00:00:29 <nakilon> the whole topic of hate is just inappropriate in Russian mass media
00:03:07 -!- moon has quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)).
00:03:44 <nakilon> for eaxmple, I read the russophobia all over the reddit every day and sometimes in irc, but I can't remember any thread of hate about US in Russian most popular IT website for example -- it just makes no sense, we aren't interested in hate and don't spread it
00:03:55 -!- moon has joined.
00:05:38 <nakilon> the was one stand up comic yet from soviet time, he died few years ago who was joking on americans, building his career on a funny storry teller about how "they are stupid and we are smart" -- just one single man on media and he already died
00:06:56 <imode> pretty sure the russophobia is due to the election stuff and the troll farms.
00:07:29 <imode> though that can enhance the already racist tendencies of individuals.
00:08:57 <nakilon> was funny to see those Biden votes graphs though
00:09:21 <nakilon> btw, Norway and... imode where are you from?
00:09:47 * oerjan would be surprised if imode isn't american
00:10:19 <nakilon> are your public service businesses have to have a special book where clients can write down all they think about the service and that book is regularly cheked by the government services?
00:10:21 <imode> hungarian in spirit, american in birth.
00:10:44 <imode> or I guess maybe nordic in spirit, according to how my buddies in denmark describe my views. :P
00:10:50 <nakilon> this thing https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9
00:11:07 <imode> we have a couple of things like that.
00:11:14 <nakilon> several Americans on reddit said there is no such thing in US
00:11:40 <nakilon> and I don't see an English page on Wikipedia
00:11:40 <imode> the better business bureau.
00:12:29 <imode> I wouldn't put my faith in the russian government. I'm struggling to recover my lack of faith in the US government.
00:12:54 <imode> so a complaint book is a double edged sword.
00:13:15 <nakilon> the interesting fact is that it appeared thanks to Stalin -- his politics were about giving the citizens a right to tell about problems out loud, that was among the things why people (not those who were sent to gulag for being criminals) loved him and what he built
00:14:14 <imode> I'm sure he was a great guy apart from the millions he killed.
00:14:50 <nakilon> this book works -- you come to a store, they do some service badly, you write it to a book and within weeks you get a response on the next page of the book and the business gets fined
00:15:11 -!- int-e has left (what the fuck).
00:15:13 <imode> yeah, because customers can always be trusted.
00:15:34 <imode> totally want the potential to be fined to be in the hands of customers.
00:15:51 <imode> I'm sure the government which now has a de-facto dictator checks its facts all the time.
00:16:20 <nakilon> if you write a bullshit, they respond "quit your bullshit"
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00:17:29 <nakilon> you can copypaste hate propaganda any number of times you want -- it won't make it truth
00:17:45 <imode> it certainly wasn't copypasting.
00:17:48 <nakilon> because you have nothing to prove the bullshit with
00:18:07 <imode> calling anything that you disagree with propaganda is an interesting tactic.
00:18:29 <nakilon> this is now a blatant lie about me
00:18:43 <nakilon> because there was no "calling anything that you disagree with propaganda" by me
00:18:55 <imode> I actually have a question, are you russian?
00:19:11 <imode> this makes a lot of sense.
00:19:22 <imode> just your demeanor.
00:19:45 <nakilon> so now you are judging me by nationality, nice
00:20:16 <imode> nice jump. was really just claiming that you'd defend your national pride, as anybody would, but you do you dude.
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00:22:02 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86287&oldid=85930 * Makonede * (+47)
00:23:54 <nakilon> I am Russian, I am not nazi or racist, I was born in the most multinational country in the world and the more I speak to foreigners the more I see how they operate with only rumours, and are absolutely unable to differentiate the fact from propaganda, I'm tired of it
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00:24:12 <oerjan> ok now that you know you're russian and american and that this perfectly explains why you cannot get along, can you please never talk to each other again twh and i'm sorry for participating.
00:24:34 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86288&oldid=86287 * Makonede * (+30)
00:25:01 <oerjan> (that's irony btw there are other russians and americans in this channel who get along just fine)
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00:25:23 <imode> perhaps we should label things like this as off-topic.
