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01:36:30 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81718&oldid=81711 * EnilKoder * (+225) added comment for unimplemented ideas
01:57:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * New user account
01:58:13 <arcsor5> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
02:02:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81719&oldid=81671 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+254)
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02:08:28 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81720&oldid=81467 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+91) Fixed a broken link in the "Contact him" section
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02:50:55 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81721&oldid=79111 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+97)
02:51:13 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81722&oldid=81721 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+0)
03:11:02 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81723&oldid=81717 * Grom * (+195)
03:11:23 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81724&oldid=81723 * Grom * (+1)
03:14:17 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81725&oldid=81724 * Grom * (+1) /* Properties of the Master Function */
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03:42:19 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81726&oldid=81725 * Grom * (+108)
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04:15:13 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81727&oldid=81726 * Grom * (+378)
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07:46:37 <nakilon> annual 1 April AM contest starts in 6 hours https://codeforces.com/contests/1505
07:47:07 <nakilon> I'm lazy to participate there but it's usually in esoteric languages so you might be interested
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11:12:45 <b_jonas> and SIGBOVIK 2021 conference starts in less than a day, with online video stream: http://sigbovik.org/2021/
11:21:50 <fizzie> Thanks, I would have missed it. It might not even be a ridiculous time to catch live.
12:39:59 <b_jonas> it's early in the morning I think... let me check
12:41:16 <b_jonas> ah no, it says "Starting at 6pm EDT on April 1, 2021", that's 2021-04-01 22:00Z
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12:41:35 <b_jonas> I thought it said "6pm PDT" for some reason
12:46:12 <arseniiv> oh, new SIGBOVIK! As if the previous was yesterday, time flies like an arrow
12:47:28 <arseniiv> oh, 22:00Z is pretty late for me to watch videos
12:48:08 <arseniiv> though anyway I mostly read the paper sum
12:50:22 <HackEso> thank? No such file or directory
12:57:35 <b_jonas> you can watch the video on the next day
13:53:49 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81728&oldid=81727 * Grom * (+129)
13:54:38 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81729&oldid=81728 * Grom * (-8) /* Evidence of viability */
14:00:27 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81730&oldid=81729 * Grom * (+9) /* Evidence of viability */
14:05:46 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81731&oldid=81730 * Grom * (+2) /* Formal Definition of and */
14:05:57 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81732&oldid=81731 * Grom * (-1) /* Formal Definition of and */
14:08:22 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81733&oldid=81732 * Grom * (+22) /* Formal Definition of and */
14:11:32 <nakilon> finally Ruby code goes vertical like Befunge: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/17768
14:14:03 <myname> tbh i like the basic idea
14:14:36 <myname> like, maybe not that exact syntax, but that would make mass assigns and similar more readable
14:16:15 <int-e> fungot: when will this tiresome day be over?
14:16:15 <fungot> int-e: " erik. on c, for example, it's true that in scheme
14:16:51 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81734&oldid=81733 * Grom * (+202) /* Formal Definition of and */
14:23:51 <fizzie> I should make that filter more permissive.
14:24:19 <fizzie> Nothing wrong with /* Formal Definition of 𝕄 and 𝔾 */ at least for this channel, we're very UTF-8 friendly.
