←2017-08 2017-09 2017-10→ ↑2017 ↑all
2017-09-01
00:01:08 <\oren\> "In the early 1970s a feasibility study was conducted for a project to build a canal from the Mediterranean Sea to the Qattara Depression in the Western Desert of Egypt using nuclear demolition. This project proposed to use 213 devices, with yields of 1 to 1.5 megatons detonated at depths of 100 to 500 meters, to build this canal for the purpose of producing hydroelectric power."
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00:24:01 <Hoolootwo> water doesn't do a very good job of absorbing pressure, since it's very near incompressible
00:24:27 <Hoolootwo> could a light gas like hydrogen work?
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00:25:21 <oerjan> `? tanebventions
00:25:23 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:26:15 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s;sanity;&, the grace period;
00:26:19 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anyth
00:27:24 <oerjan> `? tanebventions: math
00:27:25 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
00:28:14 <Taneb> Oh dear
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00:28:26 <oerjan> it's time for some rearrangements
00:32:02 <oerjan> `? tanebvention
00:32:04 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving
00:32:18 <Taneb> It is true that I never invent anything involving
00:33:24 <shachaf> Taneb never invents anythimble
00:33:38 <shachaf> `? mushroom
00:33:39 <HackEgo> mushroom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:35:17 <oerjan> `le/rn tanebventions: food//Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:35:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'tanebventions: food': Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:35:58 <shachaf> `` grWp -l ' '
00:36:00 <HackEgo> haskell \ haskell' \ rules of wisdom \ speedy gonzales \ tanebventions: food \ tip
00:36:06 <shachaf> `? haskell
00:36:07 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
00:36:09 <oerjan> oops
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00:36:13 <shachaf> `? haskell'
00:36:14 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
00:36:14 <oerjan> `le/rn tanebventions: food//Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:36:17 <HackEgo> Relearned 'tanebventions: food': Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:38:18 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s.aut[^,], ..;s/wee.*rooms, //s.cognac, ..
00:38:19 <HackEgo> ​/bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 31: unknown option to `s'
00:38:39 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s.aut[^,], ..;s/wee.*rooms, //;s.cognac, ..
00:38:41 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:39:08 <oerjan> that's wrong.
00:39:28 <oerjan> oh
00:39:41 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s.aut[^,]*, ..
00:39:43 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:40:53 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions//s,maths,& or tanebventions: foods,
00:40:54 <HackEgo> Roswbud!
00:41:04 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s,maths,& or tanebventions: foods,
00:41:06 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:43:08 <oerjan> `dowg haskell'
00:43:17 <HackEgo> 5842:2015-07-17 <Jafët> ` ln wisdom/haskell{,\\\'}
00:43:27 <oerjan> huh
00:43:55 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/haskell\'
00:43:56 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 102 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/haskell'
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00:44:04 <oerjan> hmph
00:44:20 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/haskell
00:44:21 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 102 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/haskell
00:45:12 <oerjan> `? marmite
00:45:13 <HackEgo> Marmite is a hive mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth.
00:52:39 <shachaf> `? speedy gonzales
00:52:40 <HackEgo> Sp e e d y G o n z a l e s i s t h e f a s t e s t
00:52:52 <shachaf> `? tip
00:52:53 <HackEgo> A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
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01:00:21 <izabera> #racism
01:02:15 <quintopia> no tips in japan?
01:02:49 <oerjan> purportedly
01:06:59 <Hoolootwo> there's a couple restaurants around here that don't take tips, mostly east asian places
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01:12:51 <alercah> yeah tips are generally not done in asian cultures
01:13:47 <Hoolootwo> `w
01:13:48 <HackEgo> costume//Costumes are used for cosplay. Taneb sometimes invents them.
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01:36:41 <boily> `5 w
01:36:46 <HackEgo> 1/1:epimorphism//An epimorphism is just a monomorphism in the opposite category. \ Э//EH? \ //You are probably using one right now! \ pun//Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings. \ shikhin//shikhin is a Malevolent God, who will promise you stuff tomorrow.
01:36:47 <boily> `n
01:36:48 <HackEgo> 1/1:epimorphism//An epimorphism is just a monomorphism in the opposite category. \ Э//EH? \ //You are probably using one right now! \ pun//Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings. \ shikhin//shikhin is a Malevolent God, who will promise you stuff tomorrow.
01:38:08 <shikhin> What? Tomorrow, dammit.
01:41:03 <shachaf> `? monomorphism
01:41:05 <HackEgo> A monomorphism is just an epimorphism in the opposite category.
01:41:27 <shachaf> So say f is a morphism.
01:41:40 <shachaf> "mono" means "(f .) is injective"
01:41:51 <shachaf> "epi" means "(. f) is injective"
01:42:00 <shachaf> "split mono" means "(. f) is surjective"
01:42:05 <shachaf> "split epi" means "(f .) is surjective"
01:42:26 <shachaf> If f is split x, then it's also x
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01:42:56 <shachaf> And of course if f is mono+split epi, or epi+split mono, then (f .) or (. f) is bijective, and so f is iso
01:43:37 <shachaf> mono morphin' power rangers
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02:29:06 <izabera> aww the p!=np was wrong like the other 3453452 p!=np proofs
02:29:12 <izabera> who would have guessed it
02:30:16 <shachaf> sounds like solid evidence that P=NP hth
02:32:03 <boily> observing a green apple makes it more likely that a black raven is not NP.
02:33:53 <Taneb> boily, Sainsbury's was out of green apples the other day so therefor a black raven is NP!
02:43:20 <oerjan> grmble the first of every month i use to drain the laptop battery because that's supposedly good for it.
02:43:56 <oerjan> but sometimes i forget about it when i'm doing something else, and come back to discover it has turned off.
02:44:13 * oerjan hopes he found the right settings to get it to hibernate instead
02:45:08 <oerjan> at least my browser remembered the tabs this time, it seems.
02:45:36 <oerjan> vim is particularly annoying because of the way it nags when recovering stuff
02:46:27 <shachaf> vim recovery is so annoying
02:47:02 <shachaf> The standard recovery procedure: vim file; press r; save file with another time; diff two files; delete one of the files and the .swp
02:47:15 <shachaf> Is that what you're supposed to do?
02:47:29 <shachaf> It's so manual. I don't get why there isn't a simple thing to automate it.
02:47:59 <oerjan> no, i just ask it to recover, but it half panics because the recovery file is older than the saved one (probably a bug in file times or something)
02:48:10 <oerjan> and i have to deleted the swp files by hand.
02:48:12 <oerjan> *-ed
02:48:48 <Sgeo> Instruction Set where indirect addressing can only be done via self-modifying code: https://github.com/pbl64k/ShenzhenIO-Turing
02:48:48 <oerjan> <izabera> who would have guessed it <-- scott aaronson hth
02:49:14 <ais523> Sgeo: tons of instruction sets are like that, especially very old ones and toy ones
02:49:51 <Sgeo> o.O
02:51:23 <oerjan> as far as i can tell, the .swp file age must be when it was _created_, regardless of when it was changed.
02:52:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Neat.
02:53:30 <oerjan> also not all the .swp files are in the same directory.
02:56:12 <oerjan> otoh forced reboots are my trigger for moving to the next tatham puzzle.
02:58:15 <ais523> oerjan: how old is your laptop? draining batteries is useful for nickel-cadmium batteries but basically all laptops nowadays use lithium batteries, which don't care
02:58:27 <oerjan> hm there were some tabs reopened that i had already closed
02:58:37 <oerjan> ais523: it's from 2013
02:58:53 <oerjan> i guess i can stop doing it, then
02:59:22 <ais523> I admit to occasionally having done it out of habit before remembering that modern batteries don't care
02:59:38 <alercah> lithium batteries it's actually better not to fully drain
02:59:40 <oerjan> although i'm not sure if i saw it suggested in the accompanying manual, or just old habit
02:59:41 <shachaf> But you're still not supposed to charge them to full capacity, right?
02:59:52 <ais523> I guess most people here are young enough to not be aware of the battery draining ritual
02:59:54 <alercah> not fully charging is also good, but harder
02:59:56 <oerjan> shachaf: um i'm not getting a choice for that...
03:00:18 <ais523> my laptop's BIOS has settings where you tell it how you use the battery (e.g. in my case, usually on mains power)
03:00:38 <ais523> and it has built-in rules for charging and discharging the battery in an optimal way based on that
03:00:39 <oerjan> maybe there is some setting.
03:01:12 <oerjan> it _does_ occasionally seem to drain the battery a little, even though i rarely remove the cord
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03:30:57 <shachaf> `5 w
03:31:02 <HackEgo> 1/2:wlcom//Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.) \ htdh//HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao
03:31:19 <shachaf> n
03:31:21 <shachaf> `n
03:31:21 <HackEgo> 2/2:and Don Ho. \ //Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go. \ coulor//Coulor is the correct spelling. \ אrjan//אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
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05:06:55 <Sgeo> "An­other im­por­tant ap­pli­ca­tion of time travel is in com­put­ing. Many newer mi­cro­proces­sors take ad­van­tage of retro­ca­usal con­nec­tions as part of their branch pre­dic­tion and cache prefetch hard­ware, en­abling much higher per­for­mance and clock speeds than be­fore."
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11:36:55 <zseri> shrub?
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13:15:44 <\oren\> On the plus side, my city produces so much sewage that I am able to build a seaport on Shit Creek
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15:50:24 <mroman> moo
15:52:11 <ATMunn> oom
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16:13:27 <mroman> why do cpus use flags
16:13:35 <mroman> if I have three op instructions
16:13:52 <mroman> I might as well have blt target_addr, r0, r1
16:14:12 <ais523> mroman: it's typically because in old CPUs, it's easy to set flags as a side effect without losing any performance
16:14:37 <ais523> adding more ops to an instruction costs performance because the instruction takes longer to read and decode
16:17:21 <mroman> is 3 operands bad?
16:17:27 <mroman> or just different
16:17:34 <ais523> there are tradeoffs with any instruction length
16:17:52 <ais523> other things being equal, though, you want the machine code to be as short as possible so that more of it fits in the cache
16:20:15 <alercah> I dunno anything about modern microcode designs, but in older machines, it's basically free to set a flag since you can hardwire it
16:20:48 <alercah> so if it's used either extremely frequently or extremely infrequently, it has advantages over making it configurable
16:21:22 <ais523> even in modern machines, setting the flag is basically free, reading it can be rather more expensive though (because it introduces a dependency)
16:22:10 <alercah> for jumps in particular, it also lets you compress the jump instructions if they always use the same register to read from
16:25:00 <alercah> and possibly hardware optimize them too?
16:25:28 <mroman> in my case jumps are always absolute
16:25:41 <mroman> and the address always is in a register
16:26:05 <mroman> oh wait
16:26:09 <mroman> no there are also relative jumps
16:26:19 <mroman> which are 12bit one's complement
16:26:32 <mroman> so you can jump forward/back 2048
16:26:45 <mroman> times 4 even
16:26:51 <mroman> because an instruction is 4 bytes
16:26:53 <mroman> and aligned
16:26:58 <ais523> alercah: what's your opinion on skip/jump instruction sets?
16:27:04 <mroman> so you can multiply the relative address by 4
16:27:07 <ais523> where all conditionals skip one instruction if they succeed, and all jumps are unconditional?
16:27:46 <alercah> ais523: I've never used one
16:27:59 <mroman> so you can jump forwards/backwards 2047 instructions
16:28:06 <alercah> ais523: sounds nice though?
16:28:10 <ais523> I've used at least one, possibly more
16:28:17 <mroman> redcode has skips :D
16:28:20 <ais523> it seems like it'd be good for branch target prediction
16:28:40 <mroman> why?
16:28:42 <ais523> also the one I'm thinking of was on a processor with pipeline length 2, so it could implement a skip simply by flushing the pipeline
16:28:49 <ais523> mroman: because all jumps are unconditional
16:28:57 <mroman> true
16:29:03 <mroman> but you still don't know whether the jumps are taken or not
16:29:20 <mroman> so you still don't know where to prefetch stuff from
16:29:41 <ais523> mroman: it solves one of the problems with branch prediction
16:29:45 <ais523> but not the main one
16:29:49 <mroman> although this makes me wonder whether you could have two pipelines
16:29:55 <mroman> and one always fetches the thing from the jump
16:29:59 <b_jonas> ais523: as for branch prediction, you know what I'd like?
16:30:04 <mroman> and then you just switch pipeline if the jump is taken
16:30:28 <ais523> mroman: with long pipelines that doesn't work if there are multiple jumps in succession
16:30:30 <mroman> let's call it "speculative decoding"
16:30:36 <ais523> which is common with if/else if chains
16:31:56 <ais523> speculative execution is a real field of study, though, so there's probably something similar that works
16:32:04 <b_jonas> a kind of marking for a conditional jump where the programmer claims the result for the jump will be available early. when the decoder encounters such a jump, it doesn't try to predict whether the jump condition is true or false, instead it just stalls the decoder and hopes the execution unit will be able to supply the input for that condition early enough that it knows for sure whether the branch is taken, and when it knows, that's when it will continue
16:32:50 <b_jonas> and since you (the programmer) make that condition available early and not modify it in later statements, there's still statements to execute in the execution pipline when the decoder can continue working
16:33:18 <b_jonas> of course this is a bit harder to do in an architecture like x86 that has too few instructions that don't modify the flags
16:33:37 <ais523> I rather like the "delay slots" technique
16:33:39 <b_jonas> (you could do the same for an indirect jump, but that's a less common case)
16:33:47 <ais523> where all jump instructions have no effect for another X instructions, and then act immediately
16:34:19 <ais523> it needs a fairly smart compiler but it gets around all the branch instruction issues, and unlike VLIW and friends, the source code is still compact
16:34:43 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but "it needs a fairly smart compiler but" never works in practice
16:34:56 <b_jonas> people tried that ten times
16:34:59 <b_jonas> it just never works
16:35:04 <ais523> b_jonas: gcc already has code for implementing this, I think
16:35:08 <ais523> such CPUs are used in practice
16:35:26 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, it has now for mips twenty years later.
16:35:34 <b_jonas> doesn't bode well if you design a new cpu with it
16:35:47 <b_jonas> and I don't think the delay slot design even makes much sense with today's cpus
16:35:49 <ais523> you could just write a gcc and llvm backend at the same time
16:35:54 <b_jonas> that made sense for a fixed instruction time schedule
16:36:18 <ais523> right, it doesn't work so well with the modern parallel pipeline
16:36:26 <ais523> although it would nonetheless help to reduce branch prediction penalties
16:36:33 <ais523> even if not zero them
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18:03:46 <mroman> I'm designing yet another VM.
18:03:53 <mroman> mostly...
18:04:02 <mroman> it's more of an ABI layer for processes
18:04:06 <mroman> or OSes
18:04:10 <mroman> kinda
18:04:27 <mroman> the point is a VM with complete process isolation
18:04:46 <mroman> so that you can safely run programs in it
18:05:18 <ais523> mroman: "container"?
18:05:29 <mroman> it's basically a container
18:05:29 <mroman> yes
18:05:41 <ais523> are you planning to use Linux's existing functionality for that, or to write your own?
18:06:19 <mroman> I'm going to write it OS dependent as a reference implementation.
18:06:23 <mroman> *OS independent
18:07:26 <mroman> it's like an OS on top of an OS.
18:08:11 <mroman> and "selinux"
18:09:32 <mroman> part of the idea is that you can load dynamic libraries with restricted permissions
18:09:48 <mroman> meaning that if you use a math library
18:09:53 <mroman> and invoke sqrt(x)
18:10:03 <mroman> that sqrt(x) is not running in the context of the current user
18:10:06 <mroman> as current OS do
18:10:33 <mroman> if there were to be a security vulnerability in sqrt(x)
18:10:42 <mroman> you'd be very restricted with what you can do with it
18:11:05 <mroman> because it would run in a "computation only" context meaning you have absolutely zero I/O available
18:12:04 <mroman> likewise processes will be started in a restricted environment as well
18:12:08 <mroman> for example if you have a text editor
18:12:26 <mroman> which has a root directory of course (containing the binary of itself and stuff)
18:12:41 <mroman> it will only have permissions to the file opened and that root directory
18:12:57 <mroman> so if there were an error in the parsing code of that text editor
18:13:05 <ais523> mroman: so what happens if someone does sqrt(-1) and raises a signal?
18:13:07 <ais523> that's a form of I/O
18:13:09 <mroman> the damage would be _very_ restricted.
18:13:15 <ais523> or does error handling have its own rules?
18:13:44 <shachaf> Is there an esolang where the primary form of output is through timing?
18:13:57 <mroman> and by signal you mean like linux signals?
18:14:15 <mroman> no.
18:14:19 <alercah> mroman: have you seen Fuschia?
18:14:23 <mroman> computation only can't even call os functions
18:15:10 <mroman> of course, this has implications on programmers
18:15:19 <mroman> because you wouldn't design software like
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18:15:31 <alercah> mroman: what about a hardware exception?
18:15:33 <mroman> sub parse(string path) end sub
18:15:47 <alercah> like a divide-by-0
18:15:48 <mroman> but sub parse(stream<char> path) end sub
18:15:53 <mroman> and have the I/O in a different component
18:15:59 <mroman> you'd seperate I/O from non-I/O
18:16:31 <mroman> alercah: terminates the process.
18:16:50 <alercah> mroman: that seems like a loophole
18:16:55 <mroman> why?
18:17:06 <alercah> because it's an externally-visible side effect
18:17:12 <mroman> ah
18:17:20 <alercah> and a malicioius library could crash the process at an inopportune moment
18:17:25 <mroman> you mean a div-by-zero in another component?
18:17:28 <alercah> yeah
18:17:32 <alercah> like I write the sqrt component
18:17:35 <alercah> you call sqrt
18:17:40 <ais523> but the less-malicious alternative would involve checked exceptions
18:17:43 <alercah> I decide that this time, I'm actually going to divide by 0 and crash you instead
18:17:47 <ais523> and that requires changes to the programming languages
18:17:59 <ais523> you couldn't just do it on binaries, it'd be part of the ABI
18:18:34 <ais523> (although come to think of it, ABI violations are another possibility; say the calling convention says that you're supposed to restore r10 to its original value before returning from a function, what happens if the called code doesn't?)
18:18:37 <mroman> haven't thought too much about that
18:18:45 <mroman> security wise a div-by-zero isn't too much to worry about
18:18:56 <mroman> so I haven't thought about that aspect yet
18:19:04 <alercah> ais523: yeah, or any other sort of illegal instruction
18:19:06 <mroman> worst case the process dies
18:19:09 <alercah> mroman: I think you would like fuschia
18:19:35 <mroman> what's that?
18:19:40 <mroman> "Did you mean: fuchsia"
18:19:41 <mroman> "nope. probably not"
18:20:13 <mroman> do you have a link?
18:20:15 <mroman> seems hard to google
18:20:18 <alercah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia
18:20:21 <mroman> because google likes fuchsia more
18:20:56 <ais523> didn't xkcd find that "fuchsia" is the most frequently misspelled colour name?
18:21:11 <alercah> yes because the spelling is dumb
18:21:31 <mroman> it's not
18:21:36 <mroman> it's pronounced fuchsia
18:21:37 <mroman> so
18:21:43 <mroman> how can you misspell that?
18:21:50 <shachaf> imo "colour" is the most frequently misspelled color name
18:21:56 <mroman> it's written as it's spelled
18:22:21 <ais523> the UK pronunciation is more like "fyew-sha"
18:22:29 <alercah> ^ that's how I pronounce it as well
18:22:35 <alercah> the ch before s makes me want to do a german/irish ch
18:22:54 <ais523> alercah: was that a reply to my comment? if so, how did you type it that fast?
18:22:58 <shachaf> I believe that's the US pronunciation too.
18:23:17 <alercah> ais523: I had 6 seconds!
18:23:31 <mroman> German is best language ever anyway
18:23:33 <mroman> Hat man mir gesagt.
18:23:34 <alercah> and I usually type between 80-100 WPM
18:23:36 <pikhq> How you do pronounce "fuchsia" so it makes *sense*?
18:23:45 <ais523> 8 seconds at my end
18:23:51 <pikhq> "Fuck Sia"?
18:23:54 <alercah> pikhq: I dunno. I can't even pronounce it in Irish because the vowels are wrong
18:23:57 <ais523> this is pretty worrying, I might have passed out momentarily or something
18:24:05 <alercah> ais523: when did you sleep?
18:24:11 <ais523> this morning
18:24:24 <alercah> so not sleep deprivation probably
18:24:55 <ais523> I was sent to hospital a few months ago because I fainted for no apparent reason
18:25:05 <ais523> but they couldn't figure out the cause, and it hasn't happened again
18:25:11 <alercah> ohh
18:25:14 <alercah> ouch :(
18:25:28 <ais523> didn't happen this time, though; there are a few tests you can perform to figure out if you just fainted
18:25:31 <ais523> so maybe it's unrelated
18:25:49 <mroman> pikhq: fʊχsɪa
18:25:50 <mroman> probably
18:25:53 <mroman> not an IPA expert
18:28:02 <pikhq> Ah, so "fuck sia" indeed. :P
18:29:02 <ais523> (for anyone wondering: excessive sweat, especially from the forehead; skin and especially lips are white; low blood pressure, although that's hard to self-assess)
18:29:06 <\oren\> futSsya
18:45:42 <mroman> welcome to the club
18:45:51 <mroman> of undiagnosably ill people
18:47:48 <mroman> 80WPM?
18:47:54 <mroman> That's kinda low.
18:47:58 <mroman> 100WPM is ok
18:49:09 <alercah> mroman: my limiting factor is usually deciding what to write, not the actual typing
18:49:40 <alercah> Also I use a keyboard that I value for its comfort, although it's not the fastest tool
18:49:58 <mroman> and by ok I mean good
18:50:03 <mroman> on a bad day I type 100WPM
18:50:07 <mroman> on a good day about 120
18:50:13 <alercah> on a very good day I'll hit 120
18:50:27 <alercah> I don't IRC as much as I used to and that's how I learned to type quickly
18:50:32 <alercah> programming has much lower WPM demands
18:51:12 <mroman> very few people can sustain 120WPM for more than 2 minutes
18:51:49 <alercah> needs a really good ergonomic setup
18:51:52 <alercah> and shorter nails
18:52:10 <mroman> alercah: I've been sick since uhm.
18:52:16 <mroman> 2 years
18:52:17 <mroman> or something
18:52:22 <alercah> oof :(
18:52:36 <mroman> nobody knows why
18:52:53 <ais523> mroman: I've been in the club of undiagnosably ill people for ages
18:53:15 <mroman> only measurable thing is elevated transaminasis.
18:53:26 <ais523> I have some kind of mucus-related or salivary problem that I've seen several doctors about; none could figure it out, but through numerous experiments I discovered that it could be managed simply by drinking water frequently
18:53:30 <mroman> but not elevated enough to indicate anything in particular.
18:53:38 <mroman> salivary problem?
18:53:39 <mroman> not enough?
18:54:02 <mroman> as in xerostomia?
18:54:21 <ais523> mroman: it causes excess mucus production whenever I rehydrate
18:54:41 <ais523> which has knock-on effects of its own
18:54:57 <ais523> but the easy way to prevent it causing trouble is just never dehydrating so that I never have to rehydrate
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18:55:53 <alercah> weord
18:55:58 <alercah> *weird
18:56:25 <int-e> . o O ( "weord" is a weird word. )
18:56:29 <mroman> my body temperature is too high
18:56:32 <mroman> and tired all the time
18:56:43 <mroman> sometimes deliriously tired at 4pm
18:57:14 <mroman> it's gotten weirder for the last two weeks
18:57:21 <mroman> but I can't go to the doctor anymore
18:58:18 <ais523> I'd better go home, anyway
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18:58:34 <ais523> I'll be online at some point later but possibly not today, maybe not even for a few days
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18:59:00 <alercah> ais523: will you be reachable by email>
18:59:04 <alercah> ah damn
19:01:37 <\oren\> I wounder what the actual effect would be of having a container ship sail on a river of pure untreated sewage and chemical waste
19:02:32 <\oren\> in cities:skylines, the main effect is that business on the shores of Shit Creek is booming
19:03:49 <int-e> the engines could be stirring up trouble, quite literally.
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19:11:21 <\oren\> "Cause of accident: hull dissolved in sewage"
19:18:14 <zzo38> Hello
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19:45:56 <mroman> olleho
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20:00:38 <zzo38> You can make the calculation of leap year needing only one division operation, such as the MMIX code: DIV $0,$0,100; GET $1,rR; CSZ $1,$1,$0; AND $1,$1,3; now if $1=0 then it is a leap year, otherwise it is not a leap year. (These instructions are 63 oops in MMIX.)
20:03:01 <mroman> CSZ?
20:03:18 <mroman> $1?
20:04:20 <zzo38> The $0 and $1 are registers, while CSZ X,Y,Z means to set X to Z if Y is zero.
20:04:45 <mroman> and GET?
20:04:50 <mroman> rR?
20:05:22 <zzo38> Reads the special register rR into $1, where rR is the remainder register.
20:05:55 <mroman> ah I see.
20:06:43 <mroman> doesn't x86 div put the remainder somewhere?
20:06:45 <mroman> or was that IDIV
20:06:50 <mroman> or was IDIV for signed numbers
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20:07:27 <zzo38> I don't know what x86 does
20:07:51 -!- erkin has joined.
20:09:09 <zzo38> If you know, you can try to figure out the way for x86 (or even for 8088)
20:10:51 <fizzie> Both DIV and IDIV do the same -- they divide a double-wide number (in ax, dx:ax, edx:eax or rdx:rax) by a regular-sized number (the operand), and put the regular-sized quotient in al/ax/eax/rax and the remainder in ah/dx/edx/rdx.
20:19:10 <\oren\> what is a good refernece for learning to use sqlite better?
20:20:04 <zzo38> Probably the SQLite documentation.
20:23:46 <zemhill> david_werecat.antigen: points 13.21, score 35.52, rank 5/47 (+1)
20:23:50 <zseri> why are there DIV and IDIV? what's the difference between them?
20:24:13 <int-e> idiv treats numbers as signed
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20:34:07 <mroman> zseri: add and sub works for both unsigned and signed numbers (two's complement)
20:34:10 <mroman> but mul div doesn't.
20:34:12 <mroman> so there's imul and idiv.
20:38:50 <int-e> (there's also an imul r, r/m variant that works with two values of the same size, updating the first with the result; there is no mul variant for that because it would produce the same results)
20:40:55 <int-e> oh and I forgot the slightly crazy imul r, r/m, imm variant... which assigns to the first operant the second operant multiplied with the immediate.
20:41:32 <int-e> does x86_64 still have all those?
20:42:19 <int-e> apparently so
20:43:56 <int-e> With the immediate restricted to 32 bits when using 64 bit operands. Which is fine; afaiui it's really designed for indexing into arrays with large element sizes.
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21:05:53 <\oren\> I am considering the idea of a massivley multiplayer game where game-logic is entirely implemented as constraints and stored procedures
21:06:07 <alercah> I don't think massively multiplayer and that design go together
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21:40:29 <mroman> so...
21:40:38 <mroman> you want a mmo in sql
21:41:05 <Taneb> Massively multiplayer online database
21:41:33 <mroman> and
21:41:35 <mroman> using sqlite
21:41:37 <zzo38> SQLite has no stored procedures, although you can use triggers inatead.
21:41:39 <mroman> there's one file on a smb share
21:41:43 <mroman> and players connect to the share
21:42:26 <zzo38> Triggers in SQLite can't have statements that have WITH at start, although WITH is allowed in subqueries and so on.
21:43:02 <mroman> \oren\: If you do that
21:43:06 <mroman> I'll create distributed brainfuck
21:43:46 <mroman> fuck
21:43:48 <mroman> I'll create it even if you don't.
21:43:52 <mroman> I don't have anything to do anyway
21:45:44 <mroman> but let me do my VM stuff first.
21:46:36 <mroman> I got six months left
21:46:41 <mroman> so I gotta do something useful in that time
21:46:47 <mroman> and distributed brainfuck isn't that useful.
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22:52:50 <zzo38> Did anyone make a hardware implementation of MIX (including punch cards and magnetic tapes and everything else like that too)?
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23:03:12 <zseri> bye
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23:53:31 <zzo38> I made this MIX program to tell you if a year is a leap year and also what day of the week is January 1: http://sprunge.us/TdAc
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23:56:14 <zzo38> It expects entering a Gregorian AD year number on the typewriter and then will write the result also on the typewriter.
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23:57:09 <zzo38> Do you like this?
2017-09-02
00:04:45 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving).
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00:23:32 <zzo38> Is this method "STA *+1(0:2)" and stuff like that common in MIX programs?
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01:08:44 <Sgeo__> "Do I dare put a character named "Mallock" in a story about memory"
01:09:08 <zzo38> I don't care
01:12:38 <\oren\> I had really strong soju at work today!
01:13:02 <\oren\> time to play cities: skylines!
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03:07:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Behrooz Binary * New user account
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04:00:04 <\oren\> 100000 residents!
04:00:07 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/wbaOWxK
04:01:26 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/e6QHSLr
04:16:47 <zzo38> I found another bug in MIXPC that LDiN and LDXN are not work. I found the mistake so that I can fix it.
04:23:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52980&oldid=52977 * Zzo38 * (+357) +[[MIX (Knuth)]]
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05:22:10 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is chanterelles
05:22:12 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is chanterelles
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05:39:35 <\oren\> What should I call the next district after "Extra Orenburg"?
05:39:53 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/yM8y8dB
05:43:44 <oerjan> \oren\: Orenchugladitsnotorenburg
05:46:17 <oerjan> also, ankh-morpork for wherever that sewage continues to
06:16:50 <Hoolootwo> orenville
06:21:09 <oerjan> orengrad
06:22:42 <oerjan> santoreno
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08:56:32 <mroman> morning
08:56:56 <Taneb> Hi mroman
08:57:07 <Taneb> How's mrome?
08:58:04 <mroman> mrome what?
08:59:38 <Taneb> an
08:59:40 <Hoolootwo> morn
09:09:27 <mroman> blubb
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09:40:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Skastic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52981&oldid=52932 * Mypalmike * (+23)
09:42:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Skastic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52982&oldid=52981 * Mypalmike * (+35)
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11:44:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52983 * Zseri * (+4336) Created page with "Pronounced ''toons-whack'', '''TEWNLSWAC''' is an idea for a programming language by [[User:Zseri]]. It's initially derived from [[TEWELSWAC]], but uses a very different synta..."
11:45:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52984&oldid=52983 * Zseri * (-1) /* External Resources */
11:49:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52985&oldid=52984 * Zseri * (+112) add labels
11:55:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52986&oldid=52954 * Zseri * (+16) +TEWNLSWAC
11:56:11 <zseri> I finally added my own esolang to the wiki
11:57:03 <zseri> The esolang page is still not complete, but only the section about object orientation is missing.
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12:13:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52987&oldid=52985 * Zseri * (+1285) +Object Orientied Programming
12:13:47 <zseri> ok ,done
12:40:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52988&oldid=52987 * Zseri * (-18) ''a'' command: parentheses no longer needed (keep up to date with interpreter)
12:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zseri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52989&oldid=52304 * Zseri * (+32) +Own languages
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12:47:42 <mroman> Taneb: I'm holding lectures last week and next week.
