00:02:20 <esolangs> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83099&oldid=83049 * AndrewBayly * (-3751) /* Main */
00:02:46 <esolangs> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83100&oldid=83099 * AndrewBayly * (+1) /* Main */
00:03:45 <fizzie> Oh, right, actually the UTC midnight was just now. Forgot about BST.
00:04:13 <b_jonas> oh... I didn't pay attention to that, yes
00:04:41 <int-e> ozone is fighting it out with chanserv, now there's a sight
00:07:47 <fizzie> Weird. The version of the bot I built on buster segfaults, but the one built on my daily-driver desktop (sid) doesn't.
00:07:55 <fizzie> I built it with Bazel, that's not supposed to happen. ;)
00:08:15 <fizzie> At least it's reproducible, so hopefully I can figure it out.
00:08:26 <int-e> "that was not supposed to happen" is a great candidate for famous last words
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00:11:47 <fizzie> It dies in std::thread::detach(). The system's almost entirely a single-threaded event loop, but there's one thread spawned to handle making blocking getaddrinfo calls, because I thought bundling an external DNS resolver like c-ares would be overkill.
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00:15:13 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/-eHB.txt looks p. mysterious. What's that `call 0x0` doing there?
00:16:30 <esolangs> [[User:Icecream17/Arbitrary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83101 * Icecream17 * (+512) Created page with "'''Icecream17/Arbitrary''' is ridiculous The following is subject to change {| class="wikitable" |+ Static programs |- ! Bits !! Hexadecimal source code !! What the source c..."
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00:20:11 <fizzie> The context for the call is `std::thread(<function pointer>, <argument>).detach();`, which I at least naively thought would just mean "start an independent thread running that function".
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00:22:26 <chibi> Oh, Libera does ## instead of #?
00:22:45 <fizzie> By my interpretation, we *should* have been ##esoteric on freenode as well.
00:23:09 <keegan> yeah, Freenode had a bunch of channels grandfathered into single-# names
00:23:22 <keegan> although you could argue that #esoteric was the official channel of the open source esolang wiki
00:23:33 <keegan> just like how #trains is the official channel of trainbot
00:24:04 <int-e> keegan: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future has some thoughts in that direction
00:24:10 <fizzie> I seem to recall someone kind of hinted we should think about migrating to ##esoteric on freenode, but we never bothered.
00:24:35 <fizzie> On the Libera policies page, I saw there's this new category of "community channels", between project channels and informal channels.
00:24:48 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, that's what we say the official policy is because there's a rare case when people when squat a #-channel and staff takes it over for the project with the relevant name for searchability, and we want to have something to back it up. they don't actually mind #-channels when they don't cause trouble like that, but they can't say that officially.
00:25:17 <b_jonas> any long-established #-channel that doesn't steal namespace is fine
00:25:37 <fizzie> As far as Libera goes, I think a "community channel" would be the reasonable designation for this one as the official community channel of esolangs.org, but `#esolangs` would IMO be a more reasonable name than `#esoteric`.
00:25:40 <int-e> b_jonas: I think they care when they have visibility, like #math which was basically forced to become ##math
00:25:41 <fizzie> (Despite the history.)
00:25:57 <example> yea, #esolangs would make more sense at this point
00:26:06 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, #math is stealing prime namespace, it's a channel name that people will type in even without outside references
00:26:15 <int-e> #esoteric, yeah, is probably small enough nobody cares. Also the attitude has probably shifted quite a bit over the years.
00:26:32 <b_jonas> and it's a big channel with occasional drama
00:26:56 <fizzie> ISRT that also happened to ##java, which makes sense, because it's both obvious and having it as #java implies it's associated with whoever owns Java at the moment (Oracle?).
00:27:10 <b_jonas> #esoteric isn't. a few people from the other type of esoterica did find their way in, and some of them were probably genuine rather than sockpuppets trying to make fun of the welcome message
00:27:25 <int-e> b_jonas: I really think #math became ##math mainly to set an example. Any project claiming that name would have to deal with people who wanted to just discuss (talk *about*) math.
00:27:48 <example> pls don't set me. (lemme change my nick back)
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00:28:57 <b_jonas> is there any kind of namespace continuity implied?
00:29:04 <b_jonas> I mean from freenode to libera
00:29:10 <b_jonas> or is it considered new domain?
00:29:16 <moony> uh, new domain afaik
00:31:37 <fizzie> In other news, IDGI. When I build it on that other system, the binary contains https://0x0.st/-eHS.txt as the implementation of std::thread::detach -- when I build it on this one, it just gets a PLT entry <std::thread::detach()@plt> referring to <std::thread::detach()@GLIBCXX_3.4.11>.
00:33:35 <int-e> so the dynamic linker messes up?
00:34:00 <int-e> ..wtf is that google thing doing in there
00:34:22 <fizzie> I think that's just a random symbol that happened to end up associated with address 0 for whatever reason.
00:35:28 <int-e> right, makes sense, sort of
00:35:49 <fizzie> But I don't know how it manages to get a "call 0" in there. Maybe I'll need to look at some intermediate files.
00:37:40 <fizzie> Oh, there *is* a difference in the BUILD files: the working one has commented out features = ["fully_static_link"].
00:37:54 <fizzie> That sounds odd enough that it's probably what's screwing it up.
00:38:27 <fizzie> Though I've no recollection of why that's there in the first place.
00:41:36 <fizzie> Let's give it a whirl.
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00:42:05 <chibi> fizzie: Is #java a place for coffee discussions?
00:42:37 <fizzie> After two years or so of punting it until later, I can finally produce a new binary that works. (Well, assuming it does.)
00:44:30 <b_jonas> chibi: is Java coffee actually such a thing? because I'm quite sure I hadn't heard about that until the Java language people started to spread that origin story. I think they invented that to have a cool explanation for their name like Python.
00:45:25 <fizzie> Java the Indonesian island definitely predates Java the programming language, and is associated with coffee.
00:45:52 <fizzie> Wouldn't know any of the details, though, not being a coffee-ist.
00:46:27 <fizzie> Have I mentioned our team's hybrid coffee/tea break is called a "toffee break", but never has any toffee involved?
00:46:37 <b_jonas> the indonesian island does, yes
00:46:59 <chibi> Apparently so, though my knowledge of coffee extends to how to brew good coffee in a pot and that's about it
00:48:12 <chibi> I've never really had toffee, what's it taste like?
00:49:13 <int-e> fizzie: that 0x0 may be __gthrw_pthread_create, which is a /weak/ reference to pthread_create... which might stay 0 if you "forget" to link in pthreads?
00:49:38 <fizzie> It's a bit like fudge and caramel.
00:50:23 <int-e> (I'm looking at /usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu/c++/10/bits/gthr-default.h)
00:50:59 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah, I think it must've been something about that fully_static_link thing, which I've reconstructed to having been an attempt to produce a binary that I could runs while I didn't have a system with exactly-matching library versions as the target machine big enough to run the build.
00:51:05 <fizzie> Guessing it just wasn't pthreads-compatible.
00:52:04 <chibi> Ooh, maybe that'd be nice to pair with some black coffee
00:52:37 <fizzie> https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/42057 sounds potentially related.
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01:13:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CiaaiK * New user account
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02:12:44 <esolangs> [[Finites at Fredy's]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83102 * Salpynx * (+4732) This was _supposed_ to be a parody, but has become more of an uninspiring, but accurate, review. "Fair use" either way.
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03:52:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83103&oldid=82807 * New Army * (-63) The link doesn't seem to be dead.
03:54:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83104&oldid=83098 * New Army * (+187) /* LifeWiki links */
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05:15:52 <arseniiv> hi let this day be nice to everyone!
05:19:51 <shachaf> Confectionery is neatomatic 4,000.
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06:09:57 <jinn> hello is this the compilier design channel from freenode?
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08:29:16 <esolangs> [[Spider solitaire]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83105&oldid=83032 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+31)
08:45:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83106&oldid=83104 * Int-e * (+189) /* LifeWiki links */
09:22:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83107&oldid=83106 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+237) /* LifeWiki links */
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11:36:09 <fizzie> Actually, we've never had +t (or problem with "unauthorized" topic changes either), that was just a default setting. Let's get rid of that.
11:36:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
11:36:16 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -t.
11:36:20 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o FireFly.
11:36:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
11:36:29 <fizzie> (Tab completion strikes again.)
11:54:18 <int-e> Oh, -t is allowed? It failed in #esoteric yesterday, somehow...
11:59:05 <fizzie> You need to "chanserv set #chan mlock" from the default (+nt-lk) to something that either doesn't mention t, or has -t. I just set it to +n-lk.
12:06:09 <fizzie> Trying to manage all these channels in one client is a bit of a headache. Only one of my lurking set (#perl) has entirely moved. A couple others just set up forks.
12:13:49 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83108&oldid=83067 * Batata * (-9)
12:14:51 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83109&oldid=83108 * Batata * (+12)
12:15:19 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83110&oldid=83109 * Batata * (-3)
12:16:51 <int-e> fizzie: did I mention that I set up a separate shell account for tracking Libera channels :P
12:24:31 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83111&oldid=83110 * Batata * (+43)
12:25:55 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83112&oldid=83111 * Batata * (+14)
12:26:03 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83113&oldid=83112 * Batata * (-2)
12:41:09 <jinn> elliot and ion are u here in the new channel?
12:42:21 <int-e> jinn: try /who ##esoteric
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15:39:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83114&oldid=83107 * Taneb * (+360)
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15:48:30 <river> can we get an esoteric cloak?
15:48:35 <imode> goodbye, freenode, hello libera.
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15:55:42 <int-e> river: You'd need to find a Libera staffer who appreciates the joke.
15:56:08 <int-e> Sad as it is, fizzies boring esolang community idea is more likely to fly.
15:56:38 <int-e> (or esolangs, whatever)
15:57:50 <int-e> otoh who needs cloaks :P
15:58:14 <river> people without cool domain names
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16:14:53 <moony> get a cool domain name
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16:33:25 <fizzie> int-e: As a compromise solution, let's register a community with the boring name ("esolangs"), but include `#esoteric` in the list of claimed channel names, on the basis of historical precedent and discoverability.
16:33:46 <fizzie> In either case, I'd kind of give it a bit of time first to see how this Libera thing evolves, before starting a discussion with staffers. I feel like they might have better things to do at the moment, anyway.
16:35:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: I would mention that it's easier to register a channel and community on OFTC
16:36:40 <b_jonas> or more like, you don't have to register communities
16:36:43 <b_jonas> you can just register a channel
16:36:47 <b_jonas> mind you, that works on freenode too
16:37:06 <b_jonas> the whole group thing is just an official path to resolve namespace conflicts in single-flat-land
16:37:37 <b_jonas> OFTC doesn't bother with that
16:39:48 <fizzie> Yeah, I know; I don't think the difficulty is an issue, though. And I think there's something nice about having a claim that's not just "we were here first", though I don't have a rational reason for that feeling.
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17:14:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: does fungot have an command that a bot can use to request that fungot ignore it?
17:15:05 <b_jonas> or maybe a channel that the bot can join to request this?
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17:17:16 <fizzie> Unfortunately not. There's a single regular expression (matched against the message prefix) that defines the ignore list.
17:17:37 <fizzie> Not even persisted, I just re-apply it every time I restart it.
17:17:46 <fizzie> By grepping in my logs if it's fallen off the backscroll.
17:17:52 <fizzie> IOW, a highly productionized setup.
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18:45:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm... I might have to replace his invocation keyword then
18:46:45 <b_jonas> or just convince you to change that regex
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19:19:31 <fizzie> I'm happy to change that regex whenever. If it was written in a more reasonable language, I could also consider adding a feature to request being ignored, but as it stands it might be quite long before I'd get to that.
19:19:47 <fizzie> I should probably clean up that list anyway, it's got a lot of legacy cruft. It's currently:
19:19:50 <fizzie> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|HackEso|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot|otherbot|j-bot|esowiki|bfbot|egelbot)!
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20:48:09 <int-e> the table on https://libera.chat/guides/extbans makes my eyes hurt a bit
20:48:35 <int-e> (alternating between grey on white and white on grey for code spans)
20:52:11 <fizzie> Hmm, it's all light-on-dark for me, just slightly different shades. But I've got a prefer-dark thing going on, maybe it styles for that.
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21:05:58 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/alternate.png
21:06:10 <int-e> oh, dark theme, hmm
21:13:15 <fizzie> Well, it's not *that* dissimilar in the dark theme either. https://zem.fi/tmp/extbans.png
21:13:45 <fizzie> Got the same thing going where the code span color is the same as the background of the *other* row.
21:16:50 <int-e> I get the idea and the logic but my brain hurts ;)
21:17:46 <Taneb> I've just dropped my account with freenode nickserv and removed the config from my bouncer. Feels like an end of an era
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21:37:15 <arseniiv> shachaf: all of a sudden found your answer on SO about Fix, Mu and Nu in recursion-schemes. Thanks for writing it, clarified a great deal
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21:41:34 <arseniiv> hm is it obvious at first sight if μx. x + x and μx. μy. x + y are (naturally) isomorphic? Oh, nvm they are both empty
21:41:58 <arseniiv> (in the strict sense of course)
21:44:48 <int-e> arseniiv: you could use ux. 1+x+x and uxy. 1+x+y instead
21:44:59 <arseniiv> as for the general situation… The allows ⊥ and x1 + x2 inductively, but as μy. x + y allows only
21:47:18 <arseniiv> as for the general situation… The type A ≡ μx. x + x allows ⊥ and x1 + x2 for x1, x2 :: A inductively, but B ≡ μy. x + y allows only ⊥ and c + y for y :: B so for example (⊥ + ⊥) + ⊥ :: A and not :: B. Hehehe
21:49:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83115&oldid=83114 * Fizzie * (+1128) /* Freenode and the future */ Thoughts about networks.
21:50:21 <arseniiv> int-e: yep that’s an interesting elaboration on 1 + x which is precisely the direction I looked in. Now we have naturals with two successor kinds in the first case (and in case of conaturals, 2^N infinities) and in the second case…
21:51:22 <int-e> arseniiv: x is free in B, I'm confused
21:52:32 <arseniiv> I planned to write first about μy. x + y which I did but then I forgot I hadn’t written about the full thing
21:53:40 <arseniiv> (but still (⊥ + ⊥) + ⊥ shouldn’t inhabit μxy. x + y, if I’m correct)
21:55:48 <arseniiv> okay, μxy. 1 + x + y is of course just μx. N + x and that should give us… yep, again less possibilities: first we use just successors of the first kind and then just those other ones, no intermixing, so not naturally isomorphic with μx. 1 + x + x
21:56:08 <arseniiv> I wonder if these two types occur somewhere in practice
21:58:27 <arseniiv> for example conaturals are great for timeout values (like how many small-step evaluations we are allowed to take), even if encoded in a naïve way. That has some charm IMO
22:00:22 <arseniiv> also one could try something with 1 + (x, y) or (1 + x, 1 + y)
22:00:39 <int-e> arseniiv: let X = μx y. x + y, Y = μy. X + y; ⊥ inhabits X and Y, so ⊥ + ⊥ inhabits X, so (⊥ + ⊥) + ⊥ inhabits X.
22:04:52 <arseniiv> wait, that Y is something completely different
22:05:15 <int-e> Basically thinking of it as data A = A A B; data B = B A B vs. data C = C C C
22:05:50 <arseniiv> though would we even get to μx. x + x by applying this ΛX.Y repeatedly to X?
22:06:41 <arseniiv> int-e: but those datas are mutually recursive whereas X, Y aren’t
22:07:24 <int-e> arseniiv: X already does the full mutual recursion. Y just occurs in unfolding the outer fixed point.
22:09:53 <int-e> μx y. x + y = ⊥ | Y, Y = ⊥ | X + Y
22:10:05 <int-e> so I guess my datatypes aren't reflecting this accurately
22:11:04 <int-e> And there are two ways to get a bottom from μx y. ..., but we have no way of distinguishing them? Bottoms suck.
22:11:23 <int-e> μx y. 1 + x + y doesn't have that issue
22:12:36 <arseniiv> <int-e> And there are two ways to get a bottom from μx y. ..., but we have no way of distinguishing them? Bottoms suck. => though in the haskellization we should get different bottoms due to explicit wraps and unwraps, wouldn’t we?
22:13:05 <int-e> arseniiv: which is how I realized that my representation is wrong
22:14:05 <int-e> data A = A B; data B = B A B <-- it's more like this, and then you do get distinct _|_ and A _|_ before branching. Also, evidently, I'm doing a product instead of a sum.
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22:14:34 <int-e> data B = B1 A | B2 B
22:15:07 <arseniiv> I agree 1 + x + y and not concerning ourselves with ⊥-containing terms is clearer
22:15:21 <arseniiv> yep I hadn’t even see you did a product at the first time
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22:17:20 <int-e> There must be a bunch of papers about how this invalidates generic programming in Haskell ;)
22:19:37 <int-e> . o O ( The Haskell programmer's heaven is a bottom-less pit. )
22:19:43 <arseniiv> and it shows I wrote something incomprehensible about μxy. 1 + x + y being the same as μx. x + N :\
22:20:31 <arseniiv> int-e: I bet what many haskellers’ jokes are about is Just Nothing
22:20:45 <arseniiv> at least I can definitely say fix Just Nothing does what it says
22:20:52 <int-e> > fix error -- practical joke
22:20:54 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
22:21:36 <arseniiv> (it’s a bit unfair I came up with those two some half an hour earlier and just copied them here)
22:22:01 <arseniiv> yeah I remember fix error, I adviced it to several people
22:22:18 <arseniiv> I have it adviced to this time*
22:22:38 <ski> > fix show
22:22:39 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
22:22:58 <int-e> > iterate error "" -- kind of disappointing
22:22:59 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘[Expr]’
22:22:59 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘(a0 -> a0) -> a0’
22:23:54 <int-e> fix f = last $ iterate f undefined -- find the error
22:23:59 <ski> imho, escape characters ought not to be escaped, using themselves as indicator character
22:24:06 <arseniiv> I remember b_jonas saying something about rational escape syntax
22:24:45 <lambdabot> undefined = error "Prelude.undefined"
22:24:52 <int-e> (there's one error!)
22:25:05 <ski> GNU Screen gets this right. `^A' is the (default) escape character. to send a literal `^A' (e.g. to a nested session), you do `^Aa'. for two nested, you get `^Aaa'. linear instead of exponential
22:25:17 <ski> (iirc TMux does the same)
22:26:06 <int-e> . o O ( don't nest screens )
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22:27:09 <int-e> ^Aa is slightly less convenient at depth 1.
22:27:09 <ski> if `\' was escaped as `\/' (say), then `fix show' above would be `"\"\/"\//"\///"\////"..."'
22:27:24 <int-e> Also taking ^A away from readline is wrong.
22:27:30 <b_jonas> I might have said that I use \x5C all the time instead of \\
22:27:51 <b_jonas> and that I wish K&R set a simple letter escape to mean a backslash, like \s instead of \\
22:27:57 <b_jonas> so that we could have it standardized by now
22:28:05 <ski> (hard to avoid nesting Screens, when you have a mediate SSH (or `su', say))
22:28:07 <int-e> So... personally I'm going against the quoting efficiency with escape ^B^B
22:28:36 * ski normally uses `escape ^Zz'
22:28:44 <ski> (i don't suspend that often anyway)
22:29:10 <int-e> I suspend things a lot more than is healthy.
22:29:11 <ski> b_jonas : yes
22:29:27 <b_jonas> but as for screen, I use ^Qq , and in the rare case when I have two screens nested, one of them uses ^Qq and the other ^Aa
22:29:29 <ski> (using `escape ^Oo' as alternate)
22:29:40 <int-e> ^Z, less a file, forget about the background job... later that day, kill half a dozen pending jobs
22:30:09 <int-e> but there's also the banal ^Z; kill %1 trick that often works when ^C doesn't
22:31:10 <int-e> fungot: where are you and what's an idiosyncracy?
22:32:20 <b_jonas> I do admit that I decided Consumer Society has a less than ideal escape syntax, one that can cause leaning toothpick syndrome
22:32:34 <fizzie> Hmm, why didn't that work.
22:32:35 <ski> what's that ?
22:33:07 <ski> "Consumer Society" ?
22:33:11 <int-e> fizzie: well, no hackeso?
22:33:14 <fizzie> No, the `? freenode -- and I guess it's because HackEso is gone, but I'm not sure why.
22:33:31 <b_jonas> ski: it's an esolang I'm making, or one of a sibling pair of esolangs rather
22:33:36 <int-e> 08:10:45 --- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: lambdabot, HackEso, chibi
22:33:46 <int-e> so gone for ... 16 hours
22:33:58 <ski> how does its escaping work ?
22:34:18 <int-e> cause a netsplit, don't come back --> successful escape
22:34:43 <ski> chibi is a Scheme bot ?
22:35:04 <b_jonas> ski: won't tell yet, the details are not public, but it's one that expands exponentially if you try to nest it
22:35:05 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, it had a temporary network problem, but one that caused it to be immediately "connection refused"ing, and systemd went all "Start request repeated too quickly" and gave up.
22:35:05 <ski> oh, apparently not
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22:35:25 <ski> b_jonas : i'm sorry to hear :/
22:35:34 <fizzie> That was simple enough.
22:35:44 <int-e> fizzie: ah. I think lambdabot just sleeps for 3 minutes and tries again
22:35:50 <int-e> (well the loop that controls it)
22:37:09 <fizzie> I don't have fungot over on this side, though I guess I could. It wouldn't have the same shared "repository" (in terms of ^def and such), but OTOH those commands aren't really used much.
22:37:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: you don't have to, if you only have fungot on one side then you won't need to make it ignore the bridge
22:39:13 <b_jonas> fungot will work well that way because it's triggered by a keyword inside the line, pear tree style, unlike most bots that are triggered by a marking at the start of the message contents, so they should be present on all sides or have special code to accomodate the bridge
22:39:32 <b_jonas> yeah, there are caret commands where the trigger is at the start of a line
22:39:33 <lambdabot> int-e: Stop impersonating me, it's annoying!
22:40:05 <arseniiv> hm this gives me strange ideas
22:40:15 <b_jonas> yes, #esoteric tends to do that
22:40:49 <int-e> arseniiv: some sort of parse error
22:40:55 <int-e> > 2 + 2 maybe maybe?
22:40:56 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
22:40:57 <arseniiv> hm should have made “maybe maybe” a comment
22:41:18 <fizzie> Bridges are kind of awkward, but I guess there's the benefit that we might see a cross-network botloop.
22:41:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's why I asked about fungot's ignore facilities
22:41:51 <b_jonas> so the bot can ask fungot to ignore it
22:49:49 <fizzie> int-e: I'm sure that delay is something I could configure in the .service file. Probably by setting "RestartSec=...", because the log also says "Service RestartSec=100ms expired, scheduling restart" between the 6 attempts it made.
22:50:41 <int-e> fizzie: ah I don't know about that, I have a python script
22:51:45 <fizzie> I've been trying to be all modern.
22:52:48 <int-e> I have systemd units somewhere else, but nothing that actively connects over the network and has to try to be nice .
22:53:24 <fizzie> fungot I've got running in a screen that I just start completely manually. :)
22:59:10 <int-e> fizzie: why do it manually when you can do https://paste.debian.net/1198292/
23:00:08 <int-e> (the best part is where it sleeps for 0.3 seconds because `top` is so slow to start up)
23:01:09 <int-e> my lambdabot setup is *not* modern or nice
23:01:53 <b_jonas> none of my setups are modern
23:01:58 <b_jonas> I don't believe in modern stuff
23:02:34 <b_jonas> or at least I believe in only some modern stuff and not others
23:02:40 <int-e> fizzie: The thing is, I started out exactly as you described... set up screen, start the bot from inside screen
23:02:59 <int-e> fizzie: and over time I added more default screens, and then I got tired of doing it manually every reboot :)
23:03:29 <int-e> but the path of least resistance was to just keep the basic setup and automate it
23:03:55 <int-e> and by now the result is not safe for audiences outside of this channel
23:06:10 <int-e> and it's kind of useful for experimentation... if the socat needs tweaking I can ^C there and modify the command line
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01:06:37 <esolangs> [[3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83116 * AndrewBayly * (+936) Created page with "3 is an esoteric programming language which is a subset of JavaScript. In 3, every sequence of 3 consecutive character must contain at least one 3. ==Sample Programs== ===He..."
01:07:02 <esolangs> [[3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83117&oldid=83116 * AndrewBayly * (+1)
01:12:43 <chibi> ski: I'm not a bot, and unfortunately I don't know scheme either :P
01:13:28 <ski> yea, i realized
01:13:45 <ski> i just associated to the Chibi implementation of Scheme (by foof, iirc)
01:15:39 <int-e> little schemers...
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01:25:25 <chibi> Heh, maybe I should learn scheme
01:30:45 <esolangs> [[3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83118&oldid=83117 * AndrewBayly * (+82)
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07:05:56 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
07:08:08 <HackEso> 11515:2018-04-17 <wob_jonäs> forget ruin//ruin \ 11514:2018-04-17 <int-̈e> learn ruin//Ruin lies in ruins after a ruined ruination by Taneb.
07:08:58 <shachaf> Maybe int-e meant to use le/rn and it never happened.
07:10:17 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ for n; do if [ lethe = "$n" ]; then rm -f "$HACKENV/wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "$HACKENV/wisdom/$n"; fi && echo "Forget what?"; done
07:10:24 <HackEso> rm "$1" && { rmdir -p "$(dirname "$1")" 2>/dev/null; exit 0; }
07:11:04 <shachaf> i,i lecturer in recent ruins
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08:24:26 <int-e> shachaf: stranger things have happened
08:37:20 <int-e> shachaf: in context you probably ruined the joke for me, err I mean gently convinced me it wasn't worth it
10:44:11 <esolangs> [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83119&oldid=81196 * Int-e * (-66) Remove non-category, again. Sigh.
10:56:15 <esolangs> [[C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(c)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83120&oldid=80756 * Int-e * (+0) fix cat(meow)egory typo
10:57:33 <fizzie> Just found out that ^ that silly thing will segfault if the wiki is edited during a moment when it's temporarily disconnected from IRC.
10:58:18 <fizzie> // TODO: don't try until a connection has been established
11:00:40 <HackEso> 7) <SimonRC> TODO: sex life \ 21) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce! \ 29) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
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13:11:33 <esolangs> [[Fargo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83121&oldid=81584 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Truth-machine */ fix
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13:21:10 <fizzie> I think the reason that got left as a TODO is it wasn't quite as trivial as just not calling flush; I've just got a single send queue, which is also used for the connection registration (NICK/PASS and so on), but optimally you'd want an "external" send to either wait until *after* that has completed. Hmm.
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14:30:17 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83122&oldid=83113 * Batata * (+12)
14:30:27 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83123&oldid=83122 * Batata * (+4)
14:30:59 <int-e> fizzie: leave it for later :P
14:32:10 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83124&oldid=83123 * Batata * (+8)
14:32:56 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83125&oldid=83124 * Batata * (+54)
14:33:14 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83126&oldid=83125 * Batata * (-7)
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14:33:35 <fizzie> Maybe the right thing to do (on the library level) is to just drop messages that are attempted to be sent while not on channel. I don't want to end up in a situation where it's offline for days, then joins and floods all wiki changes at once.
14:34:05 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83127&oldid=83126 * Batata * (+31)
14:34:20 -!- moony has changed nick to cd.
14:34:24 <int-e> or overengineer it with a ring buffer of configurable length
14:34:52 <fizzie> Strictly speaking it's got one ring buffer of configurable length already. :)
14:36:08 <fizzie> Maybe I'll engineer it into a combination ring buffer and priority queue / dependency tree thing, so that you can express the notion "send this but only when this constraint is satisfied".
14:38:30 <fizzie> It's also got one of those flow control things where it tracks how much "credit" you're expected to have, with different commands having a different base cost, and a constant rate of refill.
14:39:13 <fizzie> Which I think I looked at one of the (simpler) ircd's to set up. And then rounded up a little, because you can't quite predict how it will look like to the server.
14:44:57 <int-e> . o O ( semaphore )
14:47:08 <b_jonas> "Maybe the right thing to do […] is to just drop messages that are attempted to be sent while not on channel." => certainly better than segfaulting
15:05:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83128&oldid=82963 * Batata * (+49)
15:06:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83129&oldid=83128 * Batata * (-3)
15:08:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83130&oldid=83129 * Batata * (-4)
15:09:42 <int-e> but mostly harmless?
15:10:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83131&oldid=83130 * Batata * (+72)
15:11:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83132&oldid=83131 * Batata * (+12)
15:14:20 <fizzie> Yeah, I just wonder what it's leading to.
15:14:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ilaylevy * New user account
15:14:38 <oren> wait why would mussolini make everyone speak spanish
15:14:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83133&oldid=83132 * Batata * (-2)
15:15:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83134&oldid=83133 * Batata * (-12)
15:15:27 <int-e> oren: too much Monty Python?
15:22:53 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83135&oldid=83127 * Batata * (+44)
15:23:11 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83136&oldid=83135 * Batata * (+0)
15:24:53 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83137&oldid=83136 * Batata * (+2)
15:25:16 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83138&oldid=83137 * Batata * (+1)
15:27:13 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83139&oldid=83138 * Batata * (+0)
15:28:40 * cd angrily shakes fist at user that isn’t using the Preview button
15:33:05 <fizzie> I know there's some (at least two) approaches that force a preview before save, but I don't know if it's really worth it.
15:34:24 <fizzie> If IRC had past message editing capabilities, I'd make that thing collapse consecutive edits the same way the recent changes page does.
15:35:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83140&oldid=83089 * Ilaylevy * (+143) /* Introductions */
15:36:04 <esolangs> [[Yogurt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83141 * Ilaylevy * (+446) Created page with "<h1>Yogurt is a language that uses only 1 character to do a certain action, for example:</h1> {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Symbol !! Action |- | p || prints the c..."
15:37:34 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83142&oldid=83139 * Batata * (+0)
15:38:01 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83143&oldid=83142 * Batata * (+9)
15:46:09 <HackEso> ?dowg? No such file or directory
15:46:17 <HackEso> A dowg is a wise dog. One who uses many dowgs is known as a dowager.
15:46:29 <HackEso> `cbt was the moment when bin/ jumped the shark.
15:49:39 <nakilon> how and what these bots respond makes me feel stupid
15:50:37 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/cbt
15:51:30 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/cbt
15:52:55 <HackEso> `cbt was the moment when bin/ jumped the shark.
15:53:30 <int-e> Oh it prepends a `... when did that happen
15:55:21 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-04-18.html#lNb is less illuminating than I hoped
15:58:20 <HackEso> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
16:01:20 <HackEso> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
16:03:55 <fizzie> HackEso's /hackenv/bin is like one of those cases where you have an isolated ecological niche, like a small island or something, and evolution just goes off the rails in there and produces something that only barely resembles any mainstream branch.
16:05:51 <int-e> nakilon: maybe the trouble with wisdoms is that it's impossible to tell apart the smart ones from the stupid but obscure ones.
16:06:45 <int-e> (and of course some of them combine both qualities, smart and obscure)
16:06:57 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \ else: \ print ("https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/" + \ urllib.quote(f))
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16:10:52 <int-e> nakilon: there's url, for the url of a file in the repo; hurl for its history... and then silly things like hwrl for hurl, but relative to $HACKENV/wisdom
16:10:56 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:11:25 <HackEso> hbrl? No such file or directory
16:11:35 <int-e> not this one, okay.
16:11:54 <HackEso> <fizzïe> sled /hackenv/bin/cbt//s|cat bin|cat $HACKENV/bin| \ <shachäf> mkx bin/cbt//cat bin/"$1"
16:12:20 <int-e> Somebody explained that one to me at least once but I forgot.
16:12:27 <HackEso> hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
16:12:54 <cd> Half the scripts in bin are just incomprehensible aha
16:12:55 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
16:13:21 <HackEso> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
16:13:32 <HackEso> moony is often named the following: moonythedwarf moonythehuman moonheart08 moon moon__ noomy computing and luxon, making porthellos and @tells a real pain.
16:13:44 <int-e> `culprits ../quotes
16:13:46 <HackEso> arseniïv int-̈e user345̈6 kspalaiologös km̈c wib_jonäs fizzïe oerjän fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe arseniïv ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 kspalaiologös oerjän km̈c km̈c shachäf oerjän oerjän b_jonäs oerjän b_jonäs b_jonäs shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän arseniïv oerjän oerjän alercäh oerjän shachäf shachäf wob_jonäs shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf int-̈e int-̈e oer
16:13:47 <cd> now cd and moon get to be added to the list, huzzah
16:14:18 <cd> If only I remembered how to edit wisdom entries
16:14:22 <cd> it’s been quite a bit
16:15:54 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ opts="${2--i}" \ [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed $opts "$value" "$key" ;
16:16:39 <int-e> `cwlprits ../bin/roll
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16:17:13 <int-e> nakilon: note the command name
16:17:28 <int-e> or maybe you don't know the movie, hmm
16:17:35 <fizzie> Tempted to do a tvtropes ItWasHisSled link here.
16:17:53 <cd> Took me a minute
16:17:56 -!- cd has changed nick to moony.
16:18:46 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/109/
16:19:00 <shachaf> int-e: Oh no, I don't want to be a ruiner of jokes.
16:20:03 <moony> No command line tool is complete without a sense of humor
16:20:06 <int-e> Oh wow. https://www.irc.com/lets-take-irc-further
16:20:20 <nakilon> I can't tell if it's the world becomes crazier every year or is it me
16:20:22 <int-e> moony: every unix program will evolve until it can read email
16:21:23 <int-e> (followup: rm -rf /var/spool/mail = read mail, really fast)
16:21:25 <moony> (Sadly not a real domain)
16:22:06 <fizzie> `` cbt rnooodl # speaking of obsolete nonsense
16:22:07 <nakilon> "However it happened, this person who I will never know, spent an hour teaching me how to use IRC."
16:22:08 <HackEso> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
16:22:15 <nakilon> yeah there was a time when people were open to be taught
16:23:15 <moony> Hackego’s bin is treasure trove of random silly things from across time
16:24:09 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, the generalized version is not obsolete.
16:24:22 <HackEso> 8518:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 5060d5af0b98 bin/rnooodl >bin/rnooodl \ 8202:2016-05-29 <shachäf> sed -i s/w/wW/ bin/rnooodl \ 8198:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\W])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8197:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\w])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8196:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/(\\w)\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8195:2016-05-29 <oerja
16:24:58 <int-e> shachaf may be better at explaining the finer points of bin/ etymology
16:25:45 <moony> Hm, I don’t remember, there’s a way for a command to figure out what user is running it correct?
16:26:10 <HackEso> echo -n $IRC_NICK; if [[ "$1" == "-v" && -n "$IRC_IDENT" ]]; then echo -n "!$IRC_IDENT"; if [[ -n "$IRC_HOST" ]]; then echo -n "@$IRC_HOST"; fi; fi; echo
16:26:29 <moony> Ah yep there we to
16:27:05 <fizzie> `` env | grep ^IRC | paste
16:27:06 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.2156
16:27:21 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ if [ "$1" ] && url "$1" 2>/dev/null # Save making a file when it already exists. \ then \ true \ else \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/tmp/paste \ \ url $HACKENV/tmp/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ cat -- "${1--}" > $HACKENV/tmp/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ fi
16:27:45 <fizzie> `` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # laziest quine
16:27:46 <HackEso> `` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # laziest quine
16:27:50 <nakilon> omg we even have a pastebin
16:27:57 <moony> i have some ideas again but I’m on phone which is a terrible place to do shell scripting
16:27:58 <fizzie> Oh no, the whitespace got lost in there.
16:28:15 <fizzie> Well, collapsed, not lost.
16:29:10 <int-e> `` echo "$IRC_MESSAGE" # laziest quine
16:29:11 <HackEso> `` echo "$IRC_MESSAGE" # laziest quine
16:29:42 <int-e> (just checking, I was only 99% sure)
16:33:28 <shachaf> So I used to think of "quine just literally reading the program code" and "quine doing it properly" as very distinct classes, with the former one cheating.
16:33:48 <shachaf> But then I was thinking about writing a .COM program which is also a quine.
16:34:04 <shachaf> And in that situation the line is much more blurry.
16:36:10 <int-e> von Neumann quines vs. Harvard quines.
16:38:59 <HackEso> PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_NICK=b_jonas \ IRC_IDENT=~x \ IRC_HOST=catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=##esoteric \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8
16:39:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: for the future when we might own #esoteric on libera, you should consider to add an env-var to distinguish chat networks (sorry)
16:41:20 <b_jonas> "HackEso's /hackenv/bin is like one of those cases where you have an isolated ecological niche, like a small island or something, and evolution just goes off the rails in there and produces something that only barely resembles any mainstream branch." => yeah. and I live in the continent and don't eat kangaroo meat.
16:41:34 -!- imode has joined.
16:42:08 <fizzie> That's a pretty short environment. And yeah. Although I'm still partial to the boring `#esolangs` name (sorry).
16:42:41 <shachaf> Wait, this channel is about esoteric languages?
16:43:04 <moony> I thought this was just a chat room, since when were funny looking languages involve
16:43:49 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> I can't tell if it's the world becomes crazier every year or is it me" => possibly both
16:44:13 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83144&oldid=83022 * Zero player rodent * (-464)
16:45:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm fine with #esolangs as long as we redirect #esoteric there for discoverability
16:46:18 <b_jonas> we have seen users return to #esoteric after years of absence, and if there are such in the future, they will look for #esoteric on libera and freenode
16:47:23 <nakilon> `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | rasel
16:47:52 <b_jonas> moony: the funny looking languages are involved by being collected on the wiki as a public service to keep terrible articles away from wikipedia. we are the heirs of Intercal and so we clean up our own garbage.
16:48:14 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:48:14 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:48:39 <nakilon> `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | ./rasel
16:48:47 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:48:48 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:48:54 <moony> Ahaha yes, I’ve had to clean people’s so langs off of wikipedia
16:49:10 <moony> autocorreeccccccctttttttt! Stop that
16:49:46 <nakilon> `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | /hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:49:51 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:49:52 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:51:59 <HackEso> cat: 'bin/rasel ': No such file or directory
16:52:13 <HackEso> echo "$@" | /hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:52:20 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:52:30 <HackEso> a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ rasel \ rasel_files \ rasel.jar \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt
16:54:26 <moony> `mkx /hackenv/bin/rasel//echo “$@“ | /hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:54:28 <nakilon> ``rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:54:29 <HackEso> `rasel? No such file or directory
16:55:26 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:56:20 <b_jonas> nakilon: try without apostrophes
16:57:01 <nakilon> `mkx /hackenv/bin/rasel//echo "$@" | /hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:57:10 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:57:21 <int-e> `` rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:57:37 <int-e> `rasel A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj
16:58:00 <b_jonas> and you might want to install to a permanent directory in /hackenv/lib or something, not /hackenv/tmp
16:59:04 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'hackenv/lib': No such file or directory
16:59:08 <HackEso> c++decl \ cdecl \ frink \ frink.jar \ interp \ karma \ kps \ morse-decode \ p7zip-16.02
16:59:48 <b_jonas> and a share too. but no libexec yet.
17:00:07 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83145&oldid=83144 * Zero player rodent * (+50)
17:00:46 <b_jonas> there's also an ibin, which is a relic of EgoBot's legacy
17:01:23 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83146&oldid=83145 * Zero player rodent * (+41)
17:01:29 <b_jonas> I think interps is the lib directory for where ibin is the bin directory, or maybe backwards
17:01:45 <b_jonas> yeah, ibin is the bin, interps is the lib
17:01:50 <nakilon> this is beyond my understanding
17:02:41 <b_jonas> nakilon: /hackenv/tmp is not version controlled, and may be purged once every few years. it's useful for temporary stuff that survives between commands, but probably not the best for a permanent installation
17:03:01 <b_jonas> nakilon: /hackenv/lib and /hackenv/share are useful for when you want to install something permanently and it's more than just an executable in /hackenv/bin
17:03:33 <b_jonas> /hackenv/lib and /hackenv/share and /hackenv/bin are version-controlled, and you can have something from /hackenv/bin refer to additional files in /hackenv/lib or /hackenv/share
17:04:12 <shachaf> What is this rasel thing, though?
17:04:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: some befunge-like language that nakilon is making https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rasel
17:04:45 <int-e> an anagram of laser
17:05:39 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(sorted("laser")==sorted("rasel"))
17:06:26 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(sorted("release")==sorted("rasel"))
17:06:49 <int-e> b_jonas: that's the enterprise edition
17:07:57 <nakilon> `mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem
17:07:57 <HackEso> mv: missing destination file operand after '/hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem' \ Try 'mv --help' for more information.
17:08:18 <nakilon> ``mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem
17:08:19 <HackEso> `mv? No such file or directory
17:08:24 <int-e> nakilon: start with "`` "
17:08:29 <int-e> you need the space too
17:08:33 <nakilon> `` mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem
17:08:35 <HackEso> mv: cannot stat '/hackenv/tmp/rasel_files': No such file or directory
17:08:48 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
17:09:10 <int-e> `` is just like `cbt , a command we wrote to have more fun
17:09:12 <moony> why is rnooodl in there
17:09:21 <HackEso> a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ rasel \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt
17:09:22 <shachaf> Oh, nice, someone fell into that trap again.
17:10:19 <shachaf> Where trying to mv a file out of tmp/ just permanently deletes it.
17:10:59 <int-e> I did forget about that.
17:11:34 <int-e> shachaf: does that apply here though? /lib is not in the repo, is it?
17:11:41 <moony> Somebody forgot to feed the mouse again
17:11:46 <int-e> so we just shouldn't trust the error message
17:12:05 <shachaf> I thought everything in /hackenv is checked in except for tmp/ (which is in .hgignore).
17:12:33 <b_jonas> hopefully nakilon has a backup for the interpreter, he didn't just develop it in /hackenv/tmp with no other copies, because that would be so last century
17:12:54 <nakilon> yeah it's just a copy from github
17:13:30 <moony> It is, but the mouse went unfed
17:13:34 <int-e> not since that `ls ../tmp
17:13:38 <moony> someone get the cheese
17:13:50 <int-e> b_jonas: can you add a recognizable but rare string to those so that I can ignore them, please
17:13:52 <shachaf> It was also not responding to my queries a little before that.
17:14:09 <b_jonas> int-e: I guess I should make a command then
17:14:22 <b_jonas> or maybe ping is already there
17:14:41 <b_jonas> I'll check when HackEso reappears
17:15:16 <int-e> fizzie: is there anything about `ls ../tmp that would hang hackeso?
17:16:01 <nakilon> bot really dislikes my language
17:16:09 <nakilon> it deleted it and stopped talking
17:16:27 <jinn> i'm right here what are u on about?
17:16:39 <moony> Give it a minute and it’ll throw an out of cheese error. Nothing wrong with your language:)
17:16:44 <b_jonas> the web interface seems to be alive
17:17:09 <int-e> b_jonas: well, so is the other instance on freenode
17:17:39 <b_jonas> then it's just one of those cases where the IRC connection half-breaks
17:18:02 <b_jonas> it can half-break in multiple ways
17:18:11 <b_jonas> if it just breaks completely, that's easy, the irc client would just reconnect
17:19:04 <nakilon> it's 10 minutes already, IRC had to drop him long ago
17:19:15 <b_jonas> but I've seen cases where the server pretended that it broke and gave a timeout message, and cases where the connection definitely broke but there was some bug in my bot why it wouldn't restart and I couldn never debug why that was, or it could break in just one of the two duplex directions
17:19:22 <b_jonas> or still be alive but with huge lag
17:19:45 <b_jonas> or appear to be alive but not respond to anything so you have to wait for a long timeout
17:20:04 <fizzie> int-e: Hmm. Nothing obvious, at least.
17:20:06 -!- dyeplexer has quit (*.net *.split).
17:20:06 -!- HackEso has quit (*.net *.split).
17:20:27 <int-e> network trouble, fine
17:20:30 <nakilon> those two bot instances should work like a cluster and be able to restart each other
17:20:57 -!- HackEso has joined.
17:21:07 <HackEso> bot? No such file or directory
17:21:09 <nakilon> oh, where was it connected to? only he and some guy were splitted away
17:21:52 <fizzie> It connects to whatever irc.libera.chat happens to give it.
17:22:46 <fizzie> I've been keeping an eye on https://netsplit.de/servers/?net=Libera.Chat and the new network's been sprouting up servers like mushrooms in the rain. (Is that also an English idiom, or just a local one?)
17:23:33 <int-e> fizzie: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/spring+up+like+mushrooms ...no rain
17:23:39 <nakilon> mushrooms after rain in Russian
17:24:06 <int-e> like mushrooms from the ground in german
17:24:53 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83147&oldid=83146 * Zero player rodent * (+493)
17:25:09 <fizzie> It's "sieniä sateella" in Finnish, and the adessive case (-lla) there doesn't really obviously translate to a specific English preposition, especially in that context.
17:25:19 <fizzie> But mushrooms and rain are both definitely in it.
17:25:42 -!- dbohdan has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in).
17:25:54 <int-e> well, you *are* close to russia
17:25:57 -!- dyeplexer has joined.
17:26:00 <moony> Hopefully they name their least reliable server Iron
17:26:03 -!- dbohdan has joined.
17:26:27 <moony> Sturdy ‘til it’s not
17:26:44 <nakilon> int-e not sure what you mean
17:27:02 <nakilon> I'm 15km away from Lenin's body
17:27:13 <int-e> nakilon: nordic countries
17:27:18 <int-e> nakilon: I was replying to fizzie
17:27:43 <nakilon> oh sry, have a highlight on "Russia" in client settings
17:29:15 -!- dbohdan has quit (Changing host).
17:29:15 -!- dbohdan has joined.
17:29:32 -!- dbohdan has quit (Client Quit).
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17:31:23 <nakilon> btw not sure how but it looks like my files aren't gone and were successfully moved there
17:32:06 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:33:57 <int-e> so they aren't under version control after all
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17:34:41 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/pong/pong "$@"/' /hackenv/bin/ping
17:34:42 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ echo pong "$@"
17:35:04 <fizzie> Is there some sort of a global ignore file somewhere for _gem directories or what?
17:35:06 <b_jonas> `ping jrFZt8j4_LHE # int-e: I'll try to remember to use ping instead of echo, but I'll probably forget
17:35:18 <fizzie> Because that's the only thing that comes to mind that would explain it.
17:35:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: can't there be a local .hgignore file, or maybe hg reading gitignore files or something?
17:36:15 <fizzie> There is a local .hgignore file, but the only thing in it is ^tmp/
17:36:30 <int-e> `ls /hackenv/lib | paste
17:36:30 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/hackenv/lib | paste': No such file or directory
17:36:32 <int-e> `` ls /hackenv/lib | paste
17:36:34 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.6848
17:36:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but I mean a local one in the rasel package
17:37:35 <int-e> this won't end well
17:37:35 <b_jonas> ``` find /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem -ls # it seems like only the directories exist, nothing under them
17:37:36 <HackEso> 1309820 4 drwxr-xr-x 4 1000 1000 4096 Feb 3 11:42 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem \ 1310481 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 4096 May 21 17:08 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem/lib \ 1309888 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 4096 May 21 17:08 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem/bin
17:37:49 <int-e> ah, only files are tracked
17:38:12 <b_jonas> then we can sneakily store non-version-controlled data in directory structures
17:38:16 <int-e> or am I mixing up hg and git there
17:39:09 <fizzie> Oh, it's only directories.
17:39:25 <fizzie> Yeah, I think that's the case.
17:39:37 <moony> Anyone verified that this network’s IRP interpreter is functional?
17:39:44 <fizzie> And yes, I guess it's also a new way of gaming the system.
17:41:17 <int-e> nakilon: basically, every command is run twice, with a fresh checkout inbetween. so the first mv takes, but the second time around, the /tmp directory is gone and you get an error... and nothing gets committed
17:41:26 <int-e> I'm struggling to remember why.
17:41:39 <moony> (I just did, IRP survived the move!)
17:41:49 <int-e> why there are two stages
17:42:03 <nakilon> what does "In another world:" mean in HackEso's response?
17:42:11 <shachaf> I think it runs each command twice because most commands are read-only, so it speculatively tries in read-only mode first.
17:42:19 <b_jonas> int-e: only commands that write anything to version-controlled get ran twice, and it's to be able to run multiple commands that don't write anything to version-controlled in parallel but serialize commands that do write there
17:42:36 <shachaf> I mean, in the mode where it doesn't lock the repository/serialize/whatever for changes, or something.
17:42:40 <int-e> b_jonas: concurrent execution, thanks. that was it
17:42:52 <fizzie> Yeah, it's got shared read locks and exclusive write locks.
17:43:07 <int-e> poor person's RW lock
17:43:08 <b_jonas> int-e: jevalbot does not have such locking, and if you run two commands that try to write state in parallel, then the output of one of them may be lost
17:43:46 <fizzie> "In another world" means roughly "outside /hackenv", meaning there's no web URL available to access that path.
17:44:08 <fizzie> It might also have some subtlety around /hackenv/tmp, which has a web window but no version history.
17:46:33 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83148&oldid=83147 * Zero player rodent * (+2)
17:46:55 <nakilon> fizzie my mistake was "/hackeso/" instead of "/hackenv/"
17:47:09 <b_jonas> I'm not used to "window" being used that way. it already has other technical meanings which is why we don't do so.
17:47:19 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83149 * Zero player rodent * (+3311) Created page with "'''PaRappa''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] that is based on the rhythm game "PaRappa The Rapper". The code is meant to look like the gameplay. It is nearly identica..."
17:48:46 <esolangs> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83150&oldid=83023 * Zero player rodent * (+15)
17:52:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * E97m2813flz1a * New user account
17:54:24 <nakilon> `rasel A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj
17:58:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83151&oldid=83140 * E97m2813flz1a * (+129) Introduce myself
17:59:46 <int-e> that nick is not inspiring confidence
18:00:53 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yeah, I just couldn't come up with a better word on the spot. Web browser? No. Web endpoint, web interface? Maybe. Web view? Nah. Web expositor? Uh, well.
18:01:29 <moony> Oh no that’s probably MichaelRaskin
18:02:27 -!- xkapastel has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:03:10 <int-e> well whoever it is first has to figure out the instructions on the introduction page :P
18:03:30 <nakilon> from the language name and first words of description I imagined something different
18:03:58 <nakilon> smth like distributed computing over IRC clients
18:04:08 <moony> Nah just a silly joke lang
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18:07:34 <nakilon> there is this weird thing https://github.com/ruby/drb
18:07:58 <nakilon> you write code like if you are in the runtime of another process on another machine
18:09:37 <nakilon> the only time I saw it used was in bank
18:11:15 <nakilon> instead of making a server that would accept reports via JSON/POST or even their lovely SOAP, they made it a standard in their team...
18:13:28 <nakilon> more explanation here, but basically it's evaling https://ruby-doc.org/stdlib-2.7.1/libdoc/drb/rdoc/DRb.html
18:17:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: I would say "web view", but I call it "web interafce" in the wiki article
18:19:39 <fizzie> The reason why I find "web view" jarring probably has to do with the fact that over in Android, there's a thing called a WebView, which is something else.
18:22:34 <esolangs> [[IRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83152&oldid=67566 * E97m2813flz1a * (+345) Describe the situation after Freenode takeover
18:29:35 -!- moony has changed nick to example.
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18:44:51 -!- imode-the-great has left (WeeChat 3.1).
18:51:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RobynTiger * New user account
18:54:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83153&oldid=83151 * RobynTiger * (+161) /* Introductions */
18:58:19 <esolangs> [[User:RobynTiger]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83154 * RobynTiger * (+151) Created page with "First-year Computer Science and Mathematics student :D (I'll add more interesting stuff here later, I guess xD) [https://github.com/robyntiger GitHub]"
19:02:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: https://libera.chat/chanreg doesn't mention a ## namespace prefix anywhere, so ## doesn't officially have the same meaning as on freenode. presumably there'll still be a lot of ## channels just to have the same name as on freenode, but that doesn't apply to us
19:03:12 <b_jonas> even if you don't register a project or community
19:04:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm wrong: https://libera.chat/policies does mention that prefix
19:09:01 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:13:21 <int-e> b_jonas: current practice would allow us to just take #esoteric and we'll keep it unless somebody comes along with a better claim (which is of course a possibility... even an actual "other kind of" esoteric community)
19:14:10 <int-e> But fizzie picked ##esoteric and he was here first :) (#esoteric is currently "mine")
19:14:45 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, we can take #esoteric
19:15:20 <int-e> I honestly don't care either way
19:15:43 <int-e> I'm fond of the "esoteric" in-joke
19:17:12 <b_jonas> oh! as for in-joke, if we figure out the final place, we should submit a patch to Canaima to direct people there
19:17:26 -!- Wezl has joined.
19:25:17 <b_jonas> oh, and even "https://libera.chat/chanreg" mentions the ## prefix. it just says "two # characters", I was searching for /##/ and /double/
19:26:47 <esolangs> [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83155&oldid=83090 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+313) Corrected an error in the resizing of the memory vector, introduced this scaling for other commands, and fixed an erroneous type declaration.
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19:41:08 <imode> what the hell is going on?
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19:45:21 <int-e> imode: what am I missing?
19:46:00 <int-e> ah, #libera is more impressive
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20:11:33 <serpent3416[m|gr> | _\ ) /!\ THE JEWS HAVE TAKEN OVER FREENODE, CHATS HAVE MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT /!\
20:11:36 <serpent3416[m|gr> \ .--- / /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
20:11:39 <serpent3416[m|gr> _/`-. __.'_ /!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
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20:12:35 <Taneb> Was... was that spammer lost
20:13:00 <cd> just a kiddie with a script
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20:39:31 <int-e> nakilon: that pun is the only good thing about that spam
20:41:51 <fizzie> Libertalia, that pirate place.
20:42:30 <fizzie> (All I know about it is watching someone else's playthrough of that one game.)
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20:53:29 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83156&oldid=83143 * Batata * (+36)
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20:54:26 <myname> what i don't get is why people are spamming about libera in completely unrelated networks
20:54:48 <myname> is this some sort of fud campaign?
20:54:57 <imode> is the sentiment positive or negative.
20:55:10 <imode> remember, you're up against someone who actively hates everybody here.
20:56:08 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83157&oldid=83156 * Batata * (+78)
20:56:58 <nakilon> so I did another attempt to figure put what it is about the Libera
20:57:26 <arseniiv_> strange to hear nightingales combined with frogs from the street
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20:57:32 <nakilon> and the only thing I see is that the new owner just put ads of his another company on freenode website
20:58:06 <nakilon> but I don't understand how it's a reason for people to switch to another network
20:59:19 <arseniiv> I think it wasn’t obvious what’s planned for freenode’s fate, and it isn’t?
21:01:03 <nakilon> is there anything obvious about fate of anything?
21:01:03 <arseniiv> so they might put just ads or the might do something very drastic, or would be further down the road but not right now, and who would know
21:01:16 <arseniiv> I mean, not the fate in abstract, but the plain in their head
21:01:17 <nakilon> and how was the "freenode's fate" more obvious earlier than now? if people "didn't see 'it' coming" then it wasn't obvious in the first place
21:01:36 <myname> nakilon: they didn't switch to another network if you define the network by the people and principles behind it rather than the name
21:02:03 <imode> nakilon: there was a hostile take-over of freenode by a dude calling himself the crown prince of korea, with plans to turn IRC into discord and monetize it.
21:02:08 <imode> what more info you need fam.
21:02:19 <nakilon> and how do we know there is no "very drastic" in Libera plans?
21:02:30 <arseniiv> <nakilon> and how was the "freenode's fate" more obvious earlier than now? => I’d think, well, before this entire thing started nobody knew it would
21:02:34 <myname> if there is, there already was in the "old" freenode
21:02:46 <imode> because libera wouldn't exist if the staff agreed with andrew's vision?
21:02:51 <imode> the fuck is your argument.
21:03:04 <arseniiv> <nakilon> and how do we know there is no "very drastic" in Libera plans? => I personally don’t!
21:03:25 <nakilon> imode I don't see about Korea and Discord in Wikipedia's article about Freenode
21:03:34 <imode> nakilon: you haven't been following the posts, then.
21:03:42 <arseniiv> I’m going with my limited instincts for a while
21:03:55 <imode> which is fair, this is a messy situation.
21:04:00 <nakilon> arseniiv same today "nobody knows it would" here
21:04:14 <arseniiv> if they’ll be wrong, well, so be it, I’m bad with politics and with being informed unfortunately
21:04:39 <nakilon> I only see people being scared by their own fantasies about "what can happen"
21:04:47 <myname> people aren't on freenode because it's named freenode but rather because of the people behind it. if the people behind it start getting legal threats and collectively decide to make something new, it's probably for a reason
21:04:51 <arseniiv> (figurative instincts of course, as humans don’t have biological ones)
21:05:10 <imode> nakilon: uh, same could be said of you, on this network.
21:05:32 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur)
21:05:39 <imode> fyi, in case you can't click hyperlinks on freenode's page.
21:05:45 <myname> i don't care "what can happen" in freenode, i don't want to be on a network that is overtaken against the will of the community
21:05:52 <myname> even if everything would stay the same
21:08:06 <nakilon> how is someone's "prince of Korea" status makes Freenode worse place?
21:08:35 <nakilon> is there something bad about Korea?
21:09:04 <nakilon> how does that makes the #esoteric channel on Freenode less functional or something?
21:09:52 <imode> I'm going to be nice and assume you're not trolling, it's not that. it's that someone came in, against the wishes of the community at large, threatened legal action against the existing staff unless they handed over the keys to freenode at large, threatened to drown them in lawyers and legal fees until they backed off property that wasn't his...
21:10:14 <myname> nakilon: there is something bad about people overtaking stuff violently
21:10:16 <imode> tried to bribe or extort existing staff of FOSS projects.
21:10:20 <imode> to stay on the network.
21:10:44 <imode> and is now trying to monetize the thing because he bought a "community" of active individuals that he can now break apart while he turns freenode into a glorified investment vehicle.
21:10:48 <imode> among other problems.
21:10:56 <arseniiv> <imode> tried to bribe or extort existing staff of FOSS projects. => wow :(
21:11:14 <imode> there's a reason why sponsors are pulling hardware, why FOSS projects are moving off the network, and why this is overall spreading.
21:11:40 <myname> i would be kinda interested in how many active channels will stay on freenode
21:11:51 <myname> i'd assume those are next to none
21:12:28 <imode> so if you're _genuinely uninformed_ and not just trolling, there's the answer in a nutshell. there are in-depth threads about it on HN, there are plenty of people that'll answer you in #libera or #libera-dev around the specifics.
21:13:08 <arseniiv> I’d assume nakilon is not trolling :)
21:13:28 <imode> it's really just confusing as hell.
21:13:51 <arseniiv> we live in invisible^W confusing times
21:14:18 <myname> i don't think the relevant part is that confusing
21:14:36 <myname> violent overtake of network. old staff made new network. people like old staff. people move.
21:15:31 <nakilon> why would I even know them
21:16:21 <myname> sure, but even if you don't know them, doesn't the pure fact that they created a new network because of legal threats suffice to not support whatever the new freenode is?
21:16:27 <nakilon> not #channel_of_freenode_staff
21:16:35 <imode> great. but why on this network. if you don't agree with the network, if you don't see a purpose behind it, stay on freenode.
21:17:17 <nakilon> are you gatekeeping me or what?
21:17:31 <myname> i don't get your point
21:17:51 <nakilon> you are calling me troll already like 6 times
21:17:53 <arseniiv> I’d presuppose the staff should have being doing things more or less right as there weren’t freenode breakups before this event
21:17:55 <imode> have fun on the ignore list.
21:18:09 <nakilon> you aredefinitely not the people I'm here for
21:18:25 <river> nakilon this is IRC!
21:19:06 <myname> i still have no idea what your point even is
21:19:29 <imode> just ignore them, they're here to siphon attention, not actually discuss anything.
21:19:41 <arseniiv> let’s not be harsh to each other if it’s possible, I left a forum recently because it was a hard place and it still bubbles up in my memory each day
21:20:06 <nakilon> this is some people have too much time wasted of debating and lurking about staff's personal life and finances, enough much to become spontaneously angry on other users in chat who are just asking questions
21:20:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Batata]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83158 * Batata * (+1) Created page with "e"
21:20:24 <myname> that has nothing to do with the staff as persons
21:20:29 <imode> arseniiv: I doubt the user in question is actually a part of this community.
21:20:35 <imode> and is just here to stir up shit.
21:20:40 <myname> this has everything to do with a violent takeover. nothing more, nothing less
21:20:50 <myname> i don't support violent takeovers
21:20:57 <river> disrespect your SURROUNDINGS!
21:22:13 <nakilon> dude keeps shitting on me for no reason
21:22:24 <arseniiv> I’d prefer to think sometimes we are really confused about this or that or some details but this doesn’t necessarily come through text true; miscommunication happens and it happens often enough. Yep no one should be infinitely trusting, as genuine trolling is a thing, but
21:22:41 <arseniiv> but whatever, who I am to mediate anything
21:22:43 <myname> no, because you keep talking bullshit and don't act on the given points
21:22:49 <nakilon> "I doubt he's a part of the community" -- ahahah
21:22:57 <nakilon> I'm definitely not the part of his community
21:23:01 <nakilon> if it's about beibng such retard
21:23:08 <imode> considering the number of "why does this network exist you all are retards" people that have flooded libera, yeah, I'm going to assume malicious intent.
21:25:14 <myname> as i said, you still don't respond to any argument
21:25:28 <myname> i cannot assume you are serious
21:27:37 <nakilon> neither answers on my questions about how the legal problems between owners have any effect on the channels
21:28:34 <arseniiv> I’d think people generally want to feel safe and they have a bit of a precedent the old freenode staff didn’t abuse their power?
21:28:55 <arseniiv> and then they are forced away, so, well…
21:29:50 <arseniiv> why isn’t it an argument, at least one in a cumulative heap of arguments if it’s not enough by its own
21:30:13 <myname> this network exists because of a takeover of the old network. period.
21:30:51 <imode> why are you still entertaining this lmao.
21:30:54 <imode> just /ignore and move on.
21:30:59 <imode> eh, not my business.
21:31:59 <nakilon> "there is something bad about people overtaking stuff violently" -- this is just funny, considering how the world either ignored or even supported the neonazi revolution in my country that lead to 9000 civilian deaths and thousands of deaths among people who were forced to do the genocide
21:32:35 <arseniiv> though I’d say maybe discussing this kind of arguments isn’t really on topic in this channel. It’s either not that esoteric and maybe it would be more productive to discuss these matters with other people
21:32:59 <myname> and you know what? the majority of humans didn't support the nazis, that'. why they lost
21:33:52 <myname> sure, i will do something more productive, like sleeping
21:36:55 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83159&oldid=83157 * Batata * (+88)
21:37:13 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83160&oldid=83159 * Batata * (+1)
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22:10:56 <fizzie> Meta-discussion about where #esoteric should be is probably on-topic, and the larger questions insofar as they relate to that, but anything beyond that probably not so much.
22:11:34 <fizzie> Personally I'm on this side because while I don't know the people who left particularly well (I think we have just the one former freenode staff member as a channel regular?), I've got a generally positive opinion of them collectively, and feel like as the people who've actually kept things running, they have a better claim to this being the "same network" we've been on so far; and
22:11:40 <fizzie> superficially-independent third-party accounts have on average agreed that the new management has behaved at least a little sucky.
22:11:53 <fizzie> I don't expect the disagreement will necessarily have an impact on how we *could* use either network (unless longer-term one or the other just withers away, meaning less chance of random passers-by), but that just means from that perspective the choice of a network is arbitrary, so there's no particular reason to stay either. And I sorta-like this notion of having a registration scheme for communities,
22:12:44 <fizzie> Now, getting back on track, I've kludged together the world's least advanced bridge between the esolangs/esowiki bots. If I turn it on, they'd each copy over every PRIVMSG (except their own, of course), prefix it with "<nick> " and send it on the other side. No splitting of long messages, no filtering, no other message types, no bells, no whistles. Is that a good idea or not? What would catch on fire
22:16:28 <int-e> the first thing would probably be the very precise line length arithmetic in hackeso :P
22:17:50 <b_jonas> "<myname> what i don't get is why people are spamming about libera in completely unrelated networks" => it did work, because #libera is full of spam where people are complaining about spam on other networks
22:18:05 <Taneb> I'm worried it means that if there starts being spam it'll get propagated and the bot might get klines
22:18:22 <int-e> anyway, the channel is publicly logged anyway, so I don't think a bridge causes any harm unless there's excessive noise.
22:18:32 <imode> one wonders if it's a smear campaign. pretty easy to spam about a network, and then drive people to complain about the spam of the network.
22:18:47 <imode> where nobody on that network is actually saying anything outside of libera.
22:19:07 <int-e> imode: the bots are treated as a smear campaign by the libera staff for sure
22:20:44 <int-e> officially at least, I'm sure if any tangible evidence to the contrary turns up nobody will be terribly surprised, just disappointed
22:21:30 <int-e> And... if it's a smear campaign, well, such lingering doubts mean it's working.
22:22:56 <b_jonas> "<myname> […] doesn't the pure fact that they created a new network because of legal threats suffice to not support whatever the new freenode is?" => perhaps it would if they hadn't posted messages encouraging people to unregister from freenode's nickserv
22:23:47 <int-e> wow, so much faith in the law
22:24:00 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess the spam forwarding is a potential issue.
22:24:26 <fizzie> Shouldn't there be like a Section 230 immunity for network bridges? ;)
22:24:44 <fizzie> But I guess An Algorithm probably wouldn't care about that.
22:25:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think we have two former freenode staff members as regulars: FireFly and mniip
22:25:55 <int-e> I know too little about The Algorithms used by Freenode/Libera. I thought it was mostly Sigyn/ozone listening in on select channels
22:26:03 <int-e> plus the obvious rate limiting
22:27:08 <fizzie> I don't know any details either, but I imagine they have some pattern-matching somewhere for dealing with those private-message spam campaigns. Unless people just don't have the attention span and that's why they always fizzle out.
22:27:36 <int-e> "litharge" will break my fingers (that's the eir equivalent)
22:27:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: the bridge is probably a good idea but only if you add an easy way to opt out of it so that other bridges can break loops. I suggest making an auxiliary channel and anyone who is joined the bridge won't copy their messages. or something. and figure out what to do with fungot so it doesn't answer twice.
22:28:08 <b_jonas> Taneb has a good point about propagated spam
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22:28:38 <fizzie> If there's just one instance of fungot, it shouldn't answer twice, I guess.
22:28:59 <b_jonas> might be better to ask libera staff and freenode staff
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22:29:12 <int-e> I hear you like tree-shaped networks so we added our own tree-shaped network inside IRC's tree-shaped networks
22:29:41 <imode> welcome, ProofTechnique.
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22:30:00 <int-e> I don't think having more than one bridge is reasonable.
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22:30:42 <fizzie> int-e: But think about having the chance to make an adaptive spanning tree protocol thing!
22:31:01 <int-e> fizzie: I'm thinking about my own cognitive capacity
22:31:09 <int-e> and how much I'm willing to exert it for IRC
22:31:54 <b_jonas> int-e: there's a channel with a bridge from at least three different chat things, plus a matrix bridge separate from each other. unless you want to make and maintain your bridge to support every newly popping up fashionable thing that you want to bridge, you should allow for more than one bridge.
22:32:14 <int-e> I guess I can always ignore the bridge but that will result in its very own surreal confusion as discussions grow holes.
22:32:40 <b_jonas> also multiple bridges can offer redundancy for when the server of one bridge is down, though they need their own protocol for that so they rarely copy the same message
22:32:55 <ProofTechnique> brb, building a bouncer that posts each message over a different bridge
22:32:56 <int-e> b_jonas: if that's seriously where we're headed then I don't want any bridge at all.
22:32:59 <b_jonas> plus multiple bridges is the #esoteric thing to do
22:33:04 <nakilon> "I've kludged together the world's least advanced bridge" -- you know what picture is an illustration on Wikipedia's article "kludge"? the bridge! )
22:34:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: will it be called HackEcho? because I thought of that but it's a stupid name and I think it shouldn't be called that
22:34:06 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83161&oldid=83160 * Batata * (+37)
22:34:43 <fizzie> b_jonas: As it stands it'd just use the same connections as the wiki recent changes feeds.
22:34:53 <fizzie> I don't know if esolangs/esowiki is a great name either, but still.
22:35:11 <nakilon> 01:35:05 -NickServ- pipe is not registered.
22:52:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: also don't listen to me, a bridge is probalby a terrible idea
22:58:03 <fizzie> Hey, Wikimedia folks seem to think it makes sense: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Migrating_to_Libera_Chat#Bridging_channels
23:03:39 <b_jonas> this will probably be decided per-channel, because on channels with few active mods it will copy the spam
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23:39:31 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder how many languages have an `else` branch for a loop statement, executed if the loop body never runs.
23:39:47 <fizzie> I think the Jinja template system has one of those, but it's not exactly a language.
23:40:33 <fizzie> Would allow you to do things like `for (auto item : some_list) add(item); else oh_no_its_empty();`
23:41:24 <fizzie> I guess it's not *that* far from `if (some_list.empty()) oh_no_its_empty(); else for (auto item : some_list) add(item);` though.
23:41:25 <int-e> I'm associating that with Python, somehow.
23:42:10 <int-e> except that it does something completely different, so never mind
23:43:30 <int-e> [Python] "The else block just after for/while is executed only when the loop is NOT terminated by a break statement."
23:44:20 <fizzie> Heh, I wouldn't have expected *that*.
23:44:42 <fizzie> How's that an "else"? Well, I guess it doesn't need to make sense to me.
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23:44:57 <int-e> fizzie: it's an else for the loop condition check
23:46:15 <int-e> if you break a loop, the condition will never have been false
23:47:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: the intuition is that if you write a search loop with a for-each head to iterate over something and the body breaks early when it finds the first suitable item, the else block is ran if the item is not found
23:47:54 <b_jonas> calling it "else" makes sense in that case
23:48:12 <b_jonas> and python has iterator for loops
23:48:29 <int-e> The intuition is that if you do the obvious purely formal construction to translate a loop, that will happen.
