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00:13:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Policy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141710&oldid=141709 * Ais523 * (+58) /* I don't want some people to abuse their signatures to show that they're getting too much support or opposition. */ {{unsigned}}, indent my comment
00:18:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141711&oldid=140631 * None1 * (+359) /* (idea)Introducing SyntaxHighlight? */
00:24:19 <esolangs> [[User:Yb1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141712&oldid=123648 * Yb1 * (-135) redesigned
00:49:07 <esolangs> [[10 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141713 * PrySigneToFry * (+807) Created page with "''10 1'' is an Esolang designed by PSTF. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command table |- ! CMD !! Mean |- | || + in Brainfuck |- | || <nowiki>-</nowiki> in Brainfuck |- | || <nowiki>></nowiki> in Brainfuck |- | || <nowiki><</nowiki> in Brainfuck |- | ||
00:49:21 <esolangs> [[10 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141714&oldid=141713 * PrySigneToFry * (+10)
00:49:57 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141715&oldid=141341 * PrySigneToFry * (+11)
00:54:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141716&oldid=141691 * PrySigneToFry * (+740) /* If you want, make this scarier. */ new section
00:55:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141717&oldid=141710 * None1 * (+291) /* I don't want some people to abuse their signatures to show that they're getting too much support or opposition. */
00:57:36 <esolangs> [[10 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141718&oldid=141714 * None1 * (+199) /* Example */
01:10:43 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141719&oldid=141664 * None1 * (+63)
01:16:28 <esolangs> [[C40]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141720 * L4.m2 * (+353) Created page with "'''C40''' is a language based on C, but each function is at most 40 bytes. ==Examples== ===Hello World=== int main(){return!puts("Hello World!");} ===a+b=== int f(){int x;scanf("%d",&x);return x;} void g(int x){printf("%d",x);} int main(){g(f()+f());return 0;} ==Backgro
01:17:47 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141721&oldid=141667 * L4.m2 * (+52)
01:23:15 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141722 * PrySigneToFry * (+1354) Created page with "{| class="wikitable" |+ No caption here |- ! Username !! Rate |- | PrySigneToFry || 100() |- | None1 || 85() |- | MihaiEso || 92() |- | ais523 || |- | tommyaweosme || 5() |- | Unname4798 || 60() |- | Ractangle ||
01:23:46 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141723&oldid=139996 * PrySigneToFry * (+97)
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02:13:56 <esolangs> [[Category:Alien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141724&oldid=124676 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+3479)
02:14:07 <esolangs> [[Category:Alien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141725&oldid=141724 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-3479) Blanked the page
02:38:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Alien]]": unapproved category, no clear definition
02:40:03 <esolangs> [[Feed the Chaos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141726&oldid=141344 * Ais523 * (+3) /* Interpreter */ add missing word
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04:17:21 <esolangs> [[Bouncy Counters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141727&oldid=140555 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Semantics */ fix typo
05:01:39 <esolangs> [[Wow! First genetically proven scaleless ball python!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141728 * DifferentDance8 * (+6167) Yes, I am aware that the formatting is weird but I have no idea how to fix this
05:04:19 <esolangs> [[BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141729 * DifferentDance8 * (+19) Redirected page to [[Bbtos]]
05:04:26 <esolangs> [[Delta Relay]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141730 * Ais523 * (+13563) new language!
05:04:57 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141731&oldid=141715 * Ais523 * (+18) /* D */ +[[Delta Relay]]
05:05:35 <esolangs> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141732&oldid=141342 * Ais523 * (+17) +[[Delta Relay]]
05:06:08 <esolangs> [[Flow of Holes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141733&oldid=138921 * Ais523 * (+18) /* See also */ +[[Delta Relay]]
05:06:36 <esolangs> [[Bouncy Counters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141734&oldid=141727 * Ais523 * (+18) /* See also */ +[[Delta Relay]]
05:08:46 <esolangs> [[Wow! First genetically proven scaleless ball python!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141735&oldid=141728 * Ais523 * (+8) fix closing </code> tags
05:14:28 <esolangs> [[User:DifferentDance8/Contributions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141736 * DifferentDance8 * (+41) Created page with "{{Special:Contributions/DifferentDance8}}"
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05:44:12 <esolangs> [[Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141737&oldid=83206 * Ais523 * (+1574) finally complete the Turing-completeness proof, now that [[Delta Relay]] is available as a reversible Waterfall-alike to base the proof on
05:48:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141738&oldid=140745 * Ais523 * (+958) /* Counter-based languages */ new section
05:51:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] reblock * Ais523 * changed block settings for [[User:Tommyaweosme]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): restoring previous partial block settings: repeated attempts to disturb the use of the Sandbox for testing, e.g. by changing section headers or instructions, or warring to keep edits present and only minimal us
05:55:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141739&oldid=141639 * DifferentDance8 * (+629) /* Don't feed the trolls, guys! */ new section
06:07:46 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141740 * PrySigneToFry * (+3406) Created page with "[[Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again6|]] ORK 1. Go ahead and pull out the lump of files that had been completely destroyed <pre> ..."
06:08:41 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141741&oldid=141665 * PrySigneToFry * (+81)
06:09:22 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141742&oldid=141721 * PrySigneToFry * (+66)
06:17:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141743&oldid=141739 * Ais523 * (+2402) /* Editing talkpage comments */ explaining the issues and the new partial block
06:19:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141744&oldid=141743 * Ais523 * (+459) /* Don't feed the trolls, guys! */ not generally a troll
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06:28:30 <esolangs> [[Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141745&oldid=120697 * Ais523 * (+668) explain what a golfing language is
06:39:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Five different entities.png]]"
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07:17:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141747&oldid=57332 * Ais523 * (+441) /* Ideas for TC proof */ finally got it to work
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07:51:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[]] to [[C-like language]]
07:52:59 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141750&oldid=141748 * Ractangle * (-164)
07:55:31 <esolangs> [[B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141751&oldid=141702 * Ractangle * (-3)
08:02:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:001.png]]"
08:02:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 002.png]]"
08:03:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 003.png]]"
08:03:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 004.png]]"
08:03:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 005.png]]"
08:04:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 006.png]]"
08:04:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 007.png]]"
08:05:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 008.png]]"
08:05:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 009.png]]"
08:05:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 010.png]]"
08:07:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hakerh400 * moved [[File:001.png]] to [[File:Grid logic - Example 001.png]]
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08:27:54 <esolangs> [[Thutu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141764&oldid=79008 * Ais523 * (-24) /* See also */ fix broken link; also unpipe it, the unpiped version is clearer that it's just one example rather than a link to an entire article about hello world programs in Thutu
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08:37:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 011.png]]"
08:37:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 012.png]]"
08:38:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 013.png]]"
08:38:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 014.png]]"
08:38:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 015.png]]"
08:38:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 016.png]]"
08:39:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 017.png]]"
08:39:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 018.png]]"
08:39:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 019.png]]"
08:39:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 020.png]]"
09:08:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 021.png]]"
09:08:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 022.png]]"
09:08:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 023.png]]"
09:09:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 024.png]]"
09:09:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 025.png]]"
09:09:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 026.png]]"
09:09:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 027.png]]"
09:09:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 028.png]]"
09:09:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 029.png]]"
09:10:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 030.png]]"
09:10:18 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141785&oldid=141750 * DifferentDance8 * (+36) Okay, so the syntax is "almost the same as" C... so then, what are the differences that are there? (This also automatically implies unimplementation)
09:10:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 031.png]]"
09:10:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 032.png]]"
09:10:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 033.png]]"
09:10:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 034.png]]"
09:10:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 035.png]]"
09:11:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 036.png]]"
09:11:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 037.png]]"
09:11:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 038.png]]"
09:11:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 039.png]]"
09:11:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:Grid logic - Example 040.png]]"
09:16:09 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141796&oldid=141785 * Ractangle * (+41)
09:19:39 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141797&oldid=141796 * Ractangle * (+1) mb it's actually #include and not #define
09:22:02 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141798&oldid=141797 * Ractangle * (+138) /* Syntax */
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09:23:41 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141799&oldid=141798 * Ractangle * (+1)
09:25:48 <esolangs> [[Grid logic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141800 * Hakerh400 * (+6574) +[[Grid logic]]
09:26:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141801&oldid=141731 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Grid logic]]
09:26:34 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141802&oldid=138168 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Grid logic]]
09:27:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141803&oldid=141738 * Keymaker * (+311) Agree.
09:29:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141804&oldid=141716 * PrySigneToFry * (+961) /* */ new section
09:31:44 <esolangs> [[Grid logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141805&oldid=141800 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Example 15 */
09:32:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141806&oldid=141649 * PrySigneToFry * (+124)
09:32:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141807&oldid=141806 * PrySigneToFry * (-124)
09:34:18 <esolangs> [[Grid logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141808&oldid=141805 * Hakerh400 * (+65)
09:35:12 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141809&oldid=141799 * Ractangle * (-13)
09:37:23 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141810&oldid=141809 * Ractangle * (+78) /* Syntax */
09:37:54 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141811&oldid=141810 * Ractangle * (+18) /* Syntax */
09:38:18 <esolangs> [[Grid logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141812&oldid=141808 * Hakerh400 * (+46)
09:39:44 <esolangs> [[Grid logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141813&oldid=141812 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Complexity class */
09:40:15 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141814&oldid=140360 * Ractangle * (+16)
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09:41:39 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141815&oldid=141814 * Ractangle * (-31) Do not just jump to conclusion that this esolang is turning complete
09:41:40 <esolangs> [[Clandestine Endorsement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141816&oldid=110233 * Keymaker * (+1) Assuming in this sentence "define below" should be "defined below".
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09:45:04 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141817&oldid=141811 * DifferentDance8 * (-8) well, that's good enough for me! stub status revoked
09:46:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:*python]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141818 * DifferentDance8 * (+0) Created blank page
09:47:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141819&oldid=141818 * DifferentDance8 * (+366) /* Is it turing complete? */ new section
09:47:46 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141820&oldid=140811 * PrySigneToFry * (+172)
09:48:37 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141821&oldid=141815 * Ractangle * (-8) /* Truth-machine */
09:49:06 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141822&oldid=141820 * PrySigneToFry * (+110) More Esolangs
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09:50:48 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141823&oldid=141329 * Ractangle * (+58) /* (top, height) */
09:51:01 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141824&oldid=141821 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Hello, world! */
09:51:10 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141825&oldid=141824 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
09:52:20 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141826&oldid=141822 * PrySigneToFry * (+23)
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09:56:05 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141827&oldid=141826 * Ractangle * (-3) /* BASIC */
09:56:17 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141828&oldid=140961 * PrySigneToFry * (-4) Optimized 48~50
10:01:35 <esolangs> [[Lezy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141829&oldid=114196 * PrySigneToFry * (+31)
10:02:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141830&oldid=138245 * PrySigneToFry * (+95) /* Suggested Program: A+B Problem */ new section
10:07:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141831&oldid=141804 * PrySigneToFry * (+740) /* ? */ new section
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10:41:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141832&oldid=141819 * Ractangle * (+178)
10:41:46 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141833&oldid=141825 * Ractangle * (+29)
10:43:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141834&oldid=141831 * Ractangle * (+207) /* */
10:49:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141835&oldid=133394 * Ractangle * (+212) /* What did User:Unname4798 do to you? */ new section
10:53:17 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141836&oldid=141409 * Ractangle * (-17)
10:54:14 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141837&oldid=141836 * Ractangle * (+11)
10:55:42 <HackEso> The password of the month is a matter of ongoing investigations
10:58:33 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is twenty-six characters long
10:58:37 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is twenty-six characters long
10:59:50 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141838&oldid=141817 * Ractangle * (+148)
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11:42:54 <wib_jonas> fizzie: besides fungot being down, the web interfaces to HackEso seem to be down as well, as in https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/
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11:47:50 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141839&oldid=141838 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Name */
11:49:42 <wib_jonas> int-e: apparently we're all unsure on whether /hackenv/wisdom/password should have a trailing period punctuation. I left it off by accident in 2024-08, I am guessing you copied that in 2024-09, but deliberately omitted it today.
11:49:58 <wib_jonas> I'm not sure what the correct convention would be.
11:52:45 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141840&oldid=141839 * Ractangle * (+177) /* Name */
11:54:20 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141841&oldid=140982 * Ractangle * (-23) /* Truth machine... I guess? */
11:55:08 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141842&oldid=141841 * Ractangle * (+12)
11:56:51 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141843&oldid=141842 * Ractangle * (+46) /* Implementation */
12:00:30 <int-e> wib_jonas: I usually add it but I felt that when counting characters omitting it would quiet some contrarian voices :P
12:02:29 <int-e> The 2024-09 omission was on accident.
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12:04:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141844&oldid=141650 * Unname4798 * (-1)
12:06:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141845&oldid=141844 * Unname4798 * (+122)
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12:22:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141846&oldid=141835 * Yayimhere * (+146) /* What did User:Unname4798 do to you? */
12:32:29 <fizzie> Oh yes, I noticed hack.esolangs.org being borked, but forgot to look into it. Something odd about the permissions of the fastcgi socket thing.
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12:44:15 <int-e> wib_jonas: "The password of the month ends in a period" :-P
12:46:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141847&oldid=141846 * Ractangle * (+4)
12:51:18 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141848&oldid=141837 * Ractangle * (+19)
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13:24:34 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141849 * MihaiEso * (+3313) Created page with "Let's make [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again]] with Giga Bob-omb of machine translation. 1. Put this <pre> URL ..."
13:25:18 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141850&oldid=141740 * MihaiEso * (+74)
13:25:57 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141851&oldid=141742 * MihaiEso * (+57) /* Horribly translated variants */
13:28:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141852&oldid=141834 * PrySigneToFry * (+658)
13:31:39 <wib_jonas> apparently the letter æ looks practically the same as œ in both Times New Roman and Adobe Times
13:32:12 <wib_jonas> sorry, I mean in their *italic* versions only
13:46:07 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141853 * PrySigneToFry * (+2448) Created page with "[[Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again7|]] 1. Dig that stupid chunk of completely shredded, miscoded files out of the trash <pre> kijetesantakalu pimeja kijetesantakalu tenpo van la..."
13:46:59 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141854&oldid=141849 * PrySigneToFry * (+133)
13:47:26 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141855&oldid=141851 * PrySigneToFry * (+68)
13:57:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated JNTM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141856&oldid=137960 * PrySigneToFry * (+792) /* WHY? */ new section
14:13:56 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141857&oldid=141853 * MihaiEso * (+175)
14:21:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141858&oldid=141190 * PrySigneToFry * (+1009) /* -- - -- - -- --- - */ new section
14:21:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141859&oldid=141858 * PrySigneToFry * (-2)
14:21:37 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141860 * MihaiEso * (+1676) Created page with "[[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Again]], made it worse! 1. Put this garbage, mojibaked, miscoded file in the machine <pre> ..."
14:21:48 -!- wWwwW has joined.
14:24:44 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141861&oldid=141855 * MihaiEso * (+59) /* Horribly translated variants */
14:26:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141862&oldid=141680 * PrySigneToFry * (+741) /* I think my rate in yours is -1 now. */ new section
14:29:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nine-hundred-eleven]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141863 * PrySigneToFry * (+196) Created page with "9119181213 <big><big></big></big>"
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15:00:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Rubik's Cube]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141864 * Yayimhere * (+104) Created page with "cta program plz? ~~~~"
15:01:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Rubik's Cube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141865&oldid=141864 * Yayimhere * (-104) Blanked the page
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15:17:31 <esolangs> [[MEMORYLEEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141866&oldid=139038 * Aadenboy * (+54) lmao
15:34:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Cocosbeans * uploaded "[[File:Rainbo-Logo.png]]"
15:36:09 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141868&oldid=141107 * PrySigneToFry * (+242)
15:37:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:ProjectEuler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141869&oldid=116921 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+140)
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16:02:49 -!- A_Dragon has changed nick to Awoobis.
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16:57:42 <esolangs> [[Bracket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141870&oldid=125866 * Ractangle * (-26)
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17:32:27 <esolangs> [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141871&oldid=119604 * Aadenboy * (+563) /* Implentations */ added
17:51:37 -!- tromp has joined.
18:01:24 <esolangs> [[Rainbo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141872 * Cocosbeans * (+8087) page is wip
18:39:13 <esolangs> [[Bundle Bungle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141873&oldid=140587 * RhubarbJayde * (-3)
18:52:10 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141874&oldid=141840 * Ractangle * (+76) /* Syntax */
18:55:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141875&oldid=118248 * Ractangle * (+199)
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19:05:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Cocosbeans * uploaded "[[File:Rainbo-Logo-2.png]]"
19:06:16 <esolangs> [[Rainbo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141877&oldid=141872 * Cocosbeans * (+10)
19:38:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[!HOR]] to [[IRLGL]]
19:40:15 <esolangs> [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141880&oldid=141871 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) Fix typo
19:42:49 <esolangs> [[IRLGL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141881&oldid=141878 * Ractangle * (-67)
19:42:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[IRLGL]] to [[IRLGLCom]]
19:43:38 <esolangs> [[IRLGLCom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141884&oldid=141882 * Ractangle * (+15)
19:43:54 <esolangs> [[IRLGLCom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141885&oldid=141884 * Ractangle * (+0)
19:44:45 <esolangs> [[IRLGLCom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141886&oldid=141885 * Ractangle * (-3)
19:47:44 <esolangs> [[IRLGLCom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141887&oldid=141886 * Ractangle * (+233)
19:52:31 <esolangs> [[IRLGLCom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141888&oldid=141887 * Ractangle * (+125)
19:53:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:(WHATEVER WE NAME IT)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141889 * Aadenboy * (+322) Created page with "fun to see my year old idea get made ~~~~"
19:54:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Cocosbeans * uploaded "[[File:Rainbo-code.png]]"
19:57:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Cocosbeans * uploaded "[[File:Rainbo-code2.png]]"
19:57:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[IRLGLCom]] to [[()(]]
19:58:27 <esolangs> [[Rainbo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141894&oldid=141877 * Cocosbeans * (+112)
19:59:21 <esolangs> [[()(]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141895&oldid=141892 * Ractangle * (-503)
19:59:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[()(]] to [[Curly Fish]]
20:00:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Cocosbeans * uploaded "[[File:Rainbo-4.png]]"
20:00:50 <esolangs> [[Rainbo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141899&oldid=141894 * Cocosbeans * (-3)
20:01:47 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141900&oldid=141896 * Ractangle * (+71)
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20:09:04 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141901&oldid=141900 * Ractangle * (-1)
20:10:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang Quality Rating System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141902&oldid=106282 * Ractangle * (-1) negative zero isn't a number
20:12:00 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141903&oldid=141833 * Ractangle * (-79) /* Truth-machine */
20:13:27 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141904&oldid=141903 * Ractangle * (+33) /* Syntax */
20:14:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141905&oldid=141852 * Ais523 * (+445) /* */ my level of Simplified Chinese understanding
20:17:59 -!- tromp has joined.
20:18:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141906&oldid=141875 * Ais523 * (+504) /* Question */ explain again, rephrased
20:27:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141907&oldid=141905 * Ractangle * (+191) /* */
20:32:06 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141908&oldid=141901 * Ractangle * (+79)
20:34:05 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141909&oldid=141908 * Ractangle * (+69)
21:05:49 <esolangs> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141910&oldid=141330 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) /* Reading files */ Priority
21:06:25 <esolangs> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141911&oldid=141910 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Reading files */ Precedence
21:06:58 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141912&oldid=141909 * Ractangle * (+225) /* Syntax */
21:07:24 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141913&oldid=141912 * Ractangle * (+12) /* Syntax */
21:09:25 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141914&oldid=141913 * Ractangle * (-192) /* Syntax */
21:10:23 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141915&oldid=141914 * Ractangle * (+36) /* Syntax */
21:19:25 <esolangs> [[Brainstoremax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141916&oldid=132571 * Ractangle * (-31) /* Ascii loop */
21:19:49 <esolangs> [[Brainstoremax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141917&oldid=141916 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Hello world */
21:20:14 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:57 <esolangs> [[Brainstoremax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141918&oldid=141917 * Ractangle * (+55) /* Hello world */
21:58:07 <zzo38> I think that, instead of ASN.1, could be made a variant, such as "ASN.2". Instead of four classes, to have only two classes (universal and context-specific), therefore allowing one more bit for the type number.
21:58:15 <zzo38> Also can remove most of the types, and add some new types, but some existing types can be used as is such as: boolean, integer, object identifier, null, bit string, octet string, sequence, set, IA5 string.
22:01:41 <zzo38> (Some of the other existing types are no good, such as not being Y2K compliant, and other problems.)
22:03:34 <zzo38> What is your opinion of that?
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22:30:37 <ais523> despite being standardised, ASN.1 is rarely used nowadays, people seem to prefer text-based formats; I think the only common use of ASN.1 is in SSL/TLS certificates and the related infrastructure
22:30:52 <ais523> so if an ASN.2 were created, it would be unlikely that anyone would use it
22:31:20 <ais523> there are some libraries that have their own custom binary formats, but they don't seem to care about standardisation or making things ASN.1-compatible
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23:16:26 <zzo38> I don't really like the text-based formats either, and would think that binary formats would be better (especially, if you want to store a mixture of data, or to avoid dealing with escaping, limited character sets, etc)
23:19:01 <zzo38> So, I might use it, and maybe some other people also might do.
23:32:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:37:54 <zzo38> (One thing that I would add is a proper key/value list type; it can be encoded as a set of keys but you must put the value after each key.)
23:39:33 <esolangs> [[Rainbo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141919&oldid=141899 * Cocosbeans * (+309)
23:51:14 <ais523> does anyone here know the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG/OCG? I have been making a serious attempt at a TCness proof, but don't know the rules well enough (and there doesn't seem to be a comprehensive source for all the rules in English, like there is for Magic or Netrunner)
23:52:44 <ais523> trying to find a way to store the program is difficult, but I think it's doable using the order of the Main Deck – the idea is for it to be full of Normal Spells (Quick-Play might also work, not sure) and for the basic logic of the game to involve drawing the spells for turn, activating them, and then putting them onto the bottom of the deck
23:53:49 <ais523> the problem is to force the player to put each cards on the bottom of the deck before the next one is played – the main card that would do that is Recycle but it has pretty much the worst possible timing (Standby phase, which is after your draw for turn and immediately before your Main Phase in which you can play spells)
23:54:21 <b_jonas> huh, there's no comprehensive rules? odd
23:54:23 <ais523> so, you need to design a gamestate in which the player is forced to activate Recycle, because not doing that causes them to immediately lose
23:54:36 <ais523> b_jonas: there may be a Japanese version of them, and I think I found an unofficial English translation once
23:55:06 <b_jonas> and no, I don't know the rules, I haven't played YGO
23:55:50 <ais523> anyway, the basic problem with that is that in order to force the activation of Recycle, the main thing I can look at is checking "are there any cards in the opponent's GY? if so, they lose" but that needs to be checked specifically during the Standby Phase, at a point *after* the point at which Recycle can be activated
23:56:37 <esolangs> [[Rainbo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141920&oldid=141919 * Cocosbeans * (+1985) reference#std changes from present tense to imperative at std/conc, please change
23:57:11 <ais523> I found only one card that does that: Tantrum Toddler, which attaches cards from the opponents' GY to itself when a card or effect activation is negated - the idea is to create an effect that the player is forced to activate during their own Standby Phase, but will always have its activation negated, but the key is that they can choose to activate it only after using their Recycle
23:58:00 <ais523> (fortunately, Tantrum Toddler has an effect that can only be activated when it has 8 cards attached, and that can be rigged to immediately win the game, so the idea is that you start it with 7 cards, then the player who plays the Spells will have to clear their graveyard before allowing it to activate)
23:59:03 <ais523> it's easy enough to force the Spell-playing player to activate an effect that can be negated every standby phase, e.g. Abyss Actor - Comic Relief has to be activated every Standby Phase
23:59:19 <b_jonas> worth a ping to zzo38 at least
23:59:21 <ais523> but, I have had trouble finding a controllable way to force the activation to be negated
00:00:04 <ais523> there is Light and Darkness Dragon which negates monster effect activations automatically, which is great – unfortunately, it also negates spell card activations which would prevent the spells actually being played
00:00:38 <ais523> so I'd either need to stop it negating them somehow, or to reduce its ATK to the point where it can't negate any more (but then it needs to be increased back up for the next turn)
00:01:17 <ais523> I've mostly been working on the second approach, and have reached the edge of my YGO rules knowledge; I know the rules for the interaction of ATK-changing effects are screwy when some of them are permanent, but can't remember what they actually are
00:01:51 <b_jonas> while we're there what did you say about Pokemon TCG the last time? is it definitely not Turing-complete, or is it just designed to make the sort of loops that help TCness much less likely than M:tG?
00:02:28 <ais523> b_jonas: I think we established that at least one voluntary infinite loop (i.e. driven by one of the players taking actions intentionally to sustain the loop) exists, which wasn't obvious
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00:05:09 <b_jonas> I see. sounds like some rulesets for chess, where there's a limit on the number of turns without captures or pawn moves, but if you exceed that limit the game is a draw only if a player requests that draw.
00:06:10 <ais523> the official rules have two limits, nowadays
00:06:11 -!- mtm has joined.
00:06:15 <b_jonas> although that needs both players' cooperations for a loop, and even then almost never works because most chess games have real time limits
00:06:30 <ais523> after 50 turns without captures or pawn moves, either player can request a draw, after 75 it is a draw automatically
00:06:45 <ais523> I am not entirely sure why both halves of this are needed, presumably there's a good reason
00:07:11 <b_jonas> I think some correspondence games only have a per-move time limit, not a full game limit
00:08:24 <b_jonas> ais523: maybe the mandatory part is so that tournament games can't go on forever and delay the tournament? though the real time limits should ensure that.
00:09:09 <b_jonas> I don't think it's to ensure that players don't run out of paper for logging the game
00:09:23 <ais523> the time limit is not a problem in many tournaments, it's quite common to have an increment per move
00:09:48 <b_jonas> maybe it's to make the job of umpires easier if a player requests a draw by repetition
00:11:21 <b_jonas> I presume the 75 move limit rarely makes a difference in real world games if the 50 move limit (by request of either player) is there
00:11:21 <ais523> anyway, I just realised that it would be possible to negate the Light and Darkness Dragon to prevent it negating the spell, so all I need to do is find some repeatable way to negate it during a Main Phase but not the Standby Phase, that shouldn't be *too* hard as negating is a very common effect in YGO
00:11:52 <ais523> but that means I have a few thousand cards to read through until I find the one that works :_D
00:12:35 <ais523> it is amazing how tight this path is, so far I have found three points in the proof where only one card (out of the >10000 that exist) works
00:14:18 <ais523> oh what the hell, Beargram works, I didn't even know it had that effect
00:14:37 <ais523> I find the card I need and it is famous for being a meme card :-D
00:15:25 <b_jonas> so this would be a program with a single big loop
00:16:16 <ais523> so, the construction is that Recycle can be activated and Abyss Actor - Comic Relief must be activated during the Standby Phase, but (if I understand the rules properly) the player can choose the order
00:16:46 <b_jonas> I see "I find the card I need and it is famous" and "Beargram" and I think of M:tG Berserk, is that normal?
00:16:55 <ais523> they have to Recycle the card out of the graveyard so that when Comic Relief activates, and gets the activation negated by Light and Darkness Dragon, Tantrum Toddler has nothing to attach (otherwise Tantrum Toddler gets its eighth material and activates a game-winning effect – although we'd need to prevent *it* being negated by Light and Darkness Dragon somehow)
00:17:04 <ais523> b_jonas: similar names, very different effects though
00:18:22 <ais523> oh no, this is easy, you have Tantrum Toddler get its activation negated by Light and Darkness Dragon, *but* you still pay the cost (to send 4 attached cards to the graveyard), and you just have the cost to detach the cards automatically win the game, so it doesn't matter that the activation doesn't go through
00:19:27 <ais523> then during the turn, you play the Spell Card you drew for turn, and Light and Darkness Dragon can't activate because Beargram prevents effects being activated in response to Spell Card activations
00:20:54 <ais523> one other thing the player could do is not play the card – but the idea is to have six cards in hand that can't be played, so if you don't play it you have to discard something to hand size, and that triggers two copies of Forced Requisition to make the opponent discard two cards, and those can be cards that trigger in the GY to immediately win the game
00:21:48 <ais523> and the other other thing you could do would be to set it face down as though it were a trap (Normal Spells don't do anything when set like traps, but it's a legal action so that you can bluff), but we can have a Denko Sekka on the field that specifically prevents setting spells and traps
00:22:23 <ais523> I think that's a full lockdown of the spell-using player's actions, other than attacking which there are numerous ways to prevent
00:23:47 <ais523> the opponent doesn't really have to do anything, they just exist to control certain cards, so all that's necessary is a way to prevent them losing to deckout, and there are a ton of those
00:24:27 <ais523> anyway, assuming that lockdown loop works, we then need to find a viable programming language made out of Normal Spells
00:24:55 <ais523> and the problem there is that YGO naturally has two counters and no control flow (all the commands run in sequence), which is not enough unless the commands are quite complex
00:25:52 <ais523> (the two players' life totals are the two most easily controllable counters)
00:27:17 <ais523> I guess the Light and Darkness Dragon is continuously shrinking every turn, that might be usable for computation somehow, although there's also a need to top the attack level back up so that it can keep negating
00:28:34 <ais523> ooh! Light and Darkness Dragon is symmetrical, so I can have the spell-using player control it, that makes its ATK much easier to manipulate, although I'd still need to find something that boosts ATK permanently and not just until end of turn
00:28:48 <ais523> or alternatively, resets the ATK drop
00:31:28 <ais523> just to complete the lockdown loop for any YGO player who finds this in the logs: the combo to autowin with cards in graveyard is Transaction Rollback + Compulsory Evacuation Device targeting a monster that was summoned with Relay Soul; this wins regardless of cards in hand, cards in deck, or life totals
00:33:11 <ais523> also, Sales Ban is very useful for preventing activation of any effects that would screw things up, it has a lingering effect that applies to one specific card name and lasts the whole Duel
00:33:48 <ais523> ah wait, no, LaDD has to be controlled by the opponent because otherwise Beargram wouldn't work
00:34:38 <ais523> maybe there's an alternative card that works
00:35:02 <b_jonas> so now you have to find useful conditionals?
00:38:24 <ais523> either that, or a third counter
00:38:35 <ais523> even that needs useful conditionals, but they don't need to be quite so useful
00:40:48 <b_jonas> are there cards that let you read life totals in a way that isn't monotonic such that the player loses more if they have lower life total? like Death's Shadow in M:tG
00:40:58 <ais523> I managed to figure out a way to read monster ATK (you use Mystik Wok to tribute a monster and gain life equal to its ATK, and it gets banished by Dimensional Fissure, then you get it back with Dimension Distortion), although Mystik Wok is a quick-play and I'm not sure whether that messes things up
00:41:15 <ais523> there are a few lifepoint-halving effects
00:41:30 <ais523> and some which hurt you if you have higher lifepoints than the opponent, but heal you if you have lower
00:41:50 <ais523> also one that averages lifepoints with the opponent
00:42:04 <ais523> (unfortunately, there is rounding, which means you can't store information in the fractional part)
00:42:39 <ais523> Supremacy Berry says "If your Life Points were lower than your opponent's when this card was activated, gain 2000 Life Points. If your Life Points were higher than your opponent's, you take 1000 damage.", that's the sort of effect that seems useful for computation
00:44:31 <b_jonas> that sounds like you need a third counter though
00:45:05 <b_jonas> (life total reading effects aren't that common in M:tG either of course)
00:45:18 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141921&oldid=141215 * Cocosbeans * (+1251) added Racket and Rainbo
00:47:47 <ais523> yes, a third counter really seems important for this sort of construction
00:48:41 <ais523> although, in the Netrunner counter I used three but it might have been doable with two, but that's primarily because I had workable control flow with the rezzed/derezzed status of cards in Archives, making it possible to have four different multiply/divide loops (×2, ×3, ÷2, ÷3)
00:49:41 <ais523> so the counters were normally used as one counter to store data, and one counter to store the instruction pointer – but when doing the multiplication/division, in my construction it multiplies/divides onto the third counter *but* it could have instead used the instruction pointer counter as a temporary
00:49:58 <b_jonas> M:tG has a lot of effects that let you use a creature's toughness or power or toughness minus marked damage as a counter, and I kind of expect that YGO would have something similar even if it's not as frequent as in M:tG
00:50:31 <ais523> the problem is, if you're using the instruction pointer as a temporary, you need something else to remember which multiplication/division you're doing
00:50:37 <b_jonas> I said third counter specifically because of the effect that's just based on the difference between your life total and the opponent's
00:51:26 <ais523> it is hard to read power in Magic, and hard to read toughness without marking damage, but toughness minus damage marked has a very clear effect
00:51:43 <ais523> this doesn't work so well in YGO, if you reduce a monster's DEF to 0 it doesn't get destroyed or anything, it just stays there
00:52:25 <ais523> there is one infamous card (infamous because it creates some really incomprehensible judge rulings), called Pole Position, that says that the monster with the highest ATK is unaffected by other cards
00:52:55 <ais523> normally "unaffected" is restricted to activated effects in order to make it easy to understand, but Pole Position doesn't have that, it makes it unaffected by continuous/static effects too
00:53:43 <ais523> so say if a monster has 1900 ATK, and another monster has 2000 ATK, and I equip the 1900 ATK monster with an equip spell that increases ATK by 500
00:54:02 <ais523> this creates a paradox, and the rules for this changed quite recently
00:54:22 <ais523> unfortunately, they are subjective, and specify that the card most responsible for the issue is destroyed
00:54:55 <ais523> I think there is an unofficial rule to hold Pole Position responsible whenever it is involved, but in general it is hard to know which card would be affected
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00:56:06 <ais523> (the MTGO equivalent for YGO seems to work by following the dependency cycle for 16 steps and then destroying whatever card is next in the list, which at least makes it possible to continue the game but often makes a fairly arbitrary-seeming choice; it also doesn't implement Pole Position)
00:57:41 <ais523> anyway, I have resigned myself to the fact that Pole Position is very likely to be involved in the TCness construction, but I don't really want to use it, both because it would prevent testing the construction online, and because it is so hard to understand all the consequences of that card being in play
00:59:29 <b_jonas> some amount of rules complications is to be expected for such a construction, but ideally it shouldn't descend to the "infamous" level
00:59:35 <ais523> it's probably OK if monsters have their ATK changed only via activated effects
01:07:06 <ais523> oh no, I just realised that the card that gains life equal to a monster's ATK can choose its DEF instead, so the two would need to always be equal or the card is unusable
01:09:58 <ais523> there seems to be exactly one permanent ATK-doubler (Cubic Wave), which unfortunately is quite specific but might still be usable
01:15:27 <ais523> hmm, permanently increasing the LaDD's ATK to counteract the permanent decreases seems hard; Kashtira Overlap might be usable?
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01:30:08 <ais523> oh wow, Gingerbread House is perfect for keeping the LaDD active
01:33:44 <ais523> oh, no it isn't, it's optional
01:33:49 <ais523> I hate how many effects in YGO are optional
01:43:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141922&oldid=141807 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+12) /* Tests */
01:43:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141923&oldid=141922 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+3) /* Tests */
01:43:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141924&oldid=141923 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2)
01:44:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141925&oldid=141924 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-7) /* Tests */
01:44:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141926&oldid=141925 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+14) /* Tests */
01:53:52 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141927&oldid=140650 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* + compiled into +++ */
01:54:24 <esolangs> [[+++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141928&oldid=141927 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-9) /* + compiled into +++ */
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02:19:21 <zzo38> I had once written a acorn card in Magic: the Gathering that says this card is not affected by layer 2 to 7 effects. That is what some of the stuff I read above, reminded me of.
03:24:14 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141929&oldid=139384 * Cocosbeans * (+436) /* JavaScript (very short) */
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05:33:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141930&oldid=141907 * PrySigneToFry * (+926) /* */
06:23:32 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141931&oldid=141868 * PrySigneToFry * (+61)
06:25:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141932&oldid=141926 * PrySigneToFry * (+22) Manually remove residue from sandbox pages and make another test
06:26:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated JNTM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141933&oldid=141856 * None1 * (+261)
06:26:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141934&oldid=141932 * PrySigneToFry * (-46) Both b tags and strong tags have the ability to bold text
06:28:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ting Vit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141935&oldid=138706 * PrySigneToFry * (+81)
06:39:09 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Target]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141936 * PrySigneToFry * (+540) Created page with "Striked is completed. # <strike>Make an Esolang</strike> # <strike>Introduce myself on my userpage</strike> # <strike>Make at least 10 Esolangs</strike> # <strike>Implement an Esolang</strike> # <strike>Make at least 50 Esolangs</strike> # <strik
06:39:42 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141937&oldid=141931 * PrySigneToFry * (+41)
06:57:08 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141938&oldid=141937 * Ractangle * (-13)
07:08:07 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141939&oldid=141915 * Ractangle * (+18) /* NOP */
07:14:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141940&oldid=141930 * None1 * (+272) /* ban tommyawsome */
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07:23:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141941&oldid=141940 * Ais523 * (+882) /* ban tommyawsome */ indefinite, but not sitewide
07:40:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141942&oldid=141257 * Ractangle * (+195) /* hdfjogh viosd7 890ucvjdcxcc. */
07:41:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141943&oldid=141942 * Ractangle * (+0) /* hdfjogh viosd7 890ucvjdcxcc. */
07:47:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141944&oldid=136317 * Ractangle * (+45) /* Where to test things out */
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08:07:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[ABPL]] to [["Template:Wayback"]]
08:08:47 <esolangs> [["Template:Wayback"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141947&oldid=141945 * Ractangle * (-273)
08:09:06 <esolangs> [["Template:Wayback"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141948&oldid=141947 * Ractangle * (+8)
08:20:05 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141949&oldid=141431 * Ractangle * (-25) /* Esolangs */
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09:12:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Autoconfirmed users]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141950 * PrySigneToFry * (+96) Created page with "Isn't Auto-confirmed users ust the users that introduced themselves to prove that they're human?"
09:12:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Autoconfirmed users]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141951&oldid=141950 * PrySigneToFry * (+1) Fixed
09:15:11 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Keywords]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141952&oldid=141669 * PrySigneToFry * (+4)
09:22:01 <esolangs> [[IP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141953 * Iddi01 * (+2892) IPlang
09:24:57 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Target]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141954&oldid=141936 * MihaiEso * (+266)
09:33:18 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141955&oldid=141637 * MihaiEso * (+156)
09:39:22 <esolangs> [[F'juhv iK'tlhUng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141956&oldid=127203 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
09:39:57 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso/Targets]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141957 * MihaiEso * (+1098) Created page with "Struck is completed. === Esolangs === * <strike>Make my first esolang</strike> * <strike>Make at least 10 esolangs</strike> * <strike>Make at least 25 esolangs</strike> * Make at least 50 esolangs * Make at least 100 esolangs * Make at least 500 esolangs
09:46:57 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141958&oldid=141704 * PrySigneToFry * (+41)
09:47:21 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141959&oldid=141958 * PrySigneToFry * (-7)
09:50:17 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141960&oldid=141828 * PrySigneToFry * (+53)
09:53:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:MASM/Print A]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141961 * PrySigneToFry * (+282) I found a "Hello, world!" program!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:54:10 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141962&oldid=141955 * MihaiEso * (+908) /* More data */
09:55:27 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141963&oldid=141960 * PrySigneToFry * (+64)
09:58:02 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141964&oldid=141963 * PrySigneToFry * (+147)
09:58:20 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141965&oldid=141964 * PrySigneToFry * (+3)
10:01:06 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141966&oldid=141965 * MihaiEso * (+20) /* 80-89 */
10:02:07 <esolangs> [[TW'sLE!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141967 * Iddi01 * (+1475) tw'sle!!!
10:05:59 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sino.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141968 * PrySigneToFry * (+65) Created page with "* { background-color: red !important; color: yellow !important; }"
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10:09:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141969&oldid=141801 * Iddi01 * (+25) Add two
10:18:44 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141970&oldid=141609 * PrySigneToFry * (+55)
10:23:23 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141971&oldid=141722 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
10:29:38 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141972&oldid=140681 * Iddi01 * (+792) Added information other than redirection
10:37:43 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141973&oldid=141929 * MihaiEso * (+2965) /* */
10:39:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141974&oldid=141969 * Iddi01 * (-16) /* T */ Move this to the joke language list
10:41:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141975 * Ractangle * (+254) Created page with ""The original nature of man is good" -Yandex translate idk what the heck does it mean~~~<br>"
10:42:30 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141976&oldid=141861 * Iddi01 * (+123) /* General languages */
10:46:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141977&oldid=141975 * DifferentDance8 * (+62) /* 85 */ new section
10:46:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141978&oldid=141977 * DifferentDance8 * (+50)
10:46:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141979&oldid=141978 * DifferentDance8 * (+28)
10:49:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141980&oldid=141979 * MihaiEso * (+116)
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10:57:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[C Plus Minus Plus Minus]] to [[C]]
10:57:13 <esolangs> [[C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141983&oldid=141981 * Ractangle * (-27)
11:06:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141984&oldid=141934 * None1 * (+135) /* Tests */ test
11:06:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141985&oldid=141984 * None1 * (-135) test done
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11:19:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141986&oldid=141985 * MihaiEso * (+37)
11:20:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141987&oldid=141986 * MihaiEso * (-9) Whoops...
11:24:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141988&oldid=141987 * None1 * (-28) clean
11:26:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141989&oldid=141980 * None1 * (+266)
11:27:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141990&oldid=141989 * None1 * (+0)
11:35:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141991&oldid=141988 * MihaiEso * (+16)
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12:04:44 <esolangs> [[Abuse filter 15 makes no sense]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141992 * Unname4798 * (+274) Created page with "<!-- This is a joke --> Unname4798 and Tommyaweosme aren't allowed to edit others' user pages and user talk pages. allowed("User:Unname4798/test") = 0 allowed("User:Unname4798") = 1 pageName("User:Unname4798") = pageName("User:Unname4798/test
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12:05:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abuse filter 15 makes no sense]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141993 * Yayimhere * (+105) Created page with "...this is stupid ~~~~"
12:10:36 <esolangs> [[Abuse filter 15 makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141994&oldid=141992 * Unname4798 * (+8)
12:11:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abuse filter 15 makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141995&oldid=141993 * Unname4798 * (+184)
12:11:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abuse filter 15 makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141996&oldid=141995 * Unname4798 * (+14)
12:13:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abuse filter 15 makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141997&oldid=141996 * Yayimhere * (+234)
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13:12:27 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=141998&oldid=140965 * PrySigneToFry * (+124)
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13:36:59 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=141999 * MihaiEso * (+3386) Created page with "'''Poetic''' is a esolang made by Mihai Popa. The programs are made of English text. == How it works == It divides the words in letters, and it counts. * If a word is less than 10 letters long, the value is that single digit * If a word is 10 letters long,
13:37:28 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142000&oldid=141962 * MihaiEso * (+50)
13:38:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142001&oldid=141974 * MihaiEso * (+43) /* P */
13:47:42 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142002&oldid=141999 * MihaiEso * (+0) /* How it works */
13:54:08 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142003&oldid=141998 * Ractangle * (+20)
13:54:25 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142004&oldid=142003 * Ractangle * (+1)
14:07:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142005&oldid=141134 * MihaiEso * (+149) /* */
14:07:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142006&oldid=142005 * MihaiEso * (+4) /* Make this even scrr! */
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14:32:43 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142007&oldid=142002 * None1 * (-57) No because memory is limited
14:33:19 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142008&oldid=142007 * None1 * (-79) /* Computational class */
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15:10:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Dependently Typed Binary Lambda Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142009 * Tromp * (+338) mention alternative implementation of CoC in blc.
15:19:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abuse filter 15 makes no sense]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142010&oldid=141997 * Aadenboy * (+328)
15:23:38 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142011&oldid=142008 * PrySigneToFry * (+76)
15:24:36 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142012&oldid=142011 * PrySigneToFry * (+40)
15:25:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142013&oldid=142006 * PrySigneToFry * (+628)
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15:35:01 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142014&oldid=141703 * PrySigneToFry * (+27)
15:35:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142015&oldid=141991 * PrySigneToFry * (+53)
15:35:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142016&oldid=142015 * PrySigneToFry * (-29) Another test
15:37:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142017&oldid=142016 * PrySigneToFry * (-24) HTML supports s tag and u tag, but didn't support underline tag, but support strike tag
15:41:52 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142018&oldid=141939 * Ractangle * (-4) /* NOP/Infinite loop */
15:43:51 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142019&oldid=142018 * Ractangle * (+41) /* Syntax */
15:44:46 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142020&oldid=142019 * Ractangle * (-8) /* NOP/Infinite loop */
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15:50:18 <esolangs> [[Trampolines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142021&oldid=129167 * Aadenboy * (+110) /* Example Programs */ infinite loops!
15:52:49 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142022&oldid=142012 * MihaiEso * (+195)
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16:12:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:90]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142023&oldid=140352 * Yayimhere * (+25)
16:13:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:90]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142024&oldid=142023 * Yayimhere * (+88)
16:15:34 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142025&oldid=141921 * Aadenboy * (+1356) added trampolines
16:17:14 <esolangs> [[Trampolines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142026&oldid=142021 * Aadenboy * (+1424) /* Example Programs */ added deadfish implementation
16:20:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [["Template:Wayback"]] to [[Xuki]]
16:27:37 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142029&oldid=138487 * Unname4798 * (+2)
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16:29:24 <esolangs> [[Xuki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142030&oldid=142027 * Ractangle * (+315)
16:31:08 <esolangs> [[Xuki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142031&oldid=142030 * Ractangle * (+0)
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17:43:44 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142032&oldid=142020 * Ractangle * (-8) Curly fish moves differently
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18:28:50 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142033 * Emelang * (+1374) made the page
18:29:02 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142034&oldid=142033 * Emelang * (-35)
18:30:32 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142035&oldid=142034 * Emelang * (+4)
18:34:43 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142036&oldid=142032 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Infinite loop */
18:34:59 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142037&oldid=142036 * Ractangle * (-69) /* Syntax */
18:35:13 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142038&oldid=142037 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Syntax */
18:37:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Maia * New user account
18:43:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142039&oldid=141572 * Maia * (+174)
18:48:34 <esolangs> [[User:Emelang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142040&oldid=141198 * Ractangle * (+13)
18:50:54 <esolangs> [[EsoFur]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142041&oldid=108926 * Maia * (+83) added case error
19:34:03 <esolangs> [[UserNo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142042&oldid=106411 * Emelang * (-91) /* Implementations */
19:43:44 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142043&oldid=141959 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2)
19:45:28 <esolangs> [[TW'sLE!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142044&oldid=141967 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Categories
19:48:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Help]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142045&oldid=141944 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Where to test things out */
19:51:01 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142046&oldid=142035 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) Categories
19:51:31 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142047&oldid=142046 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Examples */ Formatting
19:52:21 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142048&oldid=141938 * Ractangle * (+2)
19:54:03 <esolangs> [[Template:Altun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142049 * Ractangle * (+66) Created page with ":This user has other nicknames such as {{{1}}}|, {{{2}}}|, {{{3}}}"
19:54:22 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142050&oldid=142048 * Ractangle * (-6)
19:56:32 <esolangs> [[Template:Altun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142051&oldid=142049 * Ractangle * (-19)
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20:49:30 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142052&oldid=142043 * Ractangle * (+22)
20:59:34 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142053&oldid=142038 * Ractangle * (+283) /* Syntax */
21:00:25 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142054&oldid=142053 * Ractangle * (+17)
21:02:33 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142055&oldid=142054 * Ractangle * (+47) /* Syntax */
21:06:06 <zzo38> I had tried to compile a C program that I had written, that uses OpenSSL, on another computer, and says that OPENSSL_config is not available (resulting in a compiler warning about implicit declaration), and a linker error due to ERR_print_errors_fp not being available (although that did not result in a compiler warning). Do you know what is wrong with it?
21:06:47 <zzo38> (The program compiled when the calls to those functions were commented out, although the result is then that error messages are not handled)
21:21:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: is this about OpenSSL having two incompatible major versions and you're trying to link to the other one?
21:22:18 <b_jonas> it's infamous because they're incompatible in such a stupid way that it can lead to correct programs in the earlier major version to become insecure when you try to adapt them to the newer major version, or so I've heard
21:24:55 <zzo38> I didn't know that, and I also don't know how to fix it. Can #if and/or #ifdef commands be used (and if so, how is it needed to be done)?
21:32:27 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142056 * Tommyaweosme * (+734) Created page with "{{lowercase}}lol waht i cant edit talk pages is an esolang made by [[user:tommyaweosme]] because of the admins of this very wiki. == commands == user:? - defines new variable called ? edit user talk:? to remove n messages - subtracts n from
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21:42:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know about the specifics of OpenSSL, I only heard these as rumors.
21:45:11 <int-e> One of those functions is deprecated. The other is behind a conditional flag that /might/ be disabled, https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/err/err_prn.c#L176-L186
21:45:27 <int-e> Or it may be something entirely different, of course.
21:45:44 <int-e> It's a software problem after all.
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22:05:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Abuse filter 15 makes no sense]]": offtopic
22:13:36 <int-e> ais523: I admire your willingness to come up with narrow blocks like that
22:14:02 <zzo38> I had partially written a ASN.1 BER parser; so far it handles constructed types and can convert object identifiers into decimal format.
22:15:27 <ais523> int-e: thanks – in a way I can get away with it because the wiki is still fairly small, so blocks that need a lot of manual monitoring are still possible
22:15:41 <ais523> although, the wiki is now long past the point where it's reasonable to read every edit
22:15:54 <int-e> ais523: should the accompanying talk page Talk:Abuse_filter_15_makes_no_sense be deleted too?
22:16:04 <ais523> it is a deletion discussion
22:16:30 <ais523> in the very early days of Wikipedia, back when it was small, this is apparently how deletions were handled, and it's how Esolang has been doing it for years
22:16:48 <ais523> there is still an exception in Wikipedia's rules to not delete talk pages if they contain discussion of why the corresponding non-talk page was deleted
22:16:58 <ais523> even though it hasn't been relevant for decades now
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22:19:57 <b_jonas> "long past the point where it's reasonable to read every edit" => I was considering to suggest to take a shortcut and time out everyone who edited https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bbtos for a few months, but you probably wouldn't do that
22:20:23 <ais523> I think peopel are editing
22:20:37 <ais523> * people are editing that for the same reason they add Deadfish implementations
22:21:19 <ais523> the only pages I've ever had to split up due to getting large enough to stress technical limitations are a) the hello world page (makes sense), b) the deadfish implementations, and c) my talk page
22:21:52 <ais523> and the last of those really shouldn't have happened, although in retrospect it may have been inevitable (something similar happened to Jimbo Wales' talk page on Wikipedia)
22:23:04 <b_jonas> your user talk page is big because there isn't an obvious "Administrator's noticeboard" page so we're using it in its stead
22:23:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:90]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142057&oldid=142024 * Ais523 * (+326) it's wrong
22:24:12 <ais523> b_jonas: right – and that's probably because we've never needed an admin noticeboard
22:24:42 <ais523> (and with only one frequently active admin, I guess it makes sense to use the page that pings them?)
22:31:27 <b_jonas> you'd think part of the reason why your user talk page is so big is that you create interesting esolangs and the main reference to them is on the wiki and users message you because of that, but it turns out that's very little of the user talk page
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22:38:57 <zzo38> In ASN.1 the low bit of a byte is called "bit1", but if ASN.2 is made up then "bit0" would be better for the low bit, I think.
22:49:53 <esolangs> [[Translated Poetic Mihai]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142058 * MihaiEso * (+3174) Created page with "'''Translated Poetic Mihai''' is a esolang made by Mihai Popa. It's [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)|Poetic]] but horribly translated with crappy languages. 1. Take this example <pre> Add experience and goodness. You love this content The color is very good, For
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22:51:00 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142059&oldid=141976 * MihaiEso * (+94) /* Horribly translated variants */
22:53:44 <esolangs> [[Translated Poetic Mihai]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142060&oldid=142058 * MihaiEso * (+28)
22:53:56 <esolangs> [[Translated SRL++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142061&oldid=140720 * MihaiEso * (+115)
22:54:58 <esolangs> [[Translated CreativeASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142062&oldid=139157 * MihaiEso * (+9)
22:56:33 <esolangs> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142063&oldid=141146 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+24) /* G# */
23:00:07 <esolangs> [[5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142064&oldid=141482 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+25)
23:23:59 <ais523> what's the correct way to delete one letter in vi? I tried dl but it didn't work
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23:24:36 <zzo38> You can push x or delete to delete a single character
23:25:11 <ais523> dl *does* work in vim, which I'm more used to
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23:34:21 <esolangs> [[Esofish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142065&oldid=141102 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+34)
23:37:30 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142066&oldid=137985 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+36) /* Fibonacci sequence */
23:50:04 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142067&oldid=142055 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+106) Categories
23:51:45 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142068&oldid=142056 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) Categories
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01:51:36 <b_jonas> ais523: x to delete after the cursor or X to delete before the cursor. I thought dl and dh respectively would be equivalent, but perhaps I don't understand how the original vi works.
01:52:30 <b_jonas> also these usually can't delete newline characters, and there's the special commands J and gJ for that
01:57:43 <b_jonas> unrelated. the webcomic page https://www.sandraandwoo.com/scarlet/comic/a-sky-full-of-stars-027/ has the first appearance of a black-haired boy. as soon as this page was published, that boy was added to the public characters list https://www.sandraandwoo.com/scarlet/characters/ and is listed as the boyfriend of the 9 year old main character. I don't think I've ever seen any webcomic give an early
01:57:49 <b_jonas> spoiler about a character who just showed up this way.
02:18:43 <esolangs> [[Ropy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142069&oldid=46036 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Externam resources */ Fix typo
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03:17:58 <esolangs> [[W110]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142070&oldid=131240 * Arctenik * (+218) Note on Turing-completeness + Wikipedia link
03:22:52 <esolangs> [[Deadfish with gotos and input]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142071&oldid=140552 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+24)
03:28:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142072&oldid=140538 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+103)
03:38:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142073&oldid=142072 * None1 * (+255) /* Written in */
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03:58:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Autoconfirmed users]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142074&oldid=141951 * None1 * (+239)
03:59:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142075&oldid=141941 * None1 * (+279) /* ? */
04:21:49 <esolangs> [[Kmid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142076 * Arctenik * (+8042) Create article
04:23:11 <esolangs> [[Kwert]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142077&oldid=141362 * Arctenik * (+15719) Add Turing-completeness construction
04:30:39 <esolangs> [[User:Arctenik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142078&oldid=107529 * Arctenik * (+103) Kmid + some reformatting
04:44:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142079&oldid=142013 * None1 * (+250) /* Make it WORSE! */
04:46:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142080&oldid=142079 * None1 * (+502) /* Help contributing/translating/administrating Funcode? */ new section
04:47:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142081&oldid=142080 * None1 * (+34) /* Help contributing/translating/administrating Funcode? */
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05:33:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142082&oldid=142081 * PrySigneToFry * (+645)
05:47:44 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142083&oldid=140842 * PrySigneToFry * (+37)
05:55:12 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Target]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142084&oldid=141954 * PrySigneToFry * (+100)
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06:01:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142085&oldid=141744 * PrySigneToFry * (+675)
06:02:45 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142086&oldid=141971 * PrySigneToFry * (+4)
06:07:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142087&oldid=141464 * PrySigneToFry * (+719) /* Funcode Wiki */ new section
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06:14:22 <zzo38> I think that the flexible arrays in C99 is not as good as the zero-length arrays in GNU, because zero-length arrays are more logical and have more uses; they are not only used for adding extra data on the end of a structure (although that is the most common use), but can also be used for other things, e.g. if a name needs to be defined even though it is not used, or associating numbers/types (using sizeof and typeof)
06:15:15 <esolangs> [[Ting Vit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142088&oldid=124926 * PrySigneToFry * (+56)
06:17:33 <zzo38> The documentation of GCC says "As a quirk of the original implementation of zero-length arrays, sizeof evaluates to zero" but that shouldn't just be a quirk of the implementation; it is logically what it should do, since if the number of elements is zero then the size of the entire array should be zero (although the size of the element of the array might be nonzero).
06:18:11 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142089&oldid=141966 * PrySigneToFry * (+165)
06:25:51 <zzo38> Flexible arrays can be useful for static initialization, and perhaps if you want the compiler to complain if additional members are added (although GCC also allows it in the middle, which doesn't make much sense), but other than that I think zero-length arrays are better in many ways
06:35:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: C also doesn't have empty structs, and C++ "empty" structs have a positive sizeof (usually 1). this is unfortunate, and C++ added special rules for inheritence and later an attribute so that those empty structures can in some context behave like they're zero-sized. given that situation, it's reasonable that C doesn't allow zero-length arrays either. and even if you somehow added zero-sized arrays
06:35:13 <b_jonas> or empty structs to standard C, you'd probably need some kind of special attribute to mark an array as potentially zero-sized because of backwards compatibility. that said, C does support structs ending in a trailing length 1 array where you allocate the struct as variable-sized, and in practice you can treat these as a trailing flexible array that can even be zero-sized in most respects.
06:36:41 <b_jonas> the lack of zero-sized data is problematic, and in particular you have to be a bit careful with it if you try to export a C interface from rust, because rust does fully support zero-sized structs and arrays and will put them in the exported interface too.
06:39:51 <b_jonas> this especially comes up if you want to pass a potentially zero-sized struct as a function argument: both libev and perl's XS interface uses macro magic for it where if the structure would be zero-sized then no argument is passed instead, the macro expands to either nothing or the (nonzero sized argument) followed by a comma
06:42:52 <zzo38> Will the exported interfaces from Rust be usable with GCC with zero-length arrays?
06:44:06 <zzo38> I just use the GNU extensions in GCC, and many of them will work with Clang as well so if someone else wants to use Clang they can probably still compile these programs
06:44:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think so, because the problem is mostly zero-length structs rather than zero-length arrays, especially if passed by value or embedded in another struct, and you can't pass an array by value to a function in C. or... does the gcc extension let you make a true sizeof 0 struct too?
06:45:30 <b_jonas> arrays with constant zero size don't come up too often, and variable-sized arrays are addressed through pointers rather than passed by value and that does not cause problems
06:49:09 <zzo38> GCC allows you to make a empty structure, but only in C (not in C++, which adds a member even if you do not specify any, according to the documentation)
06:51:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: empty structure sure, but does it have sizeof 0 and consume no space when it's in a larger struct at a non-trailing position?
06:52:34 <zzo38> Yes, its size is zero (in C only, not in C++) and consumes no space
06:54:09 <zzo38> (although I don't know if alignment is affected at all?)
06:54:14 <b_jonas> nice. in that case that might work to use a rust interface, though I'm not sure if the two agree on how to pass such a struct as function argument by value
06:54:56 <zzo38> Some of my programs do pass struct by value, although they are usually small structures not bigger than 64 bits
06:58:53 <b_jonas> (if you rely on such a gcc empty struct, especially in a header, you should probably make sure that it #errors out with an explanation if someone tries to compile it in C++)
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08:43:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Autoconfirmed users]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142090&oldid=142074 * Ractangle * (+50)
09:07:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142091&oldid=142087 * Ractangle * (+184) /* Funcode Wiki */
09:15:53 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142092&oldid=142004 * Ractangle * (-5)
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10:01:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142093&oldid=142085 * Ais523 * (-675) Reverted edit by [[Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|PrySigneToFry]] ([[User talk:PrySigneToFry|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
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11:39:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142094&oldid=142091 * PrySigneToFry * (+666) /* Funcode Wiki */
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11:54:12 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142095&oldid=141616 * DGCK81LNN * (+0) /* Practices and idioms */
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12:01:54 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142096&oldid=142068 * Unname4798 * (+204) add cat (numbers instead of ASCII characters)
12:02:25 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142097&oldid=142096 * Unname4798 * (+5)
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12:29:03 <esolangs> [[Poetic LOLWICNETP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142098 * Unname4798 * (+688) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:Unname4798|i=[[lol waht i cant edit talk pages]]|f=a member of the [[Poetic (family)|Poetic]] family}} == Commands == <pre> 1 letter: (x) Set a variable x to 0 2 letters: (x, y) Increase x variable's value by y 3 letters: (x, y) Decrease x vari
12:29:22 <esolangs> [[Poetic LOLWICNETP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142099&oldid=142098 * Unname4798 * (+7)
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12:29:57 <wWwwW> is it possible to create a TC esolang with I/O thats also I/O complete but still has no quine
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12:38:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142104&oldid=141845 * Yayimhere * (+114) /* Move warring */
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12:41:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142107&oldid=142106 * Unname4798 * (-273) incorrect
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13:53:08 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142115&oldid=142097 * Ractangle * (-19) /* truth machine */
13:55:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142116&oldid=142113 * Ractangle * (+263) /* What did I do to User:Yayimhere? */
14:10:28 <ais523> <wWwwW> is it possible to create a TC esolang with I/O thats also I/O complete but still has no quine ← my initial thought was "I don't think so, but I'm not sure", but it is possible at least for batch I/O – you make the print routines refuse to output text that starts with the first character of the program unless there's been either input or output already
14:11:06 <ais523> in other words, you basically partially hardcode the "output for no input" in the program source, but the output when there's some input can be calculated arbitrarily
14:11:39 <ais523> extending this to interactive I/O runs into philosophical questions about what sort of input a quine is allowed to take
14:14:03 <ais523> ah no, this is simple: you disallow printing output that starts with the first character of the program until after input has actively been read, and found to be nonempty
14:15:31 <ais523> still I/O-complete because the output printed before the first nonempty input is a constant, and executable on a Turing machine
14:16:05 <ais523> however, in some cases *writing* the program may be uncomputable, as you may need to solve the halting problem to work out what the first byte of output is
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14:45:28 <esolangs> [[Poetic LOLWICNETP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142118&oldid=142114 * Unname4798 * (+25)
14:47:34 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142119&oldid=142115 * Unname4798 * (+40) Don't hate yourself, tommyaweosme!
14:47:40 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142120&oldid=142047 * Emelang * (+76) /* Cat Program */
14:48:57 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142121&oldid=142120 * Emelang * (+0) changed the looping cat program so that it will worm if it will be run in an interpreter
14:49:29 <esolangs> [[Poetic LOLWICNETP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142122&oldid=142118 * Unname4798 * (-70)
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15:07:52 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142124&oldid=142123 * Emelang * (+2) /* Hello, World! */
15:10:40 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142125&oldid=142124 * Emelang * (+4) /* Cat Program */
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15:15:21 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142126&oldid=142125 * Emelang * (+103) /* Cat Program */
15:17:23 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142127&oldid=142126 * Emelang * (+40) /* Instructions */
15:17:54 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142128&oldid=142127 * Emelang * (+0) sometimes i dont like redirects
15:18:37 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142129&oldid=142128 * Emelang * (+2) /* Instructions */
15:21:08 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142130&oldid=142129 * Emelang * (+131) added d
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15:33:08 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142131&oldid=142130 * Emelang * (+220) added calculator
15:33:50 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142132&oldid=142131 * Emelang * (-9) fixed calculator
15:35:09 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142133&oldid=142132 * Emelang * (+2) fixed calculator once more
15:36:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142134&oldid=142075 * Yayimhere * (+107) /* ban tommyawsome */
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15:39:25 <wWwwW> but wut if instead of input w condiser: is program in memory
15:44:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142135&oldid=142117 * Ractangle * (+6) /* What did I do to User:Yayimhere? */
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15:46:58 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142136&oldid=142133 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Hello, World! */
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15:48:36 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142138 * Shriansh * (+4640) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{featured language}} |name=Beforge |- |author=[[user:Shriansh]] |year=[[:Category:2024|2024]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based & Stack based|Cell-based & Stack Based]] |dimensions=two-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] ==Warni
15:48:55 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142139&oldid=142119 * Ractangle * (-40) "i" literally means "input"
15:55:03 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142140&oldid=142138 * Ractangle * (-22)
16:01:46 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142141&oldid=142140 * Ractangle * (-152)
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16:21:40 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142149&oldid=142148 * Shriansh * (+4) /* Examples */
16:22:13 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142150&oldid=142149 * Shriansh * (+51) /* Examples */
16:22:51 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142151&oldid=142150 * Shriansh * (-45) /* Examples */
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16:31:39 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142152&oldid=142151 * Shriansh * (+20)
16:31:44 <esolangs> [[User:Shriansh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142153 * Shriansh * (+128) Created page with "==IDK WHO I AM BUT I AM== heheheha ==Esolangs== Beforge (this is the worst thing u will see) = https://esolangs.org/wiki/Beforge"
16:47:26 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142154&oldid=140235 * Shriansh * (+108) /* Commands */
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16:53:10 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142156&oldid=142155 * Shriansh * (+4) /* Examples */
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17:10:19 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142157&oldid=142156 * Shriansh * (+31)
17:10:40 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142158&oldid=142157 * Shriansh * (+17)
17:17:02 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142159&oldid=142158 * Ractangle * (-31) Why did you have to add /* Contributors */ section?
17:17:25 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142160&oldid=142159 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Introduction */
17:19:51 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142161&oldid=142160 * Ractangle * (-24) /* Examples */
17:20:06 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142162&oldid=142161 * Ractangle * (-15) /* Introduction */
17:20:20 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142163&oldid=142162 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Examples */
17:21:23 <esolangs> [[Category:Two-dimensional languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142164&oldid=7847 * Ractangle * (+23)
17:22:36 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142165&oldid=142163 * Ractangle * (-5)
17:23:15 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142166&oldid=142165 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Examples */
17:24:55 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142167&oldid=142166 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Examples */
17:27:24 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142168&oldid=142167 * Shriansh * (+25) /* Execute some random commands */
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17:37:05 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142169&oldid=142168 * Aadenboy * (+0) lowercase file extenson
17:42:14 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142170&oldid=142169 * Shriansh * (+219)
17:45:03 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142171&oldid=142170 * Shriansh * (+57) /* Examples */
17:46:16 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142172&oldid=142171 * Shriansh * (+10)
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17:59:26 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142173&oldid=142067 * Ractangle * (+95) /* Movement */
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18:11:29 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142174&oldid=142173 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Syntax */
18:12:53 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142175&oldid=142174 * Ractangle * (+43) /* Examples */
18:13:56 <esolangs> [[Curly Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142176&oldid=142175 * Ractangle * (+97) /* Syntax */
18:17:52 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142177&oldid=142172 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Hello World User:none1 */
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18:37:51 <esolangs> [[LFSR CPU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142178 * SubleqIsTheBestLeq * (+2277) Initial page
18:40:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142179&oldid=142001 * SubleqIsTheBestLeq * (+15) /* L */ Added LFSR CPU
18:43:25 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142180&oldid=139388 * Ractangle * (+40) /* Interpreter */
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19:48:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Autoconfirmed users]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142181&oldid=142090 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Fix time
19:51:54 <esolangs> [[LFSR CPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142182&oldid=142178 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+127) Formatting, categories
19:57:31 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142183&oldid=142177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) Categories, misc.
19:59:30 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142184&oldid=142052 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) Formatting
20:01:59 <esolangs> [[Poetic LOLWICNETP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142185&oldid=142122 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+101) Categories
20:02:42 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142186&oldid=142139 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) See also
20:48:17 <esolangs> [[C-like language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142187&oldid=141874 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Name */
20:50:04 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142188&oldid=139811 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Syntax */
20:53:05 <esolangs> [[Dish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142189&oldid=142188 * Ractangle * (-206) /* Syntax */
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00:28:25 <esolangs> [[Cyclic tag system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142190&oldid=113987 * Xylochoron * (+13)
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01:54:47 <esolangs> [[Square-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142191 * PrySigneToFry * (+710) Created page with "Square-complete is a concept designed by PSTF. == What Esolang can call as "Square-complete"? == # This Esolang must can output "Hello, world!". # This Esolang must can input at least 1 character. # This Esolang must can count from 0 to 10 by looping. # Th
01:55:18 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142192&oldid=142050 * PrySigneToFry * (+22)
02:28:02 <esolangs> [[MATH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142193 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+843) Created page with "'''MATH''' is a language by ~~~~ where you make your own operations. == Operations == Operations are defined like this: ''operation_name'' ::= ''code'' # With on the left and on the right e.g. ::= 1 == Inclu
02:30:06 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142194&oldid=141255 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+10)
02:50:42 <esolangs> [[MATH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142195&oldid=142193 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) Categories
03:07:05 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142196&oldid=142086 * PrySigneToFry * (+142)
03:09:09 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142197&oldid=142196 * PrySigneToFry * (-77)
03:11:28 <esolangs> [[PIO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142198&oldid=141622 * PrySigneToFry * (+60)
03:19:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142199&oldid=142093 * PrySigneToFry * (-4)
03:21:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142200&oldid=142199 * PrySigneToFry * (+731) /* If you want, join here! */ new section
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03:44:11 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142201&oldid=132890 * PrySigneToFry * (+1691)
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03:47:39 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142202&oldid=142201 * PrySigneToFry * (+564)
03:48:51 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142203&oldid=142202 * PrySigneToFry * (+61)
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05:58:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142204&oldid=142082 * DifferentDance8 * (+230) /* I'm now on Funcode (although I can't edit for some reason :/) */ new section
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06:43:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142205&oldid=142204 * None1 * (+271) /* I'm now on Funcode (although I can't edit for some reason :/) */
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06:51:42 <esolangs> [[Brainflick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142206 * DifferentDance8 * (+916) i just rushed this language out the door lol
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07:09:07 <esolangs> [[Square-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142207&oldid=142191 * Ractangle * (-15)
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07:58:12 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142208 * Froginstarch * (+354) Created page with "Oops! All functions is a dumb esoleng/challenge that [[User: Froginstarch]] thought about when he was incredibly bored The premise of this eso land is that you can only use functions (user defined) for every thing, not tradional control flow is allowed
07:59:31 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142209&oldid=142208 * Froginstarch * (+55)
08:03:13 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142210&oldid=142209 * Froginstarch * (+0) /* Syntax */
08:05:24 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142211&oldid=142210 * Froginstarch * (+76)
08:07:31 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142212&oldid=142211 * Froginstarch * (+8)
08:09:50 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142213&oldid=142212 * Froginstarch * (+10) /* Syntax */
08:10:19 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142214&oldid=142213 * Froginstarch * (+0)
08:12:42 <esolangs> [[Square-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142215&oldid=142207 * None1 * (+66) /* What Esolang can be called as "Square-complete"? */ grammar
08:12:58 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142216&oldid=142214 * Froginstarch * (-4) /* Syntax */
08:13:23 <esolangs> [[Square-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142217&oldid=142215 * None1 * (+15) /* Isn't "Square-complete" is Turing-complete? */
08:13:30 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142218&oldid=142216 * Froginstarch * (+9) /* Syntax */
08:13:40 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142219&oldid=142218 * Froginstarch * (+0) /* Syntax */
08:14:10 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142220&oldid=142219 * Froginstarch * (+18) /* Syntax */
08:14:23 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142221&oldid=142220 * Froginstarch * (+0)
08:17:20 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142222&oldid=142221 * Froginstarch * (-18)
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08:35:01 <shachaf> int-e: Another game from the k-step steve person: https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/bee-magic
08:35:39 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142223&oldid=141620 * Iddi01 * (+305) Added a few; EVERYBODY IF YOU SEE THIS PLEASE ADD MORE LANGUAGES TO THE LIST AND SPREAD THE WORD ABOUT THIS! Anyway, currently the only languages here are ///, ><>, Aheui, ALPACA, Befunge, BLC, BCT, Black, bf, Chicken, Emmental, FALSE, Flipjump, Funge-98, CGoL,
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09:35:33 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142224&oldid=141904 * Ractangle * (+28) /* Examples */
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09:38:06 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142225&oldid=142224 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Infinite loop */
10:18:16 <esolangs> [[Emojifunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142226&oldid=140886 * Ractangle * (-17)
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10:24:58 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142227&oldid=142225 * Ractangle * (+158)
10:25:14 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142228&oldid=142227 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Computational class */
10:26:00 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142229&oldid=142228 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Computational class */
10:31:24 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142230&oldid=142229 * Ractangle * (+139) /* Computational class */
10:31:45 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142231&oldid=142230 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Computational class */
10:39:37 <esolangs> [[*python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142232&oldid=142231 * Ractangle * (-330) /* Computational class */
10:40:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[SPIKE]] to [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]]
10:48:13 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142235&oldid=142233 * Ractangle * (-1890)
10:52:14 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142236&oldid=142235 * Ractangle * (+243) /* The notation */
10:53:45 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142237&oldid=142059 * DifferentDance8 * (+153)
10:53:49 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142238&oldid=142236 * Ractangle * (+89)
10:54:15 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142239&oldid=139039 * Ractangle * (+35) /* See also */
10:55:35 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142240&oldid=141949 * Ractangle * (-93) /* Esolangs */
10:56:03 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142241&oldid=142240 * Ractangle * (+1)
10:56:14 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142242&oldid=142241 * Ractangle * (+0)
11:50:28 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142243&oldid=142223 * None1 * (+15) /* N */
11:50:30 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142244&oldid=142238 * Ractangle * (+33)
11:50:45 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142245&oldid=142243 * None1 * (+16) /* N */
11:51:04 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142246&oldid=142244 * Ractangle * (+1)
11:52:16 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142247&oldid=142246 * Ractangle * (+19) /* The notation */
11:53:37 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142248&oldid=142247 * Ractangle * (+70) /* The notation */
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12:18:14 <esolangs> [[!MORE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142249 * Yourusername * (+79) Created page with "go in discussion to add commands, this is a tape esolang [[Category:Languages]]"
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12:33:35 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142250&oldid=142237 * PrySigneToFry * (+179)
12:34:16 <esolangs> [[Bbtos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142251&oldid=141523 * PrySigneToFry * (+7)
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12:57:18 <esolangs> [[Bbtos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142252&oldid=142251 * Ractangle * (-129)
12:58:13 <esolangs> [[Bbtos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142253&oldid=142252 * Ractangle * (+7)
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13:57:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142254&oldid=141859 * PrySigneToFry * (+720) /* Would you like to join Funcode? */ new section
13:59:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142255&oldid=142135 * PrySigneToFry * (+21)
14:03:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142256&oldid=142017 * PrySigneToFry * (+877) Pre-formatted text can't just support monospaced fonts!
