[...]
15:26:02 <int-e> !ztest dontmindme file:///usr/bin/[
15:26:02 <zemhill> int-e: parse error: starting [ without a matching ]
15:35:42 <esolangs> [[T+Riangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165575&oldid=165519 * C++DSUCKER * (+0)
15:35:58 <esolangs> [[T+Riangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165576&oldid=165575 * C++DSUCKER * (+2)
15:49:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SDGL4RNG * uploaded "[[File:$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png]]"
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15:54:57 <esolangs> [[$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165578 * SDGL4RNG * (+70) Created page with "[[File:$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png|thumb|alt=nope(4)|nope program]]"
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15:55:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Corbin * moved [[User:Vertical tab 'N]] to [[Vertical tab 'N]]: Program form (output-only challenge), not user. Heads up: user page once belonged to alt of ColorfulGalaxy.
15:56:18 <esolangs> [[$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165581&oldid=165578 * SDGL4RNG * (+45)
15:56:31 <esolangs> [[$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165582&oldid=165581 * SDGL4RNG * (-20) /* Nope(4) */
16:10:32 <esolangs> [[User:TheSpiderNinjas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165583&oldid=164805 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+11)
16:11:56 <esolangs> [[Sigq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165584 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+1385) Created page with " == Stuff == <pre> ! True ? False !?! Binary, ! for 1 and ? for 0 1 Variable {7} Number, only works as a value 0 = !?! Set a var to a value ^= for specifically bool #= for specifically int 0? [ ] If the value is true run the block of code 0? < > While the v
16:12:16 <esolangs> [[Sigq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165585&oldid=165584 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+35)
16:19:17 <esolangs> [[Sigq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165586&oldid=165585 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+135)
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18:31:40 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165587&oldid=165469 * Hotcrystal0 * (+775) B3/S23
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18:39:57 <Everything> Hi all. Has anybody tried this as esolang? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyck_language Maybe, unlambda-type language?
18:58:21 <korvo> Everything: Sure. Many Lisps are Dyck. From my list, my language Cammy is Dyck and S-expressions are Dyck in general.
19:00:04 <korvo> I should add Dyck monoids to [[monoid]]. I don't know if we use them anywhere, but they might be useful for justifying why e.g. Brainfuck has a semantic monoid.
19:06:57 <Everything> No, without functions. Only nested parentheses. Is it possible?
19:10:04 <int-e> you can write Iota weirdly with () = ι
19:11:42 <int-e> or other languages with the same kind of syntax, e.g., https://treecalcul.us/
19:14:56 <korvo> Everything: In general, *any* language is going to eventually yield something with interesting computational content. Do you have a goal in mind?
19:17:31 <korvo> More interesting to me is e.g. the fact that Dyck grammars can be efficiently parsed mid-document; they are more efficient than CFGs when doing online text-editing, LSP processing, tree-sitting, etc.
19:26:42 <Everything> I have no specific idea, just curious.
19:30:08 <korvo> I guess that the answer is that *the* Dyck language, balanced parens, is already a very well-known language. It's often just called BP. It's not esoteric at all.
19:30:34 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165588&oldid=164113 * Hotcrystal0 * (+126)
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20:44:39 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165589&oldid=165574 * Aadenboy * (+8) /* logB A (floored) */ indent
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21:54:03 <esolangs> [[?barinfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165590 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+375) Created page with "?brainfuck is a simple derivative of brainfuck that allows it to be non-deterministic. It adds one command. the command: ? if cell is 0 it stays that way, if the cell is positive it is set to a random number in the set {1,2,...,x} where x is the value
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21:55:46 <esolangs> [[?barinfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165591&oldid=165590 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+109)
21:57:07 <esolangs> [[?barinfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165592&oldid=165591 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-1)
21:59:31 <esolangs> [[?barinfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165593&oldid=165592 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+166)
21:59:57 <esolangs> [[?barinfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165594&oldid=165593 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-649) Blanked the page
22:00:22 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165595 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+649) Created page with "?brainfuck is a simple derivative of brainfuck that allows it to be non-deterministic. It adds one command. the command: ? if cell is 0 it stays that way, if the cell is positive it is set to a random number in the set {1,2,...,x} where x is the value
22:00:36 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165596&oldid=164434 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+16)
22:18:08 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165597&oldid=165595 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+410)
22:25:00 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165598&oldid=165597 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-15)
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22:38:15 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165599&oldid=165598 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+392)
22:40:49 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165600&oldid=165599 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+30)
23:30:02 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165601&oldid=165600 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+138)
23:30:19 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165602&oldid=165601 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-1)
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01:17:53 <zzo38> How to record a video DVD on Linux from a MPEG-TS file with H.264 and AAC codec and keeping any existing EIA-608 captions in the recording?
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03:30:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MCLMLI * New user account
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06:13:29 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165603&oldid=165588 * PrySigneToFry * (+236)
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07:32:55 <esolangs> [[Emblema]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165604&oldid=165540 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+29) /* Description */
07:33:07 <esolangs> [[Emblema]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165605&oldid=165604 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1) /* Description */
08:05:20 <esolangs> [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165606&oldid=162819 * Mad4j * (+306) /* Programs */
08:08:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165607&oldid=153400 * U * (+465) /* Deletion of Isec, Why Isec is turing swamp?, Isec TC proof, IBSE and Fraction. */ new section
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09:57:28 <esolangs> [[I]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165608 * U * (+315) Created page with "using 2 0. op: if increased first is 0, second is increasing. at end first will be divided on second. interpreter on c(z: unsigned 16bit number of ops, after z= is it, memory(x and y) is signed 8bit):const unsigned char main(void){{char x=0b0,y=0b0;{unsigned short z=;while(z){x++;if
10:00:05 <esolangs> [[I]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165609&oldid=165608 * U * (+17)
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11:07:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Chat Majest * New user account
11:26:15 <esolangs> [[Llvln]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165610 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+106) Created page with "'''LLvlN''' or Low-Level Nonsense is not a language, make LLvlN an actual language [[Category:Low-level]]"
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11:45:42 <esolangs> [[Stakr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165611 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+1449) Creation
11:45:59 <esolangs> [[Fuckbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165612&oldid=164182 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+29)
11:48:38 <esolangs> [[Stakr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165613&oldid=165611 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+7)
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13:56:08 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165614&oldid=165573 * I am islptng * (+8) Updated music player link
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15:58:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Why isec is turing swamp?]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
15:59:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Isec]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
16:01:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Isec TC proof]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
16:02:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[IBSE]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
16:02:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Fraction]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
16:08:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165615&oldid=165607 * Fizzie * (+709) /* Deletion of Isec, Why Isec is turing swamp?, Isec TC proof, IBSE and Fraction. */ Reply.
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17:51:11 <esolangs> [[Llvln]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165616&oldid=165610 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+8947) Created comprehensive documentation for LLvlN esoteric programming language
17:53:41 <esolangs> [[Llvln]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165617&oldid=165616 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-24) Comet Created This In My Name With My Account Bru
18:03:28 <esolangs> [[Llvln]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165618&oldid=165617 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+37) /* Truth Machine */
18:15:39 <esolangs> [[Llvln]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165619&oldid=165618 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+655) Added implementation link and usage example for LLvlN interpreter.
18:18:20 <esolangs> [[Llvln]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165620&oldid=165619 * Corbin * (-17) Tag as AI-generated; Comet Browser is a Perplexity product. Also clarify the otherwise-incorrect TC claim. The instructions are very similar to 6502/8086-ish CPUs (because chatbots have no imagination) so plenty of existing code should port. Almost entirely unrelated to BF.
18:19:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Llvln]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165621 * Corbin * (+335) And this is why chatbots aren't helping y'all learn.
18:22:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aadenboy * moved [[Llvln]] to [[LLvlN]]: move to correct title
18:22:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aadenboy * moved [[Talk:Llvln]] to [[Talk:LLvlN]]: move to correct title
18:22:48 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165626&oldid=165622 * Aadenboy * (-27) remove hatnote
18:23:36 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165627&oldid=165626 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-624)
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18:34:38 <esolangs> [[Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165628&oldid=127302 * Corbin * (-99) See also.
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18:39:43 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165629&oldid=165627 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+7)
18:47:42 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-mini]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165630 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+5580) Created LLvlN-mini variant page - a minimalist subset of LLvlN with 4 registers and 12 instructions
18:50:01 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165631&oldid=165629 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+30) Updated Variants section to link to newly created LLvlN-mini page
18:50:35 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165632&oldid=165631 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-21)
18:51:41 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-mini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165633&oldid=165630 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+1)
18:52:00 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-mini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165634&oldid=165633 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-41) Requested deletion by creator
18:52:19 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-mini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165635&oldid=165634 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+1)
18:53:08 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165636&oldid=165632 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-80)
18:55:59 <zzo38> How to extract the raw EIA-608 data from a H.264 video from a MPEG-TS file? How can I then map the timing correctly if the video (which may have discontinuities due to commercial breaks) is then converted to DVD format?
