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10:57:01 <ZeroOne> the free www.brainfuck.tk forwarding address I had for http://koti.mbnet.fi/villes/php/bf.php was cancelled due to low traffic. :p
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13:17:34 <{^Raven^}> ZeroOne: what about using cjb.net?
13:22:27 <jix> {^Raven^}: for what?
13:24:28 <pgimeno> <ZeroOne> the free www.brainfuck.tk forwarding address I had for http://koti.mbnet.fi/villes/php/bf.php was cancelled due to low traffic. :p
13:28:10 <pgimeno> let's face it, Brainfuck does not attract a huge sector of public
13:31:38 <pgimeno> maybe things change when jix releases his compiler and people realize that writing BF languages does not mean that execution is slow? :P
14:18:35 <jix> pgimeno: it is released
14:20:29 <pgimeno> oh, I thought you wanted to do some more optimizations to it
14:22:29 <jix> it's alpha-released
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17:45:19 <jix> look at the right picture: http://www.redhat.com/
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17:55:16 <jix> calamari: the map
17:55:22 <jix> take a look at the map
17:55:56 <jix> you don't see it...? ;)
17:56:15 <jix> yes but you don't see what's funny about it?
17:57:00 <jix> well the card is ~15years old
17:57:08 <jix> it has west-germany and the DDR ^^
17:57:36 <jix> redhat -- always up-to-date
17:58:51 <calamari> although, I wonder if you'd notice a United States map error?
18:00:59 <GregorR> Wow, three businesses in the Oregon Territory use RedHat!
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18:02:42 <GregorR> Hmm, would it be funnier if the star was in communist East Germany?
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18:29:41 <int-e> Hi/re/re/re. I hope my ISP doesn't disconnect me again this time.
18:31:36 <GregorR> int-e: Hoi; jix: thanks for that link, that is now hanging proudly on my cubicle wall :P
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18:39:05 <GregorR> Hmm, should we send RH an email starting with "Hey morons,"
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18:51:37 <GregorR> int-e: On the main page they have a picture representing their international business with a map from the cold war era (with West and East Germany)
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18:52:29 <GregorR> (This was a conversation from about 40 minutes ago)
19:03:09 <jix> GregorR: not war... after the war...
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19:03:38 <jix> 1. there was the 2nd world war than there was BDR and DDR
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19:14:17 <int-e> jix: he wrote 'cold war'
19:20:54 <jix> i should read what other people write ^^
19:21:48 <jix> i always ignore the last word in front of a line break...
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23:02:50 <jix> moin calamari
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23:24:26 <GregorR> (Probably not correct Español :P)
23:52:06 <GregorR> Estoy bueno, pero es <place word for Monday here>. ¿Y tu?
23:54:30 <GregorR> ¿Qué hora es por tu? (Almost certainly wrong)
23:54:52 <calamari> what was that command for utf8 ? :)
23:55:30 <GregorR> I use the compose key, alt-e-' = é
23:55:58 <int-e> and I see a iso 8859-1 representation of that.
23:59:04 <GregorR> Portland, OR, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way to be specific.
23:59:10 <int-e> GregorR: did you see my fyb report script?
23:59:39 <GregorR> int-e: Yeah, but I haven't managed to rebuild my interest in FYB enough to integrate it into the main archive yet :P
23:59:52 <calamari> what's the name of our galactic cluster?
00:00:21 <GregorR> calamari: I think it's some boring scientific name.
00:00:27 <int-e> I couldn't build up the energy to change the wiki page to that table either ...
00:00:47 <calamari> I wouldn't doubt it.. lets see if I can find it
00:01:20 <GregorR> What's the name of our universe? Is it just Universe?
00:01:53 <GregorR> Prediction: Despite the meaning of the word "universe", if we find that there are parallel dimensions, we will still call each one a different "universe"
00:01:59 <calamari> the Milky Way is part of the "Local Group"
00:02:51 <GregorR> That's even lamer than some scientific name!
00:03:20 <calamari> and that's part of the "Virgo Supercluster"
00:03:56 <GregorR> puzzlet: BUt the term "Milky Way" has such a bizarre, humans-are-idiots history 8-D
00:04:11 <int-e> well, the moon is made of cheese.
00:04:19 <int-e> and where does cheese come from?
00:04:40 <GregorR> I don't care, I hate cheese.
00:05:14 * GregorR blasphemes the name of the Great Cheese God.
00:12:12 <{^Raven^}> our universe is part of the multiverse, beyond that i'm not sure there is any terminology available
00:26:34 <GregorR> That is not the original definition of the word multiverse, and is a corruption of both words :P
00:27:22 <GregorR> "Universe" was supposed to mean /everything/, no matter how much that is, whether it be multiple dimensions or parallel existances or whatnot.
00:27:56 <GregorR> Hence I suppose my previous prediction has already come true :P
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00:41:34 <cpressey> by "everything" do you include the set of all sets that do not contain themselves? :)
00:42:41 <int-e> Yes. And then I disappear in a puff of logic smoke. Green one.
00:45:55 <GregorR> I was referring to physical existance. But I'm unsure whether that changes the paradox.
00:48:39 <GregorR> You know what I hate? The phrase "life as we know it." Every time somebody wants to argue against the theory of evolution, they use the phrase "life as we know it" hence completely invalidating their argument.
00:50:10 <GregorR> Or rather, argue against non-divine abiogenesis.
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01:06:47 <int-e> paradoxes don't matter to reality.
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03:38:35 <{^Raven^}> GregorR: Do you find the term Omniverse acceptable or vulgar?
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07:53:26 <GregorR> {^Raven^}: I don't find any of them vulgar. Omni- means all, and hence should also encompass everything. But the problem is that there's no such term that's elastic. What they should do is, when they discover something bigger, label THAT the omniverse, then label what WAS the omniverse something else.
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11:33:17 <jix> {^Raven^}: to what?
11:37:41 <{^Raven^}> Definition if Universe and if/what is the larger entitity and terminology use
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16:47:28 <Keymaker> question; can i be connected to other places than irc.freenode.net at the same time?
16:47:38 <Keymaker> (not that i'd had any other channel anyways..)
16:53:28 <grimace_> keymaker: your irc client should allow it...
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16:59:54 <Keymaker> thanks. i'm too lazy to try it since i don't have the need, but i was just curious.
17:28:29 <GregorR> Pff, who goes anywhere but freenode anyway :P
17:28:46 <GregorR> DALnet? DALnet?! Putz on DALnet!!
17:30:04 <jix> i'm on euirc and freenode
17:31:12 <GregorR> It's juuuuust feasable that I was being sarcastic :)
17:32:12 <jix> hmm never thought about that...
17:34:00 <jix> but yes it could be possible
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17:35:56 <jix> wb kipple_
17:45:09 <int-e> hmm. 4 irc servers here.
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17:57:15 <jix> windows is great
17:57:23 <jix> it's the best operating system
18:02:19 <jix> and it's secure
18:02:49 <int-e> jix, are you bored?
18:03:08 <jix> i'm working on my webpage
18:03:23 <jix> i think i'll rewrite it using Visual Basic .NET
18:03:58 * int-e remembers what channel he's on.
18:04:10 <jix> because that's mircosoft compatible and that is very important for everyone
18:04:23 <jix> Wahahahahahahaha
18:04:48 <jix> i just had to laugh...
18:05:42 <int-e> yes. Mad scientists usually do that.
18:07:21 <jix> do mad scientists tell other people the opposite of their own opinion?
18:07:34 <jix> if they do, i think i'm one
18:08:25 <int-e> Well, it depends on the scientist and the people, but inconsistency is part of the job, yes.
18:09:05 <int-e> I mean how are you supposed to stop a determined, logically thinking mad scientist? He has to make mistakes sometimes, otherwise the 'good guys' wouldn't win at the end.
18:25:26 <lament> actually the good guys never win.
18:25:35 <calamari> that reminds me.. need to download Mono for my fall C# class
18:25:41 <lament> there's a mad scientist conspiracy to make it seem like they do.
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19:17:01 <jix> lament: psss... don't tell them about it
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19:25:40 <GregorR> jix: lament has leaked the secret, now he must be killed.
19:25:52 * GregorR dons his ritualistic mask and coke-bottle classes.
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23:58:28 <GregorR> Those of you who were looking at the stupid ad on www.redhat.com yesterday, look again XD
00:16:53 <GregorR> Now they live in a utopia with no political rivalries 8-D
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02:37:34 <Gs30ng> the lang i designed is stupid indeed
02:38:29 <Gs30ng> how could i think i need a stupid operation like 'nandn1'?
02:39:08 <Gs30ng> since i have bitwise NOT and conditional jump, i don't need any NAND thing
02:39:43 <Gs30ng> damn i would rather...
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08:01:31 <tokigun> i've changed the design of my esolang page. http://dev.tokigun.net/esolang/index_en.php
08:03:09 <GregorR> Gregor's opinion on design is irrelevent.
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18:47:09 <calamari> hrm.. input seems to be resetting on step/run, bug :(
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18:52:24 <GregorR-L> Here I am in the OSCon session for the wold's foremost esoteric language.
18:53:21 <int-e> s//{}/;eval's/{/{$_/;'x ord(getc);print
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01:39:22 <Gs30ng> is there any brainfuck-brother-lang which has many-dimensional memory space?
01:39:48 <Gs30ng> i think there should be one like that but can't find it
01:40:27 <int-e> it seems obvious but I know none. it spoils the minimalistic nature of the language
01:41:13 <Gs30ng> well, what if we can choose the dimension with > and <
01:41:35 <int-e> why not just make ^ and v operations?
01:42:14 <int-e> well, I'm not sure how useful this is. I like brainfuck as it is.
01:43:00 <Gs30ng> well, we can make it have endless dimensions with approximately 10 instructions
01:43:51 <Gs30ng> like, each dimension has only 0 and 1 coordinate
01:44:27 <int-e> it's easier than that with 10 instructions - <> stay as is, */ choose next or previous dimension.
01:44:46 <int-e> for the <> instructions.
01:46:47 <Gs30ng> but i think there already would be the one like that
01:47:07 <Gs30ng> tons of brothers of brainfuck
01:47:26 <int-e> Hmm I never really cared.
01:48:47 * int-e wonders if there will ever be an Unlambda 3
01:59:13 <Gs30ng> Damn i feel like i've once saw something like that in my dream but cannot remember what was that
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02:39:07 <Gs30ng> so it's a bf with 4 dimensional memory space?
02:58:00 <lament> i really like the idea of 2-dim brainfuck
02:58:05 <lament> has it been done before?
02:58:22 <lament> it does seem extremely obvious now :)
02:59:05 <lament> the nice thing about 2-dim as opposed to 4 or whatever is that it's nice and visual
03:02:25 <lament> actually now that i think about it, it has practically no advantages over regular brainfuck.
03:27:21 <Gs30ng> well i think there's already one with 2-dim memory space
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05:46:39 <calamari> Gs30ng: 99% sure there is already at least a 2-D BF
05:47:16 <Gs30ng> i'm sure that i saw a bf with 2d memory
05:47:50 <calamari> didn't read carefully enough.. oops
05:47:50 <Gs30ng> you meant the code space?
05:48:02 <calamari> yeah.. looks like Chris already found it?
05:49:15 <Gs30ng> still i'm not sure that there would be any bf with unbounded dimensions
05:50:12 <Gs30ng> just like int-e said, introducing 2 instructions choosing next or previous dimension for <> instructions
05:50:41 <Gs30ng> or we don't even need <>
05:51:08 <Gs30ng> since we have unbounded dimensions
05:51:16 <calamari> yep, but then are you still multidimensional with memory? :)
05:51:30 <calamari> might as well be a regular 1-d array then
05:51:50 <Gs30ng> well, an address of a cell could be like
05:51:59 <Gs30ng> (1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1)
05:52:18 <calamari> as far as bf variants goes, brainfork seems interesting
05:52:52 <calamari> although it seems like the same functionality should be able to be written in pure bf
05:57:05 <Gs30ng> i'm thinking about multidimensional stack
05:58:37 <calamari> I was thinking about graph memory the other day
05:58:48 <calamari> not sure how well that'd work though :)
05:59:25 <Gs30ng> sounds like befunge code space or something
05:59:59 <calamari> I think there is another term but I've forgotten it
06:00:53 <calamari> think of a map with cities on it, connected by roads.. the cities are vertices, the edges are roads, the whole thing is a graph
06:02:50 <calamari> man, smell something burning.. hope that's just the lamp
06:03:29 <Gs30ng> i would make a lang with that name
06:03:35 <calamari> I think the lamp just burned a bug.. :)
06:03:50 <calamari> hehe, that's what you can call your bf variant
06:03:59 <Gs30ng> can i burrow the lamp?
06:07:28 <Gs30ng> hmm it stunk... sounds like a huge bug
06:56:16 <GregorR> I think I'll release OBLISK-1.0.5 during OSCon tomorrow.
07:10:38 <calamari> I suppose you're going, since it's near you? :)
07:12:06 * calamari didn't realize Oregon was a big spot for open source.. would have figured some place in California would have created a bigger draw
07:30:26 <GregorR> And I'm only going because I managed to get a free pass, they retail in the 1000s.
07:31:07 <calamari> so much for open source being cheap, heh
07:47:49 <GregorR> Furthermore, about 60% of the exhibitions are proprietary.
07:47:56 <GregorR> So much for open source being open, eh?
07:48:32 <GregorR> I would contend that that alone is a fantastic reason for promotion of the term Free Software.
07:49:03 <GregorR> I don't think Oracle or Intel would be at FSCon
07:56:43 <calamari> you can bring a linux cd for the sony playstation and load up the wiki on the big screen hehehe
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19:03:11 <pgimeno> bbiafm? does the "f" stand for the same as in FVWM?
19:04:13 <int-e> that's 'be back in a few minutes', apparently
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19:32:42 <lament> it'd be interesting to have a language with no finite datatypes.
19:33:51 <lament> perhaps with infinite lists of integers as the only first-class values
19:36:59 <lament> or maybe it'd be too much like data-oriented.
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19:45:35 <mtve> lament: it was here afair, and i'm sure you've seen this http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html
19:55:20 <mtve> nice, isn't it?
19:55:54 <int-e> lament: kayak did that, sort of.
19:56:27 <int-e> well, it has infinite lists of bits as its only datatype. but I'm not sure what you're after
19:59:45 <lament> but i was thinking more like haskell-style
20:01:08 <lament> mtve: i like the time machine idea more
20:01:14 <lament> although they're equivalent most likely
20:06:26 <lament> (in effect: call a function; if it returns, do one thing; if it fails to halt, do another thing)
20:12:22 <lament> if (find_goldbach_counterexample()) == BOTTOM)
20:12:34 <lament> puts("Goldbach proven!");
20:13:43 <lament> all function calls are executed by wrapping them in a time machine module that returns the result to the same point in time
20:13:52 <lament> therefore all function calls are O(1)
20:14:13 <lament> and all functions return (but they may return bottom)
20:16:05 <lament> this would be a fun extension to add to existing languages.
20:16:10 <lament> Once time travel is invented, naturally.
20:17:09 <int-e> hmm. how do you deal with energy issues?
20:17:25 <int-e> there might not be enough to send an infinite number of time machines back in time
20:17:44 <int-e> not to mention the logistic issues of collecting the results - wait - ok, that can be dealt with actually.
20:18:03 <lament> collecting results is the easy part
20:18:14 <lament> the annoying part is that every time something fails to halt, you lose a time machine
20:18:16 <int-e> I think I should read Goedel, Escher, Bach again.
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20:21:33 <lament> i wonder how amusing would be to actually implement that
20:21:55 <lament> wait a few seconds for the functions to halt before deciding they don't
20:22:46 <int-e> how do you make a time machine that's 100% reliable?
20:23:11 <lament> presumably it won't be physical
20:23:17 <mtve> time travel idea could be reduced to "information transfer back in time", even on a short period of time, and even one bit of information.
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20:23:50 <lament> still, if it's physical
20:23:54 <mtve> perhaps it should not consume energy at all.
20:23:55 <lament> the time machine has to contain a computer
20:24:06 <lament> that is able to run indefinitely
20:24:13 <lament> survive heat death of the universe, etc
20:24:23 <lament> so it can't consume energy
20:24:46 <lament> perhaps instead of a time machine, you can just ask god
20:24:59 <lament> "does this thing halt, and if so, what's the return value?"
20:25:06 <lament> call the language Vatican :)
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20:25:18 <lament> then you don't have energy issues
20:25:34 <lament> although perhaps possible faith issues
20:28:02 <mtve> machine, computer, too complicated. maybe it's just some particle that can travel back in time in a short range, and an emitter plus an absorber. looks more realistic to me :)
20:30:04 <mtve> with only one bit you still can get more bits thru overlapping "travels". then you can greatly reduce classes of problems. let's say all modern crypto would collapse and so on.
20:38:39 <int-e> information hiding would become pointless anyway
20:43:41 <lament> like it isn't already.
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22:03:38 <Keymaker> tokigun: good job with the new esoteric section of your page
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16:06:22 <{^Raven^}> is it just me or have there been a *lot* of netsplits recently?
16:30:32 <Gs30ng> well i haven't seen anything like that
16:30:51 <Gs30ng> maybe you can check the chat log
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18:00:18 <calamari> hmm.. so if I understand it correctly, the basis for lambda calculus is just f(x)=M(x), where x=N, so M(x)=M(x=N)=M(N)
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19:01:55 <calamari> S = lxyz.xz(yz) =? (lxyz.xz)yz =? xz[xyz=yz] =? xz[yz]
19:04:27 <int-e> S = lxyz.xz(yz) is an abbreviation for (lx.(ly.(lz.((xz)(yz)))))
19:06:31 <int-e> Sabc = (((Sa)b)c) = ((((lx.(ly.(lz.((xz)(yz)))))a)b)c) = (((ly.(lz.((az)(yz))))b)c) = ((lz.((az)(bz)))c) = ((ac)(bc))
19:06:45 <int-e> for arbitrary terms a, b, c.
19:14:15 <calamari> K = lxy.z = (lx.(ly.x)y), Kab = (lx.(ly.x)a)b = (ly.a)b = ly.b ?
19:14:54 <int-e> no, the ly disappears in the last step
19:15:08 <int-e> and the b with it, leaving a
19:15:31 <calamari> hmm,.. don't think I follow that
19:15:33 <int-e> Ka is a constant function taking one argument and giving a.
19:16:10 <int-e> (ly.a)b means that you take the term a and replace every y in it by b. as it turns out, there is no y in the term so the b is just eaten.
19:18:49 <calamari> (ly.a)b = a[y=b] = a[b] = ??? = a
19:19:46 <int-e> a[y=b] is just a notation that denotes the term a, with every occurence of y replaced by b.
19:19:50 <calamari> hmm.. I don't understand the definition then.. I have (lx.M)N = M[x:=N]
19:20:48 <int-e> hmm. well, it's (ly.a)b = a[y:=b] = a then.
19:21:32 <calamari> interesting.. I need to see if I can figure out how that works
19:33:02 <calamari> it seems like there is a situation like this with regular functions, but I can't remember how to write it
19:34:26 <calamari> thanks for your explanations and corrections
19:36:17 <int-e> lambda calculus was originally a notation for functions without having to invent a name for each. instead of 'the function f, where f(x) = <complicated term>' you could write 'the function \lambda x.<complicated term>'.
19:37:27 <calamari> function notation has been ingrained in me all my life.. it's hard to let go. :) trying tho!
19:38:07 <calamari> so f(x,y,z)=xz(yz) seems to make sense now :)
19:41:39 <calamari> xy(yz) = x*y*z^2 ? I'm assuming it was just chosen to be written that way
19:42:05 <int-e> sorry. let's build this from bottom up
19:42:44 <int-e> you have a set of symbols that serve as variables and you define terms in the following way:
19:43:03 <int-e> 1. every variable is a term. in our case, x, y, and z are terms.
19:43:27 <int-e> 2. if t is a term and x is a variable, lx.t is a term.
19:43:42 <int-e> 3. it t and r are terms then (tr) is a term.
19:43:55 <int-e> 2. is called lambda abstraction. 3 is called (function) application.
19:44:30 <int-e> for convenience we write xyz instead of ((xy)z), that is, function application is left associative.
19:45:30 <int-e> t(r), in the usual notation.
19:46:12 <int-e> that is, the idea is that t is a function and r is substituted for the first argument of that function
19:47:00 <int-e> as can be seen in the eta-reduction rule, (lx.t)r = t[x:=r]. (lx.t)r is a function application built of the function (lx.t) and the argument r.
19:59:58 <jix> Ka => lb.a ?
20:03:51 <int-e> there's an additional complication - (lxy.xy)y is not ly.yy. instead you have to rename the variable in the lambda first (that's called a bound variable), for example to z - (lxz.xz)y and then apply alpha-reduction, to obtain lz.yz. This renaming of bound variables is called beta-conversion.
20:04:10 <int-e> forget all I said about eta-reduction, I don't know where my head was then - it's alpha-reduction.
20:04:27 <jix> SKKa => Ka(Ka) => a?
20:04:30 <int-e> eta-reduction is the rule lx.tx = t.
20:05:07 <int-e> because SKKa = Ia = a
20:06:00 <jix> what letter is η ?
20:07:21 <int-e> hmm. maybe we should use \ for lambda like the Haskell folks.
20:07:41 <jix> what about λ?
20:08:13 <jix> int-e: /charset utf8 (in xchat)
20:08:18 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey.
20:08:36 <int-e> then I won't understand the other half of my chat partners
20:09:27 <jix> int-e: you are from germany?
20:10:01 <jix> but do you speak german on freenode?
20:10:14 <jix> because in xchat charsets are network-lokal
20:10:31 <jix> but \ is easier to type
20:11:12 <jix> ü => ü
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20:12:47 <int-e> seems to be better now
20:14:21 <calamari> I didn't change my term until after you guys did
20:14:26 <int-e> ß is the s-z ligature
20:15:09 <jix> œ œ ?
20:15:16 <jix> hah oelig => ölig *g*
20:15:42 * int-e wonders which font xchat took that fl ligature from
20:16:03 <jix> there is no fi in html
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20:16:17 <int-e> is there an ffllig?
20:16:21 <jix> alt-shift-l
20:16:29 <jix> int-e: not in html
20:16:39 <jix> alt-shift-l on a mac-de keyboard is fllig
20:16:57 <jix> ok back to λ
20:17:09 <jix> church integers...
20:17:27 <jix> zero is λsz.z ?
20:17:36 <int-e> that lambda looks awful, too.
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20:17:52 <int-e> although I prefer \fx.x
20:18:04 <int-e> f for function, x for argument
20:18:27 <jix> and one is one is *LAMBDA!!!!OMG!!!*sz.sz ?
20:19:00 <jix> hmm ' ' as lambda *g*
20:19:06 <int-e> and two is \fx.f(fx)
20:19:22 <int-e> and succ is \afx.f(afx)
20:19:25 * calamari needs to ignore and understand that first stuff first .. hehe
20:19:52 <int-e> and add is \abfx.af(bfx)
20:19:53 <jix> ok need to understand succ
20:22:47 <jix> SUCC ONE => (\afx.f(afx))(\sz.sz) => \fx.f((\sz.sz)fx) => \fx.f(fx) ... ok works
20:23:08 <int-e> hmm. mul is \abf.a(bf)
20:23:38 <jix> mul is replacing the f of one number with the other number right?
20:24:12 <jix> i thought i'd never understand lambda-calculus...
20:27:55 <calamari> int-e: so in your Sabc example WAY up there you are going left to right? I assume this means parethesis are ignored in favor of left associative?
20:28:00 <int-e> booleans are funny, too. true is \xy.x, false is \xy.y. if is \xyz.xyz (or just \x.x). a test for zero is \n.n(\x.false)true = \n.n(\xyz.z)(\xy.x)
20:28:58 <int-e> no, the parentheses are not ignored at all
20:29:06 <calamari> otherwise, I'd think the \z would be converted first rather than \x
20:29:18 <calamari> since it is more deeply nested in parenthesis
20:29:27 <int-e> I need to find a subterm of the form (\x.t)r to apply alpha-reduction.
20:29:53 <calamari> does alpha reduction actually reduce anything? seems like it just rewrites
20:30:19 <int-e> well, that depends
20:30:21 <jix> (\abc.acb)(\xy.x) => (\bc.(\xy.x)cb) => (\bc.c) so \abc.acb is NOT?
20:30:30 <int-e> in its simple form it reduces the number of lambdas left
20:31:02 <calamari> because I wouldn't know what to do with t[x:=r].. seems useless
20:31:14 <jix> hmm ok i'm trying to write a xor
20:31:48 <calamari> perhaps I should ignore alpha reduction and just use beta and eta?
20:32:41 <int-e> alpha reduction is the core of the lambda calculus
20:33:26 <int-e> it wouldn't be interesting without it - you wouldn't be able to do all those computations with it that make it turing complete.
20:33:32 <jix> hmm is \abtf.a(bft)b xor?
20:34:03 <int-e> hmm. no, you need (btf) at the end
20:34:55 <calamari> ((((lx.(ly.(lz.((xz)(yz)))))a)b)c) = (((ly.(lz.((az)(yz))))b)c), why is lx removed and not lz? that's what's confusing me
20:35:08 <int-e> alternatively, you can use \a.a(not)(id) = \a.a(\xyz.xzy)(\x.x)
20:35:32 <int-e> I reduce the subterm ((lx.(ly.(lz.((xz)(yz)))))a)
20:35:55 <int-e> which is of the form ((lx.some term)a)
20:36:26 <int-e> there is no subterm of the form ((lz.some term)some other term), so I can't reduce the lz at that point
20:37:23 <int-e> the line starting with 'alternatively' was for jix
20:38:41 <jix> and: (\a.a ID (K FALSE))?
20:39:16 <jix> yes i said 'and:' ;)
20:39:28 <jix> hah that's cool
20:39:47 <jix> hmm what about digital church like numbers
20:40:38 <jix> church numbers are base 1 (all "digits" count 1)... what about base 2..
20:41:32 <int-e> there are a few ways to build lists ...
20:44:48 <int-e> nil = \f.f false. cons = \a l.\f.f true a l would work, for example. [nilp = \l.l(\t.t(\xy.false)true), etc]
20:45:54 <calamari> or I should get used to (\x.x)a = a
20:46:18 <calamari> yay.. getting things started then :)
20:52:36 <int-e> = ((\y.by)a) (two different alpha-reductions possible)
20:57:06 <int-e> but it's confluent - if a term reduces to two different terms, it's possible to reduce those terms to the same term again.
20:58:08 <calamari> and (\x.xa)b = b by that eating rule
20:58:23 <int-e> no, (\y.by)=b (by eta), so (\y.by)a = ba
20:58:44 <int-e> and (\x.xa)b = ba by alpha-reduction
20:59:36 <int-e> as long as t does not contain x. obviously
21:02:10 <calamari> is there a simpler case of alpha reduction? I do not understand (\x.xa)b = ba
21:02:43 <calamari> or is that just the simplest case?
21:02:48 <jix> it's simple
21:03:55 <int-e> the simplest case is (\x.x)a = a.
21:04:54 <int-e> but what you actually do there is that you take the term 'x' (the right side of \x.x) and replace every occurence of x (that's the letter on the left side of \x.x) by a (that's the term following the (\x.x))
21:05:12 <jix> lambda rules!
21:09:51 <jix> hmm i'll try to do a -1
21:10:12 <jix> that's not as easy as +1/SUCC
21:10:33 <int-e> you can make a function that maps 0 to 0 and every other number n to n-1
21:10:49 <int-e> and it is an interesting task indeed.
21:13:02 <calamari> Ka = (\xy.x)a = (\x.(\y.x))a = \y.a
21:14:38 <calamari> just to make sure \abcdef.g=g?
21:15:14 <int-e> (\abcdef.g)xxxxxx = g
21:16:06 <calamari> oh right.. need some inputs there :)
21:26:48 <calamari> KK = (\xy.x)(\xy.x) = (\x.(\y.x))(\x.(\y.x)) = \y.(\x.(\y.x)), as above no prob
21:30:27 <calamari> SS = (\xyz.xz(yz))(\xyz.xz(yz)) = (\x.(\y.(\z.xz(yz))))(\x.(\y.(\z.xz(yz)))) = \y.(\z.(\x.(\y.(\z.xz(yz))))z(yz))
21:31:08 <calamari> coolness. I think I have alpha reduction down.. took me long enough :)
21:33:02 <calamari> that \xy expansion comes in very handy.. thanks for that
21:35:21 <jix> KK is wrong...
21:35:24 <jix> KK = (\xy.x)(\xy.x) = (\x.(\y.x))(\x.(\y.x)) now you have to rename one of the K terms (\x.(\y.x))(\a.(\b.a)) = \b.(\x.(\y.x))
21:36:07 <jix> you can reuse y?
21:36:11 <jix> in one term?
21:36:27 <jix> oh you can use it because it isn't used inside...
21:36:35 <int-e> you just have to be careful with unbound occurences of a variable
21:39:40 <int-e> basically \x.t introduces its own scope for the variable x - namely the term t. you have to be careful when alpha reduction would change the scope of a variable as in (\xy.xy)y where a globally scoped y would become locally scoped in \y.yy.
21:39:51 <int-e> in that case you need to rename the inner variable.
21:40:02 <int-e> none of that happens in the KK example
21:40:47 <jix> if i have a x and a (\x. bla) in the same scope.. i can't use the outer x in the bla code right?
21:41:10 <int-e> right, that would be shadowed
21:41:14 <jix> and if i want to use it i have to rename the inner x to something different
21:41:29 <int-e> to reuse programming language vocabulary (as I did with scoped)
21:49:33 <jix> maybe thinking of (\x.x(\x.y))a => (\.a(\x.y))a => a(\x.y) helps
21:51:20 <jix> yes you remove the x from the left side of the . and replace it on the right side
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21:52:00 <jix> then the left side is empty.. well if it's empty there is no lambda so you can remove it
21:52:07 <jix> if it confuses you just ignore it
21:52:08 <jix> moin Keymaker
21:52:27 <Keymaker> i've got couple of interesting ideas
21:52:51 <Keymaker> (note: they'll be revealed if ever ready)
21:54:34 <calamari> hmm yeah it'd be a(\a.y) in my original anyways
21:54:57 <calamari> but I guess \x stays unchanged
21:58:08 <calamari> \var is not modified by alpha ?
21:59:49 <calamari> if so, Iota i = \x.xSK = \x.x(\xyz.xz(yz))(\xy.x) = \x.x(\x.(\y.(\z.xz(yz))))(\x.(\y.x)) = (\x.(\y.x))(\x.(\y.(\z.(\x.(\y.x))z(yz))))
22:00:26 <int-e> yes the \x stays unchanged
22:00:30 <calamari> don't want to go on if that is wrong tho :)
22:00:35 <int-e> and also all x inside the \x
22:00:58 <calamari> can you give an example of that last thing?
22:01:16 <int-e> but I don't know what you did to that i
22:01:41 <jix> (\x.x(\x.xy))a => a(\x.xy) but (\x.x(\y.xy))a => a(\y.ay) right?
22:01:42 <calamari> it's an Iota i, defined as \x.xSK
22:02:10 <int-e> what did you do in the last step?
22:02:27 <calamari> int-e: I replaced x by (\x.(\y.x))
22:03:01 <jix> thats saying I == K
22:03:17 <int-e> \x.xSK is \x.(xSK)
22:03:18 <calamari> int-e: it seems like a valid alpha
22:03:40 <int-e> not (\x.xS)K as you interpreted it
22:03:48 <jix> oh i thought x == (\x.(\y.x))..
22:03:56 <jix> i thought you said...
22:04:10 <calamari> oic.. I thought it was left associative..
22:04:13 <jix> (\nxy.n (\abc.b(a c c)) (\ab.y) i x) << is this a PREV ?
22:04:26 <jix> and is there a lambda calculator?
22:05:18 <jix> oh should be I
22:05:43 <jix> the PREV i saw was much longer and complicated
22:05:48 <jix> so i think i'm wrong
22:08:35 <int-e> I think it will fail on 2; you'll need to deal with real pairs
22:09:10 <int-e> pairs can be represented as pair := \abx.xab; with first = \a.a true and second = \a.a false.
22:11:00 <jix> hmm for me it works with 3
22:11:14 <int-e> maybe I'm missing something
22:11:50 <jix> but manual reduction isn't always 100% correct.. i need a program to reduce lambda expressions
22:12:16 <calamari> Iota i = \x.xSK = \x.(xSK) = \x.((xS)K) = \x.((x(\xyz.xz(yz)))(\xy.x))
22:12:44 <int-e> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/cl.html
22:12:46 <calamari> but then I'm not sure I can reduce anything.. can I ?
22:12:58 <int-e> calamari, no you can't
22:15:29 <jix> int-e: the interpreter has only combinatory logic terms no way to enter lambda terms.. do i miss something?
22:16:19 <int-e> I missed that the Lambda calculus interpreter link on that page is broken :(
22:16:53 <int-e> http://ling.ucsd.edu/~barker/Lambda/
22:17:46 * int-e has his alphas and betas mixed up, too, apparently
22:17:53 <int-e> it's been too long.
22:17:59 * int-e shouldn't trust his memory
22:18:29 * calamari makes a quick eraser mark.. there fixed!
22:18:43 <calamari> thanks a lot for explaining this in detail
22:19:20 <int-e> http://www.phost.de/~stefan/Files/ has a lambda interpreter, too
22:19:49 <int-e> i'm sure there are others
22:20:18 <int-e> jix, I think you're leaving out parentheses in your reductions for that PREV.
22:21:03 <jix> the first lambda interpreter has needs parantheses for every application
22:22:44 <jix> and the 2nd one refuses to compile.. redefines getchar...
22:23:07 <jix> scanner.cc:67: error: new declaration 'char getchar()'
22:23:08 <jix> /usr/include/stdio.h:270: error: ambiguates old declaration 'int getchar()'
22:23:58 <int-e> yes I see that. interesting.
22:25:34 <int-e> predates namespaces, too.
22:29:03 <int-e> http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/lambda-2.8-my.zip
22:30:00 <int-e> hmm, your PREV works.
22:30:26 <int-e> don't know what I did wrong when I tried it.
22:32:28 <int-e> there wasn't much to update in that program - I renamed getchar and ungetchar and added a bunch of using namespace std.
22:32:43 <jix> hmm i think if i show this to my friends they will think i'm crazy
22:32:57 <int-e> I'm still surprised Stefan used C library function's names there.
22:33:24 <int-e> (I know him personally)
22:34:17 <jix> is it possible to hack readline into the app?
22:34:31 <int-e> you might enjoy the standard library, it has an even shorter version of a predecessor function
22:34:33 <jix> i hate command lines without working cursor keys...
22:34:39 <int-e> (not much shorter though)
22:34:54 <int-e> I'm sure it's possible. I won't do it though.
22:35:13 <jix> and i don't know c++
22:35:38 <int-e> it uses readline here
22:36:00 <jix> actually it doesn't find my readline... :(
22:37:32 <jix> ok it compiles with readline now
22:40:17 <jix> ok but i understand how the stdlib pred works
22:40:33 <jix> same idea as mine but nicer implementation
22:45:21 <int-e> some of these macros were created by me actually, we worked on them together.
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22:51:59 <jix> hmm the c++ lambda app is usefull for generating lazy-k code too
22:52:21 <jix> and it's even better for debugging it
22:53:41 <int-e> hey, apparently that predecessor thingy was created by me, I even got credit :)
22:54:21 <jix> but it uses bruteforce for generating numbers... lazier uses <mul< 8 5 for 40... which is shorter than 40....
22:54:26 <int-e> it's also sort of useful for creating unlambda programs
22:54:44 <jix> lazy-k is better than unlambda
22:54:59 <jix> lazy-k has only s k and i...nothing else
22:56:27 <jix> ski <quicksort>
22:56:27 <jix> Segmentation fault
22:56:28 <int-e> our favourite at the time was the power operator ... \x y.y x
22:57:53 <jix> maybe ski tries to expand the recursion..
22:58:05 <jix> if it does it's useless for lazy-k
22:58:19 <jix> lazier has no problems with recursion
22:59:21 <int-e> lambda> ski (\x.x x x)(\x.x x x)
22:59:21 <int-e> (S (S I I) I (S (S I I) I))
22:59:21 <int-e> lambda> (\x.x x x)(\x.x x x)
22:59:21 <int-e> Auswertung abgebrochen nach 2733 Schritten.
23:00:24 <int-e> quicksort is cheating
23:00:40 <int-e> it's working with recursive macro expansion
23:01:00 <jix> that is cheating
23:03:57 <jix> greater than 0 test: (?n t f. n (?x.t) f)
23:04:45 <jix> and iszero if you swap t and f
23:05:22 <jix> and its shorter than the stdlib iszero
23:14:16 <jix> i've an idea for a fast div by 2
23:14:34 <jix> oh and the stdlib div is cheating too...
23:15:11 <int-e> the list div in listop.la isn't though
23:20:44 <jix> it's slower than ndiv but it's shorter (only for div by 2
23:20:49 <jix> (?n x y.n (?a b c.b(a c b)) (?a b.y) (?x.x) x)
23:20:59 <jix> and it floors
23:21:55 <jix> (?n x y.n (?a b c.b(a c b)) (?a b.y) x (?x.x)) ceils
23:24:13 <int-e> ah. thanks, I know why I had trouble with understanding the PREV code now
23:24:34 <int-e> I was somehow thinking of numbers as fffffffx instead of f(f(f(f(fx))))) ...
23:24:46 <int-e> which makes no sense at all
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23:25:40 <int-e> and that's slower than ndiv?
23:25:56 <jix> but it's shorter
23:26:09 <int-e> I'd exepect it to be faster actually
23:27:33 <int-e> it'll be hard to create a generic div using that scheme though
23:28:03 <int-e> you'll probably end up with creating an infinite list of some sort, too - probably made of id and succ elements.
23:28:41 <jix> (?n x y.n (?a b.b(a (?z. b (x z)))) (?a.y) x) is sum of [0..n]
23:29:15 <jix> hmm i'm unnormal...
23:30:06 <jix> i don't now any other 14 years old person who has fun writing lambda terms....
23:31:34 <jix> (?n x y.n (?a b.b(a (?z. b (b z)))) (?a.y) x) is sum of [0,2^0..2^(n-1)]
23:32:03 <jix> which is 2^n-1
23:32:32 <int-e> hmm, ndiv is slower for me
23:32:59 <jix> i'm on ppc..
23:34:04 <int-e> your div2 needs fewer reductions
23:34:34 <jix> ppc function calls are faster than x86 ones...
23:34:43 <int-e> jix: \n.<pred> (n 2)
23:35:03 <jix> shorter-pipelines and intensive use of register-argument-passing
23:35:19 <jix> (? x.<pred> (<pow> 2 x)) is faster than (?n x y.n (?a b.b(a (?z. b (b z)))) (?a.y) x)
23:36:45 <jix> is there a faster solution for (?n x y.n (?a b.b(a (?z. b (x z)))) (?a.y) x)?
23:39:23 <int-e> hmm, the formula would be n(n+1)/2 but the division by two kills it
23:42:20 <jix> (?n. <ndiv> (<mul> n (<succ> n)) 2) is slower even on ppc!
23:43:12 <jix> why is not (?x.x (?x y.y) (?x y.x))
23:43:29 <jix> and not (?x t f.x f t)
23:44:06 <int-e> because we didn't optimize that for some reason
23:45:43 <jix> <xor> is unoptimal too
23:45:56 <jix> lamba's xor: (?x y.x (y (?x y.y) (?x y.x)) y)
23:46:06 <jix> my xor: (?x.x (?x t f.x f t) (?x.x))
23:48:15 <jix> is-dividable-by-two: (?n.n (?x t f.x f t) (?x y.x))
23:49:09 <int-e> and replace last x by y to get a check for odd numbers
23:49:15 <jix> hmm i need signed fractions...
23:51:52 <jix> would (?c x y.c sign nominator denominator) be possible?
23:52:10 <int-e> that's a triplet, yes
23:52:37 <jix> i'll start with multiplication..
23:52:39 <int-e> why not just (?s.s sign nominator denominator)
23:52:53 <jix> hmmm yes why not..
23:52:58 <int-e> with a selector s: \xyz.x for first, \xyz.y for second, \xyz.z for third component.
23:54:03 <jix> rational.la i'm ready
23:59:21 <int-e> btw, lambda does understand \x for ?x if you prefer that. the ? was the original symbol though.
00:00:24 <jix> ? is easier to type on a de keyboard
00:00:45 * int-e is using an US keyboard ;)
00:01:05 <jix> us keyboard is better for programming
00:01:10 <int-e> mainly because that makes typing []{} and \ so much easier.
00:01:15 <jix> but i'm fast enough on a de keyboard
00:01:52 <jix> and i alwazs make tzpos if i use the us lazout ;)
00:02:21 <int-e> that happens to me, too - but when I'm using a de layout keyboard :)
00:02:38 <jix> yeah but i learned typing on a de keyboard years ago...
00:02:59 <jix> i started using a keyboard before i was able to read and write
00:03:17 <jix> we had an old typewrite in my kindergarden
00:04:04 <jix> the first word i was able to type was klo
00:04:39 <int-e> hmm, did you copy a sign from somewhere?
00:05:18 <jix> what sign?
00:05:42 <int-e> a sign with the word 'klo' on it.
00:07:17 <jix> i just pressed some keys and my erzieherin bin zu faul das wort nachzuschlagen... was reading it and i heard klo... and k,l,o are in a triangle
00:07:54 <int-e> hrm. dict.leo.org suggests 'governess' but I don't like that.
00:08:19 <jix> irgndwie komisch englisch zu reden wenn beide deutsch können
00:09:24 <int-e> Not really. There are other people around who can't read English.
00:10:20 <jix> who can't read >>English<<?
00:10:33 <jix> well they have a problem
00:10:36 <int-e> Heh. I meant German.
00:10:54 <jix> int-e: how old are you?
00:11:18 <jix> i'm just interested which people are interested in esolangs
00:12:55 <jix> ok you can count me to crazy peoples...
00:13:16 <int-e> I count myself among them
00:14:50 <jix> heh.. other people in my age play computer games or do sports... but i figure out lambda terms at 1am... ;)
00:16:01 * int-e likes to think of that sort of entertainment as computer games ;)
00:16:10 <int-e> esolangs, that is.
00:16:35 <lament> searching on p2p networks for a song with "love" in the name is hard.
00:16:48 <lament> jix: that makes you a stupid dork
00:17:21 <int-e> lament: why stupid?
00:18:53 <int-e> ok, there are so many ways to be stupid.
00:19:00 <int-e> people are stupid.
00:19:51 <puzzlet> brought to me by irssi proxy
00:19:58 <jix> puzzlet: use base -2
00:20:04 <jix> in base -2 there's no need for signs
00:20:05 <int-e> puzzlet: use telnet.
00:20:28 <int-e> Hmm, -2 is interesting.
00:20:32 <jix> -2 in base -2 is 10 1 is 01 -1 is 11
00:20:42 <int-e> yes, I understand perfectly what that means
00:20:57 <jix> in base n overflow is 10... but in base -2 its 110
00:21:10 <puzzlet> but isn't 2 in base -1 -10?
