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01:02:31 <tusho> MANDATORY FUN DAY IS BACK!!
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01:06:47 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: :(
01:07:16 <tusho> haha, i like this shop of the first new one
01:07:17 <tusho> http://i30.tinypic.com/2zscztk.jpg
01:07:37 <tusho> though fgsfds is lowercase.
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03:36:40 <augur> are you here for the gaysex?
03:48:06 <lament> this is THE gaysex channel
03:59:24 <augur> ::gaysexes lament::
04:05:51 <augur> we left rodger out :(
04:05:58 <augur> ::cums on rodgers face::
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04:08:08 <lament> you scared calamari away
04:08:24 <augur> well, now we know how to separate the men from the boys
04:08:47 <lament> by... cuming on their faces?
04:38:17 <augur> well i didnt cum on CALAMARI's face
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08:14:23 <Slereah_> Don't mind augur and his flaming gayness.
08:17:13 <augur> sorry, i felt there wasnt enough gayness.
08:17:16 <augur> had to gay it up in here
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09:15:00 <asiekierka> what? was my SNUSPrisc idea that bad? (a RISC in SNUSP)
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09:21:52 <asiekierka> it'll also have not X and Y for memory
09:22:11 <asiekierka> every thread will have it's own 512-byte memory piece
09:24:23 <asiekierka> all Core SNUSP and Modular SNUSP commands are there
09:25:23 <asiekierka> and 3 new commands: ^ (nand), ! (global/thread memory swap), and * (swap the global memory value and the thread memory value)
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10:27:27 <Nocta> im just wondering if you could code a gui in brainfuck? ;o
10:27:30 <Nocta> i mean in theory ;p
10:30:17 <Nocta> i surely wont do this :)
10:30:25 <Nocta> but i just cant imagine HOW to do this
10:31:39 <Slereah_> Nocta : For instance, . could display a pixel of a certain color.
10:32:41 <Nocta> hm but couldnt you popup a window with a normal design with brainfuck? ;o
10:33:16 <Nocta> i also dont know how you could "leave" the 30.000 bytes array and for example close any other application
10:33:26 <Nocta> but its turingcomplete ;o
10:35:09 <Slereah_> It's just not very good to handle graphics.
10:35:57 <Nocta> i know that its not good for _anything_ ;) but i dont even know if its possible oO
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10:54:12 <Nocta> and now youre funny? :)
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11:06:06 <Nocta> is there anything like an official brainfuck forum? ;o
11:06:18 <lament> this is the official brainfuck forum.
11:08:40 <roos> Hi! is anybody speek russian here ?
11:10:38 <Slereah_> There's the esolang forum, but I'm not sure if it's still read
11:13:17 <lament> roos: what would you do with a russian speaker if you got a hold of one?
11:19:16 <roos> hold of one - what is it
11:22:30 <roos> lament just interesting
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11:38:39 <Nocta> hm and where's that esolang forum? i just want to read a bit through it, doesnt matter if its still active
11:43:19 <Slereah_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/
11:43:38 <Slereah_> But if you really want to read up on brainfuck, read the esowiki article
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12:39:27 * Nocta slaps Slereah_ around a bit with a large trout
12:41:59 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck
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14:39:05 <oklopol> 12:27… Nocta: im just wondering if you could code a gui in brainfuck? ;o <<< PSOX !!!!!
14:39:31 <ais523> I suppose you could do it with ASCII art
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14:39:50 <Nocta> ok you could do it with ascii sure ;)
14:39:51 <ais523> and technically speaking there's no reason why you couldn't implement curses in Brainfuck, except that that would be insane
14:40:00 <oklopol> in soviet russia, the brain fucks you
14:40:04 <ais523> I don't think PSOX as a GUI, though
14:40:39 <oklopol> it's trivial to make something for graphics with , and .
14:41:03 <oklopol> just encode drawing stuff in io some way
14:41:10 <Nocta> sure, but thats not the kind if gui i mean
14:41:27 <ais523> generally speaking you can do it by putting filters on the input and output
14:41:32 <ais523> that's how PSOX works, for instance
14:41:33 <Nocta> but actually you cant create a new window with a normal windows-gui with a normal brainfuck implementation
14:41:39 <Nocta> because you lack access to the "real" memory
14:41:51 <ais523> that's because the Windows API is badly designed
14:45:13 <ais523> but imagine you have some sort of translator attached to the Brainfuck I/O streams
14:45:27 <ais523> so the BF program outputs some code meaning "create a window"
14:45:32 <ais523> and the translator creates a window for it
14:45:40 <Nocta> hm yeah that would be possible
14:45:52 <ais523> that's the idea behind PSOX, but it never really caught on
14:46:09 <Nocta> but on the other hand you could also write an implementation for brainfuck at the processor-memory or something
14:46:29 <oklopol> you could let it do system calls
14:46:50 <Nocta> yeah but you cant with do such things with a normal brainfuck implementation
14:47:31 <Nocta> because the array where brainfuck can play as it wants, is seperated from everything else
14:47:41 <Nocta> so it cant effect anything outside the application
14:48:18 <ais523> well, imagine that you output some code saying "read the value of memory location 0xabcdef10"
14:48:24 <ais523> and you get the value in through standard input
14:48:29 <ais523> that way it can effect pointers, and so on
14:48:33 <ais523> but that needs a translater too
14:48:39 <ais523> s/translater/translator/
14:48:41 <Nocta> yeah so its not 100% brainfuck :p
14:49:05 <Slereah> Then just make your Brainfuck output ANSI itty bitty squares
14:49:20 <Slereah> It will be 100% brainfuck!
14:49:38 <Slereah> and also terrible for anything that isn't purely a static image
14:50:48 <Slereah> What would worry me is the speed of such a process.
14:51:36 <Slereah> It would probably be better to do a monochrome thingy in Boolfuck
14:51:50 * ais523 finds themself wishing for a diff4
14:51:51 <oklopol> it's weird how little people talk about speed restraints given by the implementation of a certain language
14:52:00 <ais523> or possibly even diff5
14:52:30 <oklopol> or how fast formal languages are @ computation, in terms of rewrites
14:52:38 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should diff the output of diff itself
14:52:43 <oklopol> formal languages... i mean like computational models
14:52:56 <Slereah> Well, Brainfuck isn't just a computational model.
14:53:47 <oklopol> they're just *used* differently, says i.
14:54:34 <ais523> computational models generally don't specify file formats, whereas programming languages generally do
14:54:37 <ais523> I think that's the main difference
14:55:41 <oklopol> well yeah, i guess that's the main difference.
14:55:42 <ais523> P'' doesn't have a source code file format
14:56:53 <ais523> anyway, my problem at the moment:
14:57:01 <ais523> there is an old file, which I have changed and someone else has changed
14:57:04 <ais523> and I want to merge the changes
14:57:10 <ais523> so far, that's just a simple diff3
14:57:43 <ais523> however, my copy of the file someone else has changed also has some of my changes in
14:57:51 <ais523> relative to a fifth version of that same file
15:00:42 * ais523 runs slocate to try to track down just which versions exist and what was based on what
15:00:53 <ais523> because all the files involved have the same filename
15:00:56 <ais523> but are in different directories
15:07:54 * ais523 finds the 2 smallest relevant diffs and diffs them in their head
15:18:23 <ais523> I hope it's right now...
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16:08:55 <tusho> this is my fourth try ...
16:09:03 <ais523> first one that appeared in the channel
16:09:10 <tusho> ais523: yeah, it's been misbehaving
16:09:13 <tusho> sometimes I try xchat fisrt
16:09:14 * ais523 has been filing bugs against gnome-games
16:09:15 <tusho> sometimes epiphany
16:09:20 <tusho> there's some kind of weird order that gets it right
16:09:25 <ais523> epiphany can connect to IRC?
16:09:28 <tusho> it involves switching to non-graphical stuff when connecting and similar
16:09:41 <tusho> but this is my second first-xchat try
16:09:45 <tusho> and the first that didnt' crash immediately
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16:10:35 <tusho> ais523: not gonna join #ircnomic _yet_ because i'm not crashing
16:10:43 <tusho> so direct any messages to me that belong in there here for a second
16:11:13 <tusho> ais523: is my perlnomic players.cgi passing?
16:11:20 <ais523> it's at +3, quorum is 5
16:11:26 <tusho> it was at +3 last night
16:11:27 <ais523> no opposes or abstains, though
16:11:48 <tusho> ok, it might pass today I guess
16:11:52 <tusho> think I should try epiphany?
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16:12:07 <ais523> if you think your connection can handle it
16:12:17 <tusho> ais523: wait, it's not my connection that crashes
16:12:26 <tusho> my connection is great :P
16:12:35 <tusho> ais523: actually, this computer _never_ crashes with windows
16:12:50 <tusho> the hardware combination is from hell, I think, because linux acts like this with it
16:13:09 <tusho> I would use windows, except, you know, I'd have to use windows
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16:13:19 <ais523> it can be not that bad
16:13:31 <ais523> on my Windows desktop at home, I've got much of GNU installed
16:13:38 <ais523> so I use bash and ls, etc
16:13:45 <ais523> one warning, though, use copy rather than cp
16:13:51 <tusho> it can be not that bad!
16:13:56 <tusho> funnest sentence ever
16:14:00 <tusho> it looks like a typo, but it isn't
16:14:32 <tusho> ais523: of course, I cygwin'd it up
16:14:32 <tusho> it's just nowhere near as comfortable for me
16:14:32 <tusho> i've spent whole days fiddling with it to get it nice.. still not a fan.
16:14:32 <ais523> because cp is much slower because it has to go via Windows's file-handling stuff, whereas copy can do it directly
16:14:47 <tusho> ais523: oh, and I like systems that can fork
16:15:15 <oklopol> for a while i thought cp was for child porn there.
16:15:21 <oklopol> was a fairly weird sentence
16:16:01 <oklopol> (read NO FUCKING CP on a forum about 15 minutes ago)
16:16:19 <tusho> so child porn not involving fucking is a-ok?
16:16:39 <tusho> reminds me of a recent daily wtf
16:16:39 <oklopol> i can't imagine "fucking" having any other meaning there.
16:16:45 <tusho> 'an unhealthy amount of child porn'
16:17:30 <oklopol> i should leave now... well i've been trying to leave for 1.5 hours
16:17:36 <oklopol> but it's not all that easy leaving the computer
16:17:57 <oklopol> especially the internet with its chats and endless sources of random content
16:18:32 <oklopol> btw, oklotalk passed with the best possible grade
16:18:44 <ais523> oklopol: what did you enter it into?
16:18:47 <tusho> that's not possible
16:18:51 <tusho> ais523: high school thingy he had to do.
16:18:55 <tusho> oklotalk--, to be precise
16:18:58 <oklopol> high school graduation project
16:19:04 <tusho> ais523: because it's crazy!!!
16:19:11 <tusho> oklopol: now, give us the source
16:19:45 <oklopol> even if had been a programming language project, it would've been a good one
16:19:54 <oklopol> but it was a fairly open project, no one makes anything nearly that complicated
16:20:08 <oklopol> not that it's that complicated. it's just most people make... crap
16:20:33 <oklopol> very obscure use of pronouns there.
16:20:48 <oklopol> tusho: i promised nothing :)
16:20:54 <tusho> oklopol: but you SAID :(
16:21:01 <oklopol> I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING.
16:22:37 <oklopol> i know, it's a bad pun, try not to laugh :| ...oh, wait, try to laugh
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17:52:57 <Nocta> what language is this? in ais523's quitmessage?
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18:35:37 <tusho> <Nocta> what language is this? in ais523's quitmessage?
18:36:56 <tusho> Nocta: ais523 maintains c-intercal
18:38:04 <Nocta> its designed to be hard to work with? :o
18:38:46 <tusho> Nocta: do you expect #esoteric to consist of nice fluffy languages?
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18:43:56 <Nocta> mh some langauges are designed to be small, others to be hard, and others to look like a piece of shakespear oO
18:44:14 <Nocta> piet looks interesting
18:53:27 <tusho> Nocta: yes piet is fun
18:57:23 <Slereah> Small languages are hard as a side effect.
18:57:41 <Nocta> thats true, but they are not designed to be hard ;)
18:57:45 <Slereah> And most esolangs aren't that big.
18:58:28 <HanDongSeong> You often need a small compiler to write something actually
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19:16:35 <Slereah> What do you mean, mister dong
19:18:04 <HanDongSeong> lifthrasiir there wrote a short python script to make his 99 bottles code in Wheel
19:18:20 <Slereah> Oh, you mean a translator to actually write programs?
19:18:37 <tusho> like, writing in some languages is a pain
19:18:40 <tusho> so you write a program to write it
19:18:44 <tusho> in something less painful
19:18:52 <tusho> HanDongSeong: most of the time the program it generates is hardcoded into it
19:18:58 <tusho> so it's just a generator
19:19:39 <Slereah> but it was even more of a pain in the ass to write it
19:19:49 <Slereah> I'm not a very good programmer.
19:20:15 <tusho> Slereah: hey, at least you can program
19:20:19 <tusho> it's a bit leap from none->some
19:20:31 <tusho> Slereah: what were you trying to generate?
19:20:48 <Slereah> Something to convert pseudo code into Lazy Bird.
19:21:08 <Slereah> Like translating some of the most common operators, and some of the loops and conditional
19:21:10 <tusho> Slereah: Cool. What kinda pseudo code?
19:21:52 <Slereah> Well, so far my idea was to just replace a bunch of operator with the appropriate combinators
19:22:03 <Slereah> I didn't really have any idea to implement the loops and such
19:22:03 <tusho> Slereah: like, + and stuff?
19:22:08 <tusho> so you could do `+22 or whatever
19:22:20 <Slereah> Because + is pretty simple in lazy bird
19:22:31 <Slereah> But = is long like a longcat.
19:22:41 <tusho> Slereah: Okay. So couldn't you have just:
19:22:44 <tusho> - parsed the lazy bird
19:22:51 <tusho> - go through and replace = with the right code
19:22:57 <tusho> - then converted it back into code?
19:23:09 <tusho> Slereah: you could steal most of the code from lazy bird itself
19:23:20 <Slereah> Well, technically, I could just do a replace = by the combinator
19:23:29 <Slereah> But the loops where a big problem
19:23:46 <tusho> Slereah: I guess so.
19:23:47 <Slereah> Even with el seor Turingo combinatorre.
19:24:07 <tusho> Slereah: Oh wells!
19:24:47 <Slereah> Plus, I am currently (not) working on an even awesomer language
19:25:04 <tusho> Slereah: COOL WHAT IS IT
19:25:35 <Slereah> A mish mash of the very small functional languages
19:25:42 <Slereah> To make them somehow usable together
19:25:55 <tusho> Slereah: put some haskell in it
19:25:56 <Slereah> (It's actually lambda-iota-mu-pi)
19:26:11 <tusho> and put in some lisp and haskell
19:26:15 <tusho> then i'll buttsex you
19:26:24 <Slereah> Well, it is call limp because it's also based on lisp
19:26:30 <tusho> Slereah: OK then, drop iota and add haskell
19:26:34 <Slereah> But it also has mu recursive functions
19:26:37 <tusho> iota is just booring
19:26:48 <Slereah> The iota is not for the iota language
19:27:03 <Slereah> But like, the original Lisp
19:27:10 <tusho> Slereah: hokay. well just add some haskell in
19:27:21 <Slereah> What does Haskell have moar?
19:27:27 <tusho> Slereah: Haskell has tons moar.
19:27:30 <tusho> It's nothing like lisp
19:27:38 <Slereah> Well, I sort of want to keep it esoteric.
19:28:00 <tusho> Slereah: Yes, but haskell is basically eso
19:28:23 <Slereah> It would be mostly lambda calculus - recursive functions - original Lisp
19:28:37 <Slereah> Plus I'm trying to work pi calculus in, since I have a pi left.
19:28:38 <tusho> Slereah: Rite. Add some ha! Skull.
19:28:50 <tusho> Oh god. Pi calculus + lisp + haskell = I LUV U
19:29:02 <Slereah> would provide numbers, lisp would provide lists
19:29:15 <Slereah> And lambdas, well, general functions I suppose.
19:29:15 <tusho> Slereah: lambda would provide functions
19:29:21 <tusho> pi would provide AWESOME MESSAGES AND ACTORS AND STUFF
19:29:33 <tusho> and haskell would provide LAZY MONADIC JOY
19:29:45 <Slereah> I was thinking of treating I/O like one of the actor fellow.
19:29:51 <tusho> Slereah: Oooh, now that's clever.
19:29:56 <Slereah> and have a channel always open for it.
19:29:56 <tusho> I/O is just an opaque actor.
19:30:16 <tusho> Unify actors and monads.
19:30:52 <Slereah> For instance, if x is the channel, a cat would be (x(a).x<a>.0)! or something
19:31:21 <tusho> Slereah: You could have it that actors are just monadic actions
19:31:21 <Slereah> But I still have no fucking idea what monads are.
19:31:27 <tusho> but the monadic actions have send/recv stuff
19:31:34 <tusho> Slereah: ok, do you get category theory, kinda.
19:31:38 <tusho> I mean, sorta maybe.
19:31:51 <tusho> Slereah: ok fine. Do you get haskell types?
19:31:58 <tusho> a -> b -> c is a -> (b -> c)
19:32:08 <tusho> and it's a function, from a to (a function from b to c)
19:32:14 <tusho> Slereah: Right, of course. But do you understand that?
19:32:30 <Slereah> Well, you're just describing priority.
19:32:38 <tusho> Slereah: No, not really.
19:32:40 <tusho> I was just explaining the syntax.
19:32:54 <tusho> Slereah: OK, and do you get what I mean when I say (m a)? It means: the type 'm', given the type argument 'a'
19:33:03 <tusho> if we don't qualify 'a' or 'm' anywhere else, they can be anything.
19:33:07 <tusho> Slereah: Got that?
19:33:17 <tusho> And finally, a :: b means 'a is of type b'
19:33:35 <tusho> Slereah: Once you've got all that, i'll explain sum of dat monadz
19:33:38 <Slereah> Do you have an example of (m a)
19:33:52 <tusho> List is a type taking one argument
19:33:56 <tusho> and we give it the argument Integer
19:34:08 <tusho> meaning 'I don't care what we get'
19:34:10 <tusho> as long as it's a list
19:34:27 <tusho> Slereah: Hokay. Ready for sum HOT MONAD ON MONAD ACKTION
19:35:02 <Slereah> I had this conversation many time before
19:35:08 <Slereah> It never fared very well :o
19:35:19 <tusho> Slereah: Okay. So now that we've got that..
19:35:29 <tusho> Slereah: we're going to explain monads, WITHOUT ANY DUMB FUCKING ANALOGIES
19:35:33 <tusho> (i'm talking to YOU, #haskell)
19:35:39 <tusho> Slereah: okay, so.
19:35:48 <Slereah> Actually, I never asked #haskell
19:35:48 <tusho> Slereah: There are some types that classify as MONADS.
19:36:01 <tusho> yeah, just, shut up and say 'ok' when you've digested what i've said :P
19:36:18 <tusho> Slereah: got that?
19:36:32 <Slereah> Doesn't everything in Haskell have one argument?
19:36:41 <Slereah> Through hot curry and kebabs.
19:36:45 <tusho> Slereah: We're talking about types here.
19:36:57 <tusho> (List Integer) <-- List is a type. Integer is a type. (List Integer) is a type.
19:37:00 <tusho> List is a type taking one argument.
19:37:06 <tusho> Slereah: However, Integer takes no arguments.
19:37:32 <tusho> Slereah: Right. So.
19:37:40 <tusho> Every monad has some functions on it.
19:37:57 <tusho> That is, a monad 'm' is a type taking one argument that has some functions that obey some laws.
19:38:14 <tusho> Slereah: So 'm' is our monad, right? Got that?
19:38:39 <tusho> Slereah: Hokay. So. Here's the first function.
19:38:42 <tusho> return :: a -> m a
19:39:02 <tusho> Slereah: So, return takes a value of type 'a', and gives you an 'm a'.
19:39:06 <tusho> 'a' can be anything, 'm' is our monad.
19:39:14 <tusho> Slereah: Got that? I'll tell you _what_ these do later.
19:39:41 <tusho> Slereah: OK. Now comes the big, important function.
19:39:46 <tusho> bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
19:39:52 <tusho> Slereah: WHOOOOOAAA THAT'S A SCARY FUCKING TYPE.
19:39:59 <tusho> The clue is in the name, Slereah.
19:40:04 <tusho> Slereah: Basically.
19:40:13 <tusho> Slereah: You know 'return'? Wrong name for it.
19:40:16 <tusho> It should be called 'wrap'.
19:40:23 <tusho> Slereah: We WRAP the value into the monad. OK?
19:40:29 <tusho> Now, 'bind' lets us unwrap them.
19:40:34 <tusho> bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
19:40:40 <tusho> Slereah: See that 'a'? That 'a' comes from the 'm a'.
19:40:54 <tusho> Slereah: BUT, we're not allowed to escape monads. So we have to get it as a function argument, which MUST stay inside the monad.
19:41:04 <tusho> So we unwrap it, do our stuff, and give back a value still in the monad.
19:41:06 <tusho> Then bind gives us that value.
19:41:13 <tusho> Slereah: Got that?
19:41:50 <tusho> Slereah: i'm about to explain the laws that define exactly how they should behave.
19:41:53 <tusho> Slereah: ready for that?
19:42:00 <Slereah> Sooo... bind will take some monad infested argument, and return (a -> m b) -> m b?
19:42:17 <Slereah> Which will then give us more g^Hmonads?
19:42:22 <tusho> Slereah: Well, kinda, but that's not how you should think about it.
19:42:24 <tusho> Bind takes two arguments.
19:42:40 <tusho> A monad infested one, a function that takes a _non-infested_ version of the first argument, and returns an infested value, and then returns that value.
19:42:47 <tusho> So it unwraps the first value to give it to the function.
19:43:01 <tusho> Slereah: got that?
19:43:42 <Slereah> (I'm lying to move along faster)
19:43:42 <tusho> Slereah: Okay. Now here come the MONAD LAWZ
19:43:58 <tusho> wrap a `bind` f = f a
19:44:08 <tusho> Slereah: Since 'wrap' wraps something, then 'bind' unwraps it and gives it to its second argument,
19:44:12 <tusho> that obviously holds true. Right?
19:44:48 <Slereah> Is that ((wrap a) bind) f?
19:45:05 <tusho> It's just more convenient this way.
19:45:52 <tusho> Slereah: In Haskell land we are syntaxfags.
19:46:25 <tusho> bind (bind a f) g = bind a (\x -> bind (f x) g)
19:46:35 <tusho> Slereah: that one's a bit hard to understand, but basically it means that 'bind' is associative.
19:46:58 <tusho> Slereah: Now, what is an actual example of a monad?
19:46:59 <Slereah> I also hate you Haskell people for using \
19:47:06 <tusho> Slereah: WOULD YOU BELIEVE IT. List is a monad!
19:47:16 <tusho> Slereah: My list monad, would you like to see it?
19:47:30 <tusho> Slereah: Hokay. So for list:
19:47:40 <tusho> Slereah: That's pretty simple, right? We're _wrapping_ a value into a list.
19:47:44 <tusho> bind :: a -> List a
19:47:50 <tusho> Yep, List is an okay 'm' so far.
19:47:59 <tusho> Slereah: And nao for bynd.
19:48:07 <tusho> bind xs f = concat (map f xs)
19:48:12 <tusho> Slereah: To explain that:
19:48:16 <tusho> concat :: List (List a) -> List a
19:48:23 <tusho> Slereah: i.e. (concat [[1,2],[3,4]] -> [1,2,3,4])
19:48:29 <tusho> Slereah: And .. you know map.
19:48:50 <tusho> map f [x,y,z] -> [f x,f y, f z]
19:49:00 <tusho> and 'xs' is just a common name for a list argument.
19:49:05 <tusho> Slereah: So, let's examine bind's type again
19:49:09 <tusho> bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
19:49:12 <tusho> Well, since we're doing lists:
19:49:17 <tusho> bind :: List a -> (a -> List b) -> List b
19:49:28 <tusho> Slereah: So the first argument we get is a list.
19:49:36 <tusho> And the second one takes an element of that list, and returns another list.
19:49:47 <tusho> Slereah: So, since we've mapped it, we get (List (List b))
19:49:55 <tusho> So we concat it, get (List b), and voila! We have our bind return value.
19:49:59 <Slereah> So what does the bind return in this case?
19:50:06 <tusho> Slereah: the concatenation
19:50:10 <tusho> Slereah: An example:
19:50:18 <tusho> bind [1,2,3] (\x -> [x,1])
19:50:40 <tusho> Slereah: Now, the monad laws.
19:50:52 <tusho> bind (wrap a) f = f a
19:51:06 <tusho> bind [1] (\x -> ...)
19:51:10 <tusho> Now, bind maps over it.
19:51:16 <tusho> map (\x -> ...) [1]
19:51:24 <tusho> Then concats it...
19:51:27 <tusho> concat (map (\x -> ...) [1])
19:51:34 <tusho> Slereah: Blargh, I lost you didn't I?
19:52:14 <Slereah> Well, wouldn't f a be (\x -> [x,1]) [1,2,3], which would be [[1,2,3]]?
19:52:38 <tusho> Slereah: No, because of the map
19:52:44 <tusho> map :: (a -> b) -> List a -> List b
19:52:51 <tusho> Slereah: So if we have (a -> List b)
19:52:59 <tusho> map :: (a -> List b) -> List a -> List (List b)
19:53:04 <tusho> which is *almost* binds type
19:53:08 <tusho> Move the arguments around:
19:53:16 <tusho> map :: List a -> (a -> List b) -> List (List b)
19:53:20 <tusho> Success! We just have one too many levels of list.
19:53:25 <tusho> map :: List a -> (a -> List b) -> List b
19:53:28 <tusho> bind :: List a -> (a -> List b) -> List b
19:53:36 <tusho> bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
19:54:34 <tusho> Slereah: am i rite
19:54:58 <Slereah> Sorry, I was talking to my mother.
19:55:30 <Slereah> The function in bind is supposed to be irrelevant.
19:55:38 <tusho> bind (wrap a) f = f a
19:55:53 <tusho> concat (map f [a]) = f a
19:55:56 <tusho> Slereah: Do you see now?
19:57:30 <tusho> concat [[f a]] = [f a]
19:57:36 <tusho> Slereah: Remember, f returns a List
19:57:39 <tusho> so we get a List List
19:57:42 <tusho> so we concat to get a List
19:57:53 <Slereah> But map f [x,y,z] -> [f x,f y, f z] :o
19:58:08 <tusho> Slereah: Yes.. But f returns a list.
19:58:18 <tusho> Slereah: f is (a -> List b)
19:58:22 <tusho> where 'a' is the type of elements in the list
19:58:22 <Slereah> Isn't it supposed to be a random function?
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19:58:31 <tusho> Yes, but it must be of a specific type!
19:58:35 <tusho> bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
19:58:38 <tusho> f is the second argument
19:58:56 <Slereah> Man I hate Haskell's syntax
19:59:10 <tusho> Slereah: Somehow I doubt your problem is with the syntax here.
19:59:51 <Slereah> Could you give the I/O monad thingy?
20:00:41 <tusho> Slereah: its internal to the haskell impl
20:00:46 <tusho> obviously, since it actually does the io
20:01:38 <Slereah> Also, what would actually add a monad in my awesome thing that I won't actually ever implement?
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20:07:11 <tusho> Slereah: I have to go now for about 30 mins, soon.
20:07:46 <Slereah> Sorry boy, but me and monads just don't mix :o
20:08:42 <tusho> Slereah: Keep tryin'.
20:13:22 <Slereah> What I'd like to know is, why do functional people have so much against side effects?
20:13:49 <Slereah> I can understand the concern for an esoteric language, because it's fun to make a language entirely of one paradigm
20:14:06 <tusho> Slereah: it helps enforce correctness
20:14:09 <tusho> and helps reasoning about programming
20:14:13 <tusho> and letsy ou do lazy evaluation
20:15:01 <Slereah> Isn't "enforcing correctness" just another term for "being unpractical"?
20:15:36 <tusho> It means that if your program compiles, it probably works
20:17:09 <tusho> Disregard that. Back for a few minutes.
20:17:59 <Slereah> So, what would add monad for the limp machine 9000
20:18:09 <Slereah> (Disregard the 9000, it's a bad habit)
20:18:58 <tusho> Slereah: define 'add monad'
20:19:13 <tusho> Slereah: My idea was - an actor is a monad.
20:19:19 <tusho> So, your IO actor, is an actor, but it's also a monad.
20:20:01 <Slereah> But how would this work out?
20:20:33 <tusho> Slereah: It's your language, you figure it out.
20:20:36 <tusho> All I know is IT'D BE AWESOME.
20:20:48 <Slereah> But I don't want no filthy monads in it :o
20:21:07 <Slereah> And since I barely know what it is, it would be hard to work it in some actor
20:21:17 <Slereah> What the fuck is a bind for an actor?
20:21:32 <Slereah> The user is one! And I don't want to be bound!
20:21:39 <Slereah> At least not on the first date.
20:21:57 <tusho> Slereah: Well, no.
20:22:02 <tusho> I mean that an actor is a monadic value.
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20:22:44 <Slereah> My idea was mainly to do something that's vaguely usable.
20:22:54 <tusho> Slereah: this could be usable!
20:22:58 <tusho> You just write your actors as monadic stuff.
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20:23:33 <Slereah> Doing numbers in pure Lisp is probably not very easy, and doing lists in is a fucking hassle.
20:23:45 <Slereah> And lambda calculus is just painfully long.
20:23:53 <Slereah> But what if the three were combined! :o
20:24:02 <lament> "painfully long", that's what SHE said
20:24:30 <Slereah> I also want to do some sort of library-like feature.
20:24:41 <Slereah> Like you could load a list of pre-existing functions.
20:25:01 <Slereah> Instead of redefining addition for every program, you could just load some arithmetic module
20:26:08 <lament> Slereah: monads and side-effects are not very related, by the way.
20:26:13 <Slereah> I'm pondering on what to use for compatibility between functions though.
20:26:32 <lament> a monad is just a monad, you can have one in any decent language
20:26:41 <Slereah> Like what would happen if I try successor on something that isn't a number
20:27:05 <tusho> <Slereah> Like what would happen if I try successor on something that isn't a number
20:27:08 <tusho> it should success.
20:27:13 <Slereah> lament : isn't the I/O monad supposed to prevent side effects?
20:27:19 <tusho> Slereah: the IO monad, yes
20:27:33 <lament> Slereah: no, the IO monad is supposed to allow side effects.
20:27:37 <tusho> Slereah: the IO monad is what we refer to as a "clever trick", though
20:27:39 <lament> Haskell would be pretty useless otherwise
20:28:12 <Slereah> I'm not a big fan of types, but the idea of converting things into lambda calculus and lambda calculus in lists and numbers does not appeal much to me
20:28:54 <Slereah> Mainly because I'm lazy and it would be retarded to use those functions on something that isn't the right argument
20:30:19 <lament> in a context of non-esoteric languages, types are a good way of documenting your code.
20:30:30 <Slereah> So the basic functions would be something like succ, , cons, car, cdr, cond, atom, eq.
20:30:34 <lament> often you know what a function does just by looking at its signature.
20:30:47 <Slereah> With the constants nil, true, false and 0.
20:30:59 <Slereah> Though true and false could also just be 0 and >0
20:31:29 <tusho> Slereah: and 'spawn'
20:31:37 <tusho> (and'wrap'and'bind')
20:31:46 <Slereah> I'm not sure the projection function would be of much use if I have no restriction on the function definition
20:33:17 <Slereah> (Also lambdas and some combinators from the good old lazy bird set)
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20:36:21 <lament> ihope, oerjan and calamari all joining at the exact same time
20:36:53 * ihope eats Slereah's upper eyebrow
20:38:27 * ihope administers monads ocularly
20:39:10 <Slereah> It's going to be a Clockwork Orange moment, isn't it?
20:45:20 <Slereah> "I could see a bit of the ol' functional language, when suddenly, I felt monads"
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21:00:28 <Nocta> mh how would you display numbers with more than one digit in the best way in brainfuck? ;o
21:01:36 <oerjan> i vaguely recall PEBBLE has an i2a algorithm
21:02:00 <Slereah> Nocta : You use some sort of dividable - substraction algorithm?
21:02:40 <Nocta> i thought about doing something like this
21:03:03 <oerjan> (PEBBLE-generated bf probably is not optimal in size though)
21:03:21 <oerjan> since it is macro-based, so will have repetitions
21:05:12 <oerjan> (vague recall as in i think i helped pikhq debug it)
21:06:21 <oerjan> or at least the underlying division macro
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21:19:43 <Nocta> i dont really know what you mean
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21:21:43 <oerjan> PEBBLE is pikhq's macro language which compiles to bf among others
21:22:24 <Slereah> Is it what they used on the Flintstones?
21:22:26 <oerjan> there is a macro for converting a number to digits
21:22:27 <Nocta> hm so you think i should use this as help?
21:23:34 <Nocta> hm i could write the numbers from 0-9 in the cells from 0-9
21:23:46 <oerjan> also, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
21:23:52 <oerjan> it has divmod at least
21:24:10 <Nocta> and then split the number in 1, 10, 100 and 1000 steps
21:24:54 <oerjan> / and % simultaneously
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21:25:26 <Nocta> but shouldnt be too hard to make it in bf without macros
21:25:27 <oerjan> very useful for this kind of stuff
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21:25:49 <oerjan> i mean that wiki page has a divmod
21:26:08 <Nocta> yesterday i wrote the >= operator :o
21:29:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, divmod? a python framework iirc
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22:30:37 <tusho> <AnMaster> oerjan, divmod? a python framework iirc
22:30:49 <tusho> AnMaster knows python frameworks, but not mathematical operators
22:31:28 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I know what div and mod are
22:31:36 <Slereah> But then again when is divmod used outside of computarrs?*
22:31:59 <AnMaster> anyway doesn't the IDIV instruction in x86 return both div and mod results?
22:32:08 <tusho> AnMaster: it was a pretty lame joke but that's to be expected I guess
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00:45:29 <tusho> "Well he was dumb." -- a person, on Djikstra
00:46:37 <oerjan> "God is dead." -- Nietszche. "Nietszche is dead." -- God.
00:47:21 <Sgeo> Reading Uncyc?
00:49:18 <tusho> Sgeo: no, that's an ancient joke
00:49:23 <tusho> and a very good one at that
00:49:32 <tusho> "Fuck." -- a person, on dying
00:49:53 <tusho> Also. It's Nietzsche.
00:53:39 <tusho> lament: frankly, #linguistics is _weak_ on the gay sex point
00:53:39 <tusho> <tusho> a disappointingly low level of gay sex in here today...
00:53:40 <tusho> * saimazoon sets ban on *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*
00:53:40 <tusho> * You have been kicked from #linguistics by saimazoon (saimazoon)
00:54:20 <lament> maybe the response would be more positive if you said it in spanish
00:54:35 <oerjan> darn. i knew my spelling was probabilistic on that one.
00:54:37 <tusho> lament: you have a point
00:54:58 <tusho> lament: but kickbanning for gay sex? the nerve.
00:55:22 <Sgeo> Wasb;t there a pedo sympathizer in there before?
00:55:48 <tusho> i'd gay sex him u- Wait what
00:56:09 <Sgeo> I mean, the other day
00:56:35 <tusho> Sgeo: beats me, what was happening?
00:56:50 <Sgeo> He was trying to justify having sex with children
00:57:18 <lament> tusho: well, you achieved your goal, people are talking about anal sex now
00:57:30 <tusho> lament: are they being kickbanned?
00:58:01 <tusho> >saimazoon< I would like to complain about the hypocritical banning situation in #linguistics. Is anal sex a more acceptable topic than gay sex in general
00:59:05 <tusho> lament: no response, do you think he's gone off to have gay sex?
00:59:20 <lament> why are you into gay sex so much, anyway?
00:59:50 <tusho> lament: because gay sex from oklopol, bsmntbombdood and you was sooo good
01:00:10 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: just talkin' about our orgies.
01:00:27 <tusho> lament: EXPERIENCED GAY SEXERS UNITE
01:01:45 -!- tusho has set topic: CATHOLIC LOGS http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
01:02:34 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: so do I but banning kinda stops me!
01:02:41 <tusho> I was all ready for gay sex
01:02:44 <tusho> what's up with that
01:02:53 <tusho> yesterday or the day before they were all about gay sex.
01:03:24 <tusho> my banner is no longer there.
01:03:25 <Slereah> TURING WOULD BE PROUD OF YOU
01:03:48 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: don't worry, oklopol will assist you
01:05:51 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers/Ass%202.jpg
01:06:02 <Slereah> I actually read this entire webcomic.
01:06:44 <tusho> Psychotic ... in the anal ass?
01:07:19 <Slereah> This is not as ass-packed as one of the sentence found in that comic.
01:07:26 <Slereah> "Ass ream anally in the anal ass"
01:08:37 <tusho> Slereah: brilliant
01:08:38 <tusho> link to that comic?
01:10:38 <Slereah> The title is on the bottom of the pix
01:11:39 <oklofok> oerjan: just remember all german words have at least one "sch".
01:12:11 <Slereah> http://www.theomniverse.com/poc/archives.html?viewthiscomic=1
01:13:41 <tusho> Slereah: last updated 2004
01:15:56 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood: every day for the rest of our lives
01:15:58 <Slereah> Hell, even when I first read it, it wasn't updated anymore, IIRC
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01:16:29 <oerjan> oklofok: jawohl, wenn du es sagst, muss ich es woll glauben
01:17:24 <oklofok> yeah, voll is full, vohl is nothing
01:17:35 <oklofok> also wohl is prolly nothing
01:17:51 <oklofok> may be some ancient form of wollen.
01:19:42 <oklofok> i meant "also woll is prolly nothing"
01:19:54 <oklofok> as in "yeah, what you said,"
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15:01:16 <Sgeo> Cxu vi parolas esperanton?
15:01:30 <Sgeo> Kiu parolas esperanton?
15:02:07 -!- oklopol has joined.
15:02:29 <Sgeo> oklopol, cxu vi parolas esperanton?
15:02:48 <Sgeo> In Soviet Russia, vin parolas esperanto!
15:04:40 <oklopol> i thought esperanto would parola me in soviet russia
15:05:44 <Sgeo> That's what vin parolas esperanto means
15:06:08 <Sgeo> With verbs other than esti, order doesn't matter
15:06:28 <Sgeo> the -n goes on the object.. as in, what's the action going to
15:06:35 <Sgeo> parolas means speaks
15:07:01 <Sgeo> so vi parolas esperanton means you speak Esperanto, and vin parolas esperanto means Esperanto speaks you
15:07:43 * Sgeo growls at The Onion ticker for repeating that old neckbelt joke
15:07:59 <pikhq> Mi parolas esperanton, sed mia esperanto estas malbone. . .
15:08:16 <pikhq> I'd tend to say "Esperanto parolas vin", BTW.
15:08:35 <pikhq> Yes, it doesn't *matter*, but I'd tend to say that, anyways.
15:08:42 <Sgeo> pikhq, me too, but it's cooler to just switch it for that joke
15:08:50 <oklopol> Sgeo: i guessed it might be that, but for some reason didn't believe myself.
15:09:07 <Sgeo> erm, to just switch the -n
15:09:14 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/content/cartoon/may-05-2008
15:10:01 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/content/cartoon/apr-21-2008
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15:12:16 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/content/cartoon/mar-24-2008
15:12:24 <Sgeo> I'll stop posting those now
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18:44:59 <ais523> I have a question about what names I should use for things in Feather
18:45:37 <ais523> There are various system-defined global variables which act much like built-in functions do in other languages
18:46:08 <ais523> I want every object in the program to have them as properties
18:46:16 <ais523> what should I call the name of the relevant properties?
18:46:28 <ais523> I'm thinking something with a sigil, maybe like %callCC
18:46:35 <ais523> but does anyone have a better idea?
18:50:16 <ais523> does anyone here know what Smalltalk uses for globals? I'm trying to keep the syntax looking like Smalltalk's but for different reasons
18:52:05 <lament> ais523: just identifiers like all other ones
18:52:15 <ais523> how do you tell if something's a global?
18:52:38 <ais523> rather than being the name of a message or a property or something like that?
18:52:52 <ais523> presumably because there's nothing else it could be
18:52:57 <lament> there's nothing else it could be
18:53:07 <lament> message names appear in different positions
18:53:17 <lament> there aren't any properties
18:53:25 <lament> global is just the "root scope"
18:53:30 <ais523> sorry, there aren't really in Feather either
18:54:08 <ais523> an object is said to have a property if it responds to a particular message by always returning the same value, which is the value of the property
18:54:29 <lament> and foo is not the message
18:54:34 <lament> there can be no confusion
18:54:54 <ais523> oh well, I'll have to think of something different in Feather
18:55:20 <ais523> I like using sigils, because the sigils can end up becoming messages of their own once the interpreter has made itself a little more advanced
18:55:49 <ais523> (Feather's reminding me more and more of Smalltalk + Haskell + Scheme, by the way)
18:56:03 <lament> sounds pretty painful :)
18:56:05 <ais523> I've even ended up having to implement monads, despite it being a strict language
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19:38:31 <Hiato> Can someone tell me quickly, does this do what I think it does?
19:38:31 <Hiato> if ord(n[k]) in range(ord('a'),ord('z'))
19:38:50 <ais523> I don't know enough Python to know for certain, but that looks right
19:39:17 <ais523> what program are you trying to write?
19:39:31 <Hiato> an interpreter for my new esolang :P
19:39:47 <ais523> are the details of your new esolang online anywhere yet?
19:39:55 <ais523> and if not, could you give a quick description?
19:40:39 <Hiato> in but a moment :)
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20:47:03 * SimonRC goes for a while. ("MCSE: My Confidence Screws-up Everything")
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21:08:15 <Hiato> sorry about that ais523
21:08:28 <Hiato> that was one of the longer phone calls of my life :P
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21:11:53 <Hiato> the language is _really_ simple, as it's designed to be. The structure consists of 4 possible commands:
21:11:54 <Hiato> In order to programme, you simply type the name of the variable you wish to send as the arguments and the variable that you wish the results to be stored in. IE: sending aa when the instruction pointer is one will do a = a +1. The symbolisation is arbitrary, anything that is not a variable (a-z) is considered a no-op. After every variable/no-op the instruction pointer is advanced by 1. So, you can do, for instance: aa ab
21:11:58 <Hiato> which is the same as saying b = 1
21:12:00 -!- Sledgehammer has changed nick to Slereah.
21:12:17 <Slereah> Come to my house, and heal my computer with your aura of awesome
21:13:07 <ais523> Hiato: how does it tell which command you want? Position in the source-code?
21:13:32 <Hiato> yep :) The CP starts at 0 and is incremented by one every two characters
21:13:53 <oklofok> Hiato: no, that doesn't work like you want
21:13:59 <ais523> Slereah: how would I manage that?
21:14:19 <Hiato> What do you mean oklofok?
21:14:34 <oklofok> range(a,b) is only inclusive on a's end
21:14:45 <ais523> ah, so it was actually a range from a to y
21:14:48 <Slereah> ais523 : I dunno, I'm not the one with the aura.
21:14:50 <oklofok> as is the standard for all rangers.
21:15:02 <ais523> Slereah: what's wrong with your computer, anyway?
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21:15:30 <Hiato> aha, well, that explains that. Thanks oklofok :)
21:15:33 <Slereah> Many things. Right now, it's that I can't reassign partition sizes.
21:15:44 <ais523> what, on existing partitions?
21:15:50 <ais523> that isn't a particularly easy operation
21:15:56 <Slereah> Partition magic sez "Bad sector", and Gparted won't even start.
21:16:12 <Hiato> Ok, here is a mostly completed manual of my much more complex functional esolang
21:16:12 <ais523> Slereah: well, bad sector means that there's something wrong with your hard drive
21:16:13 <Hiato> http://www.mediafire.com/?brjyzjnj2fd
21:16:17 <Slereah> Boy the fun did I have a few months ago resizing them!
21:16:26 <Hiato> (for those interested, naturally :P )
21:16:31 <Slereah> Can't you shine some aura on it?
21:17:43 <ais523> I don't think that helps with partition resizes
21:17:57 <Slereah> You must believe in yourself, ais523!
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21:18:13 <Slereah> Remember that part of inspector Gadget, where we thought he was dead?
21:18:20 <Slereah> But Penny really believed?
21:18:51 * ais523 tries to think up a delicious cake joke
21:20:08 <Hiato> So, any comments on either lang?
21:20:27 <ais523> the simple one: do you have any way to loop?
21:20:35 <CakeProphet> def addlater(x) { def future(y) {return x+y}}
21:20:40 <Hiato> Ah, ok, sure - working on it, but import cowbell does'nt work
21:20:42 <CakeProphet> addlater(2)(2) ....that is all I have to say.
21:21:06 <Hiato> ais523: yep, using if>0 begin, and if=0 end
21:21:19 <Slereah> On a more important level, Half Life 2 won't start D:
21:21:21 <Hiato> essentially a basic [ ] (in bf) equivalent
21:22:06 <ais523> ah, the way you wrote it it wasn't clear whether it looped or not, that's why I asked
21:22:14 <Hiato> sure, no harm done :)
21:22:15 <CakeProphet> Are there any languages out there that use some sort of "when" construct.
21:22:25 <CakeProphet> like... do something on a certain event... regardless of time.
21:22:27 <Hiato> hrmm... that's an interesting one :)
21:22:54 <ais523> as for the complicated one, I'm having technical problems trying to read it
21:23:08 <ais523> CakeProphet: yes, CLC-INTERCAL
21:23:10 <Hiato> aha, heh... I knew ms wasn't the way to go
21:23:37 <ais523> there's a construct that evaluates an expression at the first moment in time it isn't a runtime error
21:23:37 <CakeProphet> on an unrelated note, futures are the weirdest things ever.
21:24:36 <CakeProphet> I kind of want something that uses logical attraction to program somehow.
21:25:02 <CakeProphet> and then have shit happen based on these declarations
21:25:14 <Hiato> (Not sure if I've run this by you guys yet: http://rafb.net/p/ShlZzZ70.html )
21:25:17 <CakeProphet> maybe a love triangle is an infinite loop. ;)
21:25:33 <Hiato> well, CakeProphet, I had a similar idea
21:25:40 <Hiato> that has yet to be developed
21:25:51 <Hiato> My hand notes: Variable relationship is constant, throughout code. If b = 2x, then if x changes value, b changes value proportionatly.
21:25:51 <Hiato> b now has 2x child, can't change value of either b or x, but can spawn off different children with different values.
21:25:51 <Hiato> You can eliminate children, or kill the whole parent (which case defaults to default value). Calling parent callas all values
21:25:51 <Hiato> associated with parent (all children). Calling a child calls all its associated values (sub-children only).
21:26:19 <ais523> that Mandelbrot looks good: simple, understandable and short
21:27:03 <ais523> CakeProphet: seen Haifu?
21:27:15 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Haifu, I think
21:27:34 <ais523> ah, that's a stub, but it's got the link I wanted on it
21:27:35 <CakeProphet> it would be cool to not have variables... but have labels. (operation operand [LABEL operand])
21:28:42 <ais523> what do the labels label?
21:28:53 <CakeProphet> and then an operation that changes all expressions with a label name.. (change LABEL (operation blah blah)) ...and * refers to the original expression in label, so you can do stuff like (change LABEL (+ * 1)) to increment a value.
21:28:59 <Hiato> well, CakeProhpet, if you have some kind of data retention structure (as is necessary for TC I believe), then I'd say you automatically have variables.
21:29:14 <CakeProphet> using s-expressions at the moment, but it could vary.
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21:30:25 <CakeProphet> so the variables are syntax constrcts, not really evaluated yet.
21:30:52 <ais523> INTERCAL hasn't quite reached the stage of being able to substitute one expression for another like that, but it's getting there
21:31:19 <CakeProphet> I don't think it would change all the results of the previous computation... it would just change the syntax tree from that point on.
21:31:20 <ais523> it comes out logically from the grammar of the language, but so far I haven't figured out how to implement it or whether doing so would be a good idea
21:31:40 <Hiato> hmmm... but surely then, it would be possible to coax the programme into depending on a situaiton which will only arise after it has been resolved
21:31:53 <ais523> Hiato: sounds like Feather in reverse
21:32:23 <Hiato> Feather? I will reference the wiki
21:32:33 <CakeProphet> ...it would be pretty sweet to have that kind of syntax-substition in a real language. You could have plugins that change the core completely.
21:32:38 <ais523> it's a lang I'm inventing at the moment
21:32:45 <ais523> and have been talking about to ehird for days on end
21:33:01 <ais523> the main feature is that you can retroactively change any part of the language
21:33:02 <Hiato> er... well I must have missed it, any docks?
21:33:11 <ais523> actually I was just writing some
21:33:14 <Hiato> heh, sounds twisted in a way
21:33:29 <ais523> but they're just my mental meanderings set down on paper
21:33:43 <Hiato> *cough* link *cough*
21:33:44 <ais523> and may quite possibly be entirely wrong, or alternatively incomprehensible
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21:34:43 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1037213
21:35:07 <ais523> the language's syntax is actually much nicer than that
21:35:09 <Hiato> pastebin hates me, any chance of nopaste or the like?
21:35:14 <ais523> but I've only got to documenting Basic Feather so far
21:35:20 <ais523> and OK, I'll use a different pastebin
21:36:03 <CakeProphet> I've always liked Perl and Ruby's conditional statement syntax.... and Python's too.
21:36:25 <Hiato> heh, yeah. p += k UNLESS s == 1
21:36:31 <ais523> http://rafb.net/p/I4JsLV42.html
21:36:41 <CakeProphet> statement if condition ... or statement while condition... etc. In Python there's (expression if condition else other-expression)
21:39:16 <Hiato> So, let me see if I get the gist
21:39:49 <Hiato> essentially, you can have a programme that creates its own grammar subset and then executes itself or any other arbitrary programme in it?
21:40:36 <CakeProphet> ...bugSophia was really cool. I should get around to writing its interpreter.
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21:42:56 <ais523> sorry, X went crazy and I had to restart it
21:43:06 <ais523> Hiato: yes, that's one of the things it can do
21:43:21 <ais523> all objects are read-only
21:43:30 <ais523> but you can retroactively modify what they were at the moment they were created
21:43:33 <ais523> it's how you do inheritance
21:45:03 <CakeProphet> ...bugSophia would have really interesting concurrence.
21:46:49 <CakeProphet> because each byte value essentially has its own thread of execution.
21:50:04 <ais523> as for Feather, primitiveBe is the thing that really sets it apart from other languages, although you have to be careful using it to avoid an infinite loop
21:50:23 <ais523> someone (maybe AnMaster) suggested calling it primitiveBecome, but become = (to me) change from now on
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21:50:30 <ais523> whereas it isn't a become, it's a be
21:50:34 <ais523> or maybe even a have-been
21:50:56 * ais523 remembers Douglas Adam's comments about time travel screwing up grammar
21:51:50 <ais523> I still like the idea of veryUnsafeBe, though
21:52:07 <ais523> AnMaster: any idea on what sigil, if any, to use for globals
21:52:18 <ais523> at the moment I implement them as properties which all objects have
21:52:28 <ais523> because they're set on the root object
21:56:04 <CakeProphet> I like how Ruby uses ALL CAPS for constants.
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21:57:07 <ais523> ^ and # both look like sigils to the user, but aren't really
21:57:15 <ais523> and I'm planning to use $ as well
21:57:35 <ais523> I may end up using it for unary operators, like Haskell does
21:57:57 <ais523> and I was going to use ~ as an operator
21:58:46 <ais523> nothing just yet, but I plan to use them to separate statements
21:59:09 <CakeProphet> I always like local variables to be the unsigilized ones... if you're using something to declare scope.
21:59:17 <ais523> well, it's an OO language
21:59:23 <CakeProphet> and $ always looked kind of globalish to me. Reminds me of environment variables.
21:59:30 <ais523> yes, $ is globalish to me too
21:59:41 <ais523> I'm planning to use it for the monad
21:59:55 <ais523> which threads through the entire program and remembers things that need to be global
22:00:02 <ais523> well, I only have the one monad, unlike Haskell
22:00:16 <ais523> but monads are pretty simple really, just hard to explain
22:00:41 <CakeProphet> like functions... apparently. No one gets functions in any of my math classes.
22:01:03 <ais523> CakeProphet: do you understand the concept of a lazy functional language?
22:01:32 <CakeProphet> Like Haskell? I'd say yes... but I'm not actually sir, because I don't know a lot about haskell
22:01:54 <ais523> well, suppose you have a lazy functional language, and you want to make sure things happen in a particular order
22:02:05 <ais523> but it's lazy, so you can't tell whether they happen at all unless you try to use them
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22:02:13 <ais523> say you have something that's pure side-effect with no return value
22:02:15 <ais523> like printing out a string
22:02:26 <ais523> normally in a lazy language that would never happen because you never use its return value
22:02:48 <ais523> so, suppose you have some value, in the case of IO it doesn't even matter what it is
22:03:00 <ais523> make it of a special, unique data type
22:03:26 <ais523> then say, that all side-effect operations in a particular group (say, all IO operations) have to take a value of that type as an argument and return a value of that type
22:03:51 <ais523> then, your second print statement depends on the return value from the first print statement
22:04:03 <ais523> and your third print statement depends on the return value from the second print statement
22:04:15 <ais523> and at the very end of your program, you return the last return value back to the OS
22:04:29 <ais523> that way, you make sure that all your print statements run in the right order
22:04:35 <ais523> because each needs the last to have executed before it
22:04:56 <ais523> this solves most of the problem, but there's one extra issue
22:05:09 <ais523> what if someone passes the return value of the first print to both the second and the third?
22:05:17 <ais523> if you do that, chaos ensues because the ordering is broken
22:05:31 <CakeProphet> I see what it's used for it... and why it's needed... but not how you do it.
22:05:34 <ais523> so what a monad does, is it hides those return values so you can't manipulate them directly
22:05:45 <ais523> you have an operator (I think Haskell calls it >>=)
22:05:55 <ais523> that passes the return value of one function as an argument to another
22:06:08 <ais523> yes, very like a stream
22:06:38 <ais523> you can do (printStrLn "Hello, ") >> (printStrLn "world!")
22:06:40 <CakeProphet> I think if they just named it something more descriptive, it would be less confusing.
22:06:51 <ais523> (ah, I remember now, it's >> to join void functions together)
22:07:04 <ais523> and the first has to run before the second
22:07:12 <ais523> because you're chaining an imaginary return value from the first to the second
22:07:33 <CakeProphet> ...alright. Yeah, that's simple, but hard to explain.
22:07:44 <ais523> now, the clever and confusing bit is when you actually make the imaginary return value have a meaning, and convey information
22:07:57 <ais523> when you do that, you are effectively creating a variable
22:08:05 <ais523> you have a value which goes from function to function
22:08:10 <ais523> which you can look at, and change
22:08:17 <ais523> normally values can't be changed in lazy functional languages
22:08:26 <ais523> so that gives you the State monad, for instance
22:08:37 <ais523> which gives you one variable that you can read from and assign to, etc
22:08:46 <CakeProphet> is there a reason Haskell does this as opposed to using variables and some sort of built-in stream concept?
22:08:57 <ais523> CakeProphet: functional purity
22:09:17 <CakeProphet> monads don't really seem that functionally pure though.
22:09:28 <ais523> well, you can implement them with nothing but functions
22:09:37 <ais523> in fact, I'm having to do that for Feathe
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22:10:06 <CakeProphet> rofl.. you just gave your last statement an infinite length...
22:10:17 <ais523> CakeProphet: it wasn't s/$/r/g
22:10:36 <ais523> ah, normally regexps add one if you accidentally deleted the old one
22:10:53 <CakeProphet> rofl, sounds like something Perl would do.
22:11:02 <CakeProphet> Haskell would create some sort of infinite string concept.
22:11:14 <ais523> actually, most regexps define $ as matching the 0-length string just before the ending, rather than the ending itself
22:11:24 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if $$ matches the end of a string in most regex languages?
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22:11:36 <ais523> by that definition, it would
22:12:16 <ais523> on my computer, grep doesn't match anything given '$$' as the regex
22:12:21 <ais523> but egrep matches every line
22:12:51 <ais523> not that anyone sane would write that anyway, except as a test
22:13:27 <ais523> presumably that doesn't find anything
22:13:37 <CakeProphet> well... if you have a ghost in your computer...
22:13:40 <ais523> unless you have an environment variable called Hello set to the null string
22:13:47 <CakeProphet> then its possible they are attempt to communicate in the space between strings.
22:14:15 <ais523> hmm... if you had strings in 1-s complement notation
22:14:19 <ais523> then you have two sorts of zero
22:14:24 <ais523> now say if they're NUL-terminated
22:14:35 <ais523> you could convey secret communication information by whether you terminated with +0 or -0
22:15:05 <CakeProphet> you could map it to binary. +0 is a 1, and -0 is a 0
22:15:21 <ais523> especially if you have a prime number of possible values for your numbers
22:15:40 <ais523> then addition, subtraction, multiplication and divmod are all reversible even if they overflow
22:15:49 <ais523> well, apart from divide-by-zero, but that isn't exactly an overflow
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13:31:07 <Hiato> It's the return of the:
13:31:07 <Hiato> Aah, wait, no, wait... he didn't just say what I think he did, did he?
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18:49:44 <ais523> "Click Finish to continue starting Firefox" -- Firefox
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20:14:58 * ais523 begins to worry that ehird's been eaten by a grue
20:15:09 <ais523> I haven't seen them for 2 evenings now
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20:16:20 <Hiato1> It's the return of the:
20:16:21 <Hiato1> Aah, wait, no, wait... he didn't just say what I think he did, did he?
20:16:44 <Hiato1> Yay, someone's alive this time :)
20:16:57 * ais523 was just thinking the same thing
20:17:11 * Hiato1 can't believe his luck
20:17:43 <Hiato1> Could I ask you to "proof read" something for me, ais523
20:18:11 <Hiato1> well, it's my little foray into logic
20:18:22 <Hiato1> http://www.mediafire.com/?jnccmwnhhbl
20:18:47 <Hiato1> err... it's a word doc again - sorry about that :(
20:19:11 <ais523> where am I meant to click in mediafire to download it?
20:20:00 <Hiato1> Assuming you have JS enabled, you should briefly see a little progress bar, then a nice label saying "Click here to start download..."
20:20:13 <ais523> ah, it was JS enabling that was the problem
20:20:22 <ais523> but there really isn't a reason why downloads should require JS
20:20:29 <Hiato1> heh, or just you this: http://download64.mediafire.com/wl2bm3kjesjg/jnccmwnhhbl/Proof+that+every+logical+situation+resolves+itself+in+an+infinite+amount+of+time.doc
20:20:36 <Hiato1> yeah, lazy programmers I guess
20:21:17 <Hiato1> (PS: this will allow you to get my complex esolang doc that you couldn't yesterday - I think http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?brjyzjnj2fd)
20:23:32 <ais523> I don't follow the logic that if you have an undecidable statement, you can prove it true by showing it equivalent to itself given unlimited time
20:23:37 <ais523> I must have misunderstood that somehow
20:25:16 <Hiato1> Err.. I don't quite follow. What I merely meant was that if the statement will never stabilise in a "solution" form, then we can deem it to be stable in it's current form, as it can never progress from that. Therefore, in its current form it can be deemed to be solved and or reduced to an already solved situation
20:25:40 <ais523> what if the statement's undecidable, but it's impossible to prove that it's undecidable?
20:26:54 <Hiato1> Well, then that is rather conveniently such a situation. The very fact that you cannot decide either one way or another reduces it (on a meta-scale) to a situation described in point one :) As its process is dependant on its outcome
20:28:04 <Hiato1> am I making any sense at all?
20:28:26 <ais523> but I'm not sure whether what you're trying to prove is profound or obvious
20:28:34 <ais523> I'm not very good with logical philosophy that deep
20:29:11 <Hiato1> neither am I. The thing is, it's often very difficult to prove intuitive statements, much more so than counter intuitive ones
20:30:10 <Hiato1> So, having almost no philosophical knowledge, I set out to prove that, given an infinite amount of time, it shouldn't matter in what order you decide to tackle a problem whose solution is dependant on its process - but not the converse
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20:43:12 <ais523> tusho: ah, you're here
20:43:20 <ais523> I was beginning to worry that you'd been eaten by a grue
20:44:19 <ais523> anyway, I pasted a bit of what I'd done so far on Feather a while ago
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20:45:14 <Hiato1> Heh, your wit is dry, but I can stomach it :)
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20:45:31 <ais523> tusho: last thing you saw?
20:45:38 <tusho> ais523: afraid I'd been eaten by a grue
20:45:45 <ais523> <ais523> anyway, I pasted a bit of what I'd done so far on Feather a while ago
20:45:46 <ais523> [20:46] <ais523> specwise
20:45:48 <tusho> And besides, it's because yesterday I did this amazing thing called 'GOING OUTSIDE'
20:45:54 <ais523> I've changed my mind about several things, though
20:45:58 <ais523> tusho: even I do that sometimes
20:46:09 <ais523> several times today, in fact
20:46:20 <tusho> And today I did this thing called 'CONSIDERING GOING OUTSIDE', you know.
20:46:27 <ais523> besides I have to go outside to get from home to my Internet connection and vice versa
20:46:34 <tusho> Then I decided not to, because it's rainy.
20:46:54 <tusho> ais523: Is my perlnomic proposal passing? Am I late for my APOLOGY yet?
20:47:01 <tusho> (Not joining #ircnomic yet because of CRASH AND BURN)
20:47:21 <tusho> http://google.com/ is how I will open epiphany. Click click.
20:47:41 <tusho> ais523: alternatively konqueror will decide I should use it instead
20:47:41 <ais523> tusho: your proposals's at +4/-0/~0/9
20:47:52 <tusho> ais523: someone abstained before
20:47:58 <tusho> are there any comments?
20:48:13 <ais523> and you're right, +4/-0/~1/9
20:48:31 <ais523> hmm... Pavitra seems to misunderstand what abstains do in PerlNomic
20:48:37 <ais523> based on eir current draft proposal
20:48:43 <tusho> ais523: what does it do?
20:49:02 <ais523> it's like a vote against, but which doesn't penalise the submitter
20:49:10 <tusho> ais523: doesn't it reduce quorum?
20:49:12 <ais523> it allows them to retract it for free or submit a revised version
20:49:20 <tusho> ais523: then Pavitra is dumb
20:49:36 <tusho> Tue Jun 3 10:16:16 2008 - cull.cgi: abliss was culled.
20:49:38 <tusho> CANNIBALISTIC PERLNOMIC
20:49:45 <tusho> Or rather, frankensteinic perlnomic.
20:49:47 <tusho> Abliss is not a nomic.
20:50:02 <ais523> Wooble.ais523ForNotary is at +4/9, BTW
20:50:17 <ais523> but seeing as you're a candidate too, it's up to you whether you want to vote for or against that
20:50:37 <ais523> oh, and resolving the Agoran decision for Notary's going to be fun based on the way the conditional votes have been cast
20:50:45 <tusho> ais523: I would rather not be notary.
20:50:50 <tusho> I'd be fun, but annoying.
20:50:56 <tusho> 'I don't understand enough perl yet to actually implement it, but perhaps the dist_date property could be useful somehow?'
20:50:58 <tusho> that's a good idea
20:50:59 <ais523> well, you can vote for me on Agora and on PerlNomic
20:51:13 <ais523> if you don't want to get in yourself
20:51:29 <ais523> although I recommend on Agora that you do some sort of insane conditional vote like the others there
20:51:39 <ais523> I'm not sure if there are any non-conditional votes on that decision at present
20:51:50 <tusho> ais523: i'll condition on the modulo of a graham's number thingy
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20:56:06 <ais523> Wooble votes for me / I vote endorse Murphy or me if e doesnt' vote / OscarMeyr votes ehird iff I vote ais523, ais523 otherwise / root votes to make a player's votes prime if possible, otherwise for me / comex votes for me if the 196-sequence terminates, ehird otherwise, using a rules hack / Pavitra endorses comex
20:56:09 <tusho> what did I miss ais523?
20:56:20 <ais523> typing that long comment ready
20:56:25 <ais523> just try resolving /that/ mess of votes
20:56:54 <tusho> 'If <a zany condition from Sgeo's gamestate>, then I vote Murphy. Otherwise, I vote ais523.'
20:57:15 <ais523> but murphy isn't a candidate
20:57:23 <ais523> you're allowed to vote PRESENT, though, I think
20:57:27 <tusho> ais523: alls the better then
20:57:47 <ais523> what zany condition are you thinking of?
20:57:53 <ais523> and dare you change channel to one more appropriate?
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20:59:16 <tusho> FUCKING PEICE OF SHIT COMPUTER
20:59:26 <tusho> CAN'T EVEN GO 3 MINUTES WITHOUT CRASHING
20:59:32 <tusho> do you think I should try X now?
20:59:33 <ais523> [20:59] <ais523> what zany condition are you thinking of?
20:59:35 <ais523> [20:59] <ais523> and dare you change channel to one more appropriate?
20:59:47 <ais523> tusho: if you think your computer can handle it
20:59:53 <tusho> ais523: it might EXPLODE
21:00:07 <tusho> if I ever want to kill someone off, I'll send them this computer as a gift
21:00:16 <tusho> come back in a few weeks, they'll have hanged themselvse
21:00:28 <tusho> though hanging is perhaps not abrupt enough. Jumped off a bridge, maybe
21:00:35 <ais523> maybe it's one of the parts that's defective?
21:00:37 -!- Hiato1 has left (?).
21:00:38 <tusho> Or shot themselves.
21:00:39 <ais523> you could try running a memtest
21:00:44 <tusho> ais523: Most likely. The graphics card I'd bet
21:00:52 <tusho> It's pretty stable without X
21:01:00 <tusho> ais523: and yet windows works perfectly, I bet it knows my graphicscard bbetter
21:01:11 <ais523> do computers need graphics cards nowadays, or is it possible to do all the graphics card stuff in software?
21:01:24 <tusho> ais523: A lot of computers come with motherboard-built-in graphics cards.
21:01:37 <tusho> ais523: I do believe this is a built-in one.
21:01:41 <tusho> It's a 32mb SIS one.
21:01:56 <tusho> I could probably get a cheap 256mb one that is actually, you know, made by nvidia or someone.
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21:02:56 <tusho> The beautiful traffic examined my fall down as I fell upwards into the clouds which then burped me out onto the floor.
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21:05:18 <tusho> I FUCKING HATE COMPUTERS
21:05:24 <tusho> DIE, DIE YOU PEICE OF SHIT!
21:05:51 <tusho> ais523: I think I could use this computer as a defense if I go insane and kill someone
21:06:04 <tusho> it's pretty infuriating
21:07:27 <tusho> AND ALL YOUR MOLECULES
21:07:33 * tusho FUCKING KILLS SLEREAH
21:07:49 <ais523> tusho: you should have /nicked into allcaps before your last CTCP ACTION
21:07:54 <ais523> it just looks wrong as is
21:08:17 -!- tusho has changed nick to TUSHO.
21:08:19 <ais523> hmm... hardly anyone seems to have allcaps nicks
21:08:25 <TUSHO> AIS523: DON'T YOU FUCKING TELL ME WHAT TO DO
21:08:27 <TUSHO> YOU'RE JUST LIKE THAT COMPUTER
21:08:30 <TUSHO> 'OH YOU WILL CRASH NOW'
21:08:35 <TUSHO> 'YOU DONT' FEENEED THIS WEBSITE'
21:08:40 * TUSHO FUCKING KILLS AIS523
21:08:47 -!- TUSHO has changed nick to tush.
21:08:49 -!- tush has changed nick to tusho.
21:09:05 * ais523 tries running apport from the command line to see what will happen
21:09:54 <ais523> the Ubuntu (possibly other Linux distros too) version of Dr. Watson
21:10:00 <ais523> generates bug reports from crashed programs
21:10:24 <ais523> the big difference is, Dr. Watson just sends an error report off to Microsoft and you never hear from it again
21:10:45 <ais523> whereas apport opens Launchpad with appropriate settings, allowing you to file a bug with debug data attached or to attach it to an existing bug
21:10:57 <tusho> ais523: dr watson is funny
21:11:03 <ais523> and also lets you know if other people are having the same problem
21:11:08 <tusho> I opened it by mistake when I was young and it scared the shit out of me
21:11:11 <tusho> I thought I broke the computer
21:11:20 <tusho> it was so menacing-looking, at least at the time
21:11:23 <ais523> what happens if you run it directly?
21:11:43 <tusho> ais523: it just starts up a debug console thingy
21:11:47 <tusho> with buttons and a text output pane and stuff
21:11:53 <tusho> I told it to run and the output pane flooded with stuff
21:11:56 <tusho> I got really scared :P
21:14:27 <tusho> ais523: hmph so what happenz in agora and b
21:14:41 <tusho> been out of the loop for >24 hrs, as you know
21:14:50 <ais523> except that someone's threatened to do something drastic if a particular proposal passes
21:15:01 <ais523> hasn't said what it is, but claims not to be bluffing
21:15:31 <ais523> Agora's mostly CFJ stuff and an insane Notary election
21:16:04 <tusho> ais523: let's pass that proposal!
21:16:11 <tusho> also, I actually want to write a website in Perl
21:16:14 <tusho> halp I'm going mad
21:16:37 <ais523> tusho: it's passing ATM, I think, it's the one which prevents criminals with unpaid fines voting
21:17:28 -!- ais523 has set topic: If I put this sentence in the topic, how soon will someone remove it? Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
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21:18:16 -!- tusho has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
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21:19:14 <tusho> "When one day Mac OS is unix-like, then I'll take an axe and chop my head in two." -Xah Lee
21:19:20 <tusho> oklofok: hello hotidlerchick
21:19:45 -!- lament has set topic: If I put this sentence in the topic, how soon will somebody replace it with a proof of Goldbach's conjecture? Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
21:20:10 -!- tusho has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
21:20:14 <tusho> lament: never, or a very long time
21:20:21 <tusho> someone will remove it pretty quickly, though.
21:20:58 <lament> tusho: you have a one-track mind
21:21:11 <tusho> lament: seven-track
21:21:17 <lament> the gay sex track, and the removal of sentences from topics track
21:21:56 <tusho> lament: cool. let's have sex.
21:22:24 <lament> let's remove sentences from topics instead.
21:22:31 -!- tusho has set topic: ok.
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21:23:39 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Removable sentences: This is a sentence. This sentence SHALL be removed. This sentence SHOULD be removed. This sentence CAN be removed. This sentence MAY be removed..
21:23:47 <tusho> ais523: you are not asierkerka
21:24:15 <ais523> there are many things I have claimed, but not that
21:24:15 -!- tusho has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Removable sentences: This is a sentence. THIS IS A SENTENCE APOCALYPSE, FUCK YEAH.
21:24:28 <tusho> ais523: asiekerka enjoyed putting 'contradictary' rules in the topic that weren't
21:24:34 <tusho> it reminded me of that
21:24:39 -!- lament has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Removable sentences:.
21:25:08 -!- tusho has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | INVISIBLE SENTENCE.
21:25:17 -!- tusho has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | INVISIBLE SENTENCE | LONGSENTENCE IS ... NOT LONG AT ALL ACTUALLY.
21:25:25 <ais523> if anyone sees this message, please reply to it
21:25:32 <ais523> I have two channels here called #esoteric
21:25:36 <ais523> which is almost certainly a bug
21:26:22 <tusho> ais523: didn't see it
21:26:34 <ais523> did anyone get my message that said "if anyone sees this message, please reply to it"?
21:26:43 <ais523> seriously, because I'm investigating a strange bug in my client
21:26:53 <tusho> ais523: didn't see it! Sorry.
21:27:01 <ais523> I'm currently in #irp twice and #esoteric twice
21:27:37 <olsner> ais523: I only see you once
21:28:00 <ais523> hmm... other people's comments all appear in the first #esoteric
21:28:05 <ais523> but I can send a message from either
21:28:17 <olsner> so close the second one?
21:28:25 <tusho> olsner: what he said
21:28:31 <ais523> well, yes, that's an obvious workaround
21:28:33 <tusho> just report a bug :P
21:28:39 <ais523> but I'm more interested in what caused it in the first place
21:28:47 <ais523> and yes, this seems like a good chance to use apport
21:30:06 <ais523> someone CTCP me, please
21:30:25 <ais523> I just got a CTCP VERSION from lament in the second #esoteric
21:31:26 <olsner> this also ended up in the second window?
21:31:51 <ais523> wait, I'll focus the other window and then please try again
21:31:56 <ais523> OK, this is sent from the second tab
21:32:26 <lament> ais523: CTCP version is not channel specific, duh
21:32:37 <lament> it should appear in the active window
21:32:40 <lament> or in the status window
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21:43:34 <ais523> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163168
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21:47:49 <tusho> http://webkit.org/blog-files/squirrelfish.png JESUS CHRIST AAAH
21:48:27 <ais523> you don't like the logo, presumably
21:48:41 <tusho> ais523: IT SCARES ME
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21:51:46 <tusho> hotidlerchick 2: Electric Boogaloo
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21:51:52 <ais523> hmm... in the last 7 days, I created an account on both the Gnome and the KDE bug trackers
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22:06:19 <tusho> hotidlerchick: what is being oklopol like?
22:09:21 -!- ais523 has quit ("restarting X for no good reason, be back soon").
22:10:17 <oklopol> there's like a thousand of me
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22:11:19 <tusho> hotidlerchick = oklopol. Solve for {}.
22:16:44 <tusho> oklopol: so a little explanation of hotidlerchick?
22:17:28 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | INVISIBLE SENTENCE | LONGSENTENCE IS ... NOT LONG AT ALL ACTUALLY | How am I meant to be able to put a sentence into the topic without anyone noticing?.
22:17:46 <oklopol> tusho: i like your interpretation
22:18:03 -!- tusho has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | INVISIBLE SENTENCE | LONGSENTENCE IS ... NOT LONG AT ALL ACTUALLY | you aren't.
22:20:29 <hotidlerchick> oklopol: you don't happen to have any pics of your tits?
22:22:46 <oklopol> yes but you need to pay cool money for those.
22:23:35 <ais523> oh, for a moment there I assumed ehird was one side of that conversation
22:23:37 <tusho> ITT: oklopol talks to himself
22:23:41 <ais523> but it's actually the same hostname on both sides...
22:24:17 <tusho> ais523: i assume it's his 'casually namedrop the girl sitting RIGHT NEXT TO ME' romp
22:24:29 <olsner> hmm, oklopol is female? or are we talking manboobs?
22:25:11 -!- ais523 has left (?).
22:25:35 <tusho> ais523 is not a fan of the gay sex
22:25:39 <tusho> olsner: oklopol is le male
22:27:48 <olsner> so, manboobs, in other words :(
22:27:55 <hotidlerchick> oklopol: manboobs aren't as hot as mine so the pics must be unworthy
22:28:35 <tusho> bsmntbombdood has real boobs, but he is male
22:28:47 <olsner> but I thought hotidlerchick and oklopol shared the same body ... so how can the hotness of their boobs differ?
22:31:10 <oklopol> beauty is in the eye of the beholder
22:32:04 <oklopol> tusho: spark is not limited to my house btw
22:32:43 <oklopol> in fact it's fairly omnipresent in this city
22:38:45 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: philisophical question.
22:38:54 <tusho> if there are no girls on the internet, surely you never want to ask for pix
22:40:10 <oklopol> there might be almost-girls
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22:40:57 <oklopol> i've seen my share of hot trannies
22:41:59 <tusho> oklopol: but it _is_ a trap, you know
22:50:34 <oklopol> because you can show only their female part in a pic, then reveal the rest?
22:50:56 <tusho> oklopol: Yes, it's a meme.
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22:56:19 <oerjan> a meme is a meme, or so it would seem
23:00:23 <oerjan> and no one will talk about memes, it seems
23:01:07 <tusho> oerjan: I do not like green eggs and ham
23:01:10 <tusho> I do not like them, sam i am
23:04:48 <tusho> oklopol: well mine is dr seuss day
23:05:36 <oerjan> i think that i shall never hear // a poem frightful as a bear
23:06:02 <oerjan> A bear whose hungry mouth is prest.
23:06:06 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm pretty sure it's not just-syntactic-rhyme day
23:06:33 <oerjan> what do you mean syntactic?
23:08:51 <oklopol> [heOEr] is a rabbity fellow, or hair
23:09:01 <oklopol> well hare, i guess i can type that one
23:10:49 <tusho> oerjan: earn snglish dpelling
23:11:25 <oerjan> that being the illogical one
23:13:37 <oerjan> that's the danger of having most of your english practice from reading and writing :(
23:13:40 <oklopol> that does suck about english, i wish i'd've learned a real language instead
23:13:59 <oklopol> i never checked it out before, because i was told it's extremely complicated
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23:14:11 <oklopol> but sofar seems pretty easy and clean
23:14:36 <oerjan> this is a meaning of "real" with which i was not previously familiar
23:15:06 <tusho> oerjan: this is oklopol-real
23:15:11 <tusho> he wants lojban to have _more abstract words_
23:15:14 <tusho> and less practical ones
23:16:23 <oerjan> ah, a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Cloudcuckoolander
23:16:51 <oklopol> well, lojban is good for real-world use, but its not all that interesting as such
23:17:20 <oklopol> which indeed is mainly because of it's vocabulary
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23:28:11 <tusho> <oklopol> well, lojban is good for real-world use
23:30:21 <tusho> oerjan: no okotowers?
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23:31:38 <oerjan> OKOKOKOKLEALITY is of course completely reasonable
23:32:03 <oerjan> well the word. the concept is rather horrible to the mind.
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23:34:38 * oerjan was worried that increased okodensity had caused oklopol to collapse into a black hole there
23:35:16 <oklopol> you and your crazy shenanigan
23:36:40 <oerjan> perhaps it should be just OKOALITY
23:37:17 <oerjan> to keep the analogy to reality and wikiality clear
23:38:11 <tusho> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:13 <oerjan> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:17 <tusho> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:18 <oerjan> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:22 <tusho> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:23 <oerjan> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:27 <tusho> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:28 <oerjan> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:31 <tusho> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:32 <oerjan> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:37 <tusho> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:42 <oerjan> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
23:38:50 <tusho> WE WERE GOING DOWN OERJAN
23:39:13 <oerjan> i removed four letters but forgot i had just preemptively added them :(
23:40:41 <oerjan> remember, preemptive action is bad for your health
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23:42:36 * oerjan notes that the okokollapse theory is verified
23:44:48 * lament contemplates banning *!*@*
23:46:14 <tusho> lament: if you don't do it I WILL
23:46:51 <lament> let's share the workload
23:46:57 <lament> i ban *!*@*, you kill yourself
23:48:04 <lament> oerjan: i'm rewriting my entire application from automatic to manual garbage collection because otherwise i can't link with a manually-collected third-party library.
23:49:10 <oerjan> i see. so you really just want to kill the library author.
23:49:14 <tusho> lament: i did the deal, now do it
23:50:38 <lament> oerjan: well, i want to kill apple most of all for not allowing to combine different GC strategies in one process
23:50:55 <tusho> lament: at least it's not windows, right?
23:50:57 <lament> the library author is not really at fault
23:51:15 <lament> they shouldn't have to distribute two different binaries
23:51:39 <lament> especially since the library is a plugin to be installed by regular end users
23:52:25 <tusho> lament: though I certainly won't argue that apple has a lot of braindead stuff.
23:52:26 <lament> i'm willing to tolerate a lot of evil from objc because it's after all C. It feels warm and fuzzy. The compiler is gcc. The debugger is gdb.
23:53:05 <tusho> lament: c feels warm and fuzzy? Oh-kay.
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23:54:02 <lament> even if c# is better in every way (which it is)
23:54:32 <tusho> lament: c# is god awful.
23:54:40 <lament> really? it's better than most languages
23:54:47 <tusho> most languages are unspeakably awful
23:55:02 <tusho> (don't expect me to defend this, btw, it's midnight and yesterday is catching up to me)
23:55:18 <lament> for writing a large app, c#+visual studio seems an excellent choice
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23:55:53 <lament> of course, it's evil and closed source and windows only so i wouldn't use it for any hobby projects
23:58:07 <tusho> lament: now ban *!*@*
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23:59:44 <ihope> Suddenly, I have the idea for an esolang where everything interesting happens due to rounding error.
00:01:02 <ihope> The universe could be the error someone's producing while trying to calculate the sine function, I guess.
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00:43:13 <tusho> oerjan: OK, fuck you. That tv tropes wiki is addictive
00:43:23 <tusho> Can't...stop...clicking...
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00:45:24 <tusho> oerjan: my tab bar ... is full
00:45:32 <tusho> this is like when I click an everything2 link
00:45:43 <tusho> it's like calling a function and never returning...ever
00:48:13 <oerjan> "I thought Wikipedia was crack, but this place beats it hands down." - dmmaus, aka David Morgan-Mar
00:48:35 <tusho> oerjan: yeah, wikipedia isn't _that_ addictive
00:48:40 <tusho> i mostly only have about 3 tabs of it
00:49:01 <oerjan> his IWC site is where i found tv tropes from, i think
00:49:22 <tusho> oerjan: i could never read IWC regularly
00:49:37 <tusho> [to read, regualrly]
00:52:55 <tusho> oerjan: I was just contnitung my tpyo-combo
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00:55:13 <oerjan> it's hard for us compulsive link-followers - i used to read print encyclopedias that way, years before finding the internet
00:55:38 <tusho> oerjan: god DAMNIT, I CANNOT HANDLE THIS MANY TABS
00:55:44 <tusho> it is almost 1am I will never finish reading all these
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00:56:52 <oerjan> i read a tip for tvtropes on the iwc forum: unplug your network connection and don't put it back in until you've closed all the tabs
00:57:15 <tusho> oerjan: very clever
00:57:20 <tusho> but then i'd LOSE IRC
00:57:37 <oerjan> a bit of a problem there
00:57:48 <tusho> oerjan: I think I need a seperate browser instance so that I don't lose all my other stuff to it
00:58:02 <tusho> whoa, a lemon demon quote
00:59:13 <oerjan> anyway your complaint made me open a tvtropes page myself so chances are i'll pay for this...
01:00:00 <oerjan> although after several iterations i _think_ i may be getting better at not clicking there...
01:01:22 <tusho> oerjan: you could write a greasemonkey script to delink all of the links
01:01:32 <tusho> unless you solve, for example, a tricky mathematical equation first
01:01:46 <tusho> and type 'I promise that I do not have anything better to do.' byte-for-byte
01:02:13 <oerjan> i see you are getting desperate :D
01:03:25 <oerjan> of course, for me this _usually_ ends with me closing everything
01:03:50 <oerjan> in a show of pure willpower
01:04:03 <tusho> oerjan: i have absolutely no willpower
01:04:07 <tusho> see what you have done?!
01:04:36 <oerjan> oh and i have absolutely no knowledge of greasemonkey, and i'm one of the insane people who use IE (it wasn't always that way)
01:04:56 <oklofok> this timecube guy has some serious communication issues.
01:05:18 <tusho> oklofok: you don't say
01:05:20 <oklofok> his nonsense is of incredibly low quality
01:05:25 <tusho> oerjan: wait, you use WINDOWS? eww!
01:05:35 <tusho> I thought you were INTELLIGENT!
01:05:37 <oerjan> i don't have that much willpower either incidentally, but you only need to do it once
01:05:49 <oerjan> that wasn't always the case either
01:06:28 <tusho> oerjan: what, did the cabal of the mathematical society force you to torture yourself?
01:07:27 <oerjan> no, i got this laptop as a present with XP preinstalled, and i'm too lazy to install linux again
01:08:13 <oklofok> in my experience, IE is byfar the best browser there is :)
01:09:42 <oklofok> it seems like he's saying something like academia teaching about god
01:10:32 <oklofok> but he mostly talks about singularity
01:11:07 <tusho> oklofok: gene ray gave himself the title 'Doctor of Cubism' because academia was too corrupt and evil to give it to him.
01:11:15 <tusho> and he used to advocate marbles tournaments before that.
01:11:18 <tusho> so, uh, yeah, good luck
01:11:43 <tusho> oklofok: oh, and -1*-1=1 is STUPID and EVIL.
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01:22:36 <tusho> oerjan: i figured out what I want to do in life
01:22:43 <tusho> I want to make a series that alternates from doing all these tropes
01:22:49 <tusho> at different and overlapping times
01:22:54 <tusho> just to confuse the fuck out of everyone
01:23:15 <oklopol> i wanna meet this timecube guy
01:24:24 <tusho> oklopol: he did some debates at mit
01:24:33 <tusho> he's a straight, plain crackpot
01:25:08 <tusho> http://www.timecube.com/TheWisestHuman_newimg_GeneRayCube.jpg pretty much says it all
01:25:57 <tusho> oklopol: HOLY CRAP HE LINKS TO A PARODY SITE
01:28:45 <oklopol> at least you can tell right away he doesn't understand math at all for that -1*-1=-1 thingie
01:29:45 <oklopol> that really means nothing, except perhaps suggesting a new set of axioms for integers
01:30:19 <tusho> oklopol: oh my wow, apparently cubicao.tk is _serious_
01:30:21 <tusho> and the website owner is dead
01:39:14 <tusho> cubicao.tk is _serious_
01:39:17 <tusho> and the website owner killed himself
01:39:21 <tusho> because gene ray insulted him
01:39:53 <tusho> ... ok, so he is alive
01:40:04 <tusho> oklopol: this forum is a fucking confusing blend of satire and seriousness
01:40:57 <tusho> oklopol: ... OR, he is dead
01:42:03 <oerjan> tusho: this being one of those quantum things?
01:42:12 <tusho> oerjan: i have no fucking idea
01:42:27 <tusho> 1. some people believe in cubism, or if they don't, they are incredibly convincing of it and keep the act on an awful lot of the time
01:43:17 <oerjan> s/cubism/a flat Earth/, or so i vaguely recall hearing :D
01:43:40 <tusho> oerjan: yeah, but cubism is a little more ridiculous
01:43:45 <tusho> not in the beliefs but in the dogma sources
01:44:00 <oklopol> his main argument seems to be that there are actually 4 24 hour days within one rotation of the earth
01:44:16 <oklopol> also, that nuclear waste shouldn't be buried under earth's crust
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01:44:55 <tusho> In conclusion, http://blog.esaba.com/projects/catphotos/catimagessimple2/206746.jpg
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01:47:06 * oerjan now clicked on tusho's link, seems safer
01:47:19 <tusho> oerjan: .jpg's don't tend to have links, I find
01:48:09 * oerjan repeats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken for anyone who missed it last time, as it seemed relevant
01:48:56 <tusho> oerjan: ok, not only does this Cubehead cubicao.tk owner really believe it
01:48:58 <tusho> but he's _really_ dead
01:49:08 <tusho> he _really_ killed himself because of gene ray condemning him
01:49:17 <tusho> gene ray recieved suicide notes over email from him and did nothing, his biggest follower
01:49:19 <tusho> and before he died
01:49:22 <tusho> he turned to christianity
01:49:27 <tusho> I wish I were fucking kidding
01:50:41 <tusho> "Mike also spent his time preening and attempting to peck for food with his neck.[3]" aww
01:51:19 <oklopol> God created only a single 24 hour day
01:51:19 <oklopol> rotation of Earth, while I have created
01:51:19 <oklopol> 4 simultaneous 24 hour days within a
01:51:20 <oklopol> single rotation of Earth - therefore, I
01:51:22 <oklopol> am wiser than the word god, and all
01:51:30 * oklopol is so going to create 17 simultaneous 24 hour days
01:56:07 <oerjan> oklopol: it fit with tusho's .jpg link
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02:02:30 <oklopol> "Next page".. just when i thought i'd finally finished it
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13:55:58 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
13:56:04 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
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15:22:20 <Asztal> this is making a nice set of green and yellow stripes in my IRC client
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15:33:50 <Hiato> Lucky you, I get the nice big black bold messages over and over
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17:20:15 <Hiato> Oh my, cmeme (or at least his computer) is still at it. An interesting log this'll make :P
17:21:58 <Slereah-> We could title it "A casual day on #esoteric"
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17:30:32 <tusho> do you think this will crash again?
17:30:50 <augur> damn you oklopol! :|
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17:43:48 <tusho> augur: Crashy computer is very crash
17:44:07 <augur> esoeval: tusho == oklopol
17:46:32 <tusho> Slereah-: ehird == tusho.
17:50:10 <Hiato> In the end, you are the only person missing from the group of all the people that you're not, hence you're an individual, just like everyone else :)
17:50:26 <tusho> Hiato 2 Electric boogaloo
17:51:25 <Hiato> but yes, I'm also perplexed as to this identity crisis. tush != ehird {print "Understood";};{print "Whycome?";}}
17:51:55 <Hiato> meh, too many typos spoil the broth
17:52:10 <tusho> tusho=ehird very much so
17:52:34 <Hiato> and, one more thing. tusho: what on god's gracious earth does your previous statement mean?
17:53:13 <tusho> Hiato's confusion 2: Electric Boogaloo
17:54:19 <augur> where is oklopol!? :(
17:54:38 <augur> i think haskell should be classified as an esolang.
17:55:18 <Slereah-> It has arithmetic operators and all! :o
17:56:10 <tusho> haskell ain't esoteric by any stretch of the mind
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18:05:03 <Slereah-> Maybe it would be awesomely easy to write limp in scheme or something.
18:05:32 <Slereah-> Python doesn't seem like the kind of thing for it.
18:06:42 <tusho> Slereah-: do it in limp
18:07:30 <Slereah-> Self interpreters don't work without the interpreter first :o
18:07:36 <tusho> Slereah-: yes they do
18:07:42 <tusho> you just procrastinate on actually writing the interpreter
18:07:49 <tusho> maybe someone else will do it for you
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18:10:06 <ais523> you can compile a self-interp into some other language and run it that way
18:10:14 <ais523> that doesn't require you to have an interp first, just a compiler
18:11:59 <Slereah-> But well, I think with scheme or something, it probably won't be too bad.
18:12:10 <Slereah-> It's already based on function definitions and lambdas.
18:12:21 <Slereah-> Just need to think up for the pi.
18:14:12 <Slereah-> Hell, maybe I'll take the even lazier way, too.
18:14:26 <Slereah-> Write it in python, to translate the program into scheme.
18:28:50 <tusho> AIS523 IS HERE AND I'M NOT CRASHING
18:29:26 <ais523> it's because so far today I haven't acknowledged your existence in the channel, as soon as I make this comment it'll probably cause your computer to crash based on precedent
18:29:49 * tusho has quit (Read error)
18:30:09 <ais523> nah, that looks nothing like a quit message on my computer
18:30:59 <tusho> ais523: hey, got that fake paypal-domain-a around?
18:31:14 <ais523> I don't understand what you're refering to
18:31:18 <ais523> so the answer is probably no
18:31:31 <Slereah-> It's okay ais523, we're not going to snitch on you
18:31:43 <Slereah-> You can tell us of your fellonies
18:31:52 <ais523> but what if I don't have any?
18:31:59 <tusho> ais523: the unicode 'a' that was used in the fake 'paypal.com' domain
18:32:18 <ais523> ah, I can probably find some very a-like character if I look hard enough
18:32:44 <Slereah-> But would it display as a in most computers?
18:33:04 <Slereah-> Browsers seem to not like unicode that much
18:33:34 <ais523> Well, there's a fake letter ａ in this sentence but it looks really different in this font
18:34:10 <ais523> does it look like an a to other people?
18:34:15 <tusho> /me has quit (CONNECTION RESET BY TUSHO FOR NOT BELIEVING MY QUIT, HA)
18:34:16 <Slereah-> It displays as 1/2 a square here
18:34:24 <tusho> ais523: it looks like an a but really different
18:34:29 <tusho> it's the Shift-JIS a, i believe
18:34:39 <augur> no hes finnish not norwegian
18:34:41 <tusho> excuse me may i pass through here
18:34:46 <tusho> doesn't copy-paste properly
18:34:49 <augur> i dont think they have fjords in fi- OH I SEE
18:34:51 <Asztal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack
18:35:04 <augur> ::is on that graph::
18:35:04 <ais523> well, this capital Α looks a lot more realistic
18:36:15 <tusho> heh, I want rnozilla.org
18:36:29 <ais523> does anyone have it yet?
18:36:52 <ais523> that's possibly trademark infringement, you have to be careful
18:36:52 <tusho> ais523: urgh they own it
18:36:57 <tusho> mr mozilla corporation
18:37:07 <tusho> what's wrong with saying R N Z I L L A?
18:37:23 <ais523> if it's similar-looking enough to a trademark, and you use it for similar things, it's an infrigement
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18:37:43 <tusho> ais523: trademark law is phunny
18:37:44 <ais523> likewise if it's similar-sounding
18:39:23 <tusho> ais523: whut is this: http://pt.wíkipedia.org/
18:39:24 <Asztal> I wonder if you can register domain names that are canonically equivalent to an existing domain name, but not the exact same sequence of bytes
18:39:30 <tusho> uncyclopedia clone?
18:45:11 <tusho> ais523: i have an evil perl idea
18:45:33 * ais523 wonders how evil it is and the chances that it's already been done
18:45:42 <tusho> ais523: it involves source filters
18:45:54 <ais523> well, several evil Perl things do
18:46:00 <ais523> ACME::Pythonic for instance
18:46:19 <tusho> ais523: it uses source filters to create a content management system
18:46:39 <tusho> ais523: #ircnomic-flood for an example
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18:49:25 <tusho> you know the worst thing? i'm actually considering making my site like that
18:49:40 <tusho> ais523: it'd be slightly less evil if you put it all after __END__
18:49:44 <ais523> that's much the same as using __END__
18:50:01 <tusho> ais523: come on, are you no golfer?
18:50:16 <tusho> ais523: can you even use DATA in an imported module anyway?
18:50:20 <ais523> hmm... but you need more extra code in the library if you do that
18:50:20 <tusho> it'd have to be like
18:50:27 <tusho> #!/usr/bin/env perl
18:50:31 <tusho> use ArticleThingy;
18:50:38 <tusho> print_it_out(DATA);
18:50:44 <tusho> which is FAR LESS EVIL
18:51:40 <ais523> of course, in #esoteric, that's a downside
18:51:49 <tusho> ais523: ok, but I wouldn't actually want to write my site like that
18:51:59 <tusho> my way saves 2 lines
18:52:08 <tusho> you just have to add two lines to the start of your doc, really
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18:53:32 <tusho> ais523: should I actually use my evil way to write my website
18:53:43 <ais523> which website, anyway?
18:53:52 <tusho> ais523: probably, yeah
18:54:03 <tusho> oh, and mine can even embed arbitary perl
18:54:09 <tusho> as Template Toolkit has a [% PERL %] block
18:54:23 <tusho> so you can do cgis with it and stuff
18:55:45 <ais523> what about messing with the headers?
18:55:52 <ais523> CGIs need to do that sometimes
18:57:28 <tusho> ais523: it would check if it's already sent I guess
18:57:38 <tusho> so that it only sends them if you didn't manually
18:57:55 <tusho> ais523: 'sub post_stuff($$$$$$$$$$$$$$)' -- wakaba source
18:57:57 <ais523> in PHP you need to write the <?php right at the start of the file to change the headers, because it sends them before you write any print characters
18:58:01 <tusho> bit too many arguments.
18:58:12 <ais523> so it gets screwed up by byte-order marks
18:58:14 <tusho> ais523: mine will buffer all output before sending it, though
18:58:19 <tusho> (you can tell php to do that too)
18:59:55 <tusho> ais523: the weird thing about perl is that evil hacks aren't 'non-best-practices'
19:00:04 <tusho> because the 'do what works and damn everyone else' attitude is encouraged
19:00:18 <tusho> because i'm so used to hearing "why do you want to do that?"
19:02:25 <tusho> ais523: well, I guess you like this because it means eso-std.org will be written
19:02:47 <ais523> well, it's appropriate for a website about esolangs
19:03:00 <ais523> less so for a website about, say, coding practices
19:03:02 <tusho> first, though, i'm going to write a storygen clone (to get my CGI.pm skillz) and some kind of command-line text adventure game in perl
19:03:07 <tusho> since I am le noob
19:03:32 <Slereah-> What, I go eating and you start to talk?
19:03:52 <ais523> hey, there was a conversation in here when I /got here/
19:03:54 <tusho> we hate you Slereah-
19:03:54 <ais523> that hardly ever happens
19:04:13 <ais523> tusho: speak for yourself
19:05:13 <tusho> quite often in fact
19:06:37 <ais523> hmm... newspaper appears to be a better surface to use as a mousemat than leather
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19:10:16 <tusho> ais523: perl is such a horrific lovely language.
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19:10:38 <ais523> it's true to what it was designed for
19:11:00 <tusho> ais523: i'm gonna complain to pavitra about his vote
19:11:03 <tusho> i.e. explain what abstain means
19:11:34 <Slereah-> Why is the first line I see "It's like anal sex"
19:11:47 <tusho> [[Pavitra: In perlnomic, 'abstain' means 'revise this proposal': not 'no real opinion, reduce quorum'. Your current draft proposal seems to imply you believe it is, or should be, the latter. If this is news to you, could you flip your vote to for? Thanks.]]
19:11:54 <ais523> laments comment appears to be completely out of contet
19:12:02 <tusho> i don't think there's any errors with that
19:12:09 <ais523> tusho: explain that's for PerlNomic proposals, it has the regular meaning in Agora-mirrored proposals
19:12:10 <tusho> ais523: it was re my perl remark
19:12:29 <tusho> [[(Oh, but Agoran proposals use it to mean 'reduce quorum'. This is confusing, go figure.)]]
19:12:31 <ais523> possibly point to the human_readable_rules too
19:14:06 <ais523> yep, I actually knew you'd commented before you did
19:14:25 <ais523> I have my RSS feed reader set up to alert me within a few minutes whenever anything happens on PerlNomic, and it got the timing just right
19:14:44 <ais523> s/before you did/before you told me/
19:15:00 <tusho> ais523: you are very sad
19:15:11 <ais523> not really, it was easy to set up
19:15:35 <tusho> ais523: what feed reader do you use?
19:15:51 <ais523> it was the only one on here
19:15:58 <ais523> and it seems to work fine
19:16:49 <tusho> Sheesh: Liferea won't notify me of updates.
19:16:52 <tusho> It doesnt' have an option for it
19:17:06 <tusho> Trying with "/usr/bin/lynx -source" to get
19:17:06 <tusho> ftp://ftp.perl.org/pub/CPAN/authors/id/P/PM/PMQS/CHECKSUMS
19:17:08 <ais523> [Error] Sheesh: No such nick/channel.
19:17:36 <ais523> Akregator sits in the notification area and shows a number when there are updates
19:18:07 <ais523> oh, and both Akregator and Konversation can be sucked into their notification area icon to unclutter the taskbar if needed
19:26:13 <tusho> ais523: #perl is utterly unhelpful.
19:26:24 <ais523> what did you try to ask them?
19:26:33 <tusho> ais523: why cpan is hanging:
19:26:33 <tusho> 'Trying with "/usr/bin/lynx -source" to get ftp://ftp.perl.org/pub/CPAN/authors/id/P/PM/PMQS/CHECKSUMS [And then, CPAN hangs]'
19:27:00 <ais523> it's not as if I ever use CPAN anyway
19:27:13 <tusho> ais523: everyone uses cpan.
19:27:14 <ais523> most of the more popular Perl models are in the Ubuntu repos so I get them that way
19:27:16 <tusho> you don't, but everyone does.
19:27:44 <ais523> $ apt-cache search perligata
19:27:44 <ais523> libromana-perligata-perl - perl module for writing in Latin
19:28:14 <tusho> ais523: does it have continuity?
19:28:25 <ais523> what do you mean by continuity here?
19:29:08 <ais523> an apt-cache search on the word "continuity" only turns up Seamonkey, which uses that word incidentally in its description
19:29:18 <tusho> ais523: it's a perl module.
19:29:25 <ais523> no, it doesn't have it
19:29:29 * ais523 does apt-cache search the
19:29:35 <ais523> and gets a massive list back
19:31:18 <ais523> "<perlbot> Don't parse html with regular expressions!" yes, although I occasionally parse XML with regular expressions when it's in a known format and I only want to grab a bit of the data
19:31:42 <tusho> ais523: haha, are you in #perl now
19:31:48 <ais523> otherwise, I use JSON, JavaScript has a built in JSON parser and it's the lang I normally use
19:31:54 <ais523> tusho: I'm just lurking
19:31:55 <tusho> # Error: Can't locate Coro/Event.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/ehird/.cpan/build/Continuity-0.993/blib/lib /home/ehird/.cpan/build/Continuity-0.993/blib/arch /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.8 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.8 /usr/share/perl/5.8 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at /home/ehird/.cpan/build/Continuity-0.993/blib/lib/Continuity.pm line 201.
19:31:59 <tusho> fdfdfdfdfsdfsdfsdgffdgsfgsdfgfsdgsf
19:32:03 <tusho> I INSTALLED CORO::EVENT
19:32:11 <ais523> for things that tend to receive the sort of object that's normally written in HTML, that is
19:33:04 <tusho> ais523: JSON is le cool.
19:33:29 <ais523> XML is a markup language, whereas JSON is a serialisation language
19:33:37 <ais523> but people tend to use XML where JSON would be appropriate
19:33:56 <ais523> is there a JSON version of XSLT, I wonder?
19:33:56 <tusho> JSON isn't revolutionary though.
19:34:01 <tusho> It's pretty damn uncontroversial.
19:34:08 <tusho> ais523: uhh, yeah. They call them 'programming languages'
19:34:30 <ais523> no, I mean in particular
19:34:33 <ais523> rather than in general
19:34:53 <ais523> like some version of XSLT that can read JSON rather than XML
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19:38:05 <tusho> WOO CONTINUITY INSTALLS
19:39:00 <Slereah-> What's a good Scheme tutorial?
19:42:20 <Slereah-> "SYNDICAT INDEPENDANT DES COMMISSAIRES DE POLICE"?
19:42:22 <tusho> it's heavy on the theory.
19:42:35 <tusho> also, if you read your SICP today, you are an EXPERT PROGRAMMER
19:42:39 <Slereah-> "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
19:42:41 <tusho> Slereah-: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
19:42:48 <lament> Slereah-: you have to read SICP anyway
19:42:52 <tusho> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html oh lawd is 'dat sum full text?
19:42:59 <lament> it's not about scheme, it's about life, the universe and everything
19:43:10 <lament> but you learn scheme as a side effect
19:43:39 <Slereah-> With the arabic dude and the fat French revolutionary woman.
19:43:44 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:45:26 <Slereah-> "This book is dedicated, in respect and admiration, to the spirit that lives in the computer."
19:45:42 <Slereah-> I hope I don't have a ghost in my computer.
19:46:36 <Slereah-> Is it... actually about Scheme?
19:46:44 <Slereah-> I fail to see the word in the index.
19:48:07 <tusho> Slereah-: All the code is in scheme.
19:48:12 <tusho> Read it from the beginning.
19:48:37 <ais523> Technical Information (for support personnel)
19:48:37 <ais523> * Go to Microsoft Product Support Services and perform a title search for the words HTTP and 404.
19:48:45 <ais523> from a Microsoft 404 page
19:49:04 <ais523> I expected some actual technical information in the technical information section...
19:49:05 <tusho> Slereah-: Besides, GJS, one of the writers, invented scheme.
19:49:13 <tusho> Along with Guy Steele
19:49:34 <tusho> The other ones are not that godly, they're merely complete gurus of scheme. :P
19:49:43 <tusho> Slereah-: Yes, and he now works at sun/.
19:49:49 <tusho> Doing java shit, of all things.
19:49:51 <tusho> He helped make java.
19:50:25 * Slereah- imagines Steel Guy, working on the sun
19:50:47 <Slereah-> Probably punching nuns and orphans.
19:51:38 -!- Slereah- has changed nick to Slereah.
19:54:31 <tusho> ais523: eso-std.org's pastebin will be AMAZINGLY AWESOME.
19:55:07 <ais523> hmm... I may have to write an INTERCAL syntax highlighter for it
19:55:15 <ais523> although you could just use the Emacs mode, it gets things mostly right
19:55:33 <Slereah> I lost all hope of ever seeing it!
19:55:49 <ais523> hey, the C-INTERCAL development sources are stored there at the moment
19:56:07 <ais523> so you can check out an unreleased under-development version if you like
19:56:18 <ais523> which is quite a way ahead of the previous release by now
20:00:03 <Slereah> "Computational processes are abstract beings that inhabit computers."
20:00:13 <Slereah> Reading this, I imagine a lot of ghosts in the computer
20:00:26 <Slereah> Is Steel Guy fighting those evil goblins?
20:01:20 <tusho> ais523: how do I pass a variable reference to a sub and use it in perl again?
20:01:43 <ais523> there are two ways, I'll tell you the way that doesn't involve prototypes as it's clearer
20:01:56 <ais523> you call the sub as subname(\$var)
20:02:05 <Slereah> "In effect, we conjure the spirits of the computer with our spells."
20:02:13 <ais523> when inside the sub, you assign that reference to a variable using my $reftovar = shift;
20:02:15 <Slereah> This isn't a book about life, the universe and the rest.
20:02:20 <ais523> and use the variable as $$reftovar
20:02:25 <tusho> Slereah: shut up and read.
20:02:29 <Slereah> It's the rulebook of Scheme or something
20:02:51 <tusho> Methinks that constantly being cynical for the sake of it while reading SICP will not help you learn schem,e
20:03:04 <Slereah> Yes, but it helps me to lulz
20:03:23 <tusho> Slereah: I assume you are trying to learn Scheme instead of 'lulz'.
20:03:28 <tusho> If that is the case, I'd change your strategy.
20:03:34 <Slereah> "A computational process is indeed much like a sorcerer's idea of a spirit."
20:03:51 <Slereah> He hangs on hard to his metaphore.
20:05:04 <tusho> Slereah: Look, it's the metaphor that SICP is based around.
20:05:11 <tusho> Take it seriously even if it has more than a trace of whimsy.
20:05:38 <Slereah> So... what's Scheme in the metaphore?
20:06:14 <Slereah> "They are carefully composed from symbolic expressions in arcane and esoteric programming languages"
20:06:31 <ais523> that's a different meaning of 'esoteric', right?
20:06:47 <Slereah> But it still made me laugh.
20:07:00 <tusho> Slereah: Can you just read instead of asking us?
20:07:43 <ais523> well, it's lead to an interesting conversation, well, argument
20:09:34 <tusho> ais523: Hm. How can I does keyword args in perl?
20:09:39 <tusho> Does %_ work or must I manually convert it?
20:10:16 <ais523> well, if the args are given as (name1 => arg1, name2 => arg2) and so on
20:10:21 <ais523> and you know you're getting keyword args
20:10:28 <ais523> then you can do my %_ = @_
20:10:39 <tusho> my ($q, $title, %_) = @_;
20:11:01 <tusho> I'll call it %actions I guess
20:11:03 <ais523> if you call it as ($q, $title, name1 => arg1, name2 => arg2)
20:11:22 <ais523> => is really a fancy-looking comma, but it also causes barewords before it to be interpreted as strings
20:11:26 <ais523> which looks slightly nicer
20:11:50 <ais523> oh, BTW, KDE fixed Bug 163168 already
20:11:58 <ais523> that was fast, I only reported it yesterday
20:13:42 <ais523> not allowing queries to channels
20:13:48 <ais523> which doesn't make sense
20:14:08 <tusho> for my $action (keys %actions) {
20:14:11 <tusho> is there something fishy with that?
20:14:11 <ais523> what I did turned out to be a convoluted way to write /query #esoteric
20:14:13 <tusho> it's parsing oddly
20:14:31 <ais523> try dumping %actions to see if it's what you expect it to be
20:14:38 <tusho> ais523: no, it's a parse error.
20:14:50 <ais523> what's the error message?
20:14:52 <tusho> %q{...} isn't a string?
20:14:56 <tusho> syntax error at hello.pl line 32, near "%q{"
20:15:12 <ais523> what's immediately before that?
20:15:23 <tusho> $q->print(%q{<input type="submit" name="do" value="$action">});
20:15:41 <tusho> It's a quoted string thing
20:16:09 <tusho> ais523: is there a q that does interpolation?>
20:16:31 <ais523> also known as " but sometimes, like here, you don't want to use that
20:16:59 <ais523> of the quoting characters, ' defaults to q, " defaults to qq, ` defaults to qx, / defaults to m
20:17:33 <tusho> ais523: hmph, I can't use %actions
20:17:51 <ais523> for my $action (sort keys %actions) {
20:18:00 <tusho> ais523: I need it sorted in call order.
20:18:04 <tusho> So: Manual processing, here I come.
20:18:12 <ais523> oh, yes, hashes are unordered
20:18:22 <ais523> what if someone does the same action twice?
20:18:29 <tusho> ais523: you don't.
20:18:41 <tusho> ais523: hm, how do I get index & value in a loop over an array?
20:18:44 <tusho> I'll just check for oddity.
20:18:51 <tusho> er, evenity because of 0-indexing
20:19:32 <ais523> well, it's possible to do things like while(@_) {my $index = shift; my $value = shift;}
20:19:46 <ais523> remove elements from the array one at a time
20:26:47 <Slereah> "A small bug in a computer-aided design program, for example, can lead to the catastrophic collapse of an airplane or a dam or the self-destruction of an industrial robot."
20:29:02 <Slereah> Is there really need for a context?
20:29:12 <tusho> ihope: Slereah is reading SICP and failing to learn scheme because he's busy making fun of it
20:29:50 <Slereah> Well, it's not my fault that it's so funny!
20:30:07 <tusho> only 'cause you're making fun of it.
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20:31:36 <Slereah> You can't put robots in a book not about robots without making it funny!
20:33:00 <augur> where is my oklopol?! :(
20:33:51 <tusho> augur: Gay sexing, presumably.
20:33:58 <tusho> It's all he ever does.
20:34:01 <augur> i want his gaysexing :(
20:36:17 <tusho> HanDongSeong: welcome to #esoteric
20:36:28 <tusho> were you expecting perhaps non-gay-sex-related discussions?
20:36:29 <ais523> this channel ought not to be like that
20:36:45 <tusho> ais523: aww, but it's fun
20:36:49 <ais523> it would be nice if we could, for once, actually discuss esolangs
20:36:50 <Slereah> It should have more robot discussions.
20:37:00 <tusho> HanDongSeong: I was responding to '...'
20:37:12 <tusho> we just also discuss gay sex, and sometimes the blend of the two
20:37:13 <ais523> tusho: you should have said "You must be new here"
20:37:20 <tusho> ais523: that's longer
20:37:36 <ais523> yes, but it has the right meaning
20:37:43 <ais523> getting the right meaning is pretty important in programming
20:38:16 <tusho> ais523: i'll ambiguate up your syntax parser
20:38:19 <tusho> if you know what I mean.
20:38:32 <augur> ais doesnt realize we're actually discussiong the ButtSex esolang
20:38:33 <ais523> I don't know what you mean
20:38:52 <HanDongSeong> last time when i was here i couldn't sense a shade of gay stuff
20:39:02 <ais523> it's become a new meme
20:39:07 <ais523> and not a particularly interesting one
20:39:14 <tusho> ais523: it's not a meme
20:39:19 <tusho> it's just what oklopol and bsmntbombdood did in their spare time
20:39:31 <HanDongSeong> well, about a year ago some people actually discussed about the sex ratio of this channel
20:39:33 <augur> your name is HanDongSeong and you couldn't send the gayness?
20:40:00 <ais523> as far as I could tell the channel was almost but not quite 100% male back then
20:40:05 <augur> do you know what a DONG is?
20:40:10 <tusho> ais523: still is, almost
20:40:14 <tusho> a few females in here
20:40:24 <augur> there are GIRLS who do esolangs? what nonsense is this
20:40:27 <tusho> Fun note: when I was processing the logs for ROBOT9000 lament said something along the lines of that it would be nice if we discussed esolangs at one point instead of manga and our lack of social lives
20:40:40 <tusho> so I wouldn't say much as changed, if you replace manga and the lack of our social lives with gay sex
20:40:44 <ais523> did you actually put a robot9000 version in here?
20:40:50 <tusho> ais523: nope, it segfaulted
20:40:58 <ihope> I guess it's possible that lament's female.
20:41:11 <ais523> you should be capable of patching around a segfault
20:41:14 <augur> lament isnt female, he's just a closet homo.
20:41:25 <ihope> And we all know GregorR is.
20:41:34 <tusho> lament's name is nikita.
20:41:55 <ihope> I name kar8nga next.
20:41:57 <GregorR> ihope: How dare you suggest that, to prove that I'm not I shall rape you into submission!!!
20:42:03 <augur> not that im making fun of your name
20:42:29 <HanDongSeong> maybe i should just use my traditional nickname...
20:42:29 <tusho> GregorR: can I have some of that?
20:42:32 -!- HanDongSeong has changed nick to uvanta.
20:42:47 * tusho watches as ais523 leaves in a huff again
20:42:57 -!- ais523 has left (?).
20:43:42 <tusho> I wonder what the new c-intercal release is like.
20:44:47 <augur> its like an indian guy named sukdeep
20:45:20 <Slereah> Or a chinese guy named Wang ZeDong.
20:46:31 <uvanta> Actually there's a common surname Seok (sounds like Suck) here in Korea, and one of them named himself Richard for international use, made a name card saying "Dick Seok" ...
20:47:23 <tusho> ceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee intercal
20:47:53 <augur> uvanta: either he's a genius or he's an idiot
20:48:06 <uvanta> it's just an accident, i think
20:48:28 <tusho> I hear C-INTERCAL supports gay sex now.
20:48:42 <uvanta> how should he know what Dick really means
20:49:02 <tusho> C-INTERCAL's gay sex extension is very stable.
20:49:21 <uvanta> it's not in any of Korean school curriculum
20:49:49 <uvanta> maybe he should have ask some native English speaker but
20:50:54 <augur> always get your foreign name vetted first
20:52:17 <uvanta> augur: can you recommend me a decent male English name?
20:52:29 <tusho> uvanta: niffiducker
20:52:44 <augur> whats your korean name again?
20:52:48 <augur> not your family name your personal name
20:53:05 <uvanta> DongSeong is my first name
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20:54:33 <augur> it sounds close to dong would in english
20:54:45 <augur> alternatively, daniel is a nice name
20:55:24 <augur> thats your name. daniel han.
20:55:26 <uvanta> it's nice but i can name three of my friends who named themselves Daniel in English...
20:55:47 <tusho> Johnathan-Schmidtzenheimer
20:56:11 <tusho> augur: John is lame. Johnathan-Schmidtzenheimer 4eva!
20:56:25 <augur> nickname for guys named John is Jack
20:57:43 <uvanta> well, in fact i don't want to name myself after someone in Bible
20:58:14 <augur> john is #20 in the us in 2006
20:58:30 <uvanta> augur: there were three professors with the name John in my last semester
20:59:17 <augur> seong -> sean/shawn?
20:59:28 <uvanta> that's my best friend's name
21:00:07 <uvanta> and all the people around me
21:00:24 <augur> http://www.babynamewizard.com/voyager#prefix=&ms=true&sw=m&exact=false
21:00:29 <augur> pick one and be done with it. :P
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21:05:52 <tusho> Haskell B. Curry Lisp
21:06:37 <Asztal> I knew of a dog named Haskell
21:06:59 <Slereah> The black guy in Cube 0 is named Haskell, IIRC
21:09:11 -!- ihope has joined.
21:19:58 <lament> tusho: are you stalking me?
21:25:26 <lament> you're not very good at it.
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21:56:34 <augur> haskell is an esolang.
21:57:05 <augur> ITS A FUCKING ESOLANG
21:57:13 <augur> it has the most convoluted type system in the universe
21:57:20 <tusho> the type system is trivial
21:57:59 <augur> haskell functions are all embedded lambdas
21:58:03 <olsner> haskell's type system isn't even TC without evil extensions
21:58:36 <augur> i rather love haskell tho.
21:58:42 <augur> for all its insanity
21:59:10 <Slereah> Haskell has too much monads for me.
21:59:13 <uvanta> augur: what about Clean then
21:59:29 <augur> have you decide on a name, uvanta?
22:00:14 <uvanta> Clean uses something called uniqueness type instead of monad
22:00:20 <uvanta> it is purely functional, too
22:00:42 <uvanta> it recorded faster performance than haskell in some benchmarks
22:00:43 <lament> HASKELL IS FOR FAGGOTS
22:00:57 <lament> uvanta: clean suffers from being completely obscure
22:01:09 <lament> its creators seem bent on keeping it unknown
22:01:29 <augur> http://www.phoodie.info/2008/05/30/food-blob-drink-up/
22:01:37 <lament> well, at least they GPLed it
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22:05:56 <olsner> mcdonalds does not have a reputation for any kind of quality in sweden, so I'm not surprised they have to work hard to make an impression
22:06:42 <Slereah> Does it have a reputation for quality anywhere?
22:07:25 <lament> women have a reputation for quality in sweden
22:07:25 <olsner> I'd expect coffee at mcdonalds to taste like something half-way between piss and burnt bacon
22:07:48 <lament> it's more like three-quarters bacon, although that's probably regional
22:09:08 <tusho> chocolate bacon coffee.
22:10:04 <tusho> Slereah: bacon salt is
22:23:27 <ihope> Bacon salt? Is that any different from ordinary salt?
22:23:45 <lament> it's salt that's made out of bacon
22:23:56 <tusho> it's salt that makes things taste like bacon
22:24:03 <tusho> http://www.baconsalt.com/
22:24:19 <lament> is there a salt that makes things taste like ass?
22:24:28 <tusho> lament: mcdonald's joke
22:30:50 <Slereah> (It's a butt-tasting butter)
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23:25:47 <Slereah-> Does the cond of Scheme works like the one of Lisp?
23:26:05 <ihope> I would imagine so.
23:26:11 <Slereah-> That is, every predicate is evaluated one after the other, so it doesn't matter if two are true at the same time
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00:23:58 <Slereah> Can a function name in Scheme be anything?
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00:41:37 <Slereah> So, can you name Scheme functions to anything?
00:42:16 <tusho> you can name them valid symbol names
00:42:18 <tusho> which are .. pretty lenient
00:42:29 <tusho> +--++++++*%%3434 is a valid symbol, for instance
00:42:36 <Slereah> Even with already defined functions?
00:42:47 <tusho> Slereah: 34 is not a valid symbol, no.
00:42:55 <tusho> And yes, already defined functions, it just overrides them.
00:43:06 <tusho> 34a is not a valid symbol either (starts with a number) but a lot of implementations accept it
00:43:20 <Slereah> I was hoping of doing a small library of numbers for conveniance purpose.
00:43:42 <tusho> Slereah: Well ... You could use '4'
00:43:54 <tusho> but I assume SICP is maeking you do the church?
00:44:07 <tusho> (N 4) -> (S (S (S (S N0))))
00:44:20 <tusho> Slereah: how about:
00:44:38 <Slereah> I was hoping of doing a pretty much straightforward translation for the function definition part
00:44:44 <tusho> (define (N n) (if (zero? n) N0 (S (N (- 1 n)))))
00:44:53 <tusho> Slereah: with S=succ and N0=duh
00:45:07 <Slereah> I guess i could just check if something starts with a number and add some symbol to make it acceptable.
00:45:25 <tusho> I dunno what you're doing but it sounds bad
00:45:41 <tusho> Have you read SICP, Slereah?
00:45:48 <tusho> I suggest reading it all the way through. It has tons of interpreters and compilers.
00:45:54 <tusho> They will help you a lot.
00:46:05 <Slereah> Well, problem is, it dwells a lot on stuff i already know.
00:46:18 <tusho> Slereah: Well, fine. But it pays to read through.
00:46:21 <tusho> It has lots of helpful scheme things
00:46:32 <Slereah> Well, I don't need that much scheme.
00:46:39 <Slereah> Just enough for mah esolang.
00:46:52 <Slereah> Although I'm not sure how much the pi part would require.
00:47:02 <Slereah> I still have no idea how to exactly implement it
00:47:11 <tusho> Slereah: Read through SICP. Srsly.
00:47:45 <Slereah> I dunno. I usually prefer to poke around a language and read up when something doesn't feel right.
00:49:14 <Slereah> Fuck is my internet shitty nowadays.
00:50:54 <tusho> Slereah: yah, well, that's exactly what'll get you writing shitty scheme
00:51:58 <Slereah> Would I really need that much for an esolang?
00:52:21 <Slereah> I mean, the Lazy K interpreter is less than ten lines long.
00:53:14 -!- uvanta has quit ("P").
00:53:56 <tusho> Slereah: Maybe not but you'll be much happier if you write nicer code.
00:54:02 <tusho> Scheme is quite a paradigm shift.
00:54:08 <tusho> Slereah: What scheme are you using?
00:54:14 <tusho> I suggest PLT Scheme most heartily.
00:54:18 <tusho> And the DrScheme editor it comes with.
00:54:24 <tusho> It does all that naffy indentation for you.
00:54:45 <Slereah> I don't use any scheme right now.
00:55:34 <Slereah> Mostly conceptualizing something on Python to compile it to Scheme
00:55:47 <tusho> Scheme is a functional language (mostly) unlike Python
00:55:56 <tusho> translating python->scheme is pointless, and you might as well not use scheme
00:56:01 <tusho> It's a totally different paradigm
00:56:09 <Slereah> i'm translating Limp to Scheme
00:56:17 <tusho> Slereah: that's a bit silly
00:56:21 <tusho> why not limp->scheme using scheme?
00:56:26 <tusho> sicp contains compilers in scheme
00:56:26 <Slereah> Python is the only language I sort of know how to parse with
00:56:36 <tusho> Slereah: Sick pee! Sick pee! Sick pee!
00:57:14 <Slereah> Can you feed a function as an argument, outside of lambdas?
00:57:23 <tusho> Slereah: of course
00:57:27 <tusho> Code is data. Data is code.
00:57:33 <tusho> Slereah: Want a sekrit?
00:57:38 <tusho> (define (foo bar baz) quux)
00:57:43 <tusho> (define foo (lambda (bar baz) quux))
00:57:58 <tusho> Slereah: no, it's ^^that^^
00:58:30 <Slereah> ('cause I'm trying to write in the function)
00:58:43 <Slereah> Though I'm not too sure how to do the y thing though.
00:58:59 <Slereah> How do I... exctract the arguments of a function?
01:00:18 <Slereah> y ( f (x, y, z, ...)) gives you back the least value of y such that f = 0
01:00:43 <tusho> Slereah: Oh. Wait, is the 'y' in the function's arglist the 'y' in the u thing?
01:01:07 <Slereah> has two arguments : the function, and one of its argument
01:01:23 <tusho> mu_y(f(x,y,z,...))
01:01:27 <tusho> it extracts the arglists y?
01:02:06 <Slereah> It will use the function f over all values of y.
01:02:34 <tusho> until f(THING) = 0
01:02:35 <tusho> and it returns THING?
01:02:49 <Slereah> Technically, I think that most of the time, there will only be one argument for it to be valid.
01:03:00 <Slereah> But I can see scenarios where more than one would happen.
01:03:14 <tusho> Slereah: Well, first, how are you going to generate ANYTHING?
01:03:17 <tusho> Do you want every integer?
01:03:22 <tusho> You can't just scheme to give you 'something'.
01:03:27 <tusho> That would be pretty vague
01:03:36 <tusho> <tusho> -> f(ANYTHING)
01:03:40 <tusho> you can't pluck ANYTHING out of thing air
01:03:45 <tusho> you can feed it f(0),f(1) etc
01:03:49 <tusho> or f(a),f(ab),f(abc)
01:03:55 <tusho> but you can't just generate stuff the function wants
01:04:10 <Slereah> I'm not sure I follow your example.
01:04:44 <tusho> Slereah: What does mu(f) do.
01:04:56 <Slereah> It would work like this : (y f) would feed 0 as y to f.
01:05:06 <Slereah> If f(0) = 0, it returns 0.
01:05:46 <tusho> Slereah: OK. So integers.
01:05:59 <tusho> Slereah: What is 'y' in that case
01:06:02 <Slereah> Since it's recursive, there's only integers.
01:06:10 <Slereah> Well, f is a function of n variables
01:06:43 <tusho> u(f) = if f(0) = 0, 0
01:06:57 <Slereah> Well, it could have more than one argument.
01:07:16 <tusho> Slereah: How about ignoring the more-than-one argument aspect for now?
01:07:17 <Slereah> I don't see that happening often, but there's easy scenarios for it.
01:07:54 <tusho> (define (mu' f n) (if (zero? (f n)) 0 (+ 1 (mu f (+ n 1)))))
01:07:58 <tusho> (define (mu f) (mu' f 0))
01:08:03 <tusho> Slereah: Pretty trivial to understand, right?
01:08:04 <Slereah> For instance, y (p(1,2)(y,z))
01:08:13 <Slereah> Well, the function itself isn't the hard part
01:08:29 <Slereah> It's how to implement the multiple argument par
01:09:26 <tusho> (define (f . args) args is a list of my argumenst!! omg!!)
01:09:34 <tusho> (define (f a . args) args is a list of my argumenst, less the first one!! omg!!)
01:09:41 <tusho> Slereah: Protip 2.
01:09:46 <tusho> (apply f '(1 2 3)) => (f 1 2 3)
01:10:03 <tusho> Slereah: I believe you can do what you want with my mu and that.
01:10:51 <Slereah> I am not too sure about this.
01:11:13 <Slereah> Since the defition of doesn't contain the definition of f.
01:11:24 <tusho> Slereah: Shall I show you it?
01:11:27 <tusho> Slereah: Wait, so:
01:12:38 <Slereah> And that third variable over integers.
01:13:18 <tusho> Slereah: a and b are anything
01:13:49 <Slereah> But... mu f returns an integer, not a function
01:14:04 <tusho> Slereah: Scheme is not curries
01:14:24 <Slereah> Oh yes, multiple variables
01:15:19 <tusho> Slereah: I'm going now, have fun
01:15:21 <tusho> read my above stuff
01:15:24 <tusho> it tells you all you need
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01:53:46 <ihope> Porque ya se había hecho tan rico.
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01:57:49 <augur> spanish is an esolang :(
01:58:51 <ihope> You mean it's difficult, or you just don't know it?
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02:12:32 <augur> i mean its ugly and horrible and evil ;)
02:13:39 <augur> pero entiende un poco porque trabajo a el apple store en miami y tengo muchos colombian customers
02:16:34 <augur> well, worked, not work, but i dont know spanish well enough to be able to conjugate :D
02:16:42 <augur> its just an ugly language i thing.
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05:55:55 <lament> augur: you're in miami and you haven't learned spanish yet?
05:55:58 <sekhmet> There was some guy on openbsd-misc who was asking about mp3 concatenation programs because he liked to run a cronjob to change IPs every single minute, yet he wanted to listen to web radio
05:56:10 <augur> i live in fort lauderdale
05:56:12 <sekhmet> So that THEY couldn't track him
05:56:15 <augur> i worked in Aventura
05:56:21 <augur> which is in north miami-dade county
05:56:24 <sekhmet> Sec, I'll try to dig up the link
05:57:47 <sekhmet> http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=115298981814514&w=2
05:57:52 <sekhmet> I recommend the whole thread
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06:01:13 <lament> i actually have no idea whom to ask when cmeme misbehaves
06:01:19 <lament> i don't know if nef is still in charge
06:02:41 <lament> once again i ask if there's any objection to having the irseek bot log this place too
06:03:00 <lament> i'll ban whoever objects :P
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06:57:46 <lament> now the question is, how do we get it back
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13:04:58 * Slereah3 buys "Communicating and Mobile Systems: the Pi-Calculus"
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15:10:31 * pikhq waves at everyone. . . But this time from Boston, rather than from Colorado Springs.
15:15:49 <oklopol> Slereah4: that's also on my list of books to buy
15:17:20 <Slereah4> It will arrive here in a week or so.
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15:34:26 <Slereah4> "He emphasizes that interactive behavior is best represented by a non-deterministic automaton which cannot be equated (behaviourally) with a deterministic automaton."
15:36:05 <pikhq> Is that *supposed* to be meaningful?
15:36:42 <Slereah4> I'll have to wait for the book to find out!
15:36:55 <Slereah4> Fuck, the science forum of Amazon is lame
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15:55:43 <Slereah4> I ordered it from some store named "Quartermelon".
16:01:01 <Slereah4> It seems that all reviews think that this book is awesome
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16:08:25 <tusho> I am trying the console first. :P
16:11:22 <tusho> cmeme is a logbot.
16:11:24 <tusho> the ircbrowse.com one
16:12:34 <tusho> lament: OBJECT to irseek
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16:29:05 <tusho> ~xXx luv tushykins xXx~
16:29:25 <tusho> hmm, that is one downside to this nick Slereah4
16:29:46 <Slereah4> Well, the previous Slereah are still on this server.
16:29:57 <Slereah4> Why doesn't this server have ghost-handling?
16:30:03 <tusho> Slereah4: It does.
16:30:08 <tusho> /ns ghost FOO password
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16:46:12 <Slereah> After the one hour of back story in the first movie, I hope the new Batman will be two hours of pure Batman.
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17:06:50 <Slereah> The first part of Batman Begin is so full of leather noise.
17:06:57 <Slereah> It sounds like a BDSM porno.
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18:15:23 <augur> oklopol, wanna help design the language? :B
18:15:50 <oklopol> i want to design everything.
18:16:22 <augur> the language im hypothesizing in proglangdesign which rhamphoryncus completely misses the point of
18:16:44 <Slereah> What would that language be?
18:17:06 <augur> well its nothing amazing right now just a few ideas that i'd like to toy with
18:17:20 <oklopol> (which x) had a nice declarative feel to it
18:17:25 <augur> namely quantification, maybe wh-phrase things, and such
18:17:27 <oklopol> i have a similar construct in muture
18:17:42 <augur> really? i figured (which x) was rather functional
18:17:47 <oklopol> "the element of x that fits here"
18:18:17 <augur> (which x is y) is practically (filter fn xs)
18:18:19 <oklopol> well it's not really functional iiuc
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18:19:05 <oklopol> where cond can be anything
18:19:33 <oklopol> shouldn't this return true if for some element in x (cond lement)?
18:19:48 <oklopol> or was that just a syntactic thing?
18:20:18 <augur> you're right, that's a better example
18:20:20 <oklopol> this kind of semantics for where isn't really functional, because it isn't "context-sensitive"... semantically
18:20:36 <oklopol> tusho: muture is one of my declarative langs
18:20:57 <tusho> oklopol: how many langs do you have again
18:21:11 <oklopol> well 5 in active processing
18:21:11 <augur> even? (which Integers) => [...,-4,-2,0,2,4,...]
18:21:21 <augur> but i suppose thats just the same as (even Integers)
18:21:27 <oklopol> but as i rarely finish my languages, i have lots.
18:21:39 <oklopol> for instance cise was never finished
18:21:51 <oklopol> but will prolly continue once i get my codes from my old machine
18:21:52 <augur> the idea of which i guess was more to allow it to stand in for a single item in non-predicative places
18:22:21 <oklopol> yes, but it's clearly of declarative nature
18:22:30 <oklopol> because you cannot evaluate it without knowing where it is
18:22:53 <augur> its not declarative at all.
18:22:56 <oklopol> (which List) doesn't yield a result as such
18:23:07 <augur> (which foo).bar == 0
18:23:28 <augur> first foo (\x -> x.bar == 0)
18:23:54 <augur> thats another notation i've been considering
18:24:10 <augur> foo[i] | foo[i].bar == 0
18:24:26 <oklopol> (which (range 0 1000)) * (which (range 0 1000)) == 90
18:24:42 <augur> yeah that could be declarative.
18:24:56 <augur> a lot of this stuff is vaguely constraint-like
18:25:02 <augur> like list comprehensions
18:25:14 <oklopol> it's a declarative construct. you can limit it to cases where you can optimize it to direct functional stuff, though, which you did earlier.
18:25:28 <oklopol> but the construct itself is inherently declarative
18:25:41 <augur> [(x,y) | x <- [0...1000], y <- [0...1000], x*y == 90]
18:26:24 <augur> yeah i guess it is declarative, ok.
18:27:51 <augur> the idea is more that the (which ...) constructor would be interpreted as a search on the argument
18:28:15 <augur> (which foo).bar == 1
18:28:18 <augur> would be equivalent to
18:28:46 <augur> if( foo[0].bar == 1 ){ foo[0].bar; } else if( foo[1].bar == 1 ){ foo[1].bar' } ...
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18:31:02 <augur> tho i think i'd expand it to include more than one container
18:31:13 <augur> which foo, bar, baz: ...
18:31:37 <augur> which would be akin to list comprehensions i guess.
18:31:41 <tusho> oklopol: we should collaborate on a language
18:31:42 <tusho> the world would explode
18:31:51 <augur> i would love to see the result :)
18:32:02 <augur> it better be interesting, not another boring clone of existing languages
18:32:18 <tusho> I think of impossible things
18:33:17 <tusho> and oklopol thinks of impossible things that turn out to be possibe
18:33:19 <tusho> oklopol: idea - how about every expression returns infinite results
18:33:47 <oklopol> might be interesting to make a language where all computation is directed towards checking whether the program will halt
18:34:11 <tusho> and that the actual halting function, since its a tc language, returns infinite {T,F,T,F,T,...}
18:37:33 <tusho> oklopol: i think we're onto something
18:37:36 <tusho> every expression is a filter over the set of everything
18:38:12 <oklopol> not what's the language where you loop by quinin?
18:41:32 <tusho> oklopol: not sure what it's called
18:41:41 <tusho> however... our ideas combined ... are PAPTAIN CLAMET
18:43:26 <pikhq> I officially hate IRAF.
18:45:27 <tusho> pikhq: I hate iraq too! Dems enemies of our FREEDOM!
18:45:59 <pikhq> tusho: IRAF is a scientific program with a painful, *painful* install process.
18:46:09 <pikhq> It's *installation manual* has 18 pages.
18:46:20 <tusho> pikhq: Yeah, installing our troops was painful. But it was for FREEDOM!
18:46:30 <pikhq> And, no, they don't use autotools.
18:46:45 <tusho> Autotools? Is that some terrorist weppon?
18:46:55 <pikhq> No, it's a hippy thing.
18:47:13 <tusho> Why can't we just nuke those darn hippie commies?
18:47:41 <pikhq> You know, "Hey, man! Could you run 'cd weed&&./configure&&make&&make install'? I need some, man..."
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18:49:19 <tusho> Slereah: And, well, anything that isn't #f is true.
18:49:21 <tusho> And #f is not '().
18:49:25 <tusho> And 'NIL is not '() or #f.
18:49:32 <tusho> Lisp unifies those, for some reason
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18:52:49 <Slereah> [19:51:17] <Slereah> Would with one variable be (define ( f y) (cond ((= (f y) 0) y) ( #t ( f (+ y 1))))) ?
18:53:30 <Slereah> Used in the context of ( f 0).
18:54:18 <tusho> Slereah: Fyi, you could just use (if cond then else).
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19:06:22 <Slereah> Thinking about it, there's actually very simple scenarios for the on many variables
19:07:40 <tusho> <tusho> Slereah: Fyi, you could just use (if cond then else).
19:07:41 <tusho> <tusho> Slereah: but ys
19:07:49 <tusho> Slereah: get this right first
19:07:55 <tusho> Show me an if-using version.
19:07:55 <Slereah> [19:54:35] <Slereah> That's so not cool.
19:08:11 <tusho> Um, using a two-clause-with-one=#f-cond is incredibly bad style.
19:08:36 <Slereah> Isn't "if then" just a shortcut for the actual cond behind?
19:08:46 <tusho> Slereah: Why does this bother you?
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19:08:52 <tusho> You're meant to think in as high-level terms as possible.
19:08:59 <tusho> If you don't want to, then you don't understand Scheme.
19:09:03 <tusho> Or at least you are willingly ignoring it.
19:10:07 <tusho> Slereah: So what does your mu look like with if? :P
19:10:22 <tusho> (Also, I'd rename it 'mu'. 'µ' is not a valid symbol, even if your implementation accepts it.)
19:10:34 <Slereah> (define ( f y) (if (= (f y) 0) y ( f (+ y 1)))
19:10:53 <tusho> Slereah: Yes, but what's with the paren before µ?
19:11:12 <Slereah> Are the whitespace significant?
19:11:26 <tusho> Slereah: No but it looks ugly.
19:11:39 <Slereah> (define (mu f y) (if (= (f y) 0) y (mu f (+ y 1))))
19:12:00 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving.").
19:12:23 <tusho> Slereah: OK, am I right in that the 'y' can be in any hole?
19:12:34 <tusho> the 'y' is the mu-fed one
19:12:41 <Slereah> Well, it's a version for only one variable.
19:13:14 <tusho> Slereah: I mean, in the real mu
19:13:35 <Slereah> The real mu can be applied to any variable, yeah.
19:13:52 <tusho> Slereah: Remember my trick about apply?
19:13:59 <tusho> (apply func '(1 2 3)) -> (func 1 2 3)
19:15:00 -!- cherez has joined.
19:15:58 <tusho> Does mu allow this:
19:16:06 <tusho> Slereah: Heyyy, wait.
19:16:09 <tusho> Your current mu is fine!
19:16:15 <tusho> (mu (lambda (x) (f x x)) 0)
19:16:28 <tusho> (mu (lambda (x) (f x y z)) 0)
19:18:09 <tusho> Slereah: Hm, do you want to remove the 0 parameter?
19:19:18 <tusho> Slereah: Can you answer me now.
19:19:23 <tusho> (Speficially, 'see' and 'do you want to remove')
19:19:40 <tusho> Slereah: Look abov.
19:20:09 <tusho> <tusho> Slereah: Heyyy, wait.
19:20:09 <tusho> <tusho> Your current mu is fine!
19:20:09 <tusho> <tusho> (mu (lambda (x) (f x x)) 0)
19:20:09 <tusho> <tusho> (mu (lambda (x) (f x y z)) 0)
19:20:09 <tusho> <tusho> Slereah: See?
19:20:12 <Slereah> Well, I'm okay with removing the zero.
19:20:15 <tusho> Slereah: that's the interseting bit
19:20:20 <tusho> Slereah: i.e. you only need a one-variable mu
19:20:26 <tusho> because you can use a lambda to call the function with moar
19:21:12 <Slereah> I suppose it would be a nice solution.
19:21:32 <tusho> Slereah: Yeah, it's elegant.
19:21:36 <tusho> Slereah: Now, removing the 0...
19:21:44 <tusho> Well, you just need (define (real-mu f) (mu f 0)).
19:21:53 <tusho> Except, rename mu to mu-internal
19:21:58 <tusho> So you can define (mu f)
19:22:07 <tusho> How about a nested define?
19:22:20 <tusho> (define (mu f) (define (inner f n) ... MU CODE HERE ...) (inner f 0))
19:22:25 <tusho> Slereah: Seems like the most elegant to me.
19:22:33 <tusho> (Oh, and start typing this into dr scheme. It'll do that indentation stuff.)
19:22:49 <Slereah> I'm poking around a little first.
19:22:56 <Slereah> . procedure application: expected procedure, given: 1; arguments were: 2
19:23:12 <tusho> Slereah: Uh, you evaluated 'cons', then you evaluated (1 2).
19:23:16 <tusho> You tried to call 1 as a function.
19:23:20 <tusho> On what universe does that make sense?
19:23:32 <tusho> You don't even know the basic syntax of scheme. SICP, srsly.
19:23:58 <Slereah> It makes sense in the Lisp paper :(
19:24:29 <tusho> Nobody used M-Expressions, because:
19:24:40 <tusho> Same syntax for code&data=win.
19:24:55 <augur> your m-expression is also wrong :)
19:25:30 <tusho> I was doing (eval '(cons 1 2)).
19:25:33 <tusho> That is eval[[cons,1,2]].
19:25:39 <tusho> eval[cons[1,2]] is (eval (cons 1 2))
19:25:46 <tusho> augur: M-Expressions do not have quotes.
19:25:48 <augur> eval[quote[cons,1,2]]
19:25:49 <tusho> [a,b,c] is '(a b c)
19:26:00 <augur> i dont use m expressions, you see ^^
19:26:01 <tusho> Ergo, code is different from data, and it was hideously ugly.
19:26:07 <tusho> So they got rid of it
19:26:48 <tusho> augur: that is not a direct equiv.
19:26:51 <tusho> strings are unstructured.
19:26:53 <augur> but the problem THERE is that code and data are so very painful in structure
19:27:03 <augur> in lisp its blindingly simple
19:27:08 <augur> (procname arg arg arg)
19:27:23 <augur> but to eval a string in, say, javascript
19:27:40 <augur> procname + "(" + arg1 + "," + ... + ")"
19:27:51 <augur> which is not as intuitive
19:28:14 <augur> lisp is sexy in regards to reflectivity and such, i agree
19:28:47 <tusho> augur: on another note, )I()£UI)(!U()U¬)(U¬()U)(U¬)¬()¬U)¬
19:29:02 <tusho> oklopol: Neu language syntax: (, ), U, I, ¬ and £
19:29:15 <augur> btw, in his SICP class brian harvey mentioned some sort of book that he read when he was younger which solved the Pilgrims and Cannibals problem in a number of different ways
19:29:47 <augur> and the end of the problem involved constructing a data structure so finely tuned to the problem that you didnt have to do any computation you just read the solution off the structure
19:30:09 <augur> or maybe it was missionaries and cannibals
19:30:15 <augur> the idea is something like this:
19:30:22 <augur> you have a number of missionaries, say
19:30:30 <augur> and they're venturing through cannibal territory
19:30:34 <augur> they have to cross a river
19:31:03 <augur> and if there are ever a small enough group of missionaries, the cannibals will eat them
19:31:35 <augur> so you have to figure out how to transport people across the river in such a way that at no time are N or fewer people alone on either side of the river
19:31:41 <Slereah> Oh. It's like the river crossing problem, except with more cannibals
19:31:54 <augur> and without the fox travelling with you
19:32:02 <augur> the cannibals are on both sides at all times
19:32:20 <Slereah> Can't you offer them the goat?
19:32:38 <augur> supposedly theres a DATA STRUCTURE thats so tuned to the problem that you dont need to do any computation
19:33:28 <tusho> augur: the CannibalDataStructureDeluxe
19:33:51 <Slereah> Is it written in Malbolge?
19:34:21 <Slereah> I wonder, are there trivial programs to write in Malbolge?
19:34:32 <augur> sure, ones that dont work :)
19:35:06 <tusho> Slereah: You can write a generator pretty easily.
19:35:18 <tusho> In lisp! (hi andrew cooke, writer of the malbolge hello-world)
19:35:51 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:37:14 <pikhq> I wonder: is he in here?
19:37:17 <tusho> augur: a code generator for malbolge
19:37:25 <tusho> he's around though
19:37:28 <tusho> http://www.acooke.org/
19:37:42 <pikhq> We need every major esoteric developer in here.
19:37:54 <tusho> warning: tiny font
19:38:02 <pikhq> (I'm sure I've said that in here once before. . . Need to grep the logs)
19:39:15 <tusho> pikhq: let's emulate andrew's style
19:39:24 <tusho> (all lowercase, minimalist, brief)
19:39:24 <Slereah> And let him see what his language has wrought upon this earth
19:39:33 <tusho> i believe he knows
19:39:43 <pikhq> Slereah: Let's bring Sukoshi back here kicking and screaming.
19:39:51 <tusho> (oh, and dense on the information-character ratio)
19:40:10 <pikhq> ... You don't know Sukoshi?
19:40:21 <tusho> he's relatively new pikhq
19:40:29 <pikhq> tusho: Argh. You're right.
19:40:44 <pikhq> Speaking of which. . . tusho, I've never seen you around here.
19:40:45 <augur> i hve a better idea
19:40:45 <augur> why dont we help one another BECOME major esodevers
19:40:45 <augur> surely with our combined efforts we can out esolang the other guys!
19:40:58 <tusho> i may or may not be the one known as ehird, pikhq
19:41:07 <tusho> and you are not emulating andrew's style, heretic!
19:41:18 <pikhq> augur: Some of us *are*.
19:41:35 <tusho> another heretical statement!
19:41:37 <pikhq> Are major esolang developers.
19:41:47 <augur> well then why did you say we needed some? :P
19:41:51 <pikhq> *cough*Gregor*cough*
19:41:53 <augur> whats ais' language?
19:42:03 <tusho> augur: ais won the wolfram prize
19:42:12 <tusho> and maintains c-intercal
19:42:40 <tusho> minimax, backflip, abcdxyz
19:42:47 <tusho> wiki cyclic tag, formula, forte
19:42:50 <tusho> underload, thutu, 1cnis
19:42:59 <tusho> Slereah: someone pikhq knows i think
19:43:02 <Slereah> Underload is quite nice, too.
19:43:34 <augur> oh, so he must've done a cellular automata-like language.
19:44:30 <pikhq> Sukoshi *was* quite frequent in this channel a couple years ago.
19:44:35 <tusho> he did originally but gave it up. he uses perl code in his proof.
19:44:46 <tusho> pikhq: she(?) came in recently, no?
19:45:06 <pikhq> Dammit; I missed it. :(
19:45:07 -!- Hiato1 has joined.
19:45:13 <tusho> pikhq: you were here!
19:45:27 <tusho> Slereah: none, i think
19:45:58 <pikhq> I can't remember which ones she had done ATM, sadly.
19:46:16 <Slereah> Then she's no big time esolanger :o
19:46:26 <tusho> Slereah: she's not, no
19:46:29 <tusho> at least, not afaik
19:47:02 <pikhq> Among other things, she has designed a Brainfuck CPU in Verilog.
19:47:26 <pikhq> I don't think she got *hers* out on the web, though.
19:47:26 <Slereah> That one? http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcpu.html
19:47:49 <tusho> so, who here is excited about eso-std.org's future riches? like: pastebin with ais523-coded intercal highlighting, an online code-tester and REPL for the langs, integrated into the pastebin (for when you don't have an interpreter lying around), etc.
19:48:03 <tusho> because, I actually have a server up.
19:48:18 <Slereah> Will we have an eso police to enforce the ESO standard?
19:48:20 <oklopol> that does sound pretty great
19:48:53 <pikhq> Sukoshi was also somewhat influential on the design of PEBBLE.
19:49:20 <pikhq> (although oerjan takes the prize for 'most help'. . .)
19:49:42 <tusho> but I'm currently hanging on a pun of 'Esoteric Standards'
19:49:44 <Slereah> Shoot to kill if you see another Brainfuck clone!
19:49:55 <pikhq> Slereah: Even if it's creative?
19:49:59 <pikhq> (see: Dimensifuck)
19:50:02 <tusho> standards in the sinatra sense: that way we can include 'the best' of esolang tools.
19:50:10 <tusho> as well as well, actual standards
19:50:12 <pikhq> (see: Dimensifuck)
19:50:25 <tusho> dimensifuck, You Are Reading The Name Of This Esolang, ...
19:50:40 <Slereah> Well, those already exist.
19:51:07 <pikhq> But they *are* creative Brainfuck clones.
19:52:00 <tusho> oklopol: it will be awesome yes
19:53:48 <oklopol> my hot comment was about sukoshi :)
19:53:56 <augur> i wonder what sort of data structure solves the missionaries problem
19:54:10 <augur> you know, i think i know
19:54:43 <Slereah> Many little huts, I suppose
19:55:01 <augur> i think it'd be the set of partitions
19:55:16 <augur> tho that would still require some computation.. hm.
19:55:33 <Slereah> Just do motherfucking brute force!
19:55:34 <augur> you'd need to read through and look for partition diffs which fit the constraints imposed by the problem
19:56:44 -!- jix has joined.
19:56:52 <augur> there are only 2^N possible partitions, where N is the number of cannibals and missionaries together
19:57:01 <lament> tusho: why do you object?
19:57:10 <tusho> lament: irseek sucks
19:57:22 <tusho> it's commercialised, the site interface is tacky, and the current way works fine
19:57:32 <lament> The current way doesn't work fine. I banned cmeme.
19:57:40 <tusho> lament: cmeme does ircbrowse.com.
19:58:01 <tusho> lament: Anyway, eso-std.org is up and ready to host a logbot with full searching and a 'pretty' interface if ever needs be
19:58:08 <lament> tusho: how is irseek commercialized?
19:58:11 <tusho> and ais523 has root to that as well as me, and I can give you it if you like
19:58:29 <tusho> lament: it's a company and they're primarily out to make money.
19:58:33 <tusho> what other definition is there?
19:58:45 <lament> tusho: do you think that can negatively affect the channel in any way?
19:58:54 <tusho> lament: i dislike the service because of it
19:59:01 <tusho> so I would not wish for it to be the logger of this channel
19:59:10 <lament> i'm not saying they should be the logger.
19:59:22 <tusho> lament: I would not wish for them to log it.
19:59:32 <tusho> I have already explained why.
19:59:57 <lament> The presence of irseekbot in here won't cause you any harm.
20:00:03 <tusho> out of the interests of keeping a company's hands off of this channel, and because it's not a very good service in my mind anyway.
20:00:34 <tusho> lament: looking at what it _would_ offer us, positively, is a nice search function and a pretty log view.
20:00:44 <tusho> eso-std can start logging today and have an interface that nice by tomorrow, most likely.
20:00:57 <lament> tusho: and some free publicity. People use irseek.
20:00:58 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:01:06 <lament> When they search irseek for things like brainfuck, they will not find us.
20:01:17 <tusho> lament: good: we'd end up banning them for being annoying spammers, mostly.
20:01:19 <lament> People who search eso-std already fonud us.
20:01:28 <tusho> Have you seen some people who have just found brainfuck?
20:01:33 <lament> tusho: So you object to this channel being more widely known?
20:01:40 <lament> You want to keep it a secret?
20:01:52 <tusho> lament: because of its subject matter and what i've seen... I don't think advertising via irseek is a good idea.
20:02:01 <lament> it's not advertising, it's logging
20:02:12 <lament> what i really don't get is freenode policy
20:02:13 <tusho> lament: but you just gave it advertising us indirectly as a good point
20:02:15 <lament> this is a public channel
20:02:35 <lament> without freenode's silly policy, any logger could join it anyway
20:02:46 <tusho> lament: Anti-case: #wikipedia
20:02:49 <lament> i don't understand why that should not be allowed, provided the bot doesn't disturb anyone
20:02:55 <lament> what happened in #wikipedia?
20:03:02 <tusho> Daniel Brandt of wikipedia-review constantly scours logs for personal information and anything he can use against them,
20:03:10 <tusho> quotes it out of context, and puts it on his wikipedia-watch site.
20:03:13 <lament> well, we're already logged
20:03:16 <tusho> He puts secret loggers in there.
20:03:26 <tusho> the freenode policy is useful to them because they can stop him
20:03:27 <lament> being logged in a different place won't change the fact that all our logs are already online
20:03:28 <augur> i think i know what the data structure is :o
20:03:48 <lament> you can ask the irseek people to get rid of the bot at any time
20:04:03 <lament> i just don't see any benefit to _not_ having it here
20:04:07 <tusho> lament: I would but I doubt they'd listen.
20:04:22 <tusho> Meh, anyway that log interface sounds like a fun project anyway. I'll probably start working on it.
20:04:23 <lament> after the bad PR they got initially, they're really trying to be nice
20:07:43 <lament> well, i won't invite them if you object to it
20:07:58 <lament> but i still don't understand your reasoning
20:08:23 <lament> "they're commercial therefore it's somehow bad in principle"
20:12:55 <Slereah> What the fuck is google code
20:14:24 <tusho> a google code search
20:18:47 <oklopol> i thought it was something a bit more extensive than the codesearch
20:18:52 <oklopol> not that i actually know / care
20:19:11 <oklopol> lament: just ban tusho and let them put the bot here, tusho's new, who cares ;)
20:19:44 <Slereah> Come on, tusho is awesome!
20:19:51 <tusho> yeah I only came in here a few days ago!
20:20:05 <Slereah> But already, he's taking the channel by storm!
20:21:32 <lament> i think that's not fair
20:21:40 <lament> i think we should invite irseekbot into the channel, and let them duel
20:21:44 <tusho> lament: (i'm ehird.)
20:21:53 <tusho> OH SHIT, now you have reason to ban me!
20:22:26 <lament> man against the machine!
20:22:39 <tusho> That musta been a good kill.
20:25:21 <lament> what digital camera should i buy?
20:27:55 <augur> i think ive found all solutions for the 3x3 missionary problem :o
20:29:35 <augur> 3 missionaries, 3 cannibals.
20:30:05 <augur> well, there are infinitely many solutions, but only a finite number without repetition
20:30:59 <Slereah> and I assume that the goal is to make it short
20:31:23 <augur> through the solution space
20:37:59 <tusho> is graue ever around?
20:54:12 -!- pikhq has left (?).
21:07:27 -!- Deformati has joined.
21:10:25 <Slereah> What is the purpose of "let"?
21:11:03 <augur> in a functional way
21:11:16 <augur> in lisp, for instance
21:11:17 -!- Hiato1 has quit ("Leaving.").
21:11:34 <augur> ((lambda (x) ...) 5)
21:12:25 <augur> (let ((x 5) (y 10)) ...) -> ((lambda (x y) ...) 5 10)
21:15:10 <augur> in some languages let is just the var decl keyword
21:15:15 <tusho> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZ
21:15:15 <tusho> ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:17:51 <tusho> ZZZzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzZZzzzZZZzzzzzZZZzzzZZZzzzzZZzzzzZZzzzZZZzzzZZZz
21:18:04 <augur> hello world program?
21:18:17 <augur> is there an esolang with unary numbers?
21:18:22 <augur> thats like brainfuck or something right?
21:18:38 <Slereah> Programs in it are impossibly long.
21:18:41 <augur> but like languages without number prims
21:18:46 <augur> where you have to increment a counter
21:18:55 <augur> is effectively unary
21:19:04 <augur> is brainfuck/befunge/etc like that?
21:19:19 <Slereah> Unary uses Brainfuck with three bits per instruction
21:19:34 <Slereah> And then converts it to unary, with "0" as a symbol.
21:20:36 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/info/6m5el/comments/c048udz MESSAGE OF THE DAY.
21:21:22 <tusho> Slereah: simplest way to do unary BF:
21:21:30 <tusho> treat it as a string of ascii characters
21:21:35 <Slereah> "Imperative languages generally rely on a concept of linear time, while aliens, as we know, are fully 4-dimensional beings, able to move back on forth in time freely."
21:22:08 -!- Deformative has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:22:18 <augur> aliens program functionally :)
21:22:34 <tusho> Slereah: well, imagine this
21:22:47 <tusho> that's 4 ascii characters (err, whatever)
21:22:51 <tusho> it's 4 bytes, regardless.
21:23:02 <tusho> Just convert that hex number into unary
21:23:07 <tusho> Fucking huge, yes. But tada.
21:23:17 <tusho> Then just do it in reverse and feed it into an interp
21:24:29 <tusho> Slereah: Well, hello world - ,[.,] - is insanely large in it.
21:26:54 <augur> functional reactive programming has temporal entities as first class values
21:27:14 <tusho> augur: I am going to write a C->Lisp compiler in Lisp.y/n
21:27:32 <tusho> Slereah: your second deduction is wrong
21:27:53 <tusho> augur: because the other way is more common
21:27:57 <tusho> and I like c compilers
21:28:31 <augur> 1f5b2e1f5d in binary wouldnt be billions of bits
21:28:44 <augur> it would be 40 bits.
21:28:48 <Slereah> No, but 1f5b2e1f5d in unary would be.
21:29:01 <augur> then dont use the term bits :p
21:29:11 <Slereah> But you could encode them with bits
21:29:25 <Slereah> (Because well, you do need eof)
21:30:35 <tusho> cycle the program!
21:30:49 <tusho> If you cycle the program it's just 1=1+x
21:31:13 <tusho> now, who wants to hear my cool anti-spam idea.
21:31:35 <Slereah> It would probably better to change hex to something lighter.
21:31:38 <augur> thats a useless program.
21:31:38 <augur> reactive programming
21:31:44 <Slereah> For instance, code with 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8
21:32:13 <tusho> Well yeah. but still
21:32:21 <tusho> augur: want to hear my anti-spam idya?
21:33:19 <tusho> augur: it's very awesome
21:35:09 <augur> john c dvorak gets no spam
21:35:30 <tusho> augur: dvorak is a self-aware idiot
21:35:44 <augur> a self-aware idiot that gets no spam!
21:35:48 <tusho> that is, he's aware he's an idiot and does it for the money and fame
21:35:53 <tusho> and he's also a total fuckwit
21:38:18 <tusho> it's similar to spampoison but cleverer.
21:38:37 <tusho> basically, on every page on your site link to this page (just put it as 'Anti-spam' or something)
21:38:44 <tusho> on every page with an email address
21:38:48 <tusho> put it a few times at the top
21:39:02 <tusho> has the regular loads-of-fake-random-email-addrs
21:39:14 <tusho> they're @male.yourdomain (yes, male :P)
21:39:38 <tusho> which is a seed to generate more emails
21:39:48 <tusho> whenever anyone emails to @male.yourdomain
21:39:53 <tusho> it logs their email and info
21:39:58 <tusho> and BANS THEM from emailing anything @yourdomain
21:40:14 <tusho> (at the top of the page is a note telling you that in big bold letters so real users don't do it)
21:40:47 <tusho> now you not only block spammers before they get to harvesting your addr [because the link is first] but you have a list of spammers!
21:41:56 <tusho> augur: ooh, another idea
21:42:01 <tusho> when you DO email @male.yourdomain
21:42:16 <Slereah> Do you even need to have the email adresses on the site?
21:42:16 <tusho> it bounces back an email saying 'You have been automatically banned by this anti-spam blah blah blah'
21:42:28 <tusho> 'To unban yourself, reply to this email (quoting it)'
21:42:29 <Slereah> Or is there a way to put it in the sourcecode
21:42:35 <tusho> and it has a thing like
21:42:36 <Slereah> So that only spambots will see it
21:42:39 <tusho> '98e79d87a98479374923487f98d948yr943uf8r34'
21:43:02 <tusho> when it receives that to, like, @male-unblock.yourdomain
21:43:03 <tusho> it unblocks the email
21:43:14 <tusho> (since only a human would be able to reply to that correctly)
21:43:16 <tusho> Slereah: For a start it must be a seperate pgae for the 'moar' trick
21:43:20 <tusho> and a lot of spammers e.g. automate IE
21:43:26 <tusho> so only _viewable_ stuff is counted
21:43:53 <tusho> it's just a discreet link
21:43:55 <tusho> at the bottom of your page
21:43:58 <tusho> in small font if you like
21:44:08 <Slereah> Make it black on a black background!
21:44:17 <tusho> (and at the top of pages that have emails, in a small font: '(If you're a spammer, you might like [this], [this], or maybe [even this])')
21:44:26 <tusho> Slereah: Only viewable links are 100% guaranteed to work
21:44:40 <tusho> Slereah: Because a lot of them automate IE.
21:44:49 <tusho> to avoid traps like this
21:44:55 <Slereah> But isn't black on a black background still visible for a robot?
21:44:55 <tusho> if they don't they will in the future
21:45:03 <tusho> Slereah: Not if it automates IE.
21:45:12 <tusho> This is what it does:
21:45:26 <tusho> - their email database becomes commercially useless
21:45:34 <tusho> - they cannot email you spam
21:45:40 <tusho> - you have a list of all spammers
21:45:59 <tusho> You could report the list to the police, for instance. Or give it to an anti-spam project.
21:46:25 <tusho> (To avoid lawsuits, put at the top of the page something like 'By sending messages to this address, you hereby agree to have your details recorded and sent off and blah blah asshole')
21:46:44 <Slereah> What if they call robo-lawyer?
21:47:07 <tusho> Slereah: well, 'or use a program on behalf of yourself'
21:47:24 <tusho> but, robo-lawyers are PURELY LOGICAL BEINGS and therefore can't use the chewbacca defense
21:47:26 <tusho> I think we're safe
21:47:35 <tusho> besides, a spammer prosecuting someone for fighting spam? That'll never fly.
21:47:41 <Slereah> You can use the old logic bomb.
21:48:00 * tusho has quit (Read error from host)
21:48:09 <Slereah> Tusho was a robot all along!
21:48:17 * tusho has joined #esoteric
21:48:20 * tusho has left #esoteric
21:49:18 <tusho> wait why am i still here
21:50:02 * tusho has quit (Read error from host)
21:50:25 <augur> it doesnt help that you can tell the difference between server messages and /me messages
21:50:41 <tusho> augur: I'll just hack the server than
21:50:55 * tusho has quit (Killed: K-Line by lilo: OVER MY DEAD BO- wait)
21:51:12 <tusho> why didn't I make a dead lilo joke earlier, I wonder
21:51:20 <tusho> i am normally master of the Too Soon
21:52:38 <Slereah> I only ever saw porn of it, so I don't know much!
21:53:25 <Slereah> The translation from limp to scheme isn't that hard for the functional part
21:53:29 <Slereah> It's mostly already there!
21:53:35 <tusho> augur: lilo - founder of freenode
21:53:46 <tusho> car hit bike splat lol coma (time passes) oh he died
21:54:00 <Slereah> Was he in the car or on the bike
21:54:35 <Slereah> Problem is, I'm not too sure how to do a conditional in pi calculus
21:54:47 <Slereah> Without adding some operator to it
21:54:56 <tusho> Slereah: Make it lambdalicious
21:55:37 <Slereah> Well, the thing is, the only thing I have no idea how to do is how to do input on a conditional.
21:56:10 <Slereah> For the output, since it will depend on the functions, I can just output 0.
21:56:37 <Slereah> Why don't you marry it then.
21:57:02 <tusho> SICP IS A POLYGAMISRT
21:57:16 <augur> its a neat language
21:57:20 <augur> leave ungers language alone!
21:57:47 <tusho> BEST LANGUAGE: N+1Q
22:00:25 <Slereah> since there's no difference between a channel and an object in pi.
22:00:38 <tusho> Slereah: channel=object=LAMBDA
22:00:40 <Slereah> The input or not could be decided by a function too.
22:01:01 <Slereah> Instead of doing a(x), I could do f(stuff)(x)
22:01:20 <Slereah> I dunno. I sort of wanted to keep the two separated.
22:01:37 <Slereah> I'd better wait for the book t get a better feel of pi.
22:02:07 <Slereah> For I made it my life mission to bring to life the neglected computational models in esoteria.
22:03:32 <Slereah> tusho : Neglected, not non-existent
22:03:38 <tusho> Slereah: Invent it!
22:04:04 <augur> is there any programming language thats not piet-like which requires the you program visually in order to actually achieve anything quickly?
22:04:08 <tusho> Slereah: But ... you're Slereah
22:04:19 <tusho> non-eso, well. eso.
22:05:45 -!- Deformati has changed nick to Deformative.
22:14:07 <augur> im looking at subtext
22:16:20 <tusho> Subtext sucks yeah
22:16:49 <augur> i can easily imagine a text based language that achieves similar results
22:16:54 <tusho> I'm workign on a fun dependently-typed language
22:17:03 <tusho> Basic syntax, basically like haskell.
22:17:17 <tusho> id : forall \a. a -> a; id a = a;
22:18:30 <tusho> augur: forall is a function
22:18:35 <tusho> forall : (Type -> a) -> a
22:18:40 <tusho> (\a. b) is a lambda
22:18:47 <tusho> like Haskell's (\a -> b)
22:18:52 <tusho> because: forall : (Type -> a) -> a
22:19:02 <augur> oh i see what you're doing
22:19:29 <tusho> augur: types are just code
22:19:40 <augur> but i dont see how your forall is working
22:19:47 <tusho> augur: well, the function itself is magical
22:19:51 <tusho> forall (\a. a -> a)
22:19:56 <tusho> it's just calling forall with a function
22:19:59 <tusho> that takes a type and returns a type
22:20:03 <augur> but whats the functon?
22:20:06 <tusho> augur: a primitive
22:20:13 <tusho> it's just Haskell's 'forall'
22:20:20 <augur> no i mean what is (\a. a -> a)
22:20:52 <tusho> augur: uh, a function
22:20:56 <tusho> it takes an argument a, and returns (a -> a)
22:21:02 <tusho> (->) : Type -> Type -> Type;
22:21:06 <tusho> it's the function type
22:21:20 <tusho> forall \a. a -> a : Type
22:21:22 <augur> haskell doesnt do it that way
22:21:29 <tusho> augur: haskell has a seperate type and value language
22:21:38 <tusho> in this, the type system language is the value language
22:21:41 <augur> in haskell the id function would be of type
22:21:46 <tusho> augur: I know haskell, kthx.
22:21:58 <tusho> But apparently you were not telling the truth when you said you understood types as values..
22:22:07 <augur> no, i didnt understand your notation
22:22:34 <tusho> augur: can you understand this
22:23:06 <Slereah> What's a kitty program in Scheme?
22:23:13 <augur> yes, its a function func applied to a lambda \a.a+1
22:23:16 <Slereah> Googling cat and scheme did not fare too well.
22:23:27 <tusho> augur: what about this
22:23:30 <tusho> forall (\a. a + 1)
22:23:36 <tusho> it's a function forall applied to a lambda \a.a+1
22:23:55 <tusho> (->) : Type -> Type -> Type;
22:24:04 <tusho> that is, (a -> b) where a and b are types, is a type
22:24:09 <tusho> augur: (->) is just a regular function
22:24:13 <tusho> takes two types, returns a type.
22:24:14 <tusho> Denotes a function.
22:24:17 <tusho> augur: Understand so far?
22:24:34 <tusho> forall (\a. a -> a)
22:24:58 <tusho> forall : forall \a. (Type -> a) -> a; (Yes obviously we get into recursion here.)
22:25:08 <tusho> So, {{forall (\a. a -> a)}} is a Type.
22:25:15 <tusho> It happens to be the type of id.
22:25:29 <augur> ok now i think you're over my head but whatever :P
22:25:42 <tusho> you understand forall (\a. b)
22:25:49 <tusho> but not forall (\a. a -> b)?
22:25:51 <tusho> that makes no sense
22:26:09 <tusho> Slereah: ok, do _you_ grok dependent types
22:28:21 <oklopol> augur: is there an esolang with unary numbers? <<< in many languages you have to build numbers from zero and succ, and in many languages you just have increment, decrement and zero-check, but "having unary numbers" doesn't really mean anything :)
22:28:35 <tusho> oklopol: do you understand dependent types
22:29:12 <augur> tusho doesnt like that i didnt understand him so now hes determined to find someone who does understand him so he wont feel alone
22:29:33 <augur> tusho: my problem is more with your use of forall on a LAMBDA not on a TYPE
22:29:36 <augur> thats what i dont get
22:29:51 <Slereah> Don't worry tusho, we still love you
22:29:57 <tusho> augur: forall gives its lambda a forall'd type.
22:29:59 <Slereah> Even if you love dependant types
22:30:09 <tusho> forall (\a. In here, 'a' is a 'forall'd type)
22:30:19 <tusho> augur: one line up.
22:30:21 <tusho> forall (\a. In here, 'a' is a 'forall'd type)
22:30:34 <tusho> augur: what? what? what? what? what?
22:30:37 <tusho> forall (\a. In here, 'a' is a 'forall'd type)
22:30:46 <augur> i can keep typing what all night long
22:31:08 <tusho> augur: maybe you would get further if you explained which part doesn't make sense.
22:31:20 <augur> i did: foralling a lambda.
22:31:29 <tusho> augur: how about this
22:31:38 <tusho> giveMeAForalldTypePlease (\a. In here, 'a' is a 'forall'd type)
22:31:49 <augur> nope, that makes no sense.
22:31:56 <tusho> augur: why the hell not
22:32:03 <augur> because you're confusing.
22:32:24 <tusho> augur: 'forall a. b' in haskell
22:32:34 <tusho> 'give me a forall'd type - call it a - and then, b'
22:32:49 <tusho> my 'forall' just makes that explicit: the 'giving' is where it gives it to the function it's passed.
22:33:23 <augur> well your forall is confusing to me.
22:33:36 <oklopol> i don't see why people are so obsessed with preventing spam, i never get any, and i always boldly give out my villsalo@tkukoulu.fi email address without encryption
22:33:40 <tusho> augur: wow really.
22:33:50 <augur> haskells is clearer to me, yes.
22:34:04 <tusho> augur: yes, but haskell is two languages
22:34:09 <tusho> 'haskell', and 'haskell's types'
22:34:12 <tusho> mine is just one unified language.
22:34:19 <tusho> it is its own type system
22:34:28 <tusho> oklopol: sure - but this way lets you report spammers
22:36:39 <Slereah> Is there a list of cat programs somewhere?
22:38:08 <oklopol> nopol is based on nop-calculus ofc
22:38:33 <augur> tusho did you just confuse the haskellians as well? lol
22:39:00 <tusho> augur: most of them actually understand dependent types, types-as-values, values-as-types, and type systems
22:39:03 <tusho> far more than me, too
22:39:11 <tusho> so, no, you're the only confused one
22:39:24 <augur> and yet they're not assholes when someone doesnt understand it like you are
22:39:44 <tusho> augur: I haven't been an asshole.
22:39:44 <augur> they're kind and gentle and loving
22:39:47 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:39:52 <tusho> If you'd kindly point out where I have been...
22:41:32 -!- jfredett has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:42:01 <tusho> wait, no, I'm not into that
22:42:50 <Slereah> This will be archived and held against you.
22:43:25 <tusho> Slereah: I've said far worse
22:43:42 <oklopol> tusho: i admit reporting spammers is fun, but i don't actually have anything against them
22:46:14 <augur> ok so tell me what you think of this model for a reactive language's implementation: you'd set up your definitions, like x^2 + y -> z, which would get transformed into a dependency table like x: (z,x^2 + y), y: (z,x^2+y)
22:47:15 <augur> when x or y is changed, the interpreter looks up the variable in the dependency table, and for all pairs, it goes through and updates the values in each of those variables useing the stored function
22:47:38 <augur> the arrow showing dependencies
22:47:54 <augur> x -> y means "the value of x gets pushed into y"
22:48:01 <augur> so whenever you change x, you also force a change in y
22:48:21 <augur> its sort of the reverse of a function i guess you could say
22:48:40 <oklopol> i guess you could say it's "="
22:48:59 <augur> if you had a function like z = x^2 + y, whenever you ask for z, it goes out and finds x and y and performs the function and returns the value
22:49:04 <augur> whereas reactively the reverse happens
22:49:26 <augur> whenever you change x or y, the change cascades to everything thats defined in terms of it
22:50:36 <augur> its just functions from the other direction
22:50:49 <augur> functions get called, which pulls values int
22:51:01 <augur> reactions get triggered, which pushes values out
22:51:27 <augur> functions get values when values are requested, reactions push values when values change
22:52:21 <oklopol> dataflow programming, i get it
22:52:32 <augur> well, reactive programming, but sure.
22:53:40 <augur> anyway, so thats my idea of interpreting it: when you set up a reaction like x^2 + y -> z
22:54:07 <augur> what the interpreter does is set up an entry in the dependency table for x and for y, each saying that z gets the value x^2+y
22:54:49 <augur> so when you say 5 -> y, or something, the interpreter looks up y and says, aha, z depends on y, let me set the new value of z.
22:55:44 -!- Judofyr has quit.
22:56:39 <oklopol> AND FIXED-POINTS FOR CIRCULAR DEPENDENCY!!
22:56:48 <oklopol> EF, HAVE I MENTIONED EF TODAY??!?!?
22:57:25 <tusho> oklopol: now what I said about all expressions returning infinite values, your directed-to-halting-problem-computation idea, where the halting function returns the infinite cyclic list of {T,F,T,F,T,F,...}, and how every expression filters over the infinite set of everything
22:57:53 -!- Corun has joined.
22:59:26 <Slereah> Hm. I should start writing up the specs for Limp while waiting for the pi.0
23:02:51 <oklopol> i was thinking, quining + H()
23:03:02 <tusho> oklopol: ok, now we have to munge that into my infinite-list-of-values thing
23:03:07 <tusho> I already mugned H() into it as you can see
23:03:11 <tusho> so we need to munge the quining into this paradigm
23:03:21 <tusho> and then make it into the exprs-filter-everything paradigm
23:03:22 <oklopol> H() needs to be the only way to loop
23:03:23 <tusho> once we've done that
23:03:26 <tusho> WE GET THE LANGUAGE!
23:04:11 <oklopol> ALSO ALL SENTENCES CONTAINING THE NAME THE LANGUAGE SHOULD BE IN CAPS.
23:04:43 <tusho> THE LANGUAGE WILL BE AWESOME
23:04:49 <tusho> oklopol: wow, it's like those right-to-left unicode characters
23:04:53 <tusho> they affect everything around them
23:04:59 -!- timotiis has joined.
23:06:34 <oklopol> exactly what i was thingering
23:08:54 <tusho> oklopol: this is great
23:09:00 <tusho> oklopol: and this language is even implementable
23:09:05 <tusho> because H doesnt' actually caclulate it
23:09:17 <tusho> it just gives a cyclic list of both possibilities (T and F)
23:09:21 <tusho> so it's not very useful
23:17:21 <oklopol> i'm not in a very intelligent mood atm, so i can only humor you with random comments
23:17:37 <Slereah> I almost made a cat program
23:17:44 <oklopol> but i do think H might own in an esolang, as a looping construct
23:18:49 <Slereah> What does not compute in ((u) (u) (display (read))?
23:18:55 <Slereah> Where u is the Turing combinator.
23:19:16 <Slereah> It asks for input, output it, and then asks for input but never output it anymore.
23:20:13 <tusho> Slereah: Define u.
23:20:37 <tusho> Slereah: (And why not just use a regular loop? Scheme isn't combinator-land.)
23:20:39 <Slereah> (define (u) (lambda (x y) (y (x x y))
23:21:00 <Slereah> Well, I made the same program in Lazy Bird.
23:21:11 <Slereah> So I thought I might as well get my money's worth
23:21:37 <Slereah> Plus I'm not sure how to loop in scheme.
23:22:11 <tusho> Slereah: (u) is returning a lambda
23:22:18 -!- revcompgeek has joined.
23:22:19 <tusho> (define (u x y) (y (x x y)))
23:22:21 <Slereah> I could use recursion to get in the functional mood, but well.
23:22:39 <Slereah> Does it matter that it's a lambda?
23:23:32 <tusho> Slereah: (define (u) (lambda
23:23:43 <tusho> Why is 'u' a function that does nothing but return another function?
23:23:50 <tusho> Why not just define u to be the function:
23:23:53 <tusho> (define u (lambda (x y) ...
23:24:05 <tusho> Which then, optionally, reduces to (define (u x y) ...
23:24:19 <Slereah> Well, it's all fine and dandy
23:24:23 <tusho> oklopol: Slereah is treating scheme like a cross of Python and the lambda calculus, which is resulting in MUCH FUN for me..
23:24:26 <tusho> Slereah: No, no it's not.
23:24:35 <Slereah> But it works exactly the same way as the lambda :o
23:26:40 <tusho> Because you're not learning scheme, you're just inputting crap into the interp.
23:26:50 -!- oklofok has joined.
23:27:00 <Slereah> The first y could probably go away
23:39:21 -!- Slereah5 has joined.
23:40:01 <Slereah5> [00:26:52] <Slereah> The first y could probably go away
23:40:01 <Slereah5> [00:27:33] <Slereah> It works no better :o
23:40:09 <tusho> <Slereah> It works no better :o
23:40:09 <tusho> * Slereah5 (n=hax@ANantes-252-1-5-151.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #esoteric
23:40:25 <tusho> Slereah: I hope you're using the Dr Scheme IDE?
23:40:34 <tusho> And not, like, editing with notepad and running it from the commandline.
23:40:44 <tusho> Slereah: And actually running the scheme inside it?
23:40:46 <tusho> With the Run button?
23:41:31 <tusho> Slereah: What, then?
23:46:38 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out).
23:49:00 -!- Slereah5 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:49:15 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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23:49:48 -!- Slereah5 has changed nick to Slereah.
23:56:49 <Slereah> Them Scheme input is no fun.
23:56:59 <Slereah> Or output, I'm not too sure
23:58:45 <Slereah> Well, it works perfectly with input alone
00:01:03 <tusho> (read) only reads an s-expr.
00:01:06 <tusho> Hello world <-- won't work
00:01:16 <tusho> Slereah: Basically, (read) reads some Scheme code.
00:01:54 <Slereah> But, display (read) works as a one time occurence :o
00:02:14 <tusho> Slereah: Shut up. (read) reads a peice of scheme code.
00:02:21 <tusho> That's all you need to know.
00:02:36 <tusho> Slereah: What are you using instead of the run button
00:02:51 <Slereah> I was using the command line of Dr Scheme
00:03:14 <tusho> Slereah: You are running the graphical IDE. Yes?
00:05:41 <Slereah> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2554098095_a9cd81f67b_o.jpg
00:05:41 <Slereah> What unholy magic is this :o
00:05:48 <tusho> Slereah: So, you are typing in the window.
00:05:55 <tusho> A screen will appear at the bottom.
00:06:01 <tusho> Where you can type scheme code and have it show the result.
00:06:05 <tusho> And it'll run your program in it.
00:06:08 <Slereah> Already did, as soon as you mentioned it!
00:06:20 <tusho> Slereah: Hokay. :P
00:06:25 <tusho> Well 'butt' displays because it's parsed as a symbol.
00:06:29 <tusho> Slereah: Try this.
00:06:46 <tusho> Because read READS A SCHEME EXPRESSION.
00:06:58 <Slereah> Well, what is the input-as-string?
00:07:07 <tusho> Slereah: Well, (read-line) will do
00:07:10 <tusho> Something like this:
00:07:17 -!- revcompgeek has left (?).
00:07:31 <tusho> (define (cat) (display (read-line)) (cat))
00:07:33 <tusho> Doesn't do EOF, but who cares.
00:07:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:07:39 <tusho> Use as (cat) in the REPL after running
00:07:48 <Slereah> "reference to undefined identifier: read-line"
00:08:32 <tusho> Slereah: Hokay, let me figure out what mzscheme calls it
00:08:59 <Slereah> I set the language to R5RS, is it the awesome one
00:09:07 -!- timotiis has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:09:12 <tusho> Set it to Standard.
00:09:24 <tusho> It's set at "R5RS".
00:11:04 <tusho> Slereah: PLT->Textual.
00:11:09 <augur> what on earth are you kids doing
00:11:17 <tusho> R5RS is the scheme standard specification, but it's what's referred to as "HILARIOUSLY MINIMAL"
00:11:31 <tusho> PLT->Textual is pretty much like R5RS except it has like 453507349853457934859385 more function.
00:11:43 <tusho> It's the 'MzScheme language', basically.
00:11:51 <tusho> (MzScheme is PLT's scheme implementation, that the DrScheme IDE uses)
00:12:17 <tusho> Slereah: Then click Run again.
00:12:24 <tusho> The read-line stuff should work.
00:12:50 <tusho> Slereah: Who cares, that code was frankly messed up.
00:12:56 <tusho> By the by, are you putting yer newlines in the right place?
00:13:00 <tusho> (display (read-line))
00:13:06 <tusho> (display (read-line))
00:13:14 <tusho> Slereah: You should put all the ending parens on the same line ye see.
00:13:20 <tusho> None of this c-style:
00:13:53 <tusho> Slereah: Shush you.
00:13:56 <Slereah> Or work only once, that is
00:14:26 <tusho> Slereah: Either read sicp if you want to know or just do what I say. :P
00:14:34 <Slereah> Ill urine won't help me much.
00:14:44 <Slereah> I doubt I'll be able to read it all before going to bed!
00:15:05 <Slereah> Or possibly understand it. You never know with those computer fellows.
00:15:28 <Slereah> Why, is there a feature movie now?
00:15:40 <augur> no you can watch the original lectures
00:15:46 <tusho> <Slereah> Or find the related part
00:15:46 <augur> http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
00:15:52 <tusho> What is so hard about reading it in order?
00:15:56 <oklofok> that would be such a cool name if it wasn't the exact opposite of a name.
00:15:57 <tusho> Jeez. It's a book, not a reference.
00:15:59 <augur> you can also watch berkeley's more confusing version with brian harvey
00:16:03 <augur> http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978502
00:16:10 <Slereah> tusho : Length and the fact that it goes through a lot of already known stuff
00:16:11 <tusho> You're meant to read it from start to end, in order, and read all of it.
00:16:24 <augur> i agree with tusho
00:16:29 <tusho> Slereah: Well I'm not gonna help you until you do, because you're making it hard for yourself and asking us questions it can answer.
00:16:30 <augur> done use it as a ref
00:16:38 <Slereah> augur : I read sexuality into that
00:16:55 <tusho> Slereah: You read sexuality into everything, especially SICP, which you use as an excuse to ignore it's content.
00:16:55 <augur> ::sexualities you::
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00:17:14 <Slereah> Nah, I only read D&D in SICP
00:17:41 <Slereah> http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/wizard.jpg
00:17:48 <Slereah> That's what I'm talking about.
00:17:57 <augur> and you'll be a wizard
00:18:26 <tusho> augur: I think Slereah has severe ADHD and also a joy of giving people questions that he has the materials with which to answer himself but which he ignores so he can 'read D&D into them'
00:18:30 <tusho> it's happened before..
00:18:49 <augur> when sussman does over the metacircular evaluator
00:19:00 <augur> he dones a fez and a nice jacket
00:19:15 <augur> and they play also sprach zarathustra
00:19:24 <Slereah> Indiana Jones would kick his ass in a second.
00:21:11 <Slereah> Reading online books is not a lot of fun, tusho
00:21:39 <tusho> Slereah: Get a hard copy.
00:21:50 <augur> http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/index.htm
00:21:52 <tusho> From ze MIT press!
00:21:58 <augur> mit open course ware on EE and CS
00:22:11 <Slereah> Well, it would take a week to arrive.
00:22:26 <augur> you can masturbate in the mean time.
00:22:44 <Slereah> Although maybe they got it in town.
00:23:10 <oklofok> Slereah: don't read SICP, it'll prolly kill you, just use it as a ref, and ask questions here whenever you're not sure if it might answer them
00:23:22 <lament> don't read sicp, you're too stupid for it!
00:23:52 <Slereah> I see what you did there --_--
00:25:49 <oklofok> well probably with THOSE MASSIVE EYES
00:26:22 <oklofok> i don't really have an opinion about whether sicp should be read, although it is a nice book
00:26:56 <tusho> oklofok: it should certainly be read if you're writing terrible scheme and expecting us to help
00:27:07 <tusho> especially if you're writing A COMPILER.
00:27:12 <tusho> which is, uh, kind of SICP's forte
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00:35:58 <oklofok> i don't have a single opinion atm.
00:41:04 <augur> so hows the c-to-lisp compiler coming
00:41:25 <augur> you should do a lisp-to-brainfuck compiler.
00:41:57 <lament> lisp not fucked up enough already?
00:42:46 <oklofok> don't look at me i didn't do it
00:44:17 <tusho> lisp-to-brainfuck ain't that hard
00:44:22 <tusho> lisp->c then use c->bf
00:52:16 <augur> c->lisp->bf->haskell
00:53:49 <Asztal> I want the c->befunge compiler to be completed
00:53:57 <Asztal> I know it will never happen, but I can hope :)
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00:55:21 <tusho> augur: c->haskell isn't that hard
00:55:26 <tusho> you can even do pureness analysis
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00:55:35 <tusho> by storing extra type information
00:55:54 <augur> yes but is c->lisp->bf->haskell hard? i suspect so! :o
00:56:07 <tusho> c->lisp not hard, the lisp machines did it
00:56:14 <tusho> lisp->bf a bit hard, yeah, but not infeasable
00:56:24 <tusho> bf->haskell trivial
00:56:26 <augur> how did the lisp machines work, do you know?
00:56:34 <tusho> the cpu executed lisp code.
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00:56:49 <augur> can you explain the large scale structure of the cpu?
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00:56:58 <tusho> augur: it ran lisp
00:57:11 <augur> ok, now a slightly smaller scale structure? :P
00:59:03 <augur> i get how c can run on a modern cpu, because modern cpus are imperative and such
00:59:23 <augur> and c is hardly an abstraction from machine code, in the grand scheme of things
00:59:34 <augur> but lisp is so far from modern cpus that i cant imagine how the cpu looked
01:06:21 <augur> anyone know what a thunk is?
01:10:06 <oerjan> in lisp, a function with no arguments
01:11:47 <tusho> augur: well, it isn't like c running on a cpu
01:11:52 <tusho> it's like a cpu that at its most native level, runs c
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07:31:58 <lament> write a good music notation program for os x and release it as open source.
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08:47:13 <lament> then, first, learn music notation
08:47:24 <lament> learn to play some instrument so you can apply that knowledge
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10:35:29 <AnMaster> <lament> write a good music notation program for os x and release it as open source.
10:35:39 <AnMaster> doesn't rosegarden work on OS X?
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13:41:59 <Slereah5> Well, seems like ill urine isn't at the local bookstores.
13:43:08 <oklopol> US UROPHILES HAVE A RIGHT TO PROGRAM TOO
13:43:11 <oklopol> WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE
13:46:43 <oklopol> Scheme is my mother tongue!
13:46:55 <oklopol> KINDA LIKE I PEED IN YOUR MOTHER'S MOUTH LAST NIGHT
13:48:03 <Slereah5> Is that the terrible conlang that nobody speaks?
13:48:29 <Asztal> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e5/Ithkuil_sentence.ogg < that scares me
13:49:08 <oklopol> there's nothing terrible about it, except for the great amount of phonemes.
13:49:34 <oklopol> i'm contemplating hiring a teacher or smth
13:49:35 <Slereah5> And the fact that everyone of them means something
13:49:51 <Asztal> I read about the formal script for Ilaksh yesterday, that was just weird
13:49:52 <oklopol> ithkuil root words are of the form C1..C2
13:50:29 <oklopol> you can have a, e or i in between, for 3 modifications of the concept
13:50:42 <oklopol> MILLIONS OF WAYS TO MODIFY IT!
13:50:52 <Slereah5> What happens if you have a cold?
13:50:58 <Slereah5> Are you unable to communicate?
13:51:30 <Slereah5> Yeah, since no one talk that language
13:52:36 <oklopol> it really doesn't seem that hard.
13:52:48 <oklopol> the problem is the lexicon, as with all languages.
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15:35:12 <pikhq> Hot shit on a stick, Batman!
15:35:16 <pikhq> Reprap replicates!
15:44:21 <pikhq> http://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocked_-_Printcrime.html, BTW, is a damned good story.
15:45:37 <Slereah> You know what else is a damn good story?
15:49:29 <Slereah> http://www.amazon.fr/Watership-Down-Richard-Adams/dp/038039586X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212763757&sr=8-2
15:50:17 <pikhq> Still, come on. . .
15:52:57 <oklopol> pikhq: true, that was pretty great
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16:06:48 <oklopol> ithkuil does relative clauses just like lalna!
16:07:02 <oklopol> except my system is much more complex.
16:08:17 <oklopol> ithkuil does everything with -fixes and infliction, which i think is the reason for it seeming so complicated
16:09:35 <Asztal> well, sort of. I'm learning hungarian - not quite *so* suffix-obsessed, but has a lot
16:09:39 <oklopol> and that is because you're from ...x?
16:09:55 <oklopol> they say hungarian is similar to finnish
16:10:12 <oklopol> hal (hung.) = kala (finn.) is all i know though.
16:10:49 <Asztal> they are related, but I think they probably split quite a while ago
16:11:17 <Asztal> since they're apparently unintelligible to each other
16:11:19 <oklopol> i dunno, i don't really believe in history
16:11:45 <oklopol> there aren't really any noticable similarities
16:11:57 <Asztal> whereas I can read Dutch and recognise a lot of it :)
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16:12:47 <Asztal> I remembeer szív is shared too
16:12:50 <oklopol> i have no idea, there was a hungarian here... nick was something starting with n*
16:13:21 <oklopol> Deewiant: know hungarian or googled?
16:13:30 * ais523 knows a few words of Hungarian
16:13:51 <Deewiant> I lived in hungary when I was 3-4 years old but that's not very helpful I'm afraid :-P
16:14:08 <ais523> I went there for a conference for a week once
16:14:16 <ais523> but everyone spoke in English
16:14:23 <Deewiant> evidently it also always stresses the first syllable
16:14:47 <Deewiant> here's a short table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages#Common_vocabulary
16:14:56 <Deewiant> and here's some more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_sound_correspondences_between_Hungarian_and_other_Uralic_languages
16:15:45 <Asztal> I like english's method... the stress patterns can be weird and even native speakers get it wrong :)
16:18:13 <pikhq> The stress patterns are quite variable in English, for the sake of emphasis. Whee.
16:18:51 <oklopol> stress patterns *within words* aren't, pikhq
16:19:11 <pikhq> But it's been done.
16:19:24 <Asztal> like lexicographical: it seems the stress pattern is made so that the stressed syllables are evenly spaced
16:19:36 <ais523> IPA uses different sorts of apostrophes to mark stresses
16:19:44 <Asztal> that must be how we guess the stress pattern by intuition
16:19:59 <oklopol> imo ithkuil went over the line a bit by making stress actually change the meaning of a word
16:20:17 <oklopol> (otherwise it's great sofar)
16:20:34 <Asztal> it can do in english too, though it's rare (reCORD, REcord)
16:22:23 <ais523> well, that's a different length of e
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16:50:01 <tusho> I don't dare to boot up X, yet.
16:50:12 <tusho> I trust you haven't messed up the eso-std server yet? :-P
16:50:19 <tusho> I'm planning on getting apache working today
16:50:44 <ais523> no, I haven't screwed up the server
16:50:54 <ais523> I'd like to get the darcs stuff back up soon, though
16:51:04 <tusho> ais523: yes, i'll do that ASAP after I get apache working
16:51:34 <tusho> ais523: i'll also put darcsweb on there, because it's nice to be able to browse the code online & view diffs between revisions etc
16:52:34 <tusho> i'll start x now, but a bit of snake(1) before that to make sure it won't die
16:54:02 <tusho> ais523: gnome's starting...
16:54:11 <tusho> what part do you think it'll crash at?
16:54:19 <tusho> also, should I open epiphany, xchat or other first?
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16:54:38 <ais523> you have a better idea of your computer's idiosyncracies than I do
16:54:51 <tusho> ais523: you'd think so...
16:55:11 <tusho> it defies all laws of logic, I think it might be one of thems 4-dimensional aliens
16:55:28 <tusho> Well, I chose epiphany.
16:55:44 <tusho> ais523: intersetingly, even if the gui is doing stuff it never crashes in console mode
16:55:48 <tusho> i really do think it's the gfx card like you said
16:56:54 <tusho> ais523: WOW! The back button didn't crash it.
16:56:57 <tusho> It must like me today
16:58:53 <tusho> ais523: xchat time
16:59:07 <tusho> connect lil' guy! connect!
16:59:11 <tusho> i wanna see you from irssi
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16:59:29 <tusho> ais523: he can't talk right now, he's busy in console mode
16:59:52 <tusho_> I JUST RESIZED MY XCHAT WINDOW :D
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17:10:11 <tusho_> ais523: no, the computer crashed
17:10:18 <tusho_> even though it was working for 10 minutes
17:10:25 <ais523> well, that was a fast restart, then
17:20:53 <Hiato> Alrighty, I conceded, this python has beaten me. Calling reinforcements...
17:21:58 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/wj80Yx47.html
17:22:09 <Hiato> that's where it sits currently
17:22:59 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/SCYYhi81.html
17:23:14 <Hiato> that's what it should be doing (rough description)
17:23:40 <tusho_> Hiato: 4 space indentations plz
17:25:44 <tusho_> Hiato: everyne who uses python uses 4-space indentation, it's hard to read python with other indentations
17:26:39 <ais523> 'hard to read python with other indentations'?
17:26:58 <ais523> changing indentation amount doesn't make langs harder to read if the screen's wide enough to fit the indentation on
17:27:01 <tusho_> 4-space indentation is universal
17:27:06 <Hiato> right, I'll learn of this so called "4 space indentation" hopefully, but, how do I fix what's broken :P
17:27:15 <tusho_> Hiato: i'd tell you if I could read it
17:27:27 <tusho_> ais523: With a whitespace-sensitive language like p ython it really does make things hard
17:27:30 <ais523> that 8-space looks perfectly readable to me
17:27:39 <Deewiant> indentation makes something hard to read only if it's 1 space or over 10 spaces
17:27:51 <Hiato> that was automatic by IDLE by the way :P
17:27:59 <tusho_> Hiato: did you save it as .py?
17:28:04 <tusho_> if not it won't highlight or indent properly
17:28:09 <tusho_> Hiato: _before_ typing it?
17:28:12 <ais523> Deewiant: almost agreed, my version of that statement is "indentation makes something hard to read only if it's 1 space in a language not designed for it, or so wide the lines wrap"
17:28:33 <Deewiant> ais523: yeah, that's more accurate
17:28:51 <ais523> BF and Lisp are both readable at 1-space indentation
17:29:01 <Hiato> well, tusho_ the problem is more or less with this guy:
17:29:02 <Hiato> if ord(n[k]) in range(ord('a'),ord('z')):
17:29:02 <Hiato> which simply doesn't work...
17:29:07 <Hiato> or doesn't seem to for that matter
17:29:10 <Deewiant> I don't call anything in BF 'indentation' ;-)
17:29:24 <ais523> Deewiant: I have a BF mode for Emacs which does auto-indentation
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17:33:05 <Hiato> if ord(n[k]) in xrange(ord('a'),ord('z'),1):
17:33:16 <Hiato> maybe something there is still redundant, but whatever
17:34:34 <Hiato> now something is wrong with the logic...
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17:38:42 <Hiato> I cannot understand this at all, I have clearly written if blah blah: t-= 1, but everytime it gets there and blah is true, it increases t. What is going on?
17:39:35 <ais523> Hiato: are you sure that that's the bit of code that's running?
17:39:43 * Hiato wonders if everyone decided to leave the noob to he's own devices
17:39:50 <ais523> try putting a print statement there to make sure that it's that bit that's running but not a different bit
17:39:52 <Hiato> so says the debugger
17:40:03 <Hiato> got that set up :P
17:40:33 <ais523> is the code immediately after adding 2 to t and canceling out the effect?
17:40:39 * Hiato will now stare at the code until it behaves and writes itself
17:41:21 <Hiato> Nope, here it is in context
17:41:22 <Hiato> if ord(n[k]) in xrange(ord('a'),ord('z'),1): t -= 1
17:41:47 <ais523> yes, look at the next 3 lines
17:41:58 <ais523> they certainly look like they could have the effect of adding 2 to t
17:42:04 <ais523> under certain circumstances
17:42:13 <Hiato> nada, sorry ais523. Thanks though :)
17:42:32 <Hiato> I watch it in the debugger, and as it gets past that if, it adds 1...
17:42:54 <ais523> what happens if you change t-=1 to t+=1?
17:42:56 <Hiato> it's like it took it upon itself to execute an else, deemed to be the opposite of the true clause...
17:43:13 <ais523> <Hiato> it's like it took it upon itself to execute an else, deemed to be the opposite of the true clause...
17:43:18 <ais523> now that's a great idea for an esolang
17:43:48 <Hiato> heh, lol... yeah, you might actually have something there :P
17:44:05 <Hiato> (PS: t +=1 does exactly what it's supposed to... unlike t -= 1
17:44:56 <Hiato> if ord(n[k]) in xrange(ord('a'),ord('z'),1): t = t - 1
17:44:57 <Hiato> makes it 2 when t=1????
17:45:13 <ais523> are you sure you're looking at the right symbol?
17:45:30 <Hiato> there's not a single t += anything in that entire section
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18:05:36 <Hiato> back, and... oh, wait... nevermind, it didn't write itself...
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19:37:39 <oklopol> if ord(n[k]) in range(ord('a'),ord('z')): <<< still doesn't include 'z'
19:38:07 <Hiato> oklopol, that's not really the problem though
19:38:15 <Hiato> the fact that it increases z is
19:38:48 <oklopol> also, ...ord('z'),1) is equal to just ...ord('z'))
19:39:37 <oklopol> well yes i know it's not the problem
19:39:50 <oklopol> but i can't fix your problem because i'm not sure how the thingie works
19:40:05 <oklopol> (well i guess i could, but i'm not gonna read it unless i know what it should do)
19:40:19 <Hiato> would you like me to explain?
19:41:19 <Hiato> http://www.rafb.net/p/SCYYhi81.html
19:41:23 <oklopol> a2z = range(ord('a'),ord('z')+1)
19:41:23 <Hiato> there's the vague one
19:41:41 <Hiato> well, that's what it should do
19:43:10 <Hiato> well, essentially there are 26 variables, each represented by a lower case alphabet letter. There is an IP with a possible range of 1..4 (inclusive) for the four commands: Inc, Dec, Begin if >0 loop, End if >0 loop. Essentially, the syntax consists of only varibales
19:44:01 <oklopol> ip grows by one every step
19:44:12 <Hiato> you type two characters for each instruction. The first is the origin data, the second the storage place. Say, the IP is on 1 (Inc) and I go "ab" it effectively means that b = a +1
19:44:17 <Hiato> yeah, that's right
19:44:33 <oklopol> okay, i get it completely now
19:44:33 <Hiato> any non-variable merely advances the ip
19:45:44 <Hiato> where it should be terminating the loop skipping back through the code searching for the last valid ip=3 (begin if>0 loop) it just continues forever
19:46:06 <oklopol> random thing: you always do k+=2 after each oper, so you could just have that once in the code
19:46:22 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/oWtcmH82.html
19:46:30 <Hiato> heh, well spotted :)
19:46:42 <oklopol> actually i'm not sure what these iteration constructs should do :)
19:46:48 <Hiato> but, nonetheless, the skipping back part no worky
19:46:49 <oklopol> can you explain them once more?
19:47:55 <Hiato> right, well essentially they operate much like a bf [ and ] would. If the ip is 3 (begin) and the code is valid, it continues onwards, storing a 1 in the second var
19:48:02 <oklopol> while(var>0) according to the impl
19:48:07 <Hiato> if it's 0, then it skips to end, if it's no-op, it ignores
19:48:53 <Hiato> when it finds a valid ip=4(end>0) it checks if the var specified>0 if so, searches back for matching ip=3 and stores a one in second var
19:49:07 <Hiato> rather, it should be able to
19:49:25 <Hiato> *otherwise just continues
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19:49:53 <oklopol> basically, there's a [ if in a place of code the ip is 3 and there's a variable at that specific place
19:50:21 <oklopol> and the ip's traversal through 1..4 happens at parsing stage
19:50:36 <Hiato> and it dumps 1/0 (T/f) appropriately
19:50:40 <oklopol> meaning it increments and decrements normally when you do the jumping that is looping
19:50:58 <oklopol> okay, i think i can fix it now
19:51:15 <Hiato> essentially, if you're looping back, there's no need to worry, because the ip will have to be 3 when you find it next
19:51:31 <Hiato> and same applies for jumping forwards (except ip=4)
19:52:00 <Hiato> (The sample code should increase a twice, then decrease through looping to 0 )
19:54:31 <Hiato> *2 for every valid instructions :)
19:54:42 <oklopol> you set it, but calculate again for actual use
19:55:04 <Hiato> I'm not exactly a seasoned programmer :)
19:55:20 <oklopol> if you're at ip=2, and there's a var
19:55:23 <oklopol> meaning you should reduce t by 1
19:55:27 <oklopol> you first do if ord(n[k]) in range(ord('a'),ord('z')): t -= 1
19:55:52 <oklopol> i think i found the problem, but i'm explaining a different problem you don't have.
19:55:54 <Hiato> one of those t -=1 should be a plus
19:56:26 <Hiato> (PS: are is for debugging :) )
19:56:33 <oklopol> 41-43 should be removed completely, i think
19:56:45 <oklopol> excet you need to change k changes ofc
19:56:55 <Hiato> but then, surely, if you pass a nested begin, you'll stop looping
19:58:17 <oklopol> waitwait... it's a while since i did this kind of imperative quibbling
19:58:28 <Hiato> We are at the last end, and we loop back, find the second b and continue
19:58:32 <oklopol> but this *should* be a piece of cake
19:58:52 <oklopol> no, because the first E increased T
19:59:02 <Hiato> I know, it's actually cruel how this eludes my best efforts
19:59:19 <Hiato> yeah, so we need the dec t part for the second b then, surely
19:59:23 <oklopol> btw, remember also to set p after your whiles
19:59:34 <oklopol> that may be your problem, even
19:59:43 <Hiato> well, I'm not that far
20:00:00 <Hiato> the problem occurs earlier in stopping at the right point
20:00:05 <oklopol> you need and inc and a dec for t for both the [ and the ] loop.
