←2021-10 2021-11 2021-12→ ↑2021 ↑all
2021-11-01
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00:38:22 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oerjan: that should be a quiet rather than a ban though, just on principle <-- what principle i'm not very good at this
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01:12:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Potat * New user account
01:29:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89243&oldid=89210 * Potat * (+150) add myself to this list
01:30:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89244&oldid=89243 * Potat * (-13)
01:34:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89245&oldid=89244 * Potat * (+67)
01:35:22 <esolangs> [[User:Potat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89246 * Potat * (+41) Created page with "I want to add a new language: YoptaScript"
01:36:31 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89247&oldid=89232 * Potat * (+18) added YoptaScript
01:38:18 <esolangs> [[YoptaScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89248 * Potat * (+16) template
01:41:03 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89249&oldid=89138 * PixelatedStarfish * (-19) /* Operation Codes */
04:05:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ch44d]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89250 * Ch44d * (+0) make talk
04:10:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ch44d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89251&oldid=89250 * Ch44d * (+208) add contact info
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10:26:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ManiPM * New user account
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10:43:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89252&oldid=89245 * ManiPM * (+224) /* Introductions */
10:44:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89253&oldid=89252 * ManiPM * (+1) /* Introductions */
10:53:07 <esolangs> [[User:ManiPM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89254 * ManiPM * (+198) Created page with "Hello, Everyone! I'm a semi-knows-what-he-is-doing programmer! When I found out about esoteric languages, I was desperate to make my one ones. I hope you ''enjoy'' programm..."
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11:31:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pandaqwanda * New user account
11:34:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89255&oldid=89253 * Pandaqwanda * (+266)
11:37:15 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89256 * Pandaqwanda * (+85) Created page with "<span style="border: 5px solid orange; color: orange;"><b><big>Hello</big></b></span>"
11:39:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89257 * Pandaqwanda * (+124) Created page with "This is a talk page for [[User:Pandaqwanda|<b style="border: 5px solid orange; color: orange;"><big>Pandaqwanda</big></b>]]."
11:39:19 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89258&oldid=89256 * Pandaqwanda * (+1)
11:44:13 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89259 * ManiPM * (+536) Created page with "'''Fun Craft''' is a [[Stack|Stack-Based]], semi-original, [[Esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:ManiPM]], just because he thought maybe creating a language based o..."
11:49:48 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89260&oldid=89259 * ManiPM * (+176)
12:03:10 <esolangs> [[English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89261&oldid=87591 * Pandaqwanda * (+168) /* Examples */
12:03:58 <esolangs> [[English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89262&oldid=89261 * Pandaqwanda * (+2)
12:20:12 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89263&oldid=89260 * ManiPM * (+2177)
12:21:10 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89264&oldid=89263 * ManiPM * (+13)
12:23:16 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89265&oldid=89264 * ManiPM * (+146) /* Examples */
12:29:31 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89266&oldid=89265 * ManiPM * (+93)
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13:29:01 <Sgeo> `olist 1247
13:29:03 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1247.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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13:47:19 <b_jonas> wow, this magical javascript numeric input box is so great! I type 4000, then change my mind and go the beginning, delete the first character and type 5 to change the number to 5000, and guess what, the field contains 5 now, because when it contained 000 the script quickly changed the value to 0 and put the cursor at the end. so convenient! almost as good as those online payment forms that break the
13:47:25 <b_jonas> bank card number to multiple small forms of four digits each, and if I make a typo in the last digit in the group of four, I can't delete it because whenever I try to select the field, the javascript forcibly throws my focus to the next field because that field is full.
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13:49:12 <int-e> b_jonas: obviously you need to change your workflow to first insert 5 and then delete the 1
13:49:35 <int-e> (and then enjoy the magic of maximum input lengths)
13:50:29 <b_jonas> or that other online payment form that has the month and year of the bank card expiry in separate fields, when I enter two digits for the month it sends my focus to the year but does that slowly, so if I type the month then year as four digits then if I'm slow the year is lost; but if I type the month then a tab then the year then if I'm slow the year may go to the wrong field
13:51:12 <b_jonas> the sad part is that this webpage got redesigned and it used to be worse, and I think it's an overall improvement despite this numeric input field
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13:52:36 <b_jonas> it used to have a google captcha thing on it that often refused to work from Firefox on debian no matter how many times I retried, so I used Konqueror as a workaround
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13:54:07 <b_jonas> this is the website of the Vodafone mobile phone provider for buying pre-payment for a mobile phone account, and the number input field is the amount in HUF. luckily they aren't their own payment provider, they redirect to a relatively sane payment provider page.
13:56:28 <b_jonas> ok, I may have spoken early, because I haven't managed to successfully buy pre-payed credit on this redesigned website yet
13:58:48 <b_jonas> success! I just mistyped something the previous time
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15:11:00 <esolangs> [[CLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89267&oldid=89184 * Not applicable * (+1493)
15:17:43 <shachaf> `smlist 533
15:17:45 <HackEso> smlist 533: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
15:19:27 <b_jonas> two lists?
15:21:05 <esolangs> [[CLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89268&oldid=89267 * Not applicable * (+305) /* Filter */ add desc
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15:29:28 <esolangs> [[CLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89269&oldid=89268 * Not applicable * (+758) mmmmmmm tofu
15:32:16 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89270&oldid=89269 * Not applicable * (+64) temporary tofu and tofu are separate ops
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18:05:35 <b_jonas> the A Games Done Quick games list is out, event is 2022-01-09/2022-01-16
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18:44:20 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89271&oldid=89270 * Not applicable * (+363) solar panel
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19:26:49 <esolangs> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89272&oldid=88427 * CatCatDeluxe * (-2) what was that square bracket doing there
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20:01:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Treeplate * New user account
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20:04:43 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89273&oldid=89271 * Not applicable * (+82) /* Solar panels */
20:08:28 <b_jonas> `slashlearn password The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer
20:08:29 <HackEso> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
20:08:34 <b_jonas> `slashlearn password//The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer
20:08:38 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer
20:09:02 <b_jonas> no wait...
20:09:05 <b_jonas> `? rules of wisdom
20:09:07 <HackEso> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, \ they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
20:09:13 <b_jonas> `slashlearn password//The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer.
20:09:16 <b_jonas> needs a period at the end
20:09:17 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer.
20:10:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89274&oldid=89255 * Treeplate * (+172) adding intro
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20:15:25 <esolangs> [[CLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89275&oldid=89273 * Not applicable * (+394) better examples
20:26:22 <esolangs> [[Sunny morning]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89276&oldid=71169 * Treeplate * (+467) Add 'H' output example
20:26:23 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89277&oldid=89275 * Not applicable * (+532) intro
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22:47:36 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89278&oldid=89166 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5) /* Heck */
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23:01:02 <esolangs> [[E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89279&oldid=60828 * Corbin * (+85) Disambiguate with a link to WP.
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23:55:07 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89280&oldid=89172 * Ch44d * (+284) Document undocumented rule tu.
23:56:20 <zzo38> One possible way to avoid that and other annoyances might be to disable change events until the field is unfocused or a button is selected.
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2021-11-02
00:12:42 <oerjan> <b_jonas> wow, this magical javascript numeric input box is so great! <-- were you changing payment limits too, like it did the other day?
00:12:54 <oerjan> i noticed the same effect
00:13:00 <oerjan> *like i did
00:14:44 <oerjan> i don't think it put the cursor at the end, so i ended up with 50 or so.
00:15:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: not payment limits (see later in the backscroll), and it definitely put the cursor at the end too
00:18:00 <oerjan> just got there
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01:11:23 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89281&oldid=89217 * PixelatedStarfish * (+152)
01:11:44 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89282&oldid=89281 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9) /* Truth Machine */
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02:40:59 <nakilon> test
02:47:13 <nakilon> how about apologizing for repetitive false accusation and defamation of my persona? you are starting politics in this channel and then blatantly lie that it is me who is doing that; both times it was another person -- it's clearly seen in logs, but you repeat the lies about me again and again
02:48:46 <nakilon> you are bringing in politics, you are in fact trolling, you are even insulting me with cursing words, and doing it again and again you pollute the channel and make people believe that your lies are true ,just by continuing doing it and muting me so to I won't prove that you are lying
02:49:04 <imode> wait, you got unbanned?
02:50:10 <nakilon> this is a plain discrimination and op privilege abuse; violation of multiple rules of the network and even the Sweden laws that this network is following
02:51:21 <imode> oh you were never banned properly.
02:51:28 <imode> oerjan: methinks you got the ban mask wrong.
02:51:34 <Corbin> I shouldn't have started that previous politics discussion, I suppose.
02:51:49 <nakilon> the small team of privilege abusing ops behave in an absolutely disrespectfull and discriminating manner
02:52:06 <imode> should've been *!*@user/nakilon
02:53:36 <zzo38> I don't know what are the Swedish laws; I live in Canada.
02:54:01 <nakilon> ops are keeping this channel hateful and encouraging discrimination, repetitively doing trolling, flaming and false accusations of me just because on their personal hate towards my ethnic belonging
02:54:11 <imode> shut the fuck up you absolute insufferable drama queen.
02:54:16 <imode> go to #libera and get k-lined.
02:54:35 <imode> this is not your personal scratch-and-piss post.
02:54:45 <imode> nobody in here is interested in engaging with you.
02:55:02 <imode> and according to network policy, ban evasion is absolutely worth of op intervention.
02:55:06 <imode> so piss off.
02:55:39 <nakilon> hypocritically flaming, expressing their hate, pushing political propaganda, fakes, rumors and defamating me and people I'm associated with
02:55:52 <imode> oh no, cry about it.
02:55:59 <imode> go get the police.
02:56:07 <imode> sue us or something.
02:56:16 <imode> get so angry you put a hole through your monitor.
02:56:21 <imode> jesus.
02:56:41 <nakilon> channel topic says "Welcome" and even wiki probably says that this channel is "friendly" or something like that but it's full of hate produced by just 2-3 persons
02:56:50 <imode> lmao so fuckin leave.
02:57:25 <imode> you russians are so typical. you spit and spout and threaten and anguish over any perceived character attack, well let me make this clear to you: you are a bad person.
02:57:35 <imode> there is no authority to appeal to, you've already been banned and are evading.
02:57:51 <imode> so bitch and whine louder, nobody fucking cares.
02:58:04 <imode> grow some thick skin and shut your fucking face hole.
02:58:18 <nakilon> also repetitive false accusation that I lie
02:58:38 <imode> so leave.
02:58:39 <nakilon> with following mute to make me unable to tell that I don't
02:58:44 <imode> so leave.
02:58:55 <nakilon> tell/prove
02:58:57 <imode> so leave.
02:59:24 <oerjan> oops
02:59:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
02:59:35 <nakilon> if this channel is a personal house of 2-3 hatefull persons write it in the topic
02:59:36 <imode> *!*@/user/nakilon
02:59:50 <imode> kicking him would verify that it works as well.
02:59:55 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!nakilon@user/nakilon.
02:59:58 <nakilon> all accusations towards me are false
03:00:00 <Corbin> nakilon: On one hand, it sounds like your personal circumstances are very stressful and demanding right now; I don't envy you. OTOH, I think that you've overstated the rudeness; you and your associates have been defamed!?
03:00:09 <imode> Corbin: don't bother engaging, I implore you.
03:00:10 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@/user/nakilon.
03:00:14 -!- oerjan has kicked nakilon nakilon.
03:00:19 <imode> thank you.
03:00:29 <imode> been waiting for that since that nutter joined.
03:00:36 <Corbin> imode: Okay. Just consider this: There's no such thing as a good person. After you cool off, please reread the scrollback and consider how you would feel if you were to talk to your past self.
03:00:50 <imode> Corbin: don't know if you've been around but they're a known troll.
03:01:20 <Corbin> imode: Ah, of course, because *they* were known to be a troll, *you* don't have to reread your scrollback and consider your actions~
03:01:22 <oerjan> imode: you are also borderline in my opinion
03:01:40 <imode> oerjan: meh. I was fed up with him.
03:01:55 <imode> I am not tolerant to intolerant people.
03:02:12 <imode> I've banned him from other channels for trying to race bait people.
03:02:18 <imode> and for saying some unsavory things about jews.
03:02:21 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
03:08:25 <oerjan> <nakilon> hypocritically flaming, expressing their hate, pushing political propaganda, fakes, rumors and defamating me and people I'm associated with <-- wow, talk about talking about himself :P
03:08:54 <imode> that's why I haven't been present lately. surprised it took this long.
03:09:52 <imode> the excessive political talk, the livejournal-like self-discussion about said talk.
03:10:20 <imode> there weren't discussions, there was him ranting with an interjection that was shut down.
03:11:03 <oerjan> <imode> you russians are so typical. <-- i want it on the record that i have absolutely no problems with the _other_ russian regular on this channel.
03:11:45 <imode> _neither do I_. however, I've noticed that some subset of the russian population _acts like that_. I have a russian colleague that moved to the US and he's an absolute treat.
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03:20:25 * oerjan looks slightly nervously at the dragon
03:20:43 <imode> nakilon is complaining in #libera to the staff.
03:20:54 <oerjan> i suspected something like that yeah
03:21:15 <int-e> `? password
03:21:18 <HackEso> The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer.
03:21:25 <pikhq> they did indicate with their last ban evasion message batch that they'd do so
03:21:59 <int-e> mmmm dragon
03:26:37 <oerjan> imode: so many events everywhere recently just lampshading to me how most humans live in their own little reality bubbles and get offended when it's pierced. i'm sure i must have my own too.
03:27:22 <oerjan> (i'm not sure "most" shouldn't be "absolutely all")
03:27:33 <int-e> Just don't try to validate your insecurities on random IRC channels and you'll be fine.
03:27:45 <oerjan> :P
03:28:12 <imode> solid advice for life, but I imagine those that do don't have another outlet.
03:28:24 <imode> oerjan: I definitely live in mine, everybody has their own context.
03:28:30 <pikhq> int-e: i mean i did for quite some time and it turned out okay
03:28:32 <imode> I just don't go running to the staff when I'm asked to leave.
03:28:49 <pikhq> but ymmv
03:29:02 <imode> pikhq: you had supportive people I imagine.
03:29:15 <int-e> pikhq: maybe you picked your outlets somewhat more strategically :P
03:29:20 <pikhq> somewhat
03:29:25 <int-e> eh, I'm oversimplifying anyway
03:29:40 <int-e> there's a lot to be said for the ability to back off
03:29:42 <pikhq> i mean i managed to find _romantic partners_ on irc, i dont think im typical
03:29:52 <imode> you wouldn't be alone in that, tbf.
03:31:17 <int-e> oerjan: anyway thanks for stepping in
03:31:25 <oerjan> you're welcome
03:32:00 <pikhq> i seem to recall nakilon was one of the people that went off on a random transphobic tirade a while back, too...
03:32:23 <imode> wouldn't surprise me, I've heard similar bouts from him.
03:34:29 <int-e> Heh... anyone remember the swamp dragons from Discworld that explode when exposed to their own mirror image...
03:34:45 <int-e> (poor things)
03:35:16 <oerjan> hum i remember some swamp dragons but not the part about exploding
03:35:20 <fizzie> Well, in the interests of having all the op opinions for the public record... while I might be a bit on the fence on that last ban's "fairness" (given that someone else did arguably "start" it), I'm not disagreeing with the overall notion that those rants are unwelcome, or arguing that we should keep ignoring them forever.
03:35:26 <fizzie> (I've not been following closely.)
03:35:32 <fizzie> I just think it's a shame, because there *was* clearly actual esolangs content in there, which I think isn't the case for the majority of (the few) people we ban.
03:36:22 <imode> he couldn't separate the political junk from the esolangs junk.
03:38:12 <imode> the diagram of knobheads and programmers is two overlapping circles, I know because I'm one of them. but I don't drag political stuff in here.
03:42:23 <fizzie> I remember some swamp dragons from I think Feet of Clay.
03:43:41 <oerjan> i never got that far
03:44:54 <oerjan> they were sybil's dragons, as i recall.
03:45:05 <oerjan> (just looked up her name)
03:45:41 <oerjan> that rocket powered one that led away the big one
03:45:50 <int-e> Yes, Sybil operates a sanctuary for the things
03:46:10 * int-e forgot what it's called though
03:46:51 <fizzie> I had to look up the book title by searching for "vimes heraldry" because I only remembered it was the same book as where that subplot was.
03:49:38 <oerjan> fizzie: after being tempted to argue with nakilon about whether it was "fair", i realized that such arguing itself was a troll trap. which is why i retroactively changed the reason into just generally trolling.
03:52:59 <oerjan> my last words to him in private were "you know what? it doesn't matter. you are still an annoying troll."
03:53:20 <int-e> dirty secret of moderation: effective moderation doesn't have to be fair (it's more about identifying and removing the nexus of trouble), and trying to be fair may actually have adverse effects (rule lawyering)
03:53:33 <imode> oerjan: treat me as a canary, I sniff that shit out right away. :P
03:54:10 <oerjan> imode: well intellectually i knew this already, i just had to experience it.
03:56:09 <fizzie> I don't know what the definition of "trolling" is, but I feel like it involves an element of insincerity, and I did think those were just sincere beliefs they had about how the world really is, and frustration on how nobody here "gets it". But maybe it's more about the pattern of behaviour instead.
03:56:32 <oerjan> trolling modulo poe's law
03:57:06 <imode> it's the pattern of behavior. it evolved from being insincere to "staying in place as long as possible by weaseling around moderation".
03:57:45 <imode> "how long can I use the people around me against themselves to stay here and keep doing what I'm doing"
03:57:54 <imode> hence the defamation comments, etc.
03:59:21 <imode> making yourself the victim and saying outlandish shit takes people aback. "wait, what? I'm not doing X.." "YOU'RE DOING X! I KNOW IT! YOU'RE DISHONEST HORRIBLE RACIST..." etc.
03:59:32 <imode> and that's a tactic to keep them there.
04:00:03 <imode> folks like that prey on the civility of others. I am not civil. your ass gets the boot if I see that shit.
04:00:29 <int-e> A proper troll could do better.
04:00:56 <imode> I feel like nakilon is a proper troll. he stayed here for long enough.
04:00:58 <oerjan> i am civil, usually. but i am somewhat immune to obviously hypocritical arguments.
04:01:01 <oerjan> (i hope)
04:01:15 <int-e> (I don't think of nakilon as a troll. But I don't have a term for this behavior, apart from projection, which is too generic.)
04:01:16 <imode> the asymmetry of bullshit, oerjan. that's the tactic.
04:01:31 <imode> throw enough out and you'll be scrambling to address it all.
04:01:51 <oerjan> ah yes the less wrongers had a name for that
04:01:52 <imode> it's easier to say obviously wrong/invalid shit than to disprove/address it.
04:01:57 <int-e> Then again my definition of a troll is heavily colored by http://criticalmiss.com/issue9/troll1.html
04:02:49 <imode> yeah that gets people fighting against themselves.
04:04:47 <int-e> Hmm, the November Ponder This! is a continuation to the October one and still very easy.
04:05:21 <int-e> Oh, no exclamation mark? I thought it had one... maybe it was dropped. Or my memory is deceiving me, always a possibility.
04:14:35 <fizzie> I somehow got reminded of #linux.fi of IRCnet, a channel that (in my circles, anyway) was famous for unapproachability alone. I think I lasted for less than a week before getting kicked out, the one time I tried to see what it was like.
04:15:12 <fizzie> (It may have changed since then, this was at least 20 years ago.)
04:24:49 <imode> being unapproachable is different from being tolerant of intolerance.
04:25:12 <imode> the former is being generally hostile, the latter is allowing specifically hostile people in.
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05:26:55 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89283&oldid=89282 * PixelatedStarfish * (+74) /* Program Examples */
05:27:11 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89284&oldid=89283 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) /* Random Number (1-10) */
05:27:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Roc0ast3r * New user account
05:30:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89285&oldid=89274 * Roc0ast3r * (+237) /* Introductions */
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08:06:00 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89286&oldid=89266 * ManiPM * (+32) /* Interpreter in Java */
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08:21:31 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89287&oldid=89286 * ManiPM * (+66)
08:28:17 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89288&oldid=89287 * ManiPM * (+65)
08:31:38 <b_jonas> `? member
08:31:40 <HackEso> I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
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08:33:26 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> <b_jonas> oerjan: that should be a quiet rather than a ban though, just on principle <-- what principle i'm not very good at this" => the principle that we don't restrict the channel to members because we're not discussing our secrets here, so anyone is allowed to listen. and he probably won't abuse being quieted but unbanned.
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10:18:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ngoctnq * New user account
10:23:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89289&oldid=89285 * Ngoctnq * (+163)
10:28:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89290&oldid=89289 * Ngoctnq * (-4) alright, I might be dumb
10:32:56 <esolangs> [[Hanoi Love]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89291&oldid=88904 * Ngoctnq * (+105) /* External resources */
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16:01:11 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89292&oldid=89277 * Not applicable * (+2) PLEASE give me a better name for "solar panels"
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17:10:49 <arseniiv> how unfortunate is to be given a banned IP by your ISP
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19:32:22 <zzo38> Now I defined another bit of the control flag of GLOGG container format, which is set if the stream needs to be discarded by anything that edits/splices it, due to it being sensitive to the structure of the file. (For example, it might be set if this stream is a key frame index for the other streams.)
19:33:49 <zzo38> (Now there are three unused bits.)
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21:08:30 <esolangs> [[Counting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89293&oldid=70401 * Fmbalbuena * (-29) Removed one unnecessary line (Swap() is in pseudo-code ...)
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22:33:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AnonymousStackOverflow * New user account
22:37:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89294&oldid=89290 * AnonymousStackOverflow * (+319) introduced myself
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2021-11-03
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00:13:31 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89295&oldid=89284 * PixelatedStarfish * (+92)
00:13:52 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89296&oldid=89295 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* External Links */
00:14:14 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89297&oldid=89278 * PixelatedStarfish * (-67) /* Unimplemented Languages */
00:14:38 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89298&oldid=89297 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* Implemented Languages */
00:15:00 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89299&oldid=89298 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Unimplemented Languages */
00:15:22 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89300&oldid=89299 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18) /* Nondescript */
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00:25:27 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89301&oldid=89292 * Not applicable * (+232) fix mathjax
00:25:36 <Kit> hey look its me
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00:43:51 <fizzie> I'm just happy the math works at all, I seem to recall setting it up was a little... vague.
00:51:11 <fizzie> (In particular, it's using the WikiMedia Mathoid service, which I couldn't really find a clear statement on whether it's okay or not, or if you should always be running your own Mathoid server, which seemed like a pretty big hassle.)
