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00:08:13 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries/One per generation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145300 * ZCX islptng * (+12951) Created page with "The discussion thread of the project: [https://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6746|here] <pre> #C b3s23 - b37c8s238 1cpg x = 306, y = 55, rule = B37c8/S238 90bo$90b3o144bo$82bo10bo143b3o$82b3o3b3o2bo2b2o5
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00:42:55 <esolangs> [[3 (islptng)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145301&oldid=145251 * ZCX islptng * (+862)
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01:45:23 <b_jonas> stupid question. there are given N rewards, n kings where n <= N, and for each king, an ordered list of at least one reward (a reward can appear on multiple king's list). when the hero visits a king, the king gives him the first reward from the king's own list that the hero hasn't received yet. the hero visits the kings in some order, each king only once. determine if there's a possible order where a
01:45:29 <b_jonas> king can't give a reward. is it possible to determine this in time polynomial in N? it's possible in nondeterministic polynomial time in N, or exponential time in N.
01:46:20 <ais523> I think your definition of "stupid question" is quite different from the usual one :-D
01:49:28 <b_jonas> it's stupid question because I hadn't thought about it too hard before asking
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01:50:04 <b_jonas> there's probably either an easy polynomial algorithm or an easy reduction from an NP-complete problem
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02:07:34 <esolangs> [[3 (islptng)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145302&oldid=145301 * ZCX islptng * (+34) A more powerful interpreter
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03:04:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145304&oldid=144307 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (-117) Removed link to locked thread) (----
03:07:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145305&oldid=141711 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+334) Is it possible?) (----
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03:29:58 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145306&oldid=145281 * RainbowDash * (-1519) /* Example Code */
03:32:13 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145307&oldid=145306 * RainbowDash * (-1) /* Example Machines */
03:33:46 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145308&oldid=145307 * RainbowDash * (+51)
03:41:25 <esolangs> [[TWFUNSETDCMFIU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145309&oldid=140246 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+8) Wrong term) (----
03:41:27 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise automata]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145310 * RainbowDash * (+2793) Rename infinite noise machine to infinite noise automata
03:42:02 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise automata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145311&oldid=145310 * RainbowDash * (-2793) Blanked the page
03:42:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * RainbowDash * moved [[Infinite noise machine]] to [[Infinite-noise automata]]: I want to rename it to Infinite noise automata
03:43:55 <esolangs> [[Infinite-noise automata]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145314&oldid=145312 * RainbowDash * (+140)
03:46:35 <esolangs> [[Infinite-noise automata]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145315&oldid=145314 * RainbowDash * (-10)
03:49:56 <esolangs> [[Category:No-code esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145316&oldid=131177 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+74)
04:08:29 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145317&oldid=145280 * RainbowDash * (-601)
04:31:29 <int-e> b_jonas: it's NP-complete. https://mathb.in/80141
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07:54:05 <b_jonas> int-e: thank you, I think that works, nice construction
07:56:58 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145318&oldid=144977 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+25) ----) (Fixed user page redirect
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08:59:02 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145319&oldid=144959 * Froginstarch * (+30) /* Instructions */
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09:45:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * QuantumV * New user account
09:48:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145320&oldid=145282 * QuantumV * (+147)
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10:56:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[3]] to [[3 (AndrewBayly)]]
10:57:56 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145323&oldid=145319 * Ractangle * (-12) why do you even need a "main" label
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12:12:58 <iddi01> !zjoust clock >>>+<-<-(>(-)*128<+[<(---+)*-1]-)*8>+[-((-)*256<+[<(---+)*-1]->)*8(-)*-1](+)*21<(-)*33(>)*11([(-)*106[-.][--+[--+]]>]>)*21
12:12:59 <zemhill> iddi01.clock: points 5.93, score 33.55, rank 4/47
12:13:28 <iddi01> Looks like i'm not so terrible at defense programs ;)
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13:55:10 <wWwwW> hey ais523 i shared this esolang with you: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day
13:55:10 <wWwwW> you asked: "i wonder if you can specify it down to a single specification"
13:55:11 <wWwwW> i wanted to rehash this question
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14:14:01 <esolangs> [[BFBASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145324&oldid=118462 * None1 * (+13) 404
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16:57:23 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145325&oldid=145323 * Corbin * (+59) Not to be confused with Standard ML.
16:58:22 <korvo> wWwwW: It's not possible to be TC and also only have exactly one quine, I think.
16:58:47 <wWwwW> why should that be?
16:58:48 <korvo> The folklore version of this is easy: without loss of generality, programs in TC languages have access to their own source code.
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17:01:05 <korvo> Similarly, I think that TC languages will always admit non-narcissist self-interpreters. Certainly they'll have non-narcissist interpreters for *other* TC languages, so that self-interpretation isn't a special case.
17:03:17 <korvo> Why? They're just numbers. No amount of emotion can change whether something is provable.
17:03:41 <wWwwW> true. but i still find it sad
17:03:43 <korvo> A better approach would be to assume that I'm bullshitting and wrong, and look for more rigorous reasons to support or dismiss my claims.