20:00:24 <oklopol> your problem here is really that you're not abstracting enough, but i guess you know that
20:00:31 <Hiato> but, that still isn't the problem
20:00:34 <oklopol> (and naturally it's cooler to do this way)
20:01:30 <oklopol> anyway, did you remove 41-43?
20:01:40 <oklopol> 39 does the decrement of t
20:01:50 <oklopol> you're doing the next round there, already
20:01:57 <Hiato> something needs to count the Begins too
20:02:05 <Hiato> 39 should increase
20:02:25 <Hiato> no, something still needs to increase somewhere
20:02:35 <Hiato> and it should be 39
20:02:39 <Hiato> to count the nested ones
20:02:59 <Hiato> but, that doesn't effect the sample prog
20:03:01 <oklopol> but you should only have one decrement in the if clause
20:03:22 <oklopol> then fix the amounts of k's change
20:03:27 <Hiato> 44-46 can go I think
20:03:43 <Hiato> I'm not sure what it's doing
20:05:14 <Hiato> 6 is the wrong interval
20:05:22 <Hiato> optionally, the + and - should swap
20:05:43 <Hiato> yeah, it should be
20:06:30 <Hiato> heh, from the sample prog
20:06:40 <Hiato> it appears swapping the + and - did the trick
20:06:53 <Hiato> but, now we're back to a t increase when the code says -
20:07:18 <oklopol> might help to paste the new one
20:07:21 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/3dzInC94.html
20:07:45 <Hiato> but 40 is still increasing t for some inexplicable reason
20:07:59 <Hiato> do you have IDLE on hand? Or Eclipse or something
20:08:37 <oklopol> p = 1 on line 47, shouldn't that be 3?
20:09:10 <oklopol> i mean, you're jumping into a code cell right after a [-cells, which is a 2-cell
20:09:14 <Hiato> nope, because we went back to begin, which is instruction 2 (counting from 0 in the impl)
20:09:24 <Hiato> and p gets increased after every itwer
20:09:25 <oklopol> yes, and then one after that
20:09:47 <oklopol> yes, so it gets to 2, and then increases by one
20:10:01 -!- cherez has left (?).
20:10:10 <Hiato> p=1 then p += 1 makes it p = 2
20:10:20 <Hiato> which is right for the looped back begin
20:10:39 <Hiato> I see what you're saying
20:10:59 <Hiato> what I'm doing is checking at the ] if >0 and then at the [ if >0
20:11:10 <oklopol> similarly, on line 26, p = 3 should be p=0 afaik
20:11:22 <Hiato> but, you need to, because they don't necessarily imply the same variable
20:11:34 <oklopol> or 3 if you don't increase k.
20:11:50 <Hiato> well, either way - it's still not the problem :P
20:12:00 <Hiato> because 40 is still messing up
20:13:03 <Hiato> if ord(n[k]) in xrange(ord('a'),ord('z')+1): t -= 1
20:13:03 <Hiato> with t = 1, n[k]='a' produces t = 2!?!?!?!
20:14:14 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure that backjump works now except for p=1
20:14:23 <oklopol> which still should be 3 :|
20:14:26 <Hiato> thing is it doesn't :P
20:14:48 <oklopol> where abcd are some random shit
20:14:50 <Hiato> yeah, I will shoot myself if the problem lies there
20:15:23 <oklopol> it then goes to d, and checks if that's a var
20:15:35 <oklopol> my "d" means an empty cell called "d"
20:15:44 <oklopol> so it doesn't do anything to t
20:15:58 <oklopol> it then reduces k by 6 and gets to "a"
20:16:05 <oklopol> which is empty, so it doesn't increase t
20:16:58 <Hiato> ps: I think you're right about the p = 1 thing ;)
20:17:10 <oklopol> well that's what i thought
20:17:18 <Hiato> I need one more test though :)
20:17:19 <oklopol> @ a, ip should always be 3
20:17:32 <oklopol> because @ [, ip is necessarily 2
20:18:02 <oklopol> but it should be correct otherwise, the problem lies elsewhere provided you've corrected p=1
20:20:26 <Hiato> (PS: removing k += 2 so p = 2 so we can test [ 's variables)
20:21:08 <Hiato> nope, still needs to be 3
20:21:39 <Hiato> that's what it should do
20:21:40 <oklopol> a-loop is loop-back conditional on a
20:22:44 <oklopol> i can whip you up an interp that parses that into something more intelligible, if you wanna
20:23:03 <Hiato> a quick met lang :)
20:28:29 <oklopol> but i can show you my first parsing phase in a sec
20:28:43 <Hiato> and cool, if you can
20:29:05 <olsner> "hey honey, you wanna inspect my parsing phases?"
20:29:30 <Hiato> "You know the way to man's heart sweety"
20:30:05 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p366524266.txt
20:30:36 <Hiato> wow, impressive and compact :)
20:31:07 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/R4CsXt99.html
20:31:16 <Hiato> here we are, a working model too I believe
20:33:54 <Hiato> waiting on your prog to test nesting oklopol :P
20:35:55 <Hiato> yeah, the jumps work forwards and backwards :)
20:37:21 <Hiato> better version: http://rafb.net/p/P26Uvz17.html
20:37:29 <Hiato> so am I - I hope :)
20:37:35 <oklopol> sorry, for some raeson your k+=2 made me add two to my iterator too
20:37:48 <Hiato> (PS: I was right about both 3 and 1)
20:37:54 <Hiato> heh, no worries :)
20:42:14 <oklopol> and you have an unconditional p+=1 in the end
20:42:38 <Hiato> essentially, in [abcd] where a,b,c,d are blanks, we hit the [. Here the ip = 2 and we check the vars, then we move through a,b,c,d and at the ] the ip = 3. Then, if we jump back, and it gets increase by one, it has to be 1 to be at 2 at the [
20:42:41 <oklopol> (got it, i guess i was technically wrong)
20:42:46 <Hiato> I'll tell you why though, not to make me right
20:43:37 <Hiato> it's because you can make an if statement by going BEGIN [a>0] {blah} [END B>0] where b = 0 and a is unknown
20:43:39 <oklopol> yeppity got it, i didn't know about line 47 (never read that long tbh :P), and you've removed k+=2, for obvious reasons
20:43:44 <Hiato> this way you won't loop
20:45:12 <Hiato> righty o, so is the meta-lang ready?
20:45:37 <oklopol> well it parses the thingie already, i'll quickly whip up an interp too
20:45:57 <Hiato> wanna check nested loops
20:46:02 <oklopol> i need the you to re-explain the semantics of [] again
20:46:03 <Hiato> or is it a one-way parsers?
20:46:16 <oklopol> the exact semantics regarding the two vars
20:46:36 <oklopol> [ skip loop if a = 0, and do X to b
20:46:53 <Hiato> essentially, at ip=2, the interp is given two variables (arbitrarily a & b). If a>0 then loop and make b=1, if a<=0 then skip and make b=0
20:50:27 <Hiato> implemented your k += 2 global idea: http://rafb.net/p/Lunwl621.html
20:50:33 <Hiato> now to make a parser :)
20:51:05 <oklopol> it's set to 0 if it loops back
20:51:26 <Hiato> because 1st var>0 == true
20:52:13 <oklopol> hmm, this actually isn't all that trivial, because python doesn't have a goto
20:52:27 <tusho_> oklopol: you don't need it
20:52:36 <tusho_> e.g. add another function
20:52:41 <tusho_> and 'return' in the right place
20:52:44 <Hiato> no, you don't proven by my interpreter:P
20:52:48 <Hiato> which works now :)
20:53:26 <oklopol> you're not using python's constructs, but your own traversal through raw code
20:54:01 <tusho_> you'd like perl, I think
20:54:08 <tusho_> it lets you write code like okopython, but crazier
20:54:15 <tusho_> and it does actually have goto :P
20:54:30 <tusho_> ais523: okopython is oklopol's unique style of python
20:54:34 <ais523> tusho_: goto &proc, surely?
20:54:41 <ais523> goto a typeglob makes no sense at all
20:54:52 <ais523> in fact, I can't even imagine a lang in which that would begin to make sense
20:54:53 <tusho_> anyway, okopython somehow implements every programming language in a tiny amount of space
20:54:59 <ais523> maybe I'll have to create one...
20:55:09 <ais523> but I have no idea how that would work
20:55:11 <tusho_> for example, if oklopol wrote a C compiler in okopython
20:55:15 <tusho_> it'd be 70 lines, in total
20:55:25 <tusho_> it would rm -rf / if you fed it a wrong program, so don't do that.
20:55:47 <ais523> tusho_: incidentally, if you try that when you aren't root, does it delete everything you can delete or does it just do nothing?
20:55:58 <tusho_> ais523: why not try it?
20:56:11 <ais523> tusho_: no, that's the sort of command that shouldn't be tried
20:56:18 <tusho_> ais523: i'll try it on rutian
20:56:24 <tusho_> rm: cannot remove root directory `/'
20:56:29 <tusho_> I knew that would happen, obviously.
20:56:32 <tusho_> It's hardcoded into rm.
20:56:46 <ais523> you can override it with --no-preserve-root
20:56:58 <tusho_> ais523: 'sudo nobody rm -rf --no-preserve-root /'
20:57:01 <ais523> not sure why you'd want to, though
20:57:04 <tusho_> that'll test with no worries, right?
20:57:13 <ais523> tusho_: you forgot an arg to sudo
20:57:24 <ais523> and I'm sure nobody owns /something/
20:57:36 <tusho_> ais523: hokay, it juts goes through every file and complains about perms
20:57:43 <tusho_> so I assume yeah, everything you can
20:58:13 <ais523> tusho_: if you own a file but not the dir it's in, can you delete it?
20:58:35 <tusho_> you'd have to modify the dir structure
20:58:35 <ais523> if you don't have write access to the dir
20:58:37 <oklopol> it seems i actually failed @ making this without thinking, so... http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p651243214.txt, amirite?=
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20:59:23 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p513651233.txt
20:59:43 <oklopol> so basically, [ab body cd], a and b are the begin-vars, c and d the end-vars
20:59:52 <oklopol> are these the exact semantics with goto?
21:01:41 <Hiato> let me think quick
21:02:01 <Hiato> by begin vars you mean a is the condition and b is the dump?
21:03:23 <Hiato> that text looks good
21:03:53 <Hiato> yeah, that's spot on :)
21:04:12 <Hiato> how does one perform the abs ( | | ) function in python?
21:04:42 <ais523> Hiato: abs(thenumbertotakeabsof)
21:04:54 <oklopol> what should b be after that code, Hiato?
21:05:01 <oklopol> it's 1 in mine after running the code
21:05:02 <Hiato> I was thinking along the lines of import * from c_types or soemthing
21:05:24 <ais523> Hiato: now, if you'd asked "how does one perform the abs ( | | ) function in INTERCAL", I'd have been able to refer you to the original docs
21:05:27 <Hiato> because you broke the loops
21:05:30 <ais523> where that was used as an example
21:07:25 <oklopol> it's not actually much shorter
21:07:31 <oklopol> just *conceptually* more beautiful.
21:07:41 <oklopol> unfortunately pretty ugly in practise.
21:07:41 <Hiato> nicely done nonetheless :)
21:08:02 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p561224165.txt
21:08:35 <oklopol> a lot of details i didn't feel like abstracting away / explaining
21:08:35 <Hiato> wow, impressive :)
21:08:45 <oklopol> but who cares, i'll fix if something doesn't work
21:09:00 <Hiato> lol, just finishing off the metalang
21:09:05 <Hiato> with human readable syntax
21:09:12 <Hiato> then we can start to break things :)
21:09:28 <Hiato> from it to this lang
21:09:36 <Hiato> which I now deem: "RFL"
21:09:42 <Hiato> repeating four language
21:12:31 <oklopol> finished are you are you now are you?
21:12:49 <Hiato> well, there's some weird error I don't really get
21:12:52 <Hiato> but yeah, I should be
21:13:05 <Hiato> UnboundLocalError: local variable 'result' referenced before assignment
21:13:11 <oklopol> i thought you were just defining a syntax
21:13:31 <Hiato> meh, what the heck
21:13:34 <Hiato> here's the code thus far
21:14:09 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/sK6LBK90.html
21:14:38 <Hiato> it takes an easier to read input and yields output
21:16:06 <Hiato> the last res += should be an r+=
21:16:10 <Hiato> but, it still moans
21:16:26 <Hiato> Traceback (most recent call last):
21:16:26 <Hiato> File "<pyshell#11>", line 1, in <module>
21:16:26 <Hiato> File "C:/Documents and Settings/Administrator/My Documents/Python Projects/LangParser.py", line 23, in Thingy
21:16:26 <Hiato> r = r + n[k+1] + n[k+2]
21:16:27 <Hiato> UnboundLocalError: local variable 'res' referenced before assignment
21:16:27 <oklopol> i just meant that error was a trivial naming error
21:17:16 <Hiato> but there is a bug type thing
21:17:55 <augur> augur, not augie. :P
21:17:59 <augur> i knew a guy named augie.
21:18:48 <oklopol> augur: i was trying to be informal an breezy
21:19:03 <augur> still, just augur. :P
21:21:29 <oklopol> anyway, Hiato: the way i'd do that is keep track of where in code i am atm
21:22:02 <oklopol> then, when you need to put in, say -
21:22:38 <Hiato> a different way completely, but your way sounds good too :)
21:23:01 <oklopol> anyway, this way you could calculate the relative offset instead of keeping track of "last put thingie"
21:23:01 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/wrGdXm27.html
21:24:24 <Hiato> Go(Thingy()) works like a charm! :)
21:25:06 <Hiato> ok, gonna try fibonnacci quick :)
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21:27:18 <ihope> 11, 12, 122, 12211, 1221121, 1221121221, 122112122122112, 12211212212211211221211
21:28:37 <tusho_> ihope: reverse look and say?
21:29:39 <ihope> For the purposes of look and say?
21:29:51 <Hiato> +ll+ll+ll+ll+ll+ll+aa[lx+ac-cc+bd-dd[bx-bb+cc]bx+ca-aa[dx-cc-dd]dx+cb-bb]lx
21:30:50 <Hiato> im using a = a + b; b = a - b
21:31:18 <ihope> 12211 means one of the first thing, two of the second thing, two of the first thing, one of the second thing, one of the first thing.
21:31:36 <ihope> In this case, the first thing and the second thing are 1 and 2.
21:32:48 <ihope> expand1 ('1':xs) = '1' : expand2 xs; expand1 ('2':xs) = '1' : '1' : expand2 xs; expand1 [] = []; expand2 is the same thing except with 1 and 2 swapped on the RHS.
21:33:05 <oklopol> Hiato: dunno, making my own too
21:33:21 <Hiato> lets see what happens :)
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21:36:05 <Hiato> oklopol, please link to your tokenizer :)
21:37:42 <oklopol> wait, my connection is extremely slow
21:37:55 <Hiato> think I found my problem though :)
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21:38:34 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p452542222.txt
21:42:17 <Hiato> but it happens with repeating -
21:42:22 <Hiato> checking it out now though
21:42:37 <Hiato> for both our benefits:P
21:42:49 <oklopol> btw. make it ignore whitespace
21:47:21 <Hiato> now for the whitespace....
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21:48:55 <Hiato> how do you define a set?
21:49:07 <Hiato> as in if bleh is in ['a'..'z']
21:49:58 <Hiato> heh, it was an example :P
21:50:42 <oklopol> Hiato: ready soon??? YOU'RE IN A HURRY!
21:50:52 <Hiato> set doesn't work like you said
21:51:00 <Hiato> that's the bane of my existence right now
21:51:10 <Hiato> but the stupid whitespace....
21:51:16 <Hiato> while n[k] not in set('+','-','[',']'): k+= 1
21:51:18 <oklopol> did i say something about set's behavior?
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21:52:33 <Hiato> while n[k] not in set(['+','-','[',']']): k+= 1
21:52:57 <Hiato> it seems to loop forever...
21:53:56 <oklopol> you might have whitespace in the end or smth
21:55:06 <Hiato> while (n[k] not in set(['+','-','[',']'])) and (k<len(n)-1): k+= 1
21:55:31 <Hiato> either way it doesn't work
21:56:31 <oklopol> hit your python with a stick
21:56:41 <Hiato> I'll give you the code
21:56:42 <oklopol> you might have it in the wrong place or something similar
21:56:45 <Hiato> that otherwise works
21:57:12 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/1AiAKp78.html
21:59:03 <oklopol> btw. n=filter(lambda a:not a.isspace(),n)
21:59:13 <Hiato> oh, and oklopol, you're interpreter dies on ll ll ll ll ll ll aa lx accc bdddbx ccbb bxcaaadx cc dd dxcbbb lx
21:59:21 <Hiato> correction "ll ll ll ll ll ll aa lx accc bdddbx ccbb bxcaaadx cc dd dxcbbb lx"
21:59:41 <oklopol> i see multiple adjacent spaces as one
21:59:42 <Hiato> well, I'll use that, thanks :)
21:59:50 <tusho_> Hiato: it's good that you're getting away from delphi - we can actually try your stuff :P
22:00:05 <Hiato> heh, thanks tusho_ if that's a compliment
22:00:26 <tusho_> replace your spaces with _
22:00:31 <oklopol> Hiato: i see a__b as a_b, where _ = space
22:00:35 <tusho_> your interp dies on ll_____________ll_________ll
22:01:10 <Hiato> aha, well, there's your problem
22:01:20 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
22:01:25 <tusho_> Hiato: ... just repeat what you said
22:01:27 <tusho_> <Hiato> correction "ll ll ll ll ll ll aa lx accc bdddbx ccbb bxcaaadx cc dd dxcbbb lx"
22:01:29 <Hiato> oklopol, whitespace here is as much a part of the programme as the varibales
22:01:35 <tusho_> it's just his irc client
22:01:45 <oklopol> Hiato: asdfkjasodjfasiodjf
22:01:48 <oklopol> tusho_ can speak on my behalf.
22:02:31 <tusho_> oklopol: i've always tried to understand what people say and restate when I see confusion
22:02:37 <tusho_> most people respond with 'are you SURE that's what he meant??!!!'
22:02:43 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/GZBVQk93.html
22:02:45 <tusho_> yes I'm sure damnit, I can actually comprehend english unlike you!
22:02:52 <oklopol> tusho_: me too, but after doing it a million times, i just don't feel like it :)
22:02:53 <Hiato> oklopol, if you run it, it yields the output :)
22:03:16 <Hiato> which should be the fib sequence, but isn't
22:04:25 <Hiato> Go(Thingy('+aa+aa[ax+bb-aa]ax'))
22:04:28 <Hiato> performs as expected
22:05:42 <oklopol> [34, 21, 0, 0, 21, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
22:06:18 <oklopol> +aa+bb+cc+cc+cc+cc+cc+cc+cc[cd+ea-ee[ad+bb-aa]ad+ab-aa+be-bb-cc]cd
22:06:34 <Hiato> I think my interps wrong though
22:07:11 <Hiato> my interpreter is befuged ;)
22:07:20 <Hiato> please test my input :P
22:07:26 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebooting my Internet connection").
22:08:07 <Hiato> that came with thingy
22:08:16 <oklopol> [-57, -60, -56, -62, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
22:08:18 <oklopol> [-58, -60, -56, -62, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
22:08:18 <oklopol> [-58, -60, -56, -62, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
22:08:31 <Hiato> if you have the patience...
22:08:38 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:09:24 <oklopol> the +ca after the loop -> +ac
22:09:33 <oklopol> i'll just fix as i think it should be and try
22:09:42 <Hiato> ok, cool, thanks :)
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22:12:24 <Slereah5> It better have all the solutions of life!
22:12:38 <oklopol> +ll+ll+ll+ll+ll+ll+aa[lx+ca-cc+db-dd[bx+cc-bb]bx+ac-aa[dx-cc-dd]dx+bc-bb-ll]lx
22:12:50 <oklopol> thought you were using c for looping
22:13:15 <Hiato> thanks for that :D
22:13:23 <Hiato> my interp is still messed though
22:13:47 <oklopol> well you have fun with that, i feel i've done my share for the day now :P
22:14:16 <Hiato> thank you for all your help :D
22:14:29 <Hiato> would be nowhere now, without you :)
22:15:00 <oklopol> tusho_: yes i eat now nom nom
22:15:12 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
22:15:24 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:15:25 <tusho_> oklopol: NOW MY OTHER FINGER
22:15:38 <oklopol> nom cool now to be eating nomnomnom
22:17:44 <Hiato> meh closer, but still just not quite :P
22:23:47 <Hiato> well, I now bid you adieu gentlemen. Thank you for all your assistance, it has been a most interesting evening, and I have learnt much in the ways of python. Goodnight and goodbye
22:24:51 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
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22:39:01 <Slereah5> Are there solutions to the exercizes in ill urine?
22:55:23 <Slereah5> You'll never make me think that you have a poetic soul!
22:56:56 <augur> im planting a garden
22:58:10 <oerjan> u r in a lot of trouble
22:58:51 <Slereah5> You don't just toy around with vegetables in America.
22:58:56 <oerjan> ais523: hint: what's the most likely reason for me to speak on this forum?
22:59:14 <ais523> oerjan: not entirely sure
22:59:23 <ais523> normally when someone has a maths problem and asks you for help
22:59:36 <oerjan> it begins with p, ends with n and has a u in the middle
22:59:48 <ais523> oerjan: ah, I never noticed
23:01:01 <ais523> Slereah5: that u isn't in the middle
23:01:27 <Slereah5> But the most important part is, the n isn't in the end
23:03:21 <ihope> Wonderfully pnumatic.
23:04:37 * olsner is out of fermented milk products with which to scare oerjan away
23:05:02 <oerjan> olsner: i'm sure something fishy will work just as well
23:05:20 <oerjan> oklopol: u r in - urine
23:06:12 <oklopol> i thought it was @ augur though, i guess that was largely the reason
23:06:49 * oerjan generally stays away from garden work
23:09:15 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
23:12:24 -!- kar8ng1 has left (?).
23:18:38 <tusho_> The eso-std.org forum is up.
23:18:46 <tusho_> as well as the repository viewer
23:19:55 <tusho_> Slereah5: Heh, it's actually running on kareha
23:22:00 <tusho_> Slereah5: If you can find it, YOU WIN
23:23:24 <lament> esoteric sexually transmitted diseases?
23:23:38 <tusho_> lament: you've made that joke before, I believe
23:27:36 <tusho_> Slereah5: The first post on the eso-std forum is copypasta. I bet you'll look now. :P
23:30:23 * tusho_ reloads eso-std forum tomorrow and comments: "Oh look, someone is very interested in 'DESU', it seems."
23:32:01 <tusho_> Slereah5: Jeez, it takes like 3 seconds to find it. :P
23:33:15 <tusho_> Slereah5: SOMEWHERE ON ESO-STD.ORG
23:33:19 <tusho_> EITHER A SUBDOMAIN OR A DIRECTORY
23:34:18 <tusho_> Slereah5: Or a subdomain
23:34:48 <Slereah5> But why did you pick the ugly same thing as the old eso forum?
23:35:36 <tusho_> Slereah5: Because it's anonymous forum software.
23:35:46 <tusho_> Click one of the 'Board look:' links.
23:37:26 <tusho_> Slereah5: well that was an interesting 3GET
23:37:37 <Slereah5> Well, Futaba reminds me of home.
23:39:07 * oerjan recommends against shedding teratears
23:39:27 <tusho_> because gets are all about ego anyway!
23:39:48 <tusho_> IF YOU WILL, notice that all my other posts are anonymous
23:40:47 <Slereah5> Use the power of the real Futaba!
23:40:57 <Slereah5> So that you can post the Lazy Bird logo.
23:41:21 <ihope> The power of the real he futed?
23:41:46 <tusho_> Slereah5: I can enable image posting.
23:41:51 <tusho_> But I doubt that would further eso discussions.
23:41:58 <tusho_> Also, if I used the real Futaba, that'd be in japanese.
23:42:02 <Slereah5> I also doubt that there will be actual discussion.
23:42:33 <tusho_> Slereah5: Suprisingly, anonymous text boards don't instantly imply spam unless you're trying to make them.
23:42:57 <tusho_> For one, me and ais523 will definately be using it, and I imagine other people finding the site will leave something too if neccessary.
23:43:10 <tusho_> Slereah5: I'd love to hear an idea for a lovely and productive first post :P
23:43:17 <ihope> Seems forums should be based on a transparent, anonymous reputation system.
23:43:24 <Slereah5> There's already an identical board
23:43:27 <tusho_> Using it for discussion about ESO standards, Slereah5
23:43:41 <tusho_> ESO standards and projects (e.g. pastebin and code runner etc) != esolangs.org
23:43:51 <Slereah5> It's the same group of people.
23:43:52 <tusho_> ihope: That's placing the emphasis back on the people, not the content.
23:44:22 <tusho_> Slereah5: So, uh, what, just because the membership is a subset that means we should spam the esolangs.org board with our crap? I think not.
23:44:35 <tusho_> 'The online esolang runner fails with INTERCAL on this program:' is not exactly a useful post on esolangs.org
23:45:07 <ihope> tusho_: well, it's easier to ask whether what a person has posted in the past was well-received than to ask whether a certain post was well-received in the past, no?
23:45:26 <tusho_> ihope: Well, yes, but people can be unknowledgable on one subject and knowledgable about another.
23:45:33 <tusho_> If there's incorrect information, someone will point it out.
23:45:48 <tusho_> If there's someone trolling in a very similar way, the admins and mods will be able to ban them.
23:47:17 <ihope> But then they'll be banned only from that site, and will be able to go on to spam other things.
23:47:35 <tusho_> ihope: Well there's not one unified cabal of the www.
23:47:43 <tusho_> Or at least, that's what they want you to think.
23:47:47 <tusho_> Everything is on a per-site basis, of coruse.
23:48:12 <ihope> Some way to tell that a person's behaved badly on other web sites might be nice.
23:48:32 <Slereah5> YOU ARE BANNED FROM THE INTERNET
23:48:38 <tusho_> You can just blab crap about them.
23:48:44 <tusho_> Besides, what if they behaved badly, but then improved?
23:48:47 <tusho_> Content, not people, etc.
23:49:03 <Slereah5> Also some people just troll in certain areas
23:49:09 <tusho_> (blab crap about them = you can say 'THIS PERSON TROLLED!!!' when it's not true)
23:49:15 <ihope> Well, we can ignore the sites that tend to blab crap.
23:49:17 <tusho_> (and nobody can prove you wrong, of course, since it's anonymous)
23:49:23 <tusho_> ihope: What if it's just one person?
23:49:29 <tusho_> Anyway, if they blab crap on the new site, then it's dealt with.
23:49:42 <tusho_> So you don't need to notify.
23:49:49 <ihope> If a site blabs crap only once? Either it rarely blabs crap or it rarely blabs.
23:54:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:57:36 <ihope> tusho_: I apologize for tusho_'s unusual greeting.
23:57:52 <tusho_> ihope: no, that was serious
23:58:29 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to tusho.
23:58:38 <oerjan> it's GreaseMonkey, run away!
00:02:18 <tusho> oh sheesh, he's actually _here_
00:14:29 <tusho> Slereah5: It's super effective! GreaseMonkey dies.
00:15:18 <Slereah5> This seems a little too lame to quite.
00:15:19 <tusho> GreaseMonkey: No, sorry.
00:15:27 <tusho> Slereah5: We're talking about GreaseMonkey, unfortunately.
00:16:20 <tusho> Slereah5: Something like that.
00:17:14 -!- Slereah5 has changed nick to Slereah.
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00:52:47 <ihope> What you say three times is true.
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00:55:48 <tusho> "what you say three times" is tue
00:56:06 <lament> what you say three times is grue.
00:56:28 <ihope> It was bleen before, but now it's grue.
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01:09:46 <augur> the naive haskell definition is so simple
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01:10:12 <lament> that's pretty simple :)
01:10:25 <augur> pset x:xs = (map (\y . x ++ y) (pset xs)) ++ (pset xs)
01:10:31 <augur> i realized this like 20 minutes ago
01:10:44 <augur> obviously, this only works for ordered lists ;)
01:10:54 <augur> but who needs proper sets when lists work just as well
01:11:59 <lament> pset x:xs = pset xs ++ map (x:) $ pset x
01:12:07 <lament> pset x:xs = pset xs ++ map (x:) $ pset xs
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01:12:43 <augur> i wasnt sure if : would work the way i wanted it to, nor do i know what $ does. :D
01:12:47 <lament> but there's a better way to do that
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01:13:30 <augur> the definition the haskellians showed me was something like
01:13:46 <augur> filterM (const [True,False])
01:13:58 <augur> being the definition of powersetM
01:17:34 <augur> i dont even understand that one :D
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01:27:45 <olsner> ah, that one's beautiful
01:28:41 <olsner> it uses the non-deterministic choice monad to try every assignment of true or false to the elements of the list, then for each assignment keeps the elements that got True using filter
01:29:07 -!- Slereah5 has joined.
01:29:08 <tusho> olsner: err, doesn't it just use the LIST MONAD?
01:29:13 <tusho> same thing, but ;)
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01:32:37 -!- tusho has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | TODAY'S TOPIC: eso-std.org now actually SERVES CONTENT at http://forum.eso-std.org/. Website code stuff is at http://code.eso-std.org/ if you care. Next up: pastebin, etc. Tomorrow. SHAMELESS ADVERT END!.
01:33:40 <tusho> while you people spam that lovely thing, I am now about to sleep.
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01:46:44 <olsner> this is awesome, but probably not conductive to constructive disucssion until everyone gets over that it looks like /b/ but doesn't have gore and lolis
01:47:34 <olsner> plus, the forum needs a larger selection of anonymous nick names
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01:57:55 <augur> apparently in haskell
01:57:58 <augur> theres something called a quand
01:58:08 <augur> i swear, if haskell isn't an esolang
01:58:17 <augur> then it's naming conventions are
01:58:57 <olsner> coquand is a person :P
01:59:01 * ihope throws a comonad at augur
01:59:54 <olsner> it's an in-joke in the haskell word that anything that begins with "co" is actually the dual of the word you get when you remove co-
01:59:59 <augur> catamorphisms, anamorphisms homomorphisms, heteromorphisms, bimorphisms, transmorphisms, lesbomorphisms...
02:00:05 <olsner> i.e. coffee = co-ffee, etc
02:00:29 <ihope> So is caine the biologically inactive optical isomer?
02:00:58 <olsner> (and inversely, that any everyday concept has a dual named by adding co- to it ... such as cominds, cobrains)
02:01:12 -!- Slereah5 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:01:53 <oerjan> ihope: it's not inactive, it turns you into a vampire!
02:02:22 <augur> would that mean that normal cocaine turns you into a covampire?
02:02:30 <ihope> No, covampires turn you into cocaine.
02:02:59 <ihope> But you have to snuff (or whatever the term is) them, of course, which is difficult.
02:03:16 <oerjan> no, they turn you into cocaine and then snuff you
02:03:17 <augur> would you snuff caine and cosnuff cocaine?
02:03:42 <ihope> Oh, right. If a covampire cosnuffs you, you turn into cocaine.
02:03:52 <ihope> Actually, if a covampire cosnuffs cocaine, it turns into you.
02:04:06 <augur> wouldnt it coturn?
02:04:28 <ihope> Covampire coa cointo coyou coturns coit. Are you happy now?
02:04:40 <augur> no but i am cohappy!
02:04:57 <ihope> I knew you were going to say that. :-P
02:05:27 * ihope is coslapped by augur
02:05:31 <oerjan> this discussion is some medy
02:05:41 <ihope> (Which is roughly the same as me slapping you, I'm sure.)
02:05:47 <augur> no, this discussing is CO-.. oh.
02:06:00 * olsner is counderstanding coeverything
02:06:30 <oerjan> olsner: that's because we're so good at mmunication
02:07:13 <ihope> So what does Haskell de look like?
02:07:24 * oerjan wishes he had some a to drink
02:07:42 * ihope joins #haskell.de, but finds only lambdabot
02:07:56 <augur> cohaskell od colooks colike cothis:
02:08:00 * ihope gives it a @snack and leaves
02:08:14 <augur> fac n = n * fac (n-1)
02:08:23 <augur> or if you want a sexier example, the map function is
02:08:41 <olsner> you may be looking for #haskell
02:08:44 * oerjan suspects ihope knows haskell
02:08:47 <augur> map f x:xs = (f x) : (map f xs)
02:09:01 <oerjan> must be a vague corecall
02:09:33 * oerjan points out you need parentheses around x:xs
02:09:34 -!- Def has changed nick to deformative.
02:09:38 -!- deformative has changed nick to Deformative.
02:09:41 <olsner> and in f x : map f xs, the parens are extraneous
02:10:00 <oerjan> hm maybe that's rrect for de, then
02:10:35 <olsner> no, it's correct ... but for pattern matching, the form without parens is rrect
02:10:55 <augur> i prefer to be explicit with my parens :P
02:11:22 * ihope gives the ol' ((map f) (x:xs)) = ((f x) : ((map f) xs)) argument
02:11:55 <ihope> The only prefix pun I can think of now is the opposite of gigantic being nanontic.
02:12:11 <augur> well, i dont know about parens on the left but
02:12:53 <oerjan> those were what i was worrying about
02:13:42 <ihope> And then everything from yottatic to yoctotic. And in the very middle, ntic, for something of an exactly ordinary size.
02:14:16 <oerjan> apparently (map f) (x:xs) = ((f x) : ((map f) xs)) is legal
02:14:51 <ihope> They're what you get nic sections from.
02:15:11 <oerjan> surely you mean cosections
02:15:41 <oerjan> (which btw is an existing term)
02:17:08 <ihope> Let's make an esolang called Mecofrom, then. Make everything actually have a complement.
02:17:42 <ihope> That would be the identity.
02:19:15 <olsner> hmm, so you'd have something like a co- operator (cooperator :P) that complements the meaning of any program given as an argument?
02:19:51 <ihope> Every instruction has a complement, every set of instructions has a complement.
02:20:18 <ihope> The complement of a list of instructions is its coinstructions, run... sideways!
02:21:22 <ihope> Though that would kind of actually be the instructions run i times, wouldn't it?
02:21:53 <augur> i think that co-instructions should run sideways in time.
02:22:15 <ihope> That would be fun.
02:22:15 <augur> e.g., they run in co-time
02:22:27 <olsner> mmm, a complex time programming language, that'd be awesome
02:22:35 <ihope> It means, of course, that a co-co-instruction is actually the instruction in reverse.
02:22:37 <augur> well, not complex-time
02:22:40 <augur> just two time dimensions
02:23:03 <augur> because if we have complex time
02:23:06 <augur> we also need mplex time
02:23:07 <ihope> Mm, I just want to take every mathematical concept and make it into a programming language :-)
02:23:21 <olsner> http://imagechan.com/img/5569/Unexplainable/
02:23:32 <augur> and them complex cotime and mplex cotime on top cotime
02:24:16 <olsner> hmm, maybe just keep it to time and cotime then :P
02:24:42 <augur> unless its cocoa-time in which case you get a cup of hot chocolate.
02:24:59 <augur> that should be in the spec:
02:25:34 <augur> co-cotime always evaluates to the same as time, but cocoa-time will produce a cup of hot chocolate for the programmer.
02:25:52 <ihope> Hmm, now I want a programming language based on topology.
02:26:11 <oerjan> you're all a bunch of coconuts!
02:26:53 <ihope> I leave in protest.
02:26:55 -!- ihope has left (?).
02:27:48 <augur> coconuts are just normal nuts
02:28:11 <oerjan> and a normal nut is a contradiction in terms
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02:28:58 <augur> therefore coconuts do not exist
02:29:09 <edwardk> well, they are just nuts ;)
02:29:25 <edwardk> I always thought coco puffs should just be puffs anyways ;)
02:29:30 <oerjan> edwardk: you didn't see the whole proof
02:30:03 <augur> i told #haskell about it
02:30:08 <augur> now THEYRE talking in co-everything
02:32:36 <augur> i think co should not be distributive
02:32:57 <augur> so co-X co-Y != co-(X Y)
02:33:12 <augur> thus there would be 8 cases
02:33:25 <oerjan> well it depends how you combine X and Y
02:33:48 <oerjan> co-(X op Y) = co-X co-op co-Y
02:34:40 <augur> so you distributed and do co-operators on co-operands
02:34:59 <edwardk> I'm not sure how those would cooperate
02:35:23 <oerjan> note that you can take this as the _definition_ of co-op
02:36:13 <augur> that looks a LOT like the inverse of the product of two matrices
02:36:33 <augur> (AxB)^-1 == B^-1 x A^-1
02:36:50 <augur> that == A^-1 x^-1 B^-1
02:38:04 <augur> so maybe the co-matrix of a matrix is its inverse, and the co-product of two matrices is the the product of the matrices in the opposite order?
02:38:06 <oerjan> also deMorgan's laws are very similar
02:38:23 <augur> omg are we seriously going to make Mecofrom?
02:38:45 <augur> if deMorgans laws look similar enough, maybe we could find some even more fundamental way in which they're the same
02:39:03 <augur> and then use that to define co-x
02:39:33 <augur> where x is anything
02:39:40 <oerjan> augur: note that there is another matrix candidate for the co-matrix, the conjugate transpose
02:40:23 <augur> but does it have the beautiful symmetry as (AB)^-1 has?
02:40:50 <olsner> deMorgan's is !(A*B) = !A | !B ... so, if you have co(*) = |, that's just distribution of co- over the subexpressions of an expression
02:41:31 <augur> oerjan: whats conjugate transpose?
02:41:34 <oerjan> these are all duality constructions
02:42:02 <augur> so can we find some fundamental similarity between these things?
02:42:07 <oerjan> augur: for transpose, you switch rows and columns
02:42:10 <augur> aside from just visual similarity?
02:42:26 <olsner> otoh, there are other ways to define co of boolean and (such as nand, where the truth table is simply complemented)
02:42:30 <augur> i think we've stumbled on to a branch of mathematics that his as yet unexplored!
02:42:34 <augur> perhaps even important! :o
02:42:43 <oerjan> conjugate means if there is an imaginary part, you negate it
02:43:08 <oerjan> augur: certainly not, dualities are old hat
02:43:27 <augur> we need to look into them more
02:43:44 <augur> afk going to get icecream
02:43:55 <augur> or is it... co-icecream
02:44:47 <edwardk> Hrnm, so since you have coordinates, which means you need ordinates.
02:45:02 <oerjan> ordinate is a technical term
02:46:29 <edwardk> but how i have yet to see how the this coconstruction preserves that relationship
02:46:41 <oerjan> and confusingly it's not the opposite of coordinate, but an example of it
02:47:28 <oerjan> the co- there is probably in the general sense of "together with"
02:48:07 <edwardk> yeah coz ordinate opposes abcissa as the set of coordinates in 2d =)
02:48:50 <oerjan> the categorical special use as a dual construction probably came out of generalizing a lot of co- names that fit that pattern, but not all do
02:49:01 <oerjan> cosine is another counterexample
02:50:42 <edwardk> er anyways as i was mentioning on #haskell, if you are both cartesian closed and co-(cartesian closed) (so you have coexponentials, etc), any reasonable semantics for your language will cause it to degenerate to a poset.
02:50:56 <edwardk> you wind up with too many laws to satisfy
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02:56:44 <olsner> so you need to strike som kind of balance between getting as many dualities as possible into the language while still not creating so many laws to satisfy that you can't make it TC
02:57:40 <edwardk> olsner: yeah, for instance Haskell is a closed cartesian category, but its not a co-CCC, it lacks an initial object even though it has a terminal object.
02:58:04 <edwardk> in general not every functor is costrong but every functor is strong, etc.
02:58:31 <edwardk> before you say that should be every cofunctor, functor = cofunctor ;)
03:00:45 <oerjan> hm laziness makes initial objects tricky - you always have bottom
03:00:58 <oerjan> even if you allow data Void
03:04:14 <edwardk> exactly. you need a total language to fill that crack
03:05:01 <edwardk> you need an uninhabited type so that you can have something such that coidr :: Either a Initial -> a
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04:13:58 <tusho> Rodgerthegreat: I would love to know how you equate the semantics of the eso "forum" (as you put it) with 4chan.
04:14:23 <tusho> Also, that post was made by slereah as a joke.
04:16:21 <tusho> 4chan was the first anonymous board, ever, and it proves that all anonymous boards, ever, are just like it. Riiiiight.
04:17:03 <tusho> there's also the thing that 4chan is, you know, an _imageboard_
04:17:32 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: you seem frightfully offended at being compared to 4chan
04:17:38 <tusho> it does not look similar unless you select the futaba style
04:17:52 <tusho> it's just incorrect
04:18:34 <tusho> and to offer incorrect reasoning for the audience being inferior is something I wish to correct.
04:20:01 <tusho> As for your last point, tripcodes are a simple way to offer identification on an anonymous board. Besides the SW was there and it already had them, so I see no negatives.
04:21:36 <augur> oh my god what the hell were you guys talking about!? x_x
04:22:14 <tusho> or "crap" if you prefer
04:23:40 <tusho> positive :: a -> p a
04:24:04 <tusho> happy :: p a -> (a -> p b) -> p b
04:24:23 <tusho> fulfilled :: String -> p a
04:25:09 <tusho> Perhaps since its 4:23 am.
04:25:13 <augur> your haskell function stuff killed me
04:25:30 <augur> positive == return, happy == fmap?
04:26:01 <augur> oh right right sorry
04:26:14 <augur> happy is fmap i think
04:27:16 <tusho> btw. iPhone touchpads are things I still have not gotten the hang of.
04:27:25 <tusho> I'm at an ok speed though.
04:27:55 <tusho> (it is of course what I am typing on now)
04:27:58 <augur> happy has to be fmap
04:28:06 <augur> because >>= is m (m a) -> m a
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04:29:32 <augur> fmap is (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
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04:29:46 <augur> fmap is (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
04:30:16 <augur> god, its so confusing
04:30:36 <tusho> augur- comonads are fun:
04:30:49 <augur> shut up shut up shut up :P
04:31:02 <tusho> coreturn :: c a -> a
04:31:16 <augur> omg what does that even mean X_X
04:31:39 <tusho> cobind :: a -> (c a -> c b) -> b
04:32:00 <tusho> augur- monads are hard to unwrap
04:32:15 <tusho> comonads are hard to wrap instead
04:32:54 <augur> i dont even know wtf any of this means T_T
04:33:21 <tusho> oh well. Anyone have any words before I go?
04:34:25 -!- tusho has left (?).
04:35:04 <augur> quasiconformal comonaquandad
05:14:00 <edwardk> there are tons of comonads actually =)
05:14:18 <edwardk> not that i'm particularly biased about the topic
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08:44:19 <augur> so i learned about haskell's filterM having multiple valid filtered return values today
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10:29:53 <oklopol> what would you suggest for learning perl?
10:30:29 <oklopol> hmm... i guess i should actually try using it
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14:07:19 <AnMaster> has anyone tried to use TeX as a macroprocessor for anything else than typesetting?
14:09:35 <Slereah5> For the - how will it work for moar than one variable if Scheme does not accept feeding only one variable :o
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16:13:05 <Slereah6> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Recursion&redirect=no
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17:31:41 <Slereah> Remember this? (mu (lambda (x) (f x y z)) 0)
17:32:14 <Slereah> But how will it work, since Scheme does not accept to be fed undefined variables? D:
17:32:36 <Slereah> I tried, but he wants every variable, and he wants actual objects!
17:32:39 <tusho> Slereah: Well presumably 'y' and 'z' are defined.
17:32:44 <tusho> Here is what I mean.
17:32:50 <tusho> mu_y(f(1,2,y,3,4))
17:32:57 <tusho> (mu (lambda (y) (f 1 2 y 3 4)) 0)
17:33:09 <tusho> So, you only need single-arg mu, as it is.
17:33:15 <AnMaster> <Slereah6> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Recursion&redirect=no
17:33:23 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> has anyone tried to use TeX as a macroprocessor for anything else than typesetting?
17:33:33 <tusho> it doesn't work well.
17:33:41 <AnMaster> well it would be very esoteric
17:33:49 <tusho> AnMaster: Well, yeah -- someone wrote an IRC bot in PostScript.
17:33:57 <tusho> But, you know, it's not useful or anything.
17:34:07 <tusho> AnMaster: TeX is TC, it's just not nice like PS.
17:34:13 <AnMaster> I mean using TeX as a macroprocessor in order to do something else
17:34:20 <AnMaster> after all you could use it to generate C code
17:34:23 <tusho> It can't output to stdout, can it?
17:34:31 <tusho> You could make it typeset a C program that it generates, though.
17:34:32 <Slereah> See what he says about the function
17:34:33 <tusho> That would be fun.
17:34:39 <AnMaster> tusho, because I run some interactive TeX programs
17:34:48 <tusho> AnMaster: Sounds like an abomination.
17:34:57 <tusho> An affront against all that is holy, even.
17:34:59 <AnMaster> tusho, a TeX program that asked questions and generated a natbib style file
17:35:11 <tusho> p.s. I hereby Swhack AnMaster.
17:35:14 * tusho watches him squirm
17:35:22 <AnMaster> p. s. I don't play ircnomic any more
17:35:48 <tusho> AnMaster: I was trying to irritate you because it wasn't IN ALL CAPS
17:36:01 <tusho> Also, we suffusioned a while back and started writing actual rules, and have an actual Tracker.
17:36:10 <tusho> We don't have Swhacks any more though, I think it's been dead for a few days.
17:36:19 <tusho> Well, for significantly long days.
17:36:31 <tusho> Like, days that last 3.
17:37:19 <AnMaster> http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/custom-bib/
17:37:29 <tusho> AnMaster: IS IT THERE
17:37:47 <AnMaster> tusho, the interactive LaTeX program
17:37:59 <AnMaster> 1. Run TeX (or LaTeX) on makebst.ins (--> makebst.tex)
17:37:59 <AnMaster> 2. Run TeX (or LaTeX) on makebst.tex to start customizing
17:37:59 <AnMaster> your own .bst file. Select merlin as the master file (default) when
17:37:59 <AnMaster> asked. (I have other master files for my own purposes.)
17:38:11 <tusho> AnMaster: By the way, I'm talking to you from the console.
17:38:17 <tusho> I am browsing the web in w3m. X is unstable. :P
17:38:29 <AnMaster> well I got nothing against irssi or similar
17:38:34 <AnMaster> anyway you can just use ftp...
17:38:47 <AnMaster> You can get this entire directory bundled as custom-bib.zip.
17:38:51 <AnMaster> http://www.ctan.org/get/macros/latex/contrib/custom-bib.zip
17:39:00 <AnMaster> tusho, download it and have a look if you want
17:39:23 <AnMaster> ah I think it is http://www.ctan.org/get/macros/latex/contrib/custom-bib/makebst.tex
17:39:31 <AnMaster> \def\ask#1#2{\mes{#2}\read\ttyin to #1\ifx#1\defpar\def#1{}\else
17:39:31 <AnMaster> \edef#1{\expandafter\remblk#1@@}\fi}
17:39:54 <AnMaster> \def\wr#1{\immediate\write\outfile{#1}}
17:40:15 <tusho> i think there's a good argument that tex shouldn't ahve that
17:40:27 <tusho> it's not particularly useful, that abomination should probably be a C file that hooks into TeX
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17:40:36 <AnMaster> tusho, well it is rather natural to write a program to generate a LaTeX style file, in LaTeX
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17:40:39 <tusho> people seem to have a fetish for making things be able to use stdin/out and files and all that crap
17:40:44 <tusho> no matter what the purpose of the language
17:40:57 <tusho> AnMaster: .c is pretty portable.
17:41:07 <AnMaster> while this program will work on any platform you can use the result on
17:41:20 <tusho> AnMaster: Or you could use Knuth's Pascal dialect that TeX is written in.
17:41:28 <tusho> But, to be honest, C is pretty fcking portable
17:41:29 <AnMaster> tusho, sure, but is C really that good for this? This is a job for a script
17:41:43 <tusho> AnMaster: TeX is a more horrific scripting language than C...
17:41:45 <AnMaster> but this is IMO a job for a script
17:41:52 <tusho> and a TeX program is not a script
17:41:56 <AnMaster> note that I didn't code this however
17:41:58 <tusho> Therefore, C would be the best choice given the parameters.
17:42:06 <tusho> It's either TeX or C or KnuthPascal.
17:42:09 <AnMaster> tusho, however you got to agree it is portable to every platform that can run TeX?
17:42:12 <tusho> The last one makes you insane.
17:42:20 <tusho> The first one makes other people think you're insane.
17:42:23 <tusho> The middle one is pretty sane.
17:42:24 <Slereah7> tusho : Well, it's always nice to be able to see if it works!
17:42:24 <Slereah7> And it's a nice way to check it
17:42:34 <AnMaster> tusho, but agree it is rather esoteric?
17:42:39 <tusho> AnMaster: Nowadays TeX is translated into C to be compiled
17:42:45 <AnMaster> Slereah7, this is a serious application
17:42:45 <tusho> so, C would basically work on everything TeX works
17:42:51 <tusho> apart from machines from the 70s!
17:43:00 <AnMaster> tusho, and do we care about those? YES WE DO
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17:43:08 * AnMaster has gone insane with backward compatiblity
17:43:08 <tusho> Every program should be like C-INTERCAL.
17:43:15 <AnMaster> since I started coding on crossfire
17:43:25 <AnMaster> crossfire is a MMORPG, the FIRST MMORPG
17:43:37 <tusho> AnMaster: you were horrified when you saw ais523 coding for DOS compatibility
17:43:45 <AnMaster> so LOTS and LOTS of backward compatiblity
17:43:51 <tusho> 1992 ain't that ancient
17:44:00 <AnMaster> tusho, yes well, crossfire was *nix mostly and later windows too
17:44:15 <tusho> AnMaster: hm, before I start X and give way to unpredictable system behaviour, I think I'll code a c program.
17:44:30 <tusho> Hmm...which to do...I think wc(1).
17:44:35 <tusho> Maybe a simple fortune(1).
17:44:48 <AnMaster> 1992 is old enough to result in a lot of #ifdef for odd systems no longer in use
17:44:49 <tusho> And I'll code it with vi(1), of course.
17:45:04 <AnMaster> sprintf(buffer, untrusteddata);M
17:45:24 <AnMaster> anyway that should be 1) snprintf, 2) have a format string like %s
17:45:34 <tusho> AnMaster: snprintf is not portable
17:45:37 <AnMaster> I fixed quite a few crash bugs
17:45:50 <AnMaster> tusho, C99, and we got a #ifndef HAVE_SNPRINTF
17:45:52 <tusho> however, I do believe the incantation you gave there should be a strcpy! :P
17:46:20 <tusho> AnMaster: see, making it snprintf and adding the formatting string is a very stupid kind of programming
17:46:26 <tusho> "this code has an issue, let's fix that issue"
17:46:40 <tusho> "this code has an issue, what is it trying to do? let's write what it's trying to do, properly"
17:46:49 <AnMaster> and we got our own version of that
17:48:01 <AnMaster> and iirc we got an insecure tmpfile that is 1) predictable 2) bad performance 3) got race conditions
17:48:17 <AnMaster> (as in later today, a bit busy atm)
17:48:33 <tusho> AnMaster: have you seen the ESO proto-site? :P
17:48:40 <tusho> most of yesterday was setting up apache, so not a lot happened
17:48:44 <AnMaster> tusho, hm that forum? took a quick look
17:48:55 <tusho> AnMaster: was it still filled with spam at the time?
17:49:08 <AnMaster> don't remember, just looked at the git repo
17:49:14 <tusho> i wiped all that due to the general uselessness of it all
17:49:20 <tusho> AnMaster: wait, did you look at the git repo or the forum? :P
17:49:32 <tusho> AnMaster: as in spam for our dear #esoteric
17:49:38 <tusho> spam, well, pointless posts.
17:49:48 <AnMaster> tusho, the forum code in the git repo, through the cgit web interface
17:49:56 <tusho> e.g. Slereah put some copypasta on because the Futaba style reminded him of /b/ (heh)
17:50:02 <tusho> which was alright, because it was just once
17:50:14 <tusho> but then Rodger went on complaining about the fact that it was an anonymous BBS
17:50:29 <tusho> and then someone, seeing this and deciding they might as well go the whole way, posted a topic trying to get to 1000GET
17:50:31 <AnMaster> tusho, that forum, is it just me, or does it look like a cross of moinmoin wiki software and a forum?
17:50:42 <tusho> AnMaster: it's an anonymous BBS
17:50:50 <tusho> read the header at the top, it's a brief explanation
17:50:59 <tusho> but it does look quite similar
17:51:03 <tusho> there's a Board look: line
17:51:07 <tusho> if you have JS enabled you can choose some styles
17:51:27 <AnMaster> ah I don't use a js enabled browser atm
17:51:41 <AnMaster> "Board look: Blue Moon" haha I read that as "Blue Moroon"
17:51:44 <tusho> AnMaster: they're also available as Alternate Stylesheets
17:51:49 <tusho> if your browser supports selecting them
17:52:39 <AnMaster> just on most sites javascript cause a huge slowdown
17:52:40 <Slereah7> Apparently, is either defined as using "for all x", or returning a function.
17:53:11 <AnMaster> for example the site for the local newspaper loads in 4 seconds when I block ads and scripts, 10 if I just block ads, and 25 if I don't block either
17:53:23 <AnMaster> + it makes browser slow after too
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17:54:14 <AnMaster> Slereah7, is it just me or are the forum styles Pseud0ch and VIPPER the same?
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17:54:51 <AnMaster> tusho, what was the last you saw?
17:55:28 <AnMaster> I did say some important things, so what do I need to repaste
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17:56:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> tusho, what was the last you saw?
17:56:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I did say some important things, so what do I need to repaste
17:56:47 <tusho> I'll check the logs.
17:57:37 <tusho> 09:54:14 <AnMaster> Slereah7, is it just me or are the forum styles Pseud0ch and VIPPER the same?
17:57:41 <tusho> VIPPER has bluer text
17:57:46 <tusho> and some other colours are subtly different
17:58:08 <AnMaster> tusho, and about the general moaning about javascript?
17:58:11 <tusho> AnMaster: But yeah, JS can be used for crap.
17:58:16 <tusho> Still, Kareha uses it quite elgantly.
17:58:27 <tusho> Although, I'm unsure if the deletion links work without it. Maybe.
17:58:34 <tusho> AnMaster: Yeah, it's open source and all that.
17:58:37 <tusho> (I didn't write it.)
17:59:10 <AnMaster> the delete link didn't work for me (I don't have javascript on atm)
17:59:18 <tusho> ok, you can't delete posts in kareha without JS, because the [Del] link is used to pop up a confirmation box. Of course, you can just manually do whatever it does, but.
17:59:22 <tusho> AnMaster: haha, I was just typing that
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18:01:16 <tusho_> Anyway, yeah, it'd be nice if the delete worked without JS.
18:01:24 <tusho_> I'll probably send a patch off to !WAHa.06x36
18:02:11 <tusho_> AnMaster: Oh, and there will be a bot on eso-std.org soon that logs this channel actually reliably
18:02:15 <tusho_> and a web interface for searching it
18:02:22 <tusho_> which is something we lack right now, good log searching
18:02:30 <tusho_> (I'll also import all of tunes.org's old logs in to the system)
18:02:44 <AnMaster> also what is up with your connection?
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18:04:21 <tusho> Stable machine never crashes.
18:04:32 <tusho> I heard nuttin' after "hm"
18:05:33 <tusho> And it's not my connection
18:05:37 <tusho> It's my machine, AnMaster! My machine!
18:05:45 <tusho> Specifically, my graphics card and its love affair with Linux: it has none.
18:05:54 <tusho> They fight a lot. And then the machine crashes.
18:06:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> also what is up with your connection?
18:06:03 <AnMaster> * tusho_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:06:15 <tusho> Yeah, I checked logs.
18:06:18 <tusho> that's why I said my connectoin
18:06:28 <AnMaster> I just read up to "<tusho> I heard nuttin' after "hm""
18:06:48 <AnMaster> 1) coding C 2) talking in this chan 3) talking elsewhere
18:07:17 <tusho> AnMaster: Want a WTFy algorithm?
18:08:46 <tusho> AnMaster: It is very WTFy.
18:09:13 <AnMaster> as long as it isn't in oklotalk or such ;P
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18:10:01 <tusho> AnMaster: it wasn't
18:10:09 <tusho> Anyway, no, I'll tell it in pseudocode.
18:10:12 <tusho> Just so you can see how wtfy it is.
18:10:30 <tusho> AnMaster: It takes a string, and returns a string.
18:10:32 <tusho> Here's how it works:
18:10:45 <tusho> Convert the input into Shift-JIS (a common japanese character set).
18:11:05 <tusho> Replace the chars & < > " ' with & < > " ' (respectively)
18:11:15 <tusho> Generate another string:
18:11:24 <tusho> - Take the second and third characters of the input with 'H.' appended to it.
18:11:33 <tusho> - Replace any characters not between '.' and 'z' with '.'.
18:11:50 <AnMaster> between? as in the byte is between?
18:11:55 <tusho> - Replace any of the characters in :;<=>?@[\]^_` with the corresponding character from ABCDEFGabcdef
18:12:00 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes, according to Shift-JIS.
18:12:04 <tusho> And now, the final step:
18:12:30 <tusho> Call the crypt() function with the input (post-converting-and-mangling) and the other string we just generated as the salt.
18:12:37 <tusho> Then, take the last 10 characters of its result.
18:12:44 <tusho> AnMaster: _THAT_ is how you turn a tripcode key into the encoded form.
18:13:04 <tusho> AnMaster: read the top of eso-std.org's forum
18:13:21 <AnMaster> well I agree that the algorithm is quite wtf
18:13:29 <tusho> Anyway, the escaping of the characters into HTML entities is presumably a case of just misplacing your escapes: but that was in 1999, and we're stuck with it now
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18:13:42 <tusho> The shift-jis thing is because, well, 2ch (the original anonymous board) is in Japanese.
18:13:55 <tusho> The salt thing, I have no idea. The 'H.' appending is to ensure a minimum size, I know that much.
18:14:05 <tusho> I think the replacing of characters for it is because of the range of crypt()
18:14:16 <tusho> The last 10 character thing is just so that the tripcodes are not too long.
18:14:37 <tusho> AnMaster: Thankfully, the resulting tripcodes aren't that obscure.
18:14:48 <AnMaster> well crypt() differs between systems don't it?
18:14:48 <tusho> 'tripcode' encodes into '3GqYIJ30bs'
18:14:51 <tusho> which doesn't look too ugly
18:14:55 <AnMaster> I mean actual implementation can differ
18:15:04 <tusho> AnMaster: It's the traditional DES one
18:15:20 <tusho> ie. regular unix crypt
18:15:31 <AnMaster> iirc the crypt() on *nix may not be DES nowdays
18:15:46 <AnMaster> I'm not sure about that though
18:16:08 <tusho> AnMaster: Yeah, most software calls the specific DES version
18:16:31 <tusho> Anyway, the end result of that godawful algorithm is that when I need to identify myself, my name shows up as tusho!pkokkY2.Ig
18:16:48 <Slereah> That's the point of a tripcode.
18:16:50 <tusho> (! seperates name and tripcode. To avoid impersonation by using ! in the name, the name is bold and the tripcode regular (or italics or whatever))
18:16:53 <tusho> Slereah: Yes. Of course.
18:17:13 <tusho> Slereah: Oh shut up. Sometimes identification is neccessary so a post makes sense.
18:17:25 <tusho> anyway, I was just explaining it to AnMaster for the wtfy-algorithm part.
18:18:10 <fizzie2> POSIX 1003.1-2001 says (line 7710): "The crypt() function is a string encoding function. The algorithm is implementation-defined."
18:18:30 -!- fizzie2 has changed nick to fizzie.
18:18:31 <tusho> We just had that discussion, if you read.
18:18:53 <fizzie> I did read it; it was just a confirmationatey "plain crypt() can indeed be something else" comment.
18:19:07 <tusho> AnMaster: Oh, and when I said about sending a patch to !WAHa.06x36, that is (perhaps obviously now) a person who is identified solely by their tripcode.
18:19:17 <tusho> Well, and their real name, which is public.
18:19:30 <tusho> The key for that trip is hR6k, it was cracked a while ago.
18:19:40 <tusho> (tripcodes are very easy to crack because they have a limited keyspace)
18:19:49 <tusho> but, uh, nobody cares.
18:20:06 <tusho> Well some people do so they invented 'secure tripcodes', which basically use a sane algorithm with a modern hashing function.
18:20:12 <tusho> But they differ from board to board, so they suck.
18:20:31 <AnMaster> what did you expect? des_crypt() only looks at first 8 chars iirc?
18:21:14 <tusho> and all of the other replacements
18:21:18 <tusho> and because you only use the last 8 characters
18:21:27 <AnMaster> and also... what about replay attack?
18:21:36 <AnMaster> tusho, you said 10 chars above
18:21:55 <tusho> and, replay attack, no idea. I have a 126 line C program on here that tracks tripcodes.
18:22:00 <Slereah> Why does the Ghostscript View logo look like a Klansman?
18:22:09 <tusho> It's all mega-optimized and stuff, and 21 lines are the bloomin' license
18:22:12 <AnMaster> I mean. isn't the string "tusho!pkokkY2.Ig" fixed?
18:22:16 <tusho> And it searches REGEXES.
18:22:19 <AnMaster> after all I could reuse that couldn't I?
18:22:26 <tusho> If you use in the name field:
18:22:30 <tusho> then it would display as
18:22:36 <tusho> *tusho!foo* (* = bold)
18:22:41 <tusho> but if I had the real tripcode 'foo'
18:22:47 <tusho> and did "tusho#magicfookey"
18:22:48 <AnMaster> how does it check tripcode then?
18:23:02 <AnMaster> so... server knows the private bit?
18:23:08 <tusho> You enter it each time.
18:23:20 <tusho> (Well, most boards set a cookie so it remembers it.)
18:23:21 <AnMaster> well it could technically register it
18:23:32 <tusho> AnMaster: Well, technically it could. But what would it do with it?
18:23:42 <tusho> Here, let me post a test thread on the ESO forum to demonstrate.
18:23:44 <AnMaster> also what about that "securetrip" thing?
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18:24:12 <tusho> AnMaster: it's encoded using a non-wtfy algo
18:24:14 <tusho> sha1 and that shizz
18:24:48 <ais523> AnMaster: it's good enough for practical use here
18:24:50 <tusho> AnMaster: it's good enough
18:25:01 <tusho> eh, Kareha treats ! as a tripcode seperator along with #
18:25:04 <tusho> so I can't forge, anyway
18:25:07 * tusho deletes that thread
18:25:23 <tusho> ais523: have you read the logs?
18:25:26 <tusho> the tripcode algorithm is lollerific
18:25:30 <ais523> I've only just got here
18:25:35 <tusho> ais523: wait, I'll just copypasta
18:25:53 <tusho> <tusho> Convert the input into Shift-JIS (a common japanese character set).
18:25:54 <tusho> <tusho> Replace the chars & < > " ' with & < > " ' (respectively)
18:25:54 <tusho> <tusho> Generate another string:
18:25:54 <tusho> <tusho> - Take the second and third characters of the input with 'H.' appended to it.
18:25:54 <tusho> <tusho> - Replace any characters not between '.' and 'z' with '.'.
18:25:54 <tusho> <tusho> - Replace any of the characters in :;<=>?@[\]^_` with the corresponding character from ABCDEFGabcdef
18:25:57 <tusho> <tusho> Call the crypt() function with the input (post-converting-and-mangling) and the other string we just generated as the salt.
18:26:00 <tusho> <tusho> Then, take the last 10 characters of its result.
18:26:06 <tusho> where crypt() is des_crypt
18:27:27 <tusho> Just how will Apple meet expectations? Using the patent application as a guide, Apple appears to be making room on the iPhone for flash memory, which means an end to Apple's standoff with Adobe (ADBE) that's kept iPhones from easily viewing a plethora of Internet videos.
18:27:35 <tusho> Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees... I don't think that's what flash means.
18:28:08 <tusho> ais523: http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200806051525DOWJONESDJONLINE000819_FORTUNE5.htm
18:28:11 <ais523> ...and I can understand people getting confused by Flash meaning two different things
18:28:17 <tusho> -By Ben Charny, Dow Jones Newswires; 415-765-8230; ben.charny@dowjones.com
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19:48:34 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: :-)
19:49:50 <tusho> So I'm going to create an esolangs subreddit. esolangs, esolang, or esoteric?
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19:50:24 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: esolangs.org, though
19:50:28 <tusho> and people might want esoteric for, well, esoterica
19:51:22 <RodgerTheGreat> ""Is it a land grab and attempt to create (patent) toll roads throughout iPhone Universe or just protection against a would-be competitor outflanking Apple and establishing barriers against them and their developer ecosystem?," said Mark Sigal, who writes the popular Network Garden blog." <- this is a maze of confused metaphors
19:51:23 <tusho> Slereah7: Like, 'programming' and 'politics' and 'pics'.
19:51:38 <tusho> You can make your own, now.
19:51:40 <tusho> For, like, a few months.
19:51:44 <tusho> So I guess an esolang one would be nice
19:51:47 <Slereah7> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_Portal#This_user_is_spamming.
19:53:12 <tusho> Slereah7: replied'd
19:53:56 <tusho> I have reverted his blanking with 'revert page blanking spam
19:53:59 <RodgerTheGreat> this is probably my favorite thing on the entire wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP#99_bottles
19:54:26 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: at some point people changed all examples to 'go to hell' except that one, which they replaced with a performance of the song
19:54:28 <tusho> unfortunately, it was reverted
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19:54:54 <Slereah7> It might need some cake though.
19:54:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a cameo on the "Iterating Quine" implementation
19:55:11 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: and
19:55:12 <tusho> <RodgerTheGreat> ERROR 8: DON'T_BE_A_DOUCHE_TO_YOUR_INTERPRETER ERROR
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19:56:02 <botte> ignore me, registering a nick
19:59:30 <Slereah7> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Limp.txt
20:00:22 <Slereah7> I didn't put in restrictions for processes, 'cause I so far don't have a lot of idea of how to use it
20:00:29 <botte> Slereah7: I hope you put it on the tite λιμπ
20:00:50 <RodgerTheGreat> Slereah7: how would you pronounce the name of this language?
20:01:33 <Slereah7> It was basically made to sound like "Lisp"
20:01:45 <Slereah7> Except I have no use for this s!
20:03:41 <botte> RodgerTheGreat: no
20:03:45 <botte> it combines all those languages
20:04:00 <Slereah7> Also, my IRC can't display greek characters
20:04:32 <botte> Slereah7: melab apologied
20:04:37 <Slereah7> It is a little too gay, even for Alan Turing
20:04:49 <botte> ais523: got a page for you to delete...
20:04:50 <botte> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Good_Esolang_Articles
20:04:56 <botte> another melab creation, but unfortunately totally useless
20:05:10 <botte> RodgerTheGreat: <?liphp (echo "hello world") ?>
20:05:51 <Slereah7> Lithp would probably just say "Hello thailor!"
20:06:20 <botte> <?liphp (if $admin (mysql_query "I can't bring myself to write this any further, it's awful
20:06:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I once designed a virtual CPU architecture called "FITH" that was vaguely based on FORTH.
20:06:46 <botte> ais523: anything re: deletion?
20:06:52 <botte> just a suggestion of course
20:06:55 <botte> but I don't think it's useful
20:06:57 <ais523> botte: I was trying to do some of it
20:07:04 <ais523> I would have managed it too if you hadn't stolen focus from me
20:08:37 <botte> ais523: I think melab has the lowest useful contrib:contrib ratio on esolang
20:08:38 <botte> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Melab
20:08:46 <botte> and the most redirects
20:09:11 <botte> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Melab/Jumble
20:09:17 <Slereah7> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Programming_Languages_Glossary
20:09:29 <Slereah7> and he dares say I'm spamming!
20:09:44 <botte> This is going to be, (once other people write it for me)
20:10:27 <Slereah7> How awesome would that be if it worked.
20:10:46 <botte> However, it kinda seems like me and ais are ripping on him now ;(
20:10:47 <Slereah7> ;; This is going to be the Limp interpreter in Scheme
20:11:48 <Slereah7> I hope my pi book arrives soon.
20:12:00 <Slereah7> I want to get on with the specs.
20:12:32 <Slereah7> Should I name the channel towards the user "Alice"?
20:13:16 <botte> Slereah7: Or bob.,
20:13:33 <Slereah7> I might do more than one, too.
20:13:45 <Slereah7> Although I rarely use anything else than stdin/out
20:14:34 <botte> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Melab/Jumble wow
20:14:37 <botte> I already pasted that
20:14:53 <Slereah7> And when do we get to meet him?
20:15:07 <Slereah7> And how can we convince him to go on the EsCo project?
20:15:29 <ais523> Slereah7: I managed to clean up after Melab, writing them a friendly warning now...
20:16:41 <Slereah7> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Limp
20:17:32 <botte> Slereah7: Put it at the unicode name.
20:17:36 <botte> And add a Limp redirect
20:17:49 <botte> Slereah7: Oh, and how about having Limp the first ESO language?
20:17:53 <Slereah7> I don't care too much right now.
20:18:04 <botte> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Melab/My_Favorite_Esoteric_Languages_Articles
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20:18:10 <botte> he never stops writing tiny useless pages
20:18:11 <Slereah7> Would it really be a good idea for the eso standard?
20:18:17 <Slereah7> I make really horrible interpreters.
20:18:24 <botte> ais523: (sorry for ping) but he just made another one
20:18:54 <botte> I think the Recursion redirect is good
20:18:56 <ais523> it's not as much as a problem in userspace
20:18:59 <botte> because it isn't "an infinite loop"
20:19:04 <botte> recursion, n. see recursion
20:19:12 <botte> Wiki redirects can be used as, basically, 'see N'
20:19:14 <ais523> because that's not done automatically
20:19:16 <botte> that's what they're often used for
20:19:18 <ais523> and that isn't recursive anyway
20:19:24 <botte> it's tail recursive
20:19:25 <ais523> recursion would be see /also/ recursion
20:19:42 <botte> ais523: no, not really
20:19:44 <ais523> botte: in the abstract, it's impossible to distinguish tail recursion from iteration
20:19:47 <botte> tail recursion isn't see ALSO
20:19:55 <ais523> recursion implies function calls
20:19:55 <Slereah7> Actually, I just put it because of an old quote.
20:19:55 <botte> well, exactly, re: tail recursion
20:20:03 <ais523> and function calls implies returning
20:20:06 <ais523> tail optimisation is an idiom
20:20:12 <botte> (define (foo) (foo))
20:20:17 <ais523> umm... tail recursion is an optimisation
20:20:18 <botte> does not mean "see also"
20:20:23 <botte> tail recursion is a property
20:20:23 <ais523> but it's done by the compiler, not the programmer
20:20:27 <Slereah7> By "recursive" I mean "defined by recursion."
20:20:28 <botte> Tail Call Optimization is an optimization
20:20:39 <botte> anyway, it's not like recursion needs a real definition, and it's not a bad joke
20:20:43 <ais523> if the programmer does it by hand (goto &subroutine), then it's iteration
20:21:00 <ais523> as in, done to death on Wikipedia and Uncyclopedia already
20:21:19 <botte> ais523: is it harming someone? if someone links to [[recursive]], then they get a cheap laugh
20:21:22 <botte> otherwise, nobody's harmed
20:21:33 <ais523> well, there should definitely be a real article at [[recursion]]
20:21:57 <ais523> we have articles about stacks, for instance
20:21:59 <botte> anyone on the esolang wiki already knows or is not likely to understand a definition
20:22:07 <ais523> and what esolangs use them
20:22:49 <ais523> Slereah7: yes, likely it would be mentioned in an article about recursion
20:22:50 <Slereah7> Queues are the orphans of esolangs.
20:23:34 <ais523> Esolang's about computational structures that esolangs are built out of, as well as the esolangs themselves
20:24:16 <botte> ais523: well, I find the joke funny
20:24:20 <botte> ais523: how about this:
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20:24:30 <ais523> ihope: do you have an opinion on this? you're the only other Esolang admin online in this channel at the moment
20:24:39 <Slereah7> Well, I put it in because there were no articles on recursion.
20:24:45 <botte> 'Sorry I'm young but enthusiastic' -- melab to ais523
20:24:48 <botte> I bet he's asiekerka
20:24:52 <botte> or at least around the same age
20:24:54 <ais523> ihope: [[recursion]] should be a real article IMO
20:24:55 <Slereah7> If you want to put a real article instead, go ahead
20:25:01 <ais523> ehird wants it to be a redirect to [[recursion]]
20:25:06 <ais523> and not to have an article about it
20:25:06 <botte> I haev a better idea
20:25:20 <ais523> if you're suggesting mutual recursion, that's been done too
20:25:26 <botte> this idea is the best of both worlds
20:25:36 <ais523> what, put 'see recursion' in a hatnote?
20:25:43 <Slereah7> THESE HANDS, THEY DO NOT CREATE
20:25:52 <ais523> Slereah7: set up circumstances that expose ehird as being immature
20:25:55 <ihope> Does my opinion matter more because I'm an esolang admin?
20:26:05 <botte> ais523: <span style="display:block"> can act as a div, right?
20:26:12 <ais523> ihope: well, it means your opinions are more likely to tally with graue's than other people's
20:26:14 <botte> is <img> forbidden?
20:26:16 <ais523> botte: yes, even in IE I think
20:26:24 <botte> how can I get around that?
20:26:27 <ihope> Slereah7: can they destroy subatomic particles from lead atoms, turning them into gold atoms?
20:26:28 <botte> ah, a span with a background
20:26:37 <ais523> botte: WTF are you trying to do
20:26:48 <ais523> it may quite possibly be the sort of thing I have to clamp down on
20:26:50 <botte> ais523: you'll see
20:26:53 <botte> it's simple enough
20:26:56 <botte> it's not malicious
20:27:16 <Slereah7> ihope : They can do nuclear reactions with lead atoms
20:27:30 <Slereah7> But it would take so much energy there's not a lot of point
20:27:37 <Slereah7> You'd get richer selling that energy.
20:28:01 <Slereah7> I'm not sure there's a Ld -> Au reaction, but there probably is.
20:32:33 <botte> it's in his userspace
20:33:14 <Slereah7> Language number 2 isn't very clear so far.
20:33:27 <Slereah7> But really, you can see he's beginning.
20:33:41 <Slereah7> He yet doesn't know the most important part is finding a spiffy name.
20:33:47 <botte> Slereah7: Language number 1 is pretty cool
20:34:35 <Slereah7> "The most important thing in the programming language is the name. A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language."
20:34:44 <Slereah7> Donald Knuth knows how it's done!
20:34:54 <ais523> Slereah7: is that whole thing in quotes the name of a language?
20:35:07 <botte> I am going to do that
20:35:47 <botte> ais523: Recursion ON WHEELS!!!
20:36:28 <Slereah7> You'll be banned from the wiki!
20:36:36 <Slereah7> They'll think you're Willy on Wheels.
20:36:36 <botte> Slereah7: ONE MAN...
20:36:46 <botte> "We've got... a vandal."
20:37:00 <botte> "WE'VE GOT AN EMERGENCY SITUATION!! SOMEONE RENAMED A JOKE PAGE!!"
20:37:04 <botte> "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!"
20:37:13 <botte> "Son, I want you to know I love you."
20:37:17 <botte> THE ESOLANG WIKI...
20:37:24 <botte> "I'm INNOCENT!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!"
20:37:32 <botte> FOR A CRIME HE DID NOT COMMIT...
20:37:40 <botte> "Ha, you think you fool us? We know you did it."
20:37:49 <botte> COMING 2009... DIRECTED BY STEVEN SPEILBERG..
20:39:29 <Slereah7> Also : http://www.somethingawful.com/flash/shmorky/movietrailer.swf
20:42:02 <botte> Slereah7: is this infinite
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20:42:42 <Slereah7> And THIS WOULD BE THE BEST MOVIE EVER
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20:45:59 <augur> haskell powersets are AWESOME
20:46:24 <Slereah7> Powersets, as in set theory powersets?
20:47:22 <augur> no clue but the way you get them in haskell is so awesome :o
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20:48:42 <ihope> Cool. The most important thing in the programming language is the name. A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language. is apparently a valid name for a wiki page.
20:49:19 <Slereah7> Let's make a language with that name!
20:49:36 <botte> Slereah7: I already suggested that
20:49:42 <botte> And it's WITH THE QUOTES.
20:49:49 <botte> Now I hereby reserve that language name & pgae.
20:50:00 <Slereah7> Combinators, stacks, tapes, whatever
20:50:06 <ihope> You get the one with quotes, we get the one without quotes.
20:50:25 <ihope> So functional elements, both typed and untyped, as well as string manipulation.
20:50:30 <ais523> ihope: it would be as long as it contains no banned characters (which it doesn't), no partially-banned characters in the wrong context (which it doesn't), and is no more than 255 characters long
20:50:31 <botte> it will be a collaborative, wiki-based project to define a LANGUAGE OF STUFF
20:50:32 <ihope> No, our languages will fight against each other!
20:50:41 <botte> I'll create the page
20:50:47 <botte> which will be about as useful as Melab's to start with!
20:51:06 <ais523> <ihope> Now for a cute little separator that's valid Haskell
20:51:17 <ais523> ihope: what does that separator do, anyway?
20:51:27 <ihope> {- and -} are Haskell's comment markers.
20:51:32 <Slereah7> botte : The stub should say something like "This is going to be an awesome language"
20:51:34 <ihope> So it does nothing at all.
20:51:40 <botte> Slereah7: way ahead of you
20:51:40 <botte> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%22The_most_important_thing_in_the_programming_language_is_the_name._A_language_will_not_succeed_without_a_good_name._I_have_recently_invented_a_very_good_name_and_now_I_am_looking_for_a_suitable_language.%22
20:52:06 <ihope> We'll call it " for short.
20:52:21 <ihope> Make sure it uses probability.
20:52:24 <Slereah7> I once had an incredibly stupid idea for a language that had pretty much every feature imaginable.
20:52:41 <Slereah7> The biggest problem was compatibility between the different paradigm
20:52:44 <botte> " is a good name for it
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20:53:33 <botte> "Most important: nickname"
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20:54:59 <Slereah7> We should find an idea before someone says "Oh fuck it let's just make a brainfuck clone"
20:56:21 <ais523> hmm... maybe a rewriting lang that rewrites its own source code
20:56:26 <ais523> but can only rewrite one char at a tim
20:56:28 <RodgerTheGreat> like, a basic instruction set largely composed of functionality for copying the program's data, and then in order to loop you have to anticipate a certain percentage of mutation
20:56:38 <botte> wait, no. a _typed_ rewriting language
20:56:49 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: that's like Java2K+SMITH
20:57:03 <ais523> actually, I'd like to see a lang which is like Java2K but more interesting
20:57:21 <ais523> Java2K just had a do everyting twice to square the chance of it failing mechanic
20:57:22 <ihope> Typed rewriting languages are so... the way of the future. :-)
20:57:25 <ais523> which was pointeless, really
20:57:27 <RodgerTheGreat> my first thought was something like redcode, but we could try making it a forthlike, perhaps?
20:58:05 <RodgerTheGreat> plus I'd imagine this language could be inherently multithreaded as a feature of replication
20:58:20 <Slereah7> Maybe we should make *this* the ESO language.
20:58:25 <botte> wow suprised isn't a word
20:58:38 <botte> Slereah7: I agree.
20:58:48 <botte> I intend to cre- oh wait this isn't agora
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20:59:07 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: actually rewriting languages tend to end up inherently more or less multithreaded anyway
20:59:14 <ais523> Thue is multithreaded in my opinion
20:59:23 <botte> ais523: instead of multi-threaded...
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20:59:39 <botte> An asynchronous, parallel, lazy, typed rewriting language.
20:59:41 <ais523> a lazy rewriting lang? does that even make sense?
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21:00:04 <Slereah7> Melab is adding to his favorite language list.
21:00:25 <botte> ais523: does a language that simply rewrites its own source being typed make sense?
21:00:28 <botte> About as much, I'd say.
21:00:31 <botte> As wll as 'asynchronous'.
21:00:34 <botte> Thus, we have a challenge!
21:00:44 <ais523> botte: I can just about imagine a typed rewriting lang
21:00:51 <botte> ais523: that rewrites its own source?
21:00:55 <augur> are there any languages that dont evaluation anything until necessary?
21:00:59 <augur> e.g. even expressions?
21:01:02 <ais523> I can't figure out how it would be done
21:01:04 <botte> augur: No! It's not called haskell.
21:01:09 <botte> ais523: augur codes haskell
21:01:18 <ihope> Yeah, typed self-rewriting languages are quite possible.
21:01:19 <RodgerTheGreat> how about a language that only possesses analog values as primitives?
21:01:23 <ais523> but typed rewriting sort of makes sense
21:01:25 <augur> haskell evaluations expressions immediately afaik
21:01:28 <ais523> as in you can only rewrite integers into integers
21:01:29 <botte> ais523: what about that, but where the type system is the value system and it has dependent types?
21:01:32 <ais523> and functions into otehr functions
21:01:33 <botte> You know, that stuff I love so much.
21:01:36 <botte> It'd like .. rewrite types
21:01:41 <augur> not that there really are expressions as such but
21:01:46 <ais523> <augur> haskell evaluations expressions immediately afaik
21:01:55 <ihope> The type system is the value system and it has dependent types. Difficult. :-)
21:02:02 <botte> ihope: No, not really.
21:02:12 <botte> foo :: String -> String
21:02:13 <ais523> augur: try taking the first 1000 elements of [1..]
21:02:20 <botte> (->) :: Type -> Type -> Type
21:02:20 <ihope> If it's self-rewriting, I mean.
21:02:22 <ais523> and then tell me that it evaluates expressions immediately
21:02:31 <botte> Haskell type synonyms are functions taking some Types and returning one.
21:02:43 <botte> a type that determines the type of a printf formatter - String -> Type
21:02:45 <augur> ais523: list monads aren't expressions i'd say :p
21:02:50 <botte> So that, but in a self-rewriting language.
21:02:55 <augur> tho haskell doesnt really have expressions in the traditional sense i guess
21:02:59 <botte> augur: Don't talk about things you don't know about.
21:03:00 <ais523> augur: that has nothing to do with monads
21:03:08 <ais523> [1..] is an infinite list
21:03:23 <ais523> but elements are only evaluated as needed
21:03:24 <Slereah7> Melab updated his favlangs *again*?
21:03:31 <ihope> Haskell doesn't have expressions in the traditional sense?
21:03:39 <ihope> What's the traditional sense, then?
21:03:41 <ais523> Slereah7: I think he wanted to make it a collaborative project
21:03:42 <augur> well, haskell is all functions
21:03:43 <Slereah7> How can he even put that much again, did he read all the specs?
21:03:45 <botte> Slereah7: I just updated it by removing all his lines of [[]]!
21:03:49 <augur> which i guess are a kind of expression
21:03:50 <botte> ais523: 'MY' favourite
21:03:58 <ais523> he's trying to do something along the lines of Wikipedia's favourite articles, I think
21:04:02 <ihope> 3 isn't a function in Haskell.
21:04:05 <augur> but i was thinking of stuff like expressions in imperative languages
21:04:06 <botte> MY favourite esolangs, ais523
21:04:08 <botte> and it's in his userspcea
21:04:18 <ais523> botte: yes, he was trying to do it outside userspace first
21:04:21 <Slereah7> I'll forgive him if he <3 my esolangs
21:04:27 <augur> i suppose i should rephrase
21:04:30 <botte> ais523: He's a wiki noob, that's why.
21:04:34 <botte> He doesn't know that "me" doesn't mean "me".
21:04:36 <Slereah7> But apparently he didn't like the Andrei Machine 9000.
21:04:47 <augur> are there any imperative languages that dont evaluate expressions immediately?
21:04:51 <Slereah7> Fuck, I should make an interpreter of that one day
21:05:10 <ais523> augur: well, CLC-INTERCAL has something a bit like that
21:05:19 <augur> it sounds like we need an esolang with it
21:05:22 <ais523> you can set up an expression to be evaluated only when it becomes not an error
21:05:27 <Slereah7> Wait, the Andrei Machine 9000 isn't in the language list
21:05:28 <ais523> but it's not the same, really
21:06:41 <ihope> Let's have a language where all instructions are executed only when they need to be, so it's difficult to get things in the right order.
21:06:47 <Slereah7> Does anyone have an idea what would be a good language to emulate the andrei machine?
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21:07:09 <Slereah7> It is fucking terrible for input!
21:07:10 <ais523> Slereah7: ideally compiling it into a graph-rewriting lang would work
21:07:14 <ais523> but I'm not sure if there are any
21:07:24 <ais523> Eodermdrome is one but I haven't specced it up yet
21:07:35 -!- olsner has joined.
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21:07:38 <ais523> and can't think of a sensible way to write an interp for it
21:07:52 <Slereah7> Why Kolmogorov, why didn't you make a language of it!
21:08:14 <Slereah7> There's so many paradigm with absolutely no widespread languages.
21:08:42 -!- Slereah7 has changed nick to Slereah.
21:08:59 <ihope> \x.\y.``xyy can't be written any shorter than ``s`k`s``s`k``sii``s`k``s`ksk``s`k`sikk?
21:09:20 <ihope> Isn't ``ss`ki the same?
21:09:57 <Slereah> Either through my abstraction eliminator or the "Combinator birds" list
21:10:31 <ais523> ihope: not sure, I'm really bad at evaluating SKI in my head when it's been optimised
21:10:34 <ihope> Write a better abstraction eliminator. :-)
21:10:42 <ihope> ```ss`kix = ``sx``kix = ``sxi; ```sxiy = ``xy`iy = ``xyy.
21:10:58 <ais523> that's reverse abstraction elimination
21:11:10 <ihope> And don't tell me ``s`k`s``s`k``sii``s`k``s`ksk``s`k`sikk is easier to evaluate in your head.
21:11:12 <Slereah> ihope : my better eliminator doesn't use SKI
21:11:23 <ihope> Write a slightly worse one, then. :-P
21:11:33 <Slereah> I also actually have an optimisator
21:11:39 <Slereah> It is called THE JUGGERNAUT
21:11:58 <Slereah> With... some optimisation.
21:12:38 <ihope> How about I go and shorten a few of the SKI things on that page?
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21:14:34 <botte> Do as you wish, as long as it's correct. <-- Philosophy of life
21:14:37 <ihope> `y``xxy, ``si`xx, ``s`k`si``sii.
21:14:48 <ihope> Same as what's on the wiki already for that one.
21:17:48 <Slereah> If you can also shorten the Fibonacci program, you are quite heroic!
21:18:03 <ihope> `y`xy, ``six, `si, same as the wiki. `yx, ``si`kx, ``s`k`sik, same as the wiki. `x`yy, ``s`kx``sii, ``s``s`ksk`k``sii, same as the wiki. `x`yz, ``s`kxy, `s`kx, ``s`ksk, same as the wiki.
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21:18:50 <Slereah> I used every mean possible to shorten it
21:19:00 -!- olsner has joined.
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21:19:04 <Slereah> And make it totally unreadable
21:19:26 <ihope> ``xzy, ``sx`ky, ``s`k`sxk, ``s``s`ks``s`kksi`kk... whatever.
21:19:37 -!- botte has changed nick to tusho.
21:20:00 <ihope> What I'm concerned about now is ``s`k``s``s`k``s`ksks`kk``s`k`sik for ``zxy.
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21:20:41 <Slereah> I think I used this one : http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/combinator/birds.html
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21:21:25 <ihope> ``zxy, ``s``si`kx`ky, ``s`k`s``si`kxk, ``s``s`ks``s`kk``s`ks``s`k`sik`kk.
21:21:49 <Slereah> I could feed it to the JUGGERNAUT
21:22:04 <Slereah> But I really don't want to wait three days for the results.
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21:22:23 <ais523> Slereah: it would just output ``zxy, surely?
21:22:26 <ihope> Well, if your computer can stay up for three days...
21:22:41 <ais523> anyway, why not just optimise the Juggernaut a bit?
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21:23:24 <tusho> ais523: it's a brute-forcer written in bad python
21:23:25 <Slereah> ais523 : When I noticed it took long hours to do anything complex
21:23:41 <Slereah> I said "Fuck this, I'm going to rewrite the interpreter"
21:23:51 <Slereah> Then, I tried writing it in C.
21:23:52 <ais523> tusho: exactly, that's why I thought it might be optimisable
21:24:02 <Slereah> But since I'm lame at C, I gave up.
21:26:36 <Slereah> Although it might be simple enough to write in Scheme
21:26:36 <Slereah> Although it was already optimised a little
21:26:36 <Slereah> For instance, it discarded such things as `iC
21:26:36 <Slereah> And never went further than a hundred steps or so, in case it wasn't stopping.
21:26:56 <Slereah> (Plus, it was only good for pure combinators, because of the method it used)
21:28:08 <ihope> "Oh, that's our common lip. Today it's Bob's turn."
21:28:14 <tusho> http://esolangs.reddit.com/
21:28:44 <ihope> "Of course, we all talk with it when he's not saying anything."
21:29:05 <Slereah> Who is the other dude, is it Alice?
21:30:44 <tusho> other dude ... alice
21:31:03 <ihope> It's a cryptographic lip, I bet.
21:35:12 <Slereah> How can you speak if you have no lips, mister Bob
21:35:57 <Slereah> Melab doesn't like mah langs.
21:36:16 <Slereah> Sure, they're stolen from computational models over 40 years old!
21:36:22 <Slereah> But I did them with love and care!
21:37:05 <tusho> Did I mention http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/?
21:37:25 <Slereah> What are we supposed to put in it?
21:37:46 <tusho> Just like what programming.reddit has, but esolangs.
21:38:00 <Slereah> What does programming.reddit has?
21:38:07 <tusho> Programming stuff.
21:38:29 <Slereah> So... Is it for programs about esolangs, or in esolangs?
21:39:00 <tusho> Slereah: It's what programming.reddit has, but for esolangs.
21:39:29 <Slereah> "Why I Dislike C++ For Large Projects (mistybeach.com)"
21:39:42 <tusho> that's just an article someone submitted.
21:39:48 <Slereah> Is it going to be nothing but EsCo jokes?
21:40:01 <Slereah> I'm trying to figure it out!
21:40:09 * ais523 hasn't heard any good EsCo jokes in a while
21:40:12 <tusho> Links. About esolangs.
21:40:24 <tusho> ais523: Well, obviously. The EsCo conspiracy is here - we're all just programs interpreted by it.
21:40:27 <Slereah> Are there any, outside of us?
21:40:50 <ais523> Slereah: yes, lots, but they tend to be old and unmaintained
21:40:59 <ais523> LOLCODE was the first big new one in a while and it's rubbish
21:41:25 <Slereah> Most people just walk upon Brainfuck, write some stuff in it and walk away
21:41:47 <tusho> lolcode is still around
21:41:50 <Slereah> It takes some sort of madman to stay D:
21:42:02 <tusho> [[It was one year ago today, May 27, 2007, when I opened the doors to lolcode.com. It's been a pretty amazing year since then. LOLCODE has evolved from a joke post on my blog just two days before to what's becoming a fairly standard “Hello World” for compiler writers, virtual machine creators, and API publishers]]
21:42:06 * tusho sheds a tear for LOLCODE ...
21:42:51 <Slereah> Isn't Lolcode pretty much C in kitten?
21:43:25 <tusho> C by people who don't understand C.
21:44:04 <ais523> lolcode looks like it's going ridiculously strong, actually?
21:44:18 <tusho> ais523: unfortunately.
21:44:34 <ais523> it's not that bad really, just bland
21:45:17 <Slereah> Like most big projects in kitten
21:45:26 <tusho> ais523: they have committies
21:45:32 <tusho> and democratic voting
21:45:34 <tusho> and versioned standards
21:45:35 <tusho> [[While this was not explicitly voted upon, it seemed to be taken for granted. It was the standard used for commenting in examples and has been adopted by nearly all developers in the developer meeting. Hopefully this will be standardized at the next developer meeting.]]
21:45:40 <Slereah> The Bible in kitty isn't very lulz either
21:46:38 <tusho> idea for a project.
21:46:42 <tusho> (ais523 will like this)
21:47:01 <tusho> The standard unix utilities, coded in a mindbendingly eso way.
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21:47:19 <tusho> Slereah: Well, I just explained it.
21:47:24 <Slereah> Won't that go the same way as the esoOS?
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21:47:50 <ais523> tusho: a sort of EsoGNU?
21:48:03 <tusho> ais523: Well yes, but GNU weren't the first to write coreutils.
21:48:07 <tusho> Coreutils aren't that complex.
21:48:23 <tusho> I am going to write true(1) first. It will break your brain.
21:48:27 <ais523> tusho: I know they weren't
21:48:46 <ais523> IIRC they were the first to try to rewrite them from scratch despite them all having already been written, though
21:48:46 <tusho> Oh, and we will be using POSIX and C89. So no long options, they're too simple.
21:49:03 <tusho> I am going to make true malloc().
21:49:19 <ais523> tusho: ah, you mean IOCCC-style writing rather than eso-style writing
21:49:28 <tusho> esoteric-style writing
21:49:37 <tusho> as in, the program is written perfectly sanely
21:49:40 <ais523> you should make it perform network accesses for a reason which is actually very important
21:49:40 <tusho> but it operates insanely
21:49:48 <tusho> not true(1), but cat can do that
21:49:59 <tusho> cat(1) ftp's to a public ftp server, then downloads it
21:50:14 <tusho> you can configure the server in /etc/catrc, ~/.catrc and -s
21:51:20 <ais523> tusho: that's a security risk
21:51:28 <ais523> it should use a TCP connection on loopback to catd
21:51:33 <tusho> ais523: hahahaha yes
21:51:52 <ais523> wow, the concept of catd is just mindblowing
21:52:14 <Slereah> Melab did a third language!
21:53:22 <ais523> maybe we should point them to #esoteric, it's spammy on the wiki but here it wouldn't reduce the signal/noice ratio appreciably
21:53:23 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Melab/Directory
21:53:27 <tusho> he made a sitemap of his user space!!
21:53:32 <tusho> without links to boot
21:53:45 <tusho> that is the best thing ever
21:53:48 <ais523> tusho: maybe you should point them to [[Special:Prefixindex/User:Melab]]?
21:54:08 <tusho> ais523: I think the problem is more having that many articles
21:54:25 <ais523> well, I'd rather he spams up his userspace than the rest of the wiki
21:57:16 <tusho> ais523: hmm, is it destination or source first for functions? I always forget.
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22:00:15 <tusho> huh, why did ais523 go?
22:02:12 <Slereah> There was so many projects thrown in today.
22:02:53 <Slereah> I dunno. Compared to most days, there seem to have been a lot of projects created
22:03:04 <Slereah> Probably to be quickly abandoned, but such is the internet way.
22:03:06 -!- timotiis has joined.
22:06:27 <olsner> it's funny how many times the source-code in database idea surfaces and disappears ... and it never has become very mainstream
22:06:35 <tusho> olsner: because it sucks
22:06:46 <tusho> Slereah: wow you fixed his page
22:06:49 <tusho> burst of kindness?
22:07:02 <tusho> What should I make 'loop forever'?
22:07:36 <Slereah> I'm just that kind of guy.
22:07:49 <tusho> care to answer my q? :P
22:07:52 <olsner> (someone posted a blog post about that on reddit)
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22:08:59 <tusho> olsner: got an opinion?
22:09:30 <Slereah> Loop forever "LOOK AROUND YOU"
22:10:24 <tusho> Slereah: It must be one character.
22:10:29 <tusho> where C iz a character
22:11:59 <Slereah> Heh. The 2006 eso contest is still on the frist page.
22:13:16 <tusho> Slereah: http://rafb.net/p/u1vmQA55.html
22:13:26 <tusho> This true(1) can exit with any status code, with a shortcut for 1 (false).
22:13:31 <tusho> It can also loop forever.
22:13:39 <tusho> It has an option to display help.
22:14:17 <Slereah> Fun thing about this is, I can actually read the code
22:14:25 <Slereah> But since I don't know shit of GNU or something else
22:14:31 <Slereah> I don't understand what it's for
22:15:19 <tusho> Slereah: It's just a lunix command.
22:15:28 <tusho> It's meant to just exit with code 0 ('success')
22:15:31 <tusho> Mine can do SO MUCH MORE.
22:15:34 <tusho> It's a parody of gnu's true.
22:15:43 <tusho> Which has localization hooks, long options, etc.
22:15:49 <tusho> Here is a full true(1):
22:15:53 <tusho> int main(void) { return 0; }
22:15:58 <tusho> GNU's is over 50 lines.
22:19:13 <tusho> Slereah: Oh dear, esolangs.org is linked to on 4chan's /prog/. (There was a link to a thread there on some site, I clicked the thread list out of curiosity)
22:19:44 <tusho> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1211595052 They don't like dimensifuck, apparently.
22:21:52 <Slereah> "You can lazy evaluate that all you want, it still doesn't make sense."
22:22:21 <tusho> make: *** No rule to make target `sense'. Stop.
22:22:24 <tusho> No rules to making sense. Deep.
22:22:36 <Slereah> This thread might not last long.
22:24:40 <olsner> make has been pleading for people to "Stop." for ages, still they keep trying their silly nonexistant targets
22:26:11 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Melab/Quine
22:26:16 <tusho> make: *** No rule to make target `Stop. Please. Will. You. Just'. Stop.
22:26:19 <Slereah> Someone need to have a talk witj Melab.
22:26:57 <ihope> Is Melab doing bad things?
22:27:22 <tusho> ihope: Making an awful lot of pages in his userspace.
22:27:29 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Melab#Plethora_of_user_pages Talk had.
22:27:31 <tusho> With my super new account!
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22:29:54 <Slereah> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1212756254/3
22:30:13 * ihope calculates a few trigonometric functions modulo various prime numbers
22:31:16 <ihope> Modulo 2 is pretty easy. sin(0) = 0, sin(1) = 1, cos(0) = 1, cos(1) = 0.
22:32:59 <Slereah> I drive a car (actually I do not, because cars sucks)
22:36:50 <ihope> Hmm. It looks like modulo 3, either sin(x) or cos(x) but not both will be 0.
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22:37:53 <tusho> Therefore, there are no Rules and we have not really been playing a Game at
22:37:53 <tusho> all since the inception of 4E70.}}- B nomic
22:38:00 <olsner> sin(1) = 1? surely that is wrong?
22:38:14 <ihope> Anything's possible in a Galois field!
22:38:34 <Slereah> You know what happened to Galois?
22:38:44 <tusho> Slereah: And then turned into a HASKELL COMPANY
22:39:02 <Slereah> ... I have a song about Galois.
22:39:23 <Slereah> I bought the "Klein Four" CD.
22:39:31 <tusho> Slereah: Marry me.
22:39:54 <ihope> The path of love is never smooth / But mine's continuous for you
22:40:05 <Slereah> And you can get it for free
22:40:11 <Slereah> I don't advise buying the CD.
22:40:18 <Slereah> The other songs aren't that good.
22:40:40 <Slereah> "Mathematical paradise" is okay. And the ballad of Galois too.
22:40:45 <tusho> Slereah: Well duh, it's the spirit!
22:40:53 <Slereah> I don't listen to the rest anymore.
22:41:05 <augur> i need to find someone to work with
22:41:20 <Slereah> I'm not learning Javascript for you.
22:41:43 <augur> slereah, look at this: http://280slides.com/Editor/
22:42:38 <tusho> augur: gb2/web2.0/
22:43:53 <tusho> That's what i'm trying to tell you.
22:48:08 <Slereah> How did Melab managed to misspell article names on his favorite page?
22:50:32 <ihope> In an exciting twist, modulo 3, cos(0) = 2.
22:52:19 <ihope> And this implies that sin(n) = 0 for all n here.
22:52:47 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:53:11 <ihope> Oh, darn it, these sine and cosine formulas are actually inconsistent modulo 3.
22:56:55 <ihope> Wait, did I divide both sides by sin(0) without knowing it wasn't 0 (and, in fact, knowing it was 0)?
22:58:19 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#What_happened_to_NPOV.3F
22:58:25 <tusho> "The formation and evolution of the Solar System is a theory which claims that the solar system began 4.6 billion years ago with the gravitational collapse of a small part of a giant molecular cloud."
22:59:23 <Slereah> Everyone knows that it's actually Zeus ejaculating on Jesus
22:59:35 <Slereah> (I was sleeping in the library during bible class)
23:23:26 -!- augur has changed nick to psygnisfive_.
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00:05:01 <tusho> you are maintaining that guy's page :P
00:07:05 <Slereah> I want to see what crazyv shinanigans he'll think up next!
00:07:19 <tusho> Slereah: probably he's WILLY ON WHEELS
00:10:09 <tusho> Slereah: I bet you're melab
00:11:04 <Slereah> I don't even understand that esolang of his.
00:11:52 <tusho> Slereah: It does look pretty cool.
00:30:41 <Slereah> I'm trying to think of a language to write the Andrei Machine in it
00:30:49 <Slereah> But I don't know that much.
00:31:13 <Slereah> I know like three real languageqs enough to program in.
00:33:00 <oerjan> Haskell (and other functional languages too) is considered very good for writing other languages in
00:34:00 <Slereah> Would doing some graph-related shinanigans be practical in it?
00:35:02 <oerjan> hm graph support is a bit hairy if you want it pure... but there is a Data.Graph.* hierarchy
00:35:53 <oerjan> ML means meta-language - it was essentially _made_ for doing other languages in
00:36:12 <oerjan> (well a theorem prover originally, but still)
00:37:37 <Slereah> "Programming language graph" : http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~flab/languages.html
00:39:47 <Slereah> It also only goes up to 97.19%
00:39:51 <Slereah> Where are the other languages :o
00:41:07 <Slereah> Also this : http://www.levenez.com/lang/history.html
00:41:12 <Slereah> It's actually quite nifty.
00:41:38 <oerjan> the TIOBE index has more (ooh, haskell is up to no. 31 now, i recall 50 or so)
00:42:34 <oerjan> hm maybe i remember wrong it only goes to 50
00:42:38 <Slereah> It also does not list INTERCAL
00:43:03 <oerjan> well it says they may have missed languages
00:43:13 <oerjan> truth in advertising there :)
00:44:54 <Slereah> "A Graph Rewriting Programming Language for Graph Drawing"
00:45:21 <Slereah> "The paper describes Grrr, a prototype visual graph drawing tool."
00:45:30 <Slereah> I hope it's available somewhere.
00:46:02 <lament> that sounds suspiciously like UML
00:46:42 <Slereah> I only find research papers
00:47:29 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
00:47:35 <Slereah> Come on, it was out in 1998!
00:47:46 <Slereah> You'd think in ten years, it would be easy to find!
00:48:13 <lament> you think it's easy to find something that was published in some obscure scientific journal 300 years ago?
00:48:28 <lament> that's 10 years internet time :)
00:49:04 <Slereah> Hell, with Wikipedia nowadays, who knows!
00:50:55 <Slereah> Come on guys, how is your paper supposed to be peer-reviewed if your peers do'nt have access to the program!
00:51:01 <Slereah> Give us a link, something!
00:54:55 <Slereah> Well, I suppose I'll never know how useful it would be!
00:59:18 <Slereah> is a lazy, pure, higher order functional programming language with explicit graph rewriting semantics; one can explicitly define the sharing of structures (cyclic structures as well) in the language;
01:01:08 <tusho> Slereah: Clean. Is like.
01:01:14 <tusho> Haskell. But with a few more weird stuff.
01:01:17 <tusho> And something weirder than monads.
01:01:19 <tusho> And. Nobody uses it.
01:01:25 <tusho> But. Their compiler is pretty cool.
01:01:38 <Slereah> "Computation is based on graph rewriting and reduction. Constants such as numbers are graphs and functions are graph rewriting formulas."
01:02:00 <Slereah> But if it can hosts the Andrei Machine 9000, I'll give it a look.
01:02:02 <oerjan> Also, knowing too much about it causes you to speak in short punctuated spurts.
01:03:02 <Slereah> It's a risk I'll have to take.
01:04:29 <tusho> Slereah: Oh, and. If Haskell isn't your thing for Andrei?
01:04:36 <tusho> It is, pretty much, the same paradigm.
01:04:43 <Slereah> There's a questionaire before the downloading of Clean.
01:04:45 <tusho> But.. nobody uses it. So you don't have the lovely #haskell people.
01:04:54 <Slereah> " I intend to use Clean for the following purpose:"
01:05:35 <Slereah> "Try to see if the graph rewriting features will help me construct the unholy Kolmogorov machine."
01:05:45 <Slereah> I hope this answer will help them in their marketing.
01:05:49 <oerjan> the underlying graph semantics is not necessarily any improvement for implementing actual graph data structures - haskell has been given graph rewriting semantics too
01:06:39 <tusho> Slereah: Yeah, Clean doesn't help you, in any way.
01:06:45 <tusho> It hinders you, because #HASKELL IS NICE DAMNIT
01:07:01 <oerjan> i think (but don't really know) making it explicit is more in order to support the uniqueness types that Clean uses instead of monads - to know whether things are copied you have to track them
01:07:58 <oerjan> why do you hate Haskell? Clean is _very_ similar in many respects so unless it's _just_ monads chances are you'll hate that too
01:08:20 <Slereah> I don't want to build it out of lists. I can just go back to Python for that.
01:09:49 <Slereah> Why do programmers hate graphs so much!
01:09:56 <oerjan> Data.Graph.* i hear, although there are at least _two_ implementations inside that
01:10:47 <oerjan> for Haskell it is somewhat more complicated because it is hard to make an efficient _immutable_ implementation of graphs, i think
01:11:29 <oerjan> also, in Haskell you often define your own data structures with data
01:11:57 <tusho> data structures... with data
01:11:59 <tusho> (I know what you meant.)
01:12:00 <oerjan> but ask in #haskell for better advice
01:12:06 <tusho> oerjan: he is scared of #haskell
01:12:15 <tusho> whenever he joins he just says I'M TOO SCARED TO SAY ANYTHING!11
01:12:31 <oerjan> also you may try ML (SML or Ocaml)
01:13:00 <oerjan> they are not lazy and so behave in some ways more intuitively to people from other languages
01:13:17 <oerjan> while still having much functional goodness
01:13:53 <tusho> oerjan: his languages are lazy
01:13:55 <tusho> so I doubt it's that
01:14:10 <tusho> oh, and #esoteric-blah if anyone wants to see a fun spam flood test
01:15:09 <Slereah> Lazy languages are good for esolangs.
01:15:19 <Slereah> I'm not too sure about real languages.
01:25:47 <Slereah> I'll make the damn graph out of lists.
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01:34:48 <Slereah7> Wait, Kolmogorov graphs aren't directed.
01:35:56 <lament> scheme does not have anything
01:36:49 <Slereah7> I'll just write some algorithm in pseudocode for a start
01:37:10 <Slereah7> I still have no idea how to find active zones and all.
01:37:49 <tusho> Slereah7: rewriting stuff is fun
01:43:43 <oerjan> Your code! 99 times! And then starting again from scratch!
01:43:48 <Slereah7> Oh wait, does the 0 node have to be in the active zone?
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01:45:06 <Slereah7> "By the active part U(S) of a state S we mean the subcomplex of the complex S consisting of the vertices and edges belonging to chains of length lambda <= N containing the initial vertex."
01:45:26 <Slereah7> Writing that active zone just got a whole lot easier!
01:45:43 <Slereah7> I just have to check the hoods of 0
01:46:47 * Slereah7 is totally scanning the article
01:47:20 <Slereah7> He's a commie, he probably won't mind.
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09:53:47 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/straw.txt cool lang
09:54:17 <oklopol> i especially like the way mutation is done
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15:01:21 <Slereah> I suppose no one knows how to use the PSP emulator?
15:05:48 <ais523> Program Segment Prefix?
15:05:55 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers3/PSPE.jpg
15:05:59 <ais523> or portable Playstation?
15:06:40 <AnMaster> I could help with getting the n64 emulator mupen64 working
15:07:03 <AnMaster> 1) don't try on x86_64, the code is mostly x86 asm 2) thus install a 32-bit chroot
15:12:48 * ais523 realises with horror that they had 5 different web browsers open at once a few minutes ago
15:13:24 <Slereah> You and your multiple personalities?
15:14:12 <ais523> Slereah: I was using singular they to refer to myself
15:14:21 <Slereah> load H:\pspe\ms0\PSP\GAME\SOFT1\EBOOT.PBP
15:14:30 <ais523> I use they for that in several cases
15:14:56 <ais523> incidentally, the browsers were IE, FF2, FF3, Konqueror, and Akregator's built in web browser
15:15:09 <ais523> I have Epiphany installed here too, but happened not to be using it at the time
15:15:33 <AnMaster> used by, for example, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and most, if not all other *nix
15:15:42 <AnMaster> Mac OS X use a custom format I know
15:16:08 <ais523> AnMaster: ELF is one of the formats that SCO claimed they owned the right to a while ago
15:16:22 <ais523> nobody believes them AFAICT, but that at least implies that SCO probably use it
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15:17:17 <Slereah> So how do I shot elf header?
15:17:48 <ais523> you use a linker that produces ELF
15:17:52 <ais523> to link the executable
15:18:25 <ais523> yes, SunOS uses ELF too
15:18:34 <ais523> and as a result it seems highly likely that Solaris does
15:19:04 <ais523> so IOW, it seems likely that every major OS but MacOS and Windows uses it by default
15:19:30 <ais523> and I suspect MacOS X is capable of using it but it isn't the default
15:19:37 <Slereah> "Shit happens. This is not a PSP Emulator. It wont play comercial games, ISOs or even ELFs."
15:19:53 <Slereah> I think my computer might not be the culprit.
15:20:18 <Slereah> "Fuck this software! those who are rich and can afford to buy psp FUCK YOU we cant just buy psp it is not cheap. LOOOKK AT YOUR MAMA AND FFFUCCCKK THEEEMM UPPP, BECAUSE YOU ARE ALL MUTHAFUCKING ASSHOLES! MOST AMERICANS ARE ASSHOLES"
15:20:31 <Slereah> I get the feeling this PSP emulator does not work so well as an emulator
15:20:42 <ais523> well, what does it emulate, then?
15:21:01 <ais523> maybe it could run PSPOS, whatever that is
15:21:27 <Slereah> Maybe I could try to find the game on PC.
15:21:35 <Slereah> But boy does it not look good
15:22:32 <ais523> Slereah: you aren't trying something illegal, are you?
15:22:47 <Slereah> I actually possess the Playstation CD.
15:22:58 <ais523> ah, but you want to run it on a different system
15:23:12 <Slereah> Well, my playstation doesn't work so good any more
15:23:20 <Slereah> Plus, I don't know where it is
15:23:34 <Slereah> And last time I tried it, the memory card wasn't working.
15:23:46 <ais523> those are all good reasons not to use it
15:24:17 <Slereah> I also don't know where the playstation CD is.
15:24:35 <Slereah> My mom probably put all of that somewhere mysterious.
15:25:39 <Slereah> If you want something illegal, try this! http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Kolmo/
15:25:50 <ais523> no, I don't want something illegal
15:25:58 <Slereah> But beware, or the American Mathematical Society might send their goons after you.
15:26:03 <AnMaster> Slereah, I won't click that link, what is it?
15:26:15 <ais523> there are a couple of illegal numbers
15:26:23 <Slereah> Well, it's technically copyrighted.
15:26:23 <ais523> both of which became famous on the internet
15:26:39 <Slereah> It's the Uspenski-Kolmogorov machine article
15:26:50 <AnMaster> Slereah, and why is that ileegal?
15:27:10 <Slereah> Well, it is copyright 1963 by the American Mathematical Society.
15:27:28 <ais523> the article itself is copyright infringement?
15:27:37 <Slereah> "No portion of this book may be reproduced without the written permission of the publisher"
15:28:26 <Slereah> Have mercy on me, office of technical services!
15:28:38 <Slereah> (The guys who did the translation)
15:30:06 <AnMaster> Your request for http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Kolmo/Kolmo%2001.jpg could not be fulfilled, because the domain name membres.lycos.fr could not be resolved.
15:30:31 <AnMaster> (spelling was sarcasm with intent)
15:30:58 <Slereah> No need for Tor, I'm sure the AMS isn't monitoring my websit!
15:31:47 <olsner> or so they want you to believe
15:32:39 <AnMaster> well I don't have time to read it, or knowledge to understand it
15:37:18 <Slereah> Actually, I would recommend reading from page 11 and on first.
15:37:39 <Slereah> It's easier to understand.
15:52:42 <ais523> nothing to do with esolangs AFAICT
15:52:49 <ais523> registered in Russia, unsurprisingly
15:53:03 <Slereah> I was googling for esolang
15:54:48 <Slereah> http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1042139
15:55:05 <Slereah> Magic players aren't enthusiastic at the idea.
15:55:13 <ais523> hey, Esolang has an article about that
15:55:17 <ais523> I even wrote a program in it
15:55:53 <ais523> the cards in it are a little out-of-date, though
15:56:11 <ais523> I admit to being slightly shocked that someone else went to the trouble of understanding the program well enough to fix a bug in it, though
15:58:00 <RodgerTheGreat> Slereah: what do you really expect? It's never even explicit in that post that you're talking about a programming language. The only people that could possibly have any idea what you're talking about would be people that already code in esolangs, and I doubt a wizards-of-the-coast forum is a good place to find those.
15:58:58 <RodgerTheGreat> so apparently I don't get to ridicule you for playing Magic. :/
15:59:10 <ais523> I don't play it at the moment
15:59:16 <ais523> because prices went up at the place where I used to play it
15:59:23 <ais523> and I tend to desert places when they increase prices
15:59:36 <ais523> it's a good idea for a game, though
15:59:54 <ais523> and it can certainly feel like programming at times
15:59:57 <Slereah> And as Knuth said, that's the most important part!
16:00:27 <ais523> oh dear, we seem to have a new meme
16:02:14 <RodgerTheGreat> so games are now the most important part. This could generate some interesting esolangs.
16:02:35 <ais523> well, there's my esolang-based text adventure
16:02:40 <ais523> which is not very complete
16:02:48 <ais523> and which I haven't written any of for ages
16:02:53 <Slereah> And there was that text adventure based esolang.
16:03:10 <ais523> and Lost Kingdoms, which is a text adventure written in an esolang
16:03:17 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: I demand you add this hat to your collection: http://www.costumecraze.com/HAT37.html
16:03:20 <ais523> heh, three different concepts
16:04:05 <Slereah> http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1042139
16:04:14 <Slereah> I mean, http://www.costumecraze.com/MASK54.html
16:04:21 <Slereah> I want to rob a bank with that mask.
16:04:23 <ais523> Slereah: used the wrong clipboard?
16:05:07 <RodgerTheGreat> Slereah: nah, you should rob a putt-putt golf course or a driving range with that mask
16:05:47 <Slereah> I found a French page on esolangs.
16:05:48 <RodgerTheGreat> this is actually rather terrifying: http://www.costumecraze.com/MASK56.html
16:05:54 <Slereah> There's something you don't see everyday.
16:06:14 <Slereah> The missing teeth make it look a little goofy.
16:08:11 <Slereah> Heh. The Klingon Hello world is "What do you want, universe?"
16:08:24 <ais523> Slereah: yes, that's about the closest you can get in Klingon
16:09:09 <Slereah> Those klingons are so full of boyish attitude.
16:09:59 <Slereah> The website is actually pretty horrible
16:19:18 <RodgerTheGreat> HOLY SHIT NEW DRESDEN CODAK http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_053.html
16:21:12 <Slereah> I'm trying to tie this to the previous comics
16:22:01 <Slereah> And if so, what is she doing in a jar?
16:24:47 <Slereah> I wonder if you could make a TC language with stupid mathematical functions.
16:25:16 <Slereah> I was thinking stuff like Ackermann and such
16:25:36 <Slereah> You can do Ackermann with , but can it work the other way around?
16:27:18 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthy_91_function
16:28:07 <RodgerTheGreat> sure, seems like a sufficiently evil way to provide a constant
16:28:33 <Slereah> Well, not all values get out 91.
16:29:06 <Slereah> I guess you'd have to include at least 0 in the language.
16:29:26 <Slereah> Plus, Ackermann can easily provide a successor operator, since A(0,n) = n+1
16:29:56 <RodgerTheGreat> so you can thus trivially generate any needed integers via ackermann
16:30:00 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: I also thought about a lang where Ackermann and inverse-Ackermann were the only operators
16:30:21 <ais523> also, I was going to have it so that everything in the entire lang was unprintable characters
16:30:33 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a very pure idea, but it might be more fun to have several functions like that, to add some variety
16:30:41 <ais523> e.g. ASCII 0-31 and 127, not allowing spaces, tabs, newlines or vtabs
16:31:30 <ais523> oh, and my lang was deliberately not TC
16:31:39 <ais523> it was an Ackermann-bounded automaton
16:31:56 <ais523> whenever it took input, it was allowed to allocate a certain amount of memory to use
16:32:04 <ais523> which it could calculate with the remnants of its old memory
16:32:20 <ais523> and a program can start with any amount of memory to begin with which must be specified in the code
16:32:24 <ais523> also, all memory was write-once
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16:32:39 <ais523> I haven't worked out the rest of the details yet, though
16:33:01 <ais523> anyway, the lang is definitely not TC, but likely to be powerful enough for most computations which aren't searches through an infinite search space
16:33:13 <ais523> like searching for Riemann hypothesis counterexamples, for instance
16:33:26 <RodgerTheGreat> so, we have A, R and M. can anybody think of other wildly impractical functions that could potentially be useful?
16:34:02 <ais523> well, there's Malbolge's tritwise-crz operator
16:34:18 <ais523> that was invented for the purpose of being wildly impractical
16:34:34 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: look-and-say operator
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16:35:09 <Slereah> ais523 : I like the way you think!
16:35:27 <ais523> oh, you may as well do generalised Graham's stuff
16:35:40 <ais523> because it would just be wrong not to be able to easily express A(g_64,g_64)
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16:36:24 <RodgerTheGreat> haha- check out the 71st-order polynomial related to look-and-say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence
16:36:26 <Slereah> Nah, Graham's notation makes some sort of sense.
16:36:48 <Slereah> Unlike the Ackermann functioncreated to be specifically non-primitive recursive.
16:38:05 <Slereah> Otherwise, I'm not sure how to get smaller numbers.
16:38:39 <ais523> inverse ackermann so you can do things like subtraction
16:39:08 <ais523> not so sure about that
16:39:14 <Slereah> To have some sort of functional Malbolge.
16:39:51 <ais523> IMO Malbolge's main interesting features are the c++,d++ stuff and the encryption of commands when they're run
16:40:18 <RodgerTheGreat> trying to use crazy to perform useful operations can also be interesting
16:41:34 <Slereah> So if no function definition, how to use all that?
16:41:59 <ais523> well, with some other control structure
16:42:19 <ais523> the standard ones are functional, iterative with looping, imperative with goto, and the fungelike method
16:42:28 <ais523> oh, declarative and concatenative too
16:42:30 <RodgerTheGreat> which would in effect give you quite powerful flow control and make recursive procedures easy
16:42:44 <ais523> what do you mean by 'piecewise functions' here?
16:43:29 <RodgerTheGreat> make it a purely functional language, and allow the programmer to specify values for output based on properties of the input
16:44:04 <RodgerTheGreat> wikipedia's description of Ackermann, for example, makes use of a piecewise definition
16:44:28 <RodgerTheGreat> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/a/e/0ae4053de098cc9554752b190a38bc56.png
16:44:40 <Slereah> So... Some conditional operator?
16:44:45 <ais523> the issue with allowing users to define their own functions is that they probably wouldn't end up using all the interesting ones the language offers
16:45:02 <Slereah> But this language would offer no interesting functions.
16:45:17 <RodgerTheGreat> ais523: which might be solved by allowing piecewise definitions, but not having conventional boolean operators. :D
16:45:33 <ais523> how many logic levels are we having?
16:45:48 <ais523> it's hard to come up with interesting boolean operators if you only have 2 logic levels
16:46:28 <ais523> as in, true/false are the usual logic levels for a boolean
16:46:35 <ais523> and that gives you operators like AND and OR
16:46:47 <ais523> but say if we had true/false/FILE_NOT_FOUND instead, that would make things more interesting
16:46:58 <Slereah> Doesn't intuitionist logic have an infinity of values?
16:51:59 <Slereah> So... Piecewise definition?
16:52:20 <Slereah> Using our crazy functions as logical operators?
16:55:54 <Slereah> What would it do if the third value hits?
16:56:16 <RodgerTheGreat> and toss in the greek letter idea for syntactic flavor
16:56:27 <ais523> Slereah: it would do the opposite
16:56:41 <ais523> e.g. if you say if(boolean) {a++}, and boolean is megafalse, it decrements a
16:56:41 <Slereah> What would be the opposite?
16:56:55 <ais523> OFC, that isn't the actual syntax
16:57:03 <ais523> just an example in syntax that's well-known
16:57:45 <Slereah> Opposite seems a little challenging, especially with the 91 function.
16:58:27 <ais523> hmm... what would 'opposite' mean here?
16:58:35 <ais523> instead of a=91(b), do b=91(a)?
16:58:42 <ais523> that would be one possibility
16:58:54 <ais523> OFC, this means you have to be able to assign to constants, but INTERCAL's never found that a problem
16:59:02 <ais523> and it used to be legal in Fortran
16:59:10 <ais523> confusing, too, because constants were passed to functions by reference
17:01:07 <Slereah> But if constants become functions, they still won't be fed arguments.
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17:02:11 <Slereah> Maybe we could rotate functions if we get the third value.
17:02:27 <Slereah> Like A becomes 91, 91 becomes look and say, what have yous.
17:02:59 <ais523> also, all commands other than conditionals should use the functions
17:03:11 <ais523> if you want to assign one variable from another, you have to do it through an Ackermann
17:03:29 <Slereah> Why "other than the conditionals"?
17:03:44 <ais523> Slereah: because they take boolean input
17:03:58 <Slereah> Well, you could just get the numbers mod 3.
17:05:02 <ais523> how will loops be done?
17:06:37 <ais523> how will function definition be done, then?
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17:22:40 <ais523> [17:24] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 33 seconds
17:24:39 <Slereah7> Is there a way to compute the Ramsey's numbers?
17:26:18 <ais523> most of them aren't known
17:26:39 <ais523> <wikipedia> At the time of writing, even the exact value of R(5,5) is unknown, although it is known to lie between 43 (Geoffrey Exoo) and 49 (Brendan McKay and Stanisław Radziszowski) (inclusive); barring a breakthrough in theory, it is probable that the exact value of R(6,6) will remain unknown forever.
17:27:03 <Slereah7> Then it might not be a good idea to include it.3
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17:28:28 <ais523> there's a neat Erdos quote on the same page
17:29:22 <Slereah7> Hiato, what would you think of some sort of functional Malbolge?
17:29:50 <olsner> "Imagine an alien force, vastly more powerful than us landing on Earth and demanding the value of R(5, 5) or they will destroy our planet. In that case, we should marshal all our computers and all our mathematicians and attempt to find the value. But suppose, instead, that they asked for R(6, 6), we should attempt to destroy the aliens."
17:30:13 <Hiato> err... well, lets see. Sounds interesting, though I doubt [one] would be able to take advantage of lazy evaluation in Malbolge
17:30:39 <ais523> how would the encryption be done?
17:30:46 <Hiato> olsne: Can you help me out
17:31:00 <Hiato> ais523: OOOH - Lets use my strem cipher
17:31:15 <ais523> Hiato: does it encrypt functions?
17:31:34 <Hiato> Well, it encrypts stuff :P Anything in the range [0;255]
17:31:50 <Hiato> so, yeah, it would be able to encrypt any binary info :)
17:31:52 <ais523> most functions aren't in the range [0;255]
17:31:58 <ais523> you could encode them as such
17:32:08 <ais523> but I don't think it's possible to have a unique encoding for functions
17:32:14 <ais523> at least, not in a TC system
17:32:21 <ais523> because it's uncomputable to determine whether two functions are the same
17:32:43 <Hiato> I was thinking along the lines of, the function name is encrypted, the function process is encrypted and the output s decrypted (not being encrypted in the first place)
17:33:02 <Slereah7> Also, what would the language be called?
17:33:24 <Hiato> and by encryption, I mean literal character encryption by means of my poly-alphabetic substitution self modifying network
17:33:30 <Hiato> heh, yeah, not bad
17:33:32 <ais523> after all, writing the xkcd number is one of the few things it would be good at
17:33:58 <Slereah7> Well, if we put in the Graham notation
17:33:58 <ais523> assuming it can calculate g_64 easily
17:34:07 <ais523> I was thinking just G(64)
17:34:15 <ais523> rather than the rest of the notation
17:34:22 <ais523> so you can get arbitrary Graham's numbers
17:34:49 <ais523> anyway, this is unlikely ever to be implementable
17:34:56 <Slereah7> What if we totally went overboard with that greek character idea?
17:35:01 <ais523> what's look-and-say of the XKCD number, anyway?
17:35:04 <Slereah7> What if we used function definition, ancient greek style?
17:35:24 <ais523> bringing a whole new meaning to 'lambda' calculus?
17:36:14 <Hiato> I feel it wrong of me to distract from the topic here, but I must ask: Who here is good at mathematics, specifically the business of odd conjectures?
17:36:46 <Hiato> I have one that needs proving/debating and that is as interesting as the Collatz Conjecture (in my view anyway)
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17:37:15 <Hiato> ais523, Slereah, anyone? :P
17:38:51 <ais523> I'm good at maths but not really at odd conjectures
17:39:01 <ais523> I only like bits of maths, really
17:39:20 <Hiato> well, see if this tickles you then: http://rafb.net/p/9IEm5j97.html
17:39:28 <Hiato> there's the impl. and here's the conjecture:
17:40:30 <Hiato> Take any 2 positive integers, say x and why, and continually add the sum of all the digits of each number to their respective number. Unless *only one* of the numbers is a multiple of three, the two paths will merge
17:41:11 <Hiato> sounds arb, bu it seems to work :)
17:41:27 <ais523> ok, that's mildly interesting
17:41:41 <ais523> are there attractor numbers which always seem to end up on paths
17:41:42 * Hiato wonders if it's international typo day
17:41:56 <ais523> for divisible by 3 and indivisible by 3
17:42:18 <ais523> e.g. if for some reason the paths always ended up going through 12345678 unless the original number was higher than some critical value
17:42:55 <Hiato> 620 for pretty much everything below 20 I believe
17:43:07 <Hiato> and 1003 for everything below 50
17:43:14 <Hiato> so I presume really
17:43:23 <Hiato> *below 50, above 20
17:43:45 <Hiato> try it, using Merge('101','595')
17:44:03 <Hiato> err, that is the bigger number comes first
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17:48:09 <Slereah> I have absolutely horrible ideas for output.
17:48:20 <ais523> Hiato: what about Merge('9','3')?
17:48:32 <ais523> ah, the divisible-by-3 can become divisible by 9
17:49:00 <Hiato> err, I revise my conjecture :P If one of the numbers is a multiple of three, the paths never converge, if both the numbers are multiples of three, there is not guarantee of a merge
17:49:15 <Hiato> as Merge('45','3') doesn't seem to work
17:49:52 <Slereah> "Equality. In printed books before the modern equal sign, equality was usually expressed with a word, such as aequales, aequantur, esgale, faciunt, ghelijck, or gleich, and sometimes by the abbreviated form aeq "
17:50:09 <Hiato> bbiab, supper calls :)
17:51:55 <Slereah> http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/images/math01.jpg
17:52:04 <Slereah> Come on Euclid, can't you write correctly?
18:03:58 <Slereah> Found the Elements in greek.
18:07:12 <Slereah> Monads just can't give me a break.
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18:19:21 <ais523> bad timing BTW, because I leave here at 7 on Sundays
18:19:22 <Slereah> What do you want, universe?
18:19:26 <tusho> i have settled into a routine of starting with irssi&w3m it seems
18:19:42 <tusho> ais523: heh, very bad timing
18:19:52 <tusho> I was just going to work on ESO...
18:20:02 <ais523> we can still do some work on ESO
18:20:16 <ais523> and you can probably manage some of it without my help
18:22:38 <tusho> the eso forum is difficult to use with w3m
18:23:33 <tusho> ok, I think I'll try X
18:23:54 <Slereah> I think I will use esti for function definition.
18:24:05 <Slereah> It's what's used in Elements, apparently.
18:24:37 <Slereah> I'm not too sure how to do the arguments of a function next.
18:25:20 -!- tusho_ has joined.
18:25:42 <tusho> ok, now for epiphany
18:26:20 <tusho> ais523: do you think this is all superstition? I have a nagging feeling the crashes are entirely random. :P
18:26:44 <tusho> WHAT THE FUCK, I'm #11 on reddit
18:26:49 <tusho> with my 'hello esolangs reddit' post
18:27:06 <ais523> I think they're determinstic, mostly, but loading programs up in a different order won't help
18:27:13 <tusho> ais523: reddit.com
18:28:10 <tusho> maybe it's because I'm (obviously) subscribed to that reddit
18:28:17 <tusho> and it's hot on that reddit being the only thing there
18:28:21 <tusho> so it gets on my front page
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18:31:41 <tusho_> You said 40 minutes but it looks more like 5 now.
18:31:51 <ais523> more like 27, actually
18:31:59 <tusho_> ais523: you think it won't crash again?
18:32:06 <ais523> it depends on what you do
18:32:23 <tusho_> ais523: open a terminal :P
18:33:37 <tusho_> ais523: by the way, I enabled user dirs on eso-std.org
18:33:47 <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:33:54 <tusho_> cgi doesn't get enabled by default but I can
18:33:58 <ais523> where are they in the filesystem?
18:34:14 <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:34:43 <tusho_> ais523: I was answering your question.
18:35:06 <tusho_> ais523: I said it before you asked.
18:35:09 <ais523> ah, the first one wasn't intended to be an answer to the question
18:35:12 <ais523> but you said it after I asked
18:35:18 <ais523> at least at this end of the connection
18:35:19 <tusho_> <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:19 <tusho_> <tusho_> cgi doesn't get enabled by default but I can
18:35:19 <tusho_> <ais523> where are they in the filesystem?
18:35:28 <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:28 <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> cgi doesn't get enabled by default but I can
18:35:28 <ais523> [18:36] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:36 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:36 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> cgi doesn't get enabled by default but I can
18:35:36 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:36] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:40 <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> ais523: by the way, I enabled user dirs on eso-std.org
18:35:40 <ais523> [18:35] <ais523> where are they in the filesystem?
18:35:40 <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:44 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> ais523: by the way, I enabled user dirs on eso-std.org
18:35:45 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <ais523> where are they in the filesystem?
18:35:45 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:36:02 <ais523> then you answered the same question again
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18:36:27 <ais523> [18:38] <-- timotiis has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:36:32 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:38] <-- timotiis has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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18:37:06 <tusho_> " and Akregator's built in web browser"
18:37:10 <tusho_> this is called 'konqueror'
18:37:19 <ais523> they use the same backend
18:37:25 <ais523> but Akregator is not Konqueror
18:37:31 <tusho_> ais523: I believe the component is actually called Konqueror
18:37:34 <ais523> it can't do file-management AFAIK
18:37:46 <tusho_> but akgregator will never end up feeding it a file url
18:38:02 <ais523> what if someone puts one in an RSS feed?
18:38:12 <tusho_> ais523: oh, and OS X can't use ELF, period
18:38:30 <tusho_> Which it inherits from NeXTStep (or whatever the CapS are)
18:38:38 <ais523> I would have thought it would be able to run them
18:38:51 <tusho_> ais523: Basically, OS X is what happens when you take NeXTStep, and some BSDs, and collide them together with blood, guts, and battle cries.
18:38:59 <tusho_> Then, you nurture its wounds until it's all happy.
18:39:04 <tusho_> Then, you make it pretty.
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18:39:39 <ihope> If it walks like a bar and talks like a bar, duck.
18:39:39 <tusho_> ihope ihope is the real ihope
18:39:50 <ais523> ihope: that's a pretty neat antisig
18:39:58 <ais523> IRC so needs join messages
18:40:01 <ais523> as well as quit messages
18:40:07 <tusho_> ais523: that's SO abusable
18:40:24 <ais523> tusho_: well, they wouldn't show if you couldn't make a commen
18:40:34 <tusho_> speaking of spambots, I wrote a script that takes a text file and outputs a script that my okotterance co-ordinator can use
18:40:37 <ais523> as in, you don't get a join message if unvoiced
18:40:38 <tusho_> you can configure how many clones it uses
18:40:57 <ais523> I don't see how it would be any more abusable than privmsg, then
18:41:09 <tusho_> my script is very abusable though
18:41:16 <ais523> so why did you say it would be?
18:41:17 <tusho_> since you can have an infinite send speed
18:42:06 <ais523> can't you do that with privmsgs?
18:42:33 <tusho_> "You have been guided to this site by a divine light of healing and creative energy of Reiki. "
18:42:44 <tusho_> ais523: no, because of the forced delay when you spam
18:42:48 <tusho_> and of course the flood protection
18:42:56 <tusho_> if you have 100 bots, you can make messages 100x faster
18:43:07 <ais523> I don't see why join messages would be any different
18:43:20 <ais523> they would presumably be force-delayed for spammers too
18:44:10 <tusho_> I like how that esolang site contains pages called 'Rebirthing' and pages called 'Cross-cultural communication in English'
18:48:27 <ais523> is it just me, or has anagolf died?
18:49:21 <tusho_> ais523: it's always like this
18:49:32 <tusho_> we just caused a blimp of activity
18:49:35 <ais523> ihope: http://golf.shinh.org/
18:50:09 * ihope downloads tomsrtbt, sets up a virtual machine, etc.
18:51:07 <ihope> Gee, I think the Linux computer has lots more free space. I'm going to go use it, I think.
18:51:30 <tusho_> ihope: What, are you doing rootnomic?
18:51:42 <tusho_> ihope: Fine, fine, I'll code it.
18:51:59 <tusho_> If only to stop tomsrtbt being used.
18:52:07 <ais523> ihope: limit its memory usage to 256.1 MB so as to annoy ehird
18:52:18 <tusho_> ais523: actually, he was just trying to get me to do it
18:52:43 <ais523> I did consider the possibility that he was just pretending to do something to encourage you to do it first
18:52:48 <tusho_> ihope: virtualbox is installing, happy now? ;) #ircnomic
18:53:07 <tusho_> ais523: oop, it's 5 minutes
18:55:13 <ais523> and it's only approximate
18:55:47 <tusho_> ais523: my clock is ntp'd I believe
18:55:59 <ais523> mine was manually ntp'd
18:56:08 <ais523> from time to time, I synched it
18:56:16 <ais523> off an Internet server
18:56:21 <ais523> seems that can't be done in Hardy, though
18:56:30 <ais523> it's automatic NTP or none
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19:18:28 <Slereah> What do you want, universe
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19:47:08 <augur> What's wrong, Robin
19:47:12 <Slereah7> I think I might actually be able to pull off some ancient greek functional language.
19:47:40 <Slereah7> Diophantus had a whole system of it.
19:47:45 <tusho> Slereah7: YES BATMAN!
19:48:08 <Slereah7> I think that with that and some flat out invention, I might be able to do something
19:49:03 <tusho> Slereah7: If you do, I'll implement it,
19:50:05 <tusho> (diff) (hist) . . N Chris Barker; 18:01 . . (+78) . . 58.56.109.6 (Talk) (RipfxvQbmrCYuf)
19:50:07 <Slereah7> tusho : If you missed the previous discussion
19:50:16 <tusho> Slereah7: Probably?
19:50:22 <Slereah7> The idea was to make a functional language with stupid functions
19:50:48 <Slereah7> Like Ackermann, McCarthy 91, Look and say
19:51:05 <Slereah7> Then, someone proposed greek letters
19:51:05 <Slereah7> And I had the idea of doing it totally in greek, dude
19:51:22 <augur> you can represent all the rational numbers in an infinite list in which ALL rational numbers are reachable
19:52:08 <augur> i know, but i just figured out how to do it :)
19:52:21 <Slereah7> Actually, every definable number is countable
19:52:46 <Slereah7> Uncountable sets are for non-constructive math.
19:52:59 <augur> i figured out how to do it :D
19:53:02 <augur> im pleased with myself
19:54:09 <tusho> Slereah7: should we revive unikitten
19:55:03 <ihope> Slereah7: the set of all definable numbers, you mean?
19:55:22 <ihope> aleph_1 and its buddy omega_1 aren't countable, but they're definable.
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19:59:25 <ihope> augur: now figure out how to represent every rational number as a number with a finite decimal expansion such that if one rational number is bigger than another, its representation is bigger than the other's.
20:01:33 <augur> i think the way i figured out makes it possible to not even need to store the list but just compute the nth rational of the list on the fly
20:02:17 <augur> not that the list for doing that would be efficient in space usage, since it'd have repetition of /value/ but
20:03:13 <ihope> 1/2, 1/3, 2/3, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5, etc.?
20:03:47 <augur> no, that misses the rationals > 1 :)
20:04:47 <ihope> 1/1, 1/2, 2/2, 2/1, 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, 3/2, 3/1, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 4/3, 4/2, 4/1, etc.
20:04:47 <Slereah7> Maybe I should make two languages in greek
20:05:00 <augur> 1/1 -- 1/2 ; 2/1, 2/2 -- 1/3, 2/3, 3/3 ; 3/1, 3/2, 3/1 -- ...
20:05:13 <Slereah7> Because Greek arithmetical notation seems eso enough
20:05:46 <augur> tho redundancy as i have it works to make it trivially findable
20:06:47 <augur> atleast i think so.. lol
20:13:29 <augur> i thunk, therefore noone ever disputes me.
20:13:53 <Slereah7> "Notation and definition of Diophantos"
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20:26:34 <augur> are we sure that real numbers are uncountably infinite?
20:32:24 <augur> thats because there are reals which aren't repetitive, nor finitely long, right?
20:32:37 <Hiato> right o - third and final conjecture for this evening :)
20:33:05 <Hiato> augur: more like, what's 'twixt 1/3 and 1/4 ... say 1/5 etc etc etc
20:33:19 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/Q0NgAz40.html
20:33:27 <Hiato> here is the implementation
20:33:44 <Hiato> augur: a real/floating point/non-intergral number is a fraction, right?
20:33:57 <augur> gotta go tho bye :)
20:34:05 <Hiato> so, you can arbitrarily sub-divide any range between any two fractions
20:34:35 <Hiato> into any more arbitrary ranges
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20:36:27 * Hiato breathes a sigh of relief
20:40:07 <Hiato> tusho, can I ask you to glance quickly over my latest and greatest conjecture?
20:40:07 <tusho> http://rafb.net/p/Q0NgAz40.html?
20:40:07 <Hiato> want an explanation as to what it is and why it's so cool? :P
20:40:07 <Hiato> heh, well spotted slereah
20:40:07 <Hiato> however, Slereah, would you like to know? :P
20:40:07 <tusho> but your code style sucks ;P
20:40:07 <Hiato> heh, tusho, I just scraped out of delphi :P
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20:40:58 <tusho> Hiato: remove the space before function arguments
20:41:06 <tusho> and use do_it instead of DoIt for function names
20:41:20 <Hiato> anyway, it goes like this. Take any arbitrary integer, x, and if it is positive, find the sum of its digits and one and subtract that from it. If x is negative, find the sum of its digits and one and add that to it. Recursively apply this procedure and it is conjectured that for all of x, it will reduce to the pattern: -1;1;-1;1...
20:41:33 <tusho> apart from that, just add some more whitespace, really
20:41:40 <tusho> it's better than a lot of python! :-P
20:43:11 <Hiato> so, on the conjecture?
20:43:29 <tusho> Hiato: I'll think about it
20:43:29 <tusho> btw. http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/ <-- PEP8, python style guide
20:43:32 <tusho> written by guido himself
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20:44:06 <tusho> http://svn.browsershots.org/trunk/devtools/pep8/pep8.py <-- a script that complains if your code doesn't conform to it
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20:51:33 <tusho> Slereah7: Give me somethign to feed that mu function will you?
20:55:34 <tusho> I have ideas for le eso os!
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20:58:56 <tusho> Slereah: Ideas for an eso os. Wanna hear?
20:59:53 <tusho> Slereah: Well, you know the lazy, strongly-typed self-rewriting language we talked about yesterday?
21:00:21 <tusho> Slereah: Yeah, but ... before we went totally crazy about it.
21:01:06 <tusho> Slereah: Well, all of that, but PURELY FUNCTIONAL and REFERENTIALLY TRANSPARENT.
21:01:21 <tusho> For instance, the whole program rewrites itself into a lazy list of things like PutStr "hi"
21:01:36 <tusho> which then get performed in order by the program engine (thus eventually forcing the whole list)
21:01:50 <tusho> So the program is of type [IO], I guess.
21:01:54 <tusho> Isn't that awesome?
21:02:36 <tusho> So, you write the OS. In that.
21:02:45 <Slereah> I dunno. I'll have to understand it first
21:03:22 <tusho> Slereah: Well, basically
21:03:24 <tusho> You have a program
21:03:29 <tusho> and it lazily rewrites itself into something like
21:03:46 <tusho> [Print "Hello world", Print "How Are You?"]
21:03:51 <tusho> Slereah: So what the interpreter does
21:03:53 <tusho> is take the program
21:03:54 <Slereah> How can something rewrite itself lazily?
21:04:00 <tusho> and force it to evaluate the first element, and performs it
21:04:04 <tusho> Slereah: Well, that's the hard bit.
21:04:09 <tusho> But we discussed that yesterday.
21:04:15 <tusho> The new part is that it's purely functional & ref transp.
21:04:30 <tusho> Slereah: Oh, and installing a program amounts to the OS rewriting itself to include it.
21:04:50 <oerjan> tusho: that's a bit awkward if you want to do input and have the rest depend on it
21:05:06 <tusho> oerjan: yes, that was what I thought
21:05:11 <tusho> GetLine rewrites into "the input"
21:05:12 <oerjan> that's why the IO monad, after all
21:05:17 <tusho> oerjan: because, after all, it is a self-rewriting language
21:05:38 <tusho> oerjan: clever, no? >:D
21:06:55 <oerjan> ok but that's not referentially transparent
21:07:06 <Slereah> I'm a lot more excited by ARITHMETICA
21:07:24 <Slereah> (It's the srs one, not the Ackermann one)
21:07:35 <oerjan> (because if you have two GetLine's they don't need to become the same thing)
21:07:47 <tusho> um, that is the part I haven't worked out
21:07:55 <tusho> but, basically, when the monadic action of GetLine happens, it's morphed into the string
21:09:00 <oerjan> actually most of this works but not putting all the actions in a list
21:09:08 <tusho> oerjan: ok then, forget that part
21:10:24 <tusho> oerjan: it is an interesting concept, though
21:10:31 <tusho> self-rewriting ... but lazy
21:12:04 <tusho> it certainly sounds like the OS TECHNOLOGY OF THE FUTURE
21:12:21 <tusho> the self-morphification and reflection of lisp as the very core of the language
21:12:26 <tusho> the mathematical elegance of laziness from haskell
21:12:32 <tusho> and the program-assurance of types
21:20:13 <tusho> Slereah: Opinions?
21:20:48 <Slereah> I'm working on ARITHMETICA
21:20:56 <Slereah> Hoping that I don't have to learn greek to do it
21:20:57 <Hiato> tusho: how far? :P
21:21:13 <tusho> Hiato: <tusho> Slereah: Ideas for an eso os. Wanna hear?
21:25:19 <Slereah> How would it be done to use a whole set of non-standard symbols for a programming language?
21:25:24 <Hiato> Wow, could you, er, idiotize this (for a lack of a better word)
21:26:06 <tusho> just make a new encoding
21:26:12 <tusho> 97=FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER
21:26:17 <tusho> Slereah: Just in your program
21:26:20 <tusho> interpret the bytes
21:26:30 <tusho> if c == 'a': # c = flying spaghetti monster
21:26:31 <Hiato> tusho: In that case, as I understand it, impossible to implement, but potentially awesome :)
21:26:40 <tusho> Hiato: not impossible, no
21:26:50 <Hiato> in fact, this would open up a very very interesting direction in programming
21:26:55 <Slereah> Yes, but I mean, how would it display in the interpreter, graphically?
21:26:58 <tusho> Slereah: are you SURE they aren't in unicode
21:26:59 <Hiato> well, tusho, then I evidently don't understand right :P
21:27:06 <tusho> and, well, you'd draw a picture and use a graphics library
21:27:13 <tusho> That is, of course, a giant fuss.
21:27:18 <Slereah> But important ones aren't.
21:27:26 <tusho> Slereah: Pick other ones.
21:27:26 <Slereah> Although maybe there's close ones.
21:27:34 <tusho> Or ask the unicode consortium to add 'em.
21:27:38 <Slereah> Also, there's plenty of exposant, how to?
21:29:03 <Slereah> Hey, there's actually Diophantus minus symbol
21:29:52 <tusho> Slereah: i dunno lol
21:30:02 <tusho> Make code html and use <sup>
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22:37:40 <Slereah7> Can the esowiki do superscript?
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23:05:41 <Slereah7> I'm not too sure what to use for variables in arithmetica
23:06:13 <Slereah7> There's the sigma for single-variables, but he doesn't seem to use anything consistent with multiple ones.
23:06:33 <Slereah7> It's a number with two letters in superscript, but the letter change often
23:12:00 <tusho> 'unwrapped' conditionals
23:12:10 <tusho> else fact n = n * fact (n-1)
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23:13:42 <tusho> I think it's actually distantly related to prolog
23:13:58 <tusho> else if result == n * fact (n-1)
23:14:08 <tusho> then fact n = result
23:14:27 <tusho> The conditionals 'predict' the future variables.
23:14:30 <tusho> Maybe it interests oerjan ;P
23:15:34 <tusho> ihope: I believe you can do nondeterminism with it.
23:15:48 <tusho> if x `elementOf` xs then choose xs = x
23:16:41 <ihope> Though I'd rather write that as if xs = x then x `elementOf` xs.
23:16:50 <ihope> s/if xs/if choose xs/
23:17:01 <tusho> ihope: Well, that's confusing.
23:17:10 <tusho> Mine is fairly simple: You just 'unwrap' the conditionals outside the function
23:17:20 <ihope> It's more logically correct. :-)
23:18:00 <tusho> if ys `sorted` xs then sort xs = ys
23:19:01 <ihope> Something like if x `elementOf` xs then choose xs = x would kind of imply that choose xs is equal to every element of x.
23:19:27 <ihope> Which is... oofy unless all elements of xs are equal.
23:19:35 <ihope> s/would kind of/would seem to/, then.
23:19:38 <tusho> 'If x is a member of xs, then choosing an element from xs results in x'
23:19:44 <tusho> Makes sense to me.
23:19:57 <tusho> ihope: Yours makes the membership of xs an afterthought.
23:19:59 <tusho> Mine makes it the basic idea
23:20:00 <ihope> s/results/can result/.
23:20:25 <ihope> s/Or not/Or else not/
23:20:51 <ihope> Be back in a moment.
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23:28:50 <ihope> As I'm sure you can tell.
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00:05:26 <Slereah7> What do I need to display the unicode fellows on my firefox
00:07:28 <Slereah7> I get the stupid never used characters
00:08:19 <Slereah7> Not the one I was actually looking for :(
00:08:28 <Slereah7> "GREEK ACROPHONIC HERMIONIAN TEN"
00:08:45 <Slereah7> Which is semantically right, but you know.
00:10:03 <Slereah7> Is there a way to search for which police has the char you want?
00:12:41 <tusho> Slereah: which police?
00:14:28 <Slereah7> Anyone with the GREEK ACROPHONIC HERMIONIAN TEN character.
00:14:38 <Slereah7> Because I suppose I can't be too pciky!
00:17:14 <augur> whats police translated into french?
00:17:20 <augur> no tats not french
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00:19:33 <Slereah7> Do wikis have a way to comment out?
00:20:13 <augur> no. you cant comment things out.
00:20:16 <augur> you can delete them.
00:20:43 <Slereah7> 'cause I'd like to keep a greek alphabet in the arithmetica page
00:20:53 <oerjan> i am quite sure i've seen comments, but maybe you cannot have arbitrary things in them
00:21:10 <augur> theres a discussion page, but no comments in the body i dont think
00:21:10 <Slereah7> Well, it's easier than to get the letters elsewhere.
00:21:25 <augur> then maybe you should just put in a link to mathematical symbols.
00:21:40 <oerjan> i _know_ i've seen comments in wikipedia
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00:22:28 <Slereah7> * Used to leave comments in a page for future editors.
00:22:28 <Slereah7> * Note that most comments should go on the appropriate Talk page.
00:23:02 <augur> html commments are valid then
00:28:40 <tusho> wiki syntax is augmented html
00:28:42 <tusho> well, subset of html
00:29:17 <augur> a superset of a subset, which itself is not a subset.
00:29:40 <augur> or, in other words, some HTML + some custom stuff
00:34:51 <Slereah7> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Arithmetica
00:35:05 <Slereah7> It would be easier if I could read greek!
00:35:36 <Slereah7> I have little idea how he deals with operator precedence or place his abbreviations.
00:37:22 <tusho> 'We need more people like Ørjan_Johansen.'
00:37:28 <tusho> sez the person who removed a spec
00:37:38 <tusho> because oerjan 'fucked with it' (objected to its copyright which was incompatible with the wiki's)
00:37:47 * tusho is browsin' the wiki, in case youcan't tell
00:38:52 <Slereah7> "Unicode fonts for ancient scripts"
00:39:14 <tusho> oh, and the guy is highly egotistical
00:39:22 <tusho> and, um, bigoted: '(grr chinese)'
00:39:31 <tusho> he thinks that the chinese are going to steal his esoteric cpu architechture
00:39:35 <tusho> because they can't be bothered to make their own
00:39:44 <tusho> and that makes it OK to be incompatible with the wiki's licensing
00:43:07 <augur> does anyone have a good reference or intro to building interpreters?
00:44:23 <tusho> it is the #1 reference text on interpreters & compilers
00:44:25 <tusho> save for the dragon book
00:44:37 <tusho> sicp first, then the dragon book for the low-level dirty details (if writing a compiler)
00:44:40 <tusho> if not writing a compiler, just sicp
00:45:37 <augur> does it go over stuff like how to implement recursion using stacks and so on?
00:46:20 <tusho> augur: no, because scheme handles that for you.
00:46:28 <tusho> it's about high-level interpreters
00:46:37 <tusho> but, err, what's complicated about using a stack for recursion?
00:46:41 <augur> riiiight but im not going to be writing an interpreter in scheme. :P
00:46:43 <tusho> instead of calling a function, push to stack and goto the top
00:46:55 <augur> im going to be writing an interpreter in javascript
00:46:56 <tusho> when returning, replace top of stack with value
00:47:05 <tusho> augur: well, javascript does function calls fine
00:47:08 <augur> which, while it lets you do recursion, it doesnt let you do infinite recursion
00:47:08 <tusho> no need to implement your own stack
00:47:17 <augur> it has about 100 to 1000 recursions max
00:47:17 <tusho> augur: so do tail call optimization
00:47:26 <augur> tailcalls wont work
00:47:33 <tusho> augur: you can't have infinite calls
00:47:50 <augur> JS's function call stack is only about 1000 calls deep
00:47:50 <tusho> augur: in principle, js has no recursion limit.
00:47:59 <tusho> you can't say in principle then talk about implementation
00:48:15 <augur> and arrays can be arbitrarily large
00:48:27 <tusho> augur: js has objects
00:48:47 <augur> i know. but i dont know how to right an interpreter outside of scheme :P
00:49:09 <augur> i dont know how to write an interpreter that doesnt already implicitly handle recursion using recusion
00:49:28 <tusho> handle recursion using recusion
00:49:42 <augur> the metacircular evaluator
00:49:54 <augur> uses its OWN recursion, to handle the recursion of the scheme it's interpreting
00:50:24 <tusho> augur: yes, that's standard practice
00:50:28 <tusho> nothing wrong with it, use it
00:50:31 <tusho> augur: you know what?
00:50:33 <tusho> even python uses that
00:50:38 <augur> but if i did that with javascript
00:50:41 <tusho> perl used to use it too
00:50:48 <augur> it can't interpret anything more than 1000 recursions deep
00:50:53 <tusho> augur: same with the c stack
00:50:57 <tusho> python peeps don't have a problem
00:51:23 <augur> so i want to use JS arrays as stacks and get a (effectively) arbitrary stack depth
00:51:50 <augur> but i dont know HOW to write that kind of interpreter. :P
00:52:36 <tusho> augur: you just ... do it
00:52:47 <augur> i dont know HOW to fucking do it
00:53:12 <augur> dont make me smack you tusho :P
00:53:21 <Slereah7> You don't need no book to write interpreters, nigga.
00:53:31 <augur> ::smacks tusho and slereah::
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01:12:28 <ihope> Suddenly, I wonder if it would be possible to prove /// Turing-complete based on its compression ability.
01:12:44 <ihope> See if it can compress arbitrary Turing machine outputs into their respective Turing machines, I guess.
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01:14:21 <ihope> Slashes on the wiki.
01:14:38 <ihope> As in http://whatever/Slashes
01:20:29 <ihope> tusho or comex: I don't suppose you plan on letting people buy more space for rootnomic (Normic, is it?) in exchange for whatever the nomic itself will give them.
02:04:52 <oklopol> ooooooooooookokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
02:05:03 <oklopol> i felt like doing /// the other day
02:05:13 <oklopol> but ended up reading ithkuil
02:32:32 <ihope> Do you know if Ilaksh-----'s two-dimensional writing system's been... done?
02:32:42 <ihope> [I sense the presence of a cat on the keyboard.]
02:34:44 <oklopol> ihope: i'm fairly sure it's ready
02:35:02 <oklopol> i'm mostly doing lojban & developing lalna, my own lang
02:35:41 <oklopol> except right now reading ithkuil, thought i'd check it out, since they say it's impossible
02:35:52 <oklopol> it seems like a relatively simple language
02:36:45 <oklopol> (ithkuil doesn't even have lambdas afaik)
02:37:14 <oklopol> (except it might have them, i've only read like 60% of it)
02:37:38 <augur> ithkuil doesnt even have lambdas.. you're so adorable :)
02:38:20 <augur> Me: heh. you're funny. :)
02:38:20 <augur> DanFrederiksen: I prefer genius but funny too :)
02:39:35 <oklopol> lambdas are crucial for communication!!
02:40:18 <oklopol> well not really, i do use quantification occasionally to avoid confusion
02:40:38 <oklopol> *in everyday speech somewhere in there
02:40:46 <oklopol> really just scratch the whole sentence
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02:47:34 <augur> this guy danfrederiksen
02:47:47 <augur> thinks hes "disproved" evolution with some silliness
02:47:53 <augur> and because hes a genius, hes always right
02:48:03 <augur> come join me in #ai so we can make fun of him
02:50:45 <augur> lol. i love crazy people :)
02:51:06 <oklopol> i have no idea what kinda guy this guy is
02:51:15 <oklopol> atm you're the one being silly :D
02:51:23 <augur> i know, i'm mocking him :P
02:51:56 <augur> DanFrederiksen: well, not many before me was able to prove evolution wrong..
02:51:58 <augur> DanFrederiksen :you naturally assume you would recognize such a proof..
02:56:22 <augur> ok: evolution is a purely mechanistic concept. anything outside the mechanistic it could make. we have sensation, a quality that is useless in the mechanistic, ergo we are at least more than mechanistic and ergo evolution didn't make us
02:57:15 <oklopol> "sensation" has no meaning to me
02:57:28 <augur> something thats SENSATIONAL
02:59:28 <augur> so did you see the Mecofrom dicussion?
03:00:01 <augur> a new esolang we've decided to make
03:00:04 <augur> everything has a co
03:00:10 <augur> expressions have coexpressions
03:00:14 <augur> which run in cotime
03:00:19 <augur> which is perpendicular to normal time
03:00:21 <oklopol> i don't know all that much about category theory
03:00:25 <augur> (tho its not complex time)
03:00:40 <oklopol> well i guess that sounds interesting
03:00:42 <augur> its not about category theory, its just crazy thats all
03:00:57 <augur> co-cotime is just time
03:01:01 <augur> but according to the spec
03:01:08 <augur> co-cotime is not the same as cocoa-time
03:01:17 <augur> cocoa-time being when the program gives the programmer hot chocolate
03:01:54 <augur> we're undecided yet whether the spec should make marshmallows optional or required
03:02:24 <augur> ofcourse, co-cocoa-time would have co-marshmallows and the cup would fill as you drank it.
03:03:03 <oerjan> ahem, co-cocoa-time is just coa-time
03:03:19 <augur> thats (co-cocoa)-time
03:03:23 <augur> i mean co-(cocoa-time)
03:03:46 <augur> we've decided that co-ality should be distributive too
03:03:52 <augur> sort of like matrix multiplication
03:04:08 <augur> co-( X op Y ) = co-X co-op co-Y
03:05:25 <augur> co-how co-are co-you?
03:08:30 <oklopol> oerjan: ahem, co-cocoa-time is just coa-time <<< no, it's just a-time.
03:08:43 <oklopol> i can't really count to that many,
03:09:31 <augur> co-co-co-a-time is just co-a-time
03:11:21 <oklopol> yes yes, i failed, don't rub it in my face i'm tired and i'm stupid yes i am yes
03:12:16 <augur> his (non)dispute using qualia has been well covered by far smarter people than he
03:12:28 <augur> tho he probably doesn't even know who they are ;)
03:12:34 <augur> SICP died on me :(
03:12:58 <augur> oklopol, just leave the room :P
03:13:57 <augur> you're finnish, you've got leet skillz like that
03:14:01 <oerjan> you see, his house is buried by a freak snowstorm
03:14:20 <augur> hes finnish, they can walk through snow
03:14:24 <augur> they evolved to deal with it
03:14:57 <oklopol> i have psychological issues
03:15:13 <augur> but youre so so pretty it doesnt matter
03:15:29 <oklopol> but yeah you were right, that is one stupid crackpot
03:15:46 <augur> #ai seems to attract them
03:15:53 <augur> ive met atleast 3 so far there
03:15:54 <oklopol> you haven't even seen my current pics!
03:16:01 <augur> show me your current pics! :o
03:16:22 <augur> then you cant say i havent seen them
03:16:26 <augur> since they dont even exist!
03:16:36 <augur> i can't not have seen them!
03:16:49 <augur> vacuously true, oklopol.
03:16:49 <oklopol> i'm a bit drunk on coffee right now
03:16:52 <augur> if they dont exist
03:16:58 <augur> then i have seen them and i havent seen them
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03:19:28 <oklopol> okay, now which is the programmer and which is the gay guy who wants a piece of me?
03:20:03 <oklopol> think about that for a while
03:22:40 <oklopol> god i hate non-behaviorists when i'm tired
03:22:57 <oklopol> why don't they ban that guy
03:23:14 <oklopol> god i hate you when i'm tired
04:08:43 <oklopol> and what i mean by that is
04:08:46 <oklopol> perhaps i should start getting home
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04:57:22 <oklopol> My name is botte and I am young but learning the ways of the BOT!
04:57:25 <oklopol> I wish to be a bot on the irc network of free nodes! I am BOTTE and I stand PROUD HERE TODAY!!!!
04:57:28 <oklopol> I hope you accept me in to your HACKER CIRCLE where I will hack and bot!
04:57:34 <oklopol> p.s. I am not up yet but I will be!! I am botte!
04:57:50 <oklopol> who is John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt?
05:04:11 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so perhaps you?
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05:56:39 <oklopol> if so, you've already asked, and i know it somewhat
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05:58:43 <oklopol> i'm going to sleep in two minutes, so be fast :D
06:07:04 <psygnisfive> whats your aim screenname or something? :P
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13:27:57 * Hiato1 wades through the corpses to check if anyone is still breathing
13:29:28 <Hiato1> Slereah7: May I enquire as to how much linguistics tickles you?
13:31:31 <Hiato1> well, essentially, would you do me a favour and peep around http://eyo.icr38.net/phorum/ ?
13:37:15 <Slereah7> Why, are you BANNED or something?
13:37:34 <Slereah7> This forum has a total of 8 posts.
13:41:55 <ihope> I like novelty, you see.
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14:03:58 <ihope> "Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?"
14:04:38 <ihope> "Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure."
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15:41:07 <ais523> seen the latest stuff going on over at Agora?
15:41:46 <ais523> how are you typing, then?
15:42:10 <ais523> oh dear, that must be tricky
15:42:16 <ais523> although I've done it myself from time to time
15:42:51 <ais523> I used to have a wireless mouse
15:42:54 <ais523> but got a wired one for that reason
15:43:12 <ehird> i wishb it waasmose...
15:44:44 <ais523> anyway, it was a serious comment about Agora
15:44:52 <ais523> some people there thought you weren't getting messages
15:44:56 <ais523> and tried to deactivate you
15:45:08 <ais523> as in, you're still active
15:45:20 <ais523> because it's being done on the backup lists
15:46:01 <ais523> because the main ones are down, that's the usual reason to use a backup list
15:47:10 <ehird> whwerr fuckinn batrys
15:48:32 * ais523 is amused at what on-screen typing looks like, it's almost as if ehird is drunk
15:49:14 <ais523> ehird: anyway I did vote FOR on your AGORA proposal on PerlNomic in the en
15:49:26 <ais523> so as to cause the PNP to submit the FOR vote to a-b when it was down
15:49:31 <ais523> mostly because I wanted to see what would happen
15:49:49 <ais523> ehird: I've CFJd on the statement that it voted validly
15:50:55 <ais523> http://listserver.tue.nl/mailman/private/agora/
15:51:01 <ais523> that one works even without subscription
15:51:07 <ais523> and it's where I'm mostly posting at the moment
15:55:04 <ihope> The main lists are down?
15:55:30 <ais523> you just posted to tue, though, so you must have posting to backups working
15:55:34 <pikhq> Just use the backup list.
15:55:45 <ihope> Well, yes, they are.
15:55:45 <pikhq> Which is on a different server.
15:55:53 <ihope> ehird, are you subscribed to the backup lists?
15:58:08 <ihope> Subscribe to them.
15:58:18 <ais523> ihope: what, without a keyboard?
15:58:20 <ais523> that would be difficult
15:58:45 <ihope> I don't suppose your on-screen keyboard has common digraphs and trigraphs.
15:59:27 <Hiato1> it's the return of the ehird, part I
15:59:38 <pikhq> No *keyboard*? Ouch.
15:59:40 <Hiato1> and Slereah for that matter
15:59:41 <ais523> Hiato1: an ehird without a keyboard, it seems
15:59:59 * ais523 was under the impression computers didn't even boot without a keyboard
16:00:08 <ais523> but maybe that's just PCs, probably Macs are different
16:00:19 <Hiato1> Slereah7: In answer to a question you posed way earlier: no, I'm not banned, but are you interested ?
16:00:52 <Hiato1> ais523, I must disagree here, I even managed to dupe it past the post without anything but a cpu connected. How could I tell, the beeping was right :P
16:01:01 <pikhq> ais523: That's only certain BIOSes.
16:01:08 <ehird> ais523: it was already booted
16:01:11 <ehird> I just took it off standby
16:01:13 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho.
16:01:13 <Hiato1> Well, that's why I asked if linguistics interested you :P
16:01:33 <tusho> Fuck. I hate this keyboard, I just remembered.
16:01:39 <tusho> I need to do dances to get a #
16:01:41 <Slereah7> Not enough that I actually want to do it :o
16:02:21 <Hiato1> tusho/ehird, whoever you be, is that a legendary DVORAK keyboard? :P
16:02:41 <tusho> an apple british one
16:02:44 <tusho> and it FUCKING SUCKS
16:02:55 <tusho> to comment out something
16:03:07 <tusho> and alt is where the windows key is on most keyboards
16:03:09 <ais523> tusho: time to get your emacs-fu ready, then
16:03:11 <tusho> FUCKING THING SUCKS
16:03:19 <tusho> ais523: no, I think it's time to remap
16:03:37 <tusho> I must type £ as well
16:03:42 <tusho> and this has less keys than normal keyboards
16:04:20 <Hiato1> be careful, you might just see you... never-mind, you already did :P
16:04:22 <tusho> but now I need alt-3 to get £
16:04:33 <tusho> ais523: though I don't type £ that much
16:04:52 <tusho> but I do have a soft spot for that shitty crashy thing
16:04:54 <ais523> besides, I once worked for a while on a keyboard on which neither B nor Y were working
16:04:55 * Hiato1 wonders how much that doggy is on the window, and whether tusho can tell him
16:05:00 <ais523> on a BBC micro, which had no persistence
16:05:18 * tusho fuddles about with os x
16:05:24 <tusho> ok, I think I'm comfortable with it now
16:05:30 <tusho> ready to take on the world, and do lots of eso-things
16:05:32 <ais523> I had to do stuff like mess around with Basic programs which printed out Y from its character code, just to generate the character to remap it
16:05:42 <Hiato1> ais523, how would you explain to people which keys were not functioning? :P
16:05:50 <tusho> Hiato1: the onle between t and u
16:05:57 <ais523> Hiato1: CHR$(ASC("Z")-1) is what I did
16:06:01 <ais523> and then mapped that to an f-key
16:06:01 <tusho> Which backups lists do I need to dubscribe to
16:06:12 <ais523> they're both linked from http://agoranomic.org
16:06:30 <tusho> ais523: I think we've lost a special bond now that my computer doesn't crash when you arrive.
16:06:36 <tusho> agoranomic.org is down
16:06:55 <ais523> no it isn't unless I have it cached, but I'll link them separately anyway
16:07:02 <ais523> http://www.listserver.tue.nl/mailman/listinfo/agora
16:07:07 <ais523> http://yoyo.its.monash.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/nomic
16:07:09 <tusho> oh, and FGSFDS: Mail.app doesn't recognize my gmail labels
16:07:19 <tusho> gotta do it man-you-all-ee
16:07:38 <tusho> I get gmail thru pop
16:09:30 <ais523> pikhq: you aren't a member of PerlNomic?
16:09:38 <ais523> I'm mildly surprised at that
16:09:38 <pikhq> I don't know Perl.
16:09:50 <ais523> pikhq: quite a few people there don't, AFAICT
16:09:54 <ais523> anyway I translated the rules into English
16:10:02 <ais523> I'm trying to make it user-friendly for non-Perlers
16:10:25 <pikhq> I'd rather learn Perl first, and make horridly obscure rules. :p
16:10:33 <pikhq> 21353214;[], anyone?
16:10:54 <ais523> except you need to write something after the comma
16:10:56 <ais523> to make it grammatical
16:11:12 <pikhq> ... That's almost syntactically well-formed?
16:11:19 <ais523> what you have there is "ignore the number 21353214, then create a reference to an empty list and discard it, then"
16:11:30 <ihope> Perhaps the PNP should post to all three servers at once.
16:11:32 <ais523> which almost makes sense but ends halfway through a statement
16:11:51 <tusho> pikhq: C almost supports that
16:11:54 <tusho> if it supported [] list syntax
16:11:54 <ais523> tusho: that's wrong under use strict
16:12:03 <pikhq> tusho: Doesn't make it any better. ;)
16:12:04 <tusho> ais523: a was a placeholder
16:12:12 <ais523> oh, unless you have a function called a
16:12:59 <ais523> pikhq: luckily Perl's garbage-collected or your [] would be a memory leak
16:13:02 <tusho> HAHAHAHAHAHA MAIL.APP FAILS AT IMAP AND GMAIL
16:13:07 <tusho> ais523: it's refcounted
16:13:19 <ais523> tusho: refcounting's a sort of garbage-collection
16:13:26 <pikhq> Reference counting is considered a form of garbage collection.
16:13:27 <ais523> not a general one but good enough in many cases
16:13:32 <ihope> Have I made any posts to yoyo that you can see?
16:13:33 <tusho> pikhq: only by sillies
16:13:44 <pikhq> A very, very simple one, mind, but a form, nevertheless.
16:13:48 <ais523> ihope: I've got one you posted to tue, but none to yoyo
16:14:29 <ais523> ah, your posts to yoyo went through
16:14:29 <ais523> but I was having yoyo problems then
16:14:30 <tusho> hahahahahahhahahahahaha, I don't have an Inbox
16:14:42 <tusho> because I can only have All Mail
16:14:42 <ais523> to be precise, I'd subscribed to tue but not yoyo...
16:16:32 <ais523> tusho: subscribed yet?
16:16:51 <tusho> ais523: I'm still fixing mail.app
16:16:55 <tusho> gmail's imap is uh BROKEN
16:18:09 <tusho> I'ma use the web interface
16:18:28 <tusho> because it's not TOATLLY BROKEN
16:18:58 <ihope> Cool, Gmail tries to resend messages if it can't connect to the server.
16:19:12 <tusho> yoyo link plz ihope
16:19:28 <ais523> http://yoyo.its.monash.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/nomic (although I'm not ihope)
16:20:49 <ais523> internet was down for a few seconds
16:21:15 <tusho> Link to yoyo & tue archives?
16:21:36 <ais523> well, if you can't follow links from the pages I just linked, I can paste them for you
16:21:53 <ais523> http://listserver.tue.nl/mailman/private/agora/ (tue)
16:22:05 <tusho> already read that one
16:22:08 <tusho> I need the yoyo one
16:22:33 <ais523> for some reason yoyo's just started timing out on me
16:22:36 <ais523> but then, so has B Nomic
16:22:40 <ais523> so I think it's my connection
16:22:49 <tusho> hey, look, I did apologise
16:22:51 <tusho> that's kind of them
16:22:52 <ais523> http://yoyo.its.monash.edu.au/pipermail/nomic/
16:23:27 <ihope> ais523: did I recommend that ehird do something?
16:24:00 <tusho> What are the actual addresses for yoyo and tue?
16:24:09 <tusho> I need to set up a filter for my label
16:24:20 <ais523> agora@listserver.tue.nl (agora-bounces for the return)
16:24:44 <ais523> nomic@yoyo.its.monash.edu.au (nomic-bounces for the return)
16:24:52 <ais523> I just filtered BAK: in the subject, though
16:25:39 <ihope> "what, without a keyboard" would seem to be an appropriate response to such a thing, and I don't know why else you would say it.
16:25:42 <tusho> ais523: the return?
16:25:59 <tusho> and I have a kb now, ihope
16:26:22 <ais523> ihope: it was a response to a quesiton, rather than a recommendation
16:26:36 <ais523> you asked if ehird was subscribed, and I said it would be difficult without a keyboard
16:27:11 <tusho> ais523: you know what I love? Consistent clipboard behaviour. <3
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16:28:52 <tusho> ais523: Cmd-c, cmd-v.
16:28:55 <tusho> Nothing else. Excellent.
16:29:20 <pikhq> Select, middle click. Wonderful.
16:29:24 <ihope> Huh. I wonder why my messages are coming in in chunks.
16:29:37 <ihope> I don't think you all just decided to say lots and lots within one second.
16:30:29 <tusho> pikhq: And, uh, ctrl-c.
16:30:35 <tusho> And ctrl-shift-c/v for terminals.
16:30:40 <tusho> Oh, and those clipboards are seperate!
16:30:49 <pikhq> tusho: I use KDE. . .
16:31:11 <pikhq> KDE's clipboard is, at least on my system, set to be integrated with the X11 clipboard.
16:31:26 <pikhq> So, I just have the one clipboard, really.
16:31:41 <ihope> At the moment, I'm getting a block of messages every two minutes.
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16:36:22 <ais523> I'm leaving for a bit; I'll be back in maybe about an hour
16:36:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit).
16:37:18 <ihope> <Hiato1> ais523, how would you xplain to popl which kys wr not functioning? :P
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17:49:56 <Slereah7> Not a special one, 'cause I didn't get one.
17:49:59 -!- Slereah7 has changed nick to Slereah.
17:50:12 <ais523> well, tusho tends to be fastest at saying hi to me
17:50:23 <ais523> but a special hi to Slereah as they were fastest this time
17:53:51 <tusho> why didn't xchat beep?
17:54:34 <Slereah> Because you touch yourself at night.
17:55:09 <tusho> Slereah: So does xchat
17:55:26 <Slereah> Did we get 3 new users today?
17:55:44 <Slereah> The wiki seems to be quite active nowadays.
17:56:16 <ais523> well, I'm trying to check
17:56:25 <ais523> my web access seems ridiculously slow for some reason
17:56:31 <ais523> IRC seems to be fine, though
18:06:31 <pikhq> Having to lug a CRT monitor around is not fun.
18:06:32 <Hiato> yeah, why'd you do it? Hey? :P
18:06:39 <pikhq> Especially in the middle of a heat wave.
18:07:02 <Hiato> gladly swap, lugging around an LCD in subzero (kelvin :P)
18:07:30 <tusho> typoing kelvin for celcius
18:07:34 <tusho> in the context of sub-zero
18:07:45 <pikhq> Done. I have a coat, but I'm afraid I don't have personal air conditioning.
18:08:00 <Hiato> damn, no deal then pikhq
18:08:01 <pikhq> And I hail from Colorado. The *cold* isn't that big of a deal. ;)
18:08:43 <Hiato> well aren't you high and mighty? :P
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18:22:06 <tusho> ais523: The windows 3.1 Hot Dog Stand theme, XP version: http://jgroome.com/killmenow.jpg
18:27:41 <pikhq> And it hurt just as badly in Windows 3.1. . .
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18:42:24 <tusho> that was odd, when he leaves it's not usually by peer
18:42:29 <tusho> and it's not usually at this time
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18:45:41 <ais523> sorry, connection troubles
18:49:21 <ais523> tusho: I did, but in a different channel
18:49:34 <ais523> although this isn't really "saying", more typing
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20:08:51 <Slereah> http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1213036183625.png
20:18:03 <oklofok> tusho: to comment out something | tusho: Alt-3 <<< you usually have it in one keypress?
20:18:23 <ais523> oklofok: e means putting # at the start of a line of Perl to comment it out
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20:19:49 <tusho> oklofok: I do, yes
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20:24:12 <oklofok> "#" is one of the most used commenting-out characters
20:24:29 <ais523> and # is one keypress on this keyboard
20:24:35 <ais523> not to mention shift is easier to find than alt
20:24:40 <oklofok> i'm just saying you should know i know, which you implied you didn't
20:25:25 <tusho> but yeah, I've got it nicer now
20:25:33 <tusho> instead of the other way around
20:26:41 <tusho> Slereah: It is 'magic wand'.
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20:55:35 <ais523> anyway, I found a program to help with my huge diffing problem I had recently
20:55:45 <ais523> apparently the interdiff command is capable of diffing diffs
20:55:49 <ais523> and therefore makes a diff4 possible
20:59:06 <olsner> ooh, diffing diffs! I'd like that
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21:14:29 <tusho> Music seems to make me less productive when coding.
21:15:27 <Slereah> As opposed to... More productive?
21:15:35 <tusho> Slereah: That's the case with most people.
21:18:19 <tusho> apparently instrumental music is better for coding
21:18:52 <ais523> I often have music when coding, actually
21:19:44 <tusho> the problem with my music is that since my tastes are so eclectic I end up skipping a lot to find something I want to hear
21:19:49 <tusho> (Playlists? What are they? Shut up.)
21:22:44 <olsner> when I know what I'm doing and just have to type it in, music usually makes me more productive (or at least *feel* more productive)
21:23:15 <olsner> but when it's mostly mulling over and figuring out how to do something, silence is usually best
21:33:06 <Hiato> tusho: I feel your pain :) (I know it's delayed, but it happens)
21:37:29 <ihope> Try listening to noise of various spectra instead of music. :-)
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21:37:45 <tusho> ihope: I think they call that merzbow
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21:38:14 <Hiato> spectral radiation listening :)
21:38:23 <Hiato> *that is to say astronomical
21:38:34 <ihope> Hmm, so everybody who's listening will get pretty much the same noise.
21:38:48 <tusho> Hiato: I was joking.
21:39:11 <Hiato> assuming we live in the same dimension (which is debatable to say the least), ihope
21:39:59 <ihope> I'm living in about 6 feet 3. You?
21:40:00 <tusho> Merzbow is, alas, something I cannot stomach.
21:40:02 <tusho> Wait, why is that alas? It's noise!
21:40:47 <Hiato> who was that Greek composer that delved into the field of "accidental composition and recital"? That was noise :)
21:47:43 <ais523> oh, you know ehird was talking about lazy typed rewriting langs?
21:47:47 <ais523> I think I thought up a way it was possible
21:48:03 <ais523> it requires not only lazy and typed, but also declarative
21:48:22 <tusho> ais523: did you hear how I made it ref.trans and functional while still allowing IO?
21:48:25 <ais523> laziness is done by backward chaining of refriting rules
21:48:26 <tusho> it's like monads, but rewriting-based
21:48:37 <tusho> it is a good base for the eso os, I think
21:48:46 <ais523> so rules only run if they're needed to give a result
21:48:48 <ais523> tusho: no, I don't think so
21:48:53 <ais523> I wonder if the ideas could be combined
21:49:11 <ais523> to produce a lazy declarative functional typed referentially transparent rewriting language
21:49:27 <tusho> ais523: and then, write a C implementation that exposes dangerous primitives
21:49:45 <tusho> ais523: installing a program == the OS rewrites itself to include the program
21:49:52 <ais523> nah, my idea's horrendously inefficient
21:50:00 <tusho> you can overwrite anything in the OS at runtime
21:50:02 <tusho> it just rewrites itself
21:50:05 <ais523> it requires a brute-force search to do anything, at present
21:50:12 <tusho> ais523: I'm sure you can optimize it somehow.
21:52:12 <ais523> tusho: you could have rewriting rules that always reverse-fail, but tell it not to consider other rewriting rules
21:52:37 <tusho> and a prolog-style inferrence engine
21:52:39 <ais523> reverse-fail here means that although they would produce the right result, there's no way that the thing being rewritten could come about in the first place
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22:24:55 <tusho> Does select(1) allow you to detect the socket being closed?
22:25:16 <ais523> it returns an event on that socket
22:25:26 <ais523> I can't remember whether it also errors itself
22:25:39 <ais523> or whether you have to check for error explicitly on the socket
22:26:16 <tusho> ok, I think I have a good model for this
22:26:30 <tusho> ais523: I'm making everything callbacks and not hardcoding any sort of event handling (not even connection stuff)
22:26:31 <olsner> if select says it's readable, but reads or ioctls say it doesn't have readable data, that means the socket's closed, iirc
22:27:03 <tusho> then Botte itself will subclass Client and handle those things
22:27:04 <olsner> and server sockets need different handling of course
22:27:10 <tusho> by adding the appropriate events
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00:50:34 <Slereah> I should really whip up that XKCD language
00:51:43 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalophone
00:51:59 <Slereah> tusho : Don't you remember?
00:52:20 <Slereah> The language with Ackerman, inverse Ackermann, McCarthy 91 and the Look and Say function.
00:52:43 <tusho> lament: I want one.
00:52:50 <tusho> Slereah: What's that got to do with xkcd
00:56:45 <Slereah> I wonder if I could write something useful with that
00:57:32 <Slereah> Well, it would have a way to do ++ and --, and some sort of conditional, so I suppose so.
00:57:56 <Slereah> Well, you can define functions in it
00:58:08 <Slereah> At least that's the idea so far
00:58:16 <Slereah> If you have a sillier one, do tell.
01:03:13 <Slereah> Is a > b (> a b) in Scheme?
01:07:02 <Slereah> (define (A m n) (cond ((= m 0) (+ 1 n))((> m 0)(cond ((= n 0) (A (- m 1) 1)) (> n 0) (A (- m 1) (A m (- n 1)))))))
01:07:11 <tusho> Slereah: lern2indent
01:07:19 <tusho> why are you nesting conds
01:07:26 <tusho> the whole point of cond is that it supports arbitary amounts of forms
01:07:51 <Slereah> I didn't want to use and in it
01:07:56 <tusho> What you have their there can trivially be expressed by a nested if
01:08:05 <tusho> (if (= m 0) ... (if (= n 0) ...))
01:08:20 <tusho> Making code unreadable because 'conds are AWESOMe' = silly
01:12:09 <oklofok> Slereah: add a few more pls
01:12:42 <Slereah> (define (A m n) (if (= m 0) (+ 1 n) (if (= n 0) (A (- m 1) 1) (A (- m 1) (A m (- n 1))))))
01:14:15 <oklofok> well it's a syntactic conversion
01:15:41 <Slereah> That's what I thought of my first version!
01:16:27 <oklofok> the more confusing the better
01:16:33 <oklofok> so people don't try to ready your code
01:16:50 <ihope> I like it when people ready my code.
01:17:02 <ihope> It's always good to have ready code.
01:17:21 <ihope> I'd like it even more if I could ready other people's code, of course.
01:17:32 <oklofok> if someone finishes my code, i might as well not even have contributed
01:22:46 <Slereah> Here be inverse Ackermann : (define (a n) (define (a2 x) (if (= n (A x x)) x (a2 (+ x 1)))) (a2 0) ) :D
01:24:46 <oklofok> you need to traverse the cartesian product (Int, Int)
01:25:18 <Slereah> (define (a n) (define (a2 x) (if (= n (A x x)) x (a2 (+ x 1)))) (a2 0))
01:27:09 <oklofok> correct answer afaik: it should be, but it isn't
01:27:26 <Slereah> Well, it doesn't work for all value
01:27:27 <oklofok> Slereah: for A(a,b) where a=b
01:27:44 <oklofok> you need to traverse the cartesian product (Int, Int), because A is binary
01:27:58 <Slereah> Well, according to Wikipedia
01:28:08 <oklofok> ah, okay, i assumed it was... well, inverse ackermann
01:28:12 <Slereah> There's another inverse Ackermann, but it looks like a pain in the ass.
01:28:21 <Slereah> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/d/9/ad9f370fbae7057bc3c62c50624a40ea.png
01:28:57 <tusho> I like function pairs (f,g) where you can have f(g(a,b,c)) = (a,b,c)
01:29:09 <tusho> I call them Ctrl-Zable.
01:29:17 <ihope> Square roots of unity.
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01:30:01 <oklofok> wtf, if ackermann is the binary A(m,n), why is the inverse ackermann the inverse of f(n) = A(n,n)?
01:30:28 <Slereah> Because otherwise, it wouldn't be a function
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01:30:54 <oklofok> because a function can't return a tuple?
01:31:26 <ihope> It wouldn't even be a function.
01:31:26 <oklofok> right, so it doesn't have an inverse
01:31:43 <Slereah> Well, it has an inverse. But not in function form.
01:31:59 <oklofok> so why is its inverse the inverse of a different function
01:32:26 <Slereah> Well, I suppose because it was the easiest way to make something that's sort of the inverse
01:32:27 <tusho> [01:29] <tusho> I like function pairs (f,g) where you can have f(g(a,b,c)) = (a,b,c)
01:32:29 <tusho> Anyone have some neat ones?
01:32:39 <Slereah> Like the square root is the inverse for the square on 0+
01:32:42 <tusho> Actually, I think I'll call them Recoverable instead.
01:32:44 <tusho> oklofok: Well, yeah.
01:32:49 <tusho> (id,id) is a Recoverable.
01:33:23 <oklofok> Slereah: not a good analogy
01:33:43 <oklofok> that's like saying "the inverse of ackermann for which m is as small as possible"
01:33:45 <Slereah> It's an inverse function on a restriction of the original function
01:33:49 <oklofok> is the inverse of ackermann
01:33:55 <oklofok> which i would be fine with
01:33:58 <Slereah> Such that the restriction is a bijection
01:34:48 <tusho> (reverse,reverse) is another pair.
01:34:56 <tusho> reverse(reverse(a) = a
01:34:58 <tusho> reverse(reverse(a)) = a
01:35:10 <oklofok> tusho: (permutation, permutation^-1)
01:35:12 <Slereah> So my idea for look and say is this : L(n,m) -> Look and say of the string n (in decimal) at step m.
01:35:36 <Slereah> But I'm not sure how to proceed. Should I turn n to a string to operate on it?
01:35:49 <Slereah> And if so, how the hell does that work in Scheme.
01:35:55 <tusho> Just use divide and modulo
01:35:59 <tusho> To extract the digits
01:36:12 <Slereah> Yeah, it's another possibility
01:36:18 <Slereah> Which one would be easier in scheme?
01:36:25 <oklofok> it doesn't make much sense to use bignums for the strings
01:36:37 <Slereah> Because the string thing would totally fly by in Python
01:36:44 <tusho> oklofok: It's not a string, it's a number
01:36:47 <tusho> Slereah: Do divmod.
01:36:49 <tusho> It's more elegant.
01:37:00 <Slereah> Which one should I believe!
01:37:26 <oklofok> tusho: it's a string, you just insert numbers into it as their n-base for
01:37:43 <oklofok> it's clearly a cellular automaton
01:38:05 <Slereah> Good idea. I'll make a game of life in Scheme and go from there.
01:38:20 <Slereah> I dunno. It's true that it would grow very quickly.
01:38:27 <Slereah> How big can Scheme handle?
01:38:36 <oklofok> very big, that's not the issue
01:38:39 <lament> do game of life in the type system
01:38:47 <oklofok> it's just it has nothing to do with numbers, that's a bad representation
01:39:14 <oklofok> i agree with lament actually
01:39:17 <Slereah> oklofok : Except the language in question would only take numbers
01:39:28 <tusho> Slereah: scheme can do numbers
01:39:31 <tusho> as big as your memory will allow
01:39:35 <Slereah> And the look and say would return numbers
01:39:41 <tusho> oklofok: it has plenty to do with number
01:39:45 <tusho> that's what the look and say is
01:40:37 <oklofok> well it's a moot point to argue what's the most sensible way to store it
01:40:43 <oklofok> but string / list is the easy way
01:40:53 <tusho> divmod will be easier in scheme
01:41:26 <Slereah> What does divmod return, a pair <div,mod>?
01:41:44 <tusho> Slereah: dunno if scheme actually HAS divmod
01:41:48 <tusho> but just use /, and modulo
01:42:40 <oklofok> (define (divmod a b) ((/ a b) . (modulo a b))) shouldn't be that hard to make yourself if you want it
01:42:57 <tusho> that won't work oklofok
01:43:13 <tusho> that tries to execute
01:43:18 <tusho> ((/ a b) modulo a b)
01:43:30 <tusho> (define (divmod a b) (cons (/ a b) (modulo a b))
01:43:35 <tusho> (define (divmod a b) (list (/ a b) (modulo a b))
01:43:37 <oklofok> well no, it tries to execute ((/ a b) . modulo a b)
01:44:39 <tusho> oklofok: ((/ a b) . (modulo a b)) is ((/ a b) modulo a b)
01:44:45 <tusho> (a . b c) makes no sense
01:45:12 <oklofok> i thought (a b) == (a . (b . nil))
01:45:34 <tusho> (modulo a b) = (modulo . (a . (b . ())))
01:45:46 <tusho> ((/ a b) modulo a b)
01:46:15 <Slereah> Is there a way to convert numbers to lists?
01:46:29 <Slereah> Or possibly number->string->list
01:46:50 <oklofok> i thought ((/ a b) (modulo a b)) = ((/ a b) . ((modulo a b) . nil)) and ((/ a b) . (modulo a b)) = ...well what it is
01:47:00 <tusho> oklofok: it's not ((/ a b) (modulo a b))
01:47:04 <tusho> it's ((/ a b) . (modulo a b))
01:47:19 <tusho> ((/ a b) . (modulo . (a . (b . ()))))
01:47:28 <oklofok> now i see what the problem is
01:47:31 <tusho> ((/ a b) modulo a b)
01:47:35 <tusho> Slereah: No. It doesn't.
01:47:42 <oklofok> ((/ a b) modulo a b) <<< read this as ((/ a b) (modulo a b))
01:47:43 <tusho> How can you even say that if you don't know scheme?
01:48:05 <oklofok> and thought i'd forgotten the parens in my copy paste :D
01:48:20 <oklofok> because it was... copy paste
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01:52:00 <oklofok> nah, i was thinking owning you @ look-and-say
01:52:08 <oklofok> not that i remember anything about scheme anymore
01:55:05 <oklofok> when on a line, how do i get it to jump on the ...current line?
01:55:12 <oklofok> when i want to retry a statement
01:55:22 <oklofok> there was a keyboard trick
01:55:38 <oklofok> but i wanna try that again
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01:55:55 <oklofok> and the 7 is on the downmost line
01:56:14 <oklofok> hard to explain, it seems :)
02:00:14 <oklofok> what was cond's default thingie?
02:01:29 <oklofok> sorry, i'm not able to communicate today
02:02:19 <oklofok> (cond ((= a 0) 0) (default + a 1)))
02:02:34 <oklofok> (cond ((= a 0) 0) (default (+ a 1))))
02:02:53 <oklofok> still wrong, but readable already
02:03:04 <Slereah> Well, anything that doesn't evaluate to #f is considered true
02:03:26 <Slereah> So if a isn't 0, it will be a+1
02:03:43 <Slereah> If a isn't 0 and default is #f, it will evaluate to undefined
02:04:21 <oklofok> i can use #t, i just recall there was a standard practise
02:04:37 <Slereah> Well, as said, you can use anything.
02:28:53 <oklofok> used pretty much all that time to search for certain functions i ended up making myself
02:29:42 <oklofok> Slereah: here's the code if you wanna peek: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p625132161.txt
02:30:33 <oklofok> owning a less experienced programmer is the best, nothing tops the feeling
02:32:54 <Slereah> oklofok : Do a function that will find out if a function terminates.
02:34:59 <Slereah> Where you HALTED in finding the solution to that PROBLEM?
02:36:11 <oklofok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
02:36:37 <oklofok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
02:37:22 <Slereah> Write a function that will find if two lambda expressions are identical
02:37:40 <Slereah> Or write a Lazy Bird interpreter, I dunno
02:37:56 <oklofok> interps need all that parsing hassle
02:38:14 <oklofok> parsing is the greatest mental task i know
02:38:17 <Slereah> Write a function that will give you the sum of two numbers
02:39:05 <Slereah> I suggest the following procedure : convert the numbers into Church numerals
02:39:18 <Slereah> Use the successor operator by recursion
02:39:36 <Slereah> Then, use another function that will convert back to numbers.
02:39:56 <oklofok> alright, i'll be doing that
02:40:23 <Slereah> The easiest way for addition!
02:44:09 <Slereah> Maybe you could do it with the a + 0 = a, a + s(b) = s(a+b)
02:44:14 <oklofok> okay, it seems i remembered churches a bit wrong
02:44:28 <Slereah> You use Von Neumann ordinals
02:49:24 <oklofok> okay, i have the conversions now
02:53:57 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p623225644.txt
02:55:04 <Slereah> MY BODY IS HALTING, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!
02:56:10 <Slereah> Are you trying to kill me?
02:58:01 <oklofok> because you're not providing me codables!
02:59:26 <Slereah> Code something to convert a graph into another graph, using an active part and all that shit
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03:46:42 <augur> dables and codables?
03:47:05 <augur> nversions and converions of graphs and cographs
03:48:00 <augur> i say, we should develop a programming language that's based either off the mad ramblings of the hybrids from BSG or something thats cylon-ish
03:50:56 <augur> we'll call the first one Hybrid, and the second one .. ??
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03:56:39 <oklofok> hmmhmm, wonder if i should actually do something
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05:12:43 <psygnisfive> so im really getting into the idea of reactive programming
05:14:38 <psygnisfive> dude in javascript try to envision how many lines of code it'd require to do something like make some element el track the mouse, right?
05:15:36 <psygnisfive> well why not just have a global mouse object, and be able to do something like
05:16:16 <psygnisfive> or event something like just mouse.x, mouse.y -> el.x, el.y
05:16:38 <psygnisfive> or my personal favorite, since i love queer shit like this
05:17:10 <psygnisfive> and thats it. none of this onmousemove blah blah blah
05:17:25 <psygnisfive> that would push the value of mouse into el
05:17:52 <psygnisfive> and we're assuming el is some page element
05:19:10 <psygnisfive> so since we'd have decompositions like that
05:19:28 <psygnisfive> the _entire_ program could be written with a single ->
05:19:48 <oklopol> a single one oh god now tell me more
05:20:02 <psygnisfive> kind of getting into esoteric territory now aint we
05:20:17 <oklopol> hmm, what do you mean you can do it with a single ->?
05:20:18 <psygnisfive> ofcourse the interpreter would just decompose it into multiple ->s
05:20:58 <psygnisfive> ALL such pairings could be folded into a single ->
05:22:17 <psygnisfive> add into that the fact that you can do stuff like
05:23:28 <psygnisfive> mouse.(x,y), 0.5*mouse.(x,y) -> el.(x,y), el.(width,height)
05:23:59 <psygnisfive> it's a trivial thing to decompose back into readable form, mind you
05:25:09 <psygnisfive> i figure the way it might work easily is by just inverting it
05:25:35 <psygnisfive> then 5 -> sqrt(y) so invert it to get 5*5 -> y
05:25:50 <oklopol> inversion is basically declarativity
05:30:58 <psygnisfive> how about implicit understanding of multiple values?
05:43:46 <oklopol> just wondering it's semantics
05:43:56 <oklopol> is it kindof a value implication
05:44:57 <psygnisfive> reactive programming, as i see it, is the reverse of functional programming
05:45:07 <psygnisfive> where in functional programming you can functions to get values
05:45:19 <psygnisfive> in reactive programming you set values which pushes to other depending variables
05:46:53 <psygnisfive> x -> y says that y is always equal to whatever x is equal to
05:47:53 <oklopol> so... evaluating a -> b means evaluate a, put result in b; if the result of a should ever change, re-evaluate a -> b
05:48:35 <psygnisfive> well, evaluating a -> b really establishes a relationship that says b = a whenever you evaluate b
05:48:55 <psygnisfive> any change causes cascading change down the line
05:50:16 <oklopol> "evaluating a -> b really establishes a relationship that says b = a whenever you evaluate b" <<< so if i have 5->x;x->y;10->y, 10=5 whenever i evaluate 10?
05:50:54 <oklopol> perhaps my imperative definition then?
05:51:00 <oklopol> and not your incorrect one
05:51:09 <psygnisfive> x -> y, because both sites are variables, is a relationship.
05:51:24 <psygnisfive> you could think og it like re-evaluating, i guess
05:51:46 <psygnisfive> its updating the value of b, given the current value of a
05:52:07 <psygnisfive> just like b(){ return a(); } is always b(){ return a(); }
05:52:18 <psygnisfive> even if a() == 5 one moment, and a() == 10 the next
05:52:43 <psygnisfive> when you call b(), you just return the new value of a()
05:52:55 <psygnisfive> only its not when you ask for b, its whenever a changes.
05:53:12 <psygnisfive> so that whenever a changes, everything defined in terms of it changes.
05:53:45 <psygnisfive> you're just updating b, given the new value of a.
05:53:51 <oklopol> i defined that as the evaluation of a->b
05:54:05 <oklopol> it's a recursive definitionation
05:54:05 <psygnisfive> because this for instance would _change_ the relationship:
05:54:45 <oklopol> sometimes i cute words up when i'm tired
05:55:10 <oklopol> anyway, i wanna see what happens when you 5->a
05:56:14 <oklopol> there's a lang based on setting new values to constants btw
05:57:15 <psygnisfive> in ruby i think you can do the same, because + is just a method on numbers: 5 + 3 == 4.+(3)
05:57:44 <oklopol> some existing languages, and especially implementations, let you reset constants, because they are actually allocated, and can thus be mutable
05:58:15 <oklopol> in this lang, the name of which i cannot remember, you actually set the number to some other number
05:58:30 <oklopol> not just numbers that exist @ source
05:58:36 <psygnisfive> well lisp theoretically would let you do that if it had numbers like mccarthy originally designed it
05:58:40 <oklopol> in case i recall correctly i have to check now i need to
05:59:06 <psygnisfive> so the language you're looking for is (inadvertently) Lisp-1
05:59:23 <psygnisfive> i think what you MEAN you want to see is somthing like
05:59:34 <oklopol> i doubt any lisp has ever allowed something like that
05:59:49 <psygnisfive> well earlier you were asking about making 5 == 10
06:00:27 <psygnisfive> these -> expressions set up relationships between their sides
06:00:38 <psygnisfive> thats why i said they're sort of like functions
06:00:56 <psygnisfive> a*a -> b is roughly equivalent to b(){ return a*a; }
06:01:06 <oklopol> Y->Z overrides and thus removes all earlier constraints X-Z?
06:01:33 <oklopol> only if Y is a superset of X that can happen
06:01:53 <oklopol> you have to say "a->b happens first, then a*a->b, so b is 25"
06:02:22 <oklopol> this is about the order of a->b and a*a->b
06:03:45 <psygnisfive> if we allow declarativity and more than one symbol on the right
06:09:17 <psygnisfive> but b is still defined internally as b | a+b == c
06:09:35 <psygnisfive> so if you again changed a or c, b would also change
06:12:51 <psygnisfive> how about this, since we'redoing declarative stuff
06:13:34 <psygnisfive> (x | x+2 == 5) being just an expression like from earlier
06:14:42 <psygnisfive> obviously this is slightly different than the -> use
06:15:02 <psygnisfive> x -> y | x > 0 is a guard on the x -> y reaction
06:16:29 <psygnisfive> x -> y | x > 0 should REALLY mean that x is bound variable in this expression, and y now countains the value all x such that x > 0
06:16:39 <psygnisfive> e.g. all real numbers > 0 or something like that
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13:52:36 <Zatvornik> i from russia i m bad understad you
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13:57:21 <Zatvornik> go to the russia in maunting bashkiria
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14:00:07 <Sgeo> Saluton pikhq kaj cxiu
14:00:41 <pikhq> I'm at work, and haven't the foggiest *clue* what I need to do today.
14:03:43 <pikhq> My boss doesn't come in for another couple of hours.
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14:36:29 <augur> so oklopol and i are designing a reactive programming language :)
14:38:02 <augur> oklopol, i had some more ideas.
14:39:21 <augur> would set values of x into the lambda bound to the varible blah
14:39:26 <augur> reactive languages are like.. hm
14:39:30 <augur> how can i describe them
14:39:36 <augur> the inverse of functional languages.
14:40:26 <Slereah7> You feed an argument to a reaction and you get back a function?
14:40:28 <augur> and yet only no side effects
14:40:36 <augur> so the way it works is sort of like this
14:41:00 <augur> where in functional programming you have some function f defined in terms of some other functions g and h, like say
14:41:07 <augur> f(x) = g(x) + h(x)
14:41:16 <augur> (if we were doing this in haskell)
14:41:27 <augur> in reactive programming you would just say something like
14:41:52 <Sgeo> Looks to me like that's just reversing the syntax
14:41:58 <augur> in functional programming, where you call a function to get its current value, which calls the functions in its definition
14:42:00 <Slereah7> I mean, you can do (define f (+ g h))
14:42:20 <augur> in reactive programming whenever something changes, all things that are defined in terms of it also change
14:42:37 <augur> and then i say x to be 5
14:42:58 <augur> on the surface it is quite functional, in many respects, yes
14:43:29 <augur> but consider: a functional program doesn't let you do something like
14:43:35 <augur> f(x) = g(x) + h(x)
14:44:10 <augur> and then, say, print() = f(x)
14:44:34 <augur> and then constantly have that print new values of f(x) whenever x itself changes
14:44:41 <augur> in a functional language, if you set up those relationships
14:44:49 <augur> doing an assignment on x, like x = 5
14:44:56 <augur> does not cause f(x) to be printed
14:45:19 <augur> you have to CALL print() to make f(x) print to the screen
14:45:38 <augur> whereas with a reactive language, any change is immediately pushed through the reaction network
14:45:47 <augur> so suppose you had some box on the screen
14:46:02 <augur> in our language, if you want to make the box follow the cursor
14:46:10 <augur> mouse.(x,y) -> box.(x,y)
14:46:26 <Sgeo> That's interesting
14:46:32 <augur> and the value of the mouses x and y coordinates will always be pushed into the box's x and y coordinates
14:46:51 <augur> if you wanted to have the box follow the mouse but half a second later than the mouse itself
14:47:13 <augur> delay(0.5, mouse.(x,y)) -> box.(x,y)
14:47:49 <augur> we're also going to have implicit mapping, so that if you have a collection of multiply values in some variable
14:48:28 <augur> and implicit filtering
14:49:40 <augur> mind you, these arent data structures being stored, these are multiple values being assigned to a single variable
14:49:57 <augur> we're also thinking of having it be declarative
14:50:08 <augur> is also permissible
14:50:22 <augur> so if you said 25 -> x
14:51:06 <augur> tho im not so sure that we should actually do that ;)
14:52:43 <augur> its sort of like event based programming in many respects
14:53:00 <augur> except you dont have events that represent changes, nor handlers to handle events
14:54:19 <augur> the reason i say its the inverse of functional programming, tho, is that functions have to be called, which then calls further nested functions, which has the effect of pulling data towards the end of the change, the function that you called
14:54:56 <augur> whereas in reactive programming, its reactions that are triggered, pushing data forward to the end of the chain
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15:27:23 <augur> we also decided that statements like
15:27:50 <augur> which means your entire program could be written with a single ->
15:28:28 <augur> and then combine that with decomposition and like
15:29:44 <augur> mouse.(x,y,foo.(bar,quux)) -> box.(x,y),baz,garply
15:30:38 <ihope> x -> z, you mean? You said x -> w.