18:57:34 <esolangs> [[LLvlN++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165637 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+10006) Created LLvlN++ page - extension of LLvlN with functions and procedure calls
18:58:50 <esolangs> [[LLvlN++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165638&oldid=165637 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-12)
18:59:01 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165639&oldid=165636 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+31) Link LLvlN++ variant to its new page
18:59:31 <esolangs> [[LLvlN++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165640&oldid=165638 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-80)
19:09:34 <esolangs> [[LLvlN++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165641&oldid=165640 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+2394) Integrated OOP and Async features as core parts of LLvlN++ rather than separate extensions
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19:18:22 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-FLOAT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165642 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+11215) Created LLvlN-FLOAT variant page with floating-point spice registers, replaces originally proposed LLvlN-spicy
19:21:33 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-FLOAT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165643&oldid=165642 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-131)
19:23:19 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165644&oldid=165639 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-70) Add link to LLvlN-FLOAT in Variants and See Also sections (LLvlN-FLOAT is the official floating-point extension, formerly LLvlN-spicy)
19:25:24 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165645&oldid=165644 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-23)
19:28:29 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-FLOAT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165646&oldid=165643 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-122)
19:40:14 <esolangs> [[Quantum-LLvlN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165647 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+3354) Created new Quantum-LLvlN esolang article
19:46:31 <esolangs> [[Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165648&oldid=165628 * Corbin * (+2302) /* Operations */ Explain stack effects and stack-effect notation. Also quickly prove that ROT can't be built from stack-shufflers that only touch two arguments at a time.
20:05:42 <korvo> Wow, that's a lot of slop to clean up.
20:15:38 <int-e> "created in 2025 by Comet AI Browser"
20:15:59 <int-e> (if the weird itemized style didn't make it obvious already, it even tells on itself?)
20:36:20 <esolangs> [[Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165649&oldid=165648 * Corbin * (+3739) Demonstrate the two-stack zipper technique. This is well-known folklore.
20:46:19 <esolangs> [[LLvlN++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165650&oldid=165641 * Corbin * (-68) Remove hallucinated categories. Discuss at [[esolang:categorization]] first, please!
20:52:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:LLvlN-FLOAT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165651 * Corbin * (+478) Some options for improvement.
20:52:31 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-FLOAT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165652&oldid=165646 * Corbin * (-28) Remove hallucinated category.
20:57:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Quantum-LLvlN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165653 * Corbin * (+491) Sorry, this one ain't gonna work. Good luck implementing it!
20:59:20 <esolangs> [[Quantum-LLvlN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165654&oldid=165647 * Corbin * (+12) Fix links; Q is a real language but it's not [[Q]]. Quipper's a real language too.
21:01:18 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-mini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165655&oldid=165635 * Corbin * (-31) Removing hallucinated category.
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21:26:43 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Subset]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165656 * Aadenboy * (+1227) write a stub on an esoteric subset of iterate. I think the descriptions are fine, it's just the examples that are needed. it might be fun to try and program in this subset as there might be other complications that maybe aren't obvious here
21:29:48 <esolangs> [[Iterate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165657&oldid=165434 * Aadenboy * (+288) clarify on what a visit is, and link to [[Iterate/Subset]] and [[Iterate/Math]] in a new section
21:32:28 <esolangs> [[Pola]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165658 * Corbin * (+768) Stub for a fun restricted language: if you can implement a 3SAT solver in Pola then P=NP.
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22:51:51 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165659&oldid=159428 * Dmiz * (+194)
22:55:17 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165660&oldid=165659 * Dmiz * (-48)
22:57:20 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165661&oldid=165660 * Dmiz * (-6)
23:13:17 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165662&oldid=165661 * Dmiz * (-18)
23:13:53 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165663&oldid=165662 * Dmiz * (+16)
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23:19:48 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165664&oldid=165663 * Dmiz * (+41)
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00:43:24 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165665&oldid=165614 * MihaiEso * (-4)
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01:09:39 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165666&oldid=165587 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1084)
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02:30:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iacgm * New user account
02:32:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165667&oldid=165506 * Iacgm * (+93) /* Introductions */
02:34:55 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165668&oldid=138765 * Iacgm * (+51) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
02:52:44 <esolangs> [[C2bf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165669 * Iacgm * (+1243) Created page with "C2bf (not to be confused with [[C2BF]]) is a [[compiler]] from a large subset of C into [[Brainfuck]] written by Ian Graham Martinez. The project is written in Rust, and the source code is available at [https://github.com/iacgm/c2bf]. The project supports: - Integer Arithme
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02:55:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iacgm * moved [[C2bf]] to [[C2bf rs]]: Clash with C2BF
02:55:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iacgm * moved [[C2bf rs]] to [[C2bf (2025)]]
02:55:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iacgm * moved [[C2bf (2025)]] to [[C2BF (2025)]]
02:56:27 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165676&oldid=165668 * Iacgm * (+9) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
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06:04:34 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165677&oldid=165214 * H33T33 * (+534)
06:05:04 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165678&oldid=165677 * H33T33 * (+2)
06:05:42 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165679&oldid=165678 * H33T33 * (+15)
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07:42:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elbereth * New user account
07:46:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165680&oldid=165667 * Elbereth * (+234) Hi, I'm currently interested in [[Core War]] & NetHack, though just starting in both; I found this wiki accidentally when searching about Core War.
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09:28:25 <esolangs> [[ETC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165681 * Elbereth * (+1454) It's simple, but not without potential...
09:30:28 <esolangs> [[ETC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165682&oldid=165681 * Elbereth * (+0) The usual wiki code transformation :(
09:31:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165683&oldid=165548 * Elbereth * (+10) /* E */ [[ETC]]
09:38:46 <esolangs> [[User:Elbereth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165684 * Elbereth * (+286) Created page with "Has not made anything notable yet; Hi; I'm currently interested in [[Core War]] & NetHack, the former being the reason i got here; I might improve pages by updating outdated information, maybe even user pages if there is a good enough reason (please check edit
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10:34:51 <iddi01> !ztest epsilon https://raw-paste.vercel.app/raw/4o990n984n470np1639p1723394337r9
10:34:52 <zemhill> iddi01: URL fetch problems: 429 Too Many Requests
10:35:13 <iddi01> !ztest epsilon https://raw-paste.vercel.app/raw/4o990n984n470np1639p1723394337r9
10:35:13 <zemhill> iddi01: URL fetch problems: 429 Too Many Requests
10:35:49 <iddi01> !ztest epsilon https://raw-paste.vercel.app/raw/4o990n984n470np1639p1723394337r9
10:35:49 <zemhill> iddi01: URL fetch problems: 429 Too Many Requests
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10:37:46 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165685&oldid=165645 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-54)
10:38:05 <iddi01> !ztest epsilon https://raw-paste.vercel.app/raw/4o990n984n470np1639p1723394337r9
10:38:05 <zemhill> iddi01: URL fetch problems: 429 Too Many Requests
10:39:04 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165686&oldid=165685 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+16)
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10:40:32 <esolangs> [[Quantum-LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165687&oldid=165654 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+2) Rename Quantum-LLvlN to LLvlN-Quantum
10:40:47 <fizzie> Even from an endpoint that's definitely never fetched it before, that URL gives me a javascript-requiring proof-of-work challenge, which isn't going to happen with zemhill.
10:41:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TheSpiderNinjas * moved [[Quantum-LLvlN]] to [[LLvlN-Quantum]]: Rename Quantum-LLvlN to LLvlN-Quantum
10:41:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TheSpiderNinjas * moved [[Talk:Quantum-LLvlN]] to [[Talk:LLvlN-Quantum]]: Rename Quantum-LLvlN to LLvlN-Quantum
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10:41:56 <iddi01> I can't get a paste into pastebin.com anymore, it always falls back to the main page after the captcha...
10:42:26 <iddi01> please suggest an alternative!
10:43:07 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-Quantum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165692&oldid=165688 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+8)
10:43:15 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/ is what I usually use (via curl).
10:43:19 <esolangs> [[LLvlN-Quantum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165693&oldid=165692 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-48)
10:43:44 <esolangs> [[LLvlN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165694&oldid=165686 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-18)
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10:52:54 <iddi01> does not work: "405 Method Not Allowed"
10:58:23 <fizzie> !ztest bad https://0x0.st/KMCl.txt
10:58:24 <zemhill> fizzie.bad: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
10:58:35 <fizzie> Works for me, that's all I know: https://0x0.st/KMCU.txt
10:59:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 6e12fyou * New user account
11:00:22 <fizzie> I guess you could hypothetically use HackEso as well, but it would require splitting a program to fit on IRC lines, and be incredibly inconvenient as well.
11:02:27 <esolangs> [[LogicGates]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165695 * None1 * (+1840) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1}} ==Memory== It uses a bit accmulator, an unbounded bit tape and a pointer. All bits are initially 0. ==Commands== * {{cd|<}}/{{cd|>}}: Move the pointer to the left/right. * {{cd|[''CODE'']}}: While accmulator isn't 0, do ''CODE''. * Logic gates rep
11:03:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165696&oldid=165683 * None1 * (+17) /* L */
11:03:31 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165697&oldid=165696 * None1 * (+0) /* L */
11:04:05 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165698&oldid=165358 * None1 * (+64) /* My Esolangs */
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11:04:22 <fizzie> https://bpa.st/ is another site they recommend on #c -- it has a web form, and a 'raw' link that seems okay.
