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00:01:13 <b_jonas> I guess the alternative way is to generate all reasonable graph solutions with not many more non-belt non-tunnel elements than necessary, unconstrained of the geometry, and then try to use a SAT solver to lay them out in the available space using belts and tunnels connecting the other buildings required
00:01:34 <int-e> So that's the kind of thing I wanted acyclicity for to avoid.
00:02:05 <b_jonas> or maybe get a printed circuit board design program to do the layout
00:02:44 <b_jonas> yes, you have a point about that cycle
00:05:08 <int-e> But acyclicity plus that static annotation should be enough to get somewhere... so it's not as nasty as encoding Turing machine computations.
00:06:36 <int-e> (Acyclicity of a graph can be encoded by assigning a rank to each vertex, and demand that the rank decreases along each edge. It's *relatively* SAT solver friendly.)
00:08:33 <b_jonas> yes, but the hard part is that you do want to allow the kind of solution like in https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-red-white-star-solution.png , or a simple one where you cut a half-shape to two quarter-shape, rotate one of them, then join them with a stacker, because these will often be required for a stable solution
00:09:09 <b_jonas> so you can't just ban every merger where the inputs share a source
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00:09:11 <int-e> sure but that's not a (directed) cycle
00:09:21 <b_jonas> yes, I know
00:09:34 <b_jonas> it's just that you may want to distinguish that from lockups similar to that
00:09:47 <int-e> you can reasonably keep track of flows I think
00:11:06 <int-e> Though of course there are puzzles out there that do lock up eventually, so such solutions would be missed.
00:11:41 <b_jonas> I still think the best chance could be to just have the SAT solvers do the geometry, and implement a mostly brute-force preprocessing that finds all the solution graphs with not too many processing buildings, in which case you can do a better lockup check without having to encode it to a SAT solver
00:11:55 <int-e> (The way the puzzle verification works is that it clears all items, and then runs the level for up to a minute to see whether the win condition is satisfied. Which is still the case if you deliver 10 or so items quickly enough.)
00:12:38 <b_jonas> part of the problem is that the lockup can depend on geometry
00:13:21 <b_jonas> so yeah, it's not as simple as I thought
00:14:00 <int-e> There are other nasty effects too... like if you have a cutter, feed one output directly to a stacker, and the other output takes a walk around the level... that will severely limit the throughput.
00:14:39 <int-e> (the second output is supposed to reach the same stacker eventually)
00:15:05 <int-e> (and the throughput is limited because that belt will be mostly empty unless you reset the involved buildings often enough)
00:15:29 <int-e> I better go and sleep :)
00:36:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:Scratch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=127988&oldid=114371 * XKCD Wrong Times Table * (+156)
00:40:34 <esolangs> [[Nopstacle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=127989&oldid=127273 * Ais523 * (+11) /* Computational class */ a more efficient simple translation the older one was correct, but this one takes the IP along a shorter path and is probably a bit easier to understand
01:48:46 <esolangs> [[Indifferent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=127990&oldid=127417 * Scudmaster11 * (+54)
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03:34:37 <esolangs> [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=127991&oldid=126208 * BoundedBeans * (+32) Clarified wording in Branching section
04:03:21 <esolangs> [[Main page]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=127992 * EvyLah * (+23) Redirected page to [[Main Page]]
04:08:00 <esolangs> [[Qwhy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=127993 * BoundedBeans * (+3304) Created page with "Qwhy is a fungeoid esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]] that aims to be different than other fungeoids, while also being weird. ==Playfield== The default playfield is laid out as in Funge-98, but it doesn't expand infinitely. The number of lines specified in the program
04:08:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=127994&oldid=127902 * BoundedBeans * (+11)
04:08:49 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=127995&oldid=127839 * BoundedBeans * (+10)
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07:53:25 <esolangs> [[Xenon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=127996&oldid=127982 * RhubarbJayde * (+41) /* Hello World! */
08:05:52 <esolangs> [[FALSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=127997&oldid=127543 * Palaiologos * (+103)
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08:16:11 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=127998&oldid=127877 * Ractangle * (+116)
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08:21:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuckconsole74]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=127999 * Ractangle * (+129) Created page with "i love it ~~~~"
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08:45:03 <esolangs> [[Xenon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128000&oldid=127996 * RhubarbJayde * (+1325)
08:47:26 <esolangs> [[Xenon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128001&oldid=128000 * RhubarbJayde * (+8)
08:48:35 <esolangs> [[Xenon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128002&oldid=128001 * RhubarbJayde * (-8)
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11:31:22 <wib_jonas> Is there a video game series where the first game is 3D but a sequel is 2D, and what's the best example for this? I'd like something where the games feel related, not eg. a character from a 3D franchise appearing in a Smash game. So a transition of something like Metroid Fusion vs Metroid Dread, or Super Mario 64 vs New Super Mario Bros Wii could
11:31:22 <wib_jonas> count, except both Metroid and Mario clearly started with 2D games. I feel that something like this must exist because of how so many games were forced to have 3D elements on the Nintendo 64 for marketing reasons even when it made the game worse, but very often it didn't really end up in what you'd call a 3D game, just a 2D game with some 3D
11:31:23 <wib_jonas> graphics.