12:47:53 <mroman> I'm gonna do my lectures
12:47:59 <mroman> and then I'm gonna go.
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12:52:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52990&oldid=52988 * Zseri * (+645) +VM memory model
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13:22:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52991&oldid=52990 * Zseri * (-79) /* 99 bottles of beer */
13:23:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52992&oldid=52991 * Zseri * (+17) /* 99 bottles of beer */ fix indent
13:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52993&oldid=52992 * Zseri * (+0) /* External Resources */ update link
13:35:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWELSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52994&oldid=52231 * Zseri * (+15) /* External Resources */ update link
13:36:51 <fizzie> Aw. With mismatching monitor sizes, X doesn't let me move the cursor to the other screen if it would go to the invisible area. (I was hoping that part of the border would just clamp to the bottom of the other screen.)
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13:53:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52995&oldid=52993 * Zseri * (+178) +Unary Operators
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15:36:54 <zzo38> Is there some configuration of that?
15:37:20 <* Taneb> is in Oxford now
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15:52:19 <mroman> re
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15:56:47 <APic> wb
16:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stefan-hering * New user account
16:11:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52996&oldid=52979 * Stefan-hering * (+253)
16:19:25 <mroman> here comes a new bf derivative :D
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16:19:48 <mroman> to be fair.. Härdfish is also kinda a bf derivative
16:34:40 <zseri> what's new in that derivative
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16:37:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52997&oldid=52995 * Zseri * (+21) inspired
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16:44:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: START isn't even an operation or pseudo-op, and END needs an argument. what's that about?
16:45:32 <zzo38> wob_jonas: It isn't MIXAL it is a bit different.
16:45:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and what's the point of those extra IN statements?
16:46:31 <zzo38> Which ones you mean?
16:46:52 <wob_jonas> under the comment "It is a leap year"
16:47:24 <zzo38> To read the card " IS NOT A LEAP YEAR" and skip it, so that the next card it reads will be " IS A LEAP YEAR"
16:48:51 <zzo38> Does that make sense now?
16:50:30 <zzo38> (The program does work; I have tested it. I can provide the compiled deck too if you wanted it, whether base 100, base 64, or independent.)
16:52:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ah I see. fancy human-readable output read from the localization data at the end of the program to attract the young who hasn't been pulled into computer programming yet. that's a good idea, I support it
16:52:18 <\oren\> I was like, who is this "king karl" who declared war on me?
16:52:23 <\oren\> and then I was like, OH SHIT
16:54:14 <wob_jonas> \oren\: you got king Carl 14 Gustaf of Sweden to declare a war on you? What did you do?
16:55:28 <zzo38> Is this way of copying rA and rX into index registers common in MIX programming?
16:56:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I dunno
16:57:07 <\oren\> wob_jonas: no, Charlemagne
16:57:20 <\oren\> even worse for me
16:57:47 <wob_jonas> \oren\: whoa. isn't he already dead? did a regent declare war in his name?
16:59:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also, what's with the PUNCH header? doesn't the assembler just stop reading after one more card after END so you just put extra cards readable by the program directly after them without any formatting?
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16:59:31 <wob_jonas> hmm no wait, it can't work that way
16:59:37 <wob_jonas> because there's a loader involved
16:59:47 <\oren\> wob_jonas: I'm in 769 AD
17:00:02 <wob_jonas> \oren\: whoa.... is that timezone shenanigans?
17:00:09 <wob_jonas> that can't raise someone from death
17:00:10 <\oren\> I'm playing as the Ummayad Sultan in CKII
17:00:12 <wob_jonas> real tiem travel?
17:00:14 <zzo38> The MIXPC assembler does not stop reading after END; you can add further pseudo-ops there (specifically, ORG, EQU, PUNCH, and DECK are allowed, as well as comments).
17:00:16 <wob_jonas> ah
17:00:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: how does it know when to stop reading then?
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17:01:17 <mroman> zseri: it's funnier than hardfuck
17:01:18 <zzo38> wob_jonas: By EOF. This assembler is not itself written in MIX, so it can be done (it is also a two pass assembler).
17:01:40 <wob_jonas> shouldn't it stop reading one card after END, and perhaps the operator just removes the rest of cards and puts them after the loader card stack as routine?
17:01:57 <wob_jonas> or you just submit the data as a separate stack
17:02:30 <wob_jonas> although a single stack might simplify things if the punchers are heavily underpaid unqualified workers
17:02:30 <zzo38> wob_jonas: In a hardware implementation you may very well do that if you are using MIXAL written in MIX itself with the source program on cards.
17:02:59 <wob_jonas> it doesn't need to be written in MIX itself. it could be any other computer driving a punch card reader
17:03:01 <zzo38> (Although you probably would combine the decks, as there doesn't seem a real reason to submit it as an extra stack if it is static data that is part of the program.)
17:03:17 <zzo38> Well, yes, that too
17:04:10 <wob_jonas> or you could run the program on an expensive MIX machine with a fast cpu and lots of extra devices, and the assembler on a cheap almost-MIX machine.
17:04:36 <wob_jonas> One that's slow and only has 4000 RAM and a punch card reader and a puncher and nothing else.
17:05:25 <mroman> zzo38: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrksBdWcZgQ
17:05:33 <mroman> you seem like a guy who might be intersted in that talk
17:06:18 <zzo38> Yes, you can do that, although the MIXPC assembler is not designed to read the program from cards; it even uses characters that are not in the MIX character set (such as quotation marks), and the DECK pseudo-op reads an external file (it is meant for use with externally prepared data, that may have output using a MIX program, and needs a filename)
17:06:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ok
17:07:15 <wob_jonas> also, the assembly program could be entered through a terminal directly without punching
17:08:43 <zzo38> The GNU MIX assembler also uses quotation marks though
17:09:29 <wob_jonas> maybe the bunny ears are on the same code as some other character, like the at sign
17:10:15 <zzo38> If you actually do want MIXAL, you could provide an implementation in MIX that is already compiled and you will be able to run it.
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17:24:39 <zzo38> (You could also use another standalone implementation that produces an executable deck; the GNU MIX assembler does not, although it can use MIXAL input (the quotation marks are optional).)
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17:27:37 <zzo38> Has anyone made a hardware MIX implementation (with punch cards and that stuff) yet?
17:28:50 <wob_jonas> dunno. I haven't seen one in http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/ringhome.html at least.
17:32:29 <mroman> there surely at least exists an FFPGA implementation?
17:32:34 <wob_jonas> `w
17:32:36 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ//ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏ
17:33:17 <wob_jonas> mroman: dunno, I'm a software guy, I don't usually see what that would win over a pure software emu on a conventional computer, in cases like this where you don't lose much performance by such an emulation
17:34:04 <zzo38> Someone have mention to me to try to make it in Verilog myself, but I do not have any computer punch cards.
17:34:57 <wob_jonas> but I do understand there are people who prefer stuff encoded in wires they solder with their own hand
17:35:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: a terminal with tape then? you need only one or the other
17:36:09 <wob_jonas> plus a custom adapter card between the card reader/punch or the terminal and the computer, which is quite complicated
17:36:52 <wob_jonas> the punch card reader or terminal or disk drive has all the mechanical parts, but the controller used to have all the complicated electronics, back before cheap ICs.
17:37:13 <wob_jonas> that's why they used to have two hard disks or two floppy disks on one controller in such a way that it can control only one at a time
17:37:22 <zzo38> Yes you could, although an implementation that supports all of the I/O of MIX would be something to see, by anyone who is interested in working with these old computer, I suppose.
17:37:49 <wob_jonas> the keyboard and mouse, funnily, have most of the electronics in them though. I don't understand why.
17:38:38 <wob_jonas> for the keyboard it sort of makes sense, because you have to reduce the hundred keys to just a few wires somewhere, but why in the mouse?
17:39:54 <zzo38> I don't know?
17:40:58 <wob_jonas> although keyboards back then lasted way more than these cheap junk people buy these days, so it wasn't like you're throwing away an expensive keyboard controller when the keyboard wears off after two years
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17:41:31 <zzo38> Yes, I like the old IBM Model F keyboard, which however they do not seem to make anymore
17:43:19 <wob_jonas> (not that the stereotypical two-finger hunt and peck 20 wpm medical assistant who's paid for one job, to type what the doctor dictates, would deserve a real keyboard, but still, they buy some of that junk at my workplace... oh I SEE! we have to give something to the stupid interns! yes, it all makes sense now.)
17:44:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, I have a real keyboard for home now. and I have a Genius mouse that works really well and lasts quite long.
17:44:50 <wob_jonas> and I have not too expensive but not too bad either keyboard and mouse and monitor at work now, after a few iterations of asking for better equipment
17:45:22 <wob_jonas> the system of giving junk to people at first and giving them real stuff only when they complain is actually a reasonable cost-saving measure
17:45:32 <wob_jonas> because different people care about different things
17:46:36 <wob_jonas> so you give the guy who needs a comfy chair a comfy chair, and give the guy who needs a good keyboard a good keyboard, and the guy who wants sunshades on the window sunshades, it's way cheaper than preemptively putting comfy chairs and good keyboards at every workstation and sunshades on every window
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17:47:08 <wob_jonas> this works even in non-tech stuff like the coffee maker and coffee and milk they buy
17:47:50 <wob_jonas> you wouldn't believe how some people will work with monitors with a bright pixel, or keyboards with one key not working at all, until you see it
17:48:02 <wob_jonas> people are so different you never know what to expect
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17:48:40 <wob_jonas> some of my co-workers actually started to work in an open space, as in rooms aren't completely separated by walls
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17:54:40 <wob_jonas> `? aluminum
17:54:41 <HackEgo> aluminum? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:54:43 <wob_jonas> `? aluminium
17:54:44 <HackEgo> aluminium? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:54:47 <wob_jonas> `? alminum
17:54:48 <HackEgo> alminum? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:54:52 <wob_jonas> `? alumni
17:54:53 <HackEgo> alumni? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:55:09 <APic> `? aluminiumminimumimmun
17:55:11 <HackEgo> aluminiumminimumimmun? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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17:56:01 <wob_jonas> `learn Alumni is a compromise spelling suggested to solve the aluminum vs aluminium debate that never really caught on, except in a few big colleges.
17:56:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'alumni': Alumni is a compromise spelling suggested to solve the aluminum vs aluminium debate that never really caught on, except in a few big colleges.
17:57:31 <APic> Here in the Germanies „Alumni“ means „Absolvents“
17:58:42 <wob_jonas> as in, it absorbs oxygen on the surface and mercury?
17:59:18 <zzo38> A hardware MIX implementation can be made that doesn't necessarily have punch cards and typewriter and so on, but does have the ability to connect to all of that equipment, and then you can also substitute other equipment such as a VDU instead of a typewriter if you want to, with the same interface for connection.
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18:04:43 <wob_jonas> sure, if it's already ASCII over a serial lines with given settings, then video terminal and print terminal are equivalent
18:05:12 <wob_jonas> but the driver hardware is still nontrivial
18:05:34 <wob_jonas> and you need some input/output device, either cards or terminal with tape, to use the computer
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18:07:51 <wob_jonas> and presumably you won't just invent a completely different I/O device once you go through the trouble of making a hardware MIX specifically instead of some other computer
18:08:25 <wob_jonas> I have better modern computers and don't have a use for MIX though
18:08:37 <zzo38> Yes of course you do need some I/O devices, and probably you are correct you won't just invent a new kind
18:08:39 <wob_jonas> so I don't care much even about an emulator
18:11:44 <wob_jonas> `? protoss
18:11:45 <HackEgo> protoss? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:11:46 <wob_jonas> `? zerg
18:11:47 <HackEgo> We'll try to think of an entry here, but we don't want to rush it.
18:11:48 <wob_jonas> `? terran
18:11:49 <HackEgo> terran? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:12:56 <zzo38> I can just use software implementations and so don't need a hardware implementation either, although still it can be interesting to see for similar reasons that EDSAC is rebuilt and the other old-style computers that some people like to make.
18:13:33 <zzo38> If I had punch cards then a hardware implementation would be useful to me of course, since I would use that to write a program to read the cards.
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18:19:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52998&oldid=52997 * Zseri * (+79) global/local vars
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18:50:11 -!- [io] has changed nick to iovoid.
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19:01:13 <wob_jonas> `? /ꙩ\
19:01:14 <HackEgo> ​/ꙩ\? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:01:17 <wob_jonas> `? illuminati
19:01:18 <HackEgo> illuminati? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:01:25 <wob_jonas> `? sauron
19:01:26 <HackEgo> Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor.
19:02:28 <wob_jonas> `? learn Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .
19:02:29 <HackEgo> learn Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:02:38 <wob_jonas> `learn Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .
19:02:41 <HackEgo> Relearned 'sauron': Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .
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19:12:35 <mroman> moo
19:13:49 <int-e> mrooman?
19:27:46 <zzo38> I thought another possible extension into MIX can be a card sorter unit; IOC (16) will control it, where the address field tells it which area to put the most recently read card into. It is an error to use it on a card that has already been sorted. (Maybe there might be a better way though)
19:28:47 * int-e idly wonders whether he has any chance of recognizing Taneb if he should run into him some time next week.
19:29:04 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, y'all're at ICFP?
19:29:41 <int-e> I'll sneak into ICFP a bit but I'm there for FSCD and an associated workshop.
19:29:58 <int-e> (no sneakiness required, this is officially permitted)
19:30:16 <shachaf> Family Support for Children with Disabilities?
19:30:23 <shachaf> I wonder why that's colocated with ICFP
19:30:27 <int-e> :-P
19:30:50 <int-e> http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/conferences/fscd2017/
19:31:19 <wob_jonas> int-e: he's an inventor, so maybe look a professor in his fifties with grey hair, bushy mustache, thick-framed glasses, and so forgetful he wears non-matching socks?
19:31:49 <wob_jonas> unless he's a non-stereotypical inventor
19:32:15 <int-e> it's too bad I forgot the secret #esoteric handshake ;-)
19:32:20 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
19:32:22 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
19:34:49 <int-e> (And if you look at the ICFP full program you'll find FSCD listed as a separate track, which is a bit weird, but probably good for the visibility of FSCD.)
19:35:09 <Taneb> int-e, I think you have more of a chance of recognizing me than I have what you
19:36:38 <zzo38> On that list of home-built computers I found the "Qibec" computer, which seems to be the same as the TOGA computer described in esolang wiki.
19:37:14 <Taneb> int-e, you're looking for a tall, skinny, white student volunteer with fluffy brown hair and thick eyebrows, possibly wearing glasses
19:37:25 <wob_jonas> also, it's a mathematics conference
19:37:31 <wob_jonas> `? tanebventions: maths
19:37:32 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
19:37:44 <wob_jonas> and conferences have conference food, which is usually worse than
19:37:49 <wob_jonas> `? tanebventions: foods
19:37:50 <HackEgo> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
19:38:40 <int-e> conference food varies wildly
19:38:53 <wob_jonas> `? tanebventions: biology
19:38:54 <HackEgo> tanebventions: biology? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:39:01 <wob_jonas> `? tanebventions: chemistry
19:39:03 <HackEgo> tanebventions: chemistry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:39:07 <wob_jonas> `? tanebventions: economycs
19:39:09 <HackEgo> tanebventions: economycs? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:39:10 <wob_jonas> `? tanebventions: economics
19:39:11 <HackEgo> tanebventions: economics? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:39:13 <wob_jonas> `? tanebventions: military
19:39:14 <HackEgo> tanebventions: military? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:39:19 <wob_jonas> oh right, those ones are classified
19:39:28 <wob_jonas> the military inventions that is
19:39:42 <wob_jonas> but only for ten years, after that they'll be hopelessly obsolete
19:39:52 <wob_jonas> unlike the maths inventions, which live forever
19:40:16 <wob_jonas> shouldn't Curry's paradox be in the foods category?
19:40:18 <int-e> Like naive set theory.
19:41:57 <wob_jonas> "a tall, skinny, white student volunteer with fluffy brown hair and thick eyebrows, possibly wearing glasses" oh great. now you've described like half of the population of the conference
19:41:57 <int-e> Also conjectures are often rather shortlived (though most of those never become famous).
19:42:28 * int-e would be banking on the IRC name being accurate.
19:42:37 <int-e> :-P
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19:45:42 <wob_jonas> That's because there's a big market for conjectures, so most have to be made by unqualified people. Only very few mathematicians have mastered the art of making really good conjectures, ones that spawn an entire branch of research after their death. These include Fermat, Hilbert, Erdős, and a few more.
19:46:21 <int-e> so we agree that not all math inventions live forever?
19:46:34 <wob_jonas> Now Gil Kalai too I think.
19:46:42 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah
19:47:01 <wob_jonas> but they have way more chance of living forever than military inventions
19:47:04 <mroman> I came up with the P=1 conjecture
19:47:07 <mroman> nobody disproved it yet.
19:47:23 <Taneb> int-e, my IRC name is accurate
19:47:25 <wob_jonas> the only way those can live forever is if they manage to destroy civilization.
19:47:34 <wob_jonas> Taneb: huh?
19:47:51 <wob_jonas> Taneb: do you mean it's the same name as shown on your conference badge name tag?
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19:51:35 <Taneb> wob_jonas, name as distinct from nick
19:51:58 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, I see it, I was just not sure what "accurate" meant
19:52:12 <wob_jonas> I thought it would describe some other easily observable attribute
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19:53:24 <Taneb> wob_jonas, I presume int-e could shout my name out and I'd be like "shit that's me"
19:53:38 <shachaf> But you have so many names.
19:54:39 <Taneb> Yes, any of them will do
19:55:19 <shachaf> van doom
19:56:13 <wob_jonas> but you can recognize int-e too, from how he isn't swedish
19:56:28 <shachaf> `? int-e
19:56:30 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
19:56:51 <shachaf> are you sure int-e isn't into swedes
19:59:42 <mroman> jojo
19:59:56 <mroman> labered ir nur
20:00:47 <shachaf> `? rutabaga
20:00:48 <HackEgo> rutabaga? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:01:17 <fizzie> Looks like there's a mini-TAS-block in the Games Done Quick special, starting in a bit.
20:02:21 <int-e> . o O ( Oh, this will be my horrible pun for the day: We have reduced the problem to a simple matter of badge processing. )
20:02:49 <mroman> schrecklich indeed.
20:03:13 -!- Remavas has joined.
20:04:14 <wob_jonas> `? satsuma
20:04:15 <HackEgo> satsuma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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20:14:28 <Remavas> `? turing machine
20:14:29 <HackEgo> turing machine? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:14:33 <Remavas> `? turing
20:14:34 <HackEgo> Turing is what you are doing when you Tur.
20:14:39 <Remavas> :D
20:14:47 <Remavas> `? tur
20:14:48 <HackEgo> To tur is not to flas.
20:14:54 <Remavas> `? flas
20:14:55 <HackEgo> flas? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:14:59 <Remavas> :/
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20:18:18 <wob_jonas> `? flass
20:18:19 <HackEgo> flass? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:20:19 <mroman> hm.
20:20:34 <mroman> how do you learn stuff with spaces?
20:20:54 <wob_jonas> slashlearn
20:21:04 <wob_jonas> `? learn
20:21:05 <HackEgo> ​`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
20:21:08 <wob_jonas> `? le/rn
20:21:09 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
20:21:12 <wob_jonas> `? le//rn
20:21:13 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
20:21:25 <wob_jonas> `? slashlearn
20:21:25 <mroman> `ls /bin/learn
20:21:26 <HackEgo> slashlearn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:21:26 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /bin/learn: No such file or directory
20:21:32 <mroman> `ls ./bin
20:21:33 <HackEgo> ​` \ `` \ `^ \ `̀ \ ^.^ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ ( \ @ \ * \ # \ ؟ \ ⁗ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ allquotes \ analogy \
20:21:38 <mroman> `ls ./bin/learn
20:21:40 <HackEgo> ​./bin/learn
20:21:46 <mroman> `cat ./bin/learn
20:21:47 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
20:21:59 <mroman> `ls ./bin/le*
20:22:00 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ./bin/le*: No such file or directory
20:22:05 <mroman> ``ls ./bin/le*
20:22:06 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
20:22:11 <mroman> `run ls ./bin/le*
20:22:12 <HackEgo> ​./bin/leann \ ./bin/learn \ ./bin/learn_append \ ./bin/learn_append2 \ ./bin/len \ ./bin/len.pl
20:22:22 <mroman> `run ls ./bin/slash*
20:22:23 <HackEgo> ​./bin/slashes \ ./bin/slashlearn
20:22:28 <mroman> `cat ./bin/slashlearn
20:22:29 <HackEgo> sep="//" \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || { echo 'Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>' >&2 ; exit 1; } \ key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)" \ value="${1#*$sep}" \ [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo -n "$verb '$key': $(echo "$value" | sed 's.^[ ].&.')"
20:22:29 <wob_jonas> mroman: ls le
20:22:36 <wob_jonas> or ls bin/le
20:22:48 <mroman> `slashlearn turing machine//is a machine that turs.
20:22:48 <wob_jonas> `ls bin/le
20:22:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'turing machine': is a machine that turs.
20:22:52 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/le: No such file or directory
20:23:01 <wob_jonas> `ls le
20:23:01 <HackEgo> rm \ rn \ rn_append
20:23:05 <mroman> `? turing complete
20:23:07 <HackEgo> You complete a Turing when you Tur by a specified amount.
20:23:30 <mroman> `? turing test
20:23:32 <HackEgo> turing test? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:23:55 <mroman> `turing machine
20:23:56 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: turing: not found
20:24:00 <mroman> `? turing machine
20:24:01 <HackEgo> is a machine that turs.
20:24:03 <int-e> `slwd turingmachine//s=^=A Turing machine =
20:24:04 <HackEgo> Roswbud!
20:24:06 <mroman> hmpf
20:24:13 <mroman> `slashlearn turing machine//A turing machine is a machine that turs.
20:24:16 <HackEgo> Relearned 'turing machine': A turing machine is a machine that turs.
20:24:34 <int-e> oh I missed the space
20:24:45 <mroman> `slashlearn turing test//A turing test tests by what amount you can tur.
20:24:45 <Remavas> hehe'
20:24:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'turing test': A turing test tests by what amount you can tur.
20:24:49 <shachaf> Not a machine that tures?
20:24:49 <int-e> @slap hackego
20:24:50 * lambdabot will count to five...
20:24:53 <mroman> ok
20:24:55 <mroman> and then?
20:25:05 <Remavas> `? enigma
20:25:05 <mroman> @slap hackego
20:25:05 * lambdabot pushes hackego from his chair
20:25:06 <HackEgo> enigma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:25:15 <mroman> @slap slap
20:25:15 * lambdabot pulls slap through the Evil Mangler
20:25:35 <int-e> . o O ( There's no turing back now. The pun will be with us forever. )
20:25:43 <Remavas> `slahlearn enigma://Eine machine that encrypten all
20:25:44 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slahlearn: not found
20:25:50 <Remavas> damn'
20:25:56 <Remavas> `slashlearn enigma://Eine machine that encrypten all
20:25:56 <mroman> Maschine
20:25:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'enigma:': Eine machine that encrypten all
20:26:01 <Remavas> I know
20:26:03 <Remavas> I know german
20:26:05 <mroman> or Maschiene
20:26:08 <mroman> if you want to be extra correct.
20:26:09 <Remavas> This is fake german :D
20:26:15 <wob_jonas> that's against the rules
20:26:21 <zseri> hm
20:26:24 <wob_jonas> `? rules of wosdom
20:26:25 <HackEgo> rules of wosdom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:26:27 <int-e> mroman: how is that extra correct?
20:26:28 <wob_jonas> `? rules of wisdom
20:26:28 <Remavas> what? fake german?
20:26:29 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
20:26:37 <zseri> `? wisdom
20:26:39 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
20:27:30 <zseri> `? enigma
20:27:31 <HackEgo> enigma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:27:32 <Remavas> `slashlearn enigma://
20:27:34 <HackEgo> Relearned 'enigma:':
20:27:43 <zseri> `? enigma:
20:27:44 <HackEgo> No output.
20:27:52 <Remavas> well, it's cleared now :D
20:28:01 <zseri> hm
20:28:03 <int-e> . o O ( Almost forgotten these days, the Enigma pioneered the "rotor" principle that is the foundation of the famous rot13 cipher. )
20:28:49 <zseri> why is there a 'learn' and a 'slashlearn' command?
20:29:00 <int-e> `? slashlearn
20:29:01 <HackEgo> slashlearn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:29:08 <int-e> `? le/rn
20:29:09 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
20:29:34 <int-e> `` ls -la bin/le/rn
20:29:36 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/le/rn: No such file or directory
20:29:42 <int-e> `` ls -la le/rn
20:29:43 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 17 Oct 28 2016 le/rn -> ../bin/slashlearn
20:29:47 <zseri> `? turing machine
20:29:48 <HackEgo> A turing machine is a machine that turs.
20:29:55 <wob_jonas> zseri: to create more wisdom
20:30:33 <wob_jonas> and in the spirit of eso, le/rn is magically two commands
20:31:10 <zseri> which ones?
20:32:05 <int-e> not anymore, le//rn is no longer any different from le/rn
20:32:07 <zseri> hm, I now lookup bitbucket / GregorR / hackbot
20:32:41 <int-e> the whole slashslash family of commands got slashed
20:33:14 <int-e> hmm, will I need sun screen for oxford :P
20:33:23 <wob_jonas> WHAT?\
20:33:23 <int-e> (the weather forecast says no)
20:33:38 <wob_jonas> how will I slashlearn then?
20:34:09 <int-e> hmm, that was inaccurate
20:34:15 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
20:34:15 <lambdabot> KOAK 021853Z 25004KT 6SM HZ CLR 29/11 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP096 T02940111
20:34:26 <shachaf> It wasas 39° here yesterday.
20:34:29 <shachaf> Absurd.
20:34:39 <int-e> the slashslash family slashed the slash family and the "slash" of its own name that became superfluous.
20:34:48 <int-e> @metar lowi
20:34:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 021920Z VRB01KT 9999 -RA FEW007 SCT015 BKN045 10/09 Q1018 NOSIG
20:35:00 <int-e> been raining for days
20:35:13 <zseri> 2 commands, hm, make key lowercase, save the entry and output it again
20:35:59 <zseri> what was the (gone) different?
20:36:16 <zseri> s/different/difference/
20:36:19 <int-e> the treatment of slashes
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20:37:19 <shachaf> `? shaventions
20:37:20 <HackEgo> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet.
20:37:35 <shachaf> Didn't shaventions include slashlearn?
20:37:45 <shachaf> `doat bin/slashlearn
20:37:54 <HackEgo> 5010:2014-10-02 <shachäf> ` echo $\'#!/bin/bash\\ntopic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1)\\n[ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1\\nvalue=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-)\\necho "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned \xc2\xab$topic\xc2\xbb"\' > bin/slashlearn \ 5011:2014-10-02 <shachäf> ` chmod +x bin/slashlearn \ 5152:2014-11-19 <shachäf> ` sed
20:37:55 <int-e> le/rn foo/bar//baz used to create an entry "foo" with contents "bar//baz", because it cut things at the first slash. le//rn did what le/rn does now: create and entry "foo/bar" with contents "baz"
20:38:57 <wob_jonas> `? curse
20:38:58 <HackEgo> A curse is a curse, off course, of course.
20:38:59 <wob_jonas> `? cur
20:39:00 <HackEgo> cur? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:39:03 <wob_jonas> `? cursed
20:39:04 <HackEgo> cursed? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:39:08 <wob_jonas> `? emu
20:39:09 <HackEgo> emu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:42:07 <zseri> ok
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20:45:05 <zseri> I have no idea how to make the TEWNLSWAC language + interpreter more golfy, I think I've added enough shortcuts.
20:45:53 <wob_jonas> enough?
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20:47:41 <zseri> yes, enough
20:48:55 <zseri> e.g. In TEWNLSWAC, you could simplify ''a = a.b()'' to ''a .= b''
20:50:05 <zseri> or ''a = c:i a'' to ''c:i a''
20:50:44 <wob_jonas> shouldn't that be a;_b. or something cryptic like that?
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20:52:10 <zseri> I wanted to use the same syntax or a similar syntax for similar things.
20:53:15 <zseri> The most shortcuts are just combined assign expressions, but combined assign expressions, that someone would assume, like ''a += b'' aren't supported.
20:54:32 <zseri> or you can combine a bunch of ''a .= b; a .= c;'' ... into ''a .= {b c}''
20:56:24 <wob_jonas> anyway, it's not the syntactic sugar that matters, but the (insert buzzword for new paradigm that's supposed to revolutionarize programming forever this month)
20:59:28 <wob_jonas> just look at Arthur Whitney. where did all that dense syntactic sugar, lack of automatic promotion, and inhomogeneous lists take him? is he a respected esolang designer now?
21:00:28 <wob_jonas> well no he isn't. everyone just cares about brainfuck, which has about the least amount of syntactic sugar or paradigm you could imagine!
21:00:51 <wob_jonas> what a stupid language, and look at how successful!
21:02:21 <zseri> yes
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21:28:41 <wob_jonas> `wisdom
21:28:42 <HackEgo> endomorphism//Endomorphisms are just final morphisms.
21:28:42 <wob_jonas> `quote
21:28:43 <HackEgo> 343) <elliott> It's a Toy Story character, you uncultured fuck.
21:28:51 <wob_jonas> `wisdom
21:28:53 <HackEgo> zzo38//zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
21:29:02 <wob_jonas> `random-card
21:29:04 <HackEgo> Cackling Counterpart \ 1UU \ Instant \ Create a token that's a copy of target creature you control. \ Flashback {5}{U}{U} (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.) \ ISD-R, C14-R
21:29:13 <wob_jonas> that one needs a refresh of the card database by the way
21:29:15 <wob_jonas> `scheme
21:29:16 <HackEgo> Evil Comes to Fruition
21:29:16 <wob_jonas> that too
21:29:25 <wob_jonas> `starwars
21:29:27 <HackEgo> Supreme Leader Snoke
21:29:45 <wob_jonas> `recipe
21:29:46 <HackEgo> ok over low heat until flour and pour \ is thoroughly completely melatais set. Microwave each cake; boil 4 hours, \ until melted too mush of skillet in foil; add remaining 1/4 cup of cheese. \ Stir together flour, baking powder and leaves to a platter. \ Sprinkle with basil. Place fish filling into a large bowl; \ lemon juice only fill stems o
21:30:03 <shachaf> `recipe
21:30:04 <HackEgo> king Chocolate Yeese Cookery, Muffins, Teles April Mix Typed for you've \ or that and the serving. \ \ From: Date: 08-06-92 Formant, 125 mg sodium, 4 5 dozen \ with fresh apricots, 2 cups, 1/4 cups, 2% of cookies, 1 1/2 (3 T) \ Date: \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: BUFFALO MEAN-LAPTI BREAD \ Categ
21:30:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MMP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52999&oldid=50740 * Zseri * (+250) improve formatting
21:30:52 <wob_jonas> MMMMM, that sounds lovely
21:31:03 <wob_jonas> I'd like one
21:34:58 <zseri> hm, I could remove most of the (mostly useless) syntactic sugar and simplify the (buggy) BISON parser.
