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07:42:29 <ais523> I think humans could adapt to a world without object permanence, but they don't live in such a world, so there's little reason to do so
07:43:00 <int-e> it's hard to imagine such a world tbh
07:44:45 <int-e> Well, as a physical reality, whee human bodies would exist.
07:47:59 <int-e> I guess we have the concept of magic that can do it. So you don't break the rules of physics everywhere, but very selectively.
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08:06:11 <strerror> Claude is on a bike now, and trying to move 1 square to reach a door, but has trouble understanding that bikes move 2 squares at a time
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08:08:36 <strerror> I wonder how human brains figure that out, it's unlikely that we had discrete parity problems in the evolutionary environment
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08:11:45 <int-e> hmm, does crossing rivers count?
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08:16:09 <strerror> Perhaps. I don't know if hominids crossed large rivers though. Bonobos split off from chimpanzees because the Congo river widened, and neither species could cross it.
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08:16:19 <int-e> (I mean the idea that if you crossed a river twice you *probably* wasted a whole lot of energy. But you can't avoid crossing it once if you need something from the other side.)
08:16:41 <int-e> (simplified obviously)
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08:17:43 <int-e> Stuff that moves in discrete intervals though... yeah that feels highly artificial.
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08:18:10 <int-e> That said, the "AI" has discrete inputs so it kind of should cope ;-)
08:19:09 <int-e> strerror: Also, parity phenomena are something we learn. Like, there's this puzzle of a knight on a chessboard with two opposite corners removed, asking for a tour. And I'm sure that this actually stumps people.
08:19:35 <int-e> We do not live in a natural environment anymore.
08:22:23 <int-e> TBH this sounds better (more honest) than DeepMind cherry-picking their showcases to be things that their "AI"s are actually good at.
08:24:56 <strerror> int-e: yes, but Pokémon Red can be played by children without that kind of learning (and might perhaps be the first introduction to parity for some of them)
08:25:48 <int-e> a human will keep track of the squares they can get to and soon realize that 3/4 aren't covered.
08:26:26 <int-e> more object permanence I guess.. the game won't suddenly be different just because we've reached the same square a second time.
08:27:02 <int-e> I think we also leanr that trying random things to see if something interesting or new happens is a problem solving strategy.
08:28:32 <int-e> and I guess we do have a working memory that isn't just a hacky afterthought
09:29:23 <esolangs> [[SETANDCOUNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154672&oldid=144306 * Cycwin * (+15) /* Introduction & Syntax */
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11:59:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154677&oldid=154064 * PrySigneToFry * (+929) /* Hey! */ new section
12:02:58 <esolangs> [[R + S]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154678 * C++DSUCKER * (+931) Created page with "R+S is a very simple esoteric programing language. <br> It is reversible and can't be turing complete because it cant have infinite memory. its only memory is a finite width register of some arbitrary amount of bits === Instructions: === <code>+</code> increments the
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13:49:18 <esolangs> [[FunnyLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154680 * AlmostGalactic * (+8190) Created page with "= FunnyLang = '''Note''': This language is heavily inspired by [https://gitlab.com/tsoding/porth Porth] by Tsoding. FunnyLang is a simple, stack-based, interpreted language implemented in Python. It uses postfix (Reverse Polish) notation for operations and su
13:52:29 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154681&oldid=123532 * PrySigneToFry * (+155)
14:36:01 <esolangs> [[FunnyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154682&oldid=154680 * AlmostGalactic * (-353) /* FunnyLang */
14:52:16 <esolangs> [[SETANDCOUNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154683&oldid=154672 * Cycwin * (+126)
14:54:00 <esolangs> [[SETANDCOUNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154684&oldid=154683 * Cycwin * (+28) /* Some examples */
15:38:21 <korvo> int-e, strerror: Technically we live in a world without object permanence; large objects merely tend to have inertia as a matter of statistics.
15:40:09 <int-e> I'm using it as a cognitive concept in this context
15:41:23 <int-e> so less about how the world functions and more about how we model it and form expectations about it
15:54:23 <korvo> Sure. But, like, we can be misled in both directions. Stage magicians make a career out of fooling people into thinking that an object has not moved.
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15:57:58 <korvo> I dunno. It's an old discussion in neuroscience. Another fun example is when a cat comes into a house with two doors X and Y; the cat crosses X, crosses Y, goes *around the house*, and crosses X again. They look around as if they expected to be somewhere new. Are they being stupid or thinking in 4D?
16:02:15 <korvo> I really liked the video game Antichamber, which glues together a bunch of 3D rooms with a 4D topology. Objects are permanent, but there are many situations where an object's visibility is unintuitive due to 4D effects.
16:07:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esdraslov * New user account
16:13:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154685&oldid=154640 * Esdraslov * (+176)
16:14:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154686&oldid=154685 * Esdraslov * (+8)
16:14:18 <korvo> strerror: You might be interested in the Maupertuisian approach to learning, where a learner is merely trying to minimize the Maupertuis action arising from comparing observations of reality to its predictions. At human scales, object permanence is just a description which lines up with statistics and thus has low action.
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16:30:35 <int-e> korvo: I'm not trying to claim that object permanence is totally accurate. I even thought of (but didn't mention) magicians and how they play around with it before you brought them up.
16:33:16 <korvo> int-e: No worries. I'm not arguing against you, just adding nuance. I thought it was an interesting conversation.
16:33:19 <int-e> Hmm, funny. I've played Antichamber. I thought of it as a portal-based game like Descent and didn't really think about the topology beyond that.
16:33:41 <int-e> korvo: Ah, it's the thing where IRC doesn't carry tone.
16:34:18 <korvo> Ha! That's quite interesting; I never thought of its relation to Portal before!
16:35:33 <int-e> It was a bit confusing to navigate. (Portals in Descent and generally in games (mostly 3d but you can do this in 2d too): levels were a bunch of cubes, which had coordinates, and each face would link to the next cube. So you could completely violate physics too.)
16:35:49 <int-e> Portal the game was novel in that it made it into a game mechanic.
16:36:32 <korvo> Ah, I see. So myhouse.wad would be another portal-based game, even though the goal is explicitly to introduce a non-Euclidean geometry and use it for narrative.
16:37:16 <int-e> IIRC Antichamber *mostly* adhered to the rule that going back where you came from would return you to where you came from... though I seem to recall a few exceptions? It's been a while.
16:40:20 <int-e> Hmm I should say "cubes" because the faces didn't have to be squares nor be orthogonal.
16:43:21 <int-e> In Antichamber the thing I enjoyed most was the various ways to fill levels with cubes. I think I crashed the game a couple of times too :-) (I definitely made the GPU suffer)
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16:46:58 <korvo> I don't think I ever built a healthy relationship with the cubes. I only really learned the speedrunning techniques for them, and any% skips most of the game.
16:47:53 <int-e> Hah. I've never looked into speedruns for Antichamber.
16:48:54 <korvo> It will ruin your respect for some of the puzzles. Speedrunners basically never climb the tower, even in the All Stickers category.
16:49:45 <korvo> Also, just like in Valve's Source games, Antichamber has some fun cube-climbing techniques; once the cube gun's warmed up, it can be used to traverse rooms in arbitrary paths.
16:49:55 <int-e> Hmm. for the most part the puzzles are only interesting up to the point where you can get arbitrary many cubes.
16:51:20 <int-e> In any case, speaking generically... speedrunning games and playing them normally tend to be very different things, I'm used to that. :)
16:53:29 <int-e> I've seen Portal speedruns, for example. 4 or so normal levels (though amazingly fast, thowing boxes instead of walking and placing them and such things) and then they go out of bounds... hilarious. Oh also bunny-hopping backwards because for some reason that's faster than going forwards.
16:55:46 <int-e> And I guess the craziest thing is how they beat GLaDOS... somehow keeping a portal open to a room with turrets, so that the turret shoots at them while they're running towards the boss, hitting it three times which the game counts for releasing the three cores...
16:56:20 <int-e> So... yeah I'd expect crazy tricks that are utterly unlike normal gameplay. :)
16:56:40 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154687&oldid=154679 * 47 * (-92) people can read the dang infobox
16:57:33 <korvo> I don't have any videos of myself running it, but any% involves glitching into the end puzzle almost immediately, usually skipping at least one upgrade, and then executing the end of the game. The PC version is sensitive to window-resize lag, which can be used to clip through doors.
16:58:00 <int-e> that sounds about right
17:01:54 <korvo> Antichamber is one of the rare games where the developer actually has a positive opinion of us, which is why I'm so enthused about it. A lot of indie games are cute and fun, but this one also has an in-game timer and a developer who tells us that it's okay to not use the in-game timer.
17:06:21 <int-e> Is that really so rare? I mean speedrunners tend to be quite enthusiastic about the games the play, so as long as the glitches are rare enough that they won't affect casual players... I
17:06:40 <int-e> 've seen quite a few developers who will not address those.
17:07:29 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154688&oldid=154687 * Corbin * (+15) Trivial complexity class.
17:08:49 <int-e> I guess my sample is biased because a lot of it comes from IGN's "Devs React to Speedruns" series.
17:09:20 <korvo> I think it depends on the nature of the bug and the ease of patching. In Horizon (both of 'em) and the rebooted Sypro trilogy, both using some Unreal/Unity-style world-builder, there's quite a few out-of-bounds that they won't ever fix. But they did fix infinite jumping in Horizon Forbidden West, which was a frame-perfect animation bug.
17:10:40 <korvo> I get really bad vertigo from going OoB, so learning the Forbidden West OoB wasn't fun. It saves a minute but involves swimming in glitched water through a hall of mirrors above a lake of lava.
17:13:10 <esolangs> [[CDE2+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154689 * Esdraslov * (+2490) Created page with "'''CDE2+''' is an esolang by Esdraslov == Commands == In CDE2+, commands parameters are separated by a T and a command ends on a E. {| class="wikitable" !Command !Action |- | style="text-align:center"|<code>MV</code> |Moves the value in parameter 1 to the cell specifie
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17:33:34 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154691&oldid=154688 * 47 * (+17)
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17:55:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:Reversible Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154693&oldid=154470 * Stkptr * (+40)
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17:56:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Braindrunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154694&oldid=154363 * Stkptr * (+99)
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19:53:32 <esolangs> [[```]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154695&oldid=106927 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+637) Introduced an examples section comprehending three incipial members, these constituting a repeating cat program, a truth-machine, and an instruction skipper.
19:54:37 <esolangs> [[```]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154696&oldid=154695 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+177) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ``` programming language on GitHub and altered the Unimplemented category tag to Implemented.
19:54:39 <esolangs> [[CDE2+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154697&oldid=154690 * Esdraslov * (+107)
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20:34:02 <esolangs> [[Unsmiley]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154698&oldid=154629 * Rdococ * (+446) Make it theoretically implementable
20:39:16 <esolangs> [[SCOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154699&oldid=154632 * Anthonykozar * (+8) Adding template WIP.