14:30:17 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81735&oldid=81734 * Grom * (+174)
14:30:29 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81736&oldid=81735 * Grom * (+1) /* Evidence of viability */
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14:54:54 <drunken_lizard> Anyone have general advice for writing a Rockstar program that prints a specific message? In a totally mad and convoluted way, ofc
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16:49:54 <esowiki> [[No Literals, Gotos Only, Final Destination!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81737&oldid=60888 * Something Fawful * (+37) /* Official Implementation */ added... finally (took me long enough)
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16:51:42 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81738&oldid=81661 * Digital Hunter * (+232) /* ROT13 cipher */
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17:32:14 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81739&oldid=81736 * Grom * (+179) /* Evidence of viability */
17:33:51 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81740&oldid=81739 * Grom * (+0) /* Evidence of viability */
17:34:23 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81741&oldid=81740 * Grom * (-70) /* Evidence of viability */
17:34:31 <esowiki> [[Grain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81742&oldid=81741 * Grom * (-1) /* Evidence of viability */
17:36:29 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81743&oldid=81738 * Digital Hunter * (+66) /* Commands and keywords */ important clarification to "succeed"
17:52:45 <esowiki> [[Grain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81744&oldid=81742 * Grom * (+185) /* Evidence of viability */
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18:16:13 <esowiki> [[Intramodular Transaction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81745&oldid=74674 * Hakerh400 * (+601) Add TIO links
18:25:38 <nakilon> amazing how hard it is to find any decent public chat logs in Russian
18:26:44 <nakilon> had to parse some buggy php forum with some chat and chat-archive plugins
18:27:11 <nakilon> broken bb codes, broken closing html tags, etc. -- got 73k pairs of message in the end
18:29:15 <nakilon> broken tags: https://i.imgur.com/gl4bWhf.png broken bb: https://i.imgur.com/WtX7OHN.png
18:30:00 <nakilon> actually I have some megabytes of IRC logs somewhere on backup HDD, but I thought it would be easier to get some from the internet than to find those
18:30:59 <arseniiv> I think I’m lacking in English words to console or sympathize
18:31:33 <arseniiv> yeah something it’s way quicker to search something out there than in a mess of a file system you created :D
18:33:50 <nakilon> and all it to make another talking bot for my empty channel
18:35:28 <nakilon> I made a KiwiIRC webpage that people can open it in a browser to leave me a message but from what they write it appeared that they are stupid enough to think that when they join my chat I have to respond to them immediately
18:36:32 <nakilon> like I'm 24/7 support manager
18:36:43 <nakilon> so I'll make the bot to autorespond ..D
18:37:30 <b_jonas> also a few megabytes is probably not enough
18:37:50 <b_jonas> but good luck analyzing IRC logs, they're terrible and often full of spam and hard to understand jargon
18:37:58 <nakilon> megabytes were good; 73k is probably not enough
18:38:07 <arseniiv> nakilon: wait, do you like Q&A for them or what? Or they just say hi and expect you to hi back immediately? :o
18:38:37 <nakilon> arseniiv some mix of predefined QA and generated responses I guess
18:40:07 <nakilon> b_jonas the hard thing is grammar errors people do (
18:40:24 <arseniiv> I’m too sad this ##math isn’t so esoteric, a couple of times I joined there it wasn’t very good for my questions, IIRC
18:40:57 <nakilon> IIRC it wasn't helpful for me either
18:41:27 <nakilon> not that I can speak their language
18:41:33 <b_jonas> nakilon: that's what you get anywhere if you want instant low latency chat with people rather than carefully composed long form replies with hours of latency between users on a web forum. IRC just made sure we have that in writing, not just spoken in person and on telephone
18:41:40 <arseniiv> I wanted to ask something about rotating bunches of vectors here but remembered about ##math and now I’m mixed
18:42:12 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can't easily make a good forum whose topic is just "math", because by default it gets flooded by boring math homework questions
18:42:21 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can ask here about rotating bunches of vectors though
18:42:34 <nakilon> b_jonas for some reason average Russian chat text has 5-10 times more errors in the words that average English chat text
18:42:48 <arseniiv> chats are awesome, though one-line chats are a bit Procrustean
18:43:07 <nakilon> but the sentences are incorrect more often because of non-native speakers
18:43:19 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I know! I’m just have issues with myself spamming esoteric questions in #esoteric
18:44:08 <nakilon> one-line chat logs are easier to parse ..D
18:45:04 <nakilon> also private messaging logs are easier to build message pairs but they aren't shared publicly
18:46:14 <b_jonas> nakilon: did you really sample all the average English text chat and the average Russian text chat? there's so much of it, at least for English, most in places that I avoid, that I have no idea what the average is like
18:46:33 <arseniiv> now I wonder about Hungarian, Finnish and some other chats (do I have a poor memory on who is a native speaker of what)
18:46:51 <nakilon> b_jonas I can judge by current dialog and reddit that I read every day
18:47:06 <b_jonas> I don't know, I do very little chat in Hungarian. about one small community these days, plus some chat for dayjob
18:47:12 <nakilon> average Russian chats have mistakes in every 10th word
18:47:15 <b_jonas> nakilon: ah yes. I rarely watch reddit
18:47:27 <nakilon> Russian would write "vord" instead of "word" by 10% chance
18:47:34 <b_jonas> nakilon: do you have any guess why it has more mistakes?
18:47:55 <b_jonas> isn't it just that you select for the English chats that have less mistakes, but there are fewer choices for Russian chat?