23:48:32 <b_jonas> that said, I never use for-else or while-else
23:48:58 <fizzie> [Jinja] "If no iteration took place because the sequence was empty or the filtering removed all the items from the sequence, you can render a default block by using else: <...> Note that, in Python, else blocks are executed whenever the corresponding loop did not break. Since Jinja loops cannot break anyway, a slightly different behavior of the else keyword was chosen."
23:49:34 <fizzie> Maybe a more common scenario for templates.
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23:49:41 <fizzie> (Think "your basket is empty" or whatnot.)
23:52:18 <b_jonas> and I think I associate python for-else with the kind of low status stackoverflow copy-paste code monkey who comes to IRC to ask questions for how to do some task with iterator transformers or "in one line" but can't write a trivial while loop to do the same task
23:52:49 <b_jonas> but it's a stereotype I have strong
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00:28:22 <fizzie> I guess the people who join and then get K-Lined immediately are spam attempts?
00:35:23 <b_jonas> that's I think the most common reason for k-lines
00:52:23 <fizzie> I fiddled together a command-controlled nick-based ignore list for the bridge (so that if someone spams on one side, anyone around -- even on the other side -- can make it stop) but I guess the concern is, if you get k-lined very quickly, maybe just forwarding a single spam message over will be enough.
00:57:52 <river> I create an IRC bot
01:00:15 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83162&oldid=83161 * Batata * (+48)
01:00:59 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83163&oldid=83162 * Batata * (+2)
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01:10:52 <nakilon> you could skip the messages that are sent within 5 seconds after channel join AND within 5 seconds before quit
01:23:05 <fizzie> Mm, that'd involve work. Maybe we can just give it a go and see what happens.
01:25:58 <fizzie> Move fast and break things, or how did it go. I'm sure something will go wrong in an amusing way rather than in a painful way.
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01:27:38 <fizzie> I think there's about 25% likelihood it will do anything meaningful.
01:28:07 <fizzie> On the other hand, if it does work, it'll be the first time fungot says anything over on this side.
01:28:40 <esolangs> <fizzie> Oh, except it won't, because fungot ignores esowiki for obvious reasons. Heh, didn't think of that.
01:28:40 <esolangs> <fungot> fizzie: i think that honourable members are representatives of the european union, i.e. the problem is not that people are still listening. in those circumstances, as often as is necessary.
01:28:56 <fizzie> Well, it worked indirectly, I guess.
01:30:17 <fizzie> If anyone wants to turn that off for any reason at all, just say "brctl: ignore freenode/*" and "brctl: ignore libera/*", that should stop it from doing anything.
01:31:44 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a corner case beyond that of the spam thing that we didn't think of that'll ruin everything.
01:31:53 <fizzie> I should probably check that the logging is still working, at least.
01:33:08 <shachaf> How do I opt out of being bridged?
01:33:23 <fizzie> brctl: ignore freenode/shachaf
01:33:26 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/shachaf libera/shachaf
01:35:31 <esolangs> <fizzie> Yeah, I guess those brctl commands didn't show up on this side. Thinking about these things is hard.
01:35:41 <int-e> oh it will be ignoring esowiki over there
01:35:58 <esolangs> <fizzie> Yeah, you have to invoke it over here, then the replies will be piped over.
01:36:14 <esolangs> <fungot> int-e: mr president, i would also like to say something which the european union, the forests are often the very ones which do actually protect the interests of safety to subject aircraft control and monitoring of that strategy. i am sure that you are right to say that the commission is unwilling to apply this decision retroactively and share the satisfaction of everyone's needs. regarding the recent agreement made over the nex
01:36:49 <imode> so what's the plan for the bridge, are y'all moving to libera or are you maintaining a presence.
01:37:35 <int-e> the resulting logs will not be confusing at all
01:37:41 <esolangs> <nakilon> у / ý / ÿ / ŷ / ƴ / ȳ / ɏ / ỳ / ỹ / ỿ / ẏ / ẙ / ỵ / ỷ
01:37:43 <nakilon> у / ý / ÿ / ŷ / ƴ / ȳ / ɏ / ỳ / ỹ / ỿ / ẏ / ẙ / ỵ / ỷ
01:38:10 <fizzie> As for plans, I don't really know yet for sure. I guess we're kind of exploring the configuration space.
01:39:03 <fizzie> There's a little bit of talk at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future if you missed that link.
01:39:31 <imode> I had it in my history but haven't checked it.
01:44:16 <fizzie> I think personally I'd be up for migrating here as the sort of main location, but I don't know how maybe-less-active-right-now-but-still-well-established channel regulars feel.
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01:47:02 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the something something esoteric programming | https://esolangs.org | this channel is logged | and bridged, see "brctl: help" to opt out.
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01:53:14 <fizzie> int-e: Re logs, yeah, especially if opting out becomes commonplace. Well, we can give up on the bridge if it gets too much, just couldn't resist.
01:53:59 <fizzie> (Also, the ignore list is just in-memory at this point.)
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02:04:08 <fizzie> Over troubled water, no doubt.
02:04:46 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | this channel is logged | and bridged, see "brctl: help" to opt out.
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02:07:46 <fizzie> Hmm, if I turn off windows_auto_renumber, I think I could maybe convince irssi to give the "parallel universe" channels window numbers that are, say, offset by 100 from the ones I'm used to, and that way remember what the numbers mean.
02:08:38 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83164 * AndrewBayly * (+58) Created page with "Hi, I'm Andrew. Here are the esolangs that I have created:"
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02:12:44 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83165&oldid=83164 * AndrewBayly * (+447)
02:13:21 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83166&oldid=83165 * AndrewBayly * (+0)
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02:26:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: you can also put multiple channels into the same window if you wish, though you may have to change the formatting to distinguish them then
02:27:30 <b_jonas> oh hey, you enabled a bridge to freenode?
02:27:34 <esolangs> <b_jonas> does it work both directions?
02:29:13 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> I'm sure there's a corner case beyond that of the spam thing that we didn't think of that'll ruin everything." => bot loops probably
02:29:39 <fizzie> Yeah; I don't know if it's a good idea, but it's there for now. At least a cross-network botloop would be somewhat novel.
02:30:43 <fizzie> There's a few "brctl:"-prefixed commands that anyone can use to manage which nicknames are ignored, and as a special case * will match all nicks if you need to turn it off completely and I'm not around.
02:30:50 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
02:31:30 <b_jonas> Taneb: as for OFTC and the +s flag, I believe that's as much of a policy as freenode's ## prefix in channel names
02:31:57 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
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02:33:41 <b_jonas> ``` echo "let's see what the bridge does with long lines. they should just be truncated."; seq 999
02:33:43 <HackEso> let's see what the bridge does with long lines. they should just be truncated. \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ 28 \ 29 \ 30 \ 31 \ 32 \ 33 \ 34 \ 35 \ 36 \ 37 \ 38 \ 39 \ 40 \ 41 \ 42 \ 43 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ 48 \ 49 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 55 \ 56 \ 57 \ 58 \ 59 \ 60 \ 61 \ 62 \ 63 \ 64 \ 65 \ 66 \ 67 \ 68 \ 69 \ 70 \ 71 \ 72 \ 73 \ 74 \ 75 \ 76 \ 77 \ 78
02:51:19 <esolangs> <b_jonas> <CTCP>ACTION waves to the bridge<CTCP>
02:51:34 <b_jonas> I guess clients might differ in how they render that
02:53:05 <int-e> Hmm. <b_jonas> AACTION waves to the bridgeA with inverted As.
02:56:08 <user3456> int-e: how did you send that without the bridge forwarding it?
02:58:13 <int-e> IRC has two kinds of messages, PRIVMSG (ordinary messages, usually /msg) and NOTICE (secondary messages, /notice) ... both types can have a channel as the target (here, ##esoteric), and the bridge only forwards thr former type. So what I'm doing is /msg ##esoteric <...>
02:58:45 <int-e> Hah, /notice at the end, of course. Muscle memory took over, or something.
02:59:04 <esolangs> <Sgeo> Why is there a github for logs?
03:01:13 <esolangs> <int-e> Sgeo: no particular reason; the attitude is, they're there, they're public, so they should be listed in the topic
03:17:44 <fizzie> The thing with notices is, the client-side presentation is all over the place. Especially in irssi, where they get the channel name for no reason.
03:18:01 <fizzie> I did consider forwarding them too, though.
03:18:21 <user3456> In Hexchat, it also shows the channel name
03:18:33 <user3456> like this: [11:01:50] -int-e/##esoteric- that worked
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03:19:42 <alex-resist> https://youtu.be/T0NYZDGTA5g the l0de radio hour is live! IRC's FINEST HOUR, the late night call in show where you are the star! Call in live, tonight's episl0de: A Small White Dog
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03:20:16 <fizzie> Well, the first forwarded spam.
03:20:40 <fizzie> Technically all bot replies are supposed to be NOTICEs, and no bot should ever automatically reply to a NOTICE. But nobody actually follows the first half of that. It would entirely prevent botloops, though.
03:21:44 <esolangs> <user3456> At least libera.chat's antispam kicked in
03:22:13 <fizzie> RFC 2812: "The difference between NOTICE and PRIVMSG is that automatic replies MUST NEVER be sent in response to a NOTICE message. -- This is typically used by services, and automatons (clients with either an AI or other interactive program controlling their actions)."
03:23:12 <int-e> well that went out of the window when mIRC came along, didn't it
03:23:21 <int-e> and turned notices into popups
03:24:31 <shikhin> irssi hilights me on channel wide notices too.
03:24:32 <int-e> (that's probably, and hopefully, no longer the case)
03:25:42 <int-e> shikhin: check the /hilight settings? I'd expect that notices are mentioned somewhere in their explicitely then, but I'm not sure
03:41:25 <shachaf> Can I also have any messages mentioning my name be ignored?
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03:53:17 <d33cee> https://youtu.be/T0NYZDGTA5g the l0de radio hour is live! IRC's FINEST HOUR, the late night call in show where you are the star! Call in live, tonight's episl0de: A Small White Dog
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03:58:44 <user3456> Sorry about the nickname change spam
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06:13:06 <esolangs> [[Assign]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83167 * AndrewBayly * (+2258) Created page with "Assign is an esoteric programming language that is a subset of JavaScript. In Assign there are no assignment, increment or decrement operators. ==Strategy== I found that to w..."
06:14:13 <esolangs> [[Assign]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83168&oldid=83167 * AndrewBayly * (+82)
06:15:10 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83169&oldid=83166 * AndrewBayly * (+88)
06:20:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kwes * New user account
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06:21:44 <DCatcher> /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\
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06:23:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83170&oldid=83153 * Kwes * (+185)
06:24:29 <esolangs> [[User:Kwes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83171 * Kwes * (+12) Created page with "making stuff"
06:33:05 <esolangs> [[Yogurt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83172&oldid=83141 * Ilaylevy * (-4)
06:45:40 <myname> i'm a bit confused where those bots come from. like, is it someone from new freenode to annoy people that switched?
06:56:02 <sknebel> it's very similar to previous spam waves... feels like just people who enjoy getting people to react to it
07:10:37 <keegan> the conspiracist in me thinks all this drama is manufactured to benefit Discord
07:10:46 <keegan> chaos, Discord, confusion, bureaucracy, aftermath
07:11:01 <keegan> also I'm still in freenode #esoteric and it's "fun" to see my messages mirrored there
07:12:39 <myname> Confusion would be a good name for a discord competitor
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07:18:59 <keegan> i mean one of their major competitors is Slack
07:19:09 <keegan> which I assume is a reference to the Church of the SubGenius, an offshoot of Discordianism
07:19:15 <keegan> which came first I'm not sure
07:19:57 <keegan> but this is one of these "holy shit, the people in my cohort of awkward weird nerds grew up and are running the world now" things
07:20:33 <keegan> meanwhile I briefly worked for an also-ran web chat service based on Zephyr (named Zulip, now open source) and got fired for being depressed before my shares vested
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07:34:40 <vrakfall> /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\
07:34:42 <vrakfall> /!\ JOIN #HAMRADIO TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\
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08:10:37 <keegan> relay bot not so good with CTCP ACTION
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08:36:01 <Taneb> keegan: how's it going
08:38:00 <esolangs> <nakilon> fizzie also you can blacklist the "/!\" substring
09:04:06 <fizzie> keegan: You can opt out from being bridged if you like, by saying "brctl: ignore keegan" on this side.
09:06:10 <fizzie> I'll filter out /!\ though that's pretty specific to this particular spam wave.
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09:07:37 <fizzie> I faintly remember some #hamradio-themed spam from time before the split, wonder why that one gets picked on so much.
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09:12:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hmmmmmmmm * New user account
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09:13:15 <fizzie> Turns out /!\ is a bad word and shouldn't be forwarded. (Just testing.)
09:19:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83173&oldid=83170 * Hmmmmmmmm * (+213) Add my user introduction
09:19:06 <esolangs> [[User:Hmmmmmmmm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83174 * Hmmmmmmmm * (+185) Make my own account page
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09:54:07 <esolangs> <nakilon> I'll suspend my twitch IRC analytics project and probably delete my account since they made another post where they continue falsely accusing their users in "hating women" to censor the fact that they became a platform for prostitution
09:57:08 <esolangs> <nakilon> that was the only network where I currently saw the Tags IRC v3 feature
10:01:25 <nakilon> 18:34:24 <fizzie> If IRC had past message editing capabilities, I'd make that thing collapse consecutive edits the same way the recent changes page does.
10:01:59 <nakilon> https://ircv3.net/ - IRCv3 Features - Grouping related messages to simplify collapsing and display of those messages to users.
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10:04:49 <fizzie> Yeah, I saw that mentioned somewhere.
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10:14:05 <nakilon> this editing/collapsing stuff changes things a lot
10:14:37 <nakilon> we are used to that if we open the logs we see the same that we see in chat
10:15:18 <nakilon> now we have to add some post processing to convert logs to "real" chat log
10:16:58 <nakilon> and how are we supposed to split logs by days if there was a message collapse over the 00:00
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11:17:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HaleyHalcyon * New user account
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11:18:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83175&oldid=83173 * HaleyHalcyon * (+233) /* Introductions */
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11:22:05 <fizzie> int-e: So I went ahead and had a pre-discussion with Libera staff, and they're okay with the notion of having an 'esolangs' community at #esolangs, but having #esoteric forward to it for "quite some time", which I think probably means "up until a group of aspiring magicians wants to claim it for their rites". I think I'd be happy with that? People can still keep making the jokes on the rare occasion
11:22:11 <fizzie> someone comes in confused.
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11:25:46 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83176&oldid=79839 * HaleyHalcyon * (+732) Example added: Truth machine
11:25:56 <fizzie> int-e: So I went ahead and had a pre-discussion with Libera staff, and they're okay with the notion of having an 'esolangs' community at #esolangs, but having #esoteric forward to it for "quite some time", which I think probably means "up until a group of aspiring magicians wants to claim it for their rites". I think I'd be happy with that? People can still keep making the jokes on the rare occasion
11:26:02 <fizzie> someone comes in confused.
11:32:18 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83177&oldid=83176 * HaleyHalcyon * (+269) /* Parts */ Disambiguations
11:32:40 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83178&oldid=83177 * HaleyHalcyon * (-2) /* Parts */ Format error
11:46:00 <esolangs> [[User:HaleyHalcyon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83179 * HaleyHalcyon * (+1753) Created page with "== MarioLANG test cases == The code is run on the sandbox at TIO.run. === Multiple elevators on the same X coordinate === ==== Code ==== > :! "===== > ! ==..."
11:56:18 <nakilon> do I understand right that it's practically impossible to add a language to https://tio.run/# ? because the last commit I see in their repo 2 years ago and there are hanging pull requests in both repos
12:01:59 <nakilon> it would be nice if there was some frontend for arbitrary languages execution so I would need only provide a backend
12:02:10 <fizzie> I've heard of TIO, but I don't think I've ever actually used it.
12:02:13 <fizzie> Lovely language list, though: probably the first time I've seen Quadrefunge, Quintefunge, Sexefunge and Septefunge mentioned anywhere.
12:02:38 <esolangs> [[User:HaleyHalcyon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83180&oldid=83179 * HaleyHalcyon * (+873) /* MarioLANG test cases */
12:05:57 <esolangs> [[User:HaleyHalcyon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83181&oldid=83180 * HaleyHalcyon * (+120) /* Wall/floor interchangeability */
12:06:25 <nakilon> looks like they were mirroring every language https://github.com/TryItOnline?q=&type=&language=&sort=
12:06:47 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83182&oldid=83178 * HaleyHalcyon * (+74) /* Instructions to Mario */
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12:33:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83183&oldid=83115 * Fizzie * (+690) /* Freenode and the future */ On community registration.
12:38:15 <sknebel> nakilon: I wonder if with webassembly and such it'd be viable to make something like this that doesnt need server resources (outside hosting the files somewhere), runs all the interpreters in the browser
12:40:33 <fizzie> Kind of reminds me of how the Internet Archive has all those old pieces of old software in a playable state by running the emulation in the browser.
12:52:29 <myname> should be easily possible. there are cross compiled linuxes that run entirelyy in browsers
12:57:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, we can go to #esolangs . it matches the esolangs.org domain name that points to the wiki.
12:57:52 <esolangs> <ksdfj> nakilon: re TIO yeah, the chatroom's starboard https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/44255 explains why
12:58:32 <esolangs> <b_jonas> fungot, what brand of DVD demagnetizer do you recommend?
12:58:33 <esolangs> <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i should like us to be very significant and important, being adopted in due course should that appear necessary. finally, our obligation, as it sometimes does not immediately become obligatory and an essential service. with regard to these circumstances it is believed that this issue is already covered by the definition of the fields of finance for innovation and growth.
12:59:27 <esolangs> <ksdfj> "it would be nice if there was some frontend for arbitrary languages execution so I would need only provide a backend" you mean you'd be willing to host it?
13:00:04 <esolangs> <ksdfj> i assume the frontend is somewhere in the github
13:01:20 <b_jonas> nakilon: you could just have it run an interpreter, since you have a high chance that you can find an interpreter ran in a language that TIO can already run
13:01:58 <b_jonas> you may need to do some porting, but probably not more porting than you'd need to do to run the same interpreter in browser client side
13:06:39 <esolangs> <ksdfj> i recently learnt of a wasm interpreter for k https://ktye.github.io/, for which i believe the author wrote their own c-dialect to wasm converter https://github.com/ktye/i/blob/master/_/i3/w/readme
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14:03:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * T0mi10 * New user account
14:07:17 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83184&oldid=82736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+215) Add input, Truth-machine, and cat program
14:10:30 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83185&oldid=83184 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-66) /* Examples */ Remove annoying ZWSPs, and prevent them
14:13:01 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83186&oldid=83185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) Remove the last ZWSP
14:14:20 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83187&oldid=83186 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Commands */ Bangyen's suggestion
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14:22:50 <int-e> fizzie: sounds reasonable to me, and about what I'd expect from policy etc.
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15:04:43 <nakilon> b_jonas I mean I just need a frontend for RASEL; don't want to reinvent this webpage with forms and stuff
15:05:42 <nakilon> the backend can be trivially done serverless in Cloud Run
15:06:46 <nakilon> and even moderated call rate via additional layer with a lightweight webserver that would track how often it's being spinned
15:06:49 -!- arseniiv has joined.
15:10:26 <arseniiv> TIL Excel has lambda for some time now
15:10:48 <arseniiv> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/blog/lambda-the-ultimatae-excel-worksheet-function
15:11:06 <esolangs> <arseniiv> oh, so bridge is working?
15:15:59 <fizzie> Yep, though I think I'll be moving this end of it to `#esolangs`.
15:16:08 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I heard about that. I don't think it's a big deal. we always had excel 3 named functions where you just slap the expressions you want to evaluate into cells of a macro worksheet, with possibly local names they assign to, assign a name marked as a macro function to their first cell, and then if you call that function from a formula, it evaluates the cells in order from top to bottom, unless
15:16:14 <b_jonas> you call GOTO or similar functions. there is one serious limitation of course: whe a macro function (which you can call from expressions in cells) is executed, unlike when a macro procedure (which you can't call that way) is executed, most builtins that cause side-effects, such as change the formula of a cell, have their side effects silently suppressed, so it's hard to cause side effects from a macro
15:16:20 <b_jonas> function other than changing the values (not the formulas) of the cells of that macro function (other formulas can then refer to those values)
15:17:32 <b_jonas> the main way that macro worksheets differ from normal worksheets btw is that on normal worksheets, all cells have their value recomputed automatcally every time their formula or a cell they recursively depend on changes (you can turn this off, but that's unusual), while in a macro worksheet, cells are evaluated only when a macro is running and its program counter points to that cell
15:18:11 <nakilon> didn't use Excel since like 2012
15:18:13 <b_jonas> TODO for self: document esowiki (the bot) on the wiki, especially its ignore statement
15:18:34 <b_jonas> nakilon: I said "forever". this existed since the earliest time I've seen Excel.
15:18:57 <nakilon> Google Docs Spreadsheets have Google Apps Script that can do all the calculations and integrate with the rest of Docs and Google services
15:19:38 <arseniiv> interesting, didn’t read anywhere about macro worksheets
15:19:55 <nakilon> not only it allows defining functions, those "macros" can be ran on their own on trigger or schedule, centralised, no edit wars
15:20:29 <nakilon> people literally run the whole businesses in Spreadsheets with GAS since then
15:20:56 <nakilon> schools, some shops, warehouses
15:21:26 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it's not a story the Jedi would tell you
15:21:36 <nakilon> then it got all integrated with Bigdata and other data processing services of Google with bells and whistles
15:22:05 -!- esolangs has joined.
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15:28:45 -!- HackEso has joined.
15:29:32 <fizzie> (Loading configurations without killing the process would be far too bourgeoisie thing to allow.)
15:37:40 -!- nakilon has joined.
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15:41:36 <cd> brctl: help
15:41:36 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
15:41:45 <cd> where is this bridged
15:42:53 -!- int-e has joined.
15:43:18 -!- sknebel has joined.
15:43:24 * int-e weeps for #esoteric
15:47:16 <fizzie> `` (quote '#esoteric'; grWp '#esoteric') | wc -l # int-e: at least we'll still have all these references for who knows how long
15:50:18 -!- river has joined.
15:50:30 <HackEso> PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_NICK=b_jonas \ IRC_IDENT=~x \ IRC_HOST=catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=#esolangs \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8
15:50:37 <b_jonas> yes, we're on #esolangs now
15:51:19 -!- shikhin has joined.
15:51:19 <b_jonas> of course, as fizzie said, the move won't officially be official until we edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal
15:52:20 <b_jonas> and we might want to wait until the admins get an official webchat working, rather than using kiwi
15:53:05 * cd stops munching on kiwi and hides the skins
15:53:08 <b_jonas> the name "libera" still sounds stupid to me because it sounds like the diaper brand "Libero"
15:53:10 <cd> hm? kiwi? what kiwi
15:53:43 <fizzie> For the community registration, what I have is a "verbal" ack (plus settings for this channel), I've not gotten a reply yet to the formal email. So we might wait for that as well.
15:53:56 -!- wib_jonas has joined.
15:53:59 <wib_jonas> cd: https://kiwiirc.com/nextclient/irc.libera.chat
15:54:12 * cd knows what kiwiirc is
15:54:18 -!- Taneb has joined.
15:54:21 <fizzie> I can't use kiwi, I'm slightly allergic. :/
15:54:23 * cd was making a bad joke
15:55:31 <fizzie> Should've taught that bridge about CTCP ACTION while I was mucking with it.
15:56:12 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Client Quit).
15:56:18 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83188&oldid=83003 * Tomhe * (+13) /* Bit-specific */ Bit-specific changed to Words-value (aligned syntax update).
15:56:57 <nakilon> guys, does /whois show my "Actual hostname" for you?
15:57:50 <nakilon> okay, since I see that field and could not be sure
15:58:26 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, the irc server tells you your real hostname even while you're cloaked, because you're inside the cloak
15:59:12 <nakilon> because клоака is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca
16:01:25 <b_jonas> it's a physical constraint. if you wanted to see your cloak, you would have to move your eyes outside the cloak, and then people could see your eyes.
16:02:48 <b_jonas> if you still want that, make another connection to the server
16:03:11 <cd> uh can't you just
16:03:14 <cd> ask nickserv
16:03:25 <cd> `/msg nickserv info USERNAME HERE`
16:03:26 <HackEso> /msg? No such file or directory
16:03:39 <cd> river: /home/> _
16:04:27 <HackEso> catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu
16:04:34 <fizzie> Oh, right, fungot. Hmm.
16:05:05 <fizzie> I guess I should keep it on the side that has more people planning to use it, which might be this one.
16:05:11 <b_jonas> cd: or /msg perlbot arg &h
16:05:23 <b_jonas> you can ask any sufficiently powerful bot
16:05:29 <cd> "Fungot is missing!", a hit educational game for the SNES.
16:05:36 <Taneb> Can you run multiple Fungotia?
16:06:08 <fizzie> Almost. I'd just need to never run ^save on one of them, or configure different state files.
16:06:20 <fizzie> But I don't know if the world is ready for more than one fungot.
16:06:20 <nakilon> don't let funge start growing
16:06:32 <b_jonas> I don't think we are ready for that
16:07:43 <nakilon> I wonder if there were IRC viruses
16:07:57 <nakilon> that find bots with backdoors to replicate
16:08:08 <b_jonas> nakilon: there were at least malware, not necessarily virus
16:08:23 <b_jonas> nakilon: not targeting bots, but very buggy IRC clients
16:08:33 <b_jonas> perhaps also targeting bots, I'm not sure
16:08:53 <fizzie> Eggdrop was so popular, I'm sure there must've been a vulnerability in there somewhere.
16:08:54 <b_jonas> I guess you could find some of the bot loops viruses
16:09:15 <cd> i still wonder how fast a bot that's programmed to join any channel mentioned near it would spread across a network
16:09:40 -!- fungot has joined.
16:10:12 <nakilon> perhaps there is a limit of channels you can join
16:10:21 <cd> there is, i forget what it is
16:10:24 <HackEso> CHANLIMIT=#:250`? No such file or directory
16:10:30 <cd> but it's pretty high and you could simply open a new connection
16:10:50 <fizzie> Not sure if it's that specific limit, I just had the connection-open numerics from fungot's debug screen.
16:10:50 <fungot> fizzie: how come there's a 3rd arguement now? http://mumble.net/campbell/ tmp/ restrict.html for what i need
16:11:26 <b_jonas> cd: you could just use alis to find channels
16:11:33 <b_jonas> it's not all channels, because channels can be hidden from that, but still
16:11:37 <cd> yes, but i meant what i asked
16:11:57 <nakilon> while I was tracking twitch I had an idea to note the raids after the stream (that's a thing when streamer leaves and moves all his viewers to some another stream, keeping the audience within the website and making a social connetion with a selected target in that way)
16:12:29 <nakilon> so it would be possible to slowly build a graph of people who tend to raid each other
16:13:48 <int-e> . o O ( Streamers who raided X also raided Y and Z. )
16:14:28 <int-e> yes there's an alis
16:15:03 <fizzie> I made a "who's having an affair with who" chart for a... well, let's call it a forum, once, based on people mentioning the names of other members.
16:15:06 <int-e> Less obviously, Sigyn is ozone, eir is litharge.
16:15:29 <fizzie> Someone's name was a pretty common word, they got an edge with everyone in the graph.
16:15:39 <fizzie> GraphViz was having problems rendering it, but that's not a surprise.
16:16:10 <b_jonas> let's speed up its bootstrapping. dear bot who joins every channel mentioned, please JOIN
16:16:13 <b_jonas> ##chat,##electronics,##hardware,##math,##politics,##programming,#ansible,#bash,#bitcoin,#c,#C++,#centos,#datahoarder,#debian,#elixir,#emacs,#fedora,#freebsd,#gentoo,#gentoo-chat,#git,#go-nuts,#guix,#hamradio,#haskell,#idleRPG,#ircv3,#irssi,#javascript,#libera,#libera-dev,#libera-offtopic,#libera-overflow,#lineageos,#linux,#lisp,#lobsters,#matrix,#musl,#networking,#nixos,#openbsd,#osdev,#perl,#postgresql,
16:16:19 <b_jonas> #python,#raspberrypi,#reddit-sysadmin,#reprap,#rockylinux,#security,#sway,#thelongue,#ubuntu,#vim,#voidlinux,#weechat,#wikimedia-operations,#wikipedia-en,#windows,#zig,#znc
16:16:36 -!- arseniiv has joined.
16:16:50 <cd> i'd write such a bot but i feel i'd make the admins annoyed with me
16:20:11 <arseniiv> it’s a bit interesting that all ideal triangles are congruent
16:22:01 <arseniiv> noncongruence starts with quadrilaterals in dimension 2, though I suspect non-planar quadrilaterals are again all congruent?..
16:22:26 <b_jonas> cd: you'd have to make it leave channels that are almost empty or else your join quota will fill up quickly
16:26:51 -!- anonymous has joined.
16:27:18 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint("#,"+",".join(["#%c" % k for k in range(33,126) if k != 44]))
16:27:19 <HackEso> #,#!,#",##,#$,#%,#&,#',#(,#),#*,#+,#-,#.,#/,#0,#1,#2,#3,#4,#5,#6,#7,#8,#9,#:,#;,#<,#=,#>,#?,#@,#A,#B,#C,#D,#E,#F,#G,#H,#I,#J,#K,#L,#M,#N,#O,#P,#Q,#R,#S,#T,#U,#V,#W,#X,#Y,#Z,#[,#\,#],#^,#_,#`,#a,#b,#c,#d,#e,#f,#g,#h,#i,#j,#k,#l,#m,#n,#o,#p,#q,#r,#s,#t,#u,#v,#w,#x,#y,#z,#{,#|,#}
16:28:35 <cd> i own #1, it is the best channel
16:28:42 <Taneb> cd: I had a friend who wrote a program that just... repeatedly instantiated a new bot that'd connect and joing a particular channel.
16:28:54 <Taneb> They got to about 20 before a staff member joined and told them to stop
16:28:58 <Taneb> (this was pre-2017 freenode)
16:29:13 <cd> well yea if you're making that many connections someone's gonna notice aha
16:29:26 <int-e> cd: you need #one as well, and #uno etc.
16:30:31 <cd> That would be channel hoarding
16:30:56 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:30:57 <int-e> just trying to help *d&r*
16:31:56 <b_jonas> Taneb: freenode has some limit on how many clients can connect from one address, and they even have some [A-Z]line feature that gives excemption from that for heavily NATted addresses like convention centers or universities
16:32:19 -!- river has joined.
16:32:31 <b_jonas> at least one Ircnet server has a rule of at most three connections per host
16:32:40 <b_jonas> though of course this gets more complicated with ipv6
16:34:28 <b_jonas> the usual workaround for spammers is to buy a botnet made of a large number of random people's home computers acquired via vulnerabilities
16:36:07 -!- arseniiv_ has joined.
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16:38:01 <cd> yea, i-lines
16:38:17 <cd> @hellomouse.net had one on freenode as we have a bouncer. We need to get that back
16:38:38 -!- arseniiv has quit (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by arseniiv_))).
16:38:45 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
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16:39:16 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
16:39:35 <V> brctl: help ignore
16:39:35 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
16:40:07 <V> fizzie: bridged to wherems't?
16:41:18 -!- anonymous has quit (*.net *.split).
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16:42:29 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
16:42:43 <V> brctl: ignore
16:42:43 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
16:42:50 <V> brctl: ignored
16:42:50 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/shachaf libera/shachaf
16:45:38 -!- xkapastel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:46:09 <esolangs> <fizzie> I'm guessing the libera side has just lost the connection or something.
16:46:55 <esolangs> <b_jonas> does it still bridge?
16:47:33 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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16:55:10 <b_jonas> ooh, esolangs1. let's see if it will loop with the other esolangs
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16:55:41 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
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16:58:59 <b_jonas> so fungot, you're here now? what brand of DVD demagnetizer would you recommend?
16:59:00 <fungot`> b_jonas: thank you, and perhaps helped by the house, calls for a dual legal basis before the court of justice against this untimely change. no-one, neither the european parliament. you were asked to work to establish the partnership was still pending.
17:00:23 <b_jonas> yeah, I guessed you wouldn't give a straight answer. in that case, fungot, what features should I pay attention to when I buy a DVD demagnetizer?
17:00:23 <fungot`> b_jonas: mr president, commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, i will be coming onto the market products that could compete with those now circulating on the internal market. in some respects even improves on the commission to establish a policy that undermines the quality of legislation and the consequence therefore is, if we go back to two points here. first of all, only one additional country has come on board.
17:02:15 <b_jonas> I see, fungot. you emphasize the difference between ones produced locally and east asian knockoffs
17:02:15 <fungot`> b_jonas: mr president, i will be speaking about these further in our committees, in full or in part.
17:02:31 <cd> this network had lead to some fun things
17:02:34 <cd> https://thelounge.hellomouse.net/uploads/cd24a5123916a651/image.png
17:04:10 <fizzie> That's how it should've responded.
17:04:21 <V> brctl: ignored
17:04:21 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/shachaf libera/V libera/shachaf
17:04:30 <fizzie> (If you don't *want* it to ignore you, feel free to undo it with unignore.)
17:04:31 <V> brctl: ignore freenode/V
17:04:36 -!- cd has changed nick to bi.
17:04:41 <V> I guess it just fell over
17:05:08 <fizzie> Yeah, a lot of clients ping-timeouted at the same time.
17:05:29 -!- variable has joined.
17:05:36 <fizzie> Also poor old little fungot got a ` growing on it.
17:05:36 <fungot`> fizzie: mr president, a lot fewer trees, some 140 million. that trend is the same as any other beef in europe.
17:05:50 <fizzie> That's a lot of trees.
17:06:08 -!- fungot` has changed nick to fungot.
17:06:15 <arseniiv> dear fungot what do you thing of ideal tesselations and all that?
17:06:15 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president-in-office, if the house adopts these amendments, we will always be relative to our dependence and reliance on nato which still owns the essential military hardware and which enabled us to develop the criteria relating to its independence and its considerable competence in issues that are sensitive for the european political institutions during the past months. these men were put behind bars, although the
17:06:47 <fizzie> A consummate politician, never a clear answer.
17:07:07 <arseniiv> I can’t even parse it completely
17:07:55 <arseniiv> these men were put behind bars => I see cell borders here. I think fungot is perfectly aware what was asked of them
17:07:56 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, i would also like to thank you, first of all about the allocation. regarding parliament's team itself, we still believe that coordination, cooperation and shared responsibility, whereby all those involved for the last two years, so we cannot blame the commission) is also necessary to be able to get down to finalising at the earliest.
17:08:02 -!- voidio has joined.
17:08:28 <HackEso> a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt
17:08:41 -!- iovoid has quit (*.net *.split).
17:08:44 -!- voidio has changed nick to iovoid.
17:08:46 <arseniiv> well, I’m certainly not the one who allocated the space for fungot
17:08:50 -!- variable has left.
17:09:55 -!- bi has changed nick to cd.
17:10:10 <arseniiv> fungot: and at last, do you know any religious hymnes and do you recite them in evening?
17:10:10 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, the wto negotiations and with a view to its full extent if it wishes to integrate? also, may i begin by reminding you that i cannot give you the following: could we not express our disappointment? the scope of the programme.
17:10:12 -!- anonymous has changed nick to river.
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17:13:16 <arseniiv> also that ideal polygon tesselation proves we can easily represent any free group on finite generators via hyperbolic motions: for n generators, just take a tesselation into regular ideal (2n)-gons
17:13:54 <arseniiv> no having to include one free group in a two-generator one
17:14:47 <arseniiv> int-e: b_jonas: you might have been interested ↑
17:16:16 <arseniiv> I mean, b_jonas might have already said something like that last time, but then I didn’t understand completely
17:16:19 <cd> fizzie: What's fungot licensed as, when it comes to using/modifying it?
17:16:19 <fungot> cd: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i only got to see the financial resources for this programme is important because we need them to understand each other well. as regards the international conferences we have been obliged, with the agreement of any substance. i can assure the honourable member will surely agree, this is a form of development. i would like to single out the last initiative of the british authorities were m
17:16:41 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, tha'ts what I tried to say at https://esolangs.org/logs/2021-05.html#ldI
17:16:43 -!- \a has joined.
17:17:01 <\a> fizzie, What is the license of fungot?
17:17:01 <fungot> \a: mr president, since the long march, and it is now the essential question, a philosophical choice. europe will continue to press the council of ministers will adopt them.
17:17:09 <cd> i already asked aha
17:17:45 <cd> fungot has great answers to our questions. What is the meaning of life, fungot?
17:17:45 <fungot> cd: madam president, i should say that my group believes that the lack of safe access for relief agencies to people in a country with disastrous social conditions in which those who have been able to reach agreement on the reform of the commission in agenda 2000 will further increase the speed of technological advance, narrow consumer choice, increase the capacity of economies to adapt to the new member states can always introd
17:17:53 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I glad to see that now; thanks nonetheless
17:17:56 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the illustrations are under https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Infinite-order_tilings
17:18:07 <fizzie> cd: \a: Heh. Yeah, looks like I never actually chose. Let's say MIT for the code, and I'll look at updating the repository to reflect that.
17:18:14 -!- \a has changed nick to fg.
17:18:19 -!- fg has changed nick to \a.
17:18:22 <cd> sounds good
17:18:36 <fizzie> The language models aren't publicly available anywhere, though.
17:18:52 <b_jonas> fungot's code size is so small that the license text might take up a significant part of the shirt
17:18:52 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, commissioner, you will note is specifically referred to in the question of comitology. this is partly explained by hizbollah’s outrageous tactic of using human stem cells to achieve the objectives in the field of homeopathic medicine.
17:19:50 <fizzie> It's actually just the babble generation subsection (lines 129-173 of fungot.b98) that's on the shirt.
17:19:51 <fungot> fizzie: thank you for the opportunity to read the information. against this background, the commission, in order to solve them effectively. how, moreover, i feel that the message and practice stemming from laeken are contradictory. they are now lying there during the winter, when orders decline, this credit on their working procedures or, as in portugal and poland for instance, paragraph 4, the commission is full of enthusiasm
17:20:19 <\a> The MIT license is quite small
17:21:29 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thanks. I came to the idea by drawing a sketch of {4, ∞}, precisely!
17:22:29 <arseniiv> fizzie: wait where do one finds such a shirt?
17:23:05 <fizzie> arseniiv: I just got one printed at one of those "you upload a .jpg, we email you a shirt" places, I had a free code for one.
17:23:12 <arseniiv> can’t express how I love the conformal disk model
17:23:14 <fizzie> I think I've got the specific .jpg online somewhere, let's see.
17:23:38 <arseniiv> I wonder how it looks on a real shirt though :)
17:23:54 <fizzie> Actually, what I had online is a photo of the real shirt, so you're in luck.
17:23:57 <arseniiv> or do they show shirt mock-ups?
17:23:58 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/fungotshirt.jpg
17:23:58 <fungot> fizzie: firstly, i should like to illustrate this link by referring to oil, as ' integral elements of european policy, is a situation that we have a unanimous report from the relevant committee.
17:24:26 <fizzie> It's an immediate conversation starter for sure.
17:25:37 <fizzie> Also, I guess in theory if you're wearing it and don't know what to say to something, you could run it in your head to generate a reply.
17:25:38 <b_jonas> yeah, there's a nice visible jump table
17:25:43 <arseniiv> personally I have yet to wear any custom-printed tee, just doesn’t seem that urgent
17:26:20 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Also, I guess in theory if you're wearing it and don't know what to say to something, you could run it in your head to generate a reply. => lool. But you’d need a model loaded somewhere too, though
17:26:37 <fizzie> Yeah, maybe keep one around as a printed book.
17:29:12 <b_jonas> or wear one of these crocheted hyperbolic planes as a skirt, they're fast to random access because you can draw a complete binary tree on them
17:29:22 <b_jonas> no need to mess with slowly seeking sectors like on a hard drive
17:30:38 <b_jonas> of course the linear seeking of a flat shirt is suitable for befunge code
17:30:46 <arseniiv> b_jonas: how is a euclidean skirt lesser for this purpose? Eventually you’ll need a microscope but is that that big an issue?
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17:33:51 <arseniiv> hm there is a chance of hyperbolic fungeoid out there. One could use those inclusions of n-generator free groups and extend programs by reimagining them as using a free group with more generators as a grid
17:34:11 <cd> hyperbolic fungoid would be... interesting
17:34:21 <cd> for one how would you reference memory, grid coordinates don't work anymore
17:34:33 <b_jonas> cd: there are coordinates usable for hyperbolic plane
17:34:50 <Taneb> How would you write the program
17:35:03 <fizzie> The Funge-98 Lahey-space is pretty funky on its own, even if it may look like a plane when you don't consider the wrapping.
17:36:02 <b_jonas> some people would use a specialized editor, just like they now do for writing Java programs, other people would just use C-x M-c M-butterfly , because it's still represented as a sequence of bytes
17:36:04 <arseniiv> we can even make arbitrary jumps like unfamous logo turtle would: (1) rotate in place a rational multiple of 2π and (2) go a rational amount in your current direction
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17:36:37 <keegan> is this the cool place to be
17:36:42 <arseniiv> we can afford a countable set of jump/rotate instructions just for this insanity
17:36:55 <Taneb> keegan: no, this is a channel full of weird nerds
17:37:08 <cd> i am not weird
17:37:18 <b_jonas> arseniiv: just use a finite generator
17:37:39 <Taneb> Weird nerds and a circular object that stores data
17:38:11 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hm in the end we’ll be able to unify all that inside some finite-generator free group, yeah, though only if the program is finite
17:38:12 <keegan> furthermore, i am a weird nerd
17:38:21 <Taneb> keegan: well then, this must be the cool place to be
17:38:51 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no, I mean a finite generator for finitely many rotate/jump instructions
17:39:00 <river> is it possible that zzo will join this irc channel?
17:39:31 <Taneb> river: it's certainly concievable
17:39:41 <Taneb> But who knows what zzo will do
17:39:45 <keegan> zzo will probably make his own irc network based on gopher or something
17:40:08 <fizzie> Well, we'll build a bridge to it when that happens.
17:40:34 <keegan> I learned the other day that Gopher is named for the mascot of the university where it was invented (University of Minnesota), in addition to being maybe a pun on "go for"
17:40:58 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah that’s what I read; but that’s equivalent for a program being finite, as it’ll be able to use only finitely many instructions. But I think it’ll be good to allow any rational rotations and translations in general
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17:43:06 <b_jonas> you'd allow the program to span a potentially unlimited part of a grid on the hyperbolic plane, just as saner fungeoids do on the euclidean plane. euclidean fungoids only need a few jump builtins too.
17:44:38 <imode> oh hey, neat, you got the forward.
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17:46:21 <b_jonas> imode: fizzie did that. "just couldn't resist", he said. I knew it was the #esoteric thing to do.
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17:47:35 <imode> thumbs-up from me.
17:48:44 <b_jonas> it'll probably only stay for a transitional period, then we'll just stabilize on one network, but still
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17:58:47 <b_jonas> arseniiv: they can help too, sure
17:58:59 <b_jonas> isn't his name "fungot" though?
17:59:00 <fungot> b_jonas: unfortunately, recent employment statistics for the whole of europe, is a most serious precedent that i would like, however, that development is undertaken in other areas. in july last year on behalf of the european parliament wants an interinstitutional agreement, the commission has not done for years.
17:59:20 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> isn't his name "fungot" though? => both first and last?
17:59:20 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, first of all, i would like to say how glad i am not in a very striking way something that is absolutely clear; and we must equally ensure that there is annoyance and disappointment over the commission, by the european union
17:59:42 <arseniiv> though hm of course it will be both first and last if it’s just a single one
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18:00:12 <arseniiv> > map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last]
18:00:13 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, of course, but this should be accompanied by an assessment of whether this sum really makes up for deficiencies in the actual texts of regulations relating to the situation prior to harmonisation. amendment no 3
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18:01:51 <esolangs> <arseniiv> > map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last]
18:01:51 <fungot> esolangs1: mr president, i should like to start by expressing my total support for an exceptional report and for the quality of bathing water quality, taking account of the obstacles which deny children access to a mother or father indeed, to make proposals for upward harmonisation of tobacco taxation. the point of view.
18:01:52 <esolangs> <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘a b’ with ‘[]’
18:01:52 <esolangs> <lambdabot> Expected type: [[Char]] -> a (b, d) ([Char], d)
18:02:09 <b_jonas> did you guys know there are online card payment providers that don't accept name ("exactly as it's on written on the card") with accented letter, and I have a card with an accented letter in my name embossed?
18:02:20 <fizzie> Whoops, not ignoring the bridge when it's got its altnick on.
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18:03:59 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, right. When you're not busy, there's an obvious lambdabot deficiency here.
18:04:20 <esolangs> <arseniiv> > let first = head in map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last]
18:04:21 <esolangs> <lambdabot> <hint>:1:34: error:
18:04:21 <esolangs> <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8203'
18:04:32 <esolangs> <arseniiv> > let first = head in map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last]
18:04:32 <fungot> esolangs1: mr president, on the fnord. the terrorists dragged him over the last two years.
18:04:34 <esolangs> <lambdabot> ["fungot","fungot"]
18:04:34 <fungot> esolangs1: madam president, i have a number of regional meetings with representatives of the presidency.
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18:05:30 <int-e> fizzie: mmm, obvious?
18:05:43 <esolangs> <b_jonas> [ 'jevalbot is still here, isn't it?'
18:05:44 <esolangs> <j-bot> b_jonas: | 'jevalbot is still here, isn't it?'
18:05:51 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> did you guys know there are online card payment providers that don't accept name ("exactly as it's on written on the card") with accented letter, and I have a card with an accented letter in my name embossed? => didn’t know they allow non-ASCII latin there
18:06:17 <b_jonas> I can't prove it because I obviously won't show a photo of my embossed credit card
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18:06:53 <fizzie> int-e: Well, obvious in the sense that someone tried to use it but it wasn't here.
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18:07:27 <b_jonas> the bank's homepage shows example credit card images, but they look fake, not real photos of credit cards
18:07:33 <fizzie> Maybe that's not quite the right adjective. Blatant? Something.
18:07:51 <int-e> fizzie: I don't know what to look for.
18:08:15 <arseniiv> over here, they transliterate to ASCII latin and do that quite liberally. I bet й and ий have more than two transliterations there in the wild. There were standards on that but not a single one and almost always they seem to be ignored
18:09:03 <fizzie> int-e: I mean, if I wasn't clear -- it's just not on this channel, it's on the deprecated one.
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18:09:38 <fizzie> (Also was that > prefix thing special too? I don't know for sure.)
18:09:48 <int-e> "it" in "use it" referred to the bot as a whole, not to a particular feature that was missing
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18:10:07 <arseniiv> imagine you can end up with ы and й transliterated the same (as y). Though it is the ambiguity that’s worse, as sometimes the card transliteration should for some reason match with transliterations in other places, or something. And you need to somehow control that the bureaucrats match them :D
18:10:49 <keegan> 11:06 < b_jonas> I can't prove it because I obviously won't show a photo of my embossed credit card
18:10:52 <keegan> you could redact the number
18:11:00 <keegan> just make sure to actually cover it with a black box or something
18:11:04 <keegan> rather than blurring or pixelating
18:11:20 <keegan> I don't think most people realize how easily you can recover even heavily blurred or pixelated text if you have a strong prior
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18:11:51 <keegan> and 16 digits with known spacing and font is a very strong prior
18:12:06 <arseniiv> keegan: yep usually it’s a gaussian blur or something alike
18:12:07 <fizzie> Someone had just failed redacting a PDF with the usual thing (opaque black box drawn on top, original data not removed), I thought nobody was really doing that anymore.
18:12:23 <int-e> fizzie: a Zen variation of not seeing the forest for the trees... there were no trees
18:12:24 <fizzie> I don't remember where, some piece of local government maybe.
18:12:28 <river> whats your unique ID?
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18:13:57 <b_jonas> I do redact some photos, like ones with people's faces, but I won't do that in this case
18:14:33 <fizzie> I know I should consider myself lucky for having an ASCII-only name, but I miss out on all these stories.
18:14:46 <int-e> fizzie: . o O ( When I said "send it electronically" I meant it to be printed and faxed, not sent by email! )
18:15:38 <keegan> i have an ascii name too
18:15:39 <cd> fizzie: Where might one find fungot-compatible models? :P
18:15:39 <fungot> cd: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, in his opinion, regretted that fewer and fewer borders in international crime. according to the rule of law; the european initiative for democracy and human rights.
18:16:25 <keegan> we are having a baby in about 15 weeks and are still deciding about names but we have decided firmly on using the printable ASCII subset (no NULs or BELs)
18:16:28 <keegan> my surname has a non-initial capital, which a lot of systems drop, but it hasn't caused me problems
18:16:34 <fizzie> cd: You might consider training some of your own. There's step-by-step instructions at https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/varikn/readme.txt for the "modern" training method.
18:16:34 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i would like to convey my objections at least, to that year and thus during the previous magps, which compensated for any reduction in working hours will help to create or improve counselling and legal advice centres which will be to report on their activities, for it is undoubtedly the case that if there is a wider rural world than farming and tourism development. this means that we have all made every ef
18:17:10 <b_jonas> ooh, I might look at that. thanks, fizzie
18:17:10 <arseniiv> keegan: (no NULs or BELs) => consoling
18:17:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: aren't ASCII-only names the majority in Finland?
18:17:47 <fizzie> I've never uploaded the pre-baked ones anywhere. I guess a lot of them are based on public materials, but maybe there's an ethics question in there somewhere too, cloning an AI vs. growing a new one in a similar environment, I don't know.
18:17:47 <b_jonas> I don't think it's something you need to consider lucky
18:18:09 <fizzie> b_jonas: It might be a majority, but it's not a huge majority, ä and ö are pretty common in names.
18:18:15 <keegan> wifey and I have different surnames so that complicates things too
18:18:22 <fizzie> I mean, it might be a 90% majority or something, but not like orders-of-magnitude majority.
18:19:07 <b_jonas> I imagine it could get funnier if you have a name with rare letters, and a bank official can't type it
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18:19:37 <fizzie> There's a lot of mojibake in snailmail from abroad, at least.
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18:19:45 <fizzie> (Based on friends' experiences.)
18:19:59 <cd> I'll have to find some good materials to bae it on
18:20:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, it's funny when shops in china can't correctly print non-ascii letters on the address stickers of mail
18:20:56 <fizzie> A friend of mine who moved to Australia has also been having trouble with his last name (two ä's), because different pieces of officialdom insist on spelling it differently, and then complain about mismatches.
18:21:02 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> I imagine it could get funnier if you have a name with rare letters, and a bank official can't type it => Ʌşŧȣλð Mŋödøczeς
18:21:02 <keegan> still amazed by https://celebraterickysargulesh.tumblr.com/post/31917763793/wizardishungry-an-image-of-a-post-envelope-with
18:21:27 <b_jonas> there are some short street names that are almost impossible to guess from the mangled addresses
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18:32:40 <b_jonas> they're supposed to be real names in universe, but I think he deliberately avoids real names out of universe to avoid offending someone real
18:33:03 <arseniiv> (still about the Polish one: we should probably ask kspalaiologos about what tsch-letter is correct, I don’t know at all how do they differ. Maybe one of them was for a hard ch and the other for the soft one)
18:33:07 <fizzie> I'm guessing Myyntti Raatalla is mock-Finnish, and that's just so bad when it comes to phoneme durations. "Myntti Raattala" you could have. In fact, I think Raattala is a real surname.
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18:34:03 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I think I might have heard about that polka from a friend, he translated it to some language IIRC
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18:34:31 <b_jonas> part of the in-universe story is about a person who wants to change their surname
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18:35:47 <b_jonas> we have that list analyzed in a few points of #esoteric logs. I think it even got changed to better represent the languages of regulars.
18:36:04 <b_jonas> which is why it doesn't have any spanish or portugese names by the way
18:36:11 <b_jonas> because we don't consider the Canaima guys regulars
18:37:27 <esolangs> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83189&oldid=82647 * EnilKoder * (+14) added John Conway to the list of deaths in the comment of unimplemented ideas
18:39:23 <b_jonas> though I guess we should add a russian name to it now
18:40:17 <fizzie> Huh, I always thought those names were a reflection of which languages are available in the thing.
18:40:31 <HackEso> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger datasets more influential \ -o, --target-offset change the target length offset used in the \
18:40:35 <HackEso> valid datasets: --brazilian --bulgarian --canadian-english-insane --catalan --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --esolangs --finnish --french --gaelic --german --german-medical --hebrew --irish --italian --manx --norwegian --ogerman --opcode --pokemon --polish --portuguese --russian --spanish --swedish \ default: --eng-1M
18:40:37 <HackEso> valid datasets: --brazilian --bulgarian --canadian-english-insane --catalan --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --esolangs --finnish --french --gaelic --german --german-medical --hebrew --irish --italian --manx --norwegian --ogerman --opcode --pokemon --polish --portuguese --russian --spanish --swedish \ default: --eng-1M
18:40:38 <arseniiv> though I couldn’t give an advice on that, as they are too diverse because of cultural mixing
18:41:35 <b_jonas> arseniiv: sure, most of the Hungarian names are mixed in too, and the easiest way to make an authentic sounding Hungarian name is to hungarianize the spelling and phonology of a fake foreign name
18:41:42 <arseniiv> like, not that diverse of course, but I think I would be a bad advisor nonetheless
18:42:04 <b_jonas> are there good fake pokemon name generator models?
18:42:22 <HackEso> pokemon? No such file or directory
18:42:27 <HackEso> pokemons? No such file or directory
18:42:54 <arseniiv> I bet HackEso had something for that, though you’d know better if it’s good
18:44:55 <b_jonas> it has the same problem: there are less than a thousand real pokemon names (right now; it will grow), so it's hard to generate fake ones that look real
18:46:01 <b_jonas> I tried to generate fake town names of Hungary, there the sample is like 2500, the best ones I got are "Rúgonya" and one that I forgot but that turned out to be the Hungarian name of some town outside of Hungary
18:46:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ah yes, I'm stupid
18:46:21 <HackEso> nectriken victinaracturtwig skitunky druddiursa cascoloss darumbrelibird lier bunny thundoublast tsareecko banetapod torb snorlax gigalitle leafeon klinklantini wigglyphlos wurmplumismagius macharjabug fomalakie
18:46:34 <arseniiv> the command was right here; I have no eyes and I must seem^W see
18:47:01 <b_jonas> thundoublast also sounds nice
18:47:12 <b_jonas> leafeon... isn't that real?
18:48:14 <arseniiv> klinklantini seems to have an affinity to alcohol
18:48:58 <arseniiv> are there inanimate-ish pokemon?
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18:59:31 <esolangs> <nakilon> `words --russian -o 2 20
18:59:32 <esolangs> <HackEso> помозноджан забытказывалешени недвыхъ каральвили делагоспит вижиша выноукрентагза сарканькенностивобесу силастера пятиилосильскологи encessemble наструиравноплюсь кализируютъ повидовлеей кобразведенцию эндзанный мишагосязато срабамбовал
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19:00:00 <HackEso> констваркова дедотают бушиться бегуньски ушисьмедстанов амвтрением диием сокон итропасность софено прибергу правьдана него едают полютретья испрусахь службылинъ кортзанных мускаакопрохо некдуфайтестиленно
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19:00:34 <esolangs> <nakilon> more like fake Bulgarian
19:01:06 <HackEso> дървостех сноших кьосветник разубедения гътнализврем борницата дюдюкаработите подоветнадрънча присарските засияване бъбряваш отцеждити ненажима уверно докаялия непокващ добифовавяващ известе одейки замърсващи
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19:03:31 <b_jonas> "бъбряваш" starts with "бъб", as if it deliberately tried to look not russian when you specify --bulgarian
19:04:54 <nakilon> кализируютъ -- that Ъ in the end is some from 19th century rules
19:04:55 <arseniiv_> <b_jonas> arseniiv: both have some of the brain in https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2663#comic => haha that’s perfect
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19:05:02 <b_jonas> of course that's exactly the kind of thing that these models can do well
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19:06:20 <b_jonas> hey, did you notice it has "encessemble" among russian words?
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19:06:54 <nakilon> yep, some garbage in the used dictionary
19:07:15 <HackEso> олярхад пам коэфф консоверно сильчагосуджей горой бразпагоники забадскаго манскомъ оного еваталис росшуюся вых водизмораснов порщитном девязнь ивкал инируемыхъ оттопа разденьков
19:07:21 <b_jonas> the short ones look more believable
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19:07:41 <arseniiv_> Bulgarian is funny to read even when it’s genuine. Hopefully Bulgarians wouldn’t take offense
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19:08:24 <arseniiv> that’s a common abbreviation for коэффициент coefficient
19:09:10 <b_jonas> and "ивкал" looks suspicious with its trailing "л"
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19:09:47 <nakilon> that's normal for past tense verbs
19:11:20 <b_jonas> in "инируемыхъ"? it looks especially silly after an "х"
19:11:53 <b_jonas> or do you mean in "манскомъ"?
19:13:24 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_sign#Final_yer_pre-1918
19:13:28 <b_jonas> "бразпагоники" looks like a good fake word
19:21:19 <b_jonas> ``` words --pokemon -o -4 20
19:21:20 <HackEso> rhypno luxe buizel mine crabra gastly sheliolitwig flygon foon mise smoem swamphan cate per quil celgon gole vestang maka arcant
19:21:41 <HackEso> carra rhyhorsea venusaur chirita tepin tyran oritarmada exploom grubi digon mushao bulbat dusken lopunne feebast aegiroc lumin skartic popotad staravile
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19:34:46 <nakilon> I like these symbols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script
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19:53:31 <arseniiv> someone said they are cute because of circles in most of them. I’d say they remind Greek-Latin-Cyrillic “continuum” but on the other hand are pretty alien, hence the effect. Tifinagh gives me a similar feeling
19:55:31 <arseniiv> but for instance Armenian script looks too alien to me, and less unique. I surely wouldn’t want to be an Armenian dyslectic
19:55:43 <arseniiv> oh, hadn’t watched that one yet
19:57:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I'm too used to all major scripts, the internet makes the world small, they don't look alien to me anymore
20:00:52 <esolangs> [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83190&oldid=83155 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+710) Added an introductory section and a reference section, and amended a mistake in the documentation of the Common Lisp implementation.
20:01:52 <b_jonas> latin, russian, serbian cyrillic, greek, latin vietnamese, georgian, armenian, hebrew, arabic, persian, chinese kanji, japenese kanji plus kana, hangul, the more common brahmic scripts (devanagari, thai, bengali), latin braille are the ones I see the most often. you can still surprise me with the infinte variety of rarer ones, but not armenian.
20:03:04 <b_jonas> and yes, it's the internet of geeks, so I also see akkadian cuneiform and futhark
20:03:16 <cd> hum, trying to comprehend how hackeso's umlbox works, can't seem to figure out how to get output out of it aha
20:03:27 <b_jonas> (and old hungarian runes, always used in a very non-authentic way)
20:03:36 <cd> everything else worked after some quick fixes to init.c
20:05:02 <b_jonas> cd: I used serial terminal in termbot, but I don't know how HackEso works
20:06:43 <cd> https://pybin.pw/LoXF seems it tries to use some tty device, but i'm not sure where ../tty1 is in that particular context
20:07:28 <arseniiv> b_jonas: in a sense, many to me too, though I don’t read most of them at any rate. Mostly from translations on food packaging and instruction manuals. But Armenian, to continue the example, is alien in its, well, guiding principles or something. It’s strange how do they read fluently letters that are almost exclusively vertical bars. Someone said most cyrillic letters aren’t as legible as latin because there are less ascenders and
20:07:28 <arseniiv> descenders, and often just vertical and horizontal strokes (in lowercase), and the first one seems worse. Though hand-written Armenian looked way more legible IIRC
20:08:36 <esolangs> [[RCEM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83191&oldid=83190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-52) /* References */ Use wikipedia link
20:09:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well sure, but in the same sense you could say Chinese kanji is the most readable
20:10:14 <arseniiv> well they are if you memorized them, I guess?
20:10:45 <arseniiv> they are pretty distinct in mass, and also they have some underlying logic, though not a too sane one due to historic process
20:10:53 <b_jonas> as for "exclusively vertical bars", that's how latin script was written in old codexes, so it depends on the font too
20:12:00 <arseniiv> I wouldn’t say A C D G K M N O P Q R S U/V X Y Z would still be exclusively vertical bars
20:12:14 <b_jonas> I mean look at the Gutenberg Bible, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Gutenberg_Bible_B42_Genesis.JPG , which set the traditions for how high quality typeset books are supposed to look like, heavily based on handwritten books
20:12:19 <arseniiv> or do you mean something like fractur?
20:12:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you have to take lowercase letters, uppercase is rare comapratively
20:12:38 <arseniiv> that’s evidently not too legible yeah
20:13:18 <b_jonas> it's like you draw a sequence of identical vertical lines with serifs on the top and bottom, and modify them with tiny additions or subtractions to turn them to different letters
20:13:21 <arseniiv> ah, so I definitely wasn’t right to think about as far as some roman inscriptions in all capitals
20:14:00 <b_jonas> the roman inscriptions that you see in lapidariums? those are readable to us because the capitals in the Times style fonts that we are used to are based directly on them so they're very similar,
20:14:07 <arseniiv> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Gutenberg_Bible_B42_Genesis.JPG => yep yep that’s the worst
20:14:12 <b_jonas> except that they use very different abbreviations and fewer spaces
20:14:52 <arseniiv> and those abbreviations too, yeah, I read about their diversity and changes in time several months ago
20:15:09 <amdj> Someone might want to arrange for the esolangs bot to be autovoiced. If someone were to hit it with a lot of URIs, it responding with a flood of URI details without at least voice status will trigger a flood notice to network staff, and one of our bots is currently configured to be twitchy about that (it will murder it).
20:15:53 <b_jonas> arseniiv: which abbreviations did you read about? the ones in roman era engraving, or the ones in hand-written mediæval latin codexes
20:16:52 <b_jonas> the difference is that the mediæval scribal ones use a lot of unique diacritics; the engraved latin ones are basically pure ascii latin letters with the occasional middle dot separator
20:19:32 <b_jonas> I have photos of a bunch of old steles with text in various scripts engraved in them, from museums
20:19:54 <b_jonas> there are even a few with hieroglyphs carefully engraved as concave rather than convex
20:19:59 <b_jonas> sorry, convex rather than concave
20:20:07 <b_jonas> can you imagine doing that to marble?
20:20:36 <b_jonas> of course that only happens in egyptian pyramids and similar
20:20:42 <b_jonas> not for more practical scribal documents
20:20:57 <b_jonas> those are all engraved the normal concave way
20:23:11 <b_jonas> the one that looks the most impressive IRL (though not necessarily in photo) is https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Stele_of_Ashurnasirpal_II_from_Nimrud
20:23:58 <b_jonas> carved from a single block of stone, quite tall, and looms over you, because you can get very close to it, since it's exhibited without any glass or plastic case surrounding it
20:31:32 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
20:33:26 <cd> I am super close to getting umlbox working
20:33:31 <cd> just output being a pain
20:33:42 <cd> stdout y u no work
20:33:44 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> can you imagine doing that to marble? => seems a lot of work!
20:35:23 <cd> mudem is broke
20:40:30 <cd> fizzie: sorry for the poke, trying to get umlbox working and the one thing holding me up is stdout. Not sure how to get it to actually give me the result of the ran command atm
20:41:17 <cd> oh i see you have a umlbox fork :P
20:41:19 <fizzie> All I remember about it is, it's very temperamental. Especially when it comes to the output.
20:41:52 <fizzie> Yeah, if you want the specifics of how it's set up for HackEso, it's that version of umlbox, and then the hackbot repo shows how it's being invoked.
20:42:03 <fizzie> I think I mostly just did a rewritten init.
20:42:27 <fizzie> And I think my setup is mudem-free, because I didn't need any multiplexing.
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20:44:13 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso#Implementation_details might also have some useful tidbit in it, who knows. Probably not, though.
20:44:44 <cd> Thanks, atm I'm considering the feasability of rehosting hackeso, again.
20:44:52 <cd> just for fun mostly
20:45:10 <cd> whole setup is quite interesting aha
20:46:28 <cd> and I certainly noticed it's temperamental ^^;
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21:10:45 <b_jonas> you haven't been here for a while
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21:12:47 <esolangs> <Sgeo> I should probably move over to Libera soonish
21:14:16 <Lykaina> Sgeo: when you do, let me know
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21:16:46 <Lykaina> river: and publicly logged
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21:20:36 <river> how do I delete my previous message
21:21:36 <fizzie> We should probably figure out a mechanism for that, actually. Though it's complicated by having it publicly logged to a bunch of independent places.
21:22:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think there are multiple incompatible IRC extensions for that
21:22:39 <b_jonas> at least one more native IRC one, and one that twitch uses to map its own message deletes
21:22:49 <Sgeo> The name of this place almost makes me sad that we won't get people coming in here thinking it's about ghosts
21:23:06 <fizzie> Sgeo: We've got #esoteric redirected here, so it's still quite possible.
21:23:09 <b_jonas> Sgeo: we will, because #esoteric redirects here
21:23:42 <b_jonas> Sgeo: we might not have Canaima people coming in here, so we should submit a patch to Canaima to forward them here, plus keep some amount of presence on freenode/#esoteric to redirect anyone who arrives there
21:24:34 <cd> agh what a pain
21:24:40 <cd> i got everything working only for no output again
21:26:46 <HackEso> Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
21:27:49 <nakilon> is there any language or other math system that has no zero?
21:28:31 <b_jonas> I think it's like the old AOL install CDs, but they mistyped the contact phone number, so everyone arrives here
21:29:52 <b_jonas> oh by the way, the television media card thingy that I just installed to my grandma's television (basically just follow the instructions on the paper manual to type in a few numbers and insert the card into the slot in the back of the TV) gives an error message that refers the user to an obsolete customer service short phone number that now call a different inappropriate service provider's customer
21:30:12 <b_jonas> the short phone numbers keep changing every few years, probably as a method of obfuscations so fewer people reach customer services
21:30:31 <nakilon> like changing IRC networks
21:31:28 <b_jonas> nakilon: there's Forte where you have to cope with some numbers being unusable, and there was another esolang with a similar property but with the set of unusable numbers fixed
21:31:48 <b_jonas> but that doesn't happen every few yeras
21:32:09 <b_jonas> I have entries inherited from around 2008 in my irc configuration that still work
21:32:43 <cd> fizzie: do you happen to have any clue as to what causes stdout to just not work?
21:33:00 <nakilon> there should be a RAM with unusable memory addresses that correspond to prime numbers, preferably very large prime numbers
21:33:05 <cd> i have the entire multibot setup functional, it's just umlbox not cooperating now
21:33:26 <b_jonas> nakilon: oh yeah, that exists too:
21:34:14 <b_jonas> https://www.linusakesson.net/scene/safevsp/index.php
21:34:51 <b_jonas> it mentions a case where you want to program such that every eighths byte in the memory is unusable
21:36:27 <nakilon> I remember how on 32 Windows every 4th gigabyte of 4 GB RAM was unusable
21:36:28 <b_jonas> nakilon: prime numbers are easier, because there are large gaps between them, so if the memory is infinitely large, you can just choose a large enough contiguous subset. sure, it might require you to buy an exponentially larger sized memory chip, who cares, RAM is cheap
21:36:31 <fizzie> cd: Not really, just vague recollections that I've had problems with the output, especially when it comes to those con1/con2/con UML command-line arguments and getting them all right.
21:37:05 <nakilon> b_jonas ok, prime number div 100
21:38:21 <fizzie> There's something very unintuitive about what those parameters mean, especially when it comes to separate input and output designations.
21:39:16 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I had it in a state at least once where the `-v` mode worked fine but had all that kernel output spam, while the non-verbose version just lost the command stdout somewhere.
21:40:09 <fizzie> Not impossible there's even some Linux kernel version differences, I've certainly had to do tweaking when upgrading the kernel.
21:40:13 <nakilon> or imagine the memory that rotates sometimes, like by 1 byte every second
21:41:13 <nakilon> and the growing end does not copy data from the dying start but fills with zeros
21:41:35 <fizzie> I think I might have it working on Debian's UML kernel at the moment, rather than a self-built one. Maybe. Can't tell from my notes.
21:42:09 <nakilon> btw about notes that you can't tell from
21:42:26 <nakilon> is it also common in other countries that it's damn impossible to read what doctors write?
21:42:39 <nakilon> https://www.google.com/search?q=%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BA+%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B0&rlz=1C1SQJL_ruRU840RU840&sxsrf=ALeKk03EOZnntQ-kI9YTsmdda1hgQS0vdA:1621719750655&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-s6btoN7wAhXjl4sKHfJmAGMQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1279&bih=684&dpr=2
21:42:44 <fizzie> Actually, looks like it's built from Debian's `user-mode-linux` package sources but with patching.
21:42:59 <fizzie> And I think doctors' handwriting is one of those classic things to joke about, so probably.