20:40:02 <esolangs> [[Unsmiley]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154700&oldid=154698 * Rdococ * (-12) /* Semantics */
20:40:24 <esolangs> [[Unsmiley]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154701&oldid=154700 * Rdococ * (-2) /* Ruleset */ promote to full section
20:50:10 <korvo> ais523: Gotta catch a bus, but I hacked out the background parts of that blog post. Everything so far is hopefully uncontroversial: https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/32244043b6b2cea55693a04f286bf1ec
20:52:46 <ais523> I think you might be using "quotient" incorrectly – you are quotienting by the equivalence relation implied by a subset of algorithms, not by the algorithms themselves (which are equivalence classes) – and you seem to be applying that relationship to subprograms too, without explicitly stating that
20:54:51 <ais523> also you haven't defined what notion of equivalence algorithms use, which I think is the most complicated / subtle part of the post
20:55:14 <ais523> it isn't function equivalence because otherwise there would be no difference between an algorithm and a function
20:55:45 <ais523> I think it might be intended to be intentionally open, but in that case you will need to place some constraints on it (e.g. that it is a subset of function equivalence)
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20:56:55 <ais523> I used to work at a university, and our CS theory seminars worked like this: someone would present the work they were working on, spend 10 minutes presenting the definitions, then we'd spend the other 50 mintues discussing the definitions and whether they were correct, and never reach the rest of the research
20:57:10 <ais523> and this seems like it might have been genuinely more valuable than using the seminar time as intended
20:57:41 <ais523> CS results are often fairly easy to reproduce if you know what definitions are being used, and in particular, the set of definitions that are relevant
21:15:55 <esolangs> [[General blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154702&oldid=154319 * Stkptr * (+9138) /* Summary */ Literature dump
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21:48:52 <esolangs> [[HeXPlik]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154706 * Esdraslov * (+2817) Created page with "'''HeXPlik''' is (kind of) based on [[Befunge]] and made by [[User:Esdraslov]] == Commands == '''HeXPlik''' is cell-based, and the cell pointer moves to the next cell everytime a write action is made. Please note that any <code>...</code> should be replaced. '''HeX
21:52:53 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154707&oldid=154655 * Buckets * (+12)
21:53:18 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154708&oldid=154656 * Buckets * (+11)
21:53:34 <esolangs> [[Zypp!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154709 * Buckets * (+784) Created page with "Zypp! Is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 1A.B. || Replace all Instances of A to B. |- | 2C. || Create a cell C. |- | 3D. || Go to Cell D. |- | 4E. || Delete Cell E. |- | 5H.I.J.
21:53:58 <esolangs> [[Zypp!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154710&oldid=154709 * Buckets * (+3)
22:01:28 <korvo> ais523: Ah, that's fair. I guess I should take a completely different approach since I want to talk to programmers, not to people who understand CS.
22:01:36 <korvo> And yes, all the words are incorrect.
22:05:42 <esolangs> [[```]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154711&oldid=154696 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+3050) Supplemented information concerning the architecture.
22:07:17 <esolangs> [[```]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154712&oldid=154711 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+15) Rectified the anchor references in the memory layout.
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22:26:32 <korvo> ais523: Actually, changed my mind and deleted it.
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00:01:37 <esolangs> [[```]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154713&oldid=154712 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Amended an orthographic mistake.
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01:30:12 <esolangs> [[General blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154714&oldid=154703 * Stkptr * (+1344) /* Summary */
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04:26:44 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154716&oldid=154691 * PrySigneToFry * (+222)
04:33:38 <esolangs> [[SECIAEQBNJMPDIFZR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154717&oldid=154715 * Stkptr * (+47) 4 billion addresses each with 4 billion possible values is finite
04:36:22 <esolangs> [[Insanity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154718&oldid=116350 * Stkptr * (+54)
04:37:21 <esolangs> [[General blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154719&oldid=154714 * Stkptr * (+89) /* Example languages */
04:39:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unsmiley]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154720 * Stkptr * (+285) Created page with "== Computability == Since this can arbitrarily modify its own specification, could it be [[uncomputable]]? What are the limits of its self rewriting? Could it add a command which solves the halting problem? ~~~~"
04:56:14 <esolangs> [[Snowflake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154721&oldid=105725 * Ais523 * (+32) see also [[Unsmiley]]
04:56:21 <esolangs> [[Unsmiley]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154722&oldid=154701 * Ais523 * (+33) see also [[Snowflake]]
05:08:15 <korvo> ais523: How's this? https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/f31eff9e483a9e0223f14fb629c55755 I think it properly taunts the reader while assuring them that they don't understand what's going on.
05:10:56 <ais523> korvo: I'm not convinced BF is an A rather than a P, especially if you can't go left of the starting location
05:12:14 <korvo> ais523: It's got a lovely monoid which produces a pile of symmetries. A compiler into BF has to choose e.g. how to move values from one cell to another.
05:12:43 <ais523> korvo: oh, things like [>+<-] versus [->+<]
05:12:56 <ais523> I forgot that symmetry
05:13:24 <korvo> Yeah. Those give non-trivial automorphisms. Malbolge doesn't have anything quite so forgiving, because the automorphism has to act on the encrypted text.
05:14:01 <ais523> Thue as an F also seems like a stretch – I think you can meaningfully define the computational class of a Thue program, which seems wrong for an F
05:14:51 <ais523> err, I meant complexity class and said the wrong thing
05:15:52 <ais523> I guess my intuition is "if the language lets you define both bubble sort and merge sort, and there's a way to tell them apart, the language is not operating only on functions"
05:16:26 <ais523> in any case, I think algorithms versus programs is a continuum rather than two clear categories, depending on how much symmetry there is
05:16:58 <ais523> when compiling you can often choose options for symmetries one by one, rather than having to do it all at once
05:19:06 <korvo> Oh, all of these languages require us to write programs. The difference is that some of them promise that some programs are equivalent to others.
05:20:01 <korvo> In a Brand F language, the programmer doesn't get a choice of algorithm. A Thue author has to confront genuine non-determinism, including perhaps adversarial or nemesis runtimes. A Prolog author can rely on WAM-style evaluation order.
05:20:15 <ais523> during my PhD (and a little before) I was working with a functional hardware description language in which program equivalence was literally and concretely definable
05:21:02 <korvo> In a Brand P language, the programmer must specify any optimizations themselves, because the machine only cares about details and has no insight into its actions.
05:21:10 <ais523> I was dealing with languages that had bounded memory, and knew it – and that meant that you could in theory translate your program into a finite state machine with I/O on the transitions
05:21:38 <ais523> and the programs were equivalent if and only if those were equivalent (i.e. same I/O behaviour even if the state numbering didn't match or some states were duplicated)
05:23:01 <korvo> Nice. Sounds a lot like defunctionalization.
05:23:27 <ais523> korvo: Byzantine (demonic) Thue is not a concept I've thought about much before, except when defining Thue programs that work regardless of evaluation order in order to avoid questions about what Thue's evaluation order actually is
05:24:21 <ais523> I think most people (who know about Thue) consider its evaluation order to be either angelic nondeterminism (i.e. "the interpreter makes choices that will cause the program to work correctly, maybe by evaluating all possibilities in parallel") or entirely random
05:25:01 <ais523> I believe (but may be incorrect) that it was originally intended to be the former, and that it has generally been interpreted as the latter by people writing for or implementing the language
05:25:41 <korvo> Yeah, I got kind of ruined by that one paper introducing adversarial quicksort. Really changed my views on what we mean when we say "choose" or "random" or "non-deterministic".
05:27:19 <ais523> byzantine failures are such an interesting programming concept that feels very esoteric – although they have a fairly real-world usage, in considering how an attacker might attack a program
05:28:19 <ais523> but for, e.g., byzantine-failure-tolerant distributed systems, you have to consider that the failed node might send any possible sequence of bytes over the network, including sequences that contain, e.g., encryption keys that it doesn't know
05:30:05 <korvo> Yep. We usually handle that by saying that a value is "unguessable" if it is, in fact, guessable. Very poor terminology. But the idea is that we assume unguessable values won't be guessed. In practice, we count the bits; 256 bits is fairly unguessable today.
05:30:39 <korvo> And then any capability-theoretic statement can be extended across a network by weakening unforgeability to unguessability.
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05:31:38 <esolangs> [[Infinite state machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154723&oldid=108021 * Stkptr * (-1262) Replace it with actually correct information
05:31:53 <ais523> it would be nice if there were a concise term for "the probability of this ever being guessed within the useful life of the system is too low for us to worry about, even if there's a concerted computing effort made against it"
05:32:39 <korvo> Sometimes we use the same "exponentially-unlikely" phrasing as physicists doing thermodynamics.
05:33:03 <korvo> Have we done thermodynamics of (Turing) machines here yet? It's a fun mind-bender.
05:34:43 <korvo> But yeah, this is nicer than the standard Gordian knot. For example, recently I saw folks arguing over whether ASLR is security by obscurity or not. The answer is no, because ASLR can be revealed using Kerchoff's principle, and the address layout is merely unguessable.
05:35:29 <ais523> I generally consider security to not be "by obscurity" if the thing that's obscure is randomized between sufficiently many symmetrical possibilities
05:36:33 <ais523> the reason security by obscurity doesn't work is the same reason that using single words that a human chose mentally as passwords doesn't work – the number of possibilities that a human is reasonably likely to think of is small enough that the chance of guessing them is unacceptably high
05:38:39 <ais523> fwiw, I don't consider ASLR reliable, but the reason is different – the number of possibilities is too small for me to be comfortable that they won't be guessed
05:39:31 <ais523> it'd be more secure if there were a way to detect failed attempts and lock out the attacker, but often that isn't available for one reason or another, and ASLR has been broken before just by running the program repeatedly until you get the address you need
05:39:55 <ais523> and living with all the segfaults and other similar consequences all the times when the address rolled wrong
05:40:23 <ais523> (additionally, pointer leaks are semi-common – I wouldn't be confident that any given program had no pointer leaks unless the language was enforcing that somehow)
05:41:33 <korvo> And at that point, the language might as well enforce pointer hygiene to cut off the entire avenue of attack.
05:43:43 <zzo38> Valgrind can detect some improper memory accesses and memory leaks. (I often find more memory leaks and invalid accesses in libraries called by my programs than in my programs themself, and when I do find them in my program I can usually correct them without so much difficulty)
05:43:59 <zzo38> I think that ASLR has some advantages and disadvantages.
05:45:35 <ais523> zzo38: so I think Valgrind Memcheck doesn't work against the sort of attacks ASLR is designed to mitigate, unless it's able to notice a return address being overwritten
05:45:54 <ais523> because those attacks use only valid memory addresses that the program is able to access legitimately
05:45:58 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not valgrind detects that
05:47:06 <zzo38> (maybe it is able to do so but not by default; there are some things that it does not do by default but you can add extra switches to do so)
05:47:12 <ais523> I don't know either – my guess is no, but in theory it could notice a return-from-subroutine machine code command popping an address that wasn't written by a call-subroutine command
05:47:39 <ais523> although that would have a lot of false positives nowadays, now that Spectre is a problem that most OSes and compilers want to mitigate
05:47:53 <zzo38> In some programs (although, I think mostly written in assembly language rather than in C, probably), it is sometimes useful to use specific addresses for some things.