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02:06:50 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89302&oldid=89296 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* External Links */
02:06:58 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89303&oldid=89302 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* External Links */
02:07:45 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89304&oldid=89300 * PixelatedStarfish * (+56) /* Nondescript */
02:07:56 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89305&oldid=89304 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Nondescript */
02:11:17 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89306&oldid=89303 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Truth Machine */
02:11:31 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89307&oldid=89306 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello World */
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03:16:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89308&oldid=89247 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18) /* N */
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05:53:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LegendaryFartMaster * New user account
06:00:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89309&oldid=89294 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+53)
06:02:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89310&oldid=89309 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+98)
06:02:42 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89311&oldid=87167 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+12) /* Arithmetic */ Corrected the order of operands for arithmetic operators.
06:12:44 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89312&oldid=89311 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+160) Updated Heap Access description, correcting order of operands, and explaining in a little more detail.
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06:53:04 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89313&oldid=89223 * Squidmanescape * (+72)
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07:17:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:LegendaryFartMaster]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89314 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+223) Created page with "Hello! I'm a professional software engineer, who doesnt get enough coding-high from my work alone. I program primarily in Scala, which is an amazing language to write inte..."
07:21:21 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89315&oldid=89313 * Squidmanescape * (+105)
07:22:27 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89316&oldid=89315 * Squidmanescape * (-5)
07:22:40 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89317&oldid=89316 * Squidmanescape * (-1)
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07:33:49 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89318&oldid=89317 * Squidmanescape * (+100)
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07:42:44 <esolangs> [[User:ManiPM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89319&oldid=89254 * ManiPM * (+78)
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07:58:19 <esolangs> [[BS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89320&oldid=54227 * Corbin * (+414) Link to presentation on YT, add infobox and categories, redlink related languages, and clean up code snippet.
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10:32:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vinetwigs * New user account
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11:07:50 <tromp> int-e: can you think of a function to convert "SK numerals" S^n K into Church numerals?
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11:42:14 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89321 * PixelatedStarfish * (+71) Created page with "[[BrainSoup]] is a language that translates any bf equivalents into bf."
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13:20:35 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89322&oldid=89321 * PixelatedStarfish * (+245)
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13:40:43 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89323&oldid=89322 * PixelatedStarfish * (+941)
13:42:18 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89324&oldid=89323 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
13:48:47 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89325&oldid=89324 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
13:50:36 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89326&oldid=89325 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9)
13:50:43 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda/Pandaqwanda's sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89327 * Pandaqwanda * (+127) Created page with "This is a sandbox page for [[User:Pandaqwanda|<b style="border: 5px solid orange; color: orange;"><big>Pandaqwanda</big></b>]]."
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14:09:56 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89328&oldid=89258 * Pandaqwanda * (+104)
14:10:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89329&oldid=89257 * Pandaqwanda * (+109)
14:12:50 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda/Pandaqwanda's sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89330&oldid=89327 * Pandaqwanda * (+114)
14:14:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda/Pandaqwanda's sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89331 * Pandaqwanda * (+274) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<b style="border: 5px solid orange; color: orange;">Tak:<big>Pandaqwanda</big>'s sandbox</b>}} <br>This is a talk page for User:Pandaqwanda/Pandaqwanda's_..."
14:25:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ataberk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89332 * Pandaqwanda * (+235) Created page with "Hello <span style="color:skyblue;">Ataberk</span>, I'm <span style="color:deepPink;">YouYou</span> from Discord. How's it doing? <br> - ~~~~ <br>"
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15:53:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89333&oldid=88994 * Pandaqwanda * (+124)
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16:12:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda/pixeLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89334 * Pandaqwanda * (+340) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<b style="border: 5px solid olive; color:olive;">Talk:<big>pixeLang</big></b>}} <br>This is a talk page for <span style="border: 5px solid olive; color:oliv..."
16:12:51 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda/pixeLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89335 * Pandaqwanda * (+796) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<b style="border: 5px solid olive; color:olive;"><big>pixeLang</big></b>}} <br><span style="border: 5px solid olive; color:olive;"><b><big>pixeLang</big></b..."
16:13:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda/pixeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89336&oldid=89334 * Pandaqwanda * (+30)
16:15:06 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89337&oldid=89328 * Pandaqwanda * (+1583)
16:16:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda/qwandalang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89338 * Pandaqwanda * (+416) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<b style="border: 5px solid black; color:black;">Talk:<big>qwandalang</big></b>}} <br>This is a talk page for User:Pandaqwanda/qwandalang|<span style="bor..."
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16:52:09 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89339&oldid=88059 * Pandaqwanda * (+206) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
17:05:22 <tromp> int-e: i found some very elegant functions for pred and iszero that can do it
17:06:02 <tromp> pred is even simpler than for church numerals
17:11:54 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89340&oldid=89339 * Pandaqwanda * (+653) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
17:16:51 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89341&oldid=88273 * Pandaqwanda * (+118)
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17:54:32 <arseniiv> tromp: IIRC pred for Church numerals is monstrous but that’s fixed when moving to Church—Scott, they recurse providing both f(n−1) as Church ones do and n−1 as Scott ones do, so we can use that last plain n−1 for simplest pred in the world
17:56:49 <arseniiv> of course CS is more complex than C or S alone but I’d think that’s not a bit of complexity to shy from, for instance I have seen the same way in usual formulations of primitive recursive framework, where prim. recursion operator provides both f(n−1) and n−1 in recursive step
18:22:04 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89342&oldid=89326 * PixelatedStarfish * (+34)
18:22:34 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89343&oldid=89342 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
18:26:58 <esolangs> [[FFRISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89344&oldid=87652 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
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18:31:17 <Corbin> This inspired me to look at what Cammy does. I have (comp (pr (comp zero (pair id id)) (comp fst (pair succ id))) snd) for pred. The outside is (comp (pr X F) snd); it's taking the right-hand side of a pair made with primitive recursion.
18:32:53 <Corbin> The inner arrows are \x.(0,0) and \(x,y).(succ x,x) passing a pair of nats through the recursion. The left-hand side of the pair is always n, and the right-hand side is effectively n-1.
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18:49:49 <tromp> i wouldn't call λn.λf.λx.n(λg.λh.h(g f))(λu.x)(λu.u) monstrous...
18:51:03 <Corbin> Ow. Lots of lambdas hurt my head. But I bet that lots of pointfree code hurts everybody else's head, so I shouldn't complain.
18:51:21 <imode> lots of indirection hurts the head.
18:51:32 <imode> because we strain our necks to keep track of the wires.
18:51:38 <Corbin> The variable names help a lot. Seeing `\nfx.` at the beginning is a clue.
18:53:04 <tromp> the cute thing about SK-numerals is that pred 0 gives you a genuine -1. such that succ -1 is 0 again...
18:53:46 <tromp> but the iszero test only works on nonnegative SK-numerals
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19:15:44 <Yes> hello everyone
19:15:49 <Yes> how's it going
19:16:00 <riv> jo
19:16:02 <riv> hi
19:16:09 <Corbin> Trying to figure out why Lilypond won't draw my staves.
19:16:14 <Yes> what
19:16:46 <Corbin> Lilypond is a music typesetter. For some reason, it's not drawing all of the staves of music notation. It's drawing the title and the footer and the chords, but not the notes.
19:16:50 <Corbin> How are you?
19:17:05 <Yes> i'm fine, what about you?
19:17:44 <b_jonas> Corbin: so it's also not drawing anything that would go on the staffs, like the notes and bars?
19:18:02 <Corbin> I'm trying to get Lilypond to draw music files that I haven't touched in nearly a decade. Past Corbin did not leave any notes, which is typical.
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19:18:41 <Corbin> b_jonas: Exactly, yes. I figure that the header layout has changed, and now I have to explicitly include stuff that used to be implicit.
19:27:02 <Corbin> Yep, removing about half the header causes everything to work. Just gotta read the manual and see exactly how to fix it up, but I guess I'm in business.
19:27:18 <Corbin> Lilypond is so simple when it works, but it's so brittle and breaks easily. Just like playing music, I guess~
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19:56:00 <APic> Gute Nacht!
19:57:13 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89345 * Heptor * (+597) Created page with " '''Lananang''' is a <fill me in> ==Overview== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Instruction !! Description |- | <code>n<128></code> || A number variable with the value 128. Number..."
20:00:27 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89346&oldid=89345 * Heptor * (+154)
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21:10:49 <riv> a non fungeoid token language
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2021-11-04
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05:00:37 <int-e> tromp: Ah, Sx(Kz)y = xyz is kind of neat
05:27:34 <int-e> tromp: F = \x\y.y; toChurch = \n\f\z. let A = \p. p (\a\b\_\p. p a (f b)) z in n A A F;
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05:43:27 <int-e> based on S x A B = x B (A B), so if A, B, and A B are all similar then this gives us a nice recursion) and the syntactic accident <F,X> <F,Y> = <F,Y> F X = F F Y X so we can use pairs <F,_> for A, B and let F F Y X reduce to some <F,Z> to fulfil the shape requirement. The concrete instance uses Z = f Y.
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07:08:22 <int-e> Oh wow, I messed up my definition of K, wow. n A A F should be n A (A A) F instead.
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07:19:58 <int-e> (the other one gives the predecessor instead which is kind of neat)
07:21:46 <tromp> int-e: that's really cool! and doesn't even need recursion.
07:22:12 <tromp> mine did: to_church = \toc\n. iszero n C0 (C_succ (to_church (pred n)))
07:22:44 <tromp> that should be to_church = \n. iszero n C0 (C_succ (to_church (pred n)))
07:23:59 <tromp> iszero = \n. n F I S K
07:24:34 <tromp> pred = \n\x\y.n (K y) x
07:25:38 <int-e> yeah it's always nice to get the duplication that recursion requires for free
07:29:17 <tromp> hmm, i thought yours would be smaller in CL size
07:29:50 <int-e> I'm only looking at BLC sizes
07:30:08 <int-e> CL size is too volatile and usually bigger anyway
07:31:06 <int-e> to_church = \n\f\z. let tc = \n. isZero_ n z (f (tc (pred_ n))) in tc n; is *a bit* smaller in BLC than the C0/C_succ thing.
07:31:28 <int-e> sorry, I renamed iszero and pred to fit my test file
07:32:50 <int-e> With CL, that's probably not true... because adding and using extra arguments is so expensive.
07:33:51 <tromp> sometimes hand optimized bracket abstraction can improve things
07:34:03 <int-e> tromp: So in that spirit, toChurch = \n. let A = \p. p (\a\b\_\p. p a (C_succ b)) C0 in n A (A A) F may be better for CL.
07:34:57 <tromp> oh yes, much shorter
07:38:12 <tromp> i came across these numerals in Wolfram's book on combinators
07:38:19 <int-e> is it worth to manually replace n A (A A) by S n A A?
07:38:41 <tromp> https://www.wolfram-media.com/products/combinators-a-centennial-view.html
07:39:22 <int-e> (that looks like a rare pattern so I doubt you'd implement it in an automatic converter)
07:39:49 <int-e> but I don't know
07:40:04 <tromp> no, that S n A A doesn't make a difference
07:41:20 <int-e> Ah, right... bracket abstraction will act the same either way.
07:41:45 <tromp> Stephen Wolfram only came up with a size 181 combinator for to_church
07:41:49 <int-e> \A. n A (A A) -> S n I
07:42:24 <tromp> apparently based on applying n to Church numerals 2 and 3
07:43:33 <tromp> that's S n A, not S n I ?!
07:46:33 <tromp> i wonder if these should be called SK numerals or Fibonacci numerals
07:46:41 <int-e> Oh, right, I stopped too early. It'll be S n (S I I), vs. \A. S n A A = S (S n) I. So it's a bit unclear which is better.
07:47:16 <tromp> since they satisfy (n+2) x y = (n x y) ((n+1) x y)
07:47:52 <int-e> (you have two I's in the former, but n is at a deeper depth in the latter.)
07:48:30 <int-e> Yeah they do have a Fibonacci vibe.
07:48:55 <tromp> the number of y's in n x y is Fibonacci(n)
07:49:17 <tromp> this just replaces sum in the recurrence by application
07:49:20 <int-e> Already visible in S x A B = x B (A B)
07:51:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89351&oldid=89308 * Elmusfire * (+16) Added new language
07:52:17 <esolangs> [[Rrreplace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89352 * Elmusfire * (+6648) rrreplace is an esoteric language that uses string substitution in a functional way.
07:53:53 <esolangs> [[Rrreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89353&oldid=89352 * Elmusfire * (+1) typo
07:57:38 <int-e> tromp: Hmm, I don't think I have you abstraction elimination code... what sizes do you get for to_church and toChurch?
07:58:35 <tromp> well, i have to manually adjust for the SK Y combinator of size 12:(
07:58:50 <int-e> or does `blc comb` mostly do it?
07:59:08 <tromp> then my to_church comes out at 69
08:00:02 <tromp> and yours at 60
08:00:27 <tromp> i actually use ./blc bcl and divide output length by 3
08:01:14 <int-e> ah, we're just counting combinators.
08:01:55 <tromp> yes, but we could count bits as well. which is nearly purely linear
08:02:07 <tromp> at 3n-1 bits
08:02:19 <int-e> and I need to use the right `succ` too
08:02:37 <tromp> the newline at the end of bcl output bumps that right up to 3n
08:02:50 <int-e> (\n\f\x. n f (f x) is worse than \n\f\x. f (n f x) in CL)
08:03:18 <tromp> yes, i use C_succ = \n\f\x.f (n f x);
08:03:27 <tromp> for that reason
08:03:47 <int-e> bcl just doesn't care
08:03:58 <int-e> oops
08:04:00 <int-e> blc I mean
08:04:48 <int-e> I guess I should prefer \n\f\x. f (n f x) for beaing lazier.
08:05:16 <tromp> yes, it's always seemed the more proper order to me
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08:05:34 <tromp> applying the extra f at the end rather than at the start
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08:12:08 <int-e> anyway nice to see a Wolfram book that's not reinventing science :P
08:13:06 <int-e> "thought-provoking and broadly accessible" I can believe... I imagine that's also actually true for the ANKS of book.
08:20:28 <tromp> maybe you want to go after his $20k prize: https://combinatorprize.org/
08:21:28 <int-e> Hmm, does he cite Johannes Waldmann's thesis?
08:22:11 <tromp> he's not much into citing other people:(
08:23:13 <tromp> but he does have Waldmann in the references
08:23:59 <int-e> (it's almost exclusively on the S combinator, https://www.imn.htwk-leipzig.de/~waldmann/pub/)
08:24:13 <int-e> (no anchor, sad)
08:25:30 <int-e> Yeah attributing the idea that this might be TC to himself doesn't feel right to me at all.
08:26:18 <tromp> did Johannes come up with that 39x39 table?
08:27:08 <tromp> to determine halting behaviour of S-only combinators?
08:28:15 <tromp> his book just says: What was discovered in 2000 is that there's a complete way to test.... and then gives the table
08:29:31 <tromp> for rule 110 universality, he says: with much of the heavy lifting done by a then-research assistent of mine
08:29:38 <tromp> not even a name!
08:30:10 <int-e> Hmm there's no table of states in the thesis, I think. He defines lots of auxiliary regular tree languages. I've never thought to count them...
08:33:28 <int-e> 2000 matches The Combinator S, Information and Computation 159, 2-21 (2000)... hmm. have I seen that paper...
08:35:11 <tromp> yes,that's one of his 2 references
08:35:45 <tromp> the other is a coauthored 2010 paper on local termination
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08:36:58 <tromp> oh, he does name Johannes at the chapter end
08:37:32 <int-e> the paper has a grammar, so the table is Wolfram's own doing, I think.
08:38:51 <tromp> he mentions Joerg Endrullis
08:39:18 <tromp> for "The detailed version that I used here"
08:39:27 <int-e> yeah not unexpected in this context
08:40:43 <tromp> one of the coauthors of the 2010 paper
08:49:02 <int-e> Anyway I'm not going down that rabbit hole :)
08:51:20 <int-e> (I've already managed to stay away from the question whether the word problem for S is decidable for 10+ years)
10:23:05 <tromp> i'll write some sort of blog article about SK numerals...
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14:29:57 <Corbin> tromp, int-e: S isn't complete on its own. Wolfram doesn't accept the folklore proof for some reason, probably because it would make him look like a dunce.
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14:39:24 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89359&oldid=89358 * 4gboframram * (+11) /* Brief Specification */
14:40:58 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89360&oldid=89359 * 4gboframram * (+8) /* Computational Class */
15:24:56 <tromp> Corbin: what folklore proof are you referring to? S is not complete because you can't define K in terms of S? Wolfram recognizes that of course
15:32:17 <int-e> yeah part of the exercise is undoubtedly to come up with an encoding for inputs and an acceptance condition; maybe even an evaluation order
15:32:49 <tromp> Wolfram wonders if there are some efficient functions <embed, detect, extract> such that embed maps an SK term to an S term, detect maps an S term to a boolean, and extract maps an S term to an SK term, and if SK term t has a normal form nf, then you can reduce embed t to some term s for which detect s and extract s = nf (or something like that)
15:34:13 <tromp> this seems exceedingly unlikely to be possible, but i don't know how to disprove it
15:34:20 <int-e> https://combinatorprize.org/ should really include a proper problem statement (did I miss one?)
15:36:05 <tromp> check https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2021/06/1920-2020-and-a-20000-prize-announcing-the-s-combinator-challenge/
15:37:16 <tromp> the <embed, detect, extract> statement is my own interpretation for what he wants
15:39:09 <int-e> oh the full 39x39 table is actually online too https://content.wolfram.com/uploads/sites/43/2020/12/sw1203img440.png
15:39:14 <tromp> you can intrepret "efficient" either as polytime, or more generously as any primitive recursive running time
15:39:15 <int-e> for whatever that's worth
15:40:06 <tromp> and the reduction strategy used in the above should also be efficiently computable
15:40:08 <Corbin> Part of the problem is that Wolfram keeps saying "universal" instead of "Turing-complete". This is part of his effort to avoid actually citing real mathematics.
15:41:02 <Corbin> For consider the Church-Turing thesis. Given two Turing-complete systems, we should be able to write emulators for each system in the other system, so that we can emulate a system on itself by stacking the two emulators together.
15:41:18 <tromp> it's funny how his books are full of "it seems that", "it appears that", "it looks like" .... :)
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15:41:48 <Corbin> So if S is "universal", then there should be emulations SK -> S -> SK and S -> SK -> S which preserve halting.
15:42:32 <Corbin> The latter is trivial with a handwave. So it's the former that we want; how do we emulate SK in S? And so that's what Wolfram has focused on.
15:43:14 <Corbin> But now, notice that we still want anything we map from SK into S to come back out in SK working the same way. And *that* gives us leverage, because now we can use folklore about missing K and I to argue that S is not Turing-complete.
15:43:37 <tromp> but it's a non-standard notion of emulation, as he allows a terminating computation to be emulated by a non-terminating one
15:44:53 <Corbin> Yeah, that's kind of a problem, isn't it? I wonder how he imagines checking whether a computation is complete.
15:45:07 <int-e> That's rather unrestricted (the compiler/detector/decoder scheme), so yeah I don't see how a negative proof could work.
15:46:14 <Corbin> As soon as we've done this, then all of the proofs that people give in the comments to Wolfram's challenge post are back on the table, and at least some of them sound convincing enough.
15:48:01 <int-e> How do you prevent this... encode TM in the stabilized part of a non-terminating term. The detector runs the TM for <current size of term> steps, signals success on nontermination; the decoder also runs the TM, extracts input.
15:48:09 <int-e> Now... if I put it like that it's clearly cheating.
15:48:43 <int-e> But neither of the parts is Turing-Complete by itself.
15:49:33 <int-e> The S combinator evolution is an essential part if it's ultimately just used as fuel.
15:52:05 <tromp> int-e: cute exploit:-)
15:53:20 <int-e> ugh
15:53:25 <int-e> s/nontermination/termination/
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15:54:07 <Corbin> Hm. Here's another approach. From category theory, it's provable that Turing-complete computation cannot be reversed. But because S doesn't forget values, we should be able to reverse a sequence of applications in a tree with only S combinators.
15:54:37 <int-e> This kind of thing is a hard problem to state if you don't want to severely restrict the encoder and decoder.
15:55:33 <tromp> it's easy to make TM reversible with an extra tape
15:56:09 <tromp> or an extra head
15:56:14 <Corbin> A fair point. Similarly, while sets and functions aren't reversible, sets and relations are reversible. The chosen model matters a lot.
15:56:28 <Corbin> This is another reason why "universal" is a weasel-word for Wolfram.
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16:02:47 <int-e> Well, S contraction isn't confluent. S(SSS)SS -> SSSS(SS) -> SS(SS)(SS) -> S(SS)(SS(SS)) <- S(SS)(SSSS) and neither S(SSS)SS nor S(SS)(SSSS) can be contracted further.
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16:03:05 <int-e> So that's an obstacle to reversal.
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16:04:54 <Corbin> Oh! Okay. Then I have been too facile about this. If S isn't confluent on its own, then that means that we need to consider this non-deterministically.
16:05:44 <int-e> Hmm... do you accept the proof that rule 110 is universal? I don't think I do. I think providing an infinite background pattern is too much freedom.
16:06:45 <Corbin> I don't think it's any different than allowing a Turing machine to take an input, or allowing a Wang tileset to start with a border on one edge/corner.
16:07:16 <int-e> inputs are finite though
16:08:11 <int-e> Corbin: S-reduction is confluent though.
16:08:13 <Corbin> That's fair. An infinite *repeating* background pattern would be fine.
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16:08:58 <Corbin> Oh, sorry; what's contraction?
16:09:37 <int-e> Uh, the inverse of reduction here... why did I pick the term "contraction"...
16:09:58 <int-e> Ah because S x y z -> x z (y z) the right-hand side is usually bigger than the left-hand side.
16:10:14 <int-e> So inspired by size.
16:10:30 <Corbin> Oh, okay. It doesn't have to be confluent to be reversible. What I'm getting at is that, because all of the data is still there, even a non-deterministic reversible approach is possible.
16:10:35 <int-e> But technically wrong, I should've said "expansion".
16:11:05 <tromp> or "unreduction" :-)
16:11:11 <Corbin> If there's a K combinator, then the non-constant input is forgotten, and in an untyped context, we can't just range over what that input might have been; it could have been *anything*. So we can't non-deterministically go backwards.
16:11:32 <Corbin> Going backwards with S is merely exponential. It's expensive but finite to explore.
16:12:40 <int-e> Right. tromp's argument was more to the point anyway.