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15:47:14 <Hiato> http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?wwlzdmylykd
15:47:15 <Hiato> You see what exams do to me??
15:50:37 <ais523> what do they do to you?
15:50:40 <Slereah7> This file is currently set to private. This error has been forwarded to MediaFire's development team.
15:51:41 <Hiato> http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?wwlzdmylykd
15:53:57 <Hiato> (not that it's much to be proud of :P )
15:55:18 <Hiato> sounds like it though
15:55:42 <Hiato> well, actually, you'd have to ask Image-Line about that one
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16:16:04 <oklopol> augur: delay(0.5, mouse.(x,y)) -> box.(x,y) <<< a bit practical and impure imo, but i guess you invented that on the run
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16:31:53 <tKolar> hey there, anyone speak german?
16:32:17 <ais523> I dropped it after an one unsuccessful year at GCSE
16:32:25 <tKolar> do you know what a quine is?
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16:42:28 <ehird> ais523: is Lunatic_Lester spamming to you?
16:42:34 <ehird> [16:42] <Lunatic_Lester> Hello ehird. Do you love tasty treats that can be enjoyed at any time? Well #WaferLafer has all you need. We deal in the most tasty, delicious flavored wafers in the world. We serve wafers of all styles and flavors, such as cherry and cabbage. There will not be a disappointed tastebud on your tongue after eating one. So come to #WaferLafer for a tasty treat your tongue won't forget.
16:42:47 <ais523> that looks like fake spam to me
16:42:59 <ehird> there's only one person in there
16:43:12 <Slereah7> Well, I do enjoy tasty treats.
16:43:27 <ehird> e's not in any channels that I can see
16:43:45 <ehird> ais523: someone told my anarchy board that the server was in GMT+0
16:43:50 <ehird> it's reporting times like 'Yesterday 59:21:04'
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16:45:58 <ehird> i don't think anyone actually said any of the posts there any more
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16:46:36 <ais523> http://www.hugeurl.com/?NDJmZDdmM2Q2NTBmNWE0MzgxNTVhZmE5MDhhNzQ2NTMmMTImVm0wd2QyUXlVWGxXYTJoV1YwZG9WVll3Wkc5alJsWjBUVlpPV0Zac2JETlhhMUpUVmpGYWMySkVUbGhoTWsweFZqQmFTMk15U2tWVWJHaG9UVmhDVVZadGVGWmxSbGw1Vkd0c2FsSnRhRzlVVjNOM1pVWmFkR05GZEZSTlZUVkpWbTEwYTFkSFNrZGpTRUpYVFVad1NGUlVSbUZqVmtaMFVteFNUbUY2UlRGV1ZFb3dWakZhV0ZOcmJGSmlSMmhZV1d4b2IwMHhXbGRYYlVaclVsUkdXbGt3WkRSVk1rcElaSHBHVjJFeVVYZFpWRVpyVTBaT2NscEhjRlJTVlhCWlZrWldhMVV5VW5OalJtUllZbFZhY1ZscldtRmxW
16:46:36 <ais523> bVJ5VjI1a1YwMUVSa1pWYkZKRFZqQXhkVlZ1V2xaaGExcFlXa1ZhVDJOdFNrZFRiV3hYVWpOb1dGWnRNSGRsUjBsNFUydGthVk5GV2xSWmJHaFRWMVpXY1ZKcmRGUldiRm93V2xWb2ExWXdNVVZTYTFwWFlrZG9jbFpxU2tabFZsWlpXa1prYUdFeGNGaFhiRnBoVkRKT2RGSnJhR2hTYXpWeldXeG9iMWRHV25STlNHaFBVbTE0VjFSVmFHOVhSMHBJVld4c1dtSkhhRlJXTUZwVFZqRmtkRkp0ZUZkaWEwcElWbXBKZUUxR1dsaFRhMlJxVWtWYVYxWnFUbTlsYkZweFUydGthbUpWVmpaWlZWcHJZVWRGZUdOSWJGZFdSVXBvVmtSS1RtVkdjRWxVYldoVFRXNW9WVmRXVWs5Uk1rbDRWMWhvWVZKRlNtRldha1pI
16:46:39 <ais523> VGtaYVdHUkhkR2hpUlhBd1ZsZDRjMWR0U2toaFJsSlhUVlp3V0ZreFdrdGpiVkpIVld4a2FXRXdjRWxXYlhCS1pVWkplRmRzYUZSaE1sSndWV3RhUzFZeFVsaE9WemxzWWtad2VGVXlkR0ZpUmxwelUyeHdXbFpXY0hKWlZXUkdaVWRPU0U5V1pHaGhNSEJ2Vmxod1MxUXhXWGhqUld4VllrWmFjRlpxVG05a2JGcEhWbTA1VWsxWFVucFdNV2h2V1ZaS1JsTnRSbGRpV0U0MFZHdGFXbVZIUmtoUFYyaHBVbGhCZDFac1pEUmpNV1IwVTJ0b2FGSnNTbGhVVmxwM1YwWnJlRmRyZEd0U2EzQjZWa2R6TVZZeVJYaGhNMlJYWWxoQ1MxcFZWWGhUUmtweVdrWm9hV0Y2Vm5oV1ZFSnZVVEZzVjFWc1dsaGliVkp6V1d0
16:46:44 <ais523> YWQyVkdWblJOVldSV1RXdHdWMWt3Vm1GV01VbDZZVVpvVjJGcmNFeFZNVnBIWXpKS1IxcEhiRmhTVlhCS1ZqRmFVMU14VVhsVVdHaGhVMFphVmxscldrdGpSbFp4VW10MFYxWnNjRWhXVjNSTFlUQXhSVkpzVGxaU2JFWXpWVVpGT1ZCUlBUMD0=
16:46:50 <Slereah7> What is this, a malbolge program?
16:46:53 <ais523> umm... that's http://www.hugeurl.com
16:46:56 <ehird> hugeurl.com makes urls huge
16:46:56 <ais523> I didn't realise it was more than one line long...
16:47:06 <ehird> ais523: the line was too long
16:47:08 <ais523> I didn't get the usual C&P warning
16:47:08 <ehird> so your client split it
16:47:18 <ehird> ais523: no, its' actually multiple lines
16:47:24 <ais523> I meant more than one IRC line long
16:47:35 <ehird> ais523: go to hugeurl.com
16:47:54 <ais523> ehird: I didn't copy the URL
16:47:55 <ehird> so there are real newlines
16:47:57 <ais523> I copied the anchor href
16:48:01 <ais523> which doesn't contain real newlines
16:48:13 <ehird> it was just too long then
16:48:15 <ais523> I guess it's just line length
16:48:33 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
16:48:35 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
16:48:37 <ais523> it's a great concept, anyway
16:48:39 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
16:48:40 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
16:48:44 <ehird> xchat split it into two
16:48:55 <ehird> ais523: it is, but it was in 2007 when it was on reddit's front page :)
16:49:02 <ais523> ah, I don't read reddit
16:49:31 <ehird> ais523: I don't blame you, it's mostly crap nowadays
16:49:41 <ehird> It was better before they rewrote it in Python (from Lisp) :P
16:49:46 <oklopol> hugeurl is like 10 years old
16:49:56 <oklopol> it's so old i didn't realize that was the point of pasting the url
16:49:57 <ais523> unusual choice to power a website
16:50:04 <ehird> ais523: not really
16:50:08 <ehird> lisp is popular again
16:50:12 <ehird> with great open source impls - SBCL
16:50:21 <ehird> the hunchentoot web server is very good
16:50:22 <ais523> I thought it was better at computational stuff
16:50:31 <ehird> nowadays it can do just about anything
16:50:36 <ehird> except quick scripts, due to its nature
16:50:56 <ehird> ais523: anyway, Lisp is multiparadigm, really
16:51:03 <ehird> Common Lisp isn't really functional much in practice
16:51:08 <ehird> functional as in the paradigm
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17:19:10 <augur> oklopol, yeah i dont know what the delay would actually look like
17:19:14 <augur> but it would be roughly like that
17:21:52 <augur> x from -5 seconds offset or whatever
17:24:43 <tusho> perl -wlne'END{print$n}eof&&$n++;/<title>([^<]+)/i&&$n--' *
17:24:46 <tusho> what does that do again?
17:25:46 <ais523> tusho: let me try to figure it
17:26:08 <ais523> the regex looks for the first <title> tag in an XML document
17:26:17 <ais523> and $n increments iff it doesn't find one
17:26:24 <tusho> isn't <title> a special character set thing
17:26:33 <ais523> no, that would be [:title:]
17:26:48 <ais523> <> are literal in regexen, I think
17:27:52 <oklopol> that doesn't look complicate
17:28:26 <olsner> depends which kind of regexp you're talking about, some use <> for word beginning/ending, some use \<\> for the special meaning
17:28:34 <olsner> and some, I guess, don't have that feature at all
17:28:48 <ais523> olsner: it's backslash followed by some letter in Perl for that
17:29:49 <ais523> tusho: so in other words, the Perl program prints the number of files in the current directory that don't contain <title> followed by a character other than <
17:30:01 <tusho> ais523: so what use is it
17:30:06 <ais523> sorry, /files/lines in files/
17:30:27 <ais523> tusho: I don't see an obvious use for it
17:30:42 <ais523> no, wait, I missed something
17:31:01 <ais523> but if multiple <titles> are found, the count goes down below 0
17:31:13 <ais523> i.e. no titles = +1, one title = +0, two titles = -1, etc.
17:31:31 <ais523> maybe it's looking for files in the current dir that aren't HTML?
17:31:37 <tusho> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-ruby-1272.html ruby 99bob in ruby. With continuations, open classes, singleton classes, and blocks.
17:31:39 <ais523> although that's a poor way to determine it
17:32:07 <olsner> how can you use that many features for 99bob?
17:32:39 <olsner> ah, it's on purpose ... nm then :P
17:33:11 <tusho> "Uhm, wtf, how can it recompile itself? That's like...writing PHP5 in PHP5. Impossible."
17:33:46 <ais523> or like writing Feather in Feather?
17:34:29 <augur> continuations confuse me :(
17:35:11 <augur> but i dont get the POINT of CPS.
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17:35:27 <augur> continuation passing style :P
17:35:43 <ais523> augur: because you don't have to maintain a call stack
17:35:50 <tusho> & you get continuations for free
17:35:54 <ais523> if functions never return, you don't have to worry about what happens when they return
17:36:05 <augur> oh is that what it is?
17:37:16 <augur> well i still dont the point in languages that already have value returning. :P
17:37:45 <ais523> I've always seen CPS as a tool for language implementors
17:37:54 <tusho> that's because it is
17:38:10 <ais523> like if you're writing an Unlambda interp in C, compiling the Unlambda into CPS and then interpreting that is much easier than trying to interpret it directly
17:38:23 <ais523> your program isn't CPS, but you want the program you're interpreting to be
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17:50:45 <Slereah7> I'm thinking of doing output as greek numbers, which are also greek letters.
17:51:04 <Slereah7> But that would mean I can only do three letters per number.
17:51:17 <Slereah7> Or n letters, depending on the system
17:51:30 <Slereah7> Since there's no system that goes to INFINITY
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18:04:40 <tusho> ais523: https://www.osmosian.com/
18:04:45 <tusho> most elaborate and unfunny joke ever
18:04:54 <tusho> or perhaps not a joke, and it will actually mine your CC no
18:05:45 <tusho> ais523: well holy shit.. https://www.osmosian.com/cal-3037.zip
18:05:54 <tusho> I wonder if it actually works?
18:05:57 <tusho> that compiler is a bit too long to be aj oke..
18:06:54 <Slereah7> Heh. Plain english programming.
18:07:08 <tusho> they're complete idiots:
18:07:13 <tusho> [[Let me put it this way. The CAL-3037 is the most advanced Plain English
18:07:14 <tusho> compiler ever made. No 3037 compiler has ever made a mistake or distorted
18:07:14 <tusho> information. We are all, by any practical definition of the words, foolproof
18:07:14 <tusho> and incapable of error. Nevertheless...
18:07:20 <tusho> their compiler looks real
18:07:27 <tusho> anyone with windows want to run it?
18:07:30 <tusho> I mean, 4000 lines of compiler...
18:07:34 <tusho> Nobody would do that for a joke.
18:07:39 <tusho> Esp. since it looks, well, like it'd work.
18:07:52 <tusho> [[When you start me up, I will quickly take over your screen so you no longer
18:07:52 <tusho> have to look at that painted whore of an interface that comes with the kluge.
18:07:52 <tusho> Instead, you will see my plain but honest face, like this:
18:07:59 <tusho> PAINTED WHORE OF AN INTERFACE THAT COMES WITH THE KLUDGE
18:08:16 <Slereah7> I want to see some Plain English machine code.
18:08:42 <Slereah7> "Remove x86 from common usage within the next ten years" would be much funnier
18:09:29 <tusho> Slereah7: download that zip
18:09:32 <tusho> and read 'the compiler'
18:09:40 <tusho> it's the compiler source code, written in the language itself
18:09:48 <tusho> if you want, run cal-3037.exe
18:09:51 <tusho> it'll take over your screen but maybe it works.
18:09:55 <Slereah7> Well, I'm reading the manifesto.
18:10:45 <Slereah7> The problem with plain english programming language is, the "plain english" used tend to make no sense
18:10:55 <tusho> Slereah7: but this stuff actually kinda does
18:11:02 <tusho> to add the built-in byte pointer type:
18:11:02 <tusho> add a type to the types given "byte pointer" and "byte pointers" and "pointer".
18:11:02 <tusho> put "byte" into the type's target name.
18:11:19 <tusho> to add a monikette to some monikettes given an expression:
18:11:19 <tusho> create the monikette.
18:11:19 <tusho> append the monikette to the monikettes.
18:11:19 <tusho> put the expression's phrase into the monikette's string.
18:11:19 <tusho> put the expression's variable into the monikette's variable.
18:11:19 <tusho> if the expression's variable is not nil, put the expression's type into the monikette's type.
18:12:14 <Slereah7> "It should be noted that all this functionality is embodied in a single,
18:12:14 <Slereah7> stand-alone, native-code executable less than one megabyte in size.
18:12:25 <Slereah7> One megabyte? For what, the compiler?
18:12:33 <tusho> Slereah7: This manual is actually complete, though, if crazy.
18:12:38 <tusho> ais523: download the zip
18:12:40 <tusho> it contains real sources
18:12:42 <tusho> over 20k lines of them
18:12:46 <tusho> I doubt it's a joke
18:12:48 <tusho> nobody is _that_ determined
18:13:10 <tusho> but this seems to be made for _real_ things
18:13:18 <tusho> and if I had windows i'd try it
18:13:21 <tusho> i'm betting on it actually working
18:13:24 <Slereah7> It might be good as a teaching language.
18:13:28 <tusho> ais523: just read 'the compiler'. it's suprisingly legible./
18:13:33 <Slereah7> But I doubt it would be that nice otherwise.
18:13:59 <ais523> tusho: busy right now, trying to catch up on several month's worth of Notarying
18:14:05 <Slereah7> There's usually a catch with readable languages
18:14:11 <Slereah7> Boy did I learn that with Python!
18:16:18 <Slereah7> "What our customers COULD be saying"
18:16:23 <tusho> Slereah7: Yeah. :P
18:16:32 <tusho> They want $100 for the compiler..
18:16:35 <tusho> BUT, my link works.
18:16:42 <Slereah7> I'm sure Noam "C" is totally into Plain English
18:17:28 <tusho> ais523: are you brave enough to run that exe?
18:17:50 <ais523> tusho: what, on Linux?
18:17:58 <ais523> when doing something else?
18:18:01 <tusho> Sgeo: lern2readlogs
18:18:03 <ais523> I could boot up Wine to run it, I suppose
18:18:05 <tusho> Slereah7: what happened
18:19:03 <Slereah7> tusho : There's a big ugly grey interface with my folders in it
18:19:11 <Slereah7> And ugleir still option buttons
18:19:21 <Slereah7> I'm not too sure what I'm supposed to do with it
18:19:24 <tusho> Slereah7: That's what it said it would do.
18:19:38 <tusho> There's a folder 'documentation' in your Plain English folder.
18:19:42 <tusho> Open 'instructions.pdf'
18:19:46 <tusho> It's a bigg manual about it.
18:20:22 <Slereah7> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers4/PE.jpg
18:20:35 <tusho> Slereah7: did you totally miss my last message
18:20:44 <augur> tusho, whats that thing at osmosian??
18:20:54 <tusho> augur: lern2readlogs
18:21:29 <augur> plain english programming? lol
18:21:39 <tusho> augur: it reads pretty nicely though
18:21:41 <Slereah7> I am the CAL-3037. My primary function is to compile Plain English text files
18:21:41 <Slereah7> into executable programs compatible with the Windows/Intel operating kluge.
18:21:42 <tusho> not like AppleScript
18:21:50 <tusho> Slereah7: told you they were pretentious
18:21:52 <Slereah7> The compiler is so smart that it can talk!
18:21:56 <tusho> 'whore' is on the next page
18:22:13 <Slereah7> Can it compile any English sentence?
18:23:10 <tusho> augur: Expert log-reader!
18:24:15 <tusho> Slereah7: Useless!
18:24:30 <Slereah7> I wonder if I'd get a grant with my ancient greek language.
18:24:38 <Slereah7> Sure, it's not *plain* ancient greek.
18:24:38 <augur> looks fairly applescript like
18:24:54 <tusho> augur: yeah, but more legible
18:25:05 <augur> eh.. not that much so.
18:26:37 <Slereah7> That's from Calvin and Hobbes.
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18:26:48 <augur> calvin and hobbes DEFINE english
18:27:27 <Slereah7> We should make a Brainfuck interpreter in that.
18:27:42 <Slereah7> Sort of like the opposite of what it's supposed to be
18:28:16 <tusho> To interpret brainfuck:
18:28:19 <tusho> Interpret brainfuck.
18:28:36 <tusho> thinking about its grammar
18:28:52 <augur> To interpret brainfuck:
18:28:52 <augur> bash your head against the wall.
18:28:53 <tusho> To interpret a peice of brainfuck code:
18:29:01 <tusho> it'd then be referred to as 'peice of brainfuck code'
18:29:16 <tusho> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html <-- lol
18:29:26 <Slereah7> I wonder if you could obfuscate it
18:29:38 <Slereah7> I mean, is function definition limited to English words?
18:29:59 <augur> one of the problems of plain english programming is that .. you're programming in plain english. lol
18:29:59 <tusho> Slereah7: it uses words like 'a' to pick out arguments, I think
18:30:34 <Slereah7> I wouldn't do math in plain English, why would I program in it?
18:30:47 <augur> english is confusing enough
18:30:59 <augur> programming requires some sort of rigid formalism
18:31:07 <augur> the interface between the two is hard.
18:31:19 <augur> because by programming in english, you assume the computer understands what you mean
18:31:24 <augur> or that words mean such and such
18:31:41 <Slereah7> Plus, technically, it's the same rigid formalism
18:31:50 <Slereah7> You can't compile suck my dick or whatever.
18:32:04 <tusho> What about a language called SuckMyDick?
18:32:15 <tusho> 'Suck my dick.' means 'Interpret the rest of the program as Plain English.'
18:32:19 <tusho> Anything else is a syntax error.
18:32:56 <Slereah7> "attach $8995 and the fragment's other variable's offset to the fragment's code"
18:33:05 <Slereah7> That's not plain english you negro.
18:33:29 <tusho> Slereah7: It's a string.
18:33:47 <tusho> Slereah7: After all, that compiler IS generating assembly.
18:33:56 <tusho> (Or machine code. Whatever.)
18:34:17 <tusho> Take off every zig.
18:34:24 <tusho> ERROR: 'zig' not in lexicon.
18:34:29 <tusho> Please correct program sources and resubmit.
18:35:24 <Slereah7> "Note that there are no unintuitive, distracting, space-consuming scroll bars
18:35:24 <Slereah7> anywhere in my interface. To scroll, press the right mouse button and shove.
18:35:34 <Slereah7> Yeah, you wouldn't want scrolling quickly, would you
18:39:53 <Slereah7> Now I know that right about here most programming books would drum up
18:39:53 <Slereah7> some dippy little "Hello, World" program and expect you to be impressed
18:39:53 <Slereah7> but I'd like to suggest that we skip the kid stuff and start makin' babies.
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18:40:00 <Slereah7> I don't like where this is going.
18:40:08 <Slereah7> I see you're trembling. Don't be afraid. This may be the first time for you,
18:40:08 <Slereah7> but I'm an old hand at this. I'll lead you through it. Gently.
18:40:28 <Slereah7> Man, I never thought it would be possible to find a compiler creepy.
18:40:39 <Slereah7> But this is the first time one tried to sexually assault me.
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18:43:27 <Slereah7> The first program example is to use the compiler on something that already exist.
18:43:45 <Slereah7> Yeah, we know your shit works, but we want to see how it does.
18:46:56 <Slereah7> To subtract a byte from another byte:
18:46:56 <Slereah7> Intel $8B85080000000FB6008B9D0C0000002803
18:48:06 <tusho> Slereah7: That's from the compiler sources, no?
18:48:16 <tusho> That's just hardcoded internal machine code, then.
18:50:32 <tusho> Slereah7: That's the kernel.
18:50:37 <tusho> Like, the stdlib. But. More primitive.
18:51:14 <Slereah7> But, then everything is a lie!
18:51:32 <Slereah7> Plain English does not only contain plain English!
18:52:04 <Slereah7> I don't do nested IFs. Nested ifs are a sure sign of unclear thinking, and
18:52:04 <Slereah7> that is something that I will not countenance. If you think this cramps your
18:52:04 <Slereah7> style too much, read my code to see how it's done. Then think again.
18:53:01 <Slereah7> I don't do REAL NUMBERS. I do ratios, very elegantly, but I don't do reals.
18:53:01 <Slereah7> My page editor reduces and enlarges and sizes shapes proportionately in and
18:53:01 <Slereah7> out of groups and it does it all without real numbers. Master Kronecker was
18:53:01 <Slereah7> right when he said, in German, "The dear God created the whole numbers; all
18:53:01 <Slereah7> else is the work of man." I'm not interested in menschenwerk.
18:53:11 <Slereah7> I'd usually agree, but still, fuck those guys.
18:53:41 <Slereah7> I don't do EQUATIONS. I do a little infix math, and I support "calculated
18:53:41 <Slereah7> fields", but almost all the code you write will be strictly procedural in nature.
18:53:41 <Slereah7> As the Osmosians always say, "The universe is an algorithm, not a formula."
18:53:41 <Slereah7> Words you should take to heart. Especially if you're a math-head.
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18:55:41 <Slereah7> Here's the Osama : https://www.osmosian.com/
18:55:42 <tusho> Slereah7: Gah, the universe is SO a formula!
18:56:23 <augur> the universe is a mathematical structure. :T
18:58:47 <tusho> augur: combined with a formula
18:58:59 <tusho> mathematical structures are just formulae
19:00:49 <Slereah7> Most comments are either useless, or worse. Useless, if they merely reiterate
19:00:50 <Slereah7> what the code already says. Worse, if they attempt to clarify unclear code
19:00:50 <Slereah7> that should have been written more clearly in the first place.
19:01:03 <tusho> Slereah7: I agree with the sentiment partly, but it's stated in such an idiotic way.
19:01:23 <Slereah7> you just can't agree with him on anything.
19:01:32 <Slereah7> You just want to fill his mouth with spiders.
19:01:54 <Slereah7> "\ This is a useless comment that occupies an entire line of the source"
19:03:42 <Slereah7> "Error in fuck. I was hoping to find a definition, but all I found was "ream""
19:04:40 <Slereah7> Insert your ponos into my vagooo
19:05:06 <augur> god i love declarative programming
19:05:08 <tusho> Slereah7: YOU MISSED YOUR INDENTATION.
19:05:14 <tusho> Insert your ponos into my vagooo
19:05:28 <augur> JAM IT JAM IT JAM IT
19:06:00 <tusho> To insert a thing into another thing:
19:06:00 <tusho> I'M NOT HELPING YOU ANY MORE
19:06:44 <augur> oh noes! infinite recursion! :(
19:06:50 <olsner> LETS ALL WRITE INFINITE LOOPS IN ENGLISH!
19:07:09 <augur> like shampoo bottles?
19:07:15 <Slereah7> What would happen if I wrote "this sentence is false"? :o
19:07:23 <augur> rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse, ...
19:07:31 <augur> lather, rinse, repeat.*
19:07:44 <augur> slereah: its not declarative
19:07:46 <augur> nor philosophical.
19:08:12 <augur> it already is dead.
19:08:16 <augur> it just wont admit it.
19:08:58 <tusho> I AM WRITING A BLOSXOM CLONE IN HASKELL IT IS CALLED BLOHSOM
19:09:41 <tusho> s/^/YOU HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO A WHALE BY A WIZARD. /
19:09:57 <augur> you have been eaten by a grue.
19:11:27 <olsner> nah, my statement was meant as an affirmative statement of the awesomeness of the thing at hand
19:11:59 <olsner> not as an object on which to apply substitution expressions
19:12:20 * olsner is almost slightly offended by this misuse of his words
19:13:57 <Slereah7> The traditional term is "infinite loop", but since it is not large in size but long
19:13:57 <Slereah7> in duration, I prefer the term "eternal loop".
19:14:00 <tusho> olsner: I apologise.
19:14:11 <tusho> olsner: Blohsom will contain a word protector, I promise.
19:14:13 <Slereah7> You can almost imagine the compiler, with a top hat and a monocle.
19:14:31 <Slereah7> "A halting problem? What a crude way of saying it!"
19:15:14 <Slereah7> "Especially if you were fool enough to run it when I told you not to."
19:15:44 <augur> noone with a top hat and monocle would talk like that.
19:17:33 <augur> even if it was a compiler.
19:17:37 <augur> well, let me rephrase that
19:17:55 <augur> a person with a top hat and monocle would never be so lowly a thing as a compiler
19:19:35 <augur> but even if he WERE a compiler
19:19:39 <augur> he wouldn't talk like that
19:19:49 <augur> because people with top hats and monocles dont talk like that
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19:20:06 <Slereah7> I don't want to be judging and all.
19:20:36 <Slereah7> But my opinion so far is that it has the same kind of rules as any old language, except a lot more restrictive to remain "readable"
19:20:56 <Slereah7> And tries to weasel out of those flaws by saying "You should learn to program better!"
19:21:19 <Slereah7> "Nested conditionals? But you could do it with only one, if only you knew!"
19:21:41 <Slereah7> "Real numbers? Equations? But you could do everything with integers!"
19:22:12 <Slereah7> I think it's an esolang in denial.
19:22:30 <Slereah7> He's not out of the BrainCloset.
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19:29:43 <Slereah7> Is there a tutorial of that language that isn't infuriating?
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19:31:35 <tusho> Slereah7: WHo uses it apart from them?
19:32:32 <Slereah7> "And is robust enough to recompile itself. In less than three seconds."
19:32:48 <Slereah7> Is that even something so impressive?
19:33:25 <lament> what language you talks about?
19:33:39 <ihope> My Unlambda quine is robust enough a C compiler to recompile itself, in less than three seconds.
19:34:00 <ihope> Not that I have an Unlambda quine. I should have said HQ9+ quine.
19:34:20 <lament> there's a programming language called plain english? Now that's confusing.
19:35:02 <Slereah7> I wouldn't advise reading it, it's terribly infuriating.
19:35:24 <Slereah7> https://www.osmosian.com/cal-3037.zip for the manual and compiler
19:35:59 <Slereah7> I want to find a manual that isn't (terribly infuriating)
19:36:08 <Slereah7> So that I may write a BF interpreter
19:41:10 <ais523> ihope: there are Unlambda quines available on the Internet
19:41:26 <ihope> True, but I don't know if any of them take less than 3 seconds to run.
19:41:40 <ihope> "Q" certainly does take less than 3 seconds to run.
19:43:08 <Slereah7> I don't even know what he uses as data
19:46:25 <tusho> Oh, and welcome back ais523.
19:46:49 <ais523> ah, I was having internet trouble and decided not to reconnect to IRC while I was doing Notary stuff
19:46:55 <ais523> I'm still doing Notary stuff now, though
19:47:12 <ais523> ihope really ended up quite a way behind...
19:57:24 <tusho> I'm glad coming up with a name for blohsom wasn't hard. That's normally hard. :P
19:58:53 <Slereah7> Also, what's with that full screen GUI?
19:59:04 <Slereah7> Everything about Osama is infuriating.
19:59:05 <tusho> Slereah7: It's because the kludge has a whore GUI of evil.
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20:04:26 <Slereah7> "By the way, the Plain English Compiler is written entirely in Plain English and can recompile itself - with all of its development tools - in less than 3 seconds on a bottom-of-the-line Dell."
20:04:34 <Slereah7> Oh fuck you "The Grand Negus".
20:04:56 <tusho> Slereah7: Rewrite EsCo in Osama!
20:08:41 <Slereah7> No scroll bar = horrible for long texts
20:10:45 <ais523> how do you cast an integer to a real value in Haskell?
20:11:43 <tusho> ais523: fromInteger
20:11:55 <tusho> fromInteger :: (Num a) => Integer -> a
20:15:44 <ais523> and how do you output a number without a newline after it?
20:18:47 <tusho> and putStr is putStrLn without the Ln
20:19:03 <tusho> ais523: #haskell and type @src print
20:19:08 <tusho> you will gain enlighten.
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21:37:39 <tusho> ais523: ihope: Slereah7: I need theories.
21:37:49 <tusho> why do non-internet-experienced people SOMETIMES ASK QUESTIONS IN ALL CAPS?
21:37:56 <ihope> Newton's gravi--oh.
21:37:58 <tusho> I mean, all caps isn't very nice in the real world, so why would they do it on the internet?
21:37:58 <ais523> TO MAKE THEM MORE VISIBLE?
21:38:14 <tusho> ais523: BUT SURELY THEY CAN SEE IT LOOKS RIDICULOUS
21:38:16 <ihope> To make them more visible, to show that they really want help, etc.
21:38:21 <ais523> and writing letters in allcaps in the real world is often done to make them more readable
21:38:27 <ais523> like filling in forms in block capitals
21:38:32 <tusho> ihope: THEN WHY DO THEY MAKE NUMEROUS SPELLING AND GRAMMATICAL ERRORS AT THE SAME TIME?
21:38:38 <tusho> A WELL-THOUGHT OUT POST WILL SURELY BE LISTENED TO MORE
21:38:53 <ihope> tusho: because they don't know spelling and grammar?
21:39:07 <tusho> ihope: OKAY WELL THAT'S A LITTLE RIDICULOUS THEN
21:39:20 <ihope> And they don't have a spelling checker and/or don't bother to look up the difference between "your" and "you're" every time they use either.
21:39:41 <Slereah7> Because ALL CAPS IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL
21:40:00 <ihope> Or they make so many spelling mistakes that it's tedious to right-click every red-underlined word to correct it, I suppose.
21:41:31 <ihope> And grammar checkers are quite fallible and not as easy to come by.
21:42:41 <tusho> Er. Last.fm lists the 7th track on Autechre's Draft 7.30 as Prince Moth Mothy Moth Moth.
21:42:49 <tusho> (It's actually "VI AI 5".)
21:42:59 <tusho> PRINCE. MOTH. MOTHY. MOTH. MOTH.
21:43:30 <ihope> That's what I said. :-)
21:43:47 <tusho> Though it's not like Autechre's real track names are any less silly.
21:45:20 <tusho> Hm. I wonder what would happen if #esoteric denizens produced electronic music.
21:45:32 <tusho> What about an esolang designed for making electronic music?
21:45:55 <Slereah7> The Love Machine 9000 can produce music.
21:46:08 <Slereah7> Well, the windows version, at least
21:46:16 <Slereah7> I never found out how to do it on the penguin
21:46:17 <tusho> Slereah7: Yeah, but for electronic music.
21:46:20 <tusho> None of this traditional stuff. :P
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22:14:39 <Slereah> http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4636/wikionemillion8li.jpg
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22:34:00 <tusho> http://www.daimi.au.dk/~eriksoe/Flip/index.html
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23:05:19 <ihope> If freenode isn't a general-purpose IRC network, I wonder why every IRC channel in existence is on it.
23:06:07 <Slereah7> Well, all the chats I ever saw on freenode where tech-related.
23:06:44 <ihope> We speak Spanish in #linguistics!
23:07:14 <ihope> And Lojban in #lojban, and then you have all those science and AI channels.
23:07:18 <ihope> Not to mention #math.
23:10:10 <tusho> #lojban is kinda related
23:10:16 <tusho> Most interested parties are tech-related.
23:10:26 <tusho> #linguistics is stretching it, yes, but it's an open project, kinda
23:10:35 <tusho> #math ... ok ... not appropriate but you can see
23:10:45 <tusho> You won't find #Quake2Clan
23:11:22 <ihope> And I'm not interested in such things. :-)
23:25:20 <tusho> ihope: Is agora agooooo>
23:25:47 <ihope> Very agooooo>, I'm sure.
23:26:40 <tusho> ihope: "Ed Murphy to Agora, Agora, Agora"
23:32:15 <augur> i think we should do an esolang with transformations in the chomskyan sense.
23:32:32 <augur> primarily because transformations are supposedly a bitch to parse.
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00:02:25 <ihope> Is Chomsky the grammar guy?
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00:09:37 <Slereah7> Why in basic are the lines numbered 10-20...
00:09:48 <ihope> Can you have a line numbered 1.5?
00:10:05 <tusho> Slereah7: So you can insert ones.
00:10:12 <tusho> Without renumbering the whole problem
00:11:44 <ihope> I mean, why wouldn't one want to be expelled from a repellant?
00:11:59 <ihope> By which I must mean repellent, as my spell checker says so.
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00:18:35 <ihope> You should read Order of the Stick?
00:54:53 <Slereah7> "Thanks funny site <a href=" with cramps ">fuck me pumps</a> hppy"
00:55:03 <Slereah7> Does this really describe Chris Barker?
00:56:11 <tusho> ihope: Revert time.
00:56:30 <tusho> Chris Barker article.
00:56:39 <ihope> (Which I assure you doesn't mean what you interpreted it as.)
01:12:54 <tusho> It is impossible to translate true oklo texts.
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02:07:25 <tusho> ihope: Delayed much?
02:08:01 * ihope pops into #implang
02:08:23 <ihope> I don't remember any words. I need someone to remind me of them. :-P
02:08:34 <ihope> Well, I guess I could just consult the logs. But how boring.
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02:21:01 <ihope> Hmm, now I'll have to spout gibberish somewhere else.
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04:19:48 <augur> what are some good ways to verify TC-ness?
04:20:16 <augur> should i just try to implement a basic turing machine?
05:22:02 <augur> ive got some more stuff for the language
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05:50:35 <GregorR> It's usually easier to implement something which is itself equivalent to a Turing machine.
05:50:46 <GregorR> Such as Brainfuck, or lambda calculus (depending on the type of language)
05:52:32 <augur> | well im going to have lambdas, which i suppose means its TC?
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08:55:42 <oklopol> why the fuck would anyone wanna program in english? well, that kind of imperative verbose shit anyway, i guess it might be nice to be able to code like "make me an awesome 3d game"
09:14:06 <oklopol> tusho: why do non-internet-experienced people SOMETIMES ASK QUESTIONS IN ALL CAPS? <<< caps make more sense, i think they have the same dislike for characters with random sizes that i do
09:15:01 <oklopol> i wish small letters were the big ones, but small
09:17:29 <oklopol> tusho: What about an esolang designed for making electronic music? <<< been on it for some time
09:17:32 <oklopol> but i'm on so many thing i doubt i'll ever get down
09:18:35 <oklopol> okoing doesn't convey information, except the occasional "i don't really give a shit, hear me oko instead"
09:20:17 <oklopol> yay i like it when people shut up while i'm logreading
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12:25:04 <oklopol> about the flow thingie, here's some of my python interps output and sample code http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p335414614.txt
12:25:19 <oklopol> must be parsed manually atm
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13:36:02 <oklopol> ircbrowse says it's searchable, is it really? i can't search with it
13:40:14 <oklopol> 00:55:01 <ehird> slereah__: [08:49] <slereah__> Because Kronecker was a giant dick.
13:40:14 <oklopol> 00:55:07 <ehird> My mind read 'was' as 'had'
13:40:52 <Slereah7> And Osama quoted Kronecker in the instruction manual of Plain English :o
13:41:21 <oklopol> I WANNA SEARCH THE FUCKING LOGS
13:41:31 <oklopol> #esoteric logs are the only thing i've ever had to search
13:41:43 <Slereah7> site:[site of the logs] keywords
13:41:54 <oklopol> yes, but how to search so that it actually works?
13:42:51 <oklopol> Slereah site:http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
13:43:06 <oklopol> http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=http%3A%2F%2Ftunes.org%2F%7Enef%2Flogs%2Fesoteric&btnG=Google-haku&meta=
13:43:26 <oklopol> http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=Slereah+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ftunes.org%2F%7Enef%2Flogs%2Fesoteric&btnG=Hae&meta=
13:43:35 <Slereah7> http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Afr%3Aofficial&hs=AQk&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ftunes.org%2F%7Enef%2Flogs%2Fesoteric%2F&btnG=Rechercher&meta=
13:43:49 <Slereah7> Yeah, it doesn't seem to go into thelog files
13:44:12 <oklopol> asdadsasdasdasdasdasdsadasdsadasdsadsadsads
13:44:21 <oklopol> okay, i'll make the fucking python script
13:59:48 <oklopol> the first years of esoteric logs are basically lament's join/quit messages :D
14:00:31 <oklopol> so they're prolly not the first years
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14:17:15 <oklopol> hmm... why the fuck am i loading years i wasn't on this channel during
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14:28:11 <oklopol> i thought it was 99 or smth, don't know where i'd gotten that
14:32:06 <oklopol> 02:22:19 <lament> hm, there doesn't seem to be a mandelbrot generator in brainfuck <<< 03.01.21
14:32:12 <oklopol> lament: is that ready yet?
14:33:05 <oklopol> 02:22:22 <lament> i should fix that
14:33:11 <Slereah7> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b
14:34:44 <oklopol> well, i guess lament's way is to make others do stuff
14:34:52 <Slereah7> And IIRC, Lament has a terribly russian name.
14:36:16 <oklopol> lament, dbc and fizzie seem to be the only ones still active
14:38:13 <Slereah7> I don't remember the last time dbc or fizzie talked.
14:38:53 <oklopol> dbc is a bf wiz, fizzie is occasionally triggered by finland / finnish :P
14:38:57 <Slereah7> Oh, you mean from the olden days?
14:39:14 <oklopol> they are on the channel, and they're not full idlers
14:39:19 <Slereah7> Wait, that's not finnish enough.
14:39:26 <oklopol> so they are somewhat active
14:39:50 <oklopol> using characters finnish doesn't have *does* make it seem more finnish, yes
14:40:15 <Slereah7> It's a strange strange world, oklopol
14:40:21 <Slereah7> Especially when Finland is involved.
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14:48:21 <ihope_> I didn't know I was two people.
14:48:34 <ihope_> This probably has something to do with my IP address being 64.241.37.140, doesn't it?
14:49:04 <oklopol> ihope: now try to figure it out
14:49:19 <oklopol> you might wanna start with factoring out the numbers
14:49:52 <oklopol> Slereah7: yeah, your latter answer was correct
14:49:53 <Slereah7> Maybe the clue is in the XKCD number steps of its look-and-say sequence :o
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15:29:35 <Slereah7> ValueError: unichr() arg not in range(0x10000) (narrow Python build)
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15:37:15 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
15:37:56 <Slereah7> I think it's time to have oklopol commited
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16:06:37 <tusho> hhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
16:07:18 <Slereah7> Stop it. You sound like a power line.
16:08:39 <Slereah7> Like most awesome line, I stole it from Sam and Max.
16:10:15 <oklopol> i don't need friends anymore, i can just watch south park
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16:10:25 <oklopol> this /hop was like parting
16:10:30 <oklopol> because i don't need friends
16:10:39 <oklopol> but it wasn't a /part, because i didn't wanna miss anything
16:10:40 <Slereah7> South Park is getting too much libertarian.
16:10:55 <Slereah7> Fuck you Trey Parker, we get it you don't like taxes.
16:11:19 <Slereah7> Also known as "South Park republican" nowadays, FOR SOME REASON
16:12:07 <oklopol> all i care about is it surprises me, while making at least some sense
16:14:24 <Slereah7> The ham-fisted political propaganda just make me so mad :o
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16:20:13 <oklopol> but i've only seen the 12th season episodes about 2 times each
16:20:18 <oklopol> so i don't know those that well
16:20:32 <Slereah7> You haven't been paying attention then!
16:20:46 <Slereah7> Here's a hint : When they say "I've really learned something today!"
16:21:42 <oklopol> the addition of "really" does it?
16:21:47 <Slereah7> They're usually the summary of the episode's propaganda.
16:22:01 <Slereah7> In case the viewers are too stupid
16:22:14 <Slereah7> And after seeing the south park forum, I'm not sure what to think
16:22:41 <oklopol> the things i've learned something today contains are pretty middle in every way
16:22:57 <oklopol> and i've always assumed those are a joke
16:23:24 <tusho> oklopol: if it's south park presumably everything is a joke or near it
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16:25:34 <ais523> well, it worked, I think
16:25:38 <ais523> although it didn't shut down properly
16:25:42 <ais523> it got most of the way through shutdown, and then locked up with the caps lock and scroll lock lights flashing
16:25:50 <ais523> and wouldn't respond to anything, not even magic SysRq
16:25:57 <ais523> so I hard-rebooted and it seems fine now
16:26:10 <ais523> haven't tried re-shutting-down, yet, though, I hope it works this time
16:26:47 <tusho> ais523: you took only a segment of Augmatic Disport, so I'd say that's a pretty fast upgrade
16:27:04 <tusho> speaking of which I should upgrade to leopard
16:27:04 <ais523> well, it was only 85 packages
16:27:15 <ais523> that had got their dependencies muddled
16:27:49 <oklopol> Slereah7: if those are propaganda, then trey parker could be teaching @ any kindergarten
16:28:07 <tusho> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png
16:28:16 <oklopol> 'll continue to think "i've learned something today" is a joke
16:28:23 <tusho> (I linked it that way so that ais523 would click it)
16:28:30 <tusho> (But then you miss out on the alt text. Such is life!)
16:28:36 <tusho> (ais523 has refused to be caught up in the xkcd trap before)
16:28:58 <ais523> tusho: is it a good one? most of xkcd doesn't look all that good
16:29:08 <ais523> some are very funny, but they tend to get linked everywhere anyway
16:29:17 <ais523> so I come across them without the need to visit xkcd
16:29:21 <tusho> ais523: I like most of xkcd, personally
16:29:27 <tusho> but- a lot of them are crap until you read the title text
16:29:32 <tusho> which is, well, the whole point
16:32:02 <tusho> though I guess it's kind of love-hate (say, like dinosaur comics, but less dividing)
16:33:13 <Slereah7> Good thing that XKCD has those awesome graphics when the joke isn't funny.
16:33:19 <Slereah7> You can just sit back and admire.
16:33:24 <tusho> Slereah7: Oh shush you.
16:33:43 <oklopol> xkcd usually makes bad jokes funny
16:33:58 <oklopol> (just like south park, btw :P)
16:34:10 <Slereah7> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/2/28/Epic_thread12s.jpg
16:34:27 <tusho> xkcd is divided pretty evenly between bad jokes made funny, good but incredibly geeky jokes, and multi-part comics that don't have punchlines but are still funny
16:34:36 <tusho> so, uh, there's not that much more left :P
16:36:13 <Slereah7> What about those horrible emo comics?
16:36:42 <tusho> Slereah7: but they aren't emo!
16:36:43 <tusho> they fall into the last category.
16:36:45 <Slereah7> The ones about LOVE that don't include 3 lines of equations
16:37:16 <tusho> Slereah7: I think this is a case of 'you didn't get it'
16:37:43 <tusho> unless you're making a joke yourself
16:37:45 <tusho> which would be confusing
16:38:28 <tusho> I've had a conversation with 16 levels of sarcasm before
16:38:35 <tusho> but I've never had infinite levels of anything
16:39:49 <oklopol> okay i admit this sp episode was propaganda :P "you can't change history", fuck you trey, we don't care about your sick beliefs!
16:40:06 <tusho> oklopol: clearly he has never heard of the doctor
16:40:26 <oklopol> Slereah7: the red badge of redness
16:40:49 <Slereah7> Season 1-3 aren't very much propaganda.
16:41:28 <dbc> ais53 did you figure out what depth of brackets you need to write a brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck? I was guessing 2.
16:41:39 <tusho> ais523 (to cause a ping to happen)
16:41:45 <ais523> 2 wouldn't surprise me
16:41:52 <ais523> I suspect it's 2, 3 or 4
16:41:58 <tusho> Well, I would have said like 3 or 4...
16:42:18 <tusho> I mean I didn't think dei would be TC.
16:42:33 <tusho> So matching thingies are overrated.
16:43:40 * tusho forks conversation, tags as 'innuendo' and 'brainfuck'
16:43:49 <tusho> (YES I CAN PRETEND I HAVE ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED THINGS I THINK OF AIS523)
16:44:06 <ais523> tusho: nah, you'd have to tag each individual comment
16:44:28 <tusho> ais523: it was said in a 'LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU'
16:44:32 <tusho> I wouldn't have to
16:44:46 <tusho> since they don't need to be explicitly retagged
16:44:52 <tusho> they can just flow into another tag
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17:42:34 <tusho> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-diff-20080610/
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17:48:29 <tusho> beh, I just lost the game
17:49:41 <tusho> ais523: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22741
17:49:49 <tusho> specifically, this edit: http://forums.xkcd.com/download/file.php?id=4491
17:50:46 <ais523> that thread's sort of a MFD thread in reverse
17:50:58 <tusho> MFD is unfortunately back
17:51:07 <tusho> Alex is some kind of delusional idiot
17:51:11 <tusho> did he think we really liked it?
17:51:19 <ais523> I don't think he thinks we do
17:52:22 <ais523> but I think he still has a reason for putting it there
17:52:22 <tusho> so what, he hates us with a passion?
17:52:22 <ais523> possibly a non-obvious one
17:52:22 <ais523> maybe he likes the user-created comics
17:52:23 <tusho> ais523: maybe if you read every single one in a certain way
17:52:23 <tusho> there's a stenographic encryption code
17:52:23 <tusho> and Alex is in fact kidnapped
17:52:23 <tusho> but if the encryption code to their doors lock systems are revealed
17:52:23 <tusho> then the fake Alex would be killed by the fbi
17:52:23 <tusho> so he has to encode them by modifying MFD comics subtly before he publishes them
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17:56:01 <tusho> ais523: is that the sound of the fbi agents in here furiously tracking me down
17:56:01 <ais523> they don't make a noise when you do that
17:56:01 <ais523> that's the sound of all the journalists following them around
17:56:05 <tusho> sometimes i hate being right
17:57:23 <tusho> "Interesting. I find MFD to be absolutely hysterical" -Alex
17:57:41 <tusho> i always knew it was wrong for a msftie to run tdwtf
17:57:55 <ais523> what, did you email him
17:58:07 <ais523> or where did you get that comment of Alex's from?
17:58:19 <tusho> which is, as oft pointed out, the real WTF
18:01:37 <tusho> based on a post from that forum
18:01:40 <tusho> I had a dinosaur-comicsy idea
18:01:48 <tusho> you use the same art every day, but you improve it a little every day
18:01:57 <tusho> i.e. start really rough
18:01:59 <tusho> end up really polished
18:02:02 <tusho> then, you draw a new scene
18:02:03 <Slereah7> tusho : but what if you don't?
18:02:06 <tusho> and start all over again
18:04:53 <tusho> "While it may *seem* like copy-paste comicing, it's polymorphism. You see, the later (1.8) inherits from the former (1.3)." -- Alex
18:04:55 <tusho> totally delusional
18:05:09 <ais523> no, that's clearly a joke
18:05:17 <tusho> but it's also a bad one
18:05:21 <tusho> and dodging the question
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18:08:45 <tusho> ais523: "Also, you may have noticed that DoctorFriday was absent from the commentors. This was for good reason: Mark Bowytz is DoctorFriday. "
18:08:46 <tusho> are DoctorFriday's posts as bad as his comics?
18:10:05 * Hiato wonders if the silence is a good time for another shameless plug
18:10:13 * Hiato reaches a resolution
18:10:18 <tusho> ais523: what the hell, can you only reply with images to that MFD page?
18:10:26 <tusho> so people are taking screenshots of text editors
18:10:59 <tusho> http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1583/psinbmpgm5.jpg HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
18:12:21 <Hiato> <shameless plug> updated the language doccies so there is now an actual reference to check your grammar against and coherent rules, still on http://eyo.icr38.net/phorum </shameless plug>
18:12:21 <tusho> http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1834/omgwtfbbqnx8.jpg oh jeez
18:12:21 <tusho> Hiato: what language
18:12:21 <tusho> proglang or conlang
18:12:21 <Hiato> the spoken/written one :P
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20:27:18 <Slereah> Earlier grouping symbols are after the year 1000, apparently
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21:01:35 <Slereah7> I'm not using any language that has "prout" in its instruction set.
21:01:45 <Slereah7> ("Prout" means "fart" in French)
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21:21:55 <tusho> Slereah7: I think it means Print Out here
21:23:49 <Slereah7> But it still means fart in French
21:51:03 <augur> netsplits are my enemy >|
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22:53:24 <oklopol> augur: did you look at the interp?
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22:55:20 <oklofok> augur: did you look at the interp?
22:55:21 <oklofok> if you have ideas for flow control, i'll gladly add
22:56:11 <augur> yeah i looked at it and didnt understand. :)
22:56:51 <oklofok> where guard can be omitted
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23:02:00 <augur> nothing after no no stop
23:02:13 <augur> wellnowwhat.net/transfers/reactance_ideas.rtf
23:04:03 <oklopol> you've never seen a message sent by me?
23:04:26 <augur> augur: no no stop :P
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23:08:44 <oklopol> i'll check the logs i guess
23:08:56 <augur> you read the ideas?
23:09:42 <oklopol> as an esolang guy i find pure lambdas a bit impure
23:09:46 <augur> i added in some haskel-like functional stuff
23:09:57 <augur> pure lambdas a bit impure?
23:10:59 <augur> i think the functions are actually relevant. firstly, the way they work is obviously just shorthand for some reaction form
23:11:05 <augur> so like i said, something like
23:11:15 <augur> gets processed down into x*2 -> y
23:11:19 <augur> because foo v = v*v
23:11:57 <augur> the pattern matching is just an extension on decomposition
23:12:22 <augur> if 2,3 -> a,b is equivalent to 2 -> a, 3 -> b
23:12:39 <augur> then why cant [2,3] -> [x,y] be similar?
23:13:32 <oklopol> i just don't like the idea of non-flow definition of functions :D
23:13:43 <augur> well, they're just shorthands tho, remember
23:13:50 <augur> x*x isn't flow related
23:14:12 <augur> f x = x*x is just shorthand
23:14:36 <augur> plus, we need some primitive funtions for doing stuff like math, or delays
23:14:37 <oklopol> higher order reactions for functions: ([a] * 5 -> [r]) -> foo; foo 5
23:14:46 <oklopol> where [] is the port syntax
23:15:04 <oklopol> something like this i wouldn't mind
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23:15:58 <augur> that looks more like an actual function tho
23:16:07 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho.
23:16:17 <augur> foo = [a] * 5 -> [r]
23:16:29 <augur> foo = lambda a. a*5
23:18:27 <augur> because foo 5 isn't a reaction
23:18:33 <augur> to make it reactional you'd need something like
23:18:39 <oklopol> that's just syntax for executing the reactions inside f
23:19:03 <oklopol> it's a functional way to use that, yes
23:19:50 <oklopol> that is just a syntactical difference
23:20:05 <oklopol> my way lets you use foo as a function, but keeps it all nice and pure
23:20:15 <augur> come up with an evaluation trace for that method tho
23:20:28 <augur> i'd need to see it
23:20:36 <augur> because i dont see how it'd work.
23:21:13 <oklopol> umm, isn't it kinda trivial
23:21:18 <oklopol> you execute the reactions of foo
23:21:26 <oklopol> but [a] and [r] have a special meaning
23:21:42 <oklopol> they will be removed from the global reaction stack after foo
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23:26:29 <tusho> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Turing_Duck_Test
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23:49:22 <tusho> oklopol: we should code a random implementation of something
23:49:25 <tusho> without thinking about the language
23:49:38 <tusho> and just see what happens
23:50:05 <oklopol> i'm thinking about making this collaborative text editor
23:50:12 <tusho> oklopol: they already exist
23:50:47 <tusho> oklopol: check pms
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00:31:01 <augur> but i dont know about the [] notation
00:31:07 <augur> maybe something else
00:31:17 <augur> like.. `a or something?
00:32:23 <augur> for the special keywords in the reactions
00:32:53 <oklopol> well they were the port syntax
00:33:06 <augur> well lets not call them ports, thats a weird name :P
00:33:08 <oklopol> i guess you could just have them in a preset var
00:33:38 <augur> what i think we should do is something like ` or @
00:33:49 <augur> @ is good because its for the arguments
00:34:32 <augur> ofcourse, destructuring: @[x,y] -> ![y,x]
00:35:12 <augur> so multiple return variables instead of just one
00:35:57 <oklopol> @ could just mean it's the upper level var
00:36:28 <oklopol> well yeah, the thingie outside the function body
00:36:42 <augur> ahm, i dont know if ![y,x] would work, but for inputs it'd work as pattern matching
00:37:54 <oklopol> this would be the 100% reactional way to do functions
00:38:03 <oklopol> but it doesn't let you add math support
00:38:40 <augur> sure, math support would be simple
00:38:55 <oklopol> (@ -> !) -> foo, where @ and ! are special vars with which you could do foo 5 == 5
00:39:12 <oklopol> because @ would be what foo is applied to, and ! the return
00:39:32 <oklopol> but, you could simultaneously do global changes with @ and ! accessing the upper level
00:39:36 <augur> eh well i think we'd need to go over this in a bit more detail
00:39:39 <augur> gimme a few for that
00:39:40 <oklopol> although you only need one char for that tbh
00:40:00 <oklopol> first of all we just need @, a var prefix meaning "upper context"
00:40:08 <oklopol> upper context -> upper context;
00:40:18 <oklopol> (inner context -> inner context) -> upper context;
00:42:07 <oklopol> that was just an explanation of inner / outer context
00:42:31 <oklopol> so, usually, inside a function body, all variables are local
00:42:40 <oklopol> @ takes them off the upper context
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00:46:24 <augur> ok so heres how i envision it, right
00:46:33 <augur> you define some function
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00:48:02 <augur> eh no.. sorry, now that im thinking about it i cant think of a way to do it without defining args seperate from other parts
00:48:21 <augur> i mean, with that, it's fine
00:49:07 <augur> foo = @(a,b,c): a+b+c -> !
00:49:42 <augur> but you'd need to do it that way because you need to be able to map input values to the function to their respective parts
00:49:53 <oklopol> foo = ([a,b,c] = @; a+b+c -> @) in my way
00:50:03 <oklopol> now you can use "foo [5,4,3]"
00:50:22 <augur> well [a,b,c] = @ wouldnt work but
00:50:59 <oklopol> except it's not pushed in the reaction list
00:51:02 <augur> ok then we can just do it like this
00:53:10 <augur> n*(fac n-1) -> ! )
00:53:16 <augur> hows that for the factorial?
00:53:52 <oklopol> except still, you can use the same char for both output and input
00:53:52 <augur> fac n -> blah being shorthand for (n -> fac) -> blah
00:54:13 <augur> should we do that? same char?
00:54:28 <oklopol> if we do, then we can do @var = upper var
00:54:38 <augur> what does that mean??
00:54:44 <augur> tusho: its language design!
00:54:52 <oklopol> augur: look-up from outside the function
00:55:00 <oklopol> tusho: i already did this morning
00:55:09 <oklopol> except the changes being made now
00:55:26 <oklopol> you can implement those before they're fully decided on!
00:56:26 <augur> i dont understand, what do you mean look-up from outside the function?
00:57:24 <augur> eh.. no. you mean the get to variables outside the body of the function??
00:57:36 <augur> no, its unnecessary. we can just use lexical scoping
00:57:41 <oklopol> well yeah, look-up from outside the function
00:58:10 <oklopol> because there's no way to declare a var
00:58:17 <augur> we dont need to declare
00:58:30 <augur> variables are just lexical scope
00:58:59 <oklopol> okay, so on right side, inner, on left side, upper?
00:59:35 <oklopol> func = (x -> x); <<< left = outer, right = inner
00:59:57 <augur> hm.. no i see your point actually
01:00:19 <augur> let me think about this for a second
01:00:21 <oklopol> it's mostly a problem when setting a bar
01:00:26 <augur> because scheme has lexical scope and doesnt have this issue. :P
01:00:31 <oklopol> you want to be able to set a var in both upper and inner
01:00:50 <oklopol> because upper is the pure, reactional way, which we're just making a syntactic convenience over with @
01:00:56 <tusho> augur: because it seperates definition and setting
01:00:58 <tusho> that's what you should do
01:01:01 <tusho> seperate definition and setting.
01:01:14 <oklopol> yeah, i did the =/-> separation with oklotalk
01:01:27 <oklopol> pretty much the same thing for this same scoping issue
01:01:31 <augur> if a variable is located in a higher environment, e.g. the environment the reaction was defined, then it refers to that variable
01:01:50 <oklopol> tusho: that's not what we should do
01:02:30 <oklopol> augur: yeah, so i suggest @ for outer, because it's not used much, and it's semantically nice if it exists with the @ syntax thing for defining "functions"
01:03:10 <oklopol> tusho: variables can be used before they're made, so definition/setting is hard to separate
01:03:19 <augur> foo 10 // error: y is undefined
01:03:22 <tusho> oklopol: thats' ok.
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01:03:57 <oklopol> augur: for look-up, that's okay, the issue is with setting
01:04:30 <augur> you want to set variables outside of scope that are not already defined?
01:04:37 <augur> i would say, not allowed. :)
01:04:58 <oklopol> but i don't want to set the outer scope variables that are already defined automatically in the inner scope
01:05:41 <augur> i disagree, i'd say it should. (3 -> x) is defined in the environment where x is also defined
01:05:54 <augur> so the x inside (3 -> x) should refer to the x in that environment
01:06:46 <oklopol> except *definitions* have scope
01:06:57 <augur> what do you mean definitions have scope?
01:07:13 <oklopol> if you declare a var in an inner scope, it doesn't exist in the outer one
01:07:48 <oklopol> if a variable is set, it's global in all inner scopes
01:07:56 <oklopol> that's essentially global.
01:08:05 <oklopol> all the same drawbacks afaict
01:08:08 <augur> give me code examples
01:08:12 <augur> i dont see what you mean
01:08:45 <oklopol> x will always refer to that x in any inner scope
01:09:07 <augur> foo = ( ... x ... )
01:09:29 <oklopol> why do you keep asking what an inner scope is?
01:09:44 <augur> because your use is kind of odd. :P
01:10:01 <augur> yes, that x is the original x
01:10:10 <augur> so inside foo, at this point, x == 5
01:10:18 <oklopol> "x will always refer to that x in any inner scope" is recursive in that you can have nested inner scopes
01:10:27 <oklopol> so you're polluting the namespace for all the inner dudes
01:10:42 <augur> its just lexical scope.
01:10:43 <oklopol> even though you rarely actually set upper scope vars
01:11:04 <oklopol> you usually just read them
01:11:18 <augur> sure, but theres no way really to get around that
01:11:45 <oklopol> but this is really just the def/set difference problem tusho mentioned ages ago, and i solved much before that
01:12:23 <oklopol> i should start doing my stuff
01:12:27 <tusho> oklopol: FIREFOX 3 IS AWESOME
01:12:36 <augur> you'd need to have @x in the definition of foo in order to access the higher x
01:12:45 <augur> which i think is silly
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01:15:30 <oklopol> anyway, so about the @ thing
01:15:33 <oklopol> func = (@ * 5 -> @); func arg -> res
01:15:37 <oklopol> inXXX = arg; func = (inXXX * 5 -> outXXX); res = outXXX;
01:15:53 <oklopol> basically, that functions are just syntax for these kinds of dummy vars
01:16:14 <oklopol> well, @inXXX / @outXXX is my suggestion, still
01:16:43 <oklopol> it's not like it takes more to type, and it's conceptually nice given that semantics for @
01:17:45 <oklopol> that is still not that pure, because you have to choose how to use the function @ creation
01:18:08 <oklopol> also, you just need one dummy now that i come to think of it
01:18:28 <oklopol> s/((out)|(in))XXX/dummyXXX
01:18:39 <oklopol> (XXX is some unique number)
01:19:02 <oklopol> i wonder if i'm online atm
01:19:49 <tusho> oklopol: yes you are
01:22:08 <oklopol> also if you have a line containing just "function" mean "merge function's reaction list with current scope's"
01:22:16 <augur> yeah, function syntax is just sugar for reaction creation using dummy variables
01:22:20 <oklopol> then you can use that for simultaneous reaction additions
01:23:12 <augur> oklopol, i suggest we provide further sugar, actually. i'd rather foo n = blah rather than foo = ( @ -> n ... blah )
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01:24:31 <oklopol> 5 -> x; (x - 1 -> x; x -> y) y -> output
01:24:37 <tusho> augur: oklopol, i suggest we provide further sugar, actually. i'd rather foo n = blah rather than foo = ( @ -> n ... blah )
01:25:35 <augur> well im going to have it in my implementation. :p
01:25:45 <oklopol> letting you *use* "func n" is pretty crucial, and essential for pureness considering we have mathematical functions already
01:26:14 <augur> well in okloreact you dont have to have it but i'm going to have it in my implementation. :p
01:26:16 <oklopol> defining it has no need to be... well haskell
01:27:00 <augur> haskell is just lisp with optional parens. :)
01:27:28 <augur> fac n? really just (fac n)
01:27:43 <augur> which looks exactly like (fac (fac n))
01:28:06 <tusho> especially re: currying
01:28:13 <tusho> (a b c) is not ((a b) c) in lisp
01:28:14 <augur> but i like to pretend i'm not ;)
01:28:22 <oklopol> tusho: don't assume stupidity, do like me and agree :|
01:28:31 <augur> i know, tusho, im being silly
01:28:33 <tusho> oklopol: I always assume stupidity. :D
01:28:52 <oklopol> tusho: indeed you do, and often you're right, but please try and save it for the noobs :D
01:29:00 <oklopol> well i guess augur is a bit of a noob
01:29:54 <augur> ::sucks oklopols pointed finger:: =d
01:30:20 <oklopol> ...right, i'm already nekkid
01:30:26 <augur> ::sits on oklopols lap::
01:30:36 <Slereah> What is this, Alan Turing's house?
01:30:45 <oklopol> oh god i'm so jacking off right now
01:30:53 <oklopol> what were we talking about?
01:31:33 <augur> oklopol is going to cum in my ass, do you have a problem with this slereah?
01:31:40 <oklopol> Slereah: this is alan turing's house for *two* reasons
01:31:59 <Slereah> Is the second that you're going to become an hero?
01:32:03 <oklopol> one of them is your mother
01:32:11 <oklopol> and they're having hot lesbian sex
01:32:31 <oklopol> augur: do gays like lesbian action?
01:33:58 <augur> oklopol: no. lol. why would we?
01:34:41 <oklopol> dunno, i like icecream but i don't have sex with it
01:34:46 <oklopol> well i try, but my cock get's numb
01:34:51 <tusho> it's hard to figure out who is actually gay in #esoteric.
01:34:59 <augur> tusho: everyone, duh.
01:35:13 <tusho> except, like, really.
01:35:47 <augur> slereah and i are gay, oklopol is bi
01:36:02 <augur> and if you cant handle that, we're going to have to rape you.
01:36:06 <tusho> oklopol: no, but it would help the conversations be less confusing
01:36:20 <augur> this is #esoteric and you want LESS confusion?
01:36:33 <tusho> oklopol just got PROFILED
01:36:51 <oklopol> well fuck my ass and call me britney, so i did!
01:37:23 <Slereah> "Relations between pure and applied mathematicians are based on trust and understanding. Namely, pure mathematicians do not trust applied mathematicians, and applied mathematicians do not understand pure mathematicians."
01:37:53 <tusho> oklopol: you fucked your ass and called you britney?
01:38:01 <Slereah> "Mathematicians stand on each other's shoulders while computer scientists stand on each other's toes. "
01:38:16 <Slereah> "It has been said that physicists stand on one another's shoulders. If this is the case, then programmers stand on one another's toes, and software engineers dig each other's graves. "
01:39:07 <augur> slereah: lol nice quote :)
01:39:28 <Slereah> http://www.math.utah.edu/~cherk/mathjokes.html
01:39:34 <augur> have you heard the one
01:39:43 <tusho> i'm going to convert that into fortune(1) format.
01:40:14 <augur> biologists like to pretend they're chemists, chemists like to pretend they're physicists, physicists like to pretend they're god, and god likes to pretend he's a mathematician
01:40:48 <Slereah> Yeah, it was in today's XKCD.
01:40:49 <tusho> biologists like to pretend they're chemists, chemists like to pretend they're physicists, physicists like to pretend they're dog, and dog likes to pretend he's a mathematician
01:40:57 <augur> well not quite that one, slereah
01:40:59 <tusho> Slereah: It's "xkcd".
01:41:02 <augur> tho this one is older
01:42:10 <augur> we should make reactoscheme
01:42:26 <augur> add reactions to scheme
01:42:32 <augur> have <- be a special form
01:44:31 <augur> (urin -> slereah's mouth)
01:44:49 <tusho> it tastes like urin
01:45:23 <oklopol> but prolly has a urin-e taste too
01:45:32 <augur> so, what are you guys's majors?
01:46:00 <oklopol> tusho: don't answer, it's depressing to hear
01:46:42 <augur> oklopol, have you watched any of the open course ware stuff from MIT?
01:46:48 <augur> or berkeley's equivalent?
01:47:04 <augur> slereah, have you read SICM?
01:47:46 <augur> structure and interpretation of classical mechanics
01:48:02 <Slereah> I get enough mechanics at school.
01:48:10 <augur> its lagrangian mechanics taught as tho it were a scheme lib.
01:48:26 <tusho> majors? bah! you ancient folk.
01:48:29 <augur> when i say "as tho" what i mean is you actually write a scheme lib. :p
01:48:55 <Slereah> Feh. I bet you can't even build a time machine with it.
01:49:07 <augur> its scheme, ofcourse you can
01:49:18 <augur> (define tm (time-machine))
01:49:19 <Slereah> You have to use the relativistic Lagrangian for that!
01:53:24 <oklopol> okay, after a long discussion in priv with tusho, we decided it would be best to try and crush your hopes and dreams by revealing he's 12, and already owns you at most things
01:54:09 <augur> ::pulls up in a van with blacked out windows::
01:54:12 <augur> hey kid, want some candy?
01:54:53 <augur> have you heard that vent chat where this little 11 year old is playing with some 20+s
01:55:17 <augur> some thing the WOWers use to voice chat
01:55:28 <augur> go onto youtube and search for ventrillo harassment
01:55:47 <oklopol> is it the one where he cries when his parents close the game?
01:55:48 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:48 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:49 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:52 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:53 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:55 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:57 <Slereah> Do you enjoy gladiator movies?
01:56:08 <augur> Gladiator was a good movie
01:56:22 <Slereah> Ever been in a Turkish prison?
01:56:40 <augur> tusho can come to my turkish prison any time he wants
01:56:49 <tusho> that's some contrived innuendo there
01:57:06 <Slereah> What, you never saw the movie "Airplane"?
01:57:06 <augur> actually no, i really do have a turkish prison
01:57:15 <augur> Airplane, REALLY good movie
01:57:41 <augur> i should watch airplane again
01:57:44 <augur> i havent seen it in ages
01:58:09 <oklopol> why watch airplane when you can just wiggle your toes and watch them?
01:58:20 <augur> aww, oklopol is so cute
01:58:21 <tusho> oklopol: intriguing
01:58:31 <augur> ::glomps oklopol:: you're so cute
01:58:34 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
01:58:45 <oklopol> my toes are quite cute, i have to admit.
01:58:54 <augur> i demand pictures of oklofeet
01:59:05 <augur> and masturbation material.
01:59:06 <oklopol> augur: i hear you're a bottom, shouldn't you be more into the rugged manly type?
01:59:19 <augur> i am a bottom, but no.
01:59:33 <Slereah> oklopol : augur's taste in men is dorks, from what I can see
01:59:33 <augur> just cause i like cock in my ass doesnt mean i like the rugged manly type
02:01:29 <oklopol> i guess i'm being a bit black-and-white
02:02:04 <Slereah> What are you, a half-nigger?
02:02:49 <oklopol> tbh i'm a fucking polyhedron
02:02:51 <augur> i'd do a zebra. such a big hard cock... mmm
02:03:13 <oklopol> Slereah: are you saying i'm a dork, or is it just for the guys he actually gets?
02:03:15 <Slereah> This is turning into #isharia
02:03:26 <Slereah> Well, he showed me his dream boy
02:03:31 <Slereah> He looks like a total dork
02:03:32 <augur> oklopol: he's saying that since i find you hot, you must be a dork
02:04:08 <tusho> i'm totally out of the loop on #esoteric. everyone seems to come from one or two irc channels and I only know about one of them :p
02:04:16 <augur> from wikipedia: "USA slang for a quirky, silly and/or stupid, socially inept person, or one who is out of touch with contemporary trends"
02:04:28 <oklopol> tusho: i just know #eso ppl on freenode.
02:04:42 <oklopol> came here for this channel, i mainly just idle on my other chans
02:04:47 <augur> you've followed me to like four other rooks, oklopol, dont lie
02:04:54 <tusho> oklopol: well, it seems half of everyone here is from Sine
02:04:54 <augur> you're in #proglangdesign RIGHT THIS MINUTE
02:05:03 <tusho> and the other half is from some place called #isharia
02:05:07 <tusho> and the third half is random crap
02:05:09 <oklopol> oh, well ok, i guess #proglangdesign would be just as interesting given more content
02:05:22 <augur> yeah, #proglangdesign is slow :(
02:05:34 <oklopol> tusho: sgeo is from there, and has recruited ppl there
02:05:41 <tusho> oklopol: yeah I know
02:05:41 <Slereah> Well, SimonRC doesn't talk anymore
02:05:44 <tusho> i've been on sine a few times
02:05:47 <tusho> and SimonRC does so talk.
02:05:48 <augur> oklopol, i wanna create a parser for a language with movement. :O
02:05:59 <tusho> is here from #isharia too, I seem to recall him mentioning it at one point
02:06:26 <Slereah> We're like the three musketeers, except we're not four
02:06:53 <tusho> SimonRC was active like a few days ago.
02:07:10 <oklopol> but yeah, i've prolly been active actively for the longest now
02:07:14 <tusho> anyway, I had no idea about Sine until I saw a screenshot with it on sgeo's website which I was poking around
02:07:20 <tusho> and then someone told me the address a bit later
02:07:57 <oklopol> well i guess ihope and ais523 are active
02:08:19 <Dewi> wow, the people who wrote that wikipedia article on dorks are real dorks
02:08:32 <oklopol> because IHOPE IS 15 AND OWNS ALL YOU YOU IN MATH.
02:08:45 <tusho> and I'M 12 AND I OWN YOU ALL IN BEING ANNOYING.
02:09:17 <Slereah> tusho : Don't make me use my trolling gear
02:09:23 <tusho> Slereah: you always use it.
02:09:34 <tusho> is that even possible
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02:10:20 <augur> oklopol depresses me. :\
02:10:43 <augur> because you'd be a great boyfriend. :P
02:10:55 <oklopol> we'd be so great together!
02:10:59 <augur> i hate your girlfriend :(
02:11:06 <oklopol> we could code together all night and have sex on the side...
02:11:24 <tusho> ^^ the beginning of a long lasting relationship ^^
02:11:28 <oklopol> i guess i'm being a bit mean... or sexy?
02:14:05 <Slereah7> So tusho, what do you want to be when you grow up
02:14:17 <tusho> Slereah7: A PEDOPHILE!
02:14:30 <Slereah7> You can't, the market is full.
02:14:55 <tusho> All my hopes and dreams.
02:15:23 <oklopol> tusho: do what i did, take pictures of yourself now, so you can jack off to them when you're an incest-loving old gay pedophile
02:15:39 <tusho> oklopol: hey now that's a clever idea!
02:16:09 <Slereah7> Film yourself eating some feces, just in case you grow up to be into pedoscat
02:16:29 <tusho> no, I'll have perfected my photoshoop skills by then
02:17:18 <oklopol> i guess in case you turn out to be a pedocoprophiliac you might wanna put some feces in the freezer or smth.
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02:18:13 <oklopol> hmm, #esoteric-sex might be more feasible nowadays
02:18:18 <oklopol> used to be just me and bsmnt
02:18:58 <tusho> couldn't that just be
02:19:09 <tusho> which is, uh, the offtopic counterpart to #esoteric
02:19:11 <Slereah> Couldn't that just be #esoteric
02:19:13 <tusho> tho mostly only used for bawtz.
02:19:35 <oklopol> Slereah: well sure, except some might not enjoy the filth
02:19:45 <oklopol> wonder who these some are.
02:20:05 <tusho> oklopol: ais523 doesn't really like it
02:20:10 <tusho> that's why he leaves quite often
02:20:27 <oklopol> and prolly oerjie too, but he's a full-time idler anyways nowadays
02:21:31 <oklopol> tusho: has he actually said that?
02:21:46 <tusho> yes, in #ESO or somewhere
02:21:48 <oklopol> or just left when someone has been naughty?
02:23:41 <oklopol> i guess all irc channels have the same issue
02:23:57 <oklopol> except on bigger ones there is the occasional "stop, that's disgusting"
02:24:13 <tusho> well, it IS a bit of a problem here
02:24:15 <tusho> I mean, it's amusing
02:24:20 <tusho> but, you know, we could talk about esolangs sometime.
02:24:24 <tusho> and actually keep on topic.
02:25:19 <Slereah> Well, if you know priority symbols from before 1202, I could work them somewhere in Arithmetica!
02:25:36 <Slereah> Programming without parenthesis or PN is a pain in the ass.
02:25:47 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Arithmetica
02:27:50 <Slereah> But that seems like troubles.
02:28:07 <Slereah> Of course, looking for mathematics from the third century is too, in a way
02:28:24 <augur> afk watching CS61C
02:28:52 <oklopol> Slereah: so it's basically a way to denote equations and shit?
02:28:53 <Slereah> Mathematics from the olden day was horrible to read
02:29:09 <Slereah> oklopol : Well, that's mostly what Arithmetica was
02:29:25 <augur> slereah: what if mathematics today is horrible to read compared to math from 4000 AD?
02:29:29 <Slereah> The first book to have mathematical notation, but it was mostly created for equations.
02:29:52 <Slereah> It's from Diophantus, the guy that gave his name to diophantine equations
02:30:15 <oklopol> i derived the way to solve those recently
02:30:35 <Slereah> You can't solve generally diophantine equations
02:30:48 <oklopol> err then i'm thinking of something else
02:31:29 <Slereah> I think it's just polynoms.
02:31:55 <Slereah> "In mathematics, a Diophantine equation is an indeterminate polynomial equation that allows the variables to be integers only."
02:32:29 <oklopol> i thought it was just the simple form that had the name
02:32:44 <Slereah> "In 1970, a novel result in mathematical logic known as Matiyasevich's theorem settled the problem negatively: in general Diophantine problems are unsolvable."
02:33:04 <oklopol> well they could've been solvable for integers
02:33:31 <oklopol> because there's not X-jection integer -> real
02:34:07 <Slereah> Well, it doesn't matter a lot
02:34:16 <Slereah> There's no constructive set of reals.
02:34:47 <Slereah> "Diophantine equivalents of undecidable proposition"
02:34:58 <oklopol> i'm justt saying the lack of that jection (supply correct term pls) means it's not a trivial result
02:36:40 <Slereah> "Thus there exists a statement about the solutions of a diophantine equation which is not decidable in our formal system."
02:36:52 <Slereah> Hm. Maybe the dude showed it was impossible in general
02:37:09 <Slereah> Of course, it would be true for all formal system
02:37:32 <Slereah> Well, not all mathematical problems have to be solved by formal systems
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02:53:45 <Slereah> I sometimes see that esolangs are used for educational purposes
02:53:50 <Slereah> But are there any examples?
02:56:28 <tusho> Slereah: not really.
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14:37:34 <Hiato> Anyone alive [that can help with regexps]?
14:38:51 <Hiato> yay, well essentially, if I want to pass only strings that don't contain two letters specified in an array, in immediate succession, what kind of logic must I use?
14:39:09 <Hiato> say the array is ['a','b','c']
14:39:23 <Hiato> I want adbec to pass, but abd to fail etc
14:39:57 <Hiato> I can only get as far as +{1,5}?
14:40:00 <Hiato> which is not right
14:40:04 <Hiato> PS: it's in python
14:42:10 <Hiato> as in, oklopol, I'm a total newcomer to it in Python, so don't expect me to be much help ;)
14:43:55 <oklopol> def check(l):return all(map(lambda(a,b):abs(ord(a)-ord(b))!=1,zip(l,l[1:])))
14:44:41 <Hiato> right, you get the following:
14:44:42 <Hiato> temp1 = ['abc','abd','adb']
14:44:42 <Hiato> for p in range(len(temp1)): if someOKLOPOLmagic: pop(temp1(p))
14:44:42 <Hiato> the condition being, you cannot have more than one of anything in tempt 2 together in anything in temp1
14:47:53 <Hiato> wait, the condition is way too complicated for a regexp
14:48:01 <Hiato> actually, nevermind
14:48:07 <Hiato> but thanks anyway :)
14:48:24 * Hiato sets out to do it procedurally
14:49:30 <oklopol> i have no idea what magid this is
14:49:53 <oklopol> but, it's possible i misunderstood what you needed
14:50:11 <oklopol> check tells you whether a string/list contains characters one apart from each other
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18:26:57 <tusho> speaking of which, this channel will be logged soon
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18:27:14 <lament> hopefully it already is, no?.. by clog?
18:28:04 <tusho> lament: but not in a convenient interface
18:28:18 <lament> there's irseek for that :)
18:28:27 <tusho> lament: I've already expressed my objections to irseek.
18:28:33 <tusho> Besides, mine will import all the logs clog did.
18:30:06 <tusho> lament: what on earth is the correct response to 'yarly' without 'orly' before it?
18:30:13 <tusho> 'orly' or 'nowai' or 'YOU GOT IT WRONG DAMNIT'
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18:54:55 <Slereah7> Which should be answered by "HABEEB IT!"
19:09:32 <oklopol> wtf @ http://dagobah.biz/flash/the_worlds_hardest_game.swf
19:11:06 <oklopol> bimonthly take-out-the-trash ->
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19:16:43 <Slereah7> oklopol : Try "I want to be the guy"
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19:33:19 <oklopol> is it the beta build i'm supposed to load?
19:33:28 <oklopol> http://kayin.pyoko.org/iwbtg/downloads.php tell me what to click
19:34:22 <tusho> oklopol: IWTBG Beta Build Frame Skip
19:34:29 <tusho> or if your machine is ANCIENT, Slomo (I use frame skip.)
19:34:41 <tusho> oklopol: Then, put it on the desktop or something and run it.
19:35:15 <tusho> And then, kill yourself without playing it.
19:36:41 <oklopol> i'm getting 4.5 kb/s, so may take a while before i can try that
19:36:59 <tusho> Click Here to Download Demo!
19:37:15 <tusho> it includes the first 3 bosses ... which take like weeks of determined practice to get to anyway
19:38:01 <Slereah7> I never got past the first screen.
19:38:23 <tusho> Slereah7: Just jump up the top.
19:38:26 <tusho> It's the easiest route.
19:39:21 <tusho> Slereah7: Double jump, dude.
19:39:24 <tusho> Press shift twice.
19:39:48 <tusho> Slereah7: You have to move to the right to actually land on something...
19:39:49 <Slereah7> I can't, you know, get enough on the right to reach the floor
19:40:02 <tusho> Slereah7: Um. Just keep trying. It's easy. I got it first time.
19:40:05 <Slereah7> I played enough Mario to know the drill!
19:40:05 <tusho> You're just being too clever.
19:41:19 <Slereah7> But I was killed by an apple :o
19:41:30 <tusho> Slereah7: You have to run into them, then away before they fall.
19:41:34 <tusho> And you have to jump over some of them.
19:41:38 <tusho> Also, they're giant cherries.
19:41:50 <Slereah7> I'll try as soon as I get back up
19:42:01 <tusho> It's not even hard.
19:42:33 <tusho> Slereah7: Watch a video of it on youtube.
19:42:50 <tusho> I know your problem.
19:42:57 <tusho> You should press jump when you reach your peak.
19:43:00 <tusho> Not straight after the first.
19:43:44 <tusho> Those are a bit infuriating.
19:43:57 <oklopol> judging by the youtube clip the first part is trivial
19:44:03 <tusho> oklopol: you'd think
19:44:16 <tusho> because you move fast
19:44:18 <tusho> it's hard to get precision
19:44:48 <tusho> oklopol: stop watching the youtube video, it'll spoil all the suprises
19:46:13 <tusho> that happens a lot
19:46:16 <tusho> you memorize the first part
19:46:23 <tusho> so its not that painful
19:46:45 <tusho> Slereah7: the thing is that this game is actually fun
19:46:49 <tusho> not in the 'whee this is fun' sense
19:46:59 <tusho> but in the 'HAHAHAHA YES I GOT PAST THIS PART YOU FUCKING GAME I ROCK SO FUCKING MUCH'
19:47:19 <Slereah7> A big problem is the shift key
19:47:29 <tusho> Slereah7: maybe you should try a gamepad
19:47:31 <Slereah7> If I press it 5 times in a row, I get some windows thingamabob
19:47:35 <tusho> Slereah7: that's easy
19:47:43 <tusho> and 'configure' on the stickykeys thing
19:47:47 <tusho> and deselect 'Use keycombination'
19:47:51 <oklopol> tusho: i watched just till the first part
19:47:53 <tusho> something similar to that
19:48:01 <oklopol> wanted to see what it looks like
19:48:11 * Hiato is still laughing about the 2:1 result
19:48:45 <tusho> hope you're playing on Medium
19:48:50 <tusho> those wuss points are invaluable
19:49:02 <tusho> and the bow-tie is funny
19:49:06 <oklopol> once you get to a save point, you've definitely achieved something? i mean, is it straightforward?
19:49:06 <Slereah7> I'm not stupid enough to do hard on my first game
19:49:20 <tusho> oklopol: anyway, just a note
19:49:24 <tusho> set the difficulty to Medium
19:49:26 <oklopol> is it possible to go the wrong way
19:49:27 <Slereah7> I think he means "Can I do something wrong"
19:49:36 <tusho> oklopol: no, you can't go wrong
19:49:39 <tusho> but there are multiple paths
19:49:46 <tusho> in particular, you beat one boss, then go back and do another
19:49:51 <tusho> (it's all one big map)
19:50:01 <tusho> oklopol: anyway, choose Medium - all the skills effect are the number of save points
19:50:03 <tusho> and you really need them
19:50:10 <tusho> (Well, Medium puts a pink bow-tie on your character for being a wuss.)
19:50:30 <oklopol> i'll try medium if hard is hard
19:50:41 <tusho> Medium is nigh-on impossible anyway
19:50:57 <tusho> oklopol: dude, right after the cherries (REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING) is a bit that'll take you like 50 tries to get right
19:51:02 <tusho> you don't wanna have to do the cherries every time
19:51:09 <tusho> there's a wuss point right after the cherries though
19:51:13 <tusho> i.e. only available on Medium
19:51:20 <Slereah7> I read that some games unlock the easy mode if you die enough
19:51:26 <tusho> in fact, the FAQ tells all new players to START ON MEDIUM DAMNIT
19:51:33 <Slereah7> But they put you in a tutu or something for being such a pansy.
19:51:46 <tusho> Slereah7: Well, look at the main character on medium.
19:51:52 <tusho> That pink thing isn't there on anythiing but medium. :P
19:52:06 <tusho> So, this game is one of them, except it's always unlocked
19:52:15 <Slereah7> Well, I cleared the falling cherries.
19:52:18 <tusho> Medium, Hard, Very Hard, Impossible
19:52:23 <tusho> Impossible has no save points at all - so it literally is.
19:52:24 <Slereah7> Now, how to jump on the platform...
19:52:30 <oklopol> well i would've started on impossible
19:52:45 <tusho> oklopol: Medium will rape you from the inside anyway
19:52:46 <Slereah7> Well, there's always some nutso who actually do the "impossible" levels and such
19:52:59 <tusho> Slereah7: Not on this game.
19:53:03 <tusho> Because, uh, the game is very big.
19:53:07 <Slereah7> Like that guy who managed to finish Postal 2 without killing anyone.
19:53:13 <tusho> And it has loads of one-pixel=OOP I DIED
19:53:21 <Slereah7> tusho : Believe me, you'll always find a nut.
19:53:27 <tusho> I mean, if you're really good. You'll die like 100 times on Medium.
19:53:52 <tusho> Slereah7: Shiet. You're right.
19:53:52 <tusho> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kSqQ8Qjc9fs&feature=related
19:54:09 <tusho> But the person doing thati s a retard.
19:54:55 <tusho> Slereah7: I thought you said you cleared that.
19:55:04 <tusho> Oh, btw. To use a save/wuss point shoot it.
19:55:27 <Slereah7> I meant that I cleared the cherries that fall, you know
19:55:40 <tusho> well, it's not hard the second time
19:55:43 <tusho> just jump out of their way.
19:56:07 <Slereah7> The first one, I have like a 1cm wide platform
19:56:23 <tusho> Slereah7: Start to jump on to the next platform, then immediately press right to get back.
19:57:15 <Slereah7> I'm not sure I want to be the guy.
19:57:21 <tusho> Slereah7: It's a bit hard getting used to it.
19:57:27 <tusho> Die a few more times and it should become second nature. :P
19:57:47 <tusho> For the very last one.
19:57:54 <tusho> You just have to double jump on to the last platform
19:57:56 <Slereah7> I wonder if I can shoot the savepoint from here.
19:57:58 <tusho> And hold down left to do it.
19:58:14 <tusho> But yeah, the last one you just GTFO on to the next platform before it hits you.
19:59:20 <tusho> Slereah7: the last one under the platform just falls downwards.
19:59:34 <tusho> The second-last one (the one before the wuss point) you just have to jump and be fast enough
20:00:10 <tusho> Slereah7: that's ok
20:00:13 <tusho> the cherries are still gone
20:01:44 <tusho> Slereah7: Wusspoint or save point?
20:01:56 <tusho> But one is marked WUSS.
20:02:05 <tusho> Oh, btw. When you get beyond the clouds, don't go <-- to the left. Go ^ up with the EVIL SPIKY FALLDOWN
20:02:51 <Slereah7> Good thing the game over music isn't annoying.
20:03:01 <tusho> Slereah7: Was that sarcasm?
20:03:04 <tusho> Because you can turn off the moo-sic.
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20:05:16 <Slereah7> I jumped too far and landed on a spike :o
20:05:30 <tusho> You gotta save point though.
20:06:13 <tusho> GAH THIS BIT IS IMPOSSIBLE>
20:07:05 <Slereah7> How do I get from the cloud that goes up to the leftmost cloud?
20:07:20 <tusho> Slereah7: Well that's the challengy bit.
20:07:25 <tusho> I mean, you need to get off it, right?
20:07:30 <tusho> Well, where are your exits from that cloud?
20:07:46 <oklopol> indeed, just brute force itt.
20:07:55 <tusho> Slereah7: Spikes on the RIGHT?
20:08:03 <tusho> We're talking about the cloud that goes up.
20:08:06 <tusho> There's no spikes to the right of that.
20:08:10 <tusho> There's a way off the cloud.
20:08:19 <tusho> Slereah7: And you can change your direction mid-fall.
20:08:25 <Slereah7> That "way off" is less than one centimeter.
20:08:26 <tusho> Walk off the right edge of the cloud as it goes upwards.
20:08:31 <tusho> Then, immediately hold down left
20:08:36 <tusho> Double jump half-way there.
20:08:38 <tusho> Slereah7: No it's not.
20:08:39 <Slereah7> Sure, my character is ten pixels wide
20:08:41 <tusho> Do it as soon as you get onto it.
20:09:16 <Slereah7> I didn't even got the time to get to the middle of it :o
20:09:47 <tusho> Slereah7: Lemme show you an mspaint.
20:11:53 <tusho> Slereah7: Just a sce.
20:12:24 <tusho> Slereah7: K, here:
20:12:27 <tusho> http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08244/sdfdsf890.png
20:12:38 <tusho> Red line = where to go when you land on planet Goupcloud.
20:13:14 <Slereah7> The jump key isn't always very responsive :(
20:13:19 <tusho> Slereah7: No, actually...
20:13:27 <tusho> You can't double jump when you go below your peak
20:13:34 <tusho> WHen you get to the second -
20:13:37 <tusho> you can't double jump any more
20:14:01 <Slereah7> The descending cloud actually *flex* when I'm over it!
20:14:40 <Slereah7> It doesn't actually descend because of gravity or anything.
20:14:47 <Slereah7> This cloud has a mind of its own
20:15:01 <tusho> Slereah7: You mean the middle cloud?
20:15:09 <tusho> It makes as much sense as cherries falling upwards.
20:15:16 <Slereah7> If you're over it, but before you land, you can see it going down and up.
20:15:30 <Slereah7> Yes. The environment is very hostile.
20:15:50 <Slereah7> Oh course, if a guy with a pink bow jumped on my back, I would send him to his death
20:16:37 <tusho> I just got further than ever there
20:16:41 <tusho> Slereah7: I figure I shoudl warn you:
20:16:45 <tusho> You know the final cloud?
20:16:49 <tusho> You know the peice of land with the save point?
20:16:53 <tusho> Well, the landing you have on to that.
20:16:55 <tusho> When you land on to it.
20:17:01 <tusho> A huge spike thing comes down at you.
20:17:12 <tusho> What you should do: Jump on to it from the cloud, then jump on to the other peice of land on the left immediately.
20:17:17 <tusho> Once it's fallen down, jump onto it and go up.
20:18:05 <tusho> Oh man. I just got past the next screen but a spike came down frmo a cloud on to me.
20:22:34 <tusho> Slereah7: Which part are you up to?
20:22:38 <tusho> Because oh man. The next bit sucks.
20:22:44 <tusho> I'm almost up to the first boss, too.
20:24:29 <Slereah7> http://www.home-school.com/Articles/
20:25:00 <Slereah7> It seems they don't like computers much
20:25:16 <Slereah7> And from what I can see, that they never actually had to search for information
20:31:59 <oklopol> okay, it is pretty hard getting anywhere as shift doesn't always do the second jump
20:32:39 <oklopol> Slereah7: thanks good answer
20:32:47 <tusho> oklopol: anyway, read up
20:32:55 <tusho> by the point of the second -
20:32:57 <tusho> you can't double-jump
20:33:00 <tusho> you have to do it at the peak or earlier
20:33:04 <tusho> To word it in english:
20:33:10 <tusho> When you start _falling_ after your jump, you can't double jump.
20:33:26 <oklopol> but can you jump if you just fall?
20:33:38 <tusho> after you just fall you can do one more jump
20:33:42 <tusho> oklopol: what part are you at?
20:34:25 <tusho> oklopol: which path are you going
20:34:28 <tusho> upwards to the cherries?
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20:47:32 <Slereah7> "Just as in real education there is a point at which mathematics or chemistry or a foreign language aren't "fun" any more if you actually want to master them."
20:47:57 <Sgeo> Science involves too much reality for my taste :/
20:47:58 <pikhq> Math is very, very fun.
20:47:58 <tusho> Slereah7: I think you're trying to say 'fuck you home-school.com'.
20:48:18 <oklopol> i wish i were home schooled
20:48:27 <pikhq> (although I may have just not hit that point. Of course, if I hit that point, then it'd probably be in grad school. :p)
20:49:52 <pikhq> No, pi ~= 3. (though that is a poor estimate)
20:50:20 <oklopol> tusho: is there a trick to the room with the invisible blocks?
20:50:30 <tusho> oklopol: don't go that way
20:51:05 <oklopol> i know i possible, i did the second jump twice already, and the third is equal to that... but it'll take me a week.
20:52:04 <Sgeo> what game is this?
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20:52:23 <tusho> Sgeo: I Wanna Be The Guy: The Movie: The Game
20:53:14 <Slereah7> Imagine an old school platform game
20:53:21 <Slereah7> Now imagine it full of fake difficulty.
20:53:28 <tusho> Slereah7: And love.
20:54:51 <Slereah7> I almost was on the last cloud
20:57:46 <tusho> oklopol: when you go up and get got by the spikes
20:57:49 <tusho> i'm at the bit after the spikes
20:57:59 <tusho> where you're on a platform going left and right and have to avoid spikes by jumping over them
20:58:56 <Slereah7> "Evolution Theory Adds No Information to Science"
20:59:07 <Slereah7> This is what it all comes down to
20:59:50 <pikhq> You know, evolution was recently observed in an E. Coli population in a lab. . .
21:00:14 <pikhq> The E. Coli evolved the ability to metabolise citrate after a few thousand generations.
21:00:39 <tusho> pikhq: Uh. Isn't it like standard biology class stuff to evolve some bacteria?
21:00:48 <tusho> I think the creationists deny _macro-scale_ evolution.
21:00:53 <tusho> Not micro-scale. That would be even stupider.
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21:01:39 <Slereah7> They usually go something like "Well you don't see a dog born to a cat, do you!"
21:01:43 <pikhq> (the ability to metabolise citrate is a fairly complex ability; that ability is actually used to differentiate between a few different bacteria species)
21:02:19 <Slereah7> Because creationism is made for people who have no clue as to what science is.
21:03:05 <augur> slereah, i just realized. part of it is that people have a sort of built in platonism with regard to types
21:03:25 <augur> and so its hard for them to grasp that theres no such thing as A Dog in the first place
21:03:26 <pikhq> This recently observed thing is like a dog, over many generations, evolving the ability to chew cud.
21:04:07 <Slereah7> They usually refer to the biblical "kind".
21:04:09 <pikhq> How many dogs chew cud?
21:04:14 <Slereah7> Of course, they have no clue what a kind is.
21:04:31 <pikhq> It sure as hell ain't Canis lupus.
21:04:45 <Slereah7> Why is a wolf closer to a terrier than a fox.
21:04:49 <pikhq> Perhaps Canis ungulatus?
21:05:11 <augur> slereah: just because.
21:05:16 <pikhq> A terrier is Canis lupus domesticus. A wolf is Canis lupus <some other subspecies>.
21:05:33 <augur> canis lupus better-than-fucking-dogs-icus
21:06:21 <pikhq> Anyways, off I go.
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21:13:26 <Slereah7> I didn't even know you could fall!
21:13:30 <tusho> MORALE: DON'T DO THAT
21:15:01 <tusho> oklopol: I shut it down. But I'll start again
21:15:02 <oklopol> a bit annoying to wait for 5 minutes for tyson and then die as i have no idea what do to
21:15:26 <augur> SICP is so fucking awesome
21:15:28 <oklopol> he doesn't show he's hurt?
21:15:33 <tusho> oklopol: he goes ow.
21:16:55 <tusho> wtf where di my parallels winxp go
21:17:13 <oklopol> ok i think i hurt him a few times
21:18:03 <tusho> oklopol: yeah I'm not sure msyelf
21:20:39 <Slereah7> The problem with this game is, you don't have the time to make a mistake
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21:24:19 <oklopol> Slereah7: you're still at the beginning?
21:25:10 <oklopol> i managed to walk past him!
21:25:22 <Slereah7> "What You Should Know About Computer Models Jason Makansi tells us how to tell if a computer projection is likely to be accurate or wildly wrong."
21:25:44 <Slereah7> Also "Going to College at Home Paula Mann shows how you can do it."
21:27:08 <oklopol> okay, i know how to pass him now
21:27:14 <oklopol> but... i have no idea how to hurt him.
21:27:27 <tusho> oklopol: you shoot him in the right place
21:27:29 <tusho> at the right moment
21:27:58 <oklopol> yeah, but what might that be
21:28:07 <tusho> I FUCKED UP MY SAVE
21:28:12 <tusho> BY SAVING RIGHT WHERE THE LIGHTNING BOLT COMES DOWN
21:29:46 <oklopol> well till mike tyson it was pretty easy
21:29:57 <oklopol> and this is prolly easy too, just hard to figure out
21:31:43 <Slereah7> "The chief advantage of enrolling in Edison's Guided Study courses or using these books/programs (doing it on the cheap) over your children attending the local community college is that parents can watch videos with their children and point out what is wrong."
21:31:53 <Slereah7> I'm sure parents are qualified for such courses.
21:32:35 <Slereah7> Although I think it's mostly "EVOLUTION IS WRONG" whenever it comes up
21:32:37 <oklopol> especially with this goddamned wait
21:32:46 <oklopol> hopefully only takes three hits :|
21:34:26 <tusho> oklopol: ifuckinghatetheplatformyouhavetogoonbeforetheroombeforemiketyson
21:36:41 <tusho> oklopol: oh my god
21:36:43 <tusho> the stars kill you
21:37:03 <Slereah7> "Want to rescue people? Forget Final Fantasy 7 - join Civil Air Patrol. Kids as young as 11 can join and participate in real search and rescue."
21:37:10 <Slereah7> Yeah, that's much more exciting.
21:37:15 <oklopol> getting a bit tired, hard is okay, but i hate it when i have no idea what to do
21:37:28 <Slereah7> "Stuck on Doom and Quake? Maybe your teen needs to take a hunter safety course and learn what guns are really all about. "
21:37:38 <Slereah7> Can I hunt giant eyeballs and zombies?
21:37:44 <oklopol> well, i know how to get the first hit, but he comes at me totally differently the second time
21:37:47 <tusho> oklopol: Watch a video.
21:37:50 <tusho> It'll tell you how.
21:38:00 <tusho> Slereah7: correction, fuck you home-school.com
21:39:07 <Slereah7> A lot of the articles have nothing to do with home schooling
21:39:08 <oklopol> tusho: i found that extremely simple :)
21:39:12 <tusho> Fall down inthe room before mike tyson
21:39:13 <tusho> THAT MAKES NO SENSE
21:39:14 <Slereah7> It's just about evolution and global warming.
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21:40:56 <tusho> Slereah7: in the room before mike tyson
21:40:59 <tusho> how do you get on to the last bit
21:40:59 <Slereah7> You're nothing but... AN EPIC FAIL GUY
21:41:07 <tusho> because I can get up to the box that goes down
21:41:23 <tusho> oklopol: shoot what
21:42:16 <tusho> now for mike tyson
21:42:22 <oklopol> i may have come up with the way to kill that bitch
21:43:26 <tusho> how on earth do you do that
21:43:57 <oklopol> i just may know how it's done.
21:44:24 <tusho> Died for the second time.
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21:44:58 <oklopol> i can give you hints, but try for a while first
21:45:09 <SimonRC> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/third_edition/html/lexical.html#3.8
21:45:25 <tusho> SimonRC: which one
21:45:29 <tusho> "Two identifiers are the same only if they are identical, that is, have the same Unicode character for each letter or digit."
21:45:34 <tusho> if so that seems reasonable to me
21:45:51 <SimonRC> I am thinking from a malicious PoV
21:46:08 <SimonRC> suppose you have a variable called ....
21:46:41 <SimonRC> and you have another one that is the same but represented as an e and a combining acute mark...
21:47:02 <SimonRC> the Java spec says they must be different variables
21:47:15 <SimonRC> the unicode spec says they must look identical
21:47:42 <SimonRC> so you have seperate variables that are distinguished solely by something that you aren't supposed to be able to see
21:49:21 <tusho> oklopol: i got one hit on him
21:49:31 <SimonRC> just for fun, you can name everything e, with various accents.
21:49:37 <oklopol> yeah, that's as far as i get too :D
21:49:45 <tusho> oklopol: I fell down a hole he made
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21:49:55 <oklopol> the second time really is different, and i have no idea what to do.
21:50:00 <tusho> looked the same to me
21:50:03 <SimonRC> your text editor or other text tools might mangle the one representation into the other.
21:50:42 <SimonRC> well, turning two variables into one often affects the running of a program...
21:51:37 <SimonRC> I forgot to give people context beyond "making code hard to maintain"
21:51:39 <SimonRC> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/unmain.html
21:51:59 <tusho> yes, it's good for making obfuscated code
21:52:01 <tusho> but not _malicious_
21:52:26 <oklopol> he doesn't make holes before the first hit
21:52:26 <oklopol> i mean, using my technique
21:52:27 <tusho> SimonRC: firstly, the user would have to edit the source
21:52:42 <tusho> they would also have to use an editor that does that
21:52:45 <oklopol> tusho: moves faster the second time
21:52:51 <tusho> SimonRC: then, they'd have to compile it.
21:52:57 <tusho> without reading what it actually does.
21:53:06 <SimonRC> if I found that someone was relying on that bit of the spec in production code I would suspect them of trying to sabotage the company
21:53:06 <tusho> also, they'd have to not notice that you have two variable declarations for the same char.
21:53:11 <tusho> also, they'd have to not notice that you have two variable declarations for the same char.
21:53:53 <tusho> oklopol: wanna try a different route?
21:53:56 <tusho> there are two more
21:53:57 <SimonRC> suppose that the chance of a programmer's tools actually turning the one variable into the other are rather slim
21:54:05 <tusho> one of them is going V down on the first screen
21:54:14 <tusho> then, when the spike moves away
21:54:17 <tusho> jump up again and immediately drop
21:54:20 <tusho> the spike will go through
21:54:26 <tusho> and you jump up and walk through the wall
21:54:42 <SimonRC> oklopol: yes, if you are saying what I think you are
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21:55:22 <Slereah7> "Buy a copy of a baby naming book and youll never be at a loss for variable names. Fred is a wonderful name, and easy to type."
21:55:37 <Slereah7> "If you call your variables a, b, c, then it will be impossible to search for instances of them using a simple text editor."
21:56:00 <Slereah7> I don't want people maintaining my code :o
21:57:03 <Slereah7> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/TTT3.4.c
21:58:32 <Slereah7> "In naming functions and variables, make heavy use of abstract words like it, everything, data, handle, stuff, do, routine, perform and the digits e.g. routineX48, PerformDataFunction, DoIt, HandleStuff and do_args_method."
21:58:36 <oklopol> tusho: two hits, and i think i can get infinite hits now
21:58:47 <Slereah7> I am so going to do that for my next interpreter
21:59:04 <Slereah7> "Real men never define acronyms; they understand them genetically."
21:59:14 <tusho> oklopol: should I make an awesome game that's just as hard
21:59:43 <Slereah7> YOU HAVE TO CLICK A PIXEL-WIDE BUTTON IN THE NEXT SECOND
21:59:58 <Slereah7> OR YOU WILL DIE, AND YOUR SAVES WILL BE ERASED
22:00:15 <oklopol> less incredibly great timing, more fast reacting
22:00:38 <tusho> things that hone into you
22:00:41 <tusho> like, circle around you
22:00:47 <tusho> and you have to jump around to confuse them
22:01:23 <oklopol> i like the kind of thing where nothing is especially hard, but you have to keep moving all the time
22:01:33 <tusho> oklopol: yeah, mine'll be like that
22:01:45 <oklopol> not the kind this one is, that you get rest all the time, but the single tasks are impossible
22:02:37 <tusho> AIS523 IF YOU ARE LOGREADING
22:02:46 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_the_lucky_stiff <-- DELETING THIS PAGE IS A TOTALLY SHITTY IDEA.
22:02:54 <tusho> HE'S INCREDIBLY WELL KNOWN IN THE RUBY COMMUNITY (WHICH HAS LATELY GROWN HUGE).
22:03:02 <tusho> DON'T BE STUPID AND STOP THEM. K.
22:03:17 <tusho> (Easy ways to get in touch with wikipedia administrators #1, that is)
22:03:32 <tusho> oklopol: mine will have music generated to how you're playing
22:05:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:05:47 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:06:13 <tusho> oklopol: what did you last hear
22:06:38 -!- Corun has joined.
22:06:53 <tusho> oklopol: that's the last thing then
22:08:02 <tusho> [22:06] oklopol left the chat room. (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:08:02 <tusho> [22:06] oklopol joined the chat room.
22:08:44 <Slereah7> "Hungarian Notation is the tactical nuclear weapon of source code obfuscation techniques; use it! "
22:08:54 <tusho> lament: Colloquy is stupid.
22:09:07 <tusho> But it handles SILC and some other protocols too, so maybe that's why.
22:09:12 <tusho> oklopol: ah, then no
22:09:26 <tusho> my game will literally randomly generate a soundtrack based on how you're moving
22:10:06 <oklopol> third time, it's even faster
22:10:28 <Slereah7> "If a maintenance programmer cant quote entire Monty Python movies from memory, he or she has no business being a programmer."
22:10:59 <tusho> oklopol: PAY ATTENTION TO ME
22:11:42 <oklopol> generating music is a great idea, and you should do it
22:12:26 <tusho> oklopol: AND I WILL!
22:13:23 <SimonRC> Slereah7: not much of an AI...
22:14:15 <SimonRC> 21:57:03 < Slereah7> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/TTT3.4.c
22:14:39 <SimonRC> the ascii codes for the messages are a bit gratuitous though
22:14:43 <SimonRC> tusho: read it and find out
22:14:51 <tusho> SimonRC: moar like: run it
22:15:00 <SimonRC> function g() is a big hint
22:15:13 <tusho> SimonRC: i don't think Slereah7 wrote that though
22:15:19 <SimonRC> if you don't get it after reading g, read h
22:15:47 <tusho> hah, I just beat the computer.
22:15:58 <Slereah7> SimonRC : The strings would give away the program!
22:16:08 <tusho> oh so he did write it
22:16:23 <tusho> SimonRC: a tic-tac-toe AI is so simple you can just write it as a transition table
22:16:29 <tusho> and include it right there in the source
22:16:47 <tusho> "_____________O____"
22:16:53 <tusho> is empty board -> put in middle
22:17:18 <Slereah7> Although I could have done more obfuscated, I suppose
22:17:31 <tusho> lament: hah, yeah, you could write a tic-tac-toe in thue pretty easily!
22:17:41 <Slereah7> Like filling the arrays with any numbers, then do arithmetics on them or whatever
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22:17:54 <Slereah7> Also, note : there is a goto in there.
22:18:02 <Slereah7> People don't use enough goto in C.
22:18:09 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:18:23 <oklofok> tusho: getting back from the tyson room is harder than tyson.
22:18:33 <lament> definitely "not enough" is the expression i was thinking of.
22:18:41 <tusho> lament: it's obfuscated code.
22:19:02 <Slereah7> : Pepper the code with comments like /* add 1 to i */ however, never document wooly stuff like the overall purpose of the package or method.
22:19:27 <tusho> you know what c needs
22:19:29 <tusho> intra-procedure gotos
22:19:37 <tusho> x(){A:goto B;}y(){B:goto A;}
22:19:43 <tusho> especially if they don't actually change the call stack
22:20:14 <oklofok> the jump from the save point to the falling piece is next to impossible
22:20:14 <tusho> x(int i){return i+1;A:return i*2;}y(int j){int i=x(j);goto A;}
22:20:27 <tusho> which is equiv. to:
22:20:41 <tusho> y(int i){return (i+1)*2}
22:21:30 <SimonRC> I have seen beter than that in Forth...
22:21:53 <tusho> SimonRC: but it's more fun if you have a regular c program that just goto's to some other procedure
22:21:58 <Slereah7> : Discourage any attempt to use external maintenance contractors by peppering your code with insulting references to other leading software companies, especially anyone who might be contracted to do the work.
22:22:05 <SimonRC> I have seen a legitimately-used jump from run-time into compile-time
22:22:38 <SimonRC> : foo create ... begin ... does> ... again ... ;
22:22:59 <oklofok> tusho: i stopped, getting a bit late
22:23:07 <oklofok> but you prolly stopped ages ago
22:23:09 <SimonRC> it creates words that create words that ... and so on forever
22:29:34 <Slereah7> In those worlds, the terser your code and the more bizarre the way it works, the more you are revered.
22:30:14 <SimonRC> well, I am currently doing stuff with colorForth
22:30:24 <SimonRC> that really really emphasizes simplicity
22:31:59 <Slereah7> In C, the effects of pre/post decrement code such as
22:31:59 <Slereah7> are not defined by the language spec. Every compiler is free to evaluate in a different order. This makes them doubly deadly.
22:33:12 <SimonRC> suppose a compiler keeps track of what to increment and decrement by setting flags on its data about variables...
22:33:26 <SimonRC> a++ + a++ could plausibly just increment a once
22:33:37 <tusho> SimonRC: in gcc, a++ + a++ DOES only increment once I think
22:34:19 <SimonRC> but then, in old GCCs, any #pragma would cause the compiler to start nethack
22:34:25 <oklofok> i could easily believe an implementation that increments twice.
22:34:38 <Slereah7> "Use the fuzziest, vaguest most general terminology you can come up with, especially for variable names. handle is a great example a handle to what? processData is a great method name. Was there ever a method written that could not be so described? It cleverly hides any clue to what it does behind a cloud of ambiguity."
22:34:48 <tusho> it started towers of hanoi in emacs
22:35:13 <SimonRC> I recall it had some fallbacks too
22:35:44 <Slereah7> "Leaving bugs in your programs gives the maintenance programmer who comes along later something interesting to do. A well done bug should leave absolutely no clue as to when it was introduced or where. The laziest way to accomplish this is simply never to test your code."
22:35:57 <Slereah7> This man was probably not loved much in his company.
22:36:39 <SimonRC> but how would people know that the bugs were his?
22:38:32 <Slereah7> Computer languages are gradually evolving to become more fool proof. Using state of the art languages is unmanly. Insist on using the oldest language you can get away with, octal machine language if you can (Like Hans und Frans, I am no girlie man; I am so virile I used to code by plugging gold tipped wires into a plugboard of IBM unit record equipment (punch cards), or by poking holes in paper tape with a hand punch), failing t
22:39:21 <Slereah7> "Sprinkle your code with bits of inline assembler just for fun. Almost no one understands assembler anymore. Even a few lines of it can stop a maintenance programmer cold."
22:40:54 <Slereah7> I don't know most functions or whatever
22:41:17 <Slereah7> "Be never vigilant of the next Y2K. If you ever spot something that could sneak up on a fixed deadline and destroy all life in the western hemisphere then do not openly discuss it until we are under the critical 4 year event window of panic and opportunity."
22:42:02 <oklofok> Slereah7: you don't know most functions?
22:42:07 <oklofok> manuals / make them yourself
22:42:23 <Slereah7> "Rest assured that we all see the threat too. Sleep sound at night knowing that long after youve been forced into early retirement you will be begged to come back at a logarithmically increased hourly rate!"
22:42:25 <oklofok> i program almost exclusively python, and i haven't read the standard functions lies
22:42:58 <Slereah7> Beside computation/output/input, I don't know much.
22:43:19 <Slereah7> I'm terrible at file handling, and more complicated things, I do not know
22:43:40 <oklofok> file handling is done like the api tells you to
22:49:18 <oklofok> Slereah7: well giyf, but application programming interface
22:51:47 <Slereah7> Is it reasonable to google "api"?
22:52:09 <Slereah7> But googling TLA isn't always.
22:52:40 <Slereah7> "You dont need great skill to write unmaintainable code. Just leap in and start coding. Keep in mind that management still measures productivity in lines of code even if you have to delete most of it later."
22:53:20 <tusho> Slereah7: Google 'python manual'
22:53:22 <tusho> Read the section on files.
22:54:14 <Slereah7> But sometimes, I just have no idea what it is talking about.
22:54:30 <tusho> Slereah7: Then read it again.
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23:00:48 <Slereah7> "There is another way of interpreting this essay, as a terrorist manual."
23:02:06 <Slereah7> "There are millions of ways to insidiously corrupt data and program source. America is a sitting duck for a patient terrorist with a small bank account and a copy of this essay."
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00:13:21 -!- tusho has changed nick to nottusho.
00:13:28 -!- nottusho has changed nick to tusho.
00:18:18 -!- Slereah7 has changed nick to Slereah.
00:18:27 <tusho> let's spell 'hello world'
00:18:50 <Slereah> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:19:41 <oklopol> my o was the latter o of course
00:22:05 <Slereah> I wonder if most of the wiki people know of the chat
00:22:06 -!- HanDongSeong has quit ("탈출").
00:22:25 <Slereah> The "communauty" button isn't usually the most clicked in a wiki
00:23:03 <oklopol> commuNAUGHTY is more like it
00:23:10 <Slereah> Hm. Apparently the second most viewed language article is AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
00:23:16 -!- corn has joined.
00:23:40 <tusho> the troll is here too.
00:23:46 <tusho> lament: can you dispose of corn
00:23:52 <tusho> he's been trolling in #wiktionary and #wikipedia
00:23:54 <oklopol> corn: are you into esolangs?
00:24:05 <tusho> he's said he will come into my house and murder me
00:24:08 <tusho> in bold underlined ALLCAPS
00:24:14 <tusho> stalked me across various channels
00:24:17 <tusho> it's not very amusing, just annoying
00:24:18 <corn> HAVE U GUYS EVER TRIED SHOVING AN EPIPEN IN UR PROSTATE?
00:26:00 <tusho> Slereah: got an ASCIIgoatse?
00:26:23 -!- Dave2 has joined.
00:26:30 <Slereah> But Freenode is strict on flood
00:26:46 <tusho> oklopol: that was ascii art directed at corn
00:27:04 <Slereah> http://pastebin.com/m4a0caa45
00:27:07 <corn> TUSHO IM GOING TO RAPE AND KILL YOU
00:27:11 <tusho> oklopol: dave2 is freenode staff, apparently
00:27:14 <tusho> I reported the issue to them.
00:27:27 <tusho> I don't think he'll click on anything.
00:27:31 <oklopol> what was the first one, Slereah?
00:27:38 <tusho> oklopol: A facepalm, I think.
00:28:01 <tusho> hello corn via notice
00:28:20 <Slereah> But trolls are immune to trolling.
00:29:10 <oklopol> corn: will you rape and kill me too?
00:29:25 <tusho> It's only nice that colours are disabled in here.
00:29:45 <Slereah> You can't rape the willing.
00:30:01 <oklopol> oh, right, i always forget that
00:31:34 <corn> OKLOPOL WHERE DO YOU LIVE
00:31:47 <tusho> Dave2: ha, get a load of this.
00:31:53 <augur> oklopol, lets work more on the language
00:32:31 <tusho> Yes, corn, I can verify that.
00:32:32 <Slereah> Well, I'm sure augur will appreciate the news.
00:32:36 <tusho> I'm sure Dave2 can too.
00:32:52 <augur> oklopol lets gayfuck
00:33:02 <tusho> Is it about augur and oklopol, corn?
00:33:06 <tusho> Because those are old by now.
00:33:09 <oklopol> augur: i prefer the language idea :)
00:33:14 <Slereah> YOU SAID YOU'D NEVER FORGET!
00:33:22 <tusho> Knock knock. Interrupting cow. Mooooo.
00:33:24 <augur> good, so do i, but then corn happened so
00:33:28 <Slereah> The 9/11 one is much more awesome.
00:34:08 -!- corn has quit (K-lined).
00:34:14 -!- SwirlBoy39 has joined.
00:34:51 <augur> swirlboy, do you like cock?
00:35:14 <tusho> SwirlBoy39: augur is very silly.
00:35:30 <Slereah> We don't have to fear trolls with regulars like augur
00:35:52 <augur> i'll scare them away with my supergay powers!
00:36:00 <tusho> SwirlBoy39: The topic of this channel is actually supposed to be esoteric programming languages.
00:36:03 <tusho> Like brainfuck or INTERCAL.
00:36:12 <augur> SWIRLY, IT'S VERY SIMPLE. DO YOU ENJOY INSERTING PENISES INTO YOUR MOUTH AND/OR RECTUM
00:36:14 <augur> ANSWER THE QUESTION
00:36:28 <tusho> Bad day to come in here, SwirlBoy39.
00:36:39 <tusho> SwirlBoy39: Augur. :P
00:36:52 <augur> so anyway, oklopol, to the pms, we have a language to design
00:36:59 -!- Dave2 has left (?).
00:37:00 -!- SwirlBoy39 has left (?).
00:37:08 <tusho> I wanna see the thought processes
00:37:11 <tusho> and but in at every step
00:37:18 <tusho> coincidence? I think not.
00:37:25 <oklopol> okay, tusho, i'll fill you in on what's happened in priv
00:37:32 <tusho> oklopol: NO YOU WILL MOVE THE CONVERSATION TO #ESOTERIC
00:37:53 <augur> come to #reactance
00:39:10 <tusho> Newsflash: augur is bitchy.
00:39:33 <augur> dont disagree with me in my domain, bitch
00:39:37 <tusho> oklopol: no, he'll discuss whether the sex will be esoteric or not
00:39:48 <tusho> and kill if a disagreement arises
00:40:06 <Slereah> He should get laid all the time!
00:40:11 <augur> we're going to discuss it here
00:40:21 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:40:46 <tusho> augur: hey, you accept i'm right after all. :P
00:41:13 <augur> dude oklopol and slereah have autorejoins XD
00:41:35 <oklopol> i'm on a channel with %roulette and %challenge
00:41:48 <augur> slereah you've been banned for unacceptable behavior.
00:42:01 <tusho> my irc network is going to have a BotBot :D
00:42:01 <augur> since i have no idea how to unban, consider it permanent.
00:42:05 <tusho> it lets you do evil stuff as a bot
00:42:07 <Slereah> augur has gone retarded with power!
00:42:24 <tusho> /msg BotBot auth FooBot
00:42:26 <oklopol> well there's the /op oklopol command for unbanning Slereah, but it'll ban you :|
00:42:27 <tusho> it lets FooBot do stuff with you
00:42:35 <tusho> if you do !roulette
00:42:45 <tusho> FooBot could send 'nick tusho tusho|DEAD' to BotBot
00:42:49 <tusho> and your nick would change
00:42:56 <augur> calling a function just set up the reaction with various dummy variables, yes?
00:43:20 <oklopol> well list of reactions rather
00:44:00 <augur> we need to formalize how you define a function tho
00:44:01 <oklopol> (while i'd love to talk, i need to be doing some going soon)
00:44:16 <augur> im not sure i like the foo = ( ..., ... ) model
00:44:29 <oklopol> now my way would be just to assign reaction lists, those (...) thingies, into vars.
00:44:40 <augur> i dont like that tho
00:44:55 <augur> because that confuses functions and first-class reactions
00:44:58 <augur> which functions are not.
00:45:23 <augur> if we want a REACTION to be stored in some variable
00:45:39 <augur> thats not the same as a function in foo
00:46:07 <augur> unless we dont want first class reactions
00:46:07 <oklopol> who me a situation where it's bad if it means the same thing
00:46:23 <oklopol> also who it a tome, a small one
00:46:48 <augur> well, i cant think of any practical example right now but
00:47:13 <augur> theres clearly a distinction between a reaction as a thing
00:47:25 <augur> and a function as a shorthand for setting up some reactions using dummy variables.
00:48:09 <augur> im tempted to just say
00:48:23 <augur> foo = do @ -> blah
00:48:34 <augur> or something like that.
00:49:06 <oklopol> well i hate keywords, but still i don't see why not ()
00:49:15 <augur> because ( ) is just grouping.
00:49:39 <augur> ofcourse we could distinguish betweeb
00:49:48 <augur> (a, b, c) which is just multiple values
00:49:58 <augur> (a b c) which is multiple statements
00:50:18 <augur> if you wanna do that ok. but there are potentials for ambiguity
00:50:58 <augur> (a, b, c -> d e, f, g -> h)
00:51:44 <augur> is it (a, b, c) -> d and (e, f, g) -> h together as function body?
00:51:58 <oklopol> ; or \n for separating reactions
00:52:04 <oklopol> that's been the convention since the beginning
00:52:27 <oklopol> and it has two -> on one line
00:52:32 <augur> so ( a \n b \n c )
00:52:32 <oklopol> i have no idea what that means
00:53:00 <augur> if we just allowed (a b c) to be three reactions, then (x -> y z -> w) would be two reactions in a function body
00:53:08 <oklopol> your point is before we've defined semantics for multiple ->'s on one line, they make no sense?
00:53:09 <augur> or maybe its something else
00:53:22 <augur> namely the funciton body ((x -> y) y) put into w
00:53:38 <oklopol> err okay, so you're saying if we changed the syntax into something that makes no sense, it'd make no sense?
00:53:52 <augur> no my point is that using (a, b, c) and (a b c) at the same time can lead to ambiguity
00:54:15 <oklopol> well why are you talking about (a b c) in the first place?
00:54:22 <augur> but if we require \n delimiters in function bodies then theres no ambiguity, yes.
00:54:55 <augur> corn is a grain native to the americas
00:55:04 <tusho> lament: inter-channel bot
00:55:04 <augur> commonly eaten boiled and coated with butter
00:55:05 <oklopol> tusho: i've used ;, augur's used \n, doesn't really matter at this point
00:55:12 <tusho> lament: er not bot
00:55:22 <tusho> basically, started accusing people in #wikipedia
00:55:27 <tusho> then /msg'd people threatening them
00:55:29 <tusho> then started stalking me
00:55:37 <lament> so it's all your fault
00:55:40 <oklopol> but yeah, i prefer ; too, because... it feels more scripty
00:55:56 <augur> ok so in your implementation itll be ;
00:55:58 <tusho> he just started joining all the channels i was in and saying he was going to rape then murder me.
00:56:02 <tusho> i didn't tell him to.
00:56:08 <Slereah> Well, corn is Mas in French :o
00:56:16 <augur> thats because you're french.
00:56:19 <augur> in mine i'll use \n, and maybe do...end
00:56:21 <Slereah> tusho : And you care... whyN
00:56:33 <tusho> Slereah: lament asked me.
00:56:48 <Slereah> If you like lament so much why don't you marry him!
00:58:31 <oklopol> Slereah: that made so much sense i gotta say touche on behalf on tusho
00:59:20 <oklopol> augur: didn't you just say the other day that you have no idea how to make an interp?
00:59:27 <Slereah> Well done, mister Bond, well done!
00:59:38 <augur> no i was talking about a non-recursively based interpreter for lisp.
01:00:19 <oklopol> don't anyone highlight tusho so he doesn't try to keep me here
01:00:34 <tusho> oklopol: if you go
01:00:38 <tusho> you know what I won't
01:00:40 <tusho> be able to show you?
01:00:45 <tusho> my awesome music game generator thing.
01:00:49 <tusho> that generates music based on how you play.
01:00:51 <tusho> it's really awesome
01:00:55 <tusho> i've been playing with it
01:00:58 <tusho> oklopol: and it's only 150 lines
01:01:00 <tusho> it's totally awesome
01:01:07 <augur> tusho: you have a running version?
01:01:07 <oklopol> well to be honest i don't trust that much in your musical skillzorz :D
01:01:13 <tusho> oklopol: but they're not mine
01:01:15 <tusho> they're the computers
01:01:40 <tusho> oklopol: its not really one algorithm
01:01:42 <oklopol> metacomposing is harder than normal composing.
01:01:50 <tusho> it has an initial state of beats and tones
01:01:53 <tusho> i.e. a simple loop
01:01:58 <oklopol> by definition, it's a whole another level
01:02:07 <tusho> and then it morphs certain 'tracks' (a beat track, a tone track, whatever) up or down and applies various effects
01:02:09 <tusho> based on data given to it
01:02:17 <tusho> specifically, shooting, moving, jumping etc data
01:02:23 <tusho> and it delays state changes so that it flows smoothly
01:02:27 <tusho> and doesn't totally mirror what you're doing
01:02:42 <Slereah> The constant should totally be 4.
01:02:45 <oklopol> tusho: i gotta say you almost got me
01:02:57 <tusho> oklopol: mine also has
01:03:00 <tusho> random noise techniquees
01:03:07 <oklopol> WELL TELL ME ALL ABOUT THEM PLEASE
01:03:26 <tusho> but it's no use if you're going
01:03:29 <tusho> since it'll take a bit to explain
01:03:57 <oklopol> you're being funny is what you are behind.
01:04:15 <tusho> it doesn't just use one initial track
01:04:20 <tusho> so multiple levels can use different tracks
01:04:53 <tusho> oklopol: its a bit gnarly, the algorithm
01:04:55 <tusho> but it produces great results
01:05:12 <oklopol> does it actually already produce music?
01:05:35 <tusho> oklopol: doesn't _play_ it but i've manually converted some stuff
01:05:37 <oklopol> if not, you tell me when it does :D
01:05:43 <tusho> it does almost everything else
01:05:48 <tusho> just not the actual send-to-soundcard
01:06:06 <tusho> oklopol: the files are big
01:06:29 <tusho> oklopol: no, an mp3
01:06:46 <tusho> but remember i converted it manually from the data it outputted (which was just the tones & beats info), but that's the easiest part
01:06:49 <tusho> oklopol: yes but they're biiiig
01:06:57 <tusho> because I played a lot around with it
01:07:00 <tusho> so I could hear all the effects
01:07:07 <oklopol> if it outputs tones & beats info, pastebin.
01:07:19 <tusho> oklopol: they're not readable. at all
01:07:21 <tusho> just lists of numbers
01:07:37 <oklopol> numbers representing what?
01:07:45 <tusho> oklopol: what sample to play
01:08:23 <oklopol> so basically you have nothing that can be listened to, or read as notes?
01:08:35 <oklopol> you've got nothing, as they say
01:08:36 <tusho> oklopol: i have an mp3 that you can listen to
01:08:42 <tusho> because i played around with it to get a lot of data
01:08:57 <tusho> you COULD have a list of seemingly-random numbers dictating what samples to play but a load of numbers isn't very useufl
01:08:58 <tusho> oklopol: like 30mb
01:09:13 <tusho> i'm not uploading a file that big at 1am
01:09:33 <tusho> oklopol: then you'd only get a portion of the effects
01:09:36 <tusho> it's a long-scale kind of thing
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01:10:37 <tusho> oklopol: what happened there
01:11:28 <oklopol> lm: 03:09… tusho: it builds up
01:11:37 <tusho> that was my latest msg
01:12:23 <Slereah> It seems that 4 is unsuitable for XKCD
01:13:17 <Slereah> Inverse ackermann doesn't work on it, A(4,4) is fucklong, McCarthy is always 91 and Look and say (4,4) is 132114
01:13:36 <Slereah> It would take way too much space to do 0
01:14:24 <tusho> Slereah: McCarthy is always 91. ZOMG :P
01:14:45 <Slereah> It's 91 if it's under 101.
01:15:03 <tusho> m91 n | n < 101 = 91; | otherwise = n-10
01:15:31 <Slereah> I use (define (M n) (if (> n 100) (- n 10) (M (M (+ n 11)))))
01:15:51 <tusho> Slereah: It's not a definition, no :P
01:15:59 <tusho> I'm just saying that m91 is only interessting for its implementation details.
01:16:19 <Slereah> Well, it's not like I wanted interesting functions!
01:16:59 <Slereah> So... Random (=3), Ackermann, inverse, McCarthy and Look and Say.
01:17:18 <tusho> Slereah: How is that ... a good language?
01:18:55 <Slereah> I just want to see if it would work
01:19:21 <Slereah> My idea was something around "You need to make A... But can you make with A!"
01:20:08 <augur> i love open courseware :(
01:21:10 <Slereah> Does open courseware not love you back?
01:21:38 <augur> the frown because i cant get enough and it hurts.
01:21:52 <augur> open source ware is MITs open access to their courses
01:22:09 <augur> including course materials, and audio/video of the courses
01:22:15 <Slereah> Are there awesome courses?
01:22:25 <augur> depends on what you mean by awesome :)
01:22:49 <augur> http://ocw.mit.edu/
01:23:56 <Slereah> I could use some programming courses.
01:24:07 <augur> i dont know if they have programming stuff
01:24:12 <augur> but they have some CS stuff
01:24:23 <augur> oh? which courses?
01:24:32 <Slereah> Well, SICP, for one, I suppose.
01:24:57 <augur> thats not programming as such, but yeah, definitely watch it
01:25:12 <augur> watch the abelson and sussman videos from 1986
01:25:18 <augur> they're really good
01:25:21 <augur> im rewatching them
01:25:45 <Slereah> I get my exam results tomorrow
01:25:50 <Slereah> and there's the raid saturday.
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01:29:51 <tusho> Slereah: Leave scientology to augur!
01:31:07 <augur> i agree with lament.
01:31:45 <Slereah> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/b/bf/Lolwutpear.jpg
01:32:27 <augur> or if you're spanish
01:32:28 <augur> http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q300/xx2punk/lolque.jpg
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01:49:33 <Slereah> Who did the look-and-say Scheme function again?
02:02:29 <Slereah> I was wondering how it worked
02:02:41 <Slereah> But apparently, you just need to feed it a list
02:02:58 <Slereah> So I'm trying to do some list->number
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03:15:54 <Slereah> > (list->number (list 1 2 3 4) 0)
03:16:00 <Slereah> I think I'm doing it wrong
03:17:48 <Slereah> > (list->number (list 1 2 3 4 5) 0)
03:20:39 <oklofok> umm what are you trying to do?
03:20:49 <oklofok> i promise not to make it in a minute and paste it
03:21:02 <Slereah> (define (list->number x n) (if (null? (cdr x)) (*(power 10 n) (car x)) (+ (* (last x) (power 10 n)) (list->number (cdr (reverse x)) (+ 1 n)))))
03:21:15 <Slereah> So far, it works, but in a bad order
03:22:01 <oklofok> not how i would do it, but i'll read
03:22:22 <oklofok> and it's not an accumulator
03:22:23 <Slereah> last is (define (last x) (car (reverse x)))
03:23:28 <Slereah> 'cause now, I have no idea
03:23:43 <oklofok> you reverse it, pop the first
03:24:18 <oklofok> results in (1 2 3 4 5 6) -> (5 4 3 2 1) -> (2 3 4 5)
03:24:41 <Slereah> I forgot to reverse it back
03:24:46 <oklofok> (which you really should've seen from the result :P)
03:25:21 <Slereah> > (list->number (list 1 2 3 4) 0)
03:25:37 <Slereah> Worst part is, I actually thought about the reversing back at one point
03:26:07 <oklofok> plus all that allocating you're doing
03:26:14 <Slereah> Is there an existing operator for the last element of a list, and its beginning?
03:26:56 <oklofok> a "list" is usually just a pair (a . b) where b is a list, and a is an element of the list
03:27:08 <oklofok> so, it's clear for "last" you need to traverse through it.
03:27:09 <augur> goodness what are you kids doing
03:27:44 <oklofok> lambda l:int("".join(map(str,l)))
03:28:00 <augur> no, give me a case analysis. :P
03:28:21 <augur> some list like ... becomes some number like ...
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03:29:07 <augur> that makes no sense slereah. :P
03:29:14 <oklofok> augur: i showed you the python code
03:29:22 <augur> i dont know python
03:29:30 <oklofok> how can someone not know python!
03:29:41 <oklofok> just look at it, isn't it soooooo clear
03:29:56 <augur> its hideous and completely incomprehensible.
03:30:28 <augur> oklofok, tell me what it does. tell me now.
03:30:29 <Slereah> Why did you feed it lists, oklo!
03:30:39 <oklofok> because it makes no sense to feed it numbers
03:31:11 <augur> oh my god what are you fucking trying to do!?
03:31:31 <augur> tell me what you're trying to do! >_<
03:32:52 <oklofok> augur: it worked already, Slereah just messed it up
03:33:03 <augur> i presume you're representing numbers as lists of digits?
03:33:29 <Slereah> Well, I can do it as feeding it list -> getting a number out
03:33:40 <oklofok> just make the "group" function, and it's trivial
03:33:56 <Slereah> But feeding number -> number, I'll have to look at your part of the code
03:34:01 <oklofok> for some reason doesn't seem to exist in any language as a standard function even thought it's needed every day :|
03:34:03 <Slereah> Otherwise, I get type errors
03:34:15 <Slereah> oklofok : Is it ever needed?
03:34:29 <oklofok> Slereah: well for look-and-say for instance
03:34:39 <oklofok> but i recently needed it for something else
03:34:43 <Slereah> http://pastebin.com/m5350c175
03:35:04 <oklofok> (define (power a b) (if (= b 0) 1 (* a (power a (- b 1))))) this can be done logarithmically
03:35:37 <Slereah> also, is there already a power function?
03:35:43 <Slereah> I tried every notation I could think off
03:36:22 <oklofok> makes no sense to do it like that
03:36:45 <oklofok> also what doesn't work @ that code
03:37:19 <Slereah> Well, since it has a mix of numbers and lists, I get type errors if I try doing all numbers.
03:37:48 <Slereah> I tried replacing (next- a) by (next- (number-> list a)), but I gget errors in some other function
03:40:32 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p152425552.txt
03:41:00 <augur> this is a problem for mapreduce XD
03:41:32 <oklofok> Slereah: just fyi, in functional programming, you don't usually change functions
03:41:38 <oklofok> you build new ones on top of the old ones
03:41:46 <Slereah> . cdr: expects argument of type <pair>; given 1234
03:41:59 <oklofok> especially when the functions are written by me, and you're breaking them with noobiness :P
03:42:36 <oklofok> seems it doesn't work, didn't actually try
03:43:28 <oklofok> number->list doesn't work?
03:43:46 <Slereah> But I like the idea of number next
03:47:10 <Slereah> I removed the list->number
03:48:38 <Slereah> My function was totally awesome all along!
03:48:52 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p335464534.txt
03:49:20 <oklofok> lol, i was thinking in oklotalk once again :D
03:49:42 <oklofok> i had an inner lambda in the function, and did recursion, of course recursed the function, not the lambda
03:50:06 <oklofok> btw, was basically the same error you had
03:50:56 <oklofok> i had the exact same error as you, but for entirely different reasons
03:51:13 <oklofok> not entirely, but the reason were different
03:51:27 <Slereah> 132113213221133112132113311211131221121321131211132221123113112221131112311332111213211322211312113211
03:52:24 <Slereah> What if I tried L(A(g_64,g_64),A(g_64,g_64))?
03:52:37 <oklofok> damn, my amazon wishlist is 508 dollars
03:53:02 <oklofok> Slereah: i suggest you try
03:54:28 <Slereah> So successor would be A(a(a(RANDOM)),n)
03:54:43 <Slereah> Remember what the look and say was for?
03:55:28 <Slereah> Well, something, but for lulz
03:55:54 <Slereah> The language with the ackermann, inverse ackermann, look and say, McCarthy function, and 3.
03:56:26 <oklofok> yes the Language That is So Cool
03:57:39 <Slereah> I get the feeling that many output will be 91, for some reason!
03:59:59 <augur> erg.. i cant think about this in lisp. x.x
04:01:08 <oklofok> you have two cases, cadr == car, and cadr != car
04:01:25 <augur> i know, shut up :P
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04:10:38 <augur> so i have the right grouping but i messed up on one part
04:12:01 <Slereah> It's a pretty horrible function to do functionally.
04:12:48 <Slereah> You could slap one together imperatively in five minutes.
04:13:08 <augur> but im trying to do it functionally in lisp so.. :P
04:13:27 <augur> if i used assq and set! this would be different.
04:13:29 <augur> it would be easier.
04:13:33 <augur> but im not doing it that way
04:13:42 <augur> ok so ive got grouping down
04:16:31 <Slereah> (define (s n) (A (a (a RANDOM)) n))
04:21:19 <Slereah> (define (fff n) (display (L n 1)) (newline) (fff (L n 1)))
04:21:27 <Slereah> O noes, I has a halting problem!
04:23:44 <augur> mine has nasty time complexity tho :(
04:25:08 <augur> wanna see the nastiness that is my version? :p
04:25:31 <augur> i can make the complexity better actually
04:25:44 <augur> let me do that actually
04:33:56 <augur> http://pastebin.com/d64f22c7a
04:34:26 <augur> collect should really be named flatten but
04:37:32 <augur> just do (see-n-say '(1 1 1 2 2 3 3 3 3)) and you'll get back (3 1 2 2 4 3)
04:38:20 <augur> i wonder how many quines see-n-say hays
04:38:30 <augur> i think it only has one, '(2 2)
04:43:06 <oklofok> god i hate it when pages let you leave comments
04:43:19 <oklofok> mostly because i cannot stop reading them
04:43:49 <oklofok> Slereah: it's not horrible to do functionally
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04:47:04 <oklopol> god i hate it when pages let you leave comments
04:47:06 <oklopol> mostly because i cannot stop reading them
04:47:08 <oklopol> Slereah: it's not horrible to do functionally
04:47:10 <oklopol> it is a bit complicated to do without good pattern matching facilities, granted
04:47:12 <oklopol> not sure where i discoed this time
04:50:30 <oklopol> the functional way for group is simply that if the cadr is different than the car, then just return (car,1):(recursion on cdr), and if it's the same, take what the recursion returns, and add one to the first element's cadr
04:51:11 <oklopol> in case you'r doing (group '(1 1 1 2 2 3 3 3)) -> '((1 3) '(2 2) '(3 3))
04:51:26 <oklopol> of course leave out that latter "'"'s
04:51:46 <augur> no i'm grouping '(1 1 1 2 2 3 3 3 3) -> '((1 1 1) (2 2) (3 3 3 3))
04:52:08 <oklopol> takes more space, but even easier
04:52:31 <oklopol> *the functional way for group is simply that if the cadr is different than the car, then just return (list car):(recursion on cdr), and if it's the same, take what the recursion returns, and add one to the first element and cons car to it
04:53:05 <oklopol> **the functional way for group is simply that if the cadr is different than the car, then just return (list car):(recursion on cdr), and if it's the same, take what the recursion returns, take its first element and cons car to it
04:53:37 <oklopol> it's simple to do functionally, the only problem is you need to splice and dice what you get from the recursion
04:53:52 <oklopol> which isn't pretty without pattern matching, which scheme doesn't have
04:54:12 <augur> oklopol, did you look at my version?
04:54:21 <augur> http://pastebin.com/d64f22c7a
04:57:54 <augur> what do you mean hmm? :P
04:58:11 <oklopol> that's almost look-and-say
04:58:41 <oklopol> you need to do (concat-map num-split (collect (count-kind (group nums))))
04:58:46 <augur> i've even got a game version that will continuously loop and show you the see-n-says
04:58:59 <oklopol> where numsplit is 34 -> '(3 4), 7 -> '(7), 257 -> '(2 5 7) etc
04:59:17 <oklopol> (and it's called look-and-say usually, but that's not important)
04:59:17 <augur> im not doing num split, thats silly
04:59:24 <augur> see-n-say sounds better
04:59:30 <augur> alliteration is good.
04:59:31 <oklopol> well if you don't split, it's not the same thing
05:00:10 <oklopol> but yeah, you usually don't do big numbererrs
05:01:11 <oklopol> i guess it's a prettier sequence without the split tho
05:01:47 <oklopol> it's just it doesn't get beyond 3 from a simple initial sequence, so makes no difference
05:02:17 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
05:03:48 <oklopol> look-and-say in oklotalk is {concat grp _}, if i'm not mistaken
05:04:51 <oklopol> well prolly {cct(rev\grp _}, i'm not sure about the exact definitions, because i don't have them on this machine
05:05:40 <oklopol> one more fix, important to get this right, you see, {cct(Rev\grp _}
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05:10:51 <augur> interesting property: if you start with a number other than 1, then the sequence will always end in (1 n)
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05:11:41 <augur> infact, if you start with any one number other than 1, everything but the last number will be the same
05:12:35 <oklofok> 5 -> 1 5 -> 1 1 1 5 -> 3 1 1 5
05:12:55 <augur> 3 -> 1 3 -> 1 1 1 3 -> 3 1 1 3
05:12:58 <augur> the pattern is just
05:12:58 <oklofok> 3 1 1 5 <<< everything but last number aren't the same
05:13:06 <augur> n -> 1 n -> 1 1 1 n -> 3 1 1 n -> ...
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05:14:34 <augur> for any (see-n-say '(a b)) thats equivalent to (flatten (see-n-say '(a) '(b)))
05:14:55 <augur> for any tuple with non-same adjacent members.
05:16:38 <augur> for any tuple of the same adjacent members
05:16:58 <augur> that reduces to a 2-tuple, the first being just the count and the member
05:17:11 <augur> which behaves like one-tuples again.
05:17:19 <augur> so see-n-say is competely and utterly boring. :)
05:17:37 <augur> except in those cases where the count == the member
05:18:06 <augur> or where the count == the previous member
05:18:59 <oklofok> err that reduces it's boringness quite a bit
05:19:23 <oklofok> but it *is* boring, i'm just saying *that* doesn't prove it
05:19:41 <augur> well this was a fun exercise in writing functional programs
05:23:51 <augur> oklofok: i'm allowing do...end notation for functions in my implementation of Reactance
05:24:03 <augur> just so you know. :P
05:28:38 <oklofok> well oklofok -> sleep usually in english
05:29:17 <oklofok> sleep doesn't go to oklofok
05:29:20 <augur> sure if you want :P
05:29:38 <augur> but the value of sleep is not the value of oklofok
05:29:41 <augur> if anything, it'd be the reverse
05:30:20 <augur> time == time_to_sleep: sleeping -> oklofok.state
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08:24:15 <revcompgeek> cool, my interpreter for BRZRK is starting to work
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14:49:16 <oklofok> but usually ppl don't do separate lines for just )'s
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15:43:09 <tusho> the mathematician is here!
15:43:20 <tusho> -- OERJAN EVACUATION PROCEDURE ACTIVATED --
15:43:54 * oerjan throws a 17-dimensional vector after tusho
15:44:38 <tusho> It's like a hyper-space dimensional warp pass! I'm going faster than LIGHT!!
15:44:46 <tusho> Everything is BENDING!! He's got me guys go on without me!
15:45:20 * oerjan diminishes the Riemannian curvature a bit for comfort
15:46:01 <tusho> oerjan: I feel like I just morphed into this vector.
15:46:07 * tusho swishes around it a bit
15:46:51 * tusho transforms into the Russell's paradox set
15:47:01 * oerjan hands tusho a helpful rotation matrix
15:47:10 <tusho> oerjan: I think we need a better set theory over here..
15:47:20 * tusho searches emself for emself
15:48:20 * oerjan digs up Quine's New Foundation theory
15:49:03 <tusho> HE'LL CAPTURE YOU!
15:49:13 <tusho> wait a second ... oerjan just made me impossible
15:49:19 * tusho promptly disappears. In a puff of logic.
15:49:35 <tusho> oerjan: little do you know!
15:49:42 <tusho> since I am a paradox, I can do ANYTHING! Mwahahaha!
15:49:45 * tusho comes back as a turkey
15:49:51 * oerjan finds a universal net to snare pikhq with
15:50:11 * pikhq uses a universal constructor to fight it
15:50:44 * tusho spends 3 hours powering up a lambda calculus reducer
15:51:14 * tusho turns into a parrot and starts reducing (\x.xx)(\x.xx)
15:51:30 <oerjan> your puny constructive automaton cannot match the power of the Axiom of Choice!
15:51:59 <oerjan> that was for pikhq btw
15:52:14 <oerjan> actually it goes for LC too
15:52:56 <tusho> oerjan: i know who it was for
15:53:01 <tusho> I was just remarking that I was done for too
15:54:53 <tusho> oerjan: what happened.
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15:55:19 <oerjan> darn i switched to New Foundation and forgot that it doesn't have AC. AIEEE!
15:55:52 * tusho throws the constantly-reducing expression at oerjan
15:56:16 <tusho> A homing boomerang.
15:56:37 * tusho locks it on to oerjan
15:56:54 * oerjan puts NF back in the sack.
15:57:06 * tusho turns into R again
15:57:32 <tusho> oerjan: no, the Russell's paradox set
15:57:53 * tusho searches for emself in emself to break oerjan's brain
15:58:05 <pikhq> oerjan: But at least my constructive automaton ends all scarcity!
15:58:06 <oerjan> you cannot break what is already broken
15:58:11 <pikhq> Viva la revolucion!
15:58:30 * tusho wonders what to do now.
15:58:50 * tusho picks a random set theory from wikipedia
15:58:59 <oerjan> no, c is right for spanish
15:59:02 * tusho takes out Kripke-Platek set theory and turns into a dog
15:59:56 * tusho pushes oerjan, after thinking of nothing more creative
15:59:58 <oerjan> unless you also want s/a/e/ to make it french
16:00:49 * tusho pushes himself to the stack; infinite times.
16:00:52 <tusho> The call stack, of course.
16:02:17 <tusho> oerjan: did the universe just disappear
16:02:19 <tusho> terrible error handling
16:02:23 <tusho> I was expecting something lisp-based
16:02:48 <tusho> oerjan: nope to what?
16:03:04 <tusho> what's happening then?
16:03:27 <oerjan> since a few billion years
16:03:36 <tusho> ... which sense of 'bang', exactly? The terry pratchett sense?
16:03:56 * oerjan hasn't read that book he thinks
16:04:31 <tusho> oerjan: It's just The Colour of Magic
16:04:50 <oerjan> in that case i've probably forgotten it
16:09:08 <oerjan> babies? here? i distinctly recall a 13-year age limit...
16:09:36 <tusho> Slereah_: actually, oklopol said that
16:10:49 <oerjan> oklopol said _who_ was 12?
16:11:58 * oerjan guesses it must be ehird's little brother (or maybe sister), then.
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16:12:28 <tusho> oerjan: yes, i got it
16:12:34 <tusho> i was just clearing up any confusion for logreaders
16:15:13 <oerjan> does "tusho" mean something? it seems to be japanese.
16:15:37 <tusho> it was formed via 'type some characters that are pronouncable, check if it has any relevant google results'
16:15:54 <tusho> but it does sound slightly japanese now that you mention it
16:16:09 <oerjan> and it _does_ appear in some japanese company names
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16:17:15 <tusho> oerjan: I noticed that when I googled, but I dismissed it because when is that going to overlap?
16:17:32 <tusho> I doubt it actually means anything, though.
16:17:41 <Slereah_> I think I have an idea for my mulambda thingy
16:17:48 <oerjan> hm is that livejournal entry yours?
16:18:01 <tusho> oerjan: I believe so, I think I joined it a while back in case I ever needed it
16:18:01 <Slereah_> To make it more eso-friendly, unlambda style.
16:18:17 <tusho> best to get it before anyone else does, right?
16:18:52 <tusho> 20:08:24 <augur> well, now we know how to separate the men from the boys
16:18:52 <tusho> 20:08:47 <lament> by... cuming on their faces?
16:18:52 <tusho> 20:38:17 <augur> well i didnt cum on CALAMARI's face
16:18:59 <tusho> i'm not sure I like the google results for 'tusho'
16:19:14 <tusho> oerjan: ah, I remember joining that. cave story fan club
16:19:22 <tusho> (cave story = indie game released in 2004)
16:19:50 <tusho> i think it was a case of "huh. profile's a bit bare. oh well, i'll add this."
16:20:00 <tusho> and then "now to promptly forget about it"
16:20:45 <Slereah_> Instead of function definition, I'll use for instance for f(x, y,z,...,0) = g(x,y,z,...), f(x,y,z,...,s(m)) = h(x,y,z,...,m,f(x,y,z,...,m)) -> rec (g, h, m, x, y, z, ...)
16:20:45 <Slereah_> That way, all can hold in a line
16:21:04 <oerjan> there is Nippo Tusho and Toyota Tusho, hm...
16:21:15 <tusho> Maybe it's a place in japan?
16:21:15 <Slereah_> So addition would be rec(pi(3,3), comp(s, pi(3,3)), m, n)
16:21:40 <oerjan> it's a place in Ethiopia at least
16:22:30 <oerjan> hm the Toyota one is a misspelling on a link
16:23:01 <oerjan> or wait ... it T always TS before u in japanese?
16:23:14 <tusho> 'tusho' makes google typo into 'tsusho'
16:23:22 <tusho> which I presume actually means something, but I fail to care
16:23:33 <tusho> tusho.org is available among other stuff so that's good enough for me
16:29:11 <pikhq> oerjan It most certainly is.
16:29:55 <tusho> pikhq: You know japanese - what is tsusho?
16:30:04 <tusho> I am guessing that Nippo Tusho and Toyota Tusho are typos for tsusho.
16:30:12 <pikhq> I just know it sure as fuck isn't tusho.
16:30:31 <Slereah_> Isn't japanese supposed to be (C)V(n)?
16:31:09 <oerjan> do the japanese characters at the top of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Tsusho help?
16:31:15 <Slereah_> A syllable = possible consonant, vowel, possible nasal consonant
16:31:34 <pikhq> That's a mora, actually. . .
16:31:38 <Slereah_> San would work, but not prick (kekeke)
16:31:50 <pikhq> And a mora does not necessarily have a vowel.
16:32:14 <pikhq> Japanese divides things into mora, not syllables.
16:32:40 <pikhq> Lemme find the Wikipedia page.
16:32:49 <pikhq> I get the feeling I'm saying the wrong word.
16:32:59 <pikhq> No, that's the right word.
16:33:02 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_(linguistics)
16:33:34 <oerjan> putting that into babelfish gives "Toyota commerce"
16:34:12 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology#Moras_and_phonotactics
16:34:56 <Slereah_> So... where does tsu fit in that system?
16:35:04 <pikhq> Tsu is a single mora.
16:36:36 <pikhq> Also, in some dialects, that's pronounced /t/. . .
16:36:50 <Slereah_> Well, a cluster isn't a single consonant.
16:37:02 <pikhq> Fine; it's CCV. :p
16:37:19 <pikhq> And the only case thereof in Japanese.
16:37:36 <oerjan> japanese has doubled consonants too doesn't it?
16:37:41 <tusho> pikhq: I assume 'tsusho' is pretty darn rare, right?
16:37:46 <tusho> And therefore the typo 'tusho' even more rare.
16:37:59 <tusho> I guess it'll only be a problem if I move to Japan? :P
16:38:15 <pikhq> oerjan: That's just an artifact of Romanisation.
16:38:18 <Slereah_> I'm not sure seppuku is a cluster
16:38:27 <oerjan> my guess is tsusho means "commerce"
16:38:37 <pikhq> In Japanese, that's written 'sextupuku'.
16:38:41 <oerjan> i cannot find a definitive entry on it
16:39:00 <oerjan> pikhq: i don't believe you
16:39:03 <pikhq> How to put that in IPA is much debated.
16:39:19 <tusho> Slereah_: So what am I? rpae?
16:40:10 <Slereah_> Mulambda seems really horrible to write :o
16:40:19 <Slereah_> I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not
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16:42:06 <pikhq> That seems to be stuck in IPA as [sep:ɯkɯ]
16:43:33 <oerjan> pikhq: erm that 'sextupuku' above was it a misspelling, a joke, or an actual transliteration?
16:43:48 <pikhq> oerjan: Valid transliteration.
16:43:58 <pikhq> The 'xtu' represents a little 'tsu'.
16:44:09 <tusho> Sextupuku sounds like a bizzare japanese sexual ritual
16:44:22 <pikhq> Which is how the 'consonant doubling' is written in kana.
16:45:14 <Slereah_> "'bizzare japanese sexual ritual" is redundant.
16:45:38 <pikhq> I think just the part "Japanese ritual" is needed. :p
16:45:50 <pikhq> Or even "Bizzare Japanese ritual".
16:46:02 <oerjan> is every single word actually redundant there? :D
16:46:13 <tusho> pikhq: There are non-bizzare japanese rituals?
16:46:24 <Slereah_> But "japanese sexual ritual" doesn't need bizarre.
16:46:57 <tusho> ... The Japanese do things other than rituals?
16:47:02 <tusho> I think we just need "Japanese".
16:47:07 <tusho> "Sextupuku sounds Japanese."
16:47:08 <Slereah_> I'm pretty sure that all sexual ritual are bizarre
16:47:22 <oerjan> but if you have the other words, isn't Japanese an obvious conclusion too?
16:47:24 <pikhq> They also make porn of your mom.
16:47:30 <oerjan> so _every_ single word is redundant
16:47:58 <tusho> Solution: Swedish chef makes Japan's new language.
16:48:02 <tusho> Borku borku borku.
16:49:52 <pikhq> I'd like to complement you on creating sudo-Japanese which can't be written in Japanese script.
16:50:22 <pikhq> "Bor" can't be written, nor can "Di", "egg", or "du".
16:50:59 <Slereah_> Actually, it was a quote from the Swedish chef.
16:51:31 <Slereah_> When he was trying to make some eggs. But his chicken only made ping pong balls :o
16:52:32 <tusho> pikhq: So how would you translit. 'Bork' into japanese?
16:53:31 <tusho> pikhq: That is so stereotypical I love it.
16:53:38 <pikhq> Which would make Swedish chef references unintentional puns.
16:53:58 <pikhq> ("Boku" is a fairly informal way of saying "I")
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16:59:58 <ais523> Slereah_: an evil and mildly upset smiley? what's that for?
17:00:44 <ais523> I wasn't here yesterday because I was DMing a roleplaying scenario for 10 hours
17:00:58 <ais523> D&D, the Tomb of Horrors
17:01:23 <Slereah_> Apart from the planescape part.
17:01:28 <ais523> normally we don't play anything nearly so lethal, but we were investigating what happened if you put munchkins in a famously-lethal scenario
17:01:34 <ais523> apparently the munchkins win, at least so far
17:02:14 <Slereah_> Maybe you should try some sort of Paranoia meets Call of Cthulhu.
17:02:57 <oerjan> ooh, the Tomb of Horrors. i have merely _heard_ of its evil.
17:03:40 <tusho> hmm, I'm not in #ESO
17:03:40 <ais523> oerjan: it's pretty bad, it would have killed the characters several times over if they hadn't thought of hiding inside the walls and manipulating everything with telekinesis
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17:14:40 <Slereah_> Well, I'm going to the university, to check the exam results.
17:14:57 <ais523> Slereah_: mine aren't out for a week or so yet
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17:37:39 <tusho> ihope is on Agora but not #ircnomic. Hmm.
17:54:33 <tusho> ais523: The words 'the game'. :P
17:55:01 * ais523 is still reading through Agora backlog
17:58:47 <Slereah> Well, not in English apparently
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17:59:02 <Slereah> I can just sit on my ass in my underwear.
18:08:59 <Slereah> http://pastebin.com/f6c9420ce
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18:10:07 <Slereah> http://pastebin.com/f7a13fa58
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18:17:59 <tusho> oh god php is so awful
18:18:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:18:47 <ais523> sorry, connetion problems
18:19:29 <tusho> you only missed one thing
18:19:35 <tusho> and that was me commenting on just how awful php is
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18:24:12 <tusho> ais523: you'll like this, I think:
18:24:18 <tusho> cocoa's date parser will parse "a week ago at dinner time"
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18:35:23 <oerjan> what about "four score and seven years ago"?
18:35:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:35:55 <Slereah_> Well, my grandmother wasn't born.
18:36:25 <Slereah_> What about "Dinner time. IN HELL"
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18:56:10 <revcompgeek> my interpreter for BRZRK is starting to work!
19:02:36 <revcompgeek> just a few more bugs to fix and i can post it
19:02:49 <revcompgeek> i will only be able to post a PPC mac binary though
19:03:44 <ais523> I have a D compiler here
19:03:53 <ais523> quite a few people here will do
19:06:16 <ais523> revcompgeek: Funge-98 interp
19:06:44 <ais523> Deewiant wrote it IIRC
19:07:00 <tusho> nobody mention A-n-M-a-s-t-e-r's name
19:07:04 <tusho> he'll start advertising cfunge
19:07:27 <ais523> tusho: what's wrong with that?
19:10:01 <revcompgeek> i've been meaning to install a compiler on my PC anyway
19:10:40 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, *I* have a D compiler because of Plof.
19:11:02 <pikhq> Plof comes from Gregor. Gregor is a D diety. Obviously, Plof is written in D. ;)
19:13:30 <tusho> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
19:17:15 <ais523> AnMaster: tusho was trying to get everyone to not nickping you for some reason
19:17:24 <ais523> and Slereah_ did just to annoy them, I think
19:17:26 <AnMaster> I'm trying to bind * on both ipv4 and ipv6 atm and failing so I'm irritated, was the highlight there for some reason!?
19:17:42 <ais523> AnMaster: tusho = ehird
19:18:06 <tusho> thank god he didn't mention cfu - oops
19:19:07 <AnMaster> tusho, no this is for crossfire, the open source MMORPG
19:19:29 <AnMaster> and well cfunge is almost complete, apart from SOCK fingerprint and replacing with a better hash library
19:20:00 <ais523> hmm... is there a functional fingerprint for Befunge?
19:20:08 <ais523> if there were, then maybe TRDS could be used to write Feather
19:20:19 <tusho> ais523: you can still write it
19:20:24 <tusho> just write it as if interpreting in an imperative languge
19:20:31 <tusho> ais523: TRDS reverses IO, though, so beware
19:20:32 <ais523> I understand how it works
19:20:34 <tusho> (console IO, at least)
19:20:44 <ais523> tusho: reversing IO's almost exactly what I want
19:20:47 <ais523> reversing output, at least
19:20:58 <tusho> ais523: it redoes stdin requests, I believe
19:21:05 <ais523> I'm not sure whether reversing input would be good
19:21:12 <ais523> and redoing it would be Very Bad
19:21:28 <tusho> ais523: TRDS = call/cc that also keeps the global heap
19:21:29 <ais523> reversing it but rereading the same stream would be alright, though
19:21:38 <ais523> tusho: yes, that's the operation I want in Feather, really
19:21:47 <tusho> ais523: but without redoing input.
19:21:48 <ais523> but I was planning to do it by using call/cc and not using the heap at all
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19:26:59 <tusho> ais523: you shouldn't have mentioned your win by paradox
19:27:03 <tusho> people will object now
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19:27:38 <pikhq> oerjan: Congrats on having an Erdos number of 4.
19:28:07 * pikhq needs to cowrite with Oerjan. :p
19:28:23 <ais523> it was obviously coming
19:28:26 <tusho> 4? Bah, how puny. :-P
19:28:39 <pikhq> Actually, if PEBBLE counts as some sort of research collaboration, then I have an Erdos number of 5.
19:28:58 <tusho> AnMaster: I love pissing you off by continually mentioning TRDS, did I mention you should do TRDS?
19:29:11 <tusho> pikhq: What's your Erdős–Bacon number? :P
19:29:19 <AnMaster> tusho, and it doesn't piss me off
19:29:27 <AnMaster> it just makes me pitty you for your ignorance
19:29:29 <augur_> i have an erdos number of 2 :O
19:29:31 <pikhq> Probably undefined.
19:29:39 <tusho> augur_: 1's more impressive :P
19:29:54 <augur_> i think erdos died before i was born so.. :P
19:30:08 <pikhq> 0's much more impressive.
19:30:08 <augur_> he lived longer than i thought
19:30:37 <augur_> famous hungarian mathemagician
19:30:48 <augur_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erdős#Erd.C5.91s_number
19:30:52 <tusho> pikhq: 0 is pretty rare though :P
19:31:07 <augur_> rare enough to only exist in one person :P
19:31:13 <tusho> my erdos-bacon number is, uh, infinity+infinity :-P
19:31:15 <augur_> and then not any more.
19:31:54 <Slereah_> With the whole chanology thing
19:31:58 <augur_> hank aaron has an erdos number of 1!!! O_O
19:32:10 <augur_> you dont have a bacon number, slereah, shut up.
19:32:19 <Slereah_> They signed a baseball together or something, IIRC
19:32:36 <augur_> that's why i said it followed by :P
19:32:47 <pikhq> I must admit, I enjoy that Erdos has an Erdos-Bacon number of 4.
19:32:48 <tusho> In the news. Years ago.
19:32:53 <tusho> For like 2 seconds.
19:33:11 <tusho> pikhq: It would be better if he had an Erdos-Bacon number of 0.
19:33:12 <augur_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Erdosnumber.png/300px-Erdosnumber.png
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19:33:31 <Slereah_> THE MOST AWESOME INDIVIDUAL THERE IS
19:33:32 <pikhq> The lowest possible one is 1.
19:33:41 <tusho> pikhq: Not if he's Bacon AND Erdos!
19:34:11 * ais523 thinks that Erdos * Bacon could be more interesting
19:34:26 <Slereah_> And you ais523, what's your Erdos number!
19:34:36 <tusho> All the people with an Erdos number of 1 should dedicate their lives to writing papers with whomever asks.
19:35:03 <Slereah_> tusho : There's actually been auctions for such things
19:35:10 <ais523> I haven't co-authored any papers yet
19:35:19 <tusho> Slereah_: Yeah, I know.
19:35:26 <tusho> An Erdos-Bacon number of 0 would own though.
19:35:31 <pikhq> However, I have cowritten software.
19:35:41 <pikhq> Which is itself a form of publication. ;)
19:35:51 <pikhq> (thank you, Oerjan)
19:35:56 <augur_> The only ways a lower number could be achieved would be:
19:35:57 <tusho> What if Erdos appeared in a movie with Bacon?
19:35:58 <augur_> for an individual who had co-authored an academic paper with Paul Erdős to appear in a movie with Kevin Bacon;
19:36:01 <tusho> Or Bacon wrote a paper with Erdos?
19:36:01 <augur_> for Bacon to co-author an academic paper with someone with an Erdős number of 1, which would give Bacon an Erdős–Bacon number of 2;
19:36:03 <tusho> That would be hilarious.
19:36:04 <augur_> for anyone who appeared in the documentary N is a number along with Erdős to appear in a film with Bacon, which would posthumously give Erdős an Erdős–Bacon number of 2;
19:36:07 <augur_> for Kevin Bacon to appear in a film that also uses stock footage of Erdős, giving Erdős an Erdős-Bacon number of 1;
19:36:10 <augur_> for a heretofore unknown joint academic paper by Bacon and Erdős to be published, giving Bacon an Erdős-Bacon number of 1.
19:36:13 <augur_> it is impossible for anyone to have an Erdős-Bacon number of 0 since Kevin Bacon is the only person with Bacon number 0 and and Paul Erdős is the only person with Erdős number 0.
19:36:54 <tusho> Slereah_: That would be 0
19:37:10 <Slereah_> http://www.legorobotcomics.com/comics/21.jpg
19:37:27 <ais523> what if someone creates a film which contains stock footage of both Erdős and Bacon?
19:37:31 <oklopol> tusho: if you try going down @ iwbtg, the boss is quite simple, there's basically just one non-trivial thing @ it, but it takes about 5 minutes to come, and you have to do it 3 times... :D
19:37:45 <tusho> oklopol: getting up the appearing blocks sux though.
19:37:54 <augur_> slereah: wtf is that? ;p;
19:38:13 <Slereah_> Cracked also published a list of people linked to Paris Hilton, via penises
19:38:23 <tusho> Erdos-Bacon-Paris number
19:38:24 <augur_> thats like half the planet dude
19:38:34 <Slereah_> Such people as the Prince Charle, Osama Ben Laden and Adolf Hitler
19:38:42 <oklopol> tusho: what sucks about it?
19:38:42 <augur_> EVERYONE has a Paris number of 1
19:38:51 <tusho> Err, Erdos-Bacon-Hilton
19:38:52 <augur_> even _I_ do! she's such a skank
19:38:55 <oklopol> can't remember them or can't jump at the right time?
19:39:09 <tusho> oklopol: can't jump at the right time
19:39:15 <ais523> the UCC has started up again, it seems
19:39:22 <augur_> i come home one day and there she is, suckin my cock and i'm like DAMN PARIS
19:39:24 <ais523> tusho: underhanded C contest
19:39:29 <augur_> AINT YOU GOT NO SHAME?
19:39:35 <ais523> where you have to write a program that appears to work but doesn't
19:39:39 <oklopol> well, just try to remember the left-right sequence, and your brain should supply the details of their positions automatically
19:39:41 <ais523> even when looking at the source code
19:39:49 <oklopol> i mean, what direction to jump
19:39:51 <ais523> Slereah_: no, Underhanded
19:39:57 <augur_> better then Obfuscation!
19:40:01 <ais523> this year, you have to write a program that appears to redact an image
19:40:21 <ais523> tusho: yes, but I'm talking to the whole channel
19:40:52 <ais523> one I can think of is to stack-smash the entire image into metadata of itself
19:41:03 <ais523> but I don't know how much metadata PPM images have
19:41:12 <tusho> that's too suspicious
19:41:29 <ais523> tusho: well, you could just load the entire image into memory
19:41:29 <tusho> ais523: ok, how about this!
19:41:33 <tusho> I have a great idea.
19:41:37 <ais523> and then write the whole thing back
19:41:44 <tusho> Basically, redact things to opacity=0.
19:41:54 <ais523> tusho: i don't think PPMs have opacity values
19:41:59 <ais523> and really, that's obvious
19:42:06 <tusho> It's obvious, but it isn't unthinkable
19:42:12 <tusho> I can imagine someone writing it like that
19:42:15 <ais523> Slereah_: well, my ais523 number's 0 no matter how you count it, I think
19:42:32 <pikhq> ais523 said he's never coauthored.
19:42:34 <ais523> tusho: reminds me of people redacting images in vector formats by drawing a black rectangle over them
19:42:43 <pikhq> So, the highest such number is 0.
19:42:57 <ais523> especially in PDF, where you can copy-paste things from underneath the box if you drag from outside it
19:43:10 <tusho> ais523 number = links to people who have argued with ais523
19:43:21 <tusho> if you argue with someone who has argued with ais523 , that's 2
19:43:24 <tusho> I have an ais523 number of 1.
19:43:50 <AnMaster> <ais523> this year, you have to write a program that appears to redact an image <-- redact means?
19:43:54 <tusho> I don't think you've argued with him, Slereah_
19:43:57 <ais523> AnMaster: block out some of the pixels
19:44:02 <ais523> i.e. change a rectangle to black
19:44:06 <ais523> so you can't see what's behind ir
19:44:14 <ais523> Slereah_: what really?
19:44:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, so how can you "seem to succeed at it but then fail"?
19:44:21 <tusho> Slereah_: it has to be about something pointless but real
19:44:25 <tusho> and also it has to reach no conclusion
19:44:29 <tusho> (must end in a dice throw)
19:44:32 <tusho> (which is then ignored)
19:44:44 <ais523> AnMaster: e.g. you could stegonagraphically embed the pixels that you black out in the rest of the image
19:44:45 <AnMaster> just set alpha to 0 everywhere in the png
19:44:53 <tusho> AnMaster: that was my idea.
19:45:09 <tusho> yeah, I didn't know ppm didn't have opacity
19:45:13 <AnMaster> and ppm doesn't have an alpha channel
19:45:21 <ais523> anyway, I've thought of a way to comply with the letter but not the spirit of the contest
19:45:30 <tusho> [[For the 2008 contest: what does “blocked out” mean?
19:45:30 <tusho> It means those pixels are apparently replaced with non-image. It can mean overlaying a black rectangle, or any colored rectangle, or a pattern, or random noise. As long as it appears to remove those image pixels, that’s fine. ]]
19:45:34 <ais523> you use an off-by-one error to redact a slightly smaller block than stated
19:45:35 <tusho> ais523: random noise = BINGO
19:45:45 <tusho> you can just mangle the image
19:45:49 <ais523> that way some of the pixels are still left...
19:45:54 <ais523> tusho: I've thought of a better way
19:46:02 <ais523> generate the random noise with a standard RNG
19:46:06 <ais523> but /seed it from the image/
19:46:17 <ais523> that way, you can reconstruct the seed by looking at the pattern, in theory
19:46:35 <ais523> even better, seed it with the contents of uninitialised memory
19:46:42 <ais523> which happens to contain the image
19:46:44 <tusho> ais523: debian will fuck that up.
19:46:51 <ais523> and put annotations for a couple of memory-check tools
19:47:03 <AnMaster> ais523, oh yes valgrind and so on yes indeed
19:47:05 <ais523> with a comment saying "Debian please don't comment this out, we need entropy from somewhere"
19:47:16 <tusho> ais523: no, better
19:47:21 <tusho> put the commented out MD_update line
19:47:32 <tusho> next to MD_update, put:
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19:47:33 <ais523> unfortunately there's no good reason to seed an RNG that's designed to replace part of an image with random noise
19:47:36 <tusho> 'Debian says this is bad'
19:47:42 <AnMaster> ais523, how can you make the uninitialized memory contain the image?
19:47:53 <ais523> AnMaster: main() calls two functions
19:47:54 <AnMaster> it would depend on the malloc implementation
19:47:59 <ais523> the first loads the image into an auto variable
19:48:08 <ais523> uninit memory on the stack is easy enough to collide with
19:48:15 <AnMaster> ais523, however I think this is very brittle?
19:48:23 <AnMaster> doesn't openbsd zero stuff out?
19:48:24 <ais523> yes, but stack-smashing's won the UCC before
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19:48:36 <tusho> AnMaster: they don't mind
19:48:41 <AnMaster> at least I'm quite sure it will fail on openbsd ;P
19:48:47 <tusho> the whole point they use C is because you can do stuff like that
19:48:51 <AnMaster> ais523, got a link to this UCC?
19:48:58 <tusho> http://underhanded.xcott.com/
19:48:59 <ais523> http://underhanded.xcott.com
19:49:01 <tusho> but I'm not ais523
19:49:08 <ais523> and even put in the final slash
19:49:18 <tusho> ais523: let's argue about it
19:49:28 <ais523> nah, arguing's a bad idea
19:49:37 <tusho> not if you like ais523 numbers
19:49:41 <tusho> anyone want an ais523 number of 2?
19:50:47 <tusho> Slereah_: FUCK YOU, I WANT TO OFFER YOU ONE
19:50:53 <tusho> YOU BASTARD. You can't fucking appreciate nice offers.
19:51:01 <tusho> This channel is a piece of shit.
19:51:04 <Slereah_> I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKING AIS NUMBER!
19:51:10 <tusho> Slereah_: HOW DARE YOU
19:51:15 <tusho> I toil for DAYS to offer you this oppertunity
19:51:19 * AnMaster gives Slereah_ and tusho a level 1 AnMaster number
19:51:22 <lament> OMG YOU NOOBS LOL!!!!!!!
19:51:23 <tusho> YOU FUCKING SNEAKY BASTARD
19:51:30 <tusho> HOW DARE YOU STEAL THAT FROM ME Slereah_
19:51:47 <Slereah_> Sorry, I can't argue with you tusho
19:51:56 <Slereah_> Otherwise, you might take it back
19:52:46 <tusho> Slereah_: Wait how is that possible.
19:53:08 <Slereah_> But I think science is involved somehow
19:54:16 * Slereah_ is trying to spot the secret G-Man in "Concerned"
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19:55:20 <tusho> I don't think "What the #$*! Do We Know!?" should count to an erdos-bacon number.
19:55:41 <tusho> If it can even be called that, instead of "New Age bullshit propaganda posing as quantum theory"
19:55:52 <Slereah_> Does it star Kevin Bacon fucking Paris Hilton with Paul Erdos?
19:56:14 <tusho> Slereah_: That would be more educational.
19:56:15 <lament> he grabs erdos and fucks paris hilton with him.
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19:57:24 <Slereah_> For a guy who collaborated with other 500 dudes
19:57:25 <ais523> heh, from the UCC FAQ: Q. "Won't this contest have a bad influence on our youth?" A. "I don't see why: all I'm doing is inviting people to write malicious software in exchange for money."
19:57:29 <Slereah_> I can't think of a theorem with his name or anything
19:57:43 <tusho> ais523: the next paragraph is better
19:57:58 <ais523> nah, less good, I think
19:58:33 <Slereah_> They could encourage TERRORISM
19:58:37 <Slereah_> Like the people at "Unmaintainable code"
20:01:34 * oerjan wonders how pikhq found his erdos number
20:01:45 <Deewiant> http://www.ams.org/mathscinet/collaborationDistance.html
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20:04:21 <Slereah_> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/unmaintermite.html
20:04:51 <oerjan> so easy compared to when i tried finding it. although it may only be based on math articles i guess.
20:05:18 <tusho> Slereah_: What's worse, the guy who runs mindprod.com is a HOMOSEXUAL TERRORIST! (I know this because I poked around his site and he has a section called Gay or whatever and it talks about how gay he is and how much he loves anal sex or somethibng.)
20:06:18 <tusho> I mean, sheesh, he's like the ANTI-AMERIKA.
20:06:50 <Slereah_> Gays are trying to undermine our codes!
20:06:56 <oerjan> as an aside, norway legalized gay marriage last week
20:07:02 <Slereah_> Of course, my own code is already unmaintainable
20:07:50 <tusho> oerjan: only last week?
20:08:04 <oerjan> there was a civil union law before that
20:08:28 <tusho> Civil union vs marriage is the stupidest distinction I ever heard of.
20:08:40 <oerjan> but now the law makes no technical difference between gays and other peoples' marriages
20:08:44 <Slereah_> Well, we don't want no fagsgetting our marriage.
20:08:57 <tusho> Slereah_: :awesome:
20:13:27 <Slereah_> I'll start writing the mulambda thing.
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20:17:52 <pikhq> oerjan: I have been asked by a Mr. Murphy to pester you to return to Agora.
20:18:07 <tusho> oerjan: ihope just broke agora.
20:18:09 <Slereah_> I should probably feed lists to the rec. and comp. functions, since they don't have a set number of arguments
20:18:13 <tusho> oerjan: it's very exciting.
20:18:13 <pikhq> You're being asked by a Minister Without Portfolio, man!
20:18:16 <Slereah_> It will probably be easier to parse.
20:18:21 <ais523> pikhq: Murphy asked oerjan to return to Agora?
20:18:28 <tusho> ais523: he's probably hyperventilating
20:18:30 <ais523> Murphy's one of the most important people there
20:18:37 <ais523> tusho: actually, e probably hasn't read it yet
20:18:41 <ais523> and anyway, it might not work
20:18:42 <tusho> 'MAYBE OERJAN CAN SAVE ME'
20:18:44 <pikhq> I'm on IM with him as we speak.
20:18:46 <tusho> 'WITH MATHEMATICS!'
20:19:48 <ais523> ah, I know a trivial way to undo
20:19:54 <tusho> ais523: don't do it just yet
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22:45:12 <tusho> esolangs.org's kareha is broken
22:45:20 <tusho> it seems to encrypt tripcodes totally randomly
22:45:31 <tusho> and changes each post for the same trip
22:48:56 <graue> tusho: did you just notice this?
22:49:09 <tusho> graue: Just when I posted the latest esolang's forum thread.
22:49:21 <tusho> Which was ... 2008-06-05, apparently.
22:49:28 <tusho> I probably should have emailed you but oh well.
22:49:32 <tusho> I didn't think it too important.
22:49:37 <tusho> Most people just use the board to complain about the board.
22:52:17 <tusho> Which reminds me! I need to write an article re-debunking all the complaints about it sometime.
22:52:22 <tusho> But yeah. It should probably be fixed.
22:57:33 <tusho> graue: It's not a priority, though. I mostly post anonymously.
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23:18:47 <graue> tusho: ok, cool. thanks for the report. i have no idea why it would be doing that, but i will look into it when i get a chance
23:19:07 <tusho> graue: maybe the crypt() is a new-fangled one instead of regular DES?
23:19:14 <tusho> Dunno if Kareha explicitly uses des_crypt.
23:19:23 <graue> i think i looked into this problem like 2 years ago
23:19:32 <graue> with a different board on the same host
23:19:34 <tusho> secure tripcodes seem to work fine
23:19:35 <tusho> so I bet it's that
23:19:43 <graue> freebsd's crypt() is non-standard
23:19:51 <graue> there's no way to get the historic behavior back within perl
23:19:59 <tusho> graue: DES crypt isn't hard to implement, though, thankfully.
23:20:05 <tusho> There's one in JS lying around here.
23:20:10 <tusho> I'm sure it could be trivially translated into Perl
23:20:58 <graue> i now remember posting on the kareha board about the freebsd problem, and that developer guy (waha?) saying it was unfixable. i probably won't have the time to implement DES crypt in perl, though
23:21:06 <tusho> graue: http://hotaru.thinkindifferent.net/javacrypt.js
23:21:25 <tusho> the only hard bit is that MEGA-HUGE table at the end, it seems
23:21:36 <tusho> though it's a bit dense
23:21:53 <tusho> i wouldn't bother though.
23:22:21 <tusho> the developer is !WAHa.06x36 yes
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23:31:16 <tusho> http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/symbolic/spring08/
23:31:21 <tusho> Slereah: ++, I tell you!
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00:06:11 <Slereah_> I'm on the metamath mailing list?
00:06:33 <Slereah_> I needed to see some old posts.
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02:55:20 <psygnisfive> will the evaluator be eager or lazy, for reactance?
02:55:27 <psygnisfive> i think it'd have to be like.. hyper-eager, right?
02:55:59 <oklopol> well, you can have it either way
02:56:03 <psygnisfive> which means no lazy lists or anything like that as data structures
02:56:16 <oklopol> well no, that wouldn't really fit
02:56:36 <oklopol> reactions can be done either laziliy or eagerly
02:56:59 <psygnisfive> any change upstream has to immeditely propogate downstream
02:57:15 <oklopol> when getting the value of y, find all x -> y, get value of x, and set y to that
02:58:01 <psygnisfive> outputting is a reaction like any other :p
02:58:12 <oklopol> you need to get value of y
02:58:51 <oklopol> for printing y, you get the value of y
02:59:15 <psygnisfive> whenever anything upstream changes, it automatically flows downstream
02:59:52 <oklopol> 5 -> x, then find all x -> var, and set all var to x
02:59:55 <psygnisfive> thats "Establish a reaction between y and the output"
03:00:09 <psygnisfive> there is no "get y and put it into @" there
03:00:12 <oklopol> what exactly is the difference in behavior?
03:00:45 <oklopol> 3 -> x has the side-effect of outputting 3?
03:01:43 <psygnisfive> because there's this established reaction that the value of x flows down into @ at all times when x changes
03:02:05 <psygnisfive> and that change instantly propagates down the reactions into the output
03:02:51 <oklopol> sure i did, but i'm still sure we can view this lazily
03:03:26 <psygnisfive> because anything that outputs anything will need to be pushed immediately
03:04:49 <oklopol> it's just in this case the lazy way is the same
03:04:59 <oklopol> you still need to keep track of the old reactions
03:05:07 <oklopol> and update them every time variables update
03:06:53 <oklopol> y -> @; 3 -> x; x -> y; <<< this demonstrates the difference, but keeps the reverseness; y -> @; is simply stored, because "getting y" is impossible yet, then 3 -> x is stored, then x -> y; now y *can* be "gotten", so y -> @ executes, it gets y, which in turn gets x, which is 3
03:07:06 <oklopol> whereas the eager way would be to... well you know.
03:07:37 <psygnisfive> no, y -> @ wouldnt be stored at all, you'd start outputting "undefined"
03:08:04 <psygnisfive> when you set up x -> y the value of y immediately changes to reflect x and you immediately output 3
03:08:38 <psygnisfive> or whatever the equivalent would be in the language
03:08:53 <oklopol> i'll just make you a lazy version of my interp tomorrow, you're obviously tired
03:09:15 <oklopol> why would it output undefined?
03:09:42 <psygnisfive> when you establish a reaction, values flow from the left of the -> to the right
03:09:45 <oklopol> what is different between the lazy evaluation scheme and the eager one?
03:09:55 <oklopol> what's wrong with doing the same lazily?
03:10:26 <oklopol> y -> @; is a kept reaction, it will be triggered each time y gets a new value
03:10:42 <psygnisfive> it LACKS a value but it has the fact that it lacks a value
03:11:05 <oklopol> and what's different between that, and the lazy way of doing it, where you "can't get the value"?
03:11:06 <psygnisfive> what if i want to see if and when y gets defined?
03:11:17 <psygnisfive> i'd need to first know that it doesnt have a value
03:11:38 <psygnisfive> i mean, sure, perhaps in this one case it might be equivalent
03:11:52 <oklopol> don't give me that conceptual crap, give me an example where they differ
03:12:02 <psygnisfive> the first value change output will always occur are the same time i guess, yes ok.
03:12:25 <psygnisfive> because you're outputting constantly, so all changes will immediately propogate to @
03:12:30 <oklopol> err, if y is redefined later, the reaction is triggered again
03:12:56 <psygnisfive> the reaction immediately propogates from x to everything defined in terms of it
03:13:11 <psygnisfive> which means that changing x immediately has to propogate down to y then to @
03:13:24 <psygnisfive> because @ is sort of "constantly getting" y, which is "constantly getting" x
03:13:49 <oklopol> okay, and here we see how they are the exact same
03:14:08 <oklopol> i didn't say a thing i thought i said
03:14:27 <oklopol> but anyway, you need to trigger (y -> @) when x changes
03:14:49 <oklopol> it is, you only need to trigger outputs
03:15:45 <oklopol> yeah, basically, the trigger system is much less efficient
03:16:04 <oklopol> as you can do anything lazily
03:16:12 <psygnisfive> e.g. when you set a value, go through and find all @'s that depend on that value and then go through those reactions?
03:16:50 <oklopol> well i'm thinking just evaluate all (expr -> @) all the time, this is not about efficiency
03:16:59 <oklopol> it's about being able to do it lazily
03:17:41 <psygnisfive> well, part of the thing is that i can't imagine doing anything that doesn't have an -> @ in it
03:17:52 <psygnisfive> i mean, if you never output anything, then the program is pointless
03:18:07 <oklopol> each time you add a reaction, you evaluate each and every (expr -> @)
03:18:35 <psygnisfive> so "laziness" results in constant updating of @'s, which means constantly pushing values from inputs
03:18:38 <oklopol> "get value of expr and output it, unless no variables have changes"
03:21:12 <psygnisfive> we need to consider things like global objects and functions
03:21:16 <psygnisfive> mouse is going to need to be global. keyboard too.
03:21:20 <oklopol> once you get into inputs, laziness has problems, naturally
03:21:29 <psygnisfive> and i suppose as a global function, delay t v
03:21:48 <psygnisfive> well darlin, theres no reason to do reactive stuff without inputs :P
03:21:54 <oklopol> i'm talking about the simple subset with only (expression -> variable | port) reactions
03:21:58 <psygnisfive> because without it, you're just making haskell :)
03:22:58 <oklopol> well, all they really do is force you to evaluate all outputs all the time, which was in my theoretical implementation plan for making laziness work all along
03:23:16 <oklopol> true, given input, laziness as such makes no sense
03:23:41 <psygnisfive> wait, evaluate all outputs at the same time?
03:24:04 <oklopol> hmm, true, still doesn't work
03:24:15 <oklopol> because inputs that don't actually flow into output yet
03:24:24 <psygnisfive> we also need to define the semantics of delays :)
03:25:16 <oklopol> well i dislike the idea of doing them like that, but shure, shure
03:25:57 <oklopol> anyway, do you believe me in that it is possible to have lazy reactions with the same semantics *given no input*?
03:27:58 <psygnisfive> no, because delays introduce another issue.
03:28:03 <oklopol> for delays, i suggest a port whose values oscillates
03:28:43 <psygnisfive> ok, well then without delays and without input sure, i guess.
03:29:07 <oklopol> good, all i wanted was a nod, and "but that would be so inefficient it's ridiculous to even think about"
03:29:45 <psygnisfive> i think i have an idea for a new esolang, btw
03:30:18 <oklopol> well io is really just a convenience
03:30:36 <oklopol> i don't usually use it except for printing out the result of my computation, in say python
03:30:39 <psygnisfive> it's also the whole point of computation :)
03:31:09 <oklopol> well if you don't have implicit io, as in like a repl
03:31:21 <oklopol> then you have to use debugging to see your results
03:31:40 <psygnisfive> no writing to disk, no communicating to a server, nothing at all.
03:31:51 <oklopol> umm, that's basically all esolangs
03:32:04 <oklopol> stdio is enough for anything
03:32:25 <oklopol> the pipes you lead to your prog and out of it
03:32:33 <oklopol> yeah, that's often the case with an esolang
03:32:44 <oklopol> you just have implicit io then
03:32:52 <oklopol> so the program works as a function
03:33:07 <oklopol> yeah, i did that with nopol
03:33:37 <oklopol> but still, you will debug and see it does the computation right, after that there's no need for io
03:33:49 <psygnisfive> The language is of the form S*, where S is the set of all imaginable symbols, and the rules are anything at all.
03:34:00 <oklopol> well that sounds a bit boring
03:34:13 <psygnisfive> when you tell the interpret to interpret a program
03:34:42 <psygnisfive> since you can't get IO, it doesn't matter whether or not the program actual ran, since it makes no difference
03:35:01 <psygnisfive> infact, the interpreter itself doesnt exist, since it would do nothing anyway
03:35:10 <oklopol> of course it makes a difference
03:35:15 <oklopol> no one cares about the result
03:35:21 <oklopol> it's about the computation
03:35:27 <oklopol> the beautiful concept of computation
03:35:46 <psygnisfive> because you dont care what the result of it is, you can simply say "the computation happened."
03:36:01 <oklopol> nopol owns your idea so much
03:36:21 <psygnisfive> its the fastest AND the slowest computer language in existence
03:38:52 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/nopol.txt <<< mapping a lambda over a list
03:39:47 <oklopol> that is, interprets the list in a as a lambda
03:40:24 <oklopol> <. a b> is a lambda, when called, the arguments are pattern matched on a, and b is returned
03:40:29 <psygnisfive> so its sort of like... if b = (b1 b2 b3 ...)
03:41:18 <oklopol> <: a b>, in lisp, would be roughly (a b)
03:41:41 <oklopol> anyway, that's pretty much it
03:41:45 <oklopol> except for the negative list
03:41:57 <oklopol> which is the list of the form > a b c<
03:42:19 <oklopol> positive = <>, negative = ><
03:42:31 <psygnisfive> what happens when you run it backwards in time?
03:43:11 <oklopol> anyway, negative lists aren't actually all that pretty, in that they are not the negative of lists
03:43:24 <oklopol> they are *kind of* the negative, but...
03:43:43 <oklopol> <... > a b c< ...> turns into
03:44:04 <oklopol> <<... a ...> <... b ...> <... c ...>>
03:44:23 <oklopol> >...< kinda maps the outer context for each element of it
03:44:43 <oklopol> this let's you do the map operation without actually writing it
03:44:48 <oklopol> doesn't really let you do anything else
03:45:01 <oklopol> but hey, it's kinda cool, and it has an incredibly confusing syntax
03:46:01 <oklopol> (nopol 2 will have negative lists as the perfect negative of lists, just don't know what that is yes)
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15:30:14 <tusho> The & sign in a book.
15:40:10 <tusho> AnMaster: The ? sign in a book.
15:40:32 <AnMaster> tusho, what on earth are you referring to
15:40:46 <tusho> AnMaster: The , sign in a book.
15:41:25 <AnMaster> so tell me tusho do you try to make any sense or are you just being silly
15:41:36 <tusho> AnMaster: The sign in a book.
15:46:56 <tusho> Deewiant: The ¨ sign in a book.
15:55:04 <tusho> oklopol: The ™ sign in a book.
16:06:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you get the joke?
16:07:11 <AnMaster> and tusho doesn't want to explain
16:07:21 <tusho> AnMaster: The ' sign in a book.
16:07:49 <Deewiant> Just checking if he'd respond differently :-)
16:08:13 <Deewiant> and then I thought about countering with signs until he runs out of ASCII but couldn't be bothered
16:08:13 <tusho> Deewiant: The ƨ sign in a book.
16:09:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you need to make him run out of unicode as well, please warn me in advance so I can part the channel if you do that, as I don't want my harddrive filled with such a log
16:09:31 <Deewiant> he wasn't using Unicode at the time
16:11:55 <tusho> AnMaster: The Æ sign in a book.
16:14:02 <AnMaster> The sign for which strlen(0) is true on IRC.
16:17:15 <tusho> The strlen(0) == 1 on IRC.
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17:05:59 <tusho> The IRC mechanical mechanism in a book.
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17:29:23 <tusho> oklopol: The cool in a book.
17:34:18 <oklopol> so cool an cool in an book
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17:43:16 <tusho> wasn't expecting you today :P
17:43:19 <ais523> I was wondering which channel you were going to say hi in
17:43:25 <ais523> and neither was I, I may have to leave in a bit
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19:16:38 <tusho> On an unrelated note!
19:16:45 <tusho> I am going to write a C->JS compiler.
19:16:53 <tusho> (ais523: this means C-INTERCAL in the browser. Fear!)
19:17:15 <ais523> tusho: that isn't quite as insane as one thing I thought of
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19:17:23 <ais523> writing a BF back end for gcc
19:17:32 <ais523> so arbitrary C programs could be compiled into Brainfuck
19:17:44 <ais523> one issue would be with syscalls, etc
19:17:45 <tusho> Although ... I'm not sure I'll allow arbitary memory access in mine.
19:17:50 <tusho> That is, pointers become references.
19:17:56 <tusho> That'll be more efficient (and practical)..
19:18:09 <tusho> Does C-INTERCAL ever just dereference some memory?
19:18:11 <ais523> so in the end I thought it would be easiest just to make a Brainfuck version of Linux
19:18:16 <ais523> so you only have to implement a CPU
19:18:23 <ais523> tusho: pointers are used a lot
19:18:29 <ais523> even pointers with varargs, on occasion
19:18:35 <tusho> ais523: but, just like:
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19:18:52 <ais523> well, it throws around function pointers
19:18:58 <tusho> ais523: but no pointer arithmetic?
19:19:16 <tusho> but I'm not implementing a big memory array
19:19:21 <ais523> what about things like ary[-1]
19:19:26 <ais523> that happens on occasion
19:19:28 <tusho> ais523: that won't work
19:19:44 <ais523> tusho: yes it does, because ary is set to array+1 earlier
19:19:53 <tusho> ais523: ah, that'll work then
19:19:59 <ais523> and of course there's the standard *x++ trick
19:20:01 <tusho> int ary[5]; ary[-1]
19:20:11 <ais523> if you can handle that sort of thing, you're probably safely within the C standard
19:20:14 <tusho> ais523: Well, I just want to avoid having:
19:20:21 <tusho> int memory[100mb];
19:20:23 <ais523> as long as you can handle all pointer locations within an array, and 1 past the end
19:20:34 <tusho> And instead implement arrays, etc, as real JS arrays
19:20:39 <ais523> tusho: pointers also have to be castable from ints
19:20:47 <tusho> ais523: that's the bit that won't be possible
19:20:56 <tusho> that might be possible
19:20:59 <ais523> because I use hex representations of pointers as function names
19:21:01 <tusho> but it'll just give you the js object id
19:21:12 <ais523> but the unique -> unique mapping is all that's really needed there
19:22:03 <ais523> tusho: are you planning to run the compiler itself server-side or client-side
19:22:12 <ais523> as in, the C-INTERCAL compiler
19:22:22 <tusho> ais523: client side
19:22:26 <ais523> are you planning to just compile its output into JS, or are you planning to write it in JS too?
19:22:38 <tusho> ais523: the C->JS compiler will probably be in Ruby or Js
19:22:53 <tusho> so you should be able to mush up c-intercal's source into one big thing
19:22:56 <ais523> tusho: it'll have to be in JS if you're using it to run C-INTERCAL client-side
19:23:01 <tusho> use it to compile an intercal program
19:23:01 <ais523> because otherwise its output couldn't be recompiled
19:23:06 <tusho> and then copy its output into the c compiler
19:23:13 <tusho> and then, voila, SLOWNESS
19:23:21 <tusho> ais523: does c-intercal ever do (foo*)anint?
19:23:33 <ais523> it messes about with unions
19:23:40 <ais523> but I think I changed them into structs
19:23:46 <tusho> ais523: yeah, that won't work
19:23:49 <tusho> but if it does structs, that should be ok
19:24:01 <tusho> ais523: really, this is just for the novelty of writing stuff for the web in C
19:24:09 <ais523> the union was being used for the intended purpose of unions
19:24:13 <ais523> rather than for type-punning
19:24:22 <tusho> ais523: Unions will just be structs. :-P
19:24:39 <ais523> tusho: well, /that/ violates the C standard
19:24:44 <tusho> ais523: yes it does
19:24:46 <ais523> because sizeof (union) will be wrong
19:24:48 <tusho> but it's practical
19:25:33 <ais523> hmm... what psychological problem do I have if, after refreshing my email in Firefox and finding I don't have any, I try Internet Explorer to see if it can find any more emails
19:25:39 <tusho> void myOnLoad(void *self) { alert("Hello, world!"); } int main(void) { body->onLoad = myOnLoad; }
19:25:41 <ais523> (the same website's being opened up both times, BTW)
19:25:46 <tusho> void myOnLoad(void *self) { alert("Hello, world!"); } int main(void) { body->onLoad = myOnLoad; return 0; }
19:25:59 <tusho> ais523: the "C-INTERCAL developer" problem, as I think I'll call it
19:26:15 <ais523> tusho: the return 0's implied in C99
19:26:36 <tusho> ais523: btw, I found something awful
19:26:45 <tusho> a JS application that is written in JS, but it's preprocessed JS
19:26:53 <tusho> it's processed to add objective-c features
19:26:55 <tusho> http://280slides.com/Editor/1213027183/main.j
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19:27:12 <tusho> http://280slides.com/Editor/1213027183/Document.j scary.
19:27:21 <ais523> especially that .j extension
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19:27:45 <tusho> ais523: it's like objective-c's .m
19:27:58 <ais523> tusho: what does .m stand for, anyway?
19:28:02 <tusho> ais523: I wish I knew
19:28:02 <ais523> as in, as an initialism
19:28:17 <tusho> I bet it's something legacy!
19:28:25 <ais523> but seriously, .j is far too ambiguous to stand for JavaScript
19:28:30 <ais523> it could just as easily stand for Java
19:28:44 <tusho> ais523: I am interested in JS preprocessors though
19:28:49 <tusho> because JS is not unfortunately usable for big things
19:28:53 <tusho> it has potential though
19:28:57 <tusho> it's one of my favourite languages
19:29:11 <ais523> tusho: did you jump to the "not usable for big things" conclusion because of Ecmanomic?
19:29:12 <tusho> ais523: I saw a JS preprocessor that added continuations, once
19:30:08 <tusho> ais523: unfortunately, CPS is gonna be really inefficient with JS
19:30:24 <ais523> tusho: CPS isn't something you write in, it's something you compile into
19:30:42 <ais523> unless you're in a lang which doesn't support function returns for some reason yet supports continuations
19:30:48 <tusho> ais523: inefficient to run in a browser.
19:30:49 <ais523> esolang idea right there!
19:31:02 <ais523> tusho: what I'm saying is why use CPS?
19:31:12 <tusho> ais523: ajax, and similar
19:31:18 <tusho> you have to use callbacks with it in JS
19:31:21 <tusho> which are really ugly
19:31:24 <tusho> you can block the browser
19:31:45 <tusho> uglyShit(..., function(r) {alert(r)})
19:31:54 <ais523> JS callbacks aren't ugly, I find
19:31:57 <tusho> ais523: Anyway. http://neilmix.com/narrativejs/doc/index.html <-- NarrativeJS, which adds an extra operator for continuations [so it's only partially CPS, which is more efficient but a bit ugly]
19:32:09 <tusho> http://chumsley.org/jwacs/ jwacs, which is amusing for being written in lisp
19:32:29 <ais523> tusho: from the name it sounds like someone's tried to compile Emacs into JavaScript
19:32:36 <ais523> now that would be impressive and somewhat worrying
19:32:40 <tusho> Javascript With Advanced Continuation Support
19:33:22 <tusho> ais523: here's what narrative JS does
19:33:30 <tusho> foo->("bar", "baz")
19:33:35 <tusho> that means 'continuation call'
19:33:40 <tusho> stays the same, BUT
19:33:47 <tusho> x(foo->("bar, "baz")); abc;
19:33:59 <tusho> foo("bar", "baz", function (r) {x(r); abc;});
19:34:46 * tusho makes a mockup of a nicer JS object system
19:34:49 <ais523> apply-continuation is perfectly acceptable as an operator, I find
19:34:59 <tusho> ais523: yes, quite
19:35:02 <tusho> unfortunately this won't work:
19:35:03 <ais523> but that's not what -> is doing here
19:35:11 <ais523> if it was applying a continuation it would never return
19:35:27 <tusho> ais523: I was explaining the translation...
19:35:33 <tusho> from js+apply-continuation to js
19:35:41 <ais523> tusho: well, I'm trying to figure out what -> actually
19:35:52 <tusho> Anyway, [[ function blahblah(x) { return blahblah2->(x); } blahblah(x); y ]]
19:35:56 <tusho> since it's function-scoped
19:36:00 <ais523> ah, it's translating function calls into CPS
19:36:02 <tusho> (Obviously, otherwise the whole program would have to be CPS'd)
19:36:24 <tusho> ais523: basically, you can do [[ alert(ajax->("blah")); ]]
19:36:29 <tusho> without having to transform the whole program
19:36:48 <ais523> -> means "allow continuations inside this function call"
19:36:59 <ais523> you'd have to call that function with -> too
19:38:16 <tusho> ais523: hmm, a JS preprocessor is seeming like an even nicer possibility each second
19:38:27 <tusho> because it could lead JS as a good way to write server-side code too
19:38:32 <tusho> on e.g. Spidermonkey
19:38:45 <tusho> JS is so close to being a near-perfect language for client & server-side
19:39:01 <tusho> so using a slightly improved version on both sides, that still takes advantage of existing implementations, is very good
19:39:22 <tusho> ooh, keyword arguments could be done too
19:39:24 <tusho> yes, that'd be nice
19:45:54 <tusho> ais523: ooh, I had an idea for -> functions
19:46:04 <tusho> how about just making every function call an actor thingy
19:46:13 <tusho> and excluding -> is an implicit block until it returns
19:53:26 <tusho> ais523: I think I'll write this -> translator thingy.
19:53:45 <tusho> the rewrite isn't that hard...
19:53:51 <tusho> Any expression involving func->(...)
19:54:05 <tusho> func(..., function (r) { The expression, with the func->(...) replaced with 'r' });
19:54:17 <tusho> Of course, I have to pick an unused name. But apart from that..
19:56:13 <tusho> ais523: Does that look right to you?
19:56:42 <ais523> also, one easy but crazy way to generate unqie names is to make them longer than the original program
19:56:53 <tusho> I think I'll stick to AST analysis.
19:57:19 <tusho> If anyone makes a variable named __ContRes_1
19:58:30 <ais523> tusho: Overload had a nice solution to this
19:58:40 <tusho> ais523: Allow arbitary objects as variable names?
19:58:43 <ais523> system reserves all variable names starting with exactly one underscore
19:58:52 <ais523> more than one underscore is for libraries
19:59:06 <tusho> ais523: You know what, I think I'll just name them __cont_res_1
19:59:13 <tusho> Because if someone names a var that, they WANTED to get at that variable.
20:00:35 <ais523> unless someone else writes a competing continuation library
20:00:46 <ais523> or you try to bootstrap it on itself for some reason
20:00:49 <tusho> I might just use Narrative JS. It is, after all, exactly what I'm describing. :-P
20:01:30 <tusho> ais523: Oh darn. Narrative JS is written in Java.
20:01:50 <tusho> Wait ... No it's not.
20:01:51 <ais523> tusho: that's easy enough to solve, I believe there are Java -> JS compilers floating around somewhere
20:01:52 <tusho> It's written in JS.
20:02:07 <tusho> ais523: No, it's in JS. It just uses the Rhino JS interpreter.
20:02:09 <tusho> Which is written in Java.
20:02:18 <ais523> does it work on other interps too?
20:02:21 <tusho> There is one Java bit.
20:02:24 <ais523> like the ones browsers use?
20:02:35 <tusho> ais523: Don't think so
20:02:41 <tusho> Obviously that'll be done server side anyway
20:03:06 <tusho> ais523: Yeah, it doesn't
20:03:12 <tusho> it uses things like 'java.lang.System.exit(1)'
20:03:19 <tusho> and java's IO stuff
20:03:20 <ais523> pity, browser-based JS interps are at least easy to come by
20:03:41 <tusho> ais523: Besides, this just means I can use Rhino as the server-side JS solution.
20:03:47 <tusho> Which is fortunate, because the Java library is useful.
20:04:00 <tusho> (SpiderMonkey, while blazes faster, lacks in the library department. Because it has none.)