05:49:21 <ais523> C compilers used to (and for some platforms still do) compile static and global variables to be stored at memory addresses hardcoded in the generated program, and sometimes also do that for the address of called functions (although it's hard to make that compatible with shared objects so usually they don't)
05:49:56 <zzo38> (With my own idea of operating system design, the program is supposed to be guaranteed the same every time it is run if the program is the same and all input is the same, so ASLR will not be suitable. I have other ideas as well, though.)
05:50:27 <ais523> x86-64 was a big improvement over x86 in that respect – it has an easy syntax for IP-relative memory addressing, which has most of the advantages of hardcoded addresses but is more compatible with ASLR
05:50:49 <ais523> (although it doesn't allow randomizing the section containing the program code separately from the section containing static variables)
05:51:37 <ais523> it makes the shared object case easier, too
05:52:09 <ais523> (and by "easy syntax" I mean easy in the machine code)
05:52:15 <zzo38> Yes, and IP-relative addressing can be helpful for other reasons as well, if you have both absolute and relative addressing available
05:53:48 <ais523> x86-64 does still have absolute addressing although the syntax is a bit more complex (they used the simplest syntax for relative, which I think was the right decision)
05:54:44 <ais523> absolute addressing isn't so useful there because the commands can't take 64-bit immediate values, so the only addresses you can access absolutely are those in the bottom 4 GiB of memory
05:55:03 <ais523> (possibly the bottom 2 GiB if it's interpreted as a signed number, which it might be)
06:17:03 <esolangs> [[257-wrap brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154724&oldid=154641 * Ais523 * (+1197) unstub, cat, and use a more typical page structure
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08:02:17 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154725&oldid=154678 * C++DSUCKER * (+75)
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09:35:51 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154726&oldid=154575 * Ractangle * (-32)
09:36:28 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154727&oldid=154726 * Ractangle * (-13)
09:48:34 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154728&oldid=154727 * Ractangle * (-6)
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10:24:02 <int-e> ais523: Oh this is a bit wild... yes, offsets are signed but if you use 32 bit addressing you get a zero-extended address. But also, virtual addresses are sign-extended. But Linux doesn't allow user space pointers to have the topmost bit set. Otherwise you'd get 6GB of absolute addressable memory. Thirdly, there are some special instructions to load from an absolute 64 bit address.
10:59:56 <esolangs> [[Apollo(PSTF)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154729 * PrySigneToFry * (+3690) Created page with "Apollo is a Brainfuck derivative designed by PSTF. This is inspired from [[Artemis]], [[Brainfuck 2.0]], [[Masqualia]], [[BFInfinity]], Javascript, and [[Brainfuck extended]]. = Syntax Overview = As a Brainfuck derivative, Apollo is [[Turing-complete]], has
11:04:50 <esolangs> [[Apollo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154730 * PrySigneToFry * (+292) Created page with "There are two esolangs calls Apollo in history or currently: # [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]](This is already called Apollo, but then changed to Unifunge) by [[User:Hppavilion1]], which is a fungeoid. # [[Apollo(PSTF)]] by [[User:PrySigneToFry]], which is a Brainfuck
11:05:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154731&oldid=154707 * PrySigneToFry * (+13)
11:25:55 <fizzie> The IPv6 story has stalled a little, except that my ISP's support replied that "we've escalated to the relevant team for further investigation and will let you know", followed by an automated email saying (basically) "you didn't reply to our earlier email, if we don't hear back in 48 hours we'll assume you no longer need help and close your ticket", which was a little rude.
11:30:23 <fizzie> So I sent them back a second list of random debugging things I've tried (other Europe DO datacenters also fail; those also get routed through LONAP; non-Europe DO networks are fine; both the DHCPv6 delegated prefix and the single address assigned to the router behave the same; LONAP's looking-glass service shows that the router sending the address-unreachable errors last changed up/down state the
11:30:25 <fizzie> same day the problems started; traffic to another VPS that goes through LINX instead of LONAP works fine) mostly just to keep it alive.
11:33:27 <fizzie> Oh, DO support just sent a similar thing, except their timer is 3 days rather than 2.
12:02:51 <fizzie> It would be nice if you could still tell IPv6 packets which way they should go, to be able to better test these things, but they deprecated that option long ago -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5095.txt -- and I imagine most places wouldn't have respected it anyway.
12:06:38 <b_jonas> "<ais523> a functional hardware description language in which program equivalence was literally and concretely definable / bounded memory" => did the hardware also have no nondeterminism in cases that you'd call undefined behavior?
12:12:58 <b_jonas> fizzie; "to the relevant team" sounds like a deliberately obscure answer, they don't even want to tell you what department. did they escalate to their criminal reporting department because they think you need IPV6 for money laundering or sending spam? their mental health department because they think you're crazy? their team with the shovels and optical cables to lay new optical cable next to your house?
12:14:46 <b_jonas> "if we don't hear back in 48 hours" => I assume it's enough if they hear back that you did the same test again and still have the same symptoms, eg. can't access the server through IPV6 from your connection but hosts in other ISPs can
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14:19:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PkmnQ * moved [[Apollo(PSTF)]] to [[Apollo (PSTF)]]: Misspelled title: space
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14:27:17 <esolangs> [[Apollo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154734&oldid=154730 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
14:28:41 <esolangs> [[Apollo(PSTF)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154735&oldid=154733 * PrySigneToFry * (+59) Removed redirect to [[Apollo (PSTF)]]
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14:50:17 <ais523> <b_jonas> did the hardware also have no nondeterminism in cases that you'd call undefined behavior? ← there was no UB in the language (it was somewhat easier than normal to avoid because the langauge didn't support division, just addition, subtraction, multiplication and bitwise operators)
14:50:56 <ais523> the research was primarily about statically avoiding race conditions (interestingly, Rust ended up doing the same thing, basically the same way, a couple of years later)
14:51:14 <ais523> so we didn't have problems with those either
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15:17:20 <int-e> ais523: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-03-30.html#lFb was for you
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15:36:26 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154736&oldid=150865 * DGCK81LNN * (-4)
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15:48:32 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154737&oldid=154736 * DGCK81LNN * (-40)
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15:51:02 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154738&oldid=154737 * DGCK81LNN * (+13) /* Koishi runtime specific */
16:14:09 <esolangs> [[User:Esdraslov]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154739 * Esdraslov * (+195) Created page with "I am [[User:Esdraslov]] == My Esosteric programming languages == [[CDE2+]] EDE [[HeXPlik]] _!dlroW ,olleH-=p[<p]/ {{{{{{{{{{{{{[.}] [[SECIAEQBNJMPDIFZR]] IOI 108 108 IOI+1"
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16:21:16 <ais523> int-e: ooh, so it's even more complicated than I expected
17:04:53 <int-e> I didn't know that either. :)
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17:55:10 * ais523 finds a yacc grammar which produces exponentially large compiled output: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/278992
17:56:50 <ais523> I like this one because it exploits properties of the target virtual machine – almost all yacc implementations compile via deterministic push-down automata, and this program can't be represented in less than exponential code by a DPDA
17:57:28 <ais523> so in a way the output is "inherently" exponentially large
18:03:37 <ais523> now I'm wondering how non-yaccs handle this – I suspect backtracking parsers might do quite well as they can handle the entire program in only 24 backtracks
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18:16:35 <b_jonas> ais523: is this one of those that get much easier to parse if the input is reversed?
18:17:08 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, but you can work around that by writing the reverse grammar too and concatenating them with a `2` between them
18:17:11 <ais523> so that reversing doesn't help
18:19:03 <b_jonas> as for compiler bombs, I recently tried what happens if you give rustc an exponential size macro_rules macro expansion. it just blows up, doesn't seem to have limits stopping that.
18:19:56 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154740&oldid=151770 * Ractangle * (-11) /* Other things */
18:20:23 <ais523> the threat model for DOS attacks on compilers is interesting
18:20:48 <ais523> most of the time you assume that any code you're going to compile, you're also going to run unsandboxed, so there isn't a need to guard against source code that maliciously attacks the compiler
18:21:48 <ais523> I have seen some compilers that don't make that assumption, e.g. Rust's `regex` crate intentionally aims for performance that's linear-time in the length of the regex plus the length of its input, meaning that malicious end-user-supplied regexes can't cause a DOS
18:23:29 <b_jonas> there's this DOS I recently found that is not related to a compiler but should be running sandboxed => https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-03.html#lDU
18:23:32 <esolangs> [[L-system]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154741&oldid=154670 * Stkptr * (+19) /* Python implementation (D2L) */ Support empty string emission
18:24:23 <ais523> hmm, maybe the "prevent this web page showing additional dialogs" option should be used in that case too, if it isn't already
18:24:43 <b_jonas> you don't get to choose options between the dialogs
18:24:55 <b_jonas> and the dialog is modal so you can't choose anything during the dialog
18:27:00 <ais523> I think the option is normally placed *in* the dialog so that you can select it even if the dialog is modal
18:27:07 <ais523> but maybe Firefox can't adjust the file-save dialog like that
18:27:55 <int-e> is it too heretical to suggest that the problem here is JS ;-)
18:28:16 <ais523> does that attack even require JS?
18:28:29 <int-e> how else would you trigger *multiple* downloads at the same time?
18:30:02 <b_jonas> I think everyone learns the frames trick from sourceforge, it shows a frame to be able to show you an advertisment-riddled page and send a download at the same time
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18:30:39 <int-e> . o O ( what's sourceforge ) (scnr)
18:31:14 <b_jonas> yeah, you can't really modify the Windows save dialog that way, at least not in a way that's transparent to the users. you could put a fake save format in the list, but users might not find it.
18:31:43 <b_jonas> but firefox could ask a question after you cancel a save dialog
18:32:15 <esolangs> [[HeXPlik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154742&oldid=154706 * Stkptr * (+29) Seems TC enough
18:32:21 <b_jonas> like after that you have to click somewhere to show more save dialogs
18:32:30 <b_jonas> it does something like that with popups
18:33:31 <int-e> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/under-new-management-sourceforge-moves-to-put-badness-in-past/ ...I wonder how that went
18:33:52 <int-e> I haven't touched the site since 2015.
18:38:09 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154743&oldid=154725 * Stkptr * (+62) Combinational, no category for that
18:48:03 <b_jonas> also large sizes reminds me, https://sqlite.org/limits.html says that in theory sqlite can handle databases as large as 256 tebibytes, but “This particular upper bound is untested since the developers do not have access to hardware capable of reaching this limit.”
18:48:44 <b_jonas> these days 256 tebibytes file size should be reachable so they might be able to test it
18:50:30 <b_jonas> date announced, SIGBOVIK conference is on 2025-04-04 http://sigbovik.org/2025/
19:07:27 <ais523> hmm, if a server did have 256 TiB of storage, how long would it take to fill it all?
19:07:43 <ais523> I guess it wouldn't even be that long, given that it's only TiB, not PiB or XiB
19:08:04 <ais523> people do gigabyte-scale things all the time, this is only 1000 times as much
19:22:28 <zzo38> The other possibility might be to make up a VFS to make up the data as it is being read, if it can be made up according to the proper file format and trees
19:28:27 <b_jonas> it might not be very fast, but I don't think that's a problem here
19:52:25 <esolangs> [[User:HiIam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154744&oldid=131148 * HiIam * (+79) Well, it's fine... I guess.