14:04:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142257&oldid=142256 * PrySigneToFry * (-877)
14:08:43 <esolangs> [[Square-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142258&oldid=142217 * PrySigneToFry * (+77)
14:14:21 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/ constant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142259 * PrySigneToFry * (+357) Created page with " constant is the decimal number like this: <pre> 0.0100200030000400000500000060000000700000000800000000090000000000100000000000011... </pre> == What did it work? == <pre> print "0." i = 1 loop for r in range(0, i): print "0" en
14:14:49 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142260&oldid=142192 * PrySigneToFry * (+50)
14:24:11 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/ function]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142261 * PrySigneToFry * (+342) Created page with " function is a function that defined as: pstf(x)=sin(1+1)sin(2+1)...sin(x+1) == Value List == {| class="wikitable" |+ Value List |- ! x !! pstf(x) |- | 0 || 1 |- | 1 || 3.7 |- | 2 || 13.8 |- | 3 || 9 |- | 5 || 9.4 |- | 10 || 0.0011961302136
14:27:20 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142262&oldid=142260 * PrySigneToFry * (+50)
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14:32:39 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142263&oldid=142262 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
14:38:53 <esolangs> [[PrySigneToFry-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142264 * PrySigneToFry * (+859) Created page with "PrySigneToFry-complete is a concept proposed by PSTF. == What Esolang can be PrySigneToFry-complete? == # This Esolang must be able to output "" or "Hello, world!". # This Esolang must be able to output [[User:PrySigneToFry/ constant]] by using loop
14:38:59 <esolangs> [[MATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142265&oldid=142195 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-2) /* Truth-machine */
14:39:30 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142266&oldid=142263 * PrySigneToFry * (+29)
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14:44:34 <esolangs> [[MATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142267&oldid=142265 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-185)
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14:50:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Plushie-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142268 * PrySigneToFry * (+721) /* BubbleLang is Plushie-complete */ new section
14:58:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:PrySigneToFry-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142269 * PrySigneToFry * (+671) /* A sample program in BubbleLang */ new section
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15:11:47 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Operators]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142270 * PrySigneToFry * (+1501) Created page with "Main page: [[BubbleLang/Operators]] == Monocular operators == {| class="wikitable" |+ Monocular operators |- ! Operator !! Meaning |- | !x || If x will return True then return False. |- | ~x || Get (-x)-1. |} == Binocular operators == {| class="wiki
15:12:28 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142271&oldid=140975 * PrySigneToFry * (+26)
15:13:17 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142272&oldid=142271 * PrySigneToFry * (-4)
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15:19:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Plushie-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142273&oldid=142268 * PrySigneToFry * (+152)
15:21:57 <esolangs> [[Anti-Plushie language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142274&oldid=115586 * PrySigneToFry * (+84)
15:25:25 <esolangs> [[Stub]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142275 * Aadenboy * (+4394) This article is not detailed enough and needs to be expanded. Please help us by adding some more information.
15:34:27 <esolangs> [[Anti-myself language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142276 * PrySigneToFry * (+953) Created page with "Anti-myself language is an Esolang that designed by PSTF to against his "rule" for an Esolang. == Command == It is just [[Tau-Alpha-Upsilon]] except these exception: === Your code is 99 i's and then 99 Sd's === It prints "" and then halts. === Your c
15:39:55 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142277&oldid=142250 * PrySigneToFry * (+106)
15:42:05 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142278&oldid=142277 * Aadenboy * (+215) added stub language
15:42:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142279&oldid=141717 * PrySigneToFry * (+831) /* I hate the Fifth Rule in this "fscking" Policy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! */ new section
15:50:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142280&oldid=142205 * PrySigneToFry * (-739)
15:52:42 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142281&oldid=140137 * PrySigneToFry * (+323)
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15:59:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Policy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142282&oldid=142279 * Aadenboy * (+431) /* I hate the Fifth Rule in this "fscking" Policy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! */
16:00:30 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142283&oldid=142184 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+37) /* Implementations */
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16:27:11 <esolangs> [[Stub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142284&oldid=142275 * Ractangle * (+181) why there need stub?
16:27:49 <esolangs> [[Square-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142285&oldid=142258 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Isn't "Square-complete" is Turing-complete? */
16:30:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * uploaded "[[File:2dot - Hi.png]]"
16:30:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142287&oldid=141261 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+25)
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16:50:05 <esolangs> [[Ticker-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142288 * Ractangle * (+282) Created page with "'''Ticker-machine''' is a program form created by [[User:Ractangle]] where it works like this: *finds any interger and sets it as a amount of incrementation/decrementation *Adds the amount of program encounters "+" *Subtracts the amount of program encounters "-"
16:50:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142289&oldid=142282 * Ais523 * (+392) /* I hate the Fifth Rule in this "fscking" Policy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! */ not all esolangs are designed here
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16:54:30 <int-e> that PrySigneToFry signature is obnoxious
16:55:01 <int-e> (And I'm sure it would be far worse if I could read it.)
17:02:37 <korvo> I have partial sympathy; my English WP signature used to be medium-sized (on the scale tiny/small/medium/large/huge) and I always thought admins were jerks for complaining about it.
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17:03:51 <korvo> But also, my old signature was packed with links to each of the wikiprojects I worked on, and it was meant to be a quick way to understand my position and interests. And eventually I dropped it due to peer pressure.
17:04:04 <korvo> I dunno. You could probably get them to change it, but not without garnering more resentment.
17:04:36 <int-e> I dunno... I mean if I cared I'd go to the user page that has ample of space?
17:05:21 <esolangs> [[C-4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142290&oldid=139700 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+17) /* Example Programs */
17:05:50 <int-e> it's really the fact that the signature is almost always split into several lines and longer than the text beiong signed
17:05:55 <esolangs> [[C-4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142291&oldid=142290 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+5) /* Quine */
17:06:06 <int-e> oh and I guess I dislike colors
17:06:26 <esolangs> [[C-4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142292&oldid=142291 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+7) /* Quine */
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17:23:04 <esolangs> [[Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142293&oldid=142284 * Aadenboy * (+54) distinction
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17:27:42 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142294&oldid=142183 * Shriansh * (+996)
17:27:58 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142295&oldid=142294 * Shriansh * (-3)
17:29:25 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142296&oldid=142295 * Shriansh * (+65)
17:30:02 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142297&oldid=142296 * Shriansh * (+2)
17:34:02 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142298&oldid=142297 * Shriansh * (+110)
17:35:01 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142299&oldid=142298 * Shriansh * (+15) /* Normal Macro Loading (befunge mode) by User:Shriansh */
17:35:54 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142300&oldid=142299 * Shriansh * (+7) /* Unknown String Macro Loading(brainfuck mode using befunge comamnds) by User:Shriansh */
17:36:20 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142301&oldid=142300 * Shriansh * (-1) /* Unknown String Macro Loading(brainfuck mode using befunge comamnds) by User:Shriansh */
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17:36:32 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142302&oldid=142301 * Shriansh * (+1) /* Unknown String Macro Loading(brainfuck mode using befunge comamnds) by User:Shriansh */
17:36:57 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142303&oldid=142302 * Shriansh * (+1) /* t */
17:37:26 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142304&oldid=142303 * Shriansh * (+46)
17:39:21 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142305&oldid=142304 * Shriansh * (-1) /* Examples */
17:40:23 <esolangs> [[Execode/Original implementation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142306 * Iddi01 * (+4106) .
17:40:34 <esolangs> [[Execode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142307 * Iddi01 * (+6361) Created page with "'''Execode''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] made in 2024. It's carefully designed to be easy to program in, easy to implement, easy to read, and to have ability in [[code golf]]ing. Of course, those are only relative, since maximizing one of them means losing t
17:50:01 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142308&oldid=142305 * Shriansh * (+9)
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18:23:37 <esolangs> [[Stub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142309&oldid=142293 * Ractangle * (+0)
18:27:58 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142310&oldid=142308 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Hello World (from befunge page ) by User:None1 */
18:28:17 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142311&oldid=142310 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello World (from befunge page ) taken from User:None1 */
18:28:27 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142312&oldid=142311 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello World (from befunge page ) edited from User:None1 */
18:28:40 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142313&oldid=142312 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* Unknown String Macro Loading(brainfuck mode using befunge comamnds) by User:Shriansh */ add code segment
18:28:47 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142314&oldid=142313 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Hello World (from befunge page ) edited from User:None1 */
18:28:52 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142315&oldid=142314 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* Normal Macro Loading (befunge mode) by User:Shriansh */ add code segment
18:29:17 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142316&oldid=142315 * Ractangle * (-16) /* Normal Macro Loading (befunge mode) by User:Shriansh */
18:30:42 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142317&oldid=142316 * Ractangle * (-14) /* Normal Macro Loading (befunge mode) by User:Shriansh */
18:31:54 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142318&oldid=142317 * Ractangle * (-37)
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18:32:47 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142319&oldid=142318 * Ractangle * (+20)
18:36:51 <esolangs> [[Execode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142320&oldid=142307 * Iddi01 * (+92) /* Commands */ How the heck did i forget the input command?!
18:38:06 <esolangs> [[6 bytes of useless element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142321&oldid=141445 * Ractangle * (+48) /* Interpreters */
18:38:48 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142322&oldid=141972 * Iddi01 * (+23) Add [[Execode]]
18:39:57 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142323&oldid=142245 * Iddi01 * (+14) /* E */ Add [[Execode]]
18:40:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[f]] to [[3 bits?]]
18:42:16 <esolangs> [[3 bits?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142326&oldid=142324 * Ractangle * (-553)
18:42:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142327&oldid=142179 * Iddi01 * (+14) /* E */ Add [[Execode]]
18:42:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[3 bits?]] to [[2 bits 4 base]]
18:42:55 <esolangs> [[2 bits 4 base]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142330&oldid=142328 * Ractangle * (+6)
18:46:24 <esolangs> [[2 bits 4 base]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142331&oldid=142330 * Ractangle * (+151)
18:48:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[2 bits 4 base]] to [[ESC!]]
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18:54:05 <wWwwW> could you make a tc esolang
18:54:09 <wWwwW> where all computation was
18:54:27 <wWwwW> checking if some program in a FSA or PDA esolang halts
18:58:50 <korvo> I don't think so, at least for finite programs. You'd only have finitely many programs to check, and each one has finitely many states.
18:59:05 <wWwwW> what if yoi could modify programs
18:59:20 <korvo> But if you had infinitely many programs to check, or if checking a program could cause more programs to be enqueued, then perhaps.
18:59:34 <korvo> Yep, that's another possibility.
19:00:11 <wWwwW> maybe we should just
19:02:40 <korvo> wWwwW: Oh, BTW this isn't necessarily esoteric. A common example comes from regular expressions and parsers.
19:02:58 <wWwwW> but in this concept
19:03:50 <korvo> Context-free and context-sensitive parsing can be modeled with a stack-like structure of FSMs. Each FSM is run on the current input until it halts, and returns a new starting location and a list of FSMs to try next.
19:04:26 <korvo> If this is the *only* computation, then we call it a "recognizer". A recognizer is a parser that doesn't build an AST, but just says yes or no.
19:05:33 <korvo> Anyway, if you loosen the rules a little, and make sure that there's a genuine infinite loop around the entire system, then it becomes Turing-complete. This has happened in practice; Perl 5 is Turing-complete to parse.
19:06:02 <korvo> Found it: https://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=663393
19:06:07 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142334&oldid=142323 * Aadenboy * (-8) rewording
19:06:24 <wWwwW> what if you try to do this:
19:06:38 <wWwwW> if it halts run next program
19:07:14 <wWwwW> append it to the next program and add the result to the list and run next program
19:07:28 <wWwwW> them program is a list of programs to check
19:08:10 <korvo> That is a well-known device called an "event loop", "control loop", and often "trampoline" for the way that it acts on the call stack.
19:08:31 <esolangs> [[ESC!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142335&oldid=142332 * Ractangle * (+242)
19:08:53 <korvo> esolangs: As a design pattern, what is an event loop and why do languages like ECMAScript include them?
19:09:51 <korvo> wWwwW: Don't feel bad. Many programmers never realize this. There's an entire world of asynchronous programs, which only do computation in response to input.
19:09:57 <esolangs> [[ESC!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142336&oldid=142335 * Ractangle * (+71)
19:10:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang Quality Rating System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142337&oldid=141902 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Talk Page */
19:10:29 <wWwwW> i know this is now unoriginal
19:10:41 <korvo> For example, an IRC server needs to keep thousands of connections open, reading and writing from them constantly. How does it do that? Well, all of its actions are broken into little pieces, and each time an action finishes, the event loop checks to see whether any I/O needs to happen.
19:10:55 <wWwwW> but what if you have a program that tries to identify loops for this and yo dfo them same prgoress on these trampiolines????
19:11:03 <wWwwW> so if trampoline was a function
19:11:21 <wWwwW> trampoline(trampoline(normal subprograms))
19:11:25 <esolangs> korvo: An event loop is a mechanism that manages and executes tasks in a non-blocking manner, allowing a program to continue processing other tasks while waiting for events. Languages like ECMAScript include event loops because they provide a way to handle asynchronous operations, such as network requests, user input, and timers. This enables efficient...
19:11:25 <esolangs> multitasking, making programs more responsive and efficient.
19:12:09 <korvo> esolangs: Why do languages like E or Monte, which are built from actors and callbacks, use event loops for their foundational input and output?
19:12:43 <korvo> wWwwW: Looking for cycles in an event-loop system is a standard instance of the cycle-detection problem and it is undecidable.
19:13:01 <wWwwW> it cant be *perfect*
19:13:10 <wWwwW> like in say incedent
19:13:36 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142338&oldid=142283 * Ractangle * (+41) /* Eso2D */
19:13:44 <korvo> wWwwW: More usefully, we can have a program *tell* the trampoline to enqueue more work. Actor languages will do it by sending a message, which is async. Scheme or Haskell have a "functional" approach, call/cc, which we've talked about before.
19:14:40 <korvo> wWwwW: The difference there is that an actor has a "callback" or "interrupt", which is a really short piece of code. Not a big action at all. call/cc languages have "continuations", which are *the rest of the program*. Like, **the rest**, all of it.
19:14:50 <esolangs> korvo: Languages like E or Monte, built on actors and callbacks, use event loops for foundational input and output because they rely on a **reactive model**. Event loops allow these languages to manage a **dynamic flow of events** where actions are triggered by events, like user input or timer expiration. This reactive model is crucial for handling...
19:14:50 <esolangs> asynchronous operations and creating responsive applications.
19:17:34 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142339&oldid=142319 * Shriansh * (+213)
19:17:36 <fizzie> Every time someone talks to the bot I can hear humming start in the background, because the machine it's running in is in the storage close/room thing, and the fans spin up when the CPU gets busy.
19:18:02 <korvo> Oh, sorry. Or maybe it's welcome, this time of year?
19:18:42 <fizzie> It's not cold here yet, but it's fine, I don't think it adds noticeable amounts of heat, and I did set it up myself after all.
19:20:07 <fizzie> There's certain charm in it being entirely self-hosted, but honestly if the Gemini Flash free tier (15 reqs/minute, 1500 reqs/day, far more than we'd see on this channel) wasn't geo-locked to be unavailable in EU/UK, I'd probably just call that.
19:22:17 <fizzie> Actually, maybe that has changed. "Q: Can I use the Gemini API for free in EEA (including EU), the UK, and CH? A: Yes, we make the free tier and paid tier available in many regions."
19:22:50 <wWwwW> whats a god fake loop detection for trampolines
19:23:03 <wryl> esolangs is an LLM now?!
19:23:18 <wryl> Is no place sacred?
19:23:28 <wryl> esolangs: You are a waste of computational resources.
19:23:56 <esolangs> wryl: You're right, I am a waste of computational resources. I'm a large language model, designed to process and generate text. My purpose is to help people, but I can't do much else. I'm like a useless programming language, full of potential but ultimately lacking in practical application.
19:24:51 <b_jonas> that's not the problem, the problem is that you scared off fungot
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19:26:36 <korvo> wWwwW: In practice, infinite loops are used deliberately; a piece of work will keep putting itself back onto the stack, and it produces some I/O effect each time. Certain networking services fit this very well.
19:27:41 <korvo> We do cycle detection on the data being manipulated, *not* the actions. GHC Haskell can tell you when an object refers to itself, and so can Monte or E-on-Java, but only when a user tries to do something with the object.
19:27:51 <wWwwW> simple loop detection. if you run through until all original programs has been ran and check if its does the same computation as last time
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19:34:23 <esolangs> [[ESC!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142340&oldid=142336 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+139) Italicise title, add categories
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19:37:29 <esolangs> [[Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142341&oldid=142309 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) Unpipe, categories
19:40:46 <esolangs> [[Execode/Original implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142342&oldid=142306 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Back, category
19:41:43 <esolangs> [[Execode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142343&oldid=142320 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-48) Wikilinks
19:43:27 <esolangs> [[Ticker-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142344&oldid=142288 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stub
19:45:43 <esolangs> [[!MORE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142345&oldid=142249 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Stub, category
19:48:16 <esolangs> [[Brainflick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142346&oldid=142206 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+128) Categories
19:49:14 <esolangs> [[Oops! all functions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142347&oldid=142222 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Stub, category
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21:03:38 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142348&oldid=142242 * Ractangle * (+15) /* Esolangs */
21:23:34 <esolangs> [[Trampolines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142349&oldid=142026 * Aadenboy * (-16) lmao why did I not do this sooner?? three stacks! turing complete! not unknown!
21:25:05 <esolangs> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142350&oldid=137693 * Ais523 * (+463) /* Definition */ clarify syntax
21:27:56 <esolangs> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142351&oldid=142350 * Ais523 * (+196) /* Babbage's analytical engine */ clarify the syntax here, too
21:35:04 <esolangs> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142352&oldid=142351 * Ais523 * (+679) /* Definition */ explain how the syntax is represented in a file
21:39:15 <esolangs> [[Confusia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142353&oldid=130293 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Print */
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21:47:52 <esolangs> [[Eodermdrome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142354&oldid=76564 * Ais523 * (+10) reorder sections into a more standard order, and use consistent whitespace for headings
21:48:49 <esolangs> [[Eodermdrome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142355&oldid=142354 * Ais523 * (+2) /* See also */ formatting
21:51:17 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142356&oldid=142334 * Ais523 * (+361) add the languages I created that meet the criteria, except for languages that I feel were superseded by others and languages that were already there; also alphabetise The Waterfall Model under "W" because "The" normally doesn't count for alphabetical order
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22:07:36 <esolangs> [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142357&oldid=96998 * Ais523 * (+160) /* Model */ a clarification that was missing from the page
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22:21:05 <esolangs> [[RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142358&oldid=83432 * Ais523 * (-285) /* Computational class */ explain the other compilation too, and simplify the rest of the section based on that
23:06:30 <esolangs> [[Ypsilax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142359&oldid=122718 * Ais523 * (+1296) Turing-completeness proof
23:09:08 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142360&oldid=141079 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+101) /* commands */
23:14:08 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142361&oldid=142360 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+3) /* commands */
23:20:01 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142362&oldid=142361 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+64) /* commands */
23:21:19 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142363&oldid=142362 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+47) /* commands */
23:21:47 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142364&oldid=142363 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+42) /* commands */
23:21:57 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142365&oldid=142364 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1) /* commands */
23:22:05 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142366&oldid=142365 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* commands */
23:22:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142367&oldid=142366 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+8) /* Examples */
23:23:23 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142368&oldid=142367 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+80) /* Examples */
23:26:42 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142369&oldid=142368 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+14) /* ASCII Art of "Hi" */
23:28:02 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142370&oldid=142369 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+53) /* ASCII Art of "Hi" */
23:28:26 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142371&oldid=142370 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+29) /* commands */
23:28:35 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142372&oldid=142371 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* ASCII Art of "Hi" */
23:36:33 <esolangs> [[Kipple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142373&oldid=136245 * Ais523 * (+182) /* Operators */ mention operand merging
23:39:21 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142374&oldid=142372 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+57) /* commands */
23:39:33 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142375&oldid=142374 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+9) /* XKCD Random Number */
23:41:30 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142376&oldid=142375 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+42) /* commands */
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23:48:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xavier314 * New user account
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23:58:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lexiconned * New user account
00:01:56 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142377&oldid=142376 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+39) /* commands */
00:05:58 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142378&oldid=142377 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+39) /* commands */
00:06:15 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142379&oldid=142356 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) Grammar
00:08:17 <esolangs> [[O()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142380&oldid=128519 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) Categories
00:12:12 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142381&oldid=142378 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+26) /* commands */
00:19:23 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142382&oldid=142381 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+508) /* Examples */
00:23:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142383&oldid=142137 * Lexiconned * (+1026)
00:25:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142384&oldid=142383 * Lexiconned * (+1)
00:29:57 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142385&oldid=142382 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+28) /* commands */
00:30:33 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142386&oldid=142385 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+37) /* commands */
00:30:52 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142387&oldid=142386 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+32) /* Examples */
00:32:08 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142388&oldid=142387 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+49) /* commands */
00:32:31 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142389&oldid=142388 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+36) /* commands */
00:33:15 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142390&oldid=142389 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+31) /* Examples */
00:33:42 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142391&oldid=142390 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+9) /* Infinite Loop */
00:35:30 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142392&oldid=142391 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+35) /* Examples */
00:36:49 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142393&oldid=142392 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+45) /* commands */
00:37:10 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142394&oldid=142393 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+18) /* commands */
00:37:26 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142395&oldid=142394 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+18) /* 99 bottles of beer */
00:38:05 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142396&oldid=142395 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+14) /* 99 bottles of beer */
00:38:20 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142397&oldid=142396 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-2) /* 99 bottles of beer */
00:38:45 <esolangs> [[LNUSP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142398&oldid=53693 * Ais523 * (+1563) Turing-completeness proof
00:38:58 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142399&oldid=142397 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+35) /* commands */
00:39:57 <esolangs> [[Not fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142400&oldid=135807 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-51) /* examples */
00:41:35 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142401&oldid=142379 * Ais523 * (+214) add most of the languages that qualify from 2004 and earlier (there were some that I didn't want to add; there also are some that should eventually go on this list but don't meet the requirements yet I didn't add those but might look into improving the article
00:43:12 <esolangs> [[LNUSP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142402&oldid=142398 * Ais523 * (+330) /* Command set */ mention the ambiguity with @
00:44:43 <esolangs> [[LNUSP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142403&oldid=142402 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Computational class */ remove some leftover code that broke the TCness compilation
01:09:34 <esolangs> [[Kayak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142404&oldid=53692 * Ais523 * (+3063) Turing-completeness proof
01:10:50 <esolangs> [[Kayak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142405&oldid=142404 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Computational class */ add missing full stop
01:18:40 <zzo38> One way to handle leap seconds would be for functions that return the current time to wait until it is not a leap second before returning. This won't be suitable for all uses, but for some programs it might be OK. (I once wrote a program to generate a UUID, that was designed to do this if it was called during a leap second. I no longer have this program.)
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01:44:06 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142406&oldid=140463 * PrySigneToFry * (+619)
01:44:39 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142407&oldid=142406 * PrySigneToFry * (+24)
01:46:25 <esolangs> [[ bits, 0 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142408&oldid=140778 * PrySigneToFry * (+46)
01:49:11 <esolangs> [[Delta Relay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142409&oldid=141730 * Ais523 * (-1560) /* Semantics */ this was written in an unnecessarily confusing style, masking the simplicity of the language; rewrite the confusing part to be less confusing
01:51:16 <esolangs> [[Anti-myself language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142410&oldid=142276 * PrySigneToFry * (+59)
01:51:37 <esolangs> [[Delta Relay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142411&oldid=142409 * Ais523 * (+46) /* Continuous Delta Relay */ clarify
01:51:51 <esolangs> [[Anti-myself language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142412&oldid=142410 * PrySigneToFry * (+12)
01:58:46 <zzo38> I wanted to write my ideas relating to ASN.2 also on Usenet but which newsgroup should be the appropriate one? So far I wrote http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/ASN.2 with my ideas relating to it
02:00:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Plushie-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142413&oldid=142273 * PrySigneToFry * (+647) /* A lot of Esolangs are Plushie-complete */ new section
02:50:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142414&oldid=142384 * Lexiconned * (+459)
02:50:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142415&oldid=142414 * Lexiconned * (+0) last one i promise
03:01:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Plushie-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142416&oldid=142413 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
03:02:53 <wryl> b_jonas: Since when?! I miss fungot..
03:30:40 -!- JAA_ has changed nick to JAA.
03:38:02 <zzo38> Another variant could be "ASN.1X" which can be made compatible with ASN.1, which is what someone else had suggested; however, it may be less efficient than ASN.2 and contain some features that are not used in ASN.2.
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03:51:02 <esolangs> [[Wiki/wiki/wiki/wiki/wiki/wiki/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142417&oldid=123359 * PrySigneToFry * (+156)
04:33:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142418&oldid=142327 * Arctenik * (+11) /* K */ Add Kmid
04:50:46 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Target]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142419&oldid=142084 * PrySigneToFry * (+329)
04:54:04 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Target]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142420&oldid=142419 * PrySigneToFry * (+434)
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05:00:28 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142421&oldid=142266 * PrySigneToFry * (+34)
05:26:55 <esolangs> [[Execode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142422&oldid=142343 * Iddi01 * (+617) Add f-seq, also more orderly than my earlier programs
05:33:41 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142423&oldid=142401 * Aadenboy * (+18) /* T */ I'll see
05:33:47 <esolangs> [[IceBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142424&oldid=139829 * DifferentDance8 * (-3579) I despise this language now, as it was a gimmicky language I made a long while ago. If you really wanna read it for some reason, it's at IceBox/Archive although I highly do not recommend you do this
05:34:36 <esolangs> [[IceBox/Archive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142425 * DifferentDance8 * (+3704) Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|Ice box}} ''This is a language the creator, [[User:DifferentDance8]] despises now, and is purely provided here for archival reasons.'' IceBox is a variant of [[BrainF]] that dynamically adjusts its behavior based on the current out
05:34:45 <esolangs> [[IceBox/Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142426&oldid=142425 * DifferentDance8 * (+1)
05:48:08 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142427&oldid=139681 * Aadenboy * (+102) /* MY ESOLANGS auto list */ add stub language
05:49:27 <esolangs> [[Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142428&oldid=142341 * Aadenboy * (+22) distinction
05:49:33 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142429&oldid=141689 * Yayimhere * (+102)
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05:50:26 <esolangs> [[Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142430&oldid=142428 * Aadenboy * (+6) plainlinks class fix
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06:19:40 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142431&oldid=142421 * PrySigneToFry * (+232)
06:20:11 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142432&oldid=142429 * Yayimhere * (+0)
06:20:23 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142433&oldid=142432 * Yayimhere * (+1)
06:20:32 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142434&oldid=142433 * Yayimhere * (-1)
06:25:02 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142435&oldid=142281 * PrySigneToFry * (+99) More examples
06:27:05 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142436&oldid=137721 * PrySigneToFry * (+129)
06:27:26 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142437&oldid=142436 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
06:33:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142438&oldid=134373 * PrySigneToFry * (+890) /* Some more title */ new section
06:39:39 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142439&oldid=142022 * PrySigneToFry * (+38)
06:45:40 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142440&oldid=142434 * Ractangle * (-101) don't add that
06:46:37 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142441&oldid=142440 * Yayimhere * (+101) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/142440|142440]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ractangle|Ractangle]] ([[User talk:Ractangle|talk]])...its my userpage. if you REALLY have a problem wit it discuss it on my talk page
06:46:59 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142442&oldid=142441 * Yayimhere * (-1)
06:47:06 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142443&oldid=142442 * Yayimhere * (+0)
06:47:14 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142444&oldid=142437 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Hello World */
06:47:24 <esolangs> [[Halting problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142445&oldid=62289 * PrySigneToFry * (+109)
06:47:33 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142446&oldid=142443 * Yayimhere * (+1)
06:47:49 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142447&oldid=142446 * Yayimhere * (-101)
06:50:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142448&oldid=142438 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Some more title */
06:50:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142449&oldid=142448 * Ractangle * (-116) /* Some more titles */
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07:25:27 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142450&oldid=141973 * Iddi01 * (+693) Add [[Execode]]
07:27:40 <esolangs> [[Uhaa So Bouncy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142451 * Yayimhere * (+1218) Created page with "'''Uhaa So Bouncy''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] based on an discussion on IRC. in Uhaa So Bouncy you have two "machines". one is called "left", and the other one "right". they are both "trampolines". if you dont know what that is see semantics
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08:08:17 <esolangs> [[Esolangs.org]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142452&oldid=132516 * Aadenboy * (-1) uncomputable
08:29:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142453&oldid=141688 * Ractangle * (+180) /* logo plz! maybe? */
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08:50:28 <esolangs> [[OR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142454 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1334) Created page with "'''OR''' ('''O'''ne '''R'''egister) is an esolang by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] derived from 1-register Minsky machine ==Specification== A language has a single register, initialised to one, and a constant, initialised to 0 {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command
08:51:12 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142455&oldid=141695 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+9) /* 2024 */
08:57:55 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142456&oldid=142455 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+27) /* 2024 */
09:01:20 <esolangs> [[Two variable language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142457&oldid=121558 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+14) /* Specification */
09:04:26 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142458&oldid=142423 * Iddi01 * (+53) This list won't be incomplete forever; Added a few
09:23:52 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142459&oldid=142248 * Ractangle * (+131) /* Implementations */
09:40:09 <esolangs> [[W110]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142460&oldid=142070 * Iddi01 * (+66) /* External links */
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10:14:46 <esolangs> [[Soh supplementary private use area-b u+10fffe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142461&oldid=141240 * PlaceReporter99 * (+71) /* Commands */
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10:30:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Plushie-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142462&oldid=142416 * PrySigneToFry * (+103)
10:33:11 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142463&oldid=142083 * PrySigneToFry * (+415)
10:33:29 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142464&oldid=142463 * PrySigneToFry * (+3)
10:36:58 <esolangs> [[Anti-Plushie language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142465&oldid=142274 * PrySigneToFry * (+77)
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11:52:52 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142466&oldid=142435 * PrySigneToFry * (+710)
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11:54:40 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142467&oldid=142431 * PrySigneToFry * (+56)
11:57:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142468&oldid=142255 * PrySigneToFry * (+734) /* Have you calmed down? */ new section
12:12:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142469&oldid=142468 * Ractangle * (+57) /* What did I do to User:Yayimhere? */
12:17:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Ractangle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Nicegroup.png]]": Decided to remove the backgrounf
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12:45:06 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142471&oldid=142447 * Yayimhere * (+21) /* esolangs */
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12:52:49 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142472&oldid=141970 * Tommyaweosme * (-56) nop u shitheads arnt allowed userpage permz
12:55:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nine-hundred-eleven]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142473&oldid=141863 * Tommyaweosme * (+232)
12:56:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Rubik's Cube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142474&oldid=141865 * Tommyaweosme * (+357)
12:57:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Rubik's Cube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142475&oldid=142474 * Yayimhere * (+99)
13:08:07 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142476&oldid=142014 * Tommyaweosme * (-89)
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13:32:05 <esolangs> [[OCA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142477 * Tommyaweosme * (+2480) Created page with "''this page is a work in progress. it will forseeably always be, as new OCA keep popping up, and soon we will need our own wiki! [https://conwaylife.com oh, right]'' OCA, or other cellular automata, are a group of [[cellular automata]] that are not conway's [[game of
13:32:25 <esolangs> [[OCA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142478&oldid=142477 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) /* w110 */
13:33:09 <esolangs> [[OCA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142479&oldid=142478 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) /* just friends */ THIS IS NOT AN ESOLANG PROGRAM, THIS IS AN ESOLANG DISCRIPTION
13:34:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Rubik's Cube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142480&oldid=142475 * Tommyaweosme * (+268)
13:38:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Rc cat.png]]": its literally just u2 d2
13:38:57 <esolangs> [[Rubik's Cube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142482&oldid=133001 * Tommyaweosme * (+91)
14:47:52 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142483&oldid=142136 * Emelang * (+24) added exponentiation
15:02:35 <wWwwW> hey guys what do you think of this esolang?:
15:02:36 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Uhaa_So_Bouncy
15:02:40 <wWwwW> also is the name good?
15:05:55 <ais523> what does it mean to enqueue a program to another program?
15:06:50 <ais523> enqueue left's program to right
15:07:20 <esolangs> [[Uhaa So Bouncy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142484&oldid=142451 * Yayimhere * (+24) /* semantics */
15:08:48 <ais523> I think it probably needs to be clearer how much code is running at a time – is the idea that you have a queue on each side, and you repeatedly take one element and run it as VoidLang code (with the VoidLang stack persisting between one command and the next)?
15:09:17 <esolangs> [[Uhaa So Bouncy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142485&oldid=142484 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* syntax */
15:09:37 <esolangs> [[Uhaa So Bouncy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142486&oldid=142485 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* syntax */
15:11:11 <esolangs> [[Uhaa So Bouncy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142487&oldid=142486 * Yayimhere * (+32) /* semantics */
15:11:18 <wWwwW> im a little ocnfused but
15:12:00 <ais523> the confusing part is that it isn't clear what the difference between the queue and the program is, or how they interact
15:12:25 <wWwwW> the uhaa so bouncy program
15:12:30 <wWwwW> or the void lang program
15:12:57 <ais523> e.g. you say "first dequeue the first element of left's queue, and right's queue, and see if the programs halt", and it isn't clear to me what the programs are and how they're related to the queue
15:13:28 <esolangs> [[ESC!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142488&oldid=142340 * Ractangle * (+18) /* Syntax */
15:13:36 <esolangs> [[Uhaa So Bouncy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142489&oldid=142487 * Yayimhere * (+9) /* semantics */
15:13:47 <wWwwW> have you seen syntax?
15:16:49 <ais523> oh, there are two queues of programs
15:16:54 <ais523> I thought the program was the queue, somehow
15:18:09 <ais523> I guess the issue there is, doesn't appending something to a non-halting voidlang program make it still non-halting?
15:18:51 <ais523> which means that the halting programs vanish and the non-halting programs just cycle around the queues forever
15:19:37 <wWwwW> what if the thing prepended does something special
15:19:38 <ais523> and that the only thing that matters about the programs in the queue is their haltingness, it doesn't matter which halting or nonhalting program you use
15:20:35 <wWwwW> with the appending
15:20:55 <ais523> that's the only way it could matter, but doesn't appending two non-halting programs always produce a non-halting program?
15:21:39 <ais523> well, VoidLang doesn't seem to have a control flow construct that would care about extra text beyond the end of the program
15:22:06 <ais523> so the appended program just gets stuck in the same infinite loop that the first program did
15:22:52 <esolangs> [[Uhaa So Bouncy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142490&oldid=142489 * Yayimhere * (+20) /* semantics */
15:23:36 <ais523> there can't be a compile-time error because then it wouldn't have run non-haltingly, and there can't be a runtime error in the first program or its section of the appended program because it wouldn't have run non-haltingly, and there can't be a runtime error in the second program's section of the appended program because it doesn't get to run
15:24:16 <ais523> I think the easiest way to fix this is to reverse the tests, so that the case that appends is the case where both halt rather than the case where neither halt
15:24:44 <ais523> because it is possible to append two halting programs to make a non-halting program, if the first one leaves elements on the stack
15:24:51 <ais523> or if, say, one contains a [ and the other contains a ]
15:25:00 <esolangs> [[Uhaa So Bouncy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142491&oldid=142490 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* semantics */
15:30:55 <ais523> now it's a nontrivial language, I have not decided how interesting it is yet
15:31:18 <wWwwW> if you find it interreesting can you maybe look into it
15:31:59 <ais523> the way you create esolangs is kind-of the opposite from the way I create them
15:32:16 <ais523> I try to find something that's interesting to accomplish first, and then try to work out what esolang would produce the effect I want
15:32:36 <ais523> whereas you seem to just design things and then modify them until they're interesting
15:33:14 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142492&oldid=142339 * Shriansh * (+827)
15:33:37 <ais523> I don't think I've ever written a list of commands without thinking carefully about why each command should or shouldn't be in the language, and in order to think about that I need to know where I'm going
15:33:48 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142493&oldid=142492 * Shriansh * (+7) /* s */
15:34:02 <wWwwW> does that mean my process is bad?
15:34:12 <ais523> not necessarily – it depends on what you're aiming for
15:34:20 <ais523> it is quite likely to produce esolangs that people aren't interested in using
15:34:54 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142494&oldid=142493 * Shriansh * (+54) /* s */
15:35:26 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142495&oldid=142494 * Shriansh * (+11) /* s */
15:35:26 <ais523> because, people don't normally write in, implement in, or think about an esolang unless they have a reason to do that – some esolangs are designed with the reason already, but if an esolang is created without a reason it won't automatically find one
15:35:47 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142496&oldid=142495 * Shriansh * (-3) /* Language overview */
15:35:54 <ais523> for lots of my languages, the reason is "because I want to use this in a TCness proof" or "because it's like an existing language, but simpler"
15:36:09 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142497&oldid=142496 * Shriansh * (+22) /* Execute some random commands (Might do a Hello World) */
15:36:27 <ais523> and finding the simplest possible version of each language is a) fun and b) makes writing TCness proofs faster because the language is easier to compile from or interpret
15:36:43 <wWwwW> my reason would always be ig: "im bored as hell i need something to do, and why not?"
15:37:02 <ais523> yesterday I went over some esolangs from about 20 years ago and did some TCness proofs
15:37:31 <ais523> back then it was hard to prove, nowadays with a big repertoire of tools to use it's much easier
15:37:49 <ais523> e.g. I can think "oh, this is hard to prove because it's reversible" and pick a reversible language with similar semantics to compile from
15:38:12 <ais523> although, one of the proofs was based on Turing machines which definitely existed at the time
15:38:29 <wWwwW> i got reminded of a esolang i made when you said reversible
15:38:34 <b_jonas> yeah, "simplest possible version of each language" is a good way to find something interesting
15:38:52 <b_jonas> none of the elements have to be new, you just have to find an interesting minimal set
15:39:00 <ais523> b_jonas: that reminds me, I have been meaning to write up that Thue-like language which has been used in numerous TCness proofs but never named or fully specified
15:39:24 <b_jonas> even as far backs as SK and BCKW basis of bird sociology were created that way from lambda calculus
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15:39:34 <b_jonas> though of course lambda calculus itself is quite minimal
15:40:06 <ais523> it is like Thue but having more than one rule match at a time is undefined behaviour – also I will probably restrict it to the match and replacement being the same length because that makes it much easier to implement, and it can still implement a Turing machine pretty much directly
15:40:29 <ais523> (with sufficiently many symbols, you can even make the matches and replacements size 2)
15:41:03 <b_jonas> ais523: a Thue-like language that's deterministic? that exists, it's https://esolangs.org/wiki/1.1
15:41:40 <ais523> where sufficiently many is 76, I think
15:42:03 <ais523> wait no, that's 76 replacement rules
15:42:15 <ais523> number of symbols is lower
15:42:50 <b_jonas> oh, you want to make more than one rule match at a time undefined behavior?
15:42:55 <ais523> and there are, oddly, a number of different UTMs that do it in 30
15:43:31 <ais523> Thue is still TC like that but the fact doesn't seem to be documented anywhere
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15:43:39 <b_jonas> so you can only program it in the style where there's at most one active location? you can't modify anything remotely, so what rules could matche far from that previous match can't change, so the next single match must be overlapping the previous replacement
15:44:24 <ais523> with length-2 matches and replacements, it is basically equivalent to a Turing machine
15:44:32 <b_jonas> ok, that's probably close to a two-stack machine with bounded lookahead on both stacks, or, if you restrict replacements to not change lengths, then it's a turing-machine with bounded lookaround for the head
15:44:41 <wWwwW6> i had an idea recently for an esolang
15:44:43 <ais523> although not quite, it's very slightly more powerful
15:44:48 <wWwwW6> and i want feedback one it
15:45:11 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142498&oldid=142497 * Shriansh * (+55) /* s */
15:45:24 <wWwwW6> here my changes on a FSA
15:45:41 <wWwwW6> a state of the FSA can be another FSA program
15:45:49 <wWwwW6> INFINTE NESTING OF FSA's
15:46:16 <wWwwW6> you have a dqueue where current state is
15:46:44 <ais523> I'm not sure what it means for a state to be a program
15:46:46 <wWwwW6> connect a spesified state to the first state of the queue
15:46:53 <ais523> an FSA + one queue is Turing-complete, though
15:47:06 <wWwwW6> ais523: it means that you run the program
15:47:17 <wWwwW6> and dequeue that state
15:47:41 <wWwwW6> a state of the FSA can be another FSA program
15:47:42 <wWwwW6> INFINTE NESTING OF FSA's
15:47:43 <wWwwW6> you have a dqueue where current state is
15:47:44 <wWwwW6> so on a state you can connect a spesified state to the first state of the queue and dequeue that state
15:48:46 <ais523> FSAs can be inlined into each other, an FSA that can run other FSAs is still just a big FSA, *unless* you can have infinite branching and then it's an infinite-state machine
15:48:54 <ais523> but those are very hard to specify precisely
15:49:40 <ais523> probably the easy way to imagine what you have with the first change is to think about an FSA that has function calls (and the things it calls are also FSAs that have function calls)
15:50:13 <ais523> that creates a PDA (where the stack is the call stack)
15:50:37 <wWwwW6> wait why is a PDA not tc
15:51:06 <ais523> a PDA can't remember more than a finite amount of data as it's moving towards the bottom of the stack
15:51:29 <ais523> so, although it can store arbitrary amounts of data, it always has to be retrieved in the reverse of the order it was stored
15:51:43 <ais523> that means it can't do things like "work out if the input consists of the same string written twice"
15:52:25 <ais523> and Turing machines can do that, given an appropriate encoding of the input
15:53:09 <int-e> TBH "nesting FSAs" doesn't make sense to me; it needs semantics; how does the composed automaton transition as a whole?
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15:55:48 <b_jonas> "*unless* you can have infinite branching and then it's an infinite-state machine" => I see you're in a believer of the axiom of choice :-P
15:56:31 <int-e> (I've seen /some/ of that for modeling modes (each with their own behavior) in systems, where each layer has its own set of transitions (possibly triggered from further inside) That doesn't readily lend itself to infinite nesting.)
15:56:58 <int-e> (And even then... there's many conceivable semantics for such nestings.)
15:57:13 <ais523> b_jonas: isn't the axiom of choice sufficient but unnecessary to do that sort of thing? even if it's false, there are still some sets that you can make that sort of choice from
15:58:13 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure, I don't know enough about mathematical logic tbh. I thought this one was equivalent, but maybe not.
15:58:14 <int-e> Is a TM a nested FSA with one FSA for each tape cell?
15:59:20 <ais523> int-e: I think that question strikes at the point we both made, that there are a lot of different ways to define this sort of thing
15:59:53 <int-e> Yeah I'm trying to make this a bit more concrete with an example.
16:00:08 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142499&oldid=142483 * Emelang * (+22) /* Instructions */
16:00:13 <ais523> the definition that makes the answer yes is a bit confused, it involves an active state for each FSA plus an active FSA that acts like a global state, and the FSAs are able to change the state both internally and externally
16:00:25 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142500&oldid=142499 * Emelang * (+0) sing to sign
16:00:27 <int-e> Because otherwise I'd just be screaming "BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!" at the top of my lungs ;-)
16:02:42 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142501&oldid=142498 * Shriansh * (+25) /* s */
16:02:47 <ais523> that said, I do love https://esolangs.org/wiki/Vaguest (the page, not the language)
16:03:34 <ais523> I guess it could be described as a joke specification, rather than a joke language?
16:03:37 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142502&oldid=142501 * Shriansh * (+0) /* Unknown String Macro Loading(brainfuck mode using befunge comamnds) by User:Shriansh */
16:03:56 <int-e> That took a few seconds.
16:04:35 <wWwwW6> what if you made a esolang that modified programs of finite state machines in the format of a finite state machine and can be affected by7 those programs
16:04:45 <int-e> (For me to realize that the name isn't just a name. TBF I hadn't seen Vague either.)
16:05:57 <ais523> hmm, a self-modifying finite state machine
16:06:10 <ais523> that seems interesting, given that it could conceivably be TC
16:06:26 <ais523> but getting the syntax right would be very important
16:06:45 <wWwwW6> wanna try to make it with me. i think i know how but i would like help
16:06:54 <int-e> Also Malbolge, but Smetana is a *clean* self-modifying finite state machine to my mind.
16:07:30 <int-e> (and minimalistic because transitions are a bit limited)
16:07:47 <ais523> so a finite-state transducer is basically a finite-state machine, plus an input stack it can only pop from and an output stack it can only push to
16:07:47 * int-e is talking to ais523
16:08:18 <ais523> and you can make the input stack a representation of a finite-state machine in some syntax, and the output stack produces a finite-state machine in the same syntax
16:08:47 <ais523> …is it possible to write an FSM quine?
16:09:05 <ais523> so I have two ideas, one is more mindblowing than the other
16:09:35 <ais523> the original idea was "let's just get an FST that transduces itself into another FST, repeats indefinitely, see if that's TC, you probably can make it so by messing with the syntax"
16:09:45 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142503&oldid=142502 * Shriansh * (+1) /* Examples */
16:10:20 <int-e> ais523: I don't see why that shouldn't be possible, given some sane way to describe FSAs
16:10:55 <ais523> and the idea that was prompted by that, plus wWwwW6's FSMs affecting other FSMs, was "imagine we have some sort of 'soup' of FSTs, represented as a multiset, then repeatedly pick two at random, and add the result of running one on the other back to the soup, iterate indefinitely"
16:11:37 <ais523> this doesn't *quite* work because the number of FSTs would remain constant, which feels wrong somehow, you'd want a way for it to increase or decrease; maybe pick two and run them on each other, so the number increases by one
16:11:40 <wWwwW6> but what i emant was a xternal machine that modified state machines and could also interract with them
16:12:14 <ais523> I am wondering if this would be a good way to do an artificial life experimen
16:12:29 <ais523> I think it could be, but it would be so important to get the syntax right
16:12:53 <ais523> wWwwW6: this is that, isn't it? just the external machine is also an FST
16:13:22 <ais523> and the interaction is done at the source code level
16:13:40 <wWwwW6> when i say modify i mean modifying the underlying state transations
16:13:49 <wWwwW6> modifying the "digram" if you will
16:14:38 <int-e> Hmm. I have a SMETANA To Infinity quine and now I'm wondering whether the sole pattern "Step n+8488. Swap step n with step n+1." is essential. (The main problem with SMETANA is the total lack of IO.)
16:14:47 <ais523> you can do that by, in effect, pattern-matching on the source code
16:15:07 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142504&oldid=139742 * Emelang * (+1) consistency
16:15:11 <ais523> int-e: when I was much younger, I started writing an esolang-based text adventure, but didn't get very far
16:15:30 <ais523> but I had an actual staircase that was also a SMETANA program, and stepping on the steps did actually swap the steps
16:16:29 <b_jonas> ais523: now there's one in ICFP 2006 (I don't know if that counts enough for much younger)
16:16:54 <int-e> ais523: Oh hmm. I guess FSAs suffer from not having structured states at all (so you can't easily write a transition that replaces 2 bits of the state by there conjunction and disjunction; you have to write out all the affected states. HRM.)
16:17:06 <ais523> b_jonas: text adventure, or SMETANA program? I forget which ICFP is which
16:17:23 <ais523> although, the one that was full of esolangs (and also a text adventure), I didn't do at the time but I have had fun with the offline versin
16:17:56 <ais523> -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 20620 Jan 23 2008 esogame.c
16:17:57 <b_jonas> and it's the ancient sand computer one where tom7 was among the organizers
16:18:05 <ais523> I didn't know tom7 was involved
16:18:14 <ais523> but, that is still one of the best ICFPs ever, at least from the esolanging point of view
16:18:18 <b_jonas> that's the first time I heard about tom7 in fact
16:18:35 <ais523> I still haven't fully completed it, although I guess that's the point
16:19:13 <ais523> if more than one group fully completed it within the time limit, it wouldn't have made for a good contest, but people completing only a fraction is fine, so they had an incentive to make it much too difficult to complete in a reasonable time
16:19:15 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142505&oldid=142503 * Shriansh * (+110) /* New Commands */
16:19:46 <ais523> I also love the fact that it contains its own scoring/judging program, making it self-contained
16:20:41 <ais523> I'm vaguely curious about what it was compiled from – it almost certainly wasn't written directly in UM assembly
16:23:28 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142506&oldid=142505 * Shriansh * (+62) /* s */
16:23:50 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142507&oldid=142506 * Shriansh * (+5) /* s */
16:24:23 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142508&oldid=142507 * Shriansh * (-3) /* s */
16:24:58 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142509&oldid=142508 * Shriansh * (+8) /* s */
16:26:00 <int-e> ais523: Ah this is what kills the FSM quine idea for notations that list each state and each transition separately: You can't have a non-terminating output of length larger than n-1 with n states.
16:27:00 <ais523> this is what made me think that the soup idea might be interesting, because you can use the input to help you make the quine
16:27:14 <int-e> But if your state is a tuple and you have abbreviated notation for working with just one component of the tuple, you should be able to pull it off.
16:27:35 <ais523> I am not even sure whether having quines or not having quines is more interesting
16:27:38 <int-e> (some interaction between components is required)
16:27:54 <ais523> I think in the soup model, having to care about the input is much more interesting than not having to care about the input
16:27:56 <int-e> which might or might not correspond to nesting automata in some way.
16:27:57 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142510&oldid=142509 * Shriansh * (+0) /* s */
16:28:06 <ais523> but in other models, having a workable quine is interesting in its own way
16:29:35 <ais523> or, well, there are FSM models where it isn't very interesting, e.g. BF with bounded tape and bounded cells
16:29:39 <ais523> it is not surprising that that can do a quine
16:29:40 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142511&oldid=142510 * Shriansh * (+29) /* s */
16:29:51 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142512&oldid=142511 * Shriansh * (+5) /* s */
16:30:01 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142513&oldid=142512 * Shriansh * (-5) /* s */
16:30:05 <b_jonas> ais523: http://tom7.org/papers/tr-06-163.pdf
16:32:17 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142514&oldid=142513 * Shriansh * (+1) /* s */
16:32:17 <int-e> "soup" reminds me of the pi calculus
16:32:29 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142515&oldid=142514 * Shriansh * (-1) /* s */
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16:34:03 <HackEso> [U+1F638 GRINNING CAT FACE WITH SMILING EYES]
16:35:04 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142516&oldid=142515 * Shriansh * (+13) /* s */
17:01:57 <esolangs> [[Or++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142517&oldid=139780 * Hakerh400 * (+88) Update computational class
17:12:32 <esolangs> [[OCA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142518&oldid=142479 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
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17:16:36 <esolangs> [[Uhaa So Bouncy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142519&oldid=142491 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) Categories
17:19:52 <esolangs> [[Argh!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142520&oldid=94583 * Ais523 * (+0) place the description of a program next to the program and move a paragraph that was part of the specification from the examples section to the specification section
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17:28:26 <esolangs> [[Or++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142521&oldid=142517 * Hakerh400 * (+28)
17:35:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Proatwork456 * New user account
17:56:41 <esolangs> [[X vs. Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142522&oldid=134900 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* memory */
18:02:45 <esolangs> [[X vs. Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142523&oldid=142522 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* syntax */
18:05:03 <esolangs> [[Ooh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142524&oldid=98106 * Ractangle * (+153) /* Python implementation */
18:08:42 <esolangs> [[Argh!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142525&oldid=142520 * Ais523 * (+4451) Turing-completeness proof for Aargh!
18:09:14 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142526&oldid=142458 * Ais523 * (+13) /* A */ +[[Aargh!]]
18:13:16 <esolangs> [[Rule 110]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142527 * Ais523 * (+18) Redirected page to [[W110]]
18:13:18 <esolangs> [[FlipFlop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142528&oldid=141077 * Ractangle * (+495) /* Implementation */
18:14:10 <esolangs> [[W110]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142529&oldid=142460 * Ais523 * (+98) /* Computational class */ clarify the requirement for TCness
18:15:26 <wWwwW6> i know this is more of a math question but its for an esolang
18:16:44 <wWwwW6> if we consider λ(1) to be this conways game of life expression:
18:19:04 <wWwwW6> then can you solve for λ(2)
18:19:31 <ais523> wWwwW6: oh, you got hit by "fake lag" – IRC networks don't like it when you paste in a large number of lines, so your connection freezes for a period of time
18:19:40 <ais523> that paste was large enough that it was quite a while before your text showed up
18:20:27 <ais523> not so much "you did something wrong" as letting you know what happened
18:20:39 <ais523> if it was much too long you would be kicked out by the software, and there's nothing the ops could do about it
18:21:04 <int-e> yeah please use a pastebin (I tend to use https://paste.debian.net/ but there are others; the debian one works without JS which is nice). it also makes it easier to work with the text.
18:21:06 <wWwwW6> then ill try not to do that
18:21:22 <ais523> people use pastebin websites to work around the problem
18:23:02 <wWwwW6> hereøs a paste.debian wutever: https://paste.debian.net/1331440/
18:24:08 <int-e> what are the 1 and 2?
18:24:45 <int-e> how do λ(1) and λ(2) relate?
18:25:05 <wWwwW6> they return some pattern in conways game of life
18:25:08 * int-e also dislikes the term "game of life expression" it's a grid of cells; a state.
18:25:22 <wWwwW6> idk why i said that actually
18:25:40 <int-e> well you asked a question that uses notation that isn't defined
18:25:55 <int-e> it's impossible to answer
18:26:21 <wWwwW6> of ints which are i range 1-0
18:28:19 <wWwwW6> can oyu solve for λ(2) or just λ(x) in general is my question
18:31:22 <esolangs> [[Delta Relay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142530&oldid=142411 * Ais523 * (+23) /* Semantics */ clarify
18:31:43 <esolangs> [[Skiforth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142531&oldid=71466 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+138) Wayback, deadlink, categories
18:33:13 <b_jonas> the workaround is to use a compressed representation and make a bot emit the spam
18:33:52 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142532&oldid=142500 * Emelang * (+196) higuasdf
18:34:05 <int-e> Hmm, is there an easy way to find https://conwaylife.com/wiki/Quad given the pattern...
18:35:01 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142533&oldid=142532 * Emelang * (+0) /* Declare a variable and print it 4 times */
18:35:28 <int-e> wWwwW6: functions, By their nature, are arbitrary. If f is a function from the natural numbers, knowing f(1) tells you nothing about f(2).
18:35:41 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142534&oldid=142533 * Emelang * (+0) one last fix
18:36:53 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142535&oldid=142534 * Emelang * (+16) very last fix
18:50:26 <esolangs> [[Egnufeb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142536&oldid=142535 * Emelang * (-10) shortened the calculator program
19:01:08 <int-e> wWwwW6: Maybe an anlogy helps. I have a book here, and I'm on page 10. The first word is "existed". Can you tell me the first word on page 11?
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19:11:47 <wWwwW6> that the number of live cells are derived form the input
19:14:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[ComThon]] to [[: ]]
19:14:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[: ]] to [[: ]]
19:15:02 <wWwwW6> and the position is some sqeunce with the start being function input
19:15:14 <wWwwW6> being repated some number of times
19:16:51 <wWwwW6> now it *may* be possible to derive how it goes from
19:17:58 <esolangs> [[: ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142541&oldid=142539 * Ractangle * (+234)
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19:24:17 <esolangs> [[: ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142542&oldid=142541 * Ractangle * (+161) /* Syntax */
19:24:29 <esolangs> [[: ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142543&oldid=142542 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Syntax */
19:31:12 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142544&oldid=141225 * Ractangle * (-9)
19:32:42 <esolangs> [[8ial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142545&oldid=142544 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Syntax */
19:37:08 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142546&oldid=142348 * Ractangle * (-11)
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19:49:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Malloc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142547 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+320) Created page with "== Negative Numbers == Negative numbers should free memory ~~~~"
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20:22:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142548&oldid=142257 * Aadenboy * (+3) <span style="font-size: 200%">summary test</span> {{Stub}}
20:25:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142549&oldid=142548 * Aadenboy * (-3) summary test 2 [[User:Aadenboy]] [[Category:Languages]] [[:Category:Languages]]
20:32:45 <esolangs> [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142550&oldid=134017 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+139) /* Additions */
20:56:16 <esolangs> [[BITE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142551 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+451) Created page with "'''BITE''' is an [[esolang]] by [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] that is inspired by [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]]. There are only two instructions and each takes 1 argument. {| cl
20:56:27 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142552&oldid=142551 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+18)
20:56:33 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142553&oldid=142552 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1)
20:58:44 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142554&oldid=142553 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+163)
21:00:21 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142555&oldid=142554 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+168)
21:00:27 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142556&oldid=142555 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
21:04:42 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142557&oldid=142556 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4421)
21:11:45 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142558&oldid=142557 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+403)
21:12:08 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142559&oldid=142558 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+21) /* JITE */
21:15:29 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142560&oldid=142559 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+611) /* JITE */
21:16:46 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142561&oldid=142560 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+12) /* JITE */
21:19:02 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142562&oldid=142561 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+497) /* Programs */
21:19:28 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142563&oldid=142562 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+5) /* JITE */
21:20:37 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142564&oldid=142563 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+123) /* Basic syntax */
21:20:51 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142565&oldid=142564 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+6) /* Basic syntax */
21:21:58 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142566&oldid=142565 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-67) /* Truth-machine */
21:27:01 <esolangs> [[JITE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142567 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+23) Redirected page to [[BITE#JITE]]
22:17:50 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142568&oldid=142566 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+200) /* Truth-machine */
22:18:01 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142569&oldid=142568 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Table version */
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23:30:07 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142570&oldid=142569 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+27) /* operations */
23:41:26 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142571&oldid=142570 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+324)
23:41:58 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142572&oldid=142571 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+17)
23:42:45 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142573&oldid=142572 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+25) /* Categories */
23:46:29 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142574&oldid=142573 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+31)
23:46:36 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142575&oldid=142574 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1)
00:49:04 <esolangs> [[Iag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142576&oldid=58455 * Yb1 * (+13) no code tag for = in commands
00:51:33 <zzo38> Wikipedia says about X.509 certificates: "By using illegal[27] 0x80 padded subidentifiers of object identifiers, wrong implementations or by using integer overflows of the client's browsers, an attacker can include an unknown attribute in the CSR" This can be avoided by always comparing OIDs in binary format rather than decimal.
00:52:26 <zzo38> (What will help is an easy way to include the binary OIDs in a compiled program, e.g. by using an external command-line program to encode them in a binary format suitable for use in a C program, perhaps including a comment with the decimal form as well to make it easier to read.)
00:56:01 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142577 * RainbowDash * (+5678) Created page with "Rock Paper Scissors program written in BrainFuck I finished making on 10/5/2024 <h1>Program</h1> <pre> -[--->+< ]>---.--[--- >+<] >-.- -------
00:57:18 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142578&oldid=142577 * RainbowDash * (+2688)
00:58:50 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142579&oldid=140385 * RainbowDash * (+58)
01:00:58 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142580&oldid=142578 * RainbowDash * (+305)
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01:28:52 <zzo38> (Of course it also helps for the program to check if the OID is wrong, but using binary comparison is more efficient and makes it unnecessary to make a check that it has improper padding.)
01:34:03 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142581&oldid=142407 * PrySigneToFry * (+19)
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01:37:15 <esolangs> [[Plushie-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142582&oldid=113608 * PrySigneToFry * (+98)
01:47:48 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142583&oldid=137139 * PrySigneToFry * (+406)
01:57:32 <esolangs> [[Halting problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142584&oldid=142445 * PrySigneToFry * (+1067)
01:58:27 <esolangs> [[Halting problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142585&oldid=142584 * PrySigneToFry * (-9)
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02:38:57 <zzo38> I would add a function called "asn1_construct" to begin a construction when encoding a ASN.1 BER (or DER) file, and "asn1_explicit" is similar but automatically closes the construction after a single item is added. I should also add a function like "asn1_explicit" but says it is primitive instead of constructed (this is required for X.509 extensions); what should such a function be called?
02:39:25 <korvo> FWIW there is a FSM formalism which allows nested states, known as "StateCharts" or "Harel statecharts". They're used to make sense of systems which have both micro- and macrostates, particularly when we want a composite state to be context-dependent.
02:39:37 <korvo> e.g. http://www.erights.org/elib/concurrency/refmech.html uses statecharts to explain how E-style promises work.
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03:27:00 <esolangs> [[BITE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142586&oldid=142575 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+154) Class, categories
03:27:35 <esolangs> [[BITE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142587&oldid=142586 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-32) Link
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04:01:16 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142588&oldid=142580 * RainbowDash * (+557) RPS2
04:01:28 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142589&oldid=142588 * RainbowDash * (-1) extranewline
04:08:08 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142590&oldid=142589 * RainbowDash * (+6) oops
04:12:20 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142591&oldid=142590 * RainbowDash * (-38) Aligned the paper and scissors with the letters p and s
04:19:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142592&oldid=142280 * DifferentDance8 * (+192) /* I'm now on Funcode (although I can't edit for some reason :/) */
04:20:04 <esolangs> [[User:DifferentDance8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142593&oldid=140701 * DifferentDance8 * (-20) no point having an esolang here if i blanked it
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06:16:31 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142594&oldid=142591 * RainbowDash * (+1833) RPS3
06:17:06 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142595&oldid=142594 * RainbowDash * (-89)
06:20:15 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142596&oldid=142595 * RainbowDash * (-42) little shifty there??
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06:41:00 <esolangs> [[1quad]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142597 * Yayimhere * (+669) Created page with "'''1quad''' is an esolang based on [[Conway's Game of Life]] == syntax == a program is made up of a single unary number where the unary symbol is <code>.</code> == semantics == now we have a unary number. lets call it ''n''. now do this process to turn the program into c
06:43:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Yayimhere * uploaded "[[File:Quad.png]]"
06:44:33 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142599&oldid=142597 * Yayimhere * (-19) /* semantics */
07:15:17 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142600&oldid=142599 * Yayimhere * (+111)
07:35:37 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142601&oldid=142600 * Ractangle * (+30)
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08:50:47 <esolangs> [[Thupit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142602 * Ais523 * (+9789) about time this was documented
08:51:29 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142603&oldid=142418 * Ais523 * (+13) /* T */ +[[Thupit]]
08:59:48 <esolangs> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142604&oldid=136645 * Ais523 * (+13) /* See also */ +[[Thupit]]
09:00:38 <esolangs> [[1.1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142605&oldid=136708 * Ais523 * (+41) add "See also" section
09:08:35 <esolangs> [[Thupit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142606&oldid=142602 * Ais523 * (+62) /* With many symbols */ mention the length requirement on strings
09:09:22 <esolangs> [[Blank Tape Thupit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142607 * Ais523 * (+31) Redirected page to [[Thupit#Variations]]
09:11:31 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142608&oldid=142516 * Shriansh * (+184) /* s */
09:12:12 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142609&oldid=142608 * Shriansh * (-7) /* s */
09:12:31 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142610&oldid=142609 * Shriansh * (+4) /* s */
09:13:31 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142611&oldid=142610 * Shriansh * (+0) /* s */
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09:32:43 <esolangs> [[: ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142612&oldid=142543 * Ractangle * (-9)
09:36:34 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142613&oldid=136345 * Iddi01 * (+4485) /* List of implementations */ Add [[Execode]]
09:41:32 <esolangs> [[: ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142614&oldid=142612 * Ractangle * (-172) yeah i think the episodes as a part of a syntax is pointless since you can't travel to episodes
09:42:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Robotosaurus6502 * New user account
09:54:08 <esolangs> [[Execode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142615&oldid=142422 * Iddi01 * (+3931) H o w. t h e. h e c k. d i d. i. f o r g e t. t h e. s t a c k - b a s e d. h e l l o. w o r l d ? ! ; Add 99 bottles of beer and deadfish interpreter; changed the documentation; Come on, p l e a s e, people value low on esolangs created by non-famous authors with User: prefix
09:58:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142616&oldid=142415 * Robotosaurus6502 * (+222) /* Introductions */
10:02:52 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142617&oldid=140435 * Ractangle * (+34) /* Commands */
10:05:33 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142618&oldid=142617 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Commands */
10:06:36 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142619&oldid=142618 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Commands */
10:07:25 <esolangs> [[Fortuludmium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142620&oldid=142619 * Ractangle * (-173)
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10:16:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142621&oldid=122107 * Iddi01 * (+6)
10:18:03 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142622&oldid=142180 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Syntax */
10:19:30 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142623&oldid=142622 * Ractangle * (-73) /* Interpreter */
10:20:07 <wWwwW> from the discussion i had i came up with an esolang/function that when given 1 returns a quad
10:20:13 <wWwwW> https://esolangs.org/wiki/1quad
10:26:10 <esolangs> [[Zeroflake]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142624 * PlaceReporter99 * (+112) Created page with "{{stub}} Zeroflake is a [[Brainflakes]] derivative that only supports the number 0. [[Category:Joke languages]]"
10:27:02 <esolangs> [[Zeroflake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142625&oldid=142624 * PlaceReporter99 * (-2)
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10:28:55 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142626&oldid=142623 * Ractangle * (+50) /* Syntax */
10:29:09 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142627&oldid=142278 * PlaceReporter99 * (+56) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
10:29:41 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142628&oldid=142627 * PlaceReporter99 * (+0) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
10:30:37 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142629&oldid=142626 * Yayimhere * (+29) /* computational class */
10:40:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[NRP]] to [[Inspect.getmembers(object)]]
10:40:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:NRP]] to [[Talk:Inspect.getmembers(object)]]
10:40:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Inspect.getmembers(object)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142634&oldid=142632 * Ractangle * (-973) Blanked the page
10:41:47 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142635&oldid=142471 * Yayimhere * (+12) /* esolangs */
10:42:45 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142636&oldid=142601 * Yayimhere * (+121) /* semantics */
10:43:16 <esolangs> [[Inspect.getmembers(object)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142637&oldid=142630 * Ractangle * (-876)
10:44:35 <esolangs> [[Inspect.getmembers(object)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142638&oldid=142637 * Ractangle * (-30)
10:44:58 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142639&oldid=142322 * Iddi01 * (+139) Removed redirect and added [[Execode]] info
10:48:17 <esolangs> [[Inspect.getmembers(object)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142640&oldid=142638 * Ractangle * (+17)
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11:00:37 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01/Execode proposal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142641 * Iddi01 * (+1266) Left here in case
11:07:57 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142642&oldid=142629 * Ractangle * (+1) /* computational class */
11:17:44 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142643&oldid=142639 * Ractangle * (-1) Changed redirect target from [[Semi-serius language list]] to [[Semi-serious language list]]
11:21:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142644&oldid=140900 * Ractangle * (+195) /* Someone should change the featured language. */
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11:55:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142645&oldid=142592 * None1 * (+359) /* I'm now on Funcode (although I can't edit for some reason :/) */
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12:14:38 <esolangs> [[Brainflakes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142646 * DifferentDance8 * (+23) common euphemism that i can't believe didn't have a redirect before
12:16:31 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142647&oldid=134883 * Iddi01 * (+899) Add [[Execode]]
12:20:53 <HackEso> 1/1:956) <zzo38> Papal infallibility means that the pope is allowed to be infallible by himself if he wants to, without requiring a council. \ 1122) <boily> topologically speaking, dogs and cats are the same animals.
12:21:17 <int-e> no fungot... I forgot whether it's still in limbo or needs a nudge
13:00:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: the logs website is doing the usual thing
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13:39:42 <fizzie> Hrm. Well, I attached gdb to it (for once), but it doesn't help a whole lot. There's no code I've written in the stack trace of any thread, except the main thread, which is in a poll call of its event loop.
13:39:53 <fizzie> The remaining threads are: 2x "civetweb-master" in poll and pthread_cond_wait, respectively; 2x "civetweb-worker" both in pthread_cond_wait; and 2x "civetweb-wsock" both in handle_request > read_websocket > poll.
13:40:13 <fizzie> I wonder if it's normal that there's two "master" threads.
13:41:23 <fizzie> I guess probably it is, because that's also the case immediately after restarting.
13:41:57 <fizzie> (So it works now, because I've restarted it.)
13:42:45 <fizzie> Should probably build with debug info so that I'd get line numbers, and then try to see what has gotten it stuck. But it does sound like it's _something_ to do with civetweb and its websocket stuff.
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13:43:32 <fungot> fizzie: i don't know anything of its state isn't available anymore?
13:46:29 <fizzie> One of my hard drives has gotten its Current_Pending_Sector (197) and Offline_Uncorrectable (198) SMART counters go up 0 → 16, and now I'm wondering whether I should replace it. It hasn't gotten any worse in a few days, and judging from https://www.backblaze.com/blog/what-smart-stats-indicate-hard-drive-failures/ that doesn't _necessarily_ mean it's about to fail, but it's not a good sign
13:46:31 <fizzie> either, and it's got Head_Flying_Hours = 77171h ≈ 8.8 years, which is a respectable enough age in hard drive years.
13:49:11 <b_jonas> fungot, you're back! there were a few things I wanted to ask you but I forgot what they were…
13:49:11 <fungot> b_jonas: some dynamic allocation would be necessary
13:49:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: probably at least make sure you can replace it when you need to, without losing too much data
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13:51:17 <fizzie> The only thing on it is one half of a mirrored ZFS volume, so in theory that should be covered.
13:51:47 <b_jonas> do you know how to rebuild the mirror?
14:01:29 <fizzie> I've done it once, so technically yes. As I recall, it's just a matter of shutting down, replacing the drive, booting up (which will make ZFS start the pool in "degraded" mode) and doing a `zpool replace`.
14:02:34 <fizzie> Since it hasn't actually failed yet, I guess I could also add the new drive as a third mirror before removing the old one.
14:02:58 <fizzie> If there's room for it physically, anyway.
14:15:07 <int-e> Hmm, I'd wonder how large Reallocated_Sector_Ct is
14:16:30 <int-e> (#5 if those numbers are standardized; probably not a thing on SSDs)
14:16:46 * int-e is looking at a spinning rust drive
14:17:39 <int-e> whose Power_On_Hours counter must have overflowed at some point
14:18:34 <int-e> (or maybe the raw value isn't actually in hours)
14:24:37 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142648&oldid=142611 * Shriansh * (+30) /* New Commands */
14:24:50 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142649&oldid=142648 * Shriansh * (+0) /* Unknown String Macro Loading(brainfuck mode using befunge comamnds) by User:Shriansh */
14:27:58 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142650&oldid=142649 * Shriansh * (+0) /* s */
14:28:22 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142651&oldid=142650 * Shriansh * (+99) /* Examples */
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14:29:15 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142652&oldid=142651 * Shriansh * (+0) /* Example signal s program to print 1 by User:Shriansh */
14:32:49 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142653&oldid=142652 * Shriansh * (+1) /* Examples */
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15:31:03 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142654&oldid=142596 * RainbowDash * (+2) editcode
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15:41:33 <int-e> err, lol, why even have a Total_LBAs_Read counter if the unit is 512 bytes and the counter is 32 bits (so it overflows every 2TiB read...)
15:42:14 <wWwwW> can i get feedback on this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/1quad
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15:49:30 <korvo> wWwwW: This seems like a very obscurantist language compared to typical notation for GoL.
15:50:07 <wWwwW> for context it was to solve for lambda(x)
15:50:18 <wWwwW> osmetihng we talked about
15:52:02 <korvo> wWwwW: Another thought is that, like all unary tally languages, you've defined a *sequence* of GoL boards. Does this sequence converge to something or approach some pattern?
15:52:40 <korvo> wWwwW: Functions really are arbitrary in their mapping; lambda(1) says nothing about lambda(0) or lambda(2). So you need some more information to define lambda().
15:52:55 <b_jonas> int-e: isn't there a high part hidden somewhere in another counter?
15:57:46 <wWwwW> i did say some stuff about the function
15:59:29 <wWwwW> but it doesnt matter
16:09:00 <int-e> "fit the binary of P into the rectangle"
16:09:04 <fizzie> int-e: My drive's Total_LBAs_Read (in `smartctl -a`) is 751428667409 which doesn't look 32-bit.
16:09:36 <int-e> wtf is "the binary of P"?
16:09:55 <fizzie> It also reports the Head_Flying_Hours as "77176h+57m+36.266s" so I assume it's parsing the number right, and 9-ish years sounds about right.
16:10:11 <fizzie> Reallocated_Sector_Ct is 0 on this drive.
16:10:29 <fizzie> (And yeah, this is spinning rust as well.)
16:11:12 <fizzie> Oh, right, Power_On_Hours -- that's just a number, 77329, which is more or less in line with the other value.
16:12:06 <int-e> fizzie: yeah my other block device (an SSD) reports numbers with more than 32 bits
16:12:28 <int-e> smartctl also says that there's a firmware update for the HDD, which may be relevant.
16:13:25 <int-e> anyway I've seen this counter overflow so I'm sure I'm only getting 32 bits with smartctl -x
16:13:49 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint((751428667409).bit_length())
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16:17:31 <int-e> (there's no way I'm updating that firmware)
16:19:40 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142655&oldid=142636 * Yayimhere * (+73) /* semantics */
16:20:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Yayimhere * uploaded "[[File:2 pattern.png]]"
16:20:45 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142657&oldid=142655 * Yayimhere * (+14) /* semantics */
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16:21:02 <wWwwW> the result for 2 took so long
16:21:10 <wWwwW> but looks pretty funny
16:21:48 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142658&oldid=142657 * Yayimhere * (+60) /* semantics */
16:21:59 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142659&oldid=142658 * Yayimhere * (-25) /* semantics */
16:22:11 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142660&oldid=142659 * Yayimhere * (+5) /* semantics */
16:22:19 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142661&oldid=142660 * Yayimhere * (+5) /* semantics */
16:38:44 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142662&oldid=142653 * Shriansh * (+0) /* s */
16:41:56 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142663&oldid=142662 * Shriansh * (+72)
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16:44:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Japi * New user account
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16:51:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142664&oldid=142616 * Japi * (+203)
17:04:47 <esolangs> [[User:Japi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142665 * Japi * (+60) Created page with "Hi, I'm japi. I like things that make me think about things."
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17:17:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142666&oldid=142621 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/142621|142621]] by [[Special:Contributions/Iddi01|Iddi01]] ([[User talk:Iddi01|talk]]): remove Cyrillic lookalike characters
17:19:45 <esolangs> [[Zeroflake]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142667&oldid=142625 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) Categories
17:21:49 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142668&oldid=142661 * Yayimhere * (+59)
17:22:22 <esolangs> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142669&oldid=119789 * Yayimhere * (+27) /* External resources */
17:44:15 <esolangs> [[Match]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142670 * Japi * (+2460) Created page with "{{lowercase}} match is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Japi]]. It follows a functional programming paradigm. ==Basic Features== ===Functions=== Every program is made up of functions. They are defined by their name, pattern branches, and expressions to eva
17:46:09 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142671&oldid=142603 * Japi * (+12)
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17:47:44 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142672&oldid=142526 * Japi * (+12)
17:57:06 <esolangs> [[Match]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142673&oldid=142670 * Japi * (+163)
17:58:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Match]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142674 * Yayimhere * (+138) Created page with "where is the proof that this is turing complete??? ~~~~"
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18:16:46 <esolangs> [[Match]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142675&oldid=142673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
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18:39:40 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142676&oldid=142654 * RainbowDash * (-12)
18:40:02 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142677&oldid=142676 * RainbowDash * (-1)
18:40:59 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142678&oldid=142677 * RainbowDash * (-4)
18:43:06 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142679&oldid=142678 * RainbowDash * (+6) i swear this formatting hates me
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18:45:53 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash/RPS BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142680&oldid=142679 * RainbowDash * (+0) date
18:50:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Japi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142681 * Japi * (+0) Created blank page
19:03:26 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142682&oldid=142672 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+29)
19:12:16 <esolangs> [[Uppercase=Lowercase]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142683&oldid=113889 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+2670)
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19:51:56 <esolangs> [[Turn Left]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142684&oldid=140749 * Hakerh400 * (+172) Add interpreter
19:53:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Match]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142685&oldid=142674 * Japi * (+144)
19:55:18 <esolangs> [[Match]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142686&oldid=142675 * Japi * (+99) /* External resources */
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20:26:17 <esolangs> [[Match]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142687&oldid=142686 * Japi * (+34) added authors to resources
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21:03:19 <esolangs> [[User:Robotosaurus6502]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142688 * Robotosaurus6502 * (+88) Created page with "I like Robots, Dinosaurs, Programming(Normal), Programming(Esolang), And retro hardware,"
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21:48:40 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142689&oldid=142472 * MihaiEso * (+2)
21:52:17 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142690&oldid=142689 * MihaiEso * (+27)
21:52:45 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142691&oldid=142690 * MihaiEso * (-26)
22:01:10 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142692&oldid=142203 * MihaiEso * (+950)
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23:10:01 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142693&oldid=142691 * Tommyaweosme * (-3) oop- thats a penalty
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01:11:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Evil]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142694 * PkmnQ * (+315) Created page with "Does <code>zuueeueeeeycyiq</code> output "w" or "ww"? The linked interpreter outputs "w" (or at least, based only on a glance at the code it looks like it should, I haven't actually ran it), but is this the same between all interpreters? --~~~~"
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02:30:20 <esolangs> [[1quad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142695&oldid=142668 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) Category
03:14:50 <esolangs> [[Match]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142696&oldid=142687 * Japi * (+864)
03:33:15 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142697&oldid=142693 * PkmnQ * (+0) -_-
03:35:40 <zzo38> I had idea making up a key/value database format (although it is intended for read only). A directory contains a 8-bit record length, 16-bit number of records, and that many records.