00:25:41 <nakilon> I get along just fine with americans, unless they are some imperialists and russophobes
00:25:41 <imode> to prevent 1. flooding the channel and 2. blocking further discourse.
00:25:42 <oerjan> perhaps. int-e, fizzie?
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00:26:04 <imode> though I will say that uh, I wasn't the one that started talking about it.
00:26:38 <oerjan> imode: that's true, but my "uh oh" when you started talking was because i pretty confidentally saw what was coming
00:26:57 <imode> just try to deal with the facts at hand, man.
00:27:05 <oerjan> you're a bit like nemeses
00:27:08 <nakilon> and I know there are some people here with nicknames I don't remember well who just love to personally attack and lie on me exactly how I was lied just a page above
00:27:21 <imode> if I have a nemesis it's probably bezos.
00:28:23 <imode> nakilon: here's the thing, and I'm speaking to you in a genuine manner, despite the lack of intonation or intent in text: do not develop a victim complex.
00:28:39 <imode> it's frankly annoying and seeing as this is "the internet", your reputation is not at stake.
00:28:51 <imode> carry yourself as if nobody else matters.
00:29:19 <imode> you'll feel a lot happier and won't have to call people out or say you're being attacked.
00:29:42 <nakilon> I just try to make things visible that others are hidhing about themselves
00:30:04 <imode> this is either a cultural disconnect or malice and I'm looking to believe it's the former.
00:30:20 <imode> people don't need things "brought out of them", and you're too quick to jump the gun on people.
00:30:42 <imode> it's perceived as attacks, and you'll get hostility.
00:31:44 <nakilon> you lied about be and then instead of keeping the dialog constructive started saying that all I say is just biased just because I'm Russian
00:32:10 <imode> see, I see 'lie' pop up a lot. a lie is applicable only when you know the truth but choose to conceal it.
00:32:17 <int-e> So... two things. Nakilon should stop bringing up contested political topics. #esolangs is not the right place for this. imode, maybe ignore nakilon instead of goading them on. Yes, nakilon exhibits strong trollish tendencies, but they're tolerable if noone bites.
00:32:25 <imode> as in, "you are willingly lying".
00:32:36 <imode> pretty sure I've never seen someone accidentally lie.
00:32:50 <imode> so when you think people are being uncharitable towards you, maybe perceive it as a misconception. not a lie.
00:33:14 <imode> because when you tell me "you're lying about me", that just makes me appear as if I'm a bad party, vs. someone you either disagree with or someone who doesn't understand your position fully.
00:33:40 <int-e> Now, can we stop this peacefully or do we need a proper timeout?
00:34:16 <imode> feel free to timeout, idgaf. I see this as a cultural misunderstanding rather than trolling.
00:34:17 <nakilon> and I didn't bring the politics, I didn't say that some country does something bad or omeone's leaders are bad or anything, it was brought in by others who just were triggered by some words on their trigger list
00:34:30 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o int-e.
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00:35:38 <int-e> timeout it is. (cf. (cf. https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-07-14.html#lwc))
00:35:51 <imode> oh yay we have a logging endpoint.
00:36:51 <imode> wow I didn't see that context. no comment.
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00:45:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CosmicMan08 * New user account
00:50:52 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86289 * Xorol * (+1301) Created the page
00:55:42 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86290&oldid=86289 * Xorol * (+439) Added some example programs
00:59:42 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86291&oldid=86290 * Xorol * (+9) Added caption text to the instruction table
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01:03:08 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86292&oldid=86291 * Xorol * (+96) Added a link to the interpreter
01:04:00 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86293&oldid=86292 * Xorol * (+1)
01:06:07 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86294&oldid=86293 * Xorol * (+4)
01:08:20 <nakilon> it was not me who brought it in
01:08:55 <nakilon> you linked the wrong log line
01:13:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86295&oldid=86283 * Xorol * (+14) Added a link to numbers
01:15:30 <esolangs> [[User:Xorol]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86296 * Xorol * (+25) Created page with "Hi! I created [[Numbers]]"
01:26:02 <zzo38> How do you think that FFI should be made working in PostScript?
