[...]
20:42:27 <ais523> actually I guess 65535 may be an invalid value, as it's the return value on error from many uid/gid functions (well, -1 but it's traditionally a 16-bit return)
20:42:34 <ais523> that would explain why 65534 was used as the sentinel
20:44:32 <esolangs> [[Varia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152176&oldid=152170 * * (+124)
20:54:47 <esolangs> [[XXXoYYY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152177 * Dtp09 * (+5449) page creation
20:55:20 <esolangs> [[User:Dtp09]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152178&oldid=128625 * Dtp09 * (+14) /* esolangs i made */
20:56:57 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152179&oldid=152117 * Buckets * (+22)
20:57:28 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152180&oldid=152179 * Buckets * (-22)
21:02:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: in 7z not directly. 7z can rename files in an existing archive, and you can give multiple pairs of names to rename. but I don't think it supports adding files with a different name in one pass.
21:07:04 <b_jonas> wait, a 16-bit return? I'll have to look this up, I assumed the user ID was always given as an int in the kernel interfaces, it's just that its value was restricted to 16 bits on old systems and that's what the file system represented
21:11:17 <ais523> b_jonas: I kind-of assumed that int was 16-bit at the time
21:11:20 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; >uid_size.c echo $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <unistd.h>\n#include <sys/types.h>\n''int main(int ac, char *av[]) { printf("sizeof=%d, signed=%d,\n", (int)sizeof(uid_t), (int)(uid_t)-1); return 0; }'; gcc -Wall -O -o uid_size uid_size.c; ./uid_size
21:11:22 <ais523> but I guess it was 32 in early UNIX
21:11:39 <b_jonas> oh, it's possible that it was 16-bit in very early unix, sure
21:20:28 <ais523> didn't BCPL use 32 bits for everything? although Unix may have been written in C from the start
21:26:23 <ais523> now I'm a) questioning myself but b) wondering why C even allows 16-bit int – if Unix didn't use 16-bit int early on then I'd expect C to require it as 32-bit
21:27:04 <ais523> although it was a very long time after C was created before systems with short, int, and long all different became commonplace (and long is still 32 bits on Windows!)
21:27:08 <b_jonas> I'm hazy about ancient unix history. as far as I understand, unix was originally written in a machine language, then later rewritten into C. that was pre-ANSI C so function arguments and return values were promoted to at least int sized, but I think that was 16-bit int.
21:27:26 <ais523> so it could have been that int was always ambiguous, and short and long disambiguated
21:28:14 <ais523> "In UNIX V6 the getuid() call returned (euid << 8) + uid." – lots of manual pages
21:28:52 <ais523> getuid(2) says that on my current computer
21:29:32 <b_jonas> I think C was designed to be able to work on contemporary machines of different architecutres from the start, which is why short and int were separate types even if they're normally both 16 bits wide.
21:30:32 <ais523> aha – BCPL had all types the same width, but that was originally 16-bit
21:30:42 <ais523> meaning that you were limited to 64KiB of memory because pointers were 16-bit too
21:31:30 <ais523> because if everything is 16-bit the pointers only need 16-bit of granularity
21:33:03 <b_jonas> I assume that's just for data, and code can be in a separate area
21:35:06 <ais523> I think that view is compatible with how BCPL was defined
21:35:12 <ais523> although I'm not sure whether or not it did that in practice
21:35:36 <ais523> C for 16-bit x86 works similarly, a pointer is treated as a pointer to code or data depending on what you do with it
21:38:21 <ais523> x86 supports ds != ss, but I'm not sure typical C implementations handle that combination
21:39:29 <ais523> you could use a separate spill stack (in ss) and automatic variable stack (in ds), but that means two stack pointers so you're tying up one extra register, and that's fairly painful on 16-bit x86 which doesn't have very many of them
21:39:32 <b_jonas> Borland C supports like six or seven different "memory models" for x86_16 DOS that differ in these details,
21:39:46 <ais523> I'm only aware of four
21:40:16 <b_jonas> and it also lets you override this locally by declaring a pointer as near or far or huge or segment, and has a nonstandard operator spelled :> for combining a segment with a near pointer to get a far pointer
21:40:37 <ais523> 16-bit versus 32-bit for code pointer and for data pointer (4 combinations), plus if they're both 32-bit, whether objects are allowed to cross 16-bit boundaries or not
21:41:16 <ais523> maybe you can do that even if the code pointers are 16-bit, that would make 6 combinations
21:41:27 <ais523> but yes, there are near/far/huge overrides
21:41:53 <ais523> oh, I remembered the extra one! it's 16-bit code and 16-bit data in the same segment
21:41:56 <b_jonas> no, I think the extra combination is about which segments are equal when everything is 16-bit
21:43:18 <ais523> hmm, my client has timestamped my "oh," message as 21:42 and your "no," message as 21:41, but displayed my message before yours causing the timestamps to be out of order (and the logs agree that my message was first)
21:43:29 <ais523> I'm assuming this is some sort of timestamping bug
22:01:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152181&oldid=152102 * Hotcrystal0 * (+178)
22:03:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152182&oldid=152077 * Hotcrystal0 * (+13)
22:03:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152183&oldid=152182 * Hotcrystal0 * (-13)
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22:29:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152185&oldid=152134 * H33T33 * (+13)
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23:09:04 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152186&oldid=152118 * Buckets * (+17)
23:09:16 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152187&oldid=152185 * Buckets * (+18)
23:10:03 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152188 * Buckets * (+705) Created page with " (Not .) Is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions |- | || +3. |- | . || -3 |- | (Line feed) || Prints the current number in ASCII. |- | || Turn to the next page. |- | || Turn to the Previous page
23:10:25 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152189&oldid=152186 * Buckets * (+0)
23:54:59 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152190&oldid=152174 * Lykaina * (+391) Updated to current.
00:39:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152191&oldid=152181 * I am islptng * (+571) /* How to make lowercase */
00:42:54 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152192&oldid=152190 * Lykaina * (+1346) Added to beginning.
00:49:21 <Lykaina> How does https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth look so far?
00:51:00 <esolangs> [[H33T33]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152193 * H33T33 * (+301) Created page with "=[[User:H33T33]]= I am absolutely obsessed with programming, specifically game development. Though I dabble in other things, like esolang development. ==Experience== * Python * C * Java * A handful of other smaller languages I can't be bothered to list right now ==Langua
00:51:23 <esolangs> [[H33T33]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152194&oldid=152193 * H33T33 * (-18)
00:54:02 <esolangs> [[H33T33]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152195&oldid=152194 * H33T33 * (-283) Blanked the page
00:55:09 <esolangs> [[User:H33T33]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152196 * H33T33 * (+283) Created page with "I am absolutely obsessed with programming, specifically game development. Though I dabble in other things, like esolang development. ==Experience== * Python * C * Java * A handful of other smaller languages I can't be bothered to list right now ==Languages Developed
00:55:59 <esolangs> [[Topple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152197&oldid=151996 * H33T33 * (-25)
01:00:09 <esolangs> [[Topple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152198&oldid=152197 * H33T33 * (-22)
01:03:18 <Lykaina> Afth is supposed to mean "Something from the Aft" and is meant as a euphemism for "Solid Bodily Excrement"
01:04:28 <Lykaina> also, the opposite of Forth
01:11:18 <korvo> Lykaina: Do you have a second stack?
01:13:46 <korvo> Well, what do you think of Turing-completeness? A one-stack pushdown automaton can't simulate a Turing machine.
01:14:38 <korvo> There's good arguments both ways. Cammy can be simulated by a one-stack pushdown automaton, but its computational class is absurdly large for something not TC.
01:15:33 <korvo> But yeah, the typical Forth has two stacks. There's a call-return stack, sometimes just called the R stack, and words like >r and r> for moving to/from it.
01:16:57 <korvo> Hm, that might work. Normally we think of the second stack as being indefinite in size, while only finitely many variables are possible. But that's merely a convention because we want to map variables to registers in some traditions; obviously the number of variables is very large and also the size of the stack is limited.
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01:17:38 <korvo> No worries! Most Forth users don't have to worry about the second stack because they have pick-and-roll functionality: there are insanely powerful words like pick or roll which allow the user to shuffle the entire stack.
01:18:32 <korvo> But in this channel you'll find lots of folks who are either using ANS FORTH for some reason, or are writing Forth for embedded platforms where roll'ing the stack would be too expensive to offer as a feature.
01:18:40 <esolangs> [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152199&oldid=140997 * Anthonykozar * (+7) /* Constructing Conditionals */ Clarifying some sentences.
01:19:34 <Lykaina> i'll change what's r,R means and put the original meaning on d,D
01:20:17 <Lykaina> make r,R the access to the R stack
01:20:25 <korvo> Oh, don't worry about keeping with tradition. Forth calls the second stack R because it's used for return addresses; it's the standard call stack in C-style memory layouts.
01:20:51 <korvo> You could just as well call it H since it's often a hardware-supported stack, or C because it's used for calls (or used like in C), etc.
01:21:27 <Lykaina> i'll have to make my spreadsheet two pages then...
01:23:35 <korvo> Also, you can choose to make the second stack safe! In a typical ANS FORTH, the user has to assume that they do not control the second stack; the runtime will also push and pop stuff to it, and there are rules about when it's safe to use.
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01:28:56 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152200&oldid=152192 * Lykaina * (+94) /* Core Instructions */ adding c and C.
01:45:28 <Lykaina> any other things i'm missing?
01:45:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:MoreMathRPN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152201&oldid=151264 * I am islptng * (+610) /* Questions */
01:47:21 <Lykaina> oh...have to add sample var and word declarations
01:55:33 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152202&oldid=152200 * Lykaina * (+205) /* Syntax */
02:17:46 <Lykaina> there are only 94^2 possible single-cell variables
02:20:03 <Lykaina> and 52*94^2 possible words
02:29:33 <Lykaina> the amount of non-space printable ascii chars is 94. 26*94+26*94^2+26*94^3+26*94^4 is still less than 2^31
02:32:37 <Lykaina> means, in a future version, i can have 2-5 char word names and 1-4 char var names
02:34:24 <Lykaina> better make a quick change to support this future
02:34:59 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152203&oldid=152202 * Lykaina * (+8) /* Words */
02:35:47 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152204&oldid=152203 * Lykaina * (-4) /* Initial Letters Table */
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04:35:10 <esolangs> [[User:Anthonykozar/Notes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152205&oldid=152135 * Anthonykozar * (+125) Added Burro and Cabra.