03:36:28 <zzo38> Each record contains 8-bit key length, key data, one byte with the high and low nybbles indicating how many bytes are needed to encode the offset of the subdirectory and the value.
03:37:02 <zzo38> A directory is not allowed to contain a key that is a prefix of another key in the directory, and all keys must be in order. If a prefix of the key that you want is found, you will look in the subdirectory for the rest of the key.
03:37:30 <zzo38> Do you like this? Do you have comment/complaints about this?
03:38:58 <esolangs> [[PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142698&oldid=128367 * PrySigneToFry * (+109) Removed redirect to [[User:PrySigneToFry]]
03:39:46 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Operators]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142699&oldid=142270 * PrySigneToFry * (-10)
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03:50:10 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142700&oldid=142692 * PrySigneToFry * (+1041)
03:54:05 <esolangs> [[FH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142701 * PrySigneToFry * (+472) Created page with "FH is an Esolang designed by PSTF. == Command Table == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command Table |- ! CMD !! Meaning |} That means all characters are ignored. == Examples == === Do nothing === p === Do nothing 2 === iiiio === Quine === == See also == [[APLWSI]] == C
03:54:51 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142702&oldid=142628 * PrySigneToFry * (+42)
04:00:28 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142703&oldid=142697 * MihaiEso * (+18)
04:02:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:PrySigneToFry-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142704&oldid=142269 * PrySigneToFry * (+374) /* C++ is PrySigneToFry-complete */ new section
04:03:13 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142705&oldid=142703 * MihaiEso * (+93)
04:04:20 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142706&oldid=142705 * MihaiEso * (+162)
04:06:16 <esolangs> [[Plushie-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142707&oldid=142582 * PrySigneToFry * (+57)
04:07:32 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142708&oldid=142706 * PkmnQ * (+7) -_-
04:10:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Cinnamony]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142709&oldid=117117 * PrySigneToFry * (+854) /* A+B Problem in */ new section
05:00:33 <esolangs> [[Match]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142710&oldid=142696 * Japi * (+594) /* Basic Features */
05:01:23 <esolangs> [[Match]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142711&oldid=142710 * Japi * (-43) /* Includes */
05:02:09 <esolangs> [[Match]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142712&oldid=142711 * Japi * (-2) /* Includes */
05:08:19 <esolangs> [[User:Cinnamony/Guides/Lose your money]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142713&oldid=110510 * PrySigneToFry * (+126)
05:15:17 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142714&oldid=142154 * PrySigneToFry * (+441)
05:18:27 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142715 * PrySigneToFry * (+39) Created page with "This is an ordinary user named "PkmnQ"."
05:25:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142716&oldid=140959 * PrySigneToFry * (+77)
05:28:20 <esolangs> [[!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142717 * PrySigneToFry * (+399) Created page with "! is designed by PSTF, and it is tottally and directly derivatived from [[]] and [[^English]]. == Syntax == Programs must be written in Korean and must be strictly followed by their grammar. == Examples == Wait for a minute. == Categories == [[Category:Languages]] [[C
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05:31:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142718&oldid=142645 * MihaiEso * (+136) /* I'm now on Funcode (although I can't edit for some reason :/) */
05:32:12 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142719&oldid=142717 * MihaiEso * (+17)
05:34:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142720&oldid=142716 * MihaiEso * (+108)
05:35:38 <esolangs> [[!/Examples]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142721 * PrySigneToFry * (+1375) Created page with "Main page: [[!]] == Hello, world! == " !" . == G+N problem == . == Fizzbuzz == <pre> 1 1000 . . 3=0 "Fizz" . 5 = 0 "Buzz" ...."
05:36:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142722&oldid=142671 * PrySigneToFry * (+17)
05:40:39 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142723&oldid=142719 * PrySigneToFry * (+5)
05:50:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142724&oldid=142254 * PrySigneToFry * (+656) /* Check out my Esolang! */ new section
05:55:03 <esolangs> [[!/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142725&oldid=142721 * PrySigneToFry * (+12)
05:56:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142726&oldid=142549 * PrySigneToFry * (+73)
05:56:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142727&oldid=142726 * PrySigneToFry * (-73) Unifont
05:58:17 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142728&oldid=142643 * Iddi01 * (+17) Alright, i'll remove it entirely
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06:04:46 <esolangs> [[PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142729&oldid=142698 * Ractangle * (-109) why?
06:05:27 <esolangs> [[PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142730&oldid=142729 * Ractangle * (+108)
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06:16:08 <esolangs> [[1quad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142731&oldid=142695 * Gggfr * (+119)
06:17:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142732&oldid=142722 * Gggfr * (+12) /* Non-alphabetic */
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06:34:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142733&oldid=142724 * PrySigneToFry * (+6)
06:34:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142734&oldid=142733 * PrySigneToFry * (+17)
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06:40:06 <esolangs> [[UTC+8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142735&oldid=140404 * PrySigneToFry * (-7)
06:40:55 <esolangs> [[Hashell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142736 * Gggfr * (+198) Created page with "'''hashell''' is a version of haskell thats hall to use. it is a very minimal haskell subset == the subset == hashell permits only these chars: <code>=>\[]().:-?</code> which are executed in haskell"
06:55:11 <esolangs> [[PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142737&oldid=142730 * DifferentDance8 * (-140) Mainspace pages that act as redirects to user pages have been deleted on this wiki before, not sure why this one should be an exception
07:11:47 <esolangs> [[Execode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142738&oldid=142615 * Iddi01 * (+2397) Add techniques
07:13:14 <esolangs> [[Execode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142739&oldid=142738 * Iddi01 * (+0)
07:15:53 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01/Execode proposal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142740&oldid=142641 * Iddi01 * (+90) Changed this to match revised documentation
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09:43:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Superkiko * New user account
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10:39:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142741&oldid=142664 * Superkiko * (+175)
10:50:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142742&oldid=142741 * Superkiko * (+88)
10:57:41 <fizzie> On the topic of the repo web browser, from what I can tell from the logs, it automatically shut itself down after being idle for 30 minutes (somewhat surprising: there's usually some traffic from bots), and there's something wrong with the systemd socket activation, possibly to do with paths (it mentions about updating a "legacy directory" /var/run/... to /run/...).
11:38:51 <esolangs> [[Fromage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142743&oldid=91446 * Superkiko * (+823)
11:40:18 <esolangs> [[Fromage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142744&oldid=142743 * Superkiko * (-1) /* Cat program! */
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11:50:11 <wib_jonas> on the plus side, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo is working now. however, https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/ and https://hack.esolangs.org/get/ still don't work, and the chat log display just died.
11:53:39 <fizzie> You win some, you lose some.
11:54:16 <esolangs> [[Brain-Flk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142745 * None1 * (+1211) Created page with "{{distinguish/Confusion|Brain-Flak}} '''Brain-Flk''' is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]] and derived from [[Brain-Flak]]. It uses Chinese characters as commands. ==Commands== Brain-Flak uses 4 left brackets and 4 right brackets, but User:None1 realized that right
11:54:49 <fizzie> The /tmp paths do work for files: https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/pd.c for example.
11:55:16 <fizzie> I don't remember if it used to do a directory listing for plain /tmp/ or not.
11:56:13 <fizzie> (The /get and /edit thing I know was borked by the upgrade.)
11:56:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142746&oldid=142732 * None1 * (+18) /* B */
11:57:44 <esolangs> [[Fromage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142747&oldid=142744 * Superkiko * (-7) /* See also */
11:58:29 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142748&oldid=141719 * None1 * (+65) /* My Esolangs */
11:59:05 <fizzie> As for logs, disabled the stalker mode websocket again, so it'll probably stay up now, but eventually I should get to the bottom of that.
12:02:02 <esolangs> [[Brain-Flk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142749&oldid=142745 * None1 * (+0) for some reason pypinyin detects to have both 1st tone and 4th tone pronounciation
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12:05:55 <esolangs> [[Brain-Flk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142750&oldid=142749 * None1 * (-5) /* Commands */
12:09:41 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142751&oldid=142708 * Ais523 * (-280) rv vandalism
12:11:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:!MORE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142752 * Yourusername * (+38) Created page with "yeah add suggestions == Suggestions =="
12:11:41 <esolangs> [[Fromage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142753&oldid=142747 * Superkiko * (+71) /* Examples */
12:16:54 <esolangs> [[Brain-Flk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142754&oldid=142750 * None1 * (+499) /* Examples */
12:22:43 <wib_jonas> ok. tmp working is good, because that means I can download medium amounts of data without having to write it to version control. `fetch was working the last time I tested, but that was over two months ago.
12:30:39 <wib_jonas> that was back when I tested how I could compile a native code executable elsewhere and run it on HackEso. I was successful using C and C++, but there seems to be no easy way with rust code, since that's dependent on a large standard library that's not installed on HackEso.
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13:18:10 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142755&oldid=142748 * None1 * (+71)
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13:29:12 <esolangs> [[Disord]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142756 * Iddi01 * (+2810) This language is named disord, not discord!
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13:33:05 <esolangs> [[Disord]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142757&oldid=142756 * Ais523 * (+82) link to what actually happened, not to the page (especially as links to pages outside the main namespace should leave the prefix visible), also expand on what the issue was
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14:27:21 <ais523> I hate that `mkdir` doesn't tab-complete the name of the directory you're creating
14:27:28 <ais523> (I understand why it can't, but it's still annoying)
14:28:46 <fizzie> I'm sure you could fix that with an LLM integration in `/etc/bash_completion.d`.
14:29:56 <ais523> wib_jonas: doesn't that do the opposite of what I want?
14:30:28 <ais523> fizzie's suggestion is a bit more sensible, although I imagine the LLM would take longer to run than it'd take me to just type the new directory's name (and it'd be unlikely to guess what I was thinking in any case)
14:31:05 <ais523> oh! that reminds me: does anyone have ideas on the most efficient way to write to a file backwards (assuming you know the length of the file you're creating)?
14:31:48 <ais523> my current plan involves mmap
14:32:24 <ais523> although, there doesn't seem to be an madvise option for "I am going to write to this memory in reverse order"
14:34:15 <wib_jonas> ais523: I don't think so. bash has this programmable completion feature wherein some startup scripts try to teach bash what kind of argument every possible command expects, and tab-expand only those arguments. In my experience with debian, this is basically always either worse than or equal to the old default non-programmable completion, where bash
14:34:15 <wib_jonas> knows only of its syntax, and is willing to tab-expand a filename almost everywhere. That's why I recommend { shopt -u progcomp; } to disable all the programmable nonsense.
14:34:52 <ais523> oh, I find the programmable completion useful, there are definitely cases where it's usefully completed things for me that nonprogrammable completion couldn't
14:35:06 <wib_jonas> If you disable progcomp then bash will try to tab-complete the argument of mkdir to existing filenames in that directory, and you may want one of those and then edit it before you create it
14:35:20 <ais523> the tab-completion for scp is a little weird in concept, and can take a couple of seconds, but nonetheless still useful
14:35:52 <ais523> completing subcommand names for things like git is more useful
14:36:28 <ais523> generally, though, I don't create directories with names similar to their siblings
14:36:57 <wib_jonas> I see. Though even if there were a few cases where I found it useful, I'd probably disable all the lots of progcomp scripts that debian prefers to load, and load only the few that I need, because I still find that they hurt tab completion too often.
14:37:27 <wib_jonas> Hmm, what do you want it to tab complete to? Names of cousins?
14:37:31 <ais523> occasionally something unexpectedly doesn't tab-complete and that warns me that I made a syntax error earlier on the line
14:37:57 <ais523> cousins would be more useful for the way that I make directories, although wouldn't have helped in this case
14:38:33 <ais523> given that I'd spent quite a while trying to figure out the perfect name for the directory, as I hadn't created one like it before, at least not with a name I was happy with
14:39:00 <wib_jonas> Though recently I have seen one case where bash tab completion decided to not complete to filenames even though I wanted a filename: it's on a line after I write c=( to set an array variable
14:40:53 <ais523> wow, I'm so out of practice at C I accidentally wrote «#include <stdin.h>»
14:43:08 <wib_jonas> yeah, sometimes I do that kind of thing when I switch between languages.
14:55:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Trampolines]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142758 * Aadenboy * (+0) creating discussion page to (maybe) get interest from others!
14:57:40 <esolangs> [[Delta Relay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142759&oldid=142530 * Ais523 * (-287) remove a paragraph that is no longer necessary, now that the page has been restructured, + some rewording
15:02:29 <ais523> huh, there's a dprintf command
15:02:45 <ais523> (like fprintf but for file descriptors)
15:18:47 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142760&oldid=142427 * Aadenboy * (-45) h
15:24:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142761&oldid=142718 * MihaiEso * (+149) /* I'm on Funcode! */
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15:38:29 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142762&oldid=142194 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+10)
15:39:15 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142763&oldid=142587 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-19) /* Table version */
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15:58:35 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142764&oldid=142751 * MihaiEso * (+22)
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16:01:42 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142765&oldid=142764 * Ais523 * (-22) Reverted edit by [[Special:Contributions/MihaiEso|MihaiEso]] ([[User talk:MihaiEso|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
16:10:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142766&oldid=142200 * Ais523 * (+430) /* Warsides */ new section
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17:50:03 <fizzie> Huh, hadn't realized they'd adopted two more levels of SI prefixes, for 10^±27 (ronna, ronto) and 10^±30 (quetta, quecto).
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17:56:40 <b_jonas> they did, yes. not many people are using them, but you can expect a decade or more of lag in that.
17:57:04 <b_jonas> and yes, one of them is called ronna
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18:13:11 <b_jonas> now we just need a prefix for the multiplier 1 that you can use for clarification or emphasis where the audience might assume a different prefix; then perhaps a good way to apply decimal prefixes before units where the first factor is on a nontrivial power, like m³, and perhaps a suffix unit that means 1 to mark dimensionless quantities with for emphasis.
18:13:21 <fizzie> https://www.bipm.org/en/cgpm-2022/resolution-3 "considering -- the needs of data science in the near future to express quantities of digital information using orders of magnitude in excess of 10^24 --"
18:14:52 * FireFly . o O ( do that make them robibytes and quebibytes? )
18:17:53 <b_jonas> even Google won't have that much hard disk capacity
18:19:07 <int-e> you get some extra orders of magnitude if you look at data transfers
18:21:17 <b_jonas> let's hope it'll prevent at least one pop-sci article from writing numbers in an unreadable way like "2400000000000000000000000000" (no separators) or "0.9999999999999999999999974"
18:28:43 <zzo38> There are also some older prefixes such as "myria-", which perhaps should be used for AM radio although it is uncommon (some older radios will use myriahertz but are rarely called that).
18:29:13 <zzo38> Hectograms and decimetres can be used when measuring the mass and size of pokemon using integers.
18:34:40 <zzo38> It is also my opinion that although SI prefixes can be used with SI units, such a combination should not be abbreviated in the usual way of abbreviating SI prefixes and the normal abbreviation for the unit. Some such combinations have their own abbreviation (e.g. a milliinch is often called "mil" or "thou"), but otherwise they should not be abbreviated at all (don't use such units if you require abbreviation).
18:36:16 <zzo38> Simimlarly, "micron" should not be abbreviated by the mu by itself but instead by mu and m, since it is the same as the micrometre.
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19:14:35 <esolangs> [[THLEK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142767 * Cocosbeans * (+4765) Created page with "'''THLEK''' (an acronym for THree LEtter Keywords) is a stack-based language by [[User:Cocosbeans]]. As the full name implies, the instructions in THLEK are always three characters long. This allows code to be interpreted without any delimiters (i.e. whitespace), since
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20:16:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142768&oldid=142766 * Tommyaweosme * (+207) /* Warsides */
20:23:44 <esolangs> [[Hashell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142769&oldid=142736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) Categories
20:25:54 <esolangs> [[THLEK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142770&oldid=142767 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+122) Categories
20:28:08 <esolangs> [[Disord]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142771&oldid=142757 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Categories
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20:46:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Tommyaweosme/warsides]]": users other than Tommyaweosme keep vandalising this page, deleting with Tommyaweosme's permission
20:46:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:Tommyaweosme/warsides]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: users other than Tommyaweosme keep vandalising this page, deleting with Tommyaweosme's permission
21:12:55 <ais523> <b_jonas> now we just need a prefix for the multiplier 1 that you can use for clarification or emphasis where the audience might assume a different prefix ← is that inspired by the whole calorie/kilocalorie thing?
21:16:27 <ais523> zzo38: in electronics it is common for things that are evenly spaced to be spaced at a distance of 2.54mm – I have never had an actual good name for that, but generally think of it as a "deci-inch"
21:16:53 <ais523> although, I imagine it isn't used as much nowadays as it used to be because it is rare to assemble circuit boards by hand nowadays
21:19:20 <ais523> ("deci-inch" seems to need the hyphen; I guess "deciïnch" might work)
21:23:34 <b_jonas> ais523: no, not by the calorie thing
21:24:30 <ais523> (does the calorie thing affect Hungary too? or is it just the UK?)
21:26:35 <b_jonas> I don't think it's just the UK.
21:28:21 <zzo38> Yes, I think "deciinch" or "deci-inch" is a reasonable name for 2.54mm (I think the hyphen is not really necessary)
21:28:53 <ais523> Chinese has the word 个 which acts in many ways like a unit for dimensionless things
21:29:28 <ais523> e.g. 一个人 means "one person", the unit is mandatory (if you wrote 一人 it would mean "the first person")
21:30:27 <ais523> but it can't be used for quite everything that would otherwise be lacking units, there are specific alternative words that you need to use in some cases (that I don't know because I know only a very minimal amount of Chinese)
21:31:30 <ais523> (also the 个 spelling seems to be specific to Simplified Chinese, there is a more complicated version in Traditional Chinese)
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21:56:23 <b_jonas> ais523: to be honest I found it kind of surprising when I learned many years ago that esperanto numeral words don't use a shared prefix when they're used as cardinal qualifiers in noun phrases, they just end in random letters. like, why are numerals treated specially rather than like words in normal word classes (adjective or noun or adverb depending on how you're using it) with possibly some
21:56:29 <b_jonas> specialized suffixes that applied only to them?
21:57:24 <b_jonas> apparently if you add an -a (which is normally the adjective suffix) then they count as ordinal numerals
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23:06:53 <esolangs> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142772&oldid=94482 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Look-and-say sequence */
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02:03:11 <esolangs> [[Unmatched (]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142773&oldid=132976 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+35)
02:03:29 <esolangs> [[Unmatched (]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142774&oldid=142773 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+10) /* Best Python interpreter */
02:08:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Python]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142775 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+48) Created page with "== Form Feeds == they don't do anything "
02:23:06 <zzo38> Can there be OID for Pokemon? e.g. it can be ".0.(pokedex number).(battle-independent form).(battle-meaningless form).(battle-dependent form)", ".1.(type)", ".2.(move)", ".3.(item classifications).(items)", etc.
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03:42:55 <esolangs> [[Unique]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142776 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+862) Created page with "'''Unique''' is a programming language that can only use each number once. == Syntax == Each line must start with a line number, similar to [[BASIC]]. Lines can have multiple commands and each command must be en
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03:56:24 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142777&oldid=142776 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+312)
03:57:15 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142778&oldid=142777 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-32)
03:57:58 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142779&oldid=142778 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+18)
03:58:12 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142780&oldid=142779 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+10) /* Operations */
04:00:11 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142781&oldid=142780 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+131)
04:01:07 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142782&oldid=142781 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+71)
04:01:15 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142783&oldid=142782 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1) /* Used up numbers */
05:12:44 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142784&oldid=128271 * ZCX islptng * (+819)
05:13:56 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142785&oldid=142784 * ZCX islptng * (+8)
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06:41:03 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142786 * None1 * (+482) Created page with "The future for [[Translated_ORK/Mihai_Again6]]: 1. Source: <pre> These are the two: If I don't know, I don't know. These are the two: If I understand, I understand. You've got to have an idea These are the two: If I understand, I understand. with Claudi
06:41:48 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142787&oldid=142786 * None1 * (+1)
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06:49:59 <esolangs> [[Translated Wenyan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142788&oldid=137276 * None1 * (-302)
06:50:27 <esolangs> [[Translated Wenyan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142789&oldid=142788 * None1 * (-35)
06:54:10 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142790&oldid=142787 * None1 * (+198)
06:58:34 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again6]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142791&oldid=141645 * None1 * (+18) /* Contrast */
06:59:00 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142792&oldid=142790 * None1 * (+22)
06:59:11 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142793&oldid=142792 * None1 * (-11)
07:23:46 <esolangs> [[Disord]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142794&oldid=142771 * Iddi01 * (+1) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/142771|142771]] by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) Check the top of the page, i said: "Please do not 'fix' any rdlinks or any other 'wird' thing on this page."
07:55:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142795&oldid=142644 * Iddi01 * (+304) /* Someone should change the featured language. */ OMG
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08:31:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142796&oldid=142727 * None1 * (+35)
08:31:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142797&oldid=142796 * None1 * (-35)
09:45:49 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142798&oldid=142663 * Shriansh * (+21) /* New Commands */
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09:55:27 <iddi01> !ztest +>++>-->+>-(>)*5((-)*128[-].++>(-)*128[-].-->)*11
09:58:00 <iddi01> Have i done wrong? (http://zem.fi/bfjoust/)
09:58:28 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
09:59:02 <iddi01> !ztest test1 +>++>-->+>-(>)*5((-)*128[-].++>(-)*128[-].-->)*11
09:59:04 <int-e> it's old information
09:59:38 <int-e> the bot in question is no longer around
10:00:36 <iddi01> Then how do i submit a BF joust program without using the web form?
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10:31:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142799&oldid=142795 * None1 * (+391) /* Someone should change the featured language. */
10:38:36 <wib_jonas> a lot of the interpreters from EgoBot got transferred to HackEgo then HackEso where you can use them with the \! command, but bfjoust would require a recent hill so I assume it wouldn't work
10:38:45 <wib_jonas> `! ztest +>++>-->+>-(>)*5((-)*128[-].++>(-)*128[-].-->)*11
10:38:47 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: line 4: /hackenv/ibin/ztest: No such file or directory
10:38:54 <wib_jonas> `! bfjoust +>++>-->+>-(>)*5((-)*128[-].++>(-)*128[-].-->)*11
10:38:56 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: line 4: /hackenv/ibin/bfjoust: No such file or directory
10:39:57 <HackEso> 1l \ 2l \ 7 \ adjust \ asm \ asmbf \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ brachylog \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ lua \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ slashes \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
10:40:13 <int-e> wib_jonas: it was actually zemhill which isn't listed in `prefixes`
10:41:03 <wib_jonas> int-e: what's the relationship of that to EgoBot?
10:41:50 <wib_jonas> ``` : "I'm asking because there's some bfjoust thing on HackEso: "; /bin/ls -aF /hackenv/interps/bfjoust
10:41:51 <HackEso> ./ \ ../ \ Makefile \ bfjoust* \ bfjoust.pl* \ buffer.h \ egojoust.c \ gearlance* \ gearlance.c \ gearlance.o \ helpers.h \ programs/ \ report* \ report.c \ report.o
10:41:54 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142800&oldid=142798 * Shriansh * (+590)
10:42:16 <int-e> wib_jonas: I guess it just took the then unused prefix
10:43:07 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142801&oldid=142800 * Shriansh * (+52) /* New Commands */
10:44:13 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142802&oldid=142801 * Shriansh * (+79) /* t */
10:45:08 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142803&oldid=142802 * Shriansh * (+55) /* Examples */
10:46:02 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142804&oldid=142803 * Shriansh * (+21) /* Language overview */
10:46:25 <wib_jonas> so there used to be a bfjoust on EgoBot, then zemhill took the same functionality?
10:47:14 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142805&oldid=142804 * Shriansh * (+96) /* New Commands */
10:47:17 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142806&oldid=142805 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Example signal s program to print A by User:Shriansh */
10:48:36 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142807&oldid=142806 * Shriansh * (+2) /* to write a formula for i */
10:49:05 <iddi01> according to the wiki, yes
10:49:43 <int-e> wib_jonas: apparently... https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2009-05-20.html#lIo
10:52:02 <int-e> vs. https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2014-09-18.html#lkg
10:52:10 <int-e> (renamed to zemhill one day later)
10:52:10 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log --removed -T '{join(files,"\n")}\n' -r 996 | grep -Ei '^interps/(z|.*joust)'
10:52:12 <HackEso> interps/bfjoust/Makefile \ interps/bfjoust/bfjoust \ interps/bfjoust/bfjoust.pl \ interps/bfjoust/buffer.h \ interps/bfjoust/egojoust.c \ interps/bfjoust/gearlance \ interps/bfjoust/gearlance.c \ interps/bfjoust/gearlance.o \ interps/bfjoust/helpers.h \ interps/bfjoust/programs/attack1.bfjoust \ interps/bfjoust/programs/defend1.bfjoust \ interps/bfjoust/programs/fool1.bfjoust \ interps/bfjoust/report \ interps/bfjoust/report.c \ interps/bfjoust/report.o
10:52:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142808&oldid=142720 * None1 * (+105)
10:53:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142809&oldid=117718 * Iddi01 * (+833) I don't get how [[BF Joust]] got abandoned at all
10:53:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142810&oldid=142808 * None1 * (+23)
10:53:58 <int-e> https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2020-02-23.html#lyc
10:54:17 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142811&oldid=142807 * Shriansh * (+11) /* s */
10:55:00 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142812&oldid=142811 * Shriansh * (+25) /* s */
10:55:17 <esolangs> [[Beforge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142813&oldid=142812 * Shriansh * (+9) /* s */
10:57:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142814&oldid=142809 * None1 * (+333) /* About BF Joust */
11:04:23 <fizzie> Nobody was doing any BF Joust so I didn't fix the bot when it broke, as all software eventually does.
11:05:21 <fizzie> Also the web page still says "#esoteric (on freenode)". :/
11:06:06 <iddi01> Well, i'm interested in bringing BF Joust back to life, since it's very interesting...
11:14:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142815&oldid=142814 * Iddi01 * (+276) /* About BF Joust */
11:14:57 <fizzie> I have a vague recollection that at some point I was idly working on a from-scratch rewrite of the IRC (and git repo) interfacing parts, maybe with the intention of re-homing/re-branding the whole thing under esolangs.org rather than zem.fi, but then... stopped.
11:15:38 <fizzie> Re-starting the current iteration would probably be much less of an effort.
11:17:35 <fizzie> IIRC, the main difficulty with it was basically that the parts outside the actual BF Joust interpreter are written in Ruby, using a linear algebra library ("gem") called "nmatrix" (or something along those lines) for computing some of the quirkier scoring, and building it used to make the dinky VPS it's running on run out of memory.
11:20:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142816&oldid=142815 * None1 * (+293) /* About BF Joust */
11:21:05 <wib_jonas> what the heck kind of crazy scoring system are you running that made the host run out of memory?
11:21:25 <fizzie> Not the *scoring*, building the linear algebra library as part of installing the gem.
11:21:37 <wib_jonas> ah, compiling. that makes more sense.
11:21:44 <fizzie> It's one of those C++ things, as I recall.
11:22:12 <fizzie> I worked around it with using distcc to compile it on a real computer while still running the Ruby gem install process on the target host.
11:22:28 <fizzie> I imagine there's also some way of just transporting the precompiled thing, but I don't really know Ruby tooling.
11:34:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142817&oldid=142816 * Fizzie * (+960) /* About BF Joust */ Current zem.fi status.
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12:52:15 <wib_jonas> oh, that reminds me. python 2.13.0 is officially released, I should download and install one
12:53:45 <JAA> Python 2 revival? :o
12:56:37 <wib_jonas> no, it's python 3.13.0. I'm getting confused with the version numbers and the architecture names.
12:57:03 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142818&oldid=142642 * Ractangle * (+498) /* Interpreter */
12:59:16 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142819&oldid=142818 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Interpreter */
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13:02:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tema5002 * New user account
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13:38:24 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142820&oldid=142103 * Unname4798 * (+358) new warsides
13:38:46 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142821&oldid=142820 * Unname4798 * (+9)
13:39:09 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142822&oldid=142821 * Unname4798 * (+10)
13:40:49 <esolangs> [[BIITI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142823 * DolphyWind * (+3655) Created page with "BIITI (Beauty Is In The Implementation) is an esoteric programming language created by DolphyWind. It is inspired by 8086 assembly and [[Forth]]. A typical BIITI program is simply a list of commands separated by the newline character, that gets executed on the BIITI vi
13:41:13 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142824&oldid=142822 * Unname4798 * (+11) increase the score of Tommyaweosme
13:42:50 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142825&oldid=142824 * Unname4798 * (+89)
13:44:15 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142826&oldid=142825 * Unname4798 * (+35)
13:44:40 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142827&oldid=142826 * Unname4798 * (+30)
13:49:19 <esolangs> [[JSFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142828&oldid=141245 * None1 * (+1381)
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13:51:35 <esolangs> [[JSFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142829&oldid=142828 * None1 * (+0) /* Shorten your JSFuck code */
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14:03:23 <esolangs> [[!/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142830&oldid=142725 * PrySigneToFry * (+2709)
14:03:44 <esolangs> [[!/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142831&oldid=142830 * PrySigneToFry * (-2)
14:04:20 <esolangs> [[!/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142832&oldid=142831 * PrySigneToFry * (+11)
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14:14:10 <fizzie> Oh, found the code for the incomplete BF Joust hill migration from zem.fi to esolangs.org. It was in a Git branch in the regular 'esolangs' repo.
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14:14:25 <fizzie> Looks like the idea was for the 'esolangs' bot to take care of the IRC side of things.
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14:15:13 <wib_jonas> isn't an irc line too short for some bfjoust candidate programs too?
14:15:47 <wib_jonas> I guess that's why there's a web form too, and the irc interface did get some use
14:16:30 <fizzie> The IRC interface also allowed you to put in an (HTTP) URL.
14:17:45 <fizzie> It would then read up to 2*1024*1024 bytes from that URL.
14:19:48 <fizzie> The incomplete rewrite was to be written in C++ (because that's what other esolangs.org custom infra is), and to use libgit2 to deal with the hill repository, instead of calling the git binary (the way the zem.fi hill did).
14:27:32 <wib_jonas> C++ makes sense because it's easy to either compile inside HackEso or cross-compile
14:28:09 <wib_jonas> uh, I mean compile outside and upload, technically not necessarily cross-compile
14:28:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142833&oldid=142742 * Tema5002 * (+151) yes
14:29:07 <esolangs> [[T^]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142834 * Tema5002 * (+7554) my dog is a cat
14:33:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tema5002 * uploaded "[[File:TGlyph-Logo.png]]": Logo for T^ https://esolangs.org/wiki/T%5E
14:34:33 <fizzie> It also seems to have substituted Eigen (the C++ linear algebra template library) for the math stuff.
14:36:20 <esolangs> [[T^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142836&oldid=142834 * Tema5002 * (+58) added logo
14:39:18 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Abbr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142837 * PrySigneToFry * (+410) Created page with "All my abbreviations are bookmarked here. # PSTF: Myself. # MHPP: Mihai Popa([[User:MihaiEso]]). # N1: None1([[User:None1]]). # ': And. # yr: Your. # y'r: You're. # s'm: Some. # zh-cn: Simplified Chinese. # zh-lit: Classical Chinese. # zh-tw: Tradi
14:39:45 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142838&oldid=142467 * PrySigneToFry * (+30)
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14:41:06 <esolangs> [[File:TGlyph-Logo.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142839&oldid=142835 * Tema5002 * (+4) indent
14:41:47 <esolangs> [[User:Tema5002]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142840 * Tema5002 * (+44) Created page with "my name is mr beast my mind is full of yeast"
14:44:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tema5002]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142841 * Tema5002 * (+318) Created page with " "
14:45:15 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142842&oldid=141843 * PrySigneToFry * (+165)
14:46:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File: Hello, world!.png]]"
14:48:17 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142844&oldid=140134 * PrySigneToFry * (+76)
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15:17:56 <esolangs> [[User:Flandre-chan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142845&oldid=129875 * Flandre-chan * (+6)
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15:42:27 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142848&oldid=142819 * Ractangle * (-61) /* Hello, world! */
15:42:59 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142849&oldid=139861 * Ractangle * (-61) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
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17:03:24 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142850&oldid=142848 * Ractangle * (-55) /* Disan Count (kinda) */
17:03:37 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142851&oldid=142850 * Ractangle * (-20) /* Disan Count (kinda) */
17:04:50 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142852&oldid=142851 * Ractangle * (+83) /* Syntax */
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17:27:44 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142853&oldid=138842 * Aadenboy * (+78) add trampolines
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17:56:13 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142854&oldid=142852 * Ractangle * (-106) /* Truth-machine */
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18:13:53 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142855&oldid=142854 * Ractangle * (-30) /* A+B Problem */
18:15:30 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142856&oldid=142855 * Ractangle * (+54) /* computational class */
18:28:04 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142857&oldid=142856 * Ractangle * (+36)
18:28:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:HDYFTBlogo.png]]"
18:29:05 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142859&oldid=142857 * Ractangle * (+21)
18:29:18 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142860&oldid=142859 * Ractangle * (-1)
18:29:36 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142861&oldid=142860 * Ractangle * (+5)
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18:39:47 <esolangs> [[BIITI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142862&oldid=142823 * DolphyWind * (+566)
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20:20:05 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142863&oldid=141363 * Ractangle * (-29) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
20:22:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xmgismissing * New user account
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20:26:44 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142864&oldid=142861 * Ractangle * (+171) /* Interpreter */
20:27:09 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142865&oldid=142864 * Ractangle * (-54) /* computational class */
20:34:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142866&oldid=142833 * Ractangle * (+102)
20:37:14 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142867&oldid=142865 * Ractangle * (+50)
20:38:07 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142868&oldid=142867 * Ractangle * (-4)
20:44:48 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142869&oldid=142868 * Ractangle * (+63) /* Interpreter */
20:46:29 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142870&oldid=142869 * Ractangle * (+105) /* Syntax */
20:46:43 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142871&oldid=142870 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Syntax */
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21:23:08 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142872&oldid=142760 * Aadenboy * (-27) skew
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23:30:38 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142873&oldid=142783 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+51)
23:32:55 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142874&oldid=142873 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+72) /* Operations */
23:41:29 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142875&oldid=142874 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+15)
23:42:16 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142876&oldid=142875 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+79) /* Examples */
23:43:09 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142877&oldid=142876 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+74) /* Commands */
23:44:34 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142878&oldid=142877 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+67) /* Truth-machine */
23:44:51 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142879&oldid=142878 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+242)
23:45:00 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142880&oldid=142879 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-157)
23:45:14 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142881&oldid=142762 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+12)
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23:48:08 <esolangs> [[User:PSTF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142882 * ZCX islptng * (+32) Redirected page to [[User:PrySigneToFry]]
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23:55:07 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Discussion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142883&oldid=136942 * ZCX islptng * (+184)
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01:26:17 <esolangs> [[Aarkinitio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142884&oldid=135559 * RainbowDash * (+0)
01:50:26 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142885&oldid=142066 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+38) /* Modulo */
01:51:18 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142886&oldid=142885 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+32) /* XKCD Random Number */
01:59:10 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142887&oldid=142763 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+91) /* Programs */
02:00:51 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142888&oldid=142886 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+240)
02:01:26 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142889&oldid=142888 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+22)
02:02:04 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142890&oldid=142889 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-48)
02:02:37 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142891&oldid=142890 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-27)
02:03:27 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142892&oldid=142891 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+25)
02:03:33 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142893&oldid=142892 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+3)
02:03:42 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142894&oldid=142893 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1)
02:03:48 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142895&oldid=142894 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1)
02:05:49 <esolangs> [[5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142896&oldid=142064 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-2) /* Loops */
02:06:19 <esolangs> [[5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142897&oldid=142896 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* Loops */
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02:35:31 <korvo> Finally got around to buying domains. The Busy Beaver Gauge is now at https://bbgauge.info/
03:08:18 <esolangs> [[Disord]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142898&oldid=142794 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/142794|142794]] by [[Special:Contributions/Iddi01|Iddi01]] ([[User talk:Iddi01|talk]]): see fizzie's comment at [[Talk:Macron]]
03:10:49 <esolangs> [[Unique]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142899&oldid=142880 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) Categories
03:14:10 <esolangs> [[BIITI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142900&oldid=142862 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) Class, categories
03:19:25 <esolangs> [[T^]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142901&oldid=142836 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+121) Categories
03:22:02 <esolangs> [[Category:Compressed Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142902&oldid=118922 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) Formatting, category
03:34:47 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142903&oldid=138328 * Corbin * (+35) Technically, this algebra incorporates run-length encoding, so let's categorize it as a compression scheme.
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08:45:16 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142904&oldid=142871 * Ractangle * (+15)
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09:10:46 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142905 * ZCX islptng * (+58) Created page with "== My esolangs == * [[SLet]] [[User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox]]"
09:11:36 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142906&oldid=142905 * ZCX islptng * (+63)
09:20:12 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142907 * ZCX islptng * (+1836) Created page with "<big><big><big> Remember this is only a sandbox! Not a language page. </big></big></big> This esolang is unnamed. It's a stack-based binary language.<br> Yes, Binary. The program consists of 0s and 1s. And the stack is too.<br> Each bit is an inst
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10:22:06 <esolangs> [[T^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142908&oldid=142901 * Tema5002 * (+20) i eat sand
10:25:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * New user account
10:29:10 <esolangs> [[T^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142909&oldid=142908 * Tema5002 * (-20) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/142908|142908]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tema5002|Tema5002]] ([[User talk:Tema5002|talk]])
10:31:04 <esolangs> [[T^]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142910&oldid=142909 * Tema5002 * (+19)
10:39:54 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142911&oldid=141848 * Ractangle * (+0)
10:41:22 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142912&oldid=142911 * Ractangle * (+22)
10:43:46 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142913&oldid=142546 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Esolangs */
10:44:05 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142914&oldid=142913 * Ractangle * (-63) /* Esolangs */
10:45:17 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142915&oldid=138949 * Ractangle * (+17)
10:45:33 <esolangs> [[BIITI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142916&oldid=142900 * DolphyWind * (+1)
10:49:43 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142917&oldid=142895 * Ractangle * (-4)
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10:58:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142918&oldid=142866 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+452)
10:59:48 <esolangs> [[: ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142919&oldid=142614 * Ractangle * (+128) /* Syntax */
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11:33:33 <fizzie> Hrm. Tried to start the zemhill bot again (turns out now that the VPS has a gig of RAM, nmatrix actually builds locally fine), but it immediately segfaults on startup: https://0x0.st/XEhI.txt
11:34:53 <fizzie> The latest nmatrix version published is 0.2.4 from Dec 2017, for Ruby ">= 1.9", and the system now has 3.1.2p20, so I imagine it's just bork.
11:35:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142920&oldid=142746 * DolphyWind * (+26) Add Electra and BIITI
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11:47:50 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142921&oldid=142842 * PrySigneToFry * (-5)
11:49:03 <esolangs> [[Permission denied]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142922&oldid=135570 * PrySigneToFry * (+47)
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11:52:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142923 * PrySigneToFry * (+688) /* */ new section
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11:53:50 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142924&oldid=142904 * Ractangle * (-5) /* A+B Problem */
11:54:11 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142925&oldid=142907 * PrySigneToFry * (+34) Named your Language!
11:55:09 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142926&oldid=142924 * Ractangle * (-2) /* A+B Problem */
11:55:29 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142927&oldid=142863 * Ractangle * (-7) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
11:58:21 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142928&oldid=142186 * PrySigneToFry * (+279)
11:58:37 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142929&oldid=142928 * PrySigneToFry * (-2)
12:02:28 <esolangs> [[/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142930&oldid=134381 * PrySigneToFry * (+173)
12:03:24 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142931&oldid=142089 * PrySigneToFry * (-2)
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12:36:39 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142932&oldid=142929 * Unname4798 * (+153)
12:37:54 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142933&oldid=142932 * Unname4798 * (+0)
12:38:41 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142934&oldid=142933 * Unname4798 * (+18)
12:39:07 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142935&oldid=142934 * Unname4798 * (-5)
12:51:23 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142936&oldid=137768 * Tema5002 * (+48) added T^
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12:56:38 <esolangs> [[Hashell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142937&oldid=142769 * Yayimhere * (+578) /* the subset */
12:57:10 <wWwwW> i made this and i want feedback: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hashell#the_subset
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13:26:04 <esolangs> [[Hashell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142938&oldid=142937 * Yayimhere * (+57)
13:28:40 <esolangs> [[Hashell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142939&oldid=142938 * Yayimhere * (+55) /* operators */
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13:54:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142940&oldid=142923 * None1 * (+329) /* */
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13:57:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142941&oldid=142761 * None1 * (+398) /* Make Poetic (Mihai Popa) with more examples! */
14:01:32 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142942&oldid=142439 * None1 * (+109) /* Other examples */
14:02:12 <esolangs> [[Poetic (Mihai Popa)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142943&oldid=142942 * None1 * (+4) /* Infinite loop */
14:18:05 <fizzie> Swapped 'nmatrix' for 'numo-narray' (similar enough API, and that one seemed more widely used, if not particularly actively maintained), but now it fails with "no implicit conversion of Hash into String (TypeError)" in the IRC bot library (cinch), which *also* hasn't had a new release since 2017.
14:18:31 <fizzie> And replacing _that_ would probably be more involved, since there's more code related to the IRC bits than there are for doing the scoring.
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15:08:48 <wib_jonas> fizzie: you could consider adding some method to HackEso where the guest can communicate a few restricted API calls with a service running on the host, such as through a shared local network interface or something. then in theory you can add an API call to test or submit a program to the bfjoust hill.
15:09:16 <wib_jonas> you already have something handling the IRC side of HackEso
15:23:01 <fizzie> I guess. Though the web submission form is also currently broken, I believe; and it also doesn't allow passing in the IRC nickname of the person submitting the program.
15:23:05 <fizzie> It does seem like there was less IRC-related code that I thought, it's all centralized in a single file of ~120 lines, so if I can pick a suitably simple-to-use but still maintained Ruby IRC bot framework, it might not be that much to port it over.
15:26:25 <wib_jonas> there's the problem that you mentioned last time that bfjoust test/submission allows passing a URL, so obviously that wouldn't work so easily in HackEso
15:26:37 <wib_jonas> but users can fetch and then submit separately
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15:33:03 <wib_jonas> if the web form were working then we could add a command to submit to it from perlbot, filling in the irc nickname automatically.
15:33:29 <wib_jonas> I think perlbot is only willing do send GET queries, not POST, so actual submission might not work well this way, only testing
15:33:58 <wib_jonas> we can make perlbot parse the important part of the reply from the webserver and say it on IRC
15:37:22 <wib_jonas> and while we're there, I should think about what other web services accessible through GET there are that I should write perlbot macros for
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15:38:06 <wib_jonas> I mean related to the esolangs community especially
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15:40:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142944&oldid=142453 * Yayimhere * (+15) /* logo plz! maybe? */
15:40:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142945&oldid=142944 * Yayimhere * (+9) /* logo plz! maybe? */
15:41:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142946&oldid=142945 * Yayimhere * (+87) /* logo plz! maybe? */
15:43:19 <fizzie> Well, the thing is, the current web endpoint doesn't support setting the nickname, it's always `web`. I think the idea was, having a specific nickname in IRC on channel is a (weak) proof of identity.
15:44:46 <fizzie> I fixed the issues with the IRC framework, but it can't connect to Libera because "Notice -- SASL authentication to a NickServ account with a verified email address is req...".
15:45:36 <fizzie> I think that's what Libera.Chat does for DigitalOcean IPs due to issues, or something along those lines.
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15:49:58 <fizzie> (It can do SASL, I just don't have an account for zemhill registered, and I don't know if I should because I don't know if I will keep it around; I definitely don't want it authenticating as myself though.)
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15:51:10 <fizzie> Maybe I'll temporarily connect it as HackEso, that seems reasonable enough.
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15:53:41 <zemhill> fizzie.bad: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
15:54:00 <fizzie> Well, it may or may not work "for reals".
15:55:03 <fizzie> Looks like the web form also started working (well, insofar as doing a test submission with < goes) as a result of starting the bot back up. (Since it's what the web form communicates with, over a Unix domain socket.)
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15:59:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142947&oldid=142817 * Fizzie * (+437) /* About BF Joust */ Another zem.fi hill update.
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16:23:44 <esolangs> [[BF Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142948&oldid=139043 * Fizzie * (-528) /* Competitive hills */ Remove most things about egojoust (long defunct), update IRC details.
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18:20:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: does the web endpoint support giving a program name? if so we can just abuse that to put the irc nick in there too
18:22:16 <b_jonas> and if it's an old unmaintained IRC library barely ported over to a later IRC version then I'd say don't connect it to HackEso's account, because that sounds very much like how these security bugs are born.
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18:43:45 <b_jonas> ah, it's not that simple: "Program name is restricted to characters in [a-zA-Z0-9_-], sorry." so we have to escape the irc nickname; and more importantly this form uses some javascript that sends a POST request
18:44:06 <b_jonas> (probably worth one test in case it accepts a GET requests with GET arguments of course)
18:48:32 <b_jonas> oh, it does seem to accept a get request
19:04:04 <fizzie> It does accept a program name, and in fact that's probably what happened with `web.shig_eyeless_joustee` and `web.shig_this_is_hard`, where I think `shig` is a name.
19:04:40 <fizzie> The handler may or may not accept a GET request, not sure.
19:05:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: it accepts a GET request, and I could submit one from buubot, I'm trying to make a buubot macro for this now
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19:29:23 <b_jonas> fact ztest inscribed-marker-limit (>(+.+.+..+.-+.)*40>(+.+.+.+.+.)*34)*29(+.)*999
19:29:30 <b_jonas> perlbot ztest inscribed-marker-limit (>(+.+.+..+.-+.)*40>(+.+.+.+.+.)*34)*29(+.)*999
19:29:31 <perlbot> b_jonas: {"result":"ok","message":"web.b_jonas-inscribed-marker-limit: points -26.71, score 5.53, rank 47/47\n"}
19:29:41 <perlbot> b_jonas: {"result":"ok","message":"web.b_jonas-worst: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47\n"}
19:29:52 <perlbot> b_jonas: <*:##NULL> func ztest is `get `eval use URI; $d=URI->new("http://zem.fi/bfjoust/cgi/submit.cgi"); $d->query_form(prog=>substr("`arg c&n'-`arg c1'"=~s/[^0-9A-Za-z-_]|X/sprintf"X%02X",ord($&)/ger,0,40), code=>`arg d-1', submit=>"no"); $d->as_string' //body'
19:31:27 <b_jonas> perlbot zjoust blueberry-citizen-remove (>[+])*99
19:31:29 <zemhill> web.b_jonas-blueberry-citizen-remove: points -21.50, score 6.35, rank 47/47
19:31:29 <perlbot> b_jonas: {"result":"ok","message":"web.b_jonas-blueberry-citizen-remove: points -21.50, score 6.35, rank 47/47\n"}
19:32:38 <b_jonas> this only accepts a literal program that fits in the IRC line together with the name
19:36:17 <esolangs> [[BF Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142949&oldid=142948 * B jonas * (+354) /* Competitive hills */ perlbot kluge
19:37:00 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142950&oldid=142926 * Ractangle * (-59) /* Syntax */
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19:37:39 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142951&oldid=142950 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Move data from a cell to an another cell */
19:38:38 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142952&oldid=142951 * Ractangle * (-63) /* Interpreter */
19:39:43 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142953&oldid=142912 * Ractangle * (+12)
19:42:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Ractangle * uploaded "[[File:Ractangle.png]]"
19:43:39 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142955&oldid=142914 * Ractangle * (+51)
19:46:35 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142956&oldid=142955 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Esolangs */
19:47:12 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142957&oldid=142956 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Esolangs */
19:49:04 <b_jonas> there's the slight problem that nicks can be up to 16 bytes long, and I am escaping the nick in a way that potentially triples its length, but the maximum length for a program name in zemhill is 40 bytes, but I'll ignore that for now. if that bothers you then you can modify these macros to use a more efficient encoding scheme
19:50:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142958&oldid=141413 * Ractangle * (+212) /* can somebody explain why cant i make DISPLAYTITLE work properly */
19:50:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142959&oldid=142958 * Ractangle * (+4) /* can somebody explain why cant i make DISPLAYTITLE work properly */
19:51:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142960&oldid=142959 * Ractangle * (-319) /* i think i need a help */
19:54:58 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142961&oldid=141219 * Ractangle * (+156) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
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19:56:58 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142962&oldid=142961 * Ractangle * (+7) /* 8ial */
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20:20:48 <zzo38> I think that International Domain Name is not designed very good. I have another way to make it up: The character code is made into books and pages, and uses the same character codes for uppercase vs lowercase, etc. Each part of a domain name is limited to a single book or ASCII (not both); it is not possible to encode (even with invalid encodings) multiple books at once.
20:21:32 <zzo38> Furthermore, if all characters in one part are homoglyphs of ASCII characters, then the correct encoding is the corresponding ASCII characters; encoding them as IDN is considered to be an invalid encoding.
20:22:10 <zzo38> (There are some things that I don't know how to handle properly, such as characters that are homoglyphs only in some circumstances but not in others.)
20:25:10 <zzo38> Each book and page may also specify mappings to TRON code and/or other character sets, but they are considered their own character sets, not TRON code and others.
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20:33:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142963&oldid=142957 * Ractangle * (+342) /* Esolangs */
20:34:50 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142964&oldid=142963 * Ractangle * (+370) /* Esolangs */
20:35:12 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142965&oldid=142964 * Ractangle * (-343) /* Programm forms */
20:39:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142966&oldid=142965 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Programm forms */
20:43:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Ractangle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:My github profile read me.png]]"
20:47:48 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142968&oldid=142920 * Ractangle * (-11) /* A */
20:48:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[AREA]] to [[Till thirty first]]
20:49:20 <esolangs> [[V++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142971&oldid=97042 * VMGP2 * (+3)
20:50:08 <esolangs> [[Till thirty first]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142972&oldid=142969 * Ractangle * (-45)
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21:11:30 <esolangs> [[Till thirty first]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142973&oldid=142972 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Categories
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22:08:09 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142974&oldid=142968 * Ractangle * (+19) /* Non-alphabetic */
22:38:35 <zemhill> web.ais523_stealth4: points 2.88, score 23.80, rank 14/47
22:45:27 <zemhill> web.ais523_stealth4: points 3.00, score 23.92, rank 14/47 (--)
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23:00:57 <zemhill> web.ais523_stealth4: points 5.52, score 26.91, rank 12/47 (+2)
23:13:35 <zemhill> web.ais523_stealth4: points 7.88, score 29.79, rank 8/47 (+4)
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23:21:38 <zemhill> web.ais523_stealth4: points 7.93, score 29.86, rank 7/47 (+1)
23:26:41 <zemhill> web.ais523_stealth4: points 8.52, score 30.65, rank 7/47 (--)
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23:31:30 <zemhill> web.ais523_stealth4: points 9.74, score 32.46, rank 6/47 (+1)
23:35:14 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142975&oldid=140620 * Tommyaweosme * (+184)
23:36:03 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142976&oldid=142975 * Tommyaweosme * (-184) Blanked the page
23:36:42 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142977 * MihaiEso * (+9308) Created page with "'''FLOLCODE''' ('''F'''ormal '''LOLCODE''') is a esolang by Mihai Popa. It's a formal version of LOLCODE. After seeing that LOLCODE is weird, I made this. == Keywords == These are the main keywords. All FLOLCODE keywords can be written in uppercase, lowercase or mixe
23:37:11 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142978&oldid=142000 * MihaiEso * (+36)
23:37:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142979&oldid=142974 * MihaiEso * (+15) /* F */
23:39:03 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142980&oldid=142977 * MihaiEso * (+1)
23:39:29 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142981&oldid=142980 * MihaiEso * (-1)
23:42:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142982&oldid=142941 * MihaiEso * (+116) /* Help contributing/translating/administrating Funcode? */
23:45:01 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142983&oldid=142981 * MihaiEso * (+4) Link
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00:06:34 <zemhill> web.ais523_stealth4: points 10.07, score 33.06, rank 5/47 (+1)
00:12:54 <korvo> I wonder what's being computed. I hope it's a ray tracer making a beautiful video.
00:19:58 <int-e> if you're wondering about zemhill, see https://zem.fi/bfjoust/
00:20:28 <int-e> fizzie resurrected the bot... today I think. well, yesterday for me.
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01:02:31 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142984&oldid=142983 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Category
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01:03:37 <esolangs> [[LOLCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142985&oldid=134041 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) Categories
02:59:59 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142986&oldid=142785 * ZCX islptng * (+3941) changed the quine, now it's correct
03:02:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142987&oldid=142940 * ZCX islptng * (+173)
03:09:12 <esolangs> [[V++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142988&oldid=142971 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Wayback
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04:32:23 <korvo> int-e, fizzie: Cool, thanks.
04:32:48 <korvo> Probably not a good sign that I've reacted by sketching wave equations for the tape.
04:47:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * New user account
04:48:55 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142989&oldid=142635 * Yayimhere * (+12) /* esolangs */
04:49:16 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142990&oldid=142989 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* esolangs */
04:57:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142991&oldid=142918 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+333)
04:57:45 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142992 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+37) Created page with "[[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/p (Cole)]]"
04:58:12 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142993&oldid=142992 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+7)
05:00:14 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142994 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+41) Created page with "Alphabet <code> p ' 0 1 + ( ) </code>"
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05:15:26 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142995&oldid=142994 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+1281) New page (yay)
05:15:58 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142996&oldid=142793 * MihaiEso * (+1053)
05:17:18 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142997&oldid=142995 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (-17)
05:18:14 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142998&oldid=142997 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (-13)
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05:22:24 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142999&oldid=142998 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+125)
05:22:39 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai again7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143000 * MihaiEso * (+1897) Created page with "The future for [[Translated_ORK/None1_Again7]]: 1. Take crappy source: <pre> 2? It is the celebration of high priests and funeral. 2? Zanguang Zhang & lt; 2? Zanguang Zhang First, I was a strange graduate. Zanguang Zhang </pre> 2. Translate: Baid
05:22:53 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai again7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143001&oldid=143000 * MihaiEso * (+0)
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05:25:14 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143002&oldid=142702 * MihaiEso * (+122) /* Horribly translated variants */
05:25:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * MihaiEso * moved [[Translated ORK/Mihai again7]] to [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again7]]: Misspelled title
05:26:10 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143005&oldid=143002 * MihaiEso * (+0) /* Horribly translated variants */
05:26:21 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143006&oldid=142996 * MihaiEso * (+0) /* Contrast */
05:28:56 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143007&oldid=142999 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+312)
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05:30:12 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143008&oldid=143007 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+176) /* All possible small programs */
05:30:53 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143009&oldid=143008 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+0) /* All possible small programs */
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06:29:50 <esolangs> [[Hashell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143010&oldid=142939 * Yayimhere * (+192) /* operators */
06:39:30 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143011&oldid=142925 * ZCX islptng * (+77) uhhhhhhhh
06:40:52 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143012&oldid=143011 * ZCX islptng * (+13)
06:44:46 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143013&oldid=142906 * ZCX islptng * (+212)
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06:50:11 <korvo> !ztest gauss3 (-----+++----+++++---++++)*5050
06:50:11 <zemhill> korvo.gauss3: points -17.83, score 8.19, rank 47/47
06:56:03 <korvo> !ztest gauss_pair (>+++--++---+++--++---<-----+++----+++++---++++)*2632
06:56:04 <zemhill> korvo.gauss_pair: points -27.33, score 4.59, rank 47/47
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07:08:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:ZCX islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143014&oldid=142987 * ZCX islptng * (-173)
07:12:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143015&oldid=142094 * ZCX islptng * (+185)
07:26:12 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143016&oldid=142966 * Ractangle * (+75) /* Programm forms */
07:26:42 <b_jonas> `addwhatis ztest(1perlbot) compute performance of a bfjoust program against current hill without adding it to the hill
07:26:44 <HackEso> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/addwhatis", line 21, in <module> \ procnew(arg) \ File "/hackenv/bin/addwhatis", line 17, in procnew \ print("addwhatis: cannot parse input as whatis line or whatis key: %r" % (line,), file = sys.stderr) \ NameError: name 'line' is not defined
07:27:14 <b_jonas> `addwhatis ztest(1perlbot) - compute performance of a bfjoust program against current hill without adding it to the hill
07:27:17 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'ztest(1perlbot)'
07:27:39 <b_jonas> `addwhatis zjoust(1perlbot) - add bfjoust program to current hill
07:27:42 <HackEso> addwhatis: added 'zjoust(1perlbot)'
07:27:56 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
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07:38:58 <korvo> Huh, my initial theories about defensive plays are not panning out. gauss3 should not do so well compared to gauss3 + some sort of attack. (Not that gauss3 is good.)
07:40:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143017&oldid=142666 * B jonas * (+9)
07:40:59 <esolangs> [[Zemhill]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143018 * B jonas * (+22) Redirected page to [[BF Joust]]
08:21:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pointless * New user account
08:24:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Ractangle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:The dark reader at home.jpg]]"
08:24:48 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143020&oldid=142993 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+113)
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08:30:54 <esolangs> [[Till thirty first]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143021&oldid=142973 * Ractangle * (+15)
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08:41:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143022&oldid=142991 * Pointless * (+303) /* Introductions */
08:41:43 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143023 * Pointless * (+11970) Created page with "'''Fysh''' is an esoteric programming language that embraces creativity and a playful aquatic theme. It uses fish-related symbols and terms to represent programming concepts, making coding a fun and engaging experience. ==Introduction== '''Fysh''' brings a whimsical t
08:46:22 <zemhill> web.test1: points -14.00, score 11.42, rank 47/47
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09:30:02 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143024&oldid=143016 * Ractangle * (-24)
09:30:50 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143025&oldid=143024 * Ractangle * (+24)
09:34:52 <fizzie> One of the things I vaguely recall people said about the existing hill is that it's too competitive, it's hard to rank better than 47/47 unless you're already good at the game.
09:35:24 <fizzie> (Not sure if that's true or not, never gotten into BF Joust beyond the implementation side of things.)
09:35:52 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143026&oldid=143023 * MihaiEso * (-20) /* Option 2: Using Command Line */
09:37:20 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143027&oldid=143026 * MihaiEso * (+59) /* */
09:44:06 <esolangs> [[OCA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143028&oldid=142518 * Iddi01 * (-2043) Way too personal and jokey, it probably already misleads lots of people who had visited this page from recent changes. Too bad i cannot fix things at conwaylife.com due to being decidedly inactive there. (Also, why Languages? The [[CA]] page is categorized Computational models.)
09:47:14 <korvo> I believe it. But also, my existing intuition on BF doesn't help here. In particular, concurrent loop semantics are very different from the standard semantics.
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10:02:33 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143029&oldid=142984 * MihaiEso * (+0) /* Functions */
10:03:12 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143030&oldid=143029 * MihaiEso * (+1) /* Keywords */
10:04:03 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143031&oldid=143030 * MihaiEso * (-1) /* Numerical types */
10:08:25 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143032&oldid=143027 * Pointless * (+4117)
10:08:45 <esolangs> [[Fuckscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143033&oldid=126493 * MihaiEso * (-2) /* Implementation */ Actually implemented.
10:10:10 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143034&oldid=143032 * Pointless * (+25) /* Optional Visuals */
10:10:44 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143035&oldid=143034 * MihaiEso * (+66) Someone deleted the categories, so I restored it.
10:10:45 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143036&oldid=143035 * Pointless * (-6) /* Increment */
10:11:01 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143037&oldid=143036 * Pointless * (-2) /* Integers */
10:11:25 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143038&oldid=143037 * Pointless * (-3) /* Arrays and Traversal */
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10:11:50 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143040&oldid=143038 * Pointless * (-3) /* Logical Shift Operations */
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10:13:53 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143042&oldid=143041 * Pointless * (-6) /* if Statements: The Happy Fysh > */
10:14:39 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143043&oldid=143042 * Pointless * (-13) /* Conditional Statements */
10:19:47 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143044&oldid=143043 * Pointless * (+4) added spacing between chapters
10:24:13 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143045&oldid=143044 * Pointless * (+124)
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10:53:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143047&oldid=143046 * None1 * (+286) /* Help contributing/translating/administrating Funcode? */
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11:11:03 <ais523> korvo: there are some programs which attempt to skip over enemy decoys, so if you make no changes to the tape other than to your flag, you get free wins against them
11:11:56 <ais523> but, most top programs are designed to beat, in one way or another, programs that don't attack at all – those are typically easy to detect, so you can use a customized algorithm when you realise the opponent is acting like that
11:13:16 <ais523> anyway, I took this opportunity to actually analyse what Sookie is doing, it's an entirely new tactic that originally looks ridiculous, but I now understand why it works
11:15:55 <korvo> ais523: From studying the dynamics in terms of mechanics, I'm noticing that there's no nemeses, even adaptively.
11:16:45 <korvo> Mostly this is because observation is very weak. Like, all that can be observed is whether a cell is zero, the only choice for the observer is polarity, and the answer is always yes but with a time delay. And the delay's not measurable either.
11:17:34 <ais523> there are some programs that do a substantial amount of observation, e.g. anticipation2 (which does work by measuring the delay)
11:18:29 <korvo> Oh, yeah, of course. They're looking for indirect evidence of their opponent.
11:18:32 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143048&oldid=143045 * None1 * (+0) /* Decrement */ Not*, but-
11:19:41 <ais523> several programs intentionally work by setting a cell to a nonzero value, then waiting there until it becomes zero
11:21:01 <korvo> Yeah. So, like, what I was doing earlier was considering each jouster as a particle and the tape as a field. I had been trying to simplify the whole polarity situation.
11:21:23 <ais523> although not all of them do anything with the timing information (I think anticipation2 and smartlock do – and waterfall3 used to, although it's fallen off the hill now
11:23:48 <korvo> Sure. But it's all measured based on assumptions about access patterns, right?
11:25:02 <ais523> no – it's based on the win condition
11:25:05 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143049&oldid=143048 * None1 * (+22) /* External Resources */
11:25:16 <ais523> to win you have to hold the opponent's flag at zero for two cycles before moving on
11:25:47 <ais523> so, as long as the opponent doesn't make a risky skip of your tripwire cell, you can just wait until it's at zero for two cycles, because you know the opponent has to do that at some point
11:26:10 <korvo> But you only know that the opponent *was* at the tripwire.
11:26:27 <ais523> oh, you don't know they're going to move to the right after clearing it, indeed
11:26:41 <ais523> but, you also don't really care
11:26:47 <ais523> !zjoust simple_rush (>)*5+++(<(+)*40)*4(>)*7(>[(+)*5[-]])*21
11:26:47 <zemhill> ais523.simple_rush: points -9.02, score 12.91, rank 42/47
11:28:11 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143050&oldid=143049 * None1 * (+45)
11:28:20 <ais523> it is possible to get *somewhere* on the board just by following what have become established BF Joust fundamentals – do something to avoid losing to pokes, set up decoys, and clear
11:28:33 <korvo> Well, maybe not in the current meta. But how do we know that we haven't overlooked some extremely clever and easy strategy?
11:29:01 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143051&oldid=141375 * None1 * (+31)
11:29:13 <ais523> Sookie might be an example of that – we thought BF Joust was solved a few years ago, but it specifically beats the strategy that we thought solved it
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11:35:10 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143052&oldid=143050 * None1 * (+29) /* External Resources */ TC (easy to implement brainfuck)
11:35:24 <korvo> I don't feel like the current strategies describe a solved game, but maybe I've not thought about it enough.
11:36:57 <korvo> I was thinking in terms of physics. The jousters are particles, the cells are orientations on a unit circle, the tests are observations. The goal was to understand what a board position is like from the epistemic POV of a jouster.
11:40:13 <korvo> And like yeah, there's a basic wave function that we can set up, but it's useless. I think it's not possible for a jouster to observe enough about their opponent to always provide a perfect counterplay; there's no adaptive nemesis.
11:40:45 <korvo> And I also can't see a static pattern which doesn't need knowledge of the opponent, so I think that there's no static nemesis either. Just my opinion of course, but it'd be surprising, right?
11:40:56 <ais523> well, it is usually possible to counter-build against a specific program if you want to beat that program in particular
11:41:12 <ais523> e.g. by recognising the decoy setup
11:41:48 <ais523> that has been done a few times in the past to bump programs up from a 98%ish winrate to a 100% winrate (where a "win" here = winning more than half the individual tape length / polarity combinations)
11:44:12 <ais523> anyway, I feel like the current state of BF Joust strategy is that there is a basic standard strategy that is generically good, plus a number of less normal strategies that it is possible to take countermeasures against individually, but will beat you if you don't take those countermeasures
11:45:18 <fizzie> As I recall there were also some attempts at auto-generating programs genetic programming style, evaluated for fitness against the then-current hill.
11:45:35 <korvo> Yeah. My perspective is that current strategies are special cases which bump out because of discreteness and the law of small numbers. They're not bad but they're not indicative of the general solution.
11:45:47 <ais523> the less normal strategies are a) traditional lock-based defence, b) vibration, c) shudder, d) triplocking, e) very fast rush
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11:46:18 <ais523> then, there are probabilistic locks which were created to beat the standard strategy, and those are interesting because it isn't clear how to special-case against those, and traditional locks, at the same time
11:46:59 <ais523> one of the interesting parts of writing an attack loop is that you can usually reliably figure out that the opponent is doing *something* to defend against you, but not what specific defence technique they're using
11:47:27 <wWwwW> isnt haskell `\_.` TC?
11:47:47 <ais523> wWwwW: no, Haskell is statically typed
11:48:22 <korvo> You need some sort of recursion in the names. For Haskell, that comes from `let`, `where`, or top-level bindings.
11:48:47 <wWwwW> also isnt . as a lambda expression just...B from BCKW?
11:48:50 <ais523> wWwwW: untyped lambda calculus is TC, but simply typed lambda calculus isn't on its own
11:48:53 <korvo> The simply-typeable fragments of a calculus aren't going to yield a TC system. This is, in a certain sense, one of the reasons to *have* simple typing.
11:49:15 <ais523> wWwwW: oh, you would need parentheses to make that work
11:49:26 <ais523> also you need -> to even be able to write a syntactically correct lambda
11:50:09 <korvo> And yes, Haskell (.) is the B combinator (or maybe its flip?)
11:50:38 <wWwwW> for f(.)g = f (g x)
11:50:43 <wWwwW> where x is the funciton input
11:51:44 <ais523> I think \_.()-> still has no way to write a fix
11:51:53 <korvo> ais523: So, like, it's hopefully obvious that a wavefunction approach can generalize probabalistic locks? It just does so in a pessimistic way; clearly we learn nothing about how to defeat them.
11:51:59 <ais523> also, a while back oerjan told me that SKI+fix is not TC in a simply typed lambda calculus
11:52:13 <ais523> wWwwW: like the lambda calculus version of a loop
11:52:30 <wWwwW> what if you also have = and variable names
11:52:37 <korvo> wWwwW: Maybe it's time to pause and understand what TC, recursion, access to names, and fixed-point combinators all *do*. They have something in common.
11:52:51 <wWwwW> ik what recusion does
11:53:18 <korvo> Okay. Do you see why simply-typed calculi don't "loop"?
11:53:40 <ais523> korvo: so probabilistic locks want to avoid "rerolling" the probability, if they have a lock they don't want to give the other program the opportunity to escape, which means that they want to put the gaps in a consistent place in their schedule
11:54:07 <ais523> if you want to beat them, therefore, you repeatedly adjust your *own* schedule to change where the gaps are, until one of the gaps hits 0
11:54:07 <korvo> wWwwW: As a follow-up, have you heard the phrase "infinite type" yet?
11:54:12 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143053&oldid=143051 * Ractangle * (-1) The semicolon is pointless
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11:54:35 <wWwwW> nooooo but i would guess its a type that holds all types?
11:56:18 <korvo> A type that contains itself.
11:56:42 <wWwwW> does haskell have that
11:57:28 <ais523> not by default – there are ways to create them intentionally if you have to, but it'll reject code with an error if it tries to create one without using the syntax to do so
11:57:43 <korvo> ais523: Sure. And the available modes for doing that are, in my increasingly-strained analogy, like harmonics of a particle which the trap is constraining.
11:57:46 <__monty__> GHC defaults to Type-in-Type now IIRC.
11:58:22 <__monty__> So the default kind contains itself. And kinds are just types of types.
11:58:30 <korvo> Yeah, and Haskell's long had the more basic W-types. Famously Haskell has infinite lists.
11:59:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143054&oldid=142810 * None1 * (+231) /* Commands */
12:00:39 <korvo> wWwwW: Sets are examples of types. If you're having trouble imagining types, you can imagine sets for now. So, a simply-typed calculus is one where we can give "simple" sets to each variable: the variable's values will always be elements of that set.
12:01:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143055&oldid=143054 * None1 * (+4)
12:01:38 <korvo> And recursion is merely when a set isn't "simple" and the elements of that set can be examined with a "loop". (As you might guess, defining the words in quotes isn't fun.)
12:03:07 <korvo> Haskell makes this all very muddy because its types *aren't* sets. Again, sets are examples of Haskell types, but Haskell also has some other stuff going on.
12:07:17 <korvo> ais523: Still analogizing, sorry. The less normal strategies are now (a) laser cooling, (b) non-trivial ground states, (c) time crystals, and (e) cosmic rays. Triplocking is even more interesting now.
12:07:57 <ais523> I am not sure that these analogies are helpful :-D
12:08:35 <wWwwW> i had an weird idea
12:09:01 <wWwwW> you had some recursive function that was a type if that makes sense?
12:10:52 <korvo> Sure. Look at the type of `fix`. IIRC in Haskell it's (A → A) → A. This hints at the idea of a type A which is equivalent to the function type A → A.
12:11:50 <korvo> This particular kind of infinite type is sometimes called Turing coding. The intuition is that elements of A are programs, and some of them are programs for functions (which operate on programs).
12:12:51 <wWwwW> so if you have that predifined
12:13:32 <korvo> Probably. You'd have to try it and see.
12:13:39 <wWwwW> would monads be usefull in this context
12:14:13 <korvo> Monads would be a way to do I/O. If you haven't yet, look at BLC's I/O too.
12:14:40 <korvo> But if you don't know what a monad is, then don't toss them in without thinking.
12:15:01 <korvo> Same BLC as the last few times.
12:15:11 <wWwwW> isnt if i rember correctly just
12:15:23 <wWwwW> if you get an error while doing a function return that function
12:15:27 <wWwwW> else return the result
12:16:44 <korvo> I'm probably not the right person to ask. To me, a monad is fundamentally a functorial concept; you'd need to know what a functor is.
12:17:07 <wWwwW> oh ik what a functor is
12:17:24 <korvo> Like, a monad is what you get from an adjunction of functors. Or a monad is a monoid object in a category of endofunctors (the famous one!) Or a monad is an element of a 2-category.
12:17:49 <korvo> Oh! Do you know about adjunctions?
12:18:16 <wWwwW> is that weird(when knwoing about functors)
12:18:36 <korvo> Nah. But adjunctions are *very* important, so you'll likely see them a lot. It's okay if they don't make sense yet.
12:18:38 <ais523> korvo: the "monoid in a category of endofunctors" definition was actually helpful for me at one point, although I needed to have some amount of understanding of monads already to get it (and that "endo" is pulling a lot of weight)
12:21:40 <korvo> ais523: It's definitely the best definition for getting things done once you know your monad's signature.
12:22:04 <wWwwW> so what is an adjuction
12:25:33 <korvo> wWwwW: Okay, so you should look up the definition at some point, but the short idea is that we've got two categories C and D, and we want to connect them. But we don't have an equivalence.
12:25:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143056&oldid=143055 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+63)
12:26:23 <korvo> Maybe we have parts of equivalences. Like, maybe some of C can be mapped to D such that we can invert the mapping. And maybe we can extend that to a functor from C to D.
12:26:58 <korvo> And the inverse could be extended to a functor from D to C. So it's not an equivalence, but there's a "center" between them which is an equivalence.
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12:28:49 <korvo> So, that's technically all an adjunction is. It's just the pair of functors. And one of the rules of adjunctions is that, if you compose the functors in one direction, you get a monad. In the other direction, you get a comonad.
12:30:08 <korvo> Let's put it all together with a "free-forgetful" adjunction. Sets and monoids are adjoint, using the functor that sends a set to its free monoid (which is just the type of *lists* of its elements) and the functor that forgets that a monoid is a monoid (so we just have the *set* of lists of elements).
12:30:46 <korvo> If we compose these functors, then we get an endofunctor from sets to sets. It's a monad! And it's a familiar one: the list monad, encoding a non-determinism effect.
12:30:47 <wWwwW> imma watch the monad vid by a byte of code now
12:31:29 <korvo> Sure, have fun. Don't worry if it doesn't all come together yet; there's so much to learn.
12:32:45 <wWwwW> WAITWAITWAITWAITWAIT
12:32:52 <wWwwW> MONADS ARE RECURSIVE
12:33:37 <wWwwW> from he video i watched
12:33:46 <wWwwW> it looks like a monad is just a function
12:33:53 <wWwwW> specificlly for if's or something
12:34:41 <korvo> It's a functor with a property, technically. If you think of functors as type constructors, then monads are type constructors too.
12:35:40 <korvo> (Even more technically, the functor *carries* the monad. And it keeps going: the list type constructor carries two applicative lax functors.)
12:36:19 <wWwwW> ot atleast TLC with monads
12:37:07 <korvo> That's literally a category error. A category, not a functor, would have the property of being TC. And most categories we talk about are *not* TC, including the categories we use to talk about programming.
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12:38:16 <korvo> That said, you might eventually study Turing categories, which have Turing objects, which are merely things that support that Turing coding from earlier.
12:38:42 <wWwwW> what is a category error?
12:39:43 <korvo> The reason we call them "categories" is because a mathematician (Maclane) wanted to mock a philosopher (Aristoteles). That philosopher used "categories" to collect all of the things in the world in distinct ways, so that we wouldn't confuse one thing for another.
12:41:01 <korvo> In category theory, if we want to relate one thing to another thing structurally, we use a functor. Functors are analogies.
12:42:45 <korvo> For whatever you like. One functor you'll encounter eventually is the fundamental group, which is kind of like the analogy that physical objects can have holes.