00:21:34 <jix> yes but 2 is 110 too
00:21:35 <int-e> I also like base 3 with digits -1, 0, 1.
00:21:47 <jix> so no need for the sign
00:21:52 <lament> I find that sitting at home doing esoteric stuff at 1am when others played sports was altogether a bad thing for my overall development :)
00:22:01 <int-e> (written as -0+. +, +-, +0, ++, +--, +-0, etc.)
00:22:17 <int-e> lament, who plays sports at 1 am?
00:22:20 <lament> i'm searching for "The man I love", why do i find "Sexy Babe Posing In The Park.wmv"?
00:22:29 <jix> lament: haha
00:22:32 <jix> i'm going to write my next math test in base -9
00:22:35 <lament> int-e: well, no, i should have slept instead :)
00:22:45 <jix> no one ever said i have to write math tests using base 10
00:22:54 <int-e> lament: there's an 'I' in both your search term and the file name.
00:24:15 <lament> and there's a "The" in "Teen Peeing In The Wood Movies.wmv"...
00:24:18 <int-e> jix hmm, are you sure that confusing your teacher is the best way to get a good grade?
00:24:45 <jix> but a 2 is ok too
00:25:16 <int-e> (grades in Germany are 1 to 6, 1 is best, 6 is worst)
00:25:30 <jix> round((5*1 + 1*6)/2) => 2
00:25:55 <jix> and my teacher knows i'm smarter than him.. so he gives me a 1 anyway...
00:26:33 <int-e> that happened to me once
00:26:57 <int-e> I got a 1 in computer science class, for a program that I had never written.
00:27:06 <jix> oh computer science
00:27:08 <int-e> (that is, the program didn't exist)
00:27:18 <jix> hehe yes same teacher...
00:27:27 <jix> did uhm nothing?... 1
00:27:49 <jix> i did some perl coding on my server... but nothing more...
00:28:12 <jix> i did a bit more than nothing
00:28:21 <int-e> I was lucky, we learned Turbo Pascal at school.
00:28:44 <int-e> this was ... hmm ... about 10 years ago.
00:28:47 <jix> in exel my teacher had a awfull IF ELSE (IF ELSE (IF ELSE END) END ) END construct
00:28:56 <jix> and i told him there's something like CHOOSE in exel..
00:29:55 <int-e> We even had an introduction to Scheme. That was fun.
00:30:04 <jix> we learned a bit javascript (not real javascript but programming a little robot let him walk in a maze)
00:30:25 <Keymaker> we haven't had nothing in school
00:30:39 <jix> the coolest test i've ever written is the 6+ in french
00:30:53 <jix> it's not a 6 .. it's a 6+ its a good 6
00:31:12 <int-e> but it's news to me that this grade exists.
00:31:35 <jix> yes it's stupid a 6 can't be good...
00:32:21 <Keymaker> well, i'm off to read.. ~2:30 am..
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00:32:38 <jix> my hard-drive was broken and i had no time to learn... was busy backing up all my projects etc...
00:33:30 <jix> and french is _not_ my favorite language..
00:33:43 <int-e> I believe that should scare me. But it doesn't.
01:03:41 <jix> ok <rmul> is done
01:04:35 <jix> rational multiply
01:04:46 <jix> as lambda term
01:10:54 <int-e> something like ... \a b.a (b (\s a b t c d.\f (<xor> s t) (<mul> a c) (<mul> b d))) ... except for canceling common factors.
01:11:41 <jix> canceling common factors is an extra function
01:14:10 <jix> but yours doesn't work
01:14:28 <int-e> how do you encode the sign?
01:14:39 <jix> (?a b. (?r.r
01:14:39 <jix> (<xor> (a <back-sign>) (b <back-sign>))
01:14:39 <jix> (<mul> (a <back-numerator>) (b <back-numerator>))
01:14:39 <jix> (<mul> (a <back-denominator>) (b <back-denominator>))
01:14:59 <jix> evaluates to the looong: (?a b r.r (a (?x y z.x) (?x t f.x f t) (?x.x) (b (?x y z.x))) (?x.a (?x y z.y) (b (?x y z.y) x)) (?x.a (?x y z.z) (b (?x y z.z) x)))
01:15:11 <jix> and i think it could be shorter
01:15:47 <int-e> (\a b.a (b (\s a b t c d.\f.f (<xor> s t) (<mul> a c) (<mul> b d)))) (\f.f <true> 2 2) (\f.f <false> 1 3)
01:15:52 <int-e> --> (?f.f (?x y.x) (?x y.x (x y)) (?x y.x (x (x (x (x (x y)))))))
01:16:26 <int-e> (== (\f.f <true> 2 6)
01:17:14 <jix> outch.. i corrected your typo and made a mistake^^
01:21:54 <jix> i've (<rational> sign numerator denominator) (<sign/numerator/denominator> rational) (<r-to-list> rational) (<list-to-r> [s n d]) <rmul> and <rdiv>
01:25:44 <int-e> hmm. next <rsub> and <radd>
01:26:01 <int-e> hmm, probably it's better to do an <rneg>
01:26:21 <jix> canceling of common factors
01:27:04 <jix> is there a gcd in the std lib?
01:27:18 <int-e> not that I know of
01:28:10 <int-e> there isn't even a mod although that would be quite simple using the ideas of listop.
01:29:36 <jix> i saw a mod free gcd algorithm
01:29:59 <int-e> yes, you can do it with comparisons and subtractions alone
01:31:01 <int-e> and with a linear running time for the division that's not even such a bad idea.
01:31:51 <jix> (?a b.<and> (<LE> a b) (<GE> a b)); seems to be slow
01:32:41 <int-e> and its <neq> or <nne> ops
01:32:52 <int-e> (the first 'n' is for 'new' - ignore it)
01:33:14 <jix> i thought nne? not-not-equal?
01:36:39 <int-e> <ggt> = (\x.x x) (\f a b.<iszero> a b (<nlt> a b (f f b a) (f f (<nsub> a b) b)))
01:38:42 <int-e> actually nsub can be replaced by lsub there hmm makes me wonder
01:40:45 <jix> (?a b t f. (a <pow> (K t)) (b <pow> (K f))) is a<=b
01:41:01 <jix> stolen from prelude.scm of lazier stolen from unlambda page
01:44:28 <jix> <LE> is ultra slow
01:44:38 <jix> <nle> is slow
01:44:52 <jix> unlambdas is ultra fast
01:57:22 <int-e> new lsub: (\a b.\g x.(a <pow> I (b <pow> (K x))) ((\x.x x) (\f x.g (x (f f)))))
01:58:07 <jix> cool ist abs(a-b)
01:58:40 <int-e> sorry, just swap the arguments
02:25:32 <jix> rcancle done
02:26:57 * jix has to sleep now
02:28:02 <int-e> http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/stdlib.la has improved lsub and comparisons and a ggt function
02:28:07 <int-e> ggt is still slow though
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12:29:43 <Gs30ng> well it's not moin here
12:30:04 <jix> it's always moin time
12:32:03 * jix plays guitar
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12:50:44 <jix> moin int-e
12:54:59 <int-e> http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/lambda/listop.la contains a gcd function (nggt) that's still slow but quite a bit faster than my previous versions. to get really fast one has to get away from Church numerals though; a list representation (for the bits of the number, say) would perform much better for bigger numbers.
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12:09:37 <Gs30ng> a friend of mine suggested a NULL-like esolang.
12:10:01 <Gs30ng> and i think it's more convenient than NULL
12:10:20 <Gs30ng> but i also think it's concept is to easy that anyone can make such a language
12:10:34 <Gs30ng> there must be one or more lang like this
12:10:51 <Gs30ng> there are approximately 20 instructions.
12:11:02 <Gs30ng> or... well, just make it 16 instructions
12:11:54 <Gs30ng> it will be (maybe so big) hex number
12:12:06 <Gs30ng> then convert the number to decimal
12:12:21 <Gs30ng> now we have a code with only 1 big integer
12:12:47 <Gs30ng> is there any lang like this already?
12:26:13 <jix> but it's 1d like..
12:26:20 <jix> NULL is really 0d
12:30:26 <Gs30ng> there are 16 instructions
12:31:20 <Gs30ng> it'll be like 2, 13, 7, 8, 8, 9, ...
12:32:42 <Gs30ng> then i multiply A by 18
12:33:12 <Gs30ng> finally there would be a big integer
12:34:37 <Gs30ng> with div and mod i can get the original code
12:35:49 <Gs30ng> well... seems still 1d
12:39:22 <Gs30ng> jix, is it sunday too there?
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13:47:16 <Gs30ng> i am trying to make another 0d lang
13:59:57 <jix> Gs30ng is 0d Gs30ng is a point!
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11:30:03 <Gs30ng> it seems conversion thing is over
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14:22:07 <Gs30ng> ...is that conversion thing really over
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14:58:37 <int-e> what where when why who?
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22:42:56 <calamari> bummer.. he should have been in the white house :(
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22:43:57 <Keymaker> what do you mean? i thought gregorr was mr. usian president.
22:44:29 <GregorR> G-ASP!!!!!! calamari said something nasty about our wonderful fantastic president who can have me murdered under the PATRIOT act if I say anything bad about his majesty.
22:45:26 <GregorR> Besides, if Bush dies, Cheney becomes president. And while Bush is bad, I am quite certain that Cheney is the antichrist.
22:45:45 <GregorR> Just look at the Project for a New American Century.
22:46:11 <GregorR> Cheney is a founding member, and it advocates for American theater wars simply to show off our power, and not for any political reason.
22:47:41 <Keymaker> new american century.. don't like the sound of that. x)
22:48:39 <GregorR> No matter how terrible you think PNAC is, it is far far worse.
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03:36:17 * GregorR stares longingly at his empty DirectNet buddy list.
04:31:52 <GregorR> Noooo, my game is crashing :(
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15:04:52 <{^Raven^}> anyone kow of a BF 'terp that has unbuffered input for Unix or Windows?
15:06:11 <{^Raven^}> not had any luck tracking one down and writing one is proving a pita.
15:07:58 <{^Raven^}> am having difficulty implementing the low-level keyboard access
15:09:13 <{^Raven^}> on RISC OS it's simple but limits the userbase
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18:28:38 <lament> what does low-level keyboard access have to do with unbuffered?
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19:26:43 <calamari> unbuffered.. I have an MS-DOS interpreter that doesn't wait for Enter to be pressed. It is only 8-bit though and maximum program size is aprrox 63,000 bytes.
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21:15:16 <pgimeno> you seem to be from near here :)
21:15:58 <cOoOoK> dunno, what means "near here" ;)
21:16:46 <cOoOoK> I have just discovered Esoteric programming, and I was really curious
21:17:12 <cOoOoK> any site to read about?
21:17:32 <pgimeno> well, in Spanish there's my own article
21:17:42 <pgimeno> in English there's the wiki
21:18:23 <pgimeno> my article is just an introduction to some languages, Brainfuck etc.
21:19:04 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/LenguajesEsotericos.php
21:20:18 <pgimeno> the wiki is at http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:20:45 <cOoOoK> really interesting pgimeno, I'm reading now thanks a lot
21:24:24 <pgimeno> sorry, that version is currently unreleased and the stylesheet has green colors for <code> tags where it shouldn't
21:29:03 <pgimeno> fixed; if you reload you'll get rid of that ugly greenish background
21:32:11 <pgimeno> it was an experiment for better differentiation of <code> sections but I didn't finish that part
21:32:41 <pgimeno> this is the second version and it's work-in-progress as a second version
21:33:05 <cOoOoK> why i have never heared about this kinda language?
21:35:47 <cOoOoK> well, is the most natural programming language i have ever read
21:36:10 <cOoOoK> uses the same logic as Nature
21:36:38 <pgimeno> I'd say it uses the same logic as RND()
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22:09:30 <cOoOoK> a very nice reading, thank you pgimeno . I'll come back to the channel
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22:38:03 <Keymaker> grhh.. i'll be back in few minutes. hungry..
22:57:56 <Keymaker> it takes amazingly lot time to make and eat cheese-ham bread
23:07:25 <jix> it takes amazingly lot time doing nothing for an amazingly long time
23:26:41 <Keymaker> there is nothing interesting on web
23:30:34 <jix> shouldn't the wiki page use the lambda sign instead f for lambda?
23:35:43 <Keymaker> what does mean 'on the fringe of'?
23:36:00 <Keymaker> i have no good web dictionary..
23:39:26 <jix> hmm my dict says fringe == rand(gebiet) which is something like border (zone)
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00:39:59 <jix> i'm insane...
00:40:11 <jix> did ?z x y.x (z x y) => (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I))))) (S (S (K S) (S (K (S (K S))) (S (K (S (K K))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))) (K (K I)))
00:41:06 <jix> took about 40mins
00:41:31 <jix> and i have a program that does it in less than a 1/24 sec
00:42:44 <jix> (if anyone tells you something he saw took less than 1/(>24) second he lies)
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00:52:32 <jix> but i'm getting faster
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00:52:43 <jix> and i don't need the translation table anymore
00:55:08 <jix> did (?x y z.x z y) => (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))) (K (S (K K) I))) in 10 mins
01:11:08 <jix> Y => (S (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K (S I I))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K (S I I))))
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03:52:08 <calamari> trying to decide what my webpage generator markup will look like
03:52:54 <int-e> ++[+>-]<< Some text here >>[+<-]--
03:59:35 <calamari> that might get too confusing :)
03:59:53 <calamari> although maybe I should check out xml
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13:46:32 <Keymaker> i got an idea for esoteric language
13:47:22 <Keymaker> although, i got the idea long time ago
13:49:52 <Keymaker> well, haven't thought it much after that either
13:49:58 <jix> S I is equivalent to (S (K (S I)) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I)))
13:51:12 <Keymaker> the language is based on weather reports
13:51:29 <Keymaker> and programs look like some strange weather reports
13:51:56 * Keymaker throws keyboard through window
13:52:29 <jix> you can't type now
13:52:39 <jix> that was stupid
13:54:16 <Keymaker> i'm somehow strangely frustrated today.. i hate computers today.. rgghhhh
13:54:28 <Keymaker> or well, i've never liked the actual machinery
13:57:42 <jix> <mul> is (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (K K) I)))) (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))
13:57:51 <jix> of course done by hand
14:23:30 <Keymaker> i finally got around updating trigger homepage; http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html ..
14:23:47 <Keymaker> i added new version of 99bob and a char2bin converter
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17:06:54 <Keymaker> well, felt asleep for two and a half hours.. glad nothing happened here :)
17:07:41 <Keymaker> i should sleep longer at night time..
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17:17:16 <jix> Keymaker: nooooo don't sleep at night time.. everyone else sleeps at night time.. so you don't have to.
17:18:32 <jix> at school time i often fall asleep for an hour.. sometimes after school sometimes IN school
17:18:59 <jix> math lessens are boring..
17:19:29 <Keymaker> well, everything's boring. except philosophy :)
17:19:48 <jix> no math isn't boring.. only math lessons in school
17:19:58 <Keymaker> glad there's only about six months of this current school left..
17:20:17 <jix> hmm music isn't boring
17:20:58 <jix> "gemeinschaftskunde" isn't that boring
17:23:08 <jix> np: Flogging Molly - queen annes revenge [ Within a mile of home ]
17:23:14 <jix> i love that song
17:23:49 <jix> huh... well what kind of music flogging molly...
17:24:50 <Keymaker> by the way, as a german you probably hear a lot of germantechno and -trance there?
17:26:34 <jix> i don't like techno/trance
17:27:05 <jix> i hear german punk
17:29:12 <jix> hmm iTunes says it's Folk/Punk (Flogging molly).. that fits.. but you have to hear it to know what it is
17:32:29 <jix> and they use a lot of instruments that arn't often used for punk...Banjo, Bodhran, Spoons, Fiddle, Tin Whistle, Uilleann Pipes,Accordion, Concertina,Mandolin, Banjo, Bazouki, Mandola
17:32:45 <jix> i don't even know all of them
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17:34:13 * jix is installing latex on his machine
17:35:52 <jix> on some webpage there was "If you see the nick latex^queen on irc do you think of typesetting?" and i thought yes of course?! then i realized that latex^queen may have nothing to do with LaTeX
17:36:47 <Keymaker> i hope it has nothing to do with LaTeX x)
17:45:22 -!- pgimeno has changed nick to latex^queen.
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17:46:04 <latex^queen> some time ago it was harder to find LaTeX-related references on google
17:47:02 <latex^queen> you had to add 'tex' and hope that keyword was present in the pages you wanted to find
17:47:52 * latex^queen is trying to find an HTML to TeX converter
17:49:10 <fizzie> html2latex.sourceforge.net and all that.
17:49:13 <latex^queen> there's little written in non-esoteric languages
17:50:00 <latex^queen> I'm trying to install that one but it fails on 'make test'
17:51:41 <latex^queen> maybe I finally stick to sed + manual conversion
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18:19:24 <pgimeno> heh, nice paradox: Frans Faase has written a converter in a non-esoteric language
18:22:06 <fizzie> "'make test' failed in 0.9, which could be a major headache for some people."
18:23:17 <pgimeno> well, not sure the version of HTML::Latex
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18:23:57 <pgimeno> it's giving me a strange warning: 'comparison is always true' because it compares if an unsigned char is <= 255
18:24:26 <pgimeno> strange in the sense that why should that be a warning (without -Wall at least)
18:26:05 <pgimeno> and there may be architectures where MAX_UCHAR > 255
18:26:32 <pgimeno> or am I wrong here? I'm no expert in the C89 standard
18:27:10 <int-e> well, it's still unlikely that you want a non-effective comparison in your code ... I think it's ok to warn about that.
18:29:55 <pgimeno> I agree for -Wall, I just think this one is a bit... insignificant? for it to be active by default
18:37:12 <int-e> Hmm, I disagree that it's insignificant, but there seems to be no way to turn this warning off (except by disabling all warnings) - at least in gcc 3.4.2, which is bad.
18:38:55 <calamari> hmm.. just thought of a bit-variant.. wonder how close to TC it is
18:39:39 <calamari> commands: > = [>], @ = invert bit, if 1->0, then invert next bit (etc)
18:41:52 <int-e> @ is basically [>]+<[-<]> if the cell to the left of the pointer is 0.
18:43:49 <int-e> hmm. but you need loops, too. and probably a way to move the pointer left.
18:44:11 <calamari> I was thinking that the pointer would never need to move left
18:46:48 <int-e> I'm pretty sure that's wrong. right now you can model your machine as a single register machine with an increment (@) and a strange operation that divides by 2 repeatedly as long as the register's contents is odd.
18:48:48 <calamari> hmm.. > seems redundant, since @ is enough to eventually build any state
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18:49:50 <int-e> another thing to note is that all bits to the left of the pointer are 1 - and can not be accessed any more.
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18:51:47 <calamari> I wonder if adding < is enough
18:52:29 <calamari> so now all cells can be accessed
18:53:04 <calamari> maybe not enough for computation, tho.. :)
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22:48:16 <Keymaker> talking about jumping/loops.. is it necessary for a turing-complete language to have more than one loop?
22:48:56 <kipple__> you mean that a program cannot have more than one loop?
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22:49:51 <Keymaker> i thought it was something like while stuff in c
22:50:00 <int-e> a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop
22:50:05 <kipple> he's just joking with you
22:50:46 <int-e> that depends on the concepts employed
22:51:07 <int-e> if you have some infinite program storage and a way to modify it, loops may not be necessary
22:51:30 <int-e> if you have high level operations like 'execute my data on a turing machine' you also don't need loops
22:52:23 <int-e> but normally I'd consider loops (or an equivalent concept like recursion) to be necessary.
22:52:54 <Keymaker> not that i've planned anything, just thought..
22:53:44 <kipple> I think there are some esolangs where there is only one loop, but I can't remember which
22:54:27 <kipple> seem to remember something about every program being looped until some condition occurs
22:56:05 <int-e> Keymaker (re: at all?): if you can append to your program faster than you execute it, this could work.
22:56:06 <kipple> but couldn't it be done through self-modification?
22:56:52 <kipple> I think we're onto the same idea int-e :)
22:59:17 <kipple> but, of course, the code copying is pretty much like a loop
23:01:33 <Keymaker> it's amazing how many languages cpressey has made up
23:04:16 <kipple> Keymaker: is Trigger your lang?
23:04:38 <kipple> there is no article for it in the wiki
23:05:01 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html
23:05:25 <Keymaker> i tried once making an article about it to esowiki, but couldn't make it clear enough
23:05:53 <kipple> a stub with a link to that web page would be better than nothing at least :)
23:06:25 <Keymaker> kipple: have you tried trigger yet?
23:06:43 <kipple> looked a bit a udage, but the spec was hard to read
23:06:49 <kipple> but I like the concept
23:07:09 <Keymaker> yes, as you can see from the spec i got the idea from udage
23:07:27 <kipple> what? only 256 bits memory :D
23:07:42 <Keymaker> i'm sick of those turing tarpits
23:09:01 <Keymaker> anyways, i couldn't make the spec any more clear :9
23:09:30 <kipple> I think a short list of the commands would be nice
23:09:46 <Keymaker> there are no commands, you see
23:09:57 <Keymaker> it's all about patterns that are commands :9
23:10:41 <Keymaker> and in jump case two same characters and an argument character, like rr*
23:10:56 <Keymaker> that i can do to esowiki article
23:12:07 <kipple> hey! it's non-deterministic as well :) at least partlly
23:12:55 <Keymaker> or well, don't know is non-deterministic right word
23:13:02 <kipple> yes. but since you can avoid it, I guess it would qualify as deterministic
23:13:03 <Keymaker> i'm confused of all random, non-deterministic etc..
23:13:31 <kipple> but a nice way to include a random function
23:14:33 <kipple> what do you mean by this: "Trigger uses UNIX new-line (dec 10)."
23:14:44 <kipple> aren't newlines treated as variables too?
23:15:00 <Keymaker> three dec 10s in row prints a new-line
23:15:43 <kipple> so, on Windows three #10s would print #13#10 ?
23:16:53 <Keymaker> if you'd like to make a windows new-line you would need 13 13 13 10 10 10
23:17:26 <kipple> ok. but then I don't get what's the point with saying it uses UNIX new-line.
23:17:42 <Keymaker> well, my writings often have no point
23:18:00 <kipple> the same could be said about many esolangs :)
23:18:34 <kipple> anyways, the wiki now has 3 languages in the Non-textual category. We need more!
23:19:39 <Keymaker> what non-textual really means?
23:20:04 <Keymaker> ok.. but then doesn't fugue have text sources?
23:20:14 <kipple> no, at least not in theory
23:20:49 <kipple> though it has no implementation
23:21:17 <Keymaker> hmm.. non-textual langs are interesting
23:21:35 <kipple> hehe. maybe I should make en interpreter for fugue that I can plug my guitar into :D
23:22:06 <kipple> I also find them interesting. especially since they are so rare
23:22:18 <kipple> and NULL is only barely non-textual
23:23:12 <Keymaker> yes.. too bad i don't get the null.. i can't understand it
23:23:41 <jix> Keymaker: it works with prime-factors
23:24:15 <Keymaker> i see that from wiki article but i don't still get it..
23:25:22 <jix> i know how it works but i don't know how to program with it
23:25:43 <Keymaker> :) if someone could make a program that prints 'A' and would explain it perhaps then i'd get it
23:25:58 <jix> int-e: converting lambda-terms to CL-terms by hand is fun
23:27:06 <Keymaker> kipple: here's one idea for graphical 2d language
23:28:16 <Keymaker> each pixel would have some rgb value, where r could be instruction, g some memory value, and b -- no idea
23:28:50 <Keymaker> so, the memory program could use would be stored in the program itself
23:29:08 <Keymaker> naturally the values could be changed during execution
23:29:27 <int-e> jix: you're weird. one of the first things I did was to write a tool for doing that. *g*
23:29:27 <kipple> then you could see the picture chaning during execution
23:29:42 <Keymaker> hehe, that kind of interpreter would be very neat!
23:30:09 <kipple> how about that being the only kind of output :)
23:30:35 <Keymaker> would get quite hard to make any visible messages
23:30:45 <jix> rgb is to common for an esoteric language
23:31:15 <kipple> both g and b could be values. then you could have instructions with two arguments
23:31:35 <jix> but yes rgb is ok
23:31:36 <kipple> and then you could easily modify pixels elsewhere
23:32:00 <Keymaker> yeah, maybe g and b both being arguments is good, like you said kipple
23:32:08 <jix> there is a instruction-component pointer which says what is insturction (R G or B)
23:32:35 <Keymaker> what is instruction-component?
23:32:41 <jix> if ICP == R red is instruction green is arg1 blue arg 2
23:32:58 <jix> if ICP == G green is instruction blue is....
23:33:28 <jix> kipple: with 1 dimension limited to (1..3)
23:33:44 <kipple> you could of course add more
23:34:04 <jix> but alpha = 0 is stupid because it hides rg and b
23:34:11 <jix> ultra-violet
23:34:18 <kipple> int-e: octarine is a great idea!
23:34:27 <kipple> the first magical programming language
23:35:00 <kipple> just having octarine would make it Turing Complete in itself :)
23:35:11 <int-e> jix: It's the eights color of the rainbow, the magical color.
23:35:19 <jix> the rainbow has 9 colors
23:35:27 <jix> don't you see them?
23:35:30 <int-e> It's only visible in strong magical fields. (Read some Terry Pratchett :)
23:35:40 <int-e> the rainbow has many colors.
23:36:02 <Keymaker> :) well, perhaps this is some reference to some book that i have no idea about..
23:36:02 <kipple> it's a fictional color from the Discworld book series
23:36:06 <jix> int-e: i red one and i'm going to read more..(i still have one at home unred)
23:36:20 <kipple> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octarine#Octarine
23:36:23 <int-e> jix, it's pronounced 'red', but it's spelled 'read' :)
23:36:53 <int-e> should've thought of wikipedia.
23:37:22 <jix> int-e: knaw i hate spelling....
23:37:46 <int-e> I was just trying to be helpful :(
23:38:00 <jix> int-e: yeah feel free to correct me...
23:41:49 <kipple> writing a program in such a language would be difficult, unless you have a nice IDE though
23:41:52 <GregorR> The rainbow has infinite colors, it's a gradient, not several independent color entities :P
23:42:21 <jix> GregorR: yes but it's a gardient with 9 keys that are interpolated...
23:42:32 <kipple> but Newton was a bit of mystic and decided that we have 7
23:43:20 <Keymaker> what could be good instructions
23:43:26 <int-e> GregorR, hmm, wasn't there an energy quantum and thus a finite number of different wavelengths in a rainbow?
23:43:39 <jix> Keymaker: i think over-complicated instructions would be cool instead of simple ones like bf's
23:43:59 <Keymaker> well, perhaps, but it'd be nice to get something actually done
23:44:08 <kipple> yeah. I've thought of doing a lang where all the instructions have a ton of side effects :=
23:44:20 <jix> like take a value from x-3 y+4 and add 4 and multiple it with the x+7 y-2 xor 12 and produce a beep
23:44:22 <kipple> but perhaps not in this one :) it's gonna be hard enough as it is
23:44:50 <Keymaker> i'd like simple, "efficient", visual programming language
23:45:40 <jix> ok but it shouldn't be that minimalistic
23:45:48 <jix> it should have powerfull math features
23:46:12 <kipple> a set instructions to manipulate the IP, a set of instructions to manipulate the pixels
23:46:15 <jix> from cos..e^x...a/b
23:46:57 <calamari> cos/sin would be nice for making circles
23:47:18 <calamari> or you could just use lookup tables ;)
23:47:48 <Keymaker> i think the IP should be befunge like
23:47:57 <jix> ok but it should have one 100% useless very complex function i'm going to design now
23:48:10 <jix> Keymaker: i think it should use reflection (\ and /)
23:48:32 <int-e> jix: try 'expand power series' and take the coefficients from a straight line ...
23:48:40 <int-e> jix: that's powerful and hard to use ;)
23:48:56 <jix> uhm i don't understand it
23:49:05 <jix> maybe i don't know the english expressions
23:49:29 <int-e> what I mean are functions defined as f(x) = sum(i=0 to infinity) a_i*x^i
23:49:35 <int-e> the a_i are the coefficients
23:49:40 <Keymaker> to get all the features we want, perhaps we need to get to separate languages (the udage-trigger style)
23:50:00 <Keymaker> i at least will work on simple befunge like rgb thing
23:50:22 <jix> Keymaker: i like that too
23:50:55 <jix> i'd suggest writing the interpreter in c+sdl that's portable and fast
23:51:00 <jix> but first we need a spec
23:51:29 <jix> do we have a stack?
23:51:34 <kipple> if you're going with rgb then each value is only 8bit
23:51:35 <jix> or registers
23:51:56 <kipple> we don't need stacks or registers. the image is the storage
23:52:11 <kipple> unless you want turing completeness
23:52:28 <Keymaker> there could be infinite "canvas"
23:52:40 <Keymaker> that the picture is only part of it, place on right top corner
23:52:54 <Keymaker> the other values all having either random values or 0s or 255s
23:53:35 <jix> i have a cool memory adressing idea.. it's possible to adress many values with only 1 byte
23:53:40 <jix> with a spiral
23:54:06 <Keymaker> well, the language was supposed to be simple to use :)
23:54:12 <jix> it's simple
23:54:30 <jix> where P is the current IP
23:54:49 <jix> you just start moving right and walk around the center in a spiral
23:55:16 <Keymaker> i was just imagining other kind of spiral
23:55:43 <jix> hmm 0 could be the current instruction for easy self modification
23:56:20 <pgimeno> if it's going to have infinite canvas, it probably needs a separate data pointer or self-modification
23:56:31 <jix> pgimeno: self-modification
23:56:32 <calamari> how about something like sokoban where you move blocks around?
23:56:50 <jix> or infinite data pointer...
23:57:04 <jix> but the instruction that moves DP should use spiral-offsets
23:57:26 <pgimeno> otherwise the data access will be trapped, just as in Bitxtreme
23:57:49 <Keymaker> so it needs separate data pointer..?
23:58:26 <jix> yes with inifinite size
23:58:34 <pgimeno> either that or self-modification, otherwise infinite size is pointless
23:59:06 <jix> yes but that makes it very hard
23:59:14 <jix> but well it's possible
23:59:37 <pgimeno> it can copy regions instead of cells
23:59:47 <jix> pgimeno: ack ack ack!
23:59:51 <jix> brilliant idea
00:00:07 <jix> but i want spiral adressing in it
00:00:59 <jix> to the line FEDCB
00:01:33 <Keymaker> let's see.. perhaps there should be some instruction stack, or where else the program would take the coordinates of x1,y1,width1,height1 copy that, paste to x2,y2..?
00:02:08 <jix> Keymaker: you adress one pixel and it takes the info from 4 pixels next to that pixel
00:02:21 <jix> and the one pixel is adressed using SpiralAdressing(tm)^^
00:02:51 <Keymaker> perhaps better than instruction stack
00:03:05 <kipple> nice if all data is stored in the image
00:03:33 <Keymaker> as well, i think that the next pixels should be taken from the direction the data pointer is moving
00:04:09 <kipple> and the datapointer could have a flag which says "move in a spiral"
00:04:37 <Keymaker> if you really want to use the data pointer, then.. :)
00:04:53 <Keymaker> perhaps it's best to have data pointer AND instruction pointer
00:05:12 <kipple> oh, I meant instruction pointer
00:05:43 <kipple> how about the IP being a function (which can be redefined)
00:05:55 <kipple> then it could move in many different ways
00:05:59 <jix> kipple: another language... imho
00:06:20 <Keymaker> but about the instruction pointer..
00:07:07 <kipple> since the data is stored in the same pixel as the instruction I don't think you need a data pointer
00:07:24 <kipple> so, just IP and selfmod
00:07:54 <jix> no ip moves linear
00:07:58 <jix> but adressing is spiral
00:08:12 <pgimeno> like, indirect addressing?
00:08:15 <jix> like add_a_to_cell_at_adress_b 1 2
00:08:31 <jix> which fits perfectly into rgb
00:08:41 <jix> adressing is spiral and relative to ip
00:09:44 <Keymaker> do you mean by that reading the values near the ip that are needed for example copying piece of canvas?
00:10:12 <jix> and you can do nothing if you can only access the current cell
00:10:18 <kipple> if the IP is at 0 then the addresses for other pixels is:
00:10:32 <jix> i did it CCW but CW is ok too
00:12:55 <kipple> gonna be difficult to program ...
00:13:59 <kipple> not sure if it's right for this lang (though I like the idea)
00:14:48 <Keymaker> it's naturally possible that we make separate languages, as i've mentioned
00:15:12 <Keymaker> the more non-textual langs the better ;)
00:18:48 <calamari> cool, started on my spec then too :)
00:19:04 <calamari> I would appreciate help with SDL, though.. any guides for that?
00:19:33 <Keymaker> i'll have a bit hard time coding things up
00:20:00 <Keymaker> i can't do almost nothing at all in it
00:20:11 <Keymaker> i can try to send you some small codes tomorrow
00:20:37 <Keymaker> although i don't have single pixel drawing stuff..
00:21:15 <Keymaker> haven't really found good manuals, i've got info from here and there around the web, and haven't program almost anything, just tests, nothing game-like or something
00:21:18 <calamari> that's okay. I might as well try to figure it out :)
00:21:50 <Keymaker> anyways, good luck with your language gentlemen
00:22:10 <Keymaker> kipple: do you want to cooperative work with me or design own?
00:22:23 <Keymaker> i think we were on same thought patterns, so..
00:23:43 <kipple> I'm not going to make my own , no
00:24:27 <kipple> can help with yours if you want
00:24:44 <Keymaker> i'll e-mail to your e-mail address,
00:25:29 <kipple> yes, but my router won't cooperate
00:25:42 <Keymaker> well, then can you tell here what the address is?
00:25:49 <Keymaker> or open that new window and tell
00:26:27 <Keymaker> it'll be interesting to see what kind of languages people make up
00:26:33 <kipple> anyway, maybe we should make a page under Works in Progress in the wiki
00:27:14 <kipple> lets just pick a temporary one
00:27:41 <int-e> and the final could be TT - Temporary Two.
00:28:31 <kipple> what happens if two people edit the same article at the same time?
00:30:19 <kipple> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Codename:_RGB
00:31:07 <kipple> so, what do we have so far?
00:31:34 <Keymaker> where the program will be placed on left top corner
00:31:44 <Keymaker> (i accidentally said 'right' sometime ago)
00:32:27 <Keymaker> the other canvas is filled with zeroes or something
00:33:08 <Keymaker> often used as 'transparent colour'
00:33:28 <Keymaker> anyways; then we have instruction pointer
00:34:06 <Keymaker> i'd be fine with the four directions
00:34:37 <Keymaker> then, we have each pixel that have rgb value, where r is some instruction
00:34:49 <Keymaker> each of them naturally being 8-bit
00:35:54 <Keymaker> what do you think: if there's some instruction (like that copy-paste) that needs more arguments than two, it should take them from the next pixels, from the direction the ip is moving
00:36:13 <kipple> that's the easiest way
00:36:15 <Keymaker> then, if there's only two arguments, should the instruction take them from g and b?
00:36:35 <kipple> I would say that can be different in each instruction
00:37:28 <Keymaker> probably should save to g and b
00:37:55 <jix> fill unused space with random data
00:37:59 <Keymaker> eof thing could be useful, i think
00:38:04 <jix> that makes nondeterministic programs possible
00:38:08 <jix> like number guessing game
00:38:19 <Keymaker> jix: that was one of my ideas many lines ago :)
00:38:39 <Keymaker> but i was talking about the empty canvas
00:38:45 <kipple> why not have a separate random function? we have 256 instructions possible
00:39:18 <Keymaker> anyways; what do you think about that eof kipple?
00:39:47 <Keymaker> that something like setting g to 1 in case of eof or something
00:40:06 <Keymaker> yeah, something like that would be useful
00:40:26 <Keymaker> by the way, what should happen if the ip moves to top edge or left edge?
00:40:39 <kipple> it could be infinite in all directions
00:41:45 <Keymaker> like 5000x5000 canvas with 3 values for every pixel..
00:41:55 <GregorR> You waaanto to use RXML for input :)
00:42:04 <kipple> the canvas should be allocated dynamically as needed
00:42:17 <Keymaker> well, yeah, but i can't program that :)
00:42:36 <kipple> just resize the image when needed. is that difficult?
00:43:20 <kipple> anyway, lets not go into implementation details at this point :)
00:43:31 <GregorR> Such as using RXML as input :)
00:43:46 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/rxml.php
00:44:02 <GregorR> Raster imaging in XML. Mind-bogglingly stupid is what it is 8-D
00:44:03 <Keymaker> i was already guessing it was some gregorr's stuff..
00:44:10 <int-e> Keymaker: what's 100 MB among friends?
00:45:01 * int-e pukes somewhere behind the scenes.
00:45:21 <Keymaker> as a sidenote; the hats gallery still needs updating!
00:46:16 <kipple> lets make some instructions!
00:46:30 <kipple> we need a put value to pixel (x,y)
00:47:08 <Keymaker> or only that it changes b automatically?
00:47:20 <int-e> yay, the converter uses DOM ... read the whole document, then convert it, then write it.
00:47:24 * int-e is sooooooo happy.
00:48:17 <kipple> a problem is that x and y can larger than 8bits
00:48:54 <Keymaker> never thought about that before..
00:49:25 <kipple> so x and y should perhaps be relative to current IP position
00:50:36 <int-e> <?xml version="1.0"?> <rxml version="1.0"> <image maxval="255" width="477" height="493"> <layer x="1" y="1" width="477" height="493" z-index="1"> <pixel x="1" y="1"> <red value="5"/> <green value="1"/> <blue value="2"/> <alpha value="255"/> </pixel> [...] properly indented of course. This is great stuff.
00:51:06 <kipple> how about this: the g is the value to be put, and b determines if the value goes to the r,g or b component
00:51:09 <GregorR> Could int-e be raising some sort of sarcastic defiance against RXML? :P
00:51:12 <int-e> note that this format is easily extensible to include alpha and octarine channels.
00:51:27 <kipple> the coords taken from the next pixel
00:51:33 <int-e> no. RXML is a great example why XML should *not* be blindly used.
00:51:52 <GregorR> NO!!!! XML IS ALWAYS BETTER!!!!! BUZZWORD = GOOD!!!!
00:52:06 <int-e> See, that's what I'm defiant against.
00:52:34 <Keymaker> should the values go backwards if value is bigger than 128 or something?
00:52:42 <GregorR> Keymaker: You know, you would have an extra data byte if you used alpha.
00:52:45 <kipple> yes. the bytes could be signed
00:53:17 <GregorR> int-e: At OSCON, somebody presented (as part of their larger presentation) a convertor to write perl as XML, and an environment to run it.
00:53:50 <int-e> GregorR: You see I'm old-fashioned. If data is transfered in a verbose format like XML, compressed with gzip, I raise the question why they added that redundancy in the first place and didn't use a custom binary format.
00:54:18 <GregorR> kipple: XML will fuck your brain enough without Brainfuck support ;)
00:54:33 <kipple> double negative is positive!
00:54:37 <int-e> Oh. I see something coming
00:54:58 <int-e> <LOOP> <PLUS/> <PLUS/> <LEFT/> </LOOP>
00:55:32 <int-e> too concise, I'll admit, but it's a start.
00:55:33 <GregorR> <operation encoding="UTF-8">+</operation>
00:56:26 <calamari> err it'd be <!-- > --> wouldn't it
00:57:01 <Keymaker> kipple: we need to invent some logical way the next cells are checked; i mean that it's strange if sometimes the values are taken from the pixel where the instruction is, sometimes from the four next pixels etc..
00:57:01 <kipple> back to RGB: how about put taking coords from the two next pixels. the first pixel would be negative, and the second positive
00:58:38 <Keymaker> or another way could be that it checks if pixel1's g is 0, then b's value will be positive direction, else if it's 1 or something, then b's direction will be negative
00:59:11 <Keymaker> the g being 0 or 1 determining the direction (backwards or forwards)
00:59:26 <kipple> yes. it could handle the next pixels as 24bit signed integers
00:59:57 <kipple> no, that would perhaps make it too hard to program...
01:00:15 <Keymaker> perhaps the 8-bit values is fine
01:00:27 <Keymaker> i doubt anyone makes something very large program anyways,
01:00:32 <Keymaker> and if does, they can use patterns
01:00:59 <kipple> hmm. an address stack is tempting
01:01:15 <jix> Keymaker: did a trigger program
01:01:44 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/1jN0f072.html
01:01:54 <jix> it's simple but it works
01:02:34 <jix> trigger is cool
01:02:50 <jix> and 99bob in trigger is insane-cool
01:02:55 <jix> voted *****
01:03:09 <Keymaker> i have a new version of it on my page
01:05:16 <int-e> xaxxaaxb bbxbbxc ccxccxd
01:05:16 <int-e> aatbbuccv111fddev222eddfuccv333fddev444eddftbbu555fddeu666e
01:05:55 <jix> the rand seed is bad
01:06:12 <jix> i get the same number for every >4 calls
01:06:15 <int-e> I know. I used the standard technique to use time()
01:06:24 <int-e> which only changes once per second
01:06:52 <jix> ruby uses microseconds^pid
01:07:00 <Keymaker> anyways; kipple; where were we?
01:07:08 <kipple> thinking about addressing
01:07:20 <int-e> yes, using gettimeofday would be better but I was lazy
01:07:32 <kipple> maybe we need a datapointer...
01:07:34 <jix> ruby's prng is very good.. passes all ent test
01:07:50 <jix> it's a mtSOMENUMBER
01:08:07 <int-e> mersenne twister. hmm.
01:08:39 <jix> i just read the comment 'equidistributed in 300 dimensions' and stopped reading the source *g*
01:08:45 <kipple> I don't think the idea to read from the next pixels according to the IP is a good idea.
01:09:04 <jix> it's already hard to imagine 4d.. i don't want to imagine 300d
01:09:13 <Keymaker> yes, it isn't very nice looking in the source either
01:09:27 <int-e> "(It is proved that the period is 2^19937-1, and 623-dimensional equidistribution property is assured.)"
01:10:03 <Keymaker> kipple: then, do you suggest a stack?
01:10:13 <Keymaker> it'd be probably best, since it's non-visible etc
01:10:25 <kipple> would be convenient, but unelegant
01:10:41 <Keymaker> yeah.. but what would be the elegant choice?
01:10:57 <kipple> haven't thought of it yet :)
01:11:25 <kipple> the elegant choice wouild be to use only g and b
01:11:43 <kipple> g is value, b is address
01:11:52 <kipple> a bit limited though ;)
01:12:10 <Keymaker> almost trigger limited, if b being some memory address
01:12:39 <kipple> but the address is really 3d
01:12:50 <kipple> since there are 3 components of each pixels
01:13:21 <kipple> that could be solved with three put instructions putR, putG and putB
01:13:54 <Keymaker> but what about the coordinates -- or the value?