16:12:58 <int-e> (that reversibility isn't an obstacle to universality)
16:15:20 <Corbin> It's an obstacle to asserting that something has been *computed*. I'm sure you've heard the argument of the waterfall computer, which "computes" by permuting the positions of atoms; but in order to actually extract computation from a permutation, we must label the inputs and the outputs, and the manipulation of those labels is the actual computation.
16:16:17 <Corbin> Quantum computers only compute because of how the Born rule works; we measure qubits at the end, irreversibly altering their state.
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16:17:56 <int-e> Corbin: Well, an extractor could potentially be as simple as labeling the term with a top-down tree automaton and discarding the subtrees for certain trees.
16:18:40 <Corbin> int-e: Yes, but I view that as just plugging in a K at the top and letting the S terms apply that K over and over, which is known to build all of SKI.
16:18:41 <int-e> If that works (big if, obviously) I'd accept that the actual computation happens in the S calculus.
16:19:44 <int-e> I doubt that you can capture that in a finite tree automaton.
16:20:45 <int-e> (Gut feeling, no proof.)
16:22:49 <Corbin> int-e: Here's a large pile of statements; the important part is under "Applicative Systems and Computable Maps". https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2019/08/turing_categories.html If S and K are present, even in a way where S was pre-applied and freeze-dried and K was only mixed in later, then we get a partial combinatory algebra and etc.
16:23:25 <Corbin> The root of that is ultimately https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smn_theorem and so that should be our focus. Can we use S to implement Kleene's projections?
16:24:38 <Corbin> Well, K is one of Kleene's projections! It's the projection which takes two arguments and returns the first one. And it's known that S can't implement K.
16:25:53 <Corbin> This completes a proof statement which convinces me that Wolfram's conjecture is false; every Turing category has a K combinator.
16:28:11 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89361&oldid=89360 * 4gboframram * (-9) /* Brief Specification */
16:29:44 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89362&oldid=89361 * 4gboframram * (+1) /* Brief Specification */
16:41:01 <int-e> A strong counterpoint is that BCW is Turing-complete and also lacks K. The idea is to replace every value v by a pair <v,g> where g collects any garbage that would have to be deleted, while the first component just acts as in ordinary lambda calculus/combinatory logic.
16:41:29 <int-e> (as usual pairs are encoded by <x,y> = \p. p x y)
16:51:34 <Corbin> I haven't seen this before and I'm having trouble working it out myself. Could you show me how I or K are encoded?
16:53:34 <int-e> something like http://paste.debian.net/1218221/
16:54:04 <int-e> that feels overcomplicated, actually
16:55:01 <int-e> Note on variable names: px = pair encoding x; x = the original x; gx = garbage associated with x.
16:55:37 <Corbin> Oh. I'll keep working it out for myself, but I was hoping for expressions in B, C, and W.
16:55:51 <int-e> That would be totally uninstructive
16:56:39 <Corbin> It would be totally constructive, though.
16:59:58 <Corbin> int-e: I want to buy your argument. Even with it, I think I can refute the idea that this would work for S. The problem is, roughly, implementing S with S.
17:01:24 <Corbin> Let's suppose for contradiction that there's two expressions in S, called big-S and big-K, which implement SK and are therefore make S universal. In order to do this, we'd use the same application for big-S and big-K as with just S, except maybe our application needs an intermediate glue, also made wholly of S, in order to function.
17:02:25 <Corbin> There's a smallest such big-S and big-K, since we're working with finite expressions. But the smallest big-S is just S itself. This reduces the problem to whether big-K can be implemented with just S, which is just the question of whether S alone implements K.
17:06:48 <int-e> Oh I need I as well, don't I.
17:15:39 <tromp> yes, to the extent that I = W K
17:17:10 <tromp> but isn't I also B C C ?
17:18:16 <int-e> How? B C C x = C (C x)
17:18:39 <tromp> B C C x y z = C (C x) y z = C x z y = x y z
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17:25:26 <int-e> Corbin: so, [K] = C (W (B (C I) (B (C I) (C (B C (B (B C) (W (B (C (B B B)) (B (B (B (C I))) (B (B B) (B B))))))) I)))) I (B C (C I))
17:27:22 <int-e> yay it's actually correct.
17:29:35 <int-e> This implementation isn't very good, it encodes W as B W (C (B B C) I) :)
17:31:22 <Corbin> Okay, and that's with I = B C C as above. Makes sense. The size of the trees is definitely foreboding.
17:32:15 <int-e> But unsurprisingly the bad encoding of W itself doesn't matter.
17:32:18 <Corbin> Consider me convinced. Good work; thank you.
17:33:51 <int-e> Unfortunately, I = B C C only works if it's actually applied to 3 more arguments.
17:35:15 <Corbin> But that's fine, isn't it? Because at the top, we have a pair which needs one argument to eliminate the pair, and then two more arguments to invoke the LHS and throw away the RHS?
17:36:20 <int-e> So what about the first component of the pair
17:36:26 <int-e> we know nothing about that.
17:36:40 <int-e> But it's the value we actually want to have in the end.
17:40:06 <Corbin> Hm, I guess.
17:51:02 <int-e> tromp: so I hacked BCWI(plus K if erasure is present) abstraction elimination in the blc tool... but I did it by extending the CL datatype with extra constructors for I, B, C, and W. Should I commit or is that too dirty?
17:52:18 <int-e> I guess I can make a pull request instead and leave it for discussion.
17:52:33 <tromp> please commit as a different branch for now
17:54:36 <tromp> need to think about best approach. maybe a new datatype with some conversion operators?
17:54:37 <int-e> yeah did that just now
17:55:04 <int-e> I mean I pushed a new branch and made a PR for discussion
17:55:47 <int-e> I also know almost nothing about this combinator basis... like, are there any interesting optimizations?
17:58:06 <int-e> Anyway, at least this way the code won't be lost.
18:02:41 <Corbin> Huh. By complete coincidence, I just found https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/50688/52212
18:03:17 <Corbin> Is the answer just C? And then adding K makes for a better encoding.
18:03:50 <Corbin> int-e: I think you could provide a complete answer here, if you'd like the karma. I only feel qualified to leave a comment.
18:05:21 <int-e> I have no SE account. I also lack intuition for how essential or not C is in all of this.
18:06:57 <int-e> What I do know is that B, C, and S have very clear roles in abstraction elimination. Assuming x occurs in M N we have [\x. M N] -> B M [\x. N] if x doesn't occur in M; [\x. M N] -> C [\x. M] N if x doesn't occur in N; [\x. M N] -> S [\x. M] [\x. N] otherwise.
18:08:24 <int-e> And you can get close enough to S from W, B, and C: S a b = W (B (C a) b)
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19:12:50 <b_jonas> “<tromp> but it's a non-standard notion of emulation, as he allows a terminating computation to be emulated by a non-terminating one” => I don't think that's much of a problem. In PCs before the ATX chasis, programs couldn't turn the power supply off, nor did they have a power-saving mode for the CPU or motherboard, and often had no power saving mode for the CRT either. The main power supply and CRT
19:12:57 <b_jonas> could only be turned off externally, with no control from a program. Would you argue that those old computers can't do powerful enough computations because they can't decide to halt depending on the result of a computation? I don't think so. (If you want to say that they're not powerful because they have little RAM, that's fine.)
19:18:43 <b_jonas> Or, for a more mathematical argument, consider Underload without the ! and S primitives, which can't delete anything, but is still Turing-complete.
19:20:07 <int-e> or that stupid rule 110 cellular automaton
19:20:11 <int-e> wich just keeps going
19:20:12 <int-e> and going
19:20:14 <int-e> and going
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19:38:18 <b_jonas> “But the smallest big-S is just S itself.” => are you saying that if you already know how to do arithmetic with dollars, then you can't simulate doing arithmetic with dollars and cents, because the smallest thing that can simulate a dollar is a dollar itself, and there's nothing that can simulate a cent if you choose that?
19:38:29 <b_jonas> Corbin: ^
19:42:40 <b_jonas> “or that stupid rule 110 cellular automaton / wich just keeps going” => hmm. if https://esolangs.org/wiki/Infinite_Vector was defined without the :-( operator, so that programs can't halt and in nontrivial programs the memory keeps growing and can never shrink, would you still count it as Turing-complete?
19:47:54 <int-e> btw I'm fine with that aspect of rule 110, it's really the infinite intial state that leaves me dissatisfied
19:49:14 <riv> no one has managed to remove that?
19:49:29 <riv> i guess people aren't really interested in rule 30
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19:49:36 <int-e> not that I'm aware of.
19:50:17 <int-e> But I could easily have missed it... I largely don't care.
19:50:50 <riv> it seems like nobody really studies these 1d CAs
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19:53:07 <int-e> maybe 2D CAs are just more exciting to look at
19:54:13 <b_jonas> a finite control pointer register machine that allocates immutable conses on the heap also can't "forget" anything, though it can lose conses in a way that a garbage collector could free them, and it is Turing-complete.
20:12:02 <int-e> tromp: oh you made a suggestion, that sounds reasonable. will revisit tomorrow
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20:14:33 <Corbin> b_jonas: That's a really funny analogy, thanks.
20:26:05 <b_jonas> there is some difference in scale though. Infinite Vector has to at least double its memory usage in every loop, while a pointer machine might cons logarithmically rarely.
20:26:41 <b_jonas> or wait
20:26:53 <b_jonas> maybe it's not logarithmic, only nth root if you have n+O(1) registers
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23:08:19 <tromp> SK numerals article up at https://john-tromp.medium.com/sk-numerals-9ad1b5634b28
23:08:23 <tromp> feedback welcome
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01:10:58 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Or, for a more mathematical argument, consider Underload without the ! and S primitives, which can't delete anything, but is still Turing-complete. <-- iirc the first proof i made in that section is pretty much the same kind of junk-based thing int-e gave for BCW (which i hadn't heard about)
01:11:18 <oerjan> except the junk is put on the stack
01:12:13 <oerjan> now i somewhat wonder if you could also apply the later "two ways of running a term, one of which self-deletes" method to BCW
01:13:24 <oerjan> *first such proof
01:54:47 <b_jonas> oerjan: Smullyan's bird book talks about BCW, but I don't think it gives a full proof
01:56:26 <b_jonas> it also doesn't tell whether it's Turing-complete – it only says that from the BCW basis you can get any lambda term of a certain form, namely one with applications only on variables inside the lambdas, and with all bound variables used at least once
01:56:59 <b_jonas> all of that IIRC, I haven't checked the book even though it's within arm's reach of me
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06:01:03 <int-e> Corbin: Here's a tested translation to BCWI: https://paste.debian.net/1218287/
06:02:52 <int-e> what I did yesterday was flawed... it's not really possible to extract all the garbage to the top level (some subterms may not even participate in the evaluation to head normal form).
06:04:45 <int-e> But it's also simpler than what I tried yesterday in that application is actually translated as application.
06:06:42 <int-e> (This relies on the <F,X> <G,Y> = F G Y X that I spelled out yesterday.)
06:11:18 <int-e> Anyway, I would be surprised if this kind of direct simulation of combinatory logic works for S. But I can't rule it out; lack of erasure simply isn't enough.
06:24:52 <Corbin> int-e: Very cool.
06:25:13 <Corbin> I still like my argument from last time about implementing S with S, but I'm not any closer to making it rigorous.
06:29:08 <int-e> Oh the x z I I (y z g h) from [S] can be demystified using that pair identiy: it's equal to <x,I> <z,I> (<y,h> <z,g>)
06:29:57 <int-e> where I, g, and h are garbage we don't care about.
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06:55:40 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJi0xeNI6ho
07:04:55 * int-e eyes that links suspiciously
07:06:02 <int-e> "436,906 Hz redstone clock" hmm might actually be amusing
07:07:44 <int-e> GoL has a similar thing where people searched for the fastest possible glider gun
07:12:05 <int-e> cf. https://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Period-14_glider_gun
07:12:56 <riv> successive gliders cannot be closer than 14 generations
07:12:58 <riv> COol
07:13:36 <riv> funny that you can inject with spaceships somehow
07:13:42 <riv> that there's enough space for that
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08:11:50 <int-e> (They automated User:A)
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2021-11-06
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01:47:35 <oerjan> <b_jonas> it also doesn't tell whether it's Turing-complete – it only says that from the BCW basis you can get any lambda term of a certain form, namely one with applications only on variables inside the lambdas, and with all bound variables used at least once <-- i think that must be BCWI. i got nerd sniped into thinking about what it's with _just_ BCW.
01:47:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: aren't those the same?
01:48:06 <b_jonas> like can't you get I from BCW?
01:48:10 <oerjan> nope.
01:48:15 <b_jonas> I see
01:48:25 <b_jonas> probably BCWI then
01:49:15 <oerjan> you can, i think, get a fixpoint-based almost-version that shuffles itself away: I' a b = a (I' b)
01:49:40 <b_jonas> yeah, it's BCWI or equivalently BCSI
01:49:59 <oerjan> without that, the best you can get is int-e's BCC x y z = x y z
01:50:37 <oerjan> and that's almost the general rule i found: you get any closed lambda expression in which any innermost expression contains at least two applications.
01:51:08 <b_jonas> that is reasonably close, I guess
01:51:18 <oerjan> you will note that all of B, C and W have that property, and you cannot get rid of it
01:51:19 <b_jonas> shoudln't impact TC-ness
01:59:01 <oerjan> indeed. you have perfect S: from int-e's S a b = W (B (C a) b) you can eliminate further to B W (B (C a)) b = B (B W) (B B C) a b
02:01:31 <oerjan> um *any closed lambda expression using all parameter variables at least once and ...
02:04:23 <oerjan> also, i suspect BCWI can implement underload's :()^~ , giving a way to do TC-ness without junk.
02:04:50 <oerjan> (maybe * and a as well now i think about it)
02:05:14 <oerjan> (with a pair-based stack)
02:07:18 <oerjan> or one might implement some K-elimination similar to my underload method directly.
02:09:49 <oerjan> perhaps one could use B C C = \f x y -> f x y and C = \f x y -> f y x as booleans to distinguish the self-deletion and running modes
02:10:20 <oerjan> and maybe manage with just B C W
02:12:09 <oerjan> although, what should the API for that be
02:13:05 <oerjan> ...someone has to have done something like this for LC already
02:48:18 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89386&oldid=89234 * DigitalDetective47 * (+2) /* Left-Right March */ Fixed header level
03:22:42 <zzo38> Although there are some different GUI widget set libraries some of which are portable, is there the interface which is independent from the implementation? (I could try to make up such a thing if there isn't one or if the existing ones are not good enough, I suppose.)
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07:26:08 <zzo38> (I mean for example a common .h file so that the same API function calls are used but you can substitute a different implementation and it can work)
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09:03:20 <int-e> oerjan: fwiw, the BCC was tromp's not mine
09:10:29 <int-e> `? bcc
09:10:32 <HackEso> bcc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:10:36 <int-e> `? bbc
09:10:38 <HackEso> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, villages in Norway, and inventors of all things. Taneb invented it.
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11:45:48 <tromp> bcc.nl is a Dutch electronics & home appliance chain
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13:54:49 <b_jonas> `? bbc
13:54:51 <HackEso> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, villages in Norway, and inventors of all things. Taneb invented it.
14:00:21 <fizzie> `slashlearn bcc//The "Bcc:" field (where the "Bcc" means "Blind Carbon Copy") contains addresses of recipients of the message whose addresses are not to be revealed to other recipients of the message.
14:00:24 <HackEso> Learned 'bcc': The "Bcc:" field (where the "Bcc" means "Blind Carbon Copy") contains addresses of recipients of the message whose addresses are not to be revealed to other recipients of the message.
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16:37:10 <Melvar> Amusing thing that happened a few days ago: Someone asked if a less readable way to write a simple conditional function in Haskell was more efficient, and someone responded that the two ways might well compile to the same thing. The latter person then went to actually check the Core for those two functions, and found that GHC replaced the second function with a reference to the first.
16:37:24 <Melvar> So not only did they compile to the same thing, but the compiler noticed and deduplicated them.
16:39:34 <Corbin> Nice.
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17:08:47 <esolangs> [[User:Otesunki]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89387 * Otesunki * (+83) initial commit
17:09:03 <esolangs> [[User:Otesunki]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89388&oldid=89387 * Otesunki * (+3) im dumb
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17:33:52 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89389&oldid=89377 * Rphii * (+30) fix command list
17:39:40 <esolangs> [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89390&oldid=88723 * LarhoCherqi * (-86) Changed the interpreter link into a compiler link
18:19:00 <Taneb> `? A
18:19:01 <HackEso> A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
18:31:18 <Melvar> `? Å
18:31:20 <HackEso> ​Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
18:32:23 <Melvar> `? Å
18:32:24 <HackEso> Å? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:32:55 <Melvar> I see no normalization is being done.
18:33:29 <Melvar> (Second one is A + combining ring)
19:08:18 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89391&oldid=89350 * PixelatedStarfish * (+155)
19:09:53 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89392&oldid=89391 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10)
19:10:21 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89393&oldid=89392 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
19:19:09 <b_jonas> Melvar: some normalization is done on wisdom names, just not that kind of normalization
19:19:25 <b_jonas> `? å
19:19:27 <HackEso> ​Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
19:19:36 <b_jonas> `? ä
19:19:37 <HackEso> ​Ä is a Swedish geographical feature.
19:19:41 <b_jonas> `? ã
19:19:42 <HackEso> ​ã? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:21:21 <b_jonas> ``` for x in à á â æ ð ñ õ ö ø ü þ ÿ; do \? "$x"; done
19:21:32 <HackEso> ​à? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ á? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ â? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ æ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ ð? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ ñ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ õ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ ö? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ ø is not going anywhere. \ ü is the ridiculously happy second derivative of the letter ‘u’ with respect to time. \ þ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ ÿ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:22:08 <b_jonas> `? ő
19:22:09 <HackEso> ​ő? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:50:58 <fizzie> `cbt lowercase
19:50:59 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Z a-z | LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 sed 'y/ØÅÆŒÞÐÄÖÜÁÉÍÓÚÝŁ/øåæœþðäöüáéíóúýł/'
19:51:04 <fizzie> That's a very particular lowercasing.
19:57:41 <b_jonas> interesting. why doesn't it do the A-Za-z part in the sed transliteration too?
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20:07:52 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/learn # does that use the same casefolding rule?
20:07:53 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "$HACKENV/wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "$HACKENV/wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
20:08:02 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/lowercase
20:08:04 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Z a-z | LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 sed 'y/ØÅÆŒÞÐÄÖÜÁÉÍÓÚÝŁ/øåæœþðäöüáéíóúýł/'
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22:06:14 <int-e> b_jonas: you'd have to spell out all 26 letters
22:08:52 <b_jonas> whoa... the sed y statement doesn't do hyphenated ranges?
22:11:23 <b_jonas> I see :(
22:25:33 <Riviera> nope only literal characters
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2021-11-07
00:07:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:15:03 <oerjan> `? bcc
00:15:08 <HackEso> The "Bcc:" field (where the "Bcc" means "Blind Carbon Copy") contains addresses of recipients of the message whose addresses are not to be revealed to other recipients of the message.
00:15:19 <oerjan> isn't this unnaturally accurate for wisdom
00:18:06 <oerjan> `dowg ä
00:18:08 <imode> that's a straight up copy from a dictionary.
00:18:09 <HackEso> 10656:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4}; mv \'{\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5}\'
00:18:29 <fizzie> It's a straight up copy from RFC 2822, to be specific.
00:18:29 <oerjan> hm
00:18:33 <oerjan> ic
00:18:58 <imode> but is it a _blind_ copy.
00:19:03 <fizzie> And yeah, well, maybe a few of the entries can be actually accurate, just to catch people off guard.
00:19:16 <oerjan> this dowg is a bit hard to interpret
00:19:25 <imode> what's dowg.
00:19:39 <oerjan> HackEso's command to show wisdom history
00:19:51 <imode> ah lol.
00:20:29 <oerjan> `` echo \xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4
00:20:30 <HackEso> xc3x84,xc3xa4
00:20:52 <imode> quotes needed maybe?
00:20:58 <imode> or printf.
00:21:05 <oerjan> `` echo "\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4"
00:21:06 <HackEso> ​\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4
00:21:10 <oerjan> `` echo -e "\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4"
00:21:11 <HackEso> ​Ä,ä
00:21:14 <imode> ayy.
00:21:52 <oerjan> `` echo -e "\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5"
00:21:53 <HackEso> ​Å,å
00:22:17 <oerjan> oh that was after the case folding was improved
00:22:21 <oerjan> `dowg Ä
00:22:24 <HackEso> 10656:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4}; mv \'{\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5}\' \ 10580:2017-04-03 <oerjän> learn \xc3\x84 is a Swedish geographical feature.
00:22:50 <oerjan> ok i've reached the point where i have no idea what i was thinking :P
00:23:05 <imode> so obscure even oerjan can't decode it.
00:23:11 <imode> you are your own worst enemy.
00:23:25 <fizzie> Well, you know what they say: þÿ.
00:23:33 <oerjan> i'll look it up in wiktionary and see if was deceptively accurate
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00:24:43 <oerjan> i think i was just straight up lying
00:25:05 <oerjan> ("Å" is a swedish geographic feature, namely a river)
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00:25:37 <fizzie> þÿ was out of the table of contents of the recent C23 draft (N2731), which looks like this (at least in Zathura and Evince): https://zem.fi/tmp/toc.png
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00:27:05 <oerjan> þerrible
00:52:55 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4' # oerjan:
00:52:56 <HackEso> ​Ä,ä
00:55:40 <b_jonas> `? ö
00:55:42 <HackEso> ​ö? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:55:50 <b_jonas> `? ø
00:55:52 <HackEso> ​ø is not going anywhere.
00:55:56 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I already looked at these
00:57:40 <Melvar> “why doesn't it do the A-Za-z part in the sed transliteration too?” – My question is, why doesn’t it do the specific characters in the `tr` transliteration?
00:57:59 <b_jonas> Melvar: because tr only handles single bytes
00:58:06 <b_jonas> while the names are utf-8 encoded
00:58:24 <b_jonas> and yes, we could use a small perl/python/ruby script
00:58:30 <Melvar> What seriously, tr does bytes?
00:58:37 <Melvar> Who came up with that then?
01:00:37 <b_jonas> Melvar: “Currently ‘tr’ fully supports only single-byte characters. Eventually it will support multibyte characters;” (from the coreutils info manual)
01:12:23 <zzo38> I think working with bytes makes sense, although it can also be useful to be able to work with sequences of multiple bytes (whether or not those sequences correspond to single characters), but perhaps working with sequences of multiple bytes would better be handled by something other than tr anyways, which can deal more properly with regular expressions and match/replace otherwise too.