21:43:53 <b_jonas> nakilon: that would just be like old DRAMs with no built-in refresh logic, so you have to refresh them from the CPU
21:44:05 <nakilon> I just looked at like 10 of these images and could not understand a single word, neither I could do about my own medical book
21:44:39 <b_jonas> ais523: you're fizzie's second-in-command, do you have any opinion to weigh in about the future of #esoteric after all the freenode drama? I'd like to hear
21:45:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, that's common
21:45:23 <b_jonas> nakilon: pharmacists train hard to be able to read it, and then they tell stories about particular doctors where even they can't read the handwriting
21:46:04 <b_jonas> (also about stupid doctors who write readable but stupid instructions, for which they have to check and filter out to not harm the patient too much, but that's less funny)
21:46:19 <nakilon> they should have a special font now when it's computerised
21:47:32 <b_jonas> that said, my handwriting is unreadable too
21:47:48 <b_jonas> and it's very different from my brother's handwriting
21:47:53 <nakilon> maybe you have medical talents you didn't develop
21:48:01 <b_jonas> no, it's my brother who's the doctor
21:48:03 <cd> fizzie: I'm not sure it's even attempting to run the kernel, judging from the --verbose output
21:48:55 <cd> or rather, i'm getting no output from the kernel
21:49:50 <cd> running the command myself "works" (tmp file since deleted)
21:51:21 <cd> https://pybin.pw/He0C atm this is the most it tells me
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21:52:35 <nakilon> lol issue closed https://github.com/sjvasquez/handwriting-synthesis/issues/9
22:05:23 <cd> ok wtf, uml is very much being tempermental
22:06:58 <cd> > ioctl /random: bad address
22:07:00 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: ioctl :: g -> (a, g)error:
22:07:00 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: bad :: t0 -> [g -> (a, g)]
22:07:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:AlvinBalvin321]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83192&oldid=76349 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+4720) /* ? */
22:11:29 <cd> output now works by removing random entirely, but writing to env doesn't seem to function
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22:16:44 <cd> `` cat $(which "\`")
22:16:45 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnoooooodl
22:17:33 <HackEso> 1030) <shachaf> your first mistake was making your second mistake
22:17:43 <river> `` which rnoooooodl
22:17:47 <river> `` cat $(which rnoooooodl)
22:18:01 <river> `` grep -R / rnoooooodl
22:18:04 <HackEso> grep: rnoooooodl: No such file or directory
22:18:10 <river> `` grep -R rnoooooodl /
22:18:46 <HackEso> grep: /etc/alternatives/my.cnf: No such file or directory
22:18:59 <fizzie> river: It's actually got a few less 'o's in it.
22:19:13 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
22:19:33 <fizzie> But when you're *actually* running through it, it adds more.
22:19:47 <HackEso> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
22:24:07 <b_jonas> I hate rnoodl, and I hate bin/\` for using it
22:24:59 <b_jonas> I always wanted to just remove it from bin/\` and bin/\`\` but I don't dare
22:25:04 <b_jonas> it can stay in the wisdom commands
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22:53:45 <nakilon> when I was coding in RASEL I needed to make some large number and it appeared to be less trivial to do that in Befunge
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22:54:11 <nakilon> in Befunge you just :*:*:*:* to increase it rapidly but it's more complicated when you don't have a multiplication operation
22:56:12 <nakilon> so you can either have a large N and repeat :1\//
22:57:28 <nakilon> or maybe do some 1 / (1/N - 1/M) but I'm not 100% sure it would be any faster per cycle
22:58:17 <nakilon> but may make the path towards the number you need more interesting
23:01:17 <cd> annnd hackbot copy is now mostly working(tm)
23:01:31 <HackEso> revision? No such file or directory
23:06:22 <fizzie> Whoops, need to flip a setting.
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23:16:09 <ProofTechnique> Perhaps the most esoteric thing of all, a minutely more descriptive channel name
23:17:58 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83193&oldid=83149 * Zero player rodent * (+737)
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23:23:19 <int-e> oh "profession" would have fit in the religious theme
00:07:41 <esolangs> <ghosthell> Non Terrestrial Or Terrestrial Beings which can help me with Trans Universal Transportation (Please PM Me)9
00:10:06 <b_jonas> cd: it's just the usual "psychic needed, you know where to apply" call. if you don't have alien technology to time travel and build pyramids, don't worry about it.
00:10:41 <esolangs> [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83194&oldid=83191 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-460) Changed the Common Lisp interpreter, basing it upon a hash table instead of a vector, such that a potentially infinite tally of cells as well as a negative indices become possible.
00:10:43 <cd> i found some funny looking shapes in my back yard, i bet aliens did it
00:12:58 <fizzie> Not bridging joins and parts makes those things come a bit out of the blue, but bridging them would be just awful.
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00:27:52 <cd> `` cat $(which mkx)
00:27:53 <HackEso> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
00:28:17 <cd> `` cat $(which mk)
00:28:18 <HackEso> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
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00:42:37 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/ | this channel is bridged, see "brctl: help ignore" on how to opt out.
00:50:24 <fizzie> Needs some actual integration work, for now I'm just running a parallel instance of the exact same frontend except with a different root path.
00:59:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, you told us that you're using an IRC library called IIRC "multibot" that you find hard to adapt to what you want
01:00:40 <cd> multibot is hackeso's lib. Now that i've looked through it, it's... interesting
01:00:50 <cd> very weird tbh
01:05:19 <fizzie> Yeah, multibot's for HackEso, and it is pretty quirky. For esolangs (logging, wiki recent changes, bridging) I'm using my own custom C++ thing, so any deficiencies in it I can just blame on myself.
01:06:04 <cd> tbh multibot is so simplistic it probably isn't too hard to write a replacement
01:06:28 <cd> it's just over 600 lines of C
01:07:15 <fizzie> Yeah, it's like the bare minimum of C to handle parsing the IRC protocol, and executing external executables (or scripts) in response to events.
01:07:29 <fizzie> It doesn't even do the sockets, it relies on socat for that.
01:09:24 <fizzie> The other bot's basically https://github.com/fis/bracket/ which is my homegrown single-threaded C++ event loop and other utilities of inconsistent quality.
01:10:43 <b_jonas> I sort of have a long-term plan to write my own IRC client thingy. I have some existing IRC code that is terrible but contains useful notes about the IRC protocol and freenode that I'll be able to use.
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01:56:48 <Sgeo> Ada (or a specific compiler actually) has magic variable names:
01:56:49 <Sgeo> "Or give the variable a name that contains any of the strings discard dummy ignore junk unused (case insensitive)
01:56:57 <Sgeo> (To suppress unused variable warnings)
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02:13:49 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83195 * Batata * (+4915) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Numberlang |author=[[User:Batata|Batata]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |class=[[Turing Complete|Turing Complete]] |files=<code>.numl</code> }} '''Num..."
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02:16:15 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83196&oldid=83195 * Batata * (+4) /* Reverse Cat */
02:17:43 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83197&oldid=83163 * Batata * (-479)
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02:19:06 <fizzie> Reminds me of GCC's magic fall-thru comment, with a configurable sensitivity.
02:19:21 <fizzie> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Warning-Options.html -Wimplicit-fallthrough=n
02:20:31 <fizzie> Level 2 matches /.*falls?[ \t-]*thr(ough|u).*/ case-insensitively, but it's the list of level 3 that's really the amusing one.
02:21:25 <fizzie> With gems like: [ \t.!]*([Ee]lse,? |[Ii]ntentional(ly)? )? fall(s | |-)?thr(ough|u)[ \t.!]*(-[^\n\r]*)?
02:21:56 <fizzie> Though I guess comments for silencing warnings or linters are a little more common.
02:22:24 <fizzie> There was definitely something (else) where you could do an `unused_` prefix on variables though.
02:23:16 <fizzie> I think that's pylint.
02:23:31 <cd> the very first major mod to hackbot i made was allowing it to use /me
02:23:40 <cd> because yes
02:30:27 <esolangs> <zzo38> I found a NSA document; it looks like it was printed out from a MediaWiki-based web page and then OCR to convert it to text.
02:31:07 <fizzie> Presumably not our wiki, though?
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02:42:04 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83198&oldid=83182 * HaleyHalcyon * (-13)
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02:45:09 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83199&oldid=83196 * Batata * (+18)
02:46:00 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83200&oldid=83199 * Batata * (+16) /* Cat */
02:47:47 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83201&oldid=83200 * Batata * (+18) /* Truth-Machine */
03:19:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 8Epic8 * New user account
03:26:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83202&oldid=83175 * 8Epic8 * (+167)
03:57:35 <b_jonas> Sgeo: some languages use variables starting with an underscore to suppress unused variable warnings: in perl and rust it really just suppresses the warnings (in perl you rarely need it because the warning only applies to globals, not lexical locals), but I think in some languages (was it Prolog? Haskell? I can't remember) it is more magical and makes them unique even if the name is repeated
03:58:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: if it's from our wiki, my guess is the BANCStar one
04:00:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: as for the fallthrough, there's now also a new-style attribute [[fallthrough]] for that (both in C and C++)
05:04:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ilaylevy * moved [[Yogurt]] to [[Dead]]
05:05:31 <esolangs> [[Dead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83205&oldid=83203 * Ilaylevy * (+7)
05:40:55 <b_jonas> TIL from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyixMpuGEL8 why the transparency or alpha channel of images is sometimes called the "matte" channel
06:25:52 <esolangs> [[Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83206&oldid=57054 * Bangyen * (+108)
06:46:49 <esolangs> <zzo38> Write about ZZT, Free Hero Mesh, tarot cards, and the gemini protocol in the wisdom file, next.
06:53:23 <nakilon> I'm really thinking about drawing a line in an IRC bot between handlers that are hardcoded in it and those that are deployed as a different app serverless
06:55:13 <nakilon> the hot reload capability would stop relying on bot implementation/language ability to do it
06:58:18 <nakilon> essentially since Ruby is very dynamic it's trivial and you use the "load" method that reloads the file where you put your "constants", methods and methods stored in constants (constants are identifiers of Modules) but there is still a room for coder's error about the runtime state
06:59:19 <nakilon> while writing the serverless app you are supposed to think stateless and can apply measures to be sure they are called only once
06:59:54 <nakilon> another approach would be just to call a subprocess of course
07:01:01 <nakilon> but that would still need you to update the source code on bot machine that is another risk to kill the bot
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07:40:32 <Taneb> Does anyone know an easy-to-compute metric on permutations of letters such that "carthorse" is close to "horsecart" but far from "orchestra"?
07:46:14 <nakilon> today's gif and these comments remind me how I (always unsuccessfully) try to teach people IRC https://i.imgur.com/ZH7715s.png
07:49:39 <imode> Taneb: you could measure the distances the letters moved.
07:50:11 <imode> find all positions of the letters in the first word in the second word, compute their differences, add the differences up.
07:50:25 <nakilon> Taneb if it exists it should be somewhere here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_metric
07:50:29 <imode> either that or something like that via hamming distance.
07:50:44 <Taneb> imode: that would make carthorse far from horsecart, wouldn't it?
07:51:03 <imode> Taneb: yeah, valid. you could use some form of common edit distance algorithm.
07:51:58 <imode> there's probably something efficient for the permutations case.. hm.
07:52:41 <imode> maybe adding and then taking the average?
07:52:58 <Taneb> Hmm, what about something with adjacencies?
07:54:10 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83207 * Kwes * (+784) Created page with "= i-ok = A small 1 digit esolang, for simple 1 letter usage. {| class="wikitable" |+ |- ! chars !! desc |- | i+ or i++ || adds |- | i- or i-- || subtracts |- | i* || multiple..."
07:54:13 <imode> actually if you let the differences be negative, it might cancel out.
07:54:29 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83208&oldid=83207 * Kwes * (-9)
07:55:50 <nakilon> also there is nothing matching here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edit_distance
07:56:00 <nakilon> so I assume the problem just isn't solved yet or is unsolvable
07:57:27 <nakilon> if you can assume that the string can be split only in two you may try to build something on top of length(str) splits
08:02:02 <nakilon> str.chars.each_cons(2).sort.map(&:join)
08:02:18 <nakilon> ["ar", "ca", "ho", "or", "rs", "rt", "se", "th"]
08:02:25 <nakilon> ["ar", "ca", "ec", "ho", "or", "rs", "rt", "se"]
08:02:26 <nakilon> ["ch", "es", "he", "or", "ra", "rc", "st", "tr"]
08:03:09 <nakilon> and now you implement Levenshtein between these "two-byte-char" string
08:05:22 <nakilon> you see here it's distance 2 between carthorse and horsecart
08:07:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83209&oldid=83094 * Kwes * (+11) added I-ok
08:09:43 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83210&oldid=83208 * Kwes * (+23)
08:11:13 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83211&oldid=83210 * Kwes * (+0)
08:11:33 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83212&oldid=83211 * Kwes * (+1)
08:12:00 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83213&oldid=83212 * Kwes * (+1)
08:12:36 <myname> you could maybe do some substring matching like the bioinformatics people do all the time to find the string "horse" in both occurences, remove it and repeat
08:12:51 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83214&oldid=83213 * Kwes * (+0)
08:18:12 <esolangs> [[User:Kwes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83215&oldid=83171 * Kwes * (+23)
08:19:30 <myname> if you make some reasonable threshold, it should perform pretty well
08:21:56 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83216&oldid=83214 * Kwes * (+30)
08:22:57 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83217&oldid=83216 * Kwes * (-6)
08:22:59 <nakilon> if you don't know in how many substrings it should be splitted it's N^N
08:23:17 <nakilon> you try h, ho, hor, hors, horse on each level
08:23:22 <nakilon> if I understood you correctly
08:24:34 <myname> i wouldn't try it that way. there should be algorithms to find longest substrings in O(n^2). you go through that as long as the substring you find is larger than something like O(sqrt(n)) to allow for reasonable shrinking and after that you just do levensthein or something
08:35:00 <nakilon> oh btw, in my approach you don't need the O(n^2) levenshtein, because lists are sorted already
08:35:51 <nakilon> so it's O(n) to split, O(n log n) to sort and then O(n) again to calculate distance
08:37:19 <myname> how would you do that in your example? "horse" cannot be put together by two-byte-strings
08:38:52 <nakilon> I don't put the horse together, I operate is as a ["ho", "or", "rs", "se"] sorted array
08:40:25 <nakilon> you can see this subarray included in two arrays in my copypasta above but not in the third one because there was no horse in it
08:40:49 <nakilon> sure it depends on the length of strings, it they are 100 chars long there might be fake horses
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09:05:44 <nakilon> is prefix \ bot-free currently?
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11:53:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nooder Coob * New user account
12:06:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83218&oldid=83202 * Nooder Coob * (+355) /* Introductions */
12:06:36 <nakilon> "and can apply measures to be sure they are called only once" -- forget this, since the commands I want to deploy are made in a supported language you can run Cloud Functions instead if Cloud Run so it's already solved on their side
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12:19:14 <esolangs> [[DotSnap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83219 * Nooder Coob * (+1094) Created page with "== DotSnap Language == ==== What is the DotSnap Language ==== The DotSnap Language is a language dedicated to my stupidity, craziness, and vast imagination yet bounded with my..."
12:26:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: Go doesn't use an underscore prefix, but it does make the plain _ a special "blank identifier", which you can use for unused parameters, or in a multi-value assignment for values you don't care about, or a few other similar cases. And you can freely repeat it.
12:28:25 <nakilon> in ruby _ is a valid identifier and also you are allowed to use the same identifier as parameters or multi-vaue assignment, so people use _ in the same way
12:30:42 <fizzie> Speaking of bot architectures, I did almost complete a refactoring once of our esowiki/esolangs bot where I left just the "critical" bits (IRC connection management and channel logging) in the executable, and all other logic would have been in separate processes that connect to it over an RPC thing and register for callbacks for events they care about. Mostly to avoid having to restart it so often when
12:30:48 <fizzie> messing about, and also to avoid having the logging go down if some less important bit breaks. Not quite as cloudy, but a bit in that direction.
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12:37:31 <esolangs> <fizzie> zzo38: Oh, by the way -- you might have said something once about ignoring the wiki updates? I made the same bot (esowiki) do the bridge from the experimental Libera channel, so if you're ignoring it completely you might have been missing out on discussions happening over there. Sorry about that.
12:45:28 <b_jonas> Taneb: does it only have to work on words without repetitions?
12:48:09 <fizzie> The letter bigram bag distance thing sounded reasonable to me.
12:48:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: "the plain _" => yes, the plain underscore is a special keyword in rust too, when you use it in a pattern it can behave differently from using a variable that you only mention once
12:49:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: a refactor of esowiki? nice
12:50:01 <b_jonas> "and also to avoid having the logging go down if some less important bit breaks" => what happens when the web server breaks like it sometimes does from lurk mode?
12:51:28 <fizzie> Fortunately that already doesn't affect logging, just serving, since it's already a separate process. In the post-refactoring model, it'd probably be much the same, except it'd use the standard RPC mechanism instead of the custom-built protocol it now does to implement stalker mode.
12:52:09 <fizzie> If you can call "connect to a socket and just read protos from it" a protocol. Well, maybe: both contain the substring "proto". But I digress.
12:53:43 <fizzie> Incidentally, stalker mode doesn't yet work for this channel's logs.
12:54:00 <b_jonas> an RPC mechanism? in my vague plans for the vaporware irc client, the process that keeps the IRC connection alive and does only a few things so you rarely need to replace it just logs (almost) all traffic from the IRC connections into an append-only file, plus notifies subscribers after the file changes, that's the whole RPC mechanism for reading. of course that just pushes the harder part to other
12:54:07 <b_jonas> components. writing would be a bit more complicated.
12:55:31 <fizzie> That's a reasonable model too. I was going to use the "brpc" system, because, well, because it's there.
12:55:31 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83220&oldid=83197 * Batata * (+1)
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12:55:42 <b_jonas> admittedly reading also might be complicated, because I might want to exclude some sensitive information like passwords from the logfile yet temporarily relay them to a reader process
12:57:21 <b_jonas> though I could put them to a separate short-term logfile
12:57:34 <b_jonas> I dunno, ideally I never want to handle passwords read from IRC again
12:57:55 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83221&oldid=83217 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) Clarify
12:58:10 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83222&oldid=83221 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) fix
12:58:44 <fizzie> I got the impression one of Libera's (well, Solanum's) vendor-specific IRCv3 mechanisms was this thing where you get an account tag for every message, so that clients can easily know which identified user account a message came from.
12:58:51 <esolangs> <zzo38> fizzie: Is there a regular expression to distinguish the messages?
12:59:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: freenode already has a mechanism for that
12:59:24 <b_jonas> I even have a bad implementation for it that works correctly and so I can use it as reference for a good implementation
12:59:46 <b_jonas> the protocol details are a bit complicated because it consists of three different parts:
13:00:02 <esolangs> <fizzie> zzo38: All the bridged messages start with "<nick> ..." and all the wiki updates start with "[[Page title]]", though the latter has color codes in it.
13:00:42 <esolangs> <fizzie> So I guess ^< should work for detecting the bridged traffic. You can see how they look like in the logs, of course.
13:01:06 <b_jonas> (1) you use extended WHO to read the account names when you join a channel, (2) you can opt in to the server sending extended JOIN messages that contain the account name of anyone joining later, and (3) you can opt in to ACCOUNT messages that the server sends whenever someone you see on a channel changes their account (by logging in to nickserv or logging out)
13:01:23 <b_jonas> I didn't know there was a new mechanism
13:01:45 <b_jonas> do they also have a tag to identify connections uniquely even if they're not joined to a channel?
13:01:46 <fizzie> I didn't look at it so closely. Actually, looks like there's a standard IRCv3 tag: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/account-tag
13:01:54 <b_jonas> as in, when they're private message me
13:02:09 <fizzie> That one ^ should do, since it's in every message.
13:02:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: well ok, but does libera actually implement that?
13:02:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: well that's more useful, though not quite what I asked about
13:02:36 <fizzie> I didn't really find the docs of the Libera/Solanum tag, so I only had a very vague impression it was something similar.
13:03:16 <fizzie> From a Libera server: Capabilities supported: account-notify away-notify chghost extended-join multi-prefix sasl tls account-tag cap-notify echo-message solanum.chat/identify-msg solanum.chat/realhost
13:03:35 <fizzie> So "account-tag" *is* mentioned there, but the one I was confused about was "solanum.chat/identify-msg".
13:03:46 <b_jonas> I also want a uniqe tag to identify the connection to the server, even for unidentified nicks, so that if a nick privmsgs me twice and they're not joined a channel, I can tell if they're the same connection, and more usefully, to send a private message that the server won't deliver to an unrelated person with the same nick who connected or nicked to that nick shortly before I send them the message
13:04:09 <b_jonas> I know you can send a message to a nick!user@host as an approximation, but that's just not the same
13:04:36 <b_jonas> and I know the servers do have such unique tags, they use them when the servers talk to each other
13:05:12 <b_jonas> "I didn't really find the docs" => thanks, I can just ask on #libera after the drama gets lower, the freenode admins were usually very helpful about that sort of thing
13:05:37 <fizzie> https://github.com/solanum-ircd/solanum/pull/4 implements it, and the comments said they're working on making those URLs link to the documentation, but they didn't yet.
13:06:08 <fizzie> Looking at the code, it's probably something else.
13:08:31 <b_jonas> there are also some other small but useful features of freenode's old server and services that libera still supports and that I'm glad for, such as that it resends the 005 replies when you ask for VERSION -- not every IRC server does that, and it's a nice QOL improvement that lets you more safely make it possible that you can emergency hot-restart even the process that is connected to IRC while keeping
13:08:37 <b_jonas> the connection alive even if it has a memory corruption and so its knowledge about its connections is mangled
13:08:43 <b_jonas> and yes, I know that's a stupid thing and I'd never do that in production, but still
13:10:47 <b_jonas> those 005 reply lines helpfully contain my nickname and the nick/channel case folding rule, all of which are really essential state to follow an IRC connection, and contain the network name, useful when you inherit multiple sockets and have no idea which one is supposed to be what
13:14:34 <b_jonas> I wish the IRC protocol was at least built such that when the server sends you a NICK/JOIN/PART/KICK message, it distinguishes whether it applies to your connection or someone else, so you don't have to know your own nick, which can change, to decide, but that seems too late to fix
13:15:21 <b_jonas> but I haven't seen an extension that does that
13:15:50 <b_jonas> for PRIVMSG/NOTICE it's easy, you only get a PRIVMSG targeting a nick if it's you
13:25:25 <b_jonas> I guess that's like the sort of things that compiler authors face when there's an existing programming language that used to be well-defined but then optimization technology marches on and suddenly they have to figure out exact semantics of what the optimizer is allowed to do, in smaller scale
13:27:11 <b_jonas> and then people who write interesting C or C++ or Rust programs also want to know the exact semantics to tell whether current or future optimizers are allowed to break their code
13:28:17 <b_jonas> and then you have to go to freenode/#freenode to ask about the guarantees of how the servers are in a forest, there can't be cycles, and what that implies about the ordering of messages originating from other servers, or to oftc/#llvm to ask about the optimization guarantees for floating point vector addition
13:28:42 <b_jonas> even though in production code you wouldn't want really to rely on those guarantees anyway
13:28:54 <b_jonas> it's not just me that happens to, right? I mean this is #esoteric
13:31:57 <b_jonas> and then you wonder about how that limits future optimizers, including how you'll have to modify TCP when we colonize Mars and then make an IRC-like thing that allows cycles and breaks those guarantees when we colonize a third place with pairwise significant light-speed limit information delay among the three
13:37:24 <b_jonas> I'm worried about the TCP thing by the way. with how slow updating basic infrastructure like that is, I really hope someone is working on suitable protocols in advance. there are a lot of theoretical problems, like you can't continue https anywhere if you want to cache webpages on every planet for faster reaction time without everyone who makes webpages having to pay for a server on every planet and
13:37:30 <b_jonas> moon. there might be a rebound from https anywhere to allowing caching HTTP proxies for that. at least I hope so, because the alternative where only big companies like facebook and google can host webpages would suck.
13:41:01 <fizzie> Hmm, well. I think Cloudflare's CDN services are pretty affordable (they've got that whole Cloudflare for Individuals free tier and all), but it would be kind of a shame if you'd be *forced* to rely on services like that.
13:41:40 <b_jonas> huh, why can't I log in to the internet bank? did they break the webpage?
13:41:53 <fizzie> They moved it to Mars.
13:42:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: they might be affordable *right now*, perhaps still if we only have presence on two or three planets (like how now many providers have one server in Europe, one in America, and one in Australia)
13:42:34 <b_jonas> but that doesn't scale well to a Galactic Empire
13:43:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: they could, but they'd notify me of changes that can potentially cause difficulties in accessing the internetbank interface
13:43:16 <b_jonas> good, now the webpage reacted
13:44:35 <fizzie> Cloudflare's CDN presumably has a *lot* of Points of Presence on Earth, so from a simple numbers perspective, if you lower the density to one / celestial body, I think you can cover a lot of ground^W space. Though the way interstellar commerce works might turn out to be *quite* different.
13:46:28 <fizzie> We have a bank we no longer have any products from, and they didn't say anything about what happens to the online banking credentials. So I tried it out (once right after, and once a week later), and both times it gave all the signs of passing through a login page, but then when it should have shown the landing dashboard page, the first time it gave an error message, and the second time it just gave a
13:46:34 <fizzie> blank page with an URL that had an error code in it.
13:46:57 <fizzie> I don't know if they've just not considered the situation where someone has their online banking account but no active products.
13:47:37 <fizzie> I'd kind of preferred to have closed the online thing "properly". But I'm not sure I want to start calling their customer support about it, especially now that I can't do it via a message sent through the online system.
13:49:54 <b_jonas> maybe we invent practical homomorphic encryption by then (plus obviously bigger and faster hardware available for cheap, which I sort of assume with space colonization), that would make this easier, the user would just download a cached copy of a large snapshot of the state of the bank encrypted homomorphically and run it on their own machine or on the ISP's beefy box
13:50:25 <b_jonas> and that state would verify your login details and send you the SMS for two-factor authentication
13:50:39 <b_jonas> I mean it presumably wouldn't still be SMS, just some analog
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13:53:07 <b_jonas> "I don't know if they've just not considered the situation where someone has their online banking account but no active products." => there's a bank where I have some rights to a relative's account, but no own account with them. there are silly limitations that they do to me for this: I can't buy the service where I can authenticate myself on telephone so they can give me help on phone about their
13:53:13 <b_jonas> services that I can access on the relative's account, even though the account owner could get such a service for free with their account.
13:55:01 <b_jonas> "I'd kind of preferred to have closed the online thing "properly"." => they can't do that, there might still be things you want to do with a closed account on internet bank, like inform them about changes in your address or review transactions that are resolved after you closed your account where someone else claimed you payed for it from your account earlier but there was a delay, or transactions where
13:55:07 <b_jonas> you potentially fraudulently tried to pay or write a cheque after your account was closed, or repeating online payments where the other side tries to incur a fee because they don't know you have closed your account
13:55:36 <b_jonas> I think if you have a bank account, even if you close everything, the bank has to keep some information about it "forever", or at least for a lot of years
13:56:48 <fizzie> Well, fair, but they could certainly invalidate my login credentials completely, instead of having them still "work" for logging into an error page.
13:56:55 <b_jonas> this sort of applies to a lot of businesses, but with much shorter terms, because everyone else has shorter limitations for how long they are allowed to try to say you owe them money after you stopped doing business with them than for how long you can claim that your bank owes you money
13:57:19 <b_jonas> yes, logging into an error page is probably not the correct behavior
13:58:03 <fizzie> I'm also interested in what they'll do about the last annual statement, which they've so far sent only electronically, which I would normally download from the website.
13:58:16 <fizzie> Hopefully they'll just mail it this one time.
13:59:21 <fizzie> (Not that I really need one, except to complete the set.)
13:59:46 <b_jonas> I don't think they will snail mail you the statement after you asked them to send only electronically, because some clients do that because they worried that unauthorized people steal snail mail from their postbox and the snail mail has sensitive personal information
14:00:07 <b_jonas> you can probably get the statement if you walk in in person and ask them, or maybe ask them to mail it to you
14:10:03 <nakilon> does brpc stand for befunge rpc?
14:13:09 <nakilon> "ACCOUNT messages that the server sends whenever someone you see on a channel changes their account" -- does you get these messages when someone does nickserv identify?
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14:14:14 <nakilon> 16:03:35 <fizzie> So "account-tag" *is* mentioned there, but the one I was confused about was "solanum.chat/identify-msg". -- oh this is it mentioned I guess
14:14:28 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, but only if you opt into it with CAP or CAPAB or some such message
14:14:52 <b_jonas> and if you and them share a joined channel at the time
14:15:04 <b_jonas> s/such message/such magic/
14:15:18 <b_jonas> and this is for freenode, I haven't tested anything on libera
14:16:36 <b_jonas> I guess I'll give in to the move for now, part freenode/#esoteric, and trust the bridge
14:17:58 <nakilon> well I lost it somewhere around Mars colonization
14:20:26 <nakilon> b_jonas still when you get the message from someone who's not on your channels you don't immediately see his state
14:21:08 <nakilon> and so you have to do additional requests to server and during that time user could be replaced
14:24:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, if they're not on a channel, you can't even tell if a second message they send is from a different connection with the same nick!user@host
14:24:34 <b_jonas> also if you send someone a private message, even if they are on channels when you send the message, because there's a race condition
14:24:53 <b_jonas> the practical solution to this is to not use privmsgs in situations where you care about this, just use channels, since creating channels is so easy
14:25:00 <nakilon> rare case when GCP docs have things not described well enough https://cloud.google.com/functions/docs/securing/authenticating#exchanging_a_self-signed_jwt_for_a_google-signed_id_token so I don't understand how to fully build those damn JWT request
14:25:19 <nakilon> will have to attach GCP SDK to make Function requests (
14:25:28 <nakilon> in order to have them authorized
14:26:16 <nakilon> the "Generating tokens manually" instead of using SDK that has all this magic inside
14:27:07 <nakilon> there is also "Generating tokens programmatically" that I might need to do only once too, but there is no Ruby among snippets, lol
14:27:20 <nakilon> and I'm just lazy to install others
14:27:42 <b_jonas> ah yes. "only once". and then you can throw away the logs for how you did that, because you'll surely never need to do it again.
14:28:16 <nakilon> no, actually I never throw magic away and attach it as comments everywhere
14:29:36 <nakilon> that's rather seen practice than painful experience
14:30:17 <nakilon> back in 2013 when I saw the corporate wiki in the company that was full of people who are interested in their jobs
14:31:05 <b_jonas> job security by obscurity?
14:33:54 -!- FreeFull has joined.
14:35:27 <nakilon> I mean it was an awesome wiki that was very helpful, I was quickly finding snippets of other guys, and was easily building the picture of company projects; so I was learning all the wiki abilities to create documentation of our department and it felt like a correct thing to work on
14:35:55 <nakilon> since then I'm accumulating notes and tend to commit them rather than throw away
14:36:07 <b_jonas> job security by obscurity is the opposite of that, when you don't document how you do your magic, so they can only do it by asking you
14:36:31 <nakilon> ah ye, I call it a sysadmin style
14:50:46 -!- river has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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15:16:01 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
15:18:25 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:18:43 <river> ` grep -Ri freenode
15:18:49 <river> ` grep -Ri freenode $HACKENV
15:19:10 <river> ` cat $HACKENV/* | grep -i freenode
15:21:42 <b_jonas> there's some more (unfinished) help at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hackeso
15:21:53 <b_jonas> sorry, at https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso
15:24:01 <river> `run grep -Ri freenode $HACKENV
15:24:33 <HackEso> Binary file /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/ick matches \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:void prexpr(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void prvar(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode) \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prvar(np->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prexpr(sp->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void ooprvar(node *np, FIL
15:24:40 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
15:24:52 <nakilon> -I to ignore binary files I guess
15:24:58 <river> `run grep -RiI freenode $HACKENV
15:25:24 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
15:25:28 <HackEso> /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:void prexpr(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void prvar(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode) \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prvar(np->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prexpr(sp->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void ooprvar(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode) \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/
15:25:38 <river> `run grep -RiI freenode $HACKENV | grep -v 'int freenode'
15:25:40 <nakilon> `run grep -RiI freenode $HACKENV | wc -l
15:26:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: by the way, the 005 replies claim that the name of this network is libera.chat, not libera, as far as the servers are concerned
15:27:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83223&oldid=83103 * B jonas * (+652) /* Communications */ possible move from freenode
15:28:00 <fizzie> As I understand from the web presence, "Libera.Chat" is the proper name of the network, and "Libera Chat" the organization that runs it.
15:28:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm mostly wondering what syntax for the network brctl: ignore accepts, but I don't want to know enough to experiment with it
15:29:08 <fizzie> Oh. It's all manually configured, so the names are just "libera" and "freenode" because that's what I put in the file.
15:29:43 <b_jonas> that said, I'm going to call the network libera too
15:30:18 <fizzie> I think it's unambiguous enough in context, for the purposes of things like IRC commands and URLs where brevity is appreciated.
15:30:53 <b_jonas> I mostly care about the network name in 005 because it's a useful thing to double-check in a bot to avoid silly misconfiguration mistakes
15:31:14 <b_jonas> it's not something I can trust, because a malicious IRC client can lie that they're part of freenode in that field
15:35:35 <fizzie> Here's a thing I should fix: if I use Emacs Magit mode to make a commit, and it's one of these repositories where I've configured commit.gpgsign=true to sign all commits, and I haven't authenticated to the GPG agent recently, it will try to ask for a key passphrase in a way that goes horribly wrong.
15:37:11 <fizzie> The curses pinentry dialog will pop up in some unrelated terminal, and in such a mode that the keypresses will be only partially (seemingly at random) interpreted by the passphrase entry dialog, and the others will be echoed, and the only way I have to recover is to kill the pending git command and the pinentry process.
15:38:05 <fizzie> It works fine when executed from a regular terminal though, but it's some sort of an interaction with running Emacs in a server. I'm sure someone's figured it out, I just haven't.
15:45:11 <FireFly> I called it libera in weechat at least
15:45:36 <cd> Yea that’s what I called it in my bouncer
15:58:18 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/ | this channel is bridged, see "brctl: help ignore" on how to opt out.
16:08:05 <nakilon> liberated church? what does that mean lol
16:10:09 <int-e> nakilon: I started out with "libera" and the rest is word association games
16:11:03 <nakilon> bot should make up new topic
16:12:58 <int-e> basically I was just one-upping myself anyway (see topic on fr**node)
16:14:02 <nakilon> while trying to escape the JSON dumped RASEL code for echo and curl it seems that I've created a file
16:14:09 <nakilon> and it's named /?@,Gj"dlroW ,olleH\">/?@,Gj"
16:14:24 <nakilon> with both slashes, and I thought it's impossible to create files with /
16:15:22 <nakilon> good thing I have a GUI or I won't be able to remove it
16:18:44 <b_jonas> nakilon: it's possible to create files with slashes in their names on windows, just not the usual way you use the API.
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16:46:30 <nakilon> "Unexpected internal error"
16:47:18 <nakilon> I use Windows only for gaming
17:13:09 <nakilon> fine, I'll give up and rely on preinstalled gcloud sdk
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17:38:21 <esolangs> <zzo38> I had: i /:esowiki![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :/i But, I will change it now; let's try
17:39:02 <esolangs> <zzo38> Maybe now it will work; let's see
17:39:27 <fizzie> This is a message from the bridge, so if you saw it, it worked.
17:39:56 <fizzie> Right, I guess it doesn't prove that it suitably ignored one of the wiki updates.
17:40:18 <esolangs> <zzo38> This time, I can receive the message; it worked
17:43:01 <river> can you make the bridge drop every message containing the word fnord
17:43:35 <nakilon> also drop messages randomly for confusion
17:43:43 <nakilon> or replacing the nicknames
17:45:01 <esolangs> <zzo38> Can private messages by sent by this bridge, or public only? (Does any IRC bridge support private messages, even if not this one?)
17:45:40 <nakilon> it's just a bot, whatever user can do it does
17:47:08 <esolangs> <zzo38> (Of course, if private messages are supported at all, then the bridge operator can potentially see them meaning it isn't so private, but still. Of course, so can the IRC server operators.)
17:48:07 -!- Soni has joined.
17:48:29 <Soni> brctl: help ignore
17:48:29 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
17:49:25 <Soni> brctl: ignore Soni
17:52:58 <river> brctl: ignore zzo38
17:55:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: "Does any IRC bridge support private messages, even if not this one?" => my old bridge cbstream supported sending private messages, but not receiving them
17:55:56 <b_jonas> I think fizzie's bot only forwards one or two channel, not private messages, but you'll have to ask them
18:02:40 -!- Thelie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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18:10:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vivax * New user account
18:11:31 <river> yuo should do a GCF
18:11:38 <river> or move to ##esolangs
18:11:44 <river> the # vs ## thing sucks
18:12:28 <Noisytoot> Is esolangs a registered project/community?
18:12:39 <cd> it's being worked on
18:14:17 <nakilon> GCF was created to support the efforts of developing countries in responding to the challenge of climate change.
18:16:23 <river> brctl: unignore zzo38
18:30:31 -!- river has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:35:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oshaboy * New user account
18:37:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83224&oldid=83218 * Oshaboy * (+97) /* Introductions */
18:44:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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18:48:52 <nakilon> \rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj
18:48:55 <velik> nakilon, output: "Hello, World!", exit code: 0
18:49:46 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
18:50:38 <int-e> `slwd prefixes//s=.$=, velik \\.=
18:50:43 <HackEso> prefixes//Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
18:52:24 <nakilon> fizzie might want to add the nickname to ignorelists
18:52:51 <nakilon> here is the bot code https://github.com/Nakilon/nakiircbot/blob/master/example_libera_velik/main.rb
18:53:14 <nakilon> here is the Cloud Function code https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/master/examples/google_cloud_function/app.rb
18:56:18 <nakilon> and to add new function its cmd and address should be added to this gist https://gist.github.com/Nakilon/92d5b22935f21b5e248b713057e851a6
18:56:34 <velik> remote execution commands loaded: ["rasel"]
18:57:19 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|HackEso|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot|otherbot|j-bot|esolangs|bfbot|egelbot|velik)!
18:57:45 <cd> fizzie: otherbot hasn't existed for... 3+yr
18:57:47 <cd> you can remove it
18:58:00 <fizzie> Yeah, I'll do a spring cleaning of that expression some day.
18:58:32 <fizzie> Noisytoot: We're waiting for a reply to our community registration email, but we already got verbally told it's okay.
18:58:48 <fizzie> Re what river asked, you can in fact tell the proxy to skip messages containing a keyword, like "fnord", but you probably shouldn't, because it would be confusing.
18:58:52 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: filtered" (to list), "brctl: filter regex" (to add) or "brctl: unfilter regex" (to remove)
18:58:55 <esolangs> brctl: Filter expressions: /!\\
18:59:25 <fizzie> I added that one because there was the ongoing spam thing where they were considerate enough to mark each line with that symbol.
18:59:31 <int-e> /!\ this is much easier than using /notice...
19:00:32 <cd> fizzie: can your instance of HackEso use CTCP action? I modified mine to permit ACTION and only ACTION, dunno if this one can
19:01:15 <fizzie> I think probably not, though I don't know if I care enough, given that it's not come up until now.
19:01:54 <cd> yea i assumed so
19:02:03 * int-e words around a verbified noun
19:02:05 <cd> if it comes up again I can hand over a patch
19:02:34 -!- river has joined.
19:03:16 <esolangs> <zzo38> I don't generally like to use CTCP ACTION, but there it is. So, we can see that the message is sent through the bridge, unchanged.
19:04:29 <esolangs> <fizzie> Yeah, it's just that a lot of clients only render it correctly when the ^A is at the very start. It's not great, but that's how it is.
19:05:04 <esolangs> <int-e> fizzie: well, that is the correct behavior
19:05:24 <esolangs> <fizzie> I'm pretty sure you were supposed to be able to embed CTCP inside messages arbitrarily.
19:05:33 <esolangs> <fizzie> Maybe not so meaningfully for ACTION though.
19:05:35 <esolangs> <zzo38> I still think it is better the way that it is, although, that is a valid concern; but, when they are rendered incorrectly, how does it render them? We can see exactly what are the problems with them specifically
19:06:16 <esolangs> <zzo38> Embedding ACTION like this is probably useful for bridging, though.
19:06:30 <nakilon> `rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj
19:06:31 <esolangs> <fizzie> The way I saw int-e's message was as "<esowiki> <int-e> AACTION words around a verbified nounA", with the 'A' letters that are actually ^A rendered with reversed colors.
19:07:54 <esolangs> <zzo38> On my computer, there is a /SET FORMAT option; with /SET FORMAT - it does like you describe; with /SET FORMAT + it diplays the CTCP part of the message in red.
19:08:25 <esolangs> <zzo38> (Although, it does this even if it is alone and not part of another message.)
19:08:37 <nakilon> the good thing about this serverless thing is that it easily stops when RAM or Time limits are reached
19:09:51 <esolangs> <nakilon> 22:02:03 <esowiki> <int-e> ACTION words around a verbified noun
19:10:03 <esolangs> <nakilon> this could be 22:02:03 <esowiki> * int-e words around a verbified noun
19:10:49 <esolangs> <fizzie> Sure, that'd be the obvious "pre"formatting for CTCP ACTION.
19:13:28 <esolangs> <int-e> fizzie: ugh, you seem to be right that CTCP in the middle of a message was meant to work
19:14:09 <esolangs> <int-e> but I imagine it would then result in two lines here, <esowiki> <actor>, * esowiki <whatever action was provided>
19:14:52 <esolangs> <int-e> so it would still be up to the bridge to turn this into something more sensible
19:16:21 <esolangs> <zzo38> Well, I still think that what it currently does makes sense, at least
19:18:11 -!- tech_exorcist_ has quit (Quit: tech_exorcist_).
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19:18:38 <nakilon> 22:06:02 *** User ##esoteric is already on the channel.
19:19:05 <nakilon> I feel like thelounge dropped previous logs
19:20:09 <nakilon> I guess there were two channels and then they were merged
19:20:34 <nakilon> and now I'm unable to switch to the old one to see the history, lol
19:21:09 <nakilon> it's now trashed somewhere in thelounge's sql db
19:23:04 <int-e> nakilon: fizzie can probably invite you
19:24:01 <int-e> but it also seems kind of pathetic, not being able to check the logs just because you're not joined :)
19:24:48 <nakilon> what about your clients? do you miss that chunk too where we were jumping around the hackeso ` `` ```?
19:25:48 <nakilon> int-e so another channel still exists?
19:26:04 <fizzie> There's still 10 people on ##esoteric, yes.
19:26:15 <int-e> nakilon: #esoteric and ##esoteric both forward people to join here
19:26:29 <nakilon> yeah it looks like the thelounge limitation to be not able to read the log if you for example was banned and then you closed the tab
19:26:36 <fizzie> There was a big split, and then ChanServ kicked out a whole bunch of people with the reason "invite-only channel".
19:26:40 <int-e> fizzie: down from 22 the last time I checked... attrition!
19:27:02 <int-e> (apparently I was on the wrong side of that split)
19:27:16 <int-e> (doesn't matter, I only just noticed)
19:27:38 <fizzie> nakilon: I can invite you onto it if you do need it for the logs, though I agree that's a little weird.
19:29:44 <fizzie> The plan is to allow it to gradually empty, then leave it as an empty forwarded for a time, and then drop the registration, because in terms of policy I think anyone should be free to claim ##esoteric to talk about... whatever they think is appropriate for the name. We'll still keep single-# #esoteric for now.
19:40:26 <b_jonas> "otherbot hasn't existed for... 3+yr" => and I believe EgoBot hasn't existed for even longer, but we're an IRC community, we don't forget our past so quickly
19:40:49 <b_jonas> no need to spring clean that, there's no harm coming from ignoring those other bots
19:41:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'll probably ask simcop to join perlbot to our channel, wherever that is, so you might want to have fungot ignore perlbot too.
19:41:28 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i would like to express my support for the peace process is not served in any way. indeed, famine and ethiopia: these are amendment nos 5, 11 and 12 because they merely restate the principles of transparency and citizenship at the service of other objectives which it may be claimed that the world's population by 2015 and the objective of the commission, may i ask you whether you do not insist on the inser
19:42:37 <b_jonas> perlbot is an instance of a modified version of buubot3, and simcop already brought it to libera
19:42:41 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83225 * Oshaboy * (+2437) Initial
19:43:00 <simcop2387> huh thought i brought it hear earlier already
19:43:23 <simcop2387> it will only speak when spoken to so it's usually fine
19:43:28 -!- perlbot has joined.
19:44:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: you're aware that backslash is valid as the first character of an irc nick, an in fact oren wore such a link for a while, right?
19:46:00 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(HackEso|lambdabot|metasepia|idris-bot|blsqbot|j-bot|esolangs|velik|perlbot)!
19:46:17 <fizzie> (I know some of those are still obsolete, but anyway.)
19:46:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IPhoenix * New user account
19:47:42 <fungot> river: this week we have already been applying the practices of armed groups seeking to cut off supplies we must consider how best to reduce greenhouse gas emissions at global level to observe social labour standards.
19:48:11 <fizzie> Armed groups are one way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, yes.
19:48:21 <b_jonas> "<esowiki> * int-e words around a verbified noun" => I dislike formatting CTCP action that way
19:48:40 <b_jonas> I'd suggest "<esowiki> <int-e> /me words around a verbified noun" instead
19:49:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83226&oldid=83224 * IPhoenix * (+276) hi
19:50:27 <esolangs> <zzo38> Yes, and I would prefer just sending it directly. So, those are now three different suggestions.
19:52:14 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> nakilon: I can invite you onto it [libera/##esoteric ]" => mode the channel to passworded -i+k and make the password automatically track (a sanitized version of) /hackenv/wisdom/password ! then people who try to join accidentally will be forwarded here, but anyone can still join deliberately :-)
19:53:05 <b_jonas> perlbot compose {echo > 3 -- fun}{echo got}
19:53:05 <perlbot> b_jonas: Error: unmatched closing parenthesis in compose
19:53:11 <simcop2387> np. i've added some features to it since we last talked about it, i can set this channel to have it's own namespace of factoids if you guys want it
19:53:41 <b_jonas> perlbot compose {echo {echo > 3 -- fun}{echo got}}
19:53:43 <simcop2387> https://factoids.perl.bot/ for a way to browse them all.
19:56:57 <fizzie> b_jonas: We speculated about making an invite exemption that allows anyone already on #esolangs to join ##esoteric if they wish -- /quote help extban says "$c:<chan> - Matches users who are on the given channel", but https://libera.chat/guides/extbans doesn't mention it, and didn't work.
19:57:30 <imode> what is the difference between #esolangs and ##esoteric
19:57:38 <cd> basically nothing
19:57:45 <imode> I can't join it, neat.
19:57:59 <fizzie> It's supposed to just forward to here.
19:58:03 <int-e> imode: it forwards people here, just as #esoteric does
19:58:05 <imode> aha, that explains it.
19:59:08 <esolangs> <zzo38> If the help file says something that does not match the implementation, then you should file a bug report
20:00:01 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83227&oldid=83225 * Oshaboy * (+92) Categories
20:00:11 <fizzie> There's not much point in hanging out on it, really, but of course people still do. Well, I shouldn't talk, *I'm* still there too. Maybe I should just lock the topic and part, to show good example.
20:00:26 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83228&oldid=83227 * Oshaboy * (+0) Typo
20:00:41 <fizzie> zzo38: Yeah, although I can't rule out the possibility that I did something wrong.
20:01:00 <esolangs> <zzo38> Yes, that is what you will have to check first
20:01:55 <b_jonas> simcop2387: there's a web interface listing them? hmm, that sort of ruins the joke where the only way to list them was to list ones matching each individual byte like compose `compose [echo `eval join"",map{"[fact search [eval chr $_]]"} 0..255']' except that one times out so it doesn't work
20:02:49 <simcop2387> yea there started to get to be too many factoids for search to work like that anymore so i had to do something else
20:03:10 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83229&oldid=83228 * Oshaboy * (+53) Typo and extra info
20:03:23 <simcop2387> there's also the factgrep command that looks only at the subject of the factoid and gives it back as a perl/json array to be consumed in macros
20:03:30 <perlbot> simcop2387: ["_be_abesimpson_it","_be_brain","_be__default","__be_elliott_poop","_be_elliott_poop","_be_florianbd_functions","_be_foo_blarg","_be__get_list","_be_huf_anyad","_be_kent\\n_news","_be_kthx","_be_larry_underwood_song","_be_list","_be_mst_cistern","_be_mst_snort","_be_parv_thanks","_be_paste","_be_pearl","_be_simcop2387_mrceremonies","_be_web","_be_xenu_1"]
20:03:31 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83230&oldid=83229 * Oshaboy * (+0) Typo
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20:03:54 <b_jonas> well... you could add some way in the factoid plugin to get a window into the list of factoid names, so that we can list them even automated in a macro, but that would be work
20:04:03 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83231&oldid=83230 * Oshaboy * (+0) Typo
20:04:24 <simcop2387> and the search is now also powered by postgresql's full text search engine, including macro outputs. so it tends to do better on actual searches
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20:04:39 <simcop2387> yea runs a regex across all the factoid subjects (not the contents)
20:04:46 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83232&oldid=83231 * Oshaboy * (+45) Extra Info
20:04:48 <perlbot> simcop2387: P:macro be is [eval $str="[fact [8ball [fact _be__get_list [arg]]]]"; $arg=[quote d [arg]]; if ($arg =~ /^\s*a\s+retard\s*$/) {$arg=[quote d [arg &n]]}; if ($arg =~ /^\s*$/) {$str} else {"<".$arg."> ".$str}]
20:05:01 <b_jonas> perlbot fact literal factgrep
20:05:15 <simcop2387> it's a command part of the factoid plugin, no way to do it otherwise
20:05:33 <perlbot> simcop2387: macro _be__get_list is `eval use JSON::MaybeXS qw/decode_json/; $bel= decode_json `quote d `fact factgrep ^_be_`arg!!!; return `quote d `fact _be__default!! unless (@$bel); @$bel = (@$bel, @$bel); join(', ', @$bel) =~ s/,/ or /r!
20:05:44 <simcop2387> i've not kept up with the help properly for it all
20:05:54 <b_jonas> simcop2387: yeah, help text are hard to write
20:06:01 <simcop2387> it's just a PCRE regex against the factoids
20:06:17 <b_jonas> wait, a PCRE regex powered by postgres?
20:06:40 <simcop2387> at least i think it was pcre. can't remember
20:07:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: perl isn't, but perlbot is
20:07:13 <simcop2387> it probably would be considered so these days
20:07:18 <nakilon> b_jonas yeah, it might be valid nickname char but I'm used to it from some time ago
20:07:34 <nakilon> I hope no one name himself \rasel
20:08:09 <nakilon> \rasel some random text that people would write here
20:08:12 <velik> nakilon, output: "", exit code: 255
20:08:31 <simcop2387> i wish we had the ircv3 extension that let you have unicode nicks.
20:09:28 <b_jonas> hmm, is that OK or is that a botloop risk in the future?
20:09:46 <b_jonas> it's basically the same as that
20:10:15 <b_jonas> I have to test that on freenode
20:10:30 <esolangs> <zzo38> I wouldn't consider Perl to be so "esoteric" but it does seem to be unusual in some ways. I have a list of unusual (or otherwise notable) features of programming languages, so if you know then you can add it, I suppose
20:10:34 <esolangs> <b_jonas> `echo j-bot: echo 'hi'
20:10:36 <esolangs> <j-bot> HackEso: |security violation: echo
20:10:47 <fizzie> HackEso's main anti-loop defence is that non-breaking space in front of non-alphanumeric first characters.
20:10:59 <fizzie> It kind of doesn't work for bots that respond to "nick:" prefixes.
20:11:02 <b_jonas> yeah, basically the same as how perlbot is invoked
20:11:05 <simcop2387> perlbot will throttle itself but it won't try to break a loop itself
20:11:05 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [woldrich] [woldrich > you] [well this] [well, it] [wonderwall] [hello there] [tl;dr] [wolfram] [wantarray] [webdragon]
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20:11:50 <simcop2387> that said i can easily just tell it to ignore the other bots if needed
20:12:23 <b_jonas> yes, j-bot can do that too
20:12:45 <fizzie> You might tell it to ignore HackEso and perhaps fungot. Though I guess traditionally we should get one botloop in first.
20:12:45 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, no doubt, however, also like to thank you and your house has understood this in as much as does parliament that the number of people who are in the process. of course, the quality of those jobs.
20:13:10 <nakilon> for now velik is almost loop-safe because the rasel output is prefixed with "output: "
20:13:18 <fizzie> \assuming there's no error for *all* text that starts with a backslash, only the ones that are specific commands, then I think conflicts are unlikely.
20:14:54 <b_jonas> I'll have to look at that in more detail, because that sounds like there might be botloops that you can only start by changing your nick to a bot command
20:15:39 <b_jonas> though if output is prefixed by output: that does sound safe
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20:19:53 <b_jonas> > symbol "perlbot echo hi"
20:19:55 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: symbol :: [Char] -> t
20:19:55 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘isSymbol’ (imported from Data.Char)
20:20:30 <b_jonas> yeah, but then it prefixes the output with lambdabot, and I don't think you can trigger lambdabot that way
20:20:48 <nakilon> oh it does not respond with bot-level exception like "HTTPRequestTimeOut 408 Request Timeout" here -- it PRIVMSGs it to me
20:20:53 <fizzie> Was going to say, I've seen people do the @run thing.
20:21:29 <perlbot> lambdabot: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [.ec] [.eg] [.es] [each] [easy] [.hi.us] [high] [e] [ed] [.ee]
20:21:42 <b_jonas> > text "wait what? @echo hi"
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20:22:09 <fizzie> > text "perlbot echo @run 123"
20:22:18 <perlbot> lambdabot: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [.ec] [.eg] [.es] [each] [easy] [.hi.us] [high] [e] [ed] [.ee]
20:22:41 <fizzie> In the above, just replace "123" with something that generates text "..." and you'd be done.
20:22:41 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @echo hi"
20:22:43 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "perlbot!~perlbot@71.76.76.1", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esolangs",":lambdabot: @echo hi"]
20:23:08 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\""
20:23:13 <b_jonas> that's absolutely loopable
20:23:24 <b_jonas> I will wait a little bit of time before I actually loop it though
20:23:35 <b_jonas> since I specifically asked simcop to join it here
20:23:57 <fizzie> I've got nothing to do with either perlbot or lambdabot, so I'll just make some popcorn and watch.
20:23:59 <perlbot> b_jonas: Sorry, no plugin named ignore found.
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20:25:03 <b_jonas> I mean I can make a loop that I can break, but still
20:25:33 <b_jonas> simcop2387: can you please make perlbot ignore lambdabot?
20:25:46 <b_jonas> int-e: can you please make lambdabot ignore perlbot?
20:26:18 <fizzie> $deity: can you please make all bots sentient, so they can decide not to get stuck on loops? Wait, maybe that's got some more implications.
20:26:23 <b_jonas> perlbot echo @ignore perlbot
20:26:36 <shachaf> That's not even the command.
20:27:03 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @ignore perlbot"
20:27:05 <perlbot> lambdabot: @ignore perlbot
20:27:29 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @ignore +perlbot"
20:27:30 <perlbot> lambdabot: @ignore +perlbot
20:27:37 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @ignore -perlbot"
20:27:39 <perlbot> lambdabot: @ignore -perlbot
20:27:41 <shachaf> That's not how that command works anyway.
20:27:52 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @ignore + perlbot"
20:27:54 <perlbot> lambdabot: @ignore + perlbot
20:27:54 <shachaf> You can't @ignore without privileges.
20:28:05 <b_jonas> you can't even ignore you?
20:28:14 <b_jonas> j-bot has a special command to ignore you
20:28:18 <shachaf> Privileges are checked before any command code is run.
20:28:18 <b_jonas> which works without privilages
20:28:30 <b_jonas> it's not the normal ignore command, a different command
20:31:09 <b_jonas> weird, the lambdabot ignore command isn't even in the whatisdb. I thought it had all lambdabot commands.
20:31:14 <HackEso> ignore(8jevalbot) - ignore messages from the given irc nick
20:32:53 <b_jonas> although now I should add perlbot commands to the whatisdb too
20:33:57 <HackEso> whatis(1) - display one-line manual page descriptions \ whatis(1hackeso) - display one-line manual page descriptions \ whatis(5hackeso) - no description
20:34:23 <b_jonas> it's mostly manpage headers, but I added a bunch of bot commands for fun
20:35:01 <b_jonas> including "all" HackEso commands, except I think one that has a newline in it which the format of this whatisdb doesn't allow or something silly like that
20:35:08 <HackEso> b_jonas: nothing appropriate.
20:35:43 <b_jonas> but of course there are new HackEso commands since
20:35:55 <HackEso> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. He is often too busy with appeasing the M:tG gods to make any sense.
20:36:11 <cd> bit like the `info script my Hackbot instance has.
20:36:20 <b_jonas> I mean having manpages for HackEso commands actually makes some sort of sense,
20:36:26 <b_jonas> and then I went from that to other bots by analogy
20:36:35 <cd> `` cat ${which whatis}
20:36:36 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ${which whatis}: bad substitution
20:36:59 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/python3 \ import sys, os, re \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print("whatis what?") \ sys.exit(1) \ else: \ argorg = [] \ argfoldv = [] \ foundv = [] \ for arg in sys.argv[1:]: \ argorg.append(arg) \ argfoldv.append(arg.casefold()) \ foundv.append(False) \ with open(os.environ.get("HACKENV","/hackenv") + "/share/whatis", errors="surrogateescape") as whatisdb: \ for line in whatisdb: \
20:37:18 <cd> i just got in bed for a nap, so I’m tired and on phone :P
20:37:45 <b_jonas> ``` url $(type -p whatis) # might be more useful
20:37:47 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/whatis
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21:03:23 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\"" -- just to check if any of the ignores are set
21:15:45 <b_jonas> int-e: please make lamdbabot ignore perlbot
21:16:23 <int-e> perlbot echo @run text "hi"
21:16:38 <b_jonas> I'll have to wait for simcop then
21:16:40 <int-e> anywa, I can't because I already did
21:16:44 <b_jonas> to make perlbot ignore lambdabot
21:17:06 <int-e> also, who is lamdbabot ;)
21:17:10 <b_jonas> int-e: this one is trivial to turn to a botloop, with the defined value or quine on either side
21:17:33 <int-e> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\""
21:17:45 <int-e> huh, I thought I did
21:18:06 <int-e> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\""
21:21:07 <b_jonas> this still sounds like you might be able to get j-bot and perlbot in a botloop if you give the right invocation and nick away right before one of the bots wants to connect btw
21:21:26 <b_jonas> but I will have to think a bit if there's an easier way
21:24:33 <b_jonas> apparently unaffiliated cloaks start with "user/" on libera, not "unaffiliated/"
21:24:50 <esolangs> <zzo38> Do you know what (if anything) to write about the things I mentioned adding into wisdom file? I don't know, by myself.
21:25:01 <esolangs> <zzo38> b_jonas: I suppose there is the advantage being shorter
21:29:15 <esolangs> <zzo38> (Although, I would like the option of forward-DNS-based cloaking, that allows you to use any domain name that resolves to the address that you are connecting from, in addition to the cloaking that is already implemented; this can be helpful when you cannot configure the reverse DNS, or if you have multiple domain names and want only one of them for IRC)
21:30:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't really see what the advantage is of DNS hostnames in hostmasks at all, as opposed to just ip addresses, unless it's because hostnames are sometimes shorter, especially for ipv6, but we could abbreviate ips to such short base64 strings or something that this is almost never worth
21:32:53 <esolangs> <zzo38> Yes, IP addresses would also help especially if you wan to avoid a reverse DNS lookup (or any DNS lookup) on the server, for efficiency; it is what I do for my own server stuff.
21:33:30 <esolangs> <zzo38> However, the advantage of supporting host names is in case you have a dynamic IP address but still want to identify your computer in the IRC logs in this way.
21:33:31 <b_jonas> if it weren't for having to moderate spammers, I'd prefer if the hostname field just showed a dummy value, or something entirely different than a hostname, instead of an actual hostname or ip address
21:34:16 <b_jonas> but ip addresses help channel ops ban spam quickly
21:34:23 <esolangs> <zzo38> Some IRC servers do that, sometimes needing a +x mode (which is sometimes the default). However, if it has the format of a domain name, but it is not valid, then probably ".invalid" should be added to specify that it is invalid.
21:35:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think we already have some pretty well supported IRC syntax to mark fake hostnames, used for cloaks and services
21:35:58 <esolangs> <zzo38> There is the format with slashes, which are not valid in domain names, so that works, I think.
21:36:06 <esolangs> <zzo38> (But not all IRC networks use this)
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22:11:54 <HackEso> .ebyaM .erutuf eht fo dnal eht si arebiL
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22:25:20 <HackEso> .dronF .sgnihT eht llA detnevbenat benaT dnA .benaT tog tognuF dnA .tognuF togeb egnufeB dnA .egnufeB saw gninnigeB eht nI
22:25:45 <arseniiv> was there a fourth question mark in unicode, hm?..
22:26:28 <HackEso> ;? No such file or directory
22:26:49 <HackEso> ⁇? No such file or directory
22:27:01 <HackEso> [U+061F ARABIC QUESTION MARK]
22:27:22 <arseniiv> there’s at least one more ؟, ⸮:
22:27:26 <HackEso> [U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
22:27:32 <HackEso> ⸮? No such file or directory
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22:28:34 <int-e> I find this trend very questionable
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22:29:34 <arseniiv> would it be good to have a wisdom about ¿?
22:29:55 <arseniiv> oh, I mean about those two other ones
22:31:15 <esolangs> [[Whopper]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83233 * Hyperdawg * (+1075) Add some stuff
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22:37:39 <arseniiv> feel free to unlearn this but I hope this will stick :D
22:37:41 <HackEso> ؟ is more than just wisdom
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23:20:00 <salpynx> I had hoped ¿ turned the wisdom upside down (rotate not reflect), but it's just a synonym for ؟
23:20:01 <esolangs> [[Whopper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83234&oldid=83233 * Hyperdawg * (+166)
23:21:02 <salpynx> (found it by looking in the source repo)
23:32:31 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\"" -- lets' try again
23:34:59 <fizzie> Turning characters upside-down is harder than changing their order.
23:35:27 <fizzie> If memory serves, Unicode doesn't even really have a good upside-down set for the English alphabet, you end up using silly approximations?
23:37:09 <fizzie> According to one online converter, this is not very wise -> ǝsıʍ ʎɹǝʌ ʇou sı sıɥʇ.
23:37:23 <fizzie> Which is okay, I guess, but not great.
23:37:33 <fizzie> Especially the i → ı part.
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23:43:38 <salpynx> `` python3 -c 'print("sı\u0323 sı\u0323ɥʇ")'
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23:52:33 <HackEso> Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggcf://rfbynatf.bet/>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba RSarg be QNYarg.)
23:52:58 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:18:32 <HackEso> decientcoin kolmograntcoin tmmcoin duodcoin locatcoin kuffcoin brisccoin yoteritaftgnomagarabcoin regexicoin shoussencoin mertatecoin sincoin digicoin geoboaftcoin vivatiocoin kipsiancoin ooocoin amertcoin selfcoin tatcoin
00:18:48 <int-e> can I has an obsoletecoin
00:19:11 <int-e> Oh "selfcoin" is good, somehow
00:19:37 <HackEso> kildcoin atttecoin aricoin ollecoin chalcoin procoin puzzliccoin dogcoin aubeoncoin enfingperloadskydozhleyearelycoin stacoin alagucoin rubesyzcoin moncoin circutecoin udagerocoin inlamicrecoin scocoin tincoin sarcoin
00:20:08 <chibi> Yeah, I'll pay in enfingperloadskydozhleyearelycoin, is that okay?
00:23:04 <int-e> chibi: is that the cryptocurrency equivalent of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones
00:23:23 <cd> `` cat $(which coins)
00:23:24 <HackEso> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
00:23:37 <cd> `` which words
00:23:43 <cd> `` cat $(which words)
00:23:44 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #warn "Optional module Math::Random::MT::Perl not found.\n" if $@; \ } \ \ #constants \ my @options = qw(eng-1M
00:24:50 <esolangs> [[Whopper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83235&oldid=83234 * Hyperdawg * (-166) /* hello world */
00:25:22 <esolangs> [[User:Hyperdawg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83236&oldid=82458 * Hyperdawg * (+14)
00:27:02 <fizzie> I didn't remember it was a mixture of both English and esolang names, I thought it was just the latter. Plus the -coin suffix.
00:30:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83237&oldid=81589 * Hyperdawg * (+79) /* can you make a video on my language? */ new section
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00:43:16 <b_jonas> int-e: Raid stones => or those million dollar bills used for some questionable banking reasons in the UK
00:44:49 <b_jonas> the ones that are supposedly legally valid cash and you can pay with them anywhere, but if you try everyone will know you've stolen it (or worse, counterfeited) and they'll call the police and delay the payment on that account
00:45:08 <b_jonas> not really weirder than some of the other UK traditions really
00:47:42 <b_jonas> hmm, this spam "newsletter" that I get every week, why did I just get three copies of it?
01:04:27 <cd> fizzie: can I have a copy of hackbot's fetch from your instance? It's being super weird and I cannot get it working for whatever reason.
01:04:58 <cd> specifically, multibot/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch
01:06:11 <fizzie> It's exactly the same file as https://github.com/fis/hackbot/blob/master/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch
01:07:10 <cd> I'll keep debugging then, was worth a shot seeing if you modified it
01:08:16 <fizzie> The only changes I have in the running instance from the commit in github are: in multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd, the `ignored_nick` list is changed (I should probably add more bots to it), and the lock file is changed from "lock" to os.environ['HACKENV']+".lock"); and in multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox, the /usr/bin/umlbox path is changed and `'--env', 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8',` is added to the list of flags.
01:09:11 <cd> Yea I prodded it a bit more than that, so i'll need to remember what I changed
01:09:36 <fizzie> I've got a commit in the checkout in a branch called `live`, which I rebase when I make changes to the public code.
01:10:08 <Soni> is it common to put esolangs in video games?
01:10:15 <fizzie> (So seeing what I changed is `git diff -r master -r live`.)
01:11:05 <fizzie> Existing languages developed for some other purposes, or languages made for that specific purpose that would still count as esolangs?
01:12:08 <Soni> e.g. using brainfuck as a shader language for in-game computers (that use a real language on the game server)
01:12:24 <cd> `rakudo --help
01:12:24 <HackEso> rakudo? No such file or directory
01:12:36 <Soni> or, alternatively, command blocks...
01:12:37 <cd> meh, not surprised i couldn't get Rakudo to work inside UML
01:12:40 <cd> it seems to dislike it aha
01:13:20 <fizzie> I don't think that's very common. In fact, I don't think I've heard of any examples.
01:13:45 <cd> yea I was quite surprised, it works fine outside UML but inside it gets upset and crashes instantly
01:14:14 <fizzie> That was about esolangs in video games, to be clear, not about Rakudo.
01:14:27 <Soni> surprised https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Command_Block isn't anywhere on the wiki
01:14:50 <Soni> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nViIUfDMJg
01:15:16 <fizzie> Soni: I think there's been some discussion about whether those kind of things should count, with no clear conclusion.
01:16:02 <Soni> what are the arguments against?
01:16:03 <fizzie> I think someone was talking about writing an article about the TIS-100/Shenzhen/EXAPUNKS assembly languages.
01:16:34 <cd> my gut tells me those don't really count but I can't really say why
01:16:37 <Soni> uh, we don't know about TIS-100/Shenzhen/EXAPUNKS, but command blocks are exciting to us
01:17:42 <fizzie> Yeah, just saying, that's when the topic of languages designed to be part of gameplay came up. Though the Minecraft context might be even closer.
01:20:21 <fizzie> In any case, I don't personally have anything against having articles about them, and I don't remember any particularly convincing arguments.
01:20:21 <fizzie> There's a https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spacechem_Programming_Language page but that's very stubby.
01:20:22 <b_jonas> Soni: it is common to have certain games, especially sandbox simulation games, happen to grow languages that turn out to be more powerful than the creator of the game intended, in the TeXbook appendix D sense,
01:20:22 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
01:20:22 <perlbot> b_jonas: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [purebasic] [prezses] [_purpose_0] [_purpose_1] [_purpose_2] [_purpose_3] [_purpose_4] [_purpose_5] [_purpose_6] [_purpose_7]
01:20:24 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
01:20:44 <b_jonas> or sometimes there's an existing game that works well and the developer sees how easy it would be to add a language on top of them to add some programming capabilities
01:21:06 <Soni> b_jonas: you mean TeX AVR?
01:21:59 <b_jonas> the latter applies to shapez.io and Factorio, the games I've recently been playing, which deliberately have some programming as part of gameplay capabilities added into them, but as those programming capabilities are weird, they automatically become an esolang where people try to solve tasks that the languages don't make easy and come up with intersting constructions like you have to in an esolang
01:23:05 <Soni> hmm. yeah so, are they or are they not esolangs?
01:23:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yit * New user account
01:23:58 <b_jonas> the former applies to OpenTTD (and its ancestor TTDPatch), which originally just added pre-signals to make it possible to make better train networks, where making train networks is the orignal goal of the game, but then it turns out that trains plus presignals creates an interesting esolang with surprising constructions possible
01:24:30 <b_jonas> Soni: dunno, I don't particularly care about the definition question here
01:26:22 <b_jonas> oh yeah, minecraft. I'm not too experienced in that, but I believe that has some of those programming as gameplay capabilities too
01:26:42 <b_jonas> it might be the most famous example
01:26:45 <chibi> OpenTTD seems like the kinda game that's boring to play normally but really interesting to optimize
01:27:00 <chibi> I wonder if (Open)RCT2 has anything similar.
01:27:28 <b_jonas> chibi: yeah, there's an entire OpenTTDcoop community for that, with inscrutable internal customs and lots of scarcely documented game knowledge
01:27:44 <Soni> is raw iCE40 bitstreams an esolang?
01:28:14 <b_jonas> they know more about OpenTTD programming than anyone else, but it's hard to learn from them
01:28:25 <b_jonas> luckily they have IRC presence on oftc, which helps to some extent
01:28:38 <b_jonas> (well, if you're the IRC kind of person, which I assume here)
01:29:12 <Soni> (saying redstone is an esolang is like saying FPGA bitstreams are an esolang tbh :p)
01:29:27 <b_jonas> and of course there's some Super Mario Maker programming too, definitely esoteric but much more limited in general purpose computation capabilities than the previous examples
01:29:30 <chibi> Interesting, interesting. Ooh, DF comes to mind too
01:29:46 <cd> DF is probably turing complete in more ways than we've even found aha
01:30:05 <b_jonas> I'm not familiar with Dwarf Fortress programming, but I think there were some Dwarf Fortress players on this channel, there definitely are somewhere on ... um, freenode?