11:05:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165699&oldid=165680 * 6e12fyou * (+183) /* Introductions */
11:05:47 <esolangs> [[User:6e12fyou]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165700 * 6e12fyou * (+5) Created page with "hi :)"
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11:06:36 <iddi01> !ztest epsilon https://bpa.st/raw/GBOA
11:06:37 <zemhill> iddi01.epsilon: points 22.19, score 57.64, rank 1/47 (+1)
11:06:44 <esolangs> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165701&oldid=165433 * None1 * (+64) /* Iterate */
11:07:21 <iddi01> fizzie: thanks a lot, somehow these sites cannot be found via online searching...
11:07:32 <iddi01> !zjoust epsilon https://bpa.st/raw/GBOA
11:07:32 <zemhill> iddi01.epsilon: points 22.19, score 57.64, rank 1/47 (+1)
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11:08:40 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165702&oldid=164692 * None1 * (+95) /* Length */
11:11:31 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if the zemhill visualization stuff would still run, those plots haven't been updated in a long long time.
11:13:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:BRaInFUCK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165703&oldid=165546 * None1 * (+284)
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11:41:46 <esolangs> [[Setler v2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165704&oldid=164835 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+67) Updated Setler v2
11:57:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TheSpiderNinjas * moved [[Autism]] to [[Autism (Unary)]]: Disambiguation
11:57:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TheSpiderNinjas * moved [[Talk:Autism]] to [[Talk:Autism (Unary)]]: Disambiguation
11:58:42 <esolangs> [[Redcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165709&oldid=147544 * Elbereth * (+1244) yet another revision on this
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11:58:54 <esolangs> [[Autism]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165710&oldid=165706 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+65) Removed redirect to [[Autism (Unary)]]
12:01:33 <esolangs> [[Autism (Esolang)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165711 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+3439) Created new esoteric programming language based on rigid routines and repetitive patterns
12:02:55 <esolangs> [[Autism (Esolang)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165712&oldid=165711 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-3397) Removed specification content, requesting creation
12:03:37 <esolangs> [[Selter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165713&oldid=163173 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+21) Redirected page to [[Setler]]
12:03:55 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165714&oldid=162707 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-63)
12:09:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:BRaInFUCK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165715&oldid=165703 * PkmnQ * (+190)
12:12:40 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165716&oldid=165714 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+2) Added Autism (Esolang) to WIP list
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12:13:03 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165717&oldid=165716 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+23)
12:18:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nguyendinhtung2014 * New user account
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12:32:55 <ais523> ooh, iddi01.epsilon has joined the rarefied ranks of "programs that managed to take the #1 spot on the hill despite two_thirds having a 100% win rate"
12:35:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[?barinfuck]] to [[?brainfuck]]: history merge to ?brainfuck page was created at the wrong title, then moved via cut-and-paste
12:35:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[?brainfuck]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[?barinfuck]]"
12:36:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * undeleted "[[?brainfuck]]": part two of history merge
12:36:27 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165719&oldid=165718 * Ais523 * (+1603) set top revision after history merge
12:39:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165720&oldid=164585 * Ais523 * (+675) /* How to move pages */ new section
12:45:09 <ais523> …it is kind-of astonishing that that seems to be easier than beating two_thirds without overfitting or mirroring (the only non-overfitted programs I've managed to beat two_thirds with were other versions of two_thirds with slightly different decoy setups, creating near-mirror matches where it won a couple of cycles earlier)
12:46:27 <ais523> as an experiment, I tried changing epsilon's decoys to overfit to two_thirds's clear loop, two_thirds still won
12:46:42 <ais523> because the larger decoys slowed it down too much
12:55:53 <fizzie> (The answer to the question about the visualizations, by the way, is no: I don't have the necessary Ruby bits installed for the "modern" plots, or Python 2 for the "legacy" egostats plots. All fixable, of course, but would require some work.)
13:06:49 <esolangs> [[Force of Arch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165721&oldid=157446 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-23)
13:07:11 <esolangs> [[An arch is simply a curve.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165722&oldid=157445 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-24)
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13:07:44 <esolangs> [[Char]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165723&oldid=157443 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-24)
13:08:24 <esolangs> [[Doug]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165724&oldid=157444 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-24)
13:09:37 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165725&oldid=164512 * Elbereth * (+1150) /* 2025 */ While checking IRC logs i noticed this new champion which were not listed here; since i'm totally new to this, trying to work it out was hard, please correct mistakes XD
13:11:46 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165726&oldid=164429 * Ais523 * (+2) /* Decoy */ typo fix
13:18:10 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165727&oldid=165664 * Dmiz * (+31)
13:19:48 <ais523> it's also worth noting that while testing medium, I initially started on the cases for beating high-decoy-count programs before focusing on the cases for beating low-decoy-count programs: one of those draft versions tied with two_thirds and beat the other top programs, but I didn't submit it because it wasn't good against the field, it lost against any program that didn't set a large number of decoys
13:20:31 <ais523> so it wasn't overfitted to the specific program but it was overfitted to beating its general strategy (and somehow it was still only a tie)
13:23:47 <ais523> that got me wondering what the highest-scoring low-decoy-count program was, it appears to be medium (which sets 3 decoys)
13:26:25 <ais523> then three_legged_frog (also 3 decoys) is next
13:26:55 <ais523> so #7 and #12 – looks like low decoy count is not a popular strategy at the top of the hill (which is why it's possible to do well even sacrificing that matchup)
13:29:10 <ais523> on the topic of visualisations, I realised that the best visualisation for showing decoy setups would probably be "average value of each cell position the last time this program adjusts it" – programs normally don't adjust their own decoys after raising them to their full height, even though defensive programs often move over them (note that you would need to be careful for NaN values because some programs never adjust certain tape cells)
13:36:43 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165728&oldid=165727 * Dmiz * (+66)
13:45:29 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165729&oldid=165726 * Ais523 * (+256) /* Cleared decoy detection */ a counter-countermeasure (it seems like, in BF Joust, whenever a strategy is invented there's a very good chance that someone will eventually produce an offset version)
13:48:59 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165730&oldid=165729 * Ais523 * (-1) /* Observing a cell clear early */ fix typo
13:49:02 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165731&oldid=165728 * Dmiz * (+55)
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14:41:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pichatnik * New user account
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14:55:00 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Subset]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165732&oldid=165656 * Aadenboy * (+151) important note about breaking infinite loops
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15:10:46 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Subset]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165733&oldid=165732 * Aadenboy * (+46)
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15:13:15 <dos_user> im testing to see if my quit message works (have logs open in stalker mode)
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15:18:29 <fizzie> I think Libera.Chat might be one of those networks where you have to stay connected for at least 5 minutes before it allows a custom quit message.
15:19:19 <fizzie> It's frustratingly difficult to find any authoritative source for that, but this suggests that's the case: https://github.com/Libera-Chat/solanum/blob/main/doc/reference.conf#L1120-L1123
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15:20:12 <fizzie> Although that particular filter should just clamp it down to "Client Quit", so maybe that's not the reason.
15:21:12 <fizzie> https://github.com/Libera-Chat/solanum/blob/main/modules/core/m_quit.c#L83-L96 -- yeah, if it's "Quit: ...", it was probably actually from the client.
15:23:09 <b_jonas> dos_user: what fizzie says, libera suppresses your quit message if you haven't been present for long enough, so that you can't abuse the quit message itself for spam so easily
15:23:44 <b_jonas> there might be limits to part messages too, I don't know
15:27:09 <fizzie> That's what I thought, but it looks to me from the code that that suppression should have resulted in a quit message of "Client Quit" rather than "Quit: dos_user".
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15:27:53 <fizzie> That's what I got for doing `QUIT :message` immediately.
