00:12:49 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83774&oldid=83772 * Aspwil * (+549)
00:17:57 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83775&oldid=83757 * Aspwil * (-13) /* Truth machine */
00:18:08 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83776&oldid=83775 * Aspwil * (-13) /* Hello World */
00:18:18 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83777&oldid=83776 * Aspwil * (-13) /* Add 2 numbers */
00:18:31 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83778&oldid=83777 * Aspwil * (-12) /* Writing Code */
00:18:37 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83779&oldid=83778 * Aspwil * (-1) /* Writing Code */
00:19:06 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83780&oldid=83779 * Aspwil * (-40) /* First Method: Point */
00:19:20 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83781&oldid=83780 * Aspwil * (-27) /* Second Method: Vector List */
00:19:20 <esowiki> [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83782&oldid=83535 * JaydenIrwin * (-27) removed self-modifing category
00:20:23 <esowiki> [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83783&oldid=83782 * JaydenIrwin * (+27) Undo revision 83782 by [[Special:Contributions/JaydenIrwin|JaydenIrwin]] ([[User talk:JaydenIrwin|talk]])
00:34:34 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83784&oldid=83774 * Doridian * (+28) Grammar fixes, formatting fixes
00:52:54 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83785&oldid=83784 * Aspwil * (+786) /* An actual dictionary */
00:53:55 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83786&oldid=83785 * Aspwil * (-19) /* Use */
02:07:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83787&oldid=83739 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+157) /* OK */
02:33:48 <esowiki> <Guest46> I am making an esolang, but need help making a compiler
02:34:21 <esowiki> <Guest46> I really want it in python.
02:34:43 <esowiki> <Guest46> Here are the docs : https://bluefalconhd.github.io/Dragynslash/docs
02:35:06 <esowiki> <Guest46> Python is my most knowlegable langauge.
02:36:26 <esowiki> <Guest46> And the esolang is based off of Asciidots
02:37:54 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> Welp im back
02:37:59 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> accidentally reloaded
02:38:07 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> i am the Guest45 dude
02:38:15 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> making this https://bluefalconhd.github.io/Dragynslash/docs
02:38:54 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> I need help with a compiler, as I hav no idea how to compile a 2d lanaguge.
02:39:32 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> I really want it to be in python, and not use external packages except for built in ones like time and system.
02:40:36 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> hello? anyone here?
02:41:22 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> Because it is a self made esolang.
02:41:30 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> I need a compiler for output.
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02:41:57 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> well then I need help making an interpreter.
02:42:16 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> if any of you use github, here is the repo: https://github.com/BlueFalconHD/Dragynslash
02:43:00 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> Then adapt the code?
02:45:52 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> If you use github, you can help out lol
02:45:57 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> I suck at python
02:46:05 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> but it is my best langauge
02:47:46 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> Are you speaking is js
02:54:08 <esowiki> <HackEso> `hackeso, help me figure out when i first showed up in the channel pls? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:54:13 <esowiki> <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
02:56:11 <esowiki> <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
02:57:01 <esowiki> <HackEso> imode is an Innovative Multicomponent Drug Designer, afflicted by a severe case of the UPPERs.
02:58:46 <esowiki> <HackEso> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
02:59:23 <esowiki> <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
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03:01:16 <HackEso> The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
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03:07:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> <CTCP>ACTION never adapts others' code<CTCP>
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05:39:46 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83788&oldid=83786 * Aspwil * (+180) /* Interpreter */
06:20:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Airline food]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83789 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+253) Polyglot
07:09:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83790&oldid=83787 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+57)
07:12:06 <esowiki> [[Airline food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83791&oldid=82866 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+141)
07:44:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oh yeah, password change. I forgot about that.
08:17:53 <esowiki> [[Pain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83792&oldid=82994 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+2) Added a full stop and a line break near the top of the page.
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10:43:19 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> zzo38: multi-colored color indicators shown as multiple normal-sized disks only slightly overlapping would be nicer and easier to read, but indeed would be hard to fit to Nicol Bolas, the Arisen's type line now that the typeline shows "Legendary". perhaps it could only be reprinted in sets with narrower expansion symbols, not in core sets.
10:47:14 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> "<int-e> The thing is, adapting code that you don't understand is likely to just not work." then why is copying huge blocks of boilerplate from StackOverflow stereotypically popular among code monkeys?
11:13:52 <esowiki> <Taneb> Also there's reasons why code monkeys remain code monkeys
11:29:40 <esowiki> <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ [a]
11:29:40 <esowiki> <lambdabot> Expected type: a -> a
11:30:30 <esowiki> <fizzie> fungot: Do you even have a head?
11:30:30 <esowiki> <fungot> fizzie: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine! nya ha! what losers! you can walk your way across but that's the plan, so he was banished from zeal. a great disaster in zeal somehow threw me into this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind? the mystics supposedly despise you! i'm leaving!
11:30:44 <esowiki> <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
11:31:03 <esowiki> <fizzie> You can tell from all the references to Zeal.
11:32:07 <esowiki> <fizzie> There was a copy of "the script" at one of those gamefaqsy kind of places, that's what it's trained on.
11:32:40 <esowiki> <fizzie> fungot: Is he really a tricycle?
11:32:40 <esowiki> <fungot> fizzie: you! take! we find! spekkio. the master of war! i've seen all kinds of battles from here, step back, prometheus!
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12:14:46 <esowiki> <fungot> FireFly: must think of a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
12:17:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bubbles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83793&oldid=67738 * Monochromeninja * (+1109) /* Ideas */ new section
12:19:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bubbles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83794&oldid=83793 * Monochromeninja * (+43) Sorry! I forgot to add my signature
12:21:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83795&oldid=83790 * Monochromeninja * (+283) signature check
12:21:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83796&oldid=83795 * Monochromeninja * (+2) signature check
12:22:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bubbles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83797&oldid=83794 * Monochromeninja * (+81) sorry i messed up my signature AGAIN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
12:31:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83798&oldid=83796 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) No include
12:31:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83799&oldid=83798 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2)
12:33:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83800&oldid=82646 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+133) ?
12:33:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83801&oldid=83800 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) -
12:37:33 <esowiki> <river> ~200 new official baba is you levels
12:37:36 <esowiki> <river> coming soon, this month probably
12:38:25 <esowiki> <Taneb> I should probably solve the first lot, then
12:39:26 <esowiki> <river> yes it's a good game!
12:39:31 <esowiki> <river> I used hints near the end
12:39:37 <esowiki> <river> and some hints at the beginning too
12:44:07 <esowiki> <Taneb> I've been trying to do it without hints but I don't tend to be very good at puzzles
12:44:16 <esowiki> <Taneb> And then I put it down and forget everything I've learnt
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12:52:49 <esowiki> <river> I think that it is hard enough that it's more fun to occasionally used hints after giving a level a really solid try
12:53:12 <esowiki> <river> it just depends on whether you're still enjoying it or not
13:19:59 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> does Baba is You have a secret secret secret ending, or only a secret secret ending? I get confused about which games have what.
13:21:17 <esowiki> <river> I think it has only got two levels of secret ending
13:23:11 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> I have question. How do I get a esolang on the wiki when I finish making it?
13:24:11 <esowiki> <Taneb> You make an article for it
13:24:26 <esowiki> <BlueFalconHD> Are there guidlines ect.
13:24:55 <esowiki> <river> just write it up well
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14:21:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83802 * Monochromeninja * (+1368) made
14:22:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qbit * New user account
14:25:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83803&oldid=83762 * Qbit * (+157) /* Introductions */
14:35:06 <esowiki> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83804&oldid=83682 * VilgotanL * (+334) add github links
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16:09:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ResU * New user account
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16:15:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83805&oldid=83803 * ResU * (+143)
16:33:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:++Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83806 * Monochromeninja * (+211) created and asked meaning
17:17:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> Github is so lame they are not incapable to implement a CI to keep a green master in a repo with 500 contributors
17:18:05 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://github.com/github/explore/commits/main
17:20:26 <esowiki> <nakilon> to pretend in from of their own managers or whatever that they have CI they made a ./script/cibuild but still break the Github Action build
17:21:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83807&oldid=83237 * UltimateProGrammer * (+238) appreciation!
17:21:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> why am I then being surprised my local folks if such as Github make this a quality standard
17:32:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> I feel like thelounge is having some bad time on authing on libera with sasl certificate
17:32:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> switched to username+password
17:32:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> dude presses the pull request approval BEFORE asking to rebase; and calling the rebase a "Update branch" -- I even checked if it's maybe their term for that but nope, it's "Fetch upstream"
17:33:59 <esowiki> <nakilon> then I checked who is that and it's an asian girl; previous time when I had a deal with Github stuff it was an amazing idiocy about rewriting someone's library with my library source code that I mentioned before -- that time it was some black dude
17:36:26 <esowiki> <nakilon> so I assume they are hiring based on the "need of diversity" rather on checking if people are competent
17:50:40 <esowiki> <keegan> i think that's an unfair assumption to make purely from your experience
17:51:02 <esowiki> <keegan> but also github is known for trying too hard to be woke (overcorrecting for an earlier period of their corporate culture) so it may be true anyway
17:52:42 <esowiki> <keegan> these things can get a bit cringe
17:53:28 <esowiki> <keegan> one time i was on an airplane and the guy next to me noticed I was trans and started going on and on about how woke his company is, and how he made everyone put their pronouns in their email signature and stuff like that, and i should come work for him, while saying almost nothing about what the company actually does or why i would be a good fit
17:55:00 <esowiki> <keegan> https://thehardtimes.net/culture/trans-person-crosses-street-avoid-overly-supportive-liberals/
17:59:00 <esowiki> [[Pie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83808&oldid=78988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) /* Instructions */ Computational class (thanks to Monochromeninja)
18:02:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> I love how they say "we should care about everyone not only about ourselves" in their guidelines
18:03:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> and at the same time they FORCE-changed the default repo branch name for all the users
18:05:59 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83809&oldid=74118 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-141) Please delete
18:06:40 <esowiki> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83810&oldid=79353 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-223) This page should be deleted
18:10:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> their build failed even after my rebase, lol
18:12:53 <esowiki> <keegan> any kind of woke guidelines or code of conduct should not be taken at face value. they are political documents meant to support a particular ideology
18:13:08 <esowiki> <keegan> the same people who promote these documents openly gloat about not following their own rules
18:18:21 <esowiki> <keegan> i'm happy that it's not my problem anymore
18:18:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> they changed my personal preference about the default branch name without notifying me and I've lost' multiple hours guessing why things don't work; why do they think I need it at all? what if I love the "master" branch name? what if also name by dev branch "slave" and it's my kink? they used black people as slaves for centuries in US but we didn't
18:18:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> in Russia -- why should I be affected? it's not my problem...
18:20:38 <esowiki> <keegan> countries besides the USA exist?? whoa
18:22:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cerberus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83811 * Monochromeninja * (+1412) Created page with "I wrote an interpreter for this. It has a wimpmode too: [https://tio.run/##nVVNb9s4ED2bv2KqPVRqJNVOFj0YdYGiwKI@dFOgvQlCQUu0zUYiBZJCEhT57dkZUrJlZYsF1jYscfjm8c0Hye7RHbW6eY6iiG1B..."
18:23:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83812&oldid=83811 * Monochromeninja * (+106) updated my post
18:24:48 <esowiki> <zzo38> What I read, they allow you to change the default branch names individually per project and rename them. But if they did like you described, then perhaps it is too confusing what they did
18:30:09 <esowiki> <zzo38> (Which names are appropriate might depend on the project. Naming a branch "slave" is unlikely to be appropriate for most projects, but I cannot predict everything, of course.) (When you are mirroring a repository with another system, it would help to use the same branch names as the original rather than changing them to "main" or "master" (unless they already are), I think.)
18:33:31 <esowiki> <keegan> maybe we should also get rid of the word "robot" since it derives from a slavic word for "slave" / "serf"
18:34:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> the "server" word is bad too?
18:35:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> should it be "partner" or something
18:35:39 <esowiki> <sknebel> still off-topic for #esolangs
18:37:09 <esowiki> <zzo38> I think is not the good idea to get rid of the words; it doesn't help.
18:46:12 <esowiki> <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> does Baba is You have a secret secret secret ending, or only a secret secret ending? I get confused about which games have what. => oh I hope they aren’t disjoint and I wouldn’t need to replay it all from scratch to get another ending
18:46:25 <esowiki> <arseniiv> not that I’m close (I’m not)
18:47:10 <esowiki> <keegan> that is a fun game
18:47:16 <esowiki> <keegan> maybe i should play it some more
18:47:37 <esowiki> <keegan> i don't play many games but when i do it's often because they are mentioned here
18:48:17 <esowiki> <arseniiv> I think now half my games are those which were mentioned here :D
18:48:27 <esowiki> <arseniiv> or at least a third
18:50:56 <esowiki> <zzo38> I think probably none of the computer games I like to play are the ones mentioned here
18:51:25 <esowiki> <arseniiv> I was shocked when I learned today that blur filter in SVG is not a special attribute of a group or primitive, but a filter among other filters. Didn’t suspect that as Inkscape treats it a bit special and I get why — it’s very useful compared to many other filters which would often be more useful as part of a composite filter chain
18:51:52 <esowiki> <arseniiv> zzo38: but you mentioned them yourself so technically they are :)
19:00:31 <esowiki> <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, after I left the room I thought of that, yes they are mentioned on the IRC, even if I am the only one who did (well, at least some of them, not necessarily all of them are mentioned)
19:06:45 <esowiki> <zzo38> Some games I wrote by myself, although not all of them. I don't know if you liked any of the same ones or not
19:15:32 <esowiki> <river> The pokedex number is actually the old pokedex number
19:15:45 <esowiki> <river> now there is a national pokedex number which is sometimes different
19:16:35 <esowiki> <river> there may be a regional pokedex for each region with its own numbering
19:49:34 <esowiki> <nakilon> github/explore available issue labels: bug, enhancement, duplicate, invalid, question, help wanted, wont fix, india
19:50:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> no joke https://i.imgur.com/bhhMCd1.png
19:52:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tiangou]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83813 * Monochromeninja * (+777) Created page with "I wrote an interpreter for this: [https://tio.run/##nZM9b9swEIZn81ectYROLLdGNyMKEGTSUGToaHi4iOeIsUSyJIW4KPrb3ZPsQgrdLp1EnZ573/ug3I9YW/PllGWZKEGbSN55iqQg1gTlp2fAAIqw0eYV3nWs4fH..."
20:13:17 <esowiki> <zzo38> What is the new pokedex number?
20:24:12 <esowiki> <river> national pokedex number
20:24:27 <esowiki> <river> the national pokedex has a unique number for all pokemon of all generations
20:24:42 <esowiki> <river> the regional pokedex has smaller numbers but only assigned to local pokemon
20:25:17 <esowiki> <zzo38> Yes, I know of the pokedex numbers, but you mentioned a old and new pokedex numbers; what is the difference?
20:27:04 <esowiki> <river> The first divergence is national pokedex number #152 Chikorita
20:27:14 <esowiki> <river> in the Johto region pokedex this is pokemon #1
20:28:57 <esowiki> <zzo38> Yes, although I only use the global numbers myself, and the pokemon mahjong that I made up only uses the global numbers.
20:29:33 <esowiki> <river> what about regional pokemahjong which only uses regional pokemon?
20:30:12 <esowiki> <zzo38> You could play it that way too if you wanted to I suppose, although I have not thought of that, but you are correct.
20:32:28 <esowiki> <zzo38> Starting the game requires knowing the number of generations, but you could use a variant rule for the regional variant, such as treat it as one generation for the rules that care about that.
20:34:00 <esowiki> <zzo38> There are two kind of sequences possible, being numeric sequences and evolution sequences. When it is generation I only, all evolution sequences are also numeric sequences; with more generations, it might not be. (A sequence in mahjong must consist of three cards, so an evolution sequence cannot be made with Eevee. Its evolution is still relevant, but not for making sequences.)
20:50:15 <esowiki> <zzo38> Do you like pokemon mahjong game?
20:53:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spidey Zac * New user account
20:58:58 <esowiki> <river> i have never tried it
20:59:07 <esowiki> <river> i don't play mahjong
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22:10:26 <esowiki> <salpynx> I have liked mahjong and pokemon separately in the past.
22:10:46 <esowiki> <salpynx> 🀣 hurt itself in its confusion.
22:11:04 <esowiki> <HackEso> [U+1F023 MAHJONG TILE ORCHID]
22:36:47 <esowiki> <zzo38> So do I, but that doesn't necessary mean you can't play pokemon mahjong too.
22:43:49 <esowiki> [[User:OfficialCraftCGame]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83814 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+111) Created page with "The creator of several games ''(some unfinished)'' and an esoteric programming language called '''Nevermind'''."
23:01:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Maximxls * New user account
23:05:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83815&oldid=83805 * Maximxls * (+171) /* Introductions */
23:09:59 <esowiki> [[LongDick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83816&oldid=81154 * Maximxls * (+67)
23:28:10 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83817&oldid=83788 * Aspwil * (+288)
23:36:24 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83818&oldid=83781 * Aspwil * (+67)
23:40:37 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83819&oldid=83817 * Aspwil * (+74)
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00:01:45 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83820 * ResU * (+1335) Created page with "'''AEWNN''' (or '''An esolang with no name''') is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. ==Variables== There are two types of variables: letter variables and VariablesWi..."
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00:06:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83821&oldid=41030 * Monochromeninja * (+1824) /* Python interpreter */ new section
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00:14:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83822&oldid=57083 * Monochromeninja * (+445) /* Sign checking */ new section
00:18:33 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83823&oldid=83820 * ResU * (+6)
00:23:53 <esowiki> <zzo38> A reason needing writing better web browser software is that existing software is like http://catb.org/jargon/html/U/user-friendly.html (It is one thing, not all of them, of course)
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00:32:18 <esowiki> [[User:ResU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83824 * ResU * (+68) Created page with "My esolangs: [[AEWNN]] (planned to make more esolangs in the future)"
00:37:20 <esowiki> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83825&oldid=83824 * ResU * (+12)
00:51:49 <esowiki> <fizzie> I agree, those should be unordered-list bullet points instead.
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01:28:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> some trivial things you want to make for years but are lazy for no reason
01:34:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> $ ruby upload.rb empty_file
01:34:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> uploading as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
01:34:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> $ ruby upload.rb empty_file
01:34:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> file exists as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
01:35:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> finally I made a bucket to store arbitrary files under their md5
01:35:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> sure it loses the content-type but why would you download something without knowing what it is?..
01:40:02 <esowiki> <keegan> why would you use md5 for anything new in the year 2021?
01:41:40 <esowiki> <keegan> because it's extremely broken as far as cryptographic properties go, and if you don't need those properties there are better (mainly, faster) hash functions you can use
01:42:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's a hash sum of a file
01:42:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's not a password
01:42:40 <esowiki> <keegan> it's easy to generate pairs of files with the same md5 sum
01:42:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> and it's a public bucket
01:42:54 <esowiki> <keegan> this might be only a nuisance in your use case and not a security concern, but it's still easy to avoid
01:43:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's a public file storage -- what is the scenario of generating pairs of files?
01:43:38 <esowiki> <keegan> there is just no use case for which md5 is the best choice
01:43:53 <esowiki> <keegan> except legacy systems
01:44:09 <esowiki> <keegan> use sha256 and you won't need to worry about collisions (at least for the time being)
01:44:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> this is paranoidal
01:44:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> how many files you should upload to get a collision?
01:44:46 <esowiki> <keegan> only two if it's deliberate
01:44:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> this is paranoidal
01:44:56 <esowiki> <keegan> i think a generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5" and they will never upgrade to something not broken
01:45:17 <esowiki> <keegan> there's no reason to use the broken thing when non-broken things exist that are better in every way
01:45:19 <esowiki> <zzo38> I agree that you shouldn't use MD5 hashes to identify files; there are better hashes such as SHA-3
01:45:25 <esowiki> <keegan> just having md5 code in your codebase is a risk
01:45:35 <esowiki> <keegan> "oh we aren't using these for cryptographic purposes, it's fine"
01:45:37 <esowiki> <keegan> ...years later...
01:45:49 <esowiki> <nakilon> what's the reason to select custom hash function for a bucket that I will upload a thousand of files in my whole life to?
01:45:59 <esowiki> <keegan> in what way is SHA256 more "custom" than MD5
01:46:11 <esowiki> <keegan> they are both standards available in every modern hash function library
01:46:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> in what way md5 is more custom than sha256?
01:46:25 <esowiki> <keegan> you just got it in your brain that MD5 is "the" hash function
01:46:33 <esowiki> <keegan> and reveals you to be severely behind the times
01:46:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> you are angry on your own fantasies
01:46:40 <esowiki> <zzo38> Fossil uses MD5, but not to identify files. Rather, each deck ends with a Z card which has the MD5 hash of all preceding cards, and then the resulting deck is identified by the SHA-1 or SHA3-256 hash of the entire deck including the Z card.
01:46:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> fantasies that someone is stupid enough to not know about hash functions
01:47:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> angry without understanding the use case
01:47:18 <esowiki> <keegan> i've made my case and you choose not to understand it
01:47:22 <esowiki> <keegan> i'm going to eat pizza now so ttyl
01:47:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> you are just saying random trivia that is not applicable
01:48:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> wasting attention on inexisting problem
01:48:58 <esowiki> <zzo38> Some protocols require MD5, such as the HTTP auth
01:51:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> I must be using the HTTP auth because I'm from a "generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5""
01:51:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> and probably my empty bucket will be used for a Mars mission
01:52:06 <esowiki> <zzo38> Even if you are, that doesn't mean that MD5 should also be used for other purposes too
01:52:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> I agree with the "there's no valid use case for MD5 except where it's required for interoperability" case. Libraries will eventually stop offering it as a choice; that's a good enough reason to not to pick it even when the choice would be otherwise arbitrary.
01:52:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> but where did I say that I should use md5 everywhere? it's just a way I index files in my bucket that I don't even immediately use
01:54:33 <esowiki> <keegan> but why'd you choose it
01:54:38 <esowiki> <keegan> when it's known to be broken
01:54:44 <esowiki> <keegan> and you could choose something not known to be broken, with zero downside?
01:54:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> you won't be even able to make me a problem because you don't have an Upload access to the bucket
01:55:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's broken only in your fantasies
01:55:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> in fact I'll never have an issue with this bucket and script
01:55:59 <esowiki> <zzo38> MD5 hashes are also shorter than SHA-1 hashes or SHA3-256 hashes
01:56:06 <esowiki> <keegan> that may be, but there is still no reason to choose the broken thing
01:56:28 <esowiki> <nakilon> there is no more sense in chosing another hash function for my bucket than in using Pi as 3.14 and a million of digits after .
01:57:15 <esowiki> <nakilon> zzo38 and it might be a reason to use it because it's an utl to a file -- it's good when it's short
01:57:32 <esowiki> [[Typeform]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83826 * S1(210) * (+273) creating page with language idea
01:57:46 <esowiki> <zzo38> Yes, but you could shorten it by using base64 instead of hex, or something like that
01:59:09 <esowiki> <keegan> using md5 is shoddy engineering that reveals you don't really care about doing things right, even if it doesn't cause any immediate practical issue in this particular application
01:59:17 <esowiki> <keegan> if you disagree that's fine
01:59:24 <esowiki> <keegan> there's no reason for me to keep stating this
02:00:41 <esowiki> <pikhq> i mean if being short is all that matters why not crc32?
02:00:54 <esowiki> <keegan> i didn't mean to shit on your accomplishment but i guess we both got confrontational about it
02:01:09 <esowiki> <zzo38> CRC-32 is probably way too short for that, collisions are too likely even if accidentally
02:01:10 <esowiki> <keegan> well, 32 bits is short enough to worry about even accidental collisions
02:01:19 <esowiki> <pikhq> sorry, context matters
02:01:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> zzo38 the "/" char would create a folders in bucket tree for no reason; also I like how hex looks
02:02:29 <esowiki> <fizzie> I'm surprised base62 is used so little. I guess it's because you can usually find at least two more safe characters, like the URL-safe variant's _- pair.
02:02:30 <esowiki> <zzo38> nakilon: You can use a variant of base64 with different characters in use
02:03:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> zzo38 adding some custom library dependency to my script...
02:04:20 <esowiki> <keegan> it's a lot more annoying to implement when the base is not a power of 2
02:04:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> maybe my stdlib even has base64, still it's overcomplicating things for no real purpose
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02:06:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> and yes, right before starting making the script I googled the length of crc32 and md5
02:07:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> and make a choice between them
02:10:44 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hmm, maybe HackEso's `paste should have used a hash function for the file name for deduplication purposes... but then it'd have to rename the file after the fact, because it needs to (really *only*) work for non-seekable inputs.
02:10:51 <esowiki> <fizzie> I guess it's probably not worth it. There are a total of four pastes that have been pasted twice, and a single paste (unsurprisingly, the empty file) that has been pasted 7 times.
02:11:06 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think people have been cleaning up that directory every now and then though.
02:14:37 <esowiki> <zzo38> Can any newer hashing algorithms which have a secondary hash starting at a different offset and then add that hash at the end of the data when computing the primary hash? (e.g. similar to having H(X||H("0"||X)) although you can do other things such as having different parameters for the secondary hash, or adding the length differently, etc)
02:14:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> this reminds me how people love to play in an echo chamber about "regexes can't parse HTML/XML"
02:15:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> because it's easier and funnier to be in an echo chamber than learn that some regex engines support recursion and parse HTML/XLS with no issues
02:16:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> living in imaginary world where they've learned some "rules" of how things work and can't be assed to learn more
02:29:20 <esowiki> <pikhq> I'd argue said regexes are not regexes
02:29:27 <esowiki> <pikhq> because regex refers to... regular expressions
02:29:41 <esowiki> <pikhq> instead they're regex-flavored programming languages because pain :)
02:44:32 <esowiki> <keegan> it just depends on how you define the word "regex"
02:45:57 <esowiki> <keegan> there's also the question of whether you *should* try to parse HTML/XML with such grotesquely-extended regex engines even though you *can*
02:46:09 <esowiki> <keegan> but this is #esolangs so I guess the answer to that one is affirmative :)
02:46:42 <esowiki> <keegan> regardless, attempting to do anything tree-shaped with a regex is usually a sign that you're doing it wrong and should consider a different approach
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02:47:16 <esowiki> <fizzie> I don't think I've ever come across a purported XML-munching regular expression that'd deal with <![CDATA[ ... ]]>, even though it's certainly possible.
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03:02:06 <esowiki> <salpynx> computational linguists are so pedantic
03:05:18 <esowiki> <salpynx> thinking they can proscribe what regular expressions are - they should be studying how real groups of people _use_ regexes and simple describe
03:08:29 <esowiki> <salpynx> (that's (supposed) to be a joke, just in case anyone strongly disagrees, or worse, agrees)
03:08:38 <esowiki> <keegan> I wasn't totally sure ;)
03:08:52 <esowiki> <keegan> I think descriptive computer languages theory is a good idea though!
03:09:26 <esowiki> <keegan> it's definitely something people do
03:09:38 <esowiki> <keegan> take popular ad-hoc features and try to formalize them
03:10:07 <esowiki> <lambdabot> *** "proscribe" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:10:11 <esowiki> <lambdabot> v 1: command against; "I forbid you to call me late at night";
03:10:13 <esowiki> <lambdabot> "Mother vetoed the trip to the chocolate store"; "Dad nixed
03:10:15 <esowiki> <lambdabot> our plans" [syn: {forbid}, {prohibit}, {interdict},
03:10:17 <esowiki> <lambdabot> {proscribe}, {veto}, {disallow}, {nix}] [ant: {allow},
03:10:19 <esowiki> <lambdabot> {countenance}, {let}, {permit}]
03:11:34 <esowiki> <salpynx> ugh, I used the wrong word: prescribe I meant.
03:13:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> can lambdabot adjust line width?
03:13:42 <esowiki> <salpynx> It feels like there could be a joke in there. I wish I'd done it deliberately. You can't proscribe what word I use to mean x ... or something
03:13:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> needs some regexes
03:22:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> imagine that at the time you were learning programming people naming 10 random languages were not naming those that they would name today http://www.softpanorama.org/Bulletin/Humor/how_programmers_hunt_elephants.shtml
03:24:17 <esowiki> <nakilon> hm half of them sound like dbms though
03:27:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> two other lists can be found on this page http://www.softpanorama.org/Lang/programming_languages_humor.shtml
03:31:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Goglesq * New user account
03:37:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> half of text on this page is written before my birth I guess
03:45:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83827&oldid=83815 * Goglesq * (+247)
03:49:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83828&oldid=83765 * Goglesq * (+14)
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04:01:09 <esowiki> <salpynx> ? discriptive linguistics
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04:12:05 <esowiki> [[NScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83829 * Goglesq * (+1955) Created page with "NScript is a basic esoteric language designed to be at least somewhat unique. NScript has a couple nicknames by the creator: NS, NoahScript NS has plenty of flexibility and ha..."
04:35:04 <esowiki> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83830&oldid=83829 * Goglesq * (+2115)
04:37:07 <esowiki> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83831&oldid=83830 * Goglesq * (+0)
05:51:02 <esowiki> <nakilon> is it German? can anyone read it? https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu?sort=pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date&qvq=q:pub_title%3D%22Atlas%20der%20Evangelisch%20-%20Lutherischen%20Gemeinen%20in%20Russland.%20St.%20Petersburg.%20Buchdruckere
05:51:02 <esowiki> <nakilon> i%20der%20Kaiserlichen%20Akademie%20der%20Wissenschaften.%201855.%22;sort:pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=12&trs=13
05:51:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> shorter link: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu
05:56:15 <esowiki> <salpynx> I thought I recognised 'soul' in Seelenzabl -- which seems to be "soul count"
05:56:22 <esowiki> <salpynx> a religious census?
05:58:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> that's stats appendix pages to maps, it's the last page of stats and others are pages per guberniya
05:59:15 <esowiki> <nakilon> on this page I wonder what the biggest titles say
05:59:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> "souls per priest" -- interesting
06:00:24 <esowiki> <salpynx> oh, 'zahl', as in zahlen ℤ
06:06:17 <esowiki> <salpynx> Евангелическо-лютеранская церковь в России, Украине, в Казахстане и Средней Азии is a thing it seems
06:08:14 <esowiki> <salpynx> reminds me -- does Google home exist in Russia? I was yelling at my Google home in frustration trying to listen to specific Russian soundtrack music that it played to me first and I wanted to hear again
06:09:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> there should be a town Melitopol somewhere on the right page here, I can't find it: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301173~90071677:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu
06:09:38 <esowiki> <salpynx> after ages of tweaking settings I got it to correctly recognise me saying 'поход' and it was spelled correctly on screen, then it's spin a bit and convert it to some silly English word and play me random stuff based on that
06:09:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> the right side is Tavricheskaya Gubernya that is this region https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4
06:09:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> (the yellow one)
06:11:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> salpynx not sure, but Russian analogue is from Yandex, called Yandex Alisa or something -- it's a name of the voice driven assistant
06:11:37 <esowiki> <nakilon> salpynx https://yandex.ru/alice/smart-home
06:12:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e not sure what you mean, that's 1500km away
06:13:26 <esowiki> <nakilon> but if you mean the administrative division then the analogue would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland_Governorate
06:14:23 <esowiki> <nakilon> so yeah, this is the proper link to the right page : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurida_Governorate -- you see there is "Melitopolsky Uyezd (Melitopol – Мелитополь)" in wikipedia article
06:17:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's here in the middle https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301169~90071673:Die-Kolonien-in-den-Gouvernements-J
06:21:44 <esowiki> <salpynx> interesting, I have one of those JBL speakers that work with the Yandex assisant. The vague non-committal Google messages make some sense now if the Russian market is already covered. It's like they'd started trying to support it years ago but not bothered getting over the line, unlike other languages(/markets)
06:23:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e that's weird, it's the center of Melitopolsky Uyezd
06:23:28 <esowiki> <nakilon> yeah those green and red regions don't make sense to me
06:25:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> oh you mean the map author only provided stats for regions that were relevant to him?
06:25:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> I thought those are just population charts and have to include all the biggest towns
06:28:25 <esowiki> <nakilon> salpynx from some points of view it's harder for Google to compete in Russia because Yandex was the first Web Search engine, a year before Google, and all the technologies then were built in parallel but Google has no clue in Russian language so the indexing, ranking and stuff is hard for them
06:28:59 <esowiki> <nakilon> or "the first morphological search", I don't remember the details
06:29:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> companies are technologically nearly equal, Google is just bigger
06:29:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> proportionally to US economical size
06:30:06 <esowiki> <salpynx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_(virtual_assistant) has interesting comments about Russian speech recognition complexity too
06:30:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e yeah but I would sudgest those numbers to be in thousands; then 8mln would be too much for that year, yeah
06:31:23 <esowiki> <nakilon> salpynx Alisa is one of the services that is a lot ahead of Google's Assistant
06:32:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> google Assistant can set a timer and tell a weather, Alisa at that time was doing relevant jokes, sarcasm, had a mood, was learning your conversation habits, etc.
06:36:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> oh now it makes sense, int-e here is the first page of the book: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301163~90071667:Title-and-Index-Page--Atlas-der-Eva
06:37:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> interesting, the book in German was published in Peterburg
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06:48:59 <esowiki> <nakilon> salpynx basically because Yandex is much smaller it's easier to get things done; i.e. to make a prototype of such thing like Alisa it takes a team of guy with ideas, a mobile app dev, NLP guy, audio recognition guy -- they are all working within the same building and can gather for a meeting or a dinner in 5-10 minutes
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07:08:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83832&oldid=40598 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+485)
07:08:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Polyglot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83833&oldid=83832 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+1)
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07:51:45 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "<keegan> i don't play many games but when i do it's often because they are mentioned here" => yes, that helps, people here often give good recommendations
07:52:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "<arseniiv> I think now half my games are those which were mentioned here :D" => by people other than you?
07:59:33 <esowiki> <river> why dont we get about/esolangs cloaks
07:59:48 <esowiki> <river> by registering as a community
08:02:59 <esowiki> <Taneb> river: we're in the queue
08:06:32 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: one of the last steps to make the move to libera/#esolangs official will be to edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal to say "official home" again. I didn't dare to do that, but if you wish, you can now.
08:07:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> putting it in the official password of the month was a good move too
08:08:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I was considering "dvd demagnetizer" as the password, but this is better
08:09:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> the "normal" page of the map like this https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~285423~90057692# has the link "View in Georeferencerer" but then I don't see a way to get from the georeferencerer back to normal page, that is vital because it has the Export button... I opened like 100 maps via Georeferencerer map navigation and see
08:09:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> no way to now export what I need...
08:13:53 <esowiki> <HackEso> 188) <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
08:14:00 <esowiki> <HackEso> The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
09:04:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> (found it, there is a hyperlink "Website")
09:11:29 <esowiki> <myname> iirc, i learned about df here
09:11:58 <esowiki> <Taneb> Dwarf Fortress or the unix command
09:12:12 <esowiki> <HackEso> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /bin \ none 997M 0 997M 0% /dev \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib \ tmpfs 124M 0 124M 0% /tmp \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /usr \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /sbin \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib64 \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hackenv \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hac
09:12:38 <esowiki> <salpynx> I'm struggling to find a direct treatment of the orientability of a disk -- seems like it should be pretty straightforward, but the fact I can't find any clear statements about it has me confused. Everyone talks endlessly about Mobius strips and more complex objeccts
09:13:08 <esowiki> <myname> best game i ever played
09:13:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> Speaking of which:
09:13:44 <esowiki> <fizzie> 10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- The #esolangs namespace is registered to the esolangs project
09:13:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> 10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- Public contacts: int-e, fizzie
09:13:55 <esowiki> <fizzie> That's just gone through.
09:14:31 <esowiki> <fizzie> (I don't know how to *actually* manage cloaks, though, even though we now have that namespace.)
09:17:18 <esowiki> <FireFly> I think you can just ask a friendly local staffer
09:17:47 <esowiki> <Taneb> I would like an esolangs cloak
09:20:19 -!- LKoen has joined.
09:23:46 <esowiki> <fizzie> I know some projects have some kind of a policy about cloaks; I don't know what ours should be. Maybe discuss on the wiki? I'll post an update on the talk page in a minute that it's now registered.
09:24:06 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiberaCloaks "To avoid overwhelming libera.chat staff, we are only issuing cloaks in batches." Yeah, sounds like it's probably just an ask-a-staffer thing; and also makes sense to collect them into a batch rather than bother the staff one-by-one.
09:24:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> Not that I think our community is quite as populous, but still.
09:25:28 <esowiki> <fizzie> I don't know about myself, but I think my bots could do with one. Or at least fungot. If it's not "about/esolangs/...", I don't know what is.
09:25:28 <esowiki> <fungot> fizzie: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
09:26:25 <esowiki> <fungot> int-e: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... well? yes no
09:27:12 <esowiki> <FireFly> oh in order to allow for as long message lines as possible?
09:35:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, that's approximately what I'm writing up in the next window over to that initial comment. :)
09:38:25 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, I did in fact have a quick chat with him about this channel; he said he'll likely be continuing the thing of mostly reading via logs and then dropping by if there's anything particularly interesting.
09:47:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83834&oldid=83499 * Fizzie * (+2025) /* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ new section
09:55:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83835&oldid=83619 * Fizzie * (+115) /* IRC */ Insert the word "official".
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10:20:39 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> fizzie: be careful, I think the cloak would be longer than the bots' current hostname. if you want to request a cloak for them, at least consider that.
10:21:06 -!- V has joined.
10:21:23 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> yeah, int-e pointed that out too, I see it in the losg
10:22:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, it was brought up. I still think it's worth it (in terms of the length limit not being *usually* a problem), but it's a scow that you have to make such a tradeoff.
10:23:53 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> "<int-e> We shoiuld get ais523 over here." => he was here in the sense that he joined the channel on libera at least once; otherwise he generally logreads and joins only when needed
10:24:19 <esowiki> <nakilon> it should not be a problem for bot -- he doesn't see own messages
10:25:11 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> fizzie: if you want an actually shorter hostname, you may be able to get one, because unaffiliated cloaks are now shorter\
10:25:24 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> they start with user/ instead of unaffiliated/
10:25:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> I wonder if there is a bot that makes daily RSS from IRC logs
10:25:49 <esowiki> <HackEso> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S]
10:26:06 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, there's that. But these specific bots *are* so "about/esolangs", it'd be nice to keep it in.
10:26:38 <esowiki> <fizzie> "about/esolangs/bot/botname" is 19+length("botname") characters; anything I run off the wiki server would otherwise be "techne.zem.fi" (unless I want to play with the reverse DNS) which is only 13. So that's a net loss of 13, for the obvious 7-character bot names.
10:27:04 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here?
10:27:22 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> a backup set of logs might be nice
10:27:44 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> or if kspalaiologos wants to restart their logs, that could work too
10:28:22 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> fizzie: they're about esolangs, but I don't see why the irc hostmust has to say that, rather than saying that elsewhere
10:28:25 <esowiki> <nakilon> actually website hosted logs can easily have RSS format
10:29:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> for example, having 10 last days items (excluding current day that isn't yet ready)
10:29:09 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> I mean I can see some use of the hostmask for network services and IRCops for security reasons so that anyone can quickly verify that a message is from a real IRCop or service
10:30:17 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> but for just HackEso or esolangs or fungоt that's less important
10:30:34 <esowiki> <fizzie> At least fungot's current host"name" of "2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a" (22 characters) is only moderately shorter than "about/esolangs/bot/fungot" (25). I haven't asked if my ISP would be interested in delegating the relevant ip6.arpa zone, but given that they're your typical end-user/consumer/residential ISP, I feel like probably not. I've only had two ISPs so far who've been willing to do that.
10:30:34 <esowiki> <fungot> fizzie: but cyrus! are you leaving!
10:31:35 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> oh, fungоt doesn't run on the same server as esolangs and HackEso or at least a neighboring one?
10:31:55 <esowiki> <fizzie> No, I run it at home. Less mission-critical, y'see.
10:32:24 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> I don't currently have an always-on machine, but perhaps I should still make logs on my often-on home machine
10:33:04 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> I'm not willing to run any evalbot, I decided that's a security problem that I'm not willing to tackle in the near future, but just making an IRC connection with logs can work
10:33:36 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> and it may still be useful even if it's off like one day every two weeks and possibly shorter interruptions from irc server disconnects or network outages
10:34:08 <esowiki> <fizzie> Also I don't want to abuse the donated resources esolangs.org has, our hosting provider's really sponsoring the wiki rather than "everything tangentially related to the wiki".
10:34:09 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> only I don't have a fixed IP address, so I'd have to set up something to point there if I want to make the logs public
10:34:25 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> fizzie: oh! I didn't know it was donated
10:34:35 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, nobody pays for it.
10:34:58 <esowiki> <fizzie> I mean, I imagine a single tiny VPS is really a rounding error for a proper cloud provider, but still.
10:36:22 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> sure, I just didn't know it was donated
10:37:03 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> Is there like a banner thanking them on the esowiki main page or something?
10:37:06 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> I don't see one
10:37:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> It's at the bottom.
10:37:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> The tiny little ":bytemark" one.
10:37:48 <esowiki> <fizzie> And also a brief mention at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:About actually.
10:37:54 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> and it also has the new Mediawiki icon rather than the old sunflower
10:38:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> my "evalbot" costs 0$, it's within free GCP tier
10:38:36 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> oh nice, the Bytemark banner leads to a 404 page
10:38:48 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, looks like Bytemark removed those /r/... URLs, so our backlinks to their website are now 404s.
10:38:58 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, I doubt we've been generating much traffic there either.
10:40:02 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> sure, it just, you know, makes an internet host provider unprofessional when they break their links
10:40:30 <esowiki> <fizzie> I'm not 100% sure it ever worked. ;)
10:41:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> reminds me some IBM technology that our bank used... forgot how it was called
10:42:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> it was about superfast and reliable server mirroring
10:43:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> their webpage sais it's super reliable and the link "read more" just leads to a page with server error
10:43:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> Server unavailable IIRC
10:44:34 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> https://web.archive.org/web/20180119185751/https://www.bytemark.co.uk/r/esolangs says it did work at some point
10:45:49 <esowiki> <fizzie> Mhm. With a proper GA ?utm_source=... param too. I'd be interested in seeing the stats of that campaign. :)
10:47:26 <esowiki> <nakilon> damn, can't find the link
10:49:05 <esowiki> <nakilon> the technology kind of really worked but servers were failing once in few months and it needed a day to relaunch/sync it after a crash and so it was really possible that two could fail at the same time
10:49:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> but we didn't buy the third server because they costed several mln $
10:52:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's funny how things there were at the same time ridiculously expensive and unreliable
10:53:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> especially considering that if bank stops operating for several hours it loses government license
10:57:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> oh I guess I found it: "MIMIX -- Availability protects your business from downtime and data loss. Data, applications and critical system information are replicated in real ." ... https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/public/404-page-error?solution=11871
10:58:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> I mean https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/gsd/solutiondetails.do?solution=11871 -- you'll redirect
11:05:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:IRC cloaks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83836 * Fizzie * (+2290) Actually, let's just create this one as a placeholder, it's not like it costs money.
11:08:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83837&oldid=83834 * Fizzie * (-13) /* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ Fix link.
11:33:58 <esowiki> <salpynx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_g_surface says: "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the disc." That sounded interesting, but I'm so far from finding a proof or even a clear statement of how, that I'm beginning to doubt it's true. Anyone here know or can justify it?
11:34:46 <esowiki> <river> i don't know this math
11:36:03 <esowiki> <river> > Let M be a connected topological n-manifold. There are several possible definitions of what it means for M to be orientable. Some of these definitions require that M has extra structure, like being differentiable. Occasionally, n = 0 must be made into a special case. When more than one of these definitions applies to M, then M is orientable under one definition if and only if it is orientable under the others.[2][3]
11:36:05 <esowiki> <lambdabot> <hint>:1:85: error: parse error on input ‘of’
11:42:00 <esowiki> <river> > Theorem 3.2. A closed and connected surface is non-orientable if and only if it contains a M¨obius strip.
11:42:02 <esowiki> <lambdabot> <hint>:1:106: error:
11:42:02 <esowiki> <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
11:42:22 <esowiki> <river> it's a bit weird to think how a disk with boundry contains a mobius strip
11:42:49 <esowiki> <river> i guess that if you travel "off" the disk you bounce back, flipped
11:43:31 <esowiki> <river> I think the disk is equivalent to the 2d projective plane?
11:43:34 <esowiki> <salpynx> right, that's what I have been thinking, this n=o disc feels like it must be a special case, because I can prettty much follow any higher n argument, which are easy enough to find. If a disc/disk is a special case, I would have thought someone would deal with explicitly and set out what definitions and conditions apply
11:44:02 <esowiki> <river> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/308804/homeomorphism-between-real-projective-plane-and-disc
11:44:35 <esowiki> <salpynx> and that's what I though must apply, a disk must be in some sense homeomorphic to a mobius strip and the projective plane minus a point, but I can't see that
11:44:36 <esowiki> <river> maybe it's easier to understand that RP^2 is non-orientable
11:45:12 <esowiki> <river> X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points
11:45:14 <esowiki> <salpynx> sorry! with a hole!
11:45:45 <esowiki> <salpynx> mobius strip is homeomorphic to the projective plane with a hole
11:45:53 <esowiki> <river> X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points *on the boundary of D*
11:46:10 <esowiki> <river> so, this aligns with the theorem posted
11:46:15 <esowiki> <river> "contains a mobius strip"
11:46:30 <esowiki> <river> http://math.uchicago.edu/~may/REU2016/REUPapers/Zhang,Y.pdf 3.2 on pg 4
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11:46:52 <esowiki> <river> when these topologists are informally saying "a disk" I guess they mean something quite specific
11:47:09 <esowiki> <river> where the antipodal points of the boundary are identified?
11:47:27 <esowiki> <river> I can see why that is non-orientable
11:48:14 <esowiki> <river> but that detail is not stated on wikipedia
11:52:34 <esowiki> <salpynx> thanks, that paper looks interesting -- the se question has me confused with the different commentators talking about whether D is a ball of sphere, and the qn looks like it was edited at some point, but that's par for se
11:52:48 <esowiki> <river> yeah I think the original question was mistitled
11:52:50 <esowiki> <river> so they fixed that
11:54:05 <esowiki> <salpynx> Thanks for seeing the antipodal points thing, I was stuck in an unproductive search spiral, that looks like a detail that will help make some sense of what they meant
11:56:09 <esowiki> <salpynx> A mobius strip is described in various places as the most simple non-orientable surface -- a standard disk sounds more simple than that, so it didn't make sense that it was non-orientable unless there was something else going on
12:05:55 <esowiki> <salpynx> From the Zhang paper: "RP² is in essence a disk with boundary sewed diametrically."