02:34:23 <zzo38> (Other times, the sequences that you might want, might consist of neither bytes nor of characters, but perhaps blocks of multiple bytes, or lines, etc)
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03:31:26 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89394&oldid=89393 * PixelatedStarfish * (+225)
03:34:47 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89395&oldid=89394 * PixelatedStarfish * (+67) /* BrainSoup Examples */
03:36:55 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89396&oldid=89395 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26) /* BrainSoup Examples */
03:37:19 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89397&oldid=89396 * PixelatedStarfish * (-26) /* BrainSoup Examples */
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05:39:20 <zzo38> There is a 404 error when trying to access the information about thETA programming language, but I think I remember that how it works is that if a division by zero occurs, then it makes a new thread.
05:51:02 <esolangs> [[ThETA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89398&oldid=71007 * Oerjan * (+25) Wayback link
05:51:29 <oerjan> zzo38: not quite, it exits and returns a value to the parent.
05:52:12 <zzo38> O, that's how it works. I may misremembered
05:53:52 <oerjan> also, i fixed the link
05:54:39 <esolangs> [[Template:Wayback]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89399&oldid=75153 * Oerjan * (+1) Use https
05:56:33 <zzo38> Yes, I saw that, now I know how it works.
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10:06:27 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89400&oldid=89389 * Rphii * (+1433) feature enhancement and details on documenting
10:10:22 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89401&oldid=89400 * Rphii * (-5) /* Examples */ there's actually a simpler calculator program
10:10:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Guy Fawkes Rep * uploaded "[[File:AlphabetCrossword.png]]": See [[acrostic]]
10:50:51 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89403&oldid=89401 * Rphii * (+1) fix cat example (previous one would loop)
10:52:43 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89404&oldid=89403 * Rphii * (-1) /* cat */ accidentally added a "
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11:38:33 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89405&oldid=89404 * Rphii * (-5) /* FizzBuzz */ repair
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12:54:17 <esolangs> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89406&oldid=87621 * PixelatedStarfish * (-22)
12:56:06 <riv> hello :)
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13:12:06 <APic> Moin ☺
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13:45:18 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89407&oldid=89397 * PixelatedStarfish * (+32)
13:46:55 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89408&oldid=89407 * PixelatedStarfish * (+32)
13:47:33 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89409&oldid=89408 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
13:47:56 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89410&oldid=89409 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
13:48:30 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89411&oldid=89410 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
13:49:03 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89412&oldid=89411 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4)
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16:00:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89413&oldid=89370 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* BrainSoup */
16:30:57 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89414&oldid=89341 * PixelatedStarfish * (-176)
16:33:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89415&oldid=89413 * PixelatedStarfish * (+28) /* BrainSoup */
16:33:17 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89416&oldid=89415 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* BrainSoup */
16:33:35 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89417&oldid=89416 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* BrainSoup */
16:34:20 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89418&oldid=89417 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* BrainSoup */
16:34:33 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89419&oldid=89418 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* BrainSoup */
16:39:22 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89420&oldid=87857 * PixelatedStarfish * (+194) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
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16:40:16 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89421&oldid=89420 * PixelatedStarfish * (+17) /* Possible Rework */
16:42:16 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89422&oldid=89307 * PixelatedStarfish * (+365)
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18:25:29 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89423&oldid=89412 * PixelatedStarfish * (-67) /* BrainSoup Examples */
18:25:46 <esolangs> [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89424&oldid=89383 * PixelatedStarfish * (-66) /* Hello, World! program */
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20:16:54 <esolangs> [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89425&oldid=89424 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello, World! program */
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20:49:24 <Kit> damn, proving a lang turing complete is a lot harder than i initially thought
20:49:32 <riv> which language?
20:49:35 <imode> what's the lang.
20:49:40 <Kit> CLE
20:49:45 <Kit> its uh
20:49:47 <imode> got a link?
20:49:56 <Kit> https://esolangs.org/wiki/CLE
20:50:13 <Kit> im trying to implement BCT in it
20:50:28 <Kit> but i am dumb
20:52:24 <imode> you ain't dumb.
20:52:53 <Kit> how dare you insult me /s
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21:02:08 <Corbin> Kit: How does computation happen? Maybe as a warmup, how would we construct arbitrary colors?
21:02:43 <Kit> using `R`, `G`, `B`, `C`, etc.
21:04:23 <Kit> i did build NAND, OR, NOR, NOT, XOR, and XNOR gates for it but idk if that proves anything
21:05:01 <Corbin> That would be a great advance, yes; we could use circuit complexity classes, even.
21:13:58 <Kit> you can create any color in a 24-bit RGB space by combining colors and using the "shade" which cuts all the RGB values in half
21:15:30 <Corbin> I wonder what else is needed. Unbounded loops, I guess. Would there be a way to create unbounded recursion, were it not for the finite board?
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21:15:57 <Kit> wdym by unbounded recursion
21:16:01 <Kit> like
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21:16:16 <Kit> store a color for later use?
21:16:31 <Corbin> Like, recursing without being confident that it might stop. Looping would work too.
21:16:48 <Kit> well
21:17:13 <Kit> you can make a loop by doing `>r<` which would output a red beam every other cycle
21:17:27 <Kit> if that is what you mean?
21:21:37 <Corbin> Kind of. We'd need to find a way to make it unpredictable whether the beam is being output.
21:22:16 <Kit> you can intercept it by adding a filter thatd block the red from crossing
21:23:31 <Corbin> Hm. I wonder if filters could be modulated to create a crude transistor.
21:24:35 <Kit> you can, yea
21:24:51 <Corbin> I guess that the halting criterion for CLE should be whether two cycles in a row have the same outputs?
21:25:03 <Kit> hm?
21:25:05 <Kit> wdym
21:25:10 <Kit> like
21:25:31 <Kit> `>r<` outputs one red one cycle and nothing on the next
21:25:33 <HackEso> ​>r<`? No such file or directory
21:25:39 <Kit> oh shut up
21:25:43 <Kit> anyway--
21:25:59 <Kit> on the next cycle it does one red again and nothing again, and repeat
21:27:52 <Corbin> Right. This is a productive loop. If we simulate CLE with a Turing machine, we could imagine writing down the current color for each cycle onto an output tape.
21:31:29 <Corbin> But if we want to find Turing-complete CLE behavior, then we need to imagine that sometimes we stop outputting anything. This means that we need some way to consider the CLE machine done.
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21:34:00 <Kit_> yea
21:34:33 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89426&oldid=89423 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* BrainSoup Examples */
21:35:00 <Kit_> you can have an output "tape"
21:35:21 <Kit_> but idk how you could store that and read any part of it back
21:35:32 <Kit_> you *could* use the tofu but
21:35:56 <Kit_> idk how youd be able to select the element you want
21:37:06 <Corbin> No worries. Right now I suppose I'm looking for ways in which a CLE interpreter would not need to be Turing-complete. Since it's legal and common for a CLE program to run forever, perhaps we should look at the complexity of simulating a single cycle in CLE.
21:37:41 <Kit_> well
21:38:12 <Kit_> uh
21:38:30 <Kit_> each cell is treated in the exact same way
21:38:50 <Kit_> and it just checks each cell sequentially
21:39:11 <Kit_> every op doesnt access any data outside its cell
21:39:28 <Corbin> Okay. Then I want to quote from [[Brainfuck]]'s section on complexity classes.
21:39:41 <Corbin> "When the array is unbounded, or when the array is at least three cells long and can store unbounded values, brainfuck is Turing-complete, meaning that it is in the same computational class as universal Turing machines."
21:40:41 <Kit_> oh
21:40:43 <Kit_> well
21:40:55 <Kit_> CLE has bounded integers
21:40:59 <Corbin> Let's take the De Morgan dual of that statement, for CLE. When CLE's board is bounded and the number of possible colors is also bounded, then we have a PSPACE automaton. PSPACE is "polynomial space"; Go and Chess are famous examples.
21:41:23 <Kit_> oh!
21:41:36 <Kit_> i think im following what youre saying
21:42:29 <Corbin> If we imagine that the colors are unbounded, then each channel should behave like a real number. We can then do some constructive maths; there are Turing-complete questions like, "Given a description of a real number R, is R equal to zero?"
21:43:40 <Kit_> you can do that, yes
21:44:02 <Corbin> If we imagine that the board is unbounded and that new cells can be dynamically allocated (this is the analogue of Brainfuck's one-dimensional growth to the "right") then we can chop the board into two regions, "left" and "right", and build a two-stack automaton which uses the "left" region for the main "stack" and the "right" region for the "call stack".
21:44:09 <Kit_> i made a NOT gate that outputs if the color is zero
21:44:57 <Kit_> oh!
21:45:28 <Kit_> i think i understand
21:45:54 <Corbin> Like, let's imagine that the board is a connected square in an ocean of unused cells. This is the "left" region. If we want to run a statically-known routine, we can pre-allocate space for it here.
21:46:30 <Corbin> The external ocean is the "right" region. To run an unknown routine, allocate its starting space in a *connected* region on the left/right boundary, and then transfer control up into the new region.
21:47:34 <Corbin> In order to really make this work, you might need a way to either pre-format the unknown region with a carefully-chosen arrangement of mirrors and mufflers, or some sort of self-modifying code. Both are "fun".
21:48:55 <Corbin> I think that the real-number color channels would be easier to design but harder to use, and vice versa for the infinite board. Hopefully I'm missing something and these are both much simpler than I'm making it sound!
21:49:08 <Kit_> i was thinking of adding some sort of modification but i thought that might be cheesy (in the way bf derivs are cheesy)
21:49:22 <Kit_> s/modification/self-modification
21:50:15 <Kit_> but the primary problem with having an infinite board is that
21:50:38 <Kit_> theres no way to modify a beam thats on a blank cell
21:50:40 <Corbin> Well, it's just not obvious how an empty infinite board would let you extend your computation. You could emit light out, but you really need to mix it with other light, so you need some mirrors out there to help.
21:50:44 <Corbin> Yeah, exactly.
21:50:50 <Kit_> yea
21:51:27 <Kit_> so self-modification can solve the issue but idk how id implement it
21:53:19 <Corbin> The cheesiest way would be sci-fi "building from light", where specific light colors could be mixed to call constructors in a cell. Mixing two colors could require a 48-bit magic value. But this can be messy since it creates forbidden colors that can't be expressed directly.
21:54:02 <Kit_> well
21:54:34 <Kit_> in order to represent the entire RGB spectrum you do need to do a mixture of shades and RGBs
21:54:42 <Corbin> Another sci-fi possibility is a "Von Neumann constructor", a special cell which takes light from one direction and rebuilds the contents of the cell in another direction. This is known to be Turing-complete for careful choices of direction, even if the only possible modification is to turn any cell into another Von Neumann replicator.
21:55:13 <Kit_> aha
21:55:17 <Kit_> so
21:55:19 <Corbin> Ugh, IKR? Color spaces are such a headache. Linear RGB really saved my sanity.
21:55:27 <Kit_> i can make a cell
21:55:36 <Kit_> that when is hit with a beam
21:55:40 <Kit_> it duplicates itself
21:56:20 <Kit_> the only problem is that id have to wrangle that into the interpreter somehow as then thatd require accessing cells other than its own
21:56:31 <Kit_> but thats no problem
21:56:54 <Corbin> Yes. And then I think (using folklore) that CLE would be Turing-complete under the question of whether a given program is finished calling the duplicator.
21:59:51 <Kit_> that makes sense
22:00:51 <Kit_> i dont 100% see how that can be considered turing complete but idk
22:04:16 <Corbin> Yeah, maybe not. We might need the constructor to build other types of cells. But then it should be possible to encode a Turing machine and use the constructor to write an output tape onto the board.
22:06:04 <Kit_> hmm
22:06:18 <Kit_> im trying to think how that might work
22:08:55 <Corbin> I would have cells which physically implement a write head on the tape, and intend for the tape to grow out in one single direction from the board. Because light can travel down empty corridors, I would let the head be instructed by the light: Write 0 or 1, move left or right, rebuild the entire head at the new position.
22:09:48 <Kit_> hmm
22:09:48 <Corbin> The main board would have a tofu for the current machine state, which has the same states as the Turing machine plus a waiting-for-head state. The head could send a signal when it's done building, which would trigger on that final state.
22:09:55 <Corbin> ...Huh, how do conditionals work in CLE?
22:10:14 <Kit_> via filters
22:10:38 <Kit_> i mentioned a couple times that i made logic gates work
22:10:39 <Corbin> Oh, so the path to updating the tofu could be filtered by the tofu's current state?
22:10:45 <Kit_> yea
22:11:03 <Kit_> but filters only work on empty cells and on peropendicular beams
22:11:13 <Corbin> You did mention simple gates. Do you have something like an R/S latch?
22:11:31 <Kit_> lemme see if i can make one
22:14:09 <Kit_> yea its possible
22:20:13 <Corbin> Okay. Sorry, I'm having trouble focusing, but OTOH that covers all the moving parts. Please keep asking questions.
22:33:09 <esolangs> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89427&oldid=81838 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9)
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23:55:16 <Kit> Oh, sorry, was busy for a bit
23:57:04 <Kit> uh
23:57:16 <Kit> as for the self-modifying thing
23:57:42 <Kit> wdym by "write 0 or 1"
23:58:41 <Kit> uh i guess i should state that CLE is a lot like wireworld, in a way? hopefully that clears up any confusion
23:59:03 <Kit> except more... "analog"?
2021-11-08
00:02:53 <esolangs> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89428&oldid=89427 * Not applicable * (+24) thanks for your contribution, starfish, but trailing spaces arent actually required, sorry!
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01:02:50 <esolangs> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89429&oldid=89406 * Oerjan * (+22) Undo revision 89406 by [[Special:Contributions/PixelatedStarfish|PixelatedStarfish]] ([[User talk:PixelatedStarfish|talk]])
01:05:17 <oerjan> all the others seem to have been purged already.
01:17:29 <oerjan> hm is florence going to make a surprise discovery
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11:03:35 <esolangs> [[..]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89430 * AmNow * (+1369) .. nose ..
11:04:28 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89431&oldid=89372 * AmNow * (+12) added lang
11:05:11 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89432&oldid=86583 * AmNow * (+29) added lang
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19:14:51 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89433&oldid=89362 * 4gboframram * (-71) /* Hello World (129 characters) */
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20:30:27 <esolangs> [[CopyPasta Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89434&oldid=80486 * Rerednaw * (-96)
20:33:07 <esolangs> [[User:Rerednaw]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89435&oldid=70457 * Rerednaw * (-1267)
20:39:54 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89436&oldid=89426 * PixelatedStarfish * (+101) /* Interpreter */
20:40:04 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89437&oldid=89436 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* External Links */
20:40:36 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89438&oldid=89437 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* External Links */
20:40:53 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89439&oldid=89438 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* External Links */
20:41:33 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89440&oldid=89439 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
20:42:27 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89441&oldid=89440 * PixelatedStarfish * (+66)
20:45:37 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89442&oldid=89419 * PixelatedStarfish * (-128) /* Unimplemented Languages */
20:46:18 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89443&oldid=89442 * PixelatedStarfish * (+128) /* Implemented Languages */
20:46:54 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89444&oldid=89443 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* BrainSoup */
20:47:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89445&oldid=89444 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* BrainSoup */
20:47:30 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89446&oldid=89445 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5) /* BrainSoup */
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21:01:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89447&oldid=89431 * 4gboframram * (+19) /* B */
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23:23:39 <zzo38> There is now a newsgroup for Gemini protocol on Big8. I didn't know they still added new newsgroups on Big8.
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03:17:28 <esolangs> [[User:Daggy1234]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89448 * Daggy1234 * (+5) User Daggy1234
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04:31:37 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89449&oldid=89441 * PixelatedStarfish * (+66) /* External Links */
04:34:20 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89450&oldid=89446 * PixelatedStarfish * (+74) /* BrainSoup */
04:34:36 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89451&oldid=89450 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* BrainSoup */
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04:50:12 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89452&oldid=88765 * PixelatedStarfish * (+157) /* External links */
04:50:34 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89453&oldid=89452 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* External links */
04:51:26 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89454&oldid=89453 * PixelatedStarfish * (-8) /* External links */
05:28:40 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89455&oldid=89451 * PixelatedStarfish * (+59)
05:29:54 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89456&oldid=89455 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
05:30:53 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89457&oldid=89456 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
05:33:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89458&oldid=89457 * PixelatedStarfish * (+48)
05:39:26 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89459 * Daggy1234 * (+970) Created page with "= PokeType = A simple mathematical expression evaluator that uses Pokemon types to replace symbols. == Syntax == === Reference === {| ! Symbol ! sath Equivalent ! Pokemon..."
05:39:59 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89460&oldid=89459 * Daggy1234 * (+0) /* Reference */
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05:56:34 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89461&oldid=89460 * Daggy1234 * (+354)
05:59:09 <esolangs> [[User:Daggy1234]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89462&oldid=89448 * Daggy1234 * (+39)
06:04:05 <zzo38> Should a "Interpreter:" header be added into the HTTP, in case the client does not know how to display the retrieved file, in case e.g. you want to return a Markdown or Gemini file, to hopefully satisfy both those who do want to make it a HTML with fancy CSS/JavaScript as well as to satisfy those who do not want it and want do it yourself instead
06:12:06 <zzo38> (It is also an alternative than using the Accept header to determine the picture format to use)
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09:18:32 <esolangs> [[ICBINB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89463 * ArthroStar11 * (+3797) created page and provided link to my interpreter
09:19:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89464&oldid=89447 * ArthroStar11 * (+13) Added my language "ICBINB"
09:20:49 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89465&oldid=89220 * ArthroStar11 * (+85)
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12:14:45 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89466&oldid=89461 * Daggy1234 * (+918)
12:16:57 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89467&oldid=89466 * Daggy1234 * (-8)
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15:08:13 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89468 * PixelatedStarfish * (+369) Created page with "'''Chomp''' is a program language in the which the programmer must use memory one byte at a time. Bytes are stored on a circular tape of arbitrary size. Operations can be perf..."
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16:02:14 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89469&oldid=89468 * PixelatedStarfish * (-12)
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17:54:24 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89470&oldid=89469 * PixelatedStarfish * (+266) /* Commands */
17:57:14 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89471&oldid=89470 * PixelatedStarfish * (+93)
17:57:49 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89472&oldid=89471 * PixelatedStarfish * (+21) /* Commands */
17:58:47 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89473&oldid=89472 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Commands */
18:01:13 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89474&oldid=89458 * PixelatedStarfish * (+40) /* Unimplemented Languages */
18:09:03 <esolangs> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89475&oldid=82839 * Shaman * (+1374)
18:14:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ketok * New user account
18:21:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89476&oldid=89375 * Ketok * (+134)
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18:56:32 <esolangs> [[Izhora]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89477 * Shaman * (+4944) Created page with "'''Izhora''' (the first version known as '''Izhora 1''') is an [[OISC]] computer implemented as a large [[cellular automation]] pattern by Yoel Matveyev in 2021<ref>https://gi..."
18:56:51 <esolangs> [[Izhora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89478&oldid=89477 * Shaman * (+4)
18:57:51 <esolangs> [[Izhora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89479&oldid=89478 * Shaman * (-1)
19:00:29 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89480&oldid=89473 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* Commands */
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21:26:59 <riv> > The above text snippet contains two explicit directional formatting characters, U+202E (RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE) and U+202C (POP DIRECTIONAL FORMATTING). These characters can influence Unicode's Bidirectional Algorithm and could be used to craft source code that renders differently than what compilers would execute.
21:27:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:79: error: parse error on input ‘,’
21:27:01 <riv> ...
21:27:04 <riv> there's a stack????
21:27:27 <imode> buh?
21:27:35 <esolangs> [[Where]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89481 * Ketok * (+1463) Created page with "'''Where''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Ketok]]. ==Language overview== Where operates on 4 memory cells, initially set to 1, 2, 3, 4. Each cell can..."
21:28:31 <fizzie> Yeah, you might have arbitrarily deeply nested quotations that need to alter the directional formatting.
21:29:00 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidirectional_text#Table_of_possible_BiDi_character_types
21:30:19 <fizzie> TBH, I read through that paper, and I was hoping for a few more spectacular examples, it seemed to be mostly just sneaking in comments.
21:44:25 <zzo38> This is one reason why I don't want to use Unicode.
21:49:58 <riv> i dont really see the problem
21:50:24 <riv> I think no one is looking at the code, so "hiding" stuff doesn't make a difference
21:50:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89482&oldid=89464 * Ketok * (+12) Added Where
21:50:52 <fizzie> A lot of projects do have a code review mechanism.
21:51:27 <riv> I guess so
21:52:04 <fizzie> For example, Linux kernel contributions do get reviewed. There was that previous controversy about a "study".
21:52:24 <fizzie> https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/30/22410164/linux-kernel-university-of-minnesota-banned-open-source
21:53:31 <riv> i remember that, that sucked
21:54:10 <fizzie> Not that you'd probably *need* Unicode trickery to hide malicious code, and (now that it's been widely popularized) having anything like that is going to be checked mechanically.
21:54:43 <shachaf> I think the Unicode BiDi stack nesting is limited to around 255 levels?
21:55:31 <shachaf> I think calling these BiDi things language vulnerabilities is just ridiculous, though, and the sort of attention this thing has gotten is mostly bad.
21:56:10 <riv> yeah it sort of bothers me but i can't really give a good reason why its not valid
21:56:27 <shachaf> Sure, it's probably reasonable not to support these code points in code, but that's about it.
21:56:28 <riv> i definitely saw this stuff a long long time ago though
21:56:32 <riv> yeah
21:56:34 <zzo38> I dislike Unicode; there is a lot of bad things. There are other character eocndings.
21:56:45 <riv> zzo38: don't youlike UTF-8?
21:56:47 <shachaf> Well, if your goal is to do this kind of attack, this just seems like a bad way to do it.
21:57:25 <shachaf> It's pretty easy to catch, and it's obviously on purpose.
21:58:03 <shachaf> Most likely you can just write some slightly confusing code and people won't read it very carefully.
21:58:36 <shachaf> Or just put blatant malicious code in some npm dependency everyone uses.
21:59:24 <shachaf> Or you can do sneakier things.
21:59:30 <zzo38> UTF-8 is not a bad encoding of Unicode (and has the advantage of being compatible with ASCII), but I dislike Unicode, and that is independent of what encoding is used for Unicode text.