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16:43:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165734&oldid=165666 * Hotcrystal0 * (+851)
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17:12:22 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165735&oldid=165734 * Hotcrystal0 * (-8)
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17:14:27 <esolangs> [[Iterate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165736&oldid=165657 * Aadenboy * (+313) /* Example programs */ add [[Cat program]]
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19:49:52 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165737&oldid=165717 * Ractangle * (-172)
19:51:25 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165738&oldid=165737 * Ractangle * (-44)
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19:54:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ! * New user account
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20:25:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165739&oldid=165699 * ! * (+315) introduction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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23:21:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165740&oldid=165720 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+139)
23:24:41 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165741&oldid=165719 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+19)
23:31:48 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165742&oldid=165741 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+74)
23:35:17 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165743&oldid=165742 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+70)
23:35:46 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165744&oldid=165743 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+2)
23:37:01 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165745&oldid=165744 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+69)
23:37:46 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165746&oldid=165745 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+0)
23:48:05 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165747&oldid=165746 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+84)
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23:52:17 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165748&oldid=165747 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+69)
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23:55:35 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165749&oldid=165748 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+60)
23:59:02 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165750&oldid=165749 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+69)
00:02:52 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165751&oldid=165750 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+67)
00:05:34 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165752&oldid=165751 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+61)
00:09:06 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165753&oldid=165752 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+67)
00:12:27 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165754&oldid=165753 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+104)
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00:58:27 <esolangs> [[LogicGates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165755&oldid=165695 * None1 * (+4) /* Looping counter */ Fix
00:59:07 <esolangs> [[LogicGates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165756&oldid=165755 * None1 * (+1640)
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01:13:00 <esolangs> [[?brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165757&oldid=165754 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+149)
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01:30:05 <esolangs> [[LogicGates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165758&oldid=165756 * Aadenboy * (+182) /* Commands */ list equivalences for each gate
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02:57:47 <esolangs> [[LogicGates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165759&oldid=165758 * Aadenboy * (+2097) /* Interpreter */ add a lua interpreter
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03:54:55 <esolangs> [[LogicGates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165760&oldid=165759 * Aadenboy * (+27) /* Lua */ credit
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06:18:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sophocrat * New user account
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06:22:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165761&oldid=165739 * Sophocrat * (+184) /* Introductions */ introduced myself
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09:10:16 <esolangs> [[ETC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165762&oldid=165682 * Elbereth * (+151) /* Examples */
09:12:52 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165763&oldid=165702 * Elbereth * (+119) [[ETC]]
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09:53:29 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165764&oldid=147356 * Elbereth * (+8873) /* Programming games */ This section is **seriously outdated**: the last edit is from 2024, and the new "[[BF Joust champions#2025|epsilon]]" was absent here; and i found several high-ranking [[Redcode]] programs by him at the "Koenigstuhl" (one of them is also named epsil
10:36:23 <fizzie> Mhm. I think I've heard it's generally against the etiquette to edit someone else's user page, but that was clearly done in good faith.
11:32:41 <esolangs> [[Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165765&oldid=96284 * B jonas * (+76)
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11:54:10 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165766&oldid=164128 * PrySigneToFry * (+453)
12:23:30 <esolangs> [[Teleporto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165767&oldid=163557 * Hotcrystal0 * (+4) more corrections/polishing
12:25:34 <fizzie> Hah, corporate security sent me a note they'd flagged as "anomalous" when I curl -I'd iddi01's raw-paste.vercel.app URL to figure out why the 429s from zemhill the other day, because allegedly they've seen that site be used to host malware in the past. Had to explain them what I was doing.
12:25:50 <fizzie> Well, maybe they'll start doing BF joust too, who knows.
12:26:01 <fizzie> Shouldn't've done it on the work laptop, I guess, it's just a reflex to use the "scratchpad" terminal key binding for any quick command-line thing.
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13:00:59 <ais523> I'm trying to read a paper, but the code samples are written in C/C++-like syntax except that they allocate memory with new and deallocate it with free
13:01:17 <ais523> this is really aggravating for some reason, I guess my brain finds it hard to overlook the allocator mismatch
13:06:22 <ais523> I guess it's a better reaction to have than *not* noticing something like that
13:09:56 <b_jonas> ais523: how old is the paper?
13:10:11 <ais523> it was presented at a conference in 2013
13:10:20 <ais523> so not ancient enough for new and malloc to be synonyms
13:10:37 <b_jonas> if it were from the 1996 then it would be somewhat more excusable
13:10:58 <ais523> I don't think the syntax is intended to be actual C or C++, just pseudocode
13:11:04 <b_jonas> you mean using the same allocator, right? as in synonymous for trivial types?
13:11:21 <ais523> I should probably have said free and delete, which were actual synonyms at the time
13:11:32 <ais523> hmm… when did delete[] become required to delete arrays?
13:12:31 <ais523> something I've been thinking about for a while is that allocating arrays may want to use a different algorithm than allocating non-arrays, because arrays are often realloced larger and other things almost never are
13:12:45 <ais523> so having separate delete/delete[] may make sense
13:12:52 <b_jonas> the "just pseudocode" codes can be very annoying, it seems that sometimes people do it because their code is buggy but they want to make it harder for a reader to prove that it's buggy. the ill-fated psz interpreter was an attempt to prove that some pseudocode was buggy, only I was very inexperienced so I made some big mistakes in it, but I at least learned a few things about parsing and interpreters
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13:13:35 <b_jonas> that one may count as the first esolang that I created, if you define "created" and "esoteric" broad enough (it's at least definitely a language)
13:13:58 <ais523> it also uses a somewhat quirky indentation style with no newline before } but I can live with that (I even used it myself for something, but can't remember why)
13:14:17 <b_jonas> ais523: is that to fit more easier in a printed journal page limit?
13:14:31 <b_jonas> alternately because a lisp programmer wrote it
13:14:56 <ais523> it isn't that bad as indentation styles go, the whitespace matches Python and yet it's unambiguous
13:15:10 <ais523> but it isn't very popular for some reason
13:16:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * New user account
13:16:10 <b_jonas> wait, why does pseudocode care about deallocation in first place? can't it just leak memory?
13:16:53 <ais523> because the paper is about proving that the memory can be deallocated safely
13:16:57 <int-e> . o O ( maybe it's pseudo code for an allocator )
13:17:20 <ais523> so the exact deallocation timings are relevant
13:18:20 <b_jonas> and it doesn't just happen to use an identifier `free` that refers to something other than the function from the C standard, right? that'd still be a bad idea, but less bad
13:18:41 <ais523> it doesn't explain it, it's presumably meant to be obvious
13:19:48 <ais523> (also I just realised that free and delete were never true synonyms, delete runs destructors, free doesn't)
13:19:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165768&oldid=165761 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+344)
13:20:04 <ais523> …which is presumably why C++ needed new names for the operations in the first place
13:21:03 <b_jonas> yes, that's why I was trying to say "synonymous for trivial types", trivial type implies it has a trivial destructor so it is ok to elide calling the destructor
13:22:41 <b_jonas> having types that aren't trivial is what I consider the main difference between C and C++, and between zig and rust, at least from the design sense rather than the source compatibility sense
13:22:50 <b_jonas> though some people disagree
13:24:14 <ais523> recently I've been working on trying to create memory models
13:24:24 <ais523> atomics, provenance, etc.
13:25:04 <ais523> there are two fundamentally different ways to do it, and C / C++ / Zig cannot be compiled to one of them because there is not enough information in the source code
13:25:35 <ais523> whereas safe Rust can meaningfully be compiled to either but the semantics for unsafe code are very different (with existing unsafe code using the C / C++ / Zig model, unsurprisingly because it's made to be compiled with LLVM)
13:26:11 <b_jonas> you'll have to be more specific because there's more than two ways to create memory models
13:26:27 <b_jonas> though being able to compile rust to it is at least a restriction
13:26:29 <ais523> a good example is with atomic reference counting (std::shared_ptr in C++, Arc in Rust) – in the C / C++ / Zig model a decrement of the release count has to be release-ordered, in the other model it can be relaxed-ordered
13:26:47 <ais523> oh yes, a lot more specificity is needed
13:26:53 <ais523> I'm still trying to work out the details
13:27:50 <ais523> but the basic insight is to define provenance to be "the thing that prevents race conditions from occurring" and then to reverse engineer all its properties from that
13:28:23 <ais523> (note that even single-threaded code can have race conditions if the compiler makes incorrect aliasing assumptions to reorder two instructions that actually depended on each other – this is in effect equivalent to running them simultaneously and getting a race)
13:29:15 <ais523> Rust statically prevents race conditions, but there doesn't really seem to be a consensus on *how* it does that
13:29:46 <b_jonas> if you manage to specify the memory model, can you extend it to multiple user-space processes sharing mapped memory with at least one able to write? or did posix pthreads already do that?