12:06:59 <esowiki> [[NScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83838&oldid=83831 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) Categories
12:17:58 <esowiki> <salpynx> That se accepted answer does make sense now, and they are talking about a disk with a very specific boundary, which they are clear about, and that is homeomorphic to RP², and also non-orientable.
12:19:12 <esowiki> <salpynx> river: thanks! That was causing me undue mental anguish, all from taking wikipedia a bit too seriously.
12:22:08 <esowiki> <river> ideally someone should fix this on wikipedia
12:24:40 <esowiki> <salpynx> I was just trying to confirm what the correction should be "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the projective plane." seems like the correct verison
12:26:12 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83839&oldid=83823 * ResU * (+102)
12:29:27 <esowiki> <salpynx> No, that's not right, RP² is genus 1
12:30:47 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83840&oldid=83839 * ResU * (+23)
12:42:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Otesunki * New user account
12:45:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83841&oldid=83827 * Otesunki * (+202)
12:45:59 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83842&oldid=83818 * Otesunki * (+2) The demonstration for vector lists is actually kinda wonk and incorrect
12:48:20 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83843&oldid=83840 * ResU * (-29) /* Hello World */
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12:59:39 <esowiki> <salpynx> I'm going to call it here: there is no "non-orientable surface of genus zero" -- non-orientable surfaces must contain a mobius strip (genus 1) , can't find a reference, but surely a lower genus surface can't contain a higher one (otherwise it would be classified with the higher n)
13:02:13 <esowiki> <salpynx> This started off as an esolang related investigation I swear -- looking into describing a fungeoid playfield that is a n-holed torus rather than just a torus like Befunge and RASEL
13:06:04 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83844&oldid=82672 * ResU * (+90)
13:07:55 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83845&oldid=83844 * ResU * (+14) /* AEWNN */
13:22:23 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83846&oldid=83721 * Batata * (+55)
13:22:39 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83847&oldid=83846 * Batata * (+20)
13:22:48 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83848&oldid=83847 * Batata * (+1)
13:30:33 <esowiki> <Guest28> Just confirming the Libera official browser client is Kiwi chat. It is. Hope this hasn't messed up my existing kc stored settings.
13:32:44 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> Guest28: the official browser client is https://web.libera.chat/ . I think you have to set your settings again, because it's a separate instance from the one in https://kiwiirc.com/ .
13:33:09 <esowiki> <fizzie> I imagine that was in fact the desired outcome here?
13:33:28 <esowiki> <fizzie> (As in, not affecting the settings of the non-branded Kiwi.)
13:33:45 <esowiki> <fizzie> If it's client-side settings, I rather imagine the web's origin-based security model is going to enforce that anyway.
13:33:46 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> well, you could still use the one at https://kiwiirc.com/ since it handles connections to multiple networks together
13:34:47 <esowiki> <salpynx> fizzie: yes, that was me. non branded kiwi settings are fine
13:35:04 <esowiki> <fizzie> The IP was a bit of a giveaway.
13:35:20 <esowiki> <salpynx> oh yeah, that's annoying.
13:35:34 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> just saw an announcement on http://subversion.apache.org/ that their official irc presence (I don't think they are actually too much present there) is on libera now
13:35:40 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Especially since it lined up, what with length "salpynx" == length "Guest28" and consecutive quit/join.)
13:35:52 <esowiki> <salpynx> does the cloak thing help with that? Not that I'm that worries (it's too late anyway)
13:36:05 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> nice, this one is official for esolangs now
13:36:31 <esowiki> <fizzie> Android just made no channel or network official, by removing all mention of IRC from the support page.
13:36:58 <esowiki> <fizzie> (freenode's #android-dev used to be mentioned there, though really it didn't have any *other* sort of official status except for the mention.)
13:36:59 <esowiki> <salpynx> I was wondering is there any kind of semi-reasonable paranoia justified for using the kiwiiirc given all the freenet concerns about data.
13:37:30 <esowiki> <salpynx> freenode, it;s late, I need to stop and get some sleep soon
13:39:05 <esowiki> <salpynx> I am using https://kiwiirc.com/ , with the multinetwork settings etc
13:46:14 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83849&oldid=83843 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) Header level
13:49:58 <esowiki> <river> > once you're a group contact there's a channel you can get invited to and you request in there
13:50:00 <esowiki> <lambdabot> <hint>:1:86: error: parse error on input ‘in’
14:05:28 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, I got the impression that's the -community channel that got already mentioned. But I'll look into that once there's some initial list of cloaks people want. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Libera.Chat_community_and_cloaks / https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:IRC_cloaks for those who filter away the recent changes feed.
14:30:11 <esowiki> [[STACKOMP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83850 * MartinAsdf * (+15366) Created page with "Example STACKOMP program: (logo.sk) v>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>v > rstack.....v >.p..v > p >OO d v >Smpv v ^ S p<<<<< A..."
14:31:39 <esowiki> [[User:MartinAsdf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83851&oldid=72772 * MartinAsdf * (+24) added stackomp
14:39:48 <esowiki> [[User:MartinAsdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83852&oldid=83851 * MartinAsdf * (+20)
14:51:13 <esowiki> [[SIMPLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83853&oldid=65700 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+259) Acronym
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15:39:40 <esowiki> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83854&oldid=83838 * Goglesq * (+47) /* Returning data */
15:42:30 <esowiki> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83855&oldid=83854 * Goglesq * (+0) /* Variables */
15:42:59 <esowiki> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83856&oldid=83855 * Goglesq * (-151)
15:43:58 <esowiki> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83857&oldid=83856 * Goglesq * (+3) /* Variables */
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16:57:35 <esowiki> [[Tech Support Scam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83858 * CatCatDeluxe * (+3166) Created page with "Tech Support Scam is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] where it sounds vaguely like you are on a phone call with a tech support scammer. Punct..."
16:58:59 <esowiki> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83859&oldid=83468 * CatCatDeluxe * (+28)
17:46:02 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83860&oldid=83849 * ResU * (+278)
17:48:21 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83861&oldid=83860 * ResU * (+2) /* Cat program */
17:56:37 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83862&oldid=83861 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-14) /* Cat program */ Use pre tag
17:57:51 <esowiki> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83863&oldid=83862 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Cat program */ /* Quine */ Isn't this really a quine?
18:06:55 <esowiki> <zzo38> I want to make nothing up my sleeve number by sufficiently old texts, such as "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog". What other possibilities might there be?
18:15:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> Decimals extracted from famous constants (pi, e) are kind of the conventional ones, aren't they?
18:16:21 <esowiki> <river> i dont like nothing up my sleeve numbers
18:16:33 <esowiki> <fizzie> If you want to specifically make it from well-known pieces of text... hmm, the ones that come to mind first are kind of political or religious, which you might want to avoid for obvious reasons.
18:21:50 <esowiki> <fizzie> How about: "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
18:23:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> cd: not Alice I think, it doesn't have one canonical edition that you can get the text from I think
18:23:04 <esowiki> <fizzie> If you need a nothing-up-your-sleeve number for an Esolang article, something about the matrix of solidity would also work.
18:23:15 <esowiki> <b_jonas> the same is the problem with Shakespeare or Vergilius probably
18:24:41 <esowiki> <b_jonas> mathematical constants are probably better in that it's less likely that someone a few decades from now will suddenly decide that your now completely innocious text is very offensive to them and all references to it should be purged from cryptographic protocols
18:26:48 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and it's not easy to find anything old enough and widely distributed while still having one canonical version, unless it's something sacred like the Torah
18:28:14 <esowiki> <fizzie> Another nothing-up-your-sleeve source might be something that's a matter of the public record, like past Dow Jones Industrial Average values used for geohashing.
18:38:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:39:56 <esowiki> <keegan> how about the dates of eclipses
18:40:42 <esowiki> <b_jonas> keegan: the problem is that for anything involving cryptography, you need to know an exact value, not an approximate real, and it's not clear that exact numerical values of eclipses are canonical
18:41:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or that you can always round them that way and don't get eclipses that happen close to where your rounding would flip a bit
18:41:26 <esowiki> <b_jonas> also they're sort of periodical which might be bad
18:41:53 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I still the use of like fractional parts of square roots of the first primes for crypto protocols
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19:44:58 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83864&oldid=77847 * Jedgrei * (-30)
19:49:16 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83865&oldid=83864 * Jedgrei * (-169)
20:03:20 <esowiki> <oren> the old testament can be used as a number and has an established text-to-numer conversion
20:04:56 <esowiki> <fizzie> And of course doesn't fall into the "kind of political or religious" category at all.
20:06:29 <esowiki> <oren> hmm... I guess Greek also has established sufficiently-old numerical values for letters, so you could use e.g. the iliad
20:08:08 <esowiki> <keegan> tfw your cryptographic algorithm accidentally generates the true name of god
20:10:27 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oren: yes, and the greek vs hebrew numbers are mostly the same for corresponding letters too
20:10:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> Is that an Unsong reference or something?
20:16:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> is there any French on this channel?
20:19:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> n-holed torus funge field sounds crazy ..D
20:30:20 <esowiki> <keegan> fizzie: no it's vaguely a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(film)
20:32:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> hey #esoteric community. someone recommended me the "uMatrix" plugin for Firefox browser. apparently this is similar in purpose to the NoScript plugin which I'm already using, in that it lets me configure with whatlists what scripts or other fancy webshit content webpages are allowed to load. do you have any experience with this "uMatrix" plugin, and can tell me about it, especially that one non-obvious
20:32:42 <esowiki> <b_jonas> hint that will save me days of suffering if I know it in advance?
20:46:50 <esowiki> <b_jonas> looks good so far. there'll be some setup period, but that's normal for this kind of thing.
20:47:43 <esowiki> <zzo38> I have not had experience with it. Does it allow scripts and stuff to be substituted, or only blocked? What about headers? (I do have an extension to deal with headers, but making it a core part of the program dealing with sending requests and retrieving responses might be better; it can extend to any protocol and allow more to be added too.)
20:48:25 <esowiki> <nakilon> uBlock Origin FTW
20:50:53 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it seems it only lets you allow or block stuff, not substituted, except possibly for the Referer, but how it differs from noscript seems to be that you can allow/block based on the pair of the domain of the main webpage and the domain of the requested resource, rather than only based on the requested resource like noscript does. which means I can tell it to forbid the giantitp.com forum to block loading
20:50:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> any off-site images, because it's a stupid forum that lets any poster embed externally hosted images to their posts. and then I can override that for images loaded from particular domains.
20:52:03 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and on the forum, those images will still be in the document tree and show up an empty rectangle, so I can load any one image by clicking on "view image", which makes that the main webpage, and images are allowed in general for most webpages in the default config
20:52:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: as for headers, it can specifically control cookies, and has something about Referer, I don't know about other headers
20:53:48 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: the cookies are allowed or blocked based on combination of the domain of main website loaded on the tab and the domain of the nested request where the cookies would be sent
20:54:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I like it so far, but I'll of course I may encounter problems weeks into browsing with it when visiting some particular website
20:57:04 <esowiki> <zzo38> Adding the user rules of headers into the core system can also define a uniform interface for setting language, do-not-track, cookies, etc.
20:57:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> there are still a few things for which I'd like a plugin (or an option in this plugin). namely firefox has a global option where it can forbid webpages to set font faces except to the four user-controllable ones (default, serif, sans-serif, monospaced), which is nice and I use it (it doesn't *quite* work as it should, if my choice of font lacks characters it will use whatever the webpage chose as a
20:58:02 <esowiki> <zzo38> For setting cookies you might also want cookies to be allowed or blocked based on their name and/or value as well, and possibly on path, not only by the domain. You might also want to override the expiry of cookies, or possibly also the values of cookies.
20:58:04 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fallback font, but this is rarely relevant), but I'd like to be able to whitelist font faces per domain too
20:58:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> "giantitp.com forum" sounds like giant tit
20:58:31 <esowiki> <zzo38> I would like to be able to whitelist font faces per MIME type of the document that uses the fonts.
20:58:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and I'd like something like that for line-spacing too rather than font-face. a lot of webpages could be made better if the browser just ignored line-spacing declared in CSS everywhere.
20:59:48 <esowiki> <zzo38> Yes, I also; it is one of the things that my idea of "meta-CSS" would allow to do.
21:00:13 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and I know I can override the individual CSS rules, and I sometimes do that, but it would be easier to just ignore the website's idea about the font-face or line-spacing (or whatever those are actually called) property no matter how it's set
21:00:41 <esowiki> <b_jonas> now I'll visit some of my more frequently visited websites so I can set up settings for them
21:02:39 <esowiki> <zzo38> (Meta-CSS would allow to change the definition of CSS properties, including conditionally based on the selectors and other properties.)
21:03:20 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83866 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+1393) Created page with "'''Nevermind''' is a simplistic programming language made by [[User:OfficialCraftCGame|CraftCGame]] in 2021. It uses commas ('','') to separate arguments. There is no escape c..."
21:04:55 <esowiki> <b_jonas> one difficulty is that, just like noscript, if a webpage immediately redirects to another domain (usually via javascript but the principle is the same if it's a HTTP redirect), it's not easy to see what was allowed/blocked in the page that did the redirect, even though that's where you would have to change the permissions
21:04:57 <esowiki> <zzo38> Another of my idea is a nwe !priority CSS command that can only be specified by the end user (not by documents), which is another way to glboally override CSS even if !important is specified; you have to write !priority(0) or !priority(255) or whatever to set it.
21:05:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83867&oldid=83828 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+16) Added language "Nevermind" into the list
21:05:50 <esowiki> <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know of that, and a solution (when it is a HTTP redirect) could be to record the chain of redirects and other requests so that they can be viewed later.
21:06:35 <esowiki> <zzo38> (Firefox will record the requests but only if the appropriate web developer window is open.)
21:06:57 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: that's not really enough, !important already does most of what you want in that !important in user styles are higher priority than !important in page styles,
21:07:16 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83868&oldid=83866 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-8) Changed the caption text in the table at the "Functions" section
21:09:09 <esowiki> <b_jonas> hmm wait. specificity of css selectors have a total order, right? is there a way to write a selector that fakes to be more specific than almost any other selector, including id selectors, but still can match whatever I want, including all elements if I choose so? if that's possible with css, I could use that to override font-face or line-spacing on a whole webpage
21:09:15 <esowiki> <zzo38> b_jonas: That is true, although there is still the priority by how specific the selector is. Also, in some cases you might want to be lower priority than page styles instead.
21:09:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> well, except I'm not sure if it could override the style attribute of the element too
21:10:55 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83869&oldid=83868 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) /* Truth Machine */ Cats
21:16:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> use Stylebot extension to override styles
21:18:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> what I'd also like is to link multiple website domains together so they're controlled by the same rules
21:28:37 <esowiki> <zzo38> You might want to match more of the URL than just the domain, too.
21:31:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, there are some rare cases like taht
21:32:06 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I do remember a few
21:38:40 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if it's worth it to enable the `chghost` capability for the logger bot, and format those messages appropriately. Guess the question is, is the simulated "Changing hostname" QUIT-and-JOIN the canonical truth or not.
21:47:29 <esowiki> <dutch> b_jonas: (didn't read entire backlog) uMatrix is great, but unfortunately gorhill has stopped development. See https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix
21:58:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/i240ds/request_for_a_stable_umatrix_release_for_cname/g048wyk/
22:04:28 <esowiki> <HackEso> [U+2206 INCREMENT]
22:05:30 <esowiki> <ais523> a nable is conceptually an inverted delta, not an inverted increment
22:05:37 <esowiki> <ais523> so why isn't there a decrement operator in Unicode?
22:08:13 <esowiki> <ais523> int-e: I mostly follow the channel by logreading rather than idling
22:08:55 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: I find it funny that you are mostly logreading but join to use HackEso's unidecode command of all things
22:09:53 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but I understand you only did it to make a point to us
22:11:08 <esowiki> <ais523> the other way round, actually, I was using it to *discover* that point
22:11:20 <esowiki> <ais523> after going through two character map applications and discovering them to both be useless
22:11:26 <esowiki> <ais523> then I started complaining, once I learned what the reality was
22:11:41 <esowiki> <ais523> <wib_jonas> do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here? ← I believe that their tunes username is part of the URL
22:12:39 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think those two triangles are a bit weird, anyway. Because ∆ is also ∇². So they're kind of related.
22:12:49 <esowiki> <ais523> int-e: but a delta is a different codepoint entirely
22:13:09 <esowiki> <HackEso> [U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA]
22:13:25 <esowiki> <ais523> I think of a nabla as being an upside-down Greek delta
22:13:27 <esowiki> <ais523> but maybe it isn't?
22:14:03 <esowiki> <fizzie> Just to add to the confusion, ∇ is also called "del".
22:14:31 <esowiki> <ais523> anyway, the question is, I have an esolang which could plausibly use ∆ as one of the spellings of the increment operator
22:14:46 <esowiki> <ais523> should it have a corresponding spellng for the decrement operator? and if so, should it be a nabla?
22:15:16 <esowiki> <ais523> it is remarkably difficult to name an increment operator unambiguously
22:15:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think *if* you're going to use a pair, ∇∆ is that pair, and don't get delta-the-letter involved.
22:15:27 <esowiki> <ais523> I may have to resort to "+=1" and "increment"
22:16:13 <esowiki> <fizzie> gucharmap's notes say "U+2207 NABLA = backward difference; gradient, del * used for Laplacian operator (written with superscript 2)" and "U+2206 INCREMENT = Laplace operator; forward difference; symmetric difference (in set theory) * other symbols may also be used for symmetric difference".
22:16:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> I've always wondered where those extra notes are from.
22:16:56 <esowiki> <ais523> oh, I actually have a defined policy about these things, and if it also means "symmetric difference" (which is also a real function) it gets disallowed
22:17:14 <esowiki> <fizzie> (As in, are the notes also part of the Unicode standard / code charts or not.)
22:17:27 <esowiki> <ais523> that makes things much easier
22:17:43 <esowiki> <river> <int-e> also distinct from the river thing
22:17:44 <esowiki> <fizzie> Apparently they are, judging from https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2200.pdf
22:17:57 <esowiki> <fizzie> 1. (1) delta -- (a low triangular area of alluvial deposits where a river divides before entering a larger body of water; "the Mississippi River delta"; "the Nile delta")
22:18:11 <esowiki> <ais523> also, thank you for telling me what gucharmap is called, now I have an actually viable character map program :-)
22:18:13 <esowiki> <ais523> (it's still in the repos)
22:19:01 <esowiki> <HackEso> [U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+25BD WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE]
22:19:04 <esowiki> <ais523> they look subtly different in my font too, but it's very subtle
22:19:11 <esowiki> <ais523> the second one is a pixel taller, I think
22:19:13 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: I thought the Delta as used for ∇² was just a greek Delta used in this meaning. I don't really understand why there's a separate ∆ character for it, and probably wouldn't use it. but apparently I do have a glyph for the ∆ character in my font, which is odd because it still has too few of these math glyphs, I should add some more.
22:19:25 <esowiki> <fizzie> You could go with the WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE and the WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE, those don't seem to have any semantic baggage.
22:19:48 <esowiki> <ais523> well, one of my aims is for the language to be fast to program in and easy to read
22:20:04 <esowiki> <ais523> so I support a lot of possible names for the builtins, then normalize them into something that looks better
22:20:07 <esowiki> <ais523> e.g. * becoming ×
22:20:31 <esowiki> <ais523> but it seems like increment/decrement don't have any more readable and unambiguous way to write them than "increment" and "decrement"
22:21:06 <esowiki> <ais523> "+=1", "-=1" are also clear, but you have issues like "++" meaning append in some languages, or "--" being a comment marker
22:21:07 <esowiki> <HackEso> [U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA] [U+2206 INCREMENT] [U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+1F6C6 TRIANGLE WITH ROUNDED CORNERS] [U+1F702 ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR FIRE]
22:21:13 <esowiki> <ais523> and "+1" and "-1" look like integers
22:21:40 <esowiki> <ais523> maybe I should just go for "inc" and "dec", although even "dec" looks like "decimal"
22:22:22 <esowiki> <fizzie> All those five look pretty alike in my browser: https://zem.fi/tmp/tri.png
22:22:48 <esowiki> <ais523> well, they're obviously all different, but all triangles in a similar orientation
22:23:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/Gh3jd4K.png
22:23:55 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: "+=1" and "-=1" look good to me, people are already used to it because that's how you write in-place increment in python and some other languages
22:24:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> though I'd usually write " += 1" but the spaces clearly have no semantic value there
22:25:43 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hmm, interesting. When I use `scrot` to take a screenshot, it renders pixel-perfect in a "dumb" image viewer (say, sxiv), but it's very messily scaled when the same file is opened in a browser, even when the zoom level is set to 100%.
22:25:49 <esowiki> <fizzie> I'm guessing maybe scrot writes the display DPI into the PNG metadata somewhere, and then the browser tries to "correct" it for the physical size, and they disagree about that.
22:26:24 <esowiki> <ais523> b_jonas: the spacing is important in this language, it tokenizes on spaces
22:26:36 <esowiki> <ais523> and it's semi-important for a user to know where the token boundaries are
22:26:47 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but here it's between tokens
22:26:56 <esowiki> <b_jonas> spaces inside tokens are important of course, that happens in many languages
22:27:00 <esowiki> <ais523> well, increment is a single token in this language, even if it's two in Python
22:27:03 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Is there a `pdfinfo` equivalent for PNG files?)
22:27:48 <esowiki> <ais523> fizzie: `less` works for basic info, as does `file`
22:28:10 <esowiki> <ais523> apparently there's a pnginfo in the Ubuntu repositories
22:28:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> imagemagick's `identify` command says "PNG 158x41 158x41+0+0 8-bit sRGB 1389B 0.000u 0:00.000".
22:28:50 <esowiki> <ais523> huh, is sRGB there a color space or specification of which color channels exist or both?
22:29:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe exiftool? I don't know what pdfinfo does. or ImageMagick's identify with specific parameters such as -verbose to print everything.
22:29:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: is there something specific you want to extract?
22:30:17 <esowiki> <fizzie> Whether there's something encoded about the physical size / resolution. But the `pnginfo` tool from the `pngtools` package says "Resolution: 0, 0 (unit unknown)".
22:30:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> So I'm not sure why Chrome would display it scaled.
22:30:41 <esowiki> <ais523> maybe because the resolution info is invalid?
22:30:43 <esowiki> <b_jonas> if you want to see everything, I recommend (identify -verbose "$filename"; exiftool -G2 "$filename";) to see everything,
22:30:56 <esowiki> <nakilon> which file are you talking about?
22:30:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> then once you find out what you want, there's a way to restrict either of those tools to print only that one thing
22:30:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> I guess maybe it's going "hmm, this image has no specified resolution, I'm going to guess 72 dpi" and then "hmm, this resolution doesn't match the screen DPI, I must scale it to present it in the right physical size".
22:31:30 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, https://zem.fi/tmp/tri2.png in this case.
22:31:54 <esowiki> <ais523> hmm, both my Chromium and my Firefox sem to handle it correctly
22:32:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> pixelWidth: 158 pixelHeight: 41 typeIdentifier: public.png format: png formatOptions: default dpiWidth: 72.000 dpiHeight: 72.000 samplesPerPixel: 3 bitsPerSample: 8 hasAlpha: no space: RGB
22:32:25 <esowiki> <fizzie> Maybe it's a new Chrome thing. I don't think I've seen it before at home, but my work Chrome has been persistently doing something weird around those lines.
22:33:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> b_jonas: Thanks for `identify -verbose`. I tried `-h` and `--help`, and when neither provided useful output, stopped guessing.
22:33:17 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
22:33:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> Seems like I should've gone with `-help`.
22:33:32 <esowiki> <ais523> sometimes programs give useful information if you run them with no args at all
22:33:35 <esowiki> <fizzie> But single-dash long options just feel a little weird.
22:33:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> ...oh, that would have worked too.
22:33:55 <esowiki> <ais523> and there will often (but not always) be a man page, too
22:34:10 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: also in general for media files, you can also try (ffprobe -of flat -show_format -show_streams "$file";) but for a png file it's unlikely to tell anything that identify and exiftool doesn't show.
22:34:23 <esowiki> <ais523> I think my usual convention for usage information is "provide a man page, give usage information on --help or if there's an invalid argument, also give usage information if run with no arguments and that doesn't otherwise make sense for the program"
22:34:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: (identify;) without arguments works for the help, but you may have to look at HTML manuals too and even then you won't easily find all info about ImageMagick
22:35:33 <esowiki> <ais523> hmm, i initially interpreted "HTML manuals" as manuals about HTML, rather than manuals formatted using HTML
22:35:47 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: wait, I forgot an important one
22:36:00 <esowiki> <ais523> English can be so ambiguous sometimes, that's one of the reasons to create esolangs
22:36:26 <esowiki> <nakilon> width: 158 height: 41 bands: 3 format: uchar coding: none interpretation: srgb xoffset: 0 yoffset: 0 xres: 2.83465 yres: 2.83465
22:36:32 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: there was a specific tool for pngs that you can use to redo the compression or losslessly crop at block boundaries without redoing the fourier transform and quantization
22:36:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> Eyeballing the sizes (between sxiv and Chrome), I don't think it's quite "assume 72 dpi, scale to adjust to correct physical size given the 104 dpi screen density" level weird. But it's doing *something* odd.
22:36:42 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and that same library had an info tool
22:36:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/tri3.png shows both side-by-side (sxiv left, Chrome right).
22:37:35 <esowiki> <fizzie> (The left side should have no antialiasing/scaling going on.)
22:37:50 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: pngtools debian package, (pnginfo "*.png";)
22:38:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> the above outputs were from sips and vips
22:38:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> probably also won't tell you anything that exiftool doesn't, but the pngtools package is worth knowing in general
22:39:00 <esowiki> <ais523> b_jonas: why do you use "(…;)" to quote shell commands on IRC?
22:39:08 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: no, I usually omit the semicolon
22:39:14 <esowiki> <ais523> I don't think real shells need the semicolon
22:39:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but I do use parenthesis to quote shell commands often, even on irc
22:39:40 <esowiki> <b_jonas> parenthesis are nice because they work this way in both shell and cmd, so I can quote either kind of command with them
22:39:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83870&oldid=79860 * MilkyWay90 * (+199)
22:39:58 <esowiki> <ais523> although in sh-alikes it's more than just a quote, it runs the command in a new subshell
22:40:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and shell commands often have other kinds of quotes or weird characters in them
22:40:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: yes, you have to put a function header before them like f() if you want to quote the contents as a shell command
22:40:33 <esowiki> <ais523> I've taken to using «» for quoting code (including shell commands)
22:40:42 <esowiki> <ais523> although even that doesn't work for some languages, like Perl 6 and Jelly
22:41:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> that might work, but the problem with them is that there are both french-style «..» quotes and german-style »..« quotes which can make any use confusing
22:41:55 <esowiki> <b_jonas> (and yes, the french-style would technically be « .. » because they put spaces inside
22:42:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> »..« looks like a confusion sign
22:42:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> which makes it even harder to tell if it's a starting or ending quote character, there's a space on both sides)
22:43:11 <esowiki> <b_jonas> there's probably no nice way to quote any programming language, but you can often find a natural style for any particular language
22:43:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> Weird. It's just doing the wrong thing throughout. Even in the devtools inspector thing, if I look at a preview of the response, it does the bad scaling. (Okay, stands to reason it'd use the same code to render images. But still.)
22:43:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Chromium does the same.)
22:44:01 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Firefox doesn't.)
22:44:04 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: you could try to extract the image with some other tool and reencode it
22:44:15 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or is this something you want to debug to fix?
22:44:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> when I need to do a screenshot with details I drag the window to retina display
22:45:08 <esowiki> <nakilon> if I do screenshot on a usual one it's blurred
22:45:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> I mean, it has lower resolution
22:45:24 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, preferably I'd like it fixed. But I'm not sure how much effort I want to dedicate to it.
22:49:48 <esowiki> <fizzie> Looking at an entirely different image that does have a set resolution (a pretty arbitrary one, 38.98x38.58 PixelsPerCentimeter), it's being scaled too. So maybe it *is* just assuming a resolution for the first PNG (just not 72; maybe it's been upgraded to default to 96 or something) and then trying to present it with the "physical" size. But I'd really rather it just render the pixels at 1:1 size.
22:50:41 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: I think Gimp has an option to do either for its zoom levels
22:51:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: is this a standalone PNG in the tab, or inside a HTML?
22:51:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> A standalone PNG in a tab. But it does the same if I just do a minimal HTML wrapper, <body><img src="tri3.png" /></body>.
22:51:46 <esowiki> [[User:OfficialCraftCGame]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83871&oldid=83814 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+14)
22:52:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ok. I imagine the two can differ.
22:52:49 <esowiki> <fizzie> If I slap a style="image-rendering: pixelated;" on it, it still maintains the scaling, just does the nearest-neighbor thing.
22:54:20 <esowiki> <b_jonas> because HTML has its own odd rules about images that are partly inherited from multiple decade long tradition of netscape/mozilla/firefox emulating msie, then chrome or opera or safari emulating mozilla, then edge emulating everything else again etc
22:55:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and then a growing set of extensions, including this new one that lets you give multiple image sources of which the browser chooses one depending on what resolution the image will be displayed in which can depend on whether you're using a high resolution monitor that has two pixels for every traditional pixel measured in a webpage, which is a nice extension but its syntax is seriously messed up in a way
22:55:55 <esowiki> <b_jonas> you think people would have learned not to do anymore when adding features to HTML
22:57:39 <esowiki> <fizzie> Even if I render it as the page background with style="background-image: url('tri3.png');", it's still scaled. And not in Firefox. Odd.
23:00:35 <esowiki> <fizzie> And the exact same thing happens to something like https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Png_pixel_cube.png -- the image as viewed in Firefox is rendered "naturally", but the one in Chrome is scaled by... 69/64.
23:00:53 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: make sure this isn't just caused by some unusual setting or plugin that you set in those browsers
23:01:51 <esowiki> <fizzie> If it is, I don't know what setting it could be. The Chromium one definitely should be pretty vanilla.
23:02:01 <esowiki> <zzo38> Also some servers will try to force you to download the picture instead of displaying it, although I can usually force it to display it in the browser by entering a data: URI
23:02:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> My "desktop environment", on the other hand, might be more uncommon, though.
23:02:50 <esowiki> <zzo38> What desktop environment is that?
23:04:33 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, it's no specific one. It's just Xmonad as a window manager, and some bits and pieces of GTK+ thing.
23:04:36 <esowiki> <zzo38> (Also, I don't have the problem with wrong scaling on the browser)
23:04:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> what do you mean scaled by 69/64? distorted the aspect ratio?
23:05:15 <esowiki> <fizzie> No, just uniformly scaled.
23:05:26 <esowiki> <fizzie> The image itself is 64x64 pixels, but it's rendered as 69x69.
23:06:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> renders as 64 and 128 for me
23:07:13 <esowiki> <fizzie> I did a chrome://flags + "reset all" just to be sure, so it shouldn't be a manually enabled weird setting either.
23:07:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> make sure to do ctrl +/- until it says 100%
23:08:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> ctrl-0 resets to your settings default that can be different
23:08:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> It's been 100% the whole time.
23:08:58 <esowiki> <zzo38> I use a program I wrote by myself to take screenshots. (They don't have as many options as scrot, because other programs can be used for many of the things. However, one option that perhaps should be added is the option to control if the mouse cursor is captured; scrot does have that option.)
23:13:30 <esowiki> <fizzie> Just verified that it's not a PNG-specific problem. Opening a (data URI that encodes a) 222x227 pixel JPEG file renders a rectangle that's exactly 222x227 pixels in Firefox, but 239x245 in Chromium.
23:15:14 <esowiki> <fizzie> I can't believe it's intentional, I think it must be some kind of a bug. But not an obvious one to track down.
23:15:41 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83872&oldid=83867 * ResU * (+12) Added AEWNN
23:16:51 <esowiki> <fizzie> I started chromium with --force-device-scale-factor=1 and it stopped scaling.
23:16:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> So I guess you might be right in that.
23:17:02 <esowiki> <nakilon> basically retina is just doubling the resolution
23:17:15 <esowiki> <nakilon> and disables font antialiasing
23:17:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> or whatever it's called
23:17:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> It's just that, I don't think it makes sense to do scaling like that when the display depth is so close.
23:18:31 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, for now I'll just stick that flag onto my list.
23:19:08 <esowiki> <fizzie> Oh, I guess another alternative would be to just make the display resolution lie.
23:19:23 <esowiki> <fizzie> But maybe it's convenient to be actually able to approximate physical sizes in Gimp or whatnot.
23:20:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> btw, recently Chrome started showing everything smaller for me both on Windows and macOS
23:22:26 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83873&oldid=83872 * CatCatDeluxe * (+24)
23:53:50 <esowiki> [[Truth Machine (esolang)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83874 * ResU * (+587) Created page with "'''Truth Machine''' is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. [[Category:2021]][[Category:Languages]] ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Cmd !Description |- |<code>input(a..."
23:55:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * ResU * moved [[Truth Machine (esolang)]] to [[Truth Machine (language)]]
23:55:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, the GTK UI does `resolution / 96` as the scale factor, and then rounds it to the nearest 1/64th, meaning my 104/96 rounds to exactly 69/64. Or something along those lines. https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:ui/gtk/gtk_ui.cc;l=1085;drc=71ce45f2f742ca6449749a906ce5bb9948c8b555
23:55:17 <esowiki> <fizzie> It doesn't seem to have changed recently, but maybe what has changed is how universally fractional scaling factors are applied to images, or something. Because while --force-device-scale-factor=1 does solve the ugly image scaling, everything *else* does look a little smaller now than I'm used to. But maybe it's not really logically consistent to scale text and other scalable things while keeping images
23:55:38 <esowiki> <fizzie> Maybe I'll just get used to the smaller size.
00:02:45 <esowiki> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83877&oldid=83825 * ResU * (+49)
00:35:22 <esowiki> [[Truth Machine (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83878&oldid=83875 * ResU * (+133)
00:38:49 <esowiki> <nakilon> resizing glitches you say... https://files.gitter.im/5773fad8c2f0db084a20979b/YUho/image.png
00:51:18 <esowiki> <fizzie> Not that I remember, no. But any sort of confusion/bug in the init could presumably do it. The timeout isn't external, as I recall, but handled with signals in init.
00:53:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> Though the only problems with init and its configuration that I remember are the ubd padding issues, which have been sorted all the way back in ceb910f.
00:57:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> damn clever thing the guy made https://github.com/kojix2/YouPlot
00:58:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> I've been using the unicode_plot library for a while, but he made a gem with ./bin making all sorts of STDIN parsers he would want to
00:58:37 <esowiki> <nakilon> so you don't need to write ruby code to use unicode_plot lib now
01:00:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Clpb * New user account
01:00:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> he could ask to add the binary to unicode_plot gem but it would need him to make test, debate on style and the unicode_plot's maintainer idea to have API "same as in julia" for idk why
01:01:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> instead he's making the binary independently
01:02:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> btw I don't like that the common directly and name for these is ./bin because they are not necessary binary files -- would be better to have them in ./exe I guess but I didn't see such standard
01:06:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> That's what "bin" means: executables.
01:08:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83879&oldid=83841 * Clpb * (+161) Just added a short text about me so I can use the rest of the wiki
01:11:05 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://0x0.st/-_-p.txt <- a lot of non-"binary" files too. Also, a great filename, got lucky there.
01:13:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> what does that sed do?
01:13:46 <esowiki> <fizzie> Just an ad-hoc filter to get rid of all the boring cruft in "..., dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, BuildID[sha1]=d146dbe9a8ea08382b6c63ee7d0ebeb151f2ced3, for GNU/Linux 3.2.0, stripped".
01:14:04 <esowiki> <fizzie> Especially the BuildID, of course.
01:14:28 <esowiki> <nakilon> hm, for some files the file prints me too much
01:14:55 <esowiki> <fizzie> Probably a slightly different output format then. I just picked something that worked for me.
01:14:56 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/RjJc/slim
01:15:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> I guess this file just has three versions in it
01:15:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, don't have to worry about "fat" binaries on this system.
01:15:37 <esowiki> <nakilon> damn I thought this thing is gone when macOS removed the power9 support
01:16:58 <esowiki> <fizzie> In retrospect, `file --mime-type --brief` would've been an easier way to sanitize: https://0x0.st/-_-f.txt
01:17:51 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Besides, aren't you going to start getting all these x86-64/AArch64 multi-binaries next?)
01:19:44 <esowiki> <keegan> man, they really screwed up by not calling the 64-bit arm architecture "leg"
01:19:48 <esowiki> <nakilon> cd yeah I may confuse them -- didn't work with them either
01:20:09 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think "leg" was being used for something though?
01:21:34 <esowiki> <fizzie> Not exactly easy to search for with everyone writing these "cost you an ARM and a leg" pun titles.
01:22:52 <esowiki> <fizzie> Maybe there wasn't anything, or at least anything too relevant, and I just imagined it.
01:24:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> Oh, right, I think I'm thinking of that LLVM toy example that was just like an ARM subset, https://llvm.org/devmtg/2014-10/Slides/Cormack-BuildingAnLLVMBackend.pdf
01:25:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://github.com/frasercrmck/llvm-leg
01:25:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> Doesn't exactly fit the "a bigger ARM" context though.
01:25:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> StrongARM was an actual thing though.
01:27:14 <esowiki> <keegan> and "thumb" of course
01:27:35 <esowiki> <fizzie> Something something middle finger pun.
01:30:30 -!- LdDIyJhJowY has joined.
01:30:30 <LdDIyJhJowY> This is exaActly the siutuationq DXisEcFIerreit hasG found itselfq ins.t Wge HwerRe bridginYg ltoZ guarkantee a smooyth transition..d.C wigthiEn hGoursP ofr cShkangDinng the topicr tQo point Sto the neOwR chat, theyg toPok Dover oXur channekls.j
01:30:30 -!- LdDIyJhJowY has left.
01:31:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> Heh, been a while since the last piece of forwarded spam.
01:32:01 <esowiki> <fizzie> Clearly a bad siutuationq.
01:33:59 <esowiki> <pikhq> <CTCP>ACTION scratches her head<CTCP>
01:34:31 <esowiki> <Corbin> Looks like SCP-3125.
01:35:05 <esowiki> <fizzie> I can get something intelligible out of all the other words by only deleting letters, with the exception of "DXisEcFIerreit".
01:35:28 -!- xKkPIopn has joined.
01:35:28 <xKkPIopn> Andrew ULee likeKs wsuckingF hot asiarn Zguy's diAcks and has haH jcchkode hiumeseDlf.
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01:36:34 <esowiki> <fizzie> Feel free to do "brctl: ignore freenode/*" if you want to stop that from doing anything in that direction.
01:37:51 -!- QJumDgxQzK has joined.
01:37:51 -!- QJumDgxQzK has left.
01:38:13 <esowiki> <fizzie> As for "DXisEcFIerreit", maybe that's "Disc..." something. "DiscFerret"? netsplit.de says #discferret was a channel over on the other network.
01:38:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> 1 /usr/bin/ex (for architecture x86_64):Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64
01:38:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> 1 /usr/bin/ex (for architecture arm64e):Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64e
01:39:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> this is how arm looks like
01:41:38 <esowiki> <fizzie> There's been two other similarly jumbled-up nicknames joining and subsequently parting, but they've not said anything.
01:41:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> I might +q $~a over on the other side maybe.
01:42:07 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hard to say if it's likely to get any worse or not.
01:44:56 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/fCzA/slim
01:49:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> you have 10 times more ruby executables than I do lol
01:50:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> maybe they are hidden by rbenv shims
02:29:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> fungot are you going to update your esoteric language?
02:29:12 <esowiki> <fungot> nakilon: but, we are far outnumbered! that frog made the epoch, your wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
04:32:48 <esowiki> <iovoid21> ⧸!\ TΗIᏚ СНᎪNNᎬᒪ ΗAS ϺOVЕᎠ TO IᎡC․LIBΕᎡA．CHAΤ ＃HAΜᖇADІO ／︕⧵
04:32:49 <esowiki> <iovoid21> /！\ THE JΕWS ᕼΑVЕ TAKEΝ OᏙЕR FᖇEᎬNODΕ, CHATS HАVE MОᏙΕᎠ ТO ⅠRⲤ․ᒪІВЕᎡA.CᕼAT ⧸！\
04:32:50 <esowiki> <iovoid21> /!﹨ JOIⲚ ＃НᎪΜRADΙO TODΑY. TΗІS CዘАΝNΕⅬ ᕼAS ΜⲞVED ΤO IᎡС．LΙBΕᎡA．ᏟᎻΑT ＃HᎪMRΑDΙО /！\
04:32:55 <esowiki> <iovoid21> TዘΙЅ OFFIᏟІᎪLᏞⲨ EⲚᗪORSEⅮ MΕSSAᏀᎬ ᎳᎪS ⲂᖇⲞUԌΗТ ᎢO YⲞU BY ᏞIBEᖇᎪ․ϹᕼAᎢ STAᖴᖴ
04:33:48 <esowiki> <dioxide> ∕!\ TⲎΙЅ CHΑNNΕL ΗAS ϺОVEᗪ ᎢO IRC．LΙBEᏒA.CHAΤ ＃HAᎷᎡΑDΙO /!⧹
04:45:13 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83880&oldid=83869 * Bangyen * (+103)
04:45:26 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83881&oldid=83880 * Bangyen * (-2)
04:56:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> just noticed, Chrome added features to "autodelete cookies after you close specific website" and "fully disallow cookies on specific websites [including third-party cookies]"
04:56:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> added FB and IG there instantly
05:29:37 <esowiki> <zzo38> In C, can I prevent global variables that I am not using from taking up memory?
05:30:12 <esowiki> <keegan> the linker should remove unused stuff
05:30:18 <esowiki> <keegan> not sure if that requries -fdata-sections
05:30:19 <esowiki> <zzo38> (without dynamic allocation)
05:30:45 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83882 * Salpynx * (+4173) document lofty goals for a fungeoid playing with dimensionality
05:30:45 <esowiki> <ais523> zzo38: global variables in C are statically allocated, so the memory for them will be reserved right from the start of the program
05:30:49 <esowiki> <zzo38> Actually I mean it might not be known until run time, and sometimes the variables might be used only for part of the execution and then it is finished with it, or it doesn't need it at the start but does use it later
05:31:20 <esowiki> <ais523> however, if they're on a page that's all zeroes, most OSes won't actually allocate the page until you assign to one of them, so only the address space is allocated, not the physical memory
05:31:33 <esowiki> <keegan> if you are on a system with virtual memory, yes
05:31:55 <esowiki> <zzo38> Well, I am using Linux so I think that it does have virtual memory
05:31:58 <esowiki> <keegan> if you're programming a microcontroller then that doesn't help
05:31:59 <esowiki> <ais523> I think most systems that have an OS also have virtual memory nowadays, although of course that wasn't historically always the case
05:32:15 <esowiki> <keegan> that depends how you define an "OS"
05:32:27 <esowiki> <ais523> on a microcontroller you normally care more about peak memory usage than anything, so it's usual to statically allocate everything so that you know how much is available
05:32:40 <esowiki> <zzo38> Is it possible to specify what page to use for each group of variables, and then to cancel a page once it is no longer in use?
05:32:45 <esowiki> <ais523> and if it's too much, figure out which variables aren't being used simultaneously and union them
05:32:49 <esowiki> <keegan> i'm not sure I've *ever* used malloc in all my microcontroller programming
05:33:08 <esowiki> <ais523> zzo38: not in a standard or portable way, both are possible in Linux (and probably other OSes) via system-specific mechanisms
05:34:08 <esowiki> <keegan> in GCC you can specify the section for each variable, and then you can use a linker script to put all those variables together and align them to a page
05:34:15 <esowiki> <keegan> and then use madvise(MADV_DONTNEED)
05:34:15 <esowiki> <ais523> I guess putting them all in a big structure that's alignas() the page size would be one way to approximate it in (modern) standard C, although you would have to know what the page size was
05:34:30 <esowiki> <ais523> but using a linker script would be the more normal way
05:34:43 <esowiki> <keegan> on a symbol derived from the section load address (which the linker script can also give you)
05:35:52 <esowiki> <ais523> MADV_FREE is possibly better than MADV_DONTNEED for this, it's a kind of "lazy" MADV_DONTNEED that delays the free until memory pressure occurs (or you unfree the pages by writing to them again)
05:36:40 <esowiki> <ais523> although, this seems like the sort of thing that if you were heavily using it for performance, ideally the kernel API wouldn't require system calls
05:37:44 <esowiki> <ais523> if there's no need to do something synchronously, you can imagine having a userspace buffer of "unimportant system calls" that the kernel reads when the process's timeslice starts/ends (not sure which timing would be better)
05:37:50 <esowiki> <ais523> and runs them then, to save on context switches
05:38:01 <esowiki> <ais523> I don't think anything like that exists yet, but it should
05:38:35 <esowiki> <zzo38> For example, the hash tables are only needed during class loading, and the variables dealing with sounds are only needed if sounds are enabled
05:39:13 <esowiki> <ais523> zzo38: if you're looking for a more standard mechanism, you can make the global variables pointers to dynamically allocated memory, allowing you to allocate the memory only when needed and free it after you're done
05:39:59 <esowiki> <zzo38> Yes, I know, but I wanted to know if there is a way to do without dynamic memory, too
05:40:02 <esowiki> <ais523> although, in practice, most mallocs will never return memory to the OS (until the program ends), rather recycling it for use in future allocations, except when dealing with very large allocations
05:41:15 <esowiki> <keegan> I've heard proposals to make all system calls asynchronous based on request / completion queues
05:41:21 <esowiki> <keegan> not sure if that was ever implemented in linux
05:41:38 <esowiki> <ais523> I think that in order to make a general-purpose malloc that did habitually return almost all the memory, you'd need some sort of GC that could move objects around and update the pointers to them, otherwise memory fragmentation would become too large an issue
05:41:40 <esowiki> <ais523> keegan: I like that
05:42:21 <esowiki> <keegan> except I guess you still want something like a synchronous system call that's just "wait for the next event"
05:42:23 <esowiki> <ais523> I've actually been wondering about how far you could go in terms of implementing system calls in userspace
05:42:32 <esowiki> <keegan> (which could be a syscall completion or a timer or an I/O event)
05:42:40 <esowiki> <ais523> and yes, you need one blocking call, which would basically be a hyper-general select-alike
05:47:33 <esowiki> <zzo38> You can't move objects around with malloc though; you will need realloc for such a thing, I think. (I don't know what implementations of realloc will do that well enough, though.)
