←2017-09 2017-10 2017-11→ ↑2017 ↑all
2017-10-01
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00:04:33 <wob_jonas> In http://pbfcomics.com/ , in the bottom mosaic that seems at first as if it listed all strips, why isn't there a link to http://pbfcomics.com/comics/skub/ ?
00:05:26 <wob_jonas> And why does the link to http://pbfcomics.com/comics/harmony/ show the wrong thumbnail image?
00:13:32 <zzo38> Why does pasting a javascript: URI into the location bar when it is currently empty will cause it not to paste the scheme?
00:13:58 <zzo38> (If it is not empty it does paste the scheme, and if the scheme isn't javascript: then it also pastes the scheme)
00:15:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: what browser is this? is it possible that the scheme is logically there but hidden in the display of the url bar? firefox hides https:// in the url bar these days, but it's still there and gets copied when you select the whole thing
00:15:26 <wob_jonas> it also hides most percent-escapes showing them as the character they represent, which is much worse IMO
00:15:41 <zzo38> Firefox. Also, it isn't logically there; if pasted and push return, it doesn't work!
00:16:08 <wob_jonas> there can be other reasons why it doesn't work
00:16:09 <zzo38> But about those other things hidden, I have gotten rid of them. I can show you the code I used to avoid hiding percent-escapes if you want it
00:16:37 <zzo38> wob_jonas: No, it really isn't logically there; if I paste it and then add "javascript:" in front, then it does work.
00:16:57 <wob_jonas> it's not so important that I'd start fixing it. firefox has other bad things, and I won't spend my time fixing them all, except for the really orst ones.
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00:18:17 <zzo38> Yes, and I wrote a document about how to make a better kind
00:18:37 <wob_jonas> a better kind of what?
00:20:31 <zzo38> Of web browser program
00:20:49 <Cthulhux> thats easy
00:21:05 <wob_jonas> that's not for me. I want to make better software if I have time, but not browser.
00:21:08 <wob_jonas> let other people do that.
00:21:09 <Cthulhux> something better than firefox has become a weekend job as of today
00:21:11 <Cthulhux> blergh
00:22:03 <wob_jonas> and plugins can fix some of the more annoying things in firefox. they made every part pretty hookable.
00:22:05 <zzo38> But I used a code like this: if(location=="chrome://browser/content/browser.xul") window.losslessDecodeURI=x=>x.spec;
00:22:22 <Cthulhux> wob_jonas, they removed most hooks :(
00:22:27 <zzo38> Yes, I did add several extensions as well as userChrome.js with many of my own codes
00:22:37 <zzo38> I did not install the newer version with the removed most hooks
00:22:48 <wob_jonas> what? they removed hooks? when
00:23:05 <Cthulhux> fx57 does not support most of old XUL hooks
00:23:09 <zzo38> (This forces it to display percent encoding, I think, rather than the characters they represent)
00:23:10 <Cthulhux> and never will
00:23:37 <Cthulhux> i mean, hooray, it can do sidebars now, but...
00:23:38 <Cthulhux> :/
00:24:10 <zzo38> I do think XPCOM is stupid, although I think XUL can be good (or something like it; HTML isn't as suitable here)
00:24:32 <wob_jonas> is it the hooks that people used a lot that they removed, or the ones that nobody used?
00:24:51 <zzo38> I have used userChrome.js to make a relative location bar feature.
00:25:12 <Cthulhux> they removed most ways to modify your UI, excluding "add things to the sidebar" and "add a new toolbar button"
00:25:31 <Cthulhux> userChrome.css is an inadequate replacement IMO
00:25:45 <zzo38> Cthulhux: Which isn't very good, as I have instead removed most toolbar buttons, rather than adding stuff.
00:25:54 <wob_jonas> wasn't a CSS always the normal way to modify the UI?
00:26:02 <Cthulhux> zzo38, their reason was "we need chrome compatibility"
00:26:06 * Cthulhux pukes
00:26:21 <Cthulhux> wob_jonas, no.
00:26:24 <Cthulhux> XUL was.
00:27:08 <Cthulhux> my firefox updated to 57 yesterday and i never hated using a computer so much in the last few decades-.
00:27:10 <zzo38> If the chrome window has IDs and classes and stuff suitable for CSS, then use of custom CSS codes should help somewhat, although still there are many things it will be no good at.
00:27:23 <zzo38> I disabled updates to Firefox to avoid stuff like that
00:27:58 <Cthulhux> you can write custom dialogs in HTML now, hooray. "dialogs", that is. no more access to firefox's own dialogs
00:28:16 <Cthulhux> also, AFAIR the API to execute external applications has been removed for good
00:28:24 <Cthulhux> "security" my ass
00:28:43 <Cthulhux> things like opendownload² and vimperator are pretty much dead now.
00:28:51 <Cthulhux> i seriously consider going back to pale moon.
00:29:12 <zzo38> I think the Node.js API is better for executing external applications and files anyways
00:29:25 <zzo38> (better than XPCOM, I mean)
00:29:42 <wob_jonas> Cthulhux: oh, so that's why the open-as extension was broken!
00:30:00 <wob_jonas> I thought it was broken because they started to require that all extensions have to be signed or something like that
00:30:08 <zzo38> Another thing I have done is actually hexediting one of the .so files, in order to remove support for HSTS.
00:30:23 <Cthulhux> wob_jonas, maybe. i wrote the OpenDownload² extension and i was reported that it does almost the same... yup, not possible anymore
00:30:41 <Cthulhux> crapzilla
00:31:34 <wob_jonas> this explains a lot
00:31:47 <zzo38> This is the document I wrote about how to make a better web browser program: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/web_browser
00:31:48 <wob_jonas> I noticed they broken some plugins, but I thought they broke them in some other way
00:32:54 <Cthulhux> something like vivaldi would be nice, but with a more flexible UI (= scriptable)
00:33:00 <Cthulhux> or qutebrowser with plugin support
00:33:02 <Cthulhux> :<
00:34:15 <zzo38> What you will think of the ideas I wrote?
00:34:51 <Cthulhux> The user is assumed to be an expert at the computer << :DD lovely
00:40:59 <zzo38> Is that all?
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00:49:16 <Cthulhux> no objections _generally_.
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00:50:39 <zzo38> Do you have an objection not-generally, or any suggestion, question, comment, complaint, etc?
00:51:55 <Cthulhux> i'm positive that the only relevant rule is "assumed to be an expert" because that will inevitably lead to most of the other features.
00:53:23 <zzo38> Maybe it does; I don't quite know. But it does seem like it can be possible.
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01:01:51 <zzo38> Do you like farbfeld?
01:01:59 <Cthulhux> never tried
01:02:36 <pikhq> It's a fairly nice simple image format.
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01:02:52 <pikhq> Bit niche, but it's handy if you're wanting to just write simple image filters or something.
01:03:06 <pikhq> Think where you'd use PBM, only... it sucks less.
01:04:49 <zzo38> Yes, I think so too, actually. Have you written any image filters (or converters) for use with farbfeld?
01:05:28 <pikhq> A couple, though they were just toys.
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01:06:26 <zzo38> I have written many, and if you have any that I do not have, then it can be useful to add them too (or make a link)
01:09:07 <zzo38> Currently I have a NTSC decoder, but not a NTSC encoder. There is also no TV frame encoder/decoder.
01:09:35 <zzo38> (And it does not include a feature to find and use an existing colour burst signal to set the phase)
01:12:33 <zzo38> I think that the TV frame decoder program should take raw audio data (at a high but irrelevant sample rate, and also it isn't actually meant as audio) from stdin and produce a grey scale farbfeld picture on stdout, based on the retrace signals and so on that it finds, with specified framing options (such as in case you wish to include colour burst signal in output).
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01:36:24 <oerjan> `date
01:36:25 <HackEgo> Sun Oct 1 00:36:23 UTC 2017
01:37:18 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is revolutionary
01:37:20 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is revolutionary
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01:43:33 <oerjan> are we allowing random dudes on the wiki now...
01:48:01 <fizzie> Huh, the introductions page is pretty long.
01:49:13 <int-e> oerjan: . o O ( do you like rotating passwords? )
01:54:43 <oerjan> int-e: only on HackEgo hth
01:55:53 <oerjan> oh wait
01:56:00 * oerjan swats int-e -----###
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02:14:31 <FreeFull> Rotate your password 90° for an even hash
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02:42:34 <Taneb> Ugh, I fell asleep when I didn't mean to and now I am tired but wide awake
02:42:43 <Taneb> Also it's quarter to three in the morning
02:42:48 <Taneb> Not the most fun time to be up
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03:17:01 <shachaf> oerjan: did you play Flood
03:17:12 <shachaf> or are you antediluvian twh
03:22:18 <oerjan> the tatham game? i usually don't play it more than a couple times when i get around to it.
03:23:29 * oerjan currently on Slant
04:04:15 <zzo38> Now I wrote the program to convert farbfeld into XBM, too
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05:33:56 <zzo38> How do you classify the story of computer game: You are trying to go to Mornington Crescent but suddenly your wing broke and you fell down and got badly injured, and the only thing you have is a unloaded gun. But, this is ZZT, so there are magic diamonds that can help you!
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09:35:33 <Taneb> So, last night I was trying to implement System F in Agda
09:36:11 <Taneb> I'm not sure I've got it right though
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14:13:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jsteilberg * New user account
14:16:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53154&oldid=53153 * Jsteilberg * (+220) added my intro
14:16:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53155&oldid=53154 * Jsteilberg * (+13)
14:18:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53156&oldid=53155 * Jsteilberg * (+106) Is it four tildes to sign? Not really sure, sorry
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17:48:35 <zzo38> I remember once I used prompt().toString() in a bookmarklet code, I think (It seem strange, but it does work.)
17:48:50 <Cthulhux> javascript is really esoteric
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18:07:59 <zzo38> Are you sure?
18:22:09 <Cthulhux> i am
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18:25:06 <zzo38> OK
18:26:40 <int-e> arcane, maybe, esoteric, not.
18:27:13 <Cthulhux> a language where you can never be sure if your comparison is true or false is probably rather esoteric
18:27:13 <Cthulhux> :x
18:27:45 <zzo38> Why are you not sure if the comparison is true or false? The rules for such thing in JavaScript look clearly enough to me
18:27:56 <int-e> Cthulhux: you must be talking about PHP
18:28:09 <Cthulhux> https://charlieharvey.org.uk/page/javascript_the_weird_parts
18:28:15 <Cthulhux> php does *not* do that
18:28:51 <int-e> bash: php: command not found
18:29:12 <int-e> <?php var_dump(md5('240610708') == md5('QNKCDZO')) ?>
18:30:05 <int-e> `php
18:30:10 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: php: not found
18:30:20 <Cthulhux> `rm -rf /
18:30:21 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'rm --help' for more information.
18:30:23 <Cthulhux> :{
18:30:32 <Cthulhux> ok :(
18:30:51 <boily> `w QNKCDZO
18:30:53 <HackEgo> That's not wise.
18:30:58 <int-e> please don't try to destroy the sandbox. it has some safety guards but they aren't perfect.
18:31:02 <boily> `? QNKCDZO
18:31:04 <HackEgo> QNKCDZO? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:31:40 <Cthulhux> also: <int-e> bash: php: command not found << probably a bash issue. all of my powershell, ksh and tcsh systems know php!
18:31:47 <Cthulhux> have you considered to file a bug? :D
18:32:03 <int-e> `` echo -n 240610708 | md5sum -; echo -n QNKCDZO | md5sum -
18:32:04 <HackEgo> 0e462097431906509019562988736854 - \ 0e830400451993494058024219903391 -
18:32:38 <int-e> Cthulhux: nah I just don't use php at home :P
18:32:53 <int-e> if anything it's a feature
18:32:58 <Cthulhux> i randomly maintain my old wordpress plugins
18:33:02 <Cthulhux> requires php
18:33:03 <Cthulhux> :/
18:33:40 <int-e> But somehow, I do have php at work.
18:36:25 <int-e> in any case this was one surprising pitfall of magical comparisons...
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19:56:41 <zzo38> I still think that some of the somewhat recent stuff in JavaScript is good stuff, such as typed arrays, generator functions, and arrow functions; I use that stuff.
19:57:18 <Cthulhux> javascript was never meant for actual programming
19:57:27 <Cthulhux> that becomes obvious these days
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19:59:02 <zzo38> Well, I think it works for that though (sometimes; it depends on the program)
19:59:27 <Cthulhux> sure, you can write everything in any programming language if you just try hard enough
19:59:34 <Cthulhux> but you really should not.
20:06:00 <zzo38> I wrote a level editor for a DOS game once in JavaScript (mainly because the editor included with the game does not work correctly on DOSBOX, although on a true DOS computer it works OK)
20:06:18 <Cthulhux> i wrote a website in COBOL
20:06:25 <Cthulhux> i still can't recommend to do that
20:08:22 <zzo38> I do program in C as well
20:09:27 <Cthulhux> so do I. still less esoteric than javascript ^^
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20:17:53 <zzo38> This level editor is using SDL, although I also wrote a program in JavaScript to calculate the character points for a GURPS game, which only uses stdio
20:18:52 <zzo38> Do you know to play any GURPS game?
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21:32:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ivancr72]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53157&oldid=50934 * Ivancr72 * (-192)
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22:19:32 <zzo38> Is there any command in vim to allow syntax highlighting to be used on stuff that is displayed using the "lcs" option rather than only using SpecialKey and NonText highlighting?
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2017-10-02
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00:18:38 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. the fungot has left :(
00:24:29 <shachaf> `5 w
00:24:35 <HackEgo> 1/2:betty crocker//Betty Crocker is a notorious gambler. \ manglophobia//Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms. \ nth//nth is not that helpful \ s//Esses are confusing. \ ocean//The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. Th
00:25:24 <shachaf> `n
00:25:25 <HackEgo> 2/2:e Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
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00:37:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53158&oldid=52440 * Challenger5 * (+0)
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01:09:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53159&oldid=52467 * Challenger5 * (+762)
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01:42:21 * boily waves at fungot
01:42:21 <fungot> boily: dromiceiomimus, i have a great idea, dromiceiomimus: stories for women
01:48:07 <fizzie> Our internet left. (And then came back.)
01:48:16 <alercah> `?
01:48:18 <HackEgo> ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:48:24 <alercah> `quote
01:48:25 <HackEgo> 834) <Vorpal> elliott, mostly I want something that takes zero effort to maintain and update once the initial setup is done. <elliott> okay well that is called not linux
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11:30:07 <b_jonas> Stupid thought: Windows renamed the Explorer program to File Explorer between Windows 7 and Windows 10, presumably because "Explorer" was too confusing: http://pbfcomics.com/comics/cave-explorer/
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11:49:28 <b_jonas> https://www.xkcd.com/1897/ - they could outsource driving to twitch chat
11:50:32 <b_jonas> also, I brought up this point about gamifying the AI task we want to solve for a work project, but my supervisor said no.
11:55:27 <Vorpal> b_jonas: you mean like twitch plays pokemon?
11:55:27 <Vorpal> heh
11:55:53 <b_jonas> Vorpal: yes
11:56:50 <b_jonas> well, it's possible that twitch chat isn't the best format for getting the driving input, but it could still be turned to a game through internet and twitch would popularize the game
11:57:35 <b_jonas> twitch usually has a higher latency than you could get if you made a game that only people with a good enough net connection could play (or at least only people with a good net connection would give input that actually matters for driving the car)
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15:01:08 <b_jonas> `ftoc 140
15:01:09 <HackEgo> 140.00°F = 60.00°C
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15:27:30 <b_jonas> Apparently there was a mass shooting with over 50 people dead yesterday in Las Vegas.
15:27:47 <b_jonas> no wait, not in Last Vegas, but somewher else in Nevada
15:28:01 <b_jonas> close
15:49:53 <int-e> hehe. http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gzip/gzip-1.8.tar.xz
15:54:27 <b_jonas> int-e: they also have a tar.gz at the same place
15:54:30 <b_jonas> for the same version
15:55:19 <int-e> I know.
15:55:41 <int-e> Which is also funny but in a different way.
15:56:15 <ais523> you'd think they'd have uncompressed source
15:56:20 <ais523> given the purpose of gzip
15:56:48 <ais523> this reminds me of the time I wrote a version of uudecode using only printable characters…
15:57:21 <ais523> (more specifically, I wrote an encoder similar to uuencode that produced executables as output; you could run this on uudecode itself in order to get uudecode onto a system that didn't have it)
15:57:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but on the other hand, you also can't bootstrap building a shell without having a shell, and can't build a C compiler if you don't have a C compiler, and compared to either of those, gzip is much more well spread
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15:58:02 <ais523> b_jonas: C compilers should be provided as executables for that reason (and commonly are)
15:58:13 <ais523> in addition to the source form
15:58:18 <b_jonas> ais523: also, zlib is likely literally the software that's installed in the most places, and it's not that hard to write gzip from libc;
15:58:22 <b_jonas> s/libc/zlib/
15:58:41 <ais523> building a shell with no shell could be tricky, perhaps you could do it via repeatedly rebooting the system and setting the compiler, linker, etc. as init
15:58:47 <b_jonas> plus there's also a very portable gzip decompressor at https://pts.50.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz
15:59:01 <b_jonas> which is much more limited and slower than gzip, but still works
15:59:15 <ais523> (note that this is pretty much just theoretical; you're unlikely to have a working compiler and linker but no working shell)
15:59:18 <b_jonas> and you're most likely to have a decompressor that understands gzip than a program that understands that version of tar too
15:59:26 <b_jonas> ais523: that's not TRUE
15:59:44 <b_jonas> ais523: people have problems with building very portable programs on windows because it's hard to find a suitable shell to run the build scripts
15:59:53 <b_jonas> this is for C programs that are very portable so they're easy to build
15:59:55 <b_jonas> seriously
15:59:57 <ais523> Windows has a working shell, though (two, in fact)
16:00:08 <ais523> it's just that the programs in question have build scripts written for a different dialect of shellscript
16:00:10 <b_jonas> you also need a gnu make, but gnu make provides a shell script to build itself without needing any make first
16:00:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's why I say a posix-like shell
16:00:28 <danil> whatcha talking about?
16:00:30 <ais523> besides you could probably just build it with aimake
16:00:32 <b_jonas> not specifically bash, but nothing windows-like
16:00:43 <ais523> danil: trying to build build tools without having the build tool itself in advance
16:01:05 <danil> complicated
16:01:35 <b_jonas> what I don't like is how 7-zip now only distributes the latest versions of its source code in 7-zip and self-extracting 7-zip formats, and the self-extracting part runs only on windows (you can extract it with a 7zip program anywhere),
16:01:36 <ais523> I guess an OS missing build tools is something of an esolang in its own right
16:01:37 -!- sleffy has joined.
16:01:42 <ais523> it has commands but not the ones you actually wanted
16:01:53 <b_jonas> despite that the source code has the command-line version that works on unices too
16:02:02 <danil> at least 7zip works
16:02:05 <b_jonas> in previous versions, they used to distribute the source code as bzip2
16:02:14 <b_jonas> or as zip or something
16:02:25 <ais523> I assume Debian still distributes it as xz or something?
16:02:40 <b_jonas> ais523: probably something like that, I don't know how they compress their programs
16:02:48 <danil> RAR and other zip utilities understand 7zip format
16:02:50 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:03:24 <b_jonas> also, if anyone wants, I can give you all parts of 7-zip packed in whatever reasonable format you want
16:03:33 <b_jonas> I actually have zip versions of some of what they distrubute
16:03:43 <ais523> what about unreasonable formats?
16:04:00 <b_jonas> those are the windows executables, I keep them just in case
16:04:08 <b_jonas> they should distribute the source code in zip format
16:04:44 <ais523> clearly it should be distributed as an uncompressed shar
16:04:45 <b_jonas> ais523: I can provide some unreasonable formats too, but not just any unreasonable format
16:04:46 <ais523> that was reasonable once
16:04:51 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
16:04:55 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure I used it for something as a joke at one point, possibly C-INTERCAL
16:05:11 <ais523> oh, hmm, maybe I posted a new version of C-INTERCAL to Usenet directly for tradition's sake?
16:05:19 <ais523> it's the sort of thing I'd do
16:05:36 -!- danil has joined.
16:06:11 <danil> 7ZIP works on my Ubuntu.
16:07:11 <danil> BTW, whats a 'hypercide'
16:07:33 <danil> Sorry, BTW whats a 'hypercube'
16:07:35 <b_jonas> danil: yes, that's p7zip, 7zip's own command-line port to linux, which works almost the same as their windows command-line version
16:07:44 <b_jonas> works more or less decently but with a horrible user interface
16:07:52 <ais523> danil: a hypercube is a 4 (or more)-dimensional generalization of a cube
16:07:52 <b_jonas> developped by the 7-zip devs themselves
16:07:58 <b_jonas> `? hypercube
16:07:59 <HackEgo> hypercube? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:08:12 <ais523> you can think of a cube as being two squares, with corresponding corners connected
16:08:25 <ais523> that's fairly easy to visualise because humans are used to both 2D and 3D
16:08:34 <danil> 'Welcome to the international hyper cube for esoteric languages'
16:08:37 <ais523> but the two squares are in separate 2D planes
16:08:57 <b_jonas> oh, I was wrong!
16:09:10 <ais523> so a hypercube is that a dimension higher up; you get two 3D cubes in separate 3D spaces (think parallel universes or the like), and then connect all the corners
16:09:13 <b_jonas> they provide the source code of the unix command-line version at least as bz2
16:09:16 <ais523> err, corresponding corners
16:09:19 <ais523> also the channel topic here is rarely serious
16:09:24 <b_jonas> it's only the windows version that they only provide as 7zip and msi currently
16:09:27 <ais523> I think someone wrote "hypercube" rather than "IRC channel" as a joke
16:09:33 <danil> OK, this is NOT a geometry IRC channel!
16:09:50 <b_jonas> they should provide the standalone windows command-line version as a zip, so you can easily use it without admin privilages
16:09:53 <b_jonas> but still
16:09:54 <b_jonas> it's not as bad as I thought
16:09:54 <danil> No one understands IRC jokes.
16:09:56 <ais523> the standard topic is something along the lines of "welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment"
16:10:29 <ais523> but people have a tendency to change it due to messing around and not enough people are inclined to change it back
16:10:41 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
16:10:51 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
16:10:52 <ais523> actually, better
16:10:56 <b_jonas> ais523: it seems like 7-zip is careful, they made sure the source code for the unix command-line version is written in C (not C++) and all source files have 8.3 filenames, so I can provide it in quite a few unreasonable formats of old dos compressor programs nobody even remembers anymore
16:11:05 <danil> what's 7zip got to do with build tools. 7zip's a decompressor
16:11:05 <ais523> I don't think we've had this one before and it's actually /more/ precise than the usual topic
16:11:21 <ais523> danil: if the source code you're trying to build is in .7z format
16:11:24 <ais523> like, say, 7zip's is
16:11:38 <danil> Oh...
16:12:05 <b_jonas> ais523: I would like to note that xz actually distributes pre-built DOS binaries though
16:12:10 <danil> I never actually looked at 7zips source code
16:12:27 <ais523> b_jonas: neat
16:12:31 <b_jonas> danil: this channel can drift to off-topic sometimes
16:12:32 <ais523> how much demand is there for DOS binaries of NetHack, btw?