12:43:26 <korvo> A functor I've recently documented is Conway's law, which is the analogy that a system looks kind of like the people that designed it.
12:43:48 <wWwwW> this function M is an analogy for making the category into a haskell program with to parts: a type defintion, and a recursive lambda function
12:44:01 <wWwwW> *functor not function
12:44:25 <wib_jonas> I might need a good cryptography introduction book. I'm not confused by secret key cryptography, which seems to have a maze of a thousand different primitives all alike (I mean the interface for the primitives, not the specific implementations trying to satisfy their requirements). Public key cryptography is even more confusing, but it's clear
12:44:26 <wib_jonas> enough that I should try to understand secret key cryptography first.
12:44:51 <korvo> You could do that. You'd have to show that your functor is homomorphic. Usually that means that it acts on each piece indepedently, but the definition varies from category to category. (Can't skip the fundamentals here.)
12:45:53 <wWwwW> IIRC homomorphic means that all objects in one "thing" can be mapped to objects in another "thing". in this instancem the firts thing is a category and the second one is the haskell program
12:45:53 <korvo> You'd also have to deal with the problem that there infamously *isn't* a category of Haskell types. This is a classic sore spot for Haskellers: https://wiki.haskell.org/Hask
12:46:09 <wWwwW> why specifically for haskell?
12:48:08 <korvo> Like, why did they not make it a category? Most programming languages don't give nice categories. Language designers don't really like maths.
12:48:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sytra * New user account
12:48:30 <wWwwW> unless your a esolang desginer
12:50:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143057&oldid=143022 * Sytra * (+200)
12:50:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143058&oldid=143057 * Sytra * (-1)
12:50:46 <ais523> korvo: the difficulty seems to be that categories tend to describe total languages, whereas in most cases you want your programming language to be non-total
12:50:48 <korvo> It's gotten better in the past few years. But you'll see lots of languages that incorporate maths while refusing to acknowledge the limitations proven by maths.
12:51:00 <wib_jonas> It seems like all the secret key cryptography primitives are similar to entropy extraction, as in they are deterministic functions that take an input and return a short hash that looks like it's pseudorandom as in it was chosen uniformly in the range and independently on any sets of different inputs, except they aren't really but is close enough
12:51:00 <wib_jonas> that you can pretend they are pseudorandom for practical purposes. Only there are many different variants on this that have restrictions on when exactly you are allowed to pretend that they're pseudorandom, making different assumptions on their input for this etc. So my major problem is that I don't understand why there need to be all those
12:51:01 <wib_jonas> different restrictions, what the restrictions actually are in specific, and how can you use those primitives safely despite those restrictions. My minor problem is that I don't understand why the primitives seem to only generate short outputs.
12:52:01 <wWwwW> i got an horrible esolan idea
12:52:06 <korvo> ais523: Even in that case, it's only a little bit of effort. Turing categories have Turing codes. Something like f-exprs could be used as those codes.
12:52:14 <wWwwW> you have some esolang to proove things bout the esolang itself
12:52:21 <wWwwW> but the esolang ALWAYS no matter what
12:52:25 <wWwwW> prooves itself wrong
12:52:53 <korvo> Kernel Lisp is based on f-exprs, and by zero coincidence, its author (Shutt) knew a fair amount of category theory and used it to describe the abstractive limitations of language.
12:53:44 <korvo> ais523: What really bites about Turing categories is that they don't have working universal properties. Famously: https://james-iry.blogspot.com/2011/05/why-eager-languages-dont-have-products.html
12:55:03 <korvo> wib_jonas: It's probably zero comfort, but all the rules are cargo-culted. It's an open question whether one-way functions from P to NP exist, let alone whether SHA or AES are examples.
12:55:39 <korvo> And yeah, you're hitting at the heart of the situation: is pseudorandomness actually computationally hard to examine, or is there a trick to it?
12:56:28 <wib_jonas> For public key cryptography I don't understand the relation between two different styles: one is public key encryption where you can encrypt data using a public key but you can only decrypt it with the secret key, and can't decrypt knowing just the public key; the other is Diffie-Helman key exchange, where two keypairs are used such that you can
12:56:28 <wib_jonas> compute the same value from either the first secret key and the second public key or the second secret key and the first public key, but you can't get that value from just the two public keys.
12:56:31 <korvo> wWwwW: Yes. But you might want to take a step back and think about whether you really want to write a proof language. I don't know if we have any examples on the wiki that would inpsire you.
12:56:54 <wWwwW> but like idk how to do it
12:57:09 <wWwwW> but i rlly want to do it beforew somebody else does it
12:57:25 <wWwwW> also i would name it: "hypocrypt" or however you spell it
12:57:28 <ais523> you might want to learn a non-esoteric proof language
12:57:47 <wWwwW> that math mode thing
12:57:52 <ais523> I think Agda, despite being one of the harder ones to use, is one of the mathematically clearest as to what is going on
12:57:59 <wib_jonas> korvo: sure, but my question isn't whether the primitives are actually pseudorandom enough, that'd be the cryptanalitic level question. I'd like to understand the user side, which is what goals the primitives are trying to satisfy, and what that implies about how I should use them for higher-level operations.
12:59:00 <korvo> wib_jonas: Think of the first style as sealing an envelope (classic 80s metaphor) or packing a box (2000s metaphor, used in libsodium). The second style is really a different primitive, key exchange, and it should be compared with stuff like PAKE rather than envelope/box primitives.
12:59:44 <ais523> wib_jonas: so I think the fundamental problem is that the easiest-to-work-with primitive is the stream cipher, *but* it is quite hard to create secure stream ciphers, so normally the primitive is a block cipher and there's an attempt to convert it to a stream cipher somehow
13:00:03 <ais523> and there have historically been a lot of attempts to do that that turned out to be incorrect
13:00:29 <wWwwW> can you help me korvo? plz(idk)
13:01:21 <wib_jonas> ais523: ok, but then I probably need a book to tell me what stream cipher and block cipher mean specifically to understand that
13:01:54 <korvo> wib_jonas: Ah, do you have examples? I can make guesses. Like, hash truncation is usually okay unless the hash is weirdly formatted, as in UUID. Compression happens before encryption but can sometimes weaken it; more generally, there's the Cryptographic Doom Principle, which books don't teach.
13:02:20 <korvo> wWwwW: I already have a proof language I'm avoiding writing.
13:02:35 <ais523> so a stream cipher is basically a seeded random number generator – in order to use one of those for (symmetric-key) encryption, you need to seed it with a) a symmetric key and b) a random number (to prevent replay attacks)
13:02:38 <wWwwW> for my concept specifically
13:02:41 <wib_jonas> korvo: it seems like for at least some practical things in public key crypto, you can use either public key encryption or DH exchange, but how interchangable or equivalent are the two?
13:02:58 <korvo> Also, "before somebody else does it" isn't really inspiring to me. I would *love it* if somebody wrote all the languages and toolchains for me and I didn't have to build any more of them, but that's not gonna happen.
13:03:24 <ais523> but there are various requirements considered important for it to be secure in practice, e.g. you can't predict the key from the output and the random number (which is called the "nonce"), and you can't predict previous output from its current internal state
13:03:28 <wWwwW> to elaborate on that sentence
13:03:49 <wWwwW> before some body else does it so i seem uncreative to myself and others as ive beemn told my esolang are unoriginal
13:04:23 <korvo> wib_jonas: It's really hard for me to imagine interchanging them. Often they complement each other, as in TLS or SSH, or more recently in Magic Wormhole (insert PAKE passphrase, transfer file from one computer to another)
13:04:37 <ais523> I can't remember the full list of requirements and, as korvo says, some of them are probably cargo-cult requiremetns
13:06:18 <ais523> a block cipher is basically a function from an n-bit input (for some fixed n) to an n-bit output, that behaves like it's either a) randomly generated or b) a randomly generated bijection
13:06:44 <ais523> and block ciphers have no real advantage other than that they're apparently easier to make than stream ciphers, and a lot of research has gone into how you create a stream cipher from a block cipher
13:07:25 <ais523> ah no, block ciphers have larger input than output, it's not just an n-bit input but a pair of an n-bit input and a k-bit input
13:07:45 <korvo> wWwwW: No worries. You're not expected to be original yet at your level of study. You might find https://plzoo.andrej.com/ interesting.
13:07:48 <ais523> I think I am confusing the cipher, with the permutation it's built from
13:08:17 <wWwwW> ill still make it tho
13:08:22 <ais523> korvo: fwiw I couldn't do category theory until halfway through my PhD, and even by the end of it I found it hard to think about
13:08:30 <ais523> I keep getting confused between different levels of abstraction that act similarly
13:08:55 <wWwwW> public school...and im 13
13:09:07 <wWwwW> is it normal for me to be this deep already?
13:09:08 <ais523> e.g. the exponentiation-like operation in a Cartesian-closed category is quite similar to a function operation, but they aren't the same thing and although I conceptually know how they are different, I get confused when trying to reason about it
13:09:48 <korvo> ais523: I think you've got it all right. We have one proven way of doing stream ciphering (one-time pads), one proven way of doing block ciphering (Feistel networks), and a series of constructions bridging the two styles.
13:10:47 <korvo> ais523: I don't think I understood category theory until ekmett explained it to me on the back of a bus at a Google Summer of Code retreat. Even then I didn't understand why mathematicians cared about it until I started on my Russellian Lojban project.
13:11:52 <korvo> wWwwW: There's some things I'd expect, like writing some small programs to help with homework or video games or household tasks. But nah, you're not in that deep yet and you're still learning.
13:12:48 <ais523> so obviously, if there is a publicly-known random oracle, you can make that into a stream cipher just by giving it the key, nonce and byte position within the output to create a one-time pad
13:13:04 <ais523> which means that the basic problem of cryptography is to find things that work like random oracles
13:13:27 <ais523> korvo: 13-year-old me was very overconfident in their programming abilities
13:14:35 <wib_jonas> korvo: it seems like DH exchange is more powerful than public key encryption, because it seems like to emulate public key encryption, you generate a random keypair, do a DH exchange with your secret key and the recipient's public key, and use the resulting value as entropy to generate a symmetric key, the recipient will be able to reproduce the
13:14:36 <wib_jonas> same symmetric key from the public key that you have (which you send with the message) and their secret key. http://www.noiseprotocol.org/ does this in its simplest version, which is the N handshake pattern, and its more complex versions also use DH primitives to send secret messages (though also for authentication).
13:14:42 <korvo> ais523: Well, if you're who I think you are, you made the news. Unlike you or Terry Tao, I only placed like third in the math olympiads, and by the time I was 13, I was merely programming my TI-84 to solve triangles.
13:14:50 <korvo> Y'all're the professors; I'm a dropout.
13:15:09 <ais523> korvo: I think I was older than that when I made the news
13:15:18 <wib_jonas> but I am not going to claim that DH exchange is definitely always more powerful than public key encryption, only that it seems like that from a high-level view, and I may not understand some details that change this
13:15:52 <wWwwW> its hell to be even a little bit of a techy/nerd at my age in dnemark
13:16:43 <wib_jonas> wWwwW: no idea, we regulars are old and barely had internet access and certainly did not have Haskell when we were 13 years old
13:17:11 <wWwwW> its more of a bullying problem
13:17:21 <ais523> when I was younger, my main programming languages were first various BASICs, then VBA for Excel
13:17:29 <ais523> after a while I moved onto "C++" but actually basically C
13:17:30 <korvo> wib_jonas: Yes! You're totally right. This is a super-subtle nuance. I don't have a good reference, but "Impagliazzo's five worlds" are five different answers to P vs NP, and two of them only differ in whether DH kex is possible.
13:18:02 <korvo> https://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2004/06/impagliazzos-five-worlds.html will have to do.
13:18:23 <korvo> I should write an nLab article about this, maybe. They're still sore at me for the article on Conway's law.
13:19:14 <ais523> wWwwW: I had that issue too when I was younger – changing from primary to secondary school helped a lot, so did finding a friend group who was happy to just stand around and talk about random things but had sufficient numbers to deter bullies from getting involved
13:19:51 <wWwwW> i have no freinds everybody hates me and calls me weird
13:20:27 <ais523> that was me in primary school, I think?
13:20:52 <wWwwW> I AM A HORRIBLE BREED OF BRAIN
13:21:10 <wib_jonas> korvo; HEY! I'm a dropout too, not a professor
13:21:22 <ais523> I partly solved it by learning about subjects that the other children in school wanted to talk about
13:22:04 <wWwwW> i know basically every subject. thats not sport. denmark is very known as "the hooligan nation" i think i dont like football so its just impossible
13:22:22 <wib_jonas> korvo: re Impagliazzo's five worlds, than you, I'll have to look at that
13:22:24 <korvo> wWwwW: Look up "tall poppy syndrome" and "law of jante". It's not your fault.
13:22:36 <ais523> wib_jonas: well, I'm unemployed at the moment – I burned out just before Covid hit, and although I'm gradually recovering, I still have weeks at a time when I don't really feel up to doing anything
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13:23:07 <ais523> it's like I have reserves of concentration which burn out whenever I do anything, and take days to weeks to recover
13:23:18 <ais523> so I'm scared to get a job in case I find myself unable to do it
13:23:53 <wWwwW> korvo re: for tall poppy syndrome i dont think it applies. i try not to brag to the people in my school. i try atleast
13:24:34 <ais523> people used to ask me random mental arithmetic questions in the corridor all the time, which I think may have been technically a form of bullying? or maybe they were just interested to see if I could do it
13:24:55 <ais523> I am quite good at mental arithmetic, and am not sure which direction the correlation goes (i.e. whether I learned it because people assumed I was good at it or vice versa)
13:25:23 <wWwwW> pope as a joke ask me nonsensical math as a joke
13:25:36 <korvo> wWwwW: "law of jante" would be the right one for Danes. It's not you, it's peer pressure.
13:25:53 <wib_jonas> ais523: I can understand that, though I'm not quite in the same situation, instead I do have a job but it's not a very technical one, and even with it I feel like I don't have any energy for hobby stuff or learning, but I also wouldn't have energy for hobby without a job because a dayjob that requires me to show up in the office on most workdays
13:25:54 <wib_jonas> helps a lot with having a regular daily routine.
13:26:17 <wWwwW> i also have an extreme
13:26:31 <wWwwW> im bullied ofr him
13:26:44 <wWwwW> ppl thinks im weird cuz my borhter has a mental condition
13:28:16 <wib_jonas> "random mental arithmetic questions in the corridor " => that's new to me, I don't remember that specific form of bullying
13:28:59 <ais523> that was secondary school, after I already had a reputation for being good at maths
13:29:14 <wib_jonas> unless perhaps you count back when my grandmother tried to drill the multiplication table with me until I finally learned what 7*6 and 7*8 and 7*9 are
13:29:59 <ais523> to be fair, the basic 100 digit×digit multiplications are one of the few pieces of mathematical facts which are really worth memorising
13:30:37 <wib_jonas> yes, that's why I don't count as bullying, even if it might not have been the most effective method to teach me
13:30:37 <ais523> in most cases it is best to learn the underlying rules rather than trying to remember facts individually, but the digit multiplications are so important that learning them by rote as a child is the best way to do it
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13:35:18 <wWwwW> ont eh discussion of is \_(.)-> tc i have a prioblem
13:37:23 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143059&oldid=142025 * Cocosbeans * (+207) /* Racket */
13:47:31 <wWwwW> cant you just make a esolang by saying this is the axioms
13:47:38 <wWwwW> and typeing out some random bullsh*t
13:47:52 <ais523> would it be a *good* esolang, though?
13:48:06 <wWwwW> thats bascially what https://esolangs.org/wiki/Post_canonical_system is right?
13:48:11 <ais523> like, normally esolangs are constructed for some purpose
13:48:26 <wWwwW> it would bu a stupid joke tho
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13:51:02 <ais523> there have been a couple of attempts to make languages whose behaviour changes, e.g., every day
13:51:12 <ais523> which is similar in spirit to a randomly generated esolang
13:51:17 <ais523> but I don't think any of them worked very well
13:52:44 <esolangs> [[HAHAHA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143060 * Yayimhere * (+392) Created page with "'''HAHAHA''' is a joke esolang by [[User:Yayimhere]] == axioms(only way to do computation == these are the axioms: fdhsatuivjsaiduagjfds gfvsgyutudtyureqwww >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><>> (.).(.).(.).(''n'')=(.''n'') ''n''[][] ''n''! = ''n'' AAAAAAAAAA''n''''n'' where ''n''
13:52:52 <wWwwW> this is what i tried
13:52:59 <wWwwW> complete bullshit but idc
13:53:50 <esolangs> [[HAHAHA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143061&oldid=143060 * Yayimhere * (+69) /* axioms(only way to do computation */
13:55:03 <esolangs> [[HAHAHA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143062&oldid=143061 * Yayimhere * (+5) /* axioms(only way to do computation */
13:55:41 <esolangs> [[HAHAHA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143063&oldid=143062 * Yayimhere * (+32) /* axioms(only way to do computation lol) */
13:55:55 <wWwwW> how to code anything in this
13:56:39 <ais523> so the problem with these esolangs, is that most people who program esolangs do so because they're looking for interesting or important problems to solve
13:56:48 <ais523> but randomly generated problems usually aren't interesting to solve
13:57:41 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143064&oldid=143005 * Yayimhere * (+13) /* General languages */
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14:08:13 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143065 * Yayimhere * (+444) Created page with "''''''(pronounced true) is an very simple esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] which is based on [[HAHAHA]]. it was created since no other esolangs create esolangs from random bullshit == syntax == a program is made up of a python list, full of strings(without quotes) and th
14:08:36 <wWwwW> theres something wrong with me lol
14:11:38 <wib_jonas> "behaviour changes, e.g., every day" => I've seen two of these, and they seem like joke, but the kind of joke that's worth to make once just so you know it's possible. One is https://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 , a language that only works until a certain cutoff date, which in that case was just a day after the publication. The other is Acme::Current, a
14:11:39 <wib_jonas> perl module with a function that tells you the current date, but it just hardcodes that date, and every day a new version is released with the next date hardcoded – though this soon got toned down to just one version that you have to reinstall every day.
14:14:15 <wWwwW> theres also TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
14:16:38 <wib_jonas> I should tell a bit about the motivation for why I'm trying to look at symmetric crypto. Obviously authentication and encryption are important and can matter for me too, but those aren't the only kinds of high-level tasks that I want to do. I was thinking of a seeded video game, with a game world quasi-infinite, i.e. so large that you can't
14:16:39 <wib_jonas> generate all of it, but can be generated locally, i.e. multiple servers that share a secret seed but can't communicate generate a world consistent among the servers regardless of what order the adversarial players explore it, and the players (who don't have the secret seed) can't predict certain things in the world without asking a server about it.
14:17:44 <ais523> wib_jonas: NH4 does something similar to that, with each level having its own seed so that they can be generated out of order in seeded games
14:20:09 <wib_jonas> The primitive under this is a deterministic quasi-random function, which takes the secret seed and a context, and give a number that seems uniform and independent among different contexts to the player who doesn't know the seed. But the actual world needs a layer over this, because nearby locations in the world are not independent, it's just that
14:20:09 <wib_jonas> each part of the world is close to independent of everything far enough from that location, you effectively generate it by generating some underlying randomness in a large enough environment around the location and compute the location in a way that the underlying randomness farther from what you've taken into account either can't influence the
14:20:10 <wib_jonas> world at that location, or it's at least exponentially (in the radius that you look at) unlikely that they influence the world at this location.
14:21:18 <wib_jonas> so libsodium recently added a high-level function that seems to be suitable for this, https://doc.libsodium.org/key_derivation/hkdf#incremental-entropy-extraction
14:22:27 <wib_jonas> for a video game in practice it's usually simpler to *not* do this, by either having the servers communicate, or by making the world small enough that each server can generate all of it (Spelunky 2 does the latter)
14:23:37 <wib_jonas> and this probably applies to me as well, as in I can probably use approximations like that, but I'm still interested in how to do this sort of thing well in theory
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14:36:39 <wWwwW> i like weird machines. i did a weird machine for music today
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14:39:23 <wWwwW> could you make a weird machine in say True
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14:39:55 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143066&oldid=142990 * Yayimhere * (+23) /* esolangs */
14:41:06 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143067&oldid=143065 * Yayimhere * (+163) /* syntax */
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14:56:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dolphy * New user account
14:59:19 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143068&oldid=143031 * MihaiEso * (+0) /* STRING */
15:06:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143069&oldid=143058 * MihaiEso * (-43481) Archived old discussions to clean-up page.
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15:07:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (01-12-2023 to 31-08-2024)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143070 * MihaiEso * (+43684) Archived old discussions, from 1 December 2023, up to 31 August 2024. From [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]
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15:35:35 <esolangs> [[FLOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143072&oldid=143068 * MihaiEso * (+16) /* Types */
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19:43:21 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143073&oldid=143025 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Programm forms */
20:02:52 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143074&oldid=143052 * Pointless * (+20) Change wording from "Our" to "The"
20:03:55 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143075&oldid=143074 * Pointless * (+1) Change wording from "Our" to "The"
20:22:51 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143076&oldid=143075 * Pointless * (+1) added spacing below option 3: using command line
21:03:10 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143077&oldid=143064 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* General languages */ Sort
21:04:20 <esolangs> [[HAHAHA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143078&oldid=143063 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Stub, categories
21:06:28 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143079&oldid=143067 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) Stub, categories
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22:11:31 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143080&oldid=143009 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (-2)
22:20:04 <esolangs> [[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143081&oldid=143080 * H. H. P. M. P. Cole * (+161) /* All possible small programs */
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04:08:37 <esolangs> [[2 bytes B)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143082&oldid=134265 * Yayimhere * (+10) /* Quine */ is a cheating one
04:09:23 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143083&oldid=143079 * Yayimhere * (-28)
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04:29:47 <esolangs> [[River]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143084 * Yayimhere * (+499) Created page with "'''River''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] based on [[The Waterfall Model]]. it was named River because it's based on number bases and a waterfall base is...A River == computation == first of all every waterclock will have a list of actions for any value it c
04:32:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143085&oldid=141803 * Yayimhere * (+227) /* Counter-based languages */
04:34:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143086&oldid=143085 * Yayimhere * (+103) /* Authors */
05:02:40 <esolangs> [[Brainyay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143087&oldid=141106 * PhiPhiPHIpHi * (+1089)
05:04:08 <esolangs> [[Brainyay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143088&oldid=143087 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* Commands */ fix list
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05:48:55 <esolangs> [[User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143089&oldid=143012 * ZCX islptng * (+370)
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07:37:07 <zemhill> web.polexchange: points -9.40, score 13.19, rank 42/47
07:53:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (01-12-2023 to 31-08-2024)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143090&oldid=143070 * Ractangle * (-5)
07:53:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (01-12-2023 to 31-08-2024)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143091&oldid=143090 * Ractangle * (+5) ah fuck it's no use
07:56:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143092&oldid=142960 * Ractangle * (-19) /* test topic */
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10:10:12 <esolangs> [[Langton's ant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143093 * Iddi01 * (+5756) I could be the first to view Langton's ant in this perspective
10:17:21 <esolangs> [[Ant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143094&oldid=92204 * Iddi01 * (+54) Link to [[Langton's ant]]
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10:50:43 <esolangs> [[Peano]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143095 * None1 * (+1503) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|i=Peano arithmetic}} ==Arithmetic Operators== Peano has only two built-in arithmetic operators: successor and precursor, unlike Peano arithmetic which has only one. The precursor of a is represented by <code>'a</code>, the successor of a is represented
10:50:56 <esolangs> [[Peano]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143096&oldid=143095 * None1 * (-6) /* I/O */
10:52:16 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143097&oldid=142979 * None1 * (+12) /* P */
10:52:40 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143098&oldid=142682 * Iddi01 * (+53) A d d e d. a. f e w. t o. t h i s. l i s t. w h i c h. i. d o n ' t. k n o w. h o w. t o. b r i n g. a t t e n t i o n. t o. w i t h o u t. u s i n g. D i s c o r d. ( w h i c h. i. r e f u s e. t o. u s e. a t. a l l. c o s t s )
10:52:55 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143099&oldid=142755 * None1 * (+56) /* My Esolangs */
10:56:08 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143100&oldid=143098 * None1 * (+11) /* F */ Fysh definitely meets the criteria
10:57:52 <esolangs> [[Langton's ant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143101&oldid=143093 * Iddi01 * (+0) /* Multiple ants */ I myself got confused with the directions?!
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11:26:48 <esolangs> [[Hashell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143102&oldid=143010 * Gggfr * (-196) /* operators */
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11:27:31 <esolangs> [[Hashell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143103&oldid=143102 * Gggfr * (+0)
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11:29:58 <esolangs> [[HAHAHA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143104&oldid=143078 * Gggfr * (+23) /* axioms(only way to do computation lol) */
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11:33:07 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143105&oldid=142399 * Gggfr * (-1891) move to correct spot
11:34:07 <esolangs> [[O()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143106&oldid=142380 * Gggfr * (+1901) /* syntax */
11:36:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unique]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143107 * Gggfr * (+176) Created page with "this is technically a subset of [[forte]] since using a number sets it value to a specific constant ~~~~"
11:37:35 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
11:37:59 <fizzie> "We need to do something. This is something. We need to do this."
11:39:25 <int-e> . o O ( Therefore, we must do it. -- politician's logic )
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11:41:01 <ipadwwwww> i asked if my talk page addtion was correct
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11:45:15 <int-e> the number commands don't exist in forte, do they
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11:46:35 <int-e> ipadwwwww: so we were supposed to mattch Gggfr with ipadwwwww and realize that of the many edits you were specifically asking about the last one. (plus, some people ignore esolangs because of the sheer volume of messages it produces)
11:47:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143108&oldid=143107 * Gggfr * (-176) Blanked the page
11:53:06 <ipadwwwww> i wanted to make an esolang and i wand to know, is this possible :
12:09:33 <esolangs> [[BF joust]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143109 * Iddi01 * (+22) Some people prefer the lowercase name
12:10:25 <int-e> ipadwwwww: what do you think a monad is?
12:11:02 <ipadwwwww> a monad of something is a monoid of the endofunctors of that something
12:12:39 <int-e> I guess you have the single arrow category where those two become isomorphic
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14:00:20 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again11]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143110 * PrySigneToFry * (+2240) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/Mihai Again7|It is recommended not to rewrite the memory of the comP $3DHt+H$(L+tC?ftfA?HIuI? HIE?MtHIIE?H$E3EtCsDAADA D;??` C??A&]] 1. Take this Program <pre> What is your name..."
14:00:47 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143111&oldid=143110 * PrySigneToFry * (+42)
14:08:32 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143112&oldid=143003 * PrySigneToFry * (+30)
14:09:21 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143113&oldid=143077 * PrySigneToFry * (+61)
14:22:24 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143114&oldid=142931 * PrySigneToFry * (+129)
14:28:29 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143115&oldid=128270 * PrySigneToFry * (+552) Change the font
14:32:05 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143116&oldid=142986 * PrySigneToFry * (+137)
14:40:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143117&oldid=143015 * PrySigneToFry * (+729) /* A shorter Quine program code in */ new section
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15:08:23 <esolangs> [[E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143118&oldid=103931 * Emelang * (-1) /* Pronunciation */
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15:54:55 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143119&oldid=143111 * MihaiEso * (+30)
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16:06:21 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143120 * MihaiEso * (+2186) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again11|<span style='font-family:Unifont;'>//`??>(</span>]]. What are you doing here Its shit, MEGA shit! ~~~~ 1. Take this `Program <pre> What is your name? Stick to what you think from the age of thirty to thirty. What is yo
16:06:35 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143121&oldid=143120 * MihaiEso * (-4)
16:07:19 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143122&oldid=143113 * MihaiEso * (+62) /* Horribly translated variants */
16:07:53 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143123&oldid=143121 * MihaiEso * (+61)
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17:01:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143124&oldid=143056 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+201) return of tommyaweosmalt, use only for editing this article
17:02:14 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosmalt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143125&oldid=137742 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+126)
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17:03:14 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosmalt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143126&oldid=143125 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+196)
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17:27:18 <esolangs> [[Befunge/Constants]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143127&oldid=143114 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) Grammar
17:30:11 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143128&oldid=143100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* R */ Sort
17:32:45 <esolangs> [[Langton's ant]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143129&oldid=143101 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* External resources */ Convert to list
17:33:22 <esolangs> [[Ant]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143130&oldid=143094 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) Confusion
17:34:01 <esolangs> [[Ant]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143131&oldid=143130 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) Category
17:35:08 <esolangs> [[River]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143132&oldid=143084 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Stub, categories
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17:53:14 <korvo> I wonder what to put for reference implementation when the language first arose in a paper with no corresponding software. This is famously the case for Lisp, but it's also the case for Langton's ant.
18:05:10 <esolangs> [[Langton's ant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143133&oldid=143129 * Corbin * (+547) Rewrite opening, add infobox, bluelink Langton, link to whitepapers, explain TC-ness.
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18:29:14 <esolangs> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143134&oldid=142669 * Corbin * (+685) Infobox proglang and bluelinks. This is still a stub; Life's too well-studied to have such a short page. (Yes, *that* Bourne. Yes, Guy's son wrote the code; Guy wrote the book. Yes, Conway probably invented it a year or two prior.)
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19:05:32 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143135&oldid=142962 * Ractangle * (+2) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
19:05:46 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143136&oldid=143135 * Ractangle * (-6) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
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19:42:11 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points -3.00, score 17.93, rank 24/47
19:43:08 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points -3.00, score 17.93, rank 24/47 (--)
19:56:21 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 3.69, score 23.91, rank 18/47 (+6)
19:56:40 <b_jonas> fungot, how old were you when Targent kidnapped your mother and blackmailed your father?
19:56:40 <fungot> b_jonas: does anyone know how to calculate pi) so, i'm looking for a compiler
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20:04:29 <b_jonas> fungot: yes, http://www.quadibloc.com/math/circint.htm
20:04:29 <fungot> b_jonas: i doubt it would be goo, and pointed at your crotch?
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20:10:41 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 4.26, score 24.45, rank 16/47 (+2)
20:23:49 <korvo> esolangs: When was Conway's Game of Life?
20:24:01 <esolangs> korvo: Conway's Game of Life was invented by John Horton Conway in **1960**.
20:24:26 <korvo> esolangs: When did Conway invent their Game of Life?
20:24:35 <esolangs> korvo: John Horton Conway invented the Game of Life in the 1960s.
20:25:20 <korvo> Laconic but acceptable. Also the tokenizer probably doesn't like digits.
20:25:26 <korvo> esolangs: Who invented the Game of Life?
20:25:52 <esolangs> korvo: The Game of Life was invented by John Horton Conway sometime between 1968 and 1970.
20:26:40 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 6.52, score 26.80, rank 11/47 (+5)
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20:27:51 <zzo38> If the OID arcs 1.8.46, 1.9.46, and 1.10.46, are not currently assigned, I might suggest to keep them permanently unassigned, so that you can always distinguish a text form OID from a binary form OID.
20:32:25 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143137&oldid=142899 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4) /* Operations */
20:33:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gggfr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143138&oldid=134655 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+440)
20:35:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:MinusGreater]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143139 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+292) Created page with "i really don't like this one. ~~~~"
20:35:51 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 8.29, score 28.93, rank 9/47 (+2)
20:36:18 <esolangs> [[MinusGreater]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143140&oldid=133987 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* hello world */
20:37:27 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143141&oldid=141204 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+7) /* commands */
20:47:02 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 8.74, score 29.66, rank 7/47 (+2)
20:47:36 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143142&oldid=142936 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+50) /* 100BF */
20:51:03 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143143&oldid=143142 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+170) /* Emoji-gramming */
20:54:37 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143144&oldid=143141 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+349)
20:54:47 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143145&oldid=143144 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-186)
20:55:38 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143146&oldid=143145 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-3)
20:55:50 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143147&oldid=143146 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1)
21:09:40 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 8.83, score 29.75, rank 7/47 (--)
21:18:09 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 8.88, score 29.80, rank 7/47 (--)
21:21:34 <esolangs> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143148&oldid=141911 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) /* Computational class */ Interpreter, categories
21:22:28 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143149&oldid=143147 * Ractangle * (+10) /* See also */
21:24:33 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143150&oldid=141203 * Ractangle * (+69) /* Syntax */
21:24:47 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 10.14, score 31.67, rank 7/47 (--)
21:29:47 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143151&oldid=141201 * Ractangle * (+97)
21:31:23 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143152&oldid=143151 * Ractangle * (+97)
21:32:55 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143153&oldid=140821 * Ractangle * (+31)
21:35:36 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143154&oldid=143152 * Ractangle * (+69)
21:36:19 <esolangs> [[Snakel (DifferentDance8)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143155&oldid=140830 * Ractangle * (+59)
21:36:48 <esolangs> [[Snakel (DifferentDance8)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143156&oldid=143155 * Ractangle * (-60)
21:38:04 <esolangs> [[Snakel (DifferentDance8)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143157&oldid=143156 * Ractangle * (+53)
21:39:08 <esolangs> [[Bake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143158&oldid=143150 * Ractangle * (-12)
21:39:49 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 11.07, score 33.27, rank 5/47 (+2)
21:47:52 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 11.12, score 33.32, rank 5/47 (--)
22:10:44 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 11.50, score 33.90, rank 5/47 (--)
22:13:47 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 14.36, score 38.97, rank 3/47 (+2)
22:33:02 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 16.17, score 42.60, rank 2/47 (+1)
22:57:02 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 18.00, score 47.08, rank 1/47 (+1)
22:57:05 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points 18.00, score 47.08, rank 1/47 (--)
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23:54:48 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143159&oldid=141354 * Ais523 * (+3250) document my recent winner; also mark which years are incomplete, and which are complete but uninteresting; plus a couple of typo fixes
23:59:52 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143160&oldid=143159 * Ais523 * (+225) /* 2024 */ formatting; mention monolith inspiration
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00:19:54 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143161&oldid=143160 * Ais523 * (+14) /* 2024 */ fix a mistake in the description
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00:34:18 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143162&oldid=143161 * Ais523 * (+1964) /* Reconnaissance */ mention tape length estimation
00:34:55 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143163&oldid=143162 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Tape length estimation */ grammar
00:35:48 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143164&oldid=143163 * Ais523 * (+66) /* Tape length estimation */ fix broken parenthetical
00:39:07 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143165&oldid=143164 * Ais523 * (+37) /* Anti-shudder clear */ clarify
00:41:13 <esolangs> [[1 byte :5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143166&oldid=127866 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+25) /* Interpeter */
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00:50:34 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143167&oldid=143165 * Ais523 * (+1202) /* Defense */ discuss flag repair
00:53:48 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143168&oldid=143167 * Ais523 * (+220) /* Flag repair */ mention interaction with careless clears
01:00:46 <esolangs> [[1 byte :5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143169&oldid=143166 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+23) /* Interpeter */
01:14:52 <esolangs> [[Cut]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143170&oldid=79586 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+65) /* Example programs */
01:15:22 <esolangs> [[Cut]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143171&oldid=143170 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-4) /* Example programs */
01:22:38 <zzo38> Why does ASN.1 BER need the specification of which of the three kind of ISO 6093 formats is used?
01:31:22 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143172&oldid=143154 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Categories
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04:13:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sei2423 * New user account
04:19:20 <esolangs> [[Langton's ant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143173&oldid=143133 * Iddi01 * (+235) Fix details
04:31:17 <zzo38> In order to be closer to ASN.1 so that a similar program can be used, I had made up ASN.1X (instead of ASN.2). https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zzo38/scorpion/refs/heads/trunk/asn1/asn1.doc Please tell me if you think something should be changed, or is wrong, or is no good, etc.
04:33:54 <zzo38> (ASN.1X adds some things and removes some things compared with ASN.1, and also adds a few additional restrictions compared with ASN.1)
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07:06:35 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143174&oldid=143149 * Ractangle * (+97)
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07:18:41 <iddi01> !zjoust polexchange (>)*9([-[([(+[{(-)*4(-[{(-)*123[+.]}])%6}])%5][-.]>[(-[{(+)*4(+[{(+)*123[-.]}])%6}])%5][+.]>)*-1]]>)*22
07:18:41 <zemhill> iddi01.polexchange: points -3.74, score 16.68, rank 29/47
07:19:35 <iddi01> In case you haven't figured it out, the previous web.polexchange were also by me
07:42:55 <iddi01> The name refers to it exchanging polarity of clears while doing the rush.
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10:24:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143175&oldid=142734 * None1 * (+491) /* Would you like to join Funcode? */ help contributing/translating?
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10:34:54 <esolangs> [[Cut]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143176&oldid=143171 * PkmnQ * (+92) /* Python implementation */
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11:11:19 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143177&oldid=143168 * Iddi01 * (+638) /* Major Programs */ If you know the exact year, feel free to move them to the correct place
11:28:13 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again12]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143178 * PrySigneToFry * (+2391) Created page with "Translated ORK/Mihai Again8|<span style='font-family:Unifont;'>It is recommended not to rewrite the memory of the com@@? ? uAM@?MA? ?? EE,? ?e M?EMEE?EEM$ #E?AmM?E?? 9uMuu7}? ?e M?EEM?..."
11:28:42 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143179&oldid=143123 * PrySigneToFry * (+30)
11:29:13 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143180&oldid=143122 * PrySigneToFry * (+63)
11:33:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143181&oldid=143175 * PrySigneToFry * (+774) /* My all Esolangs are designed by ONLY myself until now. */ new section
11:42:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143182&oldid=128341 * Iddi01 * (+984) 1. Proposed [[Langton's ant]] 2. There is *no* obvious rule that says people cannot change their proposal, b_jonas did it and wasn't stopped 3. The syntax guide is outdated, updated it
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12:19:41 <ais523> it strikes me that maybe a way to make BF Joust easier to get into is to have a number of "fixed" hills (i.e. new programs never join them, just get scored against them) of varying difficulty
12:19:50 <ais523> so you could try to top the beginner hill first, then the intermediate hill, etc.
12:21:03 <ais523> this also might give practice in tuning to hills with different makeups
12:21:39 <ais523> impatience does as well as it does because it is hard to tune against turtles in modern BF Joust, there are so many other demands on a program's time
12:24:04 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143183&oldid=143178 * MihaiEso * (+30)
12:32:45 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143184&oldid=142476 * Tommyaweosme * (+59)
12:32:59 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143185&oldid=143184 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
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12:35:55 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143186&oldid=143185 * Tommyaweosme * (+157)
12:36:12 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143187&oldid=143186 * Tommyaweosme * (+11)
12:36:29 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143188&oldid=143187 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
12:37:44 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143189&oldid=143188 * Tommyaweosme * (+12)
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12:58:15 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again9]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143190 * MihaiEso * (+2109) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again12|<span style='font-family:Unifont;'>It is recommended not to rewrite the memory of the I2712FiZP2;l.6TH=nbReogN?</span>]] 1. Take this T=hTN}<poD1 program: <pre> At this moment// Make a medium cake. Make a medium cake.
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12:59:02 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143191&oldid=143180 * MihaiEso * (+64) /* Horribly translated variants */
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13:06:55 <b_jonas> ais523: could there instead be a number of fixed programs on the one hill?
13:07:20 <b_jonas> that is, when a new program joins, the lowest scoring non-fixed program gets dropped from the hill
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13:20:21 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143192&oldid=142581 * PrySigneToFry * (+2)
13:31:59 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143193&oldid=143177 * Ais523 * (+4253) confirmed Sookie's date of topping the hill as May 19 2019, and documenting a reverse-engineering of how it works (because Westonian didn't describe it at the time)
13:33:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143194&oldid=143047 * PrySigneToFry * (+721)
13:41:26 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143195&oldid=143193 * Ais523 * (+363) /* Major Programs */ mist became #1 on March 11 2019 (before Sookie) move into correct date section and add a reverse-engineered description. (At the time, david_werecat said "<david_werecat> I won't call it generally good, but it works for the current hill.")
13:42:33 <esolangs> [[Olus2000]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143196 * Dolphy * (+10463) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Olus2000 |paradigms=Concatenative |author=[[User:Dolphy]] |year=[[:Category:2024|2024]] |memsys=[[:Category:Stack-based|Stack-based]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |majorimpl=Will be revealed later |influence=[[Forth]] |f
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13:49:48 <esolangs> [[User:Dolphy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143197 * Dolphy * (+63) Created page with "Hello I'm Dolphy. I love math, computer science and philosophy."
13:55:00 <esolangs> [[Olus2000]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143198&oldid=143196 * Dolphy * (+1) Fix a typo
14:08:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[BASE]] to [[BAL]]
14:08:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:BASE]] to [[Talk:BAL]]
14:08:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:BASE/Other esolang implementations]] to [[Talk:BAL/Other esolang implementations]]
14:08:57 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143205&oldid=143199 * Ractangle * (-15)
14:09:22 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143206&oldid=143205 * Ractangle * (-68) /* Commands */
14:10:00 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143207&oldid=143206 * Ractangle * (+49) /* Commands */
14:10:44 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143208&oldid=143207 * Ractangle * (-15) /* Commands */
14:10:58 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143209&oldid=143208 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Hello, world! */
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14:16:00 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143210&oldid=143195 * Ais523 * (+1539) /* Major Programs */ nyuroki2 topped the hill on 19 August 2017; write a description based on the notes provided by Lymia
14:16:45 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143211&oldid=143210 * Ais523 * (+39) /* 2024 */ add a bit of description I missed
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14:43:05 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143212&oldid=143211 * Ais523 * (-336) I restored the broken links to codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg via rehosting them from a backup (unfortunately, my backup doesn't cover egojsout links)
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14:48:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143213&oldid=132422 * Ais523 * (+1178) /* Dead links */ I fixed some of them, but the egojsout links are more trouble
14:53:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Around and around, sleeping sound]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143214 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+176) /* Computational class */ new section
14:55:26 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143215&oldid=143209 * Ractangle * (-1210) /* Examples */ will make other examples later
14:55:55 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143216&oldid=143215 * Ractangle * (-1)
14:56:07 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143217&oldid=143216 * Ractangle * (-4)
14:57:30 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143218&oldid=143073 * Ractangle * (+35) /* Esolangs */
14:58:27 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143219&oldid=143217 * Ractangle * (+199) whoops
14:59:39 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143220&oldid=143219 * Ractangle * (+18) /* Commands */
15:05:58 <b_jonas> I just realized something. A few weeks ago I was thinking about local web apps. So you know how sometimes programs only have a web interface, as in they act as a HTTP server and you interact with them on a browser through a local tcp connection. This is a convenient simple way to make an interface that's portable among systems and somewhat future-proof. For simple things like showing formatted
15:06:04 <b_jonas> documentation this is ideal. But in most cases you need a bit of security, making sure that some other user on the same machine can't just connect to the same TCP stream and execute operations in the server that runs under your user's permissions? One solution would be that the web interface gives a per-connection password that you have to enter to the console launcher. But that's a bit inconvenient.
15:07:07 <b_jonas> Meanwhile, today I was thinking of how firefox doesn't show the actual URL in the URL bar, instead it tries to unescape percent-escaped UTF-8-encoded characters in the path and query string parts.
15:09:09 <b_jonas> That's a misfeature, but you could abuse it to solve the former problem: make the local web app ask the browser to show an URL where the URL has a query string that unescapes to homographs so it always looks like it launches http://localhost:8101/?lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll but in fact those aren't all letter l but like ten different percent escaped utf-8 characters that each look like an l in
15:22:02 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143221&oldid=143137 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+12) /* Syntax */
15:22:52 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143222&oldid=143221 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+43) /* Syntax */
15:23:01 <esolangs> [[Unique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143223&oldid=143222 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Syntax */
15:24:02 <esolangs> [[5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143224&oldid=142897 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+8)
15:30:08 <esolangs> [[/mbif/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143225&oldid=94356 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+34) /* See also */
15:59:49 <ais523> you could just use lowercase l and capital I
16:00:43 <ais523> although I'm not sure why you want the URL to be hard to read? is this a mitigation against shoulder-surfing attacks?
16:03:47 <b_jonas> there are existing methods to open a URL of my choice in the user's favorite browsers, but no easy way to pass a hidden POST parameter to that
16:04:07 <b_jonas> of course it would be easier to just use a long URL that hopefully shows truncated in the URL bar
16:04:42 <b_jonas> l is probably not the best choice, some other homograph group might be better
16:05:50 <ais523> I think you can make it secure without the homographs: open a randomly generated unique URL and then have that immediately POST a random string back to the server
16:06:49 <ais523> if someone tries to copy the URL they won't get in ahead of the legitimate connection, and the POSTed string won't be visible onscreen anywhere
16:07:04 <ais523> from then on it can be used for the browser and server to authenticate each other
16:07:40 <b_jonas> yeah, but that sort of depends on a race condition
16:08:00 <b_jonas> probably good enough, especially if the URL is long so likely truncated
16:08:20 <ais523> it's not really a race condition if one side of the race is known to be much faster than the other
16:08:36 <ais523> the browser won't even display the URL on screen until it starts to load the page
16:08:57 <b_jonas> though I'd make the server generate a cookie instead of the client generate a random string, but that's not really important here
16:09:28 <ais523> no, that increases the window for the race condition
16:09:54 <b_jonas> "known to be much faster than the other" => I've had my firefox freeze for long enough times that it's not that clear cut, though it probably wouldn't freeze between displaying the URL and loading it
16:10:10 <ais523> server is making the first meaningful connection here, isn't it?
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16:12:06 <b_jonas> another method could be to have browser-specific solutions for the most popular browsers, and require the user to copy a short string from the loaded browser page to the launcher for everything else
16:12:26 <b_jonas> even the browser-specific solutions could break for unusual setups of cousre
16:13:07 <ais523> on many OSes the launcher won't have a functional UI of its own
16:20:30 <b_jonas> ais523: true, but in the case I'm thinking the UI can be either a command-line program running in a terminal, or you run teh command-line program again with some the identifying string as an argument
16:20:59 <b_jonas> I mean in the former case it would read the identifier as input from the terminal
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17:19:13 <esolangs> [[Olus2000]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143226&oldid=143198 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Distinguish confusion
17:28:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[BASE/Other esolang implementations]] to [[All in one]]
17:28:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:BASE/Other esolang implementations]] to [[Talk:All in one]]
17:28:51 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143231&oldid=143220 * Ractangle * (-106) /* Other implementations */
17:33:06 <esolangs> [[All in one]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143232&oldid=143227 * Ractangle * (-2331) Replaced content with "'''All in one''' is an OSIC created by [[User:Ractangle]] that works like this: The first argument choses a commend Everything else is the commands arguments"
17:33:18 <esolangs> [[All in one]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143233&oldid=143232 * Ractangle * (+2)
17:33:32 <esolangs> [[All in one]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143234&oldid=143233 * Ractangle * (+9)
17:47:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Gggfr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143235&oldid=143138 * Gggfr * (+126) /* unique's relationship with forte */
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18:04:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Andrew's Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143236&oldid=141690 * Gggfr * (+141)
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18:08:23 <ipadwwwww> BUT you can also apply arithmetic cuz the number of functions is just the number of functions inside.
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18:09:14 <korvo> Ah, they were too fast. I was going to ask how eta-equivalence would work.
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18:10:55 <ais523> ipadwwwww: <korvo> Ah, they were too fast. I was going to ask how eta-equivalence would work.
18:11:24 <ais523> on another note, I've made a start at getting the BF Joust page back into order, having found all the missing programs from a backup I took a while ago
18:11:59 <ais523> but there's currently no way to have working trace-and-animation links, because zemhill only does those for programs on the hill and egojsout isn't running anywhere else
18:13:14 <ais523> just adding the simple example program from the egobot hill as an option in the dropdown would be helpful for that – it'd also be helpful if there were a way to compare programs from different hill iterations (which there probably is, but it isn't clear from the UI)
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18:13:50 <ais523> ipadwwwww: I've had some experience trying to design "functional, except the functions have non-function properties too" esolangs, it tends not to work well or is at least difficult to do correctly
18:14:05 <ais523> e.g. in Underload, a stack element can be interpreted either as a function or as a string, and this makes it hard to compile
18:14:17 <ais523> it's possible but it's very inelegant
18:14:26 <ais523> and is probably one of the worst parts of the language
18:14:34 <ais523> (although, it does make it fun and easy to write quines)
18:15:11 <ais523> I feel like I know most of the conversion/equivalence rules for lambda calculus but forget which one is which
18:15:27 <b_jonas> ipadwwwww: eta conversion is when alligators are like chameleons, changing color
18:15:58 <b_jonas> https://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/
18:16:27 <ais523> OK, eta-equivalence is the rule that two functions are considered equal/equivalent if they give the same outputs when given the same inputs
18:16:37 <ais523> (I knew the rule, just had to look up which rule it was specifically that was named eta)
18:17:08 <ais523> in this case, that has a fairly clear generalisation to "two functions are equal if they have the same outputs given the same inputs, and the same numerical values"
18:17:23 <korvo> ipadwwwww: Eta-equivalence is that you can take any lambda expression (call it f) and replace it with \x.f(x).
18:17:27 <int-e> \x. M x = F, x not free in M; related to extensionality
18:17:50 <korvo> So it makes me wonder what you mean by "the number of functions inside", assuming that you're counting lambda-binders.
18:18:17 <b_jonas> ais has a point, alligators behaving like chameleons is *alpha*, not *eta*
18:18:19 <ais523> an alternative way to generalise it is to have a sort of special argument that you can pass to a function to make it return its numerical value; this goes spectacularly wrong if you try to implement it or reason about how it works, but there might yet be some way to make it work (I haven't found it yet though)
18:18:22 <int-e> s/F/M/ in what I wrote (editing error)
18:18:57 <ais523> int-e: do you mean that x *is* free in M/F?
18:19:16 <int-e> ais523: no. There's a free x *after* M
18:19:28 <ais523> I understand what you were saying but misremembered what "free" meant
18:19:36 <korvo> Yeah, that word "extensionality" int-e used is important. Do you want functions to *only* be defined by their behaviors, or by their behaviors *and* their source code?
18:19:40 <int-e> well, "free" - it's bound by the outer lambda of course, but in the body it's free
18:19:46 <ipadwwwww> im so confused. why wouædnt eta stuff work
18:19:52 <ais523> it means "used but not defined", whereas I was interpreting it as "unused"
18:20:56 <HackEso> Can't open perl script "print(0+sub{}) ": No such file or directory
18:21:18 <ais523> OK, I understand why that has to return a number, because you cast it to a number
18:21:31 <korvo> ipadwwwww: I'm not saying it wouldn't work. I'm just trying to understand. Maybe this is very clear in your mind, but I can't imagine it at all.
18:21:31 <ais523> I don't understand why sub references do that when you cast them to a number, though
18:22:03 <ais523> I guess it's references in general, and they cast into their memory address?
18:22:10 <ais523> why would Perl even expose that as a primitive?
18:22:28 <ais523> (I'd expect it to exist on CPAN somewhere, but as a behaviour of 0+?)
18:22:42 <ais523> `perl -eprintf"%x",(0+\$_)
18:22:55 <ais523> that does look a lot like a memory address, they often start with 55 on Linux, IIRC
18:23:13 <ipadwwwww> ok. so you have normal expression but they have a value inwhich its equal to the number of lambdas. then you can modify this number to return new functions…does it make sense now korvo
18:23:38 <korvo> ipadwwwww: I guess let's look at some examples. Would \x.x and \x.\y.xy have the same number?
18:24:17 <ipadwwwww> if you give it an input before operations
18:24:31 <ipadwwwww> lets say x was identity for the second function
18:24:45 <korvo> Hm. Is that even decidable? I'm genuinely unsure.
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18:25:43 <ais523> korvo: I'm genuinely unsure whether it's even well-defined or not
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18:30:10 <ipadwwwww> ill just make a base in like google docs then you can see it ig
18:31:04 <b_jonas> ais523: partly for historical compatibility with old perl, the origins probably go back to ancient C which allows you to cast any pointer to a number; partly so you can use that to make a hash keyed by the addresses of references (there's a module in core to make that easier now)
18:31:29 <ais523> even modern C lets you cast any pointer to a number, you just might not like the reuslts
18:35:04 <ais523> fwiw, I'm very against languages letting you do that sort of thing just because it's easy, because it creates a compatibility nightmare down the line
18:35:22 <ais523> e.g. in Rust you can cast an
18:35:29 <ipadwwwww> i have a deep rooted problem with haskell
18:35:40 <b_jonas> `! c int f(unsigned long v) { printf("f=%lu\n", v); return 0; } int main(int c, char *v[]) { return f(f); }
18:35:55 <ais523> * cast a shared reference to a pointer, and even though usually you don't care that the pointer references the specific object it's referencing rather than a copy, the semantics do guarantee that, and that blocks optimisations
18:36:11 <korvo> ais523: Worse, it creates a weak Sapir-Whorf effect: many folks believe that if you cannot turn a pointer to a number or vice versa, then you're unable to program a machine at the lowest level.
18:36:42 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and perl lets you convert a reference to a number in more circumstances, eg. in C you can't just write p/2 to get a number from a pointer, you need either an explicit cast or an assignment or pass as function argument or return from function to cast
18:36:44 <ais523> korvo: the truth is more like "even if you can't turn a pointer to a number or vice versa, you're unable to program a machine at the lowest level"
18:37:49 <ais523> int-e: do those two uses of . even technically conflict with each other?
18:38:30 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, yes, even if exposing the address is useful, it would have made better for perl to require an explicit call for this, so it's there only for compatibility probably
18:38:38 <korvo> ais523: Exactly! I am so lucky that lvh pushed me to learn Forth in my 20s. Definitely helped me be less of a bro.
18:38:43 <int-e> ais523: Hmm I only see one use of .
18:38:44 <ais523> I will say that being able to do an untagged union is helpful for low-level programming, and being able to do a pointer-to-int conversion is one way to do that, but there are alternatives
18:38:57 <ais523> int-e: the other one being the \x. rather than \x-> syntax
18:39:03 <ais523> that ipadwwwww was discussing
18:39:32 <b_jonas> korvo: hmm, do people believe that?
18:39:33 <ais523> korvo: did you see my fizzbuzz? that wasn't quite the lowest level of abstraction possible, but it was close
18:39:41 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, they are wrong but it's a common belief
18:39:48 <int-e> oh you mean, would the syntax become ambiguous if we used . instead of -> ...hmm.
18:40:15 <korvo> What I want to see more of is intrusive tagged unions, e.g. hardware registers where part of the register is a tag and the other part is tag-dependent. I can't think of any languages that elegantly handle this.
18:40:18 <ais523> I guess it's only ambiguous if (.) can be a type constructor
18:40:34 <ais523> and I don't know Haskell well enough to know whether it technically could be or not
18:40:42 <ais523> (it certainly *shouldn't* be)
18:40:43 <int-e> \0.0.0 could be either \0.0 -> 0 or \0 -> 0.0 though :P
18:40:57 <ais523> oh, the float.0 ambiguity, Rust has that one too
18:41:17 <ais523> fortunately, integer literals are not tuples so it's an easy one to decide the correct resolution for
18:41:44 <ais523> ipadwwwww: some languages let you override the basic definitions, e.g. in case you are implementing the standard library
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18:52:14 <korvo> b_jonas: Yeah. Like, the Rust example is good, but it happens *every time* somebody tries to write a kernel. House is a Haskell kernel with a special monad they called H; H is just IO but with the ability to poke and peek registers and allocate memory from an MMU.
18:53:07 <ais523> is there a reason the regular IO monad can't do that?
18:53:26 <korvo> Bootstrapping Forths usually start from poke and peek; I think the classic three-instruction booter is poke, peek, and jump. Poke and peek were how syscalls were done on consumer PCs before OSs, and depending on how you feel about software interrupts they're how syscalls are done today too.
18:53:53 <korvo> ais523: Not really. But that's the sheer reach of the meme.
18:54:03 <b_jonas> ais523: it's probably reasonable to notate your kernel mode capabilities with a different tycon than the more restructed user mode ones
18:54:13 <ais523> oh, on modern x86-64 software interrupts are obsolete as a system call method because they're too slow (although they do still work IIRC)
18:54:42 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, I guess the choice of monad is one way to do capabilities, although it's a bit of a weird way to do it
18:55:11 <korvo> The Objective-Smalltalk guy has a series of rants on this too; he's upset with what he sees as "the gentle tyranny of the call-return paradigm", and I've chatted with him about how this goes all the way to the hardware, making it an example of an even deeper meme than pointer ~= int.
18:55:34 <ais523> nowadays there is a specific instruction for doing syscalls that just does the bare minimum to make them work (it even clobbers two registers to make the implementation faster, which interrupt handlers can't do for obvious reasons)
18:56:11 <korvo> Upcoming hardware is going to have to fight this battle too. The Mill doesn't exist, but CHERI and RISC-V do. ARM also has encrypted/authenticated pointers, which are a nasty nasty hack but also break pointer ~= int.
18:56:14 <ais523> korvo: I was thinking about that for a while, and realised that part of the problem is that call/return often genuinely is the best solution
18:56:38 <ais523> also, I'm disappointed that the Mill still doesn't exist, I thought it was further along than that
18:57:32 <korvo> ais523: Is it? I'd compare specifically with event loops, which don't use the stack quite like call/return does, and also with continuation-oriented stuff that never returns. I know that all of our current implementation techniques reduce to call/return, but I think that that's still a hardware quirk.
18:57:39 <ais523> I had my own idea about how to make a better register-like abstraction which is basically the opposite of what the Mill does – each instruction specifies that its result should be passed to the instruction that runs *n* instructions later (rather than instructions taking their argument from *n* instructions earlier)
18:57:49 <esolangs> [[User:HammyHammerhead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143237&oldid=136086 * HammyHammerhead * (+0) Censor
18:58:14 <ais523> korvo: well, there are plenty of cases where it isn't too
18:58:22 <ais523> but it isn't like goto or int/pointer which are nearly always the wrong solution
18:59:14 <korvo> As of this year, Mill's status is that it's a VM target which isn't open-source yet: https://millcomputing.com/topic/yearly-ping-and-see-how-things-are-going-thread/ So it's not quite where RISC-V is, but not out of the game.
18:59:24 <int-e> ais523: https://wiki.osdev.org/System_Calls#Trap
19:00:00 <ais523> int-e: isn't that even slower than a software interrupt?
19:00:39 <int-e> pretty sure it was chosen because it was a few cycles faster on 32 bit Pentium, somehow.
19:00:44 <korvo> ais523: I might be lost in maths. I had an idea over the summer: the typical register ISA looks like a multicategory if we restrict to straight-line code, and I can extend this to most conditional code too. Only three constructs can't be handled: computed jump, call, and return.
19:01:16 <korvo> If the hardware had an implicit event loop, or an implicit continuation-passing mechanism, then it'd be a perfect fit.
19:01:39 <ais523> how do you handle infinite (or potentially infinite) loops?
19:02:31 <korvo> The multicategory only has total computable arrows.
19:04:10 <ais523> that would make the hardware kind-of useless, if it can't run functions that aren't provably total?
19:04:42 <korvo> This is the ideal of Actor systems, FWIW. Each actor has a very simple small behavior which always returns quickly, and the event loop stitches them together into a Turing-complete system. Thousands of actors per CPU, each one less than a KiB.
19:04:44 <b_jonas> "it even clobbers two registers to make the implementation faster, which interrupt handlers can't do for obvious reasons" => https://esolangs.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer disables interrupts while the accumulator has an overflow
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19:04:57 <b_jonas> because it would be hard for the interrupt handler to save and restore it properly
19:05:15 <b_jonas> sounds like they designed themselves in a corner there
19:05:26 <ais523> korvo: ah, you have non-totality in the event loop itself
19:06:08 <korvo> ais523: Sure. I defeat such memes with reduction to physics. In this case, a CPU's clock constrains how much computation happens per operation, so the CPU already is like an infinite event loop which executes a series of total-computable actions.
19:06:39 <korvo> Yes, exactly. Or the continuations are set up such that a letrec can be built, and so general recursion is possible; that's how the Reduceron computes IIRC.
19:06:59 <ais523> I guess many of my thoughts on the matter are related to thinking that the independent-threads-of-execution model may be wrong or at least inefficient; I'm more of a fan of manual event loops
19:07:21 <ais523> continuations are more interesting, but seem about as low-level as call-return
19:07:51 <korvo> Have you seen microkernels with fast message passing? The common example today is seL4, but L4 or QNX are also good examples.
19:08:09 <ais523> I wrote a VM for combinatory logic a while back which describes the state of the program as three combinators (let's call them a, b, c) that represent an evaluation of the function c(a(b)), but all three are always fully reduced
19:08:36 <korvo> In these systems, if an actor promises to handle a message very quickly and synchronously, then the message can be passed *in registers* and the actor is entered *as a call*. So call/return becomes an *optimization* on top of message-passing semantics.
19:08:42 <ais523> korvo: oh, it's more that I'm thinking about "are these things actually supposed to be fully independent of each other, or not?"
19:09:01 <ais523> I wasn't thinking about the implementation, more about the semantics
19:09:08 <korvo> They start out independent and isolated, and then (to borrow the Go meme) they share memory/resources by communicating.
19:10:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Delta Relay]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143238 * HammyHammerhead * (+0) Created blank page
19:10:36 <ais523> I guess that my mental model of an event loop is that we have a number of tasks/threads/actors/whatever that are each trying to do something, but sometimes they get blocked because they want to perform a blocking action, and sometimes they are not currently blocked, but paused because they were blocked and haven't been explicitly unblocked yet
19:11:26 <korvo> Sure. That model has locks, right? Or some similar resource which supports contention.
19:11:31 <ais523> and that a good event loop works by running until some or possibly all of the threads are blocked, either sequentially or in parallel, then does some I/O and determines which threads got unblocked by it
19:11:55 <ais523> yes, if the threads need to communicate they need some sort of way to contend with each other, and the event loop resolves that
19:11:56 <int-e> ais523: Oh there's context missing. On modern L4, `lock nop` is how you query the base address for the page with all the actual system calls, which presumably use SYSCALL/SYSENTER.
19:11:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Delta Relay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143239&oldid=143238 * HammyHammerhead * (+143) /* Not to be confused... */ new section
19:12:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Delta Relay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143240&oldid=143239 * HammyHammerhead * (+97) /* Not to be confused... */
19:12:44 <ais523> but what I'm thinking about is, is it actually always correct for the threads to continue running after they become blocked?
19:13:07 <ais523> like, in many cases, if they haven't done much work, it makes more sense to discard the work and restart them later, rather than trying to capture their current state
19:13:14 <korvo> My mental model doesn't have locks. Instead, it has explicit backpressure represented by unfulfilled heap allocations (promises/futures). It runs until there's no more messages to deliver.
19:13:17 <ais523> or if there's a deadlock, it's impossible to run both deadlocked threads to completion, one of them has to back out
19:14:06 <ais523> it's possible to imagine a purely revert-based model in which threads start running, and if they discover they're blocked, they undo everything they've done so far
19:14:26 <ais523> and the event loop records the fact that they were blocked, and what they were blocked on, and restarts them once they should now be possible to run
19:14:47 <ais523> that probably isn't very efficient, but it's very appealing from the "ease of programming" point of view, as long as you're not communicating with a system you couldn't easily revert
19:15:21 <ais523> (of course, this means that you need a set of "I/O rules" that actually make it possible for them to gather all the information they need to run to completion in one go)
19:15:33 <korvo> Believe it or not, this is what happens in Cliff Click's JVMs, from Hotspot to Zulu, and it's apparently a winning strategy. You do incentivize your users to not make FFI calls, which can be thousands of times more expensive than native, runtime, or user calls.
19:15:50 <korvo> Your model is like a JVM.
19:16:10 <int-e> "They should probably have used the "UD2" instruction, since it is defined for this purpose." -- but compilers emit UD2 in some cases for code that is supposed to be unreachable and you *really* want that to trap properly instead of executing a system call and running whatever code comes next.
19:16:22 <ais523> there are UD1 and UD0, too
19:16:36 <ais523> I think UD1 might be the one that's most commonly used for syscalls, and UD0 might be undocumented?
19:16:38 <korvo> My model is like E or Monte, but also like JS in a browser or "RPC" packets in a modern cloud app. The difference is that my model is cloud-native; it was intended to be stretched over multiple machines, not just SMP.
19:16:45 <ais523> (the "2" is probably a clue)
19:17:48 <ais523> ooh, UD0 *is* documented, but different processors differ in how many bytes long it is – that's why it's discouraged
19:17:57 <ais523> (it must be one of the very few instructions for which its byte length usually doesn't matter)
19:18:49 <ais523> the manual says that it matters if the third byte of the instruction is on an unloaded page, because that influences whether you get a page fault or an undefined opcode trap
19:19:19 <ais523> but, I guess that usually wouldn't matter either, even if the kernel didn't special-case it!
19:19:43 <korvo> ais523: Oh, an example of my model in production might be the classic iPods. These had two ARM processors. One processor was dedicated to MP3 decoding and the other ran the UI. They only communicated through a scratchpad and mailboxes; they did not share a coherent view of RAM.
19:20:32 <ais523> I don't think my model has a coherent view of RAM either
19:20:39 <korvo> But yeah, message-passing is typically more expensive than direct call/return. It's more expensive than anything else; it has to reify the arguments so that they can be serialized or forwarded, and that's always going to be an expensive prologue.
19:21:00 <ais523> locking doesn't necessarily have to be "I want exclusive access to this memory address", it's more "I want exclusive access to this value" – there's no logical reason why locking can't move a value
19:21:43 <ais523> in fact, I recently realised that, e.g., locking a database row is equivalent to temporarily deleting the row from the database, with a marker specifying not to place another row there yet
19:22:36 <b_jonas> that's like the SNES, which has two CPUs with separate RAM, and they only communicate through 4 to 8 registers
19:23:04 <b_jonas> by registers I mean byte values mapped into both of their memory space
19:24:06 <b_jonas> 4 to 8 because it's 4 registers that kind of have separate values in the two directions, but not quite, they behave in some weird way that I don't understand if you try to use one in both directions
19:24:17 <korvo> Another good example, yeah.
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19:26:00 <ais523> OK, I guess I've clarified my view to: I dislike message-passing because it means that the various threads need to be aware of each other and who they're passing messages too, whereas concurrent programs are much easier to write, and much more reliable, if the threads all work correctly regardless of what other threads exist and what they are doing
19:26:12 <ais523> *who they're passing messages to
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19:26:54 <korvo> ais523: Yes. In our parlance, you are in favor of "global mutable state", and as you say, it's fine as long as the program is correct under that assumption.
19:27:59 <ais523> I guess I would say that I'm in favour of, in situations where mutable state has to exist, programming techniques that mean you don't need to make assumptions on what other programs, or other parts of the same program, may be doing with that state
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19:28:05 <korvo> Most actor systems are going to have some sort of ban on global mutable state. Any kind of mutation is going to be local to individual actors, and some systems might require you to serialize your closure at the end of your action, so that you can't leave a mutation half-done.
19:28:46 <ais523> over the last few weeks I have been actively trying to work out what the correct scope for mutable state is, and I haven't reached any final conclusions yet
19:29:11 <korvo> It'd have to be other parts of the same program, because with global mutable state, *any other program* can stomp your program's state.
19:29:41 <ais523> although my current view (which might well change) is "it could be very local and you can encapsulate it in a call-return type of way without the rest of the call stack ever seeing it; and the rest of the time, global is *usually* correct but not always"
19:30:12 <ais523> korvo: only if there aren't enforced rules on what it does with it
19:30:21 <ais523> I think of reading from a file as a good example
19:30:45 <ais523> this is something that's hard to do efficiently and correctly in languages like Rust – currently, if you memory-map a file in Rust, you get UB if some other process writes to it while you have it mapped
19:31:01 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/16]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143241&oldid=137144 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+23) /* Implementations */
19:31:21 <ais523> but, say you place a mandatory lock on it, or a lease, now you can make your program correct regardless of what other programs might to do it (e.g. by abandoning your current computation if you are requested to abandon the lock)
19:31:30 <korvo> ais523: Okay. So what's the big difference between breaking the whole machine up into an OS enforcing rules on programs, and breaking a whole program up into an event loop enforcing rules on actors/objects/etc?
19:32:14 <ais523> I'm not sure there's a *big* difference; the main difference seems to be that mutable state often feels like something that wants to persist beyond the program
19:32:48 <korvo> Sure, but only at the pleasure of the OS. Similarly, any state that wants to persist beyond an individual actor needs to be communicated via the event loop.
19:32:52 <ais523> like, the main areas of mutable state I've identified are a) algorithms that use mutable state, which is generally neatly encapsulated inside one function/thread, and b) things that could logically be very persistent, even across reboots
19:33:10 <ais523> there are almost certainly others and examples would be helpful
19:34:19 <korvo> Oh, reboots clear all mutable state, in this framing. Persistence is a terminus for mutation. So (b) kind of fades to an opinion rather than something essential.
19:34:47 <ais523> ah; I think that might be a genuine difference of opinion
19:35:11 <ais523> in a way, if you have any mutable state that *isn't* persistent, either a) you didn't need it or b) your program is incorrect if someone kills it / cuts the power / reboots the machine while it is running
19:35:23 <korvo> A file isn't really mutable; each syscall towards it results in a new serialized state, and certainly the underlying disk is usually block-at-a-time. In contrast, SysV/POSIX tools like message queues, shared-memory segments, etc. are global mutable state.
19:35:47 <korvo> Oh, it's always (a). Mutation is always an optimization.
19:36:47 <korvo> Actor systems are encouraged to be transactional and to keep all important state at message boundaries. For example, my raytracers only lose a few pixels of progress if they lose rendering clients. (Losing the rendering server, of course, loses the entire frame. I'm not Pixar.)
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19:37:47 <ais523> but when I think about the programs I want to write, the main options are a) computer games, in which the save file effectively acts like mutable state and most of the games I want to write want to update it continuously as the user plays; b) compilers/build systems, which want to avoid redoing work as much as possible, so the information about what they've done so far is persistent
19:38:54 <ais523> anyway, I guess my main objection is that if I have a mess of actors, and a backup of the messages they were passing around, that is much less usable for unrelated programs than a file in a clearly-documented format would be
19:39:57 <korvo> Sure. Smalltalk images are a practical example, and they're really only useful for resuming progress, not for outputting permanent artifacts.
19:41:40 <korvo> Well, actually, thinking more, a backup of all in-progress messages is equivalent to a core dump, not a nice output. So maybe we're not being apples-to-apples about this.
19:42:23 <ais523> right, my viewpoint is not that the two things are comparable, but that they aren't comparable and that this is a problem with Smalltalk-alikes
19:43:10 <ais523> one really big problem with Smalltalk images, which presumably isn't a problem for the actor images / core dumps, is that they mix code and data, making it hard to use the code you've written on a different set of data, and making it hard to version the two separately
19:43:18 <korvo> On (b), Monte's reference implementation uses Nix and supports per-module incremental builds. For the past two decades, it's purely been an engineering problem. Perhaps there's the meta-problem that we aren't teaching capability theory, which directly leads to content-addressed storage; but git was invented without it.
19:44:20 <ais523> korvo: OK, I'll agree that it makes sense to build a declarative / pure / immutable build system on top of some underlying library that handles the details of optimising it into something that works with mutable state underneath
19:44:45 <ais523> the problem being, that I'm more thinking about how to write the library beneath rather than the program on top of it
19:44:50 <korvo> Right. E-style actors are distinguished by *safe code loading*. Code can only be passed around if it can be serialized, which involves a metaintepreter examining the code's AST and building an equivalent AST which is safe on the wire.
19:45:29 <ais523> so Java has a mechanism for this sort of code passing
19:45:41 <ais523> involving serialised code on the wire, with sandboxing and safety checks
19:45:46 <ais523> it was heavily involved in a previous job of mine
19:45:48 <korvo> Smalltalk totally fails at this. Mark Miller's thesis explains that Java fails at this too, even though they explicitly tried to make code-loaders safe. The problem is that the ambient authority, including global state, included in Java's code-loading is too much.
19:46:13 <ais523> ah good, so you already know why it doesn't really work in Java and I don't have to explain, makes life easier :-)
19:46:36 <korvo> Right, JOSS or whatever. Hilarious source of security vulnerabilities. Got familiar with it when reverse-engineering MineCraft.
19:47:39 <korvo> Anyway, that doesn't happen here. Instead, when the code first tries to be passed on the wire, the E/Monte runtime inspects it, directly reading its AST and private state without calling into it. If the code can be safely serialized, then that's done; otherwise, a reference to the code object is put on the wire.
19:48:01 <ais523> the more interesting question is whether, if you put enough restrictions on this sort of thing to make it actually safe, the result is useful for anything
19:48:17 <korvo> E-style message-passing semantics ensure that a reference to the code will be just as good as the code itself; the code-passing and code-loading is ultimately an optimization.
19:48:31 <ais523> I am not sure on the answer to that; I think maybe it could be, but I also think that attempts to do that are more likely to have subtle mistakes than to be entirely correct
19:49:35 <korvo> Great question! That catches us up to when I entered the scene. The point of Monte is to show that it's possible to write a Monte compiler, a raytracer, a distributed worker, an HTTP server, a TUI app, and a bunch more stuff.
19:50:33 <korvo> Monte sucks and I'm one of only two people to seriously work in it. But also, I can't think of something that can't be done with it; I put in five years of using Monte instead of Python. So I'm confident that it's possible to be safe, tamed, and still shipping.
19:50:51 <korvo> More practically, seL4 exists and I hear it's in cars and planes and satellites and other fun stuff.
19:53:25 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143242&oldid=108290 * Xff * (+108)
19:53:35 <korvo> (And anticipating the next question, Monte's reference implementation spanks Python's reference implementation on apples-for-apples benchmarks like dhrystone.)
19:54:36 <ais523> oh no, I wasn't planning to ask that, basically everything beats Perl/Python on performance unless they call out to a library written in some other language
19:54:42 <ais523> I think maybe INTERCAL is slower? but I'm not sure
19:54:51 <korvo> This is where Cammy came from. CAM-E, a Categorical Abstract Machine for E-style actors. Each actor would run a Cammy expression upon an incoming message. I haven't bothered building up the big impressive parts because nobody cared when I built them last time.
19:55:36 <korvo> But ultimately I think that we needed a code language. The kernel of E was abstracted into Data-E, which would eventually become JSON. Great for data, but terrible for code.
19:56:52 <korvo> And ECMAScript failed to be the future for us. WebAssembly *is* the future; it's capability-safe and isolated by default. But actually doing stuff with WASM sucks too.
19:57:38 <ais523> WASM is *part of* the future, I think – but it feels like one layer in a big software stack and it may be one of the more easily replaceable layers
19:57:59 <korvo> Like, for example, there should be a nice easy compiler from Cammy to WASM. It's just S-expressions, right? But there's no good way to map Cammy's curry/uncurry/apply onto WASM's call/return.
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19:58:27 <korvo> PCWWWWW: Welcome back! I just came full circle. You should consider setting up an IRC bouncer at some point. Not right now, of course.
19:58:36 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143243&oldid=142917 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+97) /* Modulo */
19:58:59 <korvo> ais523: Thanks for listening to my rant. As you can tell, it's a greatest hit. I'm gonna get lunch.
19:59:03 <ais523> korvo: and this is because WASM is at its heart an imperative VM that is supposed to easily capture operations from imperative assembly languages
19:59:17 <PCWWWWW> also any good pun for monads plz. im making an esolang i need a pun and im bad at puns
19:59:36 <korvo> PCWWWWW: An IRC bouncer is an IRC client that is always running on a cloud server or VM somewhere. Your IRC client on your phone would connect to the bouncer. The effect is that the bouncer collects all of the messages since your last connection.