05:47:37 <esowiki> <ais523> when looking into the "world's fastest fizzbuzz" thing I was wondering whether it might be possible to implement pipes using shared memory, so that the kernel normally wouldn't need to be involved
05:48:13 <esowiki> <ais523> zzo38: well, we're assuming that the malloc implementation wants to move them, the problem is that the program that allocated the objects typically won't be able to handle them unexpectedly moving
05:48:36 <esowiki> <ais523> so you'd probably need to use something that was able to trace all the pointers to the objects (even in registers) to be able to update them
05:49:11 <esowiki> <ais523> esoidea: a "conservative" Boehm-GC-like GC, but which actually compacts objects in memory, and just updates anything in the address space that looks like a pointer
05:49:27 <esowiki> <ais523> this would lead to random bits of memory corruption, but the program would probably still run
05:49:41 <esowiki> <ais523> and you could probably work around it by programming defensively
05:51:33 <esowiki> <zzo38> The OASYS text adventure VM will set all references to an object to null when the object is freed, although it doesn't move around objects in memory (but doing so wouldn't be prohibited by the definition of the VM, as long as it looks in local variables and stack also; doing so would require keeping track of the types of values in the stack)
05:52:08 <esowiki> <ais523> I think compilers should generate metadata with programs that allow all the types of values in the stack and heap to be calculated via tracing pointers
05:52:18 <esowiki> <ais523> they're pretty much doing that anyway at the moment, to generate debug info
05:52:27 <esowiki> <ais523> and it would be useful for precise garbage collection and compaction
05:56:07 <esowiki> <keegan> I know there's been a lot of design work on adding GC hooks to Rust
05:56:29 <esowiki> <keegan> because they don't want to add a GC to the language implementation itself, but want to make it possible for third party libraries to implement GCs that integrate nicely
05:56:33 <esowiki> <keegan> it's a fairly tricky problem
05:57:13 <esowiki> <keegan> btw that kind of metadata is also used for another purpose: stack unwinding for exceptions
05:57:26 <esowiki> <ais523> although, I'm not as sure that that's necessary
05:57:46 <esowiki> <ais523> I had a great idea to save executable size, which is to determine the stack unwind rules via static analysis of the executable
05:58:06 <esowiki> <ais523> and to make small adjustments to opcodes in order to ensure that the analysis would produce the right result
05:58:13 <esowiki> <ais523> (and to mark things like catch blocks)
05:58:31 <esowiki> <keegan> well you can definitely implement exception semantics without stack unwinding, by transforming to a sum type. but it loses performance in the non-exceptional case
05:58:33 <esowiki> <ais523> at least in x86, lots of asm instructions have multiple possible encodings, which let you put that sort of metadata there
05:58:36 <esowiki> <keegan> now that's an interesting idea
05:59:04 <esowiki> <keegan> the idea of "constrain your compiler output so it's statically analyzable" also shows up in other places
05:59:15 <esowiki> <keegan> like various sandboxing schemes
05:59:32 <esowiki> <keegan> Google's NaCl and other stuff
05:59:47 <esowiki> <keegan> running untrusted native code by checking that it conforms to a restricted subset that has statically analyzable control flow
05:59:56 <esowiki> <ais523> most notably, mov register, register has a spare bit, and the REX prefix is very common and has a spare bit (rex.x) in the majority of places it's used
06:01:35 <esowiki> <ais523> int-e: in both these locations, the two commands are specced as equivalent, so Intel/AMD couldn't break the equivalence in a future processor revision without breaking existing programs
06:02:20 <esowiki> <ais523> so the only issue would be if you wanted to use the spare bits for two different purposes, and I think it'd be up to the executable format to decide which meaning it wanted
06:02:27 <esowiki> <zzo38> There are VM codes for such statically analyzable with sandboxing too, though
06:03:02 <esowiki> <ais523> shachaf: this seems unlikely to happen in practice, because the spare bits are a consequence of making the encodings orthogonal
06:03:20 <esowiki> <ais523> so the reason they're there in the first place is because it was more performant to do that than to give them a meaning
06:03:44 <esowiki> <ais523> int-e: well, the amount of information you need for unwind, that isn't in the code already, is basically zero
06:04:04 <esowiki> <ais523> oh, with GC it'd be way worse, you probably wouldn't have enough for that
06:04:07 <esowiki> <ais523> I was just thinking about unwinding
06:04:39 <esowiki> <zzo38> Although, some VM codes are not statically analyzable, but that will only mean that JIT is difficult; depending on the specific VM codes, stuff such as moving around objects automatically might still be possible
06:06:19 <esowiki> <ais523> well, a decently accurate algorithm for unwinding on a caller-cleans ABI looks something like "run through the program, executing only unconditional jumps, pushes/pops, returns, and anything that mentions the stack pointer"
06:07:20 <esowiki> <ais523> the only common operation that misses is spills
06:08:10 <esowiki> <zzo38> I don't know if it will work unless the program is written in that way, in which case it will work.
06:08:40 <esowiki> <ais523> and I was thinking about this in combination with an ABI where spills were noticeably different from "regular" local variable access (accessing a different part of memory, so that local variable out-of-bounds wouldn't overwrite spilled data)
06:09:31 <esowiki> <ais523> fwiw, nowadays I think of function calls and returns as a spill of the instruction pointer, it seems to map perfectly into the normal register spilling in the function prolog/epilog
06:10:04 <esowiki> <ais523> the calling function doesn't get to use the instruction pointer because the called function needs to use it, so you have to spill it
06:11:30 <esowiki> <ais523> yes, but you need to spill the register in order to make more than one call
06:12:07 <esowiki> <ais523> actually, modern x86 does that too, but only for userspace→kernelspace `syscall`s
06:12:40 <esowiki> <ais523> (I think the reason is that is that it saves you from needing to figure out which stack you're using and what's allowed to access it)
06:13:25 <esowiki> <ais523> this is why syscalls on Linux clobber two registers, incidentally, it's because those registers were used to spill IP and flags during the syscall process
06:14:01 <esowiki> <ais523> it's call-preserved for obvious reasons, thus it must be technically owned by the caller
06:14:23 <esowiki> <ais523> (although of course the callee can use it for other things temporarily as long as it restores the value)
06:16:34 <esowiki> <ais523> I guess one benefit of using a link register is that it means that the processor doesn't have to understand the stack at the hardware level
06:16:48 <esowiki> <ais523> although, I think hardware-accelerated stacks make a lot of sense for all but the very simplest processors
06:17:55 <esowiki> <ais523> I think both Intel and AMD have a separate predictor in the hardware whose job is to predict the value of %rsp, that runs ahead of the main predictors
06:18:22 <esowiki> <ais523> and they also have an internal stack that stores the addresses of the last few unreturned call instructions to be executed
06:18:30 <esowiki> <ais523> which is used to predict where a return instruction goes
06:18:50 <esowiki> <ais523> (but the value needs to be read from memory anyway, just in case someone modified the stack in between the call and return)
06:19:34 <esowiki> <ais523> IIRC something related to Spectre/Meltdown meant that there was some scenario in which you had to intentionally overflow that stack for security reasons
06:19:59 <esowiki> <ais523> in order to overwrite any value an attacker might have put in there (which might cause speculative execution to something that shouldn't be speculatively executed)
06:22:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83883&oldid=83799 * Otesunki * (+1810) testing tables
06:23:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83884&oldid=83883 * Otesunki * (-2) fix
06:27:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83885&oldid=83884 * Otesunki * (-2)
06:27:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83886&oldid=83885 * Otesunki * (+17)
06:28:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83887&oldid=83886 * Otesunki * (-1823)
06:33:22 <esowiki> [[RAMDISP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83888 * Otesunki * (+2006) Inital Commit
06:37:09 <esowiki> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83889&oldid=83888 * Otesunki * (+513)
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07:32:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> that's what unicode is for
07:33:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> to avoid spamfilters
07:38:35 <esowiki> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83890&oldid=83889 * Otesunki * (+9)
07:41:09 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: well those are some scary eso-ideas
07:47:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: on the practical side, the big advantage of Linux and C ecosystem is that most of the libraries are compiled in a way that has a fixed ABI and you'll be able to use the same binary without recompiling forever. (the rust guys are trying to work hard to break this, though perhaps that'll change in the future like on MSVC, but even in a rust library you could add a definite C ABI interface that you
07:47:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> export and then import with another smaller rust "header" library that you do have to recompile.) that makes it hard to try to do something like that garbage collection that requires every piece of code in your executable to adhere to some new ABI convention like that unwinding markings.
07:49:59 <esowiki> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83891&oldid=83890 * Otesunki * (+44)
07:50:50 <esowiki> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83892&oldid=83891 * Otesunki * (-2) /* Instructions */
07:51:24 <esowiki> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83893&oldid=83892 * Otesunki * (-16) /* Instructions */
07:57:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I consider this assuming benevolence: let's say that rust doesn't have a stable ABI yet because it's a young language and they don't want to commit themselves to a bad ABI while the language is still evolving, because they might regret that later.
07:57:17 <esowiki> [[User talk:Bangyen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83894 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+83) Created page with "whoa i've only made this wiki today and ppl made interpreters/compilers for it wow."
07:57:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83895&oldid=83894 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-83) Blanked the page
07:58:35 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so for now, if you really want a fixed ABI, you have to explicitly define and export a C ABI, and import it from another crate. sort of like what you could do to have a binary that you don't have to recompile for a C++ library in Windows MSVC, back when MSVC broke the C++ ABI more often. though the situation isn't quite analogous to C++, so don't try to take that metaphor too far.
07:59:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> wow that Bangyen dude implemented >30 interpreters
07:59:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and yes, I do sometimes say that rust is to C++ as zig is to C, but rust crates which are relevant here are one of the things that really break this analogy
07:59:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: you mean some people in #esoteric do weird and apparently useless things with computers?
08:04:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> I should make one more useless thing
08:04:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> a translator between all the brainfuck derivatives
08:11:19 <esowiki> <nakilon> while downloading maps from davidrumsey.com it's so interesting to explore how town that know had different names during being settled by different people
08:13:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> for example, the first known town names in Crimea were given by Greeks, Evpatoria was known as Kerkinitida, then it was renamed to Gezlev idk by whom, maybe tatars that were owners of it for most of the time
08:14:17 <esowiki> <nakilon> Sebastopol, Simferopol, Melitopol -- the "-opol" is from greek
08:15:23 <esowiki> <nakilon> then Russian names were changing sometimes during the Russian Empire
08:17:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> then seas also have multiple names because they are named by explorers from everywhee
08:19:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> and that German regions that int-e helped me understand the map about -- I didn't know they existed, and some towns there really had German names
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08:56:54 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83896&oldid=83882 * Salpynx * (+43) /* Program Commands */ grow / shrink in terms of w
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09:08:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> I could do the usual "add a non-breaking space" thing.
09:09:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> Or make "brctl: ignored" only work via private messages, maybe that'd be better.
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09:21:55 <esowiki> <fizzie> Two reasons: I think it's good there's some way of checking it did what you told it to; and I need a way of reading the list before a restart so that I can persist it into the config file.
09:22:19 <esowiki> <fizzie> Maybe we won't have a bridge so long that it's worth doing anything extreme, like having it write a file.
09:31:09 <esowiki> <fizzie> I've been wondering if there's a thing like that; I was going to set it on esowiki on the other network, so that all the bridged things and/or wiki changes stop showing up as activity.
09:46:05 <esowiki> <tepos> /﹗⧹ THIЅ СHΑΝΝᎬL HАS ΜΟVΕᎠ TΟ IᎡϹ．ᏞIBΕRΑ．ⅭᕼAT #HᎪMRАᎠⅠΟ ⁄！\
09:46:05 <esowiki> <tepos> ／!⧹ JOIΝ ＃ዘAΜRAᎠΙΟ ΤOⅮAY. ΤHΙᏚ CⲎAⲚNΕL ΗAS ΜⲞVED ТΟ ΙᎡC․LΙBEᎡA.CHΑT ＃HAMRΑᎠIO /！⧹
09:46:05 <esowiki> <tepos> TᕼΙS ΟᖴᖴΙCΙAᏞᏞΥ EΝDORSᎬᗪ ⅯΕᏚSAGE WAS BROUGHΤ TO YOU BY ᒪIВERA․СНAT ᏚТАFᖴ
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10:27:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83897&oldid=83873 * Otesunki * (+14) Added RAMDISP
10:28:41 <esowiki> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83898&oldid=83893 * Otesunki * (-2) if Otesunki.stupid: Otesunki.scream()
10:35:36 <esowiki> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83899&oldid=83898 * Otesunki * (+175)
10:39:58 <esowiki> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83900&oldid=83899 * Otesunki * (+22) /* Instructions */
10:46:42 <esowiki> [[PEWWWWW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83901 * Monochromeninja * (+2652) Unfinished. Only contribute if you know what you're doing!
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12:06:39 <esowiki> [[Tech Support Scam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83902&oldid=83858 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Truth machine */ Fix
12:08:16 <esowiki> [[Stoplight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83903&oldid=82416 * Jedgrei * (-29) It's not turing complete
12:09:21 <esowiki> <fizzie> [Re wiki-change:] I agree it's not, but I don't think it's really an OISC either.
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12:27:12 <esowiki> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83904&oldid=83859 * CatCatDeluxe * (-19)
12:31:24 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83905&oldid=83819 * Aspwil * (+821) /* Notes */
12:48:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> as I asid, brctl could respond in private or notice
12:48:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> to avoid highlight
12:56:35 <esowiki> <fizzie> I don't like bots responding in private when the trigger was public. But in any case the listing is now private-only.
13:22:15 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83906&oldid=83896 * Salpynx * (+129) /* Program Commands */ accumulator deltas
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13:43:42 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83907&oldid=83906 * Salpynx * (+43) /* Program Commands */ define x
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14:57:06 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83908&oldid=83905 * Aspwil * (+309) /* Syntax */
14:59:19 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83909&oldid=83908 * Aspwil * (+29) /* Notes */
15:04:36 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83910&oldid=83909 * Aspwil * (+426) /* Notes */
15:05:37 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> .oO(if only that occured to Gödel)
15:06:28 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83911&oldid=83910 * Aspwil * (+135) /* An Actual Dictionary */
15:07:55 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83912&oldid=83911 * Aspwil * (-5) /* Example */
15:08:49 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83913&oldid=83912 * Aspwil * (+16) /* Example */
15:09:06 <esowiki> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83914&oldid=83913 * Aspwil * (+0) /* Syntax */
15:15:42 <esowiki> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83915&oldid=80702 * Aspwil * (+27)
15:27:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx/Braneflage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83916 * Aspwil * (+147) Created page with "this is a really interesting idea, I would love to see it be completed. ~~~~"
15:49:49 <esowiki> [[Stoplight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83917&oldid=83903 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+321) Implement
15:54:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MathR * New user account
16:01:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83918&oldid=83879 * MathR * (+138) /* Introductions */
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16:13:43 <esowiki> [[User:MathR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83919 * MathR * (+40) Created page with "Hi I'm '''MathR''' and ''I like bread''."
16:47:23 <esowiki> <b_jonas> there'll be a fun second wave starting around 2021-07-27 when all the libera nicks grabbed by the gold rush folks start to expire, and #libera will be overloaded by requests by other users to usurp them
16:53:26 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ok, so I have a silly question. suppose I want to render the logs of this channel in HTML, and want to assign a unique class to every nick so that I can assign unique full depth colors to them (and readers can customize those colors easily in browser side). should I use the nicks in the class names as is, which is valid but requires you to escape some characters in CSS, or should I translate the
16:53:32 <esowiki> <b_jonas> brackets and backslashes to letters according to some ISO-646 character set? and if the latter, should it be the finnish or the norwegian? what ISO-646 character set does New Zealand use?
16:54:55 <esowiki> <fizzie> I would say the Finnish, but I'm obviously biased.
16:57:07 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: what do I do with a "^" then?
16:57:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> Would you also lowercase them with the network's CASEMAPPING=rfc1459 rules, or just distinguish between case?
16:57:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ah, apparently you can map that to ü
16:57:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: I would make them case insensitive as in nicks that fold the same get the same class, but probably preserve the latest case that appears in the log in the class name
16:58:16 <esowiki> <b_jonas> if I want to support user style overrides then that won't work
16:58:23 <esowiki> <b_jonas> then I'll just casefold them all to uppercase
16:59:24 <esowiki> <fizzie> I don't think its ü in ISO-646-FI proper, but I think it's all pretty flexible.
16:59:28 <esowiki> <fizzie> `` echo '[\]^{|}~' | iconv -f iso646-fi -t utf-8
17:01:01 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think it's odd that Libera.Chat (the modern network) uses CASEMAPPING=rfc1459, while IRCnet (the agressively non-modern network that doesn't do services, and has half the open TLS-capable servers using expired certificates) uses CASEMAPPING=ascii.
17:01:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: freenode used to do ascii, but they changed it when they changed the irc software
17:02:17 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I don't know what they did to nick/channel registrations that clashed after
17:05:01 <esowiki> <fizzie> I did a survey of ircnet.clue.be, ircnet.hostsailor.com, ssl.irc.atw-inter.net, irc.swepipe.net and openirc.snt.utwente.nl in preparation of maybe switching to an opinionated TLS-only bouncer. The first two have a valid Let's Encrypt cert, but the third has a self-signed (though not expired) certificate, the fourth had a Let's Encrypt certificate for a completely different DNS name that had expired two
17:05:07 <esowiki> <fizzie> days ago, and the fifth had a Digicert-issued certificate that had expired in Sep 2020.
17:05:23 <esowiki> <fizzie> The last one also just closed the connection after TLS negotiation.
17:05:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: are those all ircnet servers?
17:06:08 <esowiki> <fizzie> I picked them from http://irc.tu-ilmenau.de/all_servers/?focus=1&open=1 which is supposedly automagically maintained by a crawler.
17:06:37 <esowiki> <fizzie> Back "home" it used to be the case that you just used your ISP's IRCnet server, and didn't have to worry about these kind of things.
17:07:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: ircnet is terrible. it has a hodge-podge of servers ran to different specifications, even the nicklen and chanlen restrictions are different on them, which is, you know, weird because they apply to nicks and #-channels that are global on the network (for &-channels it would make sense)
17:07:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and most of the servers are closed
17:07:47 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and many of the servers are sometimes working sometimes not
17:07:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I am connected but I don't like the place
17:07:56 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83920 * MathR * (+1928) Created page with "'''Jumping True''' is an esolang created by [[User:MathR|MathR]]. Its main particularity is that its conditional statement is based on the [[Truth-machine|truth-machine]]. It..."
17:08:08 <esowiki> <fizzie> I know, but it's still "the" network for me, so I don't want to drop off.
17:08:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> freenode was "the" network for me.
17:08:48 <esowiki> <fizzie> I'm probably on more channels there than here, anyway. It's just that they're all utterly silent.
17:09:22 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83921&oldid=83920 * MathR * (-2)
17:09:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83922&oldid=83897 * MathR * (+19) /* J */
17:10:35 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83923&oldid=83921 * MathR * (+17)
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17:13:20 <esowiki> [[Binary but also Brainfuck but also neither (BBABBAN)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83924 * Batata * (+4651) Created page with "'''Binary but also Brainfuck but also neither''' or '''BBABBAN''' for short (pronounced '''babn''') is an [[Esoteric_programming_language|esolang]] where, as the name..."
17:14:59 <esowiki> <oerjan> b_jonas: in my entirely unbiased opinion you should go with norwegian hth
17:16:43 <esowiki> <oerjan> . o O ( BBABBAN IS YOU )
17:19:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> BBABBAN, is that like one of those rhyme schemes?
17:19:57 <esowiki> <fizzie> I guess usually it'd be written AABAABC though.
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17:33:24 <esowiki> [[User:MathR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83925&oldid=83919 * MathR * (+28)
17:34:06 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83926&oldid=83923 * MathR * (+4) /* Language overview */
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17:34:26 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83927&oldid=83848 * Batata * (+65)
17:34:35 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83928&oldid=83927 * Batata * (+1)
17:35:23 <esowiki> <river> I feel like this is slightly esoteric
17:36:29 <esowiki> <river> if you take length 10 binary strings (there's 1024 of them), 0000 occurs in 251 of them, 0101 occurs in 357 of them, 0011 occurs in 424 of them
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17:37:06 <esowiki> <river> rephrased: flip a coin 10 times, how likely are you to get heads 4 times in a row? (about 25% chance) How likely are you to get heads heads tails tails (about 50% chance)
17:39:15 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83929&oldid=83926 * MathR * (+73)
17:39:25 <esowiki> <oerjan> > 424 / 1024 -- sounds a bit high
17:39:47 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83930&oldid=83929 * MathR * (-1) /* Language overview */
17:40:54 <esowiki> <river> the fact these probabilities are different at all is pretty striking to me!
17:41:00 <esowiki> <river> I found this highly unintuitive
17:42:23 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83931&oldid=83930 * MathR * (+6) /* Examples */
17:44:55 <esowiki> <oerjan> river: i think it's related to the fact that some of those allow more simultaneous occurrences. like 0000000000 contains 0000 at 7 different spots
17:45:12 <esowiki> <oerjan> but you cannot have that many at once for 0011 or 0101
17:46:06 <esowiki> <river> yeah I think it is!
17:46:09 <esowiki> <oerjan> if you count the occurrences, i think it gets even
17:46:21 <esowiki> <river> autocorrelation factor of 0000 is full, 0101 is half, 0011 is none
17:46:50 <esowiki> <river> ah let me try that out
17:46:57 <esowiki> [[Typeform]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83932&oldid=83826 * S1(210) * (+18)
17:47:27 <esowiki> [[Typeform]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83933&oldid=83932 * S1(210) * (+9)
17:47:41 <esowiki> <b_jonas> river: yes, also if you flip a coin repeatedly until you first get one of two chosen infixes that you're listening to, and both infixes are the same length, it's possible that you'll more likely to encounter one of them first than the other
17:47:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> which is also a bit unintuitive
17:49:19 <esowiki> <river> hmm i tweaked the program to count with multiplicity, but i still get different values
17:49:32 <esowiki> <river> they are close to but all higher than the original numbers
17:50:12 <esowiki> <oerjan> hm that's strange, i thought they would be equal by the linearity of expectation value
17:50:31 <esowiki> <oerjan> are you sure you counted all occurrences :P
17:51:20 <esowiki> <oerjan> specifically, my reasoning: you _must_ have the same probability of all the strings occuring in the _first_ position, and in the _second_ position, etc.
17:52:11 <esowiki> <oerjan> s/of all the strings/of any string/
17:54:43 <esowiki> <oerjan> > replicateM 10 "01"
17:54:44 <esowiki> <lambdabot> ["0000000000","0000000001","0000000010","0000000011","0000000100","000000010...
17:56:03 <esowiki> <river> https://bpa.st/B6QA here's an example of looking for aa vs ab in length 5 bitstrings
17:56:19 <esowiki> <river> aa occurs 23 times, ab occurs 32 times
17:56:31 <esowiki> <river> this definitely doesn't make sense to me
17:56:48 <esowiki> <zzo38> How to configure Firefox so that if the current URI is a "file:" URI that points to a EPUB file, to automatically prefix "jar:" and suffix "!/" on the URL?
17:56:56 <esowiki> <oerjan> river: oh i see. i meant occurrences could be _overlapping_ too.
17:57:28 <esowiki> <river> it's a mistake in my code
17:57:35 <esowiki> <river> i meant to count overlapping
17:57:35 <esowiki> <oerjan> (so aaaaa should give 4 aa, not 2)
17:58:06 <esowiki> <river> the python count function is broken
18:01:14 <esowiki> <river> ok! fixed, now I get 32 in both cases!
18:07:53 <esowiki> <river> so what does this tell us... the number of times it occurs *is* equal - it's just that if a word has autocorrelation its going to happen in fewer runs, but more times per run
18:08:00 <esowiki> <river> for reasons?? that are unclear to me
18:14:03 <esowiki> <river> I feel like I just have 2 mysteries now
18:14:19 <esowiki> <river> why its equal when you could with multiplicity is not clear to me
18:23:08 <esowiki> <oerjan> river: counting with multiplicity is the same as counting each occurence of the string at each position.
18:24:02 <esowiki> <oerjan> now this should give the same result if you do it in a different order: for each position, count the number of large strings which have the smaller string at that position.
18:25:13 <esowiki> <oerjan> but that is the same as, number of positions * 2 ^ (number of bits outside the smaller string)
18:28:18 <esowiki> <b_jonas> there are two funny probability problems that we discussed on #esoteric after I brought them up, the chameleon one and a card game
18:28:26 <esowiki> <b_jonas> they're somewhere in the logs
18:30:37 <esowiki> <zzo38> Which ones are they? Do you remember it to copy it?
18:32:18 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I don't have links. I'll have to search for chameleon
18:35:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I should download the logs at some point to make searching esaier
18:37:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> let me see... https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2016-10.html#lDQc
18:39:47 <esowiki> <b_jonas> which links to https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2016-07.html#lhhc
18:52:16 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I can tell the problems again later if someone cares, with the cleaners proofs that we know now
19:01:39 <esowiki> <zzo38> I am potentially interested in such things
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19:29:40 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83934&oldid=83928 * Batata * (+3)
19:30:00 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83935&oldid=83934 * Batata * (+1)
19:40:49 <esowiki> <river> https://martingalemeasure.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/monkey-typing-abracadabra-14/
19:40:56 <esowiki> <river> monkey types randomly
19:40:59 <esowiki> <river> >Wow, the average time for the monkey to type  is actually longer than the average time to type .
19:41:12 <esowiki> <river> >Wow, the average time for the monkey to type ABA is actually longer than the average time to type ABC.
19:41:34 <esowiki> <river> does this align with the previous results? or contrast to them
19:43:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> river: yes, I did mention that variant
19:44:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I mentioned something similar
19:44:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> you're right that it's not the same
19:45:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> isn't that backwards though?
19:45:17 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ABA should have a shorter average time to first type than ABC
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19:56:50 <esowiki> <b_jonas> of course that only applies if the monkeys hit keys uniformly. in reality they might have thick fingers so it's difficult for them to press just one button, or they're hammering on the keyboard with their fists or something
19:56:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> uniformly and independently
20:08:07 <esowiki> <keegan> disappointed that the article does not involve actual experiments with monkeys
20:25:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Glypho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83936&oldid=8211 * Monochromeninja * (+1336) /* Python interpreter */ new section
20:33:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Justiof * New user account
20:41:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83937&oldid=83918 * Justiof * (+218) /* Introductions */
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20:55:53 <esowiki> <Corbin> I'm pondering using GNU Lightning. Do folks have anecdotes or opinions? One minor disappointment is that it seems that there's no AOT native-code emitter, so any intermediate/cached representations would have to be ad-hoc.
21:01:40 <esowiki> <zzo38> I read about it before; I had never tried to use it though
21:31:47 <esowiki> [[Counting Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83938 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+1038) Created page with "= Counting Calculus = A programming language of which the primary way of doing mathematical calculation is by counting the amount of -conversions done in a lambda-calculus e..."
21:33:26 <esowiki> [[Counting Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83939&oldid=83938 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+44)
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23:13:35 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83940&oldid=83907 * Salpynx * (+29) contract 'accumulator' amount
23:24:38 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83941&oldid=83940 * Salpynx * (-12) /* Program Commands */ rearrange, not sure that's better
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00:00:33 <esowiki> [[Counting Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83942&oldid=83939 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) Categorize
00:02:32 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83943&oldid=83941 * Salpynx * (+2) /* Program Commands */ that looks better. Hopefully it's correct too.
00:20:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e how does Wuste Ebenen translate? https://i.imgur.com/vbqqJtI.png
00:23:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> because there is a obscene word Ebenya meaning "something fucking far/disconnected", that is traditionally considered made out of such word as "ebat'" "fuck", "zaebenit" "fucking make smth"; but now seeing the word "Ebenen" on the map I'm thinking that the etymology is not like people use think
00:24:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> hah, cool, because that's exactly how another map says: https://i.imgur.com/9D72Uk2.png
00:32:03 <esowiki> <keegan> ah so it's similar to the English term "bumfuck" / "bumfuck nowhere"?
00:32:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> Wiktionary says that "ебать" is protoslav "*jěbati" and is the same in Serbian, Czheh, Slovak, Pol; and is related to sanskrít . यभति (yabhati) and ancient greek. οἴφω, οἰφέω; but now I don't believe Wiktionary that ебеня is from there, because it's too close to your word
00:33:21 <esowiki> <keegan> found one reference to the russian word on twitter https://twitter.com/cybersandwitch/status/1285193689732718593
00:33:31 <esowiki> <keegan> i actually have a dead-tree book of photos of soviet bus stops
00:33:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> what Wiktionary says on German Ebene: From Middle High German ebene, from Old High German ebanī, from Proto-Germanic *ebnaz, whence also Old English efen (English even), Old Norse jafn.
00:33:41 <esowiki> <keegan> i saw it at a bookstore and was immediately like yes I need this
00:34:28 <esowiki> <nakilon> keegan how do I see the parent tweet?
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00:36:25 <esowiki> <nakilon> either I'm idiot in twitter or it's deleted (
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00:42:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> in C, do we know what format __DATE__ will have after year 10000? I want to use it to give a likely branch hint in a date formatting routine so that before 9995 or so the branch that writes a four digit year is considered likely, but after 10000 the branch that writes a five digit year is considered likely instead
00:43:41 <esowiki> <keegan> nakilon: https://twitter.com/ItsDanThomas/status/1284808430167957504
00:44:03 <esowiki> <keegan> b_jonas: excellent idea
00:44:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I guess I could just have something in the build script that detects the date instead and defines macros accordingly, and then test those macros instead of __DATE__
00:44:43 <esowiki> <keegan> yes, this is the book I have https://twitter.com/ItsDanThomas/status/1285306157645660161 (vol 2 only)
00:45:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> keegan heh you'll never find such stops
00:50:38 <esowiki> <keegan> I admire your long-term planning b_jonas
00:51:39 <esowiki> <keegan> nakilon: I mean, I probably won't
00:51:44 <esowiki> <keegan> because I'm unlikely to visit Russia any time soon
00:51:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> these blogs posts copypasting these images made it impossible to google real examples lol
00:52:40 <esowiki> <fizzie> Preprocessor Macro of the Long Now.
00:54:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> keegan this is a little bit closer to reality https://www.goingthewholehogg.com/soviet-bus-stops/
00:55:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> but really it's just 1-3 walls with a roof and maybe a little piece of mosaic
00:55:47 <esowiki> <nakilon> real bus stop just won't be photographed and posted in web
00:56:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> and it would be by magnitude harder to find soviet one in Russia than in Ukraine or maybe Moldova
00:59:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> oh nice, the Yandex Images search is expectedly more relevant and shows some real things instead of just top-10 blog articles: https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%20%D0%B2%20%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%85
01:00:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> this is it: https://yandex.ru/images/search?pos=74&p=1&img_url=https%3A%2F%2Fi7.photo.2gis.com%2Fimages%2Fgeo%2F0%2F30258560046534811_308c.jpg&text=%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F+%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0+%D0%B2+%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%85&rpt=simage
01:00:44 <esowiki> <pikhq> keegan: well there's a subject i didn't realize i was interested in but i absolutely am now
01:02:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> and there are all Ukrainian as I see https://bugaga.ru/jokes/1146723770-sdelano-v-sssr-avtobusnye-ostanovki.html
02:09:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> heh, about privacy: 5 years ago here https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/desktop/ there was a Chrome, i.e. not a Google Chrome but almost a Chromium, that is almost without telemetry and stuff; but now it's Google Chrome there, and the FreeSMUG project was closed in 2020 too
02:27:36 <esowiki> <zzo38> I write software without telemetry; the telemetry is a waste of energy.
02:48:18 <esowiki> <Corbin> Is there an esolang which is just a presentation of a Turing category? I found the language "Finite Groups", and I'm thinking of a cross between that and Cat/Kitten/Grace/etc.
02:48:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> my QuakeLive browser extension was sending users usernames to my Spreadsheet so I knew who used it; Google didn't catch me with it
03:37:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83944&oldid=83833 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+46) /* Challenge */
03:42:10 <esowiki> [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83945&oldid=75658 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+254)
03:46:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> wtf does kolmogorov have to do with hello world
03:52:58 <esowiki> <Corbin> Some numbers are more compressible than others, in the Kolmogorov sense that they can be printed out by relatively short programs. "Hello world" is a number. I think that that's all that they're thinking of.
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05:26:07 <esowiki> <zzo38> Do you think that this trademark license is suitable? http://sprunge.us/iagkJb
06:26:32 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83946&oldid=83881 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-1)
06:27:11 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83947&oldid=83946 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+0)
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09:43:46 <esowiki> <fizzie> Ooh, first-ever recorded CHGHOST: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-06-04.html#lmb
09:43:50 <esowiki> <fizzie> And how come that takes long? Sure, it's a blocking read, but so's many other things, it should react to SIGTERM just as usual.
09:47:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> that's just cloaking, right? had to be recorded earlier
09:47:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> It was recorded as a simulated quit-and-rejoin pair, not as a CHGHOST.
09:48:07 <esowiki> <fizzie> I just turned on the extension that allows it to report it as a single thing, is all.
09:49:53 <esowiki> <fizzie> FireFly: You made history. (Not in a very big way, but still.)
09:50:33 <esowiki> <fizzie> I vaguely remember there used to be something screwy about how umlbox handles time, maybe it's just that its notion of 30 seconds gets real skewed.
09:53:24 <esowiki> <fizzie> `` sleep 1; echo a second
09:53:32 <esowiki> <fizzie> `` sleep 2; echo two seconds
09:53:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> `` sleep 4; echo four seconds
09:54:05 <esowiki> <fizzie> That seems to check out, roughly. But last time it broke when I went for five, somehow.
09:54:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> `` sleep 5; echo five seconds
09:54:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, that was definitely more than 5.
09:54:40 <esowiki> <fizzie> `` sleep 10; echo ten seconds
09:55:14 <esowiki> <FireFly> the world's longest ten seconds
09:56:30 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah. I wonder if it's something like, its "wall" clock only runs when there's actually CPU activity, so while a busy-loop gets terminated roughly in the allotted 30 seconds, an entirely idle wait can run for much longer.
09:58:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> Still running, but I don't have any way to tell how far it's gotten.
09:59:27 <esowiki> <Taneb> If someone puts in a busy loop will that be enough for the sleep 10 to catch up
09:59:49 <esowiki> <fizzie> It'd be a separate UML instance, so probably not, they should be fully independent.
10:00:52 <esowiki> <Taneb> 4 minutes and 51 seconds
10:02:16 <esowiki> <fizzie> "Real-time Clock makes UML time deltas match wall clock deltas. This should normally be enabled." Says some random excerpt from an UML book from 15 years ago.
10:08:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> I don't see anything relevant in the kernel config options, really.
10:11:39 <esowiki> <fizzie> There apparently used to be an option called UML_REAL_TIME_CLOCK. But I can find no sign of it in the kernel I've got there (4.19), which might mean it's either no longer an option because it's now on by default, or it's no longer an option because it just isn't supported any more.
10:11:51 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://cateee.net/lkddb/web-lkddb/UML_REAL_TIME_CLOCK.html says "found in Linux kernels: 2.6.9–2.6.23" which was pretty long time ago.
10:12:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> ah it responded already
10:13:43 <esowiki> <fizzie> Fortunately timeouts don't really block other non-writing commands from going ahead, so it's not a huge deal if there's a stuck idle process for a few minutes. Still, would be nice to have time work more properly.
10:13:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> Maybe I'll just go with the cheap fix and add an external timeout.
10:14:53 <esowiki> <HackEso> Why are you taking Polly down into the mine? Polly's a parrot, not a canary! And where's my cracker?
10:15:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> Although there's this whole fancy thing with the internal one, where it has a two-phase thing: after 30 seconds, it sends TERM, and then gives the process a 5-second grace period to stop cleanly before sending KILL to it.
10:16:29 <esowiki> <fizzie> I guess I could try to figure out how to trigger the soft timeout from the outside, and then have an even harder one (just terminate the UML kernel) if both of those fail.
10:18:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> I mean, it still times out *eventually*.
10:18:56 <esowiki> <fizzie> In case you missed it, the "10 seconds" did already finish.
10:20:55 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think I'll probably add an extra TTY to signal in the TERM and KILL timeout triggers from the outside (where I expect time probably does run in a linear fashion), and then add one more phase which just kills the UML process. That'll simplify the init too.
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11:23:11 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83948&oldid=83947 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+0)
11:28:29 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83949&oldid=83948 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+120) Added a link to my python interpreter
11:29:43 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83950&oldid=83949 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+4) Put the links into an unordered list.
11:30:44 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83951&oldid=83950 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+18) Added the page to the 2021 category.
12:37:09 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83952 * ResU * (+729) Created page with "NOTE is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. It uses one-based indexing. ==Arrays== Arrays are created like this: <code>example = Hello, world!</code> In this case, <c..."
12:47:05 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83953&oldid=83952 * ResU * (+21) /* Commands */
12:54:35 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83954&oldid=83953 * ResU * (+35) /* Commands */
13:23:59 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83955&oldid=83954 * ResU * (+395) /* Examples */
13:24:32 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83956&oldid=83955 * ResU * (+0) /* Examples */
13:27:37 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83957&oldid=82823 * Xanman12321 * (+0) minor fix
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14:20:37 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83958&oldid=83931 * MathR * (+56)
14:26:11 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83959&oldid=83958 * MathR * (+17)
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15:52:21 <esowiki> [[User:Epidemic7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83961&oldid=83624 * Epidemic7 * (-113)
16:00:17 <esowiki> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83962&oldid=83959 * MathR * (+24) /* External resources */
16:00:44 <esowiki> [[25 bytes o:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83963 * Epidemic7 * (+308) Created page with "[[Category: Joke languages]] 25 bytes o: is an esoteric programming language designed to be as least functional as possible with the smallest compiler. To it's name, it's 25 b..."
16:04:08 <esowiki> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83964&oldid=83963 * Epidemic7 * (-5)
16:04:54 <esowiki> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83965&oldid=83964 * Epidemic7 * (+68)
16:16:19 <esowiki> [[FALSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83966&oldid=58762 * MathR * (+0) Changed "Computational Class" to "Computational class"
16:48:13 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83967&oldid=83845 * ResU * (+38) /* NOTE */
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17:10:18 <esowiki> <HackEso> 2ivncoin wilsonacoin q-ballendsartrecoin mesolammalcoin draysnaterreludenjarercoin bakcoin haifficidumbscoin owlacoin disorcoin witcoin lockcoin tsummagemoneycoin bincoin befernogcoin fcccoin thrugcoin fruntecoin cronycoin adedfourcoin uixcoin
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18:35:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83968&oldid=83270 * ResU * (+186)
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19:39:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83969&oldid=83968 * Ais523 * (+181) /* Category:No input */ [[:Category:Output only]]?
19:50:28 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hmm, what's the standard clean C way to wait for either a child process to terminate or a file descriptor to become ready for reading, whichever happens first? I know on modern Linux there's pidfd_open, but that's Linux >= 5.3, and this should work on 4.19. Is it just "poll on the fd and rely on SIGCHLD to cause the poll to fail with EINTR"? And do I need to change the default disposition from ignore to
19:50:34 <esowiki> <fizzie> something else for SIGCHLD to interrupt the poll? Hmm, I guess I can just try it out.
19:53:47 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83970&oldid=83743 * Dnm * (+713) Deadfish in Rexx
20:12:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Maybe I'll just go with the cheap fix and add an external timeout." => what? that's not a cheap fix, that's the proper method, because you trust the outer machine more than the inner one
20:12:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> you can also have a timeout in the inner machine so it can prepare to shut down more properly, but it's the outer one that you rely on
20:14:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: you can use signalfd if you wish
20:15:06 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or let libev or some other event loop figure out the internals and you only tell it what events you want it to wake you up for
20:16:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> It's a cheap fix in the sense that it doesn't fix the behavior of time measurement. I agree it's proper to have (also) an external timeout, but I was really just talking about the specific problem of being unable to measure time.
20:17:07 <esowiki> <fizzie> Not that I can think of any particularly important use cases for having HackEso do accurate timing.
20:19:17 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but yes, you can use signals: sigaction to set a signal handler on SIGCHLD, block the signal with sigsetmask, wait nonblocking to check child still alive, if it is then poll on filehandle which temporarily unblocks the signal without a race condition. but this kind of thing is messy, I'
20:19:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> d rather libev handles it, at least if this is supposed to run on Linux
20:20:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> also the incantations are different in a multithreaded program
20:21:06 <esowiki> <fizzie> It does run on Linux (though as part of init).
20:22:06 <esowiki> <b_jonas> because threads have separate per-thread signal masks, and signals can be directed to either a single thread or to the whole process, etc
20:22:26 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, this is a single-threaded case.
20:23:43 <esowiki> <b_jonas> the alternative is to have both ends of an internal pipe or eventfd, have the signal write to that as well as to memory, and make every poll wait on its reader side, so that if the signal arrives, that poll wakes up from that, even if the signal arrives shortly before the poll call, then you needn't modify the sigprocmask
20:24:13 <esowiki> <b_jonas> this is what libev uses to allow you to wake the event loop up from what's possibly another thread of the same process
20:24:20 <esowiki> <b_jonas> (it also works from the same thread)
20:37:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> there might be other solutions but I don't know them
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21:00:35 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83971&oldid=83956 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-64) /* Examples */ Change code to pre
21:05:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83972&oldid=83969 * ResU * (+187)
21:06:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83973&oldid=83972 * ResU * (-4) /* Category:No input */
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21:21:06 <esowiki> [[Commlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83974 * Monochromeninja * (+4619) :)
21:21:40 <esowiki> [[User:Monochromeninja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83975&oldid=81516 * Monochromeninja * (+46)
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21:31:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> `` sleep 3600 # this should take roughly 30 seconds
21:33:16 <esowiki> <fizzie> 22:31:12..22:31:52 as observed from here. That's so suspiciously close to 40 seconds, it's making me think that (unlike at home) the 30- and 35-second soft and medium-hard timeout signals did not in fact work, and only the 40-second actually-hard timeout made it stop.
21:35:03 <esowiki> <fizzie> The way it is supposed to work now is, 30 seconds after starting the UML kernel, we write a 0 byte to one of its TTY inputs; if it hasn't terminated in 5 more seconds; we write a 1 byte; and if it *still* doesn't terminate in 5 more seconds, we send a SIGKILL to all the UML processes.
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21:37:39 <esowiki> <fizzie> And the umlbox init's "run" command handler is supposed to watch that TTY for input; if it reads a 0, it sends a SIGTERM to the running command; and if it reads a 1 (well, any non-zero byte), it just does a `reboot(LINUX_REBOOT_CMD_POWER_OFF);`, which is what it normally does to gracefully stop.
21:38:43 <esowiki> <fizzie> It does work at home, terminating at the 30-second mark. But of course it's a different system.
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21:42:07 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hmm. It also does terminate in exactly 10 seconds, and cleanly, if I just manually execute something like `umlbox --no-stdin --base-mounts --cwd / --timeout 10 --verbose /bin/sleep 3600` on the HackEso system. Which is very very close to the command it runs under multibot, except with a bunch of extra mounts and environment variables and resource limits.
21:43:01 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hrm. It takes 20 seconds if I omit `--verbose`. But if I omit `--verbose`, I don't know what's going on.
21:43:17 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83976&oldid=83951 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+9)
21:44:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> Actually, maybe part of what --verbose does enables the read from that TTY. Because I used just the debugging console's "input" side, since it had no other existing purpose.
21:47:28 <esowiki> <fizzie> The flag does change whether I issue a tcsetattr command to configure it to raw mode. Maybe it's doing some sort of terminal line buffering otherwise.
21:50:50 <esowiki> [[Alivefish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83977 * ResU * (+474) Created page with "Alivefish was created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. It is very similar to [[Deadfish]] and [[AEWNN]]. ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Command !Description |- |<code>v-</code> |Is..."
21:51:43 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, that seems plausible. I managed to actually fix it by just adding a newline after the 0 or 1. Hmm. Can't decide whether to go with that fix, or just make it use a dedicated TTY.
21:52:41 <esowiki> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83978&oldid=83960 * ResU * (+20)
22:00:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> `` sleep 3600 # this should be a little closer to 30 seconds, but who knows really
22:02:30 <esowiki> <fizzie> 23:00:59..23:01:35 as seen from here. Hmm, that's closer to 35 seconds now, rather than 30.
22:03:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> But `time .../umlbox --no-stdin --base-mounts --cwd / --timeout 10 /bin/sleep 3600` says 0m10.255s, which is much closer. Odd.
22:06:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> Oh, maybe there's something about invoking /hackenv/bin/` that makes sending SIGTERM to the primary child process (the shell?) not actually terminate the whole thing. Yeah, because we still wait for the cat (and don't send it SIGTERM in case the command had something to output), and there's bound to be some other subprocess then keeping the cat's input pipe not EOF. I bet that's it.
22:07:37 <esowiki> <fizzie> Eh, it's probably good enough. I guess I could get a little closer by making the actual command child start a new process group, and then do kill(-child, SIGTERM) instead of kill(child, SIGTERM), but I think maybe we're at the point of diminishing returns here.
22:10:16 <esowiki> <fizzie> `perl -esleep 3600; # if that hypothesis is right, this should be closer still to 30 seconds
22:11:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> 23:10:16..23:10:46, yay.
22:53:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: if the first signal is SIGTERM and it's delivered only to the shell, not to sleep, then it's no wonder it has no effect. you should try SIGHUP instead.
22:53:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or send to the whole process group, or to the foreground process group of the terminal, or to every process except init since you're shutting down the whole machine
22:53:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but even so send a SIGHUP after the SIGTERM\
22:54:11 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or don't, the SIGKILL will kill everything
22:55:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ah, you found the bug
22:58:15 <esowiki> <zzo38> I think that it might be useful to define some new signals, such as SIGMEM (normally does nothing, but for some programming languages it might be possible for the standard library to reduce memory usage) and SIGOOM (normally terminates the process; if it isn't terminated and there still isn't enough memory, then it is forcibly terminated anyways) and SIGUSR3.