16:12:43 <ais523> our current DOS maintainer has disappeared and I'm wondering if I should try to take over
16:12:47 <danil> b_jonas: WOW!
16:13:10 <danil> whatz nethack?
16:13:11 <ais523> but yes, I stayed away from this channel for months because I disliked how offtopic it had gotten
16:13:16 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know. I have a custom DOS binary for the joe-editor that I can distribute. It's not perfect, but I used it for text editing a lot.
16:13:18 <ais523> danil: computer game, famous for being old and portable
16:13:32 <b_jonas> ais523: it's famous for being portable? I didn't know of that
16:13:45 <ais523> b_jonas: well it runs on a huge number of platforms, especially if you take older versions
16:13:46 <danil> ais523: I dont understand computer games
16:14:04 <ais523> people who have an old computer with an unusual OS and want to play a game on it often send us questions about what version they can run on it
16:14:19 <b_jonas> I thought old programs from back then just (a) had to do that out of necessity, and (b) are automatically portable because everyone implements the few thousand functions those old programs used from the old BSD libc or whatever, including crazy ones like index.
16:14:22 <ais523> danil: they're basically a way to practice skills in a controlled environment, while having fun
16:14:46 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, they often send you (as in the devteam) questions, really?
16:14:48 <ais523> some games train skills like reaction time and coordination, others about more mental skills like planning andp uzzle solving
16:15:02 <b_jonas> if they do, then yes, it is notable for being portable
16:15:17 <danil> I mean, i dont put my head into the games.(And in the cloud)
16:15:19 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, one of our most common sorts of email (that isn't a bug report) is "can you recommend a version of NetHack that I can play on my «insert old computer system here»?"
16:15:41 <danil> Are you a NetHack dev?
16:15:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I guess that could be true, after all, someone wondered about a port to that old nokia personal organizer
16:15:49 <ais523> danil: yes
16:16:21 <danil> How is that linked with esoteric programming languages?
16:17:06 <b_jonas> danil: porting programs to old systems is an eso-programming topic already, but this channel often drifts off-topic too
16:17:11 <ais523> well, the release of NetHack 3.6.0 only came about as a consequence of the existence of INTERCAL
16:17:14 <ais523> but that's mostly just coincidence
16:17:27 <danil> Yep. This channel gets offtopic all the time
16:18:02 <ais523> and it was a fairly long dependency chain (although still a clear one that's possible to trace)
16:18:03 <danil> the esoteric title changed!
16:18:19 <ais523> yep
16:18:32 <ais523> those things are fairly easy to change
16:18:41 <danil> Did you change it?
16:18:44 <ais523> yes
16:18:53 <danil> Thanks.
16:18:58 <b_jonas> danil: also, if you look at nethack's source code in detail, you'll see it looks sort of like eso-programming now, even though the practices it uses made sense back when it was developped, and it's a lot of work to rewrite it.
16:19:03 <ais523> it'll probably be changed to something else by tomorrow, though, knowing this channel
16:19:20 <ais523> b_jonas: IMO it'd be great if the game itself were Turing-complete, but I'm fairly sure it isn't
16:19:21 <int-e> tempting.
16:19:35 <danil> Oh, hi int-e!
16:19:53 <int-e> fungot: say something?
16:19:53 <fungot> int-e: you look: poorly drawn
16:20:01 <int-e> fungot: thanks so much
16:20:01 <fungot> int-e: a new day dawns...
16:20:11 <int-e> ^style
16:20:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:20:20 <ais523> fungot is a bot written in Befunge
16:20:20 <fungot> ais523: all that means is that if a building? it is the east, and plagiarism is
16:20:42 <ais523> it has a few functions, one of the main ones is trying and failing to say something intelligible in response to people mentioning its name
16:20:44 <danil> fungot: say your source code out loud
16:20:44 <fungot> danil: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle.
16:20:58 <ais523> ^source
16:20:58 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
16:21:13 <danil> ^source
16:21:13 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
16:21:17 <ais523> danil: fungot doesn't actually know English, so you have to express it in a language fungot does understand
16:21:17 <fungot> ais523: t-rex, i left a party early to go have a bath, and there i don't feel like i look down and notice you're not there
16:21:47 <danil> fungot: What language do you speak?
16:21:47 <fungot> danil: to turn back time and live again with your sweetie! i'm sure one will look for them, i have come up with a " i have lots, probably! if not, we can make the cutest cards ever for a series of puns.
16:22:11 <danil> Oh, a buisness deal with a bot!?
16:22:16 <ais523> ^ul (Underload! ):*:*:*S
16:22:16 <fungot> Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload!
16:22:27 <ais523> also brainfuck but it's harder to write programs in that quickly
16:22:38 <ais523> `! bf_txtgen brainfuck!
16:22:39 <danil> what is Underload
16:22:42 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
16:22:44 <HackEgo> 105 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>>.<++.>-.>+++++++.+++++.<+++++.<+++.>---.>---.>+++++.-. [171]
16:22:55 <danil> Hi, HackEgo
16:23:17 <ais523> hackego is our main esoteric programming language interpretation bot
16:23:28 <ais523> although people normally use it for messing around rather than for actually running esolang programs
16:23:29 <danil> Oh.
16:23:38 <b_jonas> I wanted to ask some vague questions about esoteric language development, in a rubber duck style.
16:23:39 <danil> How do you use him?
16:23:55 <ais523> to interpret an esolang, you type `! then the language name then the program
16:24:00 <danil> ^ul(Hi!):*:*:*S
16:24:07 <ais523> need a space
16:24:12 <ais523> after ^ul
16:24:29 <danil> ^ul (Hi!):*:*:*S
16:24:29 <fungot> Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!
16:24:48 <danil> !brainfuck +-
16:24:58 <ais523> +- doesn't produce any visible output
16:25:06 <ais523> also you'd need `! brainfuck +-
16:25:12 <ais523> `! brainfuck +[.+]
16:25:13 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/brainfuck: not found
16:25:17 <ais523> err, need a cell width
16:25:20 <ais523> `! bf8 +[.+]
16:25:21 <HackEgo> ​. \
16:25:33 <danil> ! bf8 +[.++]
16:25:43 <ais523> you missed the `
16:25:56 <danil> `! bf8 +[.++]
16:25:57 <HackEgo> ​.
16:26:02 <b_jonas> Suppose I have a simple core esoteric language, which doesn't have much IO facilities, plus a standard library, which can have optional parts, for doing IO. The library has an interface that matches the language features, so you could give the same interface as the library functions have if you wrote those functions in that language based implemented from any reasonable other IO facilities, built-in or otherwise.
16:26:13 <danil> Yeh..
16:26:25 <b_jonas> Sort of like how C has a core language with not much IO facilities, plus a standard library, only this one is esoteric.
16:26:31 <danil> ok..
16:26:34 <ais523> `! bf8 +++++[->++++++<]>++[.+]
16:26:34 <HackEgo> ​ !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ
16:26:46 <danil> What was that for?
16:26:55 <ais523> danil: trying to produce useful output with a fairly short program
16:27:03 <danil> ^source
16:27:03 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
16:27:11 <b_jonas> The core language is rather simple, which I like. Would it ruin the beauty of that simplicity to provide such an IO library?
16:27:21 <danil> Ok...
16:27:30 <ais523> although I don't get why it doesn't start with space
16:27:44 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it does
16:27:48 <danil> ye...
16:27:56 <ais523> it starts with <HackEgo> ​ !" for me
16:28:07 <ais523> anyway, I have a meeting now, bye everyone
16:28:14 <danil> Bye
16:28:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: meeting).
16:28:19 <b_jonas> ais523: right, there's a space after the header hackego always ouputs to avoid triggering other bots
16:28:35 <danil> Ok.
16:28:44 <danil> I need Lunch. Bye
16:28:56 <danil> Quit: lunch
16:29:20 <danil> Done.
16:29:35 <danil> Now what programming language fungot uses?
16:29:35 <fungot> danil: and in the book, i tell people that the key to a good diet! she never did in the past. now i'll have that one, the one on a boat can float along for years without crew or sails or a working knowledge, you can never again be able to look in a mirror
16:29:58 <danil> hey, how do i disable f*****
16:30:22 <b_jonas> danil: it's implemented in befunge. you can write macros for it in brainfuck and underload.
16:32:00 <danil> I mean, who made fungoat
16:32:14 <int-e> fungot cannot be disabled, but you can sneak invisible characters in and confuse it.
16:32:29 <danil> how do i do that
16:32:40 <int-e> it's fizzie's creation I believe.
16:33:01 <int-e> fungоt <- unicode is also an option
16:33:07 <danil> how many bots are their?
16:33:13 <int-e> `unidecode о
16:33:14 <HackEgo> ​[U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O]
16:33:40 <danil> `unidecode ao
16:33:40 <HackEgo> ​[U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O]
16:33:44 <int-e> `prefixes
16:33:46 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
16:33:55 <int-e> not all of those are still here
16:34:03 <danil> whos lambdabot?
16:34:17 <int-e> > [1..]
16:34:19 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
16:34:22 <danil> EgoBot !
16:34:35 <danil> >[23..]
16:34:51 <int-e> spacenotoptional
16:35:03 <danil> Huh?
16:35:15 <danil> >[2..]
16:35:19 <int-e> > [23..]
16:35:22 <lambdabot> [23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,...
16:35:29 -!- jaboja has joined.
16:35:39 <danil> > [24..]
16:35:41 <lambdabot> [24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,...
16:35:50 <danil> YES!
16:36:03 <danil> whos jbot
16:36:04 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
16:36:06 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
16:36:28 <danil> what programming language is THAT!
16:36:59 <int-e> Haskell.
16:37:17 <danil> ohhhhhh! Why Haskell in esolang?
16:37:34 <int-e> @metar lowi
16:37:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 021520Z 26007KT 9999 -RA FEW080 SCT100 BKN150 17/11 Q1019 NOSIG
16:37:43 <int-e> this, and it relays messages
16:37:47 <danil> what is that
16:37:54 <int-e> @google metar
16:37:56 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
16:38:08 <danil> @metar ohh
16:38:31 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR is more useful, I guess
16:38:40 <danil> @metar pirr
16:38:40 <lambdabot> No result.
16:38:50 <int-e> you need to provide an ICAO airport code
16:38:53 <danil> @metar PIR
16:39:22 <danil> BTW, WHAT DID @METAR LOWI DO?
16:39:30 <int-e> @metar kpir
16:39:30 <lambdabot> KPIR 021453Z AUTO 31003KT 10SM CLR 11/08 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP108 T01060078 51012
16:39:54 <danil> WHY IS METAR NEEDED?
16:40:04 <danil> @metar RAP
16:40:07 <int-e> because everybody likes talking about the weather.
16:40:23 <danil> what does that message do?
16:40:38 <danil> @metar rap
16:40:52 <danil> @metar LAS
16:41:00 <int-e> icao has four letter codes.
16:41:41 <int-e> For most US airpoirts it's K followed by the IATA code, I believe.
16:41:55 <danil> @metar KLAS
16:41:55 <lambdabot> KLAS 021456Z 36015G25KT 330V030 10SM FEW180 20/M06 A2980 RMK AO2 SLP071 T02001061 51028
16:42:22 <danil> what does the above message from lambdabot mean?
16:42:54 <danil> @metar KRAP
16:42:54 <lambdabot> KRAP 021452Z 32005KT 10SM SCT039 BKN046 08/05 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP132 T00780050 53014
16:43:07 <danil> @metar KSFC
16:43:07 <int-e> it's 20°C, very dry, windy...
16:43:07 <lambdabot> No result.
16:43:26 <danil> How did you parse it?
16:43:34 <int-e> The 20/M06 part is temperature and dewpoint.
16:43:42 <int-e> anyway, see the METAR wikipedia page
16:43:52 <danil> I better do
16:44:04 <danil> @google metar
16:44:05 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
16:44:17 <danil> @wikipedia metar
16:44:17 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
16:44:22 <danil> @list
16:44:22 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
16:45:25 <danil> quit: reading longggggg wiki page
16:45:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:45:59 <danil> @METAR SFRUN
16:45:59 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
16:46:13 <danil> @metar SFRUN
16:46:27 <danil> whats the code for Russia?
16:48:11 <danil> @metar UCFM
16:48:11 <lambdabot> UCFM 021530Z 12005MPS 8000 BKN066CB 11/07 Q1011 R26/CLRD70 NOSIG
16:48:42 <danil> @metar oss
16:48:54 <danil> @metar UOSS
16:48:54 <lambdabot> No result.
16:49:00 <danil> @metar OSS
16:50:23 <danil> @metar UAFG
16:50:23 <lambdabot> No result.
16:50:31 <danil> @metar UAFG
16:50:31 <lambdabot> No result.
16:50:43 <danil> tHAT IS A AIRPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
16:52:12 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
16:53:03 -!- danil has joined.
16:53:14 <danil> @metar UAFS
16:53:14 <lambdabot> No result.
16:54:04 <danil> @metar UUEE
16:54:04 <lambdabot> UUEE 021530Z 07002MPS 9999 OVC017 04/02 Q1032 R24R/CLRD62 R24L/CLRD62 NOSIG
17:05:22 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
17:07:30 -!- `^_^v has joined.
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17:16:51 <danil> HI
17:19:29 <danil> fungot <- unicode
17:19:30 <fungot> danil: in a good story, they function in an undiagnosable way? i could have this hyper-evolved speaking that could convince anyone to do whatever i want!!
17:19:41 <danil> fungot
17:19:41 <fungot> danil: hey, i have unfocused, but at the end, to ask me what my favourite suffix.
17:19:59 <danil> fungot: Really?
17:23:25 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:23:27 <danil> fungot: say something?
17:24:06 <danil> ^style nethack
17:24:06 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
17:24:26 <danil> fungot Hi
17:24:38 <danil> ^ hi
17:24:51 <danil> ^ul (hi!)
17:25:03 <danil> nethack
17:26:29 <danil> @metar KRAP
17:26:30 <lambdabot> KRAP 021552Z 35007KT 10SM FEW046 08/05 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP133 T00780050
17:30:41 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
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17:35:11 <Vorpal> PDFs from professional organizations that still read "Microsoft Word - whatever.doc" as their title... Why
17:39:08 <fizzie> You want a S in that ul.
17:39:09 <fizzie> ^ul (hi!)S
17:39:09 <fungot> hi!
17:39:28 <fizzie> There's also a thing where it only answers one person at most three or four times in a row, to stop loops.
17:41:01 <Vorpal> fizzie: hi
17:41:20 <Vorpal> fizzie: how are you? any new panoramas?
17:42:08 <danil> fizzie: thanks!
17:42:21 <danil> ^ul(hi!)S
17:42:39 <danil> ^ul (hi!)S
17:42:39 <fungot> hi!
17:42:49 <Vorpal> fizzie: I have taken some (using the built in function on the phone) but I have not yet uploaded it anywhere
17:43:20 <danil> ^ <-unicode
17:43:56 <danil> whatcha talkin` about
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17:44:32 <danil> ^ul (hi!)S*:*:*
17:44:32 <fungot> hi! ...out of stack!
17:45:03 <danil> j-bot
17:45:10 <danil> j-bot: hi
17:45:11 <j-bot> danil: |value error: hi
17:45:21 <danil> jb: help
17:45:33 <danil> jbot: help
17:45:55 <danil> j-bot: help
17:45:56 <j-bot> danil: |value error: help
17:46:12 <danil> j-bot: 2*2
17:46:13 <j-bot> danil: 4
17:46:22 <Vorpal> fizzie: Apparently the jpeg is 47 MB huh
17:46:44 <danil> What are you talking about?
17:47:01 <danil> j-bot: 2*2%
17:47:02 <j-bot> danil: |syntax error
17:47:02 <j-bot> danil: | 2 *2%
17:48:48 <danil> j-bot: 2*2*2*2*2
17:48:49 <j-bot> danil: 32
17:49:20 <danil> Oh, manager...
17:49:43 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
17:49:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Mm, probably, but I don't have a list anywhere. I've been mostly defaulting to using the phone's built-in thing as well. I had that home-built panorama head for the previous Sorta-Real Camera, but it doesn't fit the Real Camera.
17:50:26 <Vorpal> fizzie: I went to a nature reserve that was a previous forest fire area (big forest fire) a couple of years ago. Very different nature
17:50:38 <Vorpal> Should upload some pictures somewhere. Dropbox may work
17:50:44 -!- danil has joined.
17:51:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: We went to Scotland again this summer, I'm sure I took some photos there.
17:51:23 <danil> j-bot: 1112234578*11111111
17:51:24 <j-bot> danil: 12358161854196158
17:52:04 * danil HI
17:52:53 <danil> Is'nt this channel offtop
17:53:04 <danil> always
17:53:08 <Vorpal> not always
17:53:29 <fizzie> Often, though.
17:53:37 <danil> b_jonass
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17:54:46 <Vorpal> fizzie: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ie7mmypeovlr1n2/AADV2B4P4Kd66X_HXXbDI-T2a?dl=0
17:55:22 -!- danil has joined.
17:56:16 <Vorpal> fizzie: hopefully I shared in the proper way. I think dropbox redesigned the interface or something, doesn't work like I remember it
17:56:54 <danil> I have a little ontop question
17:57:02 <Vorpal> danil: sure, what is it?
17:57:21 <danil> Why are esolangs needed?#
17:57:40 <Vorpal> danil: why is any hobby needed?
17:58:11 <danil> so esolangs are hobbies. I met a dev who used esolangs to get money.
17:58:33 <Vorpal> ...how?
17:58:43 <Vorpal> I think they can be educational as well
17:59:19 <Vorpal> You can learn about computing in the restricted domain of esolangs. Or learn to write a compiler more easily than for a real language.
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18:00:03 <danil> So, his manager gave him Money per line of code. To make a simple program he got a esolang which a) obfuscated his code b) was longer then even java
18:00:32 <fizzie> Sounds to me you don't need a different language for that.
18:00:38 <fizzie> Anyway, by one of the popular definitions, if practical use is the primary intention, it isn't an esolang.
18:00:50 <fizzie> How our wiki puts it is: "An esoteric programming language, or esolang, is a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical use."
18:00:53 <Vorpal> huh. Well obviously his manager doesn't understand good coding practice. Also that is a shitty way to get paid
18:00:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Whatever you did seems to have worked. Looks nice. Not that different from some parts of Finland.
18:01:09 <Vorpal> fizzie: all the trees are dead. Forest fire.
18:01:23 <danil> Acttually, a Brainf interpreter is easier to make than a BASIC one
18:01:27 <Vorpal> fizzie: it is not that they lost their leaves for the winter
18:01:52 <Vorpal> fizzie: the landscape felt kind of spooky. Lots of signs about increased risk of falling trees and such.
18:02:13 <Vorpal> danil: indeed! so good for education to learn the basics of interpreter writing
18:02:26 <Vorpal> optimising brainfuck compiler is quite interesting too
18:02:26 <danil> correct.
18:02:29 <zzo38> I would prefer to be the payment by a fixed amount, regardless of how large it is or how much time it takes, assuming the program is good.
18:02:42 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
18:03:28 <danil> Well, what do Water Supply managers now about Coding & computers. A misterious box with weird lamps.
18:03:48 <Vorpal> hah
18:04:22 <danil> BTW, it was a anecdote from a guy's forum. Could be true, though
18:04:33 <Vorpal> I prefer the way I work. Paid a fixed monthly salary and having a reasonably secure job (i.e. not just for a single project)
18:04:58 <danil> I also. Only i am a student not a adult.
18:05:38 <zzo38> I think pay one fixed amount per project is better, rather than per month or per hour or whatever
18:06:03 <danil> Both of you are right i n some way
18:06:14 <Vorpal> zzo38: only if you work on a project basis, as supposed to continued development of a large product
18:06:32 <danil> OK.
18:07:00 <danil> Vorpal: told you this channel goes offtop
18:07:29 <Vorpal> danil: yes I only said: danil> Is'nt this channel offtop <danil> always <Vorpal> not always
18:07:41 <Vorpal> I never disputed "sometimes" or even "often"
18:08:51 <Vorpal> danil: mind you, it isn't as if we are interrupting some on topic stuff that is going on at the same time
18:09:45 <danil> Sorry. I always do that
18:10:10 <danil> Ahhhh! My IRC clien is slowwing down....
18:10:13 <Vorpal> always do what?
18:10:22 <Vorpal> huh
18:10:29 <Vorpal> bad internet?
18:10:32 <danil> Be to dramatic
18:10:49 <danil> Na, Buggy Linux + Buggy IRC
18:11:17 <danil> Ubuntu is slow
18:11:26 <Vorpal> using ubuntu atm. Ubuntu LTS
18:11:30 <Vorpal> on a core 2 duo laptop
18:11:33 <Vorpal> works fine
18:11:42 <Vorpal> upgraded it with an SSD, but that is it
18:11:47 <danil> Ubuntu 17.04 Acer Aspire V5
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18:12:05 <danil> I hate LTS. I'm bleeding edge
18:12:09 <Vorpal> danil: 16.04 LTS, Thinkpad from ~2009
18:12:25 <Vorpal> oh you would hate what I run on my desktop
18:12:29 <Vorpal> Debian stable
18:12:45 <danil> What?
18:12:47 <Vorpal> also you should totally use arch or gentoo then. Probably arch
18:13:07 <Vorpal> "what" in response to what?
18:13:22 <danil> I use OpenSuSe(12) on my Desktop
18:13:43 <danil> Vorpal: Are you a GPL activist?
18:13:53 <Vorpal> yeah I like debian stable and ubuntu lts. Means it just works except when I upgrade every two or three years.
18:14:10 <Vorpal> no, but I used GPL for my own befunge-98 interpreters
18:14:20 <danil> LTS for me is too stable...
18:14:28 <danil> I like crashing Linux
18:14:39 <Vorpal> actually this LTS has some annoying bugs with the old intel graphics of this laptop
18:15:01 <Vorpal> specifically the on resume from suspend chrome starts flickering black. Firefox is fine
18:15:04 <danil> I'm a Beer Liscence Activist. Like BSD liscense also
18:15:13 <danil> I LOVE FIREFOX.
18:15:26 <danil> I always use AMD
18:15:41 <Vorpal> meh, they are just browsers. As long as they can run scriptmonkey and stylish, whatever
18:16:08 <Vorpal> (greasemonkey/tampermonkey, depending on browser)
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18:16:54 <danil> Yeah. Suppose your right. I Just installed a new IRC client called Polari. Everything does not work
18:17:02 <danil> now
18:17:08 <Vorpal> danil: I use hexchat. I used xchat before that.
18:17:18 <Vorpal> it just works
18:17:39 <Vorpal> I don't want to spend all my time making computers work. I rather be productive with them.
18:18:00 <danil> I couldnt configure hexchat. It was confusing. I now just use the Ubuntu Chat app
18:18:13 <Vorpal> really? huh
18:18:30 <danil> Ubuntu Chat just works
18:18:45 <danil> At least for now
18:18:53 <Vorpal> ubuntu chat? what is that?
18:19:14 <danil> Chat Application
18:19:30 <Vorpal> well duh, but what is it based on? Pidgin?