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11:35:44 <wib_jonas> Ideally I'd like one where both a 3D game before the first 2D game is clearly 3D and a good game, and the sequel 2D game is clearly 2D and is a good game.
11:38:25 <wib_jonas> Apparently there was a defunct recent not so good mobile phone game called "Mighty Doom" that seems to be 2D, but I don't know how much actual relation it has to previous Doom games other than the name bought for marketing.
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12:11:14 <wib_jonas> It doesn't seem like Star Fox has any game that's fully 2D.
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13:45:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:The]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128003&oldid=100361 * PaxtonPenguin * (+149)
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13:52:26 <esolangs> [[Nopstacle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128004&oldid=127989 * None1 * (+17) /* See also */
13:53:21 <esolangs> [[Yoctofunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128005&oldid=127949 * None1 * (+28) /* Computational class */
13:56:03 <esolangs> [[Nopstacle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128006&oldid=128004 * None1 * (+5)
14:01:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128007&oldid=126140 * PrySigneToFry * (+119) /* What did I do for the translated script? */ new section
14:02:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128008&oldid=128007 * PrySigneToFry * (+122)
14:04:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128009&oldid=126392 * PrySigneToFry * (+42)
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14:47:23 <esolangs> [[AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128012&oldid=127730 * PrySigneToFry * (+36)
14:47:42 <esolangs> [[User:RhubarbJayde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128013&oldid=127806 * RhubarbJayde * (+68)
14:53:05 <esolangs> [[AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128014&oldid=128012 * PrySigneToFry * (+222)
14:56:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128015&oldid=127742 * PrySigneToFry * (+264)
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16:16:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128016&oldid=127962 * PaxtonPenguin * (+70)
16:22:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128017&oldid=128016 * PaxtonPenguin * (+631) /* the hapi bleu box */
16:23:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128018&oldid=128017 * PaxtonPenguin * (+128) /* Button */
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17:51:59 <esolangs> [[Trampolines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128019&oldid=122762 * Aadenboy * (-1) /* Language Overview */
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18:00:48 <esolangs> [[Trampolines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128020&oldid=128019 * Aadenboy * (+795) /* Exponent Calculator */ updated
18:02:12 <esolangs> [[Trampolines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128021&oldid=128020 * Aadenboy * (+177) /* Language Overview */ error handling
18:05:38 <esolangs> [[Trampolines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128022&oldid=128021 * Aadenboy * (-39) Why did I use <ol>...?
18:27:24 <esolangs> [[Greguov-Korec universal Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128024&oldid=127983 * Stkptr * (-23)
18:47:53 <esolangs> [[-Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128025&oldid=125765 * EvyLah * (+230) @ with 9999 makes IP go spinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
18:48:10 <esolangs> [[Greguov-Korec universal Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128026&oldid=128024 * Stkptr * (+1462) M->M3
18:51:12 <esolangs> [[Greguov-Korec universal Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128027&oldid=128026 * Stkptr * (-27)
18:55:05 <esolangs> [[Xenon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128028&oldid=128002 * RhubarbJayde * (+27)
18:55:25 <esolangs> [[+Output]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128029&oldid=125767 * EvyLah * (+259) implementation cleared up
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19:11:48 <esolangs> [[Okayako]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128030&oldid=106774 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+164) Supplemented a countdown example program.
19:12:47 <esolangs> [[Okayako]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128031&oldid=128030 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+234) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the OkayakO programming language on GitHub and supplemented three page category tags.
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19:15:06 <esolangs> [[Greguov-Korec universal Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128032&oldid=128027 * Stkptr * (+55)
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19:31:25 <esolangs> [[Greguov-Korec universal Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128033&oldid=128032 * Stkptr * (+3091) Add more prose for the machine itself
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19:48:24 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128034&oldid=123628 * Keymaker * (+92) /* See also */
20:28:13 <esolangs> [[Okayako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128035&oldid=128031 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+65) Improved the orthography and formatting.
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23:29:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=128036&oldid=128015 * None1 * (+80) /* CHAPTER II */
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