01:14:03 <Keymaker> all can't be fit in two places
01:14:27 <kipple> 4 bits for x and 4 for y :(
01:14:51 <Keymaker> not to mention copy and paste...
01:15:07 <Keymaker> maybe we'll need to make up our own image format
01:15:31 <kipple> like where each color component is a 64 bit int?
01:15:33 <Keymaker> where each pixel has r and g and b values and ten other values :)
01:15:50 <int-e> I'm sure RXML is up to the task
01:16:07 <Keymaker> but that 64 bit int thing could work
01:16:28 <kipple> let's stick to standard rgb or we cant convert to a normal image file
01:17:50 <GregorR> I think the proper course of action would be to RISCianly divide functions that can't be done in one "packet" into several *shrugs*
01:18:07 <GregorR> (Where "packet" = "pixel")
01:18:11 <kipple> how about having a Data Offset which is applied to the IP when reading values?
01:18:59 <kipple> no, that's just a data pointer in disguise...
01:20:35 <kipple> how about the values being read from a direction perpendicular to the IP?
01:21:18 <kipple> 90 degrees (unless I'm mixing things up)
01:22:27 <Keymaker> that would prevent the ip execution the "argument pixels"..
01:22:32 <kipple> so if the IP is moving left, the data is read downwards
01:24:01 <Keymaker> designing this kind of language is a lot more difficult than i expected it to b
01:24:31 <kipple> I think this is maybe the best way if we're to avoid DPs and stacks
01:24:46 <Keymaker> anyways, i'm getting rather tired, it's 3:30 am already..
01:24:57 <Keymaker> maybe better continue another time?
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01:28:55 <jix> input in trigger doesn't work
01:30:14 <jix> ah it does work
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01:35:53 <jix> a new trigger programm called numcat
01:35:54 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/3OHwfi96.html
01:36:05 <jix> it's like cat but only supports 0123456789 and \n
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02:45:21 <calamari> yay, hacked scrobbler to remove all the limits about why it won't add a song :)
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04:15:12 <calamari> done with summer classes.. that means I can work on my game a lot more now!
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14:26:33 <Keymaker> bbl, hopefully kipple'll be around.
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14:27:27 <{^Raven^}> I gotta explain to someone unfamiliar to BF that it is *impossible* to save and load files
14:29:21 <{^Raven^}> I guess that what happens when you make brainfuck programs for the general public to use
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16:46:22 <int-e> GregorR: Using DOM for the RXML to PNM converter turned out to be a great choice - converting that 35 MB image to PNM used 350 MB of RAM ;)
17:22:05 <GregorR> int-e: YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!
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18:36:45 <Keymaker> kipple: the esowiki article seems nice
18:37:25 <kipple> now that is an idea. an esolang based on RPGs :D
18:37:57 <kipple> anyway, I just jotted down what we've discussed so far. probably missed a bunch
18:53:20 <kipple> uploaded? what do you mean?
18:54:31 <Keymaker> i meant that have you uploaded the things you jotted down
18:54:38 <Keymaker> or did you jot them down on real paper?
18:54:44 <kipple> umm. in the esowiki :)
18:54:56 <kipple> I said I porbably missed a bunch :)
18:55:16 <kipple> feel free to add to it
18:55:52 <Keymaker> yeah, it looks like it has probably all or most of the stuff
18:55:57 <kipple> anyway, regarding instructions and arguments
18:56:36 <kipple> what if g determines direction for reading the arguments, and b says how many arguments to be used?
18:57:16 <kipple> for instance: ADD RIGHT 5 will add the values of the 5 pixels to the right of the IP
18:57:41 <kipple> but where to put the return value if it's larger than 255?
18:58:54 <Keymaker> what if the case is that copy area thing where there's many arguments?
18:59:21 <Keymaker> i think your idea could work the way g determines the direction where the values are read from
18:59:27 <kipple> with this method there are up to 255 args
19:00:12 <Keymaker> oops, seems i forgot to continue:
19:01:05 <Keymaker> if there's the command copy_area(x1,y1,width,height,x2,y2)
19:01:18 <Keymaker> then, where the instruction takes the arguments?
19:01:35 <kipple> from the direction specified by g
19:01:41 <kipple> (I don't understand the problem)
19:02:25 <Keymaker> should the b affect to every instruction
19:02:39 <Keymaker> or do instruction take the amount of argument pixels they need
19:02:50 <kipple> some instructions will have a constant number of arguments, so then it is not needed
19:03:15 <kipple> so we don't really need it
19:03:35 <kipple> but it is nice because we can have functions with a variable number of args
19:03:46 <kipple> but perhaps we can find better use for b
19:04:20 <Keymaker> by the way, as well, when there are those argument pixels..
19:04:37 <Keymaker> should the instruction take data from their r and g and b
19:04:50 <kipple> I'd say that should depend on the instruction
19:05:01 <kipple> copy_are should take all
19:05:19 <kipple> but there must be a way to manipulate them individually
19:05:30 <kipple> that is something b could be used for
19:06:06 <kipple> b determines whether values are taken from r,g,b or all
19:07:22 <kipple> what about instructions that return values? should we restrict return values to 8 or 16 bits?
19:07:32 <Keymaker> ah, i was just going to mention that
19:07:43 <kipple> or should we overwrite the entire pixel at IP?
19:07:59 <Keymaker> that could depend on instruction
19:08:28 <kipple> that's probably the best way to do it
19:08:37 <Keymaker> 16 bit values could be divided into two cells, g and b, if wanted
19:08:46 <Keymaker> but does anyone use that big number these days ;)
19:10:14 <kipple> the instruction could also just overwrite the arguments
19:10:50 <Keymaker> but i think it's best to make that instruction-dependable
19:10:51 <kipple> but then again, has to be different for each instruction
19:11:16 <Keymaker> if wanting to make bigger values,
19:11:36 <Keymaker> naturally it could be that each r, g and b are for example 32 bit values
19:11:45 <Keymaker> that in the beginning just get values from 0 to 255
19:12:13 <kipple> but it wouldn't work in a visual interpreter
19:13:11 <Keymaker> anyways, i'm really excited about the visual interpreter.. that will be really nice
19:13:16 <kipple> bah. 8 bits is more than anyone's ever gonna need, right?
19:13:39 <Keymaker> maybe we should just keep all 8 bits
19:14:18 <kipple> you should be able to address larger blocks than 8 bits though
19:14:39 <Keymaker> just add two arguments for one value
19:15:24 <Keymaker> nobody will ever need to copy bigger than maxium 16-bit value width areas
19:15:43 <kipple> that's a pretty big image, yes
19:16:24 <Keymaker> what resolution would be good?
19:17:20 <kipple> do you need specific res? why not a windowed app?
19:17:47 <Keymaker> what if the ip moves out of the window?
19:18:45 <Keymaker> i'm not sure if can get this thing programmed, though.. i'm not that good with any real langs, not to mention that i should do something with graphics or gui
19:19:27 <kipple> the largest image I've worked with is 29952 x 11520, so 16 bits should be enough :)
19:19:40 <kipple> well, lets make a spec first, and think about implementation later
19:20:10 <kipple> I don't have time to work on an interpreter at this time
19:20:15 <Keymaker> and let's someone else, say GregorR write the interpreter :)
19:20:26 -!- int-e has set topic: Uhm, where are these archives again?.
19:20:55 <Keymaker> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
19:21:11 -!- int-e has set topic: archives of previous discussions can be found at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:21:25 <int-e> thanks. I like to have that link in the topic.
19:21:38 <kipple> this one is better formatted: http://meme.b9.com/~13835c5e839f38a85e97aeef~/cdates.html?channel=esoteric
19:21:59 <Keymaker> i personally prefer the link i posted :)
19:22:45 <kipple> less ugly link: http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric
19:23:44 <Keymaker> i think the program should read the input from a file
19:24:05 <kipple> we don't really need file output, but ok
19:24:24 <kipple> should they be images?
19:25:13 <Keymaker> but then making it read for example normal text files would be quite difficult
19:25:35 <GregorR> Apparently my powerful interpreters have gained notoriety :P
19:26:04 <int-e> the meme link is updated more quickly, I like that
19:26:18 -!- int-e has set topic: archives of previous discussions can be found at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ and also at http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
19:26:19 <kipple> don't let Gregor do it. then it will only ouput RXML!
19:26:33 <GregorR> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
19:27:16 <int-e> Sorting mailbox...Segmentation fault
19:27:19 <GregorR> How about jpeg, so the program doesn't actually do what you programmed it to :P
19:28:12 <kipple> cat would then be a whatever to jpg converter :)
19:29:01 <kipple> anyway, if we go with normal file IO it should be pretty straight forward I think
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19:29:46 <GregorR> Since there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of a nop there :P
19:30:11 <kipple> read/write could take arguments specifying the area to fill/read from
19:30:25 <kipple> anything that is not an instruction should be NOP
19:31:16 <kipple> anyway, did we agree on the canvas size?
19:31:23 <kipple> infinite in all directions?
19:31:35 <kipple> (negative coordinates)
19:32:07 <Keymaker> but naturally we can change that if you want to
19:32:18 <kipple> so, the source is placed at (0,0) but can move into negatives during exec
19:33:01 <kipple> then we need negative numbers in arguments :)
19:33:26 <Keymaker> well, what about using the 16 bit values
19:33:33 <kipple> well, we can do without, but it would be nice
19:33:49 <Keymaker> i was just thinking something and didn't realize to continue:
19:34:10 <Keymaker> i mean if we're using 16 bit values, that are taken from two arguments (like g and b)
19:34:34 <Keymaker> we could do the usual trick if the value is bigger than 16000 something
19:35:08 <kipple> we could just treat it as a signed integer. no need to do tricks
19:35:26 <int-e> 16383. and you mean the same thing
19:35:29 <Keymaker> that's what i was trying to say :D
19:35:39 <GregorR> I would suggest some sort of bignumish support for having numeric values in the gb-rgb-rgb-... stream.
19:36:02 <GregorR> So that you can truly support infinite area.
19:36:05 <int-e> hmm. actually should be 32767, byt that's ok (or did you use another bit for something else?)
19:36:45 <kipple> int-e: you are correct
19:37:44 <Keymaker> btw, i need go for a while.. i'll be back soon..
19:38:38 <kipple> I'll probably be gone then
19:59:46 <kipple> updated the wiki article
19:59:55 <kipple> with some suggestions for G
20:03:02 <Keymaker> perhaps we could have instructions for getting the next byte and outputting only one byte?
20:04:09 <Keymaker> good, because i want to make the traditional digital root calculator :)
20:04:09 <kipple> how about: if G is 0 then take argument from b?
20:04:37 <Keymaker> what about the directions then?
20:04:59 <kipple> if G > 0 take B number of arguments in the direction specified by G
20:05:28 <Keymaker> should've thought about that before asking :)
20:05:43 <kipple> that could apply to most instructions
20:06:59 <kipple> so, should we have diagonal directions for the args? or just right angles?
20:07:17 <Keymaker> i think diagonal would be better
20:07:32 <kipple> yeah, why not. we're wasting enough bits already :)
20:08:32 <Keymaker> or wait.. i meant by diagonal to read the arguments from the direction g tells..
20:09:40 <kipple> um. that's what I meant. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you...
20:09:53 <Keymaker> sorry, i didn't quite understand :)
20:10:09 <Keymaker> anyways, that's what i think is the best.. to check the direction from g
20:10:28 <kipple> but how many directions are there? 4 or 8?
20:10:58 <kipple> though it will probably not be used
20:11:27 <int-e> how about the 8 knight jumps :P
20:12:27 <Keymaker> at least we have many instructions to use..
20:12:50 <Keymaker> so, having 8 instead of 4 wouldn't hurt
20:14:13 <Keymaker> should we have stuff that something is ==, > or <?
20:16:41 <Keymaker> i mean that return 0 if two values aren't same and 1 if they're equal and so on..
20:17:34 <kipple> or one instruction for each
20:18:03 <Keymaker> yeah, one instruction for each is good
20:18:10 <kipple> and the result could affect the IP, not return a value
20:18:35 <kipple> all control flow should be via the IP
20:19:36 <kipple> it could compare just g and b, but we should probably be able to compare larger values as well
20:19:50 <Keymaker> (since we have plenty of instructions, perhaps we should have ==, !=, <, >, <=, >=?)
20:20:59 <Keymaker> naturally it could be that those instructions just take more arguments
20:21:53 <kipple> how about: if G>0 then take arguments as normal. if G== then compare b to 0
20:22:19 <kipple> if G=0 then compare b to 0
20:22:36 <Keymaker> hmm, you mean in this specific instruction?
20:23:31 <kipple> well, in general G=0 means use only B as arg.
20:24:13 <Keymaker> by the way, what directions to use for the ip in those cases?
20:24:53 <Keymaker> that if true, them let ip continue, otherwise turn the direction..
20:25:04 <kipple> i don't think reverse is good
20:25:25 <kipple> how about: combining ==,> and <
20:25:42 <kipple> if equal, continue forward. if greater go right, if less go left
20:27:12 <kipple> that instruction could handle all manipulation of the IP
20:27:29 <kipple> anyway, now I gotta go.
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21:05:50 <calamari> I think I'm going to abandon my 2-d language for now. I want to work on other projects :) What ever you guys come up with will be great anyways.
21:06:24 <Keymaker> ok.. and thanks, i hope it's going to be great
21:07:06 <Keymaker> good luck with the other projects
21:07:22 <calamari> One thing I was planning to do differently was to use the lower 2 bits of each RGB, to give 6 bits to work with. This way it's harder to see the program, but it's still faintly there
21:08:12 <calamari> 2 bits would determine the next cell: straight, turn left, turn right, choose: a<b left, a>b right, a==b straight
21:08:26 <calamari> and two registers a & b obviously :)
21:09:03 <Keymaker> kipple has made some very clever ideas for movement
21:09:24 <calamari> that left 4 bits for an instruction.. so 16 instructions. I figured that multiple 4 bit chunks would be used for data
21:09:56 <calamari> kinda like in asm ,where after an opcode is given, the next few bytes given are data rather than opcodes
21:10:27 <calamari> I was reading some of the logs and you both ahve come up with some great ideas
21:10:47 <Keymaker> it's very fun to do cooperative language
21:13:32 <calamari> I have a Java 2D graphing program I wrote that should be able to be redone for whatever you need, in case you decide not to go with SDL
21:14:42 <Keymaker> writing the interpreter for this language will be quite hard i assume..
21:15:00 <calamari> are you going to be doing jix's spiral idea?
21:15:55 <Keymaker> it's nice idea but we want to make the language as simple as possible
21:16:02 <Keymaker> and since there is no data pointer,
21:16:25 <Keymaker> making the instruction pointer behave that would be difficult for the programmer :)
21:18:15 <calamari> one thing I began to realize with mine is that if I limited the data pointer to the cell I was in, that would make it impossible to have an artibrary effect on a single memory location
21:18:40 <calamari> so some kind of offset system or my box bushing or whatever might be needed
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10:06:15 <mtve> hehe, another one esoteric lang http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Boot_Code_of_the_Xbox
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16:51:18 <tokigun> I suggest adding palette support and different color space rather than RGB to RXML
16:51:42 <GregorR> That could actually reduce the size though.
16:52:13 <tokigun> but different color space can be fun
16:52:16 <GregorR> OR I could make it have palette support, but by default that palette is every possible color (+ alpha!)
16:52:39 <GregorR> So there's a gigantic <palette> section at the beginning that's so huge as to still make RXML bigger :P
16:52:45 <tokigun> like <indexed-color index="16777215" /> ? :)
16:53:25 <jix> cmyk support
16:53:31 <jix> 4 components vs 3
16:53:51 <tokigun> jix: in fact there is 5 components because of alpha channel
16:54:12 <jix> cmyk has redundant data and that's good
16:54:18 <GregorR> CMYK*A (* = THE UNFATHOMABLE COLOR OF DOOOOOOOM!!!!!)
16:54:34 <GregorR> Actually, why stick to the visible range?
16:54:59 <jix> but UV and IR are additive CMYK are subtractive
16:55:03 <jix> you can't mix them
16:55:13 <jix> hmm you can
16:55:14 <GregorR> Which is why I used ROYGBIV there ;)
16:55:16 <jix> why not ^^
16:55:35 <tokigun> we can use YCbCr... it used in jpeg to make compression better but in RXML it doesn't help :P
16:55:55 <jix> hey use mathematic function for discribing the whole spectrum!
16:56:18 <jix> f(frequency)=>intensity
16:56:30 <jix> and use xml math
16:57:06 <jix> <expression><add><constant="1"><frequency></add></expression>
16:57:50 <jix> that's invalid
16:57:54 <jix> <constatn="1" />
16:57:58 <jix> <drequency />
16:58:06 <GregorR> rAdio, Microwave, iNfrared, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet, Ultraviolet, X-rays, gamma
16:58:08 <tokigun> jix: <constant>1</constant> is valid.
16:58:17 <jix> that is really cool and hard to convert and stupid
16:58:26 <jix> but you have the full spectrum
16:58:28 <tokigun> of course <constant value="1" /> is also valid but <constant="1" /> is invalid
16:59:12 <GregorR> Really, there's no reason to have the full spectrum, in such a case it ought to be <light frequency="..."/>
16:59:35 <jix> GregorR: no... that's not enough
16:59:47 <GregorR> Oh, it would also need a K.
17:06:17 <tokigun> expanding an idea of RXML, there should be something like WXML(Wave XML) for symmetry.
17:12:06 <GregorR> And RXML would be easily (?) convertable into WXML :)))
17:16:17 <jix> frequency=".." wouldn't work
17:16:23 <jix> because white is more than one frequency
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17:22:05 <jix> back to XML math functions *g*
17:22:26 <jix> GregorR: good idea
17:22:35 <GregorR> <sample amplitude="..." ... />
17:22:44 <jix> it should use wavelet transforms
17:22:48 <jix> but without compression
17:22:59 <jix> because input and output of a wavelet transform has the same size
17:23:31 <GregorR> So, make it more compressable, then don't compress it.
17:23:43 <GregorR> Sort of like for (i = 0; i < 1000000000; i++);
17:23:57 <jix> or do a reverse transformation on the original data
17:24:01 <jix> make it less compressable
17:24:20 <jix> and use binary numbers
17:24:22 <jix> 100101010.10101010!
17:24:36 <jix> and checksum for every sample!
17:24:44 <GregorR> And the default frequency is, instead of 44 or 48kHz, 44mHz
17:24:58 <GregorR> Well beyond the ability for humans to tell the difference.
17:25:10 <jix> hmm well my harddisk is only 160gb
17:25:20 <GregorR> Oh, that could cause a problem then :P
17:25:42 <jix> maybe use 44 khz at the begining and 99 at the end
17:26:13 <GregorR> <sample amplitude="..." location="..." checksum="..."/>
17:26:20 <jix> haha location!
17:26:31 <jix> location in nano-seconds
17:26:33 <GregorR> That way you could move around all the samples in the input XML :P
17:27:20 <jix> oh the samples have to be sorted by checksum
17:27:28 <jix> it's invalid to not do it
17:27:38 <jix> and every decode has to check it
17:27:44 <GregorR> That makes it difficult, but not actually larger, so it's just sort of strange :P
17:27:50 <jix> (sorting all samples is sloooow)
17:27:59 <jix> and takes much ram!
17:28:26 <GregorR> Oh, and each sample has to have a name field, which must be at least 14 alphanumeric characters :P
17:29:11 <jix> channel="14char long channel"
17:29:14 <GregorR> <channel number=1><sample amplitude="..." location="..." checksum="..."/>...<,/channel>
17:29:35 <GregorR> number, what was I thinking?!
17:30:08 <jix> no we have to store the x,y and z position and 3d rotation of the speakers and the volume of the speaker and the V range of the speaker
17:30:20 <jix> think of a V and how tall it is as V range
17:30:37 <jix> because there are speakers that make sounds in all directions
17:30:53 <jix> but that can't be done on per sample basis
17:31:14 <GregorR> <sample amplitude="..." location="..." checksum="..." name="..." channel="DOLBY Digital 5.1 Audio Subwoofer"/>
17:31:27 <GregorR> The channel has to have precisely the correct name to work.
17:31:42 <jix> no it has to be in the supported speaker table
17:31:48 <jix> but the table has some spelling errors
17:32:28 <GregorR> <sample amplitude="..." location="..." checksum="..." name="..." channel="DOLBY Digitle Five Point Won Odio Sub-woofer"/>
17:32:29 <jix> channel="DLOBY Figital 5:1 Audoi Suwboofer"
17:33:22 <jix> DOLBY (registered trademark)...
17:34:13 <GregorR> BTW, the checksum has to be a 4096-bit hash.
17:34:29 <jix> amplitude="one thousand two hundred fifty two point three"
17:35:00 <GregorR> I think roman numerals might be more esoteric :P
17:35:06 <jix> hahahahah!
17:35:10 <jix> that rules
17:35:16 <jix> but we have to use the 1000 notation
17:35:27 <jix> because a - over a letter means x 1000
17:35:42 <jix> but we can't paint - over letters in xml
17:35:50 <jix> so we have to use a prefix notation
17:35:56 <jix> _V => 5000
17:37:28 <GregorR> But that's a mere one character :)
17:37:43 <jix> they use _V for 5000
17:37:48 <jix> but we could use MMMMM
17:38:33 <GregorR> OK, I'm going to be crazy and do work now, see you later :P
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18:31:30 <Keymaker> i got two wisdom teeth removed from my jaw
18:41:58 <GregorR> I had all four of my wisdom teeth removed in one sitting.
18:43:14 <GregorR> Have you gone chipmunk-faced? :)
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20:00:45 <jix> i got all four 7. teeth removed
20:01:13 <jix> and i'll get the wisdom teeth removed too...
20:01:30 <GregorR> Hmm, jix has tooth problems?
20:02:07 <jix> to many tooth for my jaw...
20:03:03 <jix> i had braces for many years too
20:08:28 <GregorR> I had braces for two years ... and the (evil) Herbst (sp) Appliance
20:09:44 <calamari> <brag>never had braces, and only one cavity..</brag>
20:10:09 <calamari> did have to get my wisdom teeth taken out, though
20:10:47 <calamari> <-- not as wise anymore.. guess that's how I fell for all this esoteric stuff hehe
20:13:19 <GregorR> I have a retainer permanently affixed to my lower teeth :P
20:13:29 <GregorR> Yeah, that's right! I'm a cyborg! WOOOH!
20:15:00 <calamari> I have a calculator watch semi-permanently attached to my left arm.... :(
20:15:25 <GregorR> I have an onHandPC wrist PDA.
20:16:12 <GregorR> Damn right! Damn proud! Damn ... well, you get the picture.
20:16:13 <jix> i have a computer-mouse in my hand
20:16:30 <calamari> cool.. how long do the batteries last?
20:16:39 <GregorR> About 2mo. with regular use.
20:17:16 <calamari> this casio watch the batteries last years.. wonder if a programmable watch could be made to last that long
20:18:38 <jix> i'd like to have a little programmable device...
20:18:57 <jix> hmm i have my ti89.. but ti-basic sucks and ti-gcc is winonly
20:19:15 <calamari> only need 8 instructions.... ;)
20:19:20 <jix> stupid delphi-writtin binary converter...
20:19:31 <jix> calamari: yes but i don't have "them"
20:19:59 <jix> my calculator is able to solve complex equations but there is no brainfuck interpreter
20:20:09 <GregorR> I think it's a well-established fact that you do NOT need 8 instructions :P
20:20:20 <calamari> I wrote a bf interp for ti-82.. wonder if it'd work
20:20:52 <calamari> GregorR: yeah, but you understood my cryptic comment, so it was effective :)
20:21:03 <jix> calamari: no
20:21:07 <jix> ti89 basic is different
20:21:16 <GregorR> calamari: I don't know if I would consider that as cryptic on this channel ;)
20:21:19 <calamari> well, write one.. would be very easy for you
20:21:35 <jix> calamari: no because input/output handling sucks!
20:21:55 <calamari> I want to write another for my hp48, but only after I learn how to do it in ASM
20:22:10 <jix> and there are programs and functions.. functions may return values... but may not use IO .. programs may use IO but may not return values that's STUPID!
20:22:30 <calamari> jix: iirc I used vectors for i/o
20:23:20 <jix> calamari: but i want to use the I/O screen for I/O
20:23:59 <calamari> one sad thing is that the newer casio watches are all fat.. I guess they don't remember how to make em slim anymore. had to get this one off ebay
20:25:27 <jix> i thought about designing my own cpu+computer
20:25:45 <jix> my brother has a fpga... but the software is windows only...
20:25:55 <GregorR> http://tigcc.ticalc.org/linux.html
20:26:03 <jix> GregorR: i'm on osx
20:26:13 <jix> and it uses x86 only parts
20:26:16 <GregorR> It says that it tries to be *nix-compatible
20:26:19 <calamari> would need custom lcd's for the watch too.. bet that's not cheap
20:26:33 <GregorR> Well, soon enough, you'll be on x86 too BWAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH Intel wins.
20:27:20 <jix> i'm going to build my own computer based on 1802 cpus
20:27:41 <calamari> haven't heard of that one.. when was it manufactured?
20:28:04 <GregorR> "I am also maintaining compatibility with Linux on non-x86 platforms and with other Unices (*BSD, MacOS X etc.)."
20:28:16 <calamari> nice.. I was building an 8085 based computer but never finished it
20:28:17 <jix> but it doesn't work
20:28:19 <jix> i tried it
20:28:44 <jix> maybe the newest version works
20:28:51 <jix> he says he fixed something
20:29:22 <jix> the setup was strange anyway
20:30:18 <jix> i wanted to try it cause there was a new working ti-emulator for non windows then...
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22:27:23 <calamari> just curious, is the second part of this song title in a language any of you guys know? Fishbirdmittemellan
22:28:02 <Keymaker> sounds like combination of english and german
22:29:01 <Keymaker> not sure, since i haven't read it for two years
22:30:01 <Keymaker> let's take a look at good ol' babelfish: translate Rabarbersaft from German to English.. the result is:
22:31:47 <calamari> hmm, some www searches shows Finnish.. maybe? :)
22:32:56 <calamari> my guess too, but who knows hehe
22:33:48 <jix> rababersaft is rababer? juice
22:34:09 <liebestraume> there's people who speak swedish in #haskell, you could ask them :)
22:34:47 <Keymaker> hmm yes, it sounds like swedish
22:34:55 <Keymaker> i should have guessed/known that
22:35:05 <Keymaker> can't remember what it means, though
22:35:09 <calamari> found a swedish - english dictionary .. checking it out :)
22:35:16 <Keymaker> (in case i have even heard it)
22:35:38 <GregorR> calamari has a Swedish-English dictionary handy ... that's ... odd.
22:40:16 <calamari> definitely Swedish.. thanks :)
22:41:04 <GregorR> mitt = my and emellan = between ... my between?
22:42:04 <Keymaker> i thought it was something between stuff too
22:43:38 <calamari> cool.. was breaking up the word wrong.. thought it was mitte
22:44:54 <calamari> so, half-fish half-bird.. hehe
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22:49:22 <calamari> hrm.. I think I'm going to need a 3 word parser for my game
22:49:43 <calamari> that's going to complicate things
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00:09:21 <jix> GregorR: talk!
00:09:34 <jix> ok it works
00:10:23 <jix> graph is a social network bot
00:10:59 <jix> it analyzes who talks and paints: http://macintosh.jix.qz-b.de/graph/esoteric/esoteric-current.png
00:13:10 <jix> calamari_: hi
00:13:29 <jix> i thought that bot is pretty cool
00:13:31 <calamari_> listening to some old mods while I work out the details of my adventure game
00:13:43 <jix> hehe mods are cool
00:15:30 <calamari_> {^Raven^}: putting you on the graph ;)
00:15:49 <jix> {^Raven^}: /me too
00:16:59 <calamari_> do you do the graph drawing/centering yourself?
00:17:11 <jix> no i'm using a ready to run java bot
00:17:29 <jix> but i thought about writing something like this in ruby
00:17:34 <jix> but i don't have enough time atm
00:18:52 <calamari_> you could have it follow the conversation
00:19:06 <calamari_> would never be perfect, but close enough
00:19:14 <jix> follow the conversation?
00:19:31 <calamari_> I don't have to say "jix" but you know I'm talking to you, because I said jix: earlier
00:19:39 <jix> the bot does that
00:23:13 * GregorR wonders why calamari_ hey'd him ...
00:23:35 <jix> GregorR: http://macintosh.jix.qz-b.de/graph/esoteric/esoteric-current.png
00:23:50 <jix> social network diagram
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00:24:29 <jix> ok nick changes work
00:24:34 <GregorR> So if I say "jix R teh rawx0rz" often, it would show a more bold link between you and I?
00:24:48 <jix> GregorR: yes
00:24:55 <pgimeno> hi, sorry to be late to the previous half-bird half-fish discussion... this is not exactly that but it's not very unlike that: http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1738/
00:24:55 <jix> but you don't have to highlite me
00:25:11 <jix> pgimeno: hey http://macintosh.jix.qz-b.de/graph/esoteric/esoteric-current.png
00:25:35 <pgimeno> I already knew about it from a guy called FennecFoxen
00:25:48 <jix> GregorR: it is "intelligent" and just "knows" when we talk
00:26:45 <ZeroOne> it's not very difficult... it just spies on when people write lines after each other.
00:27:15 <pgimeno> calamari: yeah, I loved that image... it's in my Evilbunny favourite list
00:27:42 <jix> ZeroOne: yes the graph drawing is more difficult..
00:28:35 <pgimeno> as is this one (slightly more related to this channel's topic): http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1808/
00:28:42 <ZeroOne> but it doesn't take much of artificial intelligence to see people send messages to each other turn by turn
00:28:53 <calamari> I did some graph drawing for a class a few sesters ago.. I just constrained the points to a big circle
00:28:54 <ZeroOne> and then notice that hey, maybe they are talking together
00:29:21 <jix> pgimeno: LOL
00:29:42 <jix> ZeroOne: that's why i quoted the words
00:30:37 <ZeroOne> ok, apparently my sense of humor then just went to sleep before me. ;o
00:32:39 <pgimeno> oh btw, mtve, thanks for the link to that xbox page, I loved it :)
00:37:06 <pgimeno> this one not bad either (image file name is 'how-to-export-crypto-system-from-USA.jpg'): http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1952
00:45:23 <GregorR> What's the original software for that social network diagram?
00:46:47 <GregorR> Bravo Gregor, way to read the tagline on the image before asking a stupid question.
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01:04:11 <cpressey> cpressey: stop trying to confuse the social network tracking software!
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01:28:22 <pgimeno> it apparently associates a yet unknown commenter with the writer of the last line
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01:33:57 <calamari> or did it erase me when I left?
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01:35:01 <calamari> nope.. guess I just confused it :)
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01:35:29 <suppy> pgimeno: fine, thanks
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08:21:19 <GregorR> According to the social connections image, I don't talk to calamari at all.
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13:19:38 <jix> graph is back
13:19:46 <jix> it works now
13:20:02 <jix> i had to reset the graph
13:20:26 <jix> http://macintosh.jix.qz-b.de/graph/esoteric/current.png (still the old image but if we talk it gets updated)
15:34:49 <jix> it's boring here
15:35:09 <jix> GregorR: do something un-boring
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21:37:48 <GregorR> Are you suggesting that I never do anything un-boring?
21:39:38 <calamari> anything exciting today? cmeme seems to be mia
21:41:23 <GregorR> No, I'm just waiting for DirectNet-related emails.
21:41:53 <calamari> have you done any 3d programming?
21:42:56 <GregorR> Because network programming > 3D graphics
21:43:31 <calamari> I think it'd be cool to see that new gravity/motion esolang implemented in 3-D, showing the orbits
21:44:16 <calamari> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Gravity
21:45:47 <calamari> since that doesn't require a #-D card afaik
21:47:22 <jix> use opengl because java 3d has problems
21:47:35 <fizzie> Java3D has the freaky HiResCoord class. A 3-element vector of 256-bit fixed-point (128.128) numbers.
21:47:45 <fizzie> "This coordinate system is sufficient to describe a universe in excess of several billion light years across, yet still define objects smaller than a proton."
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21:48:34 <GregorR_> So THAT'S what that quit menu does.
21:48:46 <jix> GregorR: haha
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21:49:13 <calamari> I thought Gravity was 3-D.. oh well!
21:49:22 <jix> i need a cryptographic secure 1 bit hash function
21:50:13 <fizzie> "You might get some hash collisions with that."
21:50:29 <jix> no it's possible to calculate a msg with given parity using simple math!
21:51:14 <jix> well it's always possible to do this with a 1 bit hash
21:51:23 <jix> some_number + hash
21:51:32 <jix> figuring out some_number should be easy
21:51:47 <jix> ok i need a 2 bit hash
21:52:32 <jix> maybe i should calculate the WHIRLPOOL hash of the msg and take the parity of all even and all odd bits
21:52:38 <jix> WHIRLPOOL is very secure
21:52:44 <jix> so my 2 bit hash is it too
21:53:16 <fizzie> It's probably quite easy to calculate a message with the given 2-bit hash, too, with simple brute-forcing.
21:53:21 <jix> i'm going to encrypt all my msgs using double rot13 and sign them using my 2 bit hash
21:53:48 <jix> fizzie: psshhh i'm going to sell this technology to m$
21:53:54 <jix> don't tell them
21:53:55 <fizzie> Well, it sure sounds secure.
21:54:25 <jix> and why use prime-numbers for RSA/DSA? they are so hard to compute
21:54:40 <jix> why not use 2^n+n?
21:55:13 <jix> no digital root is insecure
21:55:14 <fizzie> They'll ask you how you will be able to recognize the odd bits (as opposed to plain old normal, non-odd bits) in messages.
21:55:16 <jix> WHIRLPOOL is secure
21:56:32 <jix> fizzie: i'll tell them that i load all bits in an exel 2020 table and take every 2nd!(they like usage of their products)
21:58:59 <fizzie> And where do you draw the line! Are all the bits in odd words (or out-of-context-words, like pallokala) considered odd.
22:00:57 <jix> yes! i'm using word 2020s grammar/spelling checks for detecting odd words
22:15:57 <calamari> wait.. is Gravity not supposed to be able to be implemented?
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17:30:01 <jix> .....tttzzzzzZZZZZZZZZ
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01:52:41 <jix> idea: the sourcecode of the lang has to pass some random-number-tests
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01:54:47 <jix> calamari: you missed my idea AND hi
01:54:52 <jix> 02:53:44<jix>idea: the sourcecode of the lang has to pass some random-number-tests
01:55:26 <jix> a new lang
01:55:43 <jix> it's hard to pass random number tests with non random data
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01:55:54 <jix> hmm lets say it is impossible *g*
01:55:59 <jix> moin heatsink
01:56:12 <pgimeno> I disagree, pseudorandom data is not random data
01:56:18 <jix> i'm working on a little prng tester
01:56:46 <jix> pgimeno: yes but there are some tests that say how much random-alike data is..
01:56:58 <pgimeno> there are lots, each specialized in one kind of failure of PRNGs
01:57:26 <calamari> just because somethign is statistically random doesn't mean that it is... it all depends on the source
01:58:07 <jix> calamari: i can generate true random data
01:58:16 <pgimeno> by definition (for certain definitions, anyway) a PRNG is not a RNG
01:58:21 <jix> pgimeno: yes
01:58:23 <calamari> if the only source is a computer algorithm, it's never really random
01:59:02 <jix> http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/
01:59:43 <pgimeno> http://www.lavarnd.org/ ;)
01:59:52 <calamari> jix: that's an outside source of randomness :)
02:00:08 <pgimeno> afaik there's an Intel chip with an integrated RNG
02:00:37 <calamari> yeah.. the old Atari's had random number hardware as well
02:01:07 <pgimeno> anyway, e.g. Malbolge would pass some (very loosy) randomness tests
02:01:24 <jix> calamari: that's why i said ack...
02:01:34 <jix> calamari: if the source is a computer algorithm its not random
02:01:38 <calamari> it was pretty good too, because some of the cheesier emulators using stock C rng's produced artifacts in starfields because of the lack of randomness
02:02:16 <calamari> jix: which tests will you be using?
02:02:48 <jix> calamari: i started with entropy
02:03:06 <jix> than a test i came up by myself
02:03:26 <jix> count all byte pairs
02:04:05 <jix> and generate entropy for every byte followed by another byte (entropy for all \x00\anychars... and \x01\anychar...)
02:04:18 <jix> take the difference of each entropy from 8 and square it
02:04:21 <jix> sum the whole thing
02:04:23 <jix> and output it
02:04:34 <jix> maybe it has a name
02:04:38 <jix> but i came up with this
02:04:47 <jix> next thing i'm going to add is move-to-front entropy
02:04:57 <jix> move-to-front is an algorithm for reducing the entropy of data
02:05:02 <jix> shouldn't work with random data
02:05:16 <jix> i'm going to add common test later
02:05:22 <jix> chi-square is a common test
02:05:34 <jix> monte-carlo-pi too
02:05:56 <jix> arithmetic mean too...
02:06:37 <calamari> mean dust coming off this book.. hasn't been opened in years.. hehe
02:06:53 <jix> i like random numbers
02:07:03 <jix> they are cool
02:07:29 <calamari> maybe you can improve upon my bf lcg
02:07:50 <calamari> generate random #'s in bf with a fixed amount of memory
02:07:56 <jix> calamari: implement a mersenne-twister-something
02:08:12 <calamari> hehe, was reading about that on wikipedia
02:08:21 <jix> ruby uses them
02:08:26 <jix> and they pass all test i did on them
02:08:46 <jix> oh and rule30 rng was very bad
02:09:05 <pgimeno> MT works pretty well from a practical standpoint, yes
02:09:25 <pgimeno> (though the final mapping step sounds a bit suspicious to me)
02:09:59 <jix> oh and the c code i write is bad as always
02:12:49 <jix> does work doesn't it? for(i=0;i<256;alphabet_positions[i]=i++);
02:13:09 <jix> sets alphabet_positions to {0,1...,255}
02:13:38 <jix> in ruby i'd write alphabet_positions=(0..255).to_a
02:13:41 <jix> but ruby is to slow
02:14:29 <pgimeno> that assignment has side effects
02:14:42 <pgimeno> that's not valid C code IIRC
02:14:51 <jix> it compiles
02:15:10 <pgimeno> the LHS uses a value that changes in the RHS; the result is undefined
02:16:19 <jix> i hate c.. but it's fast.. and easy
02:16:25 <pgimeno> please trust a little more on compiler optimizations :)
02:16:38 <jix> pgimeno: that wasn't speed optimization
02:16:43 <jix> that was code length optimizations
02:16:57 <jix> i hate to write much code for little things
02:17:01 <pgimeno> for (i=0; i<256; i++) alphabet_positions[i] = i; not that different :)
02:17:08 <jix> a few bytes ;)
02:17:22 <jix> hhmm 1 byte
02:17:32 <jix> but that's a byte
02:17:33 <pgimeno> ok, rename alphabet_positions to alpha_pos and save lots ;)
02:17:56 <jix> no that's a good idea
02:17:58 <pgimeno> I tend to like descriptive programs
02:18:12 <jix> i too but c is long enough without them...
02:18:27 <jix> and pos is common for position
02:19:09 <jix> i like no variables at all
02:19:36 <jix> S K and I are enough..
02:24:14 <jix> char 0..256 *256:
02:24:15 <jix> Entropy: 8.000000000000
02:24:15 <jix> Move To Front Entropy: 0.067858437841
02:24:50 <jix> true random data:
02:24:51 <jix> Entropy: 7.997362466417
02:24:51 <jix> Move To Front Entropy: 7.997344450382
02:25:10 <jix> pseude random data is the same
02:26:02 <jix> heatsink: 1x-e+o at the right position
02:27:12 * heatsink looks up movo to front entropy
02:27:53 <jix> dont look up that
02:27:57 <pgimeno> that's s/e/o/ and not s/e/o/g
02:28:18 <jix> look up bwt and move to front
02:28:49 <pgimeno> I first knew it through bwt
02:29:40 <jix> my own test is good for detecting some bits random some bits not-random but high entropy
02:34:08 <jix> some creative ideas for tests?
02:34:08 <heatsink> ooh, is nifty the burrows wheeler algorithm
02:35:59 <jix> heatsink: tell them..
02:36:32 <heatsink> autocorrelation test; frequency count of each byte
02:37:06 <jix> frequency count of each byte does the same thing as entropy...
02:37:48 <jix> if the frequency count of each byte/file_size is different than 1/256 it's lower than 8
02:38:05 <jix> but it's easy to fool with (0..256)*256
02:38:21 <jix> that doesn't happen with mtf entropy
02:38:55 <heatsink> autocorrelation test has some advantages with detecting VLCs
02:39:14 <heatsink> or, generally, non-8-bit codes
02:40:01 <jix> all my tests besides entropy have a larger "window" than 8bit
02:41:47 <jix> Hot Bit Entropy implemented
02:42:10 <jix> entropy of last byte xor curren byte
02:42:38 <jix> if some bits change less often than other bits this one detects it
02:43:39 * jix has another cool idea
02:43:51 <jix> should help against bit-shifting algorithms
02:44:07 <jix> i try to come up with a prng and than how to detect it
02:44:46 <heatsink> Do you have a way to detect hashing-based prngs?
02:45:02 <jix> don't know them
02:45:08 <heatsink> I've heard that sometimes people use MD5 as a PRNG
02:45:38 <heatsink> repeatedly perform a hash on the same 20 bytes and take the low byte as the new number
02:45:59 <jix> that's difficult to detect
02:47:10 <jix> because they use cryptographic secure algorithms...(not 100% secure because it's possible to generate two msgs with the same hash) but if you only know the hash you can't construct a msg without brute forcing
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02:50:01 <heatsink> MD5 is allowed to destroy information though
02:50:24 <jix> for msgs longer than the hash it does
02:51:07 <jix> no but it looses only a few bits sometime with shorter/same length msgs
02:51:29 <jix> they have a good distribution of the data over all bits
02:51:35 <jix> that makes them a good checksum
02:57:01 <jix> hmm my unnamed algorithm seems to be good for many kinds of simple prng's
02:57:57 <jix> i'm using /dev/urandom as a control
02:58:24 <jix> because true random is too rare for testing it with 64kb...
02:58:43 <jix> gpg uses /dev/urandom so it has to be pretty good
03:00:29 <jix> sliding bit entropy has a max value somewhere around 6.74...
03:01:30 <jix> hmm no 6.75 is possible
03:02:22 <jix> 6.758 is the highest value i got
03:03:45 <jix> my randtester's binary is not random
03:05:23 <jix> ent is so much faster than my tool
03:06:18 <heatsink> I just made an md5 PRNG in python
03:09:38 <heatsink> do you want to test your tools on md5 hash output?