18:19:43 <Vorpal> Mind you I run ubuntu and debian with MATE. Not a fan of the default ubuntu unity thing
18:19:59 <Vorpal> thought ubuntu bundled pidgin
18:20:06 <danil> Nah. More quicker and agile. I am using KDE with Unity apps
18:20:50 <danil> Chat is quicker than a pidgeon. Pidgeon's are slow and dangerous
18:20:57 <Vorpal> eh, this hardware couldn't handle that
18:21:23 <Vorpal> I actually run cinamon on my desktop, instead of mate. Switched when upgrading debian most recently
18:21:30 <danil> I just installed kubuntu-desktop through terminal.#
18:21:52 <danil> I am a KDE fanatic.
18:22:03 <Vorpal> danil: the GUI is just a terminal multiplexer for most of what I do.
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18:22:46 <\oren\_> Vorpal: that's why I use the most minimal (in terms of resources) gui i can
18:22:57 <\oren\_> so, LXDE or XFCE
18:23:22 <Vorpal> \oren\_: there are enough GUI programs I use. Image editing, web browser, IDEs. That sort of stuff.
18:23:32 <FreeFull> i3wm with a random assortment of programs
18:24:40 <Vorpal> could probably work just as well as MATE, LXDE or XFCE yes
18:25:01 <Vorpal> Just the inertia of learning a new system, when the keyboard shortcuts are ingrained in your fingers
18:25:02 <\oren\_> for a while i was using two computers. one that didn't run a desktop at all, which i dialed into from the other, which was running puppy linux
18:26:33 <Vorpal> bbl
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18:28:09 <danil> Everyone calls me a greybeard
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18:29:15 <\oren\_> danil: being a greybeard pays well doesn't it
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18:54:19 <danil> THE GUI IS A TERMMINAL MULTIPLEXER
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19:08:48 <Cthulhux> <\oren\_> Vorpal: that's why I use the most minimal (in terms of resources) gui i can << twm?
19:09:03 <Cthulhux> because everything other than twm uses more resources.
19:09:17 <Cthulhux> {yes, even that shiny i3wm}
19:09:41 * Cthulhux is still considering between stumpwm and windowmaker
19:10:03 <Cthulhux> those gnome wannabes are too apple'ish
19:10:41 <Cthulhux> also: <danil> Ahhhh! My IRC clien is slowwing down.... < write your own one :D
19:10:56 <int-e> have you considered running without a window manager...
19:11:12 <int-e> (no, I'm not really serious, but it does seem to be a valid question ;-) )
19:11:18 <Cthulhux> a TTY is not a minimal GUI!
19:11:24 <Cthulhux> because it's not a GUI :x
19:12:28 <int-e> Cthulhux: you can run X without a window manager
19:12:35 <myname> i should look up if i3wm uses more ressources than herbstluft
19:12:36 <int-e> you'll end up placing everything manually though
19:13:01 <int-e> because, uh, placing and optionally decorating windows is one of the main tasks of window managers.
19:13:03 <Cthulhux> i3wm *does* use more resources than twm.
19:13:52 <int-e> and by "placing manually" I mean passing -geometry options to everything.
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19:41:31 <zzo38> I currently use i3wm, but may later write my own.
19:44:57 <Cthulhux> don't.
19:45:15 <Cthulhux> i mean, you'll learn a lot, but: don't. :D there are too many WMs already.
19:45:47 <Cthulhux> (i miss the good old times when everyone wrote text editors, not wms..)
19:48:37 <\oren\_> speaking of which I need to finish my text editor
19:49:41 <Cthulhux> :D
19:50:30 <Cthulhux> i need to finish my xmarks alternative. and my gopher client. and my irc client. and my text editor. and my reddit bot. and my two file managers.
19:50:32 <Cthulhux> i won.
19:51:08 <int-e> I'm pretty sure zzo38 is winning the local vapourware contest.
19:51:44 <Cthulhux> you don't know the list of projects i haven't even STARTED yet!
19:52:05 <int-e> Then again, maybe Feather counts for a dozen ordinary vapourware projects.
19:53:20 <ais523> int-e: it's in an earlier stage than vapourware
19:53:34 <ais523> vapourware normally has the advantage of at least being known to be theoretically possible to write
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20:13:07 <zzo38> No, I might write a window manager. That way I can learn how it is working, but also just to put the stuff I wanted (I don't need all of the features of i3, and is also missing some thing I wanted), but also just in case I want to do some day, I might or might not I don't know. You can use X without a window manager, which can be useful if you only need one window, I suppose.
20:13:48 <zzo38> What is your xmarks alternative, gopher client, irc client, and others, aredoing what? I wrote a IRC client already and more than one gopher client
20:14:07 <zzo38> (What is xmarks anyways?)
20:15:52 <int-e> *googles* a bookmarks manager with synchronisation facilities?
20:19:32 <zzo38> Anyways I do not use the i3 menu, nor the status bar it comes with; I wrote my own status bar program for use with i3bar, and just use the command shell in xterm if I want to start other programs, so xterm and xrefresh are the only programs I have added keybindings to start them.
20:20:17 <Cthulhux> int-e: yup, but without restriction to one browser
20:20:34 <Cthulhux> synching the built-in browser bookmarks
20:20:42 <Cthulhux> nothing else does that and xmarks sucks
20:20:43 <Cthulhux> :x
20:21:00 <Cthulhux> zzo38, why use i3 then?
20:21:04 <zzo38> I also added a program to display the process ID and window ID if the title is clicked with the right button.
20:21:39 <zzo38> Cthulhux: Well, the i3 menu and i3status are separate programs from i3wm anyways, and I have not installed those other programs. Mainly it is just the closest thing to what I wanted and is suitable for now.
20:21:49 <Cthulhux> hmm
20:22:20 <Cthulhux> i found i3wm too over-hyped
20:23:37 <zzo38> To use bookmarks outside of the browser though I just wrote a shell script which executes SQL queries to do it, although only with one browser; still, with the same SQL queries I can add them to work with Lynx and so on too rather than only Firefox if I wanted to, easily enough.
20:25:40 <zzo38> Do you think this look good enough to you or don't?
20:26:12 <zzo38> Why do you need two file managers?
20:27:10 <Cthulhux> one as a clone of windows 3.11's good old fileman.exe (it was better than young people think)
20:27:20 <Cthulhux> one as a better tc/mc/far manager/whatever
20:27:21 <Cthulhux> :)
20:28:10 <zzo38> Do you mean like a orthodox file manager?
20:28:31 <Cthulhux> pretty much, yes
20:28:57 <Cthulhux> i mainly use them on windows, but the one of my choice (currently, speedcommander) still lacks some features *for me*
20:29:07 <Cthulhux> so i thought it would be easy
20:29:11 <Cthulhux> spoiler: it wasn't
20:29:24 <ais523> I hardly used fileman.exe when I used Windows 3.1
20:29:31 <ais523> pretty much just for creating directories
20:29:39 <Cthulhux> i used fileman a lot on windows 9x
20:29:41 <ais523> nearly always I opened files via File|Open in the program that read them
20:29:45 <Cthulhux> better than crapplorer
20:30:01 <Cthulhux> it actually still would be, if win10 would support 16-bit applications
20:30:01 <Cthulhux> :/
20:30:25 <Cthulhux> it had dual panels!
20:30:33 <zzo38> I use Linux and do not use any file manager, since, can just using the command shell
20:30:34 <Cthulhux> something microsoft thought nobody would want anymore
20:30:56 <int-e> hmm wasn't it basically a graphical norton commander
20:30:59 <Cthulhux> i can use "the command shell" on windows too (the powershell is actually rather handy), but i don't want to :D
20:31:13 * int-e forgot
20:31:57 <Cthulhux> int-e: http://www.mi.uni-koeln.de/c/mirror/www.igd.fhg.de/www/grz/mswin/awfntdev/fileman.gif
20:32:04 <Cthulhux> <3 lovely
20:32:14 <Cthulhux> no bullshit, just file management.
20:32:20 <ais523> zzo38: I normally use a shell on Linux for file management
20:32:29 <Cthulhux> ok, and a WinZip plugin on the screenshot
20:32:31 <ais523> sometimes I use Nautilus, though
20:33:03 <int-e> Cthulhux: oh I see, it had the tree part... yes I miss that as well.
20:33:15 <Cthulhux> *sigh*
20:33:16 <int-e> . o O ( it's still there in regedit ;-) )
20:33:34 <Cthulhux> i have a half-working version ready
20:33:36 <Cthulhux> in delphi :x
20:33:43 <Cthulhux> no menus yet.
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20:34:17 <Cthulhux> (ha, on-topic! because who still uses delphi, except me?)
20:34:45 <zzo38> I sometimes use QuickBASIC for writing DOS programs
20:35:38 <zzo38> (Including MIXPC, which is mentioned on the esolang wiki article about MIX (Knuth), because it is an implementation of that instruction set.)
20:36:02 <int-e> why did they discontinue borland pascal for windows anyway?
20:36:28 <Cthulhux> freepascal works
20:37:27 <zzo38> Is there a free compiler for DOS that will work in real mode?
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20:40:51 <Cthulhux> for which language?
20:40:53 <zzo38> I put on my computer on the status bar, the number of email messages, the system load, the memory usage, and the current date/time. I did not put temperature because I do not have a driver for it.
20:41:15 <zzo38> Cthulhux: BASIC, although a different programming language might do too
20:41:16 <ais523> zzo38: do you want the compiler itself to run on DOS real mode? or do you want its /output/ to run on DOS real mode?
20:41:39 <Cthulhux> FASM?
20:41:53 <zzo38> ais523: The output program. I would want the compiler also to, but if it doesn't, it could be OK as long as the output program does run on real mode.
20:43:23 <int-e> developing programs under DOS, now there's a thing I do not miss a lot
20:43:28 <ais523> zzo38: "bruce's C compiler" runs on Linux and produces 8086 real mode output, and has an option to produce it as a DOS .COM file
20:43:41 <ais523> it probably runs on other OSes too (maybe even DOS itself)
20:43:55 <int-e> (because every second programming error ended up requiring a hard reboot)
20:44:08 <ais523> in terms of compilers that run on DOS real mode themselves, I'm not sure if there are any FLOSS compilers, but shareware compilers were fairly common back then
20:44:25 <ais523> IIRC Borland made a few
20:44:28 <zzo38> Well, DOS starts up much faster than Linux or Windows, so a hard reboot does not take as long
20:45:17 <Cthulhux> kolibrios is hella fast
20:45:38 <zzo38> I once installed FreeDOS and a database program on a computer, and when the CRT was turned on at the same time as turning on the computer, the database program is already ready by the time the picture is visible.
20:48:10 <ais523> this computer (running Linux) shuts down really fast, when I reboot the shutdown is faster than the "BIOS" (actually EFI) loading screen (which shows before the bootloader even starts running)
20:48:55 <Cthulhux> a computer running linux that can be shut down?
20:48:58 <Cthulhux> no systemd?:D
20:49:17 <ais523> nah, it has systemd, it just somehow seems to actually work in this configuration
20:50:05 <Cthulhux> wonderous times
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21:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> ugh
21:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> my shutdown has broken again actually
21:05:15 <Phantom_Hoover> fucking systemd
21:05:20 <Cthulhux> :DDD
21:05:39 <Cthulhux> tried _working_ operating systems, like virtually any non-linux?
21:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> pfffthahahaha
21:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry i didn't realise you were that much of a hipster
21:06:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i like having steam too much, i'm afraid
21:06:45 <Cthulhux> being called a "hipster" by people using a 2% desktop system
21:06:55 <Cthulhux> exactly my kind of joke
21:07:03 <Cthulhux> well, your loss.
21:07:12 <Phantom_Hoover> well if you mean windows or mac os then yeah obviously i've tried those
21:07:34 * Cthulhux uses windows, openbsd and freebsd
21:07:39 <Cthulhux> no systemd
21:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> >openbsd
21:07:42 <Cthulhux> perfect shutdown
21:07:43 <Cthulhux> :)
21:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover> >freebsd
21:07:47 <Phantom_Hoover> not a hipster
21:07:51 <Cthulhux> >working shutdown
21:07:57 <Cthulhux> i win again
21:08:15 <Cthulhux> also, playstations use freebsd as well
21:08:20 <Cthulhux> damn hipsters!
21:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> because as we all know it's impossible to run linux without systemd
21:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> that's a hilarious line of reasoning really
21:08:52 <Cthulhux> poettering shitware is slowly infecting every inch of the gnu/linux fail ecosystem
21:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean, everything you can run on freebsd you can run on linux
21:08:59 <Cthulhux> see firefox/pulseaudio
21:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> aaahahahahaha
21:09:01 <Cthulhux> see GNOME
21:09:03 <Cthulhux> etc
21:09:15 <Cthulhux> <Phantom_Hoover> i mean, everything you can run on freebsd you can run on linux << really? ZFS as a root file system? :P
21:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> right so explain to me the desktop environment you're using on freebsd that doesn't run on linux
21:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i'll wait
21:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> zfs is nice but it's not a game-changer
21:09:50 <Cthulhux> zfs *is* a game-changer. (ok, maybe not on a desktop)
21:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> lol
21:10:24 <Cthulhux> nothing you do in freebsd will ever require any poettering shitware
21:10:24 <Phantom_Hoover> even on a server you don't need it as root
21:10:32 <Cthulhux> enjoy the remaining three hipster distros
21:10:33 <Cthulhux> :p
21:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> nothing you do on linux requires poeterring shitware
21:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> idk why you can't grasp this
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21:11:08 <Cthulhux> how large is the userbase of non-poettering shitware distros (no udev, no pulseaudio, no shitstemd)?
21:11:11 <Cthulhux> >hipster
21:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> idk, can you demonstrate it's smaller than bsd's?
21:11:48 <Cthulhux> a large part of the web traffic is routed through freebsd (netflix and whatsapp)
21:11:50 <Cthulhux> won!
21:12:02 <Cthulhux> so yes, i can
21:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> lol
21:12:19 <Phantom_Hoover> so subtly moving the goalposts away from desktop use
21:12:23 <Cthulhux> the main point is still: your fail os fails to shutdown
21:12:28 <Cthulhux> so much better, i see
21:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i think you're missing my actual point
21:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> which is, lol you're 13 and think os pissing contests are cool
21:13:02 <Cthulhux> your actual point being "hurr durr i COULD use a working os but NOBODY USES BSD"
21:13:23 <Cthulhux> because working computers are sooooo 90s.
21:13:23 <Cthulhux> :)
21:14:01 <Cthulhux> <Phantom_Hoover> pfffthahahaha
21:14:02 <Cthulhux> <Phantom_Hoover> which is, lol you're 13
21:14:11 * Cthulhux nods
21:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i think poettering's a cunt too but i don't go around embarrassing myself by blabbering about 'shitstemd'
21:14:38 <Cthulhux> yup, you try to bash working software instead
21:14:42 <Cthulhux> clever
21:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> lol
21:14:51 <Phantom_Hoover> where did i bash bsd
21:14:56 <Cthulhux> >try to
21:15:15 <\oren\_> i prefer to use alsa
21:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i always use alsa
21:16:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i've only used pulse on this machine to run unity games after they fucked up and made them require pulse
21:16:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (until i found a workaround)
21:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> presumably you couldn't run those games on freebsd at all, idk
21:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> escaping lennart's bullshit would be nice but not worth rebooting to windows every time i wanted to play anything
21:18:56 <Cthulhux> because you can't reboot :)
21:19:16 <Phantom_Hoover> lol
21:19:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think the shutdown's even really broken, there's some sort of transient permissioning problem
21:20:21 <\oren\_> Phantom_Hoover: why not just use separate linux and windows computers
21:20:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
21:20:49 <\oren\_> arms not strong enough to carry two laptops?
21:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i have a desktop
21:21:38 <\oren\_> Phantom_Hoover: then why not two
21:22:19 <Cthulhux> maybe just one desk
21:23:24 <Phantom_Hoover> definitely, i barely have room for a tiny desk in this room let alone two towers
21:24:23 <\oren\_> Cthulhux: well he could have a switch that changes which computer the peripherals are connected to, my dad had one back in the day
21:25:47 <\oren\_> it had two outlets for mouse, keyboard and screen, and one input, and a big dial that rotated between 1 and 2
21:26:04 <Cthulhux> that still requires room for a second computer
21:26:49 <\oren\_> Cthulhux: I guess but it doesn't need room for a second desk at least
21:28:05 <\oren\_> actually would such a switch thing even work with complex protocols of USB and hdmi? maybe it would have to have a microprocessor in it
21:28:45 <\oren\_> back in the 90's we used PS/2 and VGA connecters
21:33:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\_: the search term is "KVM switch", which stands for "keyboard, video, mouse" (in a strange order)
21:34:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: presumably it was just a KV switch originally, then mice became popular so were added onto the end
21:35:36 <wob_jonas> \oren\_: these days instead people connect the keyboard, mouse and video outlets to small computers with microprocessors that give you a remote control ability through the internet for administrative access. remote management console or something. sometimes they also add a relay to power cycle the machine.
21:36:13 <fizzie> I used to use an external HDMI switch when I had a monitor without enough inputs. I don't think it had much of smarts, though.
21:36:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: maybe, but the mouse was already popular 25 years ago for non-game computers, and you don't use a KVM switch for a game console, so I'm not sure if that ever really happened
21:37:11 <wob_jonas> sometimes you get away without a switch by connecting two computers to a monitor through two different types of inputs. with like four different types of video input these days (VGA, DVI, HDMI, displayport), that's often easy by accident.
21:37:26 <wob_jonas> and having two keyboards (or just using the built-in keyboard of a notebook) is easier than having two monitors
21:38:24 <wob_jonas> but then, these days some people also just use multiple monitors
21:39:18 <fizzie> Many monitors have more than one of a given type of input, at least if you go a bit fancier. This one has 2x HDMI, one DP and one mini-DP.
21:39:24 <wob_jonas> my father, for example, is a sysadmin, so sometimes he works on his own notebook plus two other local computers at the same time to install stuff, in that case he can connect two computers to two monitors and either use only the built-in small display of the notebook or connect using two different types of input
21:39:46 <wob_jonas> fizzie: can it actually switch between those two HDMI by some button presses on the monitor?
21:39:51 <fizzie> Sure.
21:40:06 <wob_jonas> nice
21:40:07 <wob_jonas> then that too
21:40:12 <wob_jonas> I didn't know that was common on monitors
21:40:15 <fizzie> It's even got two soft keys you can bind to a specific action, including a specific output.
21:40:23 <fizzie> It really made that HDMI switch redundant.
21:40:36 <fizzie> Okay, the switch had 4 HDMI inputs on it, but I don't have that many sources.
21:40:51 <fizzie> This is a Dell U2515H, for reference.
21:41:38 <wob_jonas> yeah, but then all these different connection types get complicated because you often need at least passive converters (the video cards do the actual conversion, the passive converter just connects the wires)
21:42:10 <wob_jonas> why do we have both hdmi and displayport, as separate types?
21:42:44 <fizzie> It does get pretty complicated, especially since all of them have different version numbers.
21:43:00 <wob_jonas> I understand that VGA only does analog video signals, which is why we need DVI, which can do analog or digital, and that DVI doesn't do sound in the same cable as video, which is why we have HDMI
21:43:49 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sure, I know the same kind of connector port can carry multiple different signals, so there's DVI with fewer or more ports, depending on whether you want analog or digital, and... something about more than 8 bits of color depth or some such magic? I'm not sure frankly
21:44:31 <fizzie> It's very specific. E.g. you need at least DisplayPort 1.3 to have enough bandwidth for a 3840x2160 resolution.
21:44:59 <fizzie> Or 1.2. Or something, I don't remember anymore.
21:45:14 <fizzie> There's also something you need HDMI 2.0 for, over HDMI 1.4.
21:45:35 <wob_jonas> and while we're there, why do we have both USB3 (two speeds of that, I think) and ESATA for fast communication between a computer and a storage device?
21:45:40 <fizzie> Apparently that's the 4K resolution thing, and the DisplayPort version was something else.
21:46:12 <wob_jonas> ah, so maybe you need a fancier cable for extra-high resolution with high color depth
21:46:15 <wob_jonas> that could make sense
21:46:28 <fizzie> There's an USB 3.1 as well, and it comes in "gen 1" and "gen 2" varieties.
21:47:20 <wob_jonas> fizzie: oh, I thought we only had USB 3 and USB 3.1
21:47:22 <fizzie> USB 3.1 gen 2 can do five speeds: low speed, full speed, high speed, superspeed and superspeed+.
21:47:32 <\oren\_> what is the maximum VGA screen size?
21:47:34 <wob_jonas> do USB 3 and USB 3.1 use the same physical connector?
21:47:44 <fizzie> It's just a little funny how "full speed" is like the second-slowest option.
21:48:08 <\oren\_> I guess since it's an analog signal it's limited physically rather than my protocol
21:48:12 <wob_jonas> fizzie: oh, that's like how "double density" is the small capacity floppy disk
21:48:40 <wob_jonas> the one nobody ever uses because high density floppies are supported everywhere and are cheap and have twice as much data
21:48:54 <wob_jonas> you can still read double density in ordinary drives, but you barely find any
21:49:00 <wob_jonas> I have seen one such floppy
21:49:06 <wob_jonas> so it at least exists
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21:54:12 <fizzie> If you wanted video out of a "mobile" device, it gets even more complex. There's that thing called MHL (actually, MHL 1, 2, 3 and superMHL) which sort of has the "semantics" of HDMI, but usually use either MHL-USB (micro-USB-based) or a specific mode of USB Type-C. Competing with the SlimPort/MyDP, which is basically DisplayPort integrated with micro-USB.
21:54:30 <fizzie> It's also very hard to find which devices support what.
21:55:44 <fizzie> At least the U in USB stands for "universal", so there's that.
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21:56:53 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yeah
21:57:10 <wob_jonas> USB is complicated
21:57:51 <wob_jonas> there are lots of different physical connectors, lots of bulit-in hardware level protocols so you can charge stuff or have stuff charged without complicated electronics and bootstrap the digital layer
21:58:21 <wob_jonas> and then there are multiple digital protocols, the USB/USB2 on one set of wires, the USB3 on a second set of wires, bootstrapped by USB2
22:00:01 <wob_jonas> and it's nice that USB3 is fast, but just try to find a motherboard that has two USB3 root hubs built in, meaning that it can do full-speed USB3 conversations on two different ports at the same time, without having to buy a separate USB3 extension card that you plug in to PCI express (of which there are also like six different speeds)
22:05:23 <int-e> hmm
22:05:25 <int-e> Bus 008 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
22:05:25 <int-e> Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
22:06:26 <fizzie> Oh, that reminds me of the whole thing with with M.2, which has a single connector that in theory can do PCIE 3.0 (x1 to x4), SATA 3.0 and USB 3.0, distinguished by various notches.
22:07:57 <fizzie> I was looking at M.2 SSDs, and the people making them don't really advertise which one of them they do, but the PCIE variants tend to be a lot faster than the SATA ones.
22:09:15 <wob_jonas> oh right, there's PCIE too
22:09:19 <int-e> however, the two usb3 plugs on the front are on the same USB bus, hrm.
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22:11:20 <fizzie> And "lsusb -t" is really confusing, I think there's some sort of a thing where, if you plug USB 2 and 3 devices into a USB 3 hub, the two kinds of devices end up as separate trees even though physically it's just one tree.
22:11:53 <fizzie> On the other hand, dumping photos out of the phone became a lot faster when I changed monitors.
22:12:11 <fizzie> (There's an USB hub in there, and the new one does 3.0.)