01:30:17 <cd> i'm right here
01:30:55 <cd> the most common way is mechanisms + minecarts computation
01:31:05 <b_jonas> feel free to ask me about shapez.io and factorio by the way. I don't know everything, obviously, but still
01:31:08 <cd> which is just a derivative of billard ball computation, with extra logical tools to make it compact
01:31:25 <cd> minecarts in their current form in fact behave like billard balls :P
01:31:50 <cd> usage of fluids is good for things like memory cells when you need compactness
01:32:01 <Soni> hmm are powerpoint and CSS esolangs?
01:32:04 <cd> fluids are also probably TC, but i've not seen a proof
01:32:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83238&oldid=83226 * Yit * (+83) adding myself
01:33:08 <Soni> well hm https://esolangs.org/wiki/(P%E2%84%A2TM%E2%84%A2)%E2%84%A2
01:39:25 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83239&oldid=50266 * Enoua5 * (+37) Update dead link
01:44:09 <b_jonas> Soni: pwoerpoint is definitely one of those accidental thingies
01:44:52 <b_jonas> "fluids are also probably TC, but i've not seen a proof" => do you have exponential quantity of fluids with as large storage tanks? if so, just implement Waterfall
01:45:26 <b_jonas> I think you only need like single exponential if you do it right, but I'm not completely sure
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02:46:12 <salpynx> Something I discovered a few days ago: John Conway built a fluid machine https://nautil.us/blog/this-early-computer-was-based-on-a-urinal-flush-mechanism
02:46:43 <b_jonas> perlbot, prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
02:46:43 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
02:46:43 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, madam commissioner, i do not feel it would also be an option. that is the reason why some members are left feeling slightly perplexed that they envisage an institution which is also true of the community which was only accepted when austria joined the european union
02:46:52 <perlbot> b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
02:50:05 <b_jonas> I wonder if we should try to break this category of bot loops by making it so that when a bot like j-bot or perlbot or lambdabot prefixes the nick of the requestor to a reply, it uses a delimiter after that nick that's never accepted as a delimiter for invoking a bot, so that you can't confuse invoking a bot from a bot replying you
02:50:36 <b_jonas> I didn't think of that when designing j-bot's terrible interface, but now I wonder
02:50:42 <b_jonas> what delimiter would be useful for that?
02:51:10 <int-e> the usual invisibl ^O?
02:52:49 <int-e> lambdabot prefixes most replies with a space in an attempt to prevent this kind of thing... but perlbot is too generous in how it is addresed
02:52:59 <b_jonas> j-bot accepts too many delimiters in that context
02:53:24 <int-e> s/prevent/mitigate/ is more appropriate, I guess
02:53:57 <int-e> and there are some exceptions, most notably @where, which this channel has abused plenty
02:54:36 <b_jonas> int-e: I'm more worried about the kind of botloop where two bots reply each other with a nick prefix, like xbot says "ybot: foo" then ybot says "xbot: foo" (both on channel). the hard part is starting such a loop, which usually requires a race condition, but sometimes there are other sneaky ways, and I'd rather if the bots were designed such that such a loop can't be sustained, not just can't be started.
02:54:48 <b_jonas> but the control-O may be a good idea
02:55:06 <int-e> see, lambdabot wouldn't accept that with a leading space
02:55:35 <int-e> right, hence the potential botloop with lambdabot earlier
02:55:49 <int-e> well, nothing will be foolproof
02:56:25 <int-e> I guess one could do the fungot thing, stop replying after 5 messages from the same nick.
02:56:25 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i am happy to take our entrepreneurs, investors and companies there. it will no longer exist. as this is contrary to the texts themselves. now, europe’s contribution to the work of these authorities and to establish it as a substantial step forward, but rome was not built in a day. should not we in the group quite rightly, that the complexity of the groups.
02:56:39 <int-e> but that would be really awful for lambdabot's ordinary use :)
02:57:36 <b_jonas> yeah, a control-O after the nick seems to work decently
02:58:02 <esolangs> <zzo38> I think that, if a loop is detected, then perhaps NOTICE should be used for the reponse, and it should never respond to a NOTICE; if a loop continues to be detected after that, then it should ignore further messages for some amount of time, until it resets.
02:58:16 <int-e> prefixing with ^O is way easier...
02:59:05 <esolangs> <zzo38> That may work, but maybe it should be right at the beginning, rather than after the nick, I think
02:59:10 <b_jonas> I also have to be careful about bot loops in private message. I recall three such cases:
02:59:40 <b_jonas> one with buubot1 which just lets anyone ask it to send a reply in private message to anyone else, which is just plain silly;
03:00:17 <b_jonas> one with j-bot which is much more relaxed (though not strictly) about invocation syntax in private message than in public, and one with bfbot which had a bug about not escaping newlines or something like that
03:00:36 <b_jonas> so I have to be careful about private message syntax too
03:00:51 <esolangs> <zzo38> Even so, if there are still loops despite ^O then something will have to be done, even though that will probably mitigate it in most cases, but not necessarily all.
03:01:00 <b_jonas> perhaps I should add the same nick and delimiter prefix in the reply even when I reply to a private message
03:01:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: sometimes sending a notice during heuristically detected potential loops is not a bad idea
03:02:26 <b_jonas> I mean, the reason why we usually don't use notice is because it annoys some people because of their broken clients, but a bot loop is probably even more annoying
03:04:13 <int-e> I'll remove lambdabot from the channel before I change it to use notice
03:04:58 <esolangs> <zzo38> Yes, that is why you might do only if a loop is detected
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03:26:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BadBoyHaloCat * New user account
03:28:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83240&oldid=83238 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+162)
03:39:42 <esolangs> [[Feta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83241&oldid=79598 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+265)
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05:20:32 <nakilon> I made project euler 1 one-liner and wanted to show but realised the irc command can't pass stdin
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05:57:32 <esolangs> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83242&oldid=63185 * Bangyen * (+131)
06:14:51 <shachaf> Do you have any neato fancy algorithms for me today?
06:14:57 <shachaf> You don't have to have invented them (though I don't see how you could possibly have avoided it)
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06:25:18 <Taneb> I do not :( I've been rather algorithm-ignorant as of late
06:30:55 <Taneb> Kruskal;s algorithm is neat, though
06:33:57 <shachaf> Hmm, minimum spanning trees.
06:34:26 <shachaf> That's the thing where almost every algorithm you can think of solves it optimally, right?
06:36:20 <Taneb> Yeah, Prim's and Kruskal's algorithm are both very greedy and get an optimal solution
06:43:40 <shachaf> I am also very greedy, but I don't get an optimal solution. :-(
06:44:14 <Taneb> Perhaps you should try to find a minimal spanning tree
06:44:39 <shachaf> Hmm, I'd rather find a cat.
06:44:56 <shachaf> Well, my neighbor has a cat now, and I interacted with that cat the other day. So perhaps my solution is close to optimal.
06:48:05 <shachaf> Is this channel publicly logged right now?
06:48:26 <shachaf> Oh, I guess it is. Oh well.
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06:55:43 <nakilon> did you neighbor just told you you can forget about the cat?
06:57:21 -!- ic has left (Leaving).
07:08:00 <nakilon> woah, the gist.githubusercontent.com is cached (
07:09:14 <nakilon> it didn't update the /raw/ file until either ~2 minutes passed or I refreshed it in a browser with trailing '?'
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08:13:46 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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08:16:15 <velik> available commands: rasel; usage help: \help <cmd>
08:16:27 <velik> \rasel <RASEL code>; \rasel -stdin <any char><stdin><same char><RASEL code>; timelimit=60s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
08:16:48 <nakilon> \rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj
08:16:49 <velik> nakilon, output: "Hello, World!", exit code: 0
08:17:04 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin |1 2 3|& .& .& .@
08:17:05 <velik> nakilon, output: "1 2 3 ", exit code: 0
08:17:31 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 10 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a-
08:17:32 <velik> nakilon, output: "23 ", exit code: 0
08:17:38 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1000 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a-
08:17:40 <velik> nakilon, output: "233168 ", exit code: 0
08:18:10 <nakilon> and this is the project euler 1
08:19:35 <nakilon> used b_jonas idea about one-liners with 'j'
08:22:57 <nakilon> oh, btw, I was wrong about the prefix -- it appends with "nickname, output: " -- I'll probably change it
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08:25:12 -!- velik has joined.
08:25:21 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1000 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a-
08:25:24 <velik> output: "233168 ", exit code: 0
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08:43:34 <nakilon> is there no easy way to link to a specific wiki page section?
08:44:51 <nakilon> oh, the links seem to exist and can be copied from the "Table of contents" but if TOC isn't added to page then I see no way
08:45:06 <nakilon> when you hover on the subtitle it doesn't show up anything
08:47:13 <b_jonas> nakilon: just read the page source to find the anchor names. I do that for a lot of websites that do have anchors or id attributes but not tables of contents linking to them.
08:48:22 <b_jonas> nakilon: or preview an edit where you add __TOC__ at the start to get the anchor name
09:00:11 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83243&oldid=81013 * Nakilon * (+445) telling that you can join the IRC channel and ask velik to execute the code
09:00:56 <b_jonas> it's a plain HTML website with proper anchor names for each section. be glad for that. don't you browse any of the modern nonsense web, all dynamic and unusable?
09:03:36 <nakilon> I use news via RSS and use old.reddit.com
09:05:10 <nakilon> and I suppose the hover anchor appearance does not need JS, only CSS
09:12:53 <myname> b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_space
09:15:24 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83244&oldid=83243 * Nakilon * (-3) /* Nth Fibonacci number */
09:26:47 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83245&oldid=83244 * Nakilon * (+3) Undo revision 83244 by [[Special:Contributions/Nakilon|Nakilon]] ([[User talk:Nakilon|talk]])
09:34:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ch44d * New user account
09:46:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83246&oldid=83240 * Ch44d * (+128) Hello, I am Chad!
09:50:07 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83247&oldid=83245 * Nakilon * (-6) shorter Fibonacci
10:05:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aonodensetsu * New user account
10:08:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Morganbarrett * New user account
10:12:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83248&oldid=83246 * Aonodensetsu * (+194)
10:18:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83249&oldid=83248 * Morganbarrett * (+150)
10:19:03 <esolangs> [[User:Morganbarrett]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83250 * Morganbarrett * (+0) Created blank page
10:25:16 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83251 * Aonodensetsu * (+135) Created page with "[[Category: 2021]] This is a stub of my personal page, hello to all that visited! Esolangs published: While(true){ (currently editing)"
10:25:34 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83252&oldid=83251 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
10:26:12 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83253&oldid=83252 * Aonodensetsu * (+6)
10:42:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cypooos * New user account
10:47:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83254&oldid=83249 * Cypooos * (+212) Added my introduction !
10:49:49 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83255&oldid=78526 * Morganbarrett * (+296)
10:51:18 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83256&oldid=83255 * Morganbarrett * (+11)
10:52:36 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83257 * Aonodensetsu * (+251) Created page with "[[Category:2021]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:High-level]] [[Category:Implemented]] [[Category:Self-modifying]] [[Category:Cell-based]] Category:Linear bounded automat..."
10:53:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83258&oldid=83209 * Aonodensetsu * (+18)
10:58:00 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83259&oldid=83257 * Aonodensetsu * (+346)
10:59:02 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83260&oldid=83259 * Aonodensetsu * (+955)
10:59:56 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83261&oldid=83260 * Aonodensetsu * (+20)
11:00:42 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83262&oldid=83261 * Aonodensetsu * (+523)
11:01:50 <nakilon> should we have an "Esoteric IRC bots" category?
11:02:10 <nakilon> I see at least 4 such pages
11:02:19 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83263&oldid=83262 * Aonodensetsu * (+7)
11:08:41 <fizzie> There's 10 bots (some not currently active) listed on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal with 7 of them having articles.
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11:08:49 <fizzie> Not sure if it needs a category though.
11:09:15 <fizzie> There's a process for categories that's documented somewhere on there, if you want.
11:10:00 <int-e> (my feeling is that the IRC bots are too narrow a category. IRC though, might just be broad enough to be worthwhile)
11:10:37 <fizzie> Hmm, that'd be taggable on IRP too.
11:11:46 <fizzie> I don't think it falls under any of the established dimensions of categorization, but there's already a few miscellaneous ones.
11:12:10 <fizzie> In any case, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization is where this discussion should be happening, as a matter of policy. :)
11:12:37 <fizzie> (That talk page could do with some archiving of inactive topics at some point, maybe.)
11:12:43 <esolangs> [[User:Icecream17/Arbitrary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83264&oldid=83101 * Int-e * (+1) pluralize (there is no Language category)
11:13:52 <fizzie> If you're doing spring cleaning, "Category:stupid family" probably shouldn't exist.
11:14:33 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83265&oldid=83263 * Aonodensetsu * (+59)
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11:15:13 <esolangs> [[Birb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83266&oldid=82033 * Int-e * (+2) category: Theoretical -> Unimplemented
11:17:01 <int-e> fizzie: ah, that has 2 members. I only checked the ones with 1 member and no existing category page.
11:17:22 <int-e> Because those are usually typos/miscategorizations
11:17:36 <fizzie> Yeah, I think that one's intentional, but still not good.
11:18:12 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, how do those bottom navigation tables on the real wiki work? Are they category-driven, or something else? Because that's the sort of thing you could plausibly have on an IRC bot page...
11:18:18 <int-e> We also have two empty categories with page
11:19:43 <fizzie> (I guess they're just templates maybe.)
11:21:18 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83267&oldid=83265 * Aonodensetsu * (+44)
11:21:24 <nakilon> fungot is in category People, lol
11:21:25 <fungot> nakilon: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of my colleagues, but sooner or later) this must be recognized that in some member states are interpreting the text in this case it concerns a particularly grave and important issue that we have not just government ministers coming from their national administrations. the parliamentary democracy that led the commission to negotiate on the details, we are coming to the same
11:21:41 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83268&oldid=83267 * Aonodensetsu * (+4)
11:22:07 <Taneb> fizzie: hmm, I always assumed they were templates
11:22:32 <fizzie> Taneb: Yeah, there was a tiny "view template" link in a corner, now that I actually looked closely at one.
11:22:41 <Taneb> e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Italy_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest
11:22:41 <fizzie> Templates based on a "Navbox" template, it looked like.
11:23:10 <fizzie> ... the one I was looking was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Eurovision_Song_Contest ...
11:23:12 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83269&oldid=83268 * Aonodensetsu * (-21)
11:23:42 -!- APic has quit (Quit: Trying whether Auto-Identify with NickServ works).
11:23:47 <fizzie> (Getting to sixth place and beating Sweden has been a big thing back home.)
11:23:50 -!- APic has joined.
11:24:41 <Taneb> My partner's Italian and their city is in the running for host next year, so we're going to try to attend in person
11:24:49 <Taneb> I guess it's a recent event that's on both of our minds
11:25:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83270&oldid=82103 * Nakilon * (+452) /* I propose the category "Esoteric IRC bots" */ new section
11:25:10 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83271&oldid=83269 * Aonodensetsu * (+26)
11:25:48 <fizzie> On that note, is there any way of getting those navboxes on m.wikipedia? Because it's been real annoying when browsing 'pedia on the phone.
11:25:59 <fizzie> Especially when you know a page would have one, and it would have exactly the link you need.
11:26:11 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83272&oldid=83253 * Aonodensetsu * (+16)
11:26:23 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83273&oldid=83272 * Aonodensetsu * (+0)
11:26:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83274&oldid=83258 * Aonodensetsu * (+13)
11:27:38 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83275&oldid=83273 * Aonodensetsu * (-7)
11:27:41 <Taneb> "Templates using the navbox (navbox) or nomobile (sidebar) classes are not displayed on the mobile web site of English Wikipedia" :(
11:27:45 <Taneb> (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Navbox )
11:29:06 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83276&oldid=83271 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
11:30:11 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83277&oldid=83276 * Aonodensetsu * (+101)
11:32:19 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83278&oldid=83277 * Aonodensetsu * (-6)
11:33:05 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83279&oldid=83278 * Aonodensetsu * (-28)
11:35:00 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83280&oldid=83279 * Aonodensetsu * (+127)
11:36:11 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83281&oldid=83280 * Aonodensetsu * (+177)
11:36:37 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83282&oldid=83281 * Aonodensetsu * (+0)
11:36:56 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83283&oldid=83282 * Aonodensetsu * (-4)
11:37:52 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83284&oldid=83283 * Aonodensetsu * (+12)
11:38:05 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83285&oldid=83284 * Aonodensetsu * (+0)
11:38:30 <esolangs> [[DotSnap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83286&oldid=83219 * Nooder Coob * (-1094) Blanked the page
11:39:08 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83287&oldid=83285 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
11:39:42 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83288&oldid=83287 * Aonodensetsu * (-6)
11:43:57 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83289&oldid=83288 * Aonodensetsu * (+2475)
11:45:09 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83290&oldid=83289 * Aonodensetsu * (+46)
11:46:32 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83291&oldid=83290 * Aonodensetsu * (+79)
11:46:51 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83292&oldid=83291 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* How to define a function? */
11:47:02 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83293&oldid=83292 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* How to define a function? */
11:48:37 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83294&oldid=83293 * Aonodensetsu * (-36) /* Naming of functions */
11:48:46 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83295&oldid=83294 * Aonodensetsu * (-3) /* Naming of functions */
11:49:25 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83296&oldid=83295 * Aonodensetsu * (+64) /* Naming of functions */
11:49:49 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83297&oldid=83296 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* Undefined functions */
11:49:58 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83298&oldid=83297 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* Why CALL? */
11:50:37 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83299&oldid=83298 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* Why LOOK? */
11:52:27 <int-e> fizzie: Germany, meanwhile, still hasn't managed to get that coveted last place... hard to do when your competitor gets a perfect score.
11:52:50 <nakilon> oh that's a guy with [Category: 2021]
11:53:09 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83300&oldid=83299 * Aonodensetsu * (+334) /* Why LOOK? */
11:53:28 <fizzie> int-e: The BBC narration during the vote-counting was a bit painful to listen to.
11:53:41 <int-e> I won't listen to it then :)
11:54:06 <int-e> (if it can even be found... I suppose it can)
11:54:38 <fizzie> I'm sure it's in the "iPlayer" (BBC's online thing), though I guess it might be geo-restricted.
11:54:42 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83301&oldid=83300 * Aonodensetsu * (+11) /* Why LOOK? */
11:54:50 <fizzie> Especially the part where "we" (I don't know which country is "we" at this point) got 0 from the public vote as well.
11:55:24 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83302&oldid=83301 * Aonodensetsu * (+31) /* Conditional jumps? */
11:55:26 <int-e> fizzie: 0 is an achievement: https://nitter.fdn.fr/ariadneconill/status/1396035169828675585#m
11:56:47 <fizzie> I watched the bad-bitrate iPlayer stream because I keep forgetting the cheap DVB stick I have for RTL-SDR reasons can actually do it's nominal job too.
11:56:58 <fizzie> Not sure if the subjective quality of DVB-T is any better though.
11:57:07 <nakilon> that website makes an awful google translate job
11:57:35 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83303&oldid=83302 * Aonodensetsu * (+13) /* Conditional jumps? */
11:58:05 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83304&oldid=83303 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* What can we do with this? */
11:58:13 <nakilon> int-e it detects my location and writes in Russian
11:58:36 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83305&oldid=83304 * Aonodensetsu * (-72) /* What can we do with this? */
11:58:41 <int-e> nakilon: ah, nasty. it's english for me... maybe it's parsing the HTTP language preferences?
11:59:18 <int-e> (if it was geo location based, it would be german for me)
11:59:48 <nakilon> maybe browser language, yeah
11:59:52 <int-e> it would also be in contradiction to what nitter is supposed to be... non-JS, non-tracking.
12:00:25 <nakilon> locale is in my request headers
12:01:18 <int-e> nakilon: you can replace the nitter.fdn.fr by twitter.com
12:02:16 <nakilon> I mean the https://www.mail-tester.com/test-kxlo1dgf7 link
12:04:48 <int-e> nakilon: Oh. Hmm. But that was in english too when I tried.
12:05:02 <int-e> But I withdraw the rest of the remarks then
12:06:12 <int-e> I did manage to get a 0.7 score on first try though... HELO mail didn't work out well: no reverse DNS, and failed SPF check, both worth -4 points each.
12:06:22 <nakilon> Accept-Language: ru,en-US;q=0.9,en;q=0.8,uk;q=0.7
12:07:00 <int-e> Then -1 for not doing DKIM, and -0.3 because my test mail looked a bit like spam. Fun :)
12:07:17 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83306&oldid=83305 * Aonodensetsu * (+93)
12:07:52 <nakilon> they are doing a clever thing
12:08:20 <nakilon> they make you send an email to the address that they associate with your browser cookies/fingerprint
12:09:44 <fizzie> I should send one of those esolangs.org wiki password recovery emails there, I'm sure it'd score quite badly too.
12:10:21 <int-e> nakilon: (my) cookies are ephemeral at least :P
12:11:14 <nakilon> and the field is empty if you curl
12:11:24 <int-e> but mostly... I'm not really expecting all that much privacy from browsing the web.
12:11:43 <int-e> nakilon: yes, they had all opportunities for fingerprinting the browser that they need
12:12:11 <int-e> after the third test, they ask for payment, so there's some hope that *that* is their primary business model
12:12:34 <int-e> (it's rate limited, 3 free tests per day)
12:12:45 <nakilon> my ISP recently mailed everyone with a link to a service to "test your password"
12:13:00 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83307&oldid=83306 * Aonodensetsu * (-13)
12:13:05 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83308&oldid=83307 * Aonodensetsu * (-34)
12:13:09 <int-e> ugh, was that genuine or spam?
12:13:23 <int-e> . o O ( I test my password every time I log in! )
12:13:35 <nakilon> idk, some another website that "check if your password is leaked"
12:14:12 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83309&oldid=83308 * Aonodensetsu * (+72) /* Implementation */
12:14:20 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83310&oldid=83309 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* External resources */
12:14:33 <int-e> > 48/60 -- 80% is quite impressive
12:15:06 <nakilon> I live in a totally new building where there is only one monopolist ISP so they are free to have higher internet price and send absolute trash emails
12:15:37 <int-e> (users here vs. users there, so take that % with a lot of salt)
12:16:19 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83311&oldid=83310 * Aonodensetsu * (+42) /* External resources */
12:17:19 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83312&oldid=83311 * Aonodensetsu * (-96) /* External resources */
12:17:27 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83313&oldid=83312 * Aonodensetsu * (-2) /* External resources */
12:17:41 <nakilon> usual 100 mbit/s internet in Moscow costs $6, here it's almost $8
12:19:58 <nakilon> and sometimes it routes weirdly, like there were several months of connecting to Finland game servers via France resulting in 3 times higher ping
12:20:28 <nakilon> support said "we can't do anything about this, the internet is magic beyond our responsibilities"
12:41:52 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83314&oldid=83313 * Aonodensetsu * (-54) /* Why LOOK? */
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12:53:13 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83315&oldid=83314 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
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13:20:49 <Deewiant> As all the discussion is here now perhaps the /topic on freenode should be updated to point thisaway?
13:22:02 <cd> Deewiant: the admins over there literally made that against the rules
13:22:11 <cd> so best we can do is prod people over the bridge
13:31:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I read about that ##hntop thing.
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13:32:47 <fizzie> I don't know if I'd describe it as "against the rules", the ("draft") policy just says approximately that channels "that have moved" can be claimed by anyone.
13:33:29 <fizzie> I'd maybe still be a bit wary about putting something in topic specifically, maybe that's how they look for victims.
13:34:31 <fizzie> We could make it official on the wiki, I was kind of considering doing that once our proper community registration goes through. (Still no reply, but I imagine there's quite a queue. Our ticket number is in the 500-600 range.)
13:40:38 <int-e> I think we should add a reference to the topic anyway; if Freenode takes over the channel for that so be it.
13:40:46 <cd> We had ticket #44 and it took quite a while
13:41:11 <cd> int-e: why risk fragmenting the community like that. They’d likely kickban the bridge bot too
13:41:21 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it's also against the rules ("inappropriate advertising") to have "unused channels for the purpose of polluting the channel list results".
13:41:29 <int-e> because the bridge will stop being useful
13:41:48 <int-e> brctl: ignore int-e
13:42:30 <int-e> brctl: unignore int-e
13:42:38 <fizzie> /!\ ;) Re the policy changes: https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/compare/e48c814...4210b31
13:42:42 <int-e> (a bit too early for ignores, but I will do that eventually.
13:42:51 <int-e> fizzie: /!\ yeah I knew about that :)
13:43:41 <int-e> fizzie: And I mean both the "/!\" and the changes.
13:46:17 <int-e> fizzie: Honestly that one is a bit more understandable. The rule lawyer in me suggests +s
13:50:07 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83316 * Cypooos * (+6373) Created the page
13:51:03 <fizzie> I wonder how many people have found the channel by listing, anyway. Probably not a huge fraction.
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13:57:40 <nakilon> I have a feel that "random read and push" is less powerful than "random write and pop"
14:00:47 <nakilon> without random write once the task becomes complex enough (involves several variables) it makes RASEL stack grow infinitely, like the Fibonacci[n] case does in my example
14:01:39 <nakilon> or am I missing some solution
14:15:53 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83317&oldid=83316 * Cypooos * (+155) Correcting some mistakes
14:16:38 <nakilon> or should I finally stop resisting and add random write to RASEL
14:17:34 <int-e> fizzie: I don't recall whether it was one of the (now defunct) mailing lists, or a discussion elsewhere on IRC...
14:17:41 <int-e> but probably not the wiki
14:23:07 <nakilon> I could make the "reverse N top elements on stack" command that can be used as both random read and write
14:23:14 <nakilon> and I feel like I saw some language with it
14:25:14 <Taneb> nakilon: Piet has something a bit like that
14:26:08 <nakilon> actually wiki search re veal a plenty of such
14:28:25 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83318&oldid=83317 * Cypooos * (+168) Added the Categories
14:30:28 <nakilon> hmmm maybe the assumption that "reverse N top elements" can be used for random read and write was too fast
14:30:51 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> We could make it official on the wiki" => if you do that, also switch over what the logs default to on your logs web interface, because I feel like that's part of what makes it official
14:31:20 <nakilon> once you do the reverse you lose the access to all the top values that you were working with
14:33:35 <Taneb> fizzie: queue a couple of days ago was 220 project registrations in the backlog https://twitter.com/liberachat/status/1396029243101007873
14:38:09 <esolangs> [[BALAE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83319&oldid=82560 * WallGraffiti * (+505) Added examples + corrected descriptions of "{" and "}" operators.
14:38:28 <nakilon> okay, I imagine the read(N) now: reverse(N), dup, reverse(N+1), reverse(N-1), reverse(N) -- 5 operations, can it be shorter?
14:39:15 <b_jonas> eventually we will have to speed up redirecting everyone by just making the freenode channel invite only and kicking everyone, but for now it probalby helps more if people see a bridge
14:39:29 <b_jonas> not everyone is on irc every day, there are new people who won't have heard of the freenode drama for years
14:42:50 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83320&oldid=83318 * Cypooos * (+2) Correcting mistakes
14:43:37 <fizzie> The new logs web interface -- https://logs.esolangs.org/ -- doesn't really default to either. I was going to make https://esolangs.org/logs/... URLs to forward to the freenode logs to keep old permalinks working, but the plain /logs/ path with no file specified I could point arbitrarily.
14:43:49 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83321&oldid=83320 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) /* Resources */ Fix link
14:43:50 <fizzie> This would also be probably the best chance to change the permalink syntax not require anchor names to be case-sensitive, if we want to. IIRC, the spec says they *are* case-sensitive, but (pre-Edge?) IE didn't treat them as such, so `#la` was the same as `#lA`. But maybe that's no longer so relevant.
14:44:15 <fizzie> Base 62 is a little more compact than base 36 would be.
14:47:54 <nakilon> now write(N,top): rotate(N), rotate(N+1), swap, pop, rotate(N) -- 5 operations too
14:48:04 <nakilon> and N should be static in both cases
14:48:10 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83322&oldid=83315 * Aonodensetsu * (+291)
14:48:20 <nakilon> (that's the limitation I don't like)
14:48:40 <b_jonas> oh, https://logs.esolangs.org/ is the new interface? ok
14:48:56 <nakilon> wait, odd number of rotations, heh, missed something
14:49:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: pre-edge IE is dying out though, isn't it?
14:50:02 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83323&oldid=83321 * Cypooos * (+0) Correcting some mistakes
14:50:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: there doesn't seem to be an easy link from https://esolangs.org/logs/all.html back to the top or to the other channel's logs
14:51:46 <fizzie> Re pre-Edge IE, probably. I feel like oerjan's the only one who ever noticed those links didn't work on some browser.
14:53:15 <int-e> nakilon: write is only 3 steps, rotate(N+1), pop, rotate(N-1)
14:53:17 <fizzie> I've not made any changes to the version running at /logs/ so it won't know the other channel exists. As for getting back to the top, yeah; though logs/ is the same page as logs/YYYY.html of the current year, so clicking on the year gives you the same view.
14:53:52 <fizzie> In the new thing, I can do some changes to integrate them a little better. Haven't yet, though.
14:55:53 <fizzie> What I *have* changed so far is to put the top announcement and the bottom about text into the configuration file rather than a `constexpr char[]` variable, so I can change them without recompiling. ;)
14:56:16 <fizzie> (And of course the ability to serve from more than one root.)
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15:05:38 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83324&oldid=83322 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* How do you know this is Turing-complete? */
15:06:02 <nakilon> so the bad thing is that N has too be static or you'll lose it immediately on the first rotate, so I'm now thinking about another operation instead -- swap(N) that swaps the top element with the Nth one
15:06:57 <nakilon> the write(N) then is trivial, but read(N) is complex and as far as I can imagine relies on write(N)
15:11:32 <nakilon> so assuming the stack is [... 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, X, N] to put the X to Nth position under it would be the: swapn, pop
15:12:22 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83325&oldid=83324 * Aonodensetsu * (+59)
15:12:40 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83326&oldid=83325 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* How do you know this is Turing-complete? (WIP as apparently it needs to be the EXTENDED conjecture) */
15:14:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: also that explains why someone mentioned wikia and their tactic of "no, you can't edit the nethack.wikia.org front page to say that https://nethackwiki.com/ is a more up to date more actively maintained fork of the wiki
15:14:55 <b_jonas> hey, it looks like https://nethack.wikia.org/ is deleted! what happened?
15:16:06 <b_jonas> I mean it would actually started to have become useful right now, when a lot of nostalgic folks might think that Nethack 3.4.3 is the one true canonical version and perhaps not every page on the wiki should be updated to reflect the 3.6 branch changes because now it's harder to find reliable info about 3.4.3
15:16:33 <b_jonas> though perhaps that nostalgic target audience wouldn't go to wikia anyway
15:18:25 <Taneb> I should actually learn to play NetHack one day
15:18:46 <Taneb> I've tried a few times but I've not been patient enough to do any well at it
15:19:06 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83327&oldid=83326 * Aonodensetsu * (-140)
15:20:08 <b_jonas> Taneb: there were some IRC channels on freenode that could help you in that
15:20:44 <Taneb> b_jonas: sadly I am no longer on Freenode
15:20:56 <Taneb> Perhaps there may be some IRC channels elsewhere soon
15:21:22 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, and I don't know where those IRC chnanels are right now, and they might not know yet too
15:21:46 <b_jonas> but there will probably still be an IRC presence in the long term
15:21:48 <Taneb> There's a note at the top of https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Freenode that may provide a hint
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15:24:33 <Taneb> I think I'll give NetHack another go this evening
15:25:17 <fizzie> I've been hanging around on the #nethack channel (formerly on freenode, now here), but I don't know if there's usually that much learning going on in there.
15:25:26 <fizzie> Which isn't to say you wouldn't get answers if you asked a question.
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15:26:20 <fizzie> I use it mostly to watch Rodney's announcements of games on NAO every now and then, because sometimes the deaths can be quite amusing.
15:27:06 <nakilon> now if it's [... 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, N] to read the Nth position under it would be: dup, dup, dup, 2, +, swapn, dup, 3, swapn, swap, 1, +, swapn, pop
15:27:07 <fizzie> "killed by a wolf, while taking off clothes" and so on.
15:27:37 <nakilon> lol, 14 operations to for random write with this swapn operator
15:27:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: some of it has moved to other channels... let me look up the name
15:28:21 <b_jonas> also some of the learning is concentrated in the two months with big nethack competitions
15:29:01 <nakilon> why nethack if there is dcss
15:29:54 <b_jonas> nakilon: I'd recommend adding a primitive that pops an index, then swaps the top of stack with an element deep in the stack with that index. that's probably the easiest and simplest thing you can add that guarantees to solve both the random access problem and the problem that you don't have extra registers and can't easily permute the top of stack
15:30:11 <fizzie> If your name is Jack, and one of your hobbies is listening to music, and you usually do it with headphones, would you consider "Headphone Jack" as a nickname? These are the kind of things I think about when plugging in headphones for a meeting.
15:30:31 <fizzie> "Who's that? Oh, that's Headphone Jack."
15:30:44 <nakilon> b_jonas that's exactly the swapn I was using just now
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15:31:30 <nakilon> and it resulted in 2 operations for random write and somehow the whole 14 for random read
15:32:54 <b_jonas> nakilon: if you want to make the code shorter, I'd just add a handful of named registers with load and store instructions
15:33:23 <b_jonas> though you may also have a point about no easy way to write numbers larger than 9 or 15 or whatever it is
15:33:31 <b_jonas> if that turns out to be a problem, add an instruction for that
15:33:52 <nakilon> adding registers has the problem that there is no defined amount of how many registers you need
15:33:59 <b_jonas> or, I dunno, why do I care about rasel anyway? I don't have any reason
15:34:10 <nakilon> adding two will solve "half" of problems, then you'll need 3 for another 1/4, etc,
15:34:22 <b_jonas> nakilon: seven registers. it's seven.
15:34:37 <b_jonas> so 14 instructions for them
15:45:44 <nakilon> I think that'll be it; deprecating random read 'a', introducing random top-swap 's'; with static N it would be not 14 operations but just a few: 0, N, swapn, dup, N+1, swapn, pop
15:49:01 <nakilon> then the fibonacci will no longer be memory-leaking
15:51:53 <nakilon> I could even then deprecate '\' in favor of '0s'
15:52:40 <nakilon> or just redefine the '\' to also always pop a N
15:58:36 <b_jonas> hehe "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_(sports)#Ice_hockey" "The NHL no longer permits the use of 0 or 00 as the League's database cannot list players with such numbers"
15:59:43 <nakilon> b_jonas why care -- because its specification is shorter than befunge while more full, and it's installable with one command )
16:06:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: you really should add a link from to the other channel, it would be a helpful way to advertise the move to people
16:07:24 <b_jonas> especially since the policies on the old network might cause a problem with the bridge: you probably have to advertise that there's a bridge to a public place the same as you advertise that you have a public log, but you might not be able to do that without advertising the move
16:11:31 <fizzie> Yeah. Well, I hope I'll get the stalker/lurker/stream mode fixed in a day or two, at which point I'll have the previous single-channel URL redirect to the new multi-channel one, and can also add some links to the latter.
16:14:47 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83328&oldid=83232 * Oshaboy * (+91) Added Categories
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16:37:51 <b_jonas> we'll also have to summon kspalaiologos because they might want to modify their logbot, and I don't even know who makes the tunes.org logs
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16:53:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alpha2 * New user account
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16:56:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83329&oldid=83254 * Alpha2 * (+228)
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17:00:47 <MrAureliusR> It's hard to find an editor that doesn't clobber things
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17:03:12 <fizzie> There's at least one Vim thing to syntax-highlgiht Whitespace, I assume it would also tweak the other settings correctly.
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17:23:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RanibowSprimkle64 * New user account
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17:30:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83330&oldid=83329 * RanibowSprimkle64 * (+305)
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17:55:48 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83331&oldid=83328 * Tux1 * (+83)
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18:00:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tux1 * uploaded "[[File:4bod example.png]]": An example of a program written for the 4BOD fantasy console. This program draws a 2x2 square in the middle of the screen.
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18:05:00 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83333&oldid=83331 * Tux1 * (+32) added image
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18:11:18 <nakilon> so what's the policy about channel squatting? I wanna squat a company channel that is big enough on freenode but they are just idling and not coming here yet
18:14:39 <int-e> For now I don't think there's any problem unless another claim for the same channel comes along. In the medium term, this whole #/## business will probably need sorting out :/
18:14:55 <nakilon> ah ok, "... a channel belonging to a project you are _authorized to represent_", nvm then
18:15:23 <fizzie> int-e: Two sigils and three separate namespaces is kind of an odd combination. :)
18:16:21 <int-e> Let's see the linux developers (linux project) get into a fight with the linux users (community) over #linux
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18:16:31 <fungot> int-e: let me try to be brief. that being so, i am very surprised to see the light.
18:16:40 <int-e> that was surprisingly brief
18:16:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
18:17:21 <nakilon> the channel I want is #gcloud -- it's the same dead as their thousands users large Slack team
18:18:26 <b_jonas> nakilon: also it has to be on topic, which basically means related to a free software project
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18:18:57 <nakilon> their SDK are free software I guess
18:19:10 <fizzie> Also "projects/companies of general interest to our user base", which might cover technologies like that.
18:19:19 <b_jonas> int-e: no way. linux developers don't use IRC. they communicate only by emailed formatted patches.
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18:19:25 <esolangs> [[User:RanibowSprimkle64]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83334 * RanibowSprimkle64 * (+792) Created page with "This is the description of my first programming language, if it isn't formatted well or more information is needed, let me know, I don't know how to forum at all, really... L..."
18:19:59 <int-e> b_jonas: there goes my entertainment for the evening
18:21:38 <nakilon> we can generate a fake mailing list website from this channel log
18:21:58 <nakilon> using nickname mentions to follow the threads, etc.
18:22:42 <nakilon> and every message will become a cached page in webarchive
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18:31:50 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83335&oldid=83333 * Tux1 * (+38)
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18:48:11 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83336&oldid=83323 * Cypooos * (+13) Correcting generality difference between the mathematical definition and the implementation
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19:22:47 <esolangs> <zzo38> Are there alternatives to Language Server Protocol?
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19:34:17 <esolangs> <fizzie> I feel like clangd predated LSP and had a (C-specific) protocol of its own in the past, but (a) I may be wrong about that, and (b) in any case it no longer does.
19:34:59 <esolangs> <fizzie> Google's Kythe project has a protocol that I think is in somewhat in the same space, but not quite the same thing.
19:35:18 <esolangs> <fizzie> Those are the only two things that come to mind; I don't know of anything that'd have the same goals as LSP.
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20:09:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Algj * New user account
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21:03:45 <esolangs> [[Capuirequiem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83337&oldid=65570 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+373) Amended some orthographic mistakes and reformulated a few parts.
21:04:38 <esolangs> [[User:Hyperdawg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83338&oldid=83236 * Hyperdawg * (+46)
21:10:18 <esolangs> <zzo38> Also, I don't know if LSP has the way to specify the character encoding of the source file; I could not find any when looking at the documentation.
21:12:34 <cd> it may assume UTF-9
21:12:43 <cd> which makes sense 99.99% of the time tbf
21:15:48 <esolangs> <zzo38> Approximately, yes, but sometimes it is different, and this may be specified inside of the file itself. (Although ASCII is very common, and UTF-8 is a superset of ASCII, so this will usually work both for ASCII and for UTF-8. It is also necessary to ensure that the byte order mark is omitted if the program doesn't expect it)
21:16:09 <b_jonas> no no, it's always the national characterset of the region where the game is commercially sold, the only one that's in the character ROM of the console where it's played. how could it be anything else? then you'd need some sort of translation layer from the text to what you can actually display.
21:20:08 <esolangs> <zzo38> Sometimes it may be. However, in those cases, I would expect hopefully some way to detect it, either in the file itself or in something external. (For text files, this may be either a comment or some directive; for binary files the region code might be specified in the header, perhaps, if executing it depends on the region code. For NES/Famicom there is no console character ROM, but for other computers it may be.)
21:22:29 <b_jonas> detect? no, you don't detect it. if you put it into the console in the wrong region, some characters will show up as nonsense, which doesn't matter because the player couldn't read foreign language anyway. at worst some of the corner line drawing characters would show up silly too. and if it's a very different region, it won't even work because of NTSC versus PAL or different shape of the cartridge
21:23:12 <esolangs> <zzo38> (NES/Famicom does have region coding, but for emulation it is generally sufficient to distinguish between NTSC and PAL. For actual cartridges, the cartridge itself is physically different between NES and Famicom; the NES cartridge doesn't have expansion audio.)
21:26:38 <b_jonas> and the japanese NES has some games on floppy instead of a cart, so that's a third incompatible format, even if they're both NTSC
21:27:03 <esolangs> <zzo38> However, NES/Famicom doesn't have any ROM inside the console, so the character encoding is not a problem here.
21:29:07 <b_jonas> yes, it worked the same way then as now: they make the console cheapest as possible, even if that means they have to duplicate character ROM, RAM expansion, and sometimes even more stuff in each cartridge
21:29:22 <b_jonas> back then they actually made the hardware cheap
21:29:40 <b_jonas> now they're just selling it cheap and selling the games expensive, it's not that the games come on carts with expensive extra hardware
21:30:14 <esolangs> <zzo38> Yes, there is the Famicom Disk System. However, that uses a special cartridge. (I have never seen any emulator though that allows you to load multiple BIOS images and to load another disk image file without resetting)
21:31:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: surely emulators on home PC consoles like the Commodore 64, which have built-in ROM and expansion cards, support that
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21:33:15 <esolangs> <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but I mean NES/Famicom emulators specifically
21:34:05 <b_jonas> do they emulate crazy cartridge swapping realtime speedruns, or speedruns where people put their console on a hot plate or cause deliberate hardware errors in other ways? :-)
21:34:18 <b_jonas> I mean the NES probably isn't the most common console for that
21:35:18 <esolangs> <zzo38> Some stuff in the cartridge can also be used to customize the hardware for different games, which is sometimes helpful. The small amount of RAM in the console is not usually an advantage, although I have designed a mapper to take advantage of the RAM mirroring in order to improve bankswitching speed; this is a kind of simpler way than implementing read-back in the cartridge
21:37:56 <esolangs> <zzo38> (For example, if $1000-$1FFF, $3000-$3FFF, $5000-$5FFF, and $7000-$7FFF are all mapped to the bank switching register, then you can write to $1050 and it bankswitches, later write to $1051 for another bank, and later, read $1050 to switch the bank back to the first one (no need to write). This requires less logic in the cartridge, too.)
21:40:09 <esolangs> <zzo38> (You can also read/write the same memory at $0050 and $0051, without causing the bank switching. In this case, you might, for example, save the data for switching the bank later, or read it back without switching.)
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22:35:43 <fizzie> A hopefully quick blip in the bot situation.
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22:41:26 <fizzie> It's quite a house of cards.
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23:31:23 <esolangs> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83339&oldid=74588 * Unlimiter * (-17)
23:35:44 <esolangs> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83340&oldid=83339 * Unlimiter * (+3) /* In-depth */
23:36:49 <esolangs> [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83341&oldid=83340 * Unlimiter * (+1) /* Countdown */
23:38:45 <esolangs> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83342&oldid=83341 * Unlimiter * (-77)
00:00:26 <fizzie> And one more time, because the most recent multi-network refactoring broke the Prometheus metrics due to a lack of labels.
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00:16:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jdonszelmann * New user account
00:20:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83343&oldid=83330 * Jdonszelmann * (+246) /* Introductions */
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00:41:44 <esolangs> [[Whopper]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83344&oldid=83235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Commands */ Lt get
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04:53:13 <int-e> wow, freenode #esoteric is smaller than this channel right now
04:54:06 <HackEso> advertisement:Advertisement starts: have you heard about this hip and froopy 'net place called #esoteric? It is on freenode. Brought to you by The Board of Timeskewed Advertiesements. \ e:e is a freenode admin. e is not known to be an Agora player. \ freenode:The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The Chännel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago?
05:08:40 <HackEso> Libera is the land of the future. Maybe.
05:09:33 <int-e> `slwd libnera//s/[^ ]*$/Probably./
05:09:39 <int-e> `slwd libera//s/[^ ]*$/Probably./
05:09:43 <HackEso> libera//Libera is the land of the future. Probably.
05:26:29 <esolangs> <zzo38> I don't (yet) know what should be the syntax for meta-CSS.
05:35:55 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83345&oldid=83327 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* MATH variable input order explanation */
05:36:10 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83346&oldid=83345 * Aonodensetsu * (-8) /* Commands */
05:52:23 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83347&oldid=83346 * Aonodensetsu * (-47) /* Quirks */
05:58:37 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83348&oldid=83347 * Aonodensetsu * (+26) /* Naming of functions */
05:59:00 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83349&oldid=83348 * Aonodensetsu * (+6) /* Naming of functions */
06:00:09 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83350&oldid=83349 * Aonodensetsu * (+2) /* Conditional jumps? */
06:02:34 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83351&oldid=83350 * Aonodensetsu * (+178) /* What can we do with this? */
06:04:40 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83352&oldid=83351 * Aonodensetsu * (+10) /* Conditional jumps? */
06:06:16 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83353&oldid=83352 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* MATH variable input order explanation */
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06:20:03 <salpynx> `` for k in Church Turing turning pi circle esoteric monad group future logic ; do ? $k|cut -f1,2,$((${#k}*3/2)) -d' ' ;done
06:20:26 <HackEso> Church invented Turing \ Turing is Tur. \ Turning is because \ pi is a \ A circle \ This channel esoterica, \ Monads are category \ Groups are property \ We know \ Logic is true
06:44:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cythan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83354 * Ais523 * (+677) I don't think this is TC
06:46:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[DotSnap]]": Author request: blanked by author
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06:51:08 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83355&oldid=83353 * Aonodensetsu * (+93) /* Quirks */
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06:53:26 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83359&oldid=83358 * Aonodensetsu * (+9) /* Quirks */
06:55:53 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83360&oldid=83359 * Aonodensetsu * (+140) /* Quirks */
06:56:56 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83361&oldid=83360 * Aonodensetsu * (+55) /* What can we do with this? */
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07:12:03 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83362&oldid=83361 * Aonodensetsu * (+392) /* Commands */
07:12:36 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83363&oldid=83362 * Aonodensetsu * (-62) /* Commands extended */
07:12:52 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83364&oldid=83363 * Aonodensetsu * (+26) /* Commands extended */
07:13:03 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83365&oldid=83364 * Aonodensetsu * (-26) /* Commands extended */
07:19:33 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83366&oldid=83365 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* Commands extended */
07:19:45 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83367&oldid=83366 * Aonodensetsu * (-3) /* Extended commands */
07:20:05 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83368&oldid=83367 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* Extended commands */
07:24:07 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83369&oldid=83368 * Aonodensetsu * (+72) /* Manual */
07:24:21 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83370&oldid=83369 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* Extended manual */
07:24:48 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83371&oldid=83370 * Aonodensetsu * (-2) /* Extended commands */
07:26:05 <nakilon> 42 runs, 69 assertions, 0 failures, 0 errors, 0 skips
07:27:18 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83372&oldid=83371 * Aonodensetsu * (+432) /* Extended manual */
07:27:28 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83373&oldid=83372 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* GLOBALW [] */
07:28:50 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83374&oldid=83373 * Aonodensetsu * (-123) /* Extended manual */
07:29:08 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83375&oldid=83374 * Aonodensetsu * (+8) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */
07:29:18 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83376&oldid=83375 * Aonodensetsu * (-12) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */
07:30:24 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83377&oldid=83376 * Aonodensetsu * (+146) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */
07:30:44 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83378&oldid=83377 * Aonodensetsu * (+4) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */
07:31:00 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83379&oldid=83378 * Aonodensetsu * (-2) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */
07:32:28 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83380&oldid=83379 * Aonodensetsu * (+122) /* Extended manual */
07:41:15 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83381&oldid=83380 * Aonodensetsu * (+232) /* Extended commands */
07:43:59 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83382&oldid=83381 * Aonodensetsu * (-40) /* Extended commands */
07:53:16 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83383&oldid=83335 * Oshaboy * (+201) /* Specifications */
07:53:31 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83384&oldid=83383 * Oshaboy * (+21) /* Specifications */
07:54:09 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83385&oldid=83384 * Oshaboy * (+66) /* Examples */
08:03:53 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83386&oldid=83382 * Aonodensetsu * (+43) /* Extended commands */
08:04:16 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83387&oldid=83386 * Aonodensetsu * (-43) /* Extended commands */
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08:14:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Clockwise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83388&oldid=83004 * Bangyen * (+4) /* Cat Program */
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08:19:52 <nakilon> now \rasel is v1, `rasel will remain v0
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08:24:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:3x]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83389 * Bangyen * (+691) Created page with "== Multiplication == I'm pretty sure the multiplication program is incorrect. Below is the corrected version: <pre> ??#333x#v333x^#3#v3333x3x3333x3x3^x(3#v3333x3x3333x3x3^x#33..."
08:26:09 <nakilon> is there any recommended list of infobox proglang items?
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08:27:16 <nakilon> or how to see its internals, I see that it replaces "year" with "Appeared at", etc., so there is its code somewhere that I would like to look at
08:27:19 <esolangs> [[3x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83390&oldid=81228 * Bangyen * (+102)
08:27:39 <esolangs> [[3x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83391&oldid=83390 * Bangyen * (-2)
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08:28:28 <nakilon> ok found it https://esolangs.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_proglang
08:29:19 <esolangs> [[3x]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83392&oldid=83391 * Bangyen * (+46)
08:31:14 <nakilon> would be nice to also have a field "last version year"
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08:46:51 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83393&oldid=83387 * Aonodensetsu * (-10) /* Extended commands */
08:47:29 <nakilon> btw, the Libera channel can be announced in /r/esolangs
08:53:19 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83394&oldid=83247 * Nakilon * (+76) typesys, memsys; updated to RASEL v1.0.0
08:59:37 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83395&oldid=83393 * Aonodensetsu * (-40) /* Extended commands */
09:03:46 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83396&oldid=83394 * Nakilon * (+0) /* Instructions */ typo
09:05:15 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83397&oldid=83395 * Aonodensetsu * (+429) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */
09:08:30 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83398&oldid=83397 * Aonodensetsu * (+196) /* CALL */
09:09:51 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83399&oldid=83398 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* CALL */
09:10:10 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83400&oldid=83399 * Aonodensetsu * (+120) /* Quirks */
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09:18:55 <fizzie> Re "last version year", while it would be nice to *have* one, and I'm not arguing against one, it feels like one of those things that would get easily stale. Also a little ambiguous for something with multiple implementations.
09:19:15 <fizzie> Though it's probably true that most languages stop getting developed the same year the articles about them get written, and don't have more than one (or zero) implementations, so it'd still be mostly correct.
09:20:05 <nakilon> "ambiguous for something with multiple implementations" -- ttrue
09:20:50 <nakilon> but let it be a year of specification, not implementation
09:26:26 <nakilon> interesting stats https://projecteuler.net/languages
09:27:31 <nakilon> there are 4 guys who classified themselves as befungers https://projecteuler.net/language=Befunge though it's not necessary they mostly used it to solve
09:28:01 <fizzie> I get redirected to the /about page from those links. (Maybe it needs sign-in.)
09:29:34 <fizzie> (Looking at ~/src/attic/euler, looks like I never did any of them in Befunge, I just did the first 100 in Python and forgot about it.)
09:33:16 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/RoMACey.png
09:33:52 <Taneb> I should get back into solving them in Agda
09:34:09 <Taneb> Sadly that's not a listed language category... I wonder if there's a way to request it?
09:35:18 <nakilon> my projecteuler folder is empty _OO
09:43:17 <nakilon> oh I guess they had some database problem few years ago; and probably this is why they say on Problem 1: "Completed a long, long time ago." and the whole list looks like this: https://dpaste.org/ReMy/slim
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12:35:21 <nakilon> so since RASEL does not allow program space modification unlike Befunge it becomes possible to estimate all the program flows
12:36:15 <nakilon> only "j" with no leading static value means the unpredictable branching
12:37:34 <nakilon> still even with this branching it's possible to know all the possible paths through the program space and makes some things possible -- I imagine the automatic one-lining
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12:40:34 <nakilon> oh and "\" is unpredictable now too (
12:41:36 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83401&oldid=83385 * Oshaboy * (-68) I forgot I did cls(0110)
12:51:57 <velik> available commands: rasel; usage help: \help <cmd>
12:57:31 <nakilon> there should be a term "language encoding" that would mean all those brainfucks that are just using another alphabet and sometimes a word instead of a char
12:58:08 <nakilon> the language encoding isn't much a language
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13:03:18 <b_jonas> \rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj
13:03:22 <velik> output: "Hello, World!", exit code: 0
13:04:53 <b_jonas> nakilon: how is this supposed to work?
13:06:39 <b_jonas> does it only interpret hello world executables?
13:08:15 <nakilon> yeah you missed the @ most of the times
13:08:57 <b_jonas> ok, so why doesn't \rasel 5.0@ work?
13:09:07 <nakilon> since the timeout is 60s you basically just DDOSed it to the 16:06:34 <velik> thread error: #<Net::HTTPTooManyRequests 429 Too Many Requests readbody=true> )
13:09:32 <b_jonas> thet empty program is an infinite loop in rasel?
13:09:53 <nakilon> because I set the limit to 1 concurrent execution, the later are coming into several minutes long queue and I guess you've killed that queue length too lol
13:10:07 <fizzie> On the wiki, we do make the distinction between https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_derivatives and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_equivalents where the latter is close to your "language encoding".
13:10:17 <nakilon> the empty program might not match the bot regex and so won't be executed
13:10:17 <fizzie> "This category is for languages which are straightforward alternate syntaxes/encodings for brainfuck, with or without its I/O facilites. Languages which have semantics that differ from brainfuck's, even in small ways, do not belong in this category."
13:10:36 <fizzie> (There's probably some gray area there, though.)
13:10:45 <velik> output: "5 ", exit code: 0
13:11:56 <nakilon> damn I guess the queue size in 1 actually
13:12:32 <b_jonas> but why doesn't the interpreter just terminate or error out when the program counter runs out the boundary?
13:14:10 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/N4BRfja.png I guess this should allow 4 infinite programs per 30 sec
13:14:33 <nakilon> takes up to 2 minutes to update
13:14:44 <b_jonas> nakilon: also how do you give a multiline program to this bot?
13:15:38 <b_jonas> "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
13:15:59 <b_jonas> four infinite loops per 30 seconds, that's so fast!
13:16:01 <nakilon> b_jonas it's currently PRIVMSGing these error to me before I'm sure nothing will expose if I set it to tell errors right to the channel
13:16:51 <velik> output: "F", exit code: 0
13:17:04 <nakilon> no multiline for now -- that's why I'm thinking about making the automatic one-lining translator
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13:18:33 <nakilon> theoretically I could make the multiline in the similar way I made the stind
13:19:42 <velik> \rasel <RASEL code>; \rasel -stdin <any char><stdin><same char><RASEL code>; timelimit=60s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
13:20:06 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esolangs",":
13:20:06 <lambdabot> lambdabot: @echo ho"]} target:#esolangs rest:"ho"
13:21:14 <velik> remote execution commands loaded: ["rasel"]
13:21:20 <velik> \rasel <RASEL code>; \rasel -stdin <any char><stdin><same char><RASEL code>; don't forget the '@' instruction or it will timeout; timelimit=30s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
13:21:47 <velik> output: "E", exit code: 0
13:22:39 <b_jonas> yeah, this probably won't cause a botloop
13:23:56 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I know what I should test
13:24:44 <nakilon> I added 500 chars limit today but didn't test it though
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13:28:46 <nakilon> also the Ruby's String#inspect is sanitizing funny char values enough to be nicely printed in terminal so I assume it would be enough sanitizing for IRC too
13:29:01 <b_jonas> \rasel 0"~dlrow ,olleh" :,"~"-0D-1\?j 0@
13:29:48 <b_jonas> \rasel 0"~dlrow ,olleh" :,"}"-0D-1\?j 0@
13:29:52 <velik> output: "hello, world~", exit code: 0
13:30:47 <b_jonas> \rasel 0"~egassem motsuc" :,"}"-0D-1\?j 0@
13:30:51 <velik> output: "custom message~", exit code: 0
13:31:08 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1235.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
13:31:44 <b_jonas> \rasel 0"~enil rehtona: sgnalose# GSMVIRP"A"enil eno" :,"}"-0D-1\?j 0@
13:31:45 <velik> output: "one line\nPRIVMSG #esolangs :another line~", exit code: 0
13:31:53 <b_jonas> \rasel 0"~enil rehtona: sgnalose# GSMVIRP"D"enil eno" :,"}"-0D-1\?j 0@
13:31:54 <velik> output: "one line\rPRIVMSG #esolangs :another line~", exit code: 0
13:32:01 <b_jonas> \rasel 0"~enil rehtona: sgnalose# GSMVIRP"0"enil eno" :,"}"-0D-1\?j 0@
13:32:03 <velik> output: "one line\x00PRIVMSG #esolangs :another line~", exit code: 0
13:33:18 <velik> output: "1024 :3 ", exit code: 0
13:33:26 <velik> output: "", exit code: 255
13:33:38 <velik> output: "", exit code: 255
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13:35:54 <b_jonas> \rasel G1A//01--, G1C//02--, "r", 0@
13:35:55 <velik> output: "\xA1\xC2r", exit code: 0
13:36:10 <nakilon> actually there is really no protection against \x00 in my IRC bot library
13:36:48 <b_jonas> that's harder to abuse on IRC than lf and cr
13:39:03 <nakilon> but oh, I see, the String#inspect made that "one line\x00PRIVMSG" escape
13:40:17 <nakilon> it's not in IRC bot but in the Function: https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/5125650327d950e145c664dcdb2043192e30932a/examples/google_cloud_function/app.rb#L10
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14:09:14 <nakilon> this is awful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
14:11:03 <nakilon> what's the point to use "and" and "or" then if there is already a comma there, just a cluttering
14:14:42 <nakilon> github's style is funny https://github.com/github/explore/blob/main/docs/styleguide.md -- "Avoid using "users" in favor of developers" -- there are no users now, only developers ..D
14:23:13 <b_jonas> oh yeah, you said something about size
14:26:12 <velik> output: "35 ", exit code: 0
14:26:43 <b_jonas> \rasel Z 1-:.81\?j$0C-j 0@
14:26:44 <velik> output: "34 0 ", exit code: 0
14:27:25 <b_jonas> \rasel Z 1-::.81\?j$0C-j 0@
14:27:26 <velik> output: "34 34 0 ", exit code: 0
14:27:43 <b_jonas> \rasel Z 1-::.81\?j$0E-j 0@
14:27:44 <velik> output: "34 -34 ", exit code: 0
14:28:11 <b_jonas> \rasel Z 1-::.81\?j$0F-j 0@
14:28:12 <velik> output: "34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ", exit code: 0
14:28:28 <b_jonas> \rasel Z14// 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:28:29 <velik> output: "139 138 137 136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129 128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 1
14:28:35 <b_jonas> \rasel W18// 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:28:42 <b_jonas> \rasel W16// 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:28:52 <b_jonas> \rasel W15// 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:28:58 <b_jonas> \rasel W14// 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:29:00 <velik> output: "127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ", exit code: 0
14:29:09 <b_jonas> \rasel W14//0G-- 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:29:16 <b_jonas> \rasel W14//0D-- 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:29:17 <velik> output: "140 139 138 137 136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129 128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12
14:29:22 <b_jonas> \rasel W14//0E-- 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:29:36 <b_jonas> \rasel "groot".W14//0D-- 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:29:43 <b_jonas> \rasel W14//0D-- 1-::.81\?j$0H-j 0@
14:29:44 <velik> output: "140 139 138 137 136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129 128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12
14:29:51 <b_jonas> so this is the maximum that we can output
14:30:31 <nakilon> https://github.com/Nakilon/nakiircbot/blob/32633794d50407ed981d15b7ec1f4a8b2d2923fa/lib/nakiircbot.rb#L51
14:30:42 <b_jonas> not easy to abuse, but luckily we have other bots on the channel that are easier to abuse and also have a more convenient (though still somewhat esoteric) interface
14:31:02 <nakilon> the above velik's message is 437 chars long, and the rest 63 are gone for IRC protocol I guess
14:31:26 <nakilon> maybe I should limit the function to 400 chars output to not miss the end
14:31:44 <nakilon> I mean... you'll miss it anyway but at least you'll see the exit code
14:34:37 <nakilon> "luckily we have bots to abuse" (c) b_jonas
14:58:30 <nakilon> wtf "Unless you're using a free third-party client which invokes GitHub's API, using some major features of GitHub requires nonfree JavaScript, which makes it unsuitable for free software hosting."
14:59:04 <nakilon> I guess he owns https://github.com/esolangs but abandoned the Github for the above "reason"
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15:23:03 <fizzie> The overhead isn't always terribly easy to calculate, because it depends on things like your hostname as seen by others (cloaked), and sometimes even whether they have that identify-msg capability on.
15:23:55 <fizzie> (Actually, how does the standard 512-byte payload-plus-crlf length limit work with IRCv3 message tags? Are they just exempt from the limit or what?)
15:24:15 <fizzie> Oh, I guess: "The size limit for message tags is 8191 bytes, including the leading '@' (0x40) and trailing space ' ' (0x20) characters. The size limit for the rest of the message remains unchanged at 512 bytes."
15:26:07 <fizzie> (With half allocated for the client to use and the other half for server-added tags, so that your message doesn't go over the limit no matter what the server adds to it.)
15:26:34 <cd> I wish the IRC message limit was more consistent and less historically limited
15:26:59 <cd> But increasing it would probably break many clients
15:30:14 <nakilon> < @badge-info=subscriber/4;badges=subscriber/3,bits/1000;color=;display-name=volker027;emotes=;flags=;id=b0830d66-7cd5-4f03-b330-cd565a0710c9;mod=0;room-id=96726033;subscriber=1;tmi-sent-ts=1621460923658;turbo=0;user-id=478416199;user-type= :volker027!volker027@volker027.tmi.twitch.tv PRIVMSG #twigglesoft :Hi Twiggle and Chat 😀
15:30:40 <nakilon> didn't try to enable them here yet
15:32:47 <immibis> if you are a free software purist you can't even use github because the server isn't free
15:33:23 <cd> nor most of the Internet
15:33:32 <cd> free software purism is very silly :I
15:34:52 <nakilon> I failed to understand what does the "nonfree Javascript" mean
15:35:10 <cd> “It’s not GPL as such bad”
15:35:46 <cd> People like that tend to treat not-GPL as blasphemy
15:35:53 <nakilon> V8 is BSD, ye, such a difference...
15:36:13 <nakilon> like if someone makes him pay for Chrome
15:37:08 <cd> In the context of games it’s even worse, as often times there what people /really/ mean by free is “I can build myself a copy so I don’t have to pay shit.”
15:38:05 <myname> nonfree javascript is js that you aren't allowed to copy and modify among other things
15:38:31 <myname> sure, you _can_ copy every script that is run in your browser, but you can also copy every program that is run on your cpu
15:38:46 <nakilon> I doubt he ever needed to copy or modify it
15:39:22 <nakilon> especially to use a Github
15:39:29 <myname> sure, most people don't need to modify the linux kernel
15:39:39 <myname> that does not mean people don't like it being free
15:40:09 <nakilon> people care about wrong things
15:40:23 <myname> they do, but freedom is not one of them
15:41:09 <Taneb> All software is free software if you're willing enough to break the law
15:41:31 <Taneb> (for legal reasons I do not encourage breaking the law)
15:41:47 <nakilon> I use Windows without paying and without breaking the law ..\
15:42:29 <Taneb> nakilon: different definition of "free" I think
15:42:31 <nakilon> (I mean, until I cracked it)
15:43:17 <nakilon> you are free to use it for personal entertainment, and it was free to download from microsoft.com but those links are dying for some reason
15:43:21 <myname> no need to crack windows, you can just deactivate the license check with standard tools
15:44:02 <nakilon> the "you are not activated" in the corner is exactly what annoys
15:44:25 <nakilon> people laugh at your screenshots
15:44:30 <myname> i'm not sure if this stays, i haven't touched a private windows in years
15:44:50 <myname> imagine making screenshots of your desktop to share
15:45:47 <nakilon> don't everybody on linux do that?
15:45:57 <nakilon> I saw even websites where they have galleries of them
15:46:13 <myname> a screenshot of my system would just be whatever applications are open
15:46:14 <nakilon> like a part of their forum
15:46:51 <nakilon> do you have a waifu as a background of your terminal?
15:47:16 <myname> https://opensource.com/sites/default/files/uploads/advent-herbsluftwm.png actual screenshot of what my system looks like
15:47:56 <nakilon> damn I should fork ubuntu to make that "your system is inactivated" in the corner
15:48:10 <nakilon> there is Russian meme "Bolgen OS"
15:49:32 <nakilon> sometimes on TV journalists love to make news about "genious kids from deep of Siberia" and one was a local prodigy who even "made his own OS that his school is now trying to adopt"
15:50:00 <nakilon> and it was Bolgen OS -- an Ubuntu with his custom boot screen logo
15:50:48 <myname> we had something similar, some people claimed making a revolutionary new os that runs windows as well as linux applications
15:51:00 <myname> it was basically some mainstream linux distri with wine
15:51:09 <cd> windows 12!
15:55:21 <myname> maik mixdorf was the dude
15:57:29 <Sgeo> Windows Sandbox seems to be unactivated. It's kind o annoying
15:58:10 <myname> they claimed to write 52 million LOCs with a team of 3 programmers :D
15:59:46 <Taneb> myname: lots of copy paste, or lots of IDE code generation I wonder
16:00:28 <Taneb> That's almost 16k lines per person per day
16:03:54 <nakilon> our pythonist made a 1.2 mln lines long commit
16:05:11 <nakilon> people can have a talent of commiting a lot
16:06:20 <nakilon> and github is full of the /vendor directories and probably even /node-modules or how it's called
16:06:24 <arseniiv> love hyperboloid model even more: when you find the intersection of two distinct hyperbolic lines, their corresponding planes always intersect in a line. If it’s timelike, that means an usual intersection point; if null, that means an ideal point (the lines converge) and if spacelike, the lines diverge; and we can try to say they intersect in an imaginary point (like some imaginary conics stuff sometimes used when solving euclidean conic problems)
16:12:03 <arseniiv> trying to decide should I write a simple SVG rendering of simple hyperbolic geometry things (like to illustrate various kinds of isometries there) and what computational model to use in that case. Hyperboloid coordinates are too stretched out when going far away from the origin, OTOH Poincaré disk is ailed by converse, and these two models seem best in computational ease?..
16:14:23 <arseniiv> hm maybe floating point is good with hyperboloid model. How much precision is lost when doing arccosh(cosh(θ)) and arcsinh(sinh(θ)) asymptotically?..
16:15:09 <nakilon> you might wanna check if Mathematica already can do that
16:15:36 <nakilon> I mean making is simpler to render that stuff
16:16:42 <arseniiv> ah, I used its graphics functions many times, yeah. Though I want to move on to freer software :)
16:16:59 <arseniiv> I generated many cool things with it, though
16:18:21 <arseniiv> like this one https://i.postimg.cc/hcMqY6Xz/mandala3.png
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16:33:45 <arseniiv> about arcsinh(sinh(θ)): when θ is large, it’s just ~ log(exp(θ)) so there’s some amout of precision, though it fluctuates a bit: mantissas of exp(θ) near 1.0 are worse than those near 2.0
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17:15:10 <nakilon> lol "zzo38 is the only esolanger who has an entry in Urban Dictionary."
17:17:04 <nakilon> arseniiv https://www.reddit.com/r/generative/
17:22:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JaydenIrwin * New user account
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17:24:52 <arseniiv> nakilon: oh much thanks!! I value procedural art things though I almost don’t do them myself at all, but still. Hopefully there are many useful ideas to use
17:25:37 <nakilon> arseniiv it's my dream to earn for life by selling drawing made by coding
17:27:05 <arseniiv> one time I used an untrained neural network with a subtle drift of weights to generate sound
17:28:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RubyPiec * New user account
17:28:52 <arseniiv> as expected it didn’t work quite well but still had made interesting sounds sometimes: https://freesound.org/people/arseniiv/packs/22686/ (warning: sometimes very harsh noise)
17:30:02 <arseniiv> what might be interesting is that despite the high sampling rate, it sometimes generated pretty low frequency tones
17:31:45 <arseniiv> so that should have been due to very long prominent cycles between “neurons”. And it I made initial networks more interesting rather than just uniformly random, then we might hear something magical…
17:32:04 <arseniiv> that was generated in Mathematica too
17:32:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83402&oldid=83343 * RubyPiec * (+258) introduction :o
17:33:06 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
17:33:31 <arseniiv> also I should warn they say Freesound’s streaming quality is lower than what you’d get by first downloading and then listening in your favorite player
17:34:55 <arseniiv> that’s not obvious at all from just listening online without an offline downloaded reference, but it seems to be true
17:35:30 <fizzie> int-e: On that note, the way ignore lists and filter expressions are persisted is, I manually list them out in a query before restarting the bot and write them up in a config file. ;)
17:35:53 <fizzie> So if you change something and it reverts, it was probably me forgetting to do that.
17:36:07 <fizzie> (Not that the lists have changed so far.)
17:39:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83403&oldid=83402 * JaydenIrwin * (+192) /* Introductions */
17:44:09 <int-e> hmm, I recognize only 18 people/bots both here and there (but I'm matching by nick except esolangs=esowiki) put differently, there are 47 unique users here, 37 unique users there
17:44:52 <int-e> that seems about right, actually
17:44:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83404&oldid=83274 * JaydenIrwin * (+14) /* S */
17:45:31 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83405 * JaydenIrwin * (+19) Created page with "This is a new lang."