03:12:37 <heatsink> import sys;import md5;m = md5.new();seed = '\x000' * 19 + '\x014'
03:12:37 <heatsink> while 1:d = m.digest();sys.stdout.write(d);m.update(d)
03:12:47 <jix> ruby -r digest/md5 -e 'i="jix";10000.times{print i=Digest::MD5.digest(i)}'
03:13:27 <jix> the program needs to terminate because i pipe the date into the tester
03:14:10 <jix> as good as urandom
03:14:13 <jix> using my tests
03:14:57 <jix> using ent's tests too
03:15:13 <jix> (chi square and monte carlo pi and serial correlation)
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03:21:15 <heatsink> looks like you've got a quality prng.
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03:29:42 <jix> its 4:30am here
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04:35:40 <graue> how have things been in the esoteric community lately?
04:43:54 <graue> pretty boring I guess, bye
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16:00:01 <puzzlet> what.. Homespring website is down?
16:00:58 <puzzlet> thank god there's the archive
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16:35:40 <GregorR> Oh Lord, thank you for the Earth, thank you for the rains that give us crops, thank you for the shelter that keeps us warm and dry, and thank you for www.archive.org, amen.
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18:16:36 <jix> mmmoooiiinnn kkkeeeyyymmmaaakkkeeerrr
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18:40:11 <Keymaker> (sorry, didn't notice something happened here :)
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18:42:40 <int-e> I think that last e should've been an a ;)
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18:53:23 <GregorR> Graah, you closed your parens with a smily :P
18:53:39 <GregorR> (These parens are not closed :)
18:53:46 <GregorR> (These parens are closed :) )
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18:58:17 <lament> ()()())))()(()9()())(()
18:58:46 -!- int-e has joined.
19:01:45 <GregorR> :( There are no parens here :)
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22:18:29 <jix> {^Raven^}: and here? :]
22:18:41 <jix> i didn't wrote {^Raven^} ...
22:46:22 <GregorR> Yeah, suuuuure, tab-happy jix ;)
22:46:47 <jix> but {^Raven^}: is a funny smily
22:47:12 <jix> it's someone with no tooth on the right eating Raven
22:48:31 <GregorR> It's a guy wearing a silly hat with one eye and a broken noze, who's whispering while drooling into his beard, with one nipple and a sad animal at his feet.
23:15:49 <pgimeno> reverse smileys are cool (-: (-; (-B d:
23:16:51 <GregorR> Upside-down smileys are cooler o^o
23:17:21 <jix> invisible smileys rock:
23:42:08 <GregorR> I started writing a MUD engine.
23:42:25 <GregorR> One of those things that turns into an obsession really quickly.
23:42:49 <int-e> why would one do such a thing?
23:43:07 <GregorR> I have a few ideas that I think would be cool.
23:43:17 <GregorR> (I know, very stupid reason :) )
23:45:23 <int-e> oh yes, ideas are a dangerous thing
23:47:29 * int-e thinks happy thoughts.
23:50:42 <jix> nGHGHAhaghaghAHG
23:51:02 <jix> bad idea to join #math.. can't sleep now have to find a solution for the topic
23:53:58 <int-e> p(1)=1, p(2)=2 (1,1; 2), p(3)=3 (1+1+1; 1+2; 3)?
23:58:53 <jix> i've found an algorithm (recursive) for p(n)
00:01:21 <jix> uh and it doesn't work
00:02:35 <jix> mv * #math ^^
00:07:22 <jix> i don't see why my algorithm doesn't work
00:07:27 <jix> it work's with paper an pencil
00:10:49 <int-e> hmm, what does it do?
00:15:18 <jix> i have a function helper(n,k) that prints all partitions of n using number <=k
00:15:25 <jix> but it doesn't work
00:15:31 <jix> and i'm telling what i've done in ruby
00:15:45 <jix> i did something different on paper..
00:16:53 <int-e> hmm, it's easier to calculate the partitions of n that use exactly k numbers.
00:17:20 <int-e> calculate -> count.
00:17:32 <jix> found that on mathworld
00:18:33 <pgimeno> I got some answers on algorithms for calculating p(n) in sci.math some time ago...
00:19:30 <jix> the triangle of P(n,k) (partition of n with k numbers) looks like: go up 2 + go up 2 go left 1
00:19:37 <jix> but it only looks so
00:19:56 <jix> i should sleep
00:20:04 <int-e> P(n,k) = P(n-1,k-1)+P(n-k,k)
00:20:35 <int-e> the first gives the number of partitions that have a 1, the second one those that don't.
00:21:10 <jix> german keyboard layout?
00:21:20 <int-e> I'm not at home ;)
00:23:44 <GregorR> Oooh, Ö is an excellent one-character smiley 8-D
00:25:01 <jix> i can write a ÿ with only 3 keypresses
00:26:47 <int-e> hmm. I don't know if this X server config has a compose key.
00:34:34 <pgimeno> oh, I was wrong; my post was about Landau's function g, not about the number of partitions
00:34:50 <pgimeno> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/68a794c6d85c11d8/
00:35:58 <GregorR> I just wrote this ÿ with no keypresses.
00:36:06 <jix> GregorR: copy and paste?
00:36:14 <jix> ctrl-c ctrl-p?
00:36:44 <jix> but that are 2 mouse clicks
00:36:48 <jix> 1 for selecting 1 for pasting
00:36:55 <GregorR> Note that I was careful to say "keypresses" :)
00:40:23 <int-e> ok I have three solutions for the #math problem ... that's all with n<1000000.
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02:07:13 <int-e> it has everything, a left face side, {, a left eye, ^, a weird looking nose, Raven, a right eye, ^, and a right face side, }
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18:33:22 <WildHalcyon> So far. I switched clients, that might have helped too
18:36:52 <lament> I am a professional esolang senior architect
18:37:01 <lament> I work for NASA developing esolangs
18:37:35 <WildHalcyon> Glad to hear it. I bet NASA pays eso-dev senior architects pretty handsomely
18:40:24 <lament> the Shuttle computers run software written in my esoteric languages.
18:40:59 <lament> they used Brainfuck before, but they needed something more specific
18:41:48 <WildHalcyon> Yeah, I heard they're trying to blame BF for the tiles breaking off.
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18:42:47 <lament> a stupid claim. Brainfuck never fails.
18:43:36 <WildHalcyon> That's what I thought. You know how it is with those gov't types though.. always wanting to point the finger
18:46:14 <WildHalcyon> INTERCAL knows all about DC esolang scandals though, so its not like there's anything new
18:46:15 <Gs30ng> i thought they would program in trefunge to make it easier, like calculating a coordinate to launch the ship by a code cursor
18:46:58 <WildHalcyon> You'd need a pretty big code space to do that with reliable precision, wouldn't you?
18:47:37 <Gs30ng> or would i rather use brainfuck with 3d codespace?
18:48:11 <Gs30ng> like, not only <> but ^v and /\ or something
18:48:16 <WildHalcyon> Has anyone written a 3D bf derivative? I didn't see anything on the wiki
18:48:30 <Gs30ng> i meant 3d memory space, not code space
18:49:25 <Gs30ng> WildHalcyon, there's definitely one with 2D, like with <> and ^v, but i have no idea with 3D one
18:49:44 <WildHalcyon> 3D memory space huh? A cube instead of a tape?
18:51:15 <Gs30ng> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Hcbf
18:51:26 <Gs30ng> 4D brainfuck variant, i think
18:52:03 <WildHalcyon> I haven't had a chance to fiddle with that yet...
18:53:30 <WildHalcyon> Neither have I had a chance to try out the Funge-98 TOYS fingerprint, which regardless of use, has some great names
18:54:16 <WildHalcyon> (Sorry, that was OT, but I was looking at it at the time. Today, I have the attention span of a chiuahua)
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18:57:17 <WildHalcyon> Seriously though, are either of you working on any languages?
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18:58:38 <Gs30ng> well i used to design a stupid esolang when i was newbie...
18:58:47 <WildHalcyon> Im just curious, not for any particular reason.
18:58:51 <Gs30ng> if you wish i'll show the spec
18:59:04 <Gs30ng> it is just... inefficient
18:59:32 <Gs30ng> http://gs30ng.exca.net/udage/spec-en.xml
19:02:34 <WildHalcyon> I was working on an esolang a while ago too, but decided to get back in it again recently
19:03:45 <WildHalcyon> I had a bit of a stumbling block, and Im almost finished with the specification.
19:04:27 <WildHalcyon> I remember reading about Udage.. it does look inefficient, but most esolangs are ;-)
19:04:52 <Gs30ng> i mean that i could make the spec shorter and clearer
19:04:59 <WildHalcyon> I like the fact that its more of a pattern-matcher than using specific characters
19:05:37 <Gs30ng> i got NOT and conditional jump
19:05:42 <WildHalcyon> You probably could, but again - its esoteric. Shorter might not be possible, but clearer would be nice.
19:05:44 <Gs30ng> then i don't need NAND
19:06:06 <Gs30ng> i can make it with NOT and conditional jump things
19:06:25 <Gs30ng> i don't need any complicated operation like NANDN1
19:06:36 <Gs30ng> that's why i call it inefficient
19:07:30 <Gs30ng> or i could make it MORE complicated like harder than Malbolge to understand
19:08:11 <WildHalcyon> Well, keep working on it. I don't like complex just for the sake of being complex. I like "quirky, see what you can do with this"
19:08:15 <Gs30ng> but currently it's not clear or complicated. like... halfway?
19:09:05 <WildHalcyon> Malbolge ended up being quirky once someone figured out how to work with it, and it turns out that it does interesting things.
19:09:29 <WildHalcyon> Before that, I wasn't too interested in it, because it was designed to be awful
19:10:44 <Gs30ng> i still don't even understand what it is
19:11:36 <WildHalcyon> Its an evil evil language, all you really need to know unless you want to try to program in it.
19:13:39 <Gs30ng> well that's one of the core design goals in esolang
19:14:25 <WildHalcyon> Perhaps. I really look at esolangs as 3 schools of languages: EVIL, novel, and jokes
19:14:39 <Gs30ng> and i also want to design a lang like that, turing-complete but takes several years to make a 'Hello World!' program
19:15:16 <jix> oh that's simple
19:15:30 <jix> i made a lazy k hello world
19:15:42 <jix> lazy k is very simple to programm
19:15:47 <jix> i made 99bob in lazy k too
19:15:59 <WildHalcyon> I've seen the code for that... its.. er... messy
19:16:24 <jix> WildHalcyon: it comes with a code generating tool
19:16:39 <jix> you just write a lambda term and it converts it into SKI combinators
19:16:42 <WildHalcyon> oh, I wasn't aware of that. Well, that changes things
19:16:44 <jix> it's messy to do that by hand
19:16:50 <jix> it's possible (and i know how)
19:17:06 <jix> but it takes minutes for simple terms like \xyz.xzy
19:17:42 <WildHalcyon> Ive wanted to design a Java2K-Befunge varient that occassionally switched the cursor orientation randomly. I guess I could just implement that with fingerprints
19:17:43 <Gs30ng> well we hardly can make an esolang code without any tools
19:18:13 <Gs30ng> but there ARE, who do that
19:18:47 <WildHalcyon> Well, only if you want to do a large project with them
19:19:36 <jix> i have an idea for a turing complete language and it will take hours to generate the first cat programm and years for the first hello world programm
19:20:17 <jix> sha1 each sizeof(sha1) bytes and do => 0 => [ 1=> ]...
19:20:18 <Gs30ng> from now on don't even mention of it for world peace
19:20:25 <jix> and execute it as BF
19:20:48 <Gs30ng> that is presented once, like MaD5
19:24:55 <WildHalcyon> BF is great, because its a fundamental esolang tool (most languages prove they're TC by using BF)
19:25:50 <Gs30ng> although i'd rather do it using TM
19:26:12 <WildHalcyon> Anyhow, Gs30ng, good luck with improving Udage! Ive gotta go!
20:00:39 <GregorR> I think it's preferable to use BF as your intermediary rather than a true TM because BF is very VERY easy to read and parse.
20:40:30 <pgimeno> that opens an interesting question... what TC language is the easiest to parse?
20:41:11 <pgimeno> (easiest is a matter of intuition)
20:42:46 <pgimeno> in Brainfuck the forward/backward loop matching imposes an inherent difficulty
20:42:59 <pgimeno> perhaps OISC is simpler than BF
20:45:21 <Gs30ng> what TC language is the easiest to parse... perhaps non-esoteric lang is
20:45:32 <Gs30ng> but probably turing tarpit is
21:05:50 <lament> pgimeno: Jot, of course
21:06:13 <lament> a variant of brainfuck:
21:06:34 <lament> instead of [ some code, N characters ]
21:06:58 <lament> [[[[[ (N times) [[[ some code
21:07:06 <lament> N opening brackets, then the code
21:07:35 <lament> first, that gets rid of an instruction, which is nice already
21:07:44 <lament> second, any string becomes a valid BF program
21:08:03 <pgimeno> sorry, I should have said to parse and interpret
21:10:32 <lament> this depends on what language your interpreter is written in
21:10:51 <lament> lambda-calculus based languages are easy to interpret in other lambda-calculus based languages
21:14:14 <lament> oisc is pretty hard to interpret in lambda-calculus based languages
21:18:07 <pgimeno> well, I was hoping to reach some kind of an "universal" agreement on what is "easiest" in this context but it seems not to be so easy
21:18:33 <pgimeno> Gs30ng: yes, there's usually no concept of an "array" as such
21:19:21 <jix> only functions
21:19:24 <Gs30ng> i think in this case you should make it clear like this: easiest to interpret in our brains
21:20:11 <pgimeno> "easiest to interpret in certain of the commonly used languages" would probably be more precise
21:21:08 <lament> in our brains, heh heh
21:21:11 <pgimeno> but then again, what is easier: to write a conditional that tests the negativity, or to write the functions of lambda calculus?
21:22:10 <pgimeno> it's too philosophical a question, anyway
21:24:45 <Gs30ng> things like OOP concept is sometimes considered subjective
21:30:04 <WildHalcyon> lambda calculus and parsing BF... well.. thats sort of exciting
21:30:08 <Gs30ng> they seem not to be exciting
21:30:38 <Gs30ng> like, pretty important subject but i'm not *excited* :)
21:30:52 <Gs30ng> but this is also subjective
21:32:06 <jix> i'd like to have a geometrical lang
21:32:07 <Gs30ng> i haven't fully used lambda
21:32:17 <jix> where you build the program out of geometric objects
21:32:26 <jix> like circle line polygon...
21:33:17 <Gs30ng> code should describe a vector image, right?
21:33:18 <jix> hmm but how could such a program work...
21:34:23 <Gs30ng> i think the graph theory would help
21:35:03 <Gs30ng> but actually there are already some langs with it
21:35:13 <jix> polygons are instructions...
21:35:21 <jix> lines are code-flow
21:35:38 <jix> WildHalcyon: yes but they arn't 100% of simple geometric objects
21:35:56 <jix> circles could be used as control structures
21:36:03 <jix> GregorR: problem
21:36:11 <jix> RXML doesn't support vector images
21:36:11 <Gs30ng> RXML would be an answer
21:36:13 <GregorR> Way too difficult to parse shapes?
21:36:33 <jix> noo SVG is unesoteric
21:36:52 <WildHalcyon> You could make a language entirely out of ellipses, where each rational a/b mapped to an instruction
21:36:54 <jix> i'm going to invent a cryptic syntax for the vector graphics...
21:37:05 <pgimeno> I get esoteric results when I use it, it must be esoteric
21:37:31 <jix> WildHalcyon: hmm i think circle polygon and line are enough
21:37:31 <Gs30ng> jix: what if the polygons overlap each other
21:37:52 <pgimeno> a line is a 2-face poligon isn't it?
21:38:04 <WildHalcyon> Jix: use bezier curves for the lines - that way you can use lines OTHER than straight lines
21:38:22 <jix> WildHalcyon: you can connect multiple lines
21:38:31 <jix> but i need to have a direction for a line...
21:38:45 <Gs30ng> the space not should be 2 dimensional
21:38:53 <jix> Gs30ng: it should
21:38:56 <WildHalcyon> Well, however you implement it. Its your language after all ;-
21:40:08 <Gs30ng> jix: then how can you connect 2 polygons which locates like, unable to be connected by straight line
21:40:40 <Gs30ng> like there are some big polygons between them
21:41:35 <jix> Gs30ng: you can chain lines
21:42:00 <jix> and using circle control structures you can implement crossings
21:42:34 <WildHalcyon> It might be easiest to use a null polygon (0 sides) for a NOP, to implement between two connecting lines to go around corners in that case
21:42:37 * jix is _drawing_ a spec
21:43:17 <Gs30ng> jix: what about this.. are you gonna forbid to overlap 2 polygons?
21:43:33 <jix> Gs30ng: no but the behavior is undefined
21:43:41 <Gs30ng> or overlapped polygons could be another operation
21:43:58 <jix> Gs30ng: no overlapping circles give different control structures
21:44:08 <jix> but overlapping polygons give undefined behavior
21:45:05 <Gs30ng> a code with only overlapped figures
21:45:18 <Gs30ng> would seem truly esoteric
21:49:55 <Gs30ng> lines could seem a polygon
21:51:07 <Gs30ng> like, 3 lines connects 3 triangles, seem 4 triangle
21:59:55 <jix> Gs30ng: lines polygons and circles have different colors in source-view
22:00:21 <Gs30ng> well then i should make another lang
22:00:28 <Gs30ng> i want to have it monotone
22:02:57 <jix> i have a pretty cool file format
22:03:09 <jix> i have to complete it...
22:03:58 <Gs30ng> what's that source-view
22:04:23 <Gs30ng> you mean you're gonna make an IDE?
22:04:26 <jix> the source format is a text document
22:04:42 <jix> but i'm going to display the source code graphically
22:07:19 <WildHalcyon> I think I need to use either rtf, html, or a combined txt + bmp for my esolang.
22:07:37 <jix> WildHalcyon: make your own format
22:07:54 <WildHalcyon> I will eventually. Once I work on building the IDE
22:08:06 <Gs30ng> yes making a format it's easy
22:08:17 <Gs30ng> like you're to make a bitmap format then
22:09:08 <WildHalcyon> I'll probably include a conversion utility as well - to go between the proprietary format and the other formats
22:11:12 <Gs30ng> question: is there any conversion library for swf format?
22:12:02 <jix> my file format:
22:12:03 <jix> 'ST0P' => Header (thats a zero in stop)
22:12:03 <jix> 'O' x r y => Circle at x/y with radius r
22:12:03 <jix> 'P' points{3+} => Polygon with at least 3 points
22:12:03 <jix> 'p' y z => Polygon point
22:12:03 <jix> 'L' y2 x x2 y => line from x/y => x2/y2 (x/y swapped with x2/y2 is equivalent)
22:12:05 <jix> number are in base -5 using 'q' as 0, 'w' as 1, 'e' as 2, and '@' as 4. numbers end with a 'r' and use 't' as decimal point
22:12:08 <jix> 'X' comment => comment (you may use characters 's' 'd' and '.' for comments)
22:12:10 <jix> 'STRAT' => EOF (yes it's not a typo its STRAT instead of START)
22:12:31 <jix> the comment feature is pretty useless
22:14:39 <Gs30ng> not 'O' x y r but 'O' x r y ?
22:15:18 <jix> its 'L' y2 x x2 y ..
22:15:37 <GregorR> I love the comment feature XD
22:16:29 <jix> the field is from -1,-1 to 1,1
22:16:35 <jix> but numbers have no sign
22:16:38 <jix> they use base -5
22:17:19 <Gs30ng> so the order is deliberately weird, to make it esoteric, right?
22:18:54 <jix> let's try to make a circle at point -1x 1y with radius 0.5
22:19:03 <GregorR> Oh Lord, Christ and Savior Jesus, may your holy glory bring peace to the lives of those less fortunate, and those who write esoteric languages, amen.
22:19:36 <Gs30ng> In the beginning there was INTERCAL...
22:19:52 <WildHalcyon> Im not used to using negative bases (Ive heard of them, but.. never tried implementing them)
22:20:35 <WildHalcyon> he did? I thought after INTERCAZL, he had a stiff drink and took 2 1/2 months off and thats why we celebrate summer vacation?
22:21:12 <jix> grr negative bases are evil
22:21:23 <WildHalcyon> You could always use the golden ratio base
22:21:24 <WildHalcyon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_base
22:21:41 <jix> yeah but that's not as safe as base -5
22:22:07 <WildHalcyon> hm.. safe, yeah that's important if your language ever ends up on the shuttle like lament's
22:25:04 <Gs30ng> NASA guys are calling him by period to ask some questions about the spaceship air supplying system written in bf
22:26:40 <Gs30ng> a ']' is missing in the code so air supplying works for only few seconds
22:27:37 <Gs30ng> jix wrapped the whole code with [] and it appeared to work as well
22:27:44 <WildHalcyon> Hmmm, they should get that fixed. Any certified BF.NET techs here?
22:28:31 <Gs30ng> but now the system resets itself continuously
22:29:02 <GregorR> *checking door panels* *doors open* *doors close (well after the astronauts have been flung into space)* *reactivating oxygen*
22:29:41 <GregorR> And two loud POPs are (not) heard as the astronauts explode.
22:29:49 <GregorR> Then they're mad at jix, what a tragedy!
22:30:29 <Gs30ng> They can't fire him because they never hired him
22:31:29 <Gs30ng> as a professional esolang developer, jix was kidnapped by nasa guys and forced to design the system in bf
22:32:09 * Gs30ng pays one minute's silent tribute
22:35:23 <Gs30ng> actually in 90's, the system was written in Malbolge, designed by GregorR
22:35:44 <GregorR> (The system that enslaved jix that is :P)
22:37:53 <Gs30ng> GregorR wrote it in 3 minutes 27 seconds, and distributed it in open source, nasa took it
22:38:40 <Gs30ng> after several years nasa needed some new code for new modules, however no one but jix understood the code
22:38:54 <Gs30ng> that's why he've been kidnapped
22:39:06 <GregorR> Instead of me for some inexplicable reason :P
22:39:53 <Gs30ng> death is inexplicable, right
22:40:05 <Gs30ng> uh, aren't you dead GregorR?
22:40:23 -!- GregorR has changed nick to GregorR-OHNOAZOM.
22:40:34 -!- GregorR-OHNOAZOM has changed nick to ItsAZombie.
22:40:44 <ItsAZombie> Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins...
22:41:29 -!- ItsAZombie has changed nick to GregorR.
22:42:26 <WildHalcyon> I've got a few lobes, a medulla, and then there's my spinal cord.
22:45:08 <jix> they learned to not kidnap crazy people MUHUAHAHAHAHAHAH!
22:45:44 <jix> mounting Sauerbraten.dmg
22:46:01 <jix> sauerbraten has to be a cool game
22:46:14 <Gs30ng> what does dmg stands for
22:46:19 <jix> it's written by wouter
22:46:25 <jix> Disk iMaGe
22:46:39 <jix> every 2nd osx software comes as dmg
22:46:57 <jix> sauerbraten is from wouter (the one who wrote false)
22:47:17 <jix> http://sauerbraten.org/
22:47:21 <Gs30ng> one who wrote false wrote a game?
22:47:34 <jix> WildHalcyon: i know someone who knows wouter
22:48:13 <Gs30ng> i don't even want to contact anyone who knows who knows wouter
22:48:18 <jix> he's called Tim Schröder
22:48:19 <Gs30ng> i don't wanna be kidnapped
22:48:23 <WildHalcyon> I know someone who knows someone who knows wouter... err.. thats you, btw
22:48:49 <jix> WildHalcyon: i talk about real-life knowing
22:49:28 <Gs30ng> wouter doesn't sound like an actual person... like, consist with only source code
22:49:38 <jix> both wouter and tim worked at crytek
22:49:48 <jix> Gs30ng: it's his realname
22:49:49 <jix> Wouter van Oortmerssen
22:50:13 <Gs30ng> that lab researches how to cry?
22:50:20 <Gs30ng> what am i talking about
22:51:50 <Gs30ng> Wouter van Oortmerssen. sounds really typical guru name. like Guido van Rossum or something
22:52:53 <kipple> if by guru you mean dutch, then yeah ;)
22:53:38 <Gs30ng> Oh, is it dutch? not german or something?
22:53:50 <jix> but i'm german
22:54:05 <kipple> van = dutch, von = german
22:54:38 <jix> yes but von * in german isn't as common as van in dutch
22:55:26 <kipple> doesn't von in german usually indicate nobility or something (at least in the past)?
22:55:37 <Gs30ng> now i see a few dutch person in computer science
22:55:57 <Gs30ng> but haven't seen any Korean in this field
22:57:20 <WildHalcyon> Ive known a few korean cs majors back in school
22:57:48 <Gs30ng> maybe they're all kidnapped by nasa
22:58:35 <WildHalcyon> I was kidnapped by NASA, but they let me go because I was useless
22:58:49 <jix> who wasn't kidnapped by NASA
22:58:54 <Gs30ng> they only need some esoteric programmers
22:59:41 <GregorR> I wasn't kidnapped by NASA
23:00:02 <Gs30ng> because no one can kidnap a dead man
23:00:15 <Gs30ng> i feel really sorry about that
23:00:44 <kipple> GregorR: are you dead?
23:01:08 <Gs30ng> i'm not gonna challenge you. i
23:01:14 <GregorR> Technically, UNdead, in that I resurrected to feast on the entrails of the living, but I'm not alive in the common sense *shrugs*
23:01:18 <Gs30ng> i'm not gonna be malslaved
23:02:38 <GregorR> Anybody want to help with my MUD engine?
23:03:19 <kipple> an engine that runs on mud? sounds good :) when can I get it for my car?
23:03:30 <jix> GregorR: you're going to implement it in ??
23:03:48 <GregorR> C++ - sorry, it not not esoteric-related :P
23:03:56 <Gs30ng> kipple: spends ridiculously much mud
23:04:11 <jix> GregorR: do a -- please.. i don't know c++
23:04:32 <jix> or use something else i know
23:04:50 <jix> or.. apple-script
23:05:03 <GregorR> While ruby would be quite appropriate for a MUD, I'll stick to C++ thank-you-very-much :P
23:05:04 <jix> or 1802 assembler
23:05:17 <jix> or arm asm
23:05:24 <jix> or ppc asm
23:05:35 <jix> or any asm that is not crappy-x86-asm
23:05:44 <jix> x86 asm is ugly
23:06:00 <jix> Gs30ng: a bit
23:06:10 <jix> but i don't do x86 asm
23:06:37 <GregorR> All the cool kids (read: lazy) use CISC.
23:06:41 <jix> because it's like uh we need 32 bit add this and that.. oh we need this do a little work-around
23:06:54 <jix> GregorR: define RISC and CISC
23:07:24 <jix> i just looked at x86 asm it it was ugly...
23:07:29 <GregorR> CISC: x86, x86-64, ia64 RISC: virtually everything else ever
23:08:10 <jix> GregorR: and where is the difference at the asm level?
23:08:38 <jix> m86k asm is ok afaik and it's cisc
23:08:59 <jix> but x86asm is as old as m86k just with a lot of work arounds and additions to make it up to date...
23:09:30 <jix> arm assembler is pretty cool with the condition codes
23:09:45 <jix> but i don't know arm asm anymore.. stopped gba development...
23:11:18 <jix> i wan't to do asm programming BUT
23:11:32 <jix> i don't want to use ppc assembler because apple switches to x86 soon
23:11:40 <jix> i don't want to do x86 asm because its UGLY
23:12:45 <jix> i wan't to do arm asm but not for the gba.. and not for the ipod.. i need another arm machine
23:12:55 <jix> NO i want to design my own cpu with my own asm!
23:13:44 <jix> anyone around?
23:14:03 <jix> GregorR: what's your mud about?
23:14:32 <jix> or what's special about your mud
23:14:34 <jix> GregorR: ?
23:17:13 <WildHalcyon> call me ignorant, but whats mud? aside from.. y'know.. wet dirt
23:17:46 <jix> multi user dungeon
23:17:49 -!- kipple has left (?).
23:19:30 <jix> arn't muds text-based?
23:19:33 <jix> like text adventures?
23:19:41 <jix> GregorR: !?!
23:20:00 <WildHalcyon> Are they? I thought you meant something like multi-player Dungeon Siege.
23:20:37 <jix> i thought i meant something like the muds where you use telnet to connect to mud.*...
23:21:58 <jix> GRÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄGORR!
23:23:10 <jix> he doesn't answer :(
23:23:39 <WildHalcyon> Now I'll have to develop my own balanced-nonary befunge varient
23:24:52 <Gs30ng> didn't GregorR got back to work?
23:25:14 <jix> is that a reason to not answer?!
23:35:12 <GregorR> Yes, it is, because I VNC into home.
23:35:34 <GregorR> So when I go back to work, I close my VNC window.
23:35:48 <jix> then don't go back to work
23:35:59 <GregorR> Who does work anyway *shrugs*
23:36:41 <GregorR> But anyway, I'm writing it because of an itch and a few pet peeves.
23:36:44 <WildHalcyon> What type of work does a flesh devouring zombie DO exactly?
23:37:04 <GregorR> For instance, most MUDs don't have a sky except when convenient, making "fly" spells worthless.
23:37:21 <WildHalcyon> and could you clarify the MUD implementation? Is it text-based or graphical?
23:37:40 <jix> WildHalcyon: pwnd hrhr^^
23:38:28 <GregorR> Also, anyone who uses the term "pwnd" in my MUD engine will find their character mysteriously dead.
23:39:48 <jix> i want to help you with the mud engine
23:40:16 <GregorR> What I mostly need are design suggestions - pet peeves about current MUD designes.
23:40:48 <GregorR> (The engines that is, not the games)
23:41:50 <jix> i don't know much about muds
23:42:02 <jix> i don't know anything about muds
23:42:22 <WildHalcyon> I haven't played a MUD in years. And I like the idea of punishing players who use stale l33t speak
23:43:13 <jix> GregorR: i know it a bit
23:43:25 <jix> i know C and i know OOP
23:43:33 <jix> and i know a very little bit C++
23:43:57 <WildHalcyon> "PlayerFoo: Hah! You got pwned!" => "The sky god Y'jmal's wrath has been angered." => "You awaken in your own filth"
23:44:02 <GregorR> Well, I don't heavily use any of the incredibly C++-specific features, just classes and inheritance and maps.
23:44:27 <jix> i don't know the c++ syntax for OOP things
23:44:40 <jix> what are maps?
23:45:11 <jix> GregorR: maps? help me i don't know them!
23:45:56 <jix> a mud should have weather... weather is important
23:46:43 <Gs30ng> NASA seriously cares the weather
23:49:34 <jix> i don't know c++ maps
23:50:46 <jix> ah stl maps?
23:51:17 <jix> wait no that's something different i thought of
23:52:45 <jix> it's like a ruby hash?
23:53:06 <jix> {:a=>:b,:c=>:d,:d=>:d,:e=>nil}?
23:53:25 <WildHalcyon> how I loathe thee with every ounce of being
23:53:54 <GregorR> Sorry, had to hit the boss alarm.
23:54:10 <jix> a mud client should have a boss alarm key
23:54:17 <GregorR> map<string, int> = hash of strings->int
23:54:30 <GregorR> jix: That brings up a fake bash shell with curious output on it? :)
23:54:42 <jix> if a user presses it the client plays a loud sound "I'M PLAYING AT WORK!!! FIRE ME!"
23:55:10 <jix> no fake bash is ok
23:55:19 <jix> that could be server side too
23:55:41 <GregorR> Part of the challenge is to make sure that telnet is a valid client :P
23:56:40 <jix> WildHalcyon: lang?
23:57:11 <jix> how do you do graphics?
23:57:25 <WildHalcyon> I haven't uploaded a spec or anything, because I don't have the instruction syntax done
23:58:55 <jix> ah roquelike.. they are infinite cool
23:59:19 <jix> and i died the infinite stupidest way at nethack
23:59:46 <WildHalcyon> I die a lot playing Crawl. Usually on the first or 2nd level. I've had two characters make it to the 5th.
00:00:15 <GregorR> I've reached the 40s in nethack with only one key.
00:00:18 <jix> i died as a knight in the first few moves because i fall from my horse 2 times
00:03:16 <jix> i want to write a roquelike in asm
00:03:27 <jix> preferable some old cpu
00:04:37 <jix> 1802 is infinite cool
00:04:43 <jix> it's from like 1976
00:05:23 <jix> but i don't know a computer based on it that is roquelike-able
00:06:18 <jix> the voyager uses 1802 cpus
00:06:28 <jix> (the space thing...)
00:06:51 <jix> the NASA asked me for a cpu and i told them a random number...
00:08:32 * jix searches a computer at http://emulation.net/
00:10:37 <jix> maybe i should use a 6502 cpu based computer
00:11:36 <jix> maybe i shouldn't start writing that because i won't finish that anyway
00:12:07 <WildHalcyon> Might be a good idea. I haven't really started any details until I finish the spec...
00:12:20 <WildHalcyon> I've got one more issue to deal with, then I think I can move on to the instruction reference and be done
00:15:00 <WildHalcyon> I'll spend a while writing a manual and handy printable pdf reference chart, then work on the interpreter
00:15:28 <WildHalcyon> And the dev tools I mentioned earlier - file format spec (easy) and conversion utility (relatively easy)
00:16:50 <jix> i'm going to write a mandelbrot renderer in 1802 asm and then mv self bed
00:17:43 <jix> but i don't get how to controll PIXIE(b/w) graphic chip...
00:18:12 <jix> it uses the 1802 data channel to direct access the memory and slow down the cpu by stealing a few cycles
00:20:58 <jix> the tinyelf emulator for osx is pretty cool for development
00:21:19 <jix> it has a mem viewer internal state viewer execution tracer breakpoints stepping...
00:22:01 <jix> and the 1802 has a SEX instruction
00:23:18 <jix> and you often need to set x
00:23:28 <jix> so 1802 programs contain a lot of SEX
00:23:45 <WildHalcyon> hmm... never seen a chip that needs to be rated M
00:23:50 <jix> and even the voyager space thing has a lot of SEX
00:24:29 <jix> WildHalcyon: buy one
00:24:33 <Gs30ng> what about designing a SEX Programming Language
00:25:02 <Gs30ng> EOF -> orgasm or something
00:26:01 <jix> my machine is 5 or 6 years old...
00:26:25 * WildHalcyon votes not to kick Gs30ng, provided he mentions John Holmes in the contributers section of his spec for the lang
00:26:51 <jix> i did some upgrades on it and it's still pretty fast
00:27:18 <WildHalcyon> First order of business is to get a new linux box
00:28:00 <jix> John Holmes, Porn Star
00:28:21 <jix> google is your friend
00:28:23 <WildHalcyon> He's fairly famous, and slightly esoteric, but not really.
00:39:46 <GregorR> BF->Sex translation (for encoding possibly illegal algorithms when your only means of production is porn): + = standard missionary vaginal sex, - = standard doggy-style anal sex, < = woman-on-man oral, > = man-on-woman oral, [ = 69ing, ] = anything kinky ;), ',' = female orgasm, '.' = male orgasm
00:40:40 <GregorR> Now, for DeCSS encoded as sex :P
00:41:43 <WildHalcyon> Does the program cause an error if . comes before , ?
00:42:10 <WildHalcyon> That sounded cleaner in my head. I apologize
00:42:53 <GregorR> It's purely a method of encoding BF, all quirks of BF apply.
00:43:10 <Gs30ng> you don't have to translate BF... BF is already sex. like, brainF*CK.
00:47:36 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("to reboot in windows").
00:59:26 -!- Gs30ng has joined.
00:59:50 <jix> i got the pixie to display a fixed mem position without interrupts..
00:59:59 <jix> i'd like to do it with interrupts
01:03:17 <jix> and the up down resolution of the PIXIE is higher than i thought
01:03:27 <jix> most programs downsample it using tricky timing
01:03:48 <jix> and my programm is destruktive.. it destroys itself
01:03:53 <jix> by zeroing the first byte
01:04:01 <jix> and 0 == idle == halt cpu until interrupt
01:05:07 <jix> the updown resolutine is like 3x leftright resolution
01:08:13 <jix> i didn't count the pixels
01:08:16 * jix is searching a spec
01:08:46 <jix> 64 pixels in a line
01:09:41 <WildHalcyon> Thats fairly small. You'd be hard pressed to write a reliable roguelike on that
01:10:06 <jix> the odd thing is that it is for tv output but tvs have more ppl than lines
01:10:13 <jix> ppl is a tla for pixels per line
01:11:18 <jix> tla is a tla for three letter acronym
01:11:24 <WildHalcyon> Well... it makes some sense, if they're trying to get square output
01:11:39 <jix> square output?
01:12:23 <jix> the pixels are like dashes
01:12:29 <jix> not like dots/squares
01:12:37 <jix> the other way around it'd make sense
01:13:14 <WildHalcyon> I suppose because conventional pixels aren't square, they're rectangular as well
01:14:14 <jix> but conventional pixels are supposed to be 1:1 like not 1:3.. 1:1.n is ok but 1:3...
01:15:55 <WildHalcyon> Well, I can confidently claim that I have no idea why they did that
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01:57:53 <lament> conventional pixels aren't 1:1, are they?
02:54:06 <GregorR> I didn't think PAL was square ....
02:54:18 <GregorR> Not that I have any reason to think either way :P
02:55:16 <GregorR> Furthermore, televisions don't have horizontal pixels per se.
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02:56:20 <GregorR> They have a fixed number of scanlines (480 in NTSC if I remember right) with non-discrete content.
02:57:13 <WildHalcyon> Im taking a break from my REAL esolang to work on one that is more or less just a shell of an idea.
02:57:57 <calamari> it's liek the hotel california.. you can enter but never leave ...
02:58:36 <WildHalcyon> hmmm... I suppose, but thats only IF you believe the eagles. I personally think they were a bunch of lying bastards.
02:58:54 <calamari> which is weird because it's so sunny here in AZ
02:59:32 <calamari> WildHalcyon: sorry.. bf joke.. hehehe,
02:59:44 <WildHalcyon> So, I discovered the beauty of balanced ternary arithmetic
03:00:50 <calamari> ooh, you called it ternary istead of trinary.. coolness.. what's up?
03:01:30 <WildHalcyon> Now Im trying to implement an esolang with {-,0,+} with the + representing angels, and - represent demons, and the language motto is: "The ultimate battle between good & evil is now turing complete!"
03:02:20 <WildHalcyon> I thought about implementing a 2D terrain map, with little roads that the armies of men could take to travel between cities (operators)... but Im not quite sure where to go from there, or even if I should go anywhere with this
03:02:42 <WildHalcyon> I suppose, 0 would be neutral, like.. um... purgatory
03:03:23 <WildHalcyon> Essentially, each variable is an army, with the individual trits representing good/neutral/evil souls within the army
03:03:30 <calamari> especially once I get my 3-d graphics card working again
03:05:57 * calamari has been messing around with particles and gravity.. still working out how to do the math
03:06:12 <calamari> I have an idea, just can't seem to make the final connections
03:06:55 <WildHalcyon> Thats where Im at with my normal esolang, which is much less esoteric, much more practical
03:06:58 <calamari> F=G*m1*m2/r^2, resulting force = sum of force vectors acting on the object
03:08:11 <calamari> oh wait.. tan angle = opp / adj, iirc
03:09:19 <calamari> been too long since physics class
03:09:54 <WildHalcyon> I vaguely remember physics, with my hippie professor. Man, that was crazy
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04:51:19 <WildHalcyon> Ive been reading some slashdot on ternary computing. Man... they get defensive!
04:51:51 * calamari_ has particles wiggling around (no physics yet, random walk) but some kind of bug makes it reset or something every few seconds
04:52:16 <WildHalcyon> So... what exactly does it... ermm.. what is it supposed to do?
04:52:21 <calamari_> wonder if the garbage collector is doing it
04:52:42 <calamari_> I wanted to apply gravity forces to the particles and see what happened
04:53:39 <WildHalcyon> So, you have several particles, and they're all under gravitational forces from one another, correct?
04:54:30 <calamari_> so initially they have 0 velocity and 0 accel
04:55:23 <calamari_> but as the forces are applies they should start moving around :)
04:56:06 <calamari_> I was thinking that if two particles collided I would make it an inelastic collision
04:56:25 <calamari_> then the new mass would be the sum of the two old masses
04:56:35 <WildHalcyon> It should, unless you're providing some kind of repelling force
04:57:14 <calamari_> anyhow.. it's weird that it is doing this resetting thing
04:58:40 <calamari_> the dots will be wiggling around, then all the sudden they will all be in totally different places and there will be less of them
04:59:47 <calamari_> hmm interesting.. doesn't seem to happen if I Thread.sleep() with a high enough value
05:01:04 <WildHalcyon> Anyhow, Ive got class tomorrow, so Im outta here for the night ;-)
05:01:05 <calamari_> not really using counters.. using an iterator to go through the particles
05:01:24 -!- WildHalcyon has left (?).
05:03:12 <calamari_> hahahaha.. I know what's wrong.. dumb dumb dumb
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07:48:31 <WildHalcyon> Anyone still up? I ended up doing the non-sleep thing
07:52:11 <WildHalcyon> I have a problem with insomnia occassionally. I tend to think too much, or something.
07:53:07 <calamari_> I have a similar problem if I go to bed just after programming something
07:53:41 <calamari_> I mgiht sleep, but badly.. usually filled with "nightmares" such as trying to figure something complicated out but never being able to
07:54:06 <WildHalcyon> lol, programming nightmares? That sounds like... hmm.. programming
07:54:14 <calamari_> (which never seems to be useful once I wake up)
07:55:00 <calamari_> reading slashdot or sites like imdb usually seems to cure it
07:57:23 <calamari_> found a neat linux program called planets.. better than the program I was hoping to write
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08:02:06 <WildHalcyon> I finished the prelim spec on my language: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL.txt
08:05:02 <WildHalcyon> But I should probably show up in the hopes of getting a karmic reward or something
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14:29:23 <jix> moin int-e
15:07:50 <jix> GregorR: ping
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16:19:25 <Kmkr> can anyone summary the past days logs in few words?
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16:46:28 <Kmkr> hmmm this CRAWL seems interesting
16:48:48 * GregorR stumbles across the desert, bleeding from the ping wound through his shoulder.
16:49:11 * GregorR collapses, no longer able to stay conscious because of blood lost from his ping wound.
16:50:43 <GregorR> Hmm, jix has a vowel in the name but none in the message, Kmkr has a vowel in the message but none in the name :P
16:52:25 <Kmkr> NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
16:52:37 <Kmkr> it can't be coincidence
16:55:21 <Kmkr> grh.. no time to do anything.. back to reading..
16:55:42 * Kmkr 's head explodes.
16:55:45 -!- Kmkr has quit ("I've seen this dj vu before..").
16:56:03 <jix> his head exploded.
17:10:34 <GregorR> These things happen *shrugs*
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18:14:20 <Keymaker> back again.. enough of reading :p
18:18:58 <int-e> well, your head exploded
18:19:27 <int-e> that's a good point to stop reading ;)
18:33:32 <Gs30ng> that's why we need multiple head
18:33:36 <Gs30ng> democracy or something
18:50:24 <Keymaker> [insert several angry animal voices here]
19:40:51 <Keymaker> [insert several happy animal voices here]
19:46:52 <GregorR> [insert several in-heat animal voices here]
20:02:12 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
20:34:57 <Gs30ng> HURRAH FOR ALL THE ESOLANG!!!!!!