22:15:37 <wob_jonas> fizzie: no, those are physically two different trees. basically in an USB3 socket, there's some extra wires for USB3 data. the USB3 device sends data on those only, and uses the USB2 for power and bootstrapping power, if I understand correctly.
22:16:43 <wob_jonas> yes, some monitors have a USB hub built in. and my father has a monitor that didn't, but he permanently taped a small USB hub gadget onto it. instant monitor feature upgrade.
22:18:55 <wob_jonas> the drawback of that monitor is that if you turn off the monitor with the power switch, then suddenly you can't use the keyboard or mouse plugged into your computer through the monitor
22:19:13 <wob_jonas> that's not the one with the instant upgrade, but the monitor with the hub originally built in
22:28:48 <int-e> wob_jonas: ah I see. The board has two USB host controllers besides the one in the X99 chipset... that's how it got 2xUSB 3.0 and 1xUSB 3.1
22:29:14 <wob_jonas> int-e: two USB-3 controllers? because two USB-2 controllers is easy
22:29:47 <wob_jonas> but for USB-3 devices, one USB-3 controller usually gives more bandwidth than three USB-2 controllers
22:30:17 <wob_jonas> fo course, after a while, the rest of the computer can't keep up with the data either
22:30:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: http://sprunge.us/VcBB
22:30:26 <wob_jonas> such as the CPU or GPU or disks
22:30:27 <int-e> (this matches the MB documentation)
22:30:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't know which one of EHCI and UHCI and XHCI and whatever mean what, but ok
22:31:31 <int-e> wob_jonas: the xHCI is the USB 3.0 one, the other two in the chipset must be USB 2.0
22:31:53 <wob_jonas> ok
22:32:30 <int-e> anyway, I had not realized that this is special... nor have I ever exploited this so far.
22:32:48 <wob_jonas> int-e: that's not special
22:32:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: that says you have one USB3 and two USB2 controllers
22:33:00 <wob_jonas> that's typical
22:33:23 <int-e> wob_jonas: no, there's another USB 3.0 host and a USB 3.1 one in addition to that.
22:33:30 <wob_jonas> oh, nice
22:33:36 <wob_jonas> how new is that motherboard?
22:33:59 <wob_jonas> but doesn't EHCI mean USB 2?
22:34:35 <int-e> I meant the VIA and the ASMedia things
22:35:30 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh. but some of those are probably different software views of the same controller
22:35:43 <wob_jonas> if your motherboard actually had two independent controllers, then you'd see two of the same type
22:36:02 <wob_jonas> your OS probably just creates multiple different devices that view the same underlying hardware in different ways
22:36:08 <int-e> hmm, no it makes sense here.
22:36:14 <wob_jonas> possibly at different layers
22:36:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: do you have an extension card plugged in (such as via PCI express) that provides some of those?
22:37:01 <int-e> yes it's odd to have three vendors, but the X99 part of the core chipset, and the two additional ones are different USB versions.
22:37:22 <int-e> no I just bought a fairly expensive gaming motherboard
22:38:01 <wob_jonas> anyway, as for how to exploit that, get two external disk dockers, the ones in which you put a hard disk or solid state disk connected to the docking device with SATA or mini SATA or the other size of mini SATA, and the docking device is connected to your computer by USB 3 and to a power supply by a round power port
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22:38:56 <wob_jonas> int-e: is it real gaming, or just labeled as "gaming"? hardware people label the most ridiculous non-gaming equipment as "gaming" for some reason, including motherboards with built-in hardware RAID and keyboards with hard clicky keys for use by programmers
22:39:53 <wob_jonas> they add all sort of search terms so that if you search for either "gaming" in ebay or google or something, you find all their products, even the ones not for gaming
22:40:13 <int-e> https://us.msi.com/Motherboard/X99A-GAMING-7.html
22:40:37 <wob_jonas> also, nice
22:40:38 <int-e> I regarded it as a marketing label either way...
22:41:51 <wob_jonas> "Gaming Device Port"
22:41:56 <int-e> yeah, silly :)
22:43:25 <wob_jonas> ah, the Gaming Device Port has "3x more gold than regular connectors" and "10x longer lifetime when plugging/un-plugging"
22:43:40 <wob_jonas> but it's not clear if that refers to the PS2 port or an USB port
22:43:47 <wob_jonas> or even an audio port
22:44:02 <wob_jonas> or maybe all ports are gilded with gold
22:44:10 <int-e> so that's what it means... it refers to 1xPS/2 and 2xUSB 2.0
22:45:07 <int-e> and it's a total waste because those are the least moved plugs
22:45:38 <wob_jonas> not for a gamer who tries a new different type of fancy game controller every month
22:45:56 <int-e> but I can't complain, board has been stable, it has 8 slots and on board sound is decent... those were basically the things I cared about.
22:46:06 <int-e> 8 memory slots even
22:46:19 <int-e> I think all those left out words are a sign, good night.
22:46:22 <wob_jonas> and even when he doesn't buy anything new, he has to switch between the ordinary hand-held controller, Guitar Hero Rock Band controller, and the steering wheel and foot pedals
22:46:32 <wob_jonas> oh, 8 memory slots are nice
22:46:38 <wob_jonas> good nigth
22:46:56 <wob_jonas> it's a nice motherboard. not the one I'll buy, but nice.
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22:49:11 <boily> `5 w
22:49:17 <HackEgo> 1/2:onion//Onions are the bullies of the dinner plate. They can make you cry. \ eventually//Eventually we'll have a better wisdom here. \ lystrosaur//The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic. \ ring//Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
22:49:18 <boily> `n
22:49:19 <HackEgo> 2/2: \ gaspacho//You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
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23:35:51 <\oren\_> ♃ jupiter ♃
23:35:55 <\oren\_> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/914734726493102082
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23:42:47 <boily> HE\\OREN\。
23:46:44 <\oren\_> boily: are you excited for reusable rockets that can loft hundred-ton satellites?
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2017-10-03
00:00:59 <boily> \oren\: yup! anything that can haul ass into space is good.
00:01:10 <boily> and if it's reusable, then go for it!
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05:02:13 <shachaf> `? oerjan
05:02:15 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
05:02:54 <shachaf> `swrjan s/flame/knite/
05:02:57 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
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13:50:38 <potato44> does anyone know of any esolangs that use ascii control charactersas its commands?
13:51:32 <ais523> potato44: exclusively? or among other commands?
13:51:52 <ais523> gs2 tends to use a lot of characters in the 0-31 range, some of its most basic commands are there, but it has others out of the range
13:51:57 <potato44> ideally exclusively, but it depends on what other characters
13:53:09 <Taneb> Whitespace sort of almost counts
13:53:31 <ais523> Taneb: newline and tab are control characters, but space isn't
13:53:37 <potato44> I know of BENUL, but NUL is also a problomatic character
13:53:50 <Taneb> Hence "sort of almost"
13:54:02 <ais523> I can't think of a language that was specifically designed to use the control character range (there might be one that I don't know about), especially if you want the control characters to match the language semantics in some way
13:54:34 <ais523> there's a version of BF that uses character codes 1-8 as the commands, and is typically used internally in optimizing interpreters, but I don't really think that counts (especially as the number assignment is arbitrary)
13:55:24 <potato44> If there is an actual interpreter for that dialect of BF, that would be exactly what I want
13:55:48 <ais523> it's easy enough to write one
13:55:55 <potato44> as long as it also ignores the rest of ascii
13:56:02 <b_jonas> do you expect us to have interpreters for all trivial brainfuck substitutions? just take some reasonable brainfuck implementation and modify it.
13:56:33 <b_jonas> we have Brainfuck and Ook! interpreters, because Ook! is historically important, but the rest aren't important
13:56:41 <potato44> easy enough to write, but I'm not sure where the rules of PPCG fall on the allowability of it.
13:57:36 <ais523> potato44: I was suspecting this was related to the polyglot :-D
13:57:52 <potato44> ais523: it is
13:58:47 <ais523> that thing has somehow turned conventional #esoteric wisdom on its head by actually creating a market for a large quantity of trivial BF substitutions
13:59:49 <potato44> well, the other day I found some japanese guys github that had about a hlaf dozen each lazy substitutions for BF, Lazy K and a couple of other langs
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14:06:27 <potato44> found a lang that only recognises formfeed and vertical tab and then translates that to a javascript exec. Now to work out how exec works in javascript
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14:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stape]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53160 * StellatedHexahedron * (+1227) Created page with "'''Stape''' is office-supplies-based programming language, designed to be difficult to program in in new and interesting ways. It was created in 2017 by User: stellatedHexah..."
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15:26:00 <danil_> H
15:26:14 <danil_> anyone online?
15:26:22 <Taneb> I don't think so
15:26:33 <danil_> OK
15:27:45 <danil_> Bye
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15:28:36 <Hooloovo0> what
15:29:31 <ais523> danil was very upset at the topic not being 100% accurate, and thus maybe also takes sarcasm at face value?
15:31:38 <Hooloovo0> looks 100% correct to me
15:34:32 <b_jonas> in case anyone cares, in Magic: the Gathering, https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/ixalan-update-bulletin-2017-09-28 Ixalan Update Bulletin (summary of rules changes)
15:35:23 <ais523> I read it already
15:35:34 <ais523> Hooloovo0: it wasn't until I fixed it
15:35:42 <ais523> it claimed the channel was a hypercube
15:35:49 <ais523> which is a fairly inconsequential inaccuracy, really
15:36:05 <Taneb> I'm not sure I can reasonably demonstrate the channel isn't a hypercube
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15:36:59 <danil_> Anyone here now/
15:37:05 <Hooloovo0> still nope
15:37:36 <danil_> Why are people saying no? You are online yes?
15:37:54 <Hooloovo0> we are being facetious
15:38:00 <danil_> Pardon?
15:38:40 <danil_> This is not serious/
15:38:48 <danil_> @google metar
15:38:49 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
15:38:59 <danil_> @google facetious
15:39:00 <lambdabot> https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/facetious
15:39:33 <danil_> @google bear licsense
15:39:35 <lambdabot> http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/bearlic.html
15:39:35 <lambdabot> Title: Bear license - Wisconsin DNR
15:40:05 <danil_> Usefull, huh? calling google from IRC
15:40:29 <danil_> @google danil
15:40:30 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danil
15:40:41 <Hooloovo0> I mean it's kind of annoying to us
15:41:04 <danil_> Sorry.
15:41:22 <danil_> I did not mean too.
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15:50:37 <dan_> Hello!
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16:12:50 <dan_> Hello
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16:33:03 <dan_> Hi
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16:33:28 <Taneb> `quote insanity
16:33:29 <HackEgo> 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
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16:43:18 <b_jonas> I still hate how airplane tickets only give the departure and arrival time in local time for the airports. They should give either the timezone offset of that time, or an UTC datetime.
16:43:32 <b_jonas> They do this even for tickets that go to a different timezone.
16:43:52 <danil_> yes, i also.
16:43:57 <b_jonas> I'm currently reading the *easy* case, when I'm just traveling to Sweden and back, so both departure and arrival are in the Paris timezone.
16:44:09 <danil_> Why?
16:44:38 <danil_> Do you fly from Paris to Sweden
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16:47:06 <b_jonas> no, from Hungary to Sweden
16:47:33 <b_jonas> Paris is just the name I use for the timezone in modern times, because it's clearly the biggest city in this timezone
16:49:02 <b_jonas> Well, technically that's no longer true. These days Berlin and Madrid and Rome are the biggest.
16:49:17 <b_jonas> Maybe I should call it the Berlin timezone instead.
16:50:37 <Hooloovo0> I have a clock set to berlin time and not paris time
16:51:14 <b_jonas> Paris is biggest if you count greater Paris, including agglomerations.
16:51:27 <b_jonas> Which is probably the right measure for figuring out which is the most significant city in this context
16:51:37 <b_jonas> so Paris is probably the right name.
16:51:49 <LKoen> paris is literally surrounded by a wall though, so while all metropolitans grow, "paris intramuros" doesn't
16:52:49 <b_jonas> LKoen: yes, basically the city proper area is defined by how the local governments work, which is irrelevant here
16:52:55 <b_jonas> Paris is the most significant city
16:53:08 <b_jonas> (also, Berlin had a sort of strange history)
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17:11:29 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the biggest city in the Paris timezone?
17:11:29 <fungot> b_jonas: leprechauns are the most spectacular being _baluchitherium_ from the abyss before them, don't you see invisible things. you'll probably find one on the brilliant marble-sanded beaches of santraginus v, inhaling the heady sea vapors; you can read between it and forged odin's signature on the subject of towels. a world for himself a suit of oil-cloth or tarpaulin, and its transparent skin shows its face again.
17:11:59 <Taneb> b_jonas, I guess the answer is, unexpectedly, Dublin
17:12:09 <b_jonas> ^style europarl
17:12:09 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:12:13 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the biggest city in the Paris timezone?
17:12:14 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i will not go away unless we tackle them. i do not want these problems to spill over into other countries, thailand, from 2 to 14 october 2004? i am convinced that the foundation should be involved in discussions when there really is a scandal for any civilized country just to stand by and do nothing. one wonders where it finds the courage to resolve the problems suffered by citizens and their concerns ta
17:12:30 <Taneb> Or possibly Bangkok
17:12:36 <b_jonas> ok, that's avoiding this question more directly than the previous answer
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17:53:49 <\oren\> The biggest city in the paris timezone would probaby be the rhineland urban aglomeration wouldn't it
17:54:51 <b_jonas> \oren\: not by population I think
17:55:42 <\oren\> Hmm, Rhine-Ruhr region has 11 million
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17:56:04 <\oren\> ile-de-france has 12 million
17:58:46 <\oren\> seems like they're pretty close but the winner depends what data set you're looking at
17:59:00 <b_jonas> sure, at some point this gets a question of definition
17:59:25 <b_jonas> s/gets/gets to be/
18:04:04 <b_jonas> in any case, you can call the same timezone with multiple names
18:04:35 <b_jonas> so if you prefer to call it by some other big city within the timezone, feel free
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18:05:22 <\oren\> hmm, maybe we can just wait until there is continuous development along the Paris-Ruhr train line
18:06:14 <\oren\> then give some fancy name to said urban aglomeration
18:09:41 <\oren\> Megacity E or some shit
18:12:14 <\oren\> altho, by that point it would include the entire country of belgium probaby
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19:58:00 <Taneb> Is it weird that I wind up writing things like "translating to a double de Bruijn stack context" when I'm doing something for fun
19:58:46 <ais523> Taneb: I had to read up on a few mathematical papers to be able to parse Incident efficiently
20:00:03 <Taneb> ais523, nice
20:00:21 <Taneb> Although I'm making up terminology here
20:01:07 <Taneb> I'm not sure if de Bruijn stack is the word for what I'm doing, and honestly I'm not sure at all if I need the second one
20:03:32 <Taneb> What I'm doing is implementing System F in Agda
20:04:20 <ais523> with type annotations? or are you using some other method to make it theoretically possible?
20:04:26 <Taneb> Type annotations
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20:05:36 <Taneb> I'm using something like De Bruijn indices, but because it's Agda I want to statically check that I'm not going to underflow the stack, and furthermore I want to carry the variable's types about too
20:05:42 <Taneb> So hence a De Bruijn stack
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20:06:36 <Taneb> I need something similar at the type level, but for that I think I just need to know how many type variables I have lying around
20:07:57 <Taneb> (if I was doing System Fω I'd need to know the kinds of the type variables as well)
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20:12:37 <Taneb> I'd be very interested to know if what I'm calling the De Bruijn stack exists in the literature
20:12:42 <Taneb> (the the brown stack?)
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21:04:54 <\oren\> muhuhahahaha self-modifying C++
21:05:26 <\oren\> hmm, wait does it count if it has to be recompiled and rerun each time it modifies itself?
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21:06:35 <\oren\> i guess this isn't so self-modifying
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21:50:50 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think the word for that is "polymorphic"
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23:02:24 <boily> `5 w
23:02:30 <HackEgo> 1/2:context//context is a word with many meanings, depending on where it is used. \ fourth//Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication. \ atwp//According to Wikipedia, ATWP means "Air Transport White Paper". \ icfp//I see functorial people. \ brainf**k//There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinki
23:02:31 <boily> `n
23:02:31 <HackEgo> 2/2:ng of brainfuck.
23:02:46 <boily> no, I do not think about brainfuck.
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23:12:03 <wob_jonas> oh no! they're falsifying the will
23:12:12 <boily> wellob_jonas?
23:12:42 <wob_jonas> I'm listening to Gianni Schicci, the opera
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2017-10-04
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00:56:45 * boily pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch ♪
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02:42:49 <oerjan> `? forth
02:42:50 <HackEgo> forth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:42:53 <oerjan> `? fourth
02:42:54 <HackEgo> Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
02:43:01 <oerjan> `dowg fourth
02:43:10 <HackEgo> 10501:2017-03-24 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/fo{,u}rth; slwd fourth\\ wisdom//s,rt,urt,
02:43:28 <oerjan> wat
02:43:40 <oerjan> why would i do that.
02:43:59 <oerjan> `dowg forth
02:44:07 <HackEgo> 10501:2017-03-24 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/fo{,u}rth; slwd fourth\\ wisdom//s,rt,urt, \ 5407:2015-06-05 <oerjän> slashlearn forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
02:44:44 <shachaf> Wait, what's going on with that slwd?
02:45:00 <oerjan> it looks pretty broken.
02:46:15 <oerjan> oh i see.
02:46:32 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/fo{u,}rth
02:46:34 <HackEgo> No output.
02:46:37 <oerjan> `? forth
02:46:38 <HackEgo> Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
02:47:14 <oerjan> `? fourth wisdom
02:47:15 <HackEgo> ​.wisdoms other the all upon builds wisdom fourth The
02:47:39 <oerjan> that's the one i wanted to change. but i forgot to fix the mistake of moving `? forth
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04:44:31 <shachaf> `blessyou oerjan
04:44:32 <HackEgo> Bless you, oerjan. Bloerjan.
04:44:53 <oerjan> . o O ( but i wasn't sneezing )
04:45:01 <shachaf> gesoerjant
04:46:46 <shachaf> Blimey, oerjan. Bloerjan.
04:51:01 <oerjan> good morning shachaf
04:51:15 <shachaf> Good morning.
04:51:19 <oerjan> i was going to make that a portmanteau but there isn't a single common letter.
04:51:44 <shachaf> G'moerjan.
05:14:44 <shachaf> `q king
05:14:45 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: q: not found
05:14:51 <shachaf> `5 quote king
05:14:53 <HackEgo> 1/178:14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 40) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 73) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is
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05:15:09 <shachaf> `randquote king
05:15:10 <HackEgo> 975) <Gregor> Sgeo: That fact is so fun I can feel my pancreas kicking into overdrive.
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05:26:35 <Sgeo_> The king of kic
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06:57:07 <shachaf> `randquote \bking\b
06:57:08 <HackEgo> 516) <oklopol> king is something women are better at than men
06:57:15 <shachaf> `5 randquote \bking\b
06:57:17 <HackEgo> 1/0:
06:57:34 <shachaf> `5 nur randquote \bking\b
06:57:36 <HackEgo> 1/0:
06:57:45 <shachaf> Oh, right.
06:57:47 <shachaf> `5 randquote '\bking\b'
06:57:50 <HackEgo> 1/3:1177) <int-e> like good old time, with elbow and foot lengths of the king. <Slereah_> man that must have sucked <Slereah_> People would be always like "Hey king, can you drop by, I have stuff to measure" <Jafet> That's why they're called rulers, you know \ 239) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case
06:58:03 <shachaf> Jafet++
06:58:07 <shachaf> `n
06:58:08 <HackEgo> 2/3: one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them \ 516) <oklopol> king is something women are better at than men \ 239) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them \ 239) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in ca
06:58:10 <shachaf> `n
06:58:11 <HackEgo> 3/3:se one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
06:58:47 <shachaf> `1 quote '\bking\b' | shuf
06:58:48 <HackEgo> 1/2:1177) <int-e> like good old time, with elbow and foot lengths of the king. <Slereah_> man that must have sucked <Slereah_> People would be always like "Hey king, can you drop by, I have stuff to measure" <Jafet> That's why they're called rulers, you know \ 516) <oklopol> king is something women are better at than men \ 239) <zzo38> However i
06:58:52 <shachaf> `n
06:58:53 <HackEgo> 2/2:s probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
06:58:54 <shachaf> Hmm.
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09:59:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53161&oldid=53156 * Luke1337 * (+362) /* Introductions */
09:59:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53162&oldid=44965 * Luke1337 * (-95) removed a dead link
10:42:56 <b_jonas> lol
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12:04:54 <b_jonas> `? phasing
12:04:55 <HackEgo> phasing? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:04:55 <b_jonas> `? phase
12:04:56 <HackEgo> phase? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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12:36:57 <b_jonas> ``` ln -svf allsets-2017-09-20.txt share/mtg/allsets.txt
12:36:59 <HackEgo> ​'share/mtg/allsets.txt' -> 'allsets-2017-09-20.txt'
12:38:32 <b_jonas> `card-by-name walk the
12:38:32 <HackEgo> Walk the Aeons \ 4UU \ Sorcery \ Buyback--Sacrifice three Islands. (You may sacrifice three Islands in addition to any other costs as you cast this spell. If you do, put this card into your hand as it resolves.) \ Target player takes an extra turn after this one. \ TSP-R \ \ Walk the Plank \ BB \ Sorcery \ Destroy target non-Merfolk creature. \ XL
12:38:36 <b_jonas> `card-by-name walk the plank
12:38:37 <HackEgo> Walk the Plank \ BB \ Sorcery \ Destroy target non-Merfolk creature. \ XLN-U
12:39:59 <int-e> `? xln
12:40:00 <HackEgo> xln? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:40:31 <int-e> @google mtg xln
12:40:32 <lambdabot> https://magic.wizards.com/en/products/ixalan
12:40:41 <int-e> (that worked)
12:42:07 <b_jonas> int-e: that's the latest released expert set. I'm testing with the latest to show that updating the local copy of the card database worked.
12:47:31 <b_jonas> ``` grep "^306\.4." share/mtg/rules.txt # I also updated the local copy of the comprehensive rules
12:47:32 <HackEgo> 306.4. Previously, planeswalkers were subject to a “planeswalker uniqueness rule” that stopped a player from controlling two planeswalkers of the same planeswalker type. This rule has been removed and planeswalker cards printed before this change have received errata in the Oracle card reference to have the legendary supertype. Like other legen
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15:23:54 <b_jonas> `scheme
15:23:54 <HackEgo> Realms Befitting My Majesty
15:24:00 <b_jonas> `5 scheme
15:24:02 <HackEgo> 1/1:This World Belongs to Me \ Nothing Can Stop Me Now \ My Undead Horde Awakens \ Delight in the Hunt \ No One Will Hear Your Cries
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18:38:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53163&oldid=53162 * Oerjan * (+120) Use wayback
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19:32:33 <shachaf> `olist 1101
19:32:34 <HackEgo> olist 1101: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:19:54 <wob_jonas> hi, ais
22:20:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: so I read the M:tG Ixalan update bulletin. I was surprised that they're making a new phasing card. that's one of those mechanics that are too complicated rules-wise to be worth bringing back, like banding.
22:21:06 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's in a supplementary set, those are allowed to be more complex
22:21:31 <ais523> although, hmm, is it the first new phasing card since the phasing rules changed?
