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01:13:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140633&oldid=140573 * Ais523 * (+11) it does work, but you have to write the colon explicitly as <dd> rather than using the abbreviation
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01:42:32 <esolangs> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140634&oldid=140602 * Ais523 * (+2326) TCness proof
01:44:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140635&oldid=140592 * Ais523 * (+424) I proved it TC, assuming I understand it correctly
02:43:34 <esolangs> [[To The Top Right Corner]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140636&oldid=105828 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) See also
02:45:09 <esolangs> [[+++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140637 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+873) Created page with "made by ~~~~ {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Command !! What it do? |- | <code>+[increment]</code> || accumulator += increment |- | ++ || accumulator++ |- | ! || print accumulator |- | ? || input accumulat
02:46:23 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140638&oldid=140637 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-39) /* + compiled into +++ */
02:47:17 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140639&oldid=140638 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1150)
02:47:26 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140640&oldid=140639 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* Interpreter */
02:49:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:BeerLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140641&oldid=140599 * Ais523 * (+1222) r to [[User:Yayimhere]]
02:50:55 <esolangs> [[T3rc+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140642&oldid=140627 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+93) Categories
02:51:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Your Minsky May Vary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140643&oldid=46051 * Ais523 * (+353) r to LegionMammal978 from approximately 9 years ago
02:54:58 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140644&oldid=140199 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Use standard template
02:57:37 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140645&oldid=140640 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Interpreter */
02:58:52 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140646&oldid=140645 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+28) /* Interpreter */
03:00:02 <esolangs> [[Template:Wip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140647&oldid=140163 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-154) Use WIP instead
03:01:34 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140648&oldid=140646 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+5) /* Interpreter */
03:04:43 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140649&oldid=140648 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+60)
03:05:01 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140650&oldid=140649 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+3) /* Calculator */
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05:01:04 <esolangs> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140651&oldid=140426 * Yayimhere * (+125) /* Language specifications */ add the tape stack
05:08:38 <esolangs> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140652&oldid=140651 * Yayimhere * (+352) /* Language specifications */
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05:34:51 <esolangs> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140653&oldid=140652 * Yayimhere * (+137) /* Language specifications */
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05:48:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iddi01 * New user account
06:01:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140654&oldid=140005 * Iddi01 * (+151)
06:06:41 <esolangs> [[Colors]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140655 * DifferentDance8 * (+3819) NOTE: I thought TWFUN and E q u a t i o n were my most ambitious esolangs. Oh, how I was wrong...
06:09:30 <esolangs> [[User:DifferentDance8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140656&oldid=140065 * DifferentDance8 * (+220)
06:10:26 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.py" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140657 * Ractangle * (+459) Created page with "'''Filename "main.py" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly''' is an esolang
06:11:42 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.py" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140658&oldid=140657 * Ractangle * (+9)
06:12:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Colors]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140659 * DifferentDance8 * (+401) Created page with "== This isn't really "unimplemented" == Technically, I have made a interpreter. However, it was extremely broken and I couldn't figure out what was wrong. When it wasn't saying "Cursor has gone out of bounds", it was doing nothing at all. It was in Python, wh
06:16:28 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.py" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140660&oldid=140658 * DifferentDance8 * (+542) hell yeah this is exactly the esolang i need after racking my brain in half with colors
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06:21:10 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.py" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140661&oldid=140660 * Ractangle * (-412) Somebody didn't read the text
06:22:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Filename "main.py" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] to [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]]
06:22:55 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140664&oldid=140662 * Ractangle * (+140)
06:23:42 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140665&oldid=140664 * Ractangle * (+19)
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06:28:59 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140666&oldid=140665 * Ractangle * (+53)
06:29:38 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140667&oldid=140666 * Ractangle * (-16)
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06:37:16 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140668&oldid=140667 * Ractangle * (+42)
06:38:44 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140669&oldid=140668 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Syntax */
06:42:21 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140670&oldid=140669 * Ractangle * (+102)
06:44:20 <esolangs> [[Path (masalt)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140671&oldid=140423 * Ractangle * (-17)
