←2021-04-01 2021-04-02 2021-04-03→ ↑2021 ↑all
00:16:09 <shachaf> b_jonas: Or at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLRdruqQfRk
00:16:24 <shachaf> Unless the talk is different from the video?
00:16:59 <shachaf> No, looks like the same thing.
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00:31:36 <fizzie> Heh, nice to see QSSTV managed to decode that one bit.
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00:46:41 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but I recommended that game two months ago, so how was I to know he'd start playing it shortly before the conference deadline => lol
00:51:01 <nakilon> I saw this game on Steam
00:51:13 <arseniiv> I marvel at this interconnectedness
00:51:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, I pasted the wrong thing. it's at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLRdruqQfRk
00:51:31 <nakilon> it looks repetitive
00:51:53 <nakilon> I would rather play Mindustry
00:52:25 <arseniiv> okay good morning everyone I’ll go see some dreams
00:52:38 <nakilon> same
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01:12:26 <b_jonas> nakilon: it has two nice puzzles in it, I recommended it to Tom for the puzzles specifically
01:12:48 <b_jonas> the two puzzles are at high levels, the earlier levels have to teach you all the tools that you can use to solve them
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02:52:51 <kmc> what's this about SSTV?
03:00:20 <pikhq> ^
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03:31:08 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81746&oldid=81743 * Digital Hunter * (+915) /* Example programs */ added a roman numerals program
03:33:18 <fizzie> kmc: The SIGBOVIK e-conference stream had a part where they had a slide up that just said "Is it possible to have images in an audio-only talk? (Please get your slow-scan television decoders ready.)"
03:34:00 <fizzie> Plus two more for the Q&A section. And a tune.
03:34:25 <kmc> hehe
03:34:34 <fizzie> (Not particularly exciting images, but it's the principle of the thing.)
03:34:40 <kmc> yes.
03:34:47 <kmc> what timestamp is that at
03:34:55 <fizzie> Around 01:16:15 in the https://www.twitch.tv/videos/971776826 recording.
03:35:00 <kmc> I decoded some SSTV images from HAARP once, that was neat
03:35:30 <fizzie> Googling around the topic, I learned they send SSTV images from the ISS sometimes.
03:35:56 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81747&oldid=74672 * Hakerh400 * (+2586) Add TIO links
03:35:58 <kmc> yes
03:36:14 <kmc> I've tried to receive those too, but had pretty poor results
03:36:26 <kmc> and I'm not sure why, since other people have good results with even a very modest setup
03:36:45 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81748&oldid=81747 * Hakerh400 * (-2) /* Cat */
03:37:37 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81749&oldid=81748 * Hakerh400 * (-8) /* Reverse the sequence */
03:43:07 <kmc> I'd like to actually make a contact with SSTV one day
03:44:01 <kmc> I very rarely see people using it on HF
03:44:08 <kmc> but I guess there are scheduled SSTV nets that I could try to join
03:44:25 <kmc> I also don't have a very good HF setup although I've been working on that a little
03:54:55 <kmc> the particular use of SSTV in the SIGBOVIK reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellschreiber
03:55:58 <kmc> which is closer to RTTY in application, but closer to SSTV in implementation
03:56:06 <kmc> and is old as hell and definitely esoteric
04:11:43 <pikhq> cool as hell too
04:12:18 <pikhq> some day im going to do things that are cool and esoteric again
05:46:28 <zzo38> The most recent SIGBOVIK mentions Klondike solitaire cards, and how to make the game impossible. I prefer the Algerian solitaire cards (and other games), though; not Klondike so much.
05:47:10 <zzo38> Do you prefer the Algerian solitaire cards?
05:50:26 <zzo38> I also remember once (was it SIGBOVIK?) they mentioned how to make the longest chess game.
05:55:08 <kmc> how is that?
05:56:33 <zzo38> How is what one?
06:03:11 <zzo38> One rule of chess is that if neither player can checkmate the other player after any sequence of moves even if the players cooperate to do so, then no more moves are possible and the game ends in a draw. They mentioned that there, but I had also known about it earlier, as it was used in some retro chess problems.
06:03:12 <esowiki> [[User:Largejamie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81750 * Largejamie * (+143) Created page with "Hello! I'm Jamie Large and I have the very creative username largejamie. Languages I've invented: * [[DFA-er]] * [[PDA-er]] * [[Airline food]]"
06:06:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh! I was wondering if it was fax or modem noises, I think I didn't pay attention tot he "slow-scan television decoders" thing
06:08:22 <b_jonas> so does the sound in the twitch stream actually carry enough information to decode that?