18:48:22 <arseniiv> nakilon: reminded me how I misspelled “wave” as “vawe” many times
18:48:26 <b_jonas> I mean there's definitely a large spectrum for English too
18:48:29 <nakilon> I guess something about how the pronounciation and spelling correspond to each other
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18:49:07 <b_jonas> I often see users on English and French chat that seem to type old style SMS speech that I find hard to read
18:49:27 <b_jonas> with abbreviations that are often cryptic to me
18:49:45 <nakilon> b_jonas I read not only IT subreddits, a lot is about games
18:52:05 <nakilon> also ~10% of native Russian speakers are Ukrainian citizens and it hurts to read them today after years of ukrainization and prohibition to learn and sometimes even speak Russian
18:53:08 <b_jonas> so? English chat has a lot of non-native speakers too, with often questionable command of English
18:53:26 <nakilon> it's often obvious that someone is from Ukraine and has never had even a single lesson of Russian and in result they don't know neither of two languages because they are forced to speak one language in school but use another one at home
18:53:55 <b_jonas> sure, that happens in many places
18:55:28 <b_jonas> and yes, sometimes you can guess what native language someone speaks. it's easier in spoken text, but still often possible in written
18:56:20 <b_jonas> I used to watch a game stream by someone speaking English with the second most egregious Hungarian accent that I've heard from people who regularly speak English
18:56:34 <b_jonas> the stream is still there, I'm just less interested
18:57:15 <nakilon> no one recognizes I'm Ukrainian though
18:58:45 <nakilon> you could even recognize Belorussian by a surname but Ukrainian and Russian surnames are more mixed
18:59:27 <b_jonas> sure, some people speak English so well that it's harder to tell
19:02:10 <nakilon> there are basically only two clues: 1) how I pronounce "шо" instead of "что" ("what") -- this is how you speak Russian in Eastern Ukraine, and 2) how I pronounce the sound "г" ("gh") that is so subtle that no one spots it unless tries to
19:02:35 <arseniiv> ah btw the question is interesting, though not mine. We have an euclidean space, say of dimension 3 (the original question is just about 3) and vectors v1, …, vN and w1, …, wN;
19:02:35 <arseniiv> we are interested in value of (v1 ⋅ R(w1)) … (vN ⋅ R(wN)) for an average rotation R, i. e. we want to integrate <product> dμ(R) with respect to a Haar measure μ on SO(3) which is 1 on all of SO(3);
19:02:35 <arseniiv> I’ve written various expressions involving 3D vector operations or quaternions (IIRC Haar measure on SO(3) corresponds to an usual euclidean-induced measure on S⁴, the sphere of unit quaternions,
19:02:35 <arseniiv> which cover SO(3) doubly but that’s of no pain for this integration) but no use, the integral for even N = 1 looks unapproachable;
19:02:35 <arseniiv> for N = 1 it should be 0 (pretty obvious), for N = 2 the asker gives an empirical result (v1 ⋅ v2) (w1 ⋅ w2), and for N = 3 they claim (v1 ⋅ (v2 × v3)) (w1 ⋅ (w2 × w3));
19:02:35 <arseniiv> ⋅ is the inner product and × is a cross product; and I think we can slap a fixed orientation to the euclidean space for less worrying, as we use only SO, not O
19:03:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: can your timezone be a clue too?
19:03:26 <nakilon> also when I speak to another Ukrainian (and we have some uplifted mood, maybe after a beer) we both start speaking with much more Ukrainian accent
19:04:17 <nakilon> b_jonas only one timezone in Ukraine ..D but you can timezone Russian citizen by his vocabulary similar to how you can differ far parts of US
19:04:58 <b_jonas> nakilon: exactly, but I mean your timezone might be a clue how someone tells that you're Ukranian
19:05:13 <nakilon> though while US pronounciation may differ from state to state it's much less different between parts of Russia even though it's bigger, idk why
19:06:39 <b_jonas> nakilon: dunno, that should depend on television and radio, but I don't know much about the history
19:07:06 <nakilon> maybe US was more influence by immigration?