06:44:33 <esolangs> [[Path (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140672&oldid=140461 * Ractangle * (-14)
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08:06:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Coffeeenjoyer * New user account
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08:27:47 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140673&oldid=137545 * None1 * (+86) /* How to help */
08:28:06 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140674&oldid=140673 * None1 * (+13) /* How to help */
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09:53:04 <esolangs> [[Deadfish()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140675 * None1 * (+439) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=Deadfish[]}} {{lang|n=Deadfish[]|a=User:None1|f=[[Deadfish]] but with while loops}} ==New commands== [''code'']: while the accumulator is nonzero, execute ''code'' ==Examples== ===[[Truth Machine]]=== o[o] This is a 0-input program, insert an <cod
09:53:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140676&oldid=140625 * None1 * (+45) /* D */
09:56:23 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140677&oldid=140308 * None1 * (+64) /* My Esolangs */
10:07:33 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140678&oldid=140670 * Ractangle * (-37) /* Syntax */
10:07:50 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140679&oldid=140678 * Ractangle * (+17) /* Syntax */
10:08:07 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140680&oldid=140679 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Hello, world! */
10:08:25 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140681 * Iddi01 * (+40) Since it's likely my biggest contribution to the community
10:08:49 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140682 * Iddi01 * (+965) The other list is cluttered too much
10:09:03 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140683&oldid=140680 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Hello, world! */
10:11:28 <esolangs> [[Lenum]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140684 * Iddi01 * (+7347) lenum is much harder than it looks
10:14:54 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140685&oldid=140683 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Hello, world! */
10:15:07 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140686&oldid=140685 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Hello, world! */
10:18:37 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140687&oldid=140686 * Ractangle * (+8)
10:19:08 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140688&oldid=140687 * Ractangle * (+22)
10:19:38 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140689&oldid=140688 * Ractangle * (-6)
10:21:25 <esolangs> [[Translated dongbei]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140690 * None1 * (+3227) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1}} It is [[dongbei]] but horribly [https://replit.com/@none-None1/Translate-20-times translated 20 times] by google ==Steps== 1. Original code: <pre> # lit. The class Figure, succession of Proletariat # in dongbei, Proletariat is logically t
10:21:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140691&oldid=122173 * Iddi01 * (+283) /* Semi-serious language list */ new section
10:22:28 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140692&oldid=140674 * None1 * (+31) /* Introduction */ Wizzcake and Wizzcake+ are added
10:22:33 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140693&oldid=140689 * Ractangle * (+65) /* Syntax */
10:22:42 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140694&oldid=140693 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Hello, world! */
10:23:03 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140695&oldid=140692 * None1 * (-52) /* Introduction */
10:25:06 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140696&oldid=140677 * None1 * (+35) /* My Implementations */
10:28:11 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140697&oldid=139416 * Ractangle * (+186) /* CATEGORIES */
10:28:28 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140698&oldid=140697 * Ractangle * (+2) /* See also */
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10:32:00 <esolangs> [[Lenum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140699&oldid=140684 * Iddi01 * (+0) /* Implementation */ fix code
10:39:36 <esolangs> [[Obscure]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140700 * DifferentDance8 * (+1249) NOTE: i got permission from i_eat_coffee in order to make this article (src: https://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/post/8152004/)
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10:40:51 <esolangs> [[User:DifferentDance8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140701&oldid=140656 * DifferentDance8 * (+45)
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10:46:27 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140702&oldid=140694 * Ractangle * (+33) /* Syntax */
10:47:07 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140703&oldid=140702 * Ractangle * (+33) /* Examples */
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10:54:32 <wib_jonas> fizzie: the channel logs website apparently has the usual problem
10:56:45 <fizzie> I should put an alert on it.
10:57:55 <fizzie> In fact, now that I think of it, I do already have a HTTP black-box probe on it, but it's pointed at the / path, which *used* to work, but after the Libera move it's now served by nginx (since it's a static page) and not the log-server, so it's stopped working.
10:58:27 <fizzie> It should have the courtesy of breaking when I'm not at work and could justify spending the time to debug it.
11:01:42 <esolangs> [[Lenum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140704&oldid=140699 * Iddi01 * (+105) /* Examples */ How did i forget the truth machine
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11:27:06 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140705&oldid=140682 * None1 * (+17) /* B */
11:27:17 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140706&oldid=140705 * None1 * (+16) /* F */
11:29:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140707&oldid=140691 * None1 * (+486) /* Semi-serious language list */
11:29:59 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140708&oldid=140706 * None1 * (-63) /* Remove this section when languages are added */
11:30:23 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140709&oldid=140708 * None1 * (+15) /* C */
11:31:19 <wib_jonas> hehe, that's a fun way to make a test false pass
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11:35:43 <wib_jonas> WHAT THE HECK? this code works if I pass a constant to this function but not if I pass a variable with the same value? what's wrong with referential transparentiality these days?
11:38:32 <int-e> (you didn't specify a language; could it be something silly like a type mismatch?)