06:09:08 <b_jonas> and is this another of those formats that are designed to be transmitted through an analog telephone line, like fax and modems?
06:09:40 <b_jonas> I mean telephone line in a way that passes through the telephone exchanges
06:12:52 <b_jonas> and does it use compression like fax, or uncompressed like analog television?
06:15:11 <b_jonas> apparently it is uncompressed
06:15:23 <kmc> b_jonas: yes, it contains enough information to decode. I did it with qsstv earlier this evening
06:16:13 <zzo38> I read about slowscan, but I did not write a slowscan decoder in Farbfeld Utilities yet. (Presumably, it would acept the audio stream on stdin, given the format with the command-line arguments.)
06:17:19 <kmc> b_jonas: SSTV is primarily designed to be transmitted over analog radio links using the same bandwidth as a voice transmission, usually by connecting the encoding/decoding device (these days almost always a computer) to an analog radio using the same mode used for voice (FM or SSB)
06:18:40 <kmc> it's uncompressed and analog in nature; like fast-scan analog TV it has discrete scanlines, but is continuous in the horizontal dimension and the luma/chroma dimensions
06:22:59 <b_jonas> kmc: so not telephone lines. I see.
06:23:04 <b_jonas> thanks for the info
06:23:05 <kmc> noise or interfering signals in the radio channel will appear as static in the image
06:23:42 <kmc> you could use SSTV over a telephone line
06:23:49 <kmc> sounds like this was maybe done in the early days of SSTV
06:23:52 <kmc> > The concept of SSTV was introduced by Copthorne Macdonald[1] in 1957–58.[2] He developed the first SSTV system using an electrostatic monitor and a vidicon tube. It was deemed sufficient to use 120 lines and about 120 pixels per line to transmit a black-and-white still picture within a 3 kHz telephone channel. First live tests were performed on the 11-meter ham band – which was later given to the CB
06:23:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘of’
06:23:58 <kmc> service in the US. In the 1970s, two forms of paper printout receivers were invented by hams.
06:23:59 <b_jonas> sounds like it was made for decoding with old equipment, like analog television
06:25:00 <kmc> yes, the idea dates back to the 60s
06:25:06 <kmc> was used on old space missions
06:25:13 <kmc> though in a different form from what hams use today
06:25:34 <b_jonas> and encoded too I guess
06:26:11 <kmc> the bandwidth of a SSB transmission on ham radio is pretty much the same as that of an old school analog voice call
06:26:17 <kmc> although the noise level will typically be much higher
06:29:00 <kmc> hams use SSTV now because a) we like old stuff and b) it fits in narrow bandwidth
06:29:44 <kmc> most of the HF bands have only 50 - 500 kHz of bandwidth, which is shared among all users of that band, potentially worldwide
06:29:51 <b_jonas> as for old technology, I'm still amazed by how between 1900 and 1910, people managed to set up working transatlantic telegraphy systems used in production both on radio and on undersea cables, all before they had cathode ray tubes or modern plastics
06:30:06 <kmc> yeah it's pretty neat
06:31:05 <b_jonas> have I mentioned yet why I looked up the history about that?
06:31:06 <kmc> it's pretty fucking convenient that the earth provides a natural equivalent of bouncing signals off a satellite, in the form of the ionosphere
06:31:28 <kmc> not an exact equivalent, of course; it's very complicated to do it well
06:31:35 <kmc> but it's kind of amazing that you can do it at all
06:31:47 <b_jonas> that and the Earth manages to shield us from radition
06:31:47 <kmc> and even more amazing that people got it working at basically the dawn of the modern era
06:31:50 <kmc> yes
06:32:00 <kmc> I think these two facts are related
06:32:06 <kmc> but i'm not too good at geophysics
06:32:07 <b_jonas> probably
06:32:33 <b_jonas> or...\
06:32:40 <kmc> what's even weirder is how little HF radio is used these days
06:32:46 <kmc> it still gets a fair amount of use but like
06:32:59 <b_jonas> maybe the ionosphere is related to the lower frequencies shielding only? I don't know
06:33:24 <kmc> skywave propagation of HF is this interesting natural phenomenon that was very important for human technology for a period of less than 100 years
06:33:27 <kmc> and is much less important today
06:33:32 <kmc> but it still works and it's still fun to do!