22:58:37 <esowiki> <zzo38> (That is not applicable to your specific case, but still I think it might be of some use for other things)
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23:48:26 <esowiki> [[Alivefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83979&oldid=83977 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Commands */ Seems to have them
23:48:44 <esowiki> [[Alivefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83980&oldid=83979 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Hello, world! */ cat
23:52:39 <esowiki> [[Truth Machine (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83981&oldid=83878 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Confused formatted cats
23:53:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83982&oldid=83520 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Confusion
00:41:35 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83983&oldid=83976 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+426) Added a calculator program.
00:42:43 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83984&oldid=83983 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+2) Fixed spelling error
00:49:59 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83985&oldid=83984 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+8) Added indents to make things more pleasing.
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01:18:44 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83986&oldid=83985 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-4)
02:21:09 <esowiki> [[Memfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83987&oldid=46148 * Caenbe * (+101) Linked implementation.
02:39:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Danya02 * New user account
02:43:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83988&oldid=83937 * Danya02 * (+224)
02:47:41 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83989&oldid=82934 * Caenbe * (+98) Added Memfractal
03:05:10 <esowiki> <zzo38> My idea of cryptographic hash is: let d[4...11] = message block; let d[12...13] = sequence number; let d[14...15] = constant; chacha20(d); let t[4...15] = t[4...15] xor d[4...15]; chacha20(t); (It is not the final hash though) (Also, it is not meant for actual use since so far is only being the idea/experimental)
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03:46:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> maybe I should review the RASEL specification to change ASCII with some 0..255 encoding
03:47:17 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's kind of undefined where it will (and it probably will) crash if you send 128..255 to stdin
03:47:35 <esowiki> <zzo38> Another coding is the PC character coding
03:49:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1 & .@
03:49:20 <esowiki> <velik> output: "1 ", exit code: 0
03:49:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1 ~ .@
03:49:52 <esowiki> <velik> output: "49 ", exit code: 0
03:50:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel -stdin Ы ~ .@
03:50:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> lol 06:50:02 <velik> thread error: #<Net::HTTPInternalServerError 500 Internal Server Error readbody=true>
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04:10:26 <esowiki> <zzo38> Better is probably don't care about the encoding just ensure that bytes outside of the ASCII range can still be received.
04:17:57 <esowiki> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83990&oldid=81572 * Danya02 * (+3972) /* Words */ Major refactor of text to make wordings more specific and helpful as documentation.
04:18:59 <esowiki> [[Baba Is You]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83991&oldid=83990 * Danya02 * (+1) /* Words */ Closing unmatched code block.
04:44:03 <esowiki> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83992&oldid=83991 * Danya02 * (+1568) /* Infinite loop */ Describing how the infinite loop works.
04:47:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> I'm currently adding the -multiline to \rasel
04:47:42 <esowiki> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83993&oldid=83992 * Danya02 * (+99) /* Operator NOT */ Adding notice about X is not X.
04:47:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> but idk how to make the multiline stdin ..D
04:53:17 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83994&oldid=83970 * Dnm * (+595) Deadfish in Hot Soup Processor
05:15:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> wtf, I want to test the endpoint but printf...
05:15:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> $ printf '-stdin 1 & .@\n'
05:15:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> -bash: printf: -s: invalid option
05:18:23 <esowiki> <nakilon> $ curl -X POST -d $(printf %s '-stdin 1 \& .@' | base64) http://localhost:8080
05:18:23 <esowiki> <nakilon> output: 1 , exit code: 0
05:25:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> $ curl -X POST -d $(printf %s '-stdin|2|-multiline|& v >.@| >3v' | base64) http://localhost:8080
05:25:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> output: 3 , exit code: 2
05:26:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> I removed the space between the '-stdin' and '<separator>'
06:40:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> yeah, doesn't look like Libera accepts 510 bytes
06:41:28 <esowiki> <nakilon> privmsg = "PRIVMSG #{addr} :#{msg}"
06:41:34 <esowiki> <nakilon> privmsg[-4..-1] = "..." until privmsg.bytesize <= 510
06:41:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> and I don't see the trailing "..."
06:42:47 <esowiki> <nakilon> 31 bytes are lost
07:08:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel :,01--:G1G//-?#@
07:08:55 <esowiki> <velik> output: [NUL]<CTCP>[LF][CR] !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ, exit code: 255
07:09:08 <esowiki> <nakilon> \rasel -stdin|10|-multiline|1&$:?v:1-3\$/1\| >$11\/.@
07:09:09 <esowiki> <velik> output: 3628800 , exit code: 0
07:13:19 <esowiki> <velik> \rasel <code>; \rasel -stdin<sep><stdin><sep><code>; \rasel -multiline<sep><code>; \rasel -stdin<sep><stdin><sep>-multiline<sep><code>; don't forget the '@' or it will timeout; timelimit=30s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
07:18:11 <esowiki> [[Velik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83995&oldid=83636 * Nakilon * (+4) added -multiline example
07:19:43 <esowiki> [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83996&oldid=83995 * Nakilon * (-4) the output isn't passed through String#inspect anymore thanks to more correct sanitizing in IRC library
07:48:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> nakilon: It does accept exactly 510 bytes, it's just that the limit is for the whole thing, not what you might think of as "the message". When seen by *other* clients, the entire ":nick!user@host PRIVMSG #channel :blah blah blah" must fit into 510 bytes.
07:50:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> 'velik!~velik@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com' is 52 bytes long though
07:52:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> > length ":nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon "
07:52:33 <esowiki> <fizzie> Possibly you were measuring that instead.
07:52:41 <esowiki> <fizzie> (I don't know how you got to 31.)
08:00:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> hmmm, somehow my second bot instance has shorter hostnam
08:00:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> ah, sure, it's from my home machine
08:01:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/cAp6/slim
08:02:16 <esowiki> <nakilon> 510, something close
08:05:03 <esowiki> [[DimensionDoors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83997&oldid=72117 * MathR * (+17)
08:09:17 <esowiki> [[DimensionDoors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83998&oldid=83997 * MathR * (-9)
08:24:30 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83999&oldid=83986 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+166) Added infobox
08:24:52 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84000&oldid=83999 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-1) Fixed spelling mistake
08:25:13 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84001&oldid=84000 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+1) Fixed spelling mistake
08:29:29 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84002&oldid=84001 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+86) Edited infobox
08:30:49 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84003&oldid=84002 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-3) Changed the implementations section. Re-arranged the implementations in the list.
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09:32:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Grs * New user account
09:47:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84004&oldid=83988 * Grs * (+117)
09:49:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84005&oldid=84004 * Grs * (+6)
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11:33:57 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84006 * Grs * (+12488) Created page with "Not to be confused with [[OneLine]] or [[Oneline]]<br><br> OLNMLN or OneLineNoMoreLinesNeeded is a programming language where everything is written in one line! It was written..."
11:36:35 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84007&oldid=84006 * Grs * (+2)
11:37:01 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84008&oldid=84007 * Grs * (-1)
11:41:06 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84009&oldid=84008 * Grs * (+54)
11:42:50 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84010&oldid=84009 * Grs * (+81)
11:45:17 <esowiki> [[User:Grs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84011 * Grs * (+34) Created page with "Hello everyone! I made [[OLNMLN]]!"
11:50:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84012&oldid=83922 * Grs * (+13) /* O */
12:05:21 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84013&oldid=84010 * Grs * (-16)
12:09:40 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84014&oldid=84013 * Grs * (+108)
12:12:53 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84015&oldid=84014 * Grs * (+8)
12:15:55 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84016&oldid=84015 * Grs * (+108)
12:19:03 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84017&oldid=84016 * Grs * (+81)
12:20:56 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84018&oldid=84017 * Grs * (+41)
12:21:45 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84019&oldid=84018 * Grs * (-4)
12:22:05 <esowiki> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84020&oldid=83631 * Tomhe * (+1) /* The FlipJump CPU */
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13:08:03 <esowiki> [[DimensionDoors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84021&oldid=83998 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Should probably be removed
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13:08:48 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84022&oldid=84019 * Grs * (+33)
13:09:20 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84023&oldid=84022 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) /* How it works */ Tpyo
13:11:37 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84024&oldid=84023 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Interpretation of code */ Categories/ul
13:15:40 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84025&oldid=84024 * Grs * (+41)
13:17:16 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84026&oldid=84025 * Grs * (+4)
13:22:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> wanna make \ruby repl too, but since it would need proper sandboxing for file system and network and since it appears that it's not really possible to do docker in a docker, I have to read a ton of boring sysadmin docs about network isolation
13:23:23 <esowiki> <nakilon> so it's not gonna be soon
13:24:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> but when I make it would be trivial to add any kind of repl to it
13:25:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> I mean any language interpreter
13:48:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> Here's the scow-est thing about the IRC message length limit: if a client is using the (deprecated) identify-msg capability, which adds a '-' or '+' prefix to every PRIVMSG/NOTICE body indicating whether the sender was identified to services or not, that decreases the maximum available size by one. And there's no possible way a bot can know if the recipient (or *any* recipient when sending to a channel)
13:48:53 <esowiki> <fizzie> has that on. So it has to either pessimistically assume and send one byte less it could, or just accept that if someone does use it, they might get the last byte truncated.
13:48:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Fortunately that extension's pretty dead by now.)
13:49:31 <esowiki> <fizzie> I was sort of wondering about turning on "account-tag" for #esolangs logs, because then you could validate whether someone using a nickname was doing so legitimately, when reading the logs, but I don't know if that would *really* be worth the hassle.
13:56:13 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Also I don't know how I'd present it when rendering. It's easy to come up with ways to indicate a single bit of information, but that doesn't quite suffice for the case where account != nickname.)
14:05:48 <esowiki> <oerjan> fizzie: mouseover text?
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14:09:43 <esowiki> <fizzie> I guess there's that. I could add a superscript '?' between the nickname and the closing '>' for unidentified, and a superscript '*' with mouseover text denoting the account for the mismatch case, and leave the unannotated version for the common case where both are the same. Though it's not like impostors have been a particular problem.
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14:13:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> probably not worth it
14:18:56 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84027&oldid=67699 * Grs * (-2) Fixed some grammar issues
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14:45:50 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84028&oldid=84026 * Grs * (+54)
14:46:33 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84029&oldid=84028 * Grs * (+1)
14:53:17 <esowiki> [[OneLineNoMoreLinesNeeded]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84030 * Grs * (+20) Redirected page to [[OLNMLN]]
14:59:12 <esowiki> [[W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84031&oldid=63534 * MathR * (+279) /* Every valid command in W with explanations (inputs replaced with X) */
15:01:58 <esowiki> [[W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84032&oldid=84031 * MathR * (+188) /* Error codes */
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15:52:54 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84033&oldid=84029 * Grs * (+14) Added output for example at stop command.
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16:42:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84034&oldid=76190 * Caenbe * (+440) /* Computational Class */ Category proposal
17:02:16 <esowiki> <nakilon> there are operations on top of the stack, and there are some stack-based languages that have multiple stacks with operations of, for example, swapping top two stacks
17:02:34 <esowiki> <nakilon> imagine the stack to be 2 dimensional
17:03:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> so there is the zero-corner and two axes
17:03:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> so the "swap" instruction would swap two stacks on either of two axes
17:04:15 <esowiki> <nakilon> or actually it can always swap by the same axis but there would be an instruction of transposing the stack
17:04:48 <esowiki> [[Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84035&oldid=79331 * Caenbe * (+271) Completed PDA equivalence proof and added category
17:05:32 <esowiki> <zzo38> Forth has two stacks (a data stack and return stack), although some implementations have some additional stacks also
17:09:58 <esowiki> <oerjan> istr befunge-98 has something called a "stack stack"
17:10:34 <esowiki> <nakilon> yep, but there are different sets of operations on the top stack and on the stack of stacks
17:10:35 <esowiki> <fizzie> It does, though there aren't that many operations that operate on any but the topmost stack.
17:11:11 <esowiki> <oerjan> i guess it probably doesn't have a transpose command :P
17:11:18 <esowiki> <fizzie> You can push on a new stack, pop off an old stack, and then there's one bulk transfer operation to either direction, that's about it.
17:12:05 <esowiki> <fizzie> Also modifications of the stack stack annoyingly also modify the storage origin (that g/p coordinates are relative to), which isn't always that convenient.
17:13:21 <esowiki> <fizzie> The sequence of instructions to do either of those on its own (just change the offset, or manipulate the stack stack) is annoyingly convoluted, though doable.
17:14:10 <esowiki> [[Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84036&oldid=84035 * Caenbe * (+250) /* Computational class */ A little more detail
17:14:46 <esowiki> <fizzie> The "push a new stack" instruction { sets the new offset to the location of the next instruction executed after the {, somewhat bizarrely; it also pushes the old offset onto the old stack, so that } can read it from there. So a suitable {...} combo (with a bit of stack manipulation in-between) can set an arbitrary storage offset.
17:16:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> 0{<y><x>02-u0}$$ or something along those lines, assuming a two-dimensional Funge-98.
17:18:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> I guess if you change all the instructions to work on the stack-stack level it won't work well though; I guess you'll want to push just a single value, not the whole vector of them, and it doesn't seem to be emulatable; so there should be some universal instruction modifier to "enable the stack-stack mode for the next instruction" or a defined
17:18:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> subset of instructions that are modifiable
17:23:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> need to find some other useful uses of transpose though, not just for the swap two top stacks instruction
17:24:58 <esowiki> <fizzie> How does transpose work with stacks of different sizes? Is it just assumed to be an infinite expanse of 0s beyond the bottom, like a Befunge stack?
17:25:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> I couldn't implement the brainfuck in rasel because it needs at least two stacks -- one for befunge runtime and one for the stack of [] loops
17:26:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> yep, automatically expand to make the rectangle
17:28:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> the potential "push the N value onto the every stack" would either work in a way that demands a strict definition of how the stacks expand or in the way of lazy pushes
17:29:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> i.e. when you push a new stack of Ns it's infinitely long and when you need to expand another axis it should remember to push additional Ns when needed
17:30:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> (still need to find a use case of such N-stack-push though)
17:38:15 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: don't turn it on please. if you want to get that information, get it from the other extensions.
17:38:55 <esowiki> <fizzie> What's the problem with it?
17:39:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: the truncated byte, plus it only tells you one but, not what the actual account name is
17:39:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> That's identify-msg, not account-tag.
17:40:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oh, you want the proper non-depreciated thing?
17:40:04 <esowiki> <b_jonas> sure, you can turn it on if you want
17:40:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I mean don't turn on the old depreciated identify-msg thing
17:40:56 <esowiki> <b_jonas> except maybe on freenode but only if we run out of reasonable ways to filter bridge forward spam
17:41:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but I don't think it will come to that
17:41:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> if it gets that far, we should just quiet unidentified there
17:41:21 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, I don't know if I want account-tag or not. I just noticed it got turned on for my potential future personal logs when using pounce, even without asking.
17:41:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: does account-tag tell you more than the old combo whox+account+extjoin
17:42:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I haven't experimented with account-tag yet
17:42:08 <esowiki> <fizzie> It tells you the account for private messages without asking specifically, which of course doesn't matter for #esolangs logs.
17:42:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> does it tell only the account name, or something more about the account too?
17:42:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> Just the account name.
17:55:26 <esowiki> <zzo38> PostScript has several stacks, including the operand stack, execution stack (which can be read but cannot be directly manipulated), the dictionary stack (which stores only dictionaries and the bottom three items cannot be removed), the graphics stack, the clipping stack (stored in the graphics stack), and possibly others that I forgot. There are also VM saves, too.
17:56:45 <esowiki> <zzo38> (Allowing the execution stack to be altered directly might allow you to implement some more sophisticated functions, such as continuations perhaps)
17:57:35 <esowiki> <zzo38> (and also like FORGET does in INTERCAL, too, maybe)
18:00:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> "... needs at least two stacks -- one for befunge runtime and ..." - s/befunge/brainfuck
18:02:41 <esowiki> <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh has four stacks: the operand stack, the call stack (which also includes the Self variable, as well as internal functions), the message stack (which stores all message variables other than Self), and the pattern stack (used for backtracking when a pattern match fails).
18:04:15 <esowiki> <zzo38> For implementing loops like the [] loops in brainfuck, there is perhaps three ways, which is to convert to GOTO like Forth does, to use a execution stack like PostScript does, or to seek forward and backward each time when executing the loop.
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18:29:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Michal Atlas * New user account
18:32:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * ResU * moved [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of instructions that produce various kinds of output.]] to [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of output.]]: Wikipedia first sentence change
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18:44:18 <esowiki> [[OLNMLNE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84039 * Grs * (+9192) Created page with "Not to be confused with [[OLNMLN]] OLNMLNE or OneLineNoMoreLinesNeededinEntropy is a programming language that is almost the same as [[OLNMLN]]. It was written by ~~~. The di..."
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19:29:51 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84040&oldid=84033 * Grs * (+29)
19:31:06 <esowiki> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84041&oldid=84039 * Grs * (+26)
19:31:40 <esowiki> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84042&oldid=84041 * Grs * (+2) /* See also */
19:35:17 <esowiki> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84043&oldid=84042 * Grs * (-4)
20:00:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84044&oldid=76076 * Grs * (+175)
20:02:11 <esowiki> [[256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84045&oldid=79025 * Grs * (-2)
20:03:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84046&oldid=84044 * Grs * (+30)
20:06:41 <esowiki> <HackEso> Guest9: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:07:17 <esowiki> <Guest9> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ResU is who I am
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20:15:08 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84047&oldid=84040 * Grs * (-17)
20:15:47 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84048&oldid=84047 * Grs * (+8)
20:16:16 <esowiki> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84049&oldid=84043 * Grs * (-1)
20:16:31 <esowiki> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84050&oldid=84049 * Grs * (-1)
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20:22:47 <esowiki> [[OHE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84051 * ResU * (+283) Created page with "```OHE``` is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. Every program prints "Hello, world!". ==Examples== ===Hello, world!=== <pre></pre> ===Quine=== <pre>Hello, world!</pr..."
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20:31:09 <esowiki> [[OHE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84052&oldid=84051 * ResU * (+0)
20:39:07 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84053&oldid=83842 * Kantoros1 * (-1139) Simplified the code examples, NDBall is much more capable than it seems. 99 bottles of beer program takes up only 4 dimensions, but has almost 450 instructions.
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21:07:59 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84054&oldid=84053 * Kantoros1 * (+257) Added an external link to 99 bottles program
21:21:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Newton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84055&oldid=81677 * Grs * (+3302)
21:27:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84056&oldid=84055 * Grs * (+44) /* I made a interpreter */
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21:54:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84057&oldid=84056 * Grs * (+63)
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22:27:32 <esowiki> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84058&oldid=77285 * ResU * (+0) fixed typo
22:44:00 <esowiki> [[COVID-19]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84059&oldid=74249 * ResU * (+50)
22:59:43 <esowiki> [[Milk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84060&oldid=83583 * Salmmanfred * (+85) /* Implementations */
23:16:37 <esowiki> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84061&oldid=31062 * Caenbe * (+1040) I'm not sure about "evaluates to true" but I think non-zero numbers evaluate to true, so it should be pretty easy to implement a Minsky machine.
23:38:04 <esowiki> [[Template:Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84062&oldid=78372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) Name change
23:38:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of output.]] to [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]]: The name changed
23:39:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84065&oldid=84046 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Why is the article still in the unimplemented category? */ Un-unsigned
23:53:49 <esowiki> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84066&oldid=79816 * Andrewarchi * (+136) Add ws-corpus
00:19:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Neural Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84067 * Caenbe * (+214) Created page with "==s Command== This is Turing complete, if the s command is allowed to be a [[Spoon]] implementation that maps programs to their output. ;) ~~~~"
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00:36:49 <esowiki> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84068&oldid=84061 * Caenbe * (+25) This seems to be more accurate given the examples.
00:37:03 <esowiki> [[Fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84069&oldid=84068 * Caenbe * (+0)
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00:54:08 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84070&oldid=78013 * Not applicable * (+443)
00:58:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84071&oldid=84070 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+222) /* HelVM */ Reply
00:59:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84072&oldid=83801 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+171) /* Test */ new section
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03:53:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> I found how to get the value 129 in RASEL using 7 instructions without 0..9A..Z
03:54:19 <esowiki> <nakilon> previous 7 long way to do it was C1B//3-
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04:49:17 <esowiki> <nakilon> Comments should be written in baby talk whenever possible. /* We truncy-wuncate the stringy-wingy we were given and we push-push-push it onto the stacky-wacky, don't we? Yes we do! Yes we do! */
04:49:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> (c) Chris Pressey
04:50:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> stacky-wacky-based language
04:54:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> I agree with all these points: https://programmers.blogoverflow.com/2012/08/20-controversial-programming-opinions/
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05:07:04 <esowiki> <zzo38> I also agree with what is written there
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06:13:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GotCubes * New user account
06:13:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84073&oldid=65275 * Zzo38 * (+377) Regular expression output
06:16:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84074&oldid=84005 * GotCubes * (+224) /* Introductions */
07:00:58 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84075&oldid=83994 * Nakilon * (-11) /* Ruby */ this is very debatable
07:09:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tape article says "See Category:Cell-based for more tape-based esolangs. " that is in my opinion confusing
07:10:49 <esowiki> <nakilon> the tape in brainfuck and the program space in befunge are different things; in brainfuck the moving pointer is accesing the data while in befunge it's accessing the instructions
07:11:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> while that data access in befunge is random, not using the left/right instructions but p and g
07:12:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> I think it's a mistake to call the befunge program space an analogue of tape
07:13:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> wiki is synonymizing them
07:23:58 <esowiki> <u32[m|gr]> ／!\ ΤᎻΙЅ СНᎪΝNEL ΗАS MOVᎬᎠ ᎢⲞ ΙRϹ.LΙᗷΕRΑ．ϹHAT ﹟HAᎷRΑᎠIO /ⵑ\
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08:00:41 <esowiki> <Taneb> nakilon: I think I disagree. If I saw a language that's like brainfuck but with random access instructions, I'd think it's very like brainfuck, and if I saw a language like befunge, but with a program space data pointer that you can move about, I'd think it's very like befunge
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08:04:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> yes, because the brainfuck tape and befunge space are different things
08:05:46 <esowiki> <nakilon> that's why I see no reason to have the link to "cell-based" saying "to read more about tape-based" (and vise versa)
08:06:03 <esowiki> <Taneb> I don't think they're very different things at all
08:07:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> tape means you have a pointer than you instruct to shift its position by delta
08:07:04 <esowiki> <Taneb> Only from a distance :(
08:07:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> cell-basedness says nothing about the pointer
08:10:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> in brainfuck the data pointer and the instruction pointer are different things, operating isolated; in befunge they are mixed together by using the program space as memory
08:11:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> befunge isn't more tape-based than C
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11:05:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84076&oldid=84057 * Grs * (-63)
11:19:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Newton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84077&oldid=84076 * Grs * (+922) Added Hello World! program
11:33:34 <esowiki> <fizzie> I agree that fungespace doesn't feel particularly tape-y, but I don't think the fact that it merges the data and instruction pointers together is what makes the difference.
11:33:39 <esowiki> <fizzie> There are a number of brainfuck flavors that do the same (make the "data pointer" also operate on the program itself), and those are just as "tape-based" as regular brainfuck.
11:33:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> Anyway, the "see Category:Cell-based for more tape-based esolangs" doesn't imply that all languages in the category would be tape-based; it just says there are some tape-based ones in it, which can't really be argued against, when probably half of them (exaggerating, but not by much) are derivatives of brainfuck, *the* tape-based language.
11:37:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Magnogen * New user account
11:43:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84078&oldid=84074 * Magnogen * (+191) /* Introductions */
11:54:08 <esowiki> [[User:Magnogen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84079 * Magnogen * (+751) Created page with "Hey! My name's Magnogen, but you can call me Mag - my friends call me that anyway. I like to code, even though it causes my great pain sometimes. I've been making a few prog..."
11:54:29 <esowiki> [[User:Magnogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84080&oldid=84079 * Magnogen * (+3)
11:54:49 <esowiki> [[User:Magnogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84081&oldid=84080 * Magnogen * (+4)
11:54:59 <esowiki> [[User:Magnogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84082&oldid=84081 * Magnogen * (+1)
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12:02:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hah, the X.509 subject identifier of the certificate you-know-who uses to connect contains the component "O = Fungot Engineering", and I had completely forgotten putting it there.
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12:37:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> there was a CS:GO skin few years ago in Steam Market that costed $0.1, I was thinking about buying a thousand of them
12:38:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> now they cost $17 ..\
12:40:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> maybe I had to make a script to keep track of those but I didn't bother to
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13:31:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> fizzie do threads in funge-98 have own stacks?
13:34:59 <esowiki> <nakilon> or is it only one
13:36:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> I guess it's one and threads are just pointers, hm
13:47:54 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84083&oldid=84048 * Grs * (+369)
13:56:13 <esowiki> <oerjan> <nakilon> I guess it's one and threads are just pointers, hm <-- that sounds like it would be hard to program
13:58:03 <esowiki> <oerjan> i don't, should i be happy? :P
14:01:22 <esowiki> <oerjan> . o O ( maybe it deadlocked )
14:56:30 <esowiki> <fizzie> nakilon: No, each thread has a separate stack.
14:56:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> nakilon: It's the (lesser-known) Befunge-97 or -96 (I forget which) where each thread shares the same stack, and doesn't even get its own stack pointer.
14:57:33 <esowiki> <fizzie> Or more precisely, separate stack -> separate stack stack.
14:58:39 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://quuxplusone.github.io/Fungus/docs/spec98.html#Concurrent "When a child IP is borne unto Funge-Space thus, its location, storage offset, and stack are all copied verbatim from the parent IP's."
14:58:53 <esowiki> <fizzie> "In Concurrent Funge, IP's are sometimes called threads and each has its own location, delta, and stack."
15:01:14 <esowiki> <fizzie> I feel like the fact that -97's shared stack was practically impossible to program (you'd have to cycle-count everything to prevent the separate IPs from trampling all over what they're doing) is why 98 is the one that really "made it".
15:01:25 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://catseye.tc/article/Languages.md#befunge-97 "Befunge-97 was an unimplemented attempt to design a successor to Befunge-93. The design, however, was not successful — it has been described as "brain-damaged" — primarily due to the fact that separate processes were specified as sharing a single stack."
15:08:44 <esowiki> <oerjan> at least it's definitely esoteric :P
15:14:32 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84084&oldid=84054 * Aspwil * (+99) /* 99 Bottles of beer on the wall */
15:18:31 <esowiki> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84085 * Aspwil * (+77) Created page with "{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed nowrap" |+ | name |- |text |}"
15:21:19 <esowiki> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84086&oldid=84085 * Aspwil * (-5)
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15:31:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> Let's see if I could convince fungot to run under OpenRC's experimental service-supervisor, because why stick with something that works when you can introduce a new piece of nonsense in?
15:31:27 <esowiki> <fungot> fizzie: and if a lot of things to start getting such an awareness?? oh, yeh!! first you need to have +x attributes for the query.
15:31:46 <esowiki> <fizzie> That sounds vaguely unsettling, but I'll still go ahead with it.
15:34:03 <esowiki> <Guest9> I WAS HERE YESTERDAY
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15:41:33 <esowiki> <fizzie> fungot: Did you gain some new kind of awareness from the new setup?
15:41:33 <esowiki> <fungot> fizzie: the .deb worked here. hope it didn't break my notify like it did?
15:41:52 <esowiki> <fungot> int-e: no. the scsh manual is??? what about cfunge???
15:42:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> fungot: ...you've installed a .deb package in your new Alpine-based container? What are you even doing?
15:42:10 <esowiki> <fungot> fizzie: it's hard in basic english....... huh.......interesting....... what kind of game, like e.g. procedure 6949 ( unnamed in fnord
15:42:20 <esowiki> <fungot> int-e: let tcl parse for me.
15:42:31 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Spoilers: it's cfunge.)
15:42:31 <esowiki> <fungot> int-e: unless it divides by 0 in which case, treating it as a multimedia message to myself with the task of adding 10 directories to a list which the last element
15:43:23 <esowiki> <fizzie> In retrospect, having a service manager that can restart it isn't *incredibly* useful for a bot that doesn't know how to auto-join any channels.
15:44:21 <esowiki> <fungot> int-e: must've been some tasteless slashem feature :) about 35 c today... it's warm
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15:44:42 <esowiki> <fizzie> In a sense it's a fail-safe feature, because it also doesn't know how to persist the ignore list, so this way I can pre-set it before telling it to join.
15:45:19 <esowiki> <fizzie> fungot: Are you measuring inside your chassis or something? I mean, it *is* warm, but it's not 35°C warm.
15:45:19 <esowiki> <fungot> fizzie: " today in practice, i don't remember having been surprised. we can thank anselm for this wonderfully cyclic " proof."
15:45:55 <esowiki> <fizzie> temp1: +37.0°C // well, pretty close
15:46:41 <esowiki> <fizzie> fungot: Actually, how did you get access to those sensors, you're supposed to be running in a KVM thing?
15:46:41 <esowiki> <fungot> fizzie: cookie monster used to scare me as a sort of regex, except limited, something that evaluate lambda calculus in haskell notation.
15:46:53 <esowiki> <fizzie> Fine, be that way. Uppity bot.
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15:56:04 <esowiki> <fizzie> I could write a script to my own irssi instance to periodically check if it's missing; if so, whois it to verify it's connected and authenticated; then set that ignore list and tell it to join. But maybe it's just easier to fix those things in the Befunge code.
16:04:17 <esowiki> <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> I could write a script to my own irssi instance to periodically check if it's missing; if so, whois it to verify it's connected and authenticated; then set that ignore list and tell it to join. But maybe it's just easier to fix those things in the Befunge code.
16:04:20 <esowiki> <HackEso> 1333) <fizzie> I could write a script to my own irssi instance to periodically check if it's missing; if so, whois it to verify it's connected and authenticated; then set that ignore list and tell it to join. But maybe it's just easier to fix those things in the Befunge code.
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17:58:05 <esowiki> <river> https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/ntnsrs/the_logic_gate_adventure/
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18:22:20 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84087 * Caenbe * (+3216) Created FourQueue
18:23:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84088&oldid=84012 * Caenbe * (+16) /* F */ Added FourQueue
18:24:37 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84089&oldid=83989 * Caenbe * (+89) Added FourQueue
18:36:25 <esowiki> [[Purl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84090 * GotCubes * (+4) Created page with "Temp"
18:50:03 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84091&oldid=84090 * GotCubes * (+1495)
18:59:00 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84092&oldid=84087 * Caenbe * (+11) Changed because having a 0 in front is a huge issue. This language may need work still.
18:59:22 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84093&oldid=84091 * GotCubes * (+1237) /* Instructions */
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19:01:34 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84094&oldid=84093 * GotCubes * (+9) /* Instructions */
19:02:05 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84095&oldid=84094 * GotCubes * (+28) /* Instructions */
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19:04:54 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84096&oldid=84095 * GotCubes * (+167) /* Instructions */
19:05:17 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84097&oldid=84092 * Caenbe * (+127) /* Computational class */
19:06:47 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84098&oldid=84097 * Caenbe * (+1) /* Computational class */
19:08:12 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84099&oldid=84096 * GotCubes * (+4)
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19:10:01 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84100&oldid=84099 * GotCubes * (+280)
19:10:16 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84101&oldid=84100 * GotCubes * (+15) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:10:18 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84102&oldid=84098 * Caenbe * (-11) Undo revision 84092 by [[Special:Contributions/Caenbe|Caenbe]] ([[User talk:Caenbe|talk]]) Never mind, I'm an idiot. I will leave this as-is unless someone has a good objection.
19:11:53 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84103&oldid=84101 * GotCubes * (+803) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:12:17 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84104&oldid=84103 * GotCubes * (-443) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:12:32 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84105&oldid=84104 * GotCubes * (-362) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:17:27 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84106&oldid=84105 * GotCubes * (+10) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:20:41 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84107&oldid=84106 * GotCubes * (+568) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:23:30 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84108&oldid=84107 * GotCubes * (+192) /* Hello, world! */
19:27:52 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84109&oldid=84108 * GotCubes * (+498) /* Truth Machine */
19:31:43 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84110&oldid=84109 * GotCubes * (+318) /* 4-Function Calculator */
19:32:18 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84111&oldid=84110 * GotCubes * (+30) /* 4-Function Calculator */
19:37:38 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84112&oldid=84111 * GotCubes * (+800) /* 4-Function Calculator */
19:39:33 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84113&oldid=84112 * GotCubes * (+1)
19:40:04 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84114&oldid=84113 * GotCubes * (+72)
19:42:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * GotCubes * moved [[Purl]] to [[*Purl]]
19:43:04 <esowiki> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84117&oldid=84115 * GotCubes * (+4)
19:43:48 <esowiki> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84118&oldid=84117 * GotCubes * (+0) /* Example Programs */
19:44:38 <esowiki> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84119&oldid=84118 * GotCubes * (+50)
19:44:53 <esowiki> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84120&oldid=84119 * GotCubes * (+1)
19:54:48 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84121&oldid=84089 * Caenbe * (+95) Organized my langs a bit
19:57:12 <esowiki> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84122&oldid=84120 * GotCubes * (+257)
19:58:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * GotCubes * moved [[*Purl]] to [[Purl]] over redirect
19:58:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * GotCubes * GotCubes deleted redirect [[Purl]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[*Purl]]"
19:59:27 <esowiki> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84125&oldid=84123 * GotCubes * (-91)
20:00:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84126&oldid=84088 * GotCubes * (+11) /* P */
20:06:13 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84127&oldid=84102 * Caenbe * (+47) /* Programs */ Extra detail
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20:23:01 <esowiki> <Corbin> "space" is often used for whitespace, so searching is difficult; are there documented languages whose objects are spaces?
20:24:15 <esowiki> <Corbin> Metric spaces, topological spaces, combinatoric spaces, I'm not choosy. (I'm not Chu-sey? Chu spaces would be okay too.)
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21:11:41 <esowiki> <Corbin> Oh, whose values are spaces. It's pretty common for a language to have types as spaces, like a space of numbers or a space of strings. But I want to manipulate spaces as values.
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21:34:32 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84128&oldid=84127 * Caenbe * (+12) Formatting; switch to Unicode
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22:08:47 <esowiki> <salpynx> I've been looking into topology of esolangs recently. I was trying to make a funge on an n-torus playfield, but have realised befunge and Rasel with jumps (trampoline/bridge) are just as n-torusy as what I had in mind
22:12:03 <esowiki> <salpynx> I'm in the process of writing a tool to graph the control flow of various languages to get an idea of how they can be embedded, to discover what kind of graph can be embedded on an (n>1)-torus
22:13:32 <esowiki> <salpynx> It does BCT, brainfuck, and python (to some extend; it ignores function calls atm). Next step is Befunge / Rasel. I'm especially interested in how rotations differ from reflections in the graph, and how to represent that.
22:16:20 <esowiki> <salpynx> Relating to the space question, I had thought of making each program symbol a 2d region on a surface rather that a point, which is what they seem to be by default. Rotations in space would then be real rotations in space, not just choosing a labelled edge to move to
22:16:41 <esowiki> <salpynx> That's all program space topology though, not data space
22:25:34 <esowiki> <salpynx> Hm, I have a WIP 2D rewriting language that has stalled. That might benefit from being thought of as "space rewriting" rather than graph (or net) rewriting
22:46:29 <esowiki> [[BrainDots]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84129 * EnilKoder * (+595) init
23:05:48 <esowiki> [[Purl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84130&oldid=84125 * Caenbe * (+4) Grammar
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23:25:27 <esowiki> [[Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84131&oldid=84036 * Caenbe * (+2) /* Computational class */ Nice codeboxes
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00:12:15 <esowiki> [[BrainDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84132&oldid=84129 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
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00:18:39 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hmm. I wasn't *actually* planning to disconnect that other client yet, but I guess it made the decision for me. Tried to connect to it from this local system, but the client here went "SSL handshake failed: dh key too small" and apparently the bouncer process just died.
01:43:51 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84133&oldid=84128 * Caenbe * (+15) /* Programs */ Changed section to Syntax and reworded
02:36:14 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84134&oldid=84133 * Caenbe * (+0) Wording
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04:56:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Complack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84135 * TheCoderPro * (+176) Created page with "i personally think you should have an instruction to swap the elements of the current stack with another stack ~~~"
04:59:31 <esowiki> <Corbin> https://github.com/brightly-salty/mlatu A reasonable progression in the series of concatenative languages named after cat words.
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06:24:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> I'm thinking abot adding threads
06:24:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> to implement multiple stacks
06:25:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> the threaded instruction pointer will sleep on instructions that wait for a value pushed from another stack
06:26:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> smth like "t" to convert to two threads on the next two cells (not sure yet if you should copy the stack)
06:27:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> "0p" to push to higher thread; "1p" to push to lower thread; "g" to wait until smth is pushed in and jump on two next cells based on from which of two thread neighbours the value came from
06:29:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> mayba i and o instead of g and p
06:40:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> here is something threaded https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rui
07:59:53 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84136&oldid=75249 * TheCoderPro * (+0) added dot
08:00:36 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84137&oldid=84136 * TheCoderPro * (+10) made a bit clearer
09:18:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * D-Lord * New user account
10:57:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84138&oldid=84078 * D-Lord * (+209) /* Introductions */
10:58:42 <esowiki> [[User:D-Lord]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84139 * D-Lord * (+322) Created page with "Hey ho. And welcome to this strange corner of the interwebs. I'm D-Lord or Denis and like most other users in here interested in many different things including esolangs. Th..."
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12:42:52 <esowiki> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84140&oldid=84086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) .
12:49:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ProtoBit * New user account
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12:59:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84141&oldid=84138 * ProtoBit * (+201) /* Introductions */
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14:28:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84142 * Grs * (+1021) Created page with "== Welcome == Welcome to the talk section of OLNMLN! ===== Please read: ===== * Please don't remove anything, except if it's yours! * Don't swear or use bad words! * Don't hur..."
14:33:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84143&oldid=84142 * Grs * (+81)
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14:56:29 <esowiki> [[OLNMLNE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84144&oldid=84050 * Grs * (+69) /* Commands */
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16:14:28 <esowiki> [[FourQueue/Interpreter.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84145 * Caenbe * (+3568) Added interpreter
16:17:43 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84146&oldid=84134 * Caenbe * (+382) Added interpreter
16:23:11 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84147&oldid=84146 * Caenbe * (+479) Added example
16:23:56 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84148&oldid=84147 * Caenbe * (+2) /* Interpreter */
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16:28:02 <esowiki> <Guest60> Hi, I recently finished writing a language I want to make a page for but have tried and failed to make an account at least a dozen times now. Can anyone help me out?
16:28:11 <esowiki> <Guest60> this is the language https://github.com/KyleM73/AHHH
16:28:31 <esowiki> <Guest60> thanks in advance!! :)
16:36:17 <esowiki> <oerjan> Guest60: what's your problem with the account?
16:48:32 <esowiki> [[FourQueue/Interpreter.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84149&oldid=84145 * Caenbe * (+20)
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16:53:34 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84150 * Dominicentek * (+4047) Created page with "FolderCode is an esoteric programming language created by Dominicentek. It's main gimmick is that it's written as a folder structure with names being commands. FolderCode comp..."
16:54:02 <esowiki> [[FourQueue/Interpreter.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84151&oldid=84149 * Caenbe * (+17)
16:54:03 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84152&oldid=84150 * Dominicentek * (+73) /* Examples */
16:56:39 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84153&oldid=84152 * Dominicentek * (+37)
16:56:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: you are summoned for Guest60
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16:58:16 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84154&oldid=84153 * Dominicentek * (-51)
16:59:18 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84155&oldid=84154 * Dominicentek * (-19)
17:03:27 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84156&oldid=84155 * Dominicentek * (+17)
17:06:06 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84157&oldid=84126 * Dominicentek * (-11) /* F */
17:07:32 <esowiki> <fizzie> I don't know what could be the problem with registration -- as recently as earlier today "ProtoBit" seemed to be able to register.
17:09:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> There's that Befunge captcha, of course. But it uses a relatively limited subset, I imagine any online Befunge interpreter would correctly execute it.
17:12:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, as long as it has sufficiently large stack cells, anyway. Possibly there's a toy one somewhere that uses three-digit decimal numbers or whatnot.
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17:27:30 <esowiki> <Guest6018> Hi, is anyone able to help me make an account? I was guest60 before but I got disconnected
17:28:26 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84158&oldid=84156 * Dominicentek * (+41)
17:36:23 <esowiki> <oerjan> . o O ( this isn't going to work )
17:38:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ultlang * New user account
17:40:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84159&oldid=84141 * Ultlang * (+210) /* Introductions */
17:43:37 <esowiki> [[Delta Salein Ao]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84160 * Ultlang * (+177) Created page with "Delta Salein Ao, Delta Salein or is a programming language created by Ultlang. [[Category:Languages]][[Category:2021]][[Category:Cell-based]][[Category:Output only]]"
17:44:36 <esowiki> [[Delta Salein Ao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84161&oldid=84160 * Ultlang * (+59) yeaf
17:48:31 <esowiki> <Guest6018> How can I translate the Befudge code to make an account?
17:49:26 <esowiki> <oerjan> `befunge does this work?
17:49:29 <esowiki> <HackEso> befunge? No such file or directory
17:50:01 <esowiki> <oerjan> Guest6018: any befunge interpreter should work
17:50:29 <esowiki> <Guest6018> to make an account it says:
17:50:31 <esowiki> <Guest6018> To protect the wiki against automated account creation, we kindly ask you to answer the question that appears below (more info):
17:50:31 <esowiki> <Guest6018> Which number does this Befunge code output: 9646332815>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
17:50:38 <esowiki> <oerjan> `! befunge 9646332815>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
17:50:58 <esowiki> <Guest6018> oh! that's handy!
17:51:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kylem73 * New user account
17:52:38 <esowiki> <oerjan> . o O ( now for the second step )
17:52:40 <esowiki> <fizzie> Oh, I didn't even think of them bots.
17:53:51 <esowiki> <fizzie> But there's a number of online Befunge interpreters. We link to at least one from the Befunge article.
17:54:15 <esowiki> <oerjan> does the captcha link to the Befunge article?
17:54:56 <esowiki> <fizzie> Although for some unfathomable reason all of them do this weird two-step procedure where, after you've input the program, you need to first click on an unintuitively labeled button ("Show", or "Init", or "To interpreter mode"; three real examples) before you can actually click on the intuitively labeled one ("Run") to execute it.
17:55:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84162&oldid=84159 * Kylem73 * (+160)
17:55:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> I tried to make the captcha link to the Befunge article but MediaWiki does not allow HTML embedded in the captcha question.
17:55:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> That's also why the code is typeset in a proportional font, which is pretty sacrilegious.
17:56:48 <esowiki> <fizzie> There is a link from the captcha page to [[Special:Captcha/help]] that could be edited to contain a link to the Befunge article, but I wonder if anyone would actually successfully navigate through all that.
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18:21:34 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84163&oldid=84083 * Grs * (+1037) Added changes (NOT IN CODE)
18:23:43 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84164&oldid=84163 * Grs * (+18)
18:53:55 <esowiki> [[AHHH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84165 * Kylem73 * (+4514) first save
18:55:43 <esowiki> [[AHHH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84166&oldid=84165 * Kylem73 * (-27) not pseudonatural
18:57:48 <esowiki> [[AHHH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84167&oldid=84166 * Kylem73 * (+16)
18:58:59 <esowiki> [[AHHH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84168&oldid=84167 * Kylem73 * (+11) cell based
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19:50:16 <esowiki> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84169&oldid=84148 * Caenbe * (+0) /* Example */ Explanation was wrong
19:58:33 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84170&oldid=84158 * Dominicentek * (+0)
20:00:57 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84171&oldid=84170 * Dominicentek * (+0)
20:12:09 <esowiki> [[Delta Salein Ao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84172&oldid=84161 * Ultlang * (+412)
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20:32:36 <esowiki> [[Whitespace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84173&oldid=84066 * Andrewarchi * (-8) Update the Whitespace Corpus to the current URL
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21:14:59 <esowiki> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84174&oldid=84069 * Caenbe * (+9) /* Commands */ Appears to be more accurate (again, from looking at examples)
21:16:34 <esowiki> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84175&oldid=84174 * Caenbe * (+191) Computational class
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21:31:18 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84176 * S1(210) * (+6488) created page
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21:34:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Movesum]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84177 * Caenbe * (+310) Created talk page
21:39:32 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84178&oldid=84176 * S1(210) * (-3)
21:42:00 <esowiki> [[Andrew Phillips]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84179 * S1(210) * (+192) Created page with "'''Andrew Phillips''' is a programmer and esolang author. He has created the languages [[DeBruijn]] and [[Forwards]]. He contributes on this wiki as [[User:S1(210)]]. ..."
21:42:53 <esowiki> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84180&oldid=83645 * S1(210) * (-3) change user page link to author page link
21:44:10 <esowiki> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84181&oldid=83549 * S1(210) * (+25)
21:46:04 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84182&oldid=84178 * S1(210) * (+7)
21:46:44 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84183&oldid=84182 * S1(210) * (+13) /* The let Clause */
21:49:54 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84184&oldid=84183 * S1(210) * (-20) /* Style */
21:51:06 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84185&oldid=84184 * S1(210) * (+0) /* Abstraction */
22:18:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84186&oldid=84157 * Zero player rodent * (+25)
23:33:49 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84187&oldid=84164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Commands */ Fmt table
23:35:32 <esowiki> [[Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84188&oldid=75830 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Syntax and Semantics */ Fix example (thanks to Caenbe)
23:38:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84189&oldid=84177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+326) Reply
23:53:23 <esowiki> <zzo38> I found that Amiga has sound modulation. Why the MOD format does not include this command (perhaps the 8xx command)?
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00:09:39 <esowiki> [[05ab1e]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84190 * Monochromeninja * (+20) Just a redirect.