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11:41:49 <wib_jonas> it's VBA, so it can be because the function takes that argument by reference, even though it doesn't make sense in context to change it. further, VBA has this stupid complication where you normally assign a variable using Let, except you assign an object to a variable with Set, and if you Let to a variable that already contains an object then it
11:41:50 <wib_jonas> doesn't assign but just call a magic method in that object, and I have no idea how the heck you're supposed to reset a variable to where it doesn't contain an object
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11:51:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140710&oldid=140635 * Yayimhere * (+123)
11:51:06 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again6]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140711 * None1 * (+537) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/Mihai Again4|This]] is not crazy enough, so let's be crazier! 1. Original code: <pre> ! The meaning of Japan and Japan humanity. ! Rubber, two, rig, fox cgi Limited only ! The meaning of Japan and Japan humanity. No secret! I want your
11:57:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140712&oldid=140610 * Unname4798 * (-3)
12:00:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140713&oldid=140712 * Unname4798 * (+173)
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12:12:13 <wib_jonas> ok, this seems reproducible, my workaround will be to write x - 0 instead of just x as the argument because passing x (a plain variable) doesn't work. ouch.
12:14:11 <wib_jonas> I can't just pass a constant because, you know, then I'd need string eval or something
12:15:10 <wWwwW> is it you b_jonas or wut??
12:15:39 <wib_jonas> f(11) works, f(10+1) works, x=10+0: f(x-0) works, x=10+0: f(x) fails
12:16:51 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140714&oldid=140233 * Yayimhere * (+3) /* commands */
12:16:52 <wib_jonas> I am b_jonas at my dayjob work office, the "wi" stands for "work", I changed from "wo" to "wi" to make fizzie's logs show the nick in the correct green color
12:17:23 <wWwwW> also how does the colors work???
12:19:32 <esolangs> [[PIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140715&oldid=140061 * MihaiEso * (+242) /* With padding at top-left */ Added a example!
12:20:29 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140716&oldid=140110 * Yayimhere * (+10) /* combinators */
12:20:59 <wib_jonas> the colors are computed from the nickname, look it up in https://github.com/fis/esolangs
12:22:52 <esolangs> [[FROSTWIRE-666]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140717&oldid=140716 * Yayimhere * (+32)
12:28:15 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140718&oldid=140711 * MihaiEso * (+204)
12:32:33 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140719&oldid=140714 * Yayimhere * (+518) /* commands */
12:32:42 <wWwwW> add new LOOOOOOOONG operator
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12:36:31 <wWwwW> i wonder if its TC
12:40:10 <esolangs> [[Translated SRL++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140720 * MihaiEso * (+2184) Created page with "[[SRL++]] but worse with Google Translate and weird language pairs! ~~~~ 1. Take this example <pre> # Set up initial state. We use the amount of Is in count to keep track of beer .* _ count IIIIIIIII I count count IIIIIIIIIII (I+) count count >\1< .* _ num 99
12:48:40 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140721&oldid=140458 * MihaiEso * (+194) /* Horribly translated variants */
12:49:12 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140722&oldid=140721 * MihaiEso * (+0) /* Horribly translated variants */
12:59:18 <esolangs> [[MSFE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140723&oldid=140613 * Cycwin * (-2314)
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13:12:25 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140724&oldid=140696 * None1 * (+79) /* My Esolangs */
13:40:00 <fizzie> Colors are computed by using this function https://github.com/fis/esolangs/blob/master/esologs/format.cc#L384-L389 to pick a number between 0 and 9 inclusive, which then corresponds to one of these 10 CSS classes https://github.com/fis/esolangs/blob/master/esologs/web/log.css#L86-L95
13:51:22 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140725&oldid=140719 * Yayimhere * (+4)
13:52:04 <wWwwW> what computational class do you expect this to have?:
13:52:04 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brugtiohell
14:02:09 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140726&oldid=140725 * Yayimhere * (+94) /* commands */
14:15:32 <esolangs> [[;;;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140727&oldid=140260 * Yayimhere * (+9)
14:33:15 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140728&oldid=140283 * Yayimhere * (+32) /* esolangs */
14:45:53 <esolangs> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140729&oldid=140653 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* Language specifications */
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15:45:52 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140730&oldid=140728 * Yayimhere * (-1) /* esolangs */
16:22:52 <korvo> wWwwW: Why would the class have changed?
16:23:36 <korvo> Unrelated: I'm currently saying that the busy-beaver region with intepreters is the "universal regime", or that it shows "universality". I want to do something similar for metainterps. Suggestions?
16:23:57 <korvo> I initially wanted to go with "Futamura regime" but I'm not sure if that's appropriate.
16:48:39 <wWwwW> ...what do you mean?
16:49:48 <korvo> Metainterpreters and specializers are always more complex than interpreters. Futamura made this statement precise.
16:50:39 <korvo> Sorry, that's probably not helpful. There's a sharp difference between a program which *interprets* some input language, and a program which *specializes*, compiles, translates, or partially evaluates some input language *with respect to some second input*.