22:19:57 <tm512> curious what you dislike about unicode. seems preferable to having a wide assortment of various character encodings depending on the language and its script
22:21:05 <tm512> maybe that's a false dichotomy but I'm not aware of any other character encodings that tackle this problem
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22:34:19 <zzo38> No single character encoding is ever suitable for all purposes. One encoding (that tries to avoid the problems with Han unification, but has a different set of advantages and disadvantages) is the TRON code.
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2021-11-10
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03:13:52 <esolangs> [[Lye]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89483 * Corbin * (+693) Document one of my old projects. I want to include examples, but first I have to find some decade-old backups.
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03:33:46 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89484&oldid=89474 * PixelatedStarfish * (+11) /* In Chronological Order */
03:34:46 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89485&oldid=89139 * PixelatedStarfish * (-13) /* Instructions */
03:43:54 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89486&oldid=89480 * PixelatedStarfish * (+63)
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05:55:33 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89487&oldid=89340 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+78) /* Derivative Ideas */
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08:07:26 <riv> zzo38 yes, why don't you like unicode? I think that's interesting
08:07:34 <riv> there's some aspects of it i dont like, but it mostly seems ok to me
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10:12:20 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89488&oldid=89487 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (-78)
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10:55:54 <esolangs> [[Keystone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89489 * AmNow * (+1058) Created page with "Keystone is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:AmNow]], and was made for the purpose of creating and checking product keys. == Commands == A variable can be decl..."
10:56:34 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89490&oldid=89432 * AmNow * (-9) added lang
10:57:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89491&oldid=89482 * AmNow * (+15) /* K */ added lang
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14:58:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89492&oldid=89476 * Umnikos * (+182) /* Introductions */
14:58:48 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89493&oldid=79657 * Umnikos * (+0) Fix Mathematics formula to be correct (and to also match the python script given along with it)
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15:18:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Chuckhoffmann * New user account
15:20:06 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_%28encoding%29
15:20:27 <riv> TRON (acronym for The Real-time Operating system Nucleus) is an open architecture real-time operating system kernel design. The project was started by Professor Dr. Ken Sakamura of the University of Tokyo in 1984. The project's goal is to create an ideal computer architecture and network, to provide for all of society's needs.[1]
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15:21:59 <riv> Each character in TRON Code is two bytes. Similarly to ISO/IEC 2022, the TRON character encoding handles characters in multiple character sets within a single character encoding by using escape sequences, referred to as language specifier codes, to switch between planes of 48,400 code points
15:22:04 <riv> this doesn't sound better than UTF-8
15:22:23 <riv> you have to use escape codes to switch planes, so if your message uses many different planes it will be longer
15:22:37 <riv> I think utf-8 text will be fewer bytes in general
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15:24:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89494&oldid=89492 * Chuckhoffmann * (+194) /* Introductions */
15:25:05 <esolangs> [[Pyhton (sic)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89495&oldid=82890 * Chuckhoffmann * (+1) Minor spelling corrections.
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17:23:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GingerIndustries * New user account
17:25:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89496&oldid=89494 * GingerIndustries * (+90) hello world
17:26:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89497&oldid=89496 * GingerIndustries * (+111)
17:27:01 <esolangs> [[User:GingerIndustries]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89498 * GingerIndustries * (+83) Created page with "Hello World! I created KonamiCode, a BrainF-inspired esoteric programming language."
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18:45:30 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89499 * GingerIndustries * (+3524) Created page with "'''KonamiCode''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:GingerIndustries]] that was designed to be similar to [[BrainFuck]] but slightly easier to use. Its..."
18:46:32 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89500&oldid=89499 * GingerIndustries * (+2)
18:46:52 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode/Hello World]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89501 * GingerIndustries * (+328) Created page with "<pre> v(^^^^^^^>^^) [writes 72 (or H) to address 0 in memory] >((>)) [prints it] v(^>>^) [writes 101 (or e) to address 1 in memory] >((>)) [prints it] v(^>>^^^^^^^^) [etc] >((..."
18:47:18 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode/Hello World]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89502&oldid=89501 * GingerIndustries * (+60)
18:52:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89503&oldid=89491 * GingerIndustries * (+17) Added KonamiCode
18:54:18 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89504&oldid=88658 * GingerIndustries * (+39) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
18:58:17 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89505&oldid=89500 * GingerIndustries * (+77) Added categories
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19:20:48 <oren> I created a function that uses the obscure "FBSTP" instruction to help convert an binary integer to a decimal string.
19:23:25 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/mlom.htm
19:25:14 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/bcditoa.htm
19:25:43 <oren> this allows it to convert from binary to decimal without dividing anything by 10
19:29:43 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89506&oldid=83863 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+777) Added a section enumerating the mappings of numeric codes to letters, rectified the loop command example, and extended the description of the instruction r.
19:30:24 <shachaf> x87? Oh boy.
19:31:26 <oren> the x87 instruction set still supports a vestigial BCD converting instruction
19:33:33 <shachaf> http://0x80.pl/notesen/2013-11-07-fbstp.html -- looks like a great time.
19:35:01 <oren> yea most of these routines are much slower
19:37:11 <myname> if we are talking weird encodings, i put https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-EBCDIC into the pool
19:37:56 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89507&oldid=89506 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+5574) Added a hyperlink to my interpreter implementation on GitHub, introduced an exemplary implementation, and supplemented another example program.
19:38:48 <oren> I also wrote some string routines using the x86's specializee REPNZ SCASB and stuff. they are much slower than even naive loop
19:40:38 <oren> I haven't compared the x86 builtin CRC32 instructions to naive implementation yet
19:42:45 <oren> 0xF2,0x48,0x0F,0x38,0xF1,0007, // CRC32 64 bits from [RDI] into EAX
19:44:02 <zzo38> In some ways, TRON will be better than UTF-8, but in other ways worse; it depends on the specific application, I think. For one thing, TRON doesn't have the Han unification of Unicode, which in some cases is helpful. I am not trying to say that it is always better; I do not believe that any character encoding is "always better".
19:47:18 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode/Hello World]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89508&oldid=89502 * GingerIndustries * (+12)
19:47:56 <zzo38> Also not much information can be found very well; I have seen conflicting information about if it has combining characters and if it has modes with single byte characters.
19:57:32 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89509&oldid=89505 * GingerIndustries * (+372) Added infobox
19:58:09 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89510&oldid=89509 * GingerIndustries * (-6)
19:58:54 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89511&oldid=89510 * GingerIndustries * (+67)
19:59:30 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89512&oldid=89511 * GingerIndustries * (-2)
19:59:47 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89513&oldid=89512 * GingerIndustries * (+0)
20:33:05 <esolangs> [[Gravitasumma]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89514 * Threesodas * (+330) Created page with "'''gravitaSumma''' (from Latin ''gravitas summa'' meaning ''intense gravity'') is a simple programming language created in 2020 by [[user:threesodas|threesodas]] in order to s..."
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22:19:49 <zzo38> riv: About problems with Unicode, I will list some of them: homoglyphs, rather complexity in implementation, ambiguous character widths, properties (including character widths) needing changing due to new versions of Unicode (and possibly private characters), unification (including, but not limited to, Han unification) even for applications that don't want it and vice-versa, etc.
22:22:47 <zzo38> It also leads to bugs and misfeatures.
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23:32:04 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89515&oldid=87107 * Xorol * (-98)
2021-11-11
00:10:45 <oren> I have a way of setting a 64-bit register to -1 in 4 bytes, namely REX.W 83 reg/1 -1
00:11:46 <oren> is there a way to do it in 3 bytes or less?
00:13:49 <shachaf> Is that or with -1 as a sign-extended 8-bit immediate?
00:14:25 <oren> yes
00:15:19 <shachaf> I don't know anything better.
00:16:44 <shachaf> Hmm, 3 bytes is so short that you can brute-force search pretty easily.
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00:25:41 <oren> one idea i had was SBB from itself after setting CF
00:26:22 <oren> unfortunately that one is also 4 bytes, not 3
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00:26:57 <oren> it's 3 bytes for a 32 bit register tho
00:27:08 <oren> but so is the OR one
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00:34:12 <zzo38> I have seen the suggestion to just disallow non-ASCII characters in the source code, which I agree. (This does not preclude having functions dealing with other character encodings (including UTF-8, although functions should not be forced to use Unicode!), or from putting data in other files if non-ASCII text is needed.)
00:40:04 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89516&oldid=89515 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Instructions */ fix typo
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02:42:46 <shachaf> oren: Oh, found one.
02:43:05 <shachaf> `asm pushq $-1; popq %rax
02:43:06 <HackEso> 0: 6a ff pushq $0xffffffffffffffff \ 2: 58 pop %rax
02:43:20 <oren> oooh nice!!!
02:45:10 <shachaf> Brute force to the rescue!
02:45:37 <shachaf> Brute-forcing this was pretty funny in various ways.
02:57:08 <oren> yea this makes sense because x86-64 stack instructions do 64 bits by default, unlike the other ones that do 32 bits by default
02:58:52 <oren> i was wondering how to brute dforce it- it would be difficult to avoid getting killed by undefined instruction exception i would think
02:59:42 <oren> i guess you could run each 3 bytes into a dissasembler and grep for -1?
03:05:00 <shachaf> I fork a new process for each one.
03:06:04 <shachaf> Originally it was misbehaving in all sorts of sneaky ways. The child would jump into the middle of the parent's code and start spawning its own children, and so on.
03:06:24 <shachaf> I switched to fork+exec and worked around some blatant misbehaviors and it seems to be going OK now, though it's very slow.
03:06:39 <shachaf> I think ~2000 instructions per second is a pretty good speed for a modern CPU to be running instructions at?
03:07:33 <shachaf> It would probably be better to use a debugging API to write the relevant instructions to memory and single-step through them and then check register state, and handle SIGILL and so on that way.
03:08:36 <shachaf> Who knew that a brute-force search over the space of all programs would find some sneaky programs that manage to get around your various safeguards?
03:15:38 <oren> ah that's an good approach. that way the original state of the uhh searcher program isn't messed up at least
03:50:20 <oren> in fact, stack operations can be used to reduce the size of a lot of stuff
03:50:57 <oren> e.g. mov %rax, %rcx is 3 bytes while push %rax, pop %rcx is 2
03:55:32 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89517&oldid=89449 * PixelatedStarfish * (+72)
03:56:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:FACTORY SHOWROOM.png]]"
04:03:22 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89519&oldid=89517 * PixelatedStarfish * (+418)
04:04:04 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89520&oldid=89519 * PixelatedStarfish * (-62)
04:04:51 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89521&oldid=89520 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
04:05:17 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89522&oldid=89521 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5)
04:06:34 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89523&oldid=89522 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
04:08:04 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89524&oldid=89523 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
04:12:19 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89525&oldid=89524 * PixelatedStarfish * (-305)
04:14:02 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89526&oldid=89525 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
04:14:54 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89527&oldid=89526 * PixelatedStarfish * (+23)
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06:29:36 <esolangs> [[Lento]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89528 * Xorol * (+77) Created page with "Lento is a variant of [[Python]] where each line takes 10 seconds to execute."
06:45:47 <arseniiv> hei hei
06:51:10 <oren> the six bytes {0xFC, 0122, 0131, 0xF3, 0xA4, 0xC3} are sufficient for memcpy
06:53:17 <oren> thanks to shachaf, who discovered that I had completely overlooked the stack opcodes
06:55:50 <zzo38> What happen if you want to make a PGP signature for a message that already contains "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----"?
06:57:44 <zzo38> I found RFC 4880 and will see if that will answer my question
07:04:32 <zzo38> It does; it says any line of the message starting with "-" must have "- " added in front.
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08:33:28 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0xfc, 0122, 0131 0xf3, 0xa4, 0xc3
08:33:32 <HackEso> ​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `0' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `0'
08:33:36 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0xfc, 0122, 0131, 0xf3, 0xa4, 0xc3
08:33:38 <HackEso> 0: fc cld \ 1: 52 push %rdx \ 2: 59 pop %rcx \ 3: f3 a4 rep movsb %ds:(%rsi),%es:(%rdi) \ 5: c3 retq
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09:13:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mellobacon * New user account
09:16:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89529&oldid=89497 * Mellobacon * (+161) /* Introductions */
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09:32:00 <wib_jonas> shachaf: in the form of the {OR RAX, imm8} instruction, is the imm8 sign-extended or zero-extended? if it's sign-extended then {OR RAX, -1} should work
09:32:11 <wib_jonas> oren: ^
09:32:14 <wib_jonas> let me look up the manual
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09:32:39 <wib_jonas> oh wait, that won't work
09:32:50 <wib_jonas> it won't be 3 bytes unless it's for RAX
09:32:52 <wib_jonas> RAX is cheating
09:34:04 <wib_jonas> "in fact, stack operations can be used to reduce the size of a lot of stuff" => yes, but that's usually a bad idea. it makes the decoder, the decoded operations loop cache, and the scheduler all work harder than they should
09:34:22 <wib_jonas> there's a good reason why the optimization manual recommends you to use one instruction instead of two whenever possible
09:41:42 <zzo38> My other ideas (I don't know what 64-bit x86 has or how many bytes they are, so they might not work) includes: zero and decrement, zero and bitwise NOT, XORN by itself, subtract from self with borrow; I don't know which if any of these will be work, and for which registers (they might be different depending which register you want)?
09:42:20 <zzo38> There might be even more confusing ways, whether involving floating points, address-based arithmetics, etc? I don't know.
09:42:57 <zzo38> Also, there might be some ways that depend on the previous state, which depending on the program you might be able to guarantee.
09:43:20 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89530&oldid=89465 * ArthroStar11 * (-1913) Blanked the page
09:45:23 <wib_jonas> the obvious idea is to reserve a register that has -1, then you can copy from that in 3 bytes
09:49:23 <zzo38> Yes, if your program doesn't use all of the registers for other purposes, then you can do that.
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10:11:46 <shachaf> wib_jonas: There's no imm8 or for RAX.
10:12:18 <shachaf> Looking at https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/or , the RAX variant takes imm32.
10:15:13 <wib_jonas> shachaf: sorry, you're right about that, I got my opcode table wrong.
10:15:51 <wib_jonas> ignore the OR stuff then
10:17:11 <wib_jonas> in that case I'd just recommend using one of the four-byte methods, like {OR reg, -1} with a sign-extended imm8
10:18:19 <wib_jonas> or in fact sometimes the seven-byte {MOV reg, -1} may be better, to avoid the false dependency
10:18:48 <wib_jonas> (or copy -1 from a register)
10:19:17 <wib_jonas> oh well
10:19:35 <esolangs> [[Madlad]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89531 * Mellobacon * (+1372) Created page with "=MadLad= '''MadLad''' is an esoteric programming language meant to be similar to C# but with a twist. MadLad is a very angry language and will yell at you for everything. Feat..."
10:23:19 <esolangs> [[Madlad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89532&oldid=89531 * Mellobacon * (+98)
10:25:30 <esolangs> [[Madlad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89533&oldid=89532 * Mellobacon * (+11)
10:32:59 <shachaf> wib_jonas: I did find a 3-byte method with push and pop, above.
10:41:40 <int-e> why ...oh because of that stupid additional prefix that x86/64 needs to disambiguate modr/m registers.
10:41:59 <int-e> so the obvious or rax,-1 needs 4 bytes
11:01:12 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes, but I still don't recommend that
11:03:43 <shachaf> My brute-force program found a bunch of other things but they were mostly red herrings that relied on memory layout being in various particular ways.
11:24:33 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89534&oldid=89488 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+99) Undo revision 89488 by [[Special:Contributions/Guy Fawkes Rep|Guy Fawkes Rep]] ([[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep|talk]]) : Mentioned the Korean language
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13:42:30 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89535&oldid=89513 * GingerIndustries * (+111) Added <<<
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18:44:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Twingamerdudes * New user account
18:49:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89536&oldid=89529 * Twingamerdudes * (+269) /* Introductions */
19:06:35 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89537&oldid=89535 * GingerIndustries * (+38)
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19:50:41 <esolangs> [[Rhoam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89538&oldid=71653 * SoundOfScripting * (+29) Added [[Category:Turning tarpits]]
19:52:06 <oren> hmm what if I used IP-relative addressing and put useful constants nearby outside the function
19:52:16 <esolangs> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89539&oldid=71655 * SoundOfScripting * (+29) Added [[Category:Turning tarpits]]
19:54:36 <oren> nah, there is no single-byte IP-relative offset
19:58:59 <int-e> hmm... so gcc/clang load the value into a temporary register for arithmetic with a full 64 bit value
19:59:26 <esolangs> [[M?!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89540&oldid=88978 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-2) Changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
19:59:37 <int-e> which I guess isn't so bad because there are all those extra general purpose registers
20:00:31 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89541&oldid=89507 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+25) Added the category tag Output only.
20:06:23 <esolangs> [[Mash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89542 * Twingamerdudes * (+3756) This is the wiki page for Mash
20:09:43 <esolangs> [[User:Twingamerdudes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89543 * Twingamerdudes * (+489) my pfp page
20:40:12 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89544&oldid=89542 * Twingamerdudes * (+29) This is the wiki page for Mash
20:52:40 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89545&oldid=89544 * Twingamerdudes * (+465) This is the wiki page for Mash
20:53:46 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89546&oldid=89545 * Twingamerdudes * (+13) Fixed formatting issues
20:54:08 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89547&oldid=89546 * Twingamerdudes * (-2)
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20:56:03 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89548&oldid=89547 * Twingamerdudes * (+21) /* Syntax */
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22:02:36 <Twingamerdudes> hello
22:06:12 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89549&oldid=89503 * Twingamerdudes * (+11) Added mash
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22:12:07 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/c/gnembon/videos works at mojang now
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22:21:57 <Twingamerdudes> ?
22:22:14 <Koen> hi, Twin
22:22:33 <Twingamerdudes> hello
22:22:40 <Twingamerdudes> I made a esolang today
22:22:54 <Twingamerdudes> just put it on the esolang wiki
22:22:57 <Twingamerdudes> right here https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mash
22:23:08 <Twingamerdudes> how about you
22:23:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89550&oldid=89549 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* M */ Fix order
22:24:50 <Twingamerdudes> ?
22:28:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89551 * Twingamerdudes * (+218) Beginning of Mash Discussion
22:29:47 <Twingamerdudes> ?
22:30:42 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89552&oldid=89548 * Twingamerdudes * (+12) /* Hello World */
22:35:46 <esolangs> [[Category:Brainfuck equivalents]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89553&oldid=34092 * PixelatedStarfish * (+300)
22:36:31 <esolangs> [[Category:Brainfuck equivalents]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89554&oldid=89553 * PixelatedStarfish * (-37)
22:36:46 <esolangs> [[Category:Brainfuck equivalents]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89555&oldid=89554 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
22:42:20 <zzo38> What if you want to display text with a semicolon? Also, one example says +_^ for gather input and other one says _+^ for gather input, and the specification says "put ^ in front of the _".
22:51:25 <Twingamerdudes> you can't print text with the semi colon, the semi colon represents the end of the string, and for the _+^ problem, that was a typo
22:51:31 <Twingamerdudes> my bad
22:51:55 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89556&oldid=89552 * Twingamerdudes * (+0) Fixed typo
22:52:00 <Twingamerdudes> well I fixed it now
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22:57:42 <Twingamerdudes> hello
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23:11:05 <zzo38> OK
23:14:25 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89557&oldid=89556 * Twingamerdudes * (+189) /* Cat Program */
23:15:12 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89558&oldid=89557 * Twingamerdudes * (+43) /* Syntax */
23:19:31 <esolangs> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89559&oldid=89475 * Shaman * (+26)
23:20:16 <esolangs> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89560&oldid=89559 * Shaman * (+5)
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23:44:39 <Twingamerdudes> hello
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23:53:14 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89561&oldid=89534 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (-22)
23:54:37 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89562&oldid=89558 * Twingamerdudes * (+24) Added Category Low level
23:56:24 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89563&oldid=89562 * Twingamerdudes * (-13) /* Tips */
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2021-11-12
00:01:29 -!- rodgort has joined.
00:06:31 <Twingamerdudes> hello
00:22:58 <Twingamerdudes> ?
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00:37:10 <Corbin> Twingamerdudes: Hi.
00:37:13 <Corbin> Drat, too slow.
00:57:12 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89564&oldid=89249 * PixelatedStarfish * (+94) /* Operation Codes */
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01:00:33 <Twingamerdudes> hello
01:00:55 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89565&oldid=89564 * PixelatedStarfish * (+64) /* Grammar */
01:01:06 <Corbin> Twingamerdudes: Hi. Sorry to miss you the last couple times. What's up?
01:01:17 <Twingamerdudes> I'm pretty good
01:01:26 <Twingamerdudes> I made a esolang and published it on the wiki today
01:01:39 <Twingamerdudes> here is is right here https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mash
01:01:46 <Twingamerdudes> how about how
01:01:49 <Twingamerdudes> *you
01:02:00 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89566&oldid=89565 * PixelatedStarfish * (+64) /* Grammar */
01:02:25 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89567&oldid=89566 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Grammar */
01:02:51 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89568&oldid=89567 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Grammar */
01:03:18 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89569&oldid=89568 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Grammar */
01:04:32 <Corbin> Trying to figure out unfolds in Cammy. Been stuck on it for a couple days now.
01:05:41 <Twingamerdudes> oof, hope you fix it
01:08:44 <Corbin> No worries. It's not broken; languages like Cammy haven't been explored much, so I don't know how to express common algorithms and data structures yet.
01:08:55 <imode> unfolds?
01:10:10 <Twingamerdudes> ah ok
01:11:31 <Corbin> Like, on lists. Cammy has folds; given f : 1 -> X and g : Y × X -> X, we have (fold f g) : [Y] -> X. Classic simple recursion on lists.
01:12:11 <Corbin> But Cammy is total, and that makes unfolding harder to express, because traditional unfolds are not total; they can diverge and create infinitely-long lists.
01:12:44 <Twingamerdudes> alr, I can't understand any of that code above lol, but I can understand the concept I think
01:13:18 <Corbin> No worries. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cammy might help, but probably will just be more confusing. It's okay.
01:13:43 <imode> I'm still not familiar with what an unfold is.
01:14:44 <Corbin> imode: An unfold, or anamorphism, takes a seed value and a function, and generates the (infinite) list built by repeatedly applying the function to the seed value.
01:15:23 <imode> oh, huh. that's intuitive.
01:15:32 <Twingamerdudes> ok
01:15:41 <imode> if it's total you really do have a problem.
01:16:50 <Corbin> Yep. My recent plan is to take a natural number and use it for the length of the list. Then the unfold will only take a fixed number of steps.