22:21:55 <shachaf> I thought that mechanic was phased out.
22:21:58 <ais523> still, reprinting phasing card would seem entirely reasonable in a Masters set, and only slightly out of place in Commander or Conspiracy
22:22:05 <ais523> *reprinting a
22:22:13 <ais523> so I expect creating a new one has similar considerations
22:22:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: you mean it won't be in Modern? yes, that's a good point, but still.
22:22:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, nor in Standard
22:23:01 <ais523> only Legacy, Vintage and Commander
22:23:21 <ais523> (it's clearly the sort of card that was designed for multiplayer)
22:23:26 <ais523> `card-by-name teferi's protection
22:23:27 <HackEgo> Teferi's Protection \ 2W \ Instant \ Until your next turn, your life total can't change and you have protection from everything. All permanents you control phase out. (While they're phased out, they're treated as though they don't exist. They phase in before you untap during your untap step.) \ Exile Teferi's Protection. \ C17-R
22:23:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: reprinting is generally more easier to support than making entirely new cards
22:24:20 <ais523> one-shot phasing is probably the easiest sort to understand
22:24:46 <ais523> although this does apply to all sorts of permanents, increasing the chance of a confusing interaction
22:26:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't see why one-shot would be much easier to understand than phasing every turn
22:27:10 <ais523> also that reminder text explains most of the relevant cases by itself, the most likely ones that aren't explained are to do when an aura and the enchanted permanent have two different controllers
22:27:35 <ais523> wob_jonas: because "X phases out" needs fewer definitions than "Phasing", the keyword
22:28:03 <wob_jonas> sort of.
22:28:38 <wob_jonas> except for the part that it happens at instant speed now.
22:28:53 <wob_jonas> so there's more potential interactions with other spells.
22:29:00 <wob_jonas> or with combat.
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22:32:43 <wob_jonas> Mind you, I also think that permanents becoming a copy of an object is too complicated rules-wise, and so is making permanents lose all abilities, yet Wizards still keep printing them (in Modern at rare).
22:33:17 <ais523> clone effects are popular enough that Wizards wants to make them work, I guess
22:33:41 <ais523> it isn't too conceptually complex in the common case, you assume that the copy was printed as being identical to the copied card for as long as the copy effect lasts
22:33:50 <ais523> the main issues come in special cases, like copying a DFC
22:34:02 <wob_jonas> (Actually the latter in uncommon too, and was in common in Lorwyn.)
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22:35:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but even among clone effects, which are difficult already, an already existing permanent temporarily becoming a copy is slightly more difficult than just making token copies or having a permanent etb as a copy and remaining a copy forever.
22:36:25 <wob_jonas> And yes, the main issues come in special cases, but there are lots of different types of special cases, and they come up in recent sets too.
22:37:01 <wob_jonas> Although I must admit that they eliminated one special case entirely, namely the old rules for Primal Clay, which they replaced with simple to understand new rules.
22:37:04 <wob_jonas> Retroactively.
22:38:35 <wob_jonas> So now Primal Clay and two other cards just set its own p/t and abilities, just like levelers; as opposed to setting the whole copiable values, like split cards, flip cards, double-faced cards, morph, do.
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22:44:16 <wob_jonas> Oh, that reminds me, a rules question. I have a Horned Turtle (vanilla) in play. Can I resolve Artificial Evolution on it in such a way as to replace all instances of Sliver with Wizard, then much later, Cytoshape that turtle to a Predatory Sliver to have it grant a bonus to all my Wizards?
22:45:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: that's just a layers question, isn't it?
22:45:52 <ais523> and I'm fairly sure that copy applies before text change, so it should work
22:45:57 <wob_jonas> (I'm asking about current rules, even if I sometimes say "in play" instead of "on the battlefield")
22:46:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, not only that. I'm not sure if choosing Sliver is a valid choice at all if that word doesn't currently occur on the target object.
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22:47:14 <ais523> `card-by-name artificial evolution
22:47:14 <HackEgo> Artificial Evolution \ U \ Instant \ Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one creature type with another. The new creature type can't be Wall. (This effect lasts indefinitely.) \ ONS-R
22:47:29 <ais523> hmm, it's unclear from the wording, I assume there'd be a ruling on it
22:48:03 <ais523> 04/10/2004 Can target a card with no appropriate words on it, or even one with no words at all.
22:48:05 <ais523> yep, there's a ruling
22:48:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: that only says "can target". it doesn't say what happens at resolution.
22:48:44 <ais523> well it clearly isn't countered on resolution
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22:48:55 <ais523> and there's no rule that says that effects aren't created just because they couldn't do anything
22:49:04 <wob_jonas> when I set the target, it won't check whether choices at resolution are valid or actions at resolution can be carried out
22:49:36 <wob_jonas> it surely won't get *countered*, I only wonder if it's such that there's no valid choices so the action is ignored, or, in this case, the only valid choice is Turtle
22:50:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, but there are rules saying that in some case when I make choices at resolution, I can't choose ones that are impossible
22:50:31 <wob_jonas> that applies for "you may" choices at least
22:50:41 <wob_jonas> even if it's not about paying costs
22:50:54 <wob_jonas> but two alternative non-pay actions
22:51:50 <wob_jonas> but it's possible that that doesn't apply for this choice, and even more likely that I can choose Sliver even if it doesn't appear in the text of the card
22:52:38 <ais523> this is a comparable situation to casting "target permanent gets +1/+1" on a land; I'd expect that to work
22:52:42 <ais523> although I'm not sure if it's possible at the moment
22:52:51 <ais523> oh right, there's a situation with Vehicles
22:52:58 <ais523> where you can increase their stats before they're animated
22:53:10 <wob_jonas> even if it's not impossible, I wonder if "one creature type" refers only to a creature type that appears in the text
22:53:35 <ais523> `card-by-name gearshift ace
22:53:35 <HackEgo> Gearshift Ace \ 1W \ Creature -- Dwarf Pilot \ 2/1 \ First strike \ Whenever Gearshift Ace crews a Vehicle, that Vehicle gains first strike until end of turn. \ KLD-U
22:54:14 <ais523> "crews" triggers when the creature is tapped, not when the crew ability resolves
22:54:22 <ais523> so the Vehicle gainst first strike first
22:54:24 <ais523> then becomes a creature later on
22:54:41 <ais523> granting first strike to an artifact doesn't make sense and yet the effect is still created
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22:56:22 <wob_jonas> sure
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23:04:22 <wob_jonas> and yes, card text is written very carefully so that when something grants p/t bonus/malus or first strike or trample to some other permanent, the text either explicitly requires a creature, or implicitly requires because it explicitly requires "blocking" in case of Glyph of Destruction.
23:07:20 <ais523> I think the reason M:tG normally disallows things like giving a land +1/+1 is not because it doesn't work but because it would confuse players
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23:07:35 <ais523> doing it to a Vehicle is less confusing because at least you expect those to turn into creatures at some point
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23:16:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and there are other edge cases, eg. if you use an external animator, then Chronatog Totem can give itself +3/+3 after the animator is cancelled
23:18:20 <wob_jonas> or any number of creature like Stonewood Invoker could give itself p/t bonus in a way that's still resolved after it's turned to a noncreature by Soul Sculptor
23:19:03 <wob_jonas> because when creatures give *themselves* p/t bonus or first strike or trample, then the text generally doesn't explicitly check that it's still a creature
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2017-10-05
00:10:07 <boily> `5 w
00:10:12 <HackEgo> 1/3:zarutian//You can trust Zarutian. He fixes, as an electronics technician, banal mistakes of electronics engineers. Rather cy(ph|b)erpunkish in outlook regarding the 'Net. Knows more about ocaps than you can imagine. Possesses an Icelandic unnerver that ejects freezingly hot lava out of its business end. Bears an 'Authentic fakes provider' sea
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00:10:13 <boily> `n
00:10:13 <HackEgo> 2/3:l from the guild of Realers. He is also known for making rather long HackEgo wisdom entries. Take for instance this entry. It has a whole subentry just on Icelandic unnerver. Even though the Icelandic unnerver has its own. \ rhetorical question//Why did Taneb invent the rhetorical question without providing an answer? \ the u//The U are a v
00:10:15 <boily> `n
00:10:16 <HackEgo> 3/3:ery mad people. \ intercal//INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market. \ eridanipoid//Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.
00:10:20 <boily> hellørjan!
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00:18:28 <oerjan> helloily!
00:18:40 * oerjan smells a PPCG bounty coming his way
00:19:50 <oerjan> (maybe)
00:21:39 <boily> what does a bounty mean in this context?
00:22:03 <shachaf> Internet points
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00:23:39 <boily> helloochaf. tdh.
00:25:03 <oerjan> yeah
00:25:22 <oerjan> (stackexchange site rep points)
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01:12:28 <ais523> oerjan: for which answer?
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01:18:27 <oerjan> ais523: well it's not explicitly stated that it's for me but i have a good vibe about https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/138912/
01:19:11 <oerjan> (i'm the only one answering in a non-esoteric language)
01:20:57 <oerjan> or well, TI-BASIC might not be esoteric.
01:20:59 <ais523> oerjan: nice, it manages to be obfuscated and underhanded simultaneously and to useful effect
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01:21:13 <oerjan> heh
01:21:32 <ais523> although including a cyrillic and ASCII d in the same line is probably a loophole violation for underhanded code; luckily this wasn't an underhanded competition
01:26:00 <oerjan> the cyrillic character was not chosen for underhandedness at all, of course; it was simply the smallest unicode character that worked there (possibly the only one)
01:26:07 <ais523> indeed
01:26:24 <oerjan> only two byte one that is
01:26:26 <ais523> and the ASCII d is an essential part of the spelling of "id"
01:26:31 <oerjan> yeah
01:26:48 <oerjan> i probably didn't have to use d for the last-minute change
01:27:26 <oerjan> that was just the first letter that worked there, presumably.
01:31:27 <oerjan> hm "or" fits instead of "id" afa characters are concerned, but it gives a type ambiguity.
01:32:16 <oerjan> > "ԁ"
01:32:19 <lambdabot> "\1281"
01:33:01 <oerjan> > (1281*)[1..5]
01:33:04 <lambdabot> error:
01:33:04 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num [Integer]) arising from a use of ‘e_1128115’
01:33:04 <lambdabot> • In the expression: e_1128115
01:33:10 <oerjan> > map(1281*)[1..5]
01:33:13 <lambdabot> [1281,2562,3843,5124,6405]
01:33:37 <oerjan> "\2562\3843\5124\6405"
01:33:49 <oerjan> > var "\2562\3843\5124\6405"
01:33:51 <lambdabot> ਂ༃ᐄᤅ
01:34:34 <oerjan> > map generalCategory "\2562\3843\5124\6405"
01:34:36 <lambdabot> [NonSpacingMark,OtherSymbol,OtherLetter,OtherLetter]
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01:35:33 <oerjan> hm no letters until it passes into 3 bytes, i recognize the ᐄ
01:35:49 <oerjan> (that's the character i allude to in the explanation)
01:36:14 <oerjan> i originally had that before thinking of the tab trick
01:46:18 <ais523> :t or
01:46:20 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t Bool -> Bool
01:46:42 <ais523> huh, what's the kind of Foldable there?
01:47:36 <ais523> it's weird to see quantification over type constructors, although I guess if any non-total language can do it, it's probably Haskell
01:51:49 <shachaf> Do you think it's weird with Functor and Monad too?
01:51:58 <shachaf> I guess when Haskell was new this was looked at as a pretty unusual feature.
01:52:25 <shachaf> It even had some name like "constructor classes".
01:53:20 <ais523> shachaf: yes, although monads are weird enough that you don't instinctively consider the monad "constructor" as being a type and so it doesn't feel as out of place
01:54:08 <shachaf> Rust still doesn't support this feature. :-(
01:54:40 <shachaf> Though C++ does, sort of.
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01:55:30 <ais523> that reminds me, I started trying to write a program in Rust to try it out
01:56:09 <ais523> and found a problem that seems to be a) common and b) in need of a new feature to address it (although multiple possible solutions would work)
01:56:46 <shachaf> I had that experience multiple times when I tried writing some Rust a while ago.
01:57:13 <ais523> the case where it came up for me was: suppose you want a trait that describes enums, including how many elements you have; and you want to create an array with X elements, where X is the number of possibilties of the enum, given the enum as a type parameter
01:57:46 <ais523> you can't currently do this without placing a large number of type bounds on the resulting trait that leak implementation details
01:58:42 <ais523> the cleanest and simplest fix, AFAICT, is to allow for "closed" traits (that can't have new types implementing them), plus a rule that if a type implements a closed trait, it (automatically / on request) implements all traits that types implementing that closed trait implement
01:59:12 <ais523> (this is a tautology, but the point is that if I have x: ClosedTrait, and only types A and B implement ClosedTrait, I can then assume x implements any trait implemented by both A and B)
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02:20:39 <oerjan> :k Foldable
02:20:40 <lambdabot> (* -> *) -> Constraint
02:20:44 <oerjan> ais523: ^
02:21:20 <ais523> wait, I thought there was only one base kind
02:21:25 <ais523> apparently not?
02:25:28 <oerjan> not in a while
02:26:59 <oerjan> :k Int#
02:27:00 <lambdabot> error:
02:27:00 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Int#’
02:27:00 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
02:27:03 <oerjan> argh
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02:27:29 <shachaf> `? oerjan
02:27:30 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:27:36 <oerjan> :k GHC.Exts.Int#
02:27:38 <lambdabot> TYPE 'GHC.Types.IntRep
02:27:45 <shachaf> `swrjan s/arrant/kind/
02:27:47 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:28:02 <oerjan> shachaf: pardon me, i'm trying to demonstrate to ais523 here
02:28:10 <shachaf> how kind of you
02:28:39 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, so kinds in Haskell have changed from being a mathematical concept to more of a "this is how the Haskell implementation handles a type"?
02:28:41 <oerjan> now unboxed types have a kind showing an approximation of their runtime representation
02:28:52 <shachaf> We figured out some good GHC bugs back in the day using all these extra kinds.
02:29:20 <oerjan> (before they were all tossed into a special kind #)
02:29:28 <shachaf> one might even go so far as to call them "astonishingly ingenious"
02:29:34 <ais523> shachaf: why on earth does HackEgo have a command specifically for editing oerjan's wisdom entry?
02:29:41 <oerjan> this allows more refined safe type coercions
02:29:47 <shachaf> `` dowg oerjan | wc -l
02:29:56 <HackEgo> 177
02:29:57 <shachaf> It happens often enough.
02:30:12 <ais523> that is a problem in its own right, surely
02:32:55 <boily> what's a knite?
02:33:39 <oerjan> ais523: these days kinds are also types, as part of the (incomplete) project to make haskell dependently typed. and types whose own kinds are * are themselves kinds.
02:34:09 <oerjan> (* is its own kind, which makes the type logic inconsistent but goldfire swears that's fine)
02:34:14 <ais523> making Haskell dependently typed sounds like a bad idea
02:34:39 <ais523> even languages that are designed from the outset to be dependently typed struggle with having dependent typing
02:35:11 <oerjan> and Constraint has been there for a while, after ghc got support for making classes and the like into type arguments
02:36:17 <oerjan> (a class with parameters of kind k1, k2, etc. itself has kind k1 -> k2 -> ... -> Constraint)
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02:37:18 <ais523> is it possible to make a class that takes constraints as arguments? I guess it would be?
02:37:25 <ais523> although the syntax for that could be awkward
02:37:44 <ais523> X y => y t => t a -> b
02:38:56 <oerjan> that's still mathematical, btw. the "how the Haskell implementation handles a type" you mention was added to make type coercions safe between types of equal representation
02:39:12 <oerjan> (it's the RuntimeRep argument to TYPE)
02:39:49 <oerjan> ais523: you certainly can. the second => would probably be a ->
02:40:14 <oerjan> or wait
02:40:35 <oerjan> i'm not quite getting the example you're going for
02:41:05 <oerjan> edwardk's constraints package surely has some examples.
02:41:48 <ais523> hmm, that example's probably more complex than it should be
02:42:17 <oerjan> in fact, the Forall module i've contributed to has some.
02:42:51 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/constraints-0.9.1/docs/Data-Constraint-Forall.html
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02:45:20 <oerjan> the main module also has some
02:45:40 <oerjan> of course the entire point of that package is to play around with this stuff
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05:16:24 <oerjan> ...why is scott aaronson's blog comments suddenly full of videos
05:16:39 * oerjan hasn't decided whether he's complaining or not.
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05:46:33 <shachaf> oerjan: I went to a Mill talk and the speaker was apparently in Trondheim for a while
05:48:46 <oerjan> shocking
05:49:01 <shachaf> I know, man
05:49:28 <shachaf> There needs to be a command to view wisdom/oerjan too
05:51:47 <oerjan> similar to `hwrl, i think
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14:18:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: probably wordpress stuff
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15:16:27 <int-e> . o O ( Coming for Halloween: The Google Skin Crawler. )
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16:18:09 <b_jonas> haha
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16:31:36 <LKoen> hello
16:31:46 <LKoen> do you think Brainfuck Joust would be suited for this? http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2017-October/010261.html
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17:59:06 <int-e> @metar lowi
17:59:07 <lambdabot> LOWI 051650Z 27013G31KT 200V330 9999 FEW070 BKN120 22/03 Q1010 NOSIG
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18:05:54 <int-e> hmm, windy but approximately parallel to runway... boring ;-)
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18:43:45 * Taneb hello
18:44:16 <int-e> Tanelcome
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23:45:27 <boily> @metar CYUL
23:45:27 <lambdabot> CYUL 052200Z 24010KT 30SM BKN075 18/08 A2995 RMK AC7 SLP143 DENSITY ALT 500FT
23:45:30 <boily> @metar ENVA
23:45:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 052150Z 25010KT 9999 FEW012 SCT020 BKN029 09/07 Q0997 RMK WIND 670FT 27018KT
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2017-10-06
00:03:41 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...).
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00:10:34 <quintopia> helloily
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00:11:23 <quintopia> This is being so hype https://youtu.be/3Gs6laePLIw
00:18:42 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
00:19:24 <boily> the hype is!
00:25:18 <quintopia> did you play the first one
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00:33:36 <boily> no. I know it exists, but I haven't.
00:45:49 <quintopia> oh
00:45:54 <quintopia> that sucks
00:46:06 <quintopia> sorry for youy
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09:33:02 <int-e> > 1
09:33:05 <lambdabot> 1
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10:34:16 <b_jonas> `? invoke
10:34:22 <HackEgo> invoke? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:34:23 <b_jonas> `? invocation
10:34:24 <HackEgo> invocation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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13:00:53 <b_jonas> `? force
13:00:54 <HackEgo> force? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:00:54 <b_jonas> `? energy
13:00:56 <HackEgo> energy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:00:56 <b_jonas> ` ?power
13:00:56 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
13:00:58 <b_jonas> `? power
13:00:59 <HackEgo> power? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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13:47:57 <b_jonas> `? elf
13:47:58 <HackEgo> elf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:47:58 <b_jonas> `? elvish
13:48:00 <HackEgo> elvish? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:48:00 <b_jonas> `? elven
13:48:01 <HackEgo> elven? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:48:02 <b_jonas> `? elfin
13:48:04 <HackEgo> elfin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:48:09 <b_jonas> `? elves
13:48:10 <HackEgo> elves? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:48:11 <b_jonas> `? elfs
13:48:12 <HackEgo> elfs? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:00:54 <LKoen> elvish preshley?
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14:24:08 <b_jonas> In the toilets in this building, we have these toilet paper dispenser boxes that try to make it harder to steal the entire roll of toilet paper. These have the funny property that if they're half empty, then you can open them easily with the key by just reaching inside them with your hand next to the roll and turning the latch from the inside.
14:25:46 <b_jonas> They should use this feature for the toilet cubicle *doors* instead of the toilet paper dispenser, so you don't have a manually operated latch on doors, but instead when someone is in the toilet, then the door is automatically hard to open from the outside, but when nobody is in, then anyone can enter easily.
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16:04:42 <b_jonas> URLs are such a great invention. Before them, people gave human-readable descriptions like "available on the internet by anonymous ftp on somehostname"
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16:35:40 <quintopi1> b_jonas: but what more simple mechanism is there to ensure "hard to open when someone is inside" than a latch that can only be fastened by someone inside?
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16:41:29 <impomatic> Hi, did someone here mention they're reading Computer-Kurzweil 2?
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17:12:44 <b_jonas> quintopi1: the latch only works if people actually close the latch. here, people are lazy, they don't close the latch when they're in, and they leave the door closed and the lamp lit when they exit the cubicle so you can't tell from those whether it's empty.
17:13:08 <b_jonas> impomatic: dunno. you'll have to download all the logs and grep it or something.
17:13:33 <b_jonas> there are some contradictory rumours that HackEgo may have a local copy and you can search there
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18:04:25 <b_jonas> jesus, is a ninth planet the same fucking deal as life on mars now, as in, pop journalists fixating on it and ignoring any explanations on why it doesn't exist?
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18:06:13 <int-e> fungot!
18:06:13 <fungot> int-e: mr president, commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, the subject to provide for possible suspension of existing cooperation agreements.
18:06:22 <int-e> longwinded fungot!
18:06:23 <fungot> int-e: at the end of this year under the dutch presidency to focus on. in any event, the important thing at the moment, there is a risk of the death penalty as a first interim step, target values are set. the introduction of the euro.
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19:23:58 <fizzie> fungot: Where were you?
19:23:59 <fungot> fizzie: there is a great sense of responsibility but it will still be accepted. amendment no 7. amendments nos 22, 23, 24 and 25 march in berlin is no reason for wanting, in the next few days will see demonstrators from all over the european aviation safety agency, which is called troubled waters. i would therefore ask the following question: in the committee on industry, external trade, research and energy has naturally consid
19:24:39 <fizzie> "in the next few days will see demonstrators from all over the european aviation safety agency" FWIW I don't think that'll be a terribly impressive demonstration.
19:24:54 <fizzie> How many people can they have there?
19:26:18 <Hooloovo0> I mean
19:26:26 <Hooloovo0> how often can you actually fly into france?
19:26:55 <Hooloovo0> err it was berlin that had a bunch of airport strikes
19:33:39 <\oren\> well i mean even if there's an airport strike you can fly into another country and then take teh eurostar
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23:36:02 <quintopi1> b_jonas: the secret is to point and laugh at people every time you accidentally walk in on them. "HAHA! Look at you! You forgot to latch the door AGAIN! I can't believe you still haven't got the hang of this! Hey, everyone! So-and-so left the door unlatched! Come look!"
23:36:57 <quintopi1> nah, that's mean.
23:38:15 <quintopi1> a more good-natured solution would be to just put super soakers near the bathroom, and decree that from now on, if you manage to squirt someone with it while they're in the bathroom, they gotta toss a buck in the beer-fund jar.
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02:34:45 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
02:34:45 <lambdabot> ENVA 062350Z 23018KT 9999 BKN032 06/03 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 24019KT
02:34:49 <oerjan> AUTUMN
02:42:05 <shachaf> `? weather
02:43:59 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
02:44:00 <lambdabot> KOAK 070053Z 31006KT 10SM FEW180 25/03 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP146 T02500028
02:44:12 <shachaf> fizzie: please fix twh
02:44:27 <oerjan> hackGone
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03:54:01 <oerjan> killed the wrong tmux process by accident
03:54:10 <oerjan> (or inattention)
04:52:16 <zzo38> For a computer game I have started to make up (a puzzle game) I have made this palette: http://zzo38computer.org/img_1C/palette.png http://sprunge.us/IQCH The top row is PC colours, the right column is some extras (the bottom-right represents transparency), and the rest is the Hero Mesh palette (with a few alterations).