16:50:40 <int-e> . o O ( Futurama regime )
16:51:16 <wWwwW> but korvo we dont know thy class
16:51:36 <korvo> wWwwW: It's still got S and K.
16:51:57 <wWwwW> i even made a section saying not commands
16:52:06 <wWwwW> they are there to explain the other commands
16:53:50 <wWwwW> ^^^not commands^^^ to clarify this
16:54:53 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140731&oldid=140726 * Yayimhere * (+6) /* commands */
16:54:56 <int-e> wWwwW: your S is wrong, it's \f g x. f x (g x); you have f and g swapped.
16:55:18 <korvo> Doesn't matter. They're *constructible* from primitives. Welcome to Turing-completeness; we don't care about primitives, but emergent behaviors.
16:55:35 <int-e> anyway I don't know what the language you're trying to describe *is*.
16:56:04 <int-e> You have all those external references but no readable grammar for the language you intend to define.
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16:56:38 <int-e> (And after that there's still semantics to pin down.)
16:58:35 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140732&oldid=140731 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* commands */
16:58:51 -!- wWwwW has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
16:59:07 <korvo> wWwwW32: If a subset of your language is TC, then so is the whole language: just program in the TC subset and ignore the rest of the functionality.
16:59:25 <int-e> Anyway I don't like this trend... weird machines (that's a term of art, cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weird_machine ) have their place, but analysing them without a target gets tedious and boring very quickly.
16:59:33 <wWwwW32> yes. but wut is this subset??
17:00:00 <wWwwW32> how many times do i have to say. they are no commands
17:00:14 <wWwwW32> how do you get S and K with the built in commands
17:00:27 <korvo> I asked you and you gave them.
17:01:11 <korvo> I asked you whether S and K were constructible. You said that they were and added them to the wiki page.
17:01:24 <int-e> korvo: the second list just defines all the crap used in the first list in an attempt to specify the semantics
17:02:47 <int-e> korvo: I did not read most of what was written here, mind you. But I'm fairly sure that's the intent of that page.
17:03:22 <korvo> int-e: Ah, I see. I had it backwards.
17:04:04 <korvo> wWwwW32: If you're presenting a combinator calculus, *present it*. How would you feel if you read through the Python or Perl docs and found a section that says "oh, this works the same as in C"
17:04:34 <korvo> Those languages *do* that shit, and so Python and Perl hackers have to know C in order to know those languages. They have an excuse: they used libc in their reference implementations.
17:05:15 <int-e> (`) makes no sense to me either. Unlambda's ` is *syntax*, not an operator.
17:06:00 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140733&oldid=140732 * Yayimhere * (+40) /* commands */
17:06:14 <korvo> What you call "operator" is typically called "combinator". A combinator takes some parameters and returns an applicative tree of those parameters. If it doesn't do that, then it's *not a combinator*.
17:06:39 <korvo> The nice part of this (and what you're missing) is that therefore we can give a combinator calculus by giving the trees generated by each combinator.
17:06:56 <korvo> Like, in `K x y = x`, we're saying that we take two parameters and produce a tree whose root is x.
17:07:08 <int-e> `AB is notation for what would usually be written as (A B) (coupled with a convention for omitting parentheses)
17:07:10 <HackEso> AB? No such file or directory
17:07:40 <korvo> In `S x y z = ((xz)(yz))`, we're saying that we take three parameters and put them into a tree whose root is an application of two branches, each of which is also an application.
17:08:06 <korvo> The notation isn't super-important. The behavior of the combinator -- purely being a *combination* of its parameters -- is what's important.
17:09:34 <korvo> So, what's the tree for `ε x`? What you've given is that it builds a tree which applies ε to x. But ε isn't a parameter!
17:09:43 <int-e> wWwwW32: Anyway, the way forward is probably for somebody who cares about the language (you?) to actually implement a translation of it to lambda calculus or maybe combinatory logic. And then start enumerating small terms (programs) and reducing them to normal form to see whether some small normal forms arise. Ideally you'd find K and S that way.
17:10:23 <wWwwW32> yes im trying. i just want to know wut other ppl think._.
17:10:31 <int-e> wWwwW32: Trying to implement the language could also help you to actually specify it properly.
17:11:01 <wWwwW32> and idk how to evaluate lambda expression nomrally
17:12:51 <int-e> So start with SKI or BCWK combinatory logic (the advantage being that you need no substitutions or variables). So maybe learn that first! It's an easier target for sure.
17:13:11 <wWwwW32> ik about SKI and BCKW. yea ill try
17:14:11 <int-e> The thing about programming is... you can't learn it without getting your hands dirty. But you /can/ pick easy targets.
