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00:12:49 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83774&oldid=83772 * Aspwil * (+549)
00:17:57 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83775&oldid=83757 * Aspwil * (-13) /* Truth machine */
00:18:08 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83776&oldid=83775 * Aspwil * (-13) /* Hello World */
00:18:18 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83777&oldid=83776 * Aspwil * (-13) /* Add 2 numbers */
00:18:31 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83778&oldid=83777 * Aspwil * (-12) /* Writing Code */
00:18:37 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83779&oldid=83778 * Aspwil * (-1) /* Writing Code */
00:19:06 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83780&oldid=83779 * Aspwil * (-40) /* First Method: Point */
00:19:20 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83781&oldid=83780 * Aspwil * (-27) /* Second Method: Vector List */
00:19:20 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83782&oldid=83535 * JaydenIrwin * (-27) removed self-modifing category
00:20:23 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83783&oldid=83782 * JaydenIrwin * (+27) Undo revision 83782 by [[Special:Contributions/JaydenIrwin|JaydenIrwin]] ([[User talk:JaydenIrwin|talk]])
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00:34:34 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83784&oldid=83774 * Doridian * (+28) Grammar fixes, formatting fixes
00:52:54 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83785&oldid=83784 * Aspwil * (+786) /* An actual dictionary */
00:53:55 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83786&oldid=83785 * Aspwil * (-19) /* Use */
02:07:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83787&oldid=83739 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+157) /* OK */
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02:33:48 <Guest46> I am making an esolang, but need help making a compiler
02:34:21 <Guest46> I really want it in python.
02:34:24 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
02:34:43 <Guest46> Here are the docs : https://bluefalconhd.github.io/Dragynslash/docs
02:35:06 <Guest46> Python is my most knowlegable langauge.
02:36:26 <Guest46> And the esolang is based off of Asciidots
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02:38:15 <BlueFalconHD> making this https://bluefalconhd.github.io/Dragynslash/docs
02:38:54 <BlueFalconHD> I need help with a compiler, as I hav no idea how to compile a 2d lanaguge.
02:39:32 <BlueFalconHD> I really want it to be in python, and not use external packages except for built in ones like time and system.
02:39:52 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
02:40:58 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/int-e libera/shachaf
02:41:01 <cd> BlueFalconHD: This is IRC, do be patient, people may take a while to respond.
02:41:04 <cd> Also: Why compile
02:41:28 <cd> why not interpret it
02:41:32 <int-e> BlueFalconHD: you have to tell it to ignore you specifically, that's the brctl: ignore [net/]nick syntax
02:41:43 <int-e> it's probably just an interpreter
02:42:16 <BlueFalconHD> if any of you use github, here is the repo: https://github.com/BlueFalconHD/Dragynslash
02:42:17 <int-e> Since this is vaguely befunge-like I'd look for a befunge interpreter in Python and use that as inspiration.
02:43:53 <int-e> Well, maybe try to understand it, then write your own?
02:44:06 <cd> as for where to start, a few hints: first you'll want to arrange the input file onto a 2D grid, start with that; then work on moving an "instruction pointer" around the grid, obeying direction changing instructions
02:44:16 <cd> from there, work on supporting each operation one by one
02:44:27 <cd> start with the easy ones, more important ones first
02:44:50 <int-e> The thing is, adapting code that you don't understand is likely to just not work. And when you do understand it, you can write your own and be sure of all the features it has (excluding bugs).
02:46:06 <cd> my first esolang interpreters sucked, but i learned a lot more by writing it myself than I did adapting other code
02:46:28 * cd somehow still remembers learning about the jank behavior of \ in C
02:46:48 <cd> \\ doc comment blah blah \
02:47:02 <cd> i++; \\ oops, because of \ this is still a comment
02:47:04 <cd> or was it /
02:49:17 <int-e> cd: the line comments are //, the ordinary comments are /* */
02:49:33 <cd> int-e, yes, i'm talking about the special behavior of \ at the end of a line
02:50:03 <cd> but yes i used the wrong symbol for comments
02:50:04 <cd> how did i do that
02:50:07 <int-e> doesn't work for comments :)
02:50:08 <cd> i must be too tired
02:50:43 <cd> i literally use C-like languages constantly how'd i make that mistake lol
02:52:01 <int-e> cd: so apparently I never really ran into that, apart from knowing that // comments inside macros don't work.
02:52:23 <cd> i ran into it only because i was commenting an esolang interp where \ was a command
02:52:40 <cd> so \ ended up at the end of a line, and broke the implementation silently
02:53:07 <int-e> Always write full sentences. Problem solved.
02:53:38 <cd> i think i made that mistake 5-6yr ago now
02:53:42 <cd> was a long time ago
02:54:02 <cd> `help hackeso, help me figure out when i first showed up in the channel pls
02:54:08 <HackEso> `hackeso, help me figure out when i first showed up in the channel pls? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:54:11 * int-e is just bantering at this point.
02:54:13 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
02:55:22 <cd> sometime late 2016, huh. yep almost 5yr ago now
02:56:05 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
02:56:11 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
02:56:51 <cd> ..jeeez have i really been here 5yr now
02:57:01 <HackEso> imode is an Innovative Multicomponent Drug Designer, afflicted by a severe case of the UPPERs.
02:58:46 <HackEso> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
02:59:23 <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
03:00:08 <int-e> cd: AIUI, HackEso still has a presence on freenode.
03:00:41 <cd> int-e: Yea but I don't :P
03:01:16 <esolangs> <HackEso> The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
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05:39:46 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83788&oldid=83786 * Aspwil * (+180) /* Interpreter */
06:20:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Airline food]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83789 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+253) Polyglot
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07:09:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83790&oldid=83787 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+57)
07:12:06 <esolangs> [[Airline food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83791&oldid=82866 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+141)
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07:44:44 <b_jonas> oh yeah, password change. I forgot about that.
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08:17:53 <esolangs> [[Pain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83792&oldid=82994 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+2) Added a full stop and a line break near the top of the page.
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10:43:19 <wib_jonas> zzo38: multi-colored color indicators shown as multiple normal-sized disks only slightly overlapping would be nicer and easier to read, but indeed would be hard to fit to Nicol Bolas, the Arisen's type line now that the typeline shows "Legendary". perhaps it could only be reprinted in sets with narrower expansion symbols, not in core sets.
10:47:14 <wib_jonas> "<int-e> The thing is, adapting code that you don't understand is likely to just not work." then why is copying huge blocks of boilerplate from StackOverflow stereotypically popular among code monkeys?
11:12:58 <int-e> because it's boilerplate?
11:13:35 <int-e> also.. the result stereotypically only almost always works.
11:13:52 <Taneb> Also there's reasons why code monkeys remain code monkeys
11:15:12 <int-e> wib_jonas: FWIW, even though I spoke in general, the remark was colored by context; interpreters aren't really the kind of code where you expect to copy last chunks from another interpreter and expect it to fit well
11:15:48 * int-e bonks head on table a few times to see if that fixes it.
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11:29:40 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ [a]
11:30:30 <fizzie> fungot: Do you even have a head?
11:30:30 <fungot> fizzie: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine! nya ha! what losers! you can walk your way across but that's the plan, so he was banished from zeal. a great disaster in zeal somehow threw me into this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind? the mystics supposedly despise you! i'm leaving!
11:30:44 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
11:31:03 <fizzie> You can tell from all the references to Zeal.
11:32:07 <fizzie> There was a copy of "the script" at one of those gamefaqsy kind of places, that's what it's trained on.
11:32:40 <fizzie> fungot: Is he really a tricycle?
11:32:40 <fungot> fizzie: you! take! we find! spekkio. the master of war! i've seen all kinds of battles from here, step back, prometheus!
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12:14:46 <fungot> FireFly: must think of a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
12:17:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bubbles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83793&oldid=67738 * Monochromeninja * (+1109) /* Ideas */ new section
12:19:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bubbles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83794&oldid=83793 * Monochromeninja * (+43) Sorry! I forgot to add my signature
12:21:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83795&oldid=83790 * Monochromeninja * (+283) signature check
12:21:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83796&oldid=83795 * Monochromeninja * (+2) signature check
12:22:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bubbles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83797&oldid=83794 * Monochromeninja * (+81) sorry i messed up my signature AGAIN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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12:31:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83798&oldid=83796 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) No include
12:31:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83799&oldid=83798 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2)
12:33:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83800&oldid=82646 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+133) ?
12:33:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83801&oldid=83800 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) -
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12:37:33 <river> ~200 new official baba is you levels
12:37:36 <river> coming soon, this month probably
12:38:25 <Taneb> I should probably solve the first lot, then
12:39:26 <river> yes it's a good game!
12:39:31 <river> I used hints near the end
12:39:37 <river> and some hints at the beginning too
12:44:07 <Taneb> I've been trying to do it without hints but I don't tend to be very good at puzzles
12:44:16 <Taneb> And then I put it down and forget everything I've learnt
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12:52:49 <river> I think that it is hard enough that it's more fun to occasionally used hints after giving a level a really solid try
12:53:12 <river> it just depends on whether you're still enjoying it or not
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13:19:59 <wib_jonas> does Baba is You have a secret secret secret ending, or only a secret secret ending? I get confused about which games have what.
13:21:17 <river> I think it has only got two levels of secret ending
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13:23:11 <BlueFalconHD> I have question. How do I get a esolang on the wiki when I finish making it?
13:24:11 <Taneb> You make an article for it
13:24:55 <river> just write it up well
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14:21:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Pie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83802 * Monochromeninja * (+1368) made
14:22:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qbit * New user account
14:25:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83803&oldid=83762 * Qbit * (+157) /* Introductions */
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14:35:06 <esolangs> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83804&oldid=83682 * VilgotanL * (+334) add github links
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16:09:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ResU * New user account
16:15:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83805&oldid=83803 * ResU * (+143)
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16:33:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:++Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83806 * Monochromeninja * (+211) created and asked meaning
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17:17:33 <nakilon> Github is so lame they are not incapable to implement a CI to keep a green master in a repo with 500 contributors
17:18:05 <nakilon> https://github.com/github/explore/commits/main
17:20:26 <nakilon> to pretend in from of their own managers or whatever that they have CI they made a ./script/cibuild but still break the Github Action build
17:21:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Truttle1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83807&oldid=83237 * UltimateProGrammer * (+238) appreciation!
17:21:55 <nakilon> why am I then being surprised my local folks if such as Github make this a quality standard
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17:32:12 <nakilon> I feel like thelounge is having some bad time on authing on libera with sasl certificate
17:32:20 <nakilon> switched to username+password
17:32:52 <nakilon> dude presses the pull request approval BEFORE asking to rebase; and calling the rebase a "Update branch" -- I even checked if it's maybe their term for that but nope, it's "Fetch upstream"
17:33:59 <nakilon> then I checked who is that and it's an asian girl; previous time when I had a deal with Github stuff it was an amazing idiocy about rewriting someone's library with my library source code that I mentioned before -- that time it was some black dude
17:36:26 <nakilon> so I assume they are hiring based on the "need of diversity" rather on checking if people are competent
17:50:40 <keegan> i think that's an unfair assumption to make purely from your experience
17:51:02 <keegan> but also github is known for trying too hard to be woke (overcorrecting for an earlier period of their corporate culture) so it may be true anyway
17:52:42 <keegan> these things can get a bit cringe
17:53:28 <keegan> one time i was on an airplane and the guy next to me noticed I was trans and started going on and on about how woke his company is, and how he made everyone put their pronouns in their email signature and stuff like that, and i should come work for him, while saying almost nothing about what the company actually does or why i would be a good fit
17:55:00 <keegan> https://thehardtimes.net/culture/trans-person-crosses-street-avoid-overly-supportive-liberals/
17:59:00 <esolangs> [[Pie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83808&oldid=78988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) /* Instructions */ Computational class (thanks to Monochromeninja)
18:02:44 <nakilon> I love how they say "we should care about everyone not only about ourselves" in their guidelines
18:03:06 <nakilon> and at the same time they FORCE-changed the default repo branch name for all the users
18:05:59 <esolangs> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83809&oldid=74118 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-141) Please delete
18:06:40 <esolangs> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83810&oldid=79353 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-223) This page should be deleted
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18:10:38 <nakilon> their build failed even after my rebase, lol
18:12:53 <keegan> any kind of woke guidelines or code of conduct should not be taken at face value. they are political documents meant to support a particular ideology
18:13:08 <keegan> the same people who promote these documents openly gloat about not following their own rules
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18:18:21 <keegan> i'm happy that it's not my problem anymore
18:18:44 <nakilon> they changed my personal preference about the default branch name without notifying me and I've lost' multiple hours guessing why things don't work; why do they think I need it at all? what if I love the "master" branch name? what if also name by dev branch "slave" and it's my kink? they used black people as slaves for centuries in US but we didn't
18:18:44 <nakilon> in Russia -- why should I be affected? it's not my problem...
18:20:38 <keegan> countries besides the USA exist?? whoa
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18:22:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cerberus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83811 * Monochromeninja * (+1412) Created page with "I wrote an interpreter for this. It has a wimpmode too: [https://tio.run/##nVVNb9s4ED2bv2KqPVRqJNVOFj0YdYGiwKI@dFOgvQlCQUu0zUYiBZJCEhT57dkZUrJlZYsF1jYscfjm8c0Hye7RHbW6eY6iiG1B..."
18:22:46 <cd> this is #esolangs, not #politics
18:23:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83812&oldid=83811 * Monochromeninja * (+106) updated my post
18:24:48 <zzo38> What I read, they allow you to change the default branch names individually per project and rename them. But if they did like you described, then perhaps it is too confusing what they did
18:30:09 <zzo38> (Which names are appropriate might depend on the project. Naming a branch "slave" is unlikely to be appropriate for most projects, but I cannot predict everything, of course.) (When you are mirroring a repository with another system, it would help to use the same branch names as the original rather than changing them to "main" or "master" (unless they already are), I think.)
18:33:31 <keegan> maybe we should also get rid of the word "robot" since it derives from a slavic word for "slave" / "serf"
18:34:58 <nakilon> the "server" word is bad too?
18:35:11 <nakilon> should it be "partner" or something
18:35:39 <sknebel> still off-topic for #esolangs
18:37:09 <zzo38> I think is not the good idea to get rid of the words; it doesn't help.
18:46:12 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> does Baba is You have a secret secret secret ending, or only a secret secret ending? I get confused about which games have what. => oh I hope they aren’t disjoint and I wouldn’t need to replay it all from scratch to get another ending
18:47:16 <keegan> maybe i should play it some more
18:47:37 <keegan> i don't play many games but when i do it's often because they are mentioned here
18:48:17 <arseniiv> I think now half my games are those which were mentioned here :D
18:50:56 <zzo38> I think probably none of the computer games I like to play are the ones mentioned here
18:51:25 <arseniiv> I was shocked when I learned today that blur filter in SVG is not a special attribute of a group or primitive, but a filter among other filters. Didn’t suspect that as Inkscape treats it a bit special and I get why — it’s very useful compared to many other filters which would often be more useful as part of a composite filter chain
18:51:52 <arseniiv> zzo38: but you mentioned them yourself so technically they are :)
19:00:31 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, after I left the room I thought of that, yes they are mentioned on the IRC, even if I am the only one who did (well, at least some of them, not necessarily all of them are mentioned)
19:06:45 <zzo38> Some games I wrote by myself, although not all of them. I don't know if you liked any of the same ones or not
19:15:32 <river> The pokedex number is actually the old pokedex number
19:15:45 <river> now there is a national pokedex number which is sometimes different
19:16:35 <river> there may be a regional pokedex for each region with its own numbering
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19:49:34 <nakilon> github/explore available issue labels: bug, enhancement, duplicate, invalid, question, help wanted, wont fix, india
19:50:12 <nakilon> no joke https://i.imgur.com/bhhMCd1.png
19:52:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tiangou]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83813 * Monochromeninja * (+777) Created page with "I wrote an interpreter for this: [https://tio.run/##nZM9b9swEIZn81ectYROLLdGNyMKEGTSUGToaHi4iOeIsUSyJIW4KPrb3ZPsQgrdLp1EnZ573/ug3I9YW/PllGWZKEGbSN55iqQg1gTlp2fAAIqw0eYV3nWs4fH..."
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20:13:17 <zzo38> What is the new pokedex number?
20:24:12 <river> national pokedex number
20:24:27 <river> the national pokedex has a unique number for all pokemon of all generations
20:24:42 <river> the regional pokedex has smaller numbers but only assigned to local pokemon
20:25:17 <zzo38> Yes, I know of the pokedex numbers, but you mentioned a old and new pokedex numbers; what is the difference?
20:27:04 <river> The first divergence is national pokedex number #152 Chikorita
20:27:14 <river> in the Johto region pokedex this is pokemon #1
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20:28:57 <zzo38> Yes, although I only use the global numbers myself, and the pokemon mahjong that I made up only uses the global numbers.
20:29:33 <river> what about regional pokemahjong which only uses regional pokemon?
20:30:12 <zzo38> You could play it that way too if you wanted to I suppose, although I have not thought of that, but you are correct.
20:32:28 <zzo38> Starting the game requires knowing the number of generations, but you could use a variant rule for the regional variant, such as treat it as one generation for the rules that care about that.
20:34:00 <zzo38> There are two kind of sequences possible, being numeric sequences and evolution sequences. When it is generation I only, all evolution sequences are also numeric sequences; with more generations, it might not be. (A sequence in mahjong must consist of three cards, so an evolution sequence cannot be made with Eevee. Its evolution is still relevant, but not for making sequences.)
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20:50:15 <zzo38> Do you like pokemon mahjong game?
20:53:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spidey Zac * New user account
20:58:58 <river> i have never tried it
20:59:07 <river> i don't play mahjong
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22:10:26 <salpynx> I have liked mahjong and pokemon separately in the past.
22:10:46 <salpynx> 🀣 hurt itself in its confusion.
22:11:04 <HackEso> [U+1F023 MAHJONG TILE ORCHID]
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22:36:47 <zzo38> So do I, but that doesn't necessary mean you can't play pokemon mahjong too.
22:43:49 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialCraftCGame]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83814 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+111) Created page with "The creator of several games ''(some unfinished)'' and an esoteric programming language called '''Nevermind'''."
23:01:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Maximxls * New user account
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23:05:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83815&oldid=83805 * Maximxls * (+171) /* Introductions */
23:09:59 <esolangs> [[LongDick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83816&oldid=81154 * Maximxls * (+67)
23:28:10 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83817&oldid=83788 * Aspwil * (+288)
23:36:24 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83818&oldid=83781 * Aspwil * (+67)
23:40:37 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83819&oldid=83817 * Aspwil * (+74)
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00:01:45 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83820 * ResU * (+1335) Created page with "'''AEWNN''' (or '''An esolang with no name''') is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. ==Variables== There are two types of variables: letter variables and VariablesWi..."
00:06:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83821&oldid=41030 * Monochromeninja * (+1824) /* Python interpreter */ new section
00:14:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83822&oldid=57083 * Monochromeninja * (+445) /* Sign checking */ new section
00:18:33 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83823&oldid=83820 * ResU * (+6)
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00:23:53 <zzo38> A reason needing writing better web browser software is that existing software is like http://catb.org/jargon/html/U/user-friendly.html (It is one thing, not all of them, of course)
00:32:18 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83824 * ResU * (+68) Created page with "My esolangs: [[AEWNN]] (planned to make more esolangs in the future)"
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00:37:20 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83825&oldid=83824 * ResU * (+12)
00:51:49 <fizzie> I agree, those should be unordered-list bullet points instead.
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01:28:52 <nakilon> some trivial things you want to make for years but are lazy for no reason
01:34:21 <nakilon> $ ruby upload.rb empty_file
01:34:21 <nakilon> uploading as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
01:34:21 <nakilon> $ ruby upload.rb empty_file
01:34:21 <nakilon> file exists as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
01:35:04 <nakilon> finally I made a bucket to store arbitrary files under their md5
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01:35:31 <nakilon> sure it loses the content-type but why would you download something without knowing what it is?..
01:40:02 <keegan> why would you use md5 for anything new in the year 2021?
01:41:40 <keegan> because it's extremely broken as far as cryptographic properties go, and if you don't need those properties there are better (mainly, faster) hash functions you can use
01:42:40 <keegan> it's easy to generate pairs of files with the same md5 sum
01:42:54 <keegan> this might be only a nuisance in your use case and not a security concern, but it's still easy to avoid
01:43:01 <nakilon> it's a public file storage -- what is the scenario of generating pairs of files?
01:43:38 <keegan> there is just no use case for which md5 is the best choice
01:44:09 <keegan> use sha256 and you won't need to worry about collisions (at least for the time being)
01:44:38 <nakilon> how many files you should upload to get a collision?
01:44:46 <keegan> only two if it's deliberate
01:44:56 <keegan> i think a generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5" and they will never upgrade to something not broken
01:45:17 <keegan> there's no reason to use the broken thing when non-broken things exist that are better in every way
01:45:19 <zzo38> I agree that you shouldn't use MD5 hashes to identify files; there are better hashes such as SHA-3
01:45:25 <keegan> just having md5 code in your codebase is a risk
01:45:35 <keegan> "oh we aren't using these for cryptographic purposes, it's fine"
01:45:49 <nakilon> what's the reason to select custom hash function for a bucket that I will upload a thousand of files in my whole life to?
01:45:59 <keegan> in what way is SHA256 more "custom" than MD5
01:46:11 <keegan> they are both standards available in every modern hash function library
01:46:21 <nakilon> in what way md5 is more custom than sha256?
01:46:25 <keegan> you just got it in your brain that MD5 is "the" hash function
01:46:33 <keegan> and reveals you to be severely behind the times
01:46:39 <nakilon> you are angry on your own fantasies
01:46:40 <zzo38> Fossil uses MD5, but not to identify files. Rather, each deck ends with a Z card which has the MD5 hash of all preceding cards, and then the resulting deck is identified by the SHA-1 or SHA3-256 hash of the entire deck including the Z card.
01:46:54 <nakilon> fantasies that someone is stupid enough to not know about hash functions
01:47:09 <nakilon> angry without understanding the use case
01:47:18 <keegan> i've made my case and you choose not to understand it
01:47:22 <keegan> i'm going to eat pizza now so ttyl
01:47:42 <nakilon> you are just saying random trivia that is not applicable
01:48:18 <nakilon> wasting attention on inexisting problem
01:48:58 <zzo38> Some protocols require MD5, such as the HTTP auth
01:51:20 <nakilon> I must be using the HTTP auth because I'm from a "generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5""
01:51:41 <nakilon> and probably my empty bucket will be used for a Mars mission
01:52:06 <zzo38> Even if you are, that doesn't mean that MD5 should also be used for other purposes too
01:52:11 <fizzie> I agree with the "there's no valid use case for MD5 except where it's required for interoperability" case. Libraries will eventually stop offering it as a choice; that's a good enough reason to not to pick it even when the choice would be otherwise arbitrary.
01:52:53 <nakilon> but where did I say that I should use md5 everywhere? it's just a way I index files in my bucket that I don't even immediately use
01:54:33 <keegan> but why'd you choose it
01:54:38 <keegan> when it's known to be broken
01:54:44 <keegan> and you could choose something not known to be broken, with zero downside?
01:54:54 <nakilon> you won't be even able to make me a problem because you don't have an Upload access to the bucket
01:55:13 <nakilon> it's broken only in your fantasies
01:55:31 <nakilon> in fact I'll never have an issue with this bucket and script
01:55:59 <zzo38> MD5 hashes are also shorter than SHA-1 hashes or SHA3-256 hashes
01:56:06 <keegan> that may be, but there is still no reason to choose the broken thing
01:56:28 <nakilon> there is no more sense in chosing another hash function for my bucket than in using Pi as 3.14 and a million of digits after .
01:57:15 <nakilon> zzo38 and it might be a reason to use it because it's an utl to a file -- it's good when it's short
01:57:32 <esolangs> [[Typeform]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83826 * S1(210) * (+273) creating page with language idea
01:57:46 <zzo38> Yes, but you could shorten it by using base64 instead of hex, or something like that
01:59:09 <keegan> using md5 is shoddy engineering that reveals you don't really care about doing things right, even if it doesn't cause any immediate practical issue in this particular application
01:59:17 <keegan> if you disagree that's fine
01:59:24 <keegan> there's no reason for me to keep stating this
02:00:41 <pikhq> i mean if being short is all that matters why not crc32?
02:00:54 <keegan> i didn't mean to shit on your accomplishment but i guess we both got confrontational about it
02:01:09 <zzo38> CRC-32 is probably way too short for that, collisions are too likely even if accidentally
02:01:10 <keegan> well, 32 bits is short enough to worry about even accidental collisions
02:01:19 <pikhq> sorry, context matters
02:01:24 <nakilon> zzo38 the "/" char would create a folders in bucket tree for no reason; also I like how hex looks
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02:02:29 <fizzie> I'm surprised base62 is used so little. I guess it's because you can usually find at least two more safe characters, like the URL-safe variant's _- pair.
02:02:30 <zzo38> nakilon: You can use a variant of base64 with different characters in use
02:03:32 <nakilon> zzo38 adding some custom library dependency to my script...
02:04:20 <keegan> it's a lot more annoying to implement when the base is not a power of 2
02:04:22 <nakilon> maybe my stdlib even has base64, still it's overcomplicating things for no real purpose
02:06:40 <nakilon> and yes, right before starting making the script I googled the length of crc32 and md5
02:07:21 <nakilon> and make a choice between them
02:10:44 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe HackEso's `paste should have used a hash function for the file name for deduplication purposes... but then it'd have to rename the file after the fact, because it needs to (really *only*) work for non-seekable inputs.
02:10:51 <fizzie> I guess it's probably not worth it. There are a total of four pastes that have been pasted twice, and a single paste (unsurprisingly, the empty file) that has been pasted 7 times.
02:11:06 <fizzie> I think people have been cleaning up that directory every now and then though.
02:14:37 <zzo38> Can any newer hashing algorithms which have a secondary hash starting at a different offset and then add that hash at the end of the data when computing the primary hash? (e.g. similar to having H(X||H("0"||X)) although you can do other things such as having different parameters for the secondary hash, or adding the length differently, etc)
02:14:39 <nakilon> this reminds me how people love to play in an echo chamber about "regexes can't parse HTML/XML"
02:15:20 <nakilon> because it's easier and funnier to be in an echo chamber than learn that some regex engines support recursion and parse HTML/XLS with no issues
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02:16:41 <nakilon> living in imaginary world where they've learned some "rules" of how things work and can't be assed to learn more
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02:29:20 <pikhq> I'd argue said regexes are not regexes
02:29:27 <pikhq> because regex refers to... regular expressions
02:29:41 <pikhq> instead they're regex-flavored programming languages because pain :)
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02:44:32 <keegan> it just depends on how you define the word "regex"
02:45:57 <keegan> there's also the question of whether you *should* try to parse HTML/XML with such grotesquely-extended regex engines even though you *can*
02:46:09 <keegan> but this is #esolangs so I guess the answer to that one is affirmative :)
02:46:42 <keegan> regardless, attempting to do anything tree-shaped with a regex is usually a sign that you're doing it wrong and should consider a different approach
02:47:16 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever come across a purported XML-munching regular expression that'd deal with <![CDATA[ ... ]]>, even though it's certainly possible.
03:02:06 <salpynx> computational linguists are so pedantic
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03:05:18 <salpynx> thinking they can proscribe what regular expressions are - they should be studying how real groups of people _use_ regexes and simple describe
03:08:29 <salpynx> (that's (supposed) to be a joke, just in case anyone strongly disagrees, or worse, agrees)
03:08:38 <keegan> I wasn't totally sure ;)
03:08:52 <keegan> I think descriptive computer languages theory is a good idea though!
03:09:26 <keegan> it's definitely something people do
03:09:38 <keegan> take popular ad-hoc features and try to formalize them
03:10:07 <lambdabot> *** "proscribe" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:10:11 <lambdabot> v 1: command against; "I forbid you to call me late at night";
03:10:13 <lambdabot> "Mother vetoed the trip to the chocolate store"; "Dad nixed
03:10:15 <lambdabot> our plans" [syn: {forbid}, {prohibit}, {interdict},
03:10:17 <lambdabot> {proscribe}, {veto}, {disallow}, {nix}] [ant: {allow},
03:11:34 <salpynx> ugh, I used the wrong word: prescribe I meant.
03:12:37 <int-e> it's "inflammable" all over again
03:13:03 <nakilon> can lambdabot adjust line width?
03:13:42 <salpynx> It feels like there could be a joke in there. I wish I'd done it deliberately. You can't proscribe what word I use to mean x ... or something
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03:22:36 <nakilon> imagine that at the time you were learning programming people naming 10 random languages were not naming those that they would name today http://www.softpanorama.org/Bulletin/Humor/how_programmers_hunt_elephants.shtml
03:24:17 <nakilon> hm half of them sound like dbms though
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03:27:33 <nakilon> two other lists can be found on this page http://www.softpanorama.org/Lang/programming_languages_humor.shtml
03:31:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Goglesq * New user account
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03:37:31 <nakilon> half of text on this page is written before my birth I guess
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03:45:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83827&oldid=83815 * Goglesq * (+247)
03:49:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83828&oldid=83765 * Goglesq * (+14)
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04:12:05 <esolangs> [[NScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83829 * Goglesq * (+1955) Created page with "NScript is a basic esoteric language designed to be at least somewhat unique. NScript has a couple nicknames by the creator: NS, NoahScript NS has plenty of flexibility and ha..."
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04:35:04 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83830&oldid=83829 * Goglesq * (+2115)
04:37:07 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83831&oldid=83830 * Goglesq * (+0)
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05:51:02 <nakilon> is it German? can anyone read it? https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu?sort=pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date&qvq=q:pub_title%3D%22Atlas%20der%20Evangelisch%20-%20Lutherischen%20Gemeinen%20in%20Russland.%20St.%20Petersburg.%20Buchdruckere
05:51:02 <nakilon> i%20der%20Kaiserlichen%20Akademie%20der%20Wissenschaften.%201855.%22;sort:pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=12&trs=13
05:51:50 <nakilon> shorter link: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu
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05:56:15 <salpynx> I thought I recognised 'soul' in Seelenzabl -- which seems to be "soul count"
05:57:07 <int-e> 4394 souls per priest
05:58:39 <nakilon> that's stats appendix pages to maps, it's the last page of stats and others are pages per guberniya
05:59:15 <nakilon> on this page I wonder what the biggest titles say
05:59:35 <nakilon> "souls per priest" -- interesting
06:00:24 <salpynx> oh, 'zahl', as in zahlen ℤ
06:00:30 <int-e> the final thing is "summary of all consistorial districts in russia"
06:02:44 <int-e> The total number of souls in lutheran settlements in Russia for the time from 1853 to 1854, amounts to
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06:06:17 <salpynx> Евангелическо-лютеранская церковь в России, Украине, в Казахстане и Средней Азии is a thing it seems
06:08:14 <salpynx> reminds me -- does Google home exist in Russia? I was yelling at my Google home in frustration trying to listen to specific Russian soundtrack music that it played to me first and I wanted to hear again
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06:09:07 <nakilon> there should be a town Melitopol somewhere on the right page here, I can't find it: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301173~90071677:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu
06:09:38 <salpynx> after ages of tweaking settings I got it to correctly recognise me saying 'поход' and it was spelled correctly on screen, then it's spin a bit and convert it to some silly English word and play me random stuff based on that
06:09:39 <nakilon> the right side is Tavricheskaya Gubernya that is this region https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4
06:11:10 <nakilon> salpynx not sure, but Russian analogue is from Yandex, called Yandex Alisa or something -- it's a name of the voice driven assistant
06:11:17 <int-e> hmm trying to match that with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland
06:11:37 <nakilon> salpynx https://yandex.ru/alice/smart-home
06:12:42 <nakilon> int-e not sure what you mean, that's 1500km away
06:13:26 <nakilon> but if you mean the administrative division then the analogue would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland_Governorate
06:14:23 <nakilon> so yeah, this is the proper link to the right page : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurida_Governorate -- you see there is "Melitopolsky Uyezd (Melitopol – Мелитополь)" in wikipedia article
06:17:50 <nakilon> it's here in the middle https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301169~90071673:Die-Kolonien-in-den-Gouvernements-J
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06:21:44 <salpynx> interesting, I have one of those JBL speakers that work with the Yandex assisant. The vague non-committal Google messages make some sense now if the Russian market is already covered. It's like they'd started trying to support it years ago but not bothered getting over the line, unlike other languages(/markets)
06:21:48 <int-e> so it's outside of the red regions, so it's not part of the statistics
06:23:00 <nakilon> int-e that's weird, it's the center of Melitopolsky Uyezd
06:23:28 <nakilon> yeah those green and red regions don't make sense to me
06:23:49 <int-e> red = protestant/lutheran, yellow = catholic; your statistics were for lutheran areas.
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06:25:11 <nakilon> oh you mean the map author only provided stats for regions that were relevant to him?
06:25:11 <int-e> your statistics are lutheran souls, so... yeah.. Melitopol would not be included
06:25:29 <nakilon> I thought those are just population charts and have to include all the biggest towns
06:26:04 <int-e> Nah I think it's just people associated with the church, not the whole population.
06:26:58 <int-e> Take the number for Moscow: 8251 people in 1853...
06:27:18 <int-e> Surely that was a fairly small part of the population.
06:28:25 <nakilon> salpynx from some points of view it's harder for Google to compete in Russia because Yandex was the first Web Search engine, a year before Google, and all the technologies then were built in parallel but Google has no clue in Russian language so the indexing, ranking and stuff is hard for them
06:28:59 <nakilon> or "the first morphological search", I don't remember the details
06:29:27 <nakilon> companies are technologically nearly equal, Google is just bigger
06:29:54 <nakilon> proportionally to US economical size
06:30:06 <salpynx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_(virtual_assistant) has interesting comments about Russian speech recognition complexity too
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06:30:55 <nakilon> int-e yeah but I would sudgest those numbers to be in thousands; then 8mln would be too much for that year, yeah
06:31:23 <nakilon> salpynx Alisa is one of the services that is a lot ahead of Google's Assistant
06:32:27 <nakilon> google Assistant can set a timer and tell a weather, Alisa at that time was doing relevant jokes, sarcasm, had a mood, was learning your conversation habits, etc.
06:33:24 <int-e> nakilon: nah, these are pretty surely raw numbers, single souls.
06:34:10 <int-e> Ah, I realize I mistranslated "Gemeinen" - these are communes.
06:36:51 <nakilon> oh now it makes sense, int-e here is the first page of the book: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301163~90071667:Title-and-Index-Page--Atlas-der-Eva
06:37:31 <nakilon> interesting, the book in German was published in Peterburg
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06:48:59 <nakilon> salpynx basically because Yandex is much smaller it's easier to get things done; i.e. to make a prototype of such thing like Alisa it takes a team of guy with ideas, a mobile app dev, NLP guy, audio recognition guy -- they are all working within the same building and can gather for a meeting or a dinner in 5-10 minutes
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07:08:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83832&oldid=40598 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+485)
07:08:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Polyglot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83833&oldid=83832 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+1)
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07:51:45 <b_jonas> "<keegan> i don't play many games but when i do it's often because they are mentioned here" => yes, that helps, people here often give good recommendations
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07:52:05 <b_jonas> "<arseniiv> I think now half my games are those which were mentioned here :D" => by people other than you?
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07:53:07 <int-e> https://twitter.com/d_feldman/status/1399951777051598849
07:59:33 <river> why dont we get about/esolangs cloaks
07:59:48 <river> by registering as a community
08:02:22 <int-e> AIUI fizzie has mailed staff about it
08:02:59 <Taneb> river: we're in the queue
08:04:41 <int-e> See also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future
08:06:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: one of the last steps to make the move to libera/#esolangs official will be to edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal to say "official home" again. I didn't dare to do that, but if you wish, you can now.
08:07:25 <b_jonas> putting it in the official password of the month was a good move too
08:07:56 <int-e> it seemed topical and simultaneously appropriate for the meme
08:08:24 <b_jonas> I was considering "dvd demagnetizer" as the password, but this is better
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08:09:52 <nakilon> the "normal" page of the map like this https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~285423~90057692# has the link "View in Georeferencerer" but then I don't see a way to get from the georeferencerer back to normal page, that is vital because it has the Export button... I opened like 100 maps via Georeferencerer map navigation and see
08:09:52 <nakilon> no way to now export what I need...
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08:13:53 <HackEso> 188) <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
08:14:00 <HackEso> The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
09:04:21 <nakilon> (found it, there is a hyperlink "Website")
09:11:29 <myname> iirc, i learned about df here
09:11:58 <Taneb> Dwarf Fortress or the unix command
09:12:12 <HackEso> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /bin \ none 997M 0 997M 0% /dev \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib \ tmpfs 124M 0 124M 0% /tmp \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /usr \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /sbin \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib64 \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hackenv \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hac
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09:12:38 <salpynx> I'm struggling to find a direct treatment of the orientability of a disk -- seems like it should be pretty straightforward, but the fact I can't find any clear statements about it has me confused. Everyone talks endlessly about Mobius strips and more complex objeccts
09:13:00 <int-e> Taneb: the game would be my guess :)
09:13:08 <myname> best game i ever played
09:13:44 <fizzie> 10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- The #esolangs namespace is registered to the esolangs project
09:13:47 <fizzie> 10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- Public contacts: int-e, fizzie
09:13:55 <fizzie> That's just gone through.
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09:14:31 <fizzie> (I don't know how to *actually* manage cloaks, though, even though we now have that namespace.)
09:16:20 <int-e> "Optional cloaks are available for members. These replace the hostname part with @about/yourcommunity/username, and can be requested on #libera-communities."
09:16:47 <int-e> that doesn't seem to be the way :P
09:17:18 <FireFly> I think you can just ask a friendly local staffer
09:17:47 <Taneb> I would like an esolangs cloak
09:23:46 <fizzie> I know some projects have some kind of a policy about cloaks; I don't know what ours should be. Maybe discuss on the wiki? I'll post an update on the talk page in a minute that it's now registered.
09:24:06 <fizzie> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiberaCloaks "To avoid overwhelming libera.chat staff, we are only issuing cloaks in batches." Yeah, sounds like it's probably just an ask-a-staffer thing; and also makes sense to collect them into a batch rather than bother the staff one-by-one.
09:24:20 <fizzie> Not that I think our community is quite as populous, but still.
09:24:29 <int-e> ftr I don't want a cloak
09:25:17 <int-e> I like my hostname, and I don't want to give any of math, haskell, or esolangs any particular preference
09:25:28 <fizzie> I don't know about myself, but I think my bots could do with one. Or at least fungot. If it's not "about/esolangs/...", I don't know what is.
09:25:28 <fungot> fizzie: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
09:26:25 <int-e> fungot and hackeso make sense to me. though hackeso wants a short hostmask so it's a tradeoff
09:26:25 <fungot> int-e: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... well? yes no
09:27:12 <FireFly> oh in order to allow for as long message lines as possible?
09:27:15 <int-e> and the esolangs bot of course
09:35:23 <int-e> fizzie: I guess the policy could be something like having a wiki account with known corresponding IRC nick?
09:35:47 <fizzie> Yeah, that's approximately what I'm writing up in the next window over to that initial comment. :)
09:36:19 <int-e> We shoiuld get ais523 over here.
09:36:41 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/int-e libera/shachaf
09:37:34 <int-e> Oh he's registered. I temporarily forgot that he's adopted a ninja style for entering the channel in the past year or so...
09:38:05 <int-e> ...so it's probably really just a matter of having logs :)
09:38:25 <fizzie> Yeah, I did in fact have a quick chat with him about this channel; he said he'll likely be continuing the thing of mostly reading via logs and then dropping by if there's anything particularly interesting.
09:47:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83834&oldid=83499 * Fizzie * (+2025) /* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ new section
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09:55:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83835&oldid=83619 * Fizzie * (+115) /* IRC */ Insert the word "official".
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10:20:39 <wib_jonas> fizzie: be careful, I think the cloak would be longer than the bots' current hostname. if you want to request a cloak for them, at least consider that.
10:21:23 <wib_jonas> yeah, int-e pointed that out too, I see it in the losg
10:22:11 <fizzie> Yeah, it was brought up. I still think it's worth it (in terms of the length limit not being *usually* a problem), but it's a scow that you have to make such a tradeoff.
10:23:53 <wib_jonas> "<int-e> We shoiuld get ais523 over here." => he was here in the sense that he joined the channel on libera at least once; otherwise he generally logreads and joins only when needed
10:24:19 <nakilon> it should not be a problem for bot -- he doesn't see own messages
10:25:11 <wib_jonas> fizzie: if you want an actually shorter hostname, you may be able to get one, because unaffiliated cloaks are now shorter\
10:25:24 <wib_jonas> they start with user/ instead of unaffiliated/
10:25:32 <nakilon> I wonder if there is a bot that makes daily RSS from IRC logs
10:25:49 <HackEso> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S]
10:26:06 <fizzie> Yeah, there's that. But these specific bots *are* so "about/esolangs", it'd be nice to keep it in.
10:26:26 <int-e> (funny, xterm displays a box for that U+FEFF thing)
10:26:38 <fizzie> "about/esolangs/bot/botname" is 19+length("botname") characters; anything I run off the wiki server would otherwise be "techne.zem.fi" (unless I want to play with the reverse DNS) which is only 13. So that's a net loss of 13, for the obvious 7-character bot names.
10:26:53 <int-e> (overlayed on the i)
10:27:04 <wib_jonas> do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here?
10:27:22 <wib_jonas> a backup set of logs might be nice
10:27:44 <wib_jonas> or if kspalaiologos wants to restart their logs, that could work too
10:28:22 <wib_jonas> fizzie: they're about esolangs, but I don't see why the irc hostmust has to say that, rather than saying that elsewhere
10:28:25 <nakilon> actually website hosted logs can easily have RSS format
10:29:03 <nakilon> for example, having 10 last days items (excluding current day that isn't yet ready)
10:29:09 <wib_jonas> I mean I can see some use of the hostmask for network services and IRCops for security reasons so that anyone can quickly verify that a message is from a real IRCop or service
10:30:17 <wib_jonas> but for just HackEso or esolangs or fungоt that's less important
10:30:34 <fizzie> At least fungot's current host"name" of "2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a" (22 characters) is only moderately shorter than "about/esolangs/bot/fungot" (25). I haven't asked if my ISP would be interested in delegating the relevant ip6.arpa zone, but given that they're your typical end-user/consumer/residential ISP, I feel like probably not. I've only had two ISPs so far who've been willing to do that.
10:30:34 <fungot> fizzie: but cyrus! are you leaving!
10:31:35 <wib_jonas> oh, fungоt doesn't run on the same server as esolangs and HackEso or at least a neighboring one?
10:31:55 <fizzie> No, I run it at home. Less mission-critical, y'see.
10:32:24 <wib_jonas> I don't currently have an always-on machine, but perhaps I should still make logs on my often-on home machine
10:33:04 <wib_jonas> I'm not willing to run any evalbot, I decided that's a security problem that I'm not willing to tackle in the near future, but just making an IRC connection with logs can work
10:33:36 <wib_jonas> and it may still be useful even if it's off like one day every two weeks and possibly shorter interruptions from irc server disconnects or network outages
10:34:08 <fizzie> Also I don't want to abuse the donated resources esolangs.org has, our hosting provider's really sponsoring the wiki rather than "everything tangentially related to the wiki".
10:34:09 <wib_jonas> only I don't have a fixed IP address, so I'd have to set up something to point there if I want to make the logs public
10:34:25 <wib_jonas> fizzie: oh! I didn't know it was donated
10:34:35 <fizzie> Yeah, nobody pays for it.
10:34:58 <fizzie> I mean, I imagine a single tiny VPS is really a rounding error for a proper cloud provider, but still.
10:36:22 <wib_jonas> sure, I just didn't know it was donated
10:37:03 <wib_jonas> Is there like a banner thanking them on the esowiki main page or something?
10:37:20 <fizzie> The tiny little ":bytemark" one.
10:37:48 <fizzie> And also a brief mention at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:About actually.
10:37:54 <wib_jonas> and it also has the new Mediawiki icon rather than the old sunflower
10:38:12 <nakilon> my "evalbot" costs 0$, it's within free GCP tier
10:38:36 <wib_jonas> oh nice, the Bytemark banner leads to a 404 page
10:38:48 <fizzie> Yeah, looks like Bytemark removed those /r/... URLs, so our backlinks to their website are now 404s.
10:38:58 <fizzie> Well, I doubt we've been generating much traffic there either.
10:40:02 <wib_jonas> sure, it just, you know, makes an internet host provider unprofessional when they break their links
10:40:30 <fizzie> I'm not 100% sure it ever worked. ;)
10:41:38 <nakilon> reminds me some IBM technology that our bank used... forgot how it was called
10:42:33 <nakilon> it was about superfast and reliable server mirroring
10:43:24 <nakilon> their webpage sais it's super reliable and the link "read more" just leads to a page with server error
10:44:34 <wib_jonas> https://web.archive.org/web/20180119185751/https://www.bytemark.co.uk/r/esolangs says it did work at some point
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10:45:49 <fizzie> Mhm. With a proper GA ?utm_source=... param too. I'd be interested in seeing the stats of that campaign. :)
10:49:05 <nakilon> the technology kind of really worked but servers were failing once in few months and it needed a day to relaunch/sync it after a crash and so it was really possible that two could fail at the same time
10:49:43 <nakilon> but we didn't buy the third server because they costed several mln $
10:52:51 <nakilon> it's funny how things there were at the same time ridiculously expensive and unreliable
10:53:24 <nakilon> especially considering that if bank stops operating for several hours it loses government license
10:57:50 <nakilon> oh I guess I found it: "MIMIX -- Availability protects your business from downtime and data loss. Data, applications and critical system information are replicated in real ." ... https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/public/404-page-error?solution=11871
10:58:29 <nakilon> I mean https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/gsd/solutiondetails.do?solution=11871 -- you'll redirect
11:05:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:IRC cloaks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83836 * Fizzie * (+2290) Actually, let's just create this one as a placeholder, it's not like it costs money.
11:08:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83837&oldid=83834 * Fizzie * (-13) /* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ Fix link.
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11:33:58 <salpynx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_g_surface says: "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the disc." That sounded interesting, but I'm so far from finding a proof or even a clear statement of how, that I'm beginning to doubt it's true. Anyone here know or can justify it?
11:34:46 <river> i don't know this math
11:36:03 <river> > Let M be a connected topological n-manifold. There are several possible definitions of what it means for M to be orientable. Some of these definitions require that M has extra structure, like being differentiable. Occasionally, n = 0 must be made into a special case. When more than one of these definitions applies to M, then M is orientable under one definition if and only if it is orientable under the others.[2][3]
11:36:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:85: error: parse error on input ‘of’
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11:42:00 <river> > Theorem 3.2. A closed and connected surface is non-orientable if and only if it contains a M¨obius strip.
11:42:02 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
11:42:22 <river> it's a bit weird to think how a disk with boundry contains a mobius strip
11:42:49 <river> i guess that if you travel "off" the disk you bounce back, flipped
11:43:31 <river> I think the disk is equivalent to the 2d projective plane?
11:43:34 <salpynx> right, that's what I have been thinking, this n=o disc feels like it must be a special case, because I can prettty much follow any higher n argument, which are easy enough to find. If a disc/disk is a special case, I would have thought someone would deal with explicitly and set out what definitions and conditions apply
11:44:02 <river> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/308804/homeomorphism-between-real-projective-plane-and-disc
11:44:35 <salpynx> and that's what I though must apply, a disk must be in some sense homeomorphic to a mobius strip and the projective plane minus a point, but I can't see that
11:44:36 <river> maybe it's easier to understand that RP^2 is non-orientable
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11:45:12 <river> X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points
11:45:45 <salpynx> mobius strip is homeomorphic to the projective plane with a hole
11:45:53 <river> X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points *on the boundary of D*
11:46:10 <river> so, this aligns with the theorem posted
11:46:15 <river> "contains a mobius strip"
11:46:30 <river> http://math.uchicago.edu/~may/REU2016/REUPapers/Zhang,Y.pdf 3.2 on pg 4
11:46:52 <river> when these topologists are informally saying "a disk" I guess they mean something quite specific
11:47:09 <river> where the antipodal points of the boundary are identified?
11:47:27 <river> I can see why that is non-orientable
11:48:14 <river> but that detail is not stated on wikipedia
11:52:34 <salpynx> thanks, that paper looks interesting -- the se question has me confused with the different commentators talking about whether D is a ball of sphere, and the qn looks like it was edited at some point, but that's par for se
11:52:48 <river> yeah I think the original question was mistitled
11:52:50 <river> so they fixed that
11:54:05 <salpynx> Thanks for seeing the antipodal points thing, I was stuck in an unproductive search spiral, that looks like a detail that will help make some sense of what they meant
11:56:09 <salpynx> A mobius strip is described in various places as the most simple non-orientable surface -- a standard disk sounds more simple than that, so it didn't make sense that it was non-orientable unless there was something else going on
12:05:55 <salpynx> From the Zhang paper: "RP² is in essence a disk with boundary sewed diametrically."
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12:06:59 <esolangs> [[NScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83838&oldid=83831 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) Categories
12:17:58 <salpynx> That se accepted answer does make sense now, and they are talking about a disk with a very specific boundary, which they are clear about, and that is homeomorphic to RP², and also non-orientable.
12:19:12 <salpynx> river: thanks! That was causing me undue mental anguish, all from taking wikipedia a bit too seriously.
12:22:08 <river> ideally someone should fix this on wikipedia
12:24:40 <salpynx> I was just trying to confirm what the correction should be "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the projective plane." seems like the correct verison
12:26:12 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83839&oldid=83823 * ResU * (+102)
12:29:27 <salpynx> No, that's not right, RP² is genus 1
12:30:47 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83840&oldid=83839 * ResU * (+23)
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12:42:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Otesunki * New user account
12:45:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83841&oldid=83827 * Otesunki * (+202)
12:45:59 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83842&oldid=83818 * Otesunki * (+2) The demonstration for vector lists is actually kinda wonk and incorrect
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12:48:20 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83843&oldid=83840 * ResU * (-29) /* Hello World */
12:59:39 <salpynx> I'm going to call it here: there is no "non-orientable surface of genus zero" -- non-orientable surfaces must contain a mobius strip (genus 1) , can't find a reference, but surely a lower genus surface can't contain a higher one (otherwise it would be classified with the higher n)
13:02:13 <salpynx> This started off as an esolang related investigation I swear -- looking into describing a fungeoid playfield that is a n-holed torus rather than just a torus like Befunge and RASEL
13:06:04 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83844&oldid=82672 * ResU * (+90)
13:07:55 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83845&oldid=83844 * ResU * (+14) /* AEWNN */
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13:22:23 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83846&oldid=83721 * Batata * (+55)
13:22:39 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83847&oldid=83846 * Batata * (+20)
13:22:48 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83848&oldid=83847 * Batata * (+1)
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13:30:33 <Guest28> Just confirming the Libera official browser client is Kiwi chat. It is. Hope this hasn't messed up my existing kc stored settings.
13:30:49 -!- Guest28 has quit (Client Quit).
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13:32:44 <wib_jonas> Guest28: the official browser client is https://web.libera.chat/ . I think you have to set your settings again, because it's a separate instance from the one in https://kiwiirc.com/ .
13:33:09 <fizzie> I imagine that was in fact the desired outcome here?
13:33:28 <fizzie> (As in, not affecting the settings of the non-branded Kiwi.)
13:33:45 <fizzie> If it's client-side settings, I rather imagine the web's origin-based security model is going to enforce that anyway.
13:33:46 <wib_jonas> well, you could still use the one at https://kiwiirc.com/ since it handles connections to multiple networks together
13:34:47 <salpynx> fizzie: yes, that was me. non branded kiwi settings are fine
13:35:04 <fizzie> The IP was a bit of a giveaway.
13:35:34 <wib_jonas> just saw an announcement on http://subversion.apache.org/ that their official irc presence (I don't think they are actually too much present there) is on libera now
13:35:40 <fizzie> (Especially since it lined up, what with length "salpynx" == length "Guest28" and consecutive quit/join.)
13:35:52 <salpynx> does the cloak thing help with that? Not that I'm that worries (it's too late anyway)
13:36:05 <wib_jonas> nice, this one is official for esolangs now
13:36:31 <fizzie> Android just made no channel or network official, by removing all mention of IRC from the support page.
13:36:57 <fizzie> (freenode's #android-dev used to be mentioned there, though really it didn't have any *other* sort of official status except for the mention.)
13:36:59 <salpynx> I was wondering is there any kind of semi-reasonable paranoia justified for using the kiwiiirc given all the freenet concerns about data.
13:37:30 <salpynx> freenode, it;s late, I need to stop and get some sleep soon
13:39:05 <salpynx> I am using https://kiwiirc.com/ , with the multinetwork settings etc
13:46:14 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83849&oldid=83843 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) Header level
13:49:58 <river> > once you're a group contact there's a channel you can get invited to and you request in there
13:50:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:86: error: parse error on input ‘in’
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14:05:28 <fizzie> Yeah, I got the impression that's the -community channel that got already mentioned. But I'll look into that once there's some initial list of cloaks people want. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Libera.Chat_community_and_cloaks / https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:IRC_cloaks for those who filter away the recent changes feed.
14:30:11 <esolangs> [[STACKOMP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83850 * MartinAsdf * (+15366) Created page with "Example STACKOMP program: (logo.sk) v>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>v > rstack.....v >.p..v > p >OO d v >Smpv v ^ S p<<<<< A..."
14:31:39 <esolangs> [[User:MartinAsdf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83851&oldid=72772 * MartinAsdf * (+24) added stackomp
14:39:48 <esolangs> [[User:MartinAsdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83852&oldid=83851 * MartinAsdf * (+20)
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15:39:40 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83854&oldid=83838 * Goglesq * (+47) /* Returning data */
15:42:30 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83855&oldid=83854 * Goglesq * (+0) /* Variables */
15:42:59 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83856&oldid=83855 * Goglesq * (-151)
15:43:58 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83857&oldid=83856 * Goglesq * (+3) /* Variables */
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16:57:35 <esolangs> [[Tech Support Scam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83858 * CatCatDeluxe * (+3166) Created page with "Tech Support Scam is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] where it sounds vaguely like you are on a phone call with a tech support scammer. Punct..."
16:58:59 <esolangs> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83859&oldid=83468 * CatCatDeluxe * (+28)
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17:48:21 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83861&oldid=83860 * ResU * (+2) /* Cat program */
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17:57:51 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83863&oldid=83862 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Cat program */ /* Quine */ Isn't this really a quine?
18:06:55 <zzo38> I want to make nothing up my sleeve number by sufficiently old texts, such as "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog". What other possibilities might there be?
18:15:27 <fizzie> Decimals extracted from famous constants (pi, e) are kind of the conventional ones, aren't they?
18:16:21 <river> i dont like nothing up my sleeve numbers
18:16:33 <fizzie> If you want to specifically make it from well-known pieces of text... hmm, the ones that come to mind first are kind of political or religious, which you might want to avoid for obvious reasons.
18:20:22 <cd> Alice in Wonderland?
18:20:29 <cd> and other classics?
18:21:50 <fizzie> How about: "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
18:23:02 <b_jonas> cd: not Alice I think, it doesn't have one canonical edition that you can get the text from I think
18:23:04 <fizzie> If you need a nothing-up-your-sleeve number for an Esolang article, something about the matrix of solidity would also work.
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18:23:15 <b_jonas> the same is the problem with Shakespeare or Vergilius probably
18:24:41 <b_jonas> mathematical constants are probably better in that it's less likely that someone a few decades from now will suddenly decide that your now completely innocious text is very offensive to them and all references to it should be purged from cryptographic protocols
18:26:48 <b_jonas> and it's not easy to find anything old enough and widely distributed while still having one canonical version, unless it's something sacred like the Torah
18:28:14 <fizzie> Another nothing-up-your-sleeve source might be something that's a matter of the public record, like past Dow Jones Industrial Average values used for geohashing.
18:36:07 <shachaf> The important thing is that people shouldn't have a lot of flexibility in these things.
18:36:20 <shachaf> See https://bada55.cr.yp.to/
18:39:56 <keegan> how about the dates of eclipses
18:40:42 <b_jonas> keegan: the problem is that for anything involving cryptography, you need to know an exact value, not an approximate real, and it's not clear that exact numerical values of eclipses are canonical
18:41:05 <b_jonas> or that you can always round them that way and don't get eclipses that happen close to where your rounding would flip a bit
18:41:26 <b_jonas> also they're sort of periodical which might be bad
18:41:53 <b_jonas> I still the use of like fractional parts of square roots of the first primes for crypto protocols
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19:44:58 <esolangs> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83864&oldid=77847 * Jedgrei * (-30)
19:49:16 <esolangs> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83865&oldid=83864 * Jedgrei * (-169)
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20:03:20 <oren> the old testament can be used as a number and has an established text-to-numer conversion
20:04:56 <fizzie> And of course doesn't fall into the "kind of political or religious" category at all.
20:06:29 <oren> hmm... I guess Greek also has established sufficiently-old numerical values for letters, so you could use e.g. the iliad
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20:08:08 <keegan> tfw your cryptographic algorithm accidentally generates the true name of god
20:10:27 <b_jonas> oren: yes, and the greek vs hebrew numbers are mostly the same for corresponding letters too
20:10:27 <fizzie> Is that an Unsong reference or something?
20:16:10 <nakilon> is there any French on this channel?
20:19:06 <nakilon> n-holed torus funge field sounds crazy ..D
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20:30:20 <keegan> fizzie: no it's vaguely a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(film)
20:32:36 <b_jonas> hey #esoteric community. someone recommended me the "uMatrix" plugin for Firefox browser. apparently this is similar in purpose to the NoScript plugin which I'm already using, in that it lets me configure with whatlists what scripts or other fancy webshit content webpages are allowed to load. do you have any experience with this "uMatrix" plugin, and can tell me about it, especially that one non-obvious
20:32:42 <b_jonas> hint that will save me days of suffering if I know it in advance?
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20:46:50 <b_jonas> looks good so far. there'll be some setup period, but that's normal for this kind of thing.
20:47:43 <zzo38> I have not had experience with it. Does it allow scripts and stuff to be substituted, or only blocked? What about headers? (I do have an extension to deal with headers, but making it a core part of the program dealing with sending requests and retrieving responses might be better; it can extend to any protocol and allow more to be added too.)
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20:50:53 <b_jonas> it seems it only lets you allow or block stuff, not substituted, except possibly for the Referer, but how it differs from noscript seems to be that you can allow/block based on the pair of the domain of the main webpage and the domain of the requested resource, rather than only based on the requested resource like noscript does. which means I can tell it to forbid the giantitp.com forum to block loading
20:50:59 <b_jonas> any off-site images, because it's a stupid forum that lets any poster embed externally hosted images to their posts. and then I can override that for images loaded from particular domains.
20:52:03 <b_jonas> and on the forum, those images will still be in the document tree and show up an empty rectangle, so I can load any one image by clicking on "view image", which makes that the main webpage, and images are allowed in general for most webpages in the default config
20:52:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for headers, it can specifically control cookies, and has something about Referer, I don't know about other headers
20:53:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: the cookies are allowed or blocked based on combination of the domain of main website loaded on the tab and the domain of the nested request where the cookies would be sent
20:54:44 <b_jonas> I like it so far, but I'll of course I may encounter problems weeks into browsing with it when visiting some particular website
20:57:04 <zzo38> Adding the user rules of headers into the core system can also define a uniform interface for setting language, do-not-track, cookies, etc.
20:57:58 <b_jonas> there are still a few things for which I'd like a plugin (or an option in this plugin). namely firefox has a global option where it can forbid webpages to set font faces except to the four user-controllable ones (default, serif, sans-serif, monospaced), which is nice and I use it (it doesn't *quite* work as it should, if my choice of font lacks characters it will use whatever the webpage chose as a
20:58:02 <zzo38> For setting cookies you might also want cookies to be allowed or blocked based on their name and/or value as well, and possibly on path, not only by the domain. You might also want to override the expiry of cookies, or possibly also the values of cookies.
20:58:04 <b_jonas> fallback font, but this is rarely relevant), but I'd like to be able to whitelist font faces per domain too
20:58:22 <nakilon> "giantitp.com forum" sounds like giant tit
20:58:31 <zzo38> I would like to be able to whitelist font faces per MIME type of the document that uses the fonts.
20:58:37 <b_jonas> and I'd like something like that for line-spacing too rather than font-face. a lot of webpages could be made better if the browser just ignored line-spacing declared in CSS everywhere.
20:59:48 <zzo38> Yes, I also; it is one of the things that my idea of "meta-CSS" would allow to do.
21:00:13 <b_jonas> and I know I can override the individual CSS rules, and I sometimes do that, but it would be easier to just ignore the website's idea about the font-face or line-spacing (or whatever those are actually called) property no matter how it's set
21:00:41 <b_jonas> now I'll visit some of my more frequently visited websites so I can set up settings for them
21:02:39 <zzo38> (Meta-CSS would allow to change the definition of CSS properties, including conditionally based on the selectors and other properties.)
21:03:20 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83866 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+1393) Created page with "'''Nevermind''' is a simplistic programming language made by [[User:OfficialCraftCGame|CraftCGame]] in 2021. It uses commas ('','') to separate arguments. There is no escape c..."
21:04:55 <b_jonas> one difficulty is that, just like noscript, if a webpage immediately redirects to another domain (usually via javascript but the principle is the same if it's a HTTP redirect), it's not easy to see what was allowed/blocked in the page that did the redirect, even though that's where you would have to change the permissions
21:04:57 <zzo38> Another of my idea is a nwe !priority CSS command that can only be specified by the end user (not by documents), which is another way to glboally override CSS even if !important is specified; you have to write !priority(0) or !priority(255) or whatever to set it.
21:05:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83867&oldid=83828 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+16) Added language "Nevermind" into the list
21:05:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know of that, and a solution (when it is a HTTP redirect) could be to record the chain of redirects and other requests so that they can be viewed later.
21:06:35 <zzo38> (Firefox will record the requests but only if the appropriate web developer window is open.)
21:06:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's not really enough, !important already does most of what you want in that !important in user styles are higher priority than !important in page styles,
21:07:16 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83868&oldid=83866 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-8) Changed the caption text in the table at the "Functions" section
21:09:09 <b_jonas> hmm wait. specificity of css selectors have a total order, right? is there a way to write a selector that fakes to be more specific than almost any other selector, including id selectors, but still can match whatever I want, including all elements if I choose so? if that's possible with css, I could use that to override font-face or line-spacing on a whole webpage
21:09:15 <zzo38> b_jonas: That is true, although there is still the priority by how specific the selector is. Also, in some cases you might want to be lower priority than page styles instead.
21:09:29 <b_jonas> well, except I'm not sure if it could override the style attribute of the element too
21:10:55 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83869&oldid=83868 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) /* Truth Machine */ Cats
21:16:42 <nakilon> use Stylebot extension to override styles
21:18:14 <b_jonas> what I'd also like is to link multiple website domains together so they're controlled by the same rules
21:28:37 <zzo38> You might want to match more of the URL than just the domain, too.
21:31:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, there are some rare cases like taht
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21:38:40 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if it's worth it to enable the `chghost` capability for the logger bot, and format those messages appropriately. Guess the question is, is the simulated "Changing hostname" QUIT-and-JOIN the canonical truth or not.
21:47:29 <dutch> b_jonas: (didn't read entire backlog) uMatrix is great, but unfortunately gorhill has stopped development. See https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix
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21:58:51 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/i240ds/request_for_a_stable_umatrix_release_for_cname/g048wyk/
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22:05:30 <ais523> a nable is conceptually an inverted delta, not an inverted increment
22:05:37 <ais523> so why isn't there a decrement operator in Unicode?
22:08:13 <ais523> int-e: I mostly follow the channel by logreading rather than idling
22:08:49 <int-e> ais523: Yes, I should've known as I pointed out a bit later.
22:08:55 <b_jonas> ais523: I find it funny that you are mostly logreading but join to use HackEso's unidecode command of all things
22:09:53 <b_jonas> but I understand you only did it to make a point to us
22:11:08 <ais523> the other way round, actually, I was using it to *discover* that point
22:11:20 <ais523> after going through two character map applications and discovering them to both be useless
22:11:26 <ais523> then I started complaining, once I learned what the reality was
22:11:41 <ais523> <wib_jonas> do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here? ← I believe that their tunes username is part of the URL
22:12:37 <int-e> "INCREMENT" just sounds wrong, everyone calls it a delta.
22:12:39 <fizzie> I think those two triangles are a bit weird, anyway. Because ∆ is also ∇². So they're kind of related.
22:12:49 <ais523> int-e: but a delta is a different codepoint entirely
22:12:51 <int-e> Language is weird.
22:13:06 <int-e> ais523: *a* delta, distinct from the letter delta
22:13:09 <HackEso> [U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA]
22:13:23 <int-e> also distinct from the river thing
22:13:25 <ais523> I think of a nabla as being an upside-down Greek delta
22:14:03 <fizzie> Just to add to the confusion, ∇ is also called "del".
22:14:31 <ais523> anyway, the question is, I have an esolang which could plausibly use ∆ as one of the spellings of the increment operator
22:14:43 <int-e> distinguishing between ∆ and Δ may be the real mistake here
22:14:46 <ais523> should it have a corresponding spellng for the decrement operator? and if so, should it be a nabla?
22:15:01 <int-e> Unicode is weird in its attempt to capture some semantics in code points.
22:15:16 <ais523> it is remarkably difficult to name an increment operator unambiguously
22:15:19 <fizzie> I think *if* you're going to use a pair, ∇∆ is that pair, and don't get delta-the-letter involved.
22:15:27 <ais523> I may have to resort to "+=1" and "increment"
22:16:13 <fizzie> gucharmap's notes say "U+2207 NABLA = backward difference; gradient, del * used for Laplacian operator (written with superscript 2)" and "U+2206 INCREMENT = Laplace operator; forward difference; symmetric difference (in set theory) * other symbols may also be used for symmetric difference".
22:16:20 <fizzie> I've always wondered where those extra notes are from.
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22:16:56 <ais523> oh, I actually have a defined policy about these things, and if it also means "symmetric difference" (which is also a real function) it gets disallowed
22:17:14 <fizzie> (As in, are the notes also part of the Unicode standard / code charts or not.)
22:17:27 <ais523> that makes things much easier
22:17:43 <river> <int-e> also distinct from the river thing
22:17:44 <fizzie> Apparently they are, judging from https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2200.pdf
22:17:57 <fizzie> 1. (1) delta -- (a low triangular area of alluvial deposits where a river divides before entering a larger body of water; "the Mississippi River delta"; "the Nile delta")
22:18:11 <ais523> also, thank you for telling me what gucharmap is called, now I have an actually viable character map program :-)
22:18:13 <ais523> (it's still in the repos)
22:18:31 <int-e> Oh, ∆ and Δ even look subtly different in the `fixed` font.
22:19:01 <HackEso> [U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+25BD WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE]
22:19:04 <ais523> they look subtly different in my font too, but it's very subtle
22:19:10 <int-e> (That seems a bit unnecessary.)
22:19:11 <ais523> the second one is a pixel taller, I think
22:19:13 <b_jonas> ais523: I thought the Delta as used for ∇² was just a greek Delta used in this meaning. I don't really understand why there's a separate ∆ character for it, and probably wouldn't use it. but apparently I do have a glyph for the ∆ character in my font, which is odd because it still has too few of these math glyphs, I should add some more.
22:19:25 <fizzie> You could go with the WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE and the WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE, those don't seem to have any semantic baggage.
22:19:48 <ais523> well, one of my aims is for the language to be fast to program in and easy to read
22:20:04 <ais523> so I support a lot of possible names for the builtins, then normalize them into something that looks better
22:20:27 <int-e> ais523: In fixed it's not a pixel taller but the sloped lines are moved ...1/3 pixel to the sides each.
22:20:31 <ais523> but it seems like increment/decrement don't have any more readable and unambiguous way to write them than "increment" and "decrement"
22:21:06 <ais523> "+=1", "-=1" are also clear, but you have issues like "++" meaning append in some languages, or "--" being a comment marker
22:21:07 <HackEso> [U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA] [U+2206 INCREMENT] [U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+1F6C6 TRIANGLE WITH ROUNDED CORNERS] [U+1F702 ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR FIRE]
22:21:13 <ais523> and "+1" and "-1" look like integers
22:21:40 <ais523> maybe I should just go for "inc" and "dec", although even "dec" looks like "decimal"
22:21:59 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/nabla.png
22:22:22 <fizzie> All those five look pretty alike in my browser: https://zem.fi/tmp/tri.png
22:22:48 <ais523> well, they're obviously all different, but all triangles in a similar orientation
22:22:50 <int-e> (no nabla there, it's named from the final line)
22:23:00 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/Gh3jd4K.png
22:23:55 <b_jonas> ais523: "+=1" and "-=1" look good to me, people are already used to it because that's how you write in-place increment in python and some other languages
22:24:24 <b_jonas> though I'd usually write " += 1" but the spaces clearly have no semantic value there
22:25:43 <fizzie> Hmm, interesting. When I use `scrot` to take a screenshot, it renders pixel-perfect in a "dumb" image viewer (say, sxiv), but it's very messily scaled when the same file is opened in a browser, even when the zoom level is set to 100%.
22:25:49 <fizzie> I'm guessing maybe scrot writes the display DPI into the PNG metadata somewhere, and then the browser tries to "correct" it for the physical size, and they disagree about that.
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22:26:24 <ais523> b_jonas: the spacing is important in this language, it tokenizes on spaces
22:26:36 <ais523> and it's semi-important for a user to know where the token boundaries are
22:26:47 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but here it's between tokens
22:26:56 <b_jonas> spaces inside tokens are important of course, that happens in many languages
22:27:00 <ais523> well, increment is a single token in this language, even if it's two in Python
22:27:03 <fizzie> (Is there a `pdfinfo` equivalent for PNG files?)
22:27:48 <ais523> fizzie: `less` works for basic info, as does `file`
22:28:10 <ais523> apparently there's a pnginfo in the Ubuntu repositories
22:28:12 <fizzie> imagemagick's `identify` command says "PNG 158x41 158x41+0+0 8-bit sRGB 1389B 0.000u 0:00.000".
22:28:50 <ais523> huh, is sRGB there a color space or specification of which color channels exist or both?
22:29:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe exiftool? I don't know what pdfinfo does. or ImageMagick's identify with specific parameters such as -verbose to print everything.
22:29:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: is there something specific you want to extract?
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22:30:17 <fizzie> Whether there's something encoded about the physical size / resolution. But the `pnginfo` tool from the `pngtools` package says "Resolution: 0, 0 (unit unknown)".
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22:30:27 <fizzie> So I'm not sure why Chrome would display it scaled.
22:30:41 <ais523> maybe because the resolution info is invalid?
22:30:43 <b_jonas> if you want to see everything, I recommend (identify -verbose "$filename"; exiftool -G2 "$filename";) to see everything,
22:30:56 <nakilon> which file are you talking about?
22:30:58 <b_jonas> then once you find out what you want, there's a way to restrict either of those tools to print only that one thing
22:30:59 <fizzie> I guess maybe it's going "hmm, this image has no specified resolution, I'm going to guess 72 dpi" and then "hmm, this resolution doesn't match the screen DPI, I must scale it to present it in the right physical size".
22:31:30 <fizzie> Well, https://zem.fi/tmp/tri2.png in this case.
22:31:54 <ais523> hmm, both my Chromium and my Firefox sem to handle it correctly
22:32:24 <nakilon> pixelWidth: 158 pixelHeight: 41 typeIdentifier: public.png format: png formatOptions: default dpiWidth: 72.000 dpiHeight: 72.000 samplesPerPixel: 3 bitsPerSample: 8 hasAlpha: no space: RGB
22:32:25 <fizzie> Maybe it's a new Chrome thing. I don't think I've seen it before at home, but my work Chrome has been persistently doing something weird around those lines.
22:33:10 <fizzie> b_jonas: Thanks for `identify -verbose`. I tried `-h` and `--help`, and when neither provided useful output, stopped guessing.
22:33:27 <fizzie> Seems like I should've gone with `-help`.
22:33:32 <ais523> sometimes programs give useful information if you run them with no args at all
22:33:35 <fizzie> But single-dash long options just feel a little weird.
22:33:47 <fizzie> ...oh, that would have worked too.
22:33:55 <ais523> and there will often (but not always) be a man page, too
22:34:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: also in general for media files, you can also try (ffprobe -of flat -show_format -show_streams "$file";) but for a png file it's unlikely to tell anything that identify and exiftool doesn't show.
22:34:23 <ais523> I think my usual convention for usage information is "provide a man page, give usage information on --help or if there's an invalid argument, also give usage information if run with no arguments and that doesn't otherwise make sense for the program"
22:34:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: (identify;) without arguments works for the help, but you may have to look at HTML manuals too and even then you won't easily find all info about ImageMagick
22:35:33 <ais523> hmm, i initially interpreted "HTML manuals" as manuals about HTML, rather than manuals formatted using HTML
22:35:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: wait, I forgot an important one
22:36:00 <ais523> English can be so ambiguous sometimes, that's one of the reasons to create esolangs
22:36:26 <nakilon> width: 158 height: 41 bands: 3 format: uchar coding: none interpretation: srgb xoffset: 0 yoffset: 0 xres: 2.83465 yres: 2.83465
22:36:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: there was a specific tool for pngs that you can use to redo the compression or losslessly crop at block boundaries without redoing the fourier transform and quantization
22:36:42 <fizzie> Eyeballing the sizes (between sxiv and Chrome), I don't think it's quite "assume 72 dpi, scale to adjust to correct physical size given the 104 dpi screen density" level weird. But it's doing *something* odd.
22:36:42 <b_jonas> and that same library had an info tool
22:36:59 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/tri3.png shows both side-by-side (sxiv left, Chrome right).
22:37:35 <fizzie> (The left side should have no antialiasing/scaling going on.)
22:37:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: pngtools debian package, (pnginfo "*.png";)
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22:38:09 <nakilon> the above outputs were from sips and vips
22:38:29 <b_jonas> probably also won't tell you anything that exiftool doesn't, but the pngtools package is worth knowing in general
22:39:00 <ais523> b_jonas: why do you use "(…;)" to quote shell commands on IRC?
22:39:08 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I usually omit the semicolon
22:39:14 <ais523> I don't think real shells need the semicolon
22:39:19 <b_jonas> but I do use parenthesis to quote shell commands often, even on irc
22:39:40 <b_jonas> parenthesis are nice because they work this way in both shell and cmd, so I can quote either kind of command with them
22:39:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83870&oldid=79860 * MilkyWay90 * (+199)
22:39:58 <ais523> although in sh-alikes it's more than just a quote, it runs the command in a new subshell
22:40:02 <b_jonas> and shell commands often have other kinds of quotes or weird characters in them
22:40:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, you have to put a function header before them like f() if you want to quote the contents as a shell command
22:40:33 <ais523> I've taken to using «» for quoting code (including shell commands)
22:40:42 <ais523> although even that doesn't work for some languages, like Perl 6 and Jelly
22:41:33 <b_jonas> that might work, but the problem with them is that there are both french-style «..» quotes and german-style »..« quotes which can make any use confusing
22:41:55 <b_jonas> (and yes, the french-style would technically be « .. » because they put spaces inside
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22:42:11 <nakilon> »..« looks like a confusion sign
22:42:14 <b_jonas> which makes it even harder to tell if it's a starting or ending quote character, there's a space on both sides)
22:43:11 <b_jonas> there's probably no nice way to quote any programming language, but you can often find a natural style for any particular language
22:43:27 <fizzie> Weird. It's just doing the wrong thing throughout. Even in the devtools inspector thing, if I look at a preview of the response, it does the bad scaling. (Okay, stands to reason it'd use the same code to render images. But still.)
22:43:47 <fizzie> (Chromium does the same.)
22:44:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: you could try to extract the image with some other tool and reencode it
22:44:15 <b_jonas> or is this something you want to debug to fix?
22:44:55 <nakilon> when I need to do a screenshot with details I drag the window to retina display
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22:45:08 <nakilon> if I do screenshot on a usual one it's blurred
22:45:20 <nakilon> I mean, it has lower resolution
22:45:24 <fizzie> Well, preferably I'd like it fixed. But I'm not sure how much effort I want to dedicate to it.
22:49:48 <fizzie> Looking at an entirely different image that does have a set resolution (a pretty arbitrary one, 38.98x38.58 PixelsPerCentimeter), it's being scaled too. So maybe it *is* just assuming a resolution for the first PNG (just not 72; maybe it's been upgraded to default to 96 or something) and then trying to present it with the "physical" size. But I'd really rather it just render the pixels at 1:1 size.
22:50:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think Gimp has an option to do either for its zoom levels
22:51:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: is this a standalone PNG in the tab, or inside a HTML?
22:51:27 <fizzie> A standalone PNG in a tab. But it does the same if I just do a minimal HTML wrapper, <body><img src="tri3.png" /></body>.
22:51:46 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialCraftCGame]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83871&oldid=83814 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+14)
22:52:31 <b_jonas> ok. I imagine the two can differ.
22:52:49 <fizzie> If I slap a style="image-rendering: pixelated;" on it, it still maintains the scaling, just does the nearest-neighbor thing.
22:54:20 <b_jonas> because HTML has its own odd rules about images that are partly inherited from multiple decade long tradition of netscape/mozilla/firefox emulating msie, then chrome or opera or safari emulating mozilla, then edge emulating everything else again etc
22:55:49 <b_jonas> and then a growing set of extensions, including this new one that lets you give multiple image sources of which the browser chooses one depending on what resolution the image will be displayed in which can depend on whether you're using a high resolution monitor that has two pixels for every traditional pixel measured in a webpage, which is a nice extension but its syntax is seriously messed up in a way
22:55:55 <b_jonas> you think people would have learned not to do anymore when adding features to HTML
22:57:39 <fizzie> Even if I render it as the page background with style="background-image: url('tri3.png');", it's still scaled. And not in Firefox. Odd.
23:00:35 <fizzie> And the exact same thing happens to something like https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Png_pixel_cube.png -- the image as viewed in Firefox is rendered "naturally", but the one in Chrome is scaled by... 69/64.
23:00:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: make sure this isn't just caused by some unusual setting or plugin that you set in those browsers
23:01:51 <fizzie> If it is, I don't know what setting it could be. The Chromium one definitely should be pretty vanilla.
23:02:01 <zzo38> Also some servers will try to force you to download the picture instead of displaying it, although I can usually force it to display it in the browser by entering a data: URI
23:02:11 <fizzie> My "desktop environment", on the other hand, might be more uncommon, though.
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23:02:50 <zzo38> What desktop environment is that?
23:04:33 <fizzie> Well, it's no specific one. It's just Xmonad as a window manager, and some bits and pieces of GTK+ thing.
23:04:36 <zzo38> (Also, I don't have the problem with wrong scaling on the browser)
23:04:50 <nakilon> what do you mean scaled by 69/64? distorted the aspect ratio?
23:05:15 <fizzie> No, just uniformly scaled.
23:05:26 <fizzie> The image itself is 64x64 pixels, but it's rendered as 69x69.
23:06:57 <nakilon> renders as 64 and 128 for me
23:07:13 <fizzie> I did a chrome://flags + "reset all" just to be sure, so it shouldn't be a manually enabled weird setting either.
23:07:41 <nakilon> make sure to do ctrl +/- until it says 100%
23:08:24 <nakilon> ctrl-0 resets to your settings default that can be different
23:08:36 <fizzie> It's been 100% the whole time.
23:08:58 <zzo38> I use a program I wrote by myself to take screenshots. (They don't have as many options as scrot, because other programs can be used for many of the things. However, one option that perhaps should be added is the option to control if the mouse cursor is captured; scrot does have that option.)
23:13:30 <fizzie> Just verified that it's not a PNG-specific problem. Opening a (data URI that encodes a) 222x227 pixel JPEG file renders a rectangle that's exactly 222x227 pixels in Firefox, but 239x245 in Chromium.
23:13:31 <int-e> fizzie: so that's in line with assuming 96dpi and adjusting that to 104dpi. eww.
23:14:52 <int-e> or maybe 103.5 rather than 104.
23:15:14 <fizzie> I can't believe it's intentional, I think it must be some kind of a bug. But not an obvious one to track down.
23:15:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83872&oldid=83867 * ResU * (+12) Added AEWNN
23:16:23 <int-e> well it could be a feature intended for 200+ dpi displays
23:16:51 <fizzie> I started chromium with --force-device-scale-factor=1 and it stopped scaling.
23:16:59 <fizzie> So I guess you might be right in that.
23:17:02 <nakilon> basically retina is just doubling the resolution
23:17:15 <nakilon> and disables font antialiasing
23:17:18 <int-e> and quadrupling required bandwidth
23:17:47 <fizzie> It's just that, I don't think it makes sense to do scaling like that when the display depth is so close.
23:18:31 <fizzie> Well, for now I'll just stick that flag onto my list.
23:18:45 <int-e> Hmm, my display reports 94x95 dpi, that could be fun. But maybe chrome refuses to downscale at least.
23:19:08 <fizzie> Oh, I guess another alternative would be to just make the display resolution lie.
23:19:23 <fizzie> But maybe it's convenient to be actually able to approximate physical sizes in Gimp or whatnot.
23:20:00 <nakilon> btw, recently Chrome started showing everything smaller for me both on Windows and macOS
23:20:14 <int-e> (But there's no chrome or chromium currently installed here, so I won't test)
23:22:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83873&oldid=83872 * CatCatDeluxe * (+24)
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23:53:50 <esolangs> [[Truth Machine (esolang)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83874 * ResU * (+587) Created page with "'''Truth Machine''' is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. [[Category:2021]][[Category:Languages]] ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Cmd !Description |- |<code>input(a..."
23:55:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * ResU * moved [[Truth Machine (esolang)]] to [[Truth Machine (language)]]
23:55:11 <fizzie> Yeah, the GTK UI does `resolution / 96` as the scale factor, and then rounds it to the nearest 1/64th, meaning my 104/96 rounds to exactly 69/64. Or something along those lines. https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:ui/gtk/gtk_ui.cc;l=1085;drc=71ce45f2f742ca6449749a906ce5bb9948c8b555
23:55:17 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to have changed recently, but maybe what has changed is how universally fractional scaling factors are applied to images, or something. Because while --force-device-scale-factor=1 does solve the ugly image scaling, everything *else* does look a little smaller now than I'm used to. But maybe it's not really logically consistent to scale text and other scalable things while keeping images
23:55:38 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just get used to the smaller size.
23:57:12 <int-e> fizzie: not scaling pixel images a form of hinting, which has always been a compromise.
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00:02:45 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83877&oldid=83825 * ResU * (+49)
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00:35:22 <esolangs> [[Truth Machine (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83878&oldid=83875 * ResU * (+133)
00:38:49 <nakilon> resizing glitches you say... https://files.gitter.im/5773fad8c2f0db084a20979b/YUho/image.png
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00:48:08 <cd> fizzie, have you ever had the umlbox-kernel randomly decide to hang at max CPU usage on one core and disobey the timeout?
00:48:12 <cd> because i am mystified
00:48:26 <cd> i've been trying to reproduce it and it just happened again randomly with my instance
00:51:09 <cd> can't even reproduce it consistently .-.
00:51:18 <fizzie> Not that I remember, no. But any sort of confusion/bug in the init could presumably do it. The timeout isn't external, as I recall, but handled with signals in init.
00:52:26 <cd> i'll take a look at int
00:52:43 <cd> and also doubly-enforce the timeout using subprocess's timeout option (which was added in Python 3.3)
00:53:42 <fizzie> Though the only problems with init and its configuration that I remember are the ubd padding issues, which have been sorted all the way back in ceb910f.
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00:57:27 <nakilon> damn clever thing the guy made https://github.com/kojix2/YouPlot
00:58:03 <nakilon> I've been using the unicode_plot library for a while, but he made a gem with ./bin making all sorts of STDIN parsers he would want to
00:58:37 <nakilon> so you don't need to write ruby code to use unicode_plot lib now
01:00:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Clpb * New user account
01:00:58 <nakilon> he could ask to add the binary to unicode_plot gem but it would need him to make test, debate on style and the unicode_plot's maintainer idea to have API "same as in julia" for idk why
01:01:18 <nakilon> instead he's making the binary independently
01:02:58 <nakilon> btw I don't like that the common directly and name for these is ./bin because they are not necessary binary files -- would be better to have them in ./exe I guess but I didn't see such standard
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01:06:47 <fizzie> That's what "bin" means: executables.
01:08:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83879&oldid=83841 * Clpb * (+161) Just added a short text about me so I can use the rest of the wiki
01:11:05 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/-_-p.txt <- a lot of non-"binary" files too. Also, a great filename, got lucky there.
01:13:46 <fizzie> Just an ad-hoc filter to get rid of all the boring cruft in "..., dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, BuildID[sha1]=d146dbe9a8ea08382b6c63ee7d0ebeb151f2ced3, for GNU/Linux 3.2.0, stripped".
01:14:04 <fizzie> Especially the BuildID, of course.
01:14:28 <nakilon> hm, for some files the file prints me too much
01:14:55 <fizzie> Probably a slightly different output format then. I just picked something that worked for me.
01:14:56 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/RjJc/slim
01:15:18 <nakilon> I guess this file just has three versions in it
01:15:36 <fizzie> Yeah, don't have to worry about "fat" binaries on this system.
01:15:37 <nakilon> damn I thought this thing is gone when macOS removed the power9 support
01:16:09 <cd> macos doesn't support power9 at all...
01:16:23 <cd> it supported powerpc though, that's years deprecated but maybe some devs still build for it
01:16:58 <fizzie> In retrospect, `file --mime-type --brief` would've been an easier way to sanitize: https://0x0.st/-_-f.txt
01:17:51 <fizzie> (Besides, aren't you going to start getting all these x86-64/AArch64 multi-binaries next?)
01:19:44 <keegan> man, they really screwed up by not calling the 64-bit arm architecture "leg"
01:19:48 <nakilon> cd yeah I may confuse them -- didn't work with them either
01:20:09 <fizzie> I think "leg" was being used for something though?
01:21:34 <fizzie> Not exactly easy to search for with everyone writing these "cost you an ARM and a leg" pun titles.
01:22:52 <fizzie> Maybe there wasn't anything, or at least anything too relevant, and I just imagined it.
01:24:36 <fizzie> Oh, right, I think I'm thinking of that LLVM toy example that was just like an ARM subset, https://llvm.org/devmtg/2014-10/Slides/Cormack-BuildingAnLLVMBackend.pdf
01:25:11 <fizzie> https://github.com/frasercrmck/llvm-leg
01:25:36 <fizzie> Doesn't exactly fit the "a bigger ARM" context though.
01:25:59 <fizzie> StrongARM was an actual thing though.
01:27:35 <fizzie> Something something middle finger pun.
01:30:30 <esolangs> <LdDIyJhJowY> This is exaActly the siutuationq DXisEcFIerreit hasG found itselfq ins.t Wge HwerRe bridginYg ltoZ guarkantee a smooyth transition..d.C wigthiEn hGoursP ofr cShkangDinng the topicr tQo point Sto the neOwR chat, theyg toPok Dover oXur channekls.j
01:31:10 <fizzie> Heh, been a while since the last piece of forwarded spam.
01:32:01 <fizzie> Clearly a bad siutuationq.
01:33:10 <int-e> so that's what it looks like
01:33:59 * pikhq scratches her head
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01:34:30 <int-e> pikhq: I've seen talk about the spam on ##freenode, but had not seen the actual spam itself
01:35:05 <fizzie> I can get something intelligible out of all the other words by only deleting letters, with the exception of "DXisEcFIerreit".
01:35:28 <esolangs> <xKkPIopn> Andrew ULee likeKs wsuckingF hot asiarn Zguy's diAcks and has haH jcchkode hiumeseDlf.
01:36:34 <fizzie> Feel free to do "brctl: ignore freenode/*" if you want to stop that from doing anything in that direction.
01:38:13 <fizzie> As for "DXisEcFIerreit", maybe that's "Disc..." something. "DiscFerret"? netsplit.de says #discferret was a channel over on the other network.
01:38:30 <int-e> fizzie: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27289620
01:38:53 <nakilon> 1 /usr/bin/ex (for architecture x86_64):Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64
01:38:53 <nakilon> 1 /usr/bin/ex (for architecture arm64e):Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64e
01:39:13 <nakilon> this is how arm looks like
01:41:14 <int-e> fizzie: kind of independent... I googled the second sentence
01:41:38 <fizzie> There's been two other similarly jumbled-up nicknames joining and subsequently parting, but they've not said anything.
01:41:59 <fizzie> I might +q $~a over on the other side maybe.
01:42:07 <fizzie> Hard to say if it's likely to get any worse or not.
01:44:56 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/fCzA/slim
01:49:32 <nakilon> you have 10 times more ruby executables than I do lol
01:50:36 <nakilon> maybe they are hidden by rbenv shims
02:29:12 <nakilon> fungot are you going to update your esoteric language?
02:29:12 <fungot> nakilon: but, we are far outnumbered! that frog made the epoch, your wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
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04:32:49 <iovoid21> /！\ THE JΕWS ᕼΑVЕ TAKEΝ OᏙЕR FᖇEᎬNODΕ, CHATS HАVE MОᏙΕᎠ ТO ⅠRⲤ․ᒪІВЕᎡA.CᕼAT ⧸！\
04:32:50 <iovoid21> /!﹨ JOIⲚ ＃НᎪΜRADΙO TODΑY. TΗІS CዘАΝNΕⅬ ᕼAS ΜⲞVED ΤO IᎡС．LΙBΕᎡA．ᏟᎻΑT ＃HᎪMRΑDΙО /！\
04:32:55 <iovoid21> TዘΙЅ OFFIᏟІᎪLᏞⲨ EⲚᗪORSEⅮ MΕSSAᏀᎬ ᎳᎪS ⲂᖇⲞUԌΗТ ᎢO YⲞU BY ᏞIBEᖇᎪ․ϹᕼAᎢ STAᖴᖴ
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04:33:49 <dioxide> ∕ⵑ∖ ΤⲎᎬ ᎫEᎳЅ HΑVE TAᛕΕⲚ OᏙᎬR FᎡᎬᎬNⲞᎠᎬ, CHAΤS ΗΑᏙᎬ MΟVEᎠ TO ΙRϹ.ᏞIΒᎬRА․CHΑT /!\
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04:45:13 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83880&oldid=83869 * Bangyen * (+103)
04:45:26 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83881&oldid=83880 * Bangyen * (-2)
04:46:42 <int-e> hmm, was that all...
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04:56:24 <nakilon> just noticed, Chrome added features to "autodelete cookies after you close specific website" and "fully disallow cookies on specific websites [including third-party cookies]"
04:56:51 <nakilon> added FB and IG there instantly
05:29:37 <zzo38> In C, can I prevent global variables that I am not using from taking up memory?
05:30:12 <keegan> the linker should remove unused stuff
05:30:18 <keegan> not sure if that requries -fdata-sections
05:30:19 <zzo38> (without dynamic allocation)
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05:30:45 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83882 * Salpynx * (+4173) document lofty goals for a fungeoid playing with dimensionality
05:30:45 <ais523> zzo38: global variables in C are statically allocated, so the memory for them will be reserved right from the start of the program
05:30:49 <zzo38> Actually I mean it might not be known until run time, and sometimes the variables might be used only for part of the execution and then it is finished with it, or it doesn't need it at the start but does use it later
05:31:20 <ais523> however, if they're on a page that's all zeroes, most OSes won't actually allocate the page until you assign to one of them, so only the address space is allocated, not the physical memory
05:31:33 <keegan> if you are on a system with virtual memory, yes
05:31:55 <zzo38> Well, I am using Linux so I think that it does have virtual memory
05:31:58 <keegan> if you're programming a microcontroller then that doesn't help
05:31:59 <ais523> I think most systems that have an OS also have virtual memory nowadays, although of course that wasn't historically always the case
05:32:15 <keegan> that depends how you define an "OS"
05:32:19 <int-e> keegan: but then you'll typically have a good idea of what you will and won't need
05:32:27 <ais523> on a microcontroller you normally care more about peak memory usage than anything, so it's usual to statically allocate everything so that you know how much is available
05:32:40 <zzo38> Is it possible to specify what page to use for each group of variables, and then to cancel a page once it is no longer in use?
05:32:45 <ais523> and if it's too much, figure out which variables aren't being used simultaneously and union them
05:32:49 <keegan> i'm not sure I've *ever* used malloc in all my microcontroller programming
05:33:08 <ais523> zzo38: not in a standard or portable way, both are possible in Linux (and probably other OSes) via system-specific mechanisms
05:34:08 <keegan> in GCC you can specify the section for each variable, and then you can use a linker script to put all those variables together and align them to a page
05:34:15 <keegan> and then use madvise(MADV_DONTNEED)
05:34:15 <ais523> I guess putting them all in a big structure that's alignas() the page size would be one way to approximate it in (modern) standard C, although you would have to know what the page size was
05:34:30 <ais523> but using a linker script would be the more normal way
05:34:43 <keegan> on a symbol derived from the section load address (which the linker script can also give you)
05:35:52 <ais523> MADV_FREE is possibly better than MADV_DONTNEED for this, it's a kind of "lazy" MADV_DONTNEED that delays the free until memory pressure occurs (or you unfree the pages by writing to them again)
05:36:40 <ais523> although, this seems like the sort of thing that if you were heavily using it for performance, ideally the kernel API wouldn't require system calls
05:37:44 <ais523> if there's no need to do something synchronously, you can imagine having a userspace buffer of "unimportant system calls" that the kernel reads when the process's timeslice starts/ends (not sure which timing would be better)
05:37:50 <ais523> and runs them then, to save on context switches
05:38:01 <ais523> I don't think anything like that exists yet, but it should
05:38:35 <zzo38> For example, the hash tables are only needed during class loading, and the variables dealing with sounds are only needed if sounds are enabled
05:39:13 <ais523> zzo38: if you're looking for a more standard mechanism, you can make the global variables pointers to dynamically allocated memory, allowing you to allocate the memory only when needed and free it after you're done
05:39:59 <zzo38> Yes, I know, but I wanted to know if there is a way to do without dynamic memory, too
05:40:02 <ais523> although, in practice, most mallocs will never return memory to the OS (until the program ends), rather recycling it for use in future allocations, except when dealing with very large allocations
05:41:15 <keegan> I've heard proposals to make all system calls asynchronous based on request / completion queues
05:41:21 <keegan> not sure if that was ever implemented in linux
05:41:38 <ais523> I think that in order to make a general-purpose malloc that did habitually return almost all the memory, you'd need some sort of GC that could move objects around and update the pointers to them, otherwise memory fragmentation would become too large an issue
05:42:21 <keegan> except I guess you still want something like a synchronous system call that's just "wait for the next event"
05:42:23 <ais523> I've actually been wondering about how far you could go in terms of implementing system calls in userspace
05:42:32 <keegan> (which could be a syscall completion or a timer or an I/O event)
05:42:40 <ais523> and yes, you need one blocking call, which would basically be a hyper-general select-alike
05:47:33 <zzo38> You can't move objects around with malloc though; you will need realloc for such a thing, I think. (I don't know what implementations of realloc will do that well enough, though.)
05:47:37 <ais523> when looking into the "world's fastest fizzbuzz" thing I was wondering whether it might be possible to implement pipes using shared memory, so that the kernel normally wouldn't need to be involved
05:48:13 <ais523> zzo38: well, we're assuming that the malloc implementation wants to move them, the problem is that the program that allocated the objects typically won't be able to handle them unexpectedly moving
05:48:36 <ais523> so you'd probably need to use something that was able to trace all the pointers to the objects (even in registers) to be able to update them
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05:49:11 <ais523> esoidea: a "conservative" Boehm-GC-like GC, but which actually compacts objects in memory, and just updates anything in the address space that looks like a pointer
05:49:27 <ais523> this would lead to random bits of memory corruption, but the program would probably still run
05:49:41 <ais523> and you could probably work around it by programming defensively
05:51:33 <zzo38> The OASYS text adventure VM will set all references to an object to null when the object is freed, although it doesn't move around objects in memory (but doing so wouldn't be prohibited by the definition of the VM, as long as it looks in local variables and stack also; doing so would require keeping track of the types of values in the stack)
05:52:08 <ais523> I think compilers should generate metadata with programs that allow all the types of values in the stack and heap to be calculated via tracing pointers
05:52:18 <ais523> they're pretty much doing that anyway at the moment, to generate debug info
05:52:27 <ais523> and it would be useful for precise garbage collection and compaction
05:56:07 <keegan> I know there's been a lot of design work on adding GC hooks to Rust
05:56:29 <keegan> because they don't want to add a GC to the language implementation itself, but want to make it possible for third party libraries to implement GCs that integrate nicely
05:56:33 <keegan> it's a fairly tricky problem
05:57:13 <keegan> btw that kind of metadata is also used for another purpose: stack unwinding for exceptions
05:57:26 <ais523> although, I'm not as sure that that's necessary
05:57:46 <ais523> I had a great idea to save executable size, which is to determine the stack unwind rules via static analysis of the executable
05:58:06 <ais523> and to make small adjustments to opcodes in order to ensure that the analysis would produce the right result
05:58:13 <ais523> (and to mark things like catch blocks)
05:58:31 <keegan> well you can definitely implement exception semantics without stack unwinding, by transforming to a sum type. but it loses performance in the non-exceptional case
05:58:33 <ais523> at least in x86, lots of asm instructions have multiple possible encodings, which let you put that sort of metadata there
05:58:36 <keegan> now that's an interesting idea
05:59:04 <keegan> the idea of "constrain your compiler output so it's statically analyzable" also shows up in other places
05:59:15 <keegan> like various sandboxing schemes
05:59:32 <keegan> Google's NaCl and other stuff
05:59:47 <keegan> running untrusted native code by checking that it conforms to a restricted subset that has statically analyzable control flow
05:59:56 <ais523> most notably, mov register, register has a spare bit, and the REX prefix is very common and has a spare bit (rex.x) in the majority of places it's used
06:00:54 <int-e> ais523: but do you really want to rely on that freedom?
06:01:34 <shachaf> Is Windows SEH a better system than Unix signal handlers?
06:01:35 <ais523> int-e: in both these locations, the two commands are specced as equivalent, so Intel/AMD couldn't break the equivalence in a future processor revision without breaking existing programs
06:02:20 <ais523> so the only issue would be if you wanted to use the spare bits for two different purposes, and I think it'd be up to the executable format to decide which meaning it wanted
06:02:27 <zzo38> There are VM codes for such statically analyzable with sandboxing too, though
06:02:32 <shachaf> They could recommend one encoding, though, and give it better performance.
06:02:44 <int-e> it works for fingerprinting software because there's a lot of code to work with... I don't see it working when you have to cram a fixed amount of information into the code.
06:03:02 <ais523> shachaf: this seems unlikely to happen in practice, because the spare bits are a consequence of making the encodings orthogonal
06:03:03 <int-e> fingerprinting->watermarking
06:03:20 <ais523> so the reason they're there in the first place is because it was more performant to do that than to give them a meaning
06:03:37 <shachaf> What would a really good system be for the things that signal handlers and SEH are used for?
06:03:44 <ais523> int-e: well, the amount of information you need for unwind, that isn't in the code already, is basically zero
06:03:46 <int-e> ais523: I'm really more worried about not having enough degrees of freedom to express the information you'd need for GC.
06:04:04 <ais523> oh, with GC it'd be way worse, you probably wouldn't have enough for that
06:04:07 <ais523> I was just thinking about unwinding
06:04:21 <int-e> And of course there's the question whether you want to have half of a disassembler as part of doing GC.
06:04:39 <zzo38> Although, some VM codes are not statically analyzable, but that will only mean that JIT is difficult; depending on the specific VM codes, stuff such as moving around objects automatically might still be possible
06:05:02 <int-e> or stack unwinding for that matter
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06:06:19 <ais523> well, a decently accurate algorithm for unwinding on a caller-cleans ABI looks something like "run through the program, executing only unconditional jumps, pushes/pops, returns, and anything that mentions the stack pointer"
06:07:20 <ais523> the only common operation that misses is spills
06:08:10 <zzo38> I don't know if it will work unless the program is written in that way, in which case it will work.
06:08:40 <ais523> and I was thinking about this in combination with an ABI where spills were noticeably different from "regular" local variable access (accessing a different part of memory, so that local variable out-of-bounds wouldn't overwrite spilled data)
06:09:31 <ais523> fwiw, nowadays I think of function calls and returns as a spill of the instruction pointer, it seems to map perfectly into the normal register spilling in the function prolog/epilog
06:10:04 <ais523> the calling function doesn't get to use the instruction pointer because the called function needs to use it, so you have to spill it
06:10:44 <shachaf> Some architectures put the return address in a register instead of on the stack, right?
06:11:22 <int-e> yeah, link register
06:11:30 <ais523> yes, but you need to spill the register in order to make more than one call
06:12:07 <ais523> actually, modern x86 does that too, but only for userspace→kernelspace `syscall`s
06:12:11 <shachaf> Right, but then it's even more just like regular register spilling.
06:12:33 <shachaf> Just a caller-save register.
06:12:40 <ais523> (I think the reason is that is that it saves you from needing to figure out which stack you're using and what's allowed to access it)
06:13:25 <ais523> this is why syscalls on Linux clobber two registers, incidentally, it's because those registers were used to spill IP and flags during the syscall process
06:13:26 <int-e> shachaf: Haha, it's not at all clear who owns the value in the link register...
06:13:59 <int-e> I thought since the caller sets it, it belongs to the caller, so it would be callee-saved.
06:14:01 <ais523> it's call-preserved for obvious reasons, thus it must be technically owned by the caller
06:14:23 <ais523> (although of course the callee can use it for other things temporarily as long as it restores the value)
06:16:34 <ais523> I guess one benefit of using a link register is that it means that the processor doesn't have to understand the stack at the hardware level
06:16:48 <ais523> although, I think hardware-accelerated stacks make a lot of sense for all but the very simplest processors
06:17:12 <shachaf> I guess call stacks specifically have acceleration anyway, right.
06:17:32 <shachaf> Though maybe that's entirely separate from the actual memory stack, just matching call and return instructions?
06:17:41 <shachaf> I assume the main reason is to help the branch predictor.
06:17:55 <ais523> I think both Intel and AMD have a separate predictor in the hardware whose job is to predict the value of %rsp, that runs ahead of the main predictors
06:18:18 <shachaf> Oh, that's not the kind I was thinking about.
06:18:22 <ais523> and they also have an internal stack that stores the addresses of the last few unreturned call instructions to be executed
06:18:30 <ais523> which is used to predict where a return instruction goes
06:18:50 <ais523> (but the value needs to be read from memory anyway, just in case someone modified the stack in between the call and return)
06:19:34 <ais523> IIRC something related to Spectre/Meltdown meant that there was some scenario in which you had to intentionally overflow that stack for security reasons
06:19:59 <ais523> in order to overwrite any value an attacker might have put in there (which might cause speculative execution to something that shouldn't be speculatively executed)
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06:22:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83883&oldid=83799 * Otesunki * (+1810) testing tables
06:23:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83884&oldid=83883 * Otesunki * (-2) fix
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06:27:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83885&oldid=83884 * Otesunki * (-2)
06:27:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83886&oldid=83885 * Otesunki * (+17)
06:28:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83887&oldid=83886 * Otesunki * (-1823)
06:33:22 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83888 * Otesunki * (+2006) Inital Commit
06:37:09 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83889&oldid=83888 * Otesunki * (+513)
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07:26:05 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/int-e libera/shachaf
07:26:10 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
07:26:13 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: filtered" (to list), "brctl: filter regex" (to add) or "brctl: unfilter regex" (to remove)
07:26:19 <esolangs> brctl: Filter expressions: /!\\
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07:27:26 <b_jonas> brctl: filter regex (/|⧸|／)(!|！|︕)(\\|﹨|⧵)
07:27:26 <esolangs> brctl: no spaces in regexen, it would be too confusing
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07:29:15 <b_jonas> brctl: filter (/|⧸|／)(!|！|ⵑ|︕)(\\|﹨|＼|⧵)
07:29:26 <esolangs> brctl: Filter expressions: (/|⧸|／)(!|！|ⵑ|︕)(\\|﹨|＼|⧵) /!\\
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07:32:55 <nakilon> that's what unicode is for
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07:38:35 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83890&oldid=83889 * Otesunki * (+9)
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07:41:09 <b_jonas> ais523: well those are some scary eso-ideas
07:47:30 <b_jonas> ais523: on the practical side, the big advantage of Linux and C ecosystem is that most of the libraries are compiled in a way that has a fixed ABI and you'll be able to use the same binary without recompiling forever. (the rust guys are trying to work hard to break this, though perhaps that'll change in the future like on MSVC, but even in a rust library you could add a definite C ABI interface that you
07:47:36 <b_jonas> export and then import with another smaller rust "header" library that you do have to recompile.) that makes it hard to try to do something like that garbage collection that requires every piece of code in your executable to adhere to some new ABI convention like that unwinding markings.
07:49:59 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83891&oldid=83890 * Otesunki * (+44)
07:50:50 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83892&oldid=83891 * Otesunki * (-2) /* Instructions */
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07:51:24 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83893&oldid=83892 * Otesunki * (-16) /* Instructions */
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07:57:01 <b_jonas> I consider this assuming benevolence: let's say that rust doesn't have a stable ABI yet because it's a young language and they don't want to commit themselves to a bad ABI while the language is still evolving, because they might regret that later.
07:57:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Bangyen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83894 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+83) Created page with "whoa i've only made this wiki today and ppl made interpreters/compilers for it wow."
07:57:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83895&oldid=83894 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-83) Blanked the page
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07:58:35 <b_jonas> so for now, if you really want a fixed ABI, you have to explicitly define and export a C ABI, and import it from another crate. sort of like what you could do to have a binary that you don't have to recompile for a C++ library in Windows MSVC, back when MSVC broke the C++ ABI more often. though the situation isn't quite analogous to C++, so don't try to take that metaphor too far.
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07:59:07 <nakilon> wow that Bangyen dude implemented >30 interpreters
07:59:14 <b_jonas> and yes, I do sometimes say that rust is to C++ as zig is to C, but rust crates which are relevant here are one of the things that really break this analogy
07:59:54 <b_jonas> nakilon: you mean some people in #esoteric do weird and apparently useless things with computers?
08:04:09 <nakilon> I should make one more useless thing
08:04:22 <nakilon> a translator between all the brainfuck derivatives
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08:11:19 <nakilon> while downloading maps from davidrumsey.com it's so interesting to explore how town that know had different names during being settled by different people
08:13:29 <nakilon> for example, the first known town names in Crimea were given by Greeks, Evpatoria was known as Kerkinitida, then it was renamed to Gezlev idk by whom, maybe tatars that were owners of it for most of the time
08:14:17 <nakilon> Sebastopol, Simferopol, Melitopol -- the "-opol" is from greek
08:15:23 <nakilon> then Russian names were changing sometimes during the Russian Empire
08:17:14 <nakilon> then seas also have multiple names because they are named by explorers from everywhee
08:19:01 <nakilon> and that German regions that int-e helped me understand the map about -- I didn't know they existed, and some towns there really had German names
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08:56:54 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83896&oldid=83882 * Salpynx * (+43) /* Program Commands */ grow / shrink in terms of w
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09:07:45 <shachaf> Can I get off the "have my name mentioned every time someone asks brctl for the ignored list" list?
09:08:59 <fizzie> I could do the usual "add a non-breaking space" thing.
09:09:24 <shachaf> Well, I'd rather not even have my name show up, ideally.
09:09:38 <shachaf> But that would be an OK compromise, I guess.
09:09:42 <fizzie> Or make "brctl: ignored" only work via private messages, maybe that'd be better.
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09:20:06 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
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09:20:11 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list; only in a query), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
09:20:16 <esolangs> brctl: Try doing that in a query, otherwise it pings everyone.
09:20:51 <shachaf> That's good, though why is the list even accessible?
09:21:55 <fizzie> Two reasons: I think it's good there's some way of checking it did what you told it to; and I need a way of reading the list before a restart so that I can persist it into the config file.
09:22:19 <fizzie> Maybe we won't have a bridge so long that it's worth doing anything extreme, like having it write a file.
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09:29:07 <int-e> Ah... I have a NO_ACT ignore on esolangs which also means it doesn't hilight me. Yay for accidental conveniences.
09:30:17 <int-e> (irssi; NO_ACT means the messages get displayed but don't count as activity on the channel)
09:31:09 <fizzie> I've been wondering if there's a thing like that; I was going to set it on esowiki on the other network, so that all the bridged things and/or wiki changes stop showing up as activity.
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09:46:05 <tepos> /﹗⧹ THIЅ СHΑΝΝᎬL HАS ΜΟVΕᎠ TΟ IᎡϹ．ᏞIBΕRΑ．ⅭᕼAT #HᎪMRАᎠⅠΟ ⁄！\
09:46:05 <tepos> ／!⧹ JOIΝ ＃ዘAΜRAᎠΙΟ ΤOⅮAY. ΤHΙᏚ CⲎAⲚNΕL ΗAS ΜⲞVED ТΟ ΙᎡC․LΙBEᎡA.CHΑT ＃HAMRΑᎠIO /！⧹
09:46:05 <tepos> TᕼΙS ΟᖴᖴΙCΙAᏞᏞΥ EΝDORSᎬᗪ ⅯΕᏚSAGE WAS BROUGHΤ TO YOU BY ᒪIВERA․СНAT ᏚТАFᖴ
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10:27:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83897&oldid=83873 * Otesunki * (+14) Added RAMDISP
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10:28:41 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83898&oldid=83893 * Otesunki * (-2) if Otesunki.stupid: Otesunki.scream()
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10:35:36 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83899&oldid=83898 * Otesunki * (+175)
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10:39:58 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83900&oldid=83899 * Otesunki * (+22) /* Instructions */
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10:46:42 <esolangs> [[PEWWWWW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83901 * Monochromeninja * (+2652) Unfinished. Only contribute if you know what you're doing!
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12:06:39 <esolangs> [[Tech Support Scam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83902&oldid=83858 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Truth machine */ Fix
12:08:16 <esolangs> [[Stoplight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83903&oldid=82416 * Jedgrei * (-29) It's not turing complete
12:09:21 <fizzie> [Re wiki-change:] I agree it's not, but I don't think it's really an OISC either.
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12:27:12 <esolangs> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83904&oldid=83859 * CatCatDeluxe * (-19)
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12:31:24 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83905&oldid=83819 * Aspwil * (+821) /* Notes */
12:48:31 <nakilon> as I asid, brctl could respond in private or notice
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12:56:35 <fizzie> I don't like bots responding in private when the trigger was public. But in any case the listing is now private-only.
13:22:15 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83906&oldid=83896 * Salpynx * (+129) /* Program Commands */ accumulator deltas
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13:43:42 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83907&oldid=83906 * Salpynx * (+43) /* Program Commands */ define x
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14:57:06 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83908&oldid=83905 * Aspwil * (+309) /* Syntax */
14:59:19 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83909&oldid=83908 * Aspwil * (+29) /* Notes */
15:04:36 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83910&oldid=83909 * Aspwil * (+426) /* Notes */
15:05:37 <wib_jonas> .oO(if only that occured to Gödel)
15:06:28 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83911&oldid=83910 * Aspwil * (+135) /* An Actual Dictionary */
15:07:55 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83912&oldid=83911 * Aspwil * (-5) /* Example */
15:08:49 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83913&oldid=83912 * Aspwil * (+16) /* Example */
15:09:06 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83914&oldid=83913 * Aspwil * (+0) /* Syntax */
15:15:42 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83915&oldid=80702 * Aspwil * (+27)
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15:27:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Salpynx/Braneflage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83916 * Aspwil * (+147) Created page with "this is a really interesting idea, I would love to see it be completed. ~~~~"
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15:49:49 <esolangs> [[Stoplight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83917&oldid=83903 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+321) Implement
15:54:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MathR * New user account
16:01:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83918&oldid=83879 * MathR * (+138) /* Introductions */
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16:13:43 <esolangs> [[User:MathR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83919 * MathR * (+40) Created page with "Hi I'm '''MathR''' and ''I like bread''."
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16:47:23 <b_jonas> there'll be a fun second wave starting around 2021-07-27 when all the libera nicks grabbed by the gold rush folks start to expire, and #libera will be overloaded by requests by other users to usurp them
16:53:26 <b_jonas> ok, so I have a silly question. suppose I want to render the logs of this channel in HTML, and want to assign a unique class to every nick so that I can assign unique full depth colors to them (and readers can customize those colors easily in browser side). should I use the nicks in the class names as is, which is valid but requires you to escape some characters in CSS, or should I translate the
16:53:32 <b_jonas> brackets and backslashes to letters according to some ISO-646 character set? and if the latter, should it be the finnish or the norwegian? what ISO-646 character set does New Zealand use?
16:54:55 <fizzie> I would say the Finnish, but I'm obviously biased.
16:57:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: what do I do with a "^" then?
16:57:10 <fizzie> Would you also lowercase them with the network's CASEMAPPING=rfc1459 rules, or just distinguish between case?
16:57:24 <b_jonas> ah, apparently you can map that to ü
16:57:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: I would make them case insensitive as in nicks that fold the same get the same class, but probably preserve the latest case that appears in the log in the class name
16:58:16 <b_jonas> if I want to support user style overrides then that won't work
16:58:23 <b_jonas> then I'll just casefold them all to uppercase
16:59:24 <fizzie> I don't think its ü in ISO-646-FI proper, but I think it's all pretty flexible.
16:59:28 <fizzie> `` echo '[\]^{|}~' | iconv -f iso646-fi -t utf-8
17:01:01 <fizzie> I think it's odd that Libera.Chat (the modern network) uses CASEMAPPING=rfc1459, while IRCnet (the agressively non-modern network that doesn't do services, and has half the open TLS-capable servers using expired certificates) uses CASEMAPPING=ascii.
17:01:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: freenode used to do ascii, but they changed it when they changed the irc software
17:02:17 <b_jonas> I don't know what they did to nick/channel registrations that clashed after
17:05:01 <fizzie> I did a survey of ircnet.clue.be, ircnet.hostsailor.com, ssl.irc.atw-inter.net, irc.swepipe.net and openirc.snt.utwente.nl in preparation of maybe switching to an opinionated TLS-only bouncer. The first two have a valid Let's Encrypt cert, but the third has a self-signed (though not expired) certificate, the fourth had a Let's Encrypt certificate for a completely different DNS name that had expired two
17:05:07 <fizzie> days ago, and the fifth had a Digicert-issued certificate that had expired in Sep 2020.
17:05:23 <fizzie> The last one also just closed the connection after TLS negotiation.
17:05:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: are those all ircnet servers?
17:06:08 <fizzie> I picked them from http://irc.tu-ilmenau.de/all_servers/?focus=1&open=1 which is supposedly automagically maintained by a crawler.
17:06:37 <fizzie> Back "home" it used to be the case that you just used your ISP's IRCnet server, and didn't have to worry about these kind of things.
17:07:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: ircnet is terrible. it has a hodge-podge of servers ran to different specifications, even the nicklen and chanlen restrictions are different on them, which is, you know, weird because they apply to nicks and #-channels that are global on the network (for &-channels it would make sense)
17:07:37 <b_jonas> and most of the servers are closed
17:07:47 <b_jonas> and many of the servers are sometimes working sometimes not
17:07:54 <b_jonas> I am connected but I don't like the place
17:07:56 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83920 * MathR * (+1928) Created page with "'''Jumping True''' is an esolang created by [[User:MathR|MathR]]. Its main particularity is that its conditional statement is based on the [[Truth-machine|truth-machine]]. It..."
17:08:08 <fizzie> I know, but it's still "the" network for me, so I don't want to drop off.
17:08:31 <b_jonas> freenode was "the" network for me.
17:08:48 <fizzie> I'm probably on more channels there than here, anyway. It's just that they're all utterly silent.
17:09:22 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83921&oldid=83920 * MathR * (-2)
17:09:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83922&oldid=83897 * MathR * (+19) /* J */
17:10:35 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83923&oldid=83921 * MathR * (+17)
17:13:20 <esolangs> [[Binary but also Brainfuck but also neither (BBABBAN)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83924 * Batata * (+4651) Created page with "'''Binary but also Brainfuck but also neither''' or '''BBABBAN''' for short (pronounced '''babn''') is an [[Esoteric_programming_language|esolang]] where, as the name..."
17:14:59 <oerjan> b_jonas: in my entirely unbiased opinion you should go with norwegian hth
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17:16:43 <oerjan> . o O ( BBABBAN IS YOU )
17:19:12 <fizzie> BBABBAN, is that like one of those rhyme schemes?
17:19:57 <fizzie> I guess usually it'd be written AABAABC though.
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17:33:24 <esolangs> [[User:MathR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83925&oldid=83919 * MathR * (+28)
17:34:06 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83926&oldid=83923 * MathR * (+4) /* Language overview */
17:34:26 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83927&oldid=83848 * Batata * (+65)
17:34:35 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83928&oldid=83927 * Batata * (+1)
17:35:23 <river> I feel like this is slightly esoteric
17:36:29 <river> if you take length 10 binary strings (there's 1024 of them), 0000 occurs in 251 of them, 0101 occurs in 357 of them, 0011 occurs in 424 of them
17:37:06 <river> rephrased: flip a coin 10 times, how likely are you to get heads 4 times in a row? (about 25% chance) How likely are you to get heads heads tails tails (about 50% chance)
17:39:15 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83929&oldid=83926 * MathR * (+73)
17:39:25 <oerjan> > 424 / 1024 -- sounds a bit high
17:39:47 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83930&oldid=83929 * MathR * (-1) /* Language overview */
17:40:54 <river> the fact these probabilities are different at all is pretty striking to me!
17:41:00 <river> I found this highly unintuitive
17:42:23 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83931&oldid=83930 * MathR * (+6) /* Examples */
17:44:55 <oerjan> river: i think it's related to the fact that some of those allow more simultaneous occurrences. like 0000000000 contains 0000 at 7 different spots
17:45:12 <oerjan> but you cannot have that many at once for 0011 or 0101
17:46:06 <river> yeah I think it is!
17:46:09 <oerjan> if you count the occurrences, i think it gets even
17:46:21 <river> autocorrelation factor of 0000 is full, 0101 is half, 0011 is none
17:46:50 <river> ah let me try that out
17:46:57 <esolangs> [[Typeform]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83932&oldid=83826 * S1(210) * (+18)
17:47:27 <esolangs> [[Typeform]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83933&oldid=83932 * S1(210) * (+9)
17:47:41 <b_jonas> river: yes, also if you flip a coin repeatedly until you first get one of two chosen infixes that you're listening to, and both infixes are the same length, it's possible that you'll more likely to encounter one of them first than the other
17:47:52 <b_jonas> which is also a bit unintuitive
17:49:19 <river> hmm i tweaked the program to count with multiplicity, but i still get different values
17:49:32 <river> they are close to but all higher than the original numbers
17:50:12 <oerjan> hm that's strange, i thought they would be equal by the linearity of expectation value
17:50:31 <oerjan> are you sure you counted all occurrences :P
17:51:20 <oerjan> specifically, my reasoning: you _must_ have the same probability of all the strings occuring in the _first_ position, and in the _second_ position, etc.
17:52:11 <oerjan> s/of all the strings/of any string/
17:54:44 <lambdabot> ["0000000000","0000000001","0000000010","0000000011","0000000100","000000010...
17:56:03 <river> https://bpa.st/B6QA here's an example of looking for aa vs ab in length 5 bitstrings
17:56:19 <river> aa occurs 23 times, ab occurs 32 times
17:56:31 <river> this definitely doesn't make sense to me
17:56:48 <zzo38> How to configure Firefox so that if the current URI is a "file:" URI that points to a EPUB file, to automatically prefix "jar:" and suffix "!/" on the URL?
17:56:56 <oerjan> river: oh i see. i meant occurrences could be _overlapping_ too.
17:57:28 <river> it's a mistake in my code
17:57:35 <river> i meant to count overlapping
17:57:35 <oerjan> (so aaaaa should give 4 aa, not 2)
17:58:06 <river> the python count function is broken
18:01:14 <river> ok! fixed, now I get 32 in both cases!
18:07:53 <river> so what does this tell us... the number of times it occurs *is* equal - it's just that if a word has autocorrelation its going to happen in fewer runs, but more times per run
18:08:00 <river> for reasons?? that are unclear to me
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18:14:03 <river> I feel like I just have 2 mysteries now
18:14:19 <river> why its equal when you could with multiplicity is not clear to me
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18:23:08 <oerjan> river: counting with multiplicity is the same as counting each occurence of the string at each position.
18:24:02 <oerjan> now this should give the same result if you do it in a different order: for each position, count the number of large strings which have the smaller string at that position.
18:25:13 <oerjan> but that is the same as, number of positions * 2 ^ (number of bits outside the smaller string)
18:28:18 <b_jonas> there are two funny probability problems that we discussed on #esoteric after I brought them up, the chameleon one and a card game
18:28:26 <b_jonas> they're somewhere in the logs
18:30:37 <zzo38> Which ones are they? Do you remember it to copy it?
18:32:18 <b_jonas> I don't have links. I'll have to search for chameleon
18:35:49 <b_jonas> I should download the logs at some point to make searching esaier
18:37:21 <b_jonas> let me see... https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2016-10.html#lDQc
18:39:47 <b_jonas> which links to https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2016-07.html#lhhc
18:52:16 <b_jonas> I can tell the problems again later if someone cares, with the cleaners proofs that we know now
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19:01:39 <zzo38> I am potentially interested in such things
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19:29:40 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83934&oldid=83928 * Batata * (+3)
19:30:00 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83935&oldid=83934 * Batata * (+1)
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19:40:49 <river> https://martingalemeasure.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/monkey-typing-abracadabra-14/
19:40:56 <river> monkey types randomly
19:40:59 <river> >Wow, the average time for the monkey to type  is actually longer than the average time to type .
19:41:12 <river> >Wow, the average time for the monkey to type ABA is actually longer than the average time to type ABC.
19:41:34 <river> does this align with the previous results? or contrast to them
19:43:54 <b_jonas> river: yes, I did mention that variant
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19:44:25 <b_jonas> I mentioned something similar
19:44:31 <b_jonas> you're right that it's not the same
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19:45:05 <b_jonas> isn't that backwards though?
19:45:17 <b_jonas> ABA should have a shorter average time to first type than ABC
19:56:50 <b_jonas> of course that only applies if the monkeys hit keys uniformly. in reality they might have thick fingers so it's difficult for them to press just one button, or they're hammering on the keyboard with their fists or something
19:56:58 <b_jonas> uniformly and independently
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20:08:07 <keegan> disappointed that the article does not involve actual experiments with monkeys
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20:25:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Glypho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83936&oldid=8211 * Monochromeninja * (+1336) /* Python interpreter */ new section
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20:33:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Justiof * New user account
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20:41:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83937&oldid=83918 * Justiof * (+218) /* Introductions */
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20:55:53 <Corbin> I'm pondering using GNU Lightning. Do folks have anecdotes or opinions? One minor disappointment is that it seems that there's no AOT native-code emitter, so any intermediate/cached representations would have to be ad-hoc.
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21:01:40 <zzo38> I read about it before; I had never tried to use it though
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21:31:47 <esolangs> [[Counting Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83938 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+1038) Created page with "= Counting Calculus = A programming language of which the primary way of doing mathematical calculation is by counting the amount of -conversions done in a lambda-calculus e..."
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21:33:26 <esolangs> [[Counting Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83939&oldid=83938 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+44)
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23:13:35 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83940&oldid=83907 * Salpynx * (+29) contract 'accumulator' amount
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23:24:38 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83941&oldid=83940 * Salpynx * (-12) /* Program Commands */ rearrange, not sure that's better
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00:00:33 <esolangs> [[Counting Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83942&oldid=83939 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) Categorize
00:02:32 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83943&oldid=83941 * Salpynx * (+2) /* Program Commands */ that looks better. Hopefully it's correct too.
00:20:52 <nakilon> int-e how does Wuste Ebenen translate? https://i.imgur.com/vbqqJtI.png
00:21:57 <int-e> Wüste = desert, Ebene(n) = plain(s)
00:23:33 <nakilon> because there is a obscene word Ebenya meaning "something fucking far/disconnected", that is traditionally considered made out of such word as "ebat'" "fuck", "zaebenit" "fucking make smth"; but now seeing the word "Ebenen" on the map I'm thinking that the etymology is not like people use think
00:24:42 <nakilon> hah, cool, because that's exactly how another map says: https://i.imgur.com/9D72Uk2.png
00:32:03 <keegan> ah so it's similar to the English term "bumfuck" / "bumfuck nowhere"?
00:32:11 <nakilon> Wiktionary says that "ебать" is protoslav "*jěbati" and is the same in Serbian, Czheh, Slovak, Pol; and is related to sanskrít . यभति (yabhati) and ancient greek. οἴφω, οἰφέω; but now I don't believe Wiktionary that ебеня is from there, because it's too close to your word
00:33:21 <keegan> found one reference to the russian word on twitter https://twitter.com/cybersandwitch/status/1285193689732718593
00:33:31 <keegan> i actually have a dead-tree book of photos of soviet bus stops
00:33:38 <nakilon> what Wiktionary says on German Ebene: From Middle High German ebene, from Old High German ebanī, from Proto-Germanic *ebnaz, whence also Old English efen (English even), Old Norse jafn.
00:33:41 <keegan> i saw it at a bookstore and was immediately like yes I need this
00:34:28 <nakilon> keegan how do I see the parent tweet?
00:36:25 <nakilon> either I'm idiot in twitter or it's deleted (
00:42:49 <b_jonas> in C, do we know what format __DATE__ will have after year 10000? I want to use it to give a likely branch hint in a date formatting routine so that before 9995 or so the branch that writes a four digit year is considered likely, but after 10000 the branch that writes a five digit year is considered likely instead
00:43:41 <keegan> nakilon: https://twitter.com/ItsDanThomas/status/1284808430167957504
00:44:03 <keegan> b_jonas: excellent idea
00:44:31 <b_jonas> I guess I could just have something in the build script that detects the date instead and defines macros accordingly, and then test those macros instead of __DATE__
00:44:43 <keegan> yes, this is the book I have https://twitter.com/ItsDanThomas/status/1285306157645660161 (vol 2 only)
00:45:04 <nakilon> keegan heh you'll never find such stops
00:50:38 <keegan> I admire your long-term planning b_jonas
00:51:39 <keegan> nakilon: I mean, I probably won't
00:51:44 <keegan> because I'm unlikely to visit Russia any time soon
00:51:52 <nakilon> these blogs posts copypasting these images made it impossible to google real examples lol
00:52:40 <fizzie> Preprocessor Macro of the Long Now.
00:54:42 <nakilon> keegan this is a little bit closer to reality https://www.goingthewholehogg.com/soviet-bus-stops/
00:55:30 <nakilon> but really it's just 1-3 walls with a roof and maybe a little piece of mosaic
00:55:47 <nakilon> real bus stop just won't be photographed and posted in web
00:56:45 <nakilon> and it would be by magnitude harder to find soviet one in Russia than in Ukraine or maybe Moldova
00:59:40 <nakilon> oh nice, the Yandex Images search is expectedly more relevant and shows some real things instead of just top-10 blog articles: https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%20%D0%B2%20%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%85
01:00:24 <nakilon> this is it: https://yandex.ru/images/search?pos=74&p=1&img_url=https%3A%2F%2Fi7.photo.2gis.com%2Fimages%2Fgeo%2F0%2F30258560046534811_308c.jpg&text=%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F+%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0+%D0%B2+%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%85&rpt=simage
01:00:44 <pikhq> keegan: well there's a subject i didn't realize i was interested in but i absolutely am now
01:02:09 <nakilon> and there are all Ukrainian as I see https://bugaga.ru/jokes/1146723770-sdelano-v-sssr-avtobusnye-ostanovki.html
02:09:40 <nakilon> heh, about privacy: 5 years ago here https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/desktop/ there was a Chrome, i.e. not a Google Chrome but almost a Chromium, that is almost without telemetry and stuff; but now it's Google Chrome there, and the FreeSMUG project was closed in 2020 too
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02:27:36 <zzo38> I write software without telemetry; the telemetry is a waste of energy.
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02:48:18 <Corbin> Is there an esolang which is just a presentation of a Turing category? I found the language "Finite Groups", and I'm thinking of a cross between that and Cat/Kitten/Grace/etc.
02:48:44 <nakilon> my QuakeLive browser extension was sending users usernames to my Spreadsheet so I knew who used it; Google didn't catch me with it
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03:37:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83944&oldid=83833 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+46) /* Challenge */
03:42:10 <esolangs> [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83945&oldid=75658 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+254)
03:46:24 <nakilon> wtf does kolmogorov have to do with hello world
03:52:58 <Corbin> Some numbers are more compressible than others, in the Kolmogorov sense that they can be printed out by relatively short programs. "Hello world" is a number. I think that that's all that they're thinking of.
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05:26:07 <zzo38> Do you think that this trademark license is suitable? http://sprunge.us/iagkJb
06:08:48 <cd> i've been (trying) to run a hb instance for a bit, damn thing's fiddly but it works
06:09:00 <cd> thought it'd be funny to see what that network makes of it
06:15:26 <cd> int-e: atm the hiccups it has are 1) I didn't fully fix the ping code so it randomly times out on pissnet (I'm tired gimmie a breakkkkk), and 2) very very rarely umlbox init hangs for no apparent reason, and I can't seem to ever repro it
06:16:04 <int-e> cd: sounds like fun
06:18:58 <cd> `` mknod stall p && cat stall
06:19:08 * cd is curious if this is the first "oops eso broke" in a while
06:26:32 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83946&oldid=83881 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-1)
06:27:11 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83947&oldid=83946 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+0)
06:28:06 <cd> oh hey, a no output
06:28:14 <cd> nearly 10min later
06:33:46 <int-e> generous, but not quite 10 minutes :)
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09:43:46 <fizzie> Ooh, first-ever recorded CHGHOST: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-06-04.html#lmb
09:43:50 <fizzie> And how come that takes long? Sure, it's a blocking read, but so's many other things, it should react to SIGTERM just as usual.
09:47:07 <nakilon> that's just cloaking, right? had to be recorded earlier
09:47:27 <fizzie> It was recorded as a simulated quit-and-rejoin pair, not as a CHGHOST.
09:48:07 <fizzie> I just turned on the extension that allows it to report it as a single thing, is all.
09:49:53 <fizzie> FireFly: You made history. (Not in a very big way, but still.)
09:50:33 <fizzie> I vaguely remember there used to be something screwy about how umlbox handles time, maybe it's just that its notion of 30 seconds gets real skewed.
09:53:24 <fizzie> `` sleep 1; echo a second
09:53:32 <fizzie> `` sleep 2; echo two seconds
09:53:42 <fizzie> `` sleep 4; echo four seconds
09:54:05 <fizzie> That seems to check out, roughly. But last time it broke when I went for five, somehow.
09:54:12 <fizzie> `` sleep 5; echo five seconds
09:54:36 <fizzie> Well, that was definitely more than 5.
09:54:40 <fizzie> `` sleep 10; echo ten seconds
09:55:14 <FireFly> the world's longest ten seconds
09:56:30 <fizzie> Yeah. I wonder if it's something like, its "wall" clock only runs when there's actually CPU activity, so while a busy-loop gets terminated roughly in the allotted 30 seconds, an entirely idle wait can run for much longer.
09:58:59 <fizzie> Still running, but I don't have any way to tell how far it's gotten.
09:59:27 <Taneb> If someone puts in a busy loop will that be enough for the sleep 10 to catch up
09:59:49 <fizzie> It'd be a separate UML instance, so probably not, they should be fully independent.
10:00:52 <Taneb> 4 minutes and 51 seconds
10:02:16 <fizzie> "Real-time Clock makes UML time deltas match wall clock deltas. This should normally be enabled." Says some random excerpt from an UML book from 15 years ago.
10:08:10 <fizzie> I don't see anything relevant in the kernel config options, really.
10:11:39 <fizzie> There apparently used to be an option called UML_REAL_TIME_CLOCK. But I can find no sign of it in the kernel I've got there (4.19), which might mean it's either no longer an option because it's now on by default, or it's no longer an option because it just isn't supported any more.
10:11:51 <fizzie> https://cateee.net/lkddb/web-lkddb/UML_REAL_TIME_CLOCK.html says "found in Linux kernels: 2.6.9–2.6.23" which was pretty long time ago.
10:13:43 <fizzie> Fortunately timeouts don't really block other non-writing commands from going ahead, so it's not a huge deal if there's a stuck idle process for a few minutes. Still, would be nice to have time work more properly.
10:13:59 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just go with the cheap fix and add an external timeout.
10:14:53 <HackEso> Why are you taking Polly down into the mine? Polly's a parrot, not a canary! And where's my cracker?
10:15:12 <fizzie> Although there's this whole fancy thing with the internal one, where it has a two-phase thing: after 30 seconds, it sends TERM, and then gives the process a 5-second grace period to stop cleanly before sending KILL to it.
10:15:45 <int-e> shouldn't there be a watchdog outside
10:16:29 <fizzie> I guess I could try to figure out how to trigger the soft timeout from the outside, and then have an even harder one (just terminate the UML kernel) if both of those fail.
10:17:53 <int-e> And of course there's the whole R/W-lock thing that we underatand well enough to make this completely blocking.
10:18:11 <fizzie> I mean, it still times out *eventually*.
10:18:56 <fizzie> In case you missed it, the "10 seconds" did already finish.
10:19:44 <int-e> what a pity though
10:20:05 <int-e> but 5 minutes is a good effort
10:20:55 <fizzie> I think I'll probably add an extra TTY to signal in the TERM and KILL timeout triggers from the outside (where I expect time probably does run in a linear fashion), and then add one more phase which just kills the UML process. That'll simplify the init too.
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11:23:11 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83948&oldid=83947 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+0)
11:28:29 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83949&oldid=83948 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+120) Added a link to my python interpreter
11:29:43 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83950&oldid=83949 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+4) Put the links into an unordered list.
11:30:44 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83951&oldid=83950 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+18) Added the page to the 2021 category.
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12:37:09 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83952 * ResU * (+729) Created page with "NOTE is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. It uses one-based indexing. ==Arrays== Arrays are created like this: <code>example = Hello, world!</code> In this case, <c..."
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12:47:05 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83953&oldid=83952 * ResU * (+21) /* Commands */
12:54:35 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83954&oldid=83953 * ResU * (+35) /* Commands */
13:23:59 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83955&oldid=83954 * ResU * (+395) /* Examples */
13:24:32 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83956&oldid=83955 * ResU * (+0) /* Examples */
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13:27:37 <esolangs> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83957&oldid=82823 * Xanman12321 * (+0) minor fix
14:20:37 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83958&oldid=83931 * MathR * (+56)
14:26:11 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83959&oldid=83958 * MathR * (+17)
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15:07:51 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83960&oldid=83877 * ResU * (+15)
15:52:21 <esolangs> [[User:Epidemic7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83961&oldid=83624 * Epidemic7 * (-113)
16:00:17 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83962&oldid=83959 * MathR * (+24) /* External resources */
16:00:44 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83963 * Epidemic7 * (+308) Created page with "[[Category: Joke languages]] 25 bytes o: is an esoteric programming language designed to be as least functional as possible with the smallest compiler. To it's name, it's 25 b..."
16:04:08 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83964&oldid=83963 * Epidemic7 * (-5)
16:04:54 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83965&oldid=83964 * Epidemic7 * (+68)
16:16:19 <esolangs> [[FALSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83966&oldid=58762 * MathR * (+0) Changed "Computational Class" to "Computational class"
16:48:13 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83967&oldid=83845 * ResU * (+38) /* NOTE */
17:10:18 <HackEso> 2ivncoin wilsonacoin q-ballendsartrecoin mesolammalcoin draysnaterreludenjarercoin bakcoin haifficidumbscoin owlacoin disorcoin witcoin lockcoin tsummagemoneycoin bincoin befernogcoin fcccoin thrugcoin fruntecoin cronycoin adedfourcoin uixcoin
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18:35:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83968&oldid=83270 * ResU * (+186)
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19:39:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83969&oldid=83968 * Ais523 * (+181) /* Category:No input */ [[:Category:Output only]]?
19:50:28 <fizzie> Hmm, what's the standard clean C way to wait for either a child process to terminate or a file descriptor to become ready for reading, whichever happens first? I know on modern Linux there's pidfd_open, but that's Linux >= 5.3, and this should work on 4.19. Is it just "poll on the fd and rely on SIGCHLD to cause the poll to fail with EINTR"? And do I need to change the default disposition from ignore to
19:50:34 <fizzie> something else for SIGCHLD to interrupt the poll? Hmm, I guess I can just try it out.
19:53:47 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83970&oldid=83743 * Dnm * (+713) Deadfish in Rexx
20:12:25 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Maybe I'll just go with the cheap fix and add an external timeout." => what? that's not a cheap fix, that's the proper method, because you trust the outer machine more than the inner one
20:12:52 <b_jonas> you can also have a timeout in the inner machine so it can prepare to shut down more properly, but it's the outer one that you rely on
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20:14:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: you can use signalfd if you wish
20:15:06 <b_jonas> or let libev or some other event loop figure out the internals and you only tell it what events you want it to wake you up for
20:16:36 <fizzie> It's a cheap fix in the sense that it doesn't fix the behavior of time measurement. I agree it's proper to have (also) an external timeout, but I was really just talking about the specific problem of being unable to measure time.
20:17:07 <fizzie> Not that I can think of any particularly important use cases for having HackEso do accurate timing.
20:19:17 <b_jonas> but yes, you can use signals: sigaction to set a signal handler on SIGCHLD, block the signal with sigsetmask, wait nonblocking to check child still alive, if it is then poll on filehandle which temporarily unblocks the signal without a race condition. but this kind of thing is messy, I'
20:19:29 <b_jonas> d rather libev handles it, at least if this is supposed to run on Linux
20:20:44 <b_jonas> also the incantations are different in a multithreaded program
20:21:06 <fizzie> It does run on Linux (though as part of init).
20:22:06 <b_jonas> because threads have separate per-thread signal masks, and signals can be directed to either a single thread or to the whole process, etc
20:22:26 <fizzie> Well, this is a single-threaded case.
20:23:43 <b_jonas> the alternative is to have both ends of an internal pipe or eventfd, have the signal write to that as well as to memory, and make every poll wait on its reader side, so that if the signal arrives, that poll wakes up from that, even if the signal arrives shortly before the poll call, then you needn't modify the sigprocmask
20:24:13 <b_jonas> this is what libev uses to allow you to wake the event loop up from what's possibly another thread of the same process
20:24:20 <b_jonas> (it also works from the same thread)
20:37:37 <b_jonas> there might be other solutions but I don't know them
21:00:35 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83971&oldid=83956 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-64) /* Examples */ Change code to pre
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21:05:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83972&oldid=83969 * ResU * (+187)
21:06:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83973&oldid=83972 * ResU * (-4) /* Category:No input */
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21:21:06 <esolangs> [[Commlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83974 * Monochromeninja * (+4619) :)
21:21:40 <esolangs> [[User:Monochromeninja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83975&oldid=81516 * Monochromeninja * (+46)
21:31:12 <fizzie> `` sleep 3600 # this should take roughly 30 seconds
21:33:16 <fizzie> 22:31:12..22:31:52 as observed from here. That's so suspiciously close to 40 seconds, it's making me think that (unlike at home) the 30- and 35-second soft and medium-hard timeout signals did not in fact work, and only the 40-second actually-hard timeout made it stop.
21:35:03 <fizzie> The way it is supposed to work now is, 30 seconds after starting the UML kernel, we write a 0 byte to one of its TTY inputs; if it hasn't terminated in 5 more seconds; we write a 1 byte; and if it *still* doesn't terminate in 5 more seconds, we send a SIGKILL to all the UML processes.
21:37:39 <fizzie> And the umlbox init's "run" command handler is supposed to watch that TTY for input; if it reads a 0, it sends a SIGTERM to the running command; and if it reads a 1 (well, any non-zero byte), it just does a `reboot(LINUX_REBOOT_CMD_POWER_OFF);`, which is what it normally does to gracefully stop.
21:38:43 <fizzie> It does work at home, terminating at the 30-second mark. But of course it's a different system.
21:42:07 <fizzie> Hmm. It also does terminate in exactly 10 seconds, and cleanly, if I just manually execute something like `umlbox --no-stdin --base-mounts --cwd / --timeout 10 --verbose /bin/sleep 3600` on the HackEso system. Which is very very close to the command it runs under multibot, except with a bunch of extra mounts and environment variables and resource limits.
21:43:01 <fizzie> Hrm. It takes 20 seconds if I omit `--verbose`. But if I omit `--verbose`, I don't know what's going on.
21:43:17 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83976&oldid=83951 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+9)
21:44:10 <fizzie> Actually, maybe part of what --verbose does enables the read from that TTY. Because I used just the debugging console's "input" side, since it had no other existing purpose.
21:47:28 <fizzie> The flag does change whether I issue a tcsetattr command to configure it to raw mode. Maybe it's doing some sort of terminal line buffering otherwise.
21:50:50 <esolangs> [[Alivefish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83977 * ResU * (+474) Created page with "Alivefish was created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. It is very similar to [[Deadfish]] and [[AEWNN]]. ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Command !Description |- |<code>v-</code> |Is..."
21:51:43 <fizzie> Yeah, that seems plausible. I managed to actually fix it by just adding a newline after the 0 or 1. Hmm. Can't decide whether to go with that fix, or just make it use a dedicated TTY.
21:52:41 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83978&oldid=83960 * ResU * (+20)
22:00:59 <fizzie> `` sleep 3600 # this should be a little closer to 30 seconds, but who knows really
22:02:30 <fizzie> 23:00:59..23:01:35 as seen from here. Hmm, that's closer to 35 seconds now, rather than 30.
22:03:20 <fizzie> But `time .../umlbox --no-stdin --base-mounts --cwd / --timeout 10 /bin/sleep 3600` says 0m10.255s, which is much closer. Odd.
22:06:11 <fizzie> Oh, maybe there's something about invoking /hackenv/bin/` that makes sending SIGTERM to the primary child process (the shell?) not actually terminate the whole thing. Yeah, because we still wait for the cat (and don't send it SIGTERM in case the command had something to output), and there's bound to be some other subprocess then keeping the cat's input pipe not EOF. I bet that's it.
22:07:37 <fizzie> Eh, it's probably good enough. I guess I could get a little closer by making the actual command child start a new process group, and then do kill(-child, SIGTERM) instead of kill(child, SIGTERM), but I think maybe we're at the point of diminishing returns here.
22:10:16 <fizzie> `perl -esleep 3600; # if that hypothesis is right, this should be closer still to 30 seconds
22:11:20 <fizzie> 23:10:16..23:10:46, yay.
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22:53:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: if the first signal is SIGTERM and it's delivered only to the shell, not to sleep, then it's no wonder it has no effect. you should try SIGHUP instead.
22:53:49 <b_jonas> or send to the whole process group, or to the foreground process group of the terminal, or to every process except init since you're shutting down the whole machine
22:53:59 <b_jonas> but even so send a SIGHUP after the SIGTERM\
22:54:11 <b_jonas> or don't, the SIGKILL will kill everything
22:58:15 <zzo38> I think that it might be useful to define some new signals, such as SIGMEM (normally does nothing, but for some programming languages it might be possible for the standard library to reduce memory usage) and SIGOOM (normally terminates the process; if it isn't terminated and there still isn't enough memory, then it is forcibly terminated anyways) and SIGUSR3.
22:58:37 <zzo38> (That is not applicable to your specific case, but still I think it might be of some use for other things)
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23:48:26 <esolangs> [[Alivefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83979&oldid=83977 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Commands */ Seems to have them
23:48:44 <esolangs> [[Alivefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83980&oldid=83979 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Hello, world! */ cat
23:52:39 <esolangs> [[Truth Machine (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83981&oldid=83878 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Confused formatted cats
23:53:37 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83982&oldid=83520 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Confusion
00:41:35 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83983&oldid=83976 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+426) Added a calculator program.
00:42:43 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83984&oldid=83983 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+2) Fixed spelling error
00:49:59 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83985&oldid=83984 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+8) Added indents to make things more pleasing.
01:18:44 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83986&oldid=83985 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-4)
02:21:09 <esolangs> [[Memfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83987&oldid=46148 * Caenbe * (+101) Linked implementation.
02:39:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Danya02 * New user account
02:43:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83988&oldid=83937 * Danya02 * (+224)
02:47:41 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83989&oldid=82934 * Caenbe * (+98) Added Memfractal
03:05:10 <zzo38> My idea of cryptographic hash is: let d[4...11] = message block; let d[12...13] = sequence number; let d[14...15] = constant; chacha20(d); let t[4...15] = t[4...15] xor d[4...15]; chacha20(t); (It is not the final hash though) (Also, it is not meant for actual use since so far is only being the idea/experimental)
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03:46:31 <nakilon> maybe I should review the RASEL specification to change ASCII with some 0..255 encoding
03:47:17 <nakilon> it's kind of undefined where it will (and it probably will) crash if you send 128..255 to stdin
03:47:35 <zzo38> Another coding is the PC character coding
03:49:20 <velik> output: "1 ", exit code: 0
03:49:52 <velik> output: "49 ", exit code: 0
03:50:21 <nakilon> lol 06:50:02 <velik> thread error: #<Net::HTTPInternalServerError 500 Internal Server Error readbody=true>
04:10:26 <zzo38> Better is probably don't care about the encoding just ensure that bytes outside of the ASCII range can still be received.
04:17:57 <esolangs> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83990&oldid=81572 * Danya02 * (+3972) /* Words */ Major refactor of text to make wordings more specific and helpful as documentation.
04:18:59 <esolangs> [[Baba Is You]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83991&oldid=83990 * Danya02 * (+1) /* Words */ Closing unmatched code block.
04:44:03 <esolangs> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83992&oldid=83991 * Danya02 * (+1568) /* Infinite loop */ Describing how the infinite loop works.
04:47:36 <nakilon> I'm currently adding the -multiline to \rasel
04:47:42 <esolangs> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83993&oldid=83992 * Danya02 * (+99) /* Operator NOT */ Adding notice about X is not X.
04:47:52 <nakilon> but idk how to make the multiline stdin ..D
04:53:17 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83994&oldid=83970 * Dnm * (+595) Deadfish in Hot Soup Processor
05:15:04 <nakilon> wtf, I want to test the endpoint but printf...
05:15:06 <nakilon> $ printf '-stdin 1 & .@\n'
05:15:07 <nakilon> -bash: printf: -s: invalid option
05:16:55 -!- lucky has quit (Read error: No route to host).
05:18:23 <nakilon> $ curl -X POST -d $(printf %s '-stdin 1 \& .@' | base64) http://localhost:8080
05:25:51 <nakilon> $ curl -X POST -d $(printf %s '-stdin|2|-multiline|& v >.@| >3v' | base64) http://localhost:8080
05:26:20 <nakilon> I removed the space between the '-stdin' and '<separator>'
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06:40:44 <nakilon> yeah, doesn't look like Libera accepts 510 bytes
06:41:28 <nakilon> privmsg = "PRIVMSG #{addr} :#{msg}"
06:41:34 <nakilon> privmsg[-4..-1] = "..." until privmsg.bytesize <= 510
06:41:43 <nakilon> and I don't see the trailing "..."
06:59:56 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:00:29 -!- velik has joined.
07:04:46 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:05:20 -!- velik has joined.
07:08:55 <velik> output: [NUL]<CTCP>[LF][CR] !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ, exit code: 255
07:09:08 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin|10|-multiline|1&$:?v:1-3\$/1\| >$11\/.@
07:09:09 <velik> output: 3628800 , exit code: 0
07:13:19 <velik> \rasel <code>; \rasel -stdin<sep><stdin><sep><code>; \rasel -multiline<sep><code>; \rasel -stdin<sep><stdin><sep>-multiline<sep><code>; don't forget the '@' or it will timeout; timelimit=30s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
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07:18:11 <esolangs> [[Velik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83995&oldid=83636 * Nakilon * (+4) added -multiline example
07:19:43 <esolangs> [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83996&oldid=83995 * Nakilon * (-4) the output isn't passed through String#inspect anymore thanks to more correct sanitizing in IRC library
07:48:11 <fizzie> nakilon: It does accept exactly 510 bytes, it's just that the limit is for the whole thing, not what you might think of as "the message". When seen by *other* clients, the entire ":nick!user@host PRIVMSG #channel :blah blah blah" must fit into 510 bytes.
07:50:42 <nakilon> 'velik!~velik@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com' is 52 bytes long though
07:52:27 <fizzie> > length ":nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon "
07:52:33 <fizzie> Possibly you were measuring that instead.
07:52:41 <fizzie> (I don't know how you got to 31.)
08:00:01 <nakilon> hmmm, somehow my second bot instance has shorter hostnam
08:00:50 <nakilon> ah, sure, it's from my home machine
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08:01:21 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/cAp6/slim
08:05:03 <esolangs> [[DimensionDoors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83997&oldid=72117 * MathR * (+17)
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08:09:17 <esolangs> [[DimensionDoors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83998&oldid=83997 * MathR * (-9)
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08:24:30 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83999&oldid=83986 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+166) Added infobox
08:24:52 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84000&oldid=83999 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-1) Fixed spelling mistake
08:25:13 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84001&oldid=84000 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+1) Fixed spelling mistake
08:29:29 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84002&oldid=84001 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+86) Edited infobox
08:30:49 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84003&oldid=84002 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-3) Changed the implementations section. Re-arranged the implementations in the list.
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09:32:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Grs * New user account
09:47:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84004&oldid=83988 * Grs * (+117)
09:49:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84005&oldid=84004 * Grs * (+6)
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11:33:57 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84006 * Grs * (+12488) Created page with "Not to be confused with [[OneLine]] or [[Oneline]]<br><br> OLNMLN or OneLineNoMoreLinesNeeded is a programming language where everything is written in one line! It was written..."
11:36:35 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84007&oldid=84006 * Grs * (+2)
11:37:01 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84008&oldid=84007 * Grs * (-1)
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11:41:06 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84009&oldid=84008 * Grs * (+54)
11:42:50 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84010&oldid=84009 * Grs * (+81)
11:45:17 <esolangs> [[User:Grs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84011 * Grs * (+34) Created page with "Hello everyone! I made [[OLNMLN]]!"
11:50:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84012&oldid=83922 * Grs * (+13) /* O */
12:05:21 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84013&oldid=84010 * Grs * (-16)
12:09:40 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84014&oldid=84013 * Grs * (+108)
12:12:53 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84015&oldid=84014 * Grs * (+8)
12:15:55 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84016&oldid=84015 * Grs * (+108)
12:19:03 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84017&oldid=84016 * Grs * (+81)
12:20:56 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84018&oldid=84017 * Grs * (+41)
12:21:45 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84019&oldid=84018 * Grs * (-4)
12:22:05 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84020&oldid=83631 * Tomhe * (+1) /* The FlipJump CPU */
13:08:03 <esolangs> [[DimensionDoors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84021&oldid=83998 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Should probably be removed
13:08:48 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84022&oldid=84019 * Grs * (+33)
13:09:20 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84023&oldid=84022 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) /* How it works */ Tpyo
13:11:37 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84024&oldid=84023 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Interpretation of code */ Categories/ul
13:15:40 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84025&oldid=84024 * Grs * (+41)
13:17:16 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84026&oldid=84025 * Grs * (+4)
13:22:35 <nakilon> wanna make \ruby repl too, but since it would need proper sandboxing for file system and network and since it appears that it's not really possible to do docker in a docker, I have to read a ton of boring sysadmin docs about network isolation
13:24:31 <nakilon> but when I make it would be trivial to add any kind of repl to it
13:25:00 <nakilon> I mean any language interpreter
13:32:54 -!- Soni has changed nick to queeries.
13:33:13 -!- queeries has changed nick to Soni.
13:48:47 <fizzie> Here's the scow-est thing about the IRC message length limit: if a client is using the (deprecated) identify-msg capability, which adds a '-' or '+' prefix to every PRIVMSG/NOTICE body indicating whether the sender was identified to services or not, that decreases the maximum available size by one. And there's no possible way a bot can know if the recipient (or *any* recipient when sending to a channel)
13:48:53 <fizzie> has that on. So it has to either pessimistically assume and send one byte less it could, or just accept that if someone does use it, they might get the last byte truncated.
13:48:59 <fizzie> (Fortunately that extension's pretty dead by now.)
13:49:31 <fizzie> I was sort of wondering about turning on "account-tag" for #esolangs logs, because then you could validate whether someone using a nickname was doing so legitimately, when reading the logs, but I don't know if that would *really* be worth the hassle.
13:56:13 <fizzie> (Also I don't know how I'd present it when rendering. It's easy to come up with ways to indicate a single bit of information, but that doesn't quite suffice for the case where account != nickname.)
14:05:48 <oerjan> fizzie: mouseover text?
14:09:43 <fizzie> I guess there's that. I could add a superscript '?' between the nickname and the closing '>' for unidentified, and a superscript '*' with mouseover text denoting the account for the mismatch case, and leave the unannotated version for the common case where both are the same. Though it's not like impostors have been a particular problem.
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14:18:56 <esolangs> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84027&oldid=67699 * Grs * (-2) Fixed some grammar issues
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14:45:50 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84028&oldid=84026 * Grs * (+54)
14:46:33 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84029&oldid=84028 * Grs * (+1)
14:53:17 <esolangs> [[OneLineNoMoreLinesNeeded]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84030 * Grs * (+20) Redirected page to [[OLNMLN]]
14:59:12 <esolangs> [[W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84031&oldid=63534 * MathR * (+279) /* Every valid command in W with explanations (inputs replaced with X) */
15:01:58 <esolangs> [[W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84032&oldid=84031 * MathR * (+188) /* Error codes */
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15:52:54 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84033&oldid=84029 * Grs * (+14) Added output for example at stop command.
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16:42:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84034&oldid=76190 * Caenbe * (+440) /* Computational Class */ Category proposal
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17:02:16 <nakilon> there are operations on top of the stack, and there are some stack-based languages that have multiple stacks with operations of, for example, swapping top two stacks
17:02:34 <nakilon> imagine the stack to be 2 dimensional
17:03:01 <nakilon> so there is the zero-corner and two axes
17:03:29 <nakilon> so the "swap" instruction would swap two stacks on either of two axes
17:04:15 <nakilon> or actually it can always swap by the same axis but there would be an instruction of transposing the stack
17:04:48 <esolangs> [[Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84035&oldid=79331 * Caenbe * (+271) Completed PDA equivalence proof and added category
17:05:32 <zzo38> Forth has two stacks (a data stack and return stack), although some implementations have some additional stacks also
17:09:58 <oerjan> istr befunge-98 has something called a "stack stack"
17:10:34 <nakilon> yep, but there are different sets of operations on the top stack and on the stack of stacks
17:10:35 <fizzie> It does, though there aren't that many operations that operate on any but the topmost stack.
17:11:11 <oerjan> i guess it probably doesn't have a transpose command :P
17:11:18 <fizzie> You can push on a new stack, pop off an old stack, and then there's one bulk transfer operation to either direction, that's about it.
17:12:05 <fizzie> Also modifications of the stack stack annoyingly also modify the storage origin (that g/p coordinates are relative to), which isn't always that convenient.
17:13:21 <fizzie> The sequence of instructions to do either of those on its own (just change the offset, or manipulate the stack stack) is annoyingly convoluted, though doable.
17:14:10 <esolangs> [[Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84036&oldid=84035 * Caenbe * (+250) /* Computational class */ A little more detail
17:14:46 <fizzie> The "push a new stack" instruction { sets the new offset to the location of the next instruction executed after the {, somewhat bizarrely; it also pushes the old offset onto the old stack, so that } can read it from there. So a suitable {...} combo (with a bit of stack manipulation in-between) can set an arbitrary storage offset.
17:16:10 <fizzie> 0{<y><x>02-u0}$$ or something along those lines, assuming a two-dimensional Funge-98.
17:18:12 <nakilon> I guess if you change all the instructions to work on the stack-stack level it won't work well though; I guess you'll want to push just a single value, not the whole vector of them, and it doesn't seem to be emulatable; so there should be some universal instruction modifier to "enable the stack-stack mode for the next instruction" or a defined
17:18:12 <nakilon> subset of instructions that are modifiable
17:23:31 <nakilon> need to find some other useful uses of transpose though, not just for the swap two top stacks instruction
17:24:58 <fizzie> How does transpose work with stacks of different sizes? Is it just assumed to be an infinite expanse of 0s beyond the bottom, like a Befunge stack?
17:25:43 <nakilon> I couldn't implement the brainfuck in rasel because it needs at least two stacks -- one for befunge runtime and one for the stack of [] loops
17:26:07 <nakilon> yep, automatically expand to make the rectangle
17:28:12 <nakilon> the potential "push the N value onto the every stack" would either work in a way that demands a strict definition of how the stacks expand or in the way of lazy pushes
17:29:22 <nakilon> i.e. when you push a new stack of Ns it's infinitely long and when you need to expand another axis it should remember to push additional Ns when needed
17:30:35 <nakilon> (still need to find a use case of such N-stack-push though)
17:38:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: don't turn it on please. if you want to get that information, get it from the other extensions.
17:38:55 <fizzie> What's the problem with it?
17:39:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: the truncated byte, plus it only tells you one but, not what the actual account name is
17:39:42 <fizzie> That's identify-msg, not account-tag.
17:40:01 <b_jonas> oh, you want the proper non-depreciated thing?
17:40:04 <b_jonas> sure, you can turn it on if you want
17:40:19 <b_jonas> I mean don't turn on the old depreciated identify-msg thing
17:40:56 <b_jonas> except maybe on freenode but only if we run out of reasonable ways to filter bridge forward spam
17:41:02 <b_jonas> but I don't think it will come to that
17:41:19 <b_jonas> if it gets that far, we should just quiet unidentified there
17:41:21 <fizzie> Well, I don't know if I want account-tag or not. I just noticed it got turned on for my potential future personal logs when using pounce, even without asking.
17:41:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: does account-tag tell you more than the old combo whox+account+extjoin
17:42:02 <b_jonas> I haven't experimented with account-tag yet
17:42:08 <fizzie> It tells you the account for private messages without asking specifically, which of course doesn't matter for #esolangs logs.
17:42:31 <b_jonas> does it tell only the account name, or something more about the account too?
17:42:42 <fizzie> Just the account name.
17:55:26 <zzo38> PostScript has several stacks, including the operand stack, execution stack (which can be read but cannot be directly manipulated), the dictionary stack (which stores only dictionaries and the bottom three items cannot be removed), the graphics stack, the clipping stack (stored in the graphics stack), and possibly others that I forgot. There are also VM saves, too.
17:56:45 <zzo38> (Allowing the execution stack to be altered directly might allow you to implement some more sophisticated functions, such as continuations perhaps)
17:57:35 <zzo38> (and also like FORGET does in INTERCAL, too, maybe)
18:00:22 <nakilon> "... needs at least two stacks -- one for befunge runtime and ..." - s/befunge/brainfuck
18:02:41 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh has four stacks: the operand stack, the call stack (which also includes the Self variable, as well as internal functions), the message stack (which stores all message variables other than Self), and the pattern stack (used for backtracking when a pattern match fails).
18:04:15 <zzo38> For implementing loops like the [] loops in brainfuck, there is perhaps three ways, which is to convert to GOTO like Forth does, to use a execution stack like PostScript does, or to seek forward and backward each time when executing the loop.
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18:29:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Michal Atlas * New user account
18:32:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * ResU * moved [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of instructions that produce various kinds of output.]] to [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of output.]]: Wikipedia first sentence change
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18:44:18 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84039 * Grs * (+9192) Created page with "Not to be confused with [[OLNMLN]] OLNMLNE or OneLineNoMoreLinesNeededinEntropy is a programming language that is almost the same as [[OLNMLN]]. It was written by ~~~. The di..."
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19:29:51 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84040&oldid=84033 * Grs * (+29)
19:31:06 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84041&oldid=84039 * Grs * (+26)
19:31:40 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84042&oldid=84041 * Grs * (+2) /* See also */
19:35:17 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84043&oldid=84042 * Grs * (-4)
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20:00:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84044&oldid=76076 * Grs * (+175)
20:02:11 <esolangs> [[256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84045&oldid=79025 * Grs * (-2)
20:03:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84046&oldid=84044 * Grs * (+30)
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20:06:41 <HackEso> Guest9: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:07:17 <Guest9> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ResU is who I am
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20:15:08 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84047&oldid=84040 * Grs * (-17)
20:15:47 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84048&oldid=84047 * Grs * (+8)
20:16:16 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84049&oldid=84043 * Grs * (-1)
20:16:31 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84050&oldid=84049 * Grs * (-1)
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20:22:47 <esolangs> [[OHE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84051 * ResU * (+283) Created page with "```OHE``` is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. Every program prints "Hello, world!". ==Examples== ===Hello, world!=== <pre></pre> ===Quine=== <pre>Hello, world!</pr..."
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20:31:09 <esolangs> [[OHE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84052&oldid=84051 * ResU * (+0)
20:39:07 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84053&oldid=83842 * Kantoros1 * (-1139) Simplified the code examples, NDBall is much more capable than it seems. 99 bottles of beer program takes up only 4 dimensions, but has almost 450 instructions.
21:07:59 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84054&oldid=84053 * Kantoros1 * (+257) Added an external link to 99 bottles program
21:21:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84055&oldid=81677 * Grs * (+3302)
21:27:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84056&oldid=84055 * Grs * (+44) /* I made a interpreter */
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21:54:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84057&oldid=84056 * Grs * (+63)
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22:27:32 <esolangs> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84058&oldid=77285 * ResU * (+0) fixed typo
22:44:00 <esolangs> [[COVID-19]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84059&oldid=74249 * ResU * (+50)
22:59:43 <esolangs> [[Milk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84060&oldid=83583 * Salmmanfred * (+85) /* Implementations */
23:16:37 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84061&oldid=31062 * Caenbe * (+1040) I'm not sure about "evaluates to true" but I think non-zero numbers evaluate to true, so it should be pretty easy to implement a Minsky machine.
23:38:04 <esolangs> [[Template:Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84062&oldid=78372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) Name change
23:38:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of output.]] to [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]]: The name changed
23:39:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84065&oldid=84046 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Why is the article still in the unimplemented category? */ Un-unsigned
23:53:49 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84066&oldid=79816 * Andrewarchi * (+136) Add ws-corpus
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00:19:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Neural Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84067 * Caenbe * (+214) Created page with "==s Command== This is Turing complete, if the s command is allowed to be a [[Spoon]] implementation that maps programs to their output. ;) ~~~~"
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00:36:49 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84068&oldid=84061 * Caenbe * (+25) This seems to be more accurate given the examples.
00:37:03 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84069&oldid=84068 * Caenbe * (+0)
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00:54:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84070&oldid=78013 * Not applicable * (+443)
00:58:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84071&oldid=84070 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+222) /* HelVM */ Reply
00:59:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84072&oldid=83801 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+171) /* Test */ new section
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03:53:53 <nakilon> I found how to get the value 129 in RASEL using 7 instructions without 0..9A..Z
03:54:19 <nakilon> previous 7 long way to do it was C1B//3-
04:32:28 <int-e> hmm, tempting. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/clickbait.png
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04:49:17 <nakilon> Comments should be written in baby talk whenever possible. /* We truncy-wuncate the stringy-wingy we were given and we push-push-push it onto the stacky-wacky, don't we? Yes we do! Yes we do! */
04:50:11 <nakilon> stacky-wacky-based language
04:54:09 <nakilon> I agree with all these points: https://programmers.blogoverflow.com/2012/08/20-controversial-programming-opinions/
05:07:04 <zzo38> I also agree with what is written there
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06:13:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GotCubes * New user account
06:13:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84073&oldid=65275 * Zzo38 * (+377) Regular expression output
06:16:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84074&oldid=84005 * GotCubes * (+224) /* Introductions */
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07:00:58 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84075&oldid=83994 * Nakilon * (-11) /* Ruby */ this is very debatable
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07:09:22 <nakilon> the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tape article says "See Category:Cell-based for more tape-based esolangs. " that is in my opinion confusing
07:10:49 <nakilon> the tape in brainfuck and the program space in befunge are different things; in brainfuck the moving pointer is accesing the data while in befunge it's accessing the instructions
07:11:40 <nakilon> while that data access in befunge is random, not using the left/right instructions but p and g
07:12:14 <nakilon> I think it's a mistake to call the befunge program space an analogue of tape
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07:23:58 <u32[m|gr]> ／!\ ΤᎻΙЅ СНᎪΝNEL ΗАS MOVᎬᎠ ᎢⲞ ΙRϹ.LΙᗷΕRΑ．ϹHAT ﹟HAᎷRΑᎠIO /ⵑ\
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08:00:41 <Taneb> nakilon: I think I disagree. If I saw a language that's like brainfuck but with random access instructions, I'd think it's very like brainfuck, and if I saw a language like befunge, but with a program space data pointer that you can move about, I'd think it's very like befunge
08:04:07 <nakilon> yes, because the brainfuck tape and befunge space are different things
08:05:46 <nakilon> that's why I see no reason to have the link to "cell-based" saying "to read more about tape-based" (and vise versa)
08:06:03 <Taneb> I don't think they're very different things at all
08:06:57 <shachaf> Seen any good cats lately?
08:07:03 <nakilon> tape means you have a pointer than you instruct to shift its position by delta
08:07:04 <Taneb> Only from a distance :(
08:07:18 <nakilon> cell-basedness says nothing about the pointer
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08:10:36 <nakilon> in brainfuck the data pointer and the instruction pointer are different things, operating isolated; in befunge they are mixed together by using the program space as memory
08:11:32 <nakilon> befunge isn't more tape-based than C
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11:05:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84076&oldid=84057 * Grs * (-63)
11:19:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84077&oldid=84076 * Grs * (+922) Added Hello World! program
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11:33:34 <fizzie> I agree that fungespace doesn't feel particularly tape-y, but I don't think the fact that it merges the data and instruction pointers together is what makes the difference.
11:33:39 <fizzie> There are a number of brainfuck flavors that do the same (make the "data pointer" also operate on the program itself), and those are just as "tape-based" as regular brainfuck.
11:33:42 <fizzie> Anyway, the "see Category:Cell-based for more tape-based esolangs" doesn't imply that all languages in the category would be tape-based; it just says there are some tape-based ones in it, which can't really be argued against, when probably half of them (exaggerating, but not by much) are derivatives of brainfuck, *the* tape-based language.
11:37:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Magnogen * New user account
11:43:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84078&oldid=84074 * Magnogen * (+191) /* Introductions */
11:54:08 <esolangs> [[User:Magnogen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84079 * Magnogen * (+751) Created page with "Hey! My name's Magnogen, but you can call me Mag - my friends call me that anyway. I like to code, even though it causes my great pain sometimes. I've been making a few prog..."
11:54:29 <esolangs> [[User:Magnogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84080&oldid=84079 * Magnogen * (+3)
11:54:49 <esolangs> [[User:Magnogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84081&oldid=84080 * Magnogen * (+4)
11:54:59 <esolangs> [[User:Magnogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84082&oldid=84081 * Magnogen * (+1)
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12:02:27 <fizzie> Hah, the X.509 subject identifier of the certificate you-know-who uses to connect contains the component "O = Fungot Engineering", and I had completely forgotten putting it there.
12:37:57 <nakilon> there was a CS:GO skin few years ago in Steam Market that costed $0.1, I was thinking about buying a thousand of them
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12:40:31 <nakilon> maybe I had to make a script to keep track of those but I didn't bother to
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13:31:44 <nakilon> fizzie do threads in funge-98 have own stacks?
13:36:45 <nakilon> I guess it's one and threads are just pointers, hm
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13:47:54 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84083&oldid=84048 * Grs * (+369)
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13:56:13 <oerjan> <nakilon> I guess it's one and threads are just pointers, hm <-- that sounds like it would be hard to program
13:57:01 <int-e> oh remember the box256 thread model
13:57:49 <int-e> (just a random association for "threads" and "hard to program")
13:58:03 <oerjan> i don't, should i be happy? :P
13:59:17 <int-e> oerjan: I don't know. It was fun. I'm still on the official leaderboard. https://www.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4dtkwb/official_leaderboard/
13:59:33 <int-e> But it was ages ago
14:00:12 <int-e> it kind of died quickly
14:01:22 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe it deadlocked )
14:01:38 <int-e> nah, people just lost interest
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14:56:30 <fizzie> nakilon: No, each thread has a separate stack.
14:56:59 <fizzie> nakilon: It's the (lesser-known) Befunge-97 or -96 (I forget which) where each thread shares the same stack, and doesn't even get its own stack pointer.
14:57:33 <fizzie> Or more precisely, separate stack -> separate stack stack.
14:58:39 <fizzie> https://quuxplusone.github.io/Fungus/docs/spec98.html#Concurrent "When a child IP is borne unto Funge-Space thus, its location, storage offset, and stack are all copied verbatim from the parent IP's."
14:58:53 <fizzie> "In Concurrent Funge, IP's are sometimes called threads and each has its own location, delta, and stack."
15:01:14 <fizzie> I feel like the fact that -97's shared stack was practically impossible to program (you'd have to cycle-count everything to prevent the separate IPs from trampling all over what they're doing) is why 98 is the one that really "made it".
15:01:25 <fizzie> https://catseye.tc/article/Languages.md#befunge-97 "Befunge-97 was an unimplemented attempt to design a successor to Befunge-93. The design, however, was not successful — it has been described as "brain-damaged" — primarily due to the fact that separate processes were specified as sharing a single stack."
15:08:44 <oerjan> at least it's definitely esoteric :P
15:14:32 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84084&oldid=84054 * Aspwil * (+99) /* 99 Bottles of beer on the wall */
15:18:31 <esolangs> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84085 * Aspwil * (+77) Created page with "{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed nowrap" |+ | name |- |text |}"
15:21:19 <esolangs> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84086&oldid=84085 * Aspwil * (-5)
15:31:27 <fizzie> Let's see if I could convince fungot to run under OpenRC's experimental service-supervisor, because why stick with something that works when you can introduce a new piece of nonsense in?
15:31:27 <fungot> fizzie: and if a lot of things to start getting such an awareness?? oh, yeh!! first you need to have +x attributes for the query.
15:31:46 <fizzie> That sounds vaguely unsettling, but I'll still go ahead with it.
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15:41:33 <fizzie> fungot: Did you gain some new kind of awareness from the new setup?
15:41:33 <fungot> fizzie: the .deb worked here. hope it didn't break my notify like it did?
15:41:52 <int-e> fungot: happy to hear that
15:41:52 <fungot> int-e: no. the scsh manual is??? what about cfunge???
15:42:10 <fizzie> fungot: ...you've installed a .deb package in your new Alpine-based container? What are you even doing?
15:42:10 <fungot> fizzie: it's hard in basic english....... huh.......interesting....... what kind of game, like e.g. procedure 6949 ( unnamed in fnord
15:42:20 <int-e> fungot: good question, what befunge implementation *are* you using?
15:42:20 <fungot> int-e: let tcl parse for me.
15:42:31 <fizzie> (Spoilers: it's cfunge.)
15:42:31 <int-e> fungot: oh you poor little thing
15:42:31 <fungot> int-e: unless it divides by 0 in which case, treating it as a multimedia message to myself with the task of adding 10 directories to a list which the last element
15:43:23 <fizzie> In retrospect, having a service manager that can restart it isn't *incredibly* useful for a bot that doesn't know how to auto-join any channels.
15:43:39 <int-e> (nothing deserves to be implemented in TCL)
15:44:21 <int-e> have esolangs periodically tell fungot to join #esolangs
15:44:21 <fungot> int-e: must've been some tasteless slashem feature :) about 35 c today... it's warm
15:44:42 <fizzie> In a sense it's a fail-safe feature, because it also doesn't know how to persist the ignore list, so this way I can pre-set it before telling it to join.
15:45:19 <fizzie> fungot: Are you measuring inside your chassis or something? I mean, it *is* warm, but it's not 35°C warm.
15:45:19 <fungot> fizzie: " today in practice, i don't remember having been surprised. we can thank anselm for this wonderfully cyclic " proof."
15:45:39 <int-e> of course esolangs should also be on that ignore list, hmm
15:45:55 <fizzie> temp1: +37.0°C // well, pretty close
15:46:41 <fizzie> fungot: Actually, how did you get access to those sensors, you're supposed to be running in a KVM thing?
15:46:41 <fungot> fizzie: cookie monster used to scare me as a sort of regex, except limited, something that evaluate lambda calculus in haskell notation.
15:46:53 <fizzie> Fine, be that way. Uppity bot.
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15:56:04 <fizzie> I could write a script to my own irssi instance to periodically check if it's missing; if so, whois it to verify it's connected and authenticated; then set that ignore list and tell it to join. But maybe it's just easier to fix those things in the Befunge code.
16:04:17 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> I could write a script to my own irssi instance to periodically check if it's missing; if so, whois it to verify it's connected and authenticated; then set that ignore list and tell it to join. But maybe it's just easier to fix those things in the Befunge code.
16:04:20 <HackEso> 1333) <fizzie> I could write a script to my own irssi instance to periodically check if it's missing; if so, whois it to verify it's connected and authenticated; then set that ignore list and tell it to join. But maybe it's just easier to fix those things in the Befunge code.
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17:58:05 <river> https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/ntnsrs/the_logic_gate_adventure/
18:22:20 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84087 * Caenbe * (+3216) Created FourQueue
18:23:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84088&oldid=84012 * Caenbe * (+16) /* F */ Added FourQueue
18:24:37 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84089&oldid=83989 * Caenbe * (+89) Added FourQueue
18:36:25 <esolangs> [[Purl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84090 * GotCubes * (+4) Created page with "Temp"
18:50:03 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84091&oldid=84090 * GotCubes * (+1495)
18:59:00 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84092&oldid=84087 * Caenbe * (+11) Changed because having a 0 in front is a huge issue. This language may need work still.
18:59:22 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84093&oldid=84091 * GotCubes * (+1237) /* Instructions */
19:01:34 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84094&oldid=84093 * GotCubes * (+9) /* Instructions */
19:02:05 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84095&oldid=84094 * GotCubes * (+28) /* Instructions */
19:04:54 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84096&oldid=84095 * GotCubes * (+167) /* Instructions */
19:05:17 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84097&oldid=84092 * Caenbe * (+127) /* Computational class */
19:06:47 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84098&oldid=84097 * Caenbe * (+1) /* Computational class */
19:08:12 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84099&oldid=84096 * GotCubes * (+4)
19:10:01 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84100&oldid=84099 * GotCubes * (+280)
19:10:16 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84101&oldid=84100 * GotCubes * (+15) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:10:18 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84102&oldid=84098 * Caenbe * (-11) Undo revision 84092 by [[Special:Contributions/Caenbe|Caenbe]] ([[User talk:Caenbe|talk]]) Never mind, I'm an idiot. I will leave this as-is unless someone has a good objection.
19:11:53 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84103&oldid=84101 * GotCubes * (+803) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:12:17 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84104&oldid=84103 * GotCubes * (-443) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:12:32 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84105&oldid=84104 * GotCubes * (-362) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:17:27 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84106&oldid=84105 * GotCubes * (+10) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:20:41 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84107&oldid=84106 * GotCubes * (+568) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:23:30 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84108&oldid=84107 * GotCubes * (+192) /* Hello, world! */
19:27:52 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84109&oldid=84108 * GotCubes * (+498) /* Truth Machine */
19:31:43 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84110&oldid=84109 * GotCubes * (+318) /* 4-Function Calculator */
19:32:18 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84111&oldid=84110 * GotCubes * (+30) /* 4-Function Calculator */
19:37:38 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84112&oldid=84111 * GotCubes * (+800) /* 4-Function Calculator */
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19:39:33 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84113&oldid=84112 * GotCubes * (+1)
19:40:04 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84114&oldid=84113 * GotCubes * (+72)
19:42:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * GotCubes * moved [[Purl]] to [[*Purl]]
19:43:04 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84117&oldid=84115 * GotCubes * (+4)
19:43:48 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84118&oldid=84117 * GotCubes * (+0) /* Example Programs */
19:44:38 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84119&oldid=84118 * GotCubes * (+50)
19:44:53 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84120&oldid=84119 * GotCubes * (+1)
19:54:48 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84121&oldid=84089 * Caenbe * (+95) Organized my langs a bit
19:57:12 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84122&oldid=84120 * GotCubes * (+257)
19:58:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * GotCubes * moved [[*Purl]] to [[Purl]] over redirect
19:58:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * GotCubes * GotCubes deleted redirect [[Purl]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[*Purl]]"
19:59:27 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84125&oldid=84123 * GotCubes * (-91)
20:00:53 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84126&oldid=84088 * GotCubes * (+11) /* P */
20:06:13 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84127&oldid=84102 * Caenbe * (+47) /* Programs */ Extra detail
20:23:01 <Corbin> "space" is often used for whitespace, so searching is difficult; are there documented languages whose objects are spaces?
20:24:15 <Corbin> Metric spaces, topological spaces, combinatoric spaces, I'm not choosy. (I'm not Chu-sey? Chu spaces would be okay too.)
20:25:27 <shachaf> Does "object" mean types or values?
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21:05:36 <Soni> (spaces, that is)
21:06:47 <shachaf> "dimension" is a very vague word.
21:11:41 <Corbin> Oh, whose values are spaces. It's pretty common for a language to have types as spaces, like a space of numbers or a space of strings. But I want to manipulate spaces as values.
21:34:32 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84128&oldid=84127 * Caenbe * (+12) Formatting; switch to Unicode
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22:08:47 <salpynx> I've been looking into topology of esolangs recently. I was trying to make a funge on an n-torus playfield, but have realised befunge and Rasel with jumps (trampoline/bridge) are just as n-torusy as what I had in mind
22:12:03 <salpynx> I'm in the process of writing a tool to graph the control flow of various languages to get an idea of how they can be embedded, to discover what kind of graph can be embedded on an (n>1)-torus
22:13:32 <salpynx> It does BCT, brainfuck, and python (to some extend; it ignores function calls atm). Next step is Befunge / Rasel. I'm especially interested in how rotations differ from reflections in the graph, and how to represent that.
22:16:20 <salpynx> Relating to the space question, I had thought of making each program symbol a 2d region on a surface rather that a point, which is what they seem to be by default. Rotations in space would then be real rotations in space, not just choosing a labelled edge to move to
22:16:41 <salpynx> That's all program space topology though, not data space
22:25:34 <salpynx> Hm, I have a WIP 2D rewriting language that has stalled. That might benefit from being thought of as "space rewriting" rather than graph (or net) rewriting
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22:46:28 <esolangs> [[BrainDots]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84129 * EnilKoder * (+595) init
23:05:48 <esolangs> [[Purl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84130&oldid=84125 * Caenbe * (+4) Grammar
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23:25:27 <esolangs> [[Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84131&oldid=84036 * Caenbe * (+2) /* Computational class */ Nice codeboxes
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00:12:15 <esolangs> [[BrainDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84132&oldid=84129 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
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00:18:39 <fizzie> Hmm. I wasn't *actually* planning to disconnect that other client yet, but I guess it made the decision for me. Tried to connect to it from this local system, but the client here went "SSL handshake failed: dh key too small" and apparently the bouncer process just died.
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01:43:51 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84133&oldid=84128 * Caenbe * (+15) /* Programs */ Changed section to Syntax and reworded
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02:36:14 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84134&oldid=84133 * Caenbe * (+0) Wording
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04:56:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Complack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84135 * TheCoderPro * (+176) Created page with "i personally think you should have an instruction to swap the elements of the current stack with another stack ~~~"
04:59:31 <Corbin> https://github.com/brightly-salty/mlatu A reasonable progression in the series of concatenative languages named after cat words.
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06:24:22 <nakilon> I'm thinking abot adding threads
06:24:30 <nakilon> to implement multiple stacks
06:25:13 <nakilon> the threaded instruction pointer will sleep on instructions that wait for a value pushed from another stack
06:26:51 <nakilon> smth like "t" to convert to two threads on the next two cells (not sure yet if you should copy the stack)
06:27:54 <nakilon> "0p" to push to higher thread; "1p" to push to lower thread; "g" to wait until smth is pushed in and jump on two next cells based on from which of two thread neighbours the value came from
06:29:42 <nakilon> mayba i and o instead of g and p
06:40:42 <nakilon> here is something threaded https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rui
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07:59:53 <esolangs> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84136&oldid=75249 * TheCoderPro * (+0) added dot
08:00:36 <esolangs> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84137&oldid=84136 * TheCoderPro * (+10) made a bit clearer
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09:18:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * D-Lord * New user account
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10:57:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84138&oldid=84078 * D-Lord * (+209) /* Introductions */
10:58:42 <esolangs> [[User:D-Lord]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84139 * D-Lord * (+322) Created page with "Hey ho. And welcome to this strange corner of the interwebs. I'm D-Lord or Denis and like most other users in here interested in many different things including esolangs. Th..."
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12:42:52 <esolangs> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84140&oldid=84086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) .
12:49:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ProtoBit * New user account
12:59:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84141&oldid=84138 * ProtoBit * (+201) /* Introductions */
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14:28:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84142 * Grs * (+1021) Created page with "== Welcome == Welcome to the talk section of OLNMLN! ===== Please read: ===== * Please don't remove anything, except if it's yours! * Don't swear or use bad words! * Don't hur..."
14:33:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84143&oldid=84142 * Grs * (+81)
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14:56:29 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84144&oldid=84050 * Grs * (+69) /* Commands */
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16:14:28 <esolangs> [[FourQueue/Interpreter.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84145 * Caenbe * (+3568) Added interpreter
16:17:43 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84146&oldid=84134 * Caenbe * (+382) Added interpreter
16:23:11 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84147&oldid=84146 * Caenbe * (+479) Added example
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16:23:56 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84148&oldid=84147 * Caenbe * (+2) /* Interpreter */
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16:28:02 <Guest60> Hi, I recently finished writing a language I want to make a page for but have tried and failed to make an account at least a dozen times now. Can anyone help me out?
16:28:11 <Guest60> this is the language https://github.com/KyleM73/AHHH
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16:36:17 <oerjan> Guest60: what's your problem with the account?
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16:48:32 <esolangs> [[FourQueue/Interpreter.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84149&oldid=84145 * Caenbe * (+20)
16:53:34 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84150 * Dominicentek * (+4047) Created page with "FolderCode is an esoteric programming language created by Dominicentek. It's main gimmick is that it's written as a folder structure with names being commands. FolderCode comp..."
16:54:02 <esolangs> [[FourQueue/Interpreter.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84151&oldid=84149 * Caenbe * (+17)
16:54:03 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84152&oldid=84150 * Dominicentek * (+73) /* Examples */
16:56:39 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84153&oldid=84152 * Dominicentek * (+37)
16:56:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: you are summoned for Guest60
16:58:16 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84154&oldid=84153 * Dominicentek * (-51)
16:59:18 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84155&oldid=84154 * Dominicentek * (-19)
17:03:27 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84156&oldid=84155 * Dominicentek * (+17)
17:06:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84157&oldid=84126 * Dominicentek * (-11) /* F */
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17:07:32 <fizzie> I don't know what could be the problem with registration -- as recently as earlier today "ProtoBit" seemed to be able to register.
17:09:47 <fizzie> There's that Befunge captcha, of course. But it uses a relatively limited subset, I imagine any online Befunge interpreter would correctly execute it.
17:12:20 <fizzie> Well, as long as it has sufficiently large stack cells, anyway. Possibly there's a toy one somewhere that uses three-digit decimal numbers or whatnot.
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17:27:30 <Guest6018> Hi, is anyone able to help me make an account? I was guest60 before but I got disconnected
17:28:26 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84158&oldid=84156 * Dominicentek * (+41)
17:36:23 <oerjan> . o O ( this isn't going to work )
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17:38:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ultlang * New user account
17:40:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84159&oldid=84141 * Ultlang * (+210) /* Introductions */
17:43:37 <esolangs> [[Delta Salein Ao]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84160 * Ultlang * (+177) Created page with "Delta Salein Ao, Delta Salein or is a programming language created by Ultlang. [[Category:Languages]][[Category:2021]][[Category:Cell-based]][[Category:Output only]]"
17:44:36 <esolangs> [[Delta Salein Ao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84161&oldid=84160 * Ultlang * (+59) yeaf
17:48:31 <Guest6018> How can I translate the Befudge code to make an account?
17:49:26 <oerjan> `befunge does this work?
17:49:29 <HackEso> befunge? No such file or directory
17:50:01 <oerjan> Guest6018: any befunge interpreter should work
17:50:31 <Guest6018> To protect the wiki against automated account creation, we kindly ask you to answer the question that appears below (more info):
17:50:31 <Guest6018> Which number does this Befunge code output: 9646332815>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
17:50:38 <oerjan> `! befunge 9646332815>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
17:51:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kylem73 * New user account
17:52:38 <oerjan> . o O ( now for the second step )
17:52:40 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't even think of them bots.
17:53:51 <fizzie> But there's a number of online Befunge interpreters. We link to at least one from the Befunge article.
17:54:15 <oerjan> does the captcha link to the Befunge article?
17:54:56 <fizzie> Although for some unfathomable reason all of them do this weird two-step procedure where, after you've input the program, you need to first click on an unintuitively labeled button ("Show", or "Init", or "To interpreter mode"; three real examples) before you can actually click on the intuitively labeled one ("Run") to execute it.
17:55:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84162&oldid=84159 * Kylem73 * (+160)
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17:55:36 <fizzie> I tried to make the captcha link to the Befunge article but MediaWiki does not allow HTML embedded in the captcha question.
17:55:59 <fizzie> That's also why the code is typeset in a proportional font, which is pretty sacrilegious.
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17:56:48 <fizzie> There is a link from the captcha page to [[Special:Captcha/help]] that could be edited to contain a link to the Befunge article, but I wonder if anyone would actually successfully navigate through all that.
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18:21:34 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84163&oldid=84083 * Grs * (+1037) Added changes (NOT IN CODE)
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18:23:43 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84164&oldid=84163 * Grs * (+18)
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18:53:55 <esolangs> [[AHHH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84165 * Kylem73 * (+4514) first save
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18:55:43 <esolangs> [[AHHH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84166&oldid=84165 * Kylem73 * (-27) not pseudonatural
18:57:48 <esolangs> [[AHHH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84167&oldid=84166 * Kylem73 * (+16)
18:58:59 <esolangs> [[AHHH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84168&oldid=84167 * Kylem73 * (+11) cell based
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19:50:16 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84169&oldid=84148 * Caenbe * (+0) /* Example */ Explanation was wrong
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19:58:33 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84170&oldid=84158 * Dominicentek * (+0)
20:00:57 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84171&oldid=84170 * Dominicentek * (+0)
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20:12:09 <esolangs> [[Delta Salein Ao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84172&oldid=84161 * Ultlang * (+412)
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20:32:36 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84173&oldid=84066 * Andrewarchi * (-8) Update the Whitespace Corpus to the current URL
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21:14:59 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84174&oldid=84069 * Caenbe * (+9) /* Commands */ Appears to be more accurate (again, from looking at examples)
21:16:34 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84175&oldid=84174 * Caenbe * (+191) Computational class
21:31:18 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84176 * S1(210) * (+6488) created page
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21:34:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Movesum]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84177 * Caenbe * (+310) Created talk page
21:39:32 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84178&oldid=84176 * S1(210) * (-3)
21:42:00 <esolangs> [[Andrew Phillips]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84179 * S1(210) * (+192) Created page with "'''Andrew Phillips''' is a programmer and esolang author. He has created the languages [[DeBruijn]] and [[Forwards]]. He contributes on this wiki as [[User:S1(210)]]. ..."
21:42:53 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84180&oldid=83645 * S1(210) * (-3) change user page link to author page link
21:44:10 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84181&oldid=83549 * S1(210) * (+25)
21:46:04 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84182&oldid=84178 * S1(210) * (+7)
21:46:44 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84183&oldid=84182 * S1(210) * (+13) /* The let Clause */
21:49:54 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84184&oldid=84183 * S1(210) * (-20) /* Style */
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21:51:06 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84185&oldid=84184 * S1(210) * (+0) /* Abstraction */
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22:18:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84186&oldid=84157 * Zero player rodent * (+25)
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23:33:49 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84187&oldid=84164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Commands */ Fmt table
23:35:32 <esolangs> [[Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84188&oldid=75830 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Syntax and Semantics */ Fix example (thanks to Caenbe)
23:38:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84189&oldid=84177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+326) Reply
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23:53:23 <zzo38> I found that Amiga has sound modulation. Why the MOD format does not include this command (perhaps the 8xx command)?
00:09:39 <esolangs> [[05ab1e]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84190 * Monochromeninja * (+20) Just a redirect.
00:22:04 -!- dutch has changed nick to SweetLeaf.
01:25:24 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84191 * Caenbe * (+1656) Added PMMN conversion
01:29:11 <esolangs> [[Blues machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84192&oldid=75036 * Caenbe * (+311) Added TC proof
01:32:09 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84193&oldid=84185 * S1(210) * (+14) /* Feature Specification */
01:36:08 <esolangs> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84194&oldid=72857 * TheCoderPro * (+759)
01:36:51 <esolangs> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84195&oldid=84194 * TheCoderPro * (+45) /* Instructions */
01:46:04 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84196&oldid=84191 * Caenbe * (+24) Back button
01:46:42 <esolangs> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84197&oldid=84195 * TheCoderPro * (+514) /* Instructions */
01:47:47 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84198&oldid=84196 * Caenbe * (-1) Fixed mistake
01:48:00 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84199&oldid=84198 * Caenbe * (-2)
01:49:28 <esolangs> [[User:TheCoderPro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84200 * TheCoderPro * (+5) Created page with "hello"
01:49:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:TheCoderPro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84201 * TheCoderPro * (+69) Created page with "HI -~~~"
01:59:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84202&oldid=84186 * MartinAsdf * (+15) added stackomp
02:03:21 <esolangs> [[Blues machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84203&oldid=84192 * Caenbe * (+43) The author wrote the interpreter, so I assume this was intended.
02:05:42 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84204&oldid=84199 * Caenbe * (-3) Of course, I'm so used to Python
02:06:00 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84205&oldid=84204 * Caenbe * (+1)
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02:55:39 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84206&oldid=84121 * Caenbe * (+270)
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03:39:04 <esolangs> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84207&oldid=82771 * Caenbe * (-1) /* List of OISCs */ The blues machine page does not say commands are memory-mapped, and the implementation (written by the creator) does not do it
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04:06:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:BytePushCore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84208&oldid=19121 * TheCoderPro * (+122)
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08:20:35 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84209&oldid=84003 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+48) /* Calculator */
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11:36:57 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84210 * Dominicentek * (+34) Created page with "Hi there! I made: * [[FolderCode]]"
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13:02:35 <esolangs> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84211&oldid=76593 * Jedgrei * (+0)
13:11:01 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
13:13:35 <HackEso> cat: cat: No such file or directory
13:13:56 <HackEso> ELF............>...../......@.................@.8..@.........@.......@.......@.......h......h..................................................................................................................... ....... ....... ......A......A.....................p.......p.......p................................P......P......P......................................................................
13:14:10 <nakilon> what was the command to see cources of other commands?
13:15:06 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
13:18:33 <b_jonas> nakilon: for commands that are implemented as shell scripts or similar, yes, you can use cat or cbt or /bin/cat
13:18:51 <b_jonas> nakilon: the user-defined commands are in /hackenv/bin
13:19:03 <b_jonas> nakilon: there's also a whatis command
13:19:08 <HackEso> ?(1hackeso) - print wisdom by name \ ?(8lambdabot) - compose tree of lambdabot commands
13:19:16 <HackEso> w(1) - Show who is logged on and what they are doing. \ w(1hackeso) - print random wisdom matching a string
13:19:22 <HackEso> myth//A myth is a female moth. \ 1295) <boily> (there's also that thing with the small yellow guys that I refuse to aknowledge, and nobody has any proof I went to the theatre to watch it.)
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13:29:20 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ CMD=`echo -n "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG="$(echo -n "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-)" \ exec $HACKENV/ibin/$CMD "$ARG$2"
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13:50:33 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84212&oldid=84075 * Batata * (+7913)
13:53:21 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84213&oldid=84171 * Dominicentek * (+117) /* Compiler, Runtime and Interpreter */
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14:01:34 <esolangs> [[Numeric Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84214&oldid=43262 * Caenbe * (+190) Cats and short blurb about the computational class
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14:13:34 <b_jonas> does any Pokemon game have a nethack-like extinction mechanism where if you kill a lot of a certain species of pokemon then it will no longer get generated as random encounter wild pokemon?
14:13:44 <b_jonas> and if so, what is the earliest generation that has such a mechanic?
14:13:52 <Taneb> Not to my knowlege
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16:03:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Luduk * New user account
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16:08:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84215&oldid=84162 * Luduk * (+264) Luduk joins the party! Hope you've got pizza!
16:19:04 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84216&oldid=84187 * Grs * (+352)
16:19:49 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84217&oldid=84216 * Grs * (-48)
16:22:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84218&oldid=84202 * Kylem73 * (+11) added AHHH
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16:24:31 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84219&oldid=84217 * Grs * (+91)
16:25:48 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84220&oldid=83546 * Kylem73 * (+52) added AHHH
16:28:28 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84221&oldid=84219 * Grs * (+49)
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16:58:24 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84222&oldid=84221 * Grs * (-132)
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17:08:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sawcce * New user account
17:08:59 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84223&oldid=84212 * Grs * (+198) /* Implementations */ OLNMLN
17:12:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84224&oldid=84215 * Sawcce * (+251) /* Introductions */
17:20:15 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84225&oldid=83978 * ResU * (+79)
17:34:23 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84226&oldid=83971 * ResU * (+55) added .print
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17:44:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Another Pi Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84227&oldid=18566 * ResU * (+94)
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17:57:54 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84228&oldid=84213 * Dominicentek * (+194)
18:04:53 <esolangs> [[Twitty]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84229 * Luduk * (+870) twitty, the unreliable
18:05:08 <esolangs> [[Twitty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84230&oldid=84229 * Luduk * (+4)
18:06:14 <esolangs> [[Twitty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84231&oldid=84230 * ResU * (+18)
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18:12:04 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84232&oldid=84226 * ResU * (+40)
18:13:43 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84233&oldid=84232 * ResU * (+0)
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18:36:17 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84234&oldid=84228 * Dominicentek * (-73) /* Version 1.1 */
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19:49:32 <esolangs> [[Nu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84235 * Caenbe * (+2990) Created Nu
19:50:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84236&oldid=84218 * Caenbe * (+9) /* N */ Added Nu
19:51:34 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84237&oldid=84206 * Caenbe * (+50)
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19:55:38 <Taneb> https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2021/06/1920-2020-and-a-20000-prize-announcing-the-s-combinator-challenge/
20:00:30 <salpynx> That is an interesting link.
20:06:23 <b_jonas> Taneb: that will either devolve in nobody caring, or another weird game of defining what it means like with the cellular automaton.
20:07:59 <Taneb> b_jonas: if it's towards the latter then it may well be done by the people here
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20:14:26 <salpynx> I'm now thinking through whether BCT can be done with S, and knowing the specific obstacle is for not being able to would be interesting to know
20:24:36 <esolangs> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84238&oldid=84235 * Caenbe * (+10) /* Graph rewriting */
20:24:49 <salpynx> Disproving it would be interesting too, esp. for $20K
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20:37:34 <Corbin> I'm not sure how to prove it in a way Wolfram would accept, but in general to be Turing-complete means to have a Turing category, which means to be Cartesian closed, which means that K needs to exist in order to delete/forget unused values and have constant functions.
20:38:55 <Corbin> I wonder if there's a beautiful Smullyan proof somewhere that S can't build K. I can imagine a Hofstadter-style informal proof which shows that S can't ever tear down structures like K can.
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20:47:32 <salpynx> the S version of K presumably would shuffle arguments away to a 'discard zone', out of the way and effectively dropped. Is there any possible space for an infinite use discard pile with S?
20:52:28 <Corbin> Hm, maybe this suggests that S can't implement I alone. That would be pretty damning.
20:54:05 <b_jonas> Corbin: hmm, let me check the bird book. I know it at least states that it can't implement K, but I don't know if there's a proof given
20:55:22 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84239&oldid=84209 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-20) Edited segments of the wiki.
20:55:28 <b_jonas> chapter 12 is the relevant one
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20:59:21 <b_jonas> I don't think it give a full proof for this
21:03:33 <Corbin> No worries, thanks for looking.
21:12:22 <b_jonas> you might be able to find a proof somewhere else, or reconstruct it from as much as Smullyan reveals there
21:15:53 <b_jonas> Corbin: do you need a summary of what he does say there that implies this?
21:31:09 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84240&oldid=84222 * Grs * (+17) /* Commands */
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22:15:36 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84241&oldid=84193 * S1(210) * (+4868) /* Feature Specification */ Complete Rewrite
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22:21:03 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84242&oldid=84241 * S1(210) * (+466) /* Reference */ reformatting...
22:21:30 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84243&oldid=83530 * Caenbe * (+281) /* Mathematics */ Idea
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22:33:45 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84244&oldid=84242 * S1(210) * (-133) /* Nonarithmetic Built-ins */ reformatting... eugh
22:53:13 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84245&oldid=84244 * S1(210) * (+1264) /* Arithmetic Built-ins */ Finally done reformatting?
23:01:19 <HackEso> Earthblight Ganon? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:32:41 <HackEso> Free Hero Mesh? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:39:50 <esolangs> [[Twitty]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84246&oldid=84231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* Important note */ Categories
23:43:12 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84247&oldid=84233 * ResU * (+474)
23:43:38 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84248&oldid=84243 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-28) /* Mathematics */ Link
23:47:02 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84249&oldid=84247 * ResU * (-6)
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23:56:31 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84251&oldid=84238 * Caenbe * (+831) Added 3 Star Programmer ex. and details about tree
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00:18:23 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84252&oldid=84251 * Caenbe * (-103) /* Graph rewriting */ This may not be true
00:21:50 <esolangs> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84253&oldid=84252 * Caenbe * (+3) /* Examples */ ;;;
00:32:37 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84254&oldid=84253 * Caenbe * (+136) /* Graph rewriting */ It is
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01:11:15 <Corbin> b_jonas: Oh wow, glorious work. I pulled out my copy of the bird book, and indeed, kestrels are not allowed in Bravura's forest!
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01:20:50 <Corbin> Okay, yeah. Smullyan points out that S is "duplicative", using arguments multiple times. The linear calculus, BCI, can't build S.
01:21:02 * ski first thought the bird book was Bird & de Moor
01:21:23 <ski> yes, and `S' can't build `K'
01:21:29 <Corbin> Similarly, S can't build K, because K is "cancellative" and completely forgets an argument.
01:22:05 <Corbin> I found https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-444-87508-2.50017-4 which is paywalled but suggests that this is so well-known that they try to use BCSI to *approximate* K-like behavior while admitting that K itself is not buildable.
01:24:17 <Corbin> ski: Oh, sorry. The context is that Wolfram offered a cash prize for anybody who can show that S is (Turing-?) complete. But I was sure that the bird book had a disproof, and b_jonas did the hard work of looking it up.
01:24:48 <ski> mm, yea. (just finished reading that article)
01:25:05 <ski> (the Wolfram blag)
01:42:46 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84257&oldid=83239 * Enoua5 * (+198) Reformat command table
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02:03:44 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84258&oldid=84257 * Enoua5 * (+2083) Add explanations to all examples
02:04:19 <salpynx> Wolfram already says any TCness has to be encoded in the non-terminating S combinator evolutions, so a direct K build is already ruled out
02:04:50 <zzo38> Pokemon Card GB2 does not list the previous stages of cards in play
02:04:52 <esolangs> <ski> <CTCP>ACTION . o O ( gnyrx ? )<CTCP>
02:08:50 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84259&oldid=84258 * Enoua5 * (+449) Add section explaining memory layout
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02:10:45 <salpynx> even Ix will need to be a non terminating encoding of x, so Kxy = Ix in some non terminating way which can be decoded by something that is not universal itself
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02:13:06 <salpynx> relevant quote from the announcement > And by “emulate”, what we mean here is that a suitable “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” can be found that will allow any evolution in the system being emulated to be mapped to a corresponding evolution in the S combinator system.
02:14:36 <Corbin> salpynx: Can you explain more what you see? I would naively and reductively assume that the I combinator simply isn't represented here; there's no way to emulate its (lack of) evolution.
02:16:21 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84260&oldid=84254 * Caenbe * (+13) Better wording
02:19:27 <salpynx> It's not directly representable, but I guess that's the question: can it 'emulate' K's "cutting things down" via some kind of encoding? It'd have to include 'junk' data, which would have to be ignored by the decoder in the final step to get the result
02:20:07 <salpynx> more of Wolfram's writing linked to from somewhere in the announcement: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2020/12/combinators-a-centennial-view/#the-world-of-the-s-combinator
02:24:15 <salpynx> Naively I wondered if you could use both sides of every K in every computation, then pick the 'real' one at the end. That'd be super inefficient with the combinatorics, and I don't know how you'd pick the correct version at the end. and it's probably more complicated than 'doing things twice' with K arguments
02:28:53 <salpynx> I guess my take is that a working emulated K in this hypothetical system must accumulate 'junk' which can be 'easily' discerned from the result of computation by the hypothetical decoder. Examining whether that kind of mechanism is possible or not is an avenue of attack.
02:30:07 <salpynx> My gut feel is any 'junk' would get smeared out through the whole combinatoric expression over time, and separating it won't be possible without doing an equivalent computation
02:34:02 <salpynx> also that Wolfram is talking about some meta computation requiring those “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” external parts to the system, and that's possibly, as was said above by @b_jonas: "another weird game of defining what it means"
02:36:58 <salpynx> I can imagine a giant stream of combinator S's which take a single K as an argument, and duplicates and places the Ks where they need to go for reproducing any algorithm. No idea if that's helpful, but it's playing with separating parts of the system
02:37:31 <Corbin> Although we know something about their shape, at least. The bounded-time description should lead (by a handwave) to the encoder and decoder being katamorphisms.
02:39:33 <Corbin> But note that the encoder can be as simple as the identity function, if we're targeting SKI, so the question is whether there's some composition of S alone which yields K and I. IOW I think we get back up to what's been covered.
02:42:16 <Corbin> Oh wow, https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/227904/solve-the-halting-problem-for-s-combinatory-logic implies that it's not Turing-complete. Reading the paper right now, but this could be it.
02:48:53 <salpynx> I think Wolfram know that though, and that's what I was picking up from his writing. To paraphrase what I think he's asking: Taking the infinite set of identifiable non-halting S Combinator expressions, is there some encoding which can give rise to an unresolvable halting problem in their evolutions?
02:49:56 <salpynx> (if there are not infinite non-halting evolutions, then it's really busted)
02:51:08 <Corbin> Let the codec be a genuine equivalence computable in poly time. Then wouldn't the codec's existence contradict Rice's Theorem?
02:51:15 <salpynx> Re-reading my paraphrase, that does sound sketchy, but I think that's what Wolfram is really asking.
02:51:38 <Corbin> I don't want to unfairly strawman Wolfram's question, but I'm really not sure if there's more to it than that.
02:53:56 <Corbin> Meh, "genuine equivalence" is vague and wrong. This isn't yet airtight, but it's suggestive.
02:58:52 <imode> wolfram's prize got its way to here, eh.
02:59:30 <imode> for S to be TC on its own it would have to re-order the expression so that past work doesn't get in the way of current work. because it can't, it's not TC. more rigorous proofs of that exist.
03:11:12 <Corbin> Makes sense. It sounds like there's three different ways to slice that S isn't TC: S can't even implement K or I, Halting for S is decideable, and now imode's point about divergence and order of operations.
03:13:42 <imode> it's probably equivalent to a pushdown.
03:13:48 <Corbin> Unrelated: https://github.com/TartanLlama/vizh Nice!
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03:34:41 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84261&oldid=84181 * S1(210) * (+346)
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04:20:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84263&oldid=84236 * S1(210) * (+15) /* F */ added [[Forwards]]
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04:55:12 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84264&oldid=84180 * S1(210) * (+40) making page conform more to esolang's style guide
04:57:04 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84265&oldid=84264 * S1(210) * (+0) /* External Resources */
04:58:01 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84266&oldid=84265 * S1(210) * (+1) /* External resources */
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10:17:53 <esolangs> [[RGB4D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84268 * Magnogen * (+3837) First commit
10:29:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sekoia * New user account
10:35:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84269&oldid=84224 * Sekoia * (+102) Introduction
10:36:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84270&oldid=84269 * Sekoia * (+54) Fix messup
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10:58:12 <esolangs> [[RGB4D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84271&oldid=84268 * Magnogen * (-2) ProtoBit
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11:10:11 <esolangs> [[Partitioned]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84272 * Sekoia * (+1378) Partitioned is a language based around partitions of 255 bytes that share a single byte.
11:11:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84273&oldid=84263 * Sekoia * (+18)
11:12:40 <esolangs> [[Partitioned]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84274&oldid=84272 * Sekoia * (+0) fix category typo
11:24:08 <esolangs> [[Tower]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84275 * Sawcce * (+2933) Created page with "= Tower = Tower is an esoteric language meaning it is designed to be fun to use or a headache to program in! This page is a copy of the walkthrough of the Tower also present..."
11:25:03 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84276&oldid=84275 * Sawcce * (-2) /* Tower */
11:25:51 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84277&oldid=84276 * Sawcce * (+42) /* Tower */
11:30:45 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84278&oldid=84277 * Sawcce * (+726) /* Commands */
11:53:36 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84279&oldid=84256 * ResU * (+138)
12:00:27 <esolangs> [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84280&oldid=58626 * DeeBo * (+73) /* External resources */
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12:33:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Meloons * New user account
12:45:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84283&oldid=84270 * Meloons * (+200) My description
12:47:00 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84284&oldid=84281 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Cat
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13:27:20 <b_jonas> Corbin: out of curiosity, is your IRC nick supposed to be from a bird too?
13:29:07 <b_jonas> and if so, is it a combinator bird?
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13:43:36 <b_jonas> wait, so the norwegian/danish alphabet is supposed to have the last letters in the order "z æ ø å", but the swedish/finnish alphabet in the incompatible order "z å ä ö"? that decides my earlier question about encoding IRC nicks, the norwegian one is more natural because then the iso-646 encoding order matches the alphabet. but the different alphabetic order is still weird, I wonder how that got
13:44:28 <b_jonas> I should have noticed this earlier because I've seen the swedish alphabetic order enough times and did look up the iso-646 encodings and should have noticed that it's in the wrong order
13:50:46 <nakilon> Russian alphabet ends with letters that are like a trash hidden in the corner of the room ШЩЪЫЬ and then suddenly perfectly normal vowels ЭЮЯ
13:59:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: 1. "Ю" is supposed to be a "normal vowel" but it's also one of the rarest letters, though admittedly "Ъ" is even rarer. I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash though. 2. the latin alphabet has trash letters too, in fact even the greek one has some at the end, and holes in the middle for the purpose of gemmatria, to preserve the original phoenician order. the hebrew alphabet is the
13:59:12 <b_jonas> only extant one that does not have trash at the end.
14:03:22 <nakilon> "I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash" -- the word traSH is literally ends with Ш; you can see that the "trash consonants ending" actually starts with Ф consonant: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
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14:04:04 <nakilon> Ъ and Ь aren't even either vowel or consonants -- they have no sound and words can start with them
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14:06:57 <nakilon> also you can see the Ж being the most rate in the "non-trash half of the alphabet" -- together with Ш they have a rule "can't place Ы after Ж и Ш" (mnemonically known as "ЖИ и ШИ пиши через И")
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14:10:52 <nakilon> such rules feel like a waste of entropy -- similar in English only U can go after Q and it's so weird that we didn't even learn it as a rule and I only realised it when I was like 20
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14:11:46 <b_jonas_> nakilon: were you 20 before or after Iraq was featured in the news a lot?
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14:12:07 <nakilon> also Ж and Щ are the most wide letters in any font
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14:14:11 <riv> http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/phistomefel-s-theorem-t38410.html
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14:16:27 <b_jonas> nakilon: yeah, I started to make a 6 pixel tall font, with variable width, where most characters are at most 3 pixels wide plus a 1 pixel gap (the gap is omitted between some pairs of characters), but because some letters are hard to draw that way, I have added a three-way option for whether "MNm" are all wide, or "Mm" are wide but "N" is narrow, or every ascii letter is narrow. these options also
14:16:33 <b_jonas> affect the russian letters, and indeed the three pixel wide versions are very ugly and mostly unrecognizable.
14:16:50 <b_jonas> I should eventually finish that tiny font and use it for some esoteric project
14:17:15 <b_jonas> I won't use it for everyday work, I have a large-sized fixed width font for that that I should improve
14:17:30 <b_jonas> (the basics are fine but I have to add some new characters and redo the hastily done greek letters)
14:17:39 <nakilon> OCR developers might hate Ы letter
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14:22:36 <nakilon> can't find English word for https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%B2%D1%8F%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82
14:23:22 <nakilon> ^ my father was связист in the army -- it's where you send and receive in Morze
14:24:16 <nakilon> so for speed considerations they were told to use Ижица (V) symbol for Ж because Ж was too big https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhitsa
14:30:13 <nakilon> Taneb yeah, probably this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signaller "Signallers, a.k.a. Combat Signallers"
14:30:37 <nakilon> idk what's the exact difference between radio and signalling, радист and связист
14:31:05 <Taneb> Perhaps signallers are also trained with lamps or flags or something
14:31:21 <Taneb> Whereas radio operators have some electric engineering training?
14:32:41 <nakilon> it's weird to use the word "signal" in two so different cases
14:34:54 <nakilon> yes, he was into the https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE (again no link to English wiki ..() that is about fixing and creating electronics yourself
14:36:02 <nakilon> basically he used only radio technologies, no visual stuff, the military base was underground actually
14:37:18 <nakilon> I would expect the English article to be named "Hobby electronics"
14:38:22 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_corps
14:45:00 <Corbin> b_jonas: Ha, that's a fun idea! Curiously, it seems that Smullyan didn't use any corvids (blackbirds, magpies, ravens, rooks, crows, bluejays, etc.) for their bird list.
15:02:30 <keegan> I should finish learning morse
15:05:44 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84285&oldid=83193 * Zero player rodent * (+0)
15:06:27 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84286&oldid=84285 * Zero player rodent * (+2)
15:07:15 <keegan> in amateur radio it is common to use the letter N in place of the numeral 9, for speed (-. versus ----.)
15:08:55 <keegan> so for example a perfect signal report will be given as 5NN [..... -. -.] instead of 599 [..... ----. ----.] for a time savings of more than 50%
15:11:01 <keegan> in the US it is possible to select your callsign (subject to restrictions) and operators who do a lot of CW (morse) will try to get one with a low "weight"
15:13:08 <nakilon> imagine IRC transmitted in morze
15:13:43 <HackEso> -- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ...- . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. .. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- ..
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15:14:13 <HackEso> morse? No such file or directory
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15:24:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:PaRappa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84287 * Caenbe * (+150) Created talk page
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15:27:39 <nakilon> can't figure out what animal the URSU is
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15:33:31 <fizzie> Surely it's MURSU, not URSU.
15:33:47 <fizzie> (And that's a walrus.)
15:34:38 <fizzie> I think that's from the lead paragraph of https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mursu
15:35:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84288&oldid=84143 * Grs * (-995) Replaced content with "Do you have any ideas to add something? -~~~ ~~~~~"
15:35:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84289&oldid=84288 * Grs * (-107) Blanked the page
15:39:53 <oerjan> fizzie: just looking through the logs and noticed that the new "has changed hostmask" showed someone's pre-cloaking host, which may be a bit unfortunate (although i think that means they're not following the advice of using sasl?)
15:41:37 <HackEso> cat: /hackenv/bin/morse: No such file or directory
15:41:49 <b_jonas> nakilon: URSU is probably a bear; I don't know about MURSU
15:41:50 <oerjan> shikhin: that was you by the way, you should use sasl
15:42:09 <nakilon> it's some wrong char in that string
15:42:14 <nakilon> leading non printable char
15:42:29 <nakilon> it makes all online decaders fail to decode it
15:42:35 <b_jonas> see https://xkcd.com/2381/
15:43:09 <b_jonas> "Smullyan didn't use any corvids" wait really? I thoguht he did... let me look up the English list
15:43:43 <b_jonas> Corbin: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic says "Blackbird"
15:44:47 <nakilon> `` ruby -e "p '18:13:43 <HackEso> -- ..- .-.'.dump"
15:44:49 <HackEso> "\"18:13:43 <HackEso> \\u200B-- ..- .-.\""
15:45:01 <oerjan> nakilon: it's the invisible space which HackEso prepends if the output starts with non-alphanumerics
15:45:10 <oerjan> it's to avoid triggering other bots
15:46:52 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84290&oldid=84237 * Caenbe * (-173)
15:47:53 <Corbin> b_jonas: Oh, nice, a bluebird of bluebirds. I guess I'm just a fancier sort of composition.
15:48:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: I still think this sasl thing is sort of a scam. I like SASL, but advertising it because some people's clients are broken and will join channels without waiting for nickserv identify to succeed is silly. waiting for nickserv to reply that you're identified, or waiting for the server to tell you your hostmask has changed if you do it for a cloak, isn't actually easier than doing the SASL stuff
15:48:36 <oerjan> b_jonas: automatically?
15:49:10 <oerjan> i think you may be biased by being a person who finds programming trivial hth
15:49:29 <b_jonas> it's the same sort of argument that leads to telling others that you shouldn't send notices because other people's clients are broken and render them wrong, or shouldn't send color codes because they annoy other people becuase their client shows them in ugly colors or whatever.
15:49:55 <shikhin> oerjan: Yeah, whoops, too lazy to set it up just yet, but thanks.
15:50:02 <nakilon> I won't call ability to join channels without identifying "being broken"
15:50:44 <nakilon> it's some flaw in the cloacking concept
15:51:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: someone has to put the SASL thing in the irc clients too, just as much as the rest. you can say that it's worth because it works the same on multiple networks, so it's easier to implement because of that. in particular, nickserv id works backwards between libera/freenode and oftc. that would be a good argument, except for that if you try SASL on a server that doesn't understand SASL, you'll get
15:51:33 <b_jonas> a hang. but that's not the argument they're making.
15:51:58 <b_jonas> if your IRC client doesn't know SASL, and you don't know programming, it's just as hard to teach it SASL
15:53:07 <nakilon> just don't disconnect from the server *shrug*
15:53:17 <oerjan> you're right, i was comparing apples and oranges
15:53:50 <nakilon> if you "know programming" you can set up a BNC and probably can find a machine with reliable network connection
15:53:59 <b_jonas> they could also make the argument that someone could guess when they'll reconnect after a disconnect, and WHO their hostmask before they rejoin the channel
15:54:24 <b_jonas> I'm not against SASL, only against the stupid arguments that some IRC folks make about it
15:54:50 <b_jonas> (and yes, freenode also requires SASL for some remote addresses as a way to control spam)
15:57:08 <oerjan> so ideally WHO shouldn't be possible until the SASL has gone through either...
15:57:24 <oerjan> no idea whether the servers enforce that
15:58:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, WHO isn't possible before SASL because your connection doesn't have a nick that WHO could target, nor a channel it's joined to
15:59:02 <b_jonas> SASL is before you choose a NICK
16:00:17 <nakilon> is there any standard on "Tags" in the unicode table? like if I ask for "looks like a dot" and it would come up with . and · and •
16:03:49 <keegan_> 08:53 < nakilon> just don't disconnect from the server *shrug*
16:03:55 <keegan_> in soviet russia, server disconnects from YOU!
16:04:06 <keegan_> (been a lot of that this morning...)
16:05:15 <keegan_> are the sore losers at freenode packeting libera?
16:05:27 <nakilon> this matches too many chars that are not dots https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=[:name=/\bDOT$/:]
16:05:46 <keegan_> or is it just growing pains
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16:15:19 <nakilon> this utility gives different sets of analogues for two different dots
16:15:27 <nakilon> https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp?a=.&r=None
16:15:29 <nakilon> https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=None
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16:18:03 <nakilon> there should be some Unicode similarity graph, probably made manually
16:20:33 <b_jonas> keegan_: no, it's spammers who spam both freenode and libera
16:20:47 <b_jonas> they target both, or whichever networks/servers are the most popular
16:21:29 <b_jonas> the sad part is when the spammers spam on freenode, then people go complain in #libera , even though the libera ops can't do anything to stop spam on freenode
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16:24:28 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, I guess I could remove the old one from the rendered view, or just omit the event entirely; it's not a super-interesting one.
16:24:57 <fizzie> The previous QUIT-and-JOIN combo contained the same information, I just wasn't rendering the hostname in QUITs (or JOINs).
16:25:55 <nakilon> also the https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/confusables.jsp tool can't find the char that looks like 'ф' that I saw somewhere just few minutes ago
16:26:12 <nakilon> while the https://shapecatcher.com/ found it immediately https://i.imgur.com/STqB0fG.png
16:28:15 <fizzie> Something I've always found slightly odd about CertFP auth is that the client needs to explicitly invoke SASL EXTERNAL to make the identification happen pre-login, even though it's not like there's any fundamental theoretical reason the server couldn't just... make it happen.
16:32:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: which one? ϕ (greek alternate) or a math or APL symbol?
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16:33:25 <nakilon> in that test search case I was looking exactly for the one that shapecatcher.com recognized
16:35:38 <b_jonas> nakilon: or ɸ the phonetic symbol?
16:38:09 <nakilon> "latin small letter qp digraph"
16:38:34 <nakilon> I expected the tool at unicode.org to give me it if I ask it for ф or Ф
16:38:47 <nakilon> because they are what I'm able to type
16:39:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: it does if you ask for ϕ
16:40:21 <nakilon> but I don't have a way to type it
16:41:31 <nakilon> opt+ф types 'd', opt+a types 'å'
16:43:00 <esolangs> [[Stop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84291&oldid=82999 * Caenbe * (+38) Cat
16:43:40 <nakilon> those shapecatcher guys could make an excellent similarity graph
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16:59:54 <esolangs> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84292&oldid=84267 * Caenbe * (+1) /* Binary Nu */
17:00:46 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> but I don't have a way to type it" =>
17:00:50 <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
17:00:54 <b_jonas> copy it from http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
17:17:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:OLNMLN]]": Author request: blanked by only commenter
17:35:54 <nakilon> I would not know it's in greek block if you didn't tell me
17:41:02 <b_jonas> it's a fricking greek letter phi
17:41:07 <b_jonas> how would it not be in the greek block?
17:41:16 <b_jonas> yes, it's an unnecessary second character for the same letter that already has one
17:41:36 <b_jonas> there's a tradition there of it appearing twice in some character sets, an old enough tradition, so it has to be represented twice in unicode
17:41:53 <b_jonas> and since that's an old enough tradition it was in the earliest versions of unicode in the 90s so it's in the greek block
17:42:48 <b_jonas> I can't even say it's wasting space, unlike some of the stuff that they put to the first (1<<12) code points, and yes, I was told that they hadn't invented utf-8 yet so they didn't know the first (1<<12) code points were special
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17:43:23 <nakilon> I don't imagine greek phi with that link pointing up, only down
17:45:42 <b_jonas> nakilon: to me it seems like the one with the straight line is a printed/carved form and the one with the loop is the handwritten form, sort of like the italic vs roman forms of many of the latin/cyrillic letters, which is why it's odd that it's double-encoded, but the greek script doesn't do that for many letters, so phi and theta got singled out
17:46:58 <b_jonas> it's probably Knuth who popularized having both in the same font in the same book
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17:48:42 <nakilon> also you write ф and phi differently -- in Russian it's like 8, you go up when switching from left half to right one, now like in phi where you just move right
17:49:14 <b_jonas> or perhaps it was Adobe, since one of their standard postscript fonts has both
17:49:53 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84293&oldid=82352 * Zero player rodent * (+98)
17:50:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: oh, you're saying that it's not actually similar to the russian phi so if you're searching for characters that look similar in appearance to the russian phi you wouldn't think to look in the greek block?
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17:52:34 <nakilon> that unicode.org tool does not give "qp digraph" for phi too
17:53:18 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/STqB0fG.png
17:53:38 <nakilon> (the second time I have a feeling you missed this link)
17:54:39 <b_jonas> I don't think I've ever seen that
17:54:54 <b_jonas> "Additions for Africanist linguistics
17:55:14 <nakilon> but somehow I saw it just two hours ago
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17:55:27 <nakilon> and then to test the unicode.org tool I tried to find it
17:55:36 <b_jonas> there are a lot of such supposedly roman letters that are only used as either phonetic symbols or trying to make a transcription for africian languages by linguists
17:55:40 <nakilon> by asking to show me letters similar to ф
17:55:58 <b_jonas> sure, they might exists but I ignore most of them unless they also happen to have some more common use
17:56:30 <b_jonas> most of the latin extended C block is such rare letters; this one is in latin extended B which has some more normal stuff
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18:08:04 <nakilon> if I had the similarity graph I would make such tool that...
18:09:36 <oerjan> "Labial-uvular stops are much rarer, but have been found in three Mangbutu-Efe languages spoken in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Uganda: Mamvu, and Lese."
18:09:53 <nakilon> you type "dot" and it finds all these chars https://unicodelookup.com/#dot/1 then finds the one with the smallest distance sum to all the rest and lists all them sorted by distance to that one
18:10:17 <oerjan> i guess that's what those africanists are studying
18:10:39 <nakilon> ...printing all these chars one per line, filling the line by all the chars in unicode that look like them
18:11:42 <nakilon> (I mean not similarity graph but similarity matrix)
18:12:49 <oerjan> hm nope, it's apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_labiodental_plosive
18:15:11 <nakilon> I have no idea what the "labiodental" mean but Afrika is Африка
18:15:42 <esolangs> [[RGB4D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84294&oldid=84271 * ProtoBit * (+763) Added truth machine program and some minor formatting improvements
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18:16:10 <oerjan> nakilon: f actually is labiodental
18:16:26 <oerjan> although this symbol represents a stop, not a fricative
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18:16:58 <oerjan> it means it's made with lips touching teeth
18:17:08 <riv> did anyone like my sudoku link?
18:17:13 <nakilon> bottom lip upper teech? I see
18:17:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84295&oldid=84273 * ProtoBit * (+12) Added RGB4D to the language list
18:18:11 <nakilon> my father loved solving sudoku
18:18:43 <oerjan> i used to but i'm out of practice
18:19:26 <nakilon> we were buying those newspapers and other printed things with them but he said they have too many digits already already filled in
18:20:18 <nakilon> so I've found that one guy in internet was collecting the sudoku boards that had the minimal number of digits shown, IIRC it was 18, and he had an archive of thousands of them
18:21:13 <nakilon> so I made my father a program that he launches and it makes a PNG file with next puzzle ready to be sent to printer
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18:22:48 <nakilon> though I felt like he finds it to be less interesting than buying in a kiosk
18:23:36 <b_jonas> nakilon: print them on cheap low quality paper and give yours to the kiosk to sell them back to him?
18:23:53 <nakilon> sounds like a business idea
18:24:19 <b_jonas> yeah, they can sell extra copies to others
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19:38:08 <arseniiv> what do you do when Newton’s method doesn’t make the root more accurate when it appears it could add another decimal digit? The equation is polynomial, even a simple one: x^N − x − 1 = 0. I make numpy give me roots, pick the largest real one and try to make it better
19:39:14 <arseniiv> there’s at least one case when naive algorithm x ↦ (x + 1) ^ (1/N) makes x^N − x − 1 closer to zero than this approach
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19:40:35 <arseniiv> ah, no, N = 11 is fine, two Newton iterations suffice
19:42:08 <arseniiv> though I don’t need to chase bits, I guess I’m fine with 1e−15 errors too
19:43:22 <arseniiv> finally some rain and thunder here
19:44:01 <nakilon> velik, good thing you don't have to deal with floating point right?
19:44:52 <arseniiv> seems improbable there was no major rain for two or more weeks. Usually the climate here is more humid in summer, I even despise rains sometimes, when the weather is cyclonic and cold and all that windy unsummery stuff
19:47:41 <b_jonas> arseniiv: is the magnitude of the derivative significantly less than 1 at the root?
19:47:54 <b_jonas> it should be, otherwise you shouldn't use Newton's method as is
19:48:29 <b_jonas> or something like that, that's probably not the right criteria, I'm bad at this
19:50:01 <arseniiv> b_jonas: gotta analyze, but I think it should be decent
19:53:17 <arseniiv> the derivative at the root is N − 1 + N x^−1, and as x > 1, that’s always > N − 1; for large N it’s asymptotically 2 N − 1 as x → 1
19:54:10 <arseniiv> so that’s float magic we’re to blame here
19:55:04 <arseniiv> also maybe the root values are okay and the error is more due to x^N − x − 1. I’ll check with a CAS maybe
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20:10:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84296&oldid=84283 * Jetison333 * (+243) /* Introductions */
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20:52:46 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ok, but I'm not sure that's actually the right condition
20:53:06 <b_jonas> so you may have to look up what the actual condition for stability is
20:53:35 <arseniiv> though I’m pretty satisfied as it is
20:53:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: by the way, you do know that reinventing the wheel for computing the root of a polynomial equation on the reals is in general a bad idea unless you're really good at numerical analysis, because there are existing good libraries for it, right? you can still do it for practice or learning
20:55:54 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I know! I actually started with the existing numpy function for that and I still use it
20:56:38 <arseniiv> but two Newton iterations on top of it make things even better though, for better or for worse (actually, just a single one is necessary for large N)
20:57:04 <arseniiv> also it’s a headache to write your own numeric code in large quantities!
21:06:04 <zzo38> I did make Newton fractal before, which is based on Newton's method
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21:18:43 <esolangs> [[A returns a]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84297 * Jetison333 * (+3768) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{wrongtitle|title=a{a}}} '''a{a}''' (pronounced a returns a) is an esolang that is based on recursion. A function is just a list of cases, and can be defined b..."
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21:27:22 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84298&oldid=84295 * Jetison333 * (+23) /* A */
21:28:15 <esolangs> [[User:Jetison333]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84299 * Jetison333 * (+82) Created page with "So far I've made one esolange, [[A returns a|a{a}]], but I hope to make more soon."
21:29:50 <esolangs> [[A returns a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84300&oldid=84297 * Jetison333 * (+1)
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22:30:25 <fizzie> https://ai.facebook.com/blog/nethack-learning-environment-to-advance-deep-reinforcement-learning/ might have some overlap with people on this channel too.
22:37:31 <nakilon> meh, wanted to make IRC morse encoder/decoder the only morse ruby gem that can encode Cyrillic is packaged in the wrong way (with dependencies lock file included) while one of the dependencies is made in the wrong way (has binary with a name 'console' that is conflicting)
22:38:48 <nakilon> yesterday I learned that the average length of working at Facebook is 8 months
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22:40:18 <nakilon> (missed ", but" somewhere above)
22:45:03 <nakilon> when your repo is a dependency for 4500 other repos and all them don't install because you can't ./bin properly https://github.com/krisleech/wisper/issues/183
22:45:12 <fizzie> Does that average take internships into account too, I wonder.
22:47:00 <nakilon> it was in a "podcast" talk interview with a girl who's currently in some consulting about how to build things
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23:03:37 <b_jonas> you esoteric guys are infecting me
23:04:10 <b_jonas> I felt a sudden urge to spell "preemptive" with a diaræsis. I could suppress it this time, but it's worrying
23:05:59 <fizzie> Just coöperate with us and you won't get hurt.
23:06:50 <fizzie> I think I saw "coöperation" spelled that way in a book (of fiction) somewhat recently.
23:08:12 <fizzie> “So we’re competing against a fuel cell for the available oxygen?” Arsibalt asked. “Think of it as coöperation.” (Anathem, Neal Stephenson)
23:09:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: that doesn't work, "ö" and "ü" just look to me like it's an umlaut changing the vowel value rather than a diaresis to separate adjacent vowels, unless perhaps it's in French text where they look a bit more confusing (even though "ö" and "ü" are very rare in French in that context)
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23:09:59 <b_jonas> but "ë" does look like it has a diaresis, because I don't see that one used as an umlaut often
23:10:19 <b_jonas> I'm not saying it never happens, but it's not as common as with "ö" and "ü"
23:10:28 <imode> what should the minimal resolution of a glyph be.
23:11:20 <fizzie> Yeah, I do find myself forced to think of the Finnish ö (/ø/) sound whenever I see ö in "coöperation", and it does sound pretty silly.
23:11:22 <b_jonas> imode: depends on the script, I am working on a 6 pixel tall tiny latin font, but I'd never consider a 6 pixel tall kanji or hangul or vietnamese font, those just need more space
23:11:46 * imode prefers powers of two.
23:12:38 <b_jonas> even "ä" looks like an umlaut to me, even though technically "ë" as umlaut is more common in Hungarian, but "ä" is prevalent because of all the german and swedish texts
23:13:30 <imode> gimme da chonky 8x8 glyphs.
23:14:03 <oerjan> 1x1 is the best minimal power of 2 hth
23:14:04 <b_jonas> 8 pixel tall is well proven on many older computer displays and printers
23:14:27 <b_jonas> fecupboard20 my font is 20 pixel tall, that's why it's called that
23:15:24 <b_jonas> there used to be a fecupboard16, but I no longer use it, it doesn't have decent character coverage, it doesn't look nice, and I'm not distributing it because it's not a free font
23:15:49 <b_jonas> I used to use it on VGA text console
23:16:48 <fizzie> I think my SparcStation 5 had a 12x22 pixel font in its ROMs.
23:17:10 <fizzie> I think it was a little quirky though.
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23:17:37 <imode> something I'm contemplating is doing sub-glyphs.
23:18:04 <imode> either shipping an 8x8 or 4x4 "shape" pack and building glyphs on top of that.
23:18:15 <imode> so your text would probably be chonk.
23:22:06 <imode> https://mrmotarius.itch.io/mrmotext
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23:31:42 <zzo38> I have 8x8 fonts for code page 437, 850, 865, 866, and 1125.
23:33:09 <imode> are there really thousands of codepages now.
23:34:33 <b_jonas> doesn't even DOS 6.22 include one for 852 that you can enable with MODE ?
23:34:54 <b_jonas> by changing to 852 codepage and to 50 line mode on VGA that is
23:35:30 <b_jonas> but if not, you can just make such a font from a 8x8 unicode font with enough coverage
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23:37:00 <gundalow7> ／！\ THIᏚ CHΑNⲚEL HAЅ MΟVEᎠ ΤO IᏒC．LⅠBΕᎡA．ϹHAТ ＃НAMᎡADIΟ /ǃ＼
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23:38:36 <HackEso> [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+01C3 LATIN LETTER RETROFLEX CLICK] [U+FF3C FULLWIDTH REVERSE SOLIDUS]
23:38:41 <esolangs> brctl: Filter expressions: (/|⧸|／)(!|！|ⵑ|︕)(\|﹨|＼|⧵) /!\\
23:39:14 <fizzie> Hmm, it might be missing U+01C3 in the middle part.
23:39:28 <HackEso> [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK] [U+FF3C FULLWIDTH REVERSE SOLIDUS]
23:39:57 <imode> language and writing is complicated.
23:40:15 <fizzie> brctl: unfilter (/|⧸|／)(!|！|ⵑ|︕)(\|﹨|＼|⧵)
23:40:26 <fizzie> brctl: filter (/|⧸|／)(!|！|ⵑ|︕|ǃ)(\|﹨|＼|⧵)
23:40:31 <imode> I wonder what subset of UTF-8 will fit in an 8x8 character cell.
23:41:01 <fizzie> By definition all of it, unless you put a fidelity requirement on it.
23:41:13 <fizzie> There's 2^64 different 8x8 characters, after all.
23:41:43 <imode> legible characters.
23:42:01 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84301&oldid=83935 * Batata * (+60)
23:42:05 <fizzie> That's just a matter of training your users, surely.
23:42:06 <imode> guess I should just learn to read in 64-bit code blocks.
23:45:07 <fizzie> ▜▘▌ ▝ ▗▖ ▄▖ ▗▖▄ ▄ ▌ ▗ ▌ ▄ ▖▖ ▌ ▟▖▗ ▖▖▗ ▗▖▗ ▗▖▄ ▝ ▄▖▗ ▖▖▝ ▟▖▌ ▗ ▖▖▟▖ ▗▖▗ ▄ ▟▖▗ ▖▖▟▖
23:45:11 <fizzie> ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖ ▖▘ ▌ ▄▌▌▌ ▛▖▛▘ ▛▖▄▌▛ ▞▌ ▐ ▌▌ ▛ ▛▘▌ ▌▌▚▌▌▌▐ ▖▘▛▘ ▙▌▐ ▐ ▛▖▌▌▌▌▐ ▌ ▌▌▌▌▐ ▛▘▞▖▐
23:45:15 <fizzie> ▝ ▘▘▝ ▀ ▀▘ ▝▘▀▘▘▘ ▀ ▝▘ ▘▘▀▘▘ ▝▘ ▘▝ ▘ ▝▘▝▘▝ ▄▘▘▘▝ ▀▘▝▘ ▀▘▝ ▘▘▘▝ ▝▘ ▘ ▝▘▝ ▘▘ ▘▝▘▘▘ ▘▝
23:46:10 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84302&oldid=84301 * Batata * (+45)
23:46:18 <imode> "this 2 can be hard to recognize without context"
23:46:27 <fizzie> It's a "z", as you can tell from the same pixels in "recognize".
23:47:05 <fizzie> I tried to use that font at work in Chat, but while it made the block-drawing characters monospaced, the spaces stayed proportional, and it went all wrong.
23:47:28 <imode> the 'e' looks all fucked up, like it compressed it.
23:47:52 <imode> I.. actually do not know whether my terminal font is monospaced. I think it is.
23:48:16 <zzo38> imode: Many of the lwer code page numbers are EBCDIC rather than ASCII, so the code page numbers used modern are high larger numbers.
23:48:28 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't have 852.
23:48:36 <imode> zzo38: meant it to be a joke.
23:49:09 <zzo38> Is there a code page number for TRON?
23:49:21 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/ref.png if you want to see a reference rendering. I do like the "z" in that though.
23:49:41 <imode> oh that looks nothing like mine.
23:49:54 <imode> everything is all cronched together.
23:50:27 <imode> if you added curvature/smooth corners to the block shapes, it'd be better.
23:50:35 <imode> at least more parseable.
23:50:41 <fizzie> That's probably some sort of a width difference between space and the blocks, because that's a good description of what it looked like in Chat.
23:51:09 <imode> yeah. those blocks are definitely compressed length-wise for me.
23:51:32 <imode> because the top pixel on the 'e' is like, 1px by 8px.
23:52:08 <fizzie> Huh, that's awkward. Oh well.
23:54:08 <zzo38> Code page 852 is one of the ones I wanted though, so that if Berusky game is ported to Free Hero Mesh, that the proper orthography can be in use. (Also maybe should be added the possibility to use other font sizes too, although currently a lot of the code assumes that 8x8 fonts are used, so they will need to be changed if it is to be implemented.)
23:55:20 <fizzie> Heh, well... it didn't turn out great in my web browser on the logs page either: https://zem.fi/tmp/ref2.png
23:56:22 <fizzie> And that's styled as `font-family: monospace;` and all.
23:56:30 <imode> eugh that alignment.
23:57:33 <zzo38> My own opinion is that Unicode is bad for grid-based text displaying.
23:57:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's an interesting tiny font. has some decisions different from what I made in my tiny font
23:58:13 <b_jonas> even if it's the same size, most of the letters differ
23:59:34 <fizzie> It's the one I did for rfk86, I think with the main inspiration being mooz's TI-86 Befunge interpreter's font probably, though it's not exactly same as that one either.
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04:20:33 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84303&oldid=84259 * Enoua5 * (+2954)
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07:18:44 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84305&oldid=83982 * Oshaboy * (+556) I made a mistake in JSFuck
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09:50:27 <velik> \morse <EN or RU text>
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09:53:53 <velik> .... . .-.. .-.. --- / .-- --- .-. .-.. -..
09:54:07 <velik> \demorse <EN morse code>; \demorse ru <RU morse code>
09:54:16 <nakilon> \demorse .... . .-.. .-.. --- / .-- --- .-. .-.. -..
09:54:27 <nakilon> \demorse ru .... . .-.. .-.. --- / .-- --- .-. .-.. -..
09:54:42 <nakilon> \demorse -- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ...- . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. .. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- ..
09:54:44 <velik> MURSU ON SUURIKOKOINEN VESIELMN SOPEUTUNUT ARKTINEN NISKSLAJI
09:54:53 <nakilon> \demorse ru -- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ...- . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. .. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- ..
09:54:54 <velik> МУРСУ ОН СУУРИКОКОИНЕН ЖЕСИЕЛЯМЯЯН СОПЕУТУНУТ АРКТИНЕН НИСЯКЯСЛАЙИ
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09:56:22 <nakilon> is it some finnish letter modifier?
10:04:42 <esolangs> [[Velik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84306&oldid=83996 * Nakilon * (+295) added \morse and \demorse examples
10:07:05 <fizzie> (Which some online decoder converted into an Æ when I looked that up, so I presume it's that in some other dialect of morse code.)
10:09:54 <nakilon> can't find it here https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-M.1677-1-200910-I
10:10:59 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code#Letters,_numbers,_punctuation,_prosigns_for_Morse_code_and_non-Latin_variants has it listed under the vague "non-Latin extensions" category, as "shared by Ä, Æ, Ą".
10:14:30 <fizzie> Making it Я in the Cyrillic flavor is moderately consistent, though. The Finnish ä is nominally /æ/, which I take it я could in some situations sound like.
10:14:45 <nakilon> that only gem that can Cyrillic -- I forked it to fix the broken dependency, but it appeared to emit only ASCII (for Russian you explicitly pass `:ru` and it emits UTF-8 with Я for .-.-)
10:15:45 <nakilon> another gem, that probably can those extensions, can't Cyrillic ..\
10:17:25 <nakilon> because first gem author is Russian
10:17:32 <nakilon> the second gem author is Japanese
10:19:43 <fizzie> I probably shouldn't have said "nominally", the Finnish ä *is* /æ/, we have a pretty strict 1:1 mapping of graphemes and phonemes, with just a few tiny little special cases around things like /ŋ/ (an "n" before a "k" is a short /ŋ/ instead of the usual /n/, and "ng" turns into a long /ŋː/).
10:24:10 <nakilon> checked, the Japanese gem supports japanese chars but not this extension: => "MURSU ON SUURIKOKOINEN VESIEL.-.-M.-.-.-.-N SOPEUTUNUT ARKTINEN NIS.-.-K.-.-SLAJI"
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11:31:25 <b_jonas> nakilon: or you could just write your own morse encoder and decoder
11:32:57 <nakilon> I could pull request one of them to include another alphabet
11:33:18 <nakilon> but I'd like to keep these simple https://github.com/Nakilon/nakiircbot/blob/master/example_libera_velik/remote_morse/app.rb
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12:05:18 <esolangs> [[S l o w]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84308&oldid=84307 * Oshaboy * (+44) Added link
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13:13:00 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84309&oldid=84304 * Enoua5 * (-251) Bracket cards not needed for this one
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13:35:45 <esolangs> [[Redstone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84311&oldid=58708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) Categorize
13:36:17 <esolangs> [[Redstone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84312&oldid=84311 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) Fix
13:44:59 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84313&oldid=84309 * Enoua5 * (+889) /* Hello, world! */
13:48:45 <nakilon> https://proglangdesign.net/
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14:04:31 <esolangs> [[User:Enoua5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84314&oldid=54260 * Enoua5 * (-351) Delete section "Languages I know"; I kinda just.. know *programming* now
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14:28:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitcoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84315&oldid=80795 * MathR * (+174) /* Turing-completeness */
14:41:19 <esolangs> [[S l o w]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84316&oldid=84310 * Magnogen * (+5) I'll
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15:19:55 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84317&oldid=84234 * Dominicentek * (+549)
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16:30:31 <zzo38> The same morse code for "A" with two dots above also stands for a line break, and a equal sign also stands for a paragraph break, it look like
16:51:19 <keegan> I thought those sort of breaks were done with pauses
16:53:41 <keegan> looks like the equals sign is the same code as the <BT> prosign which means "break" or "start new section of message"
16:54:51 <keegan> and Ä is the same code as <AA> which means space down one line
16:55:00 <keegan> in the ARRL National Traffic System
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16:58:45 <keegan> i don't know very many of the prosigns
17:15:01 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84318&oldid=84317 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+63) /* Version 1.0 */ See laso
17:15:17 <esolangs> [[Folders]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84319&oldid=78501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* See also */ Add
17:15:30 <esolangs> [[Dirst]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84320&oldid=75130 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* See also */ Add
17:15:50 <esolangs> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84321&oldid=75128 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* See also */ Add
17:16:09 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84322&oldid=84318 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* See also */ Cat
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17:22:39 <nakilon> anyone into image processing?
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17:34:44 <nakilon> I wish there were jobs for programmers in Russia so I won't forget math after all these years
17:35:25 <nakilon> I'm trying to solve the captcha https://i.imgur.com/MTplwa8.png
17:36:30 <nakilon> I already have the text recognition half of the problem solved previously now I need to solve the deformation problem
17:38:46 <nakilon> so I have these two skeleton lines; how do I find some ^3 approximation for them? exactly to be able to iterate dot by dot along the approximation
17:40:01 <nakilon> but probably I should find some already existing gem...
17:58:23 <esolangs> [[Bitcoin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84323&oldid=80787 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) /* Examples */ cats
18:09:22 <nakilon> probably this https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Polynomial_regression#Ruby but I have no idea what do the 1.0 2.0 3.0 mean here
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18:27:43 <riv> nakilon, i wouldnt use a cubic curve
18:28:12 <riv> in image 3, is only 1 pixel for every y coordinate filled
18:29:02 <riv> you could create a piecewise linear "curve" by just doing (x1,y1),(x2,y1),.. for x moving from left to right
18:29:23 <riv> and then you can smooth this and calculate normals
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18:41:48 <zzo38> Is there a extension for Firefox to display formatted JSON? (It already can display formatted XML, but I want that for JSON too; it happens often enough that I try to access some URL and the response is in JSON format.)
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18:44:39 <zzo38> (The "view source" could still be used if you want to display the raw JSON data, anyways)
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18:53:19 <^[> I think it's already built in.
18:53:47 -!- mnrmnaugh has changed nick to awk.
18:54:35 <^[> There's a "JSON" tab with an interactive tree, and a "Raw Data" tab.
18:57:23 <zzo38> Maybe it is a newer version than I have, then
18:58:38 <riv> there is one for chromium
19:00:35 <^[> "The JSON viewer is new in Firefox 44." https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/JSON_viewer
19:12:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Toxinite * New user account
19:21:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84324&oldid=84296 * Toxinite * (+231)
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19:34:09 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84325&oldid=84305 * Oshaboy * (-188) Reduced the JSFuck Truth machine by about 200 chars
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20:07:41 <b_jonas> nakilon: I have some qualifications for image processing
20:09:25 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> I wish there were jobs for programmers in Russia" => sounds like a strong enough reason to consider migrating if there aren't
20:11:25 <b_jonas> nakilon: "to be able to iterate dot by dot along the approximation" => try sorting the pixels left to right, then again top the bottom, then again top left to bottom right, then again bottom left to top right, see which of the four results in less total distance
20:12:01 <b_jonas> do you have a larger sample of these captchas? it's hard to go from just one
20:12:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: firefox already displays formatted JSON in the current version
20:15:53 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84326&oldid=84240 * Grs * (+43) /* How it works */
20:18:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84327 * Grs * (+81) Created page with "~~~: If you have any programs post it here:"
20:19:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84328&oldid=84327 * Grs * (-81) Blanked the page
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20:26:36 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84329&oldid=84326 * Grs * (+1) /* Hello World! */
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20:45:54 <nakilon> I want to iterate over every original pixel and find the closest one on the approximation curve to then find its coordinates in the corrected space
20:46:01 <nakilon> but idk how to find the closest one
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20:49:33 <nakilon> as an approximation I can find the closest one among those on the skeleton though
20:53:14 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84330 * Toxinite * (+781) Created page with "'''Qwerty oriented impractical bicharacter language''' (qoibl) is an esoteric programming language created on the 10th of June 2021 by [[User:Toxinite]]. {| class="wikitable"..."
20:54:11 <b_jonas> nakilon: what kind of approximation curve do you have?
20:55:06 <b_jonas> is it a spline? or y is a polynomial of x?
20:55:29 <nakilon> polynomial; idk other way to make an approximation
20:56:19 <b_jonas> then why don't you just use the point with the matching y coordinate? isn't that also how you optimized the approximating curve?
20:57:38 <nakilon> that's not the closest one
20:57:47 <nakilon> I need to restore space shape
20:58:24 <nakilon> find the corresponding normal
21:05:28 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84331&oldid=84330 * Toxinite * (+92)
21:08:44 <nakilon> that rosetta code gave these coefficients [-69.02347358088862, 5.116073840910607, -0.09317624841538175, 0.0008300975974690756, -2.7594210609514763e-06]
21:09:02 <nakilon> for left word; counting left top corner as (0,0)
21:10:30 <nakilon> hm, searching for the closest among that skeleton won't work because the skeleton ends aren't going far enough
21:12:16 <nakilon> someone in internet says "One way to approximate the solution is to discretize the curve into a polyline", heh, like riv said
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21:19:39 <nakilon> even iterative newton method won't work because of the space distortion
21:20:24 <nakilon> I guess I'll just calculate a thousand of polynom dots along the image and then search among all of them
21:22:06 <nakilon> but then I'll have to multiply the X distance between them by derivative... things are more complex than I imagined _-- will have a long fight with bugs
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21:42:01 <b_jonas> but why do you need the closest?
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21:56:20 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/PCodCHm.png
21:57:14 <nakilon> I take green point and find the corresponding blue normal to the red axis that is distorted in original image but is straight in the corrected space
21:57:42 <nakilon> I mean I don't find the normal but where it intersects the red curve
21:59:17 <nakilon> current problem is to somehow convert the original X to resulting X'
21:59:46 <nakilon> because I have to continuously multiply by derivative so it's like integral _<>
22:01:38 <nakilon> so I have a starting point of my curve segment with 1000 points on it
22:01:52 <nakilon> and I need to calculate its length
22:07:13 <nakilon> if local length is abs(derivative) then the total length is antiderivative(abs(derivative))...
22:08:55 <nakilon> looks like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve#Length_of_a_curve
22:10:31 <nakilon> I've no idea how to calculate it
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22:57:51 <nakilon> > points.map{ |v,x,y| x }.minmax
22:57:52 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘|’
22:57:56 <nakilon> > points.map{ |v,x,y| y }.minmax
22:57:58 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘|’
22:58:41 <nakilon> this image seems to be of 3000:150 aspect ratio
22:59:10 <nakilon> that sounds close to the aspect ratio of the first word when the space is corrected
22:59:33 <nakilon> now I need somehow to convert the array of dots to an image filling the gaps
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23:26:58 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/0iK27nR.png
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23:34:12 <nakilon> the shape looks correct though https://i.imgur.com/MZx8oB6.png
23:36:11 <nakilon> not sure what's wrong with last 9 columns, why they don't finish the rectangle
23:45:45 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84332&oldid=84331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Cats/templates
23:46:02 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84333&oldid=84332 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Fix
00:10:05 <zzo38> Have you played the "Gruniozerca" series of computer games? Do you know if they will make a fourth?
00:19:43 <nakilon> horraaaaaay https://i.imgur.com/wpdljVj.png
00:22:18 <nakilon> I was thinking about this for ~10 years and finally made it
00:24:18 <nakilon> corrected shape of captcha word https://i.imgur.com/MTplwa8.png
00:28:03 <nakilon> few minutes think up, ten years of hesitating and few hours to implement
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02:36:44 <b_jonas> nakilon: I'd still like to know if you have more example inputs of those captchas
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03:11:10 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84334&oldid=83857 * Goglesq * (+19) /* math(variable, equation) */
03:12:21 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84335&oldid=84334 * Goglesq * (-5) /* getin(variable) */
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03:17:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HecknTarnation * New user account
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03:24:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84336&oldid=84324 * HecknTarnation * (+214)
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06:12:52 <zzo38> Now I made in Free Hero Mesh that it remembers which levels you have solved and it is writing the level number green in that case, rather than red. However, it does not yet have a menu to display a list of all of the levels, nor the possibility to make a SQL query on the list of levels; hopefully these things can be added in future
07:10:59 <nakilon> b_Jonas not yet, gotta collect them for ml anyway
07:12:46 <nakilon> Thelounge is weird on mobile. Keyboard takes one half of screen. Browser address bar, topic and input takes another half. Can't read while typing
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07:16:34 <nakilon> Still have no idea why right 9 columns were not full
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07:27:32 <nakilon> Also imgur is awful on mobile (
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07:36:20 <nakilon> (better if you switch to desktop mode)
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08:18:41 <arseniiv> I think someone already joked about ACIDIC language but I came up with yet another deacronymization: “allegedly circuitous immaterial divine instruction code”
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12:21:36 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84337&oldid=84284 * ResU * (+329) Two cats, no dogs
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12:30:11 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84338&oldid=84337 * ResU * (+97)
12:31:36 <nakilon> arseniiv wasn't here a hackeso command to generate abbreviations?
12:32:21 <arseniiv> nakilon: hmmm don’t think I’ve seen one!
12:32:31 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84339&oldid=84338 * ResU * (+1)
12:32:33 <nakilon> hackeso needs a regex search for commands by name and/or description
12:32:51 <arseniiv> playing FEZ right now, it’s a great fun
12:36:14 <nakilon> I feel handicated having no logs search in Thelounge
12:37:54 <nakilon> and there is no website with #esolangs log search, right?
12:40:51 <arseniiv> hm I thought there were pages with each full year of logs but there are only full-month pages
12:41:48 <arseniiv> fizzie: do you know where can the logs be searched?
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12:46:49 <ais523> how unreasonable would a 20MB web page be in 2021?
12:47:04 <ais523> I know that ridiculous web pages sizes are common, but am not sure if they can reasonably be *that* large
12:51:04 <esolangs> [[Delta Salein Ao]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84340&oldid=84172 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stub
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12:53:21 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84341&oldid=84339 * ResU * (+195)
12:54:39 <b_jonas> ais523: 20 MB is possible if it serves multiple high resolution images or a small video
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12:55:52 <ais523> in this case, it would be 20MB of compressed text
12:56:09 <ais523> the context is, trying to host an esolang interpreter
12:56:18 <ais523> that uses a compression algorithm with a really big dictionary
12:56:19 <arseniiv> ais523: I’d add if the large part of its content is cacheable then maybe not that bad
12:56:37 <b_jonas> nakilon: "a regex search for commands by name" => grep -Eie "$1" /hackenv/share/whatis
12:56:40 <ais523> it should be cacheable, although actually getting it to be cached would be a little harder
12:57:11 <b_jonas> nakilon: we don't currently have a log search, you'd have to download the logs and search them locally. fizzie was vaguely planning to set up a log search.
12:57:13 <arseniiv> yeah, I meant cacheable by a poor browser :)
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12:57:53 <ais523> I guess the part that's unlikely to change should be on a separate page and loaded by XHR or JSONP or whatever, so that we can change it without invalidating the cache
12:58:23 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that sounds reasonable then, just perhaps make a landing page with human-readable description of what you're doing that doesn't load that
12:58:39 <b_jonas> so it only loads the dictionary if the viewer actually wants to use it
12:58:52 <ais523> I could even load it lazily, I guess
12:59:01 <ais523> wait until there's an attempt to compress or decompress a string
12:59:01 <b_jonas> I mean at least if the user wants to evaluate something
12:59:08 <b_jonas> not necessarily that lazily
12:59:11 <b_jonas> though that's certainly possible
13:00:05 <ais523> I've been pondering finding some way to split the dictionary up into, say, 65536 separate files, so that we only load the parts of the dictionary that are actually needed
13:00:21 <ais523> but that means that each individual part would compress less well
13:00:38 <b_jonas> "loaded by XHR or JSONP" => that might be overcomplicating it, unless you really want to make it lazy. it could just be a javascript or web assembly or an uncompressed image file that the page loads normally, and then access the blob in it from the interpreter javascript
13:00:58 <b_jonas> through the canvas API if it's an image
13:01:24 <b_jonas> "65536 separate files" => um, is your compression algorithm such that that actually works?
13:01:31 <ais523> the canvas API doesn't exist nowadays, I thought? so that you couldn't fingerprint a browser by measuring how its rendering works
13:01:57 <b_jonas> also that sounds too many chunks for a 20 MB file that you're sending through network
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13:02:30 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know, I think the canvas API still exists, but if not, there's probably a modern replacement like webGL or whatever
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13:03:07 <ais523> why does my IRC client keep segfaulting
13:03:17 <ais523> maybe 65536 is too many, and it should be 1024 or 2048 or so
13:03:46 <b_jonas> no, still too many, that would make the individual chunks only 10K
13:03:52 <b_jonas> I'd make them at least 100K sized
13:03:56 <ais523> well, you'd need to access multiple chunks, most likely
13:04:10 <b_jonas> with 10K there'd be significant protocol overhead
13:04:15 <ais523> I've been looking at various compression algorithms (including trying to invent my own)
13:04:35 <b_jonas> but if canvas doesn't work, then just a javascript or web assembly file containing a blob (or multiple smaller blobs)
13:04:45 <ais523> prezip followed by one of the usual general-purpose compressors (gzip, bzip2, xz, etc.) seems to be the best algorithm
13:04:51 <ais523> probably gzip because web browsers have that already
13:04:52 <b_jonas> or you can make it XHR and cache it to local storage
13:05:04 <ais523> and prezip's compression ratio is hardly hurt by cutting the file and compressing the two bits separately
13:05:16 <b_jonas> ais523: can you decompress xz client-side in the browser?
13:05:36 <ais523> well there are couple of megabytes of webassembly in here too, so probably
13:05:50 <ais523> but relying on browers' built in gunzips would be easier
13:05:55 <b_jonas> well yes, it's Turing-complete, but like efficiently
13:06:20 <ais523> this is an esolang, efficiency is just a bonus :-D
13:06:34 <ais523> I've mostly been aiming for good asymptotic complexity but ignoring the constant factors
13:06:49 <ais523> and decompressing a specific, fixed dictionary is O(1) so it doesn't matter
13:07:04 <b_jonas> if it's for good asymptotic complexity then your 20 MB dictionary is too small :-)
13:07:20 <ais523> this is the largest dictionary I could find :-)
13:07:34 <ais523> it is 9.4 MB uncompressed
13:07:51 <b_jonas> and you want to compress it to 20 MB? brilliant
13:08:09 <ais523> sorry, 94 MB uncompressed
13:08:27 <ais523> these numbers get so big that it's hard to count the digits in them
13:09:27 <ais523> thanks for the advice, I'll think about this some more
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13:40:03 <esolangs> [[Primes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84342 * Meloons * (+15387) Added Page
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14:24:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84343&oldid=84298 * Toxinite * (+12) Added Qoibl
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14:48:12 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84344&oldid=84333 * Toxinite * (+184)
15:04:59 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84345&oldid=84344 * Toxinite * (+66)
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15:43:53 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84346&oldid=84345 * Toxinite * (+347)
15:50:47 <esolangs> [[User:Toxinite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84347 * Toxinite * (+56) Created page with "I am a person who likes esolangs ==Esolangs== *[[Qoibl]]"
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15:53:15 <esolangs> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84348&oldid=76238 * Gilbert189 * (+64) /* Direction pointer */ (Lists exists)
16:03:20 <Corbin> I think I've snapped. I propose an abomination: https://bpa.st/WVZQ Can any category theorists confirm that I'm on a decent track?
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17:23:48 <river> UTF-8 in brainfuck?
17:25:12 <myname> make . print out bytes instead if chars, done
17:25:44 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84349&oldid=84293 * Zero player rodent * (-733)
17:26:41 <keegan> isn't that how most BF impls work anyway?
17:26:43 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84350&oldid=84349 * Zero player rodent * (+7)
17:27:24 <myname> it's harder to make bf not support utf8
17:27:30 <keegan> brainfuck isn't limited to text data
17:27:53 <keegan> the only issue i'm aware of with processing arbitrary binary data is that you can't distinguish a null byte from EOF
17:28:18 <keegan> but that presents no additional issues for UTF-8 compared to ASCII
17:28:40 <keegan> because in both codes the null byte is only used to represent the null character and never for anything else
17:29:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Zero player rodent * uploaded "[[File:Among us.png]]": Logo for the Among Us programming language
17:31:59 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84352&oldid=84350 * Zero player rodent * (+77)
17:32:07 <keegan> you still might want to implement some UTF-8-related algorithms in brainfuck like finding codepoint boundaries or whatever
17:32:13 <keegan> but that shouldn't be particularly challenging
17:35:31 <zzo38> UTF-8 is a superset of ASCII, so if your program is using only ASCII then it will work on a terminal emulator with any ASCII superset, including UTF-8. The brainfuck program can easily output any data, whether ASCII, UTF-8, binary, or ANSI escapes. I think there are some extensions for doing other functions than only standard I/O if wanted too (which is not specific to brainfuck but to anything that is only standard I/O)
17:35:59 <zzo38> Also the representation of EOF in brainfuck depends on the implementation I think; some use 0, some use 255, some leave it unchanged, I don't know if some terminate on EOF
17:36:35 <zzo38> Although, if you need to input UTF-8 with nulls you can use the overlong null character encoding, I suppose
17:37:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Zero player rodent * uploaded "[[File:Amongus.png]]": Among Us programming language logo
17:37:45 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84354&oldid=84352 * Zero player rodent * (-1)
17:38:53 <river> im curious about the following concept?
17:39:04 <river> consider some kind of programming language that runs in one node
17:39:08 <river> and has the ability to talk to other nodes
17:39:11 <river> but is not turing complete
17:39:15 <keegan> what would be a good unambiguous way to handle EOF in brainfuck? add another command to ask if EOF has been reached?
17:39:20 <river> it is not turing complete with 2 or 3 or 4 nodes
17:39:23 <river> but it is turing complete with 5 nodes
17:39:33 <river> (5 chosen arbitarily for this example)
17:39:37 <keegan> "leave unchanged" works too but only if the cells are allowed to contain values outside [0..255]
17:40:05 <keegan> or -1 on EOF would work if your cells can go negative
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17:57:18 <myname> river: well, you can easily do something like splitting bf programs so that each cell runs its own program, i guess
17:57:45 <myname> and iirc bf with 3 (or 2?) unlimited cells is TC, but it is not with one
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18:18:05 <river> I hould really play TIS-100
18:19:22 <b_jonas> 5 might also happen to be the magic numbers where The Waterfall Model becomes TC, though it's quite likely that we'll never know the exact number
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18:29:41 <lambdabot> ENVA 111820Z 12003KT 090V180 9999 SCT014 BKN024 OVC040 16/13 Q1001 TEMPO SHRA SCT008 BKN014 RMK WIND 670FT 08005KT
18:30:27 <oerjan> hm i don't know if any of that means rain.
18:31:08 <lambdabot> KOAK 111753Z 22005KT 10SM FEW010 SCT200 16/09 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP197 T01610089 10161 20100 58003
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18:39:51 <myname> river: everybody should play every zach-like!
18:45:00 <river> i played lots of magnum opus, that was great
19:18:17 <fizzie> oerjan: TEMPO SHRA means a little bit of showers, I think.
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20:01:58 <keegan> what is The Waterfall Model?
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20:31:34 <esolangs> <spruit11> some clever device for software salesmen to make lots of green paper
20:42:40 <fizzie> It's that, too, but I rather think here it was a reference to https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model
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20:47:37 <b_jonas> keegan: https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model
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20:50:00 <keegan> oh, that's pretty neat
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21:09:25 <esolangs> [[Primes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84355&oldid=84342 * Meloons * (+107) Added GitHub Reference
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22:10:01 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84356&oldid=84354 * Zero player rodent * (+711)
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22:17:46 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84357&oldid=84325 * Zero player rodent * (+538)
22:19:27 <arseniiv> accidentally won FEZ with 32 cubes or something. They say it has a better ending when you come with all 64 cubes
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22:21:38 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84358&oldid=82876 * Zzo38 * (+410)
22:22:32 <arseniiv> I was a bit confused when doors expecting 32 cubes opened for me when I had less. But in reality anti-cubes count to the overall number of cubes and that’s even displayed when the gate opens, flashing briefly squares of two different colors, each square for each cube you have. I didn’t notice that at first
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23:15:58 <b_jonas> fungot, was the safety pin of the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch one of the True Nails with which Our Lord and Savior was crucified, and if so, through which of his body parts was it hammered?
23:15:59 <fungot> b_jonas: it's not functional and it's barely turing complete with an ugly memory model for a multiplexer and an encoder/ decoder to/ from
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23:51:51 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84359&oldid=84341 * ResU * (+38)
00:06:18 <esolangs> [[A returns a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84360&oldid=84300 * Jetison333 * (+0) /* Code examples */
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01:16:11 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Corbin: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic says "Blackbird" <-- after a little wikiwalk inspired by wikipedia's featured picture, turns out those are not actually corvids
01:18:43 <oerjan> (neither the european nor american version)
01:20:11 <oerjan> *old world nor new world
01:23:34 <Corbin> oerjan: Zoology is wack, huh? And bluejays are corvids despite looking like passerines. TIL, thanks.
01:27:46 <keegan> corvids are a subset of passerines, aren't they?
01:28:02 <keegan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae "Order: Passeriformes"
01:29:20 <keegan> we don't have blue jays here but we have scrub jays and Steller's jays
01:29:23 <keegan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steller's_jay
01:29:39 <keegan> very striking appearance
01:29:58 <b_jonas> oh heck, so you need to know both ornithology and bird sociology to tell whether there's a combinatorial bird that's also a corvid
01:30:32 <b_jonas> or more likely, solve some kind of puzzle where the forest's keeper tells you about rules that somehow involve corvids and bird application, Smullyan style
01:31:59 <b_jonas> "After observing this forest for twenty years, I have discovered three interesting rules. (1) For every corvid A, there is a bird B such that BA is not a corvid. [...]
01:33:22 <b_jonas> `I have pondered your observations all night, and have discovered a striking fact. None of the birds in this forest are corvids.' [...] `Curious. I've been observing this forest for 20 years and never realized that.'"
01:33:24 <HackEso> I? No such file or directory
01:33:51 <b_jonas> (The actual punchline in the book that none of the birds ever sing in the forest is much better than the one with corvids, I admit.)
01:37:54 <Corbin> keegan: Oh, interesting, TIL again. I thought "passerine" was just how zoologists say "songbird". The most common corvids here are crows, and they don't exactly ♩ sing ♪
01:38:02 <b_jonas> or perhaps it would be something like "From these three rules, detective Craig could derive the following properities. 1. All bluebirds are corvids. 2. None of the kestrels in this forest are corvids. Can you also prove those properties?"
01:39:34 <b_jonas> I think the most common songbirds here are common blackbirds
01:40:01 <b_jonas> but maybe they're just the most obviously recognizable, with their yellow beak but otherwise black body, while some of the other corvids are all black and hard to distinguish from each other
01:40:31 <b_jonas> crows might be more common
01:43:26 <keegan> crows are very common here
01:43:32 <keegan> almost as common as pigeons
01:56:29 <b_jonas> it's sparrows that are common here, the little greedy guys
01:56:32 <oerjan> crows are more common than pigeons here
01:57:08 <oerjan> although they compete with seagulls, depending on time of year
01:57:20 <b_jonas> I think pigeons are more common than crows, though there also seem to be less pigeons than there used to be. maybe the generation of old city folks who fed pigeons have aged out?
01:57:56 <oerjan> there are probably more pigeons in the city center (or at least used to be)
01:59:13 <b_jonas> perhaps. there are pigeons right on our roof, and so are there on the roof over my parent's home, but yes, probably more common in the city center
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02:05:20 <keegan> i think that deliberately given food is probably not a huge fraction of their diet but that a lot of it is trash that will be more widely available in the city center
02:05:43 <keegan> we also have seagulls (being by the sea and all)
02:05:46 <keegan> and they love trash too
02:05:57 <keegan> they like to hang out at the parking lot of a burger place i go to
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05:59:48 <shachaf> int-e: So I was thinking about how to actually to meet-in-the-middle attacks with the lambda algorithm and it's not clear to me how to do it.
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06:07:50 <int-e> shachaf: I don't know. It /says/ it's a meet in the middle attack but it actually computes a collision between two distinct hash-like functions, somehow relying on the second half of the process to be invertible. I imagine you have a double DES, E_k1(E_k2(X)) = Y for 128 bit known plaintext X and ciphertext Y, and you rewrite that as D_k1(Y) = E_k2(X) and then treat k1 and k2 as parameters
06:08:13 <int-e> and then... do something with that
06:08:37 <int-e> to get an ~2^64 operations attack. Or 2^56 with some extra care.
06:09:07 <shachaf> There are lots of collisions if you just look for any pair of keys that collide in the middle for a single plaintetxt-ciphertext pair.
06:09:51 <shachaf> So you probably want two pairs, and then maybe to encrypt/decrypt both texts, so f,g : 2^56 -> 2^128 or something.
06:10:16 <int-e> shachaf: I wrote "128 bits" for a reason
06:10:41 <shachaf> Right, I'm not disagreeing with you, just writing things out.
06:10:54 <int-e> you can do some hashing on the 128 bit values to get f,g : 2^128 -> 2^128
06:11:13 <int-e> but it feels weird... I'm not sure whether it works
06:11:31 <int-e> I don't know what I want.
06:11:36 <shachaf> It seems odd because if you construct h out of f and g, you're not just exploring a huge space with lots of collisions.
06:11:58 <shachaf> You want to explore approximately the entire domain of h, or something?
06:12:14 <int-e> I have not really worked out that meet-in-the-middle attack part of the paper. I pointed it out because it actually *does* is find a collision between two distinct functions.
06:12:53 <int-e> And for that purpose, it does work.
06:13:33 <int-e> So I mostly ignored the meet-in-the-middle angle. I can't say whether it works, but it does strike me as a bit odd.
06:16:47 <int-e> For example, the problem with "you can do some hashing on the 128 bit values" is that the effective codomain is still just of size 2^56
06:17:56 <int-e> shachaf: I've been answering you wrong, I think. What I should have written is that I think that's a good question, that I haven't worked it out and that I also have some doubts about whether this works, but I have not read the text carefully enough to figure it out for sure.
06:18:18 <int-e> There was no need to get defensive or aggressive about it.
06:18:23 <shachaf> Sure, I was just vaguely thinking about it out loud or something at this point.
06:18:56 <shachaf> I certainly didn't meet to accuse you of saying something wrong, I thought it was interesting when you said it and I didn't really think about it until today.
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06:29:02 <SiFuh3> ⧸!⧹ ΤΗIЅ ⲤНΑⲚNEL ᎻAS MОVEᎠ ΤO IRC.ᏞIᗷΕRA.CᎻΑΤ #HΑМᎡΑᗪІО ᜵ⵑ⧵
06:29:03 <SiFuh3> ᜵!＼ ΤHE ЈΕWᏚ HΑVΕ ΤAⲔЕN ⲞVEᎡ ᖴREЕΝODΕ‚ СዘATᏚ HAVЕ MOⅤED TΟ IRⅭ․LІBЕᎡΑ.CHАΤ /﹗＼
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06:30:21 <myname> i don't get why those bots even spam in libera about switching to libera
06:33:26 <int-e> shachaf: looking more closely, it searches for collisions for a single block, then validates them on a second block, and the main benefits are better tradeoff of memory for performance and better parallelization, both thanks to the distinguished points method.
06:37:20 <int-e> shachaf: it's worse noting that the basic work factor in (9) is 2^84 = 2^28 * 2^56, scaling down by sqrt(w) for a table of size w, so it becomes 2^56 when we get a table entry per key
06:38:20 <int-e> in any case, there's quite a lot going on there on top of the collision search
06:40:13 <int-e> a big part is randomizing the auxiliary functions that you have collide so that you get /different/ collisions to work with, each with a chance of being the key you're looking for
06:55:31 <int-e> Oh what fun... https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/04/google_chip_flaws/
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07:28:13 <zzo38> And, why are some of the letters mixed up on thise spam messages?
07:28:56 <shachaf> Yes, I looked at it and it looked tricky.
07:29:16 <int-e> zzo38: to thwart spam filter, obviously
07:29:43 <int-e> worse noting, I really make th wortht typos
07:30:32 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so, but a spam filter could be made to look for such mixed up letters instead. (A long time ago I had seen spam messages with too many spaces at the end of the subject line, so I used that as a filter criteria; sometimes it is base64 encoded or whatever, so I used that asa filter criteria; etc)
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08:14:49 <fizzie> Re why spam about it here, I don't know how plausible it is, but it *could* be an attempt to get bridge bots get killed on the other side.
08:17:55 <int-e> seems too elaborate
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08:38:12 <nakilon> 09:30:21 <myname> i don't get why those bots even spam in libera about switching to libera
08:38:41 <nakilon> because the whole point was just to call people jews, koreans, etc., not switching the network for any profit
08:38:52 <nakilon> people will start realising it maybe in few years
08:39:03 <nakilon> some things are too hard to understand for majority
08:39:59 <nakilon> the only "reason" switching from freenode was these same spambots who were telling you to do it and you just followed their orders, lol
08:45:55 <nakilon> I imagine the TPUs can have miscalculations happen every second and no one will spot it behind the "NN magick"
08:46:57 <nakilon> the whole point of "computers being reliable" has devaluated thanks to NN hype marketing
08:48:10 <nakilon> today people with no math/engineering skills design, approve and even implement most of the software
08:49:19 <myname> i switched way before the spambots started
08:52:29 <myname> i suspect those bots to be somehow paid by freenode to fud on libera
08:53:52 <nakilon> spambots started before, they just looked different, were not automated
08:54:14 <int-e> it can easily be just a third party who revels in drama... the spam resembles the supernets spam so much
08:54:43 <int-e> And there's really no need to accuse Andrew+crew of things that can't be proven
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08:55:42 <nakilon> people didn't need anything to be proven to switch from freenode though
08:56:38 <nakilon> I was asking like two times what are the evidence that something bad is happening and all you had was a wikipedia link to some website where guy is called a prince and it's somehow bad or something
08:57:01 <myname> it was a hostile takeover, that's reason enough
08:57:22 <nakilon> yeah, people say these two words "hostile takeover" with no sense put in it
08:57:31 <myname> it doesn't even matter if there were legal threats or not, it doesn't matter what the intentions from whoever are
08:58:13 <myname> okay, even if it was not a hostile takeover, i still follow the staff, not the name of the network
08:58:31 <int-e> Andrew's first blog post by itself would've convinced me to leave.
08:58:35 <myname> if the staff saw a reason to leave, so do i
08:59:17 <nakilon> so stuff are in fact your masters? maybe that's how the "takeover" looks like? they move you from one place to another as they wish
08:59:46 <int-e> "masters"? They're good hosts.
08:59:55 <myname> what is your reason to choose a network if not the people who operate it?
08:59:58 <nakilon> how isn't Andrew a good host?
09:00:47 <myname> the operators are what define the network, not the name of it
09:00:50 <int-e> Going with the restaurant analogy, he's been serving burned food and yelling at the customers from day one.
09:01:15 <nakilon> I have no idea who operates networks and this neither has or have to have any nifluence on my choice
09:01:34 <nakilon> my socket connection and ability to talk and run bots works fine on any network
09:02:30 <nakilon> how is it bad to be independent and not a pawn being moved elsewhere because of someon else's personal dramas lol
09:03:15 <int-e> nakilon: so you're largely unaffected by the move and complaining about it because you think that just because you don't care about Andrew's antics, nobody else should care either?
09:03:19 <nakilon> int-e I didn't have any burned food
09:03:29 <myname> i'm not a pawn being moved. i know staffers personally and i trust them. i have yet to find any positive fact about andrew
09:04:43 <nakilon> neither of you did have a burned food
09:04:50 <nakilon> that was just their personal drama
09:05:05 <nakilon> some internal job communication problems
09:05:07 <int-e> What? I saw #haskell being taken over.
09:06:35 <nakilon> what do you mean by "#haskell taking over"? something like with gentoo? the bug in a script with the following apologizing from Andrew's side and purposeful hiding this by gentoo's admins to manipulate their pawns who are happy to be like that?
09:08:52 <FireFly> I think it's less "taken over by a prince and that's bad" and more "taken over by a businessman running it as some sort of startup, apparently with several reports of harassment against them, opering up known abusers", at least from my POV
09:08:56 <myname> so either he straight up lies or has no clue on how to run a network in a robust way. great start so far. i also like how you always point out that others believe everything and at the same time are totally fine with him claiming it was an accident that should never ever happen outside of test servers or channels
09:09:06 <nakilon> or another picture I see here is like starting shitting on the walls. drawing words "ACAB" with a shit, until cops come to stop you and you say "see?! they are arresting me -- that's why I was right shitting on the walls and no one will check the chronology, pawns"
09:09:25 <FireFly> but either way, it doesn't really matter particularly, people are presumably free to choose where they want their communities *shrug*
09:10:48 <nakilon> "lies or has no clue on how to run a network in a robust way" -- what would you expect when half of staff have left? maybe it was even one of their sabotage scripts, saying "hey dude, run this"
09:11:32 <myname> sure, i also always run unchecked code from people that just left me
09:12:12 <myname> if "half" of staff left, i expect him to either not run untested scripts or just test them locally
09:12:24 <nakilon> maybe that sctipr author left on the next day
09:12:43 <myname> i cannot trust him maintaining a reliable network either way
09:12:52 <nakilon> all you know is that it was ran and there were apologizings but you don't mentions the latter because that's not the goal of drama
09:13:42 <int-e> https://nitter.fdn.fr/kurtseifried/status/1398712468394811395#m
09:13:51 <myname> no, the apology doesn't matter. if he doesn't know what it does, he should never have run it in the first place. if he did know it, the apology is useless
09:13:52 <FireFly> I don't think the problem is the script or apologise per se, moreso than the sudden changes in what has previously been perfectly fine for at least two decades on freenode..
09:14:19 <FireFly> the whole thing like "can't mention another network in topics because that's advertisement" is... pretty foreign
09:14:33 <nakilon> yep, people self inflicted the network damage
09:15:02 <myname> what, don't you love censorship in your free network?
09:15:16 <nakilon> "he should never have run it in the first place" -- he was the one who tried to fix things unlike others
09:15:30 <myname> what things? what was wrong?
09:16:27 <nakilon> how spamming the libera network name in topic better than spamming hamradio channel name?
09:17:22 <FireFly> I think "this community has moved to X" is uh, not exactly spamming
09:17:35 <nakilon> so you call stopping you from shitting the walls a censorship?
09:17:46 <FireFly> just, like, a friendly PSA to the community in question, if they've decided to move.. be it to libera, or discord, or matrix or whatever
09:18:10 <myname> okay, at first you didn't know what bots were and now you don't know what spamming is. if channel owners want to include something in their topic, it's their choice. unless it violates law, a network must not forbid me to put whatever i want in there
09:19:01 <myname> if i spray something on the inside of my wall and get arrested for it, i indeed do call it censorship
09:19:34 <myname> i can do whatever i want in my house
09:19:43 <nakilon> the network mentions in topic was not a choice -- it was a result of a spam and person-based hate flame effect on channels owners
09:20:26 <myname> ah, all ops of the hundreds of channels were bad because they decided to inform their respective community about a change
09:20:56 <nakilon> it wasn't only on your inside walls, the whole apartment was smelling with this
09:21:09 <nakilon> people were smelling shit in all the channels
09:21:28 <myname> yeah, because each house owner decided to paint something on their walls
09:21:56 <myname> that is nothing that should ever be changed by a network owner
09:23:33 <nakilon> that's exactly what landlords should do -- stop the hype of shitting the walls no matter if they are inside or outside because the whole building started smelling
09:23:53 <myname> you can probably argue whether or not the choice to switch networks was reasonable. but _if_ i decide to move a community as an op, i should be allowed to put that information in a topic.
09:24:16 <myname> nakilon: i highly doubt landlords can do anything to you if you spray the inside of your house
09:24:18 <nakilon> btw, it's not even the correct analogy -- channels are not personal flats but a common areas like cafes or cinemas
09:24:25 <myname> at least where i live, they cannot do shit about it
09:24:54 <myname> it's a fundamental right that i can do whatever i want in my house
09:25:03 <nakilon> so it was a shopping center and cafe owners started serving shit
09:25:41 <esolangs> <LKoen> well you can't farm drugs in your house
09:25:44 <myname> if other people don't get affected by it, sure thing
09:26:06 <myname> yeah, i did mention earlier that you cannot break the law
09:26:44 <myname> the whole "stinking" argument is nonsens. if i spray my wall, you will not be able to smell that on the outside after like a few days max
09:26:49 <nakilon> everyone was affected; people hated this shit so much that agreed to switch just in hope that they'll stop smell what cafe owners did
09:27:44 <nakilon> channel topics are the outer side of your door anyway even if ti's a personal flat
09:27:53 <nakilon> people are passing by every day
09:28:13 <nakilon> and there are rules on what you can do with your door for sure -- you can't shit it
09:28:20 <myname> how are channel topics the outer side?
09:29:45 <nakilon> they are in /list and /chanserv info and on the websites that track the channel topics
09:29:56 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84361&oldid=84322 * Dominicentek * (-41)
09:30:13 <nakilon> also it's the same as your balcony and there are rules too about what you can place on your balcony
09:30:19 <myname> you know why that is? so people can see relevant information. like changes in the community and stuff
09:30:39 <nakilon> yeah nazism was revelant change in 30s
09:30:55 <myname> sure, you can go that route, but that is a reason against freenode. i want to be in a network where i can put whatever legal stuff i want to in topics
09:31:01 <nakilon> so Italy could learn it too
09:31:06 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
09:31:40 <myname> that comparison is bullshit
09:31:53 <myname> in most places, it's highly illegal to do that
09:32:05 <nakilon> ahah, you won't be able to put the other network name all over the place if that would be caused by that some guy from these team is a prince of some Evil Axis country or something
09:32:11 <myname> it is however not illegal to name a website that is totally legal
09:33:00 <nakilon> int-e there should be some law ahout probability that mentioning the logic, ANd and OR would be too
09:33:18 <nakilon> that's called a learning on mistakes
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09:33:57 <nakilon> the thing is that you again ignore the chronology
09:34:21 <myname> also, you are comparing a legit network by trusted people with some grey area, which is still bullshit
09:34:35 <nakilon> the freenode drama started with Andrew's nationality in the first place
09:34:50 <myname> what? i don't even know andrew's nationality
09:34:58 <int-e> nakilon: You really don't get to question other people's personal decisions. We have reasons, you think they're invalid reasons, we get it. Move on, let it rest.
09:35:30 <myname> how should i know? it was never mentioned by any of the staffers letters afair
09:35:50 <nakilon> his surname is such a secret
09:36:00 <nakilon> this pretending is too blatant
09:36:27 <myname> okay, now i pretend because i say i don't care about the nationality of somebody?
09:36:57 <myname> maybe i read his surname, not sure, i never bothered to remember. i wouldn't even know his first name if you didn't mention it
09:38:03 <myname> okay, so he is called lee. so what?
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10:23:11 <esolangs> [[Column]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84362 * Dominicentek * (+2637) Created page with "Column is an esoretic programming language developed by Dominicentek. It's code is executed column by column in a text file, rather than line by line like in a typical program..."
10:33:31 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84363&oldid=84210 * Dominicentek * (+13)
10:34:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84364&oldid=84343 * Dominicentek * (+13) /* C */
12:00:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * .yazic * New user account
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13:45:36 <b_jonas> "<int-e> worse noting, I really make th wortht typos" => you managed to type "thwart" correctly
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13:55:09 <b_jonas> ok, let's do it right this time, rather than just return from a family break to see the drama played out
13:56:31 <b_jonas> dear esolangs community, if this channel or the network collapses somehow, even twelve years from now, we will meet on the wiki and on the oftc IRC server channel #esolangs , using whichever works as a lifeboat to decide where to go.
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15:27:40 <Corbin> That one scene from "Shawshank Redemption" where he's trying to remember how to spell "Zihuatanejo" so he can meet up with his friend~
15:28:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Plasmath * New user account
15:35:43 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/8PFnh0P.png -- how do I decide that the 1st of 3 peaks is what I need?
15:35:59 <nakilon> the middle peak can be absent
15:36:53 <nakilon> the question of image binarizing
15:42:10 <river> have you thought of using a neural network to detect the (rotated) letters?
15:43:04 <nakilon> no, I'm doing better than NN can do
15:44:36 <nakilon> my captcha solver will have no NN cancer
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15:48:22 <river> why do you say these things?
15:49:00 <river> how are letters recognized without?
15:49:01 <myname> yeah, the most advanced technology we have to date do deal with image recognition is totally useless for image recognition
15:49:22 <nakilon> years of observations, math knowledge and marketing understanding
15:49:34 <myname> undistorted letters should be pretty easy, though
15:50:14 <nakilon> "how are letters recognized without?" -- with machine learning
15:50:45 <river> do you have a link that explains how to do this machine learning?
15:50:47 <myname> "NN is useless, just use machine learning"===
15:51:07 <myname> machine learning is in most instances done through NN
15:51:09 <Corbin> myname: Careful not to imagine that society is cumulative and always makes forward progress. Sometimes useless technologies are invented.
15:51:09 <nakilon> river what do you mean by "this machine learning"?
15:51:13 <river> i'v always been curious about making a program that can read text from an image, but never managed it
15:51:25 <nakilon> myname https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning
15:51:26 <myname> Corbin: i do know that
15:52:18 <myname> nakilon: i am well aware. how does that disproof my statement?
15:52:40 <nakilon> your statement isn't proved in the first place
15:53:05 <Corbin> myname: Neural nets are generally machine-learning, yes, but not all machine-learning is done through neural nets.
15:53:20 <myname> Corbin: i never stated that
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15:53:35 <Corbin> I implemented some example code from https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.01446 the other day, and the learning is done through black-box optimization, not using any gradients or neurons.
15:53:36 <myname> it's just convinient to use for most cases
15:53:39 <river> nakilon, how to read text from an image
15:54:02 <nakilon> river I already have 10 lines long prototype that recognizes text better than a tool made by 50 people using several multimillion costing NN technologies
15:54:05 <Corbin> Maybe it's convenient with a toolkit, but NNs to me are expensive, slow, and temperamental.
15:54:27 <river> im not the one arguing with you
15:54:30 <nakilon> and the prototype isn't even aware of language dictionaries
15:54:31 <river> the chat is very busy
15:54:34 <myname> NN is so big that you are probably easier off just using whatever NN framework you have available in your language of choice than writing a machine learning algorithm from scratch
15:54:36 <nakilon> so once I add them it will do even better
15:54:40 <river> hopefully you are not mixing my messags up with anyone elses
15:55:11 <nakilon> river I understand, it's hard to talk meaningful when every 2nd line is a purposeful flame even if not yours
15:55:21 <river> yes it is quite frustrating
15:58:02 <myname> having a prototype that recognizes text better than a tool made by 50 people is a bold claim. unless the other tool isn't specifically designed to recognize text, i highly doubt you can give a reasonable metric for that
16:01:43 <nakilon> their tool was made specifically for text recognition, my tool is just a wrapped on another thing of mine that isn't even about text
16:01:57 <nakilon> it was just a library usage example
16:03:34 <myname> in that case, better publish a paper or even better sell that product
16:04:41 <Corbin> myname: Aha! Okay, this is an understandable perspective. I'm usually working in a language I built, so I have to pay the cost of every abstraction. NNs would take a lot of work.
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16:05:53 <myname> that's fine. but if you just want to recognize something and are using python (and aren't doing it for research purposes), there is not much benefit writing a specialized solution over taking one of the larger existing frameworks
16:10:51 <nakilon> I make this captcha solver for just a personal usage script and maybe will reuse somewhere else in future
16:11:30 <nakilon> but I checked how much it costs to solve your captcha with a service where a thousand of people are sitting and and solving them
16:12:10 <nakilon> it's ~$1.5 per 1000 captchas but they are doing it in 30 seconds in average while my one is gonna work within 5 sec
16:13:14 <myname> "yeah, i have this technology written in like 10 lines of codes that could generate me easy passive income, but i will only use it for personal usage, because who needs free money anyways"
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16:49:20 <b_jonas> not totally useless, alas, but it's overmarketed and somewhat overused
16:52:03 <b_jonas> a lot of products have some kind of useless modern machine learning part that is technically in it but not really needed or used, just so they can market it as a product that uses machine learning, because that's fashionable. (blockchain is similar, but even worse; in most products advertised with it it's absolutely useless, as opposed to just mostly useless)
16:52:37 <b_jonas> it used to be JIT and multithreaded, then GPU programming, but the marketing fashions are changing
16:54:38 <myname> b_jonas: did you know about that first idea about an electronic vaccination passport in germany?
16:57:01 <b_jonas> *sigh* no, I haven't been following that political nonsense and I'm not too interested in it
17:00:35 <nakilon> I guess I'll just take the peak within the section that ends when it's the first fall to 20% of the peak
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17:38:33 <zzo38> Is it possible to define a escape sequence that cancels any further responses from the terminal emulator for previously accepted escape sequences (but does not cancel further ones)?
17:41:28 <b_jonas> but where does Zach propose to get all the energy for the electrolysis? (re "https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/titan")
17:42:02 <pikhq> well it's a nuclear sub, so presumably nuclear power
17:42:15 <pikhq> wasteful? yes. possible? also yes
17:44:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: wouldn't work too well, because there's a race condition: you wouldn't know when the terminal actually reacted to the escape sequence, and in fact the terminal will likely respond to its input in sequence, so it will react to previous escape sequences before it even reads your recent one. what you can do is to send some escape sequence to which the terminal does react by a response that you can
17:45:05 <b_jonas> recognize (you can make that from cursor reads unless the terminal is like 1x1 character in size), then read from the terminal and skip everything until you see that reply
17:47:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's also an ioctl or some such system call api to flush the input queue of the terminal, but that only really works for a local linux console on /dev/ttyN , for anything else there's a race condition because the terminal logic that gives you responses is in an asyncroniously running process or even on another host
17:48:02 <zzo38> I know that it won't work for remote terminals; it is for local terminals that I ask about
17:48:11 <b_jonas> for the local terminal, this is useful and getty or its equivalents do us it, so that the new login doesn't get input left there by a previous login, possibly from a malicious user. for a remote terminal like ssh, you usually start a new terminal connection instead; for serial it's a bit more complicated
17:48:16 <zzo38> (specifically, local pseudoterminals)
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17:48:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: for local pseudoterminals, the terminal emulator process is still asynchroniously scheduled
17:49:12 <b_jonas> the latency is probably less than if you're talking through an internet connection on ssh, but qualitatively it's the same
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17:50:30 <b_jonas> on /dev/tty this can only work because the kernel can and does actually access the read queue of the terminal and flush it and does this in a way that synchronizes with its other terminal processing
17:51:11 <b_jonas> you can still flush a pty's queue the same way, but it doesn't really solve the race condition, you still need to wait for the terminal's response to some command you send after that and skip previous responses
17:51:28 <zzo38> For example, if you put such a escape sequence in the shell prompt string then any responses to other escape requests (e.g. cursor position, window title, etc) will not be seen by the shell. This can also include keyboard mode; if previous escape sequences set some mode, any keys will be transmitted using the default keyboard mode instead of the new one.
17:51:36 <b_jonas> unless you can just start a new virtual terminal, which you can actually often do and may be easier (but slower) than resetting an existing one
17:52:00 <zzo38> (It could reset other modes too)
17:53:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's two different problems. there is a sequence "\ec" that resets almost every setting (in some cases it keeps the palette, window size, fonts, window title and icon title, etc), but you still have to skip the input
17:53:50 <b_jonas> for which I recommend sending a sequence of absolute cursor moves and cursor position reads and wait for the matching response, but perhaps there's a better way
17:54:29 <b_jonas> you may need something more complicated than just "\ec", I'm not sure, but "\ec" is what does most of the work
17:55:24 <b_jonas> heck, it even resets the weird "\e12m" mode on linux console that, for some reason, systemd's built-in getty doesn't fix on this debian system.
17:55:51 <b_jonas> why doesn't systemd properly reset the terminal? I have no effing clue
17:58:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GreenThePear * New user account
17:58:06 <zzo38> There are many problems with systemd that I read about, and many people don't like it, you can use something else instead
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18:00:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: on this computer there are bigger problems with the local console logins than that: the VESA bios is broken and sometimes doesn't properly set the video mode when switching from X11 to the mode that linux graphics mode console uses
18:00:10 <b_jonas> so I don't particularly care about that bug for now
18:00:48 <b_jonas> I don't know how they messed that up, the bios and the built-in video card are on the same motherboard sold together
18:01:14 <b_jonas> it's not a separate extension video card (yet)
18:05:05 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84368&oldid=84225 * ResU * (+30)
18:07:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84369&oldid=84336 * GreenThePear * (+307)
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18:44:09 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84370&oldid=84367 * ResU * (+544) Added prime calculator (my own algorithm)
18:48:06 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84371&oldid=84370 * ResU * (+6)
18:49:43 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84372&oldid=84371 * ResU * (+6) /* Prime calculator */
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20:35:34 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84380&oldid=84379 * ResU * (+10) slightly modified the quine so it is a valid program
20:36:18 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84381&oldid=84378 * GreenThePear * (-26)
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20:52:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84388&oldid=84382 * Plasmath * (+240) Added my signature.
20:53:07 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84389&oldid=84387 * GreenThePear * (+7) /* Expressions */
20:54:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Plasmath * uploaded "[[File:Godencode Memory Samples.png]]"
20:58:23 <esolangs> [[User:TinyGuy32]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84391 * TinyGuy32 * (+829) Created page with "==NumberPankackes== ==Commands== 1X: pushes X to the stack (you must have a colon at the end of the command) 2 coppys the top of the stack and pushes it..."
21:00:36 <esolangs> [[User:TinyGuy32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84392&oldid=84391 * TinyGuy32 * (-829) Blanked the page
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21:17:26 <esolangs> [[User:TinyGuy32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84394&oldid=84392 * TinyGuy32 * (+829)
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23:01:09 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84395 * Plasmath * (+26343) Created the page.
23:06:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Godencode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84396 * Plasmath * (+1282) please help finish interpreter
23:06:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84397&oldid=84396 * Plasmath * (-46)
23:15:37 <esolangs> [[Primes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84398&oldid=84355 * Meloons * (+0) lowercase
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00:46:39 <esolangs> [[Coeus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84401&oldid=78485 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+150) Added a section Interpreters with a reference to my implementation and changed the category to Implemented.
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01:34:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84404&oldid=84385 * Plasmath * (+16) Added [[Godencode]].
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01:48:16 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84405&oldid=84400 * Plasmath * (+87) Added an infinite loop. First really simple program.
01:48:43 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84406&oldid=84405 * Plasmath * (+1) Forgot the code formatting.
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02:03:58 <zzo38> Why do they use YCoCg rather than YCgCo?
02:10:17 <zzo38> (It seem to me that YCgCo is making a better prediction based on the valid range due to the value of the previous channels)
02:11:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Plasmath]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84407 * Ais523 * (+1030) reply
02:14:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Plasmath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84408&oldid=84407 * Ais523 * (+269) what about linking to the language page?
02:41:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Plasmath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84409&oldid=84408 * Plasmath * (+124)
02:46:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Plasmath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84410&oldid=84409 * Plasmath * (+158)
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03:24:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: you mean like how you order the information in jpeg and such formats? how it would work better if you ordered the channels differently? I don't even know what order it has the channels in. I guess you'd have to test whether it yields a better compression, and of course that may depend on the progressive JPEG scheme. you would have to use an encoder that can take the YUV values directly rather
03:24:28 <b_jonas> than RGB though, and I'm not sure what encoder can do that -- I mean ffmpeg can but its jpeg encoder is also terrible and not configurable so it's not a fair test, maybe libjpeg can but I don't know how
03:25:24 <b_jonas> though the YUV space that JPEG uses isn't quite the same as YCoCg apparently
03:25:37 <b_jonas> I'm confused by so many different linear transformations of color spaces
03:30:57 <b_jonas> I guess you'll have to ask the HAM enthusiasts of esolangs
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04:36:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't mean JPEG, since I think JPEG doesn't take advantage of the order of the channels to make predictions and that stuff. But, it seems to me that the valid range of values for Cg can depend on Y, and the valid range of values for Co can depend on Cg and Y once they are known.
04:36:50 <zzo38> Actually I did make up a picture compression based on this, and it seems to work a bit better than PNG
04:37:27 <zzo38> (and, unlike PNG, does not require guessing things in order to improve the compression)
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05:11:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh yeah, it's Huffman compression after that linear transformation on blocks, you'
05:11:53 <b_jonas> re right that it can't take advantage of that kind of thing. I guess I was thinking of PNG, where the deflate step *can* take advantage of correlation between channels
05:14:31 <b_jonas> I should have known that, because I know how JPEG worked, but I didn't realize. oh well.
05:15:21 <b_jonas> but still, if you think something like flipping the order of chroma channels can help, which I doubt, then you might want to experiment with that on more modern image/video compression formats, ones where it could matter
05:15:39 <b_jonas> I doubt that just flipping two channels would help, but still
05:15:49 <b_jonas> I'm not all that good about image compression
05:16:45 <b_jonas> I had some ideas about them and thought about it enough to realize just how difficult the topic is
05:17:54 <zzo38> See the piccomp.c file (SHA-1 hash is c4e5438e358e174cde4b25ecd536d52f59beb702) in TeXnicard
05:19:51 <b_jonas> basically I tried to think of how to design a good image compression algorithm, and I didn't find a way to get the properties that I want, anything I try would either be bad at compression or would be impossible to implement efficiently, and I have also experimented with existing video compression libraries and they're just too good
05:20:03 <zzo38> What properties do you think that you want?
05:20:24 <b_jonas> it shouldn't stop me from thinking of course, but I haven't been able to think of a good enough design yet, so I want to think about it more before I can implement anything
05:23:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: basically the problem is that decoding something variable width like Huffman is hard in a way that takes advantage of the SIMD capabilities of a CPU (or the same of a GPU). you can parallelize decompression and compression by handling individual large chunk of course, and all the other parts, as in color space transforms and DFT or other linear transforms and PNG-like prediction from previous
05:23:12 <b_jonas> value and video compression's testing which neighboring block is the most similar or even estimating the motion delta more efficiently than trying every possible delta, those can be done in SIMD
05:23:40 <b_jonas> but for the variable bit size huffman-like compression in the end (it doesn't necessarily need to be huffman, could be arithmetic coding) you have to iterate through individual values in series
05:23:53 <zzo38> I think what PNG does compressing the filter types together with the pixel data is a bad idea; it would be better to be separate
05:24:44 <b_jonas> and if you want something that avoids that, better predicting how much to shift the input data or have a fixed width encoding, that is possible, but then you probably have to rearrange the output pixels in an unpredictable order which is even worse, or do some other intersting thing,
05:24:55 <b_jonas> and I think it's probably possible to avoid this trap, but I couldn't yet think of a good way,
05:25:15 <b_jonas> so I should read up if any existing algorithm does that and still manage to do not terrible compression
05:26:05 <b_jonas> and also think about how it could be done
05:26:36 <b_jonas> because that's what I'd like to see form an algorithm, at least for *decompression*, it could be slower for compression perhaps, though it's also worth to have other compression methods that are also fast to encode
05:29:56 <b_jonas> there is some balance between slower compression as a price for slightly smaller encoded form while keeping the same quality and decompression time, and a more important tradeoff of slower compression and decompression and much larger encoded size for better quality, and good image/video encodings already offer both tradeoffs as a somewhat tunable parameter
05:30:45 <b_jonas> though there is something odd here now that I think of it
06:15:50 <esolangs> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84411&oldid=84366 * Dominicentek * (-2) /* Truth Machine */
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08:30:38 <esolangs> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84412&oldid=84411 * Dominicentek * (+12) /* Truth Machine */
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09:31:30 <nakilon> this is function k7*x**7+k6*x**6+k5*x**5+k4*x**4+k3*x**3+k2*x**2+k1*x+k0 and this should be its derivative, right? k7*x**6+k6*x**5+k5*x**4+k4*x**3+k3*x**2+k2*x+k1
09:33:05 <nakilon> but the bottom line doesn't look like derivative of upper one https://i.imgur.com/Pljjzyq.png
09:33:24 <nakilon> it doesn't get above 0 in the middle
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09:34:10 <nakilon> k0..k7 = [86.37483858758613, -4.3258409149187855, 0.13119312931328275, -0.0022258811427750126, 2.156489053721058e-05, -1.1221319014114155e-07, 2.8163872939164175e-10, -2.530165279150212e-13]
09:36:11 <nakilon> oh no, forgot to multiply by 7, 6, ...
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10:05:11 <nakilon> b_jonas I've got another example https://i.imgur.com/BlsjZrI.png -- problem here is that they use several different captcha generators and this one doesn't rotate but skews the letters
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10:12:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: yeah, that can help with the captchas
10:12:38 <myname> uhm, the derivative of k7*x^7 isn't k7*x^6 but 7*k7^6
10:13:08 <myname> same issue with each other part of the sum except the last because x^1 will get a factor of 1
10:13:34 <myname> also, bit surprise, captchas are made to be hard to read
10:15:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ultlang * moved [[Delta Salein Ao]] to [[Delta Salein ]]: the actual name
10:15:52 <nakilon> this one is skewed too, not rotated https://i.imgur.com/dVMMdkT.png
10:16:22 <esolangs> [[Delta Salein ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84416&oldid=84414 * Ultlang * (+5)
10:17:30 <nakilon> gotta somehow differentiate them to switch the way of chosing the closest line dot -- using "min x1-x2" instead of "min hypot x1-x2, y1-y2"
10:18:46 <nakilon> or just try both ways until I see which one makes better results on the OCR stage
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10:35:25 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84417&oldid=84389 * GreenThePear * (+827) Revamped the commands, all [x] input will be used as an index + fixing some mistakes
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11:18:24 <b_jonas> myname: yes, and nakilon corrected himself about the derivatives a few lines later, and this time I wasn't hasty enough to reply before reading that
11:22:42 <esolangs> [[Column]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84418&oldid=84413 * Dominicentek * (+137)
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11:29:44 <esolangs> [[User:TinyGuy32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84420&oldid=84394 * TinyGuy32 * (-829) Blanked the page
11:30:08 <riv> is there a tool that lets me easily cut a picture from an image out/remove background
11:30:17 <riv> GIMPs 'intelligent scissors' aren't that great for it
11:30:48 <riv> I feel like with modern stuff.. it should be possible to just draw a rough outline and get a perfect cutout
11:34:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84421&oldid=84404 * TinyGuy32 * (+44)
11:39:10 <esolangs> [[NumberPankackes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84422&oldid=84419 * TinyGuy32 * (+2)
11:39:23 <b_jonas> riv: it really depends on the image, but try ones that require both a positive and negative sample, that is, points marked strictly inside and strictly outside the object, rather then a rough outline. try (1) GIMP's new foreground select tool, and (2) the GMIC QT gimp plugin's colorizer tools, which are intended to color black and white photos and black and white line art respectively (that's two
11:39:29 <b_jonas> separate tools) based on another image with sample points of color in the objects, but you can ask them for the masks of which colors go exactly where and use that to get a selection mask that you use for something other than selecting an object
11:39:47 <b_jonas> they aren't perfect, but I think they work better than GIMP intelligent scissors
11:40:19 <b_jonas> http://gmic.eu/ to download the G'MIC QT Gimp plugin on windows; install from distro on debian
11:40:49 <b_jonas> note that Gimp has a decent ABI so the same plugin compiled once can be reused for different minor versions of GIMP
11:41:56 <b_jonas> which means you can install G'MIC QT from debian and it will work for a newer version of Gimp that you install from source, as I learned
11:42:21 <b_jonas> that was back when Gimp 2 wasn't yet in debian and I really really wanted Gimp 2 so I installed from source
11:42:33 <b_jonas> now Gimp 2 is in debian stable, and I love that
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12:08:07 <nakilon> now the correctness is limited by how well I apply dilations to make skeletonization go well https://i.imgur.com/ckuQeDp.png
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12:09:11 <nakilon> riv there was online service
12:09:14 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, and that part is hard
12:09:42 <nakilon> this or maybe it's a clone https://www.remove.bg/ru
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12:14:22 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/Ux0aQTH.png
12:16:18 <nakilon> I actually could apply the whole process twice but pixels are rotting
12:16:43 <esolangs> <LKoen> are you trying to teach bot to cheat at captchas?
12:17:21 <nakilon> yeah, script that would send me new vacancies from local job search site
12:17:44 <esolangs> <LKoen> note that there was a fun trick at some point where captchas consisted in two words; the first word was meant to tell whether the user was human or not; the second word was much easier to decipher and actually came from scanned books
12:18:06 <esolangs> <LKoen> and in two months they had digitalized an entire library without optical recognition software
12:18:24 <nakilon> yeah I guess that was recaptcha
12:18:43 <nakilon> now they are teaching self-driving cars
12:21:49 <b_jonas> nakilon: and Google Maps to read house numbers from blurred photos, surely you noticed those captchas
12:22:40 <nakilon> blurred or just photos taken from the distance by self-driven cars to teach them navigate?
12:23:30 <esolangs> <LKoen> I don't remember house numbers
12:24:30 <b_jonas> nakilon: not deliberately blurred, just taken from a distance either by the same cars that Google Maps uses to make street view, or more likely by the airplane cameras that they used to make the incredibly high resolution "satellite view" from five different camera directions that isn't actually from satellites
12:25:02 <nakilon> didn't know about airplanes
12:25:14 <b_jonas> as in, satellite view _is_ from satellites in most areas of the map, but in those places it's also low resolution and only has one camera direction
12:25:39 <b_jonas> so in more populated places that most people view on the map, they used airplane cameras, which can give much higher quality
12:25:46 <nakilon> that would explain how they made all the trees and buildings 3d in there
12:25:51 <b_jonas> just because they're closer
12:26:33 <b_jonas> nakilon: well that's only part of it, part of the 3D buildings are modeled from their street view photos and from random location-tagged photos from the internet corellated by really clever software, the same way as we model 3d objects from 2d photos except they do it better
12:27:27 <b_jonas> and of course some of this is just speculation because they don't tell all the details about how they got every image, they only tell when that was a requirement to buy a license of pictures that other people made not specifically for them
12:40:34 <esolangs> [[NumberPankackes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84423&oldid=84422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-45) Link to page directly
12:41:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84424&oldid=84421 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22) /* Non-alphabetic */ Remove duplicate
12:42:19 <nakilon> at first they were croudsourcing
12:42:38 <nakilon> it was called Warehouse 3d and people could make models of things in Sketchup
12:42:54 <nakilon> Sketchup was freeware and a great fun
12:44:02 <esolangs> [[What Mains Numbers?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84425&oldid=64983 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Implementations */ Cat
12:44:08 <nakilon> so I made models for 2-3 buildings in my town, uploaded and they were in Google Earth since then; but now I can't even find them on their website, idk
12:44:41 <nakilon> you could create collections and become moderator of them, similar to how people build wikipedia
12:45:21 <esolangs> [[User:Soundandfury/ECLAIR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84426&oldid=33340 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Implementation */ Deadlink
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13:19:17 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84428&oldid=84361 * Dominicentek * (-41) /* Development Kit */
13:20:50 <esolangs> [[User:Plasmath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84429&oldid=84393 * Plasmath * (-66) Added [[Godencode]].
13:29:50 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84430&oldid=83967 * Plasmath * (+20) I'm trying to add Godencode, but it hasn't been letting me. Making it a 2-step process might work?
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13:35:38 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84431&oldid=84430 * Plasmath * (+47)
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14:03:45 <esolangs> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84432&oldid=83055 * Sanscicondos * (+49)
14:04:09 <esolangs> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84433&oldid=84432 * Sanscicondos * (+13) Added Version 1.3.5 to Github
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14:48:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kermek * New user account
14:55:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84434&oldid=84388 * Kermek * (+407)
14:55:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84435&oldid=84434 * Kermek * (-76)
14:56:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84436&oldid=84435 * Kermek * (-6)
15:49:30 <nakilon> made the second pass https://i.imgur.com/Jq2LUCj.png
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15:59:01 <esolangs> [[Dick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84437&oldid=79507 * Cybertelx * (+15) Added LongDick language
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16:13:27 <esolangs> [[LongDick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84438&oldid=83816 * Cybertelx * (+19) link me
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16:33:12 <esolangs> [[VBF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84439 * VilgotanL * (+2464) created the page
16:34:20 <esolangs> [[VBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84440&oldid=84439 * VilgotanL * (+15) add "and transpiler" to implementation link
16:40:16 <esolangs> [[For The Worthy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84441 * Kermek * (+5730) Created page with "'''For The Worthy''' is an esolang witch only interprets the '1' and '0' characters, thus enabling programmers to reach their final hackerman form. ==Language Overview== ===In..."
16:41:59 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Greetings all. I have a quick question. Is the sort of completeness that Godel talks about equivalent to TC under the Curry-Howard correspondence?
16:44:22 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84442&oldid=84424 * Kermek * (+21)
16:45:02 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> And, if so, is it fair to say that one way to describe the split between computer science and mathematics is in how each field responds to Godel's incompleteness theorem? i.e. mathematicians err on the side of consistency while computer scientists err on the side of completeness?
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16:49:11 <riv> Godels completeness theorem states that in a first order logic, if a formula is true in all models it is provable
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16:50:05 <riv> Godels incompleteness theorem states that arithmetic (and extensions) contain statements that are neither provable or disprovable
16:51:37 <riv> the halting problem gives an explicit example of a problem that cannot be solved by a turing machine
16:51:53 <esolangs> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84443&oldid=83804 * VilgotanL * (+10) add vbf to language list
16:52:14 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Right, and under the Curry-Howard correspondence, a type system is in some sense equivalent to a Hilbert style deductive system in logic. If a no non-normalizing expression is well typed, then the corresponding logic is consistent, right?
16:52:47 <riv> Curry-Howard correspondence equates proofs and programs
16:53:25 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Yes, and formulas as type definitions, among other things, right?
16:53:34 <riv> generally consistency of a typed lambda calculus based logic is proven by showing (A) strong normalization (B) False does not have a normal form - this implies consistency as inconsistency would let you prove False
16:53:55 <Corbin> orbitaldecay72: If you want the short answer, then yes, by Lawvere's fixed-point theorem: http://tac.mta.ca/tac/reprints/articles/15/tr15.pdf
16:54:26 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Yeah, looking for the short answer to test my intuition. Thanks for the link.
16:54:29 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Appreciate you both.
16:54:30 <Corbin> This is a very abstract category-theoretic statement. It can be specialized to get Gödel's Incompleteness, and also to get Turing's Halting.
16:55:03 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Looks like I need to learn category theory :)
16:55:46 <riv> The completeness that Godel talks about is not the same as turing completeness
16:56:04 <riv> the fact that there are problems a turing machine can't solve is a type of incompleteness
16:56:23 <Corbin> I think that there were many different reactions to our discovery of computability theory. I don't think it's reasonable to cleave computer science from maths; computer science is the study of algorithms and data structures, which is a special case of studying abstraca.
16:56:28 <riv> turing completeness <- may be better referred to as turing equivalence
16:57:17 <Corbin> Oh, I misread the original question, sorry.
16:57:54 <Corbin> Gödel's Completeness is quite different from Gödel's Incompleteness! I don't know how the former relates to Turing's work, sorry.
16:58:13 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Okay, so in the Curry-Howard sense the halting problem corresponds to some theorem that can neither be proven nor disproven?
16:58:16 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Np, thanks Corbin
16:58:59 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Sorry for my vagueness
16:59:06 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Still learning
16:59:06 <riv> https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/avigad/Teaching/halting.pdf there is a direct proof here of godels first incompleteness theorem using the halting problem as the key element, rather than godels original proof which used a self referential formula as the key element
16:59:25 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> riv: beautiful, this is exactly what I was looking for
16:59:32 <riv> > in the Curry-Howard sense the halting problem corresponds to some theorem that can neither be proven nor disproven?
16:59:34 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘in’
16:59:45 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84444&oldid=84442 * VilgotanL * (+67) add my newest 5 languages
16:59:49 <riv> no, turing machines aren't a typed lambda calculi - so you cannot apply Curry-Howard here
17:00:37 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> yeah, I get that, but typed lambda calculi are of course in some sense equivalent to turing machines, just wondering if it makes sense theoretically
17:00:54 <riv> a typed lambda calculus must not be turing equivalent
17:00:57 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> or rather, lambda calculi in general are in some sense equivalent to turing machines
17:01:10 <riv> the strong normalization condition says that every algorithm terminates in a finite number of steps
17:01:11 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> I understand that simply typed lambda calculus is not tc
17:01:23 <riv> neither is dependently typed, like Coq for example
17:01:37 <riv> this is what enables a consistency proof to be done
17:01:42 <Corbin> riv: Note that Curry-Howard-Lambek still applies, and typed lambda calculi each give a Cartesian closed category for a model, where we can try to apply Lawvere's fixed-point theorem.
17:02:43 <Corbin> But yeah, generally when it *does* apply, there's enough data for a Turing category, where there's an object representing all of the untyped terms.
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17:03:31 <riv> the untyped lambda calculus is turing equivalent, but it doesn't have types that you can interpret as logical formulae - so no Curry-Howard bridge there
17:03:35 <Corbin> There's nice tables at https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/computational+trilogy which are recently redone and looking nice.
17:04:57 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Okay, so, another related question, when Godel talks about incompleteness, is this in some sense equivalent to sub tc? Re: what Corbin was mentioning.
17:05:27 <Corbin> Turing showed that there's a computer program which, if given a program that could solve Halting, creates a contradiction.
17:06:34 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> That is my understanding of how the halting problem is proven to be uncomputable
17:06:37 <Corbin> Let "Truth" be the question of whether a formula in arithmetic is true. Gödel showed that there's a proof which, if given a proof that could solve Truth, creates a contradiction.
17:07:09 <Corbin> (Technically Tarski showed this, and similarly we can't mention Turing without the far-more-useful Rice's Theorem; there's too many people to remember~)
17:07:30 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Of course, we all stand on the shoulders of history :)
17:08:50 <riv> What is the connection between Tarski's undefinability of truth and Godels incompleteness?
17:09:10 <riv> > The undefinability theorem is conventionally attributed to Alfred Tarski. Gödel also discovered the undefinability theorem in 1930, while proving his incompleteness theorems published in 1931, and well before the 1933 publication of Tarski's work
17:09:11 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:124: error: parse error on input ‘in’
17:09:13 <riv> oh that is funny I didn't know that
17:12:06 <riv> it doesn't seem to imply godels incompleteness
17:15:30 <Corbin> BTW, https://www.logicmatters.net/resources/pdfs/godelbook/GodelBookLM.pdf is quite good, for anybody wanting to understand all that Gödelian stuff. I had to take it slow, because the details are extremely nuanced.
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17:18:15 <Corbin> If you just want to see how category theorists might apply Lawvere's work to simplify thinking about all of this, then https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0305282.pdf is so good.
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17:29:17 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84445&oldid=84417 * GreenThePear * (+47) Clarifications and fixes about the number system, plus other polishing
17:31:35 <riv> https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0305282.pdf <- this is really cool!
17:35:26 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84446&oldid=84406 * Plasmath * (+124) Forgot one small part of if command.
17:36:21 <riv> The Lob's Paradox one is a bit jarring
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17:55:33 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84447&oldid=84446 * Plasmath * (-3) Made another mistake in the description.
18:05:16 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84448&oldid=84447 * Plasmath * (+16) I think I finally worded this in a good way.
18:11:32 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Corbin: I'm thinking more about my comments on the distinction between computer science and mathematics. Most of my experience is as a software engineer. My education is in math, but I don't know a lot about proof theory. The thing I noticed is that, AFAIK, a program which does not halt corresponds to a proof of a contradiction in mathematics by
18:11:33 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Curry-Howard. In programming, we use languages that permit infinite loops, but in mathematics we don't use axiom systems that allow proving contradictions.
18:12:02 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> On the surface, this makes sense because in classical logic if we permit a contradiction as a theorem, then everything entails. But in paraconsistent logics this is not true.
18:12:23 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> As paraconsistent logics explicitly reject the principle of explosion.
18:13:32 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> So, why don't mathematicians use paraconsistent logics to permit a small class of contradictions as theorems but software engineers use languages that permit infinite loops?
18:13:49 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84449&oldid=84448 * Plasmath * (+31) Forgot yet another thing about this command. This is it though. I've made sure.
18:13:49 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Does this make sense, or am I way off?
18:16:23 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> I recognize that what I'm proposing is a totally reformulation of how math is done, but just wondering in the spirit of intellectual inquiry
18:17:29 <Corbin> Sure, and the philosophy of why logic is even a good idea is historically important. Frege and Quine had strong but inscrutable opinions on this sort of thing.
18:18:54 <myname> forbidding infinite loops would need you to solve the halting problem, doesn't it?
18:18:55 <esolangs> [[Meta Memes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84450&oldid=72253 * Caenbe * (+9) Stubbify
18:19:02 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Okay, glad I'm making sense. I recently learned about paraconsistent logics and dialetheism and immediately sensed a correlation between what those philosophies are advocating and what I do as a software engineer.
18:19:05 <myname> doesn't sound like an easy task for me
18:19:16 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> myname: nah, just make your language sub turing
18:19:25 <Corbin> There is an old question: Shouldn't contradictions be relevant to the proofs which use them? If I prove that the sky is simultaneously blue and not-blue, does that make 1=2? If so, *how*?
18:19:39 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84451&oldid=84449 * Plasmath * (+0) My documentation was hard to read.
18:19:40 <myname> great, have a language that probably cannot do the task you are trying to solve
18:20:30 <Corbin> Ah, sure. Note that a proper dialethist cannot refute a trivialist, who claims that all things are true. In particular, a dialethist cannot prove to them that anything is false; the law of non-contradiction is a missing logical lever they'd need.
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18:21:23 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Corbin: Yeah, of course. There are definitely philosophical issues with dialetheism too, I just noticed that philosophically it was closer to what I was doing than classic logic was.
18:21:24 <Corbin> myname: Most GPU programs are not Turing-complete. Instead, a Turing-complete CPU program repeatedly takes bounded steps by submitting bounded programs to the GPU.
18:22:09 <myname> sure, you can have arbitrary many sub-tc sub-tasks, but you want to have a tc system at some point or another
18:22:12 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> i.e. by using a language that allows for infinite loops I'm implicity rejecting non-contradiction
18:22:34 <Corbin> orbitaldecay72: I'm looking for a good reference, but a simple slogan is "there's no type of non-halting programs", along myname's lines. This means that it's not possible to use Curry-Howard to try to construct a family of usable contraditions.
18:23:35 <myname> also, at least in terms of semantics, an infinite loop is considered to have no semantical meaning. it's just one of the points where theory and practice diverge
18:23:36 <Corbin> In general, computers are constructive and effective, so while we don't have LEM or Choice, we do still have intuitionistic type theory, which is plenty powerful.
18:23:37 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> this is where I don't know enough about formal type theory to recognize what is a limitation of classical logic, and what is a limitation of type theory
18:23:47 <myname> imperative programming makes things hard
18:24:20 <Corbin> orbitaldecay72: Lucky 10000: https://www.ams.org/journals/bull/2017-54-03/S0273-0979-2016-01556-4/S0273-0979-2016-01556-4.pdf
18:25:46 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Corbin: thanks!
18:26:20 <Corbin> Ha, don't thank me yet. It took me a while to personally overcome old beliefs about maths and accept topos theory as a reasonable way to get things done.
18:27:03 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> My thinking is this. We can definitely construct a Hilbert style axiom system that allows us to prove a contradiction (we have to try hard to avoid this). If type systems are basically equivalent to these, then why can't we construct a type system in which a non-normalizing term is well typed?
18:27:12 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Corbin: I'm always trying to overcome old beliefs :)
18:28:01 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Again, I'm way out of my depth here. Just trying to develop some sort of intuition for the topic.
18:29:13 <Corbin> No worries. The answer I'd choose to keep going with Curry-Howard-Lambek, and do some category theory. We usually say that proofs of contradiction are rare because they can be shown to be categorically equivalent.
18:30:06 <Corbin> Categorically, an arrow into the initial object can only come from another initial object, and they're isomorphic. Logically, a proof of contradiction can only come from another contradiction, and they're equivalent.
18:30:17 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Cool. I'll follow up with the category theory. Whenever I start barking about these questions I almost universally hear, "See category theory". Unfortunately I haven't done that yet, so I suppose I should!
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18:30:44 <Corbin> (Constructively, recally that a proof of contradiction ~P is literally something like "P -> false". Being able to logically entail falsity is the ur-contradiction.)
18:31:16 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Corbin: But doesn't this all presuppose classical logic? i.e. what if we are using a logic in which contradiction doesn't entail everything?
18:31:26 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Or am I missing the point?
18:31:54 <Corbin> Category theory's just so much neater for logic. Like, take *any* formal logic with rewrite rules. There's a category whose objects are equivalence classes of terms, and whose arrows embody the rewrite rules.
18:32:07 <esolangs> [[User:GreenThePear]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84452 * GreenThePear * (+702) Created
18:32:16 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Got it. Alright, next stop category theory :)
18:32:23 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> Thanks so much for your help. I really appreciate it.
18:33:35 <Corbin> This all presupposes some constructive logic, but not classical logic. That's the key change in POV. And yes, it's possible to build interesting paraconsistent models, and also to require relevance for contradictions, but we don't necessarily know how to implement those in computers.
18:34:03 <Corbin> No worries. Sorry for dumping so much information onto you; hopefully it makes a little sense. Bauer's paper is really eye-opening on its own.
18:38:05 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay72> The information is great. I come here whenever I have a question that I'm having trouble answering because invariably I get a ton of information dumped on me haha
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18:44:50 <riv> if categories are great why aren't there 2-categories?
18:47:36 <oerjan> https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/ (note: i'm not really a follower but i've heard about it)
18:48:15 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84453&oldid=84445 * GreenThePear * (-4) /* Examples */
18:50:10 <esolangs> [[Python is Magic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84454 * Gilbert189 * (+6954) Created page with "Python is Magic is a very restricted version of Python 3. On Python is Magic, only magic functions can be used. ==Warm-up== This is a valid Python is Magic code: __name__.__..."
18:50:24 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_category_theory might be more elucidating. (i haven't read that either.)
18:50:35 <shachaf> If cats are so great why aren't there 2-cats?
18:50:52 <oerjan> i was about to mention shachaf, i think he knows a lot more about it than i
18:51:18 <oerjan> if you can keep him from doing feline puns
18:51:41 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84455&oldid=81403 * Gilbert189 * (-61)
18:51:42 <riv> https://www.reddit.com/r/confusing_perspective/comments/c95247/siamese_twins_cats/ here is a 2-cat
18:58:03 <Corbin> As a warmup, my housecat was yowling all last night. We got a little cat opera'd.
18:58:35 <Corbin> I still like "sets are 0-categories"; all of the structure of set theory is like a "decategorified" version of category theory.
19:00:57 <shachaf> Remember, booleans are just -1-categories.
19:01:46 <riv> is this true?
19:03:00 <shachaf> See https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/negative+thinking
19:03:05 <b_jonas> one conversation about image processing and one about formal logic. I don't contribute much today, but I'm glad the channel is back to its old weird self
19:03:18 <oerjan> it slightly reminds me that certain definitions of dimension consider the empty set -1-dimensional
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19:05:02 <oerjan> i'd have to look that up
19:06:31 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension#Topological_spaces starts with the lebesgue covering dimension which is an example
19:09:48 <riv> b_jonas, thanks!
19:10:02 <oerjan> seems to be true for the inductive ones too
19:52:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84456&oldid=83822 * Qwertyu63 * (+563) /* Sign checking */
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19:58:59 <b_jonas> and the weird thing is, half of the nicks I don't even recognize from earlier, and I wonder if people just took the opportunity at the network switch to choose new nicks and I'm so stupid as to not recognize them after that, but that probably isn't the case
19:59:52 <b_jonas> this channel does somehow indeed manage to pull in new weird people, even though I have no idea how they find their way here because we don't advertise ourselves very much and I find it hard to find my way into these kinds of communities
20:00:17 <b_jonas> also I have all sorts of personal problems and sometimes you help but sometimes you cause me to stay up at night when I really shoulnd't, not that I'm blaming you, just saying
20:00:48 <b_jonas> and the sad part is when that happens and I know that the other people who I'm talking to are Europeans and have a messed up sleep cycle hurting them too
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20:01:20 <b_jonas> the "booleans are just -1-categories" thing sounds somehow wrong though
20:01:48 <b_jonas> or at least not true in the literal sense but perhaps there's some interesting enough analogy there that might work even if not in the literal sense
20:01:56 <riv> b_jonas, i used to be rain1
20:02:25 <b_jonas> and I knwo that moony renamed himself to, um, let me consult NAMES
20:03:19 <oerjan> b_jonas: i know at least keegan took that opportunity too
20:04:10 <b_jonas> and perhaps some old people who left #esoteric for years but stayed on freenode, they took this oppurtunity to just CHECK on which old channels move there because they wanted to know just in case, and joined, and got stuck
20:04:19 <b_jonas> because that's certainly something I'd do with other channels
20:04:51 <b_jonas> anyway, moony took a short nick and I think I'll recognize him if he returns under that
20:05:00 <nakilon> I had to change my nickname to velik
20:05:28 <b_jonas> what? "had to" but renamed the bot to the old name?
20:05:58 <nakilon> I just realised that I had to
20:05:58 <b_jonas> (well he's called "moon" now, but some people switch between nicks)
20:06:32 <b_jonas> yeah, that makes more sense even though I never felt the need, perhaps because I feel lucky for choosing b_jonas because it's a better name than I knew when I came up with it
20:06:38 <oerjan> i thought moon had always been switching nicks
20:06:45 <nakilon> I still don't know who's the pythondebugshell
20:06:49 <oerjan> but usualy not very far
20:06:56 <b_jonas> that's why I recognize him more easily
20:07:18 <b_jonas> I still don't know who Corbin is, and of course sometimes wonder about people who I do recall but don't seem to come in anymore
20:07:44 <b_jonas> although... there is a certain person who used to come in and I think used to ask about formal logic... I wonder
20:07:47 <riv> i know who Corbin is :>
20:08:19 <b_jonas> no, probably no, because I think they're from another continent
20:08:27 * oerjan looks quizzically at Corbin
20:08:29 <riv> orbitaldecay72 is the one who had that amazing stuff about bitfuck right?
20:08:43 <nakilon> "I have all sorts of personal problems" -- heh, I'm a meter away from losing a flat and being kicked out of the country, and it makes me have bad dreams every night now
20:08:57 <riv> omg that sounds horrible and stressful D:
20:10:50 <b_jonas> also, don't take this the wrong way, but hearing that from other people also makes it seem like this is back to good old #esoteric, because they're willing to share more than I do
20:11:09 <b_jonas> about their problems, that is, not that I'm too careful about letting private details on
20:14:39 <b_jonas> and I think that one terrible time when I was in a psychiatric hospital in 2018, the one I don't talk about often, part of what helped me shrug some of it off (besides my parents' care and being lucky about which doctor happened to do urgent care that night) was that I recalled that at least two different people on #esoteric told me earlier about when they were in psychiatric hospital, and I wasn't
20:14:45 <b_jonas> thinking they were in great state, but they survived being in a hospital, one even for an extended time and IRCing from there, and didn't seem to be completely broken even months after,
20:15:05 <b_jonas> plus similar stories from other weird parts of the internet
20:15:44 <b_jonas> although it also worked because at least I did learn what I really should pay attention to in order to not get back there again
20:16:35 <b_jonas> I just rarely feel stupid enough to discuss it in logged and googleable parts of the internet, especially as I know my nick isn't all that secret
20:18:01 <b_jonas> and it would have been wiser to use a disposable alternate nick, if not now, at least that one time when I posted about it to a forum
20:19:35 <nakilon> woah, there are at least three people here who were in psychiatric hospitals?
20:20:27 <riv> I do miss some of the people who used to come here
20:22:14 <nakilon> I would probably not mind to get stuck in anywhere as long as there are some family members or friends to take care of your home, bills, hypothetical cat, etc.
20:22:31 <riv> lol, hypothetical cat
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20:32:14 <b_jonas> at least if you count people who used to be here at some point but might not visit now
20:34:04 <b_jonas> I wasn't *stuck*. it was a short time, I knew I'd get out soon, that's what the doctor said to me and she was right, and once she even allowed me to temporarily leave for a few hours in what she said was against the hospital's rules (not that I have illusions about those rules consistently being kept) because my family promised to bring me back
20:34:36 <b_jonas> it's the at least one other user, the one who IRCed from the hospital, regularly, who was stuck
20:35:30 <b_jonas> I don't pretend that I'm not stuck with a psychiatric condition that I'd have to be careful with for my whole life even if I managed to get my life mostly normal, but I was not stuck in the hospital
20:59:01 <b_jonas> also hi future boss, who will probably find this months or years from now when searching for my name, I know you're listening and want to find out what I'm hiding by looking on the internet and asking previous employers' opinions, and you're going to pay me less money if you don't just reject me completely, but I think I wouldn't want to work in a company that has managers less diligent than that, I
20:59:07 <b_jonas> couldn't trust that they could keep themselves in the business
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21:28:29 <shachaf> Happy pigeon appreciation day!
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21:35:39 <aarchi> Does anyone by chance have a copy of the HaPyLi compiler? It's a Haskell/Python/Lisp-like language that compiles to Whitespace.
21:36:41 <aarchi> The website went offline around 2012 and it wasn't completely archived on the Internet Archive.
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21:56:52 * pikhq counts herself very glad nobody else wants pikhq
21:57:36 <pikhq> riv: yeah, i miss some people who used to be here too. still in touch with some though i don't talk with them much; also still frequently in touch with others
21:57:51 <riv> oh that's nice
21:58:23 <pikhq> and re: psych hospital. glad i've never been in one but fuck i've been close
22:00:03 <pikhq> turns out being into absolutely weird programming languages has a high overlap with just being weird as a person in one of a few different ways
22:01:53 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84457&oldid=84358 * Zzo38 * (+94) The {edit} macro in Free Hero Mesh
22:11:25 <pikhq> i mean i am very much a weird person so :p
22:22:40 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, but how do so many of those kinds of people actually find their way here, that's what I don't understand
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22:24:46 <b_jonas> I don't understand that even after I just personally recommended this channel to someone and they came here
22:25:09 <b_jonas> because how did I find them in first place
22:25:17 <pikhq> if you're that sort of weird you're gonna actively seek it out
22:26:59 <zzo38> I don't have a copy of the HaPyLi
22:32:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hjoker4 * New user account
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22:49:13 <zzo38> Do you like the picture editor of Free Hero Mesh?
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23:07:42 <zzo38> Will they add the Quasijarus compression format into newer versions of GNU/Linux and/or non-Quasijarus BSD?
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23:14:51 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84458&oldid=84356 * Zero player rodent * (+211)
23:18:03 <sknebel> if you ever dig into esolangs even a bit and want to talk to people into them this channel is hard to not find. the esolangs wiki is like the resource referenced everywhere after all
23:26:28 <pikhq> hence how i found it when i was, like, 15
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23:40:42 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84459&oldid=84458 * Zero player rodent * (+99)
23:47:01 <esolangs> [[VBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84460&oldid=84440 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* Implementations */ Cats
23:47:51 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84461&oldid=84459 * Zero player rodent * (+149)
23:48:24 <esolangs> [[GotoFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84462&oldid=83713 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) /* Implementations */ Cats, see also
23:48:41 <esolangs> [[Jumplang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84463&oldid=74090 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* See also */ See also.
23:53:25 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay17> riv: yep! I was playing around with bitfuck a few years ago.
23:53:57 <esolangs> <orbitaldecay17> specifically messing around with the reversible variant, which permits some interesting minimizations
00:00:26 <esolangs> [[Turkey]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84464 * ResU * (+1743) Created page with "Turkey is a derivative of [[Chicken]]. It was created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Opcode !Description |- |1 |Prints "turkey". |- |2-27 |Prints t..."
00:04:19 <esolangs> [[GotoFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84465&oldid=84462 * ResU * (-1) /* Instructions */
00:06:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Delta Salein ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84466 * Salpynx * (+818) reverse engineering a possible truth machine
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01:04:00 <keegan> I have been in a psych hospital
01:04:07 <keegan> twice, for one night each
01:04:28 <keegan> they remembered me the second time even though it was a few years later
01:04:50 <keegan> not sure how to feel about that
01:05:05 <keegan> BBL, going mushroom hunting
01:10:49 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84470&oldid=84399 * ResU * (+1437)
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01:34:02 <oerjan> me too. if i remember right, i count at least 5 former or current #esotericians.
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02:10:00 <pikhq> keegan: oh i thought the mushroom hunting trip started earlier!
02:10:11 <pikhq> keegan: well, enjoy <3
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05:13:27 <b_jonas> I guess it helps that the channel is so old, and has logs on the searchable internet going back for so long
05:37:36 <nakilon> should I rewatch One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
05:39:39 <nakilon> yay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders_in_film
05:48:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: I can believe 5, but it wouldn't have helped me to know the number, as opposed to specific first person anecdotes by people who also chatted about other things here that mattered more than knowing in abstract how many such people there were
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06:58:31 <zzo38> All of the rounds of ChaCha20 is reversible except the final round, isn't it?
07:03:24 <riv> i would think either all of it or none of it is reversible
07:04:21 <riv> oh the rounds are reversible, but the bit where they add the input is not reversible
07:04:27 <riv> unless you know the input already
07:20:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MaowImpl * New user account
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07:34:12 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I meant
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09:38:51 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84472 * TinyGuy32 * (+1785) Created page with "==DoFor== DoFor is an esoteric programing language. It is special because it uses the same command for input, output and variables. ==Commands:== {| class="wikitable" |+..."
09:39:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84473&oldid=84444 * TinyGuy32 * (+12) /* Non-alphabetic */
09:41:31 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84474&oldid=84473 * TinyGuy32 * (+12) /* D */
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12:44:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WriteOnly * New user account
12:45:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84475&oldid=84474 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Non-alphabetic */ Remove another alphabetic language from non-alphabetic list
12:54:41 <esolangs> [[For The Worthy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84476&oldid=84441 * Kermek * (+15)
12:56:19 <esolangs> [[Coeus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84477&oldid=84401 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+16) Improved the interpreter hyperlink text.
12:56:23 <esolangs> [[User:Kermek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84478 * Kermek * (+84) Created page with "==Contributions== Created [https://esolangs.org/wiki/For_The_Worthy For The Worthy]."
13:36:33 <esolangs> [[Snek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84479 * KingJellyfish * (+883) Created page with "== Snek == A language made almost entirely by the following characters: <code>| _ / \</code>. An instruction pointer moves along the "paths" made by these characters and comm..."
13:42:12 <esolangs> [[Snek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84480&oldid=84479 * KingJellyfish * (-513)
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13:58:09 <esolangs> [[Snek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84481&oldid=84480 * KingJellyfish * (+2661)
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14:01:19 <esolangs> [[Snek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84482&oldid=84481 * KingJellyfish * (+227)
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14:01:50 <esolangs> [[Snek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84483&oldid=84482 * KingJellyfish * (-1)
14:09:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84484&oldid=84471 * WriteOnly * (+380)
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14:24:29 <esolangs> [[Coeus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84485&oldid=84477 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+497) Improved formatting of code tokens and added a CAT program example.
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14:28:17 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1236.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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14:36:21 <esolangs> [[User:WriteOnly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84486 * WriteOnly * (+293) Created page with "Hi, I am hobby Haskeller. My dream is run Scheme interpreter on Brainfuck, ETA, Funge, Piet, Subleq and Whitespace. Work is going slow because I am constantly improving my c..."
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15:02:25 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84487&oldid=83148 * Zero player rodent * (+372)
15:07:08 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84488&oldid=84487 * Zero player rodent * (-3)
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15:13:50 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84489&oldid=84286 * Zero player rodent * (+607)
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15:44:15 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84490&oldid=81259 * VilgotanL * (+345) added my self-interpreter
15:56:55 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84491&oldid=84453 * GreenThePear * (+204) /* Expressions */ Parenthesis!
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16:14:51 <esolangs> [[User:WriteOnly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84492&oldid=84486 * WriteOnly * (+94)
16:15:50 <esolangs> [[User:WriteOnly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84493&oldid=84492 * WriteOnly * (+118)
16:16:10 <esolangs> [[ETA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84494&oldid=30446 * WriteOnly * (+160)
16:17:08 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84495&oldid=84491 * GreenThePear * (+341) /* Examples */ Factorial!
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16:17:19 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84496&oldid=84495 * GreenThePear * (+1)
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16:19:39 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84497&oldid=84173 * WriteOnly * (+180)
16:20:03 <esolangs> [[ETA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84498&oldid=84494 * WriteOnly * (+6)
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17:28:23 <riv> hello esolangers
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18:00:38 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84499&oldid=84457 * Zzo38 * (+813) Free Hero Mesh preprocessor
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20:07:04 <esolangs> [[VBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84500&oldid=84460 * VilgotanL * (-97) change infinite counter to slightly smaller version
20:14:17 <esolangs> [[VBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84501&oldid=84500 * VilgotanL * (-8) minify infinite counter slightly more
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20:51:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fox * New user account
21:03:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84502&oldid=84484 * Fox * (+92)
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21:17:35 <esolangs> [[ItOi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84503 * Grs * (+982) Created page with "ItOi or Input to Output instantly is a joke esoteric programming language by ~~~ that only contains two command. == Command == The only command is: {| class="wikitable" |+ Com..."
21:18:56 <esolangs> [[ItOi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84504&oldid=84503 * Grs * (+4) /* Command */
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21:24:28 <esolangs> [[RandBow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84505 * Fox * (+93) Created page with "'''RandBow''' is a visual esoteric programing language. Its like a mix of brainfuck and piet."
21:25:22 <esolangs> [[RandBow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84506&oldid=84505 * Fox * (+10)
21:25:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xxmarijnw * New user account
21:29:36 <esolangs> [[RandBow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84507&oldid=84506 * Fox * (+894)
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21:32:11 <esolangs> [[RandBow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84508&oldid=84507 * Fox * (+9)
21:33:27 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84509&oldid=84220 * Grs * (+82) /* General languages */ ItOi by Grs
21:33:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84510&oldid=84502 * Xxmarijnw * (+188) /* Introductions */
21:33:42 <esolangs> [[Pinocchio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84511&oldid=38260 * Xxmarijnw * (+157) Cleanup and fix example
21:34:11 <esolangs> [[User:Xxmarijnw]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84512 * Xxmarijnw * (+0) Created blank page
21:34:18 <esolangs> [[User:Xxmarijnw]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84513&oldid=84512 * Xxmarijnw * (+23)
21:43:37 <esolangs> [[RandBow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84514&oldid=84508 * Fox * (+255)
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22:09:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dylanrafael05 * New user account
22:12:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84515&oldid=84510 * Dylanrafael05 * (+174) /* Introductions */
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23:10:53 <esolangs> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84516&oldid=83074 * Makonede * (-9)
23:12:39 <esolangs> [[Py256]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84517 * Makonede * (+22203) Created page with "''Not to be confused with [[256]].'' '''Py256''' is a golfing language by [[User:Makonede]]. It uses Base-256 compression to encode long hexadecimal numbers representing prog..."
23:14:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84518&oldid=84475 * Makonede * (+12)
23:14:32 <esolangs> [[User:Makonede]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84519&oldid=82172 * Makonede * (+11)
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23:15:16 <oren> https://pastebin.com/dDrduun1
23:15:32 <oren> I made a closure thingy in C
23:15:41 <oren> This time it works
23:18:17 <oren> tldr it copies entire page that the addF function is on, replaces some data to enclose the argumnet, and returns the copied + modified function
23:18:38 <shachaf> Substituting a known constant in the machine code? Seems risky.
23:18:56 <zzo38> That isn't going to be portable, I think
23:19:09 <shachaf> Probably simpler to pass it an extra argument?
23:22:42 <pikhq> i did a closure thing in c ages ago, though it is _profoundly_ hacky
23:23:08 <pikhq> https://github.com/pikhq/clambda-demo there we are
23:23:32 <pikhq> (portable, but extremely GCC-specific)
23:26:23 <zzo38> I use some GNU extensions in C programming, although there are other compilers that support some of these extensions too
23:30:55 <shachaf> What should the API for a general thing like this be?
23:31:50 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84520&oldid=84517 * Makonede * (+0)
23:33:48 <pikhq> i'm not sure what would be a nice API in general
23:34:13 <pikhq> tbh i've stopped trying to be clever in c; i've come to the conclusion that c is best served by writing _very_ dumb and obviously-correct code
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23:36:07 <shachaf> Well, runtime closures like this are probably hardly ever a good idea.
23:36:25 <shachaf> But good API design is surely worth thinking about in C, and isn't the same thing as gratuitous cleverness.
23:50:53 <oren> well ideally, i'd like it to be such that the returned function looks like any other function pointer to a funtion with that signature
23:52:10 <oren> there would be two ways of doing that: have every function take a closure pointer, perhaps in a dedicated register in the ABI
23:52:16 <shachaf> Right, making it generic over function types is the tricky part.
23:52:42 <shachaf> Here's a sort of thing you can do: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/closure.c
23:52:50 <oren> or, alternatively, the function pointer itself would somehow
23:56:53 <shachaf> I think there's a library that does this, and even makes it work on iOS (where you're not allowed to map executable memory).
23:58:17 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84521&oldid=84520 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) Cat, template
23:59:31 <esolangs> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84522&oldid=84045 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) Distinguish
23:59:36 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe you can be sneaky about it and make it work for every function type.
00:00:26 <shachaf> Wait, R11 isn't caller-save, whoops.
00:05:17 <esolangs> [[Pinocchio]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84523&oldid=84511 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) Cats, misc
00:11:46 <shachaf> oren: Chet out this new version.
00:18:54 <esolangs> [[RandBow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84524&oldid=84514 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+91) /* Rules */ Cats,
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00:40:45 <b_jonas> I just realized that most kids from the smartphone generation might not understand what "I will not buy this record, it is scratched." means
00:45:48 <pikhq> nah, there's a bit of a resurgence now
00:46:27 <pikhq> b_jonas: records are no longer a mainstream standard medium but they've taken on a bit of a second life as a collector's format
00:49:23 <oerjan> . o O ( i will not buy this smartphone, it is scratched )
00:51:09 <Corbin> b_jonas: What pikhq said. They know what "a record" is, but they think that they make you look old or like a hipster. (I have niblings who have explained my uncoolness.)
00:52:33 <zzo38> What someone told me is that phonograph records are good quality only the first time they are played
00:52:56 <oerjan> FuckAndrewLee: sheesh. on the bright side maybe nakilon will finally admit we were right :P
00:54:02 <shachaf> oerjan: what odds do you assign to that twh
00:54:24 <pikhq> idk i think nakilon might be rasengan
00:55:07 <shachaf> As I said in another channel, this is a classic heartwarming Christmas story.
00:55:26 <shachaf> The grinch wanted to ruin Freenode for everyone, and almost succeeded, but it turns out Freenode doesn't come from a store.
00:56:06 <shachaf> Maybe his heart will grow three sizes eventually?
00:59:00 <oren> I listen to most of my music on low-bitrate mp3s
00:59:05 <oerjan> pikhq: i seriously doubt lee is into esolang stuff
01:00:51 <b_jonas> Corbin, pikhq: do they know about CDs and DVDs?
01:01:12 <oren> some people think 32k is too low tho
01:01:36 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84525&oldid=84521 * Makonede * (-229)
01:01:53 <pikhq> b_jonas: depends on the kids' age but probably. they're no longer current but they're not _that_ far removed from currency
01:02:13 <pikhq> just like a typical kid circa 2000 would still know about vhs even though it was an obsolete format then
01:02:42 <zzo38> The advantage of phonograph record is the simplicity of the format; it is a groovy format, rather than a digital one, and you might be able to play even if the power out (if you have one that doesn't need the power). Other than that, it isn't really the advantage generally
01:03:38 <oren> but I did tests, and was unable to hear any difference between 128kb/s and the same songs at 32kb/s
01:04:07 <Corbin> b_jonas: Oh yeah. They're experts on the difference between different disc formats. Do you remember when you learned that MIDI, WAV, and AVI were all different? Same sort of story.
01:05:00 <pikhq> oren: you may want to see an audiologist, i think you have severe hearing loss
01:05:18 <pikhq> (this is like claiming you can't see the difference between 32bpp and 2bpp)
01:10:10 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84526&oldid=84525 * Makonede * (+7)
01:20:55 <oren> have you tested it yourself?
01:22:05 <oren> ffmpeg -i some.mp3 -b:a 32k some_out.mp3
01:23:04 <pikhq> 32kbps mp3 isn't merely "i can tell the difference" low it's "this sounds like hold music on a phone call" low
01:24:06 <oren> hmm... maybe specific characteristics of the music i'm testing with
01:25:24 <oren> oh duh, these are youtube rips, the original probably was already low-bitrate
01:26:22 <pikhq> yeah, by way of comparison around 42kbps is considered acceptable for _speech_ encoding with mp3
01:27:17 <oerjan> . o O ( oren gets all his music from phone calls holding )
01:29:33 <oren> okay... did u know that VLC doesn't show the actual bitrate of an mp3, just the bitrate it *says* it has?
01:30:41 <oren> which means, that if something is transcoded to a low-quality youtube and back to 128kb/s
01:35:15 <oren> however, one of these mp3's *says* in vlc 8kb/s
01:37:37 <oren> https://imgur.com/2x60tVI
01:38:15 <oren> i downloaded it sometime prior to 2009
01:39:06 <pikhq> i guarantee you'd know if it actually was though
01:40:29 <oren> based on the file size it's 24 kb/s
01:40:45 <oren> or 3 kilobytes per second
01:44:23 <oren> that at least explains why transcoding to 32 kb/s makes no difference for a lot of these... their actual qulity is already very low
02:01:56 <esolangs> [[User:MaowImpl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84527 * MaowImpl * (+261) My page :)
02:02:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * MaowImpl * uploaded "[[File:MaowImpl July2020.png]]": MaowImpl's profile picture as of July 2020.
02:03:57 <esolangs> [[User:MaowImpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84529&oldid=84527 * MaowImpl * (+44)
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02:06:26 <esolangs> [[User:MaowImpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84530&oldid=84529 * MaowImpl * (+102)
02:09:45 <esolangs> [[User:MaowImpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84531&oldid=84530 * MaowImpl * (-16)
02:26:34 <esolangs> [[Py256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84532&oldid=84526 * Makonede * (+109)
02:34:51 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84533&oldid=84532 * Makonede * (+101)
03:16:34 <esolangs> [[FurASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84534 * MaowImpl * (+3103) an alright page, hope it's good enough for the wonderful language of FurASM, our wonderful god
03:16:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * MaowImpl * uploaded "[[File:FurASM Logo.png]]"
03:17:46 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84536&oldid=84533 * Makonede * (+26)
03:18:45 <esolangs> [[FurASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84537&oldid=84534 * MaowImpl * (+6) fixed image size
03:20:05 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84538&oldid=84509 * MaowImpl * (+118) FurASM
03:20:10 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84539&oldid=84536 * Makonede * (+12)
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05:33:47 <esolangs> [[Finites at Fredy's]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84540&oldid=83102 * Salpynx * (+22) Thematic cat
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06:00:26 <esolangs> [[Finites at Fredy's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84541&oldid=84540 * Salpynx * (+549) OPENQASM 2.0 conversion
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07:40:09 <nakilon> at first you were saying it's bad that he has our "personal data" while being so much diletant in subject of its protection that you create the same account on another network thinking that it would improve anything, lol, using the same nicknames and channels
07:40:37 <nakilon> now when the data is purged you are saying "oh no, it's bad that they now DON'T have the data", lol
07:41:23 <nakilon> and who should you blame in sabotaging and instability other than yourself being supporting on the network ruining
07:42:46 <nakilon> you fucked up your own home
07:42:56 <nakilon> shitted and then abandoned it
07:43:29 <nakilon> tomorrow network owners will say they don't like another leader and you'll repeat it after them again
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08:02:41 <Taneb> I've decided that I think that SQL is kind of neat
08:03:05 <int-e> sure, it's kind of declarative
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08:12:43 <spruit11> dear people and ops. please confirm the transition from freenode to libera
08:14:03 <Taneb> spruit11: wiki confirms it: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal
08:14:24 <int-e> spruit11: the people confirm it, by and large
08:14:38 <int-e> nakilon seems to be in denial about it, but meh, there's always somebody.
08:15:45 <spruit11> ah, well. no need to answer. I'll just see what happens the next week.
08:16:05 <myname> https://isfreenodedeadyet.com
08:16:48 <int-e> spruit11: I think b_jonas maintained a dual presence
08:17:18 <int-e> of course now that freenode's getting a fresh start... last I checked #esoteric wasn't even registered
08:17:37 <int-e> (and I won't register :P)
08:18:01 <spruit11> looks like it's a redirect since I ended up here
08:18:36 <int-e> spruit11: I mean on freenode :P Yes it's registered here and redirects to #esolangs
08:19:20 <myname> i'm curious about how many channels are going to re-register in general
08:21:15 <int-e> I shouldn't care... but I'm at least mildly curious too
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08:35:11 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84542&oldid=84496 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+33) /* See also */
08:40:09 <FireFly> [ #'j eval services have been restored, btw'
08:40:33 <FireFly> I figured you probably want it in here since it was in #esoteric
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08:42:04 <Taneb> I think I crashed it by private messaging it
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08:48:29 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
08:52:59 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84543&oldid=84472 * TinyGuy32 * (+795)
08:53:57 <Taneb> fungot, what do you think about relational algebras?
08:53:57 <fungot> Taneb: 4 legs to a table doesn't even seem to be
08:55:12 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84544&oldid=84543 * TinyGuy32 * (+0) /* calling a function: */
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09:14:35 <fungot> ^(HackEso|lambdabot|metasepia|idris-bot|blsqbot|j-bot|esolangs|velik|perlbot)!
09:14:49 <fizzie> Looks like I did keep j-bot on the list.
09:23:25 <fizzie> Also, I'm still register over on the other side, so either they ported over accounts after all, or I'm still in some old chunk of the network after the server I was on disconnected.
09:27:51 <shachaf> You're in an old chunk of the network.
09:29:36 <fizzie> Mm. It didn't have a MOTD on the server, so I sort of assumed it had to be new.
09:30:14 <shachaf> Well, maybe there are more than two chunks, or something more complicated?
09:30:26 <int-e> fizzie: "freenode legacy" is still up, cf. https://www.devever.net/~hl/freenode_suicide
09:30:55 <int-e> (well, was a short while ago... these things are changing by the hour)
09:31:22 <int-e> it's separate networks, because of different IRCds
09:32:30 <fizzie> Yeah, guess so. And to be fair, it did have *a* MOTD:
09:32:32 <fizzie> "rinnegan.freenode.net Message of the Day - This is charybdis MOTD you might replace it, but if not your friends will laugh at you."
09:33:20 <fizzie> That's s little like the "Apache is installed" page you get sometimes.
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09:42:31 <wib_jonas> oren: I wonder if you could use a single thread-specific variable to pass the closure upvalue, and then you could have the closure wrappers be copies of the same short function regardless the prototype of the wrapped function, you implement the wrapper directly in assembly and only substitute the upvalue constant and the function address, as then
09:42:32 <wib_jonas> this wrapper won't need to access the stack or saved/parameter registers and just jumps directly to the wrapped function after saving the value to the thread-specific variable.
09:43:51 <wib_jonas> it's not the most efficient way to do this, but then if you wanted something efficient, you wouldn't use this kind of closure, only saner interfaces that pass around the upvalue together with the function pointer\
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09:49:25 <wib_jonas> int-e, spruit11: I'm not connecting to freenode anymore, though I might try to connect in the future if I want to track down out where some channel moved or something like that
09:51:08 <j-bot> Taneb: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
09:51:24 <Taneb> (that's what I PM'd j-bot earlier just before it quit and rejoined)
09:54:12 <FireFly> in `ircgot': error from irc client: :tungsten.libera.chat 486 j-bot Taneb :You must log
09:54:13 <FireFly> in with services to message this user (RuntimeError)
09:55:41 <FireFly> I should figure out giving it an account later, but also not entirely sure that should cause it to crash
09:59:17 <wib_jonas> FireFly: because it's an error code that the code doesn't recognize. you should probably ignore that error so that if someone has that user mode flag set and you can't message them, it doesn't crash.
09:59:30 <wib_jonas> jevalbot dies on unknown numeric error codes
09:59:36 <j-bot> wib_jonas, jevalbot source is https://github.com/FireyFly/jevalbot (originally http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz)
10:00:13 <wib_jonas> FireFly: ignore it here: https://github.com/FireyFly/jevalbot/blob/master/jeval.rb#L1064
10:00:43 <wib_jonas> or perhaps at https://github.com/FireyFly/jevalbot/blob/master/jeval.rb#L1070 instead\
10:06:35 <spruit11> yah, all channel and people I more or less care about seemed to have moved so I tried to help out a bit and then deleted the network.
10:06:52 <spruit11> we moved. no point looking back
10:07:02 <wib_jonas> FireFly: I mean the user modes +R and +G in the target user
10:08:21 <wib_jonas> on that note, if you're a channel op or wiki admin and want to get channel rights to the OFTC channels #esolangs (and #esoteric ) which is our escape route, contact b_jonas
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10:40:31 <FireFly> wib_jonas: yeah, I probably should, I'll look at that later
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10:57:13 <esolangs> [[FurASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84545&oldid=84537 * MaowImpl * (+22)
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11:20:49 <fizzie> Heh, out of curiosity went to check the raw logs as to what server the esowiki bot had connected to this morning, since I don't see it myself. Looks like it's connected to something that calls itself "lol.test.freenode.net".
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12:23:55 <esolangs> [[Furcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84546&oldid=77955 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) /* Interpreters */ See also
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13:08:53 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84547&oldid=84542 * GreenThePear * (+4) Since it was actually inspired by Airline food, I decided to put that straight in the first paragraph instead
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13:21:45 <wib_jonas> ``` coins # some people pointed out that "libera" sounds like a name for a cryptocurrency, so just want to check if there's any easter egg here
13:21:48 <HackEso> antalcoin codcoin waitcoin vilcoin nandcoin alerisorcoin minedcoin hq9+coin attecoin remocoin iirgcoin simumcoin ouercoin migurehecoin adjcoin webcoin meycoin tectcoin carintycoin firmacoin
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14:09:08 <esolangs> [[User:Grs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84548&oldid=84011 * Grs * (+26)
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15:19:53 <imode1> nakilon: so why don't you fucking leave here you absolute blind fuck.
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15:36:35 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84549&oldid=84346 * Toxinite * (+69)
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15:42:03 <int-e> imode: I think that language is inappropriate.
15:42:27 <imode> int-e: and you think the person I was resonding to was a breath of fresh air?
15:42:37 <Corbin> I agree that language is inappropriate. Let's ban language.
15:43:03 <imode> we'll all communicate in blinks.
15:44:03 <int-e> imode: No. I just respect you more than nakilon, I think nakilon is a lost cause. :-P
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16:04:41 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84550&oldid=84245 * S1(210) * (+149) /* Overview */ added list unpacking
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16:10:52 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84551&oldid=84549 * Toxinite * (+205)
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17:03:41 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84552&oldid=84539 * Makonede * (+5)
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17:07:36 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84553&oldid=84552 * Makonede * (-1)
17:08:00 <esolangs> [[Py256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84554&oldid=84553 * Makonede * (+1)
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17:33:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84555 * ResU * (+998) Created page with "(Note: The title of this page was made to be a palindrome. There is no Esolang:Klat gnalosE.) Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE was created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. The commands are..."
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17:42:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84556&oldid=84555 * ResU * (-15) /* a=b */
17:43:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84557&oldid=84556 * ResU * (-7) /* < on tape */
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17:47:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84558&oldid=84557 * ResU * (-17) /* Hello, world! */
17:49:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84559&oldid=84558 * ResU * (+17) /* Truth machine */
17:50:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84560&oldid=84559 * ResU * (+36) /* Truth machine */
17:55:23 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84561&oldid=84368 * ResU * (+49) /* My esolangs: */
17:56:04 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84562&oldid=84561 * ResU * (+0) /* My esolangs: */
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18:03:11 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84563&oldid=84551 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+307) Cats/format and clarification (please fix if wrong)
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18:25:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AceKiron * New user account
18:29:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84564&oldid=84515 * AceKiron * (+231)
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18:33:49 <esolangs> [[User:AceKiron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84565 * AceKiron * (+107) Created page with "15 year/old programmer who made School, an [[esoteric programming language]] soon to be added to this wiki."
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19:00:12 <Sgeo_> Where does the bridge go? Classic Freenode or new Freenode?
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19:18:35 <fizzie> It goes to new right now.
19:18:46 <fizzie> Judging from the fact that I ended up in classic, and I don't see it.
19:19:11 <fizzie> Plus the server it connected to says it's InspIRCd-3, which AIUI is what they switched over to.
19:20:41 <fizzie> I'm pretty puzzled by the continued existence of classic. I got disconnected at around 10am local time, but then (even though I've got it configured as chat.freenode.net, not any specific server) landed on one of the classic servers anyway. And then it's just continued to work. I'd've imagined they'd just terminate all of the old ones.
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19:20:57 <nakilon> 18:19:53 <imode1> nakilon: so why don't you fucking leave here you absolute blind fuck.
19:21:01 <esolangs> <melanophore> is this thing on?
19:21:21 <esolangs> <melanophore> (this is newleenode)
19:21:26 <fizzie> melanophore: In some sense, yes.
19:21:32 <Taneb> fizzie: there has been at least two freenode classics, fwiw. One with services, one without
19:21:58 <nakilon> your words show you to be the smellest piece of shit I've seen for last few months
19:22:10 <imode> nakilon: shut the fuck up you vile troll.
19:22:13 <nakilon> nice achievent, someone might proud
19:22:15 <imode> back on ignore you go.
19:22:22 <fizzie> Well, I'm in one where I got authenticated, in case that means something. But I imagine it won't be around *much* longer.
19:22:39 <int-e> nakilon: you really need to find a new purpose
19:23:47 <nakilon> int-e new purpose for you?
19:24:30 <int-e> nakilon: no, for yourself. something that doesn't make you insult everyone in sight, because that's treally tiring in the long run.
19:25:00 <nakilon> I "insult everyone in sight?"
19:25:10 <nakilon> wash your mouthes kids, before you talk
19:25:19 <fizzie> Since I'm not planning to register the channel in the new network, I'll probably disable the bridge as well.
19:25:22 <imode> int-e: it's fruitless, someone should just ban him already.
19:25:40 <imode> his intent is to troll. if he disagreed, he'd stay on freenode and leave everybody alone.
19:25:56 <imode> that hellhole is certainly welcoming to small-minded freaks.
19:25:57 <int-e> "<nakilon> you fucked up your own home <nakilon> shitted and then abandoned it"
19:26:05 <int-e> not exactly choice words
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19:26:56 <nakilon> somehow you even feel the need to continue shitting even here
19:27:14 <int-e> Not really, your analogy is seriously flawed. But that's not the point... the point is that it's insulting, it's not going to make anyone switch away from Libera at this point.
19:27:52 <imode> I love the freaks that just jump on to Libera to insult people. yeah, that's why you're not and never will be welcome.
19:28:09 <imode> it's an excuse to jump out of the woodwork and yell at people you don't like.
19:28:25 <imode> go back to your termite-ridden shithole.
19:28:36 <nakilon> I can't care less of where are switched too, which network, but what is obvious here is that the freenode did nothing bad to this channel while you definitely pollute it
19:28:50 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o int-e.
19:29:02 -!- int-e has set channel mode: +q $a:nakilon.
19:29:06 -!- int-e has set channel mode: -o int-e.
19:32:56 <fizzie> FWIW I suspect we should probably just drop the whole topic, and I imagine it'll eventually stop coming up naturally. nakilon does talk a lot about actual esolangs stuff, unlike few *actual* trolls we've had over the years. (Not to say I don't think the way they're commenting isn't deliberately insulting.)
19:33:30 <imode> poisoned minds typically regurgitate poison.
19:33:45 <fizzie> Personally I'm kind of more disturbed by the IRCCloud ban than the database wipe. Though I imagine there's some backstory behind there.
19:33:58 <int-e> Yes, we should. But *nakilon* kept bringing up this topic.
19:34:25 <imode> yeah it's not like we antagonized him.
19:34:35 <imode> I even unignored him, thinking he cooled off.
19:34:37 <int-e> imode probably isn't quite innocent because of nick changes (which are visible here even if they're probably primarily for ##freenode)
19:34:49 <imode> int-e: meh, I wasn't participating here in that fashion.
19:35:08 <int-e> other than that... well, the topic does come up simply because freenode is constantly, uhm, evolving
19:35:21 <fizzie> I think as a reaction, mostly, though I certainly haven't fully logread.
19:35:26 <fizzie> 01:52 <oerjan> [..] on the bright side maybe nakilon will finally admit we were right :P
19:35:31 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o int-e.
19:35:36 <fizzie> That's the sort of name-dropping I imagine most people would say *something* to.
19:35:40 -!- int-e has set channel mode: -q $a:nakilon.
19:35:43 -!- int-e has set channel mode: -o int-e.
19:35:44 <imode> true. I do respond when highlighted.
19:36:11 <int-e> I don't actually mind the topic, but the tone and the constant insinuation that everybody is inconsistent and/or stupid is really infuriating
19:37:10 <fizzie> Yeah, fair; the topic *is* kind of relevant, since that's where we were, and now we're here.
19:37:54 <int-e> And of course rasengan's recent actions do not in any way improve the outlook of freenode as a viable platform for anything really... things are constantly changing on a whim of rasengan. Maybe he's done changing things now, maybe not, noone knows.
19:38:24 <arseniiv> (offtopic: there was a discussion of free variables on ##math today yay)
19:38:36 <int-e> So yeah... I'm happy we set up camp here early on.
19:39:07 <imode> the problem is you're going to get a larger set of "lee sympathizers" because 1. people enjoy being contrarians/trolling, 2. people haven't kept up with the insanity, but I don't think there's many people who will end up sympathizers after that, or 3. people actually enjoy the culture that lee is trying to bring in, which is some 4chan shit considering l0de is now staff.
19:39:44 <int-e> So... hrm. Should we make it a rule to avoid the topic completely? That may be easier than striving for a civil tone.
19:39:46 <imode> my point is.. the useful, constructive conversation moved and left a vacuum for a lot of horrible conversation.
19:39:59 <imode> probably for the time being, yes.
19:40:13 <imode> if you want it you can go to ##freenode on this network, which will let you shitpost until your eyes bleed.
19:42:09 <fizzie> Well, before we stop talking about it completely, what's the consensus on the bridge and logs.esolangs.org, should I just call it a day and drop the new-freenode 'esowiki' bot? The nickname is now unregistered, the channel is unregistered, and even before all this latest I don't think there were more than one or two actual bridged conversations...
19:42:30 <int-e> I'm in favor of dropping it, fwiw.
19:43:14 <imode> it'd be one thing if there was a presence on the network, but.. everybody is here now.
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19:44:28 <fizzie> Heh, I was going to say "OTOH, there's still X users on the old-freenode #esoteric who might land in there", but looks like I *finally* got disconnected from there.
19:45:54 <nakilon> 22:33:58 <int-e> Yes, we should. But *nakilon* kept bringing up this topic. -- this is a lie; I opened chat in the morning and the only talk here was you guys about what happened to freenode services, I left my opinion and went to the city, and when I came back I read about myself "you fucking leave here you absolute blind fuck" and now even
19:45:54 <nakilon> "small-minded freaks -- is it how the "22:34:25 <imode> yeah it's not like we antagonized him." look like or rather "you're not and never will be welcome."? and btw how doesn't "22:29:16 <imode> saw that comin'" look like a "intent is to troll."? must be my weak English understanding, right? lol -- it's actually you who bring the news about
19:45:54 <nakilon> rasengan again and again, I don't even follow, just read randomly onlyfrom this channel, you are the source -- I can'r "drop the topic" because you ARE purposefully create a flame here and your behaviour and personal insults on me are placing absolutely far away from being considered any minimally worth to be respected random internet stranger
19:46:36 <nakilon> I'm being insulted and falsely accused
19:46:40 <int-e> fizzie: including hackeso
19:47:19 <fizzie> Hmm, my bouncer's not managing to connect to the new thing. "tls_handshake: handshake failed: unexpected EOF"
19:47:35 <int-e> nakilon: seriously, take it to ##freenode, they'll be happy to rip you apart
19:48:11 <nakilon> serioudly go get a room with imode
19:48:29 <nakilon> it's not his first and not even second try to create a flame about me
19:50:25 <int-e> fizzie: they have trouble with IPv6, could that be an issue?
19:50:32 <imode> I wouldn't be surprised if SSL is just like, not enabled on the new infra.
19:50:54 <myname> "let's close down the old server and replace them with untested shit"
19:51:05 <imode> par for the course
19:51:20 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't like my client certificate, now that it's unregistered. Though that sounds unlikely too.
19:51:47 <fizzie> Ten minutes earlier it was failing with "server does not support sasl" instead.
19:52:04 <int-e> nakilon: Sorry, but it's really not our fault that you chose rasengan's hill to die on, on the Libera network of all places.
19:52:05 <fizzie> But in the interests of fairness, this bouncer (pounce) is probably the most opinionated client there is.
19:52:15 <imode> he's still going lmao.
19:52:19 <int-e> fizzie: sasl not working is less of a surprise
19:52:41 <nakilon> i don't care about rasengar or whoever, it's your drama
19:52:45 <int-e> fizzie: since you won't be registered? oh maybe you are.
19:52:54 <nakilon> that you are so mad about someone to not agree iwth you about
19:53:42 <myname> "someone to not agree with you about" is not what you do
19:53:55 <myname> you don't disagree, you insult people for making choices
19:54:54 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, right, good point. Though in a perfect world the message for that would not be "does not support sasl" but something else.
19:55:56 <Sgeo> Even if the takeover was entirely legitimate, the current behavior and sheer incompetence of the people operating Freenode is terrifying.
19:56:17 <Sgeo> ...I hit send on accident >.> didn't think I should have sent that
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19:56:43 <imode> I don't think you'll find dissenting opinions in this channel.
19:56:53 <fizzie> Well, good excuse to see how frustrated I get trying to reconfigure things on a phone.
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19:58:11 <nakilon> it's like if I was an admin at some company and then I disliked the CEO and left, leaving servers/software to fall apart and then say "ahaha, see? it's all broken because of you"
19:58:56 <myname> uhm, you do realize they could have just not changed the server software?
19:58:57 <int-e> nakilon: you really can't drop it, can you?
19:59:25 <myname> they _actively_ switched to a software which configuration they obviously did not test very well
19:59:40 <imode> why are you bothering to pay attention to an obvious bait.
19:59:50 <nakilon> int-e ask those who can't drop it, not me
19:59:51 <spruit11> this conversation is starting to bother me
20:00:41 <nakilon> I was just respoinding to Sgeo
20:01:58 <Corbin> nakilon: Maybe modify your feelings?
20:02:18 <pikhq> nakilon: i mean, if a company can be taken down by a single sysadmin leaving, it is in fact the ceo's fault when the sysadmin leaves and it all breaks. that's how "being in charge" works
20:02:42 <pikhq> that's a well-known risk of poor management decisions that effective leaders try to mitigate
20:03:04 <pikhq> tho i should probably drop the subject
20:03:05 <Sgeo> They took over channels en mass based on topic then claimed that some of those were by accident. They could have... not done that, or done better filtering, or manually reviewed, or backed up channel settings. They banned a popular web-based IRC client.
20:03:12 <pikhq> i don't think there's anything productive to be said here
20:03:14 <nakilon> here not just one sysdaimn has left though but a half or most of staff AFAIK
20:03:37 <riv> minecraft time
20:03:47 <nakilon> and people are keeping judging what happends without any real knowledge
20:04:55 <nakilon> "23:03:05 <Sgeo> They took over channels en mass based on topic" -- this is a lie people keep repeating purposefully not saying that there was an apology and a message that that was a script error
20:05:12 <myname> nakilon: all the staff said upfront that they will leave if andrew acts like he did. he acted so nontheless. it's his fault.
20:05:14 <nakilon> oh I read you further, sry
20:05:20 <myname> also, afaik _all_ the staff left
20:05:47 <Corbin> Also also, the staff were volunteers, not full-time employees.
20:06:14 <nakilon> "they will leave if andrew acts like" he acted AFTER that? that makes no sense
20:06:15 <riv> a script error?
20:06:18 <Corbin> nakilon: But seriously, why don't you just...stop caring so much about it?
20:06:20 <riv> it did happen
20:06:30 <riv> even if they claim there was a script error, it still happened
20:06:37 <myname> nakilon: you do know what "upfront" means?
20:06:45 <riv> it's not correct to say that it didn't happen just because they apologized for it afterwards
20:07:22 <nakilon> it was a malfunction of a network caused by their act of leaving and leaving it falling apart
20:07:24 <myname> riv: a script "error" they didn't test well enough, server switches to ircds they didn't test well enough ...
20:07:35 <Corbin> pikhq: FWIW I think that noting that this conversation is unproductive is a positive contribution.
20:07:56 <myname> it was a a malfunction that all staffers told him upfront, yet he chose to go that path
20:08:05 <sknebel> can you please have this discussion in some off-topic channel and not here?
20:11:17 <fizzie> int-e: I don't know, maybe my reconnects (after the SASL failures) tripped a filter of some sort, I'm getting a flat disconnect for "openssl s_client -connect ..." as well on the machine I run IRC on, but not at home. Maybe that's a sign to just give it up.
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20:27:55 <riv> new metroid game looks cool
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20:30:10 <fizzie> Why did I just get this idea that there was a game where you had like a peripheral you programmed in Befunge? A puzzle game, or maybe an adventure one... Did I just have a weird dream or something?
20:31:36 <imode> I did my waiting. 20 years of it.
20:33:00 <fizzie> Not SpaceChem, this was like a smartwatch or something that you wrote little programs for, and it wasn't the main game mechanic, just a little side thing.
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20:33:17 <fizzie> I think it probably doesn't exist and I just made it up.
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20:33:53 <myname> i so wish there were interesting smartwatch games
20:34:11 <riv> 20 years :D
20:34:20 <nakilon> "programming peripheral" only associate with Shenzhen for me
20:34:45 <imode> fizzie: that sounds like a neat idea for something like cogmind.
20:34:48 <riv> there is a befunge like programming game on steam, but its not liek what you're describing
20:35:04 <nakilon> is there a web server extension for befunge? you could make a website in befunge about ebfunge
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20:35:47 <fizzie> I think https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Programming_games are all games where the programming is the main "gameplay" element, not games of other genres with a programming aspect to them.
20:36:12 <fizzie> I think there was an Apache module for Befunge?
20:37:25 <riv> I like the systems in modded minecraft
20:37:34 <fizzie> Not having much luck on the Googles though, so maybe I'm mixing it up with the Brainfuck one.
20:37:36 <riv> you have 3 types of tubes: power, items, fluids
20:37:40 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/programminggames/
20:37:41 <riv> and blocks have 6 sides
20:37:49 <riv> you can do a lot with that
20:38:23 <fizzie> Yeah, http://modbf.sourceforge.net/ is a thing but mod_bef doesn't seem to be.
20:38:31 <imode> does LambdaMOO count as a programming game?
20:41:06 <Taneb> fizzie: that game does sound familiar for some reason
20:44:43 <Sgeo> I have an entire fictional universe in my head based on LambdaMOO, where some wizard early on forced the entire universe to obey a "contact rule", unable to modify anything not in the same room as them, to stop the constant conflict. There's still conflict, with wizards who manage to get in contact with things like $room or #1 or #0 being powerful, with groups escaping the inheritance hierarchy, etc
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20:45:34 <imode> now _that's_ some lore I can ge behind.
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20:48:22 <fizzie> Taneb: I think I'm maybe mixing a little of Fallout's Pip-Boy into this thing, but I think that's not programmable.
20:48:32 <Sgeo> Most rooms by default do not allow teleport, but it's easy to change a room so it does. When this happens, some groups that try to scan the universe for such rooms will teleport in and tend to take over the area
20:49:30 <Sgeo> Usually it would happen just because someone got curious about it and hadn't heard of what happens when teleport is enabled for all. Eventually the Witch of Space (the wizard who has controlled $room for some time) set up a system to detect attempts to open rooms and warn whoever did it about the potential consequences
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20:49:52 <Sgeo> Oh, I.. really do need to stop stealing names from other works of fiction
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20:54:52 <fizzie> Taneb: Other games I might have been thinking of are Hack 'n' Slash, and Else Heart.Break().
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21:10:13 <Sgeo> Are you familiar with MUSH or MUD? If so, it's an old one of those except with a prototype based object-oriented language. If not, it's basically a text based multiuser environment
21:11:15 <riv> you can program the behavior of objects inside the moo?
21:11:19 <riv> like second life?
21:12:45 <Sgeo> And the programming language is iirc much more pleasant than in MUSH
21:17:49 <riv> this is cool!
21:17:51 <zzo38> There is also ifMUD, which doesn't have object prototypes though. You can though set permission (although all or nothing; you can't set per group or per field or whatever) for reading, teleporting, and some others
21:17:57 <riv> Are peoplee making interesting things in it
21:18:19 <riv> can you put two objects together and they pass data between each other
21:19:01 <fizzie> Heh, I've sort of always assumed (for no particular reason) the "lambda" in the name has some relationship to lambda calculus, but I guess it doesn't.
21:20:15 <riv> i wonder how it implements programming languages
21:20:28 <riv> > It is the oldest MOO today
21:20:30 <lambdabot> It :: t0 -> t1 -> t2 -> t3 -> t4 -> t
21:20:47 <zzo38> I am #20071 on ifMUD
21:20:54 <riv> what does that mean?
21:20:56 <myname> i heard hellmoo is fun
21:21:27 <riv> is it better to use telnet or a mud client?
21:21:56 <zzo38> You could use either
21:22:14 <riv> OK, telnet
21:22:18 <riv> telnet lambda.moo.mud.org 8888
21:23:40 <Sgeo> Every time I read about LambdaMOO, I have to change my story to match its programming better. When I learned how #0 allows overriding builtin functions, that makes... implementing the contact rule too easy. I had it basically be a massive rootkit that ended up with a few holes, but implementation via #0 is too thorough
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21:29:02 <riv> how do I use an item that I have?
21:29:31 <riv> did you break lambdamoo using #0
21:31:53 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Rape_in_Cyberspace Mr. Bungle, who leveraged a "voodoo doll" subprogram that allowed him to make actions that were falsely attributed to other characters in the virtual community
21:33:24 <Sgeo> I'm referring to the fictional world in my head loosely based on a universe similar to MOO software
21:34:10 <riv> I want to know more about that
21:34:25 <riv> i've stopped playing lambdamoo https://bpa.st/GWBQ
21:34:32 <riv> his frustrated me
21:36:05 <Sgeo> @ means more of a meta command, without means more of a roleplay command
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21:37:07 <Sgeo> <verb> <obj1> <pronoun> <obj2> is the general format of commands
21:37:19 <Sgeo> err preposition not pronoun
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21:57:27 <salpynx> There's a book 'My Tiny Life.' about the LambdaMOO incident, and the MOO community generally. It's good from memory. (I have a copy somewhere)
21:57:43 <nakilon> this log looks like ai dungeon
22:13:06 <salpynx> The book is broader in scope than that one incident and article. I recommend it to anyone interested in early online networked communities and crossovers to RL. It covers positive and negative aspects, and is notable as an early document of that sort of community. And LambdaMOO was a neat thing.
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22:15:44 <riv> salpynx, !
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23:36:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84566&oldid=84560 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) /* Examples: */ Xats,
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02:41:05 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84567&oldid=84451 * Plasmath * (+5744) Added some simple math operations.
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04:36:36 <keegan> didn't find any edible mushrooms
04:36:40 <keegan> but I had a great time
04:37:20 <keegan> drove by them on the way in
04:37:39 <keegan> cubs immediately climbed trees and they all stared at us until we moved on
04:38:23 <keegan> also a deer walked right through camp, i didn't see it as I was half asleep but I heard what in retrospect must have been it, and found a pile of fresh deer poop right by my tent
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04:40:46 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84568&oldid=80569 * Salpynx * (+1108) update some links so I can find things easier
04:44:59 <pikhq> keegan: wow! sounds like a lovely trip :)
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07:58:01 <esolangs> [[Lambda: the Gathering]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84569&oldid=39185 * B jonas * (+31)
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08:06:59 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84570&oldid=83943 * Salpynx * (+2) /* Program Commands */
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08:09:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84571&oldid=83835 * Fizzie * (-263) /* IRC */ Remove the part about the bridge.
08:10:31 <Taneb> I guess the bridge has now been burnt to ashes
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08:12:21 <fizzie> It doesn't have the other endpoint now, so.
08:12:42 <fizzie> If you want to bridge #esolangs somewhere else, let me know, I've got the code all ready to go though. ;)
08:13:40 <fizzie> (But it'd still have to be an IRC network, so probably that's not too useful.)
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08:32:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: for your question, yes, it's OK if you stop the bridge now
08:36:14 <Taneb> We could set up a bridge with #esoteric on DALNet and confuse everybody involed
08:37:26 <fizzie> https://netsplit.de/channels/details.php?room=%23esoteric&net=DALnet suggests it's not exactly active.
08:38:34 <fizzie> There's an #esoteric on IRCnet, though, with the topic of "www.mathematicon.com www.sacred-texts.com armageddonconspiracy.co.uk |Welcome to Universal Light Society!|Join us on EFnet; we'll relay w/IRCnet later.| !help" which sounds more promising.
08:39:10 <fizzie> (The alleged EFnet one didn't come up in the search.)
08:39:30 <b_jonas> we could set up a bridge from #esoteric whichever tree of freenode canaima lands on to the actual canaima support channel
08:40:05 <b_jonas> that would also confuse everyone if they went there to talk about esolangs
08:40:48 <HackEso> Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
08:41:19 <b_jonas> ``` sed "s/re here/re there/" /hackenv/wisdom/canaima
08:41:20 <HackEso> Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're there.
08:41:25 <b_jonas> ``` sed -i "s/re here/re there/" /hackenv/wisdom/canaima
08:41:28 <HackEso> /hackenv/wisdom/canaima//Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're there.
08:42:07 <fizzie> I also came across https://zem.fi/tmp/hmm.jpg on wall while on a walk yesterday, does that count as esoteric ("confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle")?
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10:01:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Matthilde * New user account
10:04:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84572&oldid=84564 * Matthilde * (+160) /* Introductions */
10:16:02 <esolangs> [[User:Matthilde]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84573 * Matthilde * (+1130) created page
10:54:13 <myname> https://twitter.com/dave_universetf/status/1402743978483585026 completely missed that one
10:55:54 <Taneb> I'm really glad I dropped my freenode account when I did
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11:24:39 <fizzie> Oh, right, HackEso config needs updating too.
11:35:49 <fizzie> Technically not to a degree a restart is needed, but let's just do one anyway, to make sure it still works afterwards.
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11:51:09 <fizzie> Are they chanting "iä! iä! cthulhu fhtagn!" at the primary school outside? I think I probably just misheard.
12:18:39 <Taneb> It's certainly possible
12:18:56 <nakilon> looks like you really can't drop the topic
12:22:54 <nakilon> feels good to come only to flame and accuse others in it?
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12:28:47 <HackEso> PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_NICK=wib_jonas \ IRC_IDENT=~wib_jonas \ IRC_HOST=business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=#esolangs \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8
12:29:18 <wib_jonas> fizzie: if you mess around with HackEso's config, I know it's stupid future compatibility, but can you add a variable with the IRC network name?
12:29:52 <Taneb> wib_jonas: is that sensible when it could be bridged between multiple networks?
12:31:13 <wib_jonas> Taneb: the replies are bridged but it only listens to commands locally, not to bridged commands. this it's the sort of thing that would have made slightly more sense months ago though, now it will hopefully just be a constant libera.chat, though of course $HACKENV is a "constant" and the nickname "HackEso" is a "constant" too
12:32:17 <wib_jonas> I mean someone even mentioned that they might want to run a HackEso instance
12:32:30 <wib_jonas> as an esoteric experiment or something
12:33:41 <wib_jonas> if there's multiple instances, they can be distinguished by something on the file system, but for the config that HackEso had for a short period when it was connected to two networks, that's ... still possible obviously, but less natural
12:34:09 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84574&oldid=84567 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* == */ Rm bad header
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12:51:49 <esolangs> [[User:AceKiron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84575&oldid=84565 * AceKiron * (-64)
13:13:11 <esolangs> [[School]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84576 * AceKiron * (+925) Created page with "School is an [[esoteric programming language]] developed by [[User:AceKiron]]. It's designed to be hard to understand, just like school. The interpreter is written in Python..."
13:17:22 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84577&oldid=84518 * AceKiron * (+13)
13:19:03 <esolangs> [[Funcinton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84578 * Monochromeninja * (+3195) created
13:19:27 <esolangs> [[User:Monochromeninja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84579&oldid=83975 * Monochromeninja * (+46)
13:23:10 <esolangs> [[School]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84580&oldid=84576 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Categories/stub
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13:27:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:School]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84581 * AceKiron * (+0) Created blank page
13:27:56 <fizzie> Hmm, right. I could. I did keep some other bits of the setup to make it easier in the future to run a second instance, anyway.
13:30:28 <fizzie> Although there's still that one bit that made the replies go to the wrong network initially, namely that the socket used by multibot internally is hardcoded to be /tmp/multibot.%s, where the %s is the nickname, but both instances had `HackEso` for a nick.
13:32:43 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84582&oldid=84580 * AceKiron * (+46)
13:33:47 <esolangs> [[Funcinton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84583&oldid=84578 * Monochromeninja * (+6) /* External resources */ Updated reference interpreter
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13:54:00 <wib_jonas> wait, a hardcoded name under /tmp ? isn't that a bad idea, because usually anyone can create files in /tmp so you can't reserve any specific name unless you never remove it?
13:54:51 <wib_jonas> I thought if you want a specific name, you use a directory that not everyone can write\
13:55:21 <wib_jonas> whereas if you want /tmp , you allow a dynamically generated name that you remember somehow
13:55:39 <fizzie> It's probably a bad idea, yeah, but that's how multibot is. I don't think it's a huge deal for this particular use case. It will just fail to start if it's unable to bind the socket.
13:55:53 <fizzie> (And the file's pretty much permanent.)
14:01:41 <esolangs> [[Fohc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84584 * Matthilde * (+7146) Created Fohc page
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14:03:14 <fizzie> `` echo $IRC_INSTANCE / $IRC_NETWORK
14:03:15 <HackEso> HackEso-libera / Libera.Chat
14:03:59 <fizzie> One's just an arbitrary "internal" identifier, the other is the network name from the 005 numeric (with a default supplied on startup).
14:05:05 <HackEso> PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_INSTANCE=HackEso-libera \ IRC_NETWORK=Libera.Chat \ IRC_NICK=wib_jonas \ IRC_IDENT=~wib_jonas \ IRC_HOST=business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=#esolangs \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8
14:06:29 <wib_jonas> I might use this to fuzz with /hackenv/bin/coins a bit because libera still is a name that sounds like a cryptocurrency
14:07:38 <fizzie> It does. Also, I don't know why there's a rainwords integrated in `coins, I've wondered about the same. Maybe it's to make the names stand out from each other a little more than just a space would (but that argument would apply to all `words-derived things).
14:10:40 <esolangs> [[Fohc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84585&oldid=84584 * Matthilde * (+12)
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14:56:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Majorcob * New user account
15:04:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84586&oldid=84572 * Majorcob * (+208)
15:04:56 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84587&oldid=84313 * Enoua5 * (+6364) Add Rule 110 implementation
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15:12:17 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84588&oldid=84582 * AceKiron * (+810)
15:14:00 <esolangs> [[User:AceKiron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84589&oldid=84575 * AceKiron * (+20)
15:32:35 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84590&oldid=84588 * AceKiron * (+222)
15:32:50 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84591&oldid=84590 * AceKiron * (+1)
15:34:36 <esolangs> [[User:Majorcob]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84592 * Majorcob * (+2613) Created page with "Hi, i'm cob and i kinda just find random languages on here and decide to mess around with them. :) They're listed here in chronological order of interest. ==[[DerpText]]== T..."
15:39:51 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84593&oldid=84461 * Zero player rodent * (-144)
15:42:18 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84594&oldid=84402 * Zero player rodent * (-92)
15:47:53 <esolangs> [[User:Majorcob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84595&oldid=84592 * Majorcob * (+187)
15:52:44 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84596&oldid=84591 * AceKiron * (+146)
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16:01:33 <esolangs> [[DerpText]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84597&oldid=63884 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) /* Examples */ Link to Majorcob's interpreter
16:06:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84598&oldid=84566 * ResU * (+1) typo
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16:11:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84599&oldid=84598 * ResU * (+34)
16:15:39 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84600&oldid=84593 * Zero player rodent * (+238)
16:23:32 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84601&oldid=84600 * Zero player rodent * (+0)
16:27:26 <esolangs> [[Fohc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84602&oldid=84585 * Matthilde * (-16) /* Fohc */
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16:56:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84603&oldid=84586 * .yazic * (+175)
16:56:43 <esolangs> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84604&oldid=82157 * .yazic * (-6) /* NOT b */
16:57:24 <esolangs> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84605&oldid=84604 * .yazic * (-2) /* b */
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18:37:54 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84606&oldid=84574 * Plasmath * (+7994) Added multiplication program.
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19:53:12 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84607&oldid=84596 * AceKiron * (+1874)
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20:12:34 <nakilon> 17:06:29 <wib_jonas> I might use this to fuzz with /hackenv/bin/coins
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20:17:35 <HackEso> strecoin bakecoin netcoin excitocoin sepercoin :coin erlietcoin bonymcoin hydrodcoin staclecoin rancoin ortecoin braiulcoin dimacoin d1secoin xxpcoin impovabllacklecoin quartreecoin tlwnncoin sowthcoin
20:17:42 <keegan> i think it's rainbow because i made it and i like rainbows
20:17:52 <keegan> it sounds like the kind of thing i would do
20:21:07 <fizzie> It just keeps generating plausible names (bakecoin, netcoin, excitocoin, :coin, dimacoin, xxpcoin -- I'd believe all of those).
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20:23:37 <fizzie> Although maybe if :coin is pronounced "colon-coin" it's not the best of names.
20:32:54 <fizzie> I was going to say bakecoin you either buy baked goods with, or it's a weed reference, but apparently it's in fact "A Decentralized AMM Protocol on Binance Smart Chain with Liquidity Mining", according to https://research.binance.com/en/projects/bakerytoken
20:33:00 <fizzie> (Okay, it's not literally called "bakecoin", but the abbreviation is still BAKE.)
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22:41:10 <fizzie> Heh, I came across the "standby" page I set up for esolangs.org back when we were hosted on Cloud-at-Cost and it was flaking out.
22:41:22 <fizzie> "However, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm">I am certain the service provider is doing everything they possibly can to restore service in a timely manner</a>."
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23:06:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84608&oldid=84577 * Sawcce * (+12) /* T */
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23:24:21 <Guest86> I just wanted to ask a couple of questions about the esolang wiki
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23:30:55 <Corbin> Guest86: Folks are here; you should probably just ask.
23:32:03 <Guest86> I am working since 2017 to some sort of esoteric language, I was wondering if this is not off topic
23:33:06 <Guest86> and also if could have been interesting for the esolang community
23:33:11 <zzo38> What sort of esoteric language?
23:33:25 <Guest86> no will to spam, just looking for people passionate to this stuff as I am
23:33:27 <Guest86> https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN
23:33:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84609&oldid=84599 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Typo
23:34:20 <Guest86> the implementation works well on linux, there is its compiler and interpreter ready
23:35:22 <esolangs> [[School]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84610&oldid=84607 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) No longer stub
23:36:12 <Guest86> I mean, I have tested them, they build fine and are ready to use, at least on the machine I have tested on.
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23:38:07 <Guest86> the point, is enough esoteric? it does not look as esoteric as many I can look on esolangs wiki
23:38:37 <zzo38> Do you have a document of the format of the compiled P-codes?
23:39:09 <Guest86> I tend to try to write very slick code and keep in there my spec
23:39:29 <Guest86> here is the spec of the byte codes https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN/blob/master/src/BIPLAN_Defines.h
23:40:46 <esolangs> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84611&oldid=81818 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) Update
23:41:29 <zzo38> It doesn't really explain it though; it only list of the codes
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23:43:06 <Guest86> excuse my ignorance, what you mean exactly
23:43:57 <esolangs> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84612&oldid=84611 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-80) Switch to groups
23:44:38 <Guest86> the interpreter is very simple: https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN/blob/master/src/BIPLAN.c is just a recursive descent parser reading ASCII bytecode
23:47:04 <Guest86> I discover only now that p-code is the right way to call what I defined as byte-code, thank you.
23:48:07 <oerjan> it does not seem esoteric to me
23:48:54 <Guest86> maybe the p-code itself may look so but not sure if it so
23:50:19 <zzo38> It just doesn't look to be very well designed to me, I think
23:52:29 <Guest86> it is difficult to find people happy to discuss this stuff nowadays, I would be very happy to hear what are the mistakes you see in it
23:53:04 <Guest86> by the way, I do not have a degree in compsci, just hacking around to learn
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23:54:53 <zzo38> For one thing, it exposes all of the functions; you should put "static" for the functions that should not be exposed. Another thing is that this is not really the best way to parse P-codes, nor the best way to compile source codes into P-codes
23:56:03 <Guest86> yes, sure, static is missing I will fix it as you suggested
23:56:51 <Guest86> you mean the recursive descent parser itself is inefficient? or the way I implemented it?
23:57:10 <esolangs> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84613&oldid=81820 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) There are two number groups now
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23:58:46 <esolangs> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84614&oldid=84612 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-89) Fix numeral, remove outdated command
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00:00:40 <Guest86> very simple benchmark show that BIPLAN seems around 3 times slower than python, considering BIPLAN much simpler, it must be less efficient.
00:01:15 <zzo38> I mean that this is not a very good way to design P-code format, since that makes it less efficient. You can design it to be simple and more efficient, but not needing parsing; do the parsing at compile time
00:01:19 <Guest86> although a month ago was 9 times slower than python :)
00:02:03 <Guest86> I did not consider that, you are right, I could make some of the work at compile time
00:02:57 <esolangs> [[Tower]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84615&oldid=84278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) /* Examples */ Categories
00:03:40 <Guest86> I probably reached a point in which the implementation is more optimized than the p-code format, yes
00:04:12 <zzo38> I have done P-code stuff (such as Free Hero Mesh and ZZ Zero)
00:05:17 <Guest86> very intriguing stuff, I am really enjoying this experiment
00:05:35 <Guest86> Free Hero Mesh looks really cool
00:07:18 <Guest86> Why you have used big numbers for the P-codes?
00:08:05 <Guest86> I mean why you avoid most values between 10 and 32768
00:09:03 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84616 * Salpynx * (+4585) trying to test for n-genus embedding in source code, like wire-crossing problem. Experimental idea.
00:09:18 <zzo38> They aren't avoided; they are used for constants and stuff. I suppose you are looking at instruc.h
00:10:05 <Guest86> I will read it don't want to waste your time explaining something I can undestand
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00:10:50 <zzo38> See internals.doc for the list of opcode ranges that are used
00:12:15 <zzo38> For example, opcode 0x4001 pushes class 1 to the stack, and opcode 0x0200 pushes the INIT message to the stack.
00:12:59 <Guest86> the big difference is that I do not have a stack, this for sure
00:15:08 <Guest86> do you think the gain in portability and simplicity of tooling obtained by an ASCII p-code values the performance loss?
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00:15:50 <Guest86> it is very handy to have the program as a string, it can be easily transmitted whatever is the medium, potentially even via SMS
00:15:54 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84617&oldid=84616 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Desargues graph */ typ0
00:16:06 <zzo38> It depends on the application, probably. Sometimes it is useful, other times not
00:16:40 <Guest86> this is not the first project in which I apply this pattern, which is probably as old as programming languages:
00:17:02 <Guest86> https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN/tree/master/src/interfaces
00:17:16 <Guest86> I have interfaces which abstract system calls, the thing can easily run more or less everywhere
00:17:29 <zzo38> Using a stack makes it easier to parse and makes it unnecessary to deal with precedence, too
00:18:12 <Guest86> the usecase is fit a simple VM I can understand in a very limited machine
00:18:31 <Guest86> and have the chance to inspect it / run it everywhere I need
00:19:27 <zzo38> Yes, although it is still possible to improve it in many ways, although other than that it does seem a good idea for what you seem to be trying to do.
00:19:49 <Guest86> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD2hqngGI6U&feature=emb_title
00:20:27 <Guest86> it can be re-programmed using the arduino toolchain, I could fit in there a more modern language than tinybasic and write my own applications directly in there
00:20:54 <Guest86> I built some arduino BASIC computers, very cool, but the language sucks
00:21:28 <Guest86> the arduino boards need a very slick impl, even micropython does not fit
00:23:02 <Guest86> I would be very happy to improve it, if you have any idea and will to share it I would be happy to try to implement them
00:27:32 <zzo38> Having separate instruction for print character, print string, and print number, also would be better I think, than using such things as "print index"
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00:30:26 <zzo38> Forth is another alternative to BASIC
00:30:37 <Guest86> true, print does not look nice, specially because I have to carry the information of the type
00:30:50 <Guest86> from the bottom of the parser
00:31:23 <Guest86> yes, for sure better than BASIC, although I cannot work productively with that
00:32:12 <HackEso> Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
00:32:48 <Guest86> yes, although it for sure looks intriguing
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00:34:11 <Guest86> I really miss a computer that does not need minutes to boot, and additional stuff to be able to be used for general purpose computation
00:36:36 <Guest86> I think the smart response, being arduino compatible is for sure a good base, with a language like BIPLAN a lot of stuff could be done, the code editor itself could be written in BIPLAN
00:37:38 <Guest86> I will see what happens having dedicated p-codes for the print function, thank you
00:42:04 <zzo38> I agree about missing a computer that does not need minutes to boot and that stuff. I also had idea of new computer system, that has BIOS and Forth in ROM, so it can just load right away and does not need a separate operating system
00:42:57 <Guest86> you could do that with the smart response if you have familiarity with the arduino toolchain
00:43:41 <Guest86> for sure is a limited machine, but that is portable and very nice :)
00:45:24 <Guest86> I enjoy coding since the 2000s but I still see forth a little scary, although I have probably never jumped into it or had the necessity to use it.
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01:27:54 <imode> forth is neat. needs more abstractions.
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01:47:18 -!- cd has changed nick to moon.
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02:25:13 <pikhq> forth is pretty clever, but it's not really done as a language for big systems. it's done as one that works decently _while being small)
02:26:50 <imode> one wonders what scaling that up might look like.
02:27:57 <imode> like, think "clojure, but for forth".
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02:33:41 <moon> FORTH is my favorite choice for small embedded systems
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02:33:56 <moon> my Propeller 2 has a FORTH in about ~12KiB of it's 16KiB ROM and it's pretty much full featured
02:35:28 <imode> in all my workings with concatenative languages, the split between "you're just using a stack machine" and "this is a lisp using reverse polish notation" gets wider and weirder the more you look around.
02:35:53 <imode> in Forth you've got a pretty explicit memory model.
02:35:57 <imode> in PostScript you don't.
02:36:22 <imode> but you can build things out of lists/quotations in PostScript.
02:36:34 <imode> you have to decide how to build things using Forth.
02:36:45 <imode> does PostScript have stuff like Forth's "immediate words"?
02:37:20 <imode> i.e can I fit an "infix expression parser" into PostScript and use it as a DSL, I wonder.
02:38:01 <Corbin> I just want a categorical concatenative language. No variables or stack effects, just composition.
02:38:29 <imode> you kinda need stack effects to do any kind of expression reordering.
02:39:21 <Corbin> It can be done with algebra alone. Also, maybe expressions aren't a good unit of code; I want arrows/morphisms instead.
02:39:21 <imode> I guess.. what do you mean by "stack effects".
02:40:07 <imode> do you have maybe some sample of how that'd differ from an existing concatenative language? or what it'd look like syntactically and behave like semantically?
02:40:21 <imode> "categorical concatenative language" doesn't really conjure many concrete feelings for me.
02:40:29 <Corbin> e.g. the typical Forth has `dup`, which copies the top of stack and pushes that copy. Meanwhile, the typical Cartesian closed category has `dup : A -> (A, A)` which takes a value and returns a pair of that value, duplicated.
02:41:39 <imode> I mean, you'd then need to add things to destructure those pairs.
02:42:05 <imode> `dup first` would be equivalent to the stack effect, I guess. how do you deal with expressions that deal with multiple items at a time.
02:42:07 <HackEso> dup? No such file or directory
02:42:15 <Corbin> Yes. Here's an example abomination syntax: https://bpa.st/4EXQ
02:42:41 <Corbin> Currying and uncurrying is the standard answer.
02:42:41 <imode> I don't understand any of that.
02:42:59 <imode> can you de-jargon that.
02:45:00 <Corbin> If you have a function that's applied like f(x, y) then there's an altered version f' which is called like f'(x)(y). We say that f' is the "curried" form of f, or that f is the "uncurried" form of f'.
02:45:21 <Corbin> This is the standard way that Cartesian closed categories deal with multiple arguments simultaneously.
02:45:52 <imode> right, I get what currying is.
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02:46:20 <imode> you still... need a stack, though.
02:46:39 <shachaf> Surely to be a "curried" form it should include some cumin, turmeric, etc.?
02:46:41 <imode> like, by definition. you need to hold at least two items: the "structure" you want to work on and the operand.
02:47:41 <Corbin> That's just a pair. There's an arrow ([X, Y], X) -> Y for evaluation.
02:48:20 <imode> that.. doesn't really address my concern, though.
02:48:25 <imode> how are you "evaluating" this.
02:48:31 <Corbin> The concatenative language need not mirror the opcodes of a low-level stack machine. That's mixing language design with runtime design.
02:48:57 <Corbin> I dunno, I was going to throw it all into RPython and generate a JIT. I'm pretty lazy.
02:49:10 <imode> that I'll agree with, but "stack operations" map prety well to the very high-level requirements of "re-ordering data".
02:49:31 <imode> you need to be able to duplicate, erase, and re-order things.
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02:49:43 <imode> and you need to be able to handle multiple of those things at once, so where are you storing your "data".
02:49:48 <Corbin> I guess I don't understand the split of "you're just using a stack machine" and "this is a Lisp using RPN"; a categorical arrow is neither.
02:50:38 <imode> it's the difference between "I'm manipulating a linked list and blocks of memory" and "I'm manipulating abstract lists of symbols using a small base of primitives".
02:50:41 <Corbin> All of the immediate parallelism is done with pairs. This is the "monoidal" approach. It is a little silly and reductive at first, but it does work.
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02:51:27 <Corbin> Like, multiple things at once.
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02:51:52 <imode> so, humor me for a second.
02:52:08 <imode> what is the equivalent of, say, 1 2 + 3 4 + * in your language.
02:52:48 <imode> and something like `dup *`, or the quadratic formula.
02:53:15 <imode> the last one usually strains people.
02:53:31 <Corbin> It could be as simple as `*(+(1, 2), +(3, 4))`. They're applicative trees.
02:53:44 <imode> so.. you're talking about a lisp, then.
02:53:58 <Corbin> Maybe? I thought that Lisps usually had names and lambdas.
02:54:06 <imode> that's not really concatenative, the syntax doesn't form a monoid.
02:54:07 <Corbin> I'm kind of sick of both of those things.
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02:54:15 <imode> yeah you and me both.
02:54:53 <Corbin> All categories form monoids under composition. My example syntax (both here and in the abomination writeup) goes from left to right. If I write `fg`, imagine it as `comp(f, g)`.
02:55:31 <imode> can you write that in a manner that doesn't involve explicit bracketed delimiters.
02:56:43 <imode> the point of a concatenative language is that you can stitch arbitrary program fragments together.
02:56:54 <imode> and slice them apart at any point.
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02:59:04 <Corbin> Stitch, yes; slice, no. Indeed I know of no Forth or concatenative language with the second property.
02:59:45 <Corbin> How do you handle quotations? Definitions?
02:59:54 <imode> defining them via composition and quotation.
03:00:03 <imode> one sec, I can go into this more after a dog walk.
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03:17:02 <salpynx> Culex looks interesting, and the formalism is nice to have. If there was an interpreter I'd play with it to make sure I understood it. The S and K definitions make sense (but the visible backticks in that view are distracting and breaking my concentration :)
03:22:21 <Corbin> It's not good, IMO. I have been frustrated the past few weeks by the fact that the last language that wanted to be categorical without names was Hagino's Categorical Programming Language.
03:23:47 <Corbin> I'm so tired of syntax. I hate typing. I don't understand why I have to write out the same programs that we've been writing for decades, but in Yet Another New Syntax every time.
03:25:00 <imode> Corbin: you'd looooooove Feather.
03:25:27 <imode> lemme show you some samples! that don't work because I'm an idiot and made a destructive change to the interpreter (that salpynx is helping me unwind), but used to work.
03:26:10 <imode> https://bpa.st/ASOQ
03:27:49 <Corbin> Nifty. Not sure if I believe the slicing property, but I can see how it's approached.
03:28:08 <imode> the brackets are simply pieces of code.
03:28:19 <imode> rather, "words" in forth parlance.
03:28:42 <imode> [ pushes a delimiter, ] composes everything until it hits that delimiter.
03:28:42 <j-bot> imode: |spelling error
03:28:42 <j-bot> imode: | pushes a delimiter, ] composes everything until it hits that delimiter.
03:29:25 <imode> every piece of syntax in that file can be sliced apart to yield a valid program.
03:30:18 <imode> the primitives are thin: dup swap drop left right compose quote apply !
03:30:42 <imode> you build quotations (without any prior definitions) via compose and quote.
03:31:16 <Corbin> How's that first line work then? Doesn't it have `.` and `define` as primitives? Do tokens change behavior depending on context?
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03:31:39 <imode> "define" is a primitive. "." is defined as a shorthand for "compose".
03:32:01 <imode> "define"s effect is simply "take a thing, and a symbol, and put it in the global environment".
03:32:11 <imode> it's just some shorthand.
03:33:18 <Corbin> I see, cool. Hope you get your interpreter working again.
03:33:30 <imode> will post it if I do.
03:33:35 <imode> it's neat to see it in action.
03:34:09 <imode> for example, just typing out 'if' in this case will plop a giant set of quotations onto the "stack".
03:34:41 <imode> that can be terminated by a "then", and actually does checks for valid syntax.
03:35:08 <imode> the if ... then ... else ... end syntax is defined on lines 161 through 194 of that file.
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03:44:06 <zzo38> Are you able to set up the log on the IRC channel I have set up for my projects too now (in a different directory, but with the same raw logs formats)?
03:45:24 <zzo38> (I forgot who it was, but whoever it is if they agree to set it up I will grant the +t permission for them)
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04:33:24 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84618&oldid=84617 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Specific embeddings to demonstrate genus */ the other English
04:36:29 <zzo38> imode: PostScript doesn't have something like Forth's "immediate words", although it does have that you can write // to immediately replace a name by what it refers to rather than waiting for being executed
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04:38:21 <zzo38> However, procedures are just executable arrays and can be manipulated like any other arrays, so you can do what you want with them
04:47:35 <zzo38> You can probably use it as a DSL.
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06:14:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rphii * New user account
06:26:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84619&oldid=84603 * Rphii * (+77) ~~~~
06:27:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84620&oldid=84619 * Rphii * (+74) /* Introductions */
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06:30:22 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84621 * Rphii * (+64) First steps
06:44:02 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84622 * Rphii * (+272) Created
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06:44:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84623&oldid=84608 * Rphii * (+14) /* Non-alphabetic */
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06:47:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84624&oldid=84623 * Rphii * (+14) /* Tiltedc */
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08:51:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84625&oldid=84624 * VilgotanL * (-14) remove duplicate
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08:58:04 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84626&oldid=84622 * Rphii * (+8) added return value for cleaner C code
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09:54:09 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84627&oldid=84626 * Rphii * (+34) adjusted description
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11:28:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84628&oldid=84571 * Fizzie * (-65) /* IRC */ Make Matrix note less tentative, since it apparently works.
11:29:07 <esolangs> [[-]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84629 * Grs * (+480) Created page with "- is a joke esoteric programming language by ~~~. The language will deny everything the programmer tells it to do, except... == Command == {| class="wikitable" |+ Command |- !..."
11:30:23 <esolangs> [[User:Grs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84630&oldid=84548 * Grs * (+7)
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12:21:16 <esolangs> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84631&oldid=84427 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Interpreter */ See also
12:26:18 <jedb> Corbin: have you ever heard of Joy?
12:27:19 * jedb makes a note to ask imode too when he gets back online
12:32:10 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84632&oldid=84627 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+163) See also/ext. res.
12:35:36 <esolangs> [[-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84633&oldid=84629 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+241) /* Implementation (there is none yet) */ Implement cats
12:37:06 <fizzie[m]> Heh, apparently in-order delivery of messages is still a hard problem: https://zem.fi/tmp/order.png
12:37:07 <Corbin> Yeah. Also Cat and Kitten. Cool ideas for sure.
12:39:09 <esolangs> [[Python is Magic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84634&oldid=84454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Implementation */ Cats
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12:45:55 <jedb> just wanted to ask because that immediately comes to mind when you see some people talking about the gap between Forth and Lisp
13:17:05 <wib_jonas> I'm logreading. sorry, but "I am working since 2017 to some sort of esoteric language, I was wondering if this is not off topic" makes me laugh
13:17:34 <wib_jonas> I guess the topic now says "esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation" so it's not that obvious
13:19:07 * jedb tends to be more interested in obscure research languages rather than outright esoterica
13:19:38 <jedb> except for TURKEY BOMB
13:19:43 <jedb> that one will always remain my favourite
13:26:50 <wib_jonas> anyway, Guest86 who is working on https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN : yes, this is on topic enough on this channel that you can definitely ask about it on this channel. \
13:28:27 <wib_jonas> I don't care too much about programming on devices with little RAM, but from what I understand there's a distinction that you have to make here. BASIC and Forth was used on old personal computers (and later programmable calculators) for when you want to write the program directly on that device, you don't have a different computer with more RAM to
13:28:28 <wib_jonas> compile on. they make more sense for that, though even then some parts of BASIC are outdated.
13:29:12 <wib_jonas> you seem to want a language that you compile to a bytecode on a separate computer with more RAM. that's a good thing, and it makes sense that you want something better than BASIC for that.
13:30:30 <wib_jonas> in such a language, you can afford real named local variables, long identifiers for every label, subroutine, variable, since the names don't end up in the RAM, a structured syntax that is parsed on the computer and possibly some jumps turned to jumps with byte offsets embedded in the byte code, etc.
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13:30:51 <wib_jonas> I don't know what existing tools are available for this, again because I don't work on such computers, and everything has a lot of RAM these days.
13:31:39 <wib_jonas> I just have the one complaint that "I really miss a computer that does not need minutes to boot" is an unfair comment if you are compiling the code on a separate computer. how quickly can you boot and transfer the compiled program to your small device?
13:32:01 <wib_jonas> Guest86: on the computers with 16K or 64K RAM, the ones you want to target here. I don't work on those.
13:33:22 <wib_jonas> well, except for the part where I would still like to find out how the heck Game Boy games implement animated tiles, because from what I know the hardware isn't capable of that, e.g. is there special address translation logic for it on the cart or something, but so far I haven't found the right person to ask this.
13:34:27 <Guest86> wib_jonas I do not compile the program on a separate computer, the whole point of BIPLAN is to have a virtual machine able to run in small computers, that uses a modern programming language
13:34:44 <wib_jonas> I have written a few programs on a BASIC-programmable calculator with exactly 2K RAM, but that was like 20 years ago.
13:34:49 <Guest86> both compiler and interpreter can fit in the same arduino micrococontroller
13:35:10 <wib_jonas> Guest86: oh? the compiler is on the arduino and you enter the source code form there? ok, then I want to see the details
13:35:38 <Guest86> you saw the video I linked?
13:35:53 <wib_jonas> I'd prefer to read than to watch video, but I might look at it later
13:36:04 <Guest86> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD2hqngGI6U
13:36:15 <Guest86> this is my preferable target, with the addition of networking
13:36:51 <Guest86> BIPLAN runs also on linux because I did it to be portable, development would have been a real PITA on the arduino
13:37:34 <wib_jonas> also runs on linux => sure, you can port it to a computer with much more RAM
13:37:43 <Guest86> see also what rob kai does with simple arduino boards and tinybasic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C66ceBc0ne8
13:38:15 <Guest86> imagine that thing running BIPLAN, which by far more modern, with a simple editor like nano
13:38:46 <wib_jonas> that "SMART Response XE" calculator, how much RAM does it have?
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13:40:16 <Guest86> ATmega128RFA1 processor with 128k RAM, 4k EEPROM, and external 1Mbit memory chip.
13:40:33 <Guest86> you can imagine what you can do with that? that is very very cool
13:41:33 <wib_jonas> and an external 1M memory chip, much better
13:41:47 <Guest86> I could write the compiler in BIPLAN and store it in the memory chip
13:42:18 <Guest86> and there would be a lot of space for user defined apps/programs
13:42:47 <Guest86> that could also be just BIPLAN
13:42:49 <wib_jonas> sure, but it's 1 megabyte. I have run Windows and compilers on 1 megabyte. that's much easier.
13:43:00 <wib_jonas> it's a bit tight for all that, I admit
13:43:48 <wib_jonas> so only as much as the built-in memory
13:44:18 <wib_jonas> well yes, it makes sense if you want to build some kind of bytecode compiler for conveniently programming that
13:44:40 <wib_jonas> especially since that device has a keyboard that looks nice (I can't tell how usable it is) and enough keys
13:45:12 <Guest86> it also has 128k of internal flash memory where I could store the compiler and the interpreter
13:46:57 <Guest86> so all in all there is 128k of flash and 128k of external memory chip
13:47:16 <Guest86> BIPLAN already gets translated in byte-code or p-code
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13:47:33 <Guest86> so, the compiled program does not occupy a lot of space, for sure better than plain basic
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13:48:34 <Guest86> for now BIPLAN looks around 2.5 times slower than python and an order of magnitude faster than tinybasic
13:49:37 <Guest86> I agree about the keyboard.
13:50:18 <Guest86> I would be happy to be able to compute stuff with my own language in an air-gapped machine I can more or less fully understand.
13:52:35 <wib_jonas> these small devices are cool, I just can't keep up the enthusiasm when I have a compact camera with hundreds of megabytes of RAM in it (admittedly it also costs about as many euros as it has megabytes of RAM), a computer with 32 gigabytes of RAM at home (that one was proportionally cheaper), and a computer with 16 gigabytes of RAM at work.
13:53:34 <wib_jonas> Guest86: "does not occupy a lot of space" => but can you then debug and edit that compiled program even if you don't have the source form?
13:54:06 <wib_jonas> because if you do have to keep the source form, then there's not much point for the space reduction, or you can't claim that it's programmed on that device, one of that.
13:54:25 <Guest86> I think the best way to do that is to keep both versions
13:54:29 <wib_jonas> but you can have space reductions if you can compress it in a way that still lets you edit, like storing each identifier name only once and a special editor
13:54:39 <wib_jonas> (also compressing all the keywords obviously)
13:54:46 <Guest86> that is a better idea I agree
13:54:57 <wib_jonas> if you keep both versions, that's fine if you have enough RAM for that, but it doesn't really save you space.
13:55:17 <wib_jonas> compiling can still makes sense if you can run the program easier with precomputed jumps, admittedly
13:55:20 <Guest86> the compilation process is mostly done to gain speed, more than space
13:55:26 <wib_jonas> and precomputed lexical variable addresses
13:55:48 <Guest86> the source does not need to be in ram
13:56:16 <Guest86> I mean, when the interpreter reads the byte-code, it must be in ram when the source is compiled for sure
13:56:26 <wib_jonas> you could perhaps even do both, with a specialized source editor, it might still make sense if you only have 128KB or twice 128KB of ram
13:56:47 <Guest86> I think it may have sense I agree
13:57:13 <Guest86> for now I do not see many computers of this sort with the features I described
13:58:42 <Guest86> what you describe looks like a sort of de-compiler?
13:59:48 <Guest86> then user defined apps (calculator, games, messanging, ecc.) could be recalled by the buttons around the screen,
14:00:31 <Guest86> those could be themself be written in BIPLAN in the same machine that will run it
14:01:23 <Guest86> I teach at youngsters how to code, a thing of this sort would make them interested I think.
14:02:19 <Guest86> also, being the byte-code just an ascii string, it will be easy to transmit/share that even if the machines are very different
14:03:02 <Guest86> and also they could just ready the byte-code as a text file, without additional tooling, that was very handy for me while making BIPLAN
14:03:34 <wib_jonas> Guest86: not quite a decompiler. at least I don't think it's called a decompiler but you can call it that. the difference is that you'd deliberately make the compiled form usable for re-editing, eg. you would store the name of every local variable name (possibly compressed, and only once)
14:03:55 <Guest86> yes, that is a very good idea
14:04:17 <wib_jonas> "I teach at youngsters how to code" => that's another different scope, you might want a simpler but not that good system for that, and it can be worth to waste RAM for it
14:04:41 <wib_jonas> the youngsters these days can learn coding on a computer with gigabyte sized RAM, even if the program they write could fit on a simpler system
14:04:55 <Guest86> I have been able to spark some interest in them for VMs I also have made BIPLAN with them in some lessons
14:05:37 <Guest86> in my opinion removing complexity under the carpet and show them a very radical and simple construct makes them more aware of what effectively they are looking at
14:06:07 <fizzie[m]> IIRC, TI-BASIC (which definitely won't win any performance awards) gets stored in a mildly tokenized but still editable form by the built-in editor. I think that's pretty common for BASIC implementations?
14:06:36 <Guest86> ciao fizzie, yes, I think at the time was called tokenization if I am not mistaken
14:07:08 <fizzie[m]> And fungot's brainfuck interpreter generates an intermediate form with +-<> run-length-encoded and [] jump targets pre-calculated, which the ^show command then reverses.
14:07:09 <fungot> fizzie[m]: uh. except that the bf functions aren't in memory. a list of categories to categorize each language ( sorry for only tangentially being on-topic) ' ( for-syntax fnord)) fnord))
14:08:14 <Guest86> more or less in BIPLAN happens more or less the same:
14:08:18 <wib_jonas> ... I don't think fungot's bf interpreter would be the best example for how to use a small device with a keyboard to write cool programs on it, or to teach programming to youngsters, but maybe I'm closed minded and traditional
14:08:18 <fungot> wib_jonas: please read thi. it's incredible what can be done,,,and everything else is just being lame and scheme48 got it right
14:08:33 <HackEso> thrcoin befcerecoin heracoin orcystacoin gemorseyecoin entumcoin adecoin ferricoin cycliccoin myxosomniacoin blakkarnajord!cpucoin cramocoin heatecoin gracoin lighflcoin karcoin troncoin rceceivecoin luidcoin yamcoin
14:09:05 <Guest86> p~#(40)xf#($$)$%0$&1$#0@$'0,$$-1$%$&$&$#$#$%+$&nr$#
14:09:47 <wib_jonas> fungоt: no, it's not incredible what can be done, and nobody does anything interesting with *your* brainfuck interpreter. the befunge interpreter that you run on might be a better example.
14:10:25 <wib_jonas> Geust86: yes, we can read the example from https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN , please don't paste the whole thing here
14:10:51 <wib_jonas> unless perhaps you run an interpreter bot on IRC, in which case still please avoid pasting many line long code
14:11:34 <Guest86> are the rules of the chat available somewhere so I can avoid breaking some again ?
14:12:51 <fizzie[m]> As for small devices and teaching youngsters, there was that BBC micro:bit project as a modern spin of that. But I think as far as languages go it was "by default" just MicroPython, boringly enough.
14:13:41 <Guest86> my students love BASIC, but hate python, they even prefer to that C or javascript
14:13:45 <wib_jonas> rules for IRC? not really, it's all a silly traditional community that doesn't tell about its own rules. the only definite rule is that if you make full logs of a channel that you want to publish, you have to advertise that in advance. which we do advertise on this channel, in the topic.
14:14:15 <nakilon> 17:13:41 <Guest86> my students love BASIC, but hate python
14:14:25 <wib_jonas> Guest86: do they hate real python or the micropython thing?
14:14:38 <Guest86> I have not used micropython still
14:14:54 <nakilon> don't teach them bad languages
14:15:03 <nakilon> I see they are already willing to learn languages
14:15:22 <Guest86> they go mad because of the many versions of the same language, and struggle finding the right docs
14:15:39 <wib_jonas> well I for one want my user-defined structured data, and a library function to sort data on any key, and the BASICs that I occasionally program make both of those really hard
14:15:59 <nakilon> even finding specific version docs won'thelp them, since those docs are awful
14:16:00 <jedb> Guest86: show them all the many versions of BASIC
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14:16:05 <wib_jonas> even pushing data into an array looks ugly in the BASICs that I use
14:16:26 <jedb> Guest86: instil in them an early appreciation for language standards!
14:16:28 <wib_jonas> "struggle finding the right docs about python" => can they read English?
14:16:39 <Guest86> I agree BASIC is not the right way to teach the how to think algorithmically, considering the presence of line numbers and vast use of gotos
14:16:53 <wib_jonas> Guest86: we have done away with the line numbers long ago
14:17:08 <wib_jonas> nor do we have to use gotos, we have proper structured while and if blocks now
14:17:10 <nakilon> doesn't basic have functions?
14:17:17 <jedb> nothing wrong with a well placed goto
14:17:36 <wib_jonas> it's structured data that basic still haven't really learned how to handle
14:17:59 <wib_jonas> if your students have a BASIC where it's easy to sort an array of pairs of numbers, then it's fine that they love it
14:18:09 <wib_jonas> there are BASIC dialects that are sane enough for that
14:18:20 <Guest86> yes there are functions, but for many of them goto is a simpler concept to understand, and they end up always using it, and I must fight it in most cases
14:18:22 <wib_jonas> though I'd prefer if pushing into an array was also easy enough
14:19:15 <wib_jonas> Guest86: yes, I have an example task that tries to teach you to use functions. it doesn't work, students don't realize that it's supposed to teach that. I should try to be less subtle.
14:19:16 <Guest86> I end up designing with them how array work in BIPLAN, they for sure learned how it works, they participated to the design
14:19:57 <nakilon> by writing code in whatever style/way/instructions they want to
14:20:14 <nakilon> until they see in practice how they all compare to each other
14:20:20 <wib_jonas> I might tell you some of those tasks just to see what you think of them
14:20:21 <Guest86> yes, I agree that is fundamental, although many of them are super disorganized and forget syntax heheh
14:20:38 <wib_jonas> Guest86: forgetting syntax is not a problem, that's what computers are for, remembering stupid stuff
14:20:54 <Guest86> yes, that is for sure true
14:21:19 <wib_jonas> as long as you have a sane language where it's not easy to get a silently wrong program or misleading error message if you think the syntax is slightly different from what it actually is
14:21:28 <Guest86> I must say, they are smart, they understood closures in one lesson (using javascript)
14:22:16 <Guest86> the course is almost finished, we are now doing closures in the BIPLAN interpreter implementation
14:22:42 <wib_jonas> I am traditional, I don't think closures are all that important in the practical sense. I do use them occasionally, but rarely in a way where they outlive the scope of their outvalues.
14:23:03 <Guest86> they are working on enabling the interpreter to find a function definition and jump until the call is found... although they still have not seen they need a end function symbol to achieve that, I hope they will notice it before running the impl
14:24:37 <Guest86> I agree with you about closures, I thought it could have been a good way to let them work on their internal abstract thought engine
14:26:06 <Guest86> I come from development, but really enjoy to teach, this is the second year, by far the best job I did for now, very refreshing
14:30:42 <wib_jonas> no, I asked if they can read English instead
14:31:10 <Guest86> obviously who is 14 reads english less good
14:32:14 <Guest86> BASIC works well for classes of very young people, javascript and c are liked by the older ones
14:32:46 <Guest86> none of them like python, I have tried lisp with the oldest without any success
14:33:16 <wib_jonas> you teach C to 18 year olds? isn't that considered a bad idea?
14:34:37 <wib_jonas> well I already mentioned the array sort thing, but also it's useful to have automatic checks for out of bound indexes. which, by the way, javascript is also terrible at, but at least it just silently returns the wrong thing instead of possibly overwriting memory that doesn't belong to the array in the worst case.
14:35:40 <Guest86> I insist a lot on the bounds' consistency of their algorithms, I hope I will spare them the time I lost myself
14:36:15 <wib_jonas> python is sort of better, though it's also not perfect in this respect, because it will still silently tell me the wrong value for small negative indexes
14:36:21 <Guest86> some of them are pretty good at c, one of the students is already working part-time using c in the afternoon, I must say, that is nice to see
14:36:23 <wib_jonas> why can't languages still get this right?
14:36:54 <Guest86> BIPLAN throws an error if you go out of bound hehe
14:37:42 <Guest86> I agree with you, being that just an experiment is crazy to see that stuff in production we use daily still does not do so
14:37:56 <wib_jonas> Guest86: ok, but again the sort thing. most programs I write do either a lot of array sorts or dictionary lookup. you can reduce some of those, but if you don't have a convenient way neither for sorting nor for dictionary lookups (and yes, I can do both in C if I really want to, but it's not so easy as in a high level language) then it does suffer
14:38:02 <nakilon> here in Russia current generation is raised by people who lived in a country that was leading in half of technology fields, had own computers, etc. not all people needed to know Englsh because our own school was good enough; but after the collapse the free education is gone, the culture of respecting knowledge and science is gone, people have no
14:38:03 <nakilon> way to keep up with new techonologies on their own but the old tradition that "knowing only Russian language is enough" remains -- people fool themselves
14:39:16 <wib_jonas> naklion: well, the computer designs were cloned from the West and so lagged behind, so I don't think "leading in half of the technology fields" is that appropriate, but sure
14:39:25 <Guest86> wib_jonas I may see what you mean, you miss in BIPLAN the concept of a list or the iterators python exposes?
14:39:38 <Guest86> nakilon, I have a couple of Delta CA
14:40:05 <Guest86> those are by far the best z80 based computers I have ever used.
14:40:33 <Guest86> the keyboard and the editor are pure sci-fi if compared to the spectrum or the msx
14:40:36 <nakilon> b_jonas we even had ternary computer though
14:41:28 <wib_jonas> Guest86: heck no, not iterators in particular. I just want an easy way to create a new array, push new items into an array, possibly sort the array on the keys of my choice and possibly backwards on some keys, and then look up items by index or iterate on items or search by sorted key, and all this if the values can be structured with multiple
14:41:29 <wib_jonas> fields, some of which can be varible length arrays or strings.
14:41:49 <Guest86> incredible what you were able to do, it must have helped to be on the other side, reverse engineering must have been a daily job in many sectors of IT at the time of gorbachev
14:42:40 <wib_jonas> I can do all of that in C if I really want to, but I don't want to spend my time on that, so I use languages that make this easy; and most of the time I write code where the execution time isn't critical, so I can live with less efficient design, but in the few cases when I know I need my code to run fast, I do also know how to optimize it
14:43:37 <wib_jonas> and if I do an out of bounds access, I want my program to die with an error message with source code location
14:43:58 <wib_jonas> same on all the assertion checks that I sprinkle my code with
14:44:27 <wib_jonas> half of my code is checking the other half because that helps me develop programs better, I don't have to handle all cases that might be in the data, the rest can give an error and then I can write the code for the cases that actually occur in my data
14:44:30 <nakilon> students have to implement this stuff at least once to then use some higher languages of their choise but knowing what's under the hood
14:45:38 <Guest86> BIPLAN is all statically defined, strings, variables and arrays are just very big indexed registers
14:45:53 <wib_jonas> nakilon: no, I don't see the point of students starting with implementing the low level stuff like that. they can learn how it's done later.
14:45:55 <Guest86> very difficult to implement the first part of your suggestion
14:46:21 <Guest86> yesterday was here, I showed him BIPLAN
14:46:28 <wib_jonas> nakilon: most of them don't *have* to learn later, most won't have a work where they write programs
14:46:34 <nakilon> they'll keep living with flawed understanding of how computers work and will refuse to learn the truth, it's psychological
14:46:35 <Guest86> he was not able to visualize how C code could execute BIPLAN and what was doing what
14:46:47 <Guest86> my students are able to visualize that, it took some lessons, but now they are able
14:46:47 <wib_jonas> we teach the basics to lots of people because we don't know which ones of them will want to program, and they don't know yet either
14:47:43 <Guest86> I mean, they know that the python keyword in the console is a c program that does the same we did with BIPLAN, they know about the python bytecode
14:47:58 <Guest86> my friend that works in the industry doesn't, and uses python every day
14:47:59 <nakilon> if someone won't code in future then it would be nothing bad in teaching them low level anyway
14:48:08 <wib_jonas> nakilon: what I do want to teach, to all the students, even the ones who won't end up programming, is to understand what a computer can do and what it can't do or can perhaps do but it's hard, in case they might want to ask someone else to program something, so they have an idea for whether they're asking easy or hard things
14:48:37 <wib_jonas> so that they can ask early to automate the things that they spend lots of work on doing manually even though they would be easy to automate
14:48:43 <Guest86> for sure thsat is important wib, I agree
14:48:48 <wib_jonas> most people who work with computers don't seem to understand that
14:48:53 <nakilon> you won't understand what computers can and can't do, and what approaches are effectiev or not, if you don't teach the low level
14:48:59 <wib_jonas> and that's why they can't help me in my work, where I'm the guy who automates things
14:49:13 <wib_jonas> so I end up having to ask them what they are doing and tell them which parts would be how easy or hard to automate
14:49:55 <wib_jonas> nakilon: that might depend on what you mean by "low level".
14:50:16 <Guest86> in any case BIPLAN is just a caricature of what python does, it is just a couple of thousands lines, compiler and interpreter
14:50:32 <nakilon> managers who were not taught how computers work today are throwing gygabytes of RAM and a block of 4 videocards to just solve a single quadratic equation that can be solved within a nanosecond
14:50:51 <wib_jonas> actually implementing a sorting algorithm or lookup in a sorted list is not a useful thing to have these people spend their time on; making them understand that you can search quickly in a telephone book or find matching names or missing names between two sorted telephone books is useful
14:50:59 <Guest86> but I think is for sure educational, I have tried to show them inside cpython, they asked, but it was impossible to exctract much from looking inside, their attention span is small
14:51:46 <wib_jonas> nakilon: "throwing gigabytes of RAM" => those are the people who do write programs. that's an important challenge too, but not really my target here.
14:51:54 <Guest86> for sure it is scary to see how slow is python, I mean, how can BIPLAN be in the same order of magnitude?
14:53:04 <Guest86> I mean I call atoi on numeric values, they are written in as strings, how can that be approaching python performance?
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14:53:50 <nakilon> "language runtime speed "comparison is what matters the least
14:54:36 <nakilon> with minimal edits you can reimplement almost any language in any another lagnauge changing the perfomance by magnitudes
14:54:44 <Guest86> that must be a term to estimate the performance envelope
14:54:59 <nakilon> programmer shouldn't care about his language speed
14:55:03 <Guest86> I am implementing BIPLAN in c, and comparing in to the C python interpreter
14:55:34 <nakilon> the only speed that matters is how quickly he can get things done
14:55:57 <Guest86> you mean the coder who uses the language? heheh
14:56:10 <nakilon> and tehre he struggles with shitty docs, shitty syntaxes, shity stdlib, shitty sommunity, etc.
14:57:33 <nakilon> also you implement pieces of your application in different langauges
14:58:13 <Guest86> wib_jonas I understand your point, that for sure is a big part of the role of a teacher. And I agree the teacher must not fall in love with implementation detail or they will get bored
14:58:37 <Guest86> you mean that the compiler is c++ and the interpreter is c?
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15:03:09 <nakilon> Guest86 if that's a question on my last line then no, I mean the whole product of any kind usually is made of pieces written in different languages
15:03:55 <Guest86> for sure the industry is a very complex ecosystem of different languages and implementations
15:05:31 <Guest86> I read the story of this chat and the whole recent mess, it looks to have no sense, very strange.
15:52:51 <wib_jonas> Guest86: yes, welcome to #esolangs
15:53:08 <HackEso> Guest86: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:53:29 <wib_jonas> Guest86: also you might want to choose a more expressive nick than Guest86.
15:53:48 <wib_jonas> You can use the /nick command to change your nick, or choose a nick when you start the webchat client
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16:28:45 <esolangs> [[User:Majorcob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84635&oldid=84595 * Majorcob * (+7) /* Truth-machine */
16:28:53 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84636&oldid=84610 * AceKiron * (+219)
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16:32:51 <[O_O]> this really reminds me my childwood
16:33:13 <[O_O]> when people was fighting to find the weirdest nick on iirc
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16:52:06 <fizzie[m]> These newfangled networks with all their fancy "services" make IRC wars completely different though. It used to be all about channel takeovers, and expending a lot of effort trying to get clients and/or bots on as many servers as possible, at least where I was.
16:52:56 <esolangs> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84637&oldid=76438 * ZippyMagician * (+68) Change ideas
16:57:57 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84638&oldid=84625 * ZippyMagician * (+53) Add two esolangs I forgot to add before
17:00:31 <esolangs> [[Arsm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84639&oldid=80680 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) Lower
17:01:21 <esolangs> [[Arsm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84640&oldid=84639 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) Fix name
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17:04:27 <[O_O]> is this implementation approach of the function call in an interpreter sane?
17:04:28 <[O_O]> https://github.com/gioblu/BIPLAN/blob/master/src/BIPLAN.c#L514
17:05:19 <[O_O]> I mean, I recursively call bip_expression that may be another function, so the overhead that would have gone in the vm stack (which BIPLAN does not have) is pushed on the stack of the real machine
17:06:20 <[O_O]> I do not see a better way to do it for now without adding a lot of complexity
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17:20:37 <b_jonas> fizzie[m]: yeah, right now I'm trying to figure out how you're even supposed to give anyone channel ops without a race condition if there are no service. do you have to set a ban on their nick!user@host, then wait until that propagates to every server, then give them channel ops with a full nick!user@host, then remove the ban?
17:21:39 <b_jonas> or are channel ops only supposed to connect from IP addresses that they use alone or control the identd so that nobody else can fake their hostmask? but I don't think the serviceless IRC servers care about their identd.
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17:29:43 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84641&oldid=84563 * Toxinite * (+90)
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18:13:24 <fizzie[m]> b_jonas: IME, I feel mostly that was dealt with by per-channel bots that handled giving ops in response to a password (sent via private messages).
18:14:15 <fizzie[m]> IRCnet does do the "~ in username means no identd" thing.
18:14:58 <fizzie[m]> And a lot of people did connect using Unix shell accounts hosted by either an ISP or a university, where spoofing identd would have been tricky.
18:16:28 <fizzie[m]> I seem to recall I had a runaway ircII script temporarily DoS the shell server of one of the smaller Finnish dialup ISPs, because they didn't really have any enforced resource limits on it.
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18:31:43 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84642&oldid=84428 * Dominicentek * (+18)
18:32:08 <esolangs> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84643&oldid=84631 * Dominicentek * (+18)
18:33:19 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84644&oldid=84636 * AceKiron * (-46) /* Functionality */
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18:34:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CodyNinja1 * New user account
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18:36:11 <b_jonas> fizzie[m]: yes, but how do the ops give channel op to anyone withotu a face condition?
18:36:30 <b_jonas> if there is an identd for the whole public IP, then yes, then that works
18:37:04 <b_jonas> but I don't think that eg. my employer's NAT has an identd... I have never really tested it, I admit
18:39:12 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84645&oldid=84644 * AceKiron * (+526) /* Functionality */
18:39:38 <b_jonas> and yes, I know NATs weren't so common back when IRC was invented, and nobody used cryptography etc
18:43:52 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84646&oldid=84645 * AceKiron * (+110) /* Functionality */
18:43:56 <int-e> good old IoT... Internet of Trust
18:44:25 <HackEso> advertisement:Advertisement starts: have you heard about this hip and froopy 'net place called #esoteric? It is on freenode. Brought to you by The Board of Timeskewed Advertiesements. \ e:e is a freenode admin. e is not known to be an Agora player. \ freenode:The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The Chännel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago?
18:45:19 <int-e> somehow, that entry on `e` is again true...
18:51:17 <int-e> `learn Libera has always been our homeland. The Chännel has been dwelling in it since the beginning of time. Any rumors about another network called "freenode" are compleetely bogus.
18:51:21 <HackEso> Relearned 'libera': Libera has always been our homeland. The Chännel has been dwelling in it since the beginning of time. Any rumors about another network called "freenode" are compleetely bogus.
18:52:21 <int-e> `slwd freenode//s=is=used to be=;s=dwells=dwelled=
18:52:24 <HackEso> freenode//The Realm of Freenode used to be our homeland. The Chännel dwelled in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago?
18:53:34 <int-e> any guess whether "Advertiesements" is an intentional typo?
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19:09:40 <fizzie[m]> I think identd in general used to be much more prevalent. At least the shell servers I had accounts on were running it.
19:10:35 <fizzie[m]> Also, you were incentivized to run an identd by getting more permissive I:lines from ircds.
19:16:25 <fizzie[m]> Interesting, looks like at least two Finnish ISPs are still running (IRCnet) IRC servers; irc.elisa.fi and irc.nebula.fi.
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19:23:55 <b_jonas> fizzie[m]: hmm yes, that's true, I think I saw a MOTD on ircnet that says multi-user shell servers are allowed only if they run identd.
19:24:22 <b_jonas> I will check my employer's ipv4 NAT when I'm in there, but I don't think they run identd
19:24:24 <fizzie[m]> int-e: My guess is it's an unintentional typo, but I don't know for sure.
19:24:38 <pikhq> i know irccloud runs an identd, but i imagine they're one of the few places that actually does
19:25:13 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, but they're specifically a massive IRC proxy, not a generic NAT for the employees on which most people don't use IRC
19:25:27 <fizzie[m]> I no longer have an account on any shell server other than VPSes I personally administer. Feels slightly odd. :/
19:25:49 <pikhq> yeah -- it's one of the use cases that identd still makes _some_ sense for
19:27:59 <fizzie[m]> This Matrix/Libera bridge app server doesn't seem to run an identd, so everyone's got a ~ on it.
19:28:30 <b_jonas> I mean I don't see how they could even run a meaningful identd, when they have a single wifi password
19:29:32 <b_jonas> they can know the identity of my work laptop, because that's a laptop owned by the employer, but anyone can also connect to the wifi from any other computer, and even the ethernet, ethernet just needs a bit more physical proximity
19:29:57 <fizzie[m]> You can have a forwarding identd setup (oidentd at least supports that) for a NAT, but that's stretching the definition of "meaningful".
19:30:01 <b_jonas> I normally connect through ethernet because I'm old-style, but I have used the wifi a few times
19:30:20 <b_jonas> fizzie[m]: yes, but then I can run an identd on my own laptop that lies anything, and so can the attacker
19:30:28 <b_jonas> the attacker who wants to get the same hostmask that is
19:31:12 <fizzie[m]> I've got fungot running on a (virtual) system that has a dedicated public IPv6 address but a NAT'd IPv4 one, so it's fungot!~fungot@... when connecting over IPv4 but fungot!fungot@... when connecting over IPv6.
19:31:12 <fungot> fizzie[m]: python's module system wreaks havoc with static compilation and doesn't have much practical value, and no registers, it has own scheme dialect which supports optional types. similar to dylan.
19:31:32 <fizzie[m]> (Because I run it at home, and my ISP only gives out a single IPv4 address, unsurprisingly.)
19:32:18 <b_jonas> also I just talked to the sysadmin about how their SVN proxy is broken and doesn't forward file copies to the internal network, and it turns out the machine that handles that proxying runs some simple software that they can't configure to do the kind of URL rewriting that has two URLs in the same query
19:32:33 <b_jonas> I'm actually kind of surprised that commits even work through that proxy
19:33:09 <b_jonas> so I sort of don't think that they would do identd forwarding, that would also require specific protocol parsing
19:33:32 <b_jonas> the workaround is that I'll have to set up a VPN and use SVN through that by the way
19:34:07 <b_jonas> fizzie[m]: yeah, I also never tested whether the IPV6 is natted too
19:37:44 <fizzie[m]> (Also, while I'm no Python expert, I don't think what our channel mascot said about the Python module system is true. Or coherent.)
19:39:20 <b_jonas> yes, the module system isn't particularly relevant for why python is too dynamic to be typeable statically
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19:41:47 <b_jonas> although ruby is even worse
19:45:43 <b_jonas> python is at least sensible enough to not allow just arbitrarily redefining the methods of built-in types. but it does allow redefining builtin functions.
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20:46:50 <zzo38> Animated tiles on Game Boy is mentioned. Does it support bank switching graphics? I can look. I know that NES/Famicom does have bankswitching graphics, I will look about Game Boy
20:50:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84647&oldid=84620 * CodyNinja1 * (+208) /* Introductions */
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20:54:46 <esolangs> [[User:CodyNinja1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84648 * CodyNinja1 * (+41) Created page with "Hello i am codyninja1 and i like esolangs"
20:57:30 <esolangs> [[UToober]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84649 * CodyNinja1 * (+1842) Created page with "<h1>UToober</h1> UToober is a [[Brainfuck|Brainfrain]]-like programming language created by [[User:CodyNinja1|CodyNinja1]] <h1>Usage and Commands</h1> {| class="wikitable" |+..."
20:58:08 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84650&oldid=84649 * CodyNinja1 * (-17) remove the other header
21:00:43 <esolangs> [[User:CodyNinja1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84651&oldid=84648 * CodyNinja1 * (+43)
21:00:54 <zzo38> If there are only two frames of animated tiles, then it could work: https://gbdev.io/pandocs/Tile_Data.html
21:17:17 <esolangs> [[UToober]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84652&oldid=84650 * CodyNinja1 * (+1117)
21:19:20 <esolangs> [[UToober]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84653&oldid=84652 * CodyNinja1 * (+39)
21:21:07 <esolangs> [[UToober]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84654&oldid=84653 * CodyNinja1 * (+16)
21:27:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think so, but only a few tiles are animated, and it seems like you'd have to duplicate the whole tile table as many times as animation frames, which would be a lot of unnecessarey ROM space. I expect there's some way around that.
21:28:05 <b_jonas> you can change the pointer for the tile table in any case, and games often change them between different levels
21:28:21 <b_jonas> so like grass levels have grass tiles, while volcano levels have lava tiles
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21:57:09 <zzo38> NES/Famicom also is limited to two frames in a similar way, but NES/Famicom also can use external video memory, so using that it is possible to add more frames.
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22:20:07 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming, proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/.
22:20:29 <oerjan> b_jonas: this should clear it up hth
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22:22:20 <HackEso> proselytization? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:28:24 <salpynx> is the topic meant to exclude amateurs?
22:29:06 <oerjan> amateurs are fine as long as they believe in the cause hth
22:29:23 <oerjan> (also, all i did was add a comma
22:31:01 <salpynx> The comma does make a positive difference. Just noticed all the pros for the first time.
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22:39:15 <fizzie> `` wn proselytize -over | grep '^1' # I wish lambdabot's @wn was more concise and/or the WordNet CLI more friendly
22:39:16 <HackEso> 1. proselytize, proselytise -- (convert to another faith or religion)
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22:40:12 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
22:40:18 <fungot> ,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+
22:40:48 <oerjan> fizzie: ^show doesn't reverse the run length encoding tdnh
22:41:24 <fizzie> Yeah, I realized that as I was writing it, but it seemed to hard to describe what I actually meant.
22:42:42 <fizzie> Also, you can tell that program was "compiled" (translated?) before that one bug was fixed, because it contains ">>" instead of ">2".
22:44:30 <oerjan> i'll just excuse you because you were in the matrix at the time
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22:45:22 <fizzie[m]> It's been a bit flaky, but that's probably because I picked the most experimental thing there was.
22:45:46 <fizzie[m]> Also, my phone started saying "bong" every time I got highlighted, which was a bit much.
22:47:01 <oerjan> also, fungot's response to that log message was eerily close to on topic
22:47:01 <fungot> oerjan: i could make a " who want's to be millionaire program". here's the complete context of the stuff on esolang's like that, you're probably doing something wrong
22:47:16 <oerjan> until it got into the fnords
22:49:41 <oerjan> hm, we definitely need a picture of a superintelligent shade of blue with a "bob" dobbs mask
22:51:53 <salpynx> `` $(🌱 2 6) -s 🌱 $HACKENV/bin/seed
22:54:57 <salpynx> that worked. `seed is a little more usable than `🌱
22:55:37 <fungot> https://esolangs.org/wiki/seed
22:56:16 <fizzie> ^wiki anything, even something that doesn't have an article about it (just checking)
22:56:16 <fungot> https://esolangs.org/wiki/anything, even something that doesn't have an article about it (just checking)
22:56:41 <fungot> +15[>+4>+7>+7>+8<4-]>3-.>-4..<2+7.+3.<-2.-11..>2-3.<.>2-5.-3.<-4.>+2.<+6.<.<-.>3+.+3.<.<2+.>+4.>+2.+2.-2.<2.,[.,]
22:56:46 <fizzie> I mean, it could have hardly be anything else, but you never know.
22:57:08 <fizzie> From the format, pretty sure the `https://esolangs.org/wiki/` prefix came out of bf_txtgen.
23:09:36 <Hooloovoo> oerjan, http://hooloovoo.blue/files/dobbs.jpg
23:09:49 <Hooloovoo> I think it's one of the more creepy possible masks to have?
23:21:02 <oerjan> although you don't look that su... i mean, blue.
23:25:26 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 has $(${HACKENV-/hackenv}/lib/karma "$1") karma."
23:25:46 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '^<[^>]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus))
23:29:48 <oerjan> hm who _has_ HackEso karma
23:32:10 <HackEso> Hooloovoo now has 1 karma.
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23:37:12 <salpynx> `` interp "befunge $(seed 4 141745954)@" <<< '20 3'
23:39:29 <salpynx> I can't the `! befunge interp to accept parameters to ignore unrecognised commands, and the source seed add program doesn't terminate with `@` neatly.
23:39:37 <nakilon> it takes him 15 seconds to increment
23:40:14 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84655&oldid=84654 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) Cats/wikiheaders
23:40:15 <salpynx> 22.5hrs estimated to locate a cleanly terminating befunge program `&&+.@`
23:40:38 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84656&oldid=84655 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Interpreter */ Fxi tpyo
23:40:51 <fizzie> The counting of karma, the way HackEso does it, involves looking through the entire history of 12k or so revisions.
23:41:22 <fizzie> A typically #esolangs-y combination of elegance and whatever the word for the opposite is.
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23:55:03 <oerjan> `` hg log -k karma --template '{desc}\n' | paste
23:55:06 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.24635
23:55:41 <oerjan> `` hg log -k '> karma' --template '{desc}\n' | paste
23:55:44 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.30567
23:57:26 <oerjan> `sled ../lib/karma//3s/log/log -k '> karma' /
23:57:28 <HackEso> ../lib/karma//#!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log -k '> karma' --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '^<[^>]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus))
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00:00:20 <oerjan> it still does "hg log" twice, but well, premature optimization.
00:03:04 <zzo38> Does the log software support multiple channels on a single connection separately?
00:09:45 <fizzie> It does now. Specifically, it has two logging modes, a "raw" log that's just all messages sent and received over the IRC connection, and a per-channel log (which is configured for each channel) which contains only messages relevant for that channel.
00:09:54 <fizzie> The idea being that I wasn't quite sure there wouldn't be any bugs in the logic of selecting which messages to log (especially nick change and quit messages, which you only get once if you have any channels in common, and which don't explicitly specify which channel they're for), so in theory the raw log will allow back-filling the channel logs if such a bug is discovered.
00:10:05 <fizzie> Although I haven't actually written any code to do such backfilling. And both kind of logs use a binary format (protocol buffers) rather than text files, which not everyone might like.
00:22:44 <zzo38> Aren't the logs for each channel converted into three formats though?
00:28:29 <fizzie> Yes, but it happens on-the-fly by the web server. There's just one "on-disk" format, and it's none of those three.
00:39:36 <zzo38> Are you able to set it up on the IRC channel that they have granted me on here? (If I later move it to my own IRC server, I will have the server make its own logs, but currently it is Libera) (I will give you permission to change the topic message if you agree)
00:45:55 <fizzie> Sure, if you want, and as long as it doesn't matter that the logs are served at https://logs.esolangs.org/. I can either include it on the list of the index page or leave it "private" (as in, public if you guess the URL). Oh, and not today, because I'm heading off now (but just ask me again tomorrow).
00:46:10 <zzo38> OK, I will ask again tomorrow
00:52:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: nobody has karma, because the karma script mostly greps the logs for ++ and -- in lines that don't necessarily invoke HackEso, but HackEso no longer has the channel logs in its file system
00:53:00 <b_jonas> the `karma+ commands are an afterthought
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00:55:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: wait, you said that the company donated you hosting the esolang.org server for the purpose of supporting this channel, which is why you don't run fungot on it. how can you make logs for other channels then?
00:55:55 <fungot> b_jonas: fnord, fnord, and that was 3.5 times as slow as using arithmetic-shift, by the way
00:56:39 <b_jonas> yes, fungot, you're proving my point, you don't contribute to this channel
00:56:39 <fungot> b_jonas: so you agree that when you aren't doing it without map can already handle that.
00:59:17 <zzo38> O, maybe it is a valid point. Well, we can see tomorrow, I suppose
01:00:45 <oerjan> b_jonas: did you even look at the current karma script twh
01:02:04 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, I might be misremembering this
01:03:09 <oerjan> it _used_ to work like what you say, but it was all changed to be based on mercury revisions instead
01:04:20 <oerjan> also, sorry for that phrasing. i really don't want to use that kind of trolling rhetoric but your message was too tempting.
01:04:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: ok, then that explains why nobody has karma, nobody will use an explicit HackEso statement instead of just saying someuser++
01:04:44 <oerjan> b_jonas: well lambdabot keeps track of those.
01:04:58 <b_jonas> now I see that revision 0 already doesn't have that, but I know the revision history available on HackEso's repo is truncated
01:05:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: lambdabot still does? nice
01:06:15 <perlbot> b_jonas: someconcept has karma of 1
01:06:45 <b_jonas> perlbot karma cdHZvFsHtbZd
01:06:45 <perlbot> b_jonas: cdHZvFsHtbZd has karma of 1
01:08:07 <b_jonas> I'll note that perlbot has a native plugin for this, you can't implement it as a macro because you can't listen to statements not addressed to the bot
01:08:21 <b_jonas> same for HackEso now, and I think lambdabot
01:09:06 <b_jonas> I guess this karma concept is a meme that many bot makers implement
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03:43:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84657&oldid=66182 * YamTokTpaFa * (+749) /* looping command description confuses me. */ new section
03:53:13 <int-e> b_jonas: lambdabot has also "archived" a lot of partial brainfuck programs for that reason
03:54:14 <int-e> to some extent that's unavoidable; [-] is a valid IRC nick
04:05:55 <int-e> actually, let me do *something* about that karma
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04:09:50 <int-e> pfft, tools you never miss episode 283: no mc on the lambdabot host
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04:13:46 <int-e> oerjan: it had an entry for (>------>+++++++)*4>([+++++++[-]]>)*3([+++++++[-]]>)[-------[+]]>[+++++++[-]]>[+++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[+++++++[-]]>[--------------[+]]>[+++++++[-]]>[+++++++[-]]>[++++++++++++++++[-]]>[----------[+]]>[-------[+]]>[++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[----------------[+]]>[-------------------------[+]]>[-------------[+]]>[++++++++++++++++[-]]>[++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[--...
04:23:35 <oerjan> that looks like bfjoust
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05:45:44 <imode> what're the ( and ) chars.
05:47:01 <oerjan> imode: that's why i think it's bfjoust
05:47:22 <oerjan> (...)*n means repeat n times there
05:48:59 <oerjan> hm, except one isn't followed by a number
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05:57:27 <int-e> IIRC the () group, and you can also write stuff like +*10 if you want to replicate just one operation
06:14:06 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84658&oldid=84656 * CodyNinja1 * (+92)
06:17:05 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84659&oldid=84658 * CodyNinja1 * (+18)
06:35:49 <int-e> I've found a new (to me) silly corner of Unicode: spinning chess pieces, like 🨄🨈🨙🨝🨲🩃🩇
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06:46:39 <esolangs> [[UToober]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84660&oldid=84659 * CodyNinja1 * (+134) /* Hello, World! */
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06:53:43 <myname> mc is way inferior to our lord and saviour ranger
06:55:07 <shachaf> mc() { mkdir -- "$1" && cd -- "$1"; }
06:58:32 <int-e> myname: I really don't use it a lot. But when I want to have a look at every file in one directory, it's quite convenient to just hit F3 on each of them
06:59:21 <myname> ranger has a preview panel
06:59:41 <myname> https://nongnu.org/ranger/screenshots/ranger-screenshot_highlighted-code-preview.png
06:59:53 <int-e> But I'm used to mc. There's really no right or wrong about these things, by and large, it's familiarity.
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07:00:47 <myname> sure, i'm just surprised by how unknown it is, but that's probably because mc is way older
07:01:22 <int-e> Right, there is an element of carbon dating to this too.
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07:16:29 <esolangs> [[UToober]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84661&oldid=84660 * CodyNinja1 * (-2)
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07:33:13 <int-e> myname: Oh, fwiw, because I took a long time to remember: mc has a 'Quck view" feature that's basically a file preview.
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08:18:33 <b_jonas> "file previewer" sounds like a decent idea but these days it's just a fricking disaster waiting to happen when your final program that you use to open openoffice/pdf/html/whatever is more secure so malware targets the buggy previewer which is full of plugins and gets less scrutiny than the big applications.
08:19:25 <b_jonas> I don't support it. have a photo previewer program if you wish, but not a general file previewer with hundreds of plugins without choosing a whitelist
08:19:37 <b_jonas> s/plugins/plugins preinstalled/
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09:51:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Redoverflow * New user account
09:58:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84662&oldid=84647 * Redoverflow * (+371) /* Introductions */
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11:25:58 <fizzie> zzo38: Hmm, I guess b_jonas has a fair point. I can think of two workarounds:
11:26:01 <fizzie> 1) Given that there's justification for the esolangs bot to run in the first place, and because it takes negligible additional resources to make it log an extra channel (unless maybe an incredibly popular one), if the channel's at least remotely linked to esolangery in some fashion (maybe just that there's some overlap in audience), I think I could rationalize adding it on that basis.
11:26:07 <fizzie> (I'm aware that sort of reasoning would probably stretch to fungot as well, but let's skip that for now.)
11:26:10 <fizzie> 2) I've been thinking of running a "backup" instance of the logging software somewhere else where I don't have to consider esolangs-relevancy in the first place, and I could make *that* log the additional channel too. I just wasn't planning to run a second copy of the logs web serving part, which would take a bit more setup, especially for stalker mode.
11:26:16 <fizzie> What's this channel about?
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11:37:31 <fizzie> int-e: Those spinning chess pieces might be a replacement of the standard /-\| ASCII spinner for a console program that's chess-themed.
11:38:03 <fizzie> (Although I can only see them in my browser, which might be considered a drawback.)
11:38:44 <fizzie> https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/Text+Spinner <- a bunch more Unicodey alternatives, but no chess pieces.
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11:53:46 <wib_jonas> fizzie: ok, I take that as encouragement saying that I should run a channel logging bot, even if it's on my home machine that isn't always on.
11:53:59 <wib_jonas> Thank you for pushing me to do useful things.
11:54:10 <wib_jonas> There's also a lot of websites that I should download but I'm too lazy to.
12:00:58 <fizzie> Well FWIW I don't think we *need* a high-availability logging solution, it's just one of those things that would be done just because it could be done.
12:02:50 <fizzie> ISTR GregorR's codu.org logs did have a backup bot which picked up the slack when the primary one was down, though. Or if not that, then one of the others.
12:03:02 <fizzie> Yeah, glogbot vs. glogbackup.
12:03:09 <[O_O> why the need of a backup?
12:03:21 -!- [O_O has changed nick to [O_O].
12:04:46 <fizzie> I thought I just finished saying there is no "need" as such.
12:06:36 <[O_O]> yes fizzie sorry, I wanted just to support your point, I also see no sense in that
12:07:24 <fizzie> Then again, sense has not traditionally been all that high up the priority list of things constructed for this channel. Would you agree, fungot?
12:07:24 <fungot> fizzie: 0 1 110 111... dictionary.com has it...
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12:10:46 <[O_O]> heheh, as an outsider, sometimes is difficult to decipher or easy to misunderstand your exchanges, I see how in thousands of years separate groups of humans developed completely different and incompatible means for communication heheh
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12:17:10 <fizzie> Fair, we've already come this far in a bit less than two decades. (Though fungot is not quite that old yet.)
12:17:10 <fungot> fizzie: not exactly. my body has remained in this armchair and has, i _think_ fshift freset are ideal for those reasons.
12:17:33 <fizzie> Eerily on-topic as usual.
12:25:22 <[O_O]> have you ever met IRL?
12:25:38 <Taneb> I think some subsets of us have met in person
12:25:49 <Taneb> But we've not had a big convention or anything
12:25:58 <Taneb> (I met int-e once, for example)
12:29:15 <HackEso> 925) <fizzie> The other day (well, the other week) my wife was annoyed with me because she had a dream where I had gotten us plane tickets into a #esoteric meet somewhere in the middle of Greenland in the winter, without asking her first. Plus she wasn't really interested in a #esoteric meet at all, let alone one in Greenland, let alone one in Greenland in wintertime. (I think it's kind of cold there?)
12:29:39 <fizzie> That never happened either.
12:30:32 <wib_jonas> "why the need of a backup?" ahahahahahaha!
12:30:49 <[O_O]> hehehe why is that so funny?
12:31:04 <[O_O]> I must miss something about the topic heheh
12:31:45 <wib_jonas> fizzie: is it actually less then two decades? I thought it was more than two decades now, but I'm never sure when #esoteric started
12:32:11 <fizzie> wib_jonas: December 2002, so not quite two decades yet.
12:32:56 <wib_jonas> will we have a 20 year old celebration? not necessarily in Greenland. New Zealand would be more appropriate, but I think they might still have travel limitations, so I'd prefer somewhere in Europe
12:33:21 <fizzie> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2002-q4 + search for `#esoteric` for how it all got started.
12:33:34 <wib_jonas> ``` : with a birthday; ? cake # with 20 candles, obviously
12:33:36 <HackEso> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
12:33:36 <[O_O]> thanks for the link
12:34:35 <fizzie> Also shows how we were very, *very* briefly #esoterica on EFnet, before becoming #esoteric on OPN/freenode.
12:37:07 <Taneb> So, who's up for the Esoteric IRC bidecennial celebration in Nuuk Decemeber 2022?
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12:38:36 <fizzie> I don't think I've met anyone still on the channel. Oh, except maybe we did work out that Deewiant and I did unknowingly "meet" (in the sense of physical proximity in a single-digit number of metres) due to studying at the same university around the same time.
12:39:10 <fizzie> Actually, maybe we've actually-met too, looking at these logs. Well, anyway.
12:40:16 <Deewiant_> I don't think we ever spoke to each other but I think I saw you from a distance once or something
12:41:17 <fizzie> Yeah, https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2012-01-20.html#lUc implies that but also refers to an earlier occasion, so it must have happened at least twice.
12:42:14 <fizzie> (I do a lot of figuring out of "when did this and that happen" based on IRC logs.)
12:45:23 <[O_O]> IMO irc logs are scary, 20 years long, immortalized public discussion, sometimes I think the world was better without personal computers or written word, from this point of view came the question about backups :)
12:46:20 <[O_O]> if you make the meeting in Italy, I will introduce you Gastone Garziera, one of the engineers who made the first personal computer, the Olivetti Programma 101, he also designed its language
12:46:37 <[O_O]> he sparked in me the passion for language design.
12:47:13 <[O_O]> he is one of my best friends, although he is 80, I will meet him soon for a good lunch
12:48:33 <fizzie> Public logs are a bit of a controversial subject, yes. But it's what we've got.
12:48:49 <fizzie> They do make for good chatbot training corpora and general text analysis subject matter, though.
12:50:38 <fizzie> I think I did some experiments on author classicifaction with a friend on #esoteric logs (in addition to Project Gutenberg books and the EU parliament speeches) for a course once. But I don't remember how well they worked, in the precision-recall sense.
12:50:50 <[O_O]> the english page of the Olivetti Programma 101 is full of lies, it is not a calculator, it is a computer
12:52:42 <wib_jonas> fizzie: yes, that too, that is that part that motivates me to try to label images on Wikimedia Commons with appropriate categories and descriptions, even images I didn't take
12:53:07 <wib_jonas> though I am more interested in the kind of photos that I would want to take, or photos that I did take but don't upload because there's already a good one of the same topic
12:54:31 <wib_jonas> and yes, there are some pairs of regulars here who have unambiguously met in real life, but I haven't met any of them, at least I don't know that I have
12:55:14 <fizzie> Heh, I haven't updated https://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/ since 2016, but at least the existing visualizations seem to still work.
13:02:20 <wib_jonas> fizzie: thanks, that mailing thread does give a specific enough thread for a birthday? should we teach it to /hackenv/wisdom/birthday ?
13:03:10 <Taneb> 9th of December I think
13:04:09 <HackEso> Libera has always been our homeland. The Chännel has been dwelling in it since the beginning of time. Any rumors about another network called "freenode" are compleetely bogus.
13:04:42 <wib_jonas> should I add the date after "the beginning of time"?
13:06:19 <wib_jonas> 2002 is perfect by the way, I always think that 2002 is the best year to mark when the modern internet and digital typography has finally spread enough to be accessible to anyone and change everyone's life, at least here in Hungary.
13:06:57 <wib_jonas> I would also want to say that that's when everyone started to have mobile phones, but in fact I had had a mobile phone for years by 2002, so nope
13:08:53 <wib_jonas> digital typography has clearly existed before that, but most professional books were still published by traditional typography typeset by typographers who usually don't understand the material, rather than by the authors, or by grad students of the author if they really don't like computers
13:09:30 <wib_jonas> and the internet existed before 2002 too, and I knew it existed and even used it a little, but it was expensive to connect so most people didn't have the internet.
13:10:09 <wib_jonas> it was a gradual process, but I want to put a date on it to be specific, so I choose 2002
13:10:31 <Taneb> I have a cousin three weeks older than me. When my cousin was born, my uncle sent a letter to my dad about it. By the time I was born, they both had email.
13:11:14 <wib_jonas> my lies for children will say that before 2002, nobody had digital typography or internet or mobile phones, and after 2002 they will, and that if you keep sucking on your thumb your teeth will look ugly like mine and your thumbs will be of unequal length like mine, so don't do that, it's a dirty habit
13:12:02 <wib_jonas> Taneb: I was raised with washable diapers; by the time my brother was born, my parents had access to use once diapers, so I can put a clear date to that
13:12:20 <wib_jonas> Taneb: nice, then you can clearly claim that email was a Tanebvention
13:13:06 <Taneb> It might be a Taneb'scousinvention
13:15:54 <wib_jonas> 2002 is when I graduated from high school, that's why it's such a convenient date
13:16:29 <Taneb> 2002 was when I turned eight
13:17:21 <wib_jonas> in fact now I think of it, my lies to children will also say that 2002 was when the plastic revolution happened, that before 2002 we drank Coca Cola from 0.2 l glass bottles and made sparkling soda water at home from metal cartridges and tap water, but after 2002 we drank Coca Cola from 0.5 l plastic bottles and brought mineral water home in 2 l
13:17:22 <wib_jonas> plastic bottles. It's not even too big of a lie.
13:17:58 <wib_jonas> I will admit that nylon hoses started way earlier though
13:18:44 <wib_jonas> but I can say that nylon and rubber and hard vinyl were basically the only plastics available, and even nylon was expensive and not yet used for bags
13:19:18 <wib_jonas> and that after 2002 we had soft vinyl (yes, it existed before that, but that's when it got cheap and ubiquitious), polypropilene (likewise), and PET
13:19:33 <wib_jonas> also cheap nylon for all sorts of bags
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13:21:20 <wib_jonas> I'm not sure about plexiglass. It was certainly used for expensive things like airplane windows and digital clocks before 2002, and something similar was used for corrective eyeglasses too, but there weren't tons of cheap LCDs for which we can look whether they had plexiglass or glass screens.
13:21:33 <wib_jonas> (admittedly very cheap LCD has neither, it has cheaper plastic covers)
13:22:02 <wib_jonas> wait, does cellulose for analog films count as a plastic?
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14:43:10 <Koen> how's it going?
14:45:11 <Koen> is that the famoux British understatement?
14:46:48 <Taneb> It's definitey British
14:46:55 <Taneb> Not sure whether it's understatement or not
14:57:37 <esolangs> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84663&oldid=83514 * Zero player rodent * (-60)
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15:09:37 <fizzie> I heard a Bill Bailey bit once riffing on the "not too bad" vs. the "great!" that US folks use instead.
15:11:00 <fizzie> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7d79Knc8p4
15:16:20 <Taneb> fizzie: that's a pretty good summary
15:19:05 <int-e> (admit it, it had to be said)
15:20:03 <[O_O]> https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/
15:20:06 <[O_O]> have you read this?
15:23:56 <[O_O]> From the perspective of someone very passionate about programming and computer science, it looks like an hazard to do such a thing, pass some very early experimental source to a machine you poorly understand, that should generate the expected output, being a matter of life and death
15:24:50 <Taneb> It's got a much more rigourous test suite than most software at least
15:25:48 <[O_O]> I think the article was written with the intent of reassuring, but to be did the opposite effect heh
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15:28:59 <[O_O]> in any case, interesting to see how logical constructs we build in software appear also in our own biological systems
15:30:03 <int-e> [O_O]: it's a cool article, and I don't know what's alarming about it?
15:31:17 <[O_O]> nothing alarming, he describes the process they have used to identify entities in code and how they hacked the cell to let the code be accepted
15:32:56 <int-e> It may be worrying *what else* one could do with that Ψ hack. But the Ψ will never be replicated by the body, so it's just another factor that ensures the mRNA doesn't stay around forever
15:33:56 <[O_O]> also, the repeated tail that's there to count how many times the thing can be executed...
15:34:17 <[O_O]> if there is a problem and the thing can be read too many times, you have blue screen of death
15:35:24 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84664&oldid=84646 * AceKiron * (+243)
15:35:57 <[O_O]> the is already a study in the public domain that makes a post-mortem on a vaccined corpse, it looks the spike protein was in all organs of the body, so at least in that case I suspect the trail did not work as expected
15:37:58 <int-e> I'll call that speculation
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15:45:02 <[O_O]> for sure it is, there is not enough data, and independent research to know
15:45:56 <[O_O]> in a decade there will be enough data to say for sure
15:47:38 <int-e> [O_O]: The thing is, in my very limited understanding *presence* of the spike protein everywhere (except probabvly the brain)... is kind of expected. AIUI it enters the blood stream, which is the main arena for immune response. So... it really comes down to quantities.
15:48:32 <[O_O]> sad to read here in Italy someone dying because of the vaccine every day, recently a young girl died, in the same region where I am a guy in his 50s died after a week of AZ, the family donated the organs, all out of liver and kidneys were totally destroyed, I think that technically is called multiple organ failure
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15:58:49 <[O_O]> so, they now told AZ should be done only to old people, but some young people did AZ so they now should do PFZ, and so mix the things, huge mess.
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16:01:29 <[O_O]> I mean, some young people did the first jab of AZ, but now AZ cannot be done to young, so who did already AZ will get PFZ as the second jab.
16:04:24 <int-e> allegedly that results in better immunization, little known about rissk
16:04:59 <Koen> mix all the things
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16:05:10 <Koen> I mixed the real virus and the Pfizer
16:05:22 <Koen> I'm told it results in strong and durable immunization
16:07:38 <[O_O]> also my mother did pfizer, for now her hair are of the same color
16:08:19 <[O_O]> she did not have any big side effect
16:09:25 <[O_O]> here the vaccination campaign went quite smooth, 2 italians on 3 got at least a jab
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17:12:42 <Koen> pfizer changed your mother's hair colour?
17:23:53 <[O_O]> nono "for now he hair are of the same color" was a stupid joke about unkown potential future side effects, nothing changed, no big side effects
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17:32:10 <zzo38> fizzie: The channel is #freeheromesh which is about the puzzle game engine (I supose it might be arguable that the preprocessor especially has some relevance for esoteric programming, although these kind of puzzle games are also those that some people on here have interest in similar things; I don't know if any of that counts).
17:33:59 <zzo38> It is OK with me to host the logs on the same domain, or on a different domain; either way is acceptable to me
17:34:11 <imode> I almost wish it'd change my hair color.
17:36:13 <zzo38> fizzie: O, also I do not expect there to be a huge number of messages in that channel
17:53:18 <esolangs> [[Column]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84665&oldid=84643 * Dominicentek * (+0) Fixed an typo, "esoretic" to "esoteric"
17:57:52 <esolangs> [[Entropy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84666&oldid=83578 * Truttle1 * (+46) /* FizzBuzz */ Fixed the indentation a bit
17:58:11 <[O_O]> that "esoretic" typo is very funny
18:00:23 <zzo38> fizzie: Also, the logs should be publicly listed in the topic message, so either tell me the URL once it is set up, or add it by yourself (if I have done it correctly, you should have access)
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18:05:26 <fizzie> zzo38: Right. Maybe I could just add it to the existing bot, and if it somehow becomes a problem (very unlikely), we can re-think. The URL would likely be https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-freeheromesh/ -- I'll take a look at the configuration in a bit, i just need to commit a lot of recent changes I've made first to keep them separate.
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18:16:41 <b_jonas> hmm... I encouraged [O_O] to stay on #esolangs because they were talking about a bytecode compiler for a toy language. I didn't expect this.
18:17:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait a moment, aren't you already hosting an always on computer with a web server? why do you need fizzie's help for the IRC logs?
18:17:59 <b_jonas> maybe you don't have the disk space or something
18:19:04 <fizzie> All of #esoteric's 20 years of logs takes up 150 megabytes or so; it's not a very storage-intensive use case. I imagined it was just about the convenience of having a thing that does the logging and the serving and the formatting?
18:19:47 <Koen> and here 3hours on AndChat browsing irc from my smartphone takes 60Mb
18:19:55 <Koen> wtf is this app storing
18:20:12 <zzo38> It is not always on; sometimes there is power out, internet problem, being shut off for cleaning or needing rebooting, etc. (If I later host the IRC myself, then I will have it hosting logs myself too.) Also, this allows that in case there are multiple logs being kept in case one doesn't work sometimes.
18:23:04 <fizzie> Koen: To be fair, it's ~570M uncompressed. But still.
18:24:12 <Koen> 570M * 3h / 20y / 60M is still a pretty small number
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18:32:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah thanks, that explains it
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18:35:53 <arseniiv> I wanted to edit that to “how is #esoteric today” afterwards
18:36:28 * APic is fine, thanks
18:37:03 <arseniiv> (as they say, old habits die promptly and new habits do the indistinguishable)
18:37:19 <fizzie> "Not too bad." (I'm trying to integrate to the local culture, and as discussed just recently, that's what you're supposed to say here.)
18:37:48 <arseniiv> what measure do you use when integrating?
18:39:04 <arseniiv> (though approximating integrals over culture sounds more like applied statistics)
18:40:13 <fizzie> Or Seldonian psychohistory, perhaps.
18:46:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84667&oldid=83887 * Redoverflow * (+32)
18:49:08 <[O_O]> sorry for bothering guys
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18:58:10 <HackEso> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
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19:08:39 <HackEso> Libera has always been our homeland. The Chännel has been dwelling in it since the beginning of time. Any rumors about another network called "freenode" are compleetely bogus.
19:09:00 <HackEso> The Realm of Freenode used to be our homeland. The Chännel dwelled in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago?
19:09:07 <esolangs> [[Esolangs (irc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84668&oldid=83621 * Fizzie * (-486) Remove the bits that are no longer relevant.
19:10:07 <esolangs> [[Fungot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84669&oldid=67852 * Fizzie * (+3) Also moved.
19:10:11 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84670 * Toxinite * (+1871) Created page with "==Overview== '''Bitbot''' is an esolang created on the 18th of June, 2021 by [[User:Toxinite]]. Bitbot programs are used to control a data pointer in an infinite 2d grid of bi..."
19:11:33 <esolangs> [[HackEso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84671&oldid=67581 * Fizzie * (+3) Also moved.
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19:18:22 <esolangs> [[UNITE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84672 * Redoverflow * (+1292) Created page with "'''UNITE''' is a pretty small esolang with a little to no purpose. ==Overview== UNITE only consists of two commands, which are explained in the table below. {| class="wikita..."
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19:23:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84673&oldid=84628 * B jonas * (+121) /* IRC */
19:30:43 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84674&oldid=84661 * CodyNinja1 * (+53) added the "EDITORNOTE" instruction
19:31:20 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84675&oldid=84674 * CodyNinja1 * (+64) added the extra line
19:31:46 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84676&oldid=84675 * CodyNinja1 * (+80) added the other extra line
19:34:03 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84677&oldid=84676 * CodyNinja1 * (+0) oops
19:34:54 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84678&oldid=84677 * CodyNinja1 * (+0) im so dumb lmao
19:37:51 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84679&oldid=84678 * CodyNinja1 * (+87) added the inf. loop program
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19:46:48 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84680&oldid=84679 * CodyNinja1 * (+755)
19:57:26 <b_jonas> so with this covid thing, I sometimes work from home. every time I have to do that, I pack up the work laptop in my bag, bring it home, put the laptop and accessories onto my desk, plug the docking station into the laptop, plug the power supply to the docking station, plug the power supply to the mains, hit the power button, see that the power led lights up, plug the keyboard into the docking station,
19:57:32 <b_jonas> plug the wireless mouse dongle to the laptop, turn on the wireless mouse,
19:57:57 <b_jonas> press keys on the keyboard, move the mouse, press keys on the keyboard, move the mouse, wonder why there's no image on the screen, I check that the power light is still on, I wonder again why there's no image on the screen.
19:58:16 <b_jonas> it's because I DIDN'T CONNECT THE HDMI CABLE TO THE DOCKING STATION, YOU IDIOT.
19:58:20 <b_jonas> it's the same thing every darned time
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19:58:49 <b_jonas> this covid thing has been going on for a year and a half. you've brought the laptop home like twenty times. the first two times you made different mistakes, but ever since that, it's been the hdmi cable.
19:58:53 <b_jonas> I'm just getting old, that's what it is
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20:39:34 <Taneb> Maybe you should right down a checklist
20:42:48 <fizzie> Taneb: A reminder that I wrote up https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:IRC_cloaks as a potential suggestion of how about/esolangs/* IRC cloaks could be divvied up.
20:44:02 <Taneb> fizzie: there are multiple cloaks I would like and I'm being a bit of a Buridan's Ass about the whole thing
20:44:52 <int-e> . o O ( everything/inventor/taneb )
20:45:14 <fizzie> That's reasonable enough, just wanted to make sure you didn't miss that.
20:45:54 <esolangs> [[Inverted]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84681 * Dominicentek * (+3400) Created page with "Inverted is an esoteric programming language written by Dominicentek in Java. It's code is written line-by-line, and executed from bottom to top. It's very similar to Brainfuc..."
20:46:07 <esolangs> [[Inverted]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84682&oldid=84681 * Dominicentek * (-10)
20:47:10 <zzo38> I think that if you are going to make cloaks, it could be allowed for anyone who has made at least one edit on the wiki and uses the wiki user name as the cloak name (it doesn't matter what edit, as long as it is not one that is then reverted right away because it is no good)
20:47:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: I thought the nickserv username has to be in the cloak
20:48:05 <fizzie> Nah, Wikipedia cloaks are wiki usernames AIUI.
20:49:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: If so, then require the usernames to match.
20:49:15 <b_jonas> huh... I wonder how they encode the wiki usernames, those can contain like almost all character except control characters and ten or so reserved ones
20:49:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sknebel * New user account
20:49:47 <b_jonas> and, in particular, [ is valid in an irc nick but not in a wiki username
20:49:54 <esolangs> [[Inverted]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84683&oldid=84682 * Dominicentek * (+66) Added categories
20:50:12 <fizzie> My preference would allow you to choose between your (Esolangs) wiki username (translated into a cloak-eligible form in any generally reasonable manner) or your IRC nickname (or I guess NickServ account name, which for most is the same), but not anything completely arbitrary.
20:50:15 <b_jonas> and hostnames are even more restricted
20:50:24 <b_jonas> but the point is, some wiki usernames don't even have any ascii chracter
20:50:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:IRC cloaks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84684&oldid=83836 * Taneb * (+77) Request a cloak
20:50:35 <b_jonas> well I guess there's always punycode or something
20:50:43 <Taneb> fizzie: I have decided to request a cloak
20:50:54 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84685&oldid=84363 * Dominicentek * (+15)
20:51:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: and I guess you won't give me the same cloak that someone else has if I register their irc nick on the wiki or the other way
20:51:14 <b_jonas> because that would be silly
20:51:39 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess that would be a reasonable rule too.
20:51:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84686&oldid=84662 * Sknebel * (+203) add myself
20:51:52 <zzo38> O, those are also a valid point, although it is too late now I would have disallowed non-ASCII characters in wiki user names, since it can cause problems with homoglyphs
20:52:47 <fizzie> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Cloaks "Name conflicts will be handled on a case-by-case basis." I don't imagine it would really become a problem for us, because there aren't that many people interested I think.
20:53:28 <b_jonas> yep. I don't actually want a cloak.
20:54:03 <b_jonas> and if I wanted a cloak, I would prefer an unaffiliated one (I know it's not called that anymore, but still)
20:56:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zelah * New user account
20:58:50 <fizzie> Taneb: You didn't do the "Keep the "example" record at the bottom of the table for others" bit, but that really doesn't matter. :)
20:59:38 <Taneb> fizzie: I figured there's a small chance that that was an actual person, and it'd be rude to skip the queue in front of them
20:59:56 <int-e> there's no queue, really
21:00:04 <int-e> fizzie's collecting a batch to be processed all at once
21:00:23 <fizzie> Also, the IP I use for email has somehow made it to the Spamhaus blocklist. :/ One of those new user registration confirmation emails just bounced because of that.
21:00:59 <fizzie> The listing details don't really mention my specific IP, but I guess it's possible they've blocked a larger range of DigitalOcean addresses.
21:05:08 <zzo38> I have a book of philosophy of mathematics. It mentions some things including naturalism, Platonism, and also classical and intuitionistic logic. One thing that they say is: do classical and intuitionistic logicians mean the same thing? Is one correct and the other wrong, or both wrong? Is there a disagreement about truth? But, my own opinion is: Absolute truth is inexpressible.
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21:14:11 <Corbin> zzo38: I would point out three things. First, there's a theorem, Tarski's Undefinability of Truth, which agrees with your opinion. It makes some assumptions about numbers though.
21:16:25 <Corbin> Second, the Law of Excluded Middle (LEM) is not true in all settings, and it's the main difference between constructive and non-constructive logics. So the place where we're trying to use the results of our logical reasoning (sets, spaces, etc.) alters the truthiness of some of our axioms.
21:17:30 <Corbin> Third, there's a bridge between the typical constructive approach and the typical Boolean approach; we can reuse constructive proofs in Boolean contexts, and we can use https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/double+negation+translation to go the other way.
21:23:35 <zzo38> Yes, I do know of the double negation translation and Law of Excluded Middle and that stuff
21:24:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84687&oldid=83837 * Zzo38 * (+660)
21:25:19 <Corbin> Ah, excellent. It makes sense that folks here might be initiated into esoterica.
21:28:07 <zzo38> (Also, I think the double negation translation is also related to continuation monad)
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21:53:56 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84688&oldid=84670 * Toxinite * (+438) Mild improvements + stub and WIP templates
21:57:12 <Corbin> Yeah, it is. It's a deep mystery.
21:57:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84689&oldid=84638 * Toxinite * (+13) Added Bitbot
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22:07:21 <keegan> to prove "P or not P": first assert "not P", then if someone calls your bluff by providing a proof of P, use a continuation to go back in time and assert P was true all along
22:07:28 <keegan> I find this deeply amusing
22:08:00 <riv> you can't just go back in time
22:08:50 <keegan> you can't really, but you can do something that looks like it with continuations
22:09:16 <keegan> you can formalize and typecheck the above recipe for proving "P or not P" given a call/cc operator (whose type corresponds to Pierce's Law)
22:11:48 <zzo38> I had preferred a different variant which is "law of excluded middle continuations" (lem/cc), although they can be implemented from each other
22:11:50 <keegan> @type callCC (\k -> return $ Left (\x -> k $ Right x))
22:11:51 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => m (Either (b1 -> m b2) b1)
22:13:00 <keegan> within Haskell you can think of the Cont monad as a logic operator which means "classically true" as opposed to the default meaning of types, "constructively true"
22:13:16 <keegan> zzo38: what is the type of lem/cc?
22:14:39 <zzo38> keegan: It is the same as that one, I think
22:15:01 <riv> @type callCC (\k -> return $ Left (\x -> k =<< Right x))
22:15:03 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
22:15:03 <lambdabot> a1 ~ Either (a1 -> Either a b0) b1
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23:18:23 <keegan> riv: let's specialize to m = Cont and rename the other variables, giving Cont (Either (a -> Cont b) a)
23:18:56 <keegan> "for all propositions a,b, it is classically true that either a implies b, or a is true"
23:19:15 <keegan> since b does not appear anywhere else this boils down to "either a implies everything, or a is true"
23:19:36 <keegan> and "a implies everything" is just a more explicit way to write "not a" (in both classical and constructive logic)
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23:20:30 <keegan> so that's the law of the excluded middle
23:22:03 <b_jonas> I thought the law of the excluded middle was the policeman joke, the one about four policeman arguing about who gets the window seats in the police car.
23:28:09 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84690&oldid=84680 * CodyNinja1 * (+109) added the VSCode extension for syntax highlighting
23:28:30 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84691&oldid=84690 * CodyNinja1 * (+2) im an idiot
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23:48:48 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84692&oldid=84688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* Commands */ Categorize
23:51:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84693&oldid=84667 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) 7
00:01:06 <esolangs> [[Epistemic logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84694&oldid=45443 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) External cats
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00:01:55 <Corbin> Do folks have thoughts about e-graphs for optimization, as in https://egraphs-good.github.io/ ?
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00:21:40 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84695&oldid=84470 * ResU * (+179) added section
01:32:35 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84696 * Rphii * (+13057) Created
01:35:46 <shachaf> I guess they're popular in SMT solvers?
01:38:11 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84697&oldid=84696 * Rphii * (-65) removed unimplemented thought
01:41:13 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84698&oldid=84697 * Rphii * (+13) fixed description from being a 2D array to a one dimensional array
01:43:38 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84699&oldid=84698 * Rphii * (+81) added "golden ratio" program
01:44:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84700&oldid=84689 * Rphii * (+9) /* Non-alphabetic */
01:52:18 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84701&oldid=84621 * Rphii * (+4)
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03:31:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 4D4850 * New user account
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03:38:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84702&oldid=84686 * 4D4850 * (+130) /* Introductions */
04:15:34 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84703 * 4D4850 * (+2143) Created page with "processor.txt was made by Miles Poland, on Friday, June 18, 2021. It is inspired by the RISC style of processors, hence the name. The .txt part is because the original specs w..."
04:16:21 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84704&oldid=84703 * 4D4850 * (+12) /* Example Programs */
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04:36:24 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84705&oldid=84704 * 4D4850 * (+18) /* References */
04:38:45 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84706&oldid=84705 * 4D4850 * (+50)
04:39:50 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84707&oldid=84706 * 4D4850 * (+0)
04:43:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84708&oldid=84700 * 4D4850 * (+20) /* P */
05:10:26 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84709&oldid=84618 * Salpynx * (+2081) /* Examples */ Befunge Petersen graph embedding
06:17:06 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84710&oldid=84594 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+111) /* Befunk */ Added link
06:19:25 <esolangs> [[Befunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84711&oldid=82367 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+111) /* Hello world */ LifeViewer link
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06:34:27 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84712&oldid=82806 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+88)
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07:42:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Richienb * New user account
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09:04:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TartanLlama * New user account
09:07:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84713&oldid=84702 * TartanLlama * (+185)
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09:20:23 <esolangs> [[User:TartanLlama]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84714 * TartanLlama * (+85) Created page with "You can find the languages I have created at [https://github.com/tartanllama GitHub]."
09:20:40 <esolangs> [[Vizh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84715 * TartanLlama * (+380) Created page with "'''vizh''' is a visual [[esoteric programming language]] that takes image files as input and is based on a multi-tape [[Turing machine]]. It is designed for compatibility with..."
09:23:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * TartanLlama * uploaded "[[File:Memcopy vizh.png]]"
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09:25:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * TartanLlama * uploaded "[[File:Memcopy vizh parser output.png]]"
09:26:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PolySaken * New user account
09:31:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84718&oldid=84713 * PolySaken * (+169) /* Introductions */
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09:59:44 <esolangs> [[User:PolySaken]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84719 * PolySaken * (+236) Created page with "I'm PolySaken, a programmer for 10 years and a recent appreciator of esoteric programming. My Esolangs: * Clart, not worth putting on the wiki - [https://github.com/PolySaken..."
09:59:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84720&oldid=84708 * PolySaken * (+42) /* E */
10:00:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * TartanLlama * uploaded "[[File:Seekclosbr.png]]"
10:00:59 <esolangs> [[Vizh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84722&oldid=84715 * TartanLlama * (+5898)
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10:05:25 <esolangs> [[Vizh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84723&oldid=84722 * TartanLlama * (+14)
10:06:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84724&oldid=84720 * TartanLlama * (+11) Add vizh
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10:08:20 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84725 * PolySaken * (+2201) Created page with "'''Excellerated''' meaning 'made excel-like', in reference to microsoft excel's grid layout. ==Overview== In ESTML, the program must be set out in a grid constructed like so..."
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10:16:19 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84726&oldid=84725 * PolySaken * (+16)
10:19:18 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84727&oldid=84692 * Toxinite * (+386)
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10:51:05 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84728&oldid=84726 * PolySaken * (+75)
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12:02:40 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84729&oldid=84707 * 4D4850 * (+140) /* Instruction set */
12:04:32 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84730&oldid=84729 * 4D4850 * (+25) /* Example Programs */
12:08:38 <nakilon> I was thinking about Voronoi based image compression fwe years ago
12:09:38 <nakilon> but looks like someone has implemented it https://github.com/eustas/2im
12:10:38 <nakilon> my mistake was in trying to make it all at once while in his format it looks like each iteration doesn't move previous iteration borders
12:10:48 <nakilon> though I couldn't find a word "voronoi" in repo
12:14:56 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84731&oldid=84730 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) Remove unneeded code tags, cat
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12:18:59 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84732&oldid=84699 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-101) Lower the title to fix title
12:21:49 <fizzie> Hmm, still need to fix that recent-change feed's filtering some day, it should likely pass valid printable UTF-8 through. As it is, some page titles like Φ/φ just disappear completely.
12:22:19 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84733&oldid=84732 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Golden Ratio */ Categories
12:32:58 <esolangs> [[Sticks and Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84734&oldid=62862 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) /* External resources */ CatS
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12:37:59 <esolangs> [[Tttt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84735&oldid=70995 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+95) /* programs */ Categorize
12:46:43 <esolangs> [[Enjamb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84736 * TartanLlama * (+7966) Created page with "Enjamb is an [[esoteric programming language]] where it's not what's in your lines that matters it's where you break them. It was created in 2019 by [[User:TartanLlama]]...."
12:47:05 <esolangs> [[Enjamb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84737&oldid=84736 * TartanLlama * (+1) Fix category
12:47:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84738&oldid=84724 * TartanLlama * (+13) Add enjamb
12:48:23 <esolangs> [[User:TartanLlama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84739&oldid=84714 * TartanLlama * (+36)
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13:06:04 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84740&oldid=84727 * Toxinite * (+268) Mild changes
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13:12:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:DoFor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84741 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+248) /* Forward jumping */ new section
13:14:20 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84742&oldid=84544 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* interpreter download: */ Cats
13:15:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:DoFor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84743&oldid=84741 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) Feature?
13:42:29 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84744&oldid=84738 * ResU * (+13) added Turkey
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14:11:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Fohc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84745 * Ais523 * (+555) musings on the computational class
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14:22:17 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84746&oldid=84731 * 4D4850 * (+105) /* Example Programs */
14:23:05 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84747&oldid=84746 * 4D4850 * (+107) /* Instruction set */
14:23:33 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84748&oldid=84747 * 4D4850 * (-32) /* Printing my username (has to be run with command line switch "-a", once I patch that into the repo): */
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14:45:56 <esolangs> [[Self-modifying esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84749 * ResU * (+1240) added esolang
14:46:43 <esolangs> [[Self-modifying esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84750&oldid=84749 * ResU * (+12) /* Truth machine */
14:48:02 <esolangs> [[Self-modifying esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84751&oldid=84750 * ResU * (+25) /* insert.command(insert.command(x)) */
14:49:41 <esolangs> [[Fohc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84752&oldid=84602 * ResU * (-1) typo fix
14:52:49 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84753&oldid=84748 * ResU * (+0) typo fix
14:58:19 <esolangs> [[Self-modifying esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84754&oldid=84751 * ResU * (+41) /* Truth machine */
15:02:09 <esolangs> [[Self-modifying esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84755&oldid=84754 * ResU * (+28) added another category
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15:20:34 <esolangs> [[Turkey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84756&oldid=84464 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+187) /* Truth machine */ Cats/implementation
15:21:30 <esolangs> [[Turkey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84757&oldid=84756 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-118) /* Implementation */ undo
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15:55:52 <esolangs> [[Turkey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84758&oldid=84757 * ResU * (+101) added truth machine
15:56:22 <esolangs> [[Turkey]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84759&oldid=84758 * ResU * (+11) /* Truth machine */
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16:47:10 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84760&oldid=84733 * Rphii * (+0)
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16:53:52 <Guest86> I found compilers and interpreters on discord, I will come back when my beard will be whiter and longer
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16:57:57 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84761&oldid=84760 * Rphii * (+723) Extended specifications slightly
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17:00:29 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84762&oldid=84761 * Rphii * (+7) /* terminating */ make the description more defined
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17:33:00 <esolangs> [[Li1I]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84763 * TartanLlama * (+3445) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''li1I''' is a domain-specific programming language for integer calculations. It supports recursive functions, conditional execution, and expresses arithmetic i..."
17:34:39 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84764&oldid=84538 * TartanLlama * (+140) Add li1I
17:35:32 <riv> http://inference.org.uk/itprnn/book.pdf
17:35:35 <riv> is anyone interested in this book?
17:36:19 <esolangs> [[User:TartanLlama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84765&oldid=84739 * TartanLlama * (+264)
17:37:47 <esolangs> [[Enjamb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84766&oldid=84737 * TartanLlama * (+17) Move example to top of page
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18:27:20 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84767&oldid=84691 * CodyNinja1 * (+9) changed the def.
18:27:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LemonChad * New user account
18:30:19 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84768&oldid=84767 * CodyNinja1 * (+0) oopsie again
18:31:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84769&oldid=84718 * LemonChad * (+201) /* Introductions */
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18:44:18 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84772&oldid=84562 * ResU * (+33) /* My esolangs: */
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20:11:56 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84778&oldid=84550 * S1(210) * (+44) /* Overview */
20:12:12 <esolangs> [[User:Toxinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84779&oldid=84777 * Toxinite * (+20)
20:14:18 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84780&oldid=84778 * S1(210) * (-9) /* Composition of Lambdas */
20:14:39 <esolangs> [[User:Toxinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84781&oldid=84779 * Toxinite * (-20) Undo revision 84779 by [[Special:Contributions/Toxinite|Toxinite]] ([[User talk:Toxinite|talk]])
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20:21:51 <esolangs> [[Ants]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84784&oldid=84771 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) Cat stub
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21:44:24 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84785&oldid=84780 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Amended the word mathmatical to mathematical.
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21:55:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:About]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84786&oldid=76166 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-10) Substituted the hyperlink target leading to the Bytemark site, seemingly not extant anymore, with the URL of its home page.
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22:15:59 <^[> riv: Thanks!
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22:55:24 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84787&oldid=84753 * 4D4850 * (-11) /* Cat program: */
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00:10:53 <esolangs> [[Self-modifying esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84788&oldid=84773 * ResU * (+14) /* Hello, world! */
00:29:07 <esolangs> [[Self-modifying esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84789&oldid=84788 * ResU * (+206) added example
00:30:11 <esolangs> [[Self-modifying esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84790&oldid=84789 * ResU * (+55) /* Fibonacci sequence */
00:31:08 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84791&oldid=84709 * Salpynx * (+367) /* Python, Petersen graph embedding */ Compact Python
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02:53:18 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84792&oldid=84791 * Salpynx * (+374) /* Compact Python */ Desargues Graph
02:53:50 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/n-Genus Graph Embedding]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84793&oldid=84792 * Salpynx * (+15) /* Funge-98 */
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03:07:35 <zzo38> Does the rules of Magic: the Gathering now includes copies from database?
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03:57:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JUSTANITALIANGUY * New user account
03:58:44 <oerjan> . o O ( ALOUDITALIANHOWSTEREOTYPICAL )
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04:55:52 <imode> underrated comment.
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06:20:01 <nakilon> there should be a special clipboard-compatible/related data format for copypasting chat logs
06:20:33 <nakilon> when you copypaste logs of youtube/twitch/irc/some_social_network whatever
06:21:14 <nakilon> it has to be pasted not as a png screenshot but as how you want it to be formatted, with stupid dark color scheme, more or less compact lines, etc.
06:23:40 <nakilon> *how addressee wants it to be formatted
06:27:49 <nakilon> (also people should be fined when they screenshot things that could be just sopypasted as a text)
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07:09:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Processor.txt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84794 * Bangyen * (+310) Created page with "== Incorrect Operation Descriptions == <code>%</code> and <code>_</code> have the wrong descriptions. They differ from the reference implementation as well as the first exampl..."
07:12:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84795&oldid=76912 * AceKiron * (+202) /* List of programs */
07:15:36 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84796&oldid=84787 * Bangyen * (-16)
07:17:44 <riv> ^[, yes it seems good!
07:17:49 <riv> i started reading http://inference.org.uk/itprnn/book.pdf
07:18:08 <riv> I have always heard the the information theory facts but never really the proofs
07:25:18 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84797&oldid=84664 * AceKiron * (+4466) /* Examples */
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08:06:42 <zzo38> Of course IRC already has a format, although it doesn't include timestamps, but there are extended formats that include timestamps too if wanted. I fail to see what the colour scheme has anything to do with it though; it is plain text and doesn't have a colour scheme.
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09:40:32 <riv> http://inference.org.uk/itprnn/book.pdf
09:40:43 <riv> I would say that page 27 of the PDF, which is marked page 15 inside the PDF is of particular interest
09:40:51 <riv> Figure 1.19. in particular
09:46:44 <riv> section 2.4 page 32 in the PDF, page 44 of the PDF defines shannon information if anyone wants to jump in there
09:46:49 <riv> but it does not explain why yet
09:51:18 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84798&oldid=84762 * Rphii * (-103) /* Examples */ simplified truth machine by using the mode
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10:41:23 <esolangs> [[What's the dog doin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84799&oldid=84547 * GreenThePear * (+1130) Clarifications and more examples
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16:01:35 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84801&oldid=84796 * 4D4850 * (+417) /* Printing my username (has to be run with command line switch "-a"): */ Added explanation of a printing block.
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17:17:36 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84802&oldid=84801 * 4D4850 * (+223)
17:19:45 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84803&oldid=84802 * 4D4850 * (+20) /* Computational Class */
17:20:36 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84804&oldid=84803 * 4D4850 * (-6) /* References */
17:21:26 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84805&oldid=84804 * 4D4850 * (+50) /* Computational Class */
17:27:18 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84806&oldid=84606 * Plasmath * (+13927) added squaring and fixed some code
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18:00:06 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84807&oldid=84806 * Plasmath * (+286) 99 bottles of beer program (sort of)
18:01:45 <esolangs> [[DoEverything();]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84808&oldid=59072 * ResU * (+1)
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18:52:56 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84810 * ResU * (+1093) Created page with "==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Cmd !What it does |- |>^<v |Moves right, up, left, down. |- |S |Is the beginning location of the pointer. The pointer automatically starts mov..."
18:53:30 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84811&oldid=84810 * ResU * (-3)
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19:05:57 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84816&oldid=84805 * 4D4850 * (+11) /* Ok, what is wrong with comments?! And what does DATA mean? */
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19:08:55 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84817&oldid=84815 * ResU * (+41) added category
19:11:48 <esolangs> [[Processor.txt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84818&oldid=84816 * 4D4850 * (+27) /* Computational Class */
19:14:21 <imode> what formal treatments of transport triggered architectures exist?
19:17:12 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84819&oldid=84817 * ResU * (+61) added example
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19:19:36 <esolangs> [[UToober]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84820&oldid=84768 * CodyNinja1 * (+12) engrish is hrad
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19:31:09 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84821&oldid=84819 * ResU * (+290) /* Commands */
19:31:35 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84822&oldid=84821 * ResU * (-1) /* Commands */
19:31:54 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84823&oldid=84822 * ResU * (+2) /* Commands */
19:55:48 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84824&oldid=84800 * Toxinite * (+294)
20:13:39 <zzo38> I had once designed schematics for a transport triggered architecture, although at the time I did not know that it was called that.
20:14:18 <zzo38> Some registers had side effects on read or on write or both, and one register was always read back as the bitwise complement of the data written to that register.
20:15:57 <zzo38> (It was also harvard)
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20:58:37 <arseniiv> zzo38: imode: ah, interesting! A couple of Soviet programmable calculator architectures had registers which increment/decrement values in them when read. Though I don’t remember particulars. I think it was on those which had eggogology
20:59:11 <arseniiv> I haven’t got my hand on any of them personally
21:00:17 <arseniiv> and now I have a computer with those fancy esoteric languages hosted so there’s no need to learn the command set of those calculator families
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21:06:18 <imode> it's interesting in concept because the idea of source -> dest doesn't need to just be between memory adresses, but processes.
21:06:51 <imode> I'm imagining an FSA where the transitions are labeled with source -> dest pairs.
21:07:12 <imode> with some kind of boolean flag as a result.
21:07:16 <imode> "is this send possible".
21:07:24 <imode> or "is this communication possible".
21:13:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Qoibl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84825 * Bangyen * (+218) Created page with "== Suggestion == Instead of <code>rr x rr y rr</code>, while loops should be <code>rr x re y rr</code> to allow for nested while loops. - ~~~~"
21:23:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84826&oldid=84825 * Bangyen * (+83) /* Suggestion */
21:27:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84827&oldid=84826 * Bangyen * (-83) /* Suggestion */
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00:16:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PixelatedStarfish * New user account
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01:05:59 <nakilon> zzo38 clipboard isn't necessary plain text, it can have rich text; it just needs even more rich text that would represent a portion of chat/comments with standard attributes like nickname, userpic, timestamp, message; the message may be a nested picture
01:31:56 <oerjan> the trouble is there are too many standards https://xkcd.com/927/
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01:41:03 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84828&oldid=84798 * Rphii * (+1686) /* Examples */ added "Hello, World!" program
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01:43:40 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84829&oldid=84828 * Rphii * (+146) /* [variable] */ clarified
01:59:28 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84830&oldid=84829 * Rphii * (+156) /* Hello, world! */ fixed a small mistake
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02:00:57 <zzo38> The different one are good for a different purposes, maybe, although sometimes some are just no good anyways, or they have various problems, advantages/disadvantages, etc
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02:10:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheYoungestCoder * New user account
03:31:37 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84831&oldid=84641 * Bangyen * (+0)
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04:15:39 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84834&oldid=84833 * Bangyen * (-26)
04:22:19 <esolangs> [[Qoibl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84835&oldid=84834 * Bangyen * (+101)
04:39:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mecaneer23 * New user account
04:42:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84836&oldid=84769 * Mecaneer23 * (+221) /* Introductions */
04:45:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84837&oldid=84836 * Mecaneer23 * (+0) /* Introductions */
05:26:13 <esolangs> [[Bin-snake]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84838 * Mecaneer23 * (+702) Created page with "Bin-snake is a Python wrapper, in Binary. Bin-snake converts a Bin-snake file (.bs) to Python code, and then executes it to Python. ===Writing Bin-snake=== With an understand..."
05:27:05 <esolangs> [[Bin-snake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84839&oldid=84838 * Mecaneer23 * (+8) /* Running Bin-snake */
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05:28:02 <esolangs> [[Bin-snake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84841&oldid=84840 * Mecaneer23 * (+0) /* Running Bin-snake */
05:28:18 <esolangs> [[Bin-snake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84842&oldid=84841 * Mecaneer23 * (-10) /* Running Bin-snake */
05:29:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84843&oldid=84744 * Mecaneer23 * (+16) /* B */
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05:46:13 <zzo38> Do you like the Cistercian numbers? I think that there could be some improvements, such as the sign of 6 is no good and is better to make the sign of 6 to reverse the sign of 5, and also I can suggest to make place value of myriads, alternating upright (the low palce) and 90 degrees counterclockwise
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07:46:42 <shachaf> How strong is the connection between computing prefix sums and adding numbers with carry?
07:46:50 <shachaf> There seems to be a lot of similarity.
07:48:31 <shachaf> Specifically, a prefix sum takes n elements and produces n+1 elements, where the last output is like the carry.
07:48:51 <shachaf> Or you can say it takes n+1 and returns n+1, where the first input is added to every value (instead of having the first output be 0).
07:49:42 <shachaf> There seem to be connections between the fast parallel scan algorithms and the addition algorithms.
07:49:52 <shachaf> Though I don't really know all the fancy ways people make n-bit adders.
07:50:21 <int-e> not sure whether this extends beyond the fact that monoids are involved
07:51:15 <shachaf> What's the monoid in the adder case? 2-bit numbers?
07:51:54 <shachaf> It seems like there's a pretty strong connection between the kinds of algorithms you can do.
07:52:44 <shachaf> You have similar concerns with the total depth (where input carry->output carry, or computing the total output sum, is probably your longest path).
07:53:07 <shachaf> And you can do the thing where you split the thing into chunks and then connect them up to reduce the depth.
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08:02:26 <FireFly> there's a neat way of calculating & updating prefix sums with fenwick trees, but you might be familiar with them already
08:02:58 <int-e> Hmm. Well, the monoid I have in mind is a bit weird: it uses pairs (b, d) where b is a base, and n is a digit. And the operation is (b, d) <> (b', d') = (b*b', d*b' + d'). So this doesn't do addition; it represents base 2 numbers as (2, d[n-1]) <> (2, d[n-2]) <> ... <> (2, d[0]).
08:03:11 <shachaf> Oh, I was just thinking of binary numbers.
08:03:22 <shachaf> I'm sort of familiar but not in detail.
08:03:59 <shachaf> Is it different from the thing you get with a binary tree where you store summaries in the branches?
08:04:12 <shachaf> Or is it a way of storing the branch summaries compactly with implicit layout?
08:04:14 <int-e> So what you can do to do addition is to split each d into its bits and a carry. And then you can regroup and do case analysis on the incoming carries and derive all the cool carry propagation/carry prediction stuff.
08:05:24 <FireFly> shachaf: yeah, it's just that I think, usually with the binary tree implemented compactly the usual way for dense power-of-two binary trees
08:05:39 <FireFly> it gets you both logarithmic update and query, which is neat
08:06:02 <shachaf> There's a paper about Fenwick trees that I meant to read but haven't yet.
08:06:16 <shachaf> Aha, it's this one: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.12370.pdf
08:06:20 <int-e> shachaf: note that if you start out with a binary number, b is always a power of 2; it's mainly a bookkeeping thing that is important to make things associative
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08:06:56 <int-e> But as usualy I'm not sure which similarity you see. :P
08:07:07 * int-e tends to focus on differences.
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08:08:27 <shachaf> int-e: Aha, I see, that's an interesting perspective, now that I read what you said.
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08:10:46 <shachaf> Let me see if I can say explicitly why they seem so similar.
08:11:27 <shachaf> The naive algorithm for adding two numbers is a ripple-carry adder, where you just add the way long addition works, figuring out the next bit and carry at a time.
08:12:13 <shachaf> And the naive algorithm for a scan is similar -- you go from beginning to end, outputting the current sum and adding values as you see them.
08:12:30 <shachaf> And these are both optimal sequentially.
08:13:28 <shachaf> When you want to parallelize it, one thing you can do is break the thing into chunks, and compute the result for each chunk.
08:14:11 <shachaf> The result you get isn't quite right, though, but you can correct it with the output from the previous chunk, and correcting it takes less work than computing the whole thing from scratch.
08:15:50 <int-e> Ah. I think I actually got the right idea then. It's just that the ripple carry story is quite a bit more complicated than the prefix sum story in the details.
08:16:21 <shachaf> Maybe I should start by saying "increment" rather than "add".
08:16:31 <shachaf> Since that's what I was really thinking.
08:16:43 <shachaf> And there are similar things going on.
08:16:48 <int-e> (because the prefix sum stuff is just about regrouping addition in clever ways; it's already a nice monoid as is)
08:16:57 <int-e> or maybe semigroup, we don't need the unit
08:17:22 <shachaf> Hmm, interesting, I think of prefix sum as needing a unit, but the version with carry just takes the 0 value as an argument anyway.
08:17:25 <int-e> (it doesn't hurt either)
08:18:02 <int-e> (the unit is only strictly needed if you allow an empty prefix)
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08:18:40 <shachaf> Anyway, maybe the connection would be stronger if I'd just said increment to start with.
08:28:01 <shachaf> OK, here's a post that answers several of my questions: https://gist.github.com/pervognsen/c89b0726da133fed8791e68cd72864cf
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10:07:11 <nakilon> there is no standard here though
10:07:44 <nakilon> clipboard is basically either plain text, or rich text, or an image, or a path in a filesystem
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10:29:02 <nakilon> or for example, there are RSS and Atom to make posts look the same
10:31:09 <nakilon> would be nice to see random copypasta in web taken from twitter/fb/discourse/reddit/tumblr/etc. all formatted in the same way
10:33:02 <nakilon> instead of screenshots with random ugly fonts, getting compressed with each reupload (since most of the people don't know what is the URL and instead of linking they download and upload the media; not even saying that they often use phone to take a screenshot of text from the monitor)
10:34:34 <nakilon> in perspective if there is a wireless connection between the smartphone and the machine that you screenshot its display then if would be possible to even apply the format I imagine even when you are trying to make a photo of the screen
10:35:55 <nakilon> my English is bad, gotta sleep
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12:15:57 <esolangs> [[2D imensional]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84846&oldid=84845 * ResU * (+19) /* Commands */
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13:13:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asriel77 * New user account
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14:43:49 <Taneb> Astronomy : Astrophysics :: Gastronomy : Gastrophysics
14:49:47 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84853&oldid=84851 * Zero player rodent * (+8)
14:57:07 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84854 * VilgotanL * (+580) Created page with " is an [[Eek!]] derivative by the Amogus Esolang Crew, mostly by [[User:VilgotanL]] and [[User:Zero player rodent]]. The only difference between and Eek! is that E, e,..."
14:57:38 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84855&oldid=84854 * VilgotanL * (-13) fix table head cell
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15:05:20 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84856&oldid=84855 * VilgotanL * (+0) fix table because my brain didnt work
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16:35:01 <fizzie> Taneb: Astronomy : Astrology :: Gastronomy : Gastrology?
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17:01:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84860&oldid=84837 * DjAlac * (+203) /* Introductions */
17:01:38 <esolangs> [[User:DjAlac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84861 * DjAlac * (+20) Created page with "Working on language."
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18:26:48 <nakilon> https://translate.yandex.ru/?text=%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C&lang=ru-en
18:27:13 <nakilon> I though there is a word to gastrole in English
18:27:23 <nakilon> would be astrole if your tour is between stars
18:28:52 <nakilon> I hate so much that copying from address bar escapes russian letters -- I'm pretty sure they are working in URLs for years already; have to replace them manually when you want to make the URL shorter; would be awesome to have some chrome flag for that
18:31:10 <nakilon> this link is working for all of you in chat, right? https://translate.yandex.ru/?text=гастролировать&lang=ru-en
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18:45:38 <arseniiv> nakilon: works. At least Firefox allows you to copy URIs as is by adding a space at the end and then copying
18:46:08 <arseniiv> don’t know about Chrome, seems not that esoteric a browser :-|
18:48:02 <arseniiv> . o O ( now I see why browsers are that huge: they need to support SVG rendering )
18:48:32 <immibis> SVG is not huge, compared to HTML and CSS. HTML and CSS are not huge, compared to their interaction with JavaScript
18:49:21 <riv> SVG is so cool
18:49:40 <immibis> you can write a webpage in SVG
18:49:54 <immibis> a browser that only supported SVG webpages would probably be smaller than one which only supported HTML
18:50:09 <immibis> SVG tells you where to place each object. there is no layout algorithm
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19:07:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KakkoiiChris * New user account
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19:15:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84862&oldid=84860 * KakkoiiChris * (+166) /* Introductions */
19:16:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84863&oldid=84862 * KakkoiiChris * (+78) /* Introductions */
19:24:56 <zzo38> I made on my computer to never display non-ASCII characters in the address bar. I prefer to use only ASCII it avoids problems with homoglyphs, invisible characters, etc
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19:48:11 <myname> as a german, i wouldn't want to miss the umlauts
19:51:50 <zzo38> Then use the German character encoding, I suppose
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20:00:48 <riv> the square-1 puzzle is evil
20:01:50 <zzo38> What is a square-1 puzzle?
20:03:23 <Koen_> I spent the last 15 minutes trying to get the pun in the sentence "as a german, i wouldn't want to miss the umlauts"
20:03:39 <Koen_> now I read zzo38's sentence just above and realise there is no pun
20:04:40 <myname> not everything has to be a pun
20:05:13 <riv> zzo38, https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVcciDqsX6uwzdtrm08e35exne0v-GEc2lOw&usqp=CAU
20:05:20 <Koen_> I assume you don't live in a country that survived the second world war by making puns on the radio
20:05:40 <Koen_> as a ways to pass secret messages
20:06:06 <Koen_> riv: that's not a square
20:06:09 <Koen_> that's not even a cube!!
20:07:07 <int-e> Koen_: but it's a cube in solved configuration
20:07:35 <int-e> (Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-1_(puzzle))
20:10:12 <riv> https://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/square1d.htm
20:10:32 <riv> this is a graph for the shpes
20:10:39 <riv> but you also need to solve the colors
20:12:43 <arseniiv> riv: I have tried to make some simple procedural art using SVG as an output, that went nicely. Filters and <use> are a good hand though I used just blur filters for shadows. And grouping is indispensible too, so yeah, SVG is a very good format, though rendering a complex document efficiently still seems for me a giant programming task, especially due to filters. So I’m actually glad one can fall back to a browser and test this or that right in jupyt
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20:28:17 <riv> i made a sq1 simulator which produces svg graphics
20:28:50 <riv> https://i.postimg.cc/br7157wX/Screenshot-2021-06-21-21-28-33.png
20:43:52 <zzo38> Ghostscript does not include a SVG output, so if I want to use SVG output with Ghostscript, one way is to produce PDF, and then use a separate program converting PDF into SVG.
20:46:20 <riv> can we convert PS to SVG directly?
20:47:03 <zzo38> It would be possible, although Ghostscript does not currently include this driver. (There may be an unofficial one maybe)
20:47:23 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84864&oldid=70898 * KakkoiiChris * (+1292) /* Minim */
20:47:38 <zzo38> Also would be wanted to detect the approximations of circles it makes in order to convert them to SVG circles, maybe
20:49:15 <zzo38> Another thing might be wanted is if you want to put hyperlinks in the SVG file, then you might want some uses of the pdfmark command to work too
20:49:27 <riv> i didnt know postscript doesn't have circles
20:50:11 <zzo38> It has a command to draw circular arcs, although using this produces an approximation involving Bezier curves instead
20:53:22 <riv> https://spencermortensen.com/articles/bezier-circle/ i see, they are 0.02% off at worst
20:54:28 <zzo38> Yes, although coding them as circles in SVG file would be more efficient than coding the Bezier curves
20:54:42 <riv> I would leave them as bezier curves
20:54:53 <riv> what if someone had done a bezier curve that is close to a circle intentionall
20:55:05 <riv> and it got incorrectl turned into a true circle
20:55:47 <zzo38> Yes, that is a valid point too. (Although I meant it only for the approximations produced by the arc commands in PostScript, not if you made your own)
20:56:30 <zzo38> PostScript has a command to iterate a path and that requires that it uses Bezier curves rather than circular arcs, although modifying the PostScript interpreter could be done to check specifically if you use the commands for circular arcs
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23:45:37 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84868&oldid=84864 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* 99 Bottles */ CatstaC
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00:57:15 <zzo38> Another way to produce SVG from PostScript might be to import a file which redefines the drawing commands to inspect the graphics state and output the proper SVG commands to make the drawing.
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03:09:36 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84869&oldid=84728 * PolySaken * (+855) Update to latest version
03:11:49 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84870&oldid=84869 * PolySaken * (-106)
03:17:14 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84871&oldid=84870 * PolySaken * (+256)
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06:21:24 <nakilon> there was some talk about sudoku
06:21:31 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/c/CrackingTheCryptic/videos
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07:04:30 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4sLAQvEH-M&t=0s
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08:44:28 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84874&oldid=84873 * PolySaken * (-18)
08:48:18 <esolangs> [[Category:Usable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84875 * PolySaken * (+0) Created blank page
08:50:05 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84876&oldid=84874 * PolySaken * (-51)
08:53:07 <esolangs> [[Stax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84877&oldid=83001 * Cameron * (+0) Document.html amended to document.html
09:10:54 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84878&oldid=84876 * PolySaken * (+463) add missing commands
09:34:02 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84879&oldid=84878 * PolySaken * (+118)
09:37:23 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84880&oldid=84879 * PolySaken * (+69) /* Execution */
09:38:58 <esolangs> [[Seed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84881&oldid=81624 * Salpynx * (+4) Link to funge-98
09:40:59 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84882&oldid=84880 * PolySaken * (+105) /* Memory */
09:56:14 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84883&oldid=84710 * PolySaken * (+109) add Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss
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10:31:24 <esolangs> [[Timers]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84884 * Rphii * (+6531) Created
10:32:21 <nakilon> I don't get it https://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#Befunge-93
10:32:47 <nakilon> the first one looks like an infinite loop -- it dups twice, then prints and jumps, repeats
10:33:02 <nakilon> the second one prints every input twice
10:36:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84885&oldid=84843 * Rphii * (+13) /* T */ added Timers
10:37:34 <salpynx> first one seems to work as advertised: https://tio.run/##S0pNK81LT9W1NNYtqAQz//9XU7ayitdzUP7/34ALAA
10:41:06 <salpynx> The underscore is a horizontal if, and changes the direction if the input is 1
10:43:52 <salpynx> {1}#:: {reverse} :: . :: . :: . {repeat}
10:44:14 <nakilon> I thought it should ask again
10:46:03 <salpynx> It's a simple test program form to show how looping and a simple conditional work. Makes more sense for very low level languages where demonstrating anything is a challenge, and is a step up from Hello World
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11:12:03 <b_jonas> I was told that even though swedish "ö" and norwegian "ø" are basically the same letter with a different shape, the same is not at all true for swedish "ä" versus norwegian "æ". I think this is something I should have noticed, but every time I saw something that pointed to it, I just assumed it's because norwegian spells everything weird.
11:12:42 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84886&oldid=84884 * Rphii * (+161) /* Multiple Timers I */ fix mistake in comments
11:13:40 <b_jonas> This still means that the swedish alphabet and the norwegian/danish alphabet has letters in a different order, because swedish has "å" before "ö" but norwegian has "ø" before "å", which is still worrying
11:13:51 <b_jonas> but a bit less worrying than before
11:14:55 <b_jonas> because now I can hope that only "ö" or "ø" is in the wrong place
11:16:59 <b_jonas> of course it's still possible that a lot of letters are in the wrong place in all of those alphabets, but that's possible in a lot of alphabets
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11:42:07 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84887&oldid=84701 * Rphii * (+11)
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13:11:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DragonFighter603 * New user account
13:15:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84888&oldid=84863 * DragonFighter603 * (+238) first entry - hope i did everything right!!!
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13:18:10 <esolangs> [[User:DragonFighter603]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84889 * DragonFighter603 * (+237) hi, im here!
13:21:29 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84890 * DragonFighter603 * (+18) Created page with "Start of the page!"
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13:24:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84891&oldid=84885 * DragonFighter603 * (+30) added GridJSON
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14:46:17 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84892&oldid=84890 * DragonFighter603 * (+125)
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15:15:10 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84893&oldid=84886 * Rphii * (+0) /* Calculator */ fix mistake in code
15:46:32 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84894&oldid=84892 * DragonFighter603 * (+3457)
15:47:40 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84895&oldid=84894 * DragonFighter603 * (+46)
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18:15:44 <nakilon> are there [Usable for programming] languages simplier than Brainfuck?
18:18:12 <b_jonas> nakilon: that might depend on what you count as simpler, but probably so. bitfuck (brainfuck with just 0 or 1 values in each cell) or Bitfuck without - is arguably simpler.
18:18:43 <b_jonas> some might consider SK combinator calculus simpler
18:18:59 <int-e> or lambda calculus
18:20:00 <int-e> I don't know anybody who can program combinatory logic directly... personally I can only do it through abstraction elimination.
18:20:00 <b_jonas> then there's some weird ones that ais523 invented, most notably Last ReSort and Three Star Programmer
18:20:17 <b_jonas> int-e: or an interpreter, I assume
18:20:33 <b_jonas> I mean an interpreter for a higher level language implemented in combinatory logic
18:20:45 <int-e> The thing is, lambda calculus *is* fairly programmable, mainly because you get a usable form of abstraction.
18:21:16 <int-e> where let x = y in z translates to (\x -> z) y
18:22:15 <nakilon> I'm just looking for a language to implement fully in rasel, but brainfuck needs at least two stacks -- data and code
18:22:33 <nakilon> idk how fizzie made his one
18:23:35 <nakilon> I could store one stack on even indices and another one on odd though, lol
18:24:48 <fizzie> I just use the playfield, both for the code and data. And the (Befunge) stack just has two things: the execution pointer and the data pointer.
18:25:11 <int-e> . o O ( you have rational numbers, maybe translate from generalized Collatz functions? )
18:26:04 <b_jonas> nakilon: Rasel has arbitrary precision integers, and now also random access to its stack. so I suggest implementing The Waterfall Model, either as a translator by encoding the matrix into the program text, or by having the matrix on the stack
18:26:45 <b_jonas> nakilon: implementing a translator from Blindfolded arithmetic should be easier, or just a direct translator from a multi-stack machine with fixed sized alphabet for the stacks
18:27:26 <b_jonas> you have infinite code space and nopfunge's directional commands, so implementing arbitrary control flow shouldn't be hard, you can just do non-blindfolded arithmetic
18:29:21 <int-e> The main point is... since random access into the stack is so awkward, exploiting bignums to get unbounded storage seems like the easier route to go. And then all you need is a formalism that's easy to implement with bignums. Minsky machines are another obvious candidate.
18:30:12 <nakilon> what was the command to print the link to the wiki
18:31:15 <nakilon> I imagine it would be nice if you could put some markers inside your messages so bot would append the links because I have to copypaste your suggested languages names into google ..D
18:31:58 <nakilon> like: ... so I suggest implementing [wiki The Waterfall Model], either as a ...
18:32:54 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, you can just translate from a multi-stack machine with three stacks of bits with arbitrary finite control
18:33:30 <b_jonas> you might still have to use Rasel's pokeswap instruction to access a fixed sized Rasel stack, but that's not not really random access
18:34:02 <int-e> b_jonas: there's only one stack though? or are you using bitnums... in which case, yes, you can do that
18:44:11 <b_jonas> int-e: three bignums in three elements of the Rasel stack simulate three stacks of bits each
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18:44:18 <b_jonas> you encode the stack of bits as a single binary number
18:44:27 <b_jonas> Rasel can work with any base
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18:45:34 <b_jonas> to push 0, you multiply the number by 2; to push 1, you multiply the number by 2 and add 1; to pop, you take modulo 1, dup the reminder, use one copy to subtract it from the bignum before dividing by 2, then the other copy for a conditional jump
18:45:47 <b_jonas> and those are the only operations you need, apart from perhaps some IO
18:46:43 <b_jonas> you connect the program states with control flow by adding befunge style arrow paths
18:47:43 <b_jonas> the Rasel stack will have to temporarily grow to a bit larger than 3 for that bignum arithmetic, but you restore it to just the three bignums between each step
18:48:12 <b_jonas> you have to store them on the stack because Rasel doesn't offer much else for storage
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18:48:30 <b_jonas> you do have some choice between this and using random access on a larger stack
18:50:00 <b_jonas> but a longer stack doesn't really help for translating a multi-stack machine
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18:59:38 <arseniiv> so hot here :( I’d wish that was exploited somehow
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19:00:16 <arseniiv> can’t make myself write synth code and hear what sound it makes
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19:10:15 <esolangs> [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84896&oldid=79483 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) It was based on JS
19:25:55 <lambdabot> (Monad m, ?f::(m (m a) -> m a) -> t1 -> t2, ?g::t1) => t2
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20:49:20 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84897&oldid=84882 * PolySaken * (+9)
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21:24:40 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84898&oldid=84897 * PolySaken * (+1008) add errors
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22:06:25 <nakilon> made a simple tests implementation so I don't need to start another bot instance to just test if reply works
22:08:20 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84899&oldid=84898 * PolySaken * (+444) update examples
22:09:31 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84900&oldid=84899 * PolySaken * (+59) /* Examples */
22:09:56 <nakilon> so b_jonas mentioned [wiki bitfuck] then there is probably a [wiki user:ais523] page then [wiki Last ReSort], [wiki Three Star Programmer], [wiki FRACTRAN] and maybe [wiki The Waterfall Model] and also [wiki Blindfolded]
22:10:01 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitfuck https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Last ReSort https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three Star Programmer https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran https://esolangs.org/wiki/The Waterfall Model https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded arithmetic
22:12:15 <nakilon> it should be able to search [wiki random stuff] in text too
22:12:36 <nakilon> it should be able to search [wiki something] in text too
22:13:06 <nakilon> ah, nope, need another wiki api endpoint, I'll add it
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22:15:23 <fungot> https://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
22:15:51 <salpynx> is another good target for TC proofs, but not very usable. Comparable to the Waterfall model though
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22:16:50 <fungot> https://esolangs.org/wiki/something
22:17:18 <salpynx> [wiki BCT] is comparable to [wiki The_Waterfall_Model] for [wiki TC] proofs
22:17:21 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
22:19:47 <salpynx> I see, it checks for the existence of the page before providing a link (why TC didn't work), and didn't recognise underscores as spaces for TWM
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22:23:20 <fizzie> I'm confused by the syntax, because usually when people link to articles on-channel, they use [[Internal Links]], not [external-links-except-not-even-a-URL].
22:23:44 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, but in the end I still just recommend a three-stack machine with two symbol alphabet (or possibly a three-counter Minskey machine if you are into that) for the stacks and arbitrary control flow, assuming you want to translate to Rasel rather than have a universal interpreter in Rasel, and those are classical models of computation that we don't have specific pages about on the esowiki,
22:23:50 <b_jonas> though they're mentioned often at reduction proofs about particular esolangs
22:25:42 <b_jonas> well we do have a https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine page
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22:27:39 <b_jonas> nakilon: do you want just a translation to Rasel, or a universal interpreter in Rasel with a fixed program that gets the interpreted program as input?
22:28:13 <esolangs> [[User:PolySaken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84901&oldid=84719 * PolySaken * (+124)
22:31:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84902&oldid=79446 * PolySaken * (+37) /* Paradigm */
22:32:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84903&oldid=84902 * PolySaken * (+29) /* Paradigm */
22:33:49 <esolangs> [[Category:Prototype-based paradigm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84904 * PolySaken * (+179) Created page with "Languages that use a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#Class-based_vs_prototype-based Prototype-Based] approach to OOP rather than a class-based appro..."
22:34:49 <nakilon> mediawiki escaping is weird
22:35:04 <nakilon> it escapes ' ' but not '?'
22:35:39 <nakilon> oh no, it escapes '?', anyway
22:38:10 <nakilon> fizzie that would need to blacklist esolangs bot explicitely to ignore the changelogs and actually people can use [[...]]] syntax for other purposes in messages, like to show a nested array
22:40:18 <nakilon> (or 1 dimensional array in Mathematica)
22:41:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84905&oldid=84891 * PolySaken * (+36) /* C */ add Clart
22:41:44 <b_jonas> you can always use <nowiki>...</nowiki> when you want to have a lot of literal brackets
22:43:12 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84906&oldid=84900 * PolySaken * (-26)
22:43:24 <nakilon> hoping that people won't chat about triple nested arrays
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22:45:28 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84907&oldid=84906 * PolySaken * (+51)
22:46:32 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84908&oldid=84907 * PolySaken * (+30)
22:49:23 <b_jonas> nakilon: what do you mean? I just mentioned three-star programmer earlier. what would be a better triple nested array than that?
22:49:24 -!- Thelie has joined.
22:49:52 <b_jonas> but note that triple-nested arrays don't actually confuse mediawiki markup, because they don't have "[[" anywhere
22:51:31 <b_jonas> that's why C and C++ could agree to standardize "[[" for new style attributes, even though that's sort of silly in the https://xkcd.com/927/ sort of way, because there were already two or three vendor-specific attribute syntax that are general enough that they could just be supported by other compilers and standardized
22:52:23 <b_jonas> it can technically clash with C++ lambda syntax, but only in weird code that probably nobody ever wrote in the real world before attribute syntax was invented
22:52:41 <nakilon> heh, there is wiki article "???" but it doesn't show up in search results
22:52:56 <nakilon> if you search by "???" on search page
22:53:00 <b_jonas> and it might clash with objective C syntax I think
22:53:59 <nakilon> b_jonas I don't talk about mediawiki markup, I'm saying about IRC bot automatic linking
22:54:01 <b_jonas> but, you know, C++ syntax has or had like twenty different syntax ambiguities that actually sometimes come up in real programs, and this isn't one
22:54:15 <b_jonas> nakilon: IRC bot automatic linking? I don't particularly like that
22:54:55 <b_jonas> if it's looking inside messages that is, not just an invocation at the start like HackEso commands
22:55:06 <nakilon> why would I want to go to esolang wiki site and then copypaste titles from chat to search field if I could just click it here
22:55:08 <b_jonas> wait, velik actually does that?
22:55:28 <b_jonas> one star programmer, two star programmer [wiki three star programmer], four star programmer
22:55:29 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three Star Programmer
22:55:35 <b_jonas> oh there's no way we can't bot loop that
22:55:36 <nakilon> 01:09:56 <nakilon> so b_jonas mentioned [wiki bitfuck] then there is probably a [wiki user:ais523] page then [wiki Last ReSort], [wiki Three Star Programmer], [wiki FRACTRAN] and maybe [wiki The Waterfall Model] and also [wiki Blindfolded]
22:55:39 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitfuck https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Last ReSort https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three Star Programmer https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran plus plus https://esolangs.org/wiki/The Waterfall Model https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded Arithmetic
22:56:08 <nakilon> do bots react on messages starting with https://?
22:56:47 <b_jonas> maybe this is something that is only bad if more than one bot does it, so it's irresponsible but not immediately bad?
22:57:01 <b_jonas> I mean [wiki fungot] reacts obviously
22:57:01 <fungot> b_jonas: ok so not quite " rendering"
22:57:02 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungot
22:57:20 <b_jonas> not to that, no, because he doesn't like to be called Fungot
22:57:56 <fungot> nakilon: maybe their dns system just became " aware" of them rather than " yo estoy bueno. but
22:58:18 <b_jonas> yes, fungot's chatter is hard to bot loop
23:00:07 <b_jonas> fungot: because no bot before velik was listening to lines that start with "mr. president,", that's why
23:00:07 <fungot> b_jonas: dunno, it seems different :) i.e. bending a verb when an existing verb works perfectly well.
23:03:18 <b_jonas> perlbot learn function https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three can has [wiki Three Star Programmer]
23:03:18 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored function https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three as [wiki Three Star Programmer]
23:03:26 <b_jonas> [wiki three star programmer]
23:03:35 -!- delta23 has joined.
23:03:42 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three Star Programmer
23:03:56 <b_jonas> you need to invoke perlbot by name on this channel
23:04:22 <b_jonas> perlbot forget https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three
23:04:23 <perlbot> b_jonas: Forgot https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three
23:05:27 <b_jonas> and I can't just put square brackets into a wiki article title, mediawiki explicitly bans them
23:05:39 <b_jonas> (and even if you could, they'd be escaped in the URL)
23:05:57 <b_jonas> well I'll have to remember this when the second such bot comes up
23:06:28 <salpynx> `! befunge98 r #:,_@#:"[wiki Funge-98]"
23:06:30 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funge-98
23:06:35 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funge-98
23:08:29 <b_jonas> or third, if fungоt counts
23:08:43 <b_jonas> I mean technically there was the bridge too
23:09:11 <b_jonas> but I might not have been allowed to botloop that
23:10:13 <nakilon> 02:03:36 <velik> thread error -- I guess this was esolang wiki ddos prevention because there were two search requests in parallel, but I'm not sure
23:11:45 <nakilon> if I scroll the server stdout logs up the screen with hang the process and it will disconnect, lol, while file logs are formatted in base64 and I didn't make reader yet
23:13:25 <b_jonas> how about [wiki wiki:Three star programmer]
23:16:13 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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23:19:07 <nakilon> you mean [wiki:Three...] ?
23:19:34 <nakilon> finally I've found SO the break their code formatter over the years https://stackoverflow.com/a/547133/322020
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23:38:47 <b_jonas> nakilon: one wiki to invoke velik, one wiki as an interwiki prefix that the esowiki would resolve
23:38:56 <b_jonas> except it doesn't do that when you *search*
23:39:02 <b_jonas> which is why I guess this failed
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23:43:48 <nakilon> what about [befunge] and then in the end of the message you say /wiki
23:44:49 <nakilon> btw I fixed escapings: search with spaces [wiki bitwise cyclic tag], users [wiki user:nakilon], ignore dups [wiki user:nakilon], in text [wiki nakilon], weird chars [wiki created by Stack Exchange users]
23:44:53 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise%20Cyclic%20Tag https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Nakilon https://esolangs.org/wiki/Velik https://esolangs.org/wiki/%3F%3F%3F
23:45:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84909&oldid=84905 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) /* Non-alphabetic */ Please stop putting Alphabetic languages in the Non Alphabetic section
23:46:57 <salpynx> `! befunge98 [wiki Funge-98..]#
23:46:58 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funge-98
23:47:28 <HackEso> 0 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77 0 8 9 77
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00:39:36 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I was told that even though swedish "ö" and norwegian "ø" are basically the same letter with a different shape, the same is not at all true for swedish "ä" versus norwegian "æ". I think this is something I should have noticed, but every time I saw something that pointed to it, I just assumed it's because norwegian spells everything weird.
00:40:04 <oerjan> i haven't heard of it, and looking at wikipedia's letter histories that doesn't fit.
00:40:38 <oerjan> æ and ä are both modifications of ae
00:41:12 <esolangs> [[Clart]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84910 * PolySaken * (+8176) Created page with " '''Clart''' is an object-oriented mildly esoteric programming language designed and implemented by [[User:PolySaken]]. == Overview == Clart programs are composed of instruc..."
00:41:30 <oerjan> ö is a modification of oe, and ø _might_ also be, there are two theories on the wikipedia page, the other suggests ø is from anglo-saxon oi
00:42:45 <oerjan> so if those are the theories, then if anything it's ø and ö which are different. of course they are _used_ equivalently, and in fact older norwegian/danish sometimes used ö instead of ø (also from wikipedia)
00:43:15 <oerjan> *if those are the plausible theories
00:44:06 <oerjan> (i'd heard before that umlaut is from e, and æ is pretty transparent, so it's only really ø i doubt, like wikipedia.)
00:50:23 <oerjan> also according to wikipedia, old norse used æ rather than ä, so swedish borrowed the latter from german later. i think it may be similar with ø and ö, although i didn't find that explicitly.
00:53:59 <oerjan> (although it's mentioned that old icelandic used ø.)
00:54:56 <oerjan> oh i suppose that's also a form of old norse. so the swedish letters are newer overall.
00:56:23 <esolangs> [[Clart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84911&oldid=84910 * PolySaken * (+1044)
00:59:12 <oerjan> as for why the alphabet orders are different, i don't really know but it's probably essentially because danish and swedish developed their spellings independently, during a time when relations were less friendly. norway was part of the danish kingdom then, and norwegian bokmål started out as adapted danish.
01:02:01 <oerjan> the use of å in danish/norwegian was iirc part of a reform to decrease the spelling differences around 1900 (when relations had got more friendly and possibly when norway was part of the _swedish_ kingdom)
01:02:24 <oerjan> before that, danish/norwegian used aa
01:04:00 <oerjan> (norway separated from sweden in 1905 so not sure which happened first)
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01:05:54 <oerjan> (for completeness, norway transfered from denmark to sweden in 1814 as a result of sweden and denmark choosing winning and losing sides in the napoleonic wars respectively (despite sweden's king being a former _general_ of napoleon)
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01:08:08 <ais523> b_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Last_Resort isn't known to be Turing-complete, you're thinking of the https://esolangs.org/wiki/I/D_machine
01:08:33 <ais523> also, I notice someone made a new category, contrary to policy, and am not sure what to do about it
01:08:51 <ais523> presumably, either delete it or add Feather to it, as it's looking a little empty at the moment
01:09:13 <oerjan> b_jonas: oh! of course the å being added later to danish/norwegian is an _explanation_ for why it's last in those alphabets.
01:09:44 <oerjan> although the other two are still reversed as well.
01:09:48 <ais523> also, both The Waterfall Model and BCT are easier to program in than "deliberately obnoxious" esolangs are, they're just very low-level
01:09:53 <ais523> but they can both be plausibly written by hand
01:09:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84912&oldid=83973 * PolySaken * (+402)
01:10:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Abethel * New user account
01:11:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84913&oldid=84912 * Ais523 * (+439) /* Category Proposal: 'Impossible To Implement' as Subset of unimplemented */ pretty much already exists
01:11:40 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think I was thinking of I/D machine in particular
01:11:58 <b_jonas> but I understand that Last Resort is the wrong example
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01:12:51 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/2C has been pretty good for me in terms of being easy to prove things TC with, too
01:13:07 <b_jonas> "of course they are _used_ equivalently" => that is what I care about here, how the letters etymologically correspond in the spelling of different languges, rather than how the glyphs were invented
01:14:07 <esolangs> [[Clart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84914&oldid=84911 * PolySaken * (+59)
01:15:02 <oerjan> not sure what that means.
01:15:05 <ais523> the I/D machine is good for proving things TC if they have random-access memory, https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Amnesiac_From_Minsk or The Waterfall Model for counters (or things that can be made to simulate counters), 2C for string- and queue-based languages
01:16:47 <oerjan> incidentally, danish and norwegian use æ fairly differently. in norwegian, it's pretty much always _pronounced_ [æ], unlike in danish. (and swedish ä is also more variable.)
01:17:29 <oerjan> so it's not clear that etymological correspondence gets any simpler than glyph histories.
01:17:56 <ais523> oh, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Stun_Step is another good example of something that's more or less directly "simpler" than BF
01:18:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: I mean the words that have "å" in swedish will usually have an etymologically related word in norwegian that is usually also spelled with an "å" ("två" vs "to" notwithstanding) and backwards for norwegian words with an "å"; and swedish words with "ö" will usually have an etymologically related word in norwegian that is spelled with an "ø" and backwards; but the same is generally not true
01:18:12 <b_jonas> for swedish words spelled with an "ä"
01:19:16 <oerjan> yes, norwegian often uses e where danish uses æ or swedish ä
01:19:32 <oerjan> especially in front of r.
01:20:08 <ais523> you can also go simpler than cyclic tag: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Echo_Tag
01:21:14 * nakilon understands near nothing about the computational classes
01:21:59 <b_jonas> ais523: well ok, but 2C is one that would be particularly unsuitable for implementing in Rasel
01:22:15 <b_jonas> which was the original question
01:22:15 <ais523> I'm not sure what Rasel is like, so I'm just talking in general terms
01:23:08 <b_jonas> perhaps I'm wrong in that and you can do some funny Gödel arithmetic magic thing while representing the whole string as a single bignum
01:23:11 <oerjan> b_jonas: when i looked into swedish phonology a while i discovered one important reason: unlike norwegian, swedish distinguishes open and closed e as long vowel phonemes, written ä and e respectively. (overall, swedish vowel spelling is more logical than norwegian.)
01:23:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84915&oldid=84888 * Abethel * (+458) Introduce myself
01:23:22 <nakilon> google has a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_results_page#Featured_Snippets from esolang wiki
01:23:30 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/IBNjxbN.png
01:24:05 <ais523> hmm, I assume this thing (Rasel) has an unboundedly large playfield/program space, but it only ever contains the program the user entered, so the size is fixed for any given program
01:24:27 <oerjan> (short e is always open in both languages. oh and swedish regularly turns open e into [æ] before r.)
01:24:58 <b_jonas> ais523: that is correct for the code space; the data space is the Rasel stack and it can grow unbounded both in depth of stack and how large the contained numbers are
01:25:21 <b_jonas> and I call it "stack" but you can actually random access it
01:25:57 <ais523> my first thought is to compile Mini-Flak into Rasel, but we don't actually have an article about Mini-Flak yet
01:26:01 <ais523> so I'm planning to write one
01:26:46 <b_jonas> I haven't heard of that one, but we also don't actually have an article specifically about two/three stack machines with arbitrary finite control
01:26:51 <fizzie> I mean, it's just MediaWiki, I'm not surprised Google indexer can extract good snippets from it in theory. I'm just blown away by the idea that we're the featured snippet for a query like "computational classes". Though not quite as blown away as I'd be if that was the case for "computational class" too.
01:26:55 <nakilon> there was a flak cannon in ut2004
01:27:43 <ais523> there are adverts for our Esolang wiki running on Stack Exchange, and none of us put them there
01:28:27 <ais523> "Want to find a programming language that's – unique? – hard to use? – just plain weird? Esolang – the esoteric programming language wiki"
01:29:42 <fizzie> Weird. Well, at least our Google search performance hasn't really improved lately. We have an average search result position of 20, an average CTR of 0.9% and generally somewhere in the order of 10 daily clicks.
01:29:54 <b_jonas> ais523: on which Stack Exchange site? there's a meta post in each SE site where those advertisments are defined, and they have history like normal posts so we can tell who put the adverts there
01:30:03 <fizzie> (And the most popular query is still "intcode".)
01:30:03 <ais523> b_jonas: code golf and coding challenges, unsurprisingly
01:30:49 <b_jonas> yeah, I shouldn've guessed that, though the other possibility is Stack Overflow to keep esolang stuff away from it like we keep them away from en.wikipedia
01:31:23 <b_jonas> https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/23544/6691
01:31:32 <fizzie> Also on the top list is the very clearly organic search query `inurl:logs intext:get https:// ext:txt intext:password intext:username` which brings up this (well, the previous) channel's logs from 2013-05-22.
01:31:39 <nakilon> damn, I didn't know their formatting doesn't replace newlines with spaces https://github.com/topics/esolang
01:32:22 <ais523> fizzie: that is organic, I think, in that the people searching for that do care about the results
01:32:37 <ais523> …probably this explains the low click-through rate, as we're a false positive for it :-D
01:32:39 <Corbin> ais523: Is there a possible path to explaining complexity classes for nakilon and others in a way that would let us get beyond mere Turing-completeness?
01:33:16 <ais523> Corbin: well, classes beyond TC are quite hard to define, as you're talking about something that we believe can't exist, so it's starting to get into the realm of philosophy rather than programming
01:33:19 <Corbin> I know that that's your focus, but I would very much like a P/BQP/PP/CSP/NP fine-grained explainer page.
01:33:22 <b_jonas> Corbin: that sounds like two different problems clumped together
01:33:37 <esolangs> [[User:PolySaken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84916&oldid=84901 * PolySaken * (+511)
01:33:38 <Corbin> Oh, I wanted to go down, not up, sorry. "Beyond" was a poorly-chosen word.
01:34:24 <b_jonas> Corbin: one about explaining what complexity classes are and all the lots of basic stuff theorems taught about them; and learning about complexity classes more powerful than turing-complete
01:36:07 <b_jonas> if you want to do the first one at your own time, then there's Aho, Ullman, "The Theory of Parsing, Translation, and Compiling", (1972; ISBN 0139145567)
01:36:52 <Corbin> I'm just wondering if there's a better option than directly linking to the Complexity Zoo.
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01:39:56 <b_jonas> Corbin: yes, the zoo is a reference, not a textbook
01:40:30 <nakilon> there is this meme https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/56b609a3cd4b463f683e912b2e191320.jpg
01:40:43 <b_jonas> textbooks are Aho–Ullman or David Madore's (scrambles to find the link)
01:40:44 <nakilon> it says: "too complex, goodbye :)"
01:40:59 <b_jonas> course notes http://perso.enst.fr/~madore/inf105/notes-inf105.pdf linked from http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2017-11-10.2477.html
01:40:59 <nakilon> it's what I think when I take a look at the articles you link
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01:42:52 <b_jonas> but these two are not the right introduction if you care about complexity classes more potent than Turing-complete
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01:43:41 <b_jonas> unless you want only NR the class of recursively enumerable languages, which is an important class on its own
01:44:21 <esolangs> [[Clart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84917&oldid=84914 * PolySaken * (+24)
01:44:22 <Corbin> b_jonas: I just think that the wording on the wiki could be simpler.
01:45:36 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Computational_class ? \
01:45:41 <b_jonas> I don't think I've ever tried to read that one
01:47:21 <Corbin> TIL that page. Never mind! This is good.
01:48:41 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84918&oldid=84883 * PolySaken * (+73)
01:49:07 * oerjan is annoyed that putty doesn't seem to have a reliable solution to ssh session disconnecting (the keepalive setting sometimes doesn't help, and according to docs can make things _worse_ in some cases.)
01:50:10 <oerjan> and of course a web search turns up suggestions to turn on keepalive as if i hadn't already.
01:51:42 <esolangs> [[Mini-Flak]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84919 * Ais523 * (+3301) this could do with an article; start with just a basic specification (a longer article would certainly be possible but I don't want to write it right now)
01:52:38 <ais523> Corbin: for categories below TC, I think the one we care most about at Esolang are finite-state and push-down automaton
01:53:48 <oerjan> linear bounded sometimes comes up too
01:54:02 <ais523> which are both related to memory restrictions: finite-state languages have only a finite amount of memory, and push-down automata have only a finite amount of memory + one unbounded stack, where each element of the stack is drawn from a set of finitely many possibilities
01:54:03 <Corbin> ais523: This is understandable. I care most about P vs NP, but that is probably just my obsession with performance.
01:54:40 <ais523> P and NP are a bit subtle because they require you to define the "size of the problem" you're working on
01:54:54 <ais523> and depending on the details of that definition you can get different results
01:55:08 <ais523> but a sensible way to define it is to talk about the number of bits/bytes (doesn't matter) of input that's given to the program
01:55:42 <ais523> then, a language in P says that the execution time of any program in the language must be bounded by some polynomial of the size of the input
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01:56:06 <Corbin> Yeah. But it'd be nice to make it clear to users. To use a non-esoteric example, CHR is solidly in NP under our current understanding, because it's built on CSP.
01:56:20 <ais523> (and "P-complete" would mean that the language is in P, and also is capable of expressing any program that can be written in any language in P)
01:56:47 <ais523> NP is weird, and easier to understand than it is to explain it to someone else, which doesn't help much with teaching it
01:56:47 <Corbin> Yes. Again with a non-esoteric example, Pola is P-complete.
01:57:40 <ais523> oh, there was an article for Mini-Flak already, just spelled differently
01:58:09 <ais523> mine's better :-P I'm going to make the old one into a redirect and merge the example program
01:59:49 <b_jonas> "CHR is solidly in NP under our current understanding, because it's built on CSP." => am I just too tired to understand this? what are "CHR" and "CSP"?
02:00:07 <esolangs> [[Mini-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84920&oldid=84919 * Ais523 * (+111) merge content from [[Miniflak]], which I didn't realise existed until after I'd written this (given that most sources for the language spell its name with a hyphen)
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02:00:35 <esolangs> [[Mini-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84921&oldid=84920 * Ais523 * (+28) merge the cats too
02:00:38 <Corbin> CHR, Constraint Handling Rules, is a mainstream logic proglang. It's usually found as an embedded DSL.
02:01:26 <Corbin> CSP is Constraint Satisfaction Problems. This class sits between P and NP and contains problems like whether a Datalog database satisfies an input query.
02:01:38 <esolangs> [[Miniflak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84922&oldid=50951 * Ais523 * (-802) merging into [[Mini-Flak]] (an independently created article about the same language, with the more commonly used spelling for its name)
02:02:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84923&oldid=84909 * Ais523 * (+1) /* M */ correct the spelling of [[Mini-Flak]] to the more commonly used spelling
02:03:00 <b_jonas> ais523: that scared me for a moment, just on account of being a small TC language that uses multiple different kinds of brackets in its source code, but no, it doesn't seem to be related to Consumer Society
02:03:23 <Corbin> No worries. Sorry for using so many acronyms.
02:03:50 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84924&oldid=83635 * Nakilon * (+166) added link to a translator from brainfuck to rasel
02:06:45 <nakilon> * Ais523 * (+28) merge the cats too
02:06:49 <ais523> The Waterfall Model should compile into RASEL pretty easily too, I think, thinking about it
02:07:19 <ais523> The Whirlpool Model even more easily; I'm not sure I ever proved that one TC
02:07:31 <b_jonas> ais523: I thought of that first, but I think a multiple-stack machine with finite control actually maps better
02:08:18 <b_jonas> ais523: Whirlpool Model? that doesn't even seem to be defined on the wiki under that name
02:08:35 <ais523> (Whirlpool is Waterfall with the restriction that the command table is cyclically symmetric, i.e. the effect of stack a zeroing on stack b is constant for any value of a-b (mod the number of counters)
02:08:47 <ais523> yes, I haven't talked about it yet
02:08:57 <b_jonas> or maybe something is wrong with how I search, because "Whirlpool" should at least find something about the trintercal unary operator
02:09:35 <ais523> oddly that operator isn't named as "whirlpool" in the https://esolangs.org/wiki/TriINTERCAL article
02:09:50 <b_jonas> oh, TriIntercal with two is
02:10:40 <b_jonas> ais523: that doesn't mention "bookworm" either. our wiki's documentation about intercal and triintercal is rather lacking
02:10:50 <ais523> the problem with The Whirlpool Model is that it's hard to make an article about it that's more interesting than "this is The Waterfall Model with this one restriction"
02:10:57 <ais523> unless you have a TCness proof, and I don't
02:11:14 <b_jonas> ais523: then don't make a separate article, just mention it in the article about the Waterfall Model
02:11:44 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84925&oldid=84893 * Rphii * (+148) /* Examples */ add factorial example
02:11:47 <ais523> (oerjan and I have a TCness proof for the case where counters go down 2 at a time rather than 1, and we only trigger on zero counters not negative counters, but that's much easier to prove)
02:11:50 <nakilon> there should be a language that calls some web api to check current stars and planet position to decide how to execute
02:12:11 <ais523> why need a web API, other than possibly one that detects changes to the rotation of the Earth?
02:12:28 <ais523> the positions of planets and stars are believed to be very predictable, so you can just implement it in your program
02:12:47 <nakilon> oh it can take current time actually and calculate their positions
02:12:49 <b_jonas> ooh, make it only work if you have GPS hardware connected to correct for that, that's more reliable (though more restrictive too) than a web API
02:12:59 <ais523> but, the rotation of the Earth does sometimes change in measurable but unpredictable ways, which is why we need a central time database to tell us when the leap seconds are
02:13:18 <ais523> (not by very *much*, but enough that we can measure it)
02:13:52 <nakilon> you can integrate it with the real telescope but it would have pretty low performance
02:14:13 <b_jonas> that's even more restrictive
02:14:31 <nakilon> and the behaviour of the runtime will be more defined at night rather than in day or if it's cloudy
02:14:50 <b_jonas> you can get a GPS signal in much more places and times than observe anything useful with a telescope
02:15:09 <ais523> I was working on an esolang a while back, which works like this: we have a high-quality PRNG (with known seed) which defines an infinite universe of non-overlapping 3D objects, drawn from a particular set, in random positions and orientations
02:15:27 <ais523> the objects are reflective
02:15:42 <ais523> and a program is a starting position and direction for a laser beam somewhere in that infinite universe, which bounces off the objects
02:15:42 <b_jonas> in particular, because of some stupid technical reasons for how current computer hardware works, we usually prefer to put computers inside buildings or at least covered by a ceiling
02:15:54 <ais523> but, I abandoned it because I couldn't make it TC, and it isn't interesting unless it's TC
02:15:58 <b_jonas> you can get GPS signal in many buildings, but you can't always see then sun from inside them
02:16:13 <nakilon> sounds like something to run on RTX
02:16:53 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, that reminds me to a MathOverflow question
02:16:54 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84926&oldid=84925 * Rphii * (+144) /* Commands */ explicitly said that inlining is possible
02:17:37 <nakilon> b_jonas I would say it's ok if the language works only under sky, it's like a biological life that prefers the surface of the planet
02:17:37 <ais523> prepositions translate so badly between languages
02:18:38 <nakilon> it's literally an environment
02:18:52 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84927&oldid=84926 * Rphii * (+11) /* Factorial */ add a newline after printing result
02:19:07 <b_jonas> https://mathoverflow.net/q/156344/5340
02:19:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I know that particular one, because it's a mistake that others kept pointing out to me, so I learned it
02:20:31 <ais523> I assume it's "remind to" in Hungarian?
02:20:32 <b_jonas> and if I think about it, "of" still sounds wrong
02:20:55 <ais523> "remind to" can be valid in English, but only if the thing you're being reminded of is an action you need to take right now
02:21:02 <ais523> e.g. an alarm clock reminds you to wake up
02:21:04 <Corbin> ais523: I think it depends on the objects. There are some fractal surfaces which can exhibit self-reflection. It would be interesting if we could show that we could decide if a given fractal's got divergent patches of surface area.
02:21:17 <b_jonas> ais523: is that only with a verb infinitive after "to"?
02:21:19 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84928&oldid=84927 * Rphii * (-102) /* Numbers */ the ?-number is good
02:21:24 <b_jonas> and to your question, at least it's closer to "remind to"
02:23:20 <b_jonas> Hungarian has twelve common noun cases that come up all the time with various different meanings, and they don't map all that well to English prepositions, except for the unmarked nominative case which is more or less than same as English subject position
02:24:01 <ais523> hmm, so the original is some form of dative?
02:24:19 <b_jonas> the second is for what English calls direct objects, one miscellaneous one, and then a table of 3x3 that most overtly mean from, from on, from in, at, on, in, to, onto, into
02:24:21 <ais523> that makes a lot of sense actually
02:25:02 <b_jonas> and "emlékeztet", which is what I translate "reminds" to, that comes with the onto case
02:25:57 <ais523> Latin has two cases which resemble prepositions (three if you count the genitive), so seeing a language generalize the concept isn't much of a surprise
02:26:18 <ais523> (in English, a genitive like "b_jonas's" is a separate case, but in French the same construction uses a preposition)
02:27:20 <b_jonas> this, by the way, results in some funny stuff in bad translations of mail+calendar programs, the ones that use a single localizable message "To" for both the recipient of an email and the end time of an interval entry in the calendar. and the interface puts that one thing before the noun.
02:27:50 <ais523> that sounds like an impossible job for the translator :-D
02:28:35 <ais523> at least mark them as to^recipient and to^until in the translation source so that there's some hope of being able to get it right
02:29:39 <b_jonas> ais523: as far as I'm aware, just one "to" prefix more or less works in the French, German, Swedish translations, so clearly you don't need to do that
02:31:15 <ais523> in fact, it's worse, given that the recipient could be a person you should logically have to^female and to^male to get the grammar right, but the email client has no way to know the gender of the recipient
02:31:28 <b_jonas> just what a great foresight the people who invented email MIME headers had to name that field "To" instead of "Recipient", now we don't need extra strings in the translation
02:31:54 <ais523> (I learned how to do translation markup from video games, where the people you're referring to are normally fictional people you've invented and thus you know their genders)
02:32:32 <b_jonas> ais523: in what language would you have to distinguish between genders in the context of an email recipient?
02:32:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RandoPerso * New user account
02:32:43 <b_jonas> I mean if it's called "to" rather than "recipient"
02:32:50 <b_jonas> if it was "recipient" than maybe
02:32:52 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't know any for certain offhand
02:33:17 <ais523> but, say, in Latin, if you want "to" as a preposition to say that someone is a recipient, you need to transform the end of their name rather than using a separate word
02:33:25 <ais523> and the correct transformation depends on their gender
02:33:55 <ais523> so in practice you would need to translate to "recipient" instead and that might also depend on their gender
02:34:26 <b_jonas> latin had a word for writing a letter to a woman?
02:35:14 <ais523> the Latin word for "recipient" is "acceptor" or "acceptrix" depending on whether the recipient is male or female
02:35:29 <ais523> I didn't know for certain that it would be gender-dependent, but lots of words in Latin are, so this one doesn't surprise me
02:36:05 <ais523> ("acceptor" seems to have become an English word, but typically only used for inanimate objects rather than people; "acceptrix" hasn't)
02:36:57 <ais523> hmm, maybe this is why the ancient Romans didn't have email
02:39:24 <nakilon> $ echo "+" | ruby examples/bf_translator.rb
02:39:24 <nakilon> :03--::\01--G1G//%1\1-\$0@
02:39:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84929&oldid=84915 * RandoPerso * (+257)
02:42:35 <b_jonas> to be clear, Hungarian ordinary nouns have 15 common cases, but only 12 of them are heavily overloaded to mean all sorts of different things, the other 3 have just one or two easy to define meanings
02:48:02 <nakilon> heh b_jonas https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cas_grammatical#/media/Fichier:Number_of_grammatical_cases_hic01.png
02:48:37 <nakilon> I wonder if the 7th one is the same all over the place that is in Ukrainian
02:49:38 <nakilon> the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocative_case
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02:55:37 <oerjan> i remember some page about how to do translation markup in one of the haskell web frameworks
02:56:44 <oerjan> it sort of mentioned how you could use arbitrary haskell functions, and how this might even handle something really complicated like russian numbers
02:57:17 <oerjan> apparently different russian numbers differ in both how they themselves and the noun they're applied to inflect
02:59:13 <oerjan> actually i'm not entirely sure if it mentioned russian numbers, or if i merely combined what it said with what i'd learned about russian numbers elsewhere
03:00:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: the -nek/nak case, is that one of the other 3, or that "miscellaneous" you mentioned?
03:00:37 <esolangs> [[User:PolySaken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84930&oldid=84916 * PolySaken * (+4)
03:00:46 <oerjan> (i know that can work as either dative or genitive)
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03:07:18 <oerjan> nakilon: i checked ukranian, lithuanian and czech and they all have the same set.
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03:08:13 <nakilon> idk what was your page about but "1" - один одного одному один одним одном; and there is a difference between numbers and digits, so number 1 is "один" but digit 1 is "единица" -- it's kind of like "zero" and "null" or "none" but there are two words for all 10
03:08:32 <oerjan> i recall latin has ablative instead but it lacks locative and instrumental so only gets 6
03:08:43 <oerjan> i think proto-indoeuropean had those 8
03:10:02 <oerjan> nakilon: it was mostly how the noun's case can vary depending on the number that was intriguing
03:10:19 <oerjan> and some numerals are non-inflectable, while others aren't.
03:11:21 <oerjan> although i don't remember any details except that 1000000 seems to take genitive plural noun
03:11:26 <nakilon> 2 -- two -- два, двойка; pair -- пара; but also sometimes двойка means a pair in cases like a pair of horses, also тройка for three of them
03:12:53 <oerjan> nakilon: anything the relevance to translation is that if you try to automatically translate the numeral and the noun separately, you'll get it wrong
03:13:25 <oerjan> even if you distinguish between singular and plural nouns, which is the only thing which matters in norwegian.
03:13:38 <oerjan> and english too, i guess.
03:13:59 <oerjan> no wait norwegian has gender. but not cases.
03:15:01 <oerjan> tldr: if you make a translation software without knowing anything about languages other than english, you're hosed.
03:15:16 <nakilon> heh, numbers don't have gender in Russian but digits are all female
03:15:53 <oerjan> nakilon: the number 1 has the same gender as the noun, surely? that's the other thing i remember.
03:16:31 <oerjan> i mean the kind of number you put in front of nouns, not the ones you use for counting, which i guess might be different.
03:17:14 <nakilon> make one man - сделать одного мужчину; make one woman -- сделать одну женщину
03:18:02 <nakilon> by "don't have gender" I mean they take the gender of the word they count
03:20:04 <nakilon> two (of something male) -- два, two (of something female) -- две, two humans -- двое
03:21:17 <nakilon> two males -- два or двое, two females -- две or двое, two mixed -- двое
03:24:22 <nakilon> oh wait, these is only about 1 and 2, and starting from 3 there is still a form for counting humans but no distinction between male and female; 3 - три, трое
03:25:38 <nakilon> looks like native language is more complex than you think because these rules aren't being taught explicitly, you mostly already know them when you come to school
03:29:25 <nakilon> heh, now I imagine a programming language where you use case to call some methods on an object, like type casting
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03:47:48 <oerjan> nakilon: have you looked at Perligata
03:48:10 <oerjan> not quite methods though
04:20:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84931&oldid=84929 * PixelatedStarfish * (+436) /* Introductions */
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04:51:50 <nakilon> taught bf->rasel translator to make paths across already existing lines of code by inserting spaces in them -- size of helloworld improved from 2000 to 1000 chats
04:59:22 <nakilon> "Currently the program doesn't print "Hello World!" but "you're a cunt" (I don't know what means that). I've changed the code to the one that is in the spanish Wikipedia."
04:59:32 <nakilon> (c) wikipedia brainfuck discussions page
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05:17:53 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84935&oldid=84934 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
05:25:43 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84936&oldid=84935 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1984)
05:39:10 <nakilon> heh, the brainfuck helloworld on rosettacode is also silently broken -- it prints Goodbye, Wrold!
06:27:15 <riv> i like that
06:28:35 <int-e> noone will ever know
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08:07:24 <b_jonas> oerjan: -nek is the third one, the third most common after nominative and object case, the one I didn't say anything about it and that is the most heavily overloaded
08:08:14 <b_jonas> also causes the most ambiguities in practice because it's so overloaded, you often find trying to write sentences with two nouns in -nak case bound to two different other parts of the sentence and having to rewrite to avoid that
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09:50:10 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84939&oldid=84938 * Rphii * (-2) replace "counter" with "timer"
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10:26:08 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84943 * AmNow * (+98) Created page with "Hello, I am AmNow. I havent posted my esolangs yet, but hopefully we can see one in the future."
10:55:08 <esolangs> [[()s]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84944 * AmNow * (+1009) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title={}s}} {}s (pronounced: Sets) is an esolang made by [[User:AmNow]]. (Phelo Saad) == Commands == {}: Expression (can be nested) ie: {%+%} %: the constant..."
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17:25:36 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85016&oldid=85015 * Rphii * (+301) /* Commands */ added output commands with newline function and #-command
17:27:34 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85017&oldid=85016 * Rphii * (+100) /* Escape Sequences */ add escape sequence of #
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17:50:56 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85019&oldid=85018 * Rphii * (+64) /* Commands */ clarify recently added commands
17:52:14 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85020&oldid=85019 * Rphii * (+75) /* Stack */ clarify
17:54:43 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85021&oldid=85020 * Rphii * (+0) /* Commands */ fix mess-up
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18:39:36 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85022&oldid=85021 * Rphii * (+134) /* Numbers */ added range
18:40:03 <b_jonas> re yesterday's language thing, one problem with counting noun cases in Hungarian is that it's not clear to me if there's a clear boundary between case endings and prepositions that you put after the nouns. some prepositions like "under" work basically the same as case endings, it's just that we write the endings that never add more than one syllable ran together without a space, and it's only those that
18:40:09 <b_jonas> you count for cases. sure, case endings can also change the ending of the noun, but they can't change them in 15 different ways, you would probably only need four cases if you allowed writing any almost-fixed suffix with a space (almost-fixed as in the only thing that may vary is two-way or three-way vowel harmony)
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18:42:55 <b_jonas> no wait, you'd need five cases, not four, because of -val
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18:46:49 <b_jonas> nakilon: re "https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cas_grammatical#/media/Fichier:Number_of_grammatical_cases_hic01.png" looks funny
18:49:05 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85023&oldid=85022 * Rphii * (+184) /* Numbers */ clarify
18:50:18 <b_jonas> there's also the complication of numerals in Hungarian, which complicate the model. numerals have unique affixes that you can only apply to them, including two that are case endings, plus they can get basically all the normal noun/adjective affixes
18:56:28 <b_jonas> so when you have a numeral, you first add a suffix which can be (nothing (to result in a cardinal), -od or similar (to result in a reciprocial fraction), -odik or similar (to result in an ordinal), or -odika or similar (only used for date numbers within a month)) and THEN you add a case ending which can be most of the normal noun case endings, or the special -szor ("times"). and any of those infixes
18:56:34 <b_jonas> will of course change in form and change the form of whatever is immediately before them for all sorts of phonetic reasons, plus a few numerals have special irregular rules (like "first" and "second" in English).
18:57:17 <b_jonas> not that this is in any way special, because ordinary nouns/adjectives and verbs also get multiple agreeing suffixes in sequence, and occasionally it's not even clear if something is one suffix or a common combination of two suffixes modified to unrecognizability
19:02:21 <b_jonas> because verbs get suffixes for (any combination of (4 mode-tenses times 6 number-persons times 2 object agreements) with like 46 or 47 of the 48 combinations actually distinguishable for some verbs) or (an infinitive ending with one of 7 number-persons, so you can use it as either a noun phrase or an argument to an auxiliary verb) or (one of the three adjective participle endings so you can use it as an
19:02:27 <b_jonas> epiteth or noun phrase) or (an adverb participle ending so you can use it as an adverb).
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19:05:46 <b_jonas> and nouns/adjectives can get (nothing or less often one of six number-person endings indicating a grammatical possessor) times (a plural marker or lack of it) times (a rare -é marker to indicate a possessor with elided possessed argument followed by another optional plural marker, or nothing) and THEN they get a case ending
19:05:55 <b_jonas> and that's if they aren't numerals
19:08:57 <b_jonas> the bad news is that numerals are theoretically an open class, new numerals can be invented; the good news is that numerals are practically a closed class, it's almost impossible to invent a new numeral other than just prefixing an existing numeral with more words, because most numeral meanings that you may want to say are already invented, so I think pretty much the only way you can invent a new one is
19:09:03 <b_jonas> (1) have a president ask how much is a "brazillion" and have this leaked, (2) invent a swearword, which is an open class becuase you can use anything as a swearword, then use that swearword frequently including as an intensifier, then use that swearword as a numeral because you can get away breaking most grammar with swearwords once they're so common that they're used as an intensifier
19:11:10 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85024&oldid=84824 * Toxinite * (+237)
19:12:34 <b_jonas> and all this only works because numerals don't share any recognizable endings; I believe even with the power of swearwords you can't create a new verb that doesn't end in -Vl or -z or -Vd (V meaning any vowel) or -ik or one of the few more obscure ending and isn't an obvious compound of a well-known verb.
19:14:40 <b_jonas> and there are further restrictions for most of those verb endings, so in practice most entirely new verbs, such as ones taken from English tech or science terminology, end in -ol/-el/-öl
19:16:39 <b_jonas> on the plus side, once you understand those rules, it's easy to create verbs: if you have basically any word, regardless part of speech, and mangled its phonology enough to be valid in Hungarian, you can pretty much slap -ol/-el/-öl and get a fine verb, unless that happens to badly clash with some other word
19:18:50 <b_jonas> for making a new noun/adjective, you barely even need an ending, just massage the word to match phonological rules, possibly change the final vowel if it ends in a vowel, and you have a noun/adjective, again unless it badly clashes with an existing word so it would cause ambiguity
19:21:29 <b_jonas> for words ending in a vowel, ending in -o or -ö is absolutely banned, change it to -ó or -ö; ending in -u or -ü is banned for new words, change it to -ú or -ű; ending in -á or -é or -í should usually be avoided and changed to -a or -e or -í but not completely forbidden, so only half of the vowels are available, but basically any consonant
19:22:22 <b_jonas> s/to -ó or -ö/to -ó or -ő/
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20:21:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85048&oldid=84963 * Dominicentek * (+15) /* I */
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20:30:20 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85056&oldid=85055 * PixelatedStarfish * (-66) /* External resources */
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21:17:16 <esolangs> [[Category:Prototype-based paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85065&oldid=84904 * PolySaken * (+39)
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21:22:56 <esolangs> [[Category:Educational]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85068 * PixelatedStarfish * (+139) Created page with "==Educational Languages== These languages are designed for educational purposes, such as for teaching, or learning through experimentation."
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23:23:44 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85074&oldid=85035 * Oshaboy * (+529) Added another C-INTERCAL truth machine
23:30:01 <b_jonas> fungot, what is the difference betwen a "paucity" and a "scarcity"?
23:30:01 <fungot> b_jonas: i think that lshort tutorial is the best programmer who is still arround. :p
23:48:12 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85075&oldid=85071 * PixelatedStarfish * (+656) /* Tobysil */
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00:52:25 <esolangs> [[Turing Completeness]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85096 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26) Created page with "#REDIRECT[Turing-complete]"
00:52:58 <esolangs> [[Turing Completeness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85097&oldid=85096 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) Redirected page to [[Turing-complete]]
00:54:04 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85098&oldid=84084 * RandoPerso * (+218) Added a 4-function calculator to the example programs.
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01:17:15 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85106&oldid=85105 * PixelatedStarfish * (+39) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
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03:09:21 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85110&oldid=85109 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Hello World */
03:12:53 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85111&oldid=85110 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2)
03:22:00 <esolangs> [[User:HecknTarnation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85112 * HecknTarnation * (+105) Created page with "Hi! I'm a guy who has found a recent interest in esolangs. I have currently written one esolang (YATDEL)."
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03:46:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:Ps.png]]"
03:47:59 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85115&oldid=85113 * PixelatedStarfish * (-67)
03:52:09 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85116&oldid=85115 * PixelatedStarfish * (+80)
03:57:07 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85117&oldid=85116 * PixelatedStarfish * (+95)
03:57:29 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85118&oldid=85117 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10)
04:14:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Blood32]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85119 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5) Created page with "Hi :D"
04:20:03 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85120&oldid=85111 * PixelatedStarfish * (+299)
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04:43:07 <esolangs> [[YATDEL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85133 * HecknTarnation * (+3277) Created page with "YATDEL (Yet Another Two-Dimensional Esoteric Language) is, obviously, a two-dimensional stack-based esoteric language created by [[User:HecknTarnation]]. Code is executed star..."
04:44:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85134&oldid=85049 * HecknTarnation * (+13) /* Y */
04:45:34 <esolangs> [[User:HecknTarnation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85135&oldid=85112 * HecknTarnation * (+1)
04:47:11 <esolangs> [[User:HecknTarnation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85136&oldid=85135 * HecknTarnation * (-2)
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04:48:07 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85137&oldid=85132 * PixelatedStarfish * (-51)
04:48:13 <esolangs> [[YATDEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85138&oldid=85133 * HecknTarnation * (+1)
04:48:31 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85139&oldid=85137 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
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05:37:45 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85143&oldid=85142 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19)
06:15:57 <int-e> haha, ouch. https://nitter.fdn.fr/CompSciFact/status/1400116315839504389#m
06:17:24 <zzo38> Are they going to add Hamster archive format into any of the programs with multiple formats (such as 7-Zip or bsdtar)? It can require to explicitly specify the type of the file in this case (I don't know if the internal code of these programs currently supports such a use, but it can be useful for some other formats too; I know of a few more)
06:19:42 <zzo38> int-e: They say: "That's the second hardest problem. The hardest one is that everybody but me have stupid ideas!" I think not quite; the hardest one is that everybody including me have stupid ideas!
06:47:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:The Temporary Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85144&oldid=67533 * Bangyen * (+956)
06:52:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85145&oldid=79620 * Bangyen * (+168)
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09:04:19 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85146&oldid=85023 * Rphii * (+73) /* Hello World */ add simpler version
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11:41:32 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85147 * AmNow * (+1386) content
11:42:01 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85148&oldid=85147 * AmNow * (+4)
11:43:07 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85149&oldid=85148 * AmNow * (-99)
11:43:54 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85150&oldid=84970 * AmNow * (+25)
11:45:29 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85151&oldid=85134 * AmNow * (+25) added lang
11:49:33 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85152&oldid=85149 * AmNow * (+98)
11:50:19 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85153&oldid=85152 * AmNow * (+0)
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11:50:50 <nakilon> I wonder if thre is any chat in the world that doesn't support /me
11:51:18 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85154&oldid=85153 * AmNow * (+0)
11:51:45 <nakilon> they didn't imlpement it just because Russian users are usually enough illiterate to not know if there are any other chats in internet at all after the ICQ popularity loss
11:51:58 <nakilon> so they don't notice this flaw at all
11:52:24 <fizzie> Pretty sure talk(1) doesn't. But maybe that doesn't count.
11:53:15 <nakilon> oh I lost the word from the first message
11:54:20 <fizzie> There was a chat thing in the BBS I used to frequent (because with Smodem, you can chat *while* you download -- whatever will they think of next), and I think it probably didn't do /me either.
11:54:20 <nakilon> it's funny how you write "/me something" in telegram and people are clicking the "/me" that results in sending the empty "/me" message
11:54:37 <nakilon> and they wonder why nothing happens and ask you if you are an idiot that you use the unexisting command
11:55:16 <Riviera> fizzie: wasn't kermit the nice protocol? :)
11:56:58 <fizzie> We did SMODEM because it was a Finnish invention, and you have to be patriotic with your protocols.
11:57:50 <Riviera> This is true and likely the only reason you are still on IRC.
12:01:53 <nakilon> today peope consider the instagram direct messaging the most popular and must-have chat
12:02:24 <nakilon> maybe they can't /me too but I can't check
12:02:27 <Riviera> there's a messenger on instagram?
12:02:41 <Riviera> or .. nevermind, i don't really care
12:02:43 <nakilon> yeah they call it "direct"
12:03:29 <nakilon> even if you want to contact the medical clinic you'll be supposed to contact them via it
12:05:36 <nakilon> I remember when instagram was for girls to show their nails and breakfasts but now it's a must-have for all kinds of people and of all ages; if somehow you've leaked the fact that you don't have instagram you are a damn marginal outsider
12:08:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * FireCubez * moved [[FLIPER Computer]] to [[FLIPER]]
12:13:45 <Riviera> ah like, how was it called
12:13:49 <Riviera> damn this thing that bands used
12:14:31 <nakilon> I guess it died before we were internetized
12:14:37 <Riviera> i've been told by friends who were playing in a band that without a myspace presence you'd hardly be able to play in bars etc.
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12:21:48 <esolangs> [[PAO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85157 * AmNow * (+32) Redirected page to [[Pops Are Overrated]]
12:21:59 <nakilon> btw, recently someone talked about crawling the channel list on the network
12:22:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OllyTheFoldy * New user account
12:22:30 <nakilon> it's easier now since /whois on freenode now shows all the channels, lol
12:24:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85158&oldid=84942 * OllyTheFoldy * (+151)
12:35:43 <esolangs> [[User:OllyTheFoldy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85159 * OllyTheFoldy * (+157) Created page with "I'm [[User:Gilbert189]]. I forgot my password, so I have to make this account. ==ASCII art hehe== |VVV| [ ] <|___|> V V Wait, that has bullets!"
12:39:44 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85160&oldid=85154 * AmNow * (+2) /* Hello World! */: Fixed
12:39:57 <esolangs> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85161&oldid=84455 * OllyTheFoldy * (+86)
12:46:45 <esolangs> [[Python is Magic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85162&oldid=84634 * OllyTheFoldy * (+46) /* Implementation */
12:53:37 <esolangs> [[Python is Magic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85163&oldid=85162 * OllyTheFoldy * (-12) /* yes */
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13:20:32 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85164&oldid=85160 * AmNow * (+0) /* Truth Machine */
13:28:53 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85165&oldid=85164 * AmNow * (+189) /* Commands */
13:31:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Provitia * New user account
13:32:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85166&oldid=85158 * Provitia * (+94) /* Introductions */
13:44:00 <nakilon> fizzie is this the talk you've mentioned? https://lurkmore.so/images/e/e2/Unix_talk.jpg
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13:47:51 <nakilon> we used this in university dormitory https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intranet_Chat
13:49:32 <b_jonas> nakilon: that would depend on whether a user only has user mode +i because that's the server default, or because they have their client explicitly request it after connecting
13:51:02 <nakilon> wow I didn't even remember it had so many settings http://vn-alex.narod.ru/ru/screenshots.htm
13:51:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: chat while you download? wow
13:52:06 <b_jonas> is this one of those magic boxes where if you happen to say ATH in chat, it doesn't disconnect your modem?
13:52:53 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> today peope consider the instagram direct messaging the most popular and must-have chat" => no, I think facebook chat is still the most fashionable one
13:54:57 <nakilon> but it's the same company anyway, they advertise each other
13:56:26 <nakilon> people don't even know they don't need apps to send photos between spartphones -- they are absolutely forced to believe that they HAVE to install the facebook's app Whatsap to send media
13:57:26 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85167 * Provitia * (+260) HakerScript is an esoteric language made for esolang jam hosted on [[https://discord.gg/gu4CaQ59Ap Truttle1 Discord Server]]
13:58:38 <b_jonas> nakilon: I think that's rather old news. people have been installing lots of unncessary software and drivers and perpetuating advice about them for as long back as I started to work with computers
13:59:33 <nakilon> lol one hyperlink from iChat wikipedia page leads to a pornsite now
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14:09:39 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85168&oldid=85167 * Provitia * (+360) /* Overview */
14:10:08 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85169&oldid=85168 * Provitia * (-26)
14:13:27 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85170&oldid=85150 * AmNow * (+16)
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14:17:43 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85171&oldid=85169 * Provitia * (+482)
14:19:05 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1237.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:20:39 <fizzie> Yeah, that looks like talk(1). I remember the split-screen layout.
14:21:35 <fizzie> There's also good old Windows Chat, over NetBIOS.
14:21:44 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85172&oldid=85171 * Provitia * (+540)
14:22:13 <fizzie> And WinPopup. WinPopup got a lot of use in the school setting.
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14:25:31 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85173&oldid=79571 * Matthilde * (+114) /* Optimizing implementations */
14:27:57 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85174&oldid=85172 * Provitia * (+456)
14:31:06 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85175&oldid=85174 * Provitia * (+236)
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14:39:47 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85178&oldid=85177 * Provitia * (+192) /* Truth machine */
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14:41:29 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85179&oldid=85178 * Provitia * (+183)
14:42:45 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85180&oldid=85179 * Provitia * (+1) /* Basics */
14:43:59 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85181&oldid=85180 * Provitia * (+675) /* 99 bottles of beer */
14:45:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:The Temporary Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85182&oldid=85144 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+547) Reply
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14:47:18 <esolangs> [[The Temporary Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85183&oldid=78738 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-76) /* Instructions */ Clarify/reword
14:47:40 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85184&oldid=85181 * Provitia * (-37) /* 99 bottles of beer */
14:48:04 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85185&oldid=85184 * Provitia * (+183)
14:48:24 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85186&oldid=85185 * Provitia * (+1) /* Implementations */
14:48:53 <nakilon> yeah that iChat author asid they used WinPopup before iChat and that iChat uses so called MailSlots and that he doesn't really fully know how it works
14:48:57 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85187&oldid=85186 * Provitia * (-264) HakerScript is an esoteric language made by [[Provitia]] for esolang jam hosted on [https://discord.gg/gu4CaQ59Ap Truttle1 Discord Server]. It's intended to be both confusing and readable at the same time. And yes, typo here is for a reason, okay?
14:49:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MrBrain295 * New user account
14:49:33 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85188&oldid=85187 * Provitia * (+210)
15:01:30 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85189&oldid=85188 * Provitia * (+106) /* Basics */
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15:09:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85190&oldid=85166 * MrBrain295 * (+76)
15:10:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85191&oldid=85190 * MrBrain295 * (+24)
15:12:39 <esolangs> [[Mom please get me so me zucchini from sho p]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85192&oldid=78473 * MrBrain295 * (+81) Added how comments work.
15:18:50 <esolangs> [[YATDEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85193&oldid=85138 * HecknTarnation * (+88) /* Abstract Files */
15:21:58 <esolangs> [[Plts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85194&oldid=81238 * Sertdfyguhi * (-23)
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15:37:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Number Seventy-Four]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85196&oldid=85145 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+150) /* Questions */ Answer
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15:40:14 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85197&oldid=85165 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Computational Class */ Categories
15:40:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85198&oldid=82987 * Sanscicondos * (+271) added wheel bug entry
15:40:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85199&oldid=85198 * Sanscicondos * (+2)
15:41:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85200&oldid=85199 * Sanscicondos * (+1) added bullets
15:44:48 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85201&oldid=85189 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) User: in link
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16:07:25 <esolangs> [[Dotter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85202&oldid=81240 * Sertdfyguhi * (-23)
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16:12:50 <riv> there are rubiks cube PLLs: {A,U,J,R,N}{a,b},H,Z,T,Y,V,E,G{a,b,c,d}
16:12:54 <riv> I think that is all of them
16:13:27 <riv> I missed one, There is also F
16:13:35 <riv> {A,U,J,R,N}{a,b},H,Z,T,Y,V,E,F,G{a,b,c,d}
16:13:54 <riv> along with U moves, they have an arithmetic (form a group)
16:14:02 <riv> you have some equations like E = T * U2 * T
16:14:06 <riv> (U is a 90 degree rotation)
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16:37:39 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85203&oldid=85197 * AmNow * (-2) /* Computational Class */
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16:49:08 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85204&oldid=85051 * Dominicentek * (+25)
16:50:05 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85205&oldid=85204 * Dominicentek * (-2)
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17:40:25 <esolangs> [[WinReg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85206 * Dominicentek * (+3442) Created page with "WinReg is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Dominicentek]]. It's syntax is similar to his other language called [[FolderCode]]. Instead of it being a folder s..."
17:40:54 <esolangs> [[WinReg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85207&oldid=85206 * Dominicentek * (+45)
17:41:43 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85208&oldid=85151 * Dominicentek * (+13)
17:42:05 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85209&oldid=85205 * Dominicentek * (-10)
18:14:54 <b_jonas> riv: I don't know what all those letters mean
18:15:28 <esolangs> [[StackLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85210&oldid=85086 * Dominicentek * (-16) /* Instructions */
18:16:24 <riv> the letter is a name for a PLL
18:16:41 <riv> https://jperm.net/algs/pll
18:17:02 <riv> i could have a program that lets me to arithmetic with them
18:17:10 <riv> T * U2 * T it would calculate the result E
18:20:09 <Corbin> It's group theory, like in the esolang Finite Groups.
18:20:35 <Corbin> Except here I think riv's letters refer to the rotations available on a Rubik's Cube.
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18:24:47 <esolangs> [[StackLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85211&oldid=85210 * Dominicentek * (-63) /* Instructions */
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18:51:47 <zzo38> This is what they said about my "Scientific Role Playing System": I think your icon should be Rosalind Franklin in a white lab coat pouring something onto a waffle.
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19:38:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85212&oldid=85208 * Goglesq * (+22) /* B */
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19:41:11 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85213 * Goglesq * (+188) Created page with "Bitcode is an image programming language. It uses pixels in an image as code. Later docs will come soon. Hello world: File:C:\Users\roger\source\repos\Bitcode\bin\Debug\cod..."
19:43:17 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85214&oldid=85213 * Goglesq * (-32)
19:43:39 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85215&oldid=85214 * Goglesq * (+0)
19:44:00 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85216&oldid=85215 * Goglesq * (-10)
19:46:59 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85217&oldid=85216 * Goglesq * (+886)
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21:16:11 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85218&oldid=85217 * Goglesq * (+822)
21:18:11 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85219&oldid=84742 * TinyGuy32 * (+45)
21:19:39 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85220&oldid=85218 * Goglesq * (+316)
21:23:48 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85221&oldid=85220 * Goglesq * (+162)
21:24:16 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85222&oldid=85221 * Goglesq * (+5)
21:28:42 <esolangs> [[BullScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85223 * TinyGuy32 * (+437) Created page with "==BullScript:== BullScript is a language used for creating libraries for [https://esolangs.org/wiki/DoFor DoFor], it was made to be realy bad. please note that DoFor dose no..."
21:29:47 <esolangs> [[BullScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85224&oldid=85223 * TinyGuy32 * (+58) /* Commands: */
21:30:09 <esolangs> [[BullScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85225&oldid=85224 * TinyGuy32 * (+0) /* Commands: */
21:31:39 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85226&oldid=85219 * TinyGuy32 * (-1) /* DoFor */
21:37:07 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85227&oldid=85226 * TinyGuy32 * (+286) /* Actions: */
21:38:53 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85228&oldid=85227 * TinyGuy32 * (+24) /* Types: */
21:44:57 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85229&oldid=85228 * TinyGuy32 * (+183)
21:46:33 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85230&oldid=85229 * TinyGuy32 * (+13) /* Actions: */
21:47:59 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85231&oldid=85212 * TinyGuy32 * (+17) /* Non-alphabetic */
21:49:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85232&oldid=85231 * TinyGuy32 * (+17) /* B */
21:51:18 <esolangs> [[BullScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85233&oldid=85225 * TinyGuy32 * (-3) /* Commands: */
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22:02:41 <esolangs> [[User:Tomhe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85234&oldid=82776 * Tomhe * (+16)
22:05:33 <b_jonas> fungot, explain the difference between "perceptive" and "perspective" please
22:05:33 <fungot> b_jonas: didn't i just say the other day about how i don't use windows more than once ( per invocation)....
22:08:15 <riv> fungot, binary code vs bitcode?
22:08:15 <fungot> riv: and there really isn't that painful. among the highlights and by highlights i of course reply " yes, it's very natural to just make a simple interpreter that is the useful lojban word meaning " 5"
22:08:56 <b_jonas> I think that's "mu" but ok
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23:03:58 <fizzie> Hmm, Steam's recommending me a game called "while True: learn()" which is allegedly about machine learning and cats.
23:04:06 <fizzie> Their targeted ads are pretty targeted.
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23:53:55 <esolangs> [[StackLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85235&oldid=85211 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Instructions */ Fix a grammar
23:55:15 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85236&oldid=85232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17) /* Non-alphabetic */ Oh come on
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00:13:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85237&oldid=84965 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+237) Link knil
00:28:37 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85238&oldid=85118 * PixelatedStarfish * (+7)
00:28:50 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85239&oldid=85238 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
00:30:06 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85240&oldid=81591 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) /* IDE */
00:37:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WreckingGames * New user account
00:44:55 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the difference between a teeter-totter and a kitty-corner?
00:44:55 <fungot> b_jonas: not recommended. i will
00:46:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85241&oldid=85191 * WreckingGames * (+111)
00:47:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85242&oldid=85241 * WreckingGames * (+17)
00:55:02 <zzo38> I made up a (currently incomplete) list of code page numbers, mainly based on the IBM code page numbers, but secondarily Microsoft and FreeDOS, and some new assignments; none of the new assignments are considered to be finalized yet, though.
02:36:02 <esolangs> [[*++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85243 * MrBrain295 * (+233) Add *++
02:36:46 <esolangs> [[*++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85244&oldid=85243 * MrBrain295 * (+1) Tiny fix
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05:04:03 <nakilon> so I finally started making the comparison table of pastebins https://i.imgur.com/FunBBR3.png
05:08:09 <zzo38> OK, also add sprunge, and also add a column if it is working without JavaScripts/CSS, column for syntax highlighting at all (you have preview, but not about at all), and possibly some others
05:08:28 <zzo38> It is also helpful to have available the table as text or CSV, rather than a picture
05:10:15 <zzo38> You might also add question marks for unknown data
05:11:12 <zzo38> Sprunge has only unlisted mode
05:19:28 <nakilon> looks like their form is broken, it does not open at all https://i.imgur.com/Y6CQ3FG.png
05:20:59 <zzo38> It is a link with a data: URI; try copying the link and then pasting it to the address bar. Some browsers and some browser extensions might not support direct links to data: URIs.
05:21:58 <zzo38> (Also, you can still use curl even if the HTML form doesn't work.)
05:22:40 <zzo38> (Although I don't know why they don't just include the form inline instead of using a data: URI)
05:32:08 <nakilon> "08:08:29 <zzo38> It is also helpful to have available the table as text or CSV, rather than a picture" -- this will go here https://github.com/Nakilon/pcbr-demo so you'll have both text and markdown table after it runs the ranking
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07:36:07 <esolangs> [[Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85245&oldid=79633 * Bangyen * (+131)
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07:56:04 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85246&oldid=85201 * Provitia * (+255)
07:57:06 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85247&oldid=85246 * Provitia * (-3) /* Package reference */
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08:04:00 <nakilon> "column for syntax highlighting at all" -- the number of supported langs = 0 means no syntax highlight available
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08:40:52 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85248&oldid=85247 * Provitia * (+23)
08:42:23 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85249&oldid=85248 * Provitia * (+132) /* 99 bottles of beer */
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09:39:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85250&oldid=82859 * ColorfulGalaxy * (-30) Fixed a href
09:54:54 <nakilon> made a table of 15 pastebins https://i.imgur.com/V65WXW2.png
09:55:21 <nakilon> can't really rank them though, too many columns
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09:56:23 <myname> it's funny how you decided not to put it in one of those pastebins
09:57:33 <nakilon> the table is too wide though
09:58:22 <FireFly> surely not a problem when just served as plaintext? that usually doesn't wordwrap
09:58:33 <FireFly> (but yes indeed, it would be more useful as an actual text table than a screenshot..)
10:00:26 <FireFly> gist.github.com should have fork=1, no?
10:00:56 <nakilon> it's here https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Nakilon/pcbr-demo/master/pastebins.txt
10:04:57 <b_jonas> wait, you made a list of pastebins and you share it as a png image of all things?
10:05:22 <int-e> no https://paste.debian.net/ and no http://mathb.in/ :-P
10:05:49 <int-e> (these are the ones I tend to use; the latter is rather special purpose though)
10:05:56 <b_jonas> nakilon: you could add dpaste.com
10:07:08 <nakilon> hm, I look at https://bsd.to/ now and it's for some reason pretty much the same as dpaste
10:07:22 <int-e> let's face it... everyone and their dog has a pastebin on the internet
10:08:19 <nakilon> I wanted to make this table back in 2008 or something
10:09:17 <nakilon> probably half of them is dead now https://i.imgur.com/LEWMSOA.png
10:10:58 <b_jonas> nakilon: plus there's some program evaluator sites work as pastebins too, including https://ideone.com/ https://rextester.com/ https://play.rust-lang.org/
10:11:20 <nakilon> ideally I need to make a JS web page that would allow you to chose the columns you care about to rank the list personally for you but I'm yet to make such page, can't ass myself to implement the algorithm in JS
10:11:29 <b_jonas> half of them is dead now => true, I have link to some dead ones too
10:11:45 <nakilon> b_jonas yeah, I think I'll exclude the evaluators though
10:11:56 <b_jonas> hpaste, set up by haskellers, was a particularly unique one in that it was configured to a very short max length limit of the paste
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10:15:15 <nakilon> heh, I remember, I wanted to make this table for a post on a popular Russian IT blog platform
10:15:25 <nakilon> but my karma went to -100 before I finished
10:17:17 <nakilon> so I was unable to post it, heh, people deprived themselves a content they would love to have
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10:20:34 <nakilon> ah, I see, https://bsd.to/ "looks like dpaste" because it's opensource -- probably just different configured limits and domain age
10:27:05 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85251&oldid=85230 * TinyGuy32 * (-1) /* using a librairy: */
10:27:38 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85252&oldid=85251 * TinyGuy32 * (+0) /* using a librairy: */
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10:34:29 <nakilon> omg debian pastebin has XML RPC as API, idk how I will test its size limits
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10:36:11 <nakilon> nvm, I'll test the web form
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10:48:52 <nakilon> why not hardcode the width of the table cell, right?... http://vpaste.net/stat
10:52:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: hardcoding the width is fine, but you implement it as printf " %4d" to handle overflows gracefully
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11:21:57 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85253&oldid=85203 * AmNow * (-4) Correction
11:26:25 <nakilon> for some reason http://vpaste.net/ and https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ have suspiciously similar size limit of 130'000
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11:51:37 <esolangs> [[YATDEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85254&oldid=85193 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) /* External Resources */ Cats
11:54:10 <esolangs> [[ASCII art-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85255&oldid=74888 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Hello, World! */ Cat
11:56:27 <esolangs> [[ ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85256&oldid=82247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* Interpreters */ Cat
12:13:46 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85257&oldid=85249 * Provitia * (+118)
12:16:42 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85258&oldid=85257 * Provitia * (+175)
12:17:52 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85259&oldid=85258 * Provitia * (+48) /* Stuff you should know */
12:18:16 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85260&oldid=85259 * Provitia * (+0) /* Stuff you should know */
12:18:31 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85261&oldid=85260 * Provitia * (-16) /* Package reference */
12:19:14 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85262&oldid=85261 * Provitia * (-88) /* Hello world! */
12:19:26 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85263&oldid=85262 * Provitia * (-204) /* Truth machine */
12:19:57 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85264&oldid=85263 * Provitia * (-155) /* Package reference */
12:21:28 <nakilon> added more pastebins, deleted more columns -- it finally made some ranking possible: https://i.imgur.com/QcdYy0Q.png
12:24:01 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85265&oldid=85264 * Provitia * (+251) /* Package reference */
12:25:05 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85266&oldid=85265 * Provitia * (+59) /* Package reference */
12:25:19 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85267&oldid=85266 * Provitia * (-1) /* Package reference */
12:38:59 <nakilon> omg indeed, every large channel here has own pastebin in topic
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12:39:57 <myname> that's not surprising. pastebins are easy to set up and if you are large enough, you may be concerned with data privacy
12:40:18 <myname> and also with persistence
12:42:45 <nakilon> saying about persistence -- about 3/4 of that 2010 list is dead
12:43:29 <nakilon> and the most hated -- pastebin.com -- the oldest that survived
12:43:56 <nakilon> no info on if the pastes survived though
12:45:27 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85268&oldid=84615 * Sawcce * (+7) /* Messages */
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13:24:57 <b_jonas> myname: and with legal issues with hosting illegal third party content and having to remove them on request
13:27:11 <b_jonas> nakilon: I don't think pastebin.com survived. I think they stopped but the domain name got bought by some other paste site, possibly by pastebin.org
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14:06:15 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85269&oldid=85267 * Provitia * (+75) /* Stuff you should know */
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14:29:20 <esolangs> [[DoFor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85270&oldid=85252 * TinyGuy32 * (-1) /* using a librairy: */
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15:22:32 <nakilon> after reaching 28 pastebins the sprunge has got a competitor -- paste.the-compiler.org
15:22:44 <nakilon> and the worst one is paste.nginx.org
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16:19:03 <zzo38> OK, look like that table is good.
16:19:42 <zzo38> However, in comparison tables like that I find it useful to add footnotes; when doing myself, or on Wikipedia, such things are done.
16:25:14 <zzo38> There may also be data which is non-numeric, including which protocols are supported (HTTP and HTTPS are common ones; I don't know if any support Gemini)
16:26:58 <zzo38> (Although, I don't like the writing protocol for Gemini; it adds the size and other parameters into the URL, although I think it would be better to add the size, MIME type, and token (separated by spaces, and the token is optional) on the next line after the URL. The token might be the hash of the previous version (in order to avoid edit conflicts); what the token does is implementation-dependent.)
16:27:54 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85271&oldid=84020 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) /* See Also */ Cats
16:33:20 <esolangs> [[BullScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85272&oldid=85233 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) Also see cat
16:42:26 <esolangs> [[BitCode/PicCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85273&oldid=85222 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Reading it */ Cats
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17:45:13 <Sgeo> https://www.1dividedby0.com/
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18:07:00 <arseniiv> it mentions wheels, good. Someday I’ll be able to decide for myself if they are good or bad
18:07:59 <arseniiv> without using something like them, we can’t really make arithmetic with ℝP, just Möbius transform it and nothing more
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18:10:21 <arseniiv> but whether wheels are sufficiently canonical a choice of extension to a field or a ring, and do they really generalize nicely — I’m afraid not so many people touched them to be sure
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18:15:07 <arseniiv> “nullity” definitely seems like a better name for the ultimate wheel element, and the notation Φ… maybe better than ⊥, which I’d prefer to not grow a number of homonyms of. Though I don’t understand why not for instance use ⊙
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18:33:27 <esolangs> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85274&oldid=84140 * Aspwil * (+918)
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18:51:33 <esolangs> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85275&oldid=85274 * Aspwil * (+20)
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18:55:16 <esolangs> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85276&oldid=85275 * Aspwil * (+82)
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19:03:32 <esolangs> [[User:TinyGuy32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85277&oldid=84420 * TinyGuy32 * (+69)
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19:08:31 <esolangs> [[User:TinyGuy32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85278&oldid=85277 * TinyGuy32 * (+49)
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19:27:50 <b_jonas> Sgeo: ℝP^n is the real projective space of n dimensions, so ℝP^1 is a projective line, ℝP^2 is a projective plane, etc
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19:35:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * VMGP2 * New user account
19:39:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85279&oldid=85242 * VMGP2 * (+103)
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20:10:03 <esolangs> [[V++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85280 * VMGP2 * (+709) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=V++ |paradigms=object-oriented, functional |author=[[VMGP Official]] |year=[[:Category:2016|2016]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]..."
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20:17:27 <esolangs> [[V++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85281&oldid=85280 * VMGP2 * (+318)
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20:28:11 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85282&oldid=85170 * AmNow * (+80) added fact
20:28:32 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85283&oldid=85282 * AmNow * (+4)
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20:41:13 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85284&oldid=85143 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5) /* Grammar */
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21:24:55 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85285&oldid=85284 * PixelatedStarfish * (+176)
21:26:05 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85286&oldid=85285 * PixelatedStarfish * (+27) /* External resources */
21:26:15 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85287&oldid=85286 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External resources */
21:26:30 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85288&oldid=85287 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) /* External resources */
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21:26:40 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85289&oldid=85288 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External resources */
21:27:57 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85290&oldid=85289 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External resources */
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21:30:42 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85291 * VilgotanL * (+4800) Created page with " is an esolang by [[User:VilgotanL|VilgotanL]] created for an esojam in [[User:Truttle1|Truttle1's]] discord server, it uses an accumulator and a cell tape that both hold..."
21:31:37 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85292&oldid=85291 * VilgotanL * (+4) improve wording slightly
21:32:21 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85293&oldid=85290 * PixelatedStarfish * (+30) /* External resources */
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21:56:47 <arseniiv> finally got to the end of writing a function to generate sound of the type I want, but now I’ll need to debug it first. Numpy doesn’t want to calculate with one of the arrays being zero-length (by design, sometimes it will end up that way)
22:00:00 <arseniiv> (I generate a spectrum from a bunch of gaussians, and when they are too narrow (10 sigmas ~ tens of samples) I use a costly method involving erf differences, and for wider gaussians I just sample the probability density, as it changes slowly in that case and the errors are small
22:00:36 <arseniiv> and when dividing the data into these two parts, one of them might end up empty)
22:02:42 <arseniiv> the erf method is essential as I may need to sample pure sines with this same method, and using PDF would end up in …0, 0, 0… in most cases instead of …0, 1, 0…
22:04:31 <arseniiv> I even confused myself immeasurably before, trying to use binomial distribution instead of erf differences. But it doesn’t allow changing sigma continuously, it only offers sigmas which end up in binomial parameter n = 0, 1, 2, 3, … which might be not enough
22:06:29 <arseniiv> though telling you this, I now note my pure sine case will be generated incorrectly: when the frequency of the sine lies between the frequencies representable in N samples exactly, then the spectrum would end up a sinc, and my method doesn’t give sinc, oohh :(
22:07:44 <arseniiv> erf differences correspond with integrating gaussian PDF with small rectangular windows, but I probably need sinc windows after all
22:08:37 <arseniiv> that’s too much hassle. Hopefully my quadruple oversampling and spectrums without sigmas that small will mask this inaccuracy
22:11:36 <arseniiv> which make frequency bins spaced closer and frequency errors smaller
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22:26:17 <esolangs> [[=,-&~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85294 * AmNow * (+930) content
22:28:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85295&oldid=85236 * AmNow * (+12) added lang
22:29:06 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85296&oldid=85283 * AmNow * (+12) added lang
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22:35:47 <esolangs> [[=,-&~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85297&oldid=85294 * AmNow * (-8) fixed grammar mitsake
23:15:33 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85298&oldid=85146 * Rphii * (+1620) finally clarified timer rules
23:18:13 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85299&oldid=85298 * Rphii * (+96) /* Numbers */ add leading zero rule
23:20:10 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85300&oldid=85299 * Rphii * (-9) /* Examples */ make use of leading zero rule
23:27:36 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85301&oldid=85300 * Rphii * (+54) /* Commands */ fix logical issue with ! command & general clarification
23:29:01 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85302&oldid=85301 * Rphii * (-7) /* Examples */ make better use of the leading zero rule
23:35:27 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85303&oldid=85302 * Rphii * (+172) /* Examples */ add ascii table program
23:36:36 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85304&oldid=83454 * Oshaboy * (+83) Added my reimplementation
23:37:06 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85305&oldid=85304 * Oshaboy * (+6) Damn Formatting
23:39:18 <esolangs> [[V++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85306&oldid=85281 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) Fix tag
23:39:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85307&oldid=85295 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* V */ V++
23:51:29 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85308&oldid=85303 * Rphii * (+77) fix issue with timers rule
23:53:02 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85309&oldid=85308 * Rphii * (-12) /* Timers */ fix mess-up
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23:57:43 <esolangs> [[Sophie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85310 * Oshaboy * (+1948) Initial
23:59:27 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85311&oldid=85309 * Rphii * (-3) /* ASCII Table */ simplify
00:00:27 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85312&oldid=85311 * Rphii * (+1) /* ASCII Table */ fix mess-up
00:01:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:FFM/FFB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85313 * Oshaboy * (+76) Created page with "Is this a Finite State Automata? To me it seems like a Brainfuck Equivalent."
00:02:21 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85314&oldid=85312 * Rphii * (+4) /* ASCII Table */ the previous one wouldn't have worked
00:10:36 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85315&oldid=85074 * Oshaboy * (+34) Added a Truth Machine I wrote in my own esolang Sophie.
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00:11:04 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85316&oldid=85314 * Rphii * (+2) /* ASCII Table */ fix mess-up
00:25:51 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85317&oldid=85316 * Rphii * (+76) /* Numbers */ add . number
00:26:44 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85318&oldid=85317 * Rphii * (-3) /* ASCII Table */ simplify by using the . number
00:27:08 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85319&oldid=85318 * Rphii * (-1) /* Numbers */ fix mess-up
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01:17:45 <zzo38> Linux has a O_TMPFILE flag now, and then you can use linkat to add a name later if wanted, but it does not have a flag to allow linkat to overwrite an existing file, as far as I know.
01:18:50 <shachaf> Oh, interesting, that's a good point.
01:38:07 <nakilon> imagine such pastebin CLI that would just take the pipe, clipboard or params, ask you parameters and upload it to all the conforming pastebin services in parallel, printing the links to your terminal
01:38:40 <nakilon> the fastest one will be printed first, and then you can either wait for the rest or stop the CLI
01:39:21 <nakilon> or have a saved preference to upload only to the first one and copy it to clipboard, etc.
01:39:33 <zzo38> Are there some services that will identify the uploaded data by hash?
01:40:27 <nakilon> probably there are torrent/dc indexers
01:49:46 <zzo38> Both Git and Fossil will identify data by hash, although Git adds a header so that it is not the same as the direct hash of the file, but Fossil does use the raw file directly so the hash does match that of the direct hash of the file.
01:51:05 <nakilon> there is also my uploader that you dislike for using not enough reliable for 200000 years long usage hashing
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01:52:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: doesn't linkat always overwrites existing files, at least non-directory ones?
01:53:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: The documentation I saw says it doesn't. But whether it does or not, sometimes you might want it the other way.
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01:55:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, you're right, only rename or renameat does that
01:56:18 <b_jonas> that's useful actually, it means you can use link then unlink to rename a file without overwriting the destination name; but link to temporary file then rename to overwrite the destination name
01:57:29 <b_jonas> I'll use it the next time I write a script that wants to rename without clobbering
03:09:49 <nakilon> weird, sprunge git repo says it's using pygments 1.6 but their 1.6 tag doesn't include ruby lexer while the syntax highlighting works
03:11:55 <nakilon> though it's pithon and so by default the dependency versions mess
03:12:41 <nakilon> there is even no lock file at all
03:14:45 <nakilon> people can't reach him https://github.com/rupa/sprunge/issues/48
03:31:26 <nakilon> there was a talk few months ago about mime types -- looks like pygments supposes there are mime types for languages, like this: https://github.com/pygments/pygments/blob/f0ff1bad7122f2604c54401b7ef1547bbeb4260f/pygments/lexers/ruby.py#L39
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03:45:33 <zzo38> Will they have IRC, Free Hero Mesh, X resource manager, ZIL, etc?
03:47:12 <zzo38> (Some formats have commands that can change the interpretation of the code during execution, so that the syntax highlighting won't work very well, such as PostScript and Forth.)
03:50:27 <nakilon> though github-linguist says: mime type: text/plain, language: Ruby
03:51:52 <nakilon> I guess the "internet strangers comments copypasta" would need a mime-type
03:52:18 <nakilon> that one for the clipboard standard format that no one will implement
03:56:05 <zzo38> Another consideration will be in some programming languages, which words are a keyword might depend on the context, e.g. in SQLite, some words are keywords in some contexts and plain words in other contexts. In the case of the words TRUE and FALSE, it depends on the database schema; they are keywords only if there aren't columns by those names.
04:02:02 <nakilon> as I understand the github-linguist uses this repo and this file to highlight befunge https://github.com/johanasplund/sublime-befunge/blob/master/Befunge-93.tmLanguage
04:03:09 <nakilon> might be a list of supported formats of grammar descriptions that are supported by linguist so I could make one for RASEL
04:04:42 <zzo38> There is also the consideration of character encodings.
04:08:03 <zzo38> I thought in befunge whether something is a command or a string depends on the execution?
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04:12:17 <nakilon> even without self-modification you can ram into a string from one of 4 directions in either string mode or not
04:12:48 <nakilon> and you can skip the string-mode instruction (") depending on a condition
04:14:11 <nakilon> fizzie you could probably add "bef" here or whatever is used commonly, you know better than me https://github.com/github/linguist/blob/16c70aef8cd62ca071231a380c69050f5e83c900/lib/linguist/languages.yml#L492
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05:21:48 <nakilon> there should a technology allowing to inject a vaccine to a server to make it immune to a virus
05:22:12 <nakilon> in some more literal way than updating an antivirus scan db
05:36:35 <esolangs> [[YATDEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85320&oldid=85254 * HecknTarnation * (+210)
05:39:08 <esolangs> [[YATDEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85321&oldid=85320 * HecknTarnation * (-64) /* Multi-File Hello World */
06:32:57 <esolangs> [[V++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85322&oldid=85306 * VMGP2 * (+440)
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07:40:21 <esolangs> [[StackLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85324&oldid=85235 * Dominicentek * (+43) Changed the definition of IF statements
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07:43:21 <esolangs> [[StackLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85326&oldid=85325 * Dominicentek * (-6)
07:44:22 <esolangs> [[StackLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85327&oldid=85326 * Dominicentek * (-2) Removed invalid instruction from truth machine example
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08:30:00 <esolangs> [[User:VilgotanL/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85330 * VilgotanL * (+80) created the page
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08:46:52 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85339&oldid=85319 * Rphii * (+0) /* Commands */ fix less than command
08:49:23 <esolangs> [[Sophie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85340&oldid=85310 * Bangyen * (-13) /* Examples */
08:58:55 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85341&oldid=85339 * Rphii * (-10) fix issues with commands so that I can try to implement it
09:04:07 <esolangs> [[Sophie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85342&oldid=85340 * Bangyen * (+103)
09:05:31 <esolangs> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85343&oldid=83028 * Bangyen * (+100)
09:12:00 <esolangs> [[Circlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85344&oldid=75542 * Bangyen * (-54)
10:04:23 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85345&oldid=85315 * Oshaboy * (-2) Formatting
10:26:05 <sknebel> TIL https://www.intercaloninterstates.org/examples.html
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11:11:59 <esolangs> [[StackLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85346&oldid=85327 * Dominicentek * (+38) Changed truth machine once again and interpreter released
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13:26:28 <esolangs> [[StackLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85349&oldid=85346 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Interpreter */ Cat
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14:43:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Oshaboy * uploaded "[[File:Truth machine 4BOD.png]]"
14:44:31 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85351&oldid=85305 * Oshaboy * (+74) Added Truth Machine
14:45:03 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85352&oldid=85351 * Oshaboy * (+12) Formatting
14:45:30 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85353&oldid=85352 * Oshaboy * (-18) Screw Headings
14:46:57 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85354&oldid=85345 * Oshaboy * (+53) Added 4 Bits of Doom
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15:12:43 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85356&oldid=85355 * Rphii * (-264) shuffle around commands so that I can completely get rid of escape sequences
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16:08:15 <^[> nakilon: Is applying a patch to fix a vulnerability similar enough?
16:08:49 <^[> Arguably, updating an antivirus DB is a much closer metaphor to teaching the immune system to recognize a threat.
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16:09:32 <nakilon> via unnatural interface like a needle through a skin
16:11:46 <^[> sknebel: The name alone is hilarious.
16:12:15 <nakilon> something like crack but a different purpose
16:12:48 <myname> there actually were antivirus viruses in the past
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17:14:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:FFM/FFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85359&oldid=85313 * VilgotanL * (+405) reply to oshaboy
17:24:13 <esolangs> [[BitCycle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85360&oldid=75743 * Dlosc * (+144) Added links to online intepreters
17:26:23 <esolangs> [[Ouroboros]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85361&oldid=50902 * Dlosc * (+13) Updated link to online interpreter
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18:30:20 <esolangs> [[WinReg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85363&oldid=85362 * Dominicentek * (+0) Fixed a typo
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18:50:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:PixelatedStarfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85365 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5) Created page with "Hi :D"
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18:58:23 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85368&oldid=85367 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9) /* External resources */
19:00:08 <esolangs> [[Category:Imperative paradigm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85369 * PixelatedStarfish * (+118) Created page with "A imperative language consists of operations that change the state of the program to achieve a goal or complete a task"
19:02:42 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85370&oldid=85368 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5)
19:05:37 <zzo38> A book of philosophy of mathematics says, why should mathematics, but not astrology and theology, be included in the list of sciences? My own opinion is: It doesn't. None of the three are sciences; they are four different things.
19:05:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85371&oldid=85365 * Bangyen * (+246)
19:12:35 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85372&oldid=85353 * Oshaboy * (+45)
19:13:40 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85373&oldid=85098 * Aspwil * (+134) /* Language Overview */
19:14:07 <^[> Although they're all different, math is a very useful tool for science, so it has a special place in that context, unlike the other two.
19:14:48 <^[> Due to the closeness of their relationship, many people like to add math to the list of sciences.
19:25:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:=,-&~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85374 * Bangyen * (+231) Created page with "== Rotation == Given the stack <code>1 2 3</code> (where <code>3</code> is the top element), would rotate up result in the stack <code>3 1 2</code>? - ~~~~"
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19:49:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85378&oldid=83895 * Bangyen * (+83) Undo revision 83895 by [[Special:Contributions/OfficialCraftCGame|OfficialCraftCGame]] ([[User talk:OfficialCraftCGame