13:30:01 <ais523> the unsafe code in the Rust standard library doesn't have a meaningful set of rules for how much synchronization is needed, for example, so it's been implemented in a somewhat ad-hoc way
13:31:18 <ais523> b_jonas: that's awkward because you can do it trivially if you place constraints on how the processes write from the memory model's point of view, and it's impossible otherwise
13:32:04 <ais523> e.g. you could say "all writes by any process are considered to be, at least, relaxed-atomic writes of each written byte of memory individually" because, on most hardware, it is impossible to do any write that violates that requirement
13:32:28 <ais523> and then you can safely read it with relaxed-atomic reads ("safe" in the sense of not being undefined behaviour, you might of course still get torn reads)
13:32:57 <ais523> but you need some memory model for what the other processes are able to do
13:34:22 <ais523> if, however, you imagine hardware on which a read/write race produces undefendable-against bad effects (UB, the OS killing your process, etc.) then there is no way to read data written by a process unless it offers you some means of avoiding the race condition
13:34:38 <b_jonas> is that the problem you talked about some day, a primitive to do a speculative atomic read that may give a bogus value but no undefined behavior if it races with a non-atomic write
13:34:55 <ais523> it's definitely related, I've been thinking about that one a lot
13:35:52 <ais523> I recently read a blog post which pointed out that the "obvious" algorithm for atomically pushing onto a list (write the current list head into the new element's next pointer, then CAS the new element over the head of the list if the pointer is still correct) is technically incorrect under current provenance rules
13:36:19 <ais523> because you might read an old provenance from the current list head, and the CAS might replace a newer pointer with a different provenance
13:36:33 <ais523> (https://people.kernel.org/paulmck/what-on-earth-does-lifetime-end-pointer-zap-have-to-do-with-rcu)
13:36:43 <ais523> but it viewed it as a problem in the current provenance definition
13:37:34 <ais523> I see it differently, though: when you read from the pointer at the start of the algorithm, you are reading the address from the *current* pointer, but speculatively taking the provenance from the *future* pointer (which might have the same address due to the ABA problem)
13:38:08 <ais523> then you write the future pointer's provenance into the list element, and do the compare-and-swap, now if the swap succeeded the provenance is correct because we read it in advance
13:38:56 <ais523> I think this is the same basic phenomenon, but with much more reasonable-looking code
13:39:15 <b_jonas> oh, mostly unrelated, is it possible to safely do database-style atomic updates on a file with fallocate(fd, FALLOC_FL_COLLAPSE_RANGE, off, len) or fallocate(fd, FALLOC_INSERT_RANGE, off, len), in the sense that if all writing processes adhere to a protocol but occasionally a process can be unexpectedly killed then the file will always stay in a recoverable state? the linux man page doesn't seem to say
13:39:21 <b_jonas> anything about the atomicity guarantees
13:40:47 <ais523> b_jonas: see the glibc documentation for posix_fallocate, it talks about plain fallocate too
13:41:25 <ais523> based on this, it seems like "if the filesystem supports it, it is safe; if the filesystem doesn't support it, posix_fallocate gives you a racy version, plain fallocate gives you an error code"
13:42:00 <ais523> oh, but posix_fallocate doesn't support range inserts/collapses
13:42:20 <ais523> so that documentation isn't useful for your case
13:42:47 <ais523> but my conclusion is probably "any atomicity guarantees would be made by the filesystem, not by the system call"
13:43:46 <ais523> in general the Linux manpages aren't very good, they often seem to get out of sync with actual kernel behaviour (e.g. during the fastest-FizzBuzz thing, multiple people noticed that the behaviour of vmsplice(2) didn't match its documentation)
13:44:14 <int-e> "a sufficiently all-knowing compiler"
13:44:27 <b_jonas> https://sourceware.org/glibc/manual/latest/html_node/Storage-Allocation.html I don't think that's definitive, that only talks about emulating the normal mode fallocate(fd, 0, off, len)
13:45:20 <b_jonas> that doesn't mean it would try to emulate FALLOC_FL_COLLAPSE_RANGE too, and that'd probably be a bad idea to emulate from glibc
13:46:29 <ais523> b_jonas: right, unfortunately I only realised that problem after I told you to look at the documentation
13:46:47 <ais523> (and concluded that any guarantees would probably be made by the filesystem rather than the kernel)
13:46:54 <b_jonas> yes, the file system itself has to support the atomicity too, but only a few file systems support fallocate(fd, FALLOC_FL_COLLAPSE_RANGE, off, len) in first place, so maybe the people who added that mode decided on some minimum requirements in first place for the backends
13:55:07 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165769&oldid=165735 * Hotcrystal0 * (+377)
14:11:38 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165770&oldid=165603 * PrySigneToFry * (-2)
14:37:14 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165771&oldid=153499 * PrySigneToFry * (+686)
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14:51:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165772&oldid=141990 * Aadenboy * (+304)
15:22:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File:Fun video game Wenyan.jpg]]"
15:24:25 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165774&oldid=160499 * PrySigneToFry * (+116)
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15:27:50 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165775&oldid=165774 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
15:28:13 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165776&oldid=165775 * PrySigneToFry * (+13)
15:28:49 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165777&oldid=165776 * PrySigneToFry * (-6)
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15:35:44 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165778&oldid=165777 * Aadenboy * (+701) implement in [[Iterate]] (not that interesting), and golf in Lua (interesting)
16:13:13 <esolangs> [[Iterate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165779&oldid=165736 * Aadenboy * (+37) /* Hello, world! */ replace with an automatically generated program that minimizes loops
16:13:51 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165780&oldid=165427 * Aadenboy * (+37) /* Iterate */ replace with an automatically generated program that minimizes loops
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17:03:30 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165781&oldid=162849 * Aadenboy * (+10136) implement 99 bottles of beer in [[Iterate]]. I'm not gonna list it on the page since it's largely uninteresting but it's a fun showcase of my printing optimizer
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18:37:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * StikyPiston * New user account
18:43:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165782&oldid=165768 * StikyPiston * (+272) Add my introduction
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19:20:34 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165783&oldid=154085 * Aadenboy * (+1133) turns out that this was close to perfect! fixed some bugs and added an output stream of the data. it is extremely slow but it DOES in fact work
19:25:16 <esolangs> [[Frigate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165784 * StikyPiston * (+1425) Created page with "# Frigate Frigate is an esoteric programming language based on Logic Gates! ## Interpreter needed! Currently, Frigate has no interpreter, since I haven't a clue as to how one goes about making one. If you'd like to make one, then please do so. Link it in the is
19:27:29 <esolangs> [[Frigate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165785&oldid=165784 * StikyPiston * (-1204)
19:32:09 <esolangs> [[Frigate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165786&oldid=165785 * Aadenboy * (+1318) translate markdown into wikitext and categorize
19:32:56 <esolangs> [[Frigate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165787&oldid=165786 * Aadenboy * (+2) h3 to h2 and link
19:50:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Iterate/Turing-completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165788 * Aadenboy * (+2005) Created page with "hmm... something's gone wrong. the page for [[BCT]] shows the execution of the program as: <pre> Commands Executed Data-string -------- ------------- 10 1 11 10 11 101 0 1011 * 11 011 10
19:51:47 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165789&oldid=165783 * Aadenboy * (+1307)
19:57:24 <esolangs> [[Fun Video Game]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165790&oldid=165778 * Aadenboy * (-4) /* Lua */ switch to assert to shave off some characters
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20:41:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Iterate/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165792&oldid=165788 * Salpynx * (+358) bug in BCT program, not interpreter (I think)
20:48:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Iterate/Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165793&oldid=165792 * Salpynx * (+73) fix typo, and provide a breakdown
20:52:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Iterate/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165794&oldid=165793 * Aadenboy * (+475)
21:20:51 <b_jonas> apparentliy I should have said "trivially copiable type" rather than "trivial type", because C++ uses "trivial type" for a more restricted and less interesting concept
21:21:04 <b_jonas> I should try to remember this
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22:03:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165798&oldid=165797 * NoWhy * (-6) /* Introductions */
22:12:04 <esolangs> [[User:NoWhy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165799 * NoWhy * (+18) Created page with "Hi I'm Owen Storni"
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02:00:02 <b_jonas> ais523: so I was reading your blog post http://ais523.me.uk/blog/logic-of-shared-references.html . my impression is that it's disconnected: specifically the conclusion part is separate from the rest.
02:01:46 <b_jonas> the conclusion part explains something that you mentioned in IRC, which is that it would be useful to have a type that's like a shared reference but may actually point to a copy rather than the original data. that much makes sense, though there are a lot more details that have to be worked out.
02:03:47 <b_jonas> but the rest of the blog post claims that pirating may be able to solve some other problems, and that part I don't understand at all. you do make at least a very weak case on why pirating might be interesting to explore, but the blog post doesn't manage to explain why pirating can solve the hard problems that you mention and is still implementable with sound rules.
02:08:03 <b_jonas> now as for a few specific bits of the text. you say "What about packed types whose fields aren't Copy?" and those could be useful, but the typical useful case is a packed type similar to the one you mention but with a mutable reference, and I don't think pirating would help there, because if I only have pirate access to such a structure then all I'd be able to do with the mutable reference is shared
02:08:09 <b_jonas> borrow it, at which point the field not being Copy isn't an obstacle. so I'd like to see a better example for why packed type whose fields aren't Copy are relevant here.
02:08:25 <b_jonas> also elsewhere you mention you could hypothetically want "
02:10:06 <b_jonas> the {:?} format specifier Dereffed as many times as possible before using the Debug implementation" in a modified formatting language, but I believe "Dereffed as many times as possible" is something you absolutely aren't allowed to do in Rust because of trait consistency issues, you can't allow code to behave in a different valid way when something isn't a member of a trait such as not Deref. this is
02:10:12 <b_jonas> something you can do in C++, but not in Rust, and that is by design.