17:15:13 <wWwwW32> does there exist a function that works like I in normal LC but even thoughh its a normal function the input *somehow* comes from the left and not right
17:17:41 <ski> maybe you could learn Scheme, wWwwW32
17:18:03 <ski> it's a programming language
17:18:20 <wWwwW32> i cant learna. new programming lang. my brain cant do that
17:18:27 <ski> why do you think that ?
17:19:03 <wWwwW32> i cant concentrate. idk how the hell i even learned python
17:19:09 <int-e> ski: heh, did that wake you up?
17:19:20 <ski> well .. i was already awake, so ..
17:19:50 <ski> perhaps having a project to focus on would help, wWwwW32
17:20:24 <wWwwW32> thats prooving the comp class of brugtiohell
17:22:25 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140734&oldid=140733 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* commands */
17:22:44 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140735&oldid=140734 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* commands */
17:26:07 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140736&oldid=140735 * Yayimhere * (-54) /* commands */
17:33:59 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140737&oldid=140736 * Yayimhere * (-36) /* commands */
17:39:28 <korvo> wWwwW32: You don't need anything besides Python for this. Consider: k = lambda x: lambda y: x
17:40:03 <wWwwW32> lambda x : lambda y : x(y)
17:41:21 <int-e> IME it does work. It is fragile though, you really have to stick with the convention (turn *every* application A B into A(B). So A B C becomes A(B)(C), for example)
17:42:33 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140738&oldid=140737 * Yayimhere * (-3) /* commands */
17:43:53 <korvo> wWwwW32: Once you do this, you'll notice that you had `e = lambda x: e(x)`. This is circular in the way I mentioned before, and also in a new obvious way: it's eta-equivalent to itself.
17:44:12 <korvo> Like, `lambda x: e(x)` is just a longer (and less efficient) way to say `e`.
17:47:05 <korvo> Were you hoping for Hilbert's epsilon operator, perhaps?
17:47:16 <wWwwW32> Hilbert's epsilon operator?
17:51:09 <korvo> Never mind. I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to build.
17:56:11 <korvo> Is there something else you're trying to do besides reach TC?
17:56:34 <wWwwW32> and see al the stuff ive learned
17:57:13 <korvo> Mm. So are you studying LC or studying combinators?
17:57:43 <korvo> It's worth remembering that LC is merely syntax. ULC happens to designate the same system as SK. STLC doesn't.
17:59:04 <int-e> . o O ( but do you know why? )
18:00:04 <korvo> Well, if you're studying ULC, then there's no point in Brugtiohell; ULC's three term constructors are universal already, and they're so simple that it's not really possible to do LC without them.'
18:00:25 <wWwwW32> im just intersted in what you can do
18:00:42 <korvo> Anything computable.
18:00:43 <wWwwW32> also esolangs keep me sane:)
18:00:57 <wWwwW32> but what ca you create with it
18:01:17 <wWwwW32> the point of brugtiohell was the see if you could combine different models
18:01:47 <korvo> It's still TC, so it's still designating computable things.
18:02:56 <korvo> Okay, let's introduce *oracles*. An oracle is like a subprogram or subprocess, except that you have no control over it. You may hear them described as "black boxes"; imagine a black tablecloth that covers the oracle.
18:03:37 <korvo> You can think of an oracle as a way to embed a separate model. You can either compute with your normal computer, or you can ask the oracle to handle it.
18:04:39 <korvo> I'm gonna do result first, then jargon. The important result is that, if you can already do anything computable, then an oracle for a computable language doesn't give you any new abilities.
18:06:40 <korvo> In terms of jargon, we say that the class of "recursive languages", called R to be confusing, is "self-low"; this just means that it can't make itself stronger by using itself as a source of oracles.
18:07:09 <korvo> This isn't an uncommon thing. P, the class of problems solvable in poly time, is also self-low, and in fact it was designed to have that property.
18:07:21 <wWwwW32> "called R to be confusing" made me laugh so hard lol
18:07:54 <korvo> Well, it *is* confusing. There's also RE and co-RE, which are closely related but both weaker. This confusion bites anybody who writes programs to search for math proofs.
18:08:54 <korvo> Anyway, sometimes you'll hear people talk of "Turing degrees" or "computability degrees". This is the idea that if you give a Turing machine a *really powerful oracle*, like an oracle that can solve Halting, then you *do* get a power increase.
18:09:02 <int-e> "weaker" in what sense?
18:09:17 <int-e> (IIUC, R = RE \cap co-RE)
18:10:16 <korvo> int-e: Ah, good point, my words are bad. I meant logically weaker, but it's actually a bigger class.