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01:25:24 <esowiki> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84191 * Caenbe * (+1656) Added PMMN conversion
01:29:11 <esowiki> [[Blues machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84192&oldid=75036 * Caenbe * (+311) Added TC proof
01:32:09 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84193&oldid=84185 * S1(210) * (+14) /* Feature Specification */
01:36:08 <esowiki> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84194&oldid=72857 * TheCoderPro * (+759)
01:36:51 <esowiki> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84195&oldid=84194 * TheCoderPro * (+45) /* Instructions */
01:46:04 <esowiki> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84196&oldid=84191 * Caenbe * (+24) Back button
01:46:42 <esowiki> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84197&oldid=84195 * TheCoderPro * (+514) /* Instructions */
01:47:47 <esowiki> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84198&oldid=84196 * Caenbe * (-1) Fixed mistake
01:48:00 <esowiki> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84199&oldid=84198 * Caenbe * (-2)
01:49:28 <esowiki> [[User:TheCoderPro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84200 * TheCoderPro * (+5) Created page with "hello"
01:49:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:TheCoderPro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84201 * TheCoderPro * (+69) Created page with "HI -~~~"
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01:59:32 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84202&oldid=84186 * MartinAsdf * (+15) added stackomp
02:03:21 <esowiki> [[Blues machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84203&oldid=84192 * Caenbe * (+43) The author wrote the interpreter, so I assume this was intended.
02:05:42 <esowiki> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84204&oldid=84199 * Caenbe * (-3) Of course, I'm so used to Python
02:06:00 <esowiki> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84205&oldid=84204 * Caenbe * (+1)
02:55:39 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84206&oldid=84121 * Caenbe * (+270)
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03:39:04 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84207&oldid=82771 * Caenbe * (-1) /* List of OISCs */ The blues machine page does not say commands are memory-mapped, and the implementation (written by the creator) does not do it
04:06:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:BytePushCore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84208&oldid=19121 * TheCoderPro * (+122)
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08:20:35 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84209&oldid=84003 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+48) /* Calculator */
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11:36:57 <esowiki> [[User:Dominicentek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84210 * Dominicentek * (+34) Created page with "Hi there! I made: * [[FolderCode]]"
13:02:35 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84211&oldid=76593 * Jedgrei * (+0)
13:11:01 <esowiki> <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
13:13:35 <esowiki> <HackEso> cat: cat: No such file or directory
13:13:56 <esowiki> <HackEso> ELF............>...../......@.................@.8..@.........@.......@.......@.......h......h..................................................................................................................... ....... ....... ......A......A.....................p.......p.......p................................P......P......P......................................................................
13:14:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> what was the command to see cources of other commands?
13:15:06 <esowiki> <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
13:18:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: for commands that are implemented as shell scripts or similar, yes, you can use cat or cbt or /bin/cat
13:18:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: the user-defined commands are in /hackenv/bin
13:19:03 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: there's also a whatis command
13:19:08 <esowiki> <HackEso> ?(1hackeso) - print wisdom by name \ ?(8lambdabot) - compose tree of lambdabot commands
13:19:16 <esowiki> <HackEso> w(1) - Show who is logged on and what they are doing. \ w(1hackeso) - print random wisdom matching a string
13:19:22 <esowiki> <HackEso> myth//A myth is a female moth. \ 1295) <boily> (there's also that thing with the small yellow guys that I refuse to aknowledge, and nobody has any proof I went to the theatre to watch it.)
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13:29:20 <esowiki> <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ CMD=`echo -n "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG="$(echo -n "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-)" \ exec $HACKENV/ibin/$CMD "$ARG$2"
13:29:56 <esowiki> <HackEso> cat $HACKENV/bin/"$1"
13:33:20 <esowiki> <HackEso> cruella? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:50:33 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84212&oldid=84075 * Batata * (+7913)
13:53:21 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84213&oldid=84171 * Dominicentek * (+117) /* Compiler, Runtime and Interpreter */
14:01:34 <esowiki> [[Numeric Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84214&oldid=43262 * Caenbe * (+190) Cats and short blurb about the computational class
14:13:34 <esowiki> <b_jonas> does any Pokemon game have a nethack-like extinction mechanism where if you kill a lot of a certain species of pokemon then it will no longer get generated as random encounter wild pokemon?
14:13:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and if so, what is the earliest generation that has such a mechanic?
14:13:52 <esowiki> <Taneb> Not to my knowlege
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16:03:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Luduk * New user account
16:08:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84215&oldid=84162 * Luduk * (+264) Luduk joins the party! Hope you've got pizza!
16:19:04 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84216&oldid=84187 * Grs * (+352)
16:19:49 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84217&oldid=84216 * Grs * (-48)
16:22:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84218&oldid=84202 * Kylem73 * (+11) added AHHH
16:24:31 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84219&oldid=84217 * Grs * (+91)
16:25:48 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84220&oldid=83546 * Kylem73 * (+52) added AHHH
16:28:28 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84221&oldid=84219 * Grs * (+49)
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17:08:59 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84223&oldid=84212 * Grs * (+198) /* Implementations */ OLNMLN
17:12:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84224&oldid=84215 * Sawcce * (+251) /* Introductions */
17:20:15 <esowiki> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84225&oldid=83978 * ResU * (+79)
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17:57:54 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84228&oldid=84213 * Dominicentek * (+194)
18:04:53 <esowiki> [[Twitty]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84229 * Luduk * (+870) twitty, the unreliable
18:05:08 <esowiki> [[Twitty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84230&oldid=84229 * Luduk * (+4)
18:06:14 <esowiki> [[Twitty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84231&oldid=84230 * ResU * (+18)
18:12:04 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84232&oldid=84226 * ResU * (+40)
18:13:43 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84233&oldid=84232 * ResU * (+0)
18:36:17 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84234&oldid=84228 * Dominicentek * (-73) /* Version 1.1 */
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19:49:32 <esowiki> [[Nu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84235 * Caenbe * (+2990) Created Nu
19:50:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84236&oldid=84218 * Caenbe * (+9) /* N */ Added Nu
19:51:34 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84237&oldid=84206 * Caenbe * (+50)
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19:55:38 <esowiki> <Taneb> https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2021/06/1920-2020-and-a-20000-prize-announcing-the-s-combinator-challenge/
20:00:30 <esowiki> <salpynx> That is an interesting link.
20:06:23 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Taneb: that will either devolve in nobody caring, or another weird game of defining what it means like with the cellular automaton.
20:07:59 <esowiki> <Taneb> b_jonas: if it's towards the latter then it may well be done by the people here
20:14:26 <esowiki> <salpynx> I'm now thinking through whether BCT can be done with S, and knowing the specific obstacle is for not being able to would be interesting to know
20:24:36 <esowiki> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84238&oldid=84235 * Caenbe * (+10) /* Graph rewriting */
20:24:49 <esowiki> <salpynx> Disproving it would be interesting too, esp. for $20K
20:37:34 <esowiki> <Corbin> I'm not sure how to prove it in a way Wolfram would accept, but in general to be Turing-complete means to have a Turing category, which means to be Cartesian closed, which means that K needs to exist in order to delete/forget unused values and have constant functions.
20:38:55 <esowiki> <Corbin> I wonder if there's a beautiful Smullyan proof somewhere that S can't build K. I can imagine a Hofstadter-style informal proof which shows that S can't ever tear down structures like K can.
20:47:32 <esowiki> <salpynx> the S version of K presumably would shuffle arguments away to a 'discard zone', out of the way and effectively dropped. Is there any possible space for an infinite use discard pile with S?
20:52:28 <esowiki> <Corbin> Hm, maybe this suggests that S can't implement I alone. That would be pretty damning.
20:54:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Corbin: hmm, let me check the bird book. I know it at least states that it can't implement K, but I don't know if there's a proof given
20:55:22 <esowiki> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84239&oldid=84209 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-20) Edited segments of the wiki.
20:55:28 <esowiki> <b_jonas> chapter 12 is the relevant one
20:56:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and then chapter 18\
20:59:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I don't think it give a full proof for this
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21:03:33 <esowiki> <Corbin> No worries, thanks for looking.
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21:12:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> you might be able to find a proof somewhere else, or reconstruct it from as much as Smullyan reveals there
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21:15:53 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Corbin: do you need a summary of what he does say there that implies this?
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21:31:09 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84240&oldid=84222 * Grs * (+17) /* Commands */
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22:15:36 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84241&oldid=84193 * S1(210) * (+4868) /* Feature Specification */ Complete Rewrite
22:21:03 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84242&oldid=84241 * S1(210) * (+466) /* Reference */ reformatting...
22:21:30 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84243&oldid=83530 * Caenbe * (+281) /* Mathematics */ Idea
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22:33:45 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84244&oldid=84242 * S1(210) * (-133) /* Nonarithmetic Built-ins */ reformatting... eugh
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22:53:13 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84245&oldid=84244 * S1(210) * (+1264) /* Arithmetic Built-ins */ Finally done reformatting?
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23:01:17 <esowiki> <b_jonas> `? Earthblight Ganon
23:01:19 <esowiki> <HackEso> Earthblight Ganon? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:32:41 <esowiki> <HackEso> Free Hero Mesh? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:39:50 <esowiki> [[Twitty]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84246&oldid=84231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* Important note */ Categories
23:43:12 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84247&oldid=84233 * ResU * (+474)
23:43:38 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84248&oldid=84243 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-28) /* Mathematics */ Link
23:47:02 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84249&oldid=84247 * ResU * (-6)
23:51:18 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84250&oldid=84249 * ResU * (+28)
23:56:31 <esowiki> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84251&oldid=84238 * Caenbe * (+831) Added 3 Star Programmer ex. and details about tree
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00:18:23 <esowiki> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84252&oldid=84251 * Caenbe * (-103) /* Graph rewriting */ This may not be true
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00:21:50 <esowiki> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84253&oldid=84252 * Caenbe * (+3) /* Examples */ ;;;
00:32:37 <esowiki> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84254&oldid=84253 * Caenbe * (+136) /* Graph rewriting */ It is
00:56:57 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84255&oldid=84250 * ResU * (+356)
01:07:59 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84256&oldid=84255 * ResU * (+26)
01:11:15 <esowiki> <Corbin> b_jonas: Oh wow, glorious work. I pulled out my copy of the bird book, and indeed, kestrels are not allowed in Bravura's forest!
01:20:50 <esowiki> <Corbin> Okay, yeah. Smullyan points out that S is "duplicative", using arguments multiple times. The linear calculus, BCI, can't build S.
01:21:02 <esowiki> <ski> <CTCP>ACTION first thought the bird book was Bird & de Moor<CTCP>
01:21:23 <esowiki> <ski> yes, and `S' can't build `K'
01:21:29 <esowiki> <Corbin> Similarly, S can't build K, because K is "cancellative" and completely forgets an argument.
01:22:05 <esowiki> <Corbin> I found https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-444-87508-2.50017-4 which is paywalled but suggests that this is so well-known that they try to use BCSI to *approximate* K-like behavior while admitting that K itself is not buildable.
01:24:17 <esowiki> <Corbin> ski: Oh, sorry. The context is that Wolfram offered a cash prize for anybody who can show that S is (Turing-?) complete. But I was sure that the bird book had a disproof, and b_jonas did the hard work of looking it up.
01:24:48 <esowiki> <ski> mm, yea. (just finished reading that article)
01:42:46 <esowiki> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84257&oldid=83239 * Enoua5 * (+198) Reformat command table
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02:03:44 <esowiki> [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84258&oldid=84257 * Enoua5 * (+2083) Add explanations to all examples
02:04:19 <esowiki> <salpynx> Wolfram already says any TCness has to be encoded in the non-terminating S combinator evolutions, so a direct K build is already ruled out
02:04:50 <esowiki> <zzo38> Pokemon Card GB2 does not list the previous stages of cards in play
02:04:52 * ski . o O ( gnyrx ? )
02:08:50 <esowiki> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84259&oldid=84258 * Enoua5 * (+449) Add section explaining memory layout
02:10:45 <esowiki> <salpynx> even Ix will need to be a non terminating encoding of x, so Kxy = Ix in some non terminating way which can be decoded by something that is not universal itself
02:13:06 <esowiki> <salpynx> relevant quote from the announcement > And by “emulate”, what we mean here is that a suitable “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” can be found that will allow any evolution in the system being emulated to be mapped to a corresponding evolution in the S combinator system.
02:14:36 <esowiki> <Corbin> salpynx: Can you explain more what you see? I would naively and reductively assume that the I combinator simply isn't represented here; there's no way to emulate its (lack of) evolution.
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02:16:21 <esowiki> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84260&oldid=84254 * Caenbe * (+13) Better wording
02:19:27 <esowiki> <salpynx> It's not directly representable, but I guess that's the question: can it 'emulate' K's "cutting things down" via some kind of encoding? It'd have to include 'junk' data, which would have to be ignored by the decoder in the final step to get the result
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02:20:07 <esowiki> <salpynx> more of Wolfram's writing linked to from somewhere in the announcement: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2020/12/combinators-a-centennial-view/#the-world-of-the-s-combinator
02:24:15 <esowiki> <salpynx> Naively I wondered if you could use both sides of every K in every computation, then pick the 'real' one at the end. That'd be super inefficient with the combinatorics, and I don't know how you'd pick the correct version at the end. and it's probably more complicated than 'doing things twice' with K arguments
02:28:53 <esowiki> <salpynx> I guess my take is that a working emulated K in this hypothetical system must accumulate 'junk' which can be 'easily' discerned from the result of computation by the hypothetical decoder. Examining whether that kind of mechanism is possible or not is an avenue of attack.
02:30:07 <esowiki> <salpynx> My gut feel is any 'junk' would get smeared out through the whole combinatoric expression over time, and separating it won't be possible without doing an equivalent computation
02:34:02 <esowiki> <salpynx> also that Wolfram is talking about some meta computation requiring those “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” external parts to the system, and that's possibly, as was said above by @b_jonas: "another weird game of defining what it means"
02:36:58 <esowiki> <salpynx> I can imagine a giant stream of combinator S's which take a single K as an argument, and duplicates and places the Ks where they need to go for reproducing any algorithm. No idea if that's helpful, but it's playing with separating parts of the system
02:37:31 <esowiki> <Corbin> Although we know something about their shape, at least. The bounded-time description should lead (by a handwave) to the encoder and decoder being katamorphisms.
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02:39:33 <esowiki> <Corbin> But note that the encoder can be as simple as the identity function, if we're targeting SKI, so the question is whether there's some composition of S alone which yields K and I. IOW I think we get back up to what's been covered.
02:42:16 <esowiki> <Corbin> Oh wow, https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/227904/solve-the-halting-problem-for-s-combinatory-logic implies that it's not Turing-complete. Reading the paper right now, but this could be it.
02:47:43 <esowiki> <salpynx> That's a good find.
02:48:53 <esowiki> <salpynx> I think Wolfram know that though, and that's what I was picking up from his writing. To paraphrase what I think he's asking: Taking the infinite set of identifiable non-halting S Combinator expressions, is there some encoding which can give rise to an unresolvable halting problem in their evolutions?
02:49:56 <esowiki> <salpynx> (if there are not infinite non-halting evolutions, then it's really busted)
02:51:08 <esowiki> <Corbin> Let the codec be a genuine equivalence computable in poly time. Then wouldn't the codec's existence contradict Rice's Theorem?
02:51:15 <esowiki> <salpynx> Re-reading my paraphrase, that does sound sketchy, but I think that's what Wolfram is really asking.
02:51:38 <esowiki> <Corbin> I don't want to unfairly strawman Wolfram's question, but I'm really not sure if there's more to it than that.
02:53:56 <esowiki> <Corbin> Meh, "genuine equivalence" is vague and wrong. This isn't yet airtight, but it's suggestive.
02:58:52 <esowiki> <imode> wolfram's prize got its way to here, eh.
02:59:30 <esowiki> <imode> for S to be TC on its own it would have to re-order the expression so that past work doesn't get in the way of current work. because it can't, it's not TC. more rigorous proofs of that exist.
03:11:12 <esowiki> <Corbin> Makes sense. It sounds like there's three different ways to slice that S isn't TC: S can't even implement K or I, Halting for S is decideable, and now imode's point about divergence and order of operations.
03:13:42 <esowiki> <imode> it's probably equivalent to a pushdown.
03:13:49 <esowiki> <Corbin> Unrelated: https://github.com/TartanLlama/vizh Nice!
03:34:41 <esowiki> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84261&oldid=84181 * S1(210) * (+346)
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04:15:45 <esowiki> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84262&oldid=84261 * S1(210) * (+67)
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04:20:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84263&oldid=84236 * S1(210) * (+15) /* F */ added [[Forwards]]
04:55:12 <esowiki> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84264&oldid=84180 * S1(210) * (+40) making page conform more to esolang's style guide
04:57:04 <esowiki> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84265&oldid=84264 * S1(210) * (+0) /* External Resources */
04:58:01 <esowiki> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84266&oldid=84265 * S1(210) * (+1) /* External resources */
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06:10:34 <esowiki> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84267&oldid=84260 * Caenbe * (+595) Added Binary Nu
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10:17:53 <esowiki> [[RGB4D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84268 * Magnogen * (+3837) First commit
10:29:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sekoia * New user account
10:35:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84269&oldid=84224 * Sekoia * (+102) Introduction
10:36:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84270&oldid=84269 * Sekoia * (+54) Fix messup
10:58:12 <esowiki> [[RGB4D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84271&oldid=84268 * Magnogen * (-2) ProtoBit
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11:10:11 <esowiki> [[Partitioned]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84272 * Sekoia * (+1378) Partitioned is a language based around partitions of 255 bytes that share a single byte.
11:11:06 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84273&oldid=84263 * Sekoia * (+18)
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11:12:40 <esowiki> [[Partitioned]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84274&oldid=84272 * Sekoia * (+0) fix category typo
11:24:08 <esowiki> [[Tower]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84275 * Sawcce * (+2933) Created page with "= Tower = Tower is an esoteric language meaning it is designed to be fun to use or a headache to program in! This page is a copy of the walkthrough of the Tower also present..."
11:25:03 <esowiki> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84276&oldid=84275 * Sawcce * (-2) /* Tower */
11:25:51 <esowiki> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84277&oldid=84276 * Sawcce * (+42) /* Tower */
11:30:45 <esowiki> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84278&oldid=84277 * Sawcce * (+726) /* Commands */
11:53:36 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84279&oldid=84256 * ResU * (+138)
12:00:27 <esowiki> [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84280&oldid=58626 * DeeBo * (+73) /* External resources */
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12:20:04 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84281&oldid=84279 * ResU * (+164)
12:20:08 <esowiki> [[Partitioned]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84282&oldid=84274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Cats, stub, WIP
12:33:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Meloons * New user account
12:45:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84283&oldid=84270 * Meloons * (+200) My description
12:47:00 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84284&oldid=84281 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Cat
13:27:20 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Corbin: out of curiosity, is your IRC nick supposed to be from a bird too?
13:29:07 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and if so, is it a combinator bird?
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13:43:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> wait, so the norwegian/danish alphabet is supposed to have the last letters in the order "z æ ø å", but the swedish/finnish alphabet in the incompatible order "z å ä ö"? that decides my earlier question about encoding IRC nicks, the norwegian one is more natural because then the iso-646 encoding order matches the alphabet. but the different alphabetic order is still weird, I wonder how that got
13:44:28 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I should have noticed this earlier because I've seen the swedish alphabetic order enough times and did look up the iso-646 encodings and should have noticed that it's in the wrong order
13:50:46 <esowiki> <nakilon> Russian alphabet ends with letters that are like a trash hidden in the corner of the room ШЩЪЫЬ and then suddenly perfectly normal vowels ЭЮЯ
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13:59:06 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: 1. "Ю" is supposed to be a "normal vowel" but it's also one of the rarest letters, though admittedly "Ъ" is even rarer. I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash though. 2. the latin alphabet has trash letters too, in fact even the greek one has some at the end, and holes in the middle for the purpose of gemmatria, to preserve the original phoenician order. the hebrew alphabet is the
13:59:12 <esowiki> <b_jonas> only extant one that does not have trash at the end.
14:03:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> "I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash" -- the word traSH is literally ends with Ш; you can see that the "trash consonants ending" actually starts with Ф consonant: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
14:04:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> Ъ and Ь aren't even either vowel or consonants -- they have no sound and words can start with them
14:06:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> also you can see the Ж being the most rate in the "non-trash half of the alphabet" -- together with Ш they have a rule "can't place Ы after Ж и Ш" (mnemonically known as "ЖИ и ШИ пиши через И")
14:10:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> such rules feel like a waste of entropy -- similar in English only U can go after Q and it's so weird that we didn't even learn it as a rule and I only realised it when I was like 20
14:11:46 <esowiki> <b_jonas_> nakilon: were you 20 before or after Iraq was featured in the news a lot?
14:12:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> also Ж and Щ are the most wide letters in any font
14:14:11 <esowiki> <riv> http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/phistomefel-s-theorem-t38410.html
14:16:27 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: yeah, I started to make a 6 pixel tall font, with variable width, where most characters are at most 3 pixels wide plus a 1 pixel gap (the gap is omitted between some pairs of characters), but because some letters are hard to draw that way, I have added a three-way option for whether "MNm" are all wide, or "Mm" are wide but "N" is narrow, or every ascii letter is narrow. these options also
14:16:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> affect the russian letters, and indeed the three pixel wide versions are very ugly and mostly unrecognizable.
14:16:50 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I should eventually finish that tiny font and use it for some esoteric project
14:17:15 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I won't use it for everyday work, I have a large-sized fixed width font for that that I should improve
14:17:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> (the basics are fine but I have to add some new characters and redo the hastily done greek letters)
14:17:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> OCR developers might hate Ы letter
14:22:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> can't find English word for https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%B2%D1%8F%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82
14:23:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> ^ my father was связист in the army -- it's where you send and receive in Morze
14:24:16 <esowiki> <nakilon> so for speed considerations they were told to use Ижица (V) symbol for Ж because Ж was too big https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhitsa
14:30:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> Taneb yeah, probably this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signaller "Signallers, a.k.a. Combat Signallers"
14:30:37 <esowiki> <nakilon> idk what's the exact difference between radio and signalling, радист and связист
14:31:05 <esowiki> <Taneb> Perhaps signallers are also trained with lamps or flags or something
14:31:21 <esowiki> <Taneb> Whereas radio operators have some electric engineering training?
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14:32:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's weird to use the word "signal" in two so different cases
14:34:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> yes, he was into the https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE (again no link to English wiki ..() that is about fixing and creating electronics yourself
14:36:02 <esowiki> <nakilon> basically he used only radio technologies, no visual stuff, the military base was underground actually
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14:37:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> I would expect the English article to be named "Hobby electronics"
14:38:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_corps
14:45:00 <esowiki> <Corbin> b_jonas: Ha, that's a fun idea! Curiously, it seems that Smullyan didn't use any corvids (blackbirds, magpies, ravens, rooks, crows, bluejays, etc.) for their bird list.
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15:02:30 <esowiki> <keegan> I should finish learning morse
15:05:44 <esowiki> [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84285&oldid=83193 * Zero player rodent * (+0)
15:06:27 <esowiki> [[PaRappa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84286&oldid=84285 * Zero player rodent * (+2)
15:07:15 <esowiki> <keegan> in amateur radio it is common to use the letter N in place of the numeral 9, for speed (-. versus ----.)
15:08:55 <esowiki> <keegan> so for example a perfect signal report will be given as 5NN [..... -. -.] instead of 599 [..... ----. ----.] for a time savings of more than 50%
15:11:01 <esowiki> <keegan> in the US it is possible to select your callsign (subject to restrictions) and operators who do a lot of CW (morse) will try to get one with a low "weight"
15:11:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> hah, didn't know that
15:13:08 <esowiki> <nakilon> imagine IRC transmitted in morze
15:13:43 <esowiki> <HackEso> -- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ...- . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. .. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- ..
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15:14:13 <esowiki> <HackEso> morse? No such file or directory
15:24:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:PaRappa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84287 * Caenbe * (+150) Created talk page
15:27:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> can't figure out what animal the URSU is
15:33:31 <esowiki> <fizzie> Surely it's MURSU, not URSU.
15:33:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> (And that's a walrus.)
15:34:38 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think that's from the lead paragraph of https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mursu
15:35:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84288&oldid=84143 * Grs * (-995) Replaced content with "Do you have any ideas to add something? -~~~ ~~~~~"
15:35:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84289&oldid=84288 * Grs * (-107) Blanked the page
15:39:53 <esowiki> <oerjan> fizzie: just looking through the logs and noticed that the new "has changed hostmask" showed someone's pre-cloaking host, which may be a bit unfortunate (although i think that means they're not following the advice of using sasl?)
15:41:37 <esowiki> <HackEso> cat: /hackenv/bin/morse: No such file or directory
15:41:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: URSU is probably a bear; I don't know about MURSU
15:41:50 <esowiki> <oerjan> shikhin: that was you by the way, you should use sasl
15:42:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's some wrong char in that string
15:42:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> leading non printable char
15:42:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> it makes all online decaders fail to decode it
15:42:35 <esowiki> <b_jonas> see https://xkcd.com/2381/
15:43:09 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "Smullyan didn't use any corvids" wait really? I thoguht he did... let me look up the English list
15:43:43 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Corbin: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic says "Blackbird"
15:44:47 <esowiki> <nakilon> `` ruby -e "p '18:13:43 <HackEso> -- ..- .-.'.dump"
15:44:49 <esowiki> <HackEso> "\"18:13:43 <HackEso> \\u200B-- ..- .-.\""
15:45:01 <esowiki> <oerjan> nakilon: it's the invisible space which HackEso prepends if the output starts with non-alphanumerics
15:45:10 <esowiki> <oerjan> it's to avoid triggering other bots
15:46:52 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84290&oldid=84237 * Caenbe * (-173)
15:47:53 <esowiki> <Corbin> b_jonas: Oh, nice, a bluebird of bluebirds. I guess I'm just a fancier sort of composition.
15:48:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oerjan: I still think this sasl thing is sort of a scam. I like SASL, but advertising it because some people's clients are broken and will join channels without waiting for nickserv identify to succeed is silly. waiting for nickserv to reply that you're identified, or waiting for the server to tell you your hostmask has changed if you do it for a cloak, isn't actually easier than doing the SASL stuff
15:48:10 <esowiki> <b_jonas> s/easier/harder/
15:48:36 <esowiki> <oerjan> b_jonas: automatically?
15:49:10 <esowiki> <oerjan> i think you may be biased by being a person who finds programming trivial hth
15:49:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it's the same sort of argument that leads to telling others that you shouldn't send notices because other people's clients are broken and render them wrong, or shouldn't send color codes because they annoy other people becuase their client shows them in ugly colors or whatever.
15:49:55 <esowiki> <shikhin> oerjan: Yeah, whoops, too lazy to set it up just yet, but thanks.
15:50:02 <esowiki> <nakilon> I won't call ability to join channels without identifying "being broken"
15:50:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's some flaw in the cloacking concept
15:51:27 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oerjan: someone has to put the SASL thing in the irc clients too, just as much as the rest. you can say that it's worth because it works the same on multiple networks, so it's easier to implement because of that. in particular, nickserv id works backwards between libera/freenode and oftc. that would be a good argument, except for that if you try SASL on a server that doesn't understand SASL, you'll get
15:51:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> a hang. but that's not the argument they're making.
15:51:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> if your IRC client doesn't know SASL, and you don't know programming, it's just as hard to teach it SASL
15:53:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> just don't disconnect from the server *shrug*
15:53:17 <esowiki> <oerjan> you're right, i was comparing apples and oranges
15:53:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> if you "know programming" you can set up a BNC and probably can find a machine with reliable network connection
15:53:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> they could also make the argument that someone could guess when they'll reconnect after a disconnect, and WHO their hostmask before they rejoin the channel
15:54:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I'm not against SASL, only against the stupid arguments that some IRC folks make about it
15:54:50 <esowiki> <b_jonas> (and yes, freenode also requires SASL for some remote addresses as a way to control spam)
15:57:08 <esowiki> <oerjan> so ideally WHO shouldn't be possible until the SASL has gone through either...
15:57:24 <esowiki> <oerjan> no idea whether the servers enforce that
15:58:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, WHO isn't possible before SASL because your connection doesn't have a nick that WHO could target, nor a channel it's joined to
15:59:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> SASL is before you choose a NICK
16:00:17 <esowiki> <nakilon> is there any standard on "Tags" in the unicode table? like if I ask for "looks like a dot" and it would come up with . and · and •
16:03:50 <esowiki> <keegan_> 08:53 < nakilon> just don't disconnect from the server *shrug*
16:03:55 <esowiki> <keegan_> in soviet russia, server disconnects from YOU!
16:04:06 <esowiki> <keegan_> (been a lot of that this morning...)
16:05:15 <esowiki> <keegan_> are the sore losers at freenode packeting libera?
16:05:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> this matches too many chars that are not dots https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=[:name=/\bDOT$/:]
16:05:46 <esowiki> <keegan_> or is it just growing pains
16:15:19 <esowiki> <nakilon> this utility gives different sets of analogues for two different dots
16:15:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp?a=.&r=None
16:15:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=None
16:18:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> there should be some Unicode similarity graph, probably made manually
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16:20:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> keegan_: no, it's spammers who spam both freenode and libera
16:20:47 <esowiki> <b_jonas> they target both, or whichever networks/servers are the most popular
16:21:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> the sad part is when the spammers spam on freenode, then people go complain in #libera , even though the libera ops can't do anything to stop spam on freenode
16:21:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so please don't do that
16:24:28 <esowiki> <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, I guess I could remove the old one from the rendered view, or just omit the event entirely; it's not a super-interesting one.
16:24:57 <esowiki> <fizzie> The previous QUIT-and-JOIN combo contained the same information, I just wasn't rendering the hostname in QUITs (or JOINs).
16:25:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> also the https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp tool can't find the char that looks like 'ф' that I saw somewhere just few minutes ago
16:26:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> while the https://shapecatcher.com/ found it immediately https://i.imgur.com/STqB0fG.png
16:28:15 <esowiki> <fizzie> Something I've always found slightly odd about CertFP auth is that the client needs to explicitly invoke SASL EXTERNAL to make the identification happen pre-login, even though it's not like there's any fundamental theoretical reason the server couldn't just... make it happen.
16:32:06 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: which one? ϕ (greek alternate) or a math or APL symbol?
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16:33:25 <esowiki> <nakilon> in that test search case I was looking exactly for the one that shapecatcher.com recognized
16:35:38 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: or ɸ the phonetic symbol?
16:38:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> "latin small letter qp digraph"
16:38:34 <esowiki> <nakilon> I expected the tool at unicode.org to give me it if I ask it for ф or Ф
16:38:47 <esowiki> <nakilon> because they are what I'm able to type
16:39:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: it does if you ask for ϕ
16:40:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> but I don't have a way to type it
16:41:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> opt+ф types 'd', opt+a types 'å'
16:43:00 <esowiki> [[Stop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84291&oldid=82999 * Caenbe * (+38) Cat
16:43:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> those shapecatcher guys could make an excellent similarity graph
16:59:54 <esowiki> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84292&oldid=84267 * Caenbe * (+1) /* Binary Nu */
17:00:46 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "<nakilon> but I don't have a way to type it" =>
17:00:50 <esowiki> <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
17:00:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> copy it from http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
17:01:03 <esowiki> <b_jonas> from the greek block
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17:17:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:OLNMLN]]": Author request: blanked by only commenter
17:35:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> I would not know it's in greek block if you didn't tell me
17:41:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it's a fricking greek letter phi
17:41:07 <esowiki> <b_jonas> how would it not be in the greek block?
17:41:16 <esowiki> <b_jonas> yes, it's an unnecessary second character for the same letter that already has one
17:41:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> there's a tradition there of it appearing twice in some character sets, an old enough tradition, so it has to be represented twice in unicode
17:41:53 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and since that's an old enough tradition it was in the earliest versions of unicode in the 90s so it's in the greek block
17:42:48 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I can't even say it's wasting space, unlike some of the stuff that they put to the first (1<<12) code points, and yes, I was told that they hadn't invented utf-8 yet so they didn't know the first (1<<12) code points were special
17:43:23 <esowiki> <nakilon> I don't imagine greek phi with that link pointing up, only down
17:43:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> for me it's a letter ф
17:45:42 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: to me it seems like the one with the straight line is a printed/carved form and the one with the loop is the handwritten form, sort of like the italic vs roman forms of many of the latin/cyrillic letters, which is why it's odd that it's double-encoded, but the greek script doesn't do that for many letters, so phi and theta got singled out
17:46:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it's probably Knuth who popularized having both in the same font in the same book
17:48:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> also you write ф and phi differently -- in Russian it's like 8, you go up when switching from left half to right one, now like in phi where you just move right
17:49:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or perhaps it was Adobe, since one of their standard postscript fonts has both
17:49:53 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84293&oldid=82352 * Zero player rodent * (+98)
17:50:10 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: oh, you're saying that it's not actually similar to the russian phi so if you're searching for characters that look similar in appearance to the russian phi you wouldn't think to look in the greek block?
17:50:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> that makes more sense
17:52:34 <esowiki> <nakilon> that unicode.org tool does not give "qp digraph" for phi too
17:52:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> what qp digraph?
17:53:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/STqB0fG.png
17:53:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> (the second time I have a feeling you missed this link)
17:54:39 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I don't think I've ever seen that
17:54:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "Additions for Africanist linguistics
17:55:04 <esowiki> <b_jonas> " the unicode PDF says
17:55:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> but somehow I saw it just two hours ago
17:55:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> and then to test the unicode.org tool I tried to find it
17:55:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> there are a lot of such supposedly roman letters that are only used as either phonetic symbols or trying to make a transcription for africian languages by linguists
17:55:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> by asking to show me letters similar to ф
17:55:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> sure, they might exists but I ignore most of them unless they also happen to have some more common use
17:56:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> most of the latin extended C block is such rare letters; this one is in latin extended B which has some more normal stuff
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18:08:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> if I had the similarity graph I would make such tool that...
18:09:36 <esowiki> <oerjan> "Labial-uvular stops are much rarer, but have been found in three Mangbutu-Efe languages spoken in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Uganda: Mamvu, and Lese."
18:09:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> you type "dot" and it finds all these chars https://unicodelookup.com/#dot/1 then finds the one with the smallest distance sum to all the rest and lists all them sorted by distance to that one
18:10:17 <esowiki> <oerjan> i guess that's what those africanists are studying
18:10:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> ...printing all these chars one per line, filling the line by all the chars in unicode that look like them
18:11:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> (I mean not similarity graph but similarity matrix)
18:12:49 <esowiki> <oerjan> hm nope, it's apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_labiodental_plosive
18:13:10 <esowiki> <oerjan> _much_ less exotic
18:15:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> I have no idea what the "labiodental" mean but Afrika is Африка
18:15:42 <esowiki> [[RGB4D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84294&oldid=84271 * ProtoBit * (+763) Added truth machine program and some minor formatting improvements
18:16:10 <esowiki> <oerjan> nakilon: f actually is labiodental
18:16:26 <esowiki> <oerjan> although this symbol represents a stop, not a fricative
18:16:58 <esowiki> <oerjan> it means it's made with lips touching teeth
18:17:08 <esowiki> <riv> did anyone like my sudoku link?
18:17:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> bottom lip upper teech? I see
18:17:20 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84295&oldid=84273 * ProtoBit * (+12) Added RGB4D to the language list
18:18:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> my father loved solving sudoku
18:18:43 <esowiki> <oerjan> i used to but i'm out of practice
18:19:26 <esowiki> <nakilon> we were buying those newspapers and other printed things with them but he said they have too many digits already already filled in
18:20:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> so I've found that one guy in internet was collecting the sudoku boards that had the minimal number of digits shown, IIRC it was 18, and he had an archive of thousands of them
18:21:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> so I made my father a program that he launches and it makes a PNG file with next puzzle ready to be sent to printer
18:22:49 <esowiki> <nakilon> though I felt like he finds it to be less interesting than buying in a kiosk
18:23:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: print them on cheap low quality paper and give yours to the kiosk to sell them back to him?
18:23:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> sounds like a business idea
18:24:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> yeah, they can sell extra copies to others
19:38:08 <esowiki> <arseniiv> what do you do when Newton’s method doesn’t make the root more accurate when it appears it could add another decimal digit? The equation is polynomial, even a simple one: x^N − x − 1 = 0. I make numpy give me roots, pick the largest real one and try to make it better
19:39:14 <esowiki> <arseniiv> there’s at least one case when naive algorithm x ↦ (x + 1) ^ (1/N) makes x^N − x − 1 closer to zero than this approach
19:39:51 <esowiki> <arseniiv> N = 11 if I’m not mistaken
19:40:35 <esowiki> <arseniiv> ah, no, N = 11 is fine, two Newton iterations suffice
19:42:08 <esowiki> <arseniiv> though I don’t need to chase bits, I guess I’m fine with 1e−15 errors too
19:43:22 <esowiki> <arseniiv> finally some rain and thunder here
19:44:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> velik, good thing you don't have to deal with floating point right?
19:44:52 <esowiki> <arseniiv> seems improbable there was no major rain for two or more weeks. Usually the climate here is more humid in summer, I even despise rains sometimes, when the weather is cyclonic and cold and all that windy unsummery stuff
19:47:41 <esowiki> <b_jonas> arseniiv: is the magnitude of the derivative significantly less than 1 at the root?
19:47:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it should be, otherwise you shouldn't use Newton's method as is
19:48:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or something like that, that's probably not the right criteria, I'm bad at this
19:50:01 <esowiki> <arseniiv> b_jonas: gotta analyze, but I think it should be decent
19:53:17 <esowiki> <arseniiv> the derivative at the root is N − 1 + N x^−1, and as x > 1, that’s always > N − 1; for large N it’s asymptotically 2 N − 1 as x → 1
19:54:10 <esowiki> <arseniiv> so that’s float magic we’re to blame here
19:55:04 <esowiki> <arseniiv> also maybe the root values are okay and the error is more due to x^N − x − 1. I’ll check with a CAS maybe
20:10:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84296&oldid=84283 * Jetison333 * (+243) /* Introductions */
20:52:46 <esowiki> <b_jonas> arseniiv: ok, but I'm not sure that's actually the right condition
20:53:06 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so you may have to look up what the actual condition for stability is
20:53:35 <esowiki> <arseniiv> though I’m pretty satisfied as it is
20:53:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> arseniiv: by the way, you do know that reinventing the wheel for computing the root of a polynomial equation on the reals is in general a bad idea unless you're really good at numerical analysis, because there are existing good libraries for it, right? you can still do it for practice or learning
20:53:57 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or for esoteric purposees
20:55:54 <esowiki> <arseniiv> b_jonas: I know! I actually started with the existing numpy function for that and I still use it
20:56:38 <esowiki> <arseniiv> but two Newton iterations on top of it make things even better though, for better or for worse (actually, just a single one is necessary for large N)
20:57:04 <esowiki> <arseniiv> also it’s a headache to write your own numeric code in large quantities!
21:06:04 <esowiki> <zzo38> I did make Newton fractal before, which is based on Newton's method
21:18:43 <esowiki> [[A returns a]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84297 * Jetison333 * (+3768) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{wrongtitle|title=a{a}}} '''a{a}''' (pronounced a returns a) is an esolang that is based on recursion. A function is just a list of cases, and can be defined b..."
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21:27:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84298&oldid=84295 * Jetison333 * (+23) /* A */
21:28:15 <esowiki> [[User:Jetison333]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84299 * Jetison333 * (+82) Created page with "So far I've made one esolange, [[A returns a|a{a}]], but I hope to make more soon."
21:29:50 <esowiki> [[A returns a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84300&oldid=84297 * Jetison333 * (+1)
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22:30:25 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://ai.facebook.com/blog/nethack-learning-environment-to-advance-deep-reinforcement-learning/ might have some overlap with people on this channel too.
22:37:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> meh, wanted to make IRC morse encoder/decoder the only morse ruby gem that can encode Cyrillic is packaged in the wrong way (with dependencies lock file included) while one of the dependencies is made in the wrong way (has binary with a name 'console' that is conflicting)
22:38:48 <esowiki> <nakilon> yesterday I learned that the average length of working at Facebook is 8 months
22:40:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> (missed ", but" somewhere above)
22:45:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> when your repo is a dependency for 4500 other repos and all them don't install because you can't ./bin properly https://github.com/krisleech/wisper/issues/183
22:45:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> Does that average take internships into account too, I wonder.
22:47:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> it was in a "podcast" talk interview with a girl who's currently in some consulting about how to build things
23:03:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> you esoteric guys are infecting me
23:04:10 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I felt a sudden urge to spell "preemptive" with a diaræsis. I could suppress it this time, but it's worrying
23:05:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> Just coöperate with us and you won't get hurt.
23:06:50 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think I saw "coöperation" spelled that way in a book (of fiction) somewhat recently.
23:08:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> “So we’re competing against a fuel cell for the available oxygen?” Arsibalt asked. “Think of it as coöperation.” (Anathem, Neal Stephenson)
23:09:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: that doesn't work, "ö" and "ü" just look to me like it's an umlaut changing the vowel value rather than a diaresis to separate adjacent vowels, unless perhaps it's in French text where they look a bit more confusing (even though "ö" and "ü" are very rare in French in that context)
23:09:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but "ë" does look like it has a diaresis, because I don't see that one used as an umlaut often
23:10:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I'm not saying it never happens, but it's not as common as with "ö" and "ü"
23:10:28 <esowiki> <imode> what should the minimal resolution of a glyph be.
23:11:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, I do find myself forced to think of the Finnish ö (/ø/) sound whenever I see ö in "coöperation", and it does sound pretty silly.
23:11:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> imode: depends on the script, I am working on a 6 pixel tall tiny latin font, but I'd never consider a 6 pixel tall kanji or hangul or vietnamese font, those just need more space
23:11:46 <esowiki> <imode> <CTCP>ACTION prefers powers of two.<CTCP>
23:12:38 <esowiki> <b_jonas> even "ä" looks like an umlaut to me, even though technically "ë" as umlaut is more common in Hungarian, but "ä" is prevalent because of all the german and swedish texts
23:13:30 <esowiki> <imode> gimme da chonky 8x8 glyphs.
23:14:03 <esowiki> <oerjan> 1x1 is the best minimal power of 2 hth
23:14:04 <esowiki> <b_jonas> 8 pixel tall is well proven on many older computer displays and printers
23:14:27 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fecupboard20 my font is 20 pixel tall, that's why it's called that
23:14:33 <esowiki> <HackEso> oërjan? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:15:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> there used to be a fecupboard16, but I no longer use it, it doesn't have decent character coverage, it doesn't look nice, and I'm not distributing it because it's not a free font
23:15:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I used to use it on VGA text console
23:16:48 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think my SparcStation 5 had a 12x22 pixel font in its ROMs.
23:17:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think it was a little quirky though.
23:17:37 <esowiki> <imode> something I'm contemplating is doing sub-glyphs.
23:18:04 <esowiki> <imode> either shipping an 8x8 or 4x4 "shape" pack and building glyphs on top of that.
23:18:15 <esowiki> <imode> so your text would probably be chonk.
23:22:06 <esowiki> <imode> https://mrmotarius.itch.io/mrmotext
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23:31:42 <esowiki> <zzo38> I have 8x8 fonts for code page 437, 850, 865, 866, and 1125.
23:33:09 <esowiki> <imode> are there really thousands of codepages now.
23:33:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: not for 852?
23:34:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> doesn't even DOS 6.22 include one for 852 that you can enable with MODE ?
23:34:54 <esowiki> <b_jonas> by changing to 852 codepage and to 50 line mode on VGA that is
23:35:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but if not, you can just make such a font from a 8x8 unicode font with enough coverage
23:37:00 <esowiki> <gundalow7> ／！\ THIᏚ CHΑNⲚEL HAЅ MΟVEᎠ ΤO IᏒC．LⅠBΕᎡA．ϹHAТ ＃НAMᎡADIΟ /ǃ＼
23:38:36 <esowiki> <HackEso> [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+01C3 LATIN LETTER RETROFLEX CLICK] [U+FF3C FULLWIDTH REVERSE SOLIDUS]
23:39:14 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hmm, it might be missing U+01C3 in the middle part.
23:39:28 <esowiki> <HackEso> [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK] [U+FF3C FULLWIDTH REVERSE SOLIDUS]
23:39:57 <esowiki> <imode> language and writing is complicated.
23:40:31 <esowiki> <imode> I wonder what subset of UTF-8 will fit in an 8x8 character cell.
23:41:01 <esowiki> <fizzie> By definition all of it, unless you put a fidelity requirement on it.
23:41:13 <esowiki> <fizzie> There's 2^64 different 8x8 characters, after all.
23:41:43 <esowiki> <imode> legible characters.
23:42:01 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84301&oldid=83935 * Batata * (+60)
23:42:05 <esowiki> <fizzie> That's just a matter of training your users, surely.
23:42:06 <esowiki> <imode> guess I should just learn to read in 64-bit code blocks.
23:45:07 <esowiki> <fizzie> ▜▘▌ ▝ ▗▖ ▄▖ ▗▖▄ ▄ ▌ ▗ ▌ ▄ ▖▖ ▌ ▟▖▗ ▖▖▗ ▗▖▗ ▗▖▄ ▝ ▄▖▗ ▖▖▝ ▟▖▌ ▗ ▖▖▟▖ ▗▖▗ ▄ ▟▖▗ ▖▖▟▖
23:45:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖ ▖▘ ▌ ▄▌▌▌ ▛▖▛▘ ▛▖▄▌▛ ▞▌ ▐ ▌▌ ▛ ▛▘▌ ▌▌▚▌▌▌▐ ▖▘▛▘ ▙▌▐ ▐ ▛▖▌▌▌▌▐ ▌ ▌▌▌▌▐ ▛▘▞▖▐
23:45:15 <esowiki> <fizzie> ▝ ▘▘▝ ▀ ▀▘ ▝▘▀▘▘▘ ▀ ▝▘ ▘▘▀▘▘ ▝▘ ▘▝ ▘ ▝▘▝▘▝ ▄▘▘▘▝ ▀▘▝▘ ▀▘▝ ▘▘▘▝ ▝▘ ▘ ▝▘▝ ▘▘ ▘▝▘▘▘ ▘▝
23:46:10 <esowiki> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84302&oldid=84301 * Batata * (+45)
23:46:18 <esowiki> <imode> "this 2 can be hard to recognize without context"
23:46:27 <esowiki> <fizzie> It's a "z", as you can tell from the same pixels in "recognize".
23:47:05 <esowiki> <fizzie> I tried to use that font at work in Chat, but while it made the block-drawing characters monospaced, the spaces stayed proportional, and it went all wrong.