20:39:01 -!- cpressey has quit ("Lost terminal").
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21:52:17 * GregorR hands cpressey a case of terminals, plus a few pseudoterminals and xterms.
21:53:09 <GregorR> He seems to be losing them awfully fast, figured he could use them more than I could *shrugs*
21:53:12 * int-e hopes GregorR left a hole for pizza delivery
21:56:52 <Gs30ng> i think that terminal means some kind of examination and cpressey lost it, like, failed or something
21:57:28 <Gs30ng> GregorR would rather give him some advice to be a copycat rather than more terminals
22:06:20 <cpressey> it could have been worse... my connection could be been refused by peer
22:06:36 <cpressey> or, perish the thought, there might have been no route to host
22:08:37 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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22:10:27 <lament> or, in the worst case imaginable, your client could have quit
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22:15:56 <jix> moin calamari
22:17:05 <Gs30ng> i always feel a bit weird when i see that moin of jix... in my hometown language moin means 'grouped' or 'congregated'
22:17:15 <Gs30ng> so it goes 'grouped calamari'
22:17:33 <lament> in my language moin means "I hope you die"
22:18:56 <jix> lament: lol
22:22:20 <jix> GregorR: how's your mud going?
22:24:59 <Gs30ng> he's designing an engine
22:25:29 <Gs30ng> unfortunately not in esolang
22:25:35 <jix> calamari: yes but not for the contests afaik
22:26:04 <pgimeno> again, what kind of terminal did you lose, cpressey? a token? a literal? did you ever lose a non-terminal?
22:26:12 <jix> calamari: i need some weird computer for writing a textadv for it
22:26:23 <jix> and when i say weird i mean REALLY weird
22:26:41 <jix> maybe cosmac elf works
22:26:48 <jix> but the screen is that lowres
22:26:58 <jix> 64x128 (yes 68x 128y)
22:27:11 <jix> and on a real tv screen it doesn't show the full area afaik
22:27:26 <calamari> ;) http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/images/misc/bfcomp.jpg
22:27:28 <jix> and i don't know what part of the area is displayed
22:28:09 <Gs30ng> where's the space to insert the code
22:28:09 <pgimeno> oh that's not lowres; ZX-81 had 64x44
22:28:26 <jix> pgimeno: pixel in bw?
22:28:28 <pgimeno> has, even (I have one handy)
22:28:47 <jix> ok tiny elf has to work
22:28:55 <calamari> I can't remember what channel f had
22:28:55 <pgimeno> it's actually a semi-graphic character (the screen is 32x22)
22:29:14 <jix> the good thing 1802 asm is really short
22:29:47 <jix> all instructions are 1 byte (but may take a 1byte value/adress or 2 byte adress)
22:29:54 <jix> calamari: wait
22:30:10 <jix> that's really stupid that its 64x128 instead of 128x64
22:30:39 <calamari> the thing about the channel f is that the games looked and sounded pretty bad.. but they were fun!
22:30:45 <pgimeno> then it's pretty much the same as Z80, except the Z80 has some prefixes to extend the instruction set
22:31:08 <jix> pgimeno: but z80 has not 16 16bit registers
22:31:28 <jix> oh and whenever you play one of GregorR's muds never type pwnd.. that kill's you
22:31:28 <pgimeno> indeed, it has just 9 IIRC
22:31:43 <jix> and the z80 can't use ANY of them as IP
22:32:26 <pgimeno> right (oh well, I didn't count PC, IR, AF or AF')
22:32:33 <jix> and the z80 isn't in the voyager (satellite )
22:32:43 <jix> i didn't count the 8bit accumulator
22:32:47 <pgimeno> but it's in the good ol' Speccy :P
22:32:50 <jix> and the 4bit X and P register
22:32:58 <jix> and the 8 bit T register
22:32:58 <calamari> maybe your own computer out of transistors
22:33:07 <jix> calamari: thought about that
22:33:21 <jix> but i'd prefer a fpga it's easier..
22:33:27 <jix> pgimeno: they are register pointers
22:33:28 <pgimeno> that DOES make it superior
22:33:37 <jix> they point to one of the 16 16bit registers
22:33:43 <jix> P points to the IP
22:34:02 <jix> and X points to the register used for memory addressing for many instructions
22:34:16 <jix> and you can set X using the SEt X instruction .. short: SEX
22:34:32 <pgimeno> yeah, I've read it in the backlog :)
22:34:37 <calamari> I once programmed an asm that had the SEX instr
22:34:55 <calamari> it was pretty nice.. had 16 registers r0 to r15
22:35:07 <jix> calamari: maybe it was 1802
22:35:36 <jix> 1802 is a cpu from the 70s
22:35:53 <calamari> this was the 90's, maybe a decendant of the 1802
22:36:07 <jix> there are two decendants
22:36:19 <jix> and they were 70s too i think
22:36:33 <jix> they weren't very popular..
22:36:39 <jix> but they are COOL
22:36:39 <calamari> the only reason to use a chip that old is if it was cheap
22:36:54 <jix> it was cheap to that time too
22:37:11 <jix> the cosmac elf was a build it yourself computer for only 100$
22:37:29 <calamari> or you can build a cpu from other logic chips
22:37:29 <jix> altair cost like 1000$ afaik
22:38:15 <jix> many phone line powered devices used? the 1802
22:38:36 <jix> because it has no minimum frequency and could work slow but without consuming much power
22:38:52 <jix> and they were manufactured silicon on sapphire too
22:39:06 <jix> (thats why they used it in satellites)
22:39:14 <calamari> that'd be perfect for the whole programmable watch thing
22:39:33 <jix> maybe they are too slow
22:39:51 <jix> and with today technologies it would be possible to design a low power cpu that is much faster than the 1802
22:40:00 <jix> calamari: you have to slow it down to safe power
22:40:12 <jix> calamari: don't think so
22:40:54 <jix> they need more gates for simulating a gates => they need more power
22:41:07 <jix> and they are bigger than normal ICs
22:41:15 <jix> and i know how they work
22:41:21 <jix> they use LUTs for EVERYTHING
22:41:37 <jix> that's why it's inefficient to design a fpga logic gate by gate
22:41:48 <jix> verylog => 4bit LUTs is more efficient
22:43:05 * jix is writing a 1802 assembler because the one he has SUCKS
22:43:28 <pgimeno> isn't there a table-driven assembler for Linux?
22:43:36 <calamari> hmm just reading about the 1802.. couldn't have been my old cpu, as I remember being able to call subroutines
22:43:56 <calamari> pgimeno: there's tasm for linux too
22:43:58 <jix> calamari: you can call subroutines just branch to them using another IP
22:44:07 <jix> and return by using the old IP
22:44:21 <calamari> yeah, I have the registered version of tasm and the guy is still supporting it
22:44:50 <pgimeno> ah, no wonder it's not in Debian
22:46:07 <jix> i use cc65 for 6502 comes with an asm
22:46:12 <jix> i don't use it
22:46:14 <jix> but i have it installed
22:46:32 <pgimeno> jix: you said x86 asm was ugly?
22:46:39 <jix> pgimeno: imo it is
22:46:52 <pgimeno> that's because you haven't tried AT&T's assembler
22:46:56 <jix> i just hate ju?mp
22:47:08 <jix> i want branch not jump
22:48:08 <pgimeno> it's kind of weird... an inconditional jump is not a branching in the flow graph
22:48:11 <calamari> actually, that instruction doesn't exist on the 6502's in the old atari's
22:48:30 <jix> calamari: branch-relative-absolute? that makes no sense
22:48:48 <jix> bla makes sense thats branch-link-absolute
22:48:50 <calamari> it was a 1-byte relative branch
22:48:54 <jix> valid ppc instruction
22:49:09 <pgimeno> I want an assembly language where the instruction that changes PC is called GOTO :P
22:49:18 <jix> pgimeno: uh
22:49:19 <calamari> so instead of using 3 bytes for a jump, you could do it in 2 if it was short range
22:49:35 <jix> i just like to write b because it's shorter than jump
22:49:55 <jix> int-e: b is still shorter
22:50:01 <jix> or on the 1802 br
22:50:15 <jix> calamari: br is 1 byte adressing
22:50:18 <int-e> I know. And it does not matter. je is shorter than beq ;-)
22:50:34 <jix> int-e: k...
22:50:41 <jix> i just don't like jump
22:50:47 <pgimeno> the only problem of jmp is that j and m are both typed with the same finger
22:51:00 <int-e> jz, je, same thing.
22:51:05 <jix> pgimeno: no jmp is typed using 3 finger
22:51:13 <jix> I type it with 3 fingers
22:51:47 <jix> i dont use a this finger that key.. i just use a finger that is free and near to that key
22:51:50 <calamari> probably why I'm so slow.. hunt & peck with years of experience
22:52:04 <int-e> I know exactly what you're talking about.
22:52:14 <calamari> it was freaky when I realized I could do it without looking
22:52:17 <jix> i never "learned" how to type i just did it
22:52:36 <jix> calamari: i started typing on keyboards in the kindergarden
22:52:44 <pgimeno> btw, in Z80 they're jr (relative), jp (absolute)
22:53:34 <pgimeno> the Z80 has no SEX but has STI which is an ultra-high level instruction (that's what is left when you take the 'E' out of 'SETI')
22:53:44 <pgimeno> usually it finds none so it just sets the interrupt flag and goes on, disappointed
22:54:22 <jix> and it's not SeT Interrupt?
22:54:45 <pgimeno> oh, maybe that's it and I've been wrong all this time!
22:55:00 <jix> i don't think it's SeT Interrupt
22:55:27 <jix> that's unlikely.. i think it's the SETI thing
22:55:47 <pgimeno> anyway it's strange because it doesn't even find me :P
22:55:58 <jix> mnemonic quiz is fun
22:56:10 <jix> a easy one: ldi
22:56:23 <jix> int-e: no idea
22:56:28 <int-e> jix, z80, load index register.
22:56:44 <int-e> wbinv is 'write back and invalidate cache'
22:56:54 <jix> on 1802 LoaD Immediate
22:56:56 <calamari> jix: know of any other cpu's that can accept any clock speed?
22:57:06 <jix> calamari: they have an upper limit
22:57:11 <jix> but not a lower
22:57:19 <jix> and afaik arm is able to run at a few khz
22:57:26 <pgimeno> oh, didn't remember about wbinvd
22:57:34 <jix> the iPod mini 2nd generation uses it to safe power
22:57:45 <jix> always uses minimal clock speed needed
22:57:51 <int-e> it was the most obscure instruction in the x86 reference guide that came with borland pascal
22:58:01 <pgimeno> 32KHz crystals are (were? I'm not very up-to-date with this) usually found in wrist watches
22:58:36 <jix> implementing brainfuck using transistors could be fun
22:58:36 <int-e> fclex was neat, too
22:59:14 <pgimeno> it ligths a bulb somewhere but everything is diffuse
22:59:29 <int-e> oh, and some really useful instructions, one of them being btr
22:59:44 <pgimeno> ah, that one I remember :) bit test right
22:59:44 <int-e> fclex: fpu clear exception. btr: bit test and reset.
23:00:04 <calamari> jix: I'd probably implement a bf variant where [ and ] are combined into a conditional jump instruction
23:00:29 <GregorR> I'm thinking of writing a MISC VM.
23:00:52 <calamari> wonder how many transistors misc would take
23:01:12 <int-e> the obscure thing about btr (and bt and bts) is that when used with a memory operand, btr [bx+di], bp , you can actually address 8kb of memory, bitwise.
23:01:15 <GregorR> Time for a gcc/binutils backend, then there'll be pressure to make one ;)
23:01:20 <pgimeno> I can still type Z80 code in decimal in DATA lines but I can't remember the damn 486+ instruction set
23:01:43 <pgimeno> I confused it with BSR (bit scan reverse)
23:01:45 <int-e> (and 0.5 GB in 32 bit mode)
23:02:52 <pgimeno> (I never used these instructions; I wanted to keep 386 compatibility back then when I wrote assembly code)
23:03:15 <calamari> I never learned em.. all my x86 programs are 8088 compatible :)
23:03:38 <int-e> uhm, bt* and bs* do work on i386
23:04:58 <pgimeno> then it's probably because I never managed to fully learn the new instructions when I switched to the 386
23:05:24 <pgimeno> the timings were weird IIRC
23:05:35 <int-e> afaik only bswap and cmpxchg were new on the 486, and the builtin FPU.
23:06:40 <int-e> aging is permanent
23:07:24 <int-e> depending on your definition you might stop aging when you die.
23:08:40 <int-e> ok, you're old. are you happy now?
23:08:44 * int-e grins mischieviously.
23:14:06 * jix is 14 years old
23:14:53 <pgimeno> how old are you, calamari?
23:16:10 <jix> pgimeno: you are 2,71 times as old as i am
23:18:30 <calamari> was afk looking at cpu's on digikey hehe
23:19:20 <lament> pgimeno is e times older than jix?
23:19:27 <lament> pgimeno: you're fricking OLD
23:21:02 <calamari> 'll feel older pretty quickly in Feb
23:25:29 <pgimeno> he will hopefully not be UNBABTIZED or SON OF UNBABTIZED
23:26:08 <calamari> but unbabtized until at least 8 :)
23:26:48 <pgimeno> er, that joke didn't mean to have any religious implications :)
23:27:13 <Gs30ng> is it sure that he is 'he'?
23:27:53 <Gs30ng> then he/she could be kinda DAUGHTER OF UNBABTIZED
23:28:02 <calamari> could have found out last time, but we went to a new clinic and they had horrible resolution on their scanner
23:29:28 <Gs30ng> well it's Aug 2005 yet... due is Feb 2006, right?
23:35:28 <calamari> hmm, looks like 386/486 have a static design too
23:37:39 <GregorR> Well ... that MISC VM was way too easy.
23:37:52 <GregorR> (Although I had to contend with little-endianness)
23:38:23 <jix> GregorR: MISC VM?
23:38:44 <jix> little-endiann is stupid
23:39:05 <jix> what is misc vm?
23:39:33 <GregorR> See http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/MISC (unless I just mislinked you)
23:41:00 <jix> any hw implementations with memmory mapped IO?
23:41:43 <jix> shouldn't be that hard
23:43:20 <GregorR> AFAIK there aren't any hardware implementations :P
23:43:47 <jix> my brother has an fpga i could use but i have no computer to program the fpga
23:49:00 <pgimeno> hm, IMO the MISC turing completeness proof is flawed in the sense that MISC-16 uses bounded memory
23:50:57 <int-e> well, assume unlimited memory cells then
23:51:52 <pgimeno> in that case it's not MISC-16 and the proof is not valid
23:52:18 <pgimeno> plus, what's two's complement of 1 in unlimited arithmetic?
23:53:30 <int-e> MISC works in a finite field
23:53:45 <int-e> err. ring or group
23:56:26 <pgimeno> that kind of reminds me of a Daily WTF entry which read like: var += -1;
23:56:44 <GregorR> MISC is signed, it's clearly not turing complete but it's turing-complete-within-the-construct-of-reality.
23:57:15 <calamari> I think there was a category for that
23:57:20 <GregorR> (IE, you could make a one-instruction instruction set that was turing complete, but you couldn't make a real computer to use it, so who cares)
23:57:54 <pgimeno> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine
00:00:52 <GregorR> Also, every real computer in the universe :P
00:01:34 <pgimeno> there's probably an equivalence between every MISC program and a SMETANA program... that's scary
00:04:49 <GregorR> I wonder what the most RISCy non-esoteric ASM is.
00:06:44 <pgimeno> there's a (half-esoteric) assembly language which has only MOV
00:06:52 <int-e> The Transputer instruction set was comprised of 8-bit instructions broken into two nibbles. The "upper" nibble contained the instruction code, making it truly RISC with only 16 basic instructions.
00:07:02 <int-e> Transputers are a good guess, I think.
00:07:04 <pgimeno> just some registers do special operations when MOVed
00:07:34 <pgimeno> it's the one used in the Wireworld computer
00:08:01 <GregorR> I think that would qualify as fully esoteric, pgimeno :)
00:09:19 <int-e> well, it has a ciscish instruction for less common operations, so I'm not sure if it really qualifies. but it's neat.
00:09:28 <int-e> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer#Instruction_set
00:12:36 <calamari> low power, static design, and instruction set that I already know :)
00:24:36 <jix> 80c88 is x86?
00:24:49 <jix> 8088 was 8086 with 8bit data bus?
00:25:02 <jix> and 80c88 is a variant of 8088?
00:29:02 <jix> <calamari> Intersil 80c88 looks good << for what?
00:29:24 <calamari> just messing around... :) I've always wanted to build a portable system
00:29:48 <calamari> the problem with most of them is that you have to constantly be charging them
00:30:38 <jix> i'd suggest using the arm7tdmi (gba and ipod uses them both have ok charging time)
00:31:08 <jix> it is powerful and easy to program
00:31:36 <jix> it has 2 instruction sets.. one for speed and another one for slow ram and small code size
00:31:45 <jix> gcc supports it
00:32:15 <jix> int-e: yes
00:32:35 <jix> gcc supports arm and thumb instruction sets
00:32:56 <jix> i'm working on my 1802 assembler
00:33:10 <jix> it uses ruby files for assembly code
00:33:28 <jix> and some dirty hacks that allow writing like normal assembler code
00:34:46 <calamari> eew.. why would I want to use gcc to write programs for an embedded device? :)
00:35:09 <jix> calamari: because sometimes assembler isn't the best choice
00:35:21 <jix> i used gcc for gba programming too
00:36:16 <jix> and you can use gas for assembling
00:36:36 <jix> calamari: hah?!
00:37:05 <jix> don't know nasm
00:37:31 <calamari> it uses intel syntax instead of that horrible at&t
00:38:33 <jix> the arm asm syntax from gas was ok
00:39:00 <jix> never used gas for anything else than ppc and arm
00:40:12 <pgimeno> at&t is delightfully terrible
00:40:12 <jix> imo x86 asm is always ugly
00:40:29 <pgimeno> you'd probably like it despite of not liking x86, jix
00:41:16 <pgimeno> it's like: SUB A,B means: SUBtract A from B
00:41:33 <jix> yes but the register names are..
00:41:44 <pgimeno> CMP A,B tests B in relation to A
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00:41:54 <jix> pgimeno: that's all ok
00:42:01 <jix> but i don't like the register names
00:42:16 <pgimeno> the registers are the same names, just preceded with %
00:42:29 <int-e> this is getting repetitive.
00:42:35 <jix> no they are like %aex... not like r0..r31
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00:42:56 <jix> pgimeno: i don't know x86 that much
00:43:01 <jix> i only saw some asm code
00:43:31 <int-e> pgimeno, I think you're mixing up gas and gdb
00:44:04 <jix> gdb is cool
00:44:24 <jix> it has objc support
00:44:31 <int-e> anyway jix would hate nasm, because the operands are swapped there. (well, not for x86 assembly coders but for everyone else)
00:44:47 <jix> int-e: swapped?!
00:45:07 <int-e> mov eax, 42 sets eax to 42. mov eax, ebx sets eax to the value of ebx.
00:46:17 <pgimeno> the worst part of free software is that everyone makes things different to each other and I end up mixing things
00:46:30 <pgimeno> I said I'd stop ranting, sorry
00:47:03 <int-e> pgimeno, intel did it differently from everyone else. the gas coders made a backend for gcc that made the compiler work as similar to the other backends as possible
00:47:36 <pgimeno> anyway the cmp bit still puzzles me
00:48:03 <int-e> that's why the $ and % signs are there, that's why the instructions got suffixes for the various sizes, that's why memory addresses are specified in such a strange way, and that's why the operands are swapped
00:48:09 <pgimeno> cmp eax,ebx / jle addr -> jumps if ebx <= eax
00:48:16 <int-e> cmp is sub but doesn't modify any operand
00:48:48 <int-e> and no it doesn't.
00:49:13 <jix> int-e: add r1,r2,r3 sets r1 to r2+r3 on ppc afaik
00:49:36 <jix> i just modified some ppc code did not much coding
00:50:04 <jix> there is no good ppc asm introduction
00:50:07 <int-e> pgimeno maybe you stumbled on a signed/unsigned issue? jle is for signed numbers
00:50:21 <int-e> jbe is for unsigned numbers
00:51:47 <int-e> cmp eax, ebx; jle jumps if eax<=ebx.
00:52:53 <pgimeno> so only sub eax,ebx; jle addr jumps if ebx <= eax
00:53:11 <int-e> that also jumps if eax<=ebx
00:53:26 <int-e> we *are* talking about intel (nasm) syntax, aren't we?
00:53:29 <pgimeno> er sorry, notation... cmp %eax, %ebx
00:53:53 <pgimeno> I personally like NASM syntax
00:53:53 <int-e> ok, then everything is reversed and some mnemonics are confusing
00:54:30 <int-e> but it's all clear once you realize that the operands were reversed.
00:54:48 <pgimeno> that's what I meant but I'm not in my best moment... sorry
00:55:01 <jix> ppc gas syntax: add r11, r7, r8 ; add the values in registers r7, r8 and store in r11
00:55:21 <jix> normal to me
00:56:49 <jix> arm uses the same syntax
00:57:25 <jix> its like r11=r7+r8
00:59:23 <jix> i like the bla instruction
00:59:34 <int-e> it's actually not strange at all, but you'll find assemblers where it means add r11 and r7 and store the result in r8
00:59:48 <jix> int-e: that's like 3code
00:59:53 <jix> and that's an esolang
01:00:11 <int-e> what's bla? branch if less or above makes no sense ;)
01:00:11 <jix> 3code uses 1+2=x
01:00:28 <jix> int-e: Branch and Link using Absolute adressing
01:00:52 <int-e> another alias for call/bsr. I forgot that one.
01:01:28 <jix> on ppc there is no call
01:01:35 <jix> and no bsr
01:05:30 <jix> int-e: there is no operand order problems for the 1802
01:05:37 <jix> there is no instruction with more than 1 operand
01:05:56 <int-e> load-store architecture, eh.
01:06:27 <jix> the add instruction has no operands
01:07:04 <jix> you use SEX to specify the operand and add adds it to the accumulator
01:07:25 <jix> sex r1|add adds r1 to D
01:08:16 <jix> lament: did you know the Voyager Satellite has SEX?
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01:43:52 <jix> my assembler code works
01:44:07 <jix> Ru1802Asm.new("endless!;br endless").hex_assemble #=> "30 00\n"
01:44:30 <jix> labels are done using name! or _name
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01:56:10 <WildHalcyon> Great. First day.. its going to be an easy class
01:57:48 <WildHalcyon> Yeah, Im taking a genetics course to fulfill a 2 credit life science req. Its b.s.
01:58:21 <Gs30ng> Genetic programming language would be fun
01:58:46 <heatsink> all programming languages are genetic programming languages
01:58:52 <heatsink> you keep tweaking them until they work
02:00:00 <WildHalcyon> Well... my esolang is specifically geared towards genetic programming
02:00:38 <heatsink> interesting. But isn't the genetic code generally a domain-specific lagnauge?
02:00:39 <calamari> I've messed around with gp.. lots to learn there
02:01:21 <WildHalcyon> Its not in genetic code (ATGC...), its just used to model cells which reproduce themselves
02:01:33 <WildHalcyon> well.. it will be... once an implementation is built
02:02:13 <WildHalcyon> During my genetics lecture, I was working on a rough design for the interpreter system
02:03:02 <calamari> so you *were* enjoying class....
02:03:52 <WildHalcyon> If you consider not paying attention to class participation, then yes
02:16:44 * pgimeno ponders about writing an intelligent design language
02:17:36 <pgimeno> er... how's it called... the alternative theory to evolution
02:19:14 <heatsink> all programming languages are intelligent design languages
02:19:35 <Gs30ng> are all the programming languages genetic?
02:20:28 <Gs30ng> well i didn't meant that way... :(
02:20:56 <WildHalcyon> Hmm... I think Befunge might qualify as intelligent design (YOU can change the code, making you the intelligent creator)
02:21:35 <Gs30ng> then Versert should be most intelligent design
02:21:58 <Gs30ng> TC with no stack, but only self-modifying
02:22:20 <Gs30ng> http://dev.tokigun.net/esolang/versert/index_en.php
02:24:39 <pgimeno> for ID reference see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design (yes, my proposal was ironic)
02:29:02 <Gs30ng> i don't think all the programming languages are genetic
02:29:52 <Gs30ng> the process of the embodiment of them could be genetic but the languages themselves are not all genetic
02:31:18 <Gs30ng> actually i think nongenetic ones are more than genetic ones
02:39:16 <WildHalcyon> sorry, back stupid webmail said I had an incorrect password...
02:44:31 <WildHalcyon> I disagree on the statement that Versert is 'genetic' since it cannot modify its own code, only according to the definition that I listed above
02:49:09 <WildHalcyon> Its a sweet language though. Good work Tokigun
02:55:35 <Gs30ng> but i don't even know how to write hello world code with it
03:02:29 <int-e> 8+*~.@ prints an @?
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03:06:29 <Gs30ng> oh, that's how voodoo graphic card work
03:06:38 <Gs30ng> recieve the data, magic, send the data
03:08:40 <WildHalcyon> I was really peeved at this stupid girl today.
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03:08:52 <puzzlet> Gs30ng, what, you've made another language again?
03:09:05 <WildHalcyon> I was trying to rescue an abandoned kitten, and she came lumbering in and scared it off
03:09:08 <Gs30ng> what are you talking about
03:09:34 <puzzlet> or were you talking about Udage
03:09:54 <Gs30ng> the college entrance exam is 98 days left
03:09:59 <WildHalcyon> I think we were talking about Versert? or something
03:10:06 <Gs30ng> i can't make any more useless language
03:11:08 <Gs30ng> although i strongly want to do so
03:12:16 <Gs30ng> ...ok it does mean that i don't have any time to stay here for just fun too
03:19:29 <GregorR> Ahhhhhhhhhh, MUD = sooo much work.
03:19:34 <GregorR> I don't even have the entire basic foundation in place.
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05:14:18 <WildHalcyon> Im thinking of having a development blog of my language. Anyone know of a good blog site for a project like this?
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05:42:47 <Gs30ng> WildHalcyon: you'd rather use tools like WordPress of MovableType on your own account
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05:59:45 <WildHalcyon> Whats the diff between WordPress & MovableType?
06:03:10 <WildHalcyon> I suppose I should probably name the language before I try implementing a blog on the design too
06:03:27 <WildHalcyon> y'know.. register the domain and everything. It's just a pain, to keep updating and reposting the spec on my school account
06:12:23 <Gs30ng> udage was formerly 'Switch'
06:13:15 <Gs30ng> i suffured something similar
06:14:05 <WildHalcyon> Well, Im less concerned with that, and more concerned with the fact that CRAWL was never meant to be the language name
06:14:21 <WildHalcyon> its just a random thought that popped into my idea right around this same time a few days ago
06:14:49 <Gs30ng> well, you can use something like 'codename'
06:16:23 <WildHalcyon> but if I go through the trouble of reserving a domain name, I should probably have the name pretty much settled...
06:16:54 <Gs30ng> well actually you don't have to worry about domain thing
06:17:21 <Gs30ng> you can just redirect the pages
06:18:16 <Gs30ng> unless you're going to use some kind of name that seems to be registered sooner or later
06:18:54 <Gs30ng> just think unique name
06:18:56 <WildHalcyon> With my luck, whatever I DO call it will probably end up being registered anyways
06:21:21 <Gs30ng> and according to my experience, although it takes too much to come up with any nice name, don't give up to think
06:22:06 <WildHalcyon> I'll work on it. My gf helped me name that stray kitten, she can probably help with the esolang too ;-)
06:23:21 <Gs30ng> she told me that i don't need NAND thing
06:24:02 <Gs30ng> conditional jump only is more simple
06:24:34 <Gs30ng> oh, i mean that, she told me about NAND thing in Udage
06:25:16 <WildHalcyon> Hmm.. I dont know if my gf can help in that capacity. She's not a programmer
06:26:27 <Gs30ng> my gf is not a programmer too. well, she majors in physics
06:29:12 <WildHalcyon> Yeah, but Im not certain my gf has the interest in the project that yours might have in Udage.
06:29:48 <WildHalcyon> She paid enough attention to spot the NAND thing; that's gotta count for something, right?
06:30:11 <Gs30ng> some geeks name the lang after their gf
06:30:44 <WildHalcyon> Nope. Not gonna do it. Besides, her name is taken (by a furniture store)
06:31:37 <Gs30ng> i heard that Debian Linux(not a lang, though) is named after the developer and his... err... gf? wife? anyway
06:32:56 <WildHalcyon> I don't think she would appreciate that either, honestly. I'll think of a nice organic-sounding name that will be great
06:34:55 <Gs30ng> unexpectedly my gf's nickname is penguin
06:35:14 <Gs30ng> i hardly can use that on computer related thing, you know
06:35:26 <WildHalcyon> Unexpectedly, thats not a bad lang name. Is she a linux fan?
06:37:02 <WildHalcyon> not that that really makes a ton of sense unless you're into mountain goats
06:37:21 <WildHalcyon> Its a himalayan sheep. Famous for leaping on cliffs
06:37:50 <Gs30ng> well, would you tell me about the lang spec briefly?
06:39:03 <WildHalcyon> Its a funge-varient that implements function spaces that have their own topology (they wrap independent of the rest of the program). The stack is composed of lists, rather than separate elements (like Joy)
06:39:24 <WildHalcyon> I'm using the program to model genetically evolving programs, similar to the software Avida and Tierra
06:41:57 <WildHalcyon> I'm removing redundant funge elements in order to reduce the instruction set as well...
06:42:18 <Gs30ng> is halcyon provision the bharals? :)
06:42:55 <WildHalcyon> not that I am aware of. I just googled bharal, and I think someone lied to me :-(
06:43:13 <WildHalcyon> Apparently, its the Himalayan Tahr which lives on the cliffsides and the males try to knock one another off the cliff
06:44:43 <WildHalcyon> If you want to see the provisional spec, go here: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL.txt
06:45:08 <WildHalcyon> It mostly deals with how the implementation details would effect the project, but hopefully you can see where I am going with this.
06:45:51 <Gs30ng> well, penguin halcyon bharal, all animals
06:46:14 <WildHalcyon> yeah, but penguin and bharal are common names, I believe that halcyon is the scientific name for the kingfisher, correct?
06:47:14 <Gs30ng> afaik, halcyon is a mythic kingfisher
06:48:40 <WildHalcyon> Maybe its halcyonia or something like that is the genus...
06:49:12 <Gs30ng> my dic says, in greek myth, halcyon nests on the sea
06:50:15 <Gs30ng> then the waves and winds are gone, and the bird lays its egg
06:51:44 <Gs30ng> i had no idea that the word can be used as adjective
06:51:49 <Gs30ng> like peaceful and tranquil
06:52:24 <WildHalcyon> Yep, its rare, but the most common idiomatic usage is
06:52:46 <Gs30ng> how would Halcyon programming language be?
06:53:36 <WildHalcyon> Im not crazy about it, because there are several companies named halcyon. It just doesn't ring of authenticity
06:54:54 <WildHalcyon> I'll think of something. Im gonna go to bed now. I just updated the specification abstract again, so maybe I can mull this over and add it on tomorrow
06:55:49 <WildHalcyon> Everyone interested, check out http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL.txt to see the updated abstract!
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12:01:53 <jix> moin everyone
12:04:03 <Gs30ng> ...grouped everyone. lol
12:05:00 <Gs30ng> jix, how's your drow lang going?
12:05:12 <jix> hm it isn't really going
12:05:27 <jix> i have so many ideas.. can't realize them all...
12:05:38 <jix> but my 1802 assembler works
12:05:50 <Gs30ng> i feel something like that too
12:06:47 <Gs30ng> well, maybe a stupid advice but, just try to make them clear in your brain before you realize them
12:07:16 <jix> ever saw a complete assembler including power full macros and tools for LUT generation in 167 lines of code?
12:08:11 <Gs30ng> i don't actually know much about assemblers... well sounds funny for an esolang developer but whatever
12:08:30 <Gs30ng> but i'm interested. would you tell me about it briefly?
12:09:02 <jix> i was too lazy to implement a parser
12:09:13 <jix> and i thought.. why don't use ruby files as assembler files
12:09:36 <jix> in ruby if someone calls an undefined method the method method_missing is called
12:09:52 <jix> and i just check in method_missing if the called method is a register or a mnemonic...
12:10:16 <jix> and i get macros and LUT generation because one may write normal ruby code into the assembler file
12:10:54 <Gs30ng> that is really something.
12:11:42 <jix> and in the 1802 all instructions (2 exceptions) fit into 1 of 4 schemes
12:12:01 <jix> instruction with no operands.. only 1 byte
12:12:15 <jix> instructions with a register operand 4bit+4bit register 1 byte
12:12:33 <jix> and so on..
12:12:44 <jix> yes pretty cool for 1976
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12:27:44 <jix> grouped kipple
12:28:04 <kipple> grouped? what do you mean?
12:28:13 <jix> i always say moin
12:28:25 <jix> and Gs30ng told me that in his language moin means grouped
12:29:07 <kipple> I don't know what moin means either, but I'm guessing something like 'hello'
12:29:11 <jix> i've written an assembler in under 200loc
12:29:25 <jix> kipple: yes it's like hello (hello is hallo in german)
12:30:06 <jix> moin is short for mojen dach ( plattdeutsch (german dialect)) => guten tag (german) => good day (english)
13:28:05 <pgimeno> it must be funny to program for this... http://arrakis.ncsa.uiuc.edu/ps2/cluster.php
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14:56:49 <jix> my 1802 asm rules
14:57:28 <jix> 202 lines of assembler code.. no cli atm
14:57:44 <jix> 2 tla in a row cool
15:02:36 <jix> removed unused code.. 197 lines now
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19:42:45 <jix> GregorR: don't do that!
19:43:16 * GregorR types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types ..
19:44:50 <WildHalcyon> Anyone know why the pingpong page is so.. barren?
19:49:33 <WildHalcyon> Its got some nice syntax that befreak borrowed a bit of
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21:05:57 <jix> GregorR: how is your mud going
21:06:20 <GregorR> I did some cleanup yesterday, and almost have the math parser in place.
21:06:31 <jix> do you have a name?
21:06:36 <jix> i have a cool name
21:06:44 <jix> (for the mud)
21:06:53 <GregorR> For the MUD or the engine?
21:06:58 <int-e> infinite delusions
21:07:15 <GregorR> int-e is clearly not a MUDding fan :P
21:07:43 <GregorR> Or, int-e is a fan of delusions *shrugs*
21:08:12 <GregorR> jix: I'm just writing the engine, I'm no good at storyline design :P
21:08:15 <int-e> No. I've too many mud projects that were never finished.
21:08:46 <jix> GregorR: the engine should have a name
21:09:14 <GregorR> Of course, I just wanted to make sure I was clear on what was being named here ... OK, so what's your suggestion for the name for the engine?
21:09:56 <jix> Schlamm or another german word from http://dict.leo.org/se?lp=ende&p=/Mn4k.&search=mud
21:11:42 <GregorR> Schlamm sort of sounds like a pun on "MUD" and "SLAM!", which is an odd thing to pun against :P
21:14:02 <int-e> swamp ... (not quite)
21:14:33 <GregorR> They all seemed to have a number of not-quite-mud definitions.
21:16:28 <int-e> More Useless Dungeons.
21:29:23 <GregorR> IGEAMUAWCATFU = Immersive Game Engine Allowing Multiple Users from Around the World to Collectively Adventure Through a Fictional Universe
21:29:37 <GregorR> It really rolls of the tongue, too.
21:31:13 <calamari> add (Dungeon), then it can be -cat-food
21:31:52 <int-e> Fictional Universe Creator ... err ... never mind.
21:38:13 <jix> Fictional Universe Creator Kit?
22:05:15 <GregorR> Fictional Universe Creator Kit for Your Optimal Utilization of World-Heuristics Organization and Resource Engineering.
23:06:43 <GregorR> Unfortunately, programming a MUD at work is frowned upon :P
23:10:01 <jix> i'm still improving my assembler
23:10:21 <jix> it has macro local labels now
23:10:33 <jix> well you can specify label scopes anywhere
23:11:49 <GregorR> Hmm, I need to write a MISCas to go with my MISCvm (that I forgot to release yesterday >_>)
23:12:00 <GregorR> What does MISC ASM look like, anyway? :P
23:12:12 <jix> just numbers
23:12:14 <int-e> numbers, numbers, numbers_
23:12:16 <jix> no mnemonics
23:12:25 <jix> i love the word mnemonic...
23:12:32 <int-e> you could have one mnemonic, OP
23:13:06 <jix> Only Instruction Of Misc Instruction Set
23:15:25 <int-e> A: YCUAMOYCH A A A
23:15:36 <int-e> (you can use any mnemonic of your choice here)
23:16:00 <jix> allow any character combination as mnemonic
23:18:05 <int-e> and no, this is not meant to do anything.
23:18:34 <GregorR> Especially since there are four operands in MISC, not three :P
23:18:48 <calamari> jix: that old processor I used was the csc1805
23:19:12 <jix> calamari: 1805 is a enhanced 1802 afaik
23:21:15 <calamari> he 1804 had 64 bytes of memory, 2 KB ROM, on-chip oscillator and 8-bit timer. Instruction set of the 1804 was enhanced with 32 additional instructions, including subroutine call and return from the subroutine instructions. RCA 1805 (CDP1805) and 1806 (CDP1806) were similar to the 1804, but they didn't have on-chip ROM.
23:21:30 <calamari> that's why I had subroutines.. 1804 added 'em
23:22:26 <calamari> not having on-chip rom is correct.. we burned the rom separately
23:22:48 * calamari found an old work disk that he probably should have destroyed .. oh well :)
23:23:47 <jix> all the >1802 only instructions start with 68
23:24:35 <calamari> seems that there aren't very many popular cpu's out there..
23:26:36 <int-e> lots of mips derivatives
23:26:37 <jix> don't know more popular cpus
23:26:48 <jix> arm of course ^^
23:27:03 <int-e> sparc looked a lot like MIPS.
23:27:52 <jix> i've to add a cli to my assembler
23:27:54 <GregorR> Well, if you restrict it to desktop CPUs ...
23:28:04 <GregorR> Then you're down to about 3.
23:28:35 <jix> ppc disappears soon in desktop PCs
23:28:51 <jix> 6502 was in desktop PCs too
23:29:00 <GregorR> We are the borg. Your uniqueness will be absorbed into our own.
23:34:17 <int-e> we are the borg, we are unique?
23:44:42 <jix> i hate writing good cli:s
23:47:23 <jix> but gui apps make intensive use of the gui and the gui is more than a little wrapper for method calls
23:47:28 <jix> you write the gui with your app
23:47:46 <jix> i've done my asm and have no motivation for writing this stupid cli
23:48:14 <int-e> read from stdin, write to stdout
23:48:22 <jix> i have some options
23:48:25 <jix> like output format
23:48:35 <jix> output offset
23:48:51 <jix> and ruby has a good option parser
00:06:47 <GregorR> Hmm, can you use ruby as a library from C?
00:07:23 <jix> the ruby c api for embedding extensions and everything is nice
00:07:25 <GregorR> I wonder if making a ruby scripting interface would be possible / a good idea ...
00:07:33 <jix> but the documentation is bad/japanese
00:07:36 <jix> (of the c api)
00:07:48 <GregorR> What with the Object Oriented-tude :P
00:08:06 <jix> c++ objects aren't ruby objects
00:08:20 <jix> there is SWIG for using c++ from ruby
00:08:28 <jix> it's kind of a wrapper lib
00:09:10 <GregorR> Other way round, using ruby from C++ :P
00:09:23 <jix> don't know
00:09:56 <jix> i'd suggest writing the whole thing in ruby
00:10:14 <GregorR> To be frank, I don't like ruby very much.
00:10:36 <jix> then don't try to use it as scripting engine
00:11:00 <jix> there are languages that are better for embedding into applications
00:11:38 <jix> lua is good for embedding in c afaik don't know about c++
00:12:06 <GregorR> Well, I thought ruby might be nice because of the object-orientation aspect (what could be more object oriented than a mud?)
00:13:39 <jix> but if you have 2 total different kind of objects (implementation of them is different) than it makes no sense...
00:14:37 <jix> maybe you search something like: taoscript.sourceforge.net
00:14:46 <jix> it's somewhat c++ compatible
00:14:50 <jix> don't know more about it
00:15:42 <jix> wait that's the old url
00:15:50 <jix> renamed the language
00:15:51 <jix> http://daoscript.sourceforge.net/english/
00:16:25 <jix> but the new site has broken links
00:18:07 <jix> seems to be a nice language
00:19:19 <GregorR> I'm sort of afraid of embedding any language though, because that could add possible security issues >_>
00:19:27 <GregorR> (Whereas all code that I write is always perfect)
00:19:37 <jix> write your own perfect langauge
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00:20:22 <GregorR> Right now scripts are an extension of the basic MUD syntax, so they come out sort of like shell scripts.
00:21:06 <GregorR> if [ $a = 1 ] \n say hi \n endif
00:21:39 <jix> ask wouter to write a language for you
00:21:49 <jix> he did the scripting language for FarCry
00:22:08 <GregorR> I'm sure he would be glad to write one off hand for some random person he doesn't know :P
00:22:18 <jix> he is genius
00:22:41 <jix> GregorR: why not
00:22:59 <jix> if some random person on irc asks for a program i often start writing it
00:23:21 <GregorR> jix: Write an MMORPG engine and assign the copyright to me ... please 8-D
00:23:43 <jix> GregorR: you are not some random person
00:25:12 <int-e> GregorR, your code may be perfect, but do your trust your compiler?
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00:25:36 <GregorR> I wrote my compiler! And I built my processor, mother board, RAM, hard disk etc from sand.
00:26:09 <jix> GregorR: do you trust the sand...
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00:26:24 <jix> GregorR: do you trust the process of inventing?
00:26:33 <int-e> I'd trust sand further than most people.
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00:27:04 <jix> GregorR: pwnd (i wait for getting killed)
00:27:11 <jix> oh this isn't one of your muds...
00:27:15 <int-e> I don't expect much from sand and it doesn't do much.
00:27:25 <jix> int-e: sandstorms?
00:27:31 <int-e> While with people, I don't expect much but sometimes they do an awful lot of stuff
00:27:55 <int-e> I'd blame the sandstorms on the air, and on the sun.
00:28:00 <int-e> can't blame the sand really.
00:28:04 <jix> int-e: teachers expect an awful lot of stuff BUT...
00:28:21 <jix> int-e: without the sand there would be just a storm.. not as harmful as a sandstorm
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03:27:33 <WildHalcyon> Gregor, when I finish whatever CRAWL ends up being, want to write a scripting engine for me?
03:28:33 <WildHalcyon> I'll give you absurd and difficult implementation specs
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04:00:23 <GregorR> YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:00:31 <GregorR> Oh, just an engine, not a language?