06:34:04 <kmc> it still blows my mind that I can set up a crappy wire antenna in my backyard and exchange text messages with someone in Russia by pumping less than 100 watts of power into that wire
06:34:10 <b_jonas> sure, but most of the communication goes on the higher bandwidth channels, I think that's natural
06:34:40 <b_jonas> kmc: what distance is that? I don't know how close you are to Russia
06:34:46 <kmc> I'm in San Francisco
06:34:56 <kmc> so even the far east part of russia is far
06:34:57 <b_jonas> nice
06:35:06 <kmc> and i've managed to message someone in/near the european part
06:35:16 <kmc> yeah, modern communication satellites provide way more throughput than all of HF combined, and much more reliably
06:35:37 <kmc> though at a price
06:36:04 <kmc> b_jonas: why were you looking up the history of transatlantic telegraphy?
06:36:09 <b_jonas> that too, but a lot of data is just sent on long distance cables and then transmitted on higher frequency radio near the two ends
06:36:16 <kmc> yeah
06:36:38 <kmc> one interesting niche of renewed interest in HF radio is high frequency (heh) stock trading
06:36:44 <kmc> where latency is much more important than throughput
06:37:01 <b_jonas> kmc: https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/47171973#47171973
06:37:36 <b_jonas> I thought they use undersea cables and computers in the middle of the Atlantic for that
06:37:55 <b_jonas> but HF might make sense
06:38:24 <kmc> signals travel much slower in cables than in free space
06:38:25 <b_jonas> how do they get permission to use HF for that though?
06:38:49 <kmc> some kind of commercial radio license from the FCC and whatever other national agencies are involved
06:38:50 <b_jonas> kmc: even in optical cables?
06:39:08 <kmc> yes
06:39:33 <b_jonas> ok. because I'm quite sure that trading thing wouldn't fall into amateur radio permissions.
06:39:43 <kmc> the refractive index of glass is about 1.5
06:40:04 <b_jonas> 1.4 to 2.2, yes
06:40:04 <kmc> so light travels 1/3 slower in glass than in air
06:40:18 <kmc> (air being very close to 1)
06:40:30 <kmc> of course the skywave path is not direct, it bounces off the ionosphere
06:40:30 <b_jonas> and a bit slower because it has to bounce around the cable, right?
06:40:36 <kmc> but the fiber optic signal does a bunch of bouncing too
06:40:36 <kmc> yes
06:40:48 <kmc> and yeah, they aren't doing it on amateur HF bands
06:41:07 <kmc> there are a bunch of licensed (and some unlicensed) users of HF spectrum besides hams
06:42:16 <kmc> shortwave broadcasters, aviation, marine weather reports, emergency comms in the australian outback, government, NGOs, military, spies
06:42:56 <kmc> time signals, ionospheric research
06:43:19 <kmc> also medical, industrial, and scientific uses that have nothing to do with long distance communication
06:43:27 <kmc> such as curing the glues within plywood by heating it with RF
06:44:01 <kmc> there are a few ISM bands within shortwave frequencies for such uses, just as there's a 2.4 GHz band used by microwave ovens and WiFi
06:44:16 <kmc> i'm told you can hear some of the big chinese plywood factories from across the pacific ocean
06:44:33 <b_jonas> he
06:44:55 <kmc> oh that reminds me another interesting use of HF: over-the-horizon radar
06:46:19 <kmc> like the Russian Woodpecker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duga_radar
06:47:17 <kmc> which was a massive pain in the ass to everyone as the Russians would transmit very powerful signals on whatever frequencies they felt like
06:47:39 <kmc> with little to no regard for the internationally recognized users of those frequencies
06:53:14 <kmc> 'That leaves “turn a river in its bed” as the only element of the poem that isn't possible with technology, not only in 1911 but even today, but that one is probably a hyperbole.' <-- I don't think it's hyperbole, just an idiomatic / poetic way of describing redirecting a river through earthworks
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06:55:19 <b_jonas> perhaps
06:55:30 <kmc> 'And “You shall see and hear your cracking question hurled” because it's a stupid spark gap radio, because the reasonable kind of amplitude modulated radio telegraph transmissions were invented but not in general use yet in 1911.'
06:56:26 <b_jonas> kmc: I did later find that there was an intermediate technology between spark gap and vacuum tube
06:56:27 <kmc> spark gaps were replaced with continuous wave long before amplitude modulation became practical
06:56:41 <kmc> probably thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_alternator ?