19:54:01 <esolangs> [[User:HiIam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154745&oldid=154744 * HiIam * (+4) Not a big change...
20:05:23 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154746&oldid=154395 * Timwi * (+169) Regular expressions: add (used in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt_8O7ZHmFQ), and change layout
20:39:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154747&oldid=154731 * Buckets * (+16)
20:40:01 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154748&oldid=154708 * Buckets * (+15)
20:40:16 <esolangs> [[```]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154749&oldid=154713 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+0) Amended a word's case to its minuscular form.
20:40:18 <esolangs> [[Misprefix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154750 * Buckets * (+653) Created page with "Misprefix is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | Cre- || Create a New command. |- | Ed- || Name the Newest command. |- | Je- || End the Naming process. |- | Yon- || Set the speci
20:42:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154751&oldid=153081 * BestCoder * (+67)
20:48:20 <esolangs> [[Template:Stubnoinfo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154752&oldid=129874 * Ractangle * (+43)
20:55:26 <esolangs> [[Misprefix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154753&oldid=154750 * Buckets * (+211)
21:04:37 <esolangs> [[Abba]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154754&oldid=152646 * Buckets * (+9)
21:04:51 <esolangs> [[Abba]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154755&oldid=154754 * Buckets * (+0)
21:13:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uhidklol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154756&oldid=154154 * Juanp32 * (+302)
21:28:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154757&oldid=148910 * Buckets * (+283)
21:36:17 <esolangs> [[Happy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154758&oldid=154343 * Buckets * (+35)
21:43:16 <esolangs> [[Misprefix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154759&oldid=154753 * Buckets * (-1)
21:51:01 <esolangs> [[Sleep.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154760&oldid=154456 * Buckets * (+66)
21:57:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:ight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154761&oldid=154757 * Buckets * (-19)
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22:40:02 <esolangs> [[PTL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154762&oldid=117645 * Buckets * (+0) /* Truth machine */
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23:54:23 <esolangs> [[BitTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154763&oldid=150583 * Stkptr * (+358)
23:56:52 <esolangs> [[Albuqer chng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154764&oldid=148764 * Stkptr * (+28)
23:59:10 <esolangs> [[Domino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154765&oldid=54408 * Stkptr * (+24) Unknown class
23:59:37 <esolangs> [[EISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154766&oldid=37959 * Stkptr * (+23)
00:07:18 <esolangs> [[EvenOdd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154767&oldid=126727 * Stkptr * (+58) Can only define functions
00:23:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:NOB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154768 * Anthonykozar * (+924) Some suggestions for clarification.
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01:30:01 <zzo38> I also had some ideas relating to a graphics processor of a computer, that it could have memory areas that cannot access each other (for security), and windows that have memory areas assigned to them (some of which will be read-only), and will also contain programs for altering registers per scanline and for rendering pixels (which may work in parallel, or during the previous scanline, or both).
01:31:35 <zzo38> A window may have position, size, and depth, and may be mapped in a specific order and in specific other windows. And then, there may also be sprites, which can also belong to windows and will have a position, size, depth, and order.
01:32:05 <zzo38> (This is not for 3D graphics, but it is for 2D graphics)
02:08:50 <ais523> what's a good name for a special conceptual value that can be read and stored, but returns itself if used as an operand of an arithmetic operation, and is UB to branch on?
02:08:58 <ais523> sort-of like how uninitialised memory works in Valgrind
02:11:28 <ais523> (bonus points if it doesn't return itself in cases where the value doesn't otherwise matter, e.g. it becomes 0 if you multiply it by 0)
02:12:16 <ais523> in a way it's very similar to NaN, I guess
02:28:31 <zzo38> Yes, it seems to be like NaN but not quite.
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04:10:05 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154769&oldid=154634 * I am islptng * (+109) /* xdi8 wiki */
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04:57:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:NOB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154770&oldid=154768 * Anthonykozar * (+414) More suggestions.
05:49:09 <esolangs> [[User:Win7HE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154771&oldid=151665 * Win7HE * (-7) /* Smasnug (hq9+3/oi[]) */
05:49:20 <esolangs> [[User:Win7HE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154772&oldid=154771 * Win7HE * (+2) /* Smasnug */
05:54:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Win7HE * uploaded "[[File:A more descriptive name.jpeg]]": pepsi
06:05:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Win7HE * uploaded a new version of "[[File:When start.png]]": Recreated in PenguinMod
06:06:36 <esolangs> [[File:When start.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154775&oldid=154774 * Win7HE * (+81)
06:06:52 <esolangs> [[File:When start.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154776&oldid=154775 * Win7HE * (+0)
06:21:23 <esolangs> [[User:Win7HE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154777&oldid=154772 * Win7HE * (-57) /* Deadman (technically deadfish 2.1) */
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08:16:59 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Lambda Calculus Tutorial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154778 * I am islptng * (+1986) Created page with ":::::<i>Thanks for YouTuber 2swap (His video helps a lot.)</i> Since I was confused about lambda calculus at first, and I took a long time to understand it. So I'll write this article to help others. Also evaluating lambda expres
08:23:43 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Lambda Calculus Tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154779&oldid=154778 * I am islptng * (+82)
08:32:57 <b_jonas> ais523: infinity? no, that isn't UB to branch on.
08:33:41 <b_jonas> possibly "indefinite representation" or something
08:34:59 <b_jonas> or how about poisoned (rotten, moldy, tainted) value?
08:35:19 <b_jonas> you have to treat anything it touches as also poisonous
08:35:39 <b_jonas> because one drop of poison mixed with a barrel of wine still counts as poison
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13:59:53 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154780 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+664) Created page with "{{displaytitle:twasm}} {{lc:<div> twasm is a cpu assembly with 4 instructions {| !opcode!!binary code!!arguments!!action |-halt||00||none||halts the processor |-jinz||01||addr1, addr2||jumps execution to addr2 if the value at addr1 is not zero |-copy||11||addr1,
14:00:09 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154781&oldid=154780 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0)
14:00:34 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154782&oldid=154781 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-18)
14:02:36 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154783&oldid=154782 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+32)
14:03:03 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154784&oldid=154783 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+3)
15:14:17 <korvo> ais523: Another possibility is "tainting", which is what PyPy called it. They've removed the feature now, but it used to be possible to "taint" a value, and accesses to a tainted value would either throw an exception or return more taint. Def 5 for verb form: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/taint
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20:23:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sigil]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154785 * Anthonykozar * (+1112) Questions and comments about Sigil syntax and semantics.
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20:41:36 <zemhill> ally_ok: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
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22:02:25 <ais523> korvo: Perl has tainted values too, but they work a bit differently – you can branch on them but not pass them to I/O builtins
22:05:07 <ais523> <b_jonas> possibly "indefinite representation" or something ← I think names of that form are often used for a specific NaN payload (IIRC the one where the two most significant bits are 1 and everything else is 0)
22:05:19 <ais523> as opposed to canonical NaN, which has one 1 bit at the top
22:06:09 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, "indefinite" is not appropriate here, I figured out a bit better ones after that
22:06:33 <ais523> hmm – the value in question is basically the "don't care" value from electronic engineering, usually called X
22:06:47 <ais523> VHDL has it as an actual constant in the language
22:06:57 <ais523> (and uses it as the NaN equivalent for booleans)
22:07:12 <ais523> well, they aren't technically booleans but their main states are true and false, like booleans have
22:07:56 <b_jonas> I was thinking of hardware bit indefinite, where the voltage might not be read consistently as a zero or one
22:07:56 <b_jonas> so branching on it might not consistently produce one or the other branch but could give a mixture
22:08:46 <ais523> I think in VHDL that can be represented by either X or W, depending on what happens if you connect a strong voltage to it
22:09:05 <ais523> i.e. W is being weakly pulled both up and down, whereas something that's being strongly pulled both up and down is an X
22:09:15 <ais523> (and something that's just purely floating is Z)
22:10:57 <ais523> oh wait, I think "don't care" might be - rather than X
22:11:02 <ais523> it's so long since I did this
22:11:15 <ais523> it's hard to remember all the various behaviours of 9-valued booleans
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22:55:31 <ais523> fortunately, I turned out not to need this sort of value, so I no longer have a pressing need for a name (but it seems potentially useful for the future)
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23:38:22 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154786 * I am islptng * (+1435) Created page with "...... anyway this is my sandbox (silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box, sand in a plastic box, sand box, sandbox) == The uaZ of uoy1d, by SJ313d W!1 == {{SUBST:wrongtitle|title=The <span style="display:inline-blo
23:39:10 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154787&oldid=154786 * I am islptng * (+37)
23:40:20 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154788&oldid=154787 * I am islptng * (-12) /* The uaZ of uoy1d, by SJ313d W!1 */
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00:35:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dhzb * New user account
00:49:07 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154789&oldid=153862 * BoundedBeans * (+132) Added Quassaunt
00:50:44 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154790&oldid=154789 * BoundedBeans * (+209) Added SATire
01:03:56 <esolangs> [[DotNetOISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154791&oldid=129348 * BoundedBeans * (+1245) Added ]]SET+TERMINATOR function
01:06:10 <esolangs> [[DotNetOISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154792&oldid=154791 * BoundedBeans * (+212) Added queue detail of ]]SET+TERMINATOR
01:07:43 <esolangs> [[DotNetOISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154793&oldid=154792 * BoundedBeans * (-112) No need to delete bin/ directory three separate times in truth-machine
01:13:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154794&oldid=153255 * I am islptng * (+1146)
01:14:32 <esolangs> [[DotNetOISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154795&oldid=154793 * BoundedBeans * (+90) Clarified some aspects of gotos/labels
01:15:31 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154796&oldid=154784 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-15)
01:16:12 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154797&oldid=154796 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+12)
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01:48:07 <esolangs> [[Template:CURRENTDATE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154798 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+48) Created page with "{{CURRENTYEAR}}-{{CURRENTMONTH}}-{{CURRENTDAY2}}"
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02:03:22 <esolangs> [[Braindeadcpu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154799 * Baldibacak * (+743) creation of this shitty esolang
02:03:42 <esolangs> [[Braindeadcpu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154800&oldid=154799 * Baldibacak * (+6)
02:07:11 <esolangs> [[Braindeadcpu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154801&oldid=154800 * Baldibacak * (+38)
02:08:08 <esolangs> [[Braindeadcpu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154802&oldid=154801 * Baldibacak * (+127) /* Commands */
02:08:16 <esolangs> [[Template:April]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154803 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+105) Created page with "{{#ifeq: {{#time: m-d}} | 04-01 | <div>{{{2|}}}</div> | {{#ifeq: {{{1|y}}} | n | <div>{{{3|}}}</div> | }}"
02:08:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:ONE WAY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154804 * DigitalDetective47 * (+404) /* Computational Class */ new section
02:11:47 <esolangs> [[Template:April]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154805&oldid=154803 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+2)
02:19:26 <esolangs> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154806&oldid=151367 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+20) /* Commands */
02:30:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154807&oldid=154747 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+26) /* T */
02:37:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154808&oldid=154807 * Ais523 * (-26) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/154807|154807]] by [[Special:Contributions/JHSHernandez-ZBH|JHSHernandez-ZBH]] ([[User talk:JHSHernandez-ZBH|talk]]) it doesn't make sense to have a language that is on the language list only on April 1, that isn't how lists work
02:37:53 <esolangs> [[Brit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154809 * Dmiz * (+2358) Created page with "Brit is are an esolang created to be cool looking <br> Brit are stack based and suport variables <br> you write brit code using tildas(~) and lines to separate commands, you need the bar (|) at the beginning of each sentence, which tells the interpreter to execute the line, i