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21:51:58 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
21:51:58 <lambdabot> KOAK 021953Z 27006KT 6SM HZ CLR 34/07 A2980 RMK AO2 SLP092 T03390067
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2017-09-03
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00:30:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53000&oldid=52973 * LyricLy * (+358)
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02:16:36 <oerjan> ouch a legitimate user isn't getting past the spam filter
02:17:19 <oerjan> OTOH, do we really _want_ people with no reading comprehension...
02:19:01 <oerjan> (is there some way they might not be seeing the error message?)
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03:31:58 <zzo38> {1} Artifact Creature (1/1) ;; When ~ enters the battlefield, if it is a token, you lose the game. Do you like this?
03:36:30 <shachaf> How would you use it?
03:37:08 <zzo38> It is a 1/1 creature for one mana, so that is one use.
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03:38:37 <shachaf> Good point.
03:57:45 <oerjan> `? zerg
03:57:46 <HackEgo> We'll try to think of an entry here, but we don't want to rush it.
03:58:03 <oerjan> oh misread the logs
03:58:10 <oerjan> (thought it was missing)
03:58:36 <shachaf> `5 w
03:58:41 <HackEgo> 1/3:phantom_______hoover//It doesn't get any better than this. \ loodun//Loodun Antyok demonstrates how to play a lawful character the exact opposite way from the lawful stupid archetype. \ luftballon//A Luftballon is an experimental weapon first developed by the German military in 1983 designed to scramble fighter jets, causing chaos and sta
03:58:47 <shachaf> `n
03:58:48 <HackEgo> 2/3:rting wars between their enemies. \ oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. \ null pointer//Null pointers wer
03:59:05 <shachaf> `n
03:59:06 <HackEgo> 3/3:e bred to be more exceptional than other pointers. However, the whole effort went nowhere.
03:59:23 <shachaf> \oren\: What about two-storey lowercase g?
04:03:18 <int-e> I hate getting up in the middle of the night.
04:04:56 <oerjan> int-e: are you travelling somewhere?
04:06:40 <int-e> Yes, indeed.
04:07:35 <int-e> (Oxford, but not for ICFP directly, there's a second conference called FSCD colocated with ICFP)
04:08:06 <oerjan> that sounds like a lot of trouble just to avoid Taneb
04:09:05 <int-e> we have discussed this a bit :P
04:09:28 <int-e> Anyway, it's the same building... it's not completely impossible that we'll meet.
04:10:44 <int-e> assuming I make it there in one piece.
04:12:34 <int-e> @metar lowi
04:12:35 <lambdabot> LOWI 030250Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 -RA FEW006 BKN020 09/08 Q1017
04:13:00 <int-e> Well, eww. But I guess -RA is better than Ra.
04:14:36 <int-e> anyway, gotta go.
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04:34:53 <oerjan> `? turing machine
04:34:54 <HackEgo> A turing machine is a machine that turs.
04:36:08 <oerjan> `cat le/rm
04:36:09 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ rm-p "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
04:36:24 <oerjan> `` ls -l le/rm
04:36:25 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 13 Oct 28 2016 le/rm -> ../bin/forget
04:38:36 <oerjan> `? enigma:
04:38:38 <HackEgo> No output.
04:38:53 <oerjan> `forget enigma:
04:38:55 <HackEgo> Forget what?
04:55:06 <oerjan> `? oerjan
04:55:07 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it.
04:55:32 <oerjan> gah
04:57:24 <shachaf> i feel like that wisdom entry is maybe overdone a tad hth
04:57:24 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s,isiv,ipherabl,
04:57:26 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecipherable is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it.
04:57:41 <oerjan> you think?
04:58:24 <shachaf> pikhq: hikhq, how'z jamz?
04:59:07 <oerjan> `hwrl oerjan
04:59:08 <HackEgo> come on, you can type seven characters
04:59:15 <oerjan> aww
04:59:19 <shachaf> `oag bin/hwrl
04:59:20 <oerjan> `hurl wisdom/oerjan
04:59:20 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oag: not found
04:59:21 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/wisdom/oerjan
04:59:25 <shachaf> `doag bin/hwrl
04:59:32 <HackEgo> 9814:2016-12-02 <shachäf> mkx bin/hwrl//echo \'come on, you can type seven characters\'
04:59:42 <shachaf> What!
04:59:50 <shachaf> I completely didn't remember that.
04:59:56 <shachaf> I still don't.
05:03:28 <shachaf> Someone should tanebvent a script that takes a commit id and turns it into a log URL
05:03:41 <shachaf> It needs to account for time zones because tunes logs in Pacific time (I think?).
05:04:17 <pikhq> shachaf: College going alright.
05:04:55 <pikhq> 3 semesters away, whoo.
05:05:06 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm scrapping
05:05:14 <shachaf> What should I do now?
05:05:28 <pikhq> Unclear.
05:09:58 <oerjan> `8ball Should shachaf take up crocheting?
05:09:59 <HackEgo> As I see it, yes.
05:10:06 <oerjan> there you go.
05:11:22 <shachaf> `8ball What should shachaf take up?
05:11:22 <HackEgo> Crocheting.
05:12:19 <oerjan> i was _not_ doing that cheat hth
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05:17:23 * oerjan spots 125 mg sodium in one of HackEgo's recipes. are you sure these are healthy?
05:18:09 <shachaf> I had a blood test recently.
05:18:14 <shachaf> Apparently my sodium is slightly low.
05:23:40 <\oren\> So is hurrican Irma also going to Houston?
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05:53:44 <pikhq> I advise against taking a pill of pure sodium.
05:53:56 <pikhq> It might seem the most efficient, but it'll be a bit more exciting than you are likely to appreciate.
05:54:53 <shachaf> Hmm, what if I balance it out by breathing some chlorine at the same time?
05:56:19 <pikhq> Well, it'll add to the excitement.
06:02:26 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDZKUqIjVPY
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07:39:13 <APic> Moin
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07:54:03 <\oren\> To make more room for city, I flattened out the edge of this mountain
07:54:15 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/ADqkuVf
07:55:33 <\oren\> the flattening tool automatically stops at the city limits, so you get a cliff hundreds of feet tall
07:57:29 <int-e> . o O ( I know that money exchanges at airports are ripoffs... but this is the first time I've seen an ATM run by such a money exchange, which offers the same, very favorable (to them, they're a factor 1.15 from the nominal rate) exchange rates... )
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07:59:30 <FjordPrefect> Hey guys, I want to make a language to define rules for a 2d dungeon(rooms, paths and puzzles) with the compiler generating the dungeon
08:00:25 <FjordPrefect> The rules would describe interactions b/w items
08:00:49 <FjordPrefect> And pointers on how to get started on something like this?
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08:59:39 <zzo38> Not sure
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11:06:52 <zseri> I know that a function that takes 2 arguments is a binary function, but is there a similar name for functions or operators with no arguments?
11:13:28 <shachaf> Nullary?
11:20:59 <zseri> thank you
11:21:26 <zseri> I'll use that word now in my esolang's page for TEWNLSWAC.
11:28:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53001&oldid=52998 * Zseri * (-87) Expressions
12:07:27 <zseri> hm
12:32:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53002&oldid=44705 * Zseri * (+13) dead link
12:39:32 <zseri> I don't know if it's possible to write a brainfuck interpreter in TEWELSWAC or in TEWNLSWAC.
12:44:04 <zseri> but there should be a translation of a subset of HashHell (#hell) to TEWNLSWAC
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13:25:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Complode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53003&oldid=9684 * Zseri * (+66) improve formatting
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14:34:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53004&oldid=52399 * Qwertyu63 * (+0)
14:55:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53005&oldid=52623 * Qwertyu63 * (+54)
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15:01:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53006&oldid=53005 * Qwertyu63 * (+224)
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15:24:07 <zseri> Yeah, I finally got it. Hexchat works
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16:51:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53007&oldid=53001 * Zseri * (+30) /* Binary Operators */
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17:22:49 <int-e> Well it seems I made it.
17:37:12 <APic> Ok.
17:44:21 <int-e> riding two of those weird winged things made of aluminium
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18:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53008&oldid=9491 * Zseri * (+13) dead link
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19:41:19 <shachaf> I got an answer from Andrej Bauer: https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/77487/decidable-properties-of-computable-reals/80811#80811
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20:54:06 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNbLl14kjms
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21:35:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53009 * Stefan-hering * (+1846) Created page with "'''Javagrid''' is a two dimensional language about programming in a 2 dimensional grid. It is still in development. ==Language overview== Code is written in cells. A cell co..."
21:37:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53010&oldid=52986 * Stefan-hering * (+15)
21:39:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53011&oldid=53009 * Stefan-hering * (-14)
21:40:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53012&oldid=53007 * Zseri * (+64) const-reference
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21:49:19 <zseri> `? fizzbuzz
21:49:27 <HackEgo> fizzbuzz? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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21:52:40 <zseri> bye
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22:34:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Implicit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53013 * MD XF * (+578) Create page (reserve)
22:35:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53014 * MD XF * (+578) Created page with "Implicit, also called SimpleStack, is a WIP language by MD XF. There are two types of commands: * Those that behave differently on strings than they do on integers/floats *..."
22:35:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53015&oldid=53014 * MD XF * (-2)
22:35:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Implicit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53016&oldid=53013 * MD XF * (-2)
22:35:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Implicit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53017&oldid=53016 * MD XF * (+22)
22:36:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53018&oldid=53015 * MD XF * (+22)
22:38:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53019&oldid=53018 * Ais523 * (-576) please use redirects rather than creating multiple identical pages
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23:45:22 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1127546339
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2017-09-04
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02:40:19 <\oren\> I FINALLY DID IT
02:40:23 <\oren\> 200 K POPULATION
02:40:27 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1127628055
02:40:37 <\oren\> WUHU!
02:45:08 <oerjan> \oren\: is this about the time you send in the giant monsters?
02:45:43 <imode> only after copying his save file. :P
02:46:03 <oerjan> lynn: do you have the CJam cheat sheet somewhere? someone marked the link as dead on the wiki page
02:46:19 <lynn> oh yeah http://foldr.moe/cjam.pdf
02:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53020&oldid=53002 * Oerjan * (-41) /* Instructions */ Fix link
02:48:10 <oerjan> thanks
02:49:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53021&oldid=53020 * Oerjan * (+6) /* Instructions */ pdf warning
03:00:02 <oerjan> "The Official Crainfuck Distribution (dead link) (can someone please mirror this?)" apparently we couldn't.
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03:21:29 <oerjan> `? fizzbuzz
03:21:30 <HackEgo> fizzbuzz? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:21:52 <shachaf> fizziebuzzie
03:21:54 <oerjan> `learn Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords.
03:21:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'fizzbuzz': Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords.
03:23:10 <shachaf> And others by fizzwords.
03:23:52 <oerjan> you are technically correct.
03:24:20 <oerjan> but that wouldn't really improve the wisdom.
03:24:22 <ais523> oerjan: OK, that one's actually pretty funny
03:24:28 <oerjan> yay!
03:24:59 <ais523> also, I define "fizzword" as "a word used like a buzzword, but which was never meaningful"
03:24:59 <shachaf> ais523: I think tastes on wisdom entries vary.
03:25:08 <ais523> shachaf: indeed
03:25:15 <shachaf> So are all fizzwords buzzwords?
03:26:36 <ais523> I think buzzwords are generally originally meaningful, although the original meaning may have been dubiously useful at best and they may often be used in a way unrelated to their meaning
03:30:58 <shachaf> We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple.
03:31:15 <shachaf> The future has plenty of downsides but this is nice.
03:38:03 <oerjan> . o O ( the future brexit all, putin in downsides that trump everything )
03:38:22 <zzo38> Earlier today I tried connecting the printer to the USB on the front of the computer instead of the USB on the back, and this time it did not result a kernel panic
03:40:59 <ais523> did it result in a kernel panic the previous time?
03:45:14 <shachaf> hi ais523
03:45:21 <shachaf> Did you ever write up the rules to your jam?
03:45:34 <ais523> I have a jam?
03:45:40 <shachaf> I mean game.
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03:46:01 <ais523> shachaf: no, although I've been thinking about them
03:46:07 <ais523> trying to pin down certain details
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03:50:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Isny * New user account
03:51:54 <shachaf> What sorts of details?
03:52:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53022&oldid=52996 * Isny * (+158) /* Introductions */
03:55:43 <\oren\> best song of the game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4H5IArtaw
03:56:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53023&oldid=53010 * Isny * (+10)
03:57:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53024 * Isny * (+56) Created page with "Rev is a small, stack based language based on [[Mouse]]."
03:59:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53025&oldid=53024 * Isny * (+148)
04:01:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53026&oldid=53025 * Isny * (+585)
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04:02:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53027&oldid=53026 * Isny * (+29)
04:06:55 <zzo38> ais523: I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic.
04:07:19 <ais523> shachaf: mostly what each of the resources is used for
04:07:51 <zzo38> What is that game?
04:08:16 <\oren\> zzo38: jigoku kisetsukan
04:08:17 <shachaf> What resources are there?
04:08:56 <\oren\> http://store.steampowered.com/app/368950/
04:09:06 <shachaf> i,i with no other recourses but my own resources
04:09:09 <zzo38> No I mean ais523
04:09:55 <ais523> shachaf: even that wasn't pinned down until fairly recently, and I'm still not 100% on what one of them does in a specific circumstance
04:10:14 <ais523> zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible
04:10:23 <ais523> (the problems can either be balance problems or UI problems)
04:11:06 <imode> solaris is dead, long live solaris.
04:12:11 <shachaf> I was trying to think of a slightly different resource system for Magic: The Gathering at one point.
04:12:36 <zzo38> shachaf: What different resource system?
04:12:41 <ais523> this one's asymmetrical
04:13:04 <shachaf> One property of it was that instead of having red mana, you would have things requiring mana + red as two separate resources.
04:13:29 <shachaf> Which I guess is already the way some games work.
04:13:57 <zzo38> ais523: OK. I had some ideas too, such as writing the rules as a literate computer programming, to make the rules more clear, and if anything remains unclear, you can figure it out by putting it into the computer to figure out.
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04:16:36 <shachaf> MtG resources are pretty complicated.
04:16:48 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering has some things unclear and I thought to do by literate computer programming and mathematics to make clearer, although also there is still some klugy rules which are not quite so mathematically elegant; fortunately most of those problems have been fixed. They also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary; while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant,
04:16:52 <shachaf> E.g. karma that you can only use for casting creature spells, or that has an effect on a creature if you use that karma to cast it.
04:18:09 * oerjan thinks zzo38's client needs a wrap long lines feature
04:18:12 <zzo38> Well, it is "mana" and not "karma" in Magic: the Gathering, although yes those things do exist (but they aren't so common)
04:19:29 <zzo38> oerjan: I should perhaps to put in the mode to ring the bell if you try to type too much on one line, but I don't even know what limit
04:19:48 <shachaf> Sometimes there are other restrictions.
04:20:15 <shachaf> Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells
04:20:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, there are many other kinds too.
04:21:26 <shachaf> Oh man, Piracy
04:21:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i think it's 510 bytes for the whole IRC line
04:21:48 <ais523> and that includes information that's specific to the recipient, IIRC
04:22:03 <ais523> so there's no way to know exactly what limit is safe without knowing all the possible metadata the recipient could see
04:22:10 <oerjan> oh
04:22:50 <shachaf> Play it safe and don't write any messages longer than four bytes.
04:23:10 <zzo38> ais523: That is what I thought, which make it difficult to know what to set it to. I would make it a user configurable setting of course, but still I should have to know what to set it to!
04:23:44 <zzo38> shachaf: Can't; the word PRIVMSG itself is seven bytes.
04:24:39 <shachaf> That's not part of the message.
04:25:06 <zzo38> O,OK
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04:25:52 <oerjan> wait what. apparently my splitlong.pl script no longer exists on this server.
04:26:06 <alercah> splitlong works badly with freenode anyway
04:26:08 <alercah> been meaning to take it off
04:26:15 <oerjan> the symbolic link goes nowhere
04:26:42 <shachaf> I was going for <oerjan> OKAY
04:26:53 <shachaf> But <zzo38> O,OK works too.
04:27:36 <oerjan> why would i respond to messages directed at other people
04:28:38 <ais523> oerjan: one of the social rules you learn playing werewolf/mafia is not to respond to messages directed at other people
04:28:55 <zzo38> We aren't playing werewolf/mafia.
04:29:02 <ais523> there's no game rule against it but people will get annoyed at you if you do, because it can kind-of mess up their plans (and it looks like you're covering for the intended recipient)
04:29:41 <oerjan> oh i see. splitlong still works, somehow. perhaps it's become an internal irssi feature.
04:30:32 <pikhq> Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC?
04:31:49 <shachaf> ais523: I thought that was an in-person game.
04:31:55 <shachaf> Never heard of it played on IRC.
04:32:09 <ais523> shachaf: I mostly play it on web forums, although I've played it on IRC too
04:32:14 <shachaf> Do you play Contact?
04:32:21 <ais523> it works in pretty much any medium that allows for communication
04:32:24 <ais523> and I don't know what Contact is
04:32:28 <shachaf> It's a word game that can be played in person or over IRC, but I wrote a web application that implements it.
04:32:44 <zzo38> Yes I suppose that I should to add a setting for a bell in case of too long line. For my personal setting, I could assume that it uses a prefix ":zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-999-999.eastlink.ca " at the start (although it isn't actually "999") to figure out what limit to set
04:33:12 <shachaf> One person thinks of a word and reveals some prefix of it, and others try to think of clues for other words that start with that prefix.
04:33:40 <pikhq> Hrm, so there's a prefix part + PRIVMSG + target + message, in the server-to-client side portion.
04:33:42 <shachaf> If they can clue to each other successfully, one letter of the prefix is revealed.
04:34:41 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and "PRIVMSG" and the target and message are already counted, so the only remaining part is the prefix part, and the space that comes between it and "PRIVMSG".
04:35:50 <pikhq> There does not appear to be a maximum prefix length.
04:36:32 <zzo38> Doesn't matter now, since we can guess at it.
04:37:29 <oerjan> isn't it part of WHOIS reply for yourself?
04:37:37 <pikhq> A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned.
04:37:40 <zzo38> If there is a limit for the server to client length, then if the client to server length is not a smaller maximum then you will just make the guess. As I said it can (and I think it should in other client too) be a user-configurable setting.
04:38:01 <pikhq> It's 512 both directions.
04:39:05 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, and that is how to figure out, but still I should to just make the user setting (replacing "-56-48" with "-999-999" instead, in case those numbers change unexpectedly to three digits, which does seem possible).
04:39:51 <oerjan> 512 when counting CRLF, no?
04:39:55 <zzo38> (I actually want to change it to "@zzo38computer.org" instead of "@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca", but it seems that Freenode doesn't support forward-DNS cloaks.)
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04:40:19 <pikhq> oerjan: Correctly.
04:40:26 <ais523> pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS?
04:41:06 <zzo38> But, in case one of my previous messages today was cut off, then please to notify me that I can repeat the part that you did not receive.
04:41:47 <pikhq> I don't know that the prefix is actually required to be a real connection?
04:41:51 <pikhq> I mean, maybe it is.
04:42:02 <pikhq> Oh. There is an entry suggesting it's intended to be.
04:42:15 <pikhq> I don't see it as a hard requirement, but it seems that's the intent.
04:42:23 <shachaf> pikhq: Isn't it about time someone invented a good build system?
04:42:37 <shachaf> Will that person be you?
04:42:49 <oerjan> zzo38: the one i saw ended with "logical and mathematically elegant,"
04:43:06 <oerjan> which seemed like it might have been cut off
04:43:28 <zzo38> ... while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant, the change itself seems messy to me.
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04:44:40 <oerjan> isn't the prefix replaced with the freenode cloak if you have one?
04:45:06 <zzo38> The domain name is, but not the nickname and username.
04:46:21 <\oren\> http://make.girls.moe
04:47:18 <pikhq> Hunh.
04:52:50 <zzo38> ais523: Will you tell me what kind of stuff now is your game? Did you write any rules yet at all, or nothing yet?
04:55:27 <ais523> zzo38: I wrote some but I need to change some of it
04:59:28 <zzo38> Some of my ideas also are, that the cards can be sold in a box with all card of the set, arranged in sections by rarity (for assembling packs), and within each section by alphabetical order, which together with the included list of cards can be used to check in case any are missing.
05:00:19 <zzo38> Also would include the complete printed rules, and a DVD with open-source computer implementation of the rules and complete card database.
05:03:10 <zzo38> Some people have told me that the rarity is meaningless if they are in the boxes like that, but I disagree, because the rarities can be used to construct a "booster draft" like in Magic: the Gathering, or like sealed in Magic: the Gathering.
05:03:43 <zzo38> ais523: What do you think some of the biggest problems with Magic: the Gathering is, then?
05:04:49 <ais523> the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem
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05:05:15 <ais523> because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make
05:05:44 <ais523> in the rules I'm working on, priority is a more important part of the game (meaning that people keep track of it) and is gained much less often (making it less tedious to deal with)
05:06:13 <ais523> specifically, if it's not your turn, you can only do the equivalent of playing a spell or activating an ability if it's a response to something an opponent does
05:06:29 <ais523> (this obviously changes the balance of the game but it can be designed around)
05:07:55 <zzo38> Sirlin's "Codex" game has a different kind of solution: You cannot make any choices at all if it isn't your turn. This means that your opponent must declare blockers before you attack, instead of afterward.
05:09:10 <shachaf> i,i gain priority until end of turn
05:09:44 <ais523> zzo38: many games do that but it cuts down the tactical depth somewhat
05:12:07 <zzo38> Yes, I think you are correct.
05:13:21 <shachaf> ais523: Did you play Cale's favorite game, Prismata?
05:13:34 <ais523> no
05:13:43 <zzo38> Although I mean even more than in Pokemon card, where sometimes something you do does require opponent to make choices on your turn; in Codex, the rules explicitly prohibit this, in order to allow long delays of several days between turns.
05:17:11 <zzo38> However in Magic: the Gathering still the computer UI can be done, such as if you assign a key combination for each step/phase of the turn, and then if you push that key it will pass priority until that phase/step if no other player does anything and no new information is revealed. (You can also just pass priority normally.) Can also assign one key to auto-play during a mana step or such.
05:17:19 <shachaf> Oh man, correspondence Magic: The Gathering
05:17:25 <shachaf> That sounds like a good game.
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05:29:23 <oerjan> correspondence chess boxing
05:32:43 <zzo38> How are you going to fight by correspondence?
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05:35:37 <\oren\> correspondence Sid Meier's Civilization
05:38:12 <Cale> oerjan: It's on the honour system. You get a letter in the mail and it has "Bxe5. Left hook."
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05:40:25 <shachaf> Keith Johnstone talks about games like mimed tug-of-war and slow-motion tag.
05:40:53 <shachaf> Sometimes people play those games and try to win, which is obviously pretty silly.
05:43:24 <zzo38> Perhaps after I fix the bug in MIXPC with LD1N instruction, I can also to add the overpunch mode. Some characters will no longer be valid MIX characters (or even valid Hollerith characters) when overpunched, so sometimes the result is lossy, especially since the file is using 8-bit characters rather than 12-bit characters.
05:46:53 <zzo38> (Overpunch mode is something I have not seen in any other MIX implementation. The other thing I have not seen in other MIX implementations is the support to connect to an actual printer for output (although MIXPC still supports print to file, too).)
05:48:20 <zzo38> The ability to split a partially read card deck might be another thing to add, too.
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07:07:54 <ais523> shachaf: OK, I wrote up what I have so far: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt
07:08:43 <ais523> this should hopefully be a framework that's general enough to do lots of interesting things but simple enough that it's clear how it works, even if a few of the rules look complex when written down
07:08:50 <ais523> I'm hoping it'd be more intuitive in actual play
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07:10:54 <zzo38> OK I will read too
07:13:28 <zzo38> Does the General have a different card back than the other cards?
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07:13:52 <zzo38> Or is it the same?
07:15:47 <ais523> I hadn't thought of that; within these rules it doesn't matter, so making it different might make it easier to find if it gets shuffled into a deck by mistake
07:16:26 <shachaf> You could make it a different size, too.
07:17:48 <zzo38> There are benefits in either case; it depends whether or not they should be drafted together. In Magic: the Gathering, conspiracies (which are purely optional) are drafted together with the rest of the cards.
07:18:32 <ais523> I assume that, if this game is distributed using booster packs, generals would show up in those occasionally
07:18:39 <ais523> although probably not very often as decks only need one
07:18:44 <ais523> that'd be a reason to make them the same size
07:19:42 <zzo38> I think it depends on whether or not you are going to draft them together, whether or not to make the back the same, although if they do come in the same pack that is a good enough reason to be the same size whether or not the back is the same.
07:20:38 <shachaf> I meant larger but I suppose you could make it smaller too.
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10:24:30 * b_jonas tries to read recent backlog of this channel. "I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic." and "Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells" wait, magma?
10:24:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: I can tell about the irc length limits if you want to know more details
10:27:19 <b_jonas> "<ais523> the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem / because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make" => yes, but I think you can still make a decent computer interface that allows players to rollback actions by other players and requires explicit confirm for irreversable events like revealing new information that the player doing the ac
10:28:08 <b_jonas> I think it could be made to work decently for M:tG, at least within Earthly communication lag.
10:28:50 <b_jonas> "<ais523> pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS?" => yes, but the list can change dynamically
10:29:33 <b_jonas> and the list isn't even made automatically public by the IRC infrastructure, so it's not quite clear if the docs on their homepage is complete or if the DNS entry for chat.freenode points to all servers (there may be non-public servers)
10:29:49 <b_jonas> they are likely complete most of the time, but you can't tell how up to date
10:31:17 <b_jonas> "<pikhq> A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned." => freenode has a length limit of 63 bytes on the hostname, above that it will display the ip or ipv6 address
10:32:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: one tricky part is that there's an extra byte in the received message for PRIVMSG and NOTICE messages that is only added if the client requests it with an option. It's an obsolate extension, but many clients still use it.
10:33:14 <b_jonas> "<pikhq> Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC?" => not globally accross all networks, not really. not with quakenet supporting channel names up to 200 bytes.
10:34:57 <b_jonas> on freenode, 356 bytes is the definitely safe limit, but you can go longer if you know some of the target name, your nick and username and hostname (but the server can change your nick asynchly for a nick collision)
10:35:41 <b_jonas> what's this thing ais523 was talking about? is he designing a new game?
10:37:27 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> [your rules] also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary;" => that sounds like a bad idea to me. aren't there more than one very powerful Jaces, and decks with 16 planeswalkers played competitively even in Standard?
11:27:01 <b_jonas> ``` \? fizzbuzz # lol
11:27:31 <HackEgo> Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords.
11:28:01 <b_jonas> "<ais523> zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible" => what was the context for this? what is that set of rules?
11:29:54 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple." => wow. that's some serious future indeed. I'll probably buy a new mobile phone this year or next year, and it will be one I can charge with these USB charger thingies that I'm already using to charge my camera, bluetooth microphone headphone adapter, and electric razor.
11:30:08 <b_jonas> (although the camera requires the other kind of cable)
11:32:22 <shachaf> Your other things all use USB type-C?
11:33:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: the razor and the headphone adapter uses the same plug as most current mobile phones. I'm not sure if that's "type-C"
11:34:01 <b_jonas> my other things aren't charged by USB
11:36:48 <b_jonas> in particular, my mobile phone is charged by a round plug DC charger
11:37:04 <b_jonas> it has a USB port, but only for data, not charge
11:38:58 <b_jonas> the camera uses the other, slightly less common USB port, which some other cameras use too
11:43:23 <b_jonas> (the electric toothbrush doesn't use USB either, but that's probably a good thing)
11:46:30 <shachaf> Ah, probably not.
11:46:44 <shachaf> USB type C is the future, man.
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11:47:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't believe it. people keep saying that the current standard is the future and I should buy into it now because everything and everyone will use only that in the future, but it often lasts only a few years or at most ten years. I'm older than to believe that.
11:48:26 <b_jonas> It's a great way to sell things, I admit that, and I've been tricked by it several times during my life.
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11:52:53 <b_jonas> you know what I'd like? a calendar that displays both the name of the month and the number of the month together.
11:53:06 <b_jonas> most calendars have just one or the other
11:53:22 <b_jonas> but I actually use both and need to know both
11:58:50 <\oren\> well english names have numbers in them, but the wrong numbers
12:03:03 <Hoolootwo> just use the discordian calendar, only 5 months to rememer
12:06:26 <APic> Aaand St. Tibb's Day, but only in Leapyears ☺
12:07:24 <APic> s/ibb/ib/
12:15:34 <b_jonas> @Hoolootwo: but I don't want to remember anything. that's the whole point. the calendar is there to remember everything instead of me.
12:15:34 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
12:16:37 <b_jonas> Even in our calendar, I'm generally only confused about the matching of names and numbers in three months now.
12:16:54 <b_jonas> Or maybe four.
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12:48:47 <Taneb> ICFP is very busy
12:51:20 <int-e> Yeah I'm noticing this too.
12:51:45 <int-e> Though L1 is still pretty empty right now.
12:52:18 <b_jonas> what? an empty L1 cache? that's a miracle
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12:53:11 <int-e> b_jonas: you're out
12:53:30 <int-e> http://icfp17.sigplan.org/room/icfp-2017-venue-l1
12:54:32 <int-e> Well at least I've seen SPJ from afar :P
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12:58:54 <int-e> and in any case it's filling up now
13:01:46 <Taneb> int-e: it may have been pretty empty but it may have in fact contained me
13:02:55 <Taneb> But L1 suddenly got very not empty at all
13:07:48 <Taneb> Although I somehow have a free seat either side of me
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13:49:37 <Taneb> int-e: are you here all week?
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14:35:44 <zseri> hi again
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14:46:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Natyre]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53028&oldid=51308 * Keymaker * (+47) Clarified one sentence.
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14:56:06 <int-e> Taneb: I'm leaving on Saturday
14:56:23 <int-e> now back in L2 :P
14:57:11 <int-e> ("back" in the sense that FSCD is what I'm registered for)
15:12:09 <b_jonas> ICFP contest full results are now available at https://icfpcontest2017.github.io/
15:12:24 <b_jonas> not too surprising since the prizes are given on the conference
15:13:32 <b_jonas> ah no
15:13:34 <b_jonas> it's not full results
15:13:48 <b_jonas> it's just almost full results, because they hold back the full results until the prize ceremony
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15:56:54 <mroman> moo
15:57:16 <mroman> how does stuff like if (x > z) || (q <= r) assemble on x86?
15:58:30 <int-e> if?
15:59:12 <mroman> or not if
16:00:03 <int-e> in any case there is no single answer. mov rax, x; cmp rax, y; jg l; mov rax, q; cmp rax, r; jle l; jmp g; l: ... g: ... is the most naive way but no good compiler will do that.