05:17:53 <Lykaina> made the change to 2-5 char word names and 1-4 char var names
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05:27:34 <safinaskar> hi. i want to add austral (it is non-esoteric, but little known programming lanuage) to some online playground. is there some online playground, such that i can very easily add language to it?
05:28:06 <safinaskar> i looked at godbolt, but it requires to write syntax for monaco editor first, i don't want to do this
05:28:39 <safinaskar> i also looked at tio.run , but it seems admin disappeared long time ago and adding new languages is not possible
05:29:20 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152206&oldid=152204 * Lykaina * (+7) Updated to current.
05:31:43 <Lykaina> Afth is only partly esoteric at this point.
05:34:15 <Lykaina> The part that, in my mind, qualifies it as esoteric is the Core Instructions
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05:54:10 <Lykaina> lisbeths: How does https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth look so far?
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06:42:37 <lisbeths> Lykaina: it looks like a pretty normal forth upon brief glance
06:42:51 <lisbeths> Lykaina: what are your goals with it?
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08:04:55 <b_jonas> safinaskar: maybe look at https://tio.run/ , it supports tons of languages, esoteric and not
08:05:09 <b_jonas> oh, you already looked at it
08:31:04 <b_jonas> Lykaina: I wouldn't bother with a second stack. Just stacks without random access are inconvenient to use. If you want to be minimalist but powerful I'd just add a random-access data array of words outside the stack, and add three primitives: load word from address, store word to address, and sbrk.
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08:36:21 <b_jonas> I think forths traditionally have something like that, with a funny naming confusion because they call the random-access load primitive @ and the random-access store primitive ! whereas ML uses ! for random-access load
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09:38:29 <lisbeths> I am really curious about forths that use registers
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10:43:46 <wib_jonas> lisbeth: I think some forths have a few global variables to simplify the syntax of simple counter for-loops, so there's a loop builtin that puts the count in one global variable and maybe another that puts them in a second global variable. does that count as registers? alternately GML has lambda calculus style lexically local variables, which you
10:43:46 <wib_jonas> could implement with a register stack (separate from the forth/postscript data stack), does that count?
10:44:13 <wib_jonas> hmm no, you couldn't implement it with a register stack because there are first-class closures
10:44:28 <wib_jonas> but you could count those locals as registers
10:48:58 <wib_jonas> I guess you could have local variables with closures that are closed by reference to the stack only so they can't be called after the parent stack frame ends, and then you could implement these as register stack. I am considering that for the columns esolang, though I haven't really figured out how functions and control structures should work so it
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13:07:52 <AnthonyKozar> RFC: SCOOP (Single-Character Object-Oriented Programming) is a pure, classless, object-oriented esolang using the full Unicode character set where all commands and identifiers/names are a single character.
13:09:50 <AnthonyKozar> Hello! I recently added my new esolang, SCOOP, to the wiki and I am looking for some feedback if anyone has the interest/time to take a look.
13:13:32 <AnthonyKozar> I'm interested to know if there are any ambiguities or problems with the syntax or semantics. General feedback is also appreciated. Thanks! :)
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13:32:45 <esolangs> [[Braces]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152207&oldid=112463 * Krolkrol * (+1482)
13:34:32 <esolangs> [[Braces]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152208&oldid=152207 * Krolkrol * (+27)
13:35:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152209&oldid=152113 * PrySigneToFry * (+49)
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16:04:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * C++DSUCKER * New user account
16:04:34 <Lykaina> changing c,C to t,T and using b,B,c,C,d,D for a large random-access array and its pointer in next edit
16:08:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152210&oldid=152167 * C++DSUCKER * (+89) /* Introductions */
16:11:28 <Lykaina> so i have e,E available for the array as well if needed
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16:27:06 <APic> Celebrate Chaoflux! Hail Diskordiæ! 😇
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16:29:38 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152211&oldid=152206 * Lykaina * (+22) freeing up core instruction letters c,C,e,E and reassigning them to t,T,m,M.
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16:39:09 <wib_jonas> AnthonyKozar: re SCOOP this seems interesting and I don't yet understand the consequences of all this specification. First question, I don't understand the description of the syntax.
16:39:13 <wib_jonas> In particular, if you have an object definition strating with colon, then the colon is followed by a name, then some items in between, and finally there's one of □#" at the end. Of the following, what items can be in between?
16:39:18 <wib_jonas> (A) Member initializers, which is just an ordinary character that means to copy the member from the parent object to this object. (B) Method definitions. (C) Nested object definitions starting with colon (where the nested object initializes a member in the parent object). (D) Assignment statements.
16:39:23 <wib_jonas> (E) Method call statements. (F) Assignment statements. (G) Ordinary characters that become a character of the string if this defines a string object, or give the numeric value if this is a number object.
16:39:28 <wib_jonas> How do you disambiguate between A and G? Also which of A to G can you have in the body of a method definition?
16:39:33 <wib_jonas> Second question, do I understand it right that there's always just the members of one object in scope, so in any statement like ←x or ←x.ym or ←x▷ymz or ⏎x , x and y and z are members in that one object but m isn't, and in a nested :xy□ definition too x will be created as a member named x in that one object and y will be copied from the
16:40:11 <wib_jonas> And you can't directly access values from the parent object, except through an (A) style member initializer, right?
16:43:05 <wib_jonas> Lykaina: what do those letters mean, the uppercase and the lowercase?
16:44:26 <Lykaina> they are the chars assigned to "Core Instructions".
16:45:06 <Lykaina> look at table in wiki page
16:49:10 <wib_jonas> Lykiana: I don't see b,B,c,C,d,D there\
16:49:39 <Lykaina> i haven't programmed them yet
16:50:19 <esolangs> [[Bitchanger Busy beaver]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152212 * C++DSUCKER * (+646) Created page with "== Confirmed optimal == These are confirmed to be the best for lengths 1-15 {| class="wikitable" |- ! length !! Time !! Program |- | 1 || 1 || } |- | 2 || 2 || }} |- | 3 || 3 || }}} |- | 4 || 4 || }}}} |- | 5 || 5 || }}}}} |- | 6 || 8 || }}<[<] |- | 7
16:54:59 <Lykaina> b,B,c,C,d,D,e,E are currently reserved for what i am currently programming, the array of 16384 signed 32-bit ints.
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18:07:59 <AnthonyKozar> wib_jonas: Thanks very much for taking a look at SCOOP. Sounds like I need to clarify some of my descriptions and/or give more detailed examples.
18:12:26 <korvo> AnthonyKozar: I have many thoughts, having implemented similar languages. For starters, do you have a concept of verb or selector? In languages like Smalltalk, Self, Python, Ruby, or E, it is possible for an object to define a default behavior for messages when none of its selectors/verbs match.
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18:14:24 <korvo> Along similar lines, is there a default verb/selector which indicates a function-like behavior? For example, in Python, that attribute is ".__call__"; in E, it's the verb "run".
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18:32:15 <AnthonyKozar> Re: your first question, which items can come between the identifier and the final delimiter (the "content") depends upon the delimiter. If the delimiter is □, then only a list of object members (your A) can be in the content. If the delimiter is " or #, then only G. If the delimiter is ƒ, 𝑓, or ✆, then the content is B (a method or
18:32:16 <AnthonyKozar> callback definition) which can include any combination of (B) (nested) Method definitions. (C) Nested object definitions starting with colon (but they do not define an object immediately!). (D) Assignment statements, (E) Method call statements, or member access statements. I.e. the content of a method definition is just a code string but the
18:32:16 <AnthonyKozar> instructions in the definition are not evaluated (and don't have to be parsed completely) until the method is called.
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19:02:34 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152213&oldid=152211 * Lykaina * (+843) /* Core Instructions */ adding b,B,c,C,d,D,e,E
19:08:02 <b_jonas> Lykaina: you have looked at the classic languages Mouse and FALSE before inventing a new language like this, right?
19:08:25 <b_jonas> though if you'll build a fungeoid over this later then that doesn't matter
19:09:00 <b_jonas> but it doesn't look like you want a fungeoid, looks like you want a Forth-like
19:10:52 <Lykaina> i may take elements from afth and make a fungeoid
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19:21:13 <Lykaina> though an experiment with a private fork of fungeball's code inspired the cration of afth.
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19:27:02 <Lykaina> since befunge-93 is inspired by brainfuck and FALSE, it's possible that the similarities between afth and FALSE (which i know nothing about) are due to that.
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20:04:32 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152214&oldid=152180 * Buckets * (+1789)
20:21:36 <esolangs> [[FOSMOL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152215 * Aadenboy * (+3915) Created page with "'''FOSMOL''' (an acronym that stands for Fold Operator Start Map Operator List) is a [[:Category:Total|total]] esolang created by [[User:Aadenboy]]. == Values == FOSMOL operates on lists of numbers. These lists can be assigned to a variable, which becomes immutable imm
20:22:03 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152216&oldid=152114 * Aadenboy * (+72) /* who. who are you */ add [[FOSMOL]]
20:22:31 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152217&oldid=152187 * Aadenboy * (+13) /* F */ add FOSMOL
20:25:09 <esolangs> [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152218&oldid=152164 * Hotcrystal0 * (+252)
20:28:18 <esolangs> [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152219&oldid=152218 * Hotcrystal0 * (-9)
20:29:31 <esolangs> [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152220&oldid=152219 * Hotcrystal0 * (-5)
20:40:31 <Lykaina> just found a bug in the code that prevented stack underruns
20:41:11 <Lykaina> it's a holdover from when the code was a befunge interpreter
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20:58:26 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152221&oldid=152213 * Lykaina * (+82) Adding link to repository.
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21:12:01 <AnthonyKozar> wib_jonas: You asked "How do you disambiguate between A and G?" The delimiter at the end of a definition is the only (reliable) way to distinguish between the five types of definitions. So, when a SCOOP parser finds a colon followed by an identifier, it should probably just read in characters until it finds a matching delimiter. Then it can
21:12:01 <AnthonyKozar> decide how to interpret the content string. (The parser does need to pay attention to any colons in the content string and match each colon with a delimiter until it finds the delimiter that matches the first colon).
21:16:03 <b_jonas> AnthonyKozar: so if you want to have a number or string with custom members in it, you have to use the extend method?