04:00:38 <GregorR> And also, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:00:48 <GregorR> I just connected to my MUD engine via a MUD client for the first time :)
04:01:13 <WildHalcyon> well, it can be a language, but it has to be within the confines of my already created language, OR something my language can read
04:01:31 <GregorR> I would by far prefer to write an engine and not the language btw ;)
04:02:37 <WildHalcyon> well, in that case, the scripting engine. It's not going to be a MUD, its going to be an RL (roguelike - aka Nethack, ADoM, Angband, etc)
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06:50:20 <GregorR> Netsplits are wonderful, no?
06:54:41 <WildHalcyon> err.. what ARE netsplits? My brain is under-functional today
07:12:46 <calamari-> that's where a server splits off from the rest of the network, for whatever reason
07:13:31 <calamari-> sometimes this means a group of servers too, depending on the way the network is
07:14:00 <calamari-> what used to be fun on efnet is when the channel became desynched
07:14:04 <WildHalcyon> Im glad my arm doesnt randomly decide to become its own entity
07:14:50 <calamari-> when it's desynched, various servers see various parts of the conversation.
07:15:02 <calamari-> haven't seen that in a long time though
07:15:18 <WildHalcyon> so the whole conversation isnt seen by everyone? That could get interesting
07:17:37 <calamari-> yeah.. its not a straight split, because server 1 could be ppl a,b,d, 2: b, c, e, 3: a, c.. depending on which server you are on.. this would usually happen before a rejoin . I guess the servers would try to combine the conversations again and it took a while, or it'd get confused
07:24:45 <calamari-> maybe if people left and came back during the split.. dunno :)
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21:13:46 <jix> i can't use it
21:14:00 <jix> the only good thing about it
21:14:17 <Gs30ng> this internet lecture site also uses ActiveX control, even though it is run by Korea Government
21:15:29 <Gs30ng> i hate this. the government should consider FireFox users, or nonWindows OS users
21:16:40 <Gs30ng> maybe i can sue the government but i have no time for that. entrance exam is 95 days left
21:18:26 <Gs30ng> jix, what is the only thing good about it?
21:19:51 <Gs30ng> i can't find any good thing from it
21:20:16 <jix> 22:14:50<jix>i can't use it
21:20:16 <jix> 22:15:04<jix>the only good thing about it
21:22:04 <jix> because all browser that can use it are insecure
21:23:46 <Gs30ng> can i ask you what kind of OS or browser you use?
21:24:06 <jix> mac os x/safari
21:26:30 <Gs30ng> mac is sweet, but well, i expected more... uhm... esoteric machine (although mac is esoteric enough at here)
21:28:31 <jix> yes i'd like to build my own cpu with my own os
21:28:43 <jix> and use it for basic tasks like.. programming.. chatting etc...
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01:31:49 * pgimeno declares today as the ActiveX cursing day
01:32:47 <int-e> We hate Active X because MS cripples its OGL implementation to push it.
01:33:17 <WildHalcyon> /me says a brief, but poignant curse about ActiveX, followed by a moment of silence.
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04:27:16 <WildHalcyon> Some french bastards might have already stolen my idea!... :-(
04:27:59 <WildHalcyon> I suppose I can't expect it to be completely original, but considering how few people are aware of 2D languages...
04:40:05 <WildHalcyon> Hmm.. seems I can't track down their implementation. Might have to contact them. In French?! Meh. I'll just keep developing my own since I can't find out about theirs.
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08:17:30 <calamari_> my evening.. err, morning now, is fine, thanks ;)
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16:47:00 * nooga has written an esoteric language and don't know how to explain it's syntax :>
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16:53:30 <nooga> it's like Lisp's syntax
16:53:40 <nooga> but without those ( )
16:54:16 <nooga> and identifiers are 1 char long ;p
16:54:27 <nooga> that's my explanation
16:56:25 <int-e> sounds like unlambda to me
16:57:09 <nooga> :n,3100 @>n0 (2 !n !'
16:57:34 <nooga> will write numbers from 100 downto 1 separated by spaces ;p
16:58:11 <nooga> each function must have defined number of arguments
16:58:51 <nooga> unless it takes the number of arguments as a first argument
16:59:01 <int-e> I don't know what that does, but I see how that would allow for unique parsing of expressions.
16:59:34 <nooga> it returns 3 digit long number - 100
17:00:04 <WildHalcyon> What if I wanted a 31 digit number afterwards?
17:00:50 <nooga> my english isn't good
17:01:06 <nooga> but i need to write an description to put it in wikipedia
17:01:22 <nooga> and i don't know how to write a fancy one
17:02:02 <WildHalcyon> Well, the esolang wiki is nice and public domain, so if you just put something there, folks might clean it up and edit it for you
17:02:23 <nooga> maybe that's an idea
17:03:46 <WildHalcyon> After I see that spec in the wiki, I'd be more than happy to try editing it
17:06:22 * WildHalcyon corrects his syntax to be ,,,12101234567890
17:07:19 <nooga> :a+,210*b,212 -> a = 10 + b * 12
17:08:12 <WildHalcyon> I've always wanted to write a forward polish notation langusge
17:16:13 <nooga> i need to write a fancy interperter
17:16:27 <nooga> in perl for example...
17:17:22 <nooga> the first one was made in free pascal on my 10 years old laptop ;p
17:18:00 <nooga> when i was extremely bored
17:19:25 <WildHalcyon> Im guessing the digits input are in decimal?
17:22:54 <nooga> curious 'bout the name?
17:24:01 <nooga> SADOL - Sadistic And Damn Odd Language
17:28:33 <nooga> but it's on my laptop, that crap doesn't even have FDD
17:30:25 <nooga> Floppy Disk Drive :>
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18:15:31 <int-e> FAOL - fixed arity operator language
18:17:20 <int-e> "In mathematics and computer programming the arity of a function or an operator is the number of arguments or operands it takes"
18:19:47 <WildHalcyon> Ive been working on how to pass arguments to my functions
18:21:21 <WildHalcyon> Not sure yet. Might be similar to Pingpong, which has a second stack. There's an operation that pops off the first stack and pushes onto the second stack.
18:21:35 <WildHalcyon> A function might just take arguments off the second stack
18:21:45 <WildHalcyon> Could be difficult to turn into a genetic language though...
18:24:21 <nooga> ~f1f+#_01 <- a definition of a recursive function in SADOL, in C it looks like: f(x) {return f(x+1);}
18:24:56 <nooga> _ is a list holding actual parameters
18:26:47 <nooga> that's the number of arguments for f
18:27:52 <nooga> ~abc - defines a function named 'a' with b arguments, c is the body
18:30:21 <nooga> ~f1f+#_01 -> a = 'f', b = 1, c = 'f+#_01'
18:32:12 <nooga> i mean, #xy returns an element of x list which index is y
18:32:53 <nooga> i said that i can't explain my own language :/
18:33:35 <WildHalcyon> How does it know that f is the argument that it takes?
18:34:37 <WildHalcyon> I guess I dont understand the returning arguments...
18:35:24 <int-e> returning values is implicit
18:35:24 <nooga> there is a list named _
18:35:40 <nooga> that holds arguments
18:36:10 <int-e> what it says is: f takes 1 argument, and f(args) = f(args[0]+1);
18:36:22 <int-e> there is no return statement.
18:36:56 <nooga> function returns the value of lats call in it's body
18:37:40 <nooga> there is a special functions that does nothing and it's used for grouping other calls
18:38:16 <int-e> oh, it's an implicit progn ... hehe
18:38:26 <nooga> (4 :a+25 -31 *22 a
18:38:46 <int-e> nooga, actually: how can the function have more than one 'statement'?
18:41:18 <nooga> ~ g 2 (3 :a+#_0#_1 :b*#_0#_1 +ab
18:42:38 <int-e> ah, ( is progn, ok.
18:42:42 <nooga> g(args) {a=args[0]+args[1]; b=args[0]*args[1]; return a+b;}
18:43:39 <nooga> but there is a second tyle of functions
18:43:47 <nooga> working like , function
18:43:56 <int-e> ~ g 2 (2 :a+#_0#_1 :b*#_0#_1 +ab would be g(args) {a=args[0]+args[1]; return b=args[0]*args[1];} { a+b }
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18:44:09 <int-e> that is, two expressions/statements/programs/whatever.
18:45:32 <nooga> but, let's get back to that functions that arity isn't known
18:46:02 <nooga> they are defined like this ~ h -01 (...
18:48:20 <int-e> will the actual number of arguments be part of the arguments then? or will there be a length-of-list operator?
18:49:03 <nooga> #L-01 returns a length of L list
18:49:27 <nooga> i mean length = number of elements
18:49:51 <int-e> hmm. interesting choice, but consistent with the function definition.
18:51:54 <nooga> lists in SADOL are indexed from 0
19:03:21 <nooga> do you like it ;p?
19:04:13 <WildHalcyon> I like it, even if I dont understand it yet. Its better than mine, which lacks both a name and a confirmed syntax
19:05:12 <jix> nooga: i read the logs sounds cool
19:05:20 <nooga> but i need to write a fancy documentation ;p
19:05:28 <nooga> im having problems
19:05:40 <nooga> ... even in my national language
19:11:07 <jix> nooga: i think i got it
19:12:47 <jix> ~f0(2f3 never returns but if it would it would return 3.. right?
19:16:28 <jix> think i got it
19:16:41 <jix> i just need a list of build in functions and a interpreter
19:18:28 <nooga> i'll write interpreter in perl soon
19:19:15 <nooga> i think that perl is the best choice bcs SADOL implements lists, and dealing with lists is fairly easy in perl
19:22:37 <int-e> Hmm, builtin functions. _ -- return current argument list. # list index -- list[index] (index -1 is length), ~ function arity body -- define a function. : variable value -- assign a variable +, -, *, /. variable arguments: , number_of_digits digits -- constant integer (,242 = 42.) ( number_of_terms terms -- progn - execute the terms in order, return value of last term.
19:23:50 <int-e> is there anything that allows conditional execution?
19:24:32 <nooga> ? condition if_true if_false
19:25:21 <nooga> @ condition body - works like while(condition) body;
19:26:55 <nooga> ? condition if_true if_false - works like if(condition) if_true else if_false;
19:34:57 <nooga> i'll make a table of built in functions
19:44:33 <nooga> how to write about % a b ?
19:45:07 <nooga> "Returns a modulo of division a by b." ?
20:00:01 <nooga> in Polish it's named modulo ;p
20:06:00 <nooga> i'll end that stupid table tomorrow
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21:55:09 <nooga> i need to explain that in english: .3123 = 0.123
21:57:34 <jix> . has a variable number of arguments
21:58:01 <jix> and return all arguments as number/10^(number_of_arguments)
21:58:28 <jix> returns 0.arguemnts
21:58:55 <nooga> isn't it called fractional part ?
21:59:41 <jix> hmm i'm not a native english speaker..
21:59:55 <jix> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/FractionalPart.html
22:15:41 <nooga> i've almost done the list of those builtin functions
22:54:34 <nooga> viola! http://agentj.risp.pl/wysypisko/uploads/sadl.htm
22:55:02 <nooga> please, help me to correct language mistakes ;p
22:55:15 <nooga> and excuse my english
22:56:08 <jix> nooga: is there a function for getting names longer than 1 char?
22:56:56 <jix> and are variables local or global?
22:58:12 <nooga> and all names are 1 char long
22:58:51 <nooga> i thought about a namespaces ;>
22:59:04 <nooga> but there's only one char left
22:59:41 <jix> no local variables make recursion difficult ..
23:00:54 <nooga> im writing a new interpreter
23:01:27 <jix> is a string handled as an integer array (modulo 256) (with popping and pushing and indexing..)?
23:02:09 <jix> string pushed on string == appending?
23:02:40 <jix> good i'm thinking about a turing completeness proove
23:03:23 <jix> what's about comparing strings with numbers?
23:03:43 <jix> and using strings in conditions...
23:04:06 <nooga> string is threated as a number of characters
23:04:18 <jix> so "a" < 2
23:04:21 <jix> but "aaa" > 2
23:04:35 <nooga> got a better idea? :P
23:04:39 <jix> ; returns a 1char string or a integer?
23:04:53 <jix> nooga: no but i need some more info for writing programs in it (without interpreter)
23:05:50 <jix> getch in c returns int
23:05:54 <nooga> it's not equivalent to getch()
23:06:40 <nooga> if user will input "A pie" ; will return a string
23:06:51 <jix> oh it's multibyte?
23:07:03 <nooga> if user will input 10.6e-2 ; will return a number
23:07:17 <jix> hmm i'd like to have byte wise input
23:08:10 <jix> maybe let ; take an argument (bytes to read) 0 will read one expression (line as string number as integer/float) and 1 will read 1 byte as integer , 2 will read 2 bytes as string
23:09:23 <nooga> maybe let the symbols A to Z be global
23:09:38 <nooga> and a to z will be local
23:10:00 <jix> hmm another thing i need to know.. if i read one byte and get an eof.. what's the value
23:10:04 <nooga> let me change the table
23:10:20 <jix> 256, -1 ? (i think numbers are signed ints)
23:10:57 <jix> ok that's good.. makes binary input possible
23:14:03 <jix> are local functions possible?
23:14:17 <jix> it's easy if you store them like local varaibles
23:14:26 <nooga> function in function ?
23:14:38 <jix> i really like that language
23:14:43 <jix> think i'll implement it
23:15:41 <jix> (2:t"0[tn creates a string containing a byte with the value n?
23:15:54 <jix> (2 :t"0 [tn {cleaner}
23:16:47 <nooga> i've updated the table
23:16:57 <nooga> ill be here tommorow
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23:20:12 <jix> (2:i;0#-i,3256(4:t"0[ti!t:i;0 should be a cat program
23:20:55 <jix> ;",213Hello, world!
23:21:02 <jix> that language is cool
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05:27:30 <WildHalcyon> Ive been working all weekend, havent worked on my esolang :-(
05:27:51 <WildHalcyon> But its given me time to think of an ASM-befunge, using registers and memory.
05:28:07 <tokigun> i'm planning (or thinking) esolang which uses binary tree as data structure. there's such the esolang?
05:28:46 <WildHalcyon> Well.. I guess I mean an asm-style befunge variant
05:29:07 <tokigun> hmm... there's any example?
05:29:09 <WildHalcyon> Im not familiar with any esolang that uses trees. A generic binary tree, or do you have a more specific one in mind?
05:29:49 <tokigun> i mean generic binary tree... maybe.
05:30:50 <tokigun> each node has one integer as data, and the program travels the tree.
05:31:29 <tokigun> btw, i cannot understand what is asm-style befunge variant. :S
05:35:30 <WildHalcyon> That nooga fellow has an interesting language. Similar to false, really.
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07:50:41 <nooga> how are you calamari?
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08:11:09 <nooga> excuse me, i was afk ;>
08:13:33 <calamari> yeah me too.. searching the web for info
08:16:06 <nooga> calamari: invented something new?
08:19:15 <calamari> nope.. I was curious what it would take for my dream portable computer project
08:19:30 <calamari> I think the main problem is the display
08:19:59 <nooga> do you plan to use a color lcd ?
08:20:02 <calamari> a standard character or graphics lcd takes too much power.. the battery will give up after 100 hours or so
08:20:33 <calamari> in order to make it last years, it will need a reflective lcd display, like in a watch
08:21:52 <calamari> they don't use much power.. in fact an old watch I took apart I could rub the display and just from that certain segments would glow for a few seconds
08:23:02 <tokigun> nooga: i'm reading about your esolang... (SADOL... right?) cmeme is good :)
08:23:02 <nooga> but isn't it too small?
08:23:40 <calamari> too small? you mean for a useable computer display?
08:23:41 <nooga> i need to write a fancy documentation
08:24:02 <nooga> but my english is not good actually :>
08:25:29 <calamari> well, lets say I got an 8 digit model with 00000000 and 7 decimal points. I could generate hex 0-9/A-F for each
08:26:00 <calamari> I could use the decimal points for whatever I needed, : for a clock, etc
08:26:28 <nooga> tokigun: i've made a table of built-in functions: http://xdsl-4738.lubin.dialog.net.pl/~nooga/sadol.html
08:26:47 <tokigun> is there SADOL implementation?
08:27:49 <nooga> but it's not available
08:28:37 <tokigun> nooga: all whitespace is ignored?
08:28:48 <tokigun> (except " bulit-in function)
08:29:02 <nooga> but that laptop is blind and silent
08:29:28 <nooga> and i thing the ' function is senseless ...
08:29:47 <nooga> i think i will think change it
08:30:03 <nooga> i think i will change it*
08:30:07 <tokigun> 'a returns 97, 'A returns 65, and so on...?
08:31:06 <tokigun> table says: Returns a char (1 char long string) c. eg. '% = "%"
08:31:26 <tokigun> i mean "how about changing meaning of ' function to blahblahblah"
08:32:12 <nooga> that table is wrong ;p
08:34:26 <nooga> whart do you think about formatting SADOL code ?
08:34:56 <nooga> id's are one char long
08:34:58 <tokigun> then function name should be 1-byte long?
08:35:23 <nooga> ~a ~b ~c ~X ~Y etc.
08:35:33 <tokigun> then if given name is already used by variable? ignored?
08:36:08 <nooga> variable is overwritten
08:36:18 <nooga> (in the current implementation)
08:37:01 <tokigun> if code has too many functions, there would be no room for variables
08:39:45 <tokigun> what language are you writing SADOL intepreter in?
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08:45:26 <tokigun> <tokigun> if code has too many functions, there would be no room for variables
08:45:32 <tokigun> <tokigun> what language are you writing SADOL intepreter in?
08:46:06 <nooga_> the first implementation was made in free pascal, but it was crappy
08:47:21 <tokigun> in case of underflow, how does [ function work?
08:50:32 <tokigun> i suggest that user-defined function can be handled like variable
08:51:11 <tokigun> for example, to define function "a": :a ~3 +#_0 +#_1#_2
08:52:04 <nooga_> in the new interpreter
08:52:31 <tokigun> but it can be ambiguous....
08:53:10 <tokigun> if function was given as another function's argument, how to use the function?
08:54:27 <tokigun> special "apply" function is the solution... but not simple. :S
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08:56:48 <tokigun> if b is used as "b a", and b wants to call function a?
08:57:08 <tokigun> function a can be retrieved as "#_0" in function's body, but it cannot be called in current spec.
08:58:08 <nooga> #_0 will return a result of func. a call
08:59:40 <nooga> maybe there is an way to pass a reference to a
08:59:47 <tokigun> then... #_0 xyz is parsed as "#_0 x" if function a has one argument, "#_0 xyz" if function a has three arguments?
09:03:01 <tokigun> <nooga> #_0 will return a result of func. a call -- it seems that i don't understand this answer
09:03:39 <tokigun> then, #_0 returns a result of func with no arguments?
09:04:04 <nooga> i dont know how to say it
09:04:26 <nooga> _ returns a list of actual arguments
09:04:42 <nooga> if i call function f like this: fabc
09:05:06 <nooga> and f is defined like this ~f3...
09:05:35 <tokigun> (and function is treated as variable)
09:05:57 <nooga> _ holds only values
09:06:40 <tokigun> hmm i guessed wrong. don't mind it :)
09:07:19 <nooga> in the current implementation function IS NOT threated as a variable
09:07:41 <nooga> i can change it in the next versions
09:08:09 <nooga> i can redefine \ function
09:08:32 <nooga> because a it's not that necessary
09:09:18 <nooga> we can calculate root in that way: ^a.15
09:09:56 <nooga> \x will return a reference to x
09:13:29 <nooga> SADOL has got eval function
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09:15:22 <tokigun> in the function table, n should be like 1, 2, 3, `3101, ``101234567890?
09:18:24 <tokigun> nooga_: of course... statements like "+34blahblah are not allowed?
09:19:36 <tokigun> nooga_: how about this case?
09:20:27 <tokigun> meaning of this statement is depend on value of z
09:21:08 <nooga_> sadol interpreter is one, recursive function
09:22:26 <nooga_> so things like that are natural result of SADOL's architecture
09:23:10 <tokigun> i have to implement SADOL in C, or python, and so on... :)
09:24:19 <nooga_> i've implemented dynamic typing in my interpreter
09:24:49 <tokigun> in perl or python it is simple... maybe ;)
09:24:51 <tokigun> nooga_: string is not equal to list?
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09:31:34 <nooga__> writing SADOL's interpreter in python/perl isn't so hard
09:31:49 <nooga__> but string is a quite special list
09:32:11 <tokigun> then #"3abc1 returns 98? or new string "1b?
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09:32:45 <nooga__> "1b in current implementation
09:33:16 <tokigun> i think it should return 98... because there is no character-to-code function.
09:34:18 <nooga__> it would be great if you try to implement SADOL
09:35:11 <tokigun> i'll implement it, but i have to make clear some problems
09:35:11 <nooga__> you are the second person who wants to implement it :>
09:35:58 <tokigun> what about calling ; function with argument as list?
09:36:37 <nooga__> current implementation will do nothing
09:36:52 <nooga__> but i think it may return a list
09:37:12 <nooga__> i mean like 3 ; calls in one
09:37:23 <tokigun> oops, sorry. i mean not ; but ! function
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11:45:23 <WildHalcyon> Hmm, already been a fairly busy day here...
11:51:05 <WildHalcyon> I think Nooga could free some more instructions if he was running low on implementation space
11:51:32 <WildHalcyon> He can free the comma "," by making the period
11:56:08 <WildHalcyon> But then you couldn't "stack" the digits, but you could then use a comma as a delimiter
11:57:53 <WildHalcyon> Comments could use the same notation for number of characters to skip: {4blah would skip over blah...
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07:40:47 <nooga> tokigun: did you started implementing SADOL ?:>
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08:21:35 <nooga> i guess that means no :>
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12:54:11 <tokigun> hmm i've started implementing SADOL
12:57:03 <jix> what's the best way to convert a 25,964,951 digit binary number to decimal?
12:58:33 <tokigun> generally FFT is used, but if you really wanna print it see http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/mersenne.html
12:59:14 <jix> that code isn't really readable
12:59:55 <jix> It takes about 2 minutes 30 on a 2.4 GHz Pentium 4.... too much
13:12:46 <CXI> ...you realise that FFT is O(NlogN), right?
13:12:56 <CXI> it takes such a long time because you're converting a 25 million digit number
13:13:04 <CXI> if you want to speed it up you could always use a smaller number
13:13:37 <jix> i realized that the number is too big
13:22:29 <tokigun> perhaps i have to use something like Ruby's objectspace
13:24:53 <jix> tokigun: why?
13:28:24 <pgimeno> recent versions of gmp have a decent radix conversion routine
13:35:51 <jix> tokigun: is there a current complete SADOL spec?
13:36:18 <tokigun> nooga has written http://agentj.risp.pl/wysypisko/uploads/sadl.htm -- but he says it is obsoleted.
13:37:50 <jix> i think i'll make my own dialect
13:39:36 <tokigun> i think so... current spec is too ambiguous
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14:39:23 <WildHalcyon> I disagree, I dont think the current spec is ambiguous enough
14:39:50 <WildHalcyon> I say, if you can figure out how to build the interpreter from the spec, it gives too much away - like a mystery novel where you know who the bad guy is already!
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16:59:18 <jix> tokigun implements SADOL..
16:59:23 <jix> and i thought about it too
17:00:06 <jix> but i'd change some things in my implementation (and give it another name because its a different language then)
17:00:44 <nooga> tokigun: will you threat functions like a variables?
17:01:05 <tokigun> i'll implement original spec first
17:01:36 <nooga> do you know about that A to Z symbols are always global
17:01:46 <nooga> and a to z are local...
17:01:55 <jix> for functions too
17:02:11 <jix> local functions
17:02:44 <tokigun> i'm implementing dynamic typing.. somewhat boring
17:05:23 <jix> ruby afaik
17:05:50 <tokigun> nooga: http://tokigun.exca.net/dev/sadol/sadol.c current code
17:05:52 <nooga> hehe.. try to imagine me implementing lists and dynamic typing in old Free Pascal
17:06:10 <nooga> on a 10 years old laptop
17:06:38 <jix> tokigun: you talked about ruby...
17:06:51 <jix> i thought you use it for implementing
17:08:33 <nooga> writing SADOL interpreter in Perl or other lang. which has got lists and dynamic typing is easier
17:10:37 <nooga> your site is in corean
17:10:42 <jix> nooga: another cool esolang idea?
17:11:16 <jix> nooga: do you have another cool idea for an esoteric language?
17:12:23 <tokigun> and as you see, my english is not very well ;)
17:13:43 <nooga> lol, that korean signs look kinda esoteric :)
17:14:59 <nooga> jix: actually i have one idea
17:15:27 <nooga> but it's brainfuck based
17:15:36 <nooga> and that makes it uncool
17:15:42 <jix> my only language is brainfuck based too :(
17:16:07 <jix> i don't have good ideas...
17:18:44 <nooga> mine is brainfuck in perforated-card-like notation
17:19:32 <jix> that is even more uncool than mine because it's just another name for the same things... ;)
17:19:33 <nooga> and program must be written as separate rectangles 16x24 characters
17:28:30 <nooga> http://rafb.net/paste/results/os31mB56.nln.html
17:29:50 <jix> it doesn't load here
17:30:05 <nooga> http://rafb.net/paste/results/os31mB56.html
17:30:28 <jix> no the whole rafb.net page doesn't respond...
17:30:49 <jix> i can ping the server
17:30:52 <jix> ah it works now
17:31:25 <jix> but it's just another way to write brainfuck
17:31:31 <jix> my language is based on brainfuck but different
17:31:44 <jix> http://esolangs.org/wiki/YABALL
17:33:12 <nooga> maybe it will be funny to write SADOL interpreter in Java
17:33:34 <nooga> Multithreaded SADOL >:D
17:35:09 <nooga> but i dont know Java ;p
17:37:04 <nooga> my dog needs to ... nvm
17:37:26 <nooga> got to go... maybe i'll be back
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17:48:36 <jix> fix your clock (18:47:15<puzzlet>oops 1:50 AM)
17:49:30 <puzzlet> perhaps there's a personal daylight saving time in my computer
17:50:37 <jix> i sync my clock with a timeserver so it should be the correct time
17:50:55 <puzzlet> my ubuntu should do it for me
17:51:03 <jix> my osx should do it for me
17:52:32 <jix> your clock is 2 minutes in front of mine.. (and a few time zones but that doesn't affect minutes)
17:53:16 <puzzlet> i got a remote server crashed and i can't figure out why
17:53:39 <puzzlet> when i ping it doesn't pong back
17:53:47 <tokigun> i also sync my clock with a timeserver
17:54:02 <jix> tokigun: your clock is -1 min (compared with mine)
17:54:18 <jix> maybe the timeserver-hoster want chaos all over the world!
17:54:30 <puzzlet> IRC must have a good time sync bot
17:54:32 <jix> maybe the nasa kidnapped all timeserver-hosters
17:55:17 <jix> to control the time
17:55:33 <puzzlet> but time flys like an arrow
17:55:38 <tokigun> when my clock reads 01:55:27, cmeme says it was 01:55:28
17:56:03 <tokigun> it seems that my clock is correct with error less than 10 seconds
17:56:24 <jix> have to restart my mac.. new tv-card driver installed
17:56:27 <puzzlet> then it's me whose time's incorrect
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17:57:22 <tokigun> puzzlet: when my sync program was inactive for unknown reason, it has error more than minutes. :S
17:58:28 <puzzlet> does that mean your hardware fails to keep its clock constant?
17:59:31 <lindi-> linux doesn't use hardware clock when it's running afaik
17:59:58 <lindi-> it just reads it on bootup
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20:06:33 * nooga listens to the Pink Floyd ;p
20:33:22 <nooga> lol -> http://photos6.flickr.com/7234920_0aed5a3cd2.jpg?v=0
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00:36:55 <GregorR-W> Could you write this exact line to this channel?
00:37:46 <Wildhalcyon> Could I write what exact line to this channel?
00:38:25 <GregorR-W> Could you write /this/ exact line (the line I am writing, this very question) to this channel?
00:38:57 <Wildhalcyon> Could you write this exact line to this channel?
00:39:07 <GregorR-W> I'm trying to make an IRP quine :P
00:39:44 <GregorR-W> OK, so now that you know the background a bit better (I want a nice clean log :) )
00:39:50 <GregorR-W> Could you write this exact line to this channel?
00:40:06 <jix> you just asked my if i could
00:40:15 <GregorR-W> Please write this exact line to this channel.
00:40:18 <jix> if you want us to do it you have to write Please write this exact...
00:40:22 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel.
00:40:53 <Wildhalcyon> Please write this exact line to this channel.
00:41:21 <Wildhalcyon> Hmmm, Gregor, Im afraid your language has an unusual amount of side effects
00:41:42 <GregorR-W> Now let me test some of the programs I posted ...
00:42:04 <jix> Hello, World!
00:42:56 <jix> Please say "/quit if this is my quit message I'm stupid"
00:43:10 <GregorR-W> /quit if this is my quit message I'm stupid
00:43:13 <jix> this is a interpreter compatibility check
00:43:19 <jix> sorts out bad implementations
00:43:40 <GregorR-W> These are the first 16 digits of the fibonacci sequence: 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987
00:43:45 <GregorR-W> Please, some one write the first 16 numbers of the Fibonacci Sequence.
00:43:58 <jix> the first 16 numbers of the Fibonacci Sequence.
00:46:49 <jix> please tell me the digital root of the largest know prime number
00:47:19 <GregorR-W> What is the largest known prime number?
00:47:42 <jix> GregorR-W: 2^25964951 - 1
00:48:22 <jix> please tell me the exact solution
00:49:04 <GregorR-W> This is where it becomes clear that IRP is not turing complete ;)
00:49:44 <jix> GregorR-W: well you can calculate it with a few 32bit integers
00:50:18 <GregorR-W> If somebody was so inclined, they could write a program and then respond with the proper answer *shrugs*
00:50:31 <GregorR-W> However, the whole language depends on the inclination of the fellow IRP programmers :P
00:50:45 <jix> DigitalRoot_10(2^n) == DigitalRoot_10(2^(n mod 6)) afaik
00:52:56 <jix> please print the interpreter's release date.
00:53:12 <GregorR-W> Sorry, I don't tell my age to people online ;)
00:53:21 <jix> GregorR-W: why not?
00:53:46 <GregorR-W> Because if you knew the truth, /IT WOULD HAUNT YOU FOR ALL ETERNITY/!!!!!
00:54:48 <Wildhalcyon> GregorR, Im already haunted for all eternity. Mostly by guilt and humiliation
00:55:08 <jix> my release date is 05 Apr 1991
00:55:50 <jix> yeah i'm up-to-date
00:57:26 <jix> Wildhalcyon: i think i'm bug free.. i hope so
00:57:38 <jix> i'd dislike it if there are bugs in me...
00:58:43 <GregorR-W> Gregor is an undergraduate college student.
00:58:49 <GregorR-W> That's as close as you get to know :P
00:59:07 <jix> i'm un-us i don't know what a undergraduate college student is...
00:59:42 <jix> what's college?
01:00:05 <GregorR-W> University ... don't know other international words for it.
01:00:51 <GregorR-W> (Well, actually, college != university, but they're used almost interchangeably in most scenarios)
01:01:18 * Wildhalcyon has attended both colleges and universities
01:01:38 <GregorR-W> A university is a conglomeration of colleges (at least, in the US)
01:02:15 <GregorR-W> So PSU, my university, has a college of engineering and computer science, a college of business, a college of education, etc.
01:02:40 <GregorR-W> But the terms are nowhere near that concrete :P
01:02:57 <GregorR-W> Dern you for making me realize that particular flaw in the English language :P
01:03:35 <Wildhalcyon> its not YOUR flaw with the language, its a flaw within the language itself
01:05:08 <GregorR-W> I claim this flaw in the name of Gregor Richards!
01:05:53 <jix> please give me 1000 Euro
01:06:01 <Wildhalcyon> It shall now be known as the Gregor Richards Ambiguity
01:06:21 <jix> hmm i think this feature isn't supported by any interpreter
01:13:38 <Wildhalcyon> So Im trying to decide how to deal with functions and threads
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01:17:49 <GregorR-W> You've awakened the gazebo! It catches and eats you.
01:31:26 <jix> calculate a prime number that is larger than the largest known prime number
01:53:45 <int-e> people are already spending more computing power on that than is good for them
01:54:33 <jix> i don't know what that is.. i'm feeling stupid now... http://redhanded.hobix.com/-h/hoodwinkDDayOneForcingTheHostToAttendTheParty.html
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02:19:26 <WildHalcyon> Anyone have any suggestions for character sets to use besides ASCII and Unicode? Something a lil' more.. erm... esoteric?
02:22:27 <int-e> it's interesting to compare ebcdic and ascii, and then look at the base64 character table.
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03:32:25 <calamari> well, my automata class won't be covering lambda calculus.. not even mentioned in the book
03:34:31 <int-e> but it doesn't belong to automata theory
03:46:17 <calamari> well the class is actually about the theory of computation
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03:46:35 <int-e> it belongs to that, yes.
03:46:45 <calamari> finite automata is just a part of the class
03:47:07 <int-e> finite automata are boring. hmm. let me guess, it does stack machines and turing machines, too?
03:47:25 <int-e> stack machines = push down automata.
03:47:26 <calamari> turing machines.. not sure about stack
03:47:36 <calamari> haven't been to the first class yet
03:50:19 <calamari> topics: Deterministic finite automata, Nondeterministic finite automata, Regular expressions, Nonregular languages (Pumping Lemma), Context-free grammars, Pushdown automata, Non-context-free languages, Turing machines, Decidability, Reducibility, Complexity (P/NP/NP-c)
03:52:13 <calamari> me bends a piece of memory into two stacks.. yay
03:52:40 <calamari> at least I assume that's what a stack machine is about
03:55:52 <int-e> a pushdown automaton has only a single stack
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03:56:15 <int-e> so it's computationally weaker than a turing machine but stronger than a finite state automaton
04:29:26 <calamari> hmm. wonder if 2 queues is enough
04:30:41 <calamari> seems like a circular queue would be
04:36:26 <calamari> no, couldn't possibly be.. because then memory would be finite
04:40:14 <calamari> hmm, queues alone don't seem like they are enough, because they'd have to be finite
04:42:46 <calamari> afk.. gotta think about this some more :)
04:44:41 <calamari> yeah.. seems that a stack can be emulated with 2 queues
04:45:02 <calamari> so it'd take 4 queues to be tc?
04:57:53 <int-e> a circular queue is enough if it can grow.
04:58:33 <int-e> which is easy using the same interface as a stack - push (on one end) and pop (from the other).
04:59:01 <calamari> right... that's what I was originally thinking.. but I for some reason thought it had to be fixed size
04:59:34 <calamari> I'm trying to think about 2 growing non-circular queues
05:05:04 <calamari> a queue is easily made to be circular, so I guess it doesn't matter
05:08:32 <int-e> it's a queue. the circularity is an implementation detail. right.
05:34:24 <GregorR> Time for the Unturing Test!
05:35:41 <GregorR> You declare the Unturing Test with about 10 people (staggered over time), and attach ELIZA to 5 of them. The other 5 you communicate with, trying to emulate ELIZA. If you fool any of the 5 that you did not attach ELIZA to, you are successfully Artificially Unintelligent!
05:38:44 <int-e> Is it because I did not attach eliza to I am successfully artificially
05:38:44 <int-e> unintelligent that you came to me?
05:47:47 <GregorR> How to you feel about I did not attach eliza?
05:47:58 <int-e> lol -> Can you elaborate on that?
05:48:27 <int-e> stupid emacs doctor mode.
05:48:36 <GregorR> I wonder if you can turn MegaHAL into ELIZA...
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06:00:40 <calamari> 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610
06:01:38 <calamari> now you can update the IRP page ;)
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06:03:25 <WildHalcyon> Your talk on queues got me thinking calamari
06:03:47 <calamari> glad someone is.. not sure I am tonight :)
06:04:16 <WildHalcyon> Im just pondering other potential data structures that could be used
06:05:59 <WildHalcyon> I broke out my Data Structures book from undergrad to take a look at other options
06:06:56 * calamari hides from WildHalcyon's B-Tree
06:07:24 <WildHalcyon> you think a B-Tree is the worst up my sleeve?
06:08:29 * nooga wonders how's tokigun going with SADOL interpreter ;>
06:09:16 <WildHalcyon> right now, Im debating between a treap, a k-d tree, and a pairing heap
06:10:03 <WildHalcyon> hmm... fibonacci heaps seem pretty neat too
06:10:48 <WildHalcyon> Treaps are cool because they could be used to implement a sort of "bag" data structure
06:11:06 <WildHalcyon> You can put stuff in, but every time you pull something out, its random.
06:11:49 <WildHalcyon> Basically, its a stack with a push operation and a pop which pops randomly from the bag. Nice and nondeterministic
06:15:49 <WildHalcyon> Im not sure if it counts as being TC, because you're never GUARANTEED to get the result you want
06:32:04 <nooga> what are k-d trees?
06:34:57 <calamari> A way to hold two types of data and search for a combo of both
06:36:42 <calamari> the rows alternate between the two types.. i.e. when deciding which goes left and which goes right underneath it
06:37:59 <WildHalcyon> Right, essentially, a 2-d tree has two types, a 3-d tree has three types to search among, etc.
06:38:24 <calamari> so if the types are A and B.. the root would be based on A.. so if you had (A-1,4) it'd go left, (A+1,4) goes right. But, now.. the 2nd row is based on B.. so if B>4 go right, otherwise left
06:38:40 <calamari> hope that makes some kind of sense.. I have no really studied these trees :)
06:40:35 <WildHalcyon> That's pretty much it. At each level of the binary tree, sort based on different types of data
06:41:47 <calamari> hmm.. lets say BST bf... you'd have left/right/up
06:43:14 <calamari> but you'll also want to be able to manipulate the tree
06:46:34 <calamari> nah.. who cares if it's balanced :)
06:57:20 <calamari> hmm, maybe it's just been too long since data structures, but it doesn't seem like trees and arrays really mix, unless it's a non-bst
06:58:12 <nooga> how to say 'without any arguments' in one word?
07:02:32 <calamari> seems like there is a special word to describe that for asm intructions, but I can't think of it
07:04:28 <nooga> then i'll use 'argumentless'
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08:32:46 <nooga_> SADOL's homepage is almost done
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13:30:05 <nooga> r u there tokigun?
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14:12:46 <Keymaker> nooga: good to hear SADOL's page is almost done
14:13:00 <Keymaker> i checked the 'pre-version' or something; seemed interesting
14:18:49 <Keymaker> GregorR: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987
14:19:18 <GregorR> Wow, that program took a long time to run.
14:24:27 <Keymaker> i think i'll add my Unnecessary to joke languages list
14:28:20 <Keymaker> what is good word for 'source code'?
14:28:44 <GregorR> "source code" is an excellent word (OK, phrase) for "source code" :-P
14:30:01 <GregorR> If it wasn't 6:30AM here, I might be able to think of one.
14:30:34 <Keymaker> well, better get to work then >:)
14:32:23 <Keymaker> :) well, i guess i use 'program file' then
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16:58:59 <GregorR-W> Have I left this logged in all night?
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17:36:08 <jix> moin nooga
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17:48:12 <nooga> jix: i guess you're using apple computer huh?
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18:05:07 <jix> nooga: mac os x 10.4
18:07:01 <jix> but i used at least one version of all mayor versions starting with 7 (7.x,8.x,9.x,10.0.x,10.1.x,10.2.x,10.3.x,10.4.x)
18:07:16 <jix> nooga: why do you ask?
18:07:38 <nooga> ist's kinda exotic
18:07:56 <nooga> once i even wanted to buy a Mac Mini
18:08:30 <jix> it has poor graphic performance
18:08:54 <jix> to get all the osx eye-candy you need a better graphic card than the one of the mini
18:09:32 <jix> the mini graphic card has no core-image acceleration support
18:10:19 <nooga> i thought that the mini has got radeon 9200
18:10:42 <jix> hmm radeon 9200 is maybe too old for core-image acceleration
18:12:23 <jix> core image makes intensive use of fragment-shaders (the basic effects of the UI don't use them but the dashboard widget drop effect does)
18:16:04 <nooga> i've got nVidia gf4 MX 440 in my PC ;p
18:16:15 <jix> hmm is that good?
18:18:14 <jix> do you know that drop-in effect?
18:18:19 <jix> from dashboard
18:19:29 <jix> i made a video (mpeg 4) it's a bit slow because of screen recording
18:19:31 <jix> http://rapidshare.de/files/4292460/dropin.mp4.html
18:19:38 <jix> click on free and the download should start...
18:20:50 <jix> you have to wait a few seconds..
18:25:59 <jix> GregorR: my old gf2mx worked great too
18:26:07 <jix> i just missed this drop-in effect
18:26:48 <jix> and 80% of the quartz-composer effects (a developer tool for effect composition but i don't know any app that uses this)
18:27:30 <jix> and i can play games on higher resolutions now...(ati radeon 9800pro) *g*
18:29:43 <jix> nooga: do you have quicktime?
18:30:01 <jix> version 6 or newer?
18:30:18 <jix> video lan client works too
18:31:58 <GregorR-W> You people and your visual effects.
18:32:14 <jix> GregorR-W: *g*
18:32:23 <GregorR-W> How could that effect possibly be useful :P
18:32:43 <jix> GregorR-W: there is a simple answer...
18:33:07 <jix> GregorR-W: it wasn't meant to be useful.. it was meant to make windows user think "WOW LOL OMG! I want to have THAT!"
18:33:10 <nooga> i run windows without any effects :>
18:33:22 <nooga> i've got XP, but it looks like nt 4 :p
18:34:05 <nooga> MacOS X looks eyecandy
18:34:15 <jix> i have no problem with the effects because mac os x uses hw accelerated blitting for everything.. makes no difference if there is an alpha channel or not...
18:34:23 <nooga> i helped to develop SenseOS
18:35:00 <nooga> we wanted to make OpenGL GUI and make it look even better than MAcOS X ;p
18:35:11 <nooga> but the project has died
18:35:22 <jix> but someday i take 20 arm or ppc or custom processors and build my own computer with my own os ...
18:35:48 <nooga> currently we have GUI on VESA with complete API that looks exactly like BeAPI
18:35:57 <nooga> and some ports from unix
18:36:13 <jix> i don't know polish... can't read that...
18:37:04 <nooga> coreutils, binutils, makeutils, gcc, perl, bash, nano, mc, irssi, elinks etc etc.
18:37:26 <jix> nooga: i googled for SenseOS
18:37:40 <nooga> ah, it's completely dead
18:37:48 <jix> it has font anti-alliasing
18:37:49 <nooga> maybe i've got some screens
18:38:00 <jix> i've got some...
18:38:11 <jix> http://agentj.risp.pl/?Projekty:SenseOS:Screenshoty
18:38:57 <nooga> and freetype support ;p
18:42:12 <nooga> but it's f*in dead
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19:17:08 <nooga> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/index.php
19:34:01 <nooga> pleeez say something
19:38:33 <nooga> say that you finished it !