02:13:28 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Syntagma]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165820&oldid=144116 * Salpynx * (-8) /* Syntax */
02:16:15 <b_jonas> this doesn't mean that rust pirating can't make sense, only that the blog post failed to explain what rules it would have
02:19:30 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165821&oldid=143973 * PrySigneToFry * (+183)
02:38:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Salpynx * moved [[User:Salpynx/Syntagma]] to [[User:Syntagma]]: moving to mainspace, probably as complete as it is going to get
02:39:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Salpynx * moved [[User:Syntagma]] to [[Syntagma]]: either I made a mistake, or this form is confusing
02:59:44 <esolangs> [[Syntagma]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165826&oldid=165824 * Salpynx * (+398) cats and motivation. Perhaps this is a semi-joke language
03:03:48 <esolangs> [[Syntagma]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165827&oldid=165826 * Salpynx * (+2) italics
03:55:04 <zzo38> I thought of something else about a operating system, which is that sometimes you might be able to receive a message before it is sent, or send a message when the receiver is not ready, without storing a copy of the message in the kernel, because attempting to access the memory used for I/O will block (depending on the kind of access) until it is ready.
03:55:35 <zzo38> In some cases, it also means that the message can be discarded.
03:56:16 <zzo38> For example, if a message it sent but not received yet, then writing to the memory used for output will block but it can be read without blocking. If a message is received but not sent yet, any access to the receiving buffer will block, both reading and writing.
04:29:40 <zzo38> I also thought that memory allocation could be requested from a capability; in this case, the sender will need to have a block of memory already allocated, and when sending it, will give up its own access if it is read/write or will keep its own access if it is read-only, but is allowed to change its own access from read/write to read-only (but not the other way around).
04:32:30 <zzo38> I had also mentioned before, other ideas about computer design and operating system design.
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10:39:24 <sprout> 'a message is received but not yet send'
11:13:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: that sounds like linux async io
11:13:41 <b_jonas> though I'm not sure if that works for sending messages rather than only for regular files
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13:05:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * uploaded "[[File:99tommy.png]]": A 99 bottles of beer-like program for [[Lines are cool]]
13:08:31 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165829&oldid=135828 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+287) yes
13:23:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * uploaded "[[File:Tommyfunc.png]]": A [[tommyaweosme function]] in [[Lines are cool]]
13:25:40 <esolangs> [[File:Tommyfunc.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165831&oldid=165830 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+13)
13:26:27 <esolangs> [[File:Tommyfunc.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165832&oldid=165831 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+22)
13:27:29 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165833&oldid=165829 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+7)
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14:05:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * uploaded "[[File:Tommyconst.png]]": A [[User:Tommyaweosme/constant|tommy constant]] program made in [[Lines are cool]]
14:06:10 <esolangs> [[Lines are cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165836&oldid=165834 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+86)
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14:22:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File:PrySigneToFry's new logo.jpg]]"
14:24:04 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165839&oldid=165524 * PrySigneToFry * (+68)
14:53:16 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165840&oldid=165766 * I am islptng * (+1)
14:55:28 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165841&oldid=165840 * Aadenboy * (+9)
15:23:17 <fungot> int-e: hello, sarah. i am not totally in the dark review, accuses reviewer of piracy"? is that simple, it just jumps back to after the if.
15:23:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld elon enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
15:23:55 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
15:24:01 <int-e> fungot: hello my learned friend
15:24:02 <fungot> int-e: that is in line with the new general. we have serious issues about social fnord and to enhance, the ability, to defend to the death, and they have left the eu,
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16:19:25 <fizzie> Social fnord is a serious issue.
16:20:43 <fizzie> The newfangled LLMs may be objectively better at generating plausible text, or even at stylistic fidelity, but they just wouldn't have the charm of fungot.
16:20:44 <fungot> fizzie: he is in my mind, the government welcomed the first fnord, an italian woman of the year will always be in the eye, in their own for fnord council, using fnord, were frankly and honestly, as best i have ever experienced.
16:21:20 <fizzie> (Not that all the styles are equally successful.)
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17:58:19 <esolangs> [[Iterate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165847&oldid=165779 * Aadenboy * (+709) extending the specification to allow for more granular IO and data control
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18:40:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mouse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165849&oldid=164263 * MijiGamin1 * (+60) /* Newline */
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19:00:13 <ais523> Markov chains have proven to be useful as something to serve to AI scrapers to make them think they have successfully scraped a page, without using too much CPU power
19:00:28 <ais523> (if you give them 403s they just try to come back in a better disguise)
19:16:44 <korvo> Like, n-gram models? I suppose that the main cost is memory bandwidth, just like with other language models.
19:31:45 <ais523> it wouldn't have to be a large one to make it work
19:31:46 <FireFly> I guess you can keep the model simple if your goal is just to generate garbage to feed the scraper
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19:33:49 <korvo> Sure. The universal approximation theorem (or whatever we call it these days) says that a quick model has to be simple.
19:41:52 <b_jonas> I hope this is like video encoding where a simple model is easier to train too
19:49:21 <esolangs> [[Iterate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165851&oldid=165848 * Aadenboy * (+716) /* Loop amounts */ implementation info
19:53:38 <esolangs> [[NONPLUSSED]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165852&oldid=165812 * NoWhy * (+462) spec updates
20:16:11 <esolangs> [[User:Waffelz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165853&oldid=149371 * Waffelz * (+388)
20:16:30 <esolangs> [[User:Waffelz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165854&oldid=165853 * Waffelz * (+14)
20:19:32 <ais523> fungot: I feel like I was missing out by not pinging you earlier
20:19:32 <fungot> ais523: with the eu charter.
20:21:07 <b_jonas> excuse me honorable member fungot, which parliament is this, is it the EU or the English one?
20:21:07 <fungot> b_jonas: fnord fnord fnord,
20:23:35 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165855&oldid=165107 * Aadenboy * (+252) [whilst clapping to the beat] YOU DO NOT NEED TO MAKE AN INTERPRETER/COMPILER FOR YOUR ESOLANG TO HAVE AN ARTICLE ON IT!
20:25:23 <ais523> I've been meaning to write an article at some point about how to write a good esolang, but I'm not quite sure what I'd put in it yet
20:26:12 <ais523> I do know some things to avoid (e.g. creating an esolang idea with serious missing details and hoping that someone else will fill them in is unlikely to work, and even more unlikely to work if there isn't enough of an idea to constrain how the language ends up)
20:29:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165856&oldid=152976 * Corbin * (+142) /* Where to test things out */ Explain how to preview changes without submitting them.
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20:43:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165857&oldid=165856 * Corbin * (+401) /* When to do stuff */ Fans of Sandbox: Have you considered Show Preview?
20:44:31 <korvo> ais523: Well, I'll put it on my list. Right now I'm about to write down the sandbox policy we've discussed. Feel free to tweak it; the "a copy of this policy shall be placed" text is a USA meme.
20:45:30 <ais523> I know there have been some sandboxing problems I've had in the past where Show Preview wouldn't work for one reason or another, but I think they've mostly been at Wikipedia
20:45:50 <ais523> usually it's cases which involve the interaction of multiple pages, so templates and transclusions – we hardly use those at Esolang and I think that's a good tihng
20:48:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165858&oldid=164763 * Corbin * (+724) Tentative sandbox policy. This is an attempt at politely codifying themes that have been discussed multiple times on IRC.
20:50:29 <ais523> korvo: I would probably note that it's OK to draft an esolang article in userspace if you haven't finished it yet (as long as it would be ontopic once it's finished)
20:50:45 <ais523> some people prefer not having the pressure of the page going "live" immediately
20:51:17 <ais523> apart from that, this looks reasonable (although it somewhat dominates the rest of the page – I'm not sure whether there's a good way to avoid that, except perhaps expanding the other policy entries to a similar amount of depth)
20:52:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165859&oldid=164716 * Corbin * (+620) /* Sandbox policy */ new section
20:53:08 <korvo> ais523: I was wondering about that. I don't have a problem with moves, other than the amount of redirects that they create (and the paucity of folks who can delete them). I can add more words to [[esolang:help]].
20:54:02 <korvo> We should probably expand the rest of the policy if we want to balance the page. I don't know if that really matters. It feels like the rest of the policy is compressed because there hasn't been much need to discuss or expand upon it.
20:54:12 <ais523> really, the only real problems with deleting redirects left over after moves are a) an admin has to notice them, which doesn't always happen because there's only one admin actively looking and they often miss things, b) sometimes people move history to the wrong place
20:54:21 <korvo> At the same time, I can go all the way to ''Main article: [[esolang:copyrights]]'' if you want.
20:54:38 <ais523> the author policy was discussed a lot, although much of that was in Esolang's early history
20:54:51 <ais523> I think there's a link to that on the page
20:55:37 <ais523> the copyright policy wasn't really discussed because it was imposed by fiat by the original site owner – that said I suspect most users from the time, and probably most users now, are broadly in favour of it
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20:57:47 <korvo> Even if we all agree upon it, we might need to discuss it to understand situations that arise in the future.
20:58:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165860&oldid=163070 * Corbin * (+324) Clean the sandbox and bump the policy.
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21:04:51 <zzo38> A reason I have drafted some things in user pages is because I did not know what it is called; if it is later known what it should be called then it can be moved to the main space.
21:05:37 <korvo> Well, this doesn't really do anything about [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]]. It does establish that PSTF can't protect those pages by calling them a user sandbox.
21:06:19 <korvo> But I suppose that we don't even really have community consensus that PSTF is spamming, nor is there any essential legal issue with them public-domaining all of the various snippets that they've got under their user page.