04:52:27 <zzo38> Do you think it is good?
04:53:02 <shachaf> Is your puzzle game compatible with CGA?
04:54:05 <zzo38> This one isn't.
04:54:09 <shachaf> Cale: I got my Super Mega book in the mail.
04:54:15 <zzo38> (Although I have made other computer games that are.)
04:56:12 <oerjan> . o O ( a very big book, i presume )
04:58:57 <zzo38> (This new game is design to be similar to Hero Mesh, kind of, although many things which were I think mistakes or other problems in the design of Hero Mesh, that I can do them differently this time, in order to make it better and avoid some of the problems that Hero Mesh is have.)
04:59:18 <shachaf> Do you like Dangerous Dave?
04:59:20 <shachaf> DAVE.EXE
05:05:15 <zzo38> I do have that game in my computer, too
05:07:57 <shachaf> Do you like this?
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05:10:27 <zzo38> How to save game?
05:11:29 <shachaf> Which game?
05:11:44 <zzo38> Dangerous Dave
05:16:50 <shachaf> I'm not sure you can save.
05:17:52 <zzo38> Does any version of DOSBOX support its own save state function?
05:18:39 <shachaf> I don't know.
05:31:22 <ais523> zzo38: I've heard rumours of a hacked version that did that but it was, IIRC, not publically released
05:31:38 <ais523> and wasn't really complete enough to handle more than one game, run on other people's computers, etc.
05:50:05 <shachaf> But there are other x86 virtual machines that support that.
05:50:09 <shachaf> And you can run DOSBOX inside them.
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06:36:14 <\oren\> shachaf: would you not run freedos inside them directly?
06:37:10 <shachaf> You could do that too.
06:38:16 <zzo38> Assuming the other x86 virtual machine emulates any of the hardware you need, then I think it will work to just run FreeDOS directly (and might even work better in some cases)
06:39:40 <shachaf> I don't know why it'd emulate DOS-compatible hardware, though.
06:40:15 <zzo38> If it is emulating a PC, then it probably should emulate DOS-compatible hardware.
06:40:20 <shachaf> Gotta set your IRQs, man
06:40:49 <zzo38> (Otherwise it should hardly be called a PC)
06:40:50 <shachaf> Get that Sound Blaster Pro going
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13:42:40 <lynn> does anyone here remember continuous chess? or whatever it was called
13:43:18 <lynn> I think maybe Phantom_Hoover invented it ?v? I wanna read the rules again, they were fun!!
13:53:35 <int-e> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-01-06#230105PhantomHoover ... http://www.chessvariants.com/other.dir/continuouschess.html (which is different) seems to predate that though
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15:08:05 <FireFly> Hmm, I'm only aware of continuous go… which has an article devoted to it on Sensei's Library IIRC
15:09:08 <FireFly> https://senseis.xmp.net/?Variant https://senseis.xmp.net/?GoOnABoardWithoutLines
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15:35:03 <myname> https://github.com/Property404/fetlang did that make its way to here already?
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16:26:39 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that can't work. this is a big office building with people from lots of companies, and the toilets are shared among them and even with some guests. even if I could convince people in our company to follow those rules, I couldn't convince everyone else in the building to do that.
16:27:43 <quintopia> sounds horrible
16:27:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I ran most of the DOS games in bochs (although a few I've ran in dosbox because that old version of bochs couldn't handle the video card requirement or something). I think it has a snapshotting feature, but I never really tried. These days, you should try qemu instead if you want snapshots for old DOS games.
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16:28:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I have sucessfully snapshotted and restored the *disk* contents when the game is powered down, in fact the termbot (which connects IRC as a terminal to the DOS machine) can restore to a snapshot I made automatically.
16:29:08 <wob_jonas> s/game is/machine is/
16:29:46 <wob_jonas> quintopia: no, I like that system. but I also know that people's opinion differs in that, some people prefer to have the toilet in the office, which they do have in the other building.
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17:51:21 <wob_jonas> Argh! Why does the label of shoelaces always give a length longer than the actual measured length of the lace?
17:52:18 <zzo38> Because it is in different units of measurement, maybe?
17:52:21 <wob_jonas> Do they measure them, like stretched with high force?
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17:53:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the label explicitly says "cm"
17:53:26 <zzo38> wob_jonas: O, it already says the units. Yes, maybe with high force. But, then, why should they do that?
17:58:11 <wob_jonas> I mean, the shoelace is not even the right order of magnitude to make the obligatory joke about males mis-sizing objects so they can brag about their twelve-inch penis.
18:00:54 <wob_jonas> ok, this other pair of laces at least has the right size
18:01:05 <wob_jonas> well, the right size for what's written on the label
18:09:57 <wob_jonas> as opposed to the right size for my boots
18:13:12 <wob_jonas> Sadly the store can't have shoelaces in every combination of material, thickness and shape, color and width, because that would be a really large number of combinations, so I just had to buy one that's close to right.
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18:22:31 <wob_jonas> Ok, now I'm going to fix all the shirts that need sewing, either to close small holes or resew buttons. I have seven shirts here, but I think there's one more hidden somewhere.
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18:40:34 * boily prods the fungot
18:40:35 <fungot> boily: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, the amsterdam treaty it would not be vaccinated but pre-emptively killed in a certain speculative event but i can, by the danish prime minister, mr fini, to help ensure that it is not a single religion that has not been mentioned before that we have had the opportunity to tell you for information purposes? i have no problems in sharing out money from public funds among yourselves. it i
18:56:37 <fizzie> Our internet has been glitchier as of late.
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18:59:17 <fizzie> Wonder what's up with HackEgo. The socat instance has 100% CPU use.
18:59:28 <fizzie> IIRC, it's inside a restart loop, so maybe if I just kill it...
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19:00:06 <fizzie> That's better.
19:00:45 <boily> ^botsnack
19:00:45 <fungot> Oh nom nom nom!
19:00:49 <boily> `botsnack
19:00:55 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
19:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover> <lynn> I think maybe Phantom_Hoover invented it ?v? I wanna read the rules again, they were fun!!
19:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> yes i did
19:14:32 <Phantom_Hoover> frankly it was more an exercise in making the rules work than a game
19:19:14 <lynn> reading these logs now, yessss this is so good. I vaguely remember a summary existing at some point
19:19:19 <fizzie> `quote glurk
19:19:20 <HackEgo> 677) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
19:19:58 <Phantom_Hoover> the one thing that always irked me was that my original goal of having real chess as a strict subset didn't quite work
19:20:18 <Phantom_Hoover> because you couldn't e.g move a bishop northeast with a piece to the north and a piece to the east
19:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> you could easily solve that by shrinking the pieces in their squares a bit but that was inelegant enough not to satisfy me
19:21:08 <lynn> that seems to be what That Other Continous Chess does
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20:02:06 <zzo38> Why does ! in visual mode in vim always operate linewise even if the selection isn't linewise?
20:14:49 <Cale> shachaf: cool! I should expect something soon then :)
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20:45:10 <zzo38> I generally in TeX are not using the \loop command, which clobbers \next, but instead, can use macros that (if called \next, for example) might end with something like: \ifnum\xyzzy=42{\let\next}\fi\next in order to break the loop in case the condition is true. Do other people do this?
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2017-10-08
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00:16:03 <zzo38> Why do they say pi is wrong? I will agree tau is a much better idea, but that doesn't make pi wrong. (I also prefer to call tau the "period of trigonometric functions" instead of the "circle constant", but that is a different question anyways.)
00:26:05 <Guest77438> Because the people saying this are wankers
00:26:14 <Guest77438> says this impartial observer
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01:15:51 <LKoen> "trigonometric function" is such a ridiculously complex concept when compared to "circle"
01:16:45 <LKoen> also, tan is a periodic trigonometric function, but it's period is pi
01:16:57 <LKoen> s/it's/its
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02:17:48 <quintopia> TIL that ^V puts Kate in VI mode so it uses all VI keybindings.
02:17:50 <quintopia> by accident
02:19:29 <quintopia> zzo38: because "pi is wrong" is a much better attention-grabber than "mathematical pedagogy surrounding circles and trigonometry becomes quite a bit simpler and more effective when we focus attention on the radian measure of a full circle"
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02:21:01 <Warrigal_> YIL that loops in 3D rotation space have parity.
02:21:19 <Warrigal_> Suppose I take an object and turn it around 360 degrees. I just put the object through an odd rotation.
02:21:33 <Warrigal_> Suppose I turn it around 360 degrees, and then, once again, I turn it around 360 degrees, in any direction.
02:21:38 <Warrigal_> That's an even rotation.
02:22:20 <Warrigal_> Any even rotation can be continuously deformed into the identity rotation--the one where you just leave the object alone and don't turn it at all.
02:22:23 <Warrigal_> Odd rotations cannot.
02:29:23 <quintopia> what
02:29:46 <quintopia> a 360 degree rotation around any axis *is* the identity rotation
02:30:30 <Warrigal_> Yeah, I'm kind of using the word "rotation" wrong.
02:30:38 <Warrigal_> What I really mean is "path in rotation space".
02:30:54 <quintopia> ah
02:31:01 <Warrigal_> Suppose I turn an object 360 degrees, then turn it 360 degrees again. That's an even path-in-rotation-space.
02:31:21 <Warrigal_> Any even path-in-rotation-space can be continuously deformed into the identity path-in-rotation-space.
02:31:36 <Warrigal_> Anyway, I just got hit by a wave of sleepiness.
02:31:53 <Warrigal_> So I'm gonna go home, vacuum some fleas, and go to bed.
02:32:01 <Warrigal_> Night, all.
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03:30:03 <zzo38> Bland Chess (which is my brother's idea) is not quite the true subset of FIDE; some moves are legal which might not be legal in FIDE because they would put yourself into check if the game was FIDE.
03:31:19 <zzo38> (Bland Chess is a chess variant where all diagonal moves are prohibited, although knight moves are still possible.)
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04:54:58 <xkapastel> is bfjoust solved? is there much room for improvement in bots?
05:26:01 <zzo38> I don't know
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06:58:51 <quintopia> xkapastel: it's kind of rock-paper-scissory, so it is always possible to beat the hill
06:59:13 <quintopia> just figure out something that most of the current jousters are doing wrong and exploit it
07:00:02 <quintopia> i think that it is, in fact, currently possible to beat everything on the hill on every tape length--it's been done before as I recall.
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07:10:40 <zzo38> Now I made the program to draw a polygon onto an existing picture (the polygon does not have to be entirely within the boundary of the picture).
07:43:13 <zzo38> Please tell me if this document is good: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ff-dntsc
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15:36:28 <boily> `5 w
15:36:47 <HackEgo> 1/2:alphabet//Alphabet is a system of writing invented by Google. \ 🐚//(1+sqrt(5))/2 hth \ gblh//Gblh but less helpful. \ hth//hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. \ dark water//Dark water is an instadeath terrain type in Game Boy games that would represent lava if you had lots of imaginati
15:36:48 <boily> `n
15:36:49 <HackEgo> 2/2:on.
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20:41:44 <orby> Greetings
20:42:50 <orby> Has anyone put any serious thought into whether or not harmful brainfuck is turing complete?
20:43:07 <orby> It's actually quite interesting imo
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20:59:51 <Warrigal_> Hmmm. I look at it and I think, yeah, it probably is.
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21:00:24 <Warrigal_> No obvious obstacles to Turing-completeness.
21:00:41 <moony> afternoon
21:01:09 <orby> I think it certainly might be, but it's not immediately clear how to do things like loop n times
21:01:51 <orby> Hey moony
21:01:54 <Warrigal_> Actually, it's not obvious that "initial setup" is possible.
21:02:28 <moony> 'harmful brainfuck'? Link me. Sounds intresting.
21:02:44 <Warrigal_> Like, suppose I want to initialize the first 128 cells to 128 in a reasonably concise way.
21:02:49 <moony> or rather, i'll link myself.
21:02:50 <Warrigal_> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Harmful_Brainfuck
21:02:57 <moony> or not
21:02:59 <Warrigal_> Or just...
21:03:14 <Warrigal_> I mean, it's not immediately obvious that it's even possible to jump back to the beginning of the program.
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21:03:34 <Warrigal_> And to subsequently continue in a reasonable manner.
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21:04:42 <orby> Even something as simple as a conditional jump seems tricky
21:05:50 <zzo38> Now I made program converting Netpbm formats into farbfeld (I already had the program converting the other way; now I have both way)
21:05:50 <orby> Say we want to jump if the current cell is zero and otherwise not
21:05:59 <moony> You could do a conditional jump via, well, trampolines. Just think of it how a GPU programmer might think of it, it looks like it'll become clearer that way. (GPU programming has no conditionals, or at least it didnt for a long time)
21:06:23 <moony> orby, that case seems impossible, tho. ):
21:06:40 <Warrigal_> Well, you don't need that kind of conditional jump, though.
21:06:56 <Warrigal_> You could, say, represent false as 64 and true as 128.
21:06:57 <orby> Yeah, I suppose not
21:07:16 <Warrigal_> As long as you can implement logic gates and whatnot operating on that, you're pretty golden.
21:07:27 <moony> ^
21:07:38 <orby> Hmm, yeah you've got the right idea
21:07:54 <Warrigal_> But it would be nice to be able to simulate constant jumps.
21:07:55 <moony> a simple NOT gate can perform boolean logic. (My proof? Minecraft's redstone torches.)
21:08:12 -!- augur has joined.
21:08:12 <moony> a simple not gate looks possible here
21:08:16 <moony> and it probably is.
21:08:43 <moony> if you can prove a boolean notgate exists, its turing complete.
21:08:50 <moony> and thats only one way to do it.
21:08:52 <Warrigal_> You can simulate constant jumps by just keeping particular constant values nearby the tape pointer... as long as you can set up those constant values in the first place.
21:09:15 <Warrigal_> Surely the redstone torches aren't *just* a NOT gate. Like, they can have multiple inputs, right?
21:09:15 <moony> Warrigal_, +++.
21:09:43 <moony> Warrigal_, not directly. Altho, good point. Wasnt thinking about that part :P OR and NOT.
21:09:44 <Warrigal_> If all you have is NOT gates and composition, then there are only two functions you can make.
21:10:00 <orby> or and not is functionally complete though
21:10:09 <Warrigal_> Yup.
21:10:16 <orby> but you need more than functional completeness to be turing complete of course
21:10:16 * moony wracks brain
21:11:42 <moony> i'll just step out for now. Too many videogames. *wonders how minecraft computers are turing complete with only NOT and OR)
21:12:12 <orby> I too have heard that minecraft computers are turing complete, but I don't know much about how they work
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21:13:05 <orby> I think harmful brainfuck is especially interesting because it seems like there is ample room for minimization
21:13:13 <orby> which is a bit of a fetish of mine
21:13:24 <moony> uhh. ok.
21:13:43 * moony almost imagined how that could be fetishified.
21:13:47 <orby> haha
21:13:51 <orby> figure of speech
21:14:33 <orby> Off the bat we can drop - because the cells wrap around
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21:14:55 <orby> and we can combine >+
21:15:07 <orby> which brings it down to 3 commands pretty easily
21:15:26 <orby> I'm wondering if it's possible to combine < and *
21:16:22 <moony> oh no. a minimizer, hide before he minimizes you!
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21:16:50 <orby> mwahahaha
21:17:25 <moony> hey, wait i have bait for him. orby, here, go minimize Javascript.
21:17:53 <orby> eval
21:17:54 <orby> done
21:18:10 <orby> heh
21:18:23 <moony> orby, now try and outdo JSFuck.
21:18:35 <orby> haven't seen that, in the wiki?
21:18:44 <moony> yes.
21:19:16 <moony> https://esolangs.org/wiki/JSFuck
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21:20:25 <orby> that's pretty awesome
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21:48:06 <moony> new favorite esolang: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ecstatic
21:48:10 <Soni> I like whitespace
21:48:12 <moony> > ...Minor setback
21:48:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘...’
21:48:25 <moony> oh, sorry lambdabot
21:48:43 <Soni> valid lua string literals can contain valid whitespace
21:49:11 <Soni> (without it becoming part of the string)
21:49:38 <Soni> http://www.lua.org/manual/5.2/manual.html
21:49:42 <Soni> look for "\z"
21:49:46 <Soni> same in the lua 5.3 manual
21:50:04 <Soni> sadly it doesn't work in lua 5.1
21:50:29 <Soni> (now if only whitespace could be used in making malware...)
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22:07:52 <Warrigal_> Say, that reminds me of a quirk of Lua I found out about recently.
22:08:09 <Warrigal_> Lua is one of those rare languages where statements don't need explicit terminators *and* whitespace doesn't matter.
22:09:22 <Warrigal_> So...
22:09:25 <Warrigal_> This is valid Lua code:
22:09:27 <Warrigal_> x = true (print)(x)
22:09:30 <Warrigal_> It prints "true".
22:09:34 <Warrigal_> But...
22:09:54 <Warrigal_> Well.
22:09:58 <Warrigal_> This is also valid Lua code:
22:10:02 <Warrigal_> x = true y = true (print)(y)
22:10:05 <Warrigal_> Also prints "true".
22:10:18 <Warrigal_> This, on the other hand, is a runtime error:
22:10:23 <Warrigal_> x = true y = x (print)(y)
22:11:25 <Warrigal_> "x = true y = true (print)(y)" is parsed as "x = true; y = true; (print)(y)", whereas "x = true y = x (print)(y)" is parsed as "x = true; y = x(print)(y)".
22:11:48 <Warrigal_> So you get the error "stdin:1: attempt to call global 'x' (a boolean value)".
22:12:19 <Warrigal_> This gives the same runtime error: x = true x()
22:12:27 <Warrigal_> But this is a syntax error: x = true true()
22:13:34 <Warrigal_> The reason for all of this is that it's syntactically illegal to use a boolean literal as the function in a function call.
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22:18:52 <int-e> useful.
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22:24:21 <Soni> Warrigal_: x = print (function() end)() does not do what you think it does
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22:32:28 <zzo38> The OASYS compiler doesn't even have explicit terminators (nor does it need parentheses or commas around function arguments, and actually doesn't even accept commas), so if you name a property the same as a global variable or method or whatever, you can have something going wrong.
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22:35:26 <Soni> power went out
22:39:12 <Warrigal_> Soni: I think it does do what I think it does. :D
22:39:29 <Soni> Warrigal_: and what's that?
22:39:30 <Warrigal_> I think it calls print with function() end, then calls the result with no arguments, then assigns that result into x.
22:39:41 <Soni> yeah
22:39:47 <Warrigal_> Except I think that the second call will produce an error and so the third thing won't happen.
22:39:49 <Soni> it's really annoying when you love anonymous recursive functions
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05:49:11 <zzo38> Now I made a program to encode XZIP picture library format (I had previously written the decoder). The format is so obscure that these might be the only programs in existence that support this format (although Infocom probably used to have others, but they have been lost).
05:50:02 <zzo38> (Also, only a single file of this format exists, as far as I know, called "font2.dat".)
05:56:31 <zzo38> This "font2.dat" file contains five pictures: "knife.qqq", which has a bad drawing of a knife, and the text "ZORK A New Beginning"; "tiny.qqq", which is a 23x11 picture which is blank except for a stroke on the left;
05:57:42 <zzo38> "circles.qqq", which has some circles, the text "CIRCLES" (including the quotation marks) and "This is an example of a title"; "maze.qqq", which has a spiral with a house in the middle, and what I think is a bad drawing of a mouse, labeled "Mickey"; and "water.qqq", which is a bad drawing of some water.
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13:09:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: so it uses logo-like syntax?
13:15:36 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/
13:15:41 <b_jonas> that doesn't exist, right?
13:15:47 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bobadventureslist: not found
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17:40:34 <zzo38> b_jonas: So what uses logo-like syntax? The pictures I described are a binary file. The encoder/decoder is documented at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ffxzip
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17:59:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: I didn't mean the image compression. "<zzo38> The OASYS compiler doesn't even have explicit terminators (nor does it need parentheses or commas around function arguments, and actually doesn't even accept commas), so if you name a property the same as a global variable or method or whatever, you can have something going wrong."
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18:01:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know logo syntax, so I don't know.
18:02:12 <zzo38> However, here is an example program: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#OASYS_.28OAC.29
18:03:11 <zzo38> (All of the line breaks are optional; it doesn't care about line breaks.)
18:03:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: close enough then, for my purposes
18:03:42 <b_jonas> thanks
18:08:15 <zzo38> It also does no optimizations; duplicate string literals will be given different index numbers, and if a "verbs" list contains a variable name, the variable name will be placed into the vocabulary list even though at runtime it won't accept any phrases containing the variable name as valid input.
18:11:09 <zzo38> The code below that one is pretty much the same thing but a different programming language that compiles into the same binary format, but the result is somewhat more optimized; the first code compiles "value == -1 or value == 256" into the two checks followed by an OR and jumps past the code if true, while the second one checks those two conditions and jumps part the RP (return from procedure) if either is true.
18:13:07 <zzo38> (The OASYS compiler has no reserved words either)
18:14:02 <b_jonas> `? joke
18:14:06 <HackEgo> Jokes are no drug.
18:14:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: does it have user-defined functions with prefix syntax and arbitrary arity? user-defined two-argument functions with infix syntax?
18:14:48 <b_jonas> `? golf
18:14:49 <HackEgo> Golf is the shortest game known. The goal is to get a ball into a hole with a single stroke.
18:17:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: There are only methods, although all classes share the same methods. All methods other than init must be called with an object to the left, and the arguments to the right. (In the case of init, the object to the left is allowed to be null.) When the user invokes a method without using a comma, the value of the global variable "player" is used as the "this".
18:17:55 <b_jonas> I see
18:18:02 <zzo38> If a comma is used, then the part before the comma is resolved as a class name, the method "select_addressee" (or "&#" in OAA) is called on every object of that class until it returns nonzero, and then uses that object as the "this" of the method named after the comma.
18:18:07 <b_jonas> then I was wrong, it's not like logo syntax
18:19:20 <zzo38> There is also no forward declarations; you must define a function before another function that calls it can be defined.
18:28:05 <zzo38> (Also, the picture format I described above isn't compressed)
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22:19:31 <zzo38> My GURPS character has a "Enemies" disadvantage, and in this case neither he nor I know who they are, but I wrote down on a paper, some list of the possibilities.
22:19:39 <zzo38> (These aren't all of the possibilities, but some.)
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23:26:27 <zzo38> - A group of Infinity or Centrum agents who believe Ziveruskex known the Secret (or will soon find it or help someone to, somehow) and wish to discredit, recruit, kill, memory erasure, go to Coventry, or some such.
23:28:05 <zzo38> - A case of mistaken identity. A thief of same species stole the man's stuff.
23:28:18 <zzo38> Do you like this? I have more, too.
23:31:53 <zzo38> - Ziveruskex had previously eaten some of the man's blood (or that of his horse, relative, etc) and now he wants revenge.
23:32:09 <zzo38> - Someone wants to steal Ziveruskex's spellbook, and/or possibly other stuff too.