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22:16:29 <jix> be careful with recursive forks
22:16:38 <WildHalcyon> As Ive mentioned more than is good for me, I'm creating a Funge-derivative which uses separate topological spaces for different functions, and each is given a label
22:17:32 <WildHalcyon> Im trying to think of a way in which to assign a cell to multiple function spaces simultaneously
22:20:19 <WildHalcyon> (reading the SNUSP spec again) Is it just me, or is there something... enchanting... about seeing the f-bomb dropped in what looks like an academic paper?
22:41:53 <jix> people should learn to use pdf(la)?tex
22:42:52 <jix> those =>dvi=>pdf things have no pdf specific features like links in the Contents and arn't nice on the screen
22:43:02 <jix> =>dvi=>ps=>pdf is even worse...
22:45:41 <jix> that is no fun!
22:46:32 <jix> this snusp sepc pdf is really fucked up
22:46:53 <jix> i select text.. copy it... and get %/]||]01}“¶}≠¶|¢ alike things...
22:51:33 <jix> made my own pdf out of the textfile
22:52:20 <nooga> wanna see a funny pic ;p ?
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22:53:44 <nooga> look, o'reilly has released a book about SADOL: http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/sadol.jpg
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22:56:28 <calamari> well, definitely to lambda calculus.. asked hte instructor and he said No :)
23:10:38 * nooga likes manipulations with photoshop :>
23:13:52 <WildHalcyon> fyi nooga, the word you're looking for is "painful"
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23:27:55 <nooga> WildHalcyon: but say, you like that cover
23:28:21 <calamari> nooga: ever find a better word than argumentless ?
23:29:08 <calamari> maybe that wasn't you.. sorry :)
23:29:40 <nooga> i just wrote 'argumentless'
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23:35:58 <WildHalcyon> Nooga, its alright... the fact that half the girl's head is cut off bothers me a bit
23:36:26 <nooga> i tried to find other
23:37:25 <nooga> but that one was the best: http://images.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Apl-PL%3Aofficial_s&q=dominatrix&hl=pl&btnG=Szukaj+obraz%C3%B3w ;p
23:45:55 <WildHalcyon> There was no way to reposition her on the cover though?
23:57:38 <nooga> what a stupid joke
23:57:52 <nooga> making false book covers :>
00:00:36 <WildHalcyon> There are lots of stupid jokes. several are esolangs
00:01:18 <WildHalcyon> Then again, SOME esolangs are so cool, it makes me poop my pants
00:02:10 <WildHalcyon> Have you heard of a language called Frink?
00:02:22 <WildHalcyon> Its an engineering language, every calculation keeps track of units
00:02:51 <WildHalcyon> among other features (arbitrary-precision floats)
00:04:58 <WildHalcyon> I think it could be refined better... I'd try redesigning it myself, but personally, Im having enough trouble with my esolang. Ive settled on a name, now if only I could decide on some syntax issues
00:06:06 <WildHalcyon> I have a sort of sandbox syntax, but its not ready for the public, since its still fairly undefined and messy
00:06:39 <nooga> now i think that SADOL programs are looking very cool :D
00:07:04 <nooga> ~q1:i0:n##_0-01@|<in=in?>###_0i-010q##_0i!##_0i qP
00:07:10 <WildHalcyon> Yeah, your language is definitely coming together nicely
00:07:24 <WildHalcyon> Let me know when you've implemented a complex GUI system and some networking ;-)
00:08:18 <nooga> i thought about macros
00:08:59 <nooga> you know, the basic ones, like include, define..
00:09:36 <WildHalcyon> That stuff always seemed unclean. I felt dirty after programming in C for too long. Had to take a shower
00:11:41 <WildHalcyon> Okay, Im joking, but seriously... C bothered me a lot. C++ didn't help. Java makes me ill. Im just not meant for normal programming languages
00:12:55 <WildHalcyon> Im trying to keep everything in my language as orthogonal as possible. Im sacrificing things such as conventional notions of I/O and keeping the language fairly small
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01:58:40 <nooga> Wildhalcyon: cycling :>
02:18:40 <Wildhalcyon> I can't help it. My retarded ISP is like "you dont really want to be online anymore..."
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02:31:30 <nooga> i was swiching to linux
03:11:02 <nooga> i must catch tokigun
03:13:03 <nooga> that reminds me one song
03:13:57 <Wildhalcyon> reminds me of.. the gingerbread man, I guess. Could be a pink floyd song. Im less familiar with them than I ought to be
03:19:07 <nooga> "...take a couple if you wish... there are on the dish..."
03:22:26 <Wildhalcyon> How would you feel about an OO-like language that allowed a member of one object to belong to belong to another object as well?
03:23:46 <Wildhalcyon> Im not quite sure how I feel about this yet.. just trying some ideas out today
03:24:01 <nooga> may be interesting
03:24:40 <Wildhalcyon> Im not even super-clear on where Im trying to go with everything right now. The spec is a real mess... :-(
03:25:21 <nooga> it's hard to invent something new
03:25:56 <nooga> cool ideas are mostly coming when you're far away from computer
03:26:45 <Wildhalcyon> Its not that I don't have a good idea.. its that I dont have good ideas on how to implement the good idea. And then Im trying to union that with ANOTHER good idea... and neither is really going well
03:27:30 <nooga> Wildhalcyon You'll never catch him
03:27:30 <nooga> Wildhalcyon he's the gingerbread man
03:27:38 <tokigun> (i'm using irc proxy so i'm always connected to server but i cannot answer always.)
03:28:09 <Wildhalcyon> Thats quite alright Tokigun. Your silence speaks volumes
03:28:30 <tokigun> nooga: SADOL implementation is not finished... :S
03:28:51 <nooga> i just tried to ask about that
03:29:06 <nooga> i don't even dare to suspect that it's done
03:29:40 <nooga> what have you implemented?
03:30:11 <tokigun> dynamic typing system is almost implemented, but language isn't.
03:30:33 <tokigun> (i had to implement them yesterday but i was so busy...)
03:30:37 <nooga> i've almost finished SADOL's site -> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/
03:30:50 <Wildhalcyon> Alright, Im going to go back to the drawing board. I think the syntax for multiple function labels will be too complex - especially for use in a digital organism simulation. bbl
03:31:35 <nooga> And i've found something on o'reilly :D -> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/sadol.jpg
03:32:30 <tokigun> nooga: '"1% should return 37?
03:34:16 <tokigun> in the example, ',237 returns "%". but it can be parsed as "ASCII code of character ','(comma)".
03:35:17 <tokigun> you'd better change the example ;)
03:35:44 <nooga> im lost in my own language
03:46:12 <nooga> !"7SADOL\n@1(3!"2> `;0!"2\n
03:46:37 <nooga> a SADOL interactional interpreter written in SADOL :)
03:47:23 <int-e> viola is a musical instrument.
03:47:33 <nooga> okay, i'll remember
03:58:16 <nooga> tokigun: and remember - WORK!!! >:D
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05:12:26 <Wildhalcyon> Why do people have to take a great idea and add so much fluff that it makes the great idea freakin' pointless?
05:37:09 <tokigun> i'm testing dynamic typing system. sometimes it makes memory leak.. :(
05:41:37 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, yeah.. that'll do it. Im not a big malloc guru
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06:14:10 <nooga> my stupid dog has woken me up
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06:50:41 <tokigun> yeah, dynamic typing system is done.
06:50:48 <tokigun> http://tokigun.dnip.net/.local/work/Works/esolang/sadol/dyntype.c
06:51:01 <tokigun> it's time to implement SADOL itself...
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07:41:30 <Gs30ng> well i found a little typo on your SADOL page
07:41:49 <Gs30ng> Arhitmetical -> Arithmetical
07:43:11 <Gs30ng> well top of 'A table of SADOL's built-in functions.' thing
07:44:08 <Gs30ng> i think you've made pretty darn spiffy language
07:45:37 <Gs30ng> and i also love your nickname. 'nooga', in Korean, my native language, means 'Who is' or 'Who does'
07:47:13 <Gs30ng> like, 'Who moved my cheese?' is 'Nooga nae cheese-reul omgyosulka?' in Korean
07:49:38 <nooga> no, it's random :)
07:49:53 <nooga> random letters hehe
07:50:43 <nooga> but in Polish 'noga' means 'a leg', and when you try to pronounce 'nooga' it sounds like 'noga' in Polish :)
07:50:50 <nooga> that's a funny thing
07:58:16 <Gs30ng> Would anybody tell me who possess the domain http://www.esolangs.org?
07:59:33 <Gs30ng> i and tokigun are considering making an esolang wiki in Korean, and thought that the domain like ko.esolangs.org will be good
07:59:47 <Gs30ng> so i'd like to ask the owner to...
07:59:55 <Gs30ng> ...er, what's wrong, puzzlet?
07:59:56 <puzzlet> isn't the wiki redirects to esoteric.voxelperfect.net?
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08:00:27 <puzzlet> try http://esolangs.org/wiki and you'll be redirected to another domain
08:00:33 <tokigun> puzzlet: redirection? i think it was URL rewriting
08:00:40 <puzzlet> that probably means esolangs.org isn't encouraged
08:00:59 <Gs30ng> well it goes to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page
08:01:09 <Gs30ng> when i try esolangs.org/wiki
08:01:22 <tokigun> Gs30ng: but http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page doesn't redirect
08:02:05 <Gs30ng> i still can see the main page of the wiki, clearly
08:02:48 <Gs30ng> source code conversation
08:03:05 <tokigun> how about hmm language? :)
08:03:16 <nooga> tokigun: that code looks good :)
08:03:25 <nooga> i mean the sadol.c
08:03:38 <Gs30ng> puzzlet, does esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page not work on your machine?
08:04:10 <Gs30ng> then i think there's no problem with using ko.esolangs.org
08:04:44 <Gs30ng> i'd like to ask the owner to give us that domain
08:05:05 <puzzlet> how about making the wiki first?
08:05:41 <Gs30ng> well we can progress the things like in multi-threaded machine
08:06:04 <Gs30ng> like, i look for domain, tokigun look for account...
08:06:29 <puzzlet> why are you guys planning making a wiki when there's no server to place it?
08:06:29 <Gs30ng> tokigun, didn't you say Daybreaker could support it?
08:06:42 <tokigun> Gs30ng: but i couldn't contact hime
08:06:55 <Gs30ng> puzzlet: Where theres a will, theres a way.
08:08:48 <Gs30ng> since wikipedia is in multiple languages, esolang wiki could be, i think
08:09:38 <Gs30ng> tokigun: hmm language is good but there's no new concept or difference from moo language
08:10:35 <tokigun> yeah... i have some concept but i'm not sure it can be really used.
08:17:03 <puzzlet> moo language, ook language...
08:18:27 <Gs30ng> well actual source code in it will be really funny
08:19:06 <puzzlet> we can make up "WAV language" where rises and falls of sound waves are converted to brainfuck
08:19:23 <Gs30ng> a code performs 99 bottles of bear in hmm language
08:19:32 <Gs30ng> hmm.... hmm.. Hmm........
08:20:04 <Gs30ng> it really makes me roll on the floor
08:21:18 <Gs30ng> oh my god! 99 grizzly bears!
08:23:47 <Gs30ng> ...in bottle, don't scare me at all.
08:24:29 <nooga> where are you from puzzlet ?
08:24:52 <Gs30ng> that's something we wonder for several years
08:25:01 <Gs30ng> but still nobody knows
08:25:48 <puzzlet> nooga, same from Gs30ng and tokigun
08:34:39 <nooga> brb -> switching to windows
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08:51:55 <jix> i'm grouped...
08:51:58 <jix> moin Gs30ng
09:07:36 <tokigun> nooga: hmm... i have a question about SADOL.
09:08:20 <tokigun> days ago you said "+2zblahblahblha.... is correct statement. right?
09:08:59 <nooga> even if it's a float it should be rounded ;p
09:09:11 <tokigun> then how about ~X1"+2#_0blahblahblahblah.... ?
09:09:43 <tokigun> then interpreter cannot determine an end of function definition
09:10:50 <nooga> then we shouldn't do such things ;p
09:11:41 <tokigun> nooga: then the number or arguments or characters should be represented using 0..9 and , s?
09:11:48 <jix> undefined behavior is your friend
09:11:58 <nooga> try to write ][-][-[][[>],[>]]]<[[>][[[] in brainfuck ;p
09:13:17 <jix> not tje BF program
09:13:26 <jix> hoodwink'd works
09:13:54 <jix> http://redhanded.hobix.com/ << this is a ruby blog of a truly esoteric guy
09:14:36 <jix> there you can get all informations you need about hoodwink'd (2 blahhg posts)
09:20:15 <tokigun> determining an end of function definition seems very hard, in my opinion.
09:21:44 <jix> haha it's just cooool
09:22:38 <tokigun> nooga: i just forgot whether function can be redefined or cannot. :S
09:24:01 <tokigun> already defined function can be redefined?
09:25:41 <nooga> in my implementation it can
09:27:46 <tokigun> then: function X is defined with 2 arguments, function Y is defined and uses function X, function X is redefined with 3 arguments. how about this case?
09:28:33 <Gs30ng> anybody understood him?
09:29:45 <Gs30ng> tokigun, you mean initially function X is defined to get 2 arguments? am i getting you?
09:30:25 <tokigun> as you know, my english is not good ;)
10:06:40 <nooga> tokigun: r u writing now? :P
10:12:46 <tokigun> nooga: i think the number of arguments (as 3 in $3abc) should be a number, not variable. agree?
10:13:46 <tokigun> (function redefinition makes a mess but it doesn't affect function defintion. it just changes an end of function.)
10:13:50 <Gs30ng> variable number of arguments will cause a lot of problems
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11:46:59 <Keymaker> ha! bought pizza so i finally got a new rubberband
11:50:15 <Keymaker> nooga: definitely interesting looking programming book x)
11:50:21 <Keymaker> much better than the ones with some animals
11:50:52 <jix> haha it's hard to type if you tie your right-hand-fingers together
11:51:17 <jix> its really hard
11:51:52 <jix> if you tourn your keyboard 180° its even harder!
11:53:42 <jix> i didi that and i dont f ind ,H-üöh+
11:53:42 <Keymaker> well, i won't bother with that :)
11:54:09 <jix> back to normal mode
12:11:07 <Gs30ng> we're trying to make an esolang wiki in Korean
12:38:50 <Keymaker> hmm.. no new mail.. no new mail.. no new mail.. all the three boxes fine. :p
12:43:42 <jix> Gs30ng: i can't read Korean
12:44:26 <Gs30ng> well since you are a non-english-native too, i thought this could inspire you in some way
12:44:48 <Gs30ng> like, esolang wiki in German?
12:54:08 <Keymaker> both of the german esoprogrammers would be happy :)
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13:21:49 <jix> moin Crest
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15:30:21 <Gs30ng> that's not a GLOBAL notice
15:30:28 <Gs30ng> because it's not afternoon here
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20:01:10 <calamari> hmm.. did the wiki just go down?
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20:40:11 <Aardwolf> Hey, is a language still considered esoteric if it contains high level commands like quickSort, getDeterminant, matrix multiplication, etc...? :)
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21:04:30 <GregorR> Aardwolf: C was esoteric until it started being used. "Esoteric" basically means that it's only interesting to a select group. If it makes it big, sorry, but it loses its esoteric status ;). Otherwise, you're safe.
21:06:47 <GregorR> It would be especially interesting if it /only/ provided high-level functions and required that operations such as addition and subtraction be carried out by taking advantage of side effects :P
21:09:48 <Aardwolf> It would be cool if someone made a language harder than malbolge
21:13:38 <WildHalcyon> I shall possibly endeavour to do so. Although Malbolge wasn't even necessarily designed to be TC, it just happened by chance
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21:41:55 <GregorR> Oh, btw, here's a language harder than malbolge: Every block separated by ; has to have the md5sum from a table of instructions + the instruction number.
21:42:06 <GregorR> The md5sums map to BF commands, for example.
21:44:22 <calamari> raven: doesn't look like I'll be entering this year.. lost motivation as I'd feared
21:45:57 <{^Raven^}> calamari: not sure i will be either but I'm gonna try - only restarted work on game today
21:47:10 <calamari> "2k" (10k) adventure game competition
21:47:52 <calamari> the idea is to build a text adventure in very little code
21:48:22 <{^Raven^}> using maximum of 2899 bytes code 8192 bytes data
21:49:13 <WildHalcyon> out of curiousity, what would be considered unreasonable?
21:49:53 * {^Raven^} just finished a 120 byte CCC1 decompressor
21:50:31 <{^Raven^}> a language that requires a huge runtime interpreter that you wrote especially for the purpose would be out
21:50:33 <calamari> lang for a system that isn't emulated / unavailable (can't test the game).. or using some special language you made that helps you cheat and get the size down.. probably cheating.
21:51:03 <calamari> what kinds of compression ratios you get with CCC1?
21:51:38 <calamari> Noting a-z and a few punctuations gives 8:5 compression for very little
21:54:04 <{^Raven^}> about 26% compression which gives me about an extra 2.8K of data
21:54:55 <Aardwolf> what if the difference between code and data isn't clear?
21:54:55 <{^Raven^}> I might add dictionary compression aswell to give me a better compression ratio
21:55:21 <calamari> aardwolf: then you don't mention it and nobody will know ;)
21:56:14 <calamari> but it may hurt you as far as descriptions goes.. need space for text
21:57:12 <{^Raven^}> but may add in functionality if you are running out of code space
21:57:43 <Aardwolf> try programming an intelligent text-adventure-creator that will create it's own endless adventure :D
21:58:03 <calamari> already have that.. called Moria :)
21:58:40 <calamari> nethack, larn, rogue, adom, etc
21:58:55 <{^Raven^}> or !Billion which has a game a night until the 27,399th centuary
21:59:35 <WildHalcyon> Im working on a good angband variant for my language... we'll see if it works
22:00:09 <WildHalcyon> I can't promise to keep it under 10K though
22:00:20 <calamari> the thing that always seemed lacking in roguelikes was multiplayer
22:01:04 <calamari> there have been some.. didn't really encourage cooperation though
22:01:38 <calamari> although they are closer to a text adventure :)
22:02:24 <calamari> I made a graphical interface for a mud once.. almost got banned for "cheating"
22:02:30 <GregorR> MUDs are very much like text adventure games.
22:02:47 <GregorR> Whereas rogues are predecessors to 2D RPGs.
22:03:05 <calamari> it was cool too, because you could type a town name and it'd figure out the shortest nnumber of moves to get you there
22:03:33 <calamari> probably why they didn't like it.. that and the filled out map
22:03:55 <GregorR> Most MUDs are fine with mapping nowadays *shrugs*
22:04:01 <jix> who is talking about compression?
22:04:30 <jix> a simple one is mtf with rice
22:04:42 <calamari> GregorR: btw.. see the log from a few days ago for some IRP ;)
22:04:42 <jix> or rice alike
22:05:19 <jix> mtf + huffman is even better
22:05:22 <{^Raven^}> jix: can the decompression routine be written in under 320 bytes of code?
22:05:28 <jix> {^Raven^}: depends
22:05:43 <jix> on language / computer
22:06:15 <{^Raven^}> jix: my ccc1 decoder is 120 bytes and my dictonary decoder is 240ish
22:06:25 <jix> {^Raven^}: what is ccc1?
22:06:38 <jix> i know many compressions but never saw ccc1
22:06:45 <GregorR> calamari: Can you be more specific?
22:07:06 <calamari> gregor: nope.. let me search the last few days for IRP
22:07:22 <jix> {^Raven^}: what language do you use?
22:07:29 <{^Raven^}> jix: common character compression gives about 8:5 on lowercase only text and 4:3 on mixed text
22:08:31 <jix> for what platforms there is an interpreter for it?
22:08:52 <calamari> raven: ahh so what I mentioned was ccc1? hehe cool
22:09:17 <{^Raven^}> RISC OS, BBC Micro (Addon), Windows and on Unix under Wine
22:09:34 <jix> i have none of them
22:09:36 <GregorR> Aha, found your response :)
22:10:00 <calamari> 5 bits = 32 characters - 26 (a-z), leaves 6 for punctuation. Can do auto first letter capitalization of sentences
22:10:13 <calamari> what day was it? I didn't find it :)
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22:10:48 <{^Raven^}> calamari: Mine will do anything in ASCII range 00-126 but is optimised for lowercase
22:11:06 <jix> i'm going to implement a mtf+rice-like compression in ruby
22:11:15 <{^Raven^}> calamari: 10 most common characters are encoded in 4 bits
22:11:20 <GregorR> Hey, I just realized something that IRP is especially good for!
22:11:47 <GregorR> Someone please write "This sentence is grammatically correct." in Español.
22:12:06 <GregorR> (/me thinks: the world's best online translator!)
22:12:42 <jix> i can't speak/write Español
22:15:34 <GregorR> Web translation was never easier ( ... for me :P)
22:16:28 <jix> (100% non error-free translation to korean:) 이 형은 문법적으로 정확하다. please tell me what i wrote!
22:16:48 <calamari> babelfish says: "that phrase is correct grammarly"
22:17:43 <calamari> jix: you wrote: i009D' i00980095i.. etc ;)
22:18:02 <calamari> WildHalcyon: yeah I thin kyou got it right
22:18:32 <WildHalcyon> I may not speak GREAT spanish, but I know how to use my dictionary right ;-)
22:18:43 <calamari> wonder why it said "that" instead of "this"
22:19:46 <GregorR> I'm beginning to lose confidence in this translation program :P
22:20:04 <WildHalcyon> It should be esta frase es correcto gramaticalmente
22:21:22 <calamari> Someone please tell me if my program halts.. (just kidding) ;)
22:21:31 <Aardwolf> My font is so screwed up, I see squares with 4 small hex numbers in each square, instead of korean characters
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22:22:15 <GregorR> {^Raven^}: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/IRP
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22:22:54 <jix> {^Raven^}: is there any chance i can run your programs on my mac ppc computer?
22:24:48 <{^Raven^}> jix: probably not unless you have Windows or RISC OS emulator available
22:25:32 <GregorR> Or you could compile from source. Oh, wait, NEVER MIND.
22:25:51 <jix> {^Raven^}: hmm..
22:26:05 <jix> RISC OS runs on arm based computer right?
22:26:56 <{^Raven^}> jix: yeah. there's lots of emulators available Red Squirrel is a good free (Windows) one
22:27:10 <Aardwolf> I made a brainfuck clone called brainloller, it's exactly the same as brainfuck except that the commands are read from pixels of a png file and you can make 90 degree turns so that you can give the code certain shapes in the image. It's possible to put brainfuck code hidden in a picture. Is it worth publishing this?
22:28:51 <calamari> aardwolf: one thing I managed to do with Microsoft BMP bitmaps is embed asm code into the palette that ran the interpreter. Maybe you can do something similar so it can be an executable :)
22:29:49 <calamari> I'd try it with JPg, but I never really studied the format
22:31:48 <Aardwolf> jpg is lossy, impossible to put code in that
22:31:52 <Aardwolf> I uploaded it here: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/
22:31:59 <Aardwolf> the explanation is in main.cpp
22:32:40 <Aardwolf> haha a BMP executable, that sounds ownage :)
22:34:47 <GregorR> If you really, /really/ understood the compression format, you could put code in a lossy image format.
22:35:24 <GregorR> Or you could make gigantic 100% quality jpegs 8-D
22:36:21 <Aardwolf> Well now you can compress your brainfuck code in pngs :D
22:39:12 <jix> Aardwolf: you can put code in jpeg
22:39:24 <jix> by modifying the lower bit of the encoded frequencies
22:39:52 <jix> png is cool
22:41:25 <Aardwolf> I'll port some brainfuck program to brainloller so that there's at least an example
22:46:21 <jix> mandelbrot!
22:46:50 <jix> i know someone who knows someone who knows mandelbrot!
22:46:55 <GregorR> Good because it's using graphics to represent text code that uses text to represent graphical output :)
22:47:24 <jix> GregorR: what?
22:48:10 <GregorR> That you know someone who knows someone who knows Mandelbrot.
22:48:16 <GregorR> Though I guess he is not a deity, and does exist :P
22:50:01 <jix> GregorR: it's true!
22:51:22 <jix> the one who knows mandelbrot is heinz-otto peitgen
22:51:32 <jix> he works at the university of bremen
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23:19:27 <Aardwolf> Fixed a bug and made hello.png for brainloller
23:24:21 <WildHalcyon> You might be able to do it with lossless wavelet compression. Harr wavelets would be the easiest...
23:26:38 <WildHalcyon> For my senior design project as a EE major, I made an audio watermarking program. I lost the code, but its not hard to redevelop. You could turn that to a bf encoder as well.
23:27:07 <Aardwolf> it can be hidden in anything :D
23:27:35 <WildHalcyon> Well, brainloller couldn't be (90 degree turns are.. tricky), but bf could.
23:28:52 <Aardwolf> the 90 degree turns can safely be ignored when converting from brainloller back to 1D, all they do is tell where the next code will be, they don't change anything to the behaviour
23:29:26 <WildHalcyon> Okay, well that doesn't change much at least
23:36:13 <kipple> hmm. the wiki seems to be down
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04:22:48 <tokigun> GregorR: "이 문장은 문법적으로 올바르다." is Korean translation of "This sentence is grammatically correct.", maybe ;)
04:28:42 <GregorR> BTW, IDIA (my mud engine) is in subversion now 8-D
04:33:05 <GregorR> http://subversion.tigris.org/
04:33:09 <tokigun> i've used cvs for years but i'm not familiar to subversion ;)
04:33:29 <GregorR> It has a few features nicer than CVS, and at least one that I think is worse *shrugs*
04:35:14 <int-e> what's the worse one *is curious*?
04:35:42 * int-e is a bit unhappy that it doesn't update the local revision number on commit ...
04:36:09 * int-e is very happy about global revision numbers though
04:39:10 <GregorR> I don't like how subversion handles branches.
04:39:24 <int-e> hmm. I've yet to try that.
04:39:26 <GregorR> I'm not sure whether I'm just not used to it or I honestly dislike it, however.
04:40:13 <GregorR> Anyway, if anybody wants to give it a whirl, 'svn co svn://idia.codu.org/IDIA/idia/trunk idia'
04:40:39 <GregorR> (Managed to mooch SVN hosting from a friend :P)
04:41:40 <int-e> I think I'm a too big fan of lpmuds to try that
04:43:00 <GregorR> IDIA is more Diku/MERC/ROM/SMAUG/Circle monolithic style, not "here's an interpreter have fun" style.
04:44:50 <int-e> I like a central event queue though (I've thought of that before but never coded it. It's strange noone seems to do that.)
04:45:28 * calamari_ is installing windows 2003 again :(
04:46:42 <calamari_> but.. at least itis being done in qemu so I can still use my computer :)
04:47:01 <int-e> for example I've yet to find a mud interpreter (lpmud similar) that has priority queues as a builtin datatype.
04:47:10 <int-e> it seems to be so obvious.
04:47:11 <GregorR> int-e: I really can't stand the heartbeat style.
04:47:29 <GregorR> It's better on SMAUG with a .25 second heartbeat, but still awful :P
04:47:46 <int-e> ok, the backend cycle structure is quite limiting indeed
04:48:22 <GregorR> Anyway, I don't care if anybody cares about IDIA, I'm just writing it for kicks *shrugs*
04:52:57 <calamari_> I know you're talking about muds.. but it'd be really cool to have a multiplayer roguelike where changes to the world were remembered, talking was limited by distance (too far away, can't hear), there were different languages for different races (even if random chars).. wish I could get motivated to stick to one project, lol
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07:18:59 <GregorR> I just instantiated my first object in IDIA 8-D
07:19:09 <GregorR> (That is, within the game itself, not in the code)
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10:58:22 <jix> {^Raven^}: i have a risc os running on a emulator
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13:48:35 <Aardwolf> Check out the description of my new language in the works: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Deltaplex
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14:25:58 <Gs30ng> well, ok, here's the thing:
14:26:23 <Gs30ng> is there any symbol or emblem for esolang?
14:27:26 <Gs30ng> i mean, like, a penguin represents Linux, and an apple represents Mac or stuffs from Apple, Inc.
14:28:10 <Gs30ng> i think it'll be great if we got a symbol of esolang
14:31:05 <Gs30ng> thanks. we can have some time of discussion for this.
14:31:28 <Aardwolf> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/skins/common/images/wiki.png
14:31:50 <Gs30ng> hmm. that's default logo of MediaWiki
14:32:48 <Gs30ng> i've been thinking about the symbol thing but couldn't get any good idea
14:33:18 <Aardwolf> what kind of symbol could represent programming languages
14:33:53 <Gs30ng> there are too many sort of esolang, and it seems the one symbol including them all can't exist
14:34:42 <Gs30ng> Aardwolf is right. we don't even have any symbol for *programming language*
14:34:51 <int-e> try the set of all sets ...
14:34:58 * int-e disappears in a puff of logic
14:35:33 <Gs30ng> maybe, like linux or apple, something that is not related to programming languages could be
14:35:48 <Gs30ng> linux is no penguin-like
14:37:11 <Gs30ng> like esoteric animals or foods...
14:37:43 <Gs30ng> maybe some geometric figures..
14:38:04 <Aardwolf> http://home.hccnet.nl/van.lierop/parahulp/foto/krachtdieren/gordeldier.jpg
14:38:05 <Gs30ng> or something represents the canoncial esolangs like bf
14:38:13 <Aardwolf> that's a weird animal, but I don't know it's name in english
14:38:48 <kipple> there has been some discussions here about a logo before
14:39:07 <kipple> I suggested the Dodo bird as a mascot :)
14:40:37 <Aardwolf> Now that some people are active here, please check out my new language in the world: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Deltaplex
14:41:20 <kipple> I also made some logo suggestions for the wiki based on the standard mediawiki logo and brainfuck: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/logos.html
14:41:24 <Gs30ng> but, since there's no dodo now, can sound like "All the esolang is dead as a dodo!!!"
14:41:55 <kipple> Yeah, it's not easy to find an animal that fits, though...
14:42:58 <Gs30ng> kipple, your bf logo idea is, just, great
14:43:42 <Gs30ng> i haven't thought that mediawiki logo could be like bf source code
14:44:37 <kipple> Aardwolf: looks interesting. we need more high-level esolangs :)
14:44:59 <Aardwolf> My hope is that it'll be possible to make a 3D shooter in it ;)
14:45:16 <kipple> haha. that would be great
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14:48:01 <Gs30ng> i love the idea of kipple. one vote for it here
14:49:08 <Gs30ng> but maybe some guys think it is not fit for a symbol of esolang... it represents only bf and there's a lot of non-bf-like esolangs
14:49:40 <kipple> It was meant as a symbol for the Wiki, not for esolangs in general
14:51:06 <Gs30ng> a homage for Alan Turing could work
14:54:35 <Gs30ng> he is often considered the father of modern computer science but also did a critical part for esolang world
14:54:49 <jix> i think it should be a thing that no other use as logo
14:54:55 <kipple> did he do anything esoteric?
14:55:15 <jix> using an animal is not esoteric
14:55:24 <jix> too many things have animals as logo
14:55:41 <kipple> There were some attempts of making a Piet program/logo earlier, but I don't remember how it went
14:56:01 <Gs30ng> but what if we use http://home.hccnet.nl/van.lierop/parahulp/foto/krachtdieren/gordeldier.jpg
14:56:11 <Gs30ng> that seems esoteric enough
14:56:19 <WildHalcyon> Im not convinced that the armadillo is really that esoteric...
14:56:29 <jix> we could make up an animal out of many different animals
14:56:44 <Gs30ng> that is called armadillo. i didn't know that
14:57:01 <Gs30ng> making a virtual animal is also good idea
14:57:01 <jix> the most esoteric parts of the most esoteric animals from the most esoteric.. uhm..
14:57:51 <Gs30ng> well i think that kind of animal would scare people
14:58:00 <jix> a fish with butterfly wings and....
14:58:34 <jix> a bird head
14:58:53 <jix> nothing human imo
14:59:14 <Gs30ng> all the esolangs are made by human
14:59:31 <jix> yes but they look like they were made by aliens ^^
15:00:09 <WildHalcyon> Aliens familiar with ascii... well.. sort of familiar with it I guess
15:00:24 <Gs30ng> you said "most esoteric animals"... then butterfly wings or bird head is disqualified
15:00:35 <Gs30ng> let's name some more esoteric animals
15:00:51 <WildHalcyon> aliens who have heard of ascii and thought it was a form of interpretive dance
15:01:45 <Gs30ng> ...wait. then the logo should be really complicated
15:01:56 <Gs30ng> we can't make a small size of logo then
15:01:57 <WildHalcyon> Im not sure that my namesake quite envisions the esoteric mantra
15:02:01 <jix> the logo should be generated by a computer program!
15:02:31 <jix> no MS Paint generates no images
15:02:36 <Gs30ng> Glitch image could work
15:02:43 <jix> NS Paint's is a tool that allows humans to generate images
15:03:27 <Gs30ng> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Glitch_cityscrnshot.jpg
15:03:32 <Gs30ng> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch
15:04:12 <WildHalcyon> but esolangs arent really glitches, are they?
15:04:22 <WildHalcyon> We dont want folks saying "Haha.. those esolangs.. something's WRONG with them"
15:04:26 <kipple> hehe. some might argue they are ;)
15:04:52 <Gs30ng> well most of esolang codes are seem glitches
15:05:15 <kipple> the logo could just be a bunch of random ASCII noise
15:05:39 <kipple> that would represent quite a lot of esolangs ;)
15:05:46 <Gs30ng> wait. i think the logo should be static
15:06:06 <Gs30ng> like, everybody can make different version of esolang logo, is not good
15:06:22 <kipple> sure. I didn't mean it should be dynamic
15:06:42 <Gs30ng> but random ASCII noise seems like that
15:07:22 <kipple> you don't have to generate it more than once
15:07:42 <jix> use a really complex generating function
15:07:52 <Gs30ng> the logo should be easy to recognize, like, whenever we see that we can tell there's something related to esolang
15:08:04 <Gs30ng> random ASCII noises are not.
15:11:59 <Gs30ng> i'd rather vote for kipple's wiki bf logo.
15:12:01 <Gs30ng> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/logos.html
15:13:46 <Gs30ng> kipple, are those logos all public domain?
15:16:02 <kipple> the one with the flower possibly has some restrictions as I took it from the mediawiki logo
15:16:53 <Gs30ng> well i think mediawiki things are all PD... i'll look up for it
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15:21:49 <kipple> maybe we should make a page in the wiki about the logo issue, so more people would contribute
16:09:21 <jix> http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3286/nqr1kx.png sort of random but if you see it you can recognize it
16:09:58 <Gs30ng> good, but too hard to simplify
16:11:44 <jix> its HSL[(y^2+x^3)/20000,Cos[x*y/300]/3+0.5,Sec[x*y/10]/3+0.5] for x,y = 0..127
16:35:15 <Gs30ng> i'm trying to draw a picture which is literally "Brainfuck", but i have no idea to express the word f*ck.
16:36:16 <jix> i have a not-well-suited idea *g*
16:36:29 <jix> but brainfuck isn't the only esolang
16:36:41 <jix> i'm against a brainfuck specific logo
16:36:50 <Gs30ng> most of esolangs f*ck our brain
16:37:22 <Gs30ng> that's why i'm trying to make that sort of logo
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18:12:05 <nooga> kipple: i like the kipple language
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18:27:31 <nooga> tokigun: say that you've finished it
18:28:59 <nooga> but he'll read the log ;p
18:29:43 <Gs30ng> and you mean his sadol interpreter, right?
18:30:38 <nooga> now im reading about mono and .NET stuff
18:30:50 <nooga> i plan to make a SADOL compiler
18:31:28 <kipple> what's this sadol language? there is no article in the wiki
18:31:40 <Gs30ng> you should check the log
18:31:54 <kipple> is there a spec or something somewhere?
18:32:08 <Gs30ng> nooga will give you it
18:32:52 <nooga> kipple: http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/ but be warned, my english sucks ;p
18:33:00 <kipple> found some links in the logs. but they don't work
18:33:19 <kipple> that link doesn't work for me :(
18:33:26 <Gs30ng> nooga, i think the language is not so sadistic
18:33:58 <Gs30ng> langs like Malbolge is sadistic, but your lang isn't
18:34:03 <nooga> try to write a bigger program ;p
18:34:13 <nooga> you can get lost any time
18:34:24 <kipple> can't connect to server http://nooga.int.pl
18:34:27 <nooga> lol -> http://www.hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=7
18:34:41 <jix> but you can do structured programming in it
18:34:58 <Gs30ng> in Malbolge, it took several years to make first program in it
18:35:05 <kipple> now it suddenly works... strange
18:35:21 <nooga> kipple: this is private server
18:35:47 <Gs30ng> compared to some langs that 'designed to be hard', sadol isn't sadistic, actually
18:36:00 <nooga> then think about another name ;p
18:36:13 <nooga> because i dont know ;p
18:36:24 <kipple> LOL: http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/sadol.jpg
18:37:24 <kipple> Gs30ng: I saw in the logs that you're looking for the owner of the esolangs.org doman
18:37:41 <nooga> many ppl like this image
18:37:51 <Gs30ng> that image is why we are paying so much attention on sadol
18:38:28 <kipple> I can't remember who it is, but it is someone here on #esoteric
18:41:53 <Gs30ng> we've just reserved that problem, because we don't have any idea about it's necessity. maybe we can just give up to make Korean esolang wiki
18:42:45 <Gs30ng> really few people know about esolang here
18:42:57 <kipple> that goes for everywhere
18:43:12 <Aardwolf> how many people know about esoteric languages in general? :p
18:43:56 <Gs30ng> i mean, like, there's about 48 million people in Korea, but like 10~20 people have heard about esolang
18:44:36 <Aardwolf> maybe I'm the only one from belgium :D
18:44:44 <nooga> there are 36 mln people
18:45:01 <nooga> and maybe 2000 heard about an esolang
18:45:20 <nooga> and i think something abt 500 ppl know one
18:47:13 <Gs30ng> in Korea, that 10~20 people are aware of esolang because of Aheui, http://puzzlet.org/puzzlet/%EC%95%84%ED%9D%AC~Specification
18:47:50 <Aardwolf> I have no idea how many people in belgium know, how the heck do you count that
18:50:40 <Gs30ng> puzzlet there, the author of Aheui, is the most contributor of korean esolang society
18:51:37 <Gs30ng> i guess if we just pick out the ones who know Aheui out of korea, there will be no esolang-aware guy left
18:52:22 <Gs30ng> and that's why i and tokigun thought korean esolang wiki is currently not needed
18:53:05 <nooga> haha -> http://www.hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=36
18:53:11 <kipple> I know there is at least one other norwegian guy (which I've actually met in a totally unrelated setting) but probably not many more
18:55:17 <kipple> I've added a short stub article on SADOL in the wiki, but it could use some more meat...
18:55:21 <jix> i tell everyone i know about them
18:55:54 <jix> and in my city there are at least 2 that know brainfuck (including me)
18:56:13 <jix> with know i mean can program in it
18:56:36 <Gs30ng> well i can't program in bf
18:56:46 <Gs30ng> i don't actually understand [ and ]
18:57:49 <kipple> it's a while loop that repeats as long as the value at the current memory address is not zero
18:59:22 <Gs30ng> then, in a code like [++++], is ++++ not executed?
19:01:00 <Gs30ng> or should i do +[++++] if i want to skip ++++?
19:03:03 <kipple> if you do +[++++] the ++++ will be executed unless the current memory location is -1 at the start
19:03:18 <Gs30ng> then [++++] skips ++++?
19:03:59 <kipple> provided that current memory cell is 0 (which they all are when the program starts)
19:07:39 <WildHalcyon> but assuming you're on the edge of the tape, you could always go: >+++[<++++>]
19:08:41 <Gs30ng> ok... if the current cell is zero and i meet [, then i jump to next ], right?
19:09:46 <kipple> and if the current cell is non-zero and you meet ] you jump back to the corresponding [
19:10:22 <Gs30ng> so, whenever the current cell is zero and i meat [ or ], i jump. right?
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19:20:44 <kipple> no, you jump on ] when the current cell is NOT zero
19:21:28 <Gs30ng> uhm... didn't you say [++++] skips ++++?
19:21:49 <kipple> yes. because the first [ jumps past the ]
19:23:01 <Gs30ng> i don't really understand what 'jump on' means
19:23:30 <Gs30ng> you mean if the currrent cell is non-zero and i meet ] then i jump?
19:23:42 <Gs30ng> or if the currrent cell is non-zero and i meet [ then i jump?
19:24:55 <kipple> [++++] in pseudo code:
19:24:56 <kipple> while (current cell is not 0) add 4 to current cell
19:41:35 <WildHalcyon> Hmm, Ive been link hopping from that comic and came across a photo taken by Wouter. Cool!
19:43:09 <WildHalcyon> I think if anyone should be the esolang mascot, it should be Wouter. In an armadillo costume.
19:43:38 <Gs30ng> Wouter the author of FALSE?
19:43:46 <Gs30ng> i should look up wikipedia
19:45:51 <Gs30ng> hmm. wikipedia says FALSE inspired the esolang stuffs
19:46:04 <kipple> it was the main inspiration for brainfuck I think
19:47:55 <Aardwolf> anyone ever saw this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Esoteric_programming_language_related/Detail
19:49:44 <kipple> yes. it was voted down
19:50:07 <kipple> it's one of the reasons we started our own wiki though
19:50:24 <Aardwolf> I'm glad it got started, much more freedom than on wikipedia
19:50:40 <kipple> becuase I kind of agree that most of the esolangs does not belong in the wikipedia
19:51:28 <Aardwolf> well, I'm probably not going to add my next languages to wikipedia anymore, since there's esolang now anyway
19:51:52 <Gs30ng> here it's 4 o'clock in the morning
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19:52:31 <kipple> nighttime is hacking time ;)
19:53:23 <kipple> I'm currently working from home as a programmer, and have adopted the night shift
19:54:12 <kipple> the problem with working from home is that there are so many distractions....
19:54:50 <Aardwolf> distractions for me are patiance, mine sweeper and the internet :s
19:57:59 <kipple> IRC is of course a common distraction
19:59:04 <WildHalcyon> Gah, that vote for deletion page is driving me up the wall. One guy's entire vote consists of finding all google pages on a language that dont mention wikipedia and thefreedictionary
19:59:37 <Aardwolf> yeah I know, and he searched with quotes
19:59:43 <Aardwolf> with programming language behind the name
20:00:51 <WildHalcyon> He didnt even care about historical significance in a more obscure light. Like lineage, uniqueness, etc.
20:16:12 <WildHalcyon> Ah well. The languages are esoteric. Dealing with the lack of knowledge is bound to bring some problems.
20:18:17 <Aardwolf> Someone put the TAXI programming language on wikipedia, and it got deleted because someone thought it was advertising for a game
20:19:13 <WildHalcyon> I didnt think it was a great language, so I get to laugh a lot at that.
20:21:04 <WildHalcyon> I guess my lack of enthusiasm was due to the fact that I thought the language had a more mathematical construct.. like being based on Taxicab Geometry
20:26:47 <Aardwolf> AEGH!!!! so many compiler errors
20:31:04 <cpressey> esolangs and wikipedia just don't mix.