16:00:29 <mroman> https://godbolt.org/g/Atht9E
16:00:32 <mroman> so it needs jumps
16:00:34 <mroman> indeed
16:01:27 <int-e> there's set<cc> <reg> where <cc> is a condition code (like g or le above) and r is a register
16:01:38 <mroman> but with -O3 it will be setg
16:01:44 <int-e> which doesn't jump, so doesn't mess up branch prediction.
16:02:14 <mroman> I was planning on adding equ, lt, lte, instructions
16:02:23 <mroman> such as equ dst a b
16:02:29 <mroman> which sets dst to 1 if a == b otherwise 0
16:02:43 <mroman> this way you don't need two instructions
16:03:18 <mroman> (I was also planning on having a cmp instruction)
16:03:25 <mroman> (which can be used for conditional instructions)
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16:50:12 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9sE2S8Pho
16:52:56 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is Wizards of the Coast who removed the planeswalker uniqueness rule. The new way seems logical and makes sense to me, although the change itself looks messy to me (retroactively changing planeswalkers to legendary).
16:53:56 <alercah> zzo38: are you talking about the M14 rule changes?
16:54:15 <alercah> because that did not retroactively change them to legendary
16:56:30 <zzo38> No I mean the future change
16:58:19 <alercah> ah
16:58:22 <alercah> I hadn't seen them
17:00:09 <int-e> but wasn't the legendary rule changed as well not too long ago?
17:03:28 <zzo38> Do you mean this change? https://yawgatog.com/resources/rules-changes/dgm-m14/#D704.5k.
17:03:42 <zzo38> Or a more recent change?
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17:14:17 <int-e> that one
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17:41:02 <zseri> I plan to drop the load (l) and store (v) commands of TEWNLSWAC
17:41:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: WHAT?
17:41:24 <b_jonas> let me look that up. that looks strange.
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17:41:50 <zseri> because I can emulate them using nested objects.
17:45:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't see where that happened. was this recent?
17:47:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: unless it's a change so recent it's not in the Comp Rules yet, it doesn't look to me like they changed planeswalkers to legendary. the changed the legend rule and the planeswalker uniqueness rule at some point so they only count within permanents controlled by one player, not across players, but planeswalkers still care about their 'walker type, not their name.
17:47:31 <b_jonas> whereas legendary permanents care about their name.
17:47:46 <alercah> b_jonas: they just announced it
17:48:12 <b_jonas> alercah: can you point to a source?
17:48:16 <alercah> b_jonas: google can
17:48:17 <alercah> hth
17:50:25 <b_jonas> http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ixalan-mechanics
17:50:32 <b_jonas> no wonder I hadn't heard that yet
17:51:03 <b_jonas> how is that going to work in Modern with the 16-planeswalker decks? will we have a 12-Jace deck now? or did those always only work in Standard?
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17:53:16 <b_jonas> well, "Legendary Planeswalker - Tezzeret" still comfortably fits the type line with the new ugly font, so it's technically possible. it might even be better for understanding, and they probably know more about whether it turns Jace to too dangerous
17:53:59 <b_jonas> the fact that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is still banned in Modern probably helps
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17:59:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53029&oldid=53012 * Zseri * (-226) removed sdat stack (update with interpreter)
17:59:19 <zseri> ok, done.
18:07:29 <zzo38> I did say it is a future rule, not a current one.
18:08:30 <zzo38> Still, that kind of change does seem messy to me, even though I think the new way is sensible.
18:11:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are only a few cards that care about non-creatures being legendary, such as one in Amonkhet and a few in Kamigawa.
18:12:07 <b_jonas> some of those cards get better, some worse.
18:12:21 <b_jonas> and yes, I know we have planeswalker creatures, but printed and animated after the fact
18:12:37 <b_jonas> ok, technically none of them are printed as a creature
18:12:51 <b_jonas> but one or two have a built-in ability to turn them to a creature
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19:08:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53030&oldid=53029 * Zseri * (+45) symbol vs variable
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19:12:16 * int-e has confirmed the existence of Taneb (though this is really a zero knowledge proof)
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19:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53031&oldid=53030 * Zseri * (+38) /* Binary Commands */
19:19:17 <* Taneb> conversely has the beginnings of an existence proof for int-e
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19:52:12 <mroman> dear gogogle
19:52:15 <mroman> *google
19:52:16 <mroman> fuck you
19:52:22 <mroman> please stop thinking I'm not human.
19:52:30 <mroman> kthxbye
20:02:04 <int-e> mroman: don't be a bot, have a cookie!
20:04:31 <mroman> I'm a bot.
20:04:33 <mroman> With a failing liver.
20:04:52 <shachaf> You have a failing liver?
20:07:54 <mroman> My transaminases are elevated.
20:07:58 <mroman> they don't really know why.
20:08:06 <mroman> but it usually indicates some damage to the liver.
20:09:58 <mroman> thus it might not be the liver failing
20:10:09 <mroman> it might be something else failing that just happens to also punch the liver in the nuts
20:10:51 <zzo38> I think that the rule about maximum health being reduced to also reduce current health should be clarified.
20:17:45 <mroman> ?
20:17:48 <mroman> Magic the Gathering?
20:18:12 <ais523> mroman: probably the TCG work-in-progress that I posted here last night
20:18:18 <zzo38> Also I think can be simplify by the manoeuvres not giving name for each action also, and instead to have something like "manoeuvre name: negative resources, source -> destination, positive resources: action"
20:18:19 <ais523> beacuse shachaf's been bugging me about it for months
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20:18:44 <ais523> zzo38: I like giving things names because it makes it possible for cards to talk about them
20:19:00 <ais523> one big problem that Magic had was not differentiating between, say, fire and lightning spells mechanically early on
20:19:06 <zzo38> For example "Start: hand -> ready, logistics 5: End the turn."
20:19:09 <ais523> meaning that they can't draw a mechanical distinction nowadays
20:19:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, I have mention that a few days ago. they don't have a damage type system.
20:19:48 <ais523> massive in particular is something that things probably want to care about
20:19:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: what was this rules thing you were talking about earlier?
20:20:00 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but the manoeuvres and aspects still themself have names
20:20:14 <wob_jonas> "massive"?
20:20:21 <ais523> also that manoeuvre in particular would make it possible to end the turn with a card on the tactics track; the rules handle that state but it's something I'd imagine you'd do rarely if at all
20:20:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: "massive: end your rurn"
20:20:34 <ais523> *turn
20:20:50 <ais523> basically, this game doesn't have summoning sickness
20:21:09 <zzo38> ais523: I do mean "end your turn", and doesn't the rules say you can't end any turn if there are any tactics?
20:21:11 <ais523> so the easiest way to make something that's ready to defend as soon as it's played, but can't attack as soon as it's played, is to end the turn when it becomes ready
20:21:24 <ais523> zzo38: not via the normal methods
20:21:30 <ais523> but I assume rules on the cards override the rules of the game
20:23:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: what game is this again? is it the one you're planning that I don't know much about?
20:24:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: it doesn't even have a name yet
20:24:20 <ais523> here are my notes: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt
20:24:47 <wob_jonas> is it a trading card game? if so, then we can just call it Feather: TCG; or Feather: Collectible Card Game.
20:26:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: I was also trying to figure out if I could make something of a toy TCG, but I quickly realized I'm bad at designing entirely new games or writing new stories, I should just stick to analyzing existing games and existing stories.
20:26:03 <zzo38> Possibly, can then to write the Haskell program (or some other programming language) to make an implementation on computer, and can be made literate programming so that this is the rule document it explain the rule including by computer program too.
20:26:15 <wob_jonas> I did come up with a few mechanics, but they don't really work together.
20:26:21 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't think it has anything to do with Feather
20:26:24 <zzo38> wob_jonas: What did you come up with?
20:27:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: probably the most useful idea I had is that when creatures attack you (which normally happens once per turn) you get to evade (escape, run away from) one for free by default.
20:27:51 <wob_jonas> in that case they don't deal combat damage to you, but you can also do this if you also don't want to deal combat damage to them
20:28:49 <wob_jonas> and then there can be a ton of abilities that modify this, both on creatures (fast creatures you can't evade, slow creatures so you can evade any number of slow creatures or up to one non-slow creature) or abilities affecting the player (boots of speed to evade an extra creature per combat)
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20:30:21 <ais523> `card-by-name darksteel myr
20:30:30 <HackEgo> Darksteel Myr \ 3 \ Artifact Creature -- Myr \ 0/1 \ Indestructible (Damage and effects that say "destroy" don't destroy this creature. If its toughness is 0 or less, it's still put into its owner's graveyard.) \ SOM-U
20:31:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: being able to cancel one attack a turn (unless it's hard to stop) is apparently worth 3 mana
20:32:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: in M:tG. I'm not saying this rule in context of M:tG
20:32:14 <wob_jonas> but good to know
20:32:25 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, I was just thinking "M:tG has done something similar"
20:32:35 <ais523> although Darksteel Myr doesn't have defender, which makes it better if you increase its power somehow
20:33:30 <ais523> `card-by-name maze of ith
20:33:31 <HackEgo> Maze of Ith \ Land \ {T}: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn. \ DK-U, EMA-R, ME4-R, V12-M
20:33:54 <ais523> that also has a similar effect, although IIRC it's normally considered broken
20:34:13 <ais523> (as you can see from the set of sets it's printed in!)
20:34:15 <wob_jonas> If you asked that in advance, the cheapest I'd have known is four mana, for Trap Runner (which works on fliers and even unblockable creatures by the way) or Uncle Istvan (a very old pseudo-indestructible creature)
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20:42:50 <wob_jonas> ah right. Order of the Stars. that works well enough for this in practice
20:43:20 <ais523> `card-by-name order of the stars
20:43:22 <wob_jonas> in fact, wait
20:43:25 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Beloved Chaplain
20:43:26 <wob_jonas> even better
20:43:47 <wob_jonas> that's straight two mana and is good against any creature it can block
20:44:13 <HackEgo> Beloved Chaplain \ 1W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ Protection from creatures \ OD-U
20:44:13 <HackEgo> Order of the Stars \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 0/1 \ Defender (This creature can't attack.) \ As Order of the Stars enters the battlefield, choose a color. \ Order of the Stars has protection from the chosen color. \ GPT-U
20:44:15 <wob_jonas> I didn't know about that one. I used Inviolability, which is an aura version.
20:44:35 <ais523> you could make the argument for mother of runes, actually
20:44:39 <wob_jonas> haha, its flavor text is actually “Nomad and Nantuko, eagle and elephant; all the birds and beasts are charmed by his quiet dignity.”
20:44:44 <ais523> she can block a creature, then give herself protection from it after the block
20:44:53 <ais523> although that's hardly the most broken thing you can do with that card
20:45:00 <wob_jonas> the quiet dignity in that quote and its art is in nice contrast with Inviolability, which has the opposite flavor
20:45:43 <ais523> also I don't recognise those set codes
20:45:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: not "then give protection". they all already have protection almost all the time.
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20:46:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: I was talking about mother of runes
20:46:07 <ais523> `card-by-name mother of runes
20:46:08 <wob_jonas> GPT is Guildpact, from Ravnica block
20:46:09 <HackEgo> Mother of Runes \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ {T}: Target creature you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn. \ UL-U, CMD-U, EMA-R, DDO-U
20:46:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, that does more
20:46:30 <wob_jonas> oh right, that's the expensive one for one mana
20:46:32 <wob_jonas> yes, that's even better
20:46:42 <wob_jonas> I didn't pick up when you mentioned that
20:46:44 <ais523> oh, OD must be Odyssey
20:46:58 <ais523> mother of runes is probably the best creature costing {W}
20:47:16 <wob_jonas> I don't think it's the best, but it might be close to
20:47:34 <wob_jonas> there's a lot of competition for best
20:47:38 <ais523> what do you think is better?
20:47:42 <wob_jonas> and depends on the environment
20:48:02 <wob_jonas> some environments have longer matches with many creatures, in those the Soul Sisters are probably better
20:50:56 <wob_jonas> and I suspect the best creature costing {W} would be more expensive in money than what Mother of the Runes cost for uncommon
21:08:29 <wob_jonas> OH NO more double-faced cards with a land on the back face and a new pair of symbols identifying which face is the front and which is the back. STOP THAT, Wizards. You shouldn't have printed the first one either.
21:08:47 <zzo38> I don't like double face cards
21:09:10 <int-e> wait what does that do to the sleeve market?
21:09:56 <wob_jonas> and the icon for the back face is even fucking the same as the land icon on Future Sight timeshifted futuristic border cards. That's even worse.
21:10:57 <wob_jonas> int-e: not much, I think.
21:11:28 <wob_jonas> (Ok, technically the icon isn't exactly the same, but it is very similar.)
21:11:55 <wob_jonas> (Maybe it is exactly the same. I can't tell from this low resolution.)
21:12:19 <wob_jonas> Ah wait! This one isn't so bad
21:12:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: Wizards have a perpetual problem trying to identify which side of a DFC is which, in an objective way that can be written into the rules
21:12:46 <wob_jonas> it has a reminder text on the back side that says it's the back side
21:12:46 <wob_jonas> then I guess it's OK
21:12:54 <ais523> I think that's why they have the reminder text
21:13:36 <int-e> so what do the rules say about faking a reminder text?
21:13:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah. it doesn't help that they keep messing up the Gatherer, so very often double-faced cards (and flip cards and split cards) show up wrong in Gatherer itself. If even they don't know, how should I know?
21:13:54 <wob_jonas> int-e: faking in what sense?
21:13:58 <ais523> that said, I can't imagine that the reminder text is the actual rules-defined way to tell the sides apart
21:14:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, it's probably not. but that's not a problem here
21:14:24 <ais523> wob_jonas: M:tgO sometimes has a bug where it allows half a split card to exist on its own
21:14:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: my problem is that if you happen to never look at the FRONT of the card, you might not realize the card is double-faced, and think it's a single face land
21:15:12 <ais523> you'd notice when you tried to put it into a deck
21:15:20 <ais523> or sleeve it
21:15:30 <ais523> or do people sleeve cards without ever looking at the other side?
21:16:20 <int-e> oh god, there are sanctioned proxies ("checklist cards")?!
21:16:35 <ais523> int-e: they're not really proxies, they look nothing like the original
21:16:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: I probably do sometimes sleeve cards that way when making a deck, but I already know more or less what cards I have in my collection and would know if I had a double-sided card (I have zero. I also have no flip cards. I do have a few split cards.)
21:16:50 <ais523> their only purpose is to have a normal back so that they can represent the position of a DFC in a deck without giving it away, even if you don't use sleeves
21:17:49 <int-e> ais523: they are proxies in the literal sense; they stand for the card indicated on the checklist.
21:17:57 <ais523> btw, part of the purpose of the reserves in my game is so that if you want to do something DFC-like, you can just fetch the other card from the reserves
21:18:09 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, it's sort of backwards. during a game, the checklist cards are the normal cards you use most of the time, and you can use the double-faced to represent the card in public zones. when buying or submitting a deck or drafting, that's when you need the double-faced card to be allowed to use it, and the checklist cards are penny cards you alw
21:18:09 <wob_jonas> ays have or can get access to.
21:18:36 <mroman> this channel is full of nerds.
21:18:52 <ais523> they're a combination token supply and sideboard and back-DFC-face and tuner for tunable cards (i.e. I'm envisaging cards that can affect opponent's cards only if you have a copy in your own reserves, so you can choose to hate out specific cards)
21:19:04 <int-e> `quote nerd
21:19:06 <HackEgo> 102) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 482) <elliott> we need more films aimed at the lucrative irc nerd demographic
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21:21:14 <zzo38> ais523: Ah, OK I suppose that can work, I like that
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21:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53032&oldid=53011 * Stefan-hering * (+167)
21:24:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53033&oldid=53032 * Stefan-hering * (-48)
21:25:08 <zseri> bye
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21:35:44 <int-e> mroman: great, now I'm wondering what the implementation limit of the number of users in a channel in ircd-seven is
21:36:05 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't think there's a strict limit for that.
21:36:16 <int-e> (how else would an IRC channel be "full"?)
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21:38:38 <wob_jonas> int-e: but in practice the biggest legitimate channels in freenode top out below 2000 joined, and those are moderated the most quickly so there won't be much flood on them, so I don't think any individual big channel would cause a problem
21:39:07 <wob_jonas> especially because those less than 2000 nicks will be distributed decently around the more than 10 servers
21:46:49 <fizzie> int-e: If configured with --enable-small-net, 256; otherwise 32768.
21:48:04 <fizzie> Assuming MEMBER_HEAP_SIZE measures that. It might be something else. But the BAN_HEAP_SIZE sounded reasonable for a banlist size limit.
21:49:09 <fizzie> Never mind. Apparently that's not the limit, that's just the allocation block size.
21:49:55 <wob_jonas> fizzie: you could ask #freenode if you want to know for sure. they're usually helpful about these sorts of IRC software questions, as long as it's software used on freenode
21:50:05 <wob_jonas> I mean server and services software
21:50:07 <fizzie> I like digging into code more.
21:50:15 <wob_jonas> sure, that's fine too
21:50:29 <wob_jonas> I've done it myself a few times, but usually I just ask #freenode
21:50:37 <wob_jonas> (or TIAS for things where that's possible)
21:51:09 <wob_jonas> (but I can't really test for what inter-server race conditions are possible, especially not ones that require a netsplit at the right time)
21:54:06 <fizzie> No explicit limit in the same place (conf_channel_table) the ban list is configured, so maybe there isn't a limit. Anyway, it's kind of implicitly limited by the number of clients of the network.
21:55:32 <wob_jonas> (nor can I easily check for what the longest possible hostname is, so I just had to ask that)
21:55:46 <wob_jonas> (I'm not going to set up reverse DNS entries for that)
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22:33:17 <fizzie> Hm. The wiki's started being intermittently slow again, at least according to the graphs. (It was surprisingly snappy for a while after the CaC downtime.)
22:34:58 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/esolangs-response-time.png
22:35:48 <shachaf> is that what'sitcalled
22:35:59 <shachaf> It looks like it's not just the wiki but everything?
22:36:04 <ais523> shachaf: so what do you think of my TCG rules so far?
22:36:05 <shachaf> What's overall?
22:36:37 <shachaf> ais523: I read them but it's hard to see how some of the rules would play out without examples.
22:36:43 <ais523> shachaf: right
22:36:52 <shachaf> Of course those are a lot more work.
22:36:55 <ais523> I have a general idea in mind but still don't have the details pinned far enough down that I can make examples
22:37:03 <ais523> it may be that some of the rules would have to change
22:37:07 <shachaf> It sounds like this game is meant to be played both printed and on the computer?
22:37:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: well sure, it's clearly not final
22:37:17 <ais523> shachaf: yes
22:37:59 <shachaf> There are a lot of design choices that you can only realistically make in software.
22:38:41 <ais523> right
22:38:55 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's a good question. what are the edge conditions you're designing for? a collectible/trading card game (as in, players can buy cards and choose which ones to put in their decks, but the game tries to be such that you won't have a linearly more powerful deck by just buying more powerful cards), two players making separate decks from their
22:38:55 <wob_jonas> collection or draft independently,
22:39:06 <ais523> one of the design choices was to have status and current health as the only tracked values needed to explain the gamestate
22:39:30 <ais523> (this is the reason that "overhealing" increases combat damage, as that's a common sort of semipermanent change to want to make)
22:39:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: also is it supposed to be playable with just the paper cards and not much other tools, esp. no computer,
22:39:37 <fizzie> I'm not sure about "what'sitcalled", but sure, yes, it's generally slow. Though a lot of the non-"wiki" things are still wiki-related, that's just filtering to actual MediaWiki page loads.
22:39:48 <shachaf> grafana
22:39:51 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, it's meant to be playable with just cards and counters for current health
22:39:56 <fizzie> It's grafana, yes.
22:40:04 <ais523> it's also meant to be much simpler than M:tG UI-wise on a computer
22:40:21 <shachaf> Priority is pretty tricky to implement well on a computer, I imagine.
22:40:37 <ais523> right, priority here passes much less often than M:tG
22:40:47 <ais523> it's pretty much entirely "do you want to respond to this?"
22:40:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't really see why this would be much simpler UI-wise than M:tG, but obviously it depends on the details like what cards you have
22:41:14 <ais523> and only one person having priority at any given time means that there's no arguments over who plays a card "first"
22:41:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: think about one player going to combat in M:tG, when the other player has an instant in their hand that they can play
22:42:01 <ais523> explaining how that works even in M:tG in paper is complicated, and in fact there had to be a rules change recently due to people exploiting the nature of the priority passing rules
22:42:15 <ais523> and on a computer, you either have to click OK a lot of times or configure "always yield" settings for the various parts of combat
22:42:59 <shachaf> What rules change?
22:43:36 <ais523> shachaf: IIRC it was a change to exactly what happened if someone said "go to combat"
22:43:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's because the current UI sucks. you could have a better UI that allowed you to continue specifying your actions assuming the other players use the default until either (a) you deliberately want to wait for other players to confirm they do the default to avoid revealing info or (b) the game would have to reveal you some info that you do
22:43:54 <wob_jonas> n't already know, eg. drawing a card.
22:44:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: if you play the game that way, which is sort of similar to what happens when you play on paper, then there's much less messing with priority.
22:44:38 <wob_jonas> if the other player decides to not do just the default actions, then the game rolls back to the point where he first doesn't do the default actions.
22:45:10 <wob_jonas> this is implementable by computer, and I think it would be easier to use and learn for the players than the current system.
22:45:29 <ais523> shachaf: see a) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/24/policy-changes-for-amonkhet/ (from "Communication" onwards), b) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/27/how-to-think-about-the-new-combat-shortcut/
22:45:36 <wob_jonas> (it still only works if you have no more lag than earth-mooon sized ones between the players)
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22:45:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: you might want to see those too
22:45:59 <wob_jonas> I think I've heard of them, but let me check them
22:46:03 <ais523> it's really good evidence of quite how complicated M:tG gets in corner cases to stop people pulling priority scams on each other
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22:56:19 <ais523> hmm, that second article I linked seems to think there's a card named "Grizzly Bear"
22:56:59 <wob_jonas> ais: no, it seems to think "Grizzly Bear" is a reasonable shortcut to name a creature
22:57:25 <ais523> I guess
22:57:34 <wob_jonas> which it is I think, although it's sort of moot because that card is more an example there than a real card used in tournament
22:57:41 <ais523> but in that case "attack with grizzly bears" is ambiguous as it's implied that there are two of them, so are you attacking with one or both?
22:57:57 <ais523> although I guess that it'd be obvious if they didn't have vigilance
22:58:02 <wob_jonas> I use such simple well-known cards as examples in rules questions too, even though I don't actually play Grizzly Bears in my decks (I do have that card in my collection)
22:58:44 <ais523> I think I own one as well? but it isn't a very good card
22:59:20 <wob_jonas> I own Flashcoat Bears which is practically always better, unless you have Petroglyphs
22:59:25 <wob_jonas> no wait
22:59:30 <wob_jonas> it's called Ashcoat Bears
22:59:35 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Ashcoat Bears
22:59:38 <HackEgo> No output.
22:59:40 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Ashcoat Bear
22:59:41 <HackEgo> Ashcoat Bear \ 1G \ Creature -- Bear \ 2/2 \ Flash (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant.) \ TSP-C
22:59:45 <wob_jonas> that then
23:00:13 <wob_jonas> and I don't even play that one
23:00:45 <wob_jonas> But everyone knows about that card, which is why it's great for rules examples
23:01:10 <ais523> `card-by-name kalonian tusker
23:01:11 <HackEgo> Kalonian Tusker \ GG \ Creature -- Beast \ 3/3 \ M14-U
23:01:20 <ais523> still not all that good, but better in a green deck
23:02:37 <ais523> I'm busy looking through all the 3/3s for 2
23:02:48 <ais523> smuggler's copter is probably the best (and indeed, got banned in standard)
23:02:53 <ais523> `card-by-name smuggler's copter
23:02:54 <HackEgo> Smuggler's Copter \ 2 \ Artifact -- Vehicle \ 3/3 \ Flying \ Whenever Smuggler's Copter attacks or blocks, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card. \ Crew 1 (Tap any number of creatures you control with total power 1 or more: This Vehicle becomes an artifact creature until end of turn.) \ KLD-R
23:03:20 <ais523> the drawback turned out not to be nearly large enough
23:05:06 <wob_jonas> yeah, but that one is relatively new. If you have the double green mana, back in my days Elvish Warrior or Simic Guildmage were the most decent choices, then later we got Garruk's Companion.
23:05:28 <wob_jonas> If you want only one colored mana, there's also Stonewood Invoker and later Woodland Changeling which are slightly better than the bears.
23:05:54 <ais523> the guildmage cycle is one of the things that started jading me to Magic
23:05:56 <wob_jonas> (Simic Guildmage and Stonewood Invoker and Woodland Changeling are elves)
23:06:12 <ais523> I thought "a 2/2 with no drawbacks for {R/B}{R/B} is bigger than those colours normally get"
23:09:07 <wob_jonas> it was at that time. these days we at least have 2/2 with no drawbacks for RR
23:09:47 <wob_jonas> And Black Knight always existed, and was printed in large numbers, but I don't think there were many other choices for a 2/2 for BB with no drawbacks
23:10:30 <wob_jonas> (before Kamigawa)
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23:12:09 <ais523> `card-by-name ash zealot
23:12:10 <HackEgo> Ash Zealot \ RR \ Creature -- Human Warrior \ 2/2 \ First strike, haste \ Whenever a player casts a spell from a graveyard, Ash Zealot deals 3 damage to that player. \ RTR-R
23:12:11 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, not a game rules change.
23:12:20 <ais523> shachaf: tournament rules change
23:12:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: that one does have a drawback of course
23:12:56 <ais523> OK, technically speaking ash zealot has a drawback? but it's hardly ever going to come up (especially if you build a deck accordingly
23:13:01 <ais523> )
23:13:04 <wob_jonas> yeah
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23:18:18 <wob_jonas> but Ash Zealot is much newer
23:18:32 <wob_jonas> it's from RTR, that's lots of years later than ravnica with the guildmages
23:21:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, maybe you're sort of right and something like those rules might avoid some of the priority shenanigans. but of course the cost is that you don't yet have twenty years of history you have to be compatible with, or even twenty years of carefully designed future cards with enough new thing each year to keep players interested.
23:21:43 <wob_jonas> but yes, some of the priority problems may have been avoided by designing against them from the start.
23:21:54 <wob_jonas> still, I don't think it's that big of a difference.
23:24:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: I believe this sort of the priority problem is the #1 reason that online Magic isn't more popular
23:28:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: is it? I thought it was mostly because people don't want to buy both paper cards and online cards, and paper is the obvious choice
23:29:11 <wob_jonas> I imagine a few years into the future cards would have unique identifiers printed on it (unique per copy) so you can easily load them into your online account, but even that solves only half of the problem.
23:29:15 <ais523> wob_jonas: compare Hearthstone to Duels of the Planeswalkers
23:30:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: M:tG is old. it started when online wasn't really possible yet. so the first people started in paper, and most people start playing with their friends, and so matching their friends' choice of paper vs online.
23:31:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: Hearthstone started in 2014 and was designed as an online game in first place
23:31:17 <ais523> wob_jonas: also the original rules weren't very thought out
23:31:29 <ais523> a lot of progress has been made at trying to tame the chaos
23:31:33 <wob_jonas> sure
23:31:38 <wob_jonas> that's definitely true
23:31:50 <wob_jonas> M:tG is the most popular TCG only because it was the first one
23:32:00 <wob_jonas> and I'm not even sure it's still the most popular
23:32:15 <wob_jonas> but it probably is
23:32:16 <ais523> it probably is?
23:32:22 <ais523> it's apparently had a lot of growth recently
23:32:28 <ais523> despite doing its best to drive away all the existing players
23:32:48 <ais523> from BFZ to Amonkhet, they appear to have had no idea how to balance the game
23:33:02 <ais523> and had to make emergency changes to their internal processes in an attempt to bring things back under control
23:33:12 <shachaf> I haven't played any of those sets.
23:33:25 <shachaf> Has it gotten much worse than before?
23:33:40 <ais523> there was the famous incident a while back when they declared (on the banned and restricted announcement day) that they weren't banning a card, then had to emergency ban it a few days later
23:34:20 <ais523> shachaf: we've had four Standard bans over the last year or so (Reflector Mage, Smuggler's Copter, (Emrakul, the Promised End), Felidar Guardian)
23:34:34 <ais523> Magic hardly ever bans cards from Standard, when they do it's normally a sign that they really screwed up
23:34:54 <ais523> as it's a) a pretty small format, making it easier to catch problems in it, b) one of the two main formats they focus on when balancing
23:35:03 <ais523> BFZ block additionally managed to break Modern
23:35:06 <ais523> and lead to bans there, too
23:37:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: anyway, many M:tG interface problems are a consequence of the way rules changed over time
23:37:47 <ais523> originally you had to float mana before playing spells, which is simple enough
23:37:59 <ais523> but people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell, so the rules changed to let you generate mana then too
23:38:12 <ais523> and now we have a situation where floating mana exists but is rarely used, and spells have two sequences for playing them
23:38:25 <ais523> it'd have been a lot neater to just not have a mana pool from the start, but it's too late to change now
23:38:53 <wob_jonas> hmm
23:39:36 <wob_jonas> yes, I can sort of see why that would complicate the interface
23:44:37 <shachaf> ais523: whoa, what?
23:44:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: what's unclear?
23:44:56 <shachaf> When I learned the rules of the game in 2013, I thought you always had to use mana from your pool to cast spell. It seemed simple enough.
23:45:04 <ais523> shachaf: that hasn't been true for ages
23:45:24 <shachaf> Eventually I learned that you can announce the spell first, and then activate mana abilities to pay for it.
23:45:38 <shachaf> And that there are all sorts of complexities there.
23:45:48 <shachaf> But now you say that originally it worked the way I thought?
23:46:14 <shachaf> Why did they ever change it? That's such a straightforward way to handle it.
23:46:16 <ais523> shachaf: in early Magic, yes
23:46:21 <ais523> and because people kept doing it wrong
23:46:30 <shachaf> "people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell" -- that's definitely not an excuse.
23:46:44 <ais523> the Magic designers/developers/rules team seem to think that it's better to change the rules to allow for human nature, than to try to fight it
23:46:47 <shachaf> You can just say that it's a shortcut or whatever you want that has the same effect. No need to make a big rules change for it.
23:46:53 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the mana is in the pool, but during the process of casting a spell or activating the ability, you get a chance to activate mana abilities (with a few rare exceptions) if the spell or ability needs mana payment
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23:47:07 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Yes, I know how it works now.
23:47:23 <ais523> shachaf: another big reason is cards that let people make payments unexpectedly
23:47:30 <ais523> `card-by-name rhystic study
23:47:30 <HackEgo> Rhystic Study \ 2U \ Enchantment \ Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may draw a card unless that player pays {1}. \ PR-C
23:47:37 <ais523> err, not thato ne
23:47:43 <ais523> but the rhystic cycle generally
23:48:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: also when they added that rule, it didn't make the rules too complicated, because a few actions demanded mana payment by a player other than the one who plays the ability, those existed ages ago, and they already had to support activating mana abilities to pay mana.