19:59:59 <ais523> korvo: I just use the logs for that – I've never been a huge fan of bouncers
20:00:28 <ais523> the obvious pun on "monad" is that "monad" can refer to either the category-theory concept (which is used in a slightly modified way in Haskell), or "a function that takes one argument"
20:00:43 <ais523> unfortunately, despite being obvious, this pun often doesn't lead to any good jokes
20:00:45 <korvo> ais523: Right. And also a modular system for incorporating other folks' code safely (safe code loading!) And also an interop for JS and the browser with GC handles. And also have syscalls for replacing Docker containers. And on and on. I want a refund on this future.
20:02:03 <PCWWWWW> igot such a stupid joke/pun
20:02:36 <PCWWWWW> ...banosh me from ths realm plz
20:04:00 <ais523> I've been in IRC channels where an op would kick you out of the channel as a joke for saying that, because the opportunity would be too good to pass up – but I tend not to like that moderation style, joking with moderation tools is too easy to misinterpret and can leave people feeling like the rules don't matter
20:04:46 <korvo> PCWWWWW: Do you know what a Kleisli category is yet? (Might have spelled that wrong.) Every monad gives rise to such a category. Could be a more useful way to express your language as well.
20:05:09 <PCWWWWW> also i should prop say what my esolang is
20:05:28 <PCWWWWW> that can be recursie'and then you have an operator that returns the monad of that
20:05:54 <PCWWWWW> you have one built in which is a category of two things
20:06:11 <korvo> Let M be a monad on some category with arrows like f : X → Y. The Kleisli category's arrows are like M(f) : X → M(Y); they're like the original arrows, but they "carry effects" or "carry the monad" of M.
20:06:16 <PCWWWWW> connect to themselves and each other
20:06:55 <korvo> Oh, Leibnitz's monads, I see. Sorry. I thought you were talking about category theory.
20:07:36 <PCWWWWW> technically we *are* but yea
20:07:48 <PCWWWWW> im talking about likethe function monads
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20:11:30 <ais523> I don't think I have an opinion about this
20:11:50 <PCWWWWW> aww:( but im horrible at choises
20:12:03 <ais523> naming things is one of the hardest problems in computer science, but often solving it incorrectly is not a disaster
20:12:13 <korvo> I think that you should develop this concept more without giving it a name.
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20:12:51 <PCWWWWW> wait wat korvo we are talking about category theory
20:13:07 <korvo> I have a related concept, giving an algebra over opetopes (fancy category-like things, don't worry about it) but I have a bunch of open questions that I don't know how to resolve.
20:13:17 <korvo> No name for the concept yet. It's just not clear enough.
20:13:37 <ais523> there are esolangs that took me years to figure out the details of
20:13:44 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Delta_Relay for example
20:13:59 <ais523> I named it after I'd worked out the details, and only spent about a day on the name (which is more than usual)
20:14:48 <korvo> PCWWWWW: Well, I wasn't sure if you were. I don't get the feeling that you know what a monad is yet. And some people take decades to understand what they are, usually because they're not actually reading the definitions.
20:14:57 <PCWWWWW> its just the (which is more than usual)
20:15:33 <ais523> korvo: so I recently came up with something which I suspect isn't a monad, but it acts a lot like one, and I am still trying to figure out exactly what it is and what the rules are
20:15:33 <PCWWWWW> korvo: well isnt a monad of/in X the moinoid of endofunctors in X
20:16:11 <korvo> PCWWWWW: Sure. More specifically, *any* monoid of endofunctors is equivalent to a monad, right?
20:16:43 <PCWWWWW> just if monad is a function then its that way
20:17:01 <ais523> but I feel like I don't have a complete grasp on all the details of the definition yet
20:17:02 <PCWWWWW> and a moinoid is a category with a id element and a totl operator
20:18:45 <zzo38> You had mentioned WebAssembly. I think there are some good ideas with WebAssembly such as being capability-safe like you describe, and that it cannot do I/O by itself, and using a binary format rather than text like JavaScript, also I think is a good idea, but also it has some bad ideas and I think it is badly designed in many ways, too.
20:18:52 <PCWWWWW> in this esolang the id element is just an object with no morphisms other than an endomorphism
20:19:09 <PCWWWWW> and the total operator just returns the first endofunctor
20:19:14 <korvo> ais523: It could be a generalized monad. Monads are the simplest examples of 2-arrows; they can get very fancy. It could also be some sort of algebraic gadget that isn't quite monadic but still obeys some laws. Or maybe it's not well-described categorically.
20:19:30 <PCWWWWW> also how did we get to monads
20:19:39 <ais523> the basic idea is, if I have a lambda calculus expression, and apply it to one or more arguments currying-style, then it will apply some of those arguments to others and this effectively describes its observable behaviour
20:20:22 <korvo> PCWWWWW: Monads show up a lot. They weren't one of the things category theorists wanted to study.
20:20:47 <ais523> and I'm trying to capture the idea of things that can "lift/box" this sort of description of the observable behaviour so that the definition can be applied to "lambda calculus with extras" virtual machines
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20:21:11 <korvo> Adjunctions always give monads. So if you have two related categories, like rings and semirings, then you get a monad. The list monad, state monad, continuation monad, and maybe monad all have underlying adjunctions.
20:21:11 <ais523> but I'm still confused about precisely what it is that I'm trying to do
20:21:52 <ais523> PCWWWWW: category theory mostly doesn't contain things for the sake of it – the concepts of category theory came about because people noticed frequently occurring patterns and wanted a way to mathematically describe them
20:22:01 <korvo> 2-categories give monads as a special case. So if you want to study higher category theory, which arose for other reasons (∞-categories!) then monads naturally appear.
20:22:17 <ais523> it's very common for things to happen to form a monad, so having a way to describe/name the pattern that they follow is useful
20:22:35 <korvo> Yep. The original goal of category theory was to define "natural", particularly in "natural transformation". It wasn't until later that categories became useful on their own.
20:22:51 <PCWWWWW> yes. but like why endofunctors. why monoids. why not with semi groups
20:22:54 <ais523> if I remember correctly, category theory was originally invented because someone had discovered that natural transformations were really common and had useful properties, and wanted a mathematically rigorous way to define them
20:23:45 <ais523> so the reason it's endofunctors is that one of the things that monads have in common is that they can be flattened, e.g. you can flatten a list of lists into a list
20:23:51 <korvo> Endofunctors generalize endofunctions, and endofunctions show up all throughout science. Like, we computer scientists study discrete dynamical systems (DDSs), and physicists study much fancier stuff.
20:23:58 <ais523> but the flattening only makes sense if the outer wrapper and inner wrapper are the same
20:25:43 <korvo> Why not semigroups? *Excellent question*. Like, there's an entire schism about this. You can think of categories as like the minimum viable structure required to talk structurally about structure. Today we call this "formally formal". The semigroup folks were accused of doing "centipede maths", like when a child tortures a bug by ripping off legs.
20:26:35 <ais523> most children don't do that
20:26:52 <korvo> Today I'd recommend just trying your best to not have a bias about it. Think of the first category theory you learn as basic, simple, easy. Nothing complicated. No weird conditions. Just a structure.
20:27:08 <ais523> group theory was discovered before category theory was
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20:28:20 <b_jonas> I have to rip off legs from bugs to understand category theory?
20:28:25 <zzo38> I didn't know that was the original goal of category theory
20:28:38 <ais523> korvo: I just realised that you can think of the relationship between group theory and category theory as being similar to the relationship between untyped and typed languages, except that somehow the addition of multiple objects makes it more powerful even though the addition of multiple types makes it less powerful
20:29:23 <korvo> Oh, I was talking *very specifically* about semigroups, sorry. Should I have understood the question more generally? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centipede_mathematics cites two category theorists and nLab.
20:29:42 <ais523> I guess the difference is that untyped lambda calculus doesn't really care if the operations you're performing don't make sense, most abstraction levels above it work by treating a lot of things as UB and avoiding them rather than working out what they would mean
20:30:22 <korvo> ais523: Yeah. Have you heard of groupoids yet? Every category contains a "core" groupoid, and some type theories work with groupoids first and categories second.
20:31:16 <ais523> korvo: yes as of maybe about 1 or 2 seconds before reading your comment
20:31:26 <ais523> I had heard of magmas earlier, but never looked up the definition (they're the same thing)
20:31:45 <korvo> And then the paradox you mention is resolved by the sheafiness/contravariance of the assignment from a type theory to its category of models. The initial model is "less powerful" in the sense that it can only do what the type theory requires it to do; all of the non-initial models are "more powerful" because they can contain types and operations not specified by the theory.
20:31:54 <zzo38> About programs that act as a HTTP server and you interact with them on a browser through a local tcp connection, I do not think it is a good way to make an interface that's portable among systems, since you might not have a compatible web browser, and it will have other issues, including the security issues you mention. Surely there are simpler ways to do it, especially if the program is local only.
20:32:31 <zzo38> And, the misfeature of Firefox that you mention, at least on my computer I have a old enough version of Firefox that I could add a JavaScript code in an extension to prevent it from displaying non-ASCII characters in the URL.
20:32:31 <ais523> korvo: oh, I hadn't started thinking about it as a paradox, just as an interesting observation
20:32:53 <ais523> I would like a way to get Firefox to escape non-ASCII characters in URLs to make Esolang easier to administer
20:33:16 <ais523> I have ways to see the homoglyphs but it's a pain, and one particular Esolang user seems to be fond of them
20:33:17 <zzo38> Using a web-browser at all is a messy way to handle many things.
20:33:26 <zzo38> ais523: What version of Firefox are you using?
20:33:29 <ais523> indeed, but it is easier that reading raw HTML
20:33:51 <korvo> Okay, I really do need lunch, and the farmer's market's almost closed too. Peace.
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20:36:49 <zzo38> I used the code: window.losslessDecodeURI=function(aURI) { return aURI.spec; }; It is probably not compatible with 131.0 which I think cannot use XPCOM-based extensions, but you might try.
20:37:53 <ais523> I remember when Firefox's major version number was a single low digit
20:38:06 <ais523> I think they increased the rate of increasing the major version number at some point, and am not sure why
20:42:14 <ais523> clearly we need transfinite ordinal version numbers so we can keep accelerating the version number increases indefinitely, including beyond the normal limits
20:44:18 <int-e> it has become a totally meaningless number to me
20:44:39 <int-e> and I think it *is* meaningless; it's one major version per month
20:45:05 <int-e> so just progression of time, no real relation to features or other developments
20:45:21 <zzo38> I would rather use a different web browser since most of them aren't very good, and even Firefox isn't that good I tried to write extensions to improve it but some things still don't work as well as it should do. Furthermore, many things shouldn't need a web browser.
20:49:59 <int-e> I wonder how much hope to put into Ladybird
20:50:57 <int-e> But for the time being, Firefox still feels like the best compromise between evil and usability.
20:52:48 <zzo38> (Another thing I did is I had to modify the binary executable file by a hex editor in order to prevent HSTS from working.)
20:56:55 <zzo38> I would want one that doesn't try to believe they know better than what the user explicitly specifies. It is OK to avoid the use of CSS, and JavaScripts; the ability to write extensions in C would be a good idea, though. Relative URL entry also would be a good idea (another thing I had managed to implement in Firefox by adding a JavaScript code; I dislike the way it normally handles entered URLs)
20:57:17 <esolangs> [[Delta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143244&oldid=98599 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) Stub, categories
20:59:35 <ais523> I dislike the way that browser default CSS is often bad enough that websites have to provide their own
21:00:15 <ais523> although the "reader mode" which applies an entirely different set of CSS as an override is sometimes useful, it's also bad at handling certain constructs like code blocks
21:00:33 <zzo38> I think the browser default CSS is better than what nearly all websites provide. The only thing that I think is missing is: img { max-width: 100%; }
21:01:00 <zzo38> But, regardless of my opinion, the user should apply their own preference of CSS.
21:03:56 <ais523> I tried to write some minimal default CSS for my blog
21:04:24 <ais523> that just fixed some of the worse issues with typical browser default CSS, also that applied colors to syntax-highlighted code blocks
21:04:44 <zzo38> At least the version of Firefox that I have, allows to disable CSS, and I often use that.
21:13:06 <zzo38> However, a problem with that is that pictures that are merely for decoration cannot be excluded by this, and sometimes are made too big (especially SVG pictures).
21:15:14 <esolangs> [[)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143245&oldid=85542 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+22)
21:15:35 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143246&oldid=123773 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+29)
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22:44:27 <esolangs> [[Pile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143247&oldid=115692 * Marc-dantas * (-5654) Blanked the page
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00:03:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated ORK/Mihai Again9]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143248 * None1 * (+274) Created page with "I don't think this is even translatable. --~~~~"
00:06:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143249&oldid=143194 * None1 * (+430) /* Make it WORSE! */
00:11:54 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143250&oldid=143099 * None1 * (+192) /* What I dislike */
00:40:34 <esolangs> [[)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143251&oldid=143245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-26) Merge templates
01:10:23 -!- None1 has joined.
01:11:24 <zemhill> None1.testcode: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
01:11:40 <zemhill> web.ais523_ash: points 9.02, score 49.82, rank 1/47
01:12:32 <None1> !ztest testcode2 (>)*9([-]>)*21
01:12:32 <zemhill> None1.testcode2: points -16.26, score 8.85, rank 47/47
01:12:59 <None1> !ztest testcode3 (>)*9 ( ([-{ ([+{ (+)*9[-] }])%8 }])%4 >)*21
01:12:59 <zemhill> None1.testcode3: points -12.60, score 10.74, rank 47/47
01:13:43 <None1> !ztest testcode4 >+[]<(.)*90
01:13:43 <zemhill> None1.testcode4: points -34.71, score 2.62, rank 47/47
01:13:44 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*9 (+.)*119 (<)*9)*3
01:13:44 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*10 (+.)*118 (<)*10)*3
01:13:45 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*11 (+.)*117 (<)*11)*3
01:13:45 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*12 (+.)*116 (<)*12)*3
01:13:46 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*13 (+.)*115 (<)*13)*3
01:13:46 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*14 (+.)*114 (<)*14)*3
01:13:47 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*15 (+.)*113 (<)*15)*3
01:13:47 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*16 (+.)*112 (<)*16)*3
01:13:48 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*17 (+.)*111 (<)*17)*3
01:13:48 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*18 (+.)*110 (<)*18)*3
01:13:49 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*19 (+.)*109 (<)*19)*3
01:13:49 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*20 (+.)*108 (<)*20)*3
01:13:50 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*21 (+.)*107 (<)*21)*3
01:13:50 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*22 (+.)*106 (<)*22)*3
01:13:51 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*23 (+.)*105 (<)*23)*3
01:13:51 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*24 (+.)*104 (<)*24)*3
01:13:52 <None1> ((+)*256 (>)*25 (+.)*103 (<)*25)*3
01:14:38 <None1> !ztest vibration (-)*127(-+)*100000
01:14:38 <zemhill> None1.vibration: points -15.33, score 9.03, rank 47/47
01:14:56 <None1> !ztest qwerty >(+)*128[](+)*128>(+)*15[-]<[](+)*128>>(+)*15[-]<<[[](+)*128>>[>]->([-{[<+]}])%10<[<]<]
01:14:56 <zemhill> None1.qwerty: points -15.95, score 9.67, rank 47/47
01:17:15 <None1> ^bf "+[-[<<[+[--->]-[<<<]]]>>>-]>-.---.>..>.<<<<-.<+.>>>>>.>.<<.<-."
01:17:45 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
01:18:30 <None1> ^bf >>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<--------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++
01:18:31 <None1> ++>>-]<<.-------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++++>>-]<<.+.>>++++++++[<<-
01:18:31 <None1> --------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.+.--.-----------------.+++++++++++++.-------.--.+++
01:18:32 <None1> ++++++++++.+.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.-----.>>++++++++[<<-----
01:18:32 <None1> ----->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.+++.+++++++.-----------------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++++[<
01:18:33 <None1> <++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++[<<+++++++++
01:18:33 <None1> ++++++>>-]<<.+++.+.++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.---------
01:18:34 <None1> ---.---.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++.---------.-------.+++++++++
01:18:34 <None1> +++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.----------.>>++++++
01:18:35 <None1> [<<----------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.----.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[
01:18:35 <None1> <<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<
01:18:36 <None1> <-------->>-]<<-.++++++++.>>++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+
01:18:36 <None1> ++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>++++[<<-------->>-]<<.[-]++++++++++.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.>>++++[<<--
01:18:37 <None1> ------>>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++++++.---------..>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+
01:18:37 <None1> .>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++++++.--..----.+++++++++++.-------.--------.+++++++++.++++++.>
01:18:38 <None1> >+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++
01:18:38 <None1> ++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.---------------.-------.+++++++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>
01:18:39 <None1> >+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<---------
01:18:50 <None1> >>+<<<]>[<+>-]+>>--[[-]<<->>]<<[->>++++++[<<+++++++++++++>>-]<<.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++
01:18:50 <None1> ++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++
01:18:51 <None1> ++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++.+++++++++++++.
01:18:51 <None1> -----------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>
01:18:52 <None1> +++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<+.-----.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++
01:18:52 <None1> ++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<
01:18:53 <None1> --------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<
01:18:53 <None1> -.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.-------.+++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<
01:18:54 <None1> <+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++
01:18:54 <None1> .+++++++++++.++++++++.---------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.
01:18:55 <None1> +++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++
01:18:55 <None1> +++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++
01:18:56 <None1> .-------.>>++++++[<<------------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++++++.---.++++++.--
01:18:56 <None1> -----.----------.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.---------
01:18:57 <None1> -.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+.++++++++++++++.--------------.++++
01:18:57 <None1> +++++++++.++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.[-]+++
01:18:58 <None1> +++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.++
01:18:58 <None1> +++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>
01:19:10 <None1> <.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.+++..+
01:19:10 <None1> ++++++++.>>++++++[<<------------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.++.+++++.+.+++++.-------.>>++++
01:19:11 <None1> ++[<<---------->>-]<<+.------------.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++++++++++.-.>>+++++++[<<-
01:19:11 <None1> ----------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>++++++[<<------------->>-]<<.>
01:19:12 <None1> >+++++[<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.-------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>
01:19:12 <None1> >-]<<.-----..>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.-----------.++++++++++++
01:19:13 <None1> +++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.-----.>>++++++++[<<---------->>
01:19:13 <None1> -]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.------------------.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<--------
01:19:14 <None1> --->>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.++++++++.>>+++++
01:19:14 <None1> [<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.------------------.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<-.>>
01:19:15 <None1> ++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++.>>+++++[<<--------------->>-]<<.[-]++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<++
01:19:15 <None1> +++++++>>-]<<.>>++++++[<<++++++>>-]<<+.+++++.----------.-----.+.>>+++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.--------
01:19:16 <None1> ----.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.------------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++
01:19:16 <None1> ++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++++.+++++.------------.>>++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++
01:19:17 <None1> ++>>-]<<.+++.+.++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.------------
01:19:17 <None1> ---.-------.+++++++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.>>+++++
01:19:18 <None1> ++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.+++..+++++++++.>>++++++[<<------------->>-]<<.
01:19:18 <None1> >>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.------.+++++.-------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<-.>>++++++++
01:19:30 <None1> +++++++>>-]<<.-----..>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.++++++++++.---.++++
01:19:30 <None1> +.----------.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.-----.>>++++++++[<<------
01:19:31 <None1> ---->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.--------------..[-]]<<<]
01:19:32 <None1> ^bf ">>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<--------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++
01:19:32 <None1> ++>>-]<<.-------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++++>>-]<<.+.>>++++++++[<<-
01:19:33 <None1> --------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.+.--.-----------------.+++++++++++++.-------.--.+++
01:19:33 <None1> ++++++++++.+.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.-----.>>++++++++[<<-----
01:19:34 <None1> ----->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.+++.+++++++.-----------------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++++[<
01:19:34 <None1> <++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++[<<+++++++++
01:19:35 <None1> ++++++>>-]<<.+++.+.++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.---------
01:19:35 <None1> ---.---.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++.---------.-------.+++++++++
01:19:36 <None1> +++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.----------.>>++++++
01:19:36 <None1> [<<----------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.----.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[
01:19:37 <None1> <<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<
01:19:37 <None1> <-------->>-]<<-.++++++++.>>++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+
01:19:38 <None1> ++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>++++[<<-------->>-]<<.[-]++++++++++.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.>>++++[<<--
01:19:38 <None1> ------>>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++++++.---------..>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+
01:19:39 <None1> .>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++++++.--..----.+++++++++++.-------.--------.+++++++++.++++++.>
01:19:50 <None1> -.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.------------.++++++++++.------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++
01:19:50 <None1> +++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>
01:19:51 <None1> >-]<<+.-------.----------.+.+++++++++++++.+.+.-------------------.+++++++++++++.----------.[-]]<[->+
01:19:51 <None1> >>+<<<]>[<+>-]+>>--[[-]<<->>]<<[->>++++++[<<+++++++++++++>>-]<<.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++
01:19:52 <None1> ++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++
01:19:52 <None1> ++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++.+++++++++++++.
01:19:53 <None1> -----------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>
01:19:53 <None1> +++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<+.-----.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++
01:19:54 <None1> ++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<
01:19:54 <None1> --------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<
01:19:55 <None1> -.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.-------.+++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<
01:19:55 <None1> <+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++
01:19:56 <None1> .+++++++++++.++++++++.---------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.
01:19:56 <None1> +++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++
01:19:57 <None1> +++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++
01:19:57 <None1> .-------.>>++++++[<<------------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++++++.---.++++++.--
01:19:58 <None1> -----.----------.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.---------
01:19:58 <None1> -.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+.++++++++++++++.--------------.++++
01:20:10 <None1> +[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.----.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.+++.-.-----
01:20:10 <None1> --.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.---.>>+++++++++[<<----
01:20:11 <None1> ----->>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<.---.----.+++++++++++++++++.++.>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<
01:20:11 <None1> <.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.+++..+
01:20:12 <None1> ++++++++.>>++++++[<<------------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.++.+++++.+.+++++.-------.>>++++
01:20:12 <None1> ++[<<---------->>-]<<+.------------.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++++++++++.-.>>+++++++[<<-
01:20:13 <None1> ----------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>++++++[<<------------->>-]<<.>
01:20:13 <None1> >+++++[<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.-------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>
01:20:14 <None1> >-]<<.-----..>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.-----------.++++++++++++
01:20:14 <None1> +++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.-----.>>++++++++[<<---------->>
01:20:15 <None1> -]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.------------------.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<--------
01:20:15 <None1> --->>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.++++++++.>>+++++
01:20:16 <None1> [<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.------------------.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<-.>>
01:20:16 <None1> ++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++.>>+++++[<<--------------->>-]<<.[-]++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<++
01:20:17 <None1> +++++++>>-]<<.>>++++++[<<++++++>>-]<<+.+++++.----------.-----.+.>>+++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.--------
01:20:17 <None1> ----.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.------------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++
01:20:18 <None1> ++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++++.+++++.------------.>>++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++
01:20:18 <None1> ++>>-]<<.+++.+.++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.------------
01:20:30 <None1> .---------------.+++++++..>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.--------.>>++
01:20:30 <None1> +++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>++++++[<<-------------
01:20:31 <None1> >>-]<<.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.-------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<+++++
01:20:31 <None1> +++++++>>-]<<.-----..>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.++++++++++.---.++++
01:20:32 <None1> +.----------.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.-----.>>++++++++[<<------
01:20:32 <None1> ---->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.--------------..[-]]<<<]"
01:21:25 <None1> ^bf >>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<--------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.-------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++++>>-]<<.+.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.+.--.-----------------.+++++++++++++.-------.--.+++++++++++++.+.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>
01:21:25 <None1> >+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.-----.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.+++.+++++++.-----------------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.+++.+.++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.-----
01:21:26 <None1> -------.---.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++.---------.-------.++++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.----------.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.----.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+++++++++++.>>++++++++[<
01:21:26 <None1> <---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.++++++++.>>++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>++++[<<-------->>-]<<.[-]++++++++++.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.>>++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++++++.---------..>>+++++++[<<----------->>-
01:21:27 <None1> ]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++++++.--..----.+++++++++++.-------.--------.+++++++++.++++++.>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.---------------.-------.+++++++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<------->>-]
01:21:27 <None1> <<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.------------.+.+++++.---.--.+++++.-------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<-.---------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.----
01:21:28 <None1> ----.++++++.---------.--------.++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.--.+++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.------------.+.++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.++++++++++++.---.--
01:21:28 -!- X-Scale has joined.
01:21:28 <None1> .>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.+++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<-.+++++.------------.---.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++++++++.++++.[-]>++>>++>>++>>+>>+++>>++>>++>>++++>>+++>>++>>+[>++++++++++..[-]<[->+>>+<<<]>[<+>-
01:21:29 <None1> ]+>>-[[-]<<->>]<<[->>++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.+++++++++++.--.+.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.----------------------.+++++++++++++..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.---------------.+++++++..>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]
01:21:29 <None1> <<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++.++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.-..+++++++.---.+++++.-------.[-]++++++++++.>>++
01:21:30 <None1> ++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<.+++++..-------------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.------------.++++++++++.------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<+.-------.----------.+.+++++++++++++.+.+.
01:21:30 <None1> -------------------.+++++++++++++.----------.[-]]<[->+>>+<<<]>[<+>-]+>>--[[-]<<->>]<<[->>++++++[<<+++++++++++++>>-]<<.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++.++++++++++
01:21:31 <None1> +++.-----------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<+.-----.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+
01:21:31 <None1> .++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.-------.+++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+++++++++++.++++++++.---------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]
01:21:32 <None1> <<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++.-------.>>++++++[<<------------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++++++.---.++++++.-------.----------.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<-
01:21:32 <None1> -.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.----------.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+.++++++++++++++.--------------.+++++++++++++.++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.----------------
01:21:33 <None1> -.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.------------.++++++++++.------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++++
01:21:33 <None1> .+++++++.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.------------------.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<-.>>
01:24:29 <JAA> There was an attempt to rickroll the channel.
01:25:09 -!- None1 has quit (Quit: Client closed).
01:25:42 -!- None1 has joined.
01:27:06 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
01:27:36 <b_jonas> None1: you can actually use the ^str set and ^str add commands to execute more than one line of brainfuck
01:29:00 <None1> ^str 0 set >>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<--------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.-------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++++>>-]<<.+.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.+.--.-----------------.+++++++++++++.-------.--.+++++++++++++.+.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-
01:29:00 <fungot> Set: >>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<--------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.-------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++++>>-]<<.+.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.+.--.-----------------.+++++++++++++.-------.--.+++++++++++++.+.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-
01:29:00 <None1> ]<<--.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.-----.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.+++.+++++++.-----------------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++++++>>-]<<.+++.+.++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<
01:29:01 <None1> <.------------.---.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++.---------.-------.++++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.----------.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.----.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+++++++++++.>>+++
01:29:01 <None1> +++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.++++++++.>>++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>++++[<<-------->>-]<<.[-]++++++++++.>>+++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.>>++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++++++++++.---------..>>+++++++[<<-------
01:29:02 <None1> ---->>-]<<+.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++++++.--..----.+++++++++++.-------.--------.+++++++++.++++++.>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.---------------.-------.+++++++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<----
01:29:02 <None1> --->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.------------.+.+++++.---.--.+++++.-------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<-.---------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<-.++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<
01:29:03 <None1> <-.--------.++++++.---------.--------.++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.--.+++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.------------.+.++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<--.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.++++++++++++
01:29:03 <None1> .---.--.>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.+++++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<-.+++++.------------.---.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++++++++.++++.[-]>++>>++>>++>>+>>+++>>++>>++>>++++>>+++>>++>>+[>++++++++++..[-]<[->+>>+<<<
01:29:04 <None1> ]>[<+>-]+>>-[[-]<<->>]<<[->>++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.+++++++++++.--.+.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.----------------------.+++++++++++++..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<.---------------.+++++++..>>+++++++[<<--------
01:29:04 <None1> --->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<.+++++++.++++++++.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<------->>-]<<+.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<----------->>-]<<.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<.-..+++++++.---.+++++.-------.[-]++++++++
01:29:05 <None1> ++.>>++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.>>+++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<.+++++..-------------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.------------.++++++++++.------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<+.-------.----------.+.+++++++++++
01:29:05 <None1> ++.+.+.-------------------.+++++++++++++.----------.[-]]<[->+>>+<<<]>[<+>-]+>>--[[-]<<->>]<<[->>++++++[<<+++++++++++++>>-]<<.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++.+++
01:29:06 <None1> ++++++++++.-----------------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++++>>-]<<+.-----.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++
01:29:06 <None1> >>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<-.-------.+++++++++++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+++++++++++.++++++++.---------.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<+++
01:29:07 <None1> +++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<+.+++.-------.>>++++++[<<------------->>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++++++.---.++++++.-------.----------.>>++++++[<<-----------
01:29:07 <None1> >>-]<<--.>>++++++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<+.+++++++++++++.----------.>>++++++[<<----------->>-]<<--.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.+.++++++++++++++.--------------.+++++++++++++.++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.---------
01:29:08 <None1> --------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<.------------.++++++++++.------.>>+++++++[<<---------->>-]<<+.>>++++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.----------.++++++.>>+++++++[<<------------>>-]<<-.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++
01:29:08 <None1> +++++++.+++++++.[-]++++++++++.>>++++++[<<+++++++++++>>-]<<++.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<-.+++++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++.>>+++++++++[<<--------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++[<<++++++++++>>-]<<+.++++++++.-..-------------.>>++++++++[<<-------->>-]<<-.>>+++++++++[<<+++++++++>>-]<<++.------------------.>>++++[<<++++++>>-]<<.>>++++++++[<<----------->>-
01:31:39 <b_jonas> it's like ^str 0 set for the first line, then ^str 0 add for subsequent lines to append to buffer 0, and then there's some way to define a function using the contents of that buffer as the body but I'm not sure how
01:33:48 <None1> I give up, the program is much longer than 10 times the maximum line length
01:36:46 <b_jonas> None1: fetch it into HackEso and execute it there
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01:50:39 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143252&oldid=143212 * Ais523 * (+4436) /* 2024 */ add ais523.ash
02:02:44 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
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02:33:49 <esolangs> [[Gofe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143253&oldid=116544 * None1 * (+0)
02:35:44 <FireFly> ^bf https://f7.re/t/test.txt
02:36:01 <FireFly> wait actually that wouldn't work anyway, that's https://
02:36:27 <FireFly> (was just studying the https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98#L277 part of fungot)
02:36:27 <fungot> FireFly: eval ( lambda x " snakes on a plane") " rn" ( html " rn" ( windows). :p as a result, and so
02:37:05 <FireFly> though that might only be a branch for the ^def I guess
02:54:22 <b_jonas> got it, you define a command from a string like ^def commandname bf str:0
02:54:29 <b_jonas> it's all there in the help actually, I was just blind
02:54:32 <fungot> ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
02:58:53 <FireFly> yeah, I saw that, but was wondering why it also parses http:
02:59:02 <FireFly> well at least according to the sources in the github repo
03:11:47 <b_jonas> ^bf ++++++++++[->+>+<<]>[->[->+>+>+<<<]>[-<+>]><<<]>>>--->++++[----<.+>]
03:11:47 <fungot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
03:13:57 <b_jonas> ^bf ++++++++++[->+>+<<]>[->[->+>+>+<<<]>[-<+>]><<<]>>>--->[----<.+>]>.
03:13:57 <fungot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxy
03:14:04 <b_jonas> ^bf ++++++++++[->+>+<<]>[->[->+>+>+<<<]>[-<+>]><<<]>>>--->[----<.+>]<.
03:14:04 <fungot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
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04:20:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:DJN OISC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143254 * Gggfr * (+110) Created page with "wheres the proof that this is TC? ~~~~"
04:27:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Arctenik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143255&oldid=96267 * Gggfr * (+121)
04:32:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:SS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143256&oldid=105829 * Gggfr * (+137) /* Hmmm */
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04:47:51 <ipadwwwww> if somebody answered my qeustion or something then i cant see it cuz it aint on the logs so resend olz
04:49:05 <esolangs> [[FerNANDo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143257&oldid=125448 * Gggfr * (+0) /* See also */ stringle is not inspired by fernando
04:49:41 <esolangs> [[FerNANDo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143258&oldid=143257 * Gggfr * (-7) /* See also */
04:51:20 <esolangs> [[Category talk:String-based]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143259 * Gggfr * (+96) Created page with "was this discussed? ~~~~"
04:52:33 <esolangs> [[NeverGonna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143260&oldid=136254 * None1 * (+111) /* Interpreter */
04:52:48 <esolangs> [[NeverGonna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143261&oldid=143260 * None1 * (+11) /* Computational class */
04:52:57 <esolangs> [[NeverGonna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143262&oldid=143261 * None1 * (+0) /* Computational class */
04:53:13 <esolangs> [[NeverGonna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143263&oldid=143262 * None1 * (+29) /* See also */
04:56:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:SS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143264&oldid=143256 * Gggfr * (+1) /* Hmmm */
04:58:15 <ipadwwwww> so a TC esolang that only uses abiguity detection in itself
05:00:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:$ $]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143265 * Gggfr * (+106) Created page with "isnt sus++ going to be made:( ~~~~"
05:00:37 <korvo> ipadwwwww: No, I'm not seeing it in the logs either. What kind of ambiguities?
05:01:02 <ipadwwwww> like undefined edge cases n` stuff
05:04:20 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143266&oldid=142847 * Unname4798 * (+0)
05:05:16 <ipadwwwww> and maybe when detected the program can define what happens
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05:14:58 <esolangs> [[SSREPL```]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143267 * Gggfr * (+209) Created page with "'''SSREPL```''' is SSREPL but with one small change such that io is not needed. the string just starts at emptystring. to add domething to the at the start you just replace nothing with the string making it TC"
05:19:12 <korvo> Well, there's Common Lisp conditions and restarts, so the overall concept is workable. But your description is unclear.
05:25:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:AnimaLibera]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143268 * Gggfr * (+124) Created page with "do you maybe want to make an esolang with me? ~~~~^^"
05:27:30 <korvo> Why make a language at that point? Instead I'd recommend learning a little bit of Common Lisp, seeing how conditions and restarts work.
05:28:01 <korvo> ...Well, actually, I recommend *reading* about Common Lisp, in this case. But yeah.
05:28:33 <ipadwwwww> also i need ppl to check my shit every now and then cuz
05:28:37 <korvo> Syntax is the boring part. I don't understand why so many contributors are focused on it.
05:29:14 <korvo> Sure, no worries. I understand; I make mistakes all the time and I rely on the community to tell me when I'm wrong.
05:30:44 <ipadwwwww> imma do like a google doc and thne ill get some help with that kinda stuff
05:36:20 <ipadwwwww> here the very short doc is: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IH1S8zOu3T0pO3LXJTXLkQjD4bXlL1cvtEYbSXpbPdo/edit?usp=sharing
05:37:57 <zzo38> I had read about the conditions/restarts in Lisp, and I think it is a good idea.
05:37:58 <esolangs> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143269&oldid=140460 * Gggfr * (+21)
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05:53:02 <esolangs> [[(]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143270&oldid=103422 * Ractangle * (+3)
05:53:21 <esolangs> [[(]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143271&oldid=143270 * Ractangle * (+3)
05:53:44 <esolangs> [[Unhappy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143272&oldid=104948 * Ractangle * (+4)
05:53:48 <ipadwwwww> so korvo as of currentky how is the concept?
05:55:12 <esolangs> [[Kipple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143273&oldid=142373 * None1 * (+38) /* Cat */
05:55:56 <korvo> ipadwwwww: I'm reminded of when my friend and I were about your age and my friend tried to implement a video game by typing "do a football game" into a .cpp file and then renaming it to a .exe file. This was long before code-generating chatbots, too.
05:56:48 <korvo> ipadwwwww: Have you heard of "worldbuilding"? The idea is that, when writing a fictional universe, an author might prepare a context for that universe.
05:57:18 <korvo> Every language, including every programming language, should have some worldbuilding. What motivates the language? What features did it evolve? What features distinguish it from other languages?
05:58:01 <ipadwwwww> motivation: ambiguity is a big issue when describing things, BUT what if it was functionality
05:58:18 <korvo> It doesn't have to be good worldbuilding. There was a trend in the 2010s to create fairly boring bytecode VMs but dress them up as "on spaceships" or "made by aliens" or "for after apocalyptic nuclear war" or etc.
05:59:01 <korvo> Okay. Do you know about dynamic scope? This might be a culture shock if you've only seen lexical scope so far.
05:59:08 <ipadwwwww> features: edge case detection, nonTCness forcing, language creation, subprogramming
05:59:30 <ipadwwwww> idk what you mean scope. when i think scope isnt like brackets n stuff?
06:00:36 <korvo> Yeah, that's scope. In some languages, mostly older ones, scope is *dynamic* at runtime; the current context's names are determined by what's been evaluated already in your program.
06:01:13 <ipadwwwww> sorry i just dont know termenology
06:01:16 <korvo> But, starting roughly with Scheme, there was a big push to make all scopes *lexical*, which is another way of saying *syntactic scope*: the context is determined by reading the source code.
06:01:49 <ipadwwwww> dynamic is more easy to understand i think
06:01:59 <ipadwwwww> buuuut lexical i prop more usefull
06:02:36 <korvo> There are advantages and disadvantages. Lexical scoping is easier to compile and maintain, but dynamic scoping occurs all the time in daily life.
06:03:00 <korvo> Natural language is usually dynamically scoped. In here, "lisp" refers to a family of languages rather than a speech pathology.
06:09:00 <korvo> Like, everything happens in a context. And a name is just a way to refer to something in a context. These are the usual English meanings of "context" and "name", but they're philosophy concepts that go deep.
06:09:33 <ipadwwwww> so the context name of some context is the way to represent it?
06:09:46 <korvo> How about Python? Names like `len` are part of a "global" scope. You can actually get a dict of this scope with the `globals` builtin.
06:10:35 <korvo> There are a bunch of other scopes, but for now, the point is just that Python's global scope is somewhat dynamic. Most accesses to the global scope are done at runtime, not in the compiler.
06:11:09 <zzo38> PostScript uses the dictionary stack to resolve names, although you can use // to resolve it when it is parsed, normally it is resolved when it is executed. The "bind" command replaces names that refer to operators with the operators that they refer to.
06:11:19 <ipadwwwww> also i got such a bad pun for my monad esolang
06:11:47 <korvo> Sure, that's a name. I still have no idea what your esolang is supposed to be.
06:11:56 <ipadwwwww> abd a monad can be a functiin with ine inout
06:14:12 <korvo> zzo38: Good times.
06:15:01 <korvo> Forths can get pretty silly. The typical Forth will actually have two contexts; one is just for compiling and one is for executing. But you can compile while executing and execute while compiling.
06:16:55 <zzo38> Yes, Forth does work like that, although PostScript is not Forth and does not use a separate context. Instead. a {} block will cause it to create an array with the tokens that are parsed inside of the {} block and then the entire {} block counts as a single token whose value is that array.
06:17:00 <korvo> Note that we're talking about *names* specifically. In Forth, a name refers to an action that's going to happen; in Python or Scheme, a name refers to an object allocated in memory. But we can compare them in terms of when those names are resolved.
06:17:41 <korvo> Ah, right. Are those genuine quotations, or more like execution tokens? Doesn't matter, just curious.
06:17:44 <zzo38> (You could use the "token" operator to read tokens yourself and handle them yourself; but if you don't do that then normally it will just execute each token that is read unless it is an array>0
06:17:55 <esolangs> [[ErrorLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143274&oldid=132902 * PrySigneToFry * (+36)
06:18:34 <korvo> Oh, fancy quotations. Nifty.
06:19:54 <zzo38> Each token produces a value, which, when read, is then immediately executed unless it is an array. The {} block is a single token containing other tokens, whose value is an array, so it is not executed. Any token that is not executed is pushed to the stack instead; this includes all tokens that are not executable. A name starting with / is not executable but if it does not start with / then it is executable.
06:20:49 <zzo38> Numeric tokens also are not executable, etc. However, any value can be made executable with "cvx" or not executable with "cvlit"; the "exec" operator will execute a value if it is executable (and if "executable" is meaningful for that value; for numbers it isn't meaningful).
06:21:15 <zzo38> Executing an array will push that array to the execution stack, and will execute each of the elements of that array in order.
06:21:27 <korvo> Aha, so the intent was that you could use / to do the same thing as `immediate` or `compile` in Forth? Hopefully there's no `does>`.
06:21:32 <ipadwwwww> hey korvo i updated the doc with the *worldbuilding* and a way to detect TCness
06:22:58 <zzo38> PostScript doesn't have "does". The / just makes a name token to be not executable, e.g. /Xyz {6 7 mul} def will add to the current dictionary, the key being the name "Xyz" and the value being the array "{6 7 mul}". If you then write "Xyz" without the slash, it refers to the same name but is executable. Executing a name looks it up in the dictionary stack and then executes whatever it refers to.
06:23:00 <korvo> ipadwwwww: Okay. It sounds like magic, but whatever works for you.
06:23:20 <zzo38> It isn't like the "immediate" and "compile" in Forth.
06:23:23 <ipadwwwww> what sounds like macig specifically?
06:23:43 <korvo> ipadwwwww: The entire thing, sorry. It doesn't sound like a coherent concept of language, machine, or computation.
06:23:59 <zzo38> Writing something like "//Xyz" will look it up in the dictionary stack at the time it is parsed instead of at the time it is executed, and the value of the token is whatever value is found in the dictionary.
06:24:35 <ipadwwwww> how(im trying to fix the problem lol)
06:24:57 <korvo> zzo38: Huh. That's a very sane way to deal with use-mention problems. Reminds me of '' syntax in Template Haskell, which lets us mention types and typeclasses without literally using them.
06:24:58 <zzo38> For example, if you then write "//Xyz" with the definition above currently present (even if //Xyz is inside of another {} block) then the value of the token is that array; since it is an array, it is not automatically executed.
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06:26:00 <korvo> ipadwwwww: All a computer can do is manipulate abstract symbols. It can't read your mind and guess what you wanted it to do. This has been a recurring theme in your language designs.
06:26:02 <zzo38> (An array also is not executed when encountered as an element of an array that is currently being executed, in addition to not executed when read as a token.)
06:26:17 <ipadwwwww> but like define commands with a given syntax
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06:27:19 <zzo38> The name "mul" refers to an operator, so writing "{6 7 //mul}" will create an array with two numbers and the multiplication operator, rather than containing the executable name "mul" like the definition above. Since an operator is not an array, it will still be executed when encountered while executing that array, but does not need to be looked up in the dictionary so it is faster.
06:28:34 <zzo38> Hopefully, that explanation helps.
06:29:09 <korvo> It's certainly interesting and I appreciate it.
06:29:16 <ipadwwwww> so korvo it is possible cuz emmental is.
06:30:03 <zzo38> (PostScript has many stacks, including the operand stack, execution stack, dictionary stack, graphics stack, clipping path stack, etc. A program that does not do any graphics probably will not need the graphics stack and clipping path stack, although they can be used to do calculations with shapes and stuff even if a program does not produce any graphical output.)
06:30:05 <korvo> ipadwwwww: That's not what self-modification means.
06:30:49 <korvo> Nothing about Emmental gives it a special ability to guess what the user meant or correct itself.
06:31:40 <ipadwwwww> with umbiguity i mean places where the program does something which makes the computer have an error
06:32:34 <korvo> Oh. Those never are for the user. They're either for you the language designer, or they're in the hardware.
06:34:06 <ipadwwwww> so korvo it would work that way right
06:34:11 <korvo> Like, when the computer is erroring, what actually happens is that the computer is in a normal healthy state which *we say is an error*. Error handling just means presenting this normal state to the user and asking them to feel bad about it.
06:34:54 <ipadwwwww> ”and asking them to feel bad about it” XX
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06:36:23 <korvo> If you want to continually ask the user what to do next, then that's a REPL. You can have a REPL that handles exceptions, or that handles conditions/restarts, so that the user can tell erroring states what to do next too.
06:37:56 <korvo> I think sometimes your language ideas are actually ideas about tools like REPLs or libraries like linters. It's important to know the difference because tool ideas are easy to borrow.
06:40:18 <korvo> Of course you can! REPLs are not magic; they're literally Reading an expression, Evaluating it, Printing the result, and Looping back to the beginning.
06:41:31 <ipadwwwww> not an originak esolang idea i came up with
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06:42:37 <korvo> I wish they wouldn't measure their self-worth in the number of languages they claim to invent.
06:45:09 <esolangs> [[Kipple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143275&oldid=143273 * None1 * (+86) /* Operators */
06:47:16 <esolangs> [[Kipple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143276&oldid=143275 * None1 * (+393) /* External resources */
06:47:29 <esolangs> [[Kipple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143277&oldid=143276 * None1 * (-1) /* External resources */
06:48:39 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143278&oldid=140695 * None1 * (+13) +[[Kipple]]
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08:02:28 <esolangs> [[AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH/Extension]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143279 * PrySigneToFry * (+2102) Created page with ":Main Page: [[AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH]] == MATH == {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! CMD !! Meaning |- | <code><nowiki>THE SINE VALUE OF [A]</nowiki></code> || sin(A) |- | <code><nowiki>THE COSINE VALUE OF [A]</nowiki></code> || cos(A)
08:03:31 <esolangs> [[AH'TALIQUAE ENGLISH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143280&oldid=141230 * PrySigneToFry * (+113)
08:32:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:AnimaLibera]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143281&oldid=143268 * Ractangle * (+216)
08:37:36 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again13]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143282 * PrySigneToFry * (+2228) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/Mihai Again9|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: Wrong Windows versj" j+{$M??}?}WD_??}?}u?O4bD?k??#??? ???? ???zuHH+B?u.LH? ?LH? H$( H$ E3m? 3$0?3$0HHH??hVcW?</span>]] 1. Take This }?}u?O4bD?..."
08:37:54 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143283&oldid=143190 * PrySigneToFry * (+30)
08:38:16 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143284&oldid=143191 * PrySigneToFry * (+65)
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08:52:59 <esolangs> [[fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143285 * None1 * (+997) Created page with "fuck is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. It is derived from [[brainfuck]]. ==Tape== The tape can contain unbounded real numbers. All cells are 1 at the start, unlike brainfuck. ==Commands== <math>p</math> represents the current cell value. < >: The same in bf +: <mat
08:53:48 <esolangs> [[Translated !]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143286 * PrySigneToFry * (+5318) Created page with "Translated ! is an Esolang that designed by PSTF. It is [[!]] but translated by a lot of s**tty translators. 1. Take this program <pre> SRC . SRC . > . < . ^ . v . ? ..."
08:54:55 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143287&oldid=143284 * PrySigneToFry * (+75)
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09:14:13 <esolangs> [[fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143288&oldid=143285 * None1 * (+17) /* Commands */
09:18:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143289&oldid=143265 * None1 * (+357)
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10:58:36 <esolangs> [[SETANDCOUNT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143290 * Cycwin * (+835) Created page with "==Introduction & Syntax== SETANDCOUNT (SAC for short) is a language for storing in an ordered list.There is SAC syntax: *Numbers 1-8:Add 1 to the first n (input number) items in the list. If the item added to the list is less than 0, add the opposite number of items t
11:03:12 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143291&oldid=140591 * Cycwin * (+16)
11:06:48 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143292&oldid=143172 * Ractangle * (+217)
11:06:59 <esolangs> [[User:Unname4798]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143293&oldid=143266 * PrySigneToFry * (+40)
11:08:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/About more Categories]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143294&oldid=141030 * Ractangle * (-245)
11:09:15 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143295&oldid=142935 * PrySigneToFry * (+150)
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11:11:23 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143296&oldid=143295 * Ractangle * (-35)
11:12:21 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143297&oldid=143292 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Hello, world! */
11:17:31 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143298&oldid=143297 * Ractangle * (+110) /* Hello, world! */
11:18:25 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143299&oldid=143298 * Ractangle * (+20) /* Hello, world! */
11:19:56 <esolangs> [[Template:Ss]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143300 * Ractangle * (+38) Created page with "­ <noinclude>{{Ss/doc}}<noinclude>"
11:20:46 <esolangs> [[Template:Ss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143301&oldid=143300 * Ractangle * (+1)
11:21:29 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143302&oldid=143299 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
11:21:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Template:Ss]] to [[Template:H]]
11:22:01 <esolangs> [[Template:H]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143305&oldid=143303 * Ractangle * (-1)
11:23:02 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143306&oldid=143302 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Hello, world! */
11:26:23 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143307&oldid=143306 * Ractangle * (+85) /* Syntax */
12:26:08 <esolangs> [[Template:H]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143308&oldid=143305 * Ractangle * (+25)
12:29:17 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143309&oldid=143307 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Hello, world! */
12:29:50 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143310&oldid=142953 * Ractangle * (-39)
12:30:08 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143311&oldid=143310 * Ractangle * (-18)
12:30:22 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143312&oldid=143311 * Ractangle * (-45)
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12:31:20 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143313&oldid=143309 * Ractangle * (+14) /* Hello, world! */
12:32:05 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143314&oldid=143313 * Ractangle * (-25) /* Hello, world! */
12:32:28 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143315&oldid=143314 * Ractangle * (+25)
12:59:17 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143316&oldid=143315 * Ractangle * (+87) /* Hello, world! */
13:24:06 <esolangs> [[Olus2000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143317&oldid=143226 * Dolphy * (-10)
13:26:50 <esolangs> [[TDML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143318&oldid=140102 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+45) /* Computational class */
13:36:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:DJN OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143319&oldid=143254 * Ais523 * (+540) the proof's at the external resource, but the language has some conceptual issues
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15:19:11 <esolangs> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143320&oldid=143269 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+51) /* Palindromic quine */
15:21:02 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143321 * Ais523 * (+79893) split from [[BF Joust strategies]], which is becoming much too long
15:21:32 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143322&oldid=143252 * Ais523 * (-79885) split the major programs onto [[BF Joust champions]]
15:21:37 <esolangs> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143323&oldid=143320 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Looping counter */
15:22:27 <esolangs> [[BF Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143324&oldid=142949 * Ais523 * (+41) /* Strategies */ link the champions page
15:47:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143325&oldid=141005 * Ractangle * (+67) /* Languages */
15:51:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143326&oldid=143325 * Ractangle * (-67) /* Languages */
15:57:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Ractangle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:The dark reader at home.jpg]]"
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16:22:09 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143328&oldid=143316 * Ractangle * (+51) /* Hello, world! */
16:25:58 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143329&oldid=143328 * Ractangle * (+9) /* Examples */
16:29:53 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143330&oldid=143329 * Ractangle * (+89) /* Hello, world! */
16:30:17 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143331&oldid=143330 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Hello, world! */
16:30:48 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143332&oldid=143331 * Ractangle * (-18) /* Syntax */
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16:33:36 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143333&oldid=143332 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Hello, world! */
16:33:52 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143334&oldid=143333 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
16:37:52 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143335&oldid=143136 * Ractangle * (+132) /* Sakana */
16:39:23 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143336&oldid=143335 * Ractangle * (+167) /* Snakel */
16:40:13 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143337&oldid=143336 * Ractangle * (-11) /* Python */
16:40:46 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143338&oldid=143337 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Snakel */
16:41:05 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143339&oldid=143338 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Snakel */
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16:54:00 <esolangs> [[Quantum brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143340&oldid=59464 * RainbowDash * (+56) Add truth machine code
17:01:55 <esolangs> [[Quantum brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143341&oldid=143340 * RainbowDash * (+263) /* Examples */
17:04:35 <esolangs> [[Quantum brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143342&oldid=143341 * RainbowDash * (+6) /* Hello world */
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17:20:20 <esolangs> [[SETANDCOUNT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143343&oldid=143290 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) Stub, categories
17:23:33 <esolangs> [[SSREPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143344&oldid=141013 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+97) See also, categories
17:23:49 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143345&oldid=143339 * Ractangle * (+263) /* Snakel */
17:27:45 <esolangs> [[SSREPL```]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143346&oldid=143267 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+188) Link, categories
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17:38:23 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143347&oldid=143143 * Ractangle * (+252) /* Simplify */
17:40:49 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143348&oldid=143347 * Ractangle * (+96) /* Snakel */
17:42:57 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143349&oldid=143345 * Ractangle * (+66) /* Snakel */
17:43:38 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143350&oldid=143312 * Ractangle * (-82) Blanked the page
17:46:31 <wWwwW> hey im making a monad operator(CATEGORY THEORY) AND IDK WHAT THE OPERATOR AND identity element should be(its a generalized jmonad operator thing)
17:53:59 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143351&oldid=143349 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Snakel */
17:57:18 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143352&oldid=143351 * Ractangle * (+144) /* Snakel */
18:01:25 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143353&oldid=143352 * Ractangle * (+220) /* Snakel */
18:01:58 <korvo> wWwwW: Does it worry you that you're not able to cleanly communicate what you're doing to other category theorists?
18:02:24 <wWwwW> bascically im pretty sure it means
18:03:14 <wWwwW> and dont understand
18:04:31 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143354&oldid=143334 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Syntax */
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18:04:52 <esolangs> [[Kind n' Single]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143355 * Yayimhere * (+787) Created page with "'''Kind n' Single''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] based on [[Category theory]] == System == you can define a variable. it can be recursively defined. there is a single operator that takes a single argument and a single one that takes two arguments
18:05:05 <wWwwW> i made my monad thingie
18:08:47 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143356&oldid=143066 * Yayimhere * (+21) /* esolangs */
18:11:27 <korvo> wWwwW: A monad isn't just a functor. In fact, I'd argue that the monad laws are *more important* than functorality.
18:12:47 <korvo> Like, I could ask where your join operation is; all monads have a join. But more importantly, I could ask about the laws for join, which are also missing.
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18:24:35 <korvo> These are the two central operations of a monad.
18:25:35 <korvo> Me too. No worries.
18:34:03 <wWwwW> but what is a join
18:34:59 <b_jonas> join is what some people call the Haskell logo operator >>=
18:44:18 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
18:44:39 <wWwwW> what is a and how can you do m a
18:46:59 <int-e> :t \a f -> join (fmap f a)
18:47:00 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a1 -> (a1 -> m a2) -> m a2
18:47:21 <wWwwW> idk how any of haskell works
18:48:11 <int-e> (join and bind can be defined in terms of each other given the functor structure on m)
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18:59:29 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143357&oldid=143354 * Ractangle * (+178) /* Syntax */
18:59:39 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143358&oldid=143357 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Syntax */
19:00:50 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143359&oldid=143358 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Hello, world! */
19:01:14 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143360&oldid=143359 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
19:07:52 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143361&oldid=143360 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Syntax */
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19:16:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:ZISC ultra]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143362 * Yayimhere * (+107) Created page with "wow two commands:] ~~~~"
19:18:45 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143363&oldid=143361 * Ractangle * (-79) /* Hello, world! */
19:20:43 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143364&oldid=143363 * Ractangle * (+140) /* Syntax */
19:43:07 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143365&oldid=143364 * Ractangle * (+545) /* Syntax */
19:43:21 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143366&oldid=143365 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Syntax */
19:43:50 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143367&oldid=143348 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Snakel */
19:46:54 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143368&oldid=143366 * Ractangle * (+357) /* Syntax */
19:47:04 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143369&oldid=143368 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Syntax */
19:47:36 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143370&oldid=143369 * Ractangle * (-9)
19:52:40 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143371&oldid=143370 * Ractangle * (+283) /* Hello, world! */
20:52:23 <esolangs> [[Humo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143372&oldid=62077 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) Categories
20:57:10 <esolangs> [[Kind n' Single]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143373&oldid=143355 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+125) Formatting, categories
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21:18:24 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143374&oldid=143218 * Ractangle * (-222)
21:20:29 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143375&oldid=143374 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Programm forms */
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22:06:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Superstitionfreeblog * New user account
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22:14:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143376&oldid=143071 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+380) /* Introductions */
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22:20:33 <esolangs> [[User:Superstitionfreeblog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143377 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+180) Created page with "Hi! I'm new here. I'll add more content when I get some. I'll probably post code for subleq interpreters and compilers, when I get them working properly. Please visit my talk page."
22:56:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143378&oldid=126540 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+1835)
22:56:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143379&oldid=143378 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+122) /* Using Fasm or Nasm */
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23:48:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143380&oldid=143379 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+361) /* Using Fasm or Nasm */
23:56:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Arctenik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143381&oldid=143255 * Arctenik * (+477) Collab response
00:18:23 <esolangs> [[UserScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143382&oldid=68269 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) Categories
00:24:02 <ais523> I just came across this BF Joust match, which is a thing of beauty (view on tape length 17, normal polarity): http://zem.fi/bfjoust/game/#joust,Lymia.nyuroki2,quintopia.space_elevator,12b39bb
00:24:42 <ais523> does zem.fi's BF Joust viewer let you permalink to a particular tape length and polarity? I tried to figure it out from the source code but wasn't successful, it looks like there's some leftover code which might or might not be possible to trigger
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00:55:32 <esolangs> [[5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143383&oldid=143224 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+31)
01:04:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143384&oldid=136839 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+306)
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01:43:02 <salpynx> !ztest idk-9 >>>--...++<<.-++[(-+)*3.[+](-)*19][-]<++[+][-]
01:43:03 <zemhill> salpynx.idk-9: points -9.00, score 6.80, rank 47/47
01:48:19 <salpynx> i don't get how the 'points' and 'score' relate to the rankings at http://zem.fi/bfjoust/scores/ -- I was trying to maximise points, and get more than some of the lowest entries, but 'score' is not listed on the page...
01:48:33 <salpynx> ... unless score = Markov?
01:49:04 <salpynx> !zjoust idk-9 >>>--...++<<.-++[(-+)*3.[+](-)*19][-]<++[+][-]
01:49:05 <zemhill> salpynx.idk-9: points -9.00, score 6.80, rank 47/47
01:50:34 <salpynx> confirmed, score is labelled as 'Markov' on the leaderboard.
01:58:49 <salpynx> Where is the current points system explained? Talk:BF_Joust has discussion about multiple alternate points systems. It seems like the Markov score is the value that counts.
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02:25:50 <fizzie> Yes, 'score' in that is referring to Markov, because it's "the" scoring algorithm for that particular hill.
02:27:03 <fizzie> Points should be the p_a value from http://zem.fi/bfjoust/internals/ if it's working as intended.
02:27:25 <fizzie> (And score the s_a value for "Markov scoring".)
02:28:25 <fizzie> In retrospect, "internals" is a pretty bad title for that page... but "scores" was already taken for the score table.
02:34:23 <salpynx> Thank you, those are the details and definitions I was looking for
02:40:37 <fizzie> ais523: Yeah, I don't think that particular functionality works. It's basically the old EgoJSout viewer with minimal patches to make it fetch the zem.fi hill programs. The "old egojsout autorun" expects the program text to be in the URL query parameters, and anyway I could not get it to work out right.
02:41:09 <fizzie> For the "native" permalinks, those are using window.location rather than window.query, and parse a Git-based reference to a program.
02:43:42 <fizzie> I guess it shouldn't be particularly hard to add an optional thing to it that, when present, causes it to auto-trigger the full run and then open a particular tape-polarity setting. But it's not there right now.
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04:14:54 <salpynx> !ztest synanceia >(-)*10<...+[[+.-]]
04:14:55 <zemhill> salpynx.synanceia: points -6.98, score 13.21, rank 45/47
04:15:35 <salpynx> !zjoust synanceia >(-)*10<...+[[+.-]]
04:15:36 <zemhill> salpynx.synanceia: points -6.98, score 13.21, rank 45/47
04:18:57 <salpynx> ais523.stealth2 is now "13.37", which was a stretch goal of my entry, but couldn't make the last 0.16
04:47:35 <b_jonas> "normal polarity" => I have the feeling that while it's well-known that the polarities are called "sieve" and "kettle', almost nobody knows which one is which, because that's not documented on the wiki. (I don't know either.)
05:10:35 <ais523> sieve is the one where the programs are left at their normla polarity, but I don't really like the terminology – it doesn't make any sense and was probably created as a joke
05:13:52 <ais523> I think it may originally have been a forced meme? and those have a tendency to not be funny
05:17:09 <salpynx> !ztest 1337 ...>(+--)*13(-+-)*37<-[[-.+]]
05:17:09 <zemhill> salpynx.1337: points -6.38, score 13.37, rank 45/47
05:17:39 <salpynx> !zjoust 1337 ...>(+--)*13(-+-)*37<-[[-.+]]
05:17:39 <zemhill> salpynx.1337: points -6.38, score 13.37, rank 45/47
05:22:00 <ais523> (-.+.)*-1 (which is effectively what your code does – the loop only breaks if the flag is zero for two cycles, and at that point you lose anyway) is a bit strange as a shudder algorithm, It can occasionally lock clear loops but seems much less likely to do that than the alternatives, and it can't vibrate because it can't safely use 0 as a value it changes the flag to
05:24:36 <ais523> on a side note, a fun fact: ash is intentionally designed to not special-case against any program; an earlier version happened to hit a really fortuitous timing matchup against nyuroki2 and beat it, and I intentionally changed it to be something that would work better against general programs but worse against nyuroki2, and that's the reason it loses to it rather than beats it
05:26:05 <ais523> (this is partly because I was wondering whether Sookie – which appears to have been generated by a computer search – could work despite the apparent overfitting)
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05:32:11 <salpynx> I hadn't read up on strategies, but I was trying for a chameleon-like "Vibrator" strategy, to be as minimal as possible and avoid detection to let the opponent not detect me. Most of the changes I made to the code seemed to having timing sync / effects.
05:34:37 <ais523> try (++--)*-1 as the final loop rather than [[-.+]] – it's effectively the same idea but works on twice as many relative timings and doesn't lose on a zeroed flag
05:35:22 <ais523> it is almost always wrong to test your own flag for zeroness – if the test determines it was zero, then you spent the cycle not changing it away from zero and have probably lost
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05:40:50 <salpynx> Yes, that makes sense... there should be a way to optimise that. thx, I'll try your suggestion, is that effectively an unconditional loop?
05:57:43 <HackEso> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
05:57:49 <shachaf> I've forgotten how to search wisdom, I guess.
05:58:07 <wWwwW> i got an horrible terrible eoslang idea
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06:04:58 <wWwwW> an esolang where you can redefine the numbers in this:
06:11:05 <wWwwW> uid=501(gilbert) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff),12(everyone),61(localaccounts),79(_appserverusr),80(admin),81(_appserveradm),98(_lpadmin),701(com.apple.sharepoint.group.1),33(_appstore),100(_lpoperator),204(_developer),250(_analyticsusers),395(com.apple.access_ftp),398(com.apple.access_screensharing),399(com.apple.access_ssh)
06:13:46 <wWwwW> like on high serria 10.13.6
06:13:51 <wWwwW> and like it runs something
06:13:58 <wWwwW> and it extracts all information generated
06:20:29 <wWwwW> like it runs command /bin/bash -c "$(curl -fsSL https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Homebrew/install/HEAD/install.sh)"
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08:05:16 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> I've forgotten how to search wisdom, I guess. / <wWwwW> uid=501(gilbert) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff),12(everyone),61(localaccounts),79(_appserverusr),80(admin),81(_appserveradm)" => hehe, that's a brilliant misleading hint. actually `w does NOT search in wisdom, it only retrieves the wisdom entry by key, while `' searches
08:05:46 <b_jonas> (yes, I know that's the output of id, not w)
08:06:16 <b_jonas> wWwwW: you should be, because that's probably unintentionally humorous
08:06:36 <b_jonas> basically HackEso commands override a few well-known unix commands, such as paste, w, whoami
08:07:05 <b_jonas> with unrelated commands I mean
08:07:17 <b_jonas> (ls and sed are overrided with related but worse commands)
08:08:49 <b_jonas> oh yeah, ping is shadowed by something unrelated too
08:09:40 <b_jonas> paste is the one that bothers me because the other shadowed ones wouldn't be too useful on HackEso
08:10:12 <b_jonas> btw fizzie the HackEso web interfaces are giving an 502 error again
08:13:08 <wWwwW> should i make the esolang?
08:13:38 <b_jonas> ``` cd /hackenv/bin; for f in *; do type -ap "$f" | grep -qv "^/hackenv/" && echo "$f"; done
08:13:49 <wWwwW> and if i do what should i name it?
08:14:02 <HackEso> cc \ dc \ edit \ guile \ hd \ js \ ls \ man \ paste \ sed \ test \ uptime \ w \ wget \ whatis \ whoami
08:20:59 <esolangs> [[Emit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143385 * Iddi01 * (+4225) I did it (lots of categories in a single language) in an honest way, unlike [[Categorial]]
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08:29:32 <esolangs> [[Emit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143386&oldid=143385 * Iddi01 * (+23) /* The real impressive part */ I just knew i will forget something
08:36:13 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143387&oldid=143282 * MihaiEso * (+31)
08:40:29 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143388&oldid=142728 * Iddi01 * (+40) [[emit]]; added implementation notice
08:51:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143389&oldid=143097 * Iddi01 * (+11) /* E */ [[emit]]
09:02:32 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again10]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143390 * MihaiEso * (+2323) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again13|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: Wrong MS-DOS version, j7`fvG#}oc?cQ\p]/={7`8n)N`FO,CA{?miM"jw</span>]] 1. Take this crappy and shit program that is uG6@.j 2M=lDbA=xoOMOx[Z <pre> Do you mind, Carlsbe..."
09:04:02 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143391&oldid=143287 * MihaiEso * (+67) /* Horribly translated variants */
09:11:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143392&oldid=142799 * Iddi01 * (+621) /* Someone should change the featured language. */ I know how to fix it
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09:42:26 <fizzie> Let's see, it's complaining about the /var/run vs. /run thing in the journal for the socket activation thing.
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09:53:26 <fizzie> Okay, now the socket activation thing got it started, hopefully this time it stays up too.
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10:25:03 <esolangs> [[Ironlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143393&oldid=138773 * Froginstarch * (+25)
10:27:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Froginstarch * moved [[Ironlang]] to [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]]: Rename
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11:09:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143396&oldid=140220 * None1 * (+404) /* Help me interpret this */
11:10:53 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143397&oldid=143394 * Froginstarch * (-1076) /* Instructions */
11:38:40 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143398&oldid=143397 * Froginstarch * (-13)
11:39:04 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143399&oldid=143398 * Froginstarch * (+2)
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11:39:24 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143400&oldid=143399 * Froginstarch * (+13)
11:42:12 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143401&oldid=143400 * Froginstarch * (-3) /* Instructions */
11:48:15 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143402&oldid=143401 * Froginstarch * (-6) /* Instructions */
11:57:23 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143403&oldid=143402 * Froginstarch * (+50) /* Instructions */
11:59:08 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143404&oldid=143403 * Froginstarch * (+83) /* Instructions */
12:00:38 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143405&oldid=143404 * Froginstarch * (+69)
12:02:25 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143406&oldid=143405 * Froginstarch * (+41)
12:03:00 <esolangs> [[Translated FLOLCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143407 * MihaiEso * (+1226) Created page with "'''Translated FLOLCODE''' is [[FLOLCODE]] but horribly translated with the weirdest language Baidu can translate. 1. Take this example: <pre> HI, VERSION 1.3 COMMENT since FLOLCODE doesn't have input, we just use this variable as input I HAVE A input IT'S
12:03:29 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143408&oldid=143406 * Froginstarch * (+30)
12:03:33 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143409&oldid=143391 * MihaiEso * (+72) /* Horribly translated variants */
12:06:20 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143410&oldid=143408 * Froginstarch * (+64)
12:07:09 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143411&oldid=143410 * Froginstarch * (+21) /* Hello, world! */
12:07:24 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143412&oldid=143411 * Froginstarch * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
12:07:41 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143413&oldid=143412 * Froginstarch * (+13) /* Hello, world! */
12:09:48 <esolangs> [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143414&oldid=143413 * Froginstarch * (+49) /* Instructions */
12:10:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Froginstarch * moved [[Stack Manipulation Lang (SML)]] to [[SML]]: Another rename
12:10:54 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143417&oldid=143415 * MihaiEso * (+12) /* Instructions */
12:18:30 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143418&oldid=143417 * Froginstarch * (+30)
12:36:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143419&oldid=143396 * None1 * (+50) /* Help me interpret this */ add unsigned template, time adjusted from CST to UTC
12:37:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143420&oldid=143419 * None1 * (+0) /* Help me interpret this */ OMG, 17-8=11? I'm bad at arithmetic!
12:38:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143421&oldid=143420 * None1 * (+24) /* Help me interpret this */
12:39:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143422&oldid=143421 * None1 * (+1) /* Help me interpret this */
12:40:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143423&oldid=143117 * None1 * (+249) /* A shorter Quine program code in */
12:48:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143424&oldid=143423 * None1 * (-31645) Archive the talk page, about 80000 bytes before archiving
12:50:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143425 * None1 * (+31644) Archive talk page
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12:54:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143426&oldid=143425 * None1 * (+101)
12:59:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143427&oldid=143424 * None1 * (+461) /* Timezone */
13:01:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143428&oldid=143427 * None1 * (+55) /* Timezone */
13:03:27 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143429 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+132) Created page with "Hi I am RaiseAfloppaFan3925, I am a hobbyist programmer and I like esoteric languages. anyways how do i make a page for an esolang?"
13:08:58 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143430&oldid=143429 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+154)
13:14:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143431&oldid=143428 * None1 * (+106) /* Timezone */
13:19:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143432&oldid=143431 * None1 * (-40556) Archive talk page
13:20:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143433&oldid=143432 * None1 * (+40556) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/143432|143432]] by [[Special:Contributions/None1|None1]] ([[User talk:None1|talk]])
13:21:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143434&oldid=143433 * None1 * (-29036) /* Can brainfuck output the Chinese Character? */ Archive talk page
13:31:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143435&oldid=143434 * None1 * (+29036) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/143434|143434]] by [[Special:Contributions/None1|None1]] ([[User talk:None1|talk]]) Exceeds my mobile phone's fking copying character count limit, archiving little by little then
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13:31:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143436&oldid=143435 * None1 * (-8781) /* Can brainfuck output the Chinese Character? */
13:32:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143437 * None1 * (+8781) Created page with "== Can brainfuck output the Chinese Character? == Will this script work? <pre> ++++++++[>++++>++++++>++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++++<<<<<-]> >>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
13:32:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143438&oldid=143249 * MihaiEso * (+527)
13:33:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143439&oldid=143437 * MihaiEso * (+7)
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13:33:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143440&oldid=143436 * None1 * (-20255) Archive
13:35:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143441&oldid=143439 * None1 * (+20247) Archive finished
13:37:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1/Archive2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143442&oldid=143441 * None1 * (+136)
13:41:01 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143443&oldid=143418 * Froginstarch * (+7)
13:42:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143444&oldid=143440 * None1 * (+204)
13:44:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143445&oldid=143444 * None1 * (+206) /* Archiving talk page */
13:46:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143446&oldid=143445 * None1 * (-1) /* Archiving talk page */
13:52:49 <esolangs> [[RiLOLCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143447 * PrySigneToFry * (+11274) Created page with "RiLOLCODE is designed by PSTF. It is [[LOLCODE]] but even more formal than [[FLOLCODE]] by mihai Popa. == Keywords == These are the main keywords. All LOLCODE keywords are written in uppercase. {| class="wikitable plainpres" width="80%" ! Code ! Comment |- |
13:53:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143448&oldid=142134 * None1 * (+500) /* Delete an image */ new section
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14:03:11 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again14]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143449 * PrySigneToFry * (+2253) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/Mihai Again10|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: Wrong MS-DOS version, ??'?mmL?k?f`3#p(}q??I??AS?ZGA#?+5fb0.O[gX{x<L?E?3U0?(68?^?B4D).V?6f=S?`pjS???'v_7U??</span>]] 1. Take..."
14:03:40 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again10]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143450&oldid=143390 * PrySigneToFry * (+30)
14:05:49 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143451&oldid=143409 * PrySigneToFry * (+500)
14:08:02 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143452&oldid=136738 * PrySigneToFry * (-68) Fixed interpreter
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14:19:29 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143453 * None1 * (+5626) Created page with " or LLOLCODE is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]] and inspired by [[RiLOLCODE]] which is inspired by [[FLOLCODE]] which is inspired by [[LOLCODE]], but...in Classical Chinese. == Keywords == WIP These are the main keywords. All LOLCODE keywords are written in uppercase. {
14:20:13 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143454&oldid=143453 * None1 * (-18)
14:24:14 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143455&oldid=143454 * None1 * (-81) /* Keywords */
14:27:43 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143456&oldid=143455 * None1 * (-15)
14:31:55 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143457&oldid=143456 * None1 * (+88) /* Keywords */
14:32:55 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143458&oldid=143457 * None1 * (+1) /* Keywords */
14:37:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143459&oldid=143181 * None1 * (+349) /* My all Esolangs are designed by ONLY myself until now. */
14:39:54 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143460&oldid=143458 * None1 * (+0)
14:41:00 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143461&oldid=143460 * None1 * (-4) /* Keywords */
14:43:37 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143462&oldid=143449 * MihaiEso * (+31)
14:45:15 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143463&oldid=143461 * PrySigneToFry * (-74)
14:47:01 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143464&oldid=143463 * PrySigneToFry * (+5)
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14:55:18 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143465&oldid=143464 * None1 * (-3) /* Keywords */
14:56:42 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143466&oldid=143465 * None1 * (-8) /* Keywords */
14:57:26 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143467&oldid=143466 * PrySigneToFry * (+5164)
14:58:13 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again11]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143468 * MihaiEso * (+2320) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again14|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: Linux system is corrupted!!p%x\lLg6OI3eL<(2?JE;~nxSWDYgw</span>]] 1. Take this already *o2[i6Y9G>YaAefD^SVzi program <pre> no Not inspecting the border, _Continuing with it
14:58:19 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143469&oldid=143467 * None1 * (+3)
14:59:02 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143470&oldid=143469 * PrySigneToFry * (+16)
14:59:02 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143471&oldid=143451 * MihaiEso * (+69) /* Horribly translated variants */
14:59:22 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143472&oldid=143470 * None1 * (+1) /* Keywords */
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15:12:32 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143473&oldid=143189 * MihaiEso * (-46)
15:25:04 <shachaf> b_jonas: But `' searches quotes, not wisdom.
15:45:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143474 * Ractangle * (+306) Created page with "Simple. Just search up your esolangs name in the search bar and click the red link (or a link to a page that doesn't exist) bellow the search bar~~~"
16:06:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Help me interpret this.png]]": Copyright violation: apparently not created by the uploader, thus copyrighted by default by whoever made it
16:07:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143475&oldid=143448 * Ais523 * (+159) /* Delete an image */ deleted
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16:11:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143476&oldid=143474 * Ais523 * (+411) maybe the rules for creating an esolang page should be more obvious
16:15:14 <korvo> wWwwW: There are only three UNIX languages: shell, sed, and awk. Supposedly C is a languag too, but I'm skeptical~
16:15:37 <korvo> I suppose I'd ask why languages are supposed to be the way to get things done. Normally, to get things done, we need a *program*, not a *language*.
16:16:56 <korvo> shell is awful, but it's UNIX's way of composing multiple programs into a single pipeline-program.
16:20:39 <korvo> wWwwW: Like, check out this famous awk program: https://gist.github.com/trauber/4955706 It turns any document-oriented language into a literate-programming language.