17:48:54 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83406&oldid=83405 * JaydenIrwin * (+189) Started page
17:51:58 <fizzie> I think this might be the only parallel-universe channel I'm on that has a majority here.
17:52:27 <fizzie> Though I parted two that moved officially.
17:53:59 <int-e> #haskell is at 443 vs. 673, ##math at 244 bs. 702, that's the two biggest channels I'm in
17:54:42 <int-e> #haskell has semi-officially moved, but is probably being held back by the lack of matrix bridge
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17:55:29 <int-e> (which is being worked on)
17:56:23 <int-e> ##math is so far from FOSS that I'm actually pleasantly surprised by those numbers
17:58:24 <int-e> what's even more telling in the case of #haskell is that the latest discussion was about how to register a nick when libera requires SASL
17:58:47 <fizzie> #go-nuts is 282 vs. 492 (with an in-review CL to change the website, but I don't know if that's going to go through) and #c/##c is 344 vs. 855, I think those are my biggest ones.
17:59:11 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83407&oldid=83406 * JaydenIrwin * (+863) added symbol table
18:03:41 <nakilon> also consider editing the IRC channel here if anyone cares https://github.com/angrykoala/awesome-esolangs
18:03:48 <arseniiv> <int-e> ##math is so far from FOSS that I'm actually pleasantly surprised by those numbers => maybe the majority of its participants are other FOSS channel regulars? Erm it took me so long to remember “regular” and find it in a dictionary…
18:04:28 <arseniiv> so they hopped in a natural manner, not because of just ##math only
18:06:22 <nakilon> "might be the only parallel-universe channel I'm on that has a majority here." -- yeah, 328 / 76 for #ruby
18:06:37 <nakilon> I think the bridge is doing it
18:07:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * JaydenIrwin * uploaded "[[File:SF Code on Mac.png]]"
18:08:46 <fizzie> I think fungot did it.
18:08:46 <fungot> fizzie: the texts parliament has voted for the fnord should be facilitated in claiming discretionary concessions available to pensioners from the state in the recitals, as parliament had already issued a global pronouncement on that second phase in november 1996 and 24 february 1997, the top priority of the intergovernmental conference.
18:08:59 <nakilon> this channel is like a maternity hospital
18:09:03 <fizzie> Also I think we've had enough of politics for a while.
18:09:06 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
18:09:08 <nakilon> seeing new languages being born lol
18:14:09 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83409&oldid=83407 * JaydenIrwin * (+611) description
18:15:04 <nakilon> maybe #math users rarely have BNCs
18:15:22 <nakilon> so mostly they consist of "alive" people
18:16:44 <nakilon> I think you could CTCP VERSION spam everyone to check ..D
18:18:03 <int-e> also I imagine there's quite a few BNC-type people there who joined to ask one question and just stayed even though they never looked at the channel again
18:18:21 <int-e> you know, people who are on 100+ channels anyway
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18:28:53 <HackEso> zzo38: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:33:25 <zzo38> Daniel Temkin was writing to me with interview questions. But, so far they only sent to me one set of questions and some clarifications which I have responded to both; they haven't sent to me the second set of questions yet.
18:34:43 <fizzie> This was the esoteric.codes person? (I'm bad with names.)
18:39:48 <nakilon> zzo38 I have an interview question for you
18:40:05 <nakilon> what is the game named Aksana? it sounds almost like Russian name
18:43:15 <river> https://mathoverflow.net/questions/393688/generate-all-possible-theories-compatible-with-axioms/393713#393713
19:00:28 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck Assembly Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83410&oldid=82690 * Olus2000 * (+243) No more No-ops
19:02:15 <zzo38> nakilon: It is a ZZT game
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19:17:02 <nakilon> cool, it's playable in browser
19:18:55 <zzo38> Yes, and there are many other ZZT games too
19:19:59 <zzo38> Including, XYZABCDE.ZZT. (It says that ZZT is not Free software; that was true at the time the game was written; I didn't know that a year later ZZT would become Free software. Now ZZT is Free software.)
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19:37:56 <fizzie> https://libera.chat/news/one-week-of-libera-chat "We have managed to finalise registrations of 250+ projects, and we’re getting more and more all the time. Our backlog is as large as our finished registrations!"
19:38:49 <fizzie> For the record, our ticket number is in the 500-600 range, so I'm thinking it might be a while. Even if they're not all real.
19:39:40 <fizzie> (Not that I think lack of official recognition is exactly blocking anything.)
19:39:52 <nakilon> on which day did you apply #esolangs request?
19:40:41 <nakilon> so it was like 60% of the current age?
19:41:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, if there's a dispute about who the channel name belongs to that staff has to handle (unlikely for #esolangs), they can just review the registration request ahead of the queue for that
19:43:10 <nakilon> if their "backlog is half done" and they've processed 250+, then it's only 600 tickets there
19:43:33 <nakilon> if ours is 500-600 then it's like no one requests anymore but I very much doubt
19:43:46 <fizzie> I think I heard something (fourth-hand information at this point) about spam to the project registration address, which might have generated extra ticket numbers that they don't actually count in their queue.
19:45:22 <nakilon> what does the "project registration" mean anyway? the channel is registered
19:45:42 <nakilon> is it about the control over #esolangs-*?
19:47:15 <fizzie> In practical terms, not much. It'd allow us to claim #esolangs-* channels, yes, but I don't think we're planning to.
19:47:39 <fizzie> Unless I migrate #esoteric-minecraft that has just had myself and Sgeo joining and parting for the last N years.
19:48:57 <nakilon> oh, they gave me #ruby-ru 6 minutes ago ..D
19:52:27 <river> would it be possible to program in minecrafting using items?
19:57:25 <fizzie> There's definitely esolangs-y aspects to minecrafting, but the #esoteric-minecraft channel wasn't about that, we just had a social Minecraft server for hanging-out and building nonsense.
19:58:58 <nakilon> IIRC there is a Minecraft mod that operates docker
20:03:03 <fizzie> According to some screenshots I found, the version of the game at the time was Minecraft Alpha v1.2.2.
20:05:23 <nakilon> the first version I played was able to spawn nether portal by F4
20:05:44 <nakilon> I remember my first death ..D
20:06:26 <fizzie> Ooh, I found one of those generated map pictures too. https://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/civilization.png
20:14:32 <Taneb> Ah, I remember #esoteric-minecraft
20:27:23 <arseniiv> I crushed my metaphorical teeth trying to SU(1, 1) ≅ SO(1, 2) (Poincaré ≅ hyperboloid). I should have searched for the exact expression of this iso but I was lazy and hopeful
20:35:31 <arseniiv> <river> would it be possible to program in minecrafting using items? => with droppers and various item filters (I don’t remember how are they made but IIRC they use hoppers and comparators) and various water elevators and water / blue ice conveyors and chutes you can move items in diverse ways. Also pressure plates of different properties detect different amounts of items; and you can duplicate (using something farmable) and destroy them
20:38:16 <arseniiv> using dispensers with a bucket inside, you can switch water on and off, and you can send these buckets around, though conditional on whether a hopper can steal a bucket from inside a dispenser (I think it can?)
20:38:57 <arseniiv> though shuttling many items around is poor for FPS and also they can start to despawn
20:39:47 <arseniiv> anyway there are lots more ways to transport items there, like sliding down honey or something
20:42:46 <nakilon> this reminded me the last line of this article https://esolangs.org/wiki/Anarchysm
20:44:27 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:Minecraft_Pistons_Hello_World.png
20:47:16 <arseniiv> there was something like that (people running “program requests”) somewhere at reddit or in IRC
20:51:03 <zzo38> I think that, should be added into C, the command for adding on to an existing macro. There are some other things that would be helpful too
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21:58:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DynCoder * New user account
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22:10:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83411&oldid=83403 * DynCoder * (+220) added me
22:10:53 <esolangs> [[User:DynCoder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83412 * DynCoder * (+29) Created page with "Person who created [[goatoo]]"
22:16:51 <esolangs> [[User:DynCoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83413&oldid=83412 * DynCoder * (+72)
22:18:29 <esolangs> [[User:DynCoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83414&oldid=83413 * DynCoder * (+0)
22:18:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unsquare]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83415 * Bangyen * (+485) Created page with "== [[Hello, world!]] == I'm pretty sure the correct program is as follows: <pre> OA++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Po IA++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++P..."
22:19:25 <shachaf> int-e: My friend had a slightly different collision problem: Given hash functions f and g, find x and y such that f(x) = g(y)
22:20:36 <int-e> shachaf: there's a standard solution for that: define h(x) = if p(x) the f(x) else g(x), where p(x) is a pseudo-random predicate
22:20:38 <shachaf> The solution I ended up with is pretty simple, but it's kind of neat.
22:21:01 <int-e> shachaf: then any collision of h(x) is a collision between f and g with 50% probability
22:21:02 <shachaf> Oh man, that's my solution. Except I just used the low bit of x, which should be fine here presumably.
22:21:32 <shachaf> Do you happen to have a reference for this?
22:23:33 <int-e> I think I've seen a name attached to it.
22:23:57 <int-e> I wish I could remember :P
22:24:37 <int-e> shachaf: maybe ##crypto knows
22:26:48 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83416&oldid=83404 * Fpstefan * (+16)
22:28:56 <Sgeo> I wonder what a NetHack TCG would be like
22:29:27 <shachaf> I wonder what a Sandwich TCG would be like.
22:32:40 <fizzie> fungot: What would a NetHack TCG be like?
22:32:40 <fungot> fizzie: they say that you can defeat a killer bee is like eating a wraith is a force for good. the markings, teeth, creating a tremendous vice-like bite... piranhas are attracted to any disturbance in the dungeon, these swarming monsters are created evil, thieves, and sake.
22:32:54 <fizzie> I think it would contain at least those elements.
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22:37:48 <nakilon> there should be a game where enemies are named after esoteric languages
22:39:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unsquare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83417&oldid=83415 * Bangyen * (+138) /* Hello, world! */
22:39:56 <nakilon> the Brainfuck monster according to its name would aim in the head attacking with psy waves
22:41:55 <nakilon> to defeat them you should write code in them
22:46:05 <esolangs> [[Pointfree programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83418&oldid=74534 * Fpstefan * (+124)
22:46:30 <int-e> shachaf: well, that went well.
22:46:34 <zzo38> I like a rule that you need not use the officially printed cards; you can use your own that contain the same text, if the mass, size, etc matches the official ones. If you are not using card sleeves, the back must also match.
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22:50:45 <esolangs> [[Unsquare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83419&oldid=67140 * Bangyen * (+125)
23:01:15 <int-e> shachaf: So, of course it's attributed van Oorschot and Wiener, the same people who came up with the distinguished points parallel search, and even the same paper.
23:03:23 <esolangs> [[Goatoo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83420 * DynCoder * (+3439) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Goatoo |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:DynCoder]] |refimpl=[https://github.com/Joshua260403/goatoo GitHub] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |memsys=..."
23:03:47 <esolangs> [[Goatoo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83421&oldid=83420 * DynCoder * (+11)
23:04:07 <shachaf> int-e: Right, I just realized this paper was already in my paper collection, and was just the original parallel rho/lambda paper.
23:04:20 <shachaf> So surely it should be cited one way or another.
23:24:24 <velik> output: "<j2,@,Yj#?\\13:\"", exit code: 3
23:25:32 <river> \rasel <j3,@,Yj#?\13:"
23:25:33 <velik> output: "<3@Y#\\3\x00\"", exit code: 3
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23:28:44 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83422&oldid=83396 * Nakilon * (+20) Quine
23:30:45 <nakilon> somehow it's twice shorter than Befunge quines
23:33:56 <fizzie> Not the Funge-98 quines though.
23:34:22 <fizzie> (With the leading space.)
23:36:12 <nakilon> rosetta code has shorter Befunge than on Esolangs http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Quine#Befunge
23:37:28 <fizzie> Odd that we don't have that one, it's the kinda-obvious one.
23:38:09 <cd> probably "reading source is cheating" mentality
23:38:38 <fizzie> Nah, the one we do reads the source.
23:39:01 <fizzie> It just does a bounce-around loop instead of the wraparound loop.
23:39:49 <fizzie> I imagine that could be replaced by the Rosetta Code one, at least as far as quine aesthetics go.
23:41:06 <fizzie> The stringmode quines get a little long in Befunge-93 because there's no coalescing of spaces, so you end up with having to trim them manually, and it gets slightly verbose to do on one line.
23:41:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Clockwise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83423&oldid=83388 * Bangyen * (+202)
23:41:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Clockwise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83424&oldid=83423 * Bangyen * (+2)
23:41:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83425&oldid=83416 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* G */ Goatoo
23:42:24 <fizzie> Here's a Befunge-98 version with no leading space: <@,+1!',ka$"
23:43:34 <nakilon> hm, so funge-98 does not go around in the loop
23:43:53 <nakilon> maybe I could do that too with negative jump
23:43:56 <fizzie> `` echo "<@,+1!',ka$\"" > /tmp/q.b98; /hackenv/interps/cfunge/cfunge /tmp/q.b98
23:44:33 <fizzie> Annoying to escape something that contains both a ' and a " in bash.
23:44:48 <fizzie> (Is there something like Perl's arbitrary-delimiter thing?)
23:46:30 <nakilon> I don't get it why the space or $ in your example
23:47:07 <fizzie> In stringmode, the infinite empty space around the program gets coalesced into a single ' ' character.
23:47:18 <fizzie> So the $ drops it; or the version with the leading space just contains it in the program.
23:48:19 <fizzie> Also applies to any intervening spaces. To quote from the spec: "In Funge-98 stringmode, spaces are treated "SGML-style"; that is, when any contiguous series of spaces is processed, it only takes one tick and pushes one space onto the stack."
23:48:56 <fizzie> For wrapping in Funge-98, conceptually you just apply the above rule to the infinite amount of spaces your string would otherwise have.
23:50:49 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83426&oldid=83187 * Bangyen * (+100)
23:51:05 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83427&oldid=83426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Cat program */ Fix (thanks, Bangyen)
23:51:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83428&oldid=83424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+164) /* Cat Program */ Reply
23:54:38 <nakilon> ok, negative jumps sucks but I made it in one instead of two
23:54:42 <velik> output: "<@,Yj#?\\15:,\"", exit code: 5
00:00:57 <b_jonas> "<Sgeo> I wonder what a NetHack TCG would be like" => I was wondering about that at some point, and figured out some possible mechanics, but in the end it mostly comes down to making any good TCG core, then flavoring it to nethack by throwing in as many nethack references as you can. Same as you'd make a TCG for a TV series.
00:01:42 <cd> if computerized, the biggest way you could do it is simply to try and have as much foresight as nethack itself
00:01:46 <cd> good luck with that though
00:02:14 <cd> You apply the potion of oil to the iron golem, it's attack power doubles!
00:02:31 <b_jonas> that's an interesting quine, how does the unbalanced double quote work?
00:03:08 <zzo38> You can try to make up templates for the TCG using TeXnicard, perhaps. I also believe that a computer implementation of the rules should be written as FOSS, perhaps using literate programming so that it includes the general text too.
00:03:47 <nakilon> b_jonas it reads it once for start then wraps around the line and reads it again for the end
00:04:32 <esolangs> [[BF-PDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83429&oldid=83008 * Bangyen * (-74)
00:04:44 <esolangs> [[BFStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83430&oldid=83011 * Bangyen * (-53)
00:05:08 <esolangs> [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83431&oldid=83007 * Bangyen * (-15) /* Interpreter */
00:05:23 <esolangs> [[RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83432&oldid=83010 * Bangyen * (-53)
00:05:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: bash arbitrary delimiter: there's here-docs, but nothing like perl/ruby's single character delimiter. I would occasionally like a better delimiter for URLs in bash, because neither " nor ' works.
00:06:59 <b_jonas> nakilon: oh! so that's why when I miss the @ builtin you get an infinite loop. that makes much more sense
00:08:53 <b_jonas> well that makes more sense
00:10:02 <zzo38> I have found ' suitable to delimit URLs in bash
00:11:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: that doesn't work well because URLs can contain ' so then you have to escape it
00:12:15 <b_jonas> $'' doesn't work for the same reason; "" doesn't work because now you have to escape dollar signs
00:14:42 <b_jonas> and yes, this is a small complaing, I do generally like bash
00:14:45 <zzo38> I had never needed to use a URL with '
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00:18:45 <nakilon> hey I made it even shorter
00:18:51 <velik> output: "<@,Yj5#?:,\"", exit code: 0
00:19:53 <nakilon> both ? branches reach the j, but one gets 5 and another carries own end-loop 0
00:21:50 <nakilon> it's now 1 char shorter than Befunge-98 I guess
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00:35:02 <nakilon> `rasel "tobadbmal olleh >",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
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00:42:40 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83433&oldid=83422 * Nakilon * (+7) /* Quine */ 11 chars
01:37:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aylias * New user account
01:39:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83434&oldid=83411 * Aylias * (+206) /* Introductions */
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01:47:24 <fizzie> Heh, I was fiddling in SASL support to my IRC thing (seems to be working now), and noticed I had originally generated a 10-year self-signed cert, which will expire next year. Wonder how I'm supposed to remember something like that.
01:48:17 <int-e> put it into your calendar and hope that it survives the 2 software migrations in the meantime?
01:52:02 <fizzie> Hmm, it might just barely work.
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02:16:15 <fizzie> Turns out bip doesn't do SASL. :/ (After adding it to the homegrown bot thing, was thinking of setting it up for this human-client connection too.)
02:17:09 <int-e> irssi does. weechat does too, presumably
02:17:45 <fizzie> Yeah, but they're not bouncers.
02:18:06 <fizzie> I went through this phase of experimenting with clients, and it was convenient to not have that cause any trouble.
02:18:15 <fizzie> (I know ZNC does, but it's too mainstream.)
02:18:22 <int-e> oh bouncers, right
02:18:56 <int-e> well, being mainstream may correlate with growing sasl support
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02:19:59 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess. bip does client-side certificates, which is *almost* but not exactly the same.
02:21:23 <fizzie> (Adding a client cert fingerprint to NickServ makes it auto-identify soon *after* connecting, but you still need to do a SASL EXTERNAL thing in the connection registration stage to make it happen before actually connecting.)
02:21:28 <int-e> ...almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea...
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03:16:17 <imode> did y'all get your channel seized on freenode.
03:16:20 <imode> because #lobsters did.
03:16:31 <cd> everyone did
03:16:42 <cd> they've seized every single channel that mentions libera.
03:17:11 <cd> all of them
03:17:17 <imode> and are doing.. what.
03:17:41 <cd> forcibly preventing the channel from leaving, by hiding the fact it moved
03:17:50 <cd> it's redirected to it's ## version, and owned by a placeholder account
03:18:22 <imode> anybody wanna argue about FUD when moving networks now.
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03:22:28 <int-e> /!\ Freenode has started to take over project channels that advertise ("spam") Libera Chat in the topic, e.g.: https://pastebin.com/UGgTwRnt
03:22:57 <int-e> brctl: ignore int-e
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03:24:54 <imode> bye freenode, fuck you andrew lee.
03:25:01 <imode> brctl: ignore imode
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03:28:25 <cd> brctl: ignore cd
03:29:09 <pikhq> that's pretty... uh, what did they think was gonna happen
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03:32:24 <chibi> pikhq: Probably hope to snag users that haven't realized everyone's movied to libera
03:32:44 <chibi> So uders that log on to IRC maybe once-twice a month or something
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03:34:13 <pikhq> i feel like they'd notice the sudden total redirection of all the channels to ## under new management tho
03:34:15 <chibi> I still don't get the hostile takeover of Freenode, I'd assume taking care of the needs and wants of a bunch of smelly computer nerds (present company excluded) would be a much bigger pain in the ass than whatever monetary gains are to be had from owning the IRC chat which they use
03:34:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Amp * New user account
03:34:40 <pikhq> it is objectively bizarre
03:35:06 <imode> it's a monetization scam. you buy and wall users in, you turn the network into an "embrace, extend, extinguish" scenario for standards, then you sell it.
03:36:02 <chibi> Who'd buy it and why?
03:36:21 <chibi> There is an objectively negative cost associated with owning and maintaining an IRC network
03:36:33 <imode> it won't be an IRC network. it'll be an irc.com network.
03:36:56 <chibi> Oh? Could you explain?
03:37:06 <imode> go to irc.com and see the plans andrew laid out for IRC.
03:37:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83435&oldid=83434 * Amp * (+155) /* Introductions */
03:38:01 <cd> irc.com is hilarious garbage
03:38:16 <chibi> what_the_fuck_am_i_reading.jpg
03:38:18 <Sgeo> I wonder what they do for channels that are in "violation" that are already ##
03:38:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83436&oldid=83435 * Amp * (+67) /* Introductions */
03:38:35 <chibi> >IRC is one of the last few remaining open messaging platforms that anybody can setup and manage their own communities with. No vendor lock in, no black box services.
03:38:42 <chibi> They introduce this like it's a bad thing
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03:39:15 <esolangs> [[User:Amp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83437 * Amp * (+2) Created page with "yo"
03:40:10 <chibi> I think I see, so Lee's trying to make Freenode his so he can make it the testbed for his irc.com webshit and sell it to investors?
03:40:53 <chibi> I'd ask who'd invest in that, but then people invested in juicero so I won't.
03:41:38 <esolangs> <int-e> Goodbye freenode:#esoteric, see you on the other side (where I've already taken up residence, obviously.)
03:42:14 <keegan> very smart to take over a platform and immediately drive off the entire existing userbase
03:42:33 <keegan> clearly much better than just starting your own irc network from scratch
03:43:11 <keegan> is this just a case of capitalists being unable to understand the internet? they can't imagine any way to build things that doesn't involve first displacing an existing group of people?
03:43:16 <cd> i'm sad i ran out of good trolling to do with fn-ceo, that was fun for maybe the first 30min
03:43:52 <cd> hopefully someone else on the server opens the tmux instance up and starts talking again :P
03:45:22 <Sgeo> brctl: help ignore
03:45:22 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
03:45:36 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
03:45:50 <Sgeo> brctl: ignore Sgeo
03:46:16 <Sgeo> The "redirects" aren't the IRC-level mode thingies that are automatic. Just a change of topic.
03:46:40 <Sgeo> Incompetence? Or intent to... something?
03:47:08 <int-e> Sgeo: from what I've seen they set +if ##channel too
03:47:09 <Sgeo> I don't understand why they would force a redirect instead of just forcibly changing the topic, unless they want the new channel to not have all the users
03:47:26 <Sgeo> Oh, I guess that doesn't forward people already in channel?
03:47:55 <int-e> I think it's because they do maintain the distinction between project channels and about channels
03:48:04 <Sgeo> Yep. Just joined and parted a hijacked channel, and got forwarded
03:48:31 <int-e> they just don't clear out current users
03:51:15 <Sgeo> I... still don't get why they're doing it like this. This still forces a split between still connected idlers and people who rejoin
03:53:05 <Sgeo> brctl: unignore Sgeo
03:56:20 <Soni> cd: you want good trolling? :p
03:56:43 <cd> Soni: I am super out of ideas and the chat moves at the speed of sound
03:56:54 <Soni> cd: https://github.com/propuke/ctcp-s
03:57:12 <Soni> (this may or may not be a good idea. also we hid the original repo.)
03:57:38 <Soni> (... also this fork's owner is a bit of a stalker but eh w/e)
03:59:05 <Soni> (oh yeah this is the old version with GZIP and C-like macros)
04:01:21 <Soni> (honestly not proud of this one tbh)
04:04:29 <Soni> (actually the "C-like" macros may be turing-complete?)
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04:14:52 <zzo38> FORWARD might be a good idea; the rest I don't like. (Also, GZIP is bad because it requires the client software to implement it. Ideally, no special client software should be needed for IRC; such things should be optional.)
04:16:40 <Sgeo> brctl: ignore Sgeo
04:16:41 <Sgeo> -rasengan- [Global Notice] In the recent policy enforcement, some channels were erroneously included. We greatly apologize for the inconvenience. Please contact us in #freenode-services or contact-us@freenode.net. Thanks for your patience and choosing freenode!
04:17:47 <pikhq> like i believe that
04:20:07 <int-e> Sin, then ask for forgiveness.
04:21:44 <int-e> This is a bit of a weird association, really, but I like this joke: "When I was a kid, I used to pray for a bicycle. For months I prayed, every day. Then I realized that God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness."
04:31:36 <Sgeo> I wonder what would have happened to a channel of people sticking with Freenode who happened to be promoting the music group Libera in their topic
04:32:20 <Soni> zzo38: that's part of the point in this case :p
04:34:58 <Soni> zzo38: if you want to be extra-grating tho, something like https://github.com/bittorrent/bittorrent.org/issues/110 may be of interest
04:45:08 <Soni> zzo38: we guess you could implement all of this on an IRC client, but make it only available on irc.com networks?
04:45:59 <Soni> anyway, we should go sleep, sorry. good night o/
04:46:25 <zzo38> Soni: That is a possibility, but I recommend not using them anyways.
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06:33:16 <b_jonas> cd: that's a good one, they kickbanned everyone from the existing channels, that will get a lot of people notice that something happened and get them moving
06:33:56 <b_jonas> "<pikhq> i feel like they'd notice the sudden total redirection of all the channels to ## under new management tho" => not really that, more like that suddenly there are much fewer people on
06:34:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83438&oldid=83223 * B jonas * (-13)
06:37:19 <b_jonas> keegan: unclear, he might want to just destroy the network completely (without directly stating that) and driving people to competitor forums that he has interest in more secretly
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07:00:16 <b_jonas> at least if he wanted to destroy freenode, he had the courtsey of doing it quickly rather than having communities wonder if they should stay or find a new place
07:07:35 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83439&oldid=83409 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+226) Recategorization
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07:28:16 <b_jonas> Sgeo: "just forcibly changing the topic" => that would have no effect, because NOBODY READS TOPICS ON IRC. they just used the topic as a quick filter to tell which communities redirect users to other networks in more effective ways. grepping topics is easier to automate than looking at project websites to see which projects changed their links.
07:28:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: also, if you feel like my encouragement to make a bridge pressured you, you are hereby absolved, I no longer think a bridge to freenode is helpful
07:31:43 <keegan> i told them to eat my balls
07:31:55 <HackEso> milecoin wotioncoin limpcoin fakcoin bfccoin smitisorbcoin safenfcoin nrfcoin axicoin aaallyidocoin dermdrcemecoin shakbcoin hyphillecoin sorthcoin codacoin ampucoin hpndersiopcoin nephalcoin percardcoin igncoin
07:50:01 <salpynx> heh, "Leenode" rather than Freenode , via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27287038 > We should stop implicitly legitimizing Andrew Lee's power grab by referring to his dominion as "Freenode"
07:52:28 <b_jonas> hmm, I was just wondering what to rename the network tag of freenode in my irc config so I don't absent-mindedly connect and join it and think I'm correctly connected to IRC
07:52:37 <b_jonas> will probably still go with something else rather than a cheap pun
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08:00:29 <HackEso> The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The Chännel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago?
08:00:34 <HackEso> Libera is the land of the future. Probably.
08:01:22 <int-e> Maybe we can come up with some law
08:01:29 <int-e> involving a big migration
08:02:03 <int-e> and the evil tortoise (of shells)
08:04:33 <salpynx> (just realised I misunderstood which was the freest... Libera is free-er than freenode, so is freest...) My attempt at a joke needs to be rewritten accordingly
08:04:44 <b_jonas> int-e: evil tortoise? come on, the lore is obvious. the freenode gods pulled off a miracle of setting up a new network in like two days, with several servers, and led us out of Egypt
08:06:35 <salpynx> Of free nodes, Freenode is leest, Libera is freest?
08:07:18 <HackEso> Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
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08:51:20 <nakilon> `` ruby -e "p 'Libera' > 'Freenode'"
08:51:38 <nakilon> `` ruby -e "p 'Freenode' > 'Libera'"
08:52:50 <int-e> > "freenode" > "Libera Chat" -- official names
08:57:18 <shachaf> int-e: Man, I can't believe this thing was hiding in plain sight in the original van Oorschot & Wiener paper.
09:02:00 <int-e> shachaf: well, now you know. (and I do as well, for the moment. maybe this time I won't forget where I saw it.)
09:02:45 <shachaf> I don't think I quite understood what you said about MeetITM, but maybe I should read pages 16-18 more closely and then I'll understand it?
09:03:40 <int-e> shachaf: just the beginning of the second paragraph
09:04:58 <shachaf> The idea that this algorithm also helps with MeetITM attacks, since they're of this form?
09:05:38 <int-e> It just turns out that it's the same problem as you have, but they view it as an MeetITM attack.
09:06:59 <shachaf> I see. I thought you meant there was an application of MeetITM attacks to my problem.
09:07:14 <shachaf> But you meant it more in the other direction, or just that they're doing the same thing.
09:07:22 <int-e> and my point was that this problem is exactly what you described, wheras in section 5.2 it has a specific form for f and g.
09:07:49 <int-e> The trick is the same, of course.
09:13:30 <shachaf> It's kind of surprising that e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meet-in-the-middle_attack just claims you need 2^k space.
09:13:46 <shachaf> Presumably anyone implementing this kind of attack uses a fancy trick like this.
09:33:49 <nakilon> this "Community-curated" in github repo titles...
09:34:30 <nakilon> they always have the repo owner who reviews and accepts the pull requests only if he feels so, the same as in any another github repo
09:39:28 <fizzie> Well, that was certainly a thing. Wondering if I should make that bridge a one-way affair, just freenode -> here, so that it would mainly serve the purpose of letting people here notice if someone they know comes in wondering about what's up. (Up until `freenodecom` comes in and forcibly redirects it to ##esoteric, of course, at which point I don't think I'd bother.)
09:39:47 <nakilon> what even more funny is that you could say "well the pull requests should probably pass the CI checks", but nope -- the https://github.com/github/explore/commits/main has the ./script/cibuild script but they don't have CI, lol -- this script threw errors that they fixed only 11 hours ago
09:41:44 <nakilon> not that it amazes me in any way because I already saw an amazing shit done by github staff
09:43:51 <nakilon> one of their guys took the whole course code of my gem and replaced the source code of another gem on github, not changing the name, nor giving any credits -- just copypoasted the whole code over, with mistakes, and made a pull request -- at first I thought it's someone drunk or indian but nope, he had the "Github staff" badge
09:44:57 <nakilon> though still could be drunk
09:45:25 <nakilon> fizzie I think the bridge gives people on freenode know that libera exists
09:45:37 <nakilon> and that we are active here
09:46:11 <fizzie> Yeah, it's just there's a number of people who I think prefer not to get their comments forwarded over there. But fair enough, I guess it still does that even if there's odd gaps in the conversation.
09:46:21 <fizzie> Like lambdabot just saying "True" out of the blue. ;)
09:47:20 <fizzie> /!\ fungot: Please pretend like you've suddenly gained the capability of spontaeneous action?
09:47:20 <fungot> fizzie: disenchanter: ask not, as opposed to the nether world, the chalk pencil, and without a mother. she is usually heard or seen in profile, the demon lord. inhabited or not, have very detailed short-term plans for it had been very upset to find if hearts be wild and wise.
09:47:35 <fizzie> In retrospect, I think that wasn't the best ^style for that.
09:49:02 <nakilon> so on freenode it looks like a demon lord took a control over him
09:49:36 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83440&oldid=83400 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* Quirks */
09:50:11 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83441&oldid=83440 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* External resources */
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10:39:23 <esolangs> [[Goatoo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83442&oldid=83421 * DynCoder * (+139)
10:40:46 <esolangs> [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83443&oldid=81241 * Sertdfyguhi * (-27) update
11:09:57 <nakilon> is there any website that provides a ""community driven" " catalogue of irc channels?
11:11:11 <nakilon> I mean only those who already can IRC know about /list, and even they don't immediately know about alis, etc., it would be nice to have some guide over your possible places of interests if you are not in IRC yet
11:13:07 <fizzie> It's not a *curated* list, but there's always https://netsplit.de/channels/?net=libera.chat and such.
11:13:11 <fizzie> It's kind of flaky in what it displays, though.
11:19:35 <arseniiv> hi Am Dm6 G F#add9 Fm7 C6 G what do you think?
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11:54:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83444&oldid=83183 * Fizzie * (+1304) /* Freenode and the future */ Last call for objections.
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11:57:22 <nakilon> fizzie it doesn't provide a tree/tags cataloging
12:00:09 <arseniiv> oh, a Quake map. Didn’t play Quake :)
12:00:46 <b_jonas> from an alis topic search on freenode, there are at least a few channels that still advertise in the topic that they moved to libera, but there are also some that advertise that they moved to oftc or hackint
12:05:41 <fizzie> Are they #channels or ##channels? Although I don't doubt there's exceptions.
12:06:02 <nakilon> arseniiv it's in this classic video starting at 4:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg9RVktBNMA
12:10:23 <b_jonas> nakilon: "community-curated" means that is the software is buggy or badly designed, the maintainer don't accept blame, because it was "the community" that maintained it wrong, according to them
12:23:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: for libera, only ## and ## channels I think
12:24:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: there are #-channels too, like freenode/#archlinux-security, that say moved to libera in topic
12:25:41 <b_jonas> I'm not attempting to tell how many large channels have such notices in topic, because it's hard to tell how large a channel is when it's moved away, and I don't have historic data
12:26:03 <fizzie> Maybe they changed to that after the big sweep? Or just were missed. Or got their channel back: #go-nuts on freenode was "recovered", and now says "see <website> for official support channels" in topic, which is one way to put it.
12:26:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, they probably changed the topic again after the big sweep. they probably have nothing to lose by changing it again.
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12:27:41 <fizzie> Incidentally, on freenode we have ##esoteric set as `+if #esoteric` owned by tswett (who's moved from IRC to Matrix, I think) -- I wonder what would've happened if we had had Libera in the topic.
12:27:53 <fizzie> Given the nature of the channel, I think the best-case scenario (as in, for maximum absurdity) would've been that we'd have have both #esoteric and ##esoteric as invite-only and both forwarding to each other.
12:28:11 <fizzie> But I guess more plausibly they would have reset the modes of ##esoteric to open it up.
12:29:06 <b_jonas> "see <website> for official support channels" => yeah, that's harder to object against, freenode historically had extra channels where the official channel was on another network: ##rust before mozilla irc got shut down, and #gimp or ##gimp (can't recall which)
12:29:25 <esolangs> [[Goatoo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83445&oldid=83442 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) /* Language Overview */ Categories
12:29:47 <b_jonas> plus of course such a topic can refer to non-irc forums (though it's less likely to say "channels") for the large number of projects that don't consider the freenode presence official
12:30:23 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83446&oldid=83439 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Move cats to bottom
12:30:35 <b_jonas> "both #esoteric and ##esoteric as invite-only and both forwarding to each other" lol, that would be funny indeed
12:32:58 <fizzie> "Move cats to bottom" <- herding cats, I see.
12:33:15 <fizzie> Oh, cats as in categories; I was assuming examples of the cat program.
12:35:41 <nakilon> there should be a language about cats
12:37:16 <nakilon> oh I see https://esolangs.org/wiki/CAT
12:39:42 <esolangs> [[User:Nakilon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83447&oldid=81104 * Nakilon * (+28) added Libera
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12:42:43 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
12:42:56 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: filtered" (to list), "brctl: filter regex" (to add) or "brctl: unfilter regex" (to remove)
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12:44:36 <fizzie> I named it after brctl(8), the Linux utility to control Ethernet bridges.
12:45:05 <fizzie> ("ctl" is presumably short for "control".)
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12:59:57 <nakilon> does fungot connect to IRC via some network funge-98 extension or is it another process that connects?
12:59:57 <fungot> nakilon: they say that a large number, led a semi-independent life of mortals with a curved single-edged blade. its body around in such a way that it was a blade like a hell-broth boil and bubble." the bushmen say that when invoked, it is inescapable once earned. he is small, has dark skin and wears strange clothes.
13:00:22 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
13:03:42 <nakilon> so it's http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#SOCK ?
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13:03:58 <Taneb> Certainly seems possible
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13:18:13 <fizzie> Yes, it does the sockets with SOCK.
13:18:24 <fizzie> Otherwise it'd be cheating. ;)
13:18:54 <fizzie> https://github.com/fis/fungot/#running lists the required fingerprints, for the record.
13:18:54 <fungot> fizzie: dark room? your chance to develop your photographs!' ( brignall banks, by h. rider haggard)
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13:19:36 <fizzie> I do run a (bip) bouncer between it and the actual network for stability and TLS support, though.
13:20:08 <fizzie> Which also might mean if it's not responding but still online, the cfunge process has crashed but the bouncer hasn't. Not that it's really happened yet.
13:20:20 <cd> funnily enough, hackbot (hackeso) does use another process (socat) for the connection, making fungot the more advanced bot in that regard
13:20:20 <fungot> cd: orion, sirius: orion was the daughter of jupiter and juno. ( capitalized:) a constellation of the king," he said desperately, " one rest")
13:20:45 <Taneb> Many years ago when I made Pietbot it cheated because Piet doesn't have network IO
13:20:50 <Taneb> I wonder how many esolangs do
13:20:50 <nakilon> esobot: "It listens for the MediaWiki UDP "recent changes" feed" -- interesting, so the bot listens to the local network for the message? I wish there something similar in web because otherwise you have to reread the whole, let's say, RSS/Atom feed and store somewhere what was the last id you've processed, and then the feeder has to follow the
13:20:50 <nakilon> order of items otherwise you have to read them all and sort, etc. etc.
13:21:49 <nakilon> "Otherwise it'd be cheating" -- yeah otherwise it would be no point in writing features in funge is you already have the IRC communicator written in something more trivial and probably extendable
13:22:17 <fizzie> Yeah, MediaWiki can post changes formatted as JSON/XML/"IRC" and post them either as raw UDP or via Redis Pub/Sub.
13:22:53 <fizzie> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRCFeeds
13:23:25 <Taneb> (I think I just hooked the piet interpreter up to netcat)
13:23:46 <b_jonas> ok so this is a silly and esoteric idea, but what if the guy who bought freenode is, besides being rich (which we know) is an eccentric (possibly amateur) social scientist who got intrigued by how even though the covid pandemic destroyed a lot of in person communities, it also made stronger communities quickly formed online and strengthened people's sense of community and caring about each other in
13:23:52 <b_jonas> general, and wanted to do another experiment to see how this reproduces?
13:24:17 <Taneb> That seems... unethical
13:24:40 <nakilon> "or via Redis Pub/Sub" -- unfortunately there is no such thing as public pub/sub that websites would provide for random users
13:25:05 <fizzie> socat made it possible to use TLS (...well, after updating to a more recent version supporting SNI...), I don't think netcat flavors at least generally support that.
13:25:31 <cd> unfortunately doesn’t change the fact they need a good smack. (Also isn’t that really unethical)
13:25:37 <fizzie> So that nobody can snoop in on HackEso's network password, impersonate it, and thus gain control of mission-critical infrastructure.
13:26:03 <b_jonas> "Otherwise it'd be cheating." => um, yes, but there was an ICFP contest judge's prize winner that was written in Metafont and used an external command for the socket connections because apparently Metafont doesn't have a built-in way to do this, and we don't want to say that that one is cheating, so we may let it slide for a befunge program too
13:26:15 <fizzie> (I'm assuming there's mission-critical infrastructure accepting commands from HackEso when it's authenticated to NickServ, which may be a little bit of a stretch.)
13:26:35 <Taneb> b_jonas: I think it might be OK when the language has no network IO
13:26:54 <fizzie> Yeah, I think that's the distinction. It's not cheating for Piet either, because there's just no way.
13:27:25 <fizzie> Although arguably that whatever-that-thing-was would have been a more esoteric solution.
13:27:37 <nakilon> "strengthened people's sense of community" -- I'm still not sure it was about sense of community rather than hate to Korean nation or that he had a taste to chose the word "Imperial" to his company name
13:27:45 <fizzie> That thing that was supposed to provide advanced I/O to brainfuck and other similar single-stdin/out languages.
13:29:05 <b_jonas> nakilon: I'm not saying that it's definitely true, but it's a theory that some people seriously mentioned, and so an experiment may make sense
13:29:07 <fizzie> I can't remember the name. Was Sgeo involved with it? Anyway, we talked about it. Not having much luck finding hits on the wiki either.
13:29:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Oshaboy * uploaded "[[File:Hello World Stegfuck.png]]"
13:29:53 <b_jonas> as in for an independently rich amateur scientist who isn't bound by a university medical ethics community or peer-reviewed journals who will boycott them and make their whole carreer harder
13:31:25 <nakilon> people love to join the shitthrowing parties AFTER the real problems already took the place, and don't love to investigate what they were
13:33:05 <nakilon> the whole point of "investigation" and "finding the roots, the causes" seems to be not interesting
13:34:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Oshaboy * uploaded "[[File:Cat program stegfuck.png]]"
13:35:27 <nakilon> this mediawiki event doesn't have a link
13:35:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Oshaboy * uploaded "[[File:Lost kingdom StegFuck.png]]"
13:38:40 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83451 * Oshaboy * (+1152) Initial
13:39:01 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83452&oldid=83451 * Oshaboy * (-7)
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13:40:13 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83453&oldid=83452 * Oshaboy * (+8)
13:42:32 <nakilon> oh I already started installing netpbm to figure out his steganography but has already created a page
13:45:00 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83454&oldid=83401 * Oshaboy * (+78) Added information about 1 of the instructions
13:48:01 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83455&oldid=83453 * Oshaboy * (+2) Fixed dead links
13:48:38 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83456&oldid=83455 * Oshaboy * (+0)
13:48:46 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83457&oldid=83456 * Oshaboy * (-4)
14:07:37 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83458&oldid=83457 * Oshaboy * (+406) added extra information
14:08:04 <nakilon> #homebrew automatically kicks you while ##homebrew topic is Discussion on the domestic production of potable liquids
14:10:08 <fizzie> Same founder on both, and I guess that's a valid interpretation of the word too...
14:10:46 <fizzie> netsplit.de's channel topic view suggests ##homebrew on freenode is also on that topic, and #machomebrew is the package manager.
14:11:10 <Taneb> What if I want to run my own software on a Nintendo DS
14:12:38 <Taneb> I think it just voids the warranty and Nintendo doesn't like it
14:13:15 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83459&oldid=83458 * Oshaboy * (+287) More details
14:13:29 <nakilon> but I wonder if it's legal to squat the #homebrew just to kick people with macs
14:14:47 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83460&oldid=83459 * Oshaboy * (+9) link
14:15:01 <esolangs> [[User:Oshaboy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83461 * Oshaboy * (+4) Created page with "Heyo"
14:15:02 <nakilon> it's like... they could not decide who should own #homebrew and made it like this
14:15:55 <fizzie> For the *concept* of homebrew on consoles, I think there's at least some more specific channels. But the package manager is just called "Homebrew". I doubt they have any registered trademarks or anything?
14:16:11 <b_jonas> nakilon: was it actually called "#homebrew" previously on freenode?
14:16:32 <b_jonas> I know there were apple homebrew guys on freenode, but I don't know if they used that particular channel name
14:16:34 <fizzie> AFAICT it's been called #machomebrew on freenode.
14:16:41 <Taneb> I keep reading that as macho me brew
14:16:46 <b_jonas> I think they used multiple channels (no surprised there)
14:16:50 <nakilon> it's #machomebrew now as fizzie said
14:17:01 <Taneb> Weightlifters drinking tea
14:17:22 <b_jonas> well that makes sense then
14:17:45 <b_jonas> presumably the folks on ##homebrew are used to lost people enough that they just direct them to the right place
14:17:49 <nakilon> but the software isn't and probably never was called machomebrew
14:17:57 <b_jonas> like we used to with the other kind of esoterica
14:18:07 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:18:09 <fizzie> The software's official twitter account is @MacHomebrew as well.
14:18:43 <Taneb> b_jonas: I vote just removing the parenthetical
14:18:58 <fizzie> We are forwarding #esoteric into here, though.
14:19:00 <b_jonas> Taneb: ok, but it's tricky because there are copies in like ten languages
14:19:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh yes, you have a point
14:19:16 <Taneb> fizzie: hmm, yeah, in that case it probably ought to stay
14:19:23 <fizzie> It's not impossible that someone will join in search "for the other kind of esoterica", though probably quite unlikely.
14:19:47 <b_jonas> I guess we'll seen in half a year
14:20:10 <nakilon> ok maybe it was machomebrew initially, I missed that time probably
14:20:29 <nakilon> because their twitter is older than @homebrew one
14:21:01 <fizzie> Now I can't stop reading it as macho-me-brew.
14:22:43 <HackEso> Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso.
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14:26:05 <nakilon> rust depends on python wtf
14:26:40 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83462&oldid=83460 * Oshaboy * (+8) /* Overview */
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14:28:09 <nakilon> trying to figure out what to uninstall because homebrew updates EVERYTHING once in a while and it took half an hour; and I have no idea why two commands from SO to "draw a dependency tree" are so different but python is like covid here... https://dpaste.org/416M/slim#L
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14:32:53 <cd> nakilon: doesn't everything depend on python
14:32:58 <cd> rustc uses it for it's build
14:33:06 <cd> a pre-built rustc doesn't need it
14:34:01 <cd> also... why isntall rustc through homebrew.
14:34:11 <cd> rustup exists
14:34:28 <cd> and? what does ruby have to do with rustc
14:34:42 <nakilon> these are all needed to build ruby https://dpaste.org/416M/slim#L2281,2282,2283,2284,2285,2286
14:35:09 <nakilon> why install through different package managers if there is one?
14:35:27 <nakilon> everything installs with brew
14:35:48 <cd> because rustup is specifically for rust, and manages the toolchain. among other things it's basically the only way to install nightly versions and cross compiler versions of rustc
14:36:31 <cd> also why build from source? python is only needed if you build it from source :P
14:36:38 <nakilon> why do you think I need "to manage rust toolchain"?
14:36:58 * cd confused themselves
14:37:15 <cd> oh if you're not using rust for anything you don't, that's my bad.
14:37:36 <cd> if you're writing rust rustup is recommended, otherwise you can ignore it unless your package manager ships a hilariously old rustc
14:37:49 <nakilon> "brew install rust" somehow was enough to then "rust install ..." or whatever it was to install some rust program that btw I'll probably deinstall now since I don't remember it even
14:38:31 <cd> ubuntu is shipping a rustc from october last year... ;I
14:38:42 <nakilon> I guess I didn't build rust from source and this "tree draw" command just fakes it
14:39:00 <cd> yea, i checked, rust prebuilt has no python dept
14:39:15 <nakilon> basically homebrew downloads everything precompiled for my current mac os version
14:39:44 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/416M/slim#L2281,2282,2283,2284,2285,2286,6384,6385,6386,6387,6388
14:39:55 <nakilon> I guess this means right side is more correct
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14:43:04 <nakilon> I see, "This is similar to Ruby's rbenv, Python's pyenv, or Node's nvm." -- rustup docs
14:43:38 <nakilon> (nvm is actually was a clone of rvm, not rbenv but whatever)
14:44:12 <cd> yea, it's an env manager
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15:37:50 <nakilon> I hoped the visualization would make the tree more obvious, heh https://imgur.com/a/yclpTkR
15:39:00 <fizzie> Judging by what that looks like, that must be neato/fdp. Do it with dot instead: it'll be a lot more obvious, but a gigantic and full of blank space.
15:39:15 <nakilon> btw java has made "jenv" too now
15:39:29 <Taneb> fizzie: there's two images there and the first one looks dotty
15:40:06 <Taneb> nakilon: can you get it to drop edges implied by transitivity
15:40:27 <fizzie> Sorry, I think the rectangle for it was shaped too much like an ad banner and I was blind to it. ;)
15:41:09 <nakilon> would be cool if there was a built-in graphviz filter that would concat "nodes that have the same set of ins and outs" with "\n" into a single node
15:41:44 <nakilon> Taneb I didn't process the graph myself, it's https://github.com/martido/homebrew-graph
15:43:45 <fizzie> I seem to remember a force-directed graph vizualizer you could manually "shake" to untangle it, and then freeze the result, but I don't remember where that was. That's the kind of human/machine hybrid algorithms we need more of. (To convince the machines to keep us around.)
15:44:11 <fizzie> Maybe one day they can 3D print that out of springs and you can try to physically sort it out.
15:45:06 <nakilon> did I tell about the "reconstruct cats" contest?
15:46:15 <nakilon> there was such contest on codeforces where there were thousands of shredded cat pics and you had to restore them; so IIRC lots of guys in top were making hybrids that you could "shake" a cat
15:46:42 <nakilon> unfortunately I can't code GUI
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15:47:22 <nakilon> so my cats mostly looked like this https://codeforces.com/predownloaded/6f/ed/6feddc5ed6240a9e1e61b4b089c00e796bda163d.png
15:47:50 <nakilon> but it would be pretty much real to process all the cats because the contest lasted a month
15:48:17 <b_jonas> nakilon: how do you even scan shredded photos? that sounds very hard
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15:49:02 <nakilon> b_jonas they were accurately sliced in NxN pixels depending on the dataset
15:49:43 <b_jonas> ah, so digitally shredded to nice square blocks
15:50:01 <fizzie> Speaking of scanning, my former university had scanned my Master's thesis and sent me a link to verify it looks like what I wrote (+ a checkbox for e-publishing permissions).
15:50:25 <fizzie> All the pages were there, but there was a pretty noticeable broad brown smear exactly vertically across each page.
15:50:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: nice, when is that Master's thesis from? didn't you already make it full digital?
15:50:33 <fizzie> I think they need to clean their scanning machine.
15:50:55 <nakilon> but what demotivated me and I stopped solving prematurely -- is that the chunks had resize kernel artifacts
15:51:12 <nakilon> the squares didn't connect ideally
15:51:20 <nakilon> there were bright and dark lines along the edges
15:51:38 <b_jonas> I think when I submitted my Master's thesis, they asked for a digital copy, and I published a digital copy in any case. I'm not sure if that was like mandatory, or if people were still allowed to make it partly non-digitally though.
15:52:13 <nakilon> so it was their fault actually -- they could resize and then cut but they cut and then resized
15:52:17 <fizzie> b_jonas: *I* made it digitally (of course), but even though it wasn't that long time ago (2009), it still predated their process revamp of accepting digital submissions, so the official approved version is the printed and bound book.
15:52:38 <fizzie> I think post-2015 or so the official copy of record will have been the digital version.
15:52:48 <b_jonas> fizzie: I mean in my case the main copies were still printed and bound, but they asked a digital copy in addition
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15:53:16 <b_jonas> which makes sense, it's a pretty free and useful thing to do to ask for a digital copy
15:53:42 <fizzie> Yeah, the FAQ of the scanning project said something about how they can't accept a better-quality digital version because for reasons™ the thing available in their database must be exactly what was inspected for approval.
15:53:48 <nakilon> I didn't finish the university
15:54:04 <nakilon> was expelled for inability to run damn 3km in time
15:55:09 <b_jonas> well yes, admittedly I also don't have the original version on public internet either, I have the version with the exactly one typo that I found a few months later fixed
15:56:03 <Taneb> My thesis was awful and I kind of wish I had the opportunity to try again
15:56:28 <Taneb> I do not have a copy to hand
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15:59:11 <b_jonas> well sure, my thesis is bad too
15:59:18 <b_jonas> most people's master's thesis is
15:59:45 <Taneb> Mine especially so, I was not having a good time mental health wise and sought help way too late
16:00:05 <Taneb> So handed in 12 pages of rubbish and somehow passed
16:08:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alee * New user account
16:10:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83463&oldid=83436 * Alee * (+88) /* Introductions */
16:10:49 <esolangs> [[User:Alee]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83464 * Alee * (+13) write intro
16:13:53 <fizzie> AIUI I could put any version I like on the public web if I want (not that I think anyone would find it very interesting), this was specifically the university wanting to make their library's publication archive ("full text materials produced in the university, such as theses, journal articles, conference publications and research") include this old stuff too, I think covering all theses from 1960-2015 or
16:14:06 -!- imode has joined.
16:14:10 <fizzie> The FAQ also says something about it freeing up valuable archival space, which might be the real motivation here.
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16:33:42 <esolangs> <Guest75150> So i guess everyone is on libera
16:49:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah. old thesis are one of the hardest to find references to track down in libraries, though that's usually about PhD thesis, and they want to continue that tradition
16:55:11 <esolangs> <fizzie> If your #channel wasn't `+spimf ##channel`d by freenodecom, it doesn't count as forcing. ;)
16:55:30 <esolangs> <fizzie> I really would like to know what their tooling would have done given that ##esoteric is already +f #esoteric here, but I guess there's bound to have been a lot of those channels, so it was probably accounted for.
16:59:54 <pikhq> I wouldn't be so sure
17:09:23 <Soni> we did opt out of the bridge yeah?
17:11:00 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/imode libera/int-e libera/shachaf
17:12:29 <int-e> of course if you mention fungot people on the other side may see that you're here
17:12:29 <fungot> int-e: they say that a hacker named david once slew a giant. he was such a shabby monk to dinner? he invites the very devil, a founding member of the yellowish linen whereof those of the triumph of morgoth elves and men were allies and held aloft the sacred icon. the denticles on its skin muted the whoosh of its body around in such a shabby monk to dinner? he invites the very devil, an army general invited the buddhist monk, mo
17:12:44 <int-e> (and some other bots)
17:12:57 <fizzie> You can also have it ignore all mentions of your name, which is not going to be at all confusing.
17:13:08 <fizzie> Though I'm not sure how long we'll be keeping the bridge for.
17:13:25 <imode> why bother keeping it.
17:16:21 <fizzie> I think the main argument for is, it's a way to let any returning old-time regulars (who might have missed all the excitement) to know about this place. We do get some every now and then. Though it's discoverable via other means (wiki, logs page) too.
17:19:17 <nakilon> \rasel "!evila m'I"..........@/!\
17:19:25 <velik> output: "73 39 109 32 97 108 105 118 101 33 ", exit code: 0
17:20:36 <fizzie> The word EVILAPEEK_OS appears in that noisy bot's source code (in the error message if setting SO_KEEPALIVE fails).
17:23:42 <nakilon> enough amount of funge code might have all the magic words you need to spawn something evil
17:30:02 <V> would it be possible to have the bridge ignore list not mass-highlight every time it's requested? ^^'
17:30:24 <V> just print which networks you're hidden from, etc
17:30:59 <Soni> ... oh yeah that is an issue
17:31:39 <Soni> doesn't help that your nick can't be split with hidden codepoints tho
17:33:51 <fizzie> I need the ignore list to be printable in order to copy it back to the config file because persistence is hard. ;) I can make the bridge commands respond by privmsg, I made them public mostly so that people can learn how it works by osmosis. Also, if we don't keep the bridge up it'll also stop being a problem.
17:35:44 <Soni> yeah we're hoping it gets shut down in the next 3 weeks...
17:38:17 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83465&oldid=83446 * JaydenIrwin * (+42) updated toggle description
17:41:14 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83466&oldid=83465 * JaydenIrwin * (+92) sf symbols link
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17:54:36 <zzo38> Even on news.software.readers they write about abandoning Freenode (for the IRC about slrn), too.
17:56:46 <zzo38> I think that the bridge could be discarded soon, and the logs then being fully on this IRC only. I don't know how soon; that is up to whoever set it up
17:58:37 <nakilon> imgur refused to eat these images now
17:58:40 <nakilon> https://imgchest.com/p/pagyvmeky89
17:59:40 <nakilon> so joining them in groups gave no much profit
18:00:54 <nakilon> hm, actually those huge groups in the corner don't look right
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18:14:41 <fizzie> nakilon: I expect the proposed "remove edges implied by transitivity" (while not exactly trivial to express) trick could help declutter the dot version more, since it's particularly those edges that are a problem. Though it's not exactly representing the same thing at that point, because there's a difference in directly depending on something vs. transitively depending on something.
18:15:22 <nakilon> fizzie I'm afraid I don't really understand the "remove edges implied by transitivity"
18:15:54 <nakilon> I didn't have master thesis ..D
18:15:58 <fizzie> nakilon: Well, for example, your graph has the edges vips -> libexif, libeexif -> gettext but also vips -> gettext.
18:16:14 <fizzie> That last edge could be removed, because vips -> gettext is implied by the first two.
18:16:57 <fizzie> It may or may not really help enough to be worth the trouble, and again it'd give a bit of a skewed picture.
18:17:01 <nakilon> I'll do that after I finish this one
18:17:46 <fizzie> (Because removing the edge makes the output imply if you make vips no longer depend on libexif, it doesn't need a gettext dependency either, which isn't true.)
18:23:30 <fizzie> IME, in large build dependency graphs an interesting way to get still-understandable output is to focus on the question "why exactly does building X depend on Y" (where you pick a particular pair X, Y of interest), and then find all the edges and nodes that are in any path between those two, and keep only those. It gives you a visual indication of whether it's just one weird dependency in the wrong place
18:23:36 <fizzie> that's pulling the rest in, or whether it's something more systematic.
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18:29:46 <nakilon> seems like datastructure {node->[node, node, ...], node->[ .. ], ...} sucks
18:30:10 <int-e> is that a freenode pun
18:30:15 <nakilon> gotta convert it do [[node1, node2], [node1, node3], ... ]
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19:08:28 <esolangs> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83467&oldid=80754 * CatCatDeluxe * (-4)
19:08:40 <esolangs> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83468&oldid=83467 * CatCatDeluxe * (+1)
19:09:07 <nakilon> looks like #help here now is a place for politics and shit
19:09:56 <nakilon> I'm not saying they ircops don't help when someone asks; I mean the channel looks opened for flame currently
19:10:41 <fizzie> The *help* channel is supposed to be #libera, that's what the topic of #help says.
19:10:57 <fizzie> Though #libera is, unsurprisingly, full of the same sort of discussions.
19:11:15 <fizzie> (I'm just there to lurk to get some idea about the community registration queue.)
19:11:31 <int-e> It is a hot topic. ##freenode is taking the worst of it anyway.
19:15:52 <arseniiv> could anyone advice something on representing all generalized circles (so, lines and circles) uniformly? Let’s say I have a thing which applies inversions to them and it shouldn’t try to distinguish lines from circles (and use different algorithms and representations: we’re dealing with floating point, that’d be a wrong decision!)
19:19:24 <arseniiv> I heard something about conformal embedding or like that but I don’t know where to read something clear about that. Like projective or affine stuff goes one dimension higher, this one should (if I’m not mistaken) go up two. And there’s something with null cone and projecting parabolas from it to lines and I’m afraid of that all and don’t want to rediscover it at all
19:20:23 <arseniiv> int-e: do you represent some line and circle segments in your Möbius visualizations BTW?
19:21:01 <arseniiv> my context is the same: I think about applying Möbius transformations to generalized circles in a safe and rational manner
19:21:50 <arseniiv> would we go up a dimension, I’d need to make something about generalized spheres too
19:22:06 <arseniiv> thankfully I’m not that greedy yet!
19:22:34 <arseniiv> oh right I’ll go frighten ##math
19:22:38 <int-e> arseniiv: no, there's just coordinates
19:22:40 <rasengone> arseniiv: alright, I'll bite. generalized circles?
19:22:51 <rasengone> isn't that just a single value in all dimensions, distance?
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19:24:41 <arseniiv> rasengone: even in the circle case, we need to specify not just radius, but also its center. A line needs two points. But these ways aren’t unified at all
19:25:07 <Soni> rasen-GAN is a funny name
19:25:30 <rasengone> are lines not special cases of circles?
19:26:48 <arseniiv> in geometries which admit inversion (like this Möbius group) they are all the same, of course, but that doesn’t help by itself, it just reinforces the desire to represent them unified
19:28:23 <rasengone> well that's the thing, you can specify them by two points, still.
19:28:58 <arseniiv> though that might be a good start
19:29:02 <arseniiv> I feel there’s no way around that conformal cone stuff but I don’t want to google it potentially for hours
19:29:26 <arseniiv> b_jonas adviced a neat projective book but it’s just about that
19:35:24 <nakilon> now grouping looks correct https://i.postimg.cc/LmccZFTV/image.png and https://i.postimg.cc/6KcBFTzJ/image.png
19:35:39 <nakilon> but dot render became larger
19:41:40 <rasengone> arseniiv: what if you used a space-filling loop.
19:41:53 <rasengone> and defined lines as normalized segments of that loop.
19:49:55 <rasengone> everything is either a line or a circle.
19:52:26 <arseniiv> BTW I suddenly think I realized the basic principle there! I read something like that in physics books, the conformal geometry of the sky sphere or something. So it I get that as they intended, we take the null cone that’s alright. But then we treat null lines in it as points, like we did with projective geometry, but in this case just those lines and no other ones. They are the points of the sky sphere, it transforms conformally under Lorentz transf
19:52:26 <arseniiv> ormations (which fix the null cone)
19:52:56 <arseniiv> and now we stereographically project that sky sphere onto a plane
19:52:56 <arseniiv> bam it’s the plane which we want to describe
19:54:05 <arseniiv> though I don’t yet have stereographic transform sufficiently internalized. It’s hard to me to work with it, to write anything at all in linear algebra terms
19:54:19 <arseniiv> I also opened that projective book, maybe it contains some clues too!
19:55:31 <arseniiv> the idea “sky sphere → stereographic projection” seems palatable though. And I’m almost sure that is what I seek; circles on the sphere map to generalized circles on the plane
19:56:27 <nakilon> I think I came up with 3 algorithms for the "transitive reduction" but all they fuck up the rhombuses
19:56:36 <arseniiv> and they can grow and shrink and so any single gen. circle can map to any other gen. circle, which should be possible, a sanity check
19:56:49 <arseniiv> nakilon: do you do something with graphs?
19:57:36 <nakilon> arseniiv guys proposed to apply transitive reduction to https://i.imgur.com/MV6S0BH.png
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20:00:41 <arseniiv> nakilon: ah, reasonable! To get something like whatsitcalled… someone’s diagram. Hasse, I think. That name wouldn’t help, though, that’s just for completeness. Have you considered an algorithm which tries to assign levels to nodes and then layout them based on those levels?
20:01:40 <arseniiv> it seems that may work poorly though, conflating ways to layout almost independent nodes
20:04:50 <nakilon> I think I can breadth-first traverse down from each node discarding all edges that were walked on previous layers during this starting node iteration
20:06:03 <nakilon> *discarding edges to the nodes that were reached on previous layers
20:06:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unsquare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83469&oldid=83417 * Bangyen * (+102) /* Examples */
20:07:20 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83470&oldid=83466 * JaydenIrwin * (+201) link and overflow info
20:07:56 <nakilon> arseniiv was it undersdtandable? ..D
20:12:12 <arseniiv> nakilon: yep, I was away for a bit
20:12:36 <arseniiv> seems like a good idea which I would try too
20:20:35 <zzo38> I prefer to not have too many dependencies in computer programs that I write, and sometimes things that are small enough can be included with the program. Sometimes there are some indirect dependencies and sometimes they can be changed to avoid some of them
20:21:42 <ais523> I try to avoid dependencies that have too many dependencies of their own
20:21:51 <ais523> it seems too likely that something could go wrong in the supply chain somewhere
20:22:11 <ais523> along similar lines, I think libraries should try to minimize the number of dependencies they have (this is probably an argument for programming languages to have large standard libraries)
20:26:29 <fizzie> It's maybe also an argument for programming language ecosystems to have (at least de-facto) standard dependency management solutions, so that people can converge on a set of popular dependencies. (But it's also a *counterargument* for that, because it makes it too easy to have dependencies.)
20:27:34 <fizzie> I like Bazel in the sense that it's really pretty annoying to have external dependencies, especially "large" ones (that themselves depend on other things), so you naturally avoid it. But people are trying to "fix" that property.
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20:30:56 <zzo38> Yes, I try to avoid too many indirect dependencies too
20:31:35 <ais523> with Rust/Cargo, it can be a particular problem because many of the de-facto agreed upon dependencies are unstable
20:31:49 <ais523> and some even have transitive dependencies with big warnings saying things like "not for production use"
20:32:06 <b_jonas> "<arseniiv> b_jonas adviced a neat projective book but it’s just about that
20:33:22 <b_jonas> "<arseniiv> b_jonas adviced a neat projective book but it’s just about that" => do you mean Jürgen ichter-Gerbert, "Perspectives on Projective Geometry", (2011) Springer? that's probably the most relevant, but I may have recommended some of my other geometry books too
20:33:24 <fizzie> Here's the full transitive dependency tree of the esolangs bot and the logs web server, on the Bazel cc_* target level: https://zem.fi/tmp/esodeps.png
20:33:30 <ais523> incidentally, apparently higher-kinded trait bounds are now stable in Rust?
20:33:46 <zzo38> Sometimes there may be the hope to fix it in future. TeXnicard currently depends on Ghostscript, although I would hope that in future a different FOSS implementation of level 3 PostScript could be substituted, and that the program could then still work. (It does'nt even use many of the features of Ghostscript, so a simpler implementation, perhaps called "PSlite", could be done maybe)
20:34:11 <ais523> I was having trouble getting a trait of mine to work, so in frustration I tried "for<'a> AddAssign<&'a Self>" as a trait bound because it's what I really wanted
20:34:18 <ais523> hoping to get more information from the error message
20:34:21 <ais523> and surprisingly, it just worked
20:35:50 <zzo38> Which de-facto agreed upon dependencies" are unstable?
20:36:08 <ais523> there's one a couple of levels out from html5ever, I think
20:36:14 <ais523> in terms of the "do not use in production"
20:36:22 <ais523> in terms of unstable, nearly all of them
20:36:26 <ais523> num-traits is widely used and has a 0. version number, for example
20:37:02 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah I meant "Perspectives on Projective Geometry"
20:37:06 <ais523> in fact, it's a rarity to see a version number start with a positive integer
20:37:06 <b_jonas> arseniiv: also look at Tamfang's code that he used to generate all the hyperbolic tiling images https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Tamfang/programs and possibly some of David Madore's code eg. http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2014-12-14.2256.html
20:37:58 <zzo38> SQLite doesn't have its own dependencies, so I am glad for that and do use it in many programs; it is common, I think.
20:38:53 <b_jonas> as well as TAOCP 4A which explains a way to represent a specific tiling of the hyperbolic plane, useful combined with normal hyperbolic coordinate geometry to represent large regions of the hyperbolic plane without numeric instability
20:39:07 <ais523> one thing I would like to see is a commonly agreed upon library which does, in effect, the OS-specific parts of libc
20:39:31 <arseniiv> hopefully I have that volume of TAOCP somewhere…
20:39:37 <ais523> but not things like strchr that can be implemented in a platform-neutral way
20:39:53 <ais523> right now, almost everything depends on libc and it can cause trouble
20:40:07 <b_jonas> where the Jürgen Richter-Gerbert explains the coordinate geometry. alas I don't understand most of these topics in detail, and it doesn't seem to be as easy computationally as the Euclidean plane.
20:40:09 <ais523> a few years ago I was helping my boss debug a Haskell programming, the problem was caused by libc's stdio buffering
20:40:20 <ais523> and my boss was having trouble understanding why the Haskell program was using a C library at all
20:40:27 <arseniiv> (how to organize notes on such diverse topics? I will definitely forget all that but at least I can bookmark the code in the browser)
20:40:39 <b_jonas> oh, and http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-12-17.2175.trigonometrie-triangle.html might help
20:40:44 <ais523> (I explained that going via C for the operating sustem interface was the easiest way to make your language run on multiple operating system)
20:41:31 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah, the hyperbolic cosine law
20:41:53 <ais523> also my grammar has gotten a lot worse over the last couple of years, for some reason
20:41:54 <arseniiv> hm I need to invent a way to write all tree of them as one
20:42:30 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I try to avoid dependencies that have too many dependencies of their own" => yeah, the CPAN/node.js dependency hell. usually those kinds of modules that pull in a huge dependency tree of things that seem completely unrelated to what the modules are supposed to be doing turn out to be low quality.
20:43:15 <b_jonas> ah yes, there's stuff like that in Cargo too
20:43:38 <nakilon> Taneb fizzie I guess that's it https://imgchest.com/p/pdl7px9j4ox
20:45:01 <esolangs> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83471&oldid=73905 * Ais523 * (+106) update on the IRC situation
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20:48:19 <nakilon> does dot have any parameter to "think harder" how to arrange things?
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20:51:05 <ais523> nakilon: I think dot's algorithm is actually deterministic, it just does a tsort and then puts arrows accordingly
20:51:31 <ais523> there is neato if you want a more complicated algorithm for arranging things
20:52:46 <ais523> (same input format as dot, same developers, but a very different placement algorithm)
20:54:31 <ais523> oh, this reminds me: I'm working on an esolang which will primarily handle integers, but I want it to be able to work with complex rationals too
20:54:47 <ais523> and I'm wondering how to implement the modulus/floor-divide operations on complex numbers (which I want to include because they're useful on integers)
20:55:27 <ais523> after researching it, it looks like "symmetric modulus" (the counterpart to rounded division) is a meaningful operation on complex numbers, but then the modulus operation will work differently on real numbers and on complex numbers, which is weird
20:56:09 <ais523> does anyone know of a sensible generalisation of floor-division (and the corresponding remainder operation) to the complex numbers?
20:57:22 <nakilon> I've just implemented RASEL in Ruby that already has Rational ..D also it has Complex IIRC but I didn't use it
20:57:56 <ais523> at least floor-division on real rationals is easy enough to implement
20:58:15 <ais523> (you divide the rationals, then floor to the next integer below if the result isn't an integer, this gives a sensible definition for the modulus)
20:59:25 <ais523> I guess you can implement modulus for complex numbers by requiring that the resulting modulus is within 90° anticlockwise of the divisor on the complex plane
21:00:11 <ais523> although, generalising that to integers, you get floor-division when the denominator is positive but ceil-division when the denominator is negative, which I guess might be a useful operation?