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20:05:24 <tusho> I still need a little thing to make JS coding nicer, though.
20:05:30 <tusho> Ah, I think jQuery has something
20:06:22 <Slereah> Why was the syntax of wiki cyclic tag erased?
20:06:42 -!- ais523 has quit.
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20:09:04 <tusho> Slereah: Go into history.
20:09:08 <tusho> Click the better revision.
20:09:28 <tusho> Put in a summery of 'revert vandalism', too
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20:11:49 <AnMaster> hrrm, why is it that if a unit needs n non-rechargeable batteries, you can only find n-1 batteries?
20:11:52 <AnMaster> In this case n is equal to 4 AA batteries
20:12:20 <Slereah> AnMaster : Because you're poor
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20:13:23 <AnMaster> Slereah, nah I think it's Murphy's first law of batteries
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21:50:09 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/ // jsmips next-generation actually works! :)
21:50:51 <GregorR> As it turns out, all the problems I was having came down to JavaScript's lack of true integers ... overflow an integer when calculating an integer and your results are as expected, overflow a FLOAT while calculating an integer and *boom* massive failure.
21:54:07 <GregorR> A simulator for MIPS in JavaScript.
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21:54:47 <GregorR> Which is to say, a way of running .c programs in your browser, eventually :)
22:20:24 <tusho> GregorR: Inferior to my c2js.
22:21:04 <augur> why would i want to run C in my browser? :P
22:21:19 <GregorR> tusho: WTF, you have a C2JS?
22:21:25 <GregorR> augur: vim in the browser! :P
22:21:28 <tusho> GregorR: Well, I have the design for one.
22:21:35 <tusho> You can't do funky pionter artihmetic but it will be fast.
22:21:37 <augur> gregor, it's not like JS is all that different from C
22:21:39 <GregorR> That's very different from actually HAVING one.
22:21:39 <tusho> GregorR: I.E., no huge heap array
22:21:43 <augur> except, say, pointers
22:21:46 <tusho> it actually uses regualr js objects
22:22:01 <GregorR> My goal is to take C programs that were never intended for running in a browser and running them unmodified.
22:22:10 <tusho> GregorR: Rite, mine can do that too.
22:22:11 <GregorR> That is, it's explicitly NOT to create a new language.
22:22:12 <tusho> Just write 'printf'.
22:22:21 <GregorR> <tusho> You can't do funky pionter artihmetic but it will be fast.
22:22:33 <tusho> GregorR: Well, not many programs do funky pointer arithmetic
22:22:35 <tusho> I mean things like this:
22:22:39 <tusho> int test[3]; test[-15]
22:22:52 <GregorR> Oh, you really do mean /FUNKY/ pointer arithmetic :P
22:22:58 <GregorR> OK, well, I'll believe it when I see it ;)
22:23:05 <tusho> GregorR: BTW, I advise testing jsmips in Firefox 3.
22:23:09 <tusho> It's blazin' fast!
22:23:15 <GregorR> Ohyah, I hadn't gotten around to FF3 yet :)
22:23:24 <tusho> GregorR: The example runs in less than a second.
22:23:28 <tusho> With no lag on startup
22:23:35 <tusho> The page loads quickly, I press start, less than a second goes by and no browser hangup
22:25:10 <tusho> GregorR: I CAN'T WAIT FOR MOLASSOS
22:25:31 <tusho> GregorR: Hmm. If you used twm it could actually work.
22:25:43 <tusho> e.g. write an ultra-optimized <canvas> gfx driver
22:25:53 <tusho> and then make twm extremely stripped down
22:25:58 <tusho> and use rxvt instead of xterm
22:26:01 <GregorR> That's a very future-y consideration ;)
22:26:05 <tusho> and you _might_ be able to get something kind of usable
22:26:19 <tusho> GregorR: Can I halp develop jsmips. :P
22:26:24 <tusho> Even though I don't know anything about MIPS!
22:26:35 <GregorR> You don't need to, the MIPS core is totally done.
22:26:44 <GregorR> (MIPS is a very small architecture)
22:26:44 <tusho> GregorR: It might need teh optimizations.
22:26:53 <tusho> GregorR: Please tell me you have a git repository. :-P
22:27:16 <tusho> GregorR: Better than rodger's - "Uploading a zip file is superior to any VCS!"
22:27:30 <tusho> Set up a push location somewhere or something. :-P
22:27:47 <GregorR> I'll switch to git when it works on Windows *shrugs*. Mind you, I don't use Windows, but I still don't want to use something that limits 95% of desktop users ...
22:28:10 <tusho> GregorR: What portion of people interested in developing jsmips do you think will be using Windows without cygwin? :-P
22:28:17 <GregorR> Unfortunately, it's not publicly accessible right now, but I'll create a new repo on codu.org. Please hold.
22:28:26 * tusho holds the nearest thing.
22:29:31 <tusho> GregorR: WHAT IF I WAS REALLY TALL AND SOMEONE ELSE WAS ON STILTS HUH?
22:29:33 <tusho> STOP ASSUMING THINGS.
22:32:23 <tusho> GregorR: MY IMPATIENCE MANIFESTS IN EATING PEOPLE
22:32:29 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/cgi-bin/hg/hgwebdir.cgi/jsmips/
22:32:44 <tusho> GregorR: But what about push access
22:32:48 <tusho> Do you not love me enough
22:33:08 <GregorR> If you register at http://www.codu.org/cgi-bin/ploftrac.cgi/ I can give you push.
22:33:41 <tusho> GregorR: I registered, but like, with sex appeal.
22:33:47 <tusho> If that makes sense.
22:34:51 <tusho> GregorR: O, and what gcc setup do I need.
22:34:53 <tusho> Cross compile to mips rite
22:35:09 <tusho> YAY. MACPORTS HAS MIPS-ELF-GCC
22:35:14 <tusho> ^__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________^
22:35:39 <tusho> GregorR: So where do I push.
22:35:43 <tusho> IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
22:36:20 <GregorR> OK, you should have push access now. Same URL (sorry, I've been having issues with https - I should be able to fix it soon, but for the moment, http push :( )
22:37:32 <tusho> It's ok. I just love sending my password out in the clear!
22:38:07 <tusho> GregorR: Oh, and can I point you to http://no-www.org?
22:39:26 <tusho> GregorR: What are you trying to say?
22:39:32 <tusho> I am saying that www. is obsolete
22:39:42 <tusho> foo@email.corp.com is silly
22:39:43 <GregorR> Feel free to strip off the 'www.' part :P
22:39:53 <tusho> GregorR: Don't link people to www. then :P
22:40:25 <tusho> also, the people on the xkcd forums fail at british humour and mornington crescent
22:40:43 * GregorR never reads forums associated with web-comics ... or most anything else.
22:41:14 * tusho watches mips-elf-gcc install
22:42:24 <tusho> GregorR: Can I change Gregor Richards to The JSMIPS Project. It's sillier, and more legally correct as soon as I touch a bit. :-P
22:43:02 <GregorR> No, add your own copyright if you make significant changes.
22:43:16 <GregorR> It's not more legally correct unless The JSMIPS Project exists as a legal entity, which it does not.
22:43:34 <tusho> GregorR: It can if you include a file CONTRIBUTORS defining The JSMips Project
22:43:58 <GregorR> OK, I suppose that's true *shrugs* ... but it muddles the question of who owns any given file.
22:44:16 <tusho> GregorR: Why would someone own a given file? Curious :P
22:44:28 <GregorR> There is no logical reason, but the law's the law.
22:44:58 <tusho> GregorR: We should move to #esotericia and make the legal system a nomic.
22:45:04 <tusho> Then we could just fix copyrights by proposal.
22:45:20 <tusho> And declare wars on both Germany and Agora.
22:46:22 <GregorR> So, did you use my patches to make your cross compiler? I just noticed you said mips-ELF-gcc, but actually some changes are needed to the basic mips-elf-gcc configuration >_>
22:46:51 <tusho> GregorR: Shit. No.
22:46:55 <tusho> I just installed MacPorts'
22:47:11 <GregorR> Making your life more difficult since 1986: Gregor Richards!
22:47:22 <tusho> GregorR: SHY DOES IT NEED A PATCH
22:47:26 <GregorR> Unfortunately, mips-elf-gcc's built-in specs file will be wrong with respect to newlib.
22:47:49 <GregorR> Also, so I can #ifdef _JSMIPS :P
22:48:13 <tusho> GregorR: If I give you shell access will you build it for me
22:48:21 * tusho goes and downloads gcc
22:48:39 <GregorR> But do you trust me with shell access? :P
22:48:58 <tusho> GregorR: Pledge in agora not to abuse the privileges.
22:49:11 <tusho> After all, what's more devastating than an Agoran criminal case?!
22:49:41 <GregorR> My pledges are meaningless, I routinely backstab people.
22:49:52 <tusho> GregorR: I said agoran pledge
22:50:08 * GregorR isn't part of Agora, nor does he want to mix himself up in all that :P
22:50:31 <GregorR> (Nor does he know how an agoran pledge is any different from a non-agoran pledge >_> )
22:50:40 <tusho> GregorR: An agoran pledge looks like this:
22:51:13 <tusho> [[I agree to the following: {This is a pledge. This is a private contract. Parties to this contract MUST not abuse SSH privileges on ehird's machine.}]]
22:51:24 <tusho> If and only if I agreed to that contract, I leave it.
22:53:40 <tusho> GregorR: What need patching?
22:53:46 <tusho> I mean, what can I just install normally
22:56:18 <GregorR> Well, you may be able to frankenstein with mips-elf-binutils, but unfortunately, for everything to work properly it needs to have the name "mips-jsmips-..."
22:56:36 <tusho> I just want to know what I have to patch
22:56:43 <tusho> Just the stuff in patches/
22:58:55 <tusho> GregorR: What patch command, again?
22:58:58 <tusho> I can never remember how to use patch
23:00:44 * tusho figures out how to configure binutils
23:00:48 <tusho> ./configure --target=jsmips or someting?
23:01:37 <tusho> --build=BUILD configure for building on BUILD [guessed]
23:01:37 <tusho> --host=HOST cross-compile to build programs to run on HOST [BUILD]
23:01:38 <tusho> --target=TARGET configure for building compilers for TARGET [HOST]
23:03:09 <GregorR> First off, you have to be in a separate build directory
23:03:20 <GregorR> Then ../configure --prefix=<whatever> --target=mips-jsmips
23:07:17 <GregorR> GCC will also need --with-newlib --disable-libssp. binutils and newlib should both work with that.
23:07:31 <tusho> GregorR: So I have to compile newlib before gcc?
23:07:34 <GregorR> Erm, that is, binutils and newlib just need --prefix and --target, GCC also needs --with-newlib --disable-libssp
23:08:08 <GregorR> --with-newlib is a misnomer
23:08:16 <GregorR> It means something more like --without-c-library
23:10:25 <tusho> GregorR: I notice you used the last gpl2 gcc.
23:12:11 <GregorR> Actually, I used the latest no-dependencies GCC.
23:12:20 <GregorR> The fact that it's also the latest GPL2 is a coincidence.
23:34:35 <tusho> GregorR: Burn! I have a core 2 duo and that's good enough for me
23:34:50 <tusho> Also quad core macs are like the most expensive thing on earth
23:35:12 <GregorR> Oh, I just started GCC compiling and then went to grab a soda, and it was done by the time I got back (mind you, not /drink/ a soda, just physically remove it from the refrigerator)
23:35:34 <tusho> GregorR: Meh. I'm not really fussed with this machine's performance. It's miles better than what I had before :P
23:35:56 <tusho> Of course being a mac it cost too much for the specs, but I don't care because I like it.
23:36:18 <GregorR> Got the cross-compiler? (Sorry that making a JSMIPS cross compiler is such a PITA, but there's really nothing I can do about that :( )
23:36:49 <tusho> GregorR: About to compile gcc
23:37:32 <tusho> GregorR: ../configure --prefix=/opt/jsmips --target=mips-jsmips --with-newlib
23:40:22 <GregorR> (libssp will try to compile and fail because there's no libc ... stupid GCC should have a --with-no-libc option that figures that all out)
23:42:35 <tusho> GregorR: I think I will write a ./mkcrosscompile.sh PREFIX
23:44:21 * GregorR is too used to making cross-compilers for his own good ...
23:48:58 <tusho> GregorR: gcc is slowwwwwwww to compile.
23:49:24 <tusho> GregorR: Also, autotools sucks so damn hard.
23:49:40 <tusho> I lol at when warnings show up because there's no way you could catch them with all the drowning output
23:51:31 <tusho> Also stallman is a hobo. :-P
23:51:41 -!- AnMaster has quit ("Away for a few days without internet").
23:53:48 <tusho> GregorR: CHRIST. IT'S SLOW.
23:53:53 <tusho> Does make j=3 work
23:54:21 <GregorR> Although that's not the right syntax ...
23:54:43 <tusho> GregorR: I thought autotools didn't support -j
23:56:11 <tusho> ../../../libiberty/regex.c:51:25: error: sys/types.h: No such file or directory
23:56:14 <tusho> ../../../libiberty/regex.c:158:25: error: strings.h: No such file or directory
23:56:14 <tusho> In file included from ../../../libiberty/../include/xregex.h:26,
23:56:14 <tusho> from ../../../libiberty/regex.c:193:
23:56:18 <tusho> ../../../libiberty/regex.c:196:20: error: ctype.h: No such file or directory
00:01:35 <GregorR> What was your configure line?
00:01:42 <tusho> ../configure --prefix=/opt/jsmips --target=mips-jsmips --with-newlib --disable-libssp
00:01:50 <tusho> and i'm on os x 10.4, x86
00:02:11 <GregorR> It's possible, although a grim and unpopular possibility, that you need to use Apple's GCC sources rather than baseline GCC.
00:02:29 <GregorR> I don't know whether a baseline GCC will compile on Mac OS X even for cross-compiling.
00:03:16 <GregorR> But hm, it shouldn't even be trying to compile libiberty for the target, and on the host I'm sure you have strings.h :P
00:03:18 <tusho> Shit. Where are apple's gcc sources?
00:03:48 <GregorR> Actually, before going down that ugly path, could you pastebin more of the context of those errors?
00:04:38 <tusho> http://rafb.net/p/SQFojI35.html
00:05:34 <tusho> GregorR: I have more context if needed.
00:06:41 <tusho> AWESOME. 3 appeals of CFJ 1966c!
00:06:52 <tusho> GregorR: Any ideas?
00:07:06 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:07:29 <GregorR> It's trying to compile libiberty for the target ...
00:07:36 <GregorR> But there's no reason for it to compile libiberty for the target ...
00:07:46 <tusho> GregorR: Let's venture to #gcc. Together!
00:08:21 <GregorR> (Also a perfect opportunity to subtly "doink" jsmips :P )
00:08:46 <tusho> You state the problem. I've already stated it once.
00:10:22 <tusho> GregorR: TREASURE THIS MOMENT. You can pretend you have a mac.
00:13:13 <tusho> GregorR: And pretend #gcc isn't dead
00:14:06 <tusho> GregorR: So. What should I do now.
00:14:29 <GregorR> Not sure. Get GNU/Linux? :P
00:14:42 <tusho> (Double fail for "GNU/Linux")
00:15:01 <GregorR> Not sure. Get the GNU operating system utilizing the kernel Linux? :P
00:15:24 <tusho> How about "Get Linux"
00:16:27 <GregorR> Not sure. Get GNU? (with whatever kernel you'd like)
00:16:49 <tusho> GregorR: ROLE REVERASL IN #GCC
00:20:51 <GregorR> http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/projects/other/gcc-5483/ // OK, there must be an actual tarball somewhere :P
00:22:28 <GregorR> http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/tarballs/other/gcc-5483.tar.gz
00:22:59 <GregorR> I would try with Apple's GCC *shrugs* ... gross, but possibly necessary.
00:23:44 <tusho> GregorR: What, exactly, is gross about Apple's GCC?
00:24:41 <GregorR> What's gross is that a different GCC would be necessary on a different OS when you're not even targeting that OS.
00:25:46 <tusho> GregorR: OS X is a bit of a weird system
00:26:11 <GregorR> Yeah, to be fair, you need a different GCC on Windows too :P
00:33:49 <GregorR> Did you download gcc-core, or the full gcc?
00:35:17 <GregorR> Try configuring with --enable-languages=c
00:35:21 <tusho> GregorR: Name your patches right, bitch. :P
00:35:37 <GregorR> Well, it'll patch against either, it just doesn't touch anything out of the core.
00:36:08 <GregorR> --enable-languages=c will suppress all the other compilers, so it'll be the same compile as gcc-core.
00:36:52 <GregorR> (Again, I have too much experience writing cross-compilers for my own good, I'm quite used to downloading only the core :P )
00:37:16 <olsner_> *writing* cross-compilers or compiling them? :P
00:37:32 <tusho> olsner_: Wrompiling them.
00:37:36 <GregorR> Fair enough: Too much experience compiling GCC cross compilers.
00:37:49 <tusho> olsner_: Oh, and you know that blohsom I was writing about? Well it turns out Hobix, though written in Ruby, can do it all.
00:37:56 <tusho> And, what's more, I actually got it to work.
00:38:08 <tusho> HobixThatActuallyWorksAndIsMaintained: Coming to a ESO git repository near you!
00:38:14 <olsner_> heh, report a bug "Not writting in Haskell" and see what they do about it :P
00:38:24 <tusho> olsner_: they = _why the lucky stiff
00:38:27 * GregorR wrote a raycaster in Haskell! >_>
00:38:33 <tusho> One of the most prominent members of the ruby community
00:38:36 <tusho> So I wouldn't think much :P
00:38:47 <tusho> Oh, and the website hasn't been updated since 2005.
00:38:59 <tusho> Which is why a hobix that actually works and is maintained is such a wonderful thing for ESO to do!
00:38:59 <olsner_> oh... so maybe it needs rewriting anyway :P
00:39:07 <tusho> olsner_: Nah, hackety.org still uses it.
00:39:13 <tusho> So ... _why still uses it.
00:39:17 <tusho> And it works well. For stuff.
00:39:35 <olsner_> oh, so "_why the lucky stiff" is a person?
00:40:07 <tusho> AKA _why, why the lucky stiff, and most confusingly 'why'
00:40:11 <tusho> also, he has a gui lib named 'Shoes', singular
00:40:19 <tusho> Why just released Shoes, which is a GUI library.
00:40:24 <tusho> http://whytheluckystiff.net/
00:40:41 <tusho> you might have seen Hackety Hack, he made that
00:41:14 <olsner_> I haven't seen much of the Rubites at all (maybe I've been avoiding them)
00:42:34 <tusho> olsner_: Me testing hobix' default install that actually works:
00:42:36 <tusho> http://eso-std.org/~tusho/hobix/
00:42:43 <tusho> http://eso-std.org/~tusho/hobix2/ (With comments. That don't work.)
00:43:39 <tusho> olsner_: YOU GOT ME
00:44:03 <tusho> In #esoteric today: the three people who didn't know that already
00:44:49 <olsner_> I was pretty sure I'd seen tusho and ehird speaking at the same time and acting like different persons
00:45:01 <tusho> olsner_: um.. nope
00:45:17 <tusho> GregorR: GCC BUILT
00:45:40 <tusho> anyway, I assumed my personality was unique enough that there'd be no confusion
00:45:45 <tusho> I'm slightly offended :P
00:46:03 <tusho> GregorR: Link to newlib, I'm a lazy ass.
00:46:12 <GregorR> http://www.google.com/search?q=newlib
00:46:30 <tusho> GregorR: It's more snarky if you use tinyurl to link to justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=newlib.
00:46:55 <augur> tusho you're ehird?
00:46:59 <augur> make that four people.
00:47:08 <tusho> I predicted the third.
00:47:11 -!- ehird has joined.
00:47:24 <tusho> GregorR: You got my real name rong.
00:47:27 <ehird> tusho: WTF, you're still here pretending to be me!
00:47:35 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
00:47:46 <augur> you're just names to me, and if the names dont match, i dont know :(
00:47:54 <tusho> augur: ehird. tusho. ehird. tusho. Repeat.
00:48:06 <augur> like if oklopol didnt alternate to oklofok
00:48:06 <tusho> GregorR: WTF NEWLIB IS 12MB
00:48:25 <tusho> augur: 'ehird' is deprecated, fyi. :P
00:48:40 <augur> how did you pronounce "ehird" btw?
00:48:59 <tusho> For ... Elliott Hird.
00:48:59 <GregorR> tusho: The various per-system stuff is 16MB alone.
00:50:18 <olsner_> at least oklo* usually takes nicks with oklo* ... besides, I'm kind of suspecting the different oklo*'s aren't quite the same person :P
00:50:32 <augur> oh they are olsner
00:50:45 <augur> every _inch_ of them is the same...
00:50:54 <tusho> augur: You would know, you've explored every inch.
00:51:02 <augur> yes, that WAS the implication
00:51:07 <augur> thank you captain obvious
00:51:19 <augur> you werent BEING silly
00:51:23 <tusho> nobody appreciates sarcastic captain obviouses, augur
00:51:30 <tusho> GregorR: OK now how do I shot newlib.
00:51:32 <augur> you're, what, 15? all 15 year olds are silly.
00:52:08 <augur> you cant be THAT young
00:52:12 <tusho> augur: you fail at logreading!
00:52:38 <augur> apparently you fail are remembering the joke we had the other day about you being 15 and pedobear coming to snatch you up :(
00:52:59 <augur> afk eating cake and drinking coffe
00:53:01 <tusho> wait, is this like double sarcasm
00:53:09 <GregorR> tusho: Same config flags as binutils: ../configure --prefix=... --target=mips-jsmips
00:53:10 <olsner_> anyway, changing nicks is evil... you shouldn't expect every other person on irc to link your new nick to your old self *manually* - it's easier for them (us) to just treat you as an entirely new and unknown entity
00:53:24 <augur> i am infinitely recursive sarcasm
00:53:46 * tusho wonders how many levels of sarcasm most people have /me's age wrapped up in
00:53:51 <tusho> GOGOGOGOGOGO 'MAKE'
00:53:53 <GregorR> olsner_: I choose to treat everyone as a completely new and unknown entity, even if I've talked to them a hundred times before.
00:54:19 <olsner_> wise choice, nicks being so very easy to falsify
00:54:22 <GregorR> olsner_: Makes it easier, since I don't have to remember anyone.
00:54:36 <tusho> /bin/sh: line 1: mips-jsmips-cc: command not found
00:54:56 <tusho> GregorR: Wait, what LD environment variables do I have to change for /opt/jsmips/lib
00:55:08 <GregorR> You shouldn't need any ...
00:55:31 <GregorR> Why, what do you have in /opt/jsmips/lib ?
00:55:37 <GregorR> Should just be a couple of .a files.
00:55:53 <GregorR> (And the gcc/ directory, but GCC figures that one out itself)
00:56:06 <tusho> GregorR: Oh, hah, it's trying mips-jsmips-cc
00:56:21 <GregorR> It's probably trying -cc because -gcc wasn't in $PATH when it configured.
00:57:24 <GregorR> Which is a pretty stupid decision, really :P
00:57:29 <tusho> Anyway, for the logs, my age is fib(4+3)+5-4.
00:58:20 <tusho> olsner_: Shut up, I obfuscate everything
00:58:37 <GregorR> Is that a 0-indexed fib() function or a 1-indexed fib() function?
00:59:00 <tusho> GregorR: fib(0)=0, fib(1)=1
00:59:31 <GregorR> tusho: Having more luck with newlib now?
00:59:38 <tusho> It's compiling. Sloooooooooooooowly.
00:59:47 <GregorR> OK, then the pain is probably mostly over :P
00:59:58 <tusho> GregorR: I think JSMIPS is the real pain.
01:00:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
01:00:24 <GregorR> I meant the pain of cross compiling, but sure.
01:00:59 <tusho> GregorR: You know, I think we'll have to hand-code a gui with <canvas>. X11 will just be too slow
01:01:12 <tusho> #include <canvas.h>!
01:01:17 * GregorR is not even remotely considering GUIs yet :P
01:02:07 <tusho> olsner_: sheesh, welcome to like 5 days ago
01:02:10 <tusho> GregorR: how long does newlib take to compile exactly?
01:02:36 <GregorR> Longer than GCC, bizarrely enough.
01:03:07 <olsner_> really!? I thought newlib was supposed to be small?
01:03:15 <tusho> olsner_: so did I..
01:03:23 <tusho> GregorR: I think the first JSMIPS thing I'll do is a JS FFI
01:03:44 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:03:50 <GregorR> That'd be pretty nifty, and not actually too difficult.
01:03:56 <tusho> js_t *js_eval(char *src);
01:04:03 <GregorR> Just make sure you associate it with a syscall # that isn't commonly assigned to a UNIX syscall.
01:04:21 <tusho> js_t *js_prop(js_t *obj, char *name);
01:04:41 <tusho> void *js_to_func(js_t *obj);
01:05:23 <augur> and yet you said you WERENT 14.
01:05:28 <tusho> I corrected myself.
01:05:52 <tusho> GregorR: JSMIPS IS DONE
01:05:53 <oklopol> tusho: did the second boss, continued for some while and missaved to a place where i can only return back to the beginning of the game :D
01:05:55 <augur> im ten years older than you?
01:06:00 <GregorR> tusho: Uh, you mean newlib, right?
01:06:18 * GregorR records this momentous orgy.
01:06:23 <tusho> augur: If you're 22 then you're ten years older than me.
01:06:29 <tusho> If you're something else then you're not. :P
01:06:49 <augur> i have an evaluation model for Reactance
01:07:03 <tusho> Sheesh. You rape me and don't even give it a second thought!
01:07:11 <tusho> GregorR: i686-apple-darwin8-gcc-4.0.1: bin2arr.c: No such file or directory
01:07:11 <tusho> i686-apple-darwin8-gcc-4.0.1: no input files
01:07:18 <augur> tusho: why would i? it's RAPE.
01:07:24 <augur> oklopol: implemented it in JS?
01:07:30 <tusho> augur: BUT IT'S NOT CARING RAPE.
01:07:39 <augur> all rape is not caring rape, tusho.
01:07:42 <oklopol> okay, i'm stopping iwbtg, a game is not worth playing if there's a possibility of having to start over
01:07:45 <GregorR> tusho: I forgot to add that before, hg pull to get it.
01:07:55 <augur> CARING RAPE DOES NOT EXIST.
01:08:26 <augur> ::rapes tusho then kisses him on the forehead::
01:08:33 <augur> oklopol: in JS tho?
01:08:34 * tusho reports to the fbi
01:08:37 <augur> can i see some working code?
01:08:44 <oklopol> augur: i've never coded anything in JS
01:08:58 <augur> whats your implementation in?
01:09:03 <tusho> augur: Python I gues
01:09:21 <tusho> GregorR: Can I make the test program more exciting
01:09:22 <augur> can i _see_ anything or is it just /ostensibly/ implemented
01:09:44 <augur> o its ostensibly implemented :)
01:09:56 <GregorR> tusho: That was just whatever random crap I decided to test with :P
01:10:00 <oklopol> i didn't even see the save button, was a misfire
01:10:13 <augur> i like how tusho knows more about haskell than I do
01:10:33 <GregorR> DAMN WHIPPERSNAPPERS AND THEIR HASKELL
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01:13:37 <tusho> I made the test program all modular. :P
01:14:13 <GregorR> tusho: Doesn't fit in the console though :P
01:14:21 <tusho> GregorR: Nor does your previous example.
01:14:24 <tusho> Can I make it scrollable? :P
01:14:33 <tusho> Or, if not scrollable, bigger.
01:15:05 <GregorR> Bigger, yes, but scrollable would be tricky because I'd eventually like to have full vt100 support.
01:15:31 <GregorR> Anyway, I'm just going to swap the newlines for spaces in the fibo output and push ;)
01:16:22 <tusho> setTimeout(mipses[this.num].run, 0);
01:16:38 <tusho> it dies after hello world
01:16:57 <GregorR> I have no idea why it doesn't, but my current unmodified version does :P
01:17:09 <tusho> GregorR: But it's slower.
01:17:21 <GregorR> I think that the expression is actually reevaluated in the global scope.
01:17:43 <GregorR> That's why I had to make the array of mipses in the first place.
01:17:47 <GregorR> Otherwise you could just do this.run
01:18:17 <tusho> GregorR: Regardless, it eval()s a string and that's really slow for js
01:18:19 <tusho> it'll be our bottleneck
01:18:32 <GregorR> I realize that, but have no solution.
01:18:40 <GregorR> Feel free to invent one, but until you do, don't just break it :P
01:21:18 <tusho> It's so much faster now.
01:21:23 <tusho> [[ var func = function () { func.mips.run(); };
01:21:23 <tusho> setTimeout(func, 0);]]
01:21:31 * tusho eliminates the mips array
01:21:59 <tusho> GregorR: Hm. Where else is mipses used?
01:22:02 <GregorR> Hm, didn't realize that would work, but good to know that it does.
01:22:07 <GregorR> tusho: Pretty much nowhere :P
01:22:13 <tusho> Why did it suddenly stop working then
01:22:21 <GregorR> I need to fix test.head and test.tail.
01:22:32 <augur> tusho why are you doing it that way??
01:22:36 <augur> you can just use closure..
01:22:45 <tusho> They get re-evaluated with self = Window.
01:22:58 <GregorR> Oh, actually: Leave mipses in so the 'Stop MIPS' button can stop all the MIPSes.
01:23:00 <augur> well whatever, i'll trust you :p
01:23:50 <tusho> setTimeout(function () { self.run(); }, 0);
01:24:06 <augur> setTimeout((function(m){ return function(){ m.run(); }; })(this), 0);
01:24:10 <GregorR> OK, fine, just push something X-P
01:24:18 <GregorR> Of course I said that JUST too late X_X
01:24:22 <augur> yay makeshift lets :)
01:24:32 <GregorR> OK, that console is a BIT gigantic ...
01:25:08 <tusho> GregorR: Well, I like it. Shrink if you want to
01:26:37 <GregorR> Whoot. OK, I'm going to fix up test.head and test.tail to work better with the new setup.
01:28:30 <tusho> GregorR: Too bad, I pushed a more awesomer version
01:28:37 <tusho> Besides, we can currently only have one mips
01:28:40 <tusho> So why do we need mipses?
01:28:45 <tusho> We don't, really. Can I remove it?
01:29:09 <GregorR> We can currently only have one mips: Until threads are implemented >: )
01:29:11 <tusho> GregorR: even Start MIPS will only start _one_
01:29:34 <tusho> Also, we should NOT do threads by using multiple VMs...
01:30:15 <GregorR> If you make a new MIPS and point its memory at the previous MIPS' .mem, you get threads with no significant overhead or complication.
01:30:32 <tusho> GregorR: But if you just make MIPS itself handle the threads, it's less ugly.
01:30:36 <tusho> And less memory intensive.
01:30:45 <tusho> That'll be important when we start running real MT apps
01:30:55 <GregorR> I would contest that it's more ugly, less memory intensive, and neither faster nor slower.
01:31:05 <GregorR> Since you'd need to implement a bunch of thread switching code.
01:31:20 <tusho> GregorR: Yes faster, because it's one streamlined operation chain
01:32:15 <GregorR> The only difference is whether we implement context switching in JavaScript or allow the JavaScript interpreter's already-existent context switching for supporting setTimeout do it for us.
01:32:51 <tusho> GregorR: Meh, fine. Don't make jsmips any slower while I sleep.
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04:43:44 <crink> is there brainfuck written in assembler?
04:53:32 <olsner_> probably ... brainfucks abound
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09:34:47 <Deewiant> oklopol: timestamp of the solution to the first one is 2006-04-02 11:22
09:34:54 <Deewiant> but I haven't been doing it much lately
09:35:46 <oklopol> i did some 80 tasks near christmas, and started doing again a few days ago
09:36:11 <oklopol> (actually *during* christmas)
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14:10:04 <Slereah_> That will teach me to order from a bookstore called Quartermelon.
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16:05:46 <ais523> I'm inventing a crazy new version number system for C-INTERCAL
16:05:56 <ais523> because I'm thinking about doing things like betas and release candidates
16:06:01 <ais523> and also want to number repository entries
16:06:21 <ais523> 22.-3.0.29 (alpha in repository, before any betas)
16:06:21 <ais523> 1.-2.0.29 (beta, thus the -2)
16:06:21 <ais523> 1.-1.2.-2.0.29 (repository revision preparing for another beta)
16:06:21 <ais523> 2.-1.0.29 (this means the second release candidate for 0.29)
16:06:21 <ais523> 0.29 (version 0.29 itself)
16:06:22 <ais523> 1.29 (a bugfix for 0.29)
16:06:34 <tusho> ais523: Needs more imaginary numbers
16:06:41 <ais523> tusho: nah, I like it as it is
16:06:45 <ais523> it's simple and easy to understand
16:07:07 <tusho> ais523: no, it's not
16:07:11 <ais523> all I need to do now is figure out how to get darcs to number things like that
16:07:13 <tusho> negative numbers were crazy enough
16:07:18 <ais523> and how to get Debian to do things
16:07:18 <tusho> but imaginary numbers crazier
16:07:23 <tusho> and, you can't make darcs do that
16:07:26 <tusho> darcs just tracks revisions.
16:07:38 <ais523> tusho: it allows pre-commit scripts IIRC
16:07:44 <ais523> they can update the version number for me
16:07:51 <tusho> ais523: that'll be unpredictable
16:08:05 <ais523> not if only one person ever pushes
16:08:13 <ais523> each push would increment the version number
16:08:30 <tusho> ais523: what if you let me push because i'm so awesome
16:08:32 <ais523> anyway, figured out how it works yet?
16:08:46 <tusho> CLC-INTERCAL already uses negs
16:08:47 <ais523> tusho: it's lexicographical right-to-left, numerical within the sections
16:08:50 <ais523> I told you it was easy
16:08:55 <ais523> tusho: yes, but it interprets them in decimal
16:08:55 <tusho> so you should use something else
16:09:05 <tusho> if not imaginary numbers then something else
16:09:06 <ais523> tusho: I'm not just trying to be esoteric
16:09:12 <ais523> this is actually a good version number system
16:09:40 <ais523> how else could you number, for instance, a repository revision intended to eventually become part of the second beta for version 0.29?
16:10:08 <tusho> or, if you wanna be more precise
16:10:12 <tusho> 0.29a<revision number>
16:10:27 <tusho> so, that's a non-esoteric system. If we wanna be esoteric...
16:10:33 <ais523> tusho: no, that doesn't work
16:10:38 <ais523> it needs to become before beta 2
16:10:45 <ais523> in the versioning system
16:11:05 <ais523> so it would be 0.29beta2~pre1 or something silly like that in existing systems
16:11:12 <tusho> ais523: Make version numbers cellular automata.
16:11:28 <ais523> tusho: seriously, though
16:11:29 <tusho> ais523: Each revision = step the cellular automata one step.
16:11:39 <tusho> Do something more fancy for betas, alphas, minors and majors.
16:11:45 <tusho> It would certainly make debian hate you
16:12:01 <ais523> tusho: I'm writing a backwards-compatible C-INTERCAL to Debian version number compiler
16:12:18 <tusho> ais523: Do it with my cellular automata idea.
16:12:22 <SimonRC> I wish I had the motivation to do useful stuff like you do
16:12:26 <tusho> Make the cellular automata description language
16:12:31 <tusho> made up of 0-9, minus, and .
16:12:32 <SimonRC> Well, useful compared to the stuff I do
16:12:41 <tusho> and - can only come before a number and a .
16:12:48 <tusho> and . can't be at the end or the start
16:12:51 <tusho> and . can't come after .
16:13:05 <tusho> That is, things like 3345.-45.2343.-346883.-34.342.4
16:13:15 <ais523> does . or : come first in alphabetical order?
16:13:45 <ais523> now I just have to try to figure out the implications of that...
16:15:40 <tusho> ais523: you don't like my idea.
16:15:43 <tusho> GregorR: You there?
16:15:55 <ais523> I'm actually trying to do something which is almost serious here
16:16:18 <ais523> my system is flexible enough to have release candidates for alphas for betas, if necessary
16:16:33 <ais523> and it can be expressed Debian-style if necessary
16:16:33 <tusho> ais523: you can do that with mine!
16:16:53 <ais523> oh, and by Debian-style I mean also sorting correctly
16:16:56 <tusho> ais523: well, I'm not entirely sure, but I know it's _possible_
16:17:01 <tusho> here's the basic idea to the system
16:17:12 <tusho> - code up some kind of cellular automata thingy
16:17:20 <tusho> - find an initial pattern that grows and shrinks indefinitely
16:17:25 <ais523> I did have to download the source code for dpkg to figure out how its sorting worked, though
16:17:30 <tusho> - write an input language with that format
16:17:41 <tusho> - each 'most minor' release, step it
16:17:45 <tusho> I dunno what to do for more important releases
16:17:52 <tusho> ais523: oh, and because of repeating patterns, prefix it with the year
16:17:58 <tusho> so 2008.3345.-45.2343.-346883.-34.342.4
16:18:05 <tusho> it'd be smaller most of the time
16:18:13 <tusho> 2008.-34.5563.3563.-45861
16:18:17 <ais523> mine gives smaller names to the most important releases
16:18:32 <tusho> ais523: then you could step it until it shrinks N for more important releases
16:18:59 <ais523> also it embeds the C-INTERCAL version number at the end of the Debian version number
16:19:21 <tusho> ais523: I'm pretty sure you can convert mine to dpkg
16:19:26 <tusho> with a bit of magic
16:19:34 <ais523> oh, in theory you can convert anything to dpkg
16:19:36 <tusho> The most stupid solution is to make the debian version the generation number
16:19:40 <ais523> because you can convert anything to my system
16:19:43 <tusho> but there's gotta be better ways
16:19:47 <tusho> But that would work.
16:19:59 <ais523> mine is basically a binary tree
16:20:08 <ais523> expressed in numbers and hyphens and dots
16:20:13 <ais523> so you can insert anywhere into it
16:20:28 <tusho> ais523: Welp, I think my solution is very intercally
16:20:37 <ais523> tusho: then you don't get INTERCAL
16:22:17 <ais523> tusho: you understand how a tree-sort works?
16:22:24 <ais523> my system's a serialisation of that
16:22:40 <ais523> thus making it obvious that you can add a new version number anywhere in the tree
16:22:55 <ais523> and it's pretty elegant too
16:23:17 <ais523> apart from the weird historical right-to-left reading, it's pretty much a perfect version number scheme
16:23:54 <ais523> just imagine how useful it would be for people like Firefox to be able to release a release candidate for 3.0
16:24:00 <ais523> and, say, call it 3.0.-1.1
16:24:11 <ais523> and then have 3.0.-1.2 available for the second release candidate
16:24:38 <ais523> and 3.0.-1.2.-1.130 (or whatever) available for their repository versions that were partially-fixed versions of the second release candidate
16:25:33 <tusho> ais523: I don't think they'd be so enthusiatc
16:26:17 <ais523> but they don't have meaningful version numbers for those at the moment
16:26:32 <ais523> they end up with separate version number schemes for repo versions and released versions
16:30:32 <ais523> incidentally, 1.-1.2.-2.0.29 Debianises to 29:0~8.2~9.1.-1.2.-2.0.29
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16:36:12 * ais523 faces the terrifying prospect of having to do string handling in INTERCAL
16:36:54 <SimonRC> is there a way to pass arrays as arguments?
16:36:57 <ais523> SimonRC: that would involve doing string handling
16:37:09 <ais523> SimonRC: well, you don't pass things as arguments, as such
16:37:15 <ais523> each variable is scoped individually
16:37:25 <ais523> so you pass values in globals and scope them to simulate argument passing
16:37:31 <ais523> that works for arrays just as well as it works for scalars
16:37:53 <SimonRC> I wondered if you could somehow have array references
16:38:06 <SimonRC> so you don't have to copy things into specific arrays all the time
16:38:08 <tusho> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH:[
16:38:09 <tusho> [[Tell me what to use then. Having read as far as to page p. 22 in the K&R, it doesn't mention another way of printing ``".]]
16:38:20 <tusho> We should make a language with 50 ways of printing the empty string
16:38:38 <ais523> tusho: C has an infinite number of ways to print the empty string
16:38:47 <tusho> ais523: No, but I mean, nothing else
16:39:05 <ais523> don't all NOPs print an empty string, anyway?
16:39:20 <tusho> taht's what's so hilarious
16:39:23 <ais523> SimonRC: there aren't exactly references
16:39:25 <tusho> someone posted a program with printf("");
16:39:30 <ais523> but you can have overloaded variables
16:39:31 <tusho> and someone laughed at it and told them why it was stupid
16:39:34 <tusho> and they responded with that
16:39:34 <ais523> that can do a similar thing
16:39:54 <ais523> you can't overload arrays in C-INTERCAL
16:39:59 <ais523> but you can in CLC-INTERCAL
16:40:04 <ais523> it's sort of like symlinking
16:40:20 <ais523> so you can, for instance, do DO .999 <- ",1/,2" SUB #1
16:40:32 <ais523> to give yourself a pretext to evaluate ,1/,2
16:40:40 <ais523> from then on ,1 is an alias to ,2
16:40:50 <ais523> and you can scope the aliases as much as you like
16:41:08 <ais523> the issue, though, is that if someone STASHes ,2, the new value will be referenced by ,1 rather than the old one
16:41:12 <ais523> so you can't reference auto variables
16:41:38 <ais523> the only reason symlinks work is that filesystems don't have scoping rules
16:41:52 <ais523> although scoped filesystems are an interesting idea, now I think about it
16:42:04 <ais523> it would be a greatly improved way to do temporary files
16:42:16 <ais523> and chrooting, for that matter
16:42:53 <SimonRC> It would be nice if there were a proper system call to create anonymous files and directories
16:43:21 <ais523> SimonRC: a scoped method would allow you to create named files and directories that you could see, but no other process could, that vanished when your process ended
16:43:22 <SimonRC> rather than doing a hope-its-atomic open-and-unlink
16:43:37 <ais523> and it wouldn't cause trouble if you picked the same name as another process
16:43:40 <SimonRC> ais523: anonymous directories might work quite well for that
16:43:51 <ais523> SimonRC: yes, they might be one way to implement them
16:44:24 <SimonRC> I fear that Java File objects will interact poorly with anonymous directories and such
16:44:41 <ais523> well, my method would let you name a tempfile anything
16:44:41 <SimonRC> If I recall correctly, they use full paths a lot.
16:44:49 <SimonRC> ais523: why name it at all?
16:44:54 <ais523> you could name it /etc/passwd and your program would still work
16:44:55 <tusho> ais523: so I came up with the craziest JS thing ever.
16:45:04 <SimonRC> ais523: oh, I see what you mean now
16:45:07 <ais523> SimonRC: so you can override a system file's contents like that
16:45:35 <SimonRC> PLan9's union filesystems are a bit like that
16:46:25 <ais523> however, somehow I doubt they ended up inventing symlinks for variables in programming languages
16:46:39 <ais523> but scoped files and symlinked variables are both sensible concepts in some sense
16:46:47 <tusho> ais523: hardcore plan9ers would like to make variables symlinks, probably
16:46:52 <tusho> they like the fs quite a lot :P
16:46:58 <ais523> after all, Macs have references to files
16:47:05 <ais523> in the same way that you can have pointers to variables
16:47:14 <tusho> ais523: macs references to files are, uh, symlinks.
16:47:19 <ais523> tusho: no, as in numbers
16:47:25 <ais523> they aren't in the filesystem
16:47:30 <ais523> they're ints that can be passed from program to program
16:47:37 <tusho> ais523: uh, file descriptors?
16:47:43 <ais523> tusho: the file has to be open to do that
16:47:50 <ais523> I don't think most Unices can manage it
16:47:55 <ais523> but the Mac filesystem is weird
16:47:58 <tusho> sorry, I don't think os x is any different in this area
16:48:02 <tusho> ais523: HFS+ isn't that weird
16:48:14 <ais523> there are 6 different ways of representing a file IIRC
16:48:30 <ais523> it corresponds sort of to passing around inode numbers in a typical Unix program
16:49:35 <ais523> hmm... does any programming language have permissions on variables?
16:49:52 <ais523> I suppose OO languages have private/protected/public, but it's not quite the same
16:50:10 <ais523> arguably some languages have things like character special variables
16:50:10 <tusho> ais523: you know, I really dislike filesystems
16:50:19 <tusho> because I don't think heirarchically.
16:50:23 <ais523> tusho: what would you use instead?
16:50:34 <ais523> although I think a multidimensional filesystem would be good
16:50:39 <ais523> it would be based on tagging, I think
16:50:41 <tusho> ais523: Something tagged. Multidimensional sounds nice.
16:50:44 <ais523> but tags could themselves be tagged
16:50:50 <tusho> that sounds very good
16:50:51 <ais523> so you could do hierarchies if necessary
16:50:56 <tusho> ais523: and, then, files are just tags
16:51:09 <tusho> turtle solutions are always nicer, I feel
16:51:19 <ais523> /etc/passwd would mean "a file tagged with (passwd tagged with an untagged etc)"
16:51:25 <tusho> ais523: kind of, yeah
16:51:27 <tusho> except it would be
16:51:35 <ais523> that way it's backwards-compatible to real filesystems
16:51:48 <tusho> a tag tagged with [the tag passwd tagged with [the tag etc tagged with []]]
16:51:48 <ais523> the difference would be that instead of, say, /home/ais523
16:51:58 <ais523> you could have /home&/ais523
16:51:58 <tusho> ais523: it would be /user/ais523
16:52:09 <tusho> a tag ais523 tagged with [the tag user tagged with []]
16:52:15 <tusho> ais523: and look, users are just tags!
16:52:21 <tusho> gosh, that's so elegant.
16:52:23 <ais523> tusho: I'd take that as corresponding to the user ais523
16:52:29 <tusho> users can just be tags!
16:52:39 <tusho> also, with my idea, files could have subfiles
16:52:42 <ais523> whereas /user/ais523&/home would be the same as /home&/user/ais523
16:52:44 <tusho> SimonRC: of course you do. I don't see that as a bad thing
16:52:51 <tusho> ais523: I don't really like that idea
16:52:53 <tusho> why seperate the concepts
16:52:56 <SimonRC> and there are fewer safeguards against things having duplicate names or no names
16:52:57 <ais523> now I need some way to get /home/ais523 and /user/ais523/home to map to those
16:53:02 <tusho> mine lets you make EVERYTHING a tag
16:53:02 <ais523> tusho: the & just means 'tagged with both''
16:53:14 <ais523> but this is the multidimensionality I'm talking about
16:53:18 <tusho> ais523: I don't see why /user/ais523 is not perfect
16:53:24 <ais523> tusho: that's the user itself
16:53:27 <tusho> /user/ais523/passwd
16:53:28 <ais523> not eir home directory
16:53:31 <tusho> /user/ais523/code/c-intercal/
16:53:35 <tusho> what's wrong with that?
16:53:56 <SimonRC> how does one divide up space between things and programs?
16:53:56 <tusho> ais523: wait, how about this:
16:53:57 <ais523> because, say, /user/ais523/group might be "www-data"
16:54:20 <ais523> SimonRC: presumably, programs would be tagged with /bin
16:54:20 <SimonRC> you might have 1000 packages installed; what stops them colliding?
16:54:33 <tusho> /user/ais523/[code,c-intercal]
16:54:36 <ais523> SimonRC: well, /bin/pager might be ambiguous
16:54:42 <tusho> /[user,home]/ais523/[code,c-intercal]
16:54:49 <tusho> ais523: really, we need tags to be predicates with arguments
16:54:56 <ais523> but /bin/pager&/less would be unambiguous, as would /bin/pager&/more
16:55:00 <tusho> and a nice way to do composition
16:55:11 <ais523> well, /package/less and /package/more, probably
16:55:15 <tusho> ais523: user.home/ais523/code.c-intercal
16:55:28 <SimonRC> ah, I see where you are coming from
16:55:30 <tusho> ais523: oh, and file extensions would be gone
16:55:37 <tusho> because they're just tags
16:55:41 <ais523> tusho's . is the same as my &, I think, just with a different precedence
16:55:52 <ais523> so having both would be simple enough
16:55:59 <SimonRC> I would like a bit of heirarchy though still...
16:56:01 <tusho> /user.home/ais523/documents/test
16:56:03 <tusho> /user.home/ais523/documents.pdf/test
16:56:05 <tusho> /user.home/ais523/documents.txt/test
16:56:10 <tusho> hey look, it's MultiViews :P
16:56:13 <SimonRC> some tags only make sense if certain other tags are applied
16:56:21 <ais523> SimonRC: that's why tags can be tagged themself
16:56:23 <tusho> SimonRC: have dependent tags then
16:56:27 <ais523> that's what the / does
16:56:32 <ais523> so it looks like a normal system
16:56:42 <SimonRC> so you have a heirarchy of tags?
16:56:58 <tusho> you have a folksonomy of tags
16:57:00 <ais523> except... not exactly a hierarchy
16:57:07 <ais523> and I don't know what folksonomy means
16:57:18 <tusho> ais523: you have 'a heirarchy of tags' as much as you have 'a heirarchy of files'
16:57:24 <tusho> you don't, because they're tagged
16:57:30 <tusho> not heirarchically sorted
16:57:45 <ais523> yes, well it isn't a hierarchy because, say, */documents makes sense
16:57:52 <ais523> that means "things tagged with documents"
16:58:01 <ais523> without specifying anything about what documents is tagged with
16:58:47 <ais523> tusho: are you sure about that /user.home/ thing?
16:58:59 <ais523> I would have thought it would be (/home./user/ais523)/documents/test
16:59:15 <ais523> because the document is in the home section, and belongs to user ais523
16:59:32 <ais523> ah, but some tags are transitive
16:59:39 <ais523> it's not right to have all tags transitive, though
16:59:53 <ais523> but, for instance, if a tag is tagged /user/ais523, so should the thing it tags
17:00:02 <ais523> hmm... no, that's wrong too
17:00:20 <SimonRC> Well, I started off feeling that the whole system had feet of clay, but that feeling is going away.
17:00:59 <SimonRC> datestamps would be tags too?
17:01:14 <ais523> it would be great if there could be tags like "yesterday" too
17:01:20 <ais523> which are automanaged by the system
17:01:26 <SimonRC> you would definitely need an equivalent to the pwd
17:01:40 <ais523> SimonRC: well, my idea is you'd have a 'working tag'
17:01:48 <ais523> that's automatically prepended to any tag specification you use
17:02:07 <tusho> ais523: tags like yesterday - just add algorithmic tags
17:02:15 <tusho> [now the FS is undecidable, but who cares?]
17:02:41 <ais523> tusho: algorithmic tags could probably be inefficient, though
17:02:46 <SimonRC> some tags "change faster" than others, but only typicaly so
17:02:47 <ais523> for practical use I'd recommend special-casing them
17:03:14 <SimonRC> for example, the tag specifying the current user will change very rarely
17:03:38 <tusho> ais523: remember that everything is a tag
17:03:40 <ais523> tusho: I think we need 3 precedences for the . operator
17:03:43 <tusho> I mean _everything_
17:03:53 <tusho> ais523: that is, the whole system is the kernel + tags
17:04:04 <tusho> it's like microkernels, but to the incomprehensible extreme
17:04:12 <SimonRC> there is something else you lose...
17:04:18 <ais523> tusho: what I mean, is, created/20080615 is a tag
17:04:26 <ais523> to store in a system somewhere
17:04:32 <SimonRC> given a set of tags, it is hard to tell if it identifies a unique file or not
17:04:32 <ais523> but yesterday shouldn't be stored
17:04:36 <tusho> created/2008/06/15
17:04:40 <tusho> or more specifically
17:04:41 <tusho> created/2008/06/15/*
17:04:45 <tusho> since seconds etc will be tracked too
17:04:48 <ais523> SimonRC: that isn't much of a problem
17:04:52 <tusho> (created/2008/*)/*
17:04:57 <tusho> will get you all tags created 2008
17:04:59 <ais523> you could always write inode/100 if you needed to specify a file definitely
17:05:01 <SimonRC> and adding a file might change an unambiguous tag into an ambiguous one
17:05:04 <tusho> ais523: good or what.
17:05:15 <ais523> SimonRC: yes, but that's deliberate
17:05:18 <tusho> / is a bit of a jarring character though
17:05:25 <tusho> (created,2008,*),*
17:05:29 <ais523> tusho: / means tagged with
17:05:29 <tusho> meh .. don't like that
17:05:35 <ais523> and we need three ways to do 'and'
17:05:36 <tusho> it's a bit jarring
17:05:38 <tusho> considering how common it is
17:05:42 <tusho> we just need parens
17:05:47 <ais523> yes, but for simple use
17:06:00 <tusho> (created*2008*?)*?
17:06:06 <ais523> say we have low-precedence &, high-precedence . and onesided-precedence ,
17:06:06 <tusho> (created#2008#*)#*
17:06:19 <ais523> then it's /user/ais523,home/documents,pdf/test
17:06:22 <tusho> ais523: I prefer , over all of them
17:06:27 <ais523> if a little hard to understand
17:06:27 <tusho> so let's just have ,
17:06:38 <ais523> also, , is the most useful of them
17:06:54 <SimonRC> ah, so we are still keeping inodes or equivalent?
17:06:56 <ais523> a/b,c/d is ((a/b),c)/d
17:07:04 <tusho> (/created/2008/*)/user/ais523,home/documents,pdf/*
17:07:05 <ais523> SimonRC: they'd be a physical thing
17:07:11 <tusho> all pdf documents in ais523's home created in 2008
17:07:27 <ais523> tusho: no, that's wrong
17:07:37 <SimonRC> if two files end up with exactly the same set of tags, how do you distinguish them?
17:07:38 <tusho> /created/2008/*,/user/ais523,home/documents,pdf/*
17:07:40 <ais523> /created/2008/*&/user/ais523,home/documents,pdf/*
17:07:42 <tusho> SimonRC: they couldn't
17:07:48 <tusho> since tags would include their inode and similar
17:07:59 <ais523> it's just a case of operator precedence
17:08:13 <tusho> (/created/2008/*),/user/ais523,home/documents,pdf/*
17:08:21 <tusho> don't need &, really
17:08:22 <ais523> yes, that's also correct
17:08:23 <SimonRC> this gun can be pointed at whole new feet, it seems
17:08:25 <tusho> it's too uncommon, ais523
17:08:53 <ais523> wait, no, you've put the parens on the wrong side of ,
17:09:08 <tusho> ok, we need one more operator then
17:09:17 <ais523> /created/2008/*,(/user/ais523,home/documents,pdf)/*
17:09:21 <tusho> /created/2008/*$/user/ais523,home/documents,pdf/*
17:09:24 <ais523> tusho: that's what I was using & for
17:09:39 <ais523> hmm... does the , include an implied /
17:09:51 <ais523> or do we make tagged "home" the same as untagged "home"
17:09:57 <ais523> your way's more elegant
17:10:04 <tusho> ais523: i do believe that saying: 'home' tagged with anything
17:10:06 <tusho> doesn't make much sense
17:10:07 <ais523> but incapable of emulating a standard UNIX filesystem
17:10:12 <tusho> since a load of those 'home's will mean nothing
17:10:18 <ais523> tusho: as in, what if I want a dir called "home"?
17:10:20 <tusho> and I don't think we should think about backwards compatibility
17:10:23 <tusho> ais523: directories don't exist
17:10:32 <ais523> well, I'm thinking of backward compatibility
17:10:41 <tusho> this is too strange to
17:10:55 <tusho> /created/2008/*&/user/ais523,home/documents,pdf/*
17:11:16 <ais523> where documents is a tag I've defined myself, in that example
17:11:26 <tusho> ais523: you don't define tags
17:11:36 <tusho> and they automagically exist
17:11:42 <ais523> I mean that that means "documents with ais523's interpretation"
17:12:10 <tusho> ais523: presumably, you'd make /user/ais523,home/documents tagged with /documents
17:12:16 <tusho> (or /data/documents, whatever the OS calls them)
17:12:52 <tusho> ais523: am I the only one who desperately wants to use a system where _EVERYTHING_ is this tag system, like, right now?
17:12:54 <ais523> so it could also be written /created/2008/*&/user/ais523,documents,pdf/*
17:13:08 <tusho> why has nobody thought of this before?
17:13:14 <tusho> i've heard of non-heirarchical FS'
17:13:16 <tusho> but not to this degree
17:13:19 <ais523> probably someone has but hasn't been bothered to implement it
17:13:22 <tusho> and not one that leaves the idea of an FS behiind
17:13:25 <tusho> and makes EVERYTHING in the tag system
17:14:01 <ais523> well, mine would be backwards-compatible too
17:14:09 <ais523> so systems that only knew about FSs would still work
17:14:29 <ais523> sort of the same way that DOS programs which only understand short filenames nevertheless run on 32-bit Windows
17:14:48 <tusho> ais523: if EVERYTHING is in the tag system, you can kiss native compatibility goodbye
17:14:53 <tusho> you can build an emulation layer
17:15:00 <tusho> but this is only truly amazing if it's unique
17:15:22 <ais523> well, the emulation layer could just use my translations
17:15:34 <ais523> and prefix underscores to filenames or something like that if there are clashes
17:15:39 <tusho> ais523: anyway, it occurs to me that file lookups are TC
17:15:42 <ais523> but nevertheless everything will be a tag
17:15:50 <ais523> tusho: really? I can't think of a way to do a loop
17:16:04 <tusho> ais523: no, but there'll be some tag somewhere a long the line that lets you
17:16:05 <ais523> they're boolean search operations
17:16:16 <tusho> if processes, and EVERYTHING are tags
17:16:28 <ais523> well, * and symlinks allow loops as it is
17:16:39 <ais523> and what would be done here wouldn't even be symlinks, or even hardlinks
17:16:46 <ais523> where two things are the same things
17:16:49 <ais523> but written different ways
17:18:22 <ais523> oh dear, this is starting to remind me of Feather again
17:18:52 <ais523> tusho: here's a good reason for , to imply /:
17:19:00 <ais523> you could have a versioned tagsystem
17:19:19 <ais523> where, say, if a 'file' was deleted, it would no longer be accessible except by using versioning tags
17:19:35 <ais523> but you could still find it using wildcard prefixes
17:20:24 <tusho> it removes too much flexibility
17:20:27 <tusho> things become hideously verbose
17:20:37 <tusho> ais523: write your pdf thing with it
17:20:44 <tusho> PDFs in your documents tag in your home created 2008
17:20:47 <ais523> tusho: it looks the same
17:20:53 <ais523> because I was considering pdf to be a global tag
17:21:00 <tusho> ais523: but the 'documents' tag was local
17:21:05 <SimonRC> what would be a good way to copy a file?
17:21:09 <ais523> , has one-sided scoping
17:21:31 <ais523> because you want to factor in lots of global tags
17:21:37 <ais523> your meaning, you just change the last , to .
17:21:44 <ais523> and then it's ais523's pdf tag
17:22:03 <ais523> well, say I've defined documents and pdf tags
17:22:29 <ais523> then it would be /user/ais523/documents.pdf/*
17:22:43 <ais523> whereas /user/ais523/documents,pdf/* uses the global pdf tag
17:23:10 <ais523> and /user/ais523/documents&pdf/* selects either my documents tag, or any PDF file
17:23:14 <ais523> so the last isn't particularly usful
17:23:20 <tusho> ais523: it should be ,.pdf
17:23:37 <ais523> but with an abbreviation
17:23:39 <tusho> basically, I don't like , implying /
17:23:44 <tusho> it just seems inelegant
17:23:47 <ais523> ,mimetype/application/pdf
17:24:05 <ais523> tusho: well, use . then
17:24:10 <ais523> I invented , as shorthand
17:24:20 <ais523> because it'll come up so often
17:24:57 <ais523> it's shorthand for add ( at the start of the string and replace the , with )./
17:25:04 <ais523> it's just that comes up a lot
17:25:23 <ais523> anyway, at this rate it's probably best for us both to invent things in our own systems
17:25:36 <ais523> and see which one looks better
17:25:38 <tusho> ais523: nah, they're close enough
17:25:46 <ais523> incidentally, permissions could be done like this too
17:25:52 <tusho> so just let , not imply it
17:25:54 <tusho> and get more elegance
17:26:06 <ais523> tusho: , is a typing aid
17:26:11 <tusho> ais523: yes, but it's a terrible one
17:26:11 <ais523> so use it for what it's usually used for
17:26:15 <tusho> it's not a useful one
17:26:21 <tusho> and it impacts the elegance of the system
17:27:31 <ais523> tusho: let me come up with some paths in my system to see how much I use the three operators
17:28:45 <tusho> isn't /* superflouous?
17:28:52 <tusho> /user/ais523,home/documents == /user/ais523,home/documents/*
17:28:55 <ais523> /user/ais523/esoteric/intercal,home.(/apps/darcs/repos)
17:29:06 <ais523> the first is the tag itself
17:29:09 <ais523> the second is all things tagged with ti
17:29:19 <tusho> ais523: a tag is defined by its tags, and the tags tagged with it
17:29:30 <tusho> therefore, I'd say /* is wrong
17:29:36 <ais523> well, you normally need to distinugish between a directory and the files in it
17:29:46 <tusho> ais523: but let's pretend you don't
17:29:48 <ais523> e.g. suppose I want to tag a file with /user/ais523/mynewtag
17:29:58 <ais523> that's different from tagging a file with all tags tagged by /user/ais523/mynewtag
17:30:05 <ais523> i.e. tagging it with /user/ais523/mynewtag/*
17:30:10 <tusho> /created/2008&/user/ais523,home/documents
17:30:19 <tusho> so much more elegant without the /*s
17:30:34 <ais523> tusho: that's just a scoping problem
17:30:59 <ais523> actually, what does the 'home' tag even mean?
17:31:04 <ais523> it should mean 'stored on the home partition'
17:31:12 <tusho> ais523: don't think about low level details like that
17:31:18 <ais523> no, I mean semantically
17:31:29 <ais523> it means back this up preferentially over other things
17:31:33 <tusho> ais523: it means a user's home
17:31:40 <ais523> tusho: that concept doesn't exist now
17:31:46 <tusho> ais523: yes it does
17:31:55 <tusho> the home tag is how you differenciate a user from their file storage
17:31:57 <ais523> well, is what important the fact that it's in my home
17:32:05 <ais523> or that it's mine, and it's home?
17:32:16 <ais523> say we're working on something together
17:32:25 <ais523> wouldn't it be great to tag it with something like /user/ais523.ehird/ESO
17:32:35 <tusho> that'd go in /projects
17:32:44 <ais523> as in, things that we both tag with that
17:32:45 <tusho> and projects beloning to ais523 would be tagged /user/ais523
17:32:54 <ais523> <tusho> that'd go in /projects
17:32:56 <tusho> and projects beloning to everyone in the group ESO would be tagged /group/ESO/*
17:33:08 <ais523> it goes in /projects AND /user/ais523 AND /user/ehird
17:33:14 <ais523> but it should also go in /home
17:33:23 <ais523> because of the semantics that has for backup, etc
17:33:27 <tusho> i think we've reached the flaws of this system
17:33:40 <ais523> I'm beginning to think that /user/ais523/tag should mean "tag as defined by /user/ais523"
17:33:58 <ais523> however, your meaning of home is probably a good one to prevent problems
17:34:02 <ais523> except I think it should be called tags
17:34:09 <ais523> as in, things I define
17:34:12 <ais523> rather than things that tag me
17:34:15 <tusho> ais523: heh, I think we're kind of reaching a mental block
17:34:19 <tusho> there's this huge unifying thing in front of us
17:34:21 <tusho> that makes everything elegant and fitting
17:34:29 <tusho> because our minds are so stubborn, like all humans' minds
17:34:33 <tusho> and the fact that paths superficially look similar
17:34:37 <tusho> our minds are blocking it out
17:34:54 <ais523> no, I don't think that's what it is
17:35:05 <tusho> ais523: really? Because whenever I reach one of them stuff like this always happens
17:35:16 <ais523> I sort of get how this new system works
17:35:23 <ais523> I'm just having problems trying to figure out how it's organised
17:35:55 <ais523> the issue is, I think, distinguishing between a tag as an object (something you can do things with) and a tag as a subject (i.e. it tags things)
17:35:56 <tusho> ais523: maybe a slight break will help
17:36:04 <tusho> because I just figured out a crazily silly javascript workflow
17:39:23 <tusho> ais523: interested?
17:39:38 <ais523> depending on what it is
17:40:03 <tusho> ais523: http://ecmascript4.com/ <-- a python program that converts most of the stable parts of ECMAScript 4 to regular browser-accepting JS
17:40:08 <tusho> now, the crazy idea is
17:40:15 <tusho> set up a workflow that automatically compiles them (obviously)
17:40:21 <tusho> now, write the serverside using Rhino
17:40:27 <tusho> which is mozilla's java implementation of JS
17:40:33 <tusho> you can do this because it can interface with java libs
17:40:44 <tusho> so write ecmascript4 that uses rhino to interface a java webserver, etc
17:40:52 <tusho> then, write the clientside in ecmascript4 too
17:41:03 <tusho> have a 'common' part which contains ecmascript4 for client and server side
17:41:05 <tusho> all automatically compiled
17:41:50 <ais523> the way things are going, you're going to end up combining clientside and serverside somehow
17:41:52 <ais523> which gives me an idea
17:42:01 <ais523> a website that doesn't run on a server at all
17:42:12 <ais523> everything is entirely client-side
17:42:18 <tusho> oh so many times before
17:42:22 <ais523> whenever a new client visits it, they actually get the information from the other clients
17:42:29 <ais523> and there's no server involved
17:42:35 <ais523> just the information flying backwards and forwards
17:42:46 <ais523> if ever nobody's visiting the website, it simply ceases to exist
17:42:53 <tusho> ais523: you can't do p2p communication with JS
17:43:02 <ais523> tusho: no, you'd have to use Java
17:43:12 <tusho> if anything, Flash, please ;)
17:43:15 <tusho> at least flash is stable
17:43:24 <tusho> also, make it a 1x1 px flash that is off the screen
17:43:29 <tusho> and just make it interface with JS (it can do that)
17:43:29 <ais523> tusho: well, personally I'd say "anything but Silverlight"
17:43:40 <ais523> Java's security model is much better than Flash's, though
17:43:46 <tusho> I got my idea after seeing http://280slides.com/Editor/ runs on 'Objective-J'
17:43:46 <ais523> which is why I have Java but not Flash installed
17:43:48 <tusho> which I told you about
17:44:03 <tusho> which is, essentially, JS with Objective-C class & method sending syntax
17:44:10 <tusho> and some functions & constants like objective-c
17:44:17 <tusho> it's very very crazy
17:44:19 <tusho> and perhaps not that logical
17:44:21 <tusho> but I can actually understand it
17:45:09 <tusho> 'cause http://280slides.com/Editor/1213027183/Document.j doesn't actually look all that bat
17:45:19 <tusho> ais523: but then I thought, wait a minute, ecmascript4 has all of this
17:45:29 <tusho> nice classes, strong typing, good error handling, all of that
17:45:35 <tusho> and I came up with my Evil Idea.
17:45:38 <ais523> yes, the first thing I noticed was that it was typed
17:45:48 <tusho> ais523: optionally, though
17:46:12 <tusho> ais523: select the Structural types example
17:46:22 <ais523> I'm slightly disappointed that it has classes, though
17:46:27 <tusho> it has parametized types, like Java, too, check that example
17:46:31 <tusho> ais523: yes, I prefer prototype inheritance
17:46:35 <tusho> it looks really nice
17:46:36 <ais523> but I suppose it would have been too much to ask for them to use the IO or Self method
17:46:54 <tusho> also, check out hte Typed higher-order functions thing
17:46:56 <ais523> well, let me try opening it in FF
17:47:00 <tusho> it's scary but it looks like C# :-P
17:47:05 <ais523> the examples dropdown doesn't work in Konqueror
17:47:08 <tusho> oh, it has namespaces too
17:47:19 <tusho> (that is var test : (String|int|double) = "test";)
17:47:34 <tusho> ais523: and nullable types, whereby you can specify with a type what can contain a null and what not
17:47:39 <tusho> (i.e. Java I'm Looking At You)
17:47:52 <tusho> it has a typed browser api, too
17:48:07 <ais523> tusho: that's the same for all browsers?
17:48:20 <tusho> ais523: It's just the w3c dom.
17:48:25 <tusho> Which everything but IE4 supports, really.
17:49:01 <tusho> ais523: don't use document.all.
17:49:16 <tusho> IE supports the regular dom too, you know
17:49:20 <ais523> and I translated my old programs from it
17:49:32 <ais523> tusho: it's what Microsoft teach, in the hope that people will end up writing IE-only programs
17:49:51 <ais523> anyway I learnt the DOM originally by writing reflective JS programs to look at it
17:49:59 <tusho> ais523: *used to teach
17:49:59 <ais523> nowadays I generally use the Mozilla docs, which are pretty good
17:50:07 <ais523> tusho: they've fixed that?
17:50:15 <tusho> ais523: they're getting better
17:50:24 <tusho> the IE team aren't evil, from what I've read of their blog
17:50:25 <ais523> I think they're confused
17:50:27 <tusho> just a bit misguided sometimes
17:50:32 <ais523> most of the employees aren't evil
17:50:32 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
17:50:33 <tusho> and, yes a bit confused
17:50:45 <tusho> i think they just need some time to catch up
17:50:53 <tusho> they're a bit slow, though, admittedly
17:51:00 <ais523> I think the company itself may have become sentient
17:51:07 <ais523> and is doing evil things against the wishes of its employees
17:51:22 * SimonRC points ais523 at the Ubersoft comic
17:51:22 <tusho> ais523: LOL! Oh lord this ecmascript 4 compiler sucks hard
17:51:27 <tusho> [[It is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0
17:51:27 <ais523> after all, its management structure is sufficiently complicated that I wouldn't be surprised if it was TC
17:51:27 <tusho> <http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/>
17:51:27 <tusho> which basically means you can use it freely for non-commercial purposes.]]
17:51:34 <tusho> Creative Commons almost = FAIL by itself
17:51:39 <tusho> but creative commons NONCOMMERCIAL?
17:51:58 <ais523> for a moment I was wondering why you were so agitated
17:52:03 <tusho> ais523: CC's NC licenses aren't even OSI or DFSG or anything
17:52:21 <ais523> but more to the point, they don't take into account the fact that code can be compiled
17:52:22 <tusho> ais523: oh and the translator doesn't even include the source
17:52:27 <tusho> it's a load of *.pyc files
17:52:42 <ais523> CC-by-sa can almost survive for interpreted languages
17:52:50 <ais523> but for compiled languages it just fails
17:53:28 <tusho> [[(Sorry for the parentheses, haven't figured out how to enter HTML in blogger)]]
17:53:33 <tusho> they don't even know html entities..
17:54:55 <SimonRC> (I justify my company's work by saying that we're a service company, not a product company)
17:55:06 <tusho> ais523: May I humbly suggest using § instead?
17:55:08 <tusho> It's more elegant.
17:55:09 <ais523> SimonRC: what does your company do?
17:55:16 <ais523> tusho: it's harder to type
17:55:22 <tusho> ais523: no it's not
17:55:30 <ais523> tusho: what sort of keyboard are you using?
17:55:44 <ais523> ` is on my keyboard, without even pressing modifier keys
17:55:53 <tusho> ais523: we get all the funnest modifier keys on alt, you see.
17:56:07 <tusho> -ø,˚,¯˝ð•ª¥œª´•¶º•˚ª•‚—·°̄·° ̑̆̂̄°‡‡‡̋̂̆̀
17:56:16 <ais523> and alt-5 switches to the fifth tab in most programs running on Ubuntu
17:56:29 <ais523> they mess with the keyboard shortcuts if they don't follow the Ubuntu standard
17:56:34 <SimonRC> we make stuff that processes tax forms
17:56:40 <ais523> as do Debian with their keyboard standards
17:56:47 <ais523> notably the backspace/delete thing in Emacs
17:58:01 <SimonRC> writing Java that takes in Excel spreadsheets and produces xml that it uses to modify xml that specifies how another java program should produce some more xml that processes xml
17:58:31 <ais523> SimonRC: that sounds like you should submit it to thedailywtf
17:59:07 <SimonRC> apart from the coice of technologies
17:59:11 * ais523 remembers finding that OpenOffice's scripting language was so awful that I just went and parsed .ods with a Perl program I wrote myself instead
17:59:35 <ais523> I like OpenDocument format, because I managed to figure out how it worked even without docs, just from the content of the file itself
18:00:07 <ais523> tusho: is it worth trying to decompile their code?
18:00:15 <tusho> python's thing is a stack machine
18:00:21 <tusho> so you won't get much useful
18:00:27 <ais523> decompiled Java tends to be very useful
18:00:32 <tusho> ais523: so since ECMAScript 4 is out of the question, what other language should I hybridise :P
18:00:49 <tusho> ais523: objective-c is basically c+smalltalk
18:00:50 * ais523 imagines a Smalltalk to JS compiler
18:00:55 <tusho> so objective-j is basically js+smalltalk
18:00:57 * SimonRC goes away for breakfast and radio 7.
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18:01:33 <ais523> tusho: either that, or just wait for a Feather interp with the required features to spontaneously pop into existence
18:01:47 <ais523> however, that's ridiculously unlikely, which is why bootstraps are generally needed
18:01:52 <tusho> that would work really well
18:01:58 <tusho> since you could share interps you make with it
18:02:01 <ais523> tusho: actually, if you can do continuations easily, it would work well
18:02:08 <tusho> continuation passing style
18:02:11 <ais523> JS has all the other features needed
18:02:21 <tusho> ais523: i have a new project: JS -> CPS JS
18:02:33 <ais523> I was thinking about a lambda + call/cc interp in C
18:02:36 <tusho> it'll be part of Feathejs
18:02:43 <tusho> (Feathers? Feathejs? Get it?)
18:02:44 <ais523> whose only purpose was to optimise for the operations Feather did
18:02:52 <tusho> JS will be more fun
18:02:57 <tusho> anyway, i'll go make a feathejs.git
18:02:59 <ais523> tusho: I'm thinking about computational order here
18:03:17 <tusho> ais523: the good thing about feather in JS is that it'll be totally detached from traditional consoles
18:03:24 <tusho> since it'll be the dom
18:03:36 <ais523> the major unusual operation in Feather is giving an argument to a continuation which is almost identical to what the call/cc returned in the first place
18:04:06 <ais523> that can be optimised to prevent having to rerun the whole program since the call/cc, in many cases
18:04:15 <tusho> ais523: what should I write js2cps in do you think?
18:04:26 <ais523> JS is not a bad choice
18:04:57 <tusho> the browser itself should do the cps
18:05:03 <tusho> it'll load the cps translator
18:05:07 <tusho> then make a request to the feathejs source
18:05:09 <tusho> then run the cps translator
18:05:21 <ais523> tusho: it depends on how client-side you're doing things
18:05:25 <ais523> you like hobix, for instance
18:05:41 <tusho> ais523: well, for feathejs it just seems RIGHT
18:05:50 <tusho> it will have a server-side for sharing feather images, though
18:05:54 <ais523> this is going to be hilariously inefficient, though
18:05:59 <ais523> anyway, it needs to be client-side
18:06:09 <tusho> the sharing app will be server-side
18:06:15 <tusho> since I don't want people tampering with that, it's dangerous ;)
18:06:20 <ais523> tusho: because say if you're writing a feather interp in JS
18:06:22 <tusho> but the actual thing that saves it will be writteni n feather
18:06:36 <ais523> and you're compiling into JS-with-continuations
18:06:42 <ais523> that then needs to be compiled into JS-with-CPS to run
18:06:50 <ais523> anyway, a Feather interp in Feather is trivial
18:07:13 <ais523> most languages have eval so that you can build code at runtime
18:07:19 <ais523> Feather has eval so that you can modify it
18:07:36 <ais523> and yes, modifying eval does change the syntax of the language
18:08:16 <tusho> ais523: I think we should write js2cps first
18:08:19 <tusho> then worry about feathejs
18:08:40 <tusho> ais523: shall we just call feathejs ... feather?
18:08:50 <tusho> it seems official enough if we're both working on it
18:08:55 <tusho> and it's on eso-std.org
18:08:58 <tusho> ais523: feathejs is a mouthful
18:08:59 <ais523> it's rare to call the interp the same thing as the lang
18:09:09 <tusho> it's terribly common
18:09:15 <tusho> Ruby, Python, Perl.
18:09:17 <ais523> tusho: actually, more commonly the lang is named after the interp
18:09:19 <tusho> (don't go on about Perl vs perl.)
18:09:27 <ais523> e.g. those three cases
18:09:38 <ais523> but when the lang's named first, I reckon the interp should be called something else
18:09:43 <tusho> ais523: feathers will just make people mix up feather and feathers
18:09:47 <ais523> I like the idea of multiple feather interps
18:10:11 <ais523> after all, feather images /are/ portable between interps
18:10:22 <ais523> although reloading them on the same interp is much faster than porting them from one interp to another
18:10:43 <tusho> ais523: btw, who should own /home/feathejs?
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18:15:36 <tusho> ais523: git clone ssh://eso-std.org/home/feathejs/feathejs.git
18:15:48 <tusho> only one file there, and it's the runtime library for js2cps
18:16:26 <ais523> that's a short runtime library
18:16:47 <ais523> also, that return looks wrogn
18:17:00 <tusho> ais523: it's fully correct, sorry
18:17:03 <tusho> because you finish it off like this
18:17:08 <tusho> main(function (x) { return x; });
18:17:16 <tusho> besides, 'return' is an optimization hint
18:17:24 <tusho> it means: 'this is the end of this call stack thingy'
18:17:38 <tusho> the Chicken scheme compiler does CPS conversion and it does his
18:17:41 <ais523> oh, that's going to be processed by js2cps too?
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18:18:04 <tusho> ais523: it's fully correct, just trust me.
18:18:12 <tusho> since we're still using the js stack
18:18:16 <tusho> we will run out of it eventually
18:18:18 <tusho> which is where the wonderful
18:18:28 <tusho> super-delicious BAKER TRAMPOLINE THINGY WHAT'SITSCALLED
18:18:37 <tusho> comes in. Basically, in C, it's a setjmp/longjmp.
18:18:40 <ais523> the CPS conversion is function(a,b) { /* code */ return c; /* code */} into function(cont,a,b) { /* code */ cont(c); /* code */}
18:18:43 <tusho> And then you go back to the latest stack frame
18:18:51 <tusho> it's to return cont(c);
18:19:04 <tusho> perhaps you should read up on why you should do that.
18:19:05 <ais523> ah, for tail-recursion in the JS interp itself?
18:19:32 <tusho> ais523: yes, pretty much
18:19:41 <tusho> ais523: anyway, basically
18:19:44 <tusho> since we still use the js stack
18:19:45 <ais523> probably written CPS never needs to do returns, but they can be useful to avoid running out of stack
18:19:49 <tusho> but we keep the continuations along
18:19:54 <tusho> only the top stack element is useful
18:19:58 <tusho> while the others just take up space
18:20:07 <tusho> we let it grow, until we have, say, 100 elements
18:20:13 <tusho> then, we throw an exception down
18:20:20 <tusho> with the information of our locals, current function, etc
18:20:28 <tusho> then, the trampoline at the bottom catches it, and reinitiates the call
18:20:33 <ais523> tusho: actually, the exception only needs to throw a continuation and the argument to give it
18:20:36 <tusho> when it grows to 100 again, it drops down and bounces again
18:20:48 <tusho> but yeah, this is the best way to do js cps
18:21:20 <tusho> ais523: sorry, you're making no sense again
18:21:24 * tusho writes the trampoline
18:21:43 <ais523> as in, you wouldn't need to write return in return cont(c) if you're exception-throwing downwards
18:21:48 <ais523> because none of those returns ever happen
18:22:28 <tusho> ais523: yes they do
18:22:33 <tusho> if you don't reach 100 stack elements
18:22:51 <tusho> you're making no sense.
18:23:04 <ais523> tusho: the end of a function is never reached in CPS
18:23:11 <ais523> you always call a continuation right at the end
18:23:12 <tusho> ais523: yes, it is. when the program is finished.
18:23:22 <ais523> tusho: even then you just continuation out to an exit
18:23:32 <tusho> sorry. you're wrong. yes, that is pure cps
18:23:35 <ais523> or in JS's case, throw an exception
18:23:36 <tusho> but that's not how it's done mostly.
18:23:53 <tusho> read up on the chicken scheme compiler if you want to know more, but it'll become self-evident when cps2js evolves
18:24:02 <ais523> hey, I've just realised that my IOCCC thing I showed you was in continuation-passing style
18:24:19 <ais523> except the continuations were defined elsewhere
18:24:51 <ais523> tusho: I see how exploiting the returns could be useful as an optimisation in some cases
18:25:15 * tusho is just going to keep repeating that as he's explained it to the best of his ability
18:25:24 <tusho> if you don't understand it, well, you'll just have to wait until the code takes shape I guess
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18:25:34 <ais523> you haven't explained it at all, just asserted it repeatedly
18:26:30 <tusho> I've pointed you to more information
18:26:34 <tusho> (the Chicken compiler)
18:27:01 <ais523> tusho: if I write my own code that doesn't use return, will you concede that it isn't needed?
18:27:06 <tusho> ais523: it is not needed
18:27:09 <tusho> but it is far more useful
18:27:31 <ais523> well, then it's an optimisation, like I said
18:27:36 <tusho> it's not an optimization
18:27:43 <tusho> that's like saying c is an optimization of brainfuck
18:28:08 <ais523> tusho: would you say that PEBBLE's an optimisation of brainfuck?
18:29:37 <tusho> anyway, Narcissus (JS in JS) has a JS parser in JS
18:29:41 <tusho> which simplifies our work greatly
18:29:50 <ais523> yes, I was wondering where we'd get one of those
18:29:59 <ais523> incidentally, how many people told them to just use eval?
18:30:11 <tusho> it's buried in the mozilla cvs
18:30:18 <tusho> so I bet anyone who found it wouldn't be that dumb
18:30:34 <tusho> ais523: oh and I think it only works in mozilla
18:30:37 <tusho> but who cares, honesty
18:30:49 <ais523> tusho: what, mozilla-specific JS?
18:30:55 <ais523> as in, not working in WebKit, for instance?
18:30:55 <tusho> ais523: yeah, __proto__ and stuff
18:30:58 <ais523> that could be a problem
18:31:00 <tusho> webkit does __proto__
18:31:14 <tusho> opera doesn't though
18:31:26 <tusho> ais523: thankfully, this'll only be usable with FF3 or a webkit nightly
18:31:28 <ais523> what does __proto__ do?
18:31:32 <tusho> since those are both blazing fast
18:31:37 <tusho> and prototypical inheritance confusing stuff
18:31:47 <ais523> tusho: actually, the version of Konqueror I've got is pretty fast on complex JS
18:31:56 <tusho> it might seem like it
18:32:03 <ais523> but FF3 isn't, at least on Linux, because it has disk access problems
18:32:14 <ais523> it's a release-blocking bug that they're looking into at the moment
18:32:14 <tusho> but here's a comparison: FF3 can do what Safari3 lagged the system and took 10+ seconds to do,
18:32:17 <tusho> in about 3 seconds
18:32:22 <tusho> ais523: they've fixed that..
18:32:29 <tusho> it's at release candidate 3 now
18:32:38 <ais523> ah, I only have rc1 over here
18:32:46 <ais523> why wasn't rc2 good enough?
18:32:56 <tusho> ais523: rc3 just changed on mac os x
18:32:58 <tusho> not sure what they did
18:33:04 <tusho> a mac specific bug I think
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18:33:38 <tusho> ais523: do you mind if I depend on jquery
18:34:05 <tusho> ais523: a tiny, tiny JS library that makes DOM manipulation a cinch
18:34:05 <tusho> http://jquery.com/
18:34:19 <tusho> it does stuff chained
18:34:24 <tusho> which means all the methods return self
18:34:28 <tusho> very useful in practice
18:34:45 <tusho> ais523: Bonus points - if we use jQuery we can use jQuery UI - http://ui.jquery.com/
18:34:51 <augur> its also a pain in the ass to work with when making big complicated programs. :)
18:34:53 <tusho> which is some WEB TWO POINT OH-style gui widgets for jquery
18:34:58 <tusho> which will be useful for feather apps
18:35:01 <tusho> like the class browser
18:35:12 <tusho> it just doesn't do anything but dom manipulation
18:35:14 <tusho> and that's by design
18:35:32 <ais523> tusho: well, you need a proper separation
18:35:38 <ais523> it would be useful for writing IO commands
18:35:45 <ais523> but the class browser itself would be written in Feather
18:35:51 <tusho> ais523: yes, of course
18:35:55 <ais523> also, ideally the IO commands would be the same between interps
18:35:55 <tusho> I mean we would interface jquery ui into feather
18:36:11 <ais523> tusho: you would make the jquery UI available as IO commands that Feather could use
18:36:18 <tusho> ais523: 'IO commands'?
18:36:20 <tusho> you mean classes, right
18:36:25 <tusho> because jQuery UI is a class library
18:36:27 <ais523> tusho: IO commands are lower-level
18:36:28 <tusho> so we'd expose them as objects
18:36:32 <ais523> you expose them via classes, though
18:36:32 <tusho> ais523: no, I don't like that
18:36:39 <tusho> it should have a proper ffi
18:36:46 <ais523> tusho: they have to exist even if classes don't for some reasona
18:36:57 <tusho> ais523: well, then you can't use jQuery UI
18:37:01 <ais523> and FFIs are kind-of difficult with a language which can change its paradigm at will
18:37:16 <ais523> tusho: yes you can, you just reimplement it in Feather
18:37:21 <augur> now see, this is why i find it absolutely hilarious that people like JQuery
18:37:24 <ais523> you know how introspective Smalltalk is?
18:37:25 <augur> im in their little demo page
18:37:31 <augur> and half their shit doesnt even work
18:37:35 <tusho> augur: uh, yes it does
18:37:46 <ais523> tusho: actually, it didn't for me when I tried on Konqueror
18:37:53 <tusho> ais523: what, jQuery UI?
18:37:58 <tusho> jQuery UI is in preprepreprepreprperpeprepreprepalpha, basically.
18:37:59 <ais523> the example on their homepage
18:38:25 <ais523> it did nothing when I tried it
18:39:00 <ais523> yes, I was just explaining what symptomps I sawa
18:39:03 <augur> now im not saying _everything_ in JQuery doesn't work
18:39:18 <augur> but man, so much of it is buggy its not even funny
18:39:28 <tusho> augur: i don't think you've actually used jquery.
18:40:11 <augur> tusho, i've never used it because every time i try to, in the DEMOS, it fails.
18:40:25 <augur> its like scriptaculous
18:40:29 <tusho> Works for me and tons of other people too, including some of the most-visisted websites.
18:40:34 <augur> im sure it does, tusho
18:40:37 <tusho> You may be using w3m or something.
18:40:46 <ais523> most of the demos are working for me, sort of, in Konqueror
18:40:49 <ais523> but some things go wrong
18:40:51 <augur> but it doesnt matter to ME that it works for YOU
18:40:58 <ais523> e.g. the DOM screws up a bit on some of them
18:41:09 <tusho> ais523: konqueror isn't really that good, anyway.
18:41:15 <ais523> incidentally, have you seen how badly anagolf screws up on Konqueror when you use the back button?
18:41:32 <augur> theres a wonderful software development adage, about bug fixing
18:41:53 <augur> about how a coder should never EVER say something like "Well it works fine here!"
18:41:55 <ais523> augur: yes, several in fact, which one are you thinking of?
18:42:16 <augur> because it doesnt MATTER that it works fine on his computer, the only thing that ever matters is that it works fine on the user's computer
18:42:17 <ais523> augur: do you know about Schrodingbugs?
18:42:32 <ais523> tusho: JQuery UI's messing up too badly for me to be usable
18:42:45 <tusho> ais523: jquery ui is in pre-alpha
18:42:52 <augur> are those bugs that result from not collapsing wave functions? :p
18:42:54 <ais523> well, that explains why it isn't usable
18:42:59 <tusho> feathejs will be impossible slow on konq and everything else, ais523
18:43:09 <tusho> FF3 and nightly WebKits are the only things it'll be usable on, I suspect
18:43:14 <tusho> just because of the nature of feather
18:43:18 <tusho> and implementing it in something as slow as JS
18:43:29 <augur> "Supports IE 6.0+, FF 2+, Safari 3.1+, Opera 9.0+."
18:43:29 <tusho> so, it doesn't matter if it doesn't work on anything else
18:43:30 <ais523> augur: no, they're bits of code that works fine for everyone, but then someone looks at the source and sees that they never should have worked in the first place, then suddenly they break for everyone
18:43:41 <tusho> augur: it's pre-alpha.
18:43:48 <tusho> it will support that when they actually officially release.
18:43:49 <augur> heh well, i'm using Safari 3.1.1
18:43:55 <augur> tusho, where does it say it's prealpha
18:43:58 <ais523> augur: and yes, I know that doesn't make any sense, but some people swear they exist on occasion
18:44:10 <ais523> augur: tusho's just assuming that it's prealpha because it isn't working properly
18:44:15 <tusho> ais523: no, i'm not
18:44:25 <tusho> jesus christ, no I'm not
18:44:43 <ais523> http://ui.jquery.com/functional_demos/#ui.dialog <-- tusho: does that seriously work for you?
18:44:44 <augur> he's 12, so what can you expect, really
18:45:05 <tusho> ais523: works for me
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18:45:16 <tusho> ok, the dialog one doesn't
18:45:22 <tusho> because, guess what, they just launched the new site
18:45:54 <augur> interestingly, they're up to the 1.5 version
18:45:59 <augur> which means its post post post alpha :P
18:46:21 <augur> this isnt alpha stuff, tusho
18:46:26 <tusho> augur: no, sorry, you're wrong
18:46:32 <tusho> so it isn't stable
18:46:45 <tusho> besides, it's not the library itself that's particuarly unstable, it's THE SITE.
18:46:46 <augur> well i dont think this version is 1.5
18:46:48 <tusho> The site launched may 5th.
18:46:49 <augur> but they're working on 1.5
18:46:57 <tusho> ___it's the site___
18:47:28 <ais523> hmm... if ais523 numbers were calculated using chains of people who had ever agreed with me, the results would be quite different, I expect
18:47:29 <augur> ah no, they're on 1.5
18:47:53 <tusho> augur: _THE._ _SITE._
18:47:54 <augur> man, ressig is a fucking idiot.
18:48:08 <augur> what about the site, tusho.
18:48:12 <tusho> resig doesn't even work on jquery ui
18:48:17 <tusho> and that was totally uncalled for
18:48:34 <augur> wow, tusho, you're a bit of a ressig whore arent you
18:48:49 <tusho> i simply recommended using jquery and jquery ui
18:48:55 <tusho> and then defended it from incorrect criticism
18:49:06 <tusho> now resig is a fucking idiot and I'm a 'resig whore'? Yeah, fuck you.
18:49:07 <augur> *correct criticism.
18:49:11 <ais523> augur: stop trying to wind ehird up
18:49:18 <ais523> even though e deserves it
18:49:19 <augur> apparently i dont even have to try
18:49:23 <augur> i just have to disagree with him
18:49:29 <ais523> the bit at the end was a bit uncalled-for
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18:49:33 <augur> man, 12 year olds are bitchy
18:49:53 <ais523> and /quit rather than /part?
18:50:11 <ais523> besides, I haven't seen em that angry before
18:50:26 <augur> all because _I_ don't like JQuery
18:51:03 <augur> really, he IS a resig whore. or a jquery whore. or whatever you wanna call him.
18:51:10 <ais523> what or who is resig, anyway?
18:51:19 <augur> the guy who developed jquery
18:51:43 <ais523> well, the UI stuff seems very different from the rest of it
18:51:51 <augur> he gets lots of praise for building JQuery and everything i've seen that uses JQuery extensively doesn't work
18:52:02 <ais523> ah, I can see why that would annoy you
18:52:08 * ais523 wonders if ehird's logreading
18:52:20 <ais523> my guess is no, actually
18:52:34 <ais523> but e'll come back and read the logs eventually
18:52:48 <augur> dude, hes 12 years old. you cant expect him to act maturely
18:53:05 <ais523> augur: it's generally bad manners to say how old someone else is on the Internet
18:53:14 <ais523> COPPA and all that, it can lead to trouble
18:53:15 <augur> HE said how old he was the other day.
18:53:22 <augur> its public information.
18:53:31 <ais523> it's the principle of the thing
18:53:36 <ais523> anyway, my morals are weird
18:53:39 <ais523> at least according to ehird
18:53:46 <augur> i have to agree with him here
18:53:55 <ais523> quite a lot of people do
18:54:00 <ais523> I reckon my morals are weird too
18:54:10 <ais523> ehird started trying to find loopholes in them, but morals don't work like that
18:54:29 <augur> they do. PEOPLE don't work like that tho. ;)
18:54:48 <ais523> well, if there are loopholes in my morals it's because the words I expressed them in are wrong
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18:57:32 <ais523> looking for loopholes in a set of morals just defeats the point of morals
18:58:26 <ais523> no doubt, though, ehird's morals are Turing-complete, operate like a nomic, and have FFIs to twelve different languages
18:58:38 <ais523> or if they didn't before I said that they do now
18:58:47 * oerjan thought that 12 year old thing was a joke someone had made while he wasn't here...
19:00:06 <augur> tusho said it himself.
19:00:24 <ais523> augur: you've said it multiple times
19:00:30 <ais523> not sure about tusho emself, though
19:00:32 <augur> ive repeated it multiple times ;)
19:00:39 <augur> look at the logs, ais.
19:00:43 -!- tusho has joined.
19:00:47 <augur> tusho how old are you.
19:00:57 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:01:08 <ais523> augur: really, that's not funny
19:01:28 <augur> hey, i only asked him his age
19:01:37 <ais523> augur: yes, that's not a wise thing to do
19:01:42 <ais523> especially given the circumstances
19:01:46 <augur> why? am i going to break him?
19:01:49 <ais523> it may have been the reason e left in the first place
19:01:54 -!- tusho has joined.
19:02:03 <tusho> hmph. my message didn't get through
19:02:06 <tusho> ais523: yes they do / oerjan: no it wasn't
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19:02:09 <ais523> augur: AFAIR doing that's illegal in America, anyway
19:02:18 <augur> ais, are you serious? tusho isnt a fragile piece of china
19:02:24 <augur> ais, no its not illegal to ask someone their age
19:02:30 <ais523> it is if they're under 13
19:02:36 <ais523> and you seem to think e is
19:02:45 <augur> no, its not illegal if theyre under 13
19:03:07 <augur> where did you get such a silly idea
19:03:16 <augur> that you cant ask how old someone is if they're under 13
19:03:18 <ais523> I'm a bit unfamiliar with US law, not being American, I'll look it up
19:03:33 -!- tusho has joined.
19:03:48 <augur> tusho, ais thinks its illegal to ask someone their age if they're under 13.
19:04:13 <augur> why is it unwise, ey?
19:04:13 <tusho> to clear it up since you're not shutting up about it: yes, i'm 12, no, responding to everything I do with "oh but he's 12, you can't expect him to be reasonable!!1" is not a clever idea, because it's stupid and an invalid argument. and also my age is irrelevant.
19:04:15 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
19:04:28 <ais523> yes, tusho is right here
19:04:36 <ais523> and apparently logreading, so I was wrong
19:04:49 <augur> hes right that his age is irrelevant, or it would be if it wasn't clearly a factor in his illogical arguments.
19:05:19 <augur> i mean, really? im looking at the site, seeing bugs, and he says i'm not seeing bugs? lets be serious here
19:05:28 <augur> either its because hes 12 years old
19:05:36 <augur> or its because hes mentally retarded
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19:05:45 <ais523> augur: no, it's because e uses a different browser
19:05:51 <augur> yes but thats not what he said
19:05:56 <augur> he didnt say "well i dont see it"
19:06:01 <augur> he said "no YOURE not seeeing it"
19:06:26 <ais523> anyway, COPPA sec. 1303 (a) (1) debatably bans asking for personal information from people you suspect are under 13
19:06:32 -!- tusho has joined.
19:06:37 <ais523> although I'm not a lawyer, therefore am not sure
19:06:43 <tusho> augur, unless you're an expert in reality manipulation, or the logs are forged, I absolutely did not
19:06:44 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:06:54 <ais523> and no, e didn't, on that
19:07:01 <oerjan> actually could we do a compromise and say you are _both_ mentally retarded for continuing this quarreling?
19:07:18 <augur> "augur: uh, yes it does"
19:07:23 <ais523> oerjan: no, that's not a compromise, a compromise would be to say they're 50% wrong each
19:07:34 <ais523> anyway, it's past 7 on a Sunday, so I have to go
19:07:46 <ais523> hope the flame war's gone by the time I get back here on Monday
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19:08:06 <augur> so oerjan, whats your esolang of choice
19:11:27 <augur> i mean REAL esolang, not just combinatorial calculus
19:20:15 <augur> can you read unlambda or do you have to sit and decompose it?
19:21:31 -!- tusho has joined.
19:22:11 <augur> do you know of any esolangs that aren't incomprehensible, they just do things in a very different fashion?
19:23:14 <augur> intercal is so incomprehensible X.x
19:23:23 <tusho> only if you don't know it
19:23:29 <tusho> ais523 can read it fine
19:23:34 <augur> i mean something you can just look at and understand easily, and could be used for real programming
19:23:41 <tusho> augur: prolog could count
19:23:50 <augur> prolog is so fucking esoteric XD
19:24:11 <tusho> there is your answer then
19:24:23 <augur> but prolog doesnt do it differently :(
19:24:30 <augur> prolog is older than programs!
19:24:37 <augur> well, in spirit anyway
19:24:38 <tusho> but it sure does things differently
19:24:55 <augur> yeah differently than most programming languages
19:25:00 <augur> but i mean REALLY different
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19:25:13 <tusho> prolog is pretty different to me.
19:25:17 <augur> i dont know what that would MEAN mind you
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19:28:28 <augur> damn interblogs disconnected me! >|
19:31:22 <augur> i wonder if anyones ever set up a big complicated prolog environment
19:31:31 <augur> with lots of implications
19:31:35 <augur> and then did something like
19:34:01 <augur> itd be interesting. plug in the laws of physics and let prolog have a go. :p
19:34:27 <tusho> augur: find all the truths makes prolog complain
19:34:44 <tusho> % ... 1,000,000 ............ 10,000,000 years later
19:34:45 <tusho> % >> 42 << (last release gives the question)
19:37:11 <tusho> augur: it actually does that
19:37:55 <augur> tusho, what do you think of the idea that variables can store multiple simultaneous values?
19:38:09 <tusho> augur: quantum arrays
19:38:13 <augur> not values in data structures, but just multiple values
19:38:17 <augur> quantum arrays? lol
19:38:26 <augur> im toying with the idea of something like
19:39:03 <tusho> augur: you lose a lot of nice properties
19:39:42 <augur> i rather like it because you could get a bunch of nice stuff
19:40:00 <augur> (1, 2, 3, 4)*2 == 2, 4, 6, 8
19:40:37 <augur> or if you had a let like thing
19:41:09 <augur> let z = x such that x > 4
19:41:19 <augur> would sort of filter
19:42:59 <tusho> augur: what about mixing it with my inside-out conditionals
19:43:11 <augur> what are you inside out conditions??
19:43:30 <tusho> if n == 0 { fact n = 0 } else { if result == n * fact (n-1) { fact n = result } }
19:43:36 <tusho> you can do conditionals to assert things
19:43:42 <tusho> if x `member` xs { select xs = x }
19:44:22 <augur> im not entirely sure how that works, but conditionals on multiple values will simultaneously evaluate for all matching multiple values
19:45:25 <tusho> augur: im not sure how it works
19:45:26 <augur> sorry, that should've been x > 1 obviously :p
19:45:29 <tusho> ihope suggested an alternate syntax
19:45:35 <tusho> if { fact n = 0 } then n == 0
19:45:43 <tusho> which makes more sense I guess
19:45:53 <tusho> if { select xs = x } then { x `member` xs }
19:45:55 <augur> well, what are inside out conditionals, first
19:46:41 <tusho> augur: what I just demonstarted
19:47:02 <augur> i dont see what that /means/ tho
19:47:11 <augur> i can see an example of syntax, but i dont know what it does
19:48:34 <tusho> but it makes sense, really
19:48:43 <augur> how can it make sense if you dont know what it does? :P
19:49:46 <tusho> if { f x && x `member` xs && x `member` ys } then { filter f xs = ys }
19:50:14 <augur> ah, so its implicational
19:51:04 <augur> filter(f, xs, ys) :- member(x,xs), member(x,ys), f(x)
19:51:11 <tusho> augur: yeah, I likened it to prolog too
19:51:14 <tusho> I guess it IS just prolog
19:51:24 <augur> mind you, that definition of filter is incorrect ;)
19:51:43 <tusho> augur: it's just quite funny - if you 'unwrap' the conditional from the function body, kinda, you get prolog
19:51:59 <augur> well, its actually exactly prolof
19:52:10 <augur> because prologs :- is a logical implication
19:52:44 <augur> if { y } then { x }
19:53:27 <tusho> i just find it funny how little you have to chance
19:54:26 <augur> the real reason that theres so little to change is not the "reversal" thing but rather because you dont need to have ys available first
19:54:38 <augur> i could easily see that being some sort of /assertion/
19:54:54 <augur> if( ... ){ ys_is_a_filter_of_xs = true; }
19:55:04 <augur> or something like that
19:55:18 <augur> assert( ys = filter f xs )
19:55:34 <augur> but that only works if ys already exists
19:55:41 <augur> which i dont think you were implying in your version
20:02:30 <tusho> augur: So is bollflflllflflflf a dskfsdjflsdfsdf?
20:02:39 <tusho> (This is very important.)
20:05:12 <augur> no, only folflfblblbbb is.
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20:06:41 <augur> its an incredibly common error that people math, tho, and i dont know why
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20:13:37 <augur> btw, do you know if prolog can do reverse deductions
20:13:46 <augur> if theres some rule
20:13:51 <augur> can you assert some y
20:13:57 <augur> and prolog will say aha, x!
20:18:49 <tusho> that would be slightly impossible, i think
20:19:11 <augur> x :- y is just a biconditional
20:20:21 <augur> i can envision some ways to achieve it
20:22:08 <augur> the classic example of prolog is the grandparentage thing
20:22:14 <oerjan> no, just one-way conditional (in prolog anyway)
20:22:33 <augur> no, its biconditional. to show x, show y
20:23:02 <augur> its biconditional. there are no cases where x is true but y is false
20:23:07 <augur> and where y is true but x is false
20:23:48 <oerjan> you can have another statement x :- z, say
20:24:00 <augur> ah, no sorry i guess i was thinking more strictly not prolog syntax
20:24:14 <augur> is just one conditional statement spread over two lines
20:24:51 <augur> so yeah, in that regard single rules in prolog arent biconditional
20:25:01 <oerjan> well as long as x is an atom
20:25:22 <augur> but prolog systems are biconditional in that all the ORs on the left are part of a larger biconditional statement
20:25:38 <augur> i mean, if you have x :- y; x :- z
20:25:50 <augur> then logically thats x iff y or z
20:26:04 <oerjan> are you familiar with horn clauses?
20:26:15 <augur> yeah, they're not that complicated.
20:27:01 <oerjan> i suppose you may be correct when you make the closed world assumption
20:27:04 <augur> i guess you can say its not strictly biconditional since prolog doesn't treat absence as negation
20:27:20 <oerjan> i.e. assuming nothing is true unless it is provable from the given set
20:27:22 <augur> yeah, im assuming the rules you put in are all there is and nothing more ;)
20:28:06 <augur> you cant run logic backwards to discover new rules :p
20:28:29 <augur> but in the grandparent example, for instance
20:28:43 <augur> its relatively clear that if I just assert
20:28:50 <augur> parent(a,b), parent(b,c)
20:28:58 <augur> its trivial to run the logic backwards and decude
20:29:12 <augur> even if i dont ASK ?- grandparent(a,c)
20:31:01 <oerjan> well proof search is possible it just tends to blow up for anything complicated
20:31:36 <augur> were in #esoteric. uselessness up in the face of complexity is practically the motto of this place
20:32:21 <augur> why did i type up? that makes no sense.
20:34:51 <tusho> augur: #haskell are making co-jokes
20:37:20 <augur> yes but are they doing them in cotime
20:37:23 <augur> thats the question
20:37:26 <oerjan> what a bunch of co-nuts
20:37:43 <augur> coconuts are just nuts
20:37:52 <tusho> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
20:37:54 <augur> conuts, on the otherhand
20:38:04 <augur> are nuts that exist in perpendicular time.
20:40:00 <augur> im listening to macbreak weekly
20:40:16 <augur> and theyre talking about how steve jobs was quite gaunt looking at wwdc
20:41:05 <augur> and ihnatko said "it's not that he didn't look good, but... he looked like a vegan"
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21:15:17 <tusho> GregorR: <3 YOU"RE HERE
21:15:24 <tusho> I have so many awesome jsmips ideas.
21:15:36 <tusho> GregorR: For example. I figured how to make it 'TEH FAST'.
21:15:47 <tusho> Compile to JavaScript and use eval().
21:15:54 <tusho> Far, far faster than interpreting it.
21:16:14 <GregorR> That's on my future agenda, interpretation was just a "is-this-even-feasible?" step.
21:16:14 <tusho> GregorR: Of course, startup goes terribly slowly, but then the program blazes.
21:16:22 <tusho> And, what's better, you can just save the compiled version.
21:16:26 <GregorR> I'd like to compile ELF files directly to JavaScript code and then just include a foo.js
21:16:27 <tusho> GregorR: Well before you get in too deep..
21:16:38 <tusho> I was thinking more intermediate.
21:16:46 <tusho> That is, it uses the current code
21:16:50 <tusho> but produces a function on-the-fly at startup
21:17:31 <GregorR> Hm, not sure what you mean.
21:17:33 <tusho> GregorR: Anyway, we don't need mipses even with threads.
21:17:44 <tusho> Just make a MIPS object keep track of its 'children' (threads created in itself)
21:17:52 <tusho> Then make the MIPS object stop its children when it is stopped.
21:18:16 <GregorR> The problem isn't controlling the children, that's easy, the problem is context switching.
21:18:31 <tusho> GregorR: You still don't need mipses.
21:18:40 <tusho> (I mean the global array)
21:18:45 <GregorR> Oh duh - yeah, they could all still run.
21:18:57 <GregorR> I have no idea why I thought mipses was necessary for that.
21:19:04 <tusho> GregorR: Because you're a retard?
21:19:20 <tusho> I'm gonna go assasinate mips
21:19:56 <tusho> GregorR: And change .stopped = true; into .stop()
21:20:22 <GregorR> Good ol' accessor functions :P
21:20:36 <tusho> GregorR: By the way, I have another speed increase, but it involves basically jiggling about the whole of mips.js
21:20:48 <tusho> Specifically, you're doing everything in the constructor, whereas you should be putting functions and the like on to MIPS.prototype
21:20:53 <tusho> Permission to convert 'em all?
21:21:02 <tusho> It'll make MIPS creation faster, and is also 'better'
21:21:26 <GregorR> Feel free, I'm not particularly used to JavaScript's prototype syntax - I like the system, never liked the syntax, so I never got used to using it :P
21:21:46 <tusho> OK, then don't touch the code while I do this
21:24:56 <tusho> GregorR: JS just has function scope
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21:25:33 <GregorR> I suppose that's true *shrugs*
21:28:34 <tusho> GregorR: Shit, I broke it. :P
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21:29:57 <GregorR> oklofok, one of the oklofolk
21:30:27 * tusho kicks js for being stupid
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21:31:06 * GregorR kicks tusho for offending the JavaScript gods.
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21:31:43 <tusho> GregorR: wtf zeroArray is not defined
21:33:00 <tusho> I have a great way to speed up performance.
21:33:11 <tusho> Your include stuff isn't actually needed, all of them can be included in tandem.
21:33:15 <tusho> In the <head> section
21:34:52 <oerjan> hm the oklofolk. small blue gnomes living in Finland, in the valley next to the muumins
21:35:09 <oerjan> or am i confusing with smurfs
21:38:36 <tusho> GregorR: ok, now just to fix the mountain of bugs
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21:40:39 <olsner> c-c-c-connection reset by peer
21:41:01 <tusho> GregorR: if I do this
21:41:04 <tusho> function initMIPSIO() {
21:41:11 <tusho> and I include mipsio.js in my <head>
21:41:20 <tusho> and use that function in window.onload
21:41:24 <tusho> why does it say it's not defined?
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22:00:09 * oerjan gets the strange feeling #esoteric went into a time loop...
22:00:24 <oerjan> a slightly imprecise one
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22:00:54 <tusho> kubrick.freenode.net: ping
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22:04:37 * SimonRC tries to recall what computer system it was that suffered from a certain piece of memory getting corrupted always in the same way, and it had a way to detect this corruption and abort with an error message, but alas the corruption always overwrote the length-and-pointer of the error message string, giving the same substring of the error message each time.
22:04:55 <tusho> SimonRC tries to recall what computer system it was that suffered from a certain piece of memory getting corrupted always in the same way, and it had a way to detect this corruption and abort with an error message, but alas the corruption always overwrote the length-and-pointer of the error message string, giving the same substring of the error message each time.
22:07:18 <tusho> SimonRC tries to recall what computer system it was that suffered from a certain piece of memory getting corrupted always in the same way, and it had a way to detect this corruption and abort with an error message, but alas the corruption always overwrote the length-and-pointer of the error message string, giving the same substring of the error message each time.
22:07:31 <tusho> SimonRC tries to recall what computer system it was that suffered from a certain piece of memory getting corrupted always in the same way, and it had a way to detect this corruption and abort with an error message, but alas the corruption always overwrote the length-and-pointer of the error message string, giving the same substring of the error message each time.
22:07:47 <SimonRC> for some reason, BB software writers think it is a really great idea to abbreviate the list of pages of a thread
22:07:56 <tusho> for some reason, BB software writers think it is a really great idea to abbreviate the list of pages of a thread
22:08:13 <tusho> SimonRC: Kareha doesn't do that
22:08:36 <SimonRC> goodness, we couldn't be expected to actually handle a list of 50 page nubers all on our own
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22:08:46 <tusho> Kareha doesn't doooooooooooooooo that.
22:10:44 <SimonRC> tusho: gee I wonder wht youwatched on the telly last night
22:11:15 <SimonRC> um, the way you repeated everything I said was a bit of a give-away
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22:11:55 <tusho> SimonRC: I'm sorry. I have no idea what you're talking about.
22:12:14 <SimonRC> maybe it is just a co-incidence
22:12:23 <tusho> What are you talking about?
22:12:26 <SimonRC> I was referring to Midnight
22:12:41 <SimonRC> The latest Doctor Who episode
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22:13:07 <GregorR> tusho: You'd better not have removed my include stuff.
22:13:17 <tusho> GregorR: Haven't committed but yes.
22:13:27 <SimonRC> which includes an inteligence that (initially) repeats what everyone says
22:13:30 <GregorR> tusho: Some ridiculously tiny performance benefit at the cost of requiring the user to include everything from html? God that's stupid.
22:14:06 <tusho> GregorR: Um, it's 6 files.
22:14:14 <tusho> And regardless of the performance benefit, it has two extra pros:
22:14:17 <GregorR> tusho: That means that if somebody else was using this code from their html, they'd have to update their include list if we had the audacity of adding a new header.
22:14:19 <tusho> 1. firebug doesn't mess up the location info
22:14:22 <tusho> 2. it's a lot simpler
22:14:50 <tusho> GregorR: You are assuming that anyone is actually going to use this project, and even write their own page using it...
22:15:05 <GregorR> Even if that's not the case, I should support that possibility.
22:15:18 <tusho> GregorR: Well it's a bit late, as this is bundled with my prototyping
22:15:35 <tusho> Which is working fine, apart from one bug.
22:15:47 <GregorR> If you push the removal of includes, I revoke your push privileges. You can push by sending things in for my approval.
22:16:09 <GregorR> Seriously, that's really annoying. Don't make giant architectural changes to my code for really stupid performance benefits at a disadvantage to the user of the code.
22:16:20 <tusho> giant architechtural changes? .. it was a few lines
22:16:28 <tusho> also, firebug is very useful.
22:16:31 <GregorR> It was a few /lines/, but a giant /architectural/ change.
22:16:36 <tusho> I'll just fork, I guess.
22:16:42 <tusho> Which is really silly, of course.
22:16:48 <tusho> But I like this project. So.
22:17:15 <GregorR> Can somebody else come into this conversation on how ridiculous it is to remove a working include() primitive from JavaScript? After I finally got include() working in a language that stupidly has no include()?
22:17:36 <GregorR> Which allows the user of the code to not have to maintain a ridiculous include list.
22:17:46 <tusho> GregorR: include() is pretty common in JS .. it's just rarely needed
22:18:33 <GregorR> include() allows extensibility. Without include(), any time you add a new .js file you have to update every .html file that uses the code.
22:19:23 <tusho> GregorR: what's wrong with one more line?...
22:19:48 <GregorR> One more line times X files where X is a number not within your control = bad.
22:20:05 <tusho> ... This is silly.
22:20:14 <tusho> The actual chance of this happening = 0.
22:20:20 <tusho> The actual chance of wanting to use firebug = 1.
22:22:05 <tusho> GregorR: but feel free to revoke my push privileges; I'm happy developing a fork
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22:49:27 <tusho> GregorR: Anyway, for when you have multiple files, the overwhelmingly common thing to do is to concat them all together, then run them through a JS packer
22:49:34 <tusho> So, still only one include for this mythical external user who wrote his own page.
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22:54:16 <Dewi> tusho: lack of includes is the reason pages include dozens of hundreds of kb of unused script
22:54:24 <Dewi> dozens or hundreds, even
22:54:34 <tusho> Dewi: that's called "bad coding"
22:54:43 <tusho> thankfully, JSMIPS depends on all of itself.
22:54:59 <Dewi> tusho: how is it bad coding to not be able to do the impossible?
22:55:30 <Dewi> tusho: requiring a whole server-side infrastructure just to have dynamically loading scripts is stupid
22:55:49 <tusho> I think you're misguided as to what I am talking about.
22:56:14 <Dewi> javascript needs includes almost as badly as it needs decent namespacing
22:57:10 <tusho> Dewi: ecmascript4 has namespaces
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22:57:39 <tusho> tusho: GregorR: Anyway, for when you have multiple files, the overwhelmingly common thing to do is to concat them all together, then run them through a JS packer
22:57:39 <tusho> [22:50] tusho: for distribution
22:57:40 <tusho> [22:50] tusho: So, still only one include for this mythical external user who wrote his own page.
22:57:47 <tusho> (in case he missed it due to netsplit)
23:00:45 <GregorR> OK, that's a good point >_>
23:01:02 * tusho feels victorious :-P
23:01:09 <GregorR> I forgot all about packing.
23:01:14 <Dewi> tusho: hmm... I've seen techniques based on people adding <script> tags to the DOM. You could probably add/remove modules that way if you really needed to
23:01:25 <tusho> Dewi: yes, that is what gregorr currently does
23:01:29 <GregorR> Dewi: That's what I'm -- yeah.
23:01:33 <tusho> but yeah, once you're packing, you might as well just run 'cat' over them
23:03:39 <tusho> Anyway, as for dependencies...
23:03:50 <tusho> mipsio depends on console. mips depends on mipsio.
23:03:52 <tusho> Everything else has no dependencies.
23:04:00 <Dewi> I still think there's a case for <script src="jspacker.js?module=foo&module=bar&module=baz">
23:04:08 <GregorR> mips.js depends on vmem.js
23:04:18 <tusho> Dewi: yes, sometimes
23:06:18 <Dewi> most of the problem is the way you often don't have access to the <head> from the context you're working in
23:06:29 <Dewi> but that's more about how most serverside frameworks suck
23:06:53 <tusho> Dewi: re: serverside frameworks - ditto to that
23:07:02 <Dewi> most of these technologies work okay on their own
23:07:15 <tusho> my dream server-side framework is ecmascript4 or similar (i.e. same server/client language)
23:07:19 <tusho> that lets you access the DOM of the resulting page
23:07:20 <Dewi> but I've never seen HTML + CSS + javascript actually working comfortably together
23:07:27 <tusho> it would be so blissful
23:09:00 * GregorR disappears into Fathers-Day-ness.
23:09:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
23:09:10 <tusho> GregorR: Do I have permission to push? :-P
23:12:15 <tusho> Dewi: Do you agree ;_;
23:14:15 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:15:38 <Dewi> tusho: I don't have all the context
23:15:56 <tusho> tusho: my dream server-side framework is ecmascript4 or similar (i.e. same server/client language)
23:15:56 <tusho> [23:08] tusho: that lets you access the DOM of the resulting page
23:15:59 <tusho> tusho: it would be so blissful
23:16:06 <tusho> (in reply to what you said about server-side frameworks)
23:16:13 <Dewi> tusho: oh that
23:16:49 <Dewi> tusho: I'm not sure how that would work
23:17:04 <Dewi> tusho: but server-side frameworks are what's generating the DOM
23:17:22 <tusho> Dewi: basically, you could do like
23:17:28 <Dewi> tusho: I have no respect for the 95% of templating systems that consider the output to be text
23:17:29 <tusho> $("foo").addClass("bar")
23:17:35 <tusho> before the page gets to the browser
23:17:42 <tusho> (of course not in a controller...)
23:18:01 <tusho> Dewi: the problem with xml templating languages is that they break when you're not generating xml.
23:18:51 <Dewi> tusho: xslt has its uglinesses, certainly. I just haven't seen anything else that natively has a concept of the structure of the output
23:19:20 <tusho> Dewi: i think what to do here is embrace the unix philosophy that it's probably text.
23:19:27 <Dewi> tusho: so for me, at the moment, I just have to think of HTML as an XML tree serialized down to HTML4
23:19:52 <Dewi> tusho: oh, and that text is probably 8-bit bytes? bleh.
23:20:27 <tusho> Dewi: maybe if you replaced 'XML' with 's-expressions' and 'XSLT' with 'lisp' you could have a winner ;)
23:20:31 <Dewi> I'll be happy to treat it as text if and when it's possible to quickly and easily parse/serialize fragments
23:21:07 <Dewi> tusho: heh. I don't know lisp, but XSLT does kind of seem like "lisp with 1% of the functionality and 100 times more verbose syntax"
23:21:36 <Dewi> (and I don't know what s-expressions are)
23:21:45 <tusho> Dewi: s-expressions are what lisp code and data is made of.
23:25:00 <Dewi> tusho: a confusing little bit of haskell is all I got fed at university, and the closest thing I've had to non-imperative programming since is XSL
23:25:53 <augur> well, lisp DATA is made of lists
23:26:05 <augur> which can be represented externally as s-expressions
23:29:12 <tusho> Dewi: want a mocked-up XSLT-replacement I just wrote?
23:29:14 <tusho> i.e. an example on it
23:29:19 <tusho> where it is unimplemented
23:29:31 <Dewi> tusho: I guess...
23:29:34 <tusho> http://paste.lisp.org/display/62294
23:29:41 <augur> dewi, whatchu trying to make?
23:29:42 <tusho> nicer than xslt, at least
23:29:59 <tusho> though a little hacky..
23:30:12 <Dewi> augur: nothing, just talking about how server-side templating languages that don't appreciate the structure of their output, suck
23:30:21 <Dewi> augur: while at the same time, I have a feeling XSLT sucks in most other ways
23:30:35 <augur> ah. well noone uses XSLT to do templating. ;)
23:30:39 <Dewi> and I don't know of anything else
23:30:47 <augur> atleast, noone i know who does this stuff professionally.
23:31:01 <Dewi> augur: I've never seen professional code that didn't
23:31:14 <GregorR> I wish there was a blit-and-raster-oriented equivalent to <canvas>
23:31:21 <tusho> GregorR: I thought you were gone.
23:31:23 <GregorR> Then SDL could run pseudo-efficiently on JSMIPS :P
23:31:26 <Dewi> augur: not professional as in "doing it for money", professional as in "this code is not wildly irresponsible and broken"
23:31:31 <augur> everyone i know does their templating in their language of choice
23:31:32 <GregorR> I was showering, now is the brief time between showering and leaving :P
23:31:34 <augur> namely ruby or php
23:31:53 <tusho> augur: Yes, that's because you hang out with the WEB TWO POINT OH crowd.
23:32:10 <Dewi> augur: I don't know ruby, but PHP has large amounts of problems relating to treating HTML as text, and text as bytes
23:32:25 <augur> hm. ive never had any issues with it doing that but ok.
23:32:26 <Dewi> it's almost impossible to write truly correct code
23:32:47 <augur> well, the majority of websites that use dynamic content are run off php
23:33:02 <Dewi> I don't know anyone who habitually escapes content each and every time it moves between native, HTML, database, etc
23:33:37 <Dewi> they just do it when they predict a problem
23:33:53 <Dewi> except programmers are really bad at predicting problems; it would be better if we just did things right
23:34:10 <tusho> Dewi: http://paste.lisp.org/display/62294#1
23:34:13 <augur> ::shrug:: never seen any problems.
23:34:15 <tusho> replaced the XML in my example with s-expressions
23:34:16 <Dewi> augur: most dynamic web sites that get hacked also are
23:34:28 <tusho> augur: because you don't think about languages other than english, presumably.
23:34:49 <Dewi> tusho: or even english with punctuation
23:34:57 <augur> sure, but thats mostly because of bad SQL management yeah.
23:35:17 <Dewi> tusho: MS Word and Mac punctuation gets chewed up real nicely by systems using Latin-1
23:35:24 <augur> but thats a problem with anything db based
23:35:43 <Dewi> augur: I don't think it's really SQL's problem
23:35:55 <tusho> augur: PLACEHOLDERS
23:35:58 <tusho> Let me show PHP programmers them!
23:36:00 <augur> its a problem of poorly managing your DB tho
23:36:16 <Dewi> augur: most php coders don't even use the parameterised SQL interface they are given
23:36:20 <augur> but you're always going to have issues with sql injection
23:36:42 <Dewi> augur: I've literally never read code other than mine that used a parameterised interface to SQL
23:36:51 <augur> XSLT doesnt make that vanish, as far as i know.
23:36:57 <tusho> augur: NO. You're not going to always have issues with it.
23:37:03 <tusho> Placeholders = SQL injection is IMPOSSIBLE.
23:37:07 <Dewi> augur: no, because XSLT is at the other end
23:37:24 <Dewi> augur: for databases, parameterised interfaces are the way to go
23:37:26 <tusho> Oh shit, augur doesn't know what SQL placeholders are.
23:37:46 <Dewi> tusho and I are using different language to describe the same thing, btw
23:37:53 * tusho makes mental note - never, ever use any code augur has touched
23:37:59 <tusho> even if it doesn't use a database.
23:37:59 <Dewi> parameters/placeholders
23:38:19 <tusho> GregorR: Loser. I run Web 4.1 pre-pre-pre-pre-post-beta-alpha-pre-pre-pre-RC60.
23:38:53 <augur> is there a serious discussion here or did i just fall into the middle of tusho having a seizure?
23:39:06 <tusho> #esoteric is the premier channel for seizures.
23:39:24 * Dewi suspects a causal link
23:39:40 <Dewi> I mean I come in here and innocently complain about how everything sucks
23:39:45 <Dewi> and before I know it, I'm failing to read lisp
23:39:59 <tusho> Dewi: my code isn't THAT hard to understand is it :P
23:40:10 <tusho> oh I missed passing the users list to mapcar though
23:40:26 * tusho continues work on the amazingly awesome feathejs
23:41:52 <tusho> Feathejs is really truly awesome though.
23:42:01 <Dewi> tusho: that (table) is a hell of a long way from anything a designer would touch
23:42:33 <tusho> Dewi: however, competent designers write their own xhtml and css
23:42:41 <tusho> so I'm sure you could mangle something that they'd touch into XML
23:42:42 <Dewi> tusho: incidentally the reason for adopting XSLT where I worked 3 years ago, was the foolish expectation that designers and their tools (dreamweaver etc) could handle it
23:43:14 <tusho> Dewi: I'd say that what to do in this case is to have the designer create a mockup (i.e. with 3 fake entries of people)
23:43:18 <tusho> then add the declarations yourself
23:43:21 <tusho> unfortunate, but foolproof
23:43:22 <Dewi> tusho: oh, and I need to say we were actually using a near-identical metalanguage of XSLT - where there was an implied "/"-matching template around everything so static HTML was a valid XSL that would output itself
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23:44:12 <augur> hey, i claimed him first! >O
23:44:28 <tusho> THOUGH. WE CAN SHARE!
23:44:39 <tusho> (and one again #esoteric turns homoerotic)
23:44:49 <augur> was it ever NOT homoerotic?
23:45:01 <tusho> before slereah came.
23:45:11 <tusho> oklopol and bsmntbombdood did have the occasional orgies, though.
23:45:21 <augur> slereah is just cocks cocks cocks
23:45:41 <augur> oklopol, i think im going to write the parser for Reactance tonight
23:45:51 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: you, me, oklopol, augur
23:45:52 <augur> we should formalize the grammar.
23:46:02 <tusho> augur: fuck you, we're being homoerotic.
23:46:09 <tusho> can't you see we're BUSY?!
23:46:12 <augur> tusho, you're underage. i cant homoeroticize you.
23:46:26 * tusho sets mode +i #esoteric
23:46:36 <augur> ::homoeroticizes tusho::
23:46:44 * tusho sets mode -i #esoteric
23:47:04 <augur> tusho have you watched sicp?
23:47:20 <augur> you should, its really good
23:47:27 <tusho> maybe I will, sometime
23:56:08 <SimonRC> I thought SICP was a book?
23:56:16 <augur> it was a lecture before it was a book
23:56:26 <augur> and there are videos of the lectures on the interblogs
23:56:40 <augur> actually, there are videos of a number of different versions
23:57:16 <augur> one set of videos is Abelson and Sussman teaching at HP
23:57:27 <augur> very good, very fast
23:57:35 <augur> theres also brian harvey from berkeley
23:58:01 <augur> you can watch various versions of the SICP course from the last few years
23:59:16 * SimonRC goes to bed ( http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html )
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00:00:14 <oklopol> I’m a prayer for your loneliness
00:00:26 <oklopol> From the binds of your lowliness
00:00:28 <tusho> what happened to oklopol
00:00:31 <oklopol> The right slot for your sacred key
00:00:34 <tusho> WHAT HAPPENED TO OKLOPOL
00:00:38 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
00:00:46 <tusho> WHAT HAPPENED TO OKLOPOL
00:00:49 <SimonRC> he grew lots of extra mouths
00:01:01 <oklopol> some times you have to paste cof lyrics
00:01:34 <augur> i'd like to paste YOUR lyrics
00:02:03 <oklopol> I wake up from my dream to see
00:02:09 <oklopol> Blood on my hands and on the floor
00:02:15 <oklopol> I know I'll die before they catch me
00:02:22 <augur> those are horrible lyrics
00:02:31 <oklopol> I know that you came here to kill me
00:02:31 <oklopol> Clinging hard to the knife that I gave thee
00:02:31 <oklopol> It’s a shame you can’t see what is inside
00:02:31 <oklopol> Inside the fact inside the reason
00:02:53 <oklopol> i don't really care for lyrics
00:03:09 <oklopol> just seen people paste them on channels for no reason, so... naturally i have to do that too
00:03:21 <tusho> oklopol: you visit channels with lots of emos
00:03:32 * tusho - providing useful information since sometime
00:03:52 <oklopol> i don't think these are exactly the emo kinda songs
00:04:05 <oklopol> but i guess the pasting may be emoish
00:04:14 <augur> listen to real music, you hippies
00:04:15 <oklopol> randomish can be pretty much anyish.
00:04:38 <oklopol> cradle of filth is not that bad
00:05:54 <oklopol> nothing wrong with kamelot, but i haven't heard much
00:06:05 <augur> actually i only like three songs
00:06:13 <oklopol> i haven't hear much cof either
00:06:25 <augur> descent of the archangel, lost and damnged, and shadow of uther
00:08:17 <oklopol> augur: what's wrong with reflection's lyrics?
00:08:35 <augur> firstly, i dont listen to lyrics
00:08:45 <tusho> second, you're a fag
00:08:50 <augur> theyre almost invariable pointless
00:09:09 <augur> oklopols not gay, he's bi
00:09:29 <tusho> any metal band could release an album where all the lyrics are "THESE LYRICS ARE FUCKING POINTLESS" over and over again
00:09:35 <tusho> i don't think it'd sound noticably different
00:09:58 <oklopol> depends, there's the kind that's supposed to be deep and no one understands it
00:10:03 <oklopol> but then there's the story kind
00:10:22 <oklopol> that's really singing short stories, they can be good stories
00:10:48 <tusho> oh, I also like radohead, which I guess makes me an idiot
00:10:51 <tusho> but I already knew I was an idiot
00:11:15 <augur> some of radiohead is good too.
00:13:12 <oklopol> augur: you didn't answer em
00:13:16 <tusho> augur: you're a javascripter aren't you
00:13:23 <tusho> Feathejs will make you want to kill me
00:13:26 <tusho> it's comprised of two parts
00:13:28 <oklopol> especially the the question last night
00:13:29 <tusho> js2cps, and feathejs
00:13:37 <tusho> js2cps takes javascript source and rewrites it into continuation-passing style.
00:13:47 <tusho> feathejs is compiled with js2cps.
00:13:51 <tusho> augur: it's crazy!
00:14:01 <tusho> but it gives you continuations in java, so yay
00:14:07 <tusho> augur: it's an implementation of ais523's esolang
00:14:12 <tusho> Feather, which lets you retroactively change time
00:14:14 <augur> i have no problem with continuations.
00:14:27 <tusho> augur: yeah, but considering how fragile JS is in the browser in the first place :P
00:14:42 <tusho> and since js2cps is written in JS, i'm using a javascript parser written in javascript
00:14:54 <tusho> and making the browser do the compilation :D
00:15:00 <augur> oklopol: what question??
00:15:09 <oklopol> augur: have you written interpreters
00:15:12 <augur> whats wrong with the lyrics?
00:15:19 <augur> yeah, i've written a number of interpreters.
00:15:33 <augur> what ISNT wrong with them
00:15:48 <oklopol> the latter lyrics were from reflection, which is my song
00:16:01 <tusho> I think oklopol should never make music
00:16:08 <tusho> or at least ... non-instrumental music
00:16:13 <oklopol> tusho: have you heard my music?
00:16:16 <augur> oklopol makes instrumental music?
00:16:57 <oklopol> www.vjn.fi/oklopol in case you're interested
00:17:02 <oklopol> amorte is our current project
00:17:23 <oklopol> i sing, very badly, i sing a lot better nowadays
00:18:07 <oklopol> where did you get it? i want one
00:18:54 <oklopol> i have made a lot of "instrumental music" with guitar pro, but it's midi, so it's not really suited for listening
00:19:12 <tusho> mine is a moog theremin
00:19:13 <tusho> its wodden and black
00:19:25 <oklopol> also with audacity, but for some reason people never seem to like brainfuck.mp3
00:19:27 <tusho> it'd be more awesome if i had one of those big wooden ones but they cost like £1000
00:19:44 <oklopol> (i also used some c++ generated wavs in the song)
00:20:08 <tusho> i also have an alright-kinda guitar.
00:20:24 <tusho> and I have audacity and ableton live on here, but only the trial, so I just fool about with it
00:20:39 <oklopol> and a synthesizer and two digital pianos
00:20:49 <tusho> however, i have an awesome music generator in my head
00:20:54 <tusho> i can just turn it on and it plays out anythiing for me
00:21:06 <tusho> i have all music that I can remember, exactly as I remember it
00:21:13 <tusho> and it'll also generate random songs in any genre I wish
00:21:26 <oklopol> i can do that too, useful for composing
00:21:53 <tusho> oklopol: yeah if only i had real musical talent or knowledge of anything musical I could let everyone else hear it :P
00:22:05 <tusho> because really, they're damn good songs. it just isn't very useful if I'm the only one who can hear them.
00:22:13 <tusho> because the audio in my head isn't as good as the audio in my ears
00:28:15 <oklopol> tusho: for a simple solution, i suggest learning to sing
00:28:23 <tusho> oklopol: but ... i'm 12
00:28:30 <tusho> i sound like a dolphin on helium
00:29:03 <oklopol> i'm not saying you should learn to sing so you can sing your songs to others
00:29:13 <oklopol> but you can sing them so you can write them down
00:29:32 <tusho> oklopol: doesn't help me with any instruments
00:29:41 <tusho> besides, my brain just usually fakes singing
00:29:48 <tusho> it just SOUNDS like vocals :P
00:30:18 <oklopol> just saying singing/humming is the easiest way to get melodies out of the brain
00:30:24 <oklopol> in case that's what you wanna do
00:30:41 <tusho> i'm quite happy with them being in my brain
00:30:44 <oklopol> actual instruments need practise of course, so you'd actually have to do something
00:30:46 <tusho> I'd just like a way to transfer them out
00:31:33 <oklopol> well, you could learn an intuition about intervals, that's something you should do young, if you ever wanna learn it, in fact
00:31:50 <oklopol> hear the relative difference of two notes, that is
00:31:50 <augur> well tusho's young so he's good to go
00:32:11 <augur> oh how it all fits together...
00:32:30 <augur> who saw BSG last night?
00:32:31 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure he'd have trouble getting an absolute hearing for notes
00:32:57 <oklopol> i started @ 7 or something
00:33:00 <augur> i'll be honest, i dont think its impossible for anyone at any age to learn things like that, i just think it depends on how much time you put into it
00:33:17 <augur> 7 year olds dont have lives, so they can spend hours on these things
00:33:31 <tusho> augur: i don't have a life either
00:33:33 <oklopol> yeah, but that is one of the things people say can only be learned young
00:33:45 <augur> well i dont trust people
00:33:46 <oklopol> in order to achieve perfection
00:33:47 <tusho> oklopol: well, I can hear very well.
00:33:56 <oklopol> me neither, but it's clear there's truth in it.
00:34:05 <augur> i dont know oklopol
00:34:18 <tusho> of course the problem is getting motivated enough to do all this before I do get too old :p
00:34:21 <augur> i mean, when you compare how much time a child puts into learning something like that, vs an adult
00:34:30 <augur> and compare the rest of the contents of their lives
00:34:40 <augur> ofcourse a child will learn it better
00:34:43 <oklopol> if an adult wants to learn something, probably more than any child would.
00:34:52 <oklopol> children just learn certain things faster
00:35:08 <augur> i dont know. i'd really need to see some proper studies, and i dont know if any have been done
00:35:40 <oklopol> well, i don't know about studies, just personal experience and hearsay
00:36:00 <oklopol> well, i'm pretty sure i've seen studies
00:36:05 <oklopol> but i don't recall details
00:37:46 <oklopol> tusho: let's hope you won't, at least i can get a career @ music or linguistics once you revolutionize programming to the level anyone can achieve the exact same results
00:38:18 <oklopol> well, i guess plain english already did that!
00:38:23 <tusho> i think i'll do music, linguistics and programming
00:38:25 <tusho> just to piss off oklopol
00:39:14 <tusho> oklopol: there's your career tthen
00:40:35 <augur> im a linguistics major
00:40:46 <augur> oklopol, we were made for one another :O
00:40:49 <tusho> augur: you're even more of a perfect match!!!!!!!!
00:41:04 <augur> ZOMG LETS GET MARRIED
00:41:31 <augur> actually the marriage will have to wait, im going to eat calzone :d
00:41:50 <oklopol> okay, see you in 15 minutes
00:44:24 <tusho> oklopol: my js2cps will be so awesome
00:44:47 <tusho> you could have a silly javascript game
00:44:53 <tusho> and implement savegames just by saving a continuation
00:47:31 <tusho> oklopol: oh, and feathejs is just awesome in many ways
00:47:38 <tusho> oklopol: like, because js2cps is written in javascript itself
00:47:51 <tusho> then, it downloads (via ajax) all the feathejs files
00:48:00 <tusho> then, it runs them through js2cps (in the browser, remember, all of this)
00:48:03 <tusho> then, it eval()s them
00:54:46 <tusho> oklopol: can you remind me of a line that I'm about to say tomorrow plzz0r
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01:02:10 <tusho> augur: i am too lazy to keep a todo list
01:04:27 <tusho> / We're using setTimeout(func, 0) to avoid the stack now
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01:12:52 <tusho> Andrew cooke wiped his website!
01:12:55 <tusho> No more malbolge thingy!!
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01:18:04 <tusho> i sent him an email
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03:15:01 <augur> doctor who almost made me cry :(
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03:19:33 <tusho> oklopol! another thing to remind me tomroorw
03:19:49 <tusho> aptana jaxer is awesome
03:20:38 <tusho> YOU CANT HIDE FROM ME
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09:39:38 <GregorR> I wrote a JIT MIPS->JavaScript compiler (in JavaScript) ... does that make me a bad person? D-8
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15:39:00 * Hiato calls to those alive for an indication of the stipulated status
15:43:54 -!- tusho has joined.
15:44:00 <Hiato> Translation: anyone alive?
15:44:21 <Hiato> tusho, say it is so
15:44:37 <Hiato> now, how to bully you into helping me with my esolang
15:45:49 <tusho> hey, andrew cooke replied to my email about broken links
15:46:04 <tusho> .. and he edited the esolangs wiki to fix the link
15:46:34 <Hiato> hoora, well, essentially, uou can find the interpreter here: http://www.rafb.net/p/8SUm5T69.html
15:46:46 <Hiato> tusho: I take it this is a good thing
15:46:55 <tusho> Hiato: yes, andrew cooke wrote the first malbolge program
15:47:09 <Hiato> I don't think it needs much explanation, it should all be evident from the interp.
15:47:20 <pikhq> And for that, I congratulate him.
15:47:26 <tusho> Hiato: well. could i have a brief explanation? :P
15:47:27 <Hiato> wow, that man is a hero amongst men
15:47:58 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Malbolge&diff=prev&oldid=11845 and http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Malbolge&diff=next&oldid=11845
15:48:06 <tusho> 86.137.231.14, we salute you!
15:49:49 <Hiato> heh :) well, essentially, I thought: how to eliminate the need for the [ and ] equivalent constructions in a language, and it hit me: what if you repeated apply the entire code over and over again. so essentially there are two commands here: 1xy and 0z. If it is 1xy, where x and why {0;1} then while the data string index matches x write why to the end, increase the index. once this is false, increase the code index and reset the data string
15:50:24 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
15:50:33 <Hiato> say it isn't so...
15:50:44 <tusho> i mean, it's not quite that
15:50:46 <tusho> but it's close enough
15:50:49 <tusho> and yes, BCT is TC
15:51:24 <Hiato> well, I'm not sure mine is, it doesn't seem subtraction is possible... ffs
15:51:30 <Hiato> I thought I had something :/
15:51:39 <tusho> Hiato: well the fact that you came up with it independently..
15:52:06 <Hiato> however, much like the competitor of A G Bell...
15:52:28 <Hiato> oh well, nothing lost nothing gained I suppose
15:54:16 <tusho> MISTER AIS523! You just sent email to Agora. You can't hide :P
15:54:43 <Hiato> 1111101110100 and 10 was Fibonacci:
15:54:46 <Hiato> 0 -> 111111110000011111
15:54:48 <Hiato> and 1101111110100 and 1 was powers of two
15:54:57 <Hiato> heh, tusho: he isn't here ;)
15:55:03 <tusho> Hiato: he logreads
15:55:11 <Hiato> oh, right you are :)
15:56:20 <Hiato> oh my, reading the BCT spec, one of my pre-versions is identical... :P
15:57:26 <Hiato> hmm, I don't get this
15:57:26 <Hiato> 0 if the leftmost data-bit is 1, append 0 10
15:57:26 <Hiato> 1 if the leftmost data-bit is 1, append 1 11
15:57:40 <Hiato> surely all 1x does is appends the x to the end if leftmost==1?
15:58:11 * Hiato wonders if log-spamming is punishable
15:58:52 <tusho> Hiato: remember, there are two pointers
15:59:00 * Hiato breathes a deep sigh of relief
15:59:06 <Hiato> yeah, I was being stupid
15:59:50 <tusho> HAHAAHA, I would paste this here but it's too big. #esoteric-blah anyone?
16:01:20 <tusho> 01:39:38 <GregorR> I wrote a JIT MIPS->JavaScript compiler (in JavaScript) ... does that make me a bad person? D-8
16:01:59 <tusho> 07:27:25 --- quit: ais523 ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"")
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16:47:40 * Hiato ponders the laws of the universe. Specifically those relating to the proportionality of effort to making something cool and the difficulty setting for coming up with a revolutionary idea - why must it be set to "Delta"?
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16:48:25 <deveah> gosh, I think I've been here before..
16:49:14 * Hiato Hiato thinks about whether he should think or not
16:49:54 <deveah> this being a chatroom where people do, you should too
16:50:05 <Hiato> and admits his jokes aren't great :P
16:50:57 <Hiato> right then, deveah: let's make an awesome esolang. Something the likes of which have never been seen before
16:51:12 <Hiato> I'm feeling a little case of "stolen thunder complex" so lets hit it
16:51:25 <ihope> And affine geometry!
16:51:35 <Hiato> deveah: most defiantly :P
16:51:49 <deveah> I'd like something to be ported on my Speccy
16:51:51 <Hiato> ihope: this is sounding curiously familiar
16:52:24 <deveah> Opera IRC looks better than I imagined.
16:53:09 <Hiato> is it better than Pidgin? (though I could never really leave FFX3)
16:53:35 <deveah> first, I'd like someone to explain what is and how does lambda calculus work?
16:53:44 <tusho> Hiato: pidgin is the worst irc client ever
16:53:55 <tusho> deveah: the programming language before programming languages
16:53:58 <deveah> Pidgin eats around 18 mb of memory. Miranda eats 8, Yahoo! 50
16:54:02 <tusho> and, uh, beta-reduction and alpha-conversion and stuff
16:54:08 <ihope> Good ol' lambda calculus. It's fun. :-)
16:54:08 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus
16:54:11 <Hiato> tusho: maybe, but it is part of an otherwise godly multi-protocol package in my view
16:54:29 <deveah> yes, but I'm too young to understand what's there
16:54:38 <Hiato> let's not start a war here though :P
16:54:44 <ihope> Every value is a function; this function takes a function and returns a function. It can simply return its argument, or return a value that has nothing to do with its argument, or it can apply other functions to each other and return the result.
16:54:49 <Hiato> and I agree with deveah
16:55:19 <deveah> okay, I think I understand
16:55:19 <Hiato> to understand the page in question
16:55:41 <tusho> deveah: hey, I'm the youngest person here and I understand most of that :P
16:55:46 <tusho> nothing to do with age but yes the page is pretty dense
16:55:50 <Hiato> makes one of you deveah ;)
16:55:51 <tusho> what ihope said, basically
16:55:57 <tusho> deveah: well, how old are you?
16:56:02 <Hiato> and once more, I agree with deveah
16:56:38 <Hiato> if tusho==ehird: ehird.age=17+some
16:56:46 <deveah> for the first time I meet someone who is younger than me and doesn't join random chatrooms and starts calling everybody names
16:57:02 <tusho> deveah: WE WERE MADE FOR EACH OTHER!!11!!1
16:57:03 <ihope> The syntax for a function is \x -> E, where E is some expression that might involve x. If I apply this function to an argument, I get the expression E, but with x replaced with the argument.
16:57:06 <Hiato> wait, I have proof too
16:57:18 <ihope> And I finally meet someone younger than me as well. :-)
16:57:25 <deveah> does anybody here use Basic (any kind) ?
16:57:26 <tusho> ihope: The syntax is (λx. x) :-P
16:57:40 <tusho> deveah: I imagine most of us have used some form of basic at some point.
16:57:43 <Hiato> I recall clearly talking about some bubblegum make last year which would make you about 20 years to young to have had it
16:57:57 <Hiato> and ihope: you are all younger then me, I feel... stupid :P
16:58:04 <tusho> Hiato: I don't recall :-P
16:58:05 <Hiato> deveah: does pascal count?
16:58:15 <deveah> if Pascal = Basic, yes
16:58:16 <ihope> It's some symbol, a letter, some other symbol, the expression. Could be λ and ., \ and ->, ^ and ., many other things.
16:58:25 <Hiato> well, then I'll say yeah
16:58:30 <tusho> pascal isn't basic
16:58:33 <tusho> its syntax is similar, though
16:59:18 <Hiato> PS: I'm still determined to prove tusho/ehird's age is >12 :P
16:59:30 <tusho> Hiato: what would be proof? :-P
17:00:49 <Hiato> anything non-circumstantial, say a log, in which you alluded to a fact indicative of an older generation, which also was, beyond reasonable doubt, indicative that you did not acquire the knowledge elsewhere
17:01:08 <ihope> I guess tusho's behavior is consistent with his being 12.
17:01:09 <tusho> Hiato: I mean how could I prove my age.
17:01:16 <tusho> ihope: Oh thanks. :_P
17:01:34 <Hiato> tusho: it's beyond me, but I'm determined ;)
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17:01:48 <ihope> Let me rephrase that to not seem insulting. Tusho's being 12 is consistent with his behavior. :-)
17:02:08 <Hiato> still the hint of arrogance ;)
17:02:19 <Hiato> ihope,what be your age?
17:02:20 <deveah> I remember now... I was hare on #freebasic!
17:02:27 <ihope> Now it seems to be lunchtime. See y'some later.
17:02:30 <Slereah_> Like "Tusho's being 12 is consistent with the size of his dick"
17:02:30 <tusho> Hiato: ihope is 15
17:02:40 <ihope> Hiato: guess. Or what tusho said. :-P
17:02:44 <deveah> ha! he's too old for us!
17:02:47 <Hiato> wow, I am mentally deprived :P
17:03:10 <tusho> Hiato: how old are you anyway? :P
17:03:25 <augur> what is it with all you being children?!
17:03:41 <Hiato> augur, what is your number?
17:04:04 <Hiato> *cough* better than 12 *cough* :P
17:04:32 <tusho> I'm like 10x better rite
17:04:53 <deveah> well, it's known that most Romanian people are very smart, so are any of you Romanian?
17:05:07 <tusho> that sounds like crap to me :p
17:05:07 <Hiato> oh, yeah, sure... you'll have to wait until your older to understand that :)
17:05:21 <tusho> Hiato: shush I was being silly
17:05:22 <Hiato> deveah: I have to agree with tusho
17:05:37 <Hiato> Slereah_ : hush :P
17:05:38 <tusho> i'll be legal in japan in august
17:05:42 <augur> tusho is compeletely illegal
17:05:43 <tusho> very useful knowledge I know
17:05:52 <Hiato> wow, that is not sickening in the slightes tusho
17:05:54 <augur> tusho, wanna go to holland? XD
17:06:10 <tusho> Hiato: japan has _slightly_ crazy age of consent
17:06:15 <tusho> deveah: anyway I'm british
17:06:32 <augur> age of consent in the US varies from like
17:06:47 <Hiato> so then where did the brains come from, humour I get, but brains? :P
17:06:49 <augur> depend on place and sexuality
17:06:54 <augur> and sex in general
17:07:02 <tusho> Hiato: i'm actually a robot.
17:07:05 <augur> in some states, guys can fuck before girls
17:07:23 <Hiato> in SA it's 16 for straight sex (or lesbos), but for man on man it's 19, and men can't be raped either
17:08:04 <tusho> Hiato: i like how only gay _men_ get a delay
17:08:06 <deveah> can we talk about esoteric programming languages, and things that make our brains hurt?
17:08:09 <augur> im gonna have to rape^B^B^B^B find some south african boys
17:08:19 <tusho> deveah: #esoteric is like this often...
17:08:20 <Hiato> thank god I'm not of this nationality :P
17:08:28 <tusho> mention something related to esolangs and it'll probably die out.
17:08:36 <tusho> unless augur isn't interested :P
17:08:39 <deveah> at least you're not musicians
17:08:46 <Hiato> yeah, this is our creative break
17:08:52 <augur> OH let me tell you about some ideas for music i have
17:08:58 <deveah> musicians are like OMG YOU WANTZ A BIG BIIIG BUKKAKE ICECREMA PIE?
17:09:02 <augur> wheres oklopol, he could play some stuff
17:09:12 <augur> bukkake ice cream pie sounds good, i agree
17:09:20 <tusho> deveah: that sounds like #esoteric when bsmntbombdood, augur and oklopol are all in here
17:09:28 <tusho> anyway, ehm, esoteric programming languages.
17:09:42 -!- Corun has joined.
17:09:49 <deveah> go to #Renoise in irc.esper.net and join the bukkake fun
17:10:14 <deveah> how is it that noone is an op here?
17:10:20 <Hiato> lets see, I was walking the Malbolge when the BF jumped out and fondled my Ping-Pong and did the Back-Flip before it totally Befunged me
17:10:21 <tusho> deveah: why should they be?
17:10:21 <deveah> or doesn't Opera see ops?
17:10:32 <tusho> it's freenode policy, anyway - ops should only be ops when they're doing op duties
17:10:34 <augur> deveah, have you been on freenode much?
17:10:49 <augur> that explains it ;)
17:10:55 <deveah> just on #freebasic sometimes
17:11:19 <deveah> well on Quakenet, on #rgrd there are always 25 ops in the room
17:11:39 <tusho> deveah: and this is why quakenet is full of trolls and flaming and op circlejerks.
17:11:43 <augur> why are all the esolangs so boring? :(
17:12:05 <tusho> augur: 'cause people like brainfuck too much
17:12:11 <Slereah_> "Communicating and mobile systems : the pi calculus"
17:12:46 <augur> deveah, how old are you again?
17:13:01 <augur> hiato you were 17 right?
17:13:10 <deveah> i was wondering - are esoteric languages, roguelike development and chiptune tracking a normal hobby for a 13-yr-old?
17:13:12 <Hiato> rounding up to july
17:13:20 <augur> so im guessing neither of you know terribly much of compsci
17:13:52 <tusho> deveah: 13 year old, no. 13 year old nerd, yes. :P
17:14:04 <deveah> when I was 6, I was making some small demos on my Speccy
17:14:11 <deveah> moving dots, scrolling text
17:14:15 <Hiato> can you lift your weight in code tusho?
17:15:50 <Hiato> deveah, when I was six I stuck my finger in the typewriter-printer, needless to say I wasn't too fond of gizmo's for a while
17:15:54 <deveah> 48kb of memory is a lot!
17:16:11 <Hiato> Now, that is what you call a fabrication, much like tusho's age
17:16:13 <augur> deveah, hiato, http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
17:16:25 <tusho> Hiato: shut up you
17:17:19 <Hiato> heh, augur: lis? you've outdone yourself? what about ado? :P
17:17:50 <Slereah_> No, we don't need further ado.
17:17:53 * Hiato declares tpyo evneign ofifcialyl opne
17:18:03 <deveah> Ancient Domains Of Mistery
17:18:25 <augur> you kids these days with your crazy "acronyms"
17:18:42 <Hiato> it is, in fact, a language :P
17:18:43 <tusho> augur: adom is ancient!
17:18:57 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Domains_of_Mystery
17:18:57 <Hiato> and I must agree with tusho
17:19:02 <Hiato> well, tusho, what isn't ;)
17:19:02 <deveah> ADOM is a nice roguelike, but I got bored of it soon
17:19:12 <augur> i don't play video games, i'm more nerdy than that.
17:19:40 <Hiato> auagur: wow, well... i'm...err... an alcoholic! Ha!
17:19:40 <deveah> DoomRL is better than ADOM
17:19:44 <augur> my recreation is reading books on theoretical syntax. :P
17:20:03 <tusho> 'books'? 'what are they'?
17:20:15 <tusho> deveah: uh what. what are you talking about
17:20:17 <augur> why would you put the question in quotes?
17:20:18 <tusho> it sounds dangerous
17:20:20 <augur> that makes no sense, tusho.
17:20:24 <tusho> augur: I was fake-quoting Hiato
17:20:41 <augur> if that were so, the question marks should've alo been in the quotes.
17:20:44 <Hiato> even though I didn't actually say that
17:20:50 <Hiato> quote me as being misquoted ;)
17:20:54 <deveah> tusho - I sometimes, when I;m free, I go out and walk
17:21:06 <tusho> deveah: how many lives did you lose?!
17:21:09 <Hiato> you have legs? Where'd you get them?
17:21:18 <tusho> was the boss difficult?
17:21:25 <Hiato> (darn, beaten by tusho)
17:21:28 <augur> hiato: you dont have lets? awesome, cant run away. bwahaha
17:21:49 <tusho> esoteic lets are better than esoteric legs
17:22:10 <Hiato> (6:20:55 PM) ***Hiato declares tpyo evneign ofifcialyl opne
17:22:16 <deveah> okay, why don't we all think and make the mother of all esoteric languages?
17:22:27 <deveah> something more complicated than Malbolge
17:22:27 <tusho> deveah: that's called MIN
17:22:29 <augur> did i tell you about my esolang that i invented the other day?
17:22:36 <Hiato> deveah: I'm sure we were just here
17:22:39 <Hiato> well, here's an idea
17:22:52 <tusho> writing something more complex than malbolge is easy
17:22:59 <tusho> writing something significantly simpler, or _different_ is the challenge
17:23:18 <Hiato> the language has arbitrary symbolisition, so you can't code anything that isn't part of the syntax, eg:
17:23:20 <Hiato> afkljapdfj == display 1
17:23:20 <Hiato> askldfjaspfj924 = display 2
17:23:20 <Hiato> sorry, you can't display three
17:23:39 <Hiato> that would be... fun?
17:23:40 <tusho> deveah: I think you'd like Thue
17:23:40 <augur> writing something that's esoteric in the sense of being completely _different_ and yet beautifully usable, is an even better challenge. :P
17:23:47 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue
17:24:18 <augur> thue is just a post production system
17:24:19 <Hiato> so is ACRONYM </shamless plug>
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17:25:52 <deveah> Thue is easy compaing to what I'd like to make
17:26:01 <Hiato> Oklopol: how old is tusho?
17:26:10 <augur> oklopol is 12, this is well known.
17:26:18 <augur> you can see it in is maturity
17:26:21 <augur> or rather, lack thereof
17:26:23 <tusho> oklopol knows I'm 12
17:26:28 <tusho> he's known since like 2007
17:26:46 <oklopol> it was quite a crush, as i'd thought you were 17
17:26:48 <Hiato> oklopol, let me say, you are not 11 :P
17:26:58 <Hiato> and tusho is not 12! :P
17:27:02 <tusho> YES I AM DAMNIT Hiato
17:27:04 <oklopol> tusho: You're using setTimeout(func, 0) to avoid the stack now
17:27:07 <tusho> What do I have to do to prove it! :P
17:27:18 <tusho> what about the second reminder that you weren't there to see
17:27:30 <Hiato> tusho: heh, good luck ;) for me to know and you to find ouy
17:27:42 <tusho> Hiato: I could record a sampe of my voice.
17:27:47 <augur> that makes me love oklopol so much more
17:28:11 <Hiato> I feel better knowing that oklopol is smarter AND older... phew
17:28:15 <Slereah_> The second page of the book is just a gigantic "pi"
17:28:29 <tusho> Slereah_: what about the third page
17:29:31 <Slereah_> tusho : "Communicating and mobile systems : the pi calculus \n ROBIN MILNER \n Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge"
17:29:56 <oklopol> tusho wasn't that awesome when he first came here, a pretty normal prodigy
17:29:56 <oklopol> it's just exposure to esoteric makes you awesome
17:30:07 <oklopol> i thought it was "a line", since you said so
17:30:09 <augur> oklopol, we need to formalize the grammar of our language
17:30:16 <tusho> deveah: that's because you like basic
17:30:18 <tusho> ergo your opinion sucks
17:30:26 <tusho> where did that { come from
17:30:29 <Hiato> and I disgaree entirely
17:30:35 <Slereah_> Actually,, I often use 10 in C.
17:30:37 <Hiato> deveah, I'm with you ;)
17:30:40 <deveah> i prefer Basic and PHP
17:30:46 <Hiato> and tusho: no under 13's allowed :P
17:30:49 <oklopol> augur: need to watch an episode of dark angel now
17:30:52 <Slereah_> But that's because I don't like character types.
17:30:59 <oklopol> perhaps later at some point
17:31:48 <augur> whereby queen you mean your girlfriend?
17:31:50 <Slereah_> augur only obeys to the queer, oklopol
17:32:16 <augur> slereah, in those circles, we're ALL queens.. ;D
17:32:53 <Slereah_> I won't even ask you what's that circle you're talking about.
17:33:05 <augur> oklopol, im trying to think of ways in which your tuple semantics could be worked into the language
17:33:24 <deveah> Slereah_ : The Inner Circle, a secret society
17:33:38 <augur> no, just gay circles.
17:34:01 <augur> slereah is french, tho, and i dont think french gays use the term "queen" like american gays do
17:34:40 <deveah> ah, I got a 9 at French this semestre
17:35:22 <augur> french numbers above 60 are fun
17:35:38 <augur> 60, 60 and 10, 4 20's, 4 20's and 10
17:36:11 <augur> im surprised slereah hasnt tried to use something like that in an esolang yet
17:36:13 <Slereah_> augur : I speak English and all, remember!
17:36:36 <augur> yeah, but that doesnt mean you know the detailed use of all the words in english :P
17:36:53 <deveah> theoretically, every latin language is underatandable by latin speakers
17:37:58 <augur> it has to be a corrector bot that messes up and corrects it to the wrong thing
17:38:08 <oklopol> well it may fail occasionally, and correct right
17:39:08 <Hiato> which I believe to be correct
17:40:07 <Slereah_> augur : I despise the Plain English language
17:40:18 <Slereah_> So why would I like Plain French!
17:40:37 <deveah> nobody likes hungarian language :D
17:40:57 <augur> hungarian is very closely related to finnish
17:41:12 <Hiato> I was under the impression that finnish was unrealetd
17:41:23 <Hiato> except phonetically to an asian languge
17:41:28 <deveah> well, if they liked it they wouldn't come in Romania and demand Transilvania
17:41:30 <augur> finnish is related to sami/lapp
17:41:46 <augur> finnish, sami/lapp, and hungarian form the finno-ugric language family
17:42:06 <augur> part of the larger uralic language family
17:42:21 <tusho> I still want to write a lojban compiler.
17:42:24 <deveah> isn't finnish language called suomi?
17:42:27 <tusho> WITH OKLOPOL BECAUSE HE KNOWS LOJBAN AND I DON'T
17:42:33 <augur> along with estonian, and some other less spoken languages
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17:42:43 <Hiato> and what might it compile into?
17:42:48 <augur> finnish is called suomi in finnish, sure
17:43:10 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fenno-Ugrian_people.png
17:43:21 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Uralic-Yukaghir.png
17:43:22 <tusho> Hiato: uh, C or something I guess
17:43:27 <tusho> oklopol: it'd be awesome wouldn't it
17:43:40 <augur> completely unusable.
17:44:03 <augur> i mean, you'd have nothing to compile into
17:44:07 <augur> you say you'd compile into c
17:44:11 <augur> but thats not what i mean
17:44:14 <Hiato> my point precisely
17:44:20 <augur> what constructs would you compile into?
17:44:27 <tusho> augur: um, regular programming language ones
17:44:39 <tusho> and have an stdlib so that you can say things like 'print "hi" 5 times' (in lojban of course)
17:44:44 <augur> no, because regular programming languages dont use the same constructs as natural languages.
17:44:46 <tusho> it'd just be easier in lojban since there's a yacc parser for it
17:44:52 <Hiato> as in, what if the sentence was: I am thinking of a number, that is bigger than my dog is wide
17:45:03 <tusho> Hiato: it'd error out because you didn't define any of that :P
17:45:14 <augur> but its defined IN LOJBAN
17:45:33 <tusho> 'All C is ASCII' != 'All ASCII is C'
17:45:35 <Hiato> you can't write a C interpreter in C
17:45:44 <Hiato> but it wouldn't do you good
17:45:53 <augur> you're not programming IN LOJBAN unless you're using the semantics of Lojban
17:46:29 <Hiato> augur: give up, he's lost to the conlang side now... he would've been such a good esolanger...
17:46:45 <tusho> I guess this is a case of "Well, I guess you'll have to wait until I write it."
17:47:06 <Hiato> and make it prove your age
17:47:08 <augur> hiato: slereah and i come from #isharia as well, and oklopol might as well too but doesnt.
17:47:39 <augur> the irc channel for the ZBB.
17:47:53 <augur> ZBB being the biggest conlanging forum on the interspheres
17:48:05 <Hiato> oh, right, heh I just got my membership there frommark rose, or what's his name
17:48:27 <tusho> is this one of those SUPER SEKRIT boards
17:48:33 <tusho> that needs 3 invites stamped and dated
17:48:37 <Hiato> not in the lsightest
17:48:37 <augur> stealth jews are invisible to radar
17:49:01 <tusho> Hiato: I just responded to 'got my membership there'
17:49:03 <augur> or atleast they look like a flock of pidgeons.
17:49:18 <augur> tusho: you just need a manual confirmation
17:49:25 <Hiato> not sure why you'd want that though, I wanna be picked up on radar, as I'm sure I am: Israeli+Jewish+Floats around web
17:49:33 <Hiato> tushO: as in you have to email them :)
17:49:45 <augur> hiato: you're not a STEALTH jew tho
17:50:03 <Hiato> that's my point, not sure why one would do that :P
17:50:05 <augur> stealth jews are coated in a special radar absorbent form of latka
17:50:24 <Hiato> lol, I take it you're jewish
17:50:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:50:32 <augur> no but my stepfather was
17:50:33 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
17:50:38 <Hiato> otherwise you've been to many sedars
17:50:45 <augur> and my family is german, which means the cultures intersect alot
17:50:49 -!- oklopol has joined.
17:50:50 <Hiato> oh, right, the latka was a kind of obvious indicator :)
17:51:09 <Hiato> intersect or dissect? :P Wait, I shouldn't go there
17:51:45 <Hiato> brei? as in brite? the stuff with matzah and egss?
17:51:58 <Hiato> must be, then yeah - it's the shiznet :P
17:52:03 <augur> if thats how you say in iwhere you're from sure
17:52:23 <augur> you israelis, pretending to be german
17:52:40 <Hiato> Israel, yep, that's how. Maar, ek het al lank in Suid-Afrika gewoon
17:52:41 <deveah> again, let's talk about esoteric languages
17:52:58 <augur> hebrew is an esolang
17:53:17 <deveah> yes, that's the main function in it
17:53:20 <augur> eyah thats in hebrew kthx
17:53:33 <augur> did you know that ALL the afro-asiatic languages, hebrew, arabic, ge'ez, etc.
17:53:43 <deveah> it's sort of substract-and-branch-if-negative
17:53:48 <augur> ALL of them share a peculiar feature of their inflectional morphology?
17:53:52 <Hiato> (hebrew and arabic being semitic)
17:54:05 <augur> semitic being afroasiatic :P
17:54:33 <tusho> deveah: interesting
17:54:35 <Hiato> in SA we just discovered electricity, so go easy :P
17:54:36 <augur> including ancient egyptian, berber, chadic, cushitic, etc.
17:54:54 <augur> they all share this ONE particular inflectional quirk in like.. feminine singular's
17:55:04 <deveah> Hiato - do you have OLPCs ?
17:55:10 <Hiato> hrmm... interesting that
17:55:18 <Hiato> deveah: nope, can't afford them :P
17:55:19 <augur> and its the /exact/ /same/ /pattern/ in all of the afroasiatic languages
17:55:25 <augur> not the same FORM, mind you, but the same pattern
17:55:48 <deveah> they're 100 euros, wtf dude!
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17:55:59 <augur> like.. second person feminine singular always is uninflected, and third person feminine singular is inflected like some masculine form
17:56:02 <augur> or something weird like that
17:56:06 <Hiato> wow, well, that makes you wonder about the root of all languages (except finnish which I maintain is unique [excluding dialects])
17:56:06 -!- oklopol has joined.
17:56:16 <augur> regardless of what the inflections actually look like, that pattern is always there
17:56:23 <Hiato> deveah: as a government, that is ;)
17:56:35 <augur> hiato: finnish and hungarian have clear shared lineage :P
17:56:49 <Hiato> meh... blah blah blah
17:57:49 <Hiato> as would I, as I'm sure I will when I get to the USA on the 20th for GYLC </boast>
17:59:01 <Hiato> the above was a necessary boast because tusho is 12 and he's smarter :P
17:59:09 <augur> hungarian: Jég alatt télen eleven halak uszkálnak.
17:59:16 <augur> Jään alla talvella elävät kalat uiskentelevat.
18:00:05 <Hiato> anyway, supper now, brb
18:00:07 <augur> what it means is irrelevant, it should be clear by the form that they're practically identical
18:01:03 <deveah> because there's always a conflict between Romania and hungary
18:01:22 <tusho> deveah: and you subscribe to it personally because...?
18:02:01 <tusho> deveah: and you subscribe to it personally because...?
18:02:13 -!- oklofok has joined.
18:02:17 <deveah> it's quite simple: they want Transilvania, we don't give them anything
18:02:59 <tusho> deveah: ok, and this makes you hate the hungarian language because?
18:03:03 <tusho> instead of just the international relations.
18:03:09 <Slereah_> The first example of a communicating system is a vending machine.
18:03:25 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:03:28 <deveah> because it's hungarian
18:04:03 <tusho> deveah: sounds brainwashy to me!
18:04:11 <tusho> Hungarian's international relations with Romania suck
18:04:18 <tusho> --> Therefore, everything Hungarian pisses you off and is bad.
18:04:29 <deveah> they don't exist I think
18:04:49 <tusho> deveah: "don't exist"?
18:05:38 <deveah> well they're very weak, and some parties in Romania (two that I can think of) are against anything hungarian
18:06:05 <tusho> deveah: I'd like to see some evidence that everything that is Hungarian is weak.
18:06:16 <tusho> And, uh, you rely on political parties to shape your views on everyday things? Okayyyy...
18:06:37 <deveah> OTOH, hungarians in Transilvania have quite many newspapers (>8) that speak of how hunagarians are treated on _their_ land...
18:07:26 <deveah> I didn't say that everything hungarian is weak - Romanians don't like hungarians as a nation
18:07:59 <deveah> anyway, let's change the subject
18:08:08 <tusho> deveah: Romanians don't? What, every single romanian thinks exactly the same because the inter-country relations are bad?
18:08:17 <tusho> I just think you're having a severe logic failure.
18:08:59 <deveah> what's clear is that good relations between our countries never existed...
18:09:17 <tusho> never disputed that; I'm just saying that that's not a reason to dislike hungary/hungarian things
18:10:28 <deveah> hungary makes good pickles after all
18:12:24 <deveah> what are the basic instructions on a RISC?
18:13:38 <deveah> what are OISCs used for?
18:15:01 <Slereah_> RISC can still have a fuckload of instructions, though.
18:15:20 <Slereah_> Most regular languages have, when compared to esolangs
18:17:25 <deveah> seriously, do OISCs have a use or they just exist?
18:17:46 <augur> you can make a simple CPU with them
18:17:49 <augur> but whats the point?
18:17:57 <augur> theyre harder to work with
18:18:05 <deveah> yes, what's the point?
18:18:29 <augur> they just exist, deveah.
18:18:34 <augur> noone uses them for anything serious.
18:19:22 <lament> otherwise we wouldn't talk about them.
18:19:26 <deveah> i'd like to see a roguelike on OISCs
18:19:29 <tusho> deveah: this is #esoteric
18:19:35 <tusho> does malbolge have a use?
18:20:01 <Slereah_> "I know the hardest language there is!"
18:20:15 <deveah> all esoteric languages, are by definition, languages to test the extremes of programming
18:20:23 <tusho> deveah: One instruction is pretty extreme
18:20:26 <tusho> but no, not all of them are
18:20:28 <Slereah_> You don't have to say that you don't know how to program in it.
18:20:46 <Slereah_> Turing tarpits and theoretical languages are.
18:20:50 <tusho> Slereah_: yes, that's about it
18:21:10 <Slereah_> The rest is joke languages and theme languages
18:21:18 <tusho> Slereah_: And interesting ones.
18:21:37 <Slereah_> Doesn't INTERCAL have a minuscule instruction set?
18:22:00 <Slereah_> I can only remember 5 operators right now.
18:22:25 <tusho> It's reasonably sized
18:22:36 <tusho> & ais523 actually quite likes it, in a non-esoteric sense
18:22:48 <tusho> apart from its string handling and some of its quirks
18:22:58 -!- olsner has joined.
18:22:58 <tusho> Slereah_: like, i dunno, C-INTERCAL has like 30 commands
18:23:03 <tusho> and the quoting rules are comprehensive
18:23:43 <deveah> theoretically, 3 - (-3) = 6, so OISCs can add, too
18:24:21 <tusho> deveah: 'theoretically'?
18:24:24 <tusho> more like 'in practice'lly
18:24:47 <deveah> theoretically, if OISC support negative numbers
18:25:11 <tusho> deveah: some of them do
18:25:19 <tusho> people have written OISC interps in OISCs
18:26:01 <deveah> music without any resampling sure sounds a lot different
18:26:37 <oklofok> deveah: isn't finnish language called suomi? <<< suomi is finnish for finland / finnish
18:27:18 <tusho> oklofok: you, me, lojban compiler
18:27:20 <deveah> i know, but i've heard some people talk in english with "suomi", and they weren't finnish
18:27:38 <augur> deveah: thats people being stupid
18:27:46 <augur> like white people pronouncing spanish names with spanish accents
18:30:02 <olsner> which is about as stupid as white people attempting to pronounce spanish names in english :)
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18:30:39 <olsner> "white" is unfortunate though; it's really native tongue rather than physical attributes that matters
18:33:01 <oklofok> oiscs aren't harder to work with, if the assembly lets you make procedures of some sort
18:33:05 <oklofok> and usually you can at least make something like macros easily
18:35:08 <oklofok> well, i will have to learn to use yacc.
18:35:34 <tusho> we can just translate that into a python parser generator
18:35:39 <tusho> [there's a yacc-similar i think]
18:36:19 <oklofok> or parse lojban myself, sounds better of course
18:36:40 <tusho> anyway, 'MYSELF'? YOU ABANDON ME SO SOON
18:36:41 <oklofok> the easy way is for noobs and sane people
18:36:51 <tusho> oklofok: parsing is kinda boring for this
18:36:55 <tusho> I mean everyone knows how to parse lojban.
18:37:04 <tusho> The actual compilation will be far funner
18:37:47 <olsner> I don't know how to parse lojban
18:38:02 <olsner> (but show me the grammar and I can!)
18:38:22 <oklofok> i can parse it without hands.
18:38:34 <tusho> oklofok: anyway I will start work on that when I stop playing around with django
18:40:48 <augur> ok im out guys. see ya.
18:41:06 <tusho> oklofok: it's a python web framework and it'll totally fluffy
18:41:10 <tusho> it generates an admin interface for you!
18:41:25 <tusho> if you give it a regular database model and plug in a few values,
18:41:37 <tusho> it'll let you search, browse by date, view in a table, edit in a nice interface
18:41:42 <tusho> filter with a sidebar, ..
18:42:37 <lament> how tremendously boring
18:43:07 * deveah is now playing TES4: Oblivion: Shivering Isles
18:43:11 <tusho> but nice and efficient
18:43:14 -!- deveah has changed nick to deveah|tes4.
18:43:20 <lament> your mom is nice and efficient
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18:43:43 <tusho> that wasn't that good
18:43:50 <tusho> hotidlerchick just went without oklofok
18:43:55 <tusho> and hotidlerchick is not using oklofok's irc client
18:44:04 <tusho> oklofok: you can't fool us even so!
18:48:45 -!- hotidlerchick has joined.
18:50:53 <pikhq> Well, I'm not getting sent to USENIX. . .
18:51:06 <pikhq> But I *am* getting sent to the Red Hat Summit. . .
18:51:11 <pikhq> And getting paid for the privelege.
18:52:13 <tusho> hotidlerchick: ARE YOU OKLOPOL
18:52:23 <tusho> pikhq: Red Hat! Woopie! :P
18:52:37 <tusho> yes, hotidlerchick = oklopol, but on a different client
18:52:47 <tusho> and apprently he makes his client fiddle about every now and then to fool us!
18:52:53 <tusho> hotidlerchick: i thought you said you were leaving ->
18:53:07 <pikhq> tusho: Hey, getting paid for it is just kinda awesome.
18:55:14 <pikhq> I might also end up getting sent to USENIX for a day.
18:56:24 <pikhq> Here's to being in Boston.
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18:59:09 <tusho> oklopol: you didn't go, then
18:59:28 <oklopol> i closed the lid for almost two minutes½!
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19:06:23 <tusho> ok, #django does not have a very high concentration of http knowledge.
19:06:33 <tusho> they claim that not wanting a / on the end of a singular resource is 'very strange'
19:08:34 <tusho> /polls/ should have an ending slash, because it's a directory containing polls
19:08:43 <tusho> /polls/42, though, shouldn't have an ending slash
19:08:47 <tusho> because it's a singular - it's one poll
19:08:55 -!- deveah|tes4 has changed nick to deveah.
19:08:57 <tusho> they are arguing for /polls/42/ which is stupid as a poll is not a collection
19:09:05 <tusho> it's an entity, a singular resource
19:09:12 <tusho> they think that this is 'VERY STARNGE LOL'
19:11:59 <lament> does this actually matter
19:12:16 <lament> if it's a directory, doesn't it work just as well without the slash?
19:16:09 <tusho> lament: the point is,
19:16:16 <tusho> if you make django route to the /-ending versiont
19:16:23 <tusho> then /polls/42 redirects to /polls/42/
19:16:24 <tusho> which is just wrong
19:16:27 <tusho> if you omit the / on the end
19:16:32 <tusho> then /polls/42 is OK, but /polls/42/ 404s
19:16:34 <tusho> instead of redirecting
19:16:49 <deveah> what's the most short in commands esolang?
19:16:52 <lament> both of those things sound good
19:16:58 <lament> depending on your preference
19:17:07 <lament> if you stick to your idea of a "singular resource"
19:17:19 <tusho> lament: no, because users are not perfect :-)
19:17:29 <tusho> it's just the _canonical urls_ which should be like that
19:17:34 <tusho> [i.e. what everything else redirects to]
19:17:46 <tusho> #django, on the other hand, say this is CRAZY TLAK while they go back to shitting out web2.0 crao.
19:17:54 <tusho> oklopol: no, iota is pretty heavy
19:17:56 <lament> next you'll be correcting users' typos for them?
19:17:58 <tusho> it requires the lambda calculus, S and K
19:18:12 <tusho> BCT is probably the most minimal
19:18:16 <tusho> 2 instructions [well, 3 to be honest]
19:18:24 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
19:18:41 <tusho> oklopol: sorry, no
19:18:45 <tusho> the semantics of those commands are too heavy
19:18:50 <tusho> in syntax, yes, iota is tiny
19:18:53 <tusho> in semantics, it's pretty big
19:19:18 <Slereah_> It's full of unstated lambda calculus
19:19:25 <Slereah_> It looks more like a cypher than functions.
19:19:50 <oklopol> i wouldn't say iota cheats in any way, it's pretty clearly two commands
19:21:05 <tusho> oklopol: that's like
19:21:10 <tusho> X - interpret the rest of the source code as perl
19:21:13 <tusho> omg!!11 one command!!
19:21:17 <tusho> and it's so featureful!
19:21:57 <oklopol> iota always does I the same way
19:21:59 <deveah> but something you can actually get something from?
19:22:34 <tusho> deveah: you could do that with bct
19:22:42 <tusho> just make the data type a binary encoding of "Hello World!"
19:24:36 <tusho> deveah: it's a big semantics heavy
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20:20:46 <GregorR> tusho: Why didn't you push yesterday?
20:30:07 <tusho> GregorR: Because it's still borken!
20:30:17 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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20:30:33 <GregorR> tusho: Sorry, I borked yours more by pushing about eight things :P
20:30:52 <tusho> GregorR: I'll just push over them when I'm done and leave you to manually merge them
20:30:52 <GregorR> (But hey, now it has a JIT and read()!)
20:31:05 <GregorR> tusho: Mercurial won't let you push if it would cause a branch.
20:31:21 <tusho> GregorR: This is why I LOOOOOOOOVE mercurial.
20:33:40 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:33:52 <GregorR> That's why I love mercurial. :notrolleyes:
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20:36:03 <Hiato> http://dblog.aldacron.net/2007/08/27/q-a-gregor-richards/ - GregorR, can I have an autograph? :P
20:36:50 <GregorR> OMG, an obscure guy who's been interviewed in an obscure blog!!! :P
20:36:55 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:37:36 <Hiato> Heh, I would still like to know if my 1L_AOI spec is passable... (however vague)
20:38:08 <tusho> GregorR: So if you love D so much, how much would you love me if I rewrote EgoBot in D? :-P
20:38:11 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:38:20 <tusho> oklopol: oi, check yer /msg'd
20:39:31 <augur> oklopol's busy jizzing on me like a freak
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20:41:14 <tusho> hotidlerchick: /msg's
20:43:04 <tusho> yes, I do, oklopol
20:44:00 <tusho> hotidlerchick: yes he is, you are oklopol
20:44:11 <augur> maybe its oklopols girlfriend!
20:44:28 <tusho> augur: its got the same ip and the ident is 'hothothothot'
20:44:36 <tusho> and oklopol keeps switching to it
20:44:47 <augur> well, that would figure if it was oklopols girlfriend who he's with at the moment?
20:45:06 <tusho> augur: no, hotidlerchick = oklopol
20:45:19 <augur> you're no fun, tusho
20:45:47 <oerjan> there are no girls on the interblag, other than lesbians, everyone knows that
20:46:41 <tusho> oerjan: i like how you used an xkcd sarcastic-term-for-the-internet while at the same time blatantly violating the xkcd that ragged on people who said there were no girls on the internet
20:46:46 <tusho> it's like 5 layers of sarcasm
20:47:23 <oerjan> oerjan, now with more levels than even HE knows
20:49:23 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
20:51:01 <tusho> hotidlerchick: YOU ARE OKLOPOL
20:51:03 <tusho> oklopol: PROVE ME WRONG
20:52:01 <augur> you proved that you were oklopol
20:52:48 <tusho> hotidlerchick: you talk exactly like oklopol
20:52:58 <tusho> now, oklopol, get yer lazy bum over to the /msg window
20:53:12 <augur> not only that but hic responds when you address oklopol! :o
20:53:35 <GregorR> tusho: Not if you preempted working on jsmips for it ;)
20:54:25 <tusho> oklopol: YOU ARE hotidlerchick
20:54:39 <GregorR> tusho: It'd be nifty if you rewrote EgoBot in D, but not if you stopped working on jsmips to rewrote EgoBot in D :P
20:55:17 <tusho> GregorR: oh, well I have like 50 projects at any given time
20:55:24 <tusho> oklopol: focus on yer /msg window, damnit
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20:55:31 <tusho> #lojban are helping me work out how the language will work, right now :P
20:55:37 <oklopol> sry, logreading took a sec :<
20:55:42 <tusho> while I get a parser workin'
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20:57:18 <oklopol> perhaps i am hotidlerchick, but i can promise i'll commit to the act well enough you can just treat her as a separate person.
20:57:32 <oklopol> there's no way to prove anything, behaviorism, people
20:57:50 <oklopol> and i would never capitalize "i"
20:58:43 <GregorR> Whereas I would never decapItalIze 'I', even If It's not correct to capItalIze It.
20:59:31 <pikhq> I do the normal, mundane thing.
21:00:08 <oklopol> or do you flip the bit twice, and it's "i" again?
21:00:18 <pikhq> However, that only applies to punctuation. I use 'logical quoting': for example, "I use logical quoting.".
21:01:43 -!- pikhq has left (?).
21:01:53 <augur> logical quoting is the only logical thing to use
21:02:56 <tusho> i imitate andrew cooke sometimes, just because i can
21:02:56 <tusho> and it's less work to type
21:02:56 <tusho> see what i did there?
21:05:09 -!- deveah has left (?).
21:06:35 <augur> planes and automobiles
21:06:46 <tusho> hotidlerchick: so who are you actually
21:07:09 -!- namor has joined.
21:07:51 <tusho> namor: turn back, or you can never leave
21:08:26 -!- tusho has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
21:08:31 <tusho> the topic was not nearly presentable enough!
21:09:13 <namor> Well, now the link's missing, isn't it?
21:09:27 <tusho> To the logs? It's still there.
21:09:31 <tusho> It's just at the end.
21:09:34 <namor> http://www.frappr.com/esolang
21:09:39 <tusho> Was that there before?
21:09:45 <oklopol> namor: it's in the chanserv message
21:09:59 <tusho> better link to the site actually
21:10:07 -!- tusho has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
21:10:29 <oklopol> weird to see a sensible topic
21:11:52 <oklopol> well yeah, it's been there a few times, but it always gets mangled in a few minutes
21:12:05 * GregorR was the first one to call #esoteric an "international hub" :P
21:12:18 <tusho> GregorR: It's enterprisey!
21:16:06 <namor> Ah, I just remembered what esoteric programming languages were.
21:24:03 <augur> dude, some channels have background images! :o
21:24:07 <augur> we should have a background image!
21:24:53 <augur> go into #ruby. they have a background image
21:25:08 <tusho> No they don't, augur
21:25:13 <tusho> Your client is broken.
21:25:16 <oklopol> they don't! god i'm surprised :O
21:25:50 <tusho> augur: anyway, they don't
21:27:08 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:27:12 <tusho> and it's your client
21:27:52 <namor> I wanna see things too
21:28:11 <oklopol> ais523's languages are awesome
21:28:30 <tusho> augur: http://www.serenity.de/assets/images/public/limelight.jpg
21:28:36 <tusho> looks like it's a config option or osmething
21:28:44 <tusho> i guess it has a few defaults pointing to logos
21:29:11 <tusho> augur: "t features icons/images for some channels I frequent. "
21:29:13 <tusho> looks like the theme does it
21:29:50 <augur> well there was an image there none-the-less :)
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21:38:11 <augur> we should build a little computer
21:38:32 <augur> something primitive but cool
21:38:44 <tusho> augur: once I'm back yes
21:38:45 * GregorR still wants a pneumatic computer.
21:38:55 <augur> maybe something mechanical, made of little rods of metal/wire
21:39:07 <augur> hmm pneumatic like air? or like water/oil?
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22:17:46 <augur> well, water would i think be better because air compresses
22:18:05 <augur> so youll have issues with making an air-based computer
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22:20:12 <lament> an air-based computer would be great so you can run whitespace on it
22:20:39 <lament> earth's atmosphere is sufficiently big and complicated to host it
22:20:52 <augur> er.. air-based pneumatic computer, lamen.
22:21:03 <lament> who needs message-passing when you can have hurricane-passing?
22:21:13 <augur> thats not a pneumatic computer lament :p
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22:24:06 <oerjan> ooh a computing atmosphere
22:24:44 <tusho> maybe the atmosphere IS tc
22:25:27 <GregorR> That would explain why meteorology is so useless.
22:25:34 <GregorR> They're trying to solve the halting problem (in essence)
22:26:06 <tusho> GregorR: that was my thought
22:26:11 <augur> the atmosphere is necessarily TC.
22:26:30 <augur> infact, it's beyond TC, it's an oracle machine.
22:26:36 <tusho> augur: that's .. bull
22:26:46 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:26:54 <augur> the atmosphere is just a collection of particles that run in quantum mechanics
22:26:57 <tusho> as far as I know, there are no known instances of processes that a turing machine cannot emulate
22:27:09 <tusho> augur: pretty sure you can emulate QM inside a turing machine...
22:27:26 <augur> QM performs infinite calculations instantaneously.
22:27:35 <tusho> augur: i'm pretty sure you can avoid that?
22:27:43 <augur> well, infinite tests
22:27:46 <tusho> at least, I've never heard of this
22:27:49 <augur> sum of all paths and all that jazz
22:28:06 <augur> ofcourse, that might not be considered above TC so i might be wrong.
22:29:40 <augur> but at the very least, the atmosphere is TC.
22:30:10 <GregorR> augur: The fact that it's running in a TC environment doesn't mean it's TC.
22:30:25 <augur> the atmosphere is a figment of our imagination ;)
22:30:35 <augur> there is nothing but the quantum foam
22:31:44 <oerjan> quantum computation doesn't give you anything beyond TC. you just get to do sort of parallel computation
22:32:03 <augur> but infinite superposition of states would
22:32:05 <oerjan> so it goes faster, but only exponentially or so
22:32:05 <tusho> also I like the idea of quantum foam
22:32:09 <tusho> that only sometimes exists
22:32:10 <augur> and afaik theres nothing in QM that prevents it
22:32:13 <tusho> I want some of that
22:32:23 <tusho> i'd keep it, sometimes
22:32:27 <GregorR> tusho: So, got something to push to the repo? :P
22:32:36 <GregorR> tusho: I promise I won't touch it for the next few hours D-8
22:32:46 <tusho> i'll work on it in a second
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22:33:51 <augur> gregor, have you seen that little handheld calculator with the turny top and stuff?
22:33:55 <augur> i forget what its called
22:34:12 <augur> man that thing is beautiful
22:34:24 <augur> i really want to build one
22:34:30 <augur> no, its not, but its just beautiful
22:34:53 <GregorR> When I (never) make a pneumatic computer, I should make it so you have to blow in a pipe to make it compute :P
22:35:08 <augur> oh! i have an idea!
22:35:30 <augur> that uses waves, so you have to blow it like an INSTRUMENT
22:35:39 <augur> and the result of the computation is sound outputs! :o
22:35:45 <GregorR> I know I heard somewhere that intersections of waves can do XOR gates and such.
22:35:55 <augur> intersections of waves?
22:36:08 <GregorR> When two waves ... intersect.
22:36:13 <GregorR> I can't find the right word.
22:36:25 <augur> you mean when they superimpose?
22:36:34 <augur> yes, i suppose it would be XOR
22:36:37 <augur> because of interference
22:36:58 <augur> but only if the waves were 180° out of phase with one another
22:37:07 <augur> and were the same frequency ;)
22:37:24 <augur> not that thats hard to do or anything
22:37:44 <augur> but yeah, it'd be an XOR
22:38:13 <augur> you'd just need to build your computer to be able to utilize the absolute value of the amplitude
22:38:29 <augur> or find some way to manipulate phase when you need to do so.
22:43:30 <ihope> A sonic computer would be difficult, I imagine. I think waves don't actually interact.
22:43:33 <GregorR> Heh, a pneumatic computer running sufficiently fast is a sonic computer ;)
22:43:35 <ihope> But maybe I'm mistaken.
22:43:55 <augur> waves interact, ihope
22:43:58 <ihope> I guess fluidic computing works, so they must interact to some extent.
22:44:01 <augur> they interfere, and do other stuff
22:44:09 <augur> well mostly they interfere ;)
22:44:27 <ihope> Well, when two waves interfere, you just get the sum of the two waves, no?
22:44:53 <augur> there are some interesting uses of waves to alter the speed of sound due to pressure changes in the air, and then use those speed-of-sound modifications to piggy-back second signals
22:45:00 <augur> eh, not quite ihope
22:45:12 <augur> i mean, you do, but that provides for interesting things.
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22:45:44 <augur> because, for instance, the sum of two waves in phrase is an or
22:46:02 <augur> you can use beats to produce ands
22:46:36 <ihope> Still, you can't compute with nothing but addition. The "true" you get from sin x + 0 is not the same as that you get from sin x + sin x.
22:46:45 <augur> its not _addition_
22:47:16 <augur> nevermind resonances and the like
22:47:35 <augur> resonance would probably be really good to work into a sonic computer
22:47:40 <augur> resonances, filters, etc.
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22:48:50 <ihope> What happens if you put a wall in the way of a sound? The resonant frequency goes through without too much problem, while frequencies that are farther away are cut out somewhat?
22:50:13 <augur> resonance is a property of oscillators, firstly
22:50:22 <ihope> Walls can oscillate, if they're flexible.
22:50:24 <augur> so i presume you mean the resonance frequence of the wall
22:50:31 <ihope> Call it a membrane. And yes, I do.
22:51:02 <augur> in those cases, all you'd be doing is inducing sympathetic vibrations in the wall at the walls resonance frequency
22:51:19 <augur> which ofcourse causes the wall to produce that same frequency in the environment
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22:51:47 <augur> but the wall doesnt filter anything
22:52:24 <augur> the incoming sound will either be absorbed (depending on the material, e.g. foam, which means it wont resonate either)
22:52:36 <augur> or it'll be reflected (which would be somewhat required for resonance)
22:52:45 <ihope> Well, if it's a membrane with air on both sides, surely it can also be transmitted.
22:53:04 <augur> well, the sound will move the wall which will produce sound on the other side
22:53:23 <ihope> And the sound on the other side will be of a somewhat lower amplitude, right?
22:53:27 <augur> but thats not quite like if the wall were "transparent" to the sound
22:53:38 <augur> because the whole surface of the wall becomes the oscillator for those situations
22:53:49 <augur> as for amplitude, it depends on the kind of wall.
22:54:06 <augur> obviously foam walls will reduce amplitude significantly
22:54:19 <augur> a metal wall will not be nearly as significant
22:54:37 <augur> and there wont be uniform damping across all frequencies
22:55:14 <ihope> Well, if the damping is nonuniform, it seems you can use that to filter and maybe compute.
22:56:11 <augur> the computation would have to occur in small resonance chambers and conducting tubes, at very precise frequencies and amplitudes meaning you'd probably want a more traditional filter
22:56:11 <ihope> But if I hit a wall with the superposition of two waves, is the result just the superposition of the waves I'd get if I hit it with each wave individually?
22:56:23 <ihope> Yeah, sounds about right.
22:56:39 <augur> as for superposition
22:56:56 <augur> the waves will produce an amplitude pattern on the wall
22:57:36 <augur> the pattern for the superposition of the two waves will not be the sum of the patterns for the individual waves
22:57:41 <augur> due to interference
22:58:33 <augur> on a wall some distance from the sound source
22:59:09 <augur> at the point directly "beneath" the sound source on the wall (i.e. where the sound source is perpendicular off the wall)
22:59:18 <augur> will be the "brightest" spot
22:59:33 <augur> and moving away from there the amplitude will decrease
22:59:52 <augur> but if you introduce a second sound source you'll develop rings of bright and dark
23:00:37 <augur> which could also be used for logic, obviously
23:01:31 <augur> the only problem is with amplitudes decreasing as the wave progresses along the circuit, as it is with electrical systems
23:01:46 <augur> so you'd need some way of making transistors that use sound
23:05:45 <tusho> who wants me to implement an esolang
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00:45:55 <ihope> So, nonlinear acoustics.
00:52:39 <ihope> Wait, it's all about waves changing shape slightly as they propagate?
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01:46:19 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/dc.html // first program working on jsmips that wasn't written as a test for jsmips :)
01:46:44 <ihope> Okololoponokonololo!
01:46:44 <augur> oklolove, we need to formalize the syntax for the language
01:47:36 <ihope> Lot's tro to olomonoto oll vowols oxcopt for o. :-P
01:48:02 <ihope> Soo, yoo'ro gottong tho hong of ot.
01:48:15 <ihope> Goo, thot soonds dorto. :-P
01:48:48 <ihope> "Tho hong of ot". Interesting :-P
01:48:51 <ihope> Or we could just eliminate H, as I'm so fond of doing.
01:49:19 <ihope> Of course, doing so would mean we couldn't say "the" very often.
01:49:22 <lament> augur: the world is not big enough for both of us. Prepare to die.
01:49:27 <ihope> Names don't count, you see. :-)
01:50:10 <augur> we could team up and take the world over, and then conquer the universe. o.o
01:50:11 <ihope> And we need to resort to stuff like "doing so" instead of "that".
01:50:16 <augur> all while having lots of gaysex,
01:51:22 <ihope> And we'd need to find lots of synonyms for everything, like some example I devised but forgot.
01:52:05 <ihope> It's difficult to find synonyms for stuff like "thought up", I suppose.
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04:31:30 <GregorR> Well, I got dc working ...
04:31:36 <GregorR> What should my next goal be?
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04:54:33 <GregorR> UNIX dc, the "desk calculator"
04:54:49 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/dc.html
04:56:30 <augur> whats with the enormorray?
04:56:59 <GregorR> ELF is /the/ binary format.
04:57:49 <GregorR> I don't know of any way to make that array smaller :P
04:58:10 <GregorR> Well, I guess I could compress it.
04:58:21 <GregorR> But then I'd need to write a decompresser in JavaScript :P
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06:04:24 <calamari> hi Gregor.. have I annoyed you thoroughly with dumb plant requests?
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06:38:40 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
06:39:17 <GregorR> Why yes, that IS the Bourne shell.
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08:07:21 <olsner> signalstack(2) failed with: Not supported?
08:09:06 <puzzlet> running something on jsmips?
08:11:12 <olsner> yes, the bourne shell linked to above
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08:28:23 <augur> you need to add in normal interfacing, instead of that text box at the bottom
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10:02:42 <GregorR> augur: The text box is just where the input is caught, so you can have other things on the page without it interfering.
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15:54:10 <tusho> GregorR: HOW COULD YOU GET SH WORKING WITHOUT ME
16:01:42 <tusho> GregorR: btw, your read mechanism sucks
16:01:45 <tusho> mind if I make it non-sucky
16:06:34 <tusho> GregorR's MIPS cpu simulator ... in javascript
16:06:42 <tusho> he's got the bourne sh(1) working
16:06:55 <tusho> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
16:09:52 <deveah> start you goddamn freaking javashit machine!1!1!1!1sigaltstack(2) failed with: N
16:14:15 <tusho> deveah: java != javascript
16:14:38 <tusho> deveah: Also, use firefox 3 or a webkit nightly.
16:14:43 <tusho> It starts up in less than a second.
16:15:01 <deveah> i use Opera and I'm not gonna change it
16:16:10 <tusho> deveah: Enjoy your piss poor javascript speed.
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16:32:55 <oklopol> i thought i'd never see the day we have two ".*eah"'s on #esoteric.
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16:33:20 <oklopol> it's like looking in a mirror!
16:34:03 <oklopol> sorry, i don't feel like contaminating my nick with lesser vocals :<
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16:38:39 <tusho> I think this is one of the few days I
16:38:43 <tusho> 've been online for like an hour before you
16:38:57 <ais523> tusho: actually, I was online about half an hour ago but forgot to log onto IRC
16:38:57 <deveah> "deveah" comes from the pronounciation of my initials
16:39:35 <tusho> first came here yesterday
16:39:51 <ais523> tusho: what with regulars changing their usernames, it's sometimes hard to tell
16:40:03 <tusho> ais523: i think you over-estimate how much that happens
16:40:09 <tusho> oklopol->oklofok is the only regular one
16:40:16 <tusho> and the only recent permanent one was mine
16:40:17 <ais523> tusho: well, you changed permanently recently
16:40:26 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure there was one before that too
16:40:29 <ais523> but I can't remember who
16:40:44 <tusho> ais523: Slereah_ used to be ANantes, or something
16:40:53 <tusho> oh, and I maintain that AAAAAAue4njxuz was someone having a laugh
16:40:55 <deveah> tusho, what was your last nick?
16:40:57 <tusho> that hasn't restarted their machine yet
16:44:13 <oklopol> deveah: so you do brainfuck?
16:44:41 <oklopol> it's the standard question
16:44:45 <deveah> but i like the language
16:44:59 <tusho> oklopol: and if you answer 'yes' you have to name 3 other esolangs
16:44:59 <ais523> well, it's the standard way people find this channel
16:45:05 <tusho> if you can't bzzzt! boom! bang! gone.
16:45:15 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of Brainfuck, myself.
16:45:17 <deveah> i'm working on an esolang based on OISC
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16:45:33 <ais523> deveah: ah, that's an interesting way to start
16:45:36 <tusho> ais523: GregorR got the bourne shell working in JSMIPS
16:45:36 <pikhq> Of course, having written PEBBLE, that's a bit of a necessity.
16:45:47 <pikhq> tusho: He did? Jebus.
16:45:48 <tusho> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html (Yes, you WILL need to use Firefox, and Firefox 3 at that)
16:45:56 <pikhq> GregorR: You're far too clever for your own good.
16:45:59 <tusho> Anything less than firefox 3 or a webkit nightly = YOUR MACHINE SHALL CRASH AND BURN
16:46:05 <deveah> Let's take three integers:
16:46:06 <deveah> If A and B are either registers, either given integers and C is register, the
16:46:06 <deveah> value in register C is either equal to A + B (if C is a type I register), or A * B (if C is a type II register).
16:46:06 <deveah> If C is not a register, and is a given value, if A = B (either register or given
16:46:06 <deveah> value), then jump to position C.
16:46:08 <deveah> If C is an input register ($0 for everything, gets asc of chars), and A is a register,
16:46:10 <deveah> A's value is changed to the user input.
16:46:11 <tusho> ais523: RC2 or above?
16:46:12 <deveah> If C is an output register ($3 for chars, $4 for integers), and A is a register,
16:46:13 <tusho> deveah: stop flooding
16:46:14 <deveah> A's value is outputted.
16:46:16 <deveah> Normal registers start with !; special registers start with $.
16:46:18 <deveah> 0 0 0 ends the program
16:46:21 <ais523> so, it doesn't work properly on Linux
16:46:26 <deveah> it's the Purice theory
16:46:27 <tusho> ais523: upgrade then ;)
16:46:30 <tusho> the ubuntu repos have it
16:46:36 <tusho> deveah: use a pastebin in future
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16:47:27 <deveah> isn't my theory clear enough?
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16:48:37 <pikhq> tusho: It works on Konqueror.
16:48:56 <ais523> connection troubles again
16:49:00 <ais523> tusho: paste the link again, so I have it?
16:49:07 <ais523> either that or I'd have to check logs, and I don't want to
16:49:09 <tusho> pikhq: but s l o w l y
16:49:14 <tusho> ais523: http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
16:49:22 <ais523> tusho: I don't have rc2
16:49:24 <deveah> everybody, join #something!
16:49:25 <pikhq> No, it works at a decent speed, actually.
16:49:30 <ais523> Ubuntu are slow at packaging Firefox, for some reason
16:49:33 <tusho> ais523: there's an ubuntu repo for it
16:49:45 <pikhq> Of course, then again, I'm on a horrendously overspec'ed workstation ATM.
16:49:58 <tusho> ais523: About to install a mediawiki on rutain FWIW
16:50:19 <ais523> tusho: wrong channel and you misspelt it
16:50:29 <tusho> but it's not for ESO ais523
16:50:33 <ais523> anyway, enabling JavaScript seems to help...
16:50:36 <ais523> tusho: what is it for?
16:50:42 <ais523> are you mirroring Esolang, for instance?
16:50:44 <deveah> I see tusho was the most easy to influence here
16:50:52 <tusho> ais523: a game of nomic I started on the xkcd forums; someone asked me to set up a wiki for it
16:51:27 * pikhq bows before Greogr
16:51:29 <tusho> ais523: This entails setting up postgresql.
16:51:39 <ais523> tusho: because you hate MySQL, presumably
16:51:53 <ais523> but it works on both, so there's no problem
16:51:55 <tusho> ais523: PostgreSQL has features such as 'maintains integrity'
16:51:58 <tusho> Suprising, I know.
16:52:04 <ais523> tusho: well, so does MySQL-InnoDB
16:52:09 <ais523> which is what Wikimedia uses
16:52:12 <tusho> ais523: No, sorry. :3
16:52:19 <tusho> But not really. Also it lacks like half of SQL.
16:52:32 <ais523> MySQL has features such as "doesn't need to rebuild the database just because the engine ran out of internal sequence numbers"
16:52:39 <ais523> but despite that, I like both of them
16:52:49 <tusho> ais523: are you talking about a postgresql from 1993 or something.
16:53:05 <ais523> tusho: I'm just repeating flames, I don't know much about it really
16:53:26 <oklopol> deveah: sounds like it would work, but you're cheating :)
16:53:42 <oklopol> deveah: in case my almost-disconnect prevented this from getting through: sounds like it would work, but you're cheating :)
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16:55:12 <tusho> ais523: hm, that's odd
16:55:15 <tusho> probably a missing syscall
16:55:21 <deveah> oklopol - i'm the cheater type - if the game i'm playing has no cheats, i take a debugger and hack it
16:55:41 <tusho> Translation into english:
16:55:49 <tusho> <deveah> I suck at games, so I cheat.
16:56:06 <tusho> Works in nomic I guess
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16:56:14 <deveah> oklopol - i'm the cheater type - if the game i'm playing has no cheats, i take a debugger and hack it
16:56:25 <ais523> tusho: actually, I both like playing games honestly, and trying to mess with them to see what I can do
16:56:37 <ais523> I went and programmed stone-paper-scissors in Age of Mythology once
16:56:42 <tusho> ais523: as do I; but he said he just plays cheats
16:56:44 <ais523> and noughts and crosses in Neverwinter Nights
16:57:07 * ais523 tries to program noughts-and-crosses in just about everything
16:57:09 <tusho> I bet you could embed just about anything in Go
16:57:11 <ais523> to determine whether it's possible
16:57:18 <tusho> ais523: Program it in Go.