21:16:30 <b_jonas> I guess that will work, you rarely want such a thing anyway
21:16:48 <b_jonas> though I'm not sure what happens if you try to extend a string with a number or a number with a string
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21:25:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Intcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152222 * ApisNecros * (+567) Create page with a question
21:25:55 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152223&oldid=152189 * Buckets * (+15)
21:26:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152224&oldid=152217 * Buckets * (+16)
21:26:30 <esolangs> [[Beep Boop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152225 * Buckets * (+824) Created page with "Beep Boop is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. (The output Signal is Automatically Off.) {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions |- | Beep || Change To A 20 Hz signal. |- | Boop || change to A 200 Hz signal. |- | - || Change
21:35:42 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152226&oldid=152221 * Lykaina * (+82) /* Syntax */ Added mention of arrays.
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22:22:45 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152227&oldid=152226 * Lykaina * (+155) Added Infobox
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22:27:35 <esolangs> [[FOSMOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152228&oldid=152215 * Aadenboy * (+106) /* Macros */
22:28:38 <esolangs> [[FOSMOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152229&oldid=152228 * Aadenboy * (+6) /* Mapping */
22:36:14 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152230&oldid=152227 * Lykaina * (+38) /* Syntax */ Rephrased "Command Triplets" as "Command Groups"
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22:53:38 <AnthonyKozar> korvo: Thanks for your thoughts and questions! SCOOP does not have an explicit concept of verbs or selectors. Other than having multi-word selectors (like "randomFrom:To:"), is the concept much different from method names/identifiers like in Java or C++? In the current draft of SCOOP, if an object receives a message that doesn't match any
22:53:39 <AnthonyKozar> of its methods, that is a runtime error. And since SCOOP is an esolang, I haven't provided any way to recover from that or similar errors.
22:56:00 <esolangs> [[Compass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152231&oldid=151782 * Ractangle * (-11) /* Hello, world! */
22:57:02 <esolangs> [[Compass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152232&oldid=152231 * Ractangle * (-44) /* Empty Program */
22:57:31 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152233&oldid=152230 * Lykaina * (-6) /* Initial Letters Table */ updated to current
22:57:36 <esolangs> [[Compass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152234&oldid=152232 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Empty Program */
22:58:25 <b_jonas> AnthonyKozar: are you planning to write a reference interpreter for SCOOP, and longer programs that create many objects programmatically?
22:59:09 <esolangs> [[Compass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152235&oldid=152234 * Ractangle * (-83) /* Examples */
22:59:54 <b_jonas> it looks like you have an interesting enough language that it might be worth
23:00:26 <AnthonyKozar> Currently, SCOOP does not have a "default verb/selector [indicating] function-like behavior." Method objects have a property called ⌘ that can be used to retrieve their code string but that property cannot be used to change the code of a method. I envisioned methods, numbers, and strings as opaque objects. Even if you extend them with
23:00:27 <AnthonyKozar> custom members, there is currently no way to directly modify their internal values.
23:01:27 <AnthonyKozar> b_jonas: Yes, I would like both to write some longer programs and to create a reference interpreter (when time allows).
23:01:46 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152236&oldid=152233 * Lykaina * (+73) /* Hello, World! */ Added a rephrasing of the program.
23:02:28 <esolangs> [[-1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152237&oldid=151827 * Buckets * (+6)
23:04:50 <AnthonyKozar> I will probably implement SCOOP in Python since I believe Python makes it pretty easy to dynamically define objects and has excellent support for Unicode (from what I can tell).
23:06:17 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152238&oldid=152188 * Buckets * (+1)
23:08:16 <AnthonyKozar> korvo: (wi)b_jonas: would you recommend any changes to SCOOP, such as adding a catch all method or the equivalent of Python's __call__() ?
23:10:01 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152239&oldid=152236 * Lykaina * (+137) /* Add Two Numbers */ Used the program to explain how command chars make up words.
23:12:02 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152240&oldid=151971 * Buckets * (+42)
23:13:30 <AnthonyKozar> wib_jonas: Re: your second question, yes, there's always just the members of one object in scope and an object definition such as :xy□ works as you described.
23:15:38 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152241&oldid=152214 * Buckets * (+58)
23:16:39 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152242&oldid=152241 * Buckets * (+0)
23:17:04 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152243&oldid=152242 * Buckets * (+21)
23:18:19 <b_jonas> AnthonyKozar: I don't know right now. I'm still not sure I understand how powerful or not this is. I think it has enough power to express anything that you could in an ordinary lisp-like language with lambda and set!. It's more the description that I found a bit unclear.
23:19:10 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152244&oldid=152239 * Lykaina * (+394) /* Syntax */ Clarified some things.
23:19:40 <b_jonas> I think you should have a section that tells about just the syntax, with perhaps a BNF thing to show what items can go into what definitions; a section explaining what types of objects exist (null, number, string, italic-f methods, callback methods, small square objects);
23:20:31 <AnthonyKozar> Also, as you mentioned, objects cannot directly access values from their parent objects. The parent object can create a reference to itself in its offfspring so that they can use member access notation to access the parent. (And @ can always be used to access the top-level object that provides the scope for the main program code).
23:20:42 <b_jonas> and what data those objects store exactly. And I think it might be more readable if you talked about the scoping rules before you described what statements there are and maybe even the syntax.
23:21:52 <AnthonyKozar> OK. Thank you! That is all helpful feedback. :)
23:22:17 <esolangs> [[Compass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152245&oldid=152235 * Ractangle * (+28) /* Language syntax */
23:22:36 <AnthonyKozar> I have to go for dinner now but I'll try to reply to any further questions or comments later. Thanks again.
23:24:10 <b_jonas> I was also wondering if it would be worth to *remove* the copy object and extend object primitives, because the languae is still powerful without them, the nested definitions let you write a constructor method to create an object and fill its fixed members (as if from a prototype), and then after you call that constructor you can modify its variable members (the ones that differ between instances). But
23:24:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Diggy Gorgonzola * New user account
23:24:16 <b_jonas> I think that might change this to a very different language than you're imagining, and might turn it less object-oriented and more similar to just a bland language with closures and mutable upvalues.
23:25:53 <b_jonas> Also do I understand it right that a telephone method is like a bound method call from python, which stores not only code but also the self that it will execute with, and when you invoke such a telephone method it'll ignore the invocant entirely?
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23:28:46 <b_jonas> so if you write ←x▷ymz then this looks up the member m in object y, then if that y.m is an f-with-tail method then it will run the code in that member with $ being y, but if y.m is a telephone method then it'll invoke m with $ set to whatever invocant was saved in m when the colon-definition for that m ran, so y is only used to look up m and not afterwards, right?
23:30:03 <b_jonas> Does the top level program have the same syntax as the body of a colon-definition for the program object, except it probably makes no sense to put plain single-letter initializers in it because there's no parent to copy values from?
23:31:24 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152246&oldid=152244 * Lykaina * (+159) /* Jumping */ expanded section.
23:31:59 <b_jonas> I'd also like some clarification on when the methods for numbers like ×÷⌊◯ return a precise rational versus an imprecise float, but this is a nitpick.
23:35:43 <b_jonas> I think you thought both the syntax and semantics through carefully, it's just a lot to digest as a reader.
23:52:10 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152247&oldid=152246 * Lykaina * (+54) /* Line-scope Variables */
23:56:02 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152248&oldid=152068 * Hotcrystal0 * (+60)
23:56:33 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152249&oldid=152248 * Hotcrystal0 * (+10)
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00:01:59 <HackEso> 1/1:179) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 1234) <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
00:02:48 <int-e> (And then they have two problems?)
00:07:59 <b_jonas> int-e: https://xkcd.com/804/
00:08:00 <ais523> two problems both the same size as the original!
00:09:12 <b_jonas> you don't need the Banach-Tarski theorem for that if the problem is an infectious disease
00:33:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152250 * PkmnQ * (+110) Created page with "What was used to confirm these? -~~~~"
00:40:34 <b_jonas> oh, and I guess if you have built-in integers you might as well add a bitwise-and method to them, that can help
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00:49:38 <Lykaina> Sgeo: Have you looked at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth lately?
00:49:51 <Sgeo> I haven't actually seen it before now
00:54:18 <Sgeo> I wonder if the page would be a bit clearer if rearranged, introducing the concept of command groups and the initial letters table before showing any examples that use those
00:56:19 <Sgeo> I'm curious about the rationale behind using tk specifically for some things. I'd wonder if that makes it more esoteric, but then again a lot of CPUs have instructions that have to be used with specific registers
00:56:53 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152251&oldid=152247 * Lykaina * (+0) /* Syntax */ moved things around.
00:57:25 <Sgeo> Are wordnum = wnum and varnum = vnum? Maybe they need to be defined and one chosen for each (e.g. using wordnum consistently, or wnum consistently)
00:58:27 <Lykaina> the k in tk is for kompare
01:00:10 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152252&oldid=152251 * Lykaina * (+5) /* Core Instructions */ fixing typo Sgeo noticed
01:00:29 <Lykaina> should be wordnum and varnum
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01:10:19 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152253&oldid=152252 * Lykaina * (+32) /* Initial Letters Table */ clarifying something
01:14:32 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152254&oldid=152253 * Lykaina * (+15) /* Jumping */ formatting change
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01:58:34 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152255&oldid=152254 * Lykaina * (+6) Fixing first line.
02:05:17 <Lykaina> should I put the Core Instruction list in ASCII order?
02:07:32 <Sgeo> Can you put some sort of sorting on the table that lets the reader of the article choose sort order? I think by category makes sense as a default but can imagine why someone would want ASCII sort
02:07:35 <korvo> If there's no better order, then sure. Oftentimes instructions come with some sort of natural grouping or relationship.
02:08:22 <Lykaina> the current order is a more logical one
02:09:50 <Sgeo> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Sortable_tables I don't know if the wiki supports this
02:10:26 <Lykaina> i'll create https://esolangs.org/wiki/Afth/ASCII-sorted or something like that
02:11:44 <Lykaina> and i think it's time to remove {{stub}}
02:13:15 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152256&oldid=152255 * Lykaina * (-10) Removing {{stub}}.
02:43:44 <esolangs> [[Afth/ASCII-Core]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152257 * Lykaina * (+3583) ASCII-sorted Core Instructions
02:47:43 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152258&oldid=152256 * Lykaina * (+71) /* Core Instructions */ Adding link to the Afth/ASCII-Core page.
02:48:02 <korvo> Lykaina: Thinking like a technical writer: If somebody wanted to implement Afth, what would they need to know first? What would they read and how would they read it? It can be a useful perspective.
03:00:04 <Lykaina> I'm gonna make a separate page for the examples, as I tend to deconstruct them for the programmer's benefit. That takes up a lot of space.
03:04:37 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152259 * Lykaina * (+431) Making separate page for Afth Examples and their deconstructions and explanations.