18:10:26 <esolangs> [[DAEANAAACP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140739&oldid=121634 * Yayimhere * (+5) need to show User part of link
18:10:49 <korvo> wWwwW32: So, returning to your current project: mixing two different TC systems isn't going to give you something beyond TC.
18:11:15 <korvo> Indeed, you'll sometimes hear folks talk about a "Church-Turing thesis", which is the (unprovable) assertion that we can't build physical computers which go beyond TC.
18:11:15 <wWwwW32> but what i did was a picked unknown class subsets and put them together
18:11:32 <int-e> korvo: I mostly asked for wWwwW32's benefit, not because I thought you were wrong
18:12:00 <korvo> Sure. Those subsets aren't going to go beyond TC, not as long as you started with TC as a ceiling. That's what Church-Turing is good for; it lets me assume that you didn't invent something magical.
18:12:11 <int-e> wWwwW32: yes, that is normal when you start diving into computability theory
18:12:35 <korvo> int-e: Yep, no worries. My words *are* bad; I think English WP is pretty good reading for computational complexity, and folks should go there for answers.
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18:12:46 <wWwwW> boy oh boy am i in for a ride then
18:14:02 <korvo> wWwwW: So, for example, let's consider a language defined with LC terms. There's either two possibilities: the language gives ULC and it's TC, or the language can be typed and it's weaker than TC. Those are the only two possibilities.
18:14:44 <korvo> Same deal with combinator calculi. They top out at TC in terms of expressive power, and the only open questions are about which bases are TC (or other complexity classes, e.g. with BCI)
18:15:40 <korvo> So when you ask "hey is this TC" and it's phrased in terms of LC or combinators, I'm going to assume it's either TC or weaker, and then look for the strongest stuff that can be constructed.
18:16:28 <korvo> Hopefully my responses earlier make a bit more sense now! I wasn't trying to be dismissive but to show you what parts of your writing were important to my analysis.
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18:20:18 <korvo> I'm a little jealous; it's never made sense to me. I just got used to it, as the saying goes.
18:20:32 -!- wWwwW has quit (Quit: Client closed).
18:21:56 <int-e> korvo: this is a bit mean but I think your standard for understanding something may be higher than wWwwW's
18:23:25 <korvo> int-e: Oh, you can be mean, I don't mind. I have an *extremely* radical self-concept that, among other things, doesn't really understand anything. I don't know what understanding, knowledge, etc. are.
18:24:15 <int-e> I guess. I mean I agree in that it's not an absolute... it comes in various degrees and for most subjects, it's open-ended.
18:24:29 <int-e> "it" being "understanding"
18:25:49 <int-e> ("most subjects" - there are silly exceptions like playing tic-tac-toe where you can literally memorize all positions if you're so inclined. Not that you really have to to play optimally.)
18:26:03 <korvo> (I literally think I'm a p-zombie. Don't put too much stock in me.)
18:27:43 * int-e is reminded of the silly strategy in an underspecified tic-tac-toe where you wait for your opponent (let's say they're X) to threaten three in a row and then you complete that with an X of your own...
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18:29:10 <int-e> korvo: if so, who are you referring to by "I"... hmm.
18:29:30 <int-e> I guess the chinese room becomes relevant, and that's about as far as my philosophy goes.
18:30:11 <korvo> int-e: (This meatbag is using the standard English pronouns in order to be legible. Don't worry about it. We could always be more confusing.)
18:31:02 <int-e> Anyway, *I* can't relate to that experience. But I can't say that it's invalid, obviously.
18:31:42 <int-e> (I can't explain myself; I'm just taking me for granted.)
18:31:45 <korvo> No worries. It's still good times.
18:33:58 <int-e> Man there are so many concepts that get a whole new meaning in this context. "self-doubt" is a good one...
18:35:10 <HackEso> 917) <fungot> but when she saw him fnord and fnord. and then there's the fnord, as well as fnord reading sauce with fish, or fnord, that alice quite fnord for it hadn't spoken before.
18:36:05 <HackEso> alice//Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
18:36:17 <int-e> hmmmmm that does not look correct
18:36:27 <int-e> `learn Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
18:36:29 <HackEso> Relearned 'alice': Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
18:36:34 <HackEso> alice//Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
18:36:55 <int-e> Okay, the output of `w is not what I'd expect.
18:36:58 <HackEso> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
18:37:06 <int-e> Because I used the wrong command.
18:37:23 <int-e> Sorry for the noise.
18:42:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140740&oldid=140676 * Pro465 * (+13) /* B */ add Bigfun
18:50:31 <HackEso> The password of the month is BB(5) = 47176870
18:54:40 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is a matter of ongoing investigations
18:54:44 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is a matter of ongoing investigations
18:55:26 <int-e> (cutting it quite close)
18:56:47 <korvo> Has it really only been a month since BB(5)? Wow, what an action-packed summer.