23:48:02 <ais523> "opponents can pay {1} or something good happens to you" is way more powerful if the opponent had to keep {1} floating all the time
23:48:11 <ais523> under the current rules, they can just generate the {1} on the spot
23:48:21 <wob_jonas> ah, ais was faster
23:48:23 <shachaf> A better reason would be that there are various non-mana payments that you make as you announce the spell/ability, and that there's no reason for mana to be different.
23:50:04 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that doesn't sound like a good reason to me. you'd still make the mana payments during announcing the spell or ability, only now you can also activate most mana abilities (which generate most of your mana) at that time
23:50:23 <shachaf> I kind of like that one interaction that these rules make possible.
23:50:46 <shachaf> E.g.
23:50:49 <shachaf> `card-by-name wall of roots
23:50:50 <HackEgo> Wall of Roots \ 1G \ Creature -- Plant Wall \ 0/5 \ Defender \ Put a -0/-1 counter on Wall of Roots: Add {G} to your mana pool. Activate this ability only once each turn. \ MI-C, TSP-S, ARC-C
23:51:35 <shachaf> If you had a spell that costs {G} and as an additional cost requires you to sacrifice a creature, and you have a Wall of Roots with four -0/-1 counters on it, you could use it to pay for the spell.
23:51:51 <ais523> this is arguably a problem for the learnability of Magic
23:52:01 <wob_jonas> ugh no. it generates lots of really ugly interactions, mostly because you can do heavy effects like moving cards between zones for the cost of a mana ability, and that can in turn immediately generate even heavier effects, including players leaving the game. it's totally rare, but shouldn't be possible.
23:52:06 <ais523> as many such tricks work and many such tricks don't and it can need an intricate knowledge of the rules to work out which is which
23:52:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: you're reminding me of the tricks you can use in multiplayer games to pick on players via conceding at specific moments
23:52:46 <wob_jonas> I think the idea that a player can lose immediately, rather than only the next time state-based effects are checked, is a bad idea, complicates multiplayer rules a whole lot
23:52:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but it can happen without conceding
23:53:03 <wob_jonas> rarely, but it can
23:53:05 <ais523> some playgroups actually have a house rule that you have to wait until the stack is empty before conceding, in order to prevent that happening
23:53:19 <wob_jonas> from indirect effects by a mana ability
23:53:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: I assume this involves replacement effects? things like paying your last point of life aren't fast enough
23:53:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: uh, I don't quite remember.
23:53:50 <wob_jonas> maybe I'm just stupid here and conceding is the only way
23:54:24 <wob_jonas> but even then, without players losing, there are rules patching around the problem that activating mana abilities may require you to reveal new information like drawing a card. those information are hidden because of extra rules.
23:54:32 <wob_jonas> to preserve rollbackability
23:55:21 <ais523> `card-by-name lich
23:55:22 <HackEgo> Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ As Lich enters the battlefield, you lose life equal to your life total. \ You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ Whenever you're dealt damage, sacrifice that many nontoken permanents. If you can't, you lose the game. \ When Lich is put into a graveyard
23:55:29 <ais523> oh, that's a triggered ability
23:55:36 <ais523> I think there's a card like that where it's a replacement ability
23:55:40 <wob_jonas> (the other problem is of course that stupid Wurm.)
23:55:41 <ais523> so it lets the game loss happen at mana ability speed
23:55:45 <ais523> `card-by-name nefarious lich
23:55:46 <HackEgo> Nefarious Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ If damage would be dealt to you, exile that many cards from your graveyard instead. If you can't, you lose the game. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ When Nefarious Lich leaves the battlefield, you lose the game. \ OD-R
23:55:54 <ais523> right, that's a replacement ability
23:56:15 <wob_jonas> ah yes, the original lich too
23:56:22 <ais523> although I'm not sure offhand that you can deal damage at mana ability speed
23:56:26 <ais523> original lich is triggered
23:56:26 <wob_jonas> no wait, not the original one
23:57:12 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Adarkar Wastes
23:57:13 <HackEgo> Adarkar Wastes \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}: Add {W} or {U} to your mana pool. Adarkar Wastes deals 1 damage to you. \ IA-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R
23:58:16 <ais523> oh, I thought that cycle went via a trigger somehow
23:58:21 <ais523> but it doesn't, so that works I think
23:58:25 <wob_jonas> that's the more popular title, the shocklands
23:59:04 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Watery Grave
23:59:05 <HackEgo> Watery Grave \ Land -- Island Swamp \ ({T}: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool.) \ As Watery Grave enters the battlefield, you may pay 2 life. If you don't, Watery Grave enters the battlefield tapped. \ RAV-R, GTC-R, EXP-M
23:59:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: I came across the painlands first
23:59:23 <wob_jonas> and it makes you pay life, which won't kill you
23:59:29 <ais523> but misremembered them as working like city of brass
23:59:47 <ais523> (which would be very awkward wording, so I'm not surprised they don't!)
23:59:51 <ais523> `card-by-name city of brass
23:59:51 <HackEgo> City of Brass \ Land \ Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ AN-U, CH-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, MMA-R, ME4-R
23:59:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, the shocklands are in ravnica, and they're so popular because they have basic land types, and there are search lands searching for lands with basic land types
2017-09-05
00:00:09 <ais523> I know why the shocklands are good
00:00:53 <wob_jonas> whereas I started playing when Dissension was already out, which is why I don't notice that those weren't first
00:01:12 <wob_jonas> sure, I do have some idea about earlier sets, but often forget
00:01:15 <ais523> I started playing with 9th edition
00:01:19 <ais523> and stopped early into lorwyn
00:01:49 <ais523> (i.e. 9th, ravnica block, coldsnap, time spiral block, 10th, and a bit of lorwyn)
00:03:04 <wob_jonas> (I know it was Dissension, not just Guildpact, because the person who introduced me brought Sky Hussar. I have seen people play M:tG before, but I haven't played.)
00:03:36 <ais523> dissension is an odd place to start, really
00:03:59 <ais523> one "problem" with the original ravnica block is that it only really makes sense as a combined entity, rather than being playable set-by-set
00:04:07 <ais523> although dragon's maze is even worse in that respect
00:04:18 <wob_jonas> Coldsnap may have been out, but only very recently, so I have only seen cards from it a month or two later when I bought my first cards, which was the Coldsnap black-blue theme deck.
00:04:33 <ais523> it did have one of the most intriguing names ever, though, people were asking for dragon's maze spoilers during rtr, rather than asking for the next set as usual
00:04:43 <wob_jonas> In retrospect, the black-blue Coldsnap theme deck is a bad one as a beginner product, but obviously I didn't know that.
00:04:51 <ais523> also I don't hate Coldsnap as much as most people do
00:05:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't hate Coldsnap, I'm just saying it was not good as a first set of cards to buy.
00:05:42 <wob_jonas> It's fine to buy later.
00:06:10 <wob_jonas> But at this point it doesn't matter.
00:06:12 <ais523> I think people don't like it because it sucked to draft
00:06:27 <ais523> although people are bad at figuring out what draft environments are good until Wizards has already stopped supporting them
00:06:30 <wob_jonas> I have so many cards that one theme deck doesn't matter.
00:06:56 <ais523> this is probably what lead to the balance issues, Wizards deciding that trying to balance the sets carefully was a waste of money because they move onto the next set anyway before it's figured out
00:07:08 <wob_jonas> "supporting" as in you can no longer buy boxes cheap, or only that they are no longer played much in tournaments?
00:07:21 <ais523> they both happen around the same time, probably not coincidentally
00:07:54 <ais523> but when I first started playing Magic, I was under the impression that the game had been continuously refined and optimized over time and would always stay much the same
00:07:55 <wob_jonas> wait, it lead to the balance issues which time? I don't think that's happened the last time. It may have happened back ten years ago.
00:08:09 <ais523> seeing the name "ninth edition" made me think "ooh, this has had a lot of work put into it"
00:08:29 <ais523> but it turns out it's actually a game where they randomly change things every few months to keep it fresh, whether the old things worked or not
00:08:29 <wob_jonas> hehe... yes, that's a bit misleading because the second edition is exactly the same as the first
00:09:09 <ais523> beta and unlimited?
00:09:24 <ais523> it starts ABUR4 so I assume alpha and beta are collectively the first edition
00:09:28 <wob_jonas> but then, core sets from ninth to M12 did have a lot of good work put into refining it, perhaps more so then the block expansions
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00:09:41 <wob_jonas> yes, AB are collectively the first edition
00:10:00 <wob_jonas> it's silly but they won't change the numbers now
00:10:07 <ais523> wob_jonas: well tenth was definitely an attempt to mix things up
00:10:09 <wob_jonas> because the numbers are printed on the core sets from fifth to tenth
00:10:11 <ais523> `card-by-name lightning bolt
00:10:12 <HackEgo> Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, MED-C, PD2-C
00:10:27 <ais523> wait, it was in M10 /and/ M11? I can't be reading that correctly
00:10:34 <alercah> nope that's right
00:10:38 <alercah> tenth was garbage though
00:10:40 <ais523> wow
00:10:42 <wob_jonas> yes, and it wasn't tenth
00:10:51 <alercah> M10 was when they shook things up
00:11:01 <ais523> one problem with numerical core sets is that it's hard to remember which ones are which
00:11:04 <wob_jonas> I like tenth, but mostly because of nostalgy. M10 might actually be a better set, even with all the new cards.
00:11:15 <alercah> tenth was the core set before M10
00:11:25 <ais523> right, I know it went tenth, M10
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00:13:12 <wob_jonas> what I don't like about the current direction magic is heading to is that they keep making changes that amount to printing more and more distinct cards per year. this started at approximately coldsnap or tenth edition. they always give very nice sugar-coated explanations of why the particular change is good, but the gross number of new cards per ye
00:13:12 <wob_jonas> ar always keeps going up, almost never down.
00:13:41 <wob_jonas> and some of the explanations are even kind of mutually contradictory.
00:14:45 <wob_jonas> it's like that time many years ago when they first raised bus prices to encourage people to travel by train which is cheaper to run, then later they raised train prizes to harmonize mass transport prizes and not disadvantage people who live in places with no train.
00:15:50 <wob_jonas> (this was before the time when they raised the prices of trains that stop at fewer stations, but basically every train stops at fewer stations, so you don't have a real choice. that one was much more obvious because they did it in a single step.)
00:16:03 <ais523> a while back in Birmingham, the bus and train companies went through a phase of repeatedly undercutting each other by 10p
00:16:06 <ais523> alas, it couldn't last
00:16:42 <wob_jonas> this is between cities, not within Budapest, in case that's not clear
00:17:23 <ais523> intercity train travel in the UK is very expensive except when it's randomly much cheaper
00:17:41 <ais523> coach travel can be very reasonable but it's slower
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00:19:16 <wob_jonas> it's always expensive in Sweden, but there are surprising price differences between different types of trains and buses on the same line, depending on at least whether you forfeit your right to refund your ticket, and whether the price for reservations increases dynamically by time like with international airplane tickets. both of those categories
00:19:16 <wob_jonas> don't exist here.
00:19:48 <wob_jonas> there's also a difference between trains where you need a seat reservation versus no, which is a distinction that exists in Hungary but very often you only have one of those choices
00:19:51 <ais523> most train lines in the UK have four price categories: anytime, off-peak, super off-peak, advance
00:20:13 <ais523> having a reservation is orthogonal to this (although it'd be unusual to get an advance ticket without a reservation)
00:20:15 <wob_jonas> this is partly because south-Sweden is big and has multiple big cities and big airplanes, so there's a lot more train and bus travel than in Hungary
00:20:44 <ais523> although, many train companies, when selling advance tickets, just give you a ticket saying you're guaranteed a seat but don't allocate any specific seat, to save the trouble of putting the "reserved" signs onto the seats
00:21:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, even though you get a seat number, in practice seat reservations work that way on trains in Hungary too (and often in cinemas)
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00:22:22 <wob_jonas> that is, most passengers and the controllers don't care about the seat numbers unless there's a dispute between passengers
00:23:45 <wob_jonas> this is unlike airplane tickets or theatre tickets, where people only swap places locally among nearby ones in the same row or when the airplane stewards ask, in theatres because they're more full (a movie is cheap to repeat multiple times for the cinema) and in airplanes partly because of security reasons the airlines insist
00:25:11 <wob_jonas> also for some reason many people seem to seem to consider different seats in an airplane to have different values, so much that some airlines even sell the right to choose your seat at an extra price and a varying price depending on the position,
00:25:45 <alercah> seats with extra legroom fetch a premium usually
00:25:50 <wob_jonas> whereas on the trains where you can get a seat reservation, usually all seats are equivalent (this is sometimes not true for some trains with no reservation, because those are lower comfort)
00:26:49 <wob_jonas> alercah: yeah, but then I don't want extra legroom seat on airplanes because those are usually at the front row so you can't keep your luggage at your feet
00:27:11 <wob_jonas> the extra legroom is probably worth more on longer flights though, on which I rarely fly
00:27:50 <wob_jonas> on long bus trips, I'll certainly take the extra legroom any time, but that usually just manifests in the difference between a 40 seat bus versus a 50 or 63 seat bus, which you can't really change
00:29:34 <ais523> in the UK, most long-distance trains have two tiers of seats
00:30:04 <ais523> known as first class and third class for silly historical reasons, although the "third class" name typically isn't used nowadays (they have "first class" and "standard class" or "first class" and "not first class")
00:30:29 <ais523> but the vast majority of people don't buy first class seats, as they often aren't much better, and when they are, they're often very expensive
00:30:32 <shachaf> sounds like a topic for #trains, y'all
00:30:42 <ais523> and it's leading to something of a problem because of trains getting fully packed
00:30:50 <alercah> wob_jonas: the exit row in particular is what I was thinking of
00:30:57 <ais523> sometimes they have to open up the first class section, without first class advantages, to normal tickets
00:31:20 <wob_jonas> alercah: that has the same problem. no luggage at your feet because it obstructs the emergency exit.
00:31:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, of course, but they don't sell that except for very expensively
00:31:42 <alercah> that's usually been allowed when I've been on flights
00:31:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: it depends on the route
00:32:18 <wob_jonas> most of the flights I've been on are cheap ones that don't even have first class seats (they do have middle class seats)
00:32:23 <wob_jonas> (well, some do)
00:33:48 <ais523> wob_jonas: I picked a random off-peak train journey from Birmingham to London to compare, far enough in the future that Advance tickets are still cheap (also on a Saturday so that I don't run into peak time restrictions)
00:34:09 <wob_jonas> the class distinction on trains is totally meaningless too these days by the way. most trains only have second class, because people just don't buy first class tickets, so the company just uses originally first class carriages as second class. and the distinction between different trains is much bigger than the class distinction.
00:35:06 <wob_jonas> I wouldn't be surprised if they removed the distinction entirely a few years into the future, it's just that MÁV is a huge company with lots of bureaucracy plus is regulated heavily by the state because it's mostly a monopoly which means even more bureaucracy, so changes take a lot of time.
00:35:07 <ais523> it costs £17 (London Midland) / £27 (Virgin) first class, or £6-£8 (London Midland) / £11-16 (Virgin) third class
00:35:17 <ais523> that's on Advance tickets, which get more expensive the more of them have been bought
00:35:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, I'm saying this for trains in Hungary
00:35:38 <ais523> let me check Chiltern
00:35:39 <wob_jonas> they can totally matter in other countries
00:35:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm just interested to compare
00:35:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: are those on the same train?
00:36:27 <ais523> wob_jonas: same set of trains; Virgin and London Midland use similar routes, but London Midland's is less direct and therefore cheaper because it takes longer
00:36:30 <wob_jonas> different classes of trains are very real, although sometimes you have limited choices, but sometimes you do have a real choice, and the price difference may be zero or it may be bigger than the difference between first and second class.
00:36:57 <ais523> Chiltern is charging £5.50 to £12 on trains during the same set of days
00:37:07 <ais523> they have a notably different route but it's comparable to the other two
00:37:12 <zzo38> Make your own implementation of Magic: the Gathering in computer if you have a better idea.
00:37:32 <ais523> after all, they all go from Birmingham to London, and normally you wouldn't vary the route based on where in London you ended up
00:37:42 <ais523> as you'd probably have to make a journey within London anyway
00:37:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: are there ever three distinct classes of carriages on the same train? "third class" in Hungary is something from before I was born
00:37:58 <ais523> but Chiltern doesn't even seem to have a first class
00:38:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: no, basically what happened was that the government decided that trains were too expensive
00:38:20 <ais523> so asked trains to introduce third class tickets (that were cheaper than the existing second class)
00:38:27 <wob_jonas> expensive to run or expensive to travel on?
00:38:32 <ais523> and it wasn't long before second class had vanished altogether because first and third were just more sensible option
00:38:36 <ais523> *options
00:38:37 <wob_jonas> ah
00:38:39 <ais523> expesnive to travel on
00:38:41 <wob_jonas> so there's first and third class
00:39:00 <wob_jonas> makes sense
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00:40:05 <ais523> that £5.50 to London on Chiltern is crazy, though
00:40:25 <ais523> admittedly it's in the middle of the day on a Saturday, in the heart of super off peak time, and it's booked like a month in advance
00:40:56 <ais523> but I hadn't realised that prices that low were actually achievable except on adverts showing the lowest possible price because that's what adverts do
00:41:33 <oerjan> <ais523> known as first class and third class for silly historical reasons <-- the first class gives you a better chance if the train hits an iceberg hth
00:41:56 <ais523> oerjan: on many services, first class is at one end of the train, often the front
00:42:04 <ais523> so it might give you lower chances in the case of a train hitting something
00:42:18 <ais523> although london midland put first class in the middle of a middle carriage, normally
00:57:29 <fizzie> I think at least on quite a lot of companies, it's now just first class and "standard class".
00:57:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: now as for your game design draft, you don't allow payments of moving a card other than the one that has the mano written on it, right?
00:58:12 <ais523> wob_jonas: wasn't planning to, at least to start with
00:58:41 <ais523> it might be possible to find a nondisruptive way eventually, probably as long as the other card moved doesn't touch the tactics track; you'd probably have to ban the card from being manoeuvred itself
00:58:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: so moving other cards can only be an action, and there are no restrictions on how much they can move a card at the same priority, and you just ignore impossible actions, right?
00:58:53 <ais523> wob_jonas: right
00:59:26 <ais523> I didn't mention it, but the intention is that any action that can't be fully carried out is entirely ignored (also, health can go negative), but with multiple actions, it's possible for one to fail and others to succeed
00:59:27 <wob_jonas> "beyond their current health" is probalby a minor typo
00:59:34 <ais523> err, probably
01:00:04 <fizzie> Virgin is one of those companies. ("Our WiFi is complimentary in First Class, and pay as you go in Standard Class, --")
01:00:28 <wob_jonas> what's missing to me from this document is listing manos that are common among a large class of cards (like all creatures, all lands, all spells, whatever)
01:00:55 <wob_jonas> also I don't quite understand how playing cards from your hand usually works.
01:02:01 <wob_jonas> it seems like they can't just go to the tactic from your hand, because then you couldn't distinguish between the card used from your hand or from the ready; but if they go directly to the busy or ready or attached, then how do you counterspell them?
01:02:08 <fizzie> [[ Trains in Great Britain provide a two-tier class structure, with the higher tier called "first class". The lower tier was re-branded from "third class" to "second class" by British Rail from 3 June 1956, and then to "standard class" from 11 May 1987. ]]
01:02:35 <ais523> aha, so that's what happened
01:02:43 <wob_jonas> obviously you could have cards that are directly spent from your hand or something
01:02:52 <wob_jonas> but cards have to get to the bf somehow
01:03:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, the way it works is that most cards go from hand to tactic 1, but from play to attack / defend / tactic 2
01:03:22 <ais523> at least, that's the plan
01:03:32 <wob_jonas> hmm
01:03:42 <wob_jonas> so they can go directly to tactic 1 even if attack is empty?
01:03:50 <ais523> in some cases, the effect on being initially played is the same as the effect you get from an ability, so you could just "replay" it as a discount
01:04:06 <ais523> and yes, the same physical slot on the board is used for tactic 1 (when there's no attack) and for defending (when there is an attack)
01:04:18 <ais523> mostly so that 2 continues to have the same meaning, of a slot where you respond to your opponent's action
01:06:05 <wob_jonas> ah right, you even mention this as ""Deploy" is a very common manoeuvre name; it always includes "hand → tactics 1" and no positive resource usage, but the negative resource usages vary."
01:08:36 <wob_jonas> also "This might be able to do with an overspill" sounds odd to me, but maybe it's an Englishism
01:12:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: "overspill" isn't actually a noun, I'm just using it as one
01:13:06 <ais523> "with a consequence for overspilling" would be more correct
01:15:16 <wob_jonas> So can an enchantment add manos to the card it's attached to? Or is that forbidden?
01:18:47 <wob_jonas> (the ugly phrasing is because in M:tG, when you attach a Holy Strength enchantment to a Devoted Hero creature, then the Holy Strength is the "attached permanent" but the Devoted Hero is the "enchanted permanent" even though to attach something and to enchant something is sort of the same; and "equip" works the same as "enchant". the terminology is
01:18:47 <wob_jonas> confusing.)
01:19:14 <wob_jonas> (luckily most of the time in M:tG it's obvious what the words mean because the abilities make sense only for the aura or only for the creature.)
01:21:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: grafting manoeuvres onto cards seems like a reasonable use of an aspect
01:21:52 <wob_jonas> ok
01:21:54 <ais523> (also, writing that document made me much better at spelling "manoeuvre", it's not an easy word to spell)
01:22:13 <wob_jonas> yeah... although you could just choose a different word instead in that case
01:22:14 <ais523> although I think it's spelled "manoeuver" in US English? not sure on that
01:22:55 <wob_jonas> anyway, it's late so goodbye, channel
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01:23:31 <ais523> night
01:32:50 <shachaf> @time ais523
01:32:52 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Tue Sep 5 01:32:51 2017
01:32:57 <shachaf> I'm on and off at the computer.
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02:01:09 <oerjan> . o O ( just spell it "manøver" hth )
02:04:07 <ais523> surely ø̈ would be a better vowel there?
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02:11:49 <oerjan> ais523: we don't use that in norwegian hth
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02:43:55 <zzo38> ais523: I think the rule of your kind of game, to become more clear, to write the open-source computer program of it, possibly by the literate programming so that they same document can also be all of the same text, as well as the computer program codes.
02:45:15 <shachaf> zzo38: What I want, instead, is for card text to be written in a declarative programming language such that you can generate both behavior and readable English text from it.
02:45:27 <zzo38> I don't really care which word you use, but you should use words that you can write with ASCII and be understandable all of the card, even if you may use some non-ASCII characters in their document they should not be require
02:45:55 <shachaf> I think requiring ø is OK.
02:46:16 <zzo38> shachaf: That is another idea yes, and I have thought about that too. Although, I was talking about the rules rather than the cards.
02:46:58 <shachaf> Well, I'd prefer for most of the rules to be implemented in the same programming language as the cards.
02:47:01 <zzo38> But about requiring a slashed "o", well, I think that is not even the correct spelling anyways, so it does not make sense. And even if it is used in the word, it doesn't cause problem with ASCII-only communications anyways.
02:47:27 <shachaf> Only a small core language needs to be part of the definition of the game itself.
02:47:37 <shachaf> And I don't care whether the core language is specified in English.
02:48:02 <shachaf> zzo38: ASCII-only communication is outdated
02:48:06 <zzo38> shachaf: At least in the case of Magic: the Gathering that does make sense, but for ais523's game it seem difference
02:48:08 <shachaf> It has gone the way of Gopherr.
02:48:29 <shachaf> Oh, I wasn't talking about either of those games, but a hypothetical game I haven't described.
02:48:37 <ais523> shachaf: I like the idea of storing cards as AST and converting it to English and code
02:48:38 <zzo38> O, OK, then it works fine.
02:48:54 <ais523> although the English should convert back to the AST too, otherwise people wouldn't know what a card did by looking at it
02:49:14 <shachaf> ais523: Ideally the language describing card behavior would be simple enough that people could also read it directly.
02:49:17 <pikhq> @metar KAFF
02:49:17 <lambdabot> KAFF 050058Z AUTO 33015G23KT 8SM CLR 24/03 A3029 RMK AO2 PK WND 34026/22 SLP178 T02390030 $
02:49:31 <shachaf> But it would be good if there was a canonical translation back and forth to English.
02:49:32 <zzo38> ais523: Actually that idea I have thought of even for use with Magic: the Gathering too (but not the second part about back conversion, which would make the text a bit messy I think)
02:49:34 <pikhq> 8? I dispute that claim; that is too high.
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02:49:40 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
02:49:40 <lambdabot> KOAK 050053Z 34006KT 9SM BKN140 BKN200 26/19 A2984 RMK AO2 SLP105 T02560189
02:49:46 <ais523> shachaf: perhaps it should be a subset of English?
02:49:54 <shachaf> ais523: Sure, just like Magic: The Gathering
02:49:54 <pikhq> The air would be nicer if it was breathable.
02:49:57 <ais523> M:tG is sort-of like a "programming language that's a subset of English" already
02:50:01 <ais523> but not that well specified
02:50:07 <shachaf> ais523: It's annoying that Hearthstone card text doesn't describe behavior completely at all.
02:50:19 <shachaf> In fact people have to reverse-engineer card behavior sometimes.
02:50:20 <ais523> hearthstone is trying to deal with screen size problems
02:50:30 <ais523> that's part of the reason why aspects, manoeuvres, actions all have names
02:50:36 <ais523> so that on a small screen, you can display just the name
02:50:54 <ais523> and people know what the names do most of the time, or if they don't, there'd be some way to look up the corresponding action
02:50:55 <pikhq> That 8 mile visibility is from smoke.
02:51:04 <shachaf> ais523: MtG card language is fairly well-specified, but it can also say whatever it wants.
02:51:30 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, mostly it is well specified enough. Not quite, though.
02:51:50 <ais523> shachaf: I'd argue that it's very poorly specified, although rigid
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02:52:00 <ais523> there isn't even a grammar, unless you count Alex Churchill's
02:52:01 <zzo38> And, "almost" isn't good enough.
02:52:03 <ais523> which is unofficial
02:52:14 <shachaf> ais523: I like using keywords and short descriptive words in card names.
02:52:29 <shachaf> But I kind of wish those were part of a "standard library", separate from the core game rules.
02:52:33 <ais523> actually I think one of my favourite innovations is cards referring to themselves in first person
02:52:40 <shachaf> Yes, I liked that.
02:53:25 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering has text editing effects, which implies a AST anyways, even if nobody has ever written it down.
02:54:01 <shachaf> gain hug until end of turn
02:54:01 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I like that too, although it isn't only you who did that; someone else too has described a game they were making, with the same thing, to me.
02:56:48 <zzo38> My ideas for AST for Magic: the Gathering is one example can be: [:counter [:target :spell]] or [:counter [:target [:and [:not :black], :spell]]] and it can use precise rules (written in open-source computer code) to describe the exact conversion and meaning.
02:58:17 <zzo38> ("Counter" in Magic: the Gathering has another meaning too, which refers to a one-shot property, although in this AST the two kind of "counter" are two different words.)
02:58:42 <ais523> zzo38: I think RoboRosewater uses "unspell" internally?
03:00:32 <zzo38> OK, maybe, and yes that will work too. (Or maybe it uses "uncast"; I don't know, but that works too)
03:00:37 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like the chain rule?
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03:02:22 <alercah> zzo38: text editing doesn't require an AST
03:02:31 <shachaf> It just requires S
03:02:55 <alercah> oh wait
03:03:07 <alercah> I forgot that it refers to types
03:03:09 <alercah> so yeah it does
03:03:15 <alercah> nvm
03:03:34 <zzo38> What chain rule and what about chain rule?
03:03:46 <shachaf> The derivative one.
03:04:55 <zzo38> O, yes, OK
03:05:57 <ais523> the chain rule makes intuitive sense if you see derivatives as limits of deltas
03:05:58 <shachaf> The chain rule makes a lot more sense when you add types.
03:06:03 <shachaf> It's the only thing that type-checks.
03:06:13 <shachaf> ais523: How do you mean?
03:06:23 <ais523> shachaf: there's two ways to write it
03:06:33 <ais523> dy/dx = dy/du × du/dx is the one I'm thinking of
03:06:58 <ais523> the other version is less symmetrical, shorter, and comes to the same thing
03:07:01 <shachaf> That's the best way to write it, though I haven't figured out quite what it means.
03:07:26 <ais523> shachaf: basically, y is a function of x, but can also be written as a function of u, where u is a function of x
03:07:32 <shachaf> Yes, I know that much.
03:07:47 <ais523> so you can differentiate y with respect to u, because y is a function of u
03:07:49 <shachaf> I like Leibniz notation a lot. But I don't really know how to formalize it.
03:07:58 <ais523> and you can differentiate u with respect to x, obviously
03:08:36 <shachaf> Hmm, do people often write things like "d(x^3)/d(x^2)"?
03:08:37 <ais523> for a silly example, let's say y=u², u=sin x; then we have dy/du=2u, du/dx = cos x
03:08:58 <ais523> then we just multiply them together and get 2u cos x = 2(sin x) cos x
03:09:08 <ais523> which is dy/dx in this case
03:09:11 <shachaf> Yes, I know that.
03:09:40 <ais523> the notation only works if you have one specific independent variable identified (in this case, x)
03:10:04 <ais523> d(x³)/d(x²) is meaningful if you treat x as the variable in question (it's d(x³)/dx ÷ d(x²)/dx)
03:10:35 <shachaf> I think it works in some other cases as well.
03:10:48 <ais523> and the way to think about dy (where y isn't your independent variable) is that it means "the value of y when x has a slightly higher value, minus the value of y right now"
03:11:04 <ais523> (where the "slightly higher value" would be x+dx)
03:11:37 <ais523> in the case where the derivative isn't continuous, "slightly higher" and "slightly lower" may give different results, but that's a case that's typically ignored at lower levels of maths
03:12:03 <ais523> anyway, the point is that you take limits, so you take the limit of the derivative as dx shrinks to 0
03:12:22 <shachaf> You know the thing people do -- I think we've talked about this before -- where they have "x^2 + y^2 = 1", and then "2 x dx + 2 y dy = 0", and then "dy/dx = -x/y"?
03:12:29 <ais523> but clearly, you have dy/du×du/dx=dy/dx while dx is positive, so you wouldn't expect it to change in the limit
03:12:50 <ais523> shachaf: yes, there are a bunch of rules for whether that's safe to do, and I'm not sure I've ever seen them written down
03:12:52 <shachaf> It's true that you can parameterize x and y in terms of some other variable, but it doesn't matter which one you use.
03:13:10 <ais523> in this case, I'd probably define x = cos t and y = sin t
03:13:51 <ais523> but the point is that the exact parameterization can matter, especially when multiple x correspond to a single y
03:13:54 <ais523> or vice versa
03:14:19 <shachaf> Can it?
03:14:22 <shachaf> What's an example where it matters?
03:14:48 <shachaf> Anyway, I was thinking of the chain rule in multidimensional cases, since the single-dimensional version loses some important content.