02:45:34 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154810&oldid=153159 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-22)
03:08:47 <esolangs> [[Tables]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154811&oldid=65726 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-9)
03:20:29 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154812&oldid=154746 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0)
03:21:13 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154813&oldid=154812 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+2)
03:21:50 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154814&oldid=154813 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+2) /* Syntactic elements */
03:22:37 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154815&oldid=154814 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+4) /* NAND and the splitter */
03:26:04 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154816&oldid=154815 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+62) /* NAND and the splitter */
03:28:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154817&oldid=152087 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+110)
03:29:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154818&oldid=154817 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+47) /* {{april|y|april fools|I made a template for april fools}} */
03:29:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154819&oldid=154818 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+4) /* {{april|y|april fools|I made a template for april fools}} */
03:31:10 <esolangs> [[Template:April]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154820&oldid=154805 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+80)
03:31:35 <esolangs> [[Template:April]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154821&oldid=154820 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+13)
03:31:52 <esolangs> [[Template:April]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154822&oldid=154821 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-13)
03:33:34 <esolangs> [[Template:April]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154823&oldid=154822 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+27)
03:34:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154824&oldid=154819 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+81) /* {{april|y|april fools|I made a template for april fools}} */
03:34:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154825&oldid=154824 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-11) /* {{april|y|april fools|I made a template for april fools}} */
03:35:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154826&oldid=154825 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-1) /* {{april|y|april fools|I made a template for april fools}} */
03:35:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154827&oldid=154826 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+3) /* {{april|y|april fools|I made a template for april fools}} */
03:39:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154828&oldid=154827 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+138) /* {{april|y|april fools|I made a template for april fools}} */
03:39:46 <esolangs> [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154829&oldid=150366 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+10) /* See also */
03:40:18 <esolangs> [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154830&oldid=154829 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+8) /* See also */
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03:57:00 <esolangs> [[AREA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154832&oldid=144230 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0) Changed redirect target from [[JAGL]] to [[Just]]
04:00:45 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154833&oldid=154201 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+26)
04:29:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154834&oldid=154828 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+18) /* {{april|y|april fools|I made a template for april fools}} */
04:33:21 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154835&oldid=154797 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+10)
04:33:39 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154836&oldid=154835 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+7)
04:33:57 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154837&oldid=154836 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+2)
04:34:07 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154838&oldid=154837 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0)
04:34:20 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154839&oldid=154838 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0)
04:34:38 <esolangs> [[Twasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154840&oldid=154839 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-13)
04:48:32 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154841&oldid=154833 * Ais523 * (-26) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/154833|154833]] by [[Special:Contributions/JHSHernandez-ZBH|JHSHernandez-ZBH]] ([[User talk:JHSHernandez-ZBH|talk]]) again, it doesn't make sense for a page to appear on a list only on April Fool's Day
04:50:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154842&oldid=154834 * Ais523 * (+592) /* I made a template for april fools */ this doesn't seem useful
05:19:24 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Game rules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154843&oldid=134089 * Zzo38 * (+59) The HTTP server is currently disabled due to botnets but there is an alternative resource.
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05:35:59 <esolangs> [[Ifle-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154844 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+379) Created page with "A language is '''Ifle-complete''' if it satisfies the following requirements: # It must be [[plushie-complete]]. # It must be able to do all functions available in [[TM]]. # It must be able to do all functions available in [[HQ9+]]. # It must be able to do
05:37:29 <esolangs> [[Ifle-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154845&oldid=154844 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-73)
05:39:26 <esolangs> [[Ifle-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154846&oldid=154845 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+23)
05:41:13 <esolangs> [[Ifle-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154847&oldid=154846 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-3)
05:46:38 <esolangs> [[Ifle-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154848&oldid=154847 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-11)
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07:17:49 <b_jonas> `learn The password of the month is outside the scope of this wisdom entry.
07:17:53 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is outside the scope of this wisdom entry.
07:17:56 <HackEso> The password of the month is outside the scope of this wisdom entry.
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07:40:09 <esolangs> [[Non-Plushie-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154849&oldid=154424 * JIT * (+35)
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07:55:33 <korvo> Okay, I got the arrows the right way around: https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/f31eff9e483a9e0223f14fb629c55755
07:56:41 <korvo> When I was ranting the other night, I was holding the symmetries inside-out and thus upside-down; I was looking at {4} and {1, 1, 1, 1} and saying that their cardinalities were 4 and 1 instead of 1 and 4.
07:57:24 <korvo> But the principles still apply. The idea about compilers seems to make sense, although I'm a little sleep-deprived and maybe it's gibberish.
08:01:00 <korvo> I'm gonna sleep on it, but I'm thinking about surjectivity. Last time, we talked about the BF fragments [>+<-] and [->+<] which perform the same copy/move operation and witness a commuting series of memory accesses. More directly, [-] and [+] perform the same memory operation up to get/put semantics; they both put 0 to the pointed cell.
08:02:16 <korvo> This is a sense in which compiling to a Brand A system *requires* symmetry breaking, even if one wants to argue that [>+<-] and [->+<] are technically subtly different in their micro-op ordering.
08:03:43 <esolangs> [[TEIJFOP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154850&oldid=154225 * JIT * (-29)
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08:40:14 <ais523> hmm, now I'm thinking about Brainpocalypse II – as far as I can tell, the only symmetry of the numerical version is in which number you give to which cell – and the minimized version doesn't straightforwardly have even that symmetry
08:41:13 <ais523> the BF-like <>+- version contains more symmetries, as you can add and remove <> and >< pairs as long as you don't go to the left of the starting location
08:41:52 <ais523> there's a point at which removing symmetries from an algorithm makes a program, but I'm not sure which of those points it is
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09:08:54 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154851&oldid=154407 * I am islptng * (+1469)
09:15:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154852&oldid=154686 * Dhzb * (+144)
09:23:20 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154853 * Dhzb * (+26) Created page with "# [[Rura|rura]] # [[Moed]]"
09:23:32 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154854&oldid=154851 * I am islptng * (+76)
09:26:36 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154855&oldid=154854 * I am islptng * (-196) /* Examples */
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10:36:06 <esolangs> [[Ifle-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154856&oldid=154848 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+30)
10:38:12 <esolangs> [[Islp-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154857 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+45) Redirected page to [[User:I am islptng/Islp-complete]]
10:38:37 <esolangs> [[Islp-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154858&oldid=154857 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0) Changed redirect target from [[User:I am islptng/Islp-complete]] to [[User:I am islptng/Islp-Complete]]
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10:46:47 <esolangs> [[5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154859&oldid=145654 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+89) count: 5, 2, 3, 4, 1, 6, 7, 8, 9
10:48:51 <esolangs> [[5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154860&oldid=154859 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+48)
10:49:04 <esolangs> [[5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154861&oldid=154860 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+1)
10:49:26 <esolangs> [[5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154862&oldid=154861 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0) /* Cell-based instructions */
10:50:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154863&oldid=154583 * RocketRace * (+147) /* Unstack */
10:54:02 <esolangs> [[MetaInterpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154864 * JIT * (+13153) Created page with "MetaInterpreter (or TIN PET (for short)) is an esolang by [[User:JIT]], 2025, April fools (or the april fools<sup>th</sup> of 2025) ''"What if the esolang had an interpreter (that was also an esolang) and <small>the esolang had an interpreter (that was also an eso
10:54:42 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154865&oldid=154808 * JIT * (+22)
10:55:00 <esolangs> [[TIN PET]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154866 * JIT * (+29) Redirected page to [[MetaInterpreter]]
10:56:25 <esolangs> [[Ifle-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154867&oldid=154856 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+72)
11:08:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154868&oldid=154842 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-52) /* I made a template for april fools */
11:10:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154869&oldid=154868 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+236) /* I made a template for april fools */
11:11:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154870&oldid=154869 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+4) /* I made a template for april fools */
11:12:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * JHSHernandez-ZBH * moved [[Template:April]] to [[User:JHSHernandez-ZBH/templates/April]]: unusable
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11:16:41 <esolangs> [[Introduction to esolang design]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154873&oldid=76470 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-6) /* Other Sentence Type Languages */
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12:07:01 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154874&oldid=152091 * 447xpro * (+325) /* Notable implementations */ Added docker runtime
12:08:02 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154875&oldid=154874 * 447xpro * (-2) /* Docker runtime */ link format
12:09:26 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154876&oldid=151073 * 447xpro * (+256) /* Normal implementations */ Added docker implementation
12:10:36 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154877&oldid=154875 * 447xpro * (-43) /* Docker runtime */ nicer link
13:03:20 <esolangs> [[Brit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154878&oldid=154809 * Dmiz * (+6)
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13:43:34 <esolangs> [[Brit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154881&oldid=154880 * Dmiz * (-95)
13:54:54 <esolangs> [[Braindeadcpu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154882&oldid=154802 * Baldibacak * (-17)
13:57:18 <esolangs> [[Braindeadcpu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154883&oldid=154882 * Baldibacak * (+43)
14:04:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154884&oldid=154254 * Cycwin * (+588) /* S I M T S */ new section
14:08:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154885&oldid=154884 * Cycwin * (+29) /* S I M T S */
14:13:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154886&oldid=154885 * Cycwin * (+84) /* S I M T S */
14:30:50 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154887&oldid=154788 * PrySigneToFry * (+41)
14:34:25 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154888&oldid=154887 * PrySigneToFry * (-1)
14:38:27 <esolangs> [[Brit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154889&oldid=154881 * Dmiz * (-60)
14:39:25 <esolangs> [[Brit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154890&oldid=154889 * Dmiz * (+86)
14:42:47 <esolangs> [[Moed]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154891 * Dhzb * (+1118) Created page with "{{WIP}} Moed (pronounced /mid/) is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:Dhzb]]. == Whitespace == Whitespace is ''sometimes'' significant. === Newlines === Newlines can be scoped inside of <code>{...}</code> curly braces which can be targeted by newline-imperae.