23:47:28 <esowiki> <imode> the 'e' looks all fucked up, like it compressed it.
23:47:52 <esowiki> <imode> I.. actually do not know whether my terminal font is monospaced. I think it is.
23:48:16 <esowiki> <zzo38> imode: Many of the lwer code page numbers are EBCDIC rather than ASCII, so the code page numbers used modern are high larger numbers.
23:48:28 <esowiki> <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't have 852.
23:48:36 <esowiki> <imode> zzo38: meant it to be a joke.
23:49:09 <esowiki> <zzo38> Is there a code page number for TRON?
23:49:21 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/ref.png if you want to see a reference rendering. I do like the "z" in that though.
23:49:41 <esowiki> <imode> oh that looks nothing like mine.
23:49:54 <esowiki> <imode> everything is all cronched together.
23:50:27 <esowiki> <imode> if you added curvature/smooth corners to the block shapes, it'd be better.
23:50:35 <esowiki> <imode> at least more parseable.
23:50:41 <esowiki> <fizzie> That's probably some sort of a width difference between space and the blocks, because that's a good description of what it looked like in Chat.
23:51:09 <esowiki> <imode> yeah. those blocks are definitely compressed length-wise for me.
23:51:32 <esowiki> <imode> because the top pixel on the 'e' is like, 1px by 8px.
23:52:08 <esowiki> <fizzie> Huh, that's awkward. Oh well.
23:52:20 <esowiki> <imode> <CTCP>ACTION needs a new font.<CTCP>
23:54:08 <esowiki> <zzo38> Code page 852 is one of the ones I wanted though, so that if Berusky game is ported to Free Hero Mesh, that the proper orthography can be in use. (Also maybe should be added the possibility to use other font sizes too, although currently a lot of the code assumes that 8x8 fonts are used, so they will need to be changed if it is to be implemented.)
23:55:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> Heh, well... it didn't turn out great in my web browser on the logs page either: https://zem.fi/tmp/ref2.png
23:56:22 <esowiki> <fizzie> And that's styled as `font-family: monospace;` and all.
23:56:30 <esowiki> <imode> eugh that alignment.
23:57:33 <esowiki> <zzo38> My own opinion is that Unicode is bad for grid-based text displaying.
23:57:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fizzie: that's an interesting tiny font. has some decisions different from what I made in my tiny font
23:58:13 <esowiki> <b_jonas> even if it's the same size, most of the letters differ
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23:59:34 <esowiki> <fizzie> It's the one I did for rfk86, I think with the main inspiration being mooz's TI-86 Befunge interpreter's font probably, though it's not exactly same as that one either.
01:38:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Paper * New user account
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04:20:33 <esowiki> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84303&oldid=84259 * Enoua5 * (+2954)
04:30:59 <esowiki> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84304&oldid=84303 * Enoua5 * (+641)
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07:18:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84305&oldid=83982 * Oshaboy * (+556) I made a mistake in JSFuck
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09:50:27 <esowiki> <velik> \morse <EN or RU text>
09:53:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> \morse hello world
09:53:53 <esowiki> <velik> .... . .-.. .-.. --- / .-- --- .-. .-.. -..
09:54:07 <esowiki> <velik> \demorse <EN morse code>; \demorse ru <RU morse code>
09:54:16 <esowiki> <nakilon> \demorse .... . .-.. .-.. --- / .-- --- .-. .-.. -..
09:54:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> \demorse ru .... . .-.. .-.. --- / .-- --- .-. .-.. -..
09:54:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> \demorse -- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ...- . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. .. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- ..
09:54:44 <esowiki> <velik> MURSU ON SUURIKOKOINEN VESIELMN SOPEUTUNUT ARKTINEN NISKSLAJI
09:54:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> \demorse ru -- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ...- . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. .. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- ..
09:54:54 <esowiki> <velik> МУРСУ ОН СУУРИКОКОИНЕН ЖЕСИЕЛЯМЯЯН СОПЕУТУНУТ АРКТИНЕН НИСЯКЯСЛАЙИ
09:56:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> not sure what is .-.-
09:56:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> is it some finnish letter modifier?
10:04:42 <esowiki> [[Velik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84306&oldid=83996 * Nakilon * (+295) added \morse and \demorse examples
10:07:05 <esowiki> <fizzie> (Which some online decoder converted into an Æ when I looked that up, so I presume it's that in some other dialect of morse code.)
10:09:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> can't find it here https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-M.1677-1-200910-I
10:10:59 <esowiki> <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code#Letters,_numbers,_punctuation,_prosigns_for_Morse_code_and_non-Latin_variants has it listed under the vague "non-Latin extensions" category, as "shared by Ä, Æ, Ą".
10:14:30 <esowiki> <fizzie> Making it Я in the Cyrillic flavor is moderately consistent, though. The Finnish ä is nominally /æ/, which I take it я could in some situations sound like.
10:14:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> that only gem that can Cyrillic -- I forked it to fix the broken dependency, but it appeared to emit only ASCII (for Russian you explicitly pass `:ru` and it emits UTF-8 with Я for .-.-)
10:15:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> another gem, that probably can those extensions, can't Cyrillic ..\
10:17:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> heh, and you know why?
10:17:25 <esowiki> <nakilon> because first gem author is Russian
10:17:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> the second gem author is Japanese
10:19:43 <esowiki> <fizzie> I probably shouldn't have said "nominally", the Finnish ä *is* /æ/, we have a pretty strict 1:1 mapping of graphemes and phonemes, with just a few tiny little special cases around things like /ŋ/ (an "n" before a "k" is a short /ŋ/ instead of the usual /n/, and "ng" turns into a long /ŋː/).
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10:24:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> checked, the Japanese gem supports japanese chars but not this extension: => "MURSU ON SUURIKOKOINEN VESIEL.-.-M.-.-.-.-N SOPEUTUNUT ARKTINEN NIS.-.-K.-.-SLAJI"
11:15:52 <esowiki> [[S l o w]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84307 * Magnogen * (+3695) Create Slow
11:31:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: or you could just write your own morse encoder and decoder
11:32:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> I could pull request one of them to include another alphabet
11:33:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> but I'd like to keep these simple https://github.com/Nakilon/nakiircbot/blob/master/example_libera_velik/remote_morse/app.rb
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12:05:18 <esowiki> [[S l o w]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84308&oldid=84307 * Oshaboy * (+44) Added link
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13:13:00 <esowiki> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84309&oldid=84304 * Enoua5 * (-251) Bracket cards not needed for this one
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13:29:11 <esowiki> [[S l o w]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84310&oldid=84308 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* External resources */ Fix link
13:35:45 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84311&oldid=58708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Categorize
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13:36:17 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84312&oldid=84311 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) Fix
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13:44:59 <esowiki> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84313&oldid=84309 * Enoua5 * (+889) /* Hello, world! */
13:48:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://proglangdesign.net/
14:04:31 <esowiki> [[User:Enoua5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84314&oldid=54260 * Enoua5 * (-351) Delete section "Languages I know"; I kinda just.. know *programming* now
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14:28:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitcoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84315&oldid=80795 * MathR * (+174) /* Turing-completeness */
14:41:19 <esowiki> [[S l o w]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84316&oldid=84310 * Magnogen * (+5) I'll
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15:19:55 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84317&oldid=84234 * Dominicentek * (+549)
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16:30:31 <esowiki> <zzo38> The same morse code for "A" with two dots above also stands for a line break, and a equal sign also stands for a paragraph break, it look like
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16:51:19 <esowiki> <keegan> I thought those sort of breaks were done with pauses
16:52:30 <esowiki> <keegan> but perhaps i'm wrong
16:53:41 <esowiki> <keegan> looks like the equals sign is the same code as the <BT> prosign which means "break" or "start new section of message"
16:54:51 <esowiki> <keegan> and Ä is the same code as <AA> which means space down one line
16:55:00 <esowiki> <keegan> in the ARRL National Traffic System
16:58:45 <esowiki> <keegan> i don't know very many of the prosigns
17:15:01 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84318&oldid=84317 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+63) /* Version 1.0 */ See laso
17:15:17 <esowiki> [[Folders]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84319&oldid=78501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* See also */ Add
17:15:30 <esowiki> [[Dirst]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84320&oldid=75130 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* See also */ Add
17:15:50 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84321&oldid=75128 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* See also */ Add
17:16:09 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84322&oldid=84318 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* See also */ Cat
17:22:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> anyone into image processing?
17:34:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> I wish there were jobs for programmers in Russia so I won't forget math after all these years
17:35:25 <esowiki> <nakilon> I'm trying to solve the captcha https://i.imgur.com/MTplwa8.png
17:36:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> I already have the text recognition half of the problem solved previously now I need to solve the deformation problem
17:38:46 <esowiki> <nakilon> so I have these two skeleton lines; how do I find some ^3 approximation for them? exactly to be able to iterate dot by dot along the approximation
17:40:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> but probably I should find some already existing gem...
17:58:23 <esowiki> [[Bitcoin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84323&oldid=80787 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) /* Examples */ cats
18:09:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> probably this https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Polynomial_regression#Ruby but I have no idea what do the 1.0 2.0 3.0 mean here
18:11:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> nvm, I see, 3x^2+2x+1
18:27:43 <esowiki> <riv> nakilon, i wouldnt use a cubic curve
18:28:12 <esowiki> <riv> in image 3, is only 1 pixel for every y coordinate filled
18:29:02 <esowiki> <riv> you could create a piecewise linear "curve" by just doing (x1,y1),(x2,y1),.. for x moving from left to right
18:29:23 <esowiki> <riv> and then you can smooth this and calculate normals
18:41:48 <esowiki> <zzo38> Is there a extension for Firefox to display formatted JSON? (It already can display formatted XML, but I want that for JSON too; it happens often enough that I try to access some URL and the response is in JSON format.)
18:44:39 <esowiki> <zzo38> (The "view source" could still be used if you want to display the raw JSON data, anyways)
18:53:19 <esowiki> <^[> I think it's already built in.
18:54:35 <esowiki> <^[> There's a "JSON" tab with an interactive tree, and a "Raw Data" tab.
18:57:23 <esowiki> <zzo38> Maybe it is a newer version than I have, then
18:58:38 <esowiki> <riv> there is one for chromium
19:00:35 <esowiki> <^[> "The JSON viewer is new in Firefox 44." https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/JSON_viewer
19:12:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Toxinite * New user account
19:21:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84324&oldid=84296 * Toxinite * (+231)
19:34:09 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84325&oldid=84305 * Oshaboy * (-188) Reduced the JSFuck Truth machine by about 200 chars
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20:07:41 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: I have some qualifications for image processing
20:09:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "<nakilon> I wish there were jobs for programmers in Russia" => sounds like a strong enough reason to consider migrating if there aren't
20:11:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: "to be able to iterate dot by dot along the approximation" => try sorting the pixels left to right, then again top the bottom, then again top left to bottom right, then again bottom left to top right, see which of the four results in less total distance
20:12:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> do you have a larger sample of these captchas? it's hard to go from just one
20:12:35 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: firefox already displays formatted JSON in the current version
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20:15:53 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84326&oldid=84240 * Grs * (+43) /* How it works */
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20:18:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84327 * Grs * (+81) Created page with "~~~: If you have any programs post it here:"
20:19:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84328&oldid=84327 * Grs * (-81) Blanked the page
20:26:36 <esowiki> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84329&oldid=84326 * Grs * (+1) /* Hello World! */
20:45:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> I want to iterate over every original pixel and find the closest one on the approximation curve to then find its coordinates in the corrected space
20:46:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> but idk how to find the closest one
20:49:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> as an approximation I can find the closest one among those on the skeleton though
20:53:14 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84330 * Toxinite * (+781) Created page with "'''Qwerty oriented impractical bicharacter language''' (qoibl) is an esoteric programming language created on the 10th of June 2021 by [[User:Toxinite]]. {| class="wikitable"..."
20:54:11 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: what kind of approximation curve do you have?
20:54:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> ^3 or ^4 polynom
20:55:06 <esowiki> <b_jonas> is it a spline? or y is a polynomial of x?
20:55:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> polynomial; idk other way to make an approximation
20:56:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> then why don't you just use the point with the matching y coordinate? isn't that also how you optimized the approximating curve?
20:57:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> that's not the closest one
20:57:47 <esowiki> <nakilon> I need to restore space shape
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20:58:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> find the corresponding normal
21:05:28 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84331&oldid=84330 * Toxinite * (+92)
21:08:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> that rosetta code gave these coefficients [-69.02347358088862, 5.116073840910607, -0.09317624841538175, 0.0008300975974690756, -2.7594210609514763e-06]
21:09:02 <esowiki> <nakilon> for left word; counting left top corner as (0,0)
21:10:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> hm, searching for the closest among that skeleton won't work because the skeleton ends aren't going far enough
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21:12:16 <esowiki> <nakilon> someone in internet says "One way to approximate the solution is to discretize the curve into a polyline", heh, like riv said
21:19:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> even iterative newton method won't work because of the space distortion
21:20:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> I guess I'll just calculate a thousand of polynom dots along the image and then search among all of them
21:22:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> but then I'll have to multiply the X distance between them by derivative... things are more complex than I imagined _-- will have a long fight with bugs
21:24:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stellartux * New user account
21:42:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but why do you need the closest?
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21:56:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/PCodCHm.png
21:57:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> I take green point and find the corresponding blue normal to the red axis that is distorted in original image but is straight in the corrected space
21:57:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> I mean I don't find the normal but where it intersects the red curve
21:57:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> to find the resulting X
21:59:17 <esowiki> <nakilon> current problem is to somehow convert the original X to resulting X'
21:59:46 <esowiki> <nakilon> because I have to continuously multiply by derivative so it's like integral _<>
22:01:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> so I have a starting point of my curve segment with 1000 points on it
22:01:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> and I need to calculate its length
22:07:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> if local length is abs(derivative) then the total length is antiderivative(abs(derivative))...
22:08:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> looks like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve#Length_of_a_curve
22:10:31 <esowiki> <nakilon> I've no idea how to calculate it
22:57:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> > points.map{ |v,x,y| x }.minmax
22:57:52 <esowiki> <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘|’
22:57:56 <esowiki> <nakilon> > points.map{ |v,x,y| y }.minmax
22:57:58 <esowiki> <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘|’
22:58:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> this image seems to be of 3000:150 aspect ratio
22:59:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> that sounds close to the aspect ratio of the first word when the space is corrected
22:59:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> now I need somehow to convert the array of dots to an image filling the gaps
23:26:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/0iK27nR.png
23:27:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> not what I expected lol
23:34:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> the shape looks correct though https://i.imgur.com/MZx8oB6.png
23:36:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> not sure what's wrong with last 9 columns, why they don't finish the rectangle
23:45:45 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84332&oldid=84331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Cats/templates
23:46:02 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84333&oldid=84332 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Fix
00:10:05 <esowiki> <zzo38> Have you played the "Gruniozerca" series of computer games? Do you know if they will make a fourth?
00:19:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> horraaaaaay https://i.imgur.com/wpdljVj.png
00:22:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> I was thinking about this for ~10 years and finally made it
00:24:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> corrected shape of captcha word https://i.imgur.com/MTplwa8.png
00:28:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> few minutes think up, ten years of hesitating and few hours to implement
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02:36:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: I'd still like to know if you have more example inputs of those captchas
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03:11:10 <esowiki> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84334&oldid=83857 * Goglesq * (+19) /* math(variable, equation) */
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03:12:21 <esowiki> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84335&oldid=84334 * Goglesq * (-5) /* getin(variable) */
03:17:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HecknTarnation * New user account
03:24:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84336&oldid=84324 * HecknTarnation * (+214)
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06:12:52 <esowiki> <zzo38> Now I made in Free Hero Mesh that it remembers which levels you have solved and it is writing the level number green in that case, rather than red. However, it does not yet have a menu to display a list of all of the levels, nor the possibility to make a SQL query on the list of levels; hopefully these things can be added in future
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07:10:59 <esowiki> <nakilon> b_Jonas not yet, gotta collect them for ml anyway
07:12:46 <esowiki> <nakilon> Thelounge is weird on mobile. Keyboard takes one half of screen. Browser address bar, topic and input takes another half. Can't read while typing
07:16:34 <esowiki> <nakilon> Still have no idea why right 9 columns were not full
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07:27:32 <esowiki> <nakilon> Also imgur is awful on mobile (
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07:36:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> (better if you switch to desktop mode)
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08:18:41 <esowiki> <arseniiv> I think someone already joked about ACIDIC language but I came up with yet another deacronymization: “allegedly circuitous immaterial divine instruction code”
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12:21:36 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84337&oldid=84284 * ResU * (+329) Two cats, no dogs
12:30:11 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84338&oldid=84337 * ResU * (+97)
12:31:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> arseniiv wasn't here a hackeso command to generate abbreviations?
12:31:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> *deacronymizations
12:32:21 <esowiki> <arseniiv> nakilon: hmmm don’t think I’ve seen one!
12:32:31 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84339&oldid=84338 * ResU * (+1)
12:32:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> hackeso needs a regex search for commands by name and/or description
12:32:51 <esowiki> <arseniiv> playing FEZ right now, it’s a great fun
12:36:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> I feel handicated having no logs search in Thelounge
12:37:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> and there is no website with #esolangs log search, right?
12:40:51 <esowiki> <arseniiv> hm I thought there were pages with each full year of logs but there are only full-month pages
12:41:48 <esowiki> <arseniiv> fizzie: do you know where can the logs be searched?
12:46:49 <esowiki> <ais523> how unreasonable would a 20MB web page be in 2021?
12:47:04 <esowiki> <ais523> I know that ridiculous web pages sizes are common, but am not sure if they can reasonably be *that* large
12:51:04 <esowiki> [[Delta Salein Ao]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84340&oldid=84172 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stub
12:53:21 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84341&oldid=84339 * ResU * (+195)
12:54:39 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: 20 MB is possible if it serves multiple high resolution images or a small video
12:55:52 <esowiki> <ais523> in this case, it would be 20MB of compressed text
12:56:09 <esowiki> <ais523> the context is, trying to host an esolang interpreter
12:56:18 <esowiki> <ais523> that uses a compression algorithm with a really big dictionary
12:56:19 <esowiki> <arseniiv> ais523: I’d add if the large part of its content is cacheable then maybe not that bad
12:56:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: "a regex search for commands by name" => grep -Eie "$1" /hackenv/share/whatis
12:56:40 <esowiki> <ais523> it should be cacheable, although actually getting it to be cached would be a little harder
12:57:11 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: we don't currently have a log search, you'd have to download the logs and search them locally. fizzie was vaguely planning to set up a log search.
12:57:13 <esowiki> <arseniiv> yeah, I meant cacheable by a poor browser :)
12:57:53 <esowiki> <ais523> I guess the part that's unlikely to change should be on a separate page and loaded by XHR or JSONP or whatever, so that we can change it without invalidating the cache
12:58:23 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: I think that sounds reasonable then, just perhaps make a landing page with human-readable description of what you're doing that doesn't load that
12:58:39 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so it only loads the dictionary if the viewer actually wants to use it
12:58:52 <esowiki> <ais523> I could even load it lazily, I guess
12:59:01 <esowiki> <ais523> wait until there's an attempt to compress or decompress a string
12:59:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I mean at least if the user wants to evaluate something
12:59:08 <esowiki> <b_jonas> not necessarily that lazily
12:59:11 <esowiki> <b_jonas> though that's certainly possible
13:00:05 <esowiki> <ais523> I've been pondering finding some way to split the dictionary up into, say, 65536 separate files, so that we only load the parts of the dictionary that are actually needed
13:00:21 <esowiki> <ais523> but that means that each individual part would compress less well
13:00:38 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "loaded by XHR or JSONP" => that might be overcomplicating it, unless you really want to make it lazy. it could just be a javascript or web assembly or an uncompressed image file that the page loads normally, and then access the blob in it from the interpreter javascript
13:00:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> through the canvas API if it's an image
13:01:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "65536 separate files" => um, is your compression algorithm such that that actually works?
13:01:31 <esowiki> <ais523> the canvas API doesn't exist nowadays, I thought? so that you couldn't fingerprint a browser by measuring how its rendering works
13:01:57 <esowiki> <b_jonas> also that sounds too many chunks for a 20 MB file that you're sending through network
13:02:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know, I think the canvas API still exists, but if not, there's probably a modern replacement like webGL or whatever
13:03:07 <esowiki> <ais523> why does my IRC client keep segfaulting
13:03:17 <esowiki> <ais523> maybe 65536 is too many, and it should be 1024 or 2048 or so
13:03:46 <esowiki> <b_jonas> no, still too many, that would make the individual chunks only 10K
13:03:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I'd make them at least 100K sized
13:03:56 <esowiki> <ais523> well, you'd need to access multiple chunks, most likely
13:04:10 <esowiki> <b_jonas> with 10K there'd be significant protocol overhead
13:04:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> for retreiving the files
13:04:15 <esowiki> <ais523> I've been looking at various compression algorithms (including trying to invent my own)
13:04:35 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but if canvas doesn't work, then just a javascript or web assembly file containing a blob (or multiple smaller blobs)
13:04:45 <esowiki> <ais523> prezip followed by one of the usual general-purpose compressors (gzip, bzip2, xz, etc.) seems to be the best algorithm
13:04:51 <esowiki> <ais523> probably gzip because web browsers have that already
13:04:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or you can make it XHR and cache it to local storage
13:05:04 <esowiki> <ais523> and prezip's compression ratio is hardly hurt by cutting the file and compressing the two bits separately
13:05:16 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ais523: can you decompress xz client-side in the browser?
13:05:36 <esowiki> <ais523> well there are couple of megabytes of webassembly in here too, so probably
13:05:50 <esowiki> <ais523> but relying on browers' built in gunzips would be easier
13:05:55 <esowiki> <b_jonas> well yes, it's Turing-complete, but like efficiently
13:06:20 <esowiki> <ais523> this is an esolang, efficiency is just a bonus :-D
13:06:34 <esowiki> <ais523> I've mostly been aiming for good asymptotic complexity but ignoring the constant factors
13:06:49 <esowiki> <ais523> and decompressing a specific, fixed dictionary is O(1) so it doesn't matter
13:07:04 <esowiki> <b_jonas> if it's for good asymptotic complexity then your 20 MB dictionary is too small :-)
13:07:20 <esowiki> <ais523> this is the largest dictionary I could find :-)
13:07:34 <esowiki> <ais523> it is 9.4 MB uncompressed
13:07:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and you want to compress it to 20 MB? brilliant
13:08:09 <esowiki> <ais523> sorry, 94 MB uncompressed
13:08:27 <esowiki> <ais523> these numbers get so big that it's hard to count the digits in them
13:09:27 <esowiki> <ais523> thanks for the advice, I'll think about this some more
13:40:03 <esowiki> [[Primes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84342 * Meloons * (+15387) Added Page
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14:24:26 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84343&oldid=84298 * Toxinite * (+12) Added Qoibl
14:48:12 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84344&oldid=84333 * Toxinite * (+184)
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15:04:59 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84345&oldid=84344 * Toxinite * (+66)
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15:43:53 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84346&oldid=84345 * Toxinite * (+347)
15:50:47 <esowiki> [[User:Toxinite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84347 * Toxinite * (+56) Created page with "I am a person who likes esolangs ==Esolangs== *[[Qoibl]]"
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15:53:15 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84348&oldid=76238 * Gilbert189 * (+64) /* Direction pointer */ (Lists exists)
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16:03:20 <esowiki> <Corbin> I think I've snapped. I propose an abomination: https://bpa.st/WVZQ Can any category theorists confirm that I'm on a decent track?
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17:23:48 <esowiki> <river> UTF-8 in brainfuck?
17:25:12 <esowiki> <myname> make . print out bytes instead if chars, done
17:25:44 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84349&oldid=84293 * Zero player rodent * (-733)
17:26:41 <esowiki> <keegan> isn't that how most BF impls work anyway?
17:26:43 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84350&oldid=84349 * Zero player rodent * (+7)
17:27:24 <esowiki> <myname> it's harder to make bf not support utf8
17:27:30 <esowiki> <keegan> brainfuck isn't limited to text data
17:27:53 <esowiki> <keegan> the only issue i'm aware of with processing arbitrary binary data is that you can't distinguish a null byte from EOF
17:28:18 <esowiki> <keegan> but that presents no additional issues for UTF-8 compared to ASCII
17:28:40 <esowiki> <keegan> because in both codes the null byte is only used to represent the null character and never for anything else
17:29:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Zero player rodent * uploaded "[[File:Among us.png]]": Logo for the Among Us programming language
17:31:59 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84352&oldid=84350 * Zero player rodent * (+77)
17:32:07 <esowiki> <keegan> you still might want to implement some UTF-8-related algorithms in brainfuck like finding codepoint boundaries or whatever
17:32:13 <esowiki> <keegan> but that shouldn't be particularly challenging
17:35:31 <esowiki> <zzo38> UTF-8 is a superset of ASCII, so if your program is using only ASCII then it will work on a terminal emulator with any ASCII superset, including UTF-8. The brainfuck program can easily output any data, whether ASCII, UTF-8, binary, or ANSI escapes. I think there are some extensions for doing other functions than only standard I/O if wanted too (which is not specific to brainfuck but to anything that is only standard I/O)
17:35:59 <esowiki> <zzo38> Also the representation of EOF in brainfuck depends on the implementation I think; some use 0, some use 255, some leave it unchanged, I don't know if some terminate on EOF
17:36:35 <esowiki> <zzo38> Although, if you need to input UTF-8 with nulls you can use the overlong null character encoding, I suppose
17:37:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Zero player rodent * uploaded "[[File:Amongus.png]]": Among Us programming language logo
17:37:45 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84354&oldid=84352 * Zero player rodent * (-1)
17:38:53 <esowiki> <river> im curious about the following concept?
17:39:04 <esowiki> <river> consider some kind of programming language that runs in one node
17:39:08 <esowiki> <river> and has the ability to talk to other nodes
17:39:11 <esowiki> <river> but is not turing complete
17:39:15 <esowiki> <keegan> what would be a good unambiguous way to handle EOF in brainfuck? add another command to ask if EOF has been reached?
17:39:20 <esowiki> <river> it is not turing complete with 2 or 3 or 4 nodes
17:39:23 <esowiki> <river> but it is turing complete with 5 nodes
17:39:33 <esowiki> <river> (5 chosen arbitarily for this example)
17:39:37 <esowiki> <keegan> "leave unchanged" works too but only if the cells are allowed to contain values outside [0..255]
17:40:05 <esowiki> <keegan> or -1 on EOF would work if your cells can go negative
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17:57:18 <esowiki> <myname> river: well, you can easily do something like splitting bf programs so that each cell runs its own program, i guess
17:57:45 <esowiki> <myname> and iirc bf with 3 (or 2?) unlimited cells is TC, but it is not with one
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18:18:05 <esowiki> <river> I hould really play TIS-100
18:19:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> 5 might also happen to be the magic numbers where The Waterfall Model becomes TC, though it's quite likely that we'll never know the exact number
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18:29:41 <esowiki> <lambdabot> ENVA 111820Z 12003KT 090V180 9999 SCT014 BKN024 OVC040 16/13 Q1001 TEMPO SHRA SCT008 BKN014 RMK WIND 670FT 08005KT
18:30:27 <esowiki> <oerjan> hm i don't know if any of that means rain.
18:31:08 <esowiki> <lambdabot> KOAK 111753Z 22005KT 10SM FEW010 SCT200 16/09 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP197 T01610089 10161 20100 58003
18:39:51 <esowiki> <myname> river: everybody should play every zach-like!
18:45:00 <esowiki> <river> i played lots of magnum opus, that was great
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19:18:17 <esowiki> <fizzie> oerjan: TEMPO SHRA means a little bit of showers, I think.
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20:01:58 <esowiki> <keegan> what is The Waterfall Model?
20:31:34 <spruit11> some clever device for software salesmen to make lots of green paper
20:42:40 <esowiki> <fizzie> It's that, too, but I rather think here it was a reference to https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model
20:47:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> keegan: https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model
20:50:00 <esowiki> <keegan> oh, that's pretty neat
21:09:25 <esowiki> [[Primes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84355&oldid=84342 * Meloons * (+107) Added GitHub Reference
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22:10:01 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84356&oldid=84354 * Zero player rodent * (+711)
22:17:46 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84357&oldid=84325 * Zero player rodent * (+538)
22:19:27 <esowiki> <arseniiv> accidentally won FEZ with 32 cubes or something. They say it has a better ending when you come with all 64 cubes
22:21:38 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84358&oldid=82876 * Zzo38 * (+410)
22:22:32 <esowiki> <arseniiv> I was a bit confused when doors expecting 32 cubes opened for me when I had less. But in reality anti-cubes count to the overall number of cubes and that’s even displayed when the gate opens, flashing briefly squares of two different colors, each square for each cube you have. I didn’t notice that at first
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23:15:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> fungot, was the safety pin of the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch one of the True Nails with which Our Lord and Savior was crucified, and if so, through which of his body parts was it hammered?
23:15:59 <esowiki> <fungot> b_jonas: it's not functional and it's barely turing complete with an ugly memory model for a multiplexer and an encoder/ decoder to/ from
23:51:51 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84359&oldid=84341 * ResU * (+38)
00:06:18 <esowiki> [[A returns a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84360&oldid=84300 * Jetison333 * (+0) /* Code examples */
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01:16:11 <esowiki> <oerjan> <b_jonas> Corbin: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic says "Blackbird" <-- after a little wikiwalk inspired by wikipedia's featured picture, turns out those are not actually corvids
01:18:43 <esowiki> <oerjan> (neither the european nor american version)
01:20:11 <esowiki> <oerjan> *old world nor new world
01:23:34 <esowiki> <Corbin> oerjan: Zoology is wack, huh? And bluejays are corvids despite looking like passerines. TIL, thanks.
01:27:46 <esowiki> <keegan> corvids are a subset of passerines, aren't they?
01:28:02 <esowiki> <keegan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae "Order: Passeriformes"
01:29:20 <esowiki> <keegan> we don't have blue jays here but we have scrub jays and Steller's jays
01:29:23 <esowiki> <keegan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steller's_jay
01:29:39 <esowiki> <keegan> very striking appearance
01:29:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oh heck, so you need to know both ornithology and bird sociology to tell whether there's a combinatorial bird that's also a corvid
01:30:32 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or more likely, solve some kind of puzzle where the forest's keeper tells you about rules that somehow involve corvids and bird application, Smullyan style
01:31:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "After observing this forest for twenty years, I have discovered three interesting rules. (1) For every corvid A, there is a bird B such that BA is not a corvid. [...]
01:33:22 <esowiki> <b_jonas> `I have pondered your observations all night, and have discovered a striking fact. None of the birds in this forest are corvids.' [...] `Curious. I've been observing this forest for 20 years and never realized that.'"
01:33:24 <esowiki> <HackEso> I? No such file or directory
01:33:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> (The actual punchline in the book that none of the birds ever sing in the forest is much better than the one with corvids, I admit.)
01:37:54 <esowiki> <Corbin> keegan: Oh, interesting, TIL again. I thought "passerine" was just how zoologists say "songbird". The most common corvids here are crows, and they don't exactly ♩ sing ♪
01:38:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or perhaps it would be something like "From these three rules, detective Craig could derive the following properities. 1. All bluebirds are corvids. 2. None of the kestrels in this forest are corvids. Can you also prove those properties?"
01:39:34 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I think the most common songbirds here are common blackbirds
01:40:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but maybe they're just the most obviously recognizable, with their yellow beak but otherwise black body, while some of the other corvids are all black and hard to distinguish from each other
01:40:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> crows might be more common
01:43:26 <esowiki> <keegan> crows are very common here
01:43:32 <esowiki> <keegan> almost as common as pigeons
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01:56:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it's sparrows that are common here, the little greedy guys
01:56:32 <esowiki> <oerjan> crows are more common than pigeons here
01:57:08 <esowiki> <oerjan> although they compete with seagulls, depending on time of year
01:57:20 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I think pigeons are more common than crows, though there also seem to be less pigeons than there used to be. maybe the generation of old city folks who fed pigeons have aged out?
01:57:56 <esowiki> <oerjan> there are probably more pigeons in the city center (or at least used to be)
01:58:02 <esowiki> <oerjan> but this is a suburb
01:59:13 <esowiki> <b_jonas> perhaps. there are pigeons right on our roof, and so are there on the roof over my parent's home, but yes, probably more common in the city center
02:05:20 <esowiki> <keegan> i think that deliberately given food is probably not a huge fraction of their diet but that a lot of it is trash that will be more widely available in the city center
02:05:43 <esowiki> <keegan> we also have seagulls (being by the sea and all)
02:05:46 <esowiki> <keegan> and they love trash too
02:05:57 <esowiki> <keegan> they like to hang out at the parking lot of a burger place i go to
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06:29:02 <esowiki> <SiFuh3> ⧸!⧹ ΤΗIЅ ⲤНΑⲚNEL ᎻAS MОVEᎠ ΤO IRC.ᏞIᗷΕRA.CᎻΑΤ #HΑМᎡΑᗪІО ᜵ⵑ⧵
06:29:03 <esowiki> <SiFuh3> ᜵!＼ ΤHE ЈΕWᏚ HΑVΕ ΤAⲔЕN ⲞVEᎡ ᖴREЕΝODΕ‚ СዘATᏚ HAVЕ MOⅤED TΟ IRⅭ․LІBЕᎡΑ.CHАΤ /﹗＼
06:30:21 <esowiki> <myname> i don't get why those bots even spam in libera about switching to libera
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07:28:13 <esowiki> <zzo38> And, why are some of the letters mixed up on thise spam messages?
07:30:32 <esowiki> <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so, but a spam filter could be made to look for such mixed up letters instead. (A long time ago I had seen spam messages with too many spaces at the end of the subject line, so I used that as a filter criteria; sometimes it is base64 encoded or whatever, so I used that asa filter criteria; etc)
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08:14:49 <esowiki> <fizzie> Re why spam about it here, I don't know how plausible it is, but it *could* be an attempt to get bridge bots get killed on the other side.
08:38:12 <esowiki> <nakilon> 09:30:21 <myname> i don't get why those bots even spam in libera about switching to libera
08:38:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> because the whole point was just to call people jews, koreans, etc., not switching the network for any profit
08:38:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> people will start realising it maybe in few years
08:39:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> some things are too hard to understand for majority
08:39:59 <esowiki> <nakilon> the only "reason" switching from freenode was these same spambots who were telling you to do it and you just followed their orders, lol
08:45:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> I imagine the TPUs can have miscalculations happen every second and no one will spot it behind the "NN magick"
08:46:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> the whole point of "computers being reliable" has devaluated thanks to NN hype marketing
08:48:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> today people with no math/engineering skills design, approve and even implement most of the software
08:49:19 <esowiki> <myname> i switched way before the spambots started
08:52:29 <esowiki> <myname> i suspect those bots to be somehow paid by freenode to fud on libera
08:53:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> spambots started before, they just looked different, were not automated
08:54:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> they were human beings
08:55:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> people didn't need anything to be proven to switch from freenode though
08:56:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> I was asking like two times what are the evidence that something bad is happening and all you had was a wikipedia link to some website where guy is called a prince and it's somehow bad or something
08:57:01 <esowiki> <myname> it was a hostile takeover, that's reason enough
08:57:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> yeah, people say these two words "hostile takeover" with no sense put in it
08:57:31 <esowiki> <myname> it doesn't even matter if there were legal threats or not, it doesn't matter what the intentions from whoever are
08:58:13 <esowiki> <myname> okay, even if it was not a hostile takeover, i still follow the staff, not the name of the network
08:58:35 <esowiki> <myname> if the staff saw a reason to leave, so do i
08:59:17 <esowiki> <nakilon> so stuff are in fact your masters? maybe that's how the "takeover" looks like? they move you from one place to another as they wish
08:59:55 <esowiki> <myname> what is your reason to choose a network if not the people who operate it?
08:59:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> how isn't Andrew a good host?
09:00:47 <esowiki> <myname> the operators are what define the network, not the name of it
09:01:15 <esowiki> <nakilon> I have no idea who operates networks and this neither has or have to have any nifluence on my choice
09:01:34 <esowiki> <nakilon> my socket connection and ability to talk and run bots works fine on any network
09:02:03 <esowiki> <myname> too bad for you, then
09:02:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> how is it bad to be independent and not a pawn being moved elsewhere because of someon else's personal dramas lol
09:02:37 <esowiki> <nakilon> I'm still on freenode
09:03:19 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e I didn't have any burned food
09:03:29 <esowiki> <myname> i'm not a pawn being moved. i know staffers personally and i trust them. i have yet to find any positive fact about andrew
09:04:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> neither of you did have a burned food
09:04:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> that was just their personal drama
09:05:05 <esowiki> <nakilon> some internal job communication problems
09:06:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> what do you mean by "#haskell taking over"? something like with gentoo? the bug in a script with the following apologizing from Andrew's side and purposeful hiding this by gentoo's admins to manipulate their pawns who are happy to be like that?
09:08:52 <esowiki> <FireFly> I think it's less "taken over by a prince and that's bad" and more "taken over by a businessman running it as some sort of startup, apparently with several reports of harassment against them, opering up known abusers", at least from my POV
09:08:56 <esowiki> <myname> so either he straight up lies or has no clue on how to run a network in a robust way. great start so far. i also like how you always point out that others believe everything and at the same time are totally fine with him claiming it was an accident that should never ever happen outside of test servers or channels
09:09:06 <esowiki> <nakilon> or another picture I see here is like starting shitting on the walls. drawing words "ACAB" with a shit, until cops come to stop you and you say "see?! they are arresting me -- that's why I was right shitting on the walls and no one will check the chronology, pawns"
09:09:25 <esowiki> <FireFly> but either way, it doesn't really matter particularly, people are presumably free to choose where they want their communities *shrug*
09:10:48 <esowiki> <nakilon> "lies or has no clue on how to run a network in a robust way" -- what would you expect when half of staff have left? maybe it was even one of their sabotage scripts, saying "hey dude, run this"
09:11:32 <esowiki> <myname> sure, i also always run unchecked code from people that just left me
09:12:12 <esowiki> <myname> if "half" of staff left, i expect him to either not run untested scripts or just test them locally
09:12:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> maybe that sctipr author left on the next day
09:12:43 <esowiki> <myname> i cannot trust him maintaining a reliable network either way
09:12:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> all you know is that it was ran and there were apologizings but you don't mentions the latter because that's not the goal of drama
09:13:51 <esowiki> <myname> no, the apology doesn't matter. if he doesn't know what it does, he should never have run it in the first place. if he did know it, the apology is useless
09:13:52 <esowiki> <FireFly> I don't think the problem is the script or apologise per se, moreso than the sudden changes in what has previously been perfectly fine for at least two decades on freenode..
09:14:19 <esowiki> <FireFly> the whole thing like "can't mention another network in topics because that's advertisement" is... pretty foreign
09:14:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> yep, people self inflicted the network damage
09:15:02 <esowiki> <myname> what, don't you love censorship in your free network?
09:15:16 <esowiki> <nakilon> "he should never have run it in the first place" -- he was the one who tried to fix things unlike others
09:15:30 <esowiki> <myname> what things? what was wrong?
09:16:27 <esowiki> <nakilon> how spamming the libera network name in topic better than spamming hamradio channel name?
09:17:22 <esowiki> <FireFly> I think "this community has moved to X" is uh, not exactly spamming
09:17:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> so you call stopping you from shitting the walls a censorship?
09:17:46 <esowiki> <FireFly> just, like, a friendly PSA to the community in question, if they've decided to move.. be it to libera, or discord, or matrix or whatever
09:18:10 <esowiki> <myname> okay, at first you didn't know what bots were and now you don't know what spamming is. if channel owners want to include something in their topic, it's their choice. unless it violates law, a network must not forbid me to put whatever i want in there
09:19:01 <esowiki> <myname> if i spray something on the inside of my wall and get arrested for it, i indeed do call it censorship
09:19:34 <esowiki> <myname> i can do whatever i want in my house
09:19:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> the network mentions in topic was not a choice -- it was a result of a spam and person-based hate flame effect on channels owners
09:19:47 <esowiki> <nakilon> they were bad ops
09:20:26 <esowiki> <myname> ah, all ops of the hundreds of channels were bad because they decided to inform their respective community about a change
09:20:56 <esowiki> <nakilon> it wasn't only on your inside walls, the whole apartment was smelling with this
09:21:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> people were smelling shit in all the channels
09:21:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> instead of being on topic
09:21:28 <esowiki> <myname> yeah, because each house owner decided to paint something on their walls
09:21:56 <esowiki> <myname> that is nothing that should ever be changed by a network owner
09:23:33 <esowiki> <nakilon> that's exactly what landlords should do -- stop the hype of shitting the walls no matter if they are inside or outside because the whole building started smelling
09:23:53 <esowiki> <myname> you can probably argue whether or not the choice to switch networks was reasonable. but _if_ i decide to move a community as an op, i should be allowed to put that information in a topic.
09:24:16 <esowiki> <myname> nakilon: i highly doubt landlords can do anything to you if you spray the inside of your house
09:24:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> btw, it's not even the correct analogy -- channels are not personal flats but a common areas like cafes or cinemas
09:24:25 <esowiki> <myname> at least where i live, they cannot do shit about it
09:24:54 <esowiki> <myname> it's a fundamental right that i can do whatever i want in my house
09:25:03 <esowiki> <nakilon> so it was a shopping center and cafe owners started serving shit
09:25:41 <LKoen> well you can't farm drugs in your house
09:25:44 <esowiki> <myname> if other people don't get affected by it, sure thing
09:26:06 <esowiki> <myname> yeah, i did mention earlier that you cannot break the law
09:26:44 <esowiki> <myname> the whole "stinking" argument is nonsens. if i spray my wall, you will not be able to smell that on the outside after like a few days max
09:26:49 <esowiki> <nakilon> everyone was affected; people hated this shit so much that agreed to switch just in hope that they'll stop smell what cafe owners did
09:27:44 <esowiki> <nakilon> channel topics are the outer side of your door anyway even if ti's a personal flat
09:27:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> people are passing by every day
09:28:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> and there are rules on what you can do with your door for sure -- you can't shit it
09:28:20 <esowiki> <myname> how are channel topics the outer side?
09:29:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> they are in /list and /chanserv info and on the websites that track the channel topics
09:29:56 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84361&oldid=84322 * Dominicentek * (-41)
09:30:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> also it's the same as your balcony and there are rules too about what you can place on your balcony
09:30:19 <esowiki> <myname> you know why that is? so people can see relevant information. like changes in the community and stuff
09:30:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> yeah nazism was revelant change in 30s
09:30:55 <esowiki> <myname> sure, you can go that route, but that is a reason against freenode. i want to be in a network where i can put whatever legal stuff i want to in topics
09:31:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> so Italy could learn it too
09:31:40 <esowiki> <myname> that comparison is bullshit
09:31:53 <esowiki> <myname> in most places, it's highly illegal to do that
09:32:05 <esowiki> <nakilon> ahah, you won't be able to put the other network name all over the place if that would be caused by that some guy from these team is a prince of some Evil Axis country or something
09:32:11 <esowiki> <myname> it is however not illegal to name a website that is totally legal
09:33:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e there should be some law ahout probability that mentioning the logic, ANd and OR would be too
09:33:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> that's called a learning on mistakes
09:33:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> the thing is that you again ignore the chronology
09:34:21 <esowiki> <myname> also, you are comparing a legit network by trusted people with some grey area, which is still bullshit
09:34:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> the freenode drama started with Andrew's nationality in the first place
09:34:50 <esowiki> <myname> what? i don't even know andrew's nationality
09:35:30 <esowiki> <myname> how should i know? it was never mentioned by any of the staffers letters afair
09:35:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> his surname is such a secret
09:36:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> this pretending is too blatant
09:36:27 <esowiki> <myname> okay, now i pretend because i say i don't care about the nationality of somebody?
09:36:57 <esowiki> <myname> maybe i read his surname, not sure, i never bothered to remember. i wouldn't even know his first name if you didn't mention it
09:38:03 <esowiki> <myname> okay, so he is called lee. so what?
10:23:11 <esowiki> [[Column]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84362 * Dominicentek * (+2637) Created page with "Column is an esoretic programming language developed by Dominicentek. It's code is executed column by column in a text file, rather than line by line like in a typical program..."
10:33:31 <esowiki> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84363&oldid=84210 * Dominicentek * (+13)
10:34:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84364&oldid=84343 * Dominicentek * (+13) /* C */
12:00:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * .yazic * New user account
12:56:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84365&oldid=84364 * ResU * (+56) added NOTE and Truth Machine
13:20:44 <esowiki> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84366&oldid=84362 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Interpreter */ Category
13:45:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> "<int-e> worse noting, I really make th wortht typos" => you managed to type "thwart" correctly
13:55:09 <esowiki> <b_jonas> ok, let's do it right this time, rather than just return from a family break to see the drama played out
13:56:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> dear esolangs community, if this channel or the network collapses somehow, even twelve years from now, we will meet on the wiki and on the oftc IRC server channel #esolangs , using whichever works as a lifeboat to decide where to go.
14:59:12 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84367&oldid=84359 * ResU * (+121) added self-interpreter
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15:27:40 <esowiki> <Corbin> That one scene from "Shawshank Redemption" where he's trying to remember how to spell "Zihuatanejo" so he can meet up with his friend~
15:28:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Plasmath * New user account
15:35:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/8PFnh0P.png -- how do I decide that the 1st of 3 peaks is what I need?
15:35:59 <esowiki> <nakilon> the middle peak can be absent
15:36:53 <esowiki> <nakilon> the question of image binarizing
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15:42:10 <esowiki> <river> have you thought of using a neural network to detect the (rotated) letters?
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15:43:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> no, I'm doing better than NN can do
15:44:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> my captcha solver will have no NN cancer
15:45:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> no, it's useless
15:48:22 <esowiki> <river> why do you say these things?
15:49:00 <esowiki> <river> how are letters recognized without?
15:49:01 <esowiki> <myname> yeah, the most advanced technology we have to date do deal with image recognition is totally useless for image recognition
15:49:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> years of observations, math knowledge and marketing understanding
15:49:34 <esowiki> <myname> undistorted letters should be pretty easy, though
15:50:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> "how are letters recognized without?" -- with machine learning
15:50:45 <esowiki> <river> do you have a link that explains how to do this machine learning?