01:16:59 <imode> that makes sense.
01:17:10 <imode> what is `pr`.
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01:18:23 <Corbin> `pr` is primitive recursion on natural numbers. Given f : 1 -> X and g : X -> X, (pr f g) : N -> X takes a natural number, creates a seed value from f, and then applies g repeatedly to build a value.
01:18:27 <HackEso> pr`? No such file or directory
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01:18:44 <imode> ah.
01:18:47 <imode> that makes sense.
01:20:29 <Corbin> Yeah, one bite at a time, it's not so bad.
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01:32:20 <Twingamerdudes> hello
01:32:28 <Corbin> Welcome back.
01:33:59 -!- ais523 has joined.
01:34:01 <Twingamerdudes> I somehow managed to update my esolang 3 times today lol
01:34:12 <Twingamerdudes> and not for bug fixes
01:34:35 <ais523> `asm pcmpeqb mm0, mm0
01:34:37 <HackEso> 0: 0f 74 c0 pcmpeqb mm0,mm0
01:34:43 <Twingamerdudes> ?
01:34:56 <Twingamerdudes> are you guys just spamming]
01:34:58 <ais523> that's another solution to setting a 64-bit register to -1 in three bytes
01:35:06 <Twingamerdudes> ok
01:35:09 <ais523> (referring to an older conversation)
01:35:27 <ais523> so it turns out to be doable for both scalar and vector registers
01:35:49 <Twingamerdudes> alr
01:35:55 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if the push-and-immediately-pop method hits that stall bug on Intel processors
01:35:59 <ais523> might be interesting to benchmark it
01:36:24 <Twingamerdudes> well, idk if it does, I don't focus on stuff like that
01:38:31 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how long it takes with LEA
01:38:47 <ais523> `asm lea (-1), %rax
01:38:49 <HackEso> 0: 48 8d 04 25 ff ff ff ff lea 0xffffffffffffffff,%rax
01:39:13 <ais523> oh right, the bitwidths are the wrong way round
01:39:18 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89570&oldid=89563 * Twingamerdudes * (+0) /* Tips */
01:40:05 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89571&oldid=89570 * Twingamerdudes * (+1) /* Tips */
01:40:55 <zzo38> I am also reminded of in Z-machine (which works with 16-bit numbers), there is a way to set a register to -1 with three bytes, but Infocom didn't use it and used five bytes instead. (The way with three bytes uses the BCOM (bitwise complement) instruction. I don't know enough about 64-bit x86 to know how many bytes it is on 64-bit x86, though)
01:41:30 <Twingamerdudes> ok
01:43:12 <ais523> <oren> the six bytes {0xFC, 0122, 0131, 0xF3, 0xA4, 0xC3} are sufficient for memcpy ← on modern processors, the REP MOVSB near the end there is actually implemented by the processor using an incredibly complicated microcode function that works like standard library memcpys, switching between various algorithms based on what gives the best performance for the copy size, alignment, etc.
01:43:43 <ais523> although, it's still sometimes slower than the standard library version because the processor's branch prediction mechanism doesn't work on microcode, which slows down the startup a lot
01:44:07 <ais523> zzo38: on x86-64, most instructions take at least one more byte than they really should :-(
01:44:47 <Twingamerdudes> I do not understand a single bit hereXD
01:45:02 <Twingamerdudes> XD
01:45:44 <ais523> a quick summary is that it's quite similar to 32-bit x86, except that the bytes 0x48-0x4f are all prefixes that make an instruction 64-bit (the bottom three bits are used to change which register you're using for various fields of the instruction, doubling the number of registers available)
01:45:49 <ais523> so, e.g.
01:45:58 <ais523> `asm mov %ebx, %eax
01:45:59 <HackEso> 0: 89 d8 mov %ebx,%eax
01:46:05 <ais523> `asm mov %rbx, %rax
01:46:07 <HackEso> 0: 48 89 d8 mov %rbx,%rax
01:46:10 <ais523> `asm mov %rbx, %r8
01:46:11 <HackEso> 0: 49 89 d8 mov %rbx,%r8
01:46:12 <Twingamerdudes> ok
01:46:14 <ais523> like that
01:46:42 <ais523> if you don't have the prefix, you get 32-bit instructions which zero the top half of every register they write to (for performance reasons)
01:46:59 <ais523> this means that in 64-bit code, basically every instruction starts with a 4 nybble
01:47:00 <Twingamerdudes> ok
01:47:33 <ais523> (0x40-0x47 are also prefixes, they give you the extra registers while leaving the instruction 32/16/8-bit)
01:49:16 <ais523> this is why the solution for setting the register to -1 used push/pop, because those are 64 bits by default
01:50:38 <Corbin> ais523: Insightful. Well golfed.
01:51:37 <ais523> I think I generally prefer the vector unit instruction set to the scalar unit instruction set (although it's a bit odd that they're different)
01:52:05 <ais523> vector comparisons don't use flags, they return the comparison result in a vector, and they use the convention of true = -1, so you can zero a vector register by comparing it with itself
01:52:21 <ais523> fortunately, the 64-bit vector registers are the ones that don't use the prefix (because they got added first)
01:54:45 <ais523> `asm pcmpeqb %mm5, %mm5; pcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5; vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %xmm5; vpcmpeqb %ymm5, %ymm5, %ymm5; vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %k5; vcmpeqb %ymm5, %ymm5, %k5; vcmpeqb %zmm5, %zmm5, %k5
01:54:46 <HackEso> ​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `vcmpeqb %ymm5,%ymm5,%k5' \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `vcmpeqb %zmm5,%zmm5,%k5' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `vpcmpeqb' \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `vcmpeqb %ymm5,%ymm5,%k5' \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `vcmpeqb %zmm5,%zmm5,%k5'
01:54:57 <ais523> `asm pcmpeqb %mm5, %mm5; pcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5; vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %xmm5; vpcmpeqb %ymm5, %ymm5, %ymm5
01:54:59 <HackEso> 0: 0f 74 ed pcmpeqb %mm5,%mm5 \ 3: 66 0f 74 ed pcmpeqb %xmm5,%xmm5 \ 7: c5 d1 74 ed vpcmpeqb %xmm5,%xmm5,%xmm5 \ b: c5 d5 74 ed vpcmpeqb %ymm5,%ymm5,%ymm5
01:55:06 <Twingamerdudes> asm code lol
01:55:48 <ais523> I wonder whether the AVX-512 instructions aren't programmed into `asm, or whether I got the syntax wrong
01:55:50 * sprout_ looks up
01:56:04 <ais523> (I'm not very familiar with them, I don't have an AVX-512 processor)
01:56:09 <sprout_> hmm, I am in the company of real men. maybe listen
01:56:44 <Twingamerdudes> ok
02:01:58 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x62, 0x01, 0x55, 0x08, 0x74, 0xed
02:02:00 <HackEso> 0: 62 01 vpcmpeqb %xmm29,%xmm5,(bad) \ 2: 55 push %rbp \ 3: 08 .byte 0x8 \ 4: 74 ed je 0xfffffffffffffff3
02:02:16 <ais523> oh right
02:02:31 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x62, 0x01, 0x55, 0x0d, 0x74, 0xed
02:02:33 <HackEso> 0: 62 01 vpcmpeqb %xmm29,%xmm5,(bad){%k5} \ 2: 55 push %rbp \ 3: 0d .byte 0xd \ 4: 74 ed je 0xfffffffffffffff3
02:02:38 <ais523> getting closer
02:03:17 <ais523> or, less close
02:03:48 <ais523> also that is some very weird error recovery from the disassembler
02:04:06 <ais523> `asm vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %k5
02:04:08 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 55 08 74 ed vpcmpeqb %xmm5,%xmm5,%k5
02:04:17 <ais523> ah, there we go
02:04:22 <ais523> six bytes!
02:05:00 <ais523> `asm vpcmpeqb %ymm5, %ymm5, %k5
02:05:02 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 55 28 74 ed vpcmpeqb %ymm5,%ymm5,%k5
02:05:06 <ais523> `asm vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %k5
02:05:07 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 55 08 74 ed vpcmpeqb %xmm5,%xmm5,%k5
02:05:12 <ais523> `asm vpcmpeqb %zmm5, %zmm5, %k5
02:05:13 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 55 48 74 ed vpcmpeqb %zmm5,%zmm5,%k5
02:05:28 <ais523> a complete set of set-register-to--1 instructions, probably
02:05:32 <Twingamerdudes> why is this account hackeso printing some output thing of your asm code
02:05:34 <ais523> (allowing for the ones we wrote earlier)
02:05:40 <ais523> because I asked it to
02:05:43 <ais523> it's a bot
02:05:48 <Twingamerdudes> I felt like it
02:05:48 <ais523> `echo Hello. world!
02:05:49 <HackEso> Hello. world!
02:05:53 <Twingamerdudes> cool
02:06:00 <ais523> `rev abcde
02:06:01 <HackEso> rev: cannot open abcde: No such file or directory
02:06:02 <ais523> err
02:06:03 <Twingamerdudes> `echo Hello. world
02:06:04 <HackEso> Hello. world
02:06:13 <ais523> `` echo abcde | rev
02:06:14 <HackEso> edcba
02:06:34 <Twingamerdudes> `echo I am a bot!
02:06:35 <HackEso> I am a bot!
02:06:57 <ais523> it's a useful addition to conversations because it can be used to quickly test things, or to demonstrate a point
02:07:17 <ais523> also it's better at encoding AVX-512 instructions than I am, apparently
02:07:31 <Twingamerdudes> ok
02:10:17 <ais523> I should get an up-to-date copy of AMD manuals, if/when they implement AVX-512; they're generally easier to read, especially when it comes to instruction encodings
02:10:22 <Twingamerdudes> ok
02:10:51 <Twingamerdudes> `` echo ko | rev
02:10:52 <HackEso> ok
02:11:00 <Twingamerdudes> I love playing with this bot lol
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02:22:33 <Twingamerdudes> ` echo I am a bot
02:22:34 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
02:24:27 -!- Twingamerdudes has quit (Quit: Client closed).
02:28:36 <shachaf> ais523: Not including VEX instructions, which encode the REX bits more efficiently, if I remember correctly.
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02:32:30 <ais523> shachaf: the VEX/EVEX prefixes come with an implied 4, i.e. you don't need (and can't use) a separate REX prefix because you have 4 bits for that purpose dedicated in the VEX/EVEX
02:33:23 <ais523> although, there are two VEX prefixes, a long and a short one – only the long version has room for all four of the REX prefix bits, the other one only has one (plus one more that has a similar purpose but affects the "v" register which non-vector instructions don't have)
02:33:24 <shachaf> Right. I guess it's not exactly "more efficient", it's just "not even less efficient".
02:33:51 <ais523> so if you happen to need one of the remaining bits of the REX prefix, that can force you from the short to the long VEX prefix and cost you just as much
02:34:04 <shachaf> When I was encoding x86 instructions I stopped before VEX.
02:34:14 <shachaf> How many registers should an instruction set have?
02:34:36 <ais523> and EVEX is sort-of like a superprefix that can handle any other combination of prefixes plus a lot more of its own, at the cost of being four bytes long
02:35:13 <ais523> register count is an interesting problem because modern processors have a lot more registers internally than the instruction set supports
02:35:34 <ais523> so what you actually need isn't so much a count of registers, but a method of specifying which instructions should connect to which other instructions
02:36:02 <shachaf> Sure, I mean register names.
02:36:17 <ais523> on most processors you do that by specifying the same register number in the two instructions, but I'm not convinced that that's the best option – in many cases it doesn't matter whether they both name %rcx or both name %rdx
02:36:22 <shachaf> Unless you do something entirely different like the Mill.
02:36:48 <ais523> right, the Mill has the right general idea (although I think they should have explicit outputs and implicit inputs rather than the other way round)
02:36:49 <shachaf> Which seems pretty nice to me but I don't know about the details of implementing it.
02:37:14 <shachaf> Ah, interesting, what would that look like?
02:37:14 <ais523> the Mill's approach doesn't scale
02:37:43 <ais523> each instruction would specify the number of instructions after which the result would be used
02:38:19 <ais523> so they don't specify inputs (other than memory inputs), only where the outputs go
02:38:21 <shachaf> And if an instruction takes multiple inputs it would have multiple previous instructions pointing to it?
02:38:25 <ais523> right
02:38:42 <ais523> although, you probably want to explicitly say which argument you're pointing to
02:38:50 <shachaf> That sounds kind of awful to write for, even more than the Mill.
02:38:55 <shachaf> By hand, I mean.
02:38:55 <ais523> the biggest downside of this is that you need some way to explicitly copy an output that's going to be used more than once
02:39:08 <shachaf> What's the benefit? That you don't have to emit things if you don't use them?
02:39:10 <ais523> the upside is that it scales really well, supporting pretty much arbitrary distances
02:39:30 <ais523> because the processor doesn't need fast codepaths for all possible distances, only for the small ones
02:39:35 <ais523> err, fast datapaths
02:39:49 <shachaf> Hmm.
02:39:51 <ais523> if an instruction says "use the result 100 instructions later" then it probably doesn't matter if that's implemented in a really slow way, it'll still get tehre in time
02:40:23 <ais523> in the Mill, though, if it says "use the result from 100 instructions ago" then the processor would either need to speculatively execute a very long way forwards, or else stall in order to find the value from wherever it was
02:40:46 <shachaf> Or you'd need to have occasional forwarding instructions as it's about to fall off the belt.
02:40:53 <ais523> because you can't realistically connect every execution unit to 100 different input sources within a single cycle
02:40:53 <shachaf> Which I think is what they do?
02:41:24 <Corbin> I think that they've described a technique for bumping values to keep them on the belt, but AIUI their prototype compiler always spills to memory instead.
02:41:30 <ais523> I think they use either registers or temporary memory for that, otherwise all the forwarding instructions would slow things down too much
02:42:05 <Corbin> ISTR that the Mill specifies fast scratch memory ("scratchpad") of some sort, so spills aren't as expensive as on x86/ARM.
02:42:13 <ais523> my mental model of my antibelt is to have fast interconnects for small values, some sort of shift register for medium values, and an L1-cache-like thing for large values
02:42:30 <ais523> where by "values" I mean distances
02:42:46 <ais523> spills aren't expensive even on x86
02:43:08 <Corbin> Huh. How does that sort of p-adic connectivity come about? That is pretty interesting.
02:43:39 <ais523> the AMD Zen 2 has memory spills that are as fast as registers are; it's widely speculated that it has some sort of cache for spilled registers
02:43:49 <ais523> although, the AMD Zen 3 doesn't, probably because it isn't worth the transistors
02:43:54 <Corbin> Nifty, TIL.
02:44:25 <shachaf> Is this the thing people call "memory renaming"?
02:44:43 <ais523> Intel has a three-cycle lockout for spills, if you spill a register you can't read the memory you spilled it to for three clock cycles (although the spill is done in the background so your program can do the rest of its execution during that time)
02:45:04 <ais523> shachaf: I haven't heard of that, but it would be an obvious parallel with register renaming
02:45:50 <ais523> the main drawbacks of spills are a) the instruction needed to spill, b) the memory read/write port usage which prevents you doing memory accesses in parallel, c) polluting the L1 cache
02:46:08 <ais523> (although spills to the stack don't pollute the L1 cache much, because that gets accessed all the time anyway so it tends to naturally be in L1)
02:49:05 <ais523> anyway, if you are using the register-names method of linking instructions, x86-64's 16 seem to generally be enough in my experience, just about
02:49:26 <ais523> the main time you run low is during procedure calls, due to calling conventions being inflexible
02:50:00 <ais523> and spills by their nature tend to be in the outer loops (which generally aren't performance-sensitive) as opposed to the inner loops (which are)
02:50:13 <ais523> x86's 8 is not enough
02:51:22 <ais523> although, in order to make some loops work, it's useful to have a very cheap MOV instruction available
02:52:05 <ais523> register-register MOV is very cheap on modern processors, it takes up resources in fetch and decode but not anywhere else, the instruction's handled by the register renamer rather than the normal execute units
02:52:43 <ais523> 4/cycle throughput, 0-cycle latency
02:54:00 <ais523> that compensates for one of the issues that registers have (that if you want to be able to assign to a particular register but still have the old value around, you need a MOV – often you need to do this because registers need to have the same name on every iteration of a loop, forcing you to use a particular register for something)
02:55:34 <ais523> like, say I have a loop where, on every iteration, I call a function, then write the sum of the five most recent return values of the function into an array
02:56:00 <ais523> unless I unroll it, this is going to need a ridiculous amount of MOV to keep the register names the same on every iteration
02:56:37 <ais523> because "most recent value" and "second-most recent value" and "third-most recent value" and "fourth-most recent value" and "fifth-most recent value" all need to be in registers, and need to be moved from one of those registers to another every iteration
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03:06:02 <ais523> hmm, I decided to code it to see what a compiler did with it: https://godbolt.org/z/MossdKGeo
03:07:36 <ais523> even with 16 registers, it has to spill two, because there are only 6 call-preserved registers in the x86-64 ABI (and it needs uses three of them to remember the array length, the array location, and the loop counter)
03:08:30 <ais523> …that's clearly beatable, you could store the array end location and current array position using just two registers and save a spill
03:09:13 <ais523> actually this code is amazingly optimizable
03:09:21 <ais523> let me try it in C, to see if the compilers do any better with that
03:10:10 <shachaf> Do calling conventions need to be inflexible?
03:11:01 <shachaf> Could a compiler easily just annotate each function with some extra metadata about how many registers it wants, so callers can save fewer registers?
03:12:31 <shachaf> Also, this vaguely reminds me of https://cr.yp.to/qhasm/20050210-fxch.txt which is kind of neat.
03:13:00 <shachaf> I wonder what happens with various alternatives to registers in these sorts of situations.
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03:15:16 <ais523> looks like gcc can save the spill, but clang can't (which explains why rustc couldn't, it uses the same backend as clang): https://godbolt.org/z/6End4sY7a
03:15:56 <ais523> although, gcc makes stack space for a second spill despite not actually doing the spill
03:16:31 <ais523> <shachaf> Do calling conventions need to be inflexible? Could a compiler easily just annotate each function with some extra metadata about how many registers it wants, so callers can save fewer registers? ← I think compilers could and ought to do that, but in practice they don't
03:16:36 <ais523> I've actually been really tempted to write my own that does
03:19:54 <ais523> one interesting thing that both compilers did was to zero %rax (a call-clobbered register) before making the function call
03:20:22 <ais523> there's got to be a good reason for that, if both clang and gcc are doing it, but I don't offhand know what it is
03:20:30 <shachaf> That's the varargs convention, right?
03:20:38 <shachaf> rax stores the number of floating point registers used, or something?
03:20:41 <ais523> oh, duh, I just realised that
03:20:43 <ais523> and then saw your comment saying it
03:20:49 <shachaf> I guess f isn't varargs.
03:21:05 <ais523> it is, I forgot to put "void" in the arguments list
03:21:14 <shachaf> I think a "()" function pointer can't be used for varargs, but I'm not sure.
03:21:20 <ais523> if I do, the zeroing of %rax disappears
03:21:57 <ais523> or, well, it might not be varargs, but the compiler doesn't have any proof it isn't varargs
03:22:08 <shachaf> I thought it was allowed to assume that in this situation.
03:22:16 <shachaf> At least someone told me that once.
03:22:55 <ais523> even with --std=c11 the compiler doesn't assume it isn't varargs unless I put an explicit 'void' in there
03:23:28 <ais523> maybe this is backwards compatibility with the pre-<stdarg.h> varargs mechanism?
03:24:07 <shachaf> I guess any "()" function is sort of using a deprecated mechanism so who knows.
03:25:40 <ais523> <System V ABI> For calls that may call functions that use varargs or stdargs (prototype-less calls or calls to functions containing ellipsis (...) in the declaration) %al is used as hidden argument to specify the number of vector registers used.
03:27:12 <ais523> so I guess it's required by the standard, due to the possibility of calling a non-stdarg varargs function
03:28:54 <ais523> btw, in addition to varying the calling convention per-function to change which registers are call-preserved, I think it's useful to change it per-function in other ways
03:30:06 <ais523> such as stack alignment, and even the representation of data types (e.g. if a function is going to start by sign-extending its 16-bit arguments to 32 bits regardless, it makes sense to ask the caller to do that in case the caller can do it as a side effect of another instruction rather than needing a separate movsx instruction)
03:32:22 <ais523> although you probably need a consistent convention for function pointers
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03:44:41 <fizzie> A "() function" pointer can indeed not be used to call a varargs function.
03:45:40 <fizzie> C11 6.5.2.2p6: "If the expression that denotes the called function has a type that does not include a prototype -- [and if] the function is defined with a type that includes a prototype, and -- the prototype ends with an ellipsis `(, ...)` -- the behavior is undefined."
03:46:22 <shachaf> I guess C11 and the System V ABI disagree on this.
03:47:10 <fizzie> It also can't be used to call a non-varargs function that has parameters with types that are changed by default argument promotions, but that's more obvious.
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07:41:56 <b_jonas> ais523: would it be against the spirit of that exercise to store some of those five values in an xmm register, both because then you have extra call-preserved space, and because you can shift four ints in it with a shufps instruction?
07:45:22 <b_jonas> oh yeah, you also get to use the phadd instruction to add the five numbers with just three instructions instead of four
07:45:45 <b_jonas> the phaddd instruction
07:47:23 <b_jonas> (or with just paddd if you reuse both the shifted and the original version and you're writing avx2 code)
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10:09:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89572&oldid=89333 * AmNow * (+28) cool
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11:06:46 <APic> Moin
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11:58:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CuFeNiCoZn * New user account
12:03:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89573&oldid=89536 * CuFeNiCoZn * (+188) /* Introductions */
12:04:45 <esolangs> [[User:CuFeNiCoZn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89574 * CuFeNiCoZn * (+9) Created page with "test test"
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12:14:07 <esolangs> [[Call/cc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89575&oldid=71449 * CuFeNiCoZn * (-285) Remove subjective wording
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12:56:18 <riv> hey why dont people prove that some 1D CAs are turing complete without infinite input?
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12:56:25 <riv> its about time right?
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13:12:43 <int-e> riv: It's boring at that level of generality; any TM can be implemented by a 1D CA
13:13:02 <riv> i mean rule 30 and stuff
13:13:18 <int-e> so you mean a specific 1D CA.