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21:04:38 <esolangs> [[Unsquare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83472&oldid=83419 * Bangyen * (+84) /* Implementations */
21:13:33 <zzo38> There are some nonstandard C functions that can be useful, such as fopencookie, which is a GNU extension. I found that it seems musl-libc also includes fopencookie, but apparently it does not provide a portable way to do arithmetic on file offsets; I fail to see how you are supposed to implement a seekable stream in that case. (Fortunately many of the cases where fopencookie is used are used for non-seekable streams so doesn't have this
21:14:22 <ais523> I have been trying to work out what a good portable system-neutral API for file-like things would look like
21:14:52 <ais523> I think it makes sense to divide files into seekable files and streams, but I don't know if you would want them to be separate APIs entirely, or if you want to merge them to cover the case of seekable streams
21:15:19 <ais523> there are some weird cases, like growing files, where you want to be able to read what you have so far in a seekable way, then monitor the end for new content, in a streaming sort of way
21:15:26 <ais523> (but of course there might be edits earlier in the file too)
21:15:45 <ais523> really the problem is that we have a few different things we might want to use files for, but we're trying to force them all into the same abstraction
21:16:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83473&oldid=83425 * Aylias * (+19) /* M */
21:16:41 <zzo38> I think that the existing system is OK, except that such things as fopencookie are nonstandard and don't have a standardized way.
21:17:24 <arseniiv> ais523: how about picking a “floor quotient” q ∈ Z[i], picking it so that Re q ≤ Re (z1 / z2) < Re q + 1, and making that order linear by deciding something about picking Im q. Then on R it will give the usual floor division and so the corresponding mod too
21:17:24 <ais523> I think it's been generally agreed on that openat and friends are a better interface than their non-at counterparts
21:17:54 <zzo38> It can be used for example, I have the functions that compute hashes: int fosimp_hash_stream(int alg,FILE*echo,Fosimp_Hash*hash,FILE**fp); int fosimp_hash(int alg,const unsigned char*data,size_t len,Fosimp_Hash*hash); (the second one is a convenience wrapper)
21:19:03 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83474 * Aylias * (+80) Created page with "'''MultiStacker''' is an [[Esoteric programming language]] created by [[Aylias]]"
21:19:21 <zzo38> This includes an optional echo stream, in order that you want to write to another stream at the same time while the hash is being accumulated. (You can even chain them; in the case of fossil decks, this will be the case, since you will write the cards to a MD5 stream which echoes to a SHA-1 stream which then echoes to the output stream, after closing the MD5 stream write its hash to the SHA-1 stream.)
21:19:32 <ais523> arseniiv: I was thinking along those sorts of lines, maybe even something as simple as "floor the real part and round the imaginary part"
21:20:05 <zzo38> ais523: There is the C stream objects and the POSIX file descriptors interface; they are different things and can be good for different purposes; sometimes you do want to use both and fortunately you can do so, so, that isn't a problem.
21:20:12 <esolangs> [[User:Aylias]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83475 * Aylias * (+89) Created page with "I am a high-schooler who loves to code! I have created these esolangs: * [[MultiStacker]]"
21:20:16 <arseniiv> and almost preserves conjugation in this case, ah
21:20:21 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83476&oldid=83474 * Aylias * (+5)
21:20:48 <ais523> I guess if you break ties to even, it actually does preserve conjugation
21:21:03 <arseniiv> or if you’d want to use stochastic rounding for numbers from Z + 1/2…
21:21:06 <ais523> "round the real part and round the imaginary part" (symmetric modulus / round-division) is needed to make gcd work, thoguh
21:21:17 <arseniiv> I think some esolang deserves to have some stochastic rounding
21:21:31 <ais523> generally speaking I prefer my esolangs to be deterministic unless there's some reason not to
21:21:58 <zzo38> The source code of TeXnicard defines a "fopenat" function which combines fopen with openat, since that is useful in this case (for accessing files that belong to a package).
21:22:21 <arseniiv> <ais523> "round the real part and round the imaginary part" (symmetric modulus / round-division) is needed to make gcd work, thoguh => is it related to euclidean division Knuth advocate(d|s)?
21:22:30 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83477&oldid=83476 * Aylias * (+171)
21:22:35 <ais523> I think having fopen as the main API, rather than as a wrapper for open+fdopen, was a mistake
21:23:01 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83478&oldid=83477 * Aylias * (+4)
21:23:16 <ais523> arseniiv: it's mostly just due to preventing an infinite regress; flooring an integer changes it by at most 1, but flooring the real part and rounding the imaginary part can change it by up to sqrt(3)
21:23:26 <zzo38> static FILE*fopenat(int dirfd,const char*filename,const char*mode) { int flag,fd; FILE*fp; if(*mode=='r') flag=O_RDONLY; if(*mode=='w') flag=O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC; if(*mode=='a') flag=O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_APPEND; if(strchr(mode,'+')) flag&=~(O_RDONLY|O_WRONLY),flag|=O_RDWR; fd=openat(dirfd,filename,flag); if(fd==-1) return 0; fp=fdopen(fd,mode); if(!fp) close(fd); return fp; }
21:23:43 <ais523> and this breaks the invariant that the remainder of a division is smaller than the divisor, which the euclidean algorithm needs to be able to terminate
21:24:11 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83479&oldid=83478 * Aylias * (+96)
21:24:16 <ais523> whereas if you round both parts, the symmetric modulus will come out smaller than the divisor so the euclidean algorithm works again
21:24:25 <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it was a mistake. But, maybe having fopen separate is helpful in order to allow non-POSIX programs to work?
21:24:28 <ais523> (smaller in this case meaning smaller magnitude)
21:25:01 <ais523> zzo38: I think every major OS, and most of the minor OSes, have some sort of file descriptor concept that's separate from the concept of a buffered stream
21:25:27 <ais523> in WebAssembly, file descriptors are random numbers rather than consecutive integeres, but they still exist
21:28:16 <shachaf> That seems like an improvement.
21:29:19 <ais523> it does break the API for select(2), but that may be a good thing, because it would have helped avoid creating an API that doesn't scale well
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21:31:47 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83480&oldid=83479 * Aylias * (+506)
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21:40:21 <salpynx> rounding discussion reminds me of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_rounding I remember when it changed stores had look up tables to explain. "If the number ends in x, round to y"
21:41:19 <salpynx> ... possibly not that relevant to complex numbers though
21:42:02 <ais523> salpynx: I'm the sort of person who sometimes pays prices like £1.99 using exact change
21:42:41 <int-e> ais523: that's so satisfying
21:43:02 <ais523> it also helps to rebalance the coin mix in both my wallet and their register
21:43:08 <int-e> rarely happens though
21:43:55 <zzo38> I also prefer to pay using exact change when I can, but a law that has been introduced in Canada some time ago makes that difficult to do
21:45:22 <b_jonas> you know how I complained that there's so hard to find detailed information about the IBM Selectric typewriters on the internet that the whole thing seems to be a hoax invented about a nonexistent typewriter, possibly as Cold War propaganda about the US technological superiority? well I just found a nice high quality video that both shows a working Selectric II and talks about how it works
21:45:28 <b_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJITkKaO0qA
21:47:02 <salpynx> What I remember from the dropping of 1 and 2 c coins was that prices like $1.99 still existed, so you couldn't pay exact, unless you paid electronically. I think that mean you could get things cheaper by paying cash because guidelines were to round down (to nearest 5)
21:47:41 <b_jonas> "<ais523> does anyone know of a sensible generalisation of floor-division to the complex numbers?" => J implements a weird one, but I'm not sure that it's sensible, it might be there because if you want to take the floor of the real and imaginary components separately that's easy to implement yourself so they chose to add something weirder to the floor primitive
21:48:46 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
21:49:10 <ais523> b_jonas: what is J's generalisation?
21:49:20 <salpynx> that's cool that HackEso knows where you live...
21:49:23 <int-e> `` locale | grep -v \"
21:49:24 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_ALL=
21:49:52 <b_jonas> it works by making floor(x+y*i)=0 :iff 0<=x+y<1 and -1<=x-y<1, with the equality possibly on the other side of the second condition, I don't remember
21:50:43 <ais523> that's just confusing, I wonder if there's a reason for it
21:50:48 <b_jonas> I am not convinced that this makes more sense than just making floor(x+y*i)=floor(x)+floor(y)*i
21:51:33 <ais523> I think I'm going to go with the floor(x)+round(y)*i approach
21:52:05 <ais523> it seems wrong to not be symmetrical around the y=0 axis
21:52:49 <b_jonas> "floor the real part and round the imaginary part" => hmm, I haven't considered that. but that seems wrong because it ruins the nice symmetry of ceil(x)=-floor(-x)
21:53:40 <b_jonas> '<ais523> "round the real part and round the imaginary part" (symmetric modulus /round-division) is needed to make gcd work, thoguh' => yes, because you want the remainder to have a magnitude less than the divisor
21:53:45 <ais523> no it doesn't? ceil would presumably be "ceil the real part and round the imaginary part", so still symmetrical, as long as you use as symmetrical rounding
21:53:51 <ais523> like round-ties-to-even
21:54:05 <b_jonas> though I will note that the weird floor from J also satisfies that
21:54:28 <b_jonas> which, now that I think of it, might be the reason why they chose that over componentwise floor, oh wow
21:56:05 <nakilon> so I was ready to pull request the --reduce option to the homebrew graph tool
21:56:16 <b_jonas> "file descriptors are random numbers rather than consecutive integers" => I think Linux folks believe that the consecutive integers thing is sort of a mistake, because in some weird heavily multithreaded cases it can cause a performance penalty, and you don't really gain anything important from the guarantee, but it's too late to change now because some existing programs can rely on it
21:56:30 <nakilon> and it appeared that there is some bug in homebrew that does not really show the full tree
21:57:04 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> I also prefer to pay using exact change when I can, but a law that has been introduced in Canada some time ago makes that difficult to do" => er, how so?
21:57:50 <zzo38> Maybe what would be better is unspecified unused file descriptor numbers with a specified minimum, but you can also specify explicitly what file descriptor number you want, and in that case it can be below the minimum number for automatically assigned numbers
21:57:52 <fizzie> When Finland switched to the euro, we never adopted the 1 and 2 cent coins, but we had prices at that level of precision, and I'm pretty sure the rounding was to nearest increment of 0.05 (which doesn't have any ties to break). And you could indeed pay with card the exact price. So theoretically you could optimize by selecting to pay cash whenever the price ended in .x1, .x2, .x6 or .x7; pay by card when
21:57:58 <fizzie> it ended in .x3, .x4, .x8 or .x9; and do whichever on .x0 and .x5. I don't think I know anyone who did that, though.
21:58:07 <b_jonas> '<ais523> ceil would presumably be "ceil the real part and round the imaginary part", so still symmetrical, as long as you use as symmetrical rounding' => hmm yes, you may be right
21:58:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: The Canadian government no longer makes one cent coins
21:58:10 <int-e> b_jonas: they round prices to multiples of 5 cents if you pay cash, or something like that... let's see how close I got
21:58:38 <b_jonas> "but you can also specify explicitly what file descriptor number you want" => we do have that in unix, it's called dup2
21:59:02 <b_jonas> it's probably better as a separate syscall than adding an extra parameter to every call that may return a file descriptor
21:59:09 <ais523> I think it's mostly intended for redirecting stdin/stdout/stderr which have fixed numbers
21:59:36 <b_jonas> ais523: but isn't it also, like, "free" in that it's something the kernel can do easily so why not expose it?
22:00:03 <b_jonas> I mean once you have a unix model of inheriting file descriptors with the same numbers to subprocesses by default
22:00:30 <b_jonas> so the kernel needs an inderection from file descriptor numbers to file descriptions, with some extra state for the file descriptors, in first place
22:00:42 <salpynx> fizzie: in NZ we called it "Swedish rounding"
22:00:44 <b_jonas> the extra state generally being just an O_CLOEXEC flag right now, but still
22:01:07 <ais523> b_jonas: seek position is a big one
22:01:25 <ais523> although, I'm increasingly of the opinion that seek position should be a userspace rather than kernelspace thing
22:01:32 <b_jonas> ais523: no, seek position is shared over inheritance or dup
22:01:36 <ais523> and the read API for seekable files should just specify the byte range (i.e. pread)
22:02:26 <shachaf> I think trying to unify files and streams is maybe not that great of a Unix decision.
22:02:39 <int-e> huh, how was I not aware of round(-x) = -round(x) as a reason for round-to-even...
22:03:15 <shachaf> What else should be in userspace that's in the kernel?
22:03:30 <b_jonas> "<salpynx> I think that mean you could get things cheaper by paying cash" => I think of it as still paying the exact amount, only the coins in my wallet now represent an approximation of how much money I have, which is fine. but admittedly shops can't quite do that, they have to know the exact amount of cash that should be in a cashier's box so that they can do an inventory check to prove to stupid
22:03:36 <b_jonas> fussy customers that the cashier did not steal their money, or to prove to themselves that the cashier did steal money from them, without security camera footage
22:03:44 <ais523> I can see arguments for TCP in kernelspace, although they aren't nearly as large as the arguments for IP in kernelspace
22:04:05 <shachaf> There are arguments for TCP in the kernel but they aren't very strong, I think.
22:04:17 <salpynx> ais523: is there a way to find "the closest" Gaussian integer to unambiguous and meaningful?
22:04:24 <shachaf> And at least the kernel should give you the option of receiving and sending TCP datagrams, even if you don't always use it.
22:04:37 <shachaf> Also TCP is a bit of a scam in the first place.
22:04:47 <ais523> salpynx: round-real, round-imaginary gives you the closest Gaussian integer by all sensible definitions
22:04:55 <int-e> oh no, shachaf is going on a rampage again
22:05:30 <fizzie> Soon all our connections will stop working, after shachaf argues TCP is logically impossible and it stops existing.
22:05:31 <b_jonas> ais523: we do more or less have such an API with explicit byte ranges for, I almost everything in unix. pread, ftruncate, etc. technically you still need the seek pointer for the SEEK_DATA/SEEK_HOLE options of lseek, I don't think that has a seekless equivalent, but that's about all I can think of.
22:05:31 <shachaf> Hmm, so what are the arguments for TCP in the kernel? Maybe I didn't think it through.
22:05:57 <shachaf> fizzie: I think of TCP as more like a deal with the devil than a logical impossibility.
22:06:36 <ais523> shachaf: it seems like at least non-root programs shouldn't have control over things like what parameters to use for their TCP connections
22:06:40 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> And at least the kernel should give you the option of receiving and sending TCP datagrams, even if you don't always use it." => I think they do that, in the sense of letting you use send and receive raw IP packets if you want
22:06:51 <b_jonas> there are like three different interfaces for raw IP already, for historical reasons
22:08:24 <ais523> shachaf: programs are competing with each other for various resources, network is one of them
22:08:40 <shachaf> Right, but why on the TCP level?
22:08:46 <ais523> and the details of TCP can have a lot of influence on how much share of a computer's network bandwidth each of the programs gets
22:08:58 <ais523> but yes, I think it might be possible to make that work on the IP level alone
22:09:10 <shachaf> I think the whole "end-to-end" thing is a great idea.
22:09:25 <ais523> in theory, if you can make it work at a lower level, that would be better, because it would leave fewer loopholes
22:10:30 <b_jonas> (continuing to watch the Selectric video) wow
22:10:50 <ais523> hmm… are TCP and UDP port numbers in a shared namespace with each other? or separate?
22:11:01 <ais523> if they're separate namespaces, that would be a good reason for the kernel to handle TCP
22:11:17 <ais523> so that it can arbitrate when two programs both want to listen on the same port
22:11:34 <shachaf> The kernel would need to handle TCP to the extent that it handles UDP, i.e. check port numbers on incoming and outgoing packets.
22:11:50 <b_jonas> ais523: separate, but for historical reasons the older assignments of well-known ports by some acronym organization (ICANN or IANNA or whatever) were given in pairs of matching tcp and udp port numbers
22:12:26 <b_jonas> then of course the 65536 port numbers easily ran out as people made more and more programs, and it no longer made sense to just assign a well-known port number to everything
22:12:34 <shachaf> I wonder whether if I make a service I can get a low port number for it nowadays.
22:13:06 <ais523> I actually check the Wikipedia article for what port numbers are in common use, when writing new programs
22:13:10 <ais523> to reduce the odds of clashes
22:13:24 <ais523> although, there was an incident recently
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22:13:37 <ais523> where one of the Pokémon games was using the same port number as some widely deployed piece of hardware
22:13:40 <b_jonas> so we still have HTTP on 80 and some fixed port numbers for services that tell you what port to use, but most programs just assume the port number needn't necessarily be fixed, and can either be configured by user with a default or is autodetected through some other service whose port can also perhaps be configured, which isn't such an overhead if you want to configure the host as well
22:13:53 <ais523> and the hardware wasn't doing proper input validation and was crashing when the Pokémon games were played on the same network as it
22:14:13 <ais523> presumably this bug could have been intentionally exploited for years, but the accidental exploit was what got them to notice
22:15:14 <fizzie> I used to pick port numbers (for personal things) by selecting a two-character abbreviation sort of mnemonical to the thing the port was for, and then concatenatic those two characters into a 16-bit port number.
22:15:35 <b_jonas> also there's DNS, which uses both an UDP and less often a TCP port with I think the same number, and has a really good reason to be on a fixed well-known port number
22:15:56 <ais523> DNS servers also have a good reason to have memorable IP addresses
22:16:14 <ais523> fizzie: that's how Donald Knuth picks variable names in INTERCAL
22:16:16 <shachaf> Oh man, if only multibyte character literal values in C had a defined meaning.
22:16:25 <b_jonas> but with the ipv4 space so filled, that's not always so easy
22:16:25 <ais523> except he uses Baudot encoding to fit three letters into the name
22:16:47 <shachaf> I guess no one should use TCP these days because everything is supposed to be encrypted, and TCP doesn't work well with encryption.
22:16:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: people use macros for that, though I haven't seen it used for ports in particular
22:17:16 <ais523> shachaf: TLS over TCP is *really* common, though
22:17:30 <ais523> actually I'm not sure whether TLS over UDP even exists, even if it does it's much less common
22:17:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, quite the opposite, everyone uses TCP these days even if they don't need to, because too many routing equipment tries to be too smart and check things in packets that they shouldn't like the TCP header
22:17:55 <shachaf> Well, establishing a TLS connection over TCP takes an extra roundtrip.
22:17:55 <ais523> TLS isn't the only way to do encryption, but it does seem to be the consensus method
22:18:02 <shachaf> Which already makes it unsuitable for many applications.
22:18:25 <shachaf> TCP fast open isn't great and I think is unused.
22:18:48 <ais523> one thing I dislike about TLS is how unreliable it seems to be in practice
22:19:14 <ais523> bits of TCP communications have a tendency to go missing, even though the entire point of the protocol is meant to be to prevent that
22:19:27 <b_jonas> shachaf: may I point you to https://noiseprotocol.org/ as a nice encryption protocol in general and a possible way to avoid unncessary roundtrips
22:19:35 <fizzie> In terms of total bytes sent over the networks, I imagine YouTube must account for a rather a lot, and since I suspect pretty much no YouTube traffic from Chrome browsers (itself a pretty popular thing) uses TCP, I think it's likely there's quite a lot of non-TCP traffic out there.
22:19:41 <ais523> and so, at the application level, you're often inventing your own reliable-connection protocols (with resending, etc.) on top of TCP, which is just so upsetting that you have to do that
22:19:52 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> TCP fast open isn't great and I think is unused." => it is used by browsers these days, if both sides run modern software
22:19:52 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83481&oldid=83480 * Aylias * (+1343)
22:20:16 <shachaf> TCP fast open doesn't seem great.
22:20:26 <shachaf> It doesn't work on the first connection, and it can be used to fingerprint clients.
22:21:48 <nakilon> I opened a pull request for your idea guys https://github.com/martido/homebrew-graph/pull/14
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22:22:24 <shachaf> I like how TCP has something called "fast open" and something called "quick start" and the two have nothing to do with each other.
22:22:47 <shachaf> Wait, was it called "quick start"? Maybe I'm thinking of something else.
22:24:22 <fizzie> It came up earlier, but there's a proposed new DNS resource record type, "HTTPS", which allows the DNS lookup to transmit enough information that a client can connect directly over HTTP/3 (or do an encrypted-from-the-start handshake) even on the first connection, among other little things like serving from a non-standard port, or allowing delegation of the zone apex (unlike CNAME).
22:25:01 <fizzie> Though I imagine for anything "non-optional" (like serving *only* from a non-standard port), you'd have to presume it's supported, which won't be feasible particularly soon.
22:25:15 <arseniiv> b_jonas: that book is golden after all. Even a hyperbolic geometry dive-in
22:26:11 <shachaf> Putting it in DNS seems OK.
22:26:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: interesting, I haven't followed HTTP/3 and even HTTP/2 only to a small amount
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22:26:55 <shachaf> Hmm, are ports a good idea, or should there just be some extra addressing bits?
22:27:07 <shachaf> Is HTTP/3 the one that uses QUIC?
22:27:18 <fizzie> Yep. It's really just the new name for QUIC.
22:27:25 <fizzie> Just like HTTP/2 was the new name for SPDY.
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22:27:43 <b_jonas> '<fizzie> Though I imagine for anything "non-optional" (like serving *only* from a non-standard port), you'd have to presume it's supported' => sort of, but the server could put in a fallback redirect to a longer https address with a port in it where they serve HTTP/1.1
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22:28:23 <fizzie> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https/ for that DNS thing, though it's only tangentially related to HTTP/3, since you can certainly do HTTP/3 even without -- it's just that the initial connection to a new unknown server won't be able to assume it speaks HTTP/3, so has to use the `Upgrade:` mechanism.
22:28:44 -!- ffmct has joined.
22:28:47 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Hmm, are ports a good idea, or should there just be some extra addressing bits?" => they are probably not a worse idea than partitioning the IP namespace to three parts, one where the default is 1<<8 addresses per local network, one where it's 1<<16, and one where it's 1<<24
22:29:20 <b_jonas> it's like a thing that makes configuration easier in the common case, while you can still have a computer respond to multiple IP addresses if you wish, and that often happens now
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22:32:33 <ais523> I can see some argument for putting that sort of "initial trip" information (like whether the server does HTTP/3) in the same channels as are used to spread HSTS information
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22:36:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I'm glad you like it
22:38:59 <fizzie> shachaf: Just to set the record straight, it is probably wasn't exactly correct to say that HTTP/3 is a "new name" for QUIC, for two reasons: they have been doing actual changes (not just minor incompatibilities) as part of the IETF process, so (what's now called) "gQUIC" is not the same protocol as QUIC; and as you implied, strictly speaking the IETF QUIC is the general-purpose protocol and HTTP/3 is
22:39:05 <fizzie> just the mapping of HTTP on it.
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22:42:50 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83482&oldid=83481 * Aylias * (+2015)
22:49:34 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83483&oldid=83482 * Aylias * (+82)
22:49:43 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83484&oldid=83483 * Aylias * (+1)
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22:51:53 <shachaf> QUIC looked pretty complicated when I was looking at it.
22:51:56 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83485&oldid=83484 * Aylias * (+8)
22:51:57 -!- imode has changed nick to rasengone.
22:59:57 <nakilon> when esolangers say "it's pretty complicated" it means something
23:00:45 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83486&oldid=83485 * Aylias * (+1181)
23:01:02 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83487&oldid=83486 * Aylias * (+1)
23:02:46 <nakilon> https://github.com/davisonio/awesome-irc
23:03:08 <Soni> QUIC is kinda weird
23:03:16 <Soni> SCTP is way cooler tbh
23:05:20 <nakilon> https://gitlab.com/ddevault/bf-irc-bot
23:06:21 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83488&oldid=83487 * Aylias * (+430)
23:06:40 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83489&oldid=83488 * Aylias * (+1) /* Example Code */
23:11:15 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83490&oldid=83489 * Aylias * (+0)
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23:21:40 <nakilon> 2018-03-12: Slack is shutting down the IRC and XMPP gateways.
23:28:01 <esolangs> [[MultiStacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83491&oldid=83490 * Aylias * (+32)
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00:35:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83492&oldid=83463 * Jedgrei * (+138)
00:35:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83493&oldid=83492 * Jedgrei * (+57)
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01:09:32 <esolangs> [[Forth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83494&oldid=73957 * Hmmmmmmmm * (+26) Dead link in Forth wiki
01:11:31 <salpynx> The recent PR on fungot got me excited that github linguist could list arbitrary langs based on file extension, turns out no. Has to be on https://github.com/github/linguist/blob/master/lib/linguist/languages.yml
01:11:31 <fungot> salpynx: ulch! that meat was painted! yeah, baby! even if we can eat, and some would eat that want it; but we call it fortunatus's purse, is called tyr: yet first was the family head of a pair of offspring ( with kishar) of scaly lizards, especially those involving translocation. it was locked. he does not imply being happy and that after a slumber of uncounted years its time in the following: --more-- fury. unlike shades, only
01:12:39 <salpynx> bf and befunge are one there. I was hoping for Lazy K and Юᓂ곧⎔ . Not sure there is much chance I'll be able to get those added any time soon.
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01:25:30 <zzo38> Maybe instead they should add a possibility of a file in the repository to define the file types that you are using?
01:27:31 <nakilon> just discovered you cat get someone's public key like this: https://github.com/fis.keys
01:28:16 -!- rasengone has changed nick to imode.
01:39:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83495&oldid=83438 * Fizzie * (+496) IRC logs URL changed; refresh IRC section + tweak page formatting
01:45:30 <fizzie> (It was annoying me a lot that the logically "higher-level" headings were being typeset at a smaller size than the links to places, so I flattened the page structure to use ==-level headings only.)
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01:55:59 <nakilon> just discovered a cat in my previous message
02:01:32 <fizzie> Apparently works with a .gpg extension as well, for PGP public keys.
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03:20:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quentin-k * New user account
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03:22:36 <imode> are P-systems and counter machines equivalent?
03:23:02 <imode> or I guess, register machines.. I feel like they are.
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03:24:13 <esolangs> [[User:New Army/Yes smoking day]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83496 * New Army * (+126) Created page with "No smoking day has caused trouble to many people so a suggestion to set up a yes smoking day on November 31st is made. {{WIP}}"
03:26:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83497&oldid=83444 * New Army * (+178)
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04:21:23 <lucky> imode: the biologically inspired ? many of them are universal, so yes equivalent to unbounded register machines
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04:51:48 <Sgeo> Freenode now has a blogpost apologizing and saying that some of the channel closings were mistakes
04:59:55 <imode> yeah, like I fucking believe that.
05:09:45 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/alyxw/status/1397774897875673090
05:09:52 <Sgeo> (I haven't directly seen this)
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05:18:23 <zzo38> I do believe that. I think they used an automated filter to do what they did, so mistakes are inevitable. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are really that sorry or if they really care so much, since those things are different.
05:18:58 <salpynx> `` 13 jrypbzr|cut -d'<' -f2|sed "s/>.*/wiki\/$(.\/🌱 4 93079262)/"
05:19:00 <HackEso> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Seed
05:19:52 <salpynx> 🌱 is my attempt at writing an esointerpreter for HackEso. it's sitting in /tmp
05:20:59 <Sgeo> A competent automated filter could have checked for +m, since that's what Freenode is now claiming they opposed, actual inability to speak in the channel, and active spam
05:21:07 <Sgeo> So either incompetence or malice
05:21:46 <Sgeo> Or they could have responded to channels doing that on an individual basis. They claim they received complaints. They could have acted on just actual complaints
05:23:33 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that. They may well be lying about something; there is probably some incompetence too. But, they say, don't attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity. Still, if they don't like certain features of the IRC server, they should have removed those features, I should think.
05:24:42 <salpynx> I can't figure out how to run piped befunge on the bot. bef.bin appends .bf to any process substituted input
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05:48:12 <esolangs> [[PUBERTY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83498&oldid=55787 * RanibowSprimkle64 * (+124) /* Commands */
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07:13:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:New Army]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, autoblock disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Abusing multiple accounts: per [[Esolang:Policy]], you may not use alternative accounts as a method of hiding your actions; this account is only being used for disrup
07:14:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:New Army/Yes smoking day]]": very offtopic userspace page, in the userspace of a blocked account
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07:21:22 <salpynx> `` echo 1 2 | ./bef2 <(./🌱 4 141745954) | head -c2
07:22:15 <salpynx> is a Seed program which generates a befunge adder. The example on the wiki doesn't terminate, most of the examples there don't bother to provide an `@`
07:22:49 <nakilon> 07:51:48 <Sgeo> Freenode now has a blogpost apologizing and saying that some of the channel closings were mistakes
07:23:26 <nakilon> yeah and they did that a long ago, but people pretended that they don't see it to just spend time telling each other about what happened
07:23:33 <nakilon> to build a mood, an impression
07:24:08 <salpynx> I "fixed" the befunge 93 interpreter's appending '.bf' to process subs with
07:24:11 <salpynx> `` sed 's/..bf/\x03\x00 /' ../interps/befunge/bef.bin > bef2
07:25:05 <salpynx> can't get cfunge to work with piped output either.
07:25:36 <nakilon> it's like if I spill a coffee on you and immediately say "oh I'm sorry" but you just spend a day telling everyone that I spilled it and only then after someone start saying "but hey, he said he's sorry" you say "no way! we all spent a day building our hate so now we can't believe he's sorry!"
07:27:33 <salpynx> before and after my changes
07:27:35 <salpynx> `` ../interps/befunge/bef.bin hello ; ./bef2 hello
07:27:36 <HackEso> Error: couldn't open 'hello.bf' for input. \ Error: couldn't open 'hello' for input.
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08:14:04 <salpynx> `` sed 's/\x03.bf/\x03\x00 /' ../interps/befunge/bef.bin > bef2
08:22:09 <int-e> nakilon: well, if that had been the only thing that happened... well it wouldn't have happened then, would it.
08:23:00 * int-e notes that this is just a communication problem. IOW, rasengan still doesn't understand what he's done, or at least gives that impression.
08:23:29 <nakilon> he did nothing and people went shit
08:23:55 <nakilon> then he started applies measures against shit and people started saying that those measures were made before they went shit
08:24:07 <nakilon> because no one will check the real order of events
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08:24:19 <nakilon> people don't care, they want drama
08:24:40 <shachaf> That's why I scrapped Freenode.
08:25:24 <int-e> a lot of things went wrong, but rasengan is not a victim here
08:25:50 <nakilon> because we've spent a day repeating that he spilled coffee?
08:26:04 <shachaf> What's the coffee in this analogy?
08:26:32 <int-e> It's a milk truck. And it has begun to stink.
08:26:32 <nakilon> any acts on his behalf that had reasons that people didn't want to realise
08:27:01 <shachaf> What was this person doing with the coffee machine in the first place?
08:27:07 <int-e> he acts as if he represents FOSS just because he happens to have come into possession of the freenode.net domain
08:27:15 <int-e> there was no way that could end well
08:27:32 <int-e> s/represents/owns/
08:27:51 <nakilon> "he acts as if he represents FOSS" -- where did he?
08:28:08 <shachaf> Man, I can think of someone who likes drama.
08:28:16 <int-e> by denying projects to choose their official home
08:28:16 <nakilon> I asked days ago and people had nothing to answer
08:28:54 <int-e> anyway. sorry, I should've stuck to ##freenode
08:28:57 <river> <nakilon> is making coffee illegal?
08:29:01 <river> making coffee is not illegal
08:29:10 <nakilon> he can't deny anyone to chose anything, he has no ability
08:30:06 <shachaf> This is like the NethackWiki situation.
08:31:00 <lucky> they nuked the haskell channel's ops because they put that some of their users had an unofficial channel on libera, now it's an official channel
08:31:25 <nakilon> they nuked the spam attack on freenode about this network
08:31:49 <nakilon> the attack that was lying to people that there is something that they can't explain why freenode is bad
08:32:04 <nakilon> now when you ask why freenode is bad they say "because they nuked haskell" but it wasn't in the first place
08:32:06 <int-e> it's not spam to tell people that an official channel has moved to libera.chat
08:32:23 <nakilon> it's playing with people's inability to think and imagine the timeline
08:32:27 <river> why are you going on about this?
08:32:32 <int-e> *that* was the criterion they used for taking over channels yesterday
08:32:45 <river> why do care so much about people that are inable to think?
08:32:55 <int-e> #haskell was open for chatting, but prominently announced the move to libera.
08:33:12 <int-e> so you're talking shit, and I'm angry so I'll ignore you for a bit
08:33:12 <nakilon> taking over or running the script automatically nuking channels with a topic and then they apologized and asked channel owners to message them in ircops channel?
08:33:45 <river> IRC was fun for 2 days but now im bored again
08:34:02 <nakilon> you've already been told that they apologized for a mistake but you continut to distort that event for drama
08:34:16 <nakilon> just to keep yourself angry
08:34:39 <shachaf> A lot of things had to go wrong for them to be in a position to make that mistake.
08:34:43 <nakilon> you literally don't want to know the truth
08:35:41 <shachaf> int-e: Do you happen to know any work related to making SAT solvers more understandable?
08:36:10 <shachaf> It's so frustarting dealing with a black box that takes some amount of time and halts, or maybe doesn't.
08:36:18 <nakilon> people love echo chambers where they can collectively hate things and people denying the fact check
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08:38:32 <river> how would it be more understandable
08:38:55 <shachaf> 01:36 <shachaf> The only thing that comes to mind is https://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~vganesh/Publications_files/vg2015-SATGraf-SAT15.pdf which was interesting.
08:38:58 <shachaf> 01:37 <shachaf> I'd really like the solver to be able to tell me which variables or clauses are causing it trouble, or anything like that.
08:39:02 <shachaf> Discussion continues in ##smt
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08:49:55 <fizzie> salpynx: If you have a case where you need a file instead of a pipe, or a specific extension, just make that file in /tmp (not ./tmp), that's an in-memory filesystem that only persists for the duration of a single command.
08:49:59 <fizzie> salpynx: Regarding befunge, the way ! does it is to go through ibin/befunge -> interp_file .../bef.bin -> lib/interp -> save to /tmp/input.$$ and run bef.bin, which has been working fine. So I'm pretty sure bef.bin only appends .bf as a *fallback*; if the file exists, it will run it.
08:50:20 <fizzie> `! befunge "olleh">:#,_@
08:51:23 <fizzie> `` echo '"olleh">:#,_@' > /tmp/arbitrary_extension.txt && /hackenv/interps/befunge/bef.bin /tmp/arbitrary_extension.txt
08:52:30 <fizzie> Oh, it's not strictly speaking a *fallback*, rather it appends .bf if the file does not contain a '.' in the first place: http://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/interps/befunge/bef.c#l229
08:53:16 <fizzie> Well, *that* is a little bit on the weird side. But it is what it is.
08:58:36 <fizzie> It's definitely true that a lot of things don't work with non-seekable input, though. In case of cfunge, that's because its file-load strategy is "stat, then mmap st_size bytes", which makes a non-seekable file act like an empty one, because its st_size is 0.
09:15:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83499&oldid=83497 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+270) /* LifeWiki links */
09:16:23 <fizzie> Well, now, this is a scow: I've been using this bazel-compdb script to generate compile_commands.json from Bazel, but now I've got a cc_proto_library target that builds fine with `bazel build`, but makes `bazel-compdb` just fail because it somehow mucks up protoc flags (or something), and it dies on the line where it tries to import one of the well-known protos (google/protobuf/empty.proto).
09:16:56 <fizzie> I don't even know why it's running protoc, it's supposed to use Bazel aspects to just collect the commands it would need to run.
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09:24:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83500&oldid=83134 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+221)
09:25:28 <fizzie> Apparently the step it fails at is when generating the `header_files` output group of a target that depends on the proto. I guess maybe that involves having to run the codegen. But then I don't know why it wouldn't work when it works when build... oh, I guess maybe it *doesn't* work when building, that target's not "ready" yet so I haven't been trying that.
09:25:46 <fizzie> (The script by and large works even when the tree doesn't build.)
09:26:35 <fizzie> Yeah, I was blaming the wrong thing, sort-of; it doesn't build.
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10:50:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2021-05.html#lpXb
10:51:41 <nakilon> what is "Cheating quines" here? https://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_quines
10:52:46 <Taneb> nakilon: they can directly access their source code or have a command like HQ9+'s 'q' that prints the source code
10:54:27 <nakilon> Taneb then the Fish, Alice and others would be "cheating" but they are classified as "real"
10:55:05 <nakilon> or you mean the stringmode isn't the "access to code"?
10:56:40 <Taneb> I wouldn't call stringmode access to the source code any more than a string literal in a conventional programming language is
10:57:35 <Taneb> But if I made a quine in Befunge that used the 'g' command to get the source code, I think that would be cheating
10:58:50 <nakilon> or rather what's the difference between "real quine" "1" in 05AB1E and "cheating quine" "This is a quine!" in Text
11:02:20 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83501&oldid=77340 * Nakilon * (+30) added RASEL
11:10:07 <fizzie> I can't really justify it that precisely, but I feel like stringmode *is* cheating if you *also* execute the bulk of the string.
11:11:27 <fizzie> As for Text, I don't know if that's so much a cheating quine as the same sort of trivial quine as the empty program in all languages where it's legal; Text just makes everything that.
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11:23:52 <HackEso> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced. It's a warm, dry place, at least compared to Québec.
11:23:54 <HackEso> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham). There's also the hypothetical Gal, which hasn't been observed yet so we're not sure where it's from.
11:24:43 <HackEso> ostrich-hungry? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:24:46 <HackEso> Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split off after a famine that got so severe that they had to start eating disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
11:24:47 <HackEso> Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
11:26:01 <b_jonas> I was just thinking of these quirky historically motivated import restrictions within Europe, like you can't import horses to Iceland, potatoes to Norway, and nobility titles to France or Ostrich-Hungry
11:29:19 <b_jonas> Taneb: the context was befunge and rasel quines that have only one string delimiter, not a pair, in a row, and execute it both as string and code by wrapping around that line twice
11:29:37 <b_jonas> relevant because that leads to short quines
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11:51:46 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83502&oldid=83031 * DynCoder * (+108) /* Game */
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12:12:49 <salpynx> fizzie: thanks, I didn't know about ! to pick an interp (for all my poking around on hackeso)
12:13:06 <salpynx> `` \! "befunge &&+.@" <<< "7 8"
12:13:42 <salpynx> `` ./bef2 <(echo "&&+.@") <<< "7 8"
12:15:22 <salpynx> is my 'patched' version of the binary that disables http://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/interps/befunge/bef.c#l231
12:17:03 <fizzie> The historical context is that the whole interps/ibin stuff comes from when EgoBot was disbanded, and all its interpreters were copied over to HackEgo, from where HackEso inherited them from.
12:17:41 <fizzie> The prefix for EgoBot was ! (as in, !befunge ...), so the command to invoke former EgoBot tools became `!.
12:18:54 <salpynx> the patch is `sed 's/\x03.bf/\x03\x00 /' ../interps/befunge/bef.bin > bef2` , which turns the appended .bf to a null string
12:19:17 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso#Interpreters "TODO EgoBot, !" -- okay, the documentation does have some gaps here. :)
12:20:11 <salpynx> What I was trying to do is pipe the output from a seed interpreter to a befunge interpreter (ideally befunge98), but that isn't working because the original Seed code doesn't include `@` terminators :(
12:21:11 <salpynx> `` \! "befunge $(./🌱 4 141745954)" <<< '8 9'
12:21:13 <HackEso> 17 Unsupported instruction '' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction '' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction '' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction '' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction '' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction '' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction '' (0xffffff
12:22:50 <salpynx> but that's because the wiki Seed examples aren't perfect, and I haven't bothered to generate terminating ones, because that last char adds a lot of time. I don't think b98 auto terminates (compared to b93)?
12:23:54 <fizzie> IIRC, in Funge-98 unrecognized instructions are supposed to act as r (reflect the direction).
12:24:57 <fizzie> (And of course the *lack* of any instructions is just empty space, which wraps around, but that was already the case in '93.)
12:25:04 <nakilon> I wish there was a way to annotate the stack in funge
12:25:06 <salpynx> right, so the difference will be in exactly how they don't terminate
12:25:31 <nakilon> because I do the ...........@ and see 0 -2 9 -2 0 0 0 2 and who the hell knows what does it mean I already forgot half of this stack
12:25:54 <fizzie> I wrote down some notes on my preferred Befunge editor, and one of its features would have been per-cell stack annotations shown in a sidebar or a statusline.
12:26:05 <fizzie> But I've never gotten around to implementing it.
12:26:08 <salpynx> The most interesting thing about writing a Seed interpreter was discovering that the seed produces different results in Python 2 vs Python 3
12:26:15 <nakilon> once I start forgetting the stack meaning faster than reremembering it I just cancel solving it
12:27:03 <fizzie> I think there were a few other features in those notes that I thought were halfway clever. Should really pick it up.
12:27:20 <nakilon> probably I would be able to add the annotation to the debugger that I haven't made
12:28:35 <nakilon> I imagine that I annotate an instruction and so when it executes the annotation applies to the stack values that appeared there
12:29:17 <nakilon> that would probably mean I should print stack vertically, not horizontally so I could print annotations horizontally
12:31:24 <nakilon> but how would you put the annotations in code? maybe some "comment lines" that you either delete in the end (and then have no idea how it works when you come back to the program in a month) or leave it there rejecting the plan to golf the code
12:32:24 <nakilon> or keep it in a special annotation-friendly interpreter that can reformat the code to remove them to "publish a clean version" of code
12:33:17 <nakilon> ideally it should be a real fancy text editor that would allow to annotate pieces of code and see/edit them by placing cursor/mouse on it
12:33:42 <nakilon> but I'm so far from making such things
12:33:52 <esolangs> [[Forth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83503&oldid=83494 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* External resources */ Revive links using Web Archive
12:35:09 <esolangs> [[Forth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83504&oldid=83503 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* colorForth */ Wayback
12:35:09 <nakilon> heh, it's like how Word users comment the doc
12:35:33 <nakilon> maybe I should code in Word?... or a Google Doc at least
12:36:11 <salpynx> comments go orthogonal to your code, so for a funge they need to be in the 3rd dimension
12:36:15 <nakilon> it's possible to write applications for google docsactually
12:37:33 <nakilon> I imagine the google docs app can do fetch requests and so I won't even need to reimplement RASEL in it
12:38:03 <nakilon> but it would still need to implement some sort of the debugger that is the actual place where you need those annotations
12:38:33 <nakilon> or at least the ........@ way of "debug prints" that I use should also annotate the stdout then
12:39:32 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ python -c"import random as r;x=range;r.seed($2);print(''.join([chr((x(32,127)+[10])[r.randint(0,95)]) for i in x($1)]))"
12:40:14 <salpynx> fizzie: is that a useful command to commit? Would I just cp to /bin to commit it?
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12:41:31 <salpynx> It's a Mersense twister random string generator, synced to the spec of the Seed language
12:41:40 <salpynx> `` for n in 28331 835133 30029010;do ./🌱 $((i++ + 2)) $n;done
12:42:26 <salpynx> It can generate text like that which is probably more practical than befunge. I'm still trying to find 'False' output
12:44:26 * nakilon failed to google an "IDE with commenting the code like in MS Word"
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13:00:59 <nakilon> hm, looks like Google Apps Script can't obtain Comments from Doc but it can get them from Spreadsheet
13:01:41 <nakilon> so it would be possible to write the funge code one char per Spreadsheet cell
13:03:33 <nakilon> imagine writing such annotated code on one Sheet of the Spreadsheet, pressing the button, and the result will be printed on the second Sheet
13:04:11 <nakilon> vertically the run history, horizontally the stack
13:12:50 <nakilon> Looks like it's possible to call Cloud Functions from Apps Script authentified but only if they are in the same Project, i.e. if I make such thing I won't be able to give anyone access to it unless I set the Function to allow anonymous calls
13:13:59 <salpynx> I figured out why my random numbers were different between py2 and py3, random.randrange() changed in 3.2 . I can use `int(r.random()*96)` instead of `randint(0, 95)` and the output will behave the same. The _seed_ behaviour only changed for bytes and str, ints is consistent
13:22:00 <salpynx> `` 🌱 () { python3 -c"import random as r;x=range;r.seed($2);print(''.join([chr(([*x(32,127), 10])[int(r.random()*96)]) for i in x($1)]))";}; 🌱 2 73
13:27:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83505&oldid=83500 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) Summary
13:28:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83506&oldid=83505 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) n
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13:35:32 <nakilon> meh, the "QT Marketplace" in 2021 does not provide much more choice than it was built in it IDEs like C++Builder and Visual Studio back in 2005
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13:36:23 <nakilon> and now it's even impossible to find there anything, because there in those IDEs the components had previews and now those are just text items in the stupid mobile-friendly website
13:37:33 <nakilon> or maybe there is the "gallery" that I just didn't see yet
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13:47:35 <fizzie> "Literate programming" is the conventional term for when you want to make comments except more so.
13:48:01 <fizzie> Though I think usually not in the sort of Google Docs style highlight-and-separate-associated-comment-thread style.
13:55:08 <fizzie> salpynx: There isn't a high bar for making HackEso commands, and usefulness isn't required. If you want one, yes, you just need to put it in /hackenv/bin, or ../bin in terms of the default working directory (/hackenv/tmp). For one-liners, people sometimes use: `mkx ../bin/foo//contents of command foo
13:55:28 <fizzie> Also do take into account that when executed as `foo bar baz, the argument line isn't tokenized by whitespace, so 'bar baz' will be passed as the first positional argument. Many commands need tweaking to cater for that.
13:57:39 <fizzie> (And as a consequence, often when you're using ``, something that would "naturally" be q{`` foo bar baz} must become q{`` foo 'bar baz'} instead. Though some commands are user-friendly enough to support both (usually by joining all arguments together, as if by "$*", before splitting them apart as needed).
14:02:04 <MrAureliusR> Is there a good editor for working on whitespace code?
14:02:12 <MrAureliusR> emacs has a whitespace mode which isn't *too* bad
14:13:35 <nakilon> MrAureliusR I guess you can code in another alphabet
14:13:50 <nakilon> and translate it in between
14:14:00 <fizzie> There's a Vim thing, I don't know if it's any good either.
14:15:35 <fizzie> https://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=5035 probably.
14:15:56 <fizzie> I don't think it does all *that* much though.
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14:30:08 <salpynx> fizzie: I see the importance of getting the arguments tokenized both ways -- now handles both forms
14:31:44 <salpynx> `` for n in 28331 835133 30029010;do 🌱 $((i++ + 2)) $n;done
14:48:20 <nakilon> ideally I would expand this thing https://befunge.flogisoft.com/
14:49:04 <HackEso> Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
14:49:31 <nakilon> but it would be hard to make something based on it; hard to take the parts I need out
14:51:06 <nakilon> this numbers thing reminded me another funny local personality
14:51:32 <nakilon> that said that he has invented the compression based on division
14:52:21 <nakilon> "just find two numbers that diving one on another produce the infinite chain of digits you need and you'll be able to compress the whole CD in several digits"
14:53:04 <salpynx> Seed is a pretty poor compression algorithm ... on average. It'd be great to find one really good counter-examples
14:53:27 <salpynx> oh, yeah, that's pretty much the same concept
14:53:48 <salpynx> If it's the right CD, sure :)
14:55:00 <salpynx> Waterfall sounds (synthesised)
15:02:22 <esolangs> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83507&oldid=81205 * Robolta * (+1) /* Interpreters */
15:02:37 <esolangs> [[Patternfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83508&oldid=83507 * Robolta * (-2) /* Interpreters */
15:06:39 <esolangs> [[User:VilgotanL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83509&oldid=82925 * VilgotanL * (+32) added languages i've created
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15:21:23 <arseniiv> <salpynx> Waterfall sounds (synthesised) => lol
15:30:32 <fizzie> The problem with that question is, people keep using the term "waterfall plot" for a spectrogram with a vertical time axis, meaning it's hard to find good results that are actually related to spectra of real waterfalls.
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15:32:32 <fizzie> Galburn, L & Ali, TT, 2013, Acoustical and perceptual assessment of water sounds and their use over road traffic noise, JASA 133(1), pp. 227-237, suggests it's pretty white, all things considered.
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15:33:42 <fizzie> (Cf. Fig 4(a), "Spectra obtained for -- plain edge waterfall of 1 m width and 1 m height of falling water.")
15:45:14 <esolangs> [[Eul]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83510&oldid=73050 * Backspace * (+1832)
15:45:58 <esolangs> [[Eul]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83511&oldid=83510 * Backspace * (-2)
15:46:25 <esolangs> [[Eul]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83512&oldid=83511 * Backspace * (+2) /* Memory */
15:48:24 <esolangs> [[Eul]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83513&oldid=83512 * Backspace * (+31) /* Welcome to Eul */
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16:45:31 <esolangs> [[Struffoli]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83514&oldid=82940 * Zero player rodent * (+15)
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17:57:46 <esolangs> [[2Swap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83515 * VilgotanL * (+1164) created the page
17:58:27 <esolangs> [[2Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83516&oldid=83515 * VilgotanL * (+0) minor edit
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18:22:30 <esolangs> [[2Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83517&oldid=83516 * VilgotanL * (+53) add example
18:27:51 <esolangs> [[2Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83518&oldid=83517 * VilgotanL * (+70) add implementation
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18:29:01 <esolangs> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83519&oldid=83509 * VilgotanL * (+12) added 2Swap to language list
18:31:52 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83520&oldid=82891 * Oshaboy * (+6350) Added JSFuck
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18:39:21 <esolangs> [[2Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83521&oldid=83518 * VilgotanL * (+55) fix computational class section
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19:10:54 <arseniiv> now I read “synaesthesized” in place of “synthesized” :o
19:12:50 <arseniiv> tried to draw those projection things with a cone with circle and parabola on it in geogebra 3D mode, and it was surprisingly neat
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19:26:34 <wib_jonas> libera's official webchat at https://web.libera.chat/ is ready. this seems like a good time to make the channel move official and put a webchat link to the wiki page
19:26:49 <b_jonas> fizzie, what's your opinion?
19:28:53 <fizzie> In my latest talk page post I said I'd do it unless anyone objects "by EOW", but I'm not too fussy about waiting if people want to go ahead.
19:29:04 <fizzie> What you could *definitely* do though is to replace the kiwiirc link I put on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal
19:29:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83522&oldid=83495 * B jonas * (-23) webchat link
19:30:20 <zzo38> Yes, although, the <noscript> block should be corrected; it isn't very good what they have now
19:30:35 <fizzie> At this point "making it official" probably consists of dropping the Freenode link and replacing the last paragraph of that section with a sentence about how we used to be on Freenode before. If nobody goes and does it before, I'll do that on Sunday.
19:32:38 <b_jonas> and mention that it's bridged, and possibly create a separate page for the esolangs bot, which gets complicated because there's already an unrelated article called [[esowiki]]
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19:32:56 <b_jonas> is it still bridged by the way?
19:33:09 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
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19:38:03 <Sgeo|web> Hmm. The page for that other place mentions this as Kiwi, didn't see that for Libera's.
19:38:51 <Sgeo|web> So Kiwi can be used by both a network as a custom web chat and as an overall IRC client?
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19:40:58 <fizzie> Yes, I think so. They call it "embedding" when it's done by a network to provide a webchat.
19:41:16 <fizzie> But there's also the "unaffiliated" instance which you can use to connect to wherever.
19:43:22 <Sgeo> Apparently KiwiIRC is sponsored by PIA...
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19:50:41 <b_jonas> Sgeo: yes, Kiwiirc can still be used, but it's not where we primarily send new visitors
19:52:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Salmmanfred * New user account
20:04:52 <nakilon> I wish that guy get a position in some Internet comitee so all the drama lovers would abandon the Internet and
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20:31:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83523&oldid=83493 * Salmmanfred * (+331) /* Introductions */
20:31:29 <esolangs> [[Flkl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83524 * Salmmanfred * (+7372) Created page with "== Flkl programming language == <br> Flkl is a language made by Salmmanfred in about 3 hours === The spec <br> === |a = nothing<br> f = load a string/int into the data<br> p..."
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20:36:54 <fizzie> Speaking of webs and chats, I've been reading up on Matrix out of curiosity, because I mostly just knew vaguely "it's that thing with the bridge that sometimes goes up and down", but not really the details vis-à-vis the federation stuff and the event graph and whatnot.
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20:50:27 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
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20:51:07 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
20:51:15 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
20:51:19 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
20:51:24 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
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20:53:07 <fizzie> It won't really get any better than that.
20:55:22 <esolangs> [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83525&oldid=81275 * Bangyen * (+97)
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22:05:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lucky * New user account
22:06:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83526&oldid=83523 * Lucky * (+242) /* Introductions */
22:08:51 <nakilon> imagine you want to chose N colors that would look enough different from each other
22:09:05 <nakilon> you can take the 360 Hue circle and split it evenly
22:09:30 <nakilon> now imagine you don't know the N ahead and users just wants you to come up with new and new colors
22:09:56 <b_jonas> just use black, white, yellow, red, and blue
22:10:07 <nakilon> I imagined maybe there is some "golden ratio" but then it's 360 looped space that makes it different probably
22:10:14 <lucky> a sequence of black and white is sufficient to encode all other colours
22:10:28 <keegan> I'm not sure that evenly spaced hues is even optimal to begin with
22:10:31 <keegan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_difference#CIELAB_%CE%94E*
22:10:34 <nakilon> b_jonas but what should be the 6th color?
22:11:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: after that you redesign your UI to not use that many colors
22:11:06 <lucky> there's some fascinating old chart about the prevalence of primary colour terms in the major world languages
22:11:16 <nakilon> lets think of it that it's not related to color but you just want to split the circle as evenly as possible
22:11:32 <b_jonas> nakilon: then sure, then you can use golden ratio
22:11:35 <lucky> https://stancarey.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/vox-video-colour-terms-sequence-from-berlin-kay-1969.png
22:11:55 <b_jonas> multiples of (sqrt(5)-1)/2 times the full circle
22:11:56 <lucky> i would nominate brown as the 6th
22:12:20 <b_jonas> nakilon: see TAOCP volume 2
22:12:23 <b_jonas> let me look up the exact place
22:12:51 <nakilon> maybe this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_angle
22:13:53 <b_jonas> nakilon: chapter 6.4, page 517 in second edition
22:15:10 <nakilon> I had volumed 1 2 and 4, not 3, lol
22:15:29 <nakilon> then I saw exactly the 3rd volume in my company library
22:15:49 <nakilon> I still think it's not a coincidence
22:17:51 <nakilon> b_jonas wikipedia says it's chapter "Hashing"
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22:22:37 <nakilon> "Mathematical modelling of a plausible physical mechanism for floret development has shown the pattern arising spontaneously from the solution of a nonlinear partial differential equation on a plane."
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22:35:27 <keegan> i'm not saying it was aliens, but it was aliens
22:36:09 <nakilon> damn I could not finish X-files ( they went shit in 6th season or so
22:36:20 <nakilon> with Robert Patrick and stuff
22:36:38 <nakilon> only the first episode with him was good
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22:38:54 <nakilon> so I guess the colors for my funge-debugger annotations instruction highlighting should be Hue=(137.508 * N) % 360
22:39:25 <nakilon> but I yet can't find anything usable for GUI in Ruby
22:40:16 <nakilon> many advices point to switching to kinds of JS interface
22:42:35 <fizzie> Personally when I need to pick colors, I just go to https://colorbrewer2.org/ ;)
22:42:43 <fizzie> Okay, it's a little specific-niche.
22:42:48 <nakilon> wait, it's not the golden angle in flowers
22:42:59 <nakilon> it's some "fibonacchi angle
22:43:33 <keegan> fizzie: that's a neat site!
22:44:09 <fizzie> One of old-old channel regulars (or was he even a regular here, or just some of my IRCnet channels?) once made a very nice (manually) syntax-highlighted Befunge program, but I think the Internet no longer has a copy.
22:44:25 <nakilon> oh wait it's still 137 https://thatsmaths.com/2014/06/05/sunflowers-and-fibonacci-models-of-efficiency/
22:45:04 <fizzie> Oh, Wayback Machine has a copy: http://web.archive.org/web/20060925160554/http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/qsort.html
22:56:46 <keegan> https://i.imgur.com/tNqWB0Z.png
22:56:58 <keegan> I only consider the first 6 of these easily distinguished
22:57:06 <keegan> you could probably get better results if you vary more than one dimension
22:58:00 <keegan> the first 11 are pretty distinct except for the two greens
22:58:21 <nakilon> keegan yeah green look too similar (
22:58:55 <nakilon> even while people say the green part of spectre is the most wide for humans
23:02:35 <nakilon> keegan what color space was that? 5 and 8 look like having pretty different lightness
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23:15:24 <keegan> that's CSS hsl(h, 100%, 50%)
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23:18:05 <nakilon> sorrym I meant the "color model" term
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23:24:00 <keegan> here's an example output of a randomized, greedy algorithm https://i.imgur.com/5foY7ub.png
23:24:27 <keegan> for each row, we choose 1000 random candidate colors and pick the one that maximizes the minimum CIEDE2000 distance to any color previously picked
23:24:39 <keegan> (except that the first row is just a single randomly chosen color because there is nothing to compare to)
23:25:31 <keegan> I think this works pretty well. perhaps I should have it output a matrix of all permutations so you can see every color next to every other
23:31:19 <keegan> i'm sure there are smarter versions of this idea, you could use some optimization algorithm or maybe even an analytical solution to find the point in Lab space furthest from all others, instead of random sampling
23:34:00 <keegan> (whoops, had a bug, the initial "seed" color was not included at all, although i doubt this meaningfully changes the results)
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23:45:49 <nakilon> I never bothered implementing CIEDE2000
23:46:03 <keegan> neither did I ;) https://python-colormath.readthedocs.io/en/latest/delta_e.html
23:46:23 <nakilon> I usually use the euclidean distance in HSV bicone
23:47:36 <keegan> here's some code, it's kind of bad, but most code is https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/64c5ba09651238105442eb9cecccd7e8
23:48:29 <keegan> the first time i really dug into this color-distance stuff was for the much simpler question of "should this arbitrary bgcolor have white or black text"
23:48:38 <keegan> for which using CIEDE2000 is almost certainly overkill
23:48:43 <keegan> but i already had it here so i used it for that too :)
23:49:40 <nakilon> so your algorithm always takes the most far one from others?
23:49:57 <nakilon> such as would split the hue circle in 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc.
23:50:20 <keegan> but it's working in the 3-dimensional sRGB space and not just the hue space
23:50:50 <keegan> I decreased the number of candidates at each step to 100 for speed (it doesn't seem to affect results much)
23:51:17 <keegan> I think even without compromising the greedy, iterative nature of the algorithm you could be smarter
23:51:43 <keegan> for example allow each candidate to be "repelled" by the previously-picked color before fixing it in place and evaluating its distances
23:52:01 <keegan> then we would usually pick true black and true white, for example
23:52:29 <keegan> as written my code often picks some nearly-black and nearly-white colors which is obviously leaving some distance on the table
23:52:37 <nakilon> actually in my case I think I'd need to color the font and keep them all the same color background, black or white
23:53:22 <nakilon> so it won't allow all kind of colors, some would be too close to background one
23:53:38 <nakilon> but of course I could put the background into the count when algorithm selects another color
00:02:44 <keegan> you can also seed it with any fixed set of colors before generating new random ones
00:02:56 <keegan> like you might decide to do all the primary and secondary colors first
00:03:03 <keegan> and then generate random ones (which will tend to be less saturated)
00:03:11 <keegan> but so far I think I like the aesthetics of all-random the most
00:09:22 <esolangs> [[Flkl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83527&oldid=83524 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) /* Flkl programming language */ Remove needless BR tags
00:09:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * S1(210) * New user account
00:10:33 <keegan> it would be neat to pair a camera with a bunch of narrow-spectrum light sources that illuminate in quick succession
00:11:06 <keegan> then you could take a composite multispectral photograph of an object and see what it would look like in different forms of lighting
00:12:36 <fizzie> I think usually those systems use a bunch of band-pass filters instead?
00:12:49 <fizzie> Not sure where I've gotten that impression from though.
00:13:55 <fizzie> I guess it doesn't really make a difference whether you slap that filter in front of the light source or the sensor, if you're doing it with filters.
00:15:57 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapshot_hyperspectral_imaging I'm going to be stuck clicking on links forever, right?
00:18:25 <dcristofani> "don't attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity" is a bad rule. Because it is standard practice for malicious people to disguise their malice as stupidity; it's a fairly strong/easy/inexpensive layer of defense to add. Or as Blake put it, "Folly is the cloke of knavery".
00:20:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83528&oldid=83526 * S1(210) * (+362) /* Introductions */
00:22:11 <HackEso> logs? No such file or directory
00:22:15 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
00:22:30 <fizzie> Oh, that's not up to date.
00:23:07 <b_jonas> I mostly just want to see how many of those log the new channel
00:23:19 <b_jonas> /!\ this shouldn't appear in the old channel
00:23:31 <b_jonas> though some of the logs update slowly
00:24:09 <b_jonas> tunes seems to log the old channel
00:24:26 <fizzie> Well, codu.org stopped logging in 2016 and I think that GitHub repo also gave up earlier this year?
00:24:47 <fizzie> At least the last commit has the message "final update".
00:24:47 <b_jonas> and... um, kspalaiologos's logs seems to have stopped at 2021-02-07. and I haven't seen kspalaiologos recently.
00:26:18 <perlbot> b_jonas: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
00:26:22 <fizzie> I faintly remember something about GitHub changes making it less feasible.
00:26:35 <fizzie> But I might have imagined that.
00:26:38 <perlbot> b_jonas: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
00:26:50 <b_jonas> perlbot fact #esolangs logs
00:26:51 <perlbot> b_jonas: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
00:27:03 <b_jonas> why does it ignore the first word?
00:27:33 <fizzie> # makes it a comment? :) (Probably not.)
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00:28:11 <b_jonas> simcop has done a lot of changes to that bot since I worked with it, including lots of new features
00:28:26 <b_jonas> I'm not really in the loop of any of the new developments
00:31:18 <fizzie> I should probably restart esolangs, I've been doing a lot of refactoring and while it's still been working locally, I don't have enough test coverage to be confident that I didn't break anything, so "releasing" now would mean less work to trace what exactly did break.
00:31:26 <fizzie> Plus the latest change adds an (internal) RPC interface that can be used to watch incoming messages and send out new ones, which I was hoping to use to do that CertFP registration.
00:32:22 <zzo38> If I will set up a IRC channel, can the log system that esolangs IRC is using, be used? (No guarantee that it will not later be moved to a different system, though, such as my own one)
00:33:40 <fizzie> Mm, well, the bot supports multiple networks and channels better now than it used to, so I imagine it could.
00:35:15 <zzo38> If multiple instances are running and one becomes temporarily unavailable, is it possible to merge them once they become available again?
00:35:15 <fizzie> #go-nuts used to have the public channel logs over at https://freenode.logbot.info/ which decided to shut down, so now the channel is without logs. (Of course some people like it that way, which is fair enough.)
00:36:52 <fizzie> I haven't written any code specifically to do that. I think it can be a little tricky, because event ordering isn't exactly the same if the instances have connected to different (IRC) servers. Probably it can be done reasonably reliably though.
00:38:00 <fizzie> There is an IRCv3 specification to add a unique message ID tag, which would make that easier, but I don't think any network supports that (and nor does the bot).
00:39:14 <zzo38> I suppose there is also the consideration if the timestamps are missynchronized, although the time difference can easily be found by comparing the logs for the time that both instances were connected, in order to resynchronize the time stamps.
00:39:36 <simcop2387> b_jonas: you stumbled upon the syntax on how to ask for a specific channel's factoid namespace. since there isn't one for #esolangs it falls back to the default one, ##NULL
00:39:45 <simcop2387> one second i'll setup a factoid namespace for here to demo
00:40:02 <zzo38> (Although even then is the possibility that a message will be delayed for whatever reason)
00:41:16 <simcop2387> it's now got a seperate set of factoids just for you guys
00:41:58 <simcop2387> perlbot: hi is Welcome to #esolangs. The liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation!
00:41:58 <perlbot> simcop2387: Stored hi is Welcome to #esolangs. The liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation!
00:42:20 <simcop2387> https://factoids.perl.bot/libera.chat/%23esolangs/list now shows all the factoids here
00:42:48 <simcop2387> i can *also* tell it that you want your own namespace but to recurse down into the old default namespace so that you can override anything too
00:46:28 <simcop2387> in fact that's what i'm going to do now
00:46:56 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [hi]
00:47:23 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [hi]
00:51:04 <simcop2387> ok i don't remember how to set that up offhand because i don't do it often hold on
00:59:36 <perlbot> simcop2387: Welcome to #esolangs. The liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation!
00:59:41 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [hi]
01:01:17 <simcop2387> b_jonas: alright now it's properly set up. you can set and override any factoids in here and it won't affect other channels. so you can in fact do:
01:01:30 <simcop2387> perlbot: logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:01:30 <perlbot> simcop2387: Stored logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:02:52 <simcop2387> but all the previous factoids that the bot has from #perl et al are still available and will fall back. this then also introduces the difference between the "forget" and "delete" commands for the bot. forget will make it not respond to a factoid, regardless of if the factoid exists in the fallback, delete will just get rid of the version of it here
01:03:08 <perlbot> simcop2387: #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:03:16 <perlbot> simcop2387: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
01:03:28 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [log] [loc] [.lc] [lc] [.lk] [lk] [.ls] [lex] [lhc] [lhs]
01:03:36 <perlbot> simcop2387: Deleted logs from libera.chat:#esolangs
01:03:41 <perlbot> simcop2387: Mojo::Log for minimalism, Log4perl for maximum overkill, Log::Any for anything in between | Log::Dispatch, Log::Dispatchouli, Log::Contextual
01:03:52 <simcop2387> perlbot: logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:03:53 <perlbot> simcop2387: Stored logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:06:42 <simcop2387> you can thank digitok from #regex for begging for that ability a few years ago
01:07:53 <simcop2387> and then last year i improved it significantly to be able to do the recursion through multiple namespaces so that i could safely put the bot on discord and matrix without it affecting irc at all
01:10:02 <simcop2387> but the point is now, you guys can have all your own factoids and not worry about breaking anyone else
01:10:22 <simcop2387> it's also possible to get the bot to respond to just a string like "!logs"
01:10:54 <HackEso> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
01:11:51 <simcop2387> so, "forget" will make the bot not respond to something, and "delete" removes the change you've made in your namespace here, so you can go back to the fallback if you want.
01:12:27 <lambdabot> LOWI 280050Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 FEW060 SCT070 06/05 Q1023
01:12:57 <int-e> simcop2387: noone minds I guess, just don't expect it to see much use
01:13:24 <simcop2387> b_jonas: was wanting to use it so i figured i'd give a proper explination of how to use it :)
01:23:04 <fizzie> Heh, since we were talking about QUIC the other day -- turns out the QUIC RFC just got published, and it got a nice round number: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9000
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01:39:14 <perlbot> nakilon: Deleted logs from libera.chat:#esolangs
01:40:11 <nakilon> I'll add it to velik's cron
01:41:18 <nakilon> perlbot: logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:41:18 <perlbot> nakilon: Stored logs is #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/
01:41:48 <nakilon> at first I thought it's really deleting logs
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01:44:19 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83529 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+105) Created page with "'''Undefined behavior''' is a language where everything is undefined. Literally. '''There is no spec.'''"
01:47:09 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83530&oldid=83502 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+144)
01:55:30 <mnrmnaugh> what the fuck is this shit. oi, needs more colors and underline
02:01:35 <HackEso> mnrmnaugh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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02:22:21 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83531&oldid=72984 * Zzo38 * (+1)
02:22:48 <mnrmnaugh> orly. oi, i keep meaning to join dal
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02:44:03 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83532&oldid=83529 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+556)
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02:51:39 <esolangs> [[Flkl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83533&oldid=83527 * Razetime * (+105)
03:01:38 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> I suppose there is also the consideration if the timestamps are missynchronized, although the time difference can easily be found by comparing the logs for the time that both instances were connected" => it's more complicated than that, because connections from different servers can see messages in different order too, because they originate in different servers in the server tree structure
03:03:07 <b_jonas> simcop2387: ah, so now learning factoids here defaults to the #esolangs namespace. thanks.
03:04:13 <simcop2387> yep, so you can go nuts and change anything you want without worrying about affecting #perl or me
03:05:13 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
03:14:37 <nakilon> salpynx this reminded me your seeding thing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Polynomial
03:16:58 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83534&oldid=83532 * Nakilon * (+86) categories
03:19:35 <nakilon> hm, since there is the "unusable for programming" category it's possible to see if languages become less or more usable in average over years
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03:27:48 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83535&oldid=83470 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+27) Recategorization) ("Toggle" prove its self-modifying
03:28:29 <nakilon> wow, Spreadheet automatically made a range for me https://i.imgur.com/bVW4YH7.png
03:34:47 <nakilon> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19o7VNgs1iKZdBvp9t6-oMlKj1H5vKHnK3GDz82QMLdg/edit?usp=sharing
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03:44:05 <nakilon> isn't the "Output only" a subcategory for "Unusable for programming"?
03:46:30 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83536&oldid=59482 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+188) Added formatting help link. Also "Hi, mom" may be considered offensive although it is a popular movie name
03:52:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83537&oldid=83506 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+97)
03:53:19 <nakilon> for a moment I didn't realise that this https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ColorfulGalaxy_(disambiguation) is a user account, different from https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ColorfulGalaxy
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04:00:45 <esolangs> [[Wutlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83538&oldid=66121 * Me4502 * (+31) Update name
04:18:46 <zzo38> It depends on what programming
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07:06:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83539&oldid=82856 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+154)
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07:08:38 <keegan> an interesting thing about my color picking algorithm is that you can substitute any distance metric
07:09:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83540&oldid=83537 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+46)
07:09:28 <keegan> for example this version is picking colors that are supposedly distinguishable by someone with deuteranopia (red-green colorblindness) https://i.imgur.com/7Ntu3c1.png
07:09:46 <keegan> based on code i cribbed from here https://github.com/joergdietrich/daltonize
07:10:28 <keegan> the left column is the actual picked color, the right column supposedly shows to a person with normal color vision how it would look for someone with r-g colorblindness
07:10:33 <int-e> keegan: indistinguishable?