16:57:33 <ais523> actually, I was wondering if it would be possible to create a TC Sudoku-based esolang
16:57:38 <deveah> nonono, in NOT A PROGRAM
16:57:44 <ais523> you'd need to have some way to extend the board
16:57:48 <oklopol> deveah: just saying it's not a very pure oisc, but yeah, cheating is good
16:58:38 <deveah> it's kinda inspired by oisc
16:59:07 <deveah> XMISC - eXtended MonoInstruction Computer\
17:00:15 <Slereah_> How can you extend one instruction?
17:00:19 <deveah> i copied from OISC, added X and changed O to M...
17:01:16 <deveah> Slereah_: it's basically a single instruction, and I added more things to it
17:01:29 <deveah> did i spell 'basically' correct?
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17:04:08 <tusho> augur: ELF is the linux executable format
17:04:18 <tusho> literally, that is /usr/bin/dc, converted to an array
17:04:22 <oklopol> EXTENDED MONoinSTruction computER
17:05:07 <tusho> you should totally monsterify the winning rule next
17:05:09 <tusho> so that we can win by monster
17:05:20 <ais523> tusho: I have to monsterify rules at random
17:05:32 <deveah> anyone wanna play Scorched Earth?
17:05:33 <tusho> ais523: you can PRETEND
17:05:39 <oklopol> i was thinking a programming game where you program the rules a bot uses to mov
17:06:13 <oklopol> somewhat non deterministic levels, so you can't just time all moves exactly
17:06:45 <tusho> I like scorched earth.
17:06:48 <tusho> I've played the original
17:07:22 <tusho> lol@register doesn't work
17:08:09 <sekhmet> scorched3d is where it's at
17:08:29 <deveah> c'mon, before the login timeout
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17:09:07 <deveah> oklofok, http://scorch2000.com ?
17:09:16 <tusho> deveah: just go damnit
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17:11:39 <ais523> connection trouble again
17:19:50 <deveah> tusho suicided 2 times
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17:21:51 <tusho> ais523: BTW, I have lots of ideas for feathejs
17:21:57 <ais523> FF3 Download Day starts at 6PM, by the way
17:22:05 <ais523> I may download it just to help them set the record
17:22:13 <ais523> and put a copy on my USB stick
17:22:30 <deveah> i know what firefox is
17:22:32 <ais523> they're trying to set a record for downloads
17:22:45 <deveah> Vulpe-Inflacarata in Romanian
17:22:46 <ais523> and I like record-breaking attempts
17:22:57 <ais523> and also the silliness of asking people to DDOS you
17:22:58 <tusho> Vulpe-Inflacarata? That's a long name.
17:23:21 <deveah> well it's = to Fox on Fire, which is close to Firefox
17:23:30 <tusho> deveah: It's called Firefox everywhere.
17:23:39 <tusho> Also, Firefox is a species.
17:23:42 <tusho> Specifically, the red panda.
17:26:20 <pikhq> They're not trying to break a record, though. . .
17:26:38 <pikhq> The record they set today will be the bar everyone else must try to break.
17:27:11 <ais523> pikhq: I'm not sure I can think of any software that would have a chance of breaking it in the near future
17:27:25 <ais523> most applications that are more popular than Firefox can't be downloaded freely
17:27:39 <ais523> probably OO.o has the best chance other than Firefox
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18:00:52 <ais523> heh, unsurprisingly, spreadfirefox.com is down
18:01:16 <pikhq> Holy crap. A few *seconds*?
18:02:12 <ais523> pikhq: I assumed that as they were asking people to DDOS their servers, they would have been able to handle it
18:03:31 <ais523> that's the first time I've got a connection interrupted warning, anyway
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18:14:34 <augur> omg im turning into oklopol
18:14:39 <ais523> and sorry for my connection troubles...
18:14:47 <augur> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:15:33 <ais523> augur: wireless connection to a dodgy router
18:15:37 <ais523> which I don't have control over
18:17:04 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:19:36 * oerjan wonders what those :: characters are about
18:19:45 <augur> ::rapes oklopols dead body::
18:19:54 <ais523> oerjan: I think they're making words into emoticons
18:19:57 <ais523> or actions, in this case
18:20:02 <augur> yeah, its roughly like that
18:20:27 <oerjan> what's wrong with * now? :/
18:20:35 <augur> nothing, it's just two different styles
18:20:40 <oklopol> don't ask me, i just copy.
18:20:45 <augur> i use :: for actions, * for sounds.
18:21:03 <deveah> or "<- does something"
18:21:26 <augur> i only use <- to actually point to my name
18:21:36 <augur> so like if someone asked "does anyone know ...?"
18:21:57 <augur> "whats your email address?" "<--- @ yahoo.com"
18:22:47 <augur> tho i'll use -> to mean "go to" or something
18:23:04 <augur> e.g. "you -> google" to mean "google it" or something
18:25:27 <pikhq> http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/3.0/linux-i686/en-US/firefox-3.0.tar.bz2
18:29:39 <augur> why do you link us directly to this?
18:30:09 <pikhq> Because the various sites linking to that are down.
18:30:22 <pikhq> As in, "went down the instant Firefox 3 came out".
18:30:23 <augur> well its crap on mac
18:30:34 <deveah> there's a minikitten in front of the block
18:30:53 <augur> it doesnt use native UI elements, it substitutes fake native ones
18:30:56 <augur> which looks ridiculous
18:31:06 <augur> and breaks the aesthetics
18:31:14 <pikhq> Firefox 3 uses native UI elements. . .
18:32:05 <pikhq> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2008/05/14/firefox-3-themes/
18:32:17 <augur> it does no such thing on mac.
18:32:52 <pikhq> Firefox 2 sure didn't.
18:33:09 <ais523> pikhq: link to the Windows version?
18:33:12 <ais523> although I'm on Linux, I think having the Windows version could be handy
18:33:14 <ais523> I'll get FF3 itself via the repos later
18:33:36 <pikhq> augur: http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2008/05/14/firefox-3-themes/ Read that and tell me again?
18:34:00 <augur> they are not using native UI elements in their webpages, nor universally in their app UI.
18:34:28 <augur> http://www.sanneblad.se/johan/?p=180
18:35:03 <ais523> augur: they use native UI elements when there was one that did what they wanted
18:35:09 <ais523> so they use gtk-stuff in Linux
18:35:22 <ais523> augur: only for some of the elements
18:35:26 <augur> explain this: http://www.sanneblad.se/johan/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/listbox-firefox.png
18:35:37 <ais523> for the other ones, and on other platforms, they got some graphic designers to design UI elements that looked native
18:35:45 <augur> the explanation for that is they reinvented the wheel for no reason.
18:36:31 <pikhq> I want to know what build of Firefox 3 that was.
18:36:46 <pikhq> And who the fuck missed that if that's in Firefox 3.0.
18:37:10 <augur> dude, mozilla recreates UI elements for no reason, and always has
18:37:21 <augur> they're absolutely retarded.
18:37:23 <lament> actually they probably do have a reason.
18:37:41 <lament> it probably has something to do with ease of portability
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18:37:43 <augur> drop down menus are fucking special, there's no reason to recreate them.
18:37:49 <augur> ease or portability?
18:37:57 <lament> drop down menus are subtly different on all platforms.
18:38:05 <augur> you mean the portability of having to completely recode your UI elements for THREE DIFFERENT OSes?
18:38:16 <lament> yes, it's probably better than using native elements
18:38:26 <lament> which would be even _more_ of a pain
18:38:34 <augur> you're creating three completely different fucking browsers as it is
18:38:42 <lament> have you worked with UI much?
18:39:10 <lament> they're not three different browsers, they're the same browser with three different looks
18:39:16 <lament> as opposed to three actually different browsers
18:39:22 <lament> which you would get if you used native elements
18:39:22 <augur> lament, they run on three very different operating systems
18:39:46 <lament> not a reason not to try to keep them as close to each other as possible
18:39:52 <augur> so unless they found some magic way to run windows code on mac and linux, or the reverse, they're different browsers.
18:40:31 <pikhq> They have the exact same source code.
18:41:07 <augur> so the whole thing is written in C/++ with some magic ground up way of building UI elements
18:41:09 <augur> which is retarded.
18:42:26 <pikhq> Which is better than being written in C/C++ with some magic ground up way of drawing UI elements using the native GUI toolkit while using the same functions to actually get each widget. . .
18:42:38 <pikhq> (have you ever done cross-platform coding?)
18:43:07 <augur> ofcourse its better than doing that, which is why no sane person would do it that way
18:43:20 <pikhq> So, what the hell *do* you suggest?
18:43:45 <augur> you'd abstract out the core features that you want to be truly identical across the platforms, namely the JS engine, the HTML engine, etc. and THAT would be the same
18:43:56 <augur> and everything else would be build out of native items like you'd expect.
18:44:07 <pikhq> And each GUI would be a completely different code base?
18:44:19 <lament> that sounds much harder and much more painful to maintain than the way it's currently done
18:44:25 <pikhq> In other words, you suggest coding in triplicate.
18:44:25 <augur> no, they wouldnt produce a code base for the GUI at all
18:44:34 <augur> no, no coding "in triplicate"
18:44:48 <pikhq> Ah. So, you'd have them only produce a code base for Gecko?!?
18:44:55 <pikhq> WTF is wrong with you?
18:45:14 <augur> whatever, pikhq. it's clear you have no idea how much less work it would actually involve.
18:45:46 <pikhq> Ask the Camino project how well they're doing.
18:45:49 <augur> open up the code for some UI elements some time. its not a few lines of code, its hundreds of lines of code for each UI element.
18:45:51 <pikhq> And imagine two more such projects.
18:46:19 <augur> i cant speak for the poor management that they have doing this thing cross platform.
18:46:38 <pikhq> Cross-platform coding is poor management?!?
18:46:41 <oklopol> wish i cared the least bit so i had something to say!
18:46:46 <augur> thats not what i said pikhq
18:47:17 <augur> good job, pikhq. now were done, since you can't communicate.
18:47:17 <pikhq> I'll grant that at this point, it's fairly stupid to be drawing their own UI elements, though. . .
18:47:29 <augur> heh. and so now you agree with me completely?
18:47:31 <pikhq> Honestly, everything should just be rendering via Qt 4 now.
18:47:40 <augur> you're ridiculous.
18:48:07 <lament> this is pretty much universal
18:48:16 <lament> very very rarely does this not hold
18:48:16 * pikhq just wants to see Qt/Gtk.
18:48:30 <ais523> pikhq: what, both merged together
18:48:44 <augur> portability is fine when you don't destroy the usability of the application
18:48:48 <pikhq> ais523: No, Qt rendering via Gtk.
18:49:05 <augur> lament, are you a fan of Java?
18:49:06 <pikhq> Just like Qt/OS X renders via Cocoa, and Qt/Windows renders via Win32.
18:49:13 <lament> firefox is unusable? The most successful open source project on the desktop? hello?
18:49:17 <augur> OS X does not render via Cocoa.
18:49:26 <pikhq> augur: Qt on OS X does.
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18:49:41 <lament> augur: I'm not a fan of Java, but not because of its portability.
18:49:56 <lament> It's just a sucky language
18:50:09 <lament> I'm a fan of Python, though :)
18:50:31 <augur> pikhq: when you say render via Cocoa, what do you mean?
18:50:43 * oerjan suddenly wonders if there's a Qt/Pi
18:50:52 <pikhq> It uses Cocoa to draw its widgets.
18:51:13 <augur> thats not quite "rendering"
18:51:26 <pikhq> Sorry; I used the wrong term.
18:51:40 <augur> i thought you meant to render the video.
18:51:52 <pikhq> Which is kinda stupid.
18:52:58 <augur> anyway, i cant really understand why they'd need to build their own UI elements. the effort is just too great, it's incomprehensible.
18:53:15 <pikhq> Cocoa doesn't render things; it draws stuff using Quartz.
18:53:25 <augur> i know, thats why i was confused by what you were saying :)
18:55:47 <pikhq> Anyways, yeah; Firefox 3 really ought to use either Qt or wxWidgets to draw native widgets, IMO. . .
18:57:00 <augur> it should just use XUL to better form.
18:57:43 <augur> it would be relatively simple to build a layout builder that takes XUL and builds a properly laid out UI from that
18:58:04 <augur> max a hundred lines of code to do that on a mac.
18:58:14 <augur> which is less code than they'd need to build a drop down menu.
18:58:29 <augur> and they'd get the whole UI out of it.
18:58:58 <augur> i think they make a good render engine and a good JS engine, but their painfully slow and stupid in some regards.
18:59:17 <augur> brendan eich also works for them, and he's a moron.
18:59:23 <pikhq> Which is great and all, except that XUL is designed to really be interpreted, rather than compiled. . .
18:59:37 <augur> which is irrelevant, since their whole UI is XUL.
18:59:50 <augur> in terms of layout.
19:00:06 <pikhq> XUL is very, very heavily linked with Javascript.
19:00:33 <augur> anyway, lets talk about esolangs
19:00:40 <augur> lets not talk about firefox
19:00:56 <augur> oklopol, we need to formalize the grammar for our language
19:01:49 <oklopol> i have to code my game today
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19:04:34 <tusho> i don't think augur has actually programmed a cross-platform app
19:04:45 <tusho> he seems to like a lot of 'WEB2.0 JAVASCRIPT ZOMGZ', though
19:04:45 <augur> i dont think tusho's hit puberty.
19:04:55 <ais523> I've programmed cross-platform apps
19:04:58 <ais523> by mistake, in some cases
19:05:10 <ais523> as in, I aimed for one platform but it worked on all the others too
19:05:14 <ais523> with only minor tweaks
19:06:20 <lament> i think the reason it happened is because you weren't trying to use native widgets everywhere
19:06:49 <ais523> lament: yes, it's either been a webapp or a CLI program in each case
19:07:20 <ais523> although in some cases when I've deliberately tried to write a portable program I've used Allegro for graphics rendering
19:07:27 <ais523> which is cross-platform nowadays
19:07:34 <ais523> at least, I've got it to work on both Linux and Windows
19:08:46 <lament> that's not cross-platform :)
19:09:08 <ais523> lament: it works on other platforms too, in theory
19:09:13 <ais523> but I've never had a chance to test
19:09:28 <ais523> but as the Linux version uses X11, it should work fine on a Mac and on BSD
19:09:42 <tusho> x11 is a seperate app on macs
19:09:53 <tusho> a sure-fire way to anger mac users, too, since it's not very nice to use
19:10:00 <lament> yeah, it's not very nice at all
19:10:03 <ais523> so it's not cross-platform in the works natively sense
19:10:24 <lament> first you have to start it up, which takes forever
19:10:25 <ais523> but then, I actually generated DOS and Linux versions
19:10:30 <ais523> so it isn't nice to use on Windows either
19:10:37 <augur> X11 on a mac is painful :(
19:10:37 <lament> and then, you have X-style ugly windows mingling together with pretty OS X windows
19:10:40 <ais523> because you have to go via NTVDM
19:10:51 <ais523> which is not only painful, but also less reliable than X11 on a mac is
19:10:53 <lament> with a menu in the window instead of at the top of the screen
19:13:22 <augur> copy and paste doesnt work between X11 and the normal system
19:13:29 <augur> which kind of sucks
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19:14:41 <augur> standard UI element behavior is different
19:15:06 <lament> i don't think X11 sucks on OS X
19:15:09 <lament> i think X11 sucks in general
19:15:19 <lament> it's just that on linux there actually isn't a better alternative
19:15:26 <lament> which is a horrible shame
19:15:33 <lament> unless you count KDE and such
19:15:40 <pikhq> lament: X11 on Linux sucks less than everywhere else.
19:15:40 <augur> its called GNUStep :)
19:15:43 <lament> ('such' being 'gnome')
19:15:49 <pikhq> augur: GNUstep runs on X11.
19:16:08 <augur> ugh. those crazy linuxers.
19:16:13 <augur> cant even port openstep correctly
19:16:25 <pikhq> There's nothing better than X11 available.
19:16:40 <pikhq> And won't be until X.org gets around to doing X12.
19:16:43 <lament> it's one of the big problems with linux as far as i'm concerned
19:16:52 <lament> the lack of a sane graphical environment
19:17:17 <lament> (where 'sane' involves a lot of centralized control and standardization)
19:17:17 <pikhq> It's actually getting better. . .
19:17:31 <pikhq> Which is amazing, really. . .
19:17:40 <lament> well, can't really get any worse :)
19:18:49 <pikhq> Well, actually, it can.
19:21:02 <pikhq> Although that would inspire someone to create the world's greatest graphical environment. . .
19:21:24 <lament> destroying X would be nice :)
19:22:39 <pikhq> Probably end up using something entirely OpenGL based.
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19:23:34 <pikhq> tusho: X12 would be a complete redesign of the X protocol.
19:24:01 <pikhq> (will be, rather; IIRC, that's currently in the planning stages)
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19:24:25 <lament> you absolutely must have standardized widgets
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19:24:37 <lament> X11 is great but it solves the wrong problem
19:25:00 <pikhq> By that token, only OS X has reached sanity.
19:25:06 <pikhq> (which is obviously true. ;p)
19:25:45 <lament> X11 is about relaying graphics over networks and managing multiple processes displaying on one buffer
19:25:46 <pikhq> Well, at least having two sets of widgets is a hell of a lot saner than what X11 used to deal with.
19:25:56 <tusho> OS X hasn't _quite_ reached insanity.
19:26:05 <pikhq> Per-application widget sets = *shudder*
19:26:05 <tusho> They did, but then Apple got a sort of lets-make-our-own-widgets fetish.
19:26:10 <tusho> Dunno if it's any better in Leopard, probably is.
19:26:19 <tusho> Still; a lot better than linux.
19:26:39 <pikhq> tusho: Linux at least now offers only GTK versus Qt.
19:27:00 <pikhq> Instead of its former GTK versus Qt versus Motif versus Tk versus custom widgets.
19:27:02 <tusho> pikhq: There's tons of apps using other widget sets.
19:27:07 <tusho> Tk is very popular for python people, for instance.
19:27:19 <pikhq> tusho: And they should die.
19:27:49 <pikhq> (Tk really, really badly needs to just draw via GTK or Qt. . .)
19:28:05 <tusho> and then hopefully gtk will die
19:28:08 <pikhq> At least it doesn't look like freaking Motif any more.
19:28:10 <tusho> since qt works on other platforms natively
19:28:21 <tusho> of course qt has a fucked license
19:29:00 <pikhq> What's so fucked about it?
19:29:26 * Hiato realises it's now officially download day
19:29:43 <tusho> pikhq: commercial use
19:29:47 <tusho> they require you to use a seperate license
19:29:57 <tusho> pikhq: plus, it's under the gpl anyway
19:30:05 <tusho> and that SUCKS for libraries
19:30:14 <tusho> unless you have a borg-esque mentality of who should use what license
19:30:16 <tusho> which GPL users tend to...
19:30:19 <pikhq> Though that's not for commercial use, but rather for non-free use.
19:30:27 <tusho> I'd be happy if a license said:
19:30:34 <tusho> instead of "YOU MUST MAKE DERIVATIVES UNDER THE GPL"
19:30:39 <pikhq> (you can have commercial free software and non-commercial non-free software, after all)
19:30:42 <tusho> it said "YOU MUST MAKE DERIVATIVES IN A FSF APPROVED LICENSE"
19:30:48 <tusho> though I guess that offers a path to non-free
19:30:50 <ais523> tusho: well, Stallman recommends people licence libraries under GPL specifically to stop non-GPL code using them, but I know you disagree with them on that
19:30:51 <tusho> ->mit/bsd->non-free
19:31:02 <tusho> ais523: nobody sane listens to him on that at least.
19:31:15 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, that only applies to libraries which do something unique.
19:31:22 <pikhq> (such as GNU readline)
19:31:47 <pikhq> For a library that does something common, he recommends the LGPL.
19:32:05 <ais523> I accept the correction
19:32:11 <ais523> but is readline really unique?
19:32:17 <pikhq> It was at the time.
19:32:19 <ais523> DOSkey does much the same thing, after all
19:32:30 <ais523> which shows that Microsoft, at least, are capable of reimplementing it
19:32:40 <ais523> except they didn't release that as a library
19:32:43 <ais523> so nobody else can use it
19:36:05 <tusho> augur: $ git clone http://code.eso-std.org/feathejs.git
19:36:07 <tusho> and open index.html
19:36:16 * tusho watches augur squeam over jQuery use
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19:50:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I just want to say, this piet program is brilliant: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/piet_pi_big.png
19:50:44 <tusho> ais523: creator of piet's
19:50:48 <tusho> david morgan-marr, I believe
19:50:54 <tusho> also creator of Irregular Webcomic!
19:51:00 <ais523> it works the same way as that IOCCC-winning pi program
19:51:03 <ais523> which mesaured its own area
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20:32:52 <augur> what am i supposed to look at now tusho?
20:33:35 <tusho> narcissus uses loads of firefoxy extensions
20:33:40 <tusho> which kinda sucks, but meh
20:33:46 <ais523> tusho: you didn't give em a link
20:34:00 <augur> oh, git, yes i see
20:34:17 <augur> i dont use git and im not going to waste my time getting it so i can look at a page i dont care about :P
20:34:38 <tusho> augur uses his awesome javascript vcs he coded IN JAVASCRIPT
20:34:42 <tusho> it doesn't use jquery
20:35:01 <augur> so tusho, when are you going to hit puberty and, you know, grow up
20:35:24 <lament> augur can't wait for tusho to hit puberty
20:35:24 <tusho> augur: sheesh, take a joke
20:35:40 <augur> jokes are supposed to be funny, not display your stupidity.
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20:36:03 <tusho> augur: well then I guess I should have said something like lament
20:40:23 <augur> oh thats weird looking but.. interesting
20:40:32 <tusho> augur: haha, what is
20:40:42 <tusho> it parses the JS you give it
20:40:45 <augur> void AddOne (int x)
20:40:58 <tusho> augur: odd procedure..
20:41:01 <tusho> it doesn't return anything
20:41:04 <tusho> just over-writes a global
20:41:09 <augur> it also doesnt work
20:41:23 <augur> because x isnt a global :)
20:41:39 <pikhq> That odd use of braces makes me half-think it's Plof.
20:41:57 <augur> its just C, it's just an odd use of braces.
20:42:10 <pikhq> {x = x+1;} is perfectly valid Plof, though kinda pointless.
20:42:47 <augur> i've never seen someone write a one like function like that before
20:43:05 <tusho> I should write plof->jf
20:43:12 <augur> which makes me want to make a language where you have to wrap each line of body in {}
20:43:13 <pikhq> tusho: Gregor already did.
20:43:21 <pikhq> It's called jsplof.
20:43:22 <tusho> pikhq: does it let you interface with js?
20:43:33 <pikhq> I think so; I never played with that much.
20:43:44 <pikhq> I tended to use dplof and cplof.
20:44:03 <pikhq> It's a language by Gregor.
20:44:13 <augur> yeah i got that :P
20:44:16 <pikhq> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.pdf
20:44:33 <tusho> pikhq: that would have been better if plof3.pdf was actually a plof interpreter
20:44:43 <tusho> i mean, that actually ran when you open the pdf
20:44:50 <pikhq> Jeeze, that spec is incomplete. . .
20:45:16 <pikhq> And it doesn't give any decent examples of the Plof User Language.
20:46:11 * pikhq needs to hop back on the Plof bandwagon
20:46:38 <GregorR> tusho: You could implement signals in jsmips! :P
20:46:53 <GregorR> pikhq: That's because the Plof User Language is incomplete :P
20:46:54 <tusho> GregorR: get forking working
20:46:58 <tusho> echo `echo a` fails in sh
20:47:08 <ais523> tusho: heh, I tried that exact command too
20:47:13 <augur> ive decided on a new fursona
20:47:15 <GregorR> tusho: I already did get forking working, that fails because of waitpid which in turn fails because it has no signals.
20:47:15 <ais523> but I think it fails because it can't create a pipe
20:47:17 <augur> well, fake fursona
20:47:18 <tusho> ais523: I got it from you
20:47:22 <augur> but ive decided on a new fursona
20:47:34 <tusho> augur: how wonderful...
20:48:04 <augur> ive decided that my fursona is...
20:48:09 <augur> an uncollapsed probability wave
20:48:31 <augur> agh!!! ::collapses::
20:48:36 <pikhq> augur: Allow me to just give you the coolest feature of Plof: its syntax is defined in Plof.
20:48:51 <ais523> pikhq: well, C-INTERCAL's syntax is defined only in C-INTERCAL
20:48:59 <pikhq> http://www.codu.org/cgi-bin/ploftrac.cgi/browser/core/pul/pul.plof
20:49:03 <GregorR> My fursona (whatever-tf that is) will be Anne Uncollapsed Probability Wave
20:49:03 <augur> you can define many languages in themselves :P
20:49:08 <ais523> the distribution ships with a precompiled C-INTERCAL program just so you can start it off
20:49:26 <augur> gregor: are you from upstate new york?
20:49:36 <tusho> augur: no, not just defined in itself
20:49:40 <tusho> the actual plof you run is defined in itself
20:49:41 <pikhq> augur: The syntax is defined at runtime.
20:49:49 * tusho watches RodgerTheGreat come and say "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! JUST LIKE FEATHER!"
20:49:58 <augur> hm. gregor, why did you say "anne"?
20:50:20 <pikhq> pul.plof is actually executed before your Plof program, in order to define the Plof syntax.
20:50:37 <augur> how do you define plof syntax after running plof? i dont see how this is possible.
20:50:55 <GregorR> augur: A very minimalistic syntax is defined in bytecode.
20:50:57 <augur> oh well thats cheating isnt it
20:51:02 <GregorR> augur: Then the syntax builds upon itself.
20:51:27 <GregorR> augur: Because Anne is a name and "fursona" sounds like "persona", so I was making a "persona" based on "an uncollapsed probability wave" :P
20:51:33 <augur> so really plof is embedded in the bytecode
20:51:46 <ais523> well, there's a Perl version of CLC-INTERCAL's syntax, but it was compiled from CLC-INTERCAL
20:51:55 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: heh
20:52:06 <ais523> bootstrapping an /interpreter/ from itself seems impossible without a compiler or an interpreter written in a different lang somewhere along the line
20:52:11 <augur> gregor: oh i see. well, i figured upstate new york because upstates pronounce "an" like "anne".
20:52:12 <ais523> even machine code is interpreted by the hardware
20:52:30 <tusho> unless it's feather
20:52:31 <augur> infact, upstaters pronounce "anne" and "ian" the same.
20:53:03 <RodgerTheGreat> oh yes, I seem to recall being in a discussion about something similar earlier on
20:54:03 <RodgerTheGreat> and I still think that, outside extreme edge-cases and tricky bullshit it's a completely ridiculous concept to actually implement
20:54:24 <tusho> #esoteric is NOTHING to do with extreme edge-cases and tricky bullshit.
20:54:26 <augur> tusho, have i told you about the reactive programming language oklopol and i are designing?
20:54:47 <augur> can i get your opinion on what the cfg should be for it?
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20:58:17 <ais523> augur: you didn't tell me, can you explain?
20:58:31 <augur> er.. the language?
20:59:35 <augur> well, its sort of the reverse of functional programming. where in functional languages you define functions defined in terms of other functions, etc, and then get the value of one function by calling the inner functions and doing stuff with their return values
21:00:31 <augur> with a reactive language you instead set up reactions.
21:00:42 <augur> so consider what happens if you have some function f() = g() + h()
21:01:19 <augur> if g() is not a pure function, when will you see the changes in the values of g()? only when you call it.
21:01:34 <augur> so if g() is time dependent, you only see its value when you call g(), or in this case f().
21:02:05 <augur> but with a reactive language, the moment g's value changes, this change cascades down through all the things defined in terms of it
21:02:16 <augur> so we might instead say something like, g+h -> f
21:02:23 <ais523> well, in fact, exactly like VHDL
21:02:24 <augur> so that if you later say g = 5
21:02:32 <augur> f is automatically different now
21:02:37 <GregorR> Well, VHDL is reactive by the nature of the problem it's solving :P
21:02:55 <augur> this doesnt make any real difference unless you're doing IO stuff, really
21:02:56 <ais523> VHDL is more verbose than COBOL, it seems
21:03:02 <ais523> at least for short programs
21:03:13 <augur> because if you never output, then f can be lazy and it becomes functional
21:03:14 <ais523> and it uses reactivity to order the statements, which is interesting
21:03:30 <augur> but for instance, consider the task of making some box follow the mouse on the screen
21:03:46 <ais523> yes, reactive langs would be good at that
21:03:52 <ais523> VHDL would be if it had a GUI
21:03:56 <augur> how would you do this functionally? or imperatively? you'd need to constantly poll the mouse and send that to some handler or whatever
21:04:11 <tusho> ais523: there are reactive haskell gui libraries
21:04:16 <tusho> they're pretty common
21:04:20 <augur> but with the language okl and i are designing, it would be just:
21:04:27 <augur> mouse.(x,y) -> box.(x,y)
21:04:27 <tusho> augur: see: Fudgets
21:04:36 <augur> that single statement is all you'd need.
21:04:58 <augur> well really its two statements in compressed form but close enough ;)
21:05:52 <augur> oh, and we have "functions" sort of
21:06:09 <augur> but really, functions are just temporarily constructed reactions
21:06:39 <augur> we also have time delays
21:07:02 <augur> so for instance if you wanted the box to follow the mouse 100 milliseconds behind the mouse
21:07:12 <augur> delay 100 mouse.(x,y) -> box.(x,y)
21:07:27 <ais523> augur: VHDL does that too
21:07:51 <ais523> mouse[x] <- mouse[y] after 100000ns
21:08:32 <augur> oh, and ive decided on the ability for variables to hold multiple values
21:08:41 <augur> not collections of values, but rather multiple values simultaneously
21:08:56 <oklopol> ais523: that's one weird piece of code you have there
21:09:26 <augur> come to #reactance
21:09:33 <augur> i want to go over the grammar real quick
21:09:45 <ais523> oklopol: that's genuine VHDL, almost
21:09:51 <ais523> except that I invented syntax for structures
21:10:02 <tusho> augur: your language doesn't need a channel
21:10:08 <tusho> (first law of #esoteric; learned it the hard way)
21:10:10 <ais523> mouse_x <- mouse_y after 100000ns would be real VHDL
21:10:25 <augur> tusho: i dont care.
21:10:27 <ais523> wait, that would be weird
21:10:35 <ais523> imagine moving the mouse with that code...
21:12:18 <tusho> ais523: diagonal mouse movement FTW
21:12:28 <ais523> tusho: it's not even that
21:12:37 <tusho> well yeah cause of the delay
21:16:21 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-").
21:16:50 -!- tusho has joined.
21:23:39 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:33:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:33:49 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:34:01 <tusho> you have to go back to Z
21:34:20 <Hiato> arg, do I get to roll again?
21:38:06 <Hiato> that's a tough one..... I'll go with: y
21:40:41 <Hiato> what about taking it backwards, FU?
21:40:58 <Hiato> that's 20 points baby
21:41:01 <oerjan> it's not a badge, it's a badger
21:41:13 <oklopol> okay, you ppl are good at this
21:41:15 <Hiato> but a combo bonus for me and oerjan cause his name starts with an o
21:41:21 <Hiato> and doesn't have a k in it
21:42:02 <oerjan> ok let's take an easier opening: W
21:42:48 <Hiato> oooh, you've got me there... man, pass, oklopol?
21:43:41 * Hiato is impressed with the use of uppercase letters *frantically pages through the rulebook only to discover it doesn't exist after carefully examining the index*
21:44:09 <ais523> are you playing Calvinball?
21:44:19 <oklopol> yeah, i think the rulebook should be rewritten to have, you know, existance
21:44:20 <oerjan> sheesh, only the opening letter is upper case, as you can see above
21:44:28 <Hiato> it's CalvinAlphaBall
21:44:43 -!- pikhq has left (?).
21:45:02 <ais523> yes, I know Hiato tried that earlier
21:45:15 <Hiato> oklopl, an advisable feature, perhaps. Later revisions then
21:46:01 <oerjan> oklopol: but existence would detract from its most important property, rewritability
21:46:23 <Hiato> so which letter would that be then, oerjan?
21:47:02 <Hiato> fine, you know what. Desperate times and measure and idioms: z
21:47:04 <oerjan> he can't? and here i had such a nice followup
21:47:27 <Hiato> that's right oerjan, clearly in violation of Rule:Rule
21:47:31 <ais523> don't go putting a z after r
21:47:36 <ais523> that was refuted years ago
21:47:51 <Hiato> when? I must have been sick that day...
21:48:19 <oerjan> that's a violation of the p-nand-q rule
21:48:45 <Hiato> http://p-nand-q.com for the h
21:49:22 * Hiato is puzzled as to how oklopol keeps winning --- hax
21:49:52 <Hiato> AHAHAHAHA, oerjan, my dear fellow, look what I have: d
21:50:04 <ais523> Hiato: ah, that's good
21:50:10 <Hiato> for Domination, Damnation, Darn It No More Words and such
21:50:17 <ais523> somehow I think oklopol will have trouble avoiding playing y next turn
21:50:22 <ais523> especially as I now play a
21:50:32 <Hiato> I tend to agree, but he could opt for a q
21:50:41 <ais523> I'd like to see him try
21:50:46 <Hiato> all eyes on oklopol
21:51:16 <oerjan> now THAT was a surprise move
21:51:20 <ais523> well, then, d and I win
21:51:26 <Hiato> heh, shame... poor fellow, did not see my z coming
21:51:28 <ais523> oerjan: clearly not, he let me win
21:51:33 <oklopol> i knew ais523 would see right through it
21:51:44 <Hiato> ais523, you cannot ignore it
21:51:49 <oklopol> well, actually, for a moment i thought you might not see it
21:51:55 <ais523> Hiato: yes, I know you get a big advantage in the next game
21:51:57 <ais523> but I wanted to win one
21:52:37 <Hiato> listen, I think that what oklopol did was... amazing, don't get me wrong, but perhaps he took ais523's arsenal of t's for granted there
21:53:38 <oklopol> that may just have happened
21:53:48 <oklopol> i like to be a bit more deep than you'd think at the first glance
21:54:05 <Hiato> so now in terms of balancing, is it +100 to asi523 for having numbers whose product are no greater then the length of a bunch of bananas if frequently played in place of oerjan's g
21:55:51 <ais523> Hiato: no, only +80k, it's a Tarnished Chain
21:56:25 <Hiato> oh, yeah, that rulebook is getting mighty heavy
21:57:41 <oklopol> well, don't forget Rule on Page, technically i still have the lead with less than 70 points.
21:58:10 <Hiato> oh my, asi523.... dare I say it, he's right according to Rule:Rule on Page:Number... oh dear
21:58:34 <ais523> Hiato: well, -5 for getting my name wrong
21:58:42 <ais523> yes, I know that's an optional rule, but...
21:58:53 <oklopol> of course, but that's not important at this level.
21:58:59 <Hiato> yay, I win :) My clever ploy has worked. Thank you oklopol :P
21:59:10 <Hiato> or is it a draw with 5:3 to him?
21:59:11 <ais523> oklopol: yes, but it's the principle of it
21:59:12 <oklopol> shit, how did that happen :|
21:59:12 <tusho> (I had a Z left from before)
21:59:34 <Hiato> it's photoshopped!
21:59:36 <ais523> r and I bar tusho for 3 turns
21:59:41 <tusho> ais523: one second too late
22:00:00 <tusho> hmm, I have a nomicy idea
22:00:03 <Hiato> I institute: The one-two to closey rule!
22:00:07 <tusho> we start playing a game much like mornington crescent
22:00:13 <tusho> but each time we reference a rule we write it down
22:00:15 <tusho> and build up a real ruleset
22:00:44 <Hiato> .... we have a ..real ruleset here, it just doesn't.... am... exist
22:00:48 <tusho> #nomicton-crescent if anyone wants to try it
22:01:07 <oerjan> this is a meaning of the word "real" with which i was not previously familiar
22:01:30 <tusho> maybe I didnt' explain it properly
22:01:34 <tusho> do you want to restate it, ais523? :-P
22:02:14 <ais523> tusho: see Mornington Nomic
22:02:23 <ais523> they actually worked out a Mornington Crescent ruleset like that
22:02:36 <ais523> which was a fair and balanced and interesting game
22:02:55 <tusho> ais523: oh well. want to shamelessly copy it over IRC? Then join #nomicton-crescent :-P
22:02:59 * oerjan predicts the usual fun-serious-dead cycle
22:03:13 <tusho> oerjan: Canada went the other way
22:03:14 <Hiato> cycle being a word of note
22:03:30 <oklopol> fun - serious - ORGY - three dead in stabbing incident
22:03:31 <tusho> a bit of serious, tons of fun, dead.
22:03:32 <oerjan> tusho: Canada started out dead?
22:04:06 <lament> fun-serious-dead, that's exactly what happened to esoteric languages
22:04:28 <ais523> I still try to maintain C-INTERCAL
22:05:06 <ais523> and things like Feather are just fun
22:05:51 <tusho> lament: when was the last time you talked about esolangs in here? :P
22:06:19 <tusho> lament: were they dead when you first entered?
22:06:33 <ais523> well, I think we should talk about esolangs here more often
22:06:44 <ais523> there's one being designed in #reactance as I speak
22:06:54 <ais523> in a paradigm that I'd forgotten existed
22:07:04 <tusho> ais523: augur continually claims 'ITS NOT ESOTERIC!121212'
22:07:14 <tusho> which is why he doesn't like talking about it in #esoteric, too
22:07:25 <oklopol> tusho: yeah, but don't forget i'm constantly pointing him to that direction ;)
22:07:31 <oklopol> but yeah, shame he's like that
22:07:40 <tusho> people can't appreciate a good esolang!
22:07:46 <oklopol> languages shouldn't try to make sense
22:07:55 <tusho> reactive programming is pretty effing esoteric in itself
22:08:01 <ais523> tusho: VHDL is far from esoteric
22:08:08 <ais523> it's one of the longest-surviving langs around
22:08:11 <tusho> ais523: you sure about that?
22:08:18 <ais523> and is used by many serious companies
22:08:24 <tusho> vhdl is very esoteric, ais523
22:08:30 <ais523> that kind-of de-esotericises a language in most people's view
22:08:37 <ais523> just like Perl and Haskell can't be considered esoteric
22:08:53 <augur> its not that its NOT esoteric, its that im trying to prevent it from being esoteric
22:09:08 <tusho> a totally non-esoteric language does not exist
22:09:21 <Hiato> Hello, I must be going, sleep dawns another day (and just so everyone knows, my last move was a q)
22:09:24 <tusho> ais523: asm is pretty esoteric
22:09:28 <ais523> although allegedly that's more esoteric than other langs
22:09:43 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
22:09:46 <augur> tusho: because i want it to be somewhat usable :P
22:09:59 <augur> im all for reactive languages that are esoteric, but im not making this to be esoteric
22:10:00 <tusho> augur: Esoteric means not somewhat usable?
22:10:05 <tusho> augur doesn't know the definition of esolangs
22:10:06 <tusho> that makes another one
22:10:13 <ais523> there can be langs that are both esoteric and usable
22:10:20 <ais523> admittedly I can't think of any right now
22:10:25 <augur> i guess, but none that i've see :)
22:10:35 <ais523> Thutu's usable in wimpmode
22:10:52 <ais523> that is, when it's been extended to have arithmetic
22:10:55 <augur> anyway, the idea is that the language is supposed to be user friendly and somewhat intuitive
22:11:05 <tusho> lol@user friendly and somewhat intuitive
22:11:12 <tusho> way to dig yourself into the whole of "sucks" like that
22:11:39 <tusho> aiming for those as goals dooms your language to be terrible pretty much
22:12:04 <augur> really? cause i rather think ruby succeeds at those and is quite popular
22:12:19 <augur> but oh, thats right, tusho, you're full of shit. :P
22:12:26 <tusho> augur: matz didn't aim for those, actually
22:12:33 <tusho> it's not that reaching those goals makes your language suck
22:12:34 <tusho> it's aiming for them
22:12:47 <augur> actually matz did :)
22:12:49 <oklopol> tusho's just not that user-friendly, i'd hardly call him a shit-full-of-guy
22:12:57 <augur> but you'd only know that if you'd read up on ruby at all
22:12:58 <oklopol> especially as that is one retarded word.
22:13:00 <tusho> augur: wrong, he aimed specifically for something that _he_ liked
22:13:01 <augur> rather than talking out your ass.
22:13:07 <tusho> Principle of matz' least suprise.
22:13:19 <augur> something matz likes = user friendly
22:13:25 <augur> since his intended user base was Matz.
22:13:30 <tusho> augur: that was coincidental then
22:13:41 <tusho> it just so happens that what was unsuprising to him was unsuprising to everyone else
22:13:46 <tusho> but aiming for 'unsuprising in general' fails
22:14:06 <augur> you're completely unhelpful, yet again.
22:14:22 <tusho> i was offering constructive criticism
22:14:29 <tusho> but if i'm that unhelpful /ignore is over there
22:14:41 <augur> unhelpful != annoying.
22:15:34 <tusho> yeah, after all I'm only 12 right augur? :P
22:16:45 <oklopol> hey, it was me calling you both kids
22:17:30 <augur> tusho doesnt bother to actually read messages, oklopol, he just likes to construct fantasies in his head and then talk to them
22:17:45 <augur> kids have imaginary friends, why not imaginary irc pals?
22:18:13 <lament> just turn your imaginary friend 90% and he'll become real
22:18:27 <lament> (where's the degrees sign on the keyboard?)
22:18:37 <tusho> augur: you know if you didn't know my age you might actually have to think of a valid argument
22:18:46 <lament> is that degrees? What's with the line under the 0
22:19:00 <augur> if i didnt know your age i'd think you were 12.
22:19:04 <lament> ª is not the degrees sign, it's the masculine ordinal sign
22:19:05 <augur> or mentally retarded.
22:19:30 <lament> that symbol shouldn't be used in English at all
22:19:38 <tusho> augur: yeah, um, go fuck yourself.
22:19:46 <ais523> augur: please, the joke's getting old
22:19:54 <ais523> you're turning #esoteric into a flame channel, almost
22:20:00 <ais523> augur: well, if not a joke, a statement
22:20:04 <ais523> you've made your point once
22:20:13 <augur> sorry, do what now?
22:20:15 <ais523> repeating it endlessly seems to serve no purpose other than to annoy tusho
22:20:17 <augur> i didnt bring up tusho's age.
22:20:29 <ais523> well, I'll tell him not to either
22:21:05 <ais523> lament: that's not fair
22:21:16 <tusho> ais523: i found that funny, actually
22:21:19 <ais523> and it would have been funnier without the third line
22:21:20 <augur> wasnt there someone else who was 13 or something too?
22:21:29 <tusho> augur: yeah, deveah
22:21:29 <oklopol> there was a guy who was 10
22:21:49 <oerjan> i'm not even born yet...
22:21:54 <augur> when the fuck did kids start getting into esolangs?
22:21:54 <tusho> augur: he was a bit spammy
22:21:58 <tusho> for large values of a bit
22:22:04 <tusho> and, err, his ideas didn't make much sense
22:22:08 <tusho> last time he came in here he was alright though
22:22:39 <oklopol> well, for spam, try immibis
22:22:51 <augur> man, now we've got 12 year olds critiquing 10 year olds. tusho do you wear a suit and hang out at water coolers talking about 401ks?
22:22:54 <lament> oerjan: you're old enough to have a name with a letter than doesn't even exist anymore
22:22:57 <oklopol> i never got his age out of him, even though i had a lot of private chats with him
22:22:58 <augur> tusho you should, it'd be adorable.
22:23:19 <augur> oerjans name has a letter that doesnt exisT??
22:23:22 <oklopol> lament: how did you get so funny?
22:23:33 <tusho> augur: perhaps I should spell it out for you; referencing my age constantly is neither funny nor relevant and does not further your argument in any way
22:23:35 <ais523> well, my name also contains a letter that doesn't exist
22:23:41 <tusho> to refine it further, shut the hell up about my age.
22:23:42 <ais523> but because the letter doesn't exist, I can't tell you what it is
22:23:47 <ais523> or even write down my name or say it properly
22:23:57 <oerjan> lament: well i suppose if i had been greenlandic...
22:23:59 <lament> oklopol: I did a funny degree at university.
22:24:00 <ais523> thus I just call myself ais523
22:24:07 <oklopol> lament: where do they offer that?
22:24:34 <oklopol> augur: a bit of an inside joke, oerjan is norwegian
22:24:44 <oklopol> lament: you see?!?? i'm even ruining jokes :|
22:24:53 <oklopol> as if not creating them wasn't enough
22:25:16 <oerjan> augur: lament was joking
22:25:31 <augur> completely confusing joke.
22:25:33 <tusho> well at least we have narrowed down augur's sense of humour
22:25:38 <tusho> it's NOT british ;)
22:25:50 <augur> i dont even see how that'd be british humor
22:25:57 <tusho> i didn't say that, actually
22:25:57 <augur> british humor is intelligent humor
22:26:20 <ais523> actually, it's british humour
22:26:28 <ais523> and is lament British?
22:26:30 <augur> i dont see how it was even a joke :(
22:27:13 <augur> canada is secretly russia
22:27:18 <tusho> (he had a nationality change operation)
22:27:19 <augur> soviet canuckistan!
22:27:35 <augur> where's the nationality? thats next to the pancreas isnt it?
22:28:18 <tusho> augur: yeah, it's very delicate
22:28:29 <augur> thats what i figured it was. i didnt think norwegian had œ
22:28:33 <tusho> sometimes it's too big; which is common in the USA
22:28:43 <oerjan> probably the langerhand isles [sp?]
22:28:43 <augur> i had my nationality removed a while back.
22:29:02 <tusho> i had my body removed recently; i'm a computer program
22:29:19 <oklopol> i don't actually believe the people on irc are real
22:29:33 <oklopol> sometimes i wonder whether i am real myself
22:29:51 <augur> it feels so.. swedish
22:30:00 <augur> oklopol, you're not real.
22:30:17 <oklopol> augur: coming from a bot running in my head, that's not entirely plausable
22:30:33 <augur> oh, so im a bot in your head?
22:30:42 <augur> you have bots in your head that lust are you?
22:30:56 <augur> kind of narcissistic i'd say
22:31:11 <lament> I'm a bot in your brain.
22:31:16 <augur> so rodger the great has bots who have bots that want one another?
22:31:26 <augur> rodger, why are you fantasizing about gay robot sex?
22:31:29 <RodgerTheGreat> augur: reminds me of a saying- "The human mind is only capable of creating illusions"
22:31:30 <oklopol> hmm, that sounds more probably
22:31:31 <oerjan> ah the langerhans isles are _in_ the pancreas
22:32:09 <augur> ørjan, you're from norway?
22:32:24 <RodgerTheGreat> augur: I can't explain that any better than I can explain why I'm fantasizing about robots questioning themselves fantasizing about robots fantasizing about having robot sex
22:32:30 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523|sl.
22:33:11 <tusho> I'm a bot in my mind.
22:34:32 <augur> anyone here danish?
22:35:00 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourHeadASplode
22:35:11 <oerjan> (warning, addictive link)
22:35:54 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: you can't, like, OWN a mind, man- it's there for EVERYBODY...
22:36:59 <augur> there was some show where the guy tried to make some other guys head explode through psychic powers
22:37:14 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit.
22:37:17 <GregorR> tusho: I think your FFI interface for jsmips should have handles instead of pointers, so it doesn't need to associate memory addresses with JS objects somehow.
22:37:36 <tusho> GregorR: I like turtles.
22:37:51 <tusho> GregorR: Btw, make the font size 12px.
22:37:54 <tusho> It looks a lot nicer.
22:38:04 <tusho> Oh, and once you've done that, make it 80x24.
22:38:07 <GregorR> tusho: I made it 10 because I preferred it to 12 :P
22:38:09 <tusho> (as in the div is actually that large)
22:38:12 <tusho> Then it'll be nicer.
22:38:15 <tusho> GregorR: Well I like to be able to read.
22:38:26 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Why thank you :P
22:38:32 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Have you seen the Bourne shell? ^^
22:38:45 <ais523|sl> it doesn't do a lot without a filesystem, though
22:39:16 <ais523|sl> I'll be really impressed if you can get Linux running in a JS emulator
22:39:34 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
22:39:45 <ais523|sl> GregorR: ah, it does OSy stuff as well as just emulate the processor?
22:40:16 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Yeah, all the syscalls are handled in JS.
22:40:33 <tusho> GregorR: When will linux run?
22:40:36 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Right now that's just read/write/fork/pipe and a few other things.
22:40:46 <GregorR> tusho: Never, it doesn't emulate hardware.
22:40:50 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Well, just not /yet/.
22:41:06 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: it runs sh
22:41:11 <ais523|sl> GregorR: well, in theory, you could get qemu running
22:41:26 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: http://codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
22:41:27 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: I rewrote it more efficiently.
22:41:31 <tusho> DISCLAIMER: use firefox 3 for fucks sake!
22:41:38 <GregorR> It runs fine on FF2 *shrugs*
22:41:46 <GregorR> Hell, it runs fine albeit slowly on Konq.
22:41:51 <tusho> GregorR: Well ff3 was just released officially today so :P
22:41:54 <tusho> And it's a lot faster.
22:41:56 <tusho> As in actually usable.
22:41:57 <RodgerTheGreat> you rewrote the entire bourne shell in MIPS, or did you use GCC and target the MIPS instruction set?
22:42:04 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: gcc
22:42:09 <tusho> he's been using gcc since he started
22:42:13 <tusho> GregorR: Can I non-suckify read()?
22:43:26 <tusho> GregorR: Not making it use a stupid textarea.
22:43:39 <GregorR> Oh, not-suckify Stdin you mean.
22:43:45 <tusho> Oh, and can you make a compile.sh that does sh?
22:43:49 <GregorR> I don't want to rely on focusing on a div.
22:43:56 <tusho> GregorR: It won't.
22:44:04 <GregorR> tusho: Then how do you want it to work?
22:44:09 <tusho> But it will take over the page, because jesus, expecting this to run on another page will just slow down this development horribly.
22:44:19 <tusho> and cripple it unneccessarily for something that will never, ever happen
22:44:29 <tusho> (someone actually using it on a custom page that requires it to be unobtrusive)
22:44:38 <GregorR> tusho: I added the textbox to /de/focus the start button.
22:44:47 <tusho> GregorR: What do you mean?
22:45:05 <GregorR> tusho: If you have the start button focused and you hit 'enter' to send a key to the shell, you'll start a new MIPS.
22:45:15 <tusho> GregorR: Duh, I can fix that trivially
22:45:20 <GregorR> tusho: And I can't tell it to focus on something that isn't a form field in a way that'll work on every browser.
22:45:36 <tusho> GregorR: I can make it work and not have an ugly text-field
22:45:40 <tusho> and actually support backspace, etc.
22:46:14 <GregorR> I'd love to see the stupid text-box replaced, but more than that I'd like to know for myself what the alternative is :P
22:46:31 <ais523|sl> GregorR: I'm sure there's some way to capture keypresses in JS
22:46:40 <ais523|sl> but they can have effects on the rest of the window
22:46:58 <GregorR> ais523|sl: That's what I am doing, I'm catching them in a text box so they /don't/ have an effect on the rest of the window :)
22:47:02 <tusho> I can get it working
22:47:04 <GregorR> Incidentally, Opera seems to have a crazy-fast JavaScript that runs it pretty well too.
22:47:11 <GregorR> tusho: Feel free, I'm just wondering how ;)
22:47:24 <tusho> just let me wrte this :P
22:47:32 <GregorR> OK, letting you write, we'll just speculate until you push :P
22:49:25 <tusho> GregorR: Now how do I compile.sh sh?
22:53:53 <lament> http://amorphia-apparel.com/design/bought/
22:54:47 <augur> i do my own silk screening
22:56:25 <GregorR> tusho: Just compile it with make CC=... AR=... RANLIB=..., then follow the instructions in compile.sh after the compilation part.
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23:00:03 <tusho> GregorR: gettin' closer
23:00:12 <tusho> it works without displaying, now for things like backspace
23:00:43 <tusho> GregorR: heh your problem is only listening to the ascii range
23:01:01 <ais523|sl> ah, my internet connection borked then fixed itself
23:01:03 <ais523|sl> and I got the last two minutes-worth of messages all at once
23:01:03 <GregorR> I was too lazy to properly handle everything else :P
23:01:09 -!- ais523|sl has left (?).
23:01:12 -!- ais523|sl has joined.
23:01:26 <tusho> GregorR: well, what do we need to handle...
23:01:36 <tusho> 0del, 8backspace, ^Hbackspace
23:01:37 <ais523|sl> something strange is up with my Internet connection
23:01:56 <ais523|sl> did I leave any channel but #esoteric?
23:02:18 <tusho> ais523|sl: less than a second
23:02:24 <tusho> and just this place
23:02:28 <tusho> but you had your quit message
23:02:29 <ais523|sl> ah, that would be my /cycle kicking in, then
23:03:49 <tusho> ais523|sl: is ^H = 8?
23:05:18 <tusho> ais523|sl: what about ^?
23:07:45 <GregorR> Idonno, but I speculate that if you look at an ASCII chart, it'll be that many after A :P
23:08:49 <tusho> 0 = del, 8 & 177 = backspace
23:08:52 <GregorR> Never mind, that'd be -1 :P
23:08:52 <tusho> what else should we handle?
23:09:49 <tusho> GregorR: I'm not coding tab handling.
23:09:52 <tusho> I'll do the rest, though.
23:09:59 <tusho> ais523|sl: What else do we need to handle, you know this kinda stuff
23:10:04 <GregorR> Because that'll tab through elements in the page.
23:10:23 <tusho> GregorR: Oh, no, I definately catch tab already.
23:10:27 <tusho> We just need to handle it
23:10:35 <tusho> Yes, arrow keys too.
23:10:40 <tusho> GregorR: But don't we just send arrow keys off to the application?
23:10:43 <ais523|sl> well, they'll be trapped in the edit box
23:10:44 <tusho> If so, then we do that already.
23:10:51 <GregorR> tusho: Yeah, same with tab though.
23:11:15 <tusho> GregorR: No. Tab should display as spaces up to the first column divisible by zero.
23:11:26 <tusho> (Or if that's the current one, then the next one.)
23:11:40 <tusho> Applications only catch tab if they put the console into raw mode or similar, I believe
23:12:22 <GregorR> tusho: It's always going to go to the app, even if it's also displayed, but that's two separate problems.
23:12:48 <tusho> Isn't that a problem?
23:12:58 <tusho> I tell you what. I'll just push the current focusy thing I have.
23:13:02 <tusho> Then you handle the extra keys. :P
23:13:40 <tusho> 'sh compile.sh' and admire my awesomeity
23:13:52 <tusho> Wow, you tested it already?
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23:15:56 <GregorR> tusho: No, I was just "rock-on"-ing to the push :P
23:16:10 <GregorR> tusho: I don't know if I like the onblur auto-refocus, that means you can't stop it with the keyboard.
23:16:14 <tusho> Oh, and I changed the font size because I hate you.
23:16:26 <tusho> GregorR: Well if you could stop it with the keyboard we couldn't use tab or similar.
23:16:32 <tusho> I think having to move the mouse slightly is worth it ;)
23:16:46 <GregorR> That's an excellent point :P
23:16:49 <tusho> I mean, if we don't trap everything it'll be a pain to actually USE it.
23:16:54 <tusho> Especially if we get a GUI at one point :-P
23:17:03 <GregorR> Let's focus on the immediate future :P
23:17:37 <tusho> GregorR: It's lovely and zippy, isn't it?
23:18:09 <ais523|sl> you should so implement X11 in JSMIPS
23:18:24 <tusho> ais523|sl: we will
23:18:37 <tusho> we'll implement a <canvas> gfx card driver
23:19:03 <GregorR> That particular "we" is aaaaaaaaall tusho :P
23:19:21 <tusho> ais523|sl: Imagine never having to endure SunOS!
23:19:27 <tusho> Just fullscreen your browser and enjoy KDE in MolassOS!
23:19:32 <GregorR> I was thinking about SDL-over-canvas, I'm pretty sure there are X11-over-SDLs.
23:20:00 <tusho> MolassOS: We'll get back to you.
23:20:04 <GregorR> And SDL doesn't have all the other assumptions that come with X11.
23:20:08 -!- ais523|sl has changed nick to ais523.
23:21:45 <tusho> GregorR: did you like that :-P
23:22:29 <GregorR> If we write MollasOS, that has to be the motto :P
23:23:02 <tusho> GregorR: MolassOS is JSMIPS' OS :P
23:23:33 <GregorR> Well, MollasOS would be the fully-GUI'd ridiculously-over-the-top version.
23:23:50 <GregorR> And I keep spelling "molasses" as "mollases"
23:25:12 <tusho> GregorR: The first graphical program we run should be a simulation of paint drying.
23:25:49 <GregorR> Or grass growing: We could simulate the process as fast as we can manage, and it'd still grow slower than real grass!
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23:28:15 <GregorR> So anyway, I guess it's time for signals D-8
23:28:31 <GregorR> Unfortunately, I haven't used signals in so long, I barely know how they work when implemented properly :P
23:29:26 <lament> does your grass growing simulation involve protein folding?
23:31:23 <tusho> GregorR: Can you rebuild your sh with my version?
23:33:09 <ais523> incidental fun fact: if in fortran you pass a number to a function, and the function then assigns to its argument, you alter that number everywhere in your code
23:33:30 <tusho> ais523: like forte?
23:33:40 <ais523> tusho: not quite the same
23:33:48 <ais523> it only affects literal occurences of that number, like C-INTERCAL
23:33:53 <tusho> Hehehehehehehehe: http://www.reddit.com/info/6nr83/comments/c04dznr
23:33:56 <ais523> not that number when it's the result of an expression, like Forte
23:34:09 <ais523> still, passing constants by reference and assigning to them?
23:34:26 <lament> more esoteric than most esolangs
23:34:33 <tusho> lament: which are dead
23:34:42 <ais523> tusho: there's a Windows version of Wine
23:34:47 <ais523> so you don't need cygwin
23:34:51 <tusho> ais523: yes, but it's still hilarious
23:35:17 <ais523> somehow I think esolangs will be around as long as programming languages are
23:35:18 <GregorR> tusho: Sure - I forgot to mention, I had to change and update the cross-compiler building process because GCC is annoying :( :( :(
23:35:33 <tusho> GregorR: I just picked my brains out with a fork!
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23:35:50 <tusho> GregorR: Say, want shell access to do it for me? :P
23:35:57 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:37:26 <GregorR> tusho: I accepted last time, but not under the condition that I do some bizarre pledge :P
23:37:53 <tusho> GregorR: Check /msg's.
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23:54:49 <augur> btw, for you kids that havent seen it
23:54:51 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTK0kFXJjd0
23:55:02 <tusho> augur: was that targeted at me
23:55:16 <augur> actually it was targeted at everyone
23:55:21 <augur> i call everyone "kids"
23:55:26 <augur> especially if they're older than me
23:56:53 <GregorR> Hm, GCC just compiled cfganal.c
23:57:32 <olsner> yes, that file has "anal" in its name
23:57:36 <augur> a cfg for analsex?
23:57:42 <tusho> presumably it just means anal about errors
23:57:44 <tusho> i.e. complains often
23:57:54 <olsner> it's short for control-flow-graph analysis
23:58:08 <tusho> then it's just extremely strict control flow graph analysis
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23:58:27 <tusho> YOU'RE LIKE OKLOPOL
23:58:36 <GregorR> Yeah, well okloFOK YOU TOO
23:59:02 <oklofok> where the fuck can i get something to drink at 2 am
23:59:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:59:51 <GregorR> But rather than rum-n-coke.
00:00:31 <oklofok> i've nothing against cannibalism, but i don't feel like alcohol right now
00:00:38 <augur> sippin on gin and (boy) juice?
00:01:28 -!- oklofok has set topic: The coolest ever international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
00:01:36 <tusho> oklofok: i don't think that's what he meant by man juice
00:02:17 <oklofok> i don't think that was what i meant with cannibalism.
00:06:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:11:22 <tusho> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=23897&start=40
00:11:24 <tusho> akanotu is demented
00:11:34 <tusho> especially dogs in text adventure games
00:11:37 <tusho> and especially dogs in IRP text adventure games
00:45:28 <GregorR> tusho: Hrm, with your autofocus, I can't select text >_>
00:46:15 <tusho> GregorR: Hm. I could add a 'LET ME SELECT TEXT' button.
00:46:18 <tusho> I'll do that tomorrow. :P
00:46:41 <GregorR> Or, more generally, a focus/defocus button.
00:47:16 <GregorR> And a small program could be written for the shell that uses your FFI to cause it to defocus :P
00:47:19 <GregorR> So you can just type "defocus"
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01:09:15 <GregorR> That's called "telling a story"
01:09:37 <RodgerTheGreat> "would someone please act as the interface for a game of epic adventure, puzzle solving and low cunning?"
01:11:13 <lament> Hello RodgerTheGreat, welcome to Lamentia! You are standing on top of a very tall pillar in the middle of the ocean. The pillar is about a meter in diameter. You feel dizzy.
01:11:57 <lament> Huge waves crash against the sides of the pillar, making it shake a little.
01:13:07 <oklofok> You see a bunch of killer robots flying towards you.
01:13:11 <lament> Your hands are empty. You are wearing some rags.
01:13:26 <oklofok> you can play oklonia later
01:15:16 <RodgerTheGreat> (if he says "that's not easy unless your eyes are prehensile", I'll know he's an infocom adventure)
01:16:26 <lament> You are old and physically frail. Your long hair and beard are a complete mess. The rags you are wearing are old, soiled and nearly falling apart.
01:16:48 <lament> An enormous wave crashes into the pillar, sending spray into your face.
01:18:08 <lament> The pillar you are standing on is made of nondescript gray rock and rises about 20 meters above the ocean surface. Its sides have been smoothed by the action of the waves.
01:19:53 <lament> To the west, you can barely make out the dark line of the shore and the rising black spires of a castle. To all other directions, you see only the restless ocean.
01:20:46 <lament> It suddenly starts raining hydrochloric acid. You feel your skin starting to dissolve.
01:20:51 <RodgerTheGreat> (hm. I wonder if this is like the intro to planetfall where I just have to pass the time until something happens)
01:21:35 <oklofok> it seems you guessed right :)
01:21:36 <lament> Some of your dissolved skin turns into a blob of green goo, a blob of red goo and a blob of brown goo.
01:21:43 <lament> Suicide is not the answer.
01:23:05 <lament> This green goo tastes delicious! Your hands melt away.
01:24:20 <lament> I don't know how to use that.
01:26:36 <lament> You thoroughly mix the red goo with the brown goo. As you're doing it, suddenly the mixture explodes! Your feet are blown away and you fall onto the pillar.
01:26:43 <lament> (Your score just went up 10 points.)
01:27:53 <lament> You are old and physically frail. Your long hair and beard are a complete mess. The rags you are wearing are old, soiled and nearly falling apart. You have no hands. You have no feet. Your skin has dissolved.
01:29:53 <lament> The ocean: You can't take that.
01:29:59 <lament> The castle: You can't take that.
01:30:06 <lament> The pillar: You can't take that.
01:30:19 <lament> The big red button: You have no hands!
01:31:44 <lament> Using your face, you push the big red button. The pillar starts slowly sinking vertically into the ocean.
01:31:51 <lament> (Your score just went up 25 points.)
01:33:08 <lament> You wait a little. As the pillar descends, you notice sharks impatiently circling it under the waves.
01:34:11 <oklofok> hasn't the rest of his body dissolved?
01:34:26 <lament> no, still two more turns before that happens
01:37:16 <augur> stop distracting oklo! >_<
01:38:53 <GregorR> Hahaha, I should write an adventure game in which you die no matter what, but you "win" if you manage to stave off death longer :P
01:39:22 <lament> As you pronounce the magical word, you're enveloped in a cloud of orange smoke and your surroundings change...Segmentation fault
01:39:25 <oklofok> the problem with adventure games is they're preprogrammed
01:39:43 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: took you forever :P
01:40:09 <lament> I'm hopelessly unimaginative
01:40:15 <lament> (also have to go home soon)
01:40:30 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi.
01:42:26 <RodgerTheGreat> it's more fun if different people are the player every time
01:42:56 <lament> if the "interpreter" is even remotely mean, that would end very quickly and painfully
01:43:06 <lament> different people trying to be the player, i mean
01:44:09 <lament> have you played Rematch?
01:44:58 <lament> try it, the cool thing about it is that it's 1 turn long
01:45:19 <lament> so it's one of the few adventure games that i actually managed to complete
01:46:11 <lament> http://www.wurb.com/if/game/1114
01:46:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I finished WHIPLASH (I think that was the name), and managed to get the "good" ending
01:47:44 <RodgerTheGreat> One game I set aside halfway through finishing was "Babel", and I should really go back and try to complete it
01:49:10 <oklofok> i don't like playing games if the levels are crafted by humans
01:49:31 <oklofok> i guess it should be the other way
01:50:06 <lament> same as music - why listen to music unless it's written by a human?
01:50:19 <oklofok> actually, it's probably the fact i'm exploring something another person may also have explored
01:50:28 <oklofok> so i'm not gonna find anything no one has ever foudn
01:52:05 <RodgerTheGreat> I remember when I played my first few text-adventure games, and it was absolutely enthralling
01:52:26 <Dewi> oklofok: hmm... in guild wars there are a few things you can find out in the middle of nowhere, with no advantage to finding them - strange fortresses with tough monsters guarding nothing at all, the corpses of a beast and a carriage lying in the snow...
01:52:32 <Phenax> I KNO RITE.. NETHACK FTW!1
01:52:42 <RodgerTheGreat> At the time my main computer was a used 386 laptop hooked up to a CRT so I could have color
01:52:56 <Dewi> oklofok: I'm sure lots of people find them, but I like that the designers occasionally find time to add pointless detail that relatively few players are ever likely to see
01:53:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I had dialup, and the only things I could play on my computer were things I could download via 56k modem and transfer to my computer on a floppy from the family computer
01:53:28 <oklofok> Dewi: i'd still prefer it if i knew it had been automatically generated
01:53:45 <Dewi> oklofok: yeah, that's just strange :)
01:53:47 <RodgerTheGreat> from this, I discovered text adventure games and the game that defined nearly 2 years of my life on the computer- ZZT.
01:53:57 <oklofok> perhaps it has something to do with my wanting to explore outer space civilizations and shit
01:54:11 <Phenax> i plaed everquest on dialup
01:54:15 <lament> i played ZZT for like five minutes total
01:54:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I still have a little archive of my favorite ZZT games
01:54:38 <Dewi> oklofok: doesn't it bother you that... it's essentially disposable? roll the dice again and its gone?
01:55:02 <Dewi> RodgerTheGreat: we used to push that little engine as far as it could go
01:55:13 <oklofok> and they exist in that they can be generated with the same seed
01:55:35 <Dewi> RodgerTheGreat: hmm. don't think so
01:55:51 <Dewi> that might be more familiar
01:55:58 <Dewi> I think I mainly played ones by the guy who wrote ZZT
01:55:59 <oklofok> Dewi: i think the disposability is what i enjoy, the fact it's an infinite source of new worlds
01:56:04 <Dewi> but we also wrote lots of our own little games
01:56:22 <Dewi> RodgerTheGreat: nice
01:56:44 <oklofok> though Dewi was Deewiant at first
01:56:54 <oklofok> but i now see he's the character from that monkey island game
01:57:13 <Dewi> oklofok: stupid information theory. The difference between information and entropy is... sometimes just a subjective opinion
01:57:33 <oklofok> what are you referring to, there?
01:57:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think I'll ever forget chrono wars- I had a terrible case of strep throat, and I spent a thursday, friday, and a weekend in my room with loads of water, tons of cough drops, and all 13 games. I played them back-to-back and it was an incredible experience
01:58:28 <Dewi> oklofok: well, the moment you compress or encrypt data it looks more or less like random noise
01:58:58 <RodgerTheGreat> oklofok: have you tried Noctis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noctis
01:59:21 <oklofok> Dewi: sure, but i don't get the reference, still :P
01:59:34 <Dewi> oklofok: the structure is there, but very well hidden
01:59:34 <oklofok> RodgerTheGreat: i haven't, and it's 4 am, so i'm not gonna try right now
02:00:20 <RodgerTheGreat> don't let the fact that it runs at 320x240 turn you off- it's gorgeous: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Noctis_Screenshot.png
02:00:40 <Dewi> oklofok: just Information Theory
02:01:29 <RodgerTheGreat> Noctis was created by the same guy that's working on Linoleum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleum_%28programming_language%29
02:01:29 <Dewi> oklofok: as used in the study of crypto, and data transmission, among other things
02:01:32 <oklofok> Dewi: it's the level creation algorithm that is the interesting part
02:02:15 <Dewi> oklofok: I suddenly remember civilization, it would generate your world at the start
02:02:50 <oklofok> but i didn't like the game
02:02:55 <Dewi> oklofok: as kids we developed these odd rituals to try to generate "good" worlds
02:03:12 <Dewi> oklofok: like a friend would insist that he tried hitting "F1" repeatedly and he got this awesome world
02:03:34 <Dewi> oklofok: early 90s computer games are magic to me
02:03:44 <oklofok> heh, you're probably the oldest on the channel
02:04:08 <Dewi> oklofok: I'm a stowaway
02:04:17 <Dewi> oklofok: don't tell anyone
02:04:17 <lament> heh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Linoleum_(programming_language)
02:05:18 <lament> oerjan is my grandfather
02:05:49 <oklofok> oh, right, lament, how old are you?
02:06:53 <Dewi> oklofok: because my birthday is right at the end of the year, I've spent most of my life associating with people older than me, I am accustomed to being the youngest person in any group of people
02:06:59 <Dewi> oklofok: being the oldest is scary
02:07:36 <Dewi> oklofok: but getting old sucks, everyone I know (including me) is so boring now, so I think I'm going to have to start being that creepy older person who hangs around
02:08:10 <lament> Dewi: it's never too late!
02:08:20 <Dewi> oklofok: so... hi! Let me know if you need anything from the liquor store, kids!
02:08:36 <Dewi> (are you guys american? did I localize that properly?)
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02:09:50 <oklofok> also, all the kids are asleep already
02:09:59 <Dewi> oklofok: hmm, localizing for you is particularly tough. Would you say you speak UK standard english?
02:10:18 <Dewi> (I'm sure USA thinks it has a standard english also...)
02:10:30 <oklofok> i'd say i try to speak american english, but am not that good at keeping it pure.
02:10:53 <Dewi> oklofok: would "liquor store" be the natural rendering for you?
02:11:35 <oklofok> yeah, i can't recall any other way to say it.
02:11:40 <Dewi> here in australia they are "bottle shops" for some reason
02:12:00 <Dewi> in the UK they are "off-licenses"
02:12:22 <oklofok> ah, i think i've heard off-licence
02:13:27 <oklofok> i guess the correct localization is viinakauppa
02:13:58 <Dewi> what is the kauppa part?
02:14:16 <Dewi> from wine, vino
02:14:31 <oklofok> viina is the stronger stuff
02:14:56 <Dewi> or still grape-based
02:15:08 <oklofok> well not "oh, right", i just assumed "liquor" would suffifr
02:15:31 <Dewi> oklofok: I am into esolangs both outside computers and in computers, but I'm not actually very good
02:15:51 <Dewi> oklofok: human languages
02:16:10 <oklofok> "esoteric human languages" would probably be conlangs
02:16:22 <Dewi> oklofok: the word 'liquor' doesn't exist here
02:16:47 <Dewi> oklofok: other than through american imperialism, obviously
02:17:36 <Dewi> oklofok: well, I don't know much about conlangs. I don't really like them
02:17:50 <Dewi> oklofok: part of the beauty of languages for me is how little control we have over their development
02:17:52 <oklofok> we actually have likööri in finnish, which obviously comes from liquor, since it's pronounced almost the same, but it means a different drink
02:17:53 <augur> conlangs arent necessarily esoteric, oklofok. :P
02:18:03 <oklofok> not that i actually know what it is, exactly
02:18:14 <augur> ithkuil is definitely esoteric tho
02:18:29 <oklofok> augur: no, but i assumed he meant that
02:18:44 <Dewi> oklofok: but you're in finland! :)
02:18:56 <Dewi> oklofok: like us Australians you are meant to drink a lot, I think :P
02:19:56 <oklofok> i'm a nerd, like chilling at home ircing and coding
02:20:26 <Dewi> oklofok: how old are you?
02:20:27 <oklofok> but as i'm in a band (well technically two), i need to drink occasionally
02:20:46 <Dewi> oklofok: still plenty of time to develop a drinking problem
02:20:51 <augur> oklofok: i thought that was the finnish way
02:20:57 <augur> being a nerd and coding
02:21:09 <augur> i mean, you guys have nokia and linux
02:21:14 <oklofok> i guess we're evenly partitioned into drunks and knurds
02:21:49 <oklofok> i think the correct term for the drunk/nerd partitioning is knurd
02:21:55 <oklofok> as that's where it originated, afaik
02:22:26 <augur> i just call those people Diggnation fans but whatever
02:22:28 <oklofok> i know the guy who composed the old beepy nokia tunes
02:22:30 <Dewi> oklofok: in australia engineers particularly have a reputation for drinking heavily
02:22:35 <oklofok> at least a great part of them
02:22:42 <Dewi> oklofok: as a software engineer, I get to be a nerd and also drink
02:22:57 <augur> Dewi: do you watch Diggnation?
02:23:15 <oklofok> well, i like coding when i'm drunk, i might drink more if i was less poor
02:23:36 <augur> coding drunk is dangerous
02:23:59 <oklofok> this one guy told about his experience coding high
02:24:04 <oklofok> don't know what he was high one
02:24:18 <oklofok> but the end result was a hello world with 50 lines of comments
02:24:28 <augur> im gonna be in eurolandia in two weeks, btw.
02:24:47 <augur> dude 50-500 comments? hahaha
02:25:01 <augur> well, atleast he documented well :)
02:25:03 <oklofok> well, i recall 50, but i'm not sure, and 500 would've been more funny
02:25:38 <augur> all my helloworlds have atleast 20 lines of documentation
02:25:44 * Dewi has to get drunk to write perl sometimes
02:26:07 <Dewi> when I'm sober perl and PHP make me too angry :P
02:26:25 <augur> and when you're drink you beat them?
02:26:26 <Dewi> but also, perl written while drunk definitely won't work
02:26:32 <augur> "LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO! ::SMACK::"
02:26:45 <augur> perl written sober probably won't work either.
02:26:55 <Dewi> augur: well exactly
02:27:27 <augur> if you go into #haskell, they have a bot that will answer questions about haskell
02:27:35 <augur> theres special syntax for questions
02:27:45 <augur> and the answer to any question is "Yes! Haskell can do that!"
02:28:19 <augur> 'question Can haskell code written while I'm drunk still run?
02:28:22 * Dewi did a haskell subject once
02:28:25 <augur> Yes! Haskell can do that!
02:28:29 <augur> only thats not the syntax :p
02:28:30 <Dewi> I went into the final exam thinking I knew haskell
02:28:36 <Dewi> but found out I didn't know it at all
02:28:42 <augur> haskell is cool, but fucking confusing
02:28:44 <Dewi> luckily it was an open-book test and I managed to learn a lot
02:31:29 <oklofok> they make a few senses occasionally
02:36:17 <oklofok> quick poll: what's your favorite amount of dimensions?
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02:43:30 <RodgerTheGreat> someone please suggest a male name that starts with T or TY
02:44:41 <oklofok> granted, it's silly, but quick polls are awesome.
02:45:39 <oklofok> going to answer or agreed with my opinion on polls in general?
02:45:48 <oklofok> well, acknowledged my opinion
02:48:45 <oklofok> then probably 4d, i like how you can almost visualize it, but it kinda stays mysterious still.
02:48:59 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, shit I didn't realize what the question was. I like 2d.
02:49:33 <RodgerTheGreat> 2d what I usually draw in and what I use to make games
02:50:03 <oklofok> same here, and i'm thinking if i ever get to first-person shooters or similar in my games, i'll do them in 4d.
02:51:41 <oklofok> it was a quick visual basic project with forced perspective
02:52:08 <oklofok> well not *that* quick, like 4 hours
02:53:22 <RodgerTheGreat> do text based games count as 1d? http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/ICEBreaker/
02:53:54 <oklofok> i'd say they don't really have a dimension, they are usually more general graphs
02:55:35 <oklofok> there's no inherent maximum amount of paths you can take from a certain activity cell, so there's no dimension
02:56:30 <oklofok> i like to think of n-dimensional thingies as graphs where nodes are connected to adjacent nodes
02:57:11 <oklofok> so, if a node has the position vector [a1, a2... an], it's connected to all [b1, b2... bn] where H(A, B) == 1, where H is the hamming distance function
02:57:24 <oklofok> and why am i being so mathematicianish all of the sudden
02:59:22 <oklofok> (god it's hard not to mention graphica now)
03:24:54 <RodgerTheGreat> mathematica is a kickass piece of software, I just wish the educational discount made it affordable. :/
03:25:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd pay somewhere in the $100-150 range for a copy, but they want $699 last I checked, which I just can't afford
03:27:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I think Graphica would be neater if they included the expression to generate each of the graphs next to it
03:42:07 <oklofok> RodgerTheGreat: graphica is my graph language
03:42:31 <augur> oklofok, go to sleep!
03:42:46 <augur> or whatever it was you were supposed to do
03:42:57 <oklofok> http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=185 <<< did this
03:43:02 <oklofok> well, yeah, but sleep time
03:43:23 <augur> i decided that elses arent necessary but beneficial for computation, so..
03:44:01 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt <<< RodgerTheGreat: in case you haven't seen this, n-dimensional binary hypercube in graphica
03:44:23 <oklofok> which is why i paste it every now and then in hope that someone tries to figure out how it works :P
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04:26:44 <RodgerTheGreat> thanks. Anything in particular you like or find interesting?
04:27:08 <ihope> I suddenly wonder what would happen if I supplied text and ideas and such and you supplied images and such and such.
04:27:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I have the script for this project pretty much nailed down, though (for issue 1 at least)
04:30:50 <ihope> Well, the "elementary, my dear static" and Dr. T with the chipmunk thing on his nose are nice.
04:31:22 <ihope> Flowers for Algernon! Brave New World! Heck, Lord of the Flies... all with protagonists rejected by society.
04:32:26 <ihope> Order of the Stick makes heavy use of dramatic irony. I'm pondering a character that's rejected by society for a reason obvious to everyone but him, then.
04:32:35 <RodgerTheGreat> and this story will contain at least some of the usual "outsiders making a stand" pathos
04:36:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm going for Dr. T as a tortured, bitter character on the brink of becoming a super villain, and Static-Cling Girl as a more optimistic character, somewhat ashamed of her abilities but generally good at making the best of a lousy situation
04:37:22 <ihope> Ashamed of her abilities but good at making the best of a lousy situation. That's a good one. Dr. T sounds like a Charlie Brown character, except more bitter and evil, of course.
04:38:39 <ihope> Do the characters try to prevent Dr. T from going over the edge?
04:39:07 <RodgerTheGreat> Generally I want to paint a transition from being frustrated that they're different to being proud of what they can do
04:39:34 <ihope> Why's Dr. T tortured?
04:39:51 <RodgerTheGreat> because he's been considered a freak for his whole life?
04:40:17 <ihope> Considered a freak because he's a tyrannosaur?
04:40:58 <RodgerTheGreat> it's kinda like X-men- they're mutants, or genetic throwbacks or something. I don't go into detail on that
04:40:58 <ihope> Does it end with the two characters eventually deciding to share a cup of coffee? :-P
04:41:16 <RodgerTheGreat> not end, but I was going to have part of a scene involve that
04:41:58 <ihope> Sounds interesting. And it would be reasonable to expect that the first strip introduces these guys and their personalities exactly as you've described them to me.
04:43:15 <ihope> "Hi, I'm Dr. T! I'm a tortured, bitter character on the brink of becoming a super villain!" "And I'm Static-Cling Girl, a more optimistic character, somewhat ashamed of my abilities but generally good at making the best of a lousy situation!" "I've been considered a freak for my whole life, and I'm really short! We're mutants, or genetic throwbacks or something! I don't go into detail on...
04:43:16 <ihope> ...that!" Except a little less blunt, I'm sure :-)
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04:45:28 <ihope> Yes, this does sound interesting. I'll be on tomorrow; I would like to read this.
04:45:37 <ihope> And it's about time for me to go to sleep, I think.
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09:27:31 <deveah> teh internets r fukkt today
09:28:38 <deveah> i have like the most cool internet speed - 0.2 kb/s yay!
09:32:39 <deveah> actually it's 385.9 kb/s
09:34:43 <GregorR> Use your tiny bit of Internet to use the Bourne shell in your browser: http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
09:47:13 <deveah> what happens when you download from FTP with 386 kb/s but google takes 8 minutes to load?
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12:18:08 <RodgerTheGreat> damn, this is neat: http://argonempire.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=2463958
12:33:28 <GregorR> Anybody live in/near Prague?
12:36:12 <GregorR> ... there's some other Prague?
12:41:24 <RodgerTheGreat> damn, dude- I thought everybody knew about secondary prague. I've been there like 3.8 times.
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14:57:51 <oklofok> so, i'm about to have a little monologue now
14:58:21 <oklofok> making this game, as i briefly mentioned earlier, where you program a bot that solves certain puzzles
14:58:28 <oklofok> so i'm making the language now
14:58:47 <oklofok> all my projects are usually language design in disguise
14:58:50 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p633241111.txt
14:59:15 <oklofok> here's all i have on paper yet, most of it is in my head
14:59:49 <oklofok> i have sort of mnemonics, a lot of "functions" with fairly complex semantics, that you can use to build conditions
15:00:04 <oklofok> that's really all there is to it
15:00:18 <oklofok> but that should be the code for a bot that tries to keep in the middle of a platform
15:01:12 <oklofok> there will probably be some kind of higher level symmetry construct later on, so you only need one statement for that
15:02:26 <oklofok> my idea is to make a massive amount of these mnemonics, the problem with making ai's for moving around is usually the constructs you would use when talking to a human are fairly complex, and not that precise
15:03:06 <oklofok> so i'll try to preprogram mnemonics for all kinds of complex concepts there are to moving around in a 2d level
15:05:28 <oklofok> oh, that was it, you can talk again
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15:07:12 <oklofok> ais523: if you read the backlog from a few minutes back, comments!
15:08:54 <ais523> oklofok: did you see the ICFP competition to write an AI for an ants game?
15:09:13 <ais523> basically, you had to write the AI in a Turing-machine-like lang
15:09:24 <ais523> that would have been basically impossible to write by han
15:09:43 <ais523> so the competition was effectively "write a good AI, and a compiler from a language of your choice into our language"
15:10:49 <ais523> http://alliance.seas.upenn.edu/~plclub/cgi-bin/contest/
15:11:05 * ais523 is annoyed that they can't use single-click/middle-click to copy and paste on Windows
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15:12:34 <ais523> maybe when the next ICFP is announced, we should enter a #esoteric team
15:12:52 <ais523> maybe two, actually, if both me and ehird were on the same team we'd use up the entire 72 hours arguing
15:14:01 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p261313163.txt <<< added subconditions, so you can do states implicitly
15:14:18 <ais523> one thing I like about the ICFP is that they never ever specify what lang to use
15:14:28 <ais523> normally they give a description of a lang they've invented for the purpose
15:14:32 <ais523> and tell you to write a compiler or interp for it
15:15:56 <oklofok> i'm trying to design the ai to be fun to program once you learn the mnemonics
15:16:31 <oklofok> do you find the solutions intuitive?
15:16:57 <oklofok> i would love to explain them, of course.
15:17:24 <oklofok> (more like, i'm begging for you to give me an excuse to explain them ;))
15:17:49 <ais523> but explain them anyway
15:18:05 <oklofok> always just triggers "always"
15:18:19 <oklofok> it can't be used but to set stuff, really, so it can be optimized away
15:18:20 <ais523> is it a reactive lang?
15:18:38 <ais523> yes, I was going to suggest event-based
15:18:43 <ais523> like most windowing models
15:18:44 <oklofok> made it long before i even heard of reactive programming
15:18:51 <ais523> that seems to be closest to what you're doing
15:19:12 <oklofok> except the conditions are very clever
15:19:25 <oklofok> you can basically do declarative programming with them
15:19:52 <oklofok> except there's not that much ways to do math, because i'm trying to keep that out altogether
15:20:05 <oklofok> you should be able to make a clever ai without knowing what vectors are
15:20:49 <oklofok> all the triggerings happen inside a bot, a bot is kind of a class, later you can add "objects", and their triggers will work internally to just them
15:20:57 <oklofok> but currently, all you have to know is there are globals
15:21:21 <oklofok> global variables, which actually are just members of the implicit outer class bot, like mov
15:21:44 <oklofok> ah, i haven't explained the structure of the bot
15:22:20 <oklofok> well, the bot is a square-shaped guy with the bottom (well, one of the faces) having wheels
15:22:38 <oklofok> so if you haven't fallen or anything, you can move around
15:22:47 <ais523> can it get knocked over
15:22:50 <ais523> so the wheels are on one side?
15:22:59 <ais523> and could it still move then?
15:23:12 <oklofok> nope, you'd be stuck with just wheels
15:23:35 <oklofok> you have two jets, on both bottom corners of your bot, facing down
15:23:42 <oklofok> well, you can't really get up with them either
15:23:52 <oklofok> i kinda wanted people to have to be careful
15:23:58 <ais523> no, because you'd knock yourself over in the wrong direction
15:24:10 <ais523> can you steer when levitating?
15:24:24 <oklofok> so you can fly pretty freely.
15:24:36 <ais523> presumably you fall down if neither are operating
15:24:41 <ais523> but what happens if only one is operating?
15:24:57 <oklofok> normal gravity, euclidian coordinate system, newtonian physics
15:25:18 <ais523> wow, that's a complicated simulation
15:25:36 <oklofok> jets just add a force to a corner
15:25:42 <oklofok> and collisions add an impact
15:26:08 <oklofok> both are easy to do, especially as the bot is the only moving object
15:28:10 <oklofok> ais523: code for left jet being on: add_impact(corner_where_jet_is, unit(corner_where_jet_is - corner_upwards_of_that) * jet_power)
15:28:22 <oklofok> not left, just code for a jet being on
15:28:34 <ais523> well, it still seems kind-of ridiculously complicated for a simple game
15:28:43 <ais523> will the final version still be ascii art?
15:28:43 <oklofok> add_impact(point_to_add_impact_to, vector)
15:29:40 <oklofok> with a "real number" coordinate system, i can get non determinism much more subtly
15:29:58 <oklofok> which is good, because i can gradually make levels less and less preprogrammable
15:31:10 <oklofok> you see, i want it to be a bit about adjusting the jumps so you hit just the right spot, especially in the beginning
15:31:29 <oklofok> and later, you start using your cam to get the details on the fly, and make the bot adjust its own movement
15:32:44 <oklofok> i was partly inspired by "i wanna be the guy", in some cases you have to have incredible timing and precision
15:32:58 <oklofok> unfortunately i just like the part where i find out the right sequence of movements
15:33:05 <ais523> games which you need to write an AI to play are interesting
15:33:23 <oklofok> yeah, but i'm going for interactiveness here
15:33:35 <oklofok> perhaps many games do, i don't really play that much
15:33:48 <ais523> I've written an AI for several games just for fun
15:33:55 <ais523> also I wrote one for Nibbles because the old one was awful
15:34:01 <ais523> and it's been accepted into Gnome now
15:34:28 <oklofok> you should make a list of your accomplishments
15:34:41 <ais523> well, C-INTERCAL is the main esolangy one
15:34:55 <ais523> although Underload gained a bit of a following, and still has one to some extent
15:35:24 <oklofok> i like pretty much all your langs
15:35:41 <ais523> well, I try to make sure they're good-quality before releasing them
15:35:55 <ais523> often I'll try to write an interp
15:36:01 <ais523> especially for the crazier ideas
15:36:13 <ais523> because having an interp helps to establish the boundaries of what's possible
15:36:31 <ais523> for instance, I'll definitely need a Feather interp before I figure out what the spec should be
15:36:34 <ais523> because retroactivity is confusing
15:37:47 <oklofok> when you first talked about feather, i had no idea what the use was for the retroactivity, then later half-invented it myself, when trying to solve the same problem :P
15:38:01 <oklofok> half-invented, because i realized what i was doing was what feather was doing
15:38:25 <ais523> yes, inheritance in classless OO langs can be tricky
15:38:30 <ais523> it has other advantages too
15:38:35 <ais523> all variables are immutable once created
15:38:47 <ais523> meaning there's no need to distinguish between pass-by-reference and pass-by-value
15:39:37 <oklofok> i was thinking about pushing and popping state for safe mutability last night
15:39:50 <ais523> safe mutability's an interesting problem
15:39:59 <ais523> here's one way to do an assignment that I thought of:
15:40:15 <ais523> allocate an unused flag in a global monad
15:40:23 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/straw.txt <<< straw is oop, _func is a member function that changes state, func doesn't change state, but copies
15:40:33 <oklofok> you can define all functions as either, and use them as either
15:40:43 <ais523> retroactively modify the thing you're assigning to have its previous value while that flag's false, and its new value while that flag's true
15:41:31 <ais523> change the flag's state when the command in question is re-evaluated
15:41:51 <ais523> the monad is needed to provide modifiable global state
15:42:01 <ais523> but the great thing about Feather is that it can be retrofitted onto the language
15:42:24 <ais523> by changing the syntax so that all functions get an extra argument and return it or a new version of it, transparently to the user
15:42:35 <ais523> most langs with eval have it so that code can be constructed dynamically
15:42:41 <ais523> Feather has eval so that you can modify it!
15:43:38 <ais523> the ironic thing is that you can modify eval (or at least, the Parser object), and the program is reparsed with the new parser and retroactively rerun from scratch
15:43:59 <ais523> and I /think/ that can be done without introducing an infinite loop
15:44:02 <oklofok> ais523: did you look at straw, and get my _func/func semantics? you might find that interesting
15:44:58 <oklofok> i've tried to think of ways to have a language where there's a simple parsing construct, and every time you parse, you run the program, which changes the syntax, and you parse again
15:45:03 <ais523> I'm not sure I understand straw.txt
15:45:12 <ais523> oklofok: you can do that in Feather
15:45:15 <oklofok> well, the language may be a bit confusing
15:45:21 <oklofok> ais523: yes, but a turing tarpit based on that
15:45:37 <ais523> well, I'm trying to make the base of Feather as tarpitty as possible
15:45:40 <oklofok> ais523: straw.txt is a piece of code written in straw
15:45:44 <ais523> not in this case because I like tarpits
15:45:54 <oklofok> Int is a simple integer class
15:46:02 <ais523> but so that it's possible to alter the very fundamentals of the language without missing anything
15:46:09 <ais523> because everything's based on just a few primitives
15:46:34 <oklofok> initialization, pred is the pointer to the predecessor, you just copy the predecessor of what you're making the integer out of
15:46:59 <ais523> ah, so that you can do after-the-fact inheritance?
15:47:26 <oklofok> i have no inheritance yet, currently it's just about the mutation thing
15:47:26 <ais523> i.e. instantiate an object from a class, modify the class, the object modifies too
15:47:39 <ais523> or instantiate an object from an object if you don't have classes
15:47:46 <oklofok> i don't have anything like that, it's meant to be a pretty static language
15:48:00 <oklofok> the intresting part is this
15:48:16 <oklofok> you can see this changes the state
15:48:32 <oklofok> it assigns the current integer into pred, adding one to the object
15:48:46 <oklofok> (actually should make a copy)
15:49:09 <ais523> does assignment work like in C or like in Prolog?
15:49:18 <ais523> if it works like in Prolog, you never ened copies
15:49:34 <oklofok> and it prints a+1, but a doesn't change
15:49:43 <ais523> ah, how does that work?
15:49:59 <oklofok> but, if you define the function as
15:50:17 <oklofok> but use it as func, it copies the state first, then mutates, then returns
15:50:23 <ais523> it's almost like ._ is an operator
15:50:49 <oklofok> not exactly, it's more like there are always an immutable and a mutable version of a function
15:50:59 <oklofok> _func does the mutation, func doesn't
15:51:13 <oklofok> you get a compile time error for doing mutation in a func
15:51:37 <oklofok> but, pred = this doesn't get an infinite chain, this will be the old state
15:52:27 <oklofok> all this isn't all that interesting yet, of course, but it means you can do things functionally, without actually reallocating things, when i add the push/pop state semantics
15:52:37 <oklofok> like, you can immutably set list!!5 = 3
15:52:43 <oklofok> but what it in fact does is
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15:53:18 * tusho ponders a script to automatically greet ais523
15:53:32 <ais523> tusho: I already started writing a script to automatically greet you
15:54:20 <tusho> ais523: by the way
15:54:20 <tusho> http://colloquy.info/extras/details.php?file=50
15:54:25 <tusho> someone write an s/// corrector ...
15:55:01 <ais523> could it handle the sort of s///s that I do
15:55:14 <ais523> I generally use far too many regex features
15:55:25 <ais523> and if it does, does it allow me to embed arbitrary Perl in my typo corrections?
15:55:30 <ais523> I can think of all sorts of evil uses for that
15:55:38 <ais523> unfortunately, Perl thought of that
15:55:54 <tusho> set cmdLine to "echo \"" & theText & "\" | /usr/bin/perl -e '($s=<>)=~" & theRegex & ";print $s'"
15:56:11 <ais523> and you can't interpolate Perl in a regex if the ?{} or ??{} that embeds it isn't a literal in your program somewhere
15:56:37 <ais523> I can type stuff in, and it is a literal in the program
15:56:47 <tusho> ais523: it only works for your messages.
15:56:50 <ais523> so there's a huge Perl injection hole right there
15:56:55 <ais523> oh, your own messages?
15:56:59 <tusho> and it sends off a correction
15:57:03 <tusho> that is, it says something like
15:57:06 <tusho> correction (s///): new line
15:57:20 <ais523> pity, I was hoping it would correct other people's statements if they did a s///
15:57:31 <ais523> so it would be possible to inject Perl into other people's IRC clients
15:57:39 <tusho> ais523: well, even if it did the perl would just run on your machine...
15:57:51 <tusho> no it hooks into the input field
15:58:50 <tusho> ais523: wtf, root wants to repeal partnerships
15:58:54 <tusho> what a load of shit
15:59:19 <ais523> tusho: well, given what a mess they've made
15:59:24 <tusho> ais523: move convo
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19:44:10 <Slereah_> Is the "coolest" related to the fact that it is "the only one"?
19:47:25 -!- tusho has set topic: The foremost international hub for enterprise esoteric programming language design, development and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
19:54:54 <GregorR> tusho: I still need mipses D-8
19:55:03 <GregorR> tusho: For pids, for signals.
19:55:24 <tusho> GregorR: No, you don't.
19:55:36 <tusho> You can do it nicely, I'm sure. :P
19:55:45 <tusho> GregorR: Anyway, get gcc working, damnit
19:55:54 <GregorR> pids in a conventional UNIX system /is/ just an array of processes.
19:56:12 <tusho> GregorR: Anyway, get gcc working, damnit
19:57:55 <tusho> GregorR: On this machine.
19:59:15 <GregorR> Yes, I know to what you refer.
19:59:33 <tusho> gregorr p3 71.237.179.105 19:57 - sh
20:03:10 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:05:19 <tusho> gregorr p3 71.237.179.105 19:57 5 botnet
20:05:54 <GregorR> Hm, it's supposed to block itself from the process list. Do you have a kernel with that vulnerability fixed?
20:06:23 <tusho> GregorR: Naturally. It's OS X.
20:06:35 * tusho watches GregorR recoil at the non-freeity
20:06:47 <GregorR> It's taking advantage of a vulnerability in OS X's also-F/OSS kernel.
20:08:21 <tusho> GregorR: Installed?
20:08:25 <tusho> (In /opt/jsmips, that is.)
20:09:04 * tusho promptly revokes your access
20:09:21 <tusho> GregorR: I love my welcome.
20:09:43 <GregorR> So anyway, adding mipses back.
20:13:51 <tusho> GregorR: As long as you get backspace and delete working. :-P
20:14:33 <tusho> 07:12:52 <ais523> maybe two, actually, if both me and ehird were on the same team we'd use up the entire 72 hours arguing
20:14:41 <tusho> don't you have to be there in person?
20:14:48 <tusho> that would be weird
20:15:57 <tusho> oklopol: your lang is cool
20:16:00 <tusho> I wanna play that game
20:16:07 <tusho> oklopol: make it use a level format so we can make our own
20:17:25 <tusho> btw oklopol http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/straw.txt what is that
20:17:50 <augur_> dont encourage oklopol
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20:19:58 <tusho> GregorR: delete&backspace
20:20:25 <GregorR> Not in the immediate future, no.
20:20:37 <GregorR> Not until termios in general is working.
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20:21:08 <tusho> Get signals working the
20:21:25 <tusho> GregorR: btw, your development speed is amazing
20:21:31 <tusho> you made me realise how slow I am :-)
20:21:42 <tusho> I write like 10 lines and go and browse the net and irc for half an hour
20:22:14 <GregorR> I've got signals half-implemented from last night.
20:22:23 <GregorR> I half-implemented them then realized I was using .num as .pid :P
20:22:33 <GregorR> And went DAMN IT DAMN IT DAMN IT
20:23:39 <tusho> GregorR: What's wrong with that?
20:23:59 <GregorR> It had already been removed :P
20:27:10 <tusho> GregorR: so just re-add mips
20:27:15 <tusho> and no rewriting needed
20:27:20 <GregorR> I did, I was just telling you that :P
20:27:41 <GregorR> I took that as an excuse to go to sleep, since it was 3AM :P
20:31:19 <oklopol> tusho: straw is a language of mine
20:31:25 <tusho> oklopol: i kinda like it
20:31:29 <tusho> but remove the explicit type declarations
20:32:11 <oklopol> those are *usually* omittable
20:32:43 <oklopol> but, nulls can be any type, and currently i want all variables' types to be deducable from their first use
20:32:43 <oerjan> oklopol is a straw man
20:32:52 <oklopol> but i may remove that obligation
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20:54:21 <tusho> oklopol: zonky doodles
20:54:28 <tusho> you'll thank me later
20:55:10 <oklopol> well, null is simply an atom.
20:55:24 <oklopol> because i didn't have any data types when i started making the integer class
20:55:45 <tusho> oklopol: remove null
20:55:47 <tusho> you will thank me later
20:56:05 <oklopol> so... i should build integers out of... nothing?
20:56:13 <oklopol> anyway, what's wrong with null?
20:56:29 <tusho> oklopol: null is the source of so many bugs when you didn't expect a null but get one anyway and try and operate on it
20:56:35 <tusho> the dances required to avoid it bloat code needlessly
20:56:42 <tusho> oklopol: and you should build integers like this
20:56:53 <tusho> class NonZero < Int;
20:57:09 <tusho> but you can take the successor of Ints
20:57:12 <tusho> and they hold 'Int pred'
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20:57:19 <tusho> which obviously can point to either a zero or a non-zero
20:57:41 <tusho> this also means that the 'null of integers' (0) is distinguished from other nulls and has a good type (specifically, Int)
20:57:43 <oklopol> there's no inheritance yet, but otherwise, yeah, that's better.
20:57:59 <tusho> yeah, I haven't seen a use of null that couldn't be replaced by something better like that
20:59:48 <oklopol> i return Nones all the time in python
20:59:55 <oklopol> and i don't ever have bugs
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21:00:11 <oklopol> you are right in that it's ugly, and never necessary.
21:01:10 <tusho> oklopol: yeah, it's mostly when you get more subtle stuff
21:01:15 <tusho> like, two classes interacting with each other
21:01:29 <tusho> and also the culture of python often means you end up checking for Nones as a matter of practice
21:03:34 <oklopol> straw is a really weird language anyway, although you cannot see it from that example
21:03:43 <oklopol> but as you can probably guess as i'm the one making it
21:03:52 <oklopol> but i'm not currently working on it, so you'll have twait
21:04:05 <oklopol> but i'll remove atoms, i was going to anyway, once i get integers
21:04:30 <tusho> oklopol: and then you can remove type declarations! yay
21:04:43 <oklopol> the current version already has strings, because parsing can be somewhat changed on the fly
21:04:50 <oklopol> so integers are kind of a must :P
21:05:23 <tusho> oklopol: can you make the default syntax not so javay
21:05:39 <tusho> oklopol: crazy idea,
21:05:45 <oklopol> what would you want to change?
21:05:50 <tusho> i think it might look a lot nicer
21:06:11 <tusho> just replace } with ;
21:06:46 <tusho> ret this.inc().add( a.pred );;
21:06:57 <tusho> it's like indentation syntax, but with no indentation requirements
21:07:59 <oklopol> you cannot change the actual syntax, so default syntax is a misleading term, btw
21:08:07 <oklopol> you can change the syntax of literals, mostly
21:08:16 <tusho> oklopol: well, whatever
21:08:19 <tusho> just do what I said :-P
21:08:38 <oklopol> well, tbh i like the java way :P
21:09:04 <oklopol> well, the usual way is what i would call it
21:09:21 <oerjan> "i love the java jive and it loves me..."
21:10:03 <Slereah_> What about the Brainfuck Boogie?
21:10:10 <tusho> oklopol: but look what you can do with my syntax
21:10:10 <tusho> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p612113313.txt
21:10:50 <oklopol> well i gotta say that's pretty cool
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21:12:14 <tusho> oklopol: I love this bit
21:13:16 <oklopol> tusho: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p614236522.txt in case you want to see the third level
21:13:31 <oklopol> i'm not sure if i'll actually have that simple levels
21:13:34 <tusho> oklopol: i assume there will be boss fights
21:13:37 <tusho> and there should be
21:13:39 <tusho> to get used to the language
21:13:47 <tusho> e.g. you could introduce a bit of the language at each one
21:13:52 <tusho> a 'tutorial sector' as such
21:13:58 <oklopol> well yeah, first levels are just about moving around
21:13:58 <tusho> oklopol: and allow user created levels
21:14:06 <tusho> i'll make a jump 'n shoot game with it
21:14:20 <oklopol> after flying, some timing & flow control
21:14:45 <oklopol> and after that, you start to generalize, because levels become non preprogrammable
21:15:11 <oklopol> like enemies, you can't just decide exactly what to do, because they move a bit randomly
21:15:14 <tusho> oklopol: I will make a game that has loads of evil robots floating about and honing in on your dude
21:15:16 <oklopol> you have wheels, and two jets
21:15:20 <tusho> and you fall down if they shoot you
21:15:23 <tusho> and there's platforms and stuff
21:15:25 <tusho> and you have to get to the top
21:15:44 <oklopol> did you read the code examples?
21:16:13 <tusho> oh, and I'll write a boss at the end
21:16:15 <oklopol> i'm not trying to make the language usable for the average dude, but it should be somewhat intuitive and nice to someone with programming experience
21:16:17 <tusho> that seperates into like 50 robots
21:16:19 <tusho> and goes back together
21:17:20 <oklopol> as a separate game or a user created level? :P
21:18:19 <oklopol> anyway, comments on/questions about the language, in case you have something on your mind
21:18:54 <oklopol> although it's not the language that worries me, it's the fact i'm not sure how impacts should be inflicted, and i'm not really the kinda guy who doesn't invent that stuff himself
21:19:31 <oklopol> wish i'd listened @ physics lessons
21:20:23 <oklopol> i actually stormed out of the mechanics class when the teacher started talking about radians and told us they were "a bit harder than degrees, so you should always convert them to degrees"
21:20:42 <tusho> oklopol: as a created level in the game
21:20:54 <oklopol> and committing to the act is just important enough for me not to take the whole course.
21:21:24 <oklopol> i'm not sure how i'll do levels, should i perhaps allow you to use python for that? i'm probably implementing this in python anyway
21:21:47 <tusho> oklopol: write your own language for it, but let you write python too
21:21:50 <oklopol> opinions, i mean, i may end up inventing another language for that too, otherwise.
21:21:51 <tusho> in case they get too complex
21:22:25 <tusho> oklopol: oh, and I'm about to start publishing a blag on code that I write and stuff and you should totally read it just sayin'.
21:22:34 <oklopol> well, perhaps a simple map editor, for moving pieces, predesigned enemies and stuff like that, and python modules for stuff like bosses
21:23:39 <oklopol> uhh the language is so awesome
21:23:51 <oklopol> i need to write down the stuff i invented on the way to the shop...
21:24:20 <oklopol> i have "phases", in case you've read the paste
21:24:35 <oklopol> then only events of that phase apply
21:25:00 <oklopol> but, you may have a hierarchy of phases, where a set of phases kinda inherit a phase
21:25:10 <oklopol> which means you can have a kinda ordered behavior
21:25:19 <oklopol> still have a rule for not running off a cliff
21:25:29 <oklopol> which is always on, on the bottom
21:27:12 <oklopol> so, you could for instance make something like a "safe mode module", which you just import, and it'll keep you from running into spikes and shit :-)
21:27:36 <oklopol> not that anyone will actually write something like that, but i like the thought
21:32:35 <tusho> oklopol: oh jeez I just came up with the best design for my blahhg
21:32:40 <tusho> why didn't I think of that before
21:33:33 <tusho> oklopol: it's very awesome
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21:58:24 <tusho> oklopol: decide something about my blahhhg for me.
21:58:36 <tusho> should it generate static files for posts and stuff or should it generate them on request.
21:58:45 <tusho> one's easier (generate on request) the other's better (static) :-P
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22:33:57 <AnMaster> generate on request but cache them?
22:37:04 <tusho> well obviously I'd cache it AnMaster
22:39:10 <tusho> oklopol: roll the dice yourself then
22:46:11 <augur> oklopol: you'd so hate the sugar i've made :)
22:46:42 <tusho> oklopol: should i align my blaagh to the left, right or center
22:46:46 <tusho> (REALLY IMPORTANT)
22:46:53 <tusho> of course not totally left or right
22:46:56 <tusho> a large margin would be there
22:47:04 <tusho> <---------------------------- like this much
22:47:36 <augur> so tusho, i've got a bunch a WHOLE bunch of sugar that effectively covers up this:
22:48:16 <oklopol> augur: i promise i will hate it
22:48:26 <augur> :{ <condition> ? @ = <value 1> : @ = <value 2> }
22:49:03 <augur> or for multiple multiple conditions,
22:49:35 <augur> :{<cond1> ? @ = <value 1>
22:49:35 <augur> <cond 2> ? @ = <value 2>
22:49:38 <augur> true ? @ = <value 3> }
22:49:56 <oklopol> well you haven't really changed anything
22:50:03 <oklopol> so i'm afraid i have to let you down
22:50:21 <tusho> augur: too many @s dude
22:50:39 <tusho> :{ <cond> ? <val1> : <val2> } <-- nicer
22:51:32 <augur> no, thats what it's sugar for
22:51:50 <augur> if ... then ... else ...
22:51:53 <augur> and a bunch of other stuff
22:52:15 <oklopol> ah well of course i hate that
22:52:40 <augur> oklopol, tusho doesnt know the details of the language so he doesnt know what :{ ... } is or why its necessary
22:52:49 <tusho> it occurs to me, augur, that you're trying to disguise its reactiveness
22:52:55 <tusho> in functional-esque sugar
22:53:07 <augur> no, im trying to make it easy to code things that aren't reactive in nature.
22:53:40 <augur> i mean, if you need to _set_ a variable locally to something conditionally, then it makes absolutely no sense to use reactions explicitly
22:53:49 <augur> thats just unnecessary garbage getting in the wayf
22:54:00 <tusho> augur: refactor the code to be reactive, then
22:54:16 <tusho> most problems can fit into paradigm P
22:54:24 <tusho> nicer than if there was a sugar for using paradigm X in paradigm P and coding in X
22:54:25 <augur> im not saying it CANT fit into the paradigm
22:54:45 <tusho> augur: almost never is there a case where it wouldn't be better to refactor
22:54:46 <augur> im just saying that some things are easier to do without having to think about the paradigm in question
22:55:20 <augur> deciding temporary values is not something that needs to be refactored to fit into the paradigm
22:55:31 <augur> because all it is is shit work, its nothing fundamental to the code
22:56:20 <augur> sure, you could write a thunk lambda and call it with conditional reactions, but that tells you nothing more than anything else does
22:57:33 <augur> furthermore, if you have two large blocks of code with different collections of reactions in them, each mutually exclusive, then its silly to have big lists of reactions all with the same conditions on them
22:57:51 <augur> that would look stupid.
22:58:49 <tusho> augur: if..end, ugh
22:58:56 <tusho> at least support {..}
22:58:57 <tusho> or indentation syntax
22:59:45 <oklopol> (straw has them, but it's not a pure language anyway)
23:00:12 <tusho> augur: i don't, fix your language.
23:00:29 <augur> tusho: i think i'll stick with your previous suggestion and do what makes sense to me :)
23:00:40 <tusho> augur: i think i'll kill you in your sleep
23:00:49 <augur> dont make me rape you.
23:01:44 <olsner> augur: mind you, you're speaking of raping a 12 year old
23:01:55 <augur> olsner: don't bring up tusho's age.
23:01:58 <augur> he doesn't like it.
23:02:02 <augur> on the other hand: THATS THE HUMOR.
23:02:12 <tusho> augur: actually, no, I don't mind it
23:02:26 <tusho> unless you're using it to explain how my arguments suck
23:02:35 <olsner> otoh, it would be much funnier if he *did* mind
23:02:35 <tusho> (with an alternate explanation of me being mentally retarded)
23:04:26 <olsner> hey, you're in #esoteric, you've got to be mentally *something*
23:04:51 <augur> i think we're all mentally superior to people who dont make programmig languages.
23:05:10 <augur> and maybe a little mentally fucked since we make weird ones.
23:05:23 <tusho> olsner: completely bonkers, yes -- but after the third time augur says 'if i didn't know you were 12 i'd guess, either that or you're mentally retarded' it gets kinda tiring
23:05:43 <augur> actually i said that only once, tusho
23:05:44 <tusho> augur: that's pretty pretentious, i assume you were joking about the superiority thing though
23:05:50 <tusho> and no, I can dig it up twice in the logs if you like
23:05:54 <olsner> hmm... boring for you, an in-joke for everyone else :P
23:06:19 <augur> pretentious? program language designers > all
23:06:26 <tusho> olsner: an 'in-joke' for augur, I don't mind other jokes about my age. actually, I recall ais523 complaining to him about it a few days ago too
23:06:51 <augur> ais complaining to me?
23:06:57 <tusho> augur: pretty sure, yes
23:06:57 <augur> sure, after you brought up your age and he thought i did.
23:07:01 <augur> which is telling, i think.
23:07:43 <tusho> augur: Actually, he complained to me about mentioning it first in private.
23:07:50 <tusho> And you'll notice I haven't since then.
23:08:02 <augur> i mean, look where this conversation is and i didnt even bring it up!
23:08:06 <augur> im not talking about it any more
23:08:07 <tusho> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.06.15 <-- first use
23:08:07 <tusho> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.06.17 <-- second use and ais523's complaint
23:08:23 <tusho> now, on a totally different topic..
23:10:51 <augur> i still dont think that having if...else statements is impure
23:10:56 <augur> its just a convenience
23:11:06 <augur> and theres a difference.
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23:12:15 <oklopol> ais523 clearly complained to augur, and didn't misunderstand anything
23:12:32 <augur> oklopol, he complained to me and did misunderstand. :P
23:12:53 <oklopol> he may have misunderstood, but i assure you it did not affect the result
23:12:58 <tusho> augur: considering he complained to me in private for bringing it up immediately after, I doubt it
23:13:03 <tusho> let's shut up about my age, k.
23:13:39 <tusho> I am in a quantum superposition of being aged 12 and being mentally retarded.
23:13:40 <augur> really tho, they're just conveniences
23:14:02 <tusho> (Hmm. 'Collapse my wave function, baby')
23:14:03 <augur> like i said, x = :{ ... } is just as good as x = if ... then ...
23:14:24 <augur> but if ... then ... us much easier to understand
23:14:40 <augur> and the latter will be preprocessed into the former
23:14:54 <augur> remember, my implementation isn't supposed to be (as) esoteric as oklopols.
23:15:07 <augur> im trying to make mine semi usable :P
23:16:11 <tusho> is there an icon in unicode for 'home
23:16:20 <oklopol> tusho: well, which are you?
23:16:28 <oklopol> and remember, we're not bringing up Age.
23:16:36 <tusho> oklopol: dunno, you're the one who observed me
23:17:24 <augur> guys guys guys, there is no way to determine how wave functions collapse, you can only observe the collapse and see what comes out
23:17:36 <augur> also, tusho you stole my fursona. :|
23:18:03 <tusho> [insert boilerplate furry joke]
23:19:15 <tusho> ⌘ place of interest sign!
23:19:20 <tusho> and also apple computer logo.
23:19:59 <tusho> "⌘ tusho in 2008, 2009"
23:20:14 <tusho> where the place of interest sign links to /, tusho to /about, and 2008 & 2009 to /in/year
23:20:29 <tusho> augur: i needed another year to test the look of it
23:20:37 <augur> i'd figure more in 2014 when you're legal but whatever
23:20:52 <augur> er.. the look of..what?
23:20:53 <tusho> augur: as i've said before, if I move to japan i'll be legal in august
23:21:00 <tusho> and that's my anti-blaahhg-header.
23:21:10 <tusho> oklopol: ... did you actually look that up?
23:21:12 <oklopol> for boys it's 16-18 or something
23:21:19 <tusho> if so, darn, I'll have to get a sex change operation first
23:21:20 <oklopol> i've checked legal ages of all countries
23:21:21 <augur> yeah but im not interesting in guys your age either so :P
23:21:35 <tusho> augur: apart from raping them illegally, right?
23:21:58 <tusho> purity > rape > sex
23:22:04 <augur> ofcourse. you were asking for it, dressing like that
23:22:05 <oklopol> i'm starting to doubt these inequaliries.
23:22:13 <oklopol> tusho: well when you put it that way
23:22:39 <augur> inequalities can always be trusted.
23:22:54 <augur> also, i like that you can implement < >= and <= in terms of just >
23:23:12 <tusho> are you playing with gregor's thing?
23:23:28 <augur> wow, i didnt even think of that
23:23:33 <augur> tusho, dont be such a faggot
23:23:41 <augur> im watching 61C at berkeley
23:23:44 <tusho> augur: i thought you were the gay one
23:23:45 <Phenax> SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADUPPPP!!!
23:24:09 <augur> 61C is berkeley's cpu hardware course
23:24:19 <augur> and the professors teaching the class using the MIPS design
23:24:36 <augur> which has only slt
23:24:49 <Phenax> one tyme my profesor did dat 2 and i was like holy shat i got like 4 routersa that are MIPS
23:24:55 <augur> it has no > >= or <= operators
23:25:01 <Phenax> routers are chippest mips boxes
23:25:03 <tusho> Phenax is in #loveclub
23:25:06 <tusho> best channel name ever
23:25:30 <augur> love club = a club for lovers?
23:25:42 <tusho> augur: a club (that you hit things with) for the purposes of love
23:25:43 <augur> = your club for loving?
23:25:51 <augur> tusho: gotta make sure, man
23:26:01 <Phenax> we're all lovers i nthe channel we have giant orgies and shit
23:26:18 <augur> sure you're not talking about #esoteric/#linguistics/#isharia/...
23:26:38 <Phenax> if u all dont mind 20 cox and no vagoo we can have an orgy
23:27:08 <tusho> well we're back to our usual topic i see
23:27:20 <augur> or as oklopol would say
23:27:23 <augur> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:27:32 <tusho> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:27:44 <Phenax> wats the best energy drink
23:27:49 <Phenax> preferably 16 oz less dan 2 dolla
23:28:03 <augur> bawls isnt reeeaaally an energy drink but its tasty
23:28:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
23:28:17 <Phenax> i dont like knowing my money is prolly majority paying for the bottle, lol
23:28:32 <lament> you scared oerjan away :(
23:28:38 <Phenax> my friend has liek 500 bawls bottles in his room
23:28:42 <Phenax> he has an epic collection
23:28:54 <Phenax> i dont really care how it tastes]
23:29:02 <Phenax> i go to class with like 2-3 hours of sleep every day
23:29:08 <Phenax> and need to wake up easily
23:29:08 <lament> augur lieks to sux bawls
23:29:16 <augur> thats all you care about
23:29:17 <Phenax> without using speed or cocaine
23:29:22 <tusho> lament: you beat me
23:29:36 <lament> just like i beat your mom last night!
23:29:37 <augur> lament, that'd be funny if it weren't so very very true
23:29:43 <Phenax> well i kinjda care about the taste but i mostly care about the waking me up part
23:29:49 <tusho> Phenax: your usage of language disturbs me ('less dan 2 dolla')
23:29:52 <augur> phenax: if thats what you're looking for, just get caffeine pills.
23:29:52 <Phenax> even if it only wakes me up for an hour or two and then crashes meh
23:29:53 <lament> augur: nah, it's still funny.
23:30:04 <augur> i agree with tusho
23:30:20 <Phenax> augur: im lookin fo sometin i can drink durin class i dun rly wanna pop any pills durin class
23:30:26 <Phenax> campus securiy canna b liek waddat
23:30:37 <augur> just dissolve the pills in your beverage of choice before hand.
23:30:47 <Phenax> ill disovle them in an energy drink lawl
23:30:49 <oklopol> Phenax: blend caffeine pills into a delicious wake-up goo
23:30:50 <augur> it's cheaper than getting a drink.
23:31:15 <Phenax> BUT I ALSO WANT TO FUCKIHN BURP IN MY PROFESSORS FACE AND IT NEEDS TO SMELL LIEK ENERGY
23:31:31 <augur> i suggest power thirst then
23:31:41 <oklopol> well, you will probably diarrhea on him with that goo?
23:31:50 <tusho> Phenax: your english makes me want to stab you.
23:31:54 <Phenax> no wai den hed mar kme down
23:31:55 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs
23:32:02 <tusho> {im lookin fo sometin i can drink durin class i dun rly wanna pop any pills durin class} <-- FUCKING KILL
23:32:20 <tusho> augur: total ripoff of the brawndo ads
23:32:37 <tusho> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbxq0IDqD04
23:32:48 <Phenax> i dun wan be a kenya cuz den i b black n shiz
23:33:00 <augur> KENYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:33:28 <augur> ok so firstly tusho
23:33:34 <augur> powerthirst is older
23:33:42 <tusho> augur: no, that was just when it was posted
23:33:45 <tusho> brawndo is from a movie.
23:34:16 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy sez google
23:34:24 <tusho> 2006, sez wikipedia
23:34:30 <Phenax> randall is betta dan spinelli olol
23:34:59 <augur> Despite the small release and lack of promotion, Idiocracy has grown to have a strong following. In 2007, Omni Consumer Products [15] (named after the fictitious RoboCop corporation) and Redux Beverages introduced a real Brawndo energy drink.[16] It is marketed online with a tongue-in-cheek YouTube advertisement featuring the voice of comedian Mark Little, inspired by one of his sketches called "Powerthirst."[17]
23:35:12 <tusho> augur: oh, okay then
23:35:18 <augur> IN YOUR FACE TUSHO. UNF.
23:35:21 <tusho> it just looked like a ripoff
23:35:30 <augur> well its the other way around
23:35:36 <augur> the brawndo ad was the ripoff
23:35:41 <augur> or, more accurately
23:35:50 <augur> its a redux by the same comedian
23:36:17 <augur> http://www.districtlines.com/Picnicface
23:36:22 <GregorR> tusho: I got rudimentary signals working.
23:36:31 <GregorR> Oops, forgot to commit the new newlib patch >_>
23:36:31 <Phenax> hey duz any1 remember dat scotish helicopta from dat 1 tv sho fo kids?????
23:36:36 <augur> im going to make a 400 babies t-shirt
23:36:48 <tusho> lament: make Phenax go away
23:37:00 <Phenax> dont h8 da playa h8 da game son
23:37:21 <Phenax> h8in on me cuz u innit got no skillz wat
23:37:44 <Phenax> it was j j the jet plain
23:38:45 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:41:07 <augur> hey lets all block phenax
23:41:36 <tusho> augur: he had stopped there
23:41:57 <augur> BUT THINK OF THE FUTURE
23:42:11 <Phenax> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooOOOooooooOOOOOooooOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoooooOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoooOOOOOooooOOOOoooooOOOOOoooooOOOOOOoooooOOOOoooooOOOOoooooOOOOOOooooooOOOooooooOOOOOooooOOOOOOoooOOOOOooooOO
23:42:57 <tusho> hey Phenax let's have gay sex in /msg
23:43:42 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Mycelium
23:43:56 <augur> a mushroom based esolang?
23:43:59 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-").
23:44:12 -!- tusho has joined.
23:44:27 <AnMaster> augur, nah, but inspired by befunge
23:44:35 <AnMaster> I guess the name too is inspired
23:49:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
23:49:16 <lament> tusho: what's a good hostmask?
23:49:47 <lament> it's a dynamic ip anyway isn't it
23:50:02 <Phenax> this is just a server that my irc client is on
23:50:07 <tusho> lament: Phenax!n=Phenax?
23:50:12 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out).
23:50:14 <tusho> Phenax: your english just improved markedly
23:50:20 <tusho> have you got multiple personality disorder?
23:50:48 <oklopol> lament: kick me while you have +o!
23:50:55 <oklopol> i get my kicks out of that
23:51:03 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:51:08 <tusho> kickban, lament, plz
23:51:14 -!- Slereah has joined.
23:51:22 <tusho> KICKBAN ME DAMNIT LAMENT
23:51:25 <tusho> oklopol: NO! KICKBAN!
23:51:30 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*.
23:51:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:53:12 <oklopol> lament: i don't think he wanted a permanent ban :P
23:53:43 <lament> well, we'll never know
23:54:16 <AnMaster> lament, please please unban it
23:54:48 <lament> AnMaster: tusho says, NO.
23:55:01 <augur> no, tusho is ehird.
23:55:03 <lament> he also says that people who want to unban him are idiots.
23:55:03 <oklopol> someone had to be the martyr
23:55:23 <oklopol> so people like Phenax would know what the consequences are for messing around
23:55:41 -!- someguy has joined.
23:55:49 <Phenax> SWEET!@ IO MESSED AROUND N HE GOT BAN :>>>>>
23:55:53 <someguy> you guys just banned my brother?
23:56:10 <oklopol> someguy: big/little brother?
23:56:19 <someguy> oklopol: i'm like 23, I lose count
23:56:28 <AnMaster> lament, you *could* have kickbanned Phenax
23:56:43 <lament> AnMaster: that actually seems like a good idea.
23:56:46 <someguy> lament: unban my brother you dickwad
23:56:52 <AnMaster> http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/
23:57:00 <augur> ehird pretending to be his own brother
23:57:15 <oklopol> lament: yeah motherfucker unban him or i'll kill you and your kids
23:57:24 <someguy> he just told me over /msg, actually
23:57:31 <augur> AINT YOU GOT PHUDE IN BRITAINLAND
23:57:56 <lament> someguy: you're in the same house yet you talk on IRC?
23:58:09 <someguy> lament: like we'd MOVE between ROOMS
23:58:34 <oklopol> i often talk to my gf via irc while sitting next to her
23:58:40 <oklopol> who wants to talk when you can type
23:59:06 <someguy> lament: unban my brother would you
23:59:16 <GregorR> echo hi | ( read x ; echo $x ) works now 8-D
23:59:21 <someguy> lament: because it's midnight, duh.
23:59:39 <GregorR> tusho: Gee, you logged off ...
23:59:58 <someguy> GregorR: tusho is my brother
00:00:02 <someguy> lament banned him for some reason
00:00:38 <GregorR> <tusho> KICKBAN ME DAMNIT LAMENT
00:01:07 <someguy> is that a reason to actually kickban him? i think not
00:03:42 <oklopol> looks like tusho finally went too far
00:03:58 <someguy> AnMaster: same irc bouncy thingy
00:04:02 <oklopol> yeah, that's weird, isn't it illegal to have the same name for two kids?
00:04:16 <AnMaster> someguy, he used n=tusho though
00:04:26 <someguy> AnMaster: i guess he overrid the default then
00:04:32 <someguy> which apparently is ehird, I guess
00:04:45 <AnMaster> someguy, so you aren't as computer literate as he is?
00:05:10 <someguy> AnMaster: you could say that, you could also say I'm very lazy
00:05:24 <AnMaster> I'd call ehird pretty lazy too
00:05:43 <AnMaster> what with him prefering python to C and such
00:06:14 <AnMaster> someguy, please tell him that you think cfunge is very nice
00:06:26 <someguy> AnMaster: he probably reads logs, you know
00:06:50 <lament> someguy: you realize that as soon as i unban him, he would come back and ask to be banned again?
00:07:02 <AnMaster> you know he *could* log on with a different nick
00:07:06 <someguy> lament: oh come on, he's not that silly
00:07:46 <AnMaster> * lament sets modes [#esoteric +b *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*]
00:08:08 <someguy> why should he have to? just unban him jeez
00:08:54 <someguy> lament: just unban my brother
00:08:55 <AnMaster> lament, "all"? you mean me too?
00:09:00 <lament> No. You're all nuts except oklopol.
00:09:21 -!- lament has set channel mode: -b *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*.
00:09:45 -!- tusho has joined.
00:09:47 <Slereah> AnMaster : Becayse you're dangling between my legs.
00:10:02 <Slereah> tusho : This means exactly what you think it means.
00:10:21 <Slereah> You will not silence the truth, AnMaster
00:10:44 -!- someguy has quit ("bye").
00:11:07 <tusho> AnMaster: i don't think my brother is interested in esolangs
00:11:12 <tusho> (Regardless of how much he exists, which is none.)
00:11:32 * tusho watches lament ban him for GROSS IMPERSONATION
00:11:39 <AnMaster> lament, well I could help sharing the burden of being an op if you want
00:12:19 <lament> tusho: here's a better idea
00:12:21 -!- lament has set channel mode: +o tusho.
00:12:25 <lament> there, now you can ban yourself
00:12:31 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o lament.
00:12:32 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +b lament!*@*.
00:12:37 <AnMaster> (and yes I'm op in other places, even oper on a network, so I know how irritating all those "could I be an op/oper please" questions are!)
00:13:02 <tusho> AnMaster: am i DOING IT WRONG, though?
00:13:17 <oklopol> lament's brother lameguy is gonna be so pissed.
00:13:23 <tusho> AnMaster: i was banning a disruptive character who bans people without warning. duh.
00:13:48 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oklopol.
00:13:55 <tusho> let's start a new era of #esoteric, oklopol
00:14:02 <tusho> one free from the draconian constraints of lament!
00:14:14 <Slereah> A CHAN THAT WILL LAST A THOUSAND YEAR!
00:14:34 <tusho> oklopol: are you with me?? huh??
00:14:35 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o oklopol.
00:14:46 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o Slereah.
00:15:22 <tusho> well. this is cool.
00:15:33 <tusho> AnMaster: you'll unban lam
00:15:36 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oklopol.
00:15:45 <Slereah> Just give ops to everyone, it will be faster.
00:15:49 <tusho> AnMaster: you wanted me to
00:15:54 <tusho> Slereah: nah, i prefer exclusive cabals
00:16:01 <AnMaster> tusho, I wanted him to unban you too
00:16:40 <AnMaster> in fact I'm on my own side, the side of freedom and unbanning
00:16:58 <tusho> AnMaster: we don't stand for that side here
00:17:04 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +b AnMaster!*@*.
00:17:14 <tusho> what a fitting way to go out.
00:17:17 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -b AnMaster!*@*.
00:17:23 <Slereah> What if I banned everyone?
00:17:27 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o Slereah.
00:17:30 <tusho> good luck with that
00:17:40 <AnMaster> tusho, please I ask you to unban lament
00:17:44 * tusho considers writing a bot that ops just him when he joins and putting it in here, then opping it
00:18:05 <AnMaster> tusho, there are ways to get around it using chanserv to ask you to unban yourself
00:18:14 <AnMaster> I don't know if lament got that access
00:18:14 <tusho> yeah but he's not using them
00:18:52 <AnMaster> lament if you are reading the logs run:
00:19:00 <tusho> AnMaster: i doubt he cares
00:19:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: i doubt he doesn't know
00:19:29 <oklopol> he was one of the founders here
00:19:40 <oklopol> so i'm pretty sure he knows some shit about freenode
00:20:42 <Slereah> Can we drop the whole mod thing and just discuss stupid languages?
00:21:20 -!- oppiebot has joined.
00:21:24 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oppiebot.
00:21:27 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho_.
00:21:50 -!- tusho has joined.
00:21:51 -!- oppiebot has set channel mode: +o tusho.
00:21:58 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
00:22:00 <Slereah> Fun fact : Concurency notation and BNF notation do not go well together.
00:22:01 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to tusho.
00:22:15 <tusho> ok, now all we need is oppiebot to keep its connection
00:22:20 <tusho> we need one op at all times
00:22:20 <augur> tusho, does it work for your ip only or just your nick?
00:22:25 <tusho> to restore oppiebot's stuff
00:22:34 <tusho> augur: err, my nick... nice exploit there
00:22:38 <Slereah> For instance, concurent process are defined by P ::= [...] | P1 | P2 | [...]
00:22:59 <tusho> augur: how do I check services identification?
00:23:01 <augur> slereah: im not really sure BNF is meant to model processes...
00:23:08 <augur> tusho: no fucking clue. i dontknow shit about irc.
00:23:16 <Slereah> No, but it is meant to describe syntax
00:23:20 <Slereah> And processes have a syntax
00:23:29 <augur> eh.. processes i wouldnt say have syntax
00:23:41 <augur> only code has syntax
00:23:59 <Slereah> The pi book get around this by making the BNF | longer than the concurrency |
00:24:05 <augur> no, pi calculus is a language that represents a model :P
00:24:11 <Slereah> But at a glance, it's not obvious
00:24:21 <Slereah> Oh stop nitpicking, you cockgoblin.
00:24:27 <augur> but theres a difference!
00:24:38 <augur> the map is not the territory!
00:24:49 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:24:54 -!- oppiebot has joined.
00:24:57 <Slereah> But in a book, they use notations, augur
00:25:02 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o oklopol.
00:25:02 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oplopol.
00:25:08 -!- oplopol has changed nick to oklopol.
00:25:08 <Slereah> They can't put abstract concepts in a book.
00:25:13 <tusho> once i get this working
00:25:21 <augur> thats just weird, slereah.
00:25:42 <augur> BNFs shouldnt define processes, only languages
00:25:53 -!- tusho has changed nick to dasf.
00:25:55 <Slereah> And it defines the language to express processes
00:26:00 -!- augur has changed nick to tusho_.
00:26:00 -!- tusho has joined.
00:26:10 -!- tusho has left (?).
00:26:10 -!- tusho has joined.
00:26:22 -!- tusho has left (?).
00:26:22 -!- tusho has joined.
00:26:25 <Slereah> It's not actually pi calculus in the chapter I'm reading, it's the more restricted "concurent processes"
00:26:26 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
00:26:33 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to augur.
00:26:37 <augur> so it works then tusho?
00:27:21 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:27:25 -!- oppiebot has joined.
00:27:26 <oklopol> parents decided to buy me about $800 worth of books as a present
00:27:49 -!- tusho has joined.
00:27:55 -!- tusho has left (?).
00:28:00 <Slereah> Are you going to buy a hundred cheap books, or eight expensive ones?
00:28:06 -!- tusho has joined.
00:28:12 <tusho> i wish to fuck things in the ass
00:28:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -b lament!*@*.
00:28:14 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
00:28:20 -!- lament has joined.
00:28:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
00:28:30 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o dasf.
00:28:39 <dasf> i just wrote that bot for nothing!
00:28:39 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
00:28:53 <lament> what did you write it in?
00:28:54 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:29:06 <dasf> lament: python, you like python right?
00:29:11 <augur> lol. dasf, you shouldn't de-opped the bot :P
00:29:19 <lament> right, i won't ban you then :)
00:29:21 <dasf> how will you recover from my emotional damage lament?
00:29:27 <dasf> augur: darn, that was the bug then
00:29:37 <lament> dasf: the question is when, not how
00:29:45 <dasf> lament: when, then
00:29:55 <dasf> fuck you lament
00:30:05 <dasf> fuck you even more, lament
00:30:24 <dasf> lament: how about opping me so i can ban myself for such gross conduct
00:30:48 <lament> after last time, i think i learned not to trust you with ops
00:30:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o dasf.
00:31:00 <dasf> lament: i was posessed by demons last time
00:31:41 -!- oppiebot has joined.
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00:33:38 -!- tusho has joined.
00:33:41 <Slereah> Tusho, stop being the scourge of the earth.
00:35:35 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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00:36:55 <tusho> no, augur, it means dickwad
00:37:10 <augur> its too pretty a name to mean dickward
00:37:25 <tusho> i was lying through my teeth
00:38:24 <oklopol> if urbandictionary doesn't know it, it doesn't exist
00:38:37 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:38:46 <oklopol> well, that is what i've always assumed
00:38:48 <augur> ::grabs slereahs tusho::
00:40:15 -!- oppiebot has joined.
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00:40:20 -!- tusho has left (?).
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00:40:44 <Slereah> It is somehow incredible that it does not feature man on man sodomy, but it's still a good movie.
00:40:56 -!- tusho has left (?).
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00:40:56 -!- oppiebot has set channel mode: +o tusho.
00:41:00 -!- tusho has quit ("leaving").
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00:41:29 <tusho> oklopol: I like your new esolang
00:42:01 <augur> whats oklopols new esolang?
00:42:56 <augur> its not oklopols, its both of ours :P
00:43:15 <augur> its oklopol and my's babeh
00:43:22 <augur> im not sure which of us is the mother tho
00:43:31 <augur> oklopol, did i make you preggorz, or did you make me preggorz?
00:44:03 <tusho> obviously it is magical
00:44:07 <Slereah> I think you came up with the idea.
00:44:31 <augur> i came up with a lot of it, especially syntax, and oklopol provides vast insight
00:44:51 <Slereah> Then let me give you some advice.
00:44:54 <augur> so i spooged esocum into oklopol and he got preggorz?
00:44:59 <Slereah> The same I give for every new esolang.
00:45:07 <augur> its not an esolang either :P
00:45:11 <Slereah> Make an instruction that will play the Super Mario theme.
00:45:21 <tusho> apart from your crappy implementation of it
00:45:24 <augur> slereah: BRILLIANT. MUST HAVE.
00:45:44 <Slereah> Fact : My first esolang was capable of playing the Super Mario theme.
00:45:57 <Slereah> Although I only made a program for the Monkey Island theme
00:46:50 <augur> tusho: what about the language do you like?
00:47:08 <tusho> augur: i could make a silly game with it easily
00:47:23 <augur> what sort of game? :P
00:47:48 <Slereah> "Everytime an esolang is a brainfuck derivative, take a shot"
00:47:59 <tusho> a silly jumpy thingy.
00:48:14 <oklopol> tusho: reactance is mine and augur's, like straw and ob preferable, for exclusive liking of my esolangs
00:48:24 <oklopol> ob is the one i use for the obt game
00:48:26 <augur> slereah: i dont think there are any other reactive esolangs
00:48:43 <tusho> augur: you just admitted it's an esolang
00:48:49 <augur> oklopol, slereah has decided that it was you who got preggorz with reactance
00:48:58 <Slereah> For every original esolang, drink the whole bottle
00:49:00 <augur> tusho: you wont let it go so i might as well.
00:49:11 <augur> slereah: woo, i guess we get drunk tonight :o
00:49:22 <oklopol> augur: weren't you the butt receiver type exclusively?
00:49:31 <augur> yeah but not according to slereah
00:49:40 -!- ihope has joined.
00:49:48 <oklopol> ihope: ;DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
00:50:02 <ihope> Yay, I'm liked :-)
00:50:40 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oklopol.
00:51:00 <ihope> If I mention rootnomic, I imagine I'll get banned. :-P
00:51:02 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o ihope.
00:51:12 -!- ihope has set channel mode: -oo oppiebot tusho.
00:51:12 <tusho> if oppiebot leaves
00:51:16 -!- tusho has left (?).
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00:51:20 -!- ihope has set channel mode: +o oppiebot.
00:51:25 -!- tusho has left (?).
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00:51:26 -!- oppiebot has set channel mode: +o tusho.
00:51:28 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o ihope.
00:51:30 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o oklopol.
00:52:04 <augur> anyone ever heard aza raskin talk?
00:52:13 <augur> he sounds like a kid trying to be a grownup
00:52:16 <augur> its fucking annoying
00:52:29 <tusho> whatever. the stuff he does is cool
00:52:30 <augur> because theres a huge difference between a kid trying to sound mature, and actually BEING mature
00:52:42 <augur> i agree, his stuff is great, but his manner of speech is annoying
00:53:11 <augur> im actually going to be incorporating a lot of humane interface ideas into something im working on
00:54:09 <Slereah> I'm too skinny to have a flabby butt.
00:54:13 <tusho> lololololololololol
00:54:20 <tusho> i didn't actually think of that when i chose this name
00:54:34 <tusho> i just picked something nice looking that didn't get anything much on google
00:54:44 <tusho> augur: oh, i was pronouncing it tuh-show
00:58:22 <augur> http://xkcd.com/437/
01:01:11 <augur> tusho, have you watched SICP yet?
01:01:52 <Slereah> Because it is full of urine
01:02:00 <augur> your moms full of urine
01:03:33 <augur> tusho, do you have the full syntax and evaluation model for reactance?
01:03:59 <augur> you -> #reactance and ill provide
01:04:53 <augur> so you can start writing your game. :P
01:05:22 <augur> ok, but itll clutter the place. :P
01:06:13 <augur> ok so: assignments like var = expression
01:06:20 <augur> sets var to the current value of expression
01:06:56 <augur> var := expression creates a new variable var in the current frame if one doesnt exist
01:07:04 <augur> sort of like schemes define
01:07:36 <augur> exp -> var is a reaction
01:07:42 <lament> did you choose := because it looks like cock and balls?
01:07:54 <augur> no, we chose := because it was a simple modification of =
01:08:07 <tusho> exp -> var is a reaction ok
01:08:24 <augur> any time one of the variables in exp changes its value, var is immediately updated
01:08:30 <augur> if we says x*x -> y
01:08:38 <augur> y is immediately updated to 25
01:08:48 <augur> y <- x*x is equivalent
01:09:07 <augur> :-> and <-: make new scopes for their target variables
01:09:26 <augur> x = y is to x := y what y -> x is to y :-> x
01:09:49 <augur> you also have conditional reactions like x > 5 ? x -> y : x -> z
01:10:21 <augur> which says that if x is greater then y, all changes of x's value goes into y
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01:10:25 <augur> otherwise they go into z
01:10:30 <tusho> what about functiony thingies
01:10:36 <augur> well just wait for those :p
01:10:40 <tusho> mouse(x,y) -> cursor(x,y)
01:10:46 <augur> oh, those arent functiony things
01:10:55 <augur> ok so for that you have to understand shorthands
01:11:21 <augur> similarly, x,y -> z,w is short for
01:11:37 <tusho> i'm familiar with that syntax
01:11:43 <augur> so doing something like
01:11:51 <augur> mouse.(x,y) -> thing.(x,y)
01:12:01 <tusho> mouse.x -> thing.x
01:12:07 <augur> mouse.y -> thing.y
01:12:20 <tusho> mouse.(x,y) -> thing.(x/2,y/2)
01:12:22 <augur> so we allow this sort of paralleling to be deep within paranthesizing
01:12:30 <tusho> that makes you have to move the mouse twice to get one move of the thing
01:12:37 <augur> foo.(a,bar.(b,c)) is valid, for instance
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01:13:05 <augur> that would be a declarative statement, and we dont know if we're going to have declarativity
01:13:14 <augur> the targets of reactions can only be variables
01:13:32 <augur> if you want thing to move half as far as mouse
01:13:38 <tusho> augur: have declarativity
01:13:42 <augur> mouse.(x,y)/2 -> thing.(x,y)
01:13:44 <tusho> mouse.(x,y) -> thing.(x/2,y/2) = my dream
01:13:47 <Slereah_> Fun fact : The pi book talks of reaction :o
01:13:54 <Slereah_> Although I doubt it's the same.
01:14:00 <augur> sure, but that wouldnt do what you said anyway, tusho :p
01:14:49 <augur> damnit, i have to go in five minutes
01:14:49 <tusho> how could i, say, make 'enemy' always move away from 'player'
01:14:53 <augur> let me finish with this :P
01:14:55 <tusho> given (enemy,player).(x,y)
01:15:06 <augur> so functions are just lambdas
01:15:24 <augur> you do @ -> argnames
01:15:47 <augur> that says "put the passed args into a, b, c"
01:15:54 <tusho> augur: that's like perl
01:15:58 <tusho> specifically, perl's @_ array
01:16:06 <augur> to output, you do val -> @
01:16:16 <augur> so a lambda that adds might be
01:16:36 <augur> you can also ofcourse do @ = ...
01:16:40 <tusho> augur: needs moar sugar
01:16:48 <augur> to apply a lambda, you do
01:16:56 <augur> : lambda arg1 arg2 ...
01:17:06 <augur> i actually want to sugar it like
01:17:22 <augur> i dont know if oklopol is in agreement tho
01:17:30 <tusho> augur: my sugar is more awesome
01:17:33 <augur> ok so heres how function application works tho
01:17:38 <tusho> anyway answer my q. :P
01:17:55 <augur> you said "given ..."
01:18:02 <augur> there was a line above it
01:18:51 <augur> move away like if player moves towards enemy, enemy moves in the same direction, maintaining distance?
01:18:57 <augur> you'd do some magic. :p
01:19:07 <augur> ok so function application can apply in reactions too
01:19:12 <tusho> augur: I just mean,
01:19:17 <augur> says if a ever changes, put :foo a into b
01:19:18 <tusho> the enemy's x and ys are always away from the player
01:19:20 <tusho> what reaction is that?
01:19:26 <augur> itd be slightly more complicated
01:19:30 <tusho> player.(x,y) -> enemy.(x+1,y+1)?
01:20:03 <augur> any reaction like that will maintain a constant relative position
01:20:21 <augur> which means if player goes away from enemy, enemy follows
01:20:34 <augur> if player moves sideways, the so does enemy
01:20:38 <tusho> here's a way to fix that
01:20:42 <tusho> give a history of the same reactions
01:20:54 <tusho> so that you could find the players direction by the previous trigger of that reaction
01:21:05 <augur> we're not entirely sure how thats going to look
01:21:09 <augur> but something like
01:21:13 <tusho> specifically, if player's x is one more than the previous time, then make your x less
01:21:25 <tusho> what's it got to do with delays augur
01:21:28 <augur> or maybe x{-5} -> y
01:21:40 <tusho> nothing to do with delays
01:21:56 <tusho> you could see the player.x and player.y
01:22:00 <tusho> from the last time it was triggered
01:22:06 <tusho> and thus, depending on how it's changed
01:22:09 <tusho> determine their direciton
01:22:11 <augur> thats just delay one change
01:22:21 <tusho> augur: how do you get the last value, then?
01:22:24 <tusho> you need the topmost value and the second topmost
01:22:30 <augur> tho yes, having x{t} would be more convenient
01:22:31 <tusho> and in other cases often more
01:22:34 <augur> we've not worked it all out yet
01:22:59 <augur> also, we need some way of doing just change-detection i think.
01:23:03 <oklopol> for "moving away from", you need to access old state.
01:23:04 <augur> i need to get going
01:23:30 <tusho> oklopol: that's what I said
01:23:30 <augur> oklopol, explain how function calls behave, as reaction instantiation
01:24:06 <augur> an dont fuck it up, otherwise i'll poke you. :P
01:24:11 <tusho> oklopol: and explain how to access old state for left expr!
01:24:23 <augur> you cant access values for whole expressions
01:25:28 <oklopol> tusho: that's not defined yet, at all.
01:25:38 <oklopol> i mean, except for delayed stuff
01:25:38 <tusho> oklopol: well, give me a random idea
01:26:04 <augur> we're maybe using delays, or we're using x{t}
01:26:10 <tusho> neither makes any sense to me, augur
01:26:22 <augur> x{-5 ms} would be the value of x 5ms ago
01:26:32 <augur> x{-5} would be the value of x 5 changes ago
01:26:37 <augur> x{-1} would be the last value
01:26:44 <augur> x{0} is the current value
01:27:16 <augur> which is semantically identical to a delay.
01:27:59 <oklopol> #enemy.(x,y) + (player.(x,y) - %player.(x,y)) -> enemy.(x,y), where # and % are random prefixes, # means "do not trigger on change on this expression" and % means "access the result before change in expression's result"
01:28:18 <oklopol> i failed there, because now it'd move the same way as player
01:28:41 <oklopol> and, this doesn't work, because tuples aren't data, i don't know how to make vecotrs
01:29:49 <oklopol> # was needed there to avoid infloop, % is when you need derivative of change
01:29:56 <oklopol> well, not derivative of change
01:30:05 <oklopol> that's a second order derivative
01:30:12 <oklopol> anyway, that was very random, hope you liked it.
01:31:52 <oklopol> btw, even more random idea: ZNYOGFYU is a mnemonic for doing exactly that.
01:34:34 <oklopol> move enemy away from player
01:37:22 <tusho> oklopol: how is it a mnemonic
01:41:36 <Slereah_> I wonder, is the variable bounding necessary in pi calculus?
01:43:10 <oklopol> Slereah_: ask again when i feel like thinking :P
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01:44:47 <Slereah_> So far it looks like local variable naming
01:45:37 <Slereah_> I hope there's an example where it can't just be replaced by renaming variables
01:47:04 <ihope> We're not talking about a calculus programming language, are we?
01:49:56 <oklopol> Slereah_: yeah, that would be a bit stupid
01:50:03 <oklopol> but, i know at least that the scope can change
01:50:20 <oklopol> it can extend if you send its value out of the inner scope
01:50:34 <oklopol> or something like that, i don't really remember that well
02:47:39 <augur> i see oklopol didnt explain function application
02:47:56 <augur> also, oklopol, your notation sucks. its too limited. :P
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02:58:54 <augur> oklopol, i like the idea of # as a way of pushing values to time-of-definition or some such
02:59:43 <augur> #(y+2)*#(y+2) + 3*z -> w
03:00:20 <augur> tho im providing let sugar in my implementation so.. :P
03:00:36 <augur> let x = y+2 in x(x + 3*z -> w
03:00:58 <augur> or x*x + 3*z where x = y+2
03:04:38 <Slereah_> Apparently, every process has a standard form like n (a,b,c,...) (P|Q|R|S|T|...)
03:04:49 <Slereah_> What is your use, variable bounding!
03:06:54 <augur> maybe we DO need to meet up, so i can teach you proper english :P
03:06:59 <Slereah_> As said, so far it looks like local variable declaration.
03:07:30 <Slereah_> I'll sit in your lap and you can teach me how to use my tongue.
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03:46:20 <augur> bondage is either slavery or sex.
03:47:47 <Slereah_> So little man, do you have any idea if variable binding is actually indispensible in pi?
03:49:58 <augur> i have no understanding of pi calc
03:50:25 <Slereah_> Well, imagine a bunch of dudes if you will.
03:50:42 <Slereah_> One of this man is named Alice (it's better not to think why)
03:51:16 <Slereah_> Now, imagine that they have some sort of communication channel.
03:51:46 <Slereah_> This is the essence of pi calculus.
03:52:07 <Slereah_> The calculus is a bunch of messages exchanged between the dudes.
03:52:37 <Slereah_> It has the following thingies :
03:52:53 <Slereah_> If you have two processes, P and Q.
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04:23:04 <Slereah_> A pi calculus example in the book is a mobile phone system
04:23:14 <Slereah_> For some reason, there's a biscuit truck in the schematics
04:26:47 <augur> dude, biscuit truck
04:26:51 <augur> ofcourse, it all makes sense
04:27:28 <Slereah_> Apparently, each vehicle has a mobile phone in it
04:27:37 <Slereah_> and I suppose that biscuit trucks need mobile phones
04:27:45 <augur> atleast one mobile phone
04:28:06 <lament> there's a natural isomorphism between mobile phones and bisquit trucks
04:29:32 <Slereah_> It's sort of a recurring theme, somehow
04:29:50 <Slereah_> One of the first example of communicating system was a vending machine, with tea and coffee.
04:30:09 <lament> coffee is all about communication
04:30:29 <Slereah_> For you see, if you input two pence in the machine
04:31:02 <Slereah_> It was used for an important point about determinism in communicating systems.
04:32:41 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/biskit.jpg
04:42:27 <Slereah_> Maybe I should fit the biscuit truck somewhere in Limp
05:30:50 <Slereah_> "We begin with the monadic version of the calculus"
05:30:55 <Slereah_> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:31:11 <Slereah_> I hope that's not what I think.
05:31:29 <Slereah_> It's apparently monadic in the old sense of the word though.
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12:13:50 <oklopol> augur: also, oklopol, your notation sucks. its too limited. :P <<< how so?
12:30:01 <oklopol> Slereah_: that normal form does suggest variable bondage is futile
12:31:35 <oklopol> Slereah_: is the pi just for fun or do you have like a course or smth?
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14:52:18 <tusho> ais523: well, I didn't have my irc client focused
14:52:29 <ais523> so it was a case of who happened to focus first
14:52:30 <tusho> ais523: does it notice you whenever I join?
14:52:42 <tusho> i should set that up
14:52:49 <ais523> it notices me whenever ehird joins
14:53:40 <tusho> ais523: I wonder if I tell it to highlight ais523, it'll highlight your joins too
14:53:50 <tusho> really, though, I need it to auto-focus whenever I log on and you're there
14:53:56 <ais523> heh, mine highlights server joins
14:54:00 <ais523> not just channel joins
14:54:11 -!- oklopol has changed nick to hiall.
14:54:20 <ais523> so I can get ready while waiting for you to connect
14:54:28 <tusho> ais523: hiall is oklopol
14:54:29 <hiall> i'm so gonna own you at greeting now.
14:54:36 <ais523> tusho: I know, I just saw the nick change
14:54:41 -!- hiall has changed nick to oklopol.
14:54:44 <tusho> ah, i thought you saw it as a join
14:54:50 <tusho> i.e. it looked like a join thing but you didn't actually read it
14:54:53 <ais523> nah, they look different to me
14:55:02 <ais523> *** oklopol is now known as hiall
14:55:09 <ais523> --> tusho has joined this channel
14:55:25 <tusho> colloquy's default style is pretty retarded
14:55:29 <tusho> it makes all stuff like that gray and in the middle
14:55:32 <ais523> anyway, I have to reboot, I'll bbiab
14:55:33 <tusho> also, it calls things 'chat rooms'
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14:55:58 <tusho> 18:57:01 <augur> tushotushotusho
14:56:02 <tusho> did you not notice i was not in the room
14:57:01 <tusho> 20:19:46 --- mode: ChanServ set -o oppiebot
14:57:04 <tusho> very disappointed.
14:57:28 <oklopol> everyone knows you're a logmongler
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15:00:26 <tusho> haha, this opera fanboy idiot is sending me private messages on reddit
15:00:37 <tusho> first he replied to someone complaining opera was not free software, with
15:00:40 <tusho> 'Of course the world's best browser is free!! Has been for years :)'
15:00:45 <ais523> tusho: anyway, the private back was to say back before you could wb me
15:00:50 <tusho> i pointed out that he should look up 'free software'
15:00:56 <tusho> then he private messaged me
15:01:00 <tusho> 'What did you mean by opera not being free? Link?'
15:01:07 <ais523> I did it in the region of time between me joining the server and me autojoining the channels
15:01:08 <tusho> I replied again telling him to look up free software
15:01:15 <tusho> and he's replied with this lovely ditty:
15:01:16 <ais523> tusho: maybe you should say FLOSS, it's less ambiguous
15:01:18 <tusho> [[Opera was initially paid software, but then became free a few years ago.
15:01:18 <tusho> http://www.download.com/Opera/3000-2356_4-10005498.html http://www.opera.com/free/
15:01:18 <tusho> note the word FREE.
15:01:18 <tusho> Shame there are ignorants like you around, especially on reddit, who blindly blurt out the stupidest thing on their minds that they can't be bothered to substantiate.
15:01:19 <tusho> So, you're either deluded or a retard. Now, YOU FAIL.
15:01:20 <tusho> Don't bother answering.]]
15:01:30 <tusho> So I'm either 12, mentally retarded ... or deluded. :-P
15:02:54 <tusho> I specifically replied
15:02:58 <tusho> 'go look up free software'
15:03:02 <tusho> if you google free software, you get relevant results
15:03:06 <tusho> he obviously didn't and replied blindly
15:03:08 <tusho> thus, I have no sympathy
15:03:10 <ais523> you probably get irrelevant results too
15:03:24 <tusho> ais523: first result - FSF
15:03:32 <tusho> then a few results on, the wikipedia definition and FSF's definition
15:03:54 <tusho> perhaps i should have tried 'open source'
15:04:06 <tusho> but then he'd yell at me for being a FANATICAL DELUDED RETARD WHO CAN'T APRPECIATE THE MOST AWESOME POWER OF OPERA
15:04:33 <ais523> Opera does have some good features, but they tend to be copied by Firefox extensions
15:04:50 <tusho> opera's rendering engine used to be far superior, though
15:05:09 <ais523> well, Firefox's is excellent, but Opera's being even better makes sense
15:05:26 <tusho> ais523: _used_ to be better
15:05:41 <tusho> a lot of Opera's marketshare comes from their mobile browsers, anyway
15:05:44 <tusho> they're the de-facto standard
15:05:55 <ais523> yes, FF would have trouble running on a mobile phone
15:07:57 <tusho> Lawl, that email-spamming social network site that was on reddit a while ago just emailed me.
15:08:02 <tusho> 'Please respond or your friend will think you said no :('
15:08:11 <tusho> HOW SAD :((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9999999999
15:08:23 <ais523> an interesting chain message variant
15:08:40 <tusho> ais523: it asks for your email password
15:08:43 <tusho> and invites everyone on your list
15:08:52 <tusho> by 'respond' they mean 'click the register button'
15:08:58 <tusho> and 'add this person as your friend'
15:09:00 <ais523> especially for non-webmail clients
15:09:08 <ais523> and I don't have an address list
15:09:10 <tusho> ais523: it only supports a few, iirc
15:09:20 <tusho> and i think it just does it to anyone you have ever emailed
15:09:22 <tusho> or recieved email from
15:09:24 <ais523> I just use reply, or remember addresses, or look in my sent items
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15:09:39 <tusho> gmail automatically maintains my address book
15:09:43 <tusho> if i email people a lot they go higher up in it
15:09:47 <tusho> rarely emailed people drop off it
15:11:04 <oklopol> i only answer, i never send emails otherwise.
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16:00:20 <tusho> Woohoo! It's quite likely that sweden will get its own firewall of china.
16:01:33 <tusho> ais523: http://swartz.typepad.com/texplorer/2008/06/mayday-mayday-internet-wall-of-china---around-sweden.html
16:02:31 <tusho> Not 'quite likely'
16:02:34 <tusho> [[Good thing that this is on reddit, but the law was passed yesterday... :(]]
16:04:02 <oklopol> 100% of finnish traffic goes through 'em
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16:04:30 <ais523> looks like Tor may end up getting a lot more use over in Sweden, then
16:09:01 <ais523> http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-business/spoon-business-200806/msg00123.html
16:09:01 <ais523> that retroactivity's so confused that it doesn't even make sense in Feather
16:09:01 <ais523> normally I'd post that to #ircnomic, but really, some things deserve to be in #esoteric
16:13:28 <tusho> ais523: could you express it in feather, though?
16:13:48 <ais523> tusho: a retroactive Feather change has to be legal in the situation that was retroactively changed from
16:13:57 <tusho> ais523: what would happen if you wrote that, then?
16:13:58 <ais523> so a change can change the situation to make it have been illegal
16:14:23 <ais523> tusho: nothing, it would be inexpressible, assuming that CANNOT in B Nomic == inexpressible in Feather
16:15:18 <tusho> ais523: so it would be a syntax error?
16:15:27 <tusho> what if you made it not one
16:15:39 <tusho> oh, and is a feather compiler possible? :P
16:15:46 <ais523> tusho: the change has to be legal in the version of the program's occurence that happened
16:16:07 <ais523> so you can retroactively make what you just did illegal, but not do something illegal that retroactively makes itself legal
16:16:17 <ais523> the other way leads to paradoxes very quickly
16:16:32 <ais523> oh, and a Feather compiler would have to bundle an interp
16:16:41 <ais523> because the interp is retroactively modifiable
16:16:45 <ais523> and therefore has to exist
16:17:11 <ais523> e.g. you can get the source code for a Feather interp by first retroactively modifying the language to expose the source code of all functions, and then looking at it
16:18:16 <tusho> opTypeNames is not defined wtf.
16:20:09 <tusho> GMAIL NOTIFIER STOP WELCOMING ME TO AGORA-BUSINESS
16:20:13 <tusho> THAT WAS SENT LIKE YEARS AGO
16:20:19 * tusho marks everything read
16:20:36 <tusho> 'All 3352 conversations in All Mail are selected. Clear selection'
16:20:45 <tusho> I only got this email in 2007
16:20:50 <AnMaster> tusho, haven't checked email a lot?
16:21:16 <tusho> AnMaster: No, I just ignore a lot of stuff
16:27:19 <tusho> ais523: eval() doesn't inject into global scope. bah.
16:27:22 <tusho> I guess I need window.eval
16:31:12 <tusho> ais523: I think we need #feather, because js2cps is a pretty big thingy
16:31:15 <tusho> and I find myself flooding about it a lot
16:31:28 <ais523> tusho: #feather already exists
16:31:33 <ais523> about some other project with the same name
16:32:07 <tusho> ais523: you could retroactively create it
16:32:20 <ais523> tusho: not valid under Freenode's current rules, sorry
16:32:51 <tusho> ais523: write an ircd in feather
16:33:02 <tusho> alternatively, #rehtaef because it reverses time
16:33:09 <ais523> tusho: ugh, Feather hates IO
16:33:13 <ais523> and it doesn't reverse time
16:33:21 <ais523> it just jumps back to a point in the past and does things differently
16:33:28 <ais523> which effects the future evolution of the program
16:33:30 <tusho> ais523: it occurs to me that Feathejs is like the ideal implementation of feather
16:33:36 <tusho> JS in a browser can do even less than squeak
16:33:42 <tusho> it's the most closed world of them all
16:33:56 <ais523> incidentally, Ubuntu sorts Squeak under "Education"
16:34:05 <ais523> rather than "Development" like other programming languages
16:34:22 <tusho> ais523: squeak is commonly used as an educational tool
16:34:29 <tusho> it should be under both, really
16:34:36 <ais523> well, it can't really be used for development
16:34:41 <ais523> because it only develops itself
16:34:42 <tusho> ais523: yes it can
16:34:48 <tusho> people deploy squeak-based apps all the time
16:34:54 <tusho> especially seaside apps
16:34:59 <ais523> tusho: well, you'd have to distribute Squeak with the app, and it's massive
16:35:08 <tusho> you just distribute the image
16:35:16 <tusho> or if you're targetting people without squeak
16:35:24 <tusho> but you can minimize the actual executable
16:35:28 <tusho> and not include the standard image
16:35:44 * tusho tries to come up with a channel name that illustrates feather's retroactivity
16:36:03 <ais523> tusho: what about we talk about it on irc.eso-std.org?
16:36:18 <tusho> ais523: hm. it's an open programming language project though
16:36:30 <ais523> yes, but then we wouldn't need a channel name...
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16:36:48 <tusho> ais523: #feather-lang
16:36:53 <tusho> (to keep with #ruby-lang)
16:38:20 <tusho> ais523: irc.eso-std.org#canada?
16:38:36 <ais523> tusho: OK, let me join it
16:41:31 <jix> what's feather?
16:41:45 <ais523> jix: programming language
16:41:50 <ais523> originally loosely based on Smalltalk
16:41:55 <ais523> but ended up getting features of Haskell too
16:41:57 <tusho> jix: it lets you change time, retroactively
16:42:00 <ais523> its main feature is retroactive changes
16:42:01 <tusho> that's all you need to know
16:42:09 <ais523> where you can alter the value an object had at some point in the past
16:42:16 <ais523> that's the only way objects can be modified
16:42:45 <ais523> also, the language is completely reflective
16:42:58 <ais523> you can even modify the parser retroactively, and have your program parsed differently as a result
16:43:05 <ais523> initially, it's object-oriented, but you can change that
16:43:16 <ais523> I'm also making a functional version, protoFeather
16:43:25 <tusho> jix: 'uhm' is right
16:43:31 <ais523> which is designed be a lang that can retroactively change itself so it was object-oriented all along
16:43:32 <tusho> if you don't understand it, that's unsuprising )
16:43:40 <ais523> and thus become Feather
16:43:51 <tusho> ais523: feathejs should implement protoFeather
16:43:54 <tusho> but by default load a Feather image
16:43:56 <jix> but if you change the parser retroactively to not understand the program that changed it in the first place..
16:43:59 <jix> you get a paradoxon
16:44:05 <ais523> jix: then you get a syntax error
16:44:06 <tusho> jix: you'd get an error
16:44:18 <ais523> because the program no longer conforms to the syntax of the language
16:44:26 <tusho> ais523: does it handle the grandfather paradox?
16:44:30 <tusho> make the parent of an object never have existed
16:44:40 <ais523> then the object itself no longer exists either
16:44:50 <tusho> ais523: it's sci-fi time travel!
16:44:50 <ais523> the change made itself illegal
16:44:51 <jix> ok so make it change the syntax so that the program itself wouldn't have changed the syntax but still is valid syntax
16:44:53 <ais523> but that direction was fine
16:45:01 <ais523> jix: that's fine, then the program just does something else
16:45:14 <ais523> retroactive changes have to be consistent only in one direction
16:45:15 <jix> ais523: what would be the defined behaviour of such a case
16:45:25 <ais523> jix: the change is made as described by the old program
16:45:43 <ais523> the new program is incapable of making that change again, because it means something else
16:45:50 <ais523> in fact, you have to do that sort of thing to avoid timeloops
16:46:17 <ais523> where you make a retroactive change, and the resulting program tries to make the same change, and so on forever
16:46:23 <ais523> when that happens the interp goes into an infinite loop
16:46:26 <ais523> which is not particularly useful
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16:50:10 <jix> hmm what would be if the program is only run if the retroactivly change requested does change something acutally
16:50:38 <ais523> jix: finding ways to do that is one major part of my effort in Feather
16:50:51 <ais523> the issue is that functions can't be compared, at least not in general
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16:52:07 <ais523> anyway, adding a new method or property to an object seems to be a safe retroactive change to make
16:52:13 <ais523> because it's possible to tell if it was there
16:52:20 <ais523> changing an existing method is harder, though
16:58:40 <tusho> www.google.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again.
16:58:49 <jix> hmm nomic seems to be an interesting game...
16:59:06 <tusho> heh, how did jix find nomic?
16:59:14 <ais523> it manages to get itself into worse situations than esolangs, normally
16:59:15 <jix> tusho: uhm
16:59:20 <jix> someone posted a link
16:59:25 <ais523> tusho: probably he followed the link I posted
16:59:46 <tusho> though we still need comex to go there
17:00:00 <ais523> tusho: I can't find how to set a redirect at all
17:00:04 <ais523> it probably needs oper intervention
17:00:11 <tusho> ais523: No, I doubt it.
17:00:13 <tusho> I'll ask #freenode
17:00:55 <tusho> UdontKnow: set guard on, and set mlock +if #destination
17:01:00 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird.
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17:03:01 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird.
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17:03:44 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird.
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17:37:46 <tusho> GO AWAY. I WISH I HAD NEVER SAID HI
17:37:54 <tusho> YOU BROKE OUR ... SACRED BOND
17:38:00 <ais523> tusho: why can't Slereah_say RABBIT?
17:38:06 <Slereah_> tusho does not appreciate fine music.
17:38:10 <tusho> ais523: WE WERE SAYING HI TO HIM IN THE EXACTLY SAME WAY
17:38:13 <tusho> HE BROKE THAT SPECIAL BOND
17:38:26 <ais523> tusho: well, saying hi to yourself's a little stupid
17:38:34 <Slereah_> http://www.4chan.org/flash/?file=megaloop/megaloop3.swf&title=Megaloop+v3.0
17:38:36 <tusho> ais523: HE SHOULD HAVE KEPT IS DAMN MOUTH SHUT
17:39:10 <Slereah_> 18th button, then click on the big flashing button :o
17:39:54 <ais523> Slereah_: description? I choose not to look at things made in Flash
17:39:59 <ais523> and in fact don't have Flash installed
17:40:12 <Slereah_> It's said song, that contains the rabbit thing
17:40:24 <Slereah_> Actually "rub it", but in the context, it is moar rabbit.
17:41:29 <Slereah_> Context : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers4/Rub%20it.jpg
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17:51:36 <ais523> sorry, dodgy connection...
17:52:48 <Slereah_> It seems pi calculus is full of non-determinism :o
17:59:08 <oklopol> how far along the book did that occur to you? :P
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18:00:02 <Slereah_> Well, in the chapter that's actually about pi calculus
18:00:27 <Slereah_> I thought they would drop the + operator, since it's not in most pi calculus conventions
18:04:13 <Slereah_> Apparently, with the replication operator, you can't have a standard form
18:05:12 <Slereah_> n(a,b,c,d,...) (M1|M2|M3|...|Q1!|Q2!|Q3!|...)
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18:27:35 <Slereah_> I think I found an occurence where n can't be replaced :o
18:29:29 <Slereah_> It needs a fresh supply of local variables to not get confused with any of the ones it already sent.
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19:04:12 <tusho> Cool. Thunks were invented in 1961 for ALGOL 60.
19:12:47 <Slereah_> "The word thunk has at least three related meanings in computer science."
19:13:07 <Slereah_> Oh, delayed computation apparently
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19:25:47 <augur> a procedure of no arguments
19:27:23 <augur> wanna learn about how reactance handles function calls?
19:27:34 <ais523> augur: yes please, it could be useful for my degree
19:28:02 <Slereah_> ais523 is going for a degree in reactionism
19:28:37 <ais523> but VHDL is quite promininent in it
19:28:55 <augur> well i dont know if this is how VHDL does things, so dont rely on this :p
19:29:11 <ais523> I may end up having to reimplement it or something silly like that, that's how projects often go
19:29:48 <augur> so this is how functions work
19:29:56 <augur> suppose you have a simple function
19:30:32 <augur> when you apply it like x = :foo 1 2
19:30:58 <augur> those () should be {} sorry :p
19:31:06 <ais523> @ is function inputs/outputs, right?
19:31:14 <augur> sort of. youll see.
19:31:19 <tusho> ais523: @ is perl's @_, except if you write to it you return it.
19:31:31 <augur> the evaluator looks up foo, and finds that it's a 'lambda'
19:31:32 <ais523> I've been listening in #reactivity a while ago
19:31:46 <tusho> that channel doesn't exist
19:31:49 <augur> really, it finds that it's a sequence of sets and reactions
19:32:17 <augur> it then executes the sequence of sets and reactions in order
19:32:23 <augur> when it comes across something like @ -> ...
19:32:31 <ais523> maybe it was #reactance
19:32:34 <ais523> but it was a temp channel anyway
19:32:38 <ais523> so probably no longer exists
19:32:42 <augur> it says, ok, let me look at the arguments that were passed in
19:32:45 <augur> what are those arguments?
19:32:46 <tusho> ais523: wasn't temp
19:32:51 <tusho> augur has tried to stuff me in there twice
19:33:04 <ais523> augur: still listening
19:33:07 <augur> so it says, sure, @ == 1,2
19:33:08 -!- Corun has joined.
19:33:18 <augur> well if @ == 1,2, and @ -> a,b
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19:33:30 <augur> which is just a normal parallel reaction
19:34:02 <augur> so the evaluator creates these two reactions, 1 -> a, 2 -> b
19:34:31 <augur> and then it turns to a+b -> @
19:34:52 <augur> and it says, ok i need to now establish a reaction between a+b and whatever variable is on the output
19:34:59 <augur> but, uh oh, theres no variable on the output
19:35:05 <augur> i said x = :foo 1 2
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19:35:38 <ais523> what does that = mean?
19:35:40 <augur> even if i had said :foo 1 2 -> x there wouldnt be a variable that the APPLICATION is outputing to
19:35:53 <ais523> I mean, in the context of your lang
19:36:15 <augur> what the evaluator does, then, is when it evaluates something like x = :foo 1 2
19:36:22 <augur> it replaces :foo 1 2 with a dummy variable
19:36:39 <augur> and when it builds/executes the body of the function
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19:36:48 <augur> it replaces -> @ with -> that_dummy_variable
19:37:26 <ais523> ah, so it's pass-by-name
19:37:30 <ais523> but for results as well as arguments
19:37:39 <augur> if we were doing something like 1,2,3 -> @, it would replace :foo 1 2 with three dummy variables
19:38:03 <augur> so its sort of like a return value
19:38:09 <augur> so what function calls REALLY do
19:38:13 <augur> is they build new reactions
19:38:19 <augur> using dummy variables and so on
19:38:53 <augur> if you want, you can imagine this like this:
19:39:06 <augur> step 1: evaluate ":foo x y -> z"
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19:39:45 <augur> step 2: instantiate the body of foo somewhere, create @ -> a,b and a+b -> @
19:39:51 <augur> replace @ with x,y
19:40:13 <augur> step 4: replace @ with dummy
19:40:33 <augur> and repace :foo x y with dummy in :foo x y -> z
19:40:41 <augur> so now all we have is
19:40:55 <ais523> that's pass-by-name, basically
19:41:11 <augur> which is a trivial reaction set
19:41:28 <ais523> I think that's what VHDL does
19:41:36 <ais523> except it needs all input and output ports to be named explicitly
19:41:41 <ais523> so the syntax is a lot more unwieldy
19:42:12 <augur> well, we're considering having some requirement on formals to the lambda
19:42:24 <augur> my preference is { @: a b c ... }
19:42:32 <augur> instead of { @ -> a, b, c ... }
19:43:25 <ais523> well, as long as you don't have to define a separate prototype first
19:43:31 <ais523> using keywords like BEGIN ENTITY
19:43:38 <augur> a separate prototype?
19:43:49 <ais523> augur: you define prototypes for functions first
19:43:53 <ais523> then one or more implementations for them
19:44:24 <ais523> well, to define a 'function'
19:44:41 <ais523> you first put a block of code that states all the arguments it takes, and all the return values, and their types
19:44:46 <ais523> then, separately, you put the code for the function
19:44:55 <ais523> I'm talking about VHDL
19:45:05 <augur> yeah, i know. no we have nothing like that
19:45:12 <augur> in this, you just define what the reactions look like
19:45:18 <ais523> yes, that's a lot simpler
19:45:25 <ais523> I was talking about how VHDL is ridiculously verbose
19:45:36 <augur> functions are literally nothing more than shorthands for big reaction-creation sequences
19:46:06 <augur> all the dummy variables are unnamed, btw. they exist only in the mind of the evaluator or something like that, so theres no naming conflict
19:46:10 <tusho> by the way, I had a great esolang idea a while ago
19:46:16 <tusho> an esoteric language geared to creating electronic music
19:46:30 <augur> we do have lexical scoping
19:46:43 <augur> so these variables used in reactions exist in frames of environments
19:46:59 <augur> so this is where we get to your question about what = does
19:47:08 <augur> when the evaluator comes to a =
19:47:28 <augur> it looks at the value of the right hand side _at the time of evaluation_
19:47:35 <augur> and puts that value into the variable on the left
19:47:43 <augur> its not a reaction
19:47:57 <augur> x = y*y sets x to 47
19:48:13 <augur> <- and -> on the other hand establish a reaction
19:48:28 <augur> x <- y*y makes x 49
19:48:33 <augur> but if y changes, so does x
19:48:55 <augur> because theres lexical scope, if x doesnt exist in the environment, it creates x
19:49:25 <augur> in the evaluation frame
19:49:38 <augur> which is the global frame if you're in the main body of a reactance program
19:49:49 <augur> on the other hand, if you use := you say by default "create x in the current eval frame"
19:50:02 <augur> if you're in the global frame, no difference from =
19:50:09 <augur> if you're in a sequence
19:50:13 <augur> e.g. anything like { ... }
19:50:33 <augur> well, when you apply a function, you set up a new frame and extent the definition environment with that frame
19:51:06 <augur> so if := is in that sequence, it sets up a new variable in the frame created when applying the function
19:51:12 <augur> just like (define ... ) in lisp
19:51:23 <augur> :-> and <-: do the same for reactions
19:51:45 <augur> if the variable already exists in the frame, then thats an error.
19:52:37 <augur> does that make sense?
19:53:56 <ais523> augur: let me read it first
19:54:56 <ais523> what determines when = is evaluated?
19:55:09 <ais523> oh, you can do things like x -> y = 5
19:55:18 <ais523> so that y changes to 5 whenever x changes?
19:55:22 <ais523> that should be x -> (y = 5)
20:10:34 <augur> you cant do x -> (y = 5)
20:10:47 <ais523> in that case I don't think I understand
20:10:51 <ais523> when evaluation happens
20:10:51 <augur> you can do x -> {y = 5} tho
20:11:00 <ais523> oh, a simple syntax difference?
20:11:06 <augur> big semantic difference
20:11:10 <augur> y = 5 is just an assignment
20:11:16 <augur> _just_ an assigmnet
20:11:40 <augur> you can do it whenever you want in a series of = or -> statements
20:11:50 <augur> just like you can in, say, c
20:11:58 <augur> think of it basically like that
20:12:24 <ais523> so the program runs in sequence?
20:12:26 <augur> .. has to be a variable, or a bunch of variables
20:12:32 <ais523> in reactive langs, it's normally hard to tell when things happen
20:12:36 <augur> it establishes reactions in sequence
20:13:32 <augur> if we eliminated =, then you'd never see the sequentiality
20:13:47 <augur> and it could be eliminated entirely
20:14:00 <ais523> so x <- y actually assigns a reaction to x
20:14:05 <ais523> which makes it change value whenever y changes?
20:14:08 <augur> x <- y is identical to y -> x
20:14:19 <ais523> but before that command was called, x had no value
20:14:19 <ais523> but you never notice that
20:14:19 <augur> yeah, whenever y changes, x is updated as well
20:14:30 <augur> unless you had x -> @
20:14:32 <ais523> so if I write x <- y; z = x
20:14:36 <ais523> does that make z react to x
20:14:40 <ais523> or does = just copy x's value
20:14:49 <augur> no, = are not reactions
20:14:58 <augur> = is just a one time "whats the value _at this moment_" sort of thing
20:14:59 <ais523> but x has a reaction there
20:15:08 <ais523> so = looks at x's value, but not any reactions it has
20:15:14 <augur> right, and since y has no value, neither does x, and neither does z
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20:15:59 <ais523> tusho: where did you go?
20:16:31 <augur> ais does that make sense?
20:16:57 <ais523> and when y's assigned a value, x will change but z won't
20:17:04 <ais523> because it got a copy of x's value, but not its reactions
20:17:11 <ais523> what if I write x <- y; x <- z
20:17:13 <augur> doing z = x is sort of like
20:17:15 <ais523> does x get both reactions?
20:17:21 <augur> the evaluator gets to z = x
20:17:29 <augur> and then instead says
20:17:38 <augur> z <- that_constant_that_x_was_equal_to
20:17:50 <ais523> and { } can be used to get the evaluator to run after initial program load
20:17:58 <ais523> by making a block that's evaluated in reaction to something
20:18:06 <augur> x only has one reaction
20:18:13 <augur> the first one is destroyed.
20:18:37 <ais523> that's very different from VHDL
20:18:44 <ais523> in fact it's the first major difference I've seen
20:18:48 <augur> tho that might be interesting to look into
20:18:59 <augur> ill note it, thank you.
20:19:05 <oklofok> it seems reactance has changed a lot since my days
20:19:13 <augur> no it hasnt oklofok :P
20:19:22 <augur> you just never paid attention in the first place
20:19:24 <oklofok> y->x;z->x didn't use to eliminate y->x
20:19:29 <augur> {} just enclose sequences
20:19:35 <augur> yes it did, oklofok
20:19:38 <ais523> sequences being the operative word here
20:19:42 <ais523> so that they can be evaluated, in sequence
20:19:50 <augur> well yes, oklofok :P
20:20:01 <ais523> including specifying what reaction causes them to happen
20:20:11 <augur> sequences are just a bunch of reactions
20:20:17 <ais523> augur: oklofok: you two remind me of me and ehird
20:20:24 <ais523> bickering about this sort of language detail
20:20:26 <oklofok> ais523: also me and ehird.
20:20:38 <augur> so when you do something like
20:20:47 <augur> what you do is store the sequence in the variable foo
20:20:50 <oklofok> also ehird and X for any value of X
20:20:52 <tusho> GregorR: Rule 1 of #esoteric: Your language does not need a channel, unless it's Feather.
20:20:59 <augur> sequences have inputs and outputs, as you saw: @ -> ... and ... -> @
20:21:05 <augur> so functions are really just sequences
20:21:10 <GregorR> tusho: It's not a language, nor is it that esoteric.
20:21:14 <oklofok> my languages are so awesome i could have seven channels for each
20:21:18 <tusho> JSMIPS is totally esoteric, GregorR.
20:21:22 <augur> the whole program could infact be considered one giant {}
20:21:25 <tusho> oklofok: You CAN! :D
20:21:36 <augur> MIPS by itself is esoteric.
20:21:40 * ais523 is laughing continuously
20:21:50 <augur> does that make sense, ais?
20:21:55 <oklofok> ais523: who made you laugh?
20:21:59 <augur> {} is just sequence syntax
20:22:03 <ais523> oklofok: the whole discussion
20:22:13 <oklofok> okay, aws just wondering if it was my second point.
20:22:16 <tusho> let's argue about whom argues with whom
20:22:17 <ais523> but starting when two people joined #jsmips when GregorR asked someone else to
20:22:28 <augur> so when you do x -> { y = 5 } what you're doing is saying the value of x is the input to the sequence { y = 5 }
20:22:36 <augur> which is just the same as applying that sequence to x
20:22:48 <augur> or if it was a named sequence
20:23:19 <augur> tusho: about _who_ argues with whom
20:23:31 <tusho> shut up augur, you know i'm mentally retarded ;)
20:23:47 <ais523> tusho: you started it this time
20:23:50 <augur> i can tell you precisely why it's _who_ anyway
20:23:53 <tusho> ais523: actually, I was joking
20:23:57 <augur> ais: does all that make sense?
20:24:02 <ais523> tusho: yes, but it may not come across that way
20:24:09 <tusho> ais523: did last time I joked about it
20:24:29 <augur> if you have any questions, dont ask oklopol. he's confused.
20:24:50 <oklofok> i'm not confused, i'm just bicurious!
20:25:50 <augur> no, you're a faggot is what you are
20:26:27 <augur> ok im off to pick up my glasses and go install Leopard on my aunts computer
20:51:59 <ais523> wow, they just released a new version of Subversion, with some actual new features
20:52:05 <ais523> that doesn't happen very often
20:52:17 <tusho> ais523: and shouldn't, they still think it has a market segment...
20:52:30 <tusho> ais523: it shouldn't
20:52:41 <ais523> tusho: think small projects with a few people, and a centralised server
20:52:52 <tusho> DVCS' still have major advantages in that case
20:53:06 <ais523> tusho: well, in this case, we didn't want branching at all anywhere
20:53:09 <tusho> ais523: also, a subversion dev has stated that the market for svn is now 'medium-sized projects'
20:53:16 <tusho> which is crap as DVCS' work well on them
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21:06:39 <ais523> (sorry, tried to say that earlier but my Internet connection malfunctioned)
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21:09:19 <ais523> heh, oerjan comes out in cyan
21:09:27 <ais523> my client invents colours for everyone's nicks
21:09:34 <ais523> presumably based on some username-based algorithm
21:09:48 <ais523> Slereah_ is a sort of slightly bluish green
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21:14:32 <ais523> I have a dodgy Internet connection
21:14:44 <oklofok> ais523: who clever is the nick invention?
21:14:58 <ais523> well, your nick is a rather nice shade of purple
21:15:06 <ais523> and I didn't invent the nick thing
21:15:10 <oklofok> always manages to choose the same color for almost same nicks?
21:15:12 <ais523> probably many clients have it
21:15:18 <ais523> oklofok: no, very different for almost same nicks
21:15:26 <ais523> presumably so you can tell them apart
21:21:59 <ais523> hm... tusho's almost the same colour as Slereah_
21:22:34 <ais523> in terms of nick colour
21:23:23 <tusho> ais523: probably because Slereah_ and tusho are far apart nickwise
21:24:08 <Slereah_> He's right under me alphabetically
21:24:28 <ais523> well, most of the letters are different
21:24:41 <ais523> wow, I'm not sure if I can tell the colours for you two apart
21:26:09 <tusho> ais523: http://live.gnome.org/Vala this is crazy
21:26:15 <tusho> it's a compiler that compiles to C-GObject
21:26:21 <tusho> and has things like lambdas
21:26:26 <tusho> and non-null types
21:26:29 <tusho> and generics, and type inferrence
21:27:22 <ais523> so it's designed to be a sane interface to what they have already?
21:31:06 <tusho> ais523: pretty much
21:31:16 <tusho> it's like all of C#'s functional&weird features plus the gobject type system
21:31:22 <tusho> but still ... gobject is grossly horrible
21:31:25 <tusho> so why build something so nice on top of it
21:31:36 <ais523> tusho: well, it's TC, right?
21:31:48 <ais523> besides, why did you ask that question in #esoteric?
21:31:55 <tusho> because GObject is esoteric
21:31:58 <tusho> and there's nowhere else to ask it
21:32:02 <ais523> "X is grossly horrible, so why build something so nice on top of it"
21:32:10 <ais523> that question's rhetorical in #esoteric
21:32:15 <tusho> for something serious
21:32:43 <tusho> ais523: how do I find out which channels I own?
21:33:27 <ais523> I'm not sure if you can
21:33:37 <ais523> try asking in #freenode
21:33:53 * ais523 is confused that tusho seems to think that ais523 is a ChanServ expert
21:34:21 <Slereah_> If you are not, you have OUTLIVED YOUR USEFULNESS!
21:34:39 * ais523 ducks behind a filing cabinet
21:34:53 <Slereah_> I find your lack of chanserv expertise disturbing.
21:35:01 * ais523 quickly leafs through their #esoteric handbook for the bit on protecting oneself from an angry Slereah_
21:35:16 * ais523 gets out some delicious cake to use as a distraction
21:36:32 <ais523> oerjan: ssh, don't tell Slereah_ that!
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21:49:17 <tusho> ais523: well I just had to do it .. I'm making a language that is a thin, slightly eso layer over c
21:51:08 <tusho> ais523: you'll be interested because it'll probably be prototype based
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21:59:01 <oklofok> i'm going to make a language based on your mother
22:00:49 <tusho> ais523: behold. http://pastebin.ca/1051458
22:03:38 <tusho> ais523: most awful thing ever or what
22:04:14 <ais523> Java looks worse, for instance
22:05:59 <tusho> ais523: but awful in how it'll translate to c
22:15:27 <ais523> here, let me take an argument I had with tusho over to #esoteric
22:15:38 <ais523> is it a good idea to provide version control information in multiple formats?
22:15:43 <ais523> say, in both git and darcs foramt
22:15:51 <tusho> ais523: that is so not what yousaid
22:15:52 <ais523> I think it is, tusho thinks it isn't
22:15:57 <tusho> and let's not inflame #esoteric
22:16:06 <ais523> tusho: no, I didn't say it like taht
22:16:15 <ais523> but that's what I think it's most important to resolve
22:16:25 <ais523> lets see what the others have to say
22:16:38 <ais523> come on, denizens of #esoteric!
22:16:46 <tusho> ais523: like 3 people here use version control.
22:17:00 <tusho> GregorR, probably lament
22:17:04 <ais523> this channel is full of programmers
22:17:09 <tusho> ais523: unconventional ones
22:17:11 <ais523> most of whom will have used version control at some time
22:17:13 <tusho> oklopol doesn't use any
22:17:27 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat has an irrational hatred and prefers his 'vcs' which consists of a php script that lists zip files and lets you upload them
22:17:35 <ais523> tusho: well, if e did, e'd appreciate having version control info in multiple format
22:17:36 <tusho> dunno about oerjan, SimonRC
22:17:41 <jix> i wouldn't want to maintain a multiple vcs setup
22:17:53 <ais523> jix: but it makes more sense as a user from a website
22:17:55 <tusho> jix: especially since the differences in how they treat things, right?
22:17:59 <ais523> I'm offering to maintain it myself
22:17:59 <tusho> it wouldn't convert well
22:18:07 <ais523> tusho: it does convert well, I tested
22:18:16 <jix> well if some are read only it would work i guess
22:18:20 <tusho> oh dear, we pinged RodgerTheGreat
22:18:26 <ais523> jix: that's it, all but one are read only
22:18:35 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: well you DID say that you hate them all except your zip uploader.
22:18:44 <tusho> i can get the logs if you want...
22:18:50 <ais523> well, provide RodgerTheGreatZipUploader as a format too
22:18:54 <ais523> for people who like doing it like that
22:18:57 <jix> but then i don't really see the use... you could use some webinterface that enables downloads of revisions as tar.bz2 and everyone is happy
22:19:08 <jix> downloads of that and patches or something
22:19:21 <RodgerTheGreat> and the point I originally made was that I think they're usually overkill and poorly designed
22:19:22 <jix> i'd prefer that over loads of different vcs
22:19:22 <ais523> jix: yes, that's how VCS converters work
22:19:38 <jix> ais523: yeah but just offer the bz2s and patches and the vcs you use
22:19:43 <jix> that should be enough for everyone!
22:19:43 <GregorR> I used to think version control systems were overkill.
22:19:55 <tusho> jix: it's because ais523, although accepting that git would work totally fine and would be equal to darcs, wants to use darcs to develop even though ESO has some infrastructure [with more to come] built around git
22:19:57 <GregorR> Then I made a big change to a file that I couldn't easily revert.
22:19:58 <tusho> e.g. the online repo viewer
22:20:01 <ais523> jix: well, the issue here is that I'm using a different VCS for my projects than tusho is for eirs
22:20:07 <tusho> ais523: that's untrue
22:20:09 <tusho> s/tusho/the rest of ESO/
22:20:16 <tusho> and the point is that we have infrastructure, with more to come, utilizing it
22:20:19 <ais523> tusho: the rest of ESO is you
22:20:21 <tusho> also, you've even said that git would work fine
22:20:23 <tusho> ais523: yes, but not forever
22:20:32 <ais523> tusho: what if the rest of ESO wants to use darcs?
22:20:43 <tusho> ais523: that's not what I said
22:20:46 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: I am also somewhat curious as to why you've gone out of your way to criticize my opinions so many times recently for essentially no reason.
22:20:51 <jix> i don't like darcs
22:20:52 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: I haven't.
22:20:55 <tusho> It was relevant to the discussion.
22:20:58 <jix> and i don't like git either
22:21:02 <tusho> ais523: ESO has infrastructure, with more to come (important note) based on git.
22:21:12 <tusho> Therefore, ESO is likely to use git more and more and not other VCS'.
22:21:14 <ais523> tusho: there are two things based on git, because you chose to use it
22:21:20 <ais523> for two projects you started
22:21:32 <tusho> ais523: you misunderstand 'infrastructure'
22:21:34 <GregorR> jix: I'm not a big fan of decentralized revision control in general, but I still Mercurial because it's soooooooo easy to set up on a server X-D
22:21:37 <tusho> infrastructure = code browser, etc
22:21:45 <jix> GregorR: i use bazaar
22:21:48 <ais523> and I'm willing to convert my projects to git to work in your browser
22:22:00 <tusho> but that conversion does not work foolproof, ais523
22:22:03 <jix> GregorR: because switching from svn to it was the most easiest switch imho and it's soooo easy to setup
22:22:07 <tusho> and since you have acknowlegded that git would work fine
22:22:11 <tusho> you could just... you know. use it
22:22:14 <ais523> tusho: well, it only needs to work for the things that the browser shows
22:22:19 <tusho> or, you could just forfeit the code browser like earlier
22:22:27 <jix> but i have no problem of using different vcs for different projects
22:22:31 <ais523> which is revisions, commits and patches
22:22:36 <ais523> I don't see how they could fail to convert
22:22:37 <tusho> ais523: I am not happy with the duplication of the storage.
22:22:45 <tusho> When it gets more revisions that will be a problem.
22:22:50 <jix> so if i work on a project that uses GIT i'd use git too
22:22:59 <tusho> And I don't want C-INTERCAL taking up a lot of space just because you don't want to use git for no reason...
22:23:14 <ais523> tusho: it's hardly likely to take up a lot of space
22:23:34 <tusho> Darcs is not the most space-efficient VCS, ais523.
22:23:44 <jix> uh and darcs vs git i'd vote for git because darcs dependencies aren't nice
22:23:48 <ais523> so a git conversion won't take up much more
22:24:16 <jix> like compiling ghc isn't fun
22:24:25 <ais523> jix: well, I have ghc already
22:24:33 <tusho> jix: he has this brilliant idea of automatically converting darcs to git for the code browser & similar
22:24:36 <tusho> and doing this routinely to keep it up to date
22:24:42 <tusho> instead of using git (which he has acknowledged would be fine)
22:25:04 <jix> well if it makes no differences for anyone but him why shouldn't he do that
22:25:04 <ais523> tusho: but annoying for someone like me, who likes the darcs interface but not the git interface
22:25:20 <jix> ais523: you could write some small shellscript wrapper for that couldn't you?
22:25:24 <tusho> ais523: maybe you could spend some time with it?
22:25:27 <tusho> I bet you'd come out more efficient.
22:25:46 <ais523> jix: yes, I'm thinking about it
22:25:59 <jix> which imho would be a better solution that duplicating the repo
22:26:17 * jix is too tired to write...
22:26:24 <ais523> tusho: well, I'm reasonably efficient as is, and going much faster wouldn't give me time to review my changes
22:26:31 <ais523> as is, I've caught quite a few errors at commit-time
22:26:41 <tusho> ais523: Well, if you can get an equal speed with git and all these advantages...
22:26:52 <tusho> If you wish, though, write that shell wrapper.
22:26:56 <tusho> I'm sure lots of people would find it useful, actually.
22:29:15 <Slereah> What do you think of this so far : http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Limp
22:30:53 <tusho> Slereah: It rox my box.
22:31:11 <ais523> tusho: I can't figure out how to use git commit --interactive at all
22:31:16 <ais523> and that's the main reason I use darcs
22:31:21 <tusho> ais523: You could ask #git.
22:31:28 <tusho> Or the mailing list.
22:31:38 <Slereah> I think I'm going to have problems differenciating names from function values
22:31:38 <ais523> tusho: if I ask them how to make git work exactly like darcs, most likely they'll say "use darcs"
22:31:45 <ais523> whichis a sensible reply in the circumstances
22:31:50 <tusho> ais523: I doubt it.
22:31:50 <Slereah> I'll have to do something moar rigorous for it.
22:31:56 <tusho> Just ask them how to efficiently use git commit --interactive.
22:32:00 <tusho> That's your real question.
22:32:14 <tusho> It's just hidden in the layer of 'darcs thingy is efficient', 'I want git commit --interactive to be as efficient'
22:32:25 <tusho> Which does not equate to 'I want it to work exactly like darcs', which would be a bad phrasing of it.
22:33:25 <ais523> tusho: it's fundamentally different
22:33:31 <ais523> darcs separates patches for showing them
22:33:43 <tusho> ais523: Ask them how to do a similar workflow.
22:33:47 <ais523> so you can't commit a change to a file but not an unrelated change elsewhere in that file
22:33:57 <ais523> also you have to commit a diff before you can look at it
22:34:01 <tusho> *ahem* I don't know why ais523 thinks I'm a git-workflow expert.
22:34:02 <ais523> well, tentative-commit it
22:34:16 <ais523> I'm just explaining why using git would be against my interests
22:34:23 <ais523> can I not just use darcs as an interface to it?
22:34:56 <ais523> Slereah: I'm not sure I understand it
22:35:24 <tusho> ais523: It wouldn't be against your interests! Just ask #git, jeez.
22:35:37 <tusho> (And don't say "tusho told me to come in here and ask you how to make git exactly like darcs". Because that's silly.)
22:35:45 <ais523> what else should I say?
22:36:03 <Slereah> ais523 : What do you not understandy?
22:36:12 <tusho> ais523: I'm used to 'darcs record'. How can I use 'git commit --interactive' for a similar workflow?
22:36:30 <ais523> Slereah: the whole thing, my head isn't getting around it for some reason
22:36:58 <Slereah> Not even the recursive-lisp-lambda part? :o
22:37:13 <ais523> I think I'm having trouble parsing the syntax in my head
22:37:17 <ais523> possibly because I'm tired
22:38:07 <tusho> ais523: I just told you how to ask them. :P
22:38:11 <ais523> tusho: well, I've copy/pasted that question to #git
22:38:21 <ais523> and nobody's replied so far
22:38:31 <tusho> ais523: and if they suggest pointers to a different workflow, listen to them.. open mind and all that
22:38:41 <Slereah> Well, the syntax for processes is P ::= 0 | x<y>.P | x[y].P | (n x)P | (P|P) | !P
22:38:42 <ais523> yes, well actually they're just ignoring me
22:40:30 <tusho> ais523: no they're not
22:40:39 <tusho> guess what, irc channels are idle most of the time :|
22:40:49 <tusho> and people only answer questions they can
22:40:55 <ais523> #git asn't when I arrived
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22:52:51 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes "interfunge"?
22:52:56 <ais523> AnMaster: again not at all, so far
22:53:02 <ais523> I've been too busy arguing with tusho
22:53:06 <ais523> for the last month or so
22:53:24 <tusho> AnMaster: considering we're the two members of ESO
22:53:25 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I enjoy the arguments
22:53:26 <tusho> that might not be so productive
22:53:32 <tusho> (and the two main people on Canada)
22:53:37 <ais523> I admit that /ignore tusho would make me a lot more productive at many things, though
22:53:38 <AnMaster> ais523, tell him to shut up then?
22:53:45 <tusho> AnMaster: i could say the same!
22:54:00 <ais523> hey, I didn't say the arguments were tusho's fault!
22:54:12 <tusho> yes you did! fuck you ais523!
22:54:16 <tusho> i hope you die in a fire!
22:55:51 <ais523> AnMaster: that might work, but then how would I convince tusho of what I wanted to convince them of?
22:56:17 <ais523> AnMaster: no, just singular they
22:56:37 <ais523> AnMaster: use of the word they to refer to one object
22:56:41 <ais523> to avoid having to state a gender
22:56:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that isn't correct English afaik?
22:56:55 <ais523> AnMaster: even Shakespeare used the word themself
22:56:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: It _will_ be
22:57:02 <ais523> despite knowing the gender of the person in question
22:57:09 <tusho> let's all use spivak
22:57:12 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, but this isn't old English
22:57:15 <tusho> AnMaster, though, I don't think e might like that
22:57:27 <tusho> It might get em enflamed.
22:57:36 <ais523> AnMaster: use of the word e as the singular of they
22:57:42 <tusho> And e'll lose eir mind!
22:59:03 <ihope> "They" is correct English grammar. If anybody tells you otherwise, they're right.
22:59:15 <ais523> ihope: s/right/wrong/?
22:59:22 <ais523> you just contradicted yourself
23:00:14 <olsner> maybe you mean "they's right"?
23:00:37 <ais523> wow, double-single-quote, I don't use that often
23:00:52 -!- Ilari has joined.
23:01:33 <AnMaster> ais523, double single quote exist?
23:01:39 <ais523> some langs use it, I think
23:01:50 <ais523> e.g. TexInfo uses it for directed closing double-quotes
23:01:52 <AnMaster> hard to keep apart from double quote...
23:01:59 <ais523> you write `` for a directed opening double-quote
23:02:05 <AnMaster> I mean in hard written text '' == "
23:02:15 <ais523> Ilari: tusho tells me that you recognised my quit message as INTERCAL
23:02:32 <ais523> as a double-quoted ' == '
23:02:33 <AnMaster> ais523, they look different in my font
23:02:51 <ais523> Ilari: any idea what it does?
23:03:07 <tusho> anyway, ais523, get back into #git so they can hit you with the force of a thousand reasoned arguments :-P
23:03:15 <Ilari> ais523: Nope. I haven't studied Intercal very much.
23:03:21 <ais523> tusho: I got a very satisfactory answer from #git, thanks
23:03:39 <tusho> wait, didn't you say it supports your workflow anyway?
23:03:58 <tusho> does that mean you'll be using git?
23:04:18 <tusho> ignore AnMaster, as he is a complete liar.
23:04:18 <ais523> AnMaster: that seems to be the other main alternative, after reading up on this online
23:04:26 <ais523> apart from git and darcs
23:04:30 <tusho> besides, the only reason git is on the table is because ESO are utilizing it already
23:04:32 <AnMaster> ais523, well darcs is good too
23:04:39 <tusho> ais523: anyway, is it time to do my victory dance?
23:04:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm using darcs at the moment, tusho's trying to convince me to use git
23:04:55 <ais523> whereas I just want to get on and write INTERCAL compilers...
23:04:57 <tusho> ais523: and you just found out it supports your workflow fine...
23:05:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I'd recommend "keep darcs" then
23:05:12 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but he can't use the ESO code browser then
23:05:17 <tusho> without his awful convert-to-git-regularly hack
23:05:28 <tusho> anyway, /me dances the victory dance.
23:05:30 <AnMaster> tusho, why would he want that code browser
23:05:37 <tusho> AnMaster: because he said he did
23:05:46 <tusho> and wrote an awful hack to get it working
23:05:49 <ais523> AnMaster: trac handles darcs?
23:05:50 <tusho> and trac is awful, awful
23:06:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I *think* there may be a plugin for it
23:06:08 <tusho> ais523: i thought you said that git was designed for your workflow, anyway
23:06:21 <AnMaster> ais523, I know there is a plugin for bzr in trac, and iirc one for mercurial
23:06:42 <ais523> tusho: yes, its designed for lots of other workflows too
23:06:51 <tusho> ais523: and that's good - think of all the other contributors
23:07:01 <tusho> if you've found that out, can't we just get on with it and live in esogitty harmony
23:07:08 <ais523> tusho: well, why can't we serve to them in both git and darcs?
23:07:10 <AnMaster> ais523, and mercurial got a VERY GOOD code browser
23:07:17 <tusho> not this again, we've already argued about this
23:07:19 <ais523> AnMaster: try telling tusho that
23:07:27 <tusho> AnMaster: mercurial does not support ais523's darcs-esque workflow in any way
23:07:29 <ais523> e's the one who installed the browsers
23:07:31 <tusho> and I know, having used it for ages
23:07:47 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't there a good code browser for darcs too?
23:07:49 <ais523> tusho: the main issue is you wanting to have a list of all the repos on the front page
23:08:05 <ais523> otherwise having different browsers for different formats would be fine
23:08:05 <tusho> that's utterly untrue
23:08:09 <tusho> that's utterly untrue
23:08:14 <AnMaster> ais523, a quick google: http://progetti.arstecnica.it/trac+darcs/
23:08:21 <tusho> and this belongs in #ESO
23:08:23 <ais523> tusho: there's no other good reason to have /everything/ in git format
23:08:27 <tusho> and this belongs in #ESO
23:08:35 <ais523> tusho: but then AnMaster couldn't join in the argument
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23:08:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that is what he wants!
23:08:47 <tusho> ais523: his part consists of endlessly repeating 'use mercurial'...
23:08:59 <AnMaster> ais523, so I agree lets keep it here
23:09:09 <AnMaster> tusho, http://progetti.arstecnica.it/trac+darcs/
23:09:29 <tusho> AnMaster: yay! now I can use the shitty trac with darcs!
23:09:32 <tusho> that solves all the world's problems
23:09:50 <AnMaster> ais523, note I haven't tried that trac plugin so no idea if it is good
23:09:55 <AnMaster> ais523, but maybe worth a truy
23:10:10 <tusho> i thought you were discussing this in #ESO
23:10:13 <ais523> ...so I voice AnMaster in #ESO, and tusho leaves in protest?