01:26:19 <imode> are there existing examples of FFIs with postscript?
01:26:36 <imode> and I guess, is this postscript calling out to C or another language calling postscript.
01:28:21 <zzo38> Yes, I mean calling C codes from PostScript codes.
01:28:39 <zzo38> I don't know if there are any existing examples of FFIs with PostScript, though.
01:29:29 <zzo38> (There is a printobject command which writes a PostScript object to stdout which can be useful for some purposes, but that is for dealing with an external program, not a dynamic library within the same program.)
01:29:35 <imode> mm. kinda hard to say, you need a way to set up calling conventions..
01:35:11 <zzo38> Yes, although it could be needing a C code to wrap calls to libraries that are not meant for this purpose, to convert values, etc
01:43:25 <imode> yeah, that's difficult. I think most forths get around this by exposing I/O ports.
01:43:28 <imode> or something similar.
01:43:44 <imode> well, I know of _one_ forth that does that... not most, most just drop to assembly and do the hard work.
01:44:09 <imode> it comes down to "do you want your language to be able to speak C" or "do you want to wall your language off and try to plan for the common cases".
01:47:36 <zzo38> Since it isn't a compiled programming language, I would think it probably need not "speak C" directly; it could use a plugin interface. In addition to defining new operators and reading/writing PostScript memory directory, it may also be wanted for a plugin to install a printer driver too, in case you are doing graphics.
01:47:50 <zzo38> (Such a "printer driver" need not necessarily be for a printer; it might also be a screen or file.)
01:48:12 <imode> yeah, you'll need to hot plug stuff in and out of the interpreter and have the calling code support it.
01:49:25 <imode> that isn't actually a bad idea, though.
01:49:51 <imode> what's the difference between that and having the capability to "speak C" regularly. you can issue an interpreter call that says "load this dynamic library".
01:50:07 <imode> you'll just need some shim code for the dynamic library to make it speak your language.
01:50:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86297&oldid=86280 * CosmicMan08 * (+362) Introduced_yourself&action=edit
01:51:26 <zzo38> Yes, a operator to load a dynamic library is a good idea I think. (It would be disabled in safe mode of course, although libraries that have already been loaded before switching to safe mode can remain loaded.)
01:51:40 <esolangs> [[Wariolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86298 * CosmicMan08 * (+1609) Created page with "WarioLang is an esolang inspired by the AI system of Warioware D.I.Y, it is created by discord user CosmicMan08#1975. == INSTRUCTIONS == Set [Var] to [Data] ---- Sets a vari..."
01:51:53 <imode> you can build a shim generator as well if you know the types involved.
01:53:47 <esolangs> [[Wariolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86299&oldid=86298 * CosmicMan08 * (+9)
01:55:57 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose you can; I think there are programs to do such thing for some programming languages already, it can be added other one too
02:08:32 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86300&oldid=86294 * Xorol * (+8)
02:08:54 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86301&oldid=86300 * Xorol * (+0)
02:09:57 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86302&oldid=86259 * KakkoiiChris * (-12)
02:11:10 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86303&oldid=86229 * Xorol * (+92) Added an implementation in [[Numbers]]
02:11:51 <esolangs> [[Wariolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86304&oldid=86299 * CosmicMan08 * (+1)
02:12:10 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86305&oldid=86303 * Xorol * (-49) /* Numbers */
02:21:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Graue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86306&oldid=59021 * Xorol * (+351)
02:21:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Xorol]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86307 * Xorol * (+0) Created blank page
02:25:48 <zzo38> I had other ideas about improving PostScript too, such as a built-in #! command, a few new font types, a few new resource categories, alpha transparency, some things taken from Ghostscript and from NeWS, etc
02:29:51 <zzo38> I think Adobe said they don't want to make level 4 PostScript
02:43:45 <zzo38> Was it some years ago on the esoteric programming IRC that someone mentioned they saw someone abbreviated Thursday as the Greek Theta?