17:06:00 <korvo> wWwwW: Consider a language where printing is the main effect, and imagine running two programs in that language, one after the other. If the first program prints "A" and the second program prints "B", then they'll together print "AB", right?
17:06:43 <wWwwW> not if somehow you restrict it such that no program can be appended to another one and they function
17:06:50 <korvo> But now imagine that we have two programs which are quines, say programs A and B. If we run A and then B, we get "AB". So, this means that your language needs to not have a way to combine A and B to make a new program AB.
17:06:56 <wWwwW> all prograns are kinda "closed off" from each other
17:07:39 <wWwwW> if we say "each quine is one command" then a reduction could happen
17:07:55 <wWwwW> (cuz one command plugged into another becomes a third)
17:08:17 <korvo> Sure. In general, what you're looking for is called a "prefix-free" system: no program is a prefix of another program.
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17:08:48 <korvo> Where "prefix" means what you think it means: A is a prefix of AB because AB can be broken into two pieces and the first piece is equivalent to A.
17:08:55 <wWwwW> so unless FWOTD cant be preefix free then its just that ig
17:09:31 <ais523> <korvo> wWwwW: It's not possible to be TC and also only have exactly one quine, I think. ← I think it's possible in uninteresting ways, e.g. if the *only* program that produces output is a quine
17:09:51 <ais523> or, well, imagine any TC language that can't produce output, the only quine is the null program
17:10:19 <korvo> ais523: I didn't even think about that. I assumed that we were talking about the ability to print any string whatsoever. Whoops.
17:11:07 <wWwwW> true. for all we know it cna have n output(well no cuz narrcicist. unless self interpriting can "produce output". hmmm)
17:11:24 <korvo> nLab has a hilarious page about that: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/too+simple+to+be+simple
17:12:17 <korvo> wWwwW: Wait, does this language actually exist, or is your page asking a question about how to build such a language?
17:12:56 <ais523> last time I thought about generalised versions of this sort of thing, I wound up getting really stuck on the definition of Turing-completeness – for some of the resulting languages there was clearly a program with the same behaviour as any given program in a TC language, but the compilation process was potentially uncomputable, and I think that's enough to *not* actually be TC (otherwise you compile all halting programs into an empty program and all non-
17:12:58 <ais523> halting programs into an infinite loop)
17:13:09 <ais523> korvo: FWOTD is basically a puzzle "design an esolang with this properties", rather than a language
17:13:26 <korvo> ais523: Sure. I suppose I'm wondering what makes those properties interesting.
17:14:01 <ais523> it might just be a randomly generated puzzle, with some amount of human insight that aims to make it not trivially easy or trivially impossible
17:14:09 <korvo> We don't even have a hint about uniqueness or universe. I guess I should assume that languages have symbols, words, grammar, etc.?
17:14:17 <ais523> don't underestimate the interest that comes from randomly generated puzzles, I have dealt with those a lot in the past
17:14:30 <ais523> wWwwW: I sent you a private message
17:15:13 <korvo> Oh, I love jigsaw puzzles! But that doesn't mean that it's easy to learn how to use a jigsaw, and I really don't want wWwwW to think that jigsaw puzzles are jigsaws.
17:16:08 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145326&oldid=145325 * Aadenboy * (+30) make external link
17:16:21 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145327&oldid=145326 * Aadenboy * (+0) pipe fumble
17:19:08 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145328&oldid=145327 * Aadenboy * (+3) also some adjustments
17:20:18 <wWwwW> korvo: waht. sorry if im stupid but umm
17:20:23 <wWwwW> arent they the same???
17:21:17 <esolangs> [[Memoryleek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=145329 * Aadenboy * (+24) redirect
17:21:27 <ais523> wWwwW: nowadays "jigsaw" is often used as an abbreviation for "jigsaw puzzle", but there is a type of saw called a "jigsaw" which used to be used to make the puzzels
17:22:27 <ais523> when I search "jigsaw" in Wikipedia, I get a disambiguation page between "Jigsaw puzzle" and "Jigsaw (tool)"
17:22:32 <ais523> which is what I expected
17:22:40 <esolangs> [[The nutjob from wellington]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145330&oldid=145145 * Yayimhere * (-3042) Blanked the page
17:23:29 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145331&oldid=145064 * Aadenboy * (+2) changing the file extension because ''apparently'' there's a language called ML which uses the file extension ML! absolutely ballistic!