03:08:01 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152260&oldid=152258 * Lykaina * (-377) /* Examples */ Moved Examples to Afth/Examples
03:47:09 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152261&oldid=152260 * Lykaina * (+169) /* Initial Letters Table */ formatting fix
03:51:06 <Lykaina> I have an idea for [[Afth/Ascii-Core]]...why not add blank spaces for the valid chars that aren't used?
03:58:49 <Lykaina> I'll do it on my GitHub's wiki instead, as it's useful for me.
04:16:55 <esolangs> [[Afth/ASCII-Core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152262&oldid=152257 * Lykaina * (+128) Adding "External Links"
04:20:51 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152263&oldid=152259 * Lykaina * (+106) Adding "External Links"
04:24:20 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152264&oldid=152261 * Lykaina * (+79) /* External Links */ adding link to GitHub Wiki
04:43:22 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152265&oldid=152263 * Lykaina * (+125) /* Examples */ Added "Cat"
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05:09:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TDNerd * New user account
05:15:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152266&oldid=152210 * TDNerd * (+180) TDNerd's introduction
05:57:13 <esolangs> [[Afth/ASCII-Core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152267&oldid=152262 * Lykaina * (+806) /* ASCII-Sorted Core Instructions */ Added space to show what is unused, something I need and others implementing the language might.
05:58:21 <esolangs> [[Afth/ASCII-Core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152268&oldid=152267 * Lykaina * (-20) /* External Links */ renamed link.
06:09:55 <esolangs> [[Deadman]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152269&oldid=151034 * Win7HE * (-81) /* Hello world program */
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07:44:15 <esolangs> [[Ti!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152270&oldid=150415 * 47 * (+65) /* Implementations */
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07:51:52 <esolangs> [[+*-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152271&oldid=145718 * 47 * (+255) /* External resources */
07:54:01 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152272&oldid=149624 * 47 * (+132) /* Online interpreters */
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08:57:13 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152273&oldid=152159 * Calculus is fun * (-624) removed linked list
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09:10:09 <lisbeths> korvo: so I realized quantum computers are like big prolog machines. they test every possible scenario
09:10:19 <lisbeths> so the idea of prolog and the idea of quantum computers fit together like a glove
09:34:22 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152274&oldid=152273 * Ractangle * (+61)
09:34:52 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152275&oldid=151562 * Ractangle * (+44)
09:36:04 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152276&oldid=151365 * Ractangle * (+10) /* BASE */
09:37:43 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152277&oldid=152276 * Ractangle * (+2) /* akdrfsbathnede knem */
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09:42:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152278&oldid=151546 * Ractangle * (+191)
09:43:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152279&oldid=152278 * Ractangle * (-6)
09:44:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152280&oldid=152279 * Ractangle * (+33)
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09:58:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152281&oldid=152280 * 47 * (+27)
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10:11:19 <lisbeths> korvo: it seems to me that the first problem is reducing prolog down to its grammatical essence. and then to take that language and redesign it to be a child on an evolutionary tree of languages designed to be sent into a jit
10:11:32 <lisbeths> i say that minkanren is along the grammatical path of evolution for prolog
10:11:52 <lisbeths> java is an ancient example of something along the path of evolution for a jitted language
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10:50:24 <esolangs> [[Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152282&oldid=152212 * C++DSUCKER * (-156) Found a mistake in my generating code
10:51:40 <esolangs> [[Bitchanger Busy beaver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152283&oldid=152282 * C++DSUCKER * (+0)
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11:27:15 <esolangs> [[StormLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152284&oldid=152057 * PrySigneToFry * (+455)
11:33:06 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152285&oldid=148566 * PrySigneToFry * (+915)
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11:55:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Luna * New user account
12:07:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152286&oldid=152266 * Luna * (+116) introducing myself
12:08:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152287&oldid=152286 * Luna * (+0) fixed typo in my introduction
12:42:22 <esolangs> [[Muriel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152288&oldid=150186 * Luna * (+3) fixed missing preposition
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14:32:53 <wib_jonas> I have a question about the zlib compression format. Is it possible to add padding near the end of a zlib stream, as in make the compressed stream longer in a way that doesn't change the decompressed stream? Is it possible to add padding with length of any given number of bytes above some small minimum size?
14:34:38 <wib_jonas> I'll try to read https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1951 but I figured someone here probably already knows.
14:34:47 <Lykaina> .zip stores data at the end of the file
14:35:50 <wib_jonas> zip or jpeg doesn't help me, I'd like zlib specifically
14:36:52 <wib_jonas> zlib is gzip without the gzip headers, not zip/pkzip
14:37:56 <Lykaina> well, you can concatenate a non-animated .gif and a .zip/.jar.
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14:38:21 <wib_jonas> both zip and gzip are wrappers around the deflate/zlib format
14:38:40 <wib_jonas> but here I'd like the raw deflate/zlib if possible
14:39:06 <Lykaina> sorry, i don't know...maybe someone else does
14:39:39 <fizzie> I think there's a thing, because I remember flushing a deflate encoder adds something. But it may be a fixed-length something, so maybe not suitable for a padding of arbitrary length.
14:40:22 <fizzie> This was in Go, and I remember reading this bit in the compress/flate (which does raw deflate streams) docs: "Calling Flush when there is no pending data still causes the Writer to emit a sync marker of at least 4 bytes."
14:40:55 <fizzie> There's a reference in the code also to https://www.bolet.org/~pornin/deflate-flush.html which explains what that is.
14:41:17 <fizzie> (Look up "type 0 block with empty contents" in that document.)
14:44:20 <fizzie> Also I believe "zlib" (the format) also has headers around a deflate stream, similar to gzip except more minimal, even if "zlib" (the library) can be used to produce raw deflate data as well.
14:52:36 <fizzie> Unrelated to your question, but the thing that I needed raw deflate streams for was to make a rudimentary seekable compression format, by splitting the (uncompressed) input to ~512kiB "frames" each compressed independently, and then appending a seek table with (compressed offset, uncompressed offset) pairs at the end.
14:52:53 <fizzie> There's some sort of semi-standard called "seekable ZSTD" that (I believe) does something vaguely similar, except in a manner that's transparently compatible with ZSTD decoders that don't know about it (by hiding the necessary extra data in "skippable frames" the ZSTD format has), and I tried just to use a random Go implementation of that to begin with, but it managed somehow to use tens of
14:52:55 <fizzie> gigabytes of RAM when writing and threw up errors when reading.
14:53:04 <fizzie> So I DIY'd it instead, and that seems to work fine.
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16:16:26 <wib_jonas> Ok, so zlib is made of blocks, each can be type 0 uncompressed or type 1 compressed with the default Huffman-table or type 2 compressed with a custom Huffman-table. The uncompressed data that the blocks represent are of byte granularity, but the compressed blocks are bit granular, except that type 0 uncompressed blocks are byte aligned after the 3
16:21:04 <wib_jonas> So a type 0 (uncompressed) block is made of 3 bits, then up to 7 bits of padding for byte alignment, then 4 bytes of header that specifies the length of the uncompressed payload measured in bytes, this length can be up to 65535 bytes or up to 32767 bytes, I'm not sure which, it doesn't matter. So an uncompressed block representing no bytes in the
16:21:04 <wib_jonas> uncompressed input can be used for padding, and this is 3 bits plus 4 bytes long, 5 bytes long if repeated.
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16:23:46 <wib_jonas> Now the type 1 or type 2 blocks Huffman-encode a number of items each of which represents a literal byte or a repeat statement or an end of block marker. A repeat statement copies a number of bytes from the 33k long window of recently seen uncompressed data, which may be from previous blocks.
16:24:21 <wib_jonas> Now the bad news is that a repeat statement always outputs at least three bytes, so you can't use it as padding without effects.
16:26:33 <wib_jonas> The good news is that you can still use a type 1 block that contains just an end of block marker, and this is 10 bits long; or a type 2 block that contains just the description of the Huffman encoding followed by an end of block marker, which is variable length and between something like 50 to 2315 bits long, I'm not sure about either limit.
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16:28:19 <wib_jonas> So you can add padding to a deflate stream, and it's not even hard because the representation of the padding can be precomputed as bit streams and they don't depend on the previous blocks of the zlib stream. I don't know which type is the most efficient for long padding, this would have to be tested with zlib and possibly multiple other inflate
16:33:48 <korvo> Ah, they just left.
16:33:58 <korvo> Summarizing note for when lisbeths returns: NP ain't BQP.
16:55:19 <leah2> can you prove that :p
17:32:44 <wib_jonas> leah2: probably no, because there's a million dollar prize on it
17:33:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152290&oldid=152250 * C++DSUCKER * (+265)
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17:34:11 <korvo> leah2: What b_jonas said. But we have some good evidence that NP doesn't collapse (indeed that PH doesn't collapse) and also good evidence that BQP derandomizes under some nice still-unknown conditions.
17:35:40 <korvo> In the case to explain to lisbeths, it should be possible to simulate a poly amount of qubits in Prolog, but it'll take exponential time to actually extract an answer from a simulated quantum computation. This matches Holevo's theorem.
17:36:43 <korvo> If BQP derandomizes to BPP then we can speed up the simulation by taking e.g. real-world entropy and taking multiple trials, just like a quantum computer currently does in e.g. Shor's algorithm.
17:38:26 <korvo> ...I might be a little strong here with my wording. I believe in both Exponential Time and also that hardness is confined to specific regions of instability; so hardness recursively includes a difficulty in recognizing which problems are hard.
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18:52:45 <b_jonas> korvo: I think it's the other direction that's the problem with lisbeth's statement. as in the original was https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-02-20.html#lub which seems to say that NP is in BQP in some easy way, which is a common misconception that's still mentioned in https://scottaaronson.blog/ 's tagline/motto.
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18:54:29 <b_jonas> but it's possible that I'm misinterpreting what lisbeths sayid
18:55:19 <korvo> b_jonas: Oh, sure. I'm gonna put a pin in the actually interesting stuff (JIT'ing Prolog) but this is a really good point for understanding.
19:21:14 <esolangs> [[FOSMOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152291&oldid=152229 * Aadenboy * (+140) /* Example macros */ macro info
19:25:28 <esolangs> [[OIIAOIIA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152292 * Tommyaweosme * (+352) Created page with "OIIAOIIA is a [[brainfuck]] derivative that is very special. == commands == transition from... O to O + O to I - O to A ++++++++++ I to O < I to I [ I to A ] A to O . A to I , A to A > space reset == reading it == o /u/ i /i/ a /a/ /e/ == examples
19:25:58 <esolangs> [[OIIAOIIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152293&oldid=152292 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) /* print "a" */
19:29:41 <korvo> It's only been a couple weeks returning to partial-evaluation literature and I'm already struck by the fact that partial evaluation in a metalanguage is so easy compared to self-application, because our object languages are deeply unpleasant and primitive.