20:32:20 <Aardwolf> there are weirder things that that on wikipedia
20:32:37 <Aardwolf> just today I encountered an article devoted to Glich City, which is a bug in some pokemon game
20:33:23 <kipple> I like that the wikipedia contains that kind of info
20:33:58 <Aardwolf> Hello world program in esoteric languages <--- do we have something like this in esolang?
20:34:27 <kipple> feel free to make it so
20:34:50 <kipple> if you make a page, contributions will probably come
20:35:01 <Aardwolf> I'll add a few and let the rest come :)
20:37:46 <cpressey> Aardwolf: weird, perhaps, but in a game series that has sold something like 100 million copies...
20:39:58 <cpressey> the thing that gets me the most about wikipedia is the inherent bias towards pop/internet culture
20:42:57 <Aardwolf> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages <--- is it possible to get the code snippets in colored tables, like here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages
20:50:00 <WildHalcyon> hehehe... I see wierd though. I never knew someone wrote Hello World in Wierd.
20:50:30 <kipple> I don't get the colored tables either....
20:51:16 <Aardwolf> I mean the grey box in which the code is drawn, as opposed to a white background
20:51:39 <kipple> but your page looks exactly the same as the wikipedia page
20:52:11 <Aardwolf> weird, I see a grey box behind the code snippets in wikipedia, a grey box with a blue dotted border around it
20:52:17 <Aardwolf> oh well it's not that important
20:52:27 <kipple> yes. And I see the same in the esolang wiki
20:52:56 <kipple> perhaps because you are not using the same skin on esolang as me (I use the MonoBook skin)
20:53:09 <Aardwolf> I see it against a white background
20:53:24 <kipple> change skin to monobook.
20:53:31 <kipple> the default one looks awful IMHO
20:54:09 <kipple> Yeah, we should petition Graue to change it
20:54:33 <kipple> Graue: If you read the logs, I vote for changing the default skin to MonoBook
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21:00:04 <nooga> hey, guys -> http://www.regedit.risp.pl/BDSM/
21:00:16 <nooga> BDSM -> Badly Developed SADOL Machine
21:00:24 <nooga> a Complete implementation
21:04:56 <nooga> my friend wrote it in a secret
21:07:38 <nooga> g2g, this interpreter is complete
21:07:46 <nooga> you may play if you want
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21:17:58 <WildHalcyon> Im out of here as well. I have an exciting 6 hours of the worst job ever to look forward to
21:18:29 <kipple> worst job ever? now I'm curious
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21:57:30 <calamari> it's nice to know that reading the log can cause Mozilla to crash my entire login session :)
21:59:27 <calamari> Graue: also a vote for Monobook as the default
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23:43:43 <Aardwolf> if a language can emulate brainfuck, it's turing complete, right?
23:57:58 <calamari> can it emulate bf with unbounded memory?
23:58:35 <calamari> (not talking about a specific implementation of the language, just theoretically)
23:59:08 <Aardwolf> if it has unbounded memory, it can emulate bf with unbounded memory
23:59:34 <calamari> that's what I was getting at :)
00:00:09 <calamari> was learning about DFA's today. Deterministic Finite Automata. Pretty cool
00:00:09 <Aardwolf> I typed something here: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Gammaplex, I hope I didn't mess things up too much! But if that is correct, is it turing complete?
00:01:29 <calamari> not familiar with the language
00:01:46 <lament> Aardwolf: what is "emulate"?
00:02:00 <Aardwolf> in this case, "do the same as" :)
00:02:09 <lament> Aardwolf: that doesn't explain it at all
00:02:28 <lament> if a language can do the same as brainfuck, it must be some sort of superset
00:03:19 <Aardwolf> I added the turing complete category to this language because I'm pretty sure it's turing complete, but I'm not a professional. Should I remove the category again?
00:03:30 <calamari> not necessarily.. there are workable subsets of bf
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00:15:39 <kipple> from my brief look at it I'd say it's Turing Complete, but I'm no expert on the subject either
00:19:39 <kipple> if you want real proof I suggest writing a bf interpreter (something every new lang should have)
00:21:47 <lament> note that a bf interpreter does not necessarily prove turing-completeness
00:21:59 <lament> suppose my language has only one command:
00:22:12 <lament> "read from stdin and execute as a brainfuck program"
00:22:18 <lament> is it turing-complete? not really
00:22:46 <lament> it can't even add 2 and 2
00:22:49 <lament> or write "hello world"
00:22:57 <lament> all it can do is execute brainfuck programs
00:23:41 <lament> i can't write a program expressing any possible computation in this language
00:23:58 <lament> i can only write one program at all :)
00:24:06 <kipple> is isn't a programming language at all, so it is a bit irrelevant whether or not it is TC
00:24:39 <kipple> well, then we disagree... :)
00:24:53 <kipple> it's not a language it is an interpreter IMHO
00:25:40 <lament> i can write an interreter or a compiler for this language
00:25:54 <lament> (very very quickly :) )
00:26:19 <lament> calamari: when considering turing-completess, we don't even care about IO
00:26:20 <calamari> you'd have to implement bf in order to implement the language
00:26:34 <lament> IO is irrelevant to turing-completeness
00:26:48 <calamari> lament: in this case IO is being used to transmit the program, so it is relevant
00:27:27 <calamari> this is very interesting.. but.. things to do :)
00:27:41 <kipple> whether the program is read from memory or stdin should be pretty much the same
00:27:49 <lament> but the program is not read from stdin
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00:28:02 <lament> suppose the command that reads and executes is "foo"
00:29:56 <lament> let's call the command B
00:30:04 <lament> and insert it into HQ9+
00:30:14 <lament> so that it's not the only command :)
00:30:36 <kipple> well HQ9+ is not a programming language etiher, in my book....
00:31:53 <kipple> but, of course, there doesn't exist a real definition of what a programming language actually _is_...
00:32:07 <kipple> because you cannot program with it
00:32:38 <lament> you can write hello world
00:32:46 <kipple> I can do that in word as well
00:33:23 <kipple> do you consider the key combinations required to program your VCR a programming language?
00:34:19 <calamari> kipple: that's a good example to help me study.. I should model that as a DFA
00:35:24 <calamari> Deterministic Finite Automaton
00:36:21 <calamari> M = (Q, sigma, delta, q, F). Where:
00:37:26 <calamari> M = machine, Q= finite set of states, sigma=alphabet (set of characters), delta: transition function Q x sigma->Q, q:start state, F: set of accepting states
00:37:51 <kipple> I'll take your word for it ;)
00:38:24 <calamari> you can perform constant memory computations with this type of machine
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03:54:25 <calamari> dunno.. I should see how that whole HQ9B+ thing went :)
04:00:07 <WildHalcyon> That discussion seemed to... I dunno. Evaporate.
04:17:51 <WildHalcyon> Im still fiddling with a treap-based language
04:17:58 <WildHalcyon> Trying to get something thats fairly non-deterministic
04:18:44 <WildHalcyon> Yeah, its a type of binary tree with some heap properties
04:22:02 <WildHalcyon> Im not sure if that would work, but it might be interesting
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04:26:07 <WildHalcyon> Meh... that might not actually work so great. Im actually looking for an underlying data structure to represent a "bag"
04:26:55 <WildHalcyon> The language has several (but limited) variables - maybe A-F registers, and the rest of memory is a "bag" of other junk.
04:27:44 <kipple> what do you mean by "bag"? a datastructure where you only get a random node when you access?
04:30:29 <kipple> true random access memory in other words ;)
04:31:55 <WildHalcyon> I thought I might try to make something workable with it by including bags-of-bags
04:36:18 <WildHalcyon> You could store a sort of ID number with the data in the bag-bag and then the data. I dunno... maybe not
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06:29:44 <Gs30ng> emulating bf and proving tc. interesting topic.
06:33:03 <Gs30ng> i guess we should define IO things clearly
06:33:39 <Gs30ng> turing machine itself has IO in a sense
06:34:35 <Gs30ng> even bf without . and , has IO in a sense
06:35:29 <Gs30ng> we can start the bf program with some processed tape
06:35:47 <Gs30ng> and can consider that the result tape is output
06:46:19 <Gs30ng> if it is forbidden to do such things on TM or BF, then church turing thesis is a joke. how can we do something with a machine if can't input anything to it or make it output anything?
06:46:49 <Gs30ng> in this point of view, i think lament is wrong in a sense
06:47:21 <GregorR> A true turing machine contains the entire "input" stream on the tape beforehand, and leaves the "output" stream on the tape.
06:48:48 <Gs30ng> and thus it means we can decide what to input
06:49:16 <Gs30ng> so lament's language with only B command is turing-complete, in my opinion
06:50:25 <Gs30ng> because we can decide what the B command will get and interpret
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09:21:38 <nooga> rosemary: only esolangs geeks here :)
09:21:41 <rosemary> desired result + piqued curiosity
09:22:08 <rosemary> nooga - well I am niether esolang nor geek!
09:22:13 <calamari_> if you are female, you may very well be the first ever to be in this chatroom :)
09:22:52 <rosemary> as I commented my curiosity was piqued
09:23:31 <rosemary> from a linux channel when someone mentioned it
09:23:47 <nooga> my / key doesn't work sometime
09:25:47 <rosemary> well - if this is some male thing, then I'm going elsewhere
09:26:04 <calamari_> it's for esoteric programming languages
09:26:56 <calamari_> here is your nick in bf: ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>++++++++><<<<-]>++.>>-.<<+.>+++.>--.<----.<-.+++++++.
09:27:02 <rosemary> okay ... well I do not understand about programming - just wish I had gotten into computers a decade earlier
09:28:23 <calamari_> we discuss weird ways of programming here.. so it's new to us as well when a new language is released
09:29:38 <rosemary> for a moment a I wondered if I had accidentally wandered into some wierd male channel!
09:30:25 <calamari_> rosemary: if you want to run that program there is an online interpreter here: http://koti.mbnet.fi/villes/php/bf.php
09:31:02 <Gs30ng> the channel is esoteric, but not for males only, afaik
09:31:22 <calamari_> copy that mess into the code box and click Run
09:31:51 <calamari_> of course not.. was only a joke :)
09:32:15 <puzzlet> esoteric programmers unite!
09:33:03 <rosemary> doubt I'll ever be a programmer - can copy basic scripts is all :-)
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09:33:52 <calamari_> Keymaker: you just missed an historic event, lol
09:35:22 <puzzlet> did i mention i've introduced esoteric languages in 1st Alternative Language Festival in Korea? http://altlang.org/
09:35:42 <Gs30ng> i don't even know any female programmer
09:36:19 <Gs30ng> and a female esolang programmer, just sounds like a hoax
09:37:42 <Gs30ng> puzzlet, i googled, and it was Vannevar Bush
09:37:44 <puzzlet> what, vannevar bush is male?
09:38:12 <puzzlet> English names are confusing
09:39:36 <Gs30ng> i always confuse puzzlet and fuzzlet
09:40:49 <calamari_> puzzlet: didn't realize you were in #mediawiki
09:40:58 <Keymaker> about the esolang logo discussion;
09:41:10 <Keymaker> i once drew couple of eso dodos
09:41:16 <Keymaker> (as probably someone remembers)
09:41:26 <calamari_> puzzlet: I was asking about the Korean esowiki
09:41:29 <Keymaker> i think the kipple's dodo idea was good
09:41:41 <calamari_> puzzlet: but it seems that to do it there have to be two different wikis
09:42:00 <Keymaker> another idea for logo could be picture of dominatrix, inspired by that sadol book.
09:43:39 <puzzlet> but contributors to the Korean wiki would be not more than 3 or 4 people
09:44:28 <puzzlet> what if the wiki eventually becomes, like forgotten?
09:45:36 <Gs30ng> in wikipedia same problem occurs
09:45:39 <puzzlet> Korean wiki should be incorporated with the English wiki in some ways
09:46:25 <puzzlet> like using MediaWiki, bonded with the English wiki by interwiki links
09:47:26 <puzzlet> i've heard it from Gs30ng, but i think MoinMoin is not likely in this case.
09:47:30 <Keymaker> oh, and the main reason i came to visit the channel this time: i just made a new quine in brainfuck, 1606 instructions. my current record, that can be found at bf-hacks.org) is 933. but i tried a bit new stuff in this new one, so it might be possible that i break my current record, when i optimize this new quine. you see, this new one has no optimization..
09:52:07 <calamari_> hmm weird.. win2003 isn't telling me to reactivate. Maybe that's only an XP thing
09:53:22 <calamari_> its sooo slow.. 98 is so much faster hehe
09:56:49 <nooga> 98 runs on my 486 laptop
09:57:12 <nooga> ...but debian 3 woody runs too
09:57:19 <calamari_> I have 95 on my 486/100.. 16mb ram
09:57:21 <nooga> and does it faster
09:58:42 <calamari_> would run 3.1 on it, but 3.1 networking support is horrible
10:05:47 <Keymaker> btw, can't come here for a while, i'm going to hiking for three days
10:05:59 <Keymaker> a school course i selected for some reason.. x9
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10:08:43 <calamari_> wow, glad I'm not superstitious :)
10:09:43 <calamari_> my adventure game was about a hiker stranded in mountain woods for 3 days and having to make their way off alive
10:13:24 <Gs30ng> and you added irc connecting stuffs in that game
10:13:48 <Gs30ng> so Keymaker was a program
10:14:17 <calamari_> oh, haha.. I hope Keymaker doesn't get attacked by a bear and stuck in the woods ;)
10:15:07 <calamari_> not sure why, but I never was able to get motivated after my summer classes. burnt out or something
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13:53:22 <nooga> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol <- updated ;p
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14:39:40 <tokigun> nooga: ahhmmmm... i'm working on SADOL implementation
14:40:02 <tokigun> i've seen BDSM code. freaky naming.. my...
14:42:51 <nooga> BDSM is not compliant
14:43:07 <nooga> he worked on that in secret
14:43:20 <nooga> so he didn't asked me about a few things
14:43:28 <nooga> like a variable scope
14:43:49 <nooga> now i try to describe it all
14:47:03 <nooga> tokigun: why the naming is freaky?
14:47:27 <tokigun> think original meaning of BDSM... :)
14:52:33 <tokigun> puzzlet: no implementation
14:52:37 <tokigun> nooga: ~q1:i0@<i,239!?-#_0,242##_0i#_0q",239~q1:i0@<i,239!?-#_0,242##_0i#_0q",239*
14:52:52 <tokigun> maybe quine without list P...
14:53:33 <Gs30ng> BDSM is an implementation of SADOL
14:53:51 <puzzlet> what does the name stand for?
14:54:10 <tokigun> Badly Developed SADOL Machine
14:54:21 <Gs30ng> http://regedit.risp.pl/BDSM/Readme.html
14:54:39 <Gs30ng> http://regedit.risp.pl/BDSM/
14:54:45 <nooga> tokigun: then write one ;p
14:55:16 <nooga> in my old interpreter
14:58:13 <tokigun> in documentation: ",212I like SADOL {a UAF call using KAF as the number of arguments}
14:58:25 <tokigun> is it a UAF call using UAF?
15:23:16 <tokigun> when calling a function, local variables in caller are copied to local variables in the function? or removed from current scope?
15:26:37 <nooga> what would be better?
15:29:15 <tokigun> +3"2am is equal to "33am ?
15:33:06 <tokigun> nooga: hmm i think you've changed defintion of ' function...
15:34:00 <nooga> there is no function for converting a integer into a char
15:34:57 <nooga> mabye make like this: '0% returns 37, '1,237 returns "1%
15:35:04 <nooga> what do you think?
15:35:24 <nooga> then i'll change it in the table
15:35:47 <nooga> but i've lost the password to my account -.-
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15:40:02 <tokigun> :i,299:b",21899 bottles of beer:n',210@i(4!+++++++b",213 on the wall,nb"1,n",230Take one down, pass it around,n:i-i1:b+++i"7 bottle?-i1"1s"0"8 of beer!+++b",213 on the wall.nn
15:40:10 <tokigun> maybe 99 bottles of beer song.
15:46:24 <nooga> BDSM requires a progn on the beggining
15:46:45 <nooga> because it treats a program like a one big expression
15:46:59 <nooga> not a list of expressions
16:02:52 <nooga> i got my pass back
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17:29:43 <J|x> hah ORKgl!
17:29:59 <J|x> ORKsdl with ogl support!
17:30:23 <J|x> i don't want to write that...
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17:42:33 <GregorR> Probably wouldn't be too difficult *shrugs*
17:42:38 <GregorR> Make a class with a bunch of ORK_ functions.
17:44:23 <jix> but i'm not a ogl expert
17:44:34 <jix> i don't know the ogl calls...
17:44:49 <jix> hmm maybe vertex3f...(if that's correct)
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19:49:26 <int-e> is he following you around, too, GregorR?
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20:57:01 <nooga> my buddy wrote a fibbonacci string, qsort and bubble sort in SADOL
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09:49:42 <jix> moin calamari_
09:53:07 <jix> calamari_: why do you TIME me?
09:54:51 <jix> nooga: mac os x 10.4.2 uses the darwin 8.2 kernel...
09:55:41 <calamari_> jix: just curious what time it was there :)
09:55:42 <nooga> it has got a funny mascot
09:55:51 <jix> nooga: yes
09:57:42 <calamari_> how about a meat grinder with nice code going in and esolang coming out? :)
11:36:08 <nooga> look, qsort in SADOL: http://agentj.risp.pl/wysypisko/uploads/qsort
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14:17:31 <sp3tt> "It has become a tradition in the development of computer languages to implement each language in itself. This serves many purposes. By doing so, you demonstrate the versatility of the language, and its applicability for large projects. A compiler/interpreter is close to as complex as software ever gets." not in bf XD
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18:44:51 <nooga> my friends wrote qsort, heapsort, bubblesort and fibbonacci in it :D
18:44:59 <WildHalcyon> Im having serious developers' block with mine, so I keep pondering random side projects
18:45:25 <nooga> and now i'm trying to write a hanoi solver
18:47:41 <tokigun> then i have to write hunt the wumpus... :p
18:48:36 <nooga> today i thought about a namespaces
18:49:32 <nooga> eg. \xyz123 -> x::y::z(1,2,3)
18:49:53 <nooga> but i think that would be hard to implement
18:50:29 <nooga> then maybe we'll leave it now
18:52:16 <nooga> tokigun: did you begin the language part of your interpreter?
18:59:02 <tokigun> i'm working on it but also i'm writing another program
18:59:16 <tokigun> sorry but i don't know when it is finished :S
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19:31:41 <Gs30ng> ...in my opinion, as an esolang developer
19:31:48 <Gs30ng> well as a normal programmer...
19:32:49 <Gs30ng> i reluctantly say, it sucks.
19:33:34 <Gs30ng> but anyway this is really interesting language with some special concepts of it. i like it
19:43:36 <Gs30ng> in normal langs, when an instruction gets plural operands, we often need the operators like () and comma or something
19:44:07 <Gs30ng> but in this lang an instruction can get plural operands without any operators
19:44:20 <Gs30ng> with some awful concepts
19:45:08 <Gs30ng> i like it... although i'm not gonna program anything in it
19:46:17 <Gs30ng> just thinking programming something in it horrifies me enough
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20:21:05 <lament> what about unlambda (or haskell?) no instruction takes multiple operands :)
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22:24:03 <lament> difficult math is rarely stupid
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01:13:24 <{^Raven^}> i've been teaching someone about UTMs today :)
01:13:32 <kipple_> well, according to the esolang wiki I belong in [[category:people]] so I guess I am
01:14:15 <{^Raven^}> he's read lots of turing books without a single clear explanation of what a turing machine is or does
01:15:06 <kipple_> hehe. the more brainfuckers the merrier
01:15:31 <{^Raven^}> i reckon that it is an excellent introduction to turing machines
01:16:13 <{^Raven^}> he was expecting something where the program was on the tape and there was no place for data
01:16:20 <kipple_> I'm not too familiar with turing machines, but aren't they supposed to work with different "states"?
01:19:25 <{^Raven^}> yeah, but his book examples were extremely non-trivial
01:20:30 <kipple_> I've only dealt with them in the introductory computer science class at the uni some 8 years ago, so I don't remember too much
01:22:09 <{^Raven^}> i find that the dormal definitions are too abstract and depend entirely of the POV of the author
01:24:24 <{^Raven^}> but you have to admit that Turing developed an esolang as far back as 1936
01:25:28 <kipple_> all programming languages were esoteric back then
01:25:38 <{^Raven^}> he was the dude who said something along the lines of - why build a specific machine for each task, it would be better to build a programmable machine that can peform any task
01:26:23 <{^Raven^}> and then designed and helped to build one (the first programmable computer ;)
01:29:38 <{^Raven^}> but i digress, another brainfucker is hopefully on his way
01:30:35 <{^Raven^}> do you think that everyone thinks that we are insane for using esolangs?
01:30:54 <kipple_> does anybody know about it at all?
01:31:05 <kipple_> (if they knew they probably would, though)
01:31:33 <{^Raven^}> quite a few people have encountered it through the game I wrote in BFBASIC
01:32:02 <kipple_> hmm. I estimate 99.99% of the pop
01:32:08 <{^Raven^}> probably there are other esotools that have gone mainstream
01:32:42 <kipple_> LISP was kind of an esolang when it was made...
01:33:03 <{^Raven^}> definately - have you ever seen x86, that's just freaky
03:12:11 <calamari> actually, I'm not sure why people don' like x86
03:12:27 <calamari> is it because of the memory segment/offset thing?
03:12:48 <calamari> because that takes all of 5 minutes to understand
03:16:34 <calamari> or is it because Intel got popular, and it's in style not to like the big guy
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18:07:05 <nooga> i just updated SADOL's webpage and joined into the esolang ring
18:12:46 <nooga> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/
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21:29:55 <kipple_> hey calamari: what's up with the EsoShell?
21:30:33 <kipple_> when I run it, there's a bunch of HTML code in the console
21:36:01 <calamari> wow, that's not particularly impressive, is it
21:36:41 <kipple_> btw, does anybody now if INTERCAL is turing complete?
21:36:47 <calamari> I think I remember what I was doing tho.. I was working on being able to save programs into a wiki page
21:40:00 <kipple_> so, have you dropped the project?
21:41:27 <calamari> I remember trying to make an AWT version and being frustrated by that
21:41:39 <int-e> kipple, intercal suffers from finite memory constraints ... 64k arrays with 64k words each.
21:41:49 <calamari> then I was totally outclassed by a javascript unix shell featured on /. :)
21:42:32 <kipple_> int-e: OK. wikipedia claims it is TC, but I'll guess I'll remove that category then
21:42:52 <kipple_> calamari: yeah, I remember that one :)
21:43:44 <calamari> kipple: it was most impressive.. even had threads and a ps command
21:44:05 <kipple_> but did it have a bf-interpreter?
21:44:40 <calamari> okay, I've fixed the code.. uploading the jar (will take a minute)
21:47:01 <int-e> hrm. intercal has multidimensional arrays? ok, it can access a lot more memory then (still finite for a given program though, so still not TC - although it allows for all practical computations to be done)
21:49:32 <calamari> you may need to close and reopen your browser for the cached copy to be released
21:50:58 <calamari> hmm.. seem to be having versioning confusions there.. I'll upload all class files again
21:57:07 <calamari> one of the nifty things about EsoShell is that it loads new modules on demand, rather that loading everything at once. Only slow connections like mine benefit from it tho :)
21:57:32 <calamari> need modules for some other languages besides bf
21:58:53 <kipple_> that and a way to store files would make it awesome
21:59:28 <calamari> yeah. graue gave the okay for storing the files in wiki.. I just need to code it
22:00:08 <kipple_> how do you handle multiple users?
22:00:43 <kipple_> will each user get his own storage space?
22:01:03 <calamari> kipple_: ahhh, it doesn't work exactly that way
22:01:40 <calamari> kipple_: think of it more like a ramdrive where you can save certain files to disk with a special command (or cp if I get fancy)
22:01:43 -!- kipple_ has changed nick to kipple.
22:02:23 <calamari> so if you wrote to a file and I wrote later I could overwrite your changes, just like in the normal wiki
22:02:54 <kipple> and since it is stored in the wiki, you could always get back previous versions?
22:03:16 <calamari> you could even write the program in the wiki if you wanted to
22:03:47 <kipple> so, will each "file" get a separate article, or will they be combined on one page?
22:03:52 <jix> wiki_mount -r revision/date/whatever /mount/point /wiki/url?
22:03:59 <calamari> hmm.. I'm not really doing anything now.. maybe I'll check it out again :)
22:04:15 <calamari> currently there is no concept of a directory.. lol
22:05:05 <kipple> nice if there were at least one directory for each language
22:05:12 <jix> wiki_load /wiki/url target_file
22:05:19 <calamari> yeah.. I suppose the page name can count
22:05:21 <jix> wiki_store /wiki/url source_file
22:05:34 <calamari> iirc, graue was going to make an alternate namespace for EsoShell
22:05:55 <calamari> so I could store Befunge programs in EsoShell:Befunge
22:06:04 <jix> i just wrote a cool ruby program (term has to support ansi colors)
22:06:04 <jix> (0..22).each{|x|(0..79).each{|b|c=a=b/19.5-2.5;d=b=(x-11)/9.0;i=91;(a,b=a*a-b*
22:06:05 <jix> b+c,2*a*b+d)&&i-=1while(a*a+b*b<4)&&(i>0);$><<"\e[4#{u=i&7}m "};puts"\e[0m"}
22:06:31 <calamari> ruby: command not found hrm, need to fix that :)
22:06:50 <jix> kipple: it prints a nice picture on STDOUT
22:07:04 <jix> using ansi color codes
22:08:19 <calamari> actually, that's not bad at all for a programming language distribution
22:09:06 <kipple> the debian package is 1.5M archived
22:09:51 <jix> the debian packag is missing the stdlibs but i don't use them it that program
22:09:52 <int-e> yet another mandelbrot set generator.
22:10:15 <jix> moin int-e
22:10:27 <jix> yes i think
22:10:27 <jix> puts"\e[2J\e[0;11r";$>.sync=m="\e[C";c='/,-=<>*+.:&%$'.split'';k=[!1]*25
22:10:28 <jix> z=",rekcah ybuR rehtona tsuJ".reverse;while k.index(!1);i=-1;print"\eM"*
22:10:28 <jix> 7,"\e[H",k.map{|q|q ?" ":c[rand(13)]},"\e[6H",k.map{|q|u=z[i+=1,1];q ?u:
22:10:28 <jix> m},"\n",k.map{|q|q ?" ":m};k[rand(25)]=sleep 0.1;end;puts"\e[2J\e[r"+z#J
22:10:32 <int-e> at least that's what the code looks like to me
22:10:44 <kipple> I just ran it, and you're correct
22:11:34 <kipple> well, now I've got ruby installed as well :) the more the merrier
22:12:05 <calamari> kipple: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:Calamari
22:13:19 <kipple> that's how the shell stores programs?
22:13:33 <calamari> yeah.. of course that's a mockup
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22:16:18 <kipple> well, when you get the shell up and running in the wiki I'd be happy to port my kipple interpreter
22:17:30 <kipple> however, the next version of Kipple is also "on hold", so no rush ;)
22:17:33 <calamari> I tried to make the api as similar to a standard java console app as possible
22:17:59 <calamari> so if you have an existing kipple interpreter in Java the conversion will be minimal
22:19:16 <kipple> will stuff like System.out work?
22:21:03 <calamari> yes, although it's simply out.print
22:22:29 <calamari> All of my programs have been a single class.. haven't tested inner classes or that sort of thing.. maybe I should :)
00:17:20 <Aardwolf> How do I run the ruby code posted by jix? I typed ruby and then copypasted his code and pressed enter, but it doesn't do anything
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00:21:38 <kipple> you must end it with CTRL-D (linux) or CTRL-Z (win)
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11:14:54 <calamari> interested in comments on the following scheme:
11:15:12 <calamari> cd Befunge (would change to the Befunge wiki page)
11:15:28 <calamari> ls (would list files on the EsoShell:Befunge page)
11:16:01 <calamari> a file would be named something like wiki:HelloWorld
11:17:00 <calamari> if I wrote to "hello" it would be in RAM (not on the wiki), but I could do cp hello wiki:HelloWorld to save my changes
11:17:20 <calamari> perhaps mount Befunge is more appropriate
11:18:40 <calamari> the idea is that if I allowed regular read/write to go to the wiki, it would probably clog up the wiki will all sorts of temporary files
11:19:06 <lindi-> edit, test, edit, test, cvs commit when it's ready
11:20:27 <calamari> graue is (or did) create a special wiki namespace EsoShell
11:20:31 <lindi-> you want contribute to a wiki from EsoShell?
11:20:51 <calamari> so EsoShell:Befunge will be the place to store files for Befunge
11:21:12 <calamari> for example HelloWorld.bf (or whatever)
11:21:36 <calamari> then EsoShell can access those files from the wiki
11:22:04 <calamari> this gives it permanent storage capabilities, backed up my the reverting power of the wiki
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11:23:54 <calamari> I think it'll be a cool way to share and run esoteric programs
11:24:44 <calamari> does wiki: seem okay as a file prefix?
11:31:18 <calamari> hmm, I wonder if there is a way to get a list of all pages in a particular wiki namespace
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13:32:03 <{^Raven^}> jix: I looked at those compression schemes you suggested, only two were better than my own: rice gave 0.001% better compression and huffman gave 5% better. I have written new algorithm which is 10% better.
13:32:25 <J|x> you combined rice with mtf?
13:33:08 <{^Raven^}> no, combined my CCC1 with dictionary, it gives much better results
13:33:20 <J|x> can i have your source code and test data?
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13:41:10 <{^Raven^}> jix: http://jonripley.com/volatile/forjix.zip
13:41:59 <J|x> {^Raven^}: thanks
13:43:49 <{^Raven^}> jix: i hope that you're not entering the 2k comp, you've got all my secrets
13:44:09 <J|x> {^Raven^}: hehe
13:44:36 <J|x> i'd use zlib for compression *g*
13:44:47 <J|x> require'zlib'...
13:45:13 <{^Raven^}> erm, i would need to code the zlib decompression myself from scratch and in less than 400 bytes of code
13:45:27 <J|x> zlib is in the ruby stdlib
13:45:37 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix.
13:45:43 <jix> and my old game is written in ruby
13:46:04 <jix> but i'm not going to enter with it.. it's too bad imo
13:46:29 <{^Raven^}> I'm using BBC BASIC and coding everything from scratch
13:46:49 <{^Raven^}> using no libraries or external code
13:47:02 <jix> yes the reason i don't enter is that i used zlib and i count that as cheating
13:47:32 <{^Raven^}> same here, one guy I believe is using Java and as many libraries as he can
13:48:16 <{^Raven^}> the decompression routine for Source_Old.dat is only 120 bytes
13:48:25 <jix> source code?
13:48:48 <jix> or byte-source-code-something?
13:49:29 <jix> that's short
13:50:21 <{^Raven^}> thx. Code optimisation and algorithm design is one of my specialties
13:50:30 <jix> Compress.txt is 3kb much larger
13:50:55 <{^Raven^}> The compressor can be huge as it is not part of the final product
13:52:00 <{^Raven^}> The trick is to get the best compression and have the smallest possible decompressor
13:52:50 <{^Raven^}> My new compression algorithm becomes more efficient as the size of source data increasses
13:53:57 <jix> i'm searching my old lz77 variation code
13:54:44 <jix> 31 lines of code for decompression
13:55:20 <{^Raven^}> mine is 2 lines for the current scheme and probably 5 lines for the new scheme
13:55:31 <jix> 333 bytes of non-space code (the code is indented and not written for shortness)
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13:57:51 <jix> lzjx (my lz variation) with the hard coded default settings compresses not as good as your new scheme (100 bytes larger)
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14:00:39 <jix> you have to register your nick.. they blocked unregistered users because of spamming attacks
14:00:57 <jix> but they forgot to block /me's...
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18:56:01 <graue> if whoever does the DNS for www.esolangs.org could update it, that would be nice
18:56:12 <graue> the server changed its IP address, but esoteric.voxelperfect.net still works
19:03:54 <GregorR> www.esolangs.org seems to work for me ...
19:07:14 <graue> including the wiki?
19:07:29 <graue> maybe the DNS was changed and hasn't propagated here, then
19:08:21 <jix> wooby owns it ( i scanned my logs)
19:09:09 <jix> according to domain-whois his email address is completelycrazy AT(Yes AT) aol.com
19:09:57 <graue> he delegated it to someone
19:11:59 <kipple> www.esolangs.org works fine for me as well, but the wiki gives a database error
19:12:25 <graue> that means you're accessing the old server
19:12:51 <kipple> indeed. the other address works
19:14:22 <kipple> anyway, we had a discussion here the other day about changing the default skin of the wiki to monobook (same as wikipedia). I would definately prefer that, and a couple of others agreed.
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19:26:46 <graue> think of it as a motivation to get an account (so you can switch to a better looking skin)
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21:58:07 <Aardwolf> Hey, what's this? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Chem
22:01:55 <pgimeno> apparently something that wants to be deleted
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22:07:16 <kipple> the summary for the edit says "(Just test)".
22:07:37 <pgimeno> thanks for notifying, Aardwolf
22:07:44 <pgimeno> I've moved it to Esolang:Sandbox
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21:17:57 <jix> i've done a better compression than {^Raven^}'s
21:18:25 <jix> and i'm going to sleep now
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22:46:56 <calamari> so do I need to change something for esolangs.org, or is the problem on graue's end? http://esolangs.org seems to get to graue's website just fine
22:47:14 <calamari> afaik there is no such thing as a direct for a particular directory on a website
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22:49:00 <calamari> graue: if something does need to be changed, please e-mail me jeff () kidsquid.com, with the new ip address. Thanks.
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22:52:57 <calamari> gotta go.. someone please let graue know to e-mail me about this. thanks :)
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00:03:44 <kipple> dang, cmeme, I think there is something wrong with your connection
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00:09:17 <kipple> wow. how did you know he was gonna sign off? Are you psychic? ;)
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06:38:01 <GregorR> I'm writing a libc that works on any (UNIXish) OS :)
06:38:12 <GregorR> By detecting the OS at runtime :)
06:39:00 <calamari> everyone claims it was a unix ripoff ;)
06:39:49 <calamari> actually, I was messing around in dosbox the oother day after not having to use it for several months (Linux).. was quite primitive. Can't believe I used to like it
06:40:07 <GregorR> Anybody have a NetBSD/i386 box?
06:40:25 <GregorR> Mind testing if this crossbinary works on it?
06:40:36 <GregorR> I'm not sure if my genericish BSD hacks work with NetBSD.
06:40:51 <cpressey> GregorR: the box is kind of busy building stuff atm, but i can give it a shot in the morning
06:40:57 <calamari> Chris: how is your family? any kids yet?
06:41:06 <GregorR> cpressey: Thanks, lemme post a link.
06:41:21 <cpressey> how's it going with you calamari?
06:41:43 <calamari> got my financial aid finally, so school is paid for
06:41:54 <GregorR> cpressey: http://www.codu.org/HelloWorldX.elf
06:43:30 <cpressey> GregorR: ok... so how is it supposed to work, exactly? i can try it out on FreeBSD 4.x right now if you like.
06:43:47 <GregorR> I already know that it works on FreeBSD *shrugs*
06:43:52 <GregorR> Just chmod 0755 it and run it.
06:44:08 <GregorR> It should work on Linuxen (GNU or no), BSD and Solaris on x86
06:44:23 <cpressey> ELF binary type "0" not known.
06:44:42 <GregorR> Hmm, it shouldn't be set to type 0, I thought I changed that XDF
06:44:55 <GregorR> OK, forgot to change it :P
06:45:02 <GregorR> Oh, I know what happened, strip unset it.
06:45:41 <cpressey> ok, there's still something i'm missing - if it's a libc, why am i suposed to run it? shouldn't i be like linking to it or something?
06:45:52 <GregorR> I linked my libc into a hello world.
06:46:29 <GregorR> (My libc = newlib's OS-independent stuff + some nasty hackery for OS-dependent stuff)
06:46:32 <cpressey> is the hang after printing the message intentional?
06:46:47 <GregorR> ATM I know of know way to halt the program that works on every OS :P
06:47:01 <GregorR> So I left a hang there for the moment, so as to not make worthless core files.
06:47:55 <cpressey> i'll try it on netbsd when the box is free, and get back to you.
06:48:02 <GregorR> That would be awesome, thanks :)
06:52:31 <cpressey> great, now you;ve got me thinking about what it would take to support >1 instruction sets... assuming ELF doesn't support that... it probably does, but that makes it uninteresting. it would be far more interesting to have to write a multi-machine polyglot that detects the processor and jumps to an appropriate interpretation routine which runs the actual code, written in some VM
06:57:27 <GregorR> I'm not even trying for that.
07:21:26 <calamari> anyone happen to knwo the correct ip to the wiki? http://207.7.108.149/wiki doesn't seem to work
07:22:36 <calamari> kinda weird too, because esoteric.voxelperfect.net supposedly resolves to that..
07:31:50 <int-e> That's not weird at all, it is apparently running a web server that serves multiple domains and uses the HTTP Host: header field to distinguish between those.
07:35:40 <calamari> so how do I find out the real ip
07:35:47 <int-e> that is the real IP
07:36:00 <int-e> but you need the host name as part of the HTTP query to make it work, like this:
07:36:04 <int-e> > nc 207.7.108.149 80
07:36:04 <int-e> GET /wiki/Main_Page HTTP/1.0
07:36:04 <int-e> Host: esoteric.voxelperfect.net
07:36:21 <calamari> hmm, then I don't get it, because graue was saying it was broken
07:36:22 <int-e> [newline] -> get the mainpage of the wiki
07:39:02 <calamari> <graue> if whoever does the DNS for www.esolangs.org could update it, that would be nice 17:57:17 <graue> the server changed its IP address, but esoteric.voxelperfect.net still works
07:39:18 <calamari> maybe I need to wait until graue gets here to find out the new ip
07:41:26 <int-e> oh fun, I see what he means. 'www.esolangs.org has address 70.85.100.4' '[70.85.100.4] is pendrell.textdrive.com' 'pendrell.textdrive.com has address 207.7.108.149'
07:46:26 <int-e> and the error can be seen on http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
07:46:48 <int-e> while http://www.esolangs.org/wiki gets forwarded to voxelperfect so that works
07:47:11 <calamari> I changed the ip for esolangs.org to 207.7.108.149.. hopefully that'll work then :)
07:48:13 <calamari> cool.. my uneducated guess still worked then :)
07:48:50 <calamari> I left www.esolangs.org alone, so it should still be broken
07:48:55 <int-e> hrm, could you change www.esolangs.org, too?
07:49:08 <calamari> int-e: I didn't want to change both, in case I was wrong
07:50:47 <calamari> done.. now spreading around the globe :)
07:55:34 <int-e> ah, primary nameservers are updated ... up to an hour from now.
07:56:19 <calamari> well, either wait an hour or type it the other way for now ;)
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09:37:03 <calamari_> distilled a divisible by 4 DFA down from 100's of states to 4, once I realized the obvious..
09:38:13 <calamari_> input is decimal, but only the last two binary bits matter (00=divis by 4). so mult by 10 (dec) and add the next digit. transition table is the answer mod 3
09:38:48 <calamari_> I should release my DFA interpreter, but I haven't finished all the JavaDoc comments
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17:02:21 <fungebob> Does anyone have a copy of the PingPong esolang zip file?
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19:35:43 <wildhalcyon> I've got a copy of the pingpong zip, I'll email it to graue to put on the wiki file archive
19:36:50 <wildhalcyon> I haven't had time to get to it because I replaced my HD. I've got it though. I'll send it tonight
19:44:30 <wildhalcyon> I've also got the 'Y' .lha file, but I think that's available from the False page anyways, and aside from resembling the Funge-98 Fingerprints, isnt exactly new
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21:42:51 <graue> something weird is up with the wiki
21:43:05 <graue> it just shows a preview when I try to save anything
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22:06:27 <cpressey> GregorR: yup, it works on NetBSD.
22:06:48 <GregorR> AHHHH, I ROCK EVEN MORE THAN I THOUGHT I DID!
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22:21:18 <fungebob> oh yea, thatd be great, jim@jimbomania.com
22:21:51 <wildhalcyon> The implementation is less than adequate though
22:24:45 <wildhalcyon> hmm... sent. You should check your mail eventually
22:29:53 <wildhalcyon> Assuming for a second that a tryte (ternary equiv. to byte) is standardized at 3^6 = 729, what kind of characters would you like to see included in a tryte character code?
22:32:14 <wildhalcyon> So far, I have most of the obvious printables from ASCII (anything on the keyboard), the european inflected characters, greek, and a few non-printable (tab, EOF, NULL, etc.)
22:44:46 <kipple> graue: the wiki seems to work fine for me. just entered some text in the sandbox
22:46:10 <kipple> btw, what's with the oranges? ;)
22:47:25 <graue> well, everyone was complaining about the mediawiki default logo
22:47:53 <wildhalcyon> I never complained. I'd like that on record.
22:47:57 <graue> the wiki works fine for me too, now
22:48:00 <wildhalcyon> The oranges are alright, but.. its not much of a logo
22:48:13 <kipple> I was just wondering whether it had some esoteric symbolism, or if it's just an arbitrary image
22:48:37 <wildhalcyon> I think a nice Rube Goldberg machine would be suitable.
22:49:12 <kipple> though perhaps a bit difficult to fit into such a small space
22:49:17 <graue> the oranges are pretty
22:49:58 <wildhalcyon> Do the ones in that picture taste good as well?
22:50:45 <kipple> they are a bit too pixellated for my taste
22:56:10 <fungebob> hey wildhalcyon , thanks a lot for the zip
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23:18:14 <graue> I can substitute limes for the current oranges if anyone would prefer those
23:19:08 <kipple> hmm. lime might be slightly more esoteric than oranges ;)
23:26:10 <calamari> graue: did you happen to see the "votes" the other day for change of default wiki style to monobook?
23:26:30 <calamari> was it called monobook.. 2nd guessing my memory
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23:36:18 <graue> wildhalcyon: if you can get me a high-quality, PD melon image, then sure
23:38:04 <calamari> graue: can't remember the exact day, sorry.. it seems like a popular change, though
23:38:32 <graue> you know you can change it in your account, right?
23:41:04 <graue> so who cares what the default is?
23:43:32 <graue> oh well, I changed it anyway
23:43:42 <graue> sure makes it less obvious whether you're logged in or not
23:45:08 <graue> what the heck is http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/%EB%8C%80%EB%AC%B8
23:45:09 <calamari> thanks for changing it though :)
23:45:28 <calamari> graue: there was interest in a Korean wiki
23:45:49 <calamari> graue: we were investigating a way to do that without having two different wikis
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23:57:00 <calamari> graue: to answer your question, tohugh.. that's "Main Page" in Korean :)
23:58:00 <calamari> graue: for what I was seeing, it was possible to have the "Main Page" link go to that Korean page if their language was set to Korean
23:58:12 <calamari> graue: only an admin can do it, though