03:15:02 <ais523> basically, think of x²+y²=1 as a curve (in this case, a circle); in order to calculate things like dy/dx, you have to imagine a point moving along that circle, and dy/dx becomes the ratio of its y velocity to its x velocity
03:15:03 <shachaf> (dy/du * du/dx is really composition of linear maps, or multiplication of matrices; it's not commutative)
03:15:22 <ais523> obviously, it doesn't matter how fast it's moving (as long as it has nonzero speed) in the case of the circle
03:15:31 <ais523> but if you can imagine a more complex curve, say one that crosses itself
03:15:49 <ais523> the speed of the point is going to depend on which path it takes
03:16:03 <shachaf> So you're parameterizing everything in terms of time to make it work.
03:16:09 <ais523> a really degenerate example where the theory breaks down is 0xy=0
03:16:17 <ais523> you can find the derivative at any point to be anything there
03:16:51 <ais523> and sure, dividing by 0 is normally cheating, but you need a rigid set of rules to make sure you aren't doing it in any given case
03:17:13 <shachaf> One thing you can say is, the curve is defined by the zero set of f(x,y) = x^2 + y^2 - 1
03:17:23 <ais523> yep
03:17:40 <ais523> I think this sort of derivative shenanigans only works at points on the curve which have a unique tangent
03:17:41 <shachaf> And the derivative is defined by the zero set of Df(x,y)(dx,dy) = 2x dx + 2y dy
03:17:53 <shachaf> Or rather the derivative at each point
03:17:59 <ais523> and even then, you do have to uniquely define the point (which may involve specifying both x /and/ y, or using a third variable to parameterize)
03:18:16 <shachaf> I'm quite happy using both x and y
03:18:46 <shachaf> For example, even for the half-circle sqrt(1-x^2), "-y/x" is much nicer than "-sqrt(1-x^2)/x"
03:19:05 <shachaf> And also it works for a circle of any radius.
03:19:37 <ais523> right
03:19:53 <zzo38> Is easy what it mean, if you multiply dy/du by du/dx then the du are cancel out, it look like.
03:20:04 <ais523> actually I think what typically goes wrong with this approach isn't necessarily in the dx/dy manipulation itself, but in trying to write x or y in terms of each other when it isn't unique
03:20:12 <shachaf> zzo38: It look like, but is it actually?
03:20:43 <ais523> zzo38: right, the dx and dy symbols don't necessarily obey all the normal rules of mathematics, so you often have to prove any specific thing you can do with them separately
03:20:48 <ais523> but in this case they do follow normal rules
03:22:00 <shachaf> ais523: I'd like them to be something other than symbols.
03:22:08 <shachaf> For example sometimes people define them to be differential forms.
03:22:13 <pikhq> @metar kcos
03:22:14 <lambdabot> KCOS 050154Z 31008KT 4SM HZ OVC050 24/06 A3032 RMK AO2 SLP172 T02440056
03:22:17 <pikhq> :/
03:22:23 <shachaf> But that doesn't really work that well with the typical uses of Leibniz notation, I think.
03:22:34 <zzo38> ais523: I have read that the notations like d^2x and dx^2 don't follow the rules in the common way, but that it is possible to use the notation to mean something else to make it work, but then the second derivative is written in a more complicated way (although it is still d(dy/dx)/dx)
03:26:16 <zzo38> (I have made the figuring out of d(dy/dx)/dx by myself and confirmed what Penrose mentioned.)
03:26:18 <shachaf> zzo38: I worked it out in this channel once.
03:26:57 <shachaf> d(dy/dx)/dx = d^2y/dx^2 + dy/dx d^2x/dx^2
03:27:55 <zzo38> I worked it out on paper once but forget now what it is
03:28:15 <shachaf> What I said is what you get if you parameterize x and y in terms of t
03:28:34 <shachaf> And then treat "d(...)" as meaning "the derivative of ... with respect to t"
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04:05:22 <shachaf> relrod: helrod
04:14:38 <relrod> shachaf: hello
04:14:45 <relrod> my server just shat itself and I don't know why
04:15:10 <relrod> load average went through the roof, but it wasn't a DDoS or anything (no spike in net traffic, nothing useful in logs) :/
04:16:21 <ais523> relrod: it's likely either a scheduled maintenance task that rarely runs, or a trojan/virus
04:16:38 <ais523> you want something like top in order to see what's responsible for a high load average, not logs
04:16:52 <ais523> or it could be a legitimate program that got stuck in an infinite loop for some reason
04:18:33 <relrod> ais523: It's a Linux box, so I'd assume not trojan/virus. And I run the box... I haven't installed any new cronjobs recently or anything.
04:18:59 <ais523> relrod: the most common malware on Linux is from people brute-forcing your password, then installing it manually when they learn what it is
04:19:00 <relrod> So yeah it's likely a loop of some sort...but I was hoping something would have spit out something useful to a logfile
04:19:19 <ais523> Linux boxes are much more valuable targets to hackers than Windows boxed because Linux is a much more powerful OS
04:19:26 <shachaf> Was there disk I/O? High memory usage?
04:19:28 <ais523> but if it's a loop, the program responsible will show at the top of top
04:19:29 <shachaf> ais523: Huh?
04:19:30 <ais523> at 100% CPU usage
04:19:44 <shachaf> How is Linux more powerful?
04:20:01 <relrod> ais523: I only root login with key auth. So if it were a password attempt, they'd also need to know my username, and the (non-standard) port I run sshd on.
04:20:07 <ais523> shachaf: if you can run as root on Linux, it's fairly easy to do things like make a highly scalable spam cannon
04:20:09 <relrod> in which case it would be a *very* targeted attack
04:20:20 <relrod> only allow root login with key auth*
04:20:20 <ais523> that's harder on Windows, which is further from the metal
04:20:27 <shachaf> How do you mean?
04:20:38 <shachaf> Why do you need metal to make a cannon?
04:21:30 <relrod> shachaf: there was a spike in mem usage, but it didn't peak. https://elrod.me/collectd/bin/index.cgi?plugin=memory&timespan=86400&action=show_selection&ok_button=OK
04:21:45 <ais523> Linux is better for writing servers than home editions of Windows
04:22:05 <relrod> 23:19:28 < ais523> but if it's a loop, the program responsible will show at the top of top
04:22:08 <relrod> if I could've ssh'd into it, yes
04:22:11 <relrod> I had to force a reboot
04:22:14 <ais523> which have arbitrary restrictions that make them very bad at serving as servers
04:22:20 <relrod> I couldn't get into the box at all, on console or ssh
04:22:25 <shachaf> I don't know much about home editions of Windows. But I assume relrod's server isn't running that anyway.
04:23:03 <ais523> Linux has system calls like sendfile(2) which are designed for highly efficient network operations, whereas IIRC Windows can't do more than 4 network connections at once unless you pay Microsoft money to increase the limit
04:23:47 <ais523> relrod: kernel panic, perhaps? that would normally show in the logs, but sometimes it's something bad enough that the logs can't be saved to disk
04:23:54 <shachaf> relrod: you should give up and set up prometheus like fizzie did hth
04:24:00 <ais523> although that can't be the case if the graphs were collected by a usermode process on the machine
04:24:10 <relrod> ais523: well it was responding to pings (so net stack was still up), but that was about it.
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04:24:56 <relrod> ais523: I'm thinking some process just went crazy
04:25:34 <ais523> that shouldn't make it impossible to ssh in, and definitely shouldn't make it impossible to get in via the serial console
04:26:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53034&oldid=53023 * Dlosc * (+15) /* C */ Added Charcoal
04:26:49 <ais523> ooh, is someone finally documenting Charcoal?
04:27:01 <ais523> I figured out bits by reading the source, but it's still a really hard language to learn
04:27:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53035&oldid=50903 * Dlosc * (+151) Added note about Charcoal contributions
04:27:38 <pikhq> How many people actually have Windows 10 S though?
04:27:50 <pikhq> 10 S is the one with that limit, and it *also* has the limit you can only run Store apps.
04:28:02 <ais523> pikhq: oh, I thought it applied to regular Windows * Home too
04:28:10 <ais523> maybe that got removed at some point
04:29:06 <relrod> ais523: I mean, if a process was hammering both cores, everything else would get queued up, waiting for CPU time, right?
04:29:36 <relrod> which would explain SSH hanging, and the console not being able to throw me a login prompt
04:31:02 <pikhq> I think it might have been also in some of the "developing nations only" editions too.
04:31:40 <pikhq> Home omits some features, like Hyper-V, but doesn't have arbitrary limitations on the features it does have like that.
04:31:45 <relrod> I think it depends though. I've had work servers that nagios-alerted with ~400 load average before that still let me ssh in and kill the process that went to shit. *shrug*
04:32:09 <ais523> relrod: schedulers don't work like that, if a process is really hammering the CPUs, the kernel will make sure that other processes can get timeslices
04:32:23 <ais523> now, if a process is really hammering the /disk/, that can give Linux trouble, for reasons I don't fully understand
04:33:49 <ais523> pikhq: I looked it up, there's a limit of 10 or 20 (depending on edition) devices that can be connected to a single Windows machine, but that wording is vague and probably doesn't apply to all TCP connections
04:34:39 <pikhq> Oh, huh...
04:34:46 <pikhq> That's the limit on the *SMB server*.
04:35:10 <ais523> right, looking around various discussions on this
04:35:24 <pikhq> Which, humorously, is trivial to work around now.
04:35:32 <pikhq> Use Samba in WSL.
04:35:40 <ais523> I've gathered that a) that limit is related to SMB; b) inbound connections that don't use SMB or IIS are sometimes banned by license agreements but there's no technological block on them
04:36:15 <ais523> pikhq: OK, that's brilliant
04:36:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53036&oldid=53035 * Dlosc * (+66)
04:36:49 <pikhq> Which is provided on all versions of Windows that will run 64-bit Windows binaries.
04:37:05 <pikhq> (of up-to-date Windows 10, I should say)
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04:40:56 <oerjan> ais523: your polyglot challenge is up to 127 now
04:41:23 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, has it slowed down a bit then?
04:41:37 <ais523> or have I just failed to track the typical rate of growth mentally?
04:41:59 <ais523> any interesting new languages, or is it all just BF derivatives?
04:42:16 <oerjan> it seems to come in bursts, with several people posting shortly after each other, i assume they coordinate.
04:43:26 <oerjan> latest are: deltaplex, nhonhehr, gammaplex, C(clang), mycelium, monkeys, braincopter
04:43:42 <oerjan> *nhohnhehr
04:44:27 <oerjan> piet wasn't too long ago
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04:46:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brian and Chuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53037 * Dlosc * (+27) Redirected page to [[Brian & Chuck]]
04:47:17 <oerjan> and before that, they had a bunch of emoji languages
04:47:53 <\oren\> Hmm, I wonder how eso kOS is. Maybe it merits an wiki page?
04:48:12 <ais523> I'm reading the latest additions now
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06:40:10 <zzo38> I have the book of Pitman shorthand (from 1971). But, can we to make up a new system of shorthand can be theatre shorthand?
06:43:03 <zzo38> The intention of my idea of the theatre shorthand will be (among other things): [1] To write without having to look at the paper so much. [2] In addition to words, can also be record music.
06:52:51 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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07:29:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53038&oldid=53036 * Dlosc * (+137)
07:30:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53039&oldid=53038 * Dlosc * (+0) Alphabetized
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10:28:20 <b_jonas_> "<shachaf> ais523: It's annoying that Hearthstone card text doesn't describe behavior completely at all." => um sure. M:tG text doesn't either. that's why we have a separate Comprehensive Rules and Oracle Text document, each hundreds of pages long.
10:28:43 <b_jonas_> The rules are so big you can't reasonably fit them on the front of the cards.
10:30:48 <shachaf> For almost all cards, the card text and general rules understanding describes the behavior precisely.
10:30:58 <shachaf> For some special cases where you need extra rulings, those are mostly to disambiguate.
10:31:27 <b_jonas_> "<ais523> actually I think one of my favourite innovations is cards referring to themselves in first person" => why is that useful? couldn't it cause confusion because players also refer to themselves in first person when they describe an action. I'm not saying you should use full card names (or the part before comma) all the time, but M:tG also uses "this <property>" in indirect rules text and "this" in reminder text.
10:32:34 <shachaf> In Hearthstone there are cards with effects like "summon a random creature token of type X", where you don't even know what tokens of type X there are and what abilities they have without trying it out.
10:32:42 <shachaf> Or something like that, I don't know the details.
10:33:08 <b_jonas_> "<zzo38> Magic: the Gathering has text editing effects, which implies a AST anyways, even if nobody has ever written it down." => no, I totally disagree with that. The text editing effects are very limited, they only care about mentions of mana symbols and color words and subtypes (land and creature) in the card text, which just requires a few simple parameters of those types rather than a full AST.
10:37:56 <b_jonas_> zzo38: in particular, I'm not really convinced that it would be worth to specify M:tG in some abstract domain specific language tailored to M:tG. It could work, but I think it might be better to use a good generic programming language for implementing the rules, and not have it automatically linked to the English version of the rules.
10:38:30 <b_jonas_> (The English Comp Rules and Oracle versus the computer-readable code version could be maintained together, or separately one following the other as they are now.)
10:41:15 <shachaf> b_jonas_: I'd rather design a new game meant for this sort of system than use MTG
10:42:01 <b_jonas_> "<ais523> the chain rule [in calculus] makes intuitive sense if you see derivatives as limits of deltas" => it's easy to confuse yourself to think that the chain rule makes intuitive sense, but it's much harder to actually get an intuition that helps you figure out answers to more complicated applications, such as those involving multiple derivatives or more some crazier integral-fubini transforms
10:42:13 <b_jonas_> shachaf: same to you
10:42:51 <b_jonas_> also, there's like five different ways how people say the chain rule makes intuitive sense, and I've no idea how to connect those different intuitions.
10:43:35 <b_jonas_> sure, for simple problems, any of the intuitions work.
10:44:17 <shachaf> b_jonas_: All I was saying was, if you add types, there's only one way the chain rule can work.
10:44:42 <shachaf> If you say that for f : A -> B, Df : A -> (A -o B), where -o means a linear map
10:44:48 <shachaf> Then you just fit it all together
10:45:14 <shachaf> I guess some people would say something about the product of the Jacobian matrices or something.
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10:51:33 <b_jonas_> "<ais523> [home editions of Windows] have arbitrary restrictions that make them very bad at serving as servers" => and no good ports of C or C++ compiler toolkits or perl interpreters. it took some working on windows at my job to realize how REALLY TERRIBLE the C compiler situation is.
10:51:51 <ais523> strawberry perl is pretty good
10:53:04 <b_jonas_> (if Rust ever takes over, it won't be because it's a better language or has a better compiler, even though both of those are true, but because they're doing a lot of extra work to make sure all the infrastructure works on windows. and this might be a factor of the popularity of python and other high-level languages over C++, though I'm not sure about that.)
10:53:55 <b_jonas_> seriously. NOBODY HAS A GOOD FREE SOFTWARE PORT OF ANY GOOD C COMPILER TOOLKIT FOR WINDOWS X86_64. There are tons of ports, but each of them suck.
10:56:41 <b_jonas_> The root problem isn't that your existing C or C++ programs aren't portable, because libraries are missing. That's just a consequence of having no good C compiler toolkits, which is why existing mostly portable C or C++ libraries already don't get ported, and it's hard to develop entirely new C or C++ programs too.
10:57:45 <b_jonas_> Even libraries that get ported to BSD and Hurd and IBM's non-ASCII systems and VMS all sorts of crazy systems don't have a windows port, because it's such a suffering to continuously maintain C code for windows.
10:58:12 <APic> That is good.
10:58:13 <b_jonas_> (Windows does have some other advantages for a user, I know.)
10:58:33 <APic> That makes good Programmers go away from Winblows. 😎
11:02:16 <zseri> yes
11:03:29 <b_jonas_> "<zzo38> The intention of my idea of the theatre shorthand will be (among other things): [1] To write without having to look at the paper so much." => people just use stenography (shorthand typewriters) for that, I think
11:05:04 <b_jonas_> "<shachaf> I'd rather design a new game meant for this sort of system than use MTG" => ok
11:05:51 <b_jonas_> "<shachaf> b_jonas_: All I was saying was, if you add types, there's only one way the chain rule can work." => I don't think so. when you do third derivatives, you get small constant factors in your expressions that you can't figure out from just the types.
11:06:55 <b_jonas_> APic: good in what sense? it's not good for a programmer like me who has to suffer with stupid windows software because of this
11:07:22 <APic> Just stop working for a Company that forces You to use Windows?
11:07:54 <b_jonas_> APic: technically they only force me to develop products that will work on windows, but it's difficult either way
11:09:34 <APic> Life is generally not easy. ☺
11:11:02 <b_jonas_> yeah
11:11:30 <APic> And:
11:11:34 <APic> All Generalizations are false. 😉
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11:33:01 <shachaf> b_jonas_: Third derivatives? How do you mean?
11:42:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53040&oldid=53031 * Zseri * (+19) +new cast op equivalent
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12:35:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53041&oldid=53040 * Zseri * (+250) Operator Compat Levels
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13:11:54 <b_jonas_> shachaf: uh... let me look up the formulas online, I don't remember how they work. might involve some partial derivatives in multiple dimensions on a totally differentiable function where the symmetry of the order of derivatives causes the constants, or maybe something else was involved
13:12:12 <b_jonas_> shachaf: you already mentioned chain rule and second derivatives
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13:13:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_rule#Higher_derivatives and the constant factors of terms on the right hand side of equations
13:14:15 <b_jonas> as always, it's possible that you or ais are already good at calculus and all that stuff is still intuitively obvious to you, and it's just me who has the problem
13:21:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53042&oldid=53041 * Zseri * (-30) improve formatting of operator tables
13:23:43 <b_jonas> I still couldn't get used to some of this strange new interface in MS Word these days. So find and spellcheck aren't controlled by dialog boxes now, but instead by dockers. The main action buttons in those dialogs (find next, replace, replace all; skip, skip all, ignore, replace with selected word) do have underlined letters in them,
13:24:59 <b_jonas> but it wasn't obvious to figure out how you actually press the button with those shortcuts. The answer is, you have to first F6 to the docker (clicking on a buttom with the mouse doesn't activate that docker), then press the letter without modifiers.
13:25:40 <b_jonas> Alt+letter or alt+shift letter doesn't work even if that docker is selected, because it's not a dialog. Alt+letter will just activate the menu entry, which sort of makes sense, but alt+shift+letter doesn't seem to do anything,
13:26:25 <b_jonas> which goes against what I learned in all word, in which macro debugging was controlled by such a persistently active non-modal "docker" (actually an extra toolbar thingy) with underlined buttons and you had to press alt+shift+letter for its buttons (because alt+letter clashed with the menu).
13:28:03 <b_jonas> And I still think there's no way to figure out how the shit any of this keyboard contorl works from just the interface and help, unless you already have a lot of fucking experience-based intuition on how older more intuitive MS software works and try pressing a lot of random buttons (and make sure you have gigabytes of free RAM and make backups because trying random buttons has strange side effects).
13:32:15 <b_jonas> And even if you do figure it out, the interface is sometimes unintuitive. Example: you can toggle the ribbon bar as always visible or hidden, have ribbon bars with functions that you commonly use together, only one ribbon bar is shown at any one time, and if a ribbon bar was visible and you activate a new one, the new one will stay visible. Good so far.
13:33:38 <b_jonas> The buttons and other controls on ribon bars have the equivalent of menu shortcuts, these shortcuts are one or two letters, and they're per ribbon bar. Still good. The shortcuts within a ribbon bar are distinct form the shortcuts of different ribbon bars (top-level menu entries), which implies you get a lot of really strange and too long shortcuts, BUT
13:34:35 <b_jonas> you can't just press alt plus the shortcut of a ribbon bar button, despite that it seems like you can, no, each time you have to press the shortcut of the ribbon bar (with alt or f10) and then the shortcut of the particular control, even if the ribbon bar is already fucking active and visible.
13:35:26 <b_jonas> This is just one example of lots of basically good innovated design messed up by stupid small things like that.
13:36:41 <b_jonas> (I also hate the Hungarian localized interface with a passion no matter when I use it, continuiously ever since those eixst. Just stop localizing any of the fucking interface to Hungarian.)
13:38:46 <b_jonas> (But luckily these days it's easier to get software with the original English localized interface than it used to when you'd have Hungarian Winword on two floppies and that was it. I even looked up the magical incantations for telling Firefox to use the English interface. Its default is to use the default localization of Windows, and I did download the English language pack for Firefox, but even then it wouldn't automatically choose that.)
13:44:05 <b_jonas> (sorry for all the rant)
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14:07:45 <b_jonas> Oh by the way, in case this is new to other people. Windows 10 does have a multiple virtual desktop thing built in, wherein you can group windows to multiple "virtual desktop" and quickly switch between desktop to show those windows and hide most others. In windows 7 you need extra software for that, although that might still be useful for windows 10 because of a better interface.
14:08:03 <b_jonas> I hadn't known this before, because the feature is somewhat well hidden in the windows 10 interface.
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14:16:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53043&oldid=53042 * Zseri * (+251) Computational class
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15:08:13 <picoder_> Hi, has anyone tried to optimize the graham scan by modifying the actual algorith?
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16:08:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53044&oldid=52875 * Zayne * (+38) /* Examples */
16:13:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53045&oldid=53044 * Zayne * (+123)
16:41:19 <int-e> this session will be full... (will include ICFP contest ceremony...)
16:43:05 <int-e> @tell oerjan please define "broken"
16:43:05 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:48:49 <int-e> @tell oerjan in general I find it very hard to not simply ignore reports that tell me that something is broken without explaining how.
16:48:49 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:49:15 <b_jonas> int-e: nice! will Endo be present?
16:49:20 * APic grins magically.
16:49:39 <int-e> b_jonas: I don't know.
16:50:05 <int-e> there's a couple of talks first
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16:52:05 <\oren\> b_jonas: hmm, now I'm wondering how different countries compare, if you asked people there "do you prefer to use most software in English or in your native language?"
16:52:44 <int-e> b_jonas: did Endo's planet even have trees and rivers?
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16:55:49 <\oren\> i guess you'd have to somehow correct for differences in English knowledge between countries
16:59:20 <\oren\> but there might be a crossover point where a country's population knows enough english that they will prefer the English interface to a badly localized version
16:59:40 <b_jonas> int-e: dunno, but I think there his transformed form has definitely affected a tree and river.
17:00:05 <b_jonas> (recall that endo's DNS affects its environment more directly than ours)
17:04:09 <shachaf> b_jonas: I see.
17:32:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: My idea specifies the cards (and some of, but not all of, the rules) in a domain specific language, although it does not have to be one specific to M:tG, and might be usable with other kind of card games too. But it should be one close enough to be able to do alterable AST (whether it is an interpreter and alters it directly, or is compiled and figures out what it needs to compile in order to allow the alterations to be implemented to do t
17:33:12 <zzo38> Does this make sense? Or maybe I missed something
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18:21:24 <shachaf> `olist 1096
18:21:25 <HackEgo> olist 1096: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:41:35 <mroman> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biproportional_apportionment <- how the fuck can this work
18:41:38 <mroman> if I have 6 seats
18:41:51 <mroman> hm. no
18:41:59 <mroman> if I have 2 seats to give
18:42:05 <mroman> and I have the votes 200, 200, 200
18:42:18 <mroman> how can there be a divisor such that the rounded sum yields 2?
18:42:25 <mroman> either 200 / divisor is 0 or it is 0
18:42:31 <mroman> meaning the sum of seats will either be 3 or 0
18:42:34 <mroman> but it can never be 2?
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18:52:45 <doesthiswork> I see we're a shrub now
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19:28:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Raumaankidwai * New user account
19:29:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53046&oldid=53022 * Raumaankidwai * (+275)
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20:18:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53047 * Raumaankidwai * (+5268) Created page with "'''Cubestate''' is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:Raumaankidwai]]. '''Cubestate''' (or '''cubestate''') programs are based on sequences of moves on Rubik's Cu..."
20:19:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53048&oldid=53047 * Raumaankidwai * (+6)
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20:20:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53049&oldid=53048 * Raumaankidwai * (+202)
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20:55:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53050&oldid=53049 * Zseri * (-254) improve formatting
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22:20:28 <zseri> bye
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22:31:49 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like pumpernickel bread?
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23:52:53 <oerjan> @wii int-e
23:52:53 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/int-e_
23:52:57 <oerjan> argh
23:53:19 <oerjan> @messages-loud
23:53:19 <lambdabot> int-e said 7h 10m 13s ago: please define "broken"
23:53:19 <lambdabot> int-e said 7h 4m 29s ago: in general I find it very hard to not simply ignore reports that tell me that something is broken without explaining how.
23:53:29 <oerjan> @hoogle a -> a
23:53:29 <lambdabot> Prelude id :: a -> a
23:53:29 <lambdabot> Data.Function id :: a -> a
23:53:29 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a
23:55:18 <oerjan> @tell int-e Broken as in even @hoogle a -> a wasn't working yesterday.
23:55:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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23:56:04 <wob_jonas> fuck! is there some simple way to remove a rust stain from a cheap polypropilene box with rough surface?
23:56:19 <oerjan> dynamite hth
23:56:39 <wob_jonas> I stored a throwaway standalone scraper blade in it, and I didn't realize the blade was made from a non-rustproof iron
23:56:39 <oerjan> may also remove other things.
23:57:28 <oerjan> i'm sorry, my chemistry is rusty
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2017-09-06
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00:08:02 <wob_jonas> at least I have found the rest of the pack of the same type of scrapers after some searching
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00:20:31 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> b_jonas: My idea specifies the cards (and some of, but not all of, the rules) in a domain specific language, [...] one close enough to be able to do alterable AST" => it does totally make sense, and it would probably work, and it's possible that it's the best way, but I think it's probably easier to not do that, and use a general purpose p
00:20:31 <wob_jonas> rogramming language and write the rules and cards in it.
00:26:17 <wob_jonas> Internet search says (besides various advertisment sites and answers to questions other than mine) try acidic cleaning agent. I'll try a mild one, it probably won't work, but won't hurt either.
00:26:37 <wob_jonas> Apart from that, just buy a new plastic box and throw this one away.
00:41:37 <wob_jonas> brilliant. the webpage says their phone number is “06 80 353 353 (06 40 FKF FKF)”. from context I think the first one is right, and the one in the parenthesis is a typo, but I'm not sure.
00:42:13 <wob_jonas> ah good, later on the same webpage it says “06 80 353 353 (06 80 FKF FKF)” so that's more votes on the first number
00:44:43 <wob_jonas> ah. actually both of those numbers are correct and ring at them.
00:47:34 <wob_jonas> great! organic acid cleaning agent did seem to help. I removed most of the dust. some remains, but I did expect that.
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01:00:33 <ais523> rust and polypropylene are sufficiently chemically different that you'd imagine some cleaning agent exists that can clean one from the other
01:06:19 <oerjan> @hoogle a -> a
01:06:20 <lambdabot> Prelude id :: a -> a
01:06:20 <lambdabot> Data.Function id :: a -> a
01:06:20 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a
01:06:24 <oerjan> still not broken
01:13:08 <alercah> ais523: I misread as rust and polymorphism and thought you were talking about programming
01:13:54 <ais523> the end of the sentence must have been fairly confusing then ;-)
01:17:21 <alercah> indeed
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01:41:24 <imode> why am I in a shrub.
01:57:06 <oerjan> imode: Ni!
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08:12:53 <b_jonas> "<alercah> ais523: I misread as rust and polymorphism" lol
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08:15:06 <b_jonas> ais523: some solvent must work, sure. the non-obvious part was if there's some househole agent that I can use safely (so not eg. natrium hidroxyde or some such cleaner) and simple enough to use to be worth for some cheap plastic thingy (as opposed to something expensive to replace like a window frame).
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08:20:44 <oerjan> `? windows
08:20:53 <HackEgo> windows? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
08:21:20 <oerjan> `? frame
08:21:21 <HackEgo> A frame is just a complete Heyting algebra. Frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication, if you know what I mean.
08:21:40 <oerjan> `? locale
08:21:41 <HackEgo> Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
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10:18:41 <b_jonas> you know, I asked many time for a numerical multi-dimensional maximizer function other than the ones in GSL? apparently recent versions of OpenCV have one. I'm sure this wasn't there in older versions.
10:20:40 <int-e> @hoogle a -> a
10:20:40 <lambdabot> Prelude id :: a -> a
10:20:41 <lambdabot> Data.Function id :: a -> a
10:20:41 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a
10:21:06 <int-e> @tell oerjan @hoogle not responding at all is strange indeed, but I have no clue why; no suspicious OOM kills, and it's running locally; maybe an IO bottleneck and resulting timeout... how would one diagnose this
10:21:06 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:21:42 <int-e> > 1
10:21:45 <lambdabot> 1
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10:34:54 <fizzie> b_jonas: There's also http://dlib.net/optimization.html (don't know this firsthand, but remember having come across it somewhere)
10:39:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: let me look at that
10:40:05 <b_jonas> I'll look at it later, thanks for mentioning it, I haven't heard of that library yet
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11:19:44 <b_jonas> oh dear. they're printing an eighth Jace card
11:23:55 <myname> druid?
11:25:03 <b_jonas> huh what? no, Jace is definitely not a druid
11:41:43 <shachaf> droid?
11:46:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: no. Karn might be a droid
11:48:33 <b_jonas> also, they're printing another hive land, which could be useful for some decks, like five-color sliver decks that already run only crazy lands and have four Ancient Ziggurats and four of that sliver land thing already ,
11:48:45 <b_jonas> or the spirit deck I'm trying to build
11:52:36 <shachaf> creatures you control have sliver. creatures your opponents control lose sliver and can't have or gain sliver.
11:53:11 <APic> 😎
11:56:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: we don't have those together, but we have the two separately
11:57:49 <b_jonas> and for quite cheap too, namely Shields of Velis Vel for the first one and Ego Erasure for the latter
11:58:57 <b_jonas> these are just about the only defense you can use against when a good sliver decks plays Crystalline Sliver unless it plays that very early
11:59:49 <b_jonas> the other possible defense is mass creature removal, but that only works if you build your deck in such a way that it can recover from that faster than the sliver deck, which is not so easy
12:00:08 <b_jonas> whereas Ego Erasure and Shields of Velis Vel don't require much of a build around
12:02:10 <b_jonas> there's also some early defense you can do, which you need to have before the Crystalline comes out, like counterspells and similar
12:03:12 <b_jonas> there's also Hivestone for the former by the way
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15:27:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53051&oldid=53050 * Raumaankidwai * (-349)
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17:25:39 <\oren\> oh shit, sint maarten is fucked
17:29:03 <\oren\> Barbuda is probably annihilated
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18:15:33 <\oren\> "Disgraced pharmaceutical CEO Martin Shkreli claims to have Hillary Clinton’s DNA and has threatened to clone her in a bizarre series of Facebook posts. "
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2017-09-07
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02:58:56 <oerjan> @messages-loud
02:58:56 <lambdabot> int-e said 16h 37m 50s ago: @hoogle not responding at all is strange indeed, but I have no clue why; no suspicious OOM kills, and it's running locally; maybe an IO bottleneck and resulting timeout...