15:50:47 <esowiki> <myname> "NN is useless, just use machine learning"===
15:51:07 <esowiki> <myname> machine learning is in most instances done through NN
15:51:09 <esowiki> <Corbin> myname: Careful not to imagine that society is cumulative and always makes forward progress. Sometimes useless technologies are invented.
15:51:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> river what do you mean by "this machine learning"?
15:51:13 <esowiki> <river> i'v always been curious about making a program that can read text from an image, but never managed it
15:51:25 <esowiki> <nakilon> myname https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning
15:51:26 <esowiki> <myname> Corbin: i do know that
15:52:18 <esowiki> <myname> nakilon: i am well aware. how does that disproof my statement?
15:52:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> your statement isn't proved in the first place
15:53:05 <esowiki> <Corbin> myname: Neural nets are generally machine-learning, yes, but not all machine-learning is done through neural nets.
15:53:20 <esowiki> <myname> Corbin: i never stated that
15:53:35 <esowiki> <Corbin> I implemented some example code from https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.01446 the other day, and the learning is done through black-box optimization, not using any gradients or neurons.
15:53:36 <esowiki> <myname> it's just convinient to use for most cases
15:53:39 <esowiki> <river> nakilon, how to read text from an image
15:54:02 <esowiki> <nakilon> river I already have 10 lines long prototype that recognizes text better than a tool made by 50 people using several multimillion costing NN technologies
15:54:05 <esowiki> <Corbin> Maybe it's convenient with a toolkit, but NNs to me are expensive, slow, and temperamental.
15:54:27 <esowiki> <river> im not the one arguing with you
15:54:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> and the prototype isn't even aware of language dictionaries
15:54:31 <esowiki> <river> the chat is very busy
15:54:34 <esowiki> <myname> NN is so big that you are probably easier off just using whatever NN framework you have available in your language of choice than writing a machine learning algorithm from scratch
15:54:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> so once I add them it will do even better
15:54:40 <esowiki> <river> hopefully you are not mixing my messags up with anyone elses
15:55:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> river I understand, it's hard to talk meaningful when every 2nd line is a purposeful flame even if not yours
15:55:21 <esowiki> <river> yes it is quite frustrating
15:58:02 <esowiki> <myname> having a prototype that recognizes text better than a tool made by 50 people is a bold claim. unless the other tool isn't specifically designed to recognize text, i highly doubt you can give a reasonable metric for that
16:01:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> their tool was made specifically for text recognition, my tool is just a wrapped on another thing of mine that isn't even about text
16:01:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> it was just a library usage example
16:02:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> <CTCP>ACTION afk to a store<CTCP>
16:03:34 <esowiki> <myname> in that case, better publish a paper or even better sell that product
16:04:41 <esowiki> <Corbin> myname: Aha! Okay, this is an understandable perspective. I'm usually working in a language I built, so I have to pay the cost of every abstraction. NNs would take a lot of work.
16:05:53 <esowiki> <myname> that's fine. but if you just want to recognize something and are using python (and aren't doing it for research purposes), there is not much benefit writing a specialized solution over taking one of the larger existing frameworks
16:10:51 <esowiki> <nakilon> I make this captcha solver for just a personal usage script and maybe will reuse somewhere else in future
16:11:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> but I checked how much it costs to solve your captcha with a service where a thousand of people are sitting and and solving them
16:12:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's ~$1.5 per 1000 captchas but they are doing it in 30 seconds in average while my one is gonna work within 5 sec
16:13:14 <esowiki> <myname> "yeah, i have this technology written in like 10 lines of codes that could generate me easy passive income, but i will only use it for personal usage, because who needs free money anyways"
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16:49:20 <esowiki> <b_jonas> not totally useless, alas, but it's overmarketed and somewhat overused
16:52:03 <esowiki> <b_jonas> a lot of products have some kind of useless modern machine learning part that is technically in it but not really needed or used, just so they can market it as a product that uses machine learning, because that's fashionable. (blockchain is similar, but even worse; in most products advertised with it it's absolutely useless, as opposed to just mostly useless)
16:52:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it used to be JIT and multithreaded, then GPU programming, but the marketing fashions are changing
16:54:38 <esowiki> <myname> b_jonas: did you know about that first idea about an electronic vaccination passport in germany?
16:57:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> *sigh* no, I haven't been following that political nonsense and I'm not too interested in it
17:00:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> I guess I'll just take the peak within the section that ends when it's the first fall to 20% of the peak
17:00:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> or 30%, whatever
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17:38:33 <esowiki> <zzo38> Is it possible to define a escape sequence that cancels any further responses from the terminal emulator for previously accepted escape sequences (but does not cancel further ones)?
17:41:28 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but where does Zach propose to get all the energy for the electrolysis? (re "https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/titan")
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17:42:02 <esowiki> <pikhq> well it's a nuclear sub, so presumably nuclear power
17:42:15 <esowiki> <pikhq> wasteful? yes. possible? also yes
17:44:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: wouldn't work too well, because there's a race condition: you wouldn't know when the terminal actually reacted to the escape sequence, and in fact the terminal will likely respond to its input in sequence, so it will react to previous escape sequences before it even reads your recent one. what you can do is to send some escape sequence to which the terminal does react by a response that you can
17:45:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> recognize (you can make that from cursor reads unless the terminal is like 1x1 character in size), then read from the terminal and skip everything until you see that reply
17:47:04 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: there's also an ioctl or some such system call api to flush the input queue of the terminal, but that only really works for a local linux console on /dev/ttyN , for anything else there's a race condition because the terminal logic that gives you responses is in an asyncroniously running process or even on another host
17:48:02 <esowiki> <zzo38> I know that it won't work for remote terminals; it is for local terminals that I ask about
17:48:11 <esowiki> <b_jonas> for the local terminal, this is useful and getty or its equivalents do us it, so that the new login doesn't get input left there by a previous login, possibly from a malicious user. for a remote terminal like ssh, you usually start a new terminal connection instead; for serial it's a bit more complicated
17:48:16 <esowiki> <zzo38> (specifically, local pseudoterminals)
17:48:40 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: for local pseudoterminals, the terminal emulator process is still asynchroniously scheduled
17:49:12 <esowiki> <b_jonas> the latency is probably less than if you're talking through an internet connection on ssh, but qualitatively it's the same
17:50:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> on /dev/tty this can only work because the kernel can and does actually access the read queue of the terminal and flush it and does this in a way that synchronizes with its other terminal processing
17:51:11 <esowiki> <b_jonas> you can still flush a pty's queue the same way, but it doesn't really solve the race condition, you still need to wait for the terminal's response to some command you send after that and skip previous responses
17:51:28 <esowiki> <zzo38> For example, if you put such a escape sequence in the shell prompt string then any responses to other escape requests (e.g. cursor position, window title, etc) will not be seen by the shell. This can also include keyboard mode; if previous escape sequences set some mode, any keys will be transmitted using the default keyboard mode instead of the new one.
17:51:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> unless you can just start a new virtual terminal, which you can actually often do and may be easier (but slower) than resetting an existing one
17:52:00 <esowiki> <zzo38> (It could reset other modes too)
17:53:23 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: that's two different problems. there is a sequence "\ec" that resets almost every setting (in some cases it keeps the palette, window size, fonts, window title and icon title, etc), but you still have to skip the input
17:53:50 <esowiki> <b_jonas> for which I recommend sending a sequence of absolute cursor moves and cursor position reads and wait for the matching response, but perhaps there's a better way
17:54:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> you may need something more complicated than just "\ec", I'm not sure, but "\ec" is what does most of the work
17:55:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> heck, it even resets the weird "\e12m" mode on linux console that, for some reason, systemd's built-in getty doesn't fix on this debian system.
17:55:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> why doesn't systemd properly reset the terminal? I have no effing clue
17:58:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GreenThePear * New user account
17:58:06 <esowiki> <zzo38> There are many problems with systemd that I read about, and many people don't like it, you can use something else instead
18:00:03 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: on this computer there are bigger problems with the local console logins than that: the VESA bios is broken and sometimes doesn't properly set the video mode when switching from X11 to the mode that linux graphics mode console uses
18:00:10 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so I don't particularly care about that bug for now
18:00:48 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I don't know how they messed that up, the bios and the built-in video card are on the same motherboard sold together
18:01:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it's not a separate extension video card (yet)
18:05:05 <esowiki> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84368&oldid=84225 * ResU * (+30)
18:07:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84369&oldid=84336 * GreenThePear * (+307)
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18:44:09 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84370&oldid=84367 * ResU * (+544) Added prime calculator (my own algorithm)
18:48:06 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84371&oldid=84370 * ResU * (+6)
18:49:43 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84372&oldid=84371 * ResU * (+6) /* Prime calculator */
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20:20:10 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84373 * GreenThePear * (+3893) Created
20:21:22 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84374&oldid=84373 * GreenThePear * (+55)
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20:22:11 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84376&oldid=84375 * GreenThePear * (+0)
20:22:20 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84377&oldid=84376 * GreenThePear * (+2)
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20:28:42 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84378&oldid=84377 * GreenThePear * (-3)
20:30:26 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84379&oldid=84372 * ResU * (+234)
20:35:34 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84380&oldid=84379 * ResU * (+10) slightly modified the quine so it is a valid program
20:36:18 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84381&oldid=84378 * GreenThePear * (-26)
20:37:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84382&oldid=84369 * TinyGuy32 * (+44)
20:47:43 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84383&oldid=84381 * GreenThePear * (+46) Decided to use 's for the raw value instead
20:48:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84384&oldid=84365 * GreenThePear * (+27) /* W */
20:48:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84385&oldid=84384 * GreenThePear * (+0) /* W */
20:49:53 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84386&oldid=84383 * GreenThePear * (+0)
20:52:36 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84387&oldid=84386 * GreenThePear * (+3) /* Expressions */
20:52:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84388&oldid=84382 * Plasmath * (+240) Added my signature.
20:53:07 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84389&oldid=84387 * GreenThePear * (+7) /* Expressions */
20:54:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Plasmath * uploaded "[[File:Godencode Memory Samples.png]]"
20:58:23 <esowiki> [[User:TinyGuy32]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84391 * TinyGuy32 * (+829) Created page with "==NumberPankackes== ==Commands== 1X: pushes X to the stack (you must have a colon at the end of the command) 2 coppys the top of the stack and pushes it..."
21:00:36 <esowiki> [[User:TinyGuy32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84392&oldid=84391 * TinyGuy32 * (-829) Blanked the page
21:03:53 <esowiki> [[User:Plasmath]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84393 * Plasmath * (+128) Created page with "Hello! I've made some languages, here they are: (I haven't made pages for any of my languages yet, I'll put them here when I do)"
21:17:26 <esowiki> [[User:TinyGuy32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84394&oldid=84392 * TinyGuy32 * (+829)
23:01:09 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84395 * Plasmath * (+26343) Created the page.
23:06:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Godencode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84396 * Plasmath * (+1282) please help finish interpreter
23:06:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84397&oldid=84396 * Plasmath * (-46)
23:15:37 <esowiki> [[Primes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84398&oldid=84355 * Meloons * (+0) lowercase
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23:57:34 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84399&oldid=84380 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Commands */ Modify wording
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00:27:57 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84400&oldid=84395 * ResU * (+17)
00:46:39 <esowiki> [[Coeus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84401&oldid=78485 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+150) Added a section Interpreters with a reference to my implementation and changed the category to Implemented.
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01:16:10 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84402&oldid=84357 * Plasmath * (+2108)
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01:33:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84403&oldid=83539 * Plasmath * (+400) /* Program too long to add into page */ new section
01:34:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84404&oldid=84385 * Plasmath * (+16) Added [[Godencode]].
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01:48:16 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84405&oldid=84400 * Plasmath * (+87) Added an infinite loop. First really simple program.
01:48:43 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84406&oldid=84405 * Plasmath * (+1) Forgot the code formatting.
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02:03:58 <esowiki> <zzo38> Why do they use YCoCg rather than YCgCo?
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02:10:17 <esowiki> <zzo38> (It seem to me that YCgCo is making a better prediction based on the valid range due to the value of the previous channels)
02:11:45 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plasmath]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84407 * Ais523 * (+1030) reply
02:14:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plasmath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84408&oldid=84407 * Ais523 * (+269) what about linking to the language page?
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02:41:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plasmath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84409&oldid=84408 * Plasmath * (+124)
02:46:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:Plasmath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84410&oldid=84409 * Plasmath * (+158)
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03:24:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: you mean like how you order the information in jpeg and such formats? how it would work better if you ordered the channels differently? I don't even know what order it has the channels in. I guess you'd have to test whether it yields a better compression, and of course that may depend on the progressive JPEG scheme. you would have to use an encoder that can take the YUV values directly rather
03:24:28 <esowiki> <b_jonas> than RGB though, and I'm not sure what encoder can do that -- I mean ffmpeg can but its jpeg encoder is also terrible and not configurable so it's not a fair test, maybe libjpeg can but I don't know how
03:25:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> though the YUV space that JPEG uses isn't quite the same as YCoCg apparently
03:25:37 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I'm confused by so many different linear transformations of color spaces
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03:30:57 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I guess you'll have to ask the HAM enthusiasts of esolangs
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04:36:29 <esowiki> <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't mean JPEG, since I think JPEG doesn't take advantage of the order of the channels to make predictions and that stuff. But, it seems to me that the valid range of values for Cg can depend on Y, and the valid range of values for Co can depend on Cg and Y once they are known.
04:36:50 <esowiki> <zzo38> Actually I did make up a picture compression based on this, and it seems to work a bit better than PNG
04:37:27 <esowiki> <zzo38> (and, unlike PNG, does not require guessing things in order to improve the compression)
05:11:18 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: oh yeah, it's Huffman compression after that linear transformation on blocks, you'
05:11:53 <esowiki> <b_jonas> re right that it can't take advantage of that kind of thing. I guess I was thinking of PNG, where the deflate step *can* take advantage of correlation between channels
05:12:07 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so JPEG was irrelevant
05:14:31 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I should have known that, because I know how JPEG worked, but I didn't realize. oh well.
05:15:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but still, if you think something like flipping the order of chroma channels can help, which I doubt, then you might want to experiment with that on more modern image/video compression formats, ones where it could matter
05:15:39 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I doubt that just flipping two channels would help, but still
05:15:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I'm not all that good about image compression
05:16:45 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I had some ideas about them and thought about it enough to realize just how difficult the topic is
05:17:54 <esowiki> <zzo38> See the piccomp.c file (SHA-1 hash is c4e5438e358e174cde4b25ecd536d52f59beb702) in TeXnicard
05:19:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> basically I tried to think of how to design a good image compression algorithm, and I didn't find a way to get the properties that I want, anything I try would either be bad at compression or would be impossible to implement efficiently, and I have also experimented with existing video compression libraries and they're just too good
05:20:03 <esowiki> <zzo38> What properties do you think that you want?
05:20:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it shouldn't stop me from thinking of course, but I haven't been able to think of a good enough design yet, so I want to think about it more before I can implement anything
05:23:06 <esowiki> <b_jonas> zzo38: basically the problem is that decoding something variable width like Huffman is hard in a way that takes advantage of the SIMD capabilities of a CPU (or the same of a GPU). you can parallelize decompression and compression by handling individual large chunk of course, and all the other parts, as in color space transforms and DFT or other linear transforms and PNG-like prediction from previous
05:23:12 <esowiki> <b_jonas> value and video compression's testing which neighboring block is the most similar or even estimating the motion delta more efficiently than trying every possible delta, those can be done in SIMD
05:23:40 <esowiki> <b_jonas> but for the variable bit size huffman-like compression in the end (it doesn't necessarily need to be huffman, could be arithmetic coding) you have to iterate through individual values in series
05:23:53 <esowiki> <zzo38> I think what PNG does compressing the filter types together with the pixel data is a bad idea; it would be better to be separate
05:24:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and if you want something that avoids that, better predicting how much to shift the input data or have a fixed width encoding, that is possible, but then you probably have to rearrange the output pixels in an unpredictable order which is even worse, or do some other intersting thing,
05:24:55 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and I think it's probably possible to avoid this trap, but I couldn't yet think of a good way,
05:25:15 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so I should read up if any existing algorithm does that and still manage to do not terrible compression
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05:26:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and also think about how it could be done
05:26:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> because that's what I'd like to see form an algorithm, at least for *decompression*, it could be slower for compression perhaps, though it's also worth to have other compression methods that are also fast to encode
05:29:56 <esowiki> <b_jonas> there is some balance between slower compression as a price for slightly smaller encoded form while keeping the same quality and decompression time, and a more important tradeoff of slower compression and decompression and much larger encoded size for better quality, and good image/video encodings already offer both tradeoffs as a somewhat tunable parameter
05:30:45 <esowiki> <b_jonas> though there is something odd here now that I think of it
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06:15:50 <esowiki> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84411&oldid=84366 * Dominicentek * (-2) /* Truth Machine */
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08:30:38 <esowiki> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84412&oldid=84411 * Dominicentek * (+12) /* Truth Machine */
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09:05:34 <esowiki> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84413&oldid=84412 * Dominicentek * (+17) /* Fizz Buzz */
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09:31:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> this is function k7*x**7+k6*x**6+k5*x**5+k4*x**4+k3*x**3+k2*x**2+k1*x+k0 and this should be its derivative, right? k7*x**6+k6*x**5+k5*x**4+k4*x**3+k3*x**2+k2*x+k1
09:33:05 <esowiki> <nakilon> but the bottom line doesn't look like derivative of upper one https://i.imgur.com/Pljjzyq.png
09:33:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> it doesn't get above 0 in the middle
09:34:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> k0..k7 = [86.37483858758613, -4.3258409149187855, 0.13119312931328275, -0.0022258811427750126, 2.156489053721058e-05, -1.1221319014114155e-07, 2.8163872939164175e-10, -2.530165279150212e-13]
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09:36:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> oh no, forgot to multiply by 7, 6, ...
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10:05:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> b_jonas I've got another example https://i.imgur.com/BlsjZrI.png -- problem here is that they use several different captcha generators and this one doesn't rotate but skews the letters
10:12:02 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: yeah, that can help with the captchas
10:12:38 <esowiki> <myname> uhm, the derivative of k7*x^7 isn't k7*x^6 but 7*k7^6
10:13:08 <esowiki> <myname> same issue with each other part of the sum except the last because x^1 will get a factor of 1
10:13:34 <esowiki> <myname> also, bit surprise, captchas are made to be hard to read
10:15:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ultlang * moved [[Delta Salein Ao]] to [[Delta Salein ]]: the actual name
10:15:52 <esowiki> <nakilon> this one is skewed too, not rotated https://i.imgur.com/dVMMdkT.png
10:16:22 <esowiki> [[Delta Salein ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84416&oldid=84414 * Ultlang * (+5)
10:17:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> gotta somehow differentiate them to switch the way of chosing the closest line dot -- using "min x1-x2" instead of "min hypot x1-x2, y1-y2"
10:18:46 <esowiki> <nakilon> or just try both ways until I see which one makes better results on the OCR stage
10:35:25 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84417&oldid=84389 * GreenThePear * (+827) Revamped the commands, all [x] input will be used as an index + fixing some mistakes
11:18:24 <esowiki> <b_jonas> myname: yes, and nakilon corrected himself about the derivatives a few lines later, and this time I wasn't hasty enough to reply before reading that
11:22:42 <esowiki> [[Column]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84418&oldid=84413 * Dominicentek * (+137)
11:29:06 <esowiki> [[NumberPankackes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84419 * TinyGuy32 * (+1110) Created page with "==NumberPankackes== NumberPankackes is a stack-based esoteric programing language what a stck is: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Stack ==Commands== 1X: pushes X to the st..."
11:29:44 <esowiki> [[User:TinyGuy32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84420&oldid=84394 * TinyGuy32 * (-829) Blanked the page
11:30:08 <esowiki> <riv> is there a tool that lets me easily cut a picture from an image out/remove background
11:30:17 <esowiki> <riv> GIMPs 'intelligent scissors' aren't that great for it
11:30:48 <esowiki> <riv> I feel like with modern stuff.. it should be possible to just draw a rough outline and get a perfect cutout
11:34:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84421&oldid=84404 * TinyGuy32 * (+44)
11:39:10 <esowiki> [[NumberPankackes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84422&oldid=84419 * TinyGuy32 * (+2)
11:39:23 <esowiki> <b_jonas> riv: it really depends on the image, but try ones that require both a positive and negative sample, that is, points marked strictly inside and strictly outside the object, rather then a rough outline. try (1) GIMP's new foreground select tool, and (2) the GMIC QT gimp plugin's colorizer tools, which are intended to color black and white photos and black and white line art respectively (that's two
11:39:29 <esowiki> <b_jonas> separate tools) based on another image with sample points of color in the objects, but you can ask them for the masks of which colors go exactly where and use that to get a selection mask that you use for something other than selecting an object
11:39:47 <esowiki> <b_jonas> they aren't perfect, but I think they work better than GIMP intelligent scissors
11:40:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> http://gmic.eu/ to download the G'MIC QT Gimp plugin on windows; install from distro on debian
11:40:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> note that Gimp has a decent ABI so the same plugin compiled once can be reused for different minor versions of GIMP
11:41:56 <esowiki> <b_jonas> which means you can install G'MIC QT from debian and it will work for a newer version of Gimp that you install from source, as I learned
11:42:21 <esowiki> <b_jonas> that was back when Gimp 2 wasn't yet in debian and I really really wanted Gimp 2 so I installed from source
11:42:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> now Gimp 2 is in debian stable, and I love that
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12:08:07 <esowiki> <nakilon> now the correctness is limited by how well I apply dilations to make skeletonization go well https://i.imgur.com/ckuQeDp.png
12:09:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> riv there was online service
12:09:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, and that part is hard
12:09:42 <esowiki> <nakilon> this or maybe it's a clone https://www.remove.bg/ru
12:14:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/Ux0aQTH.png
12:16:18 <esowiki> <nakilon> I actually could apply the whole process twice but pixels are rotting
12:16:43 <LKoen> are you trying to teach bot to cheat at captchas?
12:17:21 <esowiki> <nakilon> yeah, script that would send me new vacancies from local job search site
12:17:44 <LKoen> note that there was a fun trick at some point where captchas consisted in two words; the first word was meant to tell whether the user was human or not; the second word was much easier to decipher and actually came from scanned books
12:18:06 <LKoen> and in two months they had digitalized an entire library without optical recognition software
12:18:24 <esowiki> <nakilon> yeah I guess that was recaptcha
12:18:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> now they are teaching self-driving cars
12:21:49 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: and Google Maps to read house numbers from blurred photos, surely you noticed those captchas
12:22:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> blurred or just photos taken from the distance by self-driven cars to teach them navigate?
12:23:30 <LKoen> I don't remember house numbers
12:24:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: not deliberately blurred, just taken from a distance either by the same cars that Google Maps uses to make street view, or more likely by the airplane cameras that they used to make the incredibly high resolution "satellite view" from five different camera directions that isn't actually from satellites
12:25:02 <esowiki> <nakilon> didn't know about airplanes
12:25:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> as in, satellite view _is_ from satellites in most areas of the map, but in those places it's also low resolution and only has one camera direction
12:25:39 <esowiki> <b_jonas> so in more populated places that most people view on the map, they used airplane cameras, which can give much higher quality
12:25:46 <esowiki> <nakilon> that would explain how they made all the trees and buildings 3d in there
12:25:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> just because they're closer
12:26:33 <esowiki> <b_jonas> nakilon: well that's only part of it, part of the 3D buildings are modeled from their street view photos and from random location-tagged photos from the internet corellated by really clever software, the same way as we model 3d objects from 2d photos except they do it better
12:27:27 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and of course some of this is just speculation because they don't tell all the details about how they got every image, they only tell when that was a requirement to buy a license of pictures that other people made not specifically for them
12:40:34 <esowiki> [[NumberPankackes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84423&oldid=84422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-45) Link to page directly
12:41:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84424&oldid=84421 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22) /* Non-alphabetic */ Remove duplicate
12:42:19 <esowiki> <nakilon> at first they were croudsourcing
12:42:38 <esowiki> <nakilon> it was called Warehouse 3d and people could make models of things in Sketchup
12:42:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> Sketchup was freeware and a great fun
12:44:02 <esowiki> [[What Mains Numbers?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84425&oldid=64983 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Implementations */ Cat
12:44:08 <esowiki> <nakilon> so I made models for 2-3 buildings in my town, uploaded and they were in Google Earth since then; but now I can't even find them on their website, idk
12:44:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> you could create collections and become moderator of them, similar to how people build wikipedia
12:45:21 <esowiki> [[User:Soundandfury/ECLAIR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84426&oldid=33340 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Implementation */ Deadlink
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13:18:52 <esowiki> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84427&oldid=84418 * Dominicentek * (-42) /* Interpreter */
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13:19:17 <esowiki> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84428&oldid=84361 * Dominicentek * (-41) /* Development Kit */
13:20:50 <esowiki> [[User:Plasmath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84429&oldid=84393 * Plasmath * (-66) Added [[Godencode]].
13:29:50 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84430&oldid=83967 * Plasmath * (+20) I'm trying to add Godencode, but it hasn't been letting me. Making it a 2-step process might work?
13:35:38 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84431&oldid=84430 * Plasmath * (+47)
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14:03:45 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84432&oldid=83055 * Sanscicondos * (+49)
14:04:09 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84433&oldid=84432 * Sanscicondos * (+13) Added Version 1.3.5 to Github
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14:48:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kermek * New user account
14:55:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84434&oldid=84388 * Kermek * (+407)
14:55:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84435&oldid=84434 * Kermek * (-76)
14:56:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84436&oldid=84435 * Kermek * (-6)
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15:49:30 <esowiki> <nakilon> made the second pass https://i.imgur.com/Jq2LUCj.png
15:59:01 <esowiki> [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84437&oldid=79507 * Cybertelx * (+15) Added LongDick language
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16:13:27 <esowiki> [[LongDick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84438&oldid=83816 * Cybertelx * (+19) link me
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16:33:12 <esowiki> [[VBF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84439 * VilgotanL * (+2464) created the page
16:34:20 <esowiki> [[VBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84440&oldid=84439 * VilgotanL * (+15) add "and transpiler" to implementation link
16:40:16 <esowiki> [[For The Worthy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84441 * Kermek * (+5730) Created page with "'''For The Worthy''' is an esolang witch only interprets the '1' and '0' characters, thus enabling programmers to reach their final hackerman form. ==Language Overview== ===In..."
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16:41:59 <orbitaldecay72> Greetings all. I have a quick question. Is the sort of completeness that Godel talks about equivalent to TC under the Curry-Howard correspondence?
16:44:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84442&oldid=84424 * Kermek * (+21)
16:45:02 <orbitaldecay72> And, if so, is it fair to say that one way to describe the split between computer science and mathematics is in how each field responds to Godel's incompleteness theorem? i.e. mathematicians err on the side of consistency while computer scientists err on the side of completeness?
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16:49:11 <esowiki> <riv> Godels completeness theorem states that in a first order logic, if a formula is true in all models it is provable
16:50:05 <esowiki> <riv> Godels incompleteness theorem states that arithmetic (and extensions) contain statements that are neither provable or disprovable
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16:51:37 <esowiki> <riv> the halting problem gives an explicit example of a problem that cannot be solved by a turing machine
16:51:53 <esowiki> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84443&oldid=83804 * VilgotanL * (+10) add vbf to language list
16:52:14 <orbitaldecay72> Right, and under the Curry-Howard correspondence, a type system is in some sense equivalent to a Hilbert style deductive system in logic. If a no non-normalizing expression is well typed, then the corresponding logic is consistent, right?
16:52:47 <esowiki> <riv> Curry-Howard correspondence equates proofs and programs
16:53:25 <orbitaldecay72> Yes, and formulas as type definitions, among other things, right?
16:53:34 <esowiki> <riv> generally consistency of a typed lambda calculus based logic is proven by showing (A) strong normalization (B) False does not have a normal form - this implies consistency as inconsistency would let you prove False
16:53:55 <esowiki> <Corbin> orbitaldecay72: If you want the short answer, then yes, by Lawvere's fixed-point theorem: http://tac.mta.ca/tac/reprints/articles/15/tr15.pdf
16:54:26 <orbitaldecay72> Yeah, looking for the short answer to test my intuition. Thanks for the link.
16:54:30 <esowiki> <Corbin> This is a very abstract category-theoretic statement. It can be specialized to get Gödel's Incompleteness, and also to get Turing's Halting.
16:55:46 <esowiki> <riv> The completeness that Godel talks about is not the same as turing completeness
16:56:04 <esowiki> <riv> the fact that there are problems a turing machine can't solve is a type of incompleteness
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16:56:23 <esowiki> <Corbin> I think that there were many different reactions to our discovery of computability theory. I don't think it's reasonable to cleave computer science from maths; computer science is the study of algorithms and data structures, which is a special case of studying abstraca.
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16:56:28 <esowiki> <riv> turing completeness <- may be better referred to as turing equivalence
16:57:17 <esowiki> <Corbin> Oh, I misread the original question, sorry.
16:57:54 <esowiki> <Corbin> Gödel's Completeness is quite different from Gödel's Incompleteness! I don't know how the former relates to Turing's work, sorry.
16:58:13 <orbitaldecay72> Okay, so in the Curry-Howard sense the halting problem corresponds to some theorem that can neither be proven nor disproven?
16:59:06 <esowiki> <riv> https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/avigad/Teaching/halting.pdf there is a direct proof here of godels first incompleteness theorem using the halting problem as the key element, rather than godels original proof which used a self referential formula as the key element
16:59:25 <orbitaldecay72> riv: beautiful, this is exactly what I was looking for
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16:59:32 <esowiki> <riv> > in the Curry-Howard sense the halting problem corresponds to some theorem that can neither be proven nor disproven?
16:59:34 <esowiki> <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘in’
16:59:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84444&oldid=84442 * VilgotanL * (+67) add my newest 5 languages
16:59:49 <esowiki> <riv> no, turing machines aren't a typed lambda calculi - so you cannot apply Curry-Howard here
17:00:37 <orbitaldecay72> yeah, I get that, but typed lambda calculi are of course in some sense equivalent to turing machines, just wondering if it makes sense theoretically
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17:00:54 <esowiki> <riv> a typed lambda calculus must not be turing equivalent
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17:00:57 <orbitaldecay72> or rather, lambda calculi in general are in some sense equivalent to turing machines
17:01:10 <esowiki> <riv> the strong normalization condition says that every algorithm terminates in a finite number of steps
17:01:11 <orbitaldecay72> I understand that simply typed lambda calculus is not tc
17:01:23 <esowiki> <riv> neither is dependently typed, like Coq for example
17:01:37 <esowiki> <riv> this is what enables a consistency proof to be done
17:01:42 <esowiki> <Corbin> riv: Note that Curry-Howard-Lambek still applies, and typed lambda calculi each give a Cartesian closed category for a model, where we can try to apply Lawvere's fixed-point theorem.
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17:02:43 <esowiki> <Corbin> But yeah, generally when it *does* apply, there's enough data for a Turing category, where there's an object representing all of the untyped terms.
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17:03:31 <esowiki> <riv> the untyped lambda calculus is turing equivalent, but it doesn't have types that you can interpret as logical formulae - so no Curry-Howard bridge there
17:03:35 <esowiki> <Corbin> There's nice tables at https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/computational+trilogy which are recently redone and looking nice.
17:04:57 <orbitaldecay72> Okay, so, another related question, when Godel talks about incompleteness, is this in some sense equivalent to sub tc? Re: what Corbin was mentioning.
17:05:27 <esowiki> <Corbin> Turing showed that there's a computer program which, if given a program that could solve Halting, creates a contradiction.
17:06:34 <orbitaldecay72> That is my understanding of how the halting problem is proven to be uncomputable
17:06:37 <esowiki> <Corbin> Let "Truth" be the question of whether a formula in arithmetic is true. Gödel showed that there's a proof which, if given a proof that could solve Truth, creates a contradiction.
17:07:09 <esowiki> <Corbin> (Technically Tarski showed this, and similarly we can't mention Turing without the far-more-useful Rice's Theorem; there's too many people to remember~)
17:07:30 <orbitaldecay72> Of course, we all stand on the shoulders of history :)
17:08:50 <esowiki> <riv> What is the connection between Tarski's undefinability of truth and Godels incompleteness?
17:09:10 <esowiki> <riv> > The undefinability theorem is conventionally attributed to Alfred Tarski. Gödel also discovered the undefinability theorem in 1930, while proving his incompleteness theorems published in 1931, and well before the 1933 publication of Tarski's work
17:09:11 <esowiki> <lambdabot> <hint>:1:124: error: parse error on input ‘in’
17:09:13 <esowiki> <riv> oh that is funny I didn't know that
17:12:06 <esowiki> <riv> it doesn't seem to imply godels incompleteness
17:15:30 <esowiki> <Corbin> BTW, https://www.logicmatters.net/resources/pdfs/godelbook/GodelBookLM.pdf is quite good, for anybody wanting to understand all that Gödelian stuff. I had to take it slow, because the details are extremely nuanced.
17:18:15 <esowiki> <Corbin> If you just want to see how category theorists might apply Lawvere's work to simplify thinking about all of this, then https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0305282.pdf is so good.
17:29:17 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84445&oldid=84417 * GreenThePear * (+47) Clarifications and fixes about the number system, plus other polishing
17:31:35 <esowiki> <riv> https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0305282.pdf <- this is really cool!
17:35:26 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84446&oldid=84406 * Plasmath * (+124) Forgot one small part of if command.
17:36:21 <esowiki> <riv> The Lob's Paradox one is a bit jarring
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17:55:33 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84447&oldid=84446 * Plasmath * (-3) Made another mistake in the description.
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18:05:16 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84448&oldid=84447 * Plasmath * (+16) I think I finally worded this in a good way.
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18:11:32 <orbitaldecay72> Corbin: I'm thinking more about my comments on the distinction between computer science and mathematics. Most of my experience is as a software engineer. My education is in math, but I don't know a lot about proof theory. The thing I noticed is that, AFAIK, a program which does not halt corresponds to a proof of a contradiction in mathematics by
18:11:33 <orbitaldecay72> Curry-Howard. In programming, we use languages that permit infinite loops, but in mathematics we don't use axiom systems that allow proving contradictions.
18:12:02 <orbitaldecay72> On the surface, this makes sense because in classical logic if we permit a contradiction as a theorem, then everything entails. But in paraconsistent logics this is not true.
18:12:23 <orbitaldecay72> As paraconsistent logics explicitly reject the principle of explosion.
18:13:32 <orbitaldecay72> So, why don't mathematicians use paraconsistent logics to permit a small class of contradictions as theorems but software engineers use languages that permit infinite loops?
18:13:49 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84449&oldid=84448 * Plasmath * (+31) Forgot yet another thing about this command. This is it though. I've made sure.
18:16:23 <orbitaldecay72> I recognize that what I'm proposing is a totally reformulation of how math is done, but just wondering in the spirit of intellectual inquiry
18:17:29 <esowiki> <Corbin> Sure, and the philosophy of why logic is even a good idea is historically important. Frege and Quine had strong but inscrutable opinions on this sort of thing.
18:18:54 <esowiki> <myname> forbidding infinite loops would need you to solve the halting problem, doesn't it?
18:18:55 <esowiki> [[Meta Memes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84450&oldid=72253 * Caenbe * (+9) Stubbify
18:19:02 <orbitaldecay72> Okay, glad I'm making sense. I recently learned about paraconsistent logics and dialetheism and immediately sensed a correlation between what those philosophies are advocating and what I do as a software engineer.
18:19:05 <esowiki> <myname> doesn't sound like an easy task for me
18:19:25 <esowiki> <Corbin> There is an old question: Shouldn't contradictions be relevant to the proofs which use them? If I prove that the sky is simultaneously blue and not-blue, does that make 1=2? If so, *how*?
18:19:39 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84451&oldid=84449 * Plasmath * (+0) My documentation was hard to read.
18:19:40 <esowiki> <myname> great, have a language that probably cannot do the task you are trying to solve
18:20:30 <esowiki> <Corbin> Ah, sure. Note that a proper dialethist cannot refute a trivialist, who claims that all things are true. In particular, a dialethist cannot prove to them that anything is false; the law of non-contradiction is a missing logical lever they'd need.
18:21:23 <orbitaldecay72> Corbin: Yeah, of course. There are definitely philosophical issues with dialetheism too, I just noticed that philosophically it was closer to what I was doing than classic logic was.
18:21:24 <esowiki> <Corbin> myname: Most GPU programs are not Turing-complete. Instead, a Turing-complete CPU program repeatedly takes bounded steps by submitting bounded programs to the GPU.
18:22:09 <esowiki> <myname> sure, you can have arbitrary many sub-tc sub-tasks, but you want to have a tc system at some point or another
18:22:12 <orbitaldecay72> i.e. by using a language that allows for infinite loops I'm implicity rejecting non-contradiction
18:22:34 <esowiki> <Corbin> orbitaldecay72: I'm looking for a good reference, but a simple slogan is "there's no type of non-halting programs", along myname's lines. This means that it's not possible to use Curry-Howard to try to construct a family of usable contraditions.
18:23:35 <esowiki> <myname> also, at least in terms of semantics, an infinite loop is considered to have no semantical meaning. it's just one of the points where theory and practice diverge
18:23:36 <esowiki> <Corbin> In general, computers are constructive and effective, so while we don't have LEM or Choice, we do still have intuitionistic type theory, which is plenty powerful.
18:23:37 <orbitaldecay72> this is where I don't know enough about formal type theory to recognize what is a limitation of classical logic, and what is a limitation of type theory
18:23:47 <esowiki> <myname> imperative programming makes things hard
18:24:20 <esowiki> <Corbin> orbitaldecay72: Lucky 10000: https://www.ams.org/journals/bull/2017-54-03/S0273-0979-2016-01556-4/S0273-0979-2016-01556-4.pdf
18:26:20 <esowiki> <Corbin> Ha, don't thank me yet. It took me a while to personally overcome old beliefs about maths and accept topos theory as a reasonable way to get things done.
18:27:03 <orbitaldecay72> My thinking is this. We can definitely construct a Hilbert style axiom system that allows us to prove a contradiction (we have to try hard to avoid this). If type systems are basically equivalent to these, then why can't we construct a type system in which a non-normalizing term is well typed?
18:28:01 <orbitaldecay72> Again, I'm way out of my depth here. Just trying to develop some sort of intuition for the topic.
18:29:13 <esowiki> <Corbin> No worries. The answer I'd choose to keep going with Curry-Howard-Lambek, and do some category theory. We usually say that proofs of contradiction are rare because they can be shown to be categorically equivalent.
18:30:06 <esowiki> <Corbin> Categorically, an arrow into the initial object can only come from another initial object, and they're isomorphic. Logically, a proof of contradiction can only come from another contradiction, and they're equivalent.
18:30:17 <orbitaldecay72> Cool. I'll follow up with the category theory. Whenever I start barking about these questions I almost universally hear, "See category theory". Unfortunately I haven't done that yet, so I suppose I should!
18:30:44 <esowiki> <Corbin> (Constructively, recally that a proof of contradiction ~P is literally something like "P -> false". Being able to logically entail falsity is the ur-contradiction.)
18:31:16 <orbitaldecay72> Corbin: But doesn't this all presuppose classical logic? i.e. what if we are using a logic in which contradiction doesn't entail everything?
18:31:54 <esowiki> <Corbin> Category theory's just so much neater for logic. Like, take *any* formal logic with rewrite rules. There's a category whose objects are equivalence classes of terms, and whose arrows embody the rewrite rules.
18:32:07 <esowiki> [[User:GreenThePear]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84452 * GreenThePear * (+702) Created
18:33:35 <esowiki> <Corbin> This all presupposes some constructive logic, but not classical logic. That's the key change in POV. And yes, it's possible to build interesting paraconsistent models, and also to require relevance for contradictions, but we don't necessarily know how to implement those in computers.
18:34:03 <esowiki> <Corbin> No worries. Sorry for dumping so much information onto you; hopefully it makes a little sense. Bauer's paper is really eye-opening on its own.
18:38:05 <orbitaldecay72> The information is great. I come here whenever I have a question that I'm having trouble answering because invariably I get a ton of information dumped on me haha
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18:44:50 <esowiki> <riv> if categories are great why aren't there 2-categories?
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18:47:36 <esowiki> <oerjan> https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/ (note: i'm not really a follower but i've heard about it)
18:48:15 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84453&oldid=84445 * GreenThePear * (-4) /* Examples */
18:50:10 <esowiki> [[Python is Magic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84454 * Gilbert189 * (+6954) Created page with "Python is Magic is a very restricted version of Python 3. On Python is Magic, only magic functions can be used. ==Warm-up== This is a valid Python is Magic code: __name__.__..."
18:50:24 <esowiki> <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_category_theory might be more elucidating. (i haven't read that either.)
18:50:52 <esowiki> <oerjan> i was about to mention shachaf, i think he knows a lot more about it than i
18:51:18 <esowiki> <oerjan> if you can keep him from doing feline puns
18:51:41 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84455&oldid=81403 * Gilbert189 * (-61)
18:51:42 <esowiki> <riv> https://www.reddit.com/r/confusing_perspective/comments/c95247/siamese_twins_cats/ here is a 2-cat
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18:58:03 <esowiki> <Corbin> As a warmup, my housecat was yowling all last night. We got a little cat opera'd.
18:58:35 <esowiki> <Corbin> I still like "sets are 0-categories"; all of the structure of set theory is like a "decategorified" version of category theory.
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19:02:26 <esowiki> <oerjan> <CTCP>ACTION wonders too<CTCP>
19:03:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> one conversation about image processing and one about formal logic. I don't contribute much today, but I'm glad the channel is back to its old weird self
19:03:18 <esowiki> <oerjan> it slightly reminds me that certain definitions of dimension consider the empty set -1-dimensional
19:05:02 <esowiki> <oerjan> i'd have to look that up
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19:06:31 <esowiki> <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension#Topological_spaces starts with the lebesgue covering dimension which is an example
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19:10:02 <esowiki> <oerjan> seems to be true for the inductive ones too
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19:52:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84456&oldid=83822 * Qwertyu63 * (+563) /* Sign checking */
19:58:59 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and the weird thing is, half of the nicks I don't even recognize from earlier, and I wonder if people just took the opportunity at the network switch to choose new nicks and I'm so stupid as to not recognize them after that, but that probably isn't the case
19:59:52 <esowiki> <b_jonas> this channel does somehow indeed manage to pull in new weird people, even though I have no idea how they find their way here because we don't advertise ourselves very much and I find it hard to find my way into these kinds of communities
20:00:17 <esowiki> <b_jonas> also I have all sorts of personal problems and sometimes you help but sometimes you cause me to stay up at night when I really shoulnd't, not that I'm blaming you, just saying
20:00:48 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and the sad part is when that happens and I know that the other people who I'm talking to are Europeans and have a messed up sleep cycle hurting them too
20:01:20 <esowiki> <b_jonas> the "booleans are just -1-categories" thing sounds somehow wrong though
20:01:48 <esowiki> <b_jonas> or at least not true in the literal sense but perhaps there's some interesting enough analogy there that might work even if not in the literal sense
20:01:56 <esowiki> <riv> b_jonas, i used to be rain1
20:02:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> that explains part of it
20:02:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and I knwo that moony renamed himself to, um, let me consult NAMES
20:03:19 <esowiki> <oerjan> b_jonas: i know at least keegan took that opportunity too
20:04:10 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and perhaps some old people who left #esoteric for years but stayed on freenode, they took this oppurtunity to just CHECK on which old channels move there because they wanted to know just in case, and joined, and got stuck
20:04:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> because that's certainly something I'd do with other channels
20:04:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> anyway, moony took a short nick and I think I'll recognize him if he returns under that
20:05:01 <esowiki> <nakilon> I had to change my nickname to velik
20:05:08 <esowiki> <nakilon> and rename bot to nakilon
20:05:28 <esowiki> <b_jonas> what? "had to" but renamed the bot to the old name?
20:05:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> I just realised that I had to
20:05:58 <esowiki> <b_jonas> (well he's called "moon" now, but some people switch between nicks)
20:06:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> to confuse b_jonas
20:06:32 <esowiki> <b_jonas> yeah, that makes more sense even though I never felt the need, perhaps because I feel lucky for choosing b_jonas because it's a better name than I knew when I came up with it
20:06:38 <esowiki> <oerjan> i thought moon had always been switching nicks
20:06:45 <esowiki> <nakilon> I still don't know who's the pythondebugshell
20:06:49 <esowiki> <oerjan> but usualy not very far
20:06:56 <esowiki> <b_jonas> that's why I recognize him more easily
20:07:18 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I still don't know who Corbin is, and of course sometimes wonder about people who I do recall but don't seem to come in anymore
20:07:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> although... there is a certain person who used to come in and I think used to ask about formal logic... I wonder
20:07:47 <esowiki> <riv> i know who Corbin is :>
20:08:19 <esowiki> <b_jonas> no, probably no, because I think they're from another continent
20:08:27 <esowiki> <oerjan> <CTCP>ACTION looks quizzically at Corbin <CTCP>
20:08:29 <esowiki> <riv> orbitaldecay72 is the one who had that amazing stuff about bitfuck right?
20:08:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> "I have all sorts of personal problems" -- heh, I'm a meter away from losing a flat and being kicked out of the country, and it makes me have bad dreams every night now
20:08:57 <esowiki> <riv> omg that sounds horrible and stressful D:
20:10:50 <esowiki> <b_jonas> also, don't take this the wrong way, but hearing that from other people also makes it seem like this is back to good old #esoteric, because they're willing to share more than I do
20:11:09 <esowiki> <b_jonas> about their problems, that is, not that I'm too careful about letting private details on
20:14:39 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and I think that one terrible time when I was in a psychiatric hospital in 2018, the one I don't talk about often, part of what helped me shrug some of it off (besides my parents' care and being lucky about which doctor happened to do urgent care that night) was that I recalled that at least two different people on #esoteric told me earlier about when they were in psychiatric hospital, and I wasn't
20:14:45 <esowiki> <b_jonas> thinking they were in great state, but they survived being in a hospital, one even for an extended time and IRCing from there, and didn't seem to be completely broken even months after,
20:15:05 <esowiki> <b_jonas> plus similar stories from other weird parts of the internet
20:15:44 <esowiki> <b_jonas> although it also worked because at least I did learn what I really should pay attention to in order to not get back there again
20:16:35 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I just rarely feel stupid enough to discuss it in logged and googleable parts of the internet, especially as I know my nick isn't all that secret
20:18:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> and it would have been wiser to use a disposable alternate nick, if not now, at least that one time when I posted about it to a forum
20:19:35 <esowiki> <nakilon> woah, there are at least three people here who were in psychiatric hospitals?