14:45:30 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154892&oldid=154853 * Dhzb * (+33)
14:48:25 <esolangs> [[Brit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154893&oldid=154890 * Dmiz * (+45)
14:49:08 <esolangs> [[Brit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154894&oldid=154893 * Dmiz * (-49)
15:13:58 <esolangs> [[2DSPC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154895 * Esdraslov * (+2292) Created page with "[[2DSPC]] is a 2D esolang by [[User:Esdraslov]] == commands == Whatever something is pushed to the stack, it's pushed to the start of it, so the stack functions as a queue. {| class="wikitable" !command !action |- |style="text-align:center"|<code><</code> |Changes th
15:16:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154896&oldid=154328 * Hotcrystal0 * (-243)
15:18:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154897&oldid=153763 * Hotcrystal0 * (+187) /* TBG-based additions to UserEdited */ new section
15:24:25 <esolangs> [[!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154898 * Esdraslov * (+286) Created page with "!!!!!111!!!!11111!!!!!!!11!!!111 == Commands == <code>!</code> does nothing <code>!</code> prints!!!!!!!!!!!!111! <code>!</code> is [[brainfuck]] [ and ] <code>1111</code> 1, just 1 == Examples == === !1111 !11111 === !1111 !11111 (1st April joke) [[
15:24:53 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154899&oldid=154891 * Dhzb * (+22)
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15:33:58 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154900&oldid=154899 * Dhzb * (+47)
15:38:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cellular automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154901 * Hotcrystal0 * (+278) Created page with "==Do cellular automata '''really''' count as esolangs?== For example, is [[CGoL]] really an esolang? Theres not really any output, unless you consider the next generation to be. ~~~~"
15:38:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154902&oldid=154901 * Hotcrystal0 * (-2)
15:40:37 <esolangs> [[Scratcholang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154903&oldid=147650 * Hotcrystal0 * (+5) word fix, also its intended to be linked to on Scratch so used a clean name for brainf
15:41:11 <esolangs> [[Scratch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154904&oldid=151657 * Hotcrystal0 * (+2)
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15:53:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154905&oldid=154902 * Corbin * (+482) /* Do cellular automata really count as esolangs? */ Yes.
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16:23:20 <esolangs> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154906&oldid=146197 * Corbin * (+600) Reframe popularity for the world outside GoL wiki: the most important CAs are in biology and physics.
16:24:04 <korvo> Maybe it's just me, but I don't give a fuck that Wolfram put a number on a particular automaton. I care a lot more about the fact that some particular sea snail happens to biologically implement that automaton.
16:26:33 <esolangs> [[Moed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154907&oldid=154900 * Dhzb * (+1466)
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16:48:28 <ais523> korvo: so the "any quiescent configuration should be equally valid" in the cellular automaton article is wrong – it would allow you to use a quiescent configuration that, e.g., encodes a halting oracle and use that to prove the cellular automaton uncomputable
16:49:10 <korvo> ais523: Which article, CA or GoL? The GoL article's freshly researched but the CA one was already like that when I got here.
16:49:42 <ais523> you were editing near it at the time – I'm not holding you responsible for it but thought you might have ideas on how to fix it
16:49:55 <korvo> Ah, okay. I'm afraid I don't know why it claims that, and it seems obviously wrong given that a Penrose tiling can carry a unary stream of (low-complexity) bits in its initial configuration.
16:50:51 <korvo> Hm, so how *should* it be fixed? Should we define the concept of agar?
16:52:10 <ais523> so this is awkward because a) it's impossible for the all-blank configuration to ever be TC if the CA is based on a regular tiling, b) for some CAs, periodic conditions may be more powerful than finitely initialised configurations
16:52:54 <ais523> the equivalent problem for Turing machines (defining which initializations logically "should" be allowed) is one that I tried to solve for many years and eventually gave up on
16:53:28 <korvo> Oh, and (c) a TC CA doesn't necessarily have universal construction in the sense of being able to instantiate an arbitrary pattern. I documented this for GoL and I'm still chewing through what it means for our definitions.
16:54:23 <ais523> I think that if you're treating a CA as though it were a programming language, there's no real conceptual issue with starting from a garden of eden or other nonconstructible state
16:54:34 <korvo> For TMs there's an easy convention that you may have seen before: point the set of tape symbols and set the starting tape to be constantly that point. Basically give it a natural zero value.
16:55:25 <korvo> Then the complexity of stashing a predefined tape into the input program is precisely the Kolmogorov complexity of that tape over TMs. (For TMs of a given state/symbol count, I think?)
16:56:27 <ais523> korvo: yes; that's the "blank tape" starting state for TMs
16:57:03 <ais523> but, a TM that uses that starting state can't be fully Turing-complete because it can only run one program
16:57:07 <korvo> ais523: Yeah. I was hoping that phrasing would somehow unlock an analogy for CAs, but I'm not quite seeing it.
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16:58:02 <ais523> so normally TM proofs use either "finitely initialized" (i.e. only finitely many cells are not the blank tape element) or "periodically initialized"
16:58:49 <ais523> or even "periodic, then finite, then periodic" (with the periodic elements stretching to infinity)
16:59:21 <korvo> Huh. Can't a UTM just take two arguments on two input tapes, which WLOG can be one input tape? Or is that too fancy?
16:59:28 <ais523> the rule 110 TCness proof uses a periodic-finite-periodic starting state, to implement cyclic tag – but in fact it implements sequential tag and the periodicity is used to create an infinite sequential tag program
16:59:39 <ais523> korvo: sure, but then the tape isn't blank
17:00:56 <ais523> anyway, this means that maybe the rule 110 TCness proof isn't actually proving the language does everything needed to be TC, as its control flow (the infinite loop around the program) appears to be inherited from the initial state rather than created within the language
17:01:44 <ais523> Wolfram's 2,3 Turing machine did basically the same thing but was much more controversial, because the control flow stolen from the initial condition needs two nested loops (with the outer loop determining how many iterations the inner loop has) and so the starting tape pattern isn't periodic
17:02:43 <ais523> I don't know how to resolve this disconnect, and all my recent TCness-of-Turing-machines work has been using finitely initialised tapes
17:02:50 <korvo> Well, yeah, because what we're actually saying is that -- up to a Kolmogorov constant -- if the tape starts blank, then the program can finitely initialize it, or it can periodically initialize it with a cap that indicates how to extend it indefinitely later.
17:03:35 <korvo> We're not allowed to initialize the tape with an arbitrary oracle. It has to be something that can conceptually be encoded into the program itself.
17:03:51 <ais523> korvo: right, but this often happens in the context of trying to find the "simplest universal Turing machine" or "simplest universal cellular automaton" and in that case the Kolmogorov constant really mattesr
17:04:46 <ais523> and there's also the issue that, e.g., at least one Turing-complete TM exists, likewise at least one Turing-complete CA exists, but I don't think that should allow you to start from arbitrary computable tape states
17:09:04 <korvo> Well, that's always fundamentally going to be a search for convoluted encodings, right? In the sense that a Turing tarpit isn't ever going to cede universality merely because you've prefixed an environment with some fixed bitstring.
17:10:18 <korvo> I think that when we're trying to put inequalities onto an uncomputable function, we're allowed to use computability in our favor. That seems to be where the interesting inequalities come from, at least.
17:11:19 <ais523> right, the "convoluted encodings" is the primary problem, especially as what you permit in terms of encoding probably depends on what computational class you're trying to demonstrate
17:11:49 <ais523> for TCness demonstrations I like "the encoder has to be primitive recursive" – that a) ensures finite output and b) prevents the encoder doing the calculation itself
17:12:40 <korvo> Sorry, I might be bleeding a bit; I'm reading a writeup about simulating neurons in agar, and they have the line, "a simulated [neuron] in a simulated [plate of] agar should behave the same way as a real [neuron] in a real [plate of] agar". A computable simulation shouldn't be an obstacle.
17:15:03 <korvo> Ah, okay, this might be a genuine philosophical branch. I prefer diagonalization!
17:16:55 <korvo> So that might be why I'm leaning towards a two-tape presentation and flexible inputs; I'm not comfortable with a TM that can't take (two) inputs.
17:18:37 <ais523> I/O isn't needed for Turing-completeness, so the second tape is only really needed for I/O-completeness proofs
17:19:00 <korvo> ...Now that I'm saying that... The complexity class P is defined via diagonalization. Time Hierarchy is used to expand linear-time to quadratic-time, to cubic-time, all the way up. Then it's used again to define PH. P is self-low and its reductions are also in P.
17:20:11 <korvo> It's the Church-Turing thesis that R is kind of like the ceiling of the same sort of hierarchy built on PR. (I call that hierarchy PRF but it doesn't have a common name.) Not self-low, so maybe computable reductions are the wrong choice.
17:20:32 <korvo> But PR reductions are still the base of that hierarchy, and so maybe they're the right choice. Maybe they're the natural choice, even.
17:22:16 <korvo> PR reductions are closed under composition, so R would be a category in the nice way, like P or NP under poly-time reductions.
17:25:22 <korvo> ais523: I think that this suggests that "simplest universal TM/CA" is underspecified, because it's not an isomorphism-invariant concept under this setup: precomposition with a PR reduction will increase Kolmogorov complexity, as you noted.
17:26:21 <ais523> korvo: I agree! that doesn't stop people trying to solve the problem, but (due to being underspecified) it does mean they can reasonably come up with different answers
17:26:55 <korvo> Or, as we say in category-theory land, they are doing "evil" maths~
17:27:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hotcrystal0 * moved [[Afefoj-Flak]] to [[o-Flak]]: closer approximation of real title
17:27:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hotcrystal0 * moved [[Talk:Afefoj-Flak]] to [[Talk:o-Flak]]: closer approximation of real title
17:27:59 <esolangs> [[Rotate-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154912&oldid=153674 * Hotcrystal0 * (+5) Changed redirect target from [[Afefoj-Flak]] to [[o-Flak]]
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17:29:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tautologylang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154913 * Rdococ * (+178) Created page with "Technically, every language fits the description for Tautologylang. Does that make them all dialects? ~~~~"
17:30:04 <ais523> so I like to work on precisely defined variations of the problem, such as "how many symbols do you need for a finitely initialised 2-state Turing machine to be universal, assuming that the halting behaviour needs to match and the initial state is generated as a computable function of the program to be run"
17:31:09 <ais523> my current record for that is 14, incidentally: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/265539
17:32:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154914&oldid=154636 * Hotcrystal0 * (+14)
17:32:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154915&oldid=154914 * Hotcrystal0 * (-1)
17:32:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154916&oldid=154915 * Hotcrystal0 * (-6)
17:33:18 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/CGoL+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154917&oldid=154296 * Hotcrystal0 * (+7)
17:34:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154918&oldid=154916 * Hotcrystal0 * (+59)
17:35:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154919&oldid=154918 * Hotcrystal0 * (+6)
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18:04:48 <esolangs> [[Topple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154920&oldid=154533 * H33T33 * (+232)
18:11:58 <b_jonas> “<ais523> for TCness demonstrations I like ‘the encoder has to be primitive recursive’” => ok, but you have to clarify what that means when you're initializing an infinite background pattern.
18:15:00 <ais523> b_jonas: blank (i.e. all the same symbol) everywhere outside the PR output
18:15:34 <ais523> periodic seems to give too much power, often by allowing you to implement sequential tag rather than cyclic tag
18:16:44 <b_jonas> for one that doesn't sound cheating, there's the Nopfunge thing that fills the quarter-plane periodically, with periodic near the edges too
18:20:34 <b_jonas> on a different note, Tom7 has revealed what geometry conjecture he was working on, and I very much understand its nerdsniping potential
18:32:14 <ais523> b_jonas: I see Nopfunge and its derivatives as more of a demonstration of *why* that should be considered cheating
18:32:28 <ais523> <^>v logically "shouldn't" be Turing-complete
18:40:26 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154921&oldid=154810 * Ractangle * (+22) no
18:43:42 <esolangs> [[5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154922&oldid=154862 * Ractangle * (-138) !!!!!