02:58:56 <lambdabot> how would one diagnose this
02:59:15 <oerjan> @tell it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions.
02:59:16 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:59:19 <oerjan> oops
02:59:26 <oerjan> @tell incomprehensibly it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions.
02:59:26 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:59:29 <oerjan> argh
02:59:38 <oerjan> @tell int-e it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions.
02:59:38 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
03:00:12 <oerjan> @tell incomprehensibly ...tab completion error.
03:00:12 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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03:41:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Drawkcab]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53052&oldid=52138 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) C++ ----> ++C
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08:07:16 <int-e> oerjan: uh, weird
08:07:45 <int-e> am I to conclude that the command line hoogle is not deterministic?
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08:37:10 <oerjan> int-e: well it wasn't on that day, anyway.
08:37:47 <shachaf> It's good enough if it's deterministic some of the time.
08:38:16 <shachaf> (This was acknowledging oerjan's joke, not missing it and then making the same joke.)
08:57:48 <int-e> oerjan: I don't know anything tangible that changed between then and now
08:59:19 <int-e> (nor did I actually observe the behavior you describe, but that's a smaller issue)
09:06:23 <oerjan> hm perhaps i should paste my log
09:07:38 <oerjan> 08:35 =oerjan> @hoogle a->a
09:07:38 <oerjan> 08:35 =lambdabot> package base
09:07:38 <oerjan> 08:35 =lambdabot> package bytestring
09:07:38 <oerjan> 08:35 =lambdabot> package containers
09:08:08 <oerjan> int-e: it gave the same response to every type i tried
09:09:08 <oerjan> this "worked" though:
09:09:10 <oerjan> 08:34 =oerjan> @hoogle f::(a->b)->(a,c)->(b,c)
09:09:10 <oerjan> 08:34 =lambdabot> Formatting.ShortFormatters f :: Real a => Int -> Format r (a -> r)
09:09:13 <oerjan> 08:34 =lambdabot> Turtle.Format f :: Format r (Double -> r)
09:09:16 <oerjan> 08:34 =lambdabot> Debug.SimpleReflect.Vars f :: FromExpr a => a
09:09:24 <int-e> hmm
09:09:29 <int-e> @hoogle a -> a
09:09:29 <lambdabot> Prelude id :: a -> a
09:09:29 <lambdabot> Data.Function id :: a -> a
09:09:29 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a
09:09:32 <int-e> @hoogle a->a
09:09:32 <lambdabot> package base
09:09:32 <lambdabot> package bytestring
09:09:32 <lambdabot> package containers
09:09:38 <int-e> some parsing problem
09:09:42 <oerjan> huh
09:09:55 <oerjan> shachaf: false alarm, it was deterministic anyhow
09:10:30 <int-e> I'll try a newer hoogle version soonish, though it may have to wait until october
09:10:35 <oerjan> oh hm
09:11:07 <oerjan> @hoogle a
09:11:07 <lambdabot> Text.Blaze.Html4.FrameSet a :: Html -> Html
09:11:07 <lambdabot> Text.Blaze.Html4.Strict a :: Html -> Html
09:11:07 <lambdabot> Text.Blaze.Html4.Transitional a :: Html -> Html
09:11:25 <oerjan> int-e: maybe it simply treats everything without a space as an ident
09:11:34 <oerjan> @hoogle Int
09:11:35 <lambdabot> Prelude data Int
09:11:35 <lambdabot> module Data.Int
09:11:35 <lambdabot> Data.Int data Int
09:11:54 <int-e> @hoogle a ->a
09:11:55 <lambdabot> Prelude id :: a -> a
09:11:55 <lambdabot> Data.Function id :: a -> a
09:11:55 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a
09:11:58 <int-e> (not quite)
09:12:42 <int-e> anyway, this is Hoogle 5.0.9
09:13:40 <int-e> 5.0.13 apparently fixes this
09:13:45 <oerjan> aha
09:14:07 <int-e> https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/issues/219
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09:15:52 <int-e> so let's just try installing the new version
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09:23:39 <int-e> @hoogle a->a
09:23:40 <lambdabot> Prelude id :: a -> a
09:23:40 <lambdabot> Data.Function id :: a -> a
09:23:40 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a
09:25:26 <int-e> so what is the significance of those 'package' results (if they are results at all...)?
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09:42:48 <Hooloovo0> a -> a
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10:30:08 <b_jonas> lol. today's first SMBC cracks me up http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/pictograms
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10:39:19 <Hooloovo0> that's not even a chimp
10:40:06 <Hooloovo0> I guess it could be a very stylized one but pls
10:41:16 <Taneb> Hooloovo0, are you accusing Zach Weinersmith of being able to draw and choosing not to
10:41:57 <Hooloovo0> um
10:42:02 <Hooloovo0> sure
10:42:16 <Hooloovo0> thought it was a gorilla at first
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11:48:06 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: I think misrepresenting the visual appearance of chimps is a noble tradition from Irregular Webcomic.
11:48:11 <b_jonas> But yes, it doesn't look like a chimp.
11:50:09 <Hooloovo0> us that a meme?
11:50:38 <Hooloovo0> in the more technical sense o the term, that is
11:50:52 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: maybe just a callback
11:51:01 <Hooloovo0> ah, ok
11:51:24 <b_jonas> but more likely it's not intentional at all, only I'm connecting it, and Zach just doesn't care too much about drawing accurately as long as he can get the meaning through
11:51:47 <b_jonas> they're just funny comic strips, not some hard sci-fi stories
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14:17:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Therrore * New user account
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18:26:41 <mroman> evening lads
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18:32:36 <shachaf> `5 w
18:32:42 <HackEgo> 1/2:brevity//syn. "shortness" \ iwc//iwc contains puns! Puns galore! Puns after puns after puns! Also science! \ cocoon//Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse. \ it'//It's written with an apostrophe. \ `fetch//`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It
18:32:46 <shachaf> `n
18:32:46 <HackEgo> 2/2: is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
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19:06:35 <\oren\> ok, I think I'm getting to the bottom of this
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19:13:59 <\oren\> AAAAUAAUAGHH it froze again
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20:15:34 <wob_jonas> hi guys
20:16:41 <wob_jonas> \oren\: bottom of what, and what froze? a drink?
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20:17:50 <wob_jonas> how are you all today?
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20:31:11 <mroman> ah rats
20:31:42 <mroman> battey went out during creation of my recovery stick.
20:31:48 <mroman> 3h wasted.
20:32:02 <mroman> and this keyboard can't really tolerate fast writing.
20:32:11 <mroman> *typing
20:32:35 <mroman> but it'll do for travelling I guess
20:34:10 <wob_jonas> mroman: whoa, what keyboard is that? Is it some really old device like a ZX Spectrum? Or some of this fancy modern software like Windows or mobile phone stuff that runs on fast modern hardware but still manages to have reaction times so slow that your keypresses appear on screen only a second later?
20:34:36 <wob_jonas> (Not that I haven't seen that happen on Linux too, but it's still certain bad software that causes that.)
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20:35:04 <wob_jonas> Anything in between can easily tolerate much faster writing than basically any human can manage.
20:36:14 <wob_jonas> I guess technically there's also old slow modems with a low communication throughput limit, and old typewriter terminals where the mechanics of the printer limit the speed, but even most of those are fast enough for typical human typing.
20:37:58 <mroman> wob_jonas: It's a mini notebook
20:38:03 <mroman> fairly modern.
20:38:18 <wob_jonas> probably a software problem then
20:38:27 <wob_jonas> unless your typing has to go through network without local echo
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20:39:50 <mroman> Im' probably not usde to hit this hard
20:40:07 <mroman> and my timing si probably of because hte distance between keys is'nt exaclty thes ame anymore
20:40:23 <mroman> but this si waht it look like if i try to type fash
20:40:43 <mroman> It's a very narrow keyboard.
20:41:40 <wob_jonas> my typing gets bad when I'm angry and doing heated debate flames on internet. you can sometimes see that on IRC, even on this channel. it doesn't quite look like that though.
20:42:30 <mroman> https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Medion-Akoya-E2215T-Convertible.188012.0.html <- a version of this one.
20:42:50 <wob_jonas> also, funnily, I have difficulty typing slowly. I think it's the centipede problem: I can type English just fine when I do it at the usual fast speed, but when I try to slow down to pay attention to the individual keypresses, I get all confused and forget how to type.
20:43:14 <wob_jonas> If I try to think of where each individual letter key is, I can only tell that very slowly, even though I press those letters in normal typing easily.
20:43:24 <mroman> that's normal.
20:43:40 <mroman> it happens with pin codes for debit cards etc. as well
20:43:57 <wob_jonas> And passwords of other sorts, yes.
20:44:22 <wob_jonas> I also have difficulty walking slowly, or also walking anything between my two habitual walking paces, the normal fast one and a slower one.
20:44:42 <wob_jonas> They differ in movement, not only speed, which is why I can't just interpolate between.
20:45:14 <wob_jonas> (The slower pace is also slightly more difficult than the faster pace, at least dexterity wise, not necessarily in energy use.)
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20:45:49 <wob_jonas> wtf. they reskinned the library search webpage of FSzEK.
20:46:22 <wob_jonas> now it has these input boxes with custom borders, not just ordinary browser input controls with the height forced too small
20:47:06 <wob_jonas> I don't understand that stupid fashion. Even Wikipedia bought into it with checkboxes. I have just fine form controls in my fucking browser, there's no need to reimplement them with something worse.
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20:48:04 <wob_jonas> (At least the custom input boxes usually only differ in appearance, they still use the browser's normal text input. It's much worse when a websites reimplements even the behaviour of control, much worse than the browser.)
20:58:43 <mroman> nope
20:58:52 <mroman> YOU NEED JAVASCRIPT FORM CONTROLS
20:59:31 <mroman> Because they don't offer any functionality browsers implemented over the years
20:59:47 <mroman> such as remembering what you entered when you press backwards or F5
21:01:38 <wob_jonas> F5? wtf. you press alt-down to bring up the history dropdown. but the javascript implementations also do remember what you typed and offer suggestions, but often with a worse interface, and sometimes in a way that both the browser's dropdown and the custom one appears at the same time and conflict with each other when you try to choose an entry fro
21:01:38 <wob_jonas> m either dropdown.
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21:02:36 <wob_jonas> You press F5 for reloading the page. Or control-R. Either works in all current browsers, the two different shortcuts originate from some difference in two popular competing browsers ages ago.
21:03:59 <wob_jonas> That's also why you enter the address bar with either control-L (which straight up activates it) or F6 (which cycles between the webpage, the address bar, and the sidebar in typical Windows fashion).
21:04:30 <shachaf> hob_jonas
21:04:37 <wob_jonas> hi shachaf
21:04:47 <shachaf> My old laptop's keyboard would send F6 if you pressed three keys simultaneously.
21:04:51 <shachaf> I think it was either hjk or jkl
21:05:07 <wob_jonas> I have a crazy idea, related to esolang community
21:07:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: strangely, some keyboards or software start autorepeating a sequence of multiple letters if you hold down multiple letter keys long enough, so you get something like eg. "hkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkj". I could do it with even six letters in some configuration. This seems new to the last five years, and I don't understand why any
21:07:05 <wob_jonas> hw or sw would do that. Why would it autorepeat more than one key?
21:07:36 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Well, touchpads and touchscreens are now "multitouch"
21:07:42 <shachaf> So it makes sense to extend the same to keyboards.
21:08:05 <wob_jonas> Also, some keyboards just omit a key if you press certain combinations of too many keys at the same time and at least two of them aren't shift keys, but this is sort of an understandable limitation of the electronic wiring.
21:08:32 <mroman> f5 is refresh in pretty much all browsers.
21:08:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: typing all letters once when you press the keys simultaneously does make sense. It's autorepeating more than two that doesn't make sense to me.
21:08:49 <wob_jonas> mroman: yes, that's what I said
21:09:34 <mroman> this notebook actually has touchscreen as well
21:09:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: in particular, I used a workstation where I couldn't type leftshift+capslock+backtick, which is where "Í" is assigned on my strange keyboard layout. Luckily that's a rare letter.
21:10:43 <mroman> but the keyboard is definitely a negative point.
21:11:07 <wob_jonas> saner keyboards and software, like this home machine I'm using now, doesn't do either. it allows basically any number of keys simultaneously, and doesn't try to autorepeat multiple keys at the same time
21:11:37 <wob_jonas> mroman: um, the keyboard is a negative point in that notebook in what sense?
21:11:49 <mroman> it's not sensitive enough.
21:12:08 <mroman> you can tap certain keys and they go down without registering a keystroke
21:12:14 <wob_jonas> (also, touchscreens for ordinary computers, eww, I hate those)
21:12:28 <mroman> so you need to press firmer and hold the key down a bit longer than on other keyboards.
21:12:42 <mroman> meaning typing at 120WPM really sucks with this keyboard.
21:12:54 <wob_jonas> (there's certain reasons to use it for some special applications, like in publically accessable terminals that anyone can access. even there I don't like them, but I admit they have some advantages.)
21:13:03 <mroman> by which I mean: you can't type over 80WPM on this keyboard.
21:13:24 <wob_jonas> mroman: "can tap certain keys and they go down without registering a keystroke" ouch. a keyboard shouldn't do that.
21:13:37 <wob_jonas> that's like mechanical typewriters
21:14:02 <wob_jonas> plug in an external keyboard as a workaround
21:14:26 <mroman> I think it only registers it if you press down exactly in the middle
21:14:41 <wob_jonas> that's even worse
21:14:48 <mroman> if I press on the corner it won't register anything.
21:15:06 <wob_jonas> how did you get that notebook? did your job lend it to you for work?
21:15:17 <mroman> I bought it in a store.
21:15:24 <mroman> For 200 bucks.
21:15:34 <mroman> so it's a really cheap one.
21:15:38 <wob_jonas> what does the keyboard feel like physically? is it like cheap normal computer keyboards, or horrible rubber keys, or something else?
21:16:12 <mroman> like a regular notebook keyboard.
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21:18:33 <mroman> And there's like 10GB usable space
21:18:38 <mroman> clerk said there's 20GB
21:18:43 <wob_jonas> ah
21:19:18 <wob_jonas> is the storage device 20 GB but filled with 10 GB of junk that comes with the system installation or later automatic downloads and caches and temporary files and log files?
21:23:24 <mroman> need to analyse that first
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21:23:48 <wob_jonas> fdisk
21:24:16 <wob_jonas> unless it has tricky firmware hiding some of the storage, in which case it's much harder
21:24:34 <mroman> yeah
21:24:42 <mroman> this shit should be regulated
21:26:05 <wob_jonas> what shit? shipping mobile phones with software full of security hole, even when they aren't deliberate holes for bad reasons but just plain bad development, with updates that make the original android OS even worse, and with no support for downstream security updates later, or no support at all half a year after people buy the phone model?
21:26:16 <wob_jonas> or false advertisment?
21:26:28 <mroman> it's a windows
21:26:43 <mroman> but bundling products with crap should be regulated yes
21:26:56 <mroman> like pre-installing useless crapware
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21:27:12 <mroman> or stuff like anti-virus products that can't be uninstalled
21:28:01 <mroman> I'd actually be in favor of prohibiting pre-installing anything EXCEPT the OS
21:28:43 <mroman> it's just a scam to push useless software to unknowing customers.
21:29:18 <wob_jonas> windows might be the same, I'm just less familiar with it than the android crap
21:30:18 <wob_jonas> luckily mostly only from other people's devices and second hand accounts. so far I've managed to avoid owning any of this smartphone stuff myself, and even my next phone, which I'll probably buy within a year, will be a non-smartphone
21:30:36 <wob_jonas> (I like my current phone, but electronics does age)
21:31:28 <wob_jonas> (Also now I want more realiability, so with how long this one lives, I might actually buy a new one BEFORE it breaks down or gets stolen, to avoid even a day of downtime.
21:31:29 <wob_jonas> )
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21:33:38 <mroman> meh
21:33:48 <mroman> It'll do the job.
21:33:57 <mroman> but I already have a normal notebook
21:34:14 <mroman> so I didn't want to invest 1200CHF to buy a good mini notebook
21:34:23 <mroman> I just bought the cheapest one they had :D
21:35:38 <wob_jonas> sure, I understand not wanting to buy something more expensive. that's why I specifically said external keyboard as workaround, because that's both cheap and simple
21:35:54 <mroman> no space fo external keyboard :)
21:35:55 <wob_jonas> there's a huge market of external keyboards with lots of variation. obviously most of it is crap.
21:36:07 <wob_jonas> but keyboards are easier to test in shops than notebooks.
21:36:23 <wob_jonas> no space? like, holding the notebook in your lap on a train?
21:36:36 <mroman> backpack
21:36:39 <mroman> but yes
21:36:45 <mroman> this is going to be my travel notebook
21:36:49 <wob_jonas> I see
21:37:13 <mroman> my backpack is now complete and ready
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21:37:34 <mroman> a bit on the heavy side though
21:37:35 <wob_jonas> I remember when I was traveling to the airport in Sweden this year, by train. The train had nice tables between the seats. Three people sat together with me, and all three were busy apparently working on a large notebook each.
21:37:53 <mroman> but temperatures are anywhere from -15 to +35C here
21:37:53 <wob_jonas> They didn't seem to know each other, so it looked as if everyone independently chose to work on the train.
21:38:02 <mroman> so I had to pack winter stuff as well
21:38:16 <wob_jonas> (Only the ones sitting close to me though, not everyone else on the train.)
21:39:07 <mroman> after my MRI I'm probably going to vanish for some time
21:39:10 <wob_jonas> When I travel within Hungary, I don't often see large notebooks. I see people pushing the touchscreen on tiny smartphone displays, with often a broken display.
21:39:18 <mroman> unless the MRI actually shows something.
21:39:38 <wob_jonas> I saw a girl with a nintendo DS on the bus at one point, it stuck in my memory because it was so unusual.
21:39:38 <mroman> but I don't have the will to go from doc to doc anymore.
21:39:46 <wob_jonas> vanish where?
21:39:58 <mroman> I don't know.
21:40:02 <wob_jonas> ...
21:40:04 <wob_jonas> that sounds scary
21:40:12 <mroman> That's why I packed for every temperatue range.
21:40:13 <wob_jonas> you don't want to get yourself committed, do you?
21:40:21 <wob_jonas> is it just some vacation?
21:40:31 <wob_jonas> an extended vacation that is?
21:40:37 <wob_jonas> you want to leave the environment of your normal home?
21:41:35 <mroman> I don't know.
21:41:46 <wob_jonas> even more scary
21:41:49 <wob_jonas> I'm worried
21:41:52 <mroman> Well
21:42:06 <mroman> what are you supposed to do otherwise?
21:42:18 <wob_jonas> I don't know
21:42:25 <mroman> scary.
21:42:27 <wob_jonas> and I don't know your circumstances
21:42:56 <wob_jonas> I can enjoy vanishing for a vacation, but only for two weeks or so
21:43:03 <wob_jonas> some people do it for much longer
21:43:24 <mroman> I'm basically ill 3/4 of the time
21:43:27 <mroman> like influenza ill
21:43:31 <mroman> but it's not influenza
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21:43:50 <mroman> so I have very reduced capacity to actually do stuff
21:44:02 <wob_jonas> someone from our school had enough of everything at some point and suddenly vanished into Nepal, herding yaks on a bicycle or something, and returned a year later. or something. that's a bit distorted version of the rumour, but still.
21:44:06 <mroman> which means rather poor quality of life
21:44:16 <wob_jonas> yeah, I also have that, but not that badly
21:44:31 <wob_jonas> slightly ill all the time, seriously ill twice a year, reduced work capacity during
21:45:02 <wob_jonas> just took a four month long leave from work, but didn't really vanish, not from work, not from my family or the internet
21:45:11 <wob_jonas> (not for longer than a week at once at least)
21:45:39 <wob_jonas> I'm too stressed, and also don't do enough sports and healthy eating and all that stuff, and it's a self-reinforcing bad cycle
21:45:56 <mroman> also preinstalled software is usually demo 30 days
21:45:59 <wob_jonas> after a while I get overweight, which makes my health worse, my future health expectations much worse, but also makes it more difficult to break the habits and do more sports
21:46:03 <mroman> but it's not removed after 30 days
21:46:08 <mroman> like mcaffee
21:46:15 <mroman> it'll consume ressources even after that
21:46:18 <wob_jonas> it's seriously worrying me, but hard to change
21:46:21 <mroman> and that should be even more illegal.
21:46:34 <wob_jonas> so be careful
21:46:38 <mroman> I can barely work
21:46:55 <wob_jonas> I hope at least you also do have a family supporting you, and that you don't vanish from them at least
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21:46:59 <mroman> It's like I only have 20% of my cognitive potential avalable
21:47:05 <mroman> yeah no
21:47:10 <wob_jonas> as in, keep a mobile phone
21:47:12 <mroman> no family suppoting me
21:47:21 <mroman> weird relationship
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21:47:53 <wob_jonas> yes, my memory and mind is getting worse. that's the really scary part, from the inside even more so than from the outside I think, because my family and coworkers can see how I'm fat and unhealthy and can't work as much, but I see that and also how I can't think normally
21:48:15 <wob_jonas> I'm not saying my family isn't a "weird relationship", but their support still means a lot for me
21:48:29 <wob_jonas> if you have no family, then you should strive to make one, even if they're not blood relations
21:48:35 <wob_jonas> but friends
21:48:56 <mroman> I can hardly look my parents in the eyes
21:49:02 <mroman> and sometimes I can't talk to them
21:49:11 <mroman> as in: selective mutism can't talk
21:49:26 <wob_jonas> original family is great default in some cases, but I mostly care about them too because they care about me, all they did for me in the past when they were younger and more able to help, but also how they always try support me now as much as they can
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21:49:58 <mroman> and I can't be comitted :D
21:50:09 <mroman> theoretically yes
21:50:12 <mroman> practically no
21:50:23 <wob_jonas> that... can be difficult. I hope they can work it around. my mother always seems to somehow correctly guess most of what happens to me, even if I try to not tell everything. it's hard to prove, but I think he has some secret superpowers.
21:50:31 <wob_jonas> (the rest of my family doesn't have that)
21:51:14 <wob_jonas> I hope you at least have enough money to be able to support yourself for a break from work while you regenerate yourself
21:51:22 <mroman> my last clinic stay gave me PTSD
21:51:23 <mroman> so
21:51:26 <wob_jonas> I simply couldn't keep up working all the time
21:51:40 <mroman> they'd have a _really_ hard time keeping me there.
21:52:09 <wob_jonas> mroman: wait, so you say you can't be committed because staying in the clinic has a terrible effect on you? I don't think that's how institution works, but I don't really know
21:52:18 <mroman> no.
21:52:23 <wob_jonas> not that I don't believe you can't be committed, only that reason seems odd
21:52:48 <mroman> any doctor can legally committ any random person for 24h no questions asked
21:53:37 <mroman> the questios is whether any random person would comply.
21:53:51 <wob_jonas> also, thanks for telling about your situation, it (and other stories on #esoteric ) shows me I'm not alone in some sense
21:54:03 <mroman> theoreticaly the police can enforce admission of course
21:54:19 <mroman> it's just
21:54:24 <wob_jonas> as for that, I don't know how they keep people in against their will, but they seem good at it. maybe that only works for certain types of people.
21:54:42 <alercah> mroman: are you open to a discussion by PM?
21:54:59 <mroman> oh.
21:55:24 <wob_jonas> well, technically, I do have some ideas from certain terrible stories my mother told about people who really had to be kept in for a good reason, but I mostly blocked them from my mind
21:55:41 <wob_jonas> I try not to pay too much attention to most details of my mother's work, it has a bad effect
21:56:08 <wob_jonas> I only listen to the part of how it affects her outside her works, like a certain workplace accident when he got his hand bitten, strongly, by a kid
21:56:33 <wob_jonas> and how overloaded she is with her work because she just can't stop accepting more and more work all the time
21:56:41 <wob_jonas> she's so dedicated
22:02:41 <wob_jonas> http://dlib.net/ => oh wow. this sounds nice. if it actually lives up to those promises in the front page, then I'll like this library. it reminds me to other well maintained software that I also like.
22:03:47 <wob_jonas> (some other such software are http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/ and http://sqlite.org/ . if you already know this dlib thing, and like it, check out those.)
22:07:54 <wob_jonas> wtf, did they change the shortcut for the bookmark manager too? I swear firefox keeps scrambling keyboard shortcuts lately. they've changed the shortcut for the download list twice, between control-J, control-Y, and control-shift-something, and now the bookmarks
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23:00:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: wait, I wanted to tell about my stupid esolang idea
23:00:35 <wob_jonas> I got distracted
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23:01:45 <wob_jonas> basically I was thinking of creating an esolang parody of bad esolangs that some people create and write about on the wiki.
23:02:56 <ais523> wob_jonas: Statistical Brainfuck is basically that, but I never got round to writing it
23:03:11 <ais523> it's basically BF only it infers the commands in use via analysing the program
23:03:18 <wob_jonas> I'll try to use a lot of the bad tropes, such as no really eso features, missing computation power such as not enough control structures or not enough memory access, and also a bad attempt of an implementation that supports only the easier half of the language features, crippling it even more, sometimes fails to match the documentation, and has bug
23:03:18 <wob_jonas> s and bad coding that clearly shows the creator doesn't know how to implement interpreters (this part might be hard for me, I'm not saying I write good code, but it's hard to deliberately write code bad in that way)
23:03:19 <ais523> and if it can't figure it out, prints "Hello, world!".
23:03:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: ah, right
23:03:52 <ais523> the easiest way to write a "language from someone who can't write interpreters" is to have no form of control flow at all
23:04:01 <ais523> all the commands run in sequence, then the program ends
23:05:07 <wob_jonas> Also I won't learn Java or C# for just this, even though it would be realistic to write the interpreter in that, and I also won't unlearn C++ to imitate the horrible C++ styles found online, but I'll still try to do justice to using an unsuitable programming language and the wrong features of that langugae.
23:05:30 <ais523> wob_jonas: write it in C with a .cpp extension
23:05:39 <ais523> that should be close enough
23:05:56 <ais523> and is fairly easy to do even if you're a good programmer
23:06:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that can work, but if I do that, then either I can't write an interpreter at all, or I'll have to write an interpreter that's not obviously lacking important features of the language. that could be more realstic, but also more boring
23:06:18 <ais523> Python could also work, if you know it
23:06:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, those are options. I was also thinking of using C or pascal with some vague label like "Pascal 5.0" that suggests some old DOS interpreter.
23:07:02 <wob_jonas> I haven't really decided yet.
23:08:01 <ais523> what about some proprietary language which is very similar to a more widely used free language?
23:08:09 <ais523> only I don't know many examples of those nowadays
23:08:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: I do know a little mathematica and maple and matlab, which may be enough to write bad code, but I'm not sure how realistic it would be for a newbie to use those to write interpreters
23:08:57 <wob_jonas> even bad interpreters
23:09:19 <Taneb> wob_jonas, how about visual basic
23:09:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: right
23:09:23 <wob_jonas> I can also write C or C++ that only works in microsoft compilers
23:09:29 <ais523> oh, yes, visual basic works perfectly for this
23:09:40 <ais523> and you can learn the relevant parts in like 5 minutes if you don't know it already
23:09:44 <ais523> (spending any more time would defeat the purpose)
23:09:55 <ais523> C using conio.h would also make sense
23:10:06 <wob_jonas> Taneb: eww. I mean, I can write bad basic, I used to, even in visual basic, but I would feel so dirty from that as if I wrote php
23:10:21 <Taneb> wob_jonas, :)
23:11:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: pascal with turbo/borland pascal's crt library is sort of the same as conio from turbo/borland c, only older and that much simpler (turbo pascal is actually a non-optimizing compiler), and was quite popular in the days when people used turbo pascal in DOS for education, and those days haven't completely ended yet
23:12:06 <ais523> <wob_jonas> (turbo pascal is actually a non-optimizing compiler) ← now I'm even more confused and worried about how when, years ago, I rewrote a Turbo Pascal program in C and it got slower
23:12:19 <wob_jonas> mind you, it was a good IDE and library for the context it was made for
23:12:26 <ais523> was there something massively wrong with the library I was using, or something massively wrong with my code?
23:13:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: turbo C is an optimizing compiler, but that's basically like a non-optimizing compiler today. sort of like how C is a low-level language now, but was a high level language forty years ago
23:13:29 <wob_jonas> serious projects used assembly for all the performance-critical code
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23:14:27 <wob_jonas> it was easier to mix with C than even now, because there was good support for assembly in the IDEs and debuggers, good support for inline assembly, the compilers had simple ABIs, and the CPU and OS was simpler so optimized assembly prorgamming was easier to learn
23:15:02 <wob_jonas> which of course means that most of the assembly programs written back then are worse than what you'd write in C++ today, with some exceptions of master programmers, but still, it was useful at the time
23:15:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm trying and failing to remember the precise C compiler I used
23:16:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: what target platform? MS-DOS? win16 on x86? win32 on x86?
23:16:05 <ais523> also, ABIs are /still/ simple when the signature of the function is simple
23:16:11 <wob_jonas> or even OS-2?
23:16:31 <ais523> and I know the computer it was on was running either Windows 95 or Windows 98, but I don't know the platform of the executable, although it was probably a DOS executable
23:17:26 <wob_jonas> turbo C and borland C did support win16 as a target, but few people learned that because then you have to learn a lot about win16 system programming first and get familiar with the libraries
23:17:48 <ais523> win16 was my "main" target platform for several years
23:18:01 <wob_jonas> good GUIs are still hard, and it was even harder when you HAD to support cooperative multitasking with no memory protection
23:18:02 <ais523> when it stopped working, I ended up switching to Linux rather than trying to get win32 to work
23:18:20 <ais523> (part of the reason behind this is that my compiler had problems making win32 code, possibly due to bitrot)
23:18:35 <\oren\> Cringe! https://scontent.fwaw3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21317927_870196236467487_2502978163715573443_n.jpg?oh=0036232e6f91b8a0c522171488267087&oe=5A1901C7
23:18:53 <ais523> win16 + GDI wasn't too bad when you were used to it, anyway, although my programming style was shocking back then
23:18:59 <ais523> or maybe not shocking, just unsuitable for Windows
23:19:26 <ais523> I typically put the entire program logic into the repaint handler, then had a timer to repaint the window at short intervals
23:19:29 <wob_jonas> actually, when did it stop working? I stopped using win16 programs before windows dropped support, but I know win95 OSR2 runs the non-unicode win16 programs winword 2 and 6 and excel 5 fine, and I seem to remember they still ran on win32
23:19:40 <ais523> which is actually how most old games consoles work (although I didn't know that at the time), but is very out of place on PC
23:20:05 <ais523> wob_jonas: even in windows 98 some of the APIs didn't work
23:20:09 <wob_jonas> or do you mean compilers and libraries stopped supporting win16 programming, as opposed to windows stopped supporting running windows programs?
23:20:10 <ais523> like the one to play music through the PC speaker
23:20:19 <pikhq> Technically, it never did stop working -- Windows 10 *still* supports Win16, if you're on x86, not x86_64.
23:20:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: I know some of the old APIs didn't work, but those came up in very old win16 programs from before windows 3 (seriously) or older DOS programs
23:20:40 <pikhq> That said, I imagine stuff only *kinda* works these days.
23:20:44 <ais523> I had to move onto MDI instead which is a pain because on our Windows 98 configuration, attempting to load a MIDI file with MDI caused a freeze of tens of seconds
23:21:08 <ais523> (although oddly, if you played one through Windows Media Player, the freeze happened when the file looped for the first time rather than when it was initially loaded)
23:21:23 <wob_jonas> pikhq: yes, but it's sometimes easier to just run those programs in a full virtual machine
23:21:31 <ais523> I worked around this by preloading all the MIDI files during a loading screen at the start but it meant that the program took ages to load
23:21:56 <ais523> Windows XP reduced this to about a second per file, so it was much more reasonable (although still seems ridiculously large given how simple a MIDI file should be to load)
23:22:15 <ais523> also, IIRC MDI used a "command-line" API where you called a function and passed a string to it describing what you want to do
23:22:34 <ais523> rather than using separate functions which each had their own arguments
23:22:44 <ais523> and I may have the name of the library wrong, it was ages ago
23:23:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, I can imagine the graphics and sound stuff used mostly by games stopped working earlier. that wasn't really MS's target to support. although some of that is because the DOS (and even nominally win16) programs used direct hardware stuff, not documented APIs, for speed and flexibility, and those are much harder to emulate than APIs that
23:23:01 <wob_jonas> reasonably designed wrt future compatibility
23:23:53 <wob_jonas> "I had to move onto MDI instead which is a pain because on our Windows 98 configuration, attempting to load a MIDI file with MDI caused a freeze of tens of seconds" => hehe, that totally sounds believable. for that era, and for today also
23:24:29 <wob_jonas> "by preloading all the MIDI files during a loading screen" => wait, it froze for loading EACH midi file? that's even worse
23:24:45 <wob_jonas> couldn't you work it around by loading just one big midi file and playing sections?
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23:25:52 <wob_jonas> "also, IIRC MDI used a "command-line" API where you called a function and passed a string to it describing what you want to do" => we use the euphemism "domain-specific language" rather than "command line" for APIs like that
23:26:13 <wob_jonas> they still exist these days, and are sometimes good but sometimes terrible
23:26:49 <\oren\> i like sqlite
23:27:02 <wob_jonas> a reasonably good example is SQLite, where most of the API is SQL statements, and people keep asking for a more direct C api for many functions, but the devs wisely don't add such a thing, because that would make future compatibility much harder
23:28:31 <wob_jonas> a bad example is G'MIC's api, although I don't know enough about it to be sure. it involves syntax horror with impossible quoting of the like cmd and powershell could envy.
23:28:39 <wob_jonas> and it can access files from the file system.
23:30:02 <wob_jonas> you might also count cases where an interpreter was first and an API was added as an afterthought but the API wasn't designed, it just evolved from trying to hack the interpreter. perl is the classical example, but I seem to remember there was a few more like that.
23:31:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm not sure what controlled the duration of the freeze, it might have been that a large file froze for logner
23:31:13 <wob_jonas> (perl 5 obviously
23:31:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: SQLite does have a direct C API for many of its functions
23:32:02 <wob_jonas> perl 6 has an overdesigned impossible to implement API with second system effect, completely unlike the rest of the language, because the designer for that is a different person from Larry who has the vision for the language proper)
23:32:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: direct C api for many of the auxiliary functions, but not for the database table accesses, which would be sort of the main point
23:34:27 <wob_jonas> also while it tries hard to pretend that it has a complete API for writing new SQL functions, there are actually a few things that the builtin functions can do but that are impossible with the public API. I asked about one or two of this, and it's by design, because they couldn't figure out a good enough API for that functionality yet, so they'll r
23:34:27 <wob_jonas> ather not add bad APIs that will constrain future compat.
23:37:09 <wob_jonas> in particular, MIN and MAX magically compare text values (character strings, they just use a strange term) with the collating function appropriate for the column, when the documented API makes that impossible
23:37:49 <wob_jonas> there's also a few builtin optimizations for MIN and MAX, but then those are transparent optimizations so that's OK
23:38:54 <wob_jonas> anyway, if I create such a parody, I'll try to create a new user account on the esowiki for it, with a little background personality story, and perhaps call it fungot
23:38:55 <fungot> wob_jonas: this, my friends, is the malaise of the glutton at life's buffet, building complicaters? domino frustraters? wobbley times u.s.a.? um, maybe if i told his jokes
23:39:52 <Phantom_Hoover> wob_jonas, isn't perl 6 basically an elaborate esolang in the intercal tradition by now
23:39:52 <wob_jonas> fungot: yes, and some of the things they promise are actually physically impossible. it is starting to sound like one of those pseudoscience products actually
23:39:52 <fungot> wob_jonas: this is a very common fantasy among children played hopscotch! maybe! i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. they'll just go somewhere else.
23:40:08 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know
23:40:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean
23:40:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://glyphic.s3.amazonaws.com/ozone/mark/periodic/Periodic%20Table%20of%20the%20Operators%20A4%20300dpi.jpg
23:40:49 <wob_jonas> And I should try to hide some specific community in-jokes or references in the text too
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23:41:14 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: yes, I can see why it's like an esolang, it's just the Intercal part that I don't understand
23:41:35 <Phantom_Hoover> well intercal's philosophy was 'be a bizarre reflection of a serious language'
23:42:02 <wob_jonas> oh, and some of the perl6 features it has are very impractical to interpret even programs that sparesly use them, like computed come from
23:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas the vast majority of esolangs are along the brainfuck/befunge tradition of 'be some utterly weird model of computation'
23:42:55 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: but it doesn't look like a reflection of any language to me. quite the opposite, it seems a very unique language in its feature set and design, different from everything else I've seen, it's just that the feature set and design is terrible
23:43:22 <Phantom_Hoover> that's true of intercal too man
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23:45:48 <wob_jonas> perl6 has some parts of utterly weird model of computation, such as how it stores data. you can imagine it as a parody of perl5, where in perl5 it occured mostly from historical compatibility and different features trying to have different models utterly incompatible with each other, as in DWIM scalars a la perl/bash/tcl versus scalars that know th
23:45:48 <wob_jonas> eir dynamical type a la python/ruby; in perl6 it's a straight up design without much historical compatibility reasons that ends up looking like a bad parody.
23:45:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i've never looked into perl 6 too deeply b/c it was always too incomprehensible in my 'learn all the languages' phase
23:46:13 <wob_jonas> sure, I didn't look at it deeply either
23:46:36 <wob_jonas> and I'm actively avoiding it now, sort of like how I avoid PHP
23:47:41 <wob_jonas> the difference is that PHP has a bad history like C++ and has actually improved a lot in recent versions, slowly turning into a good language, but with most of the code monkeys using it still using all the bad programming practices they learn from past bad code examples and old books;
23:47:56 <wob_jonas> whereas perl6 isn't like that.
23:49:04 <Phantom_Hoover> what's so weird about perl 6's scalars
23:49:29 <wob_jonas> I'm not avoiding PHP because it's such a bad language, but because I have a superstition that the four big p languages (perl, ruby, python and php) are mutually incompatible in that any one person must choose at most three unless they want to tempt fate, and I already know too much about perl, ruby, and python.
23:50:05 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: I don't remember. I managed to deliberately forget most of the specific knowledge I acquired about perl 6. I'm happier not knowing now.
23:50:16 <wob_jonas> It's possible that the scalars aren't the problem.
23:50:45 <wob_jonas> I only retained the general warning sign reasons so that I know why I shouldn't revisit it ever.
23:50:56 <wob_jonas> You know, to avoid the "how bad can it be" thing
23:51:48 <wob_jonas> but it's not easy to suppress stuff, which is why I have to completely avoid the language or else the suppressed memories might resurface
23:55:07 <wob_jonas> wait wait. how can a modern library provide a portable thread abstraction and at the same time have structures with non-threadsafe reference counting. that makes no sense.
23:55:44 <wob_jonas> atomic refcounts are not hard to implement these days, there are tons of other code you can copy from if you want the portability, and they're almost always just as fast as non-threadsafe refcounts if there's no contention of multiple threads accessing the same refcount close to the same time, with the unusual exception when there's page tear
23:56:10 <wob_jonas> s/page tear/cache line tear/
23:56:27 <wob_jonas> cache line tear as in different threads accessing different parts of a cache line with at least one writing
23:56:59 <wob_jonas> and even with cache line tear you don't lose much performance compared to non-threadsafe code
23:57:08 <wob_jonas> maybe you don't lose any, I'm not sure
23:57:19 <wob_jonas> it's just that cache line tear already loses you performance, no matter what
23:57:38 <wob_jonas> you just have to avoid it, just like you avoid unaligned objects that pass through a cache line boundary
23:58:07 <wob_jonas> both are simply technologically impossible to support efficiently, there's nothing to do but avoid them whenever performance matters
23:59:51 <wob_jonas> but most of the time they're easy to avoid: just align all objects, and use a memory allocator that's reasonably threading aware. if you do that, then you usually have to do specifically stupid things as in disabling the safety that's already there to get misalignment, and typically have to do design that already has bad performance to get cache li
23:59:51 <wob_jonas> ne tear
2017-09-08
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00:05:05 <wob_jonas> sorry for the rant, it's annoying. I should set up a blog where I put all the stupid rants I talk about all the time
00:10:45 <\oren\> pholy fuck this code is so poisonous it causes the debugger itself to lock up
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00:13:48 <\oren\> like I can set a break point at line 180, and hit continue, and then gdb will output its prompt, and THEN the system locks up
00:21:26 <\oren\> I can step through this part of the code, but not continue through it
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01:15:55 <wob_jonas> `quote fungo
01:15:56 <HackEgo> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
01:16:02 <wob_jonas> `quote fungot
01:16:02 <fungot> wob_jonas: hey, t-rex, i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. ready... set... go! on to, but i don't like them, you have to be wacky to go on a walk!
01:16:03 <HackEgo> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
01:30:54 <oerjan> `2 quote fungot
01:30:55 <fungot> oerjan: and that is good, but now each of them has met their maker.
01:30:56 <HackEgo> 2/42: please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys) \ 57) <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" \ 80) <AnMaster>
01:31:11 <oerjan> `randquote fungot
01:31:11 <fungot> oerjan: oh, t-rex, i'm not sure i should do this" they'd say, and hey presto, you're a muslim! bears do it, but the more they'll find you
01:31:12 <HackEgo> 695) <fungot> elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world
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01:39:06 * ATMunn pokes fungot
01:39:06 <fungot> ATMunn: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. everything is similar but different! everybody i know gets to write one chapter, and they don't do anything they might regret before they get married, and have children! the only career she wants to spend a friday as weekend, why not monday too?
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02:46:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53053&oldid=53051 * Raumaankidwai * (+61)
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03:49:59 <oerjan> everyone knows SIGABRT smoking is lethal
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11:56:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53054&oldid=50433 * SuperJedi224 * (+51)
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13:22:22 <izabera> `unidecode ▀▄
13:23:30 <izabera> `unidecode ▀▄
13:23:31 <HackEgo> ​[U+2580 UPPER HALF BLOCK] [U+2584 LOWER HALF BLOCK]
13:23:39 <izabera> where is middle half block?
13:23:57 <izabera> i mean middle block
13:24:28 <b_jonas> izabera: I don't think there's one. these two are for drawing block graphics.
13:26:36 <izabera> yeah but i wanted to draw a line that's half as high as a normal line and i wanted it in the middle
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13:27:57 <b_jonas> izabera: use graphics?
13:30:33 <izabera> why would i do that
13:31:08 <APic> Why not?
13:33:40 <b_jonas> well, graphics is sometimes good at drawing lines, although there are kinds of graphics that isn't, such as tile+sprite graphics
13:34:16 * FireFly . o O ( ⠶⠶⠶⠶⠶⠶ )
13:34:48 <FireFly> not really the same thing, but it's vertically centred and ~the right size
13:35:30 <FireFly> I know, I know, abusing Braille glyphs as monochrome bitmap-drawing chars…
13:36:50 <b_jonas> there's also ━━━━━━━━━
13:40:41 <izabera> `unidecode ━
13:40:42 <HackEgo> ​[U+2501 BOX DRAWINGS HEAVY HORIZONTAL]
13:40:47 <izabera> not bad
13:42:03 <b_jonas> that doesn't have much font support though
13:42:09 <b_jonas> it's much rarer than ▄
13:42:27 <b_jonas> because ▄ is in cp437 and similar
13:42:47 <FireFly> Is one of ▀ or ▄ more commonly supported than the other?
13:43:15 <FireFly> I usually use ▀ when I want to draw blocky graphics in programs, so that fg = top pixel, bg = bottom pixel
13:44:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: no, except that the commodore 64 video always has 128 normal displayable characters and 128 inverse images of those, so one of them is in the lower half and one in the upper half, but that shouldn't matter much. also on some displays one of them might be a pixel higher than the other.
13:44:16 <b_jonas> (if the character grid is an odd pixel height)
13:44:21 <FireFly> Ah
13:45:13 <FireFly> I think all my fonts have had character grids of even height, heh (usually the height of capital letters is odd, though)
13:45:27 <FireFly> as in, the ones I've designed, not ones I've used
13:45:53 <b_jonas> (it also has at least two different charsets of 128 chars that you can toggle for the whole screen easily, but that doesn't matter)
13:46:18 <FireFly> b_jonas: have you seen https://hackaday.com/2016/12/15/character-generation-in-144-bytes/ btw? since you're interested in bitmap fonts and it's a kinda #esoteric thing wrt them
13:49:04 <FireFly> It's a cool idea to design a font that can be stored in a tiny space by re-using tiles between glyphs
13:50:08 <b_jonas> FireFly: I haven't. I have written a DOS COM program that loads a 16x9 VGA font I drew, but it only bothers to load the 95 printable ASCII characters or so, plus the 18 accented Hungarian letters,
13:51:02 <FireFly> Hehe
13:51:07 <b_jonas> the table for ASCII font is stored raw in the COM file so that's like 95*16 bytes, but then the 18 accented ones have only the scanlines of the accents stored, and it generates them procedurally.
13:51:25 <FireFly> When I drew a bitmap font recently inspired by that hackaday post, I only bothered with uppercase, digits and a few punctuation characters
13:51:31 <FireFly> not even full printable-ASCII coverage
13:51:48 <FireFly> Ah, that's neat
13:51:51 <b_jonas> Neither the compression scheme nor the code isn't too optimized though, partly because it's already small enough, and partly because I didn't know better.
13:52:09 <b_jonas> As for "bothered with", well, that one isn't a particularly good font.
13:52:35 <b_jonas> fecupboard20, the 10x20 font that I made later, is much better
13:52:37 <FireFly> reminds me of how ^~`'", in ASCII acted as diacritics too, via overstriking
13:52:48 <FireFly> Yeah, I have a copy of fecupboard20 somewhere
13:52:51 <b_jonas> FireFly: only for printers. that isn't possible on video terminals.
13:52:58 <b_jonas> FireFly: it's in `? fonts
13:53:10 <FireFly> ah
13:53:41 <FireFly> I should make a page collecting my bitmap fonts… and provide them in more useful formats
13:55:04 <FireFly> b_jonas: https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984 this was what I ended up with when I designed a font with the "re-use tiles" constraint from the hackaday post btw (it's bad as a programming font since 0=O, 1=I, 5=S, but intended for demo-y contexts where size matters)
13:55:25 <b_jonas> FireFly: that would be nice
13:56:12 <FireFly> Yeah, currently my fonts are only provided in… ummm… my own "bitmap font format", which is really just a convenient way for me to edit it as a png
13:56:18 <b_jonas> FireFly: nice
13:58:07 <b_jonas> FireFly: I don't know how that compares to a COM file, but then for the two fonts I put in a COM file I later also extracted to headerless raw VGA font format
13:58:15 <b_jonas> so that I can load them on Linux console too
13:58:48 * FireFly nods
13:59:04 <FireFly> I mostly just like designing fonts with harsh constraints placed on the design
13:59:11 <FireFly> like very harsh size constrains, for instance
14:00:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: this is the 9x16 VGA font in the smaller COM file: http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/stickfont-screenshot0.png
14:00:28 <FireFly> Hm
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14:00:49 <b_jonas> and it is sort of constrained to have only hollow lines,
14:00:49 <FireFly> I think I would fill in the vertical lines rather than backboard-bold it
14:00:54 <FireFly> mm
14:01:04 <b_jonas> sure, that would look better. this one isn't really a readable text font
14:01:15 <FireFly> Yeah, more presentational?
14:01:19 <b_jonas> it's rather a fancy heading font, which I know makes no sense in VGA text mode
14:01:26 <b_jonas> it doesn't really have a good purpose
14:01:32 <FireFly> It doesn't have to
14:01:40 <b_jonas> it was just something I made back when I had lots of time for stupid experiments but less experience
14:02:11 <b_jonas> the * character look s particularly ugly, I tried to redraw it several times but couldn't get anything reasonable
14:02:57 <FireFly> I made a new lowercase for a 8×4px-tile font (7×3px size for capital letters), making the lowercase one pixel smaller, but more consistent in size across letters
14:03:17 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2017-09-08_141818.png
14:03:21 <b_jonas> that tiled font you made looks quite nice though
14:03:39 <FireFly> Yeah, I'm pretty content with it
14:03:56 <FireFly> I was thinking it'd look okay in a game (I had this js13kgames competition in mind when I made it)
14:04:47 <b_jonas> the other font I made was actually usable as a terminal font. it was fecupboard18, which only ever had 256 characters of coverage, and I never distributed it because of copyright reasons:
14:05:12 <b_jonas> I made most of it by combining characters from three or four existing 16x9 VGA terminal fonts, picking whichever I liked the best,
14:05:19 <b_jonas> and edited only a few characters specifically
14:06:00 <b_jonas> Fecupboard20 started as a sort of successor, but completely copyright laundered, but it grew to have a rather different visual style, and much more character coverage eventually
14:06:03 <FireFly> Ah
14:06:47 <b_jonas> Fecupboard20 also originally had only 256 characters (and a lot of them were just copies of other characters), and even now the ASCII part is way more mature than the little non-ASCII coverage it has
14:06:59 <b_jonas> it still both has too few characters, and some of the non-ASCII stuff is REALLY ugly
14:07:03 <FireFly> Most of my fonts cover only printable ASCII + assorted glyphs that I found interesting to draw
14:07:13 <b_jonas> the whole greek letters part should be thrown out and redone from scratch for example
14:07:37 <FireFly> I think only oneof my fonts cover greek
14:07:40 <FireFly> covers*
14:07:44 <b_jonas> FireFly: fecupboard20 covers printable ASCII plus assorted glyphs that I found interesting to *display*
14:07:50 <b_jonas> in a terminal that is
14:08:05 <FireFly> Yeah, that's probably more useful :P
14:08:07 <b_jonas> FireFly: this doesn't cover greek, it only has the basic greek alphabet intended for simple mathematical formulas
14:08:51 <b_jonas> entirely unsuitable for greek text
14:09:22 <b_jonas> if I want to add language coverage, I'd add more latin letters and russian before I even tried to draw greek
14:09:50 <b_jonas> both because greek is less useful, I rarely try to read or write greek text, I only use greek letters for maths formulas,
14:10:08 <b_jonas> and because greek is slightly harder to draw if you want it actually nice-looking
14:10:16 <FireFly> Hm, honestly I don't know if my greek is good for greek text
14:10:25 <b_jonas> not that cyrillic is easy to draw either
14:10:33 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/7x5px-font.png
14:10:46 <FireFly> the height is probably awfully off for my greek lowercase here
14:10:53 <FireFly> well, awfully inconsistent
14:10:57 <b_jonas> obviously supporting greek text is nice and possible, but not in a font that only covers like 2000 characters
14:11:28 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/9x5px-font.png oh I guess this one has greek too
14:11:29 <b_jonas> FireFly: wow, that actually has greek letters!
14:11:44 <b_jonas> and I don't think you made it up on the fly as I mentioned it, that would be too fast, you probably already had it
14:11:47 <b_jonas> upper and lowercase
14:12:02 <FireFly> Yeah, these are old fonts
14:12:48 <FireFly> 9x5px has the same x-height as 9x5px, so a lot of the glyphs are shared between them
14:12:57 <FireFly> Just more space for ascenders/descenders
14:12:58 <b_jonas> and it actually looks like acceptable greek letter glyphs to me too
14:13:10 <FireFly> 2px for each rather than 1px for each (1px ascender/descender is really tiny :P)
14:13:23 <b_jonas> "9x5px has the same x-height as 9x5px," huh?
14:13:32 <b_jonas> what's the difference between those two?
14:13:36 <FireFly> err, as 7x5px
14:13:40 <FireFly> my bad
14:14:12 <b_jonas> well yes. 8x16 and 9x16 would share like a third of the characters too, but I never really tried to make a 8x16 font.
14:14:28 <FireFly> the 7x5px-font.png has 5px x-height, 1px for asc/desc (thus, 7px space reserved for letters), the 9x5px-font.png has 5px x-height and 2px for asc/desc
14:14:39 <b_jonas> there didn't seem a point, with vertical screen estate always more precious than horizontal screen estate
14:14:58 <FireFly> Hm, it depends
14:15:56 <FireFly> I mean, I like having terminals open side-by-side, but would still want 80-90 chars' width
14:16:12 <FireFly> if, say, having files open in vim or so
14:17:09 <b_jonas> FireFly: there are also 5+x7+ and 5+x8+ and x8+ fonts with no space allocated for descenders and 5 pixel x height, where the + means it's shown on displays with gap between the fixed character cells, and the x8+ is variable width shown on single-line pixel displays on information boards
14:18:04 <FireFly> ah
14:18:59 <FireFly> My tiniest fonts (3px and 4px high) are variable-width out of necessity… (also, are really uppercase-only/don't cover full printable-ASCII)
14:19:05 <b_jonas> on modern large TFTs, you now get to do that with 9px width, even if we didn't on older 1024px wide TFT and good CRT monitors
14:19:19 <FireFly> Well, the 4px-high font *has* a lowercase but it's awful and I know it's awful
14:19:23 <FireFly> I wouldn't actually use ti
14:19:24 <FireFly> it*
14:19:42 <b_jonas> (for some worse CRT monitors, 1024px wide had too many rows and wouldn't display nicely, and video cards didn't have enough memory for high color depth at 1024x width)
14:20:08 <FireFly> Heh
14:20:49 <b_jonas> yeah, that was back when the choice between 4, 8, 16, 24 bits of color depth was a real problem, and lots of software had to have extra code for supporting reasonable graphics at lower color depths
14:21:12 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/4px-font.png ← there are some horribly awful glyphs here (# & { } come to mind)
14:21:42 <b_jonas> these days the difficulty is the opposite: lots of software don't yet have enough support for more than 8 bit per channel color depth, but more and more applications have real need for such high color depth per channel
14:22:03 <b_jonas> this isn't only for display, but also for graphics editing without displaying the high color depth
14:22:09 <FireFly> Indeed
14:22:52 <FireFly> It's a bit unfortunate that we have kind of settled on 8 bits per channel as defacto standard
14:23:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: I have tried to draw some tiny fonts, but they never really worked so I don't have anything actually finished, and even those had a pixel for ascender
14:23:05 <b_jonas> no
14:23:07 <b_jonas> a pixel for descender
14:23:51 <b_jonas> at those small sizes you're best at trying to draw a font that has letter shapes rather different from traditional printed ones, readable only after practice
14:24:06 <b_jonas> some crazy people do that even for larger sizes
14:24:17 <b_jonas> that's a type of crazyness that isn't too far from me
14:24:48 <b_jonas> even fecupboard20 has characters that are deliberately uglier for easier proofreading, because it's a terminal font, not a typographic font
14:25:13 <FireFly> I really dislike… inconsistencies like having lowercase letters at uppercase size (so x-height = full height) or using lowercase n as uppercase, but I think when working with extreme constraints it can be okay
14:25:31 <b_jonas> but I have more restraints in going against the typographical traditions than to do something much more radical than that
14:25:38 <FireFly> b_jonas: oh, "sufficiently distinct glyphs" is certainly a fine thing to keep in mind when designing a font
14:25:54 <FireFly> that reminds me of some of the fonts designed specifically for signage
14:26:04 <b_jonas> FireFly: sure, but still there's a difference between one intended for proofreading and one intended for easy reading
14:26:16 <b_jonas> "signage"? what does that mean?
14:26:46 <b_jonas> is that when you try to make printed text that's hard to modify (for either forging or defacing) by drawing some extra lines in pen
14:26:53 <FireFly> I mean, for traffic signs and such
14:26:54 <b_jonas> ?
14:26:59 <b_jonas> oh, traffic signs
14:27:22 <FireFly> Or car plates, where having distinct glyphs for different characters/digits is important
14:27:34 <b_jonas> isn't that just normal readable fonts that try to be readable from faraway in bad vision conditions, rather than from close like books? you do sans serif with thick lines for that, but still make it nice looking
14:27:56 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, yes, but e.g. I recall some font where the Q had some quirks to make it more distinct from an O
14:28:09 <b_jonas> I don't know what to think about car reg plates, because different countries use SO VERY different style fonts that I can't really imagine why
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14:28:30 <b_jonas> and it's not just because of a difference in the set of characters used
14:28:38 <FireFly> like intentionally exaggerating the space surrounding tail of the Q to make it extra clear at a distance
14:28:54 <FireFly> (the tail being separated with paddingn from the circle)
14:29:00 <FireFly> err, I'm not describing this well :p
14:29:03 <b_jonas> because that can explain a few changes, like some countries have Ö and Ä in license plates
14:29:46 <b_jonas> FireFly: meh, they do that with the Q even in some print fonts. it makes sense because it's a capital letter in text that's not all-caps.
14:30:07 <b_jonas> reg plates are all uppercase, and road signs have some all-caps text
14:30:20 <FireFly> Mm, sure
14:31:39 <b_jonas> Q is one of those letters that's rare enough in most text that fonts designers use it to try to make their font different from others. the other such character is &
14:32:25 <FireFly> I ended up with a somewhat Quake-like Q in that tile-based font :p with the tail being vertically centred and vertical
14:32:38 <FireFly> That was mainly for tile re-use purposes though
14:32:42 <b_jonas> If a text says "Q&A", that's a great help for identifying an unknown font.
14:32:50 <FireFly> Heh, yes
14:32:57 <b_jonas> hmm... I should put "Q&A" in font specimens
14:33:00 <FireFly> Ampersands are tricky to draw
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14:33:13 <FireFly> I've never liked mine much
14:34:15 <b_jonas> straight vertical tail in Q is fine, you can just say it's a long tradition going back to the phoenician alphabet. font designers always respect tradition.
14:34:28 <b_jonas> but then, any style of Q is fine, and any style of & too, that's the whole point
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14:39:55 <FireFly> Yep
14:40:05 <FireFly> of course, ideally the style is somewhat consistent across glyphs
14:41:08 <FireFly> b_jonas: re. fecupboard18, I recall reading that in the US bitmap fonts specifically aren't copyrightable because glyphs are small and so it's hard to claim originality/several people can draw the same glyph
14:41:30 <FireFly> Which is a bit interesting (and I think I disagree with it, but partially agree… blah, it's a tricky area)
14:42:14 <FireFly> like at some point if you approach extremely tiny sizes, it's inevitable that the same glyphs get drawn the same way independently
14:42:34 <b_jonas> FireFly: it's possible that they aren't copyrightable, I'm not sure, but since it's not a particularly good font, nor one unique enough that someone would need that one in particular rather than any of the plethora of already available x16 video fonts (many of them clearly free of copyright), I didn't want to decide.
14:42:57 <b_jonas> If someone wants to take a look at it without distributing it, I can give it to them personally, but I don't think it's valuable enough.
14:43:19 <b_jonas> It's just a combination from multiple similar fonts according to whatever I liked at that time. I don't even like it much anymore.
14:43:44 <b_jonas> fecupboard20 is different, some people apart from me actually seem to like it
14:43:57 <b_jonas> and there's much fewer choice in decent x20 bitmap fonts
14:44:31 <b_jonas> I couldn't just combine it from existing fonts with small modifications, because I didn't know of any good enough fonts similar to it
14:44:38 <b_jonas> that's why I draw it from scratch
14:44:55 <b_jonas> sure, I did take some inspiration of all sorts of existing fonts, but you have to do that to make your own art
14:47:04 <FireFly> Right, yeah
14:47:17 <FireFly> it's just an interesting thing, the copyrightability of bitmap fonts
14:47:52 <FireFly> I think individual glyphs are very likely to get reinvented a lot, but I think the value of a font (at least smallish bitmap fonts) is in consistency and style
14:48:15 <FireFly> and other such traits, things that cover the collection of glyphs as a whole more than an individual glyph
14:48:52 <b_jonas> wow. I am writing a perl one-liner, and I just got an error from perl that isn't a fatal error and whose meaning I can't guess from the code
14:48:56 <b_jonas> this hasn't happened for many years
14:49:05 <b_jonas> s/fatal error/internal error/
14:49:36 <b_jonas> time to check the documentation
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14:50:19 <b_jonas> huh what
14:50:43 <b_jonas> it's a warning, not an error, despite not clearly saying "warning", and the doc doesn't give a clear explanation
14:50:46 <b_jonas> wtf
14:51:15 <b_jonas> ah, I get it!
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14:53:40 <b_jonas> Ideally I should write a doc patch for this, but I'm lazy
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15:11:52 <b_jonas> Q has so many fancy shapes that you could probably draw one that looks like a B or D or S or G at a glance and then deliberately try to confuse people with misreadable words like Quality, Quit, Quite, PLAQUE, Quest, Quilt.
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15:22:26 <FireFly> Ah, Qu ligatures can also look very nice, although bitmap fonts aren't really ligature-friendly :p
15:23:08 <FireFly> <b_jonas> FireFly: only for printers. that isn't possible on video terminals. ← I learned recently about this: https://twitter.com/chordbug/status/905772498796646400 !
15:25:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: was that one that used the type of CRT that traces graphics only once with no continuous rescans and the phosphor keeps remaining lit?
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15:25:51 <FireFly> No idea
15:25:51 <b_jonas> they even used CRTs like that as memory, back before DRAMS when people tried all sorts of crazy constructions to get large efficient RAMs
15:26:16 <FireFly> http://www.platopeople.com/emoticons.html has more examples too
15:27:03 <b_jonas> such as rotating magnetic disks, rotating magnetic disks with a separate head for each sector (this was actually common, I'm not making it up), mercury delay lines, core memory, that crt thing,
15:27:15 <b_jonas> and probably even more that I simply never heard about
15:29:54 <b_jonas> also SRAM and shift registers made of transistors, which were not that crazy, but were hard to use before transistors were invented
15:30:07 <b_jonas> tube or relay variant would have been too bulky
15:30:53 <b_jonas> then the DRAM is of course BOTH crazy and requires large integrated circuits
15:31:21 <b_jonas> but it turned out for large enough memory it could be made smaller than SRAM, so it won out
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