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21:06:54 <ais523> I do think we need to have a discussion at some point about whether that's an appropriate use for the site – it's basically an attempt to use it as a social network, which wikis aren't very good at for a number of reasons
21:07:45 <korvo> I would like to understand what to do about [[Square-complete]] and friends. I think that they show a fundamental misunderstanding of why we study computers, and entertaining it for too long will turn us into a script-kiddie den.
21:09:55 <korvo> zzo38: Sure. There's nothing wrong with having user pages, or a long user signature, or any of the other things that teenagers tend to do.
21:10:46 <ais523> korvo: what's your opinion of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Disan_Count ?
21:14:33 <korvo> ais523: Delightful. There's a similar situation in complexity theory where the class P/poly, which can be thought of as PTIME but where each individual size of input gets its own individually-wired circuit, contains Halting. It can't solve all problems, but it can be hardwired to solve specific hard problems.
21:15:49 <ais523> from my point of view, the whole Disan Count thing was probably an instance of the same misconception that lead to Square-complete, and actually produced some interesting results, but that probably wouldn't happen again because the second time wouldn't be substantially different
21:16:08 <ais523> but this makes it very hard to draw a line
21:17:32 <korvo> Should we at least forbid sub-sandboxes like [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Some useless code]]? I can be polite about it.
21:18:21 <korvo> Sure. Plushie-complete and PSTF-complete would be two other examples of questionable concepts.
21:19:18 <int-e> At least the "Disan Count" page is a proper wiki page with a critical discussion.
21:19:59 <ais523> int-e: yes, although the first few versions didn't look liek that
21:21:15 <ais523> this is what it looked like before the criticism: https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Disan_Count&oldid=53609
21:21:37 <ais523> still a proper wiki page
21:21:48 <ais523> (I actually couldn't remember)
21:26:04 <int-e> The Square-complete one is... ugh... well, the 6 properties feel rather random and half of them are rather imprecise. There's no motivation. Even the name makes no sense. But... if the page came with a rationale and a few examples... I might think differently about it?
21:27:41 <int-e> So I guess part of what redeems the Disan Count thing to my mind is that it's minimal, basically a streamlined FizzBuzz.
21:28:16 <int-e> ais523: Oh it was you who added the criticism. Fun.
21:28:28 <ais523> int-e: I'm more likely to remember an article if I've interacted with it
21:29:02 <ais523> <int-e> if the page came with a rationale and a few examples... I might think differently about it? ← hmm, I think this is a good insight that doesn't just apply to that page in particular
21:29:19 <ais523> I might summarise it as "esolangs should have a reason to exist"
21:30:33 <ais523> there are a very wide range of possible reasons – artistic, aesthetic, scientific, engineering – but often there seems to be a meta-reason instead ("I want to make 1000 esolangs") or no reason at all, and in that case the language often doesn't end up very good
21:30:53 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, but earlier you said that this wiki documents existing esolangs, not ones created for the wiki, so if an esolang already exists and perhaps existed before this wiki, why would you judge it on such criteria?
21:31:20 <ais523> b_jonas: I would still judge it (although possibly would document it anyway)
21:31:36 <ais523> I am more likely to write an esolangs.org article about an esolang found offwiki if I find it interesting in some way
21:32:23 <b_jonas> well sure, because your time is valuable
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21:33:31 <ais523> I would put it more along the lines of my attention span / mental energy being valuable
21:33:36 <korvo> By "created for the wiki" I'm thinking of languages that wouldn't exist if the wiki didn't exist.
21:33:55 <b_jonas> but anyway, that is a good criteria in general, just interpret "reason to exist" broadly, like if something seemed like a good idea at the time but then didn't work out it still has a reason to exist
21:34:01 <ais523> you have to generalise the wiki a bit there, to at least cover sites like codegolf stack exchange
21:34:18 <ais523> (although its one-off esolangs normally have more of a purpose than our worst)
21:34:24 <b_jonas> eg. if you were trying to create a variant or subset that's smaller but still Turing-complete but it turns out that it's not Turing-complete then that is still a good enough reason
21:34:37 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, I usually don't post those
21:34:50 <ais523> unless the language ended up interesting some other way
21:35:00 <b_jonas> korvo: sure, but you have to be careful, because there is one good language created for the wiki, the hair saloon one
21:35:14 <ais523> there are some cases where I maybe posted early – in particular I am not 100% sure that Globe fulfils its reason for existence, and if it doesn't and it's unfixable I won't know what to do with the page
21:35:16 <b_jonas> but that's an excuse that we can only use once
21:35:41 <ais523> b_jonas: that was more like having a wiki-inspired name
21:35:54 <ais523> naming things is hard, naming things using suggestions from spambots can thus occasionally be a reasonable idea
21:36:17 <ais523> and well, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is actually a good name for an esolang despite the etymology
21:36:35 <b_jonas> certainly better than a lot of names that you find on the wiki, yes
21:38:40 <ais523> now I'm not sure how to classify things like https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_programming_language_is_a_system_of_notation_for_writing_computer_programs.
21:39:01 <b_jonas> then there's also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Y86 where one of the interesting things about the language is that its original name turned out to be so bad (it got renamed later)
21:39:04 <ais523> (note that the link ends with a period that not all IRC clients will autolink – mine doesn't)
21:39:45 <ais523> b_jonas: funnily enough I have an abandoned esolang called z386
21:40:10 <ais523> which turned out to be too hard to implement, and then was superseded by actual practical research projects
21:40:42 <ais523> (the basic idea was to write a constraint solver that operated on both code and data by plugging x86 syntax into z3)
21:41:12 <ais523> but there's no point in working on it now that things like Minotaur exist: https://users.cs.utah.edu/~regehr/minotaur.pdf
21:41:43 <b_jonas> hmm, is it allowed to advertise tobacco products in the UK?
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21:42:14 <korvo> b_jonas: A gimmick is funny once. Same principle. Not sure how to formalize this without getting horribly gamed.
21:42:17 <ais523> there are laws against it, but I think there are also loopholes
21:42:31 <b_jonas> hopefully https://esolangs.org/wiki/SKOAL isn't against some sort of wiki policy
21:43:28 <ais523> many shops have a list of the names of tobacco products that they sell, this is sufficiently common that I suspect that it's legal, otherwise shops wouldn't risk doing it
21:43:52 <ais523> and the wiki would be less in trouble in that direction due to not actually selling tobacco
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21:48:52 <b_jonas> hmm… do we need policy if you can advertise (non-tobacco) merchandise on the wiki tied into the languages, like if someone's making language mascot plushies, or T-shirts with the source code of fungot?
21:48:52 <fungot> b_jonas: our new prime minister
21:48:53 <int-e> A75. (that's how we abbreviate these things, right?) is one of those ideas that is funny once. And then somebody makes a derivative (A207.) and it looks stupid. :-/
21:49:32 <int-e> (And making the page move is obviously a source of spam.)
21:49:49 <ais523> b_jonas: presumably an abbreviation for "A programming language…"
21:50:09 <int-e> b_jonas: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-10-08.html#ldd
21:50:20 <int-e> (still shorter than the real link)
21:50:53 <int-e> the derivative is linked on that page
21:52:24 <int-e> b_jonas: Obviously that abbreviation is a joke. So obviously I have to add a redirect to the wiki now. (Don't worry, I won't.)
21:52:35 <b_jonas> int-e: https://esolangs.org/?curid=9270 is how I would link it
21:52:57 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm amazed that that works
21:53:30 <ais523> (if you look at the URL after redirection, it indicates why it works, but it looks like an accidental feature rather than an intended one)
21:53:40 <b_jonas> ais523: I use that to link to file pages on Wikimedia Commons often, since they tend to have longer and less directly descriptive titles than eg. Wikipedia pages
21:53:53 <int-e> (I'm also relieved that the page name is out of date.)
21:54:30 <b_jonas> ais523: what? I don't think it's an accident. hold on, it's documented, let me find where. it's the way to link by page ID. page IDs are stable.
21:54:39 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a "Main Page" in the URL
21:54:54 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and *that* might be a bug
21:55:20 <ais523> the correct form of that link is https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?curid=9270
21:55:40 <ais523> but it looks like if you specify both page name and curid, curid wins
21:55:48 <b_jonas> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Parameters_to_index.php#Page_revision_or_version specifically says curid "overrides the value of the title"
21:56:31 <ais523> so https://esolangs.org/?curid=9270 redirects to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=9270 which rewrites to https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=9270 which gives you the page you want
21:56:59 <ais523> but this doesn't look intentional at all, it's only because the website homepage redirects to a wiki page that it works
21:57:53 <int-e> but it does make sense that the page title is ignored when an id is given
21:58:05 <int-e> so... unintentional feature? :)
21:58:06 <b_jonas> ok, but the "index.php" is totally an exposed implementation detail there that shouldn't be in the URL
21:58:57 <int-e> But indeed the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=9270 variant doesn't look like it should work :)
22:00:10 <ais523> b_jonas: I disagree, the index.php is the actual wiki and the only "real" URL, everything else is redirects and rewrite rules
22:00:32 <int-e> If I had to vote on that page being on the wiki, I'd vote against; there's no language there and the whole novelty is that its *name* is defined by external reference whose contents is ever changing.