18:45:47 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154923&oldid=154429 * Hotcrystal0 * (+16) testing
18:45:57 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154924&oldid=154923 * Hotcrystal0 * (+77)
18:47:00 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154925&oldid=154924 * Hotcrystal0 * (-93)
19:55:28 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154926&oldid=154865 * Buckets * (+61)
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19:55:55 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154927&oldid=154748 * Buckets * (+60)
19:56:10 <esolangs> [[EIGHT EGGS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154928 * Buckets * (+1412) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=EIG<sup>HT <sup>EGG<sup>S</sup></sup></sup>}} EIG<sup>HT <sup>EGG<sup>S</sup></sup></sup> is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | EGG ,<sup>EGG</sup>, <sup><s
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20:14:59 <ais523> esolangs: who invented the cellular automaton?
20:15:40 <esolangs> ais523: The cellular automaton concept was initially explored by **Stanislav Ulam** and **John von Neumann** in the 1940s, with **Alvy Ray Smith** formalizing it in the 1960s. While Ulam and von Neumann laid the groundwork, Smith's work is credited with establishing the basic principles and results for working with cellular automata.
20:19:20 <ais523> I was expecting the answer to be a lot less accurate than that
20:19:37 <ais523> there are at least two plausible wrong answers
20:29:08 <b_jonas> John Conway because of GoL; Martin Gardner because he popularized all recrational mathematics and people are often confused and think he invented more of it than he did; Gauss because he's always a plausible answer for who invented something in mathematics
20:34:20 <b_jonas> Noam Chomskey can also be a suspect because of how he defined context-sensitive grammars
20:41:46 <ais523> huh, are context-sensitive grammars similar to cellular automata in any way?
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20:46:44 <b_jonas> ais523: store symbols from a finite alphabet per cell and each step modifies symbols locally.
20:47:10 <b_jonas> the difference is that cellular automata apply rules simultansouly everywhere, while context-sensitive grammar applies one rule somewhere locally at a time
20:48:01 <b_jonas> well, this is for one-dimensional cellular-automata, that's what context-sensitive grammars are similar to to be clear
20:48:18 <b_jonas> (also context-sensitive grammar are allowed to delete cells)
20:48:31 <ais523> this reminds me of how the "check if a context-free grammar is ambiguous" problem is TC – there's a pretty simple construction which emulates what's basically a Turing machine directly (except that instead of a BF-like tape, it has a finite-length tape but one symbol can be expanded into two or more to lengten the tape)
20:49:31 <ais523> the basic idea is that the potentially ambiguous input string (which the ambiguity checker is trying to find – you don't provide it) consist of a history of tapes, with a separator symbol between them, and every second element is written backwards
20:49:32 <esolangs> [[MetaInterpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154929&oldid=154864 * Buckets * (+204)
20:49:49 <esolangs> [[MetaInterpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154930&oldid=154929 * Buckets * (+1)
20:51:02 <ais523> one possible parse is just a set of rules that treat tape symbols in the first tape like opening brackets and tape symbols in the second tape like closing brackets, with a separator symbol at the innermost point – you just repeat that with separators between them, and handle changes to the TM state and tape by moving a tape-head symbol around (sort-of like how you prove Thue and Thupit)
20:51:10 <ais523> the other possible parse is the same but with the first tape hardcoded
20:51:57 <ais523> so you basically end up with the ambiguity checker running back and forth along the tape, changing the tape around the TM head as appropriate
20:56:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154931&oldid=154886 * I am islptng * (-132)
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20:59:55 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154932&oldid=154855 * I am islptng * (+86)
21:02:37 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154933&oldid=154927 * Buckets * (+131)
21:32:18 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154934&oldid=154933 * Buckets * (+72)
21:50:16 <korvo> ais523: The bot had good RAG because I beefed up the CA article and also the timeline/history of esolangs pages.
21:50:37 <korvo> Fairly certain I'm the only on-wiki fan of Alvy Ray. A pixel is *not* a little square!
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21:52:49 <korvo> esolangs: Who invented the Game of Life cellular automaton?
21:53:37 <esolangs> korvo: The Game of Life cellular automaton was invented by **John Horton Conway** sometime between 1968 and 1970.
22:01:38 <korvo> esolangs: Who invented the Ant cellular automaton?
22:01:51 <korvo> This might not hit without "Langton" but I'm foolishly optimistic.
22:03:13 <b_jonas> ah yes, he doesn't fall into the same trap as I just did. there are two mathematicians called John Conway.
22:03:21 <esolangs> korvo: The Ant cellular automaton was invented by an anonymous individual.
22:09:59 <korvo> esolangs: Who invented the cellular automaton Langton's Ant?
22:11:11 <korvo> Also Melvin Conway, who wrote a very important paper around 1967 called "How do Committees Invent?" Famous paper that almost nobody actually reads or understands.
22:11:43 <esolangs> korvo: Langton's Ant was invented by Chris Langton in 1986.
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00:16:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154935&oldid=154931 * I am islptng * (+263) /* I'm planning the support of strings. Ideas anyone? */ new section
00:30:11 <b_jonas> I have a stupid esoteric idea. So you know how some websites try to display an email address in a captcha-like way where legitimate users can read it but spammers can't easily harvest many email addresses cheaply. This doesn't really work, because each email address is worth enough for a speedrun that they'll decode it unless you make the decoding so hard that legitimate users who want to email you get
00:30:17 <b_jonas> annoyed, and it gets especially annoying on websites that think any occurrence of an @ sign must be an email address that has to be protected this way.
00:33:02 <b_jonas> But suppose you ignore those problems and you want to protect an email address anyway. I think a theoretically nice way to protect it is using a client-side script that computes a password hash to get a symmetric key that it then uses to decode the encrypted email address. The password hash is designed so that a spammer can't compute many of them cheaply, so this is proof of work. However, the decoding
00:33:08 <b_jonas> works purely on client side even if you don't allow to send any information from back to the server, so if a user is worried that the client-side script is just mining bitcoins for the server, they can easily verify that this isn't the case.
00:33:31 <b_jonas> This is still mostly useless because it's just a better way to do something that's mostly useless anyway.
00:49:52 <b_jonas> In fact this might be worse than average in practice (even if not in theory) because the spammers have access to bigger botnets of compromised computers to compute those password hashes on
00:54:15 <b_jonas> also although the legitimate user can in theory compute the hash without leaking back any information to the server, in practice that's almost impossible and the server can likely still hide their best effort bitcoin mining operation behind this without the user noticing easily
01:11:17 <zzo38> An alternative would be to just describe it in the text, it works without a script and won't hide something (since it is being handled manually, it wouldn't hide homoglyphs either).
01:14:46 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154936&oldid=154932 * I am islptng * (+361)
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03:50:23 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154937&oldid=154936 * I am islptng * (-58)
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04:04:04 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154938&oldid=154937 * I am islptng * (-33) /* Implementation */
04:04:33 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154939&oldid=154938 * I am islptng * (+50) /* Implementation */
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04:57:25 <zzo38> Would you be interested with a pokemon battle simulator implemented in C with a C API? I think that I would be, although I would want some help to do it. I have some ideas but would still need help with some stuff. (For one thing, if the API is done entirely wrong then it will have to be redone, and that won't do very well)
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05:06:53 <ais523> b_jonas: for some sites, you can just require logging in to see the email address
05:06:58 <ais523> but I guess that's less esoteric
05:07:10 * ais523 starts wondering what an esoteric version of that would look like
05:13:40 <zzo38> Or, requiring to use telnet or something like that
05:52:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TureGPT * New user account
05:57:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154940&oldid=154852 * TureGPT * (+167) /* Introductions */
06:01:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154941&oldid=154940 * TureGPT * (-14)
06:05:46 <esolangs> [[By+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154942&oldid=138817 * TureGPT * (+74) /* Commands */
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06:39:11 <esolangs> [[By+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154943&oldid=154942 * TureGPT * (+507) /* Example programs */
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06:39:45 <esolangs> [[By+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154944&oldid=154943 * TureGPT * (+7) /* Commands */
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06:42:04 <esolangs> [[User:TureGPT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154945 * TureGPT * (+83) Created page with "Haii! Me and my friend Raff made an esolang called [[by+]]. Thats.. about it lol :p"
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07:31:46 <esolangs> [[User:JIT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154946&oldid=154555 * JIT * (+29)
07:32:20 <esolangs> [[MetaInterpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154947&oldid=154930 * JIT * (+2)
07:48:59 <esolangs> [[User:JIT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154948&oldid=154946 * JIT * (+3468)
07:52:24 <esolangs> [[EIGHT EGGS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154949&oldid=154928 * JIT * (+1)
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08:08:39 <lisbeths> korvo: i've given up on writing applications
08:09:15 <lisbeths> writing applications with user interfaces has become so far removed from what coding is actually about
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09:00:28 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154950&oldid=154888 * I am islptng * (+1782)
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10:33:29 <esolangs> [[Ifle-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154951&oldid=154867 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+2)
10:45:38 <lisbeths> I have this idea for a dwarf fortress style game in the Linux terminal
10:45:48 <lisbeths> there are these little creatures that live in your filesystem
10:46:03 <lisbeths> such as goblins, boars, wizards, etcetera
10:46:11 <lisbeths> they wander through your filesystem battling and reproducing
10:46:37 <lisbeths> their reproduction cycle is limited by the amount of food you give them capping their population size
10:50:38 <esolangs> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154952&oldid=141656 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+464)
10:51:02 <esolangs> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154953&oldid=154952 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-464) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/154952|154952]] by [[Special:Contributions/JHSHernandez-ZBH|JHSHernandez-ZBH]] ([[User talk:JHSHernandez-ZBH|talk]])
10:52:56 <esolangs> [[One-Instruction Cyclic Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154954&oldid=138946 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+20) Maybe
10:58:23 <esolangs> [[Ifle-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154955&oldid=154951 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+39)
11:07:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unlambda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154956&oldid=139064 * Blashyrkh * (+177)
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11:24:16 <esolangs> [[User:GreenThePear/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154957&oldid=154628 * GreenThePear * (+1650) Directions
11:50:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RayhanEsolang * New user account
11:52:17 <esolangs> [[Moed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154958&oldid=154907 * Dhzb * (+41) /* Dexterimperae */
12:02:03 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/CGoL+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154959&oldid=154917 * Hotcrystal0 * (-7)
12:02:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154960&oldid=154486 * Hotcrystal0 * (+53) /* CGoL+ */ new section
12:59:59 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154961&oldid=154958 * Dhzb * (+1)
13:00:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:MSFE++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154962 * Cycwin * (+41) Created page with "Can anyone help me to know if it is TC..."