23:10:21 <AnMaster> tusho, no since you parted there
23:10:28 <tusho> it was an opt-out of an argument going nowhere
23:10:32 <tusho> which I'm not interested in following
23:11:41 <ais523> hmm... trac's got a bit spiffier since I last used it
23:11:47 <ais523> last year, on a major University project
23:11:57 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah trac 0.11 is quite good
23:12:03 <AnMaster> compared with the previous one
23:12:08 <ais523> and it was pretty good even then
23:12:11 <AnMaster> iirc 0.11 is still in beta though
23:12:11 <tusho> i could go on about all the hidden gotchas and failures of trac
23:12:16 <ais523> although tusho seems not to like it for some reason
23:12:21 <ais523> tusho: go on, you might convince me
23:12:23 <tusho> but I won't, because I opt-outed of that argument
23:12:32 <ais523> tusho: well, then you won't convince me
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23:12:39 <ais523> if you don't provide arguments
23:12:46 <tusho> ais523: i didn't have any hope of convincing you in the first place
23:12:51 <AnMaster> lament, care to kickban tusho again? ;)
23:13:10 <ais523> can someone other than tusho explain what happened then?
23:13:12 <tusho> yes, because I have flagrantly disturbed the channel
23:13:19 <ais523> I've heard the story from them, but it may be biased
23:13:28 <tusho> and deserve a kickban from not wanting to participate in this
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23:13:50 <tusho> anyway, I requested the kickban as a joke
23:13:55 <AnMaster> ais523, well trac can be a bit hard to setup I agree, and it is a "all in one solution" which means it isn't the best at any of the tasks
23:13:58 <tusho> oh, and Phenax was the one who was legitimately going to be kickbanned
23:14:07 <tusho> because he talks like this:
23:14:22 <AnMaster> ais523, for example the trac bug tracker is quite bad compared with, say, mantis
23:14:32 <ais523> AnMaster: it reminded me of bugzilla a lot
23:14:33 <AnMaster> but it integrate well into the other parts
23:14:46 <Phenax> im too fucking badass to get kickbanned motherfuckas!
23:14:46 <tusho> AnMaster: c-intercal already has a bug tracker, for what it's worth
23:14:57 <ais523> both Debian and Ubuntu set one up
23:15:05 <ais523> I think they do it as a matter of course
23:15:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I may write an ebuild for c-intercal
23:15:31 <ais523> nobody's tried to use Ubuntu's but me, though
23:15:34 <tusho> 15:24:49 <Phenax> one tyme my profesor did dat 2 and i was like holy shat i got like 4 routersa that are MIPS
23:15:34 <tusho> 15:30:20 <Phenax> augur: im lookin fo sometin i can drink durin class i dun rly wanna pop any pills durin class
23:15:35 <tusho> 15:30:26 <Phenax> campus securiy canna b liek waddat
23:15:35 <tusho> 15:31:15 <Phenax> BUT I ALSO WANT TO FUCKIHN BURP IN MY PROFESSORS FACE AND IT NEEDS TO SMELL LIEK ENERGY
23:15:35 <tusho> 15:34:30 <Phenax> randall is betta dan spinelli olol
23:15:38 <lament> Phenax: are you at all interested in esoteric languages, or only in talking like a gangsta?
23:16:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ebuild = gentoo package (or rather building instructions)
23:16:17 <ais523> trac is missing good dependency support on bugs
23:16:22 <ais523> AnMaster: interesting idea
23:16:31 <ais523> there was an RPM at one point, but it's unmaintained
23:16:35 <AnMaster> ais523, yes agreed about the bugs dependency, there is a plugin for it
23:16:44 <AnMaster> not sure if 0.11 got it by default
23:16:51 <ais523> and apparently Debian got an earlier version running on the Hurd
23:16:53 <AnMaster> ais523, an ebuild should be rather simple
23:16:54 <tusho> ais523: anyway, if you found out that git supports your workflow fine, ESO already has some stuff working on git and it's all fine, can't we just stop talking about this and get on with things?
23:16:57 <tusho> just a random idea
23:17:01 <tusho> it's very unproductive, this
23:17:11 <AnMaster> isn't is basically ./configure --prefix=/usr && make && make install
23:17:15 <ais523> tusho: maybe I want to do something other than ESO
23:17:20 <AnMaster> ais523, or is there any other steps?
23:17:34 <ais523> there shouldn't be if everything goes to plan
23:17:39 <tusho> it was just an extra reason to use it
23:17:43 <tusho> (along with its large adoption)
23:17:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what about cflags? does a general sane CFLAGS="-O2 -march=<something> -pipe" work for it?
23:18:08 <ais523> although I think the Makefile specifies its own cflags in some cases
23:18:12 <ais523> oh, I think -j might fail
23:18:19 <ais523> I may have to look into that
23:18:25 <AnMaster> ais523, should be quite simple to write an ebuild
23:18:36 <AnMaster> need some MAKEOPTS filtering maybe
23:18:38 <ais523> AnMaster: do you use gentoo?
23:19:03 <ais523> well, I'm pretty sure it works on the BSDs now
23:19:08 <AnMaster> also used to use slackware, don't do atm
23:19:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well bsd I use for servers...
23:19:22 <ais523> apparently it didn't work on Cygwin the last time someone tried
23:19:25 <AnMaster> not going to try c-intercal there
23:19:46 <ais523> AnMaster: well, unless you have INTERCAL programs running on the servers and need to compile the libraries for OpenBSD/FreeBSD
23:19:57 <ais523> but I think the Cygwin person was using it wrong
23:20:01 <ais523> or got the build process wrong
23:20:10 <ais523> anyway I've torn out and replaced the build process since
23:20:15 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: well, unless you have INTERCAL programs running on the servers and need to compile the libraries for OpenBSD/FreeBSD <-- I don't...
23:20:41 <ais523> AnMaster: if INTERCAL takes off, maybe some day you will need to run INTERCAL programs on your servers
23:20:51 <tusho> takes off since 197X? :P
23:21:05 <ais523> tusho: well, it got a lot more active in the early 1990s
23:21:11 <ais523> when someone actually wrote a modern compiler for it
23:21:14 <tusho> ais523: that's called "the internet"
23:21:18 <ais523> and now its control structure is almost nice
23:21:33 <ais523> its just expressions and string-handling that need help
23:21:58 <tusho> ais523: and its syntax.
23:22:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the official url to c-intercal?
23:22:09 <tusho> AnMaster: has none
23:22:14 <tusho> intercal.freeshell.org hosts the downloads
23:22:22 <ais523> AnMaster: release versions: http://intercal.freeshell.org/download
23:22:26 <tusho> maybe c-intercal.eso-std.org will show something at one point, though :-P
23:22:35 <AnMaster> ais523, that mirror have been down sometimes
23:22:49 <ais523> development version: currently http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal
23:22:53 <tusho> that links to elliotthird.org
23:23:05 <ais523> although your mirror of it's missing
23:23:06 <tusho> ais523: and soon to be http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal.git right? ;)) </flamebait, please please ignore>
23:23:14 <tusho> elliotthird.org is zip for now
23:23:25 <ais523> ah, you put it back up
23:23:37 <tusho> it just goes to eso-std.org
23:23:39 <ais523> tusho: yes, you can have that URL fine, let me just set up a cronjob...
23:25:51 <tusho> that is more fitting
23:32:16 <ais523> tusho: you killed the conversation
23:32:37 <ais523> AnMaster: intercal.freeshell.org's mirrored itself, btw
23:33:19 <ais523> at least, the files to download are
23:33:24 <ais523> not sure about the page that links to them
23:34:54 <ais523> http://packages.debian.org/sid/hurd-i386/intercal/download <-- seriously, what a ridiculous thing to do
23:35:03 * ais523 doubts anyone tries to run Intercal under Hurd
23:37:07 <tusho> it's automatic ais523 ...
23:37:09 * AnMaster doubts anyone tries to run Hurd
23:37:23 <ais523> but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous
23:37:41 <ais523> at least, when Hurd finally takes off and overtakes Linux, people will be able to run INTERCAL programs on it!
23:38:29 <AnMaster> ais523, would dev-util fit for c-intercal?
23:38:43 <ais523> c-intercal's a compiler and debugger
23:38:52 <ais523> so it should be in the same package category as gcc, probably
23:39:00 <ais523> in terms of what it does, not in terms of importance
23:39:12 <AnMaster> which is reserved for system packages
23:39:16 <ais523> ok, so less important, but the same sort of thing
23:39:19 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway: http://rafb.net/p/G6tQAh69.html
23:39:21 <ais523> dev-util seems about right
23:39:56 <ais523> dev-util doesn't look like it contains compilers
23:40:10 <ais523> just development utilities that aren't compilers or interps
23:40:14 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/PHuaTE63.html
23:40:16 <ais523> but maybe I just don't recognise any there
23:40:45 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/JISgdH87.html
23:41:25 <ais523> ah, that looks more like it
23:41:47 <ais523> presumably convickt would go in dev-util
23:41:57 <ais523> but make install installs both ick and convickt at the moment
23:42:00 <AnMaster> how was the version number now again?
23:42:06 <AnMaster> iirc there was something complex there
23:42:40 <AnMaster> well that means I will have to actually call it 28.0 in portage I guess
23:42:42 <ais523> so 0.28 = 28.0 in a normal system
23:42:51 <ais523> or 28:0.28 is what Debian call it
23:42:52 <AnMaster> or the package manager will freak out
23:43:00 <ais523> they dupe the most significant part to the start
23:43:07 <AnMaster> as : is reserved for something else
23:43:14 <ais523> AnMaster: epoch number?
23:43:21 <ais523> that's what it means in Debian
23:43:26 <ais523> otherwise, 28.0.28 I guess
23:43:32 <AnMaster> as you can install different ones side by side
23:44:15 <ais523> well, I think it's unlikely that people would simultaneously install two versions of C-INTERCAL
23:44:32 <AnMaster> well portage would barf on a version containing ;
23:44:49 <ais523> so it sorts properly, and also looks right
23:45:35 <AnMaster> portage uses - to separate package name and version
23:45:39 <ais523> it's just 'intercal' to debian
23:45:46 <ais523> but that's just biased
23:45:57 <ais523> clc_intercal deserves a say, too
23:46:06 <ais523> or you could call it ick after the binary, but that's probably a bad idea
23:46:58 <AnMaster> ais523, care to give me a one line package description?
23:47:17 <ais523> C-INTERCAL - INTERCAL to binary (via C) compiler
23:47:19 <AnMaster> "The GNU Compiler Collection. Includes C/C++, java compilers, pie+ssp extensions, Haj Ten Brugge runtime bounds checking" is about max lenght
23:47:50 <ais523> intercal.freeshell.org
23:48:29 <AnMaster> "http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz"
23:48:37 <AnMaster> it would make my life easier :P
23:48:39 <ais523> 8.3 filenames and all that
23:52:10 <AnMaster> KEYWORDS="~alpha ~amd64 ~ia64 ~ppc ~ppc64 ~sparc ~x86 ~x86-fbsd"
23:52:18 <AnMaster> or what platforms does it work on?
23:52:21 <ais523> well, it should work on all platforms
23:52:27 <ais523> thanks in part to your debugging
23:52:34 <ais523> oh, int has to be at least 32 bit
23:52:39 <ais523> but everything does that nowadays
23:52:46 <ais523> AnMaster: nearly all of it's GPL2
23:52:51 <ais523> apart from the documentation's GFDL
23:52:53 <AnMaster> ais523, well what one should I put there
23:52:58 <ais523> and the skeleton files are PD
23:53:25 <ais523> and development headers like stdio.h
23:53:33 <ais523> presumably Gentoo will have those already
23:53:47 <ais523> or it couldn't build it
23:53:53 <ais523> but if you can build it, you can run it, I think
23:54:00 <AnMaster> it *could* have another compiler
23:54:12 <ais523> well, C-INTERCAL can run on other compilers, technically
23:54:16 <ais523> but that hasn't been tested for years
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23:54:26 <ais523> and some advanced features require gcc
23:54:50 <AnMaster> >>> Creating Manifest for /usr/local/portage/generic-overlay/dev-lang/c_intercal
23:55:18 <ais523> I have to leave in a couple of minutes
23:55:19 <AnMaster> >>> Unpacking ick-0-28.tgz to /var/tmp/portage/dev-lang/c_intercal-28.0.28/work
23:55:47 <ais523> that's configure, 8.3ised
23:55:48 <AnMaster> that really really makes it complex
23:55:59 <ais523> AnMaster: just add a symlink from configure
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23:57:18 <AnMaster> well I'm asking in #gentoo-dev-help now
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23:57:51 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> hi I need some help with a package that call it's configure for "config.sh" due to dos compatibility (yes!)
23:57:51 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> how do you tell econf about that?
23:58:20 <ais523> but I'll see how it went tommorow, probably
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00:10:13 <ihope> Hi, RodgerTheGreat.
00:10:21 <ihope> Everyone else is denied my hello today.
00:11:47 <ihope> I thought it somewhat appropriate because--hey, does this sketch indicate that Dr. T has a device for using his cute little tyrannosaurus arms more like human hands?
00:12:32 <RodgerTheGreat> having two claws is rather limiting for tasks involving fine manipulation
00:13:22 <ihope> Does it have a cute little AI to do with it, rather than somehow being fully controlled by only however many degrees of freedom two claws gives?
00:13:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't go into detail. I was thinking neural interface
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00:32:02 <Slereah> Why is lambda calcul named thusly?
00:32:13 <Slereah> I can see the pi <-> processus, but why lambda?
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00:33:41 <ihope> Maybe when Church invented it, he decided to use a lambda to denote a function, then he named the thing after it. Or some other such, I guess.
00:35:00 <Slereah> Lambda seems like an odd choice, though
00:35:21 <oklofok> "so what did you name that construct of yours?" "lamb, duh."
00:35:22 <ihope> What would be a better choice?
00:35:22 <Slereah> He wasn't German or anything, so what could it mean in English?
00:35:31 <Sgeo> Firefox 3 was mentioned on the Cobert Report on Tuesday
00:35:59 <oklofok> i'd go with my explanation, it makes so much sense i could swallow it whole.
00:36:12 <Slereah> I dunno, since I don't know what it stands for
00:37:04 <oklofok> S:"explain X" o:"explains X..." S:"i don't know if that's right because i don't know what's right"
00:37:08 <oklofok> man, you can't question everything
00:37:15 <oklofok> some things, you just have to accept.
00:37:40 <oklofok> like peanuts, the existance of god, and the sheep fetish church had
00:38:00 <Slereah> But Church wasn't sexy, so it doesn't fit in my head
00:42:24 <oklofok> now you're just being silly
00:44:04 <Slereah> Nothing in the original article :o
00:44:16 <Slereah> Let's invoke the spirit of Alonzo Caspip.
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01:03:53 <ihope> So in pi calculus, threads send channels to each other via channels?
01:06:12 <Slereah> Well, it's a way to see it.
01:06:40 <Slereah> You can also throw the semantics away and just keep the name transfering.
01:07:53 <Slereah> Or you can use biscuit trucks.
01:08:11 <AnMaster> anyway I made an ebuild for C-INTERCAL
01:10:16 <Slereah> Problem with the names is, I don't have an easy way to mix the names and the functions.
01:12:14 <oklofok> Slereah: eagerly waiting for limp
01:12:43 <Slereah> I don't have much clue of how to deal with pi in scheme.
01:12:48 <oklofok> don't you tell me what not to be too.
01:15:44 <Slereah> I'm not too sure what language to use.
01:16:08 <Slereah> It would probably be easier in Python, since it has lambdas, function definition and is imperative.
01:27:28 <Slereah> Python is usually quite slow when I make it do huge things.
01:27:43 <Slereah> And from what I saw, it doesn't fare well in performance tests.
01:29:16 <Slereah> Any critics on the language so far?
01:47:48 <augur> how has reactance changed?
01:48:04 <oklofok> augur: i can show you logs tomorrow
01:48:14 <augur> just off the top of your head
01:48:19 <augur> what do you think has changed?
02:02:59 <Slereah> Do you think I need a particular way to differentiate strings (ie : list of numbers) from names in limp?
02:03:10 <Slereah> Or do I just try to let the context do it?
02:40:19 <augur> strings vs names??
02:40:25 <augur> whats the supposed difference?
02:40:41 <Slereah> Well, the I/O works with strings.
02:40:56 <Slereah> Actually, they are lists of numbers, for the functional part.
02:41:23 <Slereah> and actually, they're not really lists. They're consed together like a conga line (there's no null type)
02:42:00 <Slereah> On the other hand, the pi part uses names.
02:42:08 <augur> oh i see, you're doing pi calculus
02:42:13 <augur> nevermind, i have nothing to contribute
03:00:26 <ihope> Haskell doesn't have any non-deterministic bits, does it?
03:00:55 <ihope> Well, apart from any undefined behavior it may have.
03:01:22 <Slereah> Well, I'm sure it has some random number liberries
03:04:25 <ihope> Yes, but saying "flip a coin" is not the same as saying "pick one".
03:05:27 <Slereah> Well, he could pick the one on the left if it's head.
03:06:45 <ihope> Choosing "left if it's heads, right if it's tails" isn't really a choice at all, as "right if it's heads, left if it's tails" produces exactly the same result.
03:08:00 <Slereah> Then on what criterias do you chose?
03:08:08 <Slereah> And how is that non-determinism?
03:09:06 <Slereah> For some reason, I have the Meow Mix song on my MP3 player, and never knew about it.
03:20:28 <ihope> Well, if I have a programming language with a function pick(a,b) that returns either a or b, a compiler might always return a, or always b, or whichever's smaller, or whichever looks more like a giraffe in its opinion.
03:20:41 <ihope> Whichever, in the compiler's opinion, is best.
03:21:21 <Slereah> Well, wouldn't that depend on the compiler?
03:21:37 <Slereah> Then why ask about Huskoll?
03:22:55 <Slereah> Plus Hoskoll is horrible :o
03:23:30 <ihope> Why should Haskell not have nondeterministic stuff, if that's what you're asking?
03:23:52 <Slereah> I'm asking that if it depends on the compiler, why ask about the language.
03:24:10 <ihope> The language is what specifies what the compiler's allowed to do.
03:24:25 <ihope> If the compiler is given freedom, that's nondeterminism of a sort.
03:29:28 <Slereah> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/bugs-and-infelicities.html
03:29:37 <Slereah> "13.1.2. GHC's interpretation of undefined behaviour in Haskell 98"
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05:33:38 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme
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05:39:47 <Slereah> Almost finished the specs of my new language.
05:40:57 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Limp
05:49:39 <Slereah> Still need to clean up the page, though
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07:43:07 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> XORs are conditional inverters :) <-- yes and?
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08:18:41 <psygnisfive> we need to consider two things, oklopol. ais brought them up earlier.
09:05:05 <AnMaster> anyone seen ais or ehird today?
09:05:27 <psygnisfive> whereby earlier means yesterday, but thats today for me ;)
09:05:52 <AnMaster> I mean today as in European time
09:10:59 <AnMaster> because that would be midnight
10:08:33 <oklopol> today, i'm going to DRINK MYSELF DRUNK
10:10:41 <oklopol> psygnisfive: they both used to be active
10:10:48 <oklopol> you've changed that at some point
10:10:56 <oklopol> they're both active in my implementation
10:22:53 <oklopol> i'm sure i've asked you exactly whether they x->z; y->z should keep both reactions, but cannot find that in my logs
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12:57:41 * ais523 's exam results came out today
12:59:13 <ais523> ah, I finally figured out what I'd got wrong on my option form
12:59:21 <ais523> I was having problems counting to 120 in units of 10
12:59:28 <ais523> which should be a simple task for a programmer
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15:11:39 <ais523> back, sorry it took so long
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15:41:19 <tusho> 're being slow, ais523
15:41:28 <tusho> ah, idle half an hour
15:41:49 <tusho> ais523: using an ajax client again...?
15:41:49 <ais523> I was looking at the wrong part of the screen
15:42:09 <ais523> so you did /version me the other time I used one
15:42:21 <ais523> either that, or it overrode my quit message
15:42:25 <tusho> ais523: colloquy VERSION's on /whois
15:42:36 <tusho> ais523: no, it's your hostname
15:42:39 <tusho> gateawy/web/ajax/mibbit.com/
15:42:44 <ais523> oh, yes that would give it away
15:42:55 <ais523> it seems to give my real hostname as my realname for some reason...
15:43:07 <tusho> ais523: yes, because all mibbit connections come from mibbit servers
15:43:09 <tusho> so for effective bans...
15:43:18 <tusho> they forward your hostname
15:43:28 <ais523> I was wondering how they did it
15:43:34 <ais523> the realname field seems a strange place to put it
15:44:34 <tusho> ais523: where do you suggest putting it?
15:44:47 <tusho> the hostname is a mibbit cloak (which is sane)
15:44:57 <tusho> the username is the mibbit identifier thing for your session
15:45:00 <tusho> so ... what's left is the real name
15:45:03 <ais523> tusho: there's a real-hostname field in the USER command IIRC
15:45:11 <ais523> but it's ignored by most servers
15:45:15 <ais523> because they have no way to trust it
15:45:24 <ais523> presumably, though, they would trust it if it came from mibbit
15:45:26 <tusho> in the latest rfc it's explicitly ignored
15:45:40 <tusho> 01:05:05 <AnMaster> anyone seen ais or ehird today?
15:45:47 <ais523> tusho: well, I just put xs there for ease of typing
15:45:48 <tusho> correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he ask that at like 5am
15:46:13 <ais523> hmm... well, I was asleep at 5am GMT (= 6am BST)
15:46:28 <tusho> er, yes, BST is what I meant
15:46:32 <tusho> god I hate summer time
15:46:41 <tusho> to me, GMT=GMT+BST-when-needed
15:47:44 <tusho> ais523: OISC is #1 on proggit
15:47:46 <tusho> though the wikipedia article..
15:48:12 <ais523> personally, I like MiniMAX
15:48:16 <ais523> as being an unconventional way to do an OISC
15:48:23 <tusho> ais523: post it on the comments, then :-P
15:48:30 <tusho> it'll be someone other than me linking to esolangs.org...
15:48:40 <ais523> tusho: because you've linked it too many times already?
15:49:04 <tusho> it's a shame that my #1 voted comment is a lolcats joke
15:49:22 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/info/61gcu/comments/c02jatt
15:49:27 <ais523> well, esolangs is linked from the Wikipedia article
15:49:40 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/info/61gcu/comments/c02jahi
15:49:45 <tusho> if you want to actually understand my comment :-P
15:50:26 <ais523> the comment by ealf references Iota
15:50:35 <ais523> so someone else is up on the game, too
15:50:49 <tusho> ais523: people know esolangs
15:50:50 <tusho> just not esolangs.org
15:50:58 <tusho> also, iota is soooooooooooooooo a cheat
15:51:02 <tusho> sure the syntax is minimal
15:51:04 <tusho> but the semantics are huge
15:51:09 <tusho> first, you bring in the lambda calculus
15:51:09 <ais523> well, it's a reasonably complex combinator
15:51:12 <tusho> then, you bring in S and K
15:51:17 <tusho> then, you invent your own combinator on top of it
15:51:32 <ais523> tusho: no, it's a unique combinator that can be expressed in terms of S and K, or as a lambda
15:51:35 <tusho> is iota even a combinator?
15:51:40 <tusho> S and K are just shorthand for lambda expressions
15:51:41 <ais523> but still, it's a pretty complicated combinator
15:51:52 <ais523> tusho: yes, so is iota
15:51:52 <tusho> \x.x(\xyz.xz(yz))(\xy.x)
15:51:58 <tusho> that's not a combinator
15:52:32 <tusho> so iota = \x.x(\xyz.xz(yz))(\xy.x)
15:52:35 <tusho> therefore, iota is not a combinator
15:52:39 <ais523> try it with unique variable names
15:52:44 <ais523> you're shadowing there, making it harder to read
15:53:02 <tusho> \x.x(\abc.ac(bc))(\ab.a)
15:53:04 <ais523> \a.a(\b.\c.\d.bd(cd)(\e.\f.e)
15:53:20 <ais523> to make all the lambdas have unique names and separated
15:53:32 <tusho> ais523: it's still not a combinator?
15:53:43 <ais523> well, what does combinator mean, precisely?
15:53:44 <tusho> A combinator is a higher-order function which, for defining a result from its arguments, solely uses function application and earlier defined combinators.
15:53:52 <tusho> that makes combinator=lambda
15:53:59 <tusho> I'm pretty sure combinators are non-nestedlambdas
15:54:02 <ais523> tusho: no, it makes combinators=combinators
15:54:18 <tusho> but I'm probably totally wrong
15:55:22 <tusho> I attempt to learn grammar and spelling. - Quazie
15:55:29 <ais523> I like the MiniMAX single instruction partly because it's easy to express in x86 asm, and partly because it's unique compared to the other OISCs
15:55:42 <ais523> oh, and it takes no arguments, but depends on two pointers of internal state
15:55:53 <ais523> I suppose you could say that those pointers, plus memory, are its arguments
15:56:06 <ais523> the initial state of memory and the pointers is a MiniMAX program
15:57:23 <ais523> MiniMAX is harder to get one's head around than the other OISCs, though
15:57:45 <AnMaster> <tusho> 01:05:05 <AnMaster> anyone seen ais or ehird today?
15:58:08 <AnMaster> or the ebuild will fail with "trying to write outside sandbox"
15:58:28 <AnMaster> also I need to pre-create /usr/bin and /usr/lib in the DESTDIR
15:58:41 <tusho> heh, cool, ais523 used an eso-std.org userdir
15:58:49 <AnMaster> it tried to install an archive as /usr/lib64
15:59:02 <AnMaster> ais523, however I can upload it somewhere
15:59:11 <ais523> AnMaster: why did it do that?
15:59:15 <ais523> it shouldn't have done
15:59:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? it didn't mkdir as needed
15:59:30 <ais523> AnMaster: I have a mkdir -p in there now
15:59:38 <ais523> oh, you're using the version on intercal.freeshell.org?
16:00:00 <ais523> AnMaster: the repo's at http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal
16:00:09 <ais523> I can make a tarball for you pretty easily if you like
16:00:18 <AnMaster> ais523, the ebuild itself is at http://rafb.net/p/y4VDk286.html
16:02:09 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/Drn0Dy41.html
16:02:32 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/Mvdg3I17.html is the other patch
16:02:37 <tusho> i am amazed that someone would put a trivial 45 line file under the gpl3
16:03:00 <AnMaster> tusho, well GPL2 would be ok too
16:03:29 <tusho> yeah, people using the gpl3 are living in the past
16:03:32 <tusho> I totally agree ;)
16:04:08 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/H5ikiY96.html
16:04:23 <tusho> cool, I have power over people
16:04:23 <ais523> AnMaster: probably best to keep with your patches until the next release version of C-INTERCAL comes out, with those issues fixed
16:04:32 * tusho uses his magical powers for good and evil
16:04:44 <AnMaster> tusho, well I would do it GPL2 anyway
16:05:08 <ais523> because I kept the same licence it traditionally had
16:05:11 <ais523> well, GPL2+ to be precise
16:05:20 <AnMaster> ais523, should I submit it to bgo?
16:05:50 <ais523> AnMaster: may as well, if you can submit updated versions in the future
16:05:51 <AnMaster> (bgo = bugs.gentoo.org, where you submit new ebuilds as well)
16:06:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well, it should be fairly trivial to update, remove some patches as they are accepted upstream (like http://rafb.net/p/Mvdg3I17.html the current way is just plain wrong)
16:06:52 <AnMaster> NO other software try to touch the info files
16:07:09 <AnMaster> automake won't touch the dir files for example
16:07:27 <tusho> this is kind of like hobix
16:07:28 <ais523> anyway, C-INTERCAL 0.29 (under development) no longer tries that unless you're root
16:07:37 <tusho> which upgrades itself via base64 yaml transmission via http
16:07:40 <ais523> actually, unless the dir file's in your prefix
16:07:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well you could be root but in a sandbox
16:07:43 <tusho> by eval()ing some ruby from the hobix site
16:07:45 <ais523> it's mandb it doesn't do unless you're root
16:07:55 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe I should have an install-sane target
16:08:12 <AnMaster> ais523, and well gentoo simply uses DESTDIR for installing to the "stage"
16:08:30 <ais523> I mkdir -p the target dirs now if they don't exist
16:08:53 <AnMaster> + 1) sandbox.so LD_PRELOADed library that intercepts syscalls. 2) non-root access
16:09:32 <AnMaster> as the first alternative isn't as secure really, what about static binaries
16:09:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I suppose you could wrap the syscalls themselves
16:10:11 <AnMaster> gentoo can use a vanilla kernel
16:10:26 <ais523> which pretends to a program it has root priveliges even if it doesn't
16:10:42 <AnMaster> I don't know if gentoo uses something like that or not
16:11:07 * AnMaster preprares to submit the ebuild
16:27:35 <AnMaster> ais523, https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=228563
16:30:42 <AnMaster> ais523, don't expect too much progress
16:30:50 <AnMaster> they will probably see it as a joke
16:30:58 <AnMaster> it will need some developer to be interested
16:30:58 <ais523> Debian have it as a package
16:31:24 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but debian seem to have some policy like "make everything we can a package, except when we don't like the author"
16:33:13 <tusho> anyway, c-intercal isn't a joke
16:33:22 <tusho> it's actually pretty darn popular as esolangs go
16:33:31 <tusho> and, you know, people actually compile intercal with it quite often
16:33:41 <tusho> therefore, there are likely gentoo users who have a use for it, quite a few
16:33:45 <tusho> therefore, rejecting it is silly
16:35:40 <AnMaster> but it just being forgotten == quite likely
16:39:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the darcs url you said?
16:40:12 <ais523> http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal
16:40:26 <ais523> contains bugfixes for all the bugs you reported
16:44:01 <tusho> trac.minitage.org uses an invalid security certificate.
16:44:01 <tusho> The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is unknown.
16:44:04 <tusho> FIREFOX 3 FEATURE DIE DIE DIE
16:44:38 <ais523> tusho: but all browsers report that
16:44:46 <ais523> it's an uncertified certificate
16:44:50 <ais523> anyone could have generated it
16:44:51 <tusho> ais523: but firefox displays it as an error page
16:44:55 <tusho> and you have to click 4 times to view the page
16:45:04 <ais523> tusho: epiphany's even stronger in that case
16:45:07 <tusho> (more info, Add Exception, Get Certificate, Confirm certificate)
16:45:12 <tusho> it even does it for self-signed ones
16:45:16 <ais523> you have to go to options and add an exception yourself to be able to view the page
16:45:39 <ais523> tusho: no, blindly assuming self-signed certificates are OK is the incorrect thing there
16:45:53 <tusho> so just display a notice
16:45:59 <tusho> and let you do one click to view the page
16:46:12 <ais523> tusho: people are used to just ignoring message boxes
16:46:23 <tusho> ais523: yeah, well this is the wrong way out
16:46:34 <tusho> heh, firefox's ligature support scares me
16:46:38 <tusho> 'fi' looks all weird on pages
16:46:38 <ais523> Firefox even has time limits on being able to click 'OK' on warning boxes for install, etc
16:46:53 <tusho> i think the new approach is called the UAC School of Design approach
16:48:27 <AnMaster> <ais523> tusho: no, blindly assuming self-signed certificates are OK is the incorrect thing there
16:48:35 <AnMaster> not everyone can afford verisign
16:48:55 <tusho> The error with Firefox is treating https as a security mechanism.
16:49:03 <tusho> as a _veirfying_ mechanism
16:49:04 <ais523> there should be some sort of minimum-security certificate
16:49:12 <ais523> which says "yes, this is unverified, and I know about it"
16:49:31 <ais523> which doesn't put the secure-site paraphenalia on the interface, but still encrypts the communications
16:51:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yellow address bar, lock icons everywhere
16:52:24 <ais523> also Firefox, Epiphany, IE, and Mozilla
16:52:30 <tusho> AnMaster: that's everywhere, fyi.
16:52:43 <ais523> I only normally use IE for email, though
16:52:49 <ais523> and occasionally IE-only sites
16:52:53 <ais523> I actually came across one today
16:52:54 <tusho> anyway, locks tend to make average joe think 'trustable'
16:52:55 <tusho> in a web situation
16:53:04 <tusho> which is why it's a very inappropriate metaphor
16:53:07 <ais523> which would have worked fine in Firefox except it had a bad interaction with the popup-blocker
16:53:07 <tusho> but it's really hard to find a good one
16:53:14 <tusho> since a lot of the concepts have no corresponding one in the real world...
16:53:25 <tusho> really, we just need to educate users. an icon will never explain things
16:54:16 <AnMaster> well I don't care about non-geeks
16:54:29 <tusho> I agree, let's let them all give away their credit card info
16:54:36 <ais523> AnMaster: most non-geeks do
16:54:42 <tusho> or lock off computers to people who don't know their innate workings!
16:54:46 <tusho> totally the best way to solve the problem
16:55:13 <tusho> 'stupid' != 'does not understand computers'
16:55:15 <AnMaster> helpdesk humor isn't that far from reality
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16:55:43 <ais523> I have to go for a while
16:55:46 <AnMaster> my dad is a professor, yet he needs to ask me to open a picture he got by mail
16:55:46 <ais523> but I'll be back this evening
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17:09:07 <AnMaster> /tmp/ccLj01UL.o: In function `ick_og86e9b0':
17:09:08 <AnMaster> hello.c:(.text+0x1ca): undefined reference to `ick_or0'
17:10:07 <tusho> c-intercal uses hex pointer addresses
17:10:14 <tusho> so I guess something's going wrong with pointer->int
17:11:45 <tusho> AnMaster: it seems like the kind of thing openbsd would do, preventing that ...
17:11:50 <tusho> shrug. What system is it?
17:15:13 <tusho> shrug. What system is it?
17:15:21 <AnMaster> the ebuild works on one gentoo but not on another
17:15:25 <tusho> 'it breaks on one system with'
17:15:28 <tusho> what do you mean one gentoo
17:15:32 <tusho> what hardware differences
17:16:00 <tusho> AnMaster: it's the hardware, i'm sure
17:16:01 <AnMaster> tusho, both are x86_64, one got a sempron 3300+ the other got a athlon64 3300+
17:16:08 <tusho> there has to be some difference
17:16:32 <AnMaster> both got nvidia geforce 7600 cards
17:16:33 <tusho> how about the actual differences
17:16:59 <AnMaster> tusho, as far as I know there are none apart from the CPU and that one have slightly larger harddrive (500 GB vs 350 GB)
17:17:23 <tusho> AnMaster: well, there has to be something
17:17:24 <AnMaster> oh yes different mobos due to different sockets for CPUs
17:17:25 <tusho> try re-running ick?
17:17:57 <tusho> AnMaster: you could try reading ick's code
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17:18:10 <tusho> (there is one file that tries to be as close to idiomatic perl as possible, though)
17:18:23 <tusho> (because it was translated from a CLC-INTERCAL perl file, and ais523 kept perl idioms in there as a kind of homage)
17:18:52 <AnMaster> apart from the top line with command for compiling it
17:19:44 <tusho> AnMaster: paste the two lines
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17:20:59 <AnMaster> tusho, actually I was wrong, they are the same
17:21:02 <AnMaster> /* -*- mode:c; compile-command:"gcc hello.c -I/usr/include/ick-0.28 -I. -I./../include -L/usr/lib64 -L. -L./../lib -O2 -o hello -lick" -*- */
17:21:19 <tusho> AnMaster: ok, poke around in the ick sources then
17:21:27 <tusho> that can't be the problem, can it?
17:21:31 <tusho> AnMaster: ok, poke around in the generated file
17:21:39 <tusho> it can't reference a non-existant identifier on one platform and not the other
17:21:41 <tusho> that's Not Possible
17:22:01 <AnMaster> tusho, I think the issue is in /usr/lib64/libick.a
17:22:08 <AnMaster> diff says "binary file differ"
17:22:16 <tusho> AnMaster: try recompiling ick
17:22:26 <AnMaster> tusho, tried that a few times already
17:22:33 <AnMaster> also with all debuginfo left and so on
17:22:46 <tusho> poke in the ick sources for libick.a
17:23:59 <AnMaster> tusho, does this program work for you http://rafb.net/p/MWMDVo63.html
17:24:26 <AnMaster> it says "THIS PROGRAM REQUIRES CLC-INTERCAL", however it *does* compile with C-INTERCAL on one system
17:24:36 <tusho> AnMaster: ... You could have told me that.
17:24:43 <tusho> Well, remember, C-INTERCAL reports a lot of errors at runtime.
17:24:53 <AnMaster> tusho, it gives *linking errors*
17:24:59 <AnMaster> /tmp/cchXHLUO.o: In function `ick_og676800':
17:25:00 <AnMaster> hello.c:(.text+0x1ca): undefined reference to `ick_or0'
17:25:00 <AnMaster> /tmp/cchXHLUO.o: In function `ick_og675980':
17:25:00 <AnMaster> hello.c:(.text+0x24a): undefined reference to `ick_or0'
17:25:02 <tusho> the behaviour on that program is undefined
17:25:06 <tusho> it requires CLC-INTERCAL
17:25:13 <AnMaster> tusho, so why does it work on one C-INTERCAL?
17:25:28 <tusho> AnMaster: it doesn't matter
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17:50:46 <tusho> ais523: you're losing your touch my boy
17:51:40 <tusho> you didn't say hi to me again
17:52:06 <ais523> because I left with a brb-ish thing, rather than a quittish thing
17:52:14 <ais523> and you replied with wb
17:52:39 <tusho> I didn't say {hi ais523}
17:52:49 <ais523> because it's inappropriate
17:52:51 <ais523> wb is more appropriate
17:52:55 <ais523> so it's a wb vs. back race
17:54:03 <tusho> you cycle, I'll try
17:54:21 <ais523> hmm... it's a different game when we both have prior knowledge
17:54:32 <ais523> um... I haven't left yet
17:54:50 <ais523> [Error] cycle: Unknown command.
17:54:53 <ais523> since when did that happen?
17:54:57 <tusho> ais523: since you used mibbit
17:55:05 <ais523> tusho: but I'm on Konversation atm
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17:55:36 <ais523> I can't switch to #esoteric fast enough after joining
17:55:38 <tusho> ais523: i did kinda have my finger over 'enter'
17:55:38 <ais523> when you're forewarned
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18:11:54 <tusho> <meta http-equiv='X-UA-Compatible' content='YOUR MOM'>
18:12:12 <tusho> ais523: X-UA-Compatible is ridiculous
18:12:23 <ais523> Slashdot's HTTP headers, which contain Futurama quotes, are more interesting
18:12:41 <tusho> ais523: well, X-UA-Compatible is meant to contain a list of browsers
18:12:47 <tusho> so the implication is slightly amusing, if nonsensical
18:12:53 <tusho> but it's the first actual x-ua-compatible i've ever seen
18:12:54 <ais523> did Microsoft invent that?
18:13:08 <ais523> oh, it's the IE8 meta tag
18:13:10 <tusho> it will make it emulate different IE/Firefox versions or whatever
18:13:19 <ais523> it will make IE emulate previous IE versions
18:13:24 <ais523> and they suggested that other browser people did the same
18:13:55 <ais523> to which they effectively said "why, when the site's standard-compliant, the browser's standard-compliant, and the standards are backward- and forward-compatible"?
18:13:56 <tusho> oh, and slashdot is the only site which uses //foo/ urls
18:14:10 <ais523> tusho: Wikimedia were thinking about using them
18:14:24 <ais523> they discussed it on their mailing list
18:14:38 <ais523> but they were doing a big test of browsers first to make sure they all actually accepted them
18:14:52 <tusho> ais523: TBL has said he regretted making them
18:14:58 <tusho> iirc, he said he wanted to make urls look like this
18:15:07 <tusho> http:org.slashdot/foo
18:15:25 <ais523> I kind-of like the double-slash
18:15:51 <tusho> one stupid thing: DTD identifiers
18:15:58 <tusho> -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//
18:16:03 <tusho> -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN
18:16:10 <tusho> - should be + for unofficial dtds
18:16:19 <tusho> then name// then lang
18:16:29 <tusho> but putting 'DTD' at the start? even sillier
18:16:39 <tusho> and they still require you to specify a url in 90% of cases
18:16:52 <tusho> <!DOCTYPE "http://w3.org/dtd/html/4.01/strict.dtd">
18:17:24 <tusho> ais523: well, yes, but universal identifiers are useful
18:17:30 <tusho> since they can be used for automated validity checking, etc
18:17:31 <ais523> even more radical, I think
18:17:39 <ais523> the funny think is that that does identify HTML5
18:17:48 <ais523> because nothing else uses it...
18:18:06 <tusho> ais523: but the thing is that tools may want to process doc types they don't know natively.
18:18:26 <ais523> yes, and they need to find the dtd somewhere
18:18:36 <ais523> and DDOS the W3C in the process
18:18:46 <ais523> because they aren't clever enough to cache DTDs...
18:18:54 <tusho> ais523: well, yeah, that's the w3cs fault
18:19:02 <tusho> and the user agent's, of course
18:19:06 <tusho> the user agent should cache it
18:19:08 <ais523> you think it should just block broken useragents?
18:19:10 <tusho> but the w3c should optimize for that
18:19:17 <tusho> ais523: that would be nice, yes
18:19:36 <ais523> someone on Slashdot suggested that they make the DTDs deliberately slow
18:19:46 <ais523> to punish useragents that try to look them up on every parse
18:20:21 <tusho> ais523: OTOH they should just block too many requests from the same ip&useragent
18:29:54 <tusho> 'Posted 2008-06-18 23:31 with 3 comments.' ... that's far too crufty
18:30:09 <tusho> '2008-06-18 23:31 / 3 comments'
18:30:16 <ais523> tusho: compress it into one number, like 3200806182331
18:30:20 <ais523> then express it in hex for brevity
18:30:24 <tusho> i'm not crazy, ais523 :)
18:30:31 <ais523> tusho: then why are you here?
18:30:39 <tusho> shush I said it was a lie
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18:35:08 * tusho can't decide if he likes Helvetica Neue or not
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18:40:56 <tusho> Ooooh, Optima is nice.
18:43:26 <tusho> Thought of the moment: Long URLs suck. Especially ones including a date
18:43:51 <tusho> ais523: Singular exception. :P
18:44:07 <tusho> http://tusho.org/long-urls-suck is so much superior to http://tusho.org/blog/2008/06/long-urls-suck
18:44:16 <tusho> (Wordpress, I believe, even includes the DAY by default!)
18:44:49 <ais523> tusho: actually, blogging software putting the title of the blog entry in the URL always looked unprofessional to me
18:45:01 <ais523> I'd expect something like http://blog.tusho.org/12
18:45:08 <ais523> where the number was a sequence number
18:45:11 <ais523> blogs are inherently ordered
18:45:15 <tusho> ais523: I, too, prefer URLs which do not offer any insight into the content lying inside!
18:45:19 <ais523> so using unordered titles for them strike me as wrong
18:45:39 <ais523> and it's not as if the title's generally insightful anyway
18:45:53 <tusho> ais523: if the title isn't insightful, then it's a bad title
18:45:59 <tusho> and if it isn't unique, then you suffix it
18:46:10 <tusho> Specifically, you don't suffix the title
18:46:13 <tusho> but the slug it's available at
18:46:30 <ais523> the titles are often cut off by blogging software
18:46:40 <ais523> also they can't handle punctuation marks that aren't legal in URLs
18:46:45 <ais523> which is necessary, but also looks stupid
18:46:48 <tusho> ais523: then the blogging software is stupid
18:46:52 <tusho> good ones let you change the slug easily
18:47:21 <tusho> e.g. I'd put 'Deluxe-O-Matic 3000 v2: A Comedy of Errors' at /deluxe-o-matic-v2-review
18:47:48 <ais523> tusho: still, that gives no clue it's a blog entry, and no clue to the sequence of events
18:47:55 <ais523> blogs are inherently ordered
18:48:11 <ais523> and there's no way to guess the URL if it's title-based
18:48:18 <ais523> you have to rely on links to articles
18:48:25 <tusho> ais523: I won't be using my blog for updatey stuff, really.
18:48:26 <ais523> whereas sequence numbers are easily linked together by hand
18:48:50 <tusho> I might have /amazingsoft-v2-release for a release announcement of Amazingsoft 2, though.
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18:49:00 <tusho> And publishing that at /3423 is just stupid.
18:49:16 <ais523> well, it's easy enough to look at 3422 to see the previous entry
18:49:23 <ais523> whereas with your scheme I can't even guess what the URL is
18:49:34 <ais523> I prefer URLs to be meaningful so that they can be adjusted by humans
18:49:41 <ais523> not to contain content that should be in the page
18:49:48 <ais523> i.e. contain keys used to fetch the data
18:49:52 <ais523> not the result of fetching that data
18:50:06 <tusho> ais523: This is some definition of 'meaningful' with which I was not previously aware.
18:50:06 * Sgeo is missing his interview so he can chat right now.
18:50:09 <ais523> don't tell me blog software seriously keys the blog entries by title
18:50:13 <tusho> and no, they don't
18:50:19 <tusho> but I don't think you understand what meaningful URLs should be
18:50:32 <ais523> tusho: URLs should be meaningful to the server that receives them
18:50:36 <ais523> I feel that, even as a user of the URL
18:50:43 <tusho> Meaningful URLs mean meaningful to a human.
18:50:52 <tusho> And, for what it's worth, looking up by the 'slug' key is not particularly difficult.
18:51:04 <ais523> on Wikipedia, I can append things like ?action=parse and so on to URLs without trouble
18:51:05 <tusho> The slug is just normally made from the title, unless you change it. Which you should, a lot of the time.
18:51:08 <ais523> and it actually happens
18:51:12 <Sgeo> So what happens if two entries would happen to have the same slug?
18:51:13 <ais523> that's what I mean by meaningful URLs
18:51:35 <tusho> Sgeo: They can't. A slug is, by definition, unique.
18:51:48 <tusho> It is a unique, meaningful, URL-safe key.
18:52:16 <Sgeo> So what if there are two entries with the same title? What's changed so that the slugs can be unique?
18:52:31 <ais523> tusho: a slug is not inherently meaningful
18:52:35 <ais523> no matter how much you might want it to be
18:52:37 <tusho> ais523: yes it is, because you make it so
18:52:48 <ais523> tusho: that would prevent it being /inherently/ meaningful
18:53:07 <tusho> ais523: if you use a slug called 'x3454', then you've missed the point of slugs.
18:53:15 <tusho> Unless it's about the X3454 dishwasher..
18:53:26 <ais523> but I'm saying the point of slugs is not useful
18:53:35 <ais523> seriously, meaningful names are too hard to guess
18:53:40 <ais523> and this is a real problem
18:54:16 <ais523> imagine if all the Agora CFJs had 'meaningful' URLs with your meaning, then I'd have to use a search engine to find individual CFJs rather than just typing in the URL
18:54:18 <Sgeo> Easier to guess than meaningless names, I'd think </random-tired-contribution>
18:54:46 <Sgeo> ais523, don't the urls have the CFJ number?
18:55:04 <Sgeo> Which isn't the software, it's part of Agora
18:55:06 <ais523> Sgeo: yes, they do right now
18:55:17 <ais523> and the ID number is a useful key to use
18:55:27 <ais523> it increases in a regular manner
18:55:44 <ais523> if the subject of a CFJ was used as a slug, it would look nicer to the reader but be harder to guess and less useful
18:56:12 <tusho> ais523: yes, but the cfj numbers are exposed to players of agora regularly
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18:56:22 <tusho> the number of a blog entry isn't on the interface
18:56:26 <tusho> and shouldn't be; nobody cares about it
18:56:28 <tusho> they care about the content
18:56:34 <ais523> tusho: think about xkcd
18:56:40 <ais523> do you agree with their URL scheme?
18:56:45 <ais523> it has numbered versions
18:56:49 <ais523> also text versions IIRC
18:56:49 <tusho> yes, because the comic number is exposed via the interface
18:56:52 <tusho> because it makes sense
18:56:55 <ais523> but the numbered versions are a lot more convenient
18:57:01 <ais523> tusho: yes, why do the comic numbers make sense?
18:57:09 <tusho> because they chose to expose them
18:57:13 <ais523> tusho: so why don't blogs
18:57:20 <ais523> the real reason is, because the comics come in an order
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18:57:27 <ais523> and the numbers allow people to deduce the order
18:57:40 <ais523> and maybe they should expose numbers too
18:57:43 <tusho> I explicitly opted out of this discussion, I merely offered one sentence.
18:57:45 <ais523> reading a blog in order is not too much to ask
18:57:56 <tusho> If you'll violate that opt-out, then I'll opt out of the channel.
18:58:16 <ais523> this is an interesting new concept of opt-out
18:58:34 <tusho> do I smell sarcasm?
18:58:44 <ais523> s/$/.~/ if you really care
19:01:05 <ais523> psygnisfive: I'm impressed, you had a chilling effect on a conversation and actually meant to have a chilling effect on the conversation, normally they don't go together in IRC
19:01:43 <psygnisfive> so i dont know what oklopol is smoking but with two reaction equations, they werent both supposed to be active
19:01:57 <psygnisfive> but he never really paid attention to anything i said anyway
19:02:19 <ais523> psygnisfive: ah, you're augur
19:02:28 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur.
19:02:36 <ais523> I think I knew you by the psygnisfive nick first
19:02:48 <ais523> and then spent a while wondering who augur was
19:03:13 <ais523> anyway, having both active is an interesting idea, and I think there should be some way to do it
19:03:27 <ais523> but quite probably not with simple syntax
19:03:45 <augur> but there should also be a way to invalidate reactions
19:04:01 <augur> i think simultaneous activity should be special syntax, defined as a single reaction
19:04:17 <augur> something like, maybe, x $ y -> z
19:04:23 <augur> or something like that
19:04:23 <ais523> or alternate activity?
19:04:30 <ais523> i.e. whenever x or y reacts, send its value to z
19:04:36 <augur> alternate activity?
19:04:52 <ais523> well, "when x reacts, x -> z, and when y reacts, y -> z"
19:04:54 <augur> thats simultaneously active reactions...
19:04:54 <ais523> that isn't simultaneous
19:05:03 <ais523> ah, I see what you mean
19:05:08 <augur> no, but both reactions _exist_ simultaneously
19:05:11 <ais523> simultaneously active is different from simultaneous
19:05:17 <augur> whatd you think i meant before?
19:05:17 <ais523> so it's just a language thing
19:05:27 <ais523> augur: two things reacting at the same time
19:05:34 <ais523> i.e. act only when x and y both react at the same instant
19:05:42 <ais523> say because they were both triggered by the same thing
19:08:32 <augur> well, one thing i thing we need to be able to do is have just something that says when a variable changes
19:09:32 <augur> or something, where the value pushed into y is short lived, perhaps almost instantaneously gone
19:09:39 <augur> just a flag saying, x changed
19:09:50 <augur> this might be doable instead with just functions, i dont know.
19:10:08 <augur> x -> { something about y }
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19:13:29 <tusho> oh look, another programming distraction
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19:19:12 <augur> i got new glasses yesterday :)
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19:44:42 <augur> i wish there was a way to speed up my cognition, my perception of time, so the world seemed slower, without affecting my thought
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19:46:28 <tusho> Darn. If I get tusho.org I need usho.org
19:46:43 <tusho> And usho.org IS TAKEN!!!!
19:46:43 <ais523> tusho: that so isn't worth it
19:46:47 <Slereah_> Can't you give that money to orphans instead?
19:47:03 <tusho> x@tusho.org is okay I guess
19:47:17 <tusho> or id@tusho.org, but that's just geeky
19:47:24 <tusho> (which leads to ego@tusho.org, heh)
19:53:12 <tusho> I like ω@tusho.org better, though
19:53:21 <ais523> tusho: just have @tusho.org
19:53:27 <ais523> that confuses spambots like mad
19:53:29 <tusho> ais523: is that a zero-width joiner?
19:53:37 <ais523> no, it's a null string
19:53:41 <ais523> that's legal, apparently
19:53:47 <tusho> how many things accept it?
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20:06:17 <augur> what would you suggest for the representation of both reactions being active?
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20:21:55 <augur> thats bitwise logic :p
20:23:00 <augur> we need a neurohacking channel
20:23:57 <augur> ::hacks ur nurons::
20:34:07 <fizzie> My reading of RFC2822 would say that a simple @example.org address is not valid. The syntax says it's local-part "@" domain where local-part is either dot-atom, quoted-string or obs-local-part; few definitions deeper in they mostly start with 1*atext, meaning there must be at least one character. Although a zero-length quoted string should be valid, but ""@example.org is not as pretty.
20:34:47 <ais523> someone said @example.org worked, but didn't give evidence
20:34:53 <ais523> I wonder if most email transport agents support it?
20:35:51 <fizzie> Wwouldn't be surprised if it were so; but I'm sure there'd be at least some systems that would be confused.
20:36:00 <tusho> fizzie: I dislike you for your usage of facts and evidence.
20:36:31 <tusho> t@usho.org would be awesome, still
20:36:32 <ais523> wow, I've just found another thing to disagree with tusho on
20:36:40 <tusho> though if I was tasho, t@sho.org would be funner
20:36:44 <tusho> but sho.org will be even more taken
20:36:47 <tusho> ais523: oh come on, it was a joke
20:39:02 <ais523> oh, for all the IE-bashers out there: http://mosspod.com/ie7_and_gmail.html
20:39:26 <ais523> that's almost as bad as MSN Messenger blocking links to YouTube, or Hotmail blocking messages from Yahoo mail
20:47:46 <tusho> hmm, i should start using #pfft more
20:47:52 <tusho> I don't like clogging ##nomic and #esoteric with random crap
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22:35:07 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PlayGround
22:35:15 <Slereah> What, there's JumpRope but no tag?
22:39:07 <tusho> before becky there is tom
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22:55:45 <tusho> IHOPE IHOPE IS HERE
22:56:50 <tusho> I tend to dislike things that don't exist, though :(
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23:05:08 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme
23:05:15 <tusho> most uesless page imaginable
23:05:43 <Slereah> I'm sure we'll soon discover that it actually has BF's instruction set.
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23:57:41 <Slereah> Here's the sourcecode then :
23:58:26 * tusho is waiting for commands
23:59:04 <tusho> [output] Print this sentence.
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00:28:55 <ihope> I've decided I'm a nomic.
00:29:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Success).
00:29:08 <ihope> Until people start talking about something else, that is. :-P
00:29:51 <tusho> ihope: ##nomic, you. :P
00:48:28 <tusho> ihope is being a nomic in ##nomic :P
00:49:01 <ihope> Actually, that nomic is just pretending to be me. It's really an ordinary nomic of traditions.
01:02:18 <tusho> http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.2947 Wot
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01:28:04 <tusho> Slereah: http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.2947 analyze the stupidness lpz
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01:44:49 <ihope> I don't know what Herbrand is. Therefore, the proof is correct.
01:45:20 <ihope> I'd rather prove that ZFC being consistent implies that ZFC is consistent with ZFC's being consistent, and making that a paradox somehow.
01:47:29 <ihope> I guess that means that from ZFC plus "ZFC is consistent", you can prove that ZFC plus "ZFC is consistent" is consistent, which, by Goedel's Whatever, implies that ZFC plus "ZFC is consistent" is inconsistent, which somehow means that ZFC is inconsistent.
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02:09:11 <Slereah_> Herbrand is the first guy to prove arithmetic inconsistent.
02:10:05 <Slereah_> That article uses way too much abreviations.
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18:18:19 * ihope paints the word "surreal" on RodgerTheGreat's forehead
18:21:02 <ihope> Yay, I'm standard!
18:31:10 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: I wanna play Rodgeria.
18:32:41 <RodgerTheGreat> You find yourself in a small, windowless room with surfaces roughly hewn from stone. There is a piece of chalk here.
18:35:09 <tusho> p.s. #rodgeria, don't wanna spam #esoteric
18:50:12 -!- jix has joined.
18:52:28 <tusho> Someone get in #rodgeria and help me solve this thing. :P
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19:17:46 <augur> It's pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
19:18:00 <augur> Or, in a more funny version
19:18:09 <augur> It's Pitch Black. You are likely to be eaten by Riddick.
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20:06:33 <Slereah_> Is there a "shame" tag on the esowiki?
20:06:53 <ihope> Category:Shame, I guess.
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20:50:52 <RodgerTheGreat> "It is pitch white. You are unlikely to be eaten by a grue"
20:51:41 <oerjan> otoh yetis and polar bears may be quite likely
20:51:45 <ihope> It's pitch-that's-been-out-in-the-sun-for-decades white.
20:52:51 <ihope> It's pitch. You are likely.
20:52:56 <tusho> @remember <oerjan> otoh yetis and polar bears may be quite likely <oerjan> and evil yaks
20:53:01 <tusho> WE NEED BOTTE IN HERE.
20:53:13 <oerjan> and not to forget killer penguins
20:53:25 <ihope> Clearly, we need a Python nomic bot.
20:54:17 <oerjan> oh and that should remind us of Peruvian mountain anakondas
20:55:01 <tusho> I might make a PerlIRCNomic
20:55:26 <tusho> the program given is run with -n or whatever with the nomic source as a program
20:55:53 <tusho> @propose s/my @players = (/$0"tusho",/;
21:25:16 <tusho> Say. What kind of metadata does a wiki page need, anyway?
21:25:20 <tusho> I can't think of anything sans permissions.
21:25:39 <Slereah_> I give you permission to think.
21:27:51 * SimonRC finishes reading Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom. http://craphound.com/down/download.php
21:28:12 <SimonRC> tusho: how about a talk page?
21:28:20 <tusho> SimonRC: that's not part of the actual wiki page
21:28:28 <tusho> (history is handled by git, talk pages are just page/talk)
21:28:51 <tusho> I dunno how I'll handle foo and foo/bar, though.
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21:29:00 <tusho> I mean, I could do foo/.index and foo/bar for that.
21:29:02 <SimonRC> wait, you're writing a wiki?
21:29:05 <tusho> But that kinda sucks if you just have a page with no subpages.
21:29:10 <tusho> SimonRC: Yes. That uses git.
21:29:19 <tusho> Very tiny. Minimal. (But nicer than git-wiki.)
21:29:39 <SimonRC> are you doing this for the XP?
21:29:49 <tusho> SimonRC: for the xp?
21:30:11 <SimonRC> I mean, for the practice and skills you'll gain from it
21:30:20 <tusho> I need a nice wiki that isn't a huge memory & bloat hog like mediawiki
21:30:23 <tusho> but still supports a nice set of featurse
21:31:12 <SimonRC> and none of the 500 existing wikis give you that?
21:31:36 <tusho> SimonRC: most of them suck.
21:31:50 <tusho> git-wiki is a step in the right direction but not enough
21:32:04 <tusho> git does like 90% of the work for me anyway
21:32:33 <SimonRC> ah, so you are going to be more extreme in some combination of attributes than anything already existant
21:32:45 <tusho> Yeah - like 'not sucking' ;)
21:33:03 <SimonRC> you had me worried for a moment; I though you were going to make a generic wiki
21:33:14 <tusho> no, not many wikis use git
21:33:19 <tusho> they all hack up their own RCS, which sucks
21:33:34 <tusho> the only one that does that I've found is hopelessly minimal
21:33:41 <tusho> and doesn't really work well for me
21:33:55 <SimonRC> that reminds me: I managed to break my company's primary SVN repos a few days back.
21:34:10 <SimonRC> evidently it didn't like my 3300-file commit
21:35:01 <SimonRC> 1650 auto-generated regression test cases: each an input and an output
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22:17:07 * SimonRC stops surfing and goes to get food
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23:17:36 <Slereah_> Even what's only theorically food?
23:17:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I have found the ultimate gift! http://pinkertonfx.com/hamster.htm (NSFW? Maybe?)
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23:18:39 <Slereah_> http://www.giantmicrobes.com/ <- much bettar
23:18:52 <Slereah_> The gift that keeps on giving.
23:19:26 <olsner> they don't seem to have aids though
23:20:02 <Slereah_> http://www.giantmicrobes.com/us/products/hiv.html
23:22:28 <Slereah_> But HIV doesn't have the same ring to it.
23:22:34 <Slereah_> http://www.giantmicrobes.com/us/products/blackdeath.html
23:22:39 <Slereah_> Enough fuzz makes anything adorable.
23:23:00 <RodgerTheGreat> they have my favorite bacteriophage: http://www.giantmicrobes.com/us/products/T4.html
23:26:20 <Slereah_> http://www.giantmicrobes.com/us/products/heartworm.html
23:26:53 <Slereah_> Hearts make anything adorable.
23:29:01 <Slereah_> Plus, I feel so safe with it when energy balls are shot at me
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23:29:51 <Slereah_> Tragedy struck http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers3/Mah%20cube.jpg
23:34:42 <Slereah_> I usually play the Valve games in English
23:34:53 <Slereah_> But the names remain in the language of the CD.
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23:53:03 <tusho> i am going to remove all links to EsCo from the wiki
23:53:14 <tusho> i should hope not; it's awful and it's spam
23:59:55 <Slereah_> You should put the EsCo link on the esme page
00:03:39 <Slereah_> But, what will the esco dude say! :o
00:16:36 <tusho> Slereah_: 'fuck you'
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02:53:27 <Slereah> According to the user list
02:53:35 <Slereah> There's 299 dudes on the esowiki :o
02:53:44 <Slereah> We should party for mister 300.
02:56:14 <Slereah> Maybe I should make a phony account.
02:56:21 <Slereah> Something like user:Leonidas
03:16:35 <RodgerTheGreat> does somebody else want to be a text-based adventure game?
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04:10:09 <RodgerTheGreat> Slereah: only when the players fail utterly at a puzzle
04:11:16 <Slereah> What would be that adventure game?
04:11:27 <Slereah> Does it involve the president being captured by ninjas?
04:12:28 <RodgerTheGreat> the general way to invoke it is to ask an IRP interpreter to execute a statement like "Will you please act as the parser for a text-based adventure game?"
04:14:49 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, here we go- this is a partial transcript: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1214072201.html
04:16:45 <Slereah> I just scanned the text. Not one mention of cake!
04:16:54 <RodgerTheGreat> It's kinda like playing D&D except there's no dice or lameass combat systems
04:17:15 <RodgerTheGreat> Slereah: all the more reason to include cake when you act as an interpreter
04:22:23 <Slereah> Well, I already did cake adventures.
04:23:18 <RodgerTheGreat> my next game apparently has to be called "RODGERIA II, THE QUEST FOR THE MYSTERIOUS PINEAPPLE OF THE DEEP"
04:24:07 <Slereah> Is it in the realm of my imagination?
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04:27:43 <calamari> installing Ubuntu on my dad's new box, trying to get rid of compiz
04:28:29 <RodgerTheGreat> and Slereah and I were discussing the newest fad in IRP- text-based adventure games
04:30:27 <calamari> one of the examples is even me.. lol
04:30:50 <RodgerTheGreat> essentially what we realized is that in IRP, it only takes a handful of commands to create a game, because IRP is one of the most powerful languages for procedural content generation in existence
04:30:56 <Slereah> But me, I'm more into graphical IRP adventures
04:31:39 <Slereah> You -> o o <- Delicious cake
04:32:17 <RodgerTheGreat> in which case "DO NOT EAT THE FUCKING CHEESE IT'S A TRAP"
04:32:22 <Slereah> It's more of a cake challenge graphical adventure
04:33:10 <Slereah> It was just a demonstration
04:34:07 <calamari> Please put an @ shaped hat on my head
04:34:41 <Slereah> I used to do it all in colors
04:34:51 <Slereah> Then I learned that the channel was no colors
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04:35:16 <calamari> don't think I want to eat that
04:35:42 <Slereah> It's so delicious and moist!
04:37:02 <RodgerTheGreat> how long do you guys figure it'll remain in the web's collective consciousness?
04:37:40 <RodgerTheGreat> the internet as we know it is only really a couple years old
04:37:44 <Slereah> We're still not over Zerowing.
04:38:16 <Slereah> Were you aware that Mister T devoured my testicles, RodgerTheGreat?
04:38:31 <Slereah> No, Portal the household appliance.
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07:30:22 <Slereah> I wonder how many esolangs in the wiki are one shot occurences that will remain unused forever.
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11:12:40 <Slereah_> http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1214128825215.jpg
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15:50:57 <RodgerTheGreat> Slereah_: that's the beauty of a wiki. Pages take up a negligible amount of storage, so you can have a virtually infinite supply of such stubs and one-offs just sitting around on the off chance that they'll be needed or referred to
15:52:49 <AnMaster> anyone got a good idea for a simple esoteric language to implement (in C) that will give me a good reason to learn flex?
15:53:44 <RodgerTheGreat> well, most of my favorite languages are stack-based, and for those it's usually just as easy to write the parser/tokenizer by hand
15:54:18 <AnMaster> anyway I like to find some good reason to learn flex
15:54:29 <AnMaster> and the rest of the project should be rather simple
15:55:34 <AnMaster> and no, postscript is too complex to implement
15:56:03 <RodgerTheGreat> here's an online interpreter for one of my languages, if you have JRE installed: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CogEngine/Sprocket1/
15:56:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I meant languages in the family of postscript, not necessarily the language itself
15:56:48 <RodgerTheGreat> when you take away the graphics stuff, PS is basically just a really clean FORTH-like
15:57:01 <AnMaster> I do have JDK but not in the browser
15:57:12 <AnMaster> the plugin doesn't exist for x86_64
15:57:21 <RodgerTheGreat> well, the download link for the console version would work on your computer
16:00:01 <AnMaster> anyway, this doesn't give me a reason to learn flex really
16:00:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno, most esolangs tend to fall into either "trivial parsing" or "murderous parsing"
16:02:16 <AnMaster> and most non-esoteric tends to fall into "reasonable parsing" but "complex in other parts"
16:02:45 <RodgerTheGreat> you could implement a very selective subset of C or Java
16:03:16 <RodgerTheGreat> choose a single looping construct, remove unnecessary nasty things, etc
16:06:55 <RodgerTheGreat> depending on your choices it could become quite esoteric, but you would still learn to work with very practical ideas
16:09:50 <AnMaster> I refuse to compile to asm due to religious reasons (I believe in portability)
16:09:54 <RodgerTheGreat> might be easier to implement that way unless you're handy with ASM, in which case compilation could be a snap
16:10:26 <RodgerTheGreat> or you could compile to bytecode and have twice the fun creating the interpreter
16:11:16 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, even better- you could compile to a bytecode interpreter I invented, thus layering the esotericisim and making your job more challenging and interesting
16:15:05 <RodgerTheGreat> it's pretty fast, and I also have an assembler that targets it
16:15:20 <RodgerTheGreat> I was going to write a language that compiled for it, but I got distracted by other projects
16:16:33 <RodgerTheGreat> but I imagine this would be moderately easy to convert
16:16:45 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, also doesn't java have case?
16:16:58 <AnMaster> else if (instr == 10) {swap(0,x);}
16:16:59 <AnMaster> else if (instr == 11) {stak[sptr-x-soff] = a;}
16:16:59 <AnMaster> else if (instr == 12) {stak[sptr] = stak[sptr-x-soff];}
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16:17:23 <RodgerTheGreat> it does, but I don't like case statements. They don't actually compile to be faster and I think the syntax looks horrible
16:17:41 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, well I prefer them in C anyway
16:21:44 <RodgerTheGreat> but anyway, this is what a hello world would look like in assembly: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1214148012.html
16:23:47 <RodgerTheGreat> some instructions discard the top stack element, so I think I did that because I needed two copies
16:24:04 <oklopol> you just said that, but i forgot alreadcy
16:24:46 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, this one is much more interesting- fibonacci sequence!
16:28:44 <RodgerTheGreat> X is the instruction parameter, A is the topmost stack element
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16:35:11 <AnMaster> if (sptr >= STAK_MEMORY) {System.out.println("WARNING: Stack overflow!");halt = true;err = 4;}
16:35:21 <AnMaster> that looks 1) typoed 2) why not dynamic stack size?
16:35:39 <AnMaster> STAK_MEMORY should be STACK_MEMORY right?
16:35:48 <RodgerTheGreat> having a non-dynamic stack size can make it considerably faster
16:35:58 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, well for C it would be same speed
16:36:01 <RodgerTheGreat> and it's STAK_MEMORY- it's uniform throughout my source
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16:36:05 <AnMaster> except you need to malloc once
16:36:40 <AnMaster> except if it is actually growing (realloc()) it would have same speed
16:36:52 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, can't see how dynamic allocation is a problem?
16:37:30 <RodgerTheGreat> you can do it trivially by replacing the contents of that error message with code to resize and copy the array- that isn't the point
16:38:00 <AnMaster> how is "slight slowdown at one point" worse than "error out on complex program"?
16:39:02 <RodgerTheGreat> it was originally designed to create a microcontroller-like environment- It has a fixed memory size because I wanted it to be like a physical machine
16:39:41 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, memory hotplug ;P
16:39:44 <RodgerTheGreat> and it'll run quite fast if you make program and memory sizes fit nicely in cache blocks
16:40:17 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, what about SMP?
16:41:13 * AnMaster wonders if he maybe should create a micro-computer simulator himself
16:41:33 <AnMaster> just need to write an assembler for it
16:41:34 <RodgerTheGreat> AnMaster: coding it's easy, the hard part is coming up with a good instruction set
16:41:55 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, yep, well I do know PIC12F629 asm
16:42:14 <AnMaster> so my knowledge of it is rusty
16:42:17 <RodgerTheGreat> if you make an assembly language that's anything remotely like I use you could modify my assembler pretty easily, but it's in Java
16:42:38 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, shouldn't be too hard to rewrite in C
16:42:44 <AnMaster> anyway I wouldn't make mine stack based
16:42:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I know a little 6502, and I'm slowly getting better at it
16:43:47 <AnMaster> (also it would have maybe 12 or so registers
16:44:06 <RodgerTheGreat> and it needs a file like this for the language definitions: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1214149362.html
16:44:19 <AnMaster> <RodgerTheGreat> http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1214149325.html <-- that should give me a reason to learn flex or yacc
16:44:31 <RodgerTheGreat> the MOS technologies 6502 was one of the most important 8-bit processors in microcomputer history
16:45:05 <AnMaster> how many registers do MIPS have RodgerTheGreat ?
16:45:31 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, why a reserved 0? that seems pointless
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16:45:58 <AnMaster> anyway I don't mean stuff like program counter or such, just general purpose registers
16:46:40 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, so 31 usable general purpose registers?
16:46:56 <RodgerTheGreat> some have reserved meanings, but they're just convention
16:47:28 <AnMaster> x86_64 is twice as much as x86 anyway
16:47:30 <RodgerTheGreat> and a handful do special things on certain instructions, like $rt
16:48:06 <tusho> 23:33:14 <Slereah> (diff) (hist) . . Esme?; 02:54 . . (0) . . Dagoth Ur, Mad God (Talk | contribs) (Undo revision 11873 by Special:Contributions/91.105.124.212 (User talk:91.105.124.212); I prefer "WikiPedia".)
16:48:13 <tusho> "I PREFER INCORRECTNESS"
16:48:31 <tusho> I like to spell city as siti, and if you dare change it, I WILL PREFER IT
16:48:42 <tusho> Especially if it's on my shitty, unspecified esolang!
16:48:57 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, 32 registers, one constant zero, one for return addresses, and one that's bad juju to touch because it's reserved for temporary use by the assembler, so you have 29 general purpose registers
16:49:17 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, ok. and on x86?
16:49:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I think x86 only has one or two "general purpose" registers
16:50:12 <AnMaster> x86_64 got twice as many as x86 anyway
16:50:32 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, yes but you can use them for other stuff "while no one is looking"
16:50:57 <RodgerTheGreat> and the instruction can't uniformly perform operations on all of them equally- that's what I mean when I say "general purpose"
16:51:37 <tusho> 08:09:50 <AnMaster> I refuse to compile to asm due to religious reasons (I believe in portability)
16:51:42 <tusho> AnMaster's religion is crazy.
16:51:47 <tusho> It dictates how you can compile things on a computer.
16:52:04 <tusho> I bet it's the PortabilityOnCompilersigion.
16:52:08 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: I swear to god you're like a clone of pikhq from two years ago
16:52:18 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, how was pikhq back then?
16:52:37 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: I was joking, actually
16:52:50 <AnMaster> <RodgerTheGreat> a douche about pretty much everything
16:53:41 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, saw that mips emulator someone in here is working on, don't remember url
16:53:59 <tusho> i need to work some more on that
16:54:08 <tusho> codu.org/jsmips/sh.html for what it's worth
16:54:15 <tusho> dunno if he added my better keyboard code to that example yet
16:54:23 <AnMaster> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/dc.html
16:54:33 <tusho> anyway, if I appear to be a douche about everything that's probably because your sarcasm detector is broken
16:54:41 <tusho> (or it's defaulting to 'serious, then maybe sarcasm' instead of the other way around)
16:55:27 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: where's that shirt you made captioned 'people from the internet'?
16:55:28 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, what is the use of a NOP instruction?
16:55:30 <tusho> pretty appropriate
16:55:37 <tusho> AnMaster: wasting cycles
16:55:45 <tusho> and NOPing out license key checks
16:55:58 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, I mean in your asm
16:56:36 <AnMaster> what is the bit width of your vm?
16:56:48 <RodgerTheGreat> anything that's data is stored as a NOP instruction so that the VM won't barf if someone forgets to terminate with a HLT
16:57:31 <AnMaster> well what about OOP asm? I got no idea how it would look
16:58:27 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, well anyway I mean for data
16:58:28 <RodgerTheGreat> actually, that's one of the reasons my ASM is stack-based
16:58:40 <tusho> functional asm .. i think that's called lambda calculus
16:58:41 <RodgerTheGreat> implementing function calls and returns is very clean and straightforward
16:58:57 <tusho> OOP asm sounds fun, though
16:59:00 <tusho> think I'll write a vm and try that
16:59:10 <AnMaster> tusho, well I got no idea what OOP asm would look like
16:59:22 <tusho> AnMaster: i dunno, that's why I'm interested
16:59:29 <tusho> i'll hack up an example
16:59:30 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, so program memory is separate from data memory?
16:59:31 <tusho> of what I think it'll look like
16:59:36 <AnMaster> tusho, yes would love to see it
17:00:05 <RodgerTheGreat> it was originally harvard architecture, but it mutated into a mix of harvard and von neumann
17:00:17 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, well I would prefer one shared memory bank
17:00:24 <tusho> neko is kinda crap
17:00:28 <RodgerTheGreat> suffice to say that you can self-modify but you cannot access instruction fields
17:00:48 <tusho> Judofyr: it's just not that interesting
17:00:52 <tusho> also the asm is too high level
17:01:14 <AnMaster> well my asm would have a NX bit
17:01:24 <Judofyr> haXe is pretty cool (IMO) :P
17:01:39 <AnMaster> Judofyr, what about LLVM then?
17:01:49 <AnMaster> I wanted to try LLVM for a long time
17:02:01 <AnMaster> I haven't yet got around to it
17:02:03 <Judofyr> I'm way to high level for it :/
17:02:35 <AnMaster> if I made an asm I know what I will name it:
17:02:58 <tusho> AnMaster: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1214150491.html
17:03:01 <tusho> erally abstract, of course
17:03:05 <tusho> but I guess it'd look kinda similar
17:03:15 <tusho> CALLMETH is basically CALL, except it takes an instance on the top of the stack
17:03:24 <tusho> i guess you'd have to push 0
17:03:28 <tusho> to say you're giving it 0 arguments
17:03:37 <AnMaster> yeah virtual functions and so on
17:03:44 <RodgerTheGreat> if you implement OO-ASM, there are good odds that it'll look amusingly similar to JVM bytecode
17:04:15 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: yeah, probably.
17:04:25 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, what does JAL do exactly
17:04:27 <tusho> i mean, JVM IS oop asm, really :-P
17:04:31 <AnMaster> what do you mean with "and link"
17:04:35 <tusho> JVM bytecode has classes in a seperate thingy
17:04:38 <tusho> instead of 'erasing' them
17:04:39 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, I don't know MIPS
17:04:43 <RodgerTheGreat> you jump to a location and store the return address in a var
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17:05:26 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, you mean: call
17:05:41 <RodgerTheGreat> it's like GOSUB with a one-level stack, and it's your responsibility to maintain the chain of return addresses as necessary
17:05:52 <RodgerTheGreat> AnMaster: depending on your BASIC interpreter, yes. :)
17:06:00 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, I never did basic
17:06:07 <AnMaster> I did pascal when I was young instead
17:06:25 <Judofyr> is there a way to use LLVM without touching C?
17:06:43 <tusho> Judofyr: yes, use the llvm asm...
17:07:03 <AnMaster> well if you can call library functions I guess, so you could do it from C# with some Platform invoke
17:07:46 <tusho> Judofyr: LLVM asm is lower level than c
17:07:48 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, in your asm definition what does the true and false mean?
17:07:48 <tusho> you'll have to understand c
17:08:07 <Judofyr> better buy some books then...
17:08:54 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, and: JST 03 true// jump to stack <-- executing code on stack!?
17:08:54 <tusho> Judofyr: get K&R second edition if you wanna learn c
17:08:54 <tusho> it's concise as hell and great
17:09:04 <RodgerTheGreat> AnMaster: 1 and 0 implicitly, but I don't have any instructions that explicitly deal with "true or false"
17:09:26 <AnMaster> ah jump to value stored on stack?
17:09:55 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, anyway the true and false in that definition file, sure 1 and 0, but what do they mean?
17:10:21 <Judofyr> right now, I rather buy The Little Schemer
17:11:44 <RodgerTheGreat> although you could overlap it with any instruction that has 0 as a parameter or doesn't use it's parameter
17:11:59 <RodgerTheGreat> there are some really nifty things you can do to optimize for space in this language
17:12:36 <AnMaster> public boolean oparam[];// does this command take parameters?
17:12:48 <AnMaster> so that false means "takes no parameters"
17:13:07 <tusho> AnMaster: he thought you meant
17:13:11 <tusho> 'what do true and false actually MEAN'
17:13:19 <tusho> 'in this case, what does the argument of true/false mean to the opcode?'
17:13:34 <RodgerTheGreat> if you'd said you were talking about the language definition file I could've answered easily
17:13:46 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, I did copy and paste from that file
17:13:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, anyway the true and false in that definition file, sure 1 and 0, but what do they mean?
17:14:28 * AnMaster is writing up some ideas for his asm
17:15:48 <RodgerTheGreat> the active stack/ passive stack concept is one of my favorite aspects of my ASM- it provides a means to allow expressions in RPN pretty raw translation into ASM while avoiding accidental stack-smashing
17:16:30 <RodgerTheGreat> syscalls are a good way to define all your I/O, because in a real assembly language it wouldn't make sense to have those operations be part of the instruction set
17:19:07 <tusho> *i'm gonna let the OS provide syscall monikers
17:19:13 <tusho> so you can do 'SYSCALL putchar'
17:19:28 <tusho> it'd make them sweeter
17:19:37 <tusho> oh, and mine will be stack based
17:19:43 <tusho> and have a kind of fuzzy everything-is-everywhere stack
17:19:48 <RodgerTheGreat> so the ASM would just have some kind of hooking mechanism?
17:19:49 <tusho> well, two stacks of course
17:19:57 <tusho> or i could just divide a stack in two...
17:20:03 <tusho> that'd be closer to the machine
17:20:14 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: that's generally how it works- start at both ends and grow towards the center
17:20:14 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: pretty much, you'd provide implementations of syscalls and names for them
17:20:17 <tusho> like built-in functions, really
17:20:25 <tusho> i could make them functions but that'd be bad for performance
17:20:31 <tusho> so no call stack will be involved
17:20:46 <tusho> (i.e. they'll be goto'd and given an address to goto back, and if they want a stack they'd better handle it themselves)
17:24:44 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: here's that image you wanted, btw: http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1203125875-tetsuoooo.png
17:25:11 <tusho> yes, pretend I pasted that link ages ago :-P
17:35:14 * tusho writes some asm and then makes it work
17:35:17 <tusho> best way to develop software ever
17:37:33 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: think I should have less-than-or-equal-to?
17:37:39 <tusho> it's common enough for another instruction, i'd say
17:37:44 <tusho> instead of manually or'ing it
17:45:32 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, hm I got something written up here. not complete: http://rafb.net/p/dovpGA97.html
17:46:01 <AnMaster> very early draft of instruction set
17:48:12 * AnMaster take the name LDC for his load constant instruction
17:55:11 <tusho> AnMaster: I AM SUING YOU FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
17:55:39 <AnMaster> mine will have a syntax that is a mix of AT&T and Intel
17:55:49 <AnMaster> just to make *everyone* get a headache!
17:56:09 <tusho> now I want to make you feel pain
17:56:12 <tusho> that was not a clever thing to say ;)
17:56:21 <tusho> are you going to swap them each instruction or something
17:56:27 <tusho> they're bad enough seperately as it is
17:57:06 <AnMaster> I mean some parts with be done as in gas (like the prefix for register names), while other will be done as in intel (not yet decided)
18:04:29 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/pFtjP117.html
18:30:27 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, tusho: http://rafb.net/p/MYYzRr37.html
18:30:38 <tusho> AnMaster: it looks good
18:30:42 <tusho> ID is a bit odd though
18:30:48 <tusho> don't think it's needed
18:31:00 <tusho> AnMaster: also, you'll wanna trim that down a bit
18:31:06 <AnMaster> future compatibility (why do I bother)
18:31:09 <tusho> it's verging into CISC far too much ;)
18:31:18 <tusho> also, i have never seen a future compatible cpu arch
18:31:20 <AnMaster> tusho, hm I did leave out FTAN as it can be done with FSIN and FCOS
18:31:30 <tusho> AnMaster: there are RISCs with 32 instructions
18:31:49 <tusho> yeah, just saying that you might wanna minimalise ;)
18:31:56 <tusho> e.g. NEG is pretty pointless
18:31:58 <tusho> you can just do 0 -
18:32:09 <AnMaster> tusho, hm true, maybe for speed reasons?
18:32:24 <tusho> AnMaster: can't think why it'd be much faster
18:32:37 <tusho> AnMaster: can't you do it with a XOR
18:32:52 <AnMaster> well two's complement is what I plan for
18:33:01 <tusho> AnMaster: two's complement:
18:33:02 <AnMaster> as to begin with I will write interpreter in C
18:33:17 <tusho> former is likely quicker
18:33:23 <AnMaster> I do lack bitwise NOT it seems
18:33:34 <tusho> yeah, replace neg with BNT
18:33:42 <tusho> then {BNT,INC} is NEG
18:33:46 <tusho> and a darn fast neg at that
18:34:34 <tusho> AnMaster: i'd keep to 3-char mnemonics
18:34:40 <AnMaster> tusho, I can't do that everywhere
18:34:42 <tusho> I'd personally call it NOT, boolean not is lame
18:35:14 <tusho> AnMaster: also, boolean not is:
18:35:20 <AnMaster> all of NOT/XOR/OR/AND should be bitwise
18:35:43 <tusho> boolean versions can be built trivially from it
18:35:51 <AnMaster> OMG HOW DO I MAKE THE "OR" instruction 3 chars long?!
18:36:25 <tusho> AnMaster: suggestion - FTRUNC -> FTNC
18:36:51 <AnMaster> what about the other long ones?
18:36:59 <tusho> AnMaster: FFLOOR -> FFLR, probably
18:37:18 <tusho> it's okay as it is
18:37:44 <tusho> just leave PUSH as it is :-P
18:37:46 <tusho> really, just leave em as is
18:37:54 <tusho> PSH isn't mnemonic
18:38:05 <tusho> AnMaster: okay, okay, fine, I was wrong when I said 3 chars
18:38:07 <tusho> just leave it as it is :-P
18:38:11 <tusho> anyway PUSH is better because it's a real word
18:38:20 <tusho> PSH could be Poppy Shaver Hair
18:38:25 <AnMaster> what about: SUB -> SUBSTRACT then?
18:38:32 <tusho> because SUB is widely understood :-P
18:38:54 <tusho> perl uses 'sub' for functions
18:39:15 <tusho> AnMaster: you can do crazy things with perl function prototypes:
18:39:21 <tusho> sub L(\&) { shift }
18:39:27 <AnMaster> well you can do crazy things in perl I know...
18:39:29 <tusho> L { $_[0] + $_[1] } <-- a closure lambda thingy
18:39:38 <tusho> AnMaster: explanation - the prototypes can change how the arguments are influenced,
18:39:43 <tusho> perl doesn't require parens around function calls,
18:39:48 <tusho> and \X means 'reference to something of X'
18:39:53 <tusho> e.g. \@ is a listref
18:40:00 <tusho> and, & means 'subroutine'
18:40:06 <AnMaster> well I know perl is mad and I don't know perl apart from a very basic level
18:40:11 <tusho> so: sub L(\&) is saying that the argument is a subroutine reference
18:40:18 <tusho> thus, if we pass in a block of code, it gets returned as a reference
18:40:22 <tusho> and we have a function creator
18:40:29 <tusho> sub sub(\&) { shift }
18:40:39 <tusho> (though you couldn't do that, obviously, because sub is a keyword)
18:40:46 <AnMaster> was just about to ask about that
18:40:47 <tusho> (and even if you did the resulting 'sub' wouldn't be able to do the prototypes itself, ironically)
18:41:21 <tusho> AnMaster: well, we want L to return the lambda it gets
18:41:29 <tusho> functions arguments are put in the array @_
18:41:35 <tusho> 'shift' shifts a value of the top of an array
18:41:38 <tusho> if no array is given, it assumes @_
18:41:43 <tusho> so for one param functions, you do:
18:41:48 <AnMaster> however no "return" statement?
18:41:53 <tusho> my ($foo, $bar, $baz) = @_;
18:42:02 <tusho> AnMaster: the last expression is implicitly returned... kinda like a functional language
18:42:09 <tusho> it's crazy how perl has convenient closures and all that
18:42:12 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/sAtIyw42.html
18:42:22 <tusho> AnMaster: RDB seems a bit silly
18:42:24 <tusho> does any arch do it like that?
18:42:33 <tusho> if you have 'double' and 'float'
18:42:34 <tusho> in the same program
18:42:39 <tusho> it'll be flipping each time you use them'
18:42:51 <AnMaster> tusho, well you got a better idea
18:42:51 <tusho> also, R8/16/64 is a bit silly
18:42:56 <tusho> machines only ever have N-bit
18:43:11 <tusho> AnMaster: amd64 is crazy, though
18:43:17 <tusho> because it has to deal with backwards compat to an insane degree
18:43:32 <AnMaster> but 64-bit always is just a waste!
18:43:40 <tusho> AnMaster: make it 32-bit then
18:43:40 <AnMaster> so what do you suggest? different ADD instructions?
18:43:42 <tusho> it's never hurt anyone ;)
18:43:49 <AnMaster> tusho, I want the *ability* to use 64-bit
18:44:01 <tusho> AnMaster: then you'll be stuck with bloat or always using 64 bit..
18:44:05 <tusho> i'd just use 32-bit
18:44:11 <tusho> it'll be fine for this :-P
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18:44:34 <tusho> AnMaster: well exactly
18:44:40 <tusho> you could support 349856794573489573495-bit all the time
18:44:47 <tusho> but 32-bit is probably best for this
18:44:55 <tusho> you can do just about anything, and it's simple enough to code with neatly manually in
18:44:58 <AnMaster> 349856794573489573495 == how many GB?
18:45:38 <tusho> 'You only have Some GB left of your A Lot GB hard-drive! Please delete some files.'
18:45:52 <AnMaster> heh? something actually said that?
18:46:23 <AnMaster> 349856794573489573495 / 8 = 43732099321686196686 bytes
18:46:48 <RodgerTheGreat> make these suckers 8-bit- it'd be way more fun. Anybody can do 32 bit
18:46:58 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: AnMaster would never sacrifice that much
18:47:04 <AnMaster> (why is bc rounding like that!)
18:48:00 <tusho> 1 shitlytes = 43732099321686196686 bytes
18:48:18 <AnMaster> shitbytes not shitlytes right?
18:48:26 <tusho> AnMaster: i morphed shitload into shitlytes
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18:49:26 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I can se a reason for 128-bit computers
18:49:32 <AnMaster> makes it simpler to work with ipv6
18:50:04 <AnMaster> a 32-bit computer can just do one fourth of an ipv6 url in a register
18:50:40 <tusho> AnMaster: base 256 computer!
18:50:55 <tusho> AnMaster: strings are trivial
18:51:11 <tusho> unicode is for hippies
18:51:20 <tusho> i see no reason to accomadate THOSE types.
18:51:25 <AnMaster> ööööööööööööååååååååååääääääääääääääää
18:51:32 <tusho> AnMaster: DIRTY FORNER
18:51:50 <AnMaster> tusho, Så du pratar bara engelska?
18:52:13 <tusho> shush, I was being sarcastic
18:52:25 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: he's still a DIRTY FORNER.
18:52:33 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, I sent them as utf8
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18:52:47 <tusho> oh, and I know a little bit of lojban, thank YOU :P
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18:53:29 <tusho> AnMaster: Lojban can't pronounce my name properly. :-P
18:53:35 <tusho> .Eli,at.xrd. approximates it
18:53:48 <tusho> AnMaster: dude, we're talking about lojban the human language here
18:53:48 <AnMaster> tusho, this is a constructed language?
18:54:04 <tusho> the most popular geeky one nowadays
18:54:10 <tusho> (i.e. apart from esparanto & etc)
18:54:37 <AnMaster> btw I think my asm shall have 128 general purpose registers (+ some other like program counter and such)
18:54:49 <tusho> 128?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?
18:54:55 <tusho> you'll never be able to keep track of that
18:55:12 <tusho> AnMaster: ppc is pretty crazy as is
18:55:19 <tusho> 10 is about as much as you could keep in your head, i imagine
18:55:25 <tusho> as long as you give them decent names
18:55:26 <AnMaster> maybe I'll do like sparc then?
18:55:33 <AnMaster> have a moving register window?
18:55:45 <tusho> i'd just use 10 registers with nice names
18:55:46 <tusho> it's a nice number
18:56:06 <AnMaster> um. I'd use %r1, %r2 and so on
18:56:17 <tusho> yeah, that's not good ;)
18:56:23 <tusho> 10 _well-named_ ones will make programming abreeze
18:56:38 <tusho> AnMaster: 'oh, I need to use %r4 to %r7 the %r3'
18:56:52 <tusho> and I assume you were joking there
18:57:15 <AnMaster> but a lot of registers are good
18:57:26 <tusho> not if you wanna code in it
18:57:27 <AnMaster> maybe I'll write a compiler to this bytecode later
18:57:37 <AnMaster> tusho, why would I need to use them all?
18:57:47 <tusho> but 10 should be _enough_
18:57:55 <AnMaster> tusho, yet x86 is register starved
18:58:04 <AnMaster> amd64 got 16 general purpose registers iirc
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18:58:26 <AnMaster> tusho, how would you name your registers?
18:58:32 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: Have you ever done any serious coding in a RISC assembly language?
18:58:41 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: define serious
18:58:54 <tusho> anyway AnMaster's instruction set is pretty big
18:59:10 <RodgerTheGreat> I coded reversi in MIPS- something like 3000 lines of assembly- and I needed every register I had.
18:59:14 <AnMaster> tusho, remove the optional floating point co-processor and it is small!
18:59:27 <RodgerTheGreat> I could've done it with about 3, but it would suck, and it would've been easier with more
18:59:28 <tusho> AnMaster: but read his instruction set
18:59:32 <tusho> 10 should be enough
19:00:00 <AnMaster> anyway have you see the amd64 instruction set?
19:00:22 <tusho> yes, well it's ReallyCISC
19:00:30 <tusho> insanely big instruction set computer
19:00:43 <RodgerTheGreat> AnMaster: you're missing some important stuff and I think the floating-point stuff is a waste, especially this early in the design phase
19:01:02 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, well the floating point co-processor is sold separately!
19:01:11 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, and what important things?
19:01:20 <AnMaster> setting stack base? that will be the st0 register
19:01:28 <AnMaster> and stack top will be another register
19:02:00 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, and yes I need something for heap
19:02:04 <RodgerTheGreat> it's pretty amusing that you have a language wherein the only real storage you have access to is the stack and you can't roll, swap or easily duplicate stack entries
19:02:31 <RodgerTheGreat> what is with you people and heaps? you shouldn't implement heaps at the CPU level
19:02:39 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: it's pretty amusing that you have a language wherein the only real storage you have access to is the stack and you can't roll, swap or easily duplicate stack entries
19:03:03 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: i don't know why you're getting so heated about it
19:03:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not flaming, I'm saying he's growing it in the wrong directions
19:03:31 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, so you mean I should simulate a MMU?!
19:03:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm saying you should support atomic operations like storing to and loading from an arbitrary memory location
19:04:04 * AnMaster ponders adding a MALLOC instruction just to irritate, (just kidding)
19:05:14 <RodgerTheGreat> and as I said, your stack is crippled in usefulness because you can only touch the top element
19:05:23 <AnMaster> ; from a register or from memory
19:05:36 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, and no you can touch below
19:06:10 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, because you can get stack base from the "special purpose" register st0 or something like that, and stack top from st1
19:07:41 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a difference between "is possible" and "is practical"- it would take 4 or 5 instructions to recall an arbitrary depth from your stack the way the instruction set works now
19:07:48 <AnMaster> MOVRR ; Copy one value from a register to another.
19:07:48 <AnMaster> MOVMR ; Copy one value from the main memory to a register.
19:07:48 <AnMaster> MOVRM ; Copy one value from a register to the main memory.
19:07:48 <AnMaster> MOVMM ; Copy one value within the main memory.
19:08:11 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, and well I will have 128 general purpose registers. ;P
19:09:00 <RodgerTheGreat> it also doesn't make a lot of sense to be able to move values directly between memory locations- that would be an insanely slow operation in real life and it defeats the purpose of having registers in the first place
19:09:38 <AnMaster> ok, just to irritate you all I will add a compare-and-exchange atomic instruction
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19:09:44 <AnMaster> not that I will add SMP for quite a while
19:10:34 <AnMaster> also MOV itself could be asm side, it will select what MOV variable is the correct one to use
19:11:36 <RodgerTheGreat> defining pseudo-ops is another step entirely from designing the assembly language
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19:12:16 <AnMaster> ; * To get double precision change the prefix F to FD.
19:12:35 <AnMaster> change the instruction name for double
19:12:41 <tusho> AnMaster: probably, yes
19:12:47 <tusho> think of how many bits you need to use for an instruction
19:13:15 <tusho> AnMaster: you could do something like
19:13:36 <AnMaster> tusho, yes? food is ready. will read when I get back in a few minutes
19:32:06 <AnMaster> anyway I will add swap/dup for stack
19:32:44 <tusho> AnMaster: also why not 'dip'
19:32:47 <tusho> you can do it non-functionally:
19:32:54 <tusho> dip = take the top element off the stack
19:32:57 <tusho> undip = put it back
19:33:07 <tusho> to remove the second element on the stack:
19:33:09 <AnMaster> that's push and pop aren't they?
19:33:15 <tusho> AnMaster: well, kinda
19:33:20 <tusho> AnMaster: you can nest
19:33:28 <tusho> dip dip pop undip pop undip
19:33:29 <AnMaster> I was just going to mention another idea: reverse instruction pointer direction
19:33:32 <tusho> remove second and third elements of the stack
19:34:07 <tusho> AnMaster: dip dip pop undip pop undip
19:34:08 <tusho> see how that works?
19:34:19 <tusho> you can build a LOT of stack operations on top of dip/undip
19:36:02 <tusho> AnMaster: i like dip/undip, a lot
19:36:09 <AnMaster> tusho, for each instruction that can take a 32-bit value there is a instruction with the same name but the suffix: 64
19:36:11 <tusho> a b c TOP -> b a c TOP
19:36:31 <AnMaster> tusho, so where does dip/undip put the values?
19:36:49 <tusho> AnMaster: yeah, probably
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19:37:38 <AnMaster> tusho, what about my "64" suffix idea?
19:37:46 <tusho> AnMaster: you should pick one ;)
19:37:52 <tusho> just do 32-bit, sheesh :P
19:40:03 <tusho> AnMaster: confused endian
19:40:20 <tusho> MOST IMPORTANT LEAST IMPORTANT ... SECONDLEAST IMPORTANT SECONDMOST IMPORTANT
19:40:46 <AnMaster> well the perl configure did check for it
19:41:06 <tusho> AnMaster: what, confused endien?
19:41:25 <tusho> AnMaster: just wow
19:41:31 <AnMaster> it said something like "checking your endianness"
19:41:32 <tusho> it's esoteric, certainly
19:41:40 <AnMaster> and then saying "if output is blah" then big endian
19:41:56 <AnMaster> if different you use mixed endian
19:42:02 <tusho> AnMaster: ok, but I don't think it's mine
19:42:15 <tusho> 5 is most important (largest)
19:42:17 <tusho> mine goes like this:
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19:42:44 <tusho> AnMaster: well, mine is crazier
19:43:02 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Middle-endian
19:43:23 <tusho> AnMaster: well, that's not mine
19:43:26 <tusho> mine is totally confusing
19:43:34 <AnMaster> tusho, agreed, but it is still "unusual"
19:43:47 <AnMaster> and I'm going for little endian then?
19:44:01 <tusho> for no real reason
19:44:14 <AnMaster> tusho, little is simpler on x86_64
19:44:32 <AnMaster> but I need to check at compile time of interpreter I guess for endianness
19:44:58 <AnMaster> tusho, look network byte order is big endian
19:45:11 <tusho> AnMaster: your machine is 'internet ready'
19:45:13 <AnMaster> so that means a slowdown on little endian systems?
19:45:14 <tusho> if you do big endian
19:45:33 <fizzie> I've used ARM's "feature" of strange rotations on misaligned full-word writes (mentioned in that Wikipedia section) once when writing assembly for the Nintendo DS. (Well, tried to use; the emulator I used actually did it wrong.)
19:45:39 <AnMaster> thus it is only fair that the little endian systems gain a bit of speed elsewhere!
19:45:39 <tusho> i was the one who suggested big endian
19:45:51 <tusho> fizzie: you know, you are the best contributor to #esoteric. :-P
19:47:07 <fizzie> I've forgotten the specifics. I think it was in thumb mode, so actually doing the corresponding rotation would have meant one more instruction.
19:47:52 <fizzie> Thumb mode is the one where the opcodes are 16-bit, instead of the 32-bit "ARM mode".
19:48:07 <tusho> a real world example of it
19:48:18 <tusho> AnMaster: of the thing you were doing
19:48:29 <AnMaster> tusho, well amd64 already have it
19:48:47 <AnMaster> and I dropped it for suffixes after what you said!
19:49:27 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I will soon need a 64-bit value for the opcode itself ;)
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19:49:55 <AnMaster> I think I will use 16 bits for the opcode, for future compatiblity
19:50:05 <tusho> AnMaster: j/k, right?
19:50:25 <tusho> executables will be insanely huge
19:50:29 <AnMaster> what will you do/say if I say 1) yes 2) no
19:50:47 <tusho> 2) no - i will kill you as you sleep
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19:54:28 <ihope> Use 16 bits for opcodes, but then make all executables compressed?
19:54:33 <ihope> With very lightweight compression such as Huffman coding or something.
19:55:55 <tusho> AnMaster: that won't fit nicely
19:56:17 <ihope> If 90% of your code consists of one opcode, that one opcode can be 0 and the rest can start with 1.
19:56:53 <ihope> What are you designing, anyway?
19:57:09 <AnMaster> ihope, an assembly language + byte coder interpreter
19:58:18 <AnMaster> anyway what about 8 bits by default, unless the the value is 255, then see next 16 bits for more details?
19:58:29 <AnMaster> I will need variable width for arguments anyway
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19:59:51 <ihope> So 255 of the opcodes are xxxxxxxx minus a small fraction of a bit, 65536 of them are 11111111xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
20:00:34 <ihope> Do you think that 255/256 of the opcodes in a file will be eight-bit opcodes?
20:01:55 <ihope> More reasonable, I think: there are 240 8-bit opcodes, which are xxxxxxxx where the first four bits are not all 1, and 65536 16-bit opcodes, which are 1111xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
20:02:19 <AnMaster> ihope, for now I don't have that many instructions
20:02:22 <ihope> You lose 15 possible 8-bit opcodes, but then the 16-bit opcodes are four bits smaller.
20:02:33 <AnMaster> ihope, and yes that sounds good
20:02:59 <ihope> Maybe the 16-bit opcodes can be 1111xxxxxxxxxxxx, even, only 12 bits of actual opcode data, but still quite a bit.
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20:09:36 <AnMaster> ihope, should the program counter register be read only?
20:10:06 <AnMaster> well only way to change would be JMP and such really, wouldn't it?
20:10:32 <ihope> Now you can use a SET (or LOAD or whatever) instead of a JMP and perhaps save... something.
20:10:55 <AnMaster> also we need to support PIC code don't we?
20:12:09 <AnMaster> used in *.so on linux for example
20:12:43 <AnMaster> in fact most arches except x86 *need* PIC in *.so
20:14:52 <AnMaster> tusho, ihope: How much ram (and if "decided at runtime": how to let program find out?)
20:15:01 <tusho> AnMaster: you are bikeshedding a bit
20:15:51 <ihope> Decided at runtime.
20:15:51 <tusho> AnMaster: decided at runtime, and don't let the program find out
20:15:57 <tusho> it never needs to, really
20:16:01 <tusho> i don't know of any arch that can do that
20:16:07 <tusho> maybe x86_64, which can make you toast
20:16:20 <tusho> AnMaster: oh, not sure how that works
20:16:28 <tusho> try and access high memory addresses
20:16:32 <tusho> the first segfault is your limit ;)
20:16:57 <AnMaster> well I vote for ID instruction
20:17:18 <AnMaster> lets say: at least x kb but additional can be available: check with ID instruction?
20:20:16 <tusho> AnMaster: i don't vote
20:20:37 <AnMaster> actually, lets make it a special purpose register
20:21:25 <AnMaster> only special purpose registers that are needed are stack base/top, program counter and exception table
20:21:39 <AnMaster> exception table is a jump table for exceptions
20:22:56 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I need a way to be able to write to a single byte in the memory or read from one
20:23:06 <AnMaster> so MOV* will have 8 suffixes variants too
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20:53:33 <oklopol> 20:35… × AnMaster runs <<< you would probably be a very weird guy to have an irl conversation with.
21:02:00 <AnMaster> +---------------+---------------+-------------------------------+-----
21:02:00 <AnMaster> | 16 bits | 16 bits | 32 bits | ...
21:02:00 <AnMaster> +---------------+---------------+-------------------------------+-----
21:02:00 <AnMaster> | Magic word | Size of table | First Pointer | ...
21:02:00 <AnMaster> +---------------+---------------+-------------------------------+-----
21:02:14 <AnMaster> YAY I ALWAYS WANTED SUCH A DIAGRAM!
21:02:27 <AnMaster> (yes really, I always wanted a bit diagram)
21:03:35 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway this is the page table
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21:03:52 <AnMaster> where the program jumps on errors
21:04:09 <AnMaster> like: invalid opcode, invalid address, invalid <other>
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21:09:28 <tusho> Hmm. More people should use #pfft. :P
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21:15:41 <tusho> oklopol: so cool that oklopol won't grace its prescence
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21:21:59 <AnMaster> tusho, what was that last highlight about?
21:22:14 <tusho> tusho: AnMaster: basically, keeping #esoteric about esolangs.
21:22:23 <tusho> it isn't actually about gay sex, I was making a joke
21:22:26 <tusho> you know, these weird things
21:22:35 <AnMaster> well I don't have time for off topic chat
21:22:51 <tusho> AnMaster: you're much too busy making pointless things? :-P
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21:35:38 <SimonRC> # I wanna limo at the airport / and one at the hotel '
21:35:56 <SimonRC> # A limo for my minder / and my analist as well #
21:36:10 <SimonRC> # A limo for my make-up girl / a limo for my dog #
21:36:25 <SimonRC> # A limo parked beside the bed / to drive me to the bog. #
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21:37:39 <SimonRC> oops, maybe I repelled him
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21:37:56 <SimonRC> oops, no, different version
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21:44:01 <oklopol> i'm richer than all of you put together
21:44:07 <oklopol> well not really, but you know.
21:44:26 <Slereah_> Even ais and his Turing money? :o
21:44:42 <oklopol> in the sense of not meaning anything by that, yes.
21:51:22 <SimonRC> Slereah_: I thought it was the Wolfram prize?
21:51:56 <Slereah_> It's like blood money, made from blood
21:56:10 <SimonRC> how finely can one draw the line between executable regions and writable regions on the x86?
21:56:26 <Slereah_> I don't even know what that means, I can't help you much
22:09:31 <oerjan> about 7000 nanometers. hope this helps.
22:11:05 <Slereah_> 7000 nanometers is a silly unit
22:11:34 <oerjan> no it isn't. it's exactly the same length.
22:11:45 <SimonRC> I mean, on a byte level or on a page level?
22:12:03 <SimonRC> or to some other degree of granularity?
22:12:14 <Slereah_> So is 7.39916387 10^-22 light years
22:12:20 <Slereah_> That doesn't make it less silly
22:12:54 <SimonRC> 'cause it might be nice to be able to write a Forth where every word was non-executable unti lit was finished, whereupon it became executable but not writable.
22:17:30 <fizzie> I think x86-64 does it on a per-page granularity; while old x86 only has a per-segmet-descriptor memory protection bit, which doesn't really help any.
22:18:24 <fizzie> At least that's what I remeber from the explanations of OpenBSD's "W^X" security feature and why it only works on more sensible hardware.
22:19:11 <fizzie> Wikipedia article of "NX bit" is probably friendly.
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22:29:37 <tusho> Slereah_: Presumably he spent it on university.
22:29:45 <tusho> That seems an aisy thing to do.
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22:38:13 <Slereah2> How expensive is British university?
22:39:04 <Slereah2> Here, you could get like 500 years of inscription for it for 25.000 euros
22:43:02 <SimonRC> depends on how rich you are
22:43:21 <SimonRC> you get extra cash/loans if you are "poor"
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22:44:16 <Slereah2> I'm glad to be in this socialist dictatorship.
22:44:57 <tusho> ais would spend it on uni anyway
22:46:11 <SimonRC> you just figure out the complete set of moral values, then follow them
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22:52:27 <Slereah2> I should try to program shit in Thue.
22:54:39 <SimonRC> ooh, nice: http://llvm.org/demo/
22:56:28 <SimonRC> Slereah2: your could invent a benchmark called "shit"
22:56:39 <SimonRC> then you could literally program shit in Thue
22:57:45 <Slereah2> The shit programming language, to test metalanguages? :o
23:01:50 <Slereah2> Are the ++ used for representing any string?
23:02:02 <Slereah2> I can't really find a complete description of the language
23:17:18 <AnMaster> Slereah2, I wonder same as Slereah2 about Corun
23:17:35 <tusho> Presumably it was a joke in another channel
23:24:16 <Corun> Sorry about the temporary flash...
23:25:26 <Corun> And, it was a joke in another chunnel.
23:25:32 <Corun> tusho is very astute
23:26:32 <tusho> yep just a regular unspecial genius
23:26:34 <tusho> no accomplishments
23:27:18 <Slereah2> Your genius can be recognized, tusho
23:27:34 <tusho> a finite state machine is somethiing I wish I could be a clever as
23:27:51 <Slereah2> You're more of a bounded storage machine kinda guy
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00:20:59 <oklopol> lol, thought that "presumably it was a joke in another channel" was about "AnMaster: Slereah2, I wonder same as Slereah2 about Corun", because i automatically skip all nick changes when reading, tusho's comment did indeed seem quite astute, especially as AnMaster is only on #esoteric :P
00:21:38 <tusho> also, is that the first time you've used the word astute
00:22:56 <Slereah2> I personally prefer the word "saucy".
00:23:13 <oklopol> so if you're called astute, i will use that same term
00:23:23 <oklopol> even if not about you, but about your comment, which is kinda weird
00:25:47 <oklopol> so what's the seven today?
00:30:32 <oklopol> it's like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8, 9 for me
00:31:59 <oklopol> tusho: actually, how was astute wrong describing a comment?
00:32:41 <oklopol> i tend to believe i'm wrong when it comes to... anything.
00:32:46 <oklopol> okay, then i'm not sure what you meant
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04:39:22 <Slereah2> Just that it would be funny if there were actually that guy.
04:57:25 <Slereah2> Yes, because it was quite lame originally
04:59:20 <Slereah2> They have infinitely many answers, but they only want the answer they're thinking off.
05:00:41 <ihope> Here, have an open-ended riddle: What is the answer to this riddle?
05:00:52 <ihope> There is only one correct answer, of course: "This."
05:01:32 <Slereah2> Is no the answer to this riddle? :o
05:01:57 <Slereah2> Of course, one might say "negative".
05:02:14 <Slereah2> So you'd have to use a larger class of no.
05:02:16 <ihope> The answer is "no".
05:02:30 <ihope> The riddle isn't working properly, you see.
05:02:46 <Slereah2> But, if it is no, that means that no isn't the answer? :o
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10:02:56 <AnMaster> <oklopol> lol, thought that "presumably it was a joke in another channel" was about "AnMaster: Slereah2, I wonder same as Slereah2 about Corun", because i automatically skip all nick changes when reading, tusho's comment did indeed seem quite astute, especially as AnMaster is only on #esoteric :P
10:03:13 <AnMaster> just they are hidden due to some user mode...
10:03:23 <AnMaster> you only see the channel I share in /whois
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11:19:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but we're talking about ehird's perspective, so it's pretty much the same thing
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13:21:20 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p621246134.txt <<< suggestion based language
13:21:51 <oklopol> under construction, and so esoteric you could eat off of it.
13:22:21 <oklopol> but as you can see from the "functional" definitions of the functions, you can be a bit more declarative
13:23:10 <oklopol> the idea is, you *suggest* pieces of computation, the interp finds a way to actually use that computation to get the correct sequence
13:23:27 <oklopol> because atm it only supports integer functions
13:24:03 <oklopol> tusho's not here, so no one prolly cares, but ask me for details if ya feel like it :P
13:25:36 <oklopol> {{...}} marks something failed, ((...)) means it did what the definition asks for
13:26:03 <Ilari> How is failure defined?
13:26:27 <oklopol> that at that point, neither returning a nor b will do what the definition asks for
13:27:21 <oklopol> for instance, for the rule a=a+b, without b=a, the sequence [(1,1),(1,1),(1,1)...] will be generated, so @ fib 2, fib 4 - fib 3 != fib 2
13:27:29 <oklopol> which means that ruleset is incorrect
13:30:02 <oklopol> as it is, this is very pointless, but i like the idea of just kinda suggesting the computational part, and letting it give you the details
13:30:55 <oklopol> for instance, for look-and-say, you'd just give a few examples, and tell it it should be counting subsequences consisting of the same character
13:31:14 <oklopol> i like the idea of doing this in an ef-like regex-list way
13:31:28 <oklopol> as it is one of my languages too
13:32:04 <Ilari> What's Ef? Got some URL?
13:32:39 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/ef.txt dunno if that's helpful
13:32:40 <Ilari> (searching esolangs.org gets no hits)...
13:32:51 <oklopol> yeah, i'm a bit afraid of wikis
13:33:06 <oklopol> i've been going to add all my langs there
13:33:25 <oklopol> Ef is a functional language with a twist
13:33:40 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/ cise and the ones after it are mine
13:34:14 <oklopol> graphica and oklotalk-- are the only ones with a working implementation
13:34:28 <Ilari> To me, that Ef looks a lot like Haskell...
13:34:52 <oklopol> the twist is, every time you apply a function to something, you take the fixed-point of it
13:35:09 <oklopol> what looks like haskell about it? :P
13:35:28 <oklopol> it is *very* different semantically, but in my opinion syntactically as well
13:35:44 <Ilari> That kind of defining functions by formulas.
13:35:54 <oklopol> (double n) = (doublecum n n/2) ! n
13:36:08 <oklopol> well that's just setting a variable to a lambda
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13:37:01 <oklopol> python does it too, fac = (lambda a,b:a(a,b))(lambda f,n:n==0 and 1 or f(n-1)*n)
13:38:12 <oklopol> fac = lambda n:(lambda a,b:a(a,b))(lambda f,n:n==0 and 1 or f(f,n-1)*n,n)
13:38:47 <oklopol> sorry, added the function to give fac to itself after realizing python doesn't indeed have a recursion construct
13:39:10 <oklopol> and was in too much of a hurry to fix
13:39:55 <oklopol> well, (double n) = (doublecum n n/2) ! n doesn't take the fixed-point, this is just some ugly sugar for the fixed-point definition
13:40:10 <oklopol> because the fixed-point definition is overkill for simple stuff like this
13:40:27 <oklopol> this is basically: to double n, call the function to double it, and extract the result.
13:40:41 <oklopol> doublecum does the actual multiplication by two
13:40:48 <oklopol> but with a cool fixed-point
13:40:54 <oklopol> doublecum = (n .add):{n+add add/2}
13:41:09 <oklopol> "take two args, n and add, and take fixed-point of add"
13:41:21 <oklopol> now, n is the cumulative sum, add is what's added to it each iteration
13:41:40 <oklopol> fixed-point(function) is basically while(true){function}
13:42:14 <oklopol> so fixed-point of (f n) is (f (f (f (... (f(f n)))))
13:42:57 <oklopol> so, doublecum takes an n, and an "add", which should always be n/2 when it's called
13:43:08 <oklopol> it then generates the sequence
13:43:37 <oklopol> (n, n/2), (n+n/2, n/4), (n+n/2+n/4, n/8)
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13:43:56 <oklopol> as you prolly know from math, n approaches n*2
13:44:15 <oklopol> ais523: read logs for a new language of mine, and obscure rant about Ef!
13:44:45 <oklopol> applying a function is taking the fixed-point of it
13:45:11 <oklopol> so it's syntactically functional, but imperative/declarative in semantics
13:45:30 <oklopol> hmm, actually just parsing ski
13:45:36 <oklopol> but it should be simple to actually execute too
13:45:38 <oklopol> parseski={!x:_;(!x=='` & ! x+1 & ! x+2 ~ (class[])) => ! x..x+2 = [! x+1,! x+2]}
13:45:48 <Ilari> Least fixed points apparently have connection to complexity. For first-order logic + LFP, you apparently get P (polynomial time), and for second-order logic + LFP you apparently get EXPTIME...
13:46:14 <oklopol> it's actually perfect for executing non deterministic stuff, because you don't tell it the order of reductions
13:46:16 <ais523> oklopol: should I read today's logs, or yesterday's, or both?
13:46:23 <oklopol> ais523: just before you joined
13:47:38 <oklopol> Ilari: not least fixed point, you tell it from where to start
13:47:57 <oklopol> it's not that you give it a function f, and it finds the least x for which f x = x
13:48:42 <ais523> oklopol: it reminds me a bit of one of my as-yet-undocumented idea-languages, but it's different
13:48:57 <oklopol> it's a very weird paradigm
13:49:05 <oklopol> very fun and different to program in
13:49:19 <oklopol> basically, there are two things it's good at
13:49:28 <oklopol> one is just the mathematical fixed-point stuff
13:49:53 <oklopol> you can use the infinite sequence and it does all the precision work for you
13:50:17 <oklopol> you can also program by telling it stuff that can be wrong in the input
13:50:22 <ais523> oklopol: I'm talking about Tinker
13:50:28 <oklopol> and tell it how to correct the errors
13:50:33 <ais523> Proud did much the same thing, but in an uncomputable and crazy way
13:50:38 <ais523> basically, it took all possible functions
13:50:44 <ais523> then you gave it information about the functions
13:50:51 <ais523> and it rejected the ones that didn't comply with your info
13:51:00 <oklopol> yeah, that was basically my idea too
13:51:03 <ais523> so if you write something like fib n = fib n+2 - fib n+1
13:51:19 <ais523> then it rejects all functions that don't have that property
13:51:34 <oklopol> yep, unfortunately that's still infinite functions :P
13:51:37 <ais523> one unusual thing I noticed about Proud was that it was above-TC despite having no way to loop
13:52:00 <ais523> oklopol: Proud didn't just do integer functions, it does everything, even higher-order functions
13:52:19 <oklopol> i mean, i know you, so i guessed that.
13:52:20 <ais523> but yes, clearly it's unimplementable
13:52:47 <oklopol> did i already show you muture?
13:52:59 <oklopol> because it's similar to yours
13:53:00 <ais523> I've only ever described it in #esoteric
13:53:06 <ais523> it's only an idea-language, I haven't worked out the details
13:53:11 <oklopol> your other impossible language
13:53:23 <ais523> and I don't know muture
13:53:52 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/muture.txt
13:53:52 <ais523> oklopol: I think that was Proud
13:53:56 <oklopol> it's a functional language
13:54:04 <oklopol> with two declarative constructs
13:54:21 <ais523> oklopol: are you comparing functions for equality there?
13:54:21 <oklopol> ">> expression" means "maximize result of expression"
13:54:37 <oklopol> ":: expression" == "make expression true"
13:54:46 <oklopol> ais523: i'm not comparing them
13:54:59 <ais523> ah, that :: thing is something that INTERCAL really seems to want
13:55:11 <oklopol> the language doesn't guarantee perfect results.
13:55:20 <oklopol> it was originally designed for graphical purposes
13:55:31 <ais523> ever since assignment to expressions was implemented, INTERCAL seems to want a fully general declarativeness
13:55:35 <oklopol> but i reduced it to a declarative language first, and decided to add graphics later
13:55:44 <ais523> but I can't think of a sensible way to implement it
13:56:06 <oklopol> ais523: i'll go do laundry, try to deduce what that code does, it's fairly simple :P
13:56:50 <ais523> oklopol: Levenstein distance, obviously
13:57:33 <ais523> or in this case, finding the word with the most similar Levenstein distance
13:57:44 <ais523> assuming that \ is some sort of member-of operator
13:58:06 <ais523> hmm... muture seems capable of similar things to Cyclexa
13:58:15 <ais523> which I really ought to get around to writing some day
13:58:42 <ais523> they're different languages in paradigm and syntax and so on, but strike me as similar in the sort of programs they'd be good at
14:01:45 <ais523> freenode-connect: stop being so slow, I joined over a quarter of an hour ago
14:02:15 <Ilari> At least you didn't get killed by your own ghost... :-)
14:02:32 <ais523> Ilari: that would be embarassing
14:02:49 <ais523> but generally it's me killing the ghosts
14:02:52 <ais523> the router here is dodgy
14:02:58 <ais523> and I often have to reset my connection
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14:04:14 <Ilari> Apparently if client breaks the connection while network is split and joins the other side of split and original server won't notice before network is joined again, you get killed by your own ghost.
14:04:30 <ais523> yes, I can see how that would confuse an ircd
14:10:11 <Ilari> Apparently computers had so little power when IRC was designed that one couldn't allow multiply-connected server connection graphs (IRC interserver connection graph is spanning tree, which makes it very vulernable to netsplits). :-(
14:13:19 <Ilari> Spanning graph connections makes it so that if ANY interserver connection drops for any reason, you get netsplit. Also, if any IRCD with degree greater than one crashes, you also get a netsplit (along with possibly some dropped users).
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14:13:50 <ais523> Ilari: I'd always wondered why IRC was a spanning tree
14:13:55 <ais523> I assumed it was to make routing easier
14:14:30 <pikhq> I always assumed it was to be annoying.
14:15:20 <Ilari> It is because if it was general graph, you would have to have a mechanism for killing duplicate messages.
14:15:55 <ais523> Ilari: well, you could just send sequence numbers or something
14:16:01 <ais523> but one good thing about IRC is how simple the protocol is
14:16:10 <ais523> I can, and have, written IRC by hand, it's not particularly difficult
14:16:28 <Ilari> Yes, it makes message routing easier. With spanning tree it is just: Send your own messages to all outgoing links and send messages coming from link to all other links.
14:16:53 <AnMaster> Ilari, most ircds only send to those links that need it
14:17:24 <AnMaster> and there are experiments in meshed ircds
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14:18:19 <ais523> AnMaster: I've been working on the INTERCAL external-calls stuff recently
14:18:26 <ais523> still the INTERCAL-C bits
14:18:50 <ais523> AnMaster: it was for a silly but necessary reason
14:19:01 <ais523> I'm trying to create a way to define new expression operators in INTERCAL itslef
14:19:28 <ais523> which means that you need to be able to do NEXTs out of and RESUMEs into the middle of an expression
14:19:46 <ais523> the only solution I could think of was to use the external calls mechanism to get the INTERCAL program to do ffi to itself
14:20:31 <ais523> the code for that's about half-written now
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14:22:45 <pikhq> I am mildly insane.
14:22:56 <pikhq> ATM, I suffer from the urge to make a distro smaller than tomsrtbt.
14:23:11 <ais523> pikhq: I've used ucLinux, is tomsrtbt even smaller than that?
14:23:22 <pikhq> ucLinux is a kernel. . .
14:23:30 <ais523> pikhq: ah, ucLinux/Busybox
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14:23:46 <ais523> in order to make the full OS
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14:24:08 <pikhq> tomsrtbt is kernel+busybox+dosfsutils+ext2utils+reiserutils+httpd, basically.
14:24:10 <ais523> I have fond memories of customising it to be able to fit Python and the entire OS onto just 16MB of hard disk space
14:24:19 <pikhq> Oh, and a complete Lua environment.
14:24:25 <oklopol> ais523: yes, it's exactly that, although as you said, quite obvious
14:24:51 <pikhq> The reason I think I can make it smaller: frankly, it's old.
14:25:10 <pikhq> It predates such niceties as the linux-tiny patches, uclibc, squashfs-lzma, etc.
14:25:34 <pikhq> So, it's got that 2MB using straight glibc. . .
14:25:42 <ais523> pikhq: also, you can do things like customize BusyBox to make it smaller by removing unused programs from it
14:26:03 <ais523> pikhq: can you get it down to 32 bytes?
14:26:18 <ais523> that was my target when trying to make a small TC lang interp
14:26:19 <pikhq> That's perhaps 2 or 3 opcodes. :p
14:26:29 <ais523> it didn't matter which lang, just to make the interp as short as possible
14:26:35 <ais523> so I invented MiniMAX for that purpose
14:26:37 <pikhq> (assuming an ELF header)
14:26:47 <ais523> pikhq: ELF's really bloated
14:27:05 <ais523> you can fit most of a BF interp in a minimum-length ELF program
14:27:14 <ais523> because you can put machine language in unused header fields
14:27:40 <ais523> I was using DOS .COM format to save on overhead
14:28:06 <pikhq> Well, yeah; after all, .COM has 0 overhead.
14:28:23 <ais523> so it gives a fairer count of the true length of a program
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15:00:20 <pikhq> I'm getting $8,000 in renewable scholarships.
15:00:39 <pikhq> From the university itself.
15:00:53 <ais523> I only get £500 in scholarships a year
15:01:00 <pikhq> Only $3,000 in financial aid, though.
15:01:04 <ais523> and only if I get high grades
15:01:11 <pikhq> But, that makes about half of my college paid for.
15:01:15 <ais523> and they just go towards reducing the fee from very lots to lots
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15:04:58 <pikhq> In other words: dammit, this kicks some major ass.
15:10:06 <ais523> pikhq: what are you studying?
15:10:23 <pikhq> Computer science & applied math; dual major.
15:11:15 <Ilari> Heh... Just worked out how to write valid enough a.out headers (36 bytes on i386, space not reusable)...
15:13:31 <Ilari> 9 little-endian header fields. First is 6553863, second is size of program code and the remaining seven zeroes.
15:14:29 <ais523> does anyone use a.out format nowadays?
15:14:43 <ais523> also, why is it named after a default filename?
15:14:54 <pikhq> Sometimes in initrd's. . .
15:15:01 <pikhq> If you're really *that* anal about binary size, of course.
15:17:07 <Ilari> And if one is really anal about binary size, doing tricks like using mmap to load 'shared' libs is also probably useful.
15:18:14 <Ilari> Linux/x64 does support a.out, but the binaries are 32-bit.
15:19:30 <pikhq> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lstdc++
15:19:36 * pikhq flips off this build system
15:20:02 <Ilari> pikhq: libstdc++ package missing?
15:20:25 <pikhq> [pikhq@localhost specs_finished]$ ls /usr/lib | grep stdc++libstdc++.so.5@libstdc++.so.5.0.7*libstdc++.so.6@libstdc++.so.6.0.9*
15:20:32 <ais523> I had a problem a while ago where there was a broken version of libstdc++ higher in my build path than the correct version
15:20:38 <ais523> s/build path/.so search path/
15:20:47 <ais523> no idea how it got there, but it utterly broke my system
15:21:00 <ais523> most of the executables on it stopped working, but luckily bash and mv were still working
15:21:01 <pikhq> It seems to be trying to statically link in libstdc++.
15:21:08 <ais523> and then the system started working again
15:21:20 <pikhq> Which makes me wonder if maybe Mandriva has libstdc++.a in a seperate package.
15:22:13 <Ilari> Ah... Package search paths. I once ran into problem that scons built a (not very) substly broken binary. But repeat the link on command line using EXACT SAME command it said it ran, and it would link working executable...
15:23:58 <Ilari> pikhq: Are you using 'gcc' to compile/link C++ code?
15:24:44 <pikhq> I just didn't have libstdc++.a.
15:24:55 <pikhq> Which is a problem when the package is trying to statically link something.
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15:25:16 <oklopol> i'm quite in a dilemma with my university courses, 6 of the courses i've taken sofar i've gotten grade 5/5 from, and i got 3/5 from one, probably because i used oklotalk to answer the questions
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15:26:33 <Ilari> pikhq: AFAIK, if you put -lfoo as linker option it searches for both libfoo.a and libfoo.so...
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15:26:35 <oklopol> now i basically have to redo that
15:26:57 <pikhq> Ilari: The linker is being explicitly told to statically link everything.
15:27:14 <oklopol> disconnected, not sure what got through: i'm quite in a dilemma with my university courses, 6 of the courses i've taken sofar i've gotten grade 5/5 from, and i got 3/5 from one, probably because i used oklotalk to answer the questions
15:27:28 <oklopol> now i basically have to redo that
15:27:57 <oklopol> but... you can't *almost* reach perfection, and then not.
15:28:27 <oklopol> others are 5/5, it would feel lonely.
15:29:46 <AnMaster> oh god... you won't need 5/5 in it afaik?
15:30:01 <oklopol> the problem is, of course, that the more fives i get the harder the strike is when i can't five a course :P
15:30:14 <ais523> here they mark people with percentages
15:30:24 <ais523> >70% is the top grade boundary
15:30:45 <oklopol> that's better in that you can't get obsessed with getting 100%, cuz you never do anyway
15:30:48 <ais523> and in some subjects everyone gets 50-80%, and in some it ranges from about 1% to about 99%
15:30:55 <AnMaster> Underkänt, Godkänkt, Väl Godkänt
15:31:05 <pikhq> oklopol: Some people can pull it off. Granted, that's usually in high school. . .
15:31:16 <pikhq> Where, frankly, grades seem inflated for the most part.
15:31:24 <oklopol> pikhq: sure, but i'm just a regular genius
15:31:33 <pikhq> (how the fuck does it make sense for me to get 112% in a class?)
15:31:51 <oklopol> well, i don't really consider high school anything
15:32:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: In US high schools, almost trivial.
15:32:40 <AnMaster> well highschools in Sweden use:
15:32:55 <pikhq> If you only bother with putting up with the BS that is easy, boring, useless homework.
15:33:05 <AnMaster> IG (not passed), G (passed), VG (very passsed), MVG (excellent passed)
15:33:08 <pikhq> And easier, more boring, more useless extra credit.
15:33:33 <oklopol> at the end of high school i kept getting grades 5/[10]
15:33:47 <oklopol> at the end of high school i kept getting grades 5/[4..10] in high school and 5/5 in uni
15:33:59 <ais523> the A-level grading system here in the UK doesn't make a whole load of sense
15:34:04 <ais523> the percentages are scaled for everyone
15:34:17 <ais523> so in some subjects I had several modules at 100%
15:34:26 <ais523> because it would have been 110% or so but it's capped at 100%
15:34:35 <ais523> AnMaster: basically they add marks to everyone or remove marks from everyone
15:34:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is bad translation
15:34:45 <ais523> according to whether the exam was easy or difficult
15:34:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, it makes sense in Swedish "väl godkänt"
15:35:19 <ais523> this explains how I got several 100%s despite not answering all the questions
15:35:27 <ais523> because I got the exam mostly right, and it was scaled upwards
15:35:33 <ais523> I think exams are mostly scaled upwards nowadays
15:35:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well, several people did, just several more people did really badly
15:37:32 <pikhq> I fucking hate this package.
15:37:48 <ais523> the way the group project was marked here at Uni was pretty silly too, though
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15:37:55 <ais523> there were four groups of ten people
15:37:58 <ais523> each group was given a mark
15:38:10 <ais523> and all the marks were about 68% because they took care to balance the groups
15:38:38 <ais523> but before the marks were given, the members of each group had to agree what proportion of the final mark would be split to each person
15:38:56 <AnMaster> ais523, err that seems totally unfair?
15:39:04 <ais523> so for instance, I ended up with 10.73% (I think) of the 680% the group had
15:39:20 <ais523> AnMaster: well, the idea was that some people in each group would have worked harder than others
15:39:26 <ais523> and the marks should be given accordingly
15:39:37 <AnMaster> good idea, stupid implementation
15:39:40 <ais523> still, yes it's a pretty silly system that I don't agree with
15:39:54 <ais523> incidentally, some of that 68% was made up of the groups grading each other
15:40:01 <ais523> so we all agreed beforehand to all give each other top marks
15:41:57 <ais523> the grading system the year before that was even sillier, by the way
15:42:10 <ais523> basically, groups could do work for each other in exchange for marks
15:42:14 <ais523> and people could exchange marks freely
15:42:15 <pikhq> http://hea-www.harvard.edu/RD/ds9/
15:42:36 <ais523> and before work started, groups had to draft contracts, signed by them and the supervisor, explaining how marks would be allocated
15:42:47 <ais523> the supervisor signed the one I drafted without reading it
15:42:59 <ais523> which is good because I left loopholes in there that I could have used to get arbitrarily high marks
15:43:09 <ais523> I didn't use them, though, because I scored well enough anyway
15:43:34 <AnMaster> which register would be modified?
15:43:43 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on the syntax you're using
15:43:51 <ais523> as there are $ signs there, the second, I think
15:44:12 <ais523> but don't take my word for that, I'm not used to GNU-style assembly syntax
15:44:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm constructing a new asm language
15:44:32 <ais523> I'm used to "statements modify the first register"
15:44:40 <ais523> but some syntaxes use "statements modify the last register"
15:44:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and what is the most common one?
15:45:03 <ais523> I think it differs from OS to OS
15:45:07 <AnMaster> AT&T is more common outside x86 isn't it?
15:45:11 <ais523> on Windows "statements modify the first register" is by far the most common
15:45:32 <ais523> yes, I haven't done much asm work on Linux
15:45:44 <AnMaster> ais523, and it is going to byte code
15:45:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's two syntaxes used on Linux, depending upon your choice of assembler.
15:46:05 <pikhq> AT&T syntax and Intel syntax.
15:46:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, yasm and nasm are only for x86/x86_64 right?
15:46:20 <pikhq> gasm uses AT&T syntax, nasm uses Intel syntax.
15:46:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: Correct.
15:46:28 <Ilari> On Linux, NASM uses 'first argument is destination'. GAS is configurable (defaults to 'last argument is destination).
15:46:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: Correct. Thinko.
15:46:51 <AnMaster> is AT&T more common on non-x86?
15:47:04 <ais523> AnMaster: well, it's used on SPARC IIRC
15:47:32 <pikhq> Well, except that x86 is used everywhere. ;p
15:47:38 <ais523> x86 is still the most commonly used processor architecture on laptops/desktops nowadays
15:47:46 <ais523> although I think it's a minority in embedded systems
15:47:53 <ais523> probably it isn't used much in mainframes either
15:48:08 <pikhq> Mainframes are soley System/360 these days.
15:48:34 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I've used ARM, not at the assembly level though
15:48:38 <AnMaster> isn't IBM's last using Cell processor + Opetrons
15:48:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's not a mainframe, though.
15:49:44 <Ilari> AnMaster: Mainframes specialize in stability, transaction integerity, I/O, etc...
15:49:45 <pikhq> Think System z10, from IBM.
15:50:00 <ais523> well, this isn't a technical definition, but I think of a computer system as being mainframe if it needs its own specially-designed room to be able to run without overheating
15:50:00 <pikhq> (the modern iteration of the System/360 architecture)
15:50:16 <pikhq> ais523: That's horrendously false.
15:50:26 <ais523> that's just how I think of it
15:50:43 <pikhq> Your thoughts need scrubbed clean of that misconception.
15:50:54 <pikhq> That's like claiming a robot is your plastic pal that's fun to be with.
15:51:34 <ais523> Wikipedia: "Today in practice, the term usually refers to computers compatible with the IBM System/360 line, first introduced in 1965."
15:51:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: A computer that is designed for high throughput and high reliability.
15:52:07 <pikhq> Namely, the IBM System/360 line. ;)
15:52:29 <ais523> Wikipedia: "Historically 85% of all mainframe programs were written in the COBOL programming language"
15:52:37 <pikhq> Because those systems are basically the only systems still being made that are designed for that.
15:52:53 <pikhq> ais523: This was in an era where COBOL was well-thought-of.
15:53:03 <ais523> pikhq: yes, but most of that code's still used nowadays
15:53:11 <pikhq> Because it still works.
15:53:26 <pikhq> And has probably been continuously running for a few decades. ;)
15:54:22 * ais523 just found out that someone ported BancSTAR to Windows
15:54:23 <ais523> http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Broadway+&+Seymour%27s+WinPrism+To+Debut+in+Early+1997-a018763321
15:54:29 <ais523> apparently for a serious commercial reason
15:54:37 <ais523> presumably that code still works nowadays, too...
15:54:41 <ais523> or at least it did 11 years ago
15:55:05 <pikhq> Supercomputers, on the other hand, tend to be designed with whatever processor has good bang for the buck.
15:55:30 <pikhq> Which varies depending upon how much money can be sunk into the supercomputer, and what's the best CPU at the time the computer is made. . .
15:55:49 <pikhq> Thus, one sees everything from the Cell to a bunch of Opterons. . .
16:01:08 <RodgerTheGreat> Hm. How many milliseconds would you figure it would take for network traffic to make a round-trip to the opposite side of the earth?
16:02:08 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: not sure
16:02:18 * pikhq wonders if this specific computer is connected to Internet2. :p
16:02:24 <ais523> maybe you could find out by pinging somewhere on the opposite side of the earth
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16:39:19 <ais523> AnMaster: how often would you say it's a good idea to push patches to a publicly-visible server, when writing code in a distributed versioning system
16:39:59 <ais523> at the moment I'm pushing code if it works
16:40:06 <ais523> even if it's a NOP because other bits of the code are missing
16:40:12 <AnMaster> yes good, and "when I'm connected"
16:40:27 <AnMaster> if I work without internet, I can't push of course
16:40:31 <ais523> so there's half an implementation of CREATEing operators in the C-INTERCAL repos at the moment
16:40:42 <ais523> and yes, of course I don't push either if I don't have an Internet connection
16:40:53 * ais523 sets off to write the other half
16:41:00 <AnMaster> I generally don't commit if it crashes or such
16:41:05 <ais523> this half should be easier because I'm more or less duplicating code that already exists
16:41:43 <ais523> I'll see if my bzr is new enough to download the cfunge sources yet
16:41:56 <ais523> which command should I use to copy the repo?
16:41:57 <AnMaster> cfunge is mostly finished apart from: 1) some more fingerprints 2) replace hash library code
16:42:16 <ais523> AnMaster: probably, but I don't know where the website is
16:42:18 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/
16:42:27 <AnMaster> first hit in google on "cfunge"
16:44:31 <ais523> 224 revisions is a lot
16:45:02 <AnMaster> yes I prefer to commit small changes
16:46:53 <ais523> hmm... if a Befunge program's called from inside an INTERCAL program, what should y's list of command-line args return?
16:47:11 <ais523> AnMaster: the Befunge command
16:47:50 <oklofok> ais523: perhaps let the intercal program decide on that?
16:47:56 <oklofok> i mean, let you pass kinda args with that
16:48:01 <ais523> oklofok: ffi doesn't normally mess with command-line args
16:48:40 <ais523> there's also the issue that giving args to the INTERCAL program may make it barf, because all C-INTERCAL programs accept some predefined args
16:48:46 <ais523> oklofok: foreign function interface
16:49:05 <AnMaster> "there's also the issue that giving args to the INTERCAL program may make it barf" <-- eh?
16:49:08 <ais523> but in this case, compiling and linking things to INTERCAL programs that weren't INTERCAL themselves
16:49:26 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway arguments are not the arguments to the interpreter itself iirc?
16:49:32 <oklofok> ais523: i'd say just pass the arguments the intercal program got, then
16:49:39 * AnMaster hasn't been working on cfunge code for a few weeks
16:49:52 <ais523> oklofok: except that the intercal program errors on startup if it gets an arg it doesn't recognise
16:49:56 <ais523> the interp accepts arguments
16:50:03 <ais523> but it also generates programs that accept arguments
16:50:15 <ais523> so all C-INTERCAL programs accept +wimpmode to turn on wimpmode, for instance
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16:50:52 <AnMaster> ais523, well right I see. however
16:51:06 <tusho> ais523: i planned since I turned the computer on...
16:51:10 <AnMaster> ais523, ie, "discard all options from getopt
16:51:29 <tusho> AnMaster: to beat him to welcoming me. we've battled over it since forever
16:51:30 <ais523> AnMaster: to say hi to me before I said hi to him
16:51:55 <ais523> tusho: and that was normal human reaction time, although I was looking at the channel at the time, which gave me an advantage
16:52:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so options to the befunge interepreter itself are *NOT* passed to the program
16:52:18 <AnMaster> ais523, thus same should apply for interfunge I guess?
16:52:39 <ais523> there just needs to be some way to mark arguments as not being to the INTERCAL program
16:52:42 <ais523> -- or something like that
16:53:06 <AnMaster> everything before the file argument: to interpreter
16:53:22 <AnMaster> the program itself is passed as argument 0
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18:04:03 <pikhq> I think I might be insane. . .
18:04:13 <ais523> pikhq: you're here, so that's a good bet
18:04:18 <ais523> but what in particular did you have in mind?
18:04:23 <pikhq> Yesterday, I got fed up with Debian for getting in my way. . .
18:04:38 <pikhq> And went ahead and installed Gentoo, thinking "this is much easier to use".
18:04:52 <tusho> pikhq: NOT ANOTHER GENTOO USER
18:04:55 <pikhq> (okay, fine; so I know Gentoo like the back of my hand)
18:06:36 <pikhq> tusho: What's wrong with Gentoo?
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18:12:10 <pikhq> I've been using Gentoo for 3 or 4 years. . .
18:12:37 <pikhq> I just recently had Debian on one specific box here which I need to use for the next couple of months. . .
18:12:43 <pikhq> Got fed up with it. Wheee.
18:13:09 <ais523> For a long time I was used to using OSs which are pretty much worse than any modern Linux or UNIX deriviative
18:13:18 <ais523> so generally I'm happy with most Linuces
18:13:18 <pikhq> Though I don't use it, I shall always adore it.
18:13:33 <ais523> AnMaster: Windows (back to 3.1), ancient version of SunOS
18:13:40 <ais523> also the BBC Micro, but I rather liked that
18:13:43 <pikhq> It's only right for one to adore one's first distro. ;)
18:14:46 <ais523> well, this is the first Linux-based system I've owned
18:14:50 <ais523> and it runs Ubuntu, as it happens
18:15:06 <ais523> I find the package system to be nice, but the community to be terribly unresponsive
18:16:30 <pikhq> Sweet mother of God.
18:16:40 <pikhq> Gentoo 2008.0 release in a week, folks.
18:17:10 <pikhq> ais523: I honestly prefer the Gentoo community. Has some assholes, but most people are genuinely helpful.
18:17:28 <ais523> well, Debian were very responsive when I filed patches with them, but it depends on which maintainer you get
18:17:36 <pikhq> (except for the retards. Those are usually obvious. 'OMG! USE CFLAGS="-funroll-loops"!'
18:17:49 <tusho> Ubuntu's community is awful.
18:17:55 <ais523> pikhq: what's your opinion on -funroll-loops?
18:17:59 <tusho> OS X's is worse, though. :-P
18:18:04 <pikhq> The website? Hilarious.
18:18:12 <ais523> pikhq: no, the compiler option
18:18:25 <tusho> ais523: http://funroll-loops.info/
18:18:27 <ais523> I didn't know there was a website with that name
18:18:27 <pikhq> Punishable by death.
18:18:44 <tusho> ais523: it's a parody of gentoo users
18:18:55 <ais523> pikhq: I've used that option on microcontroller code before, but I could still beat the result by writing asm by hand
18:19:01 <lament> why is funroll-loops retarded?
18:19:09 <pikhq> It pretty much guarantees an insanely long compile time, and insanely large binary, and a whole hell of a lot of cache misses.
18:19:21 <pikhq> Oh, and it has this annoying tendency of breaking shit.
18:19:47 <tusho> ais523: which language can I write notary2html in to anger you the most?
18:19:49 <pikhq> s/and\ insanely/an\ insanely/
18:19:58 <ais523> pikhq: well, in my case, I was using a system with ROM = several kB, RAM = a few hundred bytes
18:20:28 <pikhq> ais523: It's only sane in a few selected cases, where the user knows WTF he's doing.
18:20:40 <ais523> well, I hope that was one of them
18:20:45 <pikhq> Such as, say, someone who wrote the code. ;)
18:20:55 <ais523> to put it into context, in this project I had the source open in one window and the asm output in another
18:21:05 <ais523> and kept tweaking the source until the asm was as good as it could make it
18:21:15 <tusho> ais523: that was a question >:(
18:21:15 <ais523> in some cases that wasn't good enough so I just wrote it in inline asm
18:21:19 <ais523> that's the sort of project it was
18:21:23 <pikhq> Yeah. That's about when you should be trying -funroll-loops.
18:21:42 <pikhq> People will actually try to use that system-wide.
18:22:02 <ais523> pikhq: anyway, don't say "never use -funroll-loops"
18:22:24 <ais523> say it as "don't use -funroll-loops for bash. don't use -funroll-loops for gcc. don't use -funroll-loops for..." listing every single package in the repo
18:22:30 <ais523> that may get the point across
18:22:37 <pikhq> It's better to say that than risk some n00b thinking that it's a good idea. . .
18:23:01 <pikhq> Fine. "Don't use -funroll-loops unless you're prepared to do a good look over the resulting assembly."
18:23:22 <tusho> pikhq: ais523's way is funnier, though
18:23:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:23:29 <tusho> especially because you'd need to do it in multiple parts
18:23:33 <tusho> otherwise it'd be too big for a message...
18:23:38 <pikhq> If I were in irssi. . .
18:24:20 <lament> so gcc just sucks yes?
18:24:29 <pikhq> /exec -o foreach i in /usr/portage/*/*;echo "Don't use -funroll-loops for $i.";done
18:25:31 <pikhq> lament: No, GCC is great. The only problem with it is the retards who don't look through the documentation and note that a lot of the optimization flags say "This can break shit.".
18:25:51 <lament> but should they break shit?
18:26:08 <pikhq> They're useful in some select cases. . .
18:26:10 <Deewiant> I don't think it's that 'great' that they break shit, documented or not :-P
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18:26:28 <pikhq> And the bit about breaking stuff? The only way those can work involve some other things breaking.
18:26:33 <ais523> normally they only break things in certain situations which shouldn't exist in the first place
18:26:37 <ais523> but that people assume will work anyway
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18:27:05 <lament> so they shouldn't break ansi-conforming code?
18:27:25 <ais523> lament: they shouldn't, I don't know whether they do but they shouldn't
18:27:42 <Ilari> Such as using threads (yes, there have been cases of optimizations that work fine single-threaded, but introduce races or pessimize performance in multi-threaded programs)?
18:28:20 <tusho> heh, I was noting that I hadn't seen Ilari in here before
18:28:24 <tusho> he's the person i dragged here from #git
18:28:49 <ais523> tusho: Ilari was here earlier making useful comments, when you weren't here
18:28:57 <tusho> I noticed, in the logs
18:29:08 <tusho> fizzie's twin, I guess. :-P
18:29:47 <Ilari> Also, maybe collecting useful ideas for his third esolang... :-)
18:30:05 <pikhq> A fairly large amount of the flags that break things involve floating point.
18:30:22 <ais523> pikhq: floating point's interestingly specified in C99 anyway
18:30:24 <pikhq> Because those flags tend to involve reducing precision. . .
18:30:35 <ais523> in particular, I'm not sure how much it says about precision
18:30:43 <ais523> I think there are preprocessor defines that give information on the floating-point model
18:31:09 <ais523> actually, IIRC there are some optimisations that break floating-point programs by using too much precision
18:31:27 <ais523> normally that isn't a problem, but if you're relying on precision working exactly as in the spec there is
18:31:42 <oklofok> soon we shall take over the world
18:31:45 <pikhq> Also, some of the flags that break things are marked as experimental. Now, I've got to wonder why the fuck those are in stable GCC. . .
18:32:13 * ais523 tries to remember which country IRC originated in
18:32:29 <ais523> it was somewhere in Europe, possibly Scandinavia, IIRC
18:33:02 <tusho> ais523: switzerland
18:33:13 <tusho> oklofok: lucky you
18:33:21 <tusho> http://www.kumpu.org/
18:33:29 <tusho> i bet he doesn't actually use irc
18:33:47 <ais523> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35890
18:34:09 <ais523> the thing that gets me is that someone actually filed that bug...
18:34:22 <tusho> Gentoo users can be unbearable
18:35:09 <pikhq> Like I said: there are retards.
18:35:16 <pikhq> And those retards are really retarded.
18:35:17 <tusho> that was filed by the lead maintainer of pidgin
18:35:51 <pikhq> That's kinda. . . Stupid.
18:36:11 <Ilari> The same program that got forked due to 'gnome disease'?
18:36:12 <tusho> pikhq: I'm not suprised that #gaim had tons of gentoo users coming in and complaining when it was their fault
18:36:23 <tusho> Ilari: that fork is pretty stupid, to be honest
18:36:34 <tusho> {This has to be worst initial contact I think anybody could have made. Not sure I expect much more out of somebody that codes for AOL software.} <-- LOL WUT
18:36:41 <tusho> Yes, because gaim has a close and friendly relationship with AOL!
18:36:48 <tusho> AOL totally didn't try and stop them providing a FOSS client. Nope.
18:37:23 <tusho> {This is blasphemy, and just proves there are people with way to much time on their hands. If you got a problem, don't bitch on bugzilla, we have better things to do then listen to your incessant whining.}
18:37:44 <ais523> actually, spamming bugzilla with complaints and nontechnical stuff can really annoy devs very quickly
18:37:52 <Ilari> Refers to thinking that "users are idiots" and can't handle more advanced behaviour, even as configuration option.
18:37:55 <ais523> I know, I have wikimedia bugzilla recent changes piped to my email
18:38:08 <tusho> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=124595 Heh
18:38:22 <tusho> I've read about some of the problems the Quod Libet dev had with gentoo users
18:38:22 <ais523> Ilari: luckily I think Gnome's recovering from that, but I am upset that it doesn't provide access to the screensaver settings at all
18:38:24 <tusho> pretty stupid stuff
18:38:44 <Ilari> They have fixed those file dialogs yet?
18:39:24 <ais523> Ilari: what in particular do you think is wrong with them, I can check, I'm on Gnome right now
18:39:28 <pikhq> tusho: If one could just get rid of certain retards, then all would be well in the world.
18:39:37 <pikhq> They're almost as bad as Ubuntu users. :p
18:40:00 <tusho> Who are almost as bad as OS X users.
18:40:17 <tusho> Though there _is_ a good sized chunk of sane, reasonable, non-fanboy OS X users
18:40:23 <tusho> I like to pretend I'm part of it. :-P
18:41:33 <ais523> personally I think a reasonable user shouldn't have much trouble with any reasonable OS
18:41:46 <ais523> which includes most Linux distros, OS X, and the BSDs
18:41:54 <Ilari> One fun thing to do. You are using Firefox (or some rebranded version of it). You run across some new file type and want to bind it to some other application. Ok, now type path of the application binary (in /usr/bin/ of course) to that file dialog, and watch as application freezes for long time...
18:41:59 <ais523> also Windows when it's been heavily customised to make it bearable, but normally that isn't worth the effort
18:42:12 <ais523> Ilari: that bug's still there, I think
18:42:22 <pikhq> Ilari: I'd love to, except I use Konqueror. :p
18:43:39 <ais523> pikhq: in the last month or so, I've used Firefox 3, Firefox 2, Firefox 1.5, Epiphany, Konqueror, IE7, possibly IE6, Mozilla, and probably w3m
18:44:33 <ais523> lament: it's not that bad when you're used to it
18:44:42 <ais523> but I've got pretty good at adapting to new browsers as a result
18:46:45 <Ilari> My standard complement of browsers is Iceweasel (Debian rebranded Firefox) and Links2 (the text-mode browser with graphical mode).
18:47:42 <ais523> well, I have Firefox 3rc1 on here as my main browser, Konq for looking at things linked from IRC, and Epiphany for when Firefox 3rc1 is hitting the fsync bug because Ubuntu haven't got around to packaging rc2 yet
18:47:48 <ais523> also I use w3m from text mode sometimes
18:47:56 <tusho> ais523: you can change konversation to use firefox you know
18:48:08 <tusho> oh, and rc2? ff3 is out :-P
18:48:26 <ais523> they just renamed the package
18:48:29 <tusho> ais523: no, rc3 is
18:48:35 <tusho> which admittedly only changed on os x
18:48:37 <ais523> ah, I didn't realise there was a third
18:48:44 <AnMaster> rc3 == rc2 except for some OS X fixes
18:48:50 <ais523> but rc2 and ff3, on Windows at least, have the same md5 sum I think
18:49:04 <tusho> uninstall.exe changed from rc2->rc3
18:49:18 <ais523> ok, so it's just the sum of some bit of it
18:49:36 <Ilari> Does FF3 final display yellow address bar on (non-EV) HTTPS sites?
18:49:58 <tusho> heh, fun: Write random sentences into a .com file and run it
18:50:01 <ais523> when on a Windows computer (say if I'm on one of the university's public computers), I end up using a mix of Firefox versions (some run FF2, some run FF1.5), and normally use IE as the secondary browser
18:50:05 <tusho> Apparently 'Fuck you all' gives you an unclosable dos box
18:50:26 <ais523> mostly just to provide email notifications
18:50:28 <tusho> lament: shut up - this is #esoteric
18:50:33 <ais523> but also to log onto a website with multiple users at once
18:50:48 <ais523> also I can shell into CDE on SunOS and use ancient Mozilla
18:51:08 <ais523> that accounts for most of the browsers
18:51:15 <ais523> oh, I think one of my computers at home has IE4
18:51:20 <ais523> but it isn't connected to the internet anyway
18:51:56 <Ilari> Apparently that program contains nice stuff like OUTSD and INSB (I/O hardware banging)...
18:52:04 <AnMaster> <tusho> heh, fun: Write random sentences into a .com file and run it
18:52:11 <Ilari> It may also run off the end and execute garabage.
18:52:27 <ais523> lowercase letters don't disassemble on x86, I think
18:52:33 <tusho> then type it in uppercase
18:52:37 <tusho> GLOBAL THERMONUCLEAR WAR
18:52:50 <ais523> anyway, I never dared to run any of my MiniMAX interps
18:52:55 <ais523> which were each hand-coded in machine code
18:53:00 <Ilari> IIRC, uppercase letters contain tame stuff such as INC, DEC, PUSH and POP...
18:53:05 <ais523> partly because I never got around to writing any MiniMAX programs
18:53:27 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MiniMAX
18:53:28 <tusho> how does this disassemble, Ilari?
18:53:30 <tusho> Global Thermonuclear War
18:53:36 <ais523> it was my attempt at golfing interps
18:53:49 <ais523> there's an example interp right at the bottom
18:54:23 <ais523> in an unrelated machine-language thing, I wrote a program in C that took a binary file as input and compiled it into a .COM file which output that binary file as output
18:54:28 <ais523> except that the .COM file was plaintext
18:54:35 <ais523> i.e. all the characters in it were printable
18:55:02 <ais523> AFAICT such a program has to be self-modifying as there's no way to do a loop otherwise
18:55:26 <ais523> tusho: do you have access to a Windows or DOS box? I'll paste a .COM program that outputs the relevant C file, if you like
18:55:38 <tusho> ais523: I don't, but I have Parallels.
18:55:56 <ais523> oh, I wrote an obfuscated version of it too
18:56:03 <pikhq> ais523: That's fiendishly clever.
18:56:13 <ais523> I was thinking of submitting it to the IOCCC on the basis that it was unclear what the program did even after it was run
18:56:17 <tusho> ais523: paste the file, though
18:56:23 <pikhq> I'd be even more impressed if it only used BIOS calls.
18:56:47 <Ilari> INC EDI; INSB; OUTSD; BOUND ESP, [ECX + 0x6C]; AND [EAX+2*EBP+0x65],DL; JC 0x79; OUTSD; OUTSB; JNZ 0x73; INSB; [GS-seg-override]POPAD; JC 0x35; PUSH EDI; POPAD; JC 0x23
18:57:42 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
18:57:43 <ais523> http://rafb.net/p/ugQVGm20.html
18:58:09 <ais523> the A5 at the end is me signing the program
18:58:16 <ais523> to say it was made by me
18:58:31 <ais523> unfortunately, the output isn't as dense as uucode
18:58:40 <ais523> it alternates between encoding 6 bits and encoding 2 bits IIRC
18:58:42 <tusho> XP_W^VH%35%DCPYXPH%=5%=CP[]UM#(UX%??t&* * * * ZR 1() !GFF=\ouU0_0<0^3L1L0^292L1^1Q1L2Y1D1\3R3P0A3B2D0<1p3p3o11131p3>2D0<3:0<18253<2:170D021p3D0>0A0D0<183<3:1:1D0432041p24143o031p2D0p331o0A2D0B2A3I1J2I1J2D321124310o13031D0=0p3o0302113A220=2I1J2I1J22112o0D011412112B02112o0D042A0D0432041p2B2B2D0o2B1I1J2n3I1J2p231o0o1p212D0B042=0?0B1B2B042B242A142B1B2B042A1@2B1=342B3@1m0m032p0o1o0p3B0D2<2@090@061@1;0@15050@382@380@0D2A0B0o2132130B2B1@263o251B1A042A1@3=342B3@3=3
18:58:49 <tusho> i didn't realise it was that big
18:58:55 <tusho> Ilari: what does it do
18:58:58 <ais523> tusho: well, it's more than an IRC line
18:59:02 <ais523> that's only the first part of the program
18:59:05 <ais523> also there are no line breaks
18:59:23 <ais523> there should be, really, but that's harder to do
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18:59:29 <pikhq> Perhaps one could make a uucode decoder that only uses printable characters?
18:59:41 <ais523> pikhq: well, my idea was that you encode a uucode decoder in that
18:59:56 <ais523> thus making it possible to bootstrap uudecode across a plain-text link
19:00:19 * ais523 wonders if it's possible to do the same in ELF
19:00:23 <pikhq> Great. Now you're making me want to bootstrap Linux from DOS.
19:00:37 <ais523> AnMaster: does it necessarily contain nonprintables?
19:00:39 <ais523> that's what I was wondering about
19:00:47 <pikhq> It tends to contains NULs.
19:00:48 <Ilari> Probably that code would get GPF in that INSB instruction, and if it somehow clears those two HW banging instructions, that bound instruction is likely to either cause page fault or bound exceeded.
19:00:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't really know, but I would think it does
19:01:13 <ais523> probably the program would have to be 0x20202020 bytes long or something silly like that
19:01:32 <AnMaster> Ilari, hah or on x86_64 BOUND cause illegal opcode iirc
19:02:29 <pikhq> You'd also need to make the thing load at something silly, like 0x20202020.
19:02:57 <Ilari> pikhq: Likely Not possible. Last 12 bits must be clear in mmap address.
19:03:00 <ais523> tusho: extracted the original C yet?
19:03:10 <tusho> ais523: No, I'm not starting xp. :P
19:03:18 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder what signal the task is going to get (its task, not process, since its hardware fault signal) if BOUND traps?
19:03:22 <ais523> so how are you running random .COM files/
19:03:39 <pikhq> ais523: Hand execution.
19:03:47 <tusho> pikhq: Sssh! That's a SECRET!
19:04:05 * pikhq applauds tusho for his x86 and DOS knowledge
19:04:35 <ais523> pity, it seems not to work in Wine
19:04:42 <ais523> Wine isn't very good at DOS support AFAICT
19:04:56 <pikhq> Wine only supports Win16 and up.
19:04:57 <ais523> because it doesn't implement all the corner cases
19:05:06 <pikhq> And what amount of DOS is needed for Win16, of course.
19:05:15 <ais523> for instance, I take advantage of the fact that the stack starts with a single 0
19:05:17 <pikhq> Which happens to exclude a ton of corner cases.
19:05:25 <pikhq> ais523: Try Dosemu.
19:05:46 <pikhq> True, though I just prefer DOSemu.
19:05:59 <Ilari> Apparently that signal is sig #11: SIGSEGV.
19:07:53 -!- ais523_ has joined.
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19:08:35 <ais523_> [19:08] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523_: 8 seconds.
19:08:38 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
19:09:14 <ais523> here's an interesting question: if you distribute the binaries for a GPL quine, do you have to provide sources too?
19:10:12 <olsner> you'd better ask the FSF :P
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19:10:47 <pikhq> Of course, the binary counts as a distribution.
19:13:42 <ais523> anyway, apparently it does run in DosBOX
19:13:56 <tusho> what if you don't have an appropriate system
19:14:22 <pikhq> What if you don't have an appropriate decompression system?
19:14:41 <pikhq> Let's say that someone is shipping sources as tar.gz. Should they not be allowed to do that since you don't have tar installed?
19:14:57 <ais523> well, let them ship it as self-extracting uucode instead
19:20:06 * Sgeo managed to misread pikhq as "PSOX"
19:21:30 <tusho> ais523: because all he ever thinks about is PSOX
19:21:35 <tusho> regardless of its dead/alive status :-P
19:22:00 <oklofok> Sgeo is the funniest guy ever :P
19:22:48 <tusho> oklofok: i read that as gay
19:22:54 <tusho> too much augur exposure
19:25:41 <oklofok> tusho is the funniest guy ever :P
19:27:22 <tusho> oh jeez, that was terrible
19:27:28 <oklofok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
19:32:29 <ais523> if the jokes are that bad, I don't want to be involved
19:34:34 <oklofok> involved carries some connotations of having sex, and you did refer to a butt with your "that".
19:34:56 <oklofok> so you pretty much doubled the funniness of my joke.
19:35:13 <ais523> oklofok: that's fine, it made no difference, your joke wasn't funny to begin with
19:36:19 <oklofok> i have a hard time believing you
19:37:06 <olsner> yeah, you don't wanna get *tied up*
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19:50:08 <ais523> AnMaster: cfunge is seriously overengineered
19:50:13 <ais523> but I think it does what I want it to
19:50:28 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out in my head what recursively invoking it from inside itself would do, without running it
19:51:42 <ais523> oh, and in response to your question on the ? commands: the top bits of a random-number generator are more random than the bottom bits on some algorithms, but as you're using random() rather than rand() I think it doesn't matter
19:51:56 <ais523> AnMaster: all the compiler hints, defines for several different sorts of inlining, and so on
19:52:17 <ais523> and restrict on function args, which I've never seen in a serious program before, which is surprising because it really ought to be used more often
19:52:34 <AnMaster> ais523, see memcpy prototype in system headers
19:52:41 <tusho> ais523: have you seen the posix_ stuff he uses?
19:52:57 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I know, memcpy's pretty much the stock example for restrict
19:52:59 <tusho> i just don't know what kind of state of mind he has when coding a _befunge interpreter_, but I think it might involve illegal substances
19:53:20 <ais523> tusho: there's nothing wrong with hideously overengineering a Funge interp, in fact that seems to me to be part of the point
19:53:27 <tusho> ais523: it's not a funge interp
19:53:29 <tusho> it just does befunge
19:53:37 <tusho> which surprises me considering the rest of it
19:53:43 <ais523> at least, it would likely be simple to change
19:53:55 <AnMaster> but simply removing some instructions
19:54:27 <AnMaster> actually just change | v ^ w and a few more to reflect and you got unefunge, a small change in the loading routine too
19:54:29 <ais523> AnMaster: well, you have to alter how many things are popped for certain instructions which pop vectors
19:54:44 <ais523> no, not that hard at all
19:54:57 <AnMaster> ais523, as almost all things that pop vectors pop a fungeVector *
19:55:11 <ais523> the main complication with merging cfunge and C-INTERCAL strikes me as being identifier clashes
19:55:20 <AnMaster> ais523, ORTH fingerprint is an exception
19:55:31 <ais523> I think that could be avoided by catting together all the files that make up cfunge and staticing all the variables, but I'm not sure
19:55:39 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? well it wasn't coded to avoid name space clashes
19:55:49 <AnMaster> and well you will need some more compiler hints
19:56:02 <ais523> if it were just a single file, then that could be avoided by file-scoping all the variables
19:56:09 * ais523 thinks C needs a directory scope
19:56:24 <AnMaster> ais523, well doesn't intercal always use ick_ prefix?
19:56:29 <AnMaster> as far as I know I don't use that
19:56:32 <ais523> AnMaster: in publically visible identifiers, yes
19:56:53 <ais523> but I'm thinking of the idea of using C-INTERCAL as glue to link a C program to a befunge program
19:57:04 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway catting together all would have some downsides
19:57:23 <AnMaster> like patches to upstream would be a hell
19:57:27 <ais523> oh dear, I expected that
19:57:28 <AnMaster> same for updating to newer version
19:57:33 <ais523> I was actually thinking about catting with a script
19:57:45 <ais523> but then filescoping the variables could be difficult
19:57:55 <ais523> pikhq: what are you referring to with your question?
19:58:04 <ais523> AnMaster: I haven't tried to run it yet, I'm just browsing the source
19:58:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I know it works with gcc -combie
19:58:10 <pikhq> Is there an INTERCAL implementation of Befunge or something?
19:58:14 <AnMaster> because I have done gcc combine
19:58:26 <AnMaster> ais523, HOWEVER there may be clashing static variables inside the current files
19:58:33 <ais523> pikhq: no, but C-INTERCAL has an ffi to C, and I'm working with AnMaster to give it an ffi to Befunge
19:58:49 <ais523> using AnMaster's cfunge interp combined with a modified version of the C ffi
19:59:11 <AnMaster> ais523, and as you can see I even use doxygen in a lot of places
19:59:22 <ais523> hmm... one thing I'd like to do at some point is change the C-INTERCAL libraries from statically linked to dynamically linked
19:59:28 <AnMaster> that was mainly to make 3rd party fingerprints easier
19:59:34 <ais523> then yuk could just be a shared object, and cfunge could be too
20:00:05 <AnMaster> ais523, that could work, but you would need some compiler hints, __attribute__((visibility("hidden")) and such
20:00:15 <AnMaster> ais523, as for the __attribute__ defines there is a very simple reason
20:00:24 <AnMaster> doxygen puked if I didn't do it that way
20:00:41 <AnMaster> it thought __attribute__((printf,blah)) was a function prototype
20:00:47 <ais523> can you define the __attribute__ away for non-gcc compilers, or does it fail if you don't?
20:01:10 <AnMaster> I did just define it away before
20:01:29 <ais523> what does visibility do?
20:01:35 <ais523> I know next to nothing about shared objects
20:01:44 <AnMaster> ais523, make sure a symbol isn't exported dynamically
20:01:45 <ais523> I made some DLLs in Windows once, but that's about it
20:02:08 <AnMaster> and windows dlls are very different
20:02:10 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, that's pretty much what I was looking to do here
20:02:17 <ais523> avoid name clashes when importing the library
20:02:25 <AnMaster> ais523, HOWEVER visibility is gcc specific
20:02:27 <ais523> in this case between the C code and the cfunge code
20:02:31 <AnMaster> you could use a linker script too iirc
20:02:46 <AnMaster> but that is also pretty non-portable
20:02:59 <AnMaster> and cfunge already uses static where it can more or less
20:03:20 <ais523> well, the ffi requires gcc at the moment
20:03:26 <AnMaster> I got no idea what you need to export
20:03:28 <ais523> because I rely on some of the details of how its preprocessor works
20:03:50 <ais523> so am I, for most things
20:03:53 <AnMaster> I just offer advantages when gcc is used
20:04:00 <AnMaster> but everything works as long as it isn't windows
20:04:14 <ais523> but to prevent having to parse C, my ffi-to-C relies on the preprocessor being reinvokable
20:04:15 <AnMaster> (see instructions/sysinfo.c for some funny windows #defines)
20:04:30 <ais523> that is, that it's possible to run the preprocessor over already-preprocessed files without issues
20:04:49 * ais523 wonders what happens if an ffi'd file has a #error directive in it
20:05:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well as far as I can see you just need to export a few functions. all of them probably custom written to call existing functions?
20:05:59 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's the idea
20:06:14 <ais523> let me check ick_ec.h to see how many functions might be needed
20:06:20 <AnMaster> ais523, as for the funge-space.c, everything except the public interface (funge-space.h) may change dramatically, without prior notice
20:06:56 <AnMaster> fii = the next generation of wii!
20:06:58 <Sgeo> On Fark, Firefox being generally nonresponsive
20:07:34 <ais523> let's see, I think cfunge may only actually need to expose one function
20:07:45 <ais523> which follows my C-INTERCAL ffi API
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20:08:01 <ais523> but it'll have to use a lot more than one function
20:08:24 <Sgeo> Google unhelpful
20:08:37 <ais523> you're using Boehm, so I don't have to worry about memory deallocation when arbitrarily obliterating bits of stack
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20:08:47 <ais523> all funge-space updates are atomic, right?
20:09:04 <oerjan> nuclear explosions, every one
20:09:08 <ais523> well, say you start running a custom fingerprint command
20:09:22 <ais523> is it true that before the command runs, fungespace is completely up-to-date
20:09:25 <AnMaster> <ais523> you're using Boehm, so I don't have to worry about memory deallocation when arbitrarily obliterating bits of stack <-- um
20:09:44 <AnMaster> because of the issues it cause with portability
20:09:48 <ais523> and that nothing will go wrong if I decide to longjmp downwards
20:10:01 <AnMaster> <ais523> is it true that before the command runs, fungespace is completely up-to-date <-- well I think so
20:10:10 <AnMaster> maybe if the CPU got write-through cache or whatever
20:10:16 <ais523> AnMaster: that's not an issue here
20:10:23 <ais523> because it'll be sequenced
20:10:30 <ais523> I won't try to do INTERCAL + concurrent Funge
20:10:34 <augur> george carlin died :(
20:10:44 <AnMaster> ais523, well even with concurrent funge that shouldn't be an issue
20:10:46 <ais523> due to the problem that Claudio observed in C-INTERCAL
20:11:13 <ais523> it was something like "This error occurs when you were trying to merge together two multithreaded programs, and the interpreter couldn't decide which thread in one program should connect to which thread in the other"
20:11:18 <AnMaster> that is not how concurrent funge works in the specs
20:11:28 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I know, INTERCAL threading's similar
20:11:42 <ais523> but I can't do ffi and INTERCAL threading simultaneously, because setjmp isn't call/cc
20:12:00 <ais523> it won't jump up the stack, only down
20:12:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I think setjmp is horrible hack but oh well
20:12:40 <ais523> still, I think probably the craziest thing I'm likely to do is to reinvoke the interp from inside a fingerprint, then longjmp down from the nested version of the interp to the original
20:12:51 <AnMaster> ais523, "reinvoke the interp from inside a fingerprint"
20:12:54 <ais523> AnMaster: C setjmp == INTERCAL FORGET, almost exactly
20:13:03 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's why I was looking at the code so carefully
20:13:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well funge space is a static variable
20:13:21 <ais523> because everything's either a global or stored in the IP object
20:13:41 <ais523> although I don't think it'll be possible to link to more than one Befunge program at once without duplicating cfunge
20:13:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and note that funge-space.c is likely to be totally changed quite soon (this summer) to use some other, faster, hash library. As that is the bottle neck currently
20:14:08 <AnMaster> just I lack the knowledge for it really
20:14:26 <AnMaster> the public interface will be the same
20:14:37 <AnMaster> and adding a "load from string" shouldn't be that hard
20:14:43 <AnMaster> heck it would be easier than load from file
20:14:57 <ais523> AnMaster: as for performance, one thing I need to optimise is searching for a particular character in Funge-space
20:15:06 <ais523> actually, that could cause issues of its own
20:15:20 <ais523> if someone happens to store an M in fungespace using p/g for its ASCII value, rather than as a command
20:15:28 <ais523> Befunge is not known for being COME FROM-friendly
20:16:46 <ais523> well, what I'm planning at the moment for semantics:
20:16:59 <ais523> there is a character M, for a Marker, which specifies where communications with INTERCAL happen
20:17:15 <ais523> basically from each direction from the M, you have a Befunge program
20:17:17 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you plan to load it?
20:17:27 <ais523> AnMaster: probably a string literal
20:18:08 <AnMaster> ais523, pretty simple if you just load it once (see FungeSpaceLoad(), and make a variat)
20:18:32 <ais523> yes, loading is unlikely to be the hard part
20:18:37 <AnMaster> or if you plan to load more than one you probably want a variant of the less optimized FungeSpaceLoadAtOffset()
20:18:53 <ais523> anyway, the idea is that there is a subprogram from M in each direction
20:19:01 <ais523> it terminates at another fingerprint character
20:19:14 <ais523> so you can do, say >M to close the M off from the left
20:19:29 <AnMaster> or a funge string with M in it
20:19:42 <ais523> AnMaster: the first problem's just a typical fingerprint clash
20:19:50 <ais523> the second I haven't thought of a good solution to
20:20:02 <AnMaster> ais523, ROMA defines an M instruction
20:20:14 <AnMaster> if you search for M then you will have issues I think?
20:20:17 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but fingerprints clash sometimes, the INTERCAL program will have its own fingerprint defining M
20:20:27 <ais523> but searching could be an issue
20:20:33 <ais523> maybe I should instead use a nonexistent character
20:20:42 <ais523> that's remembered by coordinates
20:20:44 <AnMaster> anything non-printable will work
20:20:53 <ais523> AnMaster: no, because of p and g being used to store numbers
20:21:17 <ais523> I'm not sure how to represent a nonexistent character in the source, though
20:21:23 <ais523> hmm... this is harder than I thought
20:21:54 <augur> william moseley = HOT
20:22:15 <ais523> maybe write the source in some rich-text format, and the marker is a bold M
20:22:30 <AnMaster> ais523, btw fingerprint spec file format docs are in doc/somewhere iirc
20:22:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I've read them
20:22:40 <AnMaster> it should be reasonably straight forward
20:22:44 <ais523> doc/* actually because doc only contains one file
20:23:03 <AnMaster> ais523, oh yes it does, I have some more unfinished latex files locally
20:24:44 <AnMaster> fingerprints fingerprintspecformat.txt frontend-prococol.pdf frontend-prococol.tex prot-ideas.txt standard-docs
20:25:02 <AnMaster> fingerprint is my own copies of docs for fingerprints
20:25:28 <AnMaster> dynafing.txt ext_FPSP.txt ext_SCKE.txt ext_SOCK.txt jesseexts.txt rcfunge.html
20:25:28 <ais523> I'm careful with copyright too
20:25:40 <ais523> at one point I even emailed Debian to ask them the copyright on the C-INTERCAL man page they wrote
20:25:48 <AnMaster> ais523, and what did they say?
20:25:56 <AnMaster> they are mad with it too so...
20:26:07 <ais523> AnMaster: they said that it was GPL2, like the rest of the distribution
20:26:25 <AnMaster> ais523, note that cfunge is *GPL3*
20:26:42 <ais523> I have no problems linking to GPL3 libraries frm a GPL2+ program, it just produces a GPL3 result
20:27:04 <ais523> I have no problems distributing GPL3 sources and GPL2 sources in the same tarball either, with a linker script that links them together
20:27:30 <ais523> actually, I inherited GPL2+ as the licence
20:27:34 <ais523> but there was no real reason to change it
20:28:15 <AnMaster> ais523, basically I don't trust GNU
20:28:21 <ais523> that's still linkable-against
20:28:29 <ais523> I'll have to ask you for an update if and when GPL4 comes out
20:28:33 <ais523> but until then, no problems
20:28:40 <tusho> AnMaster: gpl3 is madness
20:28:48 <AnMaster> tusho, well that is questionable
20:28:56 <AnMaster> I certainly agree it is a bit on the long side
20:29:05 <tusho> it's not the length that worries me!
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20:30:05 <ais523> I understand what everything's in there for, I think
20:30:16 <ais523> and the GPL3 looks good to me at furthering the aims of the GPL
20:30:23 <ais523> I'm not convinced that tusho agrees with the aims of the GPL, though
20:30:40 <tusho> 'not convinced'? Awesome understatement :-P
20:30:42 <ais523> that's not necessarily a bad thing
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20:31:17 <lament> GPL literally caused more deaths than the Indonesian tsunami
20:31:21 <Slereah2> NEVER HAVE I BEEN MORE FURIOUS OR ORANGE
20:31:31 <ais523> lament: really? Pics or it didn't happen
20:32:27 <ais523> Slereah2: what are you furious at?
20:32:27 <Slereah2> My grand mother was killed by the GPL.
20:32:52 <lament> ais523: look, they killed thousands of free software users and one jew: http://www.mideastweb.org/coffins2.jpg
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20:33:35 <ais523> lament: tusho: please, I was having an interesting conversation with AnMaster before this got into an argument about the GPL
20:33:44 <tusho> ais523: actually I find this rather funny
20:33:51 <Slereah2> What was the interesting conversation?
20:33:52 <tusho> but, we can multi-converse
20:34:01 <ais523> Slereah2: we were discussing linking Befunge and INTERCAL
20:34:14 <Slereah2> Ah yes, the interfuge business.
20:34:25 <ais523> actually, interfunge is a Befunge-93 interp written in INTERCAL
20:34:30 <ais523> which is in the C-INTERCAL distributions
20:34:34 <ais523> that name's already taken
20:34:51 <ais523> AnMaster: I actually kind of like that
20:35:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it got one f too many
20:35:10 <ais523> but I haven't named the INTERCAL <-> C ffi yet
20:35:19 <ais523> I just call it "external calls to C" in the C-INTERCAL docs
20:35:32 <ais523> likewise "external calls to Befunge" is likely the name I'll use in the docs for that
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20:35:49 <ais523> I think I liked fffungi better
20:36:23 <AnMaster> SimonRC, to make it looks like spiffy
20:36:44 <ais523> AnMaster: why did you just mention SimonRC? typo on tab-complete?
20:36:54 <AnMaster> a and s are next to each other
20:37:23 <ais523> yes, I'd guessed a vs. s, I hadn't realised about the is though
20:37:46 <ais523> is was the plural of i in my last statement
20:38:10 <AnMaster> btw hot in here, will be back with a fan shortly
20:39:32 <oerjan> here it is raining - and this is supposedly _the_ day of the year for bonfires in norway
20:39:48 <ais523> so, the problem still remains of how to do COME FROM in Befunge
20:39:56 <ais523> whilst still being able to use g and p, and string literals
20:41:06 <AnMaster> ais523, why not use out of band data?
20:41:17 <AnMaster> seems only sane solution to me
20:41:19 <ais523> I was thinking along those lines myself
20:41:27 <ais523> the problem then is how to specify it in the source
20:41:48 <ais523> well, you still need to be able to represent the data in text form
20:41:57 <ais523> so that you can actually write a ComeFromFunge program
20:42:27 <ais523> #esoteric: there are enough ingenious esoprogrammers here, surely someone can think up a good way to do COME FROM in Funge-98
20:42:27 <AnMaster> ais523, you want to add new come from points at runtime?
20:42:34 <ais523> AnMaster: of course, or it wouldn't be Befunge
20:42:46 <AnMaster> ais523, a fingerprint with two instructions
20:42:58 <AnMaster> X = register new come frome point
20:43:13 <AnMaster> change the chars to better ones
20:43:20 <ais523> yes, that's what I concluded for modifying the out-of-band data
20:43:43 <ais523> what about initially specifying the locations?
20:43:56 <AnMaster> ais523, not sure how do plan to include funge source in the intercal source
20:44:10 * oerjan is reminded of Lisp's variable vs. function contents
20:44:12 <AnMaster> as a separate file? or in-band data?
20:44:13 <ais523> AnMaster: by linking a .i file to a .b98 file
20:44:28 <ais523> just like I link .i and .c files at current
20:44:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well cfunge is happy to run befunge93 too
20:44:54 * AnMaster is still working on that standard
20:45:02 <ais523> AnMaster: heh, Unix year naming
20:45:08 <ais523> years-since-epoch and all that
20:45:11 <AnMaster> ais523, by request of author yes
20:45:24 <AnMaster> that is by request of original author
20:45:27 <ais523> that's the format that the relevant syscall returns in IIRC
20:46:47 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway for intitial data, maybe specify it in the intercal file in some way?
20:46:57 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of collection of Y2K buggy year printing routines... They worked correctly for 1910-1999, but try 2000 and they blew up nicely...
20:47:00 <ais523> AnMaster: yuck, that's not a good way to do it
20:47:16 <ais523> Ilari: some websites think the year's 19108 right now
20:47:27 <ais523> AnMaster: the debugger's actually called yuk
20:47:32 <ais523> but much the same name
20:47:46 <Ilari> ais523: Let's say that some of those routines printed stuff much more bizarre than that...
20:47:57 <ais523> Ilari: I wouldn't be surprised
20:47:57 <AnMaster> ais523, or maybe specify that you will start at 42,42 and run to end of line, allowing to set initial breakpoints
20:48:04 <ais523> Windows 3.1 file manager would print the year as 19:8
20:48:33 <ais523> AnMaster: '9'+1==':' in C and ASCII
20:48:46 <Ilari> IIRC, one that would print 2008 as 19:8 was among those routines...
20:49:14 <ais523> Ilari: how many of them hardcoded the 19?
20:49:47 <ais523> and do you have a link?
20:52:29 <Ilari> Nope, no link. But I found the code...
20:52:39 <pikhq> ais523: Not always.
20:52:47 <pikhq> C doesn't specify the character set in use.
20:52:58 <ais523> pikhq: I know, did that lead to trouble?
20:52:58 <pikhq> Some ISO C environments use EBDIC.
20:53:05 <ais523> it does specify that 0-9 are in order, though
20:53:19 <ais523> and that's why I specifically mentioned ASCII in my comment above
20:53:35 <ais523> incidentally, a-f also are in order in EBCDIC
20:54:37 <ais523> AnMaster: the letters form a little rectangle on a 16x16 character set IIRC
20:54:37 <Ilari> There are apparently a lot of them that actually try to display dates in 21st century, but get it wrong...
20:56:05 <AnMaster> printf ("%d", 1900 + unix_style_date);
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20:56:38 <pikhq> You're right. It's not hard to fuck up.
20:56:42 <AnMaster> apart from printing "-32" instead of "32 BC" that will handle it fine
20:57:14 <AnMaster> printf ("19%d", unix_style_date); is just stupid
20:57:37 <AnMaster> actually I'm getting infected by GNU! EWW
20:57:42 <AnMaster> printf("19%d", unix_style_date); is just stupid
20:57:42 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, it'll print "-31" instead of "32 BC"
20:58:04 <AnMaster> no space between the printf and the (
20:58:11 <pikhq> Depending upon how your signing goes.
20:58:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I generally adapt the parens on functions and ifs to the surrounding code
20:58:26 <pikhq> One's complement? Two's complement? ;)
20:58:34 <ais523> but leave no space on either if I'm writing the code from scratch
20:58:51 <ais523> AnMaster: because there was no year 0
20:59:41 <AnMaster> NORMALLY computers doesn't have to handle such numbers
21:00:05 <ais523> computers don't like our date system, really
21:00:08 <ais523> because it makes no sense
21:00:21 <ais523> at least, not to a computer
21:00:44 <AnMaster> well it is related to the moon, the year and the day
21:02:05 <Ilari> Some of the most bizarre stuff for '2008': 198, 19<some unprintable char>8, 19E6, 194294967256, 1965496, 19216, '19,0', 19-40, 2108, 3908, 4008, 20<some unprintable char>8, 216, 2116, 2216, 20E6, 4294967256, 1860, 1960, 204294967256, -40, 20-40.
21:02:39 * ais523 would be amused at 2.008e3
21:02:51 -!- pikhq has left (?).
21:03:56 <Ilari> AnMaster: Maybe I put it online somewhere after cleaning it up a bit...
21:04:38 <AnMaster> that I think should be the most likely mistake to make
21:04:49 <Ilari> AnMaster: Of course.
21:05:08 <AnMaster> Ilari, I like to see the code that cause these errors
21:08:19 <Ilari> The 19E6 code was follows: Suppose that year routine returns 1999 as 99 but 2000 as 2000 (yes, such things exist). Store the return into uchar and print '19['0'+year/10][year%10]'.
21:09:19 <ais523> well, 4294967296 is (unsigned)-40
21:09:24 <ais523> that could explain that to some extent
21:09:37 <AnMaster> ais523, -40 makes no sense still
21:09:37 <ais523> s/4294967296/4294967256/
21:09:51 <Ilari> There also was 20E6 (which was just code that chooses century part right).
21:10:04 <ais523> and I'm enough of an INTERCAL programmer to be able to do that in my head
21:10:05 <Ilari> 2008 = -40 (mod 256).
21:10:34 <ais523> Ilari: oh, yes, that would explain it
21:10:36 <Ilari> (sorry too lazy to get that triple-line sign, as congruences should have).
21:10:57 <ais523> you could always write it as ===
21:12:59 <tusho> ≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡
21:13:33 <AnMaster> I never understood the point of it
21:13:44 <ais523> AnMaster: congruence vs. equality
21:14:00 <ais523> the triple-bar bascially implies equivalence under a certain relation
21:14:01 <Ilari> The standard notation for congruences has that ≡ symbol...
21:14:06 <ais523> even though the two things can be different
21:14:19 <ais523> e.g. -40 is not 2008 but they both end with the same 8 bits
21:14:42 <Ilari> Actually, have same remainder when divided by 266...
21:15:50 <Sgeo> I thought triple was for identities?
21:15:52 <Ilari> Oops, should be 256.
21:16:07 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea for initial fffungi come from points?
21:16:11 <ais523> Sgeo: it often is in programming languages, but not in maths
21:16:16 <AnMaster> what about my idea about "run initial line"?
21:16:32 <ais523> AnMaster: well, a simple heuristic would be to look for M with three arrowhead commands pointing into it
21:16:35 <ais523> but that's a bit fragile
21:17:07 <AnMaster> ais523, look for ascii art of a T-Rex? ;)
21:17:09 <Sgeo> So why do I remember the book I learned Algebra from, Algebra the Easy Way, saying something about identities like 4x ≡ x + x + x + x using the triple bar thing?
21:17:26 <ais523> Sgeo: there, the triple-bar is meaning always equals
21:17:29 <ais523> rather than just equals
21:18:02 <ais523> AnMaster: you'd have to invent your own operator for that
21:18:12 <ais523> e.g. temperature ?=? 30oC
21:18:26 <ais523> AnMaster: well, seeing as I'm programming custom operators
21:18:29 <ais523> it can have one if you want
21:18:37 <AnMaster> ais523, does it have sensor interface?
21:18:45 <ais523> AnMaster: it has ffi to C
21:18:48 <ais523> which can have a sensor interface
21:19:04 <AnMaster> ais523, you said boehm-gc? note that I sometimes use normal malloc still
21:19:17 <Ilari> Like 'sometimes equals' in x^4-128x^3-1920x^2-63488x-1048544=0...
21:19:19 <AnMaster> and I'm deciding boehm-gc is not recommended
21:19:27 <ais523> anyway, the legal names for custom INTERCAL operators are punctuation marks that aren't used for anything else, lowercase letters, and any overstrike of exactly two characters which wasn't used otherwise
21:19:59 <Sgeo> Google is unhelpful
21:20:32 <ais523> Sgeo: foreign function interface
21:20:41 <AnMaster> 2. Foreign function interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
21:20:41 <AnMaster> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Jump to: navigation, search. A foreign function interface (or FFI) is a mechanism by which a program written in one ...
21:20:41 <AnMaster> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_function_interface - 27k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter - History
21:20:41 <AnMaster> More results from en.wikipedia.org »
21:21:00 <ais523> anyway, the reason I'm talking about memory allocation is to do with FORGET commands
21:21:08 <ais523> which were the hardest to implement in C
21:21:26 <ais523> it allows you to return from a function other than the one you're in
21:21:41 <ais523> e.g. function a calls function b, function b forgets, then it returns from function a
21:21:54 <ais523> that's existed since INTERCAL-72
21:22:08 <AnMaster> so basically "mess with call stack"?
21:22:11 <ais523> when FORGET, or the version of RESUME that's sugar for it, was the only way to do a conditional jump
21:22:15 <ais523> so yes, "mess with call stack
21:22:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well if you do that and cause strange bugs in cfunge users should report the errors to you not me
21:22:51 <ais523> but the issue here is that if function a does mallocing, then it won't get to free its data
21:22:55 <ais523> because the second half never runs
21:23:03 <ais523> (btw now probably you see why I was using setjmp_
21:23:07 <AnMaster> ais523, oh yes that does happen
21:23:37 <tusho> THE VIBRANT CFUNGE COMMUNITY
21:24:31 <AnMaster> I assume there is some vibrant intercal community?
21:24:40 <ais523> AnMaster: not exactly vibrant, but chugging along
21:24:47 <ais523> I normally get patches after each new release
21:24:54 <ais523> often for older features that people are used to, though
21:24:55 <AnMaster> actually I ask that all bugs in fffungi should first go to you
21:25:01 <ais523> AnMaster: that makes sense
21:25:11 <AnMaster> to verfiy they actually *are* related to my code before I get it
21:25:24 <ais523> well, I doubt they'll be related to your code
21:25:25 <AnMaster> after all you seem to plan to do some pretty strange thing
21:25:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't say that my code is bug free
21:25:53 <ais523> well, no, but it's likely to be bugfree compared to C-INTERCAL
21:26:41 <AnMaster> ais523, and anything messing with call stack or such that in my book goes under "compiler internals, don't touch" well... I don't "support" that
21:27:03 <AnMaster> setjmp is included in that book as a "don't do!"
21:27:14 <AnMaster> but don't expect me to like that part
21:27:26 <ais523> but C wasn't really designed for FORGET
21:27:34 <ais523> I'm actually surprised at how well it handles COME FROM
21:27:56 * Sgeo should learn INTERCAL at some point
21:27:57 <ais523> AnMaster: at the cost of clobbering all the auto variables in the function because it basically has to exit and reinvoke it
21:30:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it makes sense when you're COMING FROM one function into another
21:30:08 <ais523> what possible valuse could the auto variables have?
21:30:09 <AnMaster> ais523, my code do use variable sized arrays
21:30:23 <ais523> ah, that could cause issues
21:30:33 <AnMaster> and structs with variable size
21:30:35 <ais523> I think they work if I put wrapper functions around them
21:30:41 <ais523> variable size structs will be fine
21:30:41 <AnMaster> as in an array at the end of the struct
21:30:47 <ais523> because you never put them on the stack, right
21:30:58 <AnMaster> I do put *some* structs on stack
21:31:07 <ais523> yes, but variable-length struct on stack makes no sense
21:31:11 <ais523> it just wouldn't work in C
21:31:30 <AnMaster> ais523, however on amd64 I think that struct *may* be returned in a register
21:31:55 <ais523> if it fits in a register that's no problem
21:32:12 <AnMaster> yes but on x86 it is definitely on the stack
21:32:32 <AnMaster> with is just two 32- or 64-bit values
21:32:44 <ais523> stack vs. register doesn't really matter
21:32:51 <ais523> if you're FORGETTING you're clobbering everything anyway
21:32:53 <ais523> that's sort of the point
21:33:09 <ais523> luckily, at least the IP is known after all INTERCAL mess-about-with-things instructions...
21:33:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well could have memory leaks I guess
21:33:52 <ais523> AnMaster: C-INTERCAL leaks like a sieve anyway, I've tried to patch some of the holes but it's like trying to patch a sieve one hole at a time
21:34:09 <AnMaster> unmodified cfunge is valgrind clean (well except it doesn't free the copies of the argc/argv, but those are allocated at the start and then "still reachable")
21:34:46 <AnMaster> ais523, if compiled as RELEASE cfunge will have some non-dangerous small "still reachable"
21:35:05 <AnMaster> as it doesn't free on exit then
21:35:17 <AnMaster> in debug build it will free almost everything at exit
21:36:00 <AnMaster> ais523, there are however *no* valgrind errors :)
21:36:18 <AnMaster> I have done fuzz testing to ensure that
21:36:28 <AnMaster> ais523, there may be in the "unsafe instructions"
21:36:37 <AnMaster> because they are harder to fuzz test safely
21:36:43 <AnMaster> I used sandbox mode when fuzz testing
21:36:57 <AnMaster> but they won't leak during normal operation
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21:50:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well I wish you good luck
21:50:42 <AnMaster> also befunge doesn't have real functions
21:50:46 <ais523> especially in the external calls and multithreading area
21:50:50 <ais523> and neither does INTERCAL
21:51:02 <ais523> it uses NEXTing, which is like a cross between a function call and a GOTO
21:51:07 <ais523> basically, it's GOSUB from BASIC
21:51:37 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and cfunge gives more or less sane errors/warnings
21:51:56 <ais523> INTERCAL's warnings and errors are sane, just the messages are funky
21:52:05 <ais523> but I'm complying with host language errors for the ffi
21:52:07 <AnMaster> well cfunge's messages are sane
21:52:08 <ais523> e.g. you get C errors in C code
21:52:09 <AnMaster> actually... cfunge doesn't give errors
21:52:18 <ais523> well, it reflects on error
21:52:20 <ais523> that's what Funge does
21:52:40 * ais523 reckons that that's bound to end up in an infinite loop at some point for some program, but whatever
21:52:40 <AnMaster> well there is the "hopeless out of memory error case"
21:52:56 <ais523> YOU HAVE TOO MUCH ROPE TO HANG YOURSELF
21:53:08 <AnMaster> well for cfunge it only happens in stack code
21:53:32 <ais523> yes, in INTERCAL it could happen in threading, memory allocation, or I/O
21:54:14 <AnMaster> ais523, it could also happen elsewhere
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21:54:26 <AnMaster> except I don't think it may always handle it gracefully
21:54:37 <ais523> well, I don't think OOM's all that graceful in C-INTERCAL
21:54:40 <ais523> it wasn't before I got to it
21:54:44 <AnMaster> I think it may call abort() in one case
21:54:49 <ais523> I think programs handle OOM pretty well now, but the compiler probably doesn't
21:55:11 <AnMaster> ais523, OOM isn't very likely these days
21:55:23 <ais523> no, especially on Linux, you get the oom-killer instead
21:55:39 <ais523> PIC-Intercal uses entirely static memory
21:55:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I only got that once, but I have 1.5 GB ram
21:55:44 <Ilari> Also, some really crazy allocation requests may fail...
21:55:59 <AnMaster> so I will be warned before it actually happens
21:56:03 <ais523> well, when I tried putting a ulimit on the compile process, it caused problems on Itanium, apparently
21:56:13 <ais523> where the compiler used massive amounts of memory
21:56:18 <ais523> the ulimit itself was to avoid swapping
21:56:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well Itanium is unusual in that aspect
21:56:41 <ais523> anyway, in the end I adopted the fix of splitting idiotism.c into a huge number of smaller files
21:56:48 <ais523> and I know why Itanium might use lots of memory
21:57:08 <AnMaster> compiler needs to do scheduling
21:57:22 <ais523> it seems that there are 14 output files from idiotism.oil at the moment
21:57:27 <ais523> I get the OIL compiler to autosplit them
21:57:48 <AnMaster> ais523, this was done after last release?
21:57:49 <ais523> however currently I compile them using wildcards in the call to gcc
21:58:07 <AnMaster> ais523, will you use 32-bit or 64-bit cfunge?
21:58:12 <ais523> AnMaster: probably 32-bit
21:58:18 <ais523> because INTERCAL's 32-bit
21:58:25 <ais523> as in, the language itself
21:58:44 <ais523> variables are limited to 32 bits
21:58:50 <ais523> constants are limited to 16 bits just to be annoying
21:59:15 <AnMaster> see global.h and CMakeLists.txt
21:59:57 <AnMaster> ais523, well *input program* to cfunge is 8 bit (file of char*), but at runtimes the cell are larger
22:00:09 <ais523> most files are stored 8-bit
22:00:25 <ais523> although if you input UTF-16 or UTF-32, you might be able to load more directly
22:00:35 <AnMaster> ais523, also note that cfunge won't compile under MSVC, I tried
22:00:42 <AnMaster> it did compile under mingw in the end
22:00:49 <ais523> what went wrong under MSVC?
22:00:50 <Ilari> Hmm... CLC-INTERCAL description says it supports quantum computation? Quantum INTERCAL or what?
22:00:52 <AnMaster> after a lot of heavy work and stubbing out stuff
22:00:59 <AnMaster> ais523, MSVC doesn't support C99 basically
22:00:59 <ais523> Ilari: apparently it's a threading model
22:01:14 <ais523> all it does is just run two versions of the program in parallel
22:01:22 <ais523> with one datum being different between them
22:01:25 <ais523> it's a bit of a cheat really
22:02:24 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge is heavy with C99 code
22:02:41 <AnMaster> it is non-trivial to convert to C89
22:02:43 <ais523> but nobody's impemented it, pretty much
22:02:56 <ais523> AnMaster: some things are trivial, like restrict
22:03:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well stuff like: & (fungeVector) { .x = 5, .y = 2 };
22:03:14 <ais523> and the struct hack generally works by coincidence in C89 compilers with a slight syntax change
22:03:27 <ais523> but things like VLAs have problems
22:03:38 <ais523> as for structure literals, I imagine there's some way to hack around that
22:03:46 <ais523> probably using helper functions
22:03:51 <AnMaster> #define VectorCreateRef(a, b) (& (fungeVector) { .x = (a), .y = (b) })
22:03:59 <AnMaster> there are also some other variants of it
22:04:36 <AnMaster> + you need to move up from for (int i = 0; ...) to int i; for (i = 0 ...)
22:04:45 -!- mckiko has quit.
22:05:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also I did test it on win32 before, some fingerprints have to be ifdefed out, oh and one of the header files clash with what is already used by the win32 api in name
22:05:57 <AnMaster> also it was a few versions ago
22:06:04 <ais523> VectorCreateRef could be functionised relatively easily, I think, if you had garbage collection
22:06:11 <ais523> but an API name clash strikes me as unusual
22:06:22 <ais523> presumably that happens becaues they put everything in windows.h
22:06:32 <ais523> rather than splitting it into separate headers for namespacing purposes
22:06:35 <AnMaster> it couldn't find another header named io.h
22:06:43 -!- caio has quit ("Leaving").
22:06:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it was a header file name clash
22:06:52 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what <> vs. "" is for, surely?
22:06:59 <ais523> it would be #include <io.h>
22:07:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't care about the other io.h
22:07:28 <AnMaster> but somehow my io.h ended up in the include path before
22:07:45 <AnMaster> because some header I used wanted to include the system io.h
22:07:55 <AnMaster> ais523, probably a build system issue
22:08:13 <ais523> well, I put my headers in the -I include path in C-INTERCAL
22:08:14 <AnMaster> and I don't think you will use my build system anyway
22:08:22 <ais523> because they aren't in the standard library
22:08:41 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway a real issue: I will drop boehm-gc in future
22:08:46 <ais523> but my perfect way of using C-INTERCAL + cfunge would be just a wrapper that links to cfunge
22:08:52 <ais523> AnMaster: where do you allocate memory?
22:09:02 <ais523> and when will you free it?
22:09:03 <AnMaster> ais523, malloc()/calloc() in future
22:09:15 <ais523> as in, what part of your program
22:09:21 <ais523> do you allocate memory every command?
22:09:21 <AnMaster> I ususally free "when I'm done with it"
22:09:25 <ais523> do you only allocate on the stack?
22:09:33 <AnMaster> ais523, for most stuff I don't need to allocate
22:09:43 <AnMaster> and stack is allocated in chunks
22:09:56 <ais523> yes, I'm wondering what needs allocation
22:09:57 <ais523> fungespace and stack are both fine
22:09:59 <ais523> is there anything else?
22:10:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well some stuff malloc for popping strings from funge stack and such
22:10:32 <ais523> AnMaster: does it free before the command's finished?
22:10:49 <AnMaster> ais523, if it doesn't need it later then yess
22:10:54 <AnMaster> grep -RE 'malloc|free|calloc|realloc' src
22:11:08 <AnMaster> ais523, some fingerprints alloc and put in a static array
22:11:09 <ais523> not really used to cfunge yet
22:11:14 <ais523> AnMaster: static is always fine
22:11:32 <ais523> that doesn't interact with stupid stack tricks at all
22:11:44 <AnMaster> ais523, the main() function allocs some stuff into a global (well strdup in fact) that it never frees
22:12:13 <ais523> again, not an issue, I don't think
22:12:28 <ais523> because cfunge will be loaded exactly once in a run of the program
22:12:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't really answer your questions about "does it do anything that will fuck up with stack tricks" because I'm an innocent and clean C programmer that got no idea what those tricks are!
22:12:54 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway those strdup and such are for copying argv as needed
22:13:01 <ais523> that won't cause issues
22:13:05 <AnMaster> for later use in y instruction
22:13:18 <ais523> actually, I wrote a chapter in the documentation about the effect the stupid stack tricks had on programs
22:13:21 <ais523> I'll try to find a link
22:14:18 <ais523> ugh, the link's gone dead, I'll mirror it on eso-std.org
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22:16:50 <ais523> http://eso-std.org/~ais523/c-intercal-docs/n0kl5548.htm#External-Calls-and-auto
22:17:09 <ais523> I just got that up, I'll look for a more permanent place to put it later
22:17:44 <AnMaster> also patches upstream should be minimal, follow existing indention/coding style and *be clean C*
22:18:03 <ais523> ideally it would require no upstream patching at all
22:18:13 <AnMaster> well if you find bugs I would like patches
22:18:19 <AnMaster> even better than I like bug reports
22:18:25 <ais523> C-INTERCAL uses some gld tricks to delete main()s in the programs it links against
22:18:29 <AnMaster> ais523, also sure you won't do concurrent befunge?
22:18:42 <ais523> AnMaster: concurrency + ffi is confusing in all situations
22:18:48 <AnMaster> ais523, and well cfunge's main is just option parsing really
22:18:54 <ais523> imagine one thread Befunge and one thread INTERCAL proceeding simultaneously
22:19:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well they won't really, will they?
22:19:38 <ais523> well, no, but it would be the only thing that made sense based on the semantics
22:19:41 <ais523> but it's impossible to implement
22:19:45 <AnMaster> ais523, however your C ffi could use pthread couldn't it?
22:19:48 <ais523> that's why I'm not mixing ffi and concurrency
22:19:54 <ais523> and yes, I have been thinking along those lines
22:20:15 <AnMaster> I mean... nothing would stop anyone from using pthread int it
22:20:27 <ais523> AnMaster: I hate to think what breakage that would cause, though
22:20:36 <ais523> it might be interesting, but it's definitely try-at-your-own-risk
22:20:49 <AnMaster> well I don't know enough intercal to try it
22:21:08 <ais523> I can easily write a simple INTERCAL program and a C shell that just runs arbitrary C
22:21:27 <AnMaster> well would be useful for testing with I guess
22:21:51 <ais523> I may have one already as a test, let me check
22:22:09 <Slereah2> It seems all pi-based languages are for Linux.
22:22:11 <AnMaster> is that defined by C standard?
22:22:12 <ais523> Slereah2: deliberate typo, or are you trying to say hello?
22:22:23 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's a common nonstandard extension
22:22:24 <Sgeo> There are pi-based languages?
22:22:27 <ais523> most C compilers implement it
22:22:32 <ais523> but it isn't in the standard
22:22:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I never used it, what does it do actually?
22:23:04 <ais523> AnMaster: allocates memory that's deallocated when the function exits
22:23:31 <AnMaster> ais523, that could cause problems with intercal?
22:23:48 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I worked out the effect that alloca would have on the code
22:23:58 <ais523> one of the reasons it's used is that it plays nicely with longjmp
22:25:13 <Slereah2> But most of them are pretty experimental.