17:25:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[The nutjob from wellington]]": Author request: blanked by author, recently created and only trivial edits by other users
17:31:17 <wWwwW> im keeping a list now
17:31:59 <ais523> hmm, I think to make FWOTD work, lots and lots of programs have to be a narcissist due to the difficulty of working out whether a program is a self-interpreter or not
17:32:30 <wWwwW> maybe there is a "standard"/"command" for self interpreting
17:32:44 <ais523> so it is going to depend somewhat on how you define self-interpreters in the presence of I/O
17:33:23 <ais523> in arbitrarily languages, a program normally takes some number of inputs (usually 0 or 1) – to write a self-interpreter that handles I/O, it needs one more input, because it needs all the inputs to the program it's interpreting plus the program itself
17:33:25 <wWwwW> WHICH is important
17:33:59 <ais523> this came up in, e.g., Advance The Wheel! where I defined a way for programs to take arbitrarily many inputs, that was important to make the self-interpreter simpler
17:34:25 <wWwwW> wow i got somebody interested in ma esolang
17:35:20 <korvo> wWwwW: A jigsaw is a very dangerous power tool. They can remove fingers easily. Similarly, I have an ethical duty to discourage folks from creating the next PHP; language authors need to learn security at some point.
17:35:44 <ais523> so, because self-interpreters have to also be narcissists, it's like they have an extra *output* compared to the program they're interpreting
17:36:08 <ais523> as such, I think you bypass the narcissist problem entirely by giving every program an additional output, that states whether the source code and input are the same
17:36:28 <wWwwW> so it cn be defined as "a program that takes at least two inputs, and returns atleast one"?
17:36:42 <wWwwW> (well no but like its a place to start)
17:37:20 <ais523> when designing esolangs you have a lot of flexibility to define the inputs and outputs
17:38:09 <korvo> Another option, taking a page from Futamura, is to require two typed inputs: the normal input data, and also a FWOTD program as source code! This requires you to have a FWOTD program which copies input data to output and ignores the input program, so that you can ignore the input program in general.
17:38:39 * ais523 wonders about designing a joke esolang where the inputs are really awkward, e.g. real-life, life-sized statues
17:38:52 <wWwwW> wow that sentence confused my brain
17:40:05 <korvo> Futamura projections seem to confuse everybody. But you don't have to go that deep; just recognize that there's a difference between input data (as like text or whatever) and input programs (as ASTs or other abstract syntax).
17:41:41 <korvo> I think ais523's point about additional outputs could be combined with my point. So each program would get two inputs (some data and a program) and two outputs (the normal output, and also whether the interpreter thinks that the input data matches the input program)
17:46:02 <korvo> I guess that the narcissism is a property of the interpreter, not the programs? Or it's a property of programs which is verified by the interpreter?
17:46:38 <wWwwW> i originally thought former
17:49:27 <wWwwW> **warning i may leave soon*
17:51:20 <korvo> No worries. I need to go get breakfast. Take it easy.
17:51:41 <wWwwW> (and i cant come back cuz idk stupid rules)
17:53:27 <b_jonas> "It's not possible to be TC and also only have exactly one quine" => that's mostly true, but technically only if the TC part can also write output arbitrarily. You could easily define a language that is TC but can only output ascii consonants and the program source code needs vowels, or something like that.
17:54:30 <wWwwW> we have talked a lot about this
17:55:00 <b_jonas> ok, I'm still reading the backlog
17:57:15 <wWwwW> i hvae 2 min left guys lol
17:57:29 <wWwwW> (ill check logs if you want to talk after i leave
17:59:26 <b_jonas> ah right, ais523 already mentioned what I said
18:05:19 <esolangs> [[SML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145332&oldid=145328 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
18:08:39 <b_jonas> I'm confused, does https://sleef.org/ have release tarballs hidden somewhere, or am I supposed to just checkout a release tag in its git repository?
18:14:02 <b_jonas> I know some software libraries these days only provide a git repo, most notably mpir
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18:40:13 <b_jonas> "where the inputs are really awkward" => I work in industry where all our inputs come from sensors (such as pressure and temperature meters or switches) of which the hardware is expensive. this is partly because they are brand name stuff where the vendor does not put an "for recrational purposes, no warranties" sticker on them, and partly because some of them have to work in a corrosive or high
18:40:19 <b_jonas> temperature or low temperature or flammable environment, and many of them can't be replaced without stopping production which is expensive. some of this applies not only to the sensors themselves but also the hardware connecting them to the computers, and to the output devices.
18:44:17 <b_jonas> "real-life, life-sized statues" => no statues as such, but this involves ten meter tall tanks that must not leak under a large pressure, also two meter tall tanks that must tolerate high temperature, with an expensive use-once emergency exit that breaks exactly in the right safe way at a specific pressure.
18:44:51 <b_jonas> so I think some of the equipment counts as larger than life-sized
18:49:28 <int-e> b_jonas: I'd guess you're supposed to grab the sleef code from https://github.com/shibatch/sleef/releases
18:58:57 <korvo> I once worked for a manufacturing startup and one of my research projects took machined metal parts as inputs. I might summarize that project as: But Is It a Developable Surface?
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19:23:35 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145333&oldid=145331 * Aadenboy * (-26)
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21:06:35 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=145335&oldid=144989 * Aadenboy * (+488) promotion I guess
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22:25:51 <zzo38> How to tell ITU or ISO a proposal of a OID arc, which will not require registration and will have a number of days since some epoch, and a type of identification, the identification by that type, and then any extra parts that you want to assign?
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23:15:43 <HackEso> [U+12031 CUNEIFORM SIGN AN PLUS NAGA SQUARED]
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