13:04:03 <esolangs> [[Moed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154963&oldid=154961 * Dhzb * (+123)
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15:08:45 <esolangs> [[Moed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154966&oldid=154965 * Dhzb * (+382)
15:29:29 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154967&oldid=154966 * Dhzb * (+7)
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15:33:49 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154968&oldid=154841 * Dhzb * (+11)
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16:41:41 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154969&oldid=154967 * Dhzb * (-4)
16:43:58 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154970&oldid=154969 * Dhzb * (+114)
17:09:54 <esolangs> [[Moed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154971&oldid=154970 * Dhzb * (+1518) Complete the lists
17:30:34 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154972&oldid=154971 * Dhzb * (+12)
17:41:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154973&oldid=154926 * Dhzb * (+11) /* M */
17:48:11 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154974&oldid=150839 * Corbin * (+907) /* SKI calculus */ Spell out completeness. Anybody know who proved these?
17:50:55 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154975 * Dhzb * (+529) Created page with "== [[Hello world]] == (&Hello, world!)@ ("Hello, world!)>{=@ `,}= < == [[Truth machine]] == =_={@.}#` :.= == [[Cat]] == =@&`, == String sum == >&=`|\=+ =`<$.@ == Display color == This program displays a color using a string sum of the strings "red", "green", an
17:58:22 <esolangs> [[Moed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154976&oldid=154972 * Dhzb * (-524) /* Examples */
18:02:32 <esolangs> [[Unlambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154977&oldid=150103 * Corbin * (+419) Infobox proglang, fix opening sentence, give example of syntax, sketch TC proof via LC.
18:04:45 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154978&oldid=154976 * Dhzb * (+19) /* Implementation */
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18:07:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:S and K Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154979&oldid=35769 * Corbin * (+478)
18:15:21 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154980&oldid=154978 * Dhzb * (+124) /* Implementation */
18:37:29 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154981&oldid=154980 * Dhzb * (-8)
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18:45:27 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154982&oldid=122732 * Corbin * (+507) Cleanup intro, fix external links, do some NPOV, match style on other concept articles.
19:29:24 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154983&oldid=154975 * Dhzb * (+724)
19:31:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154984&oldid=154973 * Buckets * (+11)
19:32:27 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154985&oldid=154934 * Buckets * (+10)
19:32:39 <esolangs> [[Ebur]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=154986 * Buckets * (+972) Created page with "Ebur is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. There is a restriction Where The Length per Line is Equsl to the Line number + 1. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | -m- || The variable Name m. |- | /{n} || Name A variable
19:36:49 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154987&oldid=154984 * Ractangle * (-22) finish your language and then put it here
19:41:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154988&oldid=154987 * Ractangle * (+22) oops removed something
19:43:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154989&oldid=154988 * Ractangle * (-11)
19:44:10 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154990&oldid=154983 * Ractangle * (+14)
19:44:11 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154991&oldid=154968 * Dhzb * (-11)
19:51:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154992&oldid=154989 * Ractangle * (+11) nvm looks like it's done
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20:08:14 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154993&oldid=154982 * Corbin * (+2504) /* History */ Flesh out more history. There's still a narrative thread missing: *why* did the bubble burst?
20:10:39 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154994&oldid=154993 * Corbin * (+96) Cite that claim about Bhm.
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21:10:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:MSFE++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154995&oldid=154962 * I am islptng * (+574)
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21:12:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:MSFE++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154996&oldid=154995 * I am islptng * (+24)
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23:17:39 <esolangs> [[L-system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154997&oldid=154741 * Stkptr * (+3420) /* Computational class */
23:22:58 <esolangs> [[L-system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154998&oldid=154997 * Stkptr * (+419) /* Computational class */
23:23:20 <esolangs> [[L-system]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=154999&oldid=154998 * Stkptr * (+0) /* Computational class */
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23:29:03 <esolangs> [[L-system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155000&oldid=154999 * Stkptr * (+348) /* Computational class */
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00:41:43 <korvo> lisbeths: Yeah. I saw your message. I'm tired of writing UIs too.
00:41:51 <korvo> Frustrating that customers need UX or else we don't get paid.
00:42:12 <lisbeths> basically I've been imagining this dwarf fortress like game
00:42:18 <lisbeths> where these goblins live as files in your filesystem
00:42:32 <lisbeths> and they roam your filesystem hunting and eating boars and reproducing
00:57:49 <korvo> Maybe not something I would install.
02:08:34 <esolangs> [[User:Tpaefawzen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155001&oldid=154642 * Tpaefawzen * (+65) Previous accounts
02:47:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BigGreenHat * New user account
03:18:31 <zzo38> Is there software that can trace where a value that comes from input is eventually used in another program, to see how it affects certain outputs (e.g. to detect spyware and security issues)? Can such a thing ever effectively be made anyways?
03:27:00 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155002&oldid=154981 * Dhzb * (-143)
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03:54:25 <Sgeo> I just saw a definition of absolute value that allows for the absolute value to be imaginary.
03:54:31 <Sgeo> (For split-complex numbers).
03:54:47 <Sgeo> In high school I really wanted a way to have a negative absolute value.
03:55:10 <Sgeo> I.. guess split-complex absolute values don't quite fit but my jaw is still on the floor
04:31:23 <korvo> Good times. I didn't get split-complex numbers for a long time. I recently was shown that they are like the hyperbolic version of complex numbers, which is cool but confusing.
05:28:54 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155003&oldid=154990 * Dhzb * (+216)
05:29:59 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155004&oldid=155003 * Dhzb * (+12) /* Brainfuck */
05:48:42 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155005&oldid=155004 * Dhzb * (-6)
06:09:50 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155006&oldid=154939 * I am islptng * (+17)
06:36:10 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155007&oldid=155002 * Dhzb * (+77)
07:00:38 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155008&oldid=155006 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Implementation */
07:02:29 <esolangs> [[PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155009&oldid=155008 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Strings */ unmatched brakets!
07:04:46 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155010&oldid=151730 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Stuff to continue */
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07:24:04 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155011&oldid=155005 * Dhzb * (+56)
07:25:38 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155012&oldid=155007 * Dhzb * (+1)
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08:09:49 <esolangs> [[L-system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155013&oldid=155000 * Stkptr * (+579) /* Computational class */
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08:38:44 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155014&oldid=155011 * Dhzb * (+307)
08:39:30 <esolangs> [[Moed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155015&oldid=155012 * Dhzb * (+18) /* Future additions */
08:52:36 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155016&oldid=154148 * Dhzb * (+11) /* M */
09:34:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:Emel not making esolangs.jpg]]"
09:35:47 <esolangs> [[Queue-based esolang++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155018&oldid=154468 * Ractangle * (+51)
10:09:48 <esolangs> [[Ebur+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155019 * JIT * (+919) Created page with "Ebur+ is just [[Ebur]] but better* and also an esolang by [[User:JIT]]*, 2025 also pi words including 3 {| class="wikitable" |+ it starts at 0 |- ! commands !! 2 !! 0 !! 1 |- | r || rotate right by 1 || rotate right by 1 || rotate right by 1 |- | ab || a<sup>th</sup> charact
10:10:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155020&oldid=154992 * JIT * (+12)
10:11:07 <esolangs> [[Ebur]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155021&oldid=154986 * JIT * (+29)
10:11:36 <esolangs> [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155022&oldid=154830 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-3) /* See also */
11:04:04 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155023&oldid=154372 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+18) /* See also */
11:05:40 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Draft of EtPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155024&oldid=154675 * PrySigneToFry * (+347)
11:05:46 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155025&oldid=154991 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+50)
11:06:23 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155026&oldid=155025 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+43)
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11:35:52 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155027&oldid=154490 * PrySigneToFry * (+5)
11:38:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155028&oldid=153270 * PrySigneToFry * (+1036) /* Apollo(PSTF) */ new section
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11:50:54 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155029&oldid=154950 * PrySigneToFry * (+3237)
11:56:46 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155030&oldid=155029 * PrySigneToFry * (+135)
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13:43:12 <esolangs> [[By+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155031&oldid=154944 * TureGPT * (+2) /* Example programs */
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13:48:51 <esolangs> [[Brainknot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155032&oldid=154483 * Mahdoosh1 * (-3) optimized some code
13:51:48 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155033&oldid=155020 * Mahdoosh1 * (+16) Add my own language to the list
13:58:19 <esolangs> [[Brainknot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155034&oldid=155032 * Mahdoosh1 * (+25)
14:01:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155035&oldid=52436 * B jonas * (+169)
14:11:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:CAPI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155036&oldid=154495 * PrySigneToFry * (+874)
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14:20:03 <esolangs> [[Tskastic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=155037 * PrySigneToFry * (+2105) Created page with "Tskastic is an Esolang designed by PSTF, inspired from [[Thue]], [[Brainfuck 2.0]], [[SLet]], [[UserEdited]], [[EternalGolf]] and [[Emmental]]. The official pronounce of this language is /|stik/, but you can also pronounce with /tskstik/ if you can't pronounce a
14:25:58 <int-e> https://368chickens.com/ is a cute diversion
14:27:58 <fizzie> I thought that'd have something to do with the Intel 80386, but it didn't.
14:28:29 <int-e> yeah no clue why it's 368
14:29:02 <int-e> it could just track a highscore instead
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14:47:46 <wib_jonas> well if it's not connected to the intel x86 then 386 must refer to the number of members in the previous version of the parliament of Hungary from 1989 to 2014.
14:48:47 <wib_jonas> you can tell that there are no other significant things that 386 could reference because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_(number)#386 mentions none
14:49:00 <wib_jonas> there isn't even a full number article
14:51:11 <fizzie> To be clear, the game's number is also 368, not 386.
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15:20:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Apollo(PSTF)]]": typoed page title, has since been renamed to the correct name
15:20:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155038&oldid=155028 * Ais523 * (+128) /* Apollo(PSTF) */ deleted
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15:21:34 <ais523> <zzo38> Is there software that can trace where a value that comes from input is eventually used in another program, to see how it affects certain outputs (e.g. to detect spyware and security issues)? Can such a thing ever effectively be made anyways? ← there are programming languages designed to do that, normally developed for AI/evolutionary programming techniques
15:22:28 <ais523> the idea is that the language records the output effect of each input, and is able to reverse it, so that, e.g., it is possible to determine what changes to the inputs would increase or decrease a particular output; this is known as "differentiable" programming/computing
15:22:49 <ais523> but, it's only really designed for programs which implement a continuous numerical function, not for general-purpose programmingg
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16:03:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:CAPI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155039&oldid=155036 * Hotcrystal0 * (+123)
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18:38:27 <esolangs> [[Deskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155040&oldid=82201 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+342) Supplemented a rule whose conjencture emerges from the two extant examples' divergent output behaviors, added titles to the example programs, introduced a hyperlink to my implementation on GitHub, and altered the Unimplemented tag to Implemented.
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20:15:28 <esolangs> [[User:GreenThePear/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155041&oldid=154957 * GreenThePear * (-8) i don't remember
20:17:16 <esolangs> [[Larry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155042&oldid=139009 * ArsenicCatnip * (+2153) added another implementation. Still gotta fix the intro
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22:04:28 <esolangs> [[Arrowey]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155043&oldid=131443 * Lampe2020 * (+199) /* Description */
22:05:51 <esolangs> [[Arrowey]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155044&oldid=155043 * Lampe2020 * (+1) /* Additional stuff */
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01:38:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:PAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=155045&oldid=154935 * I am islptng * (+65) /* RACTANGLE!TELL ME WHAT YOU DID WITH MY INTERPRETER */ new section
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