19:30:38 <korvo> PE of Scheme, C, and Prolog are all proven self-applicable, but at too steep a psychic cost to maintain over time.
19:31:20 <korvo> PE of simple flowchart and SML-ish languages are also proven self-applicable, but we have to write all of our PE logic in these dinky little Turing tarpits.
19:36:09 <korvo> I did prove some fun lemmas along the way. Suppose a language admits a syntactic monoid; the binding-time analysis (BTA) can be monoidally decomposed, and this holds up when categorified.
19:38:28 <korvo> For example, Brainfuck's got a decomposable monoid. BTA simulates a state of (cells, pointer, unconsumed input) and annotates the program according to reachable states, bottoming out when there's no more input, when everything's static, or when the pointer or current cell value become too dynamic.
19:39:24 <korvo> That's actually more sophisticated than the expected BTA from Brainfuck interpreter structure, which is usually like (cells, pointer).
19:41:20 <korvo> I also found some fun folklore lemmas. PE of simply-typed LC is Jones-optimal when it includes inlining, unfolding, constant propagation, and constant simplification. That's a remarkably plausible-sounding inventory for those of us who are willing to write STLC.
19:54:53 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/sandbox 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152294 * Tommyaweosme * (+194) Created page with "<span style="background: #eee !important; font-family: 'Segoe UI', sans-serif !important; padding: 1em 2em !important; border-radius: 0.5em !important">Wow! This is a nice looking button!</span>"
19:57:53 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/sandbox 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152295&oldid=152294 * Tommyaweosme * (+99)
19:58:01 <esolangs> [[Q-BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152296&oldid=70969 * Cosmikdebris * (+44) /* External resources */ archive snapshot
20:54:41 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152297&oldid=152240 * Buckets * (+100)
21:07:09 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152298&oldid=152297 * Buckets * (+68)
21:16:33 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152299&oldid=149401 * Ractangle * (+84) /* Syntax */
21:17:06 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152300&oldid=152299 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Syntax */
21:21:14 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152301&oldid=152300 * Ractangle * (-110) /* Examples */
22:14:29 <b_jonas> Sgeo re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-08.html#lX8 no photo just an anecdote, but I found further evidence that slashed letter o was historically used for handwriting in programming: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2023-08.html#lX8
22:16:44 <Sgeo> The anecdote is the same document I linked? Or was one of those links meant to be something else?
22:18:04 <b_jonas> new evidence: http://www.madore.org/~david/skeets.html#skeet-20250219113239667
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23:25:41 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152303&oldid=152264 * Lykaina * (+256) /* Syntax */ Added something about "Stacks"
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23:57:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abba]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152307 * Buckets * (+203) /* What does 'glue 1,wait until g again.' Mean? */ new section
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01:27:50 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152310&oldid=144068 * I am islptng * (+163)
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01:32:35 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152312&oldid=152274 * Calculus is fun * (+225) Use of ROZ
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02:21:47 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152322&oldid=152321 * Calculus is fun * (+13) /* Linked List */
02:25:04 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152323&oldid=152322 * Calculus is fun * (+39) /* Cat */
02:35:13 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152324&oldid=152310 * Calculus is fun * (+215) /* MoreMathRPN */
02:36:53 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152325&oldid=152324 * Calculus is fun * (+21) /* External resources */
02:37:13 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152326&oldid=152325 * Calculus is fun * (+0) /* External resources */
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03:34:07 <Lykaina> turned a feature into a bug
03:42:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:OIIAOIIA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152328 * I am islptng * (+80) Created page with "<blockquote>o, i i a, i o i i i i a, i<br /> ::::::- a spinning cat</blockquote>"
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09:43:17 <korvo> lisbeths: Morning. Did you see our conversation in the logs? If not, I can catch you up.
09:44:26 <korvo> lisbeths: So, there were two interesting topics. One is JIT'ing Prolog, and we can come back to that later. But the other was hinting at a common misconception about quantum computing that is worth addressing.
09:45:04 <korvo> A quantum computer doesn't try every possibility at once. Rather, it builds up states of relatively high and low probability through some non-ontic mechanism. In terms of complexity theory, NP isn't BQP.
09:45:38 <korvo> We should be able to simulate qubits using Prolog. A polynomial amount of qubits will take exponential resources to simulate, though; Holevo's bound applies.
09:46:07 <b_jonas> sorry? what is "non-ontic"?
09:47:25 <lisbeths> all we need is a bunch of graphics cards
09:47:26 <korvo> Oh, sorry, I should pick better words. A theory can be either epistemic (what we know about a system) or ontic (what the system's states actually are). Quantum systems usually are epistemic and there's theoretical barriers to ontic models.
09:47:46 <lisbeths> I think that the language to be jitted should be a language that is capable of boostrapping a prolog
09:48:18 <korvo> Relevant to this channel, it's an easy theorem that no cellular automaton can implement qubits with only polynomial amounts of cellular data, used by Aaronson to argue against Wolfram's bullshit.
09:48:38 <lisbeths> sorry my mind is in many places at once
09:49:04 <korvo> Holevo's bound says that if you want to simulate a row of qubits, then you're going to have to spend poly time on a quantum machine, or exponential time on a classical machine, and you can only read out one bit/qubit.
09:49:33 <korvo> No worries! Let's leave QM behind and talk about JITs. Much simpler.
09:56:05 <lisbeths> until more information is out about quantum computers I can only speculate about the compilers that will run on them
09:58:32 <korvo> What kind of information?
09:58:54 <lisbeths> like buy a quantum processor at the store
09:59:49 <lisbeths> the only issue is if the research I do on jits has to be redone when quantum computing becomes common
10:03:50 <korvo> You can buy time on IBM's quantum computers today. It's not especially cheap. They have a software simulator that you can use for development.
10:05:22 <korvo> I'm not sure why JIT technology would be invalidated. All classical algorithms will still work.
10:19:56 <lisbeths> I am still looking for your answer to what we should use as a jit language in the year of our lord 2025 on the day of febuary 21
10:21:24 <korvo> lisbeths: Well, my answer's mostly the same as before. For self-application, I think that a synthetic language will do better than anything popular. For implementing a JIT, I'd use RPython. For the language to implement, anything!
10:22:33 <lisbeths> korvo should I use rpython as my jit or should I choose a langauge that is already jitted on rpython
10:23:56 <korvo> RPython is already JIT'd on RPython, via PyPy. So you don't have to worry about that.
10:28:16 <korvo> lisbeths: So for example perhaps you'd want to implement fastlisp in RPython as a simple interpreter. Then that interpreter can be turned into a JIT compiler with the same behavior.
10:29:14 <lisbeths> no fastlisp is going to run in some lambda calculus interpreter and it will be code that generates rpython
10:29:38 <lisbeths> korvo have you heard of the mojo version of python?
10:29:59 <korvo> You might find that to be a little slow; RPython's translator is whole-program, AOT, and takes at least five minutes.
10:30:47 <korvo> I'm aware of Mojo. It's not open-source or open to implement, so I don't really care about it. Most of their performance claims are about cherry-picked benchmarks and shouldn't be trusted.
10:30:52 <lisbeths> so you are saying that rpython outperforms mojo?
10:31:28 <lisbeths> ok first Im going to generate some regular python then im gonna generate some rpython
10:32:48 <korvo> Oh, RPython's outputs definitely outperform LLVM; RPython used to have an LLVM backend but they removed it because it wasn't worthwhile.
10:33:35 <lisbeths> yeah we are going with rpython for now on the fastlisp side but first im gonna generate some regular python
10:33:55 <lisbeths> I am creating a hybrid between scheme and fastlisp to speed up production
10:35:34 <korvo> Do you already have a production workflow?
10:35:51 <korvo> I've worked for multiple employers whose main issue was that they were focused on optimizing a non-existent production pipeline.
10:38:33 <lisbeths> I am not sure what you mean by production korvo
10:38:45 <korvo> lisbeths: What did you mean by production?
10:39:09 <korvo> I mean manufacturing, database queries, batch processing, that sort of thing.
11:08:06 <lisbeths> korvo what does a production workflow look like for someone who designs programming languages
11:09:59 <korvo> lisbeths: I like the SMM approach, somtimes called the Capability Matrix or the Maturity Model. It suggests that a language can evolve through five different stages of complexity and maturity. It also neatly lines up with Discordian philosophy.
11:10:25 <korvo> But I'm the sort of person who spends years per language. Somebody who emits languages more often probably has a different way of looking at it.
11:12:16 <lisbeths> I am just developing languages dialectically
11:12:35 <lisbeths> so capability matrixes may or may not be incorporated into my dialectics
11:39:54 <korvo> Sure. That's not unreasonable; Agile is popular because it delivers results.
11:44:36 <esolangs> [[EternalGolf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152329 * PrySigneToFry * (+5627) Created page with "EternalGolf is an esoteric programming language designed by PrySigneToFry to code-golfing. You're free to expand this programming language, just like [https://wiki.xdi8.top/wiki/%E5%B8%8C%E5%90%95%E5%AD%97%E6%AF%8D Infinite Shidinn Letter]. = Rules = # Your e
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15:19:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152331&oldid=152191 * PrySigneToFry * (+0) Fixed, but with different character(10,000 in Chinese, not n@zi sign)
15:20:01 <esolangs> [[1.1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152332&oldid=142605 * Cosmikdebris * (-3)
15:20:53 <esolangs> [[Python is Magic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152333&oldid=141200 * Benben * (+29) make "exec", "chr", and integers
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15:43:07 <Lykaina> fixing a bug in the Afth reference interpreter
15:46:11 <Lykaina> realized the bug existed right before i ell asleep
15:48:09 <Lykaina> was able to mention it in wiki, but not fix it
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16:03:57 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152334&oldid=152327 * Lykaina * (+64) /* Jumping */ Documenting results of bug fix.