03:20:19 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86308&oldid=85695 * PolySaken * (+16) /* Computational Class */
03:22:45 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86309&oldid=86302 * KakkoiiChris * (-52)
03:23:04 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86310&oldid=86301 * Xorol * (+32)
03:33:58 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86311&oldid=86310 * Xorol * (+262) Added an example for the digital root calculator
03:34:22 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86312&oldid=86311 * Xorol * (+1) /* =Digital root calculator */
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07:09:10 <riv> nativ lang has a vid on modern use of mayan glyphs
07:19:58 <esolangs> [[Boxes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86313&oldid=86247 * Dominicentek * (+496) Added more instructions
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10:00:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86314&oldid=86240 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+140) /* External Resources */
10:01:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86315&oldid=86314 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+0) /* External Resources */
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10:40:18 <wib_jonas> since what version did Windows preserve the case of the current drive, as opposed to the other components of filenames in the working directory?
10:40:35 <wib_jonas> Was that all the way back to 95 OSR2? I sort of doubt that
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11:27:56 <esolangs> [[INF)xO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86316&oldid=86256 * AmNow * (+391) added ver and indexing
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12:43:07 <esolangs> [[INF)xO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86317&oldid=86316 * AmNow * (-2)
12:54:41 <esolangs> [[INF)xO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86318&oldid=86317 * AmNow * (-17) spec update
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13:32:49 <esolangs> [[Boxes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86319&oldid=86313 * Dominicentek * (+23) Added interpreter
13:38:05 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86320&oldid=86312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) /* Digital root calculator */ Categories
13:41:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86321&oldid=86315 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+101) Summary) (Created by ~~~~
13:44:23 <esolangs> [[Boxes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86322&oldid=86319 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Interpreter */ Cat
13:48:25 <esolangs> [[Wariolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86323&oldid=86304 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+162) Cats, fmt
13:51:14 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86324&oldid=86212 * AmNow * (-1)
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14:24:25 <esolangs> [[Something]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86325&oldid=86144 * PixelatedStarfish * (-9) /* Proof of Turing completeness */
14:24:46 <esolangs> [[Something]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86326&oldid=86325 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9) /* Proof of Turing completeness */
14:35:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86327&oldid=86321 * AmNow * (+52) why
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14:52:11 <esolangs> [[Swapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86328&oldid=86268 * Rdococ * (+82)
15:27:47 <esolangs> [[Swapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86329&oldid=86328 * Rdococ * (-153) minor improvements
15:28:23 <esolangs> [[Swapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86330&oldid=86329 * Rdococ * (+14) made lowercase
15:29:42 <esolangs> [[Swapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86331&oldid=86330 * Rdococ * (+11) /* Computational class */
15:30:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Rdococ * moved [[Flower]] to [[Flower (Archived)]]
15:33:32 <esolangs> [[Flower (Archived)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86334&oldid=86332 * Rdococ * (-173)
15:34:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Rdococ * moved [[Algebra]] to [[Algebra (Archived)]]
15:34:11 <esolangs> [[Algebra (Archived)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86337&oldid=86335 * Rdococ * (-19)
15:44:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86338&oldid=86327 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+64) !
15:45:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86339&oldid=86338 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) !
15:45:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86340&oldid=86339 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-26) .
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19:05:23 <esolangs> [[Swapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86341&oldid=86331 * Rdococ * (-56) /* Differences from brainfuck */
19:05:58 <esolangs> [[Swapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86342&oldid=86341 * Rdococ * (-10) /* Computational class */
19:08:06 <riv> whats new?
19:20:47 <zzo38> New in what, specifically? (If you are looking for IRC logs or esolang wiki, then you can easily find that)
19:28:04 <riv> just anything cool that was learned
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19:46:23 <esolangs> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86343&oldid=83957 * Dreamvoyager * (-1) /* Print all even numbers up to 10^k-1. */
19:54:48 <zzo38> I made a new version of the PSTOKEN extension for SQLite, which is used for making PostScript tokens output from SQL queries.