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19:12:45 <nakilon> "21:47:34 <b_jonas> nakilon: do you have any guess why it has more mistakes?" -- oh, maybe because mistakes aren't in roots actually but in suffixes -- you use them in Russian to change the meaning of the word while in English you rather change the order of words
19:17:11 <nakilon> for example, "server / on the server" is "сервер / на серверЕ"; my CTO always wrote "на серверИ" -- that was awful
19:23:57 <oerjan> серверИ doesn't seem to be a valid form according to wiktionary
19:24:58 <nakilon> yep, absolutely invalid word, and it's a pretty common mistake to write И instead of Е in the end
19:25:10 <arseniiv> that’s even more eye-straining than “у бабушке”
19:27:42 <arseniiv> I’m glad I almost never see that
19:28:03 <nakilon> basically when someone can't learn own language he can't learn English and I believe if you can't English you very likely can't program
19:28:38 <arseniiv> at least because good docs are in English yep
19:29:48 <arseniiv> my first major dive in English was because of Delphi 7 docs :D though that one was very shallow. Several years latter I started reading webfiction
19:31:37 <nakilon> yeah, those F1 Windows API and stdlib docs -- you was either learning from them or from nowhere
19:35:23 <nakilon> in ~1990 there were Russian books for Spectrum / BASIC, not much computer science in them but a decent start, and then the world has changed somehow; maybe because of Internet, idk
19:36:53 <nakilon> of course it's my point of view that is attached to my age
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19:49:28 <arseniiv> I think good physical books on programming and CS were pretty rare; I haven’t had one ever. Had plenty of somethings quickly becoming outdated and having not too much info, like a book on JS or a book about some interesting algorithms and data structures with Delphi code, but I wasn’t tempted to type all that code, and I think I had no internet these days so I couldn’t just download it. Ugh. So the book mostly sat on the shelf. Oh
19:49:28 <arseniiv> I was glad I now understood regexes were compilable into graphs nice to use, but anyway the presentation wasn’t the best (it always finished with a page or several of plain code), nor was the breadth, though what do I want from ~300 pages
19:52:02 <arseniiv> one needs thousands of pages and tinkering with hundreds of examples of various style to gain a versatile enough understanding, shame paper books aren’t good with this these times. A couple of topics, surely — but at least a decent slice of a discipline? noo
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19:54:18 <arseniiv> you can have a reference for a small language like Lua, and its compact standard library, but you won’t learn how to use a programming language as an instrument decently, only knowing its reference, unfortunately. You can have an elementary group theory, but no more. Something is not right in the universe :D
19:56:30 <arseniiv> though it’s well-known since long ago that human learning is pretty inefficient, of course, why do I reiterate that
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22:05:30 <fizzie> It's SIGBOVIK time, I guess. I see they've made the proceedings available already.
22:40:36 <b_jonas> oh drat, I missed some of it
22:40:57 <b_jonas> to see what talks I missed
22:42:23 <zzo38> Well, there is the report, you could still read that
22:46:33 <fizzie> I didn't see a schedule of talks, but there was a keynote from tom7 on the paper Lowestcase and Uppestcase letters: Advances in Derp Learning, and then regular talks for: Stone Tools as Palaeolithic Central Unit Processors, and Macro-driven metalanguage for writing Pyramid Scheme programs, in addition to this ongoing bird thing.
22:46:59 <fizzie> They said for fairness the keynote was selected randomly just now, so I guess they couldn't have put it in a schedule ahead of time.
22:47:18 <fizzie> I do like this model where the answers to the Q&A questions are prerecorded.
23:02:34 <fizzie> Oh no, I don't have an SSTV decoder at all.
23:10:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and he promises a longer video version of his talk too
23:10:37 <b_jonas> a director's cut or something
23:10:47 <b_jonas> which I assume will be on his youtube channel after the conference
23:11:50 <b_jonas> he also said that I got him to play shapez.io, and that took up much of his time before the conference, and I'm not sure if I should consider that a success or a failure because it means worse sigbovik talk,
23:12:37 <b_jonas> but I recommended that game two months ago, so how was I to know he'd start playing it shortly before the conference deadline. should I have warned him that it will hook him for weeks?
23:12:49 <b_jonas> I mean he's an adult, he can waste his time on his own
23:14:25 * nakilon has wasted last hours to deploy his first Ruby code onto Google Cloud Functions as a backend for the future chat bot
23:16:22 <fizzie> There were some references in the keynote video about it being ruined (or some other adjective) by the SIGBOVIK organizing committee.
23:22:15 <fizzie> This was nice. I don't know if all the papers and/or presentations were that great, but I'd kind of been missing the conference atmosphere.
23:25:21 <b_jonas> ok, the conference ended, so I'll rewind and watch the talks at the start, including tom7's
23:25:33 <b_jonas> though I think I'll want to see the full version and read the proceedings too
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23:50:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: full version of tom7's talk is out at https://www.twitch.tv/videos/971776826