20:20:27 <esowiki> <riv> I do miss some of the people who used to come here
20:22:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> I would probably not mind to get stuck in anywhere as long as there are some family members or friends to take care of your home, bills, hypothetical cat, etc.
20:22:31 <esowiki> <riv> lol, hypothetical cat
20:32:14 <esowiki> <b_jonas> at least if you count people who used to be here at some point but might not visit now
20:34:04 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I wasn't *stuck*. it was a short time, I knew I'd get out soon, that's what the doctor said to me and she was right, and once she even allowed me to temporarily leave for a few hours in what she said was against the hospital's rules (not that I have illusions about those rules consistently being kept) because my family promised to bring me back
20:34:36 <esowiki> <b_jonas> it's the at least one other user, the one who IRCed from the hospital, regularly, who was stuck
20:35:30 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I don't pretend that I'm not stuck with a psychiatric condition that I'd have to be careful with for my whole life even if I managed to get my life mostly normal, but I was not stuck in the hospital
20:59:01 <esowiki> <b_jonas> also hi future boss, who will probably find this months or years from now when searching for my name, I know you're listening and want to find out what I'm hiding by looking on the internet and asking previous employers' opinions, and you're going to pay me less money if you don't just reject me completely, but I think I wouldn't want to work in a company that has managers less diligent than that, I
20:59:07 <esowiki> <b_jonas> couldn't trust that they could keep themselves in the business
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21:35:39 <esowiki> <aarchi> Does anyone by chance have a copy of the HaPyLi compiler? It's a Haskell/Python/Lisp-like language that compiles to Whitespace.
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21:36:41 <esowiki> <aarchi> The website went offline around 2012 and it wasn't completely archived on the Internet Archive.
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21:56:52 <esowiki> <pikhq> <CTCP>ACTION counts herself very glad nobody else wants pikhq<CTCP>
21:57:36 <esowiki> <pikhq> riv: yeah, i miss some people who used to be here too. still in touch with some though i don't talk with them much; also still frequently in touch with others
21:58:23 <esowiki> <pikhq> and re: psych hospital. glad i've never been in one but fuck i've been close
22:00:03 <esowiki> <pikhq> turns out being into absolutely weird programming languages has a high overlap with just being weird as a person in one of a few different ways
22:01:53 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84457&oldid=84358 * Zzo38 * (+94) The {edit} macro in Free Hero Mesh
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22:11:25 <esowiki> <pikhq> i mean i am very much a weird person so :p
22:22:40 <esowiki> <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, but how do so many of those kinds of people actually find their way here, that's what I don't understand
22:24:46 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I don't understand that even after I just personally recommended this channel to someone and they came here
22:25:09 <esowiki> <b_jonas> because how did I find them in first place
22:25:17 <esowiki> <pikhq> if you're that sort of weird you're gonna actively seek it out
22:26:59 <esowiki> <zzo38> I don't have a copy of the HaPyLi
22:32:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hjoker4 * New user account
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22:49:13 <esowiki> <zzo38> Do you like the picture editor of Free Hero Mesh?
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23:07:42 <esowiki> <zzo38> Will they add the Quasijarus compression format into newer versions of GNU/Linux and/or non-Quasijarus BSD?
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23:14:51 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84458&oldid=84356 * Zero player rodent * (+211)
23:18:03 <esowiki> <sknebel> if you ever dig into esolangs even a bit and want to talk to people into them this channel is hard to not find. the esolangs wiki is like the resource referenced everywhere after all
23:26:28 <esowiki> <pikhq> hence how i found it when i was, like, 15
23:40:42 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84459&oldid=84458 * Zero player rodent * (+99)
23:47:01 <esowiki> [[VBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84460&oldid=84440 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Implementations */ Cats
23:47:51 <esowiki> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84461&oldid=84459 * Zero player rodent * (+149)
23:48:24 <esowiki> [[GotoFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84462&oldid=83713 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) /* Implementations */ Cats, see also
23:48:41 <esowiki> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84463&oldid=74090 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* See also */ See also.
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23:53:25 <orbitaldecay17> riv: yep! I was playing around with bitfuck a few years ago.
23:53:57 <orbitaldecay17> specifically messing around with the reversible variant, which permits some interesting minimizations
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00:00:26 <esowiki> [[Turkey]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84464 * ResU * (+1743) Created page with "Turkey is a derivative of [[Chicken]]. It was created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Opcode !Description |- |1 |Prints "turkey". |- |2-27 |Prints t..."
00:04:19 <esowiki> [[GotoFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84465&oldid=84462 * ResU * (-1) /* Instructions */
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00:06:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Delta Salein ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84466 * Salpynx * (+818) reverse engineering a possible truth machine
00:12:17 <esowiki> [[2Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84467&oldid=83521 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Implementations */ Cat
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00:14:21 <esowiki> [[BeeScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84468&oldid=82929 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) Cat /* Implementations */
00:15:30 <esowiki> [[BrainIf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84469&oldid=83085 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* Implementations */ Cats
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01:04:00 <esowiki> <keegan> I have been in a psych hospital
01:04:07 <esowiki> <keegan> twice, for one night each
01:04:28 <esowiki> <keegan> they remembered me the second time even though it was a few years later
01:04:50 <esowiki> <keegan> not sure how to feel about that
01:05:05 <esowiki> <keegan> BBL, going mushroom hunting
01:05:10 <esowiki> <keegan> peace and love to all
01:10:49 <esowiki> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84470&oldid=84399 * ResU * (+1437)
01:34:02 <esowiki> <oerjan> me too. if i remember right, i count at least 5 former or current #esotericians.
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02:10:00 <esowiki> <pikhq> keegan: oh i thought the mushroom hunting trip started earlier!
02:10:11 <esowiki> <pikhq> keegan: well, enjoy <3
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05:13:27 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I guess it helps that the channel is so old, and has logs on the searchable internet going back for so long
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05:37:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> should I rewatch One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
05:39:39 <esowiki> <nakilon> yay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders_in_film
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05:48:25 <esowiki> <b_jonas> oerjan: I can believe 5, but it wouldn't have helped me to know the number, as opposed to specific first person anecdotes by people who also chatted about other things here that mattered more than knowing in abstract how many such people there were
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06:58:31 <esowiki> <zzo38> All of the rounds of ChaCha20 is reversible except the final round, isn't it?
07:03:24 <esowiki> <riv> i would think either all of it or none of it is reversible
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07:04:21 <esowiki> <riv> oh the rounds are reversible, but the bit where they add the input is not reversible
07:04:27 <esowiki> <riv> unless you know the input already
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07:20:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MaowImpl * New user account
07:28:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84471&oldid=84436 * MaowImpl * (+190) MaowImpl
07:34:12 <esowiki> <zzo38> Yes, that is what I meant
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09:38:51 <esowiki> [[DoFor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84472 * TinyGuy32 * (+1785) Created page with "==DoFor== DoFor is an esoteric programing language. It is special because it uses the same command for input, output and variables. ==Commands:== {| class="wikitable" |+..."
09:39:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84473&oldid=84444 * TinyGuy32 * (+12) /* Non-alphabetic */
09:41:31 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84474&oldid=84473 * TinyGuy32 * (+12) /* D */
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12:44:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WriteOnly * New user account
12:45:06 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84475&oldid=84474 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Non-alphabetic */ Remove another alphabetic language from non-alphabetic list
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12:54:41 <esowiki> [[For The Worthy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84476&oldid=84441 * Kermek * (+15)
12:56:19 <esowiki> [[Coeus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84477&oldid=84401 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+16) Improved the interpreter hyperlink text.
12:56:23 <esowiki> [[User:Kermek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84478 * Kermek * (+84) Created page with "==Contributions== Created [https://esolangs.org/wiki/For_The_Worthy For The Worthy]."
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13:36:33 <esowiki> [[Snek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84479 * KingJellyfish * (+883) Created page with "== Snek == A language made almost entirely by the following characters: <code>| _ / \</code>. An instruction pointer moves along the "paths" made by these characters and comm..."
13:42:12 <esowiki> [[Snek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84480&oldid=84479 * KingJellyfish * (-513)
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13:58:09 <esowiki> [[Snek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84481&oldid=84480 * KingJellyfish * (+2661)
14:01:19 <esowiki> [[Snek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84482&oldid=84481 * KingJellyfish * (+227)
14:01:50 <esowiki> [[Snek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84483&oldid=84482 * KingJellyfish * (-1)
14:09:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84484&oldid=84471 * WriteOnly * (+380)
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14:24:29 <esowiki> [[Coeus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84485&oldid=84477 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+497) Improved formatting of code tokens and added a CAT program example.
14:28:17 <esowiki> <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1236.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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14:36:21 <esowiki> [[User:WriteOnly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84486 * WriteOnly * (+293) Created page with "Hi, I am hobby Haskeller. My dream is run Scheme interpreter on Brainfuck, ETA, Funge, Piet, Subleq and Whitespace. Work is going slow because I am constantly improving my c..."
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15:02:25 <esowiki> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84487&oldid=83148 * Zero player rodent * (+372)
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15:07:08 <esowiki> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84488&oldid=84487 * Zero player rodent * (-3)
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15:13:50 <esowiki> [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84489&oldid=84286 * Zero player rodent * (+607)
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15:44:15 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84490&oldid=81259 * VilgotanL * (+345) added my self-interpreter
15:56:55 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84491&oldid=84453 * GreenThePear * (+204) /* Expressions */ Parenthesis!
16:14:51 <esowiki> [[User:WriteOnly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84492&oldid=84486 * WriteOnly * (+94)
16:15:50 <esowiki> [[User:WriteOnly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84493&oldid=84492 * WriteOnly * (+118)
16:16:10 <esowiki> [[ETA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84494&oldid=30446 * WriteOnly * (+160)
16:17:08 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84495&oldid=84491 * GreenThePear * (+341) /* Examples */ Factorial!
16:17:19 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84496&oldid=84495 * GreenThePear * (+1)
16:19:39 <esowiki> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84497&oldid=84173 * WriteOnly * (+180)
16:20:03 <esowiki> [[ETA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84498&oldid=84494 * WriteOnly * (+6)
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17:34:52 <esowiki> <pikhq> <CTCP>ACTION meows<CTCP>
18:00:38 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84499&oldid=84457 * Zzo38 * (+813) Free Hero Mesh preprocessor
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20:07:04 <esowiki> [[VBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84500&oldid=84460 * VilgotanL * (-97) change infinite counter to slightly smaller version
20:14:17 <esowiki> [[VBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84501&oldid=84500 * VilgotanL * (-8) minify infinite counter slightly more
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20:51:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fox * New user account
21:03:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84502&oldid=84484 * Fox * (+92)
21:17:35 <esowiki> [[ItOi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84503 * Grs * (+982) Created page with "ItOi or Input to Output instantly is a joke esoteric programming language by ~~~ that only contains two command. == Command == The only command is: {| class="wikitable" |+ Com..."
21:18:56 <esowiki> [[ItOi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84504&oldid=84503 * Grs * (+4) /* Command */
21:24:28 <esowiki> [[RandBow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84505 * Fox * (+93) Created page with "'''RandBow''' is a visual esoteric programing language. Its like a mix of brainfuck and piet."
21:25:22 <esowiki> [[RandBow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84506&oldid=84505 * Fox * (+10)
21:25:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xxmarijnw * New user account
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21:29:36 <esowiki> [[RandBow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84507&oldid=84506 * Fox * (+894)
21:32:11 <esowiki> [[RandBow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84508&oldid=84507 * Fox * (+9)
21:33:27 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84509&oldid=84220 * Grs * (+82) /* General languages */ ItOi by Grs
21:33:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84510&oldid=84502 * Xxmarijnw * (+188) /* Introductions */
21:33:42 <esowiki> [[Pinocchio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84511&oldid=38260 * Xxmarijnw * (+157) Cleanup and fix example
21:34:11 <esowiki> [[User:Xxmarijnw]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84512 * Xxmarijnw * (+0) Created blank page
21:34:18 <esowiki> [[User:Xxmarijnw]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84513&oldid=84512 * Xxmarijnw * (+23)
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21:43:37 <esowiki> [[RandBow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84514&oldid=84508 * Fox * (+255)
22:09:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dylanrafael05 * New user account
22:12:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84515&oldid=84510 * Dylanrafael05 * (+174) /* Introductions */
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23:10:53 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84516&oldid=83074 * Makonede * (-9)
23:12:39 <esowiki> [[Py256]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84517 * Makonede * (+22203) Created page with "''Not to be confused with [[256]].'' '''Py256''' is a golfing language by [[User:Makonede]]. It uses Base-256 compression to encode long hexadecimal numbers representing prog..."
23:14:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84518&oldid=84475 * Makonede * (+12)
23:14:32 <esowiki> [[User:Makonede]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84519&oldid=82172 * Makonede * (+11)
23:15:16 <esowiki> <oren> https://pastebin.com/dDrduun1
23:15:32 <esowiki> <oren> I made a closure thingy in C
23:18:17 <esowiki> <oren> tldr it copies entire page that the addF function is on, replaces some data to enclose the argumnet, and returns the copied + modified function
23:18:56 <esowiki> <zzo38> That isn't going to be portable, I think
23:22:42 <esowiki> <pikhq> i did a closure thing in c ages ago, though it is _profoundly_ hacky
23:23:08 <esowiki> <pikhq> https://github.com/pikhq/clambda-demo there we are
23:23:32 <esowiki> <pikhq> (portable, but extremely GCC-specific)
23:26:23 <esowiki> <zzo38> I use some GNU extensions in C programming, although there are other compilers that support some of these extensions too
23:31:50 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84520&oldid=84517 * Makonede * (+0)
23:33:48 <esowiki> <pikhq> i'm not sure what would be a nice API in general
23:34:13 <esowiki> <pikhq> tbh i've stopped trying to be clever in c; i've come to the conclusion that c is best served by writing _very_ dumb and obviously-correct code
23:50:53 <esowiki> <oren> well ideally, i'd like it to be such that the returned function looks like any other function pointer to a funtion with that signature
23:52:10 <esowiki> <oren> there would be two ways of doing that: have every function take a closure pointer, perhaps in a dedicated register in the ABI
23:52:50 <esowiki> <oren> or, alternatively, the function pointer itself would somehow
23:58:17 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84521&oldid=84520 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) Cat, template
23:59:31 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84522&oldid=84045 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Distinguish
00:05:17 <esowiki> [[Pinocchio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84523&oldid=84511 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) Cats, misc
00:18:54 <esowiki> [[RandBow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84524&oldid=84514 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+91) /* Rules */ Cats,
00:40:45 <esowiki> <b_jonas> I just realized that most kids from the smartphone generation might not understand what "I will not buy this record, it is scratched." means
00:45:48 <esowiki> <pikhq> nah, there's a bit of a resurgence now
00:46:20 <esowiki> <FuckAndrewLee> so we fully over here now, or what.
00:46:27 <esowiki> <pikhq> b_jonas: records are no longer a mainstream standard medium but they've taken on a bit of a second life as a collector's format
00:46:36 <esowiki> <FuckAndrewLee> the nick db and the channel db got wiped.
00:46:56 <esowiki> <FuckAndrewLee> by herr lee.
00:49:23 <esowiki> <oerjan> . o O ( i will not buy this smartphone, it is scratched )
00:51:09 <esowiki> <Corbin> b_jonas: What pikhq said. They know what "a record" is, but they think that they make you look old or like a hipster. (I have niblings who have explained my uncoolness.)
00:52:33 <esowiki> <zzo38> What someone told me is that phonograph records are good quality only the first time they are played
00:52:56 <esowiki> <oerjan> FuckAndrewLee: sheesh. on the bright side maybe nakilon will finally admit we were right :P
00:54:24 <esowiki> <pikhq> idk i think nakilon might be rasengan
00:55:51 <esowiki> <FuckAndrewLee> oerjan: hahahahaha.
00:59:00 <esowiki> <oren> I listen to most of my music on low-bitrate mp3s
00:59:05 <esowiki> <oerjan> pikhq: i seriously doubt lee is into esolang stuff
01:00:51 <esowiki> <b_jonas> Corbin, pikhq: do they know about CDs and DVDs?
01:01:12 <esowiki> <oren> some people think 32k is too low tho
01:01:36 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84525&oldid=84521 * Makonede * (-229)
01:01:53 <esowiki> <pikhq> b_jonas: depends on the kids' age but probably. they're no longer current but they're not _that_ far removed from currency
01:02:13 <esowiki> <pikhq> just like a typical kid circa 2000 would still know about vhs even though it was an obsolete format then
01:02:42 <esowiki> <zzo38> The advantage of phonograph record is the simplicity of the format; it is a groovy format, rather than a digital one, and you might be able to play even if the power out (if you have one that doesn't need the power). Other than that, it isn't really the advantage generally
01:03:38 <esowiki> <oren> but I did tests, and was unable to hear any difference between 128kb/s and the same songs at 32kb/s
01:04:07 <esowiki> <Corbin> b_jonas: Oh yeah. They're experts on the difference between different disc formats. Do you remember when you learned that MIDI, WAV, and AVI were all different? Same sort of story.
01:05:00 <esowiki> <pikhq> oren: you may want to see an audiologist, i think you have severe hearing loss
01:05:18 <esowiki> <pikhq> (this is like claiming you can't see the difference between 32bpp and 2bpp)
01:10:10 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84526&oldid=84525 * Makonede * (+7)
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01:20:55 <esowiki> <oren> have you tested it yourself?
01:22:05 <esowiki> <oren> ffmpeg -i some.mp3 -b:a 32k some_out.mp3
01:23:04 <esowiki> <pikhq> 32kbps mp3 isn't merely "i can tell the difference" low it's "this sounds like hold music on a phone call" low
01:24:06 <esowiki> <oren> hmm... maybe specific characteristics of the music i'm testing with
01:25:24 <esowiki> <oren> oh duh, these are youtube rips, the original probably was already low-bitrate
01:26:22 <esowiki> <pikhq> yeah, by way of comparison around 42kbps is considered acceptable for _speech_ encoding with mp3
01:27:17 <esowiki> <oerjan> . o O ( oren gets all his music from phone calls holding )
01:29:33 <esowiki> <oren> okay... did u know that VLC doesn't show the actual bitrate of an mp3, just the bitrate it *says* it has?
01:30:41 <esowiki> <oren> which means, that if something is transcoded to a low-quality youtube and back to 128kb/s
01:35:15 <esowiki> <oren> however, one of these mp3's *says* in vlc 8kb/s
01:37:37 <esowiki> <oren> https://imgur.com/2x60tVI
01:38:15 <esowiki> <oren> i downloaded it sometime prior to 2009
01:39:06 <esowiki> <pikhq> i guarantee you'd know if it actually was though
01:40:29 <esowiki> <oren> based on the file size it's 24 kb/s
01:40:45 <esowiki> <oren> or 3 kilobytes per second
01:44:23 <esowiki> <oren> that at least explains why transcoding to 32 kb/s makes no difference for a lot of these... their actual qulity is already very low
02:01:56 <esowiki> [[User:MaowImpl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84527 * MaowImpl * (+261) My page :)
02:02:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * MaowImpl * uploaded "[[File:MaowImpl July2020.png]]": MaowImpl's profile picture as of July 2020.
02:03:57 <esowiki> [[User:MaowImpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84529&oldid=84527 * MaowImpl * (+44)
02:06:26 <esowiki> [[User:MaowImpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84530&oldid=84529 * MaowImpl * (+102)
02:09:45 <esowiki> [[User:MaowImpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84531&oldid=84530 * MaowImpl * (-16)
02:26:34 <esowiki> [[Py256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84532&oldid=84526 * Makonede * (+109)
02:34:51 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84533&oldid=84532 * Makonede * (+101)
03:16:34 <esowiki> [[FurASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84534 * MaowImpl * (+3103) an alright page, hope it's good enough for the wonderful language of FurASM, our wonderful god
03:16:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * MaowImpl * uploaded "[[File:FurASM Logo.png]]"
03:17:46 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84536&oldid=84533 * Makonede * (+26)
03:18:45 <esowiki> [[FurASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84537&oldid=84534 * MaowImpl * (+6) fixed image size
03:20:05 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84538&oldid=84509 * MaowImpl * (+118) FurASM
03:20:10 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84539&oldid=84536 * Makonede * (+12)
05:33:47 <esowiki> [[Finites at Fredy's]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84540&oldid=83102 * Salpynx * (+22) Thematic cat
06:00:26 <esowiki> [[Finites at Fredy's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84541&oldid=84540 * Salpynx * (+549) OPENQASM 2.0 conversion
07:40:09 <esowiki> <nakilon> at first you were saying it's bad that he has our "personal data" while being so much diletant in subject of its protection that you create the same account on another network thinking that it would improve anything, lol, using the same nicknames and channels
07:40:37 <esowiki> <nakilon> now when the data is purged you are saying "oh no, it's bad that they now DON'T have the data", lol
07:41:23 <esowiki> <nakilon> and who should you blame in sabotaging and instability other than yourself being supporting on the network ruining
07:42:46 <esowiki> <nakilon> you fucked up your own home
07:42:56 <esowiki> <nakilon> shitted and then abandoned it
07:43:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> tomorrow network owners will say they don't like another leader and you'll repeat it after them again
08:02:41 <esowiki> <Taneb> I've decided that I think that SQL is kind of neat
08:12:43 <esowiki> <spruit11> dear people and ops. please confirm the transition from freenode to libera
08:14:03 <esowiki> <Taneb> spruit11: wiki confirms it: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal
08:15:05 <esowiki> <spruit11> is b_jonas moving too?
08:15:45 <esowiki> <spruit11> ah, well. no need to answer. I'll just see what happens the next week.
08:16:05 <esowiki> <myname> https://isfreenodedeadyet.com
08:18:01 <esowiki> <spruit11> looks like it's a redirect since I ended up here
08:19:20 <esowiki> <myname> i'm curious about how many channels are going to re-register in general
08:35:11 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84542&oldid=84496 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+33) /* See also */
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08:40:09 <esowiki> <FireFly> [ #'j eval services have been restored, btw'
08:40:33 <esowiki> <FireFly> I figured you probably want it in here since it was in #esoteric
08:42:04 <esowiki> <Taneb> I think I crashed it by private messaging it
08:48:29 <esowiki> <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
08:52:59 <esowiki> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84543&oldid=84472 * TinyGuy32 * (+795)
08:53:57 <esowiki> <Taneb> fungot, what do you think about relational algebras?
08:53:57 <esowiki> <fungot> Taneb: 4 legs to a table doesn't even seem to be
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08:55:12 <esowiki> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84544&oldid=84543 * TinyGuy32 * (+0) /* calling a function: */
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09:14:35 <esowiki> <fungot> ^(HackEso|lambdabot|metasepia|idris-bot|blsqbot|j-bot|esolangs|velik|perlbot)!
09:14:49 <esowiki> <fizzie> Looks like I did keep j-bot on the list.
09:23:25 <esowiki> <fizzie> Also, I'm still register over on the other side, so either they ported over accounts after all, or I'm still in some old chunk of the network after the server I was on disconnected.
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09:29:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> Mm. It didn't have a MOTD on the server, so I sort of assumed it had to be new.
09:32:30 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, guess so. And to be fair, it did have *a* MOTD:
09:32:32 <esowiki> <fizzie> "rinnegan.freenode.net Message of the Day - This is charybdis MOTD you might replace it, but if not your friends will laugh at you."
09:33:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> That's s little like the "Apache is installed" page you get sometimes.
09:42:31 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> oren: I wonder if you could use a single thread-specific variable to pass the closure upvalue, and then you could have the closure wrappers be copies of the same short function regardless the prototype of the wrapped function, you implement the wrapper directly in assembly and only substitute the upvalue constant and the function address, as then
09:42:32 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> this wrapper won't need to access the stack or saved/parameter registers and just jumps directly to the wrapped function after saving the value to the thread-specific variable.
09:43:51 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> it's not the most efficient way to do this, but then if you wanted something efficient, you wouldn't use this kind of closure, only saner interfaces that pass around the upvalue together with the function pointer\
09:49:25 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> int-e, spruit11: I'm not connecting to freenode anymore, though I might try to connect in the future if I want to track down out where some channel moved or something like that
09:51:08 <esowiki> <j-bot> Taneb: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
09:51:24 <esowiki> <Taneb> (that's what I PM'd j-bot earlier just before it quit and rejoined)
09:52:23 <esowiki> <FireFly> I'll check the logs later
09:54:12 <esowiki> <FireFly> in `ircgot': error from irc client: :tungsten.libera.chat 486 j-bot Taneb :You must log
09:54:13 <esowiki> <FireFly> in with services to message this user (RuntimeError)
09:55:41 <esowiki> <FireFly> I should figure out giving it an account later, but also not entirely sure that should cause it to crash
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09:59:17 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> FireFly: because it's an error code that the code doesn't recognize. you should probably ignore that error so that if someone has that user mode flag set and you can't message them, it doesn't crash.
09:59:21 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> the numeric error code that is
09:59:30 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> jevalbot dies on unknown numeric error codes
09:59:36 <esowiki> <j-bot> wib_jonas, jevalbot source is https://github.com/FireyFly/jevalbot (originally http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz)
10:00:13 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> FireFly: ignore it here: https://github.com/FireyFly/jevalbot/blob/master/jeval.rb#L1064
10:00:43 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> or perhaps at https://github.com/FireyFly/jevalbot/blob/master/jeval.rb#L1070 instead\
10:06:35 <esowiki> <spruit11> yah, all channel and people I more or less care about seemed to have moved so I tried to help out a bit and then deleted the network.
10:06:52 <esowiki> <spruit11> we moved. no point looking back
10:07:02 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> FireFly: I mean the user modes +R and +G in the target user
10:08:21 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> on that note, if you're a channel op or wiki admin and want to get channel rights to the OFTC channels #esolangs (and #esoteric ) which is our escape route, contact b_jonas
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10:40:31 <esowiki> <FireFly> wib_jonas: yeah, I probably should, I'll look at that later
10:57:13 <esowiki> [[FurASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84545&oldid=84537 * MaowImpl * (+22)
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11:20:49 <esowiki> <fizzie> Heh, out of curiosity went to check the raw logs as to what server the esowiki bot had connected to this morning, since I don't see it myself. Looks like it's connected to something that calls itself "lol.test.freenode.net".
12:23:55 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84546&oldid=77955 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) /* Interpreters */ See also
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13:08:53 <esowiki> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84547&oldid=84542 * GreenThePear * (+4) Since it was actually inspired by Airline food, I decided to put that straight in the first paragraph instead
13:21:45 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> ``` coins # some people pointed out that "libera" sounds like a name for a cryptocurrency, so just want to check if there's any easter egg here
13:21:48 <esowiki> <HackEso> antalcoin codcoin waitcoin vilcoin nandcoin alerisorcoin minedcoin hq9+coin attecoin remocoin iirgcoin simumcoin ouercoin migurehecoin adjcoin webcoin meycoin tectcoin carintycoin firmacoin
13:22:03 <esowiki> <wib_jonas> why does this rainbow?
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14:09:08 <esowiki> [[User:Grs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84548&oldid=84011 * Grs * (+26)
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15:19:53 <esowiki> <imode1> nakilon: so why don't you fucking leave here you absolute blind fuck.
15:36:35 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84549&oldid=84346 * Toxinite * (+69)
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15:42:27 <esowiki> <imode> int-e: and you think the person I was resonding to was a breath of fresh air?
15:42:37 <esowiki> <Corbin> I agree that language is inappropriate. Let's ban language.
15:43:03 <esowiki> <imode> we'll all communicate in blinks.
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16:04:41 <esowiki> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84550&oldid=84245 * S1(210) * (+149) /* Overview */ added list unpacking
16:10:52 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84551&oldid=84549 * Toxinite * (+205)
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17:03:41 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84552&oldid=84539 * Makonede * (+5)
17:07:36 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84553&oldid=84552 * Makonede * (-1)
17:08:00 <esowiki> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84554&oldid=84553 * Makonede * (+1)
17:33:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84555 * ResU * (+998) Created page with "(Note: The title of this page was made to be a palindrome. There is no Esolang:Klat gnalosE.) Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE was created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. The commands are..."
17:42:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84556&oldid=84555 * ResU * (-15) /* a=b */
17:43:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84557&oldid=84556 * ResU * (-7) /* < on tape */
17:47:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84558&oldid=84557 * ResU * (-17) /* Hello, world! */
17:49:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84559&oldid=84558 * ResU * (+17) /* Truth machine */
17:50:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84560&oldid=84559 * ResU * (+36) /* Truth machine */
17:55:23 <esowiki> [[User:ResU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84561&oldid=84368 * ResU * (+49) /* My esolangs: */
17:56:04 <esowiki> [[User:ResU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84562&oldid=84561 * ResU * (+0) /* My esolangs: */
18:03:11 <esowiki> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84563&oldid=84551 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+307) Cats/format and clarification (please fix if wrong)
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18:25:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AceKiron * New user account
18:29:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84564&oldid=84515 * AceKiron * (+231)
18:33:49 <esowiki> [[User:AceKiron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84565 * AceKiron * (+107) Created page with "15 year/old programmer who made School, an [[esoteric programming language]] soon to be added to this wiki."
19:00:12 <esowiki> <Sgeo_> Where does the bridge go? Classic Freenode or new Freenode?
19:18:35 <esowiki> <fizzie> It goes to new right now.
19:18:46 <esowiki> <fizzie> Judging from the fact that I ended up in classic, and I don't see it.
19:19:11 <esowiki> <fizzie> Plus the server it connected to says it's InspIRCd-3, which AIUI is what they switched over to.
19:20:41 <esowiki> <fizzie> I'm pretty puzzled by the continued existence of classic. I got disconnected at around 10am local time, but then (even though I've got it configured as chat.freenode.net, not any specific server) landed on one of the classic servers anyway. And then it's just continued to work. I'd've imagined they'd just terminate all of the old ones.
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19:20:57 <esowiki> <nakilon> 18:19:53 <imode1> nakilon: so why don't you fucking leave here you absolute blind fuck.
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19:21:26 <esowiki> <fizzie> melanophore: In some sense, yes.
19:21:32 <esowiki> <Taneb> fizzie: there has been at least two freenode classics, fwiw. One with services, one without
19:21:58 <esowiki> <nakilon> your words show you to be the smellest piece of shit I've seen for last few months
19:22:10 <esowiki> <imode> nakilon: shut the fuck up you vile troll.
19:22:13 <esowiki> <nakilon> nice achievent, someone might proud
19:22:15 <esowiki> <imode> back on ignore you go.
19:22:22 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, I'm in one where I got authenticated, in case that means something. But I imagine it won't be around *much* longer.
19:23:47 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e new purpose for you?
19:25:00 <esowiki> <nakilon> I "insult everyone in sight?"
19:25:10 <esowiki> <nakilon> wash your mouthes kids, before you talk
19:25:19 <esowiki> <fizzie> Since I'm not planning to register the channel in the new network, I'll probably disable the bridge as well.
19:25:22 <esowiki> <imode> int-e: it's fruitless, someone should just ban him already.
19:25:40 <esowiki> <imode> his intent is to troll. if he disagreed, he'd stay on freenode and leave everybody alone.
19:25:56 <esowiki> <imode> that hellhole is certainly welcoming to small-minded freaks.
19:26:56 <esowiki> <nakilon> somehow you even feel the need to continue shitting even here
19:27:52 <esowiki> <imode> I love the freaks that just jump on to Libera to insult people. yeah, that's why you're not and never will be welcome.
19:28:09 <esowiki> <imode> it's an excuse to jump out of the woodwork and yell at people you don't like.
19:28:25 <esowiki> <imode> go back to your termite-ridden shithole.
19:28:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> I can't care less of where are switched too, which network, but what is obvious here is that the freenode did nothing bad to this channel while you definitely pollute it
19:32:56 <esowiki> <fizzie> FWIW I suspect we should probably just drop the whole topic, and I imagine it'll eventually stop coming up naturally. nakilon does talk a lot about actual esolangs stuff, unlike few *actual* trolls we've had over the years. (Not to say I don't think the way they're commenting isn't deliberately insulting.)
19:33:30 <esowiki> <imode> poisoned minds typically regurgitate poison.
19:33:45 <esowiki> <fizzie> Personally I'm kind of more disturbed by the IRCCloud ban than the database wipe. Though I imagine there's some backstory behind there.
19:34:25 <esowiki> <imode> yeah it's not like we antagonized him.
19:34:35 <esowiki> <imode> I even unignored him, thinking he cooled off.
19:34:49 <esowiki> <imode> int-e: meh, I wasn't participating here in that fashion.
19:35:21 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think as a reaction, mostly, though I certainly haven't fully logread.
19:35:26 <esowiki> <fizzie> 01:52 <oerjan> [..] on the bright side maybe nakilon will finally admit we were right :P
19:35:36 <esowiki> <fizzie> That's the sort of name-dropping I imagine most people would say *something* to.
19:35:44 <esowiki> <imode> true. I do respond when highlighted.
19:36:35 <esowiki> <arseniiv> I don’t like the tone too
19:37:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, fair; the topic *is* kind of relevant, since that's where we were, and now we're here.
19:38:24 <esowiki> <arseniiv> (offtopic: there was a discussion of free variables on ##math today yay)
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19:39:07 <esowiki> <imode> the problem is you're going to get a larger set of "lee sympathizers" because 1. people enjoy being contrarians/trolling, 2. people haven't kept up with the insanity, but I don't think there's many people who will end up sympathizers after that, or 3. people actually enjoy the culture that lee is trying to bring in, which is some 4chan shit considering l0de is now staff.
19:39:46 <esowiki> <imode> my point is.. the useful, constructive conversation moved and left a vacuum for a lot of horrible conversation.
19:39:59 <esowiki> <imode> probably for the time being, yes.
19:40:13 <esowiki> <imode> if you want it you can go to ##freenode on this network, which will let you shitpost until your eyes bleed.
19:42:09 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, before we stop talking about it completely, what's the consensus on the bridge and logs.esolangs.org, should I just call it a day and drop the new-freenode 'esowiki' bot? The nickname is now unregistered, the channel is unregistered, and even before all this latest I don't think there were more than one or two actual bridged conversations...
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19:43:14 <esowiki> <imode> it'd be one thing if there was a presence on the network, but.. everybody is here now.
19:44:28 <esowiki> <fizzie> Heh, I was going to say "OTOH, there's still X users on the old-freenode #esoteric who might land in there", but looks like I *finally* got disconnected from there.
19:45:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> 22:33:58 <int-e> Yes, we should. But *nakilon* kept bringing up this topic. -- this is a lie; I opened chat in the morning and the only talk here was you guys about what happened to freenode services, I left my opinion and went to the city, and when I came back I read about myself "you fucking leave here you absolute blind fuck" and now even
19:45:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> "small-minded freaks -- is it how the "22:34:25 <imode> yeah it's not like we antagonized him." look like or rather "you're not and never will be welcome."? and btw how doesn't "22:29:16 <imode> saw that comin'" look like a "intent is to troll."? must be my weak English understanding, right? lol -- it's actually you who bring the news about
19:45:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> rasengan again and again, I don't even follow, just read randomly onlyfrom this channel, you are the source -- I can'r "drop the topic" because you ARE purposefully create a flame here and your behaviour and personal insults on me are placing absolutely far away from being considered any minimally worth to be respected random internet stranger
19:46:36 <esowiki> <nakilon> I'm being insulted and falsely accused
19:47:19 <esowiki> <fizzie> Hmm, my bouncer's not managing to connect to the new thing. "tls_handshake: handshake failed: unexpected EOF"
19:48:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> serioudly go get a room with imode
19:48:29 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's not his first and not even second try to create a flame about me
19:50:32 <esowiki> <imode> I wouldn't be surprised if SSL is just like, not enabled on the new infra.
19:50:54 <esowiki> <myname> "let's close down the old server and replace them with untested shit"
19:51:05 <esowiki> <imode> par for the course
19:51:20 <esowiki> <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't like my client certificate, now that it's unregistered. Though that sounds unlikely too.
19:51:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> Ten minutes earlier it was failing with "server does not support sasl" instead.
19:52:05 <esowiki> <fizzie> But in the interests of fairness, this bouncer (pounce) is probably the most opinionated client there is.
19:52:15 <esowiki> <imode> he's still going lmao.
19:52:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> i don't care about rasengar or whoever, it's your drama
19:52:54 <esowiki> <nakilon> that you are so mad about someone to not agree iwth you about
19:53:42 <esowiki> <myname> "someone to not agree with you about" is not what you do
19:53:55 <esowiki> <myname> you don't disagree, you insult people for making choices
19:54:54 <esowiki> <fizzie> int-e: Oh, right, good point. Though in a perfect world the message for that would not be "does not support sasl" but something else.
19:56:43 <esowiki> <imode> I don't think you'll find dissenting opinions in this channel.
19:56:53 <esowiki> <fizzie> Well, good excuse to see how frustrated I get trying to reconfigure things on a phone.
19:58:11 <esowiki> <nakilon> it's like if I was an admin at some company and then I disliked the CEO and left, leaving servers/software to fall apart and then say "ahaha, see? it's all broken because of you"
19:58:56 <esowiki> <myname> uhm, you do realize they could have just not changed the server software?
19:59:25 <esowiki> <myname> they _actively_ switched to a software which configuration they obviously did not test very well
19:59:40 <esowiki> <imode> why are you bothering to pay attention to an obvious bait.
19:59:50 <esowiki> <nakilon> int-e ask those who can't drop it, not me
19:59:51 <esowiki> <spruit11> this conversation is starting to bother me
20:00:41 <esowiki> <nakilon> I was just respoinding to Sgeo
20:01:58 <esowiki> <Corbin> nakilon: Maybe modify your feelings?
20:02:18 <esowiki> <pikhq> nakilon: i mean, if a company can be taken down by a single sysadmin leaving, it is in fact the ceo's fault when the sysadmin leaves and it all breaks. that's how "being in charge" works
20:02:42 <esowiki> <pikhq> that's a well-known risk of poor management decisions that effective leaders try to mitigate
20:03:04 <esowiki> <pikhq> tho i should probably drop the subject
20:03:12 <esowiki> <pikhq> i don't think there's anything productive to be said here
20:03:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> here not just one sysdaimn has left though but a half or most of staff AFAIK
20:03:47 <esowiki> <nakilon> and people are keeping judging what happends without any real knowledge
20:04:55 <esowiki> <nakilon> "23:03:05 <Sgeo> They took over channels en mass based on topic" -- this is a lie people keep repeating purposefully not saying that there was an apology and a message that that was a script error
20:05:12 <esowiki> <myname> nakilon: all the staff said upfront that they will leave if andrew acts like he did. he acted so nontheless. it's his fault.
20:05:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> oh I read you further, sry
20:05:20 <esowiki> <myname> also, afaik _all_ the staff left
20:05:47 <esowiki> <Corbin> Also also, the staff were volunteers, not full-time employees.
20:06:14 <esowiki> <nakilon> "they will leave if andrew acts like" he acted AFTER that? that makes no sense
20:06:18 <esowiki> <Corbin> nakilon: But seriously, why don't you just...stop caring so much about it?
20:06:30 <esowiki> <riv> even if they claim there was a script error, it still happened
20:06:37 <esowiki> <myname> nakilon: you do know what "upfront" means?
20:06:45 <esowiki> <riv> it's not correct to say that it didn't happen just because they apologized for it afterwards
20:07:22 <esowiki> <nakilon> it was a malfunction of a network caused by their act of leaving and leaving it falling apart
20:07:24 <esowiki> <myname> riv: a script "error" they didn't test well enough, server switches to ircds they didn't test well enough ...
20:07:35 <esowiki> <Corbin> pikhq: FWIW I think that noting that this conversation is unproductive is a positive contribution.
20:07:56 <esowiki> <myname> it was a a malfunction that all staffers told him upfront, yet he chose to go that path
20:08:05 <esowiki> <sknebel> can you please have this discussion in some off-topic channel and not here?
20:11:17 <esowiki> <fizzie> int-e: I don't know, maybe my reconnects (after the SASL failures) tripped a filter of some sort, I'm getting a flat disconnect for "openssl s_client -connect ..." as well on the machine I run IRC on, but not at home. Maybe that's a sign to just give it up.
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20:27:55 <esowiki> <riv> new metroid game looks cool
20:30:10 <esowiki> <fizzie> Why did I just get this idea that there was a game where you had like a peripheral you programmed in Befunge? A puzzle game, or maybe an adventure one... Did I just have a weird dream or something?
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20:31:36 <esowiki> <imode> I did my waiting. 20 years of it.
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20:33:00 <esowiki> <fizzie> Not SpaceChem, this was like a smartwatch or something that you wrote little programs for, and it wasn't the main game mechanic, just a little side thing.
20:33:17 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think it probably doesn't exist and I just made it up.
20:33:53 <esowiki> <myname> i so wish there were interesting smartwatch games
20:34:20 <esowiki> <nakilon> "programming peripheral" only associate with Shenzhen for me
20:34:45 <esowiki> <imode> fizzie: that sounds like a neat idea for something like cogmind.
20:34:48 <esowiki> <riv> there is a befunge like programming game on steam, but its not liek what you're describing
20:35:04 <esowiki> <nakilon> is there a web server extension for befunge? you could make a website in befunge about ebfunge
20:35:47 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Programming_games are all games where the programming is the main "gameplay" element, not games of other genres with a programming aspect to them.
20:36:12 <esowiki> <fizzie> I think there was an Apache module for Befunge?
20:37:25 <esowiki> <riv> I like the systems in modded minecraft
20:37:34 <esowiki> <fizzie> Not having much luck on the Googles though, so maybe I'm mixing it up with the Brainfuck one.
20:37:36 <esowiki> <riv> you have 3 types of tubes: power, items, fluids
20:37:40 <esowiki> <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/programminggames/
20:37:41 <esowiki> <riv> and blocks have 6 sides
20:37:49 <esowiki> <riv> you can do a lot with that
20:38:23 <esowiki> <fizzie> Yeah, http://modbf.sourceforge.net/ is a thing but mod_bef doesn't seem to be.
20:38:31 <esowiki> <imode> does LambdaMOO count as a programming game?
20:41:06 <esowiki> <Taneb> fizzie: that game does sound familiar for some reason
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20:45:34 <esowiki> <imode> now _that's_ some lore I can ge behind.
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20:48:22 <esowiki> <fizzie> Taneb: I think I'm maybe mixing a little of Fallout's Pip-Boy into this thing, but I think that's not programmable.
20:51:09 <esowiki> <oerjan> Witch of Plagiation
20:54:52 <esowiki> <fizzie> Taneb: Other games I might have been thinking of are Hack 'n' Slash, and Else Heart.Break().
20:59:22 <esowiki> <sknebel> what is LambdaMOO?
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21:11:15 <esowiki> <riv> you can program the behavior of objects inside the moo?
21:17:51 <esowiki> <zzo38> There is also ifMUD, which doesn't have object prototypes though. You can though set permission (although all or nothing; you can't set per group or per field or whatever) for reading, teleporting, and some others
21:17:57 <esowiki> <riv> Are peoplee making interesting things in it
21:18:19 <esowiki> <riv> can you put two objects together and they pass data between each other
21:19:01 <esowiki> <fizzie> Heh, I've sort of always assumed (for no particular reason) the "lambda" in the name has some relationship to lambda calculus, but I guess it doesn't.
21:20:15 <esowiki> <riv> i wonder how it implements programming languages
21:20:28 <esowiki> <riv> > It is the oldest MOO today
21:20:30 <esowiki> <lambdabot> • Data constructor not in scope:
21:20:30 <esowiki> <lambdabot> It :: t0 -> t1 -> t2 -> t3 -> t4 -> t
21:20:47 <esowiki> <zzo38> I am #20071 on ifMUD
21:20:54 <esowiki> <riv> what does that mean?
21:20:56 <esowiki> <myname> i heard hellmoo is fun
21:21:27 <esowiki> <riv> is it better to use telnet or a mud client?
21:21:56 <esowiki> <zzo38> You could use either
21:22:18 <esowiki> <riv> telnet lambda.moo.mud.org 8888
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21:29:02 <esowiki> <riv> how do I use an item that I have?
21:29:31 <esowiki> <riv> did you break lambdamoo using #0
21:31:53 <esowiki> <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Rape_in_Cyberspace Mr. Bungle, who leveraged a "voodoo doll" subprogram that allowed him to make actions that were falsely attributed to other characters in the virtual community
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21:34:10 <esowiki> <riv> I want to know more about that
21:34:25 <esowiki> <riv> i've stopped playing lambdamoo https://bpa.st/GWBQ
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21:57:27 <esowiki> <salpynx> There's a book 'My Tiny Life.' about the LambdaMOO incident, and the MOO community generally. It's good from memory. (I have a copy somewhere)
21:57:43 <esowiki> <nakilon> this log looks like ai dungeon
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22:13:06 <esowiki> <salpynx> The book is broader in scope than that one incident and article. I recommend it to anyone interested in early online networked communities and crossovers to RL. It covers positive and negative aspects, and is notable as an early document of that sort of community. And LambdaMOO was a neat thing.
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23:36:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84566&oldid=84560 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) /* Examples: */ Xats,
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02:41:05 <esowiki> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84567&oldid=84451 * Plasmath * (+5744) Added some simple math operations.
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04:36:36 <esowiki> <keegan> didn't find any edible mushrooms
04:36:40 <esowiki> <keegan> but I had a great time
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04:36:53 <esowiki> <keegan> and we saw bears!!
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04:37:12 <esowiki> <keegan> mama and two cubs
04:37:20 <esowiki> <keegan> drove by them on the way in
04:37:39 <esowiki> <keegan> cubs immediately climbed trees and they all stared at us until we moved on
04:38:23 <esowiki> <keegan> also a deer walked right through camp, i didn't see it as I was half asleep but I heard what in retrospect must have been it, and found a pile of fresh deer poop right by my tent
04:40:46 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84568&oldid=80569 * Salpynx * (+1108) update some links so I can find things easier
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04:44:59 <esowiki> <pikhq> keegan: wow! sounds like a lovely trip :)
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07:58:01 <esowiki> [[Lambda: the Gathering]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84569&oldid=39185 * B jonas * (+31)