19:06:28 <int-e> A bit over 3 months if you go by https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/w/index.php?title=BB(5)&action=history ...I don't know when we learned about it.
19:07:15 <int-e> (It's been almost 2 months since the 1st of August when that password was set; September is almost over.)
19:26:20 <korvo> Ah, that feels more likely.
19:26:58 <korvo> The BB Gauge is now feeling like a mature listing. I added meta.bf today and it was only a few lines of work even though I had to add an entire regime to the graph-generation tools.
19:27:38 <korvo> Maybe it's time to put it on front pages. Lobsters for sure. Maybe programming.dev.
19:47:38 <korvo> Oh, I should buy a domain first. It's currently just hanging out on GH Pages: https://mostawesomedude.github.io/bb-gauge/
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19:54:33 <ais523> * int-e is reminded of the silly strategy in an underspecified tic-tac-toe where you wait for your opponent (let's say they're X) to threaten three in a row and then you complete that with an X of your own... ← there's a variant of tic-tac-toe where either player can add an O or X on their turn, and one player is trying to create a line whilst the other player is trying to prevent a line being created, but a few other changes are needed to make it work (
19:54:35 <ais523> IIRC a bigger board, and I can't remember whether the lines are also longer)
19:57:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140741&oldid=140707 * Ais523 * (+706) /* Semi-serious language list */ some thoughts
19:58:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:Snakel logo.png]]"
20:00:32 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140743&oldid=140703 * Ractangle * (+30)
20:04:26 <esolangs> [[Path (masalt)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140744&oldid=140671 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20)
20:05:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140745&oldid=140416 * Ais523 * (+526) /* Tacit programming */ this seems underspecified at present
20:07:23 <esolangs> [[1CP=1ICL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140746&oldid=140729 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Language specifications */ Fix table
20:10:37 <esolangs> [[Turn Left]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140747&oldid=140554 * Ais523 * (+14) /* Computational class */ clarify
20:11:11 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140748&oldid=140743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+125) Formatting, categories
20:11:48 <esolangs> [[Turn Left]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140749&oldid=140747 * Ais523 * (+22) /* See also */ cat
20:12:31 <esolangs> [[Lenum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140750&oldid=140704 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) :
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20:21:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Smalltalk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140751 * Tommyaweosme * (+268) Created page with "[[FORTRAN]], [[python]] [[c]] [[C++]] [[BASIC]] [[perl]] why??? ~~~~"
20:21:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Smalltalk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140752&oldid=140751 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
20:37:21 <int-e> korvo: hmm, what is the Interp(BLC) entry?
20:40:41 <int-e> Oh, I can identify that one by comparing sizes, never mind.
20:49:12 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140753&oldid=140748 * Ractangle * (+0)
20:49:42 <int-e> korvo: It should be merged with the Interp(BLC2) entries though, shouldn't it... it's just taking a wildly different approach (presumably going for efficiency rather than size)
20:50:41 <korvo> int-e: See lambda.json in the source repo. URLs can be put into the sources if there are writeups, arxiv, etc.
20:51:21 <korvo> I don't mind merging them if they're really equivalent to users. Right now I'm finding it more useful to be picky about the inputs to interpreters and then to lump all interpreters together.
20:51:29 <int-e> (It's ait/uniK.lam in the AIT repo; AIUI it avoids capturing all the variables in a list; instead it goes for variadic functions.)
20:51:44 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140754&oldid=140753 * Ractangle * (+49)
20:52:28 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140755&oldid=140754 * Ractangle * (-15)
20:54:04 <int-e> korvo: looks identical in use to me, testing with the admittedly simple (cat id.blc; echo -n 0001) | ./blc run ait/uni.lam and the same with uniK.lam
20:54:13 <esolangs> [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140756&oldid=140755 * Ractangle * (+18)
20:54:38 <int-e> where id.blc is 0010, encoding \x.x
20:54:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] to [[Bake]]
20:56:02 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140759&oldid=140757 * Ractangle * (-266)
20:56:20 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140760&oldid=140759 * Ractangle * (-230)
20:56:39 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140761&oldid=140760 * Ractangle * (-3) /* Syntax */
20:56:54 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140762&oldid=140761 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Hello, world! */
20:57:11 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140763&oldid=140762 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Cat program */
20:57:24 <korvo> int-e: Okay, thanks. I'll update that shortly. Every entry should still appear in the tables at the end of the page, even though the diagrams summarize the best WRT size metrics.