06:57:15 <b_jonas> let me check, I know where I read about this
06:57:43 <kmc> there's one in the world that still transmits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_Day
07:00:14 <b_jonas> "https://www.navalgazing.net/Signalling-Part-2" says "Poulsen arc", which seems different
07:00:48 <kmc> huh, interesting
07:01:14 <kmc> I haven't heard about that
07:01:16 <kmc> thanks for the link
07:07:37 <b_jonas> as for new technology, I find modern power supplies impossible. it looks like you shouldn't be able to transform voltage in such tiny packages made of mostly capacitors and be more efficient than the best traditional power supplies.
07:08:33 <b_jonas> makes me wonder what magic that I thought would be impossible we'd get ubiquitious in everyday life in the next decade
07:09:02 <b_jonas> might be better batteries
07:09:16 <b_jonas> it's big business so a lot of people are working on it
07:09:51 <kmc> yeah
07:10:21 <b_jonas> could be improved nuclear power generation too
07:10:54 <b_jonas> and I mean improved compared to molten salt generators, not improved compared to the forty year old ones that we still use
07:11:49 <b_jonas> I guess even more plastics with nice properties are pretty likely
07:13:09 <b_jonas> something to replace rubber with something that doesn't start drying and cracking after a few years would be nice
07:13:52 <kmc> it's not surprising that switch mode supplies can beat for efficiency a traditional supply of transformer + linear regulator, because a linear regulator works by requiring the unregulated input voltage to always be a bit higher than the desired regulated output, and burning off the excess as heat
07:13:55 <b_jonas> or better packing padding material than styrofoam
07:14:18 <kmc> lots of people are working on making packaging material out of mycelium
07:14:24 <kmc> i think ikea started shipping some of their products that way
07:14:30 <b_jonas> kmc: but the regulators weren't linear, they already had diodes or transistors when I was young
07:14:46 <kmc> a linear regulator uses transistors
07:14:57 <b_jonas> kmc: and also of cardboard, which seems to work well in many packaging
07:15:14 <b_jonas> kmc: why is it called linear then?
07:15:18 <b_jonas> in what sense is it linear?
07:15:42 <kmc> it acts like a linear amplifier
07:16:10 <kmc> it uses the transistor in its linear regime, where changes in the output voltage are proportional to changes in the input voltage
07:16:44 <b_jonas> does it? I thought you can't do that to make direct current
07:16:57 <b_jonas> it has to use nonlinearity to make direct current from alternating current
07:17:05 <b_jonas> and make it nice and smooth
07:17:13 <kmc> you're mixing up several things here
07:17:30 <kmc> you can turn AC into DC with just diodes
07:17:38 <kmc> yes, those are nonlinear elements
07:17:38 <b_jonas> yes, nonlinear diodes
07:17:55 <kmc> but they don't give you a regulated voltage either
07:18:10 <b_jonas> yes, so there are additional elements, including capacitors
07:18:34 <kmc> right
07:19:09 <kmc> but that's still only giving you some chosen fraction of the input voltage
07:19:19 <kmc> not some arbitrary fixed voltage that is independent of the input
07:19:27 <kmc> that's what a voltage regulator does
07:19:48 <b_jonas> I see
07:19:57 <kmc> e.g. the 7805 regulator always outputs 5 volts no matter the input (within some range of course)
07:20:03 <kmc> and it's a linear, not switch mode device
07:20:30 <kmc> it wastes power equivalent to (input voltage - output voltage) * current
07:20:55 <b_jonas> burning off the excess
07:20:58 <kmc> yes
07:21:57 <b_jonas> ok, but what makes old power supplies waste power when no power is drawn off them then?