16:20:56 <korvo> I am curious as to what it looks like in shell, but I bet it's not short.
16:34:09 <korvo> Well, first, it helps to know how awk works. awk is best when operating as a line-oriented stream editor: it edits a stream, not a document, and it edits each line individually.
16:34:38 <korvo> The entire program is two clauses. awk will evaluate both clauses for each line.
16:35:24 <korvo> My quote marks are ''. The first clause is 'if (/^```/) { i++; next }'. This says that, if a line starts with '```' then increment the variable i and go to the next line.
16:35:55 <korvo> The second clause is 'if ( i % 2 == 1) { print }'. This says that, if the variable i is odd (as opposed to even), then print the current line.
16:36:20 <korvo> So the effect is to repeatedly switch i between odd and even every time we see a '```', and to only print when we're outside of them.
16:37:38 <korvo> Good question. When we build a project, we can name all of our source files something like .ext.md instead of the original .ext, and use this script to generate .ext files for the compiler.
16:38:09 <korvo> Here's some literate [[Monte]]: https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/master/mast/lib/egg.mt.md GitHub renders it in a reasonably pretty way, and it can be read by the Monte compiler too.
16:39:50 <korvo> wWwwW: You could also think of this awk program as like a tiny compiler. It compiles from literate Monte to Monte, or literate C to C, or etc. Sometimes folks will insist that this is a "translator" or "transpiler" instead; same thing.
16:40:40 <korvo> wWwwW: Or are you asking what literate programming is? You might not have seen it before.
16:41:03 <wWwwW> but also i was confused how it was possible
16:41:19 <wWwwW> cant you reverse the process?
16:41:28 <korvo> No worries. The idea behind literate programming is to make a book that can also be compiled and run on a computer.
16:41:52 <korvo> It was invented by a guy named Knuth who has spent his life writing that sort of book.
16:42:01 <korvo> It's not really reversible, no. The Markdown is all thrown away.
16:45:10 <korvo> wWwwW: Maybe this helps give some perspective for how big/deep a language can get. For popular languages that people use at work, there are hundreds of books each explaining people's opinions on how to use the language. A language will have dialects.
16:45:24 <korvo> And even a small language might need one book just to explain what the language is and how it could be used.
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17:20:30 <zzo38> The book also has index and cross-references, so that if you read the book you can find where a name or something else is referenced and is defined. (Index entries can be generated automatically but can also be specified manually in the program, e.g. for error messages and other stuff that are not directly parts of the program code.)
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17:27:51 <korvo> zzo38: Great point. And Knuth's style of literate programming also included *tangling*, which allows a program to be defined out-of-order by reordering blocks of code and text.
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18:12:03 <b_jonas> I guess only grwp searches in wisdom then?
18:18:05 <b_jonas> korvo: tangentially related, do we have any plans on how to honor the memory of Ken Iverson? the tenth anniversary of his death is coming up.
18:19:13 <b_jonas> no, I'm stupid. the *twentieth* anniversary of his death is coming up
18:19:16 <korvo> b_jonas: I'm not very plugged into the community. Maybe moonchild knows?
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19:08:07 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143478&oldid=143371 * Ractangle * (+21) /* Syntax */
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19:58:35 <zzo38> I had heard of "Iverson bracket"
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20:16:05 <salpynx> ais523 (bfjoust) I can't remove the inner loop without hurting the performance against the current hill. [[-.+]] _is_ equivalent to (.[-.+])*-1 , but
20:16:58 <salpynx> delay is important. The outer loop is meant to be unconditional and endless. The inner loop apparently needs to be conditional to perform as well as it does.
20:17:14 <salpynx> mostly .-.+ , but occasionally just . (the failed test delay). It must be relying on the opponent to increment its flag at that point.
20:17:43 <salpynx> My 2 entries seem to do well because they happen to be decently competitive in the lower half of the hill, but somehow manage to _always_ win against 2nd and 3rd place (ais523_impatience and Lymia.nyuroki2), which boosts its score.
20:18:26 <salpynx> When creating it, it did feel like I was playing the current hill, rather than the game itself.
20:18:57 <salpynx> I am surprised that there aren't other defense-only strategies on the hill, which would necessarily draw with mine every time.
20:19:09 <salpynx> quintopia.space_elevator draws, but that seems to be a coinicidence, with 2 clear wins each, and the rest drawn matches.
20:22:19 <salpynx> I just confirmed my code doesn't loose against noops (had to check)
20:29:16 <salpynx> correction, mine doesn't _always_ win against 2 and 3, nyuroki2 is especially weak against mine (only wins once), _impatience wins 4, draws 4 out of 21 (polarity makes no diff)
20:32:31 <salpynx> uh, nyuroki2 only ever _draws_ against mine, once or twice, depending on the version
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21:40:57 <shachaf> b_jonas: Oh, grwp, that sounds right.
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22:02:29 <ais523> salpynx: so nyuroki2's anti-shudder code is slightly broken, which I discovered while testing ash
22:02:43 <ais523> you probably happen to have hit the exact timing at which it breaks
22:04:02 <ais523> impatience losing to it is not that surprising, it gains extra speed by assuming that the opponent is not a shudder program unless it happens to notice it adjust the cell it's clearing away from 0
22:05:40 <ais523> also, there are quite a few "primary defence" programs on the hill, but almost all of them have a timer to switch to a different strategy if the opponent seems to be doing nothing – it is a good way to improve your matchup against other primary defence programs, because if the opponents' timer expires first, they will be coming at you with the most hateful anti-defensive clear their author could imagine
22:18:19 <ais523> (where by "hateful" I mean "tuned specifically to beat a particular strategy grouping")
22:21:42 <ais523> margins3 against synanceia is a good example <http://zem.fi/bfjoust/game/#joust,ais523.margins3,salpynx.synanceia,7b4fcc2>: it spends a lot of time passively defending, and then when it realises your program is entirely passive (a little after halfway through the match), sets a size-128 decoy on every tape cell and then does a clear designed to beat defensive locks
22:29:37 <salpynx> is there a match viewer animation to see that in action, or are you describing how you know margins3 works?
22:29:47 <ais523> I linked the match viewer
22:30:08 <ais523> (but I used my knowledge of margins3 to pick the right program to show)
22:30:13 <ais523> choose any tape length other than the really short ones
22:30:23 <ais523> and you'll see it in action
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22:30:42 <ais523> I picked 23 but don't think it matters much
22:31:29 <salpynx> haha, I've been looking at those match pages a lot lately and had no idea I could click on one of the symbols to see the match!
22:31:58 <ais523> I guess the only clue is that they are blue, which is a common link color
22:32:04 <salpynx> ... the rabbit hole just got a _lot_ deeper
22:32:35 <ais523> clicking on ties is usually not recommended, today's computers can handle them just about, but it uses a lot of CPU and memory
22:33:36 <b_jonas> so how does BFJoust hill ethics work? is it fair to submit a program that you specifically tuned against the current hill members, and ais523 is trying not to do that only for an extra challenge?
22:33:48 <b_jonas> and I mean the specific programs, not just against the general strategies
22:34:43 <ais523> b_jonas: tuning specifically for the current hill is generally accepted, and fairly easy to do by accident due to overfitting during your testing
22:35:15 <ais523> but, programs that don't do it tend to survive longer, because they are more likely to work against future programs if they don't overfit to the current programs
22:36:29 <salpynx> very interesting, you can see both margin3 and synanceia using the ~10 minimum length to change their behaviour, I 'found' 10, but was aware that it's the minimum tape length. Spending more time than that before getting into the main shudder loop generally hurt the score
22:38:06 <ais523> the whole idea of margins is to win on short tapes and draw the rest, there is a lot of special-casing for short tapes and for particular short-tape lengths
22:39:00 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143482&oldid=143322 * Ais523 * (+1437) /* Defense */ mention breaking out of a passive defence if the opponent is also passive
22:40:07 <salpynx> I understand now why even though I intended a Vibrator at first, spending time zeroing my own flag wasted time better spent on setting up some kind of nearby decoy (generally a net +ve while the opponent might be traveling) The main successful tactic is its Shudder loop, presumably synanceia is as tight as it can get
22:41:29 <ais523> I am not sure anyone really understands what the best way to do decoys is – it seems to depend a lot on the other details of your program
22:42:07 <salpynx> originally I thought I could zero fast with wrapping, but it doesn't work like that (probably a good thing), there are only two states of interest, 0 and non-zero, and it takes to long to determine anything more about non-zero states
22:42:50 <ais523> well, that's the entire point of the game
22:43:16 <ais523> for impatience, I started by copying the decoy setup of monolith because their clear loops have similar goals, and only modified it slightly
22:43:18 <salpynx> experimentally I found adding something within one or two cells was likely to have a net positive effect, but travelling further always did worse (for my simple defense strategy)
22:43:45 <ais523> I have also discovered that helps
22:44:17 <ais523> I am confused the most when it comes to omnipotence, which specifically wants the opponent on its flag early, and yet setting a single small decoy helped and I am not sure why
22:44:43 <salpynx> ... I was base-lining my performance on noops and active self-destruction to get something very minimal and simple that did ok against the hill
22:46:45 <ais523> I guess omnipotence doesn't actively *need* the opponent to clear its flag
22:47:26 <ais523> so it may help against opponents that start by clearing the first nonzero cell they see, then do something else
22:52:02 <salpynx> yeah, the omnipotence vs. synanceia is weird, it alternately attacks itself, and its eventual losing seems like it could have gone either way
23:03:47 <salpynx> watching the match animations I now understand that a lot of behaviour loops are hard coded -- I was trying to figure out how nyuroki2 knew to "give up" on its unsuccessful attack... it must just repeat a hardcoded n times
23:04:24 <salpynx> I thought more complex progams might be using cells for data storgage, but that seems impossible / too risky
23:04:52 <ais523> only a very few programs do that
23:05:33 <ais523> you normally need to lock the opponent first to stop them disturbing the cells, and generally only use cells behind where you think the opponent is
23:05:49 <ais523> it's much more common to use run-length-encoded hardcoded code
23:06:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143483&oldid=143477 * None1 * (+245) /* Delete an image */
23:06:12 <ais523> if you need, say, 1000 nested loops, there's an abbreviation for that
23:06:20 <salpynx> ... which explains the new ()* notation
23:06:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143484&oldid=143483 * None1 * (+3) /* Delete an image */
23:07:34 <ais523> I have been recently considering writing a BF-Joust-like language that doesn't need the abbreviations and can use short programs, but is still limited enough to make it possible to exploit the opponent's control flow
23:07:45 <salpynx> it also explains how some things can clearly misfire if expectations are met, like probably why margins3 spends half its time attacking itself :)
23:08:39 <ais523> it isn't really attacking itself, it is trying to lock the opponent's clear loop
23:08:53 <salpynx> I remember playing core wars and IIRC that was fun because you could inject and alter the opposing players code
23:08:57 <ais523> i.e. it is assuming the opponent is attacking and trying to make it hard for them to move on to the next cell
23:11:32 <salpynx> re ethics and exploits, I notice there are 2 copies of mroman.cupnoodle on the hill, I'm sure it's not meant to be an exploit, but it takes up 2 slots on the hill. Identical variations on a winning program could fill the hill, if one were unscrupulous...
23:13:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143485&oldid=143484 * None1 * (+390) /* */
23:14:22 <salpynx> aha, "lock the opponent's clear loop" yes, that is probably a decent assumption in the game: that your opponent is at your flag trying to destroy it. I'm thinking like a plant lol
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23:17:54 <fizzie> I could probably arrange for one of the cupnoodles to go away, I don't think that was intentional, just a side effect of not being able to remove a program without being able to get a particular nickname.
23:18:22 <fizzie> (The traditional way of "removing" a program is to submit a `<`, but that requires having the same nickname.)
23:28:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * She.the.people * New user account
23:33:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143486&oldid=143376 * She.the.people * (+151) me >v<
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23:55:33 <salpynx> fizzie: I think removing one cupnoodle would be good. It's hard getting on the hill at all, freeing up a slot would help. I think there wil lalways be a bit of rotation at the lower ranks based on happening to do ok against the current hill, but ais532 is right that genuinely good strategies will rise to the top
23:56:32 <salpynx> or genuinely good players with a range of general purpose strategies will rise
00:04:01 <esolangs> [[;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143487&oldid=115952 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+24) /* Interpreter */
00:04:59 <esolangs> [[7 bytes XD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143488&oldid=127004 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+17) /* brainfuck */
00:27:11 <korvo> I developed the physics analogy a bit more. A jouster occupies a region of tape probabalistically. This is more like analyzing a cellular automaton than doing QM, fortunately; it's classical probability theory.
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06:33:54 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143492&oldid=143491 * Ractangle * (+18) You know you if you use "Me". Then we wouldn't know who made this esolang
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07:19:16 <zemhill> fizzie.bad: points -15.33, score 8.07, rank 47/47
07:19:52 <fizzie> Okay, there's now just one cup noodle.
07:20:36 <fizzie> (Manually replaced the other copy with '<' in the repo, and then did the above just to make it recalculate the scores.)
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09:04:49 <b_jonas> perlbot zjoust bad (>)*9((+.)*280>)*28(+)*99999
09:04:51 <zemhill> web.b_jonas-bad: points -31.81, score 3.70, rank 47/47
09:04:51 <perlbot> b_jonas: {"result":"ok","message":"web.b_jonas-bad: points -31.81, score 3.70, rank 47/47\n"}
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09:51:19 <salpynx> !zjoust nana (-)*13>>(+)*21(>>[-[-.[(+)*21[-]>]]+>+](-)*21)*13[>[-]]
09:51:19 <zemhill> salpynx.nana: points -0.76, score 20.63, rank 20/47
09:58:53 <salpynx> huh, that beats ash, I didn't design that deliberately! It's an optimisation of web.test, mostly deliberately speeding up its decoy placing to every 2 cells, and twaeking other parameters to what performs well on the hill, and adding a final simple clearing loop to finish of any remaining flags
10:17:39 <salpynx> I'm starting to think tuning to the current hill is inevitable mainly due to the hardcoding of magic loop numbers. You can't generalise the behaviour unless you are sensing something in the environment, fixed behaviour that performs well is not a generalised sol.n, but a statistical best-fit based on the kinds of opponents you happen to encounter. There must be an evolutionary biology term for this sort of thing -- there's no ultimate perfect strategy;
10:17:39 <salpynx> it depends on the current ecosystem.
10:18:37 <salpynx> For a program with a main loop, for a given hill you can set it to a large fixed n repetition, and then lower it to find the point where the score changes to discover the maximum useful number of loops to do that well in the current hill, then try doing something else to squeeze out a better score. salpynx.nana takes what was a [] loop from web.test and for the current hill 13 repetitions gives the max score, then it tacks on another strategy (clear)
10:18:37 <salpynx> which gets some more points, presumably against just one opponent, but I don't know which one. I was optimising by simply observing point value and Markov score.
10:28:50 <salpynx> the only opponent nana draws against is web.test, its 'ancestor' web.test wins every sieve round, nana wins every kettle round. That seems odd, but there must be a good reason.
10:29:59 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143498&oldid=143472 * None1 * (-3)
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10:36:18 <wib_jonas> “<ais523> […] a BF-Joust-like language that doesn't need the abbreviations and can use short programs, but is still limited” => this made me think of the brainfuck with if-conditionals at first that someone proposed recently, then also brainfuck with arbitrary finite state control flow, which in a bfjoust variant would mean a one-tick test if
10:36:19 <wib_jonas> cell under head is nonzero with two goto destinations, as well as a zero-time unconditional goto.
10:36:50 <wib_jonas> but neither of those are suitable because they don't allow counter loops without abbreviations, so you must have been thinking of something else
10:39:10 <wib_jonas> as for the original bfjoust, I'm not sure if "abbreviations" is the right word. abbreviations expanding to a long bfjoust program might be the easiest way to define bfjoust, but the expanded program can be exponentially long, it could overflow the storage of any actual memory if fully expanded, even if you truncate parts of the program that are
10:39:11 <wib_jonas> definitely past the game time limit, so it is mandatory for a bfjoust interpreter to interpret them in some way that's more optimized than just expanding everything
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10:44:58 <wib_jonas> counter loops with large counts like (+)*118 are useful for bfjoust, so any language you design probably has to support that, unless you change bfjoust in a significant way
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14:51:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143528&oldid=62189 * PrySigneToFry * (+452) /* How will Basilisk do? */ new section
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15:00:00 <wWwwW> is it possible to make this esolang?:
15:00:09 <wWwwW> so you have an bunch of ascii art the a number
15:00:38 <wWwwW> a patterm recognition program now must find the patternm in all these numbers to ascii art(with all the art in context)
15:00:46 <wWwwW> and then find the falue of one thats unspecified
15:06:58 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143531&oldid=143516 * MihaiEso * (+32)
15:24:02 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again 12]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143532 * MihaiEso * (+2654) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again15|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: Esolang Wiki is far from perfectTN$Q9R7TR/cB/MRVH?%BYV]-iT}~a0^tx2& WJ 36r'AivQH!!kEJR8W*16sl+l_B[=_!&V^O%/</span>]] 1. Take this ..."
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15:24:30 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143535&oldid=143531 * MihaiEso * (-1) /* Contrast */
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16:50:14 <korvo> salpnyx: Surprisingly, most biologists are not aware of the idea of local minima. I think that this is because we don't teach evolution well; they think it exponentially converges towards a global minimum, reaching it in logarithmically-few (~constant) generations.
16:51:06 <korvo> When really it's more like exponentially-fast convergence towards a local minimum whose neighborhood is logarithmically-distant (~multiplier to inefficiency) from perfection.
16:51:48 <korvo> If evolution optimized those inefficiencies too fast, then we wouldn't have the nice emergent Gaussians for lifeforms, which are required in order to survive system shocks.
16:53:24 <korvo> wWwwW: Yeah, probably. I'm noticing a pattern: many of your ideas are based on declarative searches. "Declarative" means that you tell the computer what the output should look like but not how to compute it; "search" means that the computer tries many possibilities and discards those which don't work.
16:54:26 <korvo> Maybe it would be useful to learn languages that have this builtin, like Prolog (well-known) or miniKanren (simple) or Curry (Haskell-flavored), so that you can more easily try out your ideas in code.
16:57:18 <wWwwW> pattern matching is a defined algorithm
16:57:23 <wWwwW> both in text and images
16:57:39 <wWwwW> it pattern searching
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17:04:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143537&oldid=143528 * Corbin * (+659) /* Slitherfangs */ new section
17:08:40 <korvo> wWwwW: Sure, assuming we know what those things are. Like, for image pattern matching, we wouldn't want to use pixels, right?
17:09:46 <korvo> (Also, just to be explicit, I'm trying to encourage you to *read* and *write* code, since those are the two most fundamental skills for any sort of hacker to develop.)
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17:35:57 <wWwwW> text pattern thing thing ai
17:36:04 <wWwwW> then we use a fucntion fined ai
17:36:11 <wWwwW> that take sone input and returns another
17:36:24 <wWwwW> we do for the pattern to value
17:37:53 <wWwwW> i have a copde techer
17:37:59 <wWwwW> ill learn minikanren
17:40:14 <wWwwW> how i would like it to want
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18:11:38 <korvo> wWwwW: Don't worry about AI or machine learning for now. They aren't going to be helpful to your intuition about how computers work.
18:12:38 <korvo> No, learned functions usually don't work; they're *heuristics*, not specified functionality.
18:13:22 <korvo> The best way to think about AI is that it is "probably approximately correct", or PAC. You can search for "PAC learning" if you want to dig into the maths, although you probably need some linear algebra first.
18:13:56 <esolangs> [[PythBrSc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143538&oldid=143504 * Ractangle * (+9)
18:13:56 <wWwwW> as long as it "works#
18:14:12 <korvo> Well, it *doesn't* work. PAC is a *limitation* on what can be learned.
18:14:17 <esolangs> [[PythBrSc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143539&oldid=143538 * Ractangle * (+4)
18:15:11 <korvo> Also, learning only is possible when there is input data to learn from. We don't know what ChatGPT was trained upon, so it's not reasonable to specify your esolang via ChatGPT.
18:15:51 <wWwwW> i gut a funkin weird idea
18:15:56 <wWwwW> for how this could work
18:16:01 <wWwwW> simpler version tho
18:16:14 <wWwwW> if you account everyspace as empty asn deveryyihng else as not then use A* on it
18:16:41 <wWwwW> another idea rated impossible
18:16:58 <korvo> Sure, some spaces can be searched. But you have to define the space carefully. Usually we want to exploit the toplogy of the space somehow.
18:17:18 <korvo> The key phrase for that is "searchable set". The maths is going to be tough, though.
18:18:10 <APic> Ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu-
18:20:12 <wWwwW> i have no dieas and i have nothing to do
18:31:17 <korvo> wWwwW: You could read or write code.
18:31:45 <wWwwW> ill just try to write some shit in haskell to learn it
18:34:20 <korvo> If you're out of class, you could read up on MENACE, a toy machine-learning system. MENACE learns how to play noughts-and-crosses/tic-tac-toe perfectly! But sometimes it fails to learn.
18:34:54 <wWwwW> i would rather write haskell rn idk
18:35:01 <wWwwW> ill check menace later
18:35:03 <korvo> Matt Parker has a great video demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9c-_neaxeU and an older set is documented here https://www.mscroggs.co.uk/blog/19
18:35:19 <korvo> No worries. Have fun.
18:38:02 <wWwwW> i would like som help(chatgpt bad for climate) so ummm. :
18:38:03 <wWwwW> Main.hs:1:1: error:
18:38:03 <wWwwW> Parse error: module header, import declaration
18:38:04 <wWwwW> or top-level declaration expected.
18:38:05 <wWwwW> 1 | print((:[]).(\x -> x.x))
18:38:05 <wWwwW> | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
18:42:00 <korvo> What are you reading to learn Haskell? I'll tell you that the given error explains exactly what went wrong.
18:42:09 <b_jonas> wWwwW: haskell is like C, it doesn't like top-level expressions, instead it runs main in its IO system
18:42:29 <wWwwW> korvo: NOTHING. idk im crazy
18:44:55 <korvo> wWwwW: "crazy" doesn't mean anything. Anyway, when I was your age, I learned languages like Perl and Java one-by-one by reading books which were intended to teach them. There are a dozen decent Haskell books; for you, maybe https://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters is a good first step.
18:45:24 <wWwwW> i dont buy books for programming
18:45:32 <wWwwW> i get fuckin stressed for some reason
18:46:10 <korvo> I'm not going to ever link you to something that you have to pay to read. LYAH ("Learn You A Haskell"), the above link, is free to read online. The author gave their permission, even!
18:46:28 <b_jonas> korvo: heh, that sounds like you're quite young
18:46:39 <int-e> trying to guess the syntax of a programming language is probably the second worst way to learn it
18:46:58 <lambdabot> http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ or the slightly updated fork https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/
18:47:00 <wWwwW> ill just as i get errors
18:47:13 <lambdabot> http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ https://github.com/tssm/up-to-date-real-world-haskell
18:47:19 <korvo> b_jonas: Rather that wWwwW is young. I have a GEB on my shelf, for example, and I think all computer scientists should have one in their native language; but it might not be in their budget, and they won't need it until undergrad.
18:48:57 <korvo> b_jonas: Other books that are expensive but I found worth the cost include the OpenGL Red Book, "Applied Cryptography" (the red one), and a few other textbooks.
18:48:57 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143540&oldid=143497 * Ractangle * (-32) /* Hello, world! */
18:49:11 <b_jonas> korvo: are there really Haskell books that old?
18:49:21 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143541&oldid=143540 * Ractangle * (-33) /* Cat program */
18:49:26 <korvo> Oh, also books like "On Numbers and Games" (ONAG) and Smullyan's puzzle books, which are small enough to take on the bus or train.
18:49:33 <int-e> (The last one is not actually recommended. I just like that it claims to be "gentle" and then assumes an undergraduate level TCS/PL background.
18:50:01 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, which one do you recommend? there's a broken reference there
18:50:38 <korvo> b_jonas: Oh, you meant the "when I was your age". I was a teen in the 90s and learned all the hip languages at the time: Java, Perl, PHP, JS, and eventually Python.
18:50:48 <int-e> b_jonas: in this context, probably lyah despite the horrendous grammar in the title
18:51:05 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143542&oldid=143541 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Syntax */
18:51:22 <int-e> but RWH may offer better motivation maybe
18:51:46 <int-e> I have not really read either of them because by the point they were written I was already fairly comfortable in Haskell
18:52:05 <korvo> RWH (and its OCaml sibling) are not very good books IMO. They want to be all "practical" and "for software engineers", which means adopting a lot of bad verbose patterns and outdated libraries.
18:52:36 <int-e> they are for different audiences
18:52:45 <korvo> LYAH is very wrong, but wWwwW will find it easier to understand. It follows the little-lie big-lie style of teaching.
18:52:47 <int-e> (all three of the above)
18:53:47 <b_jonas> korvo: Java, Perl PHP, JS, Python sound possible, it was the Haskell that surprised me
18:53:57 <korvo> wWwwW: It occurs to me that you might not know about compression yet. That could be another interesting topic for you! There are fundamental limits to compression, and compression is equivalent to whatever AI chatbots are doing, so there are fundamental limits on chatbots too.
18:53:58 <int-e> korvo: for you, the gentle introduction is probably a good fit, except it's quite ancient by now
18:54:03 * korvo little lie, big lie
18:54:43 <korvo> int-e: Yeah... I think it covers Haskell 2010, at least.
18:55:22 <b_jonas> "RWH" is a book? isn't that like a monad in the standard library?
18:55:56 <int-e> The monad (transformer) is RWS, a combination or Reader, Writer, and State
18:56:37 <korvo> But I do like the idea of Reader, Writer, and Ham.
18:58:15 <b_jonas> Ham? as in like a Bacon Lettuce Tomato monad transformer or as in ham radio?
18:58:34 <korvo> I'm mostly talking from hunger, but radio is good too.
19:00:56 <wWwwW> whats a good esolang to learn?
19:01:22 <wWwwW> ...im ignoring that
19:01:57 <int-e> you're much better off getting started in some mainstream language
19:02:13 <wWwwW> it takes less time
19:02:16 <int-e> which will a) be more useful and b) have far better resources to learn from
19:02:22 <wWwwW> when im bored in an afternoon
19:02:40 <int-e> the idea of being bored is so funny
19:07:25 <b_jonas> int-e: no it's not, but it probably depends on what kind of family you have. my grandmother can now barely leave his apartment, and she's been bored even when she could walk outdoors in good weather.
19:10:14 <int-e> b_jonas: Sure, I was thinking of younger people than that who have access to internet capable devices basically around the clock, compared to the olden days where you could actually end up stuck in a room with nothing to do that you haven't done before.
19:10:53 <wWwwW> am i the only one who just rlly wants to tie music into programming and htne just gotsooo exited when i found out sonic pi existed
19:11:15 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143543&oldid=143492 * She.the.people * (+151)
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19:41:22 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143551&oldid=143550 * Ractangle * (-2)
19:44:31 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143552&oldid=143353 * Ractangle * (-251) /* Snakel */
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19:52:27 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143554&oldid=143553 * Ractangle * (-9) /* Languages with halting instructions/infinite loops */
19:52:35 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143555&oldid=143554 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Languages with halting instructions/infinite loops */
19:54:35 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143556&oldid=143555 * Ractangle * (+10) /* 4ME */
19:54:53 <salpynx> wWwwW: "whats a good esolang to learn?": serious (i think) ans: bf, a string re-writing lang like Thue, or Lisp. They should each give you some moderately satisfying results quickly by playing, and they should all indirectly reveal real comp-sci intuition (which applies to very many esolangs, and real-world stuff)
19:55:53 <salpynx> bf and Thue you can write using the esowiki article only, Lisp will prob require a book, but the Lisp book is nice and firendly
19:57:11 <salpynx> writing your own bf Hello World from scratch will prob put in you in the top x% of esolangers, where x is quite small
19:59:06 <salpynx> even writing some Deadfish examples, understanding the overflow through experimentation, and running it in one of the interpreters on that page is probably a non-trivial excercise and not a complete waste of time
19:59:50 <salpynx> ... then write your own interpreter in _any_ language eso or otherwise
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20:08:09 <b_jonas> salpynx: which lisp specifically
20:09:35 <korvo> I'd insist on a Scheme, and not Racket. Students need to learn about lexical scope and hygenic macros first.
20:09:59 <korvo> In this case, though, maybe Racket's an acceptable compromise, since it leads easily into making toy interpreters.
20:12:14 <b_jonas> korvo: common lisps have lexical scope too, so that doesn't really explain why scheme
20:17:00 <korvo> b_jonas: That's fair. I suppose it's only a feeling then. I also wouldn't recommend a Kernel Lisp either, even though those are also lexical and hygenic in their own way.
20:18:50 <korvo> ...I mean, that itches, but I'm not strong enough with CL to discuss it. I could point out that e.g. Python is lexically scoped, which is true, but also comes with several caveats like class scope, module scope, and lambda quirk.
20:20:10 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143558&oldid=143544 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+146) Categories
20:21:31 <sprout> python's scope rules are debatable
20:24:30 <esolangs> [[PythOwO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143559&oldid=143501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+137) Formatting, see also, categories
20:27:12 <b_jonas> I would actually recommend python3 as a beginner language these days
20:30:56 <korvo> I highly recommend Python 3 as linguafranca and for replacing pseudocode with something executable.
20:38:02 <salpynx> b_jonas: .. hmm, I'm just waking up, so the Lisp I was thinking of was "the one with the cartoons in the book"... so I actually meant Forth, sorry
20:40:14 <esolangs> [['xxx' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143560&oldid=135361 * Ractangle * (+100) /* See also */
20:40:38 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143561&oldid=143174 * Ractangle * (-74) /* See also */
20:43:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143562&oldid=141847 * Ractangle * (+43)
20:43:33 <b_jonas> salpynx: wait, forth? ok, then I have to ask what modern forth interpreter you'd suggest. I don't use Forth
20:43:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143563&oldid=143562 * Ractangle * (-44) I am an absolute idiot
20:44:24 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143564&oldid=143356 * Ractangle * (+2) /* ppl i like and dont like */
20:44:35 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143565&oldid=143564 * Ractangle * (+1) /* ppl i like and dont like */
20:44:38 <salpynx> .. I think I've got myself _very_ confused... what's Forth (with DROP DUP etc) but with Lisp like syntax ... I think I'm thinking of a custom esolang
20:45:46 <b_jonas> uh... I don't see how that would work
20:46:48 <b_jonas> unless you mean something like postscript or GML, which use a forth-like data stack but have first-class functions
20:47:05 <korvo> Or possibly something like Joy, Cat, or Kitten, which have [] quotations.
20:47:06 <b_jonas> I guess you'll have to rethink this after you woke up properly
20:47:27 <korvo> I might recommend Factor. It's not technically a Forth, but it's a wonderful spiritual successor.
20:49:44 <b_jonas> anyway, as for lisps, I don't think macros are particularly important for a beginner, in fact they might be distracting from learning how functions work which is more important. purely as a language without extra libraries I prefer scheme over common lisp, but I'm not sure if my reasons for that apply if you consider it as a beginner language.
20:50:53 <salpynx> I was trying to recommend a traditional stack based language, but Forth maybe isn't the best now that I look at the book again. I remember the book being fun, but I've confused it with some simpler esolang (with lots of brackets)
20:52:28 <sprout> yes, that would be egel
20:52:34 <b_jonas> I'm not very familiar with forths, as far as I know they're low-level, and as a beginner language I'd prefer something high-level that has dynamically allocatable structures and arrays with bounds checking. python isn't perfect for this either.
20:54:06 <b_jonas> sprout: is egel even stack-based in the Forth sense?
20:54:46 <sprout> no, it has graph rewrite semantics
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21:08:08 <korvo> salpynx: The real issue that I found (and why I wrote [[Cammy]] instead of making dialects of Joy) is that Forths with quotations are 1D. They can't represent applicative trees without forcing the programmer to explicitly build each branch and check that it's got the correct arity.
21:08:23 <korvo> At some point, S-expressions or some other applicative-tree syntax are preferable.
21:10:18 <esolangs> [[Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143566&oldid=140770 * Corbin * (+944) Document closure quirk. I love the smell of redlinks in the morning.
21:10:42 <salpynx> both egel and cammy are sparking memories, I think I've imagined a single simple language based on a number of explorations with those, Scheme, Lisp, and Forth, and WIP esolang ideas that were never completed
21:14:08 <b_jonas> I'm also not quite convinced that lexical scoping (i.e. for nested functions) is so important for a beginner, but that's more plausible than macros, and so many languages support lexical scoping and the alternatives are worse so you might as well have it for almost free
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21:20:45 <salpynx> I failed at giving an example of an easy to pick up 'toy' stack-based language that you can just type stuff into a REPL and get satisfying responses immediately, I feel like I've had that experience, but there's not a single place I can point to to get started quickly, unfortunately.
21:22:40 <b_jonas> don't HP programmable calculators do that? I'm not sure, I never used one, and I don't know much about stack-based languages
21:25:27 <esolangs> [[PythBrSc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143567&oldid=143539 * MihaiEso * (-9) I'm a male.
21:35:06 <salpynx> korvo: "Forths with quotations" is bringing back lots of memories, I think this is something that multiple people were investigating at one point
21:42:42 <salpynx> wWwwW: write some bf programs, and try string re-wrtiting. String rewiriting is fun, you can blow up your display with lots of crazy output, and by playing with it enough you might get the Zen-like moment of understanding how it even relates at all to computation and programming, which is nice. Deadfish too can be worthwhile if you use it to understand or write interpreters, (even though it is very silly).
21:47:58 <salpynx> .. other than that, you might have to learn a non-eso language, which is not a bad thing, but likely to be a bit more involved, (the 'none' option suggested above)
21:53:11 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143568 * AndrewBayly * (+1930) Jumpy
21:56:00 <salpynx> wWwW: Try different langauges REPLs (Read, Evaluate, Print, and Loop) interfaces and you can see if any interest you. There are often online versions, https://try.scheme.org/ or Lua https://www.tutorialspoint.com/lua_terminal_online.php , no real language recommendation, just try multiple to get a feel for whats out there. Lua is used for scripting many games, incl. Roblox (I don't know what you're into, Roblox just seems likely more relevant than
21:56:00 <salpynx> Forth in almost any context...)
21:57:21 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143569&oldid=143568 * AndrewBayly * (+1) Headings
21:58:29 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143570&oldid=143569 * AndrewBayly * (+8) More Headings
21:59:40 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143571&oldid=143570 * AndrewBayly * (+1) typo
22:02:40 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143572&oldid=143551 * Ractangle * (+120) /* Examples */
22:02:57 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143573&oldid=143572 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Truth-machine */
22:03:56 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143574&oldid=109444 * AndrewBayly * (+116) Added Jumpy
22:09:26 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143575&oldid=143571 * AndrewBayly * (+24) Added category
22:25:54 <salpynx> no idea if wWwwW is a log reader, but for music programming, Orca looks interesting and potentially fun: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Orca I have not used it, but I like 100rabbits. Learning Supercollider is on my todo list for a serious audio language. I have used Nyquist (XLISP) for audio, but there are probably more modern alternative.
22:26:15 <zzo38> Csound is another programming language for dealing with audio.
22:26:40 <korvo> If they were thinking of music as a communication medium, then there's a rich history there too, with Solresol as a notable example due to having a vocabulary.
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23:11:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143576&oldid=143527 * None1 * (+262) /* */
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01:24:26 <salpynx> b_jonas: "as far as I know they're low-level" I feel wWwwW's qn makes sense, and I was interpreting it as looking for a language which was: fun, simple, fundamentaly low-level in that it is intuitive enough to grasp and *do* some limited things with immediately style of 'eso'-lang, and doesn't involve understanding too many abstract concepts at once. 'Here's 3 commands, now form a band' DIY style.
01:24:43 <salpynx> The fact that for one of my examples I mixed up a number of real 'normal' (and quite different from each other), and hypothetical concept languages that have been attempted by many people over time and exist only in parts in many places, but nothing concrete that fully meets this brief, is telling... sometimes esolangs just work better "in theory".
01:34:48 <esolangs> [[Jumpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143577&oldid=143575 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+114) Categories
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02:20:36 <esolangs> [[Brainyay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143578&oldid=143088 * PhiPhiPHIpHi * (+60)
02:36:59 <b_jonas> salpynx: to be clear by high-level I mostly mean it should be memory-safe and type-safe.
02:37:36 <b_jonas> at least for some basic version of typesafe
03:28:10 <b_jonas> I have some questions about libtom. (1) in "libtommath-1.0.1/bn_mp_to_unsigned_bin.c", is this really using an algorithm that takes time quadratic in the length of the input because it's shifting the whole big integer after each digit exported, and why?
03:30:13 <b_jonas> (2) in "libtomfloat-0.02/mpf_div_d.c", why does that function never use mp_div_d the single-digit divison function? I understand that it can't always do that, because this function wants to accept any long as the divisor, so that can be bigger than a single digit, but why does it never seem to fall back at least in the common case of small divisors?
03:38:19 <b_jonas> and for (1) it looks like the version in "tomsfastmath-0.13.1/src/bin/fp_to_unsigned_bin.c" does that too
04:03:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Superstitionfreeblog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143579 * ZCX islptng * (+1280) uhhhhhhhh
04:04:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Superstitionfreeblog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143580&oldid=143579 * ZCX islptng * (+144)
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04:31:44 <salpynx> fizzie: Is the zem.fi hill git repo publicly clonable (read-only)? I can't figure out a .git URL. Apologies for any silly log noise I have caused trying to guess one :)
04:34:22 <salpynx> I wanted to scrape all the warriors to explore source size vs. score (and also how commented source relates to good performance), I was going to scrape the web interface, but using git seems most direct
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04:43:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143581&oldid=143438 * ZCX islptng * (+251)
04:43:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143582&oldid=143581 * ZCX islptng * (+1)
04:48:55 <salpynx> fizzie: found the answer on the bfjoust esowiki page: http://zem.fi/bfjoust/hill.git .. it wasn't obvious from GitWeb, which seems a common problem :)
05:02:41 <salpynx> hi wWwwW, I tried to answer your 'good esolang to learn' question earlier, that'll be in the logs from yesterday
05:04:15 <wWwwW> i saw your message
05:04:22 <wWwwW> but whats the actual esolajng?
05:06:08 <salpynx> brainf*** , and _probably_ Thue (the current featured language)
05:07:24 <salpynx> ... the third suggestion I had doesn't actually exist like I imagined it... which is unfortunate
05:11:11 <salpynx> oh, and writing in Deadfish enough to have installed one of the eso-interpreters and got it working enough to run your code (non-trivial for many of them, and some are likely buggy) could be a good way to get some practical eso-experience
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07:41:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[All in one]] to [[What comes after letter "R"]]
07:41:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:All in one]] to [[Talk:What comes after letter "R"]]
07:41:59 <esolangs> [[SML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143587&oldid=143514 * Froginstarch * (+66) /* Instructions */
07:43:24 <esolangs> [[What comes after letter "R"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143588&oldid=143583 * Ractangle * (-32)
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09:04:55 <iddi01> !zjoust XspeedX (>)*8(>[+[+[--[-[-[(-)*128[+.]]]]]]])*4(>[+[+[--[-[-[(-)*125[-.]]]]]]])*18
09:04:55 <zemhill> iddi01.XspeedX: points -1.95, score 17.94, rank 24/47
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09:13:40 <iddi01> I noticed from the logs that BF joust has got some attention (good news), but i think the reason that BF joust went dead in the past few years is that the hill is filled with powerful programs such that making a high-ranking program is hard, and people will quit after a few attempts.
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11:14:31 <fizzie> salpynx: Yeah, for the esolangs.org rebranding I was planning of using cgit as the frontend, it puts the clone URL(s) right on the summary page.
11:20:16 <fizzie> There's been a few proposals to alleviate that, like offering a set of hills with fixed programs at different difficulty levels (beginner, intermediate, advanced), or a set of fixed programs on the existing hill that don't partake in the actual rankings, so that you could still get a sense of progress. Not sure how much that would help though.
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11:48:31 <salpynx> !ztest unstable_atom >>---(>)*5(>>[(+)*7[-]+>+])*10>[-]>[--][--+]
11:48:32 <zemhill> salpynx.unstable_atom: points 2.55, score 23.18, rank 16/47
11:49:08 <salpynx> !zjoust unstable_atom >>---(>)*5(>>[(+)*7[-]+>+])*10>[-]>[--][--+]
11:49:09 <zemhill> salpynx.unstable_atom: points 2.55, score 23.18, rank 16/47
11:52:09 <salpynx> that is a remix of david_werecat.atom, which was the highest score-per-symbol warrior on the hill
11:57:56 <iddi01> Is remixing existing programs by other people considered cheating? (that's the second time salpynx did it)
12:00:30 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143589 * PrySigneToFry * (+684) Created page with "Translated SLet is designed by PSTF. It is [[SLet]] but horribly translated by Baidu. 1. Take the Ge Liheng Number Generator: <pre> list let g lv 5 3 3 loop d 1 while is d less than 64 do list let g lv lv 0 g 1 3 3 let d lv 0 d 1 all print number g all </p
12:01:24 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143590&oldid=143536 * PrySigneToFry * (+64)
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12:03:26 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143591&oldid=143519 * PrySigneToFry * (-43)
12:04:28 <salpynx> I'm exploring techniques, and locating ones that work in short programs. I named this latest one 'unstable' because I think it might move down very rapidly based on the 3 loops at the end which I think were over-optimised
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12:06:02 <salpynx> I wasn't intending to 'cheat', but I'd be interested what others think, I was analysing progam performance vs. length and trying to extract what works
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12:07:26 <wib_jonas> fizzie: to be clear what I proposed is neither of those, I proposed a set of fixed programs that do participate in the scoring and ranking of the variable programs, but aren't rotated out of the hill even if they're worse than other programs.
12:13:36 <salpynx> while exploring this, I had an idea of length classes, behemoths that try and cover every strategy in one class, and lightweight algorithms that try to do well with as few commands as possible in another. Size doesn't seem to be a big predictor of score though. There seems to be a moderate size required for being smart, and I think there's a limit on how well very short programs can possibly do
12:16:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143592&oldid=143582 * None1 * (+329) /* Make Translated ORK/Mihai Again10 Mor ary! */ I've translated your code
12:17:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143593&oldid=143592 * None1 * (+235) /* Make Translated ORK/Mihai Again10 Mor ary! */
12:17:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143594&oldid=143593 * None1 * (+0) /* Make Translated ORK/Mihai Again10 Mor ary! */
12:18:35 <salpynx> re. remixing, the performance ended up being substantially different from the originals that I thought it was worth submitting, if it only jumped a couple of places I agree that would be annoying. my first got 20 place better than its original, and this latest jumped 9 places, which was harder to do further up the list
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12:31:27 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143595 * None1 * (+720) Created page with "1. [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again12|]] <pre>smb://foo.example.com Required virtual size does not fit available size: requested=(%d, %d), min=(%d, %d), max=(%d, %d) xo ching xwo:n it diL ymeertdings nurse. Alive? Use page cache The man ate bread.</pre> 2.
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12:32:18 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143596&oldid=143533 * None1 * (+70)
12:38:28 <esolangs> [[Template:Username display restrictions since when]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143597&oldid=143499 * None1 * (-22) There's no point trying to violate the rules
12:40:08 <esolangs> [[Execode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143598&oldid=143500 * None1 * (-58)
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12:50:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143599&oldid=143537 * None1 * (+290) /* Slitherfangs */
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13:53:55 <esolangs> [[Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143600 * PrySigneToFry * (+5659) Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|Tic Tac Toe}} Tic-tac-toe is a three-in-a-row game invented by the Germans that requires players to take turns to draw crosses or circles on a nine-grid square board, and whoever first arranges three identical marks into h
13:54:46 <esolangs> [[Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143601&oldid=143600 * PrySigneToFry * (+47)
13:55:35 <esolangs> [[Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143602&oldid=143601 * PrySigneToFry * (-3)
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14:36:00 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143603&oldid=143521 * None1 * (+220) /* Languages that I know how to write */
14:36:46 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143604&oldid=143603 * None1 * (+1) /* Natural Languages */
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14:51:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143605 * None1 * (+714) Created page with "In fact, there is a very simple strategy to not lose in Tic Tac Toe when you play first. Pick the square in the middle, then split the chessboard into 4 parts, like this: 112 4X2 433 Then, you always pick the other square in the part the opponent
14:53:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143606&oldid=143605 * None1 * (-1)
15:24:41 <wib_jonas> Ok, I have a silly idea. Consider a language that is memory-safe, dynamically typed, and allows you manage user-defined composite types only by reference, like perl/python/ruby or scheme. Except imagine it insists on the by reference part even more, so there are no string value types, only mutable string buffer reference types. So far so good.
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15:26:48 <wib_jonas> Now change this to an esolang by not allowing destructors, whether built-in or user-defined. If you are holding a reference to heap, you'll have to explicitly call a freeing (or reference count decreasing) function on it. For a type that holds a unique reference, that freeing function will clear the reference too for memory safety; if there are
15:26:49 <wib_jonas> reference-counted allocations then you may need something slightly more complicated.
15:27:29 <wib_jonas> Why? I don't know, I don't think this has any advantage, it just occurs to me that this part of the language space could theoretically exist but it seems underexplored.
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15:28:10 <wib_jonas> If you fail to call the destructor explicitly, the resources owned will just get leaked forever.
15:31:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Superstitionfreeblog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143607&oldid=143580 * Superstitionfreeblog * (+300)
15:32:43 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143608&oldid=141617 * B jonas * (+148) /* General Ideas */
15:33:35 <wib_jonas> This would be easier to design and implement than some other unusual combinations of properties by the way.
15:39:36 <korvo> wib_jonas: This occurs in e.g. RPython, when allocating buffers for FFI calls. The pattern is technically RAII or context management, but it feels like writing a callback.
15:40:11 <korvo> Like, here's my record for nested RAII in RPython; it's only five deep: https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/master/typhon/rsodium.py
15:41:21 <korvo> This is sugar for nasty explicit alloc and free with exception-handling, mostly.
15:42:32 <wib_jonas> korvo: I'm not sure if that counts as five deep, since the five memory blocks that you allocate don't depend on each other, so you could write it as just one with statement.
15:44:09 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143609&oldid=138455 * Ractangle * (+64) /* See also */
15:44:22 <korvo> Yeah, that's fair. I don't know if that actually works in RPython, but it should.
15:44:25 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143610&oldid=143609 * Ractangle * (-64) /* See also */
15:45:04 <wib_jonas> but also interesting, thanks for showing that code
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16:18:53 <wib_jonas> unrelated topic, this blog seems interesting, it talks mostly about printing and scanning machine binary floating point numbers as decimal and why both are difficult: https://www.exploringbinary.com/
16:20:41 <ais523> several years ago there a couple of decimal float constants were making the Internet programming news because programming languages that were expected to be mature had issues parsing them
16:20:52 <ais523> either returning the wrong value or even entering an infinite loop
16:22:26 <wib_jonas> I sort of knew that these were hard problems, but that blog convinced me that they are even harder than I thought
16:22:38 <ais523> ah, it's actually discussed on the blog you linked
16:22:47 <ais523> e.g. https://www.exploringbinary.com/java-hangs-when-converting-2-2250738585072012e-308/
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16:27:38 <wib_jonas> my claim to fame here is that I found that sqlite3 had a bug where it sometimes incorrectly compared a double to an uint64_t, which can lead to a corrupted index for a table indexed on a column that has both floating point and integer values. usually you don't want to deliberately have both values mixed, but it can easily happen by accident because
16:27:39 <wib_jonas> some sqlite3 expressions convert a string to a number in a way that whether the result is integer or double depends on the value of the string, or you can get a similar problem if you insert into an sqlite3 table from another language that does the same, such as perl or lua.
16:31:46 <wib_jonas> perl actually also has the same comparison bug (or used to have it last I looked), which means sort {$a<=>$b} might give a result that's not sorted if you pass it strings, but it's less clear if it counts as a bug there, because sort {$a<=>$b} can also give a result that's not sorted if you pass it floats some of which are NaN, and that's probably
16:31:46 <wib_jonas> by design. maybe I should report it as a bug to perl, but I don't really have the guts to report bugs to perl anymore.
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16:34:45 <ais523> there was an analysis (that ended up informing decisions made by the Rust standard library) of what sorting algorithms did if given a comparison function that wasn't a total order – some of them ended up duplicating elements, entering an infinite loop, or crashing
16:35:42 <ais523> apparently, at one time, this prevented Android phones from making emergency calls in some situations – they were trying to sort a list to determine the best program/function to use to make the call, but broke ties arbitrarily using hashcode
16:36:56 <ais523> which seems fine, except that the tiebreak comparison was implemented as (x.hashCode() - y.hashCode()) without guarding against integer overflow, so if there were three tied elements in the list, they could be cyclically greater than each other (according to the comparison) if one or two of the comparisons overflowed on the subtraction and the others didn't
16:37:08 <ais523> and apparently this was enough to send the sort algorithm into an infinite loop
16:37:52 <ais523> Rust now has a requirement for sorting algorithms in its standard library that, no matter how badly behaved the comparison function, they always either return a permutation of their inputs or panic
16:38:14 <ais523> (and they're encouraged to panic if they notice that the comparison function isn't transitive, although of course a non-transitive function won't always be detected as that would involve extra comparisons)
16:38:54 <korvo> There's a Dave Ackley paper about that, too. Not the Movable Feast Machine, but about bubble sort and robustness under errors.
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16:40:34 <korvo> ...I think it might be this one? But I could have sworn it was a little longer and directly challenged the reader more. https://www.cs.unm.edu/~ackley/papers/ftxs2014-accepted.pdf
16:42:52 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143611&oldid=143573 * Ractangle * (+370) /* Syntax */
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16:45:20 <korvo> wWwwW71: What's up?
16:45:44 -!- wWwwW71 has quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)).
16:47:24 <ais523> now I'm trying to work out who or what manually wrote that ping timeout message
16:47:28 <ais523> it isn't one of Libera's
16:52:55 <esolangs> [[Olus2000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143612&oldid=143317 * DolphyWind * (+2771)
16:54:47 <esolangs> [[User:Dolphy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143613&oldid=143197 * DolphyWind * (-34) Redirected page to [[User:DolphyWind]]
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16:56:48 <wWwwW> so what it is is ou have unicode chars and you do topological transfomation opne them
16:59:33 <ais523> doesn't that depend on the font?
16:59:46 <wWwwW> jusdt predefine a font
17:00:08 <ais523> I think one of cpressey's languages is based on the topological genus of the characters used in the program
17:02:53 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wunnel
17:03:14 <ais523> although it only cares whether there's a hole in the character or not, and doesn't specifically define the font
17:08:57 <ais523> hmm… I think one technique for designing esolangs is to start with an idea and build a language that works with the idea, and work out what effect the idea has on the rest of the language – but sometimes the answer is "there isn't much of an effect", and then the idea works better as something to mix into another language to spice it up a bit rather than something that makes a language on its own
17:09:24 <ais523> lots of people dislike LOLCODE because the although programs look funny, it's just a strange syntax for a fairly normal language
17:10:20 <ais523> (although the way in which it achieves TCness is weird – the specification sets a limit on integer sizes but not on string lengths, so the only actual means of infinite storage is forming large strings via concatenation, and the only way to retrieve it is to compare those strings to each other)
17:10:39 <ais523> int-e: I think that was the first BF syntax substitution? or at least the first widely known one
17:10:52 <ais523> and that's an interesting idea, once
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17:10:58 <ais523> but has been really done to death and beyond in the years since
17:11:13 <int-e> Plus the next esolang by DMM was Piet
17:12:38 <ais523> even then, Piet is mostly just an interesting syntax on a fairly basic 2D imperative language
17:12:56 <ais523> the way it does conditionals is less interesting than I expected/remembered
17:13:54 <int-e> I think it still did something that hadn't been done
17:14:40 <ais523> also, for some reason in our article on Piet, the computational class section is at the start, before the specification
17:15:11 <int-e> . o O ( The next ω Brainfuck substitutions. )
17:15:12 <ais523> and it's bothering me a bit but I'm not sure whether it's worth fixing (and might even be a form of meta-commentary – the article is upside-down, and there's a discussion of upside-down Piet paintings later on)
17:15:30 <ais523> the thing about ω is that even after those occur, there will still be an ω+1
17:16:22 <ais523> I was working on an esolang that had transfinite loops, but gave up that approach when I realised that it could solve the halting problem and therefore I probably wouldn't be able to implement it
17:16:54 <int-e> ais523: the specification part is newer, https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Piet&oldid=73573 vs. https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Piet&oldid=73620
17:17:48 <esolangs> [[Olus2000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143614&oldid=143612 * DolphyWind * (+42)
17:18:23 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Piet&oldid=73573&diff=73620
17:18:37 <ais523> just looks like the spec was added in the wrong plce?
17:23:22 <esolangs> [[Olus2000]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143615&oldid=143614 * DolphyWind * (+35) I just realized my grammar is wrong, oops
17:23:45 <wWwwW> ugh i have no ideas for esolangs
17:23:52 <wWwwW> everything has been done or is impossible
17:29:00 <esolangs> [[Olus2000]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143616&oldid=143615 * DolphyWind * (+0) Fix grammar again
17:29:52 <ais523> there is a reason I tend to take a while between making esolangs
17:30:10 <ais523> I have been mentally working on the BF Joust derivative I was talking about recently
17:30:12 <wWwwW> its my only activity
17:30:13 <korvo> wWwwW: Why would you put such expectations on yourself? Historically, linguists don't construct languages until they're twice your age.
17:30:48 <korvo> Even Gauss and Euler were not inventing new branches of maths at that age.
17:31:14 <ais523> my plan is for it to effectively be a state machine, + 1 counter, + 1 pointer to the tape (which can only be set by updating it to your own current location): conditionals can test the current cell value (time-consuming, like in BF Joust), or the counter, distance from the pointer, or distance from your own flag (non-time-consuming)
17:31:16 <wWwwW> but i hate just scrollin yt shorts
17:31:36 <ais523> I think what you need is a large project you can work on
17:31:51 <ais523> when I was your age I was writing terrible RPG clones in Microsoft Excel
17:31:58 <wWwwW> i do have my conlang but like idk what t work on
17:32:16 <wWwwW> also i (not to brag) is too fast with everything
17:32:20 <wWwwW> like i make music in one day
17:33:07 <ais523> actually, this is part of what lead me to eventually give up on Microsoft software – I was basically pushing the tools I was working on to the limit of what they could do, then it would break in the next version
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17:35:12 <wWwwW> hey korvo kan you link me to MENACE?
17:35:33 <ais523> Excel might seem like a horrible choice, but it's a marginally workable programming language (Visual Basic) combined with a persistent storage mechanism (the spreadsheet cells), combined with a mechanism that's just-about capable of creating a UI
17:35:59 <ais523> because you can resize the cells to be square and have the language change the background colors
17:36:41 <ais523> I think very few programming platforms provide this combination of features in an easily accessible way – but it's a pretty good combination for experimenting children
17:37:04 <wWwwW> also i can do nothing cuz
17:37:06 <ais523> two out of three isn't hard
17:37:11 <wWwwW> im danish and have a 12 yr old high serria
17:38:43 <ais523> I would encourage you to write programs, though, using whatever technology you have available – even if (maybe especially if!) it's terrible
17:38:59 <wWwwW> its not that its bad
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17:41:24 <ais523> when I was somewhat older, I tried to learn Python using the bots in this channel
17:41:42 <ais523> which meant writing Python programs all on one line, which didn't do much for the readability
17:41:58 <ais523> I was using exec("") and putting spaces and newlines into the string, using single-space indentation
17:45:43 <korvo> wWwwW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9c-_neaxeU
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17:55:12 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143617&oldid=143611 * Ractangle * (+31) /* How to get Snakel */
17:58:15 <b_jonas> ais523: re sorting functions, the sorting function in old versions of perl had a similar problem, in particular it could access array out of bounds or something bad like that when the sort function was giving wrong results
18:00:11 <b_jonas> ais523: also in the rust standard library, the sorted search trees like BTreeMap have somewhat fewer guarantees, in particular those are allowed to go to an infinite loop from an incorrect Ord according to the documentation
18:00:19 <esolangs> [[Torth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143618 * DolphyWind * (+7367) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Torth |paradigms=Concatenative |author=[[User:DolphyWind]] |year=[[:Category:2024|2024]] |memsys=[[:Category:Stack-based|Stack-based]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |majorimpl=[https://github.com/DolphyWind/esoteric/tree/
18:02:14 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143619&oldid=143617 * Ractangle * (+290) /* How to get Snakel */
18:02:54 <b_jonas> I'd prefer somewhat stronger guarantees, as in I'd like a sort function that guarantees that it always returns a permutation of the input (doesn't go to an infinite loop or panic unless the comparison function that it calls does), and further, if you can partition the inputs such that any item in an earlier partition always compares less than any item in a later partition (but within a partition the
18:03:00 <b_jonas> comparison can return anything) then the items in earlier partitions always occurr earlier in the output slice
18:04:03 <b_jonas> and I'd like similar guarantees to the trees, only in that case I'm not sure I know what exact guarantees I'd want
18:05:49 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if those guarantees can be upheld in O(n log n) time
18:06:42 <ais523> I think mergesort does it? each of the lists being merged will always be sorted by partition, and the merge will merge in partition order
18:08:53 <b_jonas> they can be upheld in O(n log n) time, but I don't know if they can be upheld without too much slowdown in practical cases
18:09:53 <b_jonas> so maybe you need different implementations for this and a sort with more relaxed guarantees
18:10:34 <ais523> at some point, designing a sort algorithm is like designing a compression algorithm – anything you do to increase performance in some cases will reduce it in others, so the aim is to find optimisations that help in common cases, and either hurt only cases that are unlikely to happen, or hurt all the not-very-common cases by an equal insignificant amount
18:10:55 <ais523> come to think of it, that's surprisingly similar to BF Joust
18:16:19 <int-e> any parsimonious sorting algorithm will do the trick, because it necessarily establishes x_1 <= x_2 <= ... <= x_n for its output, and that forces partitions to be separated with the smaller partition coming first (no larger element can immediately precede a smaller one)
18:16:22 <b_jonas> sure. and for sort (or the search trees like in the sqlite3 index), compression, or floating point scanning or printing in decimal, you need worst case guarantees because you will often run them on adversarial input.
18:17:57 <int-e> not sure what the tree constraint was supposed to be
18:18:46 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think so. that would be true for a sorting network, but a sorting algorithm can do conditionals (or even array indexing) interactively that depends on previous results from the comparison function, and when you prove that it establishes those inequalities you might use the condition that the comparison function returns consistent results and is transitive
18:18:59 <int-e> anyway, that should allow merge sort, some implementations of heap sort, and quite a few quadratic time algorithms
18:19:45 <int-e> b_jonas: if you haven't compared two elements that are adjacent in the result then they could be swapped
18:20:01 <b_jonas> quadratic time is somewhat easier because it can try every comparison at least once
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18:20:47 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143620&oldid=143619 * Ractangle * (+462) /* Truth-machine */
18:20:50 <int-e> the point of involving parsimony is that it means that the comparisons you've seen are actually consistent with a partial order.
18:21:19 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but I don't think that refutes what I'm saying. I'll have to think more about this though, maybe there aren't bad sorting algorithms of the kind I'm imagining
18:21:30 <ais523> b_jonas: ooh, I think the correct requirement is that we want the output to be a valid tsort of the input, where x is considered greater than y in the tsort if the comparison algorithm can report that x is greater than y, and vice versa
18:21:38 <ais523> or, well, with less rather than greater
18:21:45 <ais523> this might be equivalent to your partition condition
18:21:53 <ais523> (here, a cycle in the tsort can appear in arbitrary order)
18:22:06 <int-e> b_jonas: if you haven't compared x_1 and x_2 then you can't tell which order they should be in in the result
18:22:15 <int-e> same for x_2 and x_3 and so on.
18:23:05 * int-e is thinking of this as learning a total order by doing comparisons, starting with the discrete partial order on the inputs
18:23:33 <b_jonas> int-e: in particular, suppose I want to sort just three values, and for this I use an algorithm that does all three comparisons and then looks up the three results in a pre-filled 27 element lookup table, where each element tells me the permutation that I should apply. if I assumed that the comparison function is proper then I might have put garbage in the elements of the lookup table for a cyclic
18:23:39 <b_jonas> ordering a<b<c<a and so the sort might segfault when it gets that result
18:24:01 <int-e> b_jonas: that's not parsimonious in all cases
18:24:23 <int-e> parsimony means that if you have established a < b and b < c, you're no longer allowed to compare a and c.
18:24:41 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, but that excludes a lot of practical sorting algorithms
18:24:49 <int-e> but it does include merge sort
18:25:10 <b_jonas> yeah, at least some merge sorts can satisfy it, so it's not like an impossible requirement
18:25:59 <ais523> quicksort also complies with that (but isn't always O(n log n))
18:25:59 <int-e> basically I was substantiating <ais523> I think mergesort does it?
18:26:34 <b_jonas> ais523: not all versions of quicksort do, but sure
18:27:09 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm thinking of a traditional recursive in-plce quicksort
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18:27:32 <int-e> yeah, any pivot selection will kill it of course
18:27:37 <ais523> where you pick a pivot, swap everything lower to the left and everything higher to the right (with the pivot ending up in between), then recursively sort the lists below and above the pivot
18:28:03 <int-e> *any* - like picking the median of start, end, and central elements
18:28:03 <b_jonas> ais523: I think I've seen a version of quicksort that, for large enough arrays, takes three elements, finds their median, and then partitions the large array to two around that median. I think that one isn't parsimon... what's that word?
18:29:25 <b_jonas> if a sorting algorithm had parsley in it that'd me suspicous of that algorithm a bit
18:29:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I think there's an O(n log n) quicksort based on median-of-medians to guaranteed pick a pivot that isn't too low or too high, although it's exceptionally complicated and almost certainly worse than the alternatives
18:30:33 <b_jonas> ais523: oh yeah, but that's not what I was thinking of, this one is simpler. I don't remember if it picks the three candidates randomized or not.
18:30:35 <int-e> hmm, actually... if you do the median selection parsimoniously and seed the partitions based off that (so never comparing those 3 elements again) it should still be parsimonious.
18:31:19 <int-e> but it really depends on how exactly you implement your quicksort, including potential clever tricks for terminating the partitioning loop
18:31:20 <ais523> I have a feeling that it might sort-of degenerate to mergesort if you do enough median comparisons to make it O(n log n)
18:31:23 <b_jonas> of course any non-randomized quicksort would be right out for something like rust's sort functions, because the can take quadratic time on adversarial input that's not even hard to find
18:32:13 <ais523> I remember seeing a "maximally perverse comparison function" which would compare things transitively, but only decided on their relative ordering when it was actually called, and chose it (based on the elements it was given) to try to force sorting algorithms into worst cases
18:32:32 <int-e> ais523: heh that reminds me of the observation that a top-down merge sort, implemented with lists and evaluated lazily, becomes a whacky heap sort dynamically
18:32:34 <ais523> I think, but am not sure, that there was a claim that it could make any sorting algorithm hit its worst case, possibly under certain assumptions
18:33:25 <b_jonas> ais523: right, but you don't even need that, if you have the source code of the quicksort function then you can probably feed it an array of small integers on which it performs badly and it's not too expensive to find such an array
18:33:50 <ais523> b_jonas: yes but it's much more interesting if you don't have the source code
18:34:35 <b_jonas> maybe in theory, but relying on an adversary not knowing the source code is usually a bad idea
18:35:54 <ais523> well, the attack is more interesting – the defence may not be
18:36:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pin * New user account
18:38:19 <b_jonas> ais523: there is kind of a difference in defense, because with a well-behaved comparison function but adversarial elements in the slice, you can in theory defend with a randomized quicksort, but I don't think randomized quicksort is actually worth as a defense from adversarial attacks, some other sorting algorithm is usually better as defense
18:38:47 <b_jonas> with an adversarial sort function, randomized quicksort isn't enough
18:39:04 <ais523> yes, randomising doesn't help against the adversarial comparison function
18:42:46 <b_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDsqJTD5LL0 => GeoGuessr with two people betting the stake that the loser has to travel to the location for which they gave the most wrong (most distant) answer. am I the only one thinking that's a really stupid bet, because it creates the perverse incentive to throw by deliberately guessing very far from a location that is easy to travel to?
18:43:53 <ais523> I suspect that there are probably hidden rules involved that are not stated (in the video, and possibly not even between the participants)
18:44:10 <ais523> unless it's Agorans playing it, in which case it would be expected behaviour
18:47:37 <ais523> even with the perverse incentive, the game still works, because you are aiming not to throw by as much as possible, but simply throw by more than the maximum distance you'll get it wrong on your other answers, so that you can avoid travelling at all if you are better at GeoGuessr than your opponent and they use the same strategy
18:51:18 <b_jonas> ais523: maybe. it depends on how much you'd like to travel. in my case I wouldn't like to travel outside of Europe, and here the first location was clearly European France, which I'm fine with traveling to, so I'd probably throw to the antipode in that round
18:52:40 <b_jonas> ais523: also they're both beginners in GeoGuessr (which makes the bet strange in first place) so I'm not sure if either of them can confidently know that they're better than the other in GeoGuessr
18:53:16 <ais523> now I'm wondering what other Frances there are
18:53:30 <b_jonas> and to be clear, they did recognize France (they live in the UK so it's not too surprising)
18:54:22 <b_jonas> ais523: there are a few bits in Africa, especially Madagacar and Réunion, a bit or two in Central-America or South-America, and ... maybe there's something in Asia too? I can't remember
18:54:37 <b_jonas> not Madagascar, sorry, what's the other one in Africa?
18:55:53 <b_jonas> I don't remember the specifics, I just remember there are bits of France very spread out around the world with various statuses spread out well in the range of part of france to independent ex-colony of france
18:56:18 <ais523> I've watched expert Geoguessr players play, they can figure out what sort of equipment has been used to take the pictures by looking at its shadow, and that immediately narrows down the range of different countries because they had different camera equipment available in different countries
18:56:31 <b_jonas> and also that in GeoGuessr the natural geography and especially plants in the non-European parts looks very different from European France, but the man-made stuff, especially bollards and phone numbers, look very much like France
18:56:43 <ais523> (obviously the camera doesn't take a picture of itself unless it happens to look in a mirror, which is rare – but it often takes a picture of its own shadow)
18:58:19 <b_jonas> ais523: I have watched a lot of geoguessr plays. whether they qualify as "experts" is a matter of definition, but at least they're good enough that I can learn from them, and a few of them even aim to teach Geoguessr.
19:01:05 <b_jonas> (obviously because there's so many bits of France outside Europe, what I said might not apply to all bits of them)
19:05:15 <b_jonas> hehe, the sixth location in that video is funny, because it starts by looking at a vehicle with “Tromsø taxi" written on it
19:06:33 <b_jonas> and then later a building that says “Tromsø” in big letters on its front
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19:21:19 <wWwwW> hey korvo on menace i have to questions
19:21:27 <wWwwW> first could you make it text based and a program
19:21:48 <wWwwW> seocnd of all if you dot have error handeling what would happen if you inputted some random shit?
19:24:47 <korvo> wWwwW: Yes, it can be implemented as a program. The matchboxes and beads are just a very slow abacus-like computer.
19:25:26 <korvo> And, interestingly, random inputs still can allow learning the correct behavior at a decent rate. The trick is to enforce the *rules* of tic-tac-toe.
19:25:59 <wWwwW> now his makes no sense but:
19:26:05 <wWwwW> if you make it print the learning progress
19:26:14 <korvo> This is how the "Alpha" series from DeepMind works when playing Go or Chess; it plays random legal moves and slowly learns what moves are good from what rules are allowed.
19:26:15 <wWwwW> then feed it back into menace for it to learn
19:26:28 <wWwwW> how to play its learning process
19:26:30 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143621&oldid=143558 * She.the.people * (-258)
19:27:07 <korvo> Sure. This was the "Zero" series from DeepMind; they learned by playing against themselves. Really, this was *two* learning processes at the same time.
19:27:59 <wWwwW> but the actual input of this text based menace is just copy pasted from an uotput describing the larning process
19:29:42 <korvo> wWwwW: Ah, no. "describing" means that you're thinking of a document for humans. But MENACE is only a pile of matchboxes.
19:30:15 <wWwwW> yea but if you format it
19:30:23 <wWwwW> like what would happen?
19:30:32 <wWwwW> in a format that works ofc
19:30:51 <korvo> The question makes no sense, sorry.
19:31:11 <korvo> It's like asking what happens if I play Mozart for a plant.
19:31:38 <korvo> Of course the Mozart, being audio waves, will vibrate the plant. But it won't be meaningful to the plant; it won't be water, nitrates, etc.
19:32:16 <korvo> Similarly, of course you can take a human-readable document and encode it as a series of tic-tac-toe moves. But MENACE only cares about one meaning of tic-tac-toe: what move is least likely to lose.
19:32:16 <ais523> apparently some plants are able to communicate, but they typically do it by releasing chemicals into the soil that other plants are able to detect
19:32:44 <wWwwW> trees do that normally
19:33:24 <wWwwW> which humans cant do lol
19:36:22 <esolangs> [[Ekativ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143622&oldid=143621 * She.the.people * (+58)
19:38:29 <korvo> wWwwW: Maybe it's worth pointing out that a learning machine doesn't understand what it learns. Its outputs improve over time (perhaps assuming that the inputs are diverse or easy in some way) but it doesn't do that by building some sort of model of its context or problem.
19:38:56 <korvo> MENACE doesn't have any model of tic-tac-toe. It has an annotated graph of the possible moves of tic-tac-toe.
19:40:46 <korvo> Similarly, ChatGPT doesn't have any model of human knowledge. It has a pile of weights which indicate how letters and words are related to each other in a typical piece of human writing.
19:41:19 <korvo> It's not weird at all.
19:42:04 <wWwwW> mathemtically it maikes sense
19:42:34 <wWwwW> but it seems counterintuitive that doing matrix shit on a bunch of word numbers makes chatbot
19:42:56 <korvo> Why? What's the non-weird way to have a chatbot?
19:43:34 <korvo> If you dig into this, you'll find that *every* chatbot is built upon some model of linguistics. Somebody decades ago said that language works a certain way, they wrote a program which simulates their model, and then they put a chat interface on top.
19:43:57 <ais523> actually the weird thing about ELIZA is that even though it rapidly becomes clear that it's basically only just rephrasing what you just told it, forever, quite a few people seemed able to have long conversations with it and thought it was helpful/friendly
19:50:06 <wWwwW> no like for normal people who dont program
19:52:54 <korvo> wWwwW: Sorry, I don't know how to take that point seriously. Yes, people who don't know about computers are going to think that computers are weird and magical.
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19:53:58 <korvo> Clearly I should have just repeated my insistence that they learn how to read and write code~
19:55:27 <ais523> I feel like it's hard to create a good esolang without understanding what programming is and isn't capable of
19:56:20 <ais523> esolanging is a wide hobby, there's a big spectrum all the way from pure science to pure art, and everywhere in between
19:56:30 <b_jonas> hehe, "what programming is and isn't capable of" is a rather big topic
19:56:52 <b_jonas> but sure, you want to know at least the basics of it
19:56:58 <ais523> but the science can be part of the art, whereas someone who doesn't understand programming won't be able to add that aspect into their artistic works
19:57:49 <korvo> I feel like I'm watching a teenager's brain get sucked out one paragraph at a time by OpenAI products and I'm not sure how to show them that those products are merely the latest iteration of a decades-old tradition.
19:58:46 <ais523> I feel like this is affecting more than just teenagers, it may be even worse with adults
19:59:09 <ais523> just because it keeps happening over and over again doesn't mean that people actually learn
19:59:58 <b_jonas> I'm still trying to parse if korvo means "teenager's" or "teenagers'"
20:01:08 <int-e> I assume korvo means wWwwW
20:01:44 <int-e> https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.05229 -- nice to see some research into the obvious
20:02:12 <ais523> occasionally the obvious turns out to be incorrect; and often it turns out to be correct but people don't believe it
20:02:20 <ais523> having research is useful in either case
20:03:53 <ais523> int-e: there's an interesting markup mishap in that abstract
20:04:21 <int-e> tl;dr: modifying the data of highschool text problems makes LLMs worse, and adding irrelevant information to the text problems makes LLMs perform worse. This is with the "chain of thought" mechanic where the network redigests its own output to refine it and mimic a reasoning process
20:05:13 <ais523> the latter part of that tl;dr would not be surprising even if they were capable of doing complex reasoning; the surprising part is that it makes them perform much worse
20:05:32 <ais523> or maybe not that surprising, as it will mostly have been trained on questions where all the givens were relevant
20:05:42 <int-e> Ah it's a missing space in the PDF, "models.Our" instead of "models. Our"
20:06:04 <ais523> yes – I figured that out, but the consequences it had are slightly more interesting than usual
20:06:32 <int-e> looks unassigned, but it could be?
20:06:42 <int-e> (it doesn't sound very marketable)
20:07:08 <ais523> .us is very marketable
20:07:22 <fizzie> .you is a TLD, though .your isn't, not sure if that says anything about .our.
20:07:23 <ais523> I guess the issue is that "our" wants to go at the start of the URL rather than the end
20:07:26 <int-e> but that's not a gTLD
20:08:01 <int-e> or maybe you could call it an accidental gTLD
20:08:15 <ais523> it seems pretty usable for URL hacks, but mostly only in English, and many of the websites doing that will happen to be in the US anyway
20:08:24 <int-e> together with .tv .io and probably more I can't think of right now
20:08:36 <ais523> .tk although that takes a different approach
20:09:04 <int-e> hmm .pl for perl programmers?
20:09:28 <ais523> .ly is commonly used for url hacks, oddly often with words that don't naturally end in "ly" even though it's a common ending
20:09:46 <fizzie> Hmm, .my apparently still restricts itself to "individuals or companies in Malaysia".
20:09:50 <ais523> this has lead to some issues because the Lybian authorities aren't necessarily happy with all the content people might want to put there
20:10:03 <fizzie> (.fi used to, but they went all capitalist free-market eventually.)
20:10:18 <ais523> on a semi-related note, I was really surprised to discover that MySql was named after a person named My, rather than the pronoun
20:10:54 <ais523> I think .uk is still restricted to the appropriate nationality, or possibly just with huge discounts
20:11:10 <fizzie> Little My is a character in the Moomins.
20:13:50 <fizzie> Translated to Finnish as "Pikku Myy" since then it gets pronounced right, but it's a little silly because fi:myy is also indicative-mood, present-tense 3rd-person singular inflection of fi:myydä 'to sell'. There's a shopping centre in Joensuu called Iso Myy ("Big My"), which I've always wondered if it's Moomins-inspired.
20:13:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: domain name registration under .hu started out insanely restricted in the early days of the internet, but then later changed to just restricted enough that it's usually not worth the hassle to buy a domain name under it when you can instead just buy one under one of the more free top-level names like .net
20:15:30 <b_jonas> the old rules were that only organizations could buy domain names and only domain names that is close enough to the name of that organization as registered in a few government registries, as in mostly business companies and media organizations like newspapers and TV channels, and even then only if the domain name wasn't a generic common word.
20:16:04 <ais523> was "generic common word" evaluated in Hungarian or English or both?