23:32:16 <zzo38> - They want to play chess, to the death.
23:33:39 <zzo38> - Ziveruskex is the first character of this species the observer has seen and now they try to examine him too closely.
23:33:58 <zzo38> - They want human will be best at mathematics and science, and want to stop these monster to be too good at it.
23:34:20 <zzo38> - Some magic or psychic control went wrong, and due to Ziveruskex's Truename, now they want to attack or seek Ziveruskex instead of what was intended.
23:37:02 <zzo38> - It is Bob's boss, who wishes to make Ziveruskex's job more difficult (Bob may be secretly in on it, or maybe not).
23:37:18 <zzo38> - Ziveruskex's wing (or antenna or other body part) is exactly the size they need.
23:37:54 <zzo38> - A librarian who owns a library Ziveruskex had previously entered wants to force him to pay the entry fee, even though nobody else has ever been charged before.
23:38:10 <zzo38> - It is the Catholic Church. (Maybe they want to get him because he wrote something.)
23:38:12 <zzo38> That is all.
23:38:20 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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02:57:33 <zzo38> Finally, I got the highlighting of trailing spaces in vim to work the way I wanted it to.
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03:25:17 <zzo38> (Doing this involves using the "conceal" mechanism.)
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05:33:19 * oerjan releases the crickets
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05:41:16 <oerjan> oh no, fungot is afraid of crickets :(
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05:59:37 <zzo38> Are you sure?
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08:12:41 <zzo38> What (if any) is the syntax for comments in XPM2?
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11:46:56 <boily> `5 w
11:47:05 <HackEgo> 1/2:xml//XML stands for "X-treme Mega Language (of Awesomeness)" \ ub//ub is a saner hub. \ dynamic-unwind//dynamic-unwind is just like dynamic-wind except that it's a different sort of weather. \ tur//To tur is not to flas. \ elrond//Elrond is a rogue program originally created to police the Matrix, eventually gaining increased individua
11:47:06 <boily> `n
11:47:07 <HackEgo> 2/2:lity and becoming a threat to the Machines themselves.
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12:40:30 <b_jonas> alias you_have_outlived_your_use=exit
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14:19:31 <Soni> is bdasm a thing yet?
14:25:58 <int-e> badly designed assembler?
14:39:09 <b_jonas> some people never learn
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14:43:46 <int-e> @google spnl
14:43:56 <lambdabot> http://www.spnl.org/
14:43:56 <lambdabot> Title: Society for the Protection of Nature in Lebanon – Strives to conserve biodi...
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16:52:12 <Soni> int-e: I'd ask for Organized Assembler but that one is too obvious
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17:51:47 <zzo38> I wrote a program to make XPM file, supporting XPM1, XPM2, and XPM3, although it look like ImageMagick only supports XPM3 (it misinterprets XPM1 as XBM, and does not recognize XPM2 at all; even if the file format is explicitly specified as XPM it still doesn't work)
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18:00:02 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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23:01:19 <Soni> int-e: still there?
23:03:09 <boily> `5 w
23:03:53 <HackEgo> 1/2:i//I SIGNIFICAT NVMERVM VNVM \ roborosewater//RoboRosewater is generating random Magic: the Gathering cards, see https://mobile.twitter.com/roborosewater \ hexham//Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico \ hyperbolic group//Hyperbolic groups are the best groups there are, they're totally awesome and cure cancer. \
23:03:54 <boily> `n
23:03:55 <HackEgo> 2/2: atrix//Atrix is a brand of hand cream. Not to be confused with atriq.
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01:51:04 <boily> fungot: are you vegetarian?
01:51:05 <fungot> boily: mr president, the european union and, on the basis of article 100c of the treaty, insurance system reforms and policy are national responsibilities. emu leads to economic chaos, whilst proceeding with emu is precisely to go further than the commission's original proposal with regard to the convention.
01:58:17 <quintopia> helloily
01:58:37 <quintopia> i got a postcard
01:59:06 <quintopia> your t's are like e's and your g's are like z's
01:59:43 <quintopia> it took me some research to determine that "sizhes" was "sights"
02:00:09 <quintopia> (my mom deciphered it)
02:00:57 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
02:01:07 <boily> <_<'... >_>;...
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02:01:40 <boily> at least it got to destination!
02:03:14 <boily> `le/rn sizhes//You may need to adjust your sights to understand sizhes.
02:03:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'sizhes': You may need to adjust your sights to understand sizhes.
02:03:43 <quintopia> `wisdom beer
02:03:44 <HackEgo> That's not wise.
02:03:56 <quintopia> :'(
02:04:08 <quintopia> beer is great hackego
02:04:13 <boily> `? beer
02:04:14 <HackEgo> beer? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:04:42 <quintopia> oh
02:05:15 <quintopia> `le/rn beer/beer never ships from quebec
02:05:15 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
02:05:30 <quintopia> `le/rn beer//beer never ships from quebec
02:05:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'beer': beer never ships from quebec
02:06:52 <boily> v_v...
02:10:52 <boily> `le/rn beer/Beer never ships from Québec.
02:10:53 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
02:11:00 <boily> aurgh.
02:11:03 <boily> `le/rn beer//Beer never ships from Québec.
02:11:06 <HackEgo> Relearned 'beer': Beer never ships from Québec.
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08:22:56 <shachaf> `? taneb
08:22:58 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
08:23:06 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
08:23:07 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
08:23:36 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s/sanity, /&Italian, /
08:23:39 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
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11:42:23 <Neo1> come on everybody )
11:42:32 <Neo1> what are you doing here?
11:55:19 <boily> things!
12:13:14 <Slereah> Profiting of my first day of holidays
12:13:23 <Slereah> (I'm sorting the science papers on my computer)
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23:20:42 <imode> is multiset rewriting turing complete?
23:22:42 <ais523> what definition of "rewriting" are you using? something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran is Turing-complete
23:22:59 <ais523> and was accidentally rediscovered by oerjan as a rewriting-like system before he discovered it already existed
23:27:02 <imode> replacement rules, but not over strings.
23:28:45 <ais523> Fractran's is literally just specifying a multiset to remove and a multiset to add in its place (with a command doing nothing if you can't do that)
23:28:53 <ais523> that seems like the multiset equivalent of a string rewriting rule
23:29:18 <imode> mm, kind of. as in, you have a set of elements you're searching for on the right hand side, and a list of elements to replace them with on the left hand side.
23:29:39 <imode> "abc" -> "def" is equivalent to "acb" -> "fed", etc.
23:30:01 <alercah> imode: this sounds like fractran, yeah
23:30:07 <imode> only the quantity of each element matters in the replacement, not the order.
23:30:15 <ais523> this sounds even more like fractran
23:30:33 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_system
23:30:48 <imode> a more interesting example, but I'm not dealing with membranes.
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23:51:19 <imode> it makes me wonder if the ordering of strings is even required.
23:51:33 <imode> to be turing complete, that is.
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2017-10-12
00:01:56 <ais523> I'm tempted to just link you to Fractran again :-P
00:02:52 <ais523> (note that evaulation order in Fractran doesn't matter for TCness; you can write programs so that only one rule at a time ever applies)
00:05:58 <imode> right, but fractran isn't quite like what I'm thinking.
00:06:09 <imode> it's not that equivalent.
00:07:57 <myname> how so?
00:09:20 <imode> well, fractran's state is a single number, while a multiset rewriting system's state is, well, a multiset.
00:09:26 <imode> it's very different.
00:09:27 <myname> abc -> def perfectly translates to 7*11*13/1*3*5
00:09:39 <myname> 2*3*5
00:09:46 <ais523> imode: convert it to a prime factorisation
00:09:55 <ais523> the fact that you can treat that as a single number is mostly just coincidence
00:10:15 <ais523> actual fractran programming uses the multiset view pretty much all the time
00:10:16 <quintopia> helloily
00:10:20 <imode> so you're just choosing primes as the alphabet.
00:10:24 <quintopia> aishello
00:10:28 <quintopia> himode
00:10:28 <imode> in fractran.
00:10:29 <myname> exactly
00:10:41 <imode> alright, I can see that. creative.
00:10:51 <imode> leibniz would be proud.
00:12:40 <quintopia> generalized collatz functions are p cool guys. they golf well and dont afraid of any computable n7mber
00:13:15 <imode> that however lends itself to larger and larger numbers which is rather inconvenient.
00:13:37 <imode> but that's really simple, actually.
00:14:01 <shachaf> ais523: whoa, I didn't know order wasn't required for Fractran
00:14:34 <imode> I can see why it doesn't, because prime factorization's order doesn't matter, and that naturally maps to a multiset.
00:14:58 <shachaf> I mean the order of instructions.
00:15:12 <ais523> shachaf: it's required by the spec, but you can change that part of the spec and it still works
00:15:14 <shachaf> Or whatever those are called. Fractions.
00:15:17 <shachaf> Right.
00:15:21 <imode> fractrans. :P
00:16:01 <ais523> I tend to program fractran and thue the same way, i.e. so that the order of evaluation is irrelevant to the program
00:16:22 <ais523> fractran is actually probably a more convenient language, thue has bad wire-crossing-like problems
00:16:31 <ais523> in that trying to get data from one end of the program to the other is a pain
00:16:36 <ais523> you can do it, just normally need a huge number of cases
00:16:53 <shachaf> Since when do people talk about esolangs in here?
00:17:15 <imode> lol.
00:17:43 <imode> ais523: yeah that was my initial gripe. because ordering mattered you're essentially constructing a 1D CA with an arbitrary neighborhood.
00:17:50 <imode> hard to program in.
00:18:15 <ais523> shachaf: it's more likely when I'm in here (admittedly, not /much/ more likely, and in this case imode started it)
00:18:20 <ais523> I like ontopic discussion though
00:18:25 <imode> whereas an unordered set (or in this case, an unordered multiset) is more convenient.
00:18:56 <imode> it's not hard to take a unary representation of a number and double it for example, but in thue the representation becomes unwieldy.
00:19:53 <ais523> actually in thue that's pretty easy if you have a marker at each end
00:19:59 <ais523> just run a cursor along the number
00:20:04 <ais523> |1 ::= 11|
00:20:21 <ais523> and get the markers at each end to handle the cursor appropriately (they'll need to do something to fit this into your program's control flow)
00:26:32 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis leibniz and godel have something in common, in that they fetishized about primes and their properties for uniqueness. :P
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00:29:42 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA, his523, imellode, mynamello, helloochaf.
00:29:58 <imode> boily: is there a bot capable of that in here?
00:30:18 <ais523> I don't see what benefit a bot woudl have
00:30:29 <ais523> although hackego is capable of just about anything as long as the output's a function of the input
00:30:54 <imode> automation is what keeps bored minds busy. :P
00:31:16 <boily> automating porthelloes isn't trivial.
00:34:17 <quintopia> its almost like correctly conjugating present tense verbs and deciding when to use an article on a noun simultaneously
00:35:05 <quintopia> boily has tried to describe his porthello algorithm and it mostly comes out "however sounds good to me"
00:35:19 <boily> something like that.
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00:41:29 <ais523> the algorithm only seems unclear in cases where the original word doesn't have exactly one "o" pronounced as such
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01:46:39 <oerjan> <ais523> and was accidentally rediscovered by oerjan as a rewriting-like system before he discovered it already existed <-- no, that's a misunderstanding, i had definitely heard of the fraction version (from the math institute's encyclopedia iirc) - i just had no idea what it was _called_.
01:46:55 <ais523> oh, I see
01:47:01 <ais523> so you called it something else
01:47:21 <oerjan> and included a symbolic format
01:50:16 <oerjan> <ais523> (note that evaulation order in Fractran doesn't matter for TCness; you can write programs so that only one rule at a time ever applies) <-- istr we found out that was false at some point.
01:51:05 <ais523> oerjan: oh right, now you mention it, perhaps I misremembered
01:51:24 <ais523> in which case I've been spreading misinformation
01:51:34 <ais523> (very slowly, on and off over the last several years)
01:51:49 <ais523> the problem being that you can't prove, without some evaluation order restriction, that a particular element /isn't/ contained
01:51:53 <ais523> in the multiset
01:52:45 <shachaf> whoa, just when I thought I was informed.
01:54:31 <ais523> this is one of those proofs that you can remember how it works when you're reminded it exists, but be implicitly certain with no evidence that the opposite is true the rest of the time
01:55:01 <oerjan> heh
01:57:04 <ais523> I guess it's because I think of the problem as being control flow (which is trivially fixed), not detecting zero
01:57:41 <oerjan> i don't remember 100% how the proof went
01:59:35 <ais523> if a fraction can run at p**0 (* other factors) it can also run at p**n (* the same other factors) for higher n; this means that you can't set a value to 0 without already having a defined maximum value for it
01:59:42 <ais523> that's not the full proof but it's the basic argument
01:59:47 <ais523> and everthing else was just details from there
02:01:52 <oerjan> something like, if there's a non-halting computation then it must at some point produce a number divisible by a previous one.
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02:02:40 <oerjan> and then _everything_ divisible by the previous one can avoid halting
02:03:58 <ais523> oerjan: right
02:05:21 <oerjan> but there's something like a compactness argument hiding in the details, i smell
02:07:04 <oerjan> or perhaps it was linear algebra.
02:12:10 <oerjan> `hello testing
02:12:11 <HackEgo> hello, World!
02:12:15 <oerjan> `hi testing
02:12:16 <HackEgo> Hi testing. Hesting.
02:12:42 <oerjan> hm i vaguely thought there _was_ a porthello command. btwohily.
02:12:56 <oerjan> `ello testing
02:12:57 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ello: not found
02:13:00 <oerjan> hmph
02:13:11 <oerjan> `` cd bin; ls *ll*
02:13:12 <HackEgo> 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ allquotes \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ llist \ roll \ tell \ wellcome \ willkommen
02:14:05 <oerjan> `` ls -l bin/8*
02:14:06 <HackEgo> ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8-ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 Feb 10 2017 bin/8ball
02:14:35 <oerjan> `` ls -l bin/8* | cat -v
02:14:36 <HackEgo> ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8-ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 Feb 10 2017 bin/8^Oball
02:14:49 <oerjan> hm right
02:15:02 <oerjan> `` diff bin/8{,-}ball
02:15:03 <HackEgo> No output.
02:15:36 <ais523> why is there a literal control-O in the name of that file?
02:15:49 <oerjan> that's a secret hth
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02:16:51 <oerjan> `mkx bin/8-ball/8ball "$@"
02:16:51 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
02:16:58 <oerjan> `mkx bin/8-ball//8ball "$@"
02:17:00 <HackEgo> bin/8-ball
02:17:08 <oerjan> `8-ball did this work
02:17:08 <HackEgo> It is decidedly so.
02:17:43 <oerjan> (i prefer that way of avoiding duplication because links have been known to break)
02:18:46 <oerjan> `` cd bin; ls *el*
02:18:47 <HackEgo> autowelcome \ delquote \ delvs \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ elcome \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ help \ makelist \ makelistlist \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ relcome \ reload \ rwelcome \ tell \ velcome \ velkomin \ velkommen \ welcome \ welcome \ Welcome \ welcöme \ welkom \ wellcome
02:19:01 <oerjan> `` cd bin; ls *el* | grep -v elc
02:19:02 <HackEgo> delquote \ delvs \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ help \ makelist \ makelistlist \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ reload \ tell \ velkomin \ velkommen \ welkom \ wellcome
02:19:07 <oerjan> *sigh*
02:19:25 <oerjan> oh well i guess that was about all
02:19:44 <ais523> `thanks oerjan
02:19:45 <HackEgo> Thanks, oerjan. Thoerjan.
02:19:55 <oerjan> `` cd bin; ls *port*
02:19:56 <HackEgo> airport \ airport-lookup \ joustreport \ sport
02:20:00 <ais523> that's probably what you're remembering
02:20:19 <oerjan> no, i recall something doing a more advanced attempt
02:22:34 <shachaf> oerjan: having been pranked, you've joined the ranks of the pranksters? tdh
02:23:20 <oerjan> it's a p good rank
02:43:33 <ais523> eso idea: int : float :: interface : floaterface, now we just need to work out what a floaterface is
02:43:35 <imode> huh. so multiset rewriting is essentially just doing register machine operations..
02:45:35 <ais523> I guess a floaterface is mostly a generalization of an interface (can represent any interface as long as it's not too large), but also can represent partial interfaces, and becomes approximate in some cases?
02:47:23 <shachaf> I'm not sure how to related interfaces to integers
02:47:40 <shachaf> relate
02:47:56 <shachaf> I don't think interfaces are usually totally ordered
02:48:02 <shachaf> That could be interesting in itself
02:50:27 <doesthiswork> I just watched a youtube video without adblock on. There are "buy now" advertisements directly beneath the video now
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02:56:42 <oerjan> . o O ( interface Foo extends NaN )
02:56:46 <shachaf> `? italian
02:56:47 <HackEgo> italian? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:56:51 <shachaf> hm
02:59:42 <oerjan> `? welcome.it
02:59:43 <HackEgo> welcome.it? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:01:53 <oerjan> doesthiswork: that's just one kind of ad youtube uses. afair it only does that when there isn't a full video ad.
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03:02:58 <oerjan> that i've noticed.
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03:07:53 <shachaf> Taneb: please write welcome.it twh
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09:56:43 <Taneb> `? welcome
09:56:45 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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21:22:58 <^v> welp
21:23:04 <^v> i've mastered SKI calc
21:23:30 <^v> it's time to transcend existence into the esoteric realm
21:24:00 <myname> huh? is ski conscidered hard in any way?
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21:29:20 <^v> myname, succ = S(K(S(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K))))))(S(S(K(S))(S(K(S(K(S))))(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K)))))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K))))))(K(K(S(K)(K)))))
21:29:28 <^v> all this does is take a church number and add 1
21:30:14 <myname> so?
21:30:28 <^v> its complicated af
21:30:57 <myname> i mean, yeah, i couldn't write it out freely, but conversion from and to lambda calculus is pretty easy
21:31:24 <^v> yeah i'm making my language convert lambda calc to SKI
21:33:44 <^v> if the existing output wasnt already horrendous
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23:09:30 <int-e> that seems overly complicated, hmm
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23:23:41 <int-e> ^v: how about S (S (K S) K)
23:24:28 <int-e> (which is much smaller than I expected, yay)
23:24:36 <Guest95245> Converting lambda to SKI is trivial, though the hard part is finding an expression that's short
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2017-10-13
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00:30:12 <boily> shachaf: helloochaf. ysac has corrupted me; I whangjangle my food.
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00:33:46 <imode> boily: do you suck at cooking.
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00:37:24 <boily> imode: according to a panel of reliable sources, apparently not.
00:37:32 <boily> (even if my dashi is weak.)
00:44:20 <imode> boily: then you cannot whangjangle. you aren't qualified.
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00:57:30 * imode wonders that, if multiset rewriting corresponds to working with register machines, what does regular set rewriting correspond to?
01:01:27 <shachaf> Machines with 1-bit registers?
01:02:18 <imode> that's kind of what I thought. loooooots of registers. :P
01:02:59 <imode> wonder if that's still TC, though. I imagine you could form rule 110 with that with some.. effort.
01:04:21 <imode> or build the semantics of a multiset rewriting system on top of that.
01:04:52 <imode> i.e treat a span of bits as one binary number and use that to represent one register. that'd be hellish.
01:05:16 <shachaf> A finite number of finite registers still isn't going to be enough on its own.
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01:05:43 <imode> yeah.
01:06:02 <imode> but then you just keep expanding the number of possible symbols.
01:06:09 <imode> so you end up with a really large alphabet.
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01:38:44 <quintopia> helloily
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01:42:35 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
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01:46:43 <oerjan> byeli
01:53:07 * oerjan wonders how official boily's panel was
02:55:41 <zzo38> Why is ImageMagick not reading XPM format 1 and 2?
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05:53:48 <imode> I wonder why FRACTRAN hasn't gotten as crazy a following as something like brainfuck.
05:54:15 <oerjan> you have to understand prime numbers to use it hth
05:54:26 * oerjan grins evilly
05:54:47 <imode> not.. really. you just have to understand that each prime is a unique symbol and choose your alphabet mapping to each prime carefully
05:55:02 <imode> that's actually the really simple part. the odd part is dealing with pattern matching on registers and shifting values around.
05:55:14 <imode> it's not hard to design a compiler that will do that kind of thing for you.
05:56:24 <imode> I mean you can take any fractran program, look at each fraction, extract the prime factorization of it, convert that into a suitable symbol set (or a set of registers), and build a macro language on top of the resulting (somewhat more legible) rewrite rules.
05:56:48 <imode> I would've expected that a GoL implementation would have surfaced eventually. kind of surprised that I haven't found one yet.
06:03:13 <oerjan> obligatory accompaniment to today's freefall comic http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time
06:05:18 <doesthiswork> that is a extremely famous article
06:06:16 <imode> "For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes." good wisdom right there.
06:30:12 * imode wonders if fractran's rules can be unordered.
06:30:58 <oerjan> imode: oh you didn't see my comment the other day ... they cannot, although i don't remember exactly how the proof went.
06:31:39 <imode> oerjan: interesting. I wonder what modifications would be required to make them unordered. probably something akin to a P system.
06:31:54 <imode> where the resulting rewrites determine which classes of rules get applied.
06:33:31 <oerjan> well you need a way to say that a rule won't be applied if it's divisable by something.
06:34:08 <imode> so rule dependencies.
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06:34:25 <imode> or rather, inverse dependencies.. I guess.
06:34:45 <imode> "do this if these primes are present, but if these are, don't."
06:35:00 <oerjan> in some sense, fractran's linear order is the _simplest_ option for that.
06:35:17 <imode> yeah, because you can prioritize rules.
06:35:38 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_system#Example_computation this is also an option.
06:51:21 <imode> parallel fractran. hmm.
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07:02:02 <shachaf> One thing I like about FRACTRAN is that it doesn't seem like a programming language at all.
07:02:15 <shachaf> If you make the rules slightly more contrived it loses that.
07:02:23 <oerjan> fizzie: hm i suspect the wiki bridge has croaked
07:02:33 <imode> well, it's pretty much just unordered string rewriting.
07:02:37 <shachaf> `? wewlcome.it
07:02:39 <shachaf> uh
07:02:42 <shachaf> `? welcome.it
07:02:45 <HackEgo> wewlcome.it? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
07:02:45 <HackEgo> welcome.it? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
07:02:53 <shachaf> Taneb!!
07:03:08 <oerjan> are you sure Taneb knows italian
07:03:35 <oerjan> isn't it a bit too sexy language
07:04:05 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/Ngevd/status/918012736721883137 hth
07:04:45 <shachaf> Did Taneb invent modal logic?
07:05:11 <oerjan> possibly
07:06:17 <oerjan> hm Taneb seems to have aged. shocking.
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12:08:13 <boily> `5 w
12:08:19 <HackEgo> 1/1:kallisti//kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity. \ @//@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour. \ cia//CIA sees it all. \ lens//A lens is just a store comonad coalgebra. \ fourth wisdom//.wisdoms other the all upon builds wisdom fourth The
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12:26:26 <fizzie> @tell oerjan It might've been because I had to restart HackEgo. Did the same for the bridge as well, maybe it works now.
12:26:26 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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13:56:28 <b_jonas> fungot, in Greek mythology, is there such a thing as artifact weapon or armor forged by mortals, or do all of them have to be forged by a deity, usually Hēphaistos or Pallas Athēnē?