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16:07:50 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152335 * I am islptng * (+3314) Created page with "{{SUBST::SLet}}"
16:10:17 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152336&oldid=152335 * I am islptng * (-547)
16:14:26 <Lykaina> damn...the cat program, which i just decided to test, isn't working
16:14:51 <Lykaina> i think it's another bug somewhere
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16:19:00 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152337&oldid=152336 * I am islptng * (-213)
16:35:01 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152338&oldid=152337 * I am islptng * (-76)
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16:42:57 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152339&oldid=152338 * I am islptng * (+30) /* Commands */
16:45:04 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152340&oldid=152339 * I am islptng * (+0) /* Commands */
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19:10:15 <esolangs> [[TESTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152341&oldid=140515 * 47 * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
19:10:34 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152342&oldid=142853 * 47 * (-24) /* TESTLANG */
19:31:35 <Lykaina> grrr...no idea what's wrong
19:33:36 <Lykaina> i just had to do a git restore
19:35:14 <Lykaina> the cat program i wrote doesn't work
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19:53:40 <int-e> Lykaina: what is this test for: len(line)%4 == 3 (the final line of the first cat program doesn't pass this test)
19:54:12 <int-e> (the test is in run_line)
19:55:16 <int-e> if I drop that check, the cat program does copy input to output. It fails to detect EOF
20:01:57 <Lykaina> found other old bugs in the process as well
20:04:02 <Lykaina> so glad i put the source online
20:04:46 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152343&oldid=152323 * Calculus is fun * (-10) /* Hello world */
20:05:22 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152344&oldid=152343 * Calculus is fun * (-13) /* Hello world */
20:09:28 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152345&oldid=152304 * Buckets * (+35)
20:09:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152346&oldid=152305 * Buckets * (+11)
20:10:03 <esolangs> [[Kyle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152347 * Buckets * (+1011) Created page with "Kyle is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2024, It is on a 2D grid and the Pointer is Kyle which '''might''' follow your directions, or not. {| class="wikitable" ! Commands !! Instructions |- | ^ || 20% chance to go up. |- | < || 20% chance t
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20:22:20 <esolangs> [[Kyle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152348&oldid=152347 * Buckets * (+39)
20:30:54 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152349&oldid=152243 * Buckets * (+59)
20:37:10 <Lykaina> now for the hard part: rewriting the mess of an input/output system i wrote so that it will accept an eof
20:55:13 <esolangs> [[Halt preventing brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152350 * C++DSUCKER * (+1536) Created page with "Halt preventing Brainfuck is a [[brainfuck]] derivative that can be used to solve the halting problem, calculate busy beavers, and solve math problems. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- | style="text-align:center"| <cod
20:55:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * C++DSUCKER * moved [[Halt preventing brainfuck]] to [[Loop preventing brainfuck]]: this makes more sense
20:57:15 <esolangs> [[Loop preventing brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152353&oldid=152351 * C++DSUCKER * (+0) /* Random number generator */
20:57:26 <esolangs> [[Loop preventing brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152354&oldid=152353 * C++DSUCKER * (+0) /* BrainFuck busy beaver */
20:57:36 <esolangs> [[Loop preventing brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152355&oldid=152354 * C++DSUCKER * (+0) /* Solving collatz conjecture */
21:02:51 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152356&oldid=152349 * Buckets * (+19)
21:08:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152357&oldid=152346 * C++DSUCKER * (+32)
21:08:21 <Lykaina> now i must figure out why hex output outputs 'k' instead of '0a'
21:09:15 <Lykaina> changed the cat program to stop after a new line
21:09:37 <Lykaina> haven't uploaded changes, though
21:18:45 <int-e> Lykaina: don't worry about updating git for my sake, I'm half asleep and no longer following
21:19:56 <Lykaina> it's for anyone who wants to look at current code
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21:36:21 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1319.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
21:50:39 <esolangs> [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152358&oldid=152220 * Hotcrystal0 * (+106)
21:51:26 <esolangs> [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152359&oldid=152358 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1)
21:52:01 <esolangs> [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152360&oldid=152359 * Hotcrystal0 * (-1)
21:57:43 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152361&oldid=152265 * Lykaina * (+478) /* Examples */ Added Echo.
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22:49:22 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152362&oldid=152345 * Buckets * (+362)
22:49:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152363&oldid=152357 * Buckets * (+356)
22:50:21 <esolangs> [[Fontmess]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152364 * Buckets * (+4443) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<span style="background-color:Gray;color:Yellow;">F</span><u><span style="font-size: 1.4em;">o</span></u>''<span style="background-color:Default;color:Green;">n</span>''<strike>t</strike><sup>m</sup><small><sub><span style="background-color:Black;col
23:04:06 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152365&oldid=152361 * Lykaina * (+157) /* Echo */ Added alternate Echo program.
00:01:19 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152366&oldid=152275 * Calculus is fun * (+165) /* Matrices */
00:11:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:MoreMathRPN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152367&oldid=152201 * Calculus is fun * (+230) /* Questions */
00:13:03 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152368&oldid=152366 * Calculus is fun * (+2) /* Matrices */
00:14:55 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152369&oldid=152368 * Calculus is fun * (+5) /* Standard operations */
01:14:33 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152370&oldid=152369 * I am islptng * (+42)
01:15:17 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152371&oldid=152370 * I am islptng * (+13) fix
01:21:16 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152372&oldid=152340 * I am islptng * (+20) /* Commands */
01:25:32 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152373&oldid=152372 * I am islptng * (-470)
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02:33:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152374&oldid=152363 * PrySigneToFry * (+18) /* E */
02:36:13 <esolangs> [[EternalGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152375&oldid=152329 * PrySigneToFry * (+143)
03:10:15 <esolangs> [[EternalGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152376&oldid=152375 * PrySigneToFry * (+520)
03:33:52 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152377&oldid=152285 * PrySigneToFry * (+48)
03:38:27 <esolangs> [[StormLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152378&oldid=152284 * PrySigneToFry * (+36)
03:42:17 <esolangs> [[StormLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152379&oldid=152378 * PrySigneToFry * (+168)
03:43:04 <esolangs> [[StormLang/Standard Libraries]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152380 * PrySigneToFry * (+67) Created page with "{{Back|StormLang}} Currently, StormLang STL is still in discussion."
03:43:16 <esolangs> [[StormLang/Standard Libraries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152381&oldid=152380 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
03:43:35 <esolangs> [[StormLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152382&oldid=152379 * PrySigneToFry * (+41)
04:22:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Neoff]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152383 * RainbowDash * (+390) Created page with "this is in need of a major rewrite the code before was supposed to look like normal code but abnormal, here was the original idea: <pre> Push Caller Set Let A = 0 Comefrom 4 A++ When (A == 10){ Call } Caller Set{ A = 0 Print(A has hit 10 and has been set back
05:27:14 <shachaf> int-e: https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/sea-magic
05:30:43 <korvo> Excellent, a sequel.
05:48:08 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152384&oldid=151495 * Benben * (+140) /* Legend */ add Lenguage
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06:50:15 <esolangs> [[Empty Program]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152385&oldid=151524 * Benben * (+135) /* Scratch(text), Kitten3(text), Kitten4(text) */ add link of scratch blocks
07:04:07 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152386&oldid=151640 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
07:09:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152387&oldid=84795 * PrySigneToFry * (+1748)
07:15:12 <esolangs> [[EternalGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152388&oldid=152376 * PrySigneToFry * (+2)
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08:32:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * 47 * moved [[IEO-fork]] to [[Tryit.org]]
08:32:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * 47 * moved [[Talk:IEO-fork]] to [[Talk:Tryit.org]]
08:32:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tryit.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152393&oldid=152391 * 47 * (-216) Blanked the page
08:34:31 <esolangs> [[Tryit.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152394&oldid=152389 * 47 * (-906)
08:36:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * 47 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:IEO-fork home.png]]"
08:36:57 <esolangs> [[Tryit.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152396&oldid=152394 * 47 * (+41)
08:37:16 <esolangs> [[Tryit.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152397&oldid=152396 * 47 * (+6)
08:37:27 <esolangs> [[Tryit.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152398&oldid=152397 * 47 * (+0)
08:37:45 <esolangs> [[Tryit.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152399&oldid=152398 * 47 * (+16)
08:40:45 <esolangs> [[Tryit.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152400&oldid=152399 * 47 * (+65)
08:46:17 <esolangs> [[Tryit.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152401&oldid=152400 * 47 * (+39)
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10:45:09 <esolangs> [[EternalGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152402&oldid=152388 * PrySigneToFry * (+473)
10:47:09 <esolangs> [[Loop preventing brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152403&oldid=152355 * C++DSUCKER * (+26)
11:40:07 <esolangs> [[Loop preventing brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152404&oldid=152403 * C++DSUCKER * (+26)
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13:08:42 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152405&oldid=151908 * PrySigneToFry * (+594)
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14:07:06 <int-e> shachaf: Oh well, at least I've got 12 (all?) medals: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/seamagic.png
14:27:17 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152406&oldid=152373 * I am islptng * (-651) /* Commands */
14:29:48 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft for SLet 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152407&oldid=152406 * I am islptng * (-123) /* Commands */
14:31:22 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152408&oldid=152405 * I am islptng * (+3) fix
14:36:01 <b_jonas> huh, is this some new game?
14:36:14 <int-e> 06:27:14 <shachaf> int-e: https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/sea-magic
14:37:57 <b_jonas> apparently "traitorous" and "treacherous" have somewhat different meanings in English and they might have different etimologies. I assumed "treacherous" was just a weird hard to remember irregular spelling for what should be "traitorous"
14:38:47 <int-e> a swamp can be treacherous but it lacks the freedom of will that a traitor has
14:40:04 <b_jonas> they are both from latin, but from apparently two unrelated latin verbs, "trīcor" and "trādō" respectively
14:42:20 <b_jonas> there are solutions for that, like the Zendikons
14:42:41 <b_jonas> though I think on Zendikar land has its own will even when it's not a creature
14:43:05 <b_jonas> and on that plane, every land is treacherous, not just swamps
14:43:47 <int-e> wtf is... oh it's an M:tG thing
14:44:16 <b_jonas> yes, Zendikar is a plane where the land keeps changing so it's hard to make maps or explore or build anything stable
14:46:08 <esolangs> [[EternalGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152409&oldid=152402 * PrySigneToFry * (+2)
15:11:02 <fizzie> Annoying: in this font, ▐ (right half block) is actually the inverse of ▍ (left three eights block) rather than ▌ (left half block).
15:12:19 <fizzie> Not *really* a problem for my use (I'm just doing some tick marks in a TUI that I want at double the horizontal resolution, and can set foreground/background colors appropriately and use left half block exclusively, that's exactly half the character cell in this font) but it still bothers me.
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15:35:44 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152410&oldid=152365 * Lykaina * (+532) /* Examples */ Added 5-Function RPN Calculator, updated Hello World.