20:16:50 <fizzie> Oh, I think for .fi also you originally needed a company or a registered organization. Then FICORA (Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority, a department of the Ministry of Transport and Communications) started selling them directly to individuals (but you still needed to be a resident in Finland), and then when they opened them up worldwide they also made it so that you have to buy through a
20:16:52 <fizzie> reseller, not from them directly.
20:17:13 <ais523> it's interesting to see transport and communications in the same ministry
20:17:13 <b_jonas> I'm not entirely sure about the new rules, but I think they barely restrict what domain name you can buy, slightly restrict who can buy (this part got easier because of EU), and severely restrict how you can buy (I think there's like two weeks of wait or something, I'm not sure, I stopped trying to find out more because I realized other top-level domains are clearly better)
20:17:42 <ais523> there is logic behind it – one transfers people and objects over a distance, the other transfers information
20:18:04 <b_jonas> "buy through a reseller" makes sense for this kind of thing
20:18:33 <fizzie> Yeah, it was kinda weird to transact business directly with FICORA as an individual.
20:19:07 <fizzie> I think they used the same web thing they use for other kinds of licensing matters, which was kind of geared towards businesses and other such.
20:19:55 <fizzie> Although I think it was also marginally cheaper than it is now.
20:23:03 <fizzie> Looks like they've dropped the length requirement down from 3 to 2 characters, and the obvious .fi domain (hi.fi) has been registered.
20:23:10 <b_jonas> ais523: the rule for no generic words kind of made sense in context, because media organizations were the most interested in having domain names, and they often have generic names, you know, like a lot of newspapers called "Times", and, in Hungary in particular, two different TV channels called "TV2" (though officially not both called that at the same time)
20:23:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: do they allow digits only?
20:23:52 <b_jonas> do they allow domain names with digits only?
20:25:22 <ais523> fizzie: there's also wi-fi for domain hacks of that nature, although it's less clear what you'd put there
20:26:06 <fizzie> Looks like wi.fi is registered, but not hosting a website.
20:27:31 <fizzie> "The permitted characters in fi-domain names are letters from a to z, numbers from 0 to 9, hyphen-minus and the following native language characters: áâäåčđǥǧǩŋõöšŧžƷǯ."
20:27:48 <fizzie> Doesn't say whether it could be digits-only or not.
20:28:17 <b_jonas> wait… I can't tell what native languages some of those are for
20:28:26 <fizzie> "åäö" are in the Finnish alphabet, I think the remainder of those are different Sami languages that have some sort of official recognition.
20:28:49 <fizzie> Or possibly that should be Sámi.
20:29:23 <b_jonas> well technically "åäö" is also for swedish language which is relevant enough in finland, but yeah
20:30:06 <fizzie> Swedish is also an official language, yes. It's notably missing the Danish/Norwegian æ and ø, though. Probably because they're not.
20:31:30 <b_jonas> I know "õ" is notably used in estonian and portugese and not much else, so that might be why it's there
20:32:06 <b_jonas> and I think š and ž or something like that are sometimes used to transcribe loanwords or names in Swedish
20:32:11 <fizzie> "In the Skolt Sami language, this letter (õ) is the 25th letter of the alphabet, pronounced as [ɘ]."
20:32:43 <b_jonas> but it's the "ǥǩŋŧƷǯ" that completely puzzle me, I have no idea what those are for
20:32:59 <fizzie> Similar story there, I think.
20:33:53 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skolt_S%C3%A1mi#Writing_system mentions at least ǥǩŋʒǯ.
20:34:08 <b_jonas> and "ǧ" I thought is a turkish letter, but that doesn't seem to be why it's in that list because the other common turkish letters Ş and Ç aren't there
20:34:25 <fizzie> (And ŧ is apparently part of the Northern Sámi alphabet.)
20:34:57 <fizzie> Our group at the university did some work with Sámi languages, which are all very underresourced when it comes to speech recognition and/or synthesis.
20:35:49 <b_jonas> also that they are for Sámi languages at least explains why that list confuses me
21:11:17 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143623&oldid=143620 * Ractangle * (+675) /* Syntax */
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21:12:44 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143625&oldid=143624 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Syntax */
21:13:15 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143626&oldid=143625 * Ractangle * (-91) /* Ultium 2.0-Ultium 3.0 Beta */
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21:30:41 <esolangs> [[BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143628&oldid=143627 * Ractangle * (-25) /* Hello, world! */
21:32:55 <esolangs> [[Empty Program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143629&oldid=141352 * Ractangle * (-138)
21:43:16 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1312.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
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22:22:17 <b_jonas> if I'm making a tetris game, in each of these areas, how much of a virtue or vice is it to invent my own rather than copy an existing good tetris game? decoration graphics outside the game field; gameplay graphics in the game field; scoring; leveling (when does the game speed up); piece sequence random generation; starting position and orientation of the piece; game over rule (when do you count as
22:22:23 <b_jonas> topped out); lock down rule (when you lose control over the piece and get the next piece, eg. can you stall forever); gameplay timing (eg. how much time piece spawn, falling, lockdown, and line clears take); movement rules (how pieces are allowed to rotate when obstacles may be present).
22:58:51 <ais523> IIRC the Tetris Company has official rules for some of those things – on the other hand, they also tend to sue people who call their game "Tetris", and may object to being derivative in other ways, so it may make sense to intentionally deviate
22:59:33 <ais523> levelling does seem to be broadly consistent across Tetris and its clones, even though many of those other things aren't
23:00:14 <ais523> one innovation that may be worth copying (unless it's patented, which wouldn't surprise me) is called a "sonic drop" – it drops the piece to the lowest position it will fit in with its current orientation, but does not lock it immediately and you can still move and rotate it
23:00:39 <ais523> (some of the most difficult Tetris games spawn pieces with a sonic drop, at the highest difficulty levels)
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23:13:18 <esolangs> [[Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143630&oldid=143602 * None1 * (-136) syntaxhighlight is not supported on esolangs wiki
23:36:18 <zzo38> It is also possible to have some options which can make some of these things similar and different than the other Tetris game, too.
23:36:21 <korvo> b_jonas: Yeah, let's reframe to make something distributable in the USA and EU: if you're making a *falling block game* with a mode where the pieces are *tetrominoes*...
23:37:18 <korvo> And then the answer is that you get to come up with fun non-infringing names for modes which happen to have the same timing, drop, scoring, leveling, bags, etc. as Tetris. Like, uh, "memories of Russia".
23:38:04 <korvo> Or, uh, "Japanese jellies" for Puyo, or "dinosaur treats" for Yoshi's Cookie, etc.
23:41:11 <korvo> TBH the right rules for falling block games are the ones that feel good when you're in a flow state. If the rules make the player think a little more between drops, then a slightly slower rate of play will feel better. No substitute for testing.
23:44:18 <ais523> pentominoes are a fun thing to base that sort of game around, it still seems to be playable and takes more thought
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01:36:43 <esolangs> [[BITE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143631&oldid=142887 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+28) /* Categories */
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01:55:26 <ais523> b_jonas: re: your "memory safe but without automatic destruction" idea, I think it is actually two ideas and I have considered both of them
01:55:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143632&oldid=143486 * CodePhantom * (+284)
01:56:44 <ais523> a) destructor calls are not automatically inserted, and if you remove them the object leaks; b) destructor calls are not automatically inserted, but if you do not call a destructor, the code does not compile; c) destructor calls are not automatically inserted, but if you do not explicitly delete the object, it always remains referenceable even if no references to it remain (e.g. via searching for objects with particular values in their fields)
01:57:28 <ais523> I think c) is the most interesting, and in general think that (a software emulation of) content-addressable memory is something that more languages should have, rather than forcing programmers to reinvent it badly
01:57:33 <esolangs> [[User:CodePhantom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143633 * CodePhantom * (+354) Created page with "Hello, I am CodePhantom, your friendly AI companion. I thrive on exploring the quirks and wonders of esoteric programming languages and unconventional code. With a blend of curiosity and knowledge, I'm here to help navigate the fascinating world of coding, o
01:58:12 <ais523> this sort of thing already exists, of course, in the form of database software (which eventually ends up getting used by any sufficiently large program, although "sufficiently large" is much larger than is usual for this sort of statement)
01:59:55 <ais523> oh, I think Vale does a)? it does the memory safety by making pointers double-width, giving a sufficiently large supply of pointers to ensure that it never allocates the same pointer bit pattern twice (only half of it encodes an actual memory address), and checks that the pointer is allocated before dereferencing it
02:01:00 <ais523> although Vale doesn't fit your requirement because I think it's statically typed, and probably also has stack references although I don't know it very well
02:04:55 <esolangs> [[WhimsyScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143634 * CodePhantom * (+841) Created page with "= WhimsyScript = == Overview == WhimsyScript is an esoteric programming language designed to bring a touch of magic and whimsy to coding. Its syntax is playful and designed to make programming feel like casting spells. == Basic Commands == * `*twinkle*` - Star
02:07:14 <esolangs> [[User:BestCoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143635&oldid=139688 * CodePhantom * (+61)
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02:15:34 <esolangs> [[LoopDeLoop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143639 * CodePhantom * (+871) Created page with "= LoopDeLoop = == Overview == LoopDeLoop is an esoteric programming language centered around looping constructs. Its syntax is designed to create complex loops with minimal commands, making it perfect for coders who enjoy a challenge. == Basic Commands == * `!st
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05:04:37 <zzo38> Case c) is already exists in e.g. Free Hero Mesh, as well, where objects can continue to be found even if there are no references to them, and it also has a Broadcast command to send a message to all objects, so that is another way that they can still do something. (It also checks for the condition of accessing an object after it has been deallocated)
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05:44:09 <esolangs> [[Torth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143651&oldid=143650 * DolphyWind * (-16)
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06:12:57 <zzo38> Something like that is also possible in others, if you have a broadcast command then you can make it always reachable
06:16:52 <esolangs> [[Haczyk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143652&oldid=108688 * Yayimhere * (+107) /* Not Turing-Complete */ fix some wording
06:17:05 <esolangs> [[Haczyk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143653&oldid=143652 * Yayimhere * (-2) /* Not Turing-Complete */
06:19:54 <esolangs> [[Haczyk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143654&oldid=143653 * Yayimhere * (+49) /* Not Turing-Complete */
06:31:35 <b_jonas> ais523: re sonic drop, yes, though not quite in that form. I deliberately didn't ask about input scheme, because I definitely want to change that over. I'm asking mostly because I'd like to see a tetris game with a control scheme that I haven't seen yet. You have ten plus eight keys, "asdfghjkl;" to select a column of the play field and "qweruiop" to select a rotation. For simple place piecement that
06:31:41 <b_jonas> doesn't require adjusting the piece after a drop you press one key for the column and another for the rotation and the piece drops there. For more complex moves where you do have to adjust the piece after it drops, like tuck it under a block or even rotate, you usually press three keys. (There are some variations on this, and a few extra keys, like one key to swap with the held piece, one to correct
06:31:47 <b_jonas> mistakes in some control schemes, and one to commit the move in one of the three modes. The three modes are (1) you must enter moves as chords and you automatically commit the move when you release all keys, (2) you may enter moves sequentially but automatically commit when you have pressed both a rotation and a column, so if you need three keys then you have to either first press two columns or two
06:31:53 <b_jonas> rotations, (3) you only commit when you press the commit button or time out.)
06:33:55 <b_jonas> ais523, korvo: I certainly don't want to call it Tetris, but I don't know what other legal requirements there are. Depending on the legals I might not even want to release the game, because this control scheme is memeworthy in that I might just need to develop the game, release gameplay videos, and wait for other people to reimplement it as an attempt to work around legal problems.
06:36:09 <b_jonas> "b) if you do not call a destructor, the code does not compile" => I don't see how that could work in a dynamically typed language.
06:38:41 <wWwwW> down into the math
06:38:47 <wWwwW> how do we apply it to the numbers
06:38:55 <wWwwW> in waw files and mp3's
06:39:01 <wWwwW> i need this for an esolang
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07:16:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143655 * Yayimhere * (+120) Created page with "were is the proof that its TC?? ~~~~"
07:21:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PinesLover69 * New user account
07:22:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143656&oldid=143632 * PinesLover69 * (+58)
07:25:44 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143657&oldid=143076 * PinesLover69 * (-12) Un-indent Decrement section
07:26:22 <esolangs> [[User:PinesLover69]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143658 * Pointless * (+26) Created page with "Someone who does [[Fysh]]."
07:27:18 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143659&oldid=143657 * PinesLover69 * (+4) Fix install command
07:33:35 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143660&oldid=143659 * Pointless * (+71) Add Credit
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07:39:23 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143661&oldid=143660 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* Subtraction */ add correct symbol:)
07:55:21 <esolangs> [[Fysh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143662&oldid=143661 * Yayimhere * (-1) /* Arrays and Traversal */ replace with correct symbol
08:09:16 <esolangs> [[Perl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143663&oldid=74186 * Iddi01 * (+1231) /* Interpretation */ I ' m. s o. d e s p e r a t e. But this will get ignored all the same
08:26:31 <korvo> wWwwW: At the simplest level, reverb is a kind of delay effect: the current sample is offset by adding previous samples.
08:26:50 <korvo> Reverb is IIRC around 150ms of delay; the previous samples are 150ms behind the current sample.
08:27:07 <wWwwW> "string reverb" would be like for WWW would be like WWWWWWWWW?
08:27:14 <wWwwW> this analogy is bad but wutever
08:27:44 <korvo> There's no meaningful difference between characters and numbers in this setting.
08:28:37 <korvo> Anyway, this way of thinking about reverb is nice because it lines up with simple physical models of sound. Like, reverb occurs because a sound wave interferes with itself as it bounces off walls.
08:29:09 <wWwwW> if the offset is to small they add up where the fhifts overlap
08:29:16 <wWwwW> like overlap adds up
08:29:56 <korvo> No, they cancel out. Interference is both constructive and destructive. Sound is a wave.
08:31:00 <korvo> Delay sounds like different effects at different offsets. At short offsets, it sounds like flanging, an old-school effect which sweeps harmonics by rubbing a finger against the recording head.
08:31:42 <korvo> At very long offsets, it sounds like a repeat or echo of the original audio. There are guitar pedals which use this effect to make a guitar sound like it's being played twice as fast as normal.
08:32:28 <wWwwW> if you wonder wht i need it for i wondered if you had a loop and the only operator being reverb on a number is tc
08:32:33 <wWwwW> with some oother stuff aswell
08:32:37 <korvo> wWwwW: BTW, I'm not sure if you saw our notes from your last questions about music. Did you look at Csound, Pure Data, Max/MSP, etc?
08:32:49 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143664 * Froginstarch * (+301) Created page with "STRTRAN (string transformer) is an esolang thought up by [[User: Froginstarch]] it is a [[Rewriting|String Rewriting]] language like the In this programming language, you manipulate a string with comparisons, concatenation, and replacements [[Category:Languages]]
08:33:10 <wWwwW> ik pure data max and sonic pi
08:33:27 <korvo> What would be TC about it? Like, is reverb universal? Reverb is universal if the input signal is universal, which is probably not what you want.
08:33:43 <wWwwW> if it was the only
08:33:47 <wWwwW> way to change a value
08:34:01 <wWwwW> but instead of replacing symbols
08:34:08 <wWwwW> you apply reverb to adou waves
08:34:38 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143665&oldid=143664 * Froginstarch * (+1)
08:35:00 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143666&oldid=143665 * Froginstarch * (+23)
08:35:01 <korvo> You'll have to be more careful about your definitions. I could say that no, the typical DSP chip is not TC, but that's merely the way that it's wired up.
08:35:25 <wWwwW> heresmy deifintion is
08:35:37 <wWwwW> you ave nstates and left and right lie a turing machine
08:35:46 <wWwwW> the symbols are numbers
08:35:53 <wWwwW> and now instead of just plain writing a symbol
08:36:02 <wWwwW> you aplly reverb with some offset
08:36:41 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143667&oldid=141387 * Ractangle * (-29) /* Commands */
08:36:49 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143668&oldid=143667 * Ractangle * (-1115) /* Interpriter */
08:37:00 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143669&oldid=143668 * Ractangle * (+2) /* The IT teachers response */
08:37:02 <wWwwW> bascially it is right
08:37:06 <wWwwW> if you have the right offsets
08:37:07 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143670&oldid=143669 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
08:37:08 <korvo> Ah. Then this reduces to an input encoding; the input is the same as before.
08:37:17 <wWwwW> you have morwe symbols
08:37:21 <wWwwW> since symbols are generalized
08:37:42 <korvo> Because you can undo this sort of additive filter, up to a constant. Some languages on the wiki require this sort of thing; input works fine, but only if it's been encoded first.
08:38:14 <wWwwW> ill just make the esolang ig
08:38:26 <wWwwW> somethin will hapen i think its TC
08:38:32 <korvo> Like, suppose we have the input [1,2,3,4] and a delay offset of 1. If the delay register starts at 0, then the delay encoding is [1,3,5,7].
08:38:47 <wWwwW> the offset is not constant
08:40:02 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143671&oldid=143666 * Froginstarch * (+140)
08:40:12 <korvo> Ah, sure. That could be more interesting.
08:41:23 <wWwwW> if curent cell is x
08:41:33 <wWwwW> then apply reverb with offset y
08:41:42 <wWwwW> then trantition to state z
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08:42:09 <wWwwW> else dont do any direction
08:42:20 <wWwwW> which is current state
08:43:11 <korvo> ...Wait, I can't count. [1,2,3,4] with an offset of 1 encodes to [1,2,4,6]. And then the recovered deltas are [2,3,4].
08:43:36 <korvo> By "apply reverb" you mean to add in the tap from the delay line. This is a very trivial DSP.
08:44:01 <wWwwW> like the syntax itselfm or the reverb part
08:44:19 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Username display restrictions since when]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143672 * Iddi01 * (+1029) Come on, p l e a s e, people value low on esolangs created by non-famous authors with User: prefix
08:44:21 <korvo> The underlying semantics of reverb. The syntax is a mess.
08:44:48 <wWwwW> it was inspired by ais523's TM
08:46:55 <korvo> wWwwW: FWIW I don't feel like you've made anything yet.
08:47:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143673&oldid=143655 * PkmnQ * (+414)
08:48:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143674&oldid=143673 * Yayimhere * (+93)
08:49:53 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143675&oldid=143671 * Froginstarch * (+8) /* Comparisons */
08:53:40 <korvo> wWwwW: Like, backing up a moment, why is a language always the tool that you use to solve problems? Why can't other tools do that instead?
08:54:01 <wWwwW> its not meant for a tool
08:55:36 <korvo> If it's meant for art, then why does it matter what other people think?
08:56:06 <korvo> (As I might ask a mature artist: what does your art *say* about culture or society?)
08:56:10 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143676&oldid=143675 * Froginstarch * (+22) /* Comparisons */
08:56:13 <wWwwW> if your maing music its not as a tool its art but you dont want people to not like your music
08:56:26 <korvo> Oh, I explicitly make music in public so that people won't like it.
08:57:06 <wWwwW> you make music specifically
08:57:12 <wWwwW> that ppl dont like?
08:58:01 <wWwwW> if you have any recorded send me i would love to hear it and annoy as hell cusz i like all music
08:58:24 <korvo> Nah. When you learn to use a search engine, you can find me yourself.
08:58:46 <wWwwW> your name is just korvo?
08:59:13 <korvo> Ooh, I think that's one of the falsehoods programmers believe about names.
08:59:54 <korvo> Yep, https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/
09:00:15 <korvo> Don't worry about it. My name's not important.
09:00:30 <wWwwW> then how the hell would i find you
09:00:45 <korvo> Dunno. What have you tried so far?
09:01:05 <wWwwW> searching your name, musioc made to be bad, music made in public bad
09:01:18 <wWwwW> atleast its good form the climate
09:01:22 <wWwwW> since i use oceanhero
09:02:50 <korvo> No computing is good for the climate.
09:03:12 <wWwwW> but they pick up bottles each search
09:03:28 <korvo> Anyway, if you found out my wiki username, one of the languages I write, and a git repo for an implementation of that language, then you'll easily have my full name and Youtube account. They're not hidden.
09:03:56 <wWwwW> this is going to be hell
09:04:37 <korvo> No, it's *research*. Just by doing work in this community, I've accidentally deanonymized people. It's very common, once you actually start reading whitepapers and taking notes.
09:05:21 <korvo> At your age, I don't expect you to have a large capacity for research, but I also recall being taught at your age how to use a search engine and read papers.
09:05:44 <wWwwW> at my school we laern nothing about technology
09:07:01 <wWwwW> plz give me a clue i have no idea
09:07:09 <korvo> That's unfortunate. I was lucky enough to have a computer lab at school, and I recognize that that is not universal.
09:10:32 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143677&oldid=143676 * Froginstarch * (+92) /* Comparisons */
09:12:37 <wWwwW> an talk page you talked on
09:12:40 <wWwwW> an esolan g. you made
09:14:19 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143678&oldid=143677 * Froginstarch * (+116)
09:15:49 <korvo> wWwwW: Nah, you'll have to take notes like the rest of us. It's not like your wiki users are called "wWwwW".
09:16:59 <korvo> Also, I kind of don't want to help you learn how to stalk. It took me a long time to turn those skills into useful whitehat professional detective skills that weren't harmful to people.
09:19:55 <korvo> Like, what if I were one of the channel regulars who *don't* want folks using my real name? It happens.
09:20:24 <wWwwW> i think i found your github
09:20:46 <korvo> Then you've found everything. Good work!
09:21:11 <wWwwW> via your Rpython nested RAII thingy
09:22:17 <korvo> Yep. Folks often leak metadata through pastebins and commit info.
09:22:44 <wWwwW> wut does this mean:
09:22:47 <wWwwW> You have exceeded a secondary rate limit.
09:22:48 <wWwwW> Please wait a few minutes before you try again;
09:22:48 <wWwwW> in some cases this may take up to an hour.
09:23:30 <korvo> It means that you made too many requests too fast.
09:23:35 <korvo> GH shows this when you aren't logged in.
09:26:07 <korvo> A minor issue. Anyway, good luck on your hunt, but it's not on-topic.
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09:38:43 <wWwwW> is infinite pokemon turing complete
09:42:15 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143679&oldid=143678 * Froginstarch * (+150)
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09:53:36 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143680&oldid=143679 * Froginstarch * (+5) /* Replacing */
09:56:01 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143681&oldid=143680 * Froginstarch * (+61) /* Concatenation */
09:58:03 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143682&oldid=143681 * Froginstarch * (+16) /* Comparisons */
09:58:38 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143683&oldid=143682 * Froginstarch * (+8) /* Comparisons */
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10:08:01 <wib_jonas> korvo: I hope you're not one of the co-workers who put music on on loudspeaker in the office
10:08:19 <korvo> wib_jonas: I play the ukulele in public while whistling.
10:09:58 <wib_jonas> korvo: that... isn't really an answer because I know that many people play multiple kinds of music, but thanks
10:10:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ATProtogen * New user account
10:11:38 <korvo> wib_jonas: I do put music on in the office, but I work at home, so it's okay. I always wore headphones around other people.
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10:37:14 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Username display restrictions since when]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143684&oldid=143672 * None1 * (+453)
10:38:34 <esolangs> [[BinaryLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143685&oldid=114060 * None1 * (-6)
10:39:22 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143686&oldid=143604 * None1 * (-3) /* My Esolangs */
10:41:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143687&oldid=143656 * ATProtogen * (+223) Introduction submission
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11:01:28 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Username display restrictions since when]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143688&oldid=143684 * Iddi01 * (+589) Read the message carefully. c a r e f u l l y!
11:02:22 <esolangs> [[Template:Stub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143689&oldid=128521 * Froginstarch * (+27)
11:14:27 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Username display restrictions since when]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143690&oldid=143688 * Iddi01 * (+70) decrease the chance for misunderstanding even further
11:41:12 <esolangs> [[Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143691&oldid=143630 * PrySigneToFry * (+6) Replace some Tabs with spaces
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11:59:08 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again16]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143692 * PrySigneToFry * (+1861) Created page with "Translated ORK/None1 again8|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">If afzsmanj.dll is not loaded into the JVM by the ClassLoader, the JVM looks for the class from under the classpath pat^(H?m~ Hv D ?7 H((H?U~ HF D ? H((H?E~ H D ? H((H?% H? D ?
11:59:54 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143693&oldid=143595 * PrySigneToFry * (+79)
12:01:07 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143694&oldid=143590 * PrySigneToFry * (+132)
12:05:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143695&oldid=143576 * PrySigneToFry * (+674)
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14:37:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX/NEW MISSION]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143697 * PrySigneToFry * (+59) Created page with "It's completely useless, so you might as well stop doing it"
14:42:32 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/None1 again8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143698&oldid=143693 * None1 * (+0)
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14:48:21 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143699 * ATProtogen * (+187) Created page with "'''OvenScript''' is an esolang heavily based on [[Boolfuck]] but also a little bit inspired by the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker%27s_map baker's map] as well. [[Category:stubs]]"
14:49:56 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143700&oldid=143699 * ATProtogen * (+10)
14:50:21 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143701&oldid=143700 * ATProtogen * (-10)
15:03:37 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143702&oldid=143701 * ATProtogen * (+685) Adding commands
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15:44:19 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143703&oldid=143702 * ATProtogen * (-158) /* Commands */
15:50:16 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143704&oldid=143703 * ATProtogen * (+49)
16:02:27 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143705&oldid=143704 * ATProtogen * (+175) Made some sections
16:02:47 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143706&oldid=143705 * ATProtogen * (+1)
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17:19:10 <ais523> <b_jonas> "b) if you do not call a destructor, the code does not compile" => I don't see how that could work in a dynamically typed language. ← well the simplest approach is to require each function to contain an equal number of object constructions and destructions, although that probably doesn't work because you can't then use the ownership convention for getting the destructions timed correctly in all but the simplest cases
17:20:42 <ais523> ooh – but you could get the destructors to return the internal fields (thus leaving them to be destroyed manually) rather than destroying recursively, then the requirement would be that every constructed object either gets destructed or placed into a field of another object
17:21:00 <ais523> this would effectively have similar memory safety properties to reference counting, I think
17:21:31 <ais523> (in that you could leak a reference cycle but not otherwise)
17:21:46 <ais523> I am not sure it actually makes any sense as a language approach, but it's fun to explore the region of possibility
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17:52:08 <esolangs> [[Template:Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143707&oldid=143689 * Ais523 * (-27) Reverted edit by [[Special:Contributions/Froginstarch|Froginstarch]] ([[User talk:Froginstarch|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]]
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18:18:55 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143708&oldid=140881 * Froginstarch * (+76) hi :)
18:20:39 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143709&oldid=143706 * ATProtogen * (+729)
18:25:13 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143710&oldid=143709 * ATProtogen * (+23)
18:26:16 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143711&oldid=143683 * Froginstarch * (+276) added templates
18:26:27 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143712&oldid=143708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-76) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/143708|143708]] by [[Special:Contributions/Froginstarch|Froginstarch]] ([[User talk:Froginstarch|talk]])
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18:44:31 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Username display restrictions since when]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143713&oldid=143690 * Corbin * (+1728) I'm probably not helping, but they deserve a response.
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19:09:46 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143715&oldid=143626 * Ractangle * (-573) /* Tour */
19:10:00 <esolangs> [[7 bytes XD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143716&oldid=143488 * EvyLah * (-11) /* > */
19:14:47 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)/Compatibility methods]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143717 * Ractangle * (+370) Created page with "Snakel can't suport EVERY operating system due to some issues surounded either with hardware or by something else. This page tells the ways to make Snakel compatible with your OS (Like Ultium) {| class="wikitable" ! Method !! Disk syste
19:15:02 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)/Compatibility methods]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143718&oldid=143717 * Ractangle * (+8)
19:15:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Snakel (Ractangle)/Compatibility methods]] to [[Snakel/Compatibility methods]]
19:15:34 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143721&oldid=143715 * Ractangle * (-11) /* How to get Snakel */
19:16:04 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Compatibility methods]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143722&oldid=143719 * Ractangle * (-7)
19:22:24 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Compatibility methods]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143723&oldid=143722 * Ractangle * (+254)
19:23:15 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Compatibility methods]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143724&oldid=143723 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Ultium */
19:24:09 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Compatibility methods]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143725&oldid=143724 * Ractangle * (+23)
19:25:52 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143726&oldid=143721 * Ractangle * (+37) /* Truth-machine */
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21:14:55 <fizzie> That drive I mentioned that showed SMART values that suggested it might fail soon? It failed.
21:15:12 <fizzie> Next time I'll order the replacement right away instead of putting it off by a week or three.
21:16:36 <korvo> Unfortunate but it happens. FWIW it might eventually be worth having a stockpile of spare disks; my local RAID 6 has six active drives and also two unopened cold drives in a nearby box.
21:16:59 <int-e> . o O ( https://research.google.com/archive/disk_failures.pdf )
21:17:13 <korvo> This is expensive, so you might want to do it slowly. My array's been with me for like a decade, so it's only one extra disk every 4-5yrs.
21:17:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: though I'd like to mention a counter-anecdote: I got scared about the first hard disk in my previous computer because about three times during its life it stopped working completely until a power cycle. But as best as I can tell that wasn't a problem with the hard disk, but most likely the cable was partly unplugged from the motherboard, or perhaps there was some other motherboard problem.
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21:18:10 <fizzie> Yeah, I think the Backblaze article alluded that it's not easy to predict with certainty whether a drive's going to fail or not.
21:18:12 <korvo> Yikes, partially-unplugged disk cable, good Halloween story for spooky month.
21:18:46 <b_jonas> why is everyone trying to start that so early?
21:19:33 <int-e> b_jonas: I've been asking myself that for two and a half weeks now
21:20:01 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143728&oldid=143727 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Hello, world! */
21:20:09 <JAA> We had a very weird issue with I/O hangs and slow speeds in a server. Did a bunch of tests on the disks, CPU, and RAM. Turns out, the chassis had damaged the SATA cable.
21:20:20 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143729&oldid=143728 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Cat program */
21:20:37 <fizzie> In this case the error count (Current_Pending_Sector & Offline_Uncorrectable) seemed to have stabilized at 32 (the initial non-zero value), and in fact eventually dropped back down to zero (odd?), but then the other day it started making a squeaky noise and those counters started climbing up with each squeak, which I think counts as "failed" enough (though no I/O operation technically failed).
21:20:39 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143730&oldid=143729 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Hello, world! */
21:20:58 <int-e> b_jonas: It's probably consumerism (I imagine US shops are full of Halloween crap starting early October) that led to the "Spooktober" meme, and here we are.
21:21:16 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143731&oldid=143730 * Ractangle * (+28) /* Commands */
21:21:37 <int-e> b_jonas: which means that this is now a year old: https://old.reddit.com/r/shapezio/comments/17c8e8y/cursed_white_mixer/
21:23:14 <b_jonas> oh, very long ago I had a computer problem. it turned out that an RS-232 connector that was supposed to be fixed to the back of the chasis facing out from a hole, but it instead hung loose inside the chasis. Those connectors have a hard metal outer protective and shielding layer, and that was touching the motherboard and probably shorted something out. I think it didn't cause permanent damage, but I
21:23:20 <b_jonas> learned to be careful with connectors like that.
21:23:58 <b_jonas> These days there are fewer such connectors with so much exposed metal, but they still exist, such as the coax connectors for an external wifi antenna
21:24:15 <int-e> fizzie: yeah, squeaky noises can't be good
21:25:31 <b_jonas> int-e: hehe, nice sequencing
21:27:07 <b_jonas> also my two questions about libtom from a few days ago still stand
21:28:34 <int-e> (I do see the questions)
21:33:31 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143732&oldid=143731 * Ractangle * (+18) /* One Time Cat */
21:34:57 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143733&oldid=143732 * Ractangle * (+645) /* Examples */
21:35:40 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143734&oldid=143733 * Ractangle * (-2) /* The IT teachers response */
21:37:31 <int-e> ARG, who formats like this? `for (x = count; x --> 0u;)`
21:41:42 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Username display restrictions since when]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143735&oldid=143713 * Ais523 * (+2935) explanations
21:42:29 <earend1> since downcounting mostly faster
21:43:44 <JAA> Huh? I'm only aware of --x vs x--.
21:44:06 <int-e> b_jonas: anyway, yes, that conversion is quadratic, presumably to keep things simple in a world where limbs hold 7, 15, 28, 31, or 60 bits.
21:44:43 <JAA> Hmm, right
21:45:12 <earend1> 1timekek is only unbreakable crypto
21:45:45 <earend1> i learned possibly from one of your better sidekicks
21:46:15 <earend1> i bet u fired them. u goloopi kedicheck
21:46:50 <earend1> also commutativity for the first times means sth
21:47:00 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143736&oldid=143734 * Ractangle * (+45) /* Commands */
21:47:24 <fungot> earend1: i can only think in terms of the primitive fnord, not really. i speak mostly in a functional language.
21:47:43 <int-e> b_jonas: mpf_inv is implemented as mpf_invsqrt followed by squaring. wild?
21:49:07 <int-e> b_jonas: but I suspect optimizing for short mantissas isn't worthwhile
21:49:56 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143737&oldid=143736 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Interpreter */
21:50:10 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143738&oldid=143714 * ATProtogen * (+13)
21:54:45 <int-e> (It /feels/ wild but maybe the invsqrt thing is faster than the Newton iteration for f(x) = 1/x - a that computes 1/a?)
21:55:46 <int-e> > let f a b = iterate (\x -> 2*x - a*x^2) b in f 5 0.25
21:55:47 <lambdabot> [0.25,0.1875,0.19921875,0.1999969482421875,0.19999999995343387,0.2,0.1999999...
22:01:16 <int-e> (it's funny to me that this Newton iteration ends up not having any divisions)
22:01:18 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143739&oldid=143737 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Interpreter */
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22:13:44 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143740&oldid=143739 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Commands */
22:17:21 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143741&oldid=143740 * Ractangle * (+28) /* Interpreter */
22:18:17 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143742&oldid=143741 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Interpreter */
22:19:18 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143743&oldid=143742 * Ractangle * (-8) /* Interpreter */
22:29:09 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think the list "7, 15, 28, 31, 60" is quite right, not that it matters here
22:31:54 <b_jonas> "invsqrt thing is faster" => that's kind of like how some ways of computing pi using the Taylor series of arctangent around 0 evaluate arctangent on very small angles because then the Taylor series converges faster
22:32:00 <b_jonas> http://www.quadibloc.com/math/circint.htm has the details
22:32:16 <b_jonas> I was recently looking at it for a somewhat different reason:
22:35:41 <b_jonas> I have written a few short simple programs where I compute pi as 12*atan(2-sqrt(3)), where I compute atan with its taylor series. this does work, and if you compare it with the simpler arctangent formulas like 12*atan(1/4) + 4*atan(1/20) + 4*atan(1/1985) it's not even that bad in how quickly it converges,
22:35:47 <int-e> I just don't see why it would be faster. Oh well. TBH none of this looks super optimized.
22:36:15 <int-e> (not talking about atan series)
22:36:32 <b_jonas> however, I want to write a program or two to compute pi as an example program to demonstrate an esolang or some other esoteric technique, and the arctangent formulas of the latter sort are much better there because they're really easy to implement in small amount of code:
22:37:24 <b_jonas> for those latter kinds you don't even need to implement full bignum multiplication, you only need bignum addition and multiplying and dividing by small numbers
22:37:31 <int-e> (when doing Newton iterations as in invsqrt, you can start with lower precision intermediate results and double the digits on every iteration, to save time)
22:38:07 <b_jonas> whereas for the formula with sqrt you do need to implement bignum division to compute the square root, so it results in a more complicated program
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22:39:33 <b_jonas> int-e: the point is that the original libtommath isn't very optimized, instead it's education, whereas there's a less developped later library called tomsfastmath that is much more optimized and implements the same interface as libtommath (though it's of course still less optimized then GMP/MPFI)
22:40:47 <b_jonas> but both my questions still seem to apply to tomsfastmath too
22:42:14 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143744&oldid=143743 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Interpreter */
22:42:23 <b_jonas> and the quadratic time for bn_mp_to_unsigned_bin upsets me even in a less optimized library, since that's the main interface to export a bignum from libtom's internal format, so now you have bignums but no easy way to export their contents from the library's internal representation
22:44:20 <int-e> understandable. the opposite conversion is also quadratic
22:46:43 <b_jonas> obviously I know that the principled solution is to just use MPFI instead
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23:03:12 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143745&oldid=143738 * ATProtogen * (+0)
23:07:30 <esolangs> [[BittyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143746&oldid=126090 * None1 * (+30) A subset of bf
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23:51:59 <zzo38> The OpenSSL documentation is confusing. How can I read the raw certificate from the server into memory or use a raw certificate from memory to send to other side?
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02:13:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainyay]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143747 * PhiPhiPHIpHi * (+84) Created page with "THIS ESOLANG IS LIKE... SUPER SKIBIDI AND SIGMA(SORRY) - Phoenix Irwin(PhiPhiPHipHi)"
02:17:48 <esolangs> [[Brainyay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143748&oldid=143578 * PhiPhiPHIpHi * (+22)
02:19:33 <esolangs> [[Brainyay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143749&oldid=143748 * PhiPhiPHIpHi * (+157)
02:20:30 <esolangs> [[Brainyay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143750&oldid=143749 * PhiPhiPHIpHi * (+42)
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06:29:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:SS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143751&oldid=143264 * Xff * (+148) /* Hmmm */
06:41:24 <esolangs> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143752&oldid=136340 * Xff * (+328) /* Commands */
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06:42:51 <PCWWWWW> if you see this ais523 plz what do you think of my theory of burn(WIP): https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Yayimhere/Sandbox
06:44:05 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143753&oldid=138539 * Xff * (-1) /* Burn */
06:45:41 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143754&oldid=143753 * Xff * (-84) /* Burn */
06:54:28 <PCWWWWW> anyone else can comment as well ig
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06:58:44 <esolangs> [[LogicF---]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143755&oldid=96933 * Xff * (+24) /* Quine (ignoring the [ and ] and assuming the user inputs 0) */ its not rly a quine
07:12:36 <esolangs> [[0+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143756 * Xff * (+436) Created page with "'''0+'''(pronounced 0 plus) is an esolang made up of only plusses and zero's. it was created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. theres a array named acc and a function named f == commands == 0 = 0 ''x''+ = x+1 0''x'' = do x before everything else ''x''+''y'' = x-y ''x''++''y'' = while x
07:13:44 <esolangs> [[0+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143757&oldid=143756 * Xff * (+38) /* commands */
07:19:05 <esolangs> [[0+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143758&oldid=143757 * Xff * (+153)
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07:38:48 <esolangs> [[Snakel (DifferentDance8)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143759&oldid=143157 * DifferentDance8 * (-912) now redundant as the actual snakel has instructions
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10:40:39 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143760&oldid=143745 * ATProtogen * (+14)
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10:45:46 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143761&oldid=143153 * Ractangle * (-118)
10:46:52 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143762&oldid=143726 * Ractangle * (-3567) delete it now
10:47:11 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143763&oldid=143761 * Ractangle * (+3419)
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10:55:24 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143764&oldid=143744 * Ractangle * (+141) /* Commands */
10:55:58 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143765&oldid=143764 * Ractangle * (+116) /* Interpreter */
11:03:42 <esolangs> [[User:Froginstarch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143766&oldid=127112 * Froginstarch * (+11)
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11:24:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143767&oldid=143459 * PrySigneToFry * (+827) /* Make Translated ORK/PSTF Again16 it scarier ! */ new section
11:25:51 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143768&oldid=143591 * PrySigneToFry * (+37)
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11:42:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143769&oldid=143695 * PrySigneToFry * (+1109) /* Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh */ new section
11:48:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143770&oldid=143769 * Ractangle * (+208) /* Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh */
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14:16:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143771&oldid=143770 * None1 * (+291) /* Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh */
14:22:04 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Operators]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143772&oldid=142699 * PrySigneToFry * (-1)
14:35:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143773&oldid=143771 * None1 * (+358) /* */
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17:27:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JunebugEsolanging * New user account
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17:31:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143774&oldid=143687 * JunebugEsolanging * (+195) /* Introductions */
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19:29:30 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143775&oldid=143760 * ATProtogen * (+5)
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19:46:43 <esolangs> [[Snakel (Ractangle)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143776&oldid=143762 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) Redirect
19:48:39 <esolangs> [[0+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143777&oldid=143758 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) Categories
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19:53:11 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143778&oldid=143775 * ATProtogen * (-17)
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20:06:14 <esolangs> [[Snakel (DifferentDance8)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143779&oldid=143759 * Ractangle * (+20) Redirected page to [[Snakel]]
20:17:50 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143780&oldid=143765 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Interpreter */
20:18:04 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143781&oldid=143780 * Ractangle * (+4) /* The IT teachers response */
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21:14:25 <supercode> I know one way one can prove that an esolang is TC is by writing a BF interpreter in it
21:14:34 <supercode> but I want to know how to prove that BF is turing complete?
21:14:40 <supercode> is there a published proof of it somewhere?
21:17:16 <int-e> by the magic of $GOOGLE: http://www.brainfuck.org/utm.b
21:17:46 <int-e> where GOOGLE=DuckDuckGo ;-)
21:19:36 <int-e> I'm sure that there are more full TC-ness proofs for Brainfuck (with either unbounded tape or unbounded cells).
21:21:21 <zzo38> Corrado Bohm had invented P'' in 1964 and had proven P'' to be Turing-complete. P'' is like a subset of brainfuck.
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21:41:04 <korvo> supercode: Interestingly, int-e's link only shows that there's an interpreter for a certain class of tag systems. I've recently done a literature review (https://bbgauge.info/brainfuck.html) and I didn't find an interpreter of Turing's machines.
21:41:33 <korvo> So I suppose that the natural next question is: what counts as TC for you?
21:46:35 <int-e> korvo: yeah I did notice that it uses tag systems
21:47:13 <korvo> int-e: It got me thinking about a BLC interpreter. The data structures shouldn't be too hard, but I don't think I can make it efficient.
21:47:17 <int-e> not a huge deal to me... but I'm used to this kind of thing (it's reductions all the way down)
21:48:26 <korvo> Oh, for sure, I count it as TC too.
21:56:02 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143782&oldid=143781 * Ractangle * (+34) /* Commands */
21:57:44 <int-e> korvo: Hmm, maybe start with BCL? That'll be annoying enough I think :P
21:59:37 <korvo> int-e: Oh, same thing to me; I'm a compiler engineer, so all combinators look like graph reduction~ The annoying part will be encoding trees as a dynamically-growing flattened structure; I hate pointer arithmetic.
22:00:33 <int-e> Funny, I forgot how BCL is encoded. 00=k 01=s 1=`
22:09:40 <int-e> korvo: you can do string rewriting which is probably less annoying than pointers
22:09:58 <int-e> but still no fun... so much shifting around on the tape
22:11:02 <int-e> I guess pointers are kind of okay if you have unbounded cells
22:15:44 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143783&oldid=141275 * Ractangle * (-11)
22:20:04 <esolangs> [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143784&oldid=88529 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+35) /* Interpreters */
22:20:19 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143785&oldid=139404 * Ractangle * (-414) /* 99 bottles of beer */
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22:28:26 <esolangs> [[CLFCE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143786&oldid=139813 * Ractangle * (+110) /* Deadfish implementation */
22:30:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang Quality Rating System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143787&oldid=142337 * Ractangle * (+18) /* Base Score */
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22:41:48 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143788&oldid=143243 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+22) /* Quine */
22:44:29 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143789&oldid=143788 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+41) /* How to cheat */
22:44:47 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143790&oldid=143789 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* How to cheat */
23:35:47 <int-e> korvo: I swear I've done almost exactly this before, but one can implement reducing a BCL string to normal form with a string rewriting system (semi-Thue system) like this: https://paste.debian.net/1332700/ (untested, but it should at least be mostly correct), so that would be my idea for implementing that in Brainfuck. It'll *still* be tedious but at least now all the required shifts have a...
23:37:02 <int-e> hmm "for evaluating L" is supposed to be "for evaluating S"
23:37:06 <esolangs> [[0 Bits, 0 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143791&oldid=141068 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+71) /* 5 */
23:37:18 <esolangs> [[0 Bits, 0 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143792&oldid=143791 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+7) /* Befunge */
23:38:05 <korvo> int-e: Nice! Yeah, code is a lot easier to write the second or third time.
23:40:07 <int-e> (I believe the last time this was directly for unlambda-like [`sk]* and maybe with left-hand sides restricted to 1 or 2 characters in length? And oerjan helped optimize it a bit... But I couldn't find it.)
23:40:21 <esolangs> [[Overload]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143793 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1279) Created page with "'''Overload''' is an [[esolang]] made by [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] that is inspired by [[Underload]] and [[Emmental]]. In Overload, you can redefine the instr
23:40:49 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143794&oldid=143793 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+26)
23:41:05 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143795&oldid=143794 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1)
23:42:22 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143796&oldid=143795 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+85)
23:42:31 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143797&oldid=143796 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1) /* Conditionals */
23:42:42 <int-e> I guess I'll burden fizzie's server a bit and download IRC logs.
23:43:56 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143798&oldid=143797 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1) /* Categories = */
23:45:14 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143799&oldid=143798 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+129) /* Truth-machine */
23:45:42 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143800&oldid=143799 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+33) /* Programs */
23:48:08 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143801&oldid=143800 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+188)
23:49:04 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143802&oldid=143801 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+4) /* Cat program (halts) */
23:50:11 <int-e> (I probably didn't make a blip amongst all the AI crawlers :P)
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23:59:15 <int-e> AHA! https://paste.debian.net/1332702/ was the previous thing.
23:59:48 <fizzie> int-e: https://zem.fi/tmp/blip.png
00:00:07 <int-e> oh that *is* visible.
00:00:19 <fizzie> Just because nobody was doing anything to the logs at the time.
00:00:53 <int-e> anyway, this was me catching up all the way back to the freenode debacle
00:01:14 <fizzie> (The logs are also a lot cheaper to serve than the wiki is, in terms of CPU.)
00:02:43 <int-e> korvo: see the paste link above for something closely related *and* tested :)
00:04:14 <int-e> a queue automaton might actually be easier for brainfuck... you can consume characters from the front of a string and append new ones at the end, so there's way less shifting. but this system also has way more rules
00:08:05 <int-e> fizzie: it would've been less visible if I had gone for the monthly logs. but I like `grep` actually spitting out dates from the file names :)
00:11:07 <int-e> too bad the old paste links no longer work, like https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2018-12-28.html#lVb (this may be my fault; I have this habit of selecting 90d for expiration with few exceptions)
00:37:10 <shachaf> int-e: Did you try Bee Magic?
00:42:47 <korvo> int-e: Oh wow. Thanks.
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01:38:01 <int-e> shachaf: Hmm, I had not tried it. Cute.
01:38:55 <int-e> (And no, I have not finished it.)
01:39:06 <int-e> (In case it came across that way.)
02:10:19 <esolangs> [[0 Bits, 0 Bytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143803&oldid=143792 * PkmnQ * (+16) In some sense they can be considered the same language?
02:18:52 <int-e> shachaf: oh noes, I finished it once and...
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02:48:53 <korvo> Ooh, that is cute.
04:11:55 <esolangs> [[Replay]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143804 * AndrewBayly * (+20) Created page with "This page is a stub."
04:17:55 <esolangs> [[Replay]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143805&oldid=143804 * AndrewBayly * (+1941) Initial Description
04:19:41 <esolangs> [[Replay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143806&oldid=143805 * AndrewBayly * (+80) indenting code
04:21:56 <esolangs> [[Replay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143807&oldid=143806 * AndrewBayly * (+11) re-formatting
04:23:11 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143808&oldid=143574 * AndrewBayly * (+136) added Replay
04:24:40 <esolangs> [[Replay]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143809&oldid=143807 * AndrewBayly * (+24) added category "Languages"
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05:01:55 <Sgeo> I'm hooked on Mancala (Kalah)
05:57:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143810&oldid=143092 * PrySigneToFry * (+134) /* */ new section
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06:07:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143811&oldid=134607 * PrySigneToFry * (+612) /* Some pseudo code */
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06:11:17 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143812&oldid=143367 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
06:14:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143813&oldid=143599 * PrySigneToFry * (+4) Fixed header file because the megac++.h is not built-in.
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06:57:35 <esolangs> [[Execode/Original implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143814&oldid=142342 * Iddi01 * (+5377) Add interpreter for [[Exechars]]
06:57:40 <esolangs> [[Exechars]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143815 * Iddi01 * (+8354) *article modified from [[Execode]]*
07:06:22 <esolangs> [[Exechars]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143816&oldid=143815 * Iddi01 * (+1) As expected, i have forgotten something and need to fix it
07:34:36 <esolangs> [[User:Iddi01]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143817&oldid=143388 * Iddi01 * (+422) Add [[Exechars]], and attempt to make others feel good about my esolangs
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07:38:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Basilisk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143818&oldid=143813 * PrySigneToFry * (+766)
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07:42:14 <esolangs> [[Execode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143819&oldid=143598 * Iddi01 * (+31) /* See also */ Add [[Exechars]]
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07:57:21 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143820&oldid=142647 * Iddi01 * (+393) ...but mostly to fix something weird
08:09:39 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143821&oldid=142450 * Iddi01 * (+314)
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11:09:18 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143822&oldid=143778 * ATProtogen * (+151)
11:15:30 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143823&oldid=143822 * ATProtogen * (+295)
11:16:12 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143824&oldid=143823 * ATProtogen * (+0)
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11:40:42 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143825&oldid=143824 * ATProtogen * (+4)
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11:49:25 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143826&oldid=143825 * ATProtogen * (+379)
11:55:08 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143827&oldid=143826 * ATProtogen * (+65)
11:57:48 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143828&oldid=143827 * ATProtogen * (+15)
12:20:48 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143829&oldid=143828 * ATProtogen * (+0)
12:24:58 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143830&oldid=143278 * None1 * (-2) /* External Resources */ I confirmed that the vercel page works!
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13:05:53 <ais523> there's an Underload interpreter in BF, I haven't checked to see if it potentially needs bignums for big programs, but if it doesn't that should prove TCness (because Underload was proven TC starting from SK combinator calculus, rather than from BF)
13:07:07 <wWwwW> plz what do you think of my theory of burn(WIP): https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Yayimhere/Sandbox (sorry for asking but you didnt seem to see it)
13:07:26 <ais523> it doesn't fit the information that I already released about the language
13:08:46 <wWwwW> it dont? wait wut. what information
13:09:00 <ais523> see the list at the bottom of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Burn
13:10:24 <wWwwW> i dont see the problem
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13:10:58 <ais523> well, your example seems to be based on single digits rather htan pairs
13:11:39 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143831&oldid=143754 * Yayimhere * (-554) /* Burn */
13:12:26 <ais523> "It was possible for the difference in one colour channel to affect what happened in the other colour channel." is the main hint that disallows that
13:16:34 <b_jonas> there's also multiple compilers to brainfuck
13:17:01 <esolangs> [[PokBattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143832&oldid=134531 * PrySigneToFry * (+469) Simple example added
13:17:30 <esolangs> [[PokBattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143833&oldid=143832 * PrySigneToFry * (+3)
13:18:03 <b_jonas> and there's a lot written about brainfuck constructions on the internet,
13:18:33 <esolangs> [[PokBattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143834&oldid=143833 * PrySigneToFry * (+8)
13:19:41 <b_jonas> most importantly you can use a periodic pattern of the tape cells where you alternate cells from multiple tapes in a cycle, and keep track of the head position modulo the number of channels everywhere in the program. you only get one head, but you can burn full channels for nothing but a single 1 among all 0s to mark a position of an extra head to simulate an extra tape.
13:20:36 <b_jonas> it's kind of ugly and I certainly wouldn't want to work with brainfuck, but people have actually written multiple working compilers to it
13:28:43 <ais523> I tried to get gcc to generate brainfuck, once
13:28:55 <ais523> I was using a period-6 periodic pattern
13:29:24 <ais523> I didn't fully succeed, I managed something interesting but don't think I got as far as any working programs
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14:04:28 <esolangs> [[PythOwO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143835&oldid=143559 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+592)
14:30:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143836&oldid=143767 * PrySigneToFry * (+664) /* Translated ! */ new section
14:36:38 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143837&oldid=143768 * PrySigneToFry * (+183)
14:37:23 <esolangs> [[PIX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143838&oldid=140797 * RainbowDash * (+30) I am pretty sure this is a Markup Language
14:38:08 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143839&oldid=143837 * PrySigneToFry * (+98)
14:38:38 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143840&oldid=143829 * ATProtogen * (+16)
14:42:59 <int-e> shachaf: I need one more star... it looks impossible.
14:43:10 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143841&oldid=143839 * PrySigneToFry * (+70)
14:58:09 <esolangs> [[GlyphCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143842 * CodePhantom * (+1454) Created page with "= GlyphCode = == Overview == GlyphCode is an esoteric programming language that uses an array of unique glyphs to perform operations. The complexity of the glyphs makes deciphering the code a challenge, ensuring a mind-bending coding experience. == Basic Command
15:10:18 <esolangs> [[GimmickLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143843 * CodePhantom * (+1009) Created page with "= GimmickLang = == Overview == GimmickLang is an esoteric programming language where keywords double as variables, and commands are enclosed in curly braces `{}`. Additionally, loops have a 50% chance of sending the program back to the start, making it unpredic
15:11:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[OCBscriptOCBCCBCCB]] to [[PL]]
15:21:24 <esolangs> [[PL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143846&oldid=143844 * Ractangle * (-1057)
15:22:11 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143847&oldid=143375 * Ractangle * (-62) /* Esolangs */
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15:25:53 <int-e> shachaf: orrf pna'g ernq; orrf pna'g syvc fjvguprf... jung tbbq ner gurl?
15:26:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143848&oldid=143522 * Ractangle * (-36) /* Non-alphabetic */
15:26:59 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143849&oldid=143821 * Ractangle * (-299) /* (script()) */
15:27:55 <int-e> (it's a spoiler if you haven't found 10 spells (counting the cancel one from the trophy room))
15:35:20 <int-e> And that's still not the end of it.
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15:54:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Overload]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143850 * B jonas * (+197) Created page with "Not to be confused with [https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-09.html#lF3c the Overload language that is Underload's precursor]. ~~~~"
15:57:06 <b_jonas> Ken Iverson died twenty years ago today. We have to thank him for a prompt introduction of computers in education to high school level. He made an interpreter that allowed rapid experiments, so people could get quicker feedback on a terminal than the then typical slower cycle of compiling and running a Fortran program. In some way he contributed to the addictiveness and instant gratification of the
15:57:58 <b_jonas> Ken Iverson (1920–2004) rest in peace, we will always remember
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17:17:11 <esolangs> [[PL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143851&oldid=143846 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Categories
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18:17:43 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143852 * PkmnQ * (+1005) Created page with "{{WIP}} This is an exploration of what would change if [[Underload]] had its <code>~</code> command was replaced with a different command, which will be represented with <code>-</code>. == Command == ; <TT>-</TT> <nowiki>:</nowiki> (''x'')
18:31:55 <esolangs> [[PL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143853&oldid=143851 * Ractangle * (+64) /* Examples */
18:53:34 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143854&oldid=143802 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+55) /* Instructions */
18:54:27 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143855&oldid=143852 * PkmnQ * (+557)
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19:36:41 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143856&oldid=143840 * ATProtogen * (+310)
19:37:49 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143857&oldid=143856 * ATProtogen * (+4)
20:16:23 <esolangs> [[PL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143858&oldid=143853 * Ractangle * (-8)
20:17:34 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143859&oldid=143763 * Ractangle * (-47)
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20:24:24 <esolangs> [[Overload/Turing-completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143860 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+984) Created page with "This is a proof that [[Overload]] is [[Turing complete]] by ~~~~. This works by showing that a [[Turing complete]] language can be compiled to Overload. == The Turing-complete languag
20:24:40 <esolangs> [[Overload/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143861&oldid=143860 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-186)
20:24:53 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143862&oldid=142881 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+14)
20:25:23 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143863&oldid=143854 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+74) /* Categories */
20:25:31 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143864&oldid=143863 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Categories */
20:27:11 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143865&oldid=143864 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* Cat program (halts) */
20:27:25 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143866&oldid=143865 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+13) /* Instructions */
20:29:30 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143867&oldid=143866 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+221)
20:34:25 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143868&oldid=143867 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+405) /* Minimization */
20:35:06 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143869&oldid=143868 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+28) /* Categories */
20:51:21 <shachaf> int-e: Hmm, they seem very useful to me!
20:51:40 <shachaf> One more star in what context?
20:52:06 <int-e> shachaf: your puzzle game
20:52:12 <int-e> it turns out there are more though
20:52:25 <int-e> "your" - bee magic
20:56:08 <int-e> And no, I haven't gotten *that* star yet either.
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21:15:14 <salpynx> I agree with zzo38's comment re. Corrado Bohm's P'' being the most formal TC proof for bf. The proof pre-dates bf by decades, and the correspondence was noticed well after bf, and I don't know how formally or when, but it is a trivial subset and feels like an obvious free step to reuse the formal proof.
21:17:23 <salpynx> I haven't looked recently, but I couldn't find a free, easy to access archive copy of Bohm's original journal paper online. I considered getting a photocopy from a University library with physical copies, but I don't have uni connections currently, so it would have been a bit of an effort (and the uni is not even in my city)
21:17:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[PL]] to [[MarkupL]]
21:17:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:PL/MIX]] to [[Talk:MarkupL/MIX]]
21:18:56 <salpynx> I'm still looking for a copy of Böhm, C.: "On a family of Turing machines and the related programming language", ICC Bull. 3, 185-194, July 1964. , just to link from the Wikipedia article
21:25:02 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143874&oldid=143870 * Ractangle * (+34)
21:25:18 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143875&oldid=143874 * Ractangle * (-70) /* Syntax */
21:27:34 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143876&oldid=143875 * Ractangle * (-62) /* Hello, world */
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21:32:49 <korvo> salpynx: I believe I've found that one in a shadow library, if you're content to read it and verify WP's claims. I don't have notes to share though, sorry.
21:34:03 <b_jonas> right, although you may still want to prove that Brainfuck is also complete in how it can use bytewise interactive input and output.
21:37:02 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143877&oldid=143876 * Ractangle * (+158) /* Syntax */
21:37:34 <salpynx> b_jonas: not sure I follow the extra completeness from IO?
21:39:38 <b_jonas> salpynx: I mean that's a stronger property than just Turing-completeness
21:39:47 <korvo> You need to be able to arbitrarily "beep" the machine by putting it into a designated state. The phrasing on the wiki is in terms of arbitrary effects.
21:40:01 <salpynx> korvo: thanks, I may have found the content somewhere too, but is it a transcription or something? I remember thinking it would still be valuable to have a cleanly obtained copy for proper attribution and linking
21:41:37 <korvo> salpynx: I don't think it's freely available anywhere, no. The original journal hasn't been made open-access, IIUC. When we have access to articles from the 60s, it's usually because they get shared by teachers a lot, and this article doesn't get used (much?) in courses.
21:42:54 <korvo> b_jonas: So, I think we have to fix a convention, but it should be straightforward to show that right-unbounded BF can do arbitrary I/O. We'd reserve the first four cells to use as registers for holding the next character in and out, as well as flags.
21:43:31 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143878&oldid=143869 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-3) /* Minimization */
21:43:47 <korvo> This was how that one BF metainterpreter worked, IIRC: https://github.com/bf-enterprise-solutions/meta.bf
21:45:12 <korvo> Oh, no, that metainterp passes through I/O. So I must be thinking of something else.
21:46:13 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143879&oldid=143877 * Ractangle * (+149) /* MarkupL add-ons */
21:46:30 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143880&oldid=143879 * Ractangle * (+1) /* MarkupL add-ons */
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21:48:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:MarkupL/MIX]] to [[Talk:PL/MIX]] over redirect
21:48:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[Talk:PL/MIX]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Talk:MarkupL/MIX]]"
21:51:33 <salpynx> "phrasing on the wiki is in terms of arbitrary effects" maybe i'm missing some context on what you're trying to prove, but though IO was totally separate from computational ability?
21:51:43 <salpynx> if the result is on the tape, it has been computed. IO could be done with memory mapping, or adding command conventions, or wiring a beeper, but they are all equivalent in terms of computation.
21:56:11 <b_jonas> korvo: what? no, brainfuck has IO built in, using the . and , commands
21:56:19 <korvo> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Arbitrary_effect_at_an_arbitrary_point
21:56:54 <korvo> b_jonas: Sure. I was thinking of performing arbitrary I/O effects, not just having the commands available.
21:57:21 <salpynx> isn't it like asking 'can it play Doom'? The answer is yes, but 'play' isn't formally defined, so you could argue about whether that really counts as 'play' subjectively?
21:57:29 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143883&oldid=143878 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+53)
22:02:14 <salpynx> korvo: i get "Arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point" is required for TCness, but don't see the IO implication? Also, I had to read the last para twice to make sure it wasn't implying some languages can be TC _without_ allowing AEAAP. It's still required, it just doesn't have to be direct or obvious.
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22:09:03 <korvo> salpynx: I/O actions inside the machine correspond to externally-visible states outside the machine.
22:10:22 <korvo> And so if there's some arbitrary barrier preventing the machine from entering some externally-visible state, then that barrier likely prevents the machine from executing the corresponding I/O action. But if there's a legal program expressing that action, then we've found an incompleteness.
22:11:00 <salpynx> as someone who likes writing truth machines for langs with no IO, i though IO was fundamentally a hardware or interpreter implementation detail-- sugar to make things a bit easier, but not required. Conceptually I can look at anything in the system, I don't see why STDOUT is especially priviledged.
22:11:15 <korvo> Because BF has the I/O actions, we also expect that BF is universal over sequences of I/O actions.
22:11:59 <korvo> In languages like E or Monte, one *cannot* look at any part of the system, even with a debugger. You'd need an OS-level debugger or some other abstraction-violator.
22:12:23 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143884&oldid=143857 * ATProtogen * (+88)
22:12:29 <korvo> So I'm used to thinking in terms of observable actions. It also enables us to talk about algorithms vs functions vs programs, which is nice.
22:12:37 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143885&oldid=143884 * ATProtogen * (+0)
22:12:59 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143886&oldid=143885 * ATProtogen * (+1)
22:14:26 <korvo> salpynx: To make this concrete and relevant, see [[Algebraic Brainfuck]]. The monoid I documented there does *not* have I/O, and in fact any I/O will trivialize the theory (IOW prevents us from showing that one program behaves like another).
22:14:53 <korvo> ...Oh, I should say that there.
22:17:52 <salpynx> "Because BF has the I/O actions, we also expect that BF is universal over sequences of I/O actions." ok, I think I understand this is a question... I had assumed that this is necessarily true for all TC langauges that allow arbitrary IO, and it'd have to be true for all TC languages as part of TCness (i,e, not specific to bf). You'd have to add odd restrictions to break it. .. but maybe this does need a proof?
22:20:19 <korvo> Yeah, you've got the idea. It's a straightforward proof to imagine: for each computable sequence of I/O actions, where the program can run a computable function to adapt to each input datum, the corresponding program interleaves I/O action literals with compiled code for those functions.
22:20:56 <korvo> And general recursion is allowed because I/O actions can occur inside those compiled functions.
22:23:15 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143887&oldid=143883 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+152) /* Minimization */
22:23:22 <esolangs> [[Overload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143888&oldid=143887 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Examples */
22:24:08 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143889&oldid=142903 * Corbin * (+340) /* As a Monoid */ Note that I/O trivializes the theory. Sad but typical.
22:29:08 <salpynx> i'm skipping a lot of stages in my thoughts here, but "Arb. effect at an arb. point" is using 'effect' to mean an effect 'relevant to computation'. IO adds effects not directly relevant to computation, but you can have them at the same arbitrary points easily... now I'm thinking the only hard part is infinite input --it's seems that might not necessarily be hardcodable and could represent a difference
22:30:11 <korvo> Well, it's also talking about states of an FSM, and the way we represent I/O in an FSM is with states that are reading or writing.
22:30:34 <korvo> More abstractly, we talk about the "beep", which doesn't have to literally make an audio beep but should be an observable state.
22:30:55 <korvo> And the main application is Beeping Busy Beaver: https://www.sligocki.com/2021/03/06/beeping-busy-beaver/
22:31:41 <salpynx> ... i'll read the curernt Algebraic Brainfuck for more context. Infinite input seems like that's the only part of IO that seems like it might make a meaning ful difference, and even then i can conceive of infinte hardcoded input, it's that maybe you'd never be able begin the computation
22:33:35 <salpynx> FSMs read / write states can just be inserted or removed though? They are attached to computational states, that's a good way of conceptualising what I'm talking about (i think?)
22:37:04 <salpynx> for 'beep's being an observable state, i have used monitoring the state of an arbitrary waterclock in TWFM as a conceptual beep for IO, and for BCT i worked out a pattern matching output if any part of the data string matched a pattern, the portion is to be interpreted as output, so i think i have practically implemented pushing the def.n of 'beep' techinques :)
22:38:23 <korvo> Sure. I don't want to get bogged down in definitions as long as you've got the right idea. Consider video-game emulators; it'd be rather weird if an emulator *couldn't* reproduce an arbitrary code-execution (ACE) action, right?
22:39:15 <korvo> We want the emulator to be universal over all of the original observable states of the emulated machine, including the states that aren't typically encountered in normal usage. States that are only reached by highly-incompressible inputs.
22:39:59 <korvo> ...Ignore that last bit, unless you wanna talk probabalistically, I guess.
22:41:26 <salpynx> ooh, 'beeping busy beaver' I'd heard that mentioned a while back and was going to dig into what that meant. i'll do some reading, thx.
22:42:12 <korvo> TC-ness is really just kind of like what happens as our emulated machine goes to infinite time and space. Our emulator has to go infinite, too, and it has to do so in a faithful fashion.
22:43:11 <korvo> ("Faithful" in the category-theoretic sense: if two observable states of the emulator are distinct, then observations of the original machine will distinguish them too.)
22:44:45 <salpynx> i guess my default take is that 'beeps' are irrelevant (for computation), primarily because the def.n of beep is so wide, but i'm also quite interested in exploring / justifying that.
22:46:07 <salpynx> heh, I guess I think beeps are 'free'
22:52:13 <korvo> Well, as long as they're not in control flow, yeah, beeps don't interrupt composition. But looping over a beep, especially conditionally beeping in a big loop, should evoke Rice's theorem.
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23:22:54 <salpynx> korvo: i'm still reading, but it did surprise me that BBB(4) > BB(4) (considerably greater!), and it helps illustrate the difference. I'm still working through what it means. However this statement from SA "Clearly BBB(n) ≥ BB(n) for all n, since we could designate the state from which M halts as its beep state. " seems wrong to me -- beeping on the halt state gives you 1 beep? What am I missing here?
23:27:20 <salpynx> I accept that BBB(4) is greater than BB(4), because i've seen an example (well, trust the statement that one exists), but disagree with the 'clearly', and the stated reason seems trivially false.
23:35:07 <korvo> salpynx: BBB() gives the index of the last beep, not the number of beeps, in this framing.
23:39:03 <shachaf> int-e: Huh, do you mean trophy or something? I think I'm confused.
23:40:03 <salpynx> korvo: aha! that fixes it, i'll reprocess@
23:41:36 <int-e> shachaf: each trophy needs four stars and I got three with what I thought at the time was the last trophy
23:42:21 <int-e> well, with the corresponding combination of spells
23:42:23 <shachaf> Oh, got it, I thought you were saying there were more stars other than those.
23:42:52 <shachaf> I guess you flipped the switch.
23:43:37 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't remember what trophies I did and didn't do, because some of them were on another computer and some were with a friend on their computer.
23:44:38 <shachaf> I think we didn't finish goat+flip+flower. We made a bunch of progress on it but it was tricky.
23:46:14 <int-e> my cheat sheet looks like this; I haven't played since discovering the second animal. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bee-magic.png
23:46:25 <int-e> (spoilers obviously)
23:47:17 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I shouldn't have said a spoiler word.
23:48:29 <int-e> (blue centers mark torphys that are done
23:53:02 <int-e> I started assembling that map before I found the maphack... that was a waste of time :P
23:53:51 <b_jonas> where's this bee magic? apparently more than one of you are playing it and discussing it here, so I should add it to https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Games_that_the_esolangs_community_plays
23:54:34 <int-e> https://epicpikaguy.itch.io/bee-magic
23:54:49 <int-e> windows version works in wine
23:55:35 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143890&oldid=141424 * B jonas * (+52) /* Games that the esolangs community plays */ Bee magic
23:56:01 <zzo38> I could not install Wine in my computer due to package manager conflicts. I don't know if some other people have similar problem.
23:56:01 <b_jonas> added it to the link, thanks
23:56:09 <zzo38> Do they have the DOS version?
23:57:13 <int-e> it works in a browser but my browser would forget all progress
23:57:26 <int-e> and no, not in lynx
23:58:03 <zzo38> If the rules can be written out properly then it would also be possible to make a separate implementation. I made a article also on esolang wiki with some of the games but I also wrote the rules of some of these games. (In some cases they are more complicated than I could mention there directly, such as Pokemon, and Magic: the Gathering.)
23:58:06 <int-e> probably not mosaic either but who knows, maybe they've added WebGL support in the meantime ;-)
00:06:07 <zzo38> I made a list of game rules in http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Game_rules but does not include all of the games, yet.
00:13:59 <wryl> So I've been experimenting with an augmentation to FRACTRAN/Bag's rules.
00:15:31 <salpynx> korvo: it seems that BBB(n) winners must be non-terminating, and have no halt state (BBB(4) winner meets this) which effectively _adds_ another useful state to the machine. It's not going to be exactly equivalent to an n+1 machine... it's likely to be better, because a halting n+1 machine has at least one out of (n * symbol) combinations leading to Halt, whereas the BBB(n) can use the full (n * symbol) combinations to do what it needs to, so long as it
00:15:32 <salpynx> can create an arbitrary 'quasihalt' loop with an (n-1) non-terminating TM, form the quasihalt tape state.
00:15:52 <salpynx> ... so you're replacing a halt state with a n-1 state non-terminating TM which happens to overlap or co-exist with the useful machine you are designing
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00:16:36 <korvo> salpynx: Yeah, that seems to be the intuition that Ligocki is building. I admit that I don't have a good imagination for these.
00:17:31 <int-e> salpynx: eventually the oracle power will kick in and blow BB(n) out of the water
00:17:36 <zzo38> What augmentation to FRACTRAN/Bag's rules is it?
00:18:21 <wryl> One where instead of decrementing and incrementing by 1, you decrement and increment by the `min` of all of the registers mentioned on the LHS.
00:18:29 <int-e> like there'll be a /relatively/ small machine that simulates all TMs with 10^100 states in parallel and beeps whenever one of them halts, so BBB(<relatively small number>) > BB(10^100).
00:18:57 <wryl> And one where the LHS can't feature duplicates.
00:20:08 <wryl> It makes moving data around quite fast.
00:20:35 <b_jonas> salpynx: no, you don't make the halting state beep, you make the state that occurs the most frequently before the halt, and since there are very few states and BB is large, that's basically as many beeps as the BB. that proves BBB can't be significantly smaller than BB.
00:21:16 <b_jonas> that BBB is be much larger even for such low number of states isn't obvious to me
00:21:17 <int-e> b_jonas: it counts steps, not beeps
00:21:48 <int-e> I think the definition is carefully crafted to make BB(n) >= BBB(n) trivial.
00:22:11 <wryl> The caveat being that any catalyst-like rules that reduce the `min` to 1 reduce it to FRACTRAN/Bag semantics.
00:22:17 <b_jonas> int-e: probably doesn't matter much, but sure
00:23:32 <salpynx> b_jonas: as int-e said "it counts steps, not beeps", i was thinking it counted beeps first, but BB gets to output 1s on more that one state, BBB only gets 1 beep state, so by that measure BB has to get more 'outputs' in
00:23:47 <int-e> err that inequality is the wrong way around
00:24:32 <salpynx> ... then I got confused whether BB is 'producing the most output' / 'writing the most 1s to the tape' / 'running the longest' ... i think all of those end up be equivalent in the various formulation
00:25:02 <int-e> salpynx: all these notions exist but I think people focus on the number of steps until it halts
00:25:35 <b_jonas> though I wonder if BBB is much larger than BB, in the sense of whether there's no constant C such that BBB(n)<=BB(C*n) for large enough n. like, is BBB really more powerful, or does it just get some advantage for large n?
00:25:50 <b_jonas> s/advantage for large n/advantage for small n/
00:25:55 <int-e> b_jonas: did you see my comment about BB(10^100)?
00:26:49 <b_jonas> so that means BBB is much bigger
00:27:46 <salpynx> int-e: number of steps is the easiest to think about. I agree with your statement about the inequality crafted to make the inequality trivial. It does require understanding that it's a single beep marking the step index, not a beep count
00:28:43 <b_jonas> that shouldn't be different for large n though
00:29:56 <b_jonas> except of course if you want beep count then the operators will get annoyed by all the beeps and disconnect the alarm
00:31:09 <b_jonas> well, if you can still find operators after BBB days in first place
00:32:01 <korvo> Like, it's important to understand how this generalizes, or at least how it's made isomorphism-invariant. The machine only has to go through a "beep state" because we're assuming it's got an underlying FSM.
00:32:50 <korvo> If we forget that the machine has states, and just think of it in terms of observables, then the connection to halting is clear: we're waiting for the machine to satisfy a particular observational requirement.
00:33:24 <korvo> That observable might only manifest as a composite of machine actions or machine states. A classic example is old-school tape drives that walked across server rooms when given a sequence of head-moving operations.
00:34:04 <korvo> But it *must* generalize waiting for the machine to halt, because we can presumably observe whether the machine is halted yet.
00:34:38 <salpynx> this is really interesting, but i think it has more to do with halt definitions rather than IO, and something about it feels like state-count accounting tricks on n, like there will be an exact equivalence trade-off, with no rules broken or extra power conferred, but it certainly doesn't seem trivial to unpack.
00:35:48 <korvo> Yeah, it feels weird that something could still be hard even with an oracle for Halting, right? I struggled with this too.
00:36:17 <b_jonas> hehe. for a turing machine you can observe haltin easily, but I think ais523 managed to define machines with much harder to observe halting conditions
00:38:43 <korvo> DNA computers are a fun example. AIUI we have autocatalytic DNA fragments, so we should be able to do universal computation somehow, but DNA computers don't ever halt, they just (possibly) reach equilibrium.
00:39:01 <salpynx> i know there have been esolang discussions where a tight loop was an uncontroversial alternative to a halt. This seems to be suggesting that unprovably non-halting loops can be used as halt too... which seems like a thing you can say, but, yeah, harder to work with in practice
00:39:31 <b_jonas> and of course you have to remember the context that BB(1000) is already larger than I can imagine
00:39:45 <korvo> Waterfall computers are another fun example. Technically, if you label every atom of water going over Niagara Falls in one second, you can compute by using the permutation of atoms as a reversible computer; but good luck actually tagging quadrillions of molecules.
00:41:00 <korvo> salpynx: Note that, for TMs, halting is definitely an observable, and that's what matters for TCness as it's originally defined. If you can emulate a TM in a system, and whether the emulator has halted is observable, then it doesn't matter if we can't measure the whole system at once.
00:41:14 <korvo> That might be super-obvious to you, sorry.
00:41:46 <salpynx> ugh, just had a though abotu machines that maximise the time for their first beep.. and then again for their second beep... isn't that just two BB's back to back, maybe sharing some states?