20:00:14 <riv> https://sqlite.org/forum/info/b1bd78c5e5c8434e I found this when searching for PSTOKEN
20:01:04 <riv> interesting
20:01:09 <riv> PSTOKEN has { and }
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20:02:53 <zzo38> Yes, it uses {} to make the entire array as a single token.
20:06:23 <zzo38> Also, I have written a JSON parser in PostScript too, although generating PostScript format is more useful, to avoid having to parse JSON or whatever. As the comment there says, it will be useful for making pie charts and whatever other graphics you might want.
20:06:50 <zzo38> That link is the old version though.
20:07:02 <zzo38> The new version is: https://sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/0e2bc16832
20:07:59 <riv> cool idea!
20:12:37 <zzo38> Do you use SQL and/or PostScript at all?
20:13:17 <riv> not at the moment but i have in the past
20:14:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TJC games * New user account
20:15:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86344&oldid=86297 * TJC games * (+185) /* Introductions */
20:17:00 <esolangs> [[User:TJC games]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86345 * TJC games * (+73) Created page with "Hello! I am TJC games. I play games, do stuff and beep beep like a sheep."
20:19:56 <esolangs> [[Gdelang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86346 * TJC games * (+185) Created page with "Gdelang is an esolang created by TJC games. It's based off of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del_numbering godel numbering], with slight connections to Brainfuck|Br..."
20:23:50 <esolangs> [[Table]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86347&oldid=43284 * Rdococ * (-633)
20:29:43 <esolangs> [[Gdelang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86348&oldid=86346 * TJC games * (+742)
20:29:57 <esolangs> [[Gdelang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86349&oldid=86348 * TJC games * (-20) /* Interpretations */
20:32:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86350&oldid=86295 * TJC games * (+16) Godelang
20:40:49 <esolangs> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86351&oldid=86279 * Digital Hunter * (-2) /* Quine */ a shorter one
20:53:53 <int-e> . o O ( let x = corn in unix )
20:55:08 <fizzie> Uniikki unikorni olikin korni koni.
21:20:29 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeSng_Us9dg I like this youtube series
21:20:50 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/user/NativLang/videos and recently this
21:25:10 <nakilon> I realised that the way people are taught about the Earth rotating around Sun is pretty much wrong and useless, and doesn't help to understand how the sun moves over the sky
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21:25:59 <nakilon> I also checked several pages of google and yandex image search results and found nothing close to what I would like people to see to learn it, so I drew it myself
21:27:01 <riv> I learned about analemma recently
21:29:06 <nakilon> people are not taught that while South and North are points on the horizon the East and West are not, and people realise it only after they spent years of their lives, preferably living in the same place to observe the cycle
21:29:36 <riv> north is a point on the horizon?
21:29:50 <nakilon> ; also people are told that the Earth axis has an angle of 23.5 degrees but how to use this knowledge? where is the polar day and night? why they exist? it's not really explained
21:30:42 <nakilon> riv the point that you can get my drawing a line down from the star that is not rotating during the night
21:31:11 <riv> I did a OU course on astronomy
21:31:18 <riv> it was relaly good
21:31:45 <nakilon> we had 1 year of astronomy in school, but at least in my school, the teacher sucked
21:32:33 <esolangs> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86352&oldid=86351 * Digital Hunter * (+1403) /* ROT13 cipher */ a slightly more legit one
21:32:50 <esolangs> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86353&oldid=86352 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* ROT13 cipher */
21:33:20 <riv> we have the equatorial coordinate system
21:33:36 <nakilon> the key to understanding is that you should not imagine the Earth rotating around the Sun, because it has no practical use and it's hard to derive the rest of the things unless you had a course of descriptive geometry that is taught only to engineers basically
21:33:58 <riv> the math of this stuff is highly involved
21:34:09 <riv> the earth is basically a massive gyroscope
21:34:14 <nakilon> my idea is to imagine that the Sun is running in spiral over the sphere
21:34:24 <riv> so it not only orbits and spins but precesses
21:34:25 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/Eec618c.png