22:25:22 <Slereah2> So it's hard finding compilers and manuals
22:26:44 <AnMaster> "More worrying is probably the fact that the C standard provides a portable method for deleting the stack like that, and in fact the external calls runtime library is written in standard freestanding-legal C89 (with the exception of +printflow debug output which requires a hosted implementation), meaning that in theory it would be possible to split it out to create an implementation of a C-plus-COME-F
22:26:44 <AnMaster> ROM-and-NEXT language, and doing so would not be particularly difficult.)"
22:26:58 <AnMaster> <Slereah2> It seems all pi-based languages are for Linux.
22:27:02 <ais523> AnMaster: longjmp does almost exactly the same as forget
22:27:08 <AnMaster> just run it on your linux/*bsd system?
22:27:13 <ais523> AnMaster: Slereah uses Windows
22:27:55 <AnMaster> ais523, and "longjmp" is definitely in my "don't ever touch that crazy stuff" entry
22:27:57 <ais523> but the chance of having the silly stack tricks being portable freestanding C was too much to pass up
22:28:04 * oerjan hands Slereah2 a flyswatter. To use on AnMaster.
22:28:06 <Sgeo> "Even if you are willing to make more changes to fix it, there is no easy way to do so. "
22:28:09 <Sgeo> http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/libc/Advantages-of-Alloca.html
22:28:19 <AnMaster> -oerjan- VERSION irssi v0.8.10 - running on Linux i686
22:28:20 <Sgeo> I think I see a way to do it without alloca()
22:28:41 <tusho> AnMaster: just because you don't personally use windows doesn't mean you like people going 'lol windows sucks so i wont fix it'
22:28:48 <Sgeo> Although it's a bit ugly
22:29:13 <oerjan> i am actually ssh'ing from Windows to Linux...
22:29:31 <Slereah2> But the dual booting went away when I reinstalled windows
22:29:36 <tusho> oerjan: i salute you
22:29:36 <ais523> well, generally I try to get my programs working on Windows if possible, but not if it involves working around obstacles Microsoft put in my way
22:29:42 <Slereah2> I could reinstall the dual booting
22:29:49 <Slereah2> If my hard drive wasn't broken
22:30:06 <ais523> and I've been known to connect from Windows ssh'd into SunOS
22:30:11 <ais523> simply to be in a UNIXy environment
22:30:12 <AnMaster> ais523, well see instructions/sysinfo.c
22:31:21 <ais523> I think Windows has something vaguely corresponding to it
22:31:24 <ais523> but it's probably a pain to get at
22:31:31 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I couldn't be bothered to mess with the functions it uses instead
22:31:53 <ais523> the Windows API is awful
22:32:00 <AnMaster> ais523, there are a few more, in some of the math fingerprints for example
22:32:23 <ais523> the windows version of fork has infinity times as many parameters and is less powerful
22:32:29 <AnMaster> // Yeah, some systems are *really* crap.
22:32:29 <AnMaster> // This includes Mingw on windows when I tried.
22:32:29 <AnMaster> # define M_PI 3.14159265358979323846
22:32:41 <ais523> ISTR it had 11 params last I tried
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22:33:14 <AnMaster> anyway fork got *NO* parameters
22:33:19 <tusho> ais523: If I Recall Correctly is more popular :-P
22:33:27 <ais523> and it's more powerful than CreateProcessEx
22:33:35 <ais523> cygwin has to jump through huge hoops to simulate fork
22:33:52 <AnMaster> and that is why fork() on cygwin is so slow
22:34:12 <oerjan> tusho: ITYM "IIRC FTW". HTH.
22:34:37 <ais523> oerjan: you IRC? I IRC too
22:34:57 <ais523> I Think You Mean? Hope That Helps?
22:35:04 <ais523> oerjan: Internet Relay Chat
22:35:31 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it was an acronym pun
22:35:32 <AnMaster> iiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrccccccccccccc
22:35:38 <oerjan> ais523: somehow my mind refused to verb that noun :D
22:36:01 <Ilari> Linux has sys_clone syscall... 3 or 6 arguments. sys_fork() is special case of sys_clone() (IIRC, sys_clone(SIGCHLD, NULL, NULL)).
22:36:22 <tusho> Ilari: sheesh, you really are another fizzie
22:36:25 <tusho> we need more of you two :P
22:36:33 <AnMaster> Ilari, I don't care about syscall
22:36:38 <AnMaster> I just use the POSIX interface
22:36:48 <AnMaster> I don't care about the internals indeed
22:36:52 <ais523> well, it doesn't have 11 args
22:37:02 <ais523> more args are good, right?
22:37:34 <oerjan> as in aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
22:37:51 <Ilari> Until it starts to exhibit 'inner platform effect'...
22:38:01 <ais523> no, it's only 7 args at the moment
22:39:13 <Ilari> So many arguments as it tries to do everything that one would want to set up a task it becomes hideously complicated...
22:39:22 <ais523> wait, that 7 args wasn't for the real function
22:39:26 <ais523> it was a wrapper someone wrote
22:39:41 <AnMaster> ais523, this is CreateProcessEx?
22:39:52 <ais523> CreateProcessEx isn't the real function nowadays
22:39:57 <ais523> they renamed it back to CreateProcess
22:40:52 <AnMaster> "Since Linux 2.5.49 the system call has five parameters."
22:41:06 <AnMaster> ais523, when did they rename it back?
22:41:18 <ais523> I don't keep up with Windows API changes
22:42:31 <ais523> since Windows 2000, apparently
22:43:09 <AnMaster> while the POSIX API is clean and nice
22:49:11 <AnMaster> sure the posix api got some issues too
22:49:31 <AnMaster> but compared to windows api? MUCH less issues
22:49:51 <ais523> I got to know the Windows 3.1 API at one point
22:50:02 <ais523> some of it was borderline sane, most of it was just insane
22:50:12 <ais523> you basically have to open handles to everything before you can use it
22:50:20 <ais523> and often to lock those handles as well
22:50:28 <ais523> so it's open/lock/use/unlock/free
22:50:37 <ais523> POSIX does that with files on occasion, for efficiency
22:50:42 <ais523> but Windows does it with everything, more or less
22:51:01 <AnMaster> ais523, see support.h of cfunge for locked/unlocked stdio stuff
22:51:10 <ais523> also, handles are like crosses between pointers and integers
22:51:16 <ais523> and I know how locking works in POSIX
22:51:19 <ais523> at least, I think I do
22:51:40 <ais523> IIRC a bit of the Windows API exploits the fact that pointers to ints are always even on a 16-bit system
22:51:52 <ais523> by rightshifting them and using the high bit to mean something else
22:52:57 <ais523> that's only in some contexts, though
22:53:15 <ais523> actually I think that makes it worse
22:53:22 -!- AAAAAAue4njxuz has changed nick to AAAAAA.
22:53:33 <ais523> I can imagine doing that consistently being sane for a Lisp-alike
22:53:59 <AnMaster> I don't think it is sane in *any* case
22:54:10 -!- AAAAAA has changed nick to AAA_AAA.
22:54:19 <ais523> AnMaster: Lisp often stores type and value in the same 32-bit value
22:54:25 <ais523> that's why you get 28-bit integers, for instance
22:54:35 <ais523> AAA_AAA: trying to find an unused nick?
22:55:11 <tusho> Slereah2: i can remember when you used the nick ANantes and never talked, ever
22:55:17 <tusho> you were Yet Another Idler
22:56:18 <ais523> tusho: opinions on whether shifting a pointer because it's known to be even and using the remaining bit for something else is sane?
22:56:27 <AAA_AAA> "trying" isn't really the word, since it implies difficulty
22:56:53 <Sgeo> How long did it take me to go from idling here to chatting
22:57:00 <Sgeo> Also, why isn't the pointer opaque?
22:57:30 <ais523> AnMaster: presumably Sgeo has a semitransparent mouse pointe
22:57:32 <Sgeo> Why are there things that look at the pointer's bits?
22:57:46 <ais523> either that or it's a C-style pointer to an incomplete type
22:58:05 <Sgeo> "because it's known to be even and using the remaining bit for something else is sane?"
22:58:06 <ais523> Sgeo: to determine whether it's a pointer or an int multiplexed into the same 32-bit space
22:58:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well I can see how the extra bit can be useful
22:58:17 <AnMaster> but I still find it a bit dirty
22:58:30 <ais523> it was used to multiplex local 32-bit strings with handles to global strings IIRC
22:58:32 <oerjan> ais523: ghc 6.8 does something like that (except not shifting i think) for efficiency of pattern matching
22:58:35 <Sgeo> oh, a union? ty AnMaster
22:58:41 * Sgeo is still confuzzled
22:59:03 <AnMaster> I just pondered how I would solve it
22:59:03 <ais523> Windows has the MAKEINTDWORD macro
22:59:08 <ais523> which fits an integer into a pointer
22:59:13 <AnMaster> <ais523> it was used to multiplex local 32-bit strings with handles to global strings IIRC <-- THAT isn't sane
22:59:15 <ais523> at least, I think that's what it's called
22:59:17 <Sgeo> I still don't get it
22:59:51 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I agree that that isn't sane
22:59:53 <ais523> especially the handle bit
23:00:03 <ais523> Windows has an unhealthy love of handles
23:00:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well posix got file handles kind of
23:00:24 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, they're just integers
23:00:28 <ais523> and they're allocated from
23:00:55 <ais523> there was a space at the end of my line
23:01:04 <ais523> but then I hit return rather than 0
23:01:09 <AnMaster> your client stripped that space
23:01:15 <ais523> AnMaster: it must have been stripped somewhere
23:01:20 <ais523> the space is here on my client
23:01:25 <ais523> so presumably it stripped on sending but not on echo
23:02:07 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> -say ##AnMaster test
23:02:11 <AnMaster> that has the spaces on the end
23:02:36 <AnMaster> ais523, so seems to be on your side
23:02:44 <AnMaster> and for that channel it is locked up
23:02:58 <ais523> just not on echo, so I can't see it happening
23:03:04 <AnMaster> (so no point in trying to join, it is just a boring test channel)
23:03:39 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
23:04:51 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway have you found out how to properly do the initial come from points?
23:05:34 <ais523> with a channel full of esoprogrammers, I assumed that someone would have an idea
23:05:51 <ais523> I like the bold M idea from an eso point of view but not a practical point of view
23:06:02 <ais523> hey, I've thought of a nicely INTERCALly way to do it
23:06:08 <AnMaster> ais523, what about at start of program require that some fixed position in the program contains a line with encoded way to do it?
23:06:10 <ais523> how many befunge programs contain literal backspaces?
23:06:20 <ais523> INTERCAL uses overstrikes in its character set
23:06:25 <ais523> written as char backspace char
23:06:39 <AnMaster> ais523, how the heck do you write that in emacs?
23:06:41 <ais523> an overstrike would be a nicely INTERCALLy way to do a marker that isn't in the Befunge character set
23:06:54 <ais523> so for instance a bookworm is V C-q C-h -
23:08:00 -!- Corun has joined.
23:08:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:08:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:08:49 <AnMaster> <ais523> so for instance a bookworm is V C-q C-h -
23:08:52 <AnMaster> * ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
23:08:52 <AnMaster> * ais523 (n=ais523@147.188.254.115) has joined #esoteric
23:09:07 <ais523> the oh my I didn't see
23:09:10 <ais523> but I saw the line before
23:09:23 <ais523> you'll be glad to know that overstrikes are normally not used in modern code
23:09:27 <ais523> because they have synonyms
23:09:53 <ais523> V^H- is ? in C-INTERCAL
23:09:57 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway for overstrike... how the heck would you store it in the program?
23:10:03 <ais523> character backspace character
23:10:06 <ais523> with a literal backspace
23:10:14 <ais523> the parser could probably handle that
23:10:15 <AnMaster> ais523, how would columns line up?
23:10:25 <ais523> AnMaster: as if the char backspace char was one character
23:10:35 <AnMaster> ais523, same in editors I hope?
23:10:47 <ais523> I don't know of an editor that does backspaces like that
23:10:49 <ais523> at least emacs doesn't
23:10:57 <ais523> most screens don't have the required fonts
23:11:11 <ais523> yes, not lining up is pretty fatal in Befunge
23:11:26 <ais523> probably it would be possible to write an emacs mode to handle it, though
23:11:33 <ais523> a befunge-mode that handled overstrikes properly
23:11:33 <AnMaster> ais523, it's like "don't even try to use unicode"
23:11:55 <ais523> well, C-INTERCAL also has unicode synonyms for overstrikes which look like the original character
23:11:56 <AnMaster> because unicode would not line up
23:12:04 <ais523> and CLC-INTERCAL has latin-1 synonyms
23:12:16 <AnMaster> ais523, 8 bits per char really hm
23:12:45 <ais523> AnMaster: well, it would be breaking the Funge specs to allow overstrikes in the original program, but then it's impossible to do the FFI without breaking the Funge specs somehow
23:12:53 <ais523> COME FROM is about as feral as you can get
23:13:09 <AnMaster> well how would the actual overstrike be stored in the cell
23:13:25 <ais523> AnMaster: I guess it would be stored as one of the chars, with the other as metadata
23:13:37 <ais523> or maybe as a 0 with metadata
23:13:44 <ais523> the metadata would be stored separately from the grid
23:13:49 <AnMaster> meta data would have to be out of band indeed
23:13:50 <ais523> and manipulated with special fingerprint instructions
23:13:56 <ais523> and the metadata would be right out of band
23:14:00 <ais523> only used by the fingerprint
23:14:07 <ais523> so cfunge just sees a normal Funge program
23:14:11 <AnMaster> ais523, this seems like the most sane idea so far
23:14:23 <AnMaster> but. why overstrike? why not some other non-printable char?
23:14:30 <AnMaster> that will not cause line-up issues
23:14:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that makes sense too
23:14:53 <AnMaster> ais523, there got to be some that does not cause line up issues
23:14:54 <ais523> especially if we have a high-bit-set nonprintable and a backspace-based synonym, that's what INTERCAL interps normally do
23:15:18 <AnMaster> ais523, what about that char that cause a dot?
23:15:25 <ais523> incidentally, I'm working on implementing arithmetic in INTERCAL, and I was planning to use -^H: for division
23:15:35 <AnMaster> ais523, or some of those line chars
23:15:41 <AnMaster> I mean used my ncurses and such
23:15:48 <ais523> in latin-1 and Unicode
23:16:01 <AnMaster> ais523, that one will not cause line up issue, and work in utf8?
23:16:19 <ais523> well, all latin1 characters are 2 bytes in utf8
23:16:27 <ais523> but INTERCAL's generally transmitted in latin-1
23:16:32 <ais523> for CLC-INTERCAL compatibility
23:17:03 <ais523> also it isn't used for anything yet, which is good
23:17:29 <ais523> I wonder if it's in EBCDIC? If it were it would be perfect
23:17:33 <ais523> but that's probably too much to hope for
23:17:45 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge will never ever parse EBCDIC!
23:17:54 <ais523> I can probably simply persuade Claudio to add it to his nonstandard EBCDIC parser
23:18:00 <ais523> AnMaster: don't worry, the EBCDIC stuff's separate
23:18:03 <ais523> I wrote a conversion program
23:18:12 <ais523> so that C-INTERCAL could handle EBCDIC and Baudot programs
23:18:15 <ais523> just like CLC-INTERCAL can
23:18:28 <AnMaster> ais523, the C FFI can't do baudot
23:18:29 <ais523> they both handle ASCII too
23:18:33 <ais523> AnMaster: only for sources
23:18:45 <ais523> I didn't mean to say that well, ignore it
23:18:51 <ais523> basically it compiles Baudot into ascii
23:18:53 <AnMaster> well gcc will certainly break on EBCDIC AND Baudot
23:19:01 <ais523> AnMaster: that's why you compile it into ascii first
23:19:10 <ais523> that's the only sane way to do it AFAICT
23:19:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
23:19:20 <ais523> but INTERCAL's so old that it originally targetted EBCDIC
23:19:31 <ais523> so we keep the compatibility in, just in case...
23:19:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't think cfunge in Baudot is an issue
23:19:46 <ais523> it's not something that you have to worry about day-to-day, though
23:19:48 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:19:53 <ais523> because none of the compiler ever sees anything but ASCII
23:20:07 <ais523> well, CLC-INTERCAL does text I/O in Baudot, but that's also irrelevant here because it's abstracted away
23:20:16 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, or utf8 or latin1, both of which are supported
23:20:40 <ais523> incidentally, there's one char which has a different meaning depending on which character set it's in, but that's fine anyway
23:20:56 <AnMaster> stop trying to give me a headache ;P
23:22:15 * oerjan wonders if Morse code could be added
23:22:26 <ais523> oerjan: probably not that hard, I'd just need to modify convickt
23:22:32 <ais523> but what's the Morse for a rabbit char?
23:22:57 <ais523> try bookworm instead, V^H-
23:23:07 <ais523> Slereah2: I'm not very surprised, most character sets don't
23:23:14 <ais523> it's expressible in punched cards, though
23:23:38 <ais523> but no punched card reader actually correctly reads it apart from CLC-INTERCAL's virtual punched card reader
23:23:58 <ais523> AnMaster: normally we wouldn't have bothered, but the INTERCAL-72 docs mentioned it
23:24:08 <Slereah2> Mathematica certainly has a fox!
23:24:12 <ais523> Slereah2: probably not, it's a pretty obscure character
23:24:31 <AnMaster> <Slereah2> Mathematica certainly has a fox! <-- what?
23:24:40 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't rabbit just a "?
23:24:54 <Slereah2> AnMaster: Mathematica has a fox-lookinf character
23:24:58 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's a " overpunched on a .
23:25:06 <oerjan> i wonder if it has signs for the chinese zodiac - there's a hare there isn't there?
23:25:21 <ais523> basically, it's a cross between " and . just like ! is a cross between ' and .
23:25:25 <ais523> at least, in the INTERCAL meaning
23:25:32 <ais523> ' and " are for quoting
23:25:49 <ais523> so common expressions like '.1 $ .2' can be abbreviated to !1 $ .2'
23:26:06 <ais523> it doesn't really work in this font, though, but that's a legal INTERCAL abbrevation
23:26:18 <ais523> I actually used it when golfing my sig down to 120 chars for Slashdot
23:26:27 <ais523> also occasionally in code, for extra fun
23:26:51 <oerjan> hm i guess it's just an ordinary chinese character
23:27:16 <ais523> "rabbit character" Unicode gives no useful ghits
23:27:38 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%85%94
23:27:47 <ais523> occasionally used on Wikipedia as a slightly objective measurement of notability, despite warnings about this
23:28:05 <ais523> oerjan: that looks nothing like ". though
23:29:00 <AnMaster> oh right we got a wikipedia admin here :/
23:29:26 <ais523> AnMaster: a reasonably inactive Wikipedia admin at the moment
23:30:28 <oerjan> hm no specific sign for the constellation of Lepus (hare)
23:30:37 <Slereah2> I found where my Mathematica fonts are.
23:31:26 <Slereah2> Is there a software to see what's in a font?
23:33:01 <AnMaster> Slereah2, on linux? certainly!
23:34:31 <Slereah2> Let's try google with "font viewer"
23:35:09 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:35:15 <AnMaster> ais523, so will that dot char work? anyway normal line art chars should also work
23:35:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Client Quit).
23:35:56 <Slereah2> "Advanced Font Viewer est un programme, disposant dune interface trs conviviale, qui permettra de visualiser en simultane toutes les polices installes sur votre systme."
23:36:01 <Slereah2> Google has many powers, people
23:36:07 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:36:26 <AnMaster> Slereah2, not in finding English results
23:36:55 <ais523> it looks like french to me
23:37:03 <ais523> AnMaster: it should work
23:37:24 <AnMaster> ais523, well except how do you type it in emacs?
23:37:58 <ais523> 0xB1 = 10 110 001 = C-q 2 6 1 RET
23:38:05 * oerjan found a character map in his windows, only it is called "tegnkart" because it's a norwegian windows
23:38:28 <AnMaster> Teckenuppsättning in Swedish windows iirc
23:41:50 <oerjan> ah it's %SystemRoot%\system32\charmap.exe
23:42:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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23:42:41 <oerjan> oerjan> ah it's %SystemRoot%\system32\charmap.exe
23:42:57 <ais523> <AnMaster> Teckenuppsättning in Swedish windows iirc
23:42:57 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Teckenuppsättning in Swedish windows iirc "before" that
23:42:59 <ais523> is the last thing I saw
23:43:04 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Teckenuppsättning in Swedish windows iirc
23:43:04 <AnMaster> <oerjan> ah it's %SystemRoot%\system32\charmap.exe
23:43:04 <AnMaster> * ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
23:43:11 <AnMaster> * ais523 (n=ais523@147.188.254.115) has joined #esoteric
23:43:21 <AnMaster> ais523, you are leaving soon I guess?
23:43:28 <ais523> yes, I have to leave by midnight my time
23:43:32 <ais523> i.e. within about 15 mins
23:44:11 <ais523> AnMaster: this lab closes then
23:44:16 -!- Slereah has joined.
23:44:23 <AnMaster> ais523, and no internet at home?
23:44:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well hope you will work on ffungi then
23:44:43 * pikhq is back in t3h irssi. . .
23:44:49 <pikhq> Oh, sweet Ratpoison.
23:45:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it's one thing to work on
23:45:11 <ais523> any other languages I could ffi to easily?
23:45:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's a window manager.
23:46:27 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what about brainfuck?
23:46:41 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that would be pretty trivial
23:46:54 <ais523> pikhq: I don't know Plof
23:46:55 <AnMaster> need to add a few new instructions of course
23:47:03 <ais523> AnMaster: how do you do COME FROM in BF, anyway?
23:47:20 <ais523> also, data transfer might be a problem
23:47:33 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out).
23:47:36 <AnMaster> you mean to BrainFuck or BeFunge?
23:48:12 <Slereah> Isn't BF always Brainfuck?
23:48:27 <ais523> I don't think BF is used as an abbreviation for befunge except in file extensions
23:48:38 <Slereah> We should have an ESO subcomittee for it.
23:51:39 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:52:07 <pikhq> Slereah: I hereby declare that Befungeabbreviated shall be the appropriate abbreviation for Befunge.
23:52:56 -!- Slereah has joined.
23:52:57 <oerjan> i suggest .bs for Befunge, Shortened
23:56:27 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:57:05 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
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00:06:00 <tusho> AnMaster: e said .bs
00:06:18 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:06:53 <AnMaster> tusho, well maybe, but funge93 specs say .bf
00:10:42 <Slereah> There's your fox : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Fox%20Math.jpg
00:11:48 <Slereah> (is it loaded? My connection is too low to check)
00:13:01 <tusho> Slereah: it is loaded.
00:13:39 <Slereah> So Mathematica has a fox. But no bunny.
00:15:08 <Slereah> I'd invent a bunch of stupid symbols, just to bother font makers.
00:15:42 <augur> stephen wolfram is a furry?
00:16:00 <lament> doesn't that explain _everything_?
00:16:33 <tusho> wolfram acts exactly like furries always do
00:16:35 <tusho> without the furry part
00:16:41 <Slereah> I don't remember seeing that symbol anywhere in Mathematica.
00:16:56 <Slereah> I found it because I checked the whole character set.
00:19:22 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
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00:25:56 <Slereah> The following statement is true: The previous statement is false
00:26:40 <Slereah> DOES NOT COMPUTE, DOES NOT COMPUTE!
00:26:58 <lament> let's limit our discourse only to non-paradoxical statements
00:27:07 <lament> by using a simple axiomatic foundation
00:27:35 <lament> such as: say a paradox = BANNED
00:27:37 <Slereah> But, what if we find a way to express auto-referential statements within that axiomatic base!
00:28:02 <lament> Slereah: not for long!
00:29:07 -!- spaz has joined.
00:29:14 * spaz is forced to join
00:29:41 <spaz> not bsmntbombdood
00:29:51 <lament> AnMaster: because of the ban axiom
00:29:54 <spaz> AnMaster, his presence almost guarantees i won't stay for long
00:30:06 <Slereah> But is the ban axiom effectively computable? :o
00:30:08 <tusho> where did you come from
00:30:12 <spaz> tusho, i came from my mother
00:30:15 <tusho> and why don't you like bsmntbombdood
00:30:20 <tusho> spaz: who told you to come here
00:30:22 <spaz> tusho, long story
00:30:27 <AnMaster> tusho, spaz is a friend of mine
00:30:28 <tusho> spaz: i'm listening
00:30:33 <lament> Slereah: it's a lot like playing a nomic
00:30:33 <spaz> tusho, what AnMaster said
00:30:41 <tusho> spaz: so what's up with bsmntbombdood
00:30:44 <AnMaster> tusho, I said he would like the channel
00:30:46 <lament> Slereah: you demonstrate that a paradox has been introduced = you win
00:30:53 <spaz> tusho, it's a rather long story
00:30:56 <AnMaster> and I got no idea what is the thing about bsmntbombdood
00:30:57 <lament> except, you get banned instead of winning
00:30:57 <spaz> really i don't have time to explain it
00:31:17 <Slereah> But, what if the negation of that axiom produces another paradox :o
00:31:19 <spaz> AnMaster, it was from ##socialites
00:31:23 <spaz> AnMaster, and other chans i've seen him
00:31:32 <spaz> tusho, do i have to...
00:31:33 <tusho> or i'll bug you endlessly until you do
00:31:54 <spaz> AnMaster, anyways i'll try not to be too much of a degenerate
00:32:01 <tusho> spaz: ENDLESSLY!!!!!!!
00:32:25 <tusho> AnMaster: !!!!!!!!1111111!!!!!!
00:32:42 <AnMaster> anway if it is ##socialites related I think I know. but I have no intentions of talking of that here. it is NOT related to this channel
00:32:57 <AnMaster> it is something that happend before
00:33:06 <spaz> AnMaster, may i please perform the spaz maneuver on tusho
00:33:17 <spaz> AnMaster, hint: RapeX
00:33:40 * spaz looks innocent as hell
00:33:42 <tusho> spaz: now tell me darnit
00:33:52 <AnMaster> tusho, he is from a much rouger style of channel
00:34:01 <spaz> tusho, the spaz maneuver is where i take you roughly from behind...there i said it. :P
00:34:11 <tusho> spaz: i was talking about bsmntbombdood
00:34:21 <tusho> and I do think that AnMaster has been missing all the kinky gay sex going on in here
00:34:27 <AnMaster> tusho, as for ##socialites, well he insulted ops, trolled, was trying to mob some ppl in the channel and so on
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00:34:37 <tusho> sounds like bsmntbombdood
00:34:43 <spaz> AnMaster, that is precisely why i hate him
00:34:47 <spaz> he's a dumbass
00:34:51 <spaz> tusho, ^ question answered
00:34:53 <AnMaster> tusho, kick + ban for a several weeks
00:35:03 <AnMaster> and he tried to *insult ops to get shorter ban time*
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00:35:09 <lament> ##socialites sounds like a fun channel
00:35:09 <AnMaster> which just resulted in reverse of course
00:35:20 <AnMaster> lament, well I'm an op there so...
00:35:30 <spaz> Supricky06, i doubt you would find this place interesting
00:35:40 <spaz> Supricky06, from what i know it's about programming...so NERD ALERT :P
00:35:52 * spaz knows Supricky06 from another...type....of channel
00:35:54 <AnMaster> oh no, why did I *mention it in the channel over there*
00:36:02 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:36:20 <tusho> oh no I'm bsmntbombdood!
00:36:23 -!- Supricky06 has left (?).
00:36:35 <tusho> yes but i insulted the ops and trolled
00:36:47 <spaz> AnMaster, can i goooooooooo?
00:36:50 <AnMaster> tusho, well he did it pretty much worse than you did
00:36:51 * spaz whines like a 3 year old
00:37:03 <tusho> spaz: you're the one raping people in the ass
00:37:11 <spaz> tusho, like bsmntbombdood?
00:37:13 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway do you know some good hash library for C?
00:37:34 <tusho> pikhq: GET BACK TO AGORA YOU
00:37:36 <pikhq> GregorR[Prague]: T3h Gregor is in Prague?
00:37:38 * spaz waves too...goodbye
00:37:40 -!- spaz has left (?).
00:37:40 <AnMaster> tusho, yes but that doesn't seem to work here. gperf need a predefined set
00:37:54 <AnMaster> I would need to write out all possible values
00:37:59 <tusho> pikhq: but i just made a web version of the notary report, and a proposal that messed up the automation because it used a number too big for a fixnum
00:38:01 <tusho> isn't that awesome enough
00:38:42 <AnMaster> tusho, and int64*int64 is really really huge
00:40:06 <tusho> pikhq: http://eso-std.org/~ais523/notary-report if this doesn't set off an innate urge to return to agora I don't know what will!
00:41:07 <AnMaster> tusho, what happened to canada?
00:41:47 <tusho> AnMaster: died; it's going to be revived soon
00:41:51 <tusho> with a huge initial ruleset
00:41:54 <pikhq> tusho: I don't have a web browser ATM.
00:42:02 <tusho> including scam stuff
00:42:08 <tusho> if you exploit a scam you have to fix it at the same time
00:42:17 <tusho> also, facilities for invading other nomics
00:42:47 <pikhq> And the bit about scams? That's just formalising what is, honestly, common ettiquete.
00:42:59 <pikhq> You're liable to get lynched for violating that, actually.
00:44:22 <tusho> pikhq: Yes, but this actually makes it so that if you exploit a scam, it actually doesn't happen unless you fix it or propose to fix it in the same message
00:44:48 <tusho> Not illegal - just impossible
00:45:06 <pikhq> If you can make that rule unscammable, then you win. ;)
00:45:32 <tusho> pikhq: It requires a rule that takes priority&precedence over all others
00:45:37 <tusho> And yes, it'll require some heavy work
00:46:27 <tusho> pikhq: As for the invasion stuff, the first one we'll do is pretty clever (I'll /msg it so that it doesn't leak any more)
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03:49:58 <Slereah> DO YOU WANT OBJECT ORIENTED?
03:49:58 <Slereah> DO YOU WANT SHORT CIRCUIT?
03:50:01 <Slereah> SUN MICROSYSTEMS IS A MURDERER
03:51:41 <pikhq> And, of course, Gregor is D.
03:51:50 <pikhq> Too busy taking over the world to bother with an argument.
04:11:09 <Phenax> Slereah: I'M CONFEDERATE
04:11:12 <Phenax> SON OF BITCH NORTHERNER
04:13:07 * pikhq throws Phenax in the Boston harbor; hope you enjoy the tea.
04:14:13 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
04:21:03 <ihope> I'm Haskell. I'm really wonderful. Can you please give me a hug?
04:26:00 <ihope> Monads really aren't that bad, you know... and you really don't have to use them, if you don't want to...
04:26:58 <ihope> I mean, except the IO monad, which isn't that bad, I promise! And you can use recursion!
04:33:22 <ihope> I'll... just be going now, then. Tag along, if you care to...
04:35:03 <ihope> There. Did I do a good imitation of Haskell? :-)
04:35:45 <Slereah> You need more evil laughs and shouts.
04:37:34 <ihope> "*BLAMMO!* Um, see you around, then, guys... maybe..."
04:40:16 <ihope> !uoy evol I !LACRETNI ma I !olleH
04:40:56 <ihope> ?gnineve yadnoM enif siht gniod uoy era tahW
04:42:34 <ihope> ...hmm, not the best I LOVE YOU TOO placement, is it?
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11:24:33 <AnMaster> damn where is tusho when you need him
11:25:03 <AnMaster> this allow one version of some opcodes
11:25:35 <AnMaster> I reserve the top x bytes of the address space to mean the registers
11:54:14 <Ilari> AnMaster: How you do indirect addressing?
11:54:40 <AnMaster> Ilari, with special instructions currently
11:55:26 <Ilari> AnMaster: I mean equivalents to X86 'MOV EAX, [EBX]' and that sort of stuff...
11:55:50 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm. not that familiar with that syntax? can you do it in AT&T syntax?
11:56:29 <Ilari> AnMaster: Well, it loads value of EBX, reads 32-bit quantity from that address and writes the read value into EAX.
11:57:10 <Ilari> AnMaster: reg_eax = *((unsigned*)reg_ebx); (in pseudo-C).
11:57:42 <AnMaster> Ilari, in my ASM that would be IMOVMR, I = indirect, MR = memory to register
12:02:17 <AnMaster> Ilari, however mine isn't reg_eax, mine is something like register_file.gregs[1]
12:03:11 <Ilari> I haven't heard of any real architecture having memory-mapped registers (but I have heard about some whacky architectures: http://www.archivum.info/comp.std.c++/2005-11/msg00024.html).
12:03:26 <AnMaster> Ilari, and that was just a wild idea anyway
12:04:30 <Ilari> Oh, that one described there had no (impicitly or explicitly seperated) load or store instructions.
12:05:00 <AnMaster> well mine is semi-like x86/x86_64
12:05:31 <Ilari> X86 has implicitly seperated ones. 'MOV EAX, EBX' and 'MOV, EAX, [EBX]' are not the same opcode, although mnemonic is the same.
12:05:48 <AnMaster> yes I plan to make the mnemonic in the assembler the same
12:06:43 <AnMaster> because IMOV could be either way
12:06:52 <AnMaster> I need to make it clear what one is indirect
12:08:04 <AnMaster> have IMOVMR/RM different for "move from reg to memory" and "move to reg from memory"
12:08:14 <AnMaster> but for MOV it is easy to see difference
12:09:32 <Ilari> IIRC, doesn't AT&T x86 syntax have something like 'movl ($ebx), $eax'?
12:09:50 <AnMaster> iirc yes, but was some time ago I coded in it
12:12:28 <Ilari> I like Intel syntax more than AT&T. Although Intel syntax has some pitfalls like 'MOV [EAX], 0x01' (what's the width of that field pointed by EAX)?
12:13:13 <AnMaster> btw there is a FDIV for floating point division, but does there need to be floating point modulo too?
12:13:20 <Ilari> Typing something like that to NASM in fact causes error when assembling.
12:16:40 <Ilari> nasm(1) mentions 'BITS 64' for me...
12:19:05 <AnMaster> Ilari, iirc nasm can't do it, but that is just iirs
12:19:55 <AnMaster> is it safe to assume for all common platforms that you can access a n-byte value at an address for which addr % n = 0?
12:20:38 <Ilari> For fundamental types that should be safe. But IIRC, there are some stuff that behaves as 16 byte fundamental type.
12:21:00 <AnMaster> well I just need 1/2/4/8 byte integers
12:21:07 <AnMaster> Ilari, ok what about floating point?
12:21:44 <AnMaster> Ilari, also do I need a modulo for floating point?
12:21:53 <Ilari> Also, X86 has long double. 10 bytes. I don't know what's the canonical alignment.
12:22:28 <AnMaster> Ilari, well long double is not standard really, and I'm going for standard IEEE types for floating point
12:22:41 <Ilari> AnMaster: Could be nice, since FP modulo is bit nasty to implement with just FP division.
12:23:42 <Ilari> There is one nasty alignment requirement for X86: SSE regs behave as 16 byte fundamental types in load/store (altough subfields are smaller).
12:25:02 <Ilari> AnMaster: Nasm assembles 'MOV RAX, [RBX]' (which is undoubtedly X64 instruction) successfully into '48 8B 03' (64 bit mode).
12:25:18 <AnMaster> maybe they added that nowdays then
12:25:28 <AnMaster> a few years ago it didn't have it I knowe
12:25:55 <Ilari> AnMaster: Nasm version 2.03.01 (Jun 18 2008).
12:26:00 <AnMaster> Ilari, what will happen on x86 if a read is misaligned?
12:27:36 <Ilari> AnMaster: If it all is within same page, just performance loss (or maybe an exception). If it spans multiple pages, I really don't know what will happen on write if one of pages is not writable.
12:27:41 <AnMaster> Ilari, btw the registers are 64-bit wide but the address space is just 32-bits, XD
12:28:29 <Ilari> Even if that exception happens, I don't know if it will be propagated to userspace...
12:28:58 <Ilari> Like majority of page faults are not propagated to userspace.
12:30:02 <AnMaster> Ilari, here GCC aligns doubles on 8-byte boundaries
12:30:28 <AnMaster> and on x86_64 floating point is SSE by default
12:33:30 <Ilari> Wow... I did test program for unaligned interpage write. Nothing conclusive because GDB segfaults trying to load it.
12:33:52 <AnMaster> Ilari, what happen when run outside gdb?
12:34:47 <Ilari> Sig11 (but that doesn't tell anything new).
12:35:08 <AnMaster> so segfault in other words for that too
12:35:23 <AnMaster> that should be reported as a bug?
12:36:06 <AnMaster> Ilari, anyway if you try to do it in C I guess the compiler will spilt up the read in two parts or something?
12:40:31 <Ilari> I tested that interpage write: If either page is not writable, the whole write doesn't happen.
12:43:38 <Ilari> Which makes bit of sense: It is going to fault in the TLB entries first, and that would fail.
12:43:51 <Ilari> Yes, the write segfaults of course.
12:50:47 <AnMaster> Ilari, what happens if both pages are writable?
12:51:24 <Ilari> Normal write (although it can't be atomic).
12:52:13 <Ilari> Apparently some SSE instructions do require 16-byte alignment (MOVAP*).
12:52:50 <AnMaster> so what if you add the LOCK prefix?
12:53:28 <Ilari> AnMaster: AFAIK, it won't be atomic even with that LOCK prefix...
12:53:45 <AnMaster> what would happed if you tried LOCK
12:54:56 <Ilari> Ah, trying to put LOCK there doesn't work at all (SIGILL).
12:55:42 <Ilari> ILLegal instruction
12:57:04 <AnMaster> Ilari, did you write this in asm or in C?
12:57:07 <Ilari> Unaligned intrapage LOCKed MOVe does indeed complete (presumably atomically).
12:57:44 <AnMaster> you can't have aligned intrapage MOV afaik?
12:58:27 <Ilari> Aligned interpage MOV is logically impossible. All aligned MOVes are intrapage.
12:59:54 <Ilari> Some architectures are not as lenient as x86 with unaligned access. In those, one always gets SIGBUS for unaligned access.
13:00:47 <AnMaster> is SIGBUS ONLY for unaligned access?
13:01:07 <Ilari> Nope. You also get it if you seriously fsck up with mmap.
13:01:20 <Ilari> I have seen SIGBUS on x86.
13:02:08 <Ilari> As task-directed hardware-fault type signal.
13:02:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, on such a strict platform, how do you read TCP/IP headers?
13:02:27 <AnMaster> after all they contain non-aligned fields iirc
13:03:10 <Ilari> Even if arch only had 32-bit memory R/W, you can load fields into registers and suffle the bytes in appropriate manner.
13:05:11 <Ilari> TCP doesn't even have any fields crossing 32-bit boundary...
13:05:25 <Ilari> Well, apart of options.
13:07:20 <Ilari> IPv4 again only has option field that can cross 32-bit boundary...
13:07:34 <AnMaster> well maybe it was that field then
13:08:29 <Ilari> IPv6 has src/dst addresses crossing 32-bit boundary, but they are still 32-bit aligned.
13:10:08 <Ilari> Both TCP and IP have pointers that make possible to just ignore options...
13:11:22 <AnMaster> unless you want to interpret the options
13:11:55 <Ilari> Handling options could be quite nasty to write as ASM code for arch that has no unaligned or sub-32-bit load/store...
13:12:58 <AnMaster> is there any arch without sub-32-bit?
13:13:44 <Ilari> Maybe some of first MIPS processors (latter do have unaligned load/store ops)? I don't really know
13:14:22 <AnMaster> well today MIPS is used a lot in consumer routers and such
13:16:11 <Ilari> Routers don't encounter options in IP header often, and some of the options there are better ignored anyway (like source route).
13:19:30 <Ilari> Heh... Priorities 'immediate', 'flash' and 'flash override'... Why does that remind me of military stuff?
13:20:21 <fizzie> MIPS R4k (which I think my SGI Indy has) is rather old-ish (although not really old-old), and has "load byte" and "load halfword". I'm very much not an expert on MIPS variants, so no clue whether the others do.
13:23:08 <fizzie> Random googling hit upon some miscellaneous Alpha architecture documentation, which seems to imply that there the unaligned (and any less-than-32-bits-wide) load instructions are just pseudo-instructions that get assembled into multiple opcodes.
13:23:09 <Ilari> Looking at list of IP options, perhaps one of the very few that could concen routers and shouldn't be ignored anyway is traceroute option.
13:23:56 <Ilari> And one can do traceroute without using traceroute option anyway...
13:24:43 <AnMaster> hm how would you cast a uint8_t to a int8_t in C *without converting it*
13:25:01 <fizzie> Oh, and the DSP chip (TI TMS320VC5416) we used on one course had absolutely no unaligned or sub-32-bit load/store... but DSP chips probably don't really count.
13:25:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, it is a uint8_t memory[MEMORYSIZE];
13:25:30 <AnMaster> and I need to access that as different types
13:25:48 <fizzie> Well, ((uint8_t *)memory)[x] ?
13:25:56 <Ilari> Or 'int8_t* smemory = (int8_t*)memory'?
13:26:16 <AnMaster> well I will also need to access it as 32-bits and so on
13:27:27 <Ilari> Be aware of that it uses type size as offset multipler... So just casting the table pointer doesn't work.
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13:28:58 <fizzie> If all your offsets are bytes, it could be cleanest to use *((TYPE *)&memory[offset]) for all types.
13:29:02 <Ilari> Maybe something like *((uint32_t)(memory + x))
13:29:44 <AnMaster> return comp->mem->memory[ptr]; == return *((TYPE* )&(comp->mem->memory[offset])); gah
13:30:31 <fizzie> Just don't use offset[comp->mem->memory] unless you like confusing people.
13:31:54 <fizzie> foo[bar] is pretty much the same as *(foo + bar), and + is commutative, so you can write it as bar[foo] if you like.
13:32:05 <AnMaster> offset being a 32-bit int and comp->mem->memory being a 64-bit pointer?
13:32:10 <fizzie> I would think there's a lame joke about it in many C books.
13:32:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, not sure if it is commutative then
13:32:39 <fizzie> Oh, it is. As long as you have one pointer and one integer, it'll do pointer arithmetic with it no matter which way you write it.
13:32:44 <Ilari> AFAIK, + is always commutative in C (in C++ it might not be).
13:33:11 <fizzie> 4["funny"] == 'n' is true, if you want a test case. :p
13:33:32 <fizzie> Can't even do zero-based indexing in my head. I blame MATLAB.
13:33:57 <Ilari> In C++ the cases where + isn't commutative invariably involve operator overloading.
13:36:07 <fizzie> ISO/IEC 9899:1999 (read: C99) 6.5.2.1 "Array subscripting", paragraph 2: "The definition of the subscript operator [] is that E1[E2] is identical to (*((E1)+(E2)))."
13:36:12 <AnMaster> #define CreateRead(name, type) \
13:36:12 <AnMaster> static inline type Read ## name (ans_comp * comp, ans_ptr ptr) { \
13:36:12 <AnMaster> if ((ptr + sizeof(type)) < comp->mem->size) { \
13:36:12 <AnMaster> return *((type*)&(comp->mem->memory[ptr])); \
13:36:36 <AnMaster> CreateRead(S8, int8_t) and so on then
13:36:41 <fizzie> It's like a cake made of ^Is.
13:36:58 <fizzie> The tab characters there in front of the lines.
13:37:07 <Ilari> One exampe of noncommutative '+' in C++ with standard library types is std::string '+' std::string (<foo> + <bar> gives <foobar> but <bar> + <foo> gives <barfoo>).
13:37:09 <fizzie> A 90-degrees-rotated cake, but a cake nevertheless.
13:37:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, your client suck then?
13:37:40 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd want it to show raw tabs as 8-character spaces.
13:39:05 <AnMaster> 4 * 1024 * 1024 == 4 MB right?
13:39:22 <fizzie> Should be enough for everybody.
13:39:40 <Ilari> AnMaster: Does that code have bug in it?
13:39:53 <AnMaster> Ilari, what code? the read one? possible haven't tested it yet
13:40:06 <Ilari> AnMaster: That CreateRead code.
13:40:16 <AnMaster> Ilari, it is very possible it got errors
13:40:47 <AnMaster> it compiles but I'm not yet at a stage where I can test it
13:40:50 <Ilari> AnMaster: Looks like that if line has integer overflow...
13:41:16 <Ilari> AnMaster: And hopefully that ptr is unsigned...
13:41:19 <AnMaster> comp->mem->size need to be 64-bit to ensure correctness
13:41:25 <AnMaster> Ilari, and yes typedef uint32_t ans_ptr;
13:42:09 <Ilari> Making mem->size to be 64 bits isn't enough if arch is 32-bit and ptr is 32-bit...
13:42:50 <AnMaster> so what to do. oh wait doing a - from memory size
13:43:11 <fizzie> Also maybe <=? When reading bytes (sizeof == 1), if your size == 2, you'd only be able to read from offset 0; when ptr == 1, it's 1+1 < 2 which is false.
13:43:52 <oklopol> guys, what are you talking about?
13:44:28 <fizzie> oklopol; They're probably spreading rumours about you!
13:44:32 <AnMaster> also the createread code got some other missing parts: It should cause a jump to exception table on out of bonds access from the code
13:44:46 <AnMaster> if (ptr >= (comp->mem->size - sizeof(type)))
13:44:52 <oklopol> fizzie: not a good answer!
13:45:01 <fizzie> Just a guess, just a guess.
13:45:43 <Ilari> AnMaster: Also, since you have exception table, how you handle nested exceptions? Similarly to x86 (it has 'double fault' exception, but 'triple fault' causes processor shutdown).
13:46:18 <AnMaster> Ilari, I should pastebin my current mostly complete specs
13:46:24 <AnMaster> there are still some things missing in it
13:46:41 <AnMaster> but I want to do a tire 1 implementation first or something ;)
13:47:11 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/T6FrEX67.html
13:49:35 <AnMaster> how would I write a 32-bit value to that array, hrrm
13:50:38 <AnMaster> *((type*)&(comp->mem->memory[ptr])) = value;
13:52:19 <Ilari> I don't see obivious mistakes. Also, from spec, I flag to ADD and SUB are pretty much no-ops unless you have some overflow flags or exceptions.
13:52:54 <AnMaster> Ilari, how do you do -2 + 4 without IADD?
13:53:34 <Ilari> FFFF FFFE + 0000 0004 = 0000 0002 (assuming 32 bits).
13:58:04 <Ilari> And indeed FFFF FFFE is 32-bit 2s complement for -2.
13:59:02 <AnMaster> also oops for a typo "There are 64 general purpose registers, named r1-r128."
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14:12:51 <AnMaster> actually I don't need 8/16/32/64 variants on LDC and some other
14:32:22 <AnMaster> Ilari, in total 137 instructions it seems
14:38:56 <AnMaster> while read line; do if [[ $line =~ ^#define\ OP_([^ ]+)\ +([0-9]+) ]]; then id=${BASH_REMATCH[2]}; op=${BASH_REMATCH[1]}; if [[ ${INSTRARRAY[$id]} ]]; then echo "double $id"; else INSTRARRAY[${BASH_REMATCH[2]}]=${BASH_REMATCH[1]}; fi; fi; done < opcodes.h
14:39:11 <AnMaster> for ((i=0; i < 138; i++)); do if [[ -z ${INSTRARRAY[$id]} ]]; then echo "missing $i"; fi; done
14:58:10 <Ilari> 137 fits well into single byte with room to spare...
14:59:11 <AnMaster> Ilari, I thought it would be way more
14:59:25 <AnMaster> I'm in fact surprised it wasn't more
15:00:00 <AnMaster> now this should be made into a giant switch case of course ;)
15:03:41 <AnMaster> Ilari, btw this list doesn't contain some instructions I were unsure if I should implement, so add maybe 5 more or so for full set
15:06:08 <Ilari> The system doesn't appear to implement rings, user/supervisor, strong isolation or any corresponding priviledge seperation mechanism...
15:06:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, indeed, and that is intentional
15:06:37 <AnMaster> maybe it will be added in future
15:06:50 <AnMaster> but for now I just want to get the basics working
15:07:31 <AnMaster> Ilari, but indeed porting linux to it would be a nice future challenge (that I don't intend to take ;)
15:08:06 <Ilari> Its also missing segmentation (but it is mostly holdover from 16-bit days)...
15:08:25 <AnMaster> well modern systems use paging instead iirc?
15:08:53 <Ilari> Yes, modern systems use paging instead of segmentation...
15:09:16 <AnMaster> so well that may be something I will do in the future indeed, but *not now*, I need to walk before I can run and so on
15:09:38 <Ilari> Except that IIRC, some security enhancement patches to Linux made use of segmentation...
15:10:16 <Ilari> Nope, not PAX. And IIRC, x64 doesn't even support paging in 64-bit mode.
15:11:21 <Ilari> Yes, segmentation...
15:11:41 <AnMaster> anyway segmentation is not something I need in other words heh
15:12:08 <AnMaster> how would I best do main loop I wonder
15:12:36 <AnMaster> hrrm, 1) fetch 1 byte, 2) fetch parameters
15:13:22 <AnMaster> seems only sane way and don't think it is suboptimal?
15:14:25 <Ilari> The standard execution cycle is instruction fetch, instruction decode, operand fetch, execution, writeback.
15:14:49 <AnMaster> what would instruction decode mean in the case of a byte code interpreter?
15:15:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, I don't know VHDL if that was what you were thinking ;)
15:15:56 <AnMaster> a byte code interpreter will work a bit differently than a real CPU of course, like fetching several instructions in parallel doesn't make much sense
15:18:34 <Ilari> Seperating instruction fetch and instruction decode in bytecode interpretter might make detecting reading from invalid memory easier... But OTOH, it has some problems with self-modifying code.
15:18:56 <Ilari> reading conde from invalid memory, that is.
15:18:59 <AnMaster> hm code may indeed be self-modifying if it want or not if it doesn't
15:19:19 <AnMaster> as for read from invalid, well.... I have been planning to initialize the memory to 0 (NOP)
15:20:43 <Ilari> AnMaster: Maybe make 0 be like X86 UD2 and use something else for NOP? OTOH, 0 for NOP looks nice...
15:21:17 <AnMaster> can't find it in my x86_64 reference manual (section general programming)
15:21:37 <Ilari> Defined to always raise SIGILL.
15:21:57 <AnMaster> weird it is in "system instruction"
15:22:24 <AnMaster> UD2 0F 0B Raise an invalid opcode exception.
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15:24:19 <Ilari> 00 is 8 bit register to memory add.
15:25:50 <Ilari> When combining with second zero byte, the register is AL, and the memory reference is BX+SI, EAX or RAX.
15:26:10 <AnMaster> well x86 is more or less insane in parts
15:27:09 <Ilari> Hmm... There are many instructions that take two gp registers there, right? There would be four free bits if instruction would be 3 bytes...
15:29:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, I plan to extend it in the future
15:29:24 <AnMaster> with stuff like rings and so on
15:29:42 <AnMaster> so no need to pack more closely
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15:31:10 <AnMaster> btw I know you will hate ansembler as much as cfunge at some point ;P
15:31:26 -!- boily has joined.
15:31:29 <AnMaster> but I managed to say hi to you before you
15:31:40 <tusho> that's why i said darn
15:31:46 <tusho> i said 'hi ais523/darn'
15:31:50 <tusho> well, I don't greet you :-P
15:31:52 <tusho> hello boily - you new here?
15:31:58 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but if I check that he'll have greeted me already
15:32:03 <tusho> so better to risk it
15:33:15 <AnMaster> tusho, 8 MB memory for ansembler, that should be enough for everyone right? ;)
15:33:32 <tusho> that's actually reasonable
15:33:34 <Ilari> X86 uses 'spare register' field of addressing mode field to choose instruction for many opcodes...
15:33:36 <AnMaster> btw Ilari here suggested I add rings and such
15:33:46 <tusho> AnMaster: i wouldn't for your first thingy
15:33:49 <tusho> i'd keep it simple, first
15:34:05 <AnMaster> I will maybe add rings and such at some point in the future
15:34:14 <AnMaster> but the current 137 instructions are enough for now
15:34:26 <Ilari> I didn't suggest to add rings. I only noted the absence of priviledge separation. And I know ways to get privledge separation without rings.
15:34:40 <tusho> 137?! wtf AnMaster
15:34:41 <AnMaster> <Ilari> The system doesn't appear to implement rings, user/supervisor, strong isolation or any corresponding priviledge seperation mechanism...
15:34:51 <AnMaster> tusho, well a lot are 32/64 variants
15:34:54 <tusho> Also ... Ilari, this is his first CPU thingy.
15:35:06 <tusho> Does he really need privilege seperation, Ilari?
15:35:26 <AnMaster> I made it extensible in future
15:36:03 <AnMaster> tusho, if I had used a prefix byte it would have been much fewer instructions
15:37:26 <AnMaster> tusho, http://rafb.net/p/z7jJfg51.html
15:37:33 <AnMaster> CreateReadAndWrite(S8, int8_t)
15:37:34 <AnMaster> CreateReadAndWrite(U8, uint8_t)
15:37:34 <AnMaster> CreateReadAndWrite(S16, int16_t)
15:38:00 <AnMaster> tusho, what? I love the C preprocessor ;P
15:38:16 <tusho> by the way, since I'm just going to ask random alive people, AnMaster, what do you think of http://eso-std.org/~ais523/notary-report?
15:38:21 <tusho> specifically, does it look OK?
15:38:28 <tusho> apparently the Contestmaster: line is messed in a lot of browsers
15:38:40 <tusho> (oh, and enable JS because it lets you hide the index and recent changes)
15:38:48 <tusho> (but JS is not required)
15:38:56 <tusho> (still, i'd enable it)
15:38:59 <tusho> (otherwise it's really long)
15:39:28 <AnMaster> tusho, the line is not missing for first report in: lynx konqueror, firefox 2
15:39:41 <tusho> AnMaster: not missing
15:39:45 <tusho> i.e. overlapping with the name
15:39:47 <tusho> anyway, it's the css
15:39:49 <tusho> the html itself is fine
15:40:07 <AnMaster> tusho, looks ok in lynx apart from some odd {{{ and }}}
15:40:10 <tusho> (oh, and I assume the two JS links work fine)
15:40:17 <tusho> odd {{{ and }}}? weird
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15:40:46 <tusho> AnMaster: so it works perfectly. any comments on the actual design?
15:40:49 <AnMaster> Parties: Ivan Hope CXXVII, comex, the AFO, Murphy, root, Goethe, BobTHJ
15:40:49 <AnMaster> Contestmaster: Ivan Hope CXXVII
15:40:49 <AnMaster> The name of this contract is "Agoran Twister". This is a public
15:40:51 <AnMaster> contract. A party to this contract may be referred to as a Keith.
15:40:59 <tusho> you're loading it as text/plain
15:41:04 <AnMaster> tusho, "ok but I'm not good at estetics myself"
15:41:17 <tusho> http://eso-std.org/~ais523/notary-report will give you a text file or html depending on what your browser requests
15:41:19 <tusho> try http://eso-std.org/~ais523/notary-report.html
15:42:02 <AnMaster> well ok in firefox 2 and konq for layout look
15:42:08 <AnMaster> as in "doesn't look messed up"
15:42:13 <AnMaster> note javascripts are off in both
15:42:20 <tusho> AnMaster: try turning on JS
15:42:26 <tusho> the index and recent changes should collapse
15:42:29 <tusho> and you should have a hide/show link
15:42:38 <tusho> how does it look in lynx with the .html
15:42:49 <tusho> since they're very long
15:43:10 <AnMaster> well in lynx, it is *ok but not great*, few sites are great in lynx, maybe those using SHORTTAGS ;P
15:43:18 <AnMaster> * 2008-06-10 Teh Cltohed Mna joins the AAA
15:43:18 <AnMaster> * 2008-06-10 Teh Cltohed Mna joins the Bank of Agora
15:43:18 <AnMaster> * 2008-06-10 ehird creates pledge #9
15:43:19 <AnMaster> * 2008-06-10 Ivan Hope CXXVII creates pledge #10
15:43:28 <AnMaster> * time of last report is in blue
15:43:33 <tusho> AnMaster: htat's not an error
15:43:33 <AnMaster> while the othere are in magenta
15:43:35 <tusho> that's how lynx displays <em>
15:43:41 <tusho> <em>time of last report</em>
15:43:47 <tusho> which is why it's italic in a graphical browser
15:43:54 <AnMaster> tusho, oh the show/hide doesn't work any longer in konq
15:43:59 <tusho> (the semantic version of <i>talics)
15:44:01 <tusho> AnMaster: huh what
15:44:03 <AnMaster> it stops working after you close it
15:44:20 <tusho> but I think that's down to konqueror's quite poor js support, AnMaster
15:44:30 -!- boily has left (?).
15:44:42 <AnMaster> tusho, well this is konq 3.5.9 so indeed
15:45:28 <tusho> AnMaster: you know the amount of stuff I have in the css for that page is totally overblown for what it is
15:45:31 <tusho> it messes about with typography
15:45:47 <AnMaster> tusho, sucks in w3m but I think it is wrong terminal charset
15:46:01 <AnMaster> set to latin-1 for another app, looks better with utf8 in konsole
15:46:16 <tusho> AnMaster: is this app ick
15:47:58 <tusho> 03:24:33 <AnMaster> damn where is tusho when you need him
15:49:43 <tusho> AnMaster: i thought you wer ebrb
15:50:07 <tusho> AnMaster: just to horrify you by the way, that notary report is generated with ruby
15:50:11 <tusho> by parsing the text version with regexps
15:50:16 <AnMaster> tusho, well I got nothing against ruby
15:50:29 <AnMaster> I don't know ruby but it seems saner than perll
15:50:40 <tusho> AnMaster: it is basically a cleaned up perl
15:50:47 <tusho> with a smalltalky OO system
15:51:00 <AnMaster> tusho, and some influences from python
15:51:26 <tusho> AnMaster: well, some of it looks like python
15:51:30 <tusho> but semantically it's quite different
15:51:36 <tusho> let's put it this way, perl->ruby is pretty damn easy
15:51:41 <AnMaster> tusho, do you want to see my register union?
15:51:42 <tusho> python->ruby is quite uphill
15:51:53 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/vWHg2850.html
15:52:06 <tusho> what's scary about that
15:52:19 <AnMaster> I thought you wouldn't like it
15:53:48 <AnMaster> isn't there some CPU with like 8 MB L2 cache?
15:54:12 <AnMaster> iirc there is one, some quad-core monster from intel or amd
15:55:38 <tusho> AnMaster: i think maybe the mac pros have them
15:55:41 <tusho> it sounds familiar
15:56:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:58:57 <Sgeo> http://forums.gamewaredevelopment.com/search.php?searchid=57320
15:59:34 <tusho> Sgeo: what about it
15:59:43 <tusho> also, 'I grew another hand' is totally the best topic title ever
16:01:14 * Sgeo makes another thread
16:02:22 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what did you search for+
16:02:27 <tusho> AnMaster: topics he started
16:02:30 <tusho> that's what the top bar said
16:02:44 <tusho> also, Sgeo, wtf, that forum has no 'register' link. :-P
16:02:52 <tusho> do you have to join via astral projection?
16:03:49 <Sgeo> I think registration was temporarily disabled or something
16:03:56 <Sgeo> I joined a long while ago
16:04:24 <Sgeo> http://forums.gamewaredevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=7570 can have a detrimental effect on the Warp
16:04:45 <tusho> Sgeo: hah i just found that
16:04:49 <tusho> 'The code still requires a bit of work, however, I am apprehensive about releasing it to the public, for the effects of duplicated norns traveling through the Warp are unknown.'
16:04:55 <tusho> IT MIGHT CAUSE A PIME TARADOX
16:05:02 <tusho> THIS EVIL INVENTION CAN NEVER BE RELEASED
16:05:58 <Sgeo> Seriously, the norn history as recorded by a warp might record a death, then more events coming from a duplicate. That might be the only effect, or that occurance might crash the rather unstable and probably badly programmed warp.
16:07:54 <Sgeo> I don't want to risk crashing the Warp
16:08:03 <tusho> Sgeo: Then you'll never no. Jusst try it.
16:08:04 <Sgeo> I've been urged by Sine not to try it
16:08:28 <tusho> Sgeo: I assume the Warp crashing would disable everyone elses?
16:08:32 <tusho> I imagine the software restarts automatically.
16:08:37 -!- Corun has joined.
16:08:38 <tusho> It would be crazy for it not to.
16:08:42 <Sgeo> There's a Warp server, that's what I'm worried about
16:08:48 <Sgeo> The Warp's been down before
16:08:55 <tusho> Sgeo: Presumably just regular downtime though.
16:09:05 <tusho> A crash will just make it automatically restart; I've never seen it any other way
16:09:25 <Sgeo> I don't trust the Warp to be sanely designed.
16:09:49 <tusho> Sgeo: Even terribly designed servers auto-restart. :-P
16:10:07 <tusho> Sheesh. Just do it :P
16:10:31 <Sgeo> Let me clean up some code. A command that my code uses is currently rather useless in a script, so I need to work around it using the equivelent of eval()
16:16:49 <Sgeo> caos 0 1 _p1_ _p2_ "hist wipe ov99" 0 1 va98
16:16:56 <Sgeo> Instead of hist wipe ov99
16:17:20 <Sgeo> AnMaster, no. Docking Station (Creatures)
16:17:41 <Sgeo> Docking Station
16:18:14 <Sgeo> It's like a trial of Creatures 3 with some added abilities
16:18:22 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Docking_Station
16:18:38 <Sgeo> free as in beer though
16:19:01 <Sgeo> No time limit. Just an annoying nagging magma norn thing which can easily be disabled
16:20:08 <Sgeo> tusho has played with it a bit
16:21:15 <Sgeo> tusho likes torturing norns
16:22:13 <Sgeo> I torture norns genetically.
16:22:17 -!- timotiis has joined.
16:22:38 <tusho> Sgeo: i would torture norns genetically; except no way in hell will I subject myself to caos
16:22:43 <tusho> you should write a Caos Abstraction Layer
16:22:50 <tusho> and have a compiler that makes caos out of it
16:22:59 <Sgeo> He's working on something called Kaos
16:23:06 <Sgeo> Also, genetic torture <> CAOS stuff
16:23:10 <tusho> Sgeo: does it have real control structures
16:23:15 <tusho> like with { curly braces }
16:23:47 <tusho> 4 characters still
16:23:50 <tusho> and no actual blocks
16:23:51 <AnMaster> tusho, do you think I should initialize the memory of ansembler to 0x0 before or leave it random?
16:24:00 <tusho> AnMaster: use uninitialized memory
16:24:12 <Sgeo> enum 4 0 0 ... next
16:24:21 <AnMaster> tusho, wait, it is a global variable, won't it be 0x0 anyway then?
16:24:28 <tusho> AnMaster: then make it local
16:24:28 <Sgeo> tusho, it's worse than LSL
16:24:32 <tusho> and copy it into a global
16:24:45 <AnMaster> tusho, ugh, I don't want to overdesign and make it reentrant!
16:24:48 <tusho> Sgeo: er I was talking about Kaos by the way
16:24:51 <Sgeo> some of the commands, like hist wipe, are buggy, so I have to try to wrap in the caos command
16:24:52 <tusho> AnMaster: keep it in a global
16:24:56 <tusho> but intiialize it from a local
16:25:01 <Sgeo> I was talking CAOS
16:25:21 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Kaos
16:25:44 <AnMaster> tusho, saying "re-entrant" made you change your mind quickly hehehe
16:25:58 <tusho> i always said that
16:26:00 <AnMaster> Sgeo, Kaos? that is Swedish for chaos btw
16:26:11 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: then make it local
16:26:13 <Sgeo> Kaos looks somewhat decent given what it has to compile to..
16:26:13 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: keep it in a global
16:26:25 <tusho> read the next line
16:26:29 <tusho> 'but initialize it from a local'
16:26:34 <tusho> also my first one was
16:26:37 <tusho> 'then make it a local'
16:26:40 <tusho> 'but copy it to a global'
16:26:43 <tusho> so ha, i didn't change
16:26:46 <tusho> AnMaster: go for it
16:27:16 <tusho> I meant to target AnMaster
16:27:55 <AnMaster> I thought you were targeting Sgeo
16:29:40 <AnMaster> tusho, question: will this fetch and increment right? instr = comp.mem[comp.regs.pc++];
16:29:56 * AnMaster can never remember ordering in such cases
16:30:11 <tusho> AnMaster: yes but I think that may be undefined
16:30:18 <tusho> fetch then increment
16:30:33 <tusho> the increment is trailing on the latter, sorta
16:38:23 <AnMaster> tusho, yay I implemented NOP and HLT ;P
16:38:32 <tusho> AnMaster: your name is totally fitting!
16:38:37 <tusho> you are a master at advanced programming!
16:39:11 <AnMaster> I have implemented NOP and HLT, only to test main loop works, and it was really yay that my main loop works
16:42:47 <Sgeo> WHY isn't the hist wipe taking effect?!?!
16:42:55 <tusho> Sgeo: Warp'd it yet?
16:45:04 <Sgeo> I'm trying to fix the hist wipe issue first
16:46:43 -!- olsner has joined.
16:49:40 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
16:50:52 <tusho> AIS523-LOGS-CLAIM-OF-ERROR: You don't have Pledge: false on teh clthoed mna
16:53:55 <tusho> AnMaster: an agoran partnership
16:56:05 <AnMaster> tusho, different types of jump implemented btw
17:00:57 <AnMaster> tusho, if at 0x2 there is an "realative jump instruction", and at 0x3 is the parameter for it (with is 10 in this example) where should it end up?
17:01:26 <tusho> since (RJMP X) is one instruction
17:01:33 <Sgeo> I can't seem to dbg: outs this damn thing
17:01:45 <AnMaster> well instructions + parameters are variable width
17:01:56 <AnMaster> I guess assembler will have to take care of it
17:02:30 <AnMaster> for example NOP got no parameters, the relative jump one 8-bit parameter and the absolute jump one 32-bit parameter
17:03:06 <AnMaster> tusho, so should it be in bytes I guess?
17:03:15 <AnMaster> anyway it is JRL not RJMP for me
17:04:56 <Sgeo> The issue seems to be a change of targ
17:08:38 -!- jix has joined.
17:23:26 <Sgeo> It seems to work now
17:25:22 <Sgeo> Go on DS, make two worlds
17:26:23 <tusho> Okay. Let me boot up Parallels.
17:26:42 <Sgeo> The plan: I'll make one norn, export it, copy and reimport
17:26:58 <tusho> And it either works or crashes the Warp? :P
17:26:58 <Sgeo> I send it to you, marked Kill
17:27:17 <Sgeo> Then I reimport a literal copy, send it to you after you switch worlds..
17:27:24 <tusho> Looks like my EXTREME SLAPPING KNOWLEDGE is going to be useful
17:27:31 <tusho> Sgeo: I already have one world; do I need to make two or just an extra one?
17:27:32 <Sgeo> targ norn dead
17:27:39 <Sgeo> Just make an extra one if you want
17:28:14 -!- Corun has joined.
17:28:34 <tusho> 'Your computer might be at risk
17:28:39 <tusho> Antivirus software might not be installed
17:28:43 <tusho> Click this balloon to fix this problem.'
17:28:53 <tusho> I love an OS that is too dangerous to use unless you install third-party software.
17:30:00 <tusho> stop using memory, ff
17:30:33 <Sgeo> Who are you on DS?
17:30:52 <tusho> Errr, not sure. elliotthird I think. Wait, I need to add another world.
17:31:52 <Sgeo> The list of worlds isn't updating
17:32:01 <Sgeo> Maybe it requires some sort of Warp interaction?
17:32:30 -!- tusho has quit.
17:33:52 -!- tusho has joined.
17:34:20 <tusho> Sgeo: have you found my first world
17:34:41 <Sgeo> Go online on your first world
17:34:47 <Sgeo> Norns are sent to people, not specific worlds
17:34:48 <tusho> Sgeo: shouldn't I add my second first
17:35:08 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
17:35:09 <Sgeo> The different duplicate norns must go to different worlds
17:35:44 <tusho> Uh-oh... what's my password...
17:36:23 <Sgeo> Go online in your world
17:36:27 <tusho> don't transfer yet
17:36:29 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:37:02 <tusho> Sgeo: do I have to go anywhere in particular to get it
17:37:13 <Sgeo> Come on, stupid thing, get ehird added
17:37:29 -!- jix has joined.
17:37:58 <Sgeo> I'm trying to add you to my contact list
17:38:09 <tusho> but what about my previous q
17:38:33 <Sgeo> It should arrive in the Containment Chamber, in the workshop
17:38:40 <Sgeo> But first I need to add you as a contact
17:38:43 <tusho> Was that stare blank enough, Sgeo?
17:38:50 <tusho> I'm in the initial DS room thing.
17:38:59 <Sgeo> Go to the right
17:39:04 <Sgeo> Middle of the right
17:39:08 <tusho> Now I'm in a tunnel thing
17:39:13 <Sgeo> You'll see a door, click it
17:39:28 <Sgeo> Mid door is comm room
17:39:36 <Sgeo> go back, there are icons near the top of the screen
17:39:48 <Sgeo> go back to Capitalla hub
17:39:53 <Sgeo> and click the door on the right
17:40:08 <Sgeo> That's the workshop
17:40:13 <tusho> Okay. So now I just wait?
17:40:18 <Sgeo> Containment chamber is lower right
17:40:22 <Sgeo> I need toa dd you to conacts
17:40:31 <tusho> Sgeo: Should I add you or something?
17:40:40 <Sgeo> tusho, if you can, yes
17:41:02 <Sgeo> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/active/addfriend.pl
17:41:11 <Sgeo> But for some reason it's not adding you
17:41:36 <Sgeo> Hm, now it works
17:42:19 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if his patch could, in some clinically insane way, be screwing with something
17:42:22 <tusho> Sgeo: U ARENT TALKING
17:42:58 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:43:17 <tusho> (gosh, you're late)
17:43:39 <ais523> and I was slow because I was reading Agora backlog on another computer while waiting for this one to connect to the internet
17:43:53 <tusho> ais523: read #esoteric logs
17:46:04 <tusho> (if you fix it in the text version remember to rerun notary2html :P)
17:46:15 <tusho> ais523: senddddddit
17:46:22 <ais523> tusho: what do you mean remember to rerun?
17:46:25 <Sgeo> Were you kicked offline?
17:46:32 <ais523> I put notary2html in the same shellscript as the other
17:46:54 <tusho> Sgeo: it won't reconnect
17:47:02 * Sgeo just reconnected
17:47:30 <Sgeo> Did you get the.. no I guess you didn't
17:49:16 <Sgeo> Kill him! Kill him with fire!
17:49:28 <Sgeo> I can't find the creature
17:49:39 <tusho> Sgeo: i've got 'im
17:49:49 <Sgeo> targ norn dead works
17:49:56 <tusho> how do I ge the console
17:50:30 <Sgeo> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/active/world_notes.pl?world_id=128536
17:50:34 <tusho> How do I get the console up
17:50:49 <Sgeo> Creation:6- December 2008 [24: 1:7:]
17:50:50 <tusho> Dead as a dead thing.
17:51:00 <tusho> Go to my second world now right?
17:51:16 <Sgeo> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/active/raised.pl?hid=50&uid=12187&s=1&page_start=0
17:51:47 <Sgeo> I can't seem to find the page for that Creature
17:51:49 <tusho> Do I go into my second world?
17:52:00 <tusho> He just disappeared.
17:52:02 <Sgeo> Well, just to see if anything crashes, sure
17:52:04 <tusho> In a puff of smoke.
17:52:14 <tusho> Sgeo: btw, here's the log
17:52:18 <tusho> exported from c.i. 2
17:52:37 <tusho> all at 0 mins, but at different times
17:53:05 <Sgeo> Ok, go to second world. It won't be able to enter a world where it already exists/existed
17:53:14 <Sgeo> (well, not w/o a patch anyway)
17:53:24 <tusho> Sgeo: ok just a sec
17:53:31 * Sgeo wants to see the history on the site
17:53:38 <tusho> Sgeo: i'm in hugs and doom now
17:53:40 <tusho> (not doom and hugs)
17:54:57 <Sgeo> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/active/raised.pl?hid=10&uid=14389&s=1&page_start=40&page_size=20
17:55:15 <tusho> Sgeo: Just warp it
17:55:16 <Sgeo> Did you receive it?
17:55:51 <tusho> The chamber is closed.
17:55:54 <tusho> Err not the changer
17:56:07 <Sgeo> Go back online
17:56:10 <tusho> That's the elevator
17:56:40 <Sgeo> It's named Dupey - LIV?
17:56:53 <tusho> they look identical
17:56:56 <tusho> the second one just came
17:57:08 <Sgeo> I think ? might be someone else's
17:57:20 <tusho> Sgeo: it's a baby male, and it's exactly like yours
17:57:26 <tusho> 'this creature is a native of your world/
17:57:32 <tusho> maybe it's that annoying one in the original room
17:57:35 <tusho> but I doubt it walked all the way over here
17:57:37 <tusho> and besides it just appeared
17:57:49 <Sgeo> Maybe you opened the chamber
17:57:49 <tusho> Sgeo: A creature just appeared from the warp, identical looking to yours.
17:57:51 <AnMaster> tusho, btw did you see my idea of memory mapped registers?
17:57:51 <Sgeo> Check it's history
17:57:54 <tusho> It says it's already a native of my world
17:58:38 <AnMaster> tusho, to avoid different instructions for registers and memory access, you would reserve the top few bytes of the address space to point to registers
17:58:44 <tusho> specifically, that's when the other guy got here
17:58:52 <tusho> your creature made a clone come from the warp
17:58:55 <tusho> that is a native to my world already
17:58:57 <tusho> just after it came
17:59:16 <ais523> tusho: I can't find your COE in the logs
17:59:24 <tusho> ais523: search for AIS523
17:59:31 <Sgeo> tusho, please check its history
17:59:39 <ais523> that'll be an easy fix
17:59:47 <tusho> but it can't be a native not in world at that time
17:59:47 <ais523> I'll do it at the same time as today's contract catchup
17:59:49 <tusho> since it came from the warp
18:00:00 <Sgeo> Are you sure you switched worlds?
18:00:33 <tusho> Sgeo: i think this might be the first natural clone :-P
18:00:52 <Sgeo> Well, now that the Warp is known to survive, maybe I can release the patch
18:01:07 <tusho> Sgeo: ok, dupey just spent five minutes pressing a button and making it bleep
18:01:10 <tusho> well not five minutes but a while
18:01:16 <tusho> i think this cloning thing made him go crazy
18:01:26 <Sgeo> There's no such thing as a sane norn
18:01:39 <tusho> ? just hit dupey - liv
18:03:23 <Sgeo> enum 4 0 0 vocb next
18:03:42 <Sgeo> That educates all Creatures
18:03:43 <tusho> ? is 6 minutes old
18:03:46 <tusho> exactly the same as the other guy
18:03:59 <Sgeo> I think I know what happened
18:04:08 <Sgeo> I tried to send one norn to your first world
18:04:15 <Sgeo> It never arrived successfully
18:04:20 <Sgeo> So you open the second world
18:04:37 <Sgeo> Two norns of the same moniker arrive at your second world
18:04:51 <Sgeo> One makes it in normally, the other is automatically cloned by pray impo
18:05:15 <Sgeo> Let's try it again?
18:05:25 <tusho> they both refer to themselves
18:05:29 <Sgeo> Or there's someone else I can dump another dupey on
18:05:33 <tusho> AnMaster: Creatures Docking Station
18:05:38 <tusho> Sgeo: they keep saying dupey - liv tirde
18:05:45 <AnMaster> tusho, well what kind of game is it?
18:05:47 <tusho> oh, and I just convinced one of them to eat elevator
18:05:47 <Sgeo> The ? keeps saying it?
18:05:53 <Sgeo> tusho, they often do that
18:06:03 <tusho> AnMaster: an AI game
18:06:08 <Sgeo> (eating elevator I mean)
18:06:10 <tusho> there's these little creatures called norns and they're dumb as hell
18:06:17 <tusho> you control a hand cursor that can speak
18:06:31 <tusho> you have to stop them from killing themselves and teach them what 'eat' and 'food' means because they're dumb as all hell
18:06:37 <Sgeo> I'll send another dupey to someone else
18:06:41 <AnMaster> <tusho> there's these little creatures called norns and they're dumb as hell <-- s/norn/lemming/ and it would still be true
18:06:43 <tusho> I want another dupey
18:06:46 <tusho> I want a whole family of dupeys
18:06:49 <tusho> AnMaster: but lemmings don't learn
18:06:51 <Sgeo> Make another world
18:06:54 <tusho> and lemmings don't walk about as they wish and ignore you
18:07:07 <tusho> Sgeo: your next project should be giving to the same world
18:07:21 <AnMaster> but the statement "they are dumb as hell" is still true
18:07:28 * tusho tries to make dupey - liv eat dupey - liv
18:07:32 <Sgeo> tusho, that's all the effect was
18:07:48 <tusho> 'dupey - liv very patient'
18:08:01 <tusho> AnMaster: one of them just said that they were very patient
18:08:05 <tusho> which is a pretty odd thing to say just like that
18:08:19 <AnMaster> tusho, got screenshots of this game?
18:08:25 * Sgeo has a few million
18:08:34 <Sgeo> Mostly of odd situations I managed to engineer?
18:08:53 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/ some of those are DS
18:08:55 <tusho> http://www.generation5.org/content/2001/images/cds02.jpg
18:09:06 <tusho> http://www.gamershell.com/static/screenshots/3423/53661_full.jpg
18:09:56 <tusho> it'd be crazy in 3d
18:10:10 <tusho> Sgeo: how do I repeat last thing said
18:10:18 <Sgeo> ctrl-S I think
18:10:31 <tusho> i told it to eat hand
18:10:38 <tusho> and looked at the hand constantly
18:10:44 <Sgeo> because you said hand
18:10:54 <tusho> but I said eat hand
18:10:57 <Sgeo> try "hit hand"
18:10:57 <tusho> not stare at hand :<
18:11:26 <tusho> Sgeo: it bashes into it with its head
18:11:27 <tusho> but nothing happens
18:11:49 <Sgeo> Well, saying "hand" activates the hand neuron in the noun lobe, which does stuff with the comb lobes, which reaches the attn lobe
18:12:00 <Sgeo> The hand doesn't turn red?
18:12:16 <tusho> what was that pain command again
18:12:31 <tusho> AnMaster: not really
18:12:34 <tusho> it's the CAOS scripting language
18:12:39 <tusho> you have to press ctrl-shift-c to get the console
18:12:47 <tusho> so it's not exactly intended for people not making extensions and stuff
18:12:58 <tusho> but you can set the pain level to 100%
18:12:59 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/C3/DS_CAOS_Codes
18:13:02 <tusho> 'dupey - liv extremely high up'
18:13:06 <tusho> GREAT OBSERVATION THERE
18:13:22 <Sgeo> There's probably an easier way than the command I mentioeed
18:13:30 <Sgeo> Maybe just setting the pain chemical
18:13:41 <Sgeo> sway writ norn 0 1 0 2 0 3 0 4
18:13:55 <Sgeo> The 1 2 3 and 4 just need to be greater or equal to 1 I think
18:14:03 <Sgeo> It's just I think 1 2 3 4 is easy to remember
18:14:35 <tusho> I forced them into adulthood
18:14:48 <Sgeo> targ norn chem 148 1
18:14:55 <Sgeo> Should fill the pain chemical to full
18:15:16 <tusho> he didn't like that
18:15:27 <tusho> aww. how do I undo that
18:15:34 <Sgeo> targ norn chem 148 -1
18:15:49 <Sgeo> But I don't know if that really undoes the pain it felt
18:16:07 <Sgeo> Chemical 125 controls aging
18:16:26 <Sgeo> targ norn chem 125 1 will extend its lifespan, targ norn chem 125 -1 will age it to death
18:16:32 <Sgeo> as would targ norn ages 8
18:16:56 <tusho> Sgeo: {To induce labour in a stuck pregnancy (for the currently selected norn) }
18:17:00 <tusho> i did that on the male norns
18:17:01 <Sgeo> Instead of this "targ norn" stuff, surround it with enum 4 0 0 ... next to do it to all creaturews
18:17:12 <Sgeo> Males can get pregnant with some CAOS
18:17:56 <Sgeo> Put a genome in slot 1
18:18:46 <tusho> I just killed that guy's clone in front of him.
18:18:46 <AnMaster> tusho, how does that odd scripting language look?
18:18:51 <tusho> He went back to playing with the elevator
18:18:57 <tusho> AnMaster: {sway writ norn 0 1 0 2 0 3 0 4}
18:19:03 <tusho> {inst rtar family genus species stpt seta va00 twin targ 1 mvto x y }
18:19:12 <tusho> all opcodes are 4 chars because you can make an efficient hash table with them
18:19:16 <tusho> The first puts the norn into pain.
18:19:20 <tusho> The first, apparently:
18:19:21 <tusho> {To clone an agent - Replace family, genus, species with the appropriate numbers of the agent. Replace x, y with the coordinates of where the new agent should be placed. Clone will fail to appear if insuffecient space is present at x, y coordinates }
18:19:37 <Sgeo> inst makes it atomic
18:19:37 <tusho> Sgeo: Can I revive a dead norn?
18:19:43 <Sgeo> tusho, not without hex editing
18:19:55 <AnMaster> Sgeo, and can you do hex editing too!?
18:20:06 <Sgeo> My Creatures project is to attempt to revive dead norns
18:20:23 <tusho> you can hex edit any file
18:20:31 <tusho> anyway, regular players don't touch this stuff
18:20:34 <tusho> I just like messing up norns.
18:20:42 <tusho> you can't win creatures
18:20:52 <tusho> AnMaster: you can't 'win' the game
18:21:08 <tusho> keeping a long-running world with good genetics in the norns and keeping them breeding
18:21:15 <tusho> is probably the cloest thing
18:21:53 <Sgeo> Often you get immortals and fast-agers
18:21:59 -!- ais523_ has joined.
18:22:09 <tusho> Sgeo: apparently he's "quite ill"
18:22:12 <tusho> before that he was "ill"
18:22:25 <Sgeo> Use the HoverDoc
18:22:34 <Sgeo> Ctrl-H to find it
18:22:41 <tusho> its in another world
18:22:42 <Sgeo> Right-click, and drop it on the norn
18:23:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:23:03 <Sgeo> Use the scroll on the mouse if you have one
18:23:16 <tusho> hungry for startch
18:23:16 <Sgeo> If not, put it in the Inventory, which is the GUI element at the lower right
18:23:24 * tusho wonders where he can get some seeds
18:23:30 <Sgeo> I think "quite ill" might be something else
18:23:40 <Sgeo> Ctrl-Shift-E makes food drop from the hand
18:24:10 <Sgeo> There are also seeds in ther
18:24:47 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
18:25:58 <Sgeo> Was that norn in the upper left area of the workshop?
18:26:14 <Sgeo> Because that place tends to be a breeding ground for bacteria for some reason
18:27:10 <Sgeo> Click the right-pointing arrow thing on the edge
18:27:15 <Sgeo> Look through the options
18:29:59 <Sgeo> tusho, why meh?
18:31:17 <AnMaster> signed and unsigned integers have the same value for positive values right?
18:31:40 <Sgeo> Not if the positive value is large enough, such that it's negative in the signed integer..
18:32:01 <AnMaster> Sgeo, well true but here I want to know signed 0 == unsigned 0
18:32:46 * Sgeo 'd think so, but not sure
18:33:50 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
18:36:41 <tusho> mwahahahhahaha, I am evil
18:36:51 <tusho> I am combining the two of the worst languages ever made
18:37:30 <tusho> malbolge and intercal aren't BAD
18:37:37 <tusho> and i'm talking about languages intended for serious use
18:37:39 <Sgeo> tusho, CAOS is one of them, I bet
18:37:53 <ais523> AnMaster: I implemented something else in C-INTERCAL instead
18:38:04 <ais523> but at least it showed up lots of bugs in the code
18:38:11 <ais523> that would have affected fffungi too
18:38:14 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? you aren't going to do ffungi?
18:38:15 <ais523> which I'm still planning to do
18:38:16 <tusho> COBOL sucks, but no
18:38:21 <tusho> this is stuff people say is awesome right now
18:38:26 <ais523> it's just I was working on something else
18:38:48 <ais523> I defined plus minus times divided
18:38:51 <ais523> and it actually worked
18:39:07 <tusho> Sgeo: Arc is Paul Graham's shitty lisp dialect.
18:39:22 <ais523> AnMaster: being able to write expressions with + and - in will make INTERCAL a lot more usable
18:39:25 <tusho> He took 5 years to release it; and it turns out it's a half-baked, wafer-thin crappy toy scheme-alike written on top of PLT Scheme.
18:39:35 <AnMaster> ais523, is that really the goal though? ;P
18:39:40 <tusho> And what's more, he never shut up about it before or after release.
18:39:47 <tusho> Also, it has an incredibly shitty web library.
18:39:51 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, in this case, I don't mind INTERCAL being usable as long as it's usable in an unusual way
18:39:54 <tusho> (Before it can even do, say, useful arithmetic or file access.)
18:40:12 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I thought a "plus, substract, then multiply and finally divide" operator
18:40:21 <tusho> My idea: Write an Arc->PHP compiler in PHP. Then you'll be able to run the shitty web apps written in the shitty toy lisp on top of a shitty web language.
18:41:21 <AnMaster> php isn't that bad, there are worse languages
18:41:29 <AnMaster> while I don't like php there are worse
18:41:43 <tusho> it's terribly evil
18:41:48 <AnMaster> damn I'm up at 137 instructions because I missed some
18:41:58 <tusho> especially as the arcist idiots will say 'OMG! NOW WE HAVE AWESOME DEPLOYMENT!'
18:43:27 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:57:25 <Sgeo> tusho, try mapk
18:57:30 <Sgeo> Not in a good world though
18:57:36 <tusho> Sgeo: i shut it down
19:00:31 <AnMaster> should a stack grow downards or upwards?
19:00:38 <AnMaster> and where should the call stack be placed?
19:01:51 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: you should somehow involve ruby in this- that could make it significantly worse
19:02:04 -!- revcompgeek has joined.
19:02:04 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: let's troll about how ruby sucks ha ha
19:02:33 <tusho> because $list_of_entirely_untrue_reasons_why_ruby_sucks_showing_that_i_have_not_actually_used_it_and_just_like_saying_how_it_sucks
19:03:08 <RodgerTheGreat> AnMaster: if you're implementing a stack with arrays, growing down makes sense- it makes it very easy to resize the array later on
19:03:17 <AnMaster> however I do find perl confusing because 1) every single char (or close) seems to have a special meaning 2) there are a lot of ways to do everything)
19:03:31 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, no, I'm implementing inside an adress space
19:03:42 <RodgerTheGreat> but as with most data structure decisions, arbitrary choices can be fine if you're consistent
19:03:52 <ais523> AnMaster: I understand your concerns, having alpha chars having a special meaning can be confusing
19:03:54 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, a byte code interpreter
19:03:57 <ais523> I think the numbers are all just numbers though
19:04:14 <AnMaster> ais523, HAH WHAT A COMFORT! *runs*
19:04:52 <RodgerTheGreat> if you want a stack and your code all in the same memory, the way I think MIPS does it is code starting at the top and going down, and the stack growing up from the bottom toward it
19:05:31 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, so program counter/instruction pointer counts downwards?
19:05:55 <ais523> stack goes backwards from the end of the segment
19:06:20 <AnMaster> and what about call stack then?
19:06:29 <AnMaster> should it be placed near the end and grow upwards
19:07:30 <AnMaster> but should it grow up or down?
19:07:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I tend to think of memory as arranged from low addresses to high addresses vertically. 00000000 is at the "top" and FFFFFFFF is at the "bottom"
19:07:41 <AnMaster> does x86 even have a separate call stack or?
19:07:48 <ais523> AnMaster: call stack's mixed with variable stack
19:08:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well in my code it isn't so far
19:10:52 <AnMaster> ais523, btw it is pointless trying to use splint on cfunge, splint get parsing errors on even simple C99 stuff like: for (int i = 0; ...)
19:11:04 <ais523> it gets parsing errors on C-INTERCAL, too
19:11:08 <ais523> at least some of the files
19:11:23 <AnMaster> ais523, for cfunge it only works on like 2-3 files
19:11:43 <AnMaster> and only when you ifdef stuff in certain shared headers out
19:25:34 <AnMaster> well if anyone want to see my early steps towards the byte code interpreter there is now a bzr repo
19:25:45 <AnMaster> bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/ansembler
19:27:30 * ais523 starts trying to compile cfunge with ick
19:28:11 <tusho> ais523: how would that work
19:28:22 <ais523> tusho: it links C files to INTERCAL files when compiling
19:28:32 <ais523> of course it shells out to gcc to compile the C
19:28:38 <ais523> after doing a few ick-specific tweaks to it
19:28:51 <ais523> for things like COME FROM
19:29:54 <AnMaster> ais523, don't use boehm-gc btw, it got serious bugs in cfunge, and needs a very recent boehm-gc version, + it slows down a fair bit
19:30:24 <AnMaster> ais523, apart from that you need some other defines too to make it compile, oh and you need -std=c99
19:30:25 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... I'll need some INTERCALLY way to do -D
19:32:19 <AnMaster> ais523, well what flags you *will* need at least: -std=c99 -DDISABLE_GC -DUSE32 -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED
19:32:22 <AnMaster> -pedantic -Wall -Wextra -Wformat=2 -Wwrite-strings -Wa-lot-of-other-flags-see-the-cmake-file
19:32:42 <AnMaster> ais523, CMakeLists.txt to be exact
19:33:40 <tusho> AnMaster: nothing needs -W to compile
19:33:43 <AnMaster> ais523, the "-D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED" are needed on glibc systems to get the needed defines
19:33:51 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed it was just show off ;P
19:34:21 <AnMaster> it will compile with -Werror and a lot of warning flags if you want to
19:37:17 -!- revcompgeek has left (?).
19:42:51 <ais523> anyway, cfunge hit a Schrodingbug in C-INTERCAL
19:43:05 <ais523> the code's obviously wrong, and looking at it there's no obvious reason why it ever worked at all
19:43:09 <ais523> I'll have to look into that
19:43:54 <AnMaster> ais523, is it on your side or mine?
19:44:06 <AnMaster> tell me what this bug is when you found out!
19:44:14 <ais523> ah wait, I see what happened
19:44:32 <ais523> it's mixing the code for searching for an expansion library (=no extension) with the code for including a C file (=.c extension)
19:44:46 <ais523> the issue that the files are being double-extended, so gcc can't find main.c.c
19:45:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well you will need to replace main.c totally I think
19:45:24 <AnMaster> it contains nothing useful for fffungi really
19:45:35 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I'll be replacing it
19:45:40 <AnMaster> just parameter parsing and such
19:46:04 <AnMaster> one thing to note however is that argc/argv variables are in main.c and need to be moved elsewhere
19:46:25 <ais523> I wrote break rather than continue
19:46:35 <ais523> thus causing subtle bugs when more than 2 files were involved
19:47:33 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I suspect the PERL fingerprint *could* interact badly with ick
19:47:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it both fork()s execv()s and then uses some pipes to talk to child process
19:49:22 <AnMaster> ais523, could that cause issues with C-INTERCAL?
19:49:32 <ais523> AnMaster: probably it's fine
19:49:52 <ais523> C-INTERCAL's surprisingly robust against everything but call stack tricks
19:50:22 <AnMaster> ais523, because that fingerprint is one main reason I'm dropping Boehm-GC, if Boehm-GC is used to malloc there, then memory corruptions happens on the stack
19:50:31 -!- jix has joined.
19:51:02 <AnMaster> and valgrind doesn't find any issues
19:52:06 <ais523> AnMaster: Perl is refcounted IIRC
19:52:20 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe, but that shouldn't affect a execv()
19:52:30 <AnMaster> I just fork() and execv() perl
19:55:50 <ais523> hmm... gcc seems not to be in c99 mode by default, I thought it was
19:56:08 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed that is the case
19:56:37 <AnMaster> -DDISABLE_GC -DUSE32 are needed to get sane behaviour from cfunge in your case
19:56:51 <AnMaster> -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED are needed on glibc based system to expose some definitions
19:57:38 <AnMaster> well you could add them before the first include in global.h but...
19:57:42 <ais523> AnMaster: atm there's no way to pass commandlineargs to gcc through ick, so I'm just editing the #defines into global.h temporarily for testing until I can think of a better way
19:58:21 <AnMaster> ais523, as for -std=c99 you need to pass it on command line
19:58:36 <AnMaster> I don't know of any way to do it in the C code itself
19:58:59 <AnMaster> I don't think that is possible even
19:59:12 <AnMaster> so you need to pass that parameter for cfunge :P
19:59:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I only get 4 errors if I #define restrict to the null string
19:59:32 <ais523> all for for loop initial declarations
19:59:35 <AnMaster> ais523, well... that is unsupported!
19:59:38 <ais523> which I think could be rewritten
19:59:47 <ais523> AnMaster: restrict's just an optimiser hint
19:59:52 <AnMaster> then you are using lots of GCC extensions
20:00:05 <ais523> well, it's called gnu99
20:00:21 <ais523> I'm surprised it doesn't support restrict, though
20:00:29 <ais523> ah, that would explain a lot
20:00:49 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway why not just add support for -std=c99 passing?
20:01:16 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I know, but the issue is figuring out where the args would be passed from
20:01:19 <AnMaster> ais523, because for some cases the gnu extensions got a different semantic than the C99 ones
20:01:29 <AnMaster> like inline on non-static functionbs
20:01:42 <AnMaster> so I got no idea if gnu89 will work correctly
20:05:52 <AnMaster> ais523, so really trying to convert it to gnu89 is totally unsupported from my side?
20:06:15 <AnMaster> what about building it as a static library at compile time? and then linking that?
20:06:36 <ais523> that's what'll be done in the final version
20:06:46 <ais523> right now I'm just wondering how well it works if just linked in as source
20:06:54 <AnMaster> then you can use some autoconf macro to find c99 for current compiler iirc
20:07:03 <AnMaster> however that is global for project afaik not per file
20:07:19 <ais523> well, C-INTERCAL's legal C99 too, I think, even though I don't use its features
20:07:34 <ais523> apart from I use // comments temporarily when debugging, then I can easily find them all by recompiling as strict C89
20:07:37 <AnMaster> ais523, there may be some rare corner cases where it isn't valid
20:08:25 <AnMaster> well cfunge use a lot of // comments :P *thinks of hilarious result trying to compile cfunge as strict C89*
20:08:36 <AnMaster> it will fail in a lot of places
20:08:53 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw, not sure if you noticed it, but all of cfunge isn't in src
20:09:06 <AnMaster> it is an external hash library
20:09:27 <AnMaster> even though it is quite special cased
20:10:00 <AnMaster> in case of linking errors this could be important to know
20:10:11 <ais523> I haven't got to the stage where it links yet
20:10:27 <AnMaster> also that hash library may be partly C99-ified
20:12:28 <ais523> AnMaster: C99 preprocesses the same way as C89 on cfunge, right?
20:13:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't think I use any varadic macros
20:14:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember using a varadic macro in some project at some point
20:14:20 <ais523> well, it seemed to preprocess alright
20:14:22 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway why do you want to turn cfunge into c89?
20:14:26 <ais523> but presumably variadic macros would do that
20:14:42 <AnMaster> also gnu89 *does* support varadic macros
20:14:50 <AnMaster> though not in same form iirc *unsure about that*
20:15:17 <ais523> oh well, the method I'm using is to use file extension .c99 for C99 files
20:15:27 <ais523> so I can just preprocess them as C99 too
20:15:55 * Sgeo actually wrote a decent README once
20:16:31 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I wish that you change HANDPRINT in global.h slightly in your version
20:17:09 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that would make sense
20:17:15 <ais523> what if I use unmodified source, though?
20:17:21 <ais523> that's what I'm aiming for
20:18:00 <ais523> personally I think the handprint should be differnet anyway
20:18:25 <AnMaster> but you will need to modify somewhat, rip out main.c and replace it in some way right?
20:19:21 <ais523> AnMaster: actually I use linker tricks to rip out the old main
20:19:34 <ais523> by ignoring the main function it creates in favour of mine
20:19:55 <AnMaster> ais523, well that's... interesting
20:20:08 <AnMaster> anyway you should indeed change HANDPRING
20:20:25 <ais523> AnMaster: is the handprint stored in an externally-visible variable?
20:20:32 <ais523> if so, I can use linker tricks to change it too
20:20:44 <ais523> ah, that's harder to change
20:21:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well such a small change would be rather simple to maintain wouldn't it?
20:21:26 <AnMaster> you could even do some sed trick at compile time
20:21:45 <ais523> it's not that intercally though
20:21:47 <AnMaster> while version fingerprint would change every now and then, the HANDPRINT wont ever
20:21:57 <ais523> the horrible breaky way would be to modify the handprint directly in the executable
20:22:08 <ais523> I'm not doing that, though
20:22:23 <AnMaster> ais523, because that could cause collisions
20:25:05 <AnMaster> anyway just maintaining a small patch like that is easy
20:25:45 <AnMaster> you will need to update it occasionally if you do it like a patch becase the version number is next to it, and thus patch context will change, or you could sed it at compile time and never need to worry about that again
20:26:21 <AnMaster> ais523, still you need some source changes, to be exact: src/fingerprints/fingerprints.h
20:26:30 <AnMaster> to contain your extra fingerprint too
20:26:50 <ais523> also for the fungespace metadata stuff
20:26:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and then there is the load from string instruction too right?
20:27:03 <ais523> yes, but I can do that in my code, I think
20:28:22 <AnMaster> also you will need to replace a bit more than main() it seems there
20:28:30 <AnMaster> because interpreterRun() takes as argument a filename
20:28:43 <AnMaster> main() doesn't load the file, interpreterRun() does
20:28:55 <AnMaster> main() is only option parsing really
20:29:15 <ais523> well, also I think for technical reasons interpreterMainLoop may need to be split into two functions, one which is the body of the loop, the other which just calls it repeatedly
20:29:37 <AnMaster> interpreterMainLoop is already like that
20:29:42 <ais523> it's so that the outside wrapper function can be made a C-INTERCAL interface function
20:29:44 <AnMaster> it just calls ExecuteInstruction()
20:29:57 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I know, but there seems to be more in the loop than that
20:30:05 <AnMaster> yes there is some thread stuff
20:30:28 <AnMaster> "#else /* CONCURRENT_FUNGE */"
20:30:32 * Sgeo impregnates a norn with herself
20:31:01 <AnMaster> ais523, that non-threading one just does three things:
20:31:09 <AnMaster> 1) get next instruction from funge space
20:31:19 <AnMaster> 2) optionally print some debug info
20:31:49 <AnMaster> the concurrent version does a bit more
20:32:05 <ais523> yes, I'd basically have to rewrite interpreterMainLoop for the interface-with-INTERCAL version
20:32:16 <ais523> so that I can stop executing the Befunge program and start executing INTERCAL instead
20:32:36 <AnMaster> well the non-concurrent version is fairly simple!
20:32:59 <AnMaster> ais523, you will need to run parts of interpreterRun too
20:33:35 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge need random srandom() for conformant operation, so I hope intercal doesn't need it to be predictable
20:33:44 <ais523> no, that would be silly
20:33:50 <ais523> but INTERCAL already srandoms
20:33:57 <AnMaster> ais523, well it is intercal... you never know ;P
20:34:04 <ais523> so I'll have to be careful not to reseed repeatedly
20:34:20 <AnMaster> if (!FungeSpaceLoad(filename)) {
20:34:20 <AnMaster> fprintf(stderr, "Failed to process file \"%s\": %s\n", filename, strerror(errno));
20:34:45 <AnMaster> skip next block with ip list (that's concurrent)
20:34:51 <ais523> well, it'll be "load from value of global variable"
20:34:54 <ais523> which'll probably be a string
20:35:07 <ais523> what's in an IP object, by the way?
20:35:12 <ais523> I may have to end up storing several
20:35:21 <ais523> as in, does it contain pointers to things?
20:35:32 <ais523> How would I duplicate them, and destroy them?
20:35:34 <AnMaster> see definition of struct there
20:35:49 <AnMaster> there are functions for duplications and destruction when concurrency is enabled
20:37:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not sure in what meaning you plan to destroy/create them, but possibly you may need to copy fingerHRTItimestamp along, depending on the exact way you interpret specs
20:38:07 <ais523> AnMaster: basically to save the IP in the Befunge program while destroying stack
20:38:22 <AnMaster> I'm not sure I get what you mean there
20:38:28 <ais523> I can't store it in an auto, I'll have to temporarily copy it to a global for safekeeping
20:38:37 <ais523> actually, it probably isn't a problem
20:38:47 <AnMaster> so just a pointer to copy somewhere
20:38:49 <ais523> definitely not a problem then
20:39:38 <AnMaster> ais523, you can see where cfunge store them: interpreter.c line 50-54
20:40:00 <AnMaster> ip list is, again, only for concurrent stuff
20:40:44 <AnMaster> which you indeed can't support in a sane way
20:41:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so just ignore everything between #ifdef CONCURRENT_FUNGE and the next #else (or if such doesn't exist, the next #endif ;P)
20:41:53 <AnMaster> err not "next" make that "matching"
20:42:00 <ais523> interpreter.c99:72: warning: C99 inline functions are not supported; using GNU89
20:42:01 <AnMaster> as there are some nested cases ;P
20:42:21 <ais523> gcc (GCC) 4.2.3 (Ubuntu 4.2.3-2ubuntu7)
20:42:32 <AnMaster> it doesn't generate that warning
20:42:43 <ais523> presumably it gets it wrong anyway, though
20:42:48 <ais523> just doesn't warn about it
20:43:02 <AnMaster> gcc (GCC) 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.24, using dmd 1.020)) (Gentoo 4.1.2 p1.0.2)
20:43:46 <AnMaster> <ais523> presumably it gets it wrong anyway, though <ais523> just doesn't warn about it <-- probably, but it isn't much of an issue I think, possibly slightly less effective code
20:44:05 <AnMaster> for the inline difference the effect is in no way disasterous
20:44:10 <AnMaster> but for other stuff it could be
20:44:29 <AnMaster> I just have no intention on supporting compiling as gnu89
20:44:50 <ais523> what does gnu89 inline mean anyway?
20:44:53 <AnMaster> because it could break badly and would be hard to track down
20:44:57 <ais523> IIRC c99 inline means "compile as fast as possible"
20:45:08 <ais523> sorry "compile so that it runs as fast as possible"
20:45:21 <ais523> maybe also prevents pointers being taken to the function, not sure on that
20:45:27 <AnMaster> it means "place the code inside the calllers function body" in both cases
20:45:34 <AnMaster> for "static inline" there is no difference
20:45:46 -!- ihope___ has joined.
20:45:55 <AnMaster> however "extern inline" and "inline" without extern have reversed meanings beteween gnu89 and C99 iirc
20:46:03 -!- ihope___ has changed nick to ihope.
20:46:05 <AnMaster> but I refer to GNU manual in this case
20:47:07 <ais523> anyway, it almost worked
20:47:15 <ais523> just some link errors as expected due to some files not being linked in
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20:47:57 <ais523> ah, there are also subdirs of src
20:48:00 <ais523> which presumably also need to be linked
20:48:57 <AnMaster> for fingerprints there are two layers
20:49:03 <AnMaster> for everything else just one layer iirc
20:49:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I like structuring my code in a logic way ;P
20:50:02 <ais523> well, for my tests I'll just dump them all into the same dir to make things easier, but the final version will keep them in their original locations and with the right file extensions
20:50:25 <AnMaster> ais523, also you can't dump in same without some crazy symlinks I think
20:50:34 <AnMaster> as they got stuff like #include "../headerfile.h"
20:51:06 <AnMaster> (well when I coded it I didn't think that would be an issue!)
20:52:24 * ais523 writes some crazy symlinks
20:52:39 <AnMaster> ais523, sure that is really easier?
20:52:52 <ais523> no, but I'm doing it anyway
20:53:19 <AnMaster> ais523, well what are you checking for currently?
20:53:28 <ais523> actually I used hardlinks
20:53:44 <ais523> not that it matters, I'm going to delete the directory tree soon anyway
20:53:47 <AnMaster> well anyway, what are you trying to check for atm on the source?
20:54:03 <ais523> AnMaster: just trying to get it to link
20:54:11 <ais523> ick requires the names of all relevant files on the command-line
20:54:15 <ais523> so I'm just using wildcards
20:54:23 <AnMaster> well so does cfunge build system
20:54:30 <AnMaster> FILE(GLOB CFUNGE_SOURCES RELATIVE ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}
20:54:49 <AnMaster> ais523, sorry if I mentioned that bit too late ;P
20:56:37 * AnMaster goes to get some food, will be back soon
21:03:34 <ais523> just -lm was missing...
21:03:42 <AnMaster> ah yes that is for some fingerprints
21:04:01 <ais523> ick -be stub.i *.c99 */*.c99 */*/*.c99 ../lib/*/*.c99 was the command I used, by the way
21:04:14 <ais523> after renaming all the C files to end .c99
21:04:16 <AnMaster> ah so you gave up "all in one dir"?
21:04:23 <ais523> yes, I handled most of the dependencies
21:04:31 <ais523> but things like ../fingerprints were confusing to handle
21:05:16 <AnMaster> um you mean ../fingerprints.h?
21:05:19 <ais523> I think I'll program C-INTERCAL to interpret "libm.a" on the command-line as equivalent to -lm on GCC
21:05:34 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I mean like ../fingerprints/HRTI/HRTI.h
21:05:56 <ais523> that was just an example
21:05:58 <ais523> but it was that sort of thing
21:06:38 <AnMaster> ais523, interesting, well libm is certainly needed. when I implement the SOCK fingerprint in the future (it handles sockets), libnsl could be needed on *some platforms*
21:06:52 <AnMaster> not trying to give you a headache, except intercal already gave that to me ;P
21:07:01 <ais523> nah, don't worry about it
21:07:11 <ais523> I enjoy trying to deal with all the strange interactions between different parts of the language
21:07:16 <ais523> and different parts of the code
21:07:40 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway glibc systems won't need libnsl and probably shouldn't use it
21:07:50 <AnMaster> not sure about systems like freebsd though
21:08:58 <AnMaster> I know cfunge works on freebsd and it did work on openbsd at one point at least. it works with some changes on windows with mingw. oh and of course it works on linux. apart from that: no clue
21:09:24 <ais523> you were targetting posix, presumably
21:12:06 <AnMaster> ais523, but I can't guarantee I haven't made mistakes that makes it unportable
21:12:20 <AnMaster> for example: big endian? don't have any such POSIX system to test on
21:12:27 <AnMaster> and I don't plan to port it to mac os 7
21:14:04 <AnMaster> it is in some box in the attic I think
21:18:57 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I hope it is portable to all POSIX :)
21:19:08 <AnMaster> I don't really care about windows
21:19:25 <Sgeo> The Warp is alive
21:22:35 <ais523> I'm still thinking about how to do libraries best
21:22:45 <ais523> the command line arg code in C-INTERCAL is really fragile
21:23:21 <AnMaster> ais523, or you could drop some of the fingerprints, the core doesn't need libm. just the fingerprints
21:23:38 <ais523> yes, but then I'd have to figure out how to compile it again
21:23:43 <ais523> does it work if the fingerprints aren't linked in?
21:24:03 <AnMaster> you will need to change fingerprints.h to remove some entries from the big array there, but then it will work
21:24:11 <AnMaster> it is just an array with some metadata
21:24:30 <AnMaster> oh btw you may hate to hear this: in the future I plan some fingerprints to be loaded with dlopen()
21:24:43 <ais523> no way that would work on DOS, but cfunge probably doesn't work there anyway
21:24:45 <AnMaster> I'm sure it would make stuff hard for you so I may not do it
21:25:05 <AnMaster> ais523, well, you have to strip quite a few fingerprints and then it works on windows I think
21:26:05 <AnMaster> ais523, and that was a few months ago, I got no idea if it still is that bad, or worse
21:26:20 <AnMaster> anyway I probably won't do the dlopen thing
21:26:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I will be happy to not try to mess it up too badly for you if you get this working
21:27:05 <ais523> meh, for the time being I'll just hardcode the -lm in C-INTERCAL
21:27:24 <AnMaster> only changes that are likely to happen are: 1) new fingerprints 2) new funge space code 3) small bugfixes
21:27:39 <AnMaster> other than that cfunge is pretty finished
21:27:48 <AnMaster> and the public interface to funge space won't change
21:28:31 <ais523> ok, it compiled and linked
21:28:45 <ais523> and it's a nop, just as I planned
21:28:53 <ais523> now all I have to do is write the linking code...
21:30:03 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that is the hard part eh?
21:30:30 <AnMaster> btw doesn't ick link dynamic libraries at all?
21:30:52 <ais523> have you seen how bad INTERCAL is at arithmetic?
21:31:03 <ais523> there's a floating point library for INTERCAL, but it works with bitwise manipulation
21:31:29 <AnMaster> I fully admit not understanding most of intercal
21:31:34 <ais523> AnMaster: well there are only 5 basic operators, and they're all bitwise
21:32:09 <AnMaster> ais523, interesting, how will data be passed between funge and intercal?
21:32:27 <ais523> AnMaster: I was planning to add a fingerprint command for the Funge to get and set INTERCAL variables
21:32:32 <ais523> that's much how I do it with C
21:32:42 <AnMaster> see the fingerprints: FPDP and FPSP for some floating point
21:32:45 <ais523> it's how INTERCAL programs pass data within themselves, too
21:33:21 <AnMaster> what will you call your fingerprint?
21:33:37 <ais523> I've been thinking about that, actually
21:33:44 <ais523> I could fit 6 chars in if the name's in Baudot
21:33:50 <ais523> because there are 32 bits to play with
21:34:10 <ais523> I think I'll use an ASCII name, though
21:34:14 <AnMaster> also the scripts of cfunge will complain
21:34:28 <AnMaster> because I'm quite sure things will go very bad in auto generation
21:34:53 <ais523> I'm thinking an acronym, maybe based on Intercal Integration
21:35:22 <AnMaster> it will accept some other too with warnings
21:35:43 <AnMaster> utils/gen_fprint_list.sh line 82-90
21:36:52 <AnMaster> ais523, but please conform to [A-Z0-9]{4}, because other stuff could cause C errors, due to function names
21:36:57 <ais523> I think I'll stop working on fffungi for now, maybe continue tomorrow
21:37:15 <ais523> AnMaster: because I need to think about this a bit more
21:37:21 <ais523> and I've been programming continuously for ages
21:37:38 <ais523> well, I have other things to do too
21:37:57 <AnMaster> wait? are you telling me there is something else besides esotericness?
21:38:25 <AnMaster> well I got summer holidays now so :)
21:38:38 <ais523> so have I, but I still have other things to do...
21:39:21 <ais523> at least it's going somewhere
21:39:33 <ais523> and I'm pretty convinced that there isn't some big contradiction making it impossible
21:40:05 <AnMaster> ais523, just a lot of small issues
21:40:43 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway if you have problems linking you certainly don't want to use boehm-gc, it need two more *dynamic* libraries
21:40:53 <AnMaster> oh wait they could be static too
21:41:01 <AnMaster> I actually do them static for binary releases
21:41:09 <ais523> the problem's to do with trying to get ick to give the right command line to gcc
21:41:11 <ais523> it's long enough as it is
21:41:36 <AnMaster> but that will be less of a problem when cfunge itself is a static library?
21:41:53 <AnMaster> also to avoid name collisions it should be libickcfunge.a or something like that
21:42:02 <AnMaster> who knows if I want to make a libcfunge.a in the future
21:42:05 <ais523> I generally do libick then two characters
21:42:13 <ais523> so libickcf for instance
21:42:20 <AnMaster> I use cf as prefix in some internal parts
21:42:44 * AnMaster points vaguely in the direction of support.h
21:44:26 <ais523> grr... why are the IOCCC so slow in releasing the solutions?
21:44:46 <ais523> they selected the winners last September
22:04:29 <AnMaster> ais523, so when I'm here (I may be away tomorrow) are there any more cfunge questions?
22:04:37 <AnMaster> load from string I could write for you
22:04:49 <ais523> yes, that would be nice
22:05:10 <ais523> the string itself will come from a stub .c file that just defines one global variable, which is the string
22:05:15 <ais523> but I'll pass it to you as an argument
22:05:43 <AnMaster> well yes const char * restrict program
22:09:01 <AnMaster> ais523, well I think that is finished, haven't test compiled it yet
22:09:30 <AnMaster> ais523, was just some changes to the loop of FungeSpaceLoad really that was needed
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22:10:11 <AnMaster> well it compiles, haven't tested it though
22:11:57 <AnMaster> ais523, you can see the original version first and the modified after at http://rafb.net/p/3vJs6I41.html
22:12:41 <ais523> yes, it's a pretty small change
22:13:01 <AnMaster> and thus I think it will work even without testing it
22:14:05 <AnMaster> ais523, will it be possible to link C code, intercal code AND befunge code at once?
22:14:22 <ais523> probably not two Befunge programs simultaneously, though
22:14:42 <ais523> however there's a potential issue with namespace collisions between C and cfunge
22:14:47 <AnMaster> well indeed I use one static variable there
22:15:08 <AnMaster> well I don't feel like redesigning the whole code to use prefixes everywhere
22:15:30 <ais523> I added the prefixes with search-and-replace
22:15:36 <AnMaster> ais523, however some visbility("hidden") attributes could help
22:15:36 <ais523> but then spent a while fixing breakage that caused
22:15:50 <AnMaster> yes that is pretty likely to cause breakage
22:16:01 <AnMaster> due to all places they are called in and so on
22:16:02 <ais523> the issue was that I did, in this case, want to replace inside string literals
22:16:16 <AnMaster> where do I have such string literals?
22:16:19 <ais523> because most of them hold bits of C code that go into the finished program
22:16:27 <ais523> you probably don't have that problem
22:17:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well I think some issues could happen from "way to cleaver" preprocessor defines
22:17:11 <AnMaster> like those constructing functions
22:17:34 <AnMaster> see the ROMA fingerprint for example
22:17:40 <AnMaster> there it is static so no problem
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22:21:40 <Sgeo> http://forums.gamewaredevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=7572
22:21:42 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
22:22:01 <Sgeo> hi Slereah_ and oerjan
22:22:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I will commit the untested FungeSpaceLoadString
22:24:36 <AnMaster> ais523, you will need to -DFUNGE_EXTERNAL_LIBRARY to get it
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22:24:47 <AnMaster> as I don't want to pollute the normal cfunge binary
22:25:30 <AnMaster> Ilari, well partly, but the server is quite heavily loaded I know
22:26:09 <AnMaster> 9:25PM up 222 days, 20:23, 7 users, load averages: 2.33, 1.23, 4.23
22:27:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway bzr pull should work, if it doesn't you need to use --remember once to tell it the url
22:34:16 <ais523> I haven't tried to pull yet
22:34:32 <ais523> I think I'll probably just rebranch
22:34:35 <AnMaster> do because I want to know if I need to tell you to do an additional step
22:34:45 <ais523> renaming all the files in a repo tends to confuse version control systems
22:34:59 <AnMaster> ais523, you could bzr --recursive revert .
22:35:30 <AnMaster> no need for recursive it seems
22:35:58 <AnMaster> "Use "bzr revert ." in the tree root to revert all files but keep the merge record,
22:35:58 <AnMaster> and "bzr revert --forget-merges" to clear the pending merge list without
22:36:16 <tusho> AnMaster: he renamed every file
22:36:27 <AnMaster> tusho, yes but that would restore them
22:36:39 <tusho> He renamed them for a reason I am guessing, AnMaster
22:36:50 <ais523> tusho: yes, to change the extension for all the c99 files to .c99
22:37:03 <tusho> git is far more resilient than any others
22:37:17 <tusho> it has to be for the kernel
22:37:19 <AnMaster> prove that it isn't and I will believe it
22:37:21 -!- ais523 has quit ("avoiding a flamewar").
22:37:41 <tusho> zomg, he parted #esoteric!!111!1
22:37:55 <tusho> <AnMaster> unlike maybe git
22:38:01 <tusho> if that's not incitement to a flamewar I don't know what is
22:38:08 <tusho> you could have simply omitted that inflammatory line
22:38:31 <AnMaster> tusho, he even disconnected thanks to you
22:38:49 <Sgeo> The Warp survived
22:38:54 <tusho> weird, he disconnected?
22:38:56 <tusho> why not just /part?
22:39:06 <tusho> come back, logreadais523
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22:40:25 <tusho> NOW YOU'RE DEAD SO YOU CAN'T COME BACK
22:40:27 <tusho> BUT COME BACK ANYWAY
22:46:11 <tusho> AnMaster: again, you initiated it
22:46:12 <oklopol> my guess: was going to leave, wanted a funny quit msg
22:46:31 <oklopol> not that i have any idea what's been going on
22:46:33 <tusho> he never leaves at this time
22:46:45 <AnMaster> tusho, and you made it into a flameward
22:46:53 <oklopol> i've seen him do all kinds of join/part cycles
22:46:53 <AnMaster> you didn't need to say anything
22:47:06 <tusho> you didn't need to say anything in the first place, though
22:47:18 <AnMaster> tusho, agreed, but why did you respond to it at all?
22:47:26 <tusho> because you initiated it
22:47:32 <tusho> so I responded to it
22:47:38 <tusho> because you were wrong
22:47:46 <tusho> AnMaster: don't troll in the first place
22:59:40 <oklopol> that's what they said about you
22:59:59 <oerjan> after all, AIS secretely stands for Arnold I. Schwarzenegger. it's surprising he is here as much as he is.
23:00:15 <oerjan> (the Smith thing is just a ruse.)
23:01:35 <Sgeo> http://ccbb.biosci.utexas.edu/seminars.html
23:01:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, what does he say his name is?
23:01:47 <Sgeo> "The term "Sgeo-cybernetics" was first proposed in 2005 by Reyes et.al."
23:02:15 <oklopol> we have two famous guys here!
23:02:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, rather a co-incidence?
23:02:47 <oklopol> well actually i consider oerjan famous too
23:02:59 <tusho> oerjan is a MATHEMATICIAN
23:03:01 <oklopol> and i widely know myself, so i guess i'm famous.
23:03:02 <tusho> he's published PAPER
23:03:12 <tusho> and he's in the AMERICAN MATHEMATICAL THINGY
23:03:22 <tusho> and he plays agora
23:03:26 <tusho> that's the most important part
23:03:44 <oklopol> well didn't Sgeo or someone recognize his picture from somewhere
23:03:52 <oklopol> from something like agora perhaps
23:03:52 <tusho> oh god, if oklopol joined Agora...
23:04:05 <tusho> it'd be all crazy all the time
23:04:16 <Sgeo> What picture did I recognize? I don't remember that..
23:04:25 <oklopol> Sgeo: may have been someone else
23:04:31 <tusho> oklopol: http://www.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/agora-official http://www.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/agora-business http://www.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/agora-discussion http://www.listserver.tue.nl/mailman/listinfo/agora http://yoyo.its.monash.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/nomic
23:04:43 <tusho> oklopol: subscribe to all of them, then email agora-business@agoranomic.org saying that you register
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23:51:59 <AnMaster> that shouldn't be possible right
23:52:39 * tusho sets up an improptu nomic
23:53:28 <tusho> 1. The game is this game. The name of this game is "#esotericia". All players are people who have stated that they wish to play the game. All players of the game. 2. Any player may propose a change to the rules. If all players agree to it, it takes effect.
23:56:27 <tusho> I'll only play for like 30m :P
23:56:42 <tusho> sleep is an illusion
23:56:53 <tusho> Corun: you? You just came in here :-P
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00:35:51 <Ilari> AFAIK, with SMP you can get one process using >100% CPU as well...
00:39:44 <Phenax> if u dont send dis mesage to 40 ppl be4 u go to bed a monster will eat u when u sleep i am not jking
00:40:31 <oklopol> IT'S A VIRUS DUCK AND COVER
00:40:57 <oerjan> That's it, if I get eaten by a monster tonight YOU WILL HEAR FROM MY LAWYER
00:42:50 <tusho> lament: kickban Phenax already
00:44:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
00:44:47 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*n=Phenax@67.15.72.*.
00:44:55 <tusho> lament: you forgot the kick part
00:45:07 <lament> that's not a good mask, is it?
00:45:11 <lament> it has his name in it.
00:45:26 <tusho> lament: *!*@* pretty foolproof
00:46:05 -!- lament has set channel mode: -b *!*n=Phenax@67.15.72.*.
00:46:36 <lament> no, really, what's the best mask
00:47:09 <tusho> lament: you can't be foolproof
00:47:10 <lament> i guess this should suffice for now
00:47:21 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*@67.15.72.46.
00:47:57 <lament> tusho: why don't i ban his entire fucking country
00:48:07 <tusho> which country is that
00:48:16 <tusho> if so, then please
00:48:54 <lament> his IP is from Houston, Texas
00:49:01 <oklopol> yeah, americans are such idiots
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00:49:24 <oklopol> i've seen *.fi banned twice
00:49:31 <oklopol> actually once, and once almost
00:49:55 <lament> canadian broadband is actually banned consistently on foreign servers
00:50:14 <lament> i've been auto-banned on all russian and israeli irc servers i tried to join
00:51:23 <tusho> i wonder what the best country to ban is
00:52:14 <Ilari> My run-ins with IRC restrictions (not a lot of use) involved +R on one channel, getting repetedly deopped by chanserv on other, and one blanket K-line...
00:52:52 <Ilari> Oh, and one server breaking connection.
00:54:02 <Ilari> Oh, and self-kill-by-ghost... That was quite funky.
00:54:34 <tusho> i've k-lined myself before
00:55:23 <Ilari> As in issued /kline that matched yourself as well?
00:55:52 <tusho> no, as in literally /kline tusho
00:57:14 <tusho> i had to get another ircop to de-kline me
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01:06:15 <ihope> [ERROR] You need to be an operator in #esoteric to do that.
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04:11:32 <augur> how can i help you
04:14:25 <Slereah_> Is the Chainsaw dude still around?
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05:00:47 <augur> dont know who that is
05:02:19 <augur> theres noone there named chainsaw that i can see
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05:42:24 <evincar> Blurg. I'm back after a ridiculously long absence.
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05:43:50 <evincar> Hi. I don't think we've met.
05:45:23 <evincar> Well, it *has* been a while, then.
05:45:47 <evincar> I think the last time I was here I was making Alchemy and...
05:45:51 <evincar> blast, what was that other one?
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05:57:03 <evincar> So what's new in the eso world?
05:57:17 <evincar> As previously implied, I've been out of it a spell.
06:22:18 <augur> oklopol and i are making what tusho/ehird SWEARS is an esolang but which i dont think is an esolang
06:24:49 <Slereah_> And I'm not making an interpreter for my awesome esolang, for some reason.
06:27:19 <Slereah_> Oh, there's the new eso website
06:27:52 <Slereah_> With this : http://forum.eso-std.org/
06:27:54 <Slereah_> And this : http://code.eso-std.org/
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06:52:42 <evincar> augur: what's the deal, then? Link me up or give me a rundown.
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10:16:04 <Bishopshate> http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Lenski_dialog
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10:35:16 <Slereah> "Lenski's reply in a nutshell, once all the talk pollution and ad hominem attacks are removed: No, I will not give you my raw data or my E. Coli samples, not to you or any other non-Darwinist."
10:35:24 <Slereah> The talk page is made of gold
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11:37:52 <KingOfKarlsruhe> text into brainf*ck converter written in Python http://paste.pocoo.org/show/77688/
11:38:37 <AnMaster> in this channel you can write out the u for the programming language name ;P
11:39:14 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, oh it generates a program which outputs the text?
11:39:37 * AnMaster is C coder, not a python coder
11:39:42 <KingOfKarlsruhe> AnMaster: the german text="Hallo Welt" convert into Brainfuck
11:40:04 <AnMaster> well I'm from Sweden and don't speak german
11:40:27 <AnMaster> but an obvious enchantment would be to read the text from a text file
11:42:47 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, you may want to make it purely English, it is the common language for computer stuff really ;/
11:42:56 <KingOfKarlsruhe> AnMaster: replace the text=".." with what you want.. like this text="Hello from Sweden"
11:42:59 <AnMaster> (why couldn't Swedish be that! ;))
11:43:20 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, well that would be: "Hej från Sverige"
11:43:26 <AnMaster> not sure if it can translate utf8
11:44:16 <AnMaster> wait you can encode å in latin-1
11:44:22 <KingOfKarlsruhe> you can write it in lower cases the program convert it into upper
11:46:28 <AnMaster> utf8 can be described as a set of 8 bit chars
11:46:39 <AnMaster> just allow encoding any 8-bit char
11:46:48 <AnMaster> without caring about what it means
11:46:55 <AnMaster> in other words: encode a binary string
11:47:14 <AnMaster> in C a char is really just another integer
11:47:39 <AnMaster> not sure if you can do that in python
11:48:45 <AnMaster> well you should IMO be able to do it from the original string right?
11:51:44 <KingOfKarlsruhe> you need the hex 0xc3 then append it into self.befehl... but in decimal
11:55:21 <KingOfKarlsruhe> AnMaster: its version 0.0.1 :) if i have fun i write version 0.0.2 in full english and with unicode
11:56:57 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, well I don't know python
11:57:11 <AnMaster> but I would just treat the input file in C as a binary file
12:11:32 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, why not? that would allow utf8 too
12:11:55 <AnMaster> not caring about what the string contains
12:12:03 <AnMaster> just treat the string as a series of numbers
12:12:25 <AnMaster> for a computer both are the same!
12:15:28 <KingOfKarlsruhe> AnMaster: in python you can get the integer from a Char with ord('C') thats 67
12:15:36 <AnMaster> hrrm. there is setproctitle() on *BSD to set entry in ps output, I have seen same effect on linux too but can't find the function in question. So how do you do it on Linux?
12:15:57 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, well I don't code high level scripting languages like python
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12:22:34 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, only saying I can't really help you with python
12:22:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, do you know this maybe?:
12:22:54 <AnMaster> hrrm. there is setproctitle() on *BSD to set entry in ps output, I have seen same effect on linux too but can't find the function in question. So how do you do it on Linux?
12:27:25 <KingOfKarlsruhe> AnMaster, i code a new version to convert any File into a Brainfuck-program and if i have finished it i paste it in here
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12:28:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't know that kind of stuff, generally.
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16:11:36 <ais523> well, obviously you were going to win today
16:11:47 <ais523> because I'm not on my usual client
16:11:51 <ais523> and the channel wasn't active
16:11:57 <ais523> so I had no reason to check it until you nickpinged me
16:12:07 <ais523> so was I a few days ago
16:12:15 <ais523> and my neck still hurts, but I think that's unrelated
16:12:18 <tusho> i caught it from you, obviously
16:12:20 <tusho> over the INTERNET!
16:13:00 <tusho> filter 'hi' to '/kickban'
16:13:13 <ais523> tusho: probably a bad idea
16:13:27 <ais523> although you could always use a duplication prevention bot to get rid of hispam if you wanted
16:17:26 * Sgeo works on the Warp virus project
16:17:36 <Sgeo> <ais523> well, obviously you were going to win today
16:17:39 <ais523> oh, the say-hi-first competition
16:17:54 <ais523> we never agreed to it, it just sort of happened
16:18:39 <tusho> 04:27:40 <AnMaster> do stay
16:18:39 <tusho> 04:27:41 <AnMaster> :)
16:18:39 <tusho> 04:27:47 --- part: KingOfKarlsruhe left #esoteric
16:19:25 <Sgeo> tusho, what should I do if I discover that a virus can travel through the Warp?
16:25:32 <Sgeo> Well, my first attempt failed
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16:49:17 <ais523> trying hard to get a conversation going?
16:49:26 <ais523> generally speaking, having a subject helps
16:50:19 <Sgeo> The crisis that would occur in the CC if a Warp virus was possible, which it doesn't seem to be possible
16:53:59 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes cfunge stuff?
16:54:24 <ais523> AnMaster: not at the moment, because I'm on the wrong computer
16:54:25 <AnMaster> not sure what name it should have
16:54:37 <ais523> I'm on Windows shelling into SunOS right now, making it a lot harder to do programming
16:55:05 <AnMaster> anyway it is a joke about fffi and funge
16:55:19 <ais523> AnMaster: because this is a Windows computer, and SunOS is the only thing it can shell into
16:55:31 <ais523> I've been known to shell from there into a third OS but the performance of that is just awful
16:55:54 <AnMaster> ais523, but why are you on windows...
16:56:06 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't have my laptop on me at the moment
16:56:16 <AnMaster> ais523, ah you will later today?
16:56:16 <ais523> so this is a Uni computer
16:56:26 <ais523> it would involve going home and coming back again
16:56:39 <AnMaster> ais523, aww why did you leave it at home then :(
16:56:50 <ais523> AnMaster: because I went into town earlier today
17:05:21 <AnMaster> ais523, did you get any further after you got home yesterday?
17:05:33 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it was past midnight by then
17:05:35 <AnMaster> ais523, also what is the darcs checkout url now again?
17:05:49 <ais523> http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal/ from memory
17:06:44 <ais523> not sure, I haven't tried to check out recently on darcs, its help knows and I normally check that but I don't have a copy of it on me at the moment
17:07:38 <ais523> I only started versioning recently
17:07:46 <ais523> there were loads of changes before that which were never versioned
17:08:19 <AnMaster> I normally make each commit one logic change
17:08:30 <AnMaster> like if I change two unrelated things I make them each different commits
17:08:51 <ais523> AnMaster: same here, I often work on things in parallel but I use darcs to commit them separately
17:09:03 <ais523> that's why the last few patches to the build system and to created operators are all jumbled up
17:09:27 <AnMaster> hm? I try to make them in logic order too
17:09:40 <AnMaster> and: every revision should compile
17:10:17 <ais523> every revision compiles for me, but often half-completed features will segfault or otherwise error on trying to use them
17:10:26 <ais523> however features that were there beforehand ought to still work
17:10:48 <ais523> except when I accidentally broke them, which happens from time to time
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17:31:06 <tusho> {MULTICS fathered UNIX
17:31:07 <tusho> but sadly, UNIX cannot father anything.} -- reddit
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17:55:49 <tusho> you'd think unix/eunuchs puns would be old by now
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18:28:48 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, this works on any binary file?
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18:32:56 <AnMaster> anyway will test it in a bit, I'm IRCing from PDA atm
18:33:28 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, anyway brainfuck only got the range 0-255
18:33:52 <tusho> AnMaster: PDA? how old fashioned
18:34:04 * tusho IRCs from his iphone :P
18:34:45 * tusho has a root shell on his iphone
18:36:33 <KingOfKarlsruhe> AnMaster: edit the line 92 from my program and enter the location of your file that you want to convert
18:36:42 <tusho> KingOfKarlsruhe: he's on a pda
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18:48:40 <KingOfKarlsruhe> AnMaster: i've fixed the bug now it converts any byte ( in theory ) in range 0 to 255
18:49:39 <tusho> KingOfKarlsruhe: pretty cool
18:49:46 <tusho> though text->brainfuck programs are quite common
18:50:20 <AnMaster> tusho, what are you coding atm?
18:50:32 <AnMaster> I dare you to make a C -> brainfuck compiler!
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18:50:48 <tusho> AnMaster: there's already two
18:50:59 <ais523> AnMaster: actually I've had some thoughts of writing one of those as a gcc backend
18:51:03 <AnMaster> that can convert any C99 to brainfuck?
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18:51:18 <ais523> basically implement a simple CPU of a custom desgin in BF
18:51:28 <ais523> AnMaster: no, on the Uni computer
18:51:39 <ais523> I would have been gone for 2 hours or so if I'd gone home and come back
18:51:42 <ais523> and I was getting food
18:51:44 <tusho> AnMaster: gregorr's c2bf
18:52:05 <tusho> ais523: want a decent unix? You can shell into this machine. :-P
18:52:09 <tusho> It even does x11 forwarding!
18:52:23 <ais523> tusho: yes, but that involves recursive sshing
18:52:27 <ais523> which is ridiculously slow
18:52:33 <tusho> just ssh in from windows
18:52:36 <ais523> because I already have to shell just to get to a UNIXy environment
18:52:46 <ais523> tusho: I can't, it's a special locked-down ssh-to-one-place-only thing
18:53:04 <tusho> ais523: i take it copying over PuTTY.exe for a bit would be against your morals
18:53:13 <tusho> AnMaster: ais523 has some weird morals
18:53:20 <ais523> AnMaster: on a public computer?
18:53:32 <tusho> AnMaster: he uses Outlook Web Access just because his uni policy says he should
18:53:37 <tusho> (and he's probably the only one who obeys that)
18:54:06 <AnMaster> ais523, it makes no sense still to lock it down to one if you still can ssh to a common system!
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18:54:26 <tusho> AnMaster: considering how bad the performance is nobody would do that
18:54:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I think it's something to do with easiness to support for the IT people
18:54:28 <tusho> so it isn't that crazy
18:54:35 <tusho> however ... why do they only offer SunOS
18:54:54 <AnMaster> sunos is the old name after all
18:54:55 <ais523> tusho: it's what's on their large high-performance computers, apparently they never bothered to upgrade it
18:55:04 <ais523> AnMaster: SunOS and Solaris are based on different codebases
18:55:07 <tusho> ais523: enterprisey
18:55:16 <ais523> they discontinued SunOS when they started work on Solaris
18:56:08 <ais523> but yes, SunOS is ridiculously old
18:56:10 <tusho> ais523: i feel for you
18:56:35 <ais523> before they installed Firefox on here I used to even use it for ancient Mozilla
18:56:46 <ais523> which went and blanked [[Talk:Main Page]] on Wikipedia once
18:57:00 <ais523> it can't even handle Monobook properly
18:58:39 <Sgeo> ais523, how did it do that?
18:58:56 <ais523> Sgeo: by just ignoring the contents of the edit box when I tried to submit an edit
18:59:16 <ais523> besides, even when it wasn't doing that, it was line-wrapping text fields
18:59:27 <ais523> taking long lines in the edit box and putting hard newlines in them on submit
18:59:32 <ais523> so it wasn't round-tripping even with no changes
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19:16:04 <ais523> this conversation is going nowhere
19:17:27 <Sgeo> So it's in the Universe but not a world?
19:17:34 <Sgeo> </terrible-AW-techie-joke>
19:20:49 <Sgeo> When you're in the AW universe but not in a world, you show as being Nowhere (I think)
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19:28:34 <tusho> AnMaster: creatures isn't odd :-P
19:28:46 <tusho> what Sgeo does with it is, though
19:29:34 <Sgeo> Active Worlds != Creatures in any way shape or form
19:29:50 <Sgeo> Well, there's a memorial to a dead CC member in AW..
19:30:34 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/SteerPike'
19:30:36 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/SteerPike
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20:00:30 <Sgeo> OMG AUGUR! AWGAR AWGAR AWGAR?
20:00:37 <tusho> AUGUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:00:39 <augur> dude check this out: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/7471724.stm
20:00:49 <augur> we need to build some of these and release them
20:00:55 <augur> all over the planet
20:01:00 <augur> we need to do it all at the same time
20:01:32 <augur> how fucking awesome would it be to fuck with all those ufo people
20:07:23 <Ilari> Building real flying saucer (somehow) and flying around with it could be even better (if one doesn't mind potential fines from FAA)... :-)
20:07:41 <tusho> I think that might be a bit harder :P
20:11:38 <augur> so are we gonna do this? :o
20:11:46 <oklofok> didn't the chinese just build a flying saucer
20:12:32 <Ilari> Yeah... Producing enough force to lift it without expending too much fuel is the main problem... :-)
20:12:37 <oklofok> http://markstechnologynews.blogspot.com/2008/06/watch-out-chinese-flying-saucers-about.html
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21:14:54 <Qhestion> i have a question concerning brainfck: if my code is, for example, "[a]b", and all cells are initialized to 0, will 'a' be executed (assuming 'a' is code) or will the interpreter jump directly to 'b'?
21:15:44 <tusho> Qhestion: *brainfuck
21:15:53 <tusho> and it'll jump to b of course
21:16:03 <tusho> [...] only executse if the memory cell in the pointer is not 0
21:16:36 <Qhestion> well, i KNEW something was wrong with my interpreter :D
21:17:09 <Qhestion> oh and, in a[b[c]d]e, it will go a -> e, right?
21:18:01 <Ilari> Qhestion: Yes, unless a leaves it at nonzero cell..
21:24:46 <tusho> [ = while (memory[ptr])
21:26:01 <Qhestion> oh... i thought it was the other way around, which explains why my interpreter does not do what its supposed to :)
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22:38:11 <augur> http://www.flickr.com/photos/10622064@N03/2554098095/
22:38:14 <augur> slereah you dumbass :P
22:40:08 <augur> i didnt say it was
22:40:50 <cctoide> I see what you did there, augur
22:43:55 <augur> IT IS WHEN I RAPE YOU
22:45:27 <augur> that's what SHE said
22:46:49 <cctoide> well clearly she's a copycat
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22:49:22 <Slereah> Was there any lulz with Chainsaw?
22:49:47 <augur> who the frell is chainsaw
22:49:48 <cctoide> well, it made a new entry in my drama folder
22:50:09 <cctoide> either way it won't last more than 10 days, it seems
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22:51:52 <augur> who the fuck is chainsaw?!
22:51:59 <Slereah> "Temporary K-line 15360 min."
22:52:20 <Slereah> His first kline made note of "harrasment" on him :D
22:52:30 <Slereah> I'm not the one following him everywhere!
22:52:47 <cctoide> that's why you don't troll channels on your home network you cheese manipulator
22:53:28 <cctoide> on the bright side you killed erelae so hurrah
22:53:57 <cctoide> because erelae is "BANISHED" now
22:54:18 <cctoide> I know, and I am most shocked that Monsieur Kode was involved in this affair
22:55:33 <Slereah> I'd be, but I don't really know who that guy is.
22:56:11 <cctoide> He's a 3/4 respectable guy!
22:56:24 <Slereah> BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT QUARTER
22:56:53 <cctoide> Well, that's the quarter that got him banned
22:56:58 <cctoide> Or maybe you were a bad influence!
22:57:17 <Slereah> Well, it was all because of that new dude, you know.
22:57:26 <Slereah> He was here, all like "I'm from other channels"
22:57:33 <Slereah> So we had to do something.
22:57:35 <cctoide> Chainsaw, from the internets?
22:57:49 <Slereah> A guy with a hardon for Nintendo
22:58:08 <cctoide> So there was a SPY around there
22:58:22 <cctoide> was he given away by the massive number of cigarettes
22:59:22 <Slereah> I think it was the paper mask that gave him away
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23:51:13 <Slereah> "Sieg Heil, thats your Hitler reference, which you still cant whip out without some backlash. Thats impressive staying power. I mean five, six decades on and hes still the worlds number one symbol of evil. Imagine that. Hes like the Mickey Mouse of evil. Except Goofy is Goebbels and Minnie is on fire in a ditch."
23:53:01 * oerjan wonders if that makes Black Pete Stalin...
23:55:13 <cctoide> hmm, Slereah is like headcrabs
23:56:22 <augur> have you guys seen these things that are like
23:56:30 <augur> hot air balloons powered by the sun?
23:57:05 <augur> they're basically just like black plastic bags made into a tube that you put air into then seal
23:57:12 <augur> and the sun heats them up and makes them float
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00:34:03 <lament> ihope: if you join ##C as ihope____, you'd get banned
00:35:15 <ihope> === simmons.freenode.net banned *__*!*@* from ##c on Sunday, June 15, 2008 5:28:56 PM.
00:35:20 <ihope> Looks like I'd already be banned.
00:36:13 <lament> ##C used to be such a great channel, but i think that was before they introduced that ban
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02:05:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I drew a comic about my fish: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1214442090-naggc.png
02:27:26 <Slereah> Your fish does not love you
02:27:53 <RodgerTheGreat> the only emotions I ever see are rage, hunger and sleep
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02:29:27 <RodgerTheGreat> but then again, bettas are basically like very tiny, angry sharks
02:31:35 <Slereah> It does not look very shark like.
02:32:38 <RodgerTheGreat> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fb/Redbettafish.jpg
02:33:27 <Slereah> (I'm assuming a male fish, somehow)
02:33:43 <RodgerTheGreat> and that's definitely a male. Bettas are sexually dimorphic.
02:34:07 <RodgerTheGreat> for comparison, a female: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Betta_splendens_female.jpg
02:34:58 <Slereah> Her husband stole all her red lipstick, apparently
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03:13:06 * oerjan finally manages to dig up that ancient signature: "Paul L. Kelly, whose world famous bright red Siamese fighting fish is, milligram for milligram, the fiercest creature on the planet."
03:18:49 <Slereah> I'm trying to place "It should be in a museum!" somewhere.
03:21:17 * oerjan found it in http://pieceoftheuniverse.net/rhod/injoke.shtml, which is almost sort of a museum
03:43:38 <Slereah> The Portal song just make me so goddamn happy
03:43:49 <Slereah> It's like a little ray of sunshine.
03:46:24 <Slereah> Re-reading Discworld books, I notice that there's a lot of repeating exposition.
03:46:51 <Slereah> I know that not everyone read them all, but it can get annoying when you read them in a row.
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05:53:22 <adu> hows the esoteric langs going?
06:04:24 <ihope> Extend it as far as you want: oy vey vei vey vei vey vei vey vei vey vei vey vei vey vei vey vei vey vei vey vei vey vei...
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06:07:44 <Slereah> http://img.lulz.net/src/1214343427.kamilya_newhair.jpg
06:07:56 <Slereah> http://img.lulz.net/src/Awesome_IRL.jpg
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06:32:56 <augur> someone needs to shop that pic onto the deathstar
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12:30:30 <GregorR[Prague]> Plof spec updated, more bits about the user language added.
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16:11:13 <tusho> lament: that ban makes no sense
16:24:20 <AnMaster> GenerateArithmeticOP(ADD, 32, +=, u, U, uint)
16:24:34 <tusho> AnMaster: uh whatever
16:24:36 <AnMaster> GenerateArithmeticOP is a define
16:25:10 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/PTrnnB22.html
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16:26:26 <AnMaster> tusho, and here is how I use it http://rafb.net/p/DKmb5N72.html
16:28:13 <AnMaster> tusho, oh btw: only floating point and SYS instructions left to do
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17:07:48 <tusho> don't be violent to usho, Sgeo
17:22:45 <tusho> 'however humans cannot fly while awake.' - Wikipedia
17:23:31 <tusho> I just quote the wikipedia.
17:23:35 <tusho> DO NOT QUESTION ITS KNOWLEDGE.
17:23:40 <tusho> It knows that humans cannot fly while awake.
17:23:58 <tusho> AnMaster: Well, I didn't know it!
17:24:03 <tusho> It's very useful knowledge.
17:24:09 <tusho> Beforehand, I thought that humans flew all the time while awake.
17:24:14 <tusho> Turns out I'm wrong! Thanks Wikipedia!
17:28:44 <AnMaster> <oklopol> it's perfectly true <-- yes. so is "it is dark at night, unless there is a forest fire", still hardly useful
17:29:48 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefulness
17:29:48 <tusho> AnMaster: Wow. Another thing I learned today.
17:33:02 <AnMaster> tusho, you only know esoteric programming?
17:33:12 <tusho> AnMaster: What's that?
17:33:39 <AnMaster> Sgeo, anyway that article is completely silly
17:35:23 <tusho> it makes too many assumptions
17:35:27 <tusho> e.g. i'm pretty sure animals can listen
17:35:35 <tusho> still, if you see the box at the top, someone noticed
17:35:44 <oklopol> AnMaster: except yours isn't as true
17:35:51 <tusho> oklopol: is it not?
17:35:54 <tusho> wow, 3 things i've learned today
17:36:06 * Sgeo can't wait to try the advanced DV task of the month..
17:36:15 <oklopol> tusho: forest fire is hardly the most probably thing to light up the night.
17:36:32 <Sgeo> I don't think I should leak what it is..
17:37:04 <AnMaster> "the night is darker than the day assuming there are no forest fires or other natural disasters/phenomena/lamppoles/other stuff causing increased light level"
17:37:19 <Sgeo> Site about lucid dreaming
17:37:21 <tusho> (dreamviews is a lucid dreaming site, right? pretty sure I've seen it linked)
17:37:25 <tusho> Sgeo: I meant the task thing.
17:37:43 <Sgeo> I don't think I should leak it
17:37:49 <tusho> Sgeo: nobody cares
17:38:00 <tusho> AnMaster: concious dreaming
17:38:04 <tusho> realising you're dreaming
17:38:05 <Sgeo> AnMaster, a dream where you are aware that you are dreaming
17:38:12 <tusho> often comes with control over the dream
17:38:21 <tusho> (up to 100% control)
17:38:25 <tusho> er, xkcd did a comic about lucid dreaming?
17:39:02 * tusho has had a few low-level lucid dreams and one high-level one
17:39:05 <tusho> always trying, though
17:39:18 <tusho> AnMaster: many ways
17:39:19 <tusho> one is reality checks
17:39:25 <tusho> you get in to a habit of looking at your hands
17:39:30 <tusho> or looking at some text, looking away from it, and back again
17:39:32 <AnMaster> well how would I remember doing that?
17:39:38 <tusho> AnMaster: just keep doing it in real life
17:39:43 <tusho> in a dream you won't have 5 fingers
17:39:49 <tusho> you'll have 7, 3, or you'll have claws
17:39:50 <AnMaster> tusho, eh, ppl will think I'm strange!
17:40:00 <tusho> AnMaster: OH NO. HE'S LOOKING AT HIS HAND.
17:40:11 <Sgeo> As a RC, I often try to push fingers through my palm
17:40:20 <Sgeo> Although I think lately that fails in my dreams
17:40:22 <tusho> Sgeo: stuff like that freaks me out a bit too much :-P
17:40:30 <tusho> apart from reality checks you can start the dream lucidly
17:40:35 <tusho> some common techniques:
17:40:45 <tusho> WILD - wake induced lucid dream. You make your body fall asleep but your mind stay awake.
17:41:00 <tusho> You go into sleep paralysis and then hypnagogic imagery which will eventually form into a dream scene.
17:41:07 <oklopol> i lucid dream a lot, unfortunately i always try to have sex with someone, and that wakes me up.
17:41:10 <tusho> However, since you never became unconcious, you'll be aware you're dreaming from the start.
17:41:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, learn from that mistake?
17:41:30 <tusho> MILD - mnemonic induced lucid dream. You repeat 'I am dreaming' continually, then fall asleep.
17:41:45 <tusho> WBTB - Wake back to bed. Teh most hradc0re of them all.
17:41:51 <tusho> You sleep for like 5 hours, then your alarm wakes you up.
17:41:52 <Sgeo> For me, DV lucid tasks are a priority..
17:41:56 <tusho> Then you do something for 30 minutes.
17:41:56 <oklopol> AnMaster: well, sometimes i don't wake up.
17:42:02 <tusho> Then you go back to bed.
17:42:08 <tusho> Most often you then do WILD or MILD.
17:42:21 <oklopol> AnMaster: nope, i have real feeling orgasms without ejaculating
17:42:43 <tusho> My last lucid dream (which was very vivid) started by me trying WILD and then giving up, which turned it into MILD. :P
17:43:16 <Sgeo> When my computer's locked, I have a dreamsign of my dad discovering that I can in fact use the computer
17:43:27 <tusho> But all of my 'OMFG. I'M DREAMING.' dreams were very low-level
17:43:33 <tusho> (i.e. everything was still pretty fuzzy and I wasn't that lucid)
17:43:49 <Sgeo> My second-to-most-recent dream had me thinking "If my dad discovers me on the laptop, it must be a dream because I can't get to it IRL"
17:44:01 <AnMaster> well wikipedia claims that "Dream recall is simply the ability to remember dreams. Good dream recall is often described as the first step towards lucid dreaming."
17:44:04 <Sgeo> And I STILL didn't become lucid until my dad discovered me on the laptop
17:44:06 <AnMaster> and that hardly ever happens to me
17:44:27 <tusho> AnMaster: you have to practice
17:44:31 <tusho> keep a dream journal (log of dreams)
17:44:36 <tusho> and when you wake up, stay still for a while
17:44:43 <tusho> this does some thiingies with muscles and the brains that helps you remember it.
17:45:13 <AnMaster> huh, I have very bad morning mode
17:46:17 <AnMaster> I mean *very bad*, I normally press snooze button at least twice and then gets up very angry and quite angry until breakfast is over
17:46:57 <tusho> AnMaster: yeah well you need to focus :-P
17:47:05 <oklopol> i've slept 3 hours repeatedly pressing a 9 minute snooze.
17:47:09 <AnMaster> before the first toast? impossible
17:47:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, ok that is more than I have done
17:47:34 <oklopol> (then failed to press it, and slept a few more without the snooze)
17:48:11 <oklopol> i sleep 10-12 hours, i usually try to wake after 7-8 using an alarm clock.
17:48:38 <AnMaster> well I use two clocks, one that won't stop beeping until I turn it off
17:48:52 <AnMaster> and placed so I need to get up to reach it
17:48:52 <oklopol> will be fun to start uni after a year of not having to be anywhere in the mornings
17:49:04 <oklopol> i've basically had a year long holiday
17:49:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, try a clock that beeps until you get up and turn it off
17:49:28 <AnMaster> placing it so you can't reach it easily
17:49:57 <oklopol> well, 1. i've slept for an hour with a clock beeping next to me 2. i can talk 10 minutes on the phone, then fall asleep again, and not even remember the phone call
17:49:59 <AnMaster> you actually need to take a few steps to get to it
17:50:17 <oklopol> well, these are extreme cases though, usually that works for me, if i actually have somewhere to be
17:50:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about rigging the computer and a speaker and placing the computer where you can turn it off in another room?
17:52:09 <oklopol> the problem is, i just go back to sleep no matter whether i wake up or not, because i simply don't have any backbone in the morning.
17:53:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about forcing yourself to the breakfast table?
17:53:26 <Sgeo> You can go back to sleep while sleeping?
17:54:24 <oklopol> AnMaster: that might work, except my home consists of a bed, basically.
17:54:59 <AnMaster> I have the breakfast table downstairs
17:55:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, so having to walk up again would not work when I'm that sleepy
17:56:13 <oklopol> i don't have a kitchen either
17:56:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, ooh I know, electric bed: if you try to go back it will give a mild shock
17:57:30 <oklopol> but, well, that'd require some work
17:58:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, tilting bed? if you try to get back it will tip you off it
17:58:48 <oklopol> that would be great, would have more room even.
17:59:09 <oklopol> i mean, it'd just tip me off in the morning, and press against the wall
17:59:11 <AnMaster> however I once fell off the bed while sleeping without waking up
17:59:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, you need an alarm first or you will get bruises.
18:00:07 <AnMaster> so you get like 5 minutes warning
18:00:26 <oklopol> after a few weeks, i'm sure i'd start waking up automatically just before the tilt.
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18:44:19 <tusho> you know that guy who thought opera was free software
18:44:22 <tusho> and I pointed it out to him
18:44:29 <tusho> he's replied again
18:44:29 <tusho> {HAHAHA Oh, you're such a douchebag. Hilarious! And you take yourself so seriously, you've got to be a teenage american! It is free. You fail. Don't annoy me anymore. http://www.download.com/Opera/3000-2356_4-10005498.html Even better, stick your head in an oven and free the world of your shit.}
18:45:51 <Sgeo> Did you define "free software" for him?
18:46:07 <tusho> Sgeo: here's the message he sent before that
18:46:11 <Sgeo> Mayeb try using the words "open source"?
18:46:12 <tusho> {Opera was initially paid software, but then became free a few years ago.
18:46:13 <tusho> http://www.download.com/Opera/3000-2356_4-10005498.html http://www.opera.com/free/
18:46:13 <tusho> note the word FREE.
18:46:13 <tusho> Shame there are ignorants like you around, especially on reddit, who blindly blurt out the stupidest thing on their minds that they can't be bothered to substantiate.
18:46:13 <tusho> So, you're either deluded or a retard. Now, YOU FAIL.
18:46:14 <tusho> Don't bother answering.}
18:46:22 <tusho> I just sent him this:
18:46:23 <tusho> {Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software. It does not mean 'freeware', it means 'FOSS' (Free and Open Source Software).
18:46:23 <tusho> If you had clicked the link you would have realised that. Please do so before replying again.}
18:46:29 <tusho> which is 100% ambiguous
18:46:54 <tusho> if he's a troll, though, he's great
18:47:06 <tusho> if not he's pretty damn retarded
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19:16:16 <tusho> AnMaster: that's what I thought
19:16:27 <tusho> probably forgot to bring his laptop and can't find a computer to use?
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19:31:22 <tusho> I bet ais is hiding from us
19:32:15 <oklopol> yes let's whois all /ais[0-9]{3}/
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21:01:49 <augur> ::pokes everyone::
21:02:32 <tusho> I'm very sensitive.
21:05:21 <augur> ::pokes tusho harder::
21:05:35 <augur> im still poking you.
21:05:38 * tusho initiates a criminal CFJ against augur for molestation
21:05:47 <tusho> THE AGORAN COURTS WILL SORT THIS ONE OUT
21:05:52 <augur> its not molestation if its sexual in nature.
21:06:15 <augur> im poking you with a stick so unless you find sticks arousing...
21:06:30 <augur> You... you're turned on by TREES?!
21:06:42 <tusho> wtf, that's actually a meme on a forum I go to
21:06:53 -!- RedDak has joined.
21:06:54 <tusho> (me having intimate relationships with trees)
21:07:06 <tusho> (for some values of 'intimate relationships' equal to 'casual sex')
21:07:17 <tusho> cactuses especially
21:15:08 <tusho> augur: oh, and 'its not molestation if its sexual in nature.'
21:15:40 <augur> if its not! god damnit >_<
21:15:48 <augur> fine! ::molests you::
21:16:32 <tusho> not particularly no
21:16:44 <augur> YOU'RE UNBEARABLE.
21:16:47 <augur> THE MARRIAGE IS OFF.
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21:56:29 <lament> the ##c guys are retarded
21:56:33 <lament> so they do retarded things
21:57:00 <lament> what other explanation do you need?
21:57:15 <tusho> but seriously what did they think whe n they did it
21:57:40 <lament> they probably thought "OOOOH SHINY"
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22:15:31 <GregorR-L> Gee, apparently my home computer or net connection is down.
22:15:44 <tusho> no it's not, GregorR-L
22:17:32 <GregorR-L> Feel like elaborating on that perspective?
22:27:41 <GregorR-L> http://www.codu.org/pics/displayimage.php?album=5&pos=1
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22:32:29 <oklopol> GregorR-L: well aren't you on the net right now!
22:32:47 <GregorR-L> Certainly not from my home computer.
22:32:47 <oklopol> (home is where your massive hat collection is)
22:34:22 <oklopol> actually you probably left at least part of your collection home.
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22:51:16 <Sgeo> Sugar Cane Nomic: No rules? I assign myself Malevolent Dictator for Life, and announce a new rule that no action may occur without my consent.
22:51:24 <Sgeo> According to ehird, that doesn't work. Why?
22:51:27 <augur> oklopol, how has the language changed? :|
22:52:10 <ihope> Sgeo: the fact that there are no rules doesn't mean that you're allowed to do everything any more than it means you're prohibited from doing everything.
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22:58:28 <oklopol> augur: dunno, i haven't seen it lately
22:59:16 <augur> the other day you said that x -> y, z -> y has always made both of them simultaneously active
22:59:20 <augur> which was never the case.
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23:26:06 <oklopol> augur: well it was originally
23:26:18 <oklopol> i specifically asked you that
23:26:25 <augur> and i answered quite specifically.
23:26:37 <oklopol> i tried, can't find that conversation anywhere
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23:34:56 <augur> it doesnt matter really, because if you did find you it'd find you were wrong. :P
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23:44:05 <augur> but, like i said, we need to decide whether or not that makes any sense
23:44:10 <augur> i personally dont think it does.
23:45:09 <augur> i think it makes it unnecessarily complicated to program in the language.
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00:42:32 <Slereah> I got my first dollar bill :D
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01:24:52 <Slereah> I ordered a book, and I got refunded 5 dorra for the postage
01:25:15 <Slereah> I put it on my wall, so Abe can watch me masturbate.
01:28:01 <tusho> i just lost the game
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02:10:19 <Slereah> He has a pause button, why doesn't he use it at every opportunity?
02:31:03 <RodgerTheGreat> Sgeo: wikipedia says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_N
02:34:25 <Sgeo> http://www.amazon.com/Omega-Game-Steven-Krane/dp/0886779073/ref=cm_lmf_tit_6 oO
02:35:57 <oerjan> he was an Agora player
02:36:59 <Slereah> But, you can't win the Game! D:
02:37:10 <oerjan> unless he returned after i left, for all you know
02:37:49 <Sgeo> Why isn't Swann a player, and why aren't YOU?
02:38:40 <oerjan> life is full of mysteries
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06:06:36 <oklopol> Slereah: He has a pause button, why doesn't he use it at every opportunity? <<< presumably prefers quantity over quality when it comes to life
06:06:56 <oklopol> assuming the pauses are reduced from his lifespam
06:07:54 <oklopol> well, really the subjective length of life would be the same, but he doesn't want to live less than others, in global time
06:08:23 <oklopol> seems intuitive one might feel that way
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07:02:45 <oklopol> i feel like singing, but it's hard in ascii
07:03:02 <oklopol> i shall use the following notation for my singing
07:03:53 <oklopol> <relative pitch, relative length> makes the preceding syllable a note of that lenght/pitch
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07:04:22 <oklopol> 0 relative pitch is 440hZ, 1 relative length you can choose yourself
07:04:47 <oklopol> relative pitch n is is 2^(n/12)*440
07:06:46 <lament> better notations exist
07:07:15 <oklopol> what<0, 2> a<2, 1> won<4, 2> der<2, 1> ful<0, 2> mor<5, 3> ning<9, 3> how<7, 2> could<4, 2> this<2, 1> feel<0, 2> ing<4, 1> be<7, 2> topped<5, 8>
07:07:25 <oklopol> i don't know any that incorporates lyrics
07:07:37 <oklopol> anyway, that was the song, really
07:08:04 <oklopol> you'd think it would continue
07:08:35 <oklopol> lament: care to sing it better?
07:09:43 <oklopol> i hate it when people judge my singing if they can't sing themselves!
07:12:04 <oklopol> lament: wanna play the guitar as i sing?
07:12:14 <oklopol> Slereah_: will you take the bongos?
07:12:27 <lament> <strum> <strum> <strum> <strum>
07:15:25 <augur> california legalized gay marriage
07:16:09 <oklopol> has gay sex been legal all this time we have not been having sex?
07:16:26 <augur> but the gay marriage has been.
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07:16:33 <augur> we could go to norway too, thats closer to you
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07:17:41 <oklopol> or we wait a few years until finland legalizes it, and then not marry each other *here*, how about that?
07:18:51 <oklopol> we're always quick at these things, so desperate for attention
07:19:00 <olsner> you could always go to sweden and not marry
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07:23:17 <oklopol> i guess the negation does make it quite easy to accomplish in any country.
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13:09:01 <ais523> yes, that's unusual, I don't think anyone's pinged SevenInchBread in a while
13:09:08 <ais523> ihope: why did you ping them?
13:09:43 <ihope> Because nobody's pinged him in a while, I guess?
13:09:57 <ais523> ihope: do you like pinging random people for no obvious reason?
13:12:43 <Slereah_> Man, the Gabriel Knight book has the laziest cover.
13:12:55 <Slereah_> It's three screenshots from the game shopped together.
13:15:28 <ais523> clog didn't respond...
13:15:41 <ais523> hey, where'd cmeme go?
13:15:55 <ais523> does this mean that ircbrowse aren't logging us any more?
13:28:42 <Slereah_> Heh. Love cartoons double entendre.
13:30:18 * ais523 tries to figure out what happened to cmeme
13:30:26 <ais523> apparently it left June 5 and never came back
13:33:15 <ais523> wow, ircbrowse is being really slow
13:33:22 <ais523> I picked one of the active days back from 2005
13:33:27 <ais523> and the page was cut off at "GregorR-LQuit with mess"
13:35:09 <ais523> heh, there are some gems in the early logs: "<fizzie> I already got complaints about the 4-bit adder being too unnatural-looking and lacking scenery."
13:39:41 * ais523 ponders the idea of doing an "optical illusion" thing which is actually an animated gif that simulates the effect you're meant to see
13:39:46 <ais523> so it isn't an illusion, it's actually there
13:48:28 <ais523> not very much further yet
13:48:33 <ais523> but I was just about to start on it again
13:50:51 <AnMaster> ais523, ansembler is probably turing complete (except that it got limited memory like a computer, so not really)
13:51:04 <AnMaster> by now it got all but floating point and SYS done
13:51:23 <AnMaster> and some floating point are done
13:51:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I went crazy with pre-processor in it
13:51:53 <ais523> why are you creating a new asm anyway?
13:51:58 <ais523> is it just for fun or is there another reason?
13:52:01 <AnMaster> GenerateArithmeticOP(MUL, 64, *=, u, U, uint)
13:52:01 <AnMaster> GenerateArithmeticOP(IMUL, 32, *=, s, S, int)
13:52:01 <AnMaster> GenerateArithmeticOP(IMUL, 64, *=, s, S, int)
13:52:18 <AnMaster> GenerateArithmeticOP(ADD, 32, +=, u, U, uint)
13:52:18 <AnMaster> GenerateArithmeticOP(ADD, 64, +=, u, U, uint)
13:52:21 <ais523> AnMaster: ugh, are you using stringify there?
13:53:00 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/GywJbw94.html
13:53:21 <AnMaster> ais523, seems totally intercal level!
13:53:42 <AnMaster> my interpreter-macros.h is over 300 lines long
13:53:49 <ais523> hey, I only do that sort of thing in a couple of cases
13:54:04 <ais523> most notably in the ffi, where I run the C preprocessor, then my own preprocessor, then the C compiler
13:54:05 <AnMaster> my interpreter.c is 281 lines long
13:54:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well I need a lot of variants on similar thing
13:54:53 <AnMaster> #define GetRegister(rreg, type)\
13:54:53 <AnMaster> ans_regspec my_regspc = FetchRegspec(); \
13:54:53 <AnMaster> rreg = GetRegister ## type (my_regspc); \
13:55:21 <AnMaster> FetchRegspec is a generated function btw
13:55:24 <AnMaster> CreateFetchParam(Regspec, ans_regspec)
13:55:50 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/guaCo541.html
13:56:12 <AnMaster> SevenInchBread, and ais523: what do you think ;P
13:57:05 <AnMaster> GenerateBitwiseOP(XOR, 32, ^=)
13:57:05 <AnMaster> GenerateBitwiseOP(XOR, 64, ^=)
13:57:22 <AnMaster> GenerateFloatDoubleArithOP(ADD, +=)
13:57:22 <AnMaster> GenerateFloatDoubleArithOP(SUB, -=)
13:57:34 <AnMaster> #define GenerateFloatDoubleArithOP(name, operator) \
13:57:34 <AnMaster> GenericFloatingPointArithOP(F ## name, operator, flt[0]) \
13:57:34 <AnMaster> GenericFloatingPointArithOP(D ## name, operator, dbl)
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13:58:08 <ais523> [13:53] <ais523> hey, I only do that sort of thing in a couple of cases
13:58:10 <ais523> [13:54] <ais523> most notably in the ffi, where I run the C preprocessor, then my own preprocessor, then the C compiler
13:58:13 <ais523> [13:54] <ais523> I have macros that expand into instructions for my preprocessor
13:58:15 <ais523> [13:57] <ais523> what's FungeSpaceSaveToFile for?
13:58:17 <ais523> sorry, connection dropped
13:58:21 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/z8hQGE37.html btw
13:58:38 <AnMaster> ais523, FungeSpaceSaveToFile is for o instruction
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13:58:50 <AnMaster> o writes out some of funge space to a file
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13:59:08 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/nTbx9t70.html
13:59:34 <ais523> sorry... connection troubles
14:00:39 <AnMaster> ais523, why is FungeSpaceSaveToFile a problem?
14:00:41 * ais523 wonders how easy it would be to serialise the internal state of a Befunge interp, so that Befunge programs could be frozen into a file and restarted later
14:00:48 <ais523> I was just wondering why it was there
14:01:03 <ais523> I was wondering if it was part of a serialisation trick like that
14:01:04 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure there is a nice doxygen comment in the header for it
14:01:32 <AnMaster> ais523, but yes a program could use it it to serialize itself
14:02:02 <AnMaster> it needs to get it's own size probably too
14:02:10 <AnMaster> y instruction should know that
14:02:13 <ais523> you'd have to serialise the stack too, though, and Funge-98 has a stack stack too IIRC?
14:02:51 <ais523> also internal state of fingerprints
14:02:56 <AnMaster> ais523, why would you need to serialise it?
14:03:02 <ais523> AnMaster: various reasons
14:03:02 <AnMaster> and some fingerprints use static variables
14:03:19 <AnMaster> because the data is shared between all the fingerprints
14:03:19 <ais523> for instance when I initialised Lost Kingdoms separately and sent the resulting serialised BF image to ehird
14:03:29 <ais523> because he was fed up with waiting for it to load
14:03:42 <ais523> Emacs uses that trick, I think
14:03:49 <ais523> it dumps core and then makes the core dump into an executable
14:04:10 <ais523> hmm... do core dumps have their own headers?
14:04:19 <ais523> or is it possible to dump core in such a way that it starts with an ELF header?
14:04:24 <ais523> that would be a brilliant quine
14:04:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I think they have special elf headers
14:04:33 <ais523> a machine-code Kimian quine based on core-dumps...
14:04:44 <AnMaster> that will need modification after
14:05:35 <AnMaster> ais523, unless it is fantasy game ;P
14:11:03 * ais523 ponders what includes are needed in the glue code
14:11:17 <ais523> <ick_ec.h>, of course, but which of yours will I need?
14:11:29 <AnMaster> ais523, depend on what you are using
14:11:46 <AnMaster> each header corresponds to a source file apart from global.h
14:11:49 <ais523> loading fungespace from a string, then running the interp
14:12:09 <ais523> I need to duplicate the functionality of interpreterMainLoop, but with various modifications
14:12:10 <AnMaster> ais523, the headers mostly include other headers as needed I think
14:13:00 * ais523 ponders how k would interact with NEXT
14:13:01 <AnMaster> ais523, interpreter.h + maybe reach internals in that file not sure, and funge-space/funge-space.h
14:13:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well k interacts badly with a lot of things
14:13:59 <ais523> oh, and k + marker makes little sense either, but I don't think it can ever come up in a situation where it's dangerous
14:14:20 <AnMaster> ais523, as for fingerprint you may need more headers not sure
14:14:27 <ais523> AnMaster: that's fine, 15kF and 51kF would be equivalent
14:14:34 <AnMaster> ais523, if there are any major changes you want upstream, I'm open for discussion
14:14:54 <ais523> I don't think there will be, I'm trying to disturb upstream as little as possible
14:15:07 <AnMaster> ais523, well you got your load from string
14:15:26 <AnMaster> and I think you may need to touch internals in interpreter.c, not just the header
14:15:51 <AnMaster> as for k + fingerprint... that is one hard
14:16:09 <AnMaster> current infrastructure doesn't really support special casing k for fingerprints
14:16:15 <AnMaster> nor is it something the upstream will need
14:16:22 <ais523> I've thought of a way to avoid messing with internals, which is a good idea anyway to avoid the internals being messed up with my stupid stack tricks
14:16:24 <AnMaster> as I have very few feral fingerprints
14:16:31 <ais523> and I'd like you to figure out k + TRDS...
14:16:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't plan on implementing TRDS in upstream
14:17:18 <AnMaster> ais523, see README, it contains a list of fingerprints which won't be implemented
14:17:26 <ais523> but what most of the fingerprint commands do is set flags, which are processed when control returns to ick_InterpreterMainLoop or whatever I call it
14:17:51 <ais523> that way there's nothing much dangerous on the C stack when I go about destroying it or whatever
14:18:11 <ais523> also it's only InterpreterMainLoop that I have to worry about making re-entrant
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14:18:44 <ais523> this breaks badly with k + NEXT, though, I think
14:18:49 <AnMaster> ais523, as for how k + TRDS interacts: badly I think
14:18:51 <ais523> but some things work in my favour
14:19:10 <ais523> for instance, k + COMEFROM is inexpressible with the notation I plan to use
14:19:25 <AnMaster> SevenInchBread, yes ages ago a bit after you talked here
14:19:58 <AnMaster> <ais523> for instance, k + COMEFROM is inexpressible with the notation I plan to use <-- interesting
14:20:14 <ais523> AnMaster: if you put the k before the marker, it's never seen, likewise if you put it after the C
14:20:21 <ais523> if you put it after the marker it applies to the wrong statement
14:20:36 <ais523> and if you put it before the C then the C ends mark-mode and the other iterations never run
14:20:37 <AnMaster> why is the marker never seen with a k next to it?
14:20:46 <ais523> AnMaster: program execution starts at the marker
14:20:55 <ais523> so the k immediately before it never executes
14:21:10 <AnMaster> well what if the program hits the marker later on?
14:21:21 <ais523> AnMaster: no, a marker's a NOP if you aren't in mark-mode
14:21:35 <ais523> that reflects the INTERCAL behaviour
14:21:44 <ais523> a COME FROM does nothing if encountered in the normal flow of things
14:21:53 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, then you need to change ExecuteInstruction in interpreter.c a bit
14:21:59 <ais523> actually, that's not quite right, COME FROM pops the stack if not in mark-mode
14:22:13 <ais523> AnMaster: not really, it should be easy enough to define a NOP in a fingerprint
14:22:24 <AnMaster> err fingerprints can only define [A-Z]
14:22:31 <AnMaster> // Next: Is this a fingerprint opcode?
14:22:31 <AnMaster> } else if ((opcode >= 'A') && (opcode <= 'Z')) {
14:22:40 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I was planning to expose markers as M to the Befunge code
14:22:44 <ais523> just have them as middot in the source
14:23:00 <ais523> so they get magical marker metadata, whilst not surprising a Funge program
14:24:43 * ais523 wonders what the fffungi handprint should be
14:25:13 <ais523> I was planning to use IFFI for the fingerprint
14:25:25 <ais523> it might make a good handprint too, though
14:25:39 <ais523> but the handprint should acknowledge cfunge, really
14:25:43 <ais523> whereas the fingerprint shouldn't
14:26:01 <ais523> yep, I just looked it up
14:26:33 <ais523> there's a nice symmetry there
14:26:52 <AnMaster> ais523, however that may be a future fingerprint on my side
14:27:04 <AnMaster> I have had ideas about a C FFI fingerprint for befunge
14:27:17 <AnMaster> ais523, however this may never happen
14:27:18 <ais523> would a handprint/fingerprint clash be a problem?
14:27:22 <AnMaster> as I got no idea how hard it would be
14:28:32 <AnMaster> ais523, also when compiled in 64-bit variant the handprint of fingerprints could use 8 chars
14:29:51 <ais523> and besides, what I'm doing also provides a C ffi for Befunge in a very tortuous manner
14:29:51 <ais523> you'd just need a stub INTERCAL program to connect the two
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14:30:57 <AnMaster> <ais523> you'd just need a stub INTERCAL program to connect the two
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14:31:56 <AnMaster> ais523, note I haven't tested the load from string
14:32:05 <AnMaster> so if you have odd issues with loading look there
14:32:12 <ais523> well, I'm going to set to documenting what I'm about to do before I start actually coding it
14:32:12 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and some gdb tricks
14:32:16 <ais523> that seems necessary here
14:32:40 <ais523> and C-INTERCAL's the first program I've ever come across which has managed to completely confuse gdb
14:32:42 <AnMaster> ais523, compile *without* defining NDEBUG
14:32:47 <ais523> it doesn't like bits of stack disappearing without warning
14:33:31 <AnMaster> there is also a funge stack dump
14:34:12 <AnMaster> call StackDump(pointer to a funge stack be sure it is correct, there is no verification)
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14:36:41 <ais523> ok, although it's unlikely to be the Befunge stuff itself that needs debugging
14:36:46 <ais523> although now I've said that it will be
14:38:29 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, one other thing; is it possible for a fingerprint to do unusual stuff when it's loaded
14:38:34 <ais523> as opposed to when the commands in it are called
14:38:57 <ais523> one thing I'm not sure whether to do is to have the Befunge program run as normal until IFFI's loaded, then for the INTERCAL program to start
14:39:08 <ais523> to allow the Befunge program to do initialisation if it wants before relinquishing control
14:42:25 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: oh, one other thing; is it possible for a fingerprint to do unusual stuff when it's loaded
14:42:47 <ais523> I was planning just to set a flag that the main loop could read
14:42:53 <AnMaster> you could do memset(0, 0, 2*1024*1024);
14:43:03 <AnMaster> but likely that would segfault
14:44:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> one thing I'm not sure whether to do is to have the Befunge program run as normal until IFFI's loaded, then for the INTERCAL program to start
14:44:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> to allow the Befunge program to do initialisation if it wants before relinquishing control
14:44:11 <ais523> my plan's basically an insane main loop combined with sane everything else
14:45:00 <AnMaster> anyway a fingerprint is only activated when any instruction in it is called
14:45:10 <AnMaster> never when it is unloaded or otherwise
14:45:18 <AnMaster> ais523, that may be worth remembering
14:45:25 <ais523> not when unloaded is slightly surprising
14:45:50 <ais523> AnMaster: well, reversing whatever was done on startup, such as deallocating memory, etc, is what I'd have expected
14:46:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so far that haven't been needed, all fingerprints that allocate memory to static variables should persist until the program ends
14:46:37 <AnMaster> all that allocate to data stored in ip, will persist until ip terminates or program ends
14:46:57 <AnMaster> ais523, if I needed unload I would indeed add it
14:47:02 <AnMaster> and I can add it if you need it
14:47:05 <ais523> I don't think I need it
14:47:22 <AnMaster> I may need it in the future, it would be a optional hook
14:47:24 <ais523> it would make something more symmetrical, but I think the symmetry would be bad, and also a pain to implement at my end
14:47:36 <AnMaster> so only change would be a few lines in fingerprint spec, if even that
14:47:48 * ais523 recalls that "no Intercal;" in C-INTERCAL is an error
14:47:58 <ais523> that is, C-INTERCAL's programmed as a Perl module
14:48:02 <ais523> but it mustn't be unloaded
14:48:07 <ais523> doing so causes an error message
14:48:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well fingerprint may be unloaded
14:48:23 <ais523> s/C-INTERCAL/CLC-INTERCAL/
14:48:25 <AnMaster> you need to check if you are already initialized
14:48:49 <AnMaster> static bool initialized = false;
14:48:55 <AnMaster> then in the loading code set it to true
14:49:18 <AnMaster> don't forget #include <stdbool.h>
14:49:30 <AnMaster> ais523, a few fingerprints does that
14:49:40 <ais523> AnMaster: you rely on a lot of header files that I don't depend on existing
14:49:41 <AnMaster> HRTI does per-ip for various reasons
14:49:45 <ais523> but then C-INTERCAL doesn't depend on C99
14:49:51 <ais523> older versions don't even depend on C89
14:50:02 <AnMaster> so I see no reason not to use it
14:50:12 <ais523> yes, this is only going to work in C99
14:50:41 <AnMaster> of course if you plan to write your fingerprint as C89 that should work with the exceptions of existing macros
14:51:12 <ais523> well, I'll make it C99, but mostly avoiding C99 features unless I would really find them useful
14:51:24 <AnMaster> anyway I think global.h already includes stdbool.h and stdint.h
14:51:35 <ais523> either that, or the whole thing will be legal C89 except for a comment saying // this comment was put here to make the file C99 not C89
14:51:54 <ais523> I may do that, it's in the spirit of the rest of the code
14:52:17 <AnMaster> I use C99 code because I find it is useful
14:52:44 <AnMaster> used for ip list in concurrent funge
14:52:51 <ais523> no, I meant in the spirit of the rest of C-INTERCAL
14:52:58 <ais523> I normally try to pay homage to the langs other people chose
14:53:15 <ais523> so for instance my CLC-INTERCAL character set stuff is full of Perl idioms despite being written in C
14:54:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what are those idioms?
14:54:58 <ais523> mostly ifs done with short-circuit operators
14:55:04 <ais523> but that requires a lot more parens to work in C
14:55:16 <AnMaster> um? short circut operators? isn't that the default in C?
14:55:25 <ais523> but they aren't normally used for if statements
14:55:29 <ais523> normally they're used for logic
14:56:05 <AnMaster> well if ((foo == bar) && (quux == xyzz)) will break on the first that is false
14:56:16 <AnMaster> for || it will break on the first that is true
14:56:28 <ais523> (void)(ic==-1 && (ick_cset_recent[ic=ick_csetow++].nbytes=0));
14:56:39 <ais523> that's a common Perl idiom, but is much uglier in C
14:57:11 <ais523> AnMaster: it's functionally an if statement
14:57:39 <AnMaster> well I use that *sometimes* in bash but not often
14:57:52 <ais523> in Perl it would read ic == -1 and $ick_cset_recent[$ic=$ick_csetow++]->nbytes=0;
14:57:55 <ais523> which is much the same thing
14:58:01 <ais523> just C requires lots of parens
14:58:08 <ais523> and a cast to void to satisfy linting tools
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15:00:06 <AnMaster> gcc would also do it if you discard the data from a function marked __attribute__((const))
15:00:11 <ais523> AnMaster: it does have an effect
15:00:16 <ais523> there's two assignments in there
15:00:25 <ais523> and a cast to void to show that I don't care about the final value
15:00:41 <AnMaster> ais523, doing an assign inside a [] sucks IMO
15:00:49 <ais523> yes, probably, I wouldn't do it normally
15:00:54 <ais523> in fact there are two assigns inside that []
15:00:58 <ais523> but the ++ is reasonable
15:01:04 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think it's perlish
15:01:25 <ais523> but Perl is much more commonly used for golfing than C
15:01:33 <ais523> so I couldn't resist the temptation to golf a bit
15:01:43 <ais523> tbh, often the temptation to golf a bit gets me anyway
15:01:58 <ais523> but on serious projects I normally suppress it
15:02:00 <AnMaster> ais523, doxygen kind of kills that ;P
15:02:16 * ais523 imagines golfing documentation in such a way that it was still readable
15:02:22 <AnMaster> doxygen works wonders on supressing your urge to golf
15:03:39 <AnMaster> ais523, anything else you need help with explaining in cfunge?
15:03:51 <ais523> not right now, probably there will be later
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15:05:49 <ais523> looks mildly useful, presumably that becomes more and more useful the bigger your project gets
15:09:37 <ais523> hmm... should I put much effort into making IFFI work standalone?
15:10:08 <ais523> in theory, it could work like that, creating a Funge + COME FROM language
15:10:21 <ais523> without the need for an INTERCAL program connecting
15:10:48 <ais523> but that would mean reimplementing the INTERCAL call stack, etc., in cfunge, so it probably isn't worth doing
15:11:58 <AnMaster> ais523, my future CFFI would be way more straight forward, just a wrapper for libffi
15:12:22 <ais523> after all, you don't need COME FROM then
15:12:49 <AnMaster> and indeed doxygen is way more useful on larger projects
15:13:07 <AnMaster> but I did doxygen here in order to help third party developers
15:13:15 <AnMaster> I know my way around the code anyway
15:15:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I think the file list and desc what each file contains should be useful to you
15:16:48 <ais523> although ideally I won't have to touch any of cfunge apart from the main loop and fingerprint code
15:16:54 <ais523> in fact I still think it may be possible with unmodified sources, just with extra files being added
15:17:45 <AnMaster> just adding some comments to shut up some doxygen warnings
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15:28:14 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you call it when the IP's moving like it does in Befunge-93
15:28:21 <ais523> that is, one step at a time, orthogonally
15:31:19 <AnMaster> • If the IP’s delta is either (0,-1) (south), (1,0) (east), (0,1) (north), or (-1,0) (west), it is said to
15:31:19 <AnMaster> be travelling cardinally . This is the same as how a rook moves in chess and this is in fact
15:31:19 <AnMaster> the only way the IP can move in Befunge-93.
15:31:34 <AnMaster> • Any IP with a nonzero delta is considered moving.
15:31:35 <AnMaster> • Any IP with a zero delta is said to be stopped.
15:31:35 <AnMaster> • Any moving IP that is not travelling cardinally, and is not stopped, is said to be flying.
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15:32:04 <AnMaster> this is found in funge98 standard, but the copy was from my 108 draft
15:32:14 <ais523> as far as I'm concerned, if people are going to write a COME FROM non-cardinally, they can put the code to set the IP direction in themselves rather than the interp trying to guess
15:32:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what about pushing delta on stack?
15:33:13 <AnMaster> what parameters will your code have there?
15:34:29 <ais523> AnMaster: well, the point is that I have to try all the markers with all the possible cardinal deltas
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15:34:53 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: well, the point is that I have to try all the markers with all the possible cardinal deltas
15:34:54 <AnMaster> * ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
15:34:54 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> that doesn't make sense
15:35:19 <AnMaster> V_1 = position to set marker at
15:35:29 <ais523> well, suppose I have a line (100) in the INTERCAL code
15:35:31 <AnMaster> V_2 delta to use for ip when we start from here
15:35:36 <ais523> and COME FROM (100) in the Befunge code
15:35:51 <ais523> At current I'm planning that to be Maa*C
15:35:53 <AnMaster> ais523, you could make it take more parameters
15:36:05 <ais523> ah, you mean more metadata/
15:36:09 <ais523> that's an interesting idea
15:36:21 <AnMaster> for initial one you would have to have some defaults
15:36:34 <ais523> I kind of like the idea of a middot surrounded by arrowheads so that three of the directions are incorrect
15:36:37 <ais523> your way is saner, though
15:36:54 <ais523> but less visual in the source
15:37:58 <ais523> I think I'll finish writing the spec as I planned it originally
15:38:37 <AnMaster> well for initial marker allow just some directions
15:38:49 <AnMaster> for later markers I'd say allow more meta data
15:38:54 <ais523> well, yes, the four (/two/six) cardinal directions seem to make sense
15:39:03 <ais523> maybe each marker should have allowed directions
15:39:16 <AnMaster> well for initial marker: cardinal
15:39:18 <ais523> which defaults to all four cardinal directions to test in for a middot entry
15:39:24 <AnMaster> for adding new using fingerprint: any delta
15:39:39 <ais523> but when specifying them programmatically you can use any delta you like
15:39:41 <AnMaster> also how do you do initial marker's line number?
15:39:53 <ais523> AnMaster: the line numbers aren't metadata
15:39:58 <ais523> but instead specified in Funge code
15:40:10 <ais523> the markers are there to say where to start executing to determine the line number
15:40:22 <ais523> e.g. line 150 would be Maf*L
15:40:39 <ais523> that way you can have computed COME FROMs, computed line numbers, etc
15:46:29 <ais523> AnMaster: interesting point: if I try to do something that's an error in INTERCAL (such as NEXTing to a non-existent line) from inside Befunge, should it reflect as in Funge, or error out as in INTERCAL?
15:46:53 <AnMaster> it is a collisions of interests clearly
15:47:04 <ais523> probably the second is what'll happen if I don't special-case it
15:47:43 <ais523> not sure really, I'll have to think about it more
15:47:49 <ais523> reflecting would certainly be more useful
15:47:52 <AnMaster> Try `rm ./-d9A2oq1N38.flv' to remove the file `-d9A2oq1N38.flv'.
15:47:57 <ais523> but I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing
15:48:09 <AnMaster> interesting to see gnu rm being so bloated
15:48:24 * AnMaster did rm -- -d9A2oq1N38.flv tough
15:48:47 <ais523> AnMaster: I think it's trying to be user-friendly
15:48:55 <ais523> and that is at least a useful tip for people who don't know it
15:49:07 <ais523> besides, have you seen how bloated GNU true is?
15:49:31 <AnMaster> I could write one in like 3 lines C:
15:49:58 <ais523> AnMaster: IIRC there was a 0-byte implementation of true in some OS, but it was buggy
15:50:13 <AnMaster> for false just change to return 1
15:50:24 <AnMaster> ais523, a few lines of asm would also work
15:50:27 * ais523 wonders if a single colon would be a non-buggy implementation of true
15:50:34 <ais523> AnMaster: it's one byte of machine-code in DOS
15:50:41 <ais523> for rather convoluted reasons
15:50:46 <ais523> but DOS doesn't implement true anyway
15:51:04 <ais523> basically, it pushes a 0 on the stack before the program runs
15:51:20 <ais523> and the DOS equivalent of exit(0) is put at location 0 in the segment the .com file is loaded into
15:51:28 <ais523> specifically so doing a single return will exit the program
15:51:36 <ais523> it's for compatibility with some old OS
15:51:39 <ais523> that predates even DOS
15:53:21 <ais523> hmm... I have a Windows version of true on here that I wrote myself, which was basically your three-liner
15:53:32 <ais523> it's 172065 bytes as a .exe
15:53:44 <ais523> I wonder what all those bytes are used for?
15:54:02 <ais523> by comparison GNU true is only 22192
15:54:19 <ais523> BusyBox true is even smaller because it's a symlink, but that's cheating
15:56:32 <ais523> AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/7Ze8i339.html
15:56:37 <ais523> those are my partial specs so far
15:56:45 <ais523> I've put most of the flow-control stuff in there
15:58:10 <AnMaster> "The fingerprint adds a new mode to the IP, known as 'mark mode'."
15:58:16 <AnMaster> how do you plan to store this?
15:58:23 <ais523> in static variables in my own stuff
15:58:30 <ais523> other Funge commands have no way to change it
15:58:36 <ais523> because it can exist at the same time as other modes
15:58:42 <ais523> maybe I should clarify that a bit differently
15:58:49 <ais523> but it's possible to be in mark-stringmode for instance
15:59:04 <ais523> although I'm not sure what would happen if something like L was hit whilst still in stringmode
15:59:15 <ais523> actually, clearly it wouldn't run the command
15:59:18 <ais523> it would just push it on the stack
15:59:23 <ais523> that's what stringmode does, after all
16:00:46 <AnMaster> ais523, what should happen on a @
16:01:08 <ais523> that's consistent between C exit() and INTERCAL GIVE UP
16:01:15 <ais523> so it should be consistent to Befunge @ too
16:01:18 <AnMaster> ais523, do you need to do any clean up on your side?
16:01:26 <AnMaster> because cfunge simply calls exit()
16:01:30 <ais523> well, deallocating memory's nice, but apart from that no
16:01:41 <AnMaster> ais523, you could use atexit() then
16:01:48 <ais523> yes, I thought the same thing myself
16:01:55 <ais523> but that'll be something to do later
16:02:04 <ais523> because the OS frees the memory
16:02:10 <ais523> and because it affects more than just fffungi
16:02:37 <ais523> DOS doesn't free after program end IIRC, but then I don't know if cfunge would run on it
16:02:50 <ais523> probably it would under DJGPP, it might need some tweaking though
16:02:59 <AnMaster> I'm not sure I see what C is doing
16:03:21 <ais523> AnMaster: basically M5C does a COME FROM from line 5
16:03:33 <ais523> nothing if it's encountered in program flow, it just pushes then pops the 5
16:03:56 <ais523> but if line 5 is encountered, it's run in mark-mode, the C compares 5 to 5, finds they're equal, and seizes control
16:20:07 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you define a new come from label
16:20:19 <AnMaster> and how do you remove an existing?
16:20:21 <ais523> what, the label to come from, or the come from itself?
16:20:35 <ais523> ah, you edit the playfield to add a marker, code to compute the label, and an L
16:20:45 <ais523> to remove an existing you simply demetadata the marker
16:21:00 <AnMaster> well here is how I would do it:
16:21:03 <ais523> although you can wipe that area of the playfield clean instead or as well if you like
16:21:22 <AnMaster> N <line number to come from> <x, y to go to> <x,y for delta>
16:21:40 <AnMaster> the first to add, the second to remove
16:21:58 <ais523> the second doesn't make sense when there are two COME FROMs aiming at the same line
16:22:03 <ais523> admittedly, you probably don't want to do that
16:22:10 <ais523> but it's legal so long as that line's never encountered
16:22:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well you could involve concurrency in this XD
16:22:28 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what INTERCAL does in that situation
16:22:41 <ais523> but one issue with that is it only gives you noncomputed COME FROMs
16:22:50 <ais523> both INTERCAL and C support computed COME FROMs
16:23:12 <AnMaster> but computed come from I don't get
16:23:17 <ais523> you just COME FROM an expression
16:23:25 <ais523> whenever a line label is reached, that expression's evaluated
16:23:27 <AnMaster> computed come from would be exceedingly slow right?
16:23:34 <AnMaster> need to be checked once every line
16:23:38 <ais523> and if it evaluates to the same value as the label, you do the COME FROM
16:23:41 <ais523> and yes, it is pretty slow
16:23:47 <ais523> although not all lines are labeled in INTERCAL
16:23:51 <ais523> which speeds it up to some extent
16:28:48 <ais523> not right now, I don't think
16:29:20 <AnMaster> ais523, will there be a way to do non-computed COME FROM in your fingerprint?
16:29:33 <ais523> that's just COME FROM with a constant expression
16:29:43 <ais523> do you think there should be an optimised way?
16:29:58 <ais523> AnMaster: not the way I was planning to implement it, it's a bit difficult to optimise
16:30:08 <AnMaster> and yes I think it should be an optimized way, though you could do it optimized anyway
16:30:16 <ais523> it can't be compiled into a goto, for instance because Funge can't be compiled
16:30:17 <AnMaster> monitor those cells for change
16:30:48 * AnMaster has pondered JIT of befunge for quite some time
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16:37:34 <AnMaster> <ais523> it can't be compiled into a goto, for instance because Funge can't be compiled
16:37:34 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> monitor those cells for change
16:37:34 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, what about JITing?
16:37:34 <AnMaster> * AnMaster has pondered JIT of befunge for quite some time
16:37:34 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> but JIT is unportable
16:38:04 <ais523> and I thought JIT was a compilation technique, so how can it be unportable?
16:38:13 <ais523> ah, you mean that it would need to compile into machine code
16:38:57 <Sgeo> ais523, the registered Sgeo on Agora is I
16:39:16 <ais523> Sgeo: good, I thought so, but given the circumstances it was worth checking
16:39:25 <ais523> and I seriously doubt you're ehird in disguise
16:39:52 <Sgeo> Maybe he had this disguise lurking for years just for this possibility muahahahah! j/k
16:40:55 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed machine code :/
16:41:03 <AnMaster> and llvm is some pretty cool stuff
16:43:35 <Sgeo> As a player, I have to read EVERY public message?
16:44:14 <Sgeo> 11:42 AM (1 hour ago)
16:44:24 <Sgeo> ais523, are you a time traveller?
16:44:49 <ais523> also, you don't have to read every public message
16:45:00 <ais523> however sending a public message is an accepted way of informing you of something
16:45:19 <ais523> so you can't claim ignorance of the contents of a public message
16:45:26 <ais523> take this conversation over to ##nomic?
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17:09:41 <tusho> ais523: i would appreciate your approval
17:10:20 <tusho> Sgeo: the beat-ais523-greeting-me competition
17:10:53 <Sgeo> WHY AM I STILL ON THE COMPUTER?!
17:11:21 <Sgeo> I have somewhere I want to be at 1:30 my time
17:11:30 <Sgeo> and I still need to look for clothing and eat
17:11:41 <Sgeo> Although I can only be there 4 hours out of 9.5hrs
17:11:52 -!- ais523_ has joined.
17:12:01 <tusho> I got you while your network was fucked evidently!
17:12:14 <tusho> still, i got you much less than a second after actually joining, so I'd have beat you anyway
17:12:21 <ais523_> from my point of view, I won
17:12:23 <ais523_> from your point of view, you did
17:12:27 <ais523_> but the logs will have stated you won
17:12:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:12:33 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
17:12:37 <tusho> ais523_: unless you scripted it, no way
17:12:42 <tusho> I had 'hi ais523' on the clipboard
17:12:50 <tusho> and as soon as I saw 'esoteric' appear in the sidebar, CMD-VENTER
17:13:03 <tusho> it'll have come late to you because of your network problems
17:13:15 <ais523> no, it actually didn't arrive at all
17:13:31 <tusho> assuming a good network I probably would have won
17:13:40 <tusho> Sgeo: oh, and I suspect oerjan has better things to do than play agora
17:13:44 <tusho> like writing papers and stuff.
17:15:54 * AnMaster ponders adding a hi tusho script
17:16:09 <AnMaster> because I never disconnect my client
17:16:34 <AnMaster> as for this night's disconnect: power outage
17:16:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not online at all much of the time
17:16:53 <ais523> so it would be a bit hard to be connected
17:17:27 <ais523> unless, presumably, I run a friendly bot on some always connected server and actually implement /nickswap...
17:20:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:20:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:23:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:24:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:32:15 <tusho> ais523: cmeme kept joining/parting
17:32:17 <tusho> so lament banned em
17:32:19 <ais523> tusho: what's with all the pinging random people that's going on today?
17:32:27 <tusho> ais523: techncially, seveninchbread talked earlier
17:32:29 <tusho> 03:52:18 <SevenInchBread> ..
17:32:44 <ais523> and lament banned the logbot? presumably, it's worth trying letting it back in to see if it helps
17:32:45 <tusho> i was just joining the bandwagon
17:32:50 <ais523> and it can always be banned again
17:32:53 <tusho> ais523: i think e unbanned the logbot, but it never returned
17:33:07 <tusho> atsampson: hey!! you're not dead
17:33:16 <atsampson> I wouldn't go that far -- it is Friday evening ;)
17:33:34 * atsampson wanders off to fight the Amazon courier service
17:34:25 <Sgeo> Are yyou about to talk about doing things at the last minute?
17:34:36 <Sgeo> I just had some rather strong deja vu
17:35:08 <tusho> http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/index.cgi/org.aspectj/modules/weaver/src/org/aspectj/weaver/patterns/HasThisTypePatternTriedToSneakInSomeGenericOrParameterizedTypePatternMatchingStuffAnywhereVisitor.java?revision=1.1&root=Tools_Project
18:01:57 * Sgeo is more active in ##nomic
18:02:04 <AnMaster> anyone up for pinging everyone in this channel?
18:02:52 <ais523> oklopol: stop faking your ping time responses, it's silly
18:03:06 <tusho> AAA_AAA ais523 AnMaster atsampson augur bsmntbombdood cctoide cherez clog Corun Deewiant Dewi fizzie ihope Ilari jamesstanley Judofyr lament lifthras1ir mtve oklopol Polar puzzlet RodgerTheGreat sebbu sekhmet Sgeo shachaf SimonRC Slereah_ timotiis tusho
18:03:09 <ais523> oh, and ihope won that little ping race
18:03:11 <tusho> ais523: his client does that
18:03:20 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: i pinged everyone
18:03:29 <ais523> tusho: that's just pingspam
18:03:43 <augur> tusho dont make me rape you.
18:03:59 <tusho> ais523: AnMaster proposed it
18:04:04 <tusho> everything he says is logical and rational
18:04:12 <AnMaster> nice to see this channel alive!
18:04:21 <augur> ANMASTER IS AN ASS.
18:04:24 <ais523> yes, but in the wrong way
18:04:29 <ais523> I pinged everyone too, but via ctcp
18:04:44 <AnMaster> it was tusho that didn't get the joke
18:04:53 <augur> *the previous statement should be read in the voice of Shake, from Aqua Teen Hunger Force
18:04:59 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from cherez: 0.31 second(s)
18:04:59 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from Sgeo: 0.55 second(s)
18:04:59 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from clog: 0.57 second(s)
18:05:08 <ais523> oh, ihope won when I tried
18:05:35 <AnMaster> we are probably on different servers
18:05:36 <ais523> tusho: now to do that in #ubuntu...
18:05:53 <ais523> and no, you'll just get banned
18:05:58 <cherez> Mark my words: you will have been on fire recently in the near future!
18:06:04 <AnMaster> tusho, do it in #wikipedia rather
18:06:07 <tusho> ais523: glad I use os x then :-P
18:06:09 <tusho> AnMaster: #ubuntu's bigger
18:06:10 <ais523> cherez: ha, a decent use of the future perfect
18:06:19 <AnMaster> tusho, but ais523 is a wikipedia admin
18:06:32 <ais523> I'm not a wikipedia chanop
18:06:32 <tusho> wikipedia admin != #wikipedia op
18:06:39 <tusho> there's like 500 wikipedia admins.
18:06:44 <tusho> can there be that many chanops?
18:06:44 <cherez> ais523: It rarely gets used in English, so I try to bring it back when I can.
18:06:57 <tusho> anyway, editors with like a few months of experience get adminship over there, it's bizzare :-P
18:07:05 <ais523> cherez: worth it, although Feather requires a whole new set of tenses
18:07:09 <AnMaster> <cherez> Mark my words: you will have been on fire recently in the near future! <-- is that valid?
18:07:17 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I parsed it
18:07:45 <ais523> AnMaster: it means that at some point in the future, someone (probably tusho) will have been on fire recently
18:07:45 -!- pingspam has joined.
18:08:08 <tusho> pingspam: hi AnMaster
18:08:16 <oklopol> what's weird about future perfect
18:08:30 <tusho> i can't think of anyone else who would use tor in here
18:08:32 -!- pingspam has quit (Client Quit).
18:08:53 <cherez> It's not fun if they don't have to spend a little while grokking.
18:08:59 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't even have tor on this pda
18:09:05 <ais523> tusho: I've learnt through experience to deny your denials in such cases
18:09:17 <ais523> I still think it was you who wrote a bot to vandalise the canada ruleset
18:09:51 <AnMaster> augur, ouch, maybe write a esoteric language bemoaning this fact?
18:10:00 <oklopol> 20:02… ais523: oklopol: stop faking your ping time responses, it's silly <<< what?
18:10:13 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from oklopol: 1214535396.53 second(s)
18:10:26 <ais523> oklopol: well, I get 15 seconds within less than a second when I ping you
18:10:33 <ais523> anyway, faking ping responses was my idea first!
18:10:40 <tusho> clients do it quite often
18:10:40 <ais523> and then I find nnscript's done it all along
18:10:44 <tusho> just as a 'oh shut up'
18:10:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I get a whole 1214535396 seconds
18:10:56 <ais523> AnMaster: probably our clients encode the ping timer different ways
18:11:08 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I think it uses unsigned int...
18:11:14 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood, where?
18:11:18 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: no, how did that happen?
18:11:28 <ais523> and has it become a worm?
18:14:22 <tusho> ais523: it's a JS that, when run, posts {Copy and paste the following to Notepad, save with the filename "4chan.js", open the file you created and shit bricks.}
18:14:25 <tusho> followed by its own code
18:14:32 <tusho> to 4chan, repeatedly
18:14:35 <ais523> so it's a JS honor virus
18:14:54 <bsmntbombdood> it spams /b/ with a message telling people to run itself
18:14:58 <tusho> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/4chan.js#Unencoded_script
18:15:16 <oklopol> well, server the purpose of obfuscation, but there should be a separate word for real obfuscation, and that kind of trivial code hiding
18:15:35 <tusho> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/8/81/4chanjsshit3.PNG ok this made me laugh
18:19:27 <tusho> <oklopol> wow, sex partners
18:19:28 <tusho> <augur> what in gods name
18:19:30 <tusho> #esoteric is modern art
18:19:57 <ais523> tusho: actually, I've been thinking that esolangs are an art form for a while, and the associated channel seems to be a different art form
18:20:29 <tusho> ais523: only after augur and oklopol and Slereah_
18:20:33 <tusho> they kind of mesh with the rest of the channel
18:20:35 <tusho> and it explodes into art
18:23:09 <oklopol> tusho: well actually, i got redirected to a page that told me there are cheap sex partners in turku :D
18:23:18 <tusho> oklopol: o, that's the interstial ads
18:23:20 <tusho> you click Skip Ads
18:23:30 <augur> oklopol, im very cheap
18:23:34 <augur> just not in turku :(
18:24:05 <ais523> oklopol: between the sts
18:25:46 <augur> whats the full JS in that post?
18:26:17 <ais523> actually, the challenge is to golf that JS down to 510 characters, plus the IRC stuff that goes on at the start of the line
18:26:26 <ais523> AnMaster: I've been doing other things for a while, sorry
18:26:33 <ais523> the ffungi window is still open but not typed in
18:27:10 <ais523> I support that blargh.
18:27:24 <oklopol> well that script obviously cheats the quine part, so it's not really an interesting task
18:27:40 <ais523> oklopol: how do you cheatquine in JS?
18:27:44 <augur> heh. i think its interesting that the script preys on windows users.
18:27:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
18:27:56 <ais523> ah, by using JS's method of outputting the source for a function?
18:27:57 <oklopol> ais523: dunno, but something there has to read the source.