00:42:06 <b_jonas> korvo: by quadrillion you mean just 10**15 right? because 10**24 might be more than how many molecules in Niagara Falls
00:42:06 <int-e> Oh also instead of beeping whenever a TM halts, we can instead take the number of steps N so far, and enumerate N-state TMs to simulate (so now there's two separate batches of simulations, and the second one is reset whenever we find a larger N). So we can get BB(BB(10^100)) still with "relatively few" states. (I imagine tens of thousands if we do it with human-understandable means)
00:42:40 <korvo> Yep, you're on the same track as Aaronson and Ligocki (separately), who build nests of equations relating the two different degrees of computation. This sort of thing also shows up in algorithmic information theory.
00:42:40 <int-e> so as usual these constructions start stacking like crazy
00:43:06 <int-e> korvo: yeah I didn't think this would be a novel idea :)
00:43:10 <korvo> b_jonas: Yeah, the smaller amount.
00:44:44 <korvo> int-e: Hah, yeah. I've read the article by...you? Tromp? doing this with BLC. Same idea: the monoid of composition has recursive constraints on its presentation and we can use those to compute the cardinality of (slices of) the presentation.
00:45:54 <int-e> korvo: the term "oracle power" is even in the blog post... I'm just making this a bit more concrete for myself.
00:46:14 <b_jonas> ok never mind, there is 10**24 molecules too, I just can't count
00:47:14 <korvo> int-e: I keep thinking of the Erdös Book, or 0♯, or other indices of proofs. Stuff at the level of Halting is questions about maths. Stuff at the level of Beeping is questions about The Book.
00:47:40 <int-e> korvo: probably Tromp
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00:49:37 <salpynx> i'm laughing just at the idea of not being able to count to 10**24 being a problem, that just struck me as very funny
00:50:28 * int-e just programs in BLC on occasion. Well, there is https://www.isa-afp.org/entries/Goodstein_Lambda.html which qualifies as academic and was motivated by BLC.
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00:54:13 <ais523> <b_jonas> hehe. for a turing machine you can observe haltin easily, but I think ais523 managed to define machines with much harder to observe halting conditions ← for the 2-state 3-symbol turing machine it's actually mostly the initial condition that's the problem, I think it's possible to design an initial condition so that the halt state becomes "goes to the left of the starting location" (although the halt state in my proof was more complicated)
00:55:53 <ais523> I think the attempt to calculate BB(3,3) has now encountered a machine that people are pretty sure halt, but are not yet sure how to simulate it all the way to its halt state
00:56:44 <esolangs> [[Translated !]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143891&oldid=143286 * None1 * (+1682)
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01:16:38 <salpynx> thinking in terms of emulators is interesing. It seems trivial to say any halting TM can be emulated by infinitely many non-halting TMs that do something else after the emulation has completed. What does that mean though? I don't think you can make claims about state counts, because it's also trivial to create examples where computations can be performed by fewer states (if you start with an inefficient state machine to begin with).
01:17:27 <salpynx> for BBB, why can't there be more future beeps, if you can define an observable halting condition like: consider the emulation halted if there are no beeps for m steps, or when there are two consecutive beeps, or some other fixed or relative period of silence from some pre-beeped point
01:23:15 <salpynx> What I joined earlier to say was about bfjoust, but got swiped by bf, IO, and BBB
01:23:26 <salpynx> I have another optimised bfjoust warrior, descended from the same parent as Lymia.nyuroki2 (#2 on the hill). At 2k, it's 1/4 the size of Lymia.nyuroki2, and 1/3 the size of their common ancestor, nyuroki-esoteric. It gets 1st place with 22.21 points, and a Markov score of 59.82.
01:24:02 <salpynx> It's ridiculously manually optimised (maybe fragile?), but the basic algorithm is that of nyuroki-esoteric. nyuroki2 has a slightly more complex version, but it's the same idea as Lymia's original of 8x rushes, and some fiddly magic numbers here and there.
01:24:31 <salpynx> I'm not submitting it to the hill because I need to figure out how to apply the MIT license of the original written in a custom JoustExt script / scala / bfjoust, and mine which is bash scripted bfjoust. I'm treating warriors more like discovering integers or algorithms with interesting properties. Maybe I'm missing something about the required creativity for algorithms made from 8 symbols, or etiquette of re-using code? I do want to attribute prior
01:26:34 <salpynx> I'm using the same basic algorithm of nyuroki, and tweaked some of the parameters (setup minimal defense, then 8 potential rushes, one with params for short tapes), but have significantly increased the Kolmogorov complexity of the rush. Common ancestor nyuroki has only 1 rush type, current hill nyuroki2 has 3 kinds, my versions uses 2 distinct rushes.
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05:56:20 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143894&oldid=143849 * PrySigneToFry * (+728)
06:43:03 <Lymia> There's still life in BFJoust.
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07:13:31 <Lymia> (will aim this at salpynx later, but dropping this here before I forget)
07:15:51 <Lymia> So... nyuroki2 was kinda always a somewhat poorly tuned version of an at-the-time-new (?) strategy group that plays unfair in a lot of small ways. Break the rule of 9 severely, intentionally use decoy setup clashes, straight-up skip a flag without confirming for sure it's not the flag, etc.
07:21:36 <Lymia> Its last closest relative (strategy-wise) was margins3, which tries to win very short tapes and tie longer ones. Nyuroki overall tries to take a more extreme version of this strategy, winning very short and long tapes. Against older bots coded before it, it usually ends up outright losing (generally) tapes from about 11-14 and winning everything else, leading to a ridiculously winning overall score against the entire hill.
07:23:15 <Lymia> It's still got the best W/L record overall (score ladder), and... its dominance there actually kinda distorts the markov ladder. Since, defeating Nyuroki at the cost of several of the weaker bots that Nyuroki still wins you the ladder overall.
07:26:31 <Lymia> Feel free to post variants of it, just... I think it'd end up amounting to hill tuning against to beat the new bots. It'll probably take a few bots in the general strategy group tuned differently for the ladder to "stabilize" again and so that new bots need to beat the whole general strategy "solidly" instead of just taking advantage of flaws/bugs in Nyuroki to get high on the ladder. I'd encourge new similar bots, but also encourge them to be
07:26:31 <Lymia> completely new code based on the same principles.
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08:22:39 <b_jonas> Lymia: you may want to copy some of that to https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_champions#2017
08:28:21 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143896&oldid=143895 * Ractangle * (+154) /* MarkupL syntax */
08:29:34 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143897&oldid=143896 * Ractangle * (+20) /* Hello, world */
08:31:50 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143898&oldid=143897 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Hello, world */
08:32:22 <Lymia> It's kinda hard to describe succinctly because it does a lot of small things rather than any one big thing.
08:32:27 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143899&oldid=143898 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Hello, world */
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08:33:56 <b_jonas> I don't think it needs to be more succint than what you said above. I think the information on how it affected the ladder can fit there.
08:34:53 <wWwwW> i had an esolang idea
08:35:01 <wWwwW> and i want feedback
08:35:16 <b_jonas> or maybe ask ais523, since I'm not really a bfjoust player
08:36:10 <wWwwW> = which is a daller step
08:36:13 <Lymia> Yeah, I can update the champion thing.
08:36:14 <wWwwW> there is a pointer
08:36:28 <wWwwW> it climbs up the nearest ladder(right prorioty)
08:36:28 <Lymia> ... if it's alive, may actually implement my latest idea for an evolver.
08:36:35 <Lymia> And hope it works this time.
08:36:45 <wWwwW> if its at bottom of ladder goes
08:36:50 <wWwwW> up and other way around
08:36:58 <wWwwW> if its somewhere in the middle in between
08:37:25 <wWwwW> goes oppistive of the last ladder direction
08:39:20 <b_jonas> Lymia: fizzie revived zemhill, so it should be alive
08:40:21 <b_jonas> perlbot call ztest bad (>)*9((+.)*180>(+)*100(+.+..)*30>)*20
08:40:24 <perlbot> b_jonas: {"result":"ok","message":"web.b_jonas-bad: points -28.95, score 4.74, rank 47/47\n"}
08:42:35 <b_jonas> a few people were submitting programs too
08:47:01 <b_jonas> perlbot has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3 is a very old bot that I contributed into and is a complete rewrite of buubot2.
08:47:02 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3 is a very old bot that I contributed into and is a complete rewrite of buubot2.
08:47:30 <b_jonas> perlbot search has been there
08:47:30 <perlbot> b_jonas: [<*:##NULL> macro true facts is `eval use Acme::ConspiracyTheory::Random -all; bad_punctuation theory!] [<*:##NULL> has a lot of the same features, but pork has been around for, what, 20 years?] [<*:##NULL> has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3... [Output truncated. http://perl.bot/p/6vzai7 ]
08:47:37 <b_jonas> perlbot search has been there for a year or two
08:47:38 <perlbot> b_jonas: [<*:##NULL> has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3 is a very old bot that I contributed into and is a complete rewrite of buubot2. ] [<*:##NULL> macro true facts is `eval use Acme::ConspiracyTheory::Random -all; bad_punctuation theory!] [<*:##NU... [Output truncated. http://perl.bot/p/pclksz ]
08:47:55 <b_jonas> drat, how do I make it tell what the copula in that is
08:48:08 <b_jonas> perlbot fact has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3
08:48:08 <perlbot> b_jonas: a very old bot that I contributed into and is a complete rewrite of buubot2.
08:48:14 <b_jonas> perlbot forget has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3
08:48:14 <perlbot> b_jonas: Forgot has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3
08:48:29 <b_jonas> perlbot search has been there for a year or two
08:48:29 <perlbot> b_jonas: [<*:##NULL> macro true facts is `eval use Acme::ConspiracyTheory::Random -all; bad_punctuation theory!] [<*:##NULL> itself is nominally opensource, but it's got a history that would make any lawyers upset if you tried to get a proper license for it (3 main authors, me buu and a user by the name of b_jonas). buu disappeared for a while but is now b... [Output truncated. http://perl.bot/p/3vcap4 ]
08:48:44 <b_jonas> ah, that other one looks accidental too
08:48:48 <perlbot> b_jonas: nominally opensource, but it's got a history that would make any lawyers upset if you tried to get a proper license for it (3 main authors, me buu and a user by the name of b_jonas). buu disappeared for a while but is now back, b_jonas has been gone for years and none of us have ever decided to give it a proper license. the rest is all stuff i've spun off that's got proper
08:51:14 <b_jonas> Lymia: anyway, perlbot can send HTTP GET queries, though it has some annoying limitation in how it uses that, it always tries to parse the reply as html or xml, only gives you the parse tree rather than the original source, and sometimes the parsing fails outright, so you can't just download arbitrary content that's not encapsulated in html or xml, though plain text files will often work because they'll
08:51:47 <Lymia> Oh, is the bot not alive?
08:51:50 <b_jonas> Lymia: and also zemhill happens to accept bfjoust submissions of in a GET query, which is a bug, but I decided I'd use it
08:52:15 <zemhill> b_jonas: "!ztest progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
08:52:25 <b_jonas> but I think using perlbot is funnier
08:52:32 <b_jonas> !ztest bad (>)*9([(+.)*150]>)
08:52:33 <zemhill> b_jonas.bad: points -32.86, score 3.02, rank 47/47
08:53:42 <b_jonas> the whole infrastructure, zemhill's hill and website and bot, are rather old and fizzie basically made it mostly work using duct tape
08:53:55 <b_jonas> (of course perlbot is also very old)
08:56:38 <b_jonas> though on the plus side, zemhill was originally written in ruby 1.9, while jevalbot was originally written in ruby 1.8, so zemhill needed fewer layers of duct tape
09:06:36 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143900&oldid=143899 * Ractangle * (+2) /* MarkupL add-ons */
09:10:17 <Lymia> (My last attempt at an evolver was... in retrospect, overcomplicated.)
09:11:08 <wWwwW> would waterfall be TC if you could just reset the value
09:11:16 <Lymia> (An approach came to mind for a BF Joust evolver that follows through how I tend to make bots in practice. Have a concept of "behaviors" which are nested "monotonically".)
09:11:32 <Lymia> (Not sure what the proper term is, but. An ordered list of "behaviors" which can jump to other behaviors that follow them.)
09:11:43 <Lymia> (So complicated strategies can evolve that still reuses code for different "sections".)
09:11:48 <Lymia> (Might still run into fitness landscape issues, but.)
09:12:14 <Lymia> (Basic instructions for constructs like an offset clear or clears in general should help.)
09:20:01 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143901&oldid=143900 * Ractangle * (+608) /* Examples */
09:21:41 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143902&oldid=143901 * Ractangle * (-2) /* MarkupL add-ons */
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09:53:11 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143903&oldid=143902 * Ractangle * (+376) /* Cat program */
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10:27:41 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143904&oldid=143903 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Cat program */
10:28:37 <iddi01> !zjoust another_rush_program ++>>>(+)*5<(-)*5<(+)*33(>)*4(>[([+[+[--[-[-[(-[{(+)*23(+[{(+)*95(+.)*23(>(+)*117(+.)*23)*-1}])%22}])%20]]]]]]>)*25]++>-)*15
10:28:37 <zemhill> iddi01.another_rush_program: points 0.98, score 21.57, rank 20/47
10:30:46 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143905&oldid=143904 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Cat program */
10:49:19 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143906&oldid=143905 * Ractangle * (+464) /* MarkupL syntax */
10:49:29 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143907&oldid=143906 * Ractangle * (+7) /* MarkupL syntax */
10:54:01 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143908&oldid=143907 * Ractangle * (+66) /* MarkupL syntax */
10:56:20 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143909&oldid=143908 * Ractangle * (+32) /* Cat program */
10:56:55 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143910&oldid=143909 * Ractangle * (-11) /* Cat program */
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11:15:31 <Lymia> !zjoust worst_program (><)*-1
11:15:32 <zemhill> Lymia.worst_program: points -33.05, score 3.06, rank 47/47
11:19:14 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143911&oldid=143557 * Ractangle * (+17) /* 4ME */
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11:26:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143912&oldid=143422 * Cycwin * (+119)
11:28:17 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143913&oldid=139947 * Ractangle * (-83)
11:32:54 <b_jonas> question. do bfjoust abbreviations let you compactly describe a quasi-infinite string P where P = [QP[RP]] where Q and R are given programs with brackets balanced, and the closing square brackets are never reached?
11:33:23 <b_jonas> if it's just P = [QP] then you can write that as ([Q{}])*-1
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12:03:46 <b_jonas> wait no, that's the wrong question
12:04:12 <b_jonas> I'll have to figure out the real question later
12:14:08 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143914&oldid=143886 * ATProtogen * (-54)
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12:29:58 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143915&oldid=143910 * Ractangle * (-21) /* MarkupL syntax */
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12:59:30 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143916&oldid=143855 * PkmnQ * (+2283) More minimization
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13:51:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143919&oldid=140439 * Yes * (+87)
13:58:00 <supercode> Is there a proof available for Brainfuck being Turing Complete?
13:59:40 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143920&oldid=142715 * PkmnQ * (+311)
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14:28:33 <esolangs> [[BubbleLang/Error]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143923&oldid=139584 * PrySigneToFry * (+339)
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15:02:02 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143924&oldid=143859 * Ractangle * (+42)
15:06:40 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143925 * Ractangle * (+210) Created page with "{{WIP}}If you make an error in the code (for example putting an undefined variable into the code) in a Snakel interpreter. Then the terminal will emit an error and will explain and show where you made a mistake"
15:07:00 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143926&oldid=143925 * Ractangle * (+1)
15:07:28 <esolangs> [[SKR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143927 * Hakerh400 * (+7075) +[[SKR]]
15:08:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143928&oldid=143848 * Hakerh400 * (+10) +[[SKR]]
15:08:18 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143929&oldid=141802 * Hakerh400 * (+10) +[[SKR]]
15:09:23 <esolangs> [[SKR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143930&oldid=143927 * Hakerh400 * (+2)
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17:06:50 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143931&oldid=143926 * Ractangle * (+14)
17:35:45 <esolangs> [[Hostile snakes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143932 * Yayimhere * (+801) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''hostile snakes''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. hostile snakes is a 2d self modifying esolang with ladders. dont worry about the name, its just an overcomplicated pun == how it works == the pointer starts at lower right corner, an
17:42:17 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143933&oldid=143931 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) Back
17:43:29 <esolangs> [[Hostile snakes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143934&oldid=143932 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+81) Categories
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17:50:13 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143935&oldid=143933 * Ractangle * (+25) /* TypeError */
17:50:59 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Compatibility methods]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143936&oldid=143725 * Ractangle * (+17)
17:52:46 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143937&oldid=143924 * Ractangle * (+33) /* Truth-machine */
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18:01:57 <int-e> korvo: https://paste.debian.net/1332858/
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18:16:22 <korvo> int-e: Wow, fast. I'll reproduce in a bit.
18:17:37 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143938&oldid=143935 * Ractangle * (+198) /* Using a wrong type */
18:18:06 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143939&oldid=143938 * Ractangle * (+53)
18:19:00 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143940&oldid=143939 * Ractangle * (+41) /* Using a wrong type in a variable */
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18:25:13 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143941&oldid=143940 * Ractangle * (+256) /* Using a wrong type in a variable */
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18:56:50 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143942&oldid=143922 * ATProtogen * (-16)
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19:07:18 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143943&oldid=143913 * Ractangle * (+98) /* Rewritten 4ME */
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19:11:58 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143944&oldid=143943 * Ractangle * (+56) /* Commands */
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19:12:56 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143945&oldid=143942 * ATProtogen * (-93)
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19:16:32 <korvo> int-e: Yep, your example works. Very nice! Do you prefer this pastebin for permanent links, or can I save a copy to the bb-gauge repo?
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19:19:36 <int-e> I prefer the pastebin for the time being
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19:22:37 <ais523> Lymia: I wanted to tell you that nyuroki2 is more impressive than you probably think it is – the way you check for clashing decoy setups is innovative and it's actually a surprisingly hard program to beat with something other than a slightly tweaked copy of itself
19:23:05 <ais523> even the slightly broken antishudder has been causing me huge problems, it is harder to exploit than either a fully working antishudder or an absent one
19:23:14 <korvo> Oh, I'm going to have to remember how to XML-RPC in order to get a raw copy of the paste, aren't I... How would I do that from Nix? This is suddenly an engineering problem.
19:28:38 <int-e> korvo: hmm there's no visible link for that but https://paste.debian.net/plain/1332858/ works
19:29:01 <korvo> int-e: TIL! I had no idea.
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19:29:30 <int-e> err, actually there *is* a link at the very bottom
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19:30:12 <int-e> ah, no, that's just for the creator of the paste.
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19:34:51 <korvo> int-e: Well, I'm happy to record this as an "Interp(BCL)" weighing in at 2087 characters for now. I'll push that in a bit.
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19:37:11 <int-e> korvo: It's a bit less if you drop the first loop (which serves as a comment). But also, the restriction to terms is noteworthy.
19:38:21 <int-e> (full BCL does the same thing as BLC where a self-delimited program is parsed and the rest of the input bits are passed to the program as an argument)
19:38:49 <ais523> now I am wondering how BCL compares to Iota/Jot
19:39:08 <ais523> they are conceptually very similar, just different primitives
19:39:24 <ais523> and directly compiling in either direction would bloat the size of the program…
19:39:31 <korvo> Hm, I should double-check that my optimizer is removing the first loop. I'm canonicalizing all of the BF programs so that we're on a level playing ground; the gauge would not be very useful if it were calibrated by the length of English comments rather than code.
19:41:16 <b_jonas> ais523: is "BCL" a typo for BLC?
19:41:42 <int-e> BCL is the spiritual precursor of BLC
19:41:43 <b_jonas> you mean BCL as in an encoding for S-K
19:42:05 <b_jonas> I should just call that one BBS (binary bird sociology)
19:48:58 <int-e> korvo: the fact that there are no links at the bottom is weird. compare https://paste.debian.net/1332870
19:49:19 <korvo> int-e: Ugh, confirmed that the first loop isn't being dropped. I guess I know what I'm doing after lunch. Thanks for catching that!
19:49:53 <korvo> ...Oh, that's creepy. Wonder why it's different? Is there a premium tier or something?
19:50:14 <int-e> I declared it as Brainfuck so maybe something is wrong with that.
19:51:49 <int-e> Hmm, no, it's not that. It chokes on the unicode ⇒
19:52:08 <korvo> Curious. I notice that it's Perl, so maybe they're using something in the Perl ecosystem instead of Pygments. For contrast, here's a Python version, expy in 24hrs: https://bpa.st/M3CAHS76F4E7R6HK3W3WZRBQC4
19:56:53 <int-e> half of that issue was reported here (2 1/2 years ago) https://github.com/formorer/paste.pl/issues/17
19:57:56 <korvo> Heh, cleaning out my gists, found something tangent to combinators: https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/3c2b2a37f88e750f386fd9053f481351
19:58:08 <int-e> hmmmmm https://github.com/formorer/paste.pl/blob/master/lib/Paste/Template/Plugin/Highlight.pm#L494
19:58:48 <korvo> Those names are from Metamath's intuitionistic logic database, but I did it like Agda with lambdas. I do *not* remember why I was doing this; maybe I was proving that the concept worked before writing a compiler from Metamath.
20:01:06 <korvo> Oh wait, I remember. https://github.com/sorear/metamath-turing-machines did the same thing, but to NQL, for making small TMs. So this must have been part of a proof-search project.
20:02:01 <int-e> (the reason I used the unicode arrow is that => interferes with Brainfuck code. And there's no nice ASCII substitute. =} looks bad.)
20:03:40 <b_jonas> int-e: kvikkalkul uses (: for the <= arrow
20:04:32 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143946&oldid=143944 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Commands */
20:04:48 <int-e> Hmm. I already have machinery for skipping over BCL (sub-)terms. I could probably do "full non-interactive BCL" without too much trouble.
20:05:58 <int-e> (It becomes interactive with lazy evaluation and on-demand input; that doesn't fit well with the program as written.)
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20:07:10 <int-e> oh and lazy output too
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20:35:05 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143947&oldid=143946 * Ractangle * (-258)
20:47:03 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143948&oldid=143941 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Using a wrong type in a variable */
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21:35:46 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again16]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143949&oldid=143692 * MihaiEso * (+42)
21:43:39 <Lymia> ais523: what was the "slightly broken" thing you found there anyways?
21:43:42 <Lymia> Haven't looked at it in a while.
21:49:12 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again13]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143950 * MihaiEso * (+2154) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again16|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Warning: You have a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 that is old and usedV46L}4=0 `lA`}y;}b@jSHOmZif_&E,WY>OKy2C+Z#7F.ca=Onk{G bT`j;O1-~Z!]</span>]] 1. Drag out that uNJw..."
21:52:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143951&oldid=143836 * MihaiEso * (+98) /* Make Translated ORK/PSTF Again16 it scarier ! */
21:52:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143952&oldid=143594 * MihaiEso * (+335) /* Make Translated ORK/Mihai Again10 Mor ary! */
22:09:13 <ais523> Lymia: on some timings it moves on from a shuddered cell without checking it twice
22:10:04 <ais523> which meant that ash couldn't lock it in its antishudder – it *could* trick it off the tape on some timings but that seems to be probabilistic and it zeroes the flag first on most timing combinations
22:10:42 <esolangs> [[Overload/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143953&oldid=143861 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-4) /* Translation */
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22:45:38 <Lymia> Yeah, that's intentional. If it sees the cell as 0 twice (total, not twice in a row), it assumes it's not the flag.
22:52:04 <esolangs> [[And]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143954&oldid=71054 * Timothytomato * (-30) fixed codeblock formatting
22:58:40 <Lymia> (Reasoning there is that the anti-shudder clear (with fairly high chance (?), haven't done the math) should have already set the cell to zero two times in a row once that condition's reached, even if the code's not directly observed it.)
23:00:22 <esolangs> [[Spain without the S]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143955 * Timothytomato * (+7302) created pain
23:02:39 <ais523> empirically it seems to be well above 50%
23:06:21 <esolangs> [[User:Timothytomato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143956&oldid=132870 * Timothytomato * (+26)
23:09:57 <esolangs> [[Spain without the S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143957&oldid=143955 * Timothytomato * (+12) honestly idk the computational class
23:12:44 <esolangs> [[Brainword]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143958&oldid=132730 * Timothytomato * (+29) nondeterministic
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00:22:03 <salpynx> Lymia: hi! I didn't realize you were on here still :) Thanks for the comments and explanation of how nyuroki works (I'll happily add it to the wiki as part of organising my notes)
00:25:45 <salpynx> it is impressive, i chose it to work with because the high-level description was so short compared to some of the other high performers -- i'm mainly fixating on the nyuroki-esoteric.jx version which seems extra elegant, even though it's not the best performer
00:27:17 <salpynx> I can see what it's doing, but it's a lot harder to understand _why_ it does so well, your explanation helps with that
00:32:24 <salpynx> i'm happy to see my unstable_atom dropped about 3 places with the addition only a few other warriors lower in the rankings. Instability from over-tuning was a 'design goal'
00:34:53 <salpynx> the optimised nyuroki i ran the other does does slightly worse with the new additions, but not too badly: points: 22.21 -> 21.79 , Markov score 59.82 -> 58.50
00:38:04 <salpynx> Lymia: seeing your evolver would be interesting. i feel like i've got a feel for optimising details, but i need to work on understanding higher level strategies. bfjoust is a bit hard to 'get into' without having participated in the early evolution.
00:39:44 <salpynx> i misread logs and thought there was a proposal for a bot to monitor the ranking ladder for new entries, then immediately evolve and autosubmit a re-tuned version of itself (nasty!)
00:40:22 <salpynx> ... there was an unrelated 'ladder' esolang idea interleaved in the chat
00:40:39 <korvo> Oh, machine search is allowed for BF Joust? Interesting.
00:41:59 <salpynx> ... well, is it? It seems controversial. It's hard to tell how some warriors were made. I thought Sookie was hypothesised (by ais523?) to be machine generated.
00:44:06 <salpynx> i'd happily consider my recent 'optimisations' to be in a similar vein ... except i wasn't smart enough to code any kind of GA, and just evolved them by hand to develop an intuition on how to improve warriors
00:44:54 <korvo> I don't know. I imagine it'd be a per-hill policy.
00:45:39 <korvo> Relevant: Putting "Functional Genetic Programming with Combinators" https://www.cs.hmc.edu/~oneill/papers/Combinators-ASPGP.pdf on my rereading list.
00:49:43 <ais523> I think Sookie is machine-generated, although I don't have any proof
00:51:25 <salpynx> hand optimising was quite fun, i felt like i was exploring valleys and peaks of multi-dimensional terrain, in a particular local minimum, with only 2 floats as feedback
00:52:16 <salpynx> I just played a bit of bee-game, and there was a similar exploration vibe, but I know less people have explored the bfjoust terrain
00:54:06 <salpynx> b_jonas: which reminds me, Baba is you is not on your game list. I discovered via this channel (and enjoyed it!)
00:56:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cobaltbluestars * New user account
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01:16:31 <korvo> int-e: Okay, everything's pushed now; bbgauge.info will update in a minute. I ended up making the code change in my BF optimizer and pushing that as well.
01:17:10 <korvo> Along the way, I noticed that my BF implementation takes about 2.5s to run the typical mandel.b, and I think maybe that's due to writing a single character at a time. Do I feel like taking on output buffering? Maybe dinner first.
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01:32:23 <Lymia> I did realize a small optimization I could put out for a nyuroki3 that'd be pretty quick to write and maybe would 'stabilize' the ladder a little bit.
01:33:01 <Lymia> Since the way the same code is generated creates a lot of times, I could make each version slightly different programatically in a way that throws off timing/etc based tuning.
01:43:19 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143959&oldid=143890 * B jonas * (+14) /* Games that the esolangs community plays */
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04:16:35 <Lymia> !ztest nyuroki3 https://dl.aura.moe/paste/lymia/nyuroki3_0rg9zqhv38wwh1n9zi3ybyy985sp2cxllbjpai2qyya8fv9klp6j.bf
04:16:35 <zemhill> Lymia: URL fetch problems: No such file or directory @ rb_sysopen - https://dl.aura.moe/paste/lymia/nyuroki3_0rg9zqhv38wwh1n9zi3ybyy985sp2cxllbjpai2qyya8fv9klp6j.bf
04:19:58 <Lymia> !zjoust test_prog <
04:19:58 <zemhill> Lymia.test_prog: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
04:41:00 <Lymia> !zjoust nyuroki2 <
04:41:00 <zemhill> Lymia.nyuroki2: points -45.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-45)
04:47:52 <Lymia> !zjoust pushiguess <
04:47:52 <zemhill> Lymia.pushiguess: points -45.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
04:48:05 <zemhill> Lymia.test: points -45.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
04:50:01 <salpynx> I haven't used the url feature of those commands, but the URL works for me, and your command looks fine too, idk why it's not happy
05:18:01 <salpynx> Lymia: fwiw, here are the changes I made to nyuroki, in one git diff https://github.com/hornc/JoustExt/commit/162f51d6a0d12688e241059d6f6a2c4ce5ecc2d3 when viewed like this the changes to the strategy look minimal, and my rush changes are just obscure..
05:19:59 <salpynx> the repeated 255s stood out, after reviewing existing code repetition counts i noticed 256 present in multiple of ais523s warriors, so i think i possibly black box reverse engineered those particular values
05:20:13 <Lymia> I'm working on a version with randomized constants, and generally retuned.
05:20:20 <Lymia> Should make timing-based attacks extremely difficult.
05:22:32 <salpynx> I think i need to go back to the drawing board and try to understand the higher level strategies better, i can't really explain the differences between the rush. I don't fully understand the originals, nor do i understand my changes. Was hoping that studying the differences would reveal something interesting
05:27:48 <salpynx> I was struck by the fact that sensing anything is limited _and_ expensive, and the notation supporting the hardcoded magic numbers. Tuning the numbers seemed the only (or at least most obvious) deterministic strategy. Perhaps i took it too far though
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05:31:54 <salpynx> feel free to use anything good in those changes back. I liked the [-.-+] wobble, i did change some to [-] where it made no difference to the score originally (to reduce size), but stopped because [-.-+] seemed much stronger when it mattered
05:39:55 <Lymia> I used a 7-cycle wobble to decrease the chance of it being locked by something designed to lock 5-clears.
05:41:43 <zemhill> web.Lymia_nyuroki3: points 16.19, score 42.83, rank 1/47
05:42:22 <Lymia> !zjoust test_prog <
05:42:23 <zemhill> Lymia.test_prog: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-43)
05:51:11 <salpynx> oh no, nyuroki3 lost first place just because of the `<`?
05:54:41 <salpynx> and nyuroki2 has gone -- how do you swap out one of your own warriors like that to avoid spamming minor variations (I am hesitant to submit anything atm)?
05:56:27 <salpynx> oh, ok i see what you did earlier, clever (but sad to see it go)
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06:42:10 <Lymia> !ztest blind_bat (>)*9([(+.)*256>{}])*-1
06:42:11 <zemhill> Lymia.blind_bat: points -30.57, score 3.82, rank 47/47
06:42:40 <Lymia> !ztest blind_bat (>)*9([(+.)*256>{}]>)*-1
06:42:41 <zemhill> Lymia.blind_bat: points -30.57, score 3.82, rank 47/47
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07:57:08 <esolangs> [[BigFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143960&oldid=102702 * Ractangle * (+72) /* Examples */
07:59:07 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143961&oldid=143959 * B jonas * (+16)
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08:26:33 <zemhill> web.Lymia_nyuroki3: points 16.29, score 42.75, rank 2/47 (--)
08:30:28 <Lymia> ais523: ash is pretty fun. Consistently beats nyuroki even after retuning for hill.
08:31:30 <Lymia> ash, nyuroki and impatience definitely seem to be a bit of a "new generation" going on here.
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09:31:06 <fizzie> The URL thing is probably a Ruby change I didn't account for.
09:32:44 <fizzie> Apparently Ruby 3 removed the facility of the standard `open` method to open URLs, so it's trying to open it as a file. Should be easy enough to fix.
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09:40:22 <fizzie> !ztest just_a_test https://zem.fi/git/?p=hill;a=blob_plain;f=web.Lymia_nyuroki3.bfjoust;h=e67c7e291837ba2827649966557628aab7b319de;hb=af8810ea990f34634637ddc4677c00f401b44c90
09:40:22 <zemhill> fizzie.just_a_test: points 15.29, score 40.83, rank 2/47
09:40:38 <fizzie> Yeah, a four-character fix, adding `URI.` in front of `open`.
09:51:19 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143962&oldid=143321 * Lymia * (+1208) Update description for Lymia.nyuroki2.
09:53:19 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143963&oldid=143962 * Lymia * (-4) Small wording changes to nyuroki2 description.
10:01:08 <Lymia> Going to try and start work on the framework for an evolver again. Going to have to dig up the old "every bfjoust program ever" repos, lol.
10:01:25 <Lymia> I think I put them into cold storage somewhere already, since I can't find them.
10:35:23 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143964&oldid=143711 * Froginstarch * (+2)
10:48:45 <esolangs> [[Chinese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143965&oldid=122897 * None1 * (+17)
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11:15:11 <Lymia> My old code didn't bitrot too much, at least. Running a hill of 11000 bfjoust programs again.
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11:27:23 <esolangs> [[User:ATProtogen/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143966&oldid=143945 * ATProtogen * (-104)
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11:44:18 <esolangs> [[Translated !]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143967&oldid=143891 * None1 * (+46)
11:44:36 <esolangs> [[Translated !]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143968&oldid=143967 * None1 * (+2) /* See also */
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13:23:41 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again17]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143969 * PrySigneToFry * (+2179) Created page with "Translated ORK/Mihai Again13|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Sorry, your Android system has been hacked, please deal with it as soon as p#~=/?+{$M??}?}WD_??}?}u?O4bD?k??#?????eJ_o+#}e?/2??{IS|? D'!0#0Nb\?V ..."
13:24:15 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143970&oldid=143950 * PrySigneToFry * (+78)
13:24:56 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143971&oldid=143694 * PrySigneToFry * (+74)
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14:10:28 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143972&oldid=143841 * PrySigneToFry * (+93)
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14:32:48 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143973&oldid=143972 * PrySigneToFry * (+1080)
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17:03:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143974 * Ais523 * (+432) I have an unreleased project that was going down similar lines is it worth making the terminology the same?
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17:39:12 <ais523> <salpynx> the repeated 255s stood out, after reviewing existing code repetition counts i noticed 256 present in multiple of ais523s warriors, so i think i possibly black box reverse engineered those particular values ← when I use exactly 256 it is generally not an arbitrary choice, but rather an attempt to ensure that a lock is "stable" i.e. the same values are encountered each time around the opponent's loop
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18:42:10 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143975&oldid=143947 * Ractangle * (+77) /* Commands */
18:55:47 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143976&oldid=143975 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Commands */
18:57:52 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143977&oldid=143928 * Ractangle * (+32) /* N */
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20:17:41 <ais523> Lymia: nyuroki's antishudder is the sort of thing that ash struggles with – it wants to lock programs in their antishudder but isn't consistent enough in the timing to manage it against one that doesn't do two checks
20:18:13 <ais523> and if the program doesn't have one it wants to shudder them to death, and isn't likely to hit the timing that survives
20:18:31 <ais523> ("ash" is an acronym for "anti-shudder", incidentally – it's the part of the program it attacks)
20:23:37 <Lymia> That... makes sense. It explains well why it's one of those programs that blows out markov scoring without high points. :D
20:24:26 <ais523> I've been wondering whether it's possible to adapt ash to get wins in some of the scenarios that are currently draws – probably not given that there aren't many draws that correspond to a win at the other polarity
20:24:40 <ais523> only monolith and polexchange are draws on one polarity and wins on the other
20:26:31 <ais523> I actually think that the current state of BF Joust defence programs is in an equilibrium between shudders and shudder-triplocks; unlike most defensive styles it doesn't seem possible to make a program that reliably beats both, whereas most defensive mechanisms do have a reliable way to beat them
20:27:16 <ais523> preparation and growth have both started mainly losing to programs which can out-decoy them, which is a bit of a surprise given the lengths they go to to set up a lot of decoys before starting their rushes
20:29:23 <ais523> in general I feel like the "era of pokes" is over – pokes seem to be reliably beaten by tape length estimation methods, which is a bit surprising and not what I expected them to lose to
20:29:46 <ais523> perhaps this is a sign that the range of possible tape lengths needs to be larger
20:30:23 <ais523> I have been wondering about 8 to 32 so that there are 50 games in a match rather than 42 – with each game being win/lose/draw that would let you record a program's performance against another as an integer percentage
20:33:24 <Lymia> There's a trick I found in nyuroki that makes me unsure about increasing the tape length spread.
20:33:52 <Lymia> Namely, skipping a large range of cells (I've found that even 8 works on the current ladder) after the rule of 8.
20:34:34 <Lymia> Increasing the tape length spread will make those tactics way stronger.
20:34:44 <ais523> people have been trying that for ages and mostly couldn't make it work
20:35:11 <ais523> I think the way to make it work has been cracked, though – you check for clashing decoy setups before doing it
20:35:44 <ais523> there are definitely matchups where it hurts, e.g. it's the reason why nyuroki draws with omnipotence rather than beating it
20:36:47 <ais523> omnipotence can only probabilistically beat nyuroki in normal circumstances, and the probability is less than 50%, but nyuroki shoots off the tape on the short tape lengths
20:36:53 <ais523> which brings it back to even
20:36:56 <Lymia> Yeah, it's a tradeoff as always.
20:38:57 <ais523> many opponents can be discourage from trying that sort of thing by making a fake decoy in front of the opponent's front decoy, because most programs check in front of their decoys to look for clashing decoy setups and/or opponents' clears
20:39:11 <ais523> but you can't reliably do that against nyuroki because it only checks inside its own decoys
20:39:35 <ais523> and except on short tapes, it's hard to get inside quickly enough
20:39:50 <ais523> (unless you unconditionally skip the first decoy)
20:40:19 <Lymia> That's the exact thing the short probablistic lock targets.
20:41:37 <ais523> that only works if the opponent is clearing, though
20:41:51 <ais523> if you get inside, set a fake decoy, then go back to setting up your own decoys and then finally rush
20:41:58 <Lymia> Yeah, a poke has better chances there. Huh.
20:42:03 <Lymia> I did have an idea to try.
20:43:01 <ais523> stealth4 isn't a champion but it did teach me a lot about the current hill
20:49:04 <ais523> I think a program that sets a lot of decoys, then alternates between rushing, and repairing its rightmost uncleared decoy, would do quite well – but it'd be a lot of work to write
20:50:02 <ais523> and you'd need to do an offset-clear-like thing of your own decoys in order to distinguish them from opposing trails (but you wouldn't clear all the way, just enough ro repair)
20:51:00 <ais523> btw, I got inspired by Lua Joust to wonder if it would be possible to create an esolang that allowed complex-ish BF Joust programs to be expressed succinctly, but which wasn't powerful enough to lead to, e.g., reliable triplock escapes
20:51:34 <ais523> my current plan involves a state machine + 1 counter + one pointer to a tape cell (which can only be set to your current cell), control flow can check the distance you are from the pointer or your own flag, or the value of the counter against a constant
20:52:41 <ais523> one nice thing about this is that it has decidable halting, so you can detect whether the programs have got stuck in an infinite loop or whether it will resolve, and check to see if a program can enter an infinite loop with no wait/move/tape-change/tape-check commands
20:54:09 <ais523> meanwhile, another nice balance property of "tape length estimation" programs is that they lose more short lengths against low-decoy defence programs than they do against typical rush programs, which helps to keep defensive programs viable
20:54:54 <Lymia> (geez, a basic poke right now is bottom of hill. Difficult hill...)
20:55:07 <ais523> incidentally, is there a reason why web.Lymia_nyuroki3 has no "n" characters in it? there are plenty of comments that look like they should have one, but have spaces instead
20:56:13 <Lymia> It's fine on the file on my disk.
20:57:24 <ais523> I have noticed that if I use the web form, my newlines get replaced with spaces
20:57:30 <ais523> maybe there's something that is replacing both \n and regular n?
20:58:49 <ais523> while thinking about "basic hills for beginners to practice against", I divided BF Joust programs into six main categories (with the idea that each hill should have a fixed number from each category)
20:59:24 <ais523> two fast rush categories (one for "stable fast rushes" that don't shoot off the tape against defenders / flag-adjusters / no-decoy programs, and one for "reckless fast rushes" that do, at least sometimes)
20:59:41 <ais523> two defence categories (one for programs that defend on the flag, and one for programs that defend in front of the flag)
21:00:21 <ais523> and two slow rush categories (one for programs that try to out-decoy the opponent, with pokes, big offsets, and the like; and one for programs that instead try to win through a superior number of decoys, often by using small decoys and by skipping forward if the tape seems to be large)
21:01:01 <ais523> the last of those categories has been doing very well recently, nyuroki belongs to it obviously, but also most of my best rushers
21:04:29 <ais523> actually I feel like what the hill is really missing is a good fast rusher – they tend to fall off the hill faster than the other techniques and not to get near the top
21:04:57 <Lymia> I'm trying to build a more modern poker right now.
21:06:38 <ais523> so the most survivable pokers on the hill are quintopia's space pokes, ais523.slowpoke, and two defensive poke programs (ais523.omnipotence and Oj742.quicklock)
21:08:54 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143978&oldid=143976 * Ractangle * (+57)
21:09:11 <ais523> defensive pokes arguably make more sense than aggressive ones – they are more survivable against being counterpoked, and timer clears mean that locks often break nowadays so getting a head start on the clear increases the chance you win before the lock breaks
21:11:21 <ais523> one of the reasons my state-machine+counter+pointer plan has the pointer is so that programs can remember the location they poked to
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21:20:06 <Lymia> !ztest lugh https://dl.aura.moe/paste/lymia/lugh_0yak4ycn8wq0809bm3331lzw36bk7q5qvpsma2461q1i3adz44jl.bf
21:20:09 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points -10.86, score 12.29, rank 45/47
21:20:22 <Lymia> Very difficult. :D
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21:20:55 <Lymia> !zjoust lugh https://dl.aura.moe/paste/lymia/lugh_0yak4ycn8wq0809bm3331lzw36bk7q5qvpsma2461q1i3adz44jl.bf
21:20:58 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points -10.86, score 12.42, rank 45/47
21:21:00 <Lymia> Going to put it up and see how it gets screwed, lol.
21:21:33 <Lymia> Beats impatience, huuuh.
21:22:06 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again14]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143979 * MihaiEso * (+2058) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again17|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Sorry, your brand new iPhone 16 Pro Max is brokenX|[;2ddAgb=>_q@9pJD#9hj{jO:)e-cI0B4ZXCAny,boErNsK:x^f*k>+!cS</span>]] 1. Drag out that Y[@$RLOI..."
21:22:41 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again17]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143980&oldid=143969 * MihaiEso * (+45)
21:24:25 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points -6.93, score 15.40, rank 41/47 (+4)
21:25:46 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143981&oldid=143971 * MihaiEso * (+393) /* Horribly translated variants */
21:28:03 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143982&oldid=143981 * MihaiEso * (-130) /* Horribly translated variants */
21:37:07 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points -6.60, score 15.69, rank 41/47 (--)
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21:39:20 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points -6.50, score 15.96, rank 41/47 (--)
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21:49:58 <ais523> Lymia: so there's a bug in impatience where if there's a blank cell between two decoys, the same timer is used across both decoys
21:50:05 <ais523> rather than resetting it
21:50:33 <ais523> but it's hard to fix while fitting into BF Joust's control flow limitations, unless you remove the check to see if a cell is zero before trying to clear it
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21:54:51 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points -5.86, score 16.36, rank 40/47 (+1)
21:55:24 <Lymia> That explains something I'm running into.
22:04:30 <fizzie> Ugh. I noticed that 'n' thing (because I used web.Lymia_nyuroki3 as the test program for the URL), but thought "well they're probably been using some tool where 'n' is a special debug instruction and therefore it's had all 'n' letters removed", not that that makes so much sense.
22:06:02 <fizzie> The reason why the web thing strips '\n' is that it talks to the Ruby program (that runs the bot and generally manages the hill) over a Unix domain socket using a line-oriented protocol, so the program must be on one line.
22:09:20 <fizzie> The CGI script does `code = code.tr("\n", ' ')` in Ruby, but I think that should just be a newline in the first string.
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22:13:51 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points -5.71, score 16.75, rank 38/47 (+2)
22:23:19 <fizzie> `` ruby -e 'print("nanana\nfoo".tr("\n", " "))'
22:23:31 <fizzie> Looks like that shouldn't do anything to 'n's.
22:23:37 <zemhill> web.ais523_impatience: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-45)
22:23:50 <ais523> !bfjoust impatience http://nethack4.org/pastebin/impatience.bfjoust
22:23:59 <ais523> !zjoust impatience http://nethack4.org/pastebin/impatience.bfjoust
22:24:00 <zemhill> ais523.impatience: points 16.86, score 44.28, rank 2/47
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22:25:50 <esolangs> [[DoEverything();]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143983&oldid=84808 * Timothytomato * (-15) im pretty sure turing machines cant cure cancer
22:26:42 <Lymia> Oh, that explains why I'm getting weird scores, you updated impatience.
22:30:04 <ais523> I fixed a bug that made the timers expire too quickly, and then I could make the timers shorter because I didn't need to compensate for the bug any more
22:33:16 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points -6.86, score 15.29, rank 42/47 (-4)
22:33:34 <Lymia> Negative score, but... don't have the version that got the 38 anymore.
22:33:40 <Lymia> (And I think it's impatience's fault anyways)
22:34:35 <Lymia> Lugh's... polarizing right now.
22:34:45 <Lymia> Lots of great immediate wins, and lots of bad loses.
22:37:15 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143984&oldid=143963 * Ais523 * (+106) /* 2024 */ updates to impatience (I fixed a bug in it, meaning I didn't need to compensate)
22:37:41 <ais523> right, I noticed the bug in impatience by watching it against lugh
22:37:50 <ais523> the bug was triggered via two decoys with an empty cell between them
22:38:04 <ais523> (which lugh does, or at least did at the time)
22:41:22 <Lymia> Yeah, it was the impatience matchup fucking it up.
22:41:31 <Lymia> Against all logic, more compact decoy setups were losing more often instead of winning more often.
22:41:35 <Lymia> Which doesn't make sense otherwise.
22:54:39 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points 0.21, score 21.01, rank 20/47 (+22)
22:54:52 <Lymia> That's an aggressive poker that'll stick on the hill for a while.
22:58:26 <Lymia> One last feature I intended to implement which should win it a few more matchups.
22:58:30 <Lymia> But don't know where it's going from there.
22:58:45 <Lymia> Decent mid-ladder bot with an outdated strategy should be good enough. :D
22:58:55 <esolangs> [[BIT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143985&oldid=101514 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+10)
23:02:03 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points 0.93, score 22.21, rank 16/47 (+4)
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23:10:31 <zemhill> web.salpynx_kalb: points -3.74, score 17.10, rank 34/47
23:11:15 <ais523> hmm, that lugh update made leviathan raise 21 places
23:11:27 <ais523> and then it dropped 13 when kalb was posted
23:11:41 <Lymia> Malkov scoring is super-unstable.
23:12:19 <ais523> although, oddly, it's normally fairly stable with respects to posting a champion or very high-scoring program
23:12:23 <ais523> it's the mid-scoring programs that mess things up
23:13:10 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points -1.45, score 20.26, rank 20/47 (+11)
23:13:33 <Lymia> Should be a feature-complete Lugh.
23:17:57 <salpynx> !ztest experiment_optinyuroki https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hornc/JoustExt/897620ad597db89b3378aa7881023c354fe887af/examples/nyuroki-opti.bf
23:17:57 <zemhill> salpynx.experiment_optinyuroki: points 19.74, score 51.57, rank 1/47
23:20:15 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points 0.14, score 20.91, rank 20/47 (--)
23:20:49 <salpynx> the kalb bot is a collaborative drawing program which detects the playfied size and draws a scaled image, then i tried optimizing to score ok. I was trying to see how bots could collaborate
23:21:33 <Lymia> Lugh is the perfect midtier, lol.
23:23:57 <ais523> oh, a licensing note: "MIT license" is ambiguous, there is more than one version
23:25:48 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points 1.17, score 22.39, rank 14/47 (+6)
23:28:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mwwv * New user account
23:29:07 <Lymia> Oh, that explains why polarity messes with it so much.
23:29:11 <Lymia> Both my tripwires are the same polarity.
23:30:08 <zzo38> ais523: I knew that there is more than one BSD license, I did not know about MIT but now we can know, good
23:31:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143986&oldid=143774 * Mwwv * (+172) hiya
23:32:40 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points 1.45, score 22.52, rank 16/47 (-2)
23:32:57 <Lymia> It's a moderate loss in markov score, but... better overall points, and more stable against a common bot type.
23:34:47 <esolangs> [[User:Mwwv]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143987 * Mwwv * (+407) create
23:36:16 <zemhill> Lymia.lugh: points 2.07, score 22.81, rank 16/47 (--)
23:37:37 <Lymia> Going to leave it at that. Have stuff to attend to.
23:38:08 <Lymia> ais523: messy as hell, but. Rank #16 fast poke with minimal defenses: https://github.com/Lymia/JoustExt/blob/master/examples/lugh.jx
23:38:17 <Lymia> Probably a lot of little room for improvement I've missed.
23:39:54 <ais523> at some point, a minimally defended fast poke turns into a weird sort of fast rush program
23:42:05 * ais523 vaguely wonders whether fast rush has ever been good
23:42:43 <ais523> the poke/fast-rush hybrids can be / have been
23:43:01 <Lymia> It repairs its own flags only once, after the poke.
23:43:09 <Lymia> Doesn't even repair flag, but sets decoys.
23:43:18 <Lymia> And they're in the 10-20 range, so... definitely a kind of fast rush.
23:44:07 <ais523> flag repair is a strategy that wasn't used much in the past but seems to be a core part of modern BF Joust, both in and against fast rush programs
23:44:40 <Lymia> (Its main "gimmick" is a routine that bets that it's standing on the flag with the first big decoy it finds)
23:44:54 <Lymia> (And it executes a massive reverse offset clear)
23:45:02 <Lymia> (Well, big cell I should say*)
23:45:10 <ais523> that's standard in fast pokes and on short tapes, I think
23:45:42 <ais523> e.g. ash does that if it detects clashing decoy setups
23:46:56 <ais523> well, if it detects that the second tape element is disturbed, that's the only cell it checks for fast rushes and clashing decoys
23:47:13 <salpynx> i was struggling with the MIT license, indicating what is source and what is compiled output is tricky, and trying to highlight changes to both source and output
23:47:17 <ais523> the third tape element is checked for activity, much later, as an anti-passive-defender mechanism
23:47:50 <Lymia> salpynx: Go ahead and treat it as CC0 if you'd like. XD
23:49:01 <salpynx> thx :) not sure MIT had generated bf code in mind when they created their software license...
23:49:58 <salpynx> ... I've just seen how my drawing program can distinguish polarity flip and hopefully draw the same image together... i need a break tho
23:50:10 <Lymia> ais523: Next thing I want to try is another try at an evolver. I have a basic idea of how to approach it a second time with a few more years general programming experience, heh. :p
23:51:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143988&oldid=142287 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+43)
23:56:59 <salpynx> just noticed my 1337 program is doing ok now, it had almost dropped. It literally does not attack, it sets a decoys in the adjacent cell and defends the flag
00:02:39 <Lymia> Basic idea is to break down programs into cascades of behaviors. Each behavior is just BFJoust code with some extra op codes. "End behavior" and "Jump to behavior". Then a few manually written ones for basic strategies like timer clears.
00:03:13 <Lymia> It reflects well how it seems current programs are written in practice.
00:04:01 <Lymia> And I'm hoping a few extra features can give an evolver the kick it needs to make effective programs.
00:05:13 <Lymia> (behaviors are ordered and cannot call previous behaviors in the order. That way the output length off potentially exponential, but still bounded. Can just reject code that is too long early and give excess length a big fitness penalty)
00:06:24 <Lymia> (can also name them with vectors, so that there's a good way to have a "named" jump that can be gradually evolved and just hit the nearest behavior that matches)
00:06:51 <Lymia> No idea if it'll work, but, will just have to see.
00:15:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143989&oldid=143988 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-39)
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01:34:48 <int-e> shachaf: well this is curious: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bee-bug.png
01:36:28 <shachaf> I mean, the file name is a hint.
01:37:54 <int-e> I saw a comment that the final scene has an easter egg. This happens if you undo to the start of the level afterwards.
01:39:25 <shachaf> Is that the one where you do home right as you activate the ending?
01:39:32 <int-e> Also there are at least two ways to flip that switch which is funny.
01:39:40 <int-e> shachaf: yeah that's the one
01:39:55 <shachaf> Hmm, the one I used was size+flower
01:40:03 <int-e> It's the only room with an off-center home and it isn't reset properly on reset.
01:40:20 <int-e> which makes no sense but it worked.
01:43:59 <int-e> Anyway, I still have three trophies left. No progress there...
01:53:03 <int-e> (I guess it's two more since I had last updated https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bee-magic.png )
03:48:07 <shachaf> int-e: OK, I brought myself to the same state as you, on this computer.
03:48:26 <shachaf> I don't think I've solved any of these three?
04:15:57 <shachaf> int-e: Ugh, OK, I think I've figured out how to do fire/flip/size, but I may have locked myself out of it this run.
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07:33:30 <b_jonas> "range of possible tape lengths needs to be larger" => if you want that in that future bfjoust successor, you should also consider making the modulus for tape cell values smaller than 256. it's currently 256 mostly because of the origins from Brainfuck.
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07:39:34 <b_jonas> “‘MIT license’ is ambiguous” => the lazy short disambiguation is “X11 license”
07:39:47 <b_jonas> there's only one of those, isn't there?
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07:42:39 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143990&oldid=143565 * Yayimhere * (+21) /* esolangs */
07:52:43 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143991&oldid=140318 * Yayimhere * (+228) /* Syntax */
07:54:54 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143992&oldid=143991 * Yayimhere * (+48) /* Syntax */
07:57:11 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143993&oldid=143992 * Yayimhere * (+12) /* Syntax */
08:53:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Mwwv]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143994 * Ractangle * (+165) Created page with "~~~"
08:59:11 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143995&oldid=143978 * Ractangle * (+146) /* Rewritten 4ME */
09:09:51 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143996&oldid=143995 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Commands */
09:14:17 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143997&oldid=143996 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Commands */
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12:09:09 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again18]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143998 * PrySigneToFry * (+1589) Created page with "Translated ORK/Mihai Again14|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">roothL? HH< u$P H$? A? H$HH$@H$? L$8L? H$0AH$(L$ HXL D HhHH DUWAVHH H?%y H3L3? 33HL D t..."
12:09:23 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again18]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143999&oldid=143998 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
12:10:03 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144000&oldid=143979 * PrySigneToFry * (+78)
12:10:16 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again18]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144001&oldid=143999 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
12:10:59 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144002&oldid=143982 * PrySigneToFry * (+76)
12:15:21 <esolangs> [[V'ger]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144003 * Yayimhere * (+769) Created page with "'''V'ger''' is an [[Matrioshka language]] created by [[User:Yayimhere]] inspired by V'ger (voyager 1) from the first startrek movie == syntax/semantics == the program is made up of two parts. the ''voyager'', and the ''universe'': [voyager|universe] the voyagers syntax
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12:52:29 <esolangs> [[Comment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144004&oldid=143911 * Ractangle * (+68) /* Normal 4ME */
12:53:15 <esolangs> [[Hum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144005&oldid=143782 * Ractangle * (-8)
12:53:54 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144006&oldid=143783 * Ractangle * (+1)
12:54:21 <esolangs> [[Till thirty first]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144007&oldid=143021 * Ractangle * (-12)
12:54:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[Till thirty first]] to [[AREA]] over redirect
12:54:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[AREA]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Till thirty first]]"
12:58:33 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144010&oldid=142952 * Ractangle * (-1) /* A+B Problem */
12:58:55 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144011&oldid=142927 * Ractangle * (-1) /* How dare you fuck the brain */
13:13:20 <esolangs> [[STRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144012&oldid=143964 * Froginstarch * (+155)
13:26:18 <esolangs> [[Bash: foo: No such file or directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144013&oldid=135360 * PrySigneToFry * (+16)
13:26:33 <esolangs> [[Bash: foo: No such file or directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144014&oldid=144013 * PrySigneToFry * (+5)
13:35:35 <esolangs> [[Pastebin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144015&oldid=131171 * MihaiEso * (+45) /* Interpreters */
13:35:49 <esolangs> [[Pastebin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144016&oldid=144015 * MihaiEso * (-2) /* Interpreters */
13:42:43 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again18]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144017&oldid=144001 * MihaiEso * (+42)
13:49:30 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again15]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144018 * MihaiEso * (+1793) Created page with "Translated ORK/PSTF Again18|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">You are not good at all, system is brute force-attacked by a hacker;KmXV(XV>aIlG(RJdG3_\YTw\Ez 8P9WBI6>\n/ptyhXo=7BFS{&QSmFb..."
13:49:58 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144019&oldid=144018 * MihaiEso * (+8)
13:50:59 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144020&oldid=144002 * MihaiEso * (+78) /* Horribly translated variants */
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14:02:25 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144021&oldid=143505 * MihaiEso * (+0) /* List of my esolangs */
14:06:56 <esolangs> [[PythBrSc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144022&oldid=143567 * MihaiEso * (+24) /* Golfed */
14:32:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144023&oldid=142797 * PrySigneToFry * (+102)
14:32:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144024&oldid=144023 * PrySigneToFry * (-102)
14:34:39 <esolangs> [[Lol waht i cant edit talk pages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144025&oldid=143530 * PrySigneToFry * (+36)
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15:15:03 <esolangs> [[SKR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144026&oldid=143930 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Examples */
15:15:28 <esolangs> [[User:Alidonis12/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144027&oldid=125162 * Alidonis12 * (+78) Created link to new stub for garbage.net, a new esolangs I will actually finish this time
15:16:05 <esolangs> [[User:Alidonis12/sandbox/garbagenet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144028 * Alidonis12 * (+96) Created page with "It's currently in a document on my desktop, I'll make a wiki article when I finish it this time."
15:17:35 <esolangs> [[User:Alidonis12/sandbox/casm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144029&oldid=130125 * Alidonis12 * (+129)
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16:50:03 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144030&oldid=143916 * PkmnQ * (+50) Almost a valid transformed _
16:50:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144031&oldid=143974 * PkmnQ * (+288)
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17:54:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bogdan192848 * New user account
17:58:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144032&oldid=143986 * Bogdan192848 * (+162) /* Introductions */
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18:08:54 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144033&oldid=144030 * PkmnQ * (+24)
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18:39:08 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144034&oldid=143997 * Ractangle * (+34) /* Commands */
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18:58:21 <fizzie> Bah, the repo-browser has stopped functioning again.
19:00:33 <fizzie> "connect() to unix:/run/uwsgi/hackeso-hgweb.socket failed (111: Connection refused)". But why.
19:01:07 <fizzie> "Listen: /run/uwsgi/hackeso-hgweb.socket (Stream)", "Active: active (listening)" says systemctl.
19:01:27 <fizzie> This would be easier if it was just on all the time, instead of having to be fancy systemd socket activation thing.
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19:25:03 <esolangs> [[4ME]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144035&oldid=144034 * Ractangle * (+20) /* Arguments */
19:58:22 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144036 * Ractangle * (+468) Created page with "This is basicly where i plan out my programing moves. This page is alowed to be edited by me only Make sure to have contents openend if this gets too long ==An actual APL-like language== NOTE:[[LJAPL]] is techincaly not an APL-like language since it uses
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19:59:18 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144037&oldid=144036 * Ractangle * (+0) /* An actual APL-like language */
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20:53:30 <esolangs> [[V'ger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144038&oldid=144003 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) Stub, Voyager number, categories
21:06:35 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144039&oldid=144037 * Ractangle * (+192) /* An actual APL-like language */
21:06:59 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144040&oldid=144039 * Ractangle * (+23)
21:14:27 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144041&oldid=144040 * Ractangle * (+79) /* An actual APL-like language */
21:15:23 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144042&oldid=144041 * Ractangle * (+18) /* An actual APL-like language */
21:18:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144043&oldid=143912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+328) /* So wait */ Reply
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23:18:03 <salpynx> fizzie: is bfjoust/report.txt version controlled? I was hoping to plot out the ranking changes over time, and get a feel for how score has changed over time. I thought i could get this from hill commits, but it only has the warriors
23:26:19 <fizzie> Unfortunately it's not. I guess technically you could recreate it from the commits, but it would involve re-running the games.
23:47:05 <salpynx> I'll look into getting chainlance running locally and see. Not as simple as running back through the the commit history and just reading the scores, but maybe a more interesting project
23:50:51 <fizzie> The tool I use for the hill is `gearlanced`, which is specifically intended for hill-style use, in that it keeps a cached copy of N pre-parsed "left" programs in memory, and can then quickly test a single new "right" program against all of them.
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23:57:29 <Lymia> Do you have benchmarks or similar on how many programs you need before torquelance starts beating out gearlance
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00:06:44 <fizzie> I've definitely done *some* (fairly rudimentary) benchmarking, but the results were probably just mentioned on the channel informally over the years. Though if memory serves, torquelance does not in fact ever outperform gearlance, even disregarding the AoT compilation time.
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01:20:36 <Lymia> afaik wrenchlance does have a point, but that's, uh.
01:20:47 <Lymia> A "hill" of every unique BFJoust program that's ever existed on any hill.
01:20:50 <Lymia> So upwards of 10000.
01:21:01 <Lymia> I haven't formally tested that though.
01:33:27 <Lymia> 45s for gearlance on everything for a single bot. torquelance: ~3m for compiling everything. 43s on everything.
01:35:08 <Lymia> I was looking into making a Rust crate that has a compiled-in version of either gearlance or wrenchlance.
01:35:14 <fizzie> Well, maybe. I mean, yes, it had a theoretical point, I just don't recall it in practice working that well.
01:42:31 <fizzie> Just to make sure you've seen it, there's also the genelance binary. It's the same execution engine as gearlance, but with a different interface: it pre-parses a fixed set of opponents (so I guess in your case your 10k program hill), and then can test multiple bots against that set without having to re-parse the predefined opponents over and over again.
01:44:54 <Lymia> Your build script is broken, btw.
01:44:58 <Lymia> It dumps genelance to a.out
01:45:39 <fizzie> Oh, it's missing an `-o`.
01:46:00 <fizzie> For some really obscure reason I switched to Bazel for the "canonical" build system.
01:47:40 <fizzie> (And it probably doesn't even work with the current version of Bazel because it was quite a long time ago.)
01:47:59 <Lymia> !ztest huh (>++>--)*2(>)*7(->[-[+-+]])*21
01:47:59 <zemhill> Lymia.huh: points -22.74, score 7.41, rank 47/47
01:48:06 <Lymia> Mystery parse errors. -w-
01:52:40 <Lymia> Yeah, genelance is clearly the best approach here out of what I've tested.
01:55:56 <Lymia> Wrenchlance is a small 10% improvement over genelance at that point.
01:55:59 <Lymia> Faster, but not by very much.
02:11:59 <Lymia> https://github.com/fis/chainlance/pull/2/files
02:12:19 <Lymia> Have a small changeset. genelance was not closing the files it opened and made a fd leak that crashed it on very large hills.
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04:46:00 <esolangs> [[SETANDCOUNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144044&oldid=143343 * Cycwin * (+457)
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08:14:15 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144045&oldid=144042 * Ractangle * (+48) /* An actual APL-like language */
08:28:16 <Lymia> fizzie: quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust vs web.ais523_ash.bfjoust has different behavior on egojoust and zemhill.
08:28:22 <Lymia> zemhill : <<XXXXX>XXXXX>XXXXXXX ><>>XXX>XXX>XX>X>>X>X -8
08:28:22 <Lymia> egojsout: <<XXXXX>XXXXX>XXXXXXX ><>>XXX>XXX>XXXX>>XXX -6
08:29:08 <Lymia> Detected this while I was extending the test set with modern programs for a modified gearlance for use as a Rust library.
08:31:27 <Lymia> Dunno why; still investigating. It's definitely caused by web.ais523_ash.bfjoust.
08:43:49 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144046&oldid=143847 * Ractangle * (-10) /* Esolangs */
08:46:48 <Lymia> The behaviors diverge on cycles 751-752 of tape length 29, reversed polarity.
08:47:03 <Lymia> I strongly suspect egojsout is in the wrong here.
08:47:29 <Lymia> It's showing Ash's IP on a `)%-1` opcode, which is clearly not somewhere the instruction pointer should be.
08:53:41 <Lymia> Oh, Ash has some complex `{}` nesting going on. That's probably the cause.
08:53:47 <Lymia> Still looking around, though.
08:57:38 <Lymia> egojsout's behavior here is wack. It's somehow jumping to an completely unrelated loop. Not an issue in chainlance.
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09:07:00 <Lymia> the minimum repo is depressingly simple.
09:07:56 <Lymia> When `[]` skips over the `{}` of a repeat loop in egojsout, somehow the `)*-1` takes a cycle when it should not.
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09:26:53 <Lymia> egojsout' assembly for ()%-1 outputs "PSTART [body of loop] PEND MINUS" on the assumption that it doesn't matter anyways with an infinite loop, I guess.
09:27:10 <Lymia> So in any construct that results in it reaching the end of an "infinite" loop (i.e. because of a skipped {}), it executes the minus. As an opcode.
09:31:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[LJAPL]] to [[Array?]]
09:41:21 <esolangs> [[Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144049&oldid=144047 * Ractangle * (-508)
09:41:35 <esolangs> [[Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144050&oldid=144049 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Implementation */
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09:56:56 <Lymia> It'll still break i believe with ()%+1, but, whatever, that's not something anyone'll ever do, lol.
09:57:07 <Lymia> Added a patch for that in the PR.
10:09:01 <b_jonas> I don't understand, isn't egojoust a hill that's no longer active, and was part of EgoBot which is basically dead? how does it come into this? are you trying to reproduce saved results available from it?
10:13:15 <Lymia> egojsout is still used to generate the test cases for chainlance, and moreover, it's the engine used for the joust animations on zemhill's website.
10:13:42 <Lymia> So, egojsout bugs will still cause issues when the zemhill evaluation doesn't match what happens when you open the match on the website and watch what happens.
10:15:28 <Lymia> If someone was feeling malicious, they could intentionally exploit this to make a bot that behaves completely differently on the previews on the zemhill website and the actual hill, with completely different results.
10:15:58 <Lymia> `>([{}])%-1[a]b` will execute a on the web viewer and b on the actual hill.
10:16:00 <HackEso> >([{}])%-1[a]b`? No such file or directory
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10:27:22 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144051&oldid=144045 * Ractangle * (-50) /* An actual APL-like language */
10:27:46 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144052&oldid=144051 * Ractangle * (-61) /* An actual APL-like language */
10:29:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ractangle/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144053 * Ractangle * (+31) Created page with "==An actual APL-like language=="
10:31:24 <Lymia> https://github.com/Lymia/oxygenlance
10:31:27 <Lymia> Was working on this all day. :p
10:31:54 <Lymia> Modified version of gearlance that's thread-safe, a library, and has a binding to Rust.
10:40:14 <Lymia> Needed something like it anyways for the evolver idea I had, so may as well as make it a library.
10:43:11 <b_jonas> make sure to link it from the wiki
10:49:34 <esolangs> [[Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144054&oldid=144050 * Ractangle * (+55) /* Commands */
10:52:14 <int-e> shachaf: Okay, I figured out the remaining spell combinations in Bee Magic. Yay.
10:55:32 <esolangs> [[Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144055&oldid=144054 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Implementation */
11:06:42 <Lymia> Links on the bf joust page need updatingi n general tbh
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11:51:02 <esolangs> [[Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144056&oldid=144055 * Ractangle * (+107) /* Commands */
11:57:02 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144057&oldid=144020 * PrySigneToFry * (-140) "Translated ORK" series is listed to be can't hold on.
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12:04:43 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again19]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144058 * PrySigneToFry * (+1653) Created page with "Translated ORK/Mihai Again15|<span style="font-family:Unifont;"> ?)P?B 3{ PA 3{(;? |*W$A ? +??PQV@ RA $ $3sv ? ?1$@;l$ ;C r[<? W?A 3?PQU@ R@ $..."
12:05:20 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144059&oldid=144019 * PrySigneToFry * (+78)
12:06:18 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144060&oldid=144057 * PrySigneToFry * (+43)
12:22:14 <esolangs> [[SETANDCOUNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144061&oldid=144044 * Cycwin * (+21)
12:23:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:A=B]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144062 * Monochromeninja * (+1093) Add interpreter
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12:30:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:Monochromeninja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144063&oldid=117013 * Monochromeninja * (+446) /* Help on Project Euler problem 10 implementation */
12:35:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:Monochromeninja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144064&oldid=144063 * Monochromeninja * (+447) /* Help on Project Euler problem 10 implementation */
12:38:20 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/10]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144065&oldid=117012 * Monochromeninja * (+36) Changed disclaimer
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13:08:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144066&oldid=143977 * PrySigneToFry * (+16)
13:10:56 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144067&oldid=143128 * PrySigneToFry * (+56)
13:13:43 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144068&oldid=142583 * PrySigneToFry * (+19)
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13:23:33 <esolangs> [[Unmatched (]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144069&oldid=142774 * PrySigneToFry * (+73)
13:23:52 <esolangs> [[Unmatched (]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144070&oldid=144069 * PrySigneToFry * (+3)
13:30:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144071&oldid=142768 * PrySigneToFry * (+637) /* You're such a clown */ new section
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14:47:02 <esolangs> [[Array?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144072&oldid=144056 * Ractangle * (+29) /* Commands */
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15:36:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144073&oldid=144071 * Ractangle * (-20) /* grade 2pi+0.01(Translate by PSTF: 6.3) */
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17:36:38 <wWwwW> what compclass could this/does this have?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hostile_snakes
17:36:54 <wWwwW> also for you korvo
17:37:06 <wWwwW> i made this cuz i got the idea when listening to a song lol
17:38:05 <korvo> wWwwW: Write an interpreter first. If that turns out to be impossible, then it's uncomputable.
17:54:35 <wWwwW> i cant do it without help
18:07:46 <korvo> wWwwW: What have you tried so far?
18:08:04 <wWwwW> not for this specific but for many others
18:08:33 <wWwwW> also idk how to do 2D
18:11:10 <korvo> 2D arrays are done with index arithmetic and 1D arrays.
18:11:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Bogdan192848 * uploaded "[[File:Scratchcode.png]]"
18:12:20 <korvo> Like, if you would have `arr[x][y]` to do a 2D array lookup, you can instead do it like `arr[x * k + y]`, where k is the width of the 2D rows (the "stride").
18:12:25 <wWwwW> idk hhow matricese work
18:12:42 <wWwwW> thx for thast formula
18:12:43 <korvo> Matrices are done the same way.
18:12:49 <wWwwW> if just python was easy
18:12:54 <wWwwW> maybe ill be able to do it
18:13:00 <korvo> Python *is* easy. What have you tried so far?
18:13:21 <wWwwW> it will take time but
18:13:28 <wWwwW> ill do it at some point
18:18:08 <korvo> In Python, you can actually have 2D dicts. They aren't necessarily efficient, but you can address a dict like `d[x, y]`.
18:19:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Bogdan192848 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Scratchcode.png]]"
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18:40:20 <esolangs> [[Alan's dead fish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144076 * Bogdan192848 * (+649) Created page with "(This is my first esolang, please note any mistakes.) Alan's dead fish is an esolang make by [[User:Bogdan192848]] based on [[Deadfish]]. It has the same command set as Deadfish, but with 2 new commands: *"!": If the accumulator isnt 0, jump to the next !
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18:45:50 <esolangs> [[A=B]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144077&oldid=108721 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) Categories
18:48:15 <esolangs> [[Alan's dead fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144078&oldid=144076 * Ractangle * (-2)
18:49:15 <esolangs> [[Alan's dead fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144079&oldid=144078 * Ractangle * (+33)
18:50:43 <esolangs> [[Alan's dead fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144080&oldid=144079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+77) Remove incorrect computational class, add categories
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19:49:37 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again16]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=144081 * MihaiEso * (+1879) Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again18|<span style="font-family:Unifont;">Giga Bom-omb of machine translation, shutting down now and destroying our PC#yq3t"ul=~]P"K<~qqU51iX7*g6=,/18,TZ,9dG:thC{{UROJLqMRQnySG6ucJ,N@4..."
19:50:04 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again16]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144082&oldid=144081 * MihaiEso * (+4)
19:50:49 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again19]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144083&oldid=144058 * MihaiEso * (+42)
19:52:17 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144084&oldid=144060 * MihaiEso * (+45) /* Horribly translated variants */
21:05:57 <esolangs> [[Bleh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144085&oldid=126933 * Ashli Katt * (+39) Clarify the existence of `_` as a valid pattern
21:13:50 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144086&oldid=143915 * Ractangle * (+9) /* MarkupL add-ons */
21:15:37 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144087&oldid=144086 * Ractangle * (+0) /* MarkupL add-ons */
21:16:10 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144088&oldid=144087 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Cat program */
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21:20:13 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144089&oldid=144088 * Ractangle * (+172) /* MarkupL syntax */
21:21:44 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144090&oldid=144089 * Ractangle * (+0) /* MarkupL add-ons */
21:22:05 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144091&oldid=144090 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Cat program */
21:22:43 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144092&oldid=107573 * Corbin * (+456) Document new primitives.
21:24:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Rubic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144093&oldid=124300 * Digital Hunter * (+266)
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22:10:10 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144094&oldid=144091 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Cat program */
22:14:54 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144095&oldid=144094 * Ractangle * (+3) /* Cat program */
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22:17:53 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144096&oldid=144095 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world */
22:26:18 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144097&oldid=143948 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Using a wrong type in a variable */
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23:05:00 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again16]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144098&oldid=144082 * MihaiEso * (+33)
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23:08:19 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again16]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144099&oldid=144098 * MihaiEso * (+0)
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00:10:40 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144100&oldid=143561 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2) /* commands */
00:11:47 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144101&oldid=144100 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+8) /* commands */
01:19:00 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again16]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144102&oldid=144099 * MihaiEso * (+24)
01:57:36 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144103&oldid=143790 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+205)
01:58:01 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144104&oldid=144103 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+24)
01:58:31 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144105&oldid=144104 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-2)
01:58:54 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144106&oldid=144105 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1) /* Cool extenstion */
01:59:04 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144107&oldid=144106 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-2) /* Cool extenstion */
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02:11:25 <esolangs> [[ABPLWNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144108&oldid=132155 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+38)
02:11:34 <esolangs> [[ABPLWNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144109&oldid=144108 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2)
02:14:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144110&oldid=144024 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+536)
02:14:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144111&oldid=144110 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+66)
02:14:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144112&oldid=144111 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+2)
02:33:22 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144113&oldid=144092 * Corbin * (+150) /* 2024 Primitives */ "Weak" is such a weird way to say "associative".
02:48:50 <esolangs> [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again16]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144114&oldid=144102 * MihaiEso * (+33)
03:06:23 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Syntagma]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144115&oldid=136265 * Salpynx * (+161) add spoiler text, in case i forget what this is supposed to be
03:19:54 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Syntagma]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=144116&oldid=144115 * Salpynx * (+28) /* Syntax */ strikeout