07:10:58 <keegan> perhaps if anyone here is colorblind they can tell me if the algorithm does a good job (not that i'm using it for anything, but i'm curious)
07:11:16 <int-e> sorry, that explanation of the columns resolved my confusion
07:11:43 <keegan> yeah it would have been clearer if you were around for the earlier convo between me and nakilon
07:11:50 <int-e> Because I was looking at the pairs and was wondering why a colorblind person would see a difference between left and right :)
07:12:49 <keegan> the original goal is to pick n colors distinguishable from each other, and allow the user to increase n without redoing the earlier picks
07:13:11 <int-e> (I know "colorblind" is technically wrong. But it's a convenient and common term.)
07:13:16 <Sgeo> I probably mentioned it before, but this change broke GrainFimple: https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BF-RLE&diff=57737&oldid=25359
07:13:41 <keegan> i do this by, for each row, generating a bunch of random candidate colors, and picking the one that maximizes the minimum distance to any of the previous ones
07:13:53 <Sgeo> (probably just need to clarify on GrainFimple's page)
07:13:57 <keegan> where the distance metric is CIEDE2000
07:15:35 <keegan> and so now i've modified it to use a distance metric that simulates deuteranopia
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11:25:25 <nakilon> I wish I could provide you a distance formula that I usually use but I always restore it from scratch
11:27:25 <nakilon> also can't find it right now because I update OS after 650 days of uptime and it already took like 10 reboots and I'm not sure that it's not dead _<>
11:39:01 <salpynx> I was today years old when I learned that deuteranopia meant r/g colour blindness, and wasn't just a play on words for an Aeon Flux episode title: Utopia or Deuteranopia, and that title is twice as clever as clever as I ever thought it was.
11:39:34 <salpynx> Can't believe that skipped my knowledge in general, or in the specific
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11:41:26 <HackEso> Being clever is different from being wise, but they are indistinguishable in sufficiently large quantities.
11:51:29 <esolangs> [[User:Salmmanfred]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83541 * Salmmanfred * (+19) Created page with "Creator of [[Flkl]]"
11:55:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83542&oldid=83473 * Salmmanfred * (+11) /* F */
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12:31:47 <arseniiv> <nakilon> you can take the 360 Hue circle and split it evenly => btw better to use hue from CIEL*h*c* or how was it called, the one based on CIEL*a*b*. When that’s too many calculations, CIEL*u*v*-based hue should be still better than hue based on sRGB
12:34:47 <arseniiv> (they named their variables starred for some reason)
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12:43:20 <nakilon> arseniiv I "love" that Luma Lightness and L...something-else are all different things
12:43:40 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83543&oldid=83534 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) Fix headers
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12:46:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83544&oldid=83540 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) ,
12:46:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83545&oldid=83544 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) ;
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13:03:23 <fizzie> If you don't know how many colors you need in advance (and don't want to reassign already used ones), there's also that trick where you take the integers in order, then reverse the bits (from the highest set one) and tack a 0. in front, and use the resulting binary fraction as your hue.
13:03:29 <fizzie> 0; 1; 10, 11; 100, 101, 110, 111; ... => 0.0; 0.1; 0.01, 0.11; 0.001, 0.101, 0.011, 0.111; ... => decimal 0.0; 0.5; 0.25, 0.75; 0.125, 0.625, 0.375, 0.875; ... => degrees 0; 180; 90, 270; 45, 225, 135, 315; ...
13:03:36 <fizzie> It's not as optimal as an even split (except when the eventual number of colors is a power of two), and can't as neatly account for an arbitrary distance metric as shachaf's randomized thing, but it's also easy to do and you can compute the N'th color directly.
13:03:42 <fizzie> (I imagine there's probably other ways of generating that sequence than reversing bits.)
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13:17:58 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83546&oldid=82945 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* General languages */ UB (language)
13:18:38 <nakilon> I guess it can be found on OEIS
13:19:04 <nakilon> if tyour copypaste is correct
13:19:08 <fizzie> I guess another way of expressing that would be "rotate the highest set bit to the bottom and divide by the value of the bit above it", since finding the MSB can be easier than reversing. (You get the numbers in a slightly different order though; each trip around the circle will be in the natural order.)
13:19:34 <nakilon> oh wait, they are encoded as two numbers
13:20:04 <fizzie> It's not exactly an "integer" sequence, yeah. But I'm sure it's in there in some form.
13:21:45 <fizzie> I mean, the divisor is just 1, 2, 4, 4, 8, 8, 8, 8, ... which is definitely in. And the other one would be... 0, 1, 1, 3, 1, 3, 5, 7, which is pretty trivial too.
13:21:48 <b_jonas> my problem with this is that the theoretical considerations are not too motivated by the original problem of choosing colors, because you almost always want to choose only a very small palette, and then you can probably throw out all those theoretical optimization algorithms and you're going to handpick them and even take into account your company's color scheme or mnemonics or traditional political
13:22:14 <nakilon> https://oeis.org/search?q=1%2C+1%2C+3%2C+1%2C+5%2C+3%2C+7&sort=&language=&go=Search
13:22:17 <fizzie> Fair, although I liked shachaf's randomized algorithm a lot, and think it might even have some plausible use cases.
13:22:23 <nakilon> https://oeis.org/search?q=2%2C+4%2C+4%2C+8%2C+8%2C+8%2C+8&sort=&language=&go=Search
13:22:32 <b_jonas> or flags and traditional sportsball jersey colors
13:23:26 <b_jonas> and the colors might also depend on what technology you use to show them, eg. show on TFT monitor, print in a newspaper chart in RGB, print on a product or ad with spot colors, make plastic LEGO bricks from them etc
13:24:10 <b_jonas> if you want to make shirts, your domain probably isn't a monitor's RGB range
13:24:14 <nakilon> Numerator of n/2^(n-1). - Alexander Adamchuk, Feb 11 2005
13:25:43 <nakilon> doesn't look like n/2^(n-1)
13:32:23 <Taneb> nakilon: shachaf is not normally keegan but I think in this case fizzie might be mixed upo
13:36:09 <nakilon> looks like there is no formula
13:36:39 <nakilon> either a(n) = a(n/2).... or gcd()
14:04:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Huanying04 * New user account
14:07:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83547&oldid=83528 * Huanying04 * (+139) /* Introductions */
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14:19:40 <esolangs> [[PUBERTY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83548&oldid=83498 * Not applicable * (-124) Undo revision 83498 by [[Special:Contributions/RanibowSprimkle64|RanibowSprimkle64]] ([[User talk:RanibowSprimkle64|talk]]) please dont use the page itself for discussions, use [[Talk:PUBERTY]] instead
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14:38:47 <fizzie> Taneb: I get those two mixed up all the time for some reason. I think they must hash to the same bucket in my brain or something.
14:39:38 <fizzie> I had exactly the same problem with two people back at the university, I just couldn't keep them apart even though they weren't all that much alike.
14:42:44 <Taneb> fizzie: they hash to the same colour in my IRC client
14:56:03 <fizzie> Re the other thing, the A006257 version (the one that goes 1, 3, 5, 7 instead of 1, 5, 3, 7) has a(n) = 2*(n - 2^floor(log_2(n))) + 1 as a formula, which makes sense, because it's the "write in binary and rotate by 1" thing.
14:56:10 <fizzie> And A072383 (the denominator) is d(n) = 2^floor(log_2(n)+1), which also makes sense.
14:56:15 <fizzie> So the whole thing put together is (2*(n - 2^floor(log_2(n))) + 1) / 2^floor(log_2(n)+1), simplifications left as an exercise to the reader.
14:56:20 <fizzie> > let flr = fromInteger . floor in take 16 $ (\n -> (2 * (n - 2**(flr . logBase 2 $ n)) + 1) / 2**(flr (logBase 2 n + 1))) <$> [1..]
14:56:22 <lambdabot> [0.5,0.25,0.75,0.125,0.375,0.625,0.875,6.25e-2,0.1875,0.3125,0.4375,0.5625,0...
14:57:51 <nakilon> so initial copypoasta was wrong?
14:59:07 <fizzie> Depends on how exactly you mean. The one you searched for matched my initial reverse-bits description, I think.
14:59:33 <fizzie> In any case, it's the same numbers just in a different order.
15:00:22 <nakilon> yeah, the same within the denominator buckets
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15:04:53 <fizzie> If you use a branch as a "marker" for a commit that has some special meaning (like it's the version you've currently got running somewhere), is there a convenient way to move that to a different commit without checking the branch out? Hmm, I guess git update-ref, but that feels pretty low-level.
15:08:35 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83549 * S1(210) * (+119) Created page with "Hi, I'm Andrew, a programmer and college student. As of yet my only work on this site is with my language [[deBruijn]]"
15:09:56 <nakilon> you are probably more supposed to use tag, not branch
15:10:13 <nakilon> then it's trivial -- locally retag another commit and push --force --tags
15:11:04 <nakilon> https://stackoverflow.com/a/46289900/322020 IIRC it pushes only tags, not the current branch
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15:28:39 <fizzie> Maybe, it just feels odd to use a --force flag to do a "normal" operation.
15:28:59 <fizzie> I mean, apart from the pushing part (I might keep this entirely local), you need --force to replace an existing tag.
15:30:49 <fizzie> Also, with a branch there would be a reflog, which kind of sounds nice as a built-in record of where it's been.
15:31:03 <fizzie> (Though apparently you can create a reflog for a tag as well.)
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15:48:35 <nakilon> maybe you mean it's always --ff when you move that thing?
15:48:48 <nakilon> then it would be a branch, yeah
15:50:51 <nakilon> you might consider using some web interface if it's a marker that you don't usually use and just keep it for a case
15:52:11 <nakilon> for example, it two companies where I worked there was a "master" branch that was a marker of "what is now in prod"
15:52:33 <nakilon> (personally I would just use tags like you do it for software releases)
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15:53:38 <nakilon> so no one was actually supposed to "git checkout master" so we did it via web interface of gitlab/github
15:55:06 <nakilon> the only problem is that you can't merge an arbitrary commit in web interface, only HEAD, so I used API to create a temporary branch, then merge, then delete it
16:08:55 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> I had exactly the same problem with two people back at the university" => yeah, that happens sometimes. sometimes the has fingerprints that I use to identify people have collisions. It can be somewhat socially uncomfortable.
16:11:04 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Also, with a branch there would be a reflog" => wait, tags don't have a reflog by default?
16:11:25 <fizzie> That's what the documentation seemed to imply.
16:11:38 <fizzie> --create-reflog "Create a reflog for the tag. To globally enable reflogs for tags, see core.logAllRefUpdates in git-config(1)."
16:12:35 <b_jonas> that said, make sure you're familiar with git workspace, which lets you check out multiple workspaces from the same repository, and then you can independently switch them to different branches
16:13:04 <b_jonas> then, even though you have to check out the branch, you at least don't have to lose whatever you have checked out in your main workspace
16:13:12 <fizzie> For the record, I did go with a tag (and a reflog, not that I expect to look at it) for the marker.
16:13:47 <b_jonas> and apparently it's called git worktree , not git workspace
16:16:47 <fizzie> I use worktrees for my config file repository, it's got a separate branch called `dist` that only has the stock configuration files straight from the .debs, and whenever I upgrade a package and it does that "this config file was locally edited" thing, I just copy the new dist file into the checked-out dist branch and make a new commit, then (in the main worktree) merge it into the branch that has all the
16:16:52 <nakilon> I just git clone in different directories if you mean that
16:16:53 <fizzie> local changes in it, so that git can do a proper three-way merge.
16:17:24 <fizzie> Nah, worktree is different from an independent clone.
16:17:49 <fizzie> It's basically just a second checked-out working tree from the same repository.
16:20:09 <b_jonas> yep, the multiple worktrees share the same namespace of tags and branches
16:20:38 <b_jonas> they also share storage space but you can partly do that in a clone with that option that uses hardlinks or something
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16:48:28 <arseniiv> nakilon: also luminance and I think we forgot some more
16:50:32 <arseniiv> now I think I saw somewhere an article which used IIRC Poisson disc sampling (with decreasing radius) to make unique colors, taking all dimensions beside hue into account (through ΔE)
16:50:45 <arseniiv> hm if I could only remember where I saw that at all
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17:17:16 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83550 * S1(210) * (+4309) created page
17:25:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 2000gmod * New user account
17:26:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hypocritical * New user account
17:29:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83551&oldid=83547 * 2000gmod * (+86)
17:30:08 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83552&oldid=83542 * S1(210) * (+15) /* D */ added DeBruijn
17:30:16 <fizzie> <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> is a pretty odd way of signing your comment.
17:37:14 <arseniiv> btw dear esotericians do you for some reason know who and where to ask what is a good price for a melodica (a harmonica-like instrument with keyboard and IMO more mellow timbres on average) for an amateur (like me) but who doesn’t want to end up upgrading to another one later (so, decent construction and sound etc.) as I’m afraid “beginner’s” might be too low a bar for this use case
17:37:16 <fizzie> Oh, right, maybe they were reading the instructions in the *source*, where it obviously has to be written that way.
17:38:14 <arseniiv> or better a guide about melodicas. Though right, this one I may at least try googling myself. Hopefully that’d clear matters
17:39:08 <fizzie> I do have an acquaintance who plays one, but I don't think they're doing IRC at all frequently. I might as well copy-paste that question to a dead channel we have in common, though.
17:40:35 <nakilon> I think of making this "IDE" universal
17:40:44 <arseniiv> I’m a bit conflicted that English texts are usually better for various advices on many things, whereas you may end up with none in Russian, but then they may usually assume you live in an English-speaking country and “localized” parts of advice would be of no use. That’s lame, Earth
17:41:01 <fizzie> Favourite story: was walking through a train station underpass once, and heard someone play the Monkey Island theme tune on a melodica; mentioned that to my friendquaintance later, and turns out they were the person doing the playing.
17:41:19 <nakilon> so you configure it to launch a specified fungeoid interpreter and that interpreter should support the input format that is not just plain code but annotated
17:41:53 <immibis> an IDE designed primarily for universal language support?
17:42:04 <nakilon> then the IDE waits the configured amount of time for a case if the interpreter subprocess hangs, and if ok it prints the results with debug data somehow
17:42:56 <immibis> can't have a fungeoid interpreter without a debugger where you can watch the turtle run around the program
17:43:04 <fizzie> "immibis for fungeoids" sounds like a political slogan. Vote immibis, they're all for fungeoids.
17:43:24 <arseniiv> <fizzie> I might as well copy-paste that question to a dead channel we have in common, though. => I’ll be glad for that! And relay I wish them good fun with their instrument, if you may
17:43:46 <nakilon> arseniiv not my fav thing to say out loud but Russians don't think they are supposed to help each other (and lets pretend it's only in the internet)
17:44:04 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Favourite story: was walking through a train station underpass once, and heard someone play the Monkey Island theme tune on a melodica; mentioned that to my friendquaintance later, and turns out they were the person doing the playing. => haha
17:44:48 <fizzie> The set of people likely to be found playing the Monkey Island theme tune on a melodica in a train station underpass (in Finland) probably isn't huge, anyway.
17:44:54 <nakilon> I showed someone a wiki diff recently and he said "I don't get it" because he never saw a wiki diff, and never edited anything in the internet at all -- they use it just like a public toilet that they never flush
17:45:30 <arseniiv> nakilon: oh I mostly agree. Many communities are a high level of toxicity :( we know
17:45:57 <nakilon> immibis for a start I won't be a real time debugger -- only one message to send and one message to get per program execution
17:47:45 <nakilon> arseniiv they are unhelpful not because they hate you but because they are just raised like that
17:48:13 <nakilon> with no feeling that they aren't the center of the universe and the only conscious specie here
17:48:22 <arseniiv> I’m glad I closed the door on one forum lately. That was the last forum I was a regular on. Sucks both ways, there were infrequent fruitful math discussions but it just doesn’t work as a whole. Politics etc., meh. Casino effect made it hard to leave for good but now I’m free and if something I can entertain myself on math.SE or that other one SE site on maths
17:48:50 <arseniiv> nakilon: yep, I could have ended up almost the same
17:50:43 <arseniiv> I just found a group of people who are very nice to each other in the end (not this one) and we chat together about everything and that’s warm and I can rant about linear algebra and someone might even try to read and that’s nice. I’ll indoctrinate them into my view of maths mwahaha
17:51:20 <nakilon> "for a start I won't be a real time debugger" -- IT won't be a, not I won't be of course...
17:51:40 <fizzie> I won't be a real-time debugger, I have to sleep every now and then.
17:54:30 <arseniiv> nakilon: IDK how it’s usually called but it’s more or less believed that if the brain sees some pleasing things randomly while doing something, then it could see them with very low probability and still want to do that general thing, no matter how fruitless it might be overall. Like turning the hand of the slot machine or browsing the social feed or watching random funny cat videos on youtubes (hail gods I don’t do the last two at all; I still fi
17:54:30 <arseniiv> nd time for other timesinks like occasional minecraft or binge reading until sunrise)
17:55:21 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83553&oldid=83550 * S1(210) * (+56) /* Print some numeral 0 through 9 */
17:55:28 <arseniiv> IIRC that’s related to something something dopamine intoxication
17:55:34 <nakilon> that's called a hope I guess
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17:56:03 <arseniiv> you just scroll and scroll, or push and push, or something, even if it’s toxic etc.
17:56:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83554&oldid=83551 * Fizzie * (+108) Clarify signature instructions.
17:56:17 <nakilon> then it's a procrastination ..D
17:56:58 <arseniiv> neither by default, nor most of the time. Procrastination is a super-how-it’s called of that, I guess. It can be more fruitful
17:57:37 <b_jonas> if you want more than a few random points in a space with normal Euclidean metric, https://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/doc/html/qrng.html might help, though I never tested it. but if you just want few points, like for a color scheme, then you'll want to pick colors from the edges of the color space, like completely saturated or completely bright colors, so unless you use something too simple like RGB
17:57:39 <arseniiv> it might have a value of its own (though unrelated to what you have to do instead of procrastinating)
17:57:43 <b_jonas> distance as your metric, something like that won't be enough.
17:58:07 <arseniiv> hm didn’t seem like that :) if so you caught me
17:58:31 <arseniiv> I’m very trollable because of my strong presupposition of sincerity
17:58:50 <arseniiv> though in the end I learn and end up bitter to offending people :P
18:00:05 <arseniiv> BTW a real-time debugger for fungeoids would be rad
18:00:06 <b_jonas> ah, so that's a harmonica without the bellow, blown with your lungs and mouth?
18:00:25 <arseniiv> b_jonas: so is a regular harmonica? :D
18:00:40 <nakilon> it will be an annotator, a unique thing
18:00:46 <arseniiv> well, not glass harmonica but that’s not a harmonica
18:00:51 <nakilon> maybe it's how I should call it actually
18:02:35 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83555 * 2000gmod * (+986) Created page with "'''BrainfOOP''' (also known as BrainFOOP, Brain-Foop, BFOOP or simply Brainfoop) is a variant of [[Brainfuck]] that implements object-oriented programming (OOP) to Brainfuck...."
18:02:36 <nakilon> wow 100% discount https://store.steampowered.com/app/424840/Little_Nightmares/ I saw this game on youtube
18:05:29 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ok, but harmonica makes me think of the instrument with a bellow and keyboard by default
18:05:38 <arseniiv> b_jonas: BTW if Hungarian words for harmonica and some accordion-like instruments are similar, the Russian situation is the same, harmonica is essentially “mouth <little>accordion” where accordion is not the accordion
18:06:02 <arseniiv> yeah! I think English here has some historical shenanigans to end up the way it did
18:06:03 <b_jonas> yes, it might be a language difference
18:06:30 <arseniiv> ending up with “harmonica” for exclusively the mouth variant
18:07:39 <b_jonas> ok, but does harmonica at least refer only to the ones with a keyboard?
18:07:52 <nakilon> I always forget all that thing about accordeons
18:08:20 <nakilon> there are even three words - аккордеон гармонь баян
18:08:23 <arseniiv> also a proper melodica has a tube to connect the mouth with the instrument body, and I think it should be able to open for cleaning (at least one guy in yt video claimed they all do open and showed how he cleaned his one)
18:08:58 <arseniiv> b_jonas: English harmonica is just with holes to blow into and no more, and melodica should be the one with keus
18:09:10 <arseniiv> I seem to be Greek today, keys*
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18:10:12 <b_jonas> ok, but then what is a mouth organ?
18:10:23 <arseniiv> nakilon: one of ABBYY dictionaries I have installed says баян is called “button accordion”, seems logical enough, but then it gives “accordion” to both of the others, welll
18:10:43 <arseniiv> b_jonas: that’s synonymous with harmonica
18:11:03 <b_jonas> and the one with a bellow but no keyboard is a bagpipe, right?
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18:12:41 <arseniiv> hm I didn’t thought they were that related before. Though bagpipe should be not a reed-something-phone so they’re not that close
18:13:08 <arseniiv> to be fair I don’t know if its pipes are woodwind-type or what
18:13:46 <nakilon> that scot instrument is волынка that is violin in english but it's not a violin, it's all messed...'
18:20:13 <fizzie> The instrument that's en:accordion is fi:haitari, a word which is used literally for that instrument, but figuratively also for any kind of range of values some fluctuating quantity could be in, like a price range. I think the intuition is, you stretch and squeeze an accordion, so it sort of defines a range. (We also have the word fi:harmonikka for the instrument, which is pretty clearly of Russian
18:22:27 <fizzie> As for en:harmonica, that's fi:huuliharppu, which literally translates as "lip harp".
18:23:01 <nakilon> article says these are harmonics https://pop-music.ru/upload/medialibrary/f11/f11b058e30f5e11af495e0dcc60093ca.png
18:23:19 <nakilon> and these are accordeon and bayan https://pop-music.ru/upload/medialibrary/787/7870651f091867dc791d16009cae56b8.png
18:23:47 <shachaf> And chromatic button accordions more generally.
18:24:33 <shachaf> I was secretly hoping the Russian word for accordion would use a ё.
18:25:44 <fizzie> nakilon: The first one in your first link is I think a "harmonium" in English.
18:26:34 <nakilon> wikipedia says " keyboard aerophone (G. Handharmonika)"
18:27:27 <fizzie> There's also that thing called a glass harmonica, which is a pretty weird-looking one.
18:28:19 <int-e> IIRC ё is usually written as е anyway. Ешик is the example I recall.
18:29:43 <int-e> It's been decades though :P
18:30:30 <fizzie> https://coimages.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/images/27/528/medium_E2011_130_9__0001_.jpg <- and this thing, which AIUI is called a Crystal Palace. ;)
18:30:46 <fizzie> But maybe it doesn't count as a kind of an instrument when there's only the one.
18:30:48 <int-e> err. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%91%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%BA
18:31:14 <int-e> mixing up ш and ж is not good.
18:34:05 <int-e> It's particularly bad because that word is a mnemonic for the letter "ж" which looks a bit hedgehog-like.
18:34:25 <shachaf> I also like cats. My neighbor has a friendly cat.
18:34:38 <HackEso> cat: cat: No such file or directory
18:35:00 <HackEso> cat: ../cat: No such file or directory
18:35:12 <int-e> okay. that one did exist at some point
18:35:24 <HackEso> 7886:2016-05-06 <shachäf> ` mv cat junk \ 5779:2015-07-02 <int-̈e> ` sed -i \'s/$/ >^.^</\' cat \ 3768:2013-09-16 <Rouj̈o> cp oerjan/cat cat \ 3767:2013-09-16 <Rouj̈o> rm cat \ 3729:2013-09-11 <Rouj̈o> mv oerjan/cat cat \ 3727:2013-09-11 <oerjän> rm cat \ 3694:2013-09-10 <Rouj̈o> cat run > cat \ 3693:2013-09-10 <Rouj̈o> cat run | echo > cat \ 3692:2013-09-10 <Rouj̈o> mv cat run \ 3691:2013-09-10 <Rouj̈o> echo Meow~~ > cat \ 3690:2013-09-10 <Ro
18:35:34 <nakilon> Ешик sounds like some jew name
18:35:36 <fizzie> I saw a hedgehog snuffling around in the back garden / parking lot of the place we were renting before a couple of times.
18:35:44 <HackEso> cat: ../junk/cat: No such file or directory
18:35:51 <HackEso> cat: ../junk: No such file or directory
18:36:03 <HackEso> 7906:2016-05-07 <oerjän> ` mv junk/cat emoticons \ 7886:2016-05-06 <shachäf> ` mv cat junk
18:36:23 <HackEso> 10388:2017-03-10 <oerjän> mk emoticons/window//1+1 \ 10104:2017-01-07 <tsweẗt> echo \'\xc2\xaf\\_(\xe3\x83\x84)_/\xc2\xaf\' > emoticons/shrug2 \ 7906:2016-05-07 <oerjän> ` mv junk/cat emoticons \ 7905:2016-05-07 <oerjän> ` mv junk/:-D emoticons \ 5738:2015-06-25 <tsweẗt> echo \'\xe3\x83\xbc\xe3\x83\xbc\xe8\x9f\xb2\xe8\x9f\xb2\' > emoticons/swatter \ 5708:2015-06-24 <oren̈_> ` echo \xe5\x87\xb8 >emoticons/flipbird \ 5707:2015-06-24 <oren̈_> ` ec
18:36:30 <int-e> `cat ../emoticons/cat
18:36:46 <int-e> Some turbulent history there...
18:36:57 <HackEso> Why are you taking Polly down into the mine? Polly's a parrot, not a canary! And where's my cracker?
18:36:58 <nakilon> actually Ёж is the word kids are taught when they learn the alphabet
18:37:09 <fizzie> I was expecting something about cats in the canary.
18:37:33 <nakilon> https://static.my-shop.ru/product/3/268/2679778.jpg
18:38:00 <int-e> nakilon: I did learn it as a foreign language. But yeah, not sure why we learned the diminuative (that is what it is, right?).
18:38:45 <int-e> I also forgot most of it... but some small details still stick around.
18:38:52 <fizzie> int-e: To be fair, they're generally pretty small.
18:38:55 <nakilon> also fir (Ёлка) sometimes as you can see https://www.sunnytoy.ru/i/product_i/649_4_b.jpg
18:39:23 <nakilon> int-e yeah, the base form is еж
18:39:26 <int-e> fizzie: I know. I actually see one on occasion when going for a walk at night around here.
18:39:46 <nakilon> it's like... when you are kid you are suppose to speak in kinds words to everything around you and use the word ежик
18:40:06 <nakilon> it's like киса instead of кошка for a female cat
18:40:18 <nakilon> or котик instead of кот for male
18:40:47 <fizzie> Heh, "kissa" is the standard Finnish word for an adult cat of any gender.
18:41:16 <nakilon> we say kis-kis to call a cat
18:41:55 <shachaf> I'm told "kissa" was my first word.
18:42:21 <shachaf> Though it was probably a stretch to interpret it that way.
18:43:18 <int-e> hmm, funny, I can't think of a phrase like "come here, kitty-kitty" in german.
18:43:43 <shachaf> Wait, are "kissa" and "kitty" cognates?
18:44:31 <Taneb> Cybernetics and governor are cognate
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18:45:10 <int-e> https://www.etymonline.com/word/kitty relates kitty to Catherine
18:45:11 <shachaf> Spot of the cybernetics, governor?
18:46:21 <fizzie> I don't know why, but there's something I find really amusing about Wiktionary's laconic image subtitles. Like the one at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kitten
18:46:33 <fizzie> I mean, it makes sense, it's just there to illustrate the word.
18:46:52 <fizzie> But still. At least it doesn't have a "Fig. 1" in front.
18:47:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Anticubex * New user account
18:47:22 <int-e> fizzie: what did you expect? "A kitten held hostage"? :-P
18:47:36 <shachaf> Wait, that kitten is so cute.
18:48:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: comes with the medium. in a paper dictionary most of the illustrations will have multiple things labelled in it to illustrate multiple words, and there are fewer illustrations in first place
18:48:26 <fizzie> I happened by the university library once, and on the table where they have new issues of journals, they had a maths journal of some kind, where somewhere pretty early on (inside front cover?) there was a fascinating picture of some kind of a graph, subtitled with: "Fig. 1: A fascinating picture."
18:48:30 <HackEso> Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
18:49:30 <int-e> fizzie: heh. did you read the paper though? ;-)
18:50:04 <nakilon> кот кошка (rus) кiт кiшка (ukr), then the wiktionary says that in Czhe and Pol it's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Sorbian_language and is "kot" that is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin " cattus "
18:51:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83556&oldid=83554 * Anticubex * (+155) /* Introductions */
18:52:20 <fizzie> int-e: I think I skimmed it, but no recollection. Also, I tried to search for that subtitle now, but aside from a few cases of "-- when blah blah (Fig. 1), a fascinating picture emerges --", the only hits were: https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2019-03-07.html#lEb -- https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2013-01-23.html#lFj -- https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2008-11-03.html#lvb
18:52:23 <int-e> I suspect the proprer way to attract a cat here is something like "na du?" which is close to the friendly version of "hey there!", perhaps. Nothing specific to cats comes to my mind. "Katze" is not very friendly sounding because of the tz.
18:52:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dominicentek * New user account
18:52:43 <fizzie> So this has been the fourth time I've mentioned it on-channel, and I'm never going to get any closer to actually finding what it was about.
18:53:31 <nakilon> also it says that it's wrong to assume it's from goth "katts" greek "κάττα" and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German "katt" while from the vulgar latin it came to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_language as "*kotъ"
18:56:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83557&oldid=83556 * Dominicentek * (+184) /* Introductions */
18:56:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83558&oldid=83557 * Dominicentek * (+94) /* Introductions */
18:57:41 <esolangs> [[Flkl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83559&oldid=83533 * Salmmanfred * (-6659)
19:01:28 <nakilon> so since wikipedia says the name Katherine is from "Greek adjective καθαρός (katharos), meaning "pure"" then if "katharos" is the same as "κάττα" (and idk, have no clue in greek) then either there is something wrong or there is a connection between "greek" and "vulgar latin" that is missing in these articles
19:01:51 <nakilon> oh wait https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CF%84%CF%84%CE%B1 : Etymology Unknown but clearly related to Latin cattus (“cat”).
19:04:24 <nakilon> wait, but ru wiktionary says "it can't be from green katta because there it is known only since VI"... I'm lost ..D
19:05:24 <nakilon> maybe it means it was in latin and from there went to other languages separately
19:07:13 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83560&oldid=83555 * 2000gmod * (+327)
19:08:00 <b_jonas> do all those come from an Egyptian word in first place?
19:10:12 <nakilon> but again in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cattus#Latin it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Uralic_language "*käďwä (“female (of a fur animal)”) -- here I'm already not sure about the "w" letter and it links to some hungary website that I don't understand at all http://uralonet.nytud.hu/eintrag.cgi?locale=en_GB&id_eintrag=222
19:11:15 <nakilon> b_jonas didn't hear any evidence of egyptians move to Ural ..D
19:15:35 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Uralic_homeland
19:16:29 <b_jonas> nakilon: no, I mean borrowed through ancient greek to other languages
19:16:48 <b_jonas> nakilon: like ancient romans mets cats in Egypt, and perhaps took their name from them
19:19:21 <nakilon> this states 3000 BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats_in_ancient_Egypt
19:20:15 <nakilon> this 7000-2000 BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Uralic_language
19:20:54 <shachaf> Man, can you believe people have liked cats for thousands of years?
19:20:57 <nakilon> but we can't know when did the word appear because they probably didn't write much
19:21:23 <shachaf> Cats have just been around, doing their various cat things, and humans have been around having various human experiences like liking cats.
19:23:25 <fizzie> I think the point maybe was, before you had domesticated cats, maybe you didn't particularly need a word like "cat" (as opposed to whatever potential other words you had for wild members of the same family of species), and I think it's generally accepted cats were first domesticated in Egypt, so you could still have gotten the idea + a loanword from there, even if you had a language of your own
19:23:33 <fizzie> (Not getting involved in tracing the words, though; it's too much not an exact science.)
19:24:24 <fizzie> shachaf: Do you think people will go on liking cats for more thousands of years, though? Probably. Maybe.
19:24:58 <shachaf> I mean, certainly if there are people and there are cats.
19:27:12 <nakilon> btw those articles don't really say if the word "kat" was about domesticated cats or just any
19:28:45 <nakilon> this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_domesticated_cat says: "... the earlier origin to Southwest Asia"
19:29:15 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83561&oldid=83560 * 2000gmod * (+1228)
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19:30:26 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83562&oldid=83561 * 2000gmod * (-18)
19:31:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: some people predict no, because cats won't be as friendly as today, because they're selectively breeded against because cat owners neuter their cats but don't touch wild cats, so the thousand year long work of domesticating housecats will quickly get mostly undone
19:32:55 <nakilon> shachaf look at this guy https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%82#/media/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Felis_silvestris_silvestris.jpg
19:33:19 <b_jonas> take "friendly" in a relative way restricted to how it applies to cat obviously
19:34:57 <b_jonas> that said, perhaps we'll have robot cats instead
19:43:48 <fizzie> There's that game about robots that have real cats.
19:44:18 <fizzie> I've left the tab open for who knows how long, because that's the only way I know of to manage "take a look at this thing at some point" URLs.
19:45:51 <fizzie> That's why the "main" browser window has 93 tabs and you can only barely see the favicons.
19:47:42 <int-e> . o O ( sudo reboot )
19:49:27 <fizzie> I've told this story before too, but I knew someone who was doing the same in Firefox, except that they never clicked the "restore tabs" button, instead leaving them "in" the restore dialog tab, nested more and more deeply every time they had to restart the browser.
19:49:52 <fizzie> Turns out if you do that, it takes O(2^n) space in your Firefox profile.
19:50:30 -!- sknebel has changed nick to can.
19:50:37 <fizzie> Because it's all JSON, and the "nesting" involves putting all the serialized JSON into a string, so you go " -> \" -> \\\" -> \\\\\\\" -> ...
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19:54:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: I have heard of people who have thousands of tabs open in their browser, though that's probably more common in Chrome than in Firefox
19:54:40 <fizzie> Yeah. I just declare a tabocalypse every now and then to reset.
19:54:59 <fizzie> Maybe "tab amnesty" is a better word.
19:55:00 <arseniiv> was it mentioned that etymology of кошка isn’t quite known? Bulgarian котка is more faithful to the hypothesized rules. Hm though now it seems to say that’s alright making an example of Марья > Машка. So I remember something wrong, then
19:56:40 <int-e> Funny, this may be the first real-life example of unbounded nesting of string quoting that I've come across.
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19:56:59 <b_jonas> I usually only have between two and twenty tabs open, and I don't think I've ever gone above fifty
19:58:18 <b_jonas> I do often have multiple windows though, up to I think five in the worst case, when watching a video or when typing or proofreading something in one window that I read from another
19:59:10 <b_jonas> or more generally, to have a page shown in an unusual window size, which is the common reason for videos too
19:59:36 <b_jonas> like text pages in a narrower window than widescreen video
20:00:11 <b_jonas> and twitch in a wider window than youtube because twitch uses part of the horizontal screen estate for chat
20:02:03 <arseniiv> <int-e> IIRC ё is usually written as е anyway. => yeah I secretly envy Spanish obligatory accents and this. Optionality of dots in ё is even codified; one more reason to not follow the literary norm
20:03:33 <arseniiv> <nakilon> Ешик sounds like some jew name => for me it sounds Bashkir/Tatar as I live nearby
20:05:38 <arseniiv> <int-e> nakilon: I did learn it as a foreign language. But yeah, not sure why we learned the diminuative (that is what it is, right?). => for me personally it seems people rarely say ёж the non-diminutive, maybe that’s my city-dwelling distortion though
20:06:33 <nakilon> tabocalypse -- this damn thing happens on it own after you collect tabs for two years
20:07:06 <nakilon> sometimes no knowledge about chrome internals can help -- it's just gone
20:07:47 <fizzie> Yeah, that's another reason why it's not a great practice for reference management.
20:08:17 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Heh, "kissa" is the standard Finnish word for an adult cat of any gender. => oh! that’s perfect!! I wish I could say now I’m going to learn Finnish but I won’t, more languages are a serious commitment
20:08:25 <fizzie> arseniiv: Our diacritics are critical too; there's a lot of pairs where both are valid, with entirely unrelated meanings. saari/sääri -> leg/island, hella/hellä -> stove/tender.
20:08:41 <nakilon> arseniiv they would say еж on TV in news reports
20:10:21 <nakilon> diacritics... we just write both words in the same way and call it omonym, expecting from you to guess from the context
20:10:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, Hungarian has much fewer of those, especially when the words are in context in a sentence. the few remaining ones are noun or verb grammatical infections where a/e vs á/é makes a difference. when I type Hungarian without diacritics on IRC or skype or email, I often still use diacritics for a few words where it would cause confusion.
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20:11:03 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah they are cute and small
20:15:04 <arseniiv> fizzie: I was doing something like you to look at something later (indefinitely later, eventually) but then I started trying to collect that kind of links in bookmarks, adding some tags in hope I’ll find something useful later, like dogs with bones
20:16:51 <arseniiv> sometimes even placed by folders, though they are for more immediate attention
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20:34:21 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83563&oldid=83562 * 2000gmod * (+51)
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20:43:44 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83564&oldid=83563 * 2000gmod * (+337)
20:45:46 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83565&oldid=83564 * 2000gmod * (+53)
20:46:24 <esolangs> [[User:2000gmod]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83566 * 2000gmod * (+82) Created page with "I'm 2000gmod, engineering student from Chile. Currently creating my first esolang."
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20:47:01 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83567&oldid=83565 * 2000gmod * (+9)
20:49:48 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83568&oldid=83567 * 2000gmod * (+31)
20:51:53 <esolangs> [[Milk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83569 * Salmmanfred * (+702) Created page with "== Milk == A concept for the milk language created by ~~~ === Concept === Milk <br> Add milk - adds milk to the carton a variable that controls the interpreters urges <br> Po..."
21:03:47 <keegan> by restricting the color space (here 4 bits per channel) you can do exhaustive search on each row rather than random https://ibin.co/63QdSeBPFrmG.png
21:05:04 <keegan> for each row we loop through all 4096 colors and pick the one that maximizes the minimum distance to any color already picked
21:07:40 <fizzie> Can you then do a second higher-resolution search in the neighbourhood? If so, will the only benefit of that be that your hex values will look more precise, increasing the believability of the statement that a highly paid brand doctor chose these specific colour values?
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21:11:30 <keegan> I should note that CSS already has a syntax for 12-bit colors but it works slightly differently
21:11:38 <keegan> the values are spaced by 0x11 rather than 0x10
21:11:49 <keegan> so #000 = #000000, #888 = #888888, #fff = #ffffff
21:12:53 <nakilon> keegan by doing the exhaustive search you are probably doing worse, because it's less similar to doing the golden ratio
21:13:53 <nakilon> I would rather iterate until I estimate the maximal available distance and then chose it divided by some constant that is kind of golden ratio but in 3d and might be found empirically somehow by a lot of tries and measuring the quality of result
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21:26:22 <nakilon> meh https://i.imgur.com/HWHgK3a.png can't figure out neither how to set square shaped buttons, nor font size, not how to catch keypress events... so this was my first ruby+tk try but at least it didn't segfault
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21:28:43 <nakilon> another alternative is Opal and there it is possible to style with CSS but idk about events
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21:33:26 <int-e> nakilon: is that iOS? I bet they have a rule against anything with right-angled corners :P
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21:35:29 <nakilon> actually no, Opal sucks since " is for creating documents not interactive applications." so the SWT remains but it's jRuby that is all buggy and old
21:36:02 <int-e> same comment though :P
21:36:08 <nakilon> I meant setting the size of the buttons -- I can set width but the "height" throws an error, lol
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21:38:32 <int-e> btw, I actually scared up a hedgehog (poor thing) 20 minutes ago
21:38:59 <int-e> quite the conicidence, these encounters are rare for me, maybe 3 times a year.
21:39:37 <int-e> walking outside, passing by a graveyard
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21:43:48 <int-e> they're nocturnal but predators? hardly.
21:44:52 <nakilon> it's night, they are hunting for such as you but smaller
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22:12:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheoCGaming * New user account
22:14:56 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83570&oldid=83568 * 2000gmod * (+11)
22:15:01 <zzo38> What is properly the definition of "a Funge"?
22:20:45 <esolangs> [[BrainfOOP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83571&oldid=83570 * 2000gmod * (+0)
22:21:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * 2000gmod * moved [[BrainfOOP]] to [[Brainfoop]]: Better name
22:21:43 <esolangs> [[Brainfoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83574&oldid=83572 * 2000gmod * (+11)
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22:22:55 <fizzie> The wiki has a page on that, though it's just someone's opinion: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungeoid
22:23:14 <fizzie> I kind of agree that the key differentiator is that there should be some sort of an instruction pointer that has some kind of notion of direction of movement, and some kind of space in which to move, and the space should be some kind of a geometrical one instead of a purely abstract one (like a graph).
22:23:23 <fizzie> There's probably a better way of putting that.
22:26:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83575&oldid=83558 * TheoCGaming * (+229) /* Introductions */ just my introduction
22:27:25 <esolangs> [[Entropy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83576&oldid=75202 * TheoCGaming * (+2874) Added a new program section for a FizzBuzz program, originally created by Truttle1, also added a link to his video.
22:29:09 <nakilon> "so the SWT remains but it's jRuby that is all buggy and old" -- meh, jruby just does not install ..\
22:29:43 <fizzie> While I'm fiddling with these things, here's a piece of evidence showing that 2011 is probably when peak #esoteric was reached: https://0x0.st/-2uJ.txt
22:34:53 <esolangs> [[Entropy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83577&oldid=83576 * TheoCGaming * (+82) /* FizzBuzz */ tried to clean up my edit
22:37:40 <esolangs> [[Entropy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83578&oldid=83577 * TheoCGaming * (+12) /* FizzBuzz */ cleaning it up further...
22:49:24 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83579&oldid=83553 * S1(210) * (-20) /* Heading text */
22:55:20 <fizzie> arseniiv: The person with the melodica said Yamaha's Pianicas are in general good yet affordable. And linked to https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/pianica/index.html
22:55:38 <fizzie> arseniiv: (Paraphrasing/translating) "the yellow p-25f is a bit too small, but even the p-32d probably doesn't need much upgrading". Says he plays "almost exclusively" those, last time just an hour ago.
22:55:52 <fizzie> I'm not qualified to comment on the quality of the advice, YMMV.
22:59:05 <esolangs> [[Brainfoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83580&oldid=83574 * 2000gmod * (-5)
23:28:27 <arseniiv> even though that’s a personal taste advice, it’s useful to me
23:32:28 <fizzie> Now I'm tempted to work melodicas in the topic somehow.
23:35:22 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83581&oldid=83579 * S1(210) * (-921) /* Specification */
23:35:53 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83582&oldid=83581 * S1(210) * (-1) /* Overview */
23:40:38 <arseniiv> fizzie: … liberated melodica of esoteric …?
23:42:19 <arseniiv> int-e: do ##math usually see the lambdabot of day?
23:42:39 <int-e> no, ##math has no bots
23:42:54 <b_jonas> you know the saying "if brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it"? what is the analogous saying about solving problems by throwing more money at them?
23:48:12 <nakilon> so SWT empty window app starts in 7 seconds
23:48:22 <nakilon> and it's after their blog post "Halved Startup Time"
23:48:52 <nakilon> "that's all you should know about Java"
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23:59:27 <fizzie> int-e: A channel with no bots? Is that even legal.
00:13:32 <esolangs> [[Milk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83583&oldid=83569 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Implementations */ Total
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00:56:27 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83585&oldid=83584 * S1(210) * (+53) /* My own bad python interpreters */
00:57:59 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83586&oldid=83585 * S1(210) * (+124) /* Implementations */
00:58:14 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83587&oldid=83586 * S1(210) * (+1) /* Implementations */
01:07:53 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83588&oldid=83587 * S1(210) * (+30) /* Implementations */
01:11:46 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83589&oldid=83588 * S1(210) * (+24) /* Hello World */
01:12:47 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83590&oldid=83589 * S1(210) * (-15) /* Truth Machine */
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01:48:22 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83594&oldid=83543 * Ais523 * (+235) this is implemented, and has been since computers were invented
01:57:00 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83595&oldid=83593 * S1(210) * (+150) /* My own python-based interpreter */
01:57:25 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83596&oldid=83595 * S1(210) * (-33) /* My own python-based interpreter */
02:17:04 <esolangs> [[Computerdeutsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83597&oldid=77947 * S1(210) * (-2) /* Type conversion */ schlich for floats means neutral, not feminine
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02:49:56 <salpynx> Is there a (short) public domain/CC0 somewhat standard "Hello World!" for interactive fiction, for testing IF engines?
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03:19:07 <zzo38> I don't know. Can you elaborate about what you require, specifically?
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03:21:35 <salpynx> I was looking for a simple recognisable scenario that could demonstrate a few branching choices, and at least one ending (possibly more), very simple but with more than one path.
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03:23:25 <salpynx> For an esolang idea that sub-TC, but could do a passable attempt at implementing IF style paths and end points
03:24:36 <salpynx> Correctly implementing a playable and recognisable scenario would be the proof that it works as intended, and can at least perform that function.
03:25:38 <salpynx> I could create my own scenario, but recreating an existing one seems more suitable for a proof of ability
03:26:57 <salpynx> basically being in a room with a desk and locked door, opening the drawer, getting the key and leaving the room to win would suffice. I feel like I have seen that
03:32:34 <salpynx> If interactive fiction has a Hello World or Lorem Ipsum, or whatever the term is, I'd want to use that.
03:33:10 <b_jonas> fungot, have you ever played the piano so fast that the limit becomes how slowly the keys return to their unpressed state after you release pressure on them? and if so, have you had the piano retuned to a scale that doesn't have all 12 notes in the octave but some notes duplicated?
03:33:10 <fungot> b_jonas: if you drop it for yourself. ( the leprechaun is not a number of people who said they had acquired stealth and craft, but with no greater success.
03:35:07 <salpynx> fungot, what is a simple IF scenario I could use to test an implementation (and what are your license terms)?
03:35:07 <fungot> salpynx: a priest can get a genuine amulet of yendor: no one is quite sure which. and the caves of the flies" is a misery.
03:35:39 <salpynx> wow, that's pretty good. I was thinking it needed to start in a room or a cave.
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03:47:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
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03:52:13 <salpynx> I think Yendor, from Rogue, is PD. NetHack licensing seems more complicated. In the absence of a standard scenario, I might just run with Fungot's babble, and the Rogue reference will give it some recognisability, and is PD like I wanted.
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04:18:30 <zzo38> I think that the idea of finding a key to open the door is good enough
04:24:34 <salpynx> qn2; is there a standard notation for a countably infinite alphabet, Σ? Σ<superscript> denotes sets of words. Σ = {v0, v1, ...} I think expresses what I need, but is there a shorter or clearer form?
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04:52:36 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83598 * Mase * (+1964) Created page with "An esolang where you can modify the inital state of the circular, 16 value tape before the program is run. Contains brainfuck-like syntax, minus the loops. Because there are n..."
04:54:24 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83599&oldid=83598 * Nailuj29 * (+3)
04:54:41 <Sgeo> I wonder what would have happened if Sgeo[m] was already online
04:54:56 <Sgeo> Also really I should have just waited for Libera Chat to get the Matrix bridge
05:00:33 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83600&oldid=83599 * Aspwil * (+198)
05:01:16 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83601&oldid=83600 * Aspwil * (+4) /* Hello World */
05:02:30 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83602&oldid=83601 * Aspwil * (-15) /* Hello World */
05:05:25 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83603&oldid=83602 * Mase * (+68)
05:06:53 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83604&oldid=83603 * Aspwil * (+40) /* Hello World */
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05:10:37 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83605&oldid=83604 * Mase * (+316)
05:10:59 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83606&oldid=83605 * Mase * (+0)
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06:13:56 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83607&oldid=83606 * Mase * (-1140)
06:21:57 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83608&oldid=83607 * Mase * (+0)
06:30:29 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83609&oldid=83608 * Mase * (+0)
06:48:31 <Sgeo> There are a whole bunch of mentions of Freenode on the wik
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07:14:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83610&oldid=83575 * TeamLightning * (+183) /* Introductions */
07:15:16 <esolangs> [[User:TeamLightning]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83611 * TeamLightning * (+156) Created page with "Hey there, I'm TeamLightning and i write stuff in Python. --~~~~"
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07:39:06 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83612 * TeamLightning * (+2290) Created page with "==Overview== PainLang is basically [[Brainf***]] but written in and writes Python and has one less core command (7 excluding comments and debug). It was written by ~~~~ due to..."
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07:40:18 <ais523> !tell salpynx \mathbb{A} is sometimes used for a countably infinite set whose elements can be compared for equality (with two distinct elements being unequal) but have no other defined properties, that seems to fit what you're looking for
07:41:23 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83613&oldid=83612 * TeamLightning * (+81)
07:45:28 <ais523> @tell salpynx \mathbb{A} is sometimes used for a countably infinite set whose elements can be compared for equality (with two distinct elements being unequal) but have no other defined properties, that seems to fit what you're looking for
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08:04:03 <zzo38> When making up a cryptographic hash algorithm, can it be helpful to compute also a secondary hash (perhaps with a different block size) and append that at the end of the message (as a part of the padding which also specifies the length of the message)? (The secondary hash also uses a different algorithm)
08:04:55 <salpynx> This might give me what I need for demonstrating choice : Choice of Plausible Alternatives (COPA) for AI research, BSD licensed: https://people.ict.usc.edu/~gordon/copa.html#:~:text=The%20Choice%20Of%20Plausible%20Alternatives,sets%20of%20500%20questions%20each.
08:05:19 <salpynx> found via an interactive fiction related paper: https://roemmele.github.io/publications/ICIDS17.pdf
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08:16:33 <HackEso> [U+1D538 MATHEMATICAL DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL A]
08:25:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wasif * New user account
08:37:01 <nakilon> SWT displays only up to 41 buttons lol https://i.imgur.com/3K6b7qX.png
08:37:13 <salpynx> ais523: thanks for the 𝔸 ( \mathbb{A} ) tip. It has me thinking that I do require an _ordered_ set (total rather than partial) and it seems alphabets in formal language theory ... don't care either way about ordering, which is interesting and something I hadn't thought about before. I'd assumed an alphabet was ordered, but ordered vs unordered
08:37:13 <salpynx> alphabets seem like quite different things. I'll look into that further.
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09:13:09 <nakilon> currently in chrome when you select multiple tabs and right click it gives option "add to reading list" and "create new group" and I don't know what are these and why are they there
09:13:57 <nakilon> but I'm definitely sure no one likes that they've removed the "create a bookmarks folder" from there
09:30:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Wiki Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83614&oldid=8539 * Salpynx * (+520) Relation to CSS TCness
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09:55:28 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/NUcyebv.png
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10:15:59 <nakilon> is brainfuck expanding the tape when needed both to left and right?
10:21:32 <tromp> that's implementation dependent
10:22:31 <salpynx> from the wiki page > Negative memory addresses should NOT be assumed to exist, however, an interpreter may provide some. (An optimising interpreter may be forced to)
10:27:20 <nakilon> then I'll assume all basic examples of brainfuck don't use negative memory
10:27:40 <nakilon> that would simplify my RASEL implementation of it
10:29:31 <nakilon> higher address will be deeper in stack, otherwise I would need either to test for negativity to push and nulify the pointer or leak the memory like mad on every BF step in that direction
10:33:50 <salpynx> I had a recollection of there being a Hello World example that required negative cells, it's there on the wiki "by primo" from a codegolf.stackexchange. I think an implementation not supporting that is fine and is more standard.
10:34:40 <salpynx> ^bf --<-<<+[+[<+>--->->->-<<<]>]<<--.<++++++.<<-..<<.<+.>>.>>.<<<.+++.>>.>>-.<<<+.
10:35:25 <salpynx> I wasn't expecting that to work.
10:36:40 <salpynx> still, just because fungot does something doesn't mean anyone else should.
10:36:40 <fungot> salpynx: shopkeepers have incredible patience. she is usually depicted as wearing a ring of teleportation: it is the same tribunal in the dungeon. though not dangerous in and of laufey. loki is the property of fortune cookies, inc.
10:37:13 <salpynx> the first three shifts are left shifts
10:38:21 <fungot> nakilon: shopkeepers don't mind you bringing your pets in the struggle. perhaps the weasel knows the basilisk's deadly gaze, and commending himself most devoutly to his sister and maintained that she should impart the secrets of the waves he received by lot at the gaming board on the station every afternoon to wait for his powerful magic item hidden in a bag.
10:38:41 <nakilon> hah, he failed to respond -- did it "crash"?
10:45:12 <fizzie> It has a wrapping tape and wrapping cells, with pretty small limits, so that's technically an infinite loop.
10:45:22 <fizzie> I would still have expected it to run out of time though.
10:45:40 <fizzie> I think possibly 8-bit cells and a tape length of a 1000.
10:46:12 <fizzie> I sort of feel as if the original implementation used a wrapping (64k) tape too.
10:47:09 <nakilon> ^bf +[<+] --<-<<+[+[<+>--->->->-<<<]>]<<--.<++++++.<<-..<<.<+.>>.>>.<<<.+++.>>.>>-.<<<+.
10:49:04 <tromp> if tape length 1000 is still considered a valid BF impl, then what's the minimum?
10:49:07 <fizzie> Yeah, it's 1000 cells of 8 bits, and 1000000 steps of execution. I guess that's just barely enough for +[<+] to increment all of them enough that one wraps over.
10:49:39 <tromp> surely tape length 1 would be considered too little (does simplify shifting though:-)
10:50:24 <fizzie> A three-cell tape is famously enough to be TC, as log as the values are unbounded.
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10:53:16 <nakilon> 256k per 4 instruction had to be more than 1mln limit
10:53:38 <fizzie> The loop is only 3 instructions, the way it counts them.
10:53:48 <fizzie> <, + and ], which jumps back to the <.
10:54:50 <fizzie> That would be too much though.
10:55:26 <fizzie> I remembered the limit as being 100k instead of 1M, but I probably bumped it up because there was something interesting that didn't quite run.
10:56:02 <fizzie> (Also, +++++ would be a single instruction in terms of that limit.)
10:57:50 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
10:58:29 <fizzie> It's certainly not the first "all bytes" message we've had.
10:58:35 <immibis> at least it strips \r and \n and prevents command injection
10:58:44 <nakilon> ^bf +[+.] +[+.] +[+.] +[+.] +[+.] +[+.] +[+.] +[+.] I wonder about max length
10:58:44 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
10:58:48 <immibis> for some reason \x16 seems to make the rest of the message inverted colours for me
10:59:17 <fizzie> Yeah, ^V does that quite often.
10:59:20 <fizzie> It's also underlined for me.
10:59:47 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/TomV619.png
10:59:51 <fizzie> from the ^_ control character
10:59:52 <immibis> ^bf ++++++++++++++++.[-]--<-<<+[+[<+>--->->->-<<<]>]<<--.<++++++.<<-..<<.<+.>>.>>.<<<.+++.>>.>>-.<<<+.
10:59:59 <immibis> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]--<-<<+[+[<+>--->->->-<<<]>]<<--.<++++++.<<-..<<.<+.>>.>>.<<<.+++.>>.>>-.<<<+.
11:00:25 <fizzie> Heh, I didn't remember implementing strikethrough formatting in the HTML converter.
11:02:25 <fizzie> Potentially I should also convert invalid UTF-8 to U+FFFD in the prettified formats. But then someone'd complain it's not true to the original.
11:04:05 <fizzie> I've no idea why I didn't fold consecutive arbitrary sequences of +-s and <>s together, rather than just doing the per-instruction-type run-length encoding.
11:05:42 <fizzie> I guess maybe that's just because that's something the programmer can already do on their side.
11:08:23 <salpynx> all of the bots here handle that negative cell example, F*ngot, HackEso, and lambdabot
11:08:57 <salpynx> @bf --<-<<+[+[<+>--->->->-<<<]>]<<--.<++++++.<<-..<<.<+.>>.>>.<<<.+++.>>.>>-.<<<+.
11:09:06 <salpynx> `! bf --<-<<+[+[<+>--->->->-<<<]>]<<--.<++++++.<<-..<<.<+.>>.>>.<<<.+++.>>.>>-.<<<+.
11:10:05 <salpynx> I was hoping to see the output of that code where the left shifts couldn't work
11:11:09 <fizzie> I feel like usually if < off the left edge is not allowed, it just terminates the program.
11:16:30 <nakilon> fizzie so if fungot translating the bf to befunge?
11:16:30 <fungot> nakilon: hu*h*eto*l, minion of huhetotl: huehuetotl, or ettin, is a spotted red. the streets were broken and the four men, of golden daffodils; beside the lake now lives in a clear cold voice. ' behold, i go to my profession. ( the colour of magic, by diana wynne jones)
11:16:50 <nakilon> and the translator is implemented in befunge?
11:16:55 <fizzie> Not really, no. It just translates into an intermediate bytecode.
11:17:24 * nakilon changed nickname to huehuetotl
11:17:51 <fizzie> There's a parser that goes from the source representation to that, and then an interpreter that runs it; ^bf does both, while ^def bf ... just does the first step and leaves the second when you invoke the defined command.
11:18:06 <salpynx> https://copy.sh/brainfuck has 3 memory overflow behaviours: undefined (fast), wrap, abort. Undefined gives garbage output, wrap works, abort gives a sensible warning and terminates, as you said.
11:19:01 <fizzie> ^def tmp bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
11:19:25 <salpynx> Ah, I had assumed / hoped fungot's interpreter was implemented in befunge
11:19:25 <fungot> salpynx: latest news? put `rec.games.roguelike.nethack' in the cracks and it seemed to him asked, " hey guys, *wield* a lizard, which one's real? xander: no one knows why this is true, but it was light enough to enter, and the wolf did not take place, perhaps it was overheard or repeated by an exploding tin.
11:19:28 <fizzie> Also wrapped that % 256, because the cells do.
11:20:43 <fizzie> Approximately lines 355-376 (brainfuck source to that bytecode format) and 298-310 (bytecode interpreter) of https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 if you want to see them.
11:20:43 <fungot> fizzie: chromatic dragon, cut her body in two. the food with his claws and poison sting.
11:21:29 <fizzie> Likewise for ^ul, the Underload interpreter, except there the intermediate format is pretty much the same as the source text.
11:22:13 <fizzie> I had a standalone "development" version of at least the underload one, but I don't think I've got a copy of the bf one not embedded in the bot.
11:23:18 <fizzie> I feel like -2 is "really" a +254 and I just disambiguate when printing, maybe.
11:23:33 <fizzie> ^def tmp bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
11:24:29 <fizzie> There's six instructions in the bytecode, and it's actually documented in the comments, lines 438-446.
11:24:53 <fizzie> Well, seven if you count the marker at the end.
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11:27:43 <fizzie> Yeah, no, it's not a proper optimizing thing.
11:27:51 <fizzie> I don't even have a "set value" opcode.
11:31:12 <fizzie> ^ul ((Underload, the language of easy quines)!aS(^:)S):^
11:31:12 <fungot> ((Underload, the language of easy quines)!aS(^:)S)^:
11:31:37 <salpynx> I think I misunderstood "Not really, no. It just translates into an intermediate bytecode."
11:32:05 <fizzie> Yeah, that was an answer to the "is it translating the bf into a befunge" question, not the "is it implemented in befunge" one.
11:32:57 <immibis> but it's not turing-complete
11:33:02 <salpynx> Right, so there is a befunge bf interpreter in fungot, but it doesn't work by translating bf -> befunge
11:33:02 <fungot> salpynx: a katana might slice a worm in two. the waves to the carpet, where his eye. they are the devil's work.
11:33:08 <nakilon> $ echo "-" | ruby bf_translator.rasel
11:34:34 <fizzie> The Brainfuck-on-Befunge-98 and Underload-on-Befunge-98 X's on https://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters link to our bot's source code. Hmm, maybe they should link to its wiki page instead.
11:34:50 <fizzie> Also, I don't think that style works too well, let's stick with the standard.
11:34:54 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
11:37:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83615&oldid=83522 * B jonas * (-154) make the move to libera/#esolangs almost official
11:37:40 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83616&oldid=82808 * Fizzie * (-88) /* Main table */ Link to wiki article instead of directly to source.
11:39:04 <nakilon> does the amount of letters in table cell mean an amount of different implementations?
11:42:37 <esolangs> [[Esolangs (irc)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83617 * B jonas * (+859) Created page with "'''esolangs''' is an IRC bot maintained by fizzie that supports the official esoteric languages community IRC discussion channel. It usually uses the nick "esolangs" on the l..."
11:43:09 <esolangs> [[Esowiki]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83618 * B jonas * (+28) Redirected page to [[Esolangs (irc)]]
11:43:22 <nakilon> what does "Part of cycle" mean?
11:43:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83619&oldid=83615 * B jonas * (+25)
11:45:19 <salpynx> fungot: ▬▬ι═══════ﺤ 🪱②.♒ 䋬 ,👁.😈J.
11:45:19 <fungot> salpynx: it's been ages since i have done
11:45:21 <fizzie> I think it's used just by the Bub/Brainfuck pair, but it's supposed to denote a case where you can build an arbitrarily long thing out of X-on-Y-on-X-on-Y-on-..., or A-on-B-on-C-on-A-on-...
11:45:21 <esolangs> [[Velik]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83620 * B jonas * (+249) Created page with "'''velik''' is an IRC bot maintained by [[User:Nakilon]] that evaluates the [[RASEL]] fungeoid language. It was created in 2021-05. It is resident on the libera/#esolangs ch..."
11:45:50 <fizzie> I don't think the table's rich enough to show all the possible cycles though.
11:46:22 <fizzie> Someone could take that as an adjacency matrix of a DAG and convert it into a graph though.
11:49:49 <b_jonas> salpynx: I'd say use one of those mazes made of six rooms where every room has an indistinguishable description, each one has exits in eight cardinal directions, one of which takes you to the next room and eight takes you back to the very first room, the player has three or four objects that they can drop or take to figure out where they are, and you win after the correct exit of the last room which
11:50:22 <esolangs> [[Esolangs (irc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83621&oldid=83617 * Fizzie * (+80) Add source link
11:54:19 <salpynx> b_jonas: Those mazes are annoying, and familiar, and that's a good idea. I think that will challenge what I have in mind, so is a good test case, thanks!
12:00:52 <nakilon> heh https://dpaste.org/oRzr/slim
12:01:56 <nakilon> oh idk why the extension is rasel, that's a mistake, should be rb
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12:02:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Epidemic7 * New user account
12:03:17 <fizzie> Oh, that reminds me, I need to restart that to fix a tiny little logging bug.
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12:03:49 <salpynx> .rb could be confused with Ruby
12:07:25 <salpynx> oh wait, that code is ruby I thought the RASEL extension was .rb , ignore that
12:08:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83622&oldid=83610 * Epidemic7 * (+209) /* Introductions */
12:10:30 <salpynx> I had been keeping brainfuck and befunge extensions separate in my head, handling another pair of languages starting with the same letter (r) clearly broke me.
12:12:53 <nakilon> there was .rbw for wxWidgets apps years ago, then .rbi for idk what, now .srb for static type annotation files
12:13:09 <nakilon> pretty sure that's only a half of the zoo
12:16:53 <esolangs> [[User:Epidemic7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83623 * Epidemic7 * (+297) Created page with "Hello, I'm Epidemic7 / Epidem7c / EHGDTPSTLA. (Don't ask about the last one, it's a acronym and a long story.) I like making esolangs that are: One Dimensional Data Tape Styl..."
12:18:05 <esolangs> [[User:Epidemic7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83624&oldid=83623 * Epidemic7 * (+36)
12:18:55 <nakilon> salpynx you forgot the stringmode instruction ..D
12:23:40 <velik> output: "", exit code: 255
12:24:15 <salpynx> nakilon: I was trying to use the base36 numbers to set ASCII, why didn't that work?
12:24:46 <nakilon> you probably want : before ,
12:25:01 <nakilon> at least before the first one
12:25:17 <velik> output: "", exit code: 255
12:26:01 <fizzie> Oh, https://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX was that thing I was thinking of when we had that discussion the other day about whether it's cheating to use netcat/socat when doing an IRC bot in an esolang that does only stdin/out.
12:26:05 <fizzie> I still don't think it's cheating, but PSOX would arguably be a more esoteric way of going about it.
12:26:47 <nakilon> salpynx there is no "+" in RASEL ..D
12:27:16 <salpynx> I've off-by-one errored in my attempt, which is frustratingly annoying, because if Z = 36, "Hi" would be easy to output
12:28:05 <salpynx> I honestly thought it was some wiki quoting thing that swallowed the + char
12:30:39 <velik> output: "Hi", exit code: 0
12:31:19 <salpynx> oh, you beat me, that's what I was just working towards :P
12:31:49 <salpynx> was just trying to get the correct sequence of divisions
12:35:00 <velik> output: "Ji", exit code: 0
12:35:12 <velik> output: "Hi", exit code: 0
12:35:32 <velik> output: "Hi", exit code: 0
12:39:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Marius is taken * New user account
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13:01:40 <nakilon> when ?> ; append.call "01--"
13:01:40 <nakilon> when ?< ; append.call "1-:01--?@"
13:02:01 <nakilon> this is basically the safe "<"
13:02:52 <nakilon> it calls @ with negative on the top of the stack so exits with code 255
13:03:16 <nakilon> now the hardest part: ], [
13:05:48 <salpynx> \rasel HI::/\15//D-,16//3-,0@
13:05:49 <velik> output: "Hi", exit code: 0
13:06:55 <salpynx> I'm too tired to optimise that further, not sure if there's a way to input 2d source
13:07:41 <salpynx> yes, but I wanted to delimit the initial HI from the rest of the code as much as possible
13:07:51 <nakilon> yeah, there is no way to input 2d source but you can use '?' and 'j' to make a one-liner
13:09:33 <salpynx> For some reason the feature that appeals to me most is the ability to avoid string mode completely, and just use b36. The lack of + and * was an unexpected challenge :)
13:11:50 <salpynx> also non-wrapping cells meant I addition can't be done with -, and non-integer cells and no ability (AFAICT) to round down to integers for character output was another fun obstacle
13:13:21 <nakilon> didn't understand the first part
13:13:54 <nakilon> but you might be able to floor by :1%-
13:22:20 <velik> output: "72.25 H", exit code: 0
13:22:46 <salpynx> vs an exit code 255 trying to output 72.25 as a character
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13:46:41 <b_jonas> nakilon: what? I thought you added a way to input 2d source by adding some character that is a synonym to the newline
13:47:14 <nakilon> b_jonas that was only an idea
13:47:38 <velik> output: "#", exit code: 0
13:49:50 <nakilon> oh you mean that's a character? ..D
13:51:50 <b_jonas> you could pick a different character
13:54:47 <b_jonas> I mean you're defining this language, so you're picking the specific syntax
13:55:15 <b_jonas> you've already picked it for the other new instructions like the new swappeek or whatever that's called
13:55:36 <b_jonas> swappeek would be for memory addresses, this is for the data stack
13:56:46 <nakilon> "defining this language" -- not the language though but a bot interface but yeah, I'll probably go with the same how I made -stdin
13:57:23 <b_jonas> why? why would you put that feature only in the bot interface rather than the language?
13:57:33 <b_jonas> that would just make incompatible versions of your language for no good reason
13:58:05 <b_jonas> unless you, like, expect that good mnemonic characters as instruction names will be scarce or something
13:58:44 <nakilon> are there any fungeoids that have a special "one-liner conversion syntax"
13:59:31 <nakilon> the line break character is already defined and it's \n, it's just IRC's "fault" it can't handle it
13:59:35 <b_jonas> I refuse, it's not "special syntax" because newlines aren't special, it's just multiple equivalent characters
13:59:43 <nakilon> some multiline chat would do
14:00:13 <b_jonas> no, IRC uses that character for something else of significance, and for something useful too, unlike \r and \x00 which it just reserves for not much reason
14:01:42 <b_jonas> you could say that it's IRC's fault, but python's current syntax is inconvenient in contexts other than IRC too, exactly because it requires newlines, so it's hard to say a short python program in-line in a paragraph of text, on a webpage or printed book
14:01:57 <nakilon> how do other bots here implement multiline?
14:02:02 <b_jonas> we can fix that in python, I have an idea that I should perhaps implement, though the hard part is not implementing it but documenting it properly
14:02:10 <salpynx> \rasel 91D//:1-:5-:1-:7-:1-,4\,,2\,1\,,@
14:02:13 <velik> output: "fungot", exit code: 0
14:02:26 <nakilon> ruby also judges ";" the same as "\n"
14:02:39 <b_jonas> nakilon: not quite the same, but you can program ruby without newlines
14:03:27 <b_jonas> the same can be said about javascript and haskell, and there are evaluation bots for both on freenode
14:03:53 <b_jonas> brainfuck and underload in fungot just require trivial substitutions
14:03:53 <fungot> b_jonas: swap x with y is always equal to whatever x is equal to
14:04:07 <nakilon> salpynx hah, you built the array monotoneous and then traversed it in another order, right?
14:04:26 <b_jonas> and perlbot lets you use compose to pass any string that you generate from any command as argument any other command, so that way you can pass newlines:
14:06:19 <b_jonas> perlbot compose @eval @eval qq|for (65..90) {\n\t$c .= chr;\n}\nprint $c|``
14:06:21 <perlbot> b_jonas: ERROR: syntax error at (IRC) line 2, near ".="
14:06:30 <b_jonas> perlbot compose @eval @eval qq|for (65..90) {\n\t\$c .= chr;\n}\nprint \$c|``
14:06:32 <perlbot> b_jonas: ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
14:06:50 <b_jonas> the inner eval prints a perl program that contains newlines, the outer eval interprets that perl program
14:07:06 <b_jonas> of course perl doesn't care too much about newlines so this particular example is silly, but still
14:07:24 <simcop2387> but it does lead to monstrosities like the tempconv factoid
14:07:30 <perlbot> simcop2387: <*:##NULL> P:macro tempconv is `eval %f=(`fact _tempconv_units!);`fact _tempconv_newton!;`fact _tempconv_init!;$in=`quote d `arg!!;if($in=~/(?<v>[\-+]?\d+(?:\.\d+)?(?:ee?[\-+]?\d+)?)(?:\s*°)?\s*(?<u>$ur)/i){($v,$u)=@+{v,u};$c=$f2{fc$u}->($v);join" = ",map{$q=d($_);(eval{inv($f2{$q},$c)}//"UND ").$_}sort{d($a)cmp d($b)} keys%f}else{"Not supported, use ".join(", ",sort{d($a)cmp d($b)}keys%f)}!