15:41:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152411&oldid=152290 * C++DSUCKER * (+238)
15:41:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152412&oldid=152411 * C++DSUCKER * (-5)
15:50:16 <Lykaina> was able to make a 5-function rpn calculator in Afth
15:51:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Scratch progama de comer mi caca.png]]"
15:53:45 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152414&oldid=152078 * Tommyaweosme * (+4)
16:02:17 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152415&oldid=142976 * Tommyaweosme * (+91)
16:02:38 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152416&oldid=152415 * Tommyaweosme * (-1)
16:02:49 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152417&oldid=152416 * Tommyaweosme * (+3)
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16:08:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:OIIAOIIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152418&oldid=152328 * Tommyaweosme * (+349)
16:08:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:OIIAOIIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152419&oldid=152418 * Tommyaweosme * (+10)
16:12:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:OIIAOIIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152420&oldid=152419 * Tommyaweosme * (+416)
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16:14:11 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152421&oldid=152417 * Tommyaweosme * (-93) Blanked the page
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16:18:51 <esolangs> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152422&oldid=151143 * 47 * (+4) /* G# */
16:36:47 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152423&oldid=152371 * Calculus is fun * (+86) /* Matrices */
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17:32:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152424&oldid=152412 * C++DSUCKER * (+169)
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17:35:48 <esolangs> [[Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152425&oldid=152283 * C++DSUCKER * (+94)
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17:52:45 <esolangs> [[Bitchanger Busy beaver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152426&oldid=152425 * C++DSUCKER * (+0)
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19:22:30 <impomatic> Does anyone know the history of Fungewars, or have an earlier version? It was discussed quite a bit on the Befunge mailing list in the late 90s - other names suggested were Befunge Warriors and Funge Gladiators. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungewars
19:23:39 <ais523> I think Fungewars had mostly/entirely died down by the point I became interested in esolangs, and I've been here for much longer than most in this channel
19:24:42 <ais523> because I don't recall discussion about it, and the dates on the linked pages are very old
19:25:28 <ais523> I think it probably even predates the wiki?
19:25:56 <ais523> so you'd have to contact people who were active at that time
19:26:24 <impomatic> I remember Befunge from the 90s, but wasn't too interesthed at that point. I wrote a few programs in Brainfuck though.
19:29:31 <impomatic> The date on Fungewars 0.4.5 is December 2001, but the idea was being discussed 3-4 years before on the mailing list (I found the Befunge Mailing List archive).
19:32:35 <ais523> I think my interest in esolangs started in 2004 or so
19:33:01 <ais523> so it's before the period I remember, and you'll have to track down some people who were around the esolangs community before I was
19:37:16 <impomatic> Thanks, I'll try Chris Pressey, he might remember something.
19:45:19 <Lykaina> i'm having problems with Afth, with something I haven't pushed yet to github
19:47:23 <Lykaina> examples/calc.afth works, but examples/rpncalc.afth doesn't.
19:48:49 <Lykaina> the wiki page refers to 0.1, this is 0.2.
19:50:38 <korvo> Okay. What doesn't work? (The other question I usually start with is "What have you tried?" which you already answered.)
19:52:22 <Lykaina> the example file rpncalc.afth
19:52:48 <Lykaina> well, only addition works in it
19:53:11 <Lykaina> it's based on calc.afth, with everything works in
20:01:03 <int-e> shachaf: Yay. "Max rank reached!"
20:02:09 <Lykaina> the word definitions are in dict.afth
20:02:35 <Lykaina> that's the main difference between 0.1 and 0.2
20:03:03 <Lykaina> 0.1 had a tiny built-in dictionary
20:03:24 <Lykaina> i moved it to an external file
20:03:35 <korvo> int-e: Nice. I only got through the first few levels.
20:04:42 <korvo> Lykaina: It might be time to build some debugging tools. You can either go "white-box" or "clear-box", debugging by accessing the internals of the interpreter, or you could go "black-box" by treating the interpreter as opaque and writing acceptance tests in Afth.
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20:05:38 <korvo> Either way, don't worry about complete coverage yet. You have a git commit where everything worked, and so in the worst case, you can redo all of the work from 0.1 to 0.2. Yes, it's laborious, but sometimes it's the only way to find regressions.
20:05:39 <int-e> korvo: Some of the thinking from Bee Magic carries over, though it's quite a different game overall.
20:05:48 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:06:12 <esolangs> [[User:47/common.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152427 * 47 * (+91) Created page with "* {background-color:black !important; color:white !important;} a {color:purple !important;}"
20:06:27 <int-e> korvo: Also I've done nothing else today :P
20:06:36 <korvo> As you get used to writing smaller commits, tools like git-bisect can become *very* useful. I've bisected Linux and Mesa3D before, and it's actually a little fun since it only takes like five iterations.
20:06:40 <Lykaina> because i wrote it after 0.2
20:07:19 <esolangs> [[User:47/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152428&oldid=152427 * 47 * (-63)
20:07:20 <korvo> int-e: Good times. Some levels were about as difficult as Bee Magic for me, but some levels were much tougher; I confess that I can't figure out how to use Slide other than to softlock.
20:08:09 <korvo> Lykaina: Oh! Then there's a third possibility: that rpncalc.afth has a bug!
20:09:01 <int-e> korvo: Yeah, the sliding gave me some trouble too.
20:09:01 <Lykaina> then why does calc.afth work before the two diverge?
20:09:37 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152429&oldid=151337 * 47 * (+7)
20:09:38 <korvo> Well, presumably the divergence introduced a bug.
20:10:26 <ais523> korvo: bisecting Linux sounds painful just because of the compile times
20:10:30 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152430&oldid=152429 * 47 * (+14) /* Errors */
20:11:03 <ais523> hmm… in a repository that uses lots of parallel commits and does big merges of them, do bisections merge together half the commits to more quickly narrow down which of the branches the bug occurred on?
20:12:00 <korvo> ais523: The trick is to keep a git checkout of the kernel and build-and-boot from that one directory, even if using Apt, RPM, Nix, Portage, etc. for the rest of the system. For subsystems that can be 100% compiled as modules, like DRM/DRI, the build is quite incremental and spends most of its time bzip'ing the image.
20:12:13 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152431&oldid=147629 * 47 * (-8) /* G# */
20:12:44 <ais523> korvo: ah, I see, you aren't bisecting the entire kernel but just the files that seem relevant
20:12:52 <korvo> Mesa3D is the one that takes a long time to build, especially since they now use C++.
20:13:51 <ais523> I've done bisections before but don't really enjoy them, they're sufficiently time-consuming that I'd prefer to grep commit messages or reason out the bug instead
20:13:52 <korvo> ais523: Oh yeah, I'd just be diagnosing hardlocks in one piece of hardware. The worst part would be when the boot is fine but a userspace program provokes the hardlock; minutes of booting into X11 per test.
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20:16:46 <korvo> What's cool is that sometimes git-bisect does blame Somebody Else's Code, and usually it's right to do so! Counterfactual reasoning really does work for finding proximate causes of bugs, even if the problem is that somebody else refactored something and changed your invariants.
20:17:15 <korvo> Lykaina: How are things? Do you need more eyes?
20:19:56 <Lykaina> let me try rewriting rpncalc.afth to use relative jumps only instead of both relative and absolute
20:20:16 <ais523> korvo: this is of course an argument for programming languages being better at expressing invariants – they have moved slowly in that direction over time but still aren't really near what they'd need to manage
20:20:48 <ais523> even null-safety wasn't emphasised much until recently, even in relatively high-level languages
20:21:14 <ais523> the functional languages got there before the imperative ones, I think
20:23:34 <korvo> Yep. The trick is having a subobject classifier. In CoC or whatever, that's a type of Propositions. It's not something that imperative languages usually reify or conceptualize.
20:24:54 <korvo> In Cammy, the subobject classifier is 2, implying that everything is total-computable and discrete. Hoare logic could be described for an arbitrary f : X → Y in terms of pre- and post-conditions with types X → 2 and Y → 2.
20:25:20 <korvo> I haven't actually wired all of it up, but there's an obvious route to property-based testing and proofs of invariants and arbitrary properties.
20:26:07 <ais523> it strikes me that even something as simple as "assert on set; assert_unchecked on get" would, in addition to catching bugs, quite possibly improve the performance of the typical imperative program
20:26:20 <ais523> because the asserts on set would usually get optimised out and the asserts on get might be useful
20:27:24 <korvo> Yep. In RPython, checked bounds on arrays are not only usually JIT'd out, but repurposed into JIT guards which jump to not-yet-compiled code on failure. And if a guard fails enough, then its failure gets traced and JIT'd too.
20:28:42 <korvo> In order to make that practical, there's also guards for when exceptions are (not) raised, etc. Every check and assertion is turned into an optimization opportunity.
20:37:56 <Lykaina> i think i may have found where the problem is, but not why the problem is
20:39:47 <korvo> Nice. It might be the case that you can rewrite the code to make it simpler without having to understand the problem. Or it might be the case that the problem is small and can be repaired with surgery.
20:40:18 <Lykaina> problem is when there are two jump instructions on the same line
21:02:30 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152432&oldid=152334 * Lykaina * (-904) Removing "Predefined words" section, as there no longer are any.
21:09:33 <esolangs> [[Mierda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152433&oldid=82388 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+88) Rectified the Hello, World! program and introduced two further examples in a repeating cat program and a truth-machine.
21:10:28 <esolangs> [[Mierda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152434&oldid=152433 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+189) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Mierda programming language on GitHub and supplemented the Implemented category tag.
21:14:25 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152435&oldid=152410 * Lykaina * (+646) Updating for current version.
21:15:28 <esolangs> [[Mierda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152436&oldid=152434 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+8) Introduced line breaks in two of the example programs for reasons of aesthetics.
21:17:19 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152437&oldid=152432 * Lykaina * (+95) /* Jumping */ Adding notice about bug.
21:23:26 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152438&oldid=152435 * Lykaina * (+96) /* RPN Calculator */ added a note on how to use.
21:35:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152439&oldid=152424 * Int-e * (+302) Question about accounting for loops.