21:35:07 <riv> I think that this was originally noted by Newton
21:35:43 <nakilon> it's trivial and important to know that the earth is kind of rotating around the sun, not the opposite but it's only practical when you launch the satellites and it's not the all the truth anyway, only an approximation, but the problem is that this imagining is not useful on the earth
21:36:07 <riv> it's kind of a pointless distinction
21:36:18 <riv> you have two bodies in space with gravity influencing each other
21:36:22 <riv> the sun is much more massive, so it moves less
21:36:29 <riv> but it is not "fixed"
21:36:45 <riv> if you want to set up a coordinate system, you can use either the earth or the sun as an origin
21:36:56 <riv> not something to behead people over
21:37:23 <riv> or whatever happened back then
21:37:33 <nakilon> the thing is how the hell kid is supposed to understand what path the sun is running over the sky when you say it's a ball rotating around another ball that with an angle
21:38:34 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analemma#/media/File:Analemma_fishburn.tif
21:38:37 <riv> check out this analemma image
21:38:52 <riv> i think that is super cool, but also could be used to help explain it
21:40:22 <nakilon> oh and btw, the sun path is a key to understanding to how the sun clocks work
21:40:38 <nakilon> ask random person how to make it -- they'll have no clue
21:40:53 <riv> > Analemmas (as they are known today) have been used in conjunction with sundials since the 18th century to convert between apparent and mean solar time
21:40:55 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:52: error: parse error on input ‘in’
21:41:14 <riv> im not sure what this means, but it sounds relevant
21:41:36 <riv> "This can be interpreted as how "fast" or "slow" the Sun (or an analemmatic sundial) is compared to clock time."
21:42:21 <nakilon> understanding that sun is goins in spirals over the sphere and assuming it's shifting the cycles in Sin function way it becomes trivial to calculate the day length
21:42:40 <riv> that's a good intuition to have
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21:43:01 <riv> i read more details about leap seconds
21:43:21 <riv> so far, they have only every added seconds - never removed them
21:43:25 <riv> but they would if needed
21:43:31 <riv> and they can not predict leap seconds
21:43:50 <riv> they just measure when they are required
21:44:05 <riv> some of the the things that cause the time drift are not known
21:44:20 <riv> and othres are just too chaotic to predict, can only be measured
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21:48:14 <nakilon> riv https://www.reddit.com/r/ExposurePorn/comments/106czv/sunrise_analemma_17_individual_images_taken_at/
21:48:27 <nakilon> this subredit has such images sometimes
21:57:22 <zzo38> I know some things about astronomy. I had once plotted the analemma using Astrolog (using its capability to avoid clearing the screen between frames)
21:59:40 <riv> ah that's cool!
22:00:04 <riv> I used stellarium
22:00:25 <riv> https://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm wow
22:02:10 <sknebel> "created using Microsoft FrontPage, page last updated April 11, 2021." :D
22:03:37 <fizzie> Ooh, a counter and all.
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22:05:07 <kee> Does anyone remember what that tiny x86-specific language was called?
22:05:57 <kee> All the instructions are ASCII letters, and the interpeter just jumps into overlapping x86 instructions.
22:06:19 <nakilon> when I was a child I remember counting hundreds of thousands of stars in the most clear nights; recently I found a local astronomer with youtube channel and on stream I asked him if I'll ever be able to see this amount again like back then, or is sky polluted already with light, satellites, and my eyesight is old
22:06:58 <riv> https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/abc/paper.pdf kee?
22:07:16 <riv> nakilon, yeah... :(
22:07:28 <nakilon> and he said "ahaha, wtf, you could not see it, it's 6000 stars" -- you know why? just because he has read it in our 1980s astronomy school book and didn't really try to count on his own
22:07:28 <riv> i always want to go to a remote place to see the stars well, I saw the milky way once, it wa good
22:07:45 <nakilon> that was a bit... disappointing
22:08:48 <nakilon> meanwhile wikipedia says, I just checked: "Depending on local sky cloud cover, pollution, humidity, and light pollution levels, the stars visible to the unaided naked eye appear as hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands...."
22:09:17 <nakilon> so idk why he just quotes the old book
22:09:51 <nakilon> oh I didn't see milky way for years
22:10:27 <kee> riv: It's not ABC. I'm thinking of an interpreter tens of bytes long, not a C compiler.