14:07:41 <perlbot> simcop2387: 27.00°C = 109.50°D = 80.60°F = 4.56e-03GM = 300.15K = 8.91°N = 540.27R = 21.60°Ré = 21.68°Rø = 53.80°€
14:08:02 <b_jonas> the general idea of unquoting things with eval can be useful when programming perlbot
14:08:45 <b_jonas> it's an esoteric invention that I'm proud of
14:08:54 <b_jonas> I should actually mention it on the wiki userpage
14:09:19 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83625&oldid=76586 * B jonas * (+28)
14:10:24 <nakilon> b_jonas compose is bot's command, not perl's, right?
14:11:32 <nakilon> but you advice me to put it into the language implementation rather than bot xyntax
14:12:55 <b_jonas> the five commands, compose quote eval fact arg, together turn out to be universal in a sense, they together let you run any program that can invoke any sequence of buubot commands, store state, decisions between them, and define macros that can do that when invoked
14:13:52 <velik> \rasel <RASEL code>; \rasel -stdin <any char><stdin><same char><RASEL code>; don't forget the '@' instruction or it will timeout; timelimit=30s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
14:14:35 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, sandbox technology was basic back then, so we couldn't have easily changed the sandbox of the eval command that runs a perl interpreter to be able to invoke buubot commands. and even if we could make it invoke buubot commands, that would be less esoteric and easier to program than this horrible mess.
14:14:50 <nakilon> I don't see a reason not to implement it as a \rasel -n<any char>[<code><same char>,...]
14:15:20 <b_jonas> nakilon: but note that the characters that IRC don't allow aren't really useful in a perl program. at best they can help encode string literals that have those characters, or heredocs.
14:15:36 <nakilon> also considering that "n" isn't a valid RASEL instruction and so raises the error so the "-n" clearly reads as "aha, it's a bot flag"
14:15:43 <b_jonas> if the main interpreter was a language that needed newlines, we would probably have done something about that
14:16:34 <b_jonas> I mean we had a jeval there at some point (that's also my fault) and it only accepted a single line
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14:19:02 <nakilon> the only [a-z] instruction is "j"
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14:19:19 <nakilon> though maybe if it's the only one maybe it should be changed to some other char too
14:19:54 <nakilon> that would even allow lowercase base36 for some reason
14:33:26 <b_jonas> no, you should reserve the other lowercase stuff for future extensions
14:34:55 <b_jonas> like use a-g to load and push seven named numeric registers, and k-q to pop store to them
14:35:04 <b_jonas> or whatever else you want to add
14:35:48 <nakilon> I don't like the registers idea because the "seven" would be a magic artificial limit number
14:36:04 <nakilon> while RASEL provides unlimited stack, precision, etc.
14:36:11 <b_jonas> an instruction to get the stack depth so you can use absolute pointers to the stack
14:37:45 <b_jonas> anyway, you don't have to add them now, you can keep them reserved for *future* extensions
14:38:12 <nakilon> is there no analogue of xxd in hackeso?
14:38:35 <b_jonas> dunno, but you can install anything
14:38:47 <HackEso> bash: line 0: type: xxd: not found
14:39:03 <b_jonas> I usually just use perl for that sort of thing
14:41:21 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint pack H99,"I068656c6c6f2c20776f726c64"
14:41:21 <HackEso> hello, world.....................................
14:41:24 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint pack H99,I068656c6c6f2c20776f726c64
14:41:25 <HackEso> hello, world.....................................
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14:43:31 <b_jonas> you can also use base64 instead of hex, or python instead of perl, etc
14:44:11 <nakilon> $ echo "+++[-.]" | ruby bf_translator.rb | rasel | xxd -p
14:44:36 <nakilon> probably made the loop, now need something nested
14:49:54 <nakilon> $ echo "++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++." | ruby bf_translator.rb | rasel
14:50:53 <nakilon> but the "+[-->-[>>+>-----<<]<--<---]>-.>>>+.>>..+++[.>]<<<<.+++.------.<<-.>>>>+." just hangs -- is it just slow?
14:51:10 <nakilon> \bf +[-->-[>>+>-----<<]<--<---]>-.>>>+.>>..+++[.>]<<<<.+++.------.<<-.>>>>+.
14:51:15 <nakilon> ^bf +[-->-[>>+>-----<<]<--<---]>-.>>>+.>>..+++[.>]<<<<.+++.------.<<-.>>>>+.
14:51:44 <nakilon> oh it's probably doing %256
15:05:35 <nakilon> https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/8b725636e9f84cb60c7eb1763936ca1c348f1066/examples/bf_translator.rb
15:08:21 <fizzie> `! bf_txtgen Hello, World!
15:08:24 <HackEso> 118 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++>+++<<<<-]>---.>----.+++++++..+++.>>-.<++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+. [458]
15:08:30 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++>+++<<<<-]>---.>----.+++++++..+++.>>-.<++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.
15:08:38 <fizzie> Not quite as optimal though.
15:08:42 <salpynx> \rasel PI::/\1F//K-1\2D//4-/1A1A1A1A1A1A///////////:2\1\/:1%-1:\//.@
15:08:43 <velik> output: "3.141592 ", exit code: 0
15:09:43 <salpynx> tomorrow I'll try to figure out how to remove the repetitions by changing dir and doing jumps. It's hard to debug in IRC chat :)
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15:10:44 <fizzie> (bf_txtgen output will always start with a +{n}[(>+{n}){4}] to set 4 "best" constants, followed by a sequence of ><+-. to do the output. Even when it doesn't actually need 4 constants.)
15:11:01 <HackEso> 32 +++++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>. [70]
15:11:33 <fizzie> +{n}[(>+{n}){4}<{4}-], I mean.
15:13:53 <nakilon> salpynx you can install ruby and gem or launch docker image ruby:alpine and install gem there
15:17:00 <nakilon> that's just bot's face when he's trying hard
15:18:27 <salpynx> \rasel PI::/\1F//K-1\2D//4-/1A/A/A/A/A/A/:2\1\/:1%-1:\//.@
15:18:28 <velik> output: "3.141592 ", exit code: 0
15:18:42 <salpynx> that's an obvious optimisation
15:26:25 <nakilon> %256 didn't help, probably that "the shortest" helloworld also uses nagetive addressing
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15:58:20 <b_jonas> I wonder if you can take Fourier series to prove the Copernican model right by computing what epicycles the planets move on
16:17:10 <HackEso> slap? No such file or directory
16:17:28 * cd wrote a slap command for their hackbot instance last night
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16:22:30 <perlbot> b_jonas: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [selfish] [slap] [self] [celebs] [solaris] [surveys] [alpaca] [ellipse] [globs] [gloves]
16:22:36 <perlbot> b_jonas: Saboted Light Armor Piercing
16:24:03 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83626&oldid=83596 * S1(210) * (+30)
16:24:28 <cd> @slap b_jonas ow
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16:28:02 <b_jonas> perlbot macro slap can has (echo (nick &n) slaps (eval (arg d)||"perlbot") on the head with a (eval (qw"herring trout baguette mapole","garden hose")[rand 5]))
16:28:02 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored slap can has (echo (nick &n) slaps (eval (arg d)||"perlbot") on the head with a (eval (qw"herring trout baguette mapole","garden hose")[rand 5]))
16:28:06 <perlbot> b_jonas: Compose failed to find a plugin named: nick
16:28:13 <b_jonas> perlbot macro slap can has (echo (arg &n) slaps (eval (arg d)||"perlbot") on the head with a (eval (qw"herring trout baguette mapole","garden hose")[rand 5]))
16:28:14 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored slap can has (echo (arg &n) slaps (eval (arg d)||"perlbot") on the head with a (eval (qw"herring trout baguette mapole","garden hose")[rand 5]))
16:28:18 <perlbot> b_jonas: Compose failed to find a plugin named: qw"herring
16:28:45 <b_jonas> perlbot macro slap can has `echo `arg &n' slaps `eval `arg d'||"perlbot"' on the head with a `eval (qw"herring trout baguette mapole","garden hose")[rand 5]''
16:28:45 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored slap can has `echo `arg &n' slaps `eval `arg d'||"perlbot"' on the head with a `eval (qw"herring trout baguette mapole","garden hose")[rand 5]''
16:28:50 <perlbot> b_jonas: b_jonas slaps perlbot on the head with a herring
16:28:54 <perlbot> b_jonas: b_jonas slaps cd on the head with a herring
16:29:01 <perlbot> b_jonas: b_jonas slaps perlbot on the head with a mapole
16:29:07 <b_jonas> ok so it's not always a herring
16:29:15 <b_jonas> I was afraid I messed up the rand
16:29:37 <cd> aha, i was too when i wrote mine and it pulled the same stunt but with salmon
16:29:53 <cd> https://pybin.pw/9_K6
16:30:05 <b_jonas> well I was more lucky when I demonstrated a random coin flip a few days ago
16:30:22 <b_jonas> as an exmaple statement to make a point about how J can't be compiled
16:30:31 <b_jonas> it managed to give the right coin flips like three times
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16:34:54 <fizzie> Where's that whole "mapole" thing from, anyway?
16:34:59 <HackEso> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
16:35:13 <b_jonas> I think it was some kind of wisdom thing
16:35:30 <fizzie> I associate it with oerjan somehow, but that might just be a red herring.
16:35:44 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/wisdom; grep -REli mapole .
16:35:46 <HackEso> ./boily \ ./amphiboily \ ./thwackamacallit \ ./corkscrew \ ./swatter \ ./mapole \ ./userweps \ ./rdococ \ ./brontosaurus
16:35:54 <HackEso> “Sane Mapoleon” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world kafkaesque.
16:36:05 <HackEso> The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric. Not to be confused with the saucepan or mapoles.
16:36:08 <HackEso> rdococ was thought to be from Budapest, then Mars, but he is actually in Airstrip One. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
16:36:11 <HackEso> A brontosaurus is an ancient mythological creature. They were well known for having mapoles for teeth.
16:37:03 <HackEso> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
16:42:34 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83627&oldid=83626 * S1(210) * (+912) /* Recursion and Nonreducing Groups */
16:44:09 <HackEso> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
16:44:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83628&oldid=83622 * Hypocritical * (+66) /* Introductions */
16:44:29 <esolangs> [[Discordlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83629 * Hypocritical * (+43) Created page with "'''''Discord-Lang!''''' '''Coming soon!'''"
16:46:20 <fizzie> It says BOTTOM in all caps right on the line before, how do you not notice? Anyway, I guess it doesn't really matter.
16:48:07 <cd> fizzie: I've seen worse stupidity on enwiki, don't worry
16:48:09 <cd> that's nothing
16:48:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: you can't make people on the internet read warnings
16:48:53 <b_jonas> or instructions or anything
16:49:48 <cd> b_jonas: this reminds me, i can't wait to see people get ""banned"" from one of our mob farms on a server because they failed to read the "Mute the in-game volume or your game will die" warning
16:50:10 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83630&oldid=83627 * S1(210) * (-107) /* Adder */
16:50:24 <cd> (Minecraft is written badly and logs a warning every time it can't play a sound. Unfortunately, this area generates thousands of sounds it can't play because the queue is full every second.)
16:51:31 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83631&oldid=83188 * Tomhe * (+21)
16:53:22 <nakilon> so optiimizing the +/- chains improved size of the resulting helloworld from 4029 to 2017
16:54:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shane Paton * New user account
16:57:36 <nakilon> the resulting code is https://dpaste.org/asko/slim
16:57:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83632&oldid=83628 * Shane Paton * (+59)
17:12:24 <esolangs> [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83633&oldid=66666 * Camto * (-19) It's actually been back alive for a while now.
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17:38:14 <esolangs> [[User:Nakilon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83634&oldid=83447 * Nakilon * (+71) about velik
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17:58:49 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83635&oldid=83433 * Nakilon * (-224) described language goals; linked velik
18:06:42 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
18:06:59 <esolangs> [[Velik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83636&oldid=83620 * Nakilon * (+602) commands usage examples (moved from RASEL page); links
18:07:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83637&oldid=83632 * Fizzie * (+192) Seriously though, the instructions are right there.
18:11:05 <nakilon> the "instructions were not enough clear" meme
18:13:07 <fizzie> I accidentally added talk-thread style `--`s myself, because the immediately preceding introductions had one. Though to be fair, that's what comes out of the sign button by default.
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18:41:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Crain * New user account
18:44:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NickDev-1666 * New user account
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18:50:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83638&oldid=83637 * NickDev-1666 * (+164) /* Introductions */
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19:08:27 <cd> `` cat $(which rainbow)
19:08:29 <HackEso> print_args_or_input "$@" | pikhqbow
19:08:57 <cd> `` cat $(which pikhqbow)
19:08:58 <HackEso> ELF............>.....d@.....@.................@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@.....4......4........ ............8......8`.....8`.....H......X........ ...........P......P`.....P`......................................@.....@.....D.......D..............Ptd...X......X@.....X@.....,.......,..............Q
19:09:04 <cd> ah a binary
19:10:42 <cd> pikhq: bonk, do you happen to still have the src to that or should i just nab it?
19:11:03 <HackEso> 8746:2016-07-05 <pikḧq> ` gcc -Os -s src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow \ 8744:2016-07-05 <pikḧq> ` gcc -Os -s src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow \ 8742:2016-07-05 <pikḧq> ` gcc src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow
19:11:14 <pikhq> oh god i definitely don't
19:11:17 <HackEso> 99.sh \ bob.c \ brainfuck.fu \ ciol \ ciol.c \ daoyu.c \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ grph.c \ hello2.c \ hello3.c \ hello.c \ maze.c \ orenbow.c \ pikhqbow.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
19:11:24 <HackEso> #include <stdio.h> \ #include <wchar.h> \ #include <locale.h> \ int main(){wint_t c;int a=0;setlocale(LC_ALL,"C.UTF-8");b:c=fgetwc(stdin);if(c==EOF) return 0;printf("\x03%d%lc%s",(int[]){4,8,9,11,12,13}[a],c,c==L','?"\x0f":"",c);if(++a==6)a=0;goto b;}
19:11:41 <cd> nevermind then, sorry for the ping :P
19:12:38 <shachaf> Is there a language like C99, but only with a few more good features?
19:12:59 <cd> for some reason the std* headers in my hackbot instance are broken. I'll need to stop being terrified and debug that now
19:13:07 <cd> i literally have no idea why @.@
19:13:21 <cd> shachaf: uhhh, probably zig
19:18:44 <cd> https://hackbot.hellomouse.net/file/tip/fuck aaAAAAAAAAAAA
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19:24:32 <cd> `gcc --version
19:24:33 <HackEso> gcc (Debian 8.3.0-6) 8.3.0 \ Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
19:27:09 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83639&oldid=83609 * Mase * (+278)
19:38:04 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83640&oldid=83639 * Mase * (+19)
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19:39:04 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83641&oldid=83640 * Mase * (+89) /* Truth machine */
19:39:17 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83642&oldid=83641 * Mase * (-21) /* Hello World */
19:39:39 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83643&oldid=83630 * S1(210) * (-81) /* Adder */
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19:40:59 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83644&oldid=83643 * S1(210) * (-26) /* Triangular Number */
19:42:17 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83645&oldid=83644 * S1(210) * (+99) /* Triangular Number */
19:46:25 <cd> `` gcc -Os -s src/pikhqbow.c -o pikhqbow_tst
19:46:27 <HackEso> gcc: error: src/pikhqbow.c: No such file or directory \ gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
19:46:35 <cd> `` gcc -Os -s ../src/pikhqbow.c -o pikhqbow_tst
19:48:30 <fizzie> Doing `du -sh` in . misses all the version-controlled part, because $CWD is in /hackenv/tmp to start with.
19:48:35 <fizzie> Doing it in /hackenv inside umlbox takes too long to be feasible, but it's about 750M all in all.
19:49:23 <cd> well wonderful, gcc, clang, and tcc all don't work inside umlbox in my instance, wtf
19:49:39 <cd> gcc segfaults, clang dies, tcc fails for some reason
19:51:18 <cd> guessing the best place to start is building a new uml kernel
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20:48:34 <int-e> Okay, this is not ideal: In order to print something, I have to submit a print job, then reboot so that it notices that the printer is attached.
20:55:41 <fizzie> I have a printer I've set up "properly", but when I turn on the printer, some automagical thing creates a second instance of it, and then I have to remember which one's the one that actually works.
20:56:06 <int-e> is it the new one or the original one?
20:57:16 <fizzie> I think it's the original one.
20:57:50 <fizzie> I think I gave the new one a try on the assumption that if it clever enough to create it automatically, it's clever enough to make a working one as well, but it wasn't.
20:58:01 <fizzie> Or else it's possible both would work. But they're definitely different.
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21:03:46 <int-e> this one is getting stuck on "waiting for printer to become ready" somehow
21:04:07 <int-e> oh well, I printed what I wanted to print... not in the mood for delving into cups stuff
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21:06:58 * nakilon does not know why everyone have printers
21:07:18 <int-e> because of paperwork
21:09:33 <int-e> (This is a badly maintained vendor-provided printer "driver"... problems are not unexpected.)
21:10:25 <zzo38> I have a trouble with printer on my computer (maybe it is a hardware problem though), so instead when I want to print, I print it on a different computer
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21:55:35 <b_jonas> int-e: back with my pentium 2 compaq home computer and Epson matrix printer, I could only print from Linux if I started DOS first and then started Linux with loadlin from that. DOS did some magic and without that the printer didn't initialize, you could even tell from the status light on the printer.
21:56:50 <b_jonas> nakilon: I don't have any now; if I want to print, I can just go to a copy shop with self-serving printing. if it were for work then I could use the office printer, but I don't need to print anything for work.
21:57:41 <b_jonas> the office printers have some magic too for what you have to do to set up drivers to use them, but as a software guy, I never need to use them
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23:57:15 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83646&oldid=83642 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* Reference Interpreter (Written in C, yes the code is bad) */ Cats
00:00:33 <velik> output: "\xF0\x9F\x8D\x84", exit code: 0
00:01:15 <velik> output: "3.1415929203539825 ", exit code: 0
00:02:41 <salpynx> nakilon: I'm liking how the stack data type is rational
00:07:27 <salpynx> I was trying to play with loading data cells using unicode and UTF8, but I'll need to write a tool to do that, figuring out valid utf8 continuation bytes in reverse my hand is kinda tricky :)
00:07:41 <nakilon> and I doubt it's possible to get utf-8 output from rasel via bot -- the subprocess output is probably ascii by default and I don't convert it to utf-8 explicitely
00:08:37 <nakilon> but I'm not 100% sure, the chain is long
00:10:26 <salpynx> `` echo -e "\xF0\x9F\x8D\x84"
00:15:20 <salpynx> yeah, I'm not sure how to sort the output buffering through Ruby and over IRC, in python there is a way to output the bytes from low level langs so utf8 can be built byte by byte and displays nicely
00:16:57 <nakilon> `` ruby -e 'p "\xF0\x9F\x8D\x84"'
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00:17:33 <nakilon> `` ruby -e 'puts"\xF0\x9F\x8D\x84"'
00:18:15 <nakilon> google music decided to play some track about champignon
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00:25:50 <salpynx> Google knows you like funge-i
00:29:20 <nakilon> you know why the transitively reduced graph of my packages was much simplier?
00:29:30 <nakilon> because there was a bug and half of nodes were gone
00:30:38 <salpynx> `` ruby -e '[0xF0, 0x9F, 0x8D, 0x84].each {|c| putc c}'
00:32:41 <salpynx> dunno if that's better, just making sure Ruby is doing the output byte by byte. "\xF0\x9F\x8D\x84".length = 1 , so wanted to make sure 4 bytes really do combine
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00:54:28 <nakilon> fixed graph reducing: https://imgchest.com/p/69rydv6nykz
00:55:43 <nakilon> there are pack/unpck in ruby same as in perl, and they accept endian
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01:00:37 <zzo38> Do they have big endian, small endian, and PDP endian?
01:01:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, they don't have mixed endiand stuff
01:01:58 <b_jonas> and probably only 8-bit bytes
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01:03:17 <zzo38> Yes, although it is going to run on a computer with only 8-bit bytes, anyways.
01:03:44 <HackEso> 557) <fizzie> It's a bit like a regular monowheel, except when you brake too hard, instead of you going around and around inside the wheel, the (1100lb) wheel rolls over you.
01:05:34 <oerjan_> int-e: tmux was acting up while i tried to register, as a result i cut and pasted the password wrongly from one command to the other
01:05:56 <nakilon> https://docs.ruby-lang.org/en/3.0.0/String.html#method-i-unpack
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01:11:52 <oerjan> ...and my password mnemonic has an off-by-one error.
01:12:40 <oerjan> then again, it's in .irssi/config anyway.
01:14:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Borkingforlife * New user account
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05:13:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OfficialCraftCGame * New user account
05:20:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83647&oldid=83638 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+295)
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05:46:34 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83648&oldid=83613 * TeamLightning * (-56) /* Overview */
05:47:57 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83649&oldid=83648 * TeamLightning * (-27) /* Syntax */
05:50:19 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83650&oldid=83649 * TeamLightning * (+110) /* Interpreters */
05:51:53 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83651&oldid=83650 * TeamLightning * (+7) /* Interpreters */
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06:10:10 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Galveston]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83653 * Salpynx * (+3233) basic specification of this -word / mapping idea
06:13:21 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83654&oldid=83652 * TeamLightning * (+101)
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06:31:52 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83655&oldid=83654 * TeamLightning * (+4) /* Computational class */
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07:02:49 <esolangs> [[Palette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83656 * Shane Paton * (+3184) Creation
07:06:10 <esolangs> [[Palette]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83657&oldid=83656 * Shane Paton * (+23)
07:13:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83658&oldid=83552 * Shane Paton * (+14) /* P */
07:30:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Y = g(x).png]]"
07:31:30 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Galveston]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83660&oldid=83653 * Salpynx * (+58) /* Examples */ plot of the -word
07:36:47 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Galveston]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83661&oldid=83660 * Salpynx * (+7) alignment
07:43:18 <esolangs> [[Palette]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83662&oldid=83657 * Shane Paton * (+238) Math: Subtraction
07:48:54 <esolangs> [[Palette]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83663&oldid=83662 * Shane Paton * (-29)
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08:16:23 <esolangs> [[Palette]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83664&oldid=83663 * Shane Paton * (+236)
08:34:30 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Galveston]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83665&oldid=83661 * Salpynx * (+1326) /* Examples */ playthrough example from partial implementation
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08:44:09 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Galveston]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83666&oldid=83665 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Jump convention */ correct heading
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12:13:03 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Galveston]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83667&oldid=83666 * Salpynx * (-7) /* Truth Machine (symbol notation) */
12:14:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Relt * New user account
12:18:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83668&oldid=83647 * Relt * (+213)
12:19:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83669&oldid=83668 * Relt * (-2)
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12:36:08 <esolangs> [[User:Relt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83670 * Relt * (+11) Created page with "placeholder"
12:47:12 <esolangs> [[GotoFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83671 * VilgotanL * (+1726) created the page
12:52:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim1.png]]"
12:52:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim2.png]]"
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13:05:23 <esolangs> [[GotoFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83677&oldid=83671 * VilgotanL * (+70) add interpreter link
13:06:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim3.1.png]]"
13:06:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim3.2.png]]"
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13:07:01 <esolangs> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83682&oldid=83519 * VilgotanL * (+15) add gotofuck language
13:12:26 <esolangs> [[GotoFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83683&oldid=83677 * VilgotanL * (+390) add hello world example
13:17:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim4.png]]": +
13:19:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim5.png]]": -
13:21:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim4.1.png]]"
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13:38:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim6.png]]": +++
13:43:57 <b_jonas> this might be a weird idea but what if, at the same time that we make this the new official channel, we could also change the new official featured language on the wiki?
13:46:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim7.png]]"
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14:03:15 <esolangs> [[GotoFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83693&oldid=83683 * VilgotanL * (-155) add TODO to computational class section since i noticed it was wrong
14:04:28 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83694&oldid=83655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) Bounded storage machine
14:06:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim10.png]]": ,
14:10:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim11.png]]"
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14:21:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim11.1.png]]"
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14:26:45 <esolangs> [[NOR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83701&oldid=50008 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Interpreter/Compiler */ Cats
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14:27:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TowarzyszDiatow * New user account
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14:37:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83702&oldid=83669 * Sppmacd * (+139)
14:41:23 <esolangs> [[Line]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83703 * Relt * (+2751) Created page with "'''Line''' is a 2d programming language that is structured on lines and turns. == Syntax == === Program flow === A line is a path that the Cursor follows every step 1 grid un..."
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14:51:05 <esolangs> [[Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83704&oldid=83703 * Relt * (+292)
14:52:07 <esolangs> [[Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83705&oldid=83704 * Relt * (+119)
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14:59:22 <esolangs> [[GotoFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83706&oldid=83693 * VilgotanL * (+403) fix computational class section, remove todo
15:00:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83707&oldid=83545 * Batata * (-19)
15:00:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83708&oldid=83658 * Relt * (+11) /* Line */
15:00:53 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83709&oldid=83201 * Batata * (+42)
15:01:05 <esolangs> [[Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83710&oldid=83705 * Relt * (+11)
15:01:35 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83711&oldid=83709 * Batata * (+2)
15:03:32 <esolangs> [[GotoFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83712&oldid=83706 * VilgotanL * (+4) change hello world example
15:17:44 <esolangs> [[GotoFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83713&oldid=83712 * VilgotanL * (+112) add truth-machine
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15:29:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim13.png]]": add
15:48:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Relt * uploaded "[[File:Lineanim14.png]]"
15:49:04 <esolangs> [[Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83716&oldid=83710 * Relt * (+98)
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16:01:52 <nakilon> 15:30:31 <b_jonas> \rasel 918//,L15//,0@
16:02:42 <velik> output: "Hi", exit code: 0
16:02:59 <nakilon> so I made the program that is searching for RASEL formulas to get big integers
16:04:27 <nakilon> 58 LOC, ~100 stop-rules and several hours found this <N>1<N>// thing
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16:13:24 <nakilon> can't decide what is cooler: I0I-- or 616//
16:13:38 <nakilon> one uses -, another one uses lower digits
16:15:54 <nakilon> probably lower digits are better because they have higher chance to be taken from existing stack and reused
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17:12:36 <esolangs> [[Palette]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83717&oldid=83664 * Shane Paton * (-4)
17:14:28 <HackEso> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
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17:34:33 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
18:02:44 <fizzie> Expect some brief downtime for all esolangs.org services.
18:03:28 <fizzie> (It's past time to finally apply one of those kernel upgrades. 1239 days of uptime currently.)
18:04:04 <esolangs> [[Palette]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83718&oldid=83717 * Shane Paton * (+120)
18:04:47 <fizzie> Of course someone's just editing an article. :/ I should come up with some way of watching out for that.
18:09:31 <nakilon> is there a command that reads esolang article?
18:09:35 <Sgeo> Why is https://esolangs.org/wiki/BIT listed as unimplemented?
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18:17:38 <fizzie> Maybe it was at the time the category was added? Whoever added that interpreter link definitely didn't update the categories.
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18:37:13 <fizzie> Gah, that container's real pleasant to debug networking in. "bash: ping: command not found" "bash: nc: command not found" "bash: curl: command not found" "bash: telnet: command not found"
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18:38:46 <HackEso> date: invalid date ‘-d "now -1239day"’
18:38:52 <HackEso> 2018-01-07 18:38:52.024 +0000 UTC January 7 Sunday 2018-W01-7
18:39:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: "some way of watching out for that" um, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges ?
18:40:09 <fizzie> That's after the fact, though.
18:40:34 <fizzie> I wanted something like, "opened an &action=edit page but did not yet press submit or navigate away".
18:40:51 <b_jonas> oh, I sometimes do that to read the source, without an intent to edit
18:41:35 <fizzie> Yeah, I do too. But it might still be a working heuristic, at least if coupled with a "and less than half an hour is passed" or something.
18:41:43 <fizzie> (Ended up doing a grep-based approximation on access_log.)
18:43:33 <b_jonas> well sure, you need a timeout
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19:12:30 <fizzie> Yeah, that's the only thing that was there. I ended up doing a wget on a non-HTTP port just to test if it can connect.
19:13:03 <fizzie> Though should've remembered of course socat must be installed too, because that's what HackEso is using.
19:13:35 <nakilon> speaking about editing before reboot... back in 2013 we had jenkins instance that was used by three teams, so sometimes we could overwrite each other's edits
19:14:06 <nakilon> my idea was to make a mandatory chrome extension that would show if someone (and who) is editing now the same page
19:14:18 <nakilon> it would work perfectly but I was fired
19:15:07 <nakilon> and since then so many times I hear people (not random internet users like in case of esolang wiki of course) have this problem with concurrent edits
19:15:50 <nakilon> on the following jobs I was only the only one to edit jenkins so personally didn't need it anymore
19:16:19 <nakilon> confluence is another mess -- not even an extension would help
19:16:19 <keegan> exec 3<>/dev/tcp/www.example.com/80; echo $'HEAD / HTTP/1.1\nHost: example.com\nConnection: close\n' >&3; cat <&3
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19:17:04 <fizzie> I did come across someone's MediaWiki extension to warn when someone else is already editing a page, when looking for ways to get that info out of it.
19:17:32 <fizzie> Wasn't there someone here (well, the previous channel) using an IRC client written in bash on top of /dev/tcp?
19:18:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: I remember someone who complained whenever someone put a control-N in IRC because their simplistic IRC client didn't filter that
19:18:30 <fizzie> Also, incoming fungot outage too. But the uptime of where fungot's at is only 357 days. Although that's pretty respectable for a random desktop computer at a residential flat with no UPS or whatever.
19:18:30 <fungot> fizzie: i can paste you a fibonacci sequence program for the os of course) mov fnord mov fnord
19:18:50 <fizzie> fungot: Look, I'll boot you right back up, just think of it as taking a nap.
19:18:51 <fungot> fizzie: i have been asked this lots of time with the setup program.
19:20:13 <fizzie> ^N and ^O would be the ASCII SO/SI (shift out, shift in) characters, used for character set changes in some terminals.
19:20:28 <b_jonas> nakilon: terminal control sequence thing in vt-101 derivatives, activates an alternate charset which is usually a certain graphical one with line-drawing characters, undo with control-O
19:20:46 <b_jonas> it's the easiest way how you can accidentally mess up your terminal by accidentally catting a binary file
19:21:09 <b_jonas> the other easy one is a long sequence of control-Gs for terminals where the sound delay blocks everything
19:21:21 <b_jonas> everything else requires more than one byte
19:21:55 <nakilon> oh does ^<X> means ascii 'A'+X ?
19:22:06 <fizzie> ascii '@' + X, really.
19:22:26 <fizzie> Right, and I mean X-'@'.
19:22:56 <fizzie> Alternatively, you could say ^<X> means X & 0x1f.
19:23:35 <velik> output: "64 ", exit code: 0
19:24:32 <b_jonas> though there are sequences that mess up your terminal in ways that are harder to undo, such as \e[12m on linux console only
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19:25:12 <nakilon> one option is to type "reset<enter>"
19:25:15 <b_jonas> also the control sequences that change the palette on linux console. and if you want even more damage, you can use ioctls rather than just control sequences.
19:25:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, what does ^? mean then?
19:26:34 <fizzie> Hmm, possibly you could say that ^X means X ^ 0x40, that's a reasonable interpretation as well. But I think it's all a little ill-defined outside the @-_ range.
19:26:43 <b_jonas> with ioctls you can change not only the palette, but also the font or the number of rows in the font, including changing the video mode to one pixel height
19:26:49 <b_jonas> or possibly only two pixel height
19:27:21 <fizzie> X ^ 0x40 would make ^? 0x7F aka DEL, though, that sounds borderline plausible.
19:27:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'd say it's more complicated, it makes sense to define ^2 ^3 ^4 ^5 ^6 ^7 to mean ^@ ^[ ^
19:27:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'd say it's more complicated, it makes sense to define ^2 ^3 ^4 ^5 ^6 ^7 to mean ^@ ^[ ^\ ^] ^^ ^_ respectively, because that's an alternate way to input them on some terminals
19:29:22 <b_jonas> also control-space is an alternate way to input control-@ on some terminals (it works in most unix things but not on PC BIOS), and then there's control-enter and control-backspace which sometimes give the other one out of ^M vs ^J or of ^H vs ^? resp than the base key without control gives
19:30:02 <b_jonas> but I think ^? is the only one that's actually used as a notation
19:30:10 <b_jonas> I don't think anyone writes ^2 to ^7 with a caret
19:31:48 <fizzie> And ctrl-space would look very confusing with a caret. "Just press ^ ."
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19:32:34 <b_jonas> lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRNXa70C3x4 an april fools keyboard review
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19:35:29 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling all normal?
19:35:29 <fungot> fizzie: yay! i have fnord installed but i don't
19:35:38 <fizzie> I think that's within tolerances.
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19:37:10 <b_jonas> fungot, have you ever played the piano so quickly that the time until a key releases after you remove pressure becomes the bottleneck?
19:37:10 <fungot> b_jonas: that's what i do
19:37:50 <esolangs> <LKoen> where's esowiki retransmitting from?
19:37:58 <fizzie> From #esolangs at Libera.Chat.
19:38:19 <esolangs> <LKoen> my second question was "is this a two-way bridge" which you just answered
19:38:38 <b_jonas> LKoen: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal has some more info
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19:38:55 <b_jonas> plus the logs from a week or two ago have some information about what all the drama was and why we decided to move
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19:39:20 <b_jonas> but it might be better for your sanity if you don't know about it
19:39:55 <esolangs> <LKoen> I heard people talking about that
19:40:01 <b_jonas> all you have to know is that a lot of communities decided to move away from freenode, and you may have to look for them on this network or other IRC networks
19:40:22 <b_jonas> the drama is still recent so some of the moves or information might not be stabilized yet
19:41:02 <esolangs> <LKoen> as long as no one moves to discord, we'll survive
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20:06:01 <esolangs> [[The Formal Letter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83719 * Batata * (+1185) Created page with "'''The Formal Letter''', sometimes simply called '''Formal''', is a [[Joke_language_list|joke esolang]] that consists in an extremely formal letter from the programmer to the..."
20:06:53 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83720&oldid=83220 * Batata * (+40)
20:07:00 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83721&oldid=83720 * Batata * (+1)
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20:59:04 <HackEso> [U+1D12A MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE SHARP]
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21:14:15 <salpynx> esowiki's Bounded-storage machine article could do with some references. I can't remember to what extent the "BSMs with bounded input" is original research, or standard theory + terminology.
21:23:29 <nakilon> for some time I've been using such thing in my bash config that on changing the directory it looks for ./.bashrc and executes it
21:24:01 <nakilon> I guess this is it: export PROMPT_COMMAND="history -a; if [[ -e .bashrc && \"\$PWD\" != \"\$HOME\" && \"\$(history 1 | awk '{print \$4;}')\" == 'cd' ]]; then source .bashrc; fi;"
21:25:35 <nakilon> so every new project has a "root directory" that you cd to it eventually either locally or when all stuff is on the server, and there in .bashrc I had several "echo"s that remind you "to run, provide this env var... to run tests run this... don't forget to copy this secret..." etc.
21:27:30 <nakilon> for some reason I stopped using it but still sometimes have a problem that switching to some project after a while I don't fully remember how to do things correctly and I blame myself that I didn't make that .bashrc file but still am lazy to add it, thinking "next time I won't forget those details" or whatever is the reason
21:27:37 <b_jonas> nakilon: isn't that dangerous because it might run an untrusted trojan?
21:28:23 <nakilon> b_jonas yep, if someone knows I'm executing such files, so you can have very random filename that it used only by you
21:28:55 <nakilon> while that script always worked fine for years both locally and on my server I think maybe there is some reason why I forget to use it
21:29:14 <b_jonas> I mean if you had those scripts stored separately, in a trusted database, and you looked scripts up there by pathname, that could work
21:29:36 <salpynx> the echo with autoloading new commands is useful. I imagine it could lead to confusion if commands changed depending on what dir you were in (a lot to manage), but I can see how it'd be useful for different projects.
21:29:50 <nakilon> I doubt it's easy to make yourself "look up in another storage"
21:31:29 <salpynx> I tend to have txt note file with exports and other things to copy-paste if I use them semi-frequently. That's a poor version of "look up in another storage"
21:31:43 <b_jonas> by the way, I hate how in newer versions of MS Office, the Save As option hides the default save dialog that comes with Windows runtime libraries and is quite well designed and works well and I love it, and instead presents a different dialog from which you need an extra action to get the normal dialog. it's probably even worse for educating not very computer savvy users.
21:32:16 <salpynx> formalising it to a standard project source script might be a good idea though. Auto sourcing on cd may be a little risky
21:33:40 <nakilon> the idea of automatizing it was that you always forget that there are any notes in any specific project at all
21:33:57 <nakilon> it's like a reminder that runs on its own as basically all reminders do by definition
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21:35:38 <salpynx> sometimes I don't want to be reminded...
21:36:29 <nakilon> "export this env var" isn't that much annoying thing
21:37:05 <nakilon> and since I've rebooted my machine two days ago after 650 days of uptime all my bash sessions restarted
21:37:41 <nakilon> and I launched one script with no env var and it created artifacts that it didn't have to make and it would need time to figure out how to fix it now
21:40:12 <nakilon> to avoid the accidental running of someone else's or even forged .bashrc you could implement a script that would check it's cryptographic signature or something
21:40:29 <nakilon> but that's beyond my level of willing to build it
21:41:32 <b_jonas> I usually just have a file named "notes.txt" or something similar like "notes/notes.txt", "meta/notes.txt", "src/notes.txt", or in older projects "NOTES"
21:41:58 <nakilon> or the command might be not "source .bashrc" but "cat .myreadme"
21:42:14 <nakilon> since all the use cases I had were about just echoing
21:42:34 <b_jonas> I mean I grew up on DOS where these were often called "00README.1ST" or some variation of that, or occasionally even start with an exclamation mark
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21:43:22 <nakilon> yeah you see such file if you are using GUI, either windows or some mc
21:43:35 <b_jonas> or just at the start of DIR
21:43:55 <nakilon> but I just cd directly to where I need and then "ruby mai<tab autocomplete>n.rb" most of the time
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21:44:15 <salpynx> lol at 'or in older projects "NOTES"' :)
21:44:36 <b_jonas> well the NOTES is all-caps to bring them to the start of ls output
21:45:24 <nakilon> I used to name folders 15 years ago on Windows with all caps lock
21:45:49 <nakilon> now I'm doing it again to see that the directory isn't a specific project but a place for multiple of those
21:46:41 <b_jonas> I don't use many uppercase names anymore, except for Makefile, but I don't usually rename old uppercase filenames like "NOTES"
21:47:15 <nakilon> renaming files ruins git log
21:47:16 <zzo38> The README file is often a all uppercase file name in many projects I think
21:48:42 <nakilon> b_jonas how big are your NOTES? anyone else uses this filename?
21:48:55 <salpynx> nakilon: I just saw your pointing me to Polynomial in logs (missed it at the time). and it links to Formula -- I hadn't seen either of these surprisingly. thanks.
21:49:10 <nakilon> maybe I should change my .bashrc files to NOTES or something to automatically cat it
22:00:10 <zzo38> Not only in GitHub; it is used in some other projects too. I don't use the NOTES file name
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22:05:25 <zzo38> Fossil includes the possibility to indicate which files are renamed within the repository; I don't know about git working
22:06:45 <nakilon> https://library.stanford.edu/research/data-management-services/case-studies/case-study-file-naming-done-well
22:06:54 <nakilon> "Case study: File naming done well"
22:07:00 <nakilon> FR3S.140623.129C.2653.W.JPG
22:12:44 <fizzie> "And don't forget to include your naming scheme documentation in a readme.txt file in your data folder!"
22:12:53 <fizzie> I think that's the critical part if you're going with names like that.
22:17:38 <fizzie> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brocklesby-irc-isupport-03#section-4.8 "The traditional CHARSET parameter has been entirely removed. It was found to be unworkable; a correct specification could not be devised to represent its meaning across implementations."
22:17:47 <fizzie> (In other words: character sets are hard?)
22:22:12 <salpynx> FR3S.140623.129C.2653.W.JPG.DOC.BAK.OLD.DO_NOT_DELETE_2
22:26:15 <oren> https://github.com/yarrick/pingfs
22:26:44 <oren> storing data in en-route ping packets
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00:00:54 <shachaf> int-e: Should I be crediting the distinguished point method of finding collisions to Pollard at all?
00:01:21 <shachaf> Pollard's rho is a very different algorithm (for factoring) that can't use distinguished points.
00:07:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83722&oldid=83707 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) Make better title
00:13:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83723&oldid=83722 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+301) .
00:15:51 <salpynx> :( I have just realised my WIP omega-word language that was meant to be sub-TC and in the category of FSM + some strange but still limited infinite extension is a super set of oracle machines pretty much by definition, so is apparently super-TC
00:17:20 <salpynx> at least, unlike other haha-halting problems langs on the wiki, this thing can at least implement and play real low level FSMs with minimal syntax.
00:18:57 <b_jonas> shachaf: but isn't it like you have two ways to find repeats, the slow and fast movement that Pollard traditionally uses and the values with a hash ending in zero that you traditionally use for finding hash collisions, but in theory you can use either for a prime factoring algorithm similar to Pollard or for finding hash collisions?
00:21:41 <shachaf> How would you use it for factoring?
00:21:59 <shachaf> You can't tell if a point is distinguished.
00:50:53 <b_jonas> why not? just hash the points and distinguish them if the hash is low enough
00:51:32 <b_jonas> I have implemented Pollard rho prime decomposition once but don't quite remember how it works, and hash collision finding very few times
01:07:45 <shachaf> You don't know the points, though.
01:07:58 <shachaf> I mean, you know the points mod n, but you care about the points mod p, and you don't know p.
01:08:25 <b_jonas> oh! yes, that's how Pollard worked
01:08:30 <b_jonas> then what I said is stupid
01:09:21 <b_jonas> anyway, I have a very different programming question
01:12:01 <b_jonas> you know how in C++ or rust, you can use constructors and destructors to implement an interface for reference-counted smart pointers such that they automatically increment the refcount when you copy the pointer and decrement it when you get rid of it
01:12:10 <b_jonas> this works well and is proven technology
01:14:19 <b_jonas> you can also do something similar, but not quite the same, for a garbage collector. there the problem is that the collector has to be able to access not only structure on your heap but also your local variables on the stack. there are two methods for this: conservative garbage collectors that just scan the stack and assume that any word might be a pointer, in which case they have to be able to validate
01:14:25 <b_jonas> what numbers are valid pointers, and normal ones where you have to keep track of which variables are pointers
01:16:07 <b_jonas> my question is, how much harder does such a natural interface get between moving/generational garbage collectors compared to garbage collectors where the pointer value never has to change? I have seen two interfaces for moving garbage collectors: the one in Lua where you can effectively only store pointers only on the Lua stack and you have to index them, and the mzscheme one that I haven't looked at
01:16:13 <b_jonas> for a long time and can't remember how it works
01:18:39 <b_jonas> ghc has a garbage collector too, but no proper interface for extensions where they can easily own pointers. they can create stable pointers, or store pointers in normal haskell algebraic type values, but neither is really convenient from C code.
01:19:48 <b_jonas> ruby 1.6 has a conservative garbage collector so you can just use plain pointers, as long as you don't try xor trick on them or store them anywhere other than on ruby's heap or the stack
01:20:15 <b_jonas> I don't know if recent ruby 2 still has that
01:20:23 <b_jonas> they have changed a lot of details about the core
01:20:56 <b_jonas> well, they also changed a lot about the language
01:22:07 <b_jonas> perl uses refcounting of course
01:22:51 <int-e> shachaf: in the papers I've seen it used, the primary reference for the distinguished point method is van Oorschot+Wiener
01:24:05 <int-e> But obviously Pollard was a big inspiration.
01:24:57 <shachaf> Aren't the cycle-finding algorithms (tortoise-hare etc.) a bigger inspiration? The Pollard method doesn't even require a collision, I think, just a cycle, right?
01:25:18 <b_jonas> ah yes, tortoise and hare, that's what it's called!
01:25:20 <shachaf> Another question: Can Pollard rho factoring be parallelized at all?
01:26:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno but it's probably not worth because if you want something more complex than pollard, there are much faster prime factoring algorithms these days
01:26:13 <shachaf> What's the best cycle-finding algorithm for the Pollard rho thing? Is it some variant of Brent's algorithm?
01:26:56 <int-e> shachaf: sure, it was meant for cycle-finding, but the rho clearly has a collision in it.
01:27:31 <shachaf> Hmm, does it work if you start inside a cycle?
01:27:57 <int-e> Parallelizing pollard rho... no, since there's no useful notion of distinguished points since every value is a mix of something modulo p and something modulo q.
01:28:09 <int-e> And the whole idea is that those cycle independently
01:28:16 <shachaf> Right, that's what I was thinking.
01:28:54 <int-e> hopefully; if you start in cycles of equal length both modulo p and q then it doesn't work
01:29:55 <int-e> So it only parallelizes in the bad way where N processors result in an sqrt(N) expected speedup.
01:30:41 <shachaf> Right. Whereas the distinguished point method is approximately the best case for a parallel algorithm that needs to share memory at all.
01:30:47 <b_jonas> hmm, I wrote a pollard rho prime factorizer for the Sharp EL-5120 calculator, but I can't find it in my records of EL-5120 programs. but then, I wrote way more programs for that than I have records for, in particular I have written a rudimentary minesweeper program that I don't have the source code for.
01:33:08 <b_jonas> also a program that implements McCulloch's 2nd machine, but that's sort of useless because it only handles values up to between 10 and 12 digits long (12 digit should work I think, but I'm not sure, because there's some peculiar behavior that makes anything longer than 10 digits hard to handle, specifically if you subtract two numbers and the exponent of the result would be ten orders of magnitude less
01:33:14 <b_jonas> than the inputs than the result is forcibly zero, even though there are two significant digits that the operation could return)
01:41:57 <int-e> shachaf: oh, btw, that f(x) = g(y) problem and the associated trick of combining them into a single function also comes up in discrete logs: let f(x) = x*g and g(x) = x*g^floor(sqrt(p)). Start with the unknown value, and for all x/y values computed, keep track of the corresponding exponents of g multiplied in.
01:42:21 <int-e> shachaf: I suspect that has a name attached to it too, but I'm too lazy to check right now.
01:44:26 <b_jonas> I do have the source of my two trial division prime factorization programs for the EL-5120, and they're called FELB.4+ and FELB.5 so they aren't the first such programs that I wrote
01:44:35 <b_jonas> I don't know why I don't have the pollard one preserved
01:45:17 <b_jonas> ISTR that was by far the best prime factorizer I wrote for that calculator
01:45:59 <b_jonas> unless perhaps this FELB.5 is a Pollard program and I just have no idea how it works
01:46:29 <b_jonas> but that seems unlikely because I'm pretty sure "if =fpart(V/Wgoto 5;if =fpart(V/(W+2goto 5;W=W+6" is trial division
01:48:17 <b_jonas> apart form the two factorizers, I have a quadratic equation solver and the maze game
01:49:53 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Galveston]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83724&oldid=83667 * Salpynx * (+3441) /* Computational class */ musings, trying to classify this thing
01:53:31 <int-e> shachaf: Ah that doesn't work yet, since a g^n = a g^m doesn't tell us anything about a. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollard%27s_rho_algorithm_for_logarithms is what I had in mind and adds a third function into the mix: squaring modulo p.
01:54:16 <int-e> But in any case *that* trick can be attributed to Pollard, maybe? Or maybe it's older than that.
01:55:44 <int-e> As usual, it's used for a slightly different purpose... there's no attempt to obtain cross-collisions.
01:58:19 <b_jonas> int-e: TAOCP might answer that about the history
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02:04:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83725&oldid=83723 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+136)
02:12:58 <int-e> Hmm, he doesn't really do discrete logs, it seems. There's a HM30 exercise which at a glance seems to be the fully fledged Adleman's index calculus approach.
02:13:53 <int-e> He doesn't seem to do cycle finding much either... there's Floyd's algorithm as an exercise.
02:14:05 <int-e> So no, I don't think Knuth is helpful in this case.
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02:16:54 <int-e> One thing I do love about Knuth is that he's meticulous in preparing his indices. So it's relatively quick and easy to check these things with high confidence.
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03:05:34 <zzo38> Is there a video codec for making screenshots of computer programs including games with 2D graphics?
03:06:05 <keegan> why should a special codec be needed?
03:10:56 <int-e> keegan: same reason why we tend to use png for screenshots rather than jpg: artifacts
03:12:36 <keegan> i see. so you want a lossless video codec? those exist
03:15:11 <keegan> or you want it to be lossy but in a different way? that's trickier
03:15:55 <int-e> probably specially tuned for the characteristics of applications (less sure about 2D video games, apart from the idea that copying rectangles from one frame to the next is probably very useful)
03:16:20 <int-e> but it's not my question.
03:17:52 <nakilon> zzo38 "video" codec for making "screenshots"? I guess ffmpeg can make png screenshots in a loop
03:18:12 <int-e> remote desktop servers/clients would be the first place where I'd look for this kind of thing
03:18:35 <nakilon> since when does #esolangs learned to make screenshots in png though
03:19:40 <shachaf> You're confused. It's #esoteric that you have a feud about screenshots or encodings or whatever in, not #esolangs.
03:19:42 <keegan> I'm sure someone has already made tools to record and play back VNC streams
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04:02:00 <zzo38> Yes I did mean copying rectangles can be very useful, possibly also fonts, icons, etc that may reappear in another frame later after it is absent for some frames, or multiples of the same icon or font, too
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04:18:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Doridian * New user account
04:24:02 -!- Lykaina_ has changed nick to Lykaina.
04:25:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83726&oldid=83702 * Doridian * (+195)
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05:11:01 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83727 * Doridian * (+4890) Created page with "'''Channeler''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Doridian]]. It is based around the idea of messaging channels (essentially function calls). '''Chann..."
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05:42:06 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83728&oldid=83727 * Doridian * (+4)
05:48:47 <pikhq> shachaf: i'll have a feud about screenshots wherever i feel like tyvm
06:07:44 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Galveston]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83729&oldid=83724 * Salpynx * (+338) /* External resources */ something I need to finish reading. Good because it talks about more than just accepting automata
06:10:23 <int-e> shachaf: https://nitter.fdn.fr/RabbitEveryHour
06:11:40 <shachaf> It's too bad cats are cuter than rabbits, since they're carnivores and all.
06:15:37 <int-e> pfft, https://nitter.fdn.fr/RabbitEveryHour/status/1398172245344796674#m
06:16:15 <esolangs> [[Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83730&oldid=83716 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+34) /* Conditional turn */
06:18:08 <esolangs> [[Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83731&oldid=83730 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+156) /* Brainfuck compatibility */
06:23:00 <shachaf> Do you like Wegman-Carter MACs?
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07:06:22 <esolangs> [[Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83732&oldid=83731 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+62) Recategorization
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07:52:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: rabbits are bred for eating. we don't eat their eggs or milk, they don't pull carts or herd sheep or guard your house, their hide isn't too useful either. there's a limit on how cute you want an animal like that to be, above that people wouldn't be willing to eat them.
07:56:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Line]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83733 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+122) Created page with "==Crossover== The multiplication program mentioned signal crossover. Could you tell me how it works? <pre> | -+- |</pre>"
07:59:10 <esolangs> [[Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83734&oldid=83732 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+41) Recategorization
07:59:11 <b_jonas> whereas we don't eat cats, they're bred to hunt rats and other pest animals. and I guess that's the evolutional reason why they offer you animals that they hunt: that lets the breeders actually evaluate how successful each cat is in at hunting. either that, or the egyptian gods did give some rewards for sacrificing lots of very low XP animals.
07:59:27 <shachaf> I don't think eating mammals is good.
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07:59:53 <ais523> zzo38: there's https://wiki.multimedia.cx/index.php?title=DosBox_Capture_Codec which was designed for making video recordings of 2D video game gameplay
08:00:17 <ais523> the format seems to have a few shortcomings, but it's supported widely enough that you can, e.g., upload a ZMBV-encoded video to YouTube and it understands it
08:00:34 <ais523> (and it replays in my computer's video player, too)
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08:02:42 <ais523> I think it would be possible to do better using some sort of sprite+background encoding, like most 2D computer games actually use
08:02:52 <ais523> for communicating with the graphics card
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08:08:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83735&oldid=83733 * Relt * (+119)
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08:23:21 <esolangs> [[Line]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83736&oldid=83734 * Relt * (-225)
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11:49:14 <fizzie> b_jonas: I don't think it's likely true, but a cat book suggested the thing about bringing you little offerings (often half-alive) is because they've noticed you kind of suck at the hunting part, and are trying to sort of get you started.
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12:22:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83737&oldid=83725 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* OK */ /* OK */
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12:24:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83738&oldid=83737 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) /* OK */ /* OK */ /* OK */
12:24:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83739&oldid=83738 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) ;
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13:00:16 <nakilon> now I wonder about rabbit milk
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13:12:00 <nakilon> looks like there is not only nitter for twitter written in nim but also invidious for youtube written in crystal
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13:13:46 <nakilon> chrome doesn't open https://nitter.net/
13:16:38 <nakilon> and since "As of September 1st 2020, invidio.us has closed down" looks like there is no other domain that would be always up according to https://stats.uptimerobot.com/89VnzSKAn (those green are just mirror lists)
13:17:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Line]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83740&oldid=83735 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) Unsigned
13:26:00 <nakilon> someone should make an instance that would consume APIs of all those instances rotating them when they are down
13:29:16 <nakilon> also two days ago I've learned there is RSS in Youtube
13:30:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Arcane * New user account
13:34:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83741&oldid=83726 * Arcane * (+167) /* Introductions */
13:35:19 <esolangs> [[User:Arcane]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83742 * Arcane * (+12) Created page with "Hello There!"
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13:39:50 <fizzie> fungot: You okay in there?
13:39:50 <fungot> fizzie: i think it was
13:42:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
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14:19:04 <nakilon> how are styles being added?
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14:19:20 <nakilon> there should be a Terry A. Davis style
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14:21:17 <nakilon> I see some mention in repo but I see no examples in it, I guess it's a server configuration
14:21:22 <arseniiv> nakilon: fizzie markov-chains a corpus in an unspecified way and then feeds it to fungot through a big alchemical funnel. I didn’t say anything
14:21:22 <fungot> arseniiv: they are? i see a wiki as a collaborative enterprise when quality emerges out of iterative editing by various contributors. it's not like i'm going to an oriental philosophy class, only in a very very subset of) bf.
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14:27:21 <fizzie> The *process* itself isn't unspecified, it's all defined step-by-step in https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/varikn/readme.txt
14:27:21 <fungot> fizzie: there have been some problem in my c/ c++ compiled scheme would integrate much better with an expression that the evaluator just needs to know what is a explorbation?
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15:00:06 <nakilon> the only quotes list I've found contains 177 and it does not contain random ones that I find elsewhere (
15:02:00 <fizzie> The department VariKN is from, which I think at the time was probably the Department of Information and Computer Science at the Helsinki University of Technology, but both of those names have changed since then.
15:02:26 <fizzie> http://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/quotes is what `quote looks at in.
15:04:35 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83743&oldid=82781 * Tux1 * (+374)
15:09:30 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83744&oldid=83728 * Doridian * (+430) Add memory cell specifications
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15:20:29 <nakilon> the second most annoying bug that I can't do anything about is in Github repo Insights tab the Network tab doesn't show the tree until you refresh the page
15:21:45 <nakilon> it's been years already and is not my local problem because I started seeing it on machine in the office
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17:28:04 <nakilon> "I only maintain the accursed thing, I don't actually read it. " (c) Chris Pressey about Trefunge-98
17:28:24 <nakilon> *Trefunge-98 specification
17:31:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's the traditional explanation (giving you food as an offer of friendship and to help you). nor is that exclusive with the evolutionary perspective really.
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17:33:48 <b_jonas> nakilon: .pl is a confusing extension that means either perl or prolog. you can use .pm as extension for your perl files instead if that's confusing. pascal does not use .pl extension.
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18:06:07 <fizzie> Pascal uses .pas, was it?
18:06:38 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83745&oldid=82580 * Tux1 * (-136)
18:07:25 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83746&oldid=83745 * Tux1 * (+0)
18:08:05 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83747&oldid=83746 * Tux1 * (+1) /* First Method: Point */
18:10:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:100.1.142.136]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83748 * Hypocritical * (+5) Created page with "hello"
18:14:22 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83749&oldid=83744 * Doridian * (+287) Add lowercase h for numeric channels
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18:17:30 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83750&oldid=83749 * Doridian * (-281) Remove jump opcode, not in the spirit of this really
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18:24:56 <esolangs> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83751&oldid=75210 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+142) /* 1 */
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18:26:41 <nakilon> I don't see an article on this one https://github.com/Property404/hdbf
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19:01:29 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83752&oldid=83750 * Doridian * (+98) Forgot documenting pow
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19:14:25 <esolangs> [[123]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83753&oldid=67469 * Bangyen * (+85) /* External resources */
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19:45:51 <fizzie> 20:41 !irc.invalid pounce is GPLv3 fwee softwawe ^w^ code is avaiwable fwom https://git.causal.agency/pounce
19:45:54 <fizzie> I'm potentially having some second doubts about this bouncer, but maybe I'll still give it a go.
19:46:06 <fizzie> (Trying to migrate away from bip.)
19:47:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83754&oldid=83708 * Aspwil * (+8) /* Non-alphabetic */
19:52:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83755&oldid=83754 * Aspwil * (+97) /* Non-alphabetic */
19:53:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83756&oldid=83755 * Aspwil * (+1) /* Non-alphabetic */
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20:11:28 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83757&oldid=83747 * Tux1 * (-222) formalized
20:21:53 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83758&oldid=83752 * Doridian * (+0) Fix wrong channel name
20:23:39 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83759&oldid=83758 * Doridian * (+52)
20:23:48 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83760&oldid=83759 * Doridian * (-107)
20:24:45 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83761&oldid=83760 * Doridian * (+133) Restore accidental removal
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20:55:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Loris redstone * New user account
20:56:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83762&oldid=83741 * Loris redstone * (+38)
21:18:19 <imode> thinking about petri nets.
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21:35:47 <Taneb> imode: petri nets are neat
21:41:14 <imode> they are. but they're pretty limited.
21:42:13 <esolangs> <oren> Oh my god, I just want the CSS incantation for "centred horizontally but aligned to the pixel grid so its not blurry"
21:43:07 <esolangs> <oren> -moz-stop-blurring-my-text: yes;
21:43:54 <oren> oh neat it gets echoed to here
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22:01:10 <imode> what would an analogue to the pi calculus as the turing machine is to lambda calculus?
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22:11:25 <river> nondeterministic turing machine maybe?
22:18:30 <arseniiv> something with many submachines interacting?..
22:20:04 <imode> it's interesting that there's no direct analogue.
22:20:10 <arseniiv> though like in a normal TM, all the lambdas don’t correspond to anything specially defined inside it, then maybe π processes shouldn’t give submachines too
22:20:39 <arseniiv> maybe register machines or other formalisms would pave the way more easily?
22:21:36 <arseniiv> and then it might become obvious if there’s a natural Turing-like analogy and then what it is
22:21:58 <zzo38> I think that objects (including text) should always be drawn aligned to the pixel grid, regardless of the CSS. Non-blurry text should be the user setting, probably.
22:22:06 <imode> I was thinking in that sense. but encoding data structures in register machines is tedious.
22:22:22 <imode> and rather computationally expensive.
22:23:26 <arseniiv> tried generative art through SVG and Python with package svgwrite to lessen boilerplate. Made some fractal-y thing though not too interesting
22:24:22 <arseniiv> imode: that’s why I came up with generalized Minsky machines wink wink
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22:25:59 <arseniiv> (but seriously. using terms represented as trees should be not as expensive as reparsing natural numbers)
22:26:51 <imode> I've been trying to figure out what constitutes a model of "mobile agents", where there are some "places" that pieces of self-contained code can move between in order to interact with their local environment.
22:28:31 <imode> but there's this separation between the "places" that things exist at and the processes that are actually moving between them.
22:29:58 <imode> the processes need some kind of behavior, and a way to interact with their surrounding environment, but this means that the behavior of the process (its state) is all munged along a barrier that separates the inside of the process from the outside.
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22:31:30 <imode> imo "places" and "agents" should probably be the same kind of thing. but then you deal with the idea of communication between them, and all that other jazz, and it gets confusing, because you need multiple different rules that govern the inside and outside of agents.
22:32:21 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, the text box may include ability text, flavor text, ability words, and reminder text; only the ability text is the part of the AST. What might be useful is also "descriptive text", which is not ability text but describes either some part of the AST which cannot easily be represented otherwise (e.g. if the mana cost or subtypes won't fit in those spaces) or something external to the game which normally affects it
22:33:38 <zzo38> Descriptive text is not a characteristic-defining ability, is not the "text box" part of the AST, and applies before anything else; it might define part of the card's initial text.
22:34:21 <imode> I guess my thinking is that the process/place split is inelegant because what goes on inside a process is not an extension of what goes on outside a process, and vice versa.
22:34:25 <zzo38> They wanted to reprint a card with a color indicator which is all five, but they didn't know how to do that and decided to write an ability to add that instead.
22:35:07 <zzo38> Another way would to be draw all five color indicators, but if that won't fit, then this idea (I don't know how it would be formatted) would make it so without being errata.
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22:43:08 <imode> I have a feeling that the ideas I'm thinking of lie somewhere within dataflow models, state machines, and ring networks, but I can't prove it.
22:44:32 <salpynx> if you mean abstract spaces, the agents would 'extrude' the topology they inhabit by the possible relationships they have with each other.
22:45:12 <imode> right, but there always needs to be some kind of static background to determine what connections/relationships are possible.
22:45:15 <salpynx> ('extrude' is probably the wrong word, what is the term?) The topology would emerge from their behaviour
22:45:24 <imode> generative communication.
22:46:18 <imode> I imagine that at any point, where agents know and understand how to communicate with one another, there's a certain configuration of agents laid against a static background.
22:46:44 <imode> where that background contains the topology for all possible connections. in situations where all agents can communicate with eachother, you have the complete graph.
22:46:47 <salpynx> you could have dummy agents that enforce some particular structure and are just there to route
22:47:41 <imode> but what those agents are made of, their behavior, that's an entirely separate "theory" from how they behave and interact at the macro-scale.
22:47:52 <imode> it's like taking a look inside a cell vs. how that cell interacts with others. it's two separate models.
22:47:58 <imode> unifying it into one is difficult.
22:50:45 <salpynx> if you mean physical places, that's set by your hardware configuration, and you just have to accept that :)
22:51:06 <imode> nah. you're aiming for a model of computation.
22:51:34 <imode> the rules for an agent moving around on a network are separate from the ones that allow an agent to compute things.
22:51:58 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83763&oldid=83761 * Doridian * (-25) Actually error on invalid ops
22:51:59 <imode> I guess the best analogy would be... if I shift to the left at a particular point on a turing machine tape, I end up in another "place".
22:52:15 <salpynx> sounds like is an addressing problem? How to locate = how to address?
22:52:17 <imode> say another computer over the network. but it'd be a logical place.
22:52:45 <imode> your program needs to travel along some topology to interact with another program and then carry some result back, for example.
22:53:33 <imode> what does your program carry on its back. nothing? then you'll have to leave your state "on the ground", per se, and come back to it at a particular point.
22:54:47 <imode> "travel in direction X until you see a box Y. then, pick up the box and head the opposite of direction X until you reach the place you started. put the box down and repeat."
22:55:38 <salpynx> In another tab I'm looking into the Cantor pairing function, to fold 2d coords into 1d, and was going to extend that to higher dimensions, each folded down... was wondering if there are other mappings to fold down dimensions
22:55:58 <imode> space-filling curves are probably what you're looking for.
22:58:20 <salpynx> comments above reminded me I was going to check whether that hdbf (hyperdimensional bf) link nakilon posted earlier had a sensible and consistent topology, i.e could you loop in an arbitrary 2d plane and end up in the same place.
22:59:03 <salpynx> hdby also made me wonder how you could 'order' dimensions, to incr and decr dimension in any kind of objective order
23:00:42 <nakilon> IIRC salpynx https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/4f78by/hyperdimensional_brainfuck_brainfuck_with/ this thread also had two links to other brainfuck variations
23:01:34 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83764&oldid=83763 * Doridian * (+6) Fix comments to say more than just space is allowed for int termination
23:02:51 <imode> interdimensional travel lmao.
23:03:42 <salpynx> navigating on an arbitrary graph is nice because you don't have to worry about how many dimensions there are, as many as you need, but the problem is then you can't model using any predefined knowledge about what to expect if you move in a particular path
23:03:57 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83765&oldid=83756 * Doridian * (+16) Add Channeler to language list
23:04:28 <imode> yeah.. the complexity explodes.
23:05:02 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83766 * Aspwil * (+1903) Created page with "'''Program Number System''' or PNS is a system designed by ~~~ to take every useable program in a language and turn it into a unique number, that can then be converted back. t..."
23:06:25 <salpynx> ... unless your edges are labelled with some kind of indicator of pre-defined notation, so there's a sub graph with a fixed and well defined topology
23:06:53 <imode> which at that point, why not go the reverse and embed whatever graph you want within a static topology.
23:06:53 <esolangs> [[User:Aspwil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83767&oldid=77508 * Aspwil * (+88)
23:09:08 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83768&oldid=83766 * Aspwil * (+29)
23:09:27 <salpynx> I wonder if you can get the agents to fill in the gaps and find more direct routes by adding intermediate nodes, they can fill in the gaps and resolve inconsistencies?
23:10:20 <salpynx> Get the agents to decide if it's a ring or a hypercube or whatever, so you don't have to!
23:12:24 <imode> that's kind of the idea! the trick is picking a background. I figure something like a ring is good enough, but you have to push the power of calculating that curve onto the agents themselves.
23:14:07 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83769&oldid=83764 * Doridian * (+182) Add better cat program
23:14:27 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83770&oldid=83769 * Doridian * (+7)
23:18:05 <esolangs> [[Channeler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83771&oldid=83770 * Doridian * (+46)
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23:19:19 <salpynx> If agents could have any number of undirected labelled and directed (next, previous + id tag ) labelled edges you could create any topology, just with the optional notation of next, previous, and room for tagged dimensions, as well as 'wormhole' connections that bypass static topologies, then the network could sort itself out, resolve ambiguities,
23:20:01 <salpynx> .. if you had some clever rules
23:24:06 <salpynx> hmm, all the agents would have to understand that the arbitrarily tagged 'dimension' x had evolved into a ring to use it consistently -- where would they store that knowledge, and how to share it, in order to make it consistent?
23:26:25 <salpynx> agents need to be able to model their environment, if you want them to modify their environment, explore it, and make community decisions to improve it, you're getting into AI territory
23:26:36 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83772&oldid=83768 * Aspwil * (+687)
23:27:34 <salpynx> That'll be why static topologies are good for dumb agents
23:30:46 <imode> if you pick a singular topology, I guarantee you there will be some kind of gradient related to how much state you allow individual elements of that topology to store and compute.
23:31:06 <imode> cellular automata are on one end. some form of mobile processes are on the other end.
23:32:44 <salpynx> Yes, even CA cells have an environment model (static)
23:33:22 <salpynx> fongot, how do you model your enviromment?
23:33:37 <salpynx> fungot, how do you model your enviromment?
23:33:37 <fungot> salpynx: the masamune! how can i do for you? thanks! it's about the missing queen. she still looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but!?
23:34:35 <salpynx> oh, someone changed the model (I think?), I was expecting something more likely to be on topic.
23:36:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83773&oldid=65787 * Monochromeninja * (+111) /* File Extension */ new section
23:36:34 <imode> CA cells are finite state machines in nature, but depending on the CA, they either rely on the multiplicity of nearby types of cells, or on the specific arrangement of their neighbors.
23:37:19 <imode> so they can examine their locality, but they cannot be separated from their locality. if you're gonna program anything that travels, you need that to be a part of the rule set that _everything_ embodies.
23:37:40 <imode> meaning that every cell needs to understand how a data element can move left or right.
23:38:19 <imode> I wonder what would happen if you traveled slightly towards the "mobile processes" end of the gradient.
23:38:52 <imode> you'd probably get something like a turing machine.
23:40:09 <imode> I'm imagining that "transporting your state" at that point is like moving and managing a physical asset.
23:40:39 <imode> gotta move things one by one, and build barriers that prevent others from viewing what you don't want them to view.
23:43:54 <salpynx> I had an idea of making 'smart' CA agents as a kind of game, a cell could be an agent containing arbitrary code to interact with a CA API to read adjacent cells, modify adjacent cells, and set its next position, so it could try to survive and potentially build things to protect itself (or hunt opponent agents)
23:44:56 <imode> you'll find that that's what dave ackley's movable feast machine is.
23:47:34 <salpynx> all the cells are smart in that though aren't they? I wonder if that'd help to have some number of simple FSM agents that could be marshalled by smarter agents with higher level programming and goals
23:47:44 <imode> not all of them are smart.
23:48:04 <imode> each cell _can_ contain an agent.
23:48:15 <imode> and can spawn agents adjacently.
23:48:21 <imode> but they can't materialize things out of nowhere.
23:51:27 <salpynx> has anyone extended the idea of cellular automatons to graph automatons? (nodular automatons??) They could do 2d, 3d, but also less structured things. Would be hard to visualise, I imagine.
23:51:59 <imode> cellular automata on a graph?
23:53:04 <salpynx> yes, they'd need to extend their playfield, maybe that's not as easy to translate as I first thought
23:53:31 <imode> you could absolutely define CAs on arbitrary graphs, but they do need to be static.