21:37:20 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152440&oldid=152423 * Calculus is fun * (+1) /* Implicit plotter */
21:38:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152441&oldid=152439 * Int-e * (+1) indent a reply for better readability
21:38:06 <esolangs> [[MoreMathRPN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152442&oldid=152440 * Calculus is fun * (+1) /* Infinity */
21:39:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152443&oldid=152374 * Buckets * (+14)
21:39:37 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152444&oldid=152362 * Buckets * (+12)
21:40:30 <esolangs> [[V]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152445 * Buckets * (+1264) Created page with "V is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. (The 2D grid is of A space of 16 by 16 Containing all extended ASCII in order.) {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | || Move 1 down. |- | || Move 1 right. |- | <sup>n</sup> || Set
21:43:13 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152446&oldid=150810 * Ractangle * (-57) /* ! */
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21:47:29 <int-e> korvo: Hmm, when counting Brainfuck steps for BB purposes, do you have ] check the loop condition, or does it jump back to the [? I guess the latter would make +[-] take 5 steps so BBB(4)=4 answers that question...
21:48:51 <korvo> int-e: Oh, I don't recall how it's defined. I'd guess that your reasoning is right. I normally think of Brainfuck as only checking with the [ operation, and the ] is mere syntax; I know that that's not always how it's implemented though.
21:49:42 <korvo> I should clarify that I didn't define the BBB() function but lifted it from one of our myriad Brainfuck sub-pages.
21:50:08 <int-e> Either convention is fine of course, it just doesn't seem to be specified rigorously enough
21:50:50 <int-e> (when looking at http://bbgauge.info/brainfuck.html)
21:51:57 <korvo> Yeah. I should tighten up that entire page. TBH I should write a script to generate/check the first few values of those tables too.
21:52:34 <korvo> Still, I owe the community to do a good job. I'll put it on my task list.
21:54:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitchanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152447&oldid=152441 * Int-e * (+107) clarifying the convention would help too.
22:25:11 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152448&oldid=145963 * RainbowDash * (+2)
22:26:46 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152449&oldid=152448 * RainbowDash * (-1) /* Esolangs I've made. */
22:41:22 <ais523> korvo: so I think the most common way to count cycles in BF is for the loop-test-and-jump to be one cycle regardless of whether the test indicates a jump or no jump, and regardless of how it's split up between the [ and ]
22:41:54 <ais523> it's commonly formulated as "[ jumps to after the ] if the cell is 0; ] jumps to after the [ if the cell is non-0" which is nicely symmetrical
22:42:25 <ais523> (BF Joust, where the timing matters, specifically mandates timing it like that – other implementations often don't specify it because it isn't observable)
22:44:15 <ais523> hmm… suppose you have an entirely unsynchronized multithreaded BF, with the threads sharing a tape but not the tape pointer, and instructions running in an arbitrary sequence (not simultaneously, but there's no constraint on how many times one thread can act before the other one does) – is it possible to write a 100% reliable mutex or semaphore, or will there always be some timing combination that defeats it?
22:45:26 <ais523> there are communication primitives you can write, like "wait for the other thread to reach a certain point in its computation" and message channels, but you can't obviously build mutexes out of those
22:46:40 <esolangs> [[ASCII Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152450&oldid=152050 * MihaiEso * (-1)
22:49:18 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think you can do that with vanilla brainfuck, you need to add some rule for it, either a new command, or defining something that used to be undefined behavior like some underflow/overflow
22:49:54 <ais523> b_jonas: I can't think of a way to do it, but this is the sort of thing where it might be hard to prove that it's impossible
22:52:24 <ais523> actually, I have a promising start of an approach but it doesn't solve the problem on its own: thread 1 locks a mutex by checking it's zero, incrementing it, then checking it's zero – thread 2 does the same but decrements
22:53:17 <ais523> I don't think there's any way for both threads to think they've locked it, but this doesn't solve the problem of recovering if there's contention, because if one thread could discover that the other has tried to lock it without discovering whether the other thread knows about the contention or whether it took the lock
22:53:37 <ais523> * checking it's zero, incrementing it, then checking it's nonzero
23:03:35 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152451&oldid=148427 * MihaiEso * (+165) /* Hello, world! */
23:11:51 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152452&oldid=152451 * MihaiEso * (+11)
23:58:16 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152453&oldid=152452 * MihaiEso * (+235) /* Hello, world! */
00:07:23 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152454&oldid=152453 * MihaiEso * (+142) /* Examples */
00:37:08 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152455 * MihaiEso * (+1396) Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|Hello, world!}} '''Hello,world!''' is a joke esolang by [[User:MihaiEso]], it is a [[Nope.]] derivative and a [[no-code esolang]]. Every program is a [[Hello, world!]] program, so the esolang is ''completely'' unusable for programming. ==Na
00:37:57 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152456&oldid=152455 * MihaiEso * (+77) /* Name */
00:38:33 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152457&oldid=152456 * MihaiEso * (+13) /* Name */
00:40:03 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152458&oldid=152457 * MihaiEso * (+50)
00:40:35 <esolangs> [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152459&oldid=120635 * MihaiEso * (+80)
00:41:09 <esolangs> [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152460&oldid=152459 * MihaiEso * (+1)
00:46:40 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152461&oldid=152052 * MihaiEso * (+72)
00:47:57 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152462&oldid=151939 * MihaiEso * (+104)
01:15:58 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152463&oldid=152458 * PrySigneToFry * (+281)
01:50:12 <esolangs> [[EternalGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152464&oldid=152409 * PrySigneToFry * (+210)
01:51:56 <esolangs> [[EternalGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152465&oldid=152464 * PrySigneToFry * (+8)
01:58:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152466&oldid=152331 * PrySigneToFry * (+1058) /* Join to EternalGolf development team? */ new section
02:28:11 <esolangs> [[ORS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152467 * None1 * (+884) Created page with "'''ORS''' (Objects R Succinct), designed by [[User:None1]] in [[:category:2025|2025]], is an [[object-oriented]] language that has a very succinct syntax, like most other [[esoteric programming language]]s. ==Examples== ===[[Hello, world!]]=== p: sc Writer; Writer.write("H
02:33:29 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152468&oldid=152437 * Lykaina * (-73) /* Core Instructions */ updating to current
02:38:28 <esolangs> [[Afth/ASCII-Core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152469&oldid=152309 * Lykaina * (-27) /* ASCII-Sorted Core Instructions */
02:39:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152470&oldid=152466 * PrySigneToFry * (+2860)
02:41:07 <shachaf> int-e: I barely played any of it yet.
02:51:43 <esolangs> [[Afth/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152471&oldid=152438 * Lykaina * (-930) Updating to current.
02:54:40 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152472&oldid=152468 * Lykaina * (+0) /* Jumping */ updating to current
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03:17:36 <Lykaina> Freed up the Afth instructions <,>,^,and v
03:20:05 <esolangs> [[Lythnology]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152473 * RainbowDash * (+6646) Create Lythnology
03:20:26 <Lykaina> it no longer has an increment, decrement, or shift-right
03:20:56 <Lykaina> it does, however, have a shift-left-and-increment now
03:20:59 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152474&oldid=152449 * RainbowDash * (+17) /* Esolangs I've made. */
03:22:19 <Lykaina> shl was moved to 0, shl_inc is at 1
03:23:58 <Lykaina> on the plus side, if i want to make a funge...
03:26:01 <esolangs> [[Lythnology]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152475&oldid=152473 * RainbowDash * (+437) /* Example Programs */
03:27:10 <esolangs> [[Lythnology]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152476&oldid=152475 * RainbowDash * (+58) /* Ten bottles of beer on the wall */
03:28:03 <esolangs> [[Lythnology]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152477&oldid=152476 * RainbowDash * (+96) /* Printing */
03:28:17 <esolangs> [[Lythnology]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152478&oldid=152477 * RainbowDash * (+4) /* Printing */
03:31:40 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152479&oldid=152344 * Calculus is fun * (+183) /* Functions */
03:32:06 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152480&oldid=152216 * Aadenboy * (-103) yawn... adding [[braingrate]] I guess...
03:32:48 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152481&oldid=152479 * Calculus is fun * (+16) /* Linked List */
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03:49:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * RainbowDash * uploaded "[[File:Lythnolo.png]]"
03:53:11 <esolangs> [[Lythnology]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152483&oldid=152478 * RainbowDash * (+298)
03:53:38 <esolangs> [[Lythnology]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152484&oldid=152483 * RainbowDash * (+29)
03:54:28 <esolangs> [[Lythnology]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152485&oldid=152484 * RainbowDash * (+28)
04:03:56 <esolangs> [[Afth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152486&oldid=152472 * Hakerh400 * (-39) Add interpreter
04:11:34 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152487&oldid=152463 * MihaiEso * (+175) /* Name */ Added some names
04:12:54 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152488&oldid=152454 * MihaiEso * (+27) /* Hello, world! */
04:17:20 <esolangs> [[Template talk:InDebated]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152489 * PrySigneToFry * (+215) Created page with "Can I create this template? <pre> :''This is currently being debated. It may be changed in the future.''<includeonly>[[Category:Being-Debated]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Category:Being-Debated| ]]</noinclude> </pre>"
04:45:36 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152490&oldid=152487 * PrySigneToFry * (+50)
04:49:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152491&oldid=152330 * PrySigneToFry * (+85)
05:34:57 <zzo38> I read the documentation for ASN.1 BER library in OpenBSD, and it seems like the documentation is not complete, and seems to be limited in some ways.
05:35:33 <zzo38> One problem seems to be the OID structure, which seems unnecessary to me. Decoding OIDs into sequences of numbers is rarely necessary, except to display them, and this structure imposes unnecessary limits on OIDs, too.
05:37:55 <zzo38> (If you only want to check if it is valid, this can be done by the regular expression: /^(([\x81-\xFF][\x80-\xFF]*)?[\x00-\x7F])+$/ although it does not need to be implemented as a regular expression.)
05:38:19 <zzo38> (Maybe, I can write to them about that, if I know who to write to?)
06:02:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152492&oldid=152491 * Aadenboy * (+55) canon
06:06:04 <esolangs> [[Template talk:InDebated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152493&oldid=152489 * Unname4798 * (+247)
06:06:12 <esolangs> [[Template:InDebated]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152494 * Unname4798 * (+174) Created page with ":''This is currently being debated. It may be changed in the future.''<includeonly>[[Category:Being-Debated]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Category:Being-Debated| ]]</noinclude>"
06:16:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152495&oldid=151647 * PrySigneToFry * (+182) /* Category:Being-Debated */ new section
06:17:40 <esolangs> [[Category:Being-Debated]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=152496 * PrySigneToFry * (+63) Created page with "This category is for the articles that currently being debated."
06:22:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152497&oldid=134929 * PrySigneToFry * (+1192) /* Babel plug-in */ new section
06:24:10 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=152498&oldid=149308 * PrySigneToFry * (+77)
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