20:57:35 <int-e> korvo: oh the issue is different actually. the 232 bit one is mislabeled as BLC2 but should be BLC
20:57:55 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140764&oldid=140763 * Ractangle * (+0)
20:58:22 <int-e> (BLC2 uses a different encoding for variable indices; I'm not sure that including it is really useful)
20:58:36 <int-e> (but that's not my choice obviously)
20:59:52 <int-e> (The same can, of course, also be said about the byte-based [8] variants.)
21:01:28 <korvo> It's okay if they're not practical; what matters is that they exist and somebody vouches for their correctness. I appreciate your help.
21:01:34 <esolangs> [[Brainmulti]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140765&oldid=127460 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+124) Rectified the Kiwiscript example and supplemented a truth-machine implementation.
21:02:54 <esolangs> [[Brainmulti]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140766&oldid=140765 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+214) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Brainmulti programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
21:04:59 <esolangs> [[Brainmulti]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140767&oldid=140766 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+163) Supplemented further information to the preamble.
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21:38:59 <korvo> int-e: Okay, I pushed a fix and also added some debugging code so that you won't have to go JSON exploring next time. Thanks again.
21:41:16 <int-e> korvo: ah yes, having the file name right there is very useful
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21:53:49 <int-e> korvo: oh note that https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/4813/busy-brain-beaver uses wrapping cells. so they results do not immediately carry over to your page. In particular, -[-] would take, 512 steps, I think, in that golfing challenge.
21:54:46 <korvo> Yeah. The known values are from another page IIRC.
21:56:10 <int-e> The 10 up (10 up 28) at 41 characters should be fine since it only uses values 0..1. The 39 and 63 character ones are not.
21:59:38 <int-e> (I'm not vouching for the 41 character program, I'm going by its description, which contains the phrase "If I'm not mistaken" :-P)
22:01:12 <int-e> it looks fine; it replaced every [+ by [- and left all ]+ intact, and that covers all the increments except for those in the initialization
22:03:22 <int-e> (ironically I wasn't looking for mistakes... all I really wanted was to understand the entry for 5... and then things got out of hand :P)
22:04:24 <int-e> korvo: anyway, you seem to misremember, I'm afraid
22:09:13 <korvo> Oh, no worries. Happens all the time.
22:12:27 <korvo> ...Okay, I don't think I have *any* trustworthy list of BF beavers.
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22:36:43 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140768&oldid=140388 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+9)
22:42:28 <esolangs> [[Zephyr ASDL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140769&oldid=135475 * Corbin * (+74) Clean up a few links and fill out more of the infobox.
22:51:49 <esolangs> [[Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140770&oldid=120434 * Corbin * (+252) Link to one of my favorite Python programs.
22:54:55 <int-e> korvo: Well the entry for 5 is fine (and an equality; you need a loop to exceed 5 and ++[-] is basically the only program that accomplishes that. +[>+] is an infinte loop...). And the one for 41 is likely fine too.
23:05:47 <esolangs> [[Category:1986]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140771 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+32) Created page with "Languages made in the year 1986."
23:06:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Smalltalk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140772&oldid=140752 * None1 * (+300)
23:07:21 <korvo> int-e: Yeah. I was thinking about it and maybe I should write out a script that proves some of the small cases.
23:07:43 <korvo> I should probably also do it WRT number of cells touched, since that should be a BB property too.
23:08:06 <int-e> Does > touch 2 cells? I guess so.
23:08:32 <int-e> Anyway, yeah, that makes sense to me.
23:10:19 <esolangs> [[Category:1986]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140773&oldid=140771 * None1 * (-32) No, Category:Before 1993 already includes this, also undiscussed
23:10:46 <esolangs> [[Fractran]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140774&oldid=139540 * None1 * (+7)
23:15:09 <int-e> korvo: you can probably extract /some/ information from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants (non-wrapping) but it's a different target of course
23:16:25 <korvo> Good point, thanks.
23:22:04 <korvo> int-e: Ah, I found Faase's table https://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_numb.html This is where my ceiling of 48 comes from, I think.
23:27:01 <int-e> korvo: ah that does use the right model. note that for your purpose, you can drop the >[-<+>]< at the end.
23:27:37 <int-e> (All that does is move the number from position 1 to position 0.)
23:35:33 <int-e> Huh, why did he change the program that computs 4^4^4^1 into one that computes 3^3^3^2 instead of 4^4^4^2
23:37:09 <int-e> which would exceed 10^2585827972 at the same size.
23:38:35 <int-e> anyway, that's an interesting construction
23:39:59 <int-e> The program that computes 4^4^4^2 would be >+>+>+>++<[>[-<[->>++<<]>>[-<<++>>]<]<<]>[-<+>]<
23:40:56 <int-e> (replacing 3*1 by 2*2 in the inner loop)