07:22:24 <kmc> hmm
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07:24:22 <kmc> well an even crappier and simpler linear regulator (shunt regulator) will do that
07:25:32 <kmc> otherwise i don't know
07:25:48 <kmc> but i should go to bed now
07:25:50 <kmc> good night
07:27:08 <b_jonas> mind you, wasting much less power isn't the only way the new power supplies are impossible
07:27:11 <b_jonas> they're also smaller
07:27:24 <b_jonas> I could expect the logic part of computers get smaller, and the memories
07:27:34 <b_jonas> but the power supply is one that I'd have predicted needs size
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07:28:20 <kmc> that relates to the frequency used for switching
07:28:54 <kmc> inductors / transformers that transmit useful amounts of power at 50/60 Hz are much larger than ones that transmit the same amount of power at dozens to hundreds of kHz
07:29:31 <b_jonas> oh yeah, in impossible things I hope they'll invent, better superconductors would be nice too
07:29:32 <kmc> with simple components you have to reduce the frequency before rectifying it
07:29:44 <kmc> er, reduce the voltage
07:30:04 <kmc> in a switching power supply you can rectify the mains voltage and then switch that to regulate it down to the desired voltage
07:30:14 <kmc> in a sense going AC -> DC -> AC -> DC
07:30:28 <kmc> it is kind of funny that this ends up being more efficient
07:30:45 <kmc> ok, going to sleep for real now :)
07:30:46 <kmc> ttyl
07:30:57 <b_jonas> bye
07:34:03 <b_jonas> oh yeah, some people predict that the new RNA vaccine technology developed for this pandemic will allow to make good vaccines for much more viral infections for which we don't have a vaccine yet
07:34:13 <b_jonas> so if that indeed works out, that might be another one
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11:30:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * A esolang user * New user account
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13:00:16 <fizzie> Hah! One of my former coauthors is cited in one of the SIGBOVIK papers.
13:00:58 <fizzie> (Specifically, citation [4] of Universal Insights with Multi-layered Embeddings.)
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13:49:11 <nakilon> fizzie what are you coauthor of?
14:14:16 <int-e> Hmm, Recursed is still hard.
14:17:19 <int-e> (Yes I know it's been shown to be Turing-hard)
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14:32:40 <fizzie> I've been involved in 5 or so more or less (leaning towards "more") uninteresting papers together with Jort Gemmeke (and others) around "conventional" (read: pre-DNN-revolution) noise-robust speech recognition.
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14:51:59 <nakilon> why uninteresting?
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15:49:04 <esowiki> [[Pyramid Scheme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81751&oldid=76346 * B jonas * (+194) /* External resources */
16:02:53 <myname> pyramid scheme is a funny idea
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17:10:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81752&oldid=81719 * A esolang user * (+274)
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19:02:48 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81753&oldid=81746 * Digital Hunter * (+321) /* Example programs */ added a kolakoski sequence program
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20:43:01 <arseniiv> @tell nakilon I was away and didn’t notice what you messaged me sorry
20:43:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:43:15 <nakilon> arseniiv no!
20:43:18 <nakilon> *np
20:43:25 <arseniiv> oops you’re online
20:44:26 <nakilon> doesn't freenode have memoserv?
20:44:39 <nakilon> yes it has
20:44:52 <arseniiv> oh, how does it work?
20:44:58 <nakilon> /memoserv help
20:47:21 <arseniiv> a bit unconventional it doesn’t use private messages
20:48:19 <arseniiv> so in result it spams the window of the currently active channel, hm
20:48:19 <nakilon> i suppose PRIVMSG is for human-to-human
20:48:46 <nakilon> depends on your client, I guess some have a preference to show NOTICEs only in a server tab
20:49:07 <arseniiv> hm maybe I misconfigured something
20:49:09 <nakilon> I actually like when things don't make you switch tabs
20:49:31 <nakilon> the stupid Lounge that I use opens the /whois results in a query window
20:53:13 <fizzie> I feel like nobody ever actually uses MemoServ.
20:53:19 <fizzie> (On freenode, anyway.)
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20:59:39 <kmc> i've never used it
20:59:43 <kmc> someone should send me a memo!
21:01:13 <arseniiv> finally I set up coloring for this thing
21:01:49 <arseniiv> at least if it won’t flash and notify it will be discernible when scrolling the chat
21:01:55 <kmc> ty arseniiv
21:02:28 <arseniiv> this is fun :D
21:02:52 <fizzie> @tell lambdabot You're being usurped.
21:02:52 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
21:03:54 <arseniiv> hm will lambdabot read a MemoServ’s message?..
21:04:33 <nakilon> I doubt
21:04:57 <arseniiv> at least it’s robust against unknown message types
21:05:03 <arseniiv> @eval 2 + 81
21:05:10 <arseniiv> or is it
21:05:39 <arseniiv> @run 2 + 81 -- eval is not the thing
21:05:41 <lambdabot> 83
21:06:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: I have used memoserv
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23:30:12 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81754&oldid=81753 * Digital Hunter * (-66) /* Commands and keywords */ reverted my "important clarification to "succeed""
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