22:11:46 <riv> sounds interesting
22:12:27 <kee> Yeah. But because it's less than 100 bytes, I can't search for it.
22:19:37 <fizzie> The MiniMAX interpreter is that small, but it doesn't otherwise resemble what you said too much. https://esolangs.org/wiki/MiniMAX
22:23:54 <fizzie> Though clicking a few links forward from there, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Golf lists a few of the shortest implementations, and both MinISCule and Barely sound to be a bit in that direction.
22:24:23 <b_jonas> you certainly can see a lot of stars, but you have to go to somewhere that's far from cities for it, and then look at night when the weather is suitable. I don't like going to places that are far from cities, so I'd rather leave that sort of thing to other people and automated telescopes.
22:25:07 <b_jonas> Here if I go to one of the darker places within the city, I can see tens of stars on a clear night.
22:25:22 <kee> fizzie: I was thinking of Barely, I think. Thanks.
22:27:53 <fizzie> We went out of the city a while ago, and I was hoping to see some stars, but since it was the middle of summer as well, it never really got *that* dark. It's not as bad as back home (or further up north), but even here at summertime it never dips below astronomical twilight to true night.
22:31:30 <fizzie> Better than in London, though. Here's how it looked like to the phone: https://zem.fi/tmp/stars.jpg
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22:52:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's a lot of stars
22:53:41 <fizzie> The phone exaggerates a little, I think. It takes 4 minutes to collect all those stars, for example.
22:56:52 <b_jonas> 4 minutes? and you have a rotating tripod thingy for that?
22:56:55 <fizzie> I remember a much more impressive sky from back when I was pretty young, and got off a bus to visit a friend in the countryside in the middle of the winter, but I can't be sure if it *was* actually substantially better, or if it's just one of these things where your mind makes stuff up.
22:57:01 <fizzie> No, it's done in software.
22:57:20 <fizzie> AIUI, it takes repeated 15-second exposures and then merges them together to account for the motion.
22:57:35 <b_jonas> well it could impress you more even if it's the same visuals
22:57:51 <fizzie> https://ai.googleblog.com/2019/11/astrophotography-with-night-sight-on.html has a bit of the detail.
22:59:43 <b_jonas> I don't generally bother with trying to photograph a starry sky, because that's one of those things that other people can and will photograph better, and photos of it are available on the internet easily, unlike some other targets that I photograph where I can't just get photographs made by others for various reasons
22:59:55 <fizzie> They had just added an extra feature where it also makes a timelapse video clip of the whole thing (so you get the motion of the stars visible too), but AFAICT you can't extend it to more than the 4 minutes, so it's just a one-second clip, which is a bit of a shame.
23:00:11 <b_jonas> as in, the starry sky is basically the same viewed from anywhere, so why bother?
23:00:28 <fizzie> Yeah, this was mostly an excuse to use the feature, after having read about it.
23:00:34 <b_jonas> (yes, I know some parts are only visible from the south, but still)
23:01:04 <fizzie> Also, you can do a photo that is part something you don't see everywhere else, and part the starry sky.
23:01:48 <b_jonas> I should try to do timelapses of clouds some day though
23:01:59 <b_jonas> though that's also something you can download anywhere
23:02:25 <kee> fizzie: You have to do compositing (a bit more sophisticated than HDR) to get that.
23:02:47 <fizzie> No, you don't, it's all part of the astrophotography feature.
23:03:00 <fizzie> I mean, someone has to, I guess.
23:03:08 <kee> Wow, that's neat.
23:03:13 <fizzie> For example, here's the building we stayed at: https://zem.fi/tmp/stars2.jpg
23:03:54 <b_jonas> not bad. in what country is that? is it Finland?
23:04:35 <fizzie> Here's one with a bit more of the house: https://zem.fi/tmp/stars3.jpg
23:04:44 <fizzie> Nah, it was a place here in the UK.
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23:56:33 <esolangs> [[INF)xO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86354&oldid=86318 * AmNow * (+19) computational class fix