13:56:29 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, on a point of order, and i regret not having been used to ban tv advertising and indirect advertising. it has not yet put forward any reasoned objections within the 30-day period; secondly, certainty as to the future, within the meaning defined in the treaty.
13:59:10 <int-e> the longwinded europarl style makes it abundantly clear that fungot cannot form any coherent thought.
13:59:11 <fungot> int-e: i do not know for how long it will take shape exactly is still to be done to help us determine the real responsibilities of each of these points is new to us on the issue of alcohol, but also for all those who have flouted the rules in relation to the completion of the internal market.
13:59:39 <int-e> (though arguably that is also true for many politicians)
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14:47:26 <hkgit03> a
14:55:34 <int-e> b
15:04:24 <hkgit03> The next logical letter would be v of course.
15:05:16 <int-e> abvgd?
15:05:38 <hkgit03> http://oeis.org/A279619
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15:08:23 <int-e> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWDlaXrJOI4 hmmmm
15:08:48 <hkgit03> Ah ^^
15:08:51 <hkgit03> logical.
15:08:54 <int-e> strange stuff, but indeed it does include the russian alphabet.
15:09:35 <int-e> `unidecode абвгд
15:09:36 <HackEgo> ​[U+0430 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER A] [U+0431 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER BE] [U+0432 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER VE] [U+0433 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER GHE] [U+0434 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER DE]
15:10:04 <b_jonas> int-e: use the full alphabet. abvgdeëžzijklmnoprstufhcčšŝʺyʹèûâ
15:10:58 <hkgit03> That is not the russian alphabet, is it?
15:11:42 <b_jonas> hkgit03: it is, in ISO 9 transcription
15:11:47 <int-e> I can see the resemblence
15:12:59 <b_jonas> or maybe you want the serbian alphabet, a b v g d đ e ž z i j k l lj m n nj o p r s t ć u f h c č dž š
15:13:07 <b_jonas> or one of the many other alphabets that start with a b v g d
15:13:08 <hkgit03> Uhuh okay
15:13:33 <hkgit03> Of course. That was exactly what I was going for.
15:15:48 <int-e> abgde is a logical order for an alphabet
15:16:18 <int-e> the abcde order should have a different name ;-)
15:17:33 <b_jonas> int-e: the order is not really logical, more like traditional, inherited from the Phoenicians, and now various variants of it are used by tons of alphabets, sometimes multiple different orders for the same language
15:18:52 <b_jonas> `? ameraval
15:18:53 <HackEgo> ameraval? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:22:58 <b_jonas> the battery of my mobile phone not only drains faster but also gets warm if I listen to music all day
15:23:29 <b_jonas> still not too hot, just warm
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18:21:57 <zzo38> I do not have the file "/usr/lib/X11/rgb.txt" in my computer. Is there another directory it may be under instead?
18:23:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: try /usr/share/X11/rgb.txt
18:23:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: these days unix distros put everything in usr that is shared among all machines of all architectures in /usr/share
18:23:59 <b_jonas> and architecture-specific stuff only in /usr/lib and /usr/libexec
18:24:17 <zzo38> OK
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18:25:16 <b_jonas> I think it started back when this was used to spare disk space by mounting /usr/share and /usr through NFS, but mounting the same /usr/share on multiple machines, or something, but these days more and more stuff is split to multiple directories according to architectures, mostly so that you can have x86_32 and x86_64 libraries ran on the same machine or something,
18:25:27 <b_jonas> so the share split turns out to be very useful.
18:26:06 <b_jonas> Note that /usr has read-only data that can be shared among multiple machines of the same architecture in first place
18:26:24 <b_jonas> data specific to one machine goes to /var or /etc
18:28:00 <b_jonas> debian often patches install directories from upstream packages to conform to these directory structures
18:28:20 <b_jonas> although most software these days already use the right directories anyway
18:29:02 <b_jonas> and most allow overrides via make variables or configure options or something, because GNU encouraged that in the guidelines they sneakily put into the gnu make reference docs
18:29:44 <b_jonas> but of course in most free software it's easy to modify paths in the source
18:30:36 <zzo38> The program I am writing doesn't actually need to find the file anyways, since if it is wanted the user will specify the filename explicitly anyways, but it is helpful to know where it is installed.
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18:33:07 <zzo38> (I am writing a program to read XPM pictures. I already wrote one to write XPM pictures.)
18:33:28 <zzo38> (In both cases, all three formats are implemented.)
18:34:54 <zzo38> ImageMagick supports only format 3, while Netpbm supports only format 1 and 3, it seems, and neither support monochrome mode.
18:37:42 <b_jonas> do people even still use xbm and xpm pictures for anything? I thought those were formats for icons on machines with little memory and low bitdepth monitors.
18:38:11 <zzo38> XPM2 seems a reasonable format for using with a text editor, at least.
18:41:12 <zzo38> They can also be used including in C programs (except XPM2).
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18:57:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53202&oldid=52782 * HereToAnnoy * (+31) wip
18:58:15 <fizzie> Looks like it's working again.
19:18:17 <pikhq> Once upon a time they were very useful as a lowest-common-denominator file format.
19:18:27 <pikhq> I'm not sure who uses it much right now, though.
19:21:09 <\oren\> pikhq: yeah the standard "output an image ad-hoc" format is PBM
19:21:13 <b_jonas> still no word of a newIOCCC
19:21:50 <pikhq> PBM is a bit of an irritating format, though.
19:21:54 <zzo38> pikhq: As I mentioned, for including in C codes and to be suitable for editing with a text editor.
19:22:02 <pikhq> It *looks* simpler than it is.
19:22:16 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, yes, I know why you'd want to use it. :) I just don't know if anyone does.
19:22:19 <zzo38> For "output an image ad-hoc" I prefer farbfeld.
19:22:56 <pikhq> Though for outputting only, PBM is similarly simple.
19:23:14 <zzo38> (Although I wrote dvipbm before farbfeld was invented, and anyways the printer driver needs PBM.)
19:23:14 <pikhq> The file format just has some surprising complexity when reading it.
19:23:19 <pikhq> (comments, for instance)
19:23:38 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is true, for outputting only PBM is simple enough (and supports multi-page, which is needed for using with printing).
19:24:48 <b_jonas> I find PNM a bit limiting, so I prefer to write raw images, and send the metadata separately, such as in the command line of ffmpeg or imagemagick
19:25:04 <b_jonas> and the same for reading it
19:26:00 <zzo38> b_jonas: Why won't you use farbfeld instead then? (ImageMagick does not implement farbfeld, but it ought to! Write a module for it if you want it)
19:26:06 <b_jonas> PNM only supports one endianness and it's the wrong one, only supports grayscale or RGB, not other channel configurations, etc
19:26:54 <zzo38> Nevertheless I intend these Farbfeld Utilities program will including conversion to/from any format, whether common (such as PNG) or obscure (such as XZIP Picture Library format).
19:28:05 <pikhq> b_jonas: PAM fixes the channel configuration bit.
19:28:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: besides the bit depth (which PNM can hvae multiple), I want to use the exact channel configuration (eg. possibly bgr, bgr0, bgra, rgb, argb, alpha only, yuv444) and interlacing (channels of a pixel together, channels for whole image one after another) that
19:28:29 <pikhq> As for the endianness... Bi-endian file formats can fuck off.
19:28:45 <b_jonas> are the most convenient for the particular use. a program like ffmpeg or imagemagick can use whatever configuration I want, and handle the conversions itself.
19:28:54 <b_jonas> why bother with the conversion myself when they can do it already?
19:29:06 <zzo38> Yes, OK, you can do that if you wish, too.
19:29:39 <b_jonas> oh, and also padding at the end of lines.
19:30:44 <b_jonas> also, ffmpeg and imagemagick (imagemagick in any way, as in, command line, high-level C api, C++ api) can do some simple filtering steps that I often want to do right before reading or writing the image, such as cropping or resampling to smaller before write, rotating or flipping before read.
19:31:16 <zzo38> (I could also provide a program in Farbfeld Utilities that will support raw non-indexed pictures; I already have a file for raw indexed pictures. Although there is also ff-swizzle. And in the case just of "bgr" or "rgb" simple 8-bits-per-channel, together, you could probably use ff-scanf to do this too (although I have not tried).)
19:31:48 <pikhq> It amuses me that, if you don't mind having a somewhat silly and large output, you can reasonably do uncompressed PNG output pretty easily.
19:31:55 <b_jonas> I actually have a simple C++ wrapper that spawns an ffmpeg process to read or write an image or video, and allows a variety of these options,
19:32:00 <pikhq> (it's more complex than Farbfeld or PNM, naturally, but it's not that hard)
19:32:12 <b_jonas> but only those options that I have needed so far, because ffmpeg has an infinity of useful options, so the simple wrapper won't ever cover it all.
19:32:26 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose you can do that if you like to do (although then, I think, you should need the checksum?)
19:32:37 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, you do need the checksums.
19:32:42 <pikhq> (there's two)
19:32:52 <pikhq> It's CRC-32 and Adler32 both.
19:33:04 <pikhq> They're both pretty easy to write, though.
19:33:14 <pikhq> I will freely grant this is not the most useful thing in the world.
19:33:25 <pikhq> But it's pretty quick, and easier than using libpng.
19:34:51 <zzo38> Farbfeld Utilities "ffpng" program can do that though, with a command such as "ffpng b0 c2 e-1 f0" or such.
19:35:12 <pikhq> *nod*
19:35:14 <b_jonas> pikhq: crc-32? what the heck?
19:35:42 <zzo38> ("b0" disables compression, "c2" specifies RGB, "e-1" forces it to use a single block, and "f0" disables filtering.)
19:36:03 <pikhq> b_jonas: It's a standard checksum, and PNG requires it for each chunk.
19:36:13 <b_jonas> I didn't know png had that
19:36:40 <pikhq> Adler32 comes into it because the contents of the image chunk(s) are just zlib streams.
19:37:58 <b_jonas> yes, I know that part
19:38:07 <b_jonas> I just didn't know there was an extra checksum
19:38:14 <b_jonas> do reader programs actually check that?
19:38:19 <pikhq> Yes.
19:38:43 <pikhq> Also, every *single* chunk in PNG is CRC32'd.
19:38:45 <b_jonas> I mean, a browser can start displaying the image before having downloaded the whole thing, and usually most of the image is one chunk
19:38:58 <b_jonas> one big chunk
19:38:58 <pikhq> (there's more chunks than just image data)
19:39:02 <b_jonas> pikhq: sure
19:39:11 <pikhq> Yeah, but they barf if the checksum turns out to have been wrong, generally.
19:39:37 <pikhq> And there's reader programs that aren't browsers.
19:40:00 <b_jonas> sure
19:40:46 <b_jonas> mind you, I mostly just see truncated jpegs on the web, I don't remember having seen a truncated png
19:50:40 <zzo38> A few of my programs can work with multi-frame pictures, and generally expect the frames to be arranged in a vertical strip. (Although also a program is provided to convert this if needed.) For formats such as Famicom pattern tables, the reading is automatically like a vertical strip, and can write using a vertical strip as input too even if the height is unknown, because it is the order of the data already.
19:51:24 <zzo38> (Some other programs use a horizontal strip instead, although I think vertical strip format is more a more natural format.)
19:53:17 <zzo38> One feature of XPM that others usually don't have is customizable colours. Also, it can include a monochrome as well as a colour version in the same picture.
19:54:34 <zzo38> (As far as I know, other formats do not do this, except that the YZIP Picture Library format (not the XZIP format) allows palettes to include optional stipple patterns for use with monochrome display.)
19:55:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: for videos, the important constraints in my program is that (a) the video read and write is streaming, so if I write a long video, then only data for a few dozen frames is held in memory at a time,
19:56:07 <b_jonas> and (b) I don't spawn a program for each video frame, because that's slow.
19:56:22 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is correct, it make sense.
19:56:43 <b_jonas> by the way, my code does two more conveniences, although both are because ffmpeg can already easily do that:
19:57:03 <b_jonas> firstly, I can read or write multiple numbered image files with the same shape instead of a video,
19:57:09 <zzo38> (And the draft for the TAVERN picture format allows a picture to have any number of associated palettes, so you could have a different version of the picture (or just a different palette) for composite output, RGB output, monochrome, low resolution vs high resolution, etc.)
19:57:42 <b_jonas> and I can display image or video in a window instead of writing it to a file (useful because sometimes I want one, sometimes the other in the same program, for debugging)
19:57:56 <zzo38> OK
19:58:45 <b_jonas> the C++ wrapper is needed because the ffmpeg interface is a bit... strange, and there's a lot of stupid workarounds needed, so the wrapper does the ones I've encountered so far
19:59:09 <zzo38> OK
19:59:12 <b_jonas> but I got the ffmpeg devs to fix a bug or two I encountered in this, which is nice
20:06:03 <zzo38> You can tell me of other formats that you or someone else might want in Farbfeld Utilities, and/or to possibly contribute the codes for such formats. Currently it does not have many, and some can read only, and some can write only. (Some subformats also are currently not implemented, such as, cannot read bmp with RLE, and cannot use JPEG with 12-bits or arithmetic coding.
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20:09:50 <b_jonas> `? farbfeld
20:09:51 <HackEgo> farbfeld? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:10:03 <b_jonas> do we have a wisdom about this?
20:10:36 <zzo38> Add one if you know what to write about it
20:13:00 <int-e> I rather suspect that farbfeld is not vaporware.
20:13:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TwoFiftyFive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53203 * HereToAnnoy * (+1584) Created page with "TwoFiftyFive is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:HereToAnnoy]] with only two instructions and limited memory. ==Syntax== ===Instructions=== * Move instruction (<..."
20:14:36 <pikhq> It isn't, it's just niche.
20:14:38 <zzo38> One thing I can think of, is if there is some way to make the JPEG decoder so that (by user option) it can try to recover some of the quality of the picture if it was encoded with low quality, to make it less "blocky" output.
20:14:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TwoFiftyFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53204&oldid=53203 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) minor formatting edit
20:14:45 <b_jonas> `slashlearn farbfeld//zzo38's Farbfeld utilities is a package of command-line programs (with rather strange command-line syntax) for manipulating images in a specific raw format called farbfeld. It's somewhat underdocumented. http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/home
20:14:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'farbfeld': zzo38's Farbfeld utilities is a package of command-line programs (with rather strange command-line syntax) for manipulating images in a specific raw format called farbfeld. It's somewhat underdocumented. http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/home
20:15:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TwoFiftyFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53205&oldid=53204 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) another minor formatting edit
20:15:59 <zzo38> Yes, those things is true, that is OK.
20:16:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Focus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53206&oldid=53200 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) minor formatting edit
20:17:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: how do you use ffpng to write 8-bit per channel depth images instead of 16-bit channel deep?
20:17:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53207&oldid=53196 * HereToAnnoy * (+67) added TwoFiftyFive to contributions list
20:18:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: It will automatically do that if it can be done losslessly. (You can also explicitly specify by the use of the "c" option.)
20:19:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, nice, you've developped farbfeld.ui and its documentation a lot since I've last seen it
20:19:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but I don't know how to reduce an image to 8 bit per channle depth easily first
20:20:02 <b_jonas> ah, the c option
20:20:39 <b_jonas> c sets the color space and then the bit depth. nice
20:20:50 <zzo38> To reduce the image first, use "ff-poster 8", if you need to do that.
20:21:00 <b_jonas> that reminds me
20:21:27 <b_jonas> since farbfeld format doesn't use premultiplied alpha, is there a program to turn all fully transparent pixels to black?
20:21:33 <b_jonas> to transparent black I mean
20:21:53 <b_jonas> so as to save space when writing in an image format that also doesn't use premultiplied alpha, such as png
20:22:08 <zzo38> No, although you are right, it can be a good idea.
20:22:35 <b_jonas> this could be an option in ffpng too of course
20:23:10 <zzo38> I will just make it a separate program I think
20:24:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, but note that you may have to do this after reducing bit depth for a true color (non-indexed) image
20:24:14 <b_jonas> so that's two extra steps for a 8-bit per channel deep png
20:24:36 <b_jonas> which is why it would be useful in ffpng
20:24:53 <b_jonas> if you make it a separate program, then offer a transparency value cutoff parameter too
20:25:10 <zzo38> OK, I will add a cutoff parameter (zero by default).
20:25:24 <b_jonas> thanks
20:26:11 <b_jonas> and if you don't add an option to ffpng, then at least write about the correct pipeline for 8-bit per channel rgb with alpha in the docs of ffpng
20:26:44 <zzo38> Yes, OK I will do that (the wiki is editable by everyone though, so you can also write about it if you want to do so)
20:30:34 <zzo38> OK, I added "ff-transopt" program which does that.
20:31:56 <zzo38> OK, and now I added that note to the documentation of ffpng, too.
20:37:13 <b_jonas> nice
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21:11:58 <\oren\> lol I decreased the memory usage of a program by a factor of ten thousand
21:12:27 <\oren\> previously used 49 gigabytes, now uses 5.4 kilobytes
21:12:35 <\oren\> er, megabytes
21:12:54 <\oren\> stupid ps outputting
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21:13:41 <tswett> Yo.
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21:14:31 <tswett> I just realized that it's possible to write the traditional call-with-current-continuation function in "fake Lua".
21:14:45 <zzo38> tswett: OK, how is that?
21:15:00 <tswett> That is, it's almost valid Lua code, but it does something illegal.
21:15:06 <tswett> Lemme see if I can write it out here.
21:16:26 <tswett> function call_cc(callback, arg) local result; function curr_cont(r) result = r; goto finish end; result = callback(curr_cont, arg); ::finish:: return result end
21:16:56 <tswett> I guess the "arg" bit is unnecessary, but kinda convenient.
21:17:58 <tswett> It's not legal Lua because you can't jump from an inner function into a label defined in the outer function.
21:19:00 <zzo38> Yes, and actually I think once I have suggested to add "goto" into JavaScript and to allow it to work like that in order to make up such thing, by making a kind of "evasive exceptions".
21:24:16 <tswett> Yeah, I guess Lua has two forms of "stack-subverting" control flow.
21:24:26 <tswett> Exceptions and coroutines.
21:31:21 <zzo38> Do you know what is the syntax for HSV colour codes in XPM file? The document just says that it is not implemented.
21:32:57 <tswett> No clue.
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23:04:49 <wob_jonas> I'm reading https://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas and lol on "four loop"
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23:26:57 <wob_jonas> What is the name of the theoerm that it's possible to write comments in any sane programming language that's expressive enough?
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23:44:19 <Guest95245> What if it's a language that only accepts non-alphabetic characters
23:49:21 <boily> the language, or the comment language?
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23:53:28 <oerjan> @messages-fold
23:53:28 <lambdabot> fizzie said 11h 27m 2s ago: It might've been because I had to restart HackEgo. Did the same for the bridge as well, maybe it works now.
23:53:53 <shachaf> is that the command that reduces your messages
23:58:26 <oerjan> sheesh it's been a long time since i looked at my stackoverflow tab, there's a favorite edit from jan '16 i hadn't seen
23:59:13 <boily> hellørjan, helloochaf.
23:59:52 <wob_jonas> Are there programming languages where a team of programmers have to enter the program quickly on a guitar hero controller?
2017-10-14
00:00:23 <oerjan> reputation and responses get notices if i'm on PPCG, but not favorites.
00:00:50 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yes, for favourites, you have to check your favourites tab in the profile. those don't send messages.
00:01:14 <oerjan> wob_jonas: and it's separate for each stackexchange site
00:01:36 <oerjan> helloily.
00:02:13 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yeah. maybe you can write a third-party program to handle this. stackexchange has reasonably well documented apis for most things, except the chat.
00:15:49 <wob_jonas> although if you want to handle multiple SE sites, it gets slow even with a third-part app, because most of the apis access only one site
00:15:58 <wob_jonas> and the data dumps are per site too
00:17:38 <wob_jonas> And multiple sites does occur. I now have posts on 27 SE sites, not counting site metas and area 51.
00:17:48 <wob_jonas> Only one post on many of them, but still.
00:19:00 <oerjan> i'm just registered on five, anyhow. just checked and the only thing on the rest was a couple of rep notices
00:19:20 <wob_jonas> I'm registered to many more. Registration to additional sites is practically free.
00:19:27 <wob_jonas> But a registration itself doesn't mean much.
00:20:10 <wob_jonas> oerjan: on how many of those five sites do you actually have a question or answer or some other significant contribution?
00:24:13 <oerjan> four of them - the only site where i registered solely to upvote something is super user
00:24:30 <oerjan> because that site had solutions to several problems i've had with windows.
00:24:40 <oerjan> i have never asked a question anywhere.
00:24:57 <wob_jonas> I see
00:25:44 <oerjan> and i believe i'm on code review solely because of an answer migrated from stackoverflow.
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00:26:29 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yeah, I have a question on Chemistry SE but I never asked a question there
00:26:45 <wob_jonas> migrations are fun
00:27:25 <oerjan> there are some other sites i could have registered on to upvote something, like the russian stackexchange. but i've been too lazy.
00:27:59 <wob_jonas> um... it's had unified logins for quite long, so registering on an additional site is trivial if you're
00:28:05 <wob_jonas> already registered on one
00:28:23 <oerjan> well sure. i've just not bothered to do it just to vote.
00:28:39 <oerjan> maybe i should upvote that one.
00:30:26 <oerjan> (it was a word in the lyrics to Moscow Nights that i couldn't find on wiktionary and the top google hit was a stackexchange question about it.)
00:32:14 <oerjan> oh looked it up, the site _is_ in russian so i had to use google translate to understand it. still worth it.
00:32:46 <oerjan> https://rus.stackexchange.com/questions/32668/%D0%A7%D1%82%D0%BE-%D1%82%D1%8B-%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%88%D1%8C-%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B0-%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%83-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%8F
00:33:26 <oerjan> eep but that makes registration rather awkward
00:36:13 <wob_jonas> `? eor
00:36:15 <HackEgo> eor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:36:15 <wob_jonas> `? accumulator
00:36:16 <HackEgo> accumulator? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:36:16 <wob_jonas> `? ior
00:36:17 <HackEgo> ior? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:36:48 <wob_jonas> `? xoer
00:36:49 <HackEgo> xoer? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:36:49 <wob_jonas> `? xor
00:36:50 <HackEgo> Xor is just addition of nimbers.
00:37:01 <wob_jonas> `? or
00:37:02 <HackEgo> Or is an Intercal unary operator.
00:37:18 <wob_jonas> `? aor
00:37:19 <HackEgo> aor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:37:27 <wob_jonas> `? oor
00:37:28 <HackEgo> oor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:37:29 <wob_jonas> `? uor
00:37:30 <HackEgo> uor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:37:37 <wob_jonas> `? nor
00:37:38 <HackEgo> nor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:37:46 <wob_jonas> ``` echo wisdom/?or
00:37:47 <HackEgo> wisdom/xor
00:39:06 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn eor//"eor" is Old English for "xor".
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00:39:09 <HackEgo> Learned 'eor': "eor" is Old English for "xor".
00:39:11 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn ior//"ior" is Old English for "or".
00:39:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'ior': "ior" is Old English for "or".
00:41:47 <oerjan> the answer by behemothus is fascinating, even if google translate doesn't make it _entirely_ understandable.
00:42:01