22:00:33 <ais523> normally you would expect the URL to contain the page you are visiting
22:01:10 <ais523> int-e: well the name of the language and the legal source code and the output are all the same, so it does raise a conceptual issue, which is what you want for joke languages
22:01:19 <ais523> if someone edits the wikipedia page, it invalidates all existing programs and interpreters
22:01:34 <int-e> ais523: It does. The nice things about votes is that they can be subjective ;-)
22:01:43 <b_jonas> ais523: no, the main interface for the wiki is /w/ , it's just called /w/index.php instead so that people can run the wiki even if they're using a custom dumb webserver that they have difficulty configuring and *must* tie the URL to the program that the webserver runs. which, by the way, is a stupid idea in first place, where else would you let the untrusted visitor tell you the name of the executable
22:02:02 <int-e> If I were an admin I'd probably let it stay simply because it's hard to argue against it objectively and it does little harm.
22:02:10 <ais523> b_jonas: what's your opinion of /w/api.php?
22:02:14 <int-e> Different perspective. :P
22:02:40 <ais523> int-e: I can see an argument for listing the page under a title different from the language name
22:02:53 <int-e> But I'd probably delete the derivative (which is just a stub anyway) because the last thing I'd want is more of this idea.
22:03:14 <ais523> a while ago I had the idea of creating a language whose name is negatively long and deletes characters before it
22:03:48 <b_jonas> ais523: there too the ".php" is an implementation detail that shouldn't be there. probably the "api" shouldn't either and it should just trigger that interface based on the value of the action parameter, but I think there's some historical reason where the "API" is newer in MediaWiki than the main web interface and was originally an extension or something.
22:04:20 <ais523> I guess we're getting into philosophical issues about who and what a URL is for
22:04:35 <ais523> and I don't know how to resolve them
22:05:31 <int-e> The real problem with the wiki isn't really that there's pages with weird ideas or underspecified languages that barely manage to specify a syntax and have no substance... it's the volume of them, which has evidently gone up with LLMs.
22:06:23 <ais523> I think we need to do a better job of trying to curate
22:06:42 <int-e> "articles should contain human thought" is a terrible criterion if you want to be objective :P
22:06:48 <ais523> I've been thinking for a while that we should get rid of the existing language list and put the semi-serious language list under the "language list" title – we have a category for the whole set of languages
22:07:15 <ais523> that said, I've been considering trying to write an article about cursed, although I'm not 100% sure it's an esolang it is probably ontopic
22:08:00 <ais523> (it was a language created by an LLM running in agent mode in a loop for three months)
22:08:18 <ais523> just the amount that that would have cost seems esoteric in its own rihg
22:08:47 <ais523> but its semantics would have to be reverse engineered, and apparently it has three interpreters which (given how they were created) almost certainly don't match in behaviour
22:09:38 <ais523> I suspect trying to figure out what LLM code actually does is very difficult, though
22:10:09 <b_jonas> interpreters that don't match in behavior doesn't exclude it, that might just mean some behavior is unspecified and there are implementation differences. as long as you can still write mostly portable programs that require only few changes between the interpreters it's not worse than real practical languages.
22:10:37 <b_jonas> is there no documentation about the language?
22:11:55 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, there's plenty of documentation
22:12:25 <b_jonas> ok, let's back up, who initiated this experiment and why in first place?
22:12:28 <ais523> but, given the circumstances, there's no reason to expect it to match the interpreters or even to be internally consistent
22:12:41 <b_jonas> did they intend to create a language in first place, or was that an unforseen side effect?
22:13:38 <ais523> intended to create a language
22:14:14 <korvo> They replaced Go's keywords. Discussion here (https://lobste.rs/s/ydgmi6/i_ran_claude_loop_for_three_months_it) reveals that it took 3mo and $14k to do this.
22:14:29 <int-e> Is that the LLM version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment
22:14:32 <ais523> looks like the specs are here: https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/tree/zig/specs
22:14:50 <korvo> I mean, they didn't actually fork Go. That would have been easy and understandable. Quoting a great comment there, "The point is not a business advantage. The point is a display of power, a message that humans are soon no longer needed."
22:14:53 <ais523> but there are pages like https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/specs/compiler_stages.md that clearly have no relationship to reality
22:15:57 <ais523> or https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/specs/ffi.md where the examples are written in Rust which again makes no sense in context
22:17:37 <korvo> It's like V but worse. Vanity junk for the church of Algol.
22:18:10 <korvo> Sorry, that was mean. I'm hungry and it's time to take a break.
22:18:52 <ais523> actually this is a lot worse than I expected it to be
22:19:15 <ais523> I arbitrarily picked a file from the test suite, and it looked like this: https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/test_suite/leetcode_comprehensive_suite/strings/125_valid_palindrome.%F0%9F%92%80
22:19:41 <ais523> (the commit message is amazing too)
22:20:37 <ais523> I guess the real question is as to whether a language has even been created?
22:21:17 <korvo> "So here you'll want a … *sigh* … butt loop." https://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1169#comic
22:21:24 <int-e> it's a test-suite, this must be for printf debugging ;-)
22:21:56 <int-e> LOL, https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/test_suite/leetcode_comprehensive_suite/binary_search/704_binary_search_backup.%F0%9F%92%80
22:22:29 <int-e> The "backup" has some actual bunary search looking code in it; the non-"backup" version is just $printf-s.
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22:22:58 <ais523> I've heard that LLMs have a tendency to remove all the actual testing from tests in order to make them pass
22:23:54 <ais523> that does *look* a lot like a binary search, but my experience with LLMs says that they are better at producing output that looks correct than output that is correct
22:24:34 <int-e> Hmm... wasn't there a story where an LLM optimized number crunching code to make it 100% faster, by snooping the reference result from the test suite?
22:24:50 <ais523> in any case the tests do not have any expected output anywhere, as far as I can tell
22:24:50 <b_jonas> ais523: I remember when it was fashionable on programming forums for people to post stupid microbenchmarks about what solution is "faster", like, you know, the fastest way to get the first two characters of a five character long string, in a way where the things they tested didn't even correctly solve the supposed task.
22:24:55 <korvo> A reinforcment-learned agent (RL agent) can only have a single objective. Claude's sole objective is to help the user by being a Helpful Harmless Assistant; Claude Code is merely code-flavored in several ways.
22:25:05 <ais523> the test suite runner just prints a message saying that it's running the test, then returns 1
22:25:11 <ais523> https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/test_suite/leetcode_comprehensive_suite/master_test_runner.%F0%9F%92%80
22:25:21 <ais523> or, I should say, a test suite runner
22:25:45 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, that takes effort, these benchmarks didn't even bother to test if the result is correct. they just flat out measured the time of an operation that gave the wrong result.
22:26:09 <b_jonas> it's like the old joke about the intel processor that can multiply really fast (but gives the wrong result)
22:30:13 <ais523> microbenching correctly is actually really difficult because you keep running into special cases in the processor if you try to run a loop too tightly
22:31:34 <int-e> ais523: I *love* writing a tight number crunching loop in C, changing code elsewhere (say, slightly different initialization) and then seeing the code be 20% faster.
22:31:58 <ais523> int-e: does aligning the microbenchmark to 64 help with that?
22:32:16 <ais523> that's usually my first attempt to stabliise it
22:32:43 <ais523> although I'm usually doing it in asm, I think gcc has a way to align a function
22:33:03 <ais523> (note: this won't necessarily speed it up or slow it down, just helps to make it more consistent)
22:33:12 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, that could be caused by lots of things. one thing you should make sure to stabilize is the alignment of all the data memory accessed within a 4k page, to make sure the L1 cache pattern is the same.
22:33:32 <int-e> I don't have a concrete example right now... it might have. Though on rare occasions it's actually the compiler doing something wildly different.
22:34:50 <int-e> Like, suddenly producing code with 5 fewer spills in the inner loop.
22:35:46 <ais523> register allocation is NP-complete, as such sometimes compilers get it wrong
22:36:15 <int-e> fortunately, for one-off code, you can just run the fastest version without overanlyzing why exactly it's faster than others :)
22:36:21 <ais523> I think you have to at least put your microbenchmark into a non-inlined function in order to stop the rest of the code impacting register allocation decisions
22:36:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, and even writing a decent approximation sounds like black magic to me
22:36:48 <b_jonas> it's one of the parts of the compiler that I have no idea how to write if I had to write one
22:36:48 <ais523> b_jonas: it depends on what you consider decent/indecent
22:36:57 <ais523> I have a plan but I don't know whether it works or not
22:37:02 <int-e> anyway. the point was that I can relate
22:37:48 <b_jonas> and I mean this for a modern architecture like x86-linux, not eg. 6502 with 64k RAM with uniform access time (not counting bank switching)
22:38:19 <ais523> OK, I think my plan doesn't work, that was easy
22:38:49 <ais523> (the basic idea was to start by ignoring register identity and just count how many were needed, but I think even that is not even polynomially approximable)
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