13:13:24 <riv> wait i forget is rule 30 the same as rule 110
13:13:38 <riv> yes a specific one, but it could be any of them - i think only rule 30 has been looked at
13:15:44 <int-e> I thought Wolfram (and probably others before him) looked at all of them and only a few of them showed chaotic enough behavior to be plausibly TC
13:16:08 <riv> by looked at i mean.. someone actually showed its turing complete
13:18:18 <int-e> also rule 30 isn't the same as rule 110
13:23:04 <int-e> riv: anyway, why don't you do it
13:23:19 <int-e> don't leave it to people
13:24:01 <riv> i was thinking that it would be really difficult
13:25:00 <riv> basically one needs to come up with predictable gadgets inside that random mess, that seems like the hard part. then (if you have enough) you can probably just combine them to make up a language
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14:06:34 <riv> or there could be other ways? any ideas?
14:07:10 <riv> I suppose you have a big problem of dealing with having to loop over 2^n cases, if you want to brute force search for stuff
14:11:13 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89576&oldid=89569 * PixelatedStarfish * (-25) /* Grammar */
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14:38:07 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89577&oldid=89537 * GingerIndustries * (+397) Added Turing completeness
14:38:42 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89578&oldid=89577 * GingerIndustries * (+12) /* Special numbers */
14:40:40 <riv> i guess you want some kind of memory cell that you can repeat
14:41:32 <riv> so ideally you would want to find 2 patterns A,B sch that some X in L[AB]+R would eventually give you back X
14:46:56 <riv> although it would be okay for these things to be sequences
14:47:15 <riv> A_i becomes A_{i+1}
14:47:32 <riv> i wonder if there are any completely different approaches
14:47:37 <riv> maybe this kind of thing is too structural
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15:37:01 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89579&oldid=89550 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16)
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18:09:20 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89580&oldid=89576 * PixelatedStarfish * (+20) /* Operation Codes */
18:09:37 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89581&oldid=89580 * PixelatedStarfish * (-106) /* Error Messages */
18:41:28 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89582&oldid=89581 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) /* Operation Codes */
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20:27:25 <Twingamerdudes> hello
20:27:40 <Corbin> Afternoon.
20:28:02 <Twingamerdudes> just came back from school, I'm just vibing rn
20:30:54 <riv> hi
20:34:07 <Twingamerdudes> hello
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20:42:43 <zzo38> I had the complaint before about implicit token names in Magic: the Gathering, but it looks like they fixed this now (perhaps not in quite the same way that I did, but what they did works too).
20:43:07 <Twingamerdudes> ok
20:44:24 <riv> I don't know what implicit token names are
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20:55:32 <zzo38> When an effect creates tokens without specifying their names.
20:55:52 <riv> and what is the problem with that?
20:56:02 <riv> a name is desired?
20:57:06 <riv> have you considered using 1D CA for computation?
20:57:16 <riv> like rule 110
20:59:12 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_cellular_automaton
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21:04:32 <zzo38> They already had names assigned automatically and still do, but befor, the names could previously match the names of cards even if they didn't specifically say a name of a card; now they won't match.
21:04:58 <riv> OK
21:10:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: how did they fix it?
21:10:26 <b_jonas> oh
21:11:10 <b_jonas> so the names made of subtypes no longer match the normal names?
21:11:13 <b_jonas> good
21:12:06 <b_jonas> Hollow Dogs still aren't skeletons apparently. that's the only fix I'd care about :-)
21:12:18 <b_jonas> (not quite the only)
21:15:11 <b_jonas> there's a certain rules change about multiplayer that I'd like, namely that if you resign, then you are immediately no longer allowed to make the decisions that the rules and cards call for, just like with the current rules, but most of the other effects of losing the game, like removing your cards from the game, don't happen immediately, but only the next time that state-based effects are processed
21:16:23 <b_jonas> I'd like this because you can resign any time, which is reasonable because if the player person has to leave for some reason then there's no point the rules should pretend that that they can't do that, and it makes sense that they can no longer make decisions too,
21:16:46 <b_jonas> but the part that moves objects between zones is awkward to process if it's allowed any time
21:17:53 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89583&oldid=89571 * Twingamerdudes * (+56) Added new comparison and fixed a example
21:19:33 <b_jonas> and state-based actions are designed for this: we don't want objects to move immediately any time when they have lethal damage, so we only move them at state-based action time.
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21:51:26 <zzo38> How can I mirror a collection of documents from Wayback archive without the JavaScripts, CSS, and other HTML commands that have been added by Wayback archive?
22:08:44 <int-e> apparently you can append id_ to the timestamp and it'll do that... http://web.archive.org/web/20211112211213id_/https://example.com/
22:09:02 <int-e> via https://github.com/hartator/wayback-machine-downloader/blob/master/lib/wayback_machine_downloader.rb#L271
22:09:31 <int-e> https://archive.org/help/wayback_api.php doesn't say anything about that
22:11:35 <fizzie> https://archive.org/post/1008502/faq-on-id_-wayback-toolbar-removal -- apparently it used to be in the FAQ, but disappeared.
22:12:10 <fizzie> A more suspicious mind might think of some collusion with the third-party sites that, for a fee, "recover" your site from archive.org, that they do still link to.
22:13:22 <int-e> Ah, it makes sense that wikipedia would want to document this kind of thing.
22:17:36 <zzo38> OK, for downloading a single file, adding "id_" works. However, I want to download an entire set of files.
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2021-11-13
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00:55:24 <ais523> b_jonas: *all* the vector registers are call-clobbered
00:55:46 <ais523> which is ridiculous, but necessary for code compiled against different vector units to be able to link to each other
00:58:06 <ais523> (actually I'm not sure about the last 16 %zmm registers, which didn't exist at the time the ABI was written – some of those could reasonably be call-preserved because code that isn't aware of them has no way of mentioning them and thus can't clobber them by mistake)
01:00:11 <Twingamerdudes> ok
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01:13:05 <zzo38> Then, maybe should allow to make calling conventions that can be supersets/subsets of other calling conventions, so that in some cases it might be possible to specify a function of a different calling convention than expected but can still work. There might also be some cases (although probably not common) that is possible to convert a calling convention by address adjustment.
01:16:18 <zzo38> Maybe then it will not be necessary to make all of the vector registers to be call-clobbered.
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01:32:51 <Twingamerdudes83> bruh, someone took my name, idc my ya know, annoying
01:33:21 <Twingamerdudes83> or, it could have gone stuck, I mean, it has same color as when I was logged into it
01:33:29 <Twingamerdudes83> guess it must be stuck
01:33:30 <Twingamerdudes83> oof
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01:36:10 <Twingamerdudes> there we go, my account is now unstuck
01:36:23 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89584&oldid=89583 * Twingamerdudes * (+134) Added else statment
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01:40:18 <Corbin> Twingamerdudes: If you register your account, then you can tell IRC services that your old connection is a "ghost" and that the nickname should be reassigned to you.
01:40:35 <Twingamerdudes> ok
01:40:38 <Corbin> Because this kicks the old connection, it can't be done with unregistered nicks.
01:41:18 <Twingamerdudes> alr
01:44:48 <Twingamerdudes> just registered
01:46:34 <oerjan> riv: i don't know about the random mess of rule 30, but rule 110 _does_ have gadgets (the gliders), but the known construction needs an infinite pattern. you'd need to find some kind of glider gun. also you'd need to make it work in a field that only expands leftwards, because rule 110 cannot grow rightwards into a 0 field.
01:48:36 <Twingamerdudes> I also updated mash
01:48:55 <oerjan> on the bright side, i once investigated how rule 110 grows leftwards, and it's so fast that nothing can catch up to it and can be made to behave essentially as if it were a preexisting leftwards infinite "ether" pattern.
01:49:51 <oerjan> (alternatively, there are variants where it also spouts rightwards gliders in the process. which i suppose _is_ a kind of glider gun, but with limited number of options.)
01:51:07 <oerjan> oh iirc some of the options were actually _leftwards_ gliders, just not as fast as the expansion itself.
01:53:06 <Corbin> Twingamerdudes: Fun! I'm glad that you're contributing.
01:56:37 <oerjan> actually there may have always been gliders, but some were fast enough to never interfere
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02:03:02 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/r110.txt is the mess where i listed the options
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03:00:27 <esolangs> [[Alisj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89585&oldid=88998 * Squidmanescape * (+988)
03:05:27 <esolangs> [[Alisj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89586&oldid=89585 * Squidmanescape * (-51)
03:12:06 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89587&oldid=89318 * Squidmanescape * (+12)
03:14:46 <esolangs> [[Positional]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89588 * Xorol * (+252) Created page with "Positional is a chess-based esolang. As the name suggests, it parses a chess position as code. Still WIP, but here's what I'm thinking: * Storage system that is an array with..."
03:20:27 <esolangs> [[No.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89589&oldid=75655 * Squidmanescape * (+167)
03:36:00 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89590&oldid=89587 * Squidmanescape * (+77)
03:40:09 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89591&oldid=89590 * Squidmanescape * (-1)
03:40:45 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89592&oldid=89591 * Squidmanescape * (-57)
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05:51:53 <esolangs> [[Arepo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89593 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+5859) Created a page for Arepo
05:55:05 <esolangs> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89594&oldid=87385 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+63) Added new languages to list
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12:03:11 <b_jonas> ais523: ah sorry, you're right that all the xmm registers are scratch registers on unix. but I think you have the reasoning backwards. registers that don't yet exist when the abi is decided must be scratch registers, because user-space context changes can't preserve them if the implementation of the context change functions were written before those registers existed.
12:04:19 <b_jonas> also the top of ymm registers also didn't yet exist when the ABI was decided, because the first x86_64 cpus only have SSE2, and my old home computer had an x86_64 cpu that only has SSE4_1 instructions but no AVX so no ymm registers
12:06:43 <riv> thanks for the info oerjan!
12:14:39 <b_jonas> oh and, this might be obvious but it took me a while to realize. do you know why the existing 128-bit vector register instructions from SSE2 must preserve the top of ymm registers, even though this is clearly bad both because the cpu has to do extra work to keep the top halves, and inconvenient for new software that uses ymm? it's because there can be existing interrupt handler (or signal handler)
12:14:45 <b_jonas> functions using those old instructions, and they must not change the top of ymm registers because the function that the interrupt handler interrupted might be using it. on the other hand, the new AVX instructions aren't limited this way, so they zero the top of ymm registers when they write to an xmm register.
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13:51:09 <esolangs> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89595&oldid=73676 * FAKE1007 * (-2657) Replaced content with "<!-- trash, deprecated and forgotten --> /del"
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19:47:23 <fizzie> Getting a little tired of every single thing I run printing a few "this version of `which' is deprecated; use `command -v' in scripts instead." messages. :/
20:07:06 <int-e> fizzie: Yeah that is such a useless message when you invoke a third party script or program.
20:09:06 <int-e> though hmm, I don't see it much? `thunderbird` has a wrapper script using `which`
20:10:00 <int-e> Hmm I guess the "intelligent" bash autocompletion would be susceptible too.
20:43:36 <fizzie> I was building OpenWRT.
20:43:43 <fizzie> The build process and other assorted scripts do a lot of it.
20:47:47 <int-e> fizzie: you /could/ comment out the 4th line in /usr/bin/which :P
20:50:09 <int-e> or prefix it with something like [[ -z "$QUIET_WHICH" ]] &&
21:21:59 <esolangs> [[Arepo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89596&oldid=89593 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+1593) Finished page for now
21:29:30 <esolangs> [[Arepo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89597&oldid=89596 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+141) Thought of a couple more ideas
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21:55:32 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89598&oldid=83256 * Quintopia * (-828) This algorithm is in all ways superseded by Urban's original below it, so removing it to clean up a very long page.
22:09:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sunarch * New user account
22:19:22 <zzo38> Do you have 8x8 fonts for some other IBM code pages? (Later I can add other sizes too, and also multibyte encodings, but currently not.)
22:39:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89599&oldid=89573 * Sunarch * (+196) /* Introductions */
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00:49:03 <zzo38> TRON time starts at 1985 (instead of 1970 like UNIX time does). TRON defines sixteen mouse cursor shapes, all of which are shapes of hands. TRON also has its own instruction set, which includes instruction for queue manipulation, too. (TRON is also listed in the "User:Ian/Computer_architectures" in esolang wiki.) (Note: Much of information is Japanese, so I may have made some mistakes.)
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01:09:04 <imode> TRON? as in.. the movie?
01:09:11 <imode> or is there an esolang.
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01:13:54 <zzo38> Neither.
01:17:51 <zzo38> (Although, it may be possible making up esolang that is using the TRON character codes or TRON time codes or whatever)
01:20:20 <imode> the game, then?
01:30:03 <zzo38> It is "The Real-time Operating-system Nucleus".
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01:41:07 <imode> can you give me like a link.
01:41:35 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project has a bunch of links.
01:41:49 <imode> huh.
01:42:41 <imode> queue manipulation, huh.
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02:27:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Juliesinspaaace * New user account
02:32:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89600&oldid=89599 * Juliesinspaaace * (+246) Added my introduction
02:37:13 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89601&oldid=86714 * Juliesinspaaace * (+161) Added link to YABFC
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03:09:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89602&oldid=89579 * Mellobacon * (+13) /* M */
03:10:26 <esolangs> [[Madlad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89603&oldid=89533 * Mellobacon * (+0)
03:24:03 <zzo38> I tried to translate some of the TRON documentation from Japanese into English (and looking at other files too, to figure out some things I could not figure out or that are not mentioned in one of them, such as the D type (64-bits)), but probably it is all mixed up, because I am not very good Japanese.
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06:09:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Terrible]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89604 * Xorol * (+68) Created page with "Can this be deleted? ~~~"
06:40:20 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89605&oldid=89516 * Xorol * (+162)
06:42:05 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89606&oldid=89228 * Xorol * (+146) Added an implementation in [[Numbers]]
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09:56:23 <esolangs> [[E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89607&oldid=89279 * Squidmanescape * (+54)
09:56:54 <esolangs> [[E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89608&oldid=89607 * Squidmanescape * (+0)
10:03:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dj1vs * New user account
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11:32:13 <Melvar> Wait, what’s this about deprecated `which`?
11:42:11 <riv> dont ask
11:42:39 <riv> https://lwn.net/Articles/874049/
11:42:41 <riv> so annoying
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11:55:30 <Melvar> Huh. Never knew it wasn’t standardized, nor that it was implemented as a shell script anywhere (my system has a shell function wrapping GNU which).
11:55:34 <Melvar> riv: Thanks.
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13:51:29 <fizzie> The part I don't understand is this insinuation that `command -v` is equivalent, when it blatantly isn't.
13:53:01 <fizzie> The `which` commands looks up executables in the path, `command -v` prints shell built-ins as just a name and aliases with a messy alias definition. Sure, it's "more correct" in terms of what the shell would execute given that as a command line, but maybe you *wanted* the executable, even when there's a builtin or alias with the same name.
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15:02:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89609&oldid=89600 * Dj1vs * (+128) /* Introductions */
15:03:00 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89610&oldid=89001 * Dj1vs * (+83)
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15:22:49 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89611&oldid=89064 * Corbin * (+461) Fix example at top of page. Relax titles. Explain how to use floating-point object.
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15:37:02 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89612&oldid=89610 * Dj1vs * (+6)
16:49:13 <Franciman> kudos to Cale
16:49:16 <Franciman> err
16:49:17 <Franciman> to Corbin
16:49:20 <Franciman> well to Cale too :P
16:49:26 <Franciman> I saw the link on lobste.rs to Cammy
16:52:39 <Corbin> Yeah, I finally decided to share it.
16:53:18 <Franciman> well played, sensei
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17:31:41 <fizzie> I keep forgetting about fungot.
17:31:42 <fungot> fizzie: where is macro tutorial? for scheme48?
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19:40:07 <Melvar> fizzie: You cannot rely on that. In some shells, `which` is a builtin and thus also knows about aliases and functions. GNU `which` supports receiving aliases and shell functions on standard input with a couple options, which is meant to be wrapped in a shell function to feed those in.
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19:43:09 <Melvar> So, if I use `which which`, it will print a bash function definition wrapping /usr/bin/which, which is GNU `which`.
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22:24:00 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89613&oldid=89582 * PixelatedStarfish * (+58) /* Error Messages */
22:24:27 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89614&oldid=89613 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Hello World */
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22:26:07 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89615&oldid=89614 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
22:26:16 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89616&oldid=89561 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+22) Undo revision 89561 by [[Special:Contributions/Guy Fawkes Rep|Guy Fawkes Rep]] ([[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep|talk]])
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22:27:28 <Twingamerdudes> hello
22:28:31 <Kit> hello
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22:31:22 <Kit> bye
22:31:27 <Kit> lol
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23:54:24 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89617&oldid=89616 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (-22) This is annoying
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2021-11-15
00:04:16 -!- Twingamerdudes has joined.
00:04:30 <Twingamerdudes> hello
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02:15:53 <esolangs> [[5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89618&oldid=79216 * Oerjan * (-4) /* Computational class */ Doesn't need a link to a useless page
02:16:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Terrible]]": Not esoteric or particularly useful
02:18:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Terrible]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89619&oldid=89604 * Oerjan * (+185) Done
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02:41:32 <esolangs> [[.Gertrude]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89620&oldid=40473 * Oerjan * (+27) /* External resources */ Add category people seem to be using
02:45:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89621 * Oerjan * (+225) Stop.
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05:51:22 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89622&oldid=89617 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+22) Undo revision 89617 by [[Special:Contributions/Guy Fawkes Rep|Guy Fawkes Rep]] ([[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep|talk]])
05:51:43 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89623&oldid=89615 * PixelatedStarfish * (+39) /* Operation Codes */
05:52:22 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89624&oldid=89623 * PixelatedStarfish * (-40) /* Operation Codes */
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07:53:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ian/Computer architectures]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89625 * Zzo38 * (+445) TRON instruction set
08:15:16 <esolangs> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89626&oldid=53577 * Quintopia * (+82) /* Hello, World! */
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10:01:13 <esolangs> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89627&oldid=89626 * Quintopia * (+990) python 3
10:03:02 <esolangs> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89628&oldid=89627 * Quintopia * (+17) formatting
10:05:37 <esolangs> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89629&oldid=89628 * Quintopia * (+0) f strings are better
10:17:42 <esolangs> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89630&oldid=89629 * Quintopia * (+8) nice to see the array in the correct order
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12:28:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Turk * New user account
12:38:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89631&oldid=89609 * Turk * (+180)
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16:54:26 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ7bcCrJMHc
16:54:33 <riv> A Brief Introduction to Esoteric Programming Languages
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18:01:45 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89632&oldid=89405 * Rphii * (+966) improvement on many details
18:24:50 <esolangs> [[User:TheThunderGuyS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89633&oldid=79572 * TheThunderGuyS * (+175) Add things
18:32:36 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89634&oldid=89601 * TheThunderGuyS * (+159) Add brainfuck.h
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20:24:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tin4.schneider * New user account
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21:25:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skreks * New user account
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21:51:20 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89635&oldid=89584 * Twingamerdudes * (+1303) Added math operators and the calculator program.
21:51:29 <Twingamerdudes> hello
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22:28:57 <esolangs> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89636&oldid=89630 * Quintopia * (-67) /* Hello, World! */
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22:47:06 <Twingamerdudes> hello
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22:50:11 <Twingamerdudes> I dare someone to make a program with my esolang
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23:58:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89637&oldid=82561 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+359) Please don't undo my edits.
2021-11-16
00:01:18 <Corbin> What a great leader~
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00:49:24 <oerjan> fungot: are you there today?
00:49:24 <fungot> oerjan: at work i do mostly php/ postgres db work
00:49:48 <oerjan> fungot: yuck
00:49:48 <fungot> oerjan: can't start a match between your foo and foo for two different things :-p) if that's what confused you
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00:50:16 <oerjan> fungot: well i'm still confused hth
00:50:16 <fungot> oerjan: i think some people have the same shortcomings as c ( like unsafety). hence, the denotation of the top-level y you had defined.
00:50:33 <oerjan> fungot: deep.
00:50:33 <fungot> oerjan: and make a frontend to produce the effect of adding 2 to t and canceling out the effect that the srfi group would be interested in.
00:50:58 <oerjan> fungot: i'm not sure they would like that.
01:05:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89638&oldid=89621 * Oerjan * (+270) I said stop.
01:09:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89639&oldid=89637 * Oerjan * (+148) /* Political party rule violation */ No.
01:10:18 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89640&oldid=89225 * Squidmanescape * (+124)
01:10:42 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89641&oldid=89640 * Squidmanescape * (+5)
01:10:53 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89642&oldid=89641 * Squidmanescape * (+1) /* =Cat */
01:12:24 <fizzie> fungot: Do you even do any work? I just thought you hang around in IRC all day.
01:12:24 <fungot> fizzie: scheme48 is good enough for ben franklin, it's good contrast to my other linux box. actually, not so far into the book
01:14:22 <fizzie> Which reminds me, the fungot box needs a reboot as well, so there will be a short further outage.
01:14:22 <fungot> fizzie: process 2 killed. and,
01:14:38 <fizzie> Very meta.
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01:32:18 * oerjan suspects whereever that franklin part came from ended with "good enough for me"
01:33:01 <oerjan> *-e
01:40:11 <b_jonas> fungot, did you feel governor Tarkin's foul stench when you were brought to the station?
01:40:12 <fungot> b_jonas: my alter ego to reconnect.
02:00:41 <oerjan> apparently fungot has a dark side
02:00:42 <fungot> oerjan: ' k. it _cannot_ be p. p. lovecraft, the colour out of space time, the website lets you choose files etc.
02:01:10 <oerjan> fungot: no it was star wars-related
02:01:11 <fungot> oerjan: they call them in danish, but also the ability to pull something like that
02:02:46 <oerjan> fungot: Det kan sgu ikke passe.
02:02:47 <fungot> oerjan: the riddle isn't working properly, you end up with dependency hell did you get
02:03:15 <oerjan> fungot: oh no
02:03:15 <fungot> oerjan: 1sec let me show php programmers them! don't do it
02:03:41 <Corbin> fungot: I think your riddles work properly.
02:03:41 <fungot> Corbin: 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf8,16,32,64 funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda
02:04:46 <Corbin> fungot: What a beautiful riddle. Thank you for sharing it with us.
02:04:47 <fungot> Corbin: you're right, no such thing as drop bears!", fnord
02:06:06 <oerjan> Corbin: i know the answer *MWAHAHAHA*
02:17:10 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89643&oldid=89642 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) /* Examples */ Formatting p
03:06:34 <zzo38> Maybe, in the program to convert a picture to a specified palette, should also be the option to force all pixels to be different colours; I don't know maybe it might be useful sometimes.