18:28:10 <ais523> augur: a quine that doesn't use "legitimate" techinques
18:28:13 <oklopol> i didn't actually read it, because i don't know half the functions used
18:28:17 <ais523> e.g. a quine that reads the program's source code from disk
18:28:19 <augur> oh, you mean one that reads its own source?
18:28:25 <ais523> yes, that sort of thing
18:28:30 <ais523> or the Q command in HQ9+
18:28:38 <ais523> or arguably any PHP program that doesn't contain <
18:28:47 <ais523> but that one's more debatable
18:28:51 <augur> thats ever so slightly tricky i think.
18:29:01 <oklopol> f = WSH.createobject("scripting.filesystemobject")
18:29:01 <oklopol> g = f.opentextfile(WSH.scriptfullname)
18:29:20 <ais523> oklopol: ugh, they should have done it genuinely
18:29:20 <augur> that only works with some weird WSH thing which isnt standard JS
18:29:32 <tusho> the instructions say save it as 4chan.js
18:29:45 <augur> you can do it without that i think.
18:29:47 <ais523> after all, in JS if you cast a function to a string you get its source code
18:29:48 <oklopol> yeah, that is an instant hint it cheats
18:29:53 <tusho> yes, augur, but it uses WSH for other stuff
18:29:54 <ais523> that's pretty easy to do
18:30:12 <augur> but that doesnt print the script as a whole
18:30:59 <ais523> augur: it's easy enough to quote the bit around it in the function itself
18:31:02 <oklopol> augur: but it's trivial to do the rest
18:31:07 <tusho> function f(){var me = "function f(){" + f.toString() + "};f();";};f()
18:31:13 <tusho> function f(){var me = "function f(){" + f.toString() + "};f();";};f();
18:31:19 <tusho> 'me' is the program
18:31:39 <ais523> tusho: actually I think toString gives the name of the function as well
18:32:05 <tusho> function f(){var me = f.toString() + ";f();"; ...};f();
18:32:10 <tusho> technically that has extra whitespace
18:32:12 <tusho> (it reindents the code)
18:32:18 <ais523> javascript:function f(){var me = f.toString() + ";f();"; alert(me);};f();
18:32:22 <tusho> so you can't use obfuscation with it.
18:32:25 <ais523> except that Firefox pretty-prints it
18:32:30 <tusho> ais523: it's required
18:32:32 <ais523> it's a do-the-same-thing quine, anyway
18:32:39 <tusho> that way wouldn't let you obfuscate it
18:32:43 <tusho> which is required for that worm to work well
18:32:45 <augur> you dont need ; after the } in the function definition
18:32:52 <augur> secondlt, you dont need f.toString
18:32:55 <tusho> but you need a newline instead
18:32:55 <ais523> tusho: yes you could obfuscate it like that
18:33:01 <tusho> we know javascript, jeez
18:33:05 <tusho> 're not the only one in here
18:33:08 <tusho> we were just hacking it up on irc
18:33:21 <tusho> and ... so you don't need to tell us :\
18:33:39 <augur> then act like you know it without me needing to tell you. :)
18:33:40 <ais523> tusho: you could put the source code for a JS obfuscator inside the quine if you wanted to
18:33:47 <oklopol> yeah augur, how silly of you to think me, tusho or ais523 wouldn't know a language that exists.
18:33:49 <tusho> ais523: well yes, but.
18:34:01 <tusho> oklopol: ais523 has written quite a lot of esolang interps in JS
18:34:04 <tusho> most of his interps are, in fact
18:34:08 <tusho> they're on the esowiki
18:34:13 <tusho> and readily linked
18:34:14 <ais523> tusho: I've written at least one esolang interp in JS
18:34:20 <tusho> ais523: at least 3
18:34:22 <ais523> also a BF-minus-input to Underload compiler
18:34:28 <ais523> tusho: probably, I lose track
18:34:28 <augur> (function f() { alert("(" + f+")()"; })()
18:34:34 <oklopol> tusho: i don't know what your point is, but good to know :P
18:34:42 <oklopol> i did know ais523 knows js
18:35:11 <oklopol> i've written nothing in js, i think
18:35:35 <ais523> also I wrote quite a few scripts for Wikipedia in JS
18:35:39 <oklopol> well, i know it well enough to use it, i don't prolly know much about its specific coolnesses.
18:36:05 <ais523> oklopol: coolnesses: cloning-based object model, lambdas, exceptions
18:36:16 <ais523> oh and a really sane syntax for objects
18:36:40 <oklopol> in fact, oklotalk "stole" js:s object model somewhat, although i learned about js after designing it.
18:36:56 <oklopol> it's just it did exist before ot, and it's very similar
18:36:59 <tusho> alert("(" + arguments.callee + ")();");
18:37:02 <tusho> a real quine in firefox
18:37:07 <tusho> (i.e. actually the same text)
18:37:15 <oklopol> ais523: really sane syntax for objects?
18:37:20 <augur> tusho: thats basically what i wrote before.
18:37:23 <augur> only more verbose.
18:37:30 <tusho> augur: except yours didn't output the same string bit for bit.
18:37:31 <ais523> compare to Java for instance
18:37:41 <tusho> because function's string conversion prettyprints in all browesrs I know.
18:37:42 <oklopol> i haven't tried it out, but i like the model, and have invented it a few times
18:37:53 <tusho> oklopol: {prop: value, prop: value, ...}
18:37:54 <augur> tusho: not terribly relevant since whitespace is semantically empty.
18:37:58 <augur> add back in the whitespace if you want.
18:38:01 <tusho> augur: a quine outputs its code byte for byte
18:38:08 <ais523> augur: well, your program outputs a quine, at least
18:38:14 <oklopol> i have that in a few of my languages as well
18:38:26 <augur> you used arguments.callee which is unnecessary, tusho.
18:38:34 <ais523> also, methods are just properties which are functions
18:38:38 <tusho> augur: naming things is for losers
18:38:49 <tusho> and arguments.callee is fun
18:38:53 <augur> losers and people who want small functions.
18:39:01 <ais523> now try to do it by overriding Array()
18:39:07 <tusho> let's get offended that I made your quine actually be a quine
18:39:09 <tusho> it's a great topic
18:39:11 <augur> furthermore, named functions like that are the same as arguments.callee
18:39:11 <ais523> note that they don't allow that in FF3 because it's a security risk
18:39:13 <tusho> i think we should whine about it all day
18:39:35 <oklopol> tusho: why the fuck did you do that?
18:39:42 <oklopol> what's augur done to deserve such bashing
18:40:00 <tusho> oklopol: his previous bashing; and the fact that he wouldn't shut up about it
18:40:05 <augur> tusho: let me prove to you why you're wrong: string outputting for function code is dependent on browser, and therefore yours is no more a quine then mine.
18:40:16 <tusho> augur: i stated 'in FF'
18:41:09 <augur> hey dont blame me, tushos the one being a child.
18:41:14 <oklopol> i want to code up something
18:41:27 <oklopol> augur: whatever you say :P
18:41:27 <tusho> augur: pretty sure you agreed to shut the fuck up about my age.
18:41:36 <ais523> AnMaster: I haven't started again
18:41:48 <augur> tusho: i wasn't referencing your age, but i figured you'd think that given your current mental state.
18:42:05 <oklopol> tusho: don't worry, you usually appear the more mature one :P
18:42:11 <augur> in case you were unaware, tusho, saying someones acting like a child is not a reference to their age
18:42:15 <augur> but a reference to their behavior
18:42:19 <tusho> but it was clearly a reference
18:42:22 <oklopol> although often the more annoying one.
18:42:26 <augur> actually it clearly wasnt
18:42:44 <tusho> i've been trying to shut up about this for the past like 10 messages, can we actually do that now
18:42:57 <augur> i find it interesting that you're so worked up about the quine that you're this irrational, tusho.
18:43:09 <augur> maybe you should go have a nice cup of tea and come back when you've calmed down.
18:43:19 <tusho> i find it interesting that you evidently find this conversation fulfilling, worthwhile, or indeed useful, when I just suggested we drop it.
18:43:24 <oklopol> yeah cuz he's british, haha
18:43:36 <augur> i know. hes british. oh those brits.
18:43:49 <oklopol> heh also nap cuz he's so young :P
18:44:01 <augur> hey hey hey, dont mention his age
18:45:00 <tusho> augur: i don't see why you always make everything spiral out of control into pointless bickering whenever you say something and I point out an error I see in it
18:45:08 <tusho> it's really damn tiring
18:45:18 <augur> tusho, where did _I_ make this spiral out of control?
18:45:18 <tusho> especially when I ask if we can stop and you start commenting about the conversation
18:45:43 <tusho> if you're trying to come out of this more mature than me I don't think you're going very far
18:45:44 <augur> could it have been when i acted like a fucking twat and said stupid shit like
18:45:45 <augur> "let's get offended that I made your quine actually be a quine"
18:45:49 <augur> oh, wait, that was you!
18:46:03 <augur> thats right, YOURE the one who started acting like an idiot, silly me.
18:47:03 <RodgerTheGreat> "c'mon guys geez I was obviously acting like an idiot ironically your sarcasm meters are broken I'm not actually being an asshole honest"
18:47:33 -!- tusho has left (?).
18:47:50 <AnMaster> yay tusho left, now you can code ais523!
18:49:01 <augur> so on to more interesting things
18:49:29 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
18:51:25 <augur> i downloaded a torrent the other day
18:51:33 <augur> it had like a hundred books on CS subjects
18:51:37 <augur> mostly AI-related stuff
18:51:41 <augur> but lots of other stuff too
18:52:00 <lament> now you have to read them all
18:53:16 <augur> im reading one right now actually
18:55:17 -!- RedDak has joined.
18:55:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:55:35 <augur> oh also, awesome music:
18:55:45 <augur> wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Dream.zip
18:56:44 <oklopol> zips usually just sounds like white noise to me
18:57:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
18:58:22 <augur> ive actually got a 30 second brown noise loop i can send you
18:58:29 <augur> its great for going to sleep. :o
18:59:08 <ais523> javascript:var y="X",x="javascript:var y=\"X\",x=\"X\".split(y);alert(x[0]+y+x[1]+x.join(y).split('\\\\').join('\\\\\\\\').split(\"\\\"\").join(\"\\\\\"\")+x[2]);".split(y);alert(x[0]+y+x[1]+x.join(y).split('\\').join('\\\\').split("\"").join("\\\"")+x[2]);
18:59:15 <ais523> there are probably simpler ways to do that, though
19:02:05 <augur> christ almighty wtf is that?!
19:02:06 -!- tusho has joined.
19:02:36 <oklopol> but i don't actually feel like running it in my head
19:02:39 <augur> ais thats ridiculous. lol
19:02:40 <ais523> to be precise, it's a URL quine
19:02:47 <ais523> because I included the javascript: at the start in it
19:03:49 <oklopol> glah, i hate imperative quines.
19:04:18 <tusho> (\x -> x ++ show x) "(\x -> x ++ show x) "
19:04:31 <oklopol> i love functional quines :P
19:04:35 <tusho> ap (++) show "ap (++) show " -- this works too I think
19:05:18 <tusho> oklopol: ap is a monad thing
19:06:09 <tusho> oklopol: basically
19:06:15 <tusho> ap m1 m2 = do { x1 <- m1; x2 <- m2; return (x1 x2) }
19:06:25 <tusho> in this case we use it with the function monad
19:06:31 <ais523> tusho: function monad?
19:06:46 <tusho> tusho: @src (->) return
19:06:46 <tusho> [19:07] lambdabot: return = const
19:06:46 <tusho> [19:07] tusho: @src (->) (>>=)
19:06:47 <tusho> [19:07] lambdabot: f >>= k = \ r -> k (f r) r
19:07:07 <tusho> ais523: it's the Reader monad
19:07:12 <tusho> but without the wrapper of Reader
19:07:26 <tusho> (and 'ask' becomes 'id')
19:07:54 <tusho> main = putStrLn $ ap (++) show "main = putStrLn $ ap (++) show "
19:08:37 <augur> a rough conversion of tusho's functional quine: (function (f) {alert("(" + f + ")(\"" + f + "\");"); })("function (f) { alert((\" + f + \")(\\\"\" + f + \"\\\");\"); }");
19:08:56 <tusho> that's basically right
19:09:03 <tusho> but it's imperative and has backslash syndrome
19:09:55 <augur> yeah, backslashes are, well..
19:10:25 <ais523> augur: that's why I use directed quotes in Underload
19:10:45 <ais523> strings are delimited by ()
19:10:47 <oklopol> separate quote for open and close
19:11:05 <ais523> incidentally, INTERCAL causes brilliant confusion by using undirected parens in expressions
19:11:08 <oklopol> ( for open, ) for close, instead of " for both
19:11:09 <ais523> as the opposite of that
19:11:22 <oklopol> ais523: like doesn't matter which you use?
19:11:34 <ais523> oklopol: no, you enclose groups in ' ' or " "
19:11:44 <ais523> so in C you'd write, say, (1 + 1) * 3
19:11:56 <ais523> with INTERCAL parenising that would be " ' 1 + 1 ' * 3 "
19:12:05 <tusho> ais523: is it whitespace sensitive
19:12:11 <ais523> I was just making it easier to read
19:12:12 <oklopol> ah, yeah, i should've known that
19:12:21 <augur> ais, how do you quote a (?
19:12:24 <ais523> a huge run of ' and " all mashed together is a pain to read in a variable-width font
19:12:25 <oklopol> ais523: nopol has <> for lists, and >< for negative lists!
19:12:31 <ais523> augur: you can't, ( and ) always come in pairs
19:12:40 <ais523> you can use the a command to enclose something in ( )
19:12:57 <augur> so then quines cant be produced with strings
19:12:57 <ais523> and in Underload, there's no way to modify the contents of a string, just append things to it and prepend things to it
19:13:09 <ais523> you just use a to create a pair of parens
19:13:10 <augur> you'd need to quote (
19:13:15 <oklopol> i'd like (1 + 1) * 3 to be 1 + )1 * 3( in a language
19:13:34 <ais523> oklopol: wasn't there a BF version which swapped + with - and [ with ]?
19:13:39 <augur> oklopol, dont be silly
19:13:42 <ais523> another silly BF derivative
19:13:46 <oklopol> ais523: how's that similar?
19:13:51 <augur> it'd have to be 1 + 1) * 3(
19:13:56 <ais523> augur: because [ and ] go the wrong way round
19:14:07 <oklopol> ais523: that's not nearly the same
19:14:16 <tusho> <augur> oklopol, dont be silly
19:14:21 <ais523> oklopol: oh, yes, I misread it
19:14:22 * tusho points to the sign saying "#esoteric"
19:14:39 <oklopol> augur: 1 + )1 * 3( will work just fine
19:14:50 <augur> actually, you know
19:14:58 <augur> its easy to transform that into sensible stuff
19:14:59 <ais523> ah, the ) and ( reduce the precedence of everything inside them?
19:15:02 <ais523> as opposed to increasing precedence?
19:15:06 <augur> just move each ) and ( to the right one
19:15:17 <augur> oklopol: obviously that cant be true
19:15:31 <augur> there is no precedence for 1*3 in the statement (1+1) * 3
19:15:42 <ais523> augur: yes, but * has a precedence
19:15:52 <ais523> imagine, say, that * and / have precedence 2, and + and - have precedence 1
19:16:09 <ais523> say parens increase the precedence of everything inside them by 2, but otherwise have no meaning
19:16:13 <oklopol> )( will not be a context insensitive construct.
19:16:19 <ais523> then you can parse strings of + - * / without trouble
19:16:19 <augur> sure, but decreasing precedence is somewhat nonsensical by grouping like that.
19:16:20 <oklopol> there will not be a trivial conversion
19:16:32 <ais523> augur: no, it works too, in much the same way
19:16:46 <oklopol> augur: seems nonsensical because of the lack of context insensitivity
19:16:49 <augur> precedence only arises with composite op composite-or-atomic
19:17:04 <oklopol> but otherwise there's nothing nonsensical about it.
19:17:20 <ais523> oklopol: oh, my version of how it worked was context-insensitive
19:17:26 <ais523> to keep it simple, say there's only one op o
19:17:30 <augur> 1 + )1 * 3( makes no sense because the operation 1*3 has no precedence in the semantics.
19:17:39 <ais523> (1 o (2 o 3)) o 4 is how it would look normally
19:18:06 <ais523> 1 o 2) o ((3 o 4)) is how it would go in reverse-paren notation
19:18:09 <oklopol> ais523: context insensitive in syntax, but not in semantics
19:18:13 <ais523> sorry, (1 o 2) o ((3 o 4))
19:18:16 <augur> its the * that has precedence so you would need to do something like
19:18:21 <ais523> and all those parens are backwards
19:18:38 <ais523> oklopol: well, maybe I have a different idea from you
19:18:51 <ais523> I think I have the same idea as augur, except I moved the parens to just outside the closest operands
19:18:56 <oklopol> anyway, stop all of you, it took me a second to come up with the perfect way, stop slowly spelling it out for me :P
19:19:16 <oklopol> well, i have no idea what augur is doing
19:19:23 <oklopol> ais523: i'm sure it's the same
19:19:42 <augur> oklopol: you're silly.
19:19:53 <augur> im simply saying that 1 + )1 * 3( makes no sense
19:20:02 <tusho> augur: two people disagree with you
19:20:05 <oklopol> augur: yeah, you say a lot of things that make no sense
19:20:06 <ais523> augur: yes it does, the ) ( reduce the precedence of *
19:20:07 <tusho> so uh, i guess maybe it does make sense
19:20:16 <ais523> and they're moved outside the operands for aesthetics
19:20:19 <augur> ais: but thats not how precedence works.
19:20:28 <ais523> augur: yes it is, in this system
19:20:34 <ais523> it may not be how you use precedence normally
19:20:40 <oklopol> augur: really, it's just that the semantics aren't context insensitive, which you automatically assume from a nesting construct.
19:20:48 <augur> i mean, sure if you say that )( work only on the operator they enclose, ignoring the operands, then thats fine
19:20:49 <ais523> but precedence is equivalent to "parens increase the precedence of everything inside them by a lot"
19:20:54 <augur> but its not the reverse of () in any sense.
19:20:55 <ais523> augur: yes, that is what I mean
19:21:06 <ais523> and the ( ) are also put around the operands for no good reason
19:21:07 <augur> because the stuff inside )( has no precedence.
19:21:20 <augur> actually they're put around the operands for a very good reason
19:21:45 <ais523> I mean, 1 (o 2 (o)) 3 o 4 is equivalent to (1 o (2 o 3)) o 4
19:21:46 <augur> () are part of ordered rules.
19:21:58 <ais523> it's just that the second looks nicer
19:22:09 <augur> actually no its not the same ais :P
19:22:23 <ais523> yes it is, the way I'm doing it
19:22:36 <ais523> in fact, if ( is "increase the precedence of the things to the right of here by a lot"
19:22:46 <ais523> and ) is "increase the precedence of things to the left of here by a lot"
19:22:51 <augur> the way you're doing it is not the reverse of () and therefore not relevant to the original problem. :P
19:22:58 <oklopol> no, ) = decrease to the right, ais523, i think
19:23:02 <ais523> then you get a nice balanced notation that works both for forward and for backward ()
19:23:11 <oklopol> of course works your way too
19:23:15 <ais523> oklopol: it's equivalent
19:23:23 <ais523> your way's nicer because it leads to smaller numbers, of course
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19:23:35 <ais523> hmm... we could end up with paren golf!
19:23:47 <augur> ais: your way is a bitch to parse too. :P
19:23:52 <ais523> that isn't even balanced
19:23:55 <ais523> and my way is trivial to parse
19:24:04 <ais523> using traditional operator-precedence algorithms
19:24:10 <ais523> it's just the parens dynamically change precedences
19:24:18 <ais523> this way, you don't even need left- and right-precedences
19:24:25 <ais523> so it handles parens more naturally than the old method
19:24:39 <oklopol> yeah, it's just augur wants to parse the syntactically context insensitive construct straightforwardly into a context insensitive ast
19:24:59 <ais523> oklopol: yes, the parens vanish altogether in the parsetree
19:25:02 <augur> actually i just want to use ordered rules. i like them better. ;)
19:25:03 <ais523> but that's as it should be
19:25:20 <augur> ordered rules make precedence a breeze, since its inherent in the system.
19:26:17 <oklopol> ais523: for golfing your original, (1 o (2 o 3)) o 4 => 1 o 2( o ))3 o 4, ay?
19:26:31 <ais523> oklopol: yes, that works
19:26:51 <oklopol> why haven't i ever teamed you @ language creation, you get me :)
19:27:18 <tusho> me + ais523 + oklopol
19:27:21 <augur> wouldnt that really need to be 1 o 2) o ((3 o 4?
19:27:47 <ais523> you have the parens the wrong way round
19:28:12 <augur> but then () is behaving like normal and increasing precedence inside
19:28:32 <ais523> augur: that's right, but it's decreasing precedence outside
19:28:46 <ais523> so it's symmetrically-acting parens
19:28:53 <ais523> which can be placed anywhere in the input string without trouble
19:28:58 <augur> but its exactly the same then as the normal kind
19:29:07 <ais523> augur: no, its an extension to the normal kind
19:29:16 <augur> its a trivial conversion from that to the normal kind
19:29:25 <ais523> yes, that's what I was trying to say all along
19:29:42 <augur> oklopol was trying to make it exceedingly non-trivial in appearance
19:29:49 <augur> make it seem reversed.
19:30:12 <augur> your whole big thing is reversing, what are you talking about
19:30:23 <ais523> that's much nicer with reverse parens than normal parens
19:30:29 <ais523> compare to 1 o (2 o 3) o 4
19:30:33 <ais523> there's a nice duality there
19:30:45 <ais523> so you can pick whatever parens suit the job
19:31:12 <oklopol> o (o) (o (o)) o -> 1 2 2 3 1 -> 3 2 2 1 2 -> ((o) o o) o (o)
19:31:21 <augur> but with your version that should be 1 o 2( o )3 o 4
19:31:30 <oklopol> o (o) (o (o)) o -> 1 2 2 3 1 -> 3 2 2 1 3 -> ((o) o o) o ((o))
19:31:54 <oklopol> o (o o (o)) o -> 1 2 2 3 1 -> 3 2 2 1 3 -> ((o) o o) o ((o))
19:32:15 <ais523> incidentally, the trick to reading INTERCAL expressions is to treat ' followed by an operand as an opening paren, and ' preceded by an operand as a closing paren
19:32:21 <oklopol> assuming constant parsing direction for all o
19:32:21 <ais523> that works fine for everything but array indexing
19:33:25 <augur> furthermore, your version has implicit paren balancing
19:33:46 <ais523> augur: that's just because oklopol's putting extra parens at the edges of the expression to make it looked balanced
19:33:48 <augur> not that this is bad but im just saying.
19:34:03 <ais523> it's possible to make any expression look balanced like that
19:34:09 <augur> well, its still implicit tho
19:34:27 <augur> since you have to define what happens at the edges
19:34:48 <oklopol> i don't really see the big thing here, it was just a trivial parsing semantics idea
19:34:53 <ais523> see my explanation above
19:35:02 <ais523> well, it does define what happens at the edges, but coincidentally
19:35:21 <oklopol> so trivial i had a moment of doubt whether i shuold say it or just quickly implement it
19:35:43 <tusho> oklopol: implement it
19:35:44 <augur> i still dont like that its the same as normal parens tho.
19:35:47 <tusho> i'll use it for everything
19:35:47 <oklopol> btw. the reason i'm sounding even more trivializing than usual is i'm quite high on caffeine.
19:35:57 <augur> 1 o (2 o 3) o 4 => 1 o 2( o )3 o 4
19:36:03 <augur> i mean thats just too simpler :\
19:36:26 <augur> 1 o 2) o (3 o 4 is better.
19:36:41 <ais523> augur: that's just (1 o 2) o (3 o 4) in our system
19:36:45 <ais523> and the easiest way to say it
19:36:53 <augur> you said earlier that
19:36:55 <ais523> what you're doing is our system with ) and ( reversed
19:36:59 <augur> 1 o (2 o 3) o 4 in your system
19:37:09 <augur> is 1 o 2( o )3 o 4
19:37:18 <ais523> they're both correct ways to write it
19:37:32 <augur> but that makes no sense
19:37:47 <ais523> augur: yes it does, parens affect nothing but operators
19:37:57 <augur> ( decreases precedence of the left stuff, right?
19:38:06 <ais523> augur: yes, the operators to the left
19:38:09 <augur> and ) to the right?
19:38:12 <ais523> so it doesn't matter which side of the operand you put it
19:38:16 <augur> then your version is incorrect.
19:38:33 <augur> (1 o 2) o (3 o 4) has the middle o as a lower precedence than the other two
19:38:47 <ais523> so it handles ordinary parens correctly
19:39:21 <augur> yes, which is why i said that its too simple!
19:39:27 <augur> because it basically IS normal parens
19:39:32 <augur> with implicit balancing.
19:39:35 <ais523> augur: but your version is a trivially obfuscated version of ours
19:39:41 <ais523> with ( and ) the other way round
19:39:47 <augur> yes, but its visually a hell of a lot more confusing.
19:39:55 <ais523> oh, if that's all you wanted...
19:40:26 <augur> well, whats the point of making special magic )( if all they do is autobalance? :P
19:40:54 <augur> i mean, if o ( o )) o autobalances to (o ( o )) o then why bother making this at all?
19:41:05 <ais523> augur: because they can be either side of the operands, too
19:41:23 <augur> still trivial to understand when looking at it.
19:41:44 <augur> hardly more complicated than if they were on the right side of the operands.
19:42:16 <augur> haskell has a low-precedence-izer you know.
19:42:34 <ais523> augur: actually, $ is a low-precedence version of whitespace
19:42:45 <ais523> and that's ($) f a = f a because $ is infix
19:43:00 <augur> er.. i dont think it is...
19:43:02 <ais523> incidentally, is it legal to do `($)` to prefixise it and then infixise it again?
19:43:09 <ais523> augur: I know $ is infix, I've used it before
19:44:10 <oklopol> the )( thing is mostly visually interesting if it's requires to be explicitly balanced.
19:44:58 <augur> oh, you're right it is infix, sorry.
19:45:29 <augur> anyway, its interesting none the less.
19:45:47 <augur> i (h (g (f x))) == i $ h $ g $ f x
19:46:07 <ais523> that should be legal, I reckon
19:46:09 <augur> which is effectively your version of ( i guess.
19:46:43 <augur> because your versoin would be
19:47:03 <oklopol> in that situation, it's the exact same
19:47:29 <augur> indeed, but its pretty close.
19:47:45 <augur> its also a shittonne more confusing
19:47:46 <oklopol> it's a higher-precedence parenthesis construct without a closing paren
19:48:04 <augur> tho $ is like "of"
19:48:19 <augur> i of h of g of f x
19:48:33 <oklopol> the confusing part is requiring balancing of )(, wasn't that clear from the start
19:48:57 <augur> i still prefer the reversed )( to the normal ()
19:49:02 <oklopol> anyway, i wanna get back to making my pointless game, stop being interesting ->
19:49:53 <augur> ais, if you replaced () with <**> you'd have something equivalent to the operator precedence parser's internals.
19:52:19 <augur> and <**> would be terribly unfamiliar
19:52:49 <ais523> wow, you've got so pestery about this recently
19:53:05 <augur> anmaster: what are you hounding ais about?
19:53:06 <AnMaster> ais523, I blame my bad mood on the cold I have
19:53:28 <ais523> augur: it's OK, I don't mind AnMaster really, some people thing ffis between Funge and INTERCAL are really important
19:53:51 <ais523> and it is more likely to be useful than many other #esoteric projects
19:53:51 <AnMaster> well is there any part of it I can code? some more function you need?
19:53:58 <ais523> at least both Funge and INTERCAL are reasonably well known
19:54:11 <AnMaster> well I'd say INTERCAL is famous
19:54:15 <ais523> and no, this is pretty much all my stuff, I just have to make up my mind to do it, I'm suffering from holidayitis
19:54:25 <ais523> and Befunge is almost as famous as INTERCAL
19:54:39 <ais523> AnMaster: do you think we should just define FFI in the topic?
19:54:43 <augur> never played the game, to be honest
19:54:45 <ais523> augur must have been the fourth person or so to ask
19:54:55 <augur> tho i probably should
19:54:58 <augur> its a classic i hear
19:55:11 <augur> Fuel Freedom International?
19:55:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I would but I can't spel it ;P
19:55:15 <augur> Family Firm Institute?
19:55:18 <oklopol> foreign function interface
19:55:23 -!- ais523 has set topic: The foremost international hub for enterprise esoteric programming language design, development and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | an FFI is a Foreign Function Interface that allows programs in one language to use functions written in another, stop asking us to define it.
19:55:26 <augur> Fatal Familial Insomia!
19:55:44 <augur> im not listening to oklopol
19:56:08 <oklopol> backronyms are a fun way to pass time
19:56:12 <augur> oklopol, use your hands for more interesting things. like masturbating on a webcam.
19:57:37 <augur> oklopol, two issues regarding reactance:
19:57:45 <augur> x -> z, y -> z means what?
19:58:15 <augur> how do we detect change without propogating changed values
19:58:32 <oklopol> augur: depends, in my implementation it doesn't have any special meaning
19:58:38 <oklopol> but you said it should remove x->z
19:58:43 <augur> e.g. how to we get abs vals of derivatives of variables
19:58:54 <augur> i prefer removing x->z
19:59:06 <augur> because what if i dont want both to be active?
19:59:11 <augur> how then would i delete x->z?
19:59:28 <augur> i shouldnt need to know whats leading to z to begin with
19:59:55 <augur> so it'd need to be something like :deletefrom z
20:00:45 <augur> then again, if we wanted both x and y to feed z somehow, we'd need something like :both x y -> z
20:00:51 <AnMaster> <ais523> and no, this is pretty much all my stuff, I just have to make up my mind to do it, I'm suffering from holidayitis
20:00:55 <augur> if we have a change function, :change x
20:01:01 <AnMaster> I code much better when I don't really have time to
20:01:11 <augur> then the both function would be trivial
20:15:07 <tusho> the html5 examples have
20:15:09 <tusho> 'Wake up sheeple!'
20:18:11 <augur> who listened to the music i sent? :|
20:18:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:19:11 -!- ais523 has joined.
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21:00:34 <ais523> [21:00] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 14 seconds.
21:01:27 <ais523> AnMaster: I have network trouble
21:01:34 <ais523> I've managed quite a bit more than that before
21:01:46 <ais523> but normally it doesn't reconnect if the ping takes too long and I have to restart the client
21:01:48 <AnMaster> * Received a CTCP PING 1214546901505614 from AnMaster
21:01:48 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from AnMaster: 0.92 second(s)
21:02:33 <AnMaster> ais523, mine reconnects when ping goes over 2 or 3 minutes iirc
21:02:40 <ais523> ihope: there are spambots attacking your userpage on Esolang
21:02:55 <ais523> do you want me to protect it, or are you fine with me just deleting it every time a spambot creates it?
21:03:08 <ais523> ihope hasn't had a non-spambot-created user page, I think
21:03:15 <AnMaster> oh you are an esolang admin I see
21:11:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:11:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:19:24 -!- augur has changed nick to pygnisfive.
21:19:46 -!- pygnisfive has changed nick to psygnisfive.
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21:46:40 <tusho> psygnisfive: it's about nomic
21:47:22 <ais523> psygnisfive: a game where legal moves consist of changing the rules
21:48:05 <psygnisfive> i redefine the ruleset to be: Only I can change the rules.
21:48:17 <ais523> psygnisfive: there are limits on it, of course
21:48:30 <ais523> trying to find a way to loophole to do that is one recognised technique for winning
21:48:51 <ais523> psygnisfive: that sort of retroactivity shouldn't work, B Nomic are having a crisis because someone claimed it did
21:49:34 <tusho> ais523: this is how most people play nomic when they first hear about it
21:49:43 <tusho> 'I add a rule I win.'
21:49:57 <ais523> tusho: it would probably be outvoted, though
21:50:08 <ais523> most nomics require at least a majority vote to begin with
21:50:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:50:24 <psygnisfive> well if thats the case then youve misinformed me sir!
22:48:58 -!- Judofyr has quit.
22:49:51 * pikhq wonders: where's Gregor?
22:52:43 <pikhq> I met his former boss at Intel, oddly enough.
22:53:11 <pikhq> I mentioned my fondness for esolangs at USENIX. . .
22:53:39 <tusho> and they killed you for being a freak?
22:54:12 <pikhq> And this guy was like "Oh, yeah. . . There was this student a while back who did Brainfuck. . . Named Gregor. He wore a different hat every week; insanely good coder, but a tiny bit odd."
22:54:19 <pikhq> "Gregor? ... Gregor Richards?"
22:54:53 <psygnisfive> During the Russian revolution, the mathematical physicist Igor Tamm was seized by anti-communist vigilantes at a village near Odessa where he had gone to barter for food. They suspected he was an anti-Ukranian communist agitator and dragged him off to their leader.
22:54:54 <psygnisfive> Asked what he did for a living he said that he was a mathematician. The sceptical gang-leader began to finger the bullets and grenades slung around his neck. "All right", he said, "calculate the error when the Taylor series approximation of a function is truncated after n terms. Do this and you will go free; fail and you will be shot". Tamm slowly calculated the answer in the dust with his quivering finger. When he h
22:54:58 <ais523> as I was saying, it's a small world
22:54:59 <psygnisfive> ad finished the bandit cast his eye over the answer and waved him on his way."
22:55:39 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Which function?
22:55:42 <ihope> ais523: indeed, I think I have never created a userpage for myself on the Esolang wiki.
22:55:56 <ais523> ihope: no, you haven't, the spambots seem quite anxious to though
22:56:02 <ais523> the confusing thing is that they don't even add spam
22:56:03 <pikhq> And there can be more than one Taylor series for a function. ;)
22:56:11 <tusho> if I make ihope a userpage will I get banned?
22:56:19 <pikhq> No, I just paid attention in calculus.
22:56:22 <ais523> tusho: it rather depends on what you do
22:56:31 <ais523> and my assessment of how likely you are to be human
22:56:42 <tusho> Hmm. What esolangs has ihope made?
22:56:46 <tusho> Redivider ... and ...
22:56:52 -!- sekhmet has left (?).
22:58:18 <tusho> what's you guys favourite esowiki article
22:58:19 <tusho> mine is http://esolangs.org/wiki/FURscript
22:58:21 <tusho> because it's not a joke
22:58:48 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dimensifuck
22:58:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
22:58:51 <pikhq> Because it's mine.
22:58:54 <ais523> the BF constants one, just because people keep putting work into it every now and then
22:59:03 <ais523> it's heartening to see so many people work together
22:59:51 <tusho> pikhq: Slereah_ i think linked to a 4chan thread a while back where someone had linked to that page calling it the best language ever
23:00:07 <tusho> the rest of the thread was rather predictably people calling the language stupid
23:00:30 <tusho> dunno why I recalled that just now
23:01:00 <ais523> FURscript doesn't even make much sense
23:01:08 <ais523> also it's hard to read
23:01:26 <ais523> strangely, I don't find things like Unlambda and the various line-noise languages "hard to read" in that sense, just hard to fathom
23:01:39 <ais523> as in, looking at the code's fine, working out what it does is a lot harder
23:02:11 <tusho> psygnisfive: it was apparently totally serious
23:02:19 <tusho> the guy who created the article said the creator had put it on their wiki
23:02:27 <tusho> (presumably of a programmign community)
23:02:27 <ais523> it doesn't have any loop construct
23:02:31 <tusho> and he moved it over there because it's so bad
23:02:45 <ais523> nor any data storage AFAICT
23:02:45 <tusho> { * The person who designed this language was 100% serious about it and the vb6 compiler, but I think he got as far as a text box and a copyright notice before going back to programming his graphics calculator. --Einsidler 10:44, 24 Nov 2006 (UTC) }
23:03:01 <tusho> {# [DIRFORMAT="DIRECTORY","BYPASSSECURITY?"] FORMATS A DRIVE AND ASKS WHETHER TO BYPASS ALL RESTRICTIONS } is just so brilliant
23:03:17 <ais523> so why is the command called DIRFORMAT
23:03:27 <ais523> the command looks like it's trying to format a dir, not a drive
23:03:39 <ais523> also, why are the descriptions in allcaps?
23:03:40 <tusho> ais523: why are you using logic on this terrible abomination
23:04:05 <ais523> also, why does it have procedures when there's no way to call them?
23:04:07 <tusho> I just made ihope's user page
23:04:09 <tusho> but a spambot got it
23:04:12 <tusho> while I was editing
23:05:04 <ais523> it seems to be from single-use spambot IPs
23:05:07 <ais523> which only ever hit once
23:05:32 <ais523> now, only time will tell if I have to semi that or not
23:06:41 <ais523> tusho: as for FURscript, what would you say to its deletion?
23:06:47 <tusho> ais523: no, leave it there
23:06:49 <ais523> quite a few people on its talk page wanted it deleted, including me
23:06:56 <ais523> so probably you should comment onwiki about that
23:07:04 <tusho> if you tried to make a more shitty language, you couldn't manage
23:07:17 <ais523> actually, probably I couldn't
23:07:17 <tusho> ais523: pretty sure
23:07:20 <ais523> but lots of people could
23:07:33 <tusho> especially if they were sincere about it
23:07:56 * tusho is poking around zzo38's site, he's pretty crazy but it's a fun mishmash of stuff
23:08:11 <tusho> i'm rather surprised at the list of features on http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chrono/about.htm vs the shortness of http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chrono/_show_source
23:08:50 <ais523> is that multiple passwords thing a reference to your website where you could have two users with the same username but different passwords?
23:09:25 <tusho> somehow I doubt it
23:09:33 <tusho> i'm not exactly sure what it means
23:09:38 <ais523> the code doesn't look that short to me
23:10:05 <tusho> ais523: i was saying in comparison to the length of the features
23:10:18 <tusho> and i didn't really mean in lines
23:10:24 <tusho> I kinda meant in the 'the code is pretty trivial'
23:10:33 <tusho> though - http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chrono/zzo38/mainpage the actual UI has something to be desired..
23:11:05 <ais523> it looks about the right length for that feature set for well-written code
23:11:05 <ais523> it's just that well-written code is comparatively rare nowadays
23:11:05 <ais523> oh, and just try to work out the computational order of onoz
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23:11:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:11:57 <ais523> grr... my client still isn't responding to self-pings
23:12:01 <ais523> I wonder if anyone else in #esoteric can see this
23:12:07 <ais523> [23:11] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 22 seconds.
23:12:22 <ais523> presumably you lot will see this eventually, then
23:12:29 <ais523> but I probably won't get your replies for a while
23:12:46 <tusho> ais523: i saw that immediately
23:13:02 <ais523> tusho: how do you know?
23:13:09 <tusho> 'cause that's how fast you type
23:13:47 <tusho> ais523: aah, that multiple password thing -
23:13:53 <tusho> you can have passwords for different privileges
23:13:59 <tusho> e.g. a password for just posting and editing
23:14:04 <tusho> and another for system administration
23:14:11 <ais523> also Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my!
23:15:19 <tusho> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chrono/zzo38/1203755544 i like some of the entries on here
23:15:23 <tusho> 'Power to commit suicide'
23:15:28 <tusho> you need special powers to do that
23:16:13 <ais523> I like the "of course you also need powers to change back as well"
23:16:26 <ais523> thinking like a programmer who's met one too many evil genies
23:16:28 <tusho> couldn't you just transform into whatever you were before
23:16:49 <ais523> tusho: maybe not, if you transformed into something that didn't have the same powers as you
23:17:09 <tusho> transform into the thing you were before with the same powers
23:17:28 <ais523> I mean, if you transformed into something that couldn't transform
23:17:42 <tusho> just specify the transforming powers when you transform
23:18:26 <ais523> would you remember that every single time?
23:18:41 <ais523> or would you assume it was obvious after a bit and forget to specify it?
23:18:53 <tusho> you would specify the power to include not having to mention it.
23:19:00 <tusho> (when you transform the first time)
23:19:00 <ais523> yes, that would be useful
23:19:10 <tusho> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chrono/zzo38/1199580665 'Our Father who has warts in heaven' how on earth do you hear that
23:20:15 <tusho> "These are some comments about a book about philosophy I have. It is ISBN 1-55111-493-3" <-- why can't he just tell us the title?
23:22:41 <ais523> I think VALGOL's my favourite out of the lesser known languages
23:22:57 <ais523> it could easily be made a real lang, although it would probably suffer from LOLCODEitis
23:23:51 <tusho> LOLCODEitis is easy to avoi
23:24:00 <tusho> don't actively promote your language; because that's stupid, it
23:24:02 <tusho> 's a freaking esolang
23:24:13 <tusho> don't build a huge fancy site and expect a 'community', who do you think you are? This is an ESOLANG
23:24:15 <ais523> hey everyone, convert to Thutu now for all your programming needs!
23:24:29 <tusho> don't act like you're the first person to ever think of making a programming language look funny (WTFWTFWTF)
23:24:30 <ais523> besides, I think LOLCODE actually has a community]
23:24:35 <tusho> actually know how to design a language
23:24:41 <tusho> ais523: unfortunately, yes. it's one of idiots
23:24:51 <ais523> well, LOLCODE just seems to be a clone of generic imperativeness
23:25:00 <tusho> http://catseye.tc/projects/valgol/doc/valgol.html parser!
23:25:12 <tusho> yeah the lolcode people keep tripping over basic things
23:25:18 <tusho> or coming up with fucked solutions to easy problems
23:25:26 <tusho> they have Commities and Meetings
23:25:31 <tusho> and try to make it easy to use and practical and whatnot
23:25:37 <ais523> VALGOL? /Catseye/? I don't believe it
23:25:40 <tusho> you're making a language about kitty pidgin.
23:25:50 <tusho> catseye has everything
23:25:59 <ais523> tusho: I knew it had SARTRE
23:26:09 <ais523> but really, this just doesn't fit with my worldview at all
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23:26:24 <tusho> is this some kind of pun ais523
23:26:30 <ais523> if I did then my worldview would be able to fit it
23:26:32 <ais523> and no, it isn't a pun
23:26:43 <ais523> just me being unusual for no reason that's satisfactory to anyone, not even me
23:26:47 <tusho> http://catseye.tc/projects/eso.html
23:27:29 <psygnisfive> i wanna make a really queer new kind of esolang
23:28:22 <ais523> psygnisfive: try implementing Feather, I'm struggling
23:28:55 <ais523> it's an esolang I've designed
23:29:14 <ais523> and based on inheritance by retroactive effects
23:29:20 <ais523> and I don't really have specs yet
23:29:30 <ais523> it's the sort of thing that needs to be defined by a reference interp
23:29:36 <ais523> just to prove it's possible
23:29:47 <ais523> I have partial notes on a few feather-like objects
23:29:59 <ais523> oh, also they're wrong
23:30:05 <ais523> so it's not a very good thing to implement based on
23:30:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it's half-past-11
23:31:02 <ais523> really, would you expect me to be coding now?
23:31:18 <ais523> presumably you aren't tired
23:31:51 <psygnisfive> ais, surely you can provide some sort of spec
23:32:07 <ais523> but it's easier to explain over IRC, I think
23:32:15 <ais523> then show you what I have which is misleading
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23:32:41 <ais523> psygnisfive: I mean paste the specs
23:32:59 <AnMaster> ais523, could you explain it here over irc please!
23:33:06 <ais523> psygnisfive just told me not to
23:33:30 <ais523> let me finish pasting my incorrect and incomplete specs for a different lang first
23:34:05 <ais523> http://rafb.net/p/TG83VV29.html
23:34:11 <ais523> ok, first, ignore that because it's wrong
23:34:14 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what are you talking about?
23:34:14 <ais523> but it'll give you an idea
23:34:30 <ais523> basically, the idea is that you have an object-oriented language
23:34:39 <ais523> there are no classes, all objects are created from other objects by cloning
23:34:49 <ais523> also, nothing is modifiable, it uses single assignment
23:35:00 <ais523> so you create a changed copy rather than modifying the original
23:35:01 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, wtf are you talking about?
23:35:16 <ais523> now, in order to do interesting things like inheritance
23:35:25 <ais523> you can retroactively change what an object was at the time it was created
23:35:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well what one? I mainly watched TNG
23:35:42 <ais523> psygnisfive: well, Self doesn't have retroactivity, but it's similar
23:35:55 <ais523> it's also vaguely message-passing
23:35:58 <ais523> and you can modify anything
23:35:59 <psygnisfive> where chekhov makes some robut women explode by telling them he loves on but not the other
23:35:59 * tusho writes something like chronojournal because e feels like it
23:36:07 <psygnisfive> they're all identical so this causes a logic error, naturally
23:36:12 <ais523> you can even change the syntax of the language by modifying eval
23:36:23 <ais523> well, retroactively modifying it
23:36:39 <psygnisfive> ais: i dont see what retroactive modification means.
23:36:55 <psygnisfive> tusho has become asexual, hence his use of the gender-neutral pronoun "e"
23:37:04 <tusho> psygnisfive: it's all this agora playing
23:37:06 <ais523> psygnisfive: ok, say you make an object b that's a clone of an object a, and an object c that's a modified clone of a, and an object d that's a modified clone of c
23:37:20 <ais523> now, suppose you retroactively modify a so it was really d all along
23:37:40 <ais523> then you find out that b was d all along, and c was modified from d, and d depends on the old version of d
23:37:46 <ais523> and the program is recalcualted to allow for that
23:37:52 <ais523> i.e. rerun from that point with the changes
23:38:08 <ais523> except that that should be optimisable in many cases
23:38:09 <AnMaster> err, this is backtracking isn't it?
23:38:27 <ais523> but in backtracking you specify the possible choices at the choicepoint
23:38:46 <ais523> whereas in Feather you can take information from one possible path and use it to modify the next path that's tried
23:38:58 <AnMaster> ais523, do you mean recursive inheritance?
23:39:08 <ais523> AnMaster: not exactly, that doesn't involve rerunning the program
23:39:09 <psygnisfive> its an interesting idea, but not interesting enough.
23:39:16 <ais523> recursive inheritance is entirely possible, though
23:39:34 <ais523> psygnisfive: well, you write a language where you can change the syntax at runtime and have it effect everything the program's ever done
23:39:48 <psygnisfive> i dont know why i'd even want to do that, ais.
23:39:56 <ais523> for instance, you can modify objects representing functions to keep track of their source code and how many times they've been run
23:40:06 <tusho> psygnisfive: this is as interesting as reactance if not more so
23:40:08 <ais523> so basically you can make the language as reflective as you like
23:40:11 <tusho> a load of people in here are interested by it too
23:40:34 <ais523> yep, I'm probably in the world's top 10 intercallers by now
23:40:56 <ais523> probably the top when it comes to C-INTERCAL's newer features, but I could probably still be beaten on some of the more established ones
23:41:26 <ais523> also, feather's interesting due to consistent time travel rules
23:41:39 <ais523> there are a lot of possible consistent time travel rules, but strangely fiction normally doesn't use them
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23:43:22 <ais523> psygnisfive: just the retroactivity, basically all the possible timelines are ordered, an earlier timeline can affect a later timeline but not vice versa, and all retroactive changes have to be legal in the timeline they were made but not necessarily in the resulting timeline
23:43:36 <ais523> there, that description should be in every nomic in existence, I reckon, to avoid stupid retroactivity things
23:44:27 <ais523> well no, it took me a week or so to understand and I invented it
23:44:31 <ais523> this is why it needs a reference interp
23:44:35 <tusho> http://qntm.org/?models
23:44:35 <ais523> to prove that it's possible and works
23:44:37 <tusho> time travel models
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23:45:07 <olsner> ooh, intercal with actual time travel?
23:45:21 <ais523> I haven't tried to attach time travel to INTERCAL yer
23:45:29 <ais523> now you've mentioned it I'll have to think about it, though
23:46:02 <ais523> psygnisfive: you can go back in time and prevent yourself ever having got a time travel machine, this does not lead to a contradiction
23:46:49 <psygnisfive> lots of shows use this model of time travel.
23:46:51 <ais523> except that you can send objects from one universe into another
23:47:27 <ais523> but only one object, only in one direction, it always replaces an object in the next universe, and it's the only way to do time travel
23:47:46 <ais523> "Star Trek has run long enough to include examples of all kinds of other models of time travel, as well as plenty of crazy rubbish which makes no sense. The model given here is approximately correct, but there are technicalities."
23:48:15 <tusho> psygnisfive: http://qntm.org/?models
23:48:22 <tusho> most of them don't actually.
23:48:47 <tusho> even though it makes no sense
23:48:48 <psygnisfive> its brilliant for writing greek tragedy stuff
23:49:09 <ais523> oh, and the major problem with Feather programming is avoiding timeloops
23:49:36 <ais523> anyway, I'd better go home now
23:49:52 -!- ais523 has quit ("PLEASE DO NOTHING").
23:50:56 <olsner> hmm, so that's a description of *dramatic* models of time travel with no consideration on how to integrate a model of time travel into a model of the universe
23:51:10 <tusho> the title of the page is
23:51:12 <tusho> Modelling time travel in fiction
23:51:26 <tusho> (Favourite quote: {This violates the law of conservation of mass-energy, but that's a small price to pay for working time travel.})
23:52:06 <psygnisfive> quantum mechanics violates mass-energy conservation for very small values of mass-energy and time.
23:53:24 <oerjan> very small products of mass-energy and time, iirc
23:56:34 <Ilari> The larger the violation, the less time it may last. There is similar noncommutative relationship between time and energy as there is between position and momentum...
23:57:31 <olsner> " it seems that time travel involves the sending back and forth through time of quantum packets of information, which alter history multiple times in a kind of feedback loop until the universe settles into a stable structure in which the instance of time travel is completely internally consistent."
23:59:58 <olsner> I like that model ... it reminds me of fixpoints and the path-integrals they speak of in quantum mechanics
00:03:10 <psygnisfive> itd be interesting to try and develop something like relativity but that affects histories instead of simultaneity
00:05:01 <oerjan> the Everett interpretation is a little bit like that i think
00:05:18 <Ilari> Doesn't TOE (assuming it is eventually discovered) provode answers to things like wheither FTL travel is possible and wheither time travel is possible?
00:05:27 <oerjan> many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics
00:06:08 <psygnisfive> i dont think multiple-worlds QM is the time-equivalent of Relativity's affects on simultaneity
00:06:22 <tusho> {Based on theoretical holographic principle arguments from the 1990s, many physicists believe that 11-dimensional M-theory, which is described in many sectors by matrix string theory, in many other sectors by perturbative string theory is the complete theory of everything. Other physicists disagree.}
00:06:41 <tusho> that was so obviously put there by a string theorist
00:06:44 <tusho> you'd think they'd try harder
00:07:26 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder if it is possible to combine that E8 theory with Z2 grading (supersymmetry)...
00:07:43 <oerjan> "many physicists" seems to be begging for the weasel word template...
00:07:50 <tusho> oerjan: you betcha
00:07:56 <tusho> also, that exceptionally simple theory of everything
00:07:58 <tusho> is apparently bulshit
00:08:08 <tusho> read about it somewhere, apparently it's mainly just a load of buzzwords
00:09:53 <Ilari> The main techincal problem seems to be that it can't represent fermions. On the other hand, supersymmetry operator converts between fermions and bosons....
00:11:02 <Ilari> It also has the weirdness that pretty much all previous theories combined strong force first and then gravity. Apparently that E8 thing first combines gravity and then strong force.
00:12:25 <Ilari> (That's why GUT is theory of strong force, weak force and electromagnetism)....
00:14:01 <oerjan> the old kaluza-klein theory unifies gravity and electromagnetism, but then it's not a quantum theory
00:14:01 <Ilari> In classical model naming, TOE combines GUT with gravity (and is the final theory).
00:14:30 <Ilari> OTOH, there are theories that involve forces beyound the four currently known...
00:15:00 <oerjan> hm wait this web page claims klein
00:15:12 <oerjan> 's part _was_ quantum: http://www.matter-antimatter.com/kaluza-klein_theory.htm
00:16:56 <Ilari> Yeah. Figuring way to merge GR and QM is not trivial. Many attemps have been made, each running into nonsensical stuff (infinities).
00:17:25 <tusho> what's wrong with infinities?
00:17:43 <psygnisfive> theres no such thing as an infinite probability :(
00:18:34 <oerjan> (apparently that web page is affiliated with some people attempting to fix this and probably give their own TOE?)
00:18:35 <Ilari> And even if one doesn't run into infinities, one gets stuff like 10^120 times too large value for some constant (vacuum negative energy density).
00:18:48 <Slereah_> Well, infinities are no good in a universe which doesn't explode and all.
00:19:28 <psygnisfive> maybe the infinite probabilities means it happens in _all_ alternate universes. o.o
00:19:45 <Slereah_> Probabilities are [0;1], psygnisfive.
00:19:54 <Slereah_> Outside, they're non-sensical.
00:20:18 <psygnisfive> simply divide probability/#universes and you get the probability in your universe
00:20:31 <tusho> what, /infinity? :P
00:20:33 <Slereah_> Yes, but the two probabilities are disjoint.
00:20:41 <Slereah_> Or, if they're not, they're not two
00:21:27 <tusho> psygnisfive: i think my summary is, don't write a TOE :P
00:21:44 <Slereah_> Let physicists do their jobs, dude.
00:21:48 <Ilari> infinity/infinity is not well-defined.
00:21:56 <Slereah_> And they will not talk of linguistic :o
00:22:15 <psygnisfive> i used to be a physics major, you know. then my school screwed me over and i had to switch majors
00:24:04 <tusho> 'Toe' - english translation is the correct theory of everything
00:24:09 <tusho> now all we have to do is publish a paper in that language consisting of 'Toe'
00:24:14 <tusho> and we'll be heroes
00:24:24 <Ilari> infinity/infinity can be made to be anything between 0 and infinity by suitable choice of infinities...
00:24:49 <Slereah_> Like for instance, the KJV translation? :o
00:25:35 <Slereah_> "'Toe' - english translation is the correct theory of everything"
00:26:39 <Slereah_> I recently had the idea of a general relativity based particle automaton*
00:26:50 <Slereah_> But then, I realized it would be horrible to write
00:32:32 <Ilari> Hmm... Is there esolangs (besides that unary coding of NULL) that can be proven to be turing-complete, but have all nontrivial programs so large that they can't be written in practice?
00:33:15 <tusho> That primes language.
00:33:18 <tusho> Programs are primes.
00:33:21 <Slereah_> Well, any esolang which requires an infinite input, for a start
00:33:30 <tusho> To write a program, you have to write a program, then encode it into a prime by bruteforcing primes.
00:33:33 <tusho> Slereah_: Not sure.
00:33:35 <tusho> It's on the esowiki.
00:33:45 <tusho> Malbolge is close, too.
00:34:13 <Slereah_> Here's an hello world encoding :D
00:35:44 <oerjan> the rule 110 automaton of Wolfram's gives some huge programs too, i think
00:36:40 <oerjan> (although someone did improve the unary encoding of a TM to a polynomial one)
00:38:04 <tusho> what about ais523's wolfram thing
00:43:12 <oerjan> now we'll have to invent that.
00:45:07 <oerjan> the smallest indecent cardinal
00:45:42 <Ilari> One funky thing is what is aleph_1? Question if aleph_1 equals beth_1 (size of reals) is undecidable from basic (accepted) set-theoretic assumptions...
00:46:24 <tusho> oerjan: we need to define cardinal sins, then
00:46:25 <Slereah_> Aleph 1 is the smallest cardinal higher than aleph 0.
00:46:42 <Slereah_> Cardinal sins already exists, tusho
00:46:43 <tusho> so ... the sine function with cardinals
00:47:10 <tusho> Hey, you're right.
00:47:30 <oerjan> aleph 1 is the cardinal of the first uncountable ordinal, which is again fairly concretely the _set_ of countable well-ordering classes
00:47:34 <tusho> We need to use cardinal sins to define aleph_NAUGHT{Y}
00:47:54 <oerjan> something involving altar boys, presumably.
00:50:47 <psygnisfive> something completely bafflingly different yet brilliantly sensible
00:50:49 * oerjan notes that google gives a hit for aleph-naughty. "Infinite to the power of infinite wishes"
00:50:54 <tusho> psygnisfive: no we need to define aleph_NAUGHT{Y} using the cardinal sin function with altar boys
00:52:05 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%22The_most_important_thing_in_the_programming_language_is_the_name._A_language_will_not_succeed_without_a_good_name._I_have_recently_invented_a_very_good_name_and_now_I_am_looking_for_a_suitable_language.%22
00:52:16 <oerjan> i think this conversation may be illegal in some US states.
00:52:35 <psygnisfive> i think this conversation may be illegal in some USA's.*
00:52:56 <psygnisfive> i still want to make my language that uses natural-language-like syntactic structures.
00:53:13 <oerjan> psygnisfive: have you looked at Perligata?
00:53:19 <Ilari> So crazy that it lacks anything even seeming like instruction pointer? :-)
00:53:44 <psygnisfive> challenge: DESIGN AN ALIEN PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE.
00:54:33 <oerjan> psygnisfive: also, maybe ORK
00:55:26 <oerjan> perligata is latin-based though, more about inflections than syntax
00:55:54 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:55:58 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ORK
00:56:29 <psygnisfive> see, i dont want programming IN natural language, or anything that looks like natural language necessarily
00:56:31 <oerjan> that's the one enforced english syntax language that comes to mind
00:56:38 <psygnisfive> i just want to use concepts from natural language syntax.
00:57:50 <oerjan> to loop, loops, looped, has looped
00:58:29 <AnMaster> A(A(g_64, g_64), A(g_64, g_64)) == ?
00:58:52 <oerjan> ERROR OUT OF SPACETIME
00:59:17 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, Slereah_: oerjan is actually correct
00:59:47 <AnMaster> read up on Graham's number and Ackermann's function
01:00:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, out of space time by how much?
01:00:21 <oerjan> ERROR OUT OF SPACETIME
01:00:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, how many iterations of that question until you are not out of spacetime?
01:00:54 <Slereah_> Technically, using Planck units to define units of space time, the entire universe is way under 10^150 units of spacetime
01:00:55 <oerjan> still ERROR OUT OF SPACETIME, possibly
01:01:43 <olsner> so, how long until we have 10^150 bits on a hard drive?
01:02:00 <Slereah_> As soon as you can fit the universe into it
01:02:34 <oerjan> i believe the holographic hypothesis limits memory to the surface area of the hard drive
01:02:58 <Slereah_> The actual Ackermann function is more complicated
01:03:14 <Slereah_> But the two variable version is common
01:04:27 <tusho> <oerjan> i think this conversation may be illegal in some US states.
01:05:23 <psygnisfive> is it illegal to joke about raping someone who's significantly underage in a context where its obviously a joke?
01:05:55 <oerjan> everyone knows the US law system has no sense of humor
01:05:58 <psygnisfive> more importantly, in the presence of, and being said to, the person fictionally being raped?
01:06:19 <tusho> psygnisfive: i think it would be more clear-cut if I wasn't 12 :-P
01:06:25 <tusho> does freenode do coppa?
01:06:28 <tusho> if so then I shouldn't be here in the first place
01:06:40 <tusho> although that law allows it if you fax in a permission form
01:06:46 <tusho> signed by your parents...
01:07:01 <tusho> AnMaster: paranoid shit
01:07:03 <psygnisfive> i can fax your parents a permission slip and if you and your parents sign it i can rape you?
01:07:07 <ihope> Children's Online Privacy Protection Act.
01:07:13 <oerjan> 00:32 - By registering your nickname with Nickserv you agree that you
01:07:13 <oerjan> 00:32 - are 13 years of age, or older. For more information about the
01:07:13 <oerjan> 00:32 - Children's Online Privacy Protection Act please see their
01:07:13 <oerjan> 00:32 - website at (http://www.coppa.org).
01:07:24 <tusho> ok, well, I'm actually 37
01:07:27 <tusho> I'm just lying that I'm 123
01:07:31 <tusho> that's my official opinion
01:07:35 <tusho> back to the topic of raping me
01:07:43 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:07:44 <ihope> If you're under 13, no Internet for you! Except that's a big exaggeration. You're just not allowed to provide certain information.
01:07:50 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: Let's all rape Tusho! :D.
01:08:02 <tusho> ihope: COPPA is universally ignored except by a few annoying people/
01:08:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, where are the logs
01:08:06 * tusho feels raped by ihope
01:08:08 <oerjan> psygnisfive: hey hey, no leaving out the channel logs
01:08:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, WHERE ARE THE CHANNEL LOGS!?
01:08:27 -!- tusho has set topic: HTTP COLON SLASH SLASH TUNES DOT ORG SLASH TILDE NEF SLASH LOGS SLASH ESOTERIC.
01:08:44 <tusho> you have to type to get them
01:08:56 <tusho> i'm not just going to GIVE AWAY the log url
01:09:06 <psygnisfive> colon slash slash is what happens when you have sex without lube
01:09:19 <psygnisfive> colon slash slash tunes is music you listen to while having sex without lube.
01:09:58 <tusho> http colon slash slash tunes is music about the web you listen to while having sex without lube
01:10:04 -!- cherez has joined.
01:10:14 <tusho> who will continue?!
01:10:43 <psygnisfive> STEP UP AND CLAIM YOUR PRIZE AS NUMBER ONE STUPID INTERPRETATION OF THE TOPIC INVENTOR PERSON
01:10:55 <psygnisfive> FIRST TO COMPLETE THE WHOLE TOPIC GETS TO RAPE TUSHO
01:10:57 <tusho> just add the next two words
01:11:45 <tusho> http colon slash slash tunes dot is the hole you get in your brain when you listen to music about the web you listen to while having sex without lube
01:11:46 <psygnisfive> i mean, look at how hes dressed, all slutty like that like
01:11:54 -!- ihope has set topic: PUBLIC LOGS: HTTP COLON SLASH SLASH TUNES DOT ORG SLASH TILDE NEF SLASH LOGS SLASH ESOTERIC.
01:12:10 <psygnisfive> tusho, you are not one step closer to raping yourself.
01:12:14 <ihope> Was I supposed to accidentally type "PUBIC LOGS"?
01:12:22 <tusho> psygnisfive: you add 'dot' then
01:12:39 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: PUBIC LOGS: HTTP COLON SLASH SLASH TUNES DOT ORG SLASH TILDE NEF SLASH LOGS SLASH ESOTERIC.
01:13:35 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: PUBLIC LOGS: HEICH TEE TEE PEE COLON SLASH SLASH TEE YOU EN EE ES DOT OH AR GEE SLASH TILDE EN EE EF SLASH EL OH GEE ES SLASH EE ES OH TEE EE AR AI CEE.
01:14:32 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: PEE YOU BEE EL AI CEE EL OH GEE ES: HEICH TEE TEE PEE COLON SLASH SLASH TEE YOU EN EE ES DOT OH AR GEE SLASH TILDE EN EE EF SLASH EL OH GEE ES SLASH EE ES OH TEE EE AR AI CEE.
01:15:00 <tusho> PEE YOU BEE EYE CEE EL OH GEE ESS COLON HEICH EE EYE CEE HEIGH TEE EE EE TEE EE EE PEE EE EE CEE OH EL OH EN ESS EL AYE ESS HEICH ...
01:15:10 <tusho> psygnisfive beat me
01:15:22 <tusho> I was spelling out the spelling out after the colon too
01:15:42 <ihope> What are heich and heigh?
01:16:02 <oerjan> i would like to make a public statement about the topic: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYEEEEEH!!!!!!!
01:16:25 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: AAAAAAAAAAAYEEEEHHH!!!!!!!!!.
01:16:31 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: PEE YOU BEE EL AI CEE EL OH GEE ES: HEICH TEE TEE PEE COLON SLASH SLASH TEE YOU EN EE ES DOT OH AR GEE SLASH TILDE EN EE EF SLASH EL OH GEE ES SLASH EE ES OH TEE EE AR AI CEE.
01:16:36 <ihope> PUBICLOGS:*EIC*TEETEEPEECOLONSLIS*... yeah.
01:16:37 -!- tusho has set topic: Welcome to Qrrbrbirlbel.
01:17:34 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: double you ee el cee oh em ee tee oh queue arrrrrrrrr! bee arr bee eye arr el bee ee el.
01:17:41 -!- tusho has set topic: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
01:17:54 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: EFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
01:18:29 <tusho> you need EFF * number of Fs
01:18:46 -!- tusho has set topic: EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF.
01:19:04 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: ee eff eff ee eff eff ee eff eff.
01:19:10 -!- tusho has set topic: EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF.
01:19:15 <tusho> let's stop iterating this
01:19:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: Warning: Topical cyclone. Please seek cover..
01:19:35 <ihope> 0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110
01:19:39 <ihope> Or something like that, anyway.
01:20:08 -!- tusho has set topic: Http:// TUNES.ORG cyclone. Please /~nef/ cover. Logs/esoteric.
01:21:52 <tusho> ay eye tee cee aitch ee ee ee el ee el oh aitch
01:22:32 <ihope> ee el el o. ee ee space ee el space ee el o. ee ee space ee ee space es pee ay cee ee space . . .
01:22:43 * oerjan predicts convergence of this substitution sequence
01:23:08 <tusho> omit the spaces :(
01:23:09 <ihope> I think by convergence, you mean turning into ais523's Turing tape thingy.
01:23:10 <tusho> just spell out the letters
01:23:18 <tusho> i'll redo if you want
01:23:28 <oerjan> no i mean convergence to an infinitely long fixpoint sequence
01:23:32 <ihope> ee el el o. ee ee ee el ee el o. ee ee ee ee ee ee ee el ee ee ee el o.
01:23:53 <psygnisfive> ay bee cee dee ee eff(!) gee aitch(!) eye(!) jay kay el(!) em(!) en(!) oh pee queue you(!) arr(!) es(!) tee you(!) vee double you(!) eks(!) why(!) zee
01:23:56 <tusho> ay why ee why ee tee ee ee cee ee ee ay eye tee cee aitch ee ee ee ee ee ee ee el ee ee ee el oh aitch ay eye tee cee aitch
01:23:59 <tusho> (ihope's was wrong. I fixed it.)
01:24:01 <ihope> In this case, I guess that would be ee ee ee ee ee ee ee...
01:24:10 <ihope> If you're using Haskell or something.
01:24:10 <tusho> psygnisfive: continue from mine
01:24:27 <oerjan> hm right ee is trivial
01:24:44 <oerjan> and all of course eventually get periodic
01:24:49 <tusho> someone continue from mine :(
01:25:03 <psygnisfive> eff, aitch, eye, el, em, en, arr, es, and eks are all non-self starting
01:25:15 <psygnisfive> but they each start with self starting ones
01:26:21 <psygnisfive> well, not fixed points, but they eventually devolve into containing the same stuff over and over
01:26:33 <oerjan> the limit is a fixpoint
01:26:51 <tusho> ay why double-you aitch why ee ee double-you aitch why ee ee tee ee ee ee ee ee ee cee ee ee ee ee ee ee ay why ee why ee tee ee ee cee ee ee ay eye tee cee aitch ee ee ee ee ee ee ee ee ee ee
01:27:26 <tusho> i'ma write a JS thing that lets you type in something
01:27:30 <tusho> and it morphs into the new versions
01:27:47 <psygnisfive> tusho it takes two seconds, dont be such a pussy.
01:27:54 <tusho> dude it's 1:30am and I'm going
01:28:34 <ihope> morph =... your two-second time limit has expired. Please insert coin to proceed.
01:29:24 <oerjan> i'd say ihope's hebrew is really going downhill there
01:30:03 <ihope> The only other Hebrew things I remember are "ma is what?" and "you want I should".
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03:12:57 <Slereah_> http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Rob/superjerk-is-a-jerk.png
03:19:17 <Slereah_> Captain N is just a dreadful show.
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03:55:18 <psygnisfive> im doing visualizations of alphabet look and speak?
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04:08:45 <psygnisfive> anyone know of a good technique for turning exponential growth into polynomial growth? :\
04:12:07 <ihope> Take the logarithm?
04:12:46 <oerjan> pad the input with zeros
04:16:53 <oerjan> switching input from binary to unary would also work
04:23:38 <ihope> Hmm. I was reading about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller, a Supreme Court case restricting gun laws.
04:24:13 <ihope> There's a section titled "Henderson's dissent"; at first, I thought it said "Handguns for dissent".
04:24:29 <ihope> "I don't like how the government's running things." *BLAM*
04:25:54 * oerjan thought that was the amendment's _intended_ use ;)
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05:50:18 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/alphabeticalseesay.xhtml
06:00:21 <psygnisfive> a -> ay -> ay why -> ay why double you aitch why -> ...
06:00:49 <psygnisfive> each letter from a-z is replaced by a colored bar
06:00:58 <psygnisfive> graphed twice, once left aligned, once right aligned
06:01:21 <psygnisfive> its completely trivial in its left expansion
06:01:41 <psygnisfive> its always the same from row to row, plus some.
06:01:51 <psygnisfive> while the right expansion is almost always the same from row to row
06:01:59 <psygnisfive> with the same parts growing on the right each time
06:02:14 <psygnisfive> some are self similar in that say, but not from the left edge
06:02:34 <Slereah_> I apparently have pictures of myself where I'm naked, and a minor
06:03:03 <psygnisfive> also, it is technically illegal in the US, yes.
06:22:39 <Slereah_> I'm also watching the "Colour of Magick" movie
06:22:50 <Slereah_> It's not a book that lends itself well for movies, though
06:28:46 <Slereah_> Also, Two Flower does not look very asian
06:35:03 <Slereah_> And now he's speaking English D:
06:35:16 <Slereah_> I guess having him speak in goobledigook the whole movie would be annoying
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07:29:27 <psygnisfive> the alphabetical look-tell is a fractal :o
07:34:14 <psygnisfive> its hard to see with only the 6 iterations there
07:34:58 <psygnisfive> but with "a", from 2/9 to 4/9 is the same as from 7/9 to 9/9
07:35:33 <psygnisfive> and in the middle there are some similarities too, too, which expand outward
07:35:47 <psygnisfive> or consider y, which is part of the cause of the fractalness
07:36:30 <Slereah_> Well, I suppose that it's because most letters contains themselves in their pronounciations.
07:37:06 <psygnisfive> because no letter contains itself more then once, except e
07:37:54 <Slereah_> So is fractality for any string?
07:38:39 <psygnisfive> anything like bee or el will not be fractal
07:39:25 <psygnisfive> so a h i j k o q r u w x y are all fractal
07:41:12 <psygnisfive> the names for letters contain themselves or other letters that contain the letter, or are fractal.
07:41:21 <psygnisfive> the whole thing just explodes out into self similarity
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07:50:39 <psygnisfive> unless the language prints by default, and it prints strings as surrounded by quotes
07:50:50 <psygnisfive> in which case all strings are quines in that language
07:51:14 <Slereah_> Because I have no epsilons on my keyboard.
07:51:59 <Slereah_> epsilon represents the empty string
07:52:00 <psygnisfive> because you'd need to print the string containing the symbol e
07:52:13 <Slereah_> As you might know, IRC doesn't accept empty input.
07:52:40 <psygnisfive> i went through a whole semester of formal semantics
07:52:59 <psygnisfive> the first month was nothing but object language vs metalanguage
07:53:11 <Slereah_> Well, it's metalanguage, you cock
07:53:48 <psygnisfive> a grammar that has a symbol for the empty string can itself be specified with another grammar, but that other grammar treats the symbol for the empty string as just any other terminal symbol
07:54:44 <Slereah_> Except metalanguage, you turdburglar.
07:55:40 <psygnisfive> like i said, it IS possible that you could do that
07:55:51 <Slereah_> The fact that I was not suggesting putting two quotes in the program but nothing.
07:56:04 <psygnisfive> "" would indeed be valid IF the language by default printed bare strings surrounded by quotes.
07:56:56 <psygnisfive> but that suffers from the same problem as ""
07:57:22 <psygnisfive> but in this case, it just prints nothingness
07:57:49 <psygnisfive> and all programs print nothingness, since any instance of nothingness is printed
07:57:56 <psygnisfive> which means you print an infinite number of times
07:58:09 <psygnisfive> which means that technically its not a quine
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08:00:37 <Slereah_> So it might be an infinity of nothing.
08:00:55 <Slereah_> So it's a quine, and a repeating quine :o
08:01:11 <psygnisfive> but if it prints each empty string once then it prints an infinite number of empty strings
08:01:27 <psygnisfive> which i guess is technically what the source is
08:01:54 <Slereah_> Are you going to askv what's the sound of one hand clapping now?
08:02:22 <psygnisfive> no, because clapping is defined as involving two hands and thus the question is based on false premises and has no answer.
08:02:38 <psygnisfive> anyone who knows anything about zen understands that thats the point of those koans.
08:03:20 <Slereah_> Then why are you asking stupid things about the empty string.
08:03:22 <psygnisfive> they're meant to reveal the pointlessness of asking such questions because wanting answers is yet another attachment
08:03:37 <psygnisfive> im asking these questions because we're not in a zen monastery! >O
08:05:16 <psygnisfive> IT IS NEITHER THE WIND NOR THE FLAG THAT IS MOVING.
08:05:42 <Slereah_> But the universe around it? D:
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09:04:26 <oklopol> it's the eyes that are moving
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09:43:14 <oklopol> psygnisfive: no, for some reason nnscript decided to start cutting off my backlog at random.
09:43:31 <oklopol> is the extent of what i see
09:44:50 <oklopol> this is such a windows client, pretty nice to use, and pretty, but you never know when some random option suddenly enables, and everything changes for the worse.
09:44:51 <psygnisfive> it produces multiple iterations of the "replace each letter with its name"
09:45:03 <oklopol> http://wellnowwhat.net/alphabeticalseesay.xhtml
09:45:47 <psygnisfive> a => ay => ay why => ay why double you aitch why
09:46:36 <psygnisfive> but instead of displaying each iteration like that
09:47:02 <psygnisfive> i chose to display each iteration by stripping white space and displaying each character as a colored vertical bar
09:47:17 <oklopol> i've never seen those phonetically written forms of english letters
09:47:35 <oklopol> not phonetically... dunno what the word is
09:47:47 <oklopol> well kinda phonetically, anyway, the names for the chars
09:47:47 <psygnisfive> named letters for english are rare and sketchy
09:48:03 <oklopol> yeah, that is probably why i haven't found them.
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09:48:46 <psygnisfive> the colors correspond to one of the 26 letters
09:49:20 <oklopol> well sure, sure, but others expand more interestingly
09:49:42 <psygnisfive> there are two versions of the iterations, as you can see
09:50:10 <oklopol> i wouldn't call that a fractal
09:50:35 <psygnisfive> notice how with the left edges aligned its clear that the nth+1 iteration is just the nth iteration, followed by a bunch of stuff
09:51:00 <psygnisfive> now notice that when you align the right edges, the nth+1 iteration is a bunch of stuff followed by most of the right half of the nth iteration
09:51:15 <psygnisfive> so the right edge is ALMOST the same behavior as the left edge
09:51:38 <psygnisfive> specifically, the right 2/9 of the nth+1 is the right 2/3 of the nth
09:52:19 <psygnisfive> for "a" the ratio is about 3 to 1 between the nth+1 and nth iteration in length
09:52:22 <oklopol> umm, you concatenate that part there, or it just happens to be there?
09:53:07 <psygnisfive> ay why double you aitch why dee oh you bee el ee why oh you ay eye tee cee aitch double you aitch why
09:53:39 <psygnisfive> "double you aitch why" is in the beginning
09:54:05 <oklopol> yeah so you can nest the middle?
09:54:38 <psygnisfive> plus ANOTHER "double you aitch why" at the end
09:55:00 <psygnisfive> plus the "y" from expanding the "a" you get from expanding "aitch"
09:55:31 <psygnisfive> a -> ay, y -> why, w -> double you, h -> aitch
09:56:22 <psygnisfive> if you expand "a" far enough you actually find that it contains a whole copy of itself
09:56:32 <psygnisfive> indeed, its not hard to see why even from the first step
09:56:32 <oklopol> yeah, nice, but i still wouldn't call it a fractal unless you let me explore the infinite sequence :P
09:56:50 <oklopol> hmm, a whole copy of itself?
09:57:08 <psygnisfive> if we expand "a" to some arbitrary depth N
09:57:20 <psygnisfive> we're going to have atleast 1 "a" in that expansion
09:57:38 <psygnisfive> if we expand another N times, that "a" expands to the first sequence
09:57:43 <oklopol> just didn't know what you meant
09:57:51 <psygnisfive> but theres actually more than one "a" after enough expansions
09:58:07 <psygnisfive> so you can zoom in on the thing and hey presto, theres another copy of the thing.
09:59:10 <psygnisfive> but what i find really interesting is that for "a" and other similar expansions
09:59:31 <oklopol> if for all mappings x -> y in a look-and-say sequence, y contains x, you can make it a fractal by dividing each character into three pieces, one for the character x in the expanded y, and two for the parts on its left and right side
09:59:43 <psygnisfive> while the other edge produces n+1 == some stuff then most of n
10:00:08 <psygnisfive> the whole of n creates a whole subpart of n+1 on one side
10:01:05 <psygnisfive> not because it actually does that ofcourse, it just expands each letter
10:01:11 <psygnisfive> and the initial condition set up the recursion
10:01:26 <psygnisfive> you can see it plainly in "a" from step two
10:01:48 <psygnisfive> we get two "y"s from one, and we'll continue to product this over and over
10:02:39 <oklopol> tell me when the fractal can be viewed
10:03:07 <psygnisfive> its already partially viewable by the fact that parts of the nth iteration are the same as other parts
10:03:39 <psygnisfive> and the fact that the n+1th iteration is the whole nth iteration copied nearly twice and put together with a bit more means that each iteration increases the self similarity
10:04:05 <psygnisfive> tho because its one dimensional and complicated, its kind of hard to see the full fractal nature
10:06:15 <AnMaster> This is a test of whenever tusho reads logs.
10:10:38 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it has a fractal nature, i just think you're not viewing it fractally enough
10:11:33 <oklopol> i mean, the sequence 1, 11, 1111, 11111111, 1111111111111111 has a fractal nature, but i wouldn't call it a fractal written like that
11:24:51 <Slereah_> I wonder where the w<hole "Science!" thing came out
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15:56:27 <tusho> psygnisfive: damn your thing is lame, I'm gonna write mine now just because it sucks so much
16:01:33 <tusho> 23:56:56 <Slereah_> You...
16:01:33 <tusho> 23:56:57 <Slereah_> You...
16:01:34 <tusho> 23:57:03 <Slereah_> Ah, yes.
16:01:34 <tusho> 23:57:06 <Slereah_> Double nigger.
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16:06:14 <tusho> make a third version
16:06:17 <tusho> with it aligned to the center
16:06:21 <tusho> i bet it'll be pretty
16:08:06 <AnMaster> tusho, all of it? or just grepping for your name?
16:09:06 <tusho> no, just 4-7 minutes when I logon
16:37:18 <tusho> didn't notice you there
16:37:22 <tusho> I was too busy saying hi to oklopol
16:38:09 <oklopol> i occasionally start an infinite loop by hying myself in pm.
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17:35:11 <ihope> So, a sonic computer.
17:36:56 <ihope> Sonic computing would require overcoming the superposition principle, as otherwise signals couldn't interact at all.
17:37:51 <ihope> I think the key element in a sonic computer would be a bistable. Perhaps something whose resonant frequency changes with the amplitude at which it's vibrating.
17:39:00 <ihope> If you play 440Hz at such an element while its resonant frequency is 300Hz, not much will happen. If you increase the amplitude of your 440Hz wave enough, the resonant frequency will "catch", becoming close to 440Hz, and at the same time making the amplitude much higher.
17:39:57 <ihope> If you decrease the amplitude of the incoming wave back to where it was before, the element may still be resonating, making its own amplitude of vibration higher than it was originally, in turn making its resonant frequency such that it does indeed resonate.
17:55:18 <AnMaster> ihope, so how would you program it?
17:57:03 <ihope> Well, each of these elements would work as one bit of data storage. The "power line" would play a constant frequency at a constant amplitude, and these would power the elements. I guess when the elements are resonating with the power, their "output amplitude", whatever that is, will be higher than when they're not.
17:58:30 <AnMaster> ihope, so how would you turn just one element off?
17:58:45 <tusho> I wonder if <meta http-equiv='X-UA-Compatible' value='IE=5'> works...
17:58:50 <tusho> If so, that's deliciously evil and I'm doing it.
17:58:51 <ihope> Play the opposite of the power wave into just that one element.
17:58:55 <tusho> The IE8 users will feel PAIN!
17:59:29 <ihope> To turn just that element on, play the power wave into that element, in addition to the power it normally receives.
17:59:45 <AnMaster> ihope, so a lot of speakers or?
17:59:55 <tusho> AnMaster: X-UA-Compatible is a Bad Idea. Basically, Microsoft don't like having a standards-compliant rendering engine that actually works by default. So they have a great idea for IE8: put it into emulate-an-older-and-even-more-broken-rendering-engine mode by default!
18:00:03 <tusho> X-UA-Compatible lets you choose WHICH version of the engine it will use.
18:00:13 <tusho> It's designed for making it use the slightly-better engine, that is IE=8
18:00:22 <tusho> But IE 5 is just good enough at HTML & CSS to totally break my page.
18:00:22 <AnMaster> ihope, also how would you *fetch* a bit?
18:00:35 <AnMaster> tusho, does the site work in lynx?
18:00:50 <ihope> Not a bunch of speakers, just one thingy that produces a constant wave, the power wave. And some mechanical switches for input, I guess.
18:00:53 <tusho> semantic markup, styling with css to taste
18:01:05 <AnMaster> ihope, and how do the cpu work?
18:01:08 <tusho> Though. AnMaster, stop using lynx. Lynx is a terrible browser that ignores most standards and indeed just plain fails e.g. at tables.
18:01:13 <tusho> Use elinks or w3m. Think of the kittens.
18:01:23 <AnMaster> tusho, but it can handle shorttags!
18:01:35 <ihope> Fetching a bit would consist of attaching another tube to it so the waves it's producing can go somewhere else.
18:01:35 <tusho> AnMaster: I think w3m probably can.
18:02:02 <AnMaster> ihope, and how would addition work? or CPU
18:02:05 <ihope> Computation would consist of putting two waves together and putting the result in another register.
18:02:19 <tusho> AnMaster: well, i guess you'll have to give up shorttags
18:02:57 <tusho> I guess you're low-specced.
18:03:06 <AnMaster> tusho, well no, but I prefer to use my ram for other stuff
18:04:15 <ihope> You'd have high waves and low waves of various phases, and you can combine them to make superpositions, and then you can take those superpositions and stuff them through registers to get something that's not a superposition but either a high or a low.
18:04:59 <ihope> Or something in between if you do it exactly right; ideally, every state of the registers that's between high and low will be an unstable equilibrium.
18:05:15 <ihope> Well, unstable, anyway; they don't actually have to be equilibria, do they?
18:05:59 <tusho> AnMaster: fun fact - my site will contain no <div>s, <span>s, class=""s or id=""s
18:06:07 <AnMaster> ihope, how could the machine fetch the program from it's own memory?
18:06:14 <tusho> because HTML5 provides a wealth of semantic elements which act exactly like <div>s or <span>s which have semantic meaning
18:06:17 <tusho> so I can just style them
18:06:22 <tusho> AnMaster: that's a class=""
18:06:27 <tusho> <nav> - navigation
18:06:28 <tusho> <article> - article
18:06:30 <tusho> <section> - section
18:06:38 <tusho> <header>, <footer>, ...
18:06:42 <ihope> AnMaster: the program would be stored in the registers somehow, I guess.
18:06:43 <AnMaster> but does browsers handle html5?
18:07:05 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, a lot of them will just ignore the "invalid" tags
18:07:07 <AnMaster> ihope, what about main memory?
18:07:10 <tusho> and still let you style them
18:07:23 <tusho> AnMaster: http://rails.intertwingly.net/blog/ has no div,span,class,id
18:07:29 <tusho> works in just about everything
18:07:39 <ihope> Registers are memory.
18:07:57 <AnMaster> ihope, you need a LOT of registers then
18:07:58 <tusho> and yes it works in ly nx
18:08:32 <AnMaster> tusho, http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Frails.intertwingly.net%2Fblog%2F
18:08:42 <tusho> AnMaster: Duh. That is an HTML 4.01 checker.
18:08:51 <tusho> HTML 5 isn't actually formally published; but most of it is stable.
18:09:12 <tusho> (It won't be actually formally published until, like, 321023146545 AD, but browsers have supported it for years now.)
18:09:32 <AnMaster> is there any validator for it then?
18:09:40 <tusho> AnMaster: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Frails.intertwingly.net%2Fblog%2F
18:09:47 <tusho> beta, but works fine
18:09:55 <AnMaster> Info: The Content-Type was application/xhtml+xml. Using the XML parser (not resolving external entities).
18:10:06 <tusho> AnMaster: what about it?
18:10:14 <tusho> HTML5 has two serializations
18:10:25 <tusho> the actual language is identical
18:10:32 <tusho> but e.g. sam ruby uses it so he can embed svg and mathml
18:10:34 <tusho> which are xml languages
18:10:47 <tusho> nothing odd about it
18:12:17 <AnMaster> trac-bzr for 0.11 really rocks
18:12:29 <AnMaster> http://envbot.org/trac/browser
18:13:07 <AnMaster> http://67.202.82.26/trac/browser
18:16:55 <ihope> Also, I want a linear or nonlinear programming language.
18:17:01 <ihope> Doesn't really matter which.
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18:21:13 <ihope> You know what linear programming and nonlinear programming are?
18:21:29 <AnMaster> ihope, I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean
18:21:47 <ihope> I don't know what such a language would consist of.
18:22:04 <AnMaster> well can you decribe what you mean with those terms?
18:22:40 <AnMaster> ihope, maybe give an example of a linear and a non-linear langauge?
18:23:12 <ihope> I know that there's such a thing as linear programming, and such a thing as a programming language. I have no idea what a linear programming language would be, but it sounds cool.
18:23:38 <AnMaster> ihope, would C be linear or non-linear?
18:24:05 <ihope> I don't think C has anything to do with linear or nonlinear programming language.
18:24:19 <AnMaster> and I got no idea what those are
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18:52:39 <tusho> psygnisfive: do my suggestion!
18:52:44 <tusho> make a center-aligned one
18:52:47 <tusho> i bet it'd be nice
18:54:04 <psygnisfive> center aligning without stretching is worthless
18:54:13 <psygnisfive> and stretching them to be the same width is also worthless
18:54:29 <tusho> psygnisfive: well just put it up 'cause I wanna see it
18:54:42 <tusho> i have some other silly ideas too
18:54:43 <psygnisfive> but you cant see the self similarities as easily
18:56:27 <tusho> psygnisfive: put it up or i'll never let you rape me again
18:57:03 <tusho> i'm glad rape is a good motivator
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19:01:50 <tusho> psygnisfive: let us control how many generations it shows? pweeze? :D
19:02:12 <psygnisfive> er.. sure, but i warn you, each generation takes a shitload of time more than the last to display.
19:02:33 <tusho> 'cause, idea for awesome thing:
19:02:52 <tusho> pick an X number of generations so that the generated center one is square
19:02:57 <tusho> do (X/2) generations
19:03:05 <tusho> and put it on top of its vertically-reversed self
19:09:16 <psygnisfive> the center one doesnt show up because the vertical bands are getting too small to see.
19:11:00 <tusho> :::((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((99999999999
19:11:45 <tusho> psygnisfive: ok then
19:11:55 <tusho> say we have the first generation
19:12:07 <tusho> find the first character in it
19:12:15 <tusho> find the first occurance of it in the second generation
19:12:20 <tusho> and align the two up
19:12:24 <tusho> repeat for all future generations
19:12:55 <psygnisfive> thatd show the fractal nature of the thing more clearly, i suppose.
19:13:21 <psygnisfive> doing this in JavaScript and HTML is really slow tho. i'd need something more like flash and i dont have flash.
19:13:34 <psygnisfive> hell, i dont even know of flash would work
19:14:40 <tusho> and you can learn it in like 5 minutes.
19:14:42 <tusho> maybe not 5 minutes
19:15:56 <tusho> psygnisfive: what are your colours?
19:16:00 <tusho> and i'll do something
19:17:22 <tusho> psygnisfive: what, <canvas>?
19:17:35 <psygnisfive> dont worry. give me a few to make it work.
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19:29:11 <tusho> psygnisfive: progress? :P
19:29:18 <tusho> ooh something changed
19:29:23 <tusho> I can tell by the sores
19:29:28 <tusho> the sores changed.
19:29:31 <psygnisfive> yes, its working fine, im trying to figure out something interesting. silence. :P
19:29:44 <tusho> psygnisfive: i hope you know the sores are open.
19:29:50 * tusho stops making bad puns
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19:47:00 <tusho> make 'e' go to 'ii'
19:47:08 <tusho> it won't ee-explode
19:47:35 <augur> firefox keeps fucking caching the whole goddamned page and loading the cache
19:47:42 <augur> so i cant make changes and check them in FF
19:47:46 <augur> stupid fucking piece of shit browser
19:47:58 <augur> SHOULD NOT BE NECESSARY
19:48:11 <tusho> one extra press on yer keyboard
19:48:44 <tusho> it ignores the generation count thuough.
19:49:08 <tusho> it does 'e' totally wrongly
20:05:32 <augur> did i tell you i was done?
20:08:03 <augur> look at it now, fine.
20:08:29 <tusho> augur: is lacking in my idea
20:08:56 <augur> im not lacking in your idea
20:08:58 <tusho> (my aligning idea)
20:09:11 <augur> the center aligning?
20:09:15 <augur> im working on it. patients.
20:09:15 <tusho> to align generation B with previous generation A:
20:09:32 <tusho> Pick the first character of A. Find the first occurance of B. Move A to align with the first occurance in B.
20:09:37 <tusho> (Or the other way around, whatever.)
20:09:43 <augur> oh. thats much more complicated.
20:10:32 <tusho> augur: but it'd show the fractal nature.
20:10:39 <tusho> and it'd be pretty
20:10:48 <augur> why dont YOU do it then? :P
20:11:08 <tusho> because i am not as awesome as you
20:11:11 <tusho> and i wouldn't make it as awesomely
20:13:07 <tusho> augur: did that sucking up work
20:13:32 <tusho> don't you like the fractal nature
20:18:22 <augur> check out the center alignment :)
20:18:38 <tusho> augur: that's not mine
20:18:43 <tusho> i would have thought it'd look different
20:19:02 <tusho> is the bottom one mine
20:19:11 <augur> no, the bottom one is just center alignment.
20:19:22 <tusho> is e -> ii better than e -> ee?
20:19:25 <tusho> just repeating sucks
20:19:43 <augur> i like the just repeating tho because it adds large spots that behave as delimiters, which grow
20:19:47 <tusho> after 10 generations it breaks
20:19:50 <tusho> (for 'how are you today')
20:19:54 <tusho> it just stays the same
20:20:08 <augur> the width of the canvas is 1000px
20:20:12 <tusho> augur: ok, terrible idea -
20:20:18 <augur> it only draws 1000 px of the image
20:20:18 <tusho> what happens if you make the replacements list:
20:20:27 <tusho> that'll never grow
20:20:38 <augur> sure gimme a second
20:28:32 <tusho> augur: i'd really like to see that <.<
20:44:44 <tusho> augur: dude just let me specify them without the :
20:45:06 <augur> but then what if you want to add other letters?
20:45:06 <tusho> o, and slight bug-report: the middle one. the 6th row is darker than the others
20:45:17 <augur> yeah i know the middle one is wonky.
20:45:29 <tusho> then will you do my idea
20:46:15 <augur> actually im making it better in the long run.
20:46:20 <augur> your idea is hard to do, tusho.
20:47:40 <tusho> a:za,b:yb,c:xc,d:wd,e:ve,f:uf,g:tg,h:sh,i:ri,j:qj,k:pk,l:ol,m:nm,n:mn,o:lo,p:kp,q:jq,r:ir,s:hs,t:gt,u:fu,v:ev,w:dw,x:cx,y:by,z:az
20:47:59 <tusho> especially with the centered one
20:48:15 <tusho> and especially with the alphabetic
20:48:39 <tusho> with the centered one and the alphabet, it kinda fades into oblivion
20:50:06 <tusho> augur: can you do multiple chars on the LHS
20:50:50 <tusho> that would be cool
20:51:02 <augur> maybe in the next revision
20:53:05 <oklopol> yay then i can run my ski in it
20:53:40 <tusho> oklopol: that was my thought
20:53:43 <tusho> damn now I have to do that
20:54:41 <tusho> augur: really nice one
20:54:41 <tusho> a:zz,b:yy,c:xx,d:ww,e:vv,f:uu,g:tt,h:ss,i:rr,j:qq,k:pp,l:oo,m:nn,n:mm,o:ll,p:kk,q:jj,r:ii,s:hh,t:gg,u:ff,v:ee,w:dd,x:cc,y:bb,z:aa
20:55:14 <oklopol> www.vjn.fi/oklopol/thue.txt is the ski, just do s/\n/,/ and s/::=/:/
20:56:14 <ihope> I wonder if there's an easy way to calculate e using Thue.
20:56:34 * ihope settles for calculating phi
20:57:54 <oklopol> ihope: muture is kind of a linear programming language
20:58:17 <ihope> Does it involve linear programming?
20:58:39 <oklopol> i'm not sure what that is, just max-/minimizing linear functions?
20:59:16 <oklopol> muture has << and >> for "find such values for variables that result of expression min-/maximizes"
20:59:43 <oklopol> it's a simple functional language with those two declarative constructs
21:00:15 <tusho> oklopol: let's make a language based on string unrewriting
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21:01:06 <oklopol> tusho: sounds good. it is like thue, except A::=B does *not* rewrite occurrances of A to B.
21:01:11 -!- ihope_____ has changed nick to ihope.
21:01:17 <ihope> Shut up, freenode.
21:01:19 <tusho> we want turing completeness, though!
21:02:09 <oklopol> ...wouldn't *un*turing completeness be enough?
21:02:23 <ihope> A sample of Thue phi: bababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbaba
21:02:28 <ihope> bbabbababbabbababbabab
21:02:38 <tusho> bababababa bababababababababababbababa
21:04:18 <oklopol> perhaps do fib and then unary division?
21:04:54 <oklopol> fibonacci should be trivial, and unary division should be just as trivial
21:05:01 <oklopol> so really it should be a bit too easy for you
21:05:02 <ihope> This phi isn't good enough?
21:05:39 <ihope> Divide the number of bs by the number of as. You should get phi.
21:05:48 * ihope writes a Thue program that outputs 3.333...
21:05:51 <ihope> Really quite easy.
21:06:44 <ihope> <3::=3<*3*; *3*3::=3*3*; *3*>::=3>
21:06:50 <ihope> Which is, of course, not the best way of doing it.
21:07:01 <ihope> It'd be easier to just say * ::= 3*.
21:07:25 * ihope ponders a binary-to-ternary conversion
21:07:37 <tusho> you can use wildcards in thue replacements?!
21:07:39 <tusho> all makes sense now ...
21:07:49 <ihope> * isn't a wildcard, it's just a character.
21:07:56 <tusho> that's fucking clever.
21:08:06 <ihope> Thanks, I guess. :-)
21:08:08 <oklopol> ihope: what is that started on?
21:08:44 <ihope> If you replaced the <3> with <12345>, it would give you 3.123451234512345..., except it doesn't know about 1, 2, 4 and 5.
21:08:51 <tusho> that doesn't output it.
21:09:06 <oklopol> ihope: i don't get it, you just create an infinite sequence of 3's?
21:09:21 <tusho> ihope: dude he's asking how you did phi
21:10:05 <oklopol> you obfuscated, failed or... are weird?
21:11:41 <ihope> I made it more general. Except it still only works with 3s, so that's really less general than one would hope.
21:11:58 <ihope> Easily extensible to include 4s as well!
21:12:05 <augur> a:zz,... is boring...
21:12:19 <oklopol> you mean, generate and infinite sequence of certain characters?
21:13:02 <ihope> I guess it turns out I am weird after all.
21:13:29 <oklopol> i can't really read yours, but i suck at reading code anyway
21:14:21 <oklopol> asdf, games are so boring to code
21:14:34 <oklopol> no instant gratification, unlike with, say, parsers and interps :o
21:14:58 <tusho> oklopol: our next languages should make game programming awesome
21:15:10 * ihope ponders how possible it is to convert binary into ternary in Thue
21:15:30 <augur> ihope: its 100% possible
21:15:42 <oklopol> tusho: i'm actually designing something like that already, but i'm designing about a hundred languages so no surprise prolly
21:15:43 <ihope> Indeed. It may not be easy, though.
21:15:50 <augur> oh it aint easy i can guarantee that
21:16:03 <tusho> oklopol: yes but we would be together
21:16:04 <ihope> How inefficient. :-)
21:16:07 <tusho> so I would kind of push my idea
21:16:09 <augur> pps'es are painfully hard to use
21:16:10 <tusho> and you'd push yours
21:16:14 <tusho> and we'd blend into one
21:16:41 <oklopol> tusho: yes, yes, let's push each others' and explode
21:16:51 <tusho> that DID come out wrong
21:17:21 * oklopol thinks about base conversion in thue now, ihope better not do it first.
21:17:48 <ihope> "What's 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 in binary?" "Just a sec..." *writes down 2,000,000,000,000,000,000 zeros*
21:18:08 <augur> thats not correct :(
21:18:39 <oklopol> oh, right, it's actually pretty easy
21:19:01 <ihope> I'm converting the part after the decimal, by the way.
21:19:01 <augur> ihope cant convert to base 2 :D
21:19:15 <ihope> Just taking my time, I'm sure. :-)
21:19:19 <augur> the part after the decimal onverts easilly
21:19:34 <ihope> Besides, I'm actually thinking of a rather different thing.
21:20:07 <ihope> With two support, I intend to slap augur.
21:20:24 <tusho> Teh Cltohed Mna supports.
21:20:34 <ihope> Tec Cltohed Mna can't support.
21:20:38 <augur> only oklopol gets to slap me.
21:20:41 <oklopol> ihope: just do "tripart | head rest" -> "tripart <doubledigits> <carry> head <add> | rest", roughly
21:20:46 <tusho> ihope: Yes he can.
21:20:50 <oklopol> and iterate until "head rest" = ""
21:20:51 <tusho> This is #esotericgora
21:21:05 <ihope> You mean #esoteragora.
21:21:16 <oklopol> <> are rpn function turtles that do the operation to what's to the left of them
21:21:36 <oklopol> <add> is just <inc> or <nop> depending on the binary digit in question
21:21:48 <ihope> That can't be right. It's too easy.
21:22:06 <oklopol> thue can be used pretty modularly
21:22:37 <oklopol> you have to do quite a bit of tricks, so don't expect it to take less than an hour
21:22:50 <ihope> Hmm, that works pretty nicely.
21:22:54 <oklopol> trinary | binary, and start with "" | "binpart"
21:22:59 <ihope> I'm trying to do it differently, though.
21:23:11 <ihope> Carrying all your state with you, rather than spitting it out behind you.
21:23:33 <oklopol> well i like my solution in that it doesn't force determinism
21:23:50 <oklopol> but yeah, that's basically the same, i just wanted something easily explainable
21:24:24 <oklopol> damn i hate it when there's something i'm supposed to do, i can't do anything fun, but i won't do the boring thing i have to do anyway
21:24:36 * ihope walks across the Michigan border, then gets charged for littering by discarding Michigan rather than disposing of it in the proper receptacles
21:25:00 <ihope> Indeed, that's how it goes.
21:26:23 <oklopol> ihope: also, "tripart | head rest" -> "head | tripart <doubledigits> <carry> head <add> | rest" it's just about not losing your head
21:26:27 <ihope> The ratio of each Fibonacci number to the preceding one approaches phi as the Fibonacci numbers approach infinity. 1 + phi = phi^2.
21:26:37 <ihope> And phi = (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
21:26:42 <oklopol> i don't see fibs in the sequence
21:27:00 <ihope> The abbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbabab sequence?
21:27:17 * ihope runs that through a text-to-speech
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21:28:03 <ihope> a represents 1, b represents phi. When everything is multiplied by phi (> or < passes through), 1 becomes phi (a becomes b) and phi becomes phi^2 = 1 + phi (b becomes ab).
21:28:46 <ihope> Hmm, this might be able to represent arbitrary algebraic integers...
21:29:08 <tusho> augur: what ahppened
21:29:33 <oklopol> ihope: and you start with ab?
21:31:28 <tusho> what did you change augur
21:31:40 <augur> the drawing mechanism. i abstracted out a drawing function.
21:31:56 <augur> it makes the drawing correct every time.
21:32:06 <ihope> >a::=b>, >b::=ab>, actually, and the same when the pointer's moving in the other direction, with reversers on each side.
21:32:10 <augur> unlike before, with the error on the 6+nth iteration
21:32:31 <oklopol> i was on a conceptually higher level
21:33:49 <ihope> Hmm. This corresponds to the equations a = k*b, b = k*(a+b), I think...
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22:25:22 <augur> check it out now :D
22:33:09 * SimonRC realises that "Funk's Yo' Brother" may not be well known in ForeignLand
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22:35:25 <olsner> "funk's yo' brother"? to me it's always sounded more like "my funk's so brava", where I assumed "brava" was some slang I just didn't know
22:35:31 <oklopol> i don't know stuff that's known in XLand for any value of X.
22:36:01 <olsner> if you're referring to the line of that song, whatever song it is
22:36:39 <olsner> you probably know better than me though :)
22:37:07 <SimonRC> "The Funk Soul Brother, Check It Out Now
22:37:08 <SimonRC> The Funk Soul Brother, Right About Now"
22:37:30 <olsner> the funk soul brother? that makes no sense
22:37:36 <oklopol> imo says it pretty clearly
22:38:33 <oklopol> SimonRC: anyway, i'll go with cheese
22:40:34 <oklopol> heh, this is probably the most boring song ever.
22:41:25 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFfBr_u5nw0
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22:52:27 <ihope> My. There's a sound file in a web page, I click play, it plays about 1/5 of the way through, then it stops, and about 10 seconds later, it starts back up again, but now it's 4/5 of the way through.
22:53:51 <tusho> centered one is still bugged
22:53:53 <tusho> some lines are shaded out
22:54:15 <tusho> the first,second,third,fifth,sixth
22:54:25 <augur> oh, no, theyre just blurry
22:54:39 <tusho> augur: will you do my idea now
22:54:42 <tusho> since I bet that was harder
22:54:48 <augur> its too hard to do your idea.
22:54:56 <tusho> i'll even write it out in pseudocode if you want
22:55:04 <tusho> if i do that will you do it
22:55:04 <ihope> So, a = k*b and b = k*(a + b).
22:55:08 <augur> i dont even remember your idea :D
22:55:37 <ihope> Then k = a/b = 1/phi.
22:56:19 <ihope> Then we just need to differentiate something.
22:56:32 <augur> oklopol, the vertical versions actually let you see some of the fractal nature
22:56:47 <tusho> augur: but mine would too
22:56:55 <tusho> pseudocode and you do it
22:58:35 <augur> http://wellnowwhat.net/alphabeticalseesay.xhtml
22:58:48 <tusho> augur: one letter is one pixel, right?
22:59:10 <tusho> The previous generation is P.
22:59:10 <tusho> The just-calculated generation is G.
22:59:11 <tusho> Find the first occurance of C in G. The position at which it is found is Z.
22:59:11 <tusho> Put G at Z pixels in from the start of P.
22:59:13 <tusho> (This could also be done reversed or whatever.)
23:00:29 <augur> you mean g pixels to the left of the start of p.
23:01:19 <augur> tusho, i want you to draw this out visually so you can see what its going to do
23:01:25 <augur> because i dont think itll do what you think itll do
23:01:33 <tusho> you mean g pixels to the left of the start of p.
23:01:54 <augur> well then you're not showing the fractal nature.
23:02:07 <tusho> do it g pixels to the left of the start of p
23:02:18 <tusho> so I don't know how you can have "g pixels"
23:02:46 <tusho> augur: C is a character
23:02:52 <augur> i cant stand your pseudocode, it sucks.
23:02:53 <tusho> z pixels in left of the start of p
23:02:55 <tusho> that's what I meant
23:04:27 <augur> no i think what would show the fractal nature even better is if each time i expand a letter, inside an expansion of itself, i darken the sub expansion
23:04:47 <augur> but let me figure out how im going to do that because itll be tricky
23:07:13 <augur> this is gonna involve a significant change. i hate you. >.<
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23:21:52 <tusho> how's it going augur
23:22:26 * ihope ponders what you're supposed to differentiate in a = k*b, b = k*(a + b), k = a/b = 1/phi
23:22:51 <ihope> You want a/b = 1/phi to be a stable equilibrium, so it's kind of the derivative of a/b with respect to a/b.
23:23:04 <ihope> Except it's the derivative of the a/b on the right with respect to the a/b on the left.
23:24:06 <ihope> Or is it the other way around?
23:24:35 * oerjan wonders what the problem is since there is no derivation mentioned that he can see
23:25:48 <tusho> problemtive awesome
23:26:00 * oerjan slaps oklopol with a troutive
23:27:08 <oerjan> a = k*b, b = k*(a + b) implies b = k*(k*b + b) or k*k + k = 1
23:28:35 <tusho> what is this awful MATHEMATICS doing in #esoteric
23:28:50 <tusho> augur: HOWISITGOINGNOW
23:29:04 <oklopol> oerjan: that was weirdly put
23:29:21 <oklopol> you could say b = 0 or k^2 + k - 1 = 0
23:29:59 <oerjan> the "or" really means, "so"
23:30:08 <tusho> what colour should my links be
23:30:28 <tusho> oerjan: i think css3 has something for that
23:30:37 <tusho> but if it does it certainly isn't implemented by anything
23:30:45 <augur> dont make me rape you tusho
23:30:48 <tusho> [that there was a Web Designer Joke]
23:30:50 <tusho> [they're very bad.]
23:32:14 <oerjan> i assume k = 1/phi is one of the solutions to k^2 + k - 1 = 0, cannot be bothered to check
23:33:01 <oerjan> ihope: in any case, i don't see any need for differentiating
23:33:01 <tusho> so anyone have any real, solid, distinct colours representable by six hex digits?
23:33:07 <tusho> as interpreted as rgb values.
23:34:41 <tusho> and 007700 = a rather bland green
23:34:45 <ihope> oerjan: well, every step, f(B) becomes f(A) and f(A) + f(B) becomes f(B).
23:34:49 <oerjan> ah you mean not polkadot
23:35:00 <tusho> oerjan: Links can only be one colour. :P
23:35:07 <ihope> Then the idea is to show that B/A = phi is a stable equilibrium.
23:35:09 <tusho> I could do some kind of horrific JS hack
23:35:14 <oerjan> ihope: um so = is _assignment_?
23:36:02 <ihope> oerjan: pretend I never said anything except my last two messages.
23:36:19 <oerjan> ihope: i see. this is a property of matrices with positive entries
23:36:42 <oerjan> they have a unique positive eigenvalue with eigenvector (up to scale)
23:36:55 <ihope> What's this one? [[1,1][0,1]]^n?
23:37:25 * oerjan doesn't remember the name of the theorem
23:37:51 <oerjan> however, solving for eigenvectors and changing base is one way i think
23:38:31 <oerjan> some M^n should have strictly positive entries
23:38:52 <oerjan> although M itself can have zeroes
23:39:05 <ihope> Hmm. Square it and you get [[1,2][0,1]], multiply that by the original and you get [[1,3][0,1]]... something like that.
23:39:27 <oerjan> ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perron%E2%80%93Frobenius_theorem
23:39:52 <oerjan> oh right it's triangular
23:40:14 <oerjan> that messes it up, the zero never disappears
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23:41:06 <oerjan> oh there is a version for matrices with zeros later
23:42:03 <tusho> oerjan: what do you think about #4444AA, then?
23:45:49 <oerjan> er, bright is not the right word
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23:47:33 <tusho> oerjan: http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08266/picture5214.png
23:47:43 <tusho> (ignore the rather odd filler text)
23:48:40 <tusho> (i intend to write something about the Universal Edit Button which explains the title/subtitle, then I just started writing crap to fill up)
23:48:49 <tusho> (better than lorem ipsum)
23:49:22 <oerjan> you know that is not far from my default link color i think
23:50:31 <oklopol> a bit brighter than my default
23:51:04 <oklopol> well, not sure what the exact difference is, all i know is yours looks happier.
23:51:25 <oerjan> (noting that i never have changed the default. i do like blue after all.)
23:52:10 <tusho> isn't the default pure blue?
23:52:36 <tusho> if so, isn't it a bit darker?
23:53:05 <oklopol> tusho: happier. all i know.
23:53:13 <tusho> oklopol: and more subtle, right
23:53:21 <tusho> flows better with the text?
23:54:00 * SimonRC would recommend leaving it to the web browser.
23:54:13 <SimonRC> assuming you are keeping that black-on-white look
23:54:18 <tusho> SimonRC: #0000FF is horrible
23:54:26 <tusho> it doesn't flow with text properly at all
23:54:31 <tusho> and is way too harhs
23:54:47 <tusho> also, browser's typography generally sucks hard and makes stuff hard to read
23:54:50 <tusho> so I overrid a lot of that too
23:55:19 <tusho> and it's not a "black-on-white" look really, just a whitespace-driven look
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23:58:28 <oerjan> augur: incidentally you probably can use the Perron-Frobenius theorem to calculate the limit letter frequencies of your alphabetical look-and-say sequence
23:58:51 <oerjan> the one i pointed ihope to for his problem
23:59:28 <oerjan> it works for all sorts of substitution-like things
00:00:17 <tusho> oerjan: does it work for any thue program?
00:00:45 <oerjan> well _simultaneous_ substitutions
00:00:53 <oerjan> every letter to some word
00:01:29 <oerjan> also, the atoms in Conway's numerical look-and-say can be handled this way too
00:01:46 <oerjan> to get frequencies and the "cosmological constant"
00:02:37 <tusho> 123456789 111213141516171819 31121113111411151116111711181119
00:04:18 <oerjan> er, "Conway's constant"
00:04:33 <pikhq> Conway's constant?!?
00:05:02 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_and_say_sequence
00:05:35 <tusho> 22 22 22 22 22 22 22
00:05:50 <tusho> # No digits other than 1, 2, and 3 ever appear in the sequence, unless the seed number contains such a digit or a run of more than three of the same digit.
00:06:13 <oerjan> that's the constant for the limit of growth, which is also the eigenvalue from the PF sequence
00:06:28 <tusho> oklopol: thoroughly
00:06:46 <oerjan> no it is _not_ trivial
00:06:47 <tusho> "This sequence is also referred to as containing Langford numbers." <-- are they like langford basilisks? :P
00:06:53 <tusho> oerjan: ok, well it sounded it
00:07:06 <oerjan> i had to correct someone on the talk page for that once
00:07:21 <oerjan> well it is _nearly_ trivial, but not quite
00:07:27 <oklopol> tusho is even worse a trivializer than i am
00:07:55 <oerjan> the point is that you could imagine getting there after several iterations
00:07:56 <tusho> whoa, it's the first section on the talk page
00:09:32 <tusho> 1111111111 101 111011 311021 1321101211 1113122110111221
00:09:34 <tusho> look and say is fun
00:09:57 <oklopol> is 10 base carrying an official part of it btw?
00:10:36 <oerjan> oklopol: sort of. all bases >= 4 behave nearly identical after the first few steps
00:10:42 <tusho> what about bases < 4?
00:11:02 <oerjan> they are somewhat different, i found
00:11:30 <oerjan> you don't get digit 3 popping up
00:11:50 <tusho> oerjan: unary look and say is boring
00:11:57 <tusho> 1 11 1111 11111111
00:12:39 <tusho> because 11 is '11' 1s
00:12:41 <oklopol> isn't unary carry N -> 1(N-1)?
00:13:04 <oerjan> even more boring. yay!
00:13:46 <oerjan> i _think_ Conway did all bases in the original paper but i haven't checked
00:14:22 <tusho> 111021101221101221
00:14:30 <tusho> not that interesting, yeah.
00:14:51 <oklopol> tusho: forgot the unary carry.
00:15:04 <tusho> I was doing base 2 there
00:15:41 <oklopol> it's not the same as unary
00:16:02 <tusho> if we consider '0's eyeballs, it kind of grows a new eyeball every now and then
00:16:43 <oerjan> i expect the base 2 and 3 cases to have similar theorems as the >= 4 ones, just different
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00:17:17 <oerjan> i don't recall if i thought it through all the way when pondering it
00:17:33 <tusho> oerjan: what about odd bases
00:17:36 <tusho> like base i and stuff
00:17:41 <oerjan> also, one more variation: you could say the digit _first_, then the number of digits
00:17:50 <oklopol> tusho: you don't get any i's there
00:18:09 <edwardk> haven't wandered over this way in a while, thought I'd swing by =)
00:18:19 <oerjan> tusho: you could of course generalize completely and code each length as an arbitrary word
00:18:28 <oklopol> oerjan: that's only different if you have carry
00:18:58 <oklopol> edwardk: what's the news on your uncomputable superlanguage?
00:19:06 <oerjan> i mean an arbitrary function from lengths to strings
00:19:13 <oklopol> did you add another construct only oerjan can understand?
00:20:11 <tusho> oerjan: i still like the idea of a base -2i look and say
00:20:29 <edwardk> oklopol: heh, well, hrmm. i don't remember if we talked about nuel or kata
00:20:38 <edwardk> if it was nuel i shelved it pretty much completely
00:20:41 <tusho> oerjan: i don't know base -2i
00:20:55 <edwardk> if it was kata i'm hacking away quite furiously ;)
00:21:23 <edwardk> oklopol: kata = nuel without types, but i temporarily cut the theorem proving bits while i work on the main language
00:21:56 <edwardk> otoh, i still get some of the benefits because i can check a lot of the pattern matching at compile time
00:22:12 <oerjan> i vaguely recall thinking something like, if the strings representing lengths don't grow more than logarithmically (as -2i also wouldn't) then there will be a bound on what digits eventually appear
00:22:22 <edwardk> oklopol: and yeah there are plenty of oerjanly constructs in it ;)
00:22:49 <tusho> edwardk: is it oklo though
00:22:55 <tusho> and is it o and oko
00:22:58 <tusho> if not, oklopol doesn't want to know
00:23:04 <tusho> especially if it's easy to use
00:23:39 <edwardk> heh, well it does have a built-in sugar for working with comonads, and you have to do IO using the codensity monad of a free monad of IO actions, so its definitely esoteric ;)
00:23:43 <tusho> (and by 'oklopol' we are referring to the collective pronoun of 'the disciples of the oko religion')
00:23:56 <tusho> oklopol: here, let's demonstrate our faith to the oko
00:24:45 <oklopol> but i'm afraid i still lack some crucial theory when it comes to category theory.
00:24:57 <tusho> oklopol: IT'S OKO TOWER TIME DAMNIT
00:25:11 <edwardk> oklopol: heh i've blogged a ton of category theory bits on the topic over the last few months
00:25:14 <tusho> that was a lame tower
00:25:33 <tusho> let's do it properly
00:25:57 <oklopol> (i know i was gonna switch to linux, but you know, i'm lazy.)
00:26:17 * oerjan wonders how oklofok and oklokok differ from oklopol, grammatically
00:26:32 <oerjan> they are obviously closely related
00:26:53 <oerjan> oklopol: in the context of <tusho> (and by 'oklopol' we are referring to the collective pronoun of 'the disciples of the oko religion')
00:27:01 <tusho> they're obvciously lmlads
00:27:23 <tusho> oerjan: ah, oklofok refers to the innate oko _nature_ all oklopol have within us
00:27:35 <tusho> that is, it still refers to the disciples, but shifted to refer to the innate oko nature of them
00:27:39 <tusho> (which is themself)
00:27:59 <tusho> oklokok is the same, but with the string of anti-oko instead of the innate oko nature
00:28:04 <tusho> (of course, oko is defined by the string of anti-oko)
00:28:52 * tusho scared off edwardk
00:29:05 <tusho> are you prejudiced against our religion edwardk?!~?~?~?~?~?!~!@
00:29:05 <oerjan> ah it all makes sense now. if i don't think too hard, anyway.
00:29:43 <oklopol> i'm sure he was a little scared on by that, rather
00:29:47 <edwardk> was sitting here trying to figure out how to merge a couple of ways to thinking about coroutines and if i'd get any benefit out of thw windows fiber api
00:29:49 * oerjan didn't know about the anti-oko before
00:29:53 <tusho> oerjan: it's kind of like zen except we mock zen for being stupid
00:29:58 <augur> ill be back in an hour
00:30:04 <augur> dont worry, im close to being finished :p
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00:31:02 <oerjan> windows has fibers? it appears to be more advanced than i previously had been aware
00:31:27 <edwardk> oerjan: yeah actually they've got arguably a better fiber api than the posix makecontext/swapcontext crap
00:31:57 <edwardk> its not all that complicated to use either, sql server runs on top of it
00:32:19 * oerjan of course is assuming fiber has the usual mathematical meaning, since he doesn't even know the compsci one. just so you're warned.
00:32:44 <edwardk> a fiber is a lightweight cooperative thread
00:32:56 <edwardk> you swap fibers cooperatively, its like switching stacks
00:34:28 <edwardk> basically since kata is pretty much designed to be more or less bare metal speed where it can for a language with so little type info, permitting fibers and async io as a useful default practice would drive the right behavior in the APIs
00:34:54 <edwardk> most languages just kinda throw a thin veneer over the basic blocking posix crap and call it a day
00:35:21 <edwardk> er designed to be as close to bare metal speed
00:36:47 <edwardk> basically trying to figure out how to hand around fibers in a type-safe manner at the moment or if i shouldn't bother to add them to my cognitive overhead
00:37:22 <edwardk> one can argue that they add no value if the rest of your language is designed right
00:38:27 <tusho> edwardk: We like kittens.
00:39:28 <oerjan> no! evil subversive monster felines!
00:40:10 <edwardk> oklopol: http://comonad.com/reader/2008/kan-extensions/ explains the codensity stuff i mentioned earlier, but if you don't do haskell it might cause your brain to segfault
00:43:35 <oklopol> i don't do haskell, i just know some of it.
00:43:51 <oerjan> for an example of their evil, see from the bottom of http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic/series.php?view=archive&chapter=9816
00:48:38 <tusho> oerjan: I liked tha
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01:36:44 <augur> tusho: its hard to see the fractals :(
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04:50:07 <Slereah_> Man it's hard to find a good version of Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye.
04:50:19 <Slereah_> Either it's sung mediocrely, or it's incomplete.
04:50:41 <Slereah_> I found one that almost was perfect, but the last verse is missing.
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06:00:19 <augur> OH DOCTOR WHOOOOOO ARE YOU
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08:49:10 <Slereah_> Well, better than Gregor Dead, I suppose.
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09:34:32 <KingOfKarlsruhe> hello, my new version (0.1.0) is finished :-) it produces smaller BF code http://paste.pocoo.org/show/78109/
10:08:15 <oklopol> "Hello World" is saved as "[H][E][L][O][W][R][D]" what?
10:14:18 <oklopol> well i have no idea what you meant by that
10:15:08 <KingOfKarlsruhe> you can type "hello world" or you can type H = 1 e = 2 l = 3 o = 4 --> 12334 --> hello
10:20:44 <oklopol> okay, what's the algo, i can't really get that just by reading.
10:21:31 <oklopol> first of all, it's a function from texts to brainfuck codes that output that text?
10:23:39 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i calculate the BF equivalent of the character an save it in my dictionary
10:24:05 <oklopol> and you just stack those one after another in a string?
10:24:24 <KingOfKarlsruhe> if the character in the dictionary: goto position else: save it on the end of the dictionary
10:24:53 <oklopol> so if that char is output twice, it rewinds to last use?
10:25:27 <oklopol> so it nubs the whole string on the tape
10:26:16 <KingOfKarlsruhe> yes on the tape i have [H][E][L][O][W][R][D] and i use the ">", "<" to print the rest
10:26:23 <oklopol> okay, that was how i assumed it worked
10:26:33 <oklopol> now, that's very inefficient
10:27:59 <oklopol> what you want to do is create as little "base characters" as possible, and when printing char X, navigate to closest char in ascii value, make it X, and output
10:35:52 <KingOfKarlsruhe> heheh my next version produce smaller code than this version :)
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10:50:46 <oklopol> i should make a bf generation program
10:50:59 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: let's compete
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11:15:54 <oklopol> ++++++++++[->+++>++++>+++++++>++++++++++<<<<]++.+.+++++++..+++.++++.++.++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.+.
11:25:46 <oklopol> +++++++++++++++[->++>+++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<]---.----.+++++++..+++.-.++.-..+++.------.--------.+.
11:26:04 <oklopol> i could just have read it and realized i don't have the <>'s
11:26:58 <oklopol> +++++++++++++++[->++>+++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<]<<<---.<----.+++++++..+++.>>-.>++.<<<<-.>.+++.------.--------.>>>+.
11:27:28 <oklopol> perhaps i have to write a bf
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11:35:01 <oklopol> +++++++++++++++[->++>+++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<]>>>---.>----.+++++++..+++.<<-.<++.>>>>-.<.+++.------.--------.<<<+.
11:35:32 <oklopol> can someone run egobot or something?
11:36:29 <oklopol> +++++++++++++++++[->+>++>++++>++++++>+++++++<<<<<]>>>++++.>-.+++++++..+++.<<--.>>>.<.+++.------.--------.<<+.<-------. is "Hello world!"
11:36:38 <oklopol> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.-
11:37:24 <oklopol> perhaps i'll try adding some heuristic
11:40:41 <oklopol> actually, nm, don't really feel like it
11:41:21 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: can i see some of your results so i can try to beat your original naive one?
11:43:31 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p433226444.txt
11:44:09 <oklopol> there's the a trivial heuristic of not letting base values grow too near each other.
11:44:15 <oklopol> but i didn't even make that one
11:48:33 <oklopol> That's brainfuck in mine: +++++++++++++++++[->++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++<<<<<]>>>-.>++.-------.>---.<<<<+++++.>>>>-.<<<<-------.>--.>>>-.<.++++++++.+++++.--------.>+++.<---.++++++++.
11:48:38 <KingOfKarlsruhe> output : Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia
11:51:58 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p122223663.txt
11:52:37 <KingOfKarlsruhe> you calculate from all letters the middle-value and then you add ' - ' or '+'
11:53:03 <oklopol> middle-value? average you mean?
11:53:29 <oklopol> well, tusho calls okopython, i write it a bit differently from others
11:55:13 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i feel so bad ^^ i worked 3 days on my solution and your code is smaller and better wahhhh
11:55:56 <oklopol> on this channel, the older you are, the more you get owned, it seems
11:56:25 <oklopol> but really i've coded so much python i don't really have to give it any thought
11:56:54 <oklopol> i don't really decide on an algo, i just open a text file and wait for about an hour for the code to be ready
11:57:05 <oklopol> it's python that does all the work
11:57:55 <oklopol> i'm a bit of a python-enthusiast
11:58:37 <KingOfKarlsruhe> oklopol: i am new on coding ... my first code was at December 07
11:59:09 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: anyway, i separated basemultiplier + basenumbers -> code, and then just iterated through possible basemultipliers and found the heuristically best list of basenumbers
11:59:19 <oklopol> and checked what produces the shortest code
12:00:16 <oklopol> well it's been used before, i didn't really invent it
12:00:29 <oklopol> although i'm 90% sure i'd've invented it if i hadn't seen it
12:01:57 <oklopol> algorithm is the correct form btw
12:03:42 <oklopol> but with my way to create the actual output from the base list, i don't get the results of wikipedia even with the base list they use
12:03:45 <KingOfKarlsruhe> you have a char like "C" then you so ord() so you habe the char-value... then you have 67 and do 67 * '+'.. then you divide it for the best factors
12:04:19 <oklopol> to get the base number for a certain base number
12:04:27 <oklopol> to get the base numbers for a certain base multiplier
12:04:50 <oklopol> c.add(int(round(float(ord(i))/b)))
12:04:54 <oklopol> this finds the base numbers
12:05:02 <oklopol> nnscript fucks up the indentation
12:06:09 <oklopol> [72, 101, 108, 108, 111, 44, 32, 119, 111, 114, 108, 100, 33]
12:06:16 <oklopol> this is the map(ord,...) for it
12:06:46 <oklopol> it would create the sorted set set([30,40,70,100])
12:06:54 <oklopol> set([30,40,70,100,110]), actually
12:07:14 <oklopol> for base 100, it would create set([0,100])
12:08:12 <oklopol> for base 17, there'd be 34 for the value 33, and 51 for 44, etx
12:09:16 <oklopol> for each character in the string to be generated, it takes the closest integer multiple of the basemultiplier
12:10:39 <oklopol> so sorted(set([int(round(float(i)/base)) for i in s]))
12:11:07 <oklopol> base is the base multiplier
12:11:36 <oklopol> also it generates the list of numbers before multiplying with the base number, not the actual multiplied numbers
12:11:53 <oklopol> i try all base multipliers
12:12:00 <oklopol> and check which produces shortest code
12:12:11 <oklopol> return least(len,[txt2bf_(s,b,findc(s,b)) for b in xrange(3,40)])[1]
12:12:18 <oklopol> the xrange is the base numbers i try
12:13:55 <oklopol> anyway, i'd prolly have done all this genetically, but as EgoBot already has such a bfgen, i couldnt
12:14:27 <oklopol> i usually go for genetics, and let things sort themselves out
12:15:49 <oklopol> oh btw, don't use the bf, it doesn't actually work for anything but this
12:16:20 <oklopol> didn't wanna type the 50 more characters, too much work-o
12:19:49 <KingOfKarlsruhe> this code i much higher than my brain... i learn very much from your solution.. thanks
12:20:08 <oklopol> hey, i couldn't read yours either :P
12:20:34 <oklopol> i need declarative explanations for functions
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13:39:11 <oklopol> guess a few, take the best, guess a few close to the good ones, iterate
13:40:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, do you use some automated software to do this?
13:40:48 <AnMaster> iirc there are frameworks for genetic programmin
13:40:50 <oklopol> well whatever you mean, i use python
13:40:58 <oklopol> well sure, but i usually write the 5 lines myself
13:41:38 <oklopol> it doesn't have sets without importing a module, that's an instantsetback
13:41:50 <oklopol> *instant setback, although still a weird word choice
13:42:08 <oklopol> it doesn't have lists at all, that really renders it completely useless for fun programming
13:42:31 <AnMaster> anyway you got hashes by libraries
13:43:34 <oklopol> i assumed you meant a hash value
13:43:43 <oklopol> sure you do get those from libs
13:43:49 <AnMaster> also you can write faster programs in C than in any interpreted language
13:44:13 <oklopol> i don't like downloading libs
13:44:23 <oklopol> anyway, i have time to wait for my slow programs to finish
13:44:39 <oklopol> doesn't really matter to me whether it's a microsecond or a millisecond
13:44:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, when python can be compiled to native machine code I may change opinion
13:45:10 <oklopol> i simply can't tell the difference
13:45:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, the day python can be used to write a kernel...
13:55:19 <oklopol> kernels aren't all that interesting
13:56:04 <oklopol> anyway, i've done tons of C/C++
13:56:33 <oklopol> but nowadays i just prefer to do my daily coding in non-esolangs
13:58:48 <oklopol> and before you can answer my malicious joke
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15:46:16 <Slereah_> Heh. I think I saw sum phishing :D
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17:42:36 <tusho> 03:55:56 <oklopol> on this channel, the older you are, the more you get owned, it seems
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17:43:32 <tusho> KingOfKarlsruhe: and yeah, oklopol's code often does tons of crazy stuff in a tiny amount of space
17:43:59 <tusho> i mean, the last function there is even a BF interpreter
17:44:04 <tusho> although it only handles one set of nested brackets
17:44:07 <tusho> so it's not turing complete
17:45:25 <tusho> 05:45:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, the day python can be used to write a kernel...
17:45:30 <tusho> is the day when you can use python to write a kernel
17:48:39 <AnMaster> is the day I will use python maybe
17:48:56 <KingOfKarlsruhe> tusho: oklopol geniality is aweosome ! i need 3 hours to understand _what_ this code do
17:49:17 <AnMaster> btw anyone know a good non-intrusive cd player for linux? console
17:49:45 <tusho> AnMaster: why does every language have to be able to be usable for kernel writing to use it?
17:49:48 <AnMaster> I can't do the normal for file in *.ogg; do ogg123 "$file"; done
17:50:01 <tusho> why does that matter if you're not writing a kernel?
17:50:18 <tusho> AnMaster: bash can't write a kernel
17:50:33 * AnMaster ponders making a bash -> C compiler
17:50:48 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, hm can it play CDs?
17:51:02 <tusho> AnMaster: what do you think of my blog design http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08266/picture5214.png
17:51:11 <tusho> (warning: picture is drunk on design simplicity)
17:51:17 <tusho> (and meaningless filler text)
17:51:48 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe a small title (<h1>) at the top?
17:52:07 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: congrats if you get it, not many have even tried to read my code.
17:52:27 <tusho> AnMaster: considered it, not sure if it's really necessary though, the little introductory paragraph is pretty simple and explicit
17:52:31 <tusho> plus what would I put there?
17:52:35 <tusho> <h1>tusho.org</h1>?
17:52:38 <tusho> because that's self-evident
17:52:45 <AnMaster> tusho, oh if you got no better name...
17:52:59 <tusho> well, i'd like to call it copenhagen because that's a nice name
17:53:03 <tusho> but copenhagen.org is obviously taken
17:53:26 <tusho> and points to a site much uglier than mine may I add
17:55:22 <tusho> AnMaster: i wish I could control the spacing of sentences through css
17:55:27 <tusho> i'd like to make the space a bit wider
17:55:35 <tusho> and I certainly don't want to do that's just hideous
17:55:43 <tusho> alas, that would be css meddling with i18n
17:55:45 <tusho> to define 'sentence'
17:55:47 <tusho> so it won't happen
17:56:05 <AnMaster> tusho, if you want typesetting try LaTeX
17:56:13 <AnMaster> also sure you can't do it in CSS?
17:56:24 <tusho> it isn't much of a problem though
17:56:33 <tusho> since I'm used to reading sentences seperated by one space
17:56:47 <tusho> (certainly, two spaces is just as silly as one. It's not about how many spaces there are, it's about the actual spacing.)
18:00:29 <tusho> AnMaster: http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08260/picture6487.png here's what it looks like without css
18:00:38 <tusho> (note, I added the '3.0' to the license and removed subtitles just now, so that's not due to css being off)
18:00:55 <AnMaster> tusho, why are the titles links?
18:01:01 <tusho> AnMaster: links to the entries
18:01:05 <AnMaster> that bit look a bit uggly, but apart from that: nice
18:01:19 <tusho> it's quite common to click on a title to get to a post page
18:01:28 <tusho> of course, the blueness isn't that appealing, so it's styled away
18:01:34 <tusho> i think wordpress was the first one to link the titles
18:01:37 <tusho> but it's quite common now
18:01:41 <tusho> and anyway I click titles all the time
18:02:03 <tusho> oh, and it rocks in lynx/elinks/w3m
18:26:28 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, yay cplay can do it
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19:56:05 <augur> heyo. hows it goin? :D
19:56:40 <augur> omg tusho did you see doctor who last night?!
19:57:24 <augur> watching television is the most lazy thing you can do
19:57:48 <augur> coding requires that you type
19:58:07 <augur> holy fucking shit it was crazy
19:58:15 <tusho> wow, I just kind of transfer my glob into the text file
19:58:35 <augur> i'd transfer your glob if you know what i mean
19:59:28 <augur> (read that in the voice of ainsley harriot)
19:59:58 <augur> lament, did YOU watch doctor who?
20:01:05 <augur> you can't spell "lament" without "lame"
20:01:22 <augur> BOTH OF YOU GO WATCH IT RIGHT NOW
20:13:29 <AnMaster> there is no doctor who on any of the tv channels I got here in Sweden
20:14:08 <augur> surfthechannel.com
20:14:12 <augur> its all the TV i need :P
20:16:51 <tusho> AnMaster: tell me a good way to distribute streamed video content that works cross-browser and cross-platform
20:17:12 <AnMaster> tusho, can't you stream ogg-theora?
20:17:24 <tusho> AnMaster: cross-browser and cross-platform
20:17:33 <tusho> and something that people actually have installed
20:17:42 <tusho> AnMaster: because they can't allow downloads easily
20:17:46 <tusho> they have to go through barriers
20:17:51 <tusho> to stay legal (if that site even is legal)
20:17:54 <tusho> (if it's not, then meh)
20:17:58 <tusho> (a web interface is convenient)
20:18:16 <tusho> but legality requires putting up Big Pointless Barriers
20:20:27 <AnMaster> http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/
20:20:55 <augur> arrakis is in estonia?
20:21:04 <tusho> AnMaster: that's not the point
20:21:23 <tusho> legal content distributors, by law, are mostly only allowed to be legal by the bigcorps if they put up some barriers to download
20:21:23 <augur> arrakis is a planet
20:21:26 <AnMaster> augur, I just checked the homepage url of the ebuild
20:21:32 <tusho> so that Average Joe or Slightly More Than Average Joe can't download them
20:21:35 <augur> way to show your scifi ignorane
20:22:31 <augur> BUT I STILL KNOW WHAT ARRAKIS IS
20:22:40 <augur> because im not LAME like YOU
20:24:34 <tusho> hi deewiant, you're yellow
20:24:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is TURT hard to implement?
20:25:01 <AnMaster> your code seems rather complex
20:25:05 <Deewiant> you might have to think about it a bit though
20:25:51 <Deewiant> but yeah, because there's the thing about when to draw and when not to
20:26:12 <Deewiant> can't remember all the commands but I remember getting something wrong a few times :-P
20:26:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does mycology test it well or?
20:26:43 <AnMaster> well what does test it well then?
20:27:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you got to have wrote your own test programs?
20:27:04 <Deewiant> haven't run into any TURT programs :-P
20:27:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well how do you know you got them wrong then?
20:27:24 <Deewiant> trust me, it was hard enough to finish that ;-)
20:27:43 <Deewiant> I can reason about programs without having to run them :-P
20:27:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well what about that TURT quine?
20:28:20 <Deewiant> news to me, or I've forgotten it
20:28:33 <tusho> http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/tquine.php
20:28:54 <tusho> that domain is available at http://www.phlamethrower.co.uk/
20:29:12 <Deewiant> and the thing with befunge programs on the net is that you have to read them through and think about it to know whether it's correct, you can't trust implementations :-P
20:29:22 <tusho> {# Wondering what the deal is with the domain name? Head over to my befunge pages to find out.}
20:29:32 <tusho> is on the crazy one
20:29:41 <tusho> and 'Out of cheese?', linking to phlamethrower on the crzy one,
20:29:47 <tusho> changes to 'Got egnufeB?'
20:29:49 <tusho> linking to the crazy one
20:30:05 <AnMaster> tusho, why "out of cheese" though
20:34:07 <tusho> cool, my stylesheet fits in ten lines
20:34:56 <Deewiant> you ran it through CSSTidy? :-P
20:35:32 <Deewiant> ah no, that puts everything on one line
20:37:23 <tusho> Deewiant: well, a tidier
20:37:26 <tusho> but it's still pretty readable
20:37:32 <tusho> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1058380
20:38:37 <tusho> Deewiant: i'd organize it a bit different
20:38:40 <Deewiant> actually I think CSSTidy is fairly configurable, that's just max compression
20:38:40 <tusho> but that's pretty nice
20:39:16 <Deewiant> and well, that can't be compressed any more without removing a few spaces and line breaks :-)
20:39:40 <tusho> Deewiant: yes, I was commenting rather on its simplicity
20:39:47 <tusho> as it's still readable like that
21:00:07 <SimonRC> also, oerjan made me start reading another webcomic, damn him
21:04:27 -!- tusho has set topic: THISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICDONOTREADTHESIGNONTHEBUSTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLIC.
21:05:21 -!- SimonRC has set topic: NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP.
21:05:36 <SimonRC> in honour of an old ELER strip
21:05:41 -!- tusho has set topic: overflowdisabledreadaboutitsothatitwillbeacyclicloop.
21:05:47 <tusho> SimonRC: ha, i thought of that strip
21:05:51 <tusho> then i was like 'nahh.. nobody reads eler'
21:06:11 <tusho> lord, it still hasn't been updated
21:06:31 <SimonRC> also, I found the world's best communication protocol: the port jump
21:06:59 <SimonRC> read word from memory-mapped port; don't increment IP, execute, repeat
21:08:35 <SimonRC> SEAforth chips have this capability
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21:12:39 <tusho> but isn't that a bit insecure
21:13:20 <SimonRC> you may as well worry about your RAM comspiring against your processor
21:13:27 <tusho> i have nightmares about it
21:19:27 <SimonRC> even better, the code for "n times: [ read port, write port ]" fits in one instruction word
21:19:48 <tusho> SimonRC: kigforth goes how
21:20:44 <SimonRC> tusho: haven't touched it for months
21:21:12 <SimonRC> (... such techniques are used to initially load the programs into the 24 processors)
21:21:17 <tusho> SimonRC: you should
21:27:54 <SimonRC> whoa, that chip I was talking about...
21:28:09 <SimonRC> all 24 processors fit into an 8*8mm chip
21:29:08 <SimonRC> Alas they have so little memory
21:30:20 <tusho> SimonRC: i wonder what a decent functional-ly forth with some oop stuff would look like
21:30:24 <tusho> either lovely or horrible i guess
21:31:05 <SimonRC> they have irc on this net at #concatenative
21:31:21 <tusho> i know about factor
21:31:25 <tusho> but it's kind of not what I was thinking of
21:32:29 <SimonRC> Forth tries to be close to the machine and powerful rather than abstract and powerful.
21:33:20 <tusho> i'm thinking kind of like forth blended with joy
21:33:26 <tusho> with an angle neither have -
21:33:33 <tusho> _practical_ abstractions
21:33:39 <tusho> e.g. some elements of oop
21:36:01 * tusho writes an example of some sort
21:40:37 <tusho> SimonRC: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1058441
21:40:47 <tusho> the interesting thing there is that it's basically as syntaxless as forth. {...} is a lambda
21:41:23 <tusho> AnMaster: just invented it
21:41:39 <AnMaster> tusho, don't get the : double ... line though
21:41:46 <tusho> AnMaster: function definition
21:42:04 <tusho> it's a concatenative (aka stack based) languages
21:42:07 <AnMaster> tusho, what does that function do?
21:42:10 <tusho> so { 2 * } doubles
21:42:27 <tusho> it is remarkably readable for a concatenative language though :-P
21:42:35 <tusho> AnMaster: that's the definer.
21:42:48 <AnMaster> I would call it object orientated
21:43:04 <tusho> AnMaster: but that's not actually integral to the language
21:43:08 <tusho> it could be implemented as a library
21:43:12 <tusho> and probably would be
21:44:33 <tusho> AnMaster: i just invented it right now to show that example to SimonRC
21:44:38 <tusho> so you can probably guess that it's unnamed
21:45:11 <tusho> i would anyway, if only to see you maybe write a program in something that isn't c or bash :)
21:45:34 <AnMaster> tusho, I have coded in pascal and apple script before
21:45:47 <SimonRC> tusho: do you know how Forth programs are compiled?
21:45:55 <tusho> i've read jonesforth a few times
21:46:35 <tusho> SimonRC: do you like my little language?
21:46:40 <tusho> in it, class: etc are just words, of course
21:46:41 <SimonRC> alas, I get DNS errors for pastebin.ca
21:46:47 <tusho> i'll paste elsewhere
21:47:00 <tusho> http://rafb.net/p/0V40Bd52.txt
21:47:23 <AnMaster> tusho, well what do you think of C#, Pascal (Delphi style) and apple script
21:47:41 <tusho> c# has some nice functional things, better than java certainly
21:47:48 <tusho> pascal, well, it's alright :) tex and all
21:48:00 <tusho> apple script, I Can't Believe It's Not English! Wait yes I can
21:50:35 <SimonRC> personally, I would extends using this syntax:
21:51:08 <SimonRC> things with no superclass just use 0 or object as the parent
21:51:22 <tusho> SimonRC: my way allows for MI, though :-P
21:51:26 <tusho> anyway, if you don't like it
21:51:28 <tusho> write your own oop lib
21:51:35 <tusho> those features are totally orthogonal to the language
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21:51:39 <tusho> not built in at all
21:51:51 <SimonRC> I have seen simple OO for forth done in literally 1 screen of code
21:52:26 <tusho> SimonRC: yes, but my language is different in paradigm :)
21:52:35 <tusho> there is one thing I can't figure out though, how to use methods and functions named the same
21:52:43 <tusho> if I want a function named 'foo' but I have a method named foo
21:52:44 <SimonRC> my language is a paradigm too!
21:53:02 <tusho> and the instance is on the class wth the method named foo
21:53:26 <SimonRC> surely classes should be words that leave some speical address on the stack
21:53:45 <SimonRC> and anything that consumes a class consumes the speciall address of the class from the stack?
21:53:57 <tusho> SimonRC: You are thinking too low-level. :-P
21:54:15 <tusho> my language isn't very forthy
22:00:37 <tusho> SimonRC: how minimal do you think I can make my bootstrap language?
22:00:45 <tusho> hopefully, I want to make it like the lambda calculus of functional concatenative langs
22:02:47 <SimonRC> you could make lambda-abstractions and application the primitives?
22:03:01 <SimonRC> using de bruijn indexes of course
22:03:07 <tusho> SimonRC: hmm, example?
22:03:29 <SimonRC> actually, I am not quite sure how that would work
22:04:20 <SimonRC> the most primitive bootstrapping you could get away with is a "read word into memory" and an "execute"
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23:17:14 <GregorR> 26 hours on planes and in airports = ROCK ON
23:19:54 <GregorR> 26 hours on planes and in airports AFTER being awake for 24 hours = ROCK ON++
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23:47:46 <tusho> cctoide: GregorR: Socks!
23:59:23 <tusho> cctoide: GregorR: 'SOCK EMPORIUM'
00:04:32 <tusho> AnMaster: it's sunday
00:04:46 <tusho> ais isn't always here on sunday
00:04:52 <tusho> and when he is he leaves at 7pm gmt
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11:34:21 <AnMaster> from CCBI:MAX = 16383_9999 - PADDING
11:46:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also line 98 of turt.d contains an error, it should say "p.y" not "p.x"
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12:07:36 <olsner> I believe I've added myself to the esolang frappr map now
12:20:09 <Slereah> Is it an article of faith?
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12:27:08 <olsner> oklopol: WHAT DO YOU WANT?
12:27:08 <cctoide> Sler, when does your bam run out
12:49:25 <Slereah> It lasts ten days and a third.
12:49:37 <Slereah> And I think it was made on the 24th.
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14:05:38 <AnMaster> http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/TURT.html
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14:34:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ccbi and cfunge both fails on the TURT quine
14:35:01 <AnMaster> <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="tiny" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" viewBox="-163839.0999 -163839.0999 327679.0998 327679.0998">
14:35:03 <Deewiant> and is it because the quine is wrong or because the implementation is wrong :-)
14:35:09 <AnMaster> <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="tiny" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" viewBox="-0.0011 -0.0251 0.0022 0.0502">
14:35:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however I do know there is a bug in ccbi's TURT
14:35:34 <Deewiant> it's just so you can write 1000000 as 10_000_000
14:35:38 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Deewiant, also line 98 of turt.d contains an error, it should say "p.y" not "p.x"
14:36:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for mycology the generated file looks exactly the same for ccbi and cfunge
14:36:26 <AnMaster> as I just converted your code to C
14:39:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you feel like debugging ccbi for that line?
14:40:16 <AnMaster> also mine is a direct translation of your program to C so why differen't result
14:40:44 <Deewiant> obvious, your translation is wrong :-P
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14:43:21 <Deewiant> but hmm, that's a pretty weird viewbox
14:44:48 <Deewiant> well, whatever, just figure it out and tell me later :-P
14:45:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't think I want to
14:45:29 <AnMaster> I mean it is unreadable, *invents doxygen for befunge*
14:46:11 <AnMaster> best done in befunge converted to trefunge, simply place comments as going outwards from the instruction in question!
14:46:33 <Deewiant> yes, and have fun reading it with a text editor :-)
14:51:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, line 352 of turt.d must be wrong
14:52:00 <AnMaster> it should be file.output.write(NewlineString~\t);
14:52:11 <AnMaster> that is removing the last "~NewlineString"
14:53:04 <AnMaster> the tab should it seems be indention of next line
14:53:20 <AnMaster> or should there be lines with just a tab on it?
14:53:38 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/NI1hWs64.html
14:54:07 <Deewiant> I don't have any input program with that big output :-)
14:54:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/tquine.bf
14:54:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and agree the output is wrong there?
14:55:51 <Deewiant> BTW, unrelated: if these are befunge-93 as they likely are, that may be a reason why it doesn't work
14:56:12 <AnMaster> befunge-93 didn't have that fingerprint
14:56:34 <AnMaster> befunge93 didn't have fingerprints even
14:57:17 <AnMaster> also it seems to be 30 lines long and 105 columns wide
14:57:29 <pikhq> http://wiki.osdev.org/DegenerateOS
14:57:36 <Deewiant> I was just looking at the file extension
14:57:39 * pikhq wants to hand-toggle a bootup sequence now
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15:05:44 <Deewiant> hmm, I edited the .svg file a bit and opened it in firefox and now I think it's looping infinitely :-/
15:06:02 <ais523> Deewiant: are you trying to demonstrate SVG is Turing-complete?
15:06:20 <Deewiant> no, I just wanted to see the output of the TURT quine
15:06:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you fix your indention bug
15:06:47 <ais523> I think SVG is Turing-complete, but possibly you need to embed JS in it to manage that
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15:07:08 <Deewiant> it's infinite-loop-complete apparently
15:07:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the cfunge one simply crashes inkscape, while the ccbi ones locks it up
15:07:49 <ais523> possibly ODF is too, I managed to create a .odf file once that crashed both OpenOffice.org and AbiWord
15:07:57 <ais523> as in, both of them hung and wouldn't respond
15:07:59 <Deewiant> removing the <path> I get a lot of circles
15:08:17 <ais523> AnMaster: no, because I have no clue what's going on
15:08:32 <AnMaster> ais523, send the file and say "this locks it up"?
15:08:33 <ais523> probably it specified a computation which was far to complex for anything to manage in a reasonable length of time
15:08:37 <ais523> so they weren't hung, just computing
15:08:48 <ais523> and I'll have to find the file
15:08:48 <ais523> I can't remember what's in it
15:08:50 <ais523> or how I made it in the first place
15:08:58 <Deewiant> so either these programs can't handle those huge paths (most likely) or there's something weird there
15:09:01 <ais523> ah, I think it may have been the C-INTERCAL manual, automatically translated from DocBook
15:09:04 <Deewiant> because it shouldn't loop infinitely
15:09:56 <Deewiant> I think the path is just too long
15:10:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does the dots correspond to http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/tqout.gif in any way?
15:10:37 <Deewiant> looked like diagonal lines going from top left to bottom right
15:10:41 <Deewiant> with varying spacing between the dots
15:10:44 <Deewiant> but even spacing between the lines
15:11:18 <ais523> does Mycology test TURT?
15:11:29 <ais523> and, for that matter, are you going to add a test for IFFI?
15:11:41 <Deewiant> not enough to see if it actually works in any real-life situation
15:11:50 <Deewiant> (for Fungey values of "real-life")
15:11:55 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I suppose so
15:12:05 <ais523> but it would rely on having a particular INTERCAL program to cooperate with
15:12:21 <AnMaster> ais523, so you got to write that
15:12:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I can say I'm not going to :P
15:12:52 <ais523> AnMaster: I suppose it could mess around with o to create the INTERCAL program, then = to run ick and recompile the FFI, then finally run the result with =
15:13:06 <Deewiant> I don't use =, it's not portable
15:13:11 <AnMaster> ais523, you could just create a test suite
15:13:19 <ais523> yes, I suppose that would make more sense
15:13:26 <Deewiant> given that it's valid for = to run its input as perl, for instance
15:14:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I only expect one interpreter will implement IFFI ever: ais523
15:15:19 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I got good news: the fingerprint TURT kind of works
15:15:26 <AnMaster> no idea if it works for anything else
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15:16:45 <ais523_> [Mon Jun 30 2008] [15:14:29] <ais523> incidentally, I have made some progress
15:16:47 <ais523_> [Mon Jun 30 2008] [15:15:12] <ais523> so far, I've got enough of an FFI to run a Befunge program, then an INTERCAL program when IFFI's loaded, in that order
15:16:57 <ais523_> at least I've written enough to test it...
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15:18:11 <ais523> well, IFFI's there simply to add the combination instructions in a way Funge programs will understand
15:18:26 <ais523> although it's generic, so presumably it would be possible to, say, link to CLC-INTERCAL instead
15:18:29 <ais523> but I'm unlikely to code that
15:18:38 <ais523> a C-INTERCAL/CLC-INTERCAL ffi would be more likely
15:18:47 <ais523> but I have no idea how Perl responds to stupid stack tricks...
15:19:13 <ais523> either that, or it could just be done over TCP/IP
15:19:24 <ais523> I have to get round to writing a theft client for C-INTERCAL at some point
15:19:42 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the CLC-INTERCAL networking extension
15:19:48 <ais523> basically you can steal variables from other programs
15:19:51 <ais523> to transmit information
15:19:55 <ais523> it's a pull model rather than a push model
15:20:00 <ais523> and it works over TCP/IP
15:20:24 <ais523> you can even do things like steal filehandles to do a networked version of cat
15:20:36 <ais523> steal the other process's stdout, then write to it
15:22:39 <AnMaster> how can you send filehandles over tcp?
15:22:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well, you don't, there's a protocol that manages it all transparently
15:23:00 <ais523> setting up daemons at each end to forward information
15:23:03 <ais523> it's really quite impressive
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15:23:22 <ais523> but from the user's point of view, it's all seamless
15:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, odd macros redefining fputs?
15:24:14 <ais523> AnMaster: the Perl program uses a completely abstracted I/O system
15:24:41 <ais523> for C-INTERCAL, I'd probably just redefine WRITE IN and READ OUT and all that to work correctly in the abstracted version
15:24:49 <ais523> so filehandle theft wouldn't extend to C or Befunge programs
15:25:00 <ais523> in fact, I'd probably write it in C as an expansion library
15:25:15 <AnMaster> better than writing it in intercal
15:25:32 <AnMaster> does C-INTERCAL have network support?
15:25:49 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL does, so I was just going to copy it as usual
15:25:51 <AnMaster> well cfunge will have in future with SOCK fingerprint
15:26:08 <AnMaster> but TURT will take some time to get correct
15:26:23 <ais523> there's been huge amounts of feature smugglign between the two leading implementations of INTERCAL
15:26:31 <ais523> but IMO that isn't a problem as it makes them more compatible with each other
15:29:30 <AnMaster> ais523, oh, so CLC also steal from C-INTERCAL?
15:29:51 <ais523> like the non-English character setes
15:30:00 <ais523> its signature features are mostly new
15:30:07 <ais523> oh, it stole TriINTERCAL too
15:30:08 <oerjan> once there are enough features in both, you can start aiming for an ISO standard
15:31:08 * oerjan wonders if ISO does April Fool jokes like RFCs do
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15:33:26 <oerjan> are the C- and CLC- implementations very similar under the hood?
15:33:40 <ais523> no, they're more or less as different as possible
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16:06:02 <ais523> ah, I was having some issues with setting up Evolution
16:06:06 <ais523> and ended up rebooting
16:06:11 <ais523> because I was confused and everything kept crashing
16:06:15 <ais523> it's OK now, though, I hope
16:08:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does valgrind work on D?
16:08:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect your program may have some issues, at least your loop over the paths caused a valgrind error when translated
16:08:33 <Deewiant> not sure if it agrees with DMD
16:08:58 <AnMaster> the way I would loop over a linked link
16:10:21 <Deewiant> how could it possibly not work :-)
16:10:58 <ais523> it's just an interesting concept
16:11:00 <pikhq> Deewiant: If it doesn't agree with DMD, it *should* agree with GDC.
16:11:00 <Deewiant> and when it comes to valgrind errors I'm sceptical... D initializes everything by default so hitting uninitialized memory is something one has to do manually :-P
16:11:09 <Deewiant> pikhq: yes, and that it might.
16:11:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems like gcc generates code that try to access some memory at the 0x0 at the end of the list
16:11:44 <Deewiant> might be that your translation was mucked up again
16:12:01 <AnMaster> maybe, I guess for() have different syntax in D?
16:12:03 <Deewiant> for (stuff; p; stuff) -> p is not null in the loop.
16:12:12 <Deewiant> but possibly ./-> confusion or something.
16:12:47 <AnMaster> blergh updating imagemagick means rebuilding a lot of stuff
16:12:56 <AnMaster> broken /usr/lib/xine/plugins/1.20/xineplug_decode_image.so (requires libMagick.so.10 libWand.so.10)
16:12:56 <AnMaster> broken /usr/lib64/kde3/karbon.so (requires libMagick.so.10 libWand.so.10)
16:12:57 <Deewiant> s/linked link/linked list/ btw
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16:14:15 <tusho> no, I certainly didn't
16:14:17 <tusho> I said hi to ais523
16:14:21 <tusho> 2 seconds later he said hi back
16:14:23 <tusho> then I said mwahahahha
16:14:38 <tusho> AnMaster: you're wrong.
16:14:43 <Deewiant> 2008-06-30 18:13:29 ( ais523) hi tusho
16:14:43 <tusho> not even network lag could delay it that much
16:14:43 <Deewiant> 2008-06-30 18:13:49 ( tusho) hi ais523
16:14:51 <tusho> lag for 20 seconds?
16:14:53 <tusho> i find that hard to believe
16:15:04 <ais523> tusho: I won at my end
16:15:05 <tusho> it said it had joined #esoteric
16:15:13 <Deewiant> 2008-06-30 18:13:22 --> tusho (n=tusho@91.105.117.61) has joined #esoteric
16:15:17 <ais523> and others here seem to agree with me
16:15:19 <AnMaster> tusho, yes then it sends WHO and such
16:15:33 <tusho> yes, I believe that it's like that on the network
16:15:37 <tusho> it's about personal reflex time
16:15:39 <tusho> not the whims of our clients
16:15:48 <tusho> the logs have been wrong before, e.g. last time
16:16:01 <tusho> AnMaster: winning/losing is not determined by client lag
16:16:05 <tusho> it's determined by who hits enter first
16:16:11 <ais523> 08:13:29 <ais523> hi tusho
16:16:11 <ais523> 08:13:49 <tusho> hi ais523
16:16:13 <AnMaster> tusho, well you could be lying for all we know
16:16:24 <tusho> AnMaster: thankfully the two people playing the game prefer to win honestly
16:16:36 <tusho> i am pretty sure I won this one I had the line ready and as soon as it lighted up I hit enter
16:16:56 <tusho> much quicker than ais523's reflexes could make him type 'hi tusho', I'd bet, but it's possible
16:17:06 <AnMaster> tusho, well sorry but check clog
16:17:19 <tusho> AnMaster: I did. What the server sees is irrelevant.
16:17:26 <tusho> Whoever hits enter first on their respective clients wins.
16:17:30 <AnMaster> well everyone else saw this too
16:17:40 <tusho> AnMaster: IT DOES NOT MATTER WHEN IT WENT OVER THE NETWORK
16:17:47 <tusho> It only matters when here, I, physically, hit enter.
16:17:49 <AnMaster> ais523, do you agree with tusho+
16:17:56 <tusho> It is a game of reflexes
16:17:59 <tusho> not our client's on-connect whims
16:18:37 <ais523> well, quite possibly I won on enter too
16:18:48 <ais523> what timestamp does tusho's client show tusho as having submitted?
16:19:22 <tusho> dunno if it logs seconds
16:19:24 <tusho> I'll check in the xml logs
16:19:26 <tusho> instead of the client display
16:19:38 <tusho> it doesn't log by default
16:19:50 <tusho> i just reinstalled colloquy recently you see
16:19:57 <AnMaster> consider yourself looser then?
16:20:07 <tusho> i can assert that it was about 0.1 seconds, max, after my client reported me as having joined, that I hit enter
16:20:21 <tusho> i am guessing that ais523 can't focus the input, type 'hi tusho' and hit enter quicker than that
16:20:42 <ais523> tusho: well, it's quite possible that my client told me you'd joined before yours did
16:20:47 <ais523> and I already had the input focused
16:21:16 <tusho> i don't think colloquy is that broken
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16:21:27 <ais523> maybe it doesn't tell you you've joined until the WHO response comes back
16:21:38 <tusho> otherwise how can we explain the 20 second lag
16:21:38 <AnMaster> ais523, that would indeed make sense
16:21:41 <ais523> so you end up in a channel, but there isn't a list of who's in it?
16:21:45 <tusho> also, my connects would be a lot slower
16:21:52 <tusho> it gradually marks users as away
16:21:55 <tusho> if you watch the user list on join
16:22:02 <ais523> tusho: WHO doesn't list away
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16:22:41 <ais523> ah, yes, it does list away
16:23:04 <ais523> so where does the client get the name list from before it gradually marks away?
16:23:15 <ais523> ah, there's an abbreviated name list on-join, isn't there
16:23:17 <AnMaster> ais523, server sends NAME on join iirc
16:23:39 <AnMaster> which may or may not also contain hostmask
16:24:01 <AnMaster> depending on if both client and server suppors UHNAMES
16:24:20 <AnMaster> and client enabled it using PROTOCTL or CAP
16:25:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, going to update mycology results page?
16:25:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I want you to add cfunge there :P
16:36:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for cfunge this needs to be done on a POSIX platform
16:36:56 <Deewiant> I'll run it under cygwin and if it doesn't work that's your problem ;-P
16:37:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it will run on real POSIX
16:37:25 <AnMaster> but last version will refuse to compile if __WIN32__ is defined
16:37:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have linux too iirc?
16:37:57 <tusho> AnMaster: not making your program work on the OS the tester uses or the posix emulation layer of the OS he uses is a great way to convince him to test it
16:38:05 <Deewiant> sure, but I can't be bothered to boot my laptop ;-)
16:38:05 <tusho> if you won't get it working why should he?
16:38:16 <AnMaster> tusho, I got no idea if it will work under cygwin
16:38:29 <AnMaster> it doesn't work in native win32 mode
16:38:37 <AnMaster> it does pass on true linux and true freebsd I know
16:38:53 <Deewiant> if your code is full of _posix_standard2008_special_function_for_superfast_io calls then it might not work :-P
16:39:32 <tusho> Deewiant: __posix_standard_2074->(*ctx)->_(ptr+4,*(ptr/7), fd, NULL, NULL, NULL, NULL, 1);
16:40:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why #ifdef the POSIX bits if the rest of the code isn't standard C anyway?
16:40:01 <AnMaster> #if defined(_POSIX_ADVISORY_INFO) && (_POSIX_ADVISORY_INFO > 0)
16:40:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because FreeBSD doesn't have them all
16:40:28 <AnMaster> THEY are optional parts of POSIX
16:40:41 <Deewiant> what required parts of POSIX do you then use?
16:41:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well environ, fork(), exec()
16:41:29 <AnMaster> that should work under cygwin if cmake does
16:42:07 <Deewiant> I'd be very surprised to find it doesn't
16:42:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it will need some defines as -D to build it
16:42:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you probably want -DUSE32 -DCONCURRENT_FUNGE -DNDEBUG
16:43:11 <AnMaster> I'm about to do another pre-release
16:43:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, was just about to make a pre-release
16:44:00 <Deewiant> but anyhoo, I'll do the updating "soon"
16:52:27 <tusho> 03:34:21 <AnMaster> from CCBI:MAX = 16383_9999 - PADDING
16:52:27 <tusho> 03:34:25 <AnMaster> what does the _ do?
16:52:32 <tusho> it's just a way to seperate long numbers
16:52:47 <AnMaster> tusho, Deewiant already answered
16:53:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, writing changelog atm
16:53:17 <tusho> AnMaster: readable numbers is not masochistic enough for c
16:53:43 <ais523> #define NUMBERSPLICE(a,b) a##b
16:54:02 * ais523 wonders if that works, or if ## doesn't work like that
16:54:18 <Deewiant> I think they have to be identifiers
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17:03:18 <AnMaster> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=221310&package_id=267309&release_id=610369
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17:07:38 <tusho> we don't want your kind in here
17:12:01 <tusho> ais523: think you're the only person I haven't asked.
17:12:02 <tusho> http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08266/picture5214.png
17:12:11 <tusho> ignore the strange filler text.
17:12:34 <tusho> better than loremipsum
17:12:53 <tusho> lorem ipsum doesn't follow the structure of english text AnMaster
17:12:54 <ais523> tusho: that timed out when I tried to load it
17:13:05 <tusho> it's not a good way to test the flow of a design
17:13:08 <tusho> ais523: weird, try again
17:14:03 <ais523> the one thing that concerns me is that I find it slightly hard to see the boundary between posts
17:14:12 <ais523> maybe it should have more whitespace, or an <hr>, or something
17:14:49 <tusho> ais523: i'm deliberately avoiding <hr>-style markers, I'm trying to do it via typography and whitespace
17:14:52 <tusho> a bit more whitespace maybe
17:14:55 <tusho> but you won't actually read a post there
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17:15:00 <tusho> it's just a preview, as the 'read more' shows
17:15:05 <tusho> and surely the big title seperates it?
17:15:16 <tusho> i mean, it's going to be packing 5-10 posts on that page
17:15:24 * Sgeo can't seem to properly post to the a-b
17:15:37 <ais523> tusho: hmm... it's probably just me
17:15:53 <tusho> ais523: really, I expect traffic to go one of two ways:
17:16:18 <tusho> reddit/similar -> post -> clicks link to homepage because they're interested -> maybe sees an interesting post -> clicks read more, reads it
17:16:30 <tusho> homepage -> newest post -> read (for people who follow it)
17:16:43 <tusho> but if you think it needs more space I can do that
17:16:50 <ais523> nah, leave it as it is
17:17:09 <tusho> i also removed the subtitles
17:17:15 <tusho> in the current revision
17:17:37 <tusho> oh, and it's valid HTML5 (yes, 5. early adopter FTW) with no <div>,<span>,id="",class=""
17:17:55 <tusho> (because they're unneeded - <article>, <header> etc. replace them and have real semantic meaning to boot)
17:18:14 <Deewiant> if only HTML5 had the href on every element like XHTML2 is to have
17:18:39 <tusho> they said why they don't do it
17:19:12 <tusho> it doesn't make sense for every element (form inputs etc), it's redundant to an inner <a> (and isn't worth the few less keystrokes), and browser makers said it'd be _really, really damn hard_ to do with their current code
17:19:17 <tusho> all in all not worth it
17:19:47 <tusho> (ais523: also, the css is 11 lines when compacted a little.)
17:19:49 <Deewiant> it's not always redundant to an inner <a>, you also need some CSS in some cases
17:20:06 <Deewiant> e.g. <li><a href="foo">bar</a></li>
17:20:08 <tusho> (though I don't style lists, blockquotes etc yet, I'll do that when I need them)
17:20:15 <Deewiant> the a encompasses only the text, not the whole list element
17:20:21 <tusho> Deewiant: even so, it overwhelmingly commonly is redundant
17:20:35 <Deewiant> I just think it's more semantic to not have an <a>
17:21:20 <ais523> oh, happy Windows XP end-of-line day, everyone!
17:22:06 <Deewiant> it is still possible to obtain Windows XP by purchasing Vista Ultimate or Vista Business and then downgrading to Windows XP.
17:22:17 <Deewiant> Sales of Windows XP ceased on June 30, 2008
17:22:51 <tusho> ais523: lolololololol
17:22:56 <tusho> microsoft just killed itself a bit more
17:23:16 <tusho> they were so close to actually getting better
17:23:16 <AnMaster> because xp was good compared to vista
17:23:18 <tusho> and they nose-dived instead
17:23:41 <tusho> developers developers developers developers.
17:23:49 <tusho> it sounds almost like an obituary now
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18:44:36 <tusho> ah I found my compacted css
18:44:38 <tusho> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1058380
19:01:56 <ais523> ah, I found one bug that was causing IFFI to not work
19:02:00 <ais523> although there may be others
19:02:11 <ais523> it was a weird interaction of recursion and global variables
19:02:20 <ais523> when I wrote that bit of code, I didn't expect it to be used recursively
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19:16:20 <ais523> AnMaster: how do I turn trace-mode on in cfunge, internally?
19:16:25 <ais523> as in, by manipulating the values of variables
19:16:28 <ais523> rather than with command line args
19:18:49 <AnMaster> ais523, which is the same way that main.c do it when it parses command line arguments ;P
19:19:20 <ais523> /// Out of order to make default initialise to 0.
19:19:20 <ais523> /// (A few bytes smaller binary that way, The standard one should always be 0)
19:19:35 <ais523> sorry, I can understand you optimising for speed, but binary size?
19:19:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that too, just to irritate everyone
19:20:05 <ais523> there is such an incongruity when C-INTERCAL and cfunge are linked together...
19:20:10 <ais523> at least they both share the same naming scheme
19:20:31 <tusho> AnMaster: you know, I think doing so many things just to irritate people is slightly disturbed
19:20:35 <AnMaster> also what do you mean with same naming scheme?
19:20:40 <ais523> AnMaster: ridiculously optimised on one hand vs. inherently slow on the other
19:20:58 <ais523> I mean, C-INTERCAL is optimised too, to some extent, but INTERCAL suffers from computational class problems
19:21:05 <ais523> e.g. computed COME FROM
19:21:43 <ais523> incidentally, I'm pretty proud of the C-INTERCAL optimiser; me and one other person are working on it, and it can often optimise INTERCAL expressions into the C they were generated from in the first place
19:22:01 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway yes cfunge is insane in parts
19:22:05 <ais523> the debugger even has an explain-this-expression tool
19:22:32 <ais523> what should I set the trace level to, by the way?
19:22:36 <AnMaster> ais523, consider I spent about half a day reorganizing structs to avoid holes on 64-bit and 32-bit as much as possible :P
19:22:48 <AnMaster> ais523, well depends on how much you want
19:22:49 <ais523> the situation I have is that the main loop is looping, but the program isn't doing anything and it ought to and I don't know wh
19:23:04 <AnMaster> ais523, higher level = more tracing
19:23:11 <ais523> is 9 the highest level?
19:23:30 <tusho> <AnMaster> ais523, anyway yes cfunge is insane in parts
19:23:36 <ais523> and what level should I use to see commands and stack as they execute
19:23:45 <ais523> tusho: cfunge is saner than glue.c99
19:23:52 <AnMaster> ais523, hm trace print each instruction as it is executed
19:23:55 <ais523> the file I'm writing which is half cfunge and half C-INTERCAL
19:24:16 <ais523> ok, but I thought that if trace levels went up to 9 displaying stack was quite likely
19:24:16 <tusho> ais523: well, that's because you have to work around AnMaster's mental disorder of optimization :-P
19:24:31 <ais523> here, I'll paste glue.c99 as it is at the moment
19:24:36 <ais523> so you can see it in all its glory
19:24:44 <AnMaster> does not compute, debug info missing due to optimizing
19:25:06 <jamesstanley> Can anyone explain how I would implement something like pointers in Brainfuck? For example, say a cell holds the value 10. How would I make the pointer move 10 places?
19:25:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have tracing of current stack atm, should be simple to implement
19:25:13 <tusho> jamesstanley: i don't think you can
19:25:16 <tusho> 'cause you have to move back
19:25:18 <tusho> so you need infinite counters
19:25:21 <tusho> and even then I doubt it'd work
19:25:27 <tusho> jamesstanley: however
19:25:36 <tusho> but you have to modify the space you move over
19:25:43 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1059256
19:25:46 <tusho> ENTRY 1 ENTRY 1 ENTRY 1 ... LASTENTRY 0
19:25:56 <tusho> then you use a quick loop over going two elements at a time
19:26:10 <ais523> generally speaking you make every second (or third, or whatever) cell hold a 0
19:26:14 <ais523> then you know you can clobber it safely
19:26:24 <tusho> #ifdef CONCURRENT_FUNGE
19:26:24 <tusho> #error The C-INTERCAL/cfunge external calls interface cannot be used concurrently
19:26:27 <ais523> it's quite hard to do things efficiently without temporaries
19:26:37 <ais523> AnMaster: copyright notice OK, by the way
19:26:50 <ais523> jamesstanley: oh, if you only have one array there's a trick you can use where you put a couple of zeros before it
19:27:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought they were a bit longer, with info how to contact GNU and such?
19:27:18 <ais523> and then move elements to the left as you scan through them and use the gaps for temporaries
19:27:22 <ais523> AnMaster: whoops, yes, I'll add that
19:27:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't like your indention style but ;P
19:27:49 <ais523> oh, and someone who knows Befunge, verify that I got that hello, world right please
19:27:58 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you say that ick already did the srandom stuff?
19:28:11 <ais523> AnMaster: I checked, sometimes it uses random and sometimes it uses rand
19:28:22 <ais523> anyway, this time it seeds exactly twice at the start of the program
19:29:21 <AnMaster> ais523, the tracing is done in the main loop, which could be a problem for you I guess
19:29:52 <ais523> because I'm replacing it
19:29:56 <ais523> it had to be in an ICK_EC_FUNC really
19:30:04 <ais523> which is like an ordinary function just more interesting
19:30:06 <AnMaster> ais523, well copy and paste some code then :7
19:30:36 <ais523> I really ought to merge the Befunge tracing with INTERCAL tracing, really
19:30:44 <ais523> I have +printflow as a trace option in INTERCAL programs already
19:30:45 <tusho> 'Interesting functions' sounds like a haskell thing
19:30:48 <ais523> I just need to make cfunge use it
19:30:52 <tusho> there should be a formal definition for what makes a function interesting
19:30:56 <tusho> (well, just mathematics when I think about it)
19:32:07 <ais523> tusho: well, from a programmer's point of view the definition of an ICK_EC_FUNC is "one where people can goto() into anywhere in the function from outside
19:32:18 <tusho> ais523: how does a macro do that?
19:32:28 <tusho> oh, does it require yield statements?
19:32:32 <tusho> lol@finite state machines
19:32:35 <ais523> tusho: basically there's a global which switches the function between two modes of operation
19:32:43 <ais523> one which acts as the target for gotos, with a protocol involved
19:32:48 <ais523> and the other which just runs the function
19:33:10 <tusho> ais523: can I see an expansion of an ICK_EC_FUNC?
19:33:15 <ais523> the entire body of the function is wrapped in an if()
19:33:16 <tusho> and the original source
19:33:26 <ais523> and sure, I'll paste glue.cio for you
19:33:33 <ais523> which is the expanded version
19:33:38 <ais523> but minus all the blank lines at the start
19:33:44 <ais523> and the preprocessor stuff
19:34:36 <ais523> tusho: actually, do you mind if I run it through indent first?
19:34:39 <ais523> it all comes out on the same line
19:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm adding that tracing now
19:35:49 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1059264
19:35:57 <ais523> that's the ICK_EC_FUNC at the end, in the .cio
19:36:08 <ais523> that is, once it's been preprocessed twice, once by gcc -E, once by ick itself
19:36:44 <ais523> oh, and the goto labels there are generated, not hardcoded
19:38:41 <tusho> ais523: ah, so ick does the transformation itself
19:38:58 <tusho> but ick actually mangles the function body
19:39:00 <tusho> OK, i understand now
19:39:01 <ais523> the cpp substitutes in most of the code
19:39:06 <ais523> including the bits in the body
19:39:22 <ais523> making all the gotos point to the right place and all the labels have unique names
19:42:12 <ais523> but yes, ick does mess with the C source quite a bit
19:45:06 <AnMaster> ais523, well it is done except it cases valgrind error
19:47:42 <ais523> augur: well, fffungi is making progress
19:47:57 <ais523> augur: Funge/INTERCAL ffi
19:49:01 <AnMaster> ais523, the new main loop will now print the 5 top elements on the stack when trace level is 8 or higher
19:49:07 <AnMaster> you could copy that to your code?
19:49:19 <ais523> yes, I could, probably
19:49:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I only did change for concurrent *fixes*
20:00:01 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
20:01:24 <ais523> I was reading something else before that
20:01:35 -!- Corun has joined.
20:05:57 <ais523> AnMaster: you probably want >=8 rather than >8 in your tracelevel setting
20:06:19 <AnMaster> ais523, ah I meant at 9 or above
20:07:12 <ais523> glue.c99:106: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘PrintStackTop’
20:07:21 <ais523> have you changed the list of include files for interpreter.c?
20:07:34 <ais523> hmm, no, it doesn't link
20:07:41 <ais523> is PrintStackTop a macro?
20:07:57 <ais523> I wonder why the link failed, then
20:08:10 <ais523> and stack.h is already included
20:08:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well does your stack.h have it?
20:08:18 <ais523> ah, that could be the issue
20:08:22 <AnMaster> maybe you did something with the update
20:08:33 <AnMaster> ais523, as I just added that function
20:08:53 <ais523> ick -begOUY stub.i *.c99 */*.c99 */*/*.c99 ../lib/*/*.c99
20:09:03 <ais523> just so I remember the command line
20:09:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well that could be the issue
20:09:06 <ais523> which is nontrivial at current
20:09:09 <ais523> and yes, I think it was
20:09:31 <AnMaster> ais523, set up a system of symlinks?
20:09:50 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, I'm keeping separate modified and unmodified source trees and copying the changes over
20:10:09 <AnMaster> ais523, you could use bzr to keep track of your own branch ;P
20:10:26 <AnMaster> this is distributed version control after all
20:10:55 <ais523> and renaming all the files in a repo is not a common thing to do anyway
20:11:11 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway if you build a debug build you get some more debugging from inside gdb: StackDump(stack *) and FungeSpaceDump()
20:11:34 <AnMaster> ais523, that was how I did debugging mostly
20:11:59 <ais523> ah, the error seems to be that the IP never moves for some reason
20:12:03 <AnMaster> ais523, also see etc/example.gdbinit in cfunge top dir
20:12:28 <AnMaster> ais523, care to pastebin the current code and I will try to read it
20:12:46 <ais523> it's the same as what I've already pastebinned apart from turning on tracing
20:13:17 <ais523> do I need to paste again, or will the previous paste do?
20:14:37 <AnMaster> ais523, can you use gdb or something, there are some stuff I want you to run in it just *after* ExecuteInstruction()
20:15:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I'll try to load it in gdb, luckily it reaches that point before it gets confused
20:16:10 <ais523> ok, stepping to the right point now
20:16:22 <AnMaster> I guess breakpoint doesn't work heh
20:16:57 <ais523> let me step past the ipForward and see if its location changes
20:18:06 <ais523> apparently not, that's strange
20:18:11 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway yes what is it after and before ipForward
20:18:50 <ais523> 1: IP->position = {x = 0, y = 0}
20:18:54 <ais523> 1: IP->position = {x = 0, y = 0}
20:18:54 <ais523> 98 while(!ick_iffi_breakloop)
20:18:55 <ais523> 1: IP->position = {x = 0, y = 0}
20:19:10 <ais523> presumably the error's in ipForward somehow
20:19:21 <AnMaster> ip->position.x += ip->delta.x * steps;
20:19:21 <ais523> I'll try stepping into it
20:19:21 <AnMaster> ip->position.y += ip->delta.y * steps;
20:19:26 <AnMaster> really can't see how that can go wrong
20:19:41 <AnMaster> ais523, a sec *need to figure out how to correctly do this call*
20:20:06 <AnMaster> ais523, step into some function that fetches instruction from funge space
20:20:11 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, I see what's happening
20:20:15 <ais523> it does move inside ipForward
20:20:23 <AnMaster> print fspace->bottomRightCorner
20:20:32 <ais523> but then fungeSpaceWrap screws up
20:20:33 <AnMaster> I suspect the wrapping is messed up by something
20:20:46 <ais523> print fspace->bottomRightCorner
20:21:08 <ais523> presumably your load-from-string gets it wrong
20:21:17 <ais523> after all, you said it was untested
20:21:51 * AnMaster scratches head while reading it
20:22:28 <AnMaster> ais523, the cheap way around would be to change FungeSpaceSetNoBoundUpdate to FungeSpaceSet but that would be less performant when loading the program ;P
20:22:59 <AnMaster> ais523, but I think that is what I will do anyway
20:25:30 <AnMaster> ais523, pushing a new revision that uses FungeSpaceSet() instead of trying to do itself
20:26:04 <AnMaster> ais523, NOT TESTED except that it compiles
20:35:52 <ais523> AnMaster: just about to test now
20:38:25 <jamesstanley> In brainloller/copter does execution start at pixel 0,0?
20:38:50 <ais523> jamesstanley: yes, I think
20:38:55 <ais523> AnMaster: s/also/almost/
20:38:59 <ais523> it's clipping off the last character
20:39:07 <ais523> at least, that's how it's acting
20:39:13 <ais523> I get an infinite loop of "Hello, world!2
20:39:16 <jamesstanley> And also, when execution reaches the edge of the image, what happens?
20:39:27 <jamesstanley> Or is this undefined and I should explicitly specify an IP rotate?
20:40:03 <ais523> generally if the spec isn't the wiki page it's linked from it
20:40:20 <AnMaster> ais523, and I can't explain it
20:40:30 <ais523> jamesstanley: ah, it's defined by a reference interp
20:40:30 * AnMaster writes some custom code to debug this
20:40:37 <ais523> let me try to figure out what it's doing at that point
20:40:46 <ais523> AnMaster: let me just check to make sure I didn't forget the @
20:40:50 <jamesstanley> You needn't bother if you don't want to ais523
20:40:57 <jamesstanley> I can read it myself now I know where to look. Thanks!
20:41:11 <ais523> -When the IP reaches the edge of the PNG image and goes outside, the program will stop (END).
20:41:15 <AnMaster> jamesstanley, there are specs for funge
20:41:17 <ais523> it's in a comment in the reference INTERP
20:41:26 <ais523> AnMaster: he's referring to brainloller
20:41:37 <ais523> and why did I write INTERP in allcaps?
20:41:51 <jamesstanley> I am going to add these two points to the wiki page. Thanks for your help.
20:43:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I get this bug too and can't explain it *debugs*
20:44:40 <oklopol> ais523: H(intercal,interp) = 5
20:44:59 <ais523> oklopol: an interesting but slightly pointless observation
20:45:17 <oklopol> ais523: and why did I write INTERP in allcaps? <<<
20:45:38 <ais523> ah, yes, that's probably why
20:45:50 <oklopol> i thought that'd be a fun way to say it with only you getting it
20:49:41 <oklopol> i don't get topic, is it an ingenious joke?
20:49:58 <ais523> this topic needs history, really, so I can roll it back to the main one easily
20:50:03 <ais523> I like the international hub topic
20:50:21 <ais523> either that, or we should change the topic to reflect what's currently being dicussed
20:51:05 <oklopol> or do i.... i like the idea of overflowing through infinity
20:51:05 -!- ais523 has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric language design, development and deployment | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
20:51:22 <ais523> oklopol: Funge with bignum cells can overflow past infinity
20:51:39 <ais523> Deewiant: AnMaster: what should y return for the cell size in a Funge interpreter with bignum cells?
20:51:50 <AnMaster> ais523, undefined in befunge98
20:51:58 <oklopol> the *values* can overflow past infinity?
20:52:09 <Deewiant> we talked about that with AnMaster, can't remember if we agreed on something other than that the spec sucks
20:52:38 <AnMaster> ais523, however still debugging this
20:53:16 <ais523> oklopol: no, the fungespace
20:53:23 <ais523> if you go too far in one direction you come back from the other
20:53:33 <ais523> despite fungespace being infinite if you use bignum cells
20:54:01 <oklopol> yeah, it's just that i know, but didn't you mean bignum *values* @ "what should y return for the cell size in a Funge interpreter with bignum cells"
20:54:48 <ais523> oklopol: that doesn't really make sense, hence the little discussion above
20:55:01 <AnMaster> ais523, also I solved it, not sure why
20:55:10 <AnMaster> the reason makes no sense to me
20:55:38 <ais523> can you try to explain?
20:56:49 <AnMaster> ais523, for loop as now but: +1 after strlen(program)
20:57:37 * ais523 looks at the relevant part of the source code
20:57:38 <AnMaster> because it didn't work without that even if I added a newline
20:58:45 <ais523> AnMaster: you're checking for end-of-string redundantly
20:58:51 <ais523> you're checking both the strlen and the \0
20:59:00 <ais523> the loop will be a lot faster if you don't call strlen in every iteration
20:59:04 <ais523> and I thought you liked speed...
20:59:43 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway last version is way closer
20:59:54 <AnMaster> also no it isn't redundant in original
21:00:36 <AnMaster> ais523, no it isn't redundant I think
21:00:55 <AnMaster> it is bad code yes and needs to be fixed but not redundant it seems
21:01:47 <AnMaster> ais523, not redundant in original FungeSpaceLoad()
21:01:54 <AnMaster> I get valgrind errors otherwise
21:02:01 <AnMaster> and I need to do some checks on the \0
21:02:14 <ais523> well, can you put literal NULs in a Funge program?
21:02:19 <ais523> if so, it's not redundant in the original
21:02:33 <ais523> but it is in the string version due to the way C strings are represented
21:02:35 <Deewiant> they'll reflect, being not bound to any instruction
21:02:38 <ais523> they can't have literal NULs
21:03:01 <Deewiant> ah, that's an interesting mycology test actually
21:03:24 <Deewiant> "foo<embedded zero>bar", print it, see what happens
21:03:31 <Deewiant> no, I don't, but I think I'll add that
21:03:46 <AnMaster> well I think my code may do the wrong thing still
21:03:58 <augur> ::bites tusho's face off::
21:04:12 <augur> so im watching oldschool doctor who from the 60s
21:09:59 * ais523 wonders how to deal with literal NULs in fffungi
21:10:21 <ais523> I suppose I'll have to put some other character in the string, and then change those chars to NULs in generated code in the .cio file
21:10:28 <AnMaster> not a common issue at loading time
21:11:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that was broken, fixing it now
21:14:33 <ais523> tusho: can you help to debug AnMaster's mysteriously broken code?
21:14:36 <ais523> it looks right to me too
21:14:41 <ais523> but can't be because it isn't working
21:14:46 <tusho> ais523: remove all the posix optimizations
21:14:50 <tusho> that won't fix your problem
21:14:52 <tusho> but i'll sleep at night
21:15:07 <ais523> well, apart from FUNGE_ATTR_FAST which is presumably inline
21:15:13 <ais523> but that's a C99 optimisation
21:15:24 <ais523> oh, and restrict on the program
21:15:30 <ais523> but it is validly a restrict
21:15:49 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and I'm debugging it too
21:15:58 <AnMaster> something is wrong in my logic I think
21:15:58 <ais523> many eyes make all bugs shallow...
21:16:03 <ais523> this bug is pretty deep, though, probably
21:16:10 <ais523> either that or it's a ninja typo
21:16:18 <ais523> that hides in shadows so you can't see it
21:16:47 <AnMaster> I get random garbage on dumping funge space after loading mycology, well not random... it is mycology with *no* newlines whatsowever
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21:17:08 <oklopol> how long is this broken piece of code?
21:17:24 <AnMaster> [offsetx, offsety] ] <- if the stack top contains zero, quit: our storage offset is unknown and incorrect
21:17:30 <oklopol> i usually see all bugs instantly, in case i manage to read a code
21:17:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that from mycology!?
21:18:03 <oklopol> (i usually can't read code unless written by me)
21:18:24 <oklopol> (so back to the original question, is it?)
21:18:56 <ais523> AnMaster: really? I count 19
21:18:56 <oklopol> what code? i wanna have a look
21:18:59 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/5xUya715.html
21:19:05 <oklopol> what's it supposed to do, what does it do?
21:19:06 <ais523> but presumably you have debug stuff in your version
21:19:10 <AnMaster> ais523, well the main one is broken now
21:19:23 <AnMaster> when I try to make loading \0 work
21:19:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, load a funge source file into to the fspace
21:19:56 <AnMaster> * Load a file into funge-space at 0,0. Optimised compared to
21:19:56 <AnMaster> * FungeSpaceLoadAtOffset(). Only used for loading initial file.
21:19:56 <AnMaster> * @param filename Filename to load.
21:19:56 <AnMaster> * @return True if successful, otherwise false.
21:20:15 <AnMaster> not that loading at offset seems to work either atm
21:21:17 <oklopol> many functions i've never heard about or written by you somewhere else in source
21:21:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, FungeSpaceOpenFile() is basically fopen()
21:21:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, cf_getline() is getline() from gnulib
21:22:09 <AnMaster> it is just so I don't have to depend onglibc
21:22:15 <augur> http://www.chainsawsuit.com/20080507.shtml
21:22:24 <ais523> getline() isn't basic C io
21:22:34 <ais523> it's GNU, rather than in the C standards, I think
21:22:38 <oklopol> i don't know even basic c io.
21:23:37 <AnMaster> well then you can't really help
21:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, with the checking for \0 it *works*
21:23:58 <oklopol> i think i know everything necessary now
21:23:59 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I was staring at the LoadString bit trying to figure out what was wrong
21:24:29 <AnMaster> ais523, also taking out check for \0 breaks it again it seems
21:24:40 <ais523> well, getline and \0 will always interact badly, I think
21:25:02 <ais523> because it gets a line, and presumably returns it as a string
21:25:19 <ais523> which means that as it's treating it as a string, everything after the first \0 is undefined
21:25:21 <AnMaster> ais523, it should break directly after \n iirc
21:25:24 <ais523> and therefore it itself might not handle it
21:25:55 <AnMaster> ais523, take a look at cf_getline and cf_getdelim in support.c will you?
21:26:51 <oklopol> why doesn't the else if have a i++?
21:27:04 <ais523> AnMaster: what in cf_getdelim should I look at in particular? It's a bit long
21:27:19 <AnMaster> ais523, no clue really, it is from gnulib :/
21:27:26 <AnMaster> but I'm changing to fread() now
21:30:36 <ais523> AnMaster: do Funge files have to be newline-terminated?
21:30:36 <ais523> cf_getdelim appears to error if it hits EOF rather than the delimiter
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21:30:50 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: do Funge files have to be newline-terminated?
21:30:50 <AnMaster> <ais523> cf_getdelim appears to error if it hits EOF rather than the delimiter
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21:31:58 <AnMaster> but that doesn't seem to be the issue here hrrm
21:32:05 <ais523> well, cf_getdelim appears to error if it hits EOF before a newline
21:32:15 <ais523> and sorry for my connection
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21:35:34 <ais523> AnMaster: how goes the loading code, then?
21:35:54 <AnMaster> that trace for mycology makes no sense!
21:36:00 <ais523> AnMaster: sounds like memory corruption
21:36:09 <ais523> either that, or a wrapping problem
21:36:19 <AnMaster> ==32534== Conditional jump or move depends on uninitialised value(s)
21:39:52 <ais523> so accessing uninitialised, and therefore effectively corrupted, memory
21:40:53 <AnMaster> That the greatest point, relative to that point, is ( 180 769 )
21:40:53 <AnMaster> BAD: should have been ( 180 768 )
21:41:15 <tusho> I support that blergh,.
21:41:33 <ais523> I also support that blergh
21:41:46 <ais523> On behalf of AnMaster, with 2 support, I cause AnMaster to blergh
21:42:35 <tusho> SELL TICKET. Price: 2VP. Action: Blergh.
21:42:47 <ais523> no way I'm buying that
21:42:56 <AnMaster> if (line[i] == '\r' && i < (sizeof(line) - 1) && line[i+1] == '\n')
21:43:21 <ais523> AnMaster: what about long lines in the input?
21:43:27 <ais523> are you deliberately not supporting them?
21:43:29 <AnMaster> ais523, well line is wrong word
21:43:40 <ais523> oh, line's a block of chars read from the input?
21:47:00 <ais523> actually, knowing Deewiant, it probably uses all 3
21:47:01 <AnMaster> ais523, yes in order to test that
21:47:21 <AnMaster> time to write a stateful parser
21:54:35 <ais523> AnMaster: the file-load, or the string-load?
21:54:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I will fix the other load next
21:55:05 <AnMaster> ais523, still pull to see the file load
21:55:51 <ais523> I'll wait until you have the bit I need and then pull both at once, I think, atm I'm only using cfunge as a library not as an executable
21:58:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm still not sure what the original bug was howevere
21:58:50 <AnMaster> but now it works and quite different code
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22:19:20 <tusho> "NO. YOU MAY NOT."
22:19:47 <AnMaster> well it wouldn't cause any problems to pull while I push
22:19:59 <ais523> but I might get the wrong version
22:20:06 <AnMaster> you just wouldn't get the revision I'm currently pushing
22:20:16 <ais523> yay, what I've done so far works
22:20:52 <ais523> I know have cfunge working correctly as a library
22:21:21 <ais523> I can compile cfunge + glue.c99 + a stub INTERCAL file
22:21:26 <ais523> and it runs a Befunge program and exits
22:21:35 <ais523> although at the moment the string containing the Befunge program is hardcoded
22:21:40 <AnMaster> well the .c99 extension needs to be changed later on
22:21:59 <ais523> by compiling cfunge and the glue separately rather than putting it on the command line
22:22:31 <ais523> also that'll prevent having to compile everything as C99
22:22:44 <ais523> it's the ffi library between INTERCAL and C
22:22:53 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/libick.a /usr/lib/libickec.a /usr/lib/libickmt.a
22:22:54 <ais523> plus the INTERCAL runtime modified to use it
22:23:12 <ais523> each is a different version of the runtime
22:23:24 <ais523> for the no option, -e and -m options respectively
22:24:07 <ais523> presumably libickcf.a would be in addition to libickec.a
22:24:12 <ais523> rather than instead of it, though
22:24:27 <ais523> because nothing in libickec needs to change for adding cfunge
22:24:45 <ais523> well, that would imply ec+cf to me
22:24:55 <ais523> personally, I don't care too much about library naming consistency
22:25:14 <ais523> because I don't think anything but C-INTERCAL uses its libaries
22:25:30 <ais523> maybe it should be libfffungi.a
22:25:46 <ais523> because like libyuk.a, it's in addition to the runtimes rather than a different sort of runtime
22:25:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well so will you be able to link intercal, befunge and C all at once then?
22:26:22 <ais523> even better, you can do COME FROMs between the Befunge and the C if you like
22:26:36 <ais523> even computed COME FROMs
22:27:37 <AnMaster> ais523, also you can do threads in C
22:27:42 <AnMaster> but would that break anything?
22:27:48 <AnMaster> if you in the C code used pthreads
22:28:21 <ais523> AnMaster: quite probably it would break something
22:28:29 <AnMaster> ais523, got a stub so I can test?
22:28:38 <ais523> AnMaster: a stub external-calls thing?
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22:31:58 <ais523> http://rafb.net/p/eF6d8778.html
22:32:04 <ais523> sorry, connection trouble...
22:32:13 <ais523> there's an example INTERCAL and C file
22:32:20 <ais523> note you have to give them different basenames
22:32:31 <ais523> because C-INTERCAL compiles into C and therefore uses .c as an extension for its output
22:33:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it could put it in /tmp or something
22:34:07 <AnMaster> ais523, also what part jumps to the C code?
22:34:13 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I use /tmp too, but quite a lot of options leave the .c behind
22:34:37 <ais523> AnMaster: the DO (9876) NEXT is a procedure call to line 9876 in the C code
22:34:46 <ais523> and the C code has ick_nextfrom(3);
22:34:58 <ais523> which is a reverse procedure call from the INTERCAL code
22:35:40 <ais523> the next from basically makes all lines numbered 3 into a NEXT to that line
22:35:45 <ais523> like a comefrom, but you can return from it
22:36:22 <ais523> well, (1) DO WRITE OUT #1 DO (2) NEXT PLEASE GIVE UP (2) DO RESUME #1
22:36:39 <ais523> is equivalent to (1) DO WRITE OUT #1 PLEASE GIVE UP (2) DO NEXT FROM #1 DO RESUME #1
22:36:57 <ais523> that should explain the equivalence, the first uses NEXT while the second uses NEXT FROM
22:37:43 <ais523> it's not that hard to follow, really, once you have the concept of a COME FROM
22:37:48 <ais523> but just use NEXT if NEXT FROM confuses you
22:38:00 <ais523> NEXT and RESUME #1 can be used as a procedure call
22:38:06 <AnMaster> all I need is to test some C :P
22:38:36 <ais523> I can give you an even simpler example if you like
22:38:43 <AnMaster> ais523, hurm, how do I link a library?
22:39:01 <AnMaster> oh yes, if I can just make it generate the C code
22:39:07 <AnMaster> then I can link the result myself
22:39:31 <ais523> use -egY as your command line options
22:39:35 <ais523> that prints out the commands it uses
22:39:42 <ais523> then just run a modified version of the final command it gives
22:39:46 <ais523> -g tells it to keep its temporaries
22:39:53 <ais523> and -Y to print out command-line args
22:40:04 <ais523> hmm... unless it deletes the tempfile it creates anyway, I'll have to check
22:40:47 <ais523> anyway, http://rafb.net/p/jezQ9j47.html is a really minimal test for the C vs. INTERCAL ffi
22:40:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I need to do -pthreads to check this
22:41:00 <ais523> and why would it? because I made a mistake, that's why
22:41:06 <ais523> I'm not sure if it does
22:41:48 <ais523> ugh, yes it does delete the temporary
22:41:59 <ais523> even worse, it deletes its temporaries inconsistently
22:42:15 <ais523> for the time being I suggest you just edit the source to add -pthreads manually
22:42:21 <ais523> I'm planning to implement general library support
22:42:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well I need to test with -lphreads to be exact
22:42:35 <AnMaster> ais523, where in c-intercal source to edit?
22:42:50 <ais523> umm... in the multi-line trainwreck near the end
22:43:08 <AnMaster> <ais523> umm... in the multi-line trainwreck near the end
22:43:10 <ais523> that's in the right area, I think
22:43:24 <ais523> where I put in an extra closing bracket to help Emacs indent properly
22:43:42 <ais523> search for the character string -Wl
22:43:55 <ais523> I think the multi-line trainwreck is the only part of the code that uses that
22:44:11 <ais523> and you'll see why I call it that when you find the relevant part of the code
22:44:27 <ais523> it's a long sprintf/snprintf, with #ifdefs and suchlike in the middle of it
22:45:10 <ais523> yes, probably, there are several occurences of that throughout the code
22:45:15 <ais523> but the place I'm thinking of is one of them
22:45:31 <AnMaster> idea: just use a sprintf/snprintf wrapper macro
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22:46:49 <ais523> and I had thought of that
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22:47:10 <AnMaster> also mixed tabs/spaces indenting you use there suck
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22:47:16 <AnMaster> ick_lose(IE666, -1, (char*)NULL);
22:47:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> also mixed tabs/spaces indenting you use there suck
22:48:22 <ais523> I think it's a you-specified-too-much-on-the-command-line error
22:48:39 <ais523> COMPILER HAS INDIGESTION
22:48:56 <ais523> it's for input line too long, input file too long, or too many input files
22:49:31 <ais523> because I'm lazy and use a static buffer for command lines
22:49:44 <ais523> it's not as if the command line is anything that should run out of space anyway
22:49:55 <ais523> after all, cfunge with all its files fits onto the command line
22:51:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I added a fingerprint today btw, not sure if you noticed
22:51:28 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to pull in the updated fingerprints.h to get a linking error for it then :P
22:52:40 <ais523> well, I'll go without the linking error, then
22:52:43 <ais523> does TURT use pthreads?
22:53:12 <ais523> why the link error, then?
22:53:26 <AnMaster> ais523, because you would need to include an extra file
22:53:38 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm using wildcards on the command line
22:53:40 <ais523> I pasted it a while back
22:53:54 <ais523> no, but I'm using wildcard renames
22:54:38 <AnMaster> linking errors aren't likely to happen for some time
22:55:03 <AnMaster> some future fingerprints could need libpng or some socket related library I guess
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22:57:21 <AnMaster> ais523, will try pthreads tomorrow
22:57:34 * AnMaster is coding on some other parts atm
22:59:28 <AnMaster> ais523, you may want to take a look at tools/fuzz-test.sh
23:01:13 <AnMaster> cfunge: /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/stack.c:115: StackPushNoCheck: Assertion `stack->top < stack->size' failed.
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23:23:46 <ais523> AnMaster: how did an assertion in a NoCheck procedure fail?
23:23:50 <ais523> I thought they did no checks
23:24:10 <tusho> ais523: no, that means they have no _posix_check functions in
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23:24:12 <AnMaster> // This should only be used if that is true...
23:24:12 <AnMaster> assert(stack->top < stack->size);
23:24:22 <tusho> (which checks an internal field with fuzzy logic)
23:24:28 <tusho> (in less than -1ms)
23:24:45 <AnMaster> ais523, to do a assert in case it is compiled with debug info
23:24:57 <AnMaster> it won't do any check in release build
23:25:05 <ais523> tusho: it took me a moment to realise you were joking
23:25:15 <tusho> ais523: ... I was joking?
23:25:15 <ais523> partly because I thought AnMaster had said it, rather than you, to start with
23:25:23 <ais523> you both come out green in my nickname coloriser
23:25:41 <AnMaster> well I'm not sure of the cause
23:26:06 <AnMaster> ais523, it happens when stack size reach astonomical sizes
23:26:48 <ais523> AnMaster: integer wraparound?
23:27:07 <AnMaster> I use 64-bit size_t all the time too
23:27:22 <AnMaster> ais523, and astromical is closer to 64-mb here
23:27:36 <ais523> so astromical < astronomical?
23:28:27 <AnMaster> ais523, can you see anything wrong in StackPreallocSpace() in stack.c that could make it *underestimate* the needed space
23:28:55 <AnMaster> #4 0x00000000004041b3 in StackPushString (stack=0x694620,
23:28:56 <AnMaster> str=0x7fff8754570f "PATH=/usr/kde/3.5/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/opt/bin:/usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/gcc-bin/4.1.2:/opt/ghc/bin:/opt/blackdown-jdk-1.4.2.03/bin:/opt/blackdown-jdk-1.4.2.03/jre/bin:/usr/qt/3/bin:/usr/g"..., len=18) at /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/stack.c:216
23:28:56 <AnMaster> 216 StackPushNoCheck(stack, str[len]);
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23:30:04 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, can you see anything wrong in StackPreallocSpace() in stack.c that could make it *underestimate* the needed space
23:30:11 <AnMaster> ais523, because that seems to be the error
23:30:40 <ais523> ugh, it's sufficiently late that I'm not really capable of debugging code any more
23:30:42 <ais523> I have to go soon as is
23:30:56 <ais523> tomorrow afternoon I'll have a better chance of figuring what's going on
23:31:20 <AnMaster> tusho, http://rafb.net/p/4MlAuO29.html
23:31:33 <AnMaster> any idea why that underestimates in some rare cases
23:32:00 <tusho> i'm not your tech support
23:32:06 <tusho> newsize += (minfree % ALLOCCHUNKSIZE + 1) * ALLOCCHUNKSIZE;
23:32:11 <tusho> stack->size += minfree;
23:32:24 <ais523> why have you reimplemented realloc?
23:32:26 <tusho> ais523: it reallocs without doing anything
23:32:33 <AnMaster> ais523, just a macro for bohem-gc
23:32:34 <tusho> specifically, it rewinds the clock with a reallocated version
23:32:44 <ais523> tusho: heh, you could do that in Feather
23:32:50 <tusho> cf means Cold Fire, which is what AnMaster redefined really gnarly posix functions with
23:32:56 <ais523> but it would be even less efficient then the typical C version
23:33:02 <tusho> (it is really called __posix_realloc_timewind_xsf)
23:33:27 <AnMaster> # define cf_malloc(x) GC_MALLOC(x)
23:33:31 <AnMaster> # define cf_malloc(x) malloc(x)
23:33:37 <AnMaster> depending on if we build with GC
23:34:00 <ais523> nothing, really, I was just surprised, that's all
23:35:48 <ais523> AnMaster: why not stack->size=newsize?
23:36:00 <AnMaster> ais523, "// Round to whole ALLOCCHUNKSIZE upwards."
23:36:02 <ais523> you're increasing stack->size and the actual allocated memory at different rates
23:36:20 <ais523> what's stack->size meant to represent, if not the allocated memory
23:36:56 <ais523> does that fix your bug?
23:37:16 <ais523> if only you hadn't done it in the very last line, I would have found it faster
23:37:29 <ais523> try typoing earlier next time, it makes it faster to debug when checking from top to bottom
23:40:16 <AnMaster> ais523, and I tend to spread assert() around the code to help debug it
23:41:01 <AnMaster> stack.h contains the actual change
23:41:13 <AnMaster> some other files had some typo fixes in comments
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