03:27:40 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89644&oldid=89624 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Operation Codes */
03:28:14 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89645&oldid=89644 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Operation Codes */
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04:16:45 <esolangs> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89646&oldid=89594 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+15) Remembered Pytho existed
04:24:01 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89647&oldid=89645 * PixelatedStarfish * (+138) /* Program Examples */
04:34:49 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89648&oldid=89647 * PixelatedStarfish * (+11) /* Truth Machine */
04:35:08 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89649&oldid=89648 * PixelatedStarfish * (-11) /* Truth Machine */
04:47:59 <Corbin> Hopefully easy question that I don't want to take to TCS SE yet: Suppose we break up a Turing-complete machine into discrete small steps. What's the minimum complexity possible for those steps?
04:48:57 <Corbin> I know that, measuring steps relative to input and program size, PTIME complexity is possible. That's easy though. Is LOGSPACE possible?
05:09:24 <esolangs> [[Expressions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89650 * DigitalDetective47 * (+6441) Created page with "'''Expressions''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:DigitalDetective47]] based around redefining the results of calculations. It has a syntax simil..."
05:10:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89651&oldid=89602 * DigitalDetective47 * (+18) /* E */
05:11:11 <esolangs> [[User:DigitalDetective47]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89652&oldid=89231 * DigitalDetective47 * (+18) Add Expressions to esolang list.
05:21:50 <oerjan> Corbin: for a Turing machine implemented as a tape with a state marker at the current position, a single step is just a three-character search and replace
05:22:15 <oerjan> so, finite automaton?
05:25:39 <oerjan> no more than LOGSPACE, anyway, if you implement it as an array with a pointer
05:27:36 <oerjan> (the finite automaton is a transducer, i suppose.)
05:28:25 <Corbin> That makes sense. I was worried that it wouldn't count because the marker for the tape positions can grow arbitrarily.
05:30:34 <oerjan> the marker doesn't need to grow if it's put _at_ that position.
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07:01:42 <wareya> https://github.com/wareya/funkshunL
07:01:52 <wareya> I made a very bad non-turing-complete language and implemented a brainfuck "interpreter" in it
07:03:01 <wareya> I say "interpreter" because the length of the interpreter has to grow linearly with respect to the runtime of the program
07:20:34 <zzo38> You could add in esolang wiki, if you want to do
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10:09:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89653&oldid=89638 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+42) Wrong link
10:09:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89654&oldid=89653 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+0)
10:12:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89655&oldid=89639 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+144) account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page) (frequent undo the same page
10:12:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Acrostic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89656 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+52) Created page with "could you add "lakh" and "crore" into the dictionary"
10:40:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89657&oldid=89655 * Corbin * (+196) /* Personal note */ Cringe.
11:40:12 <esolangs> [[User:Dj1vs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89658 * Dj1vs * (+0) Created blank page
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14:04:44 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89659&oldid=89578 * GingerIndustries * (+0)
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14:45:09 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89660&oldid=88374 * RocketRace * (+428) Bound station N & K specification
14:45:37 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89661&oldid=89660 * RocketRace * (-1) Revision*
14:55:06 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89662&oldid=89661 * RocketRace * (+500) Specify duplicate linkedness
14:56:06 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89663&oldid=89662 * RocketRace * (+1) Paragraphing
14:58:48 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89664&oldid=89663 * RocketRace * (+140) Specify bubble & lens substitutions
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14:59:26 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89665&oldid=89664 * RocketRace * (-8) phrasing
15:01:45 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89666&oldid=89665 * RocketRace * (+120) Changelog entry
15:02:08 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89667&oldid=89666 * RocketRace * (-1) is
15:06:21 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89668&oldid=89667 * RocketRace * (+128) External links
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16:00:26 <shachaf> `olist 1248
16:00:29 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1248.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:02:35 <b_jonas> @thanks HackEso
17:02:35 <lambdabot> you are welcome
17:02:38 <b_jonas> um
17:02:41 <b_jonas> that's not right
17:02:43 <b_jonas> `thanks HackEso
17:02:45 <HackEso> Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso.
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17:47:27 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89669&oldid=88322 * Spargle * (-108) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */
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18:08:03 <riv> h
18:08:05 <riv> hi
18:17:15 <VilgotanL> hi
18:17:28 <VilgotanL> cloudflare is having downtime
18:17:34 <riv> ok
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18:36:33 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89670 * PixelatedStarfish * (+265) Created page with "[[Nagawooki]] is a [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution| trivial bf substitution]] created by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] for giggles. The language is named for a nonsense word coine..."
18:36:45 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89671&oldid=89670 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
18:41:42 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89672&oldid=89671 * PixelatedStarfish * (+976)
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18:42:57 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89673&oldid=89672 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Command Lines Table */
18:43:22 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89674&oldid=89673 * PixelatedStarfish * (-13) /* Commands */
18:43:31 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89675&oldid=89674 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6) /* Command Lines Table */
18:44:19 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89676&oldid=89484 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16) /* In Chronological Order */
18:44:27 <riv> shall we have a celebration next time there is a leap second
18:45:18 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89677&oldid=89676 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Unimplemented Languages */
18:45:26 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89678&oldid=89677 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Toddler */
18:45:41 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89679&oldid=89678 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16) /* Bf Equivalents */
18:47:16 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89680&oldid=89679 * PixelatedStarfish * (+143) /* Bf Equivalents */
18:47:25 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89681&oldid=89680 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Nagawooski */
18:48:28 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89682&oldid=89681 * PixelatedStarfish * (+57) /* Bf Equivalents */
18:48:43 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89683&oldid=89682 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_equivalents Bf Equivalents */
18:49:47 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89684&oldid=89675 * PixelatedStarfish * (+36)
18:50:06 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89685&oldid=89684 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18)
18:55:35 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89686&oldid=89685 * PixelatedStarfish * (+312)
18:59:55 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89687&oldid=89686 * PixelatedStarfish * (-9) /* Hello World */
19:01:28 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89688&oldid=89687 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello World */
19:01:39 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89689&oldid=89688 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Hello World */
19:06:58 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89690&oldid=89689 * PixelatedStarfish * (+29)
19:15:13 <riv> the robot puts too many messages
19:15:21 <riv> it makes it hard to chat with people
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19:23:47 <riv> https://newsroom.ibm.com/2021-11-16-IBM-Unveils-Breakthrough-127-Qubit-Quantum-Processor
19:23:49 <zzo38> You could hide messages that you do not want
19:23:51 <riv> is this good?
19:23:58 <riv> zzo38: but it only hides them for me
19:24:05 <riv> btw, hello - good to see you
19:24:19 <riv> did you continue working on MTG and texnicard things? and free hero mesh
19:25:33 <zzo38> riv: On Free Hero Mesh, yes. I have not worked on the other things much recently, but I have done work on Free Hero Mesh, and would like some more people to join the project too (there is the #freeheromesh channel on this Libera IRC, and also a NNTP server)
19:25:43 <riv> cool!
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20:01:03 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89691 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1038) Created page with "==Command Table== {| class="wikitable" !Command !! Substitute !! Description |- | style="text-align:center"| <code>></code> |Spider|| Move the pointer to the right |- | st..."
20:04:55 <esolangs> [[Expressions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89692&oldid=89650 * DigitalDetective47 * (-37) Removed factorial program as it didn't work and added substr function.
20:08:05 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89693&oldid=89691 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Command Table */
20:13:25 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89694&oldid=89690 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Command Table */
20:15:08 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89695&oldid=89693 * PixelatedStarfish * (+255)
20:15:58 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89696&oldid=89683 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19)
20:16:27 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89697&oldid=89696 * PixelatedStarfish * (+40) /* Bf Equivalents */
20:17:24 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89698&oldid=89695 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4)
20:18:25 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89699&oldid=89698 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4)
20:35:03 <esolangs> [[Expressions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89700&oldid=89692 * DigitalDetective47 * (+1349) Added more string handling and 99 bottles of beer.
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20:50:15 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P28kp66XMw4
20:50:23 <riv> TASbot plays Pokemon Red by Lots of TASers in 12:00 - AGDQ2015 - Part 8
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21:04:59 <riv> learned from oerjans document
21:05:09 <riv> when looking at 1d CAs you can throw out all garden of eden's
21:05:18 <riv> when searching for gliders etc.
21:09:55 <int-e> Falcon < Hummingbird < Eagle, hmm
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23:18:05 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89701&oldid=89592 * Squidmanescape * (+20)
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2021-11-17
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01:40:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Acrostic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89702&oldid=89656 * Oerjan * (+55) unsigned
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01:42:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89703&oldid=89654 * Oerjan * (+219) Whoops
01:42:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89704&oldid=89703 * Oerjan * (+17) Maybe fix the link
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01:45:58 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89705&oldid=89527 * PixelatedStarfish * (+99) /* External Links */
01:46:16 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89706&oldid=89697 * PixelatedStarfish * (+122) /* BrainSoup */
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01:51:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Guy Fawkes Rep]] with an expiration time of 1 week (account creation disabled): Intimidating behavior/harassment: +Removing content from pages, ignoring warnings
01:58:13 <oerjan> Corbin: i'd respond to your cringe, but i figure the troll doesn't deserve any more entertainment.
01:59:34 <oerjan> (of course if they're in here, well, they just got a tiny bit more.)
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02:10:32 <oerjan> <riv> is this good? <-- i'm going to wait and see if it's mentioned on scott aaronson's blog
02:11:11 <oerjan> title sounds like progress, anyway
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02:12:27 <oerjan> ah new blog post, just as ordered
02:33:02 <Corbin> oerjan: No worries. Thanks for your hard work.
02:35:32 <oerjan> >_> <_<
02:39:17 <esolangs> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89707&oldid=87351 * Cortex * (+80) clarification
02:56:09 <oerjan> riv: https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=6111 (he is not impressed, mostly because the information needed to actually _tell_ whether it's good wasn't released.)
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04:17:19 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89709&oldid=89706 * PixelatedStarfish * (-123) /* BrainSoup */
04:17:31 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89710&oldid=89705 * PixelatedStarfish * (-123) /* External Links */
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08:11:23 <riv> thanks!
08:11:29 <riv> i'm quite unhappy about this
08:11:38 <riv> the IBM thing, not the scott aaronson thing
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08:23:14 <int-e> Hmm how does it affect you?
08:24:51 <riv> good point lol
08:25:20 <riv> it's just that someone did something Wrong, and this can't be allowed
08:26:17 <riv> i guess partly, my belief that people will effective quantum computers any time soon is going down a lot
08:48:56 <int-e> Hah: "[...] it's good that they're *making something with more qubits* [...]"
08:49:12 <int-e> (Didn't D-Wave already do that though :-P)
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08:50:38 <riv> ineed
08:50:41 <riv> indeed
08:51:04 <riv> im confused, is IOCCC skipping a year?
08:51:27 <riv> there's a bunch of stuff about them 'moderizing' and moving to github
08:51:50 <riv> > we plan to hold IOCCC28 in 2022 instead of 2021. Sorry for the delay, but we think you will appreciate the retooling when it is completed.
08:51:51 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:25: error: parse error on input ‘in’
08:51:54 <riv> no the site was totally fine...
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12:14:08 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89711&oldid=85559 * Dj1vs * (+154)
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15:16:03 <esolangs> [[User:Dj1vs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89712&oldid=89658 * Dj1vs * (+205)
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17:35:54 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89713&oldid=89649 * PixelatedStarfish * (+31)
17:36:24 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89714&oldid=89713 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
17:37:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:Moon.png]]"
17:38:36 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89716&oldid=89714 * PixelatedStarfish * (+8)
17:39:53 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89717&oldid=89716 * PixelatedStarfish * (-8)
17:40:54 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89718&oldid=89717 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26)
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18:03:55 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89719&oldid=89694 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12)
18:09:55 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89720&oldid=89709 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* BrainSoup */
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18:40:13 <esolangs> [[Expressions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89721&oldid=89700 * DigitalDetective47 * (+22) Added Languages category
18:41:35 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89722&oldid=89233 * DigitalDetective47 * (+48) Added Expressions
18:42:48 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89723&oldid=89386 * DigitalDetective47 * (+115) /* Implementations */ Added Expressions
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20:39:06 <int-e> hmm so trying out Rust made me realize how much I rely on #if 1 ... #else ... #endif in explorative coding in C and C++.
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21:15:39 <riv> thats weird I never use that pattern
21:21:04 <int-e> well it allows switching between two versions of some code quickly... or switch out predefined constants (which I overuse because I'm often too lazy to write input routines)
21:21:41 <int-e> as with many things it's a personal habit... and one that Rust doesn't support
21:21:47 <zzo38> I have never used that, but sometimes write "#if 0" and many other features of C that other programming languages don't do as well. (D might be one of the closest ones, though)
21:23:21 <int-e> the irony is that there is conditional compilation... but it's really just for machine configurations, not for custom flags, unless I missed something: https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/conditional-compilation.html
21:24:37 <zzo38> Why have many other programming languages to try to be better than C but are excluding many of the better features of C programming?
21:26:01 <int-e> In fact I'm probably missing something... *digs*
21:31:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Moose * New user account
21:33:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89724&oldid=89631 * Moose * (+233) /* Introductions */
21:39:06 <int-e> #[cfg(foo)] gets me some of the way there
21:41:41 <fizzie> "Our system has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail originating from your IP address" from gmail re esolangs.org wiki-originated emails. :/
21:42:24 <int-e> meh
21:42:41 <fizzie> As far as my logs go, "an unusual rate of unsolicited mail" is four in the last four days, and at least the last one (which bounced) was just the "someone has registered an account with this email address" email.
21:43:02 <int-e> (not that I rely on those)
21:43:38 <int-e> Wow, four?
21:43:59 <int-e> I expected dozens at least to look unusual
21:44:18 <fizzie> And from timing, the other three were also new account registration emails, because they're exactly the same minutes as in the user creation log.
21:45:07 <fizzie> I guess it's not impossible there's been somehow spam sent from the IP that hasn't been through the mail server and therefore isn't in the logs.
21:45:13 <fizzie> Would be nice to see some statistics.
21:45:30 <int-e> I mean, yes, this kind of registration email is unsolicited... hard to do anything about that :-/
21:45:33 <int-e> Or that. Hmm.
21:47:22 <int-e> did any of those four go to the same email address?
21:47:53 <fizzie> No, they're all distinct.
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21:58:54 <fizzie> There's a Google "Postmaster Tools" thing, where I can check my "Spam rate", but it doesn't show anything.
21:58:57 <fizzie> "Most of the Postmaster Tools dashboards will only display data when there’s a sizable daily volume of email traffic (up to the order of hundreds) coming from your authentication domains and/or certain other conditions, in place to prevent abuse."
22:00:08 <fizzie> Meh. Being an email server is hard. :/
22:01:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Chicken.jpg]]": Image of a chicken
22:01:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Dog.jpg]]": Image of a dog
22:02:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Elephant.jpg]]": Image of a elephant
22:02:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Lion.jpg]]": Image of a lion
22:02:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Rabbit.jpg]]": Image of a rabbit
22:02:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Toucan.jpg]]": Image of a toucan
22:02:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Turtle.jpg]]": Image of a turtle
22:03:11 <esolangs> [[File:Elephant.jpg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89732&oldid=89727 * Moose * (+1) /* Summary */
22:04:09 <fizzie> Oof. I hope those are all CC0 images.
22:04:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Cat.jpg]]": Image of a cat
22:28:58 <esolangs> [[Zoophilia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89734 * Moose * (+3838) Zoophilia, a Brainfuck equivalent
22:29:33 <esolangs> [[Zoophilia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89735&oldid=89734 * Moose * (+27)
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2021-11-18
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00:21:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89736&oldid=89651 * Moose * (+16) /* Z */
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00:36:58 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89737&oldid=89504 * Moose * (+102) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
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00:51:21 <oerjan> <riv> no the site was totally fine... <-- there are a lot of people with this strange delusion that new stuff is better than old hth
00:52:24 * oerjan waves his cane at them o======
00:53:15 * oerjan goes back to reading the logs in Internet Explorer
00:56:05 <fizzie> A web search suggests at least some of those images are from Unsplash, which has a *very* permissive license, but still isn't quite CC0. :/
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01:05:12 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I also write #if 1 ... #endif often. I replace it with if(1) more often, but that works better in untyped languages like python.
01:07:02 <b_jonas> int-e: that's a lie, you can use conditional compilation for any flags, the main limit is that you have to set the defines in the rustc command lines rather than from in the program source code. it's the cargo tool that restricts how the conditional compilation is used significantly, but I don't like cargo, because I'm not buying a whole religion/toolkit/platform/framework, just a decent programming
01:07:08 <b_jonas> language and good compiler for it.
01:08:04 <b_jonas> int-e: that said, that you can only set defines from command-line is limiting for this kind of use, and further, the compile-time constant computations are much less advanced than in C++ currently, so you can't easily use template replacements (rather than the preprocessor) like you often can in C++
01:09:07 <b_jonas> int-e: for just #if 1 you can write #[cfg(all())]{..}, and for #if 0 you can write #[cfg(any())]{...} but that's much more awkward than the c preprocessor version
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01:13:47 <b_jonas> I wonder if this A3 paper really is just 0.419 m long instead of 0.420 or I'm measuring it wrong with my 0.3 long ruler and lack of engineering experience
01:15:52 <b_jonas> probably the latter, I'm used to handwritten potatoes rather than precise stuff
01:20:24 <oerjan> > iterate (/2) $ sqrt 2
01:20:26 <lambdabot> [1.4142135623730951,0.7071067811865476,0.3535533905932738,0.1767766952966369...
01:20:52 <oerjan> hum
01:21:12 <oerjan> > drop 3 $ iterate (/2) $ sqrt 2
01:21:14 <lambdabot> [0.1767766952966369,8.838834764831845e-2,4.419417382415922e-2,2.209708691207...
01:21:35 <oerjan> oh wait
01:22:27 <b_jonas> I haven't cut paper with a knife at exact lines next to a ruler for so long that I almost forgot how to hold the knife to keep it along the plastic ruler but not cut into it, and how much pressure I need to just score a line vs to cut through the paper vs to cut through ten layers under it
01:23:18 <oerjan> i have forgot if i ever knew how to do that hth
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01:25:34 <oerjan> > 2**(-3/4)
01:25:35 <lambdabot> 0.5946035575013605
01:25:38 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint("".join(["%.4f " % 2**((1-k*2)/4) for k in range(7)])) # A series metric paper sizes
01:25:40 <HackEso> 1.1892 0.8409 0.5946 0.4204 0.2973 0.2102 0.1487
01:26:01 <oerjan> oops off by one
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01:27:10 <b_jonas> there is a trick to it, but you have to consider one ruler disposable before you learn it
01:27:21 <oerjan> okay
01:28:18 <oerjan> > 2**(-5/4)
01:28:20 <lambdabot> 0.42044820762685725
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03:35:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Moose]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89738 * Ais523 * (+440) checking licenses on the images
04:05:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TommyWombo * New user account
04:14:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89739&oldid=89724 * TommyWombo * (+308)
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06:20:04 <zzo38> Some of the good things that had been added in C include the #embed command and also some GNU extensions. Some of the bad things of C include the confusing syntax for types, some of the rules dealing with undefined behaviour, and some things lacking.
06:20:26 <zzo38> (and also some of the C99 and newer features are not so good, but some are good)
06:21:35 <zzo38> Some things I would want to think to add would be parameterized types and an additional kind of macros that are scoped and used in the compiler instead of the preprocessor (which should still exist too).
06:22:33 <zzo38> This new kind of macros could be defined anywhere that it is allowed to declare a global or local variable or a member of a structure or union.
06:31:13 <zzo38> Also might wanting to have a block to define the codes which are executed at compile time, which can inspect the structure of the program and can read any file that you would be allowed to access with #include or #embed, and can inspect the preprocessor state, and can then emit tokens and data.
06:32:36 <zzo38> Also the question: Does any compiler have such optimization option as, timing safe optimization mode, and time limits for optimizations (to disable some optimizations if they are taking too long (although there might be a difficulty to do so))?
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06:50:40 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89740&oldid=89722 * Quintopia * (+5) /* FiM++ */
06:58:49 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89741&oldid=88901 * Quintopia * (+96) resplicate
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10:05:45 <int-e> b_jonas: I did find --cfg eventually... it's kind of hidden in https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/conditional-compilation.html (two occurrences, no specific examples)
11:02:41 <b_jonas> int-e: there's the relatively new "Rustc book" "https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/index.html", so the canonical documentation of the command-line option itself is "https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/command-line-arguments.html"
11:03:03 <b_jonas> but yes, what you link to is the docs for the attribute itself
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18:26:28 <riv> https://twitter.com/shafikyaghmour/status/1459558469472714758 C programming Language?
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20:26:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hcaelbxorolc * New user account
20:29:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89742&oldid=89739 * Hcaelbxorolc * (+160)
20:30:08 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89743&oldid=89605 * Hcaelbxorolc * (-2391)
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21:30:00 <esolangs> [[G85]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89744 * Danielle * (+3684) i hope i remembered to include everything!
21:37:31 <esolangs> [[G85]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89745&oldid=89744 * Danielle * (+202) added categories
21:38:25 <esolangs> [[G85]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89746&oldid=89745 * Danielle * (+1) fixed typo (sorry for multi edit)
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23:39:07 <int-e> Meh... rust disallows "complex generic expressions in const arguments".
23:39:40 <int-e> so that's another habit from C++ I can't transfer :P
2021-11-19
00:22:07 <Melvar> What are complex generic expressions and const arguments?
00:23:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Icosalord * New user account
00:24:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89747&oldid=89742 * Icosalord * (+140) /* Introductions */
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00:45:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89748&oldid=89747 * Icosalord * (+172)
00:54:25 <b_jonas> Melvar: that means an expression in a generic paramter, in generic context, that contains a generic value parameter, so that the typechecker has to be able to prove that some type is always the same as some other type, for which it has to compare the value of a generic value parameter in the two types, where those expressions aren't concrete values but functions of some generic variables as input, so
00:54:31 <b_jonas> that's hard
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00:57:14 <b_jonas> Melvar, like imagine you are defining a type MyArray<Len: isize>, and in a function generic like fn foo<X: isize>, you take a value of type MyArray<X * 2> and assign it to a variable of type MyArray<X + X>. the rust compiler has to make sure that the types match generically to allow the code, not just that they match after instantiating with a specific X, so it has to prove that X+X and X*2 are the same
00:57:20 <b_jonas> number for every X.
00:57:37 <b_jonas> it can't generally do such proofs, so it refuses to do such comparisons except in a few very limited restricted cases
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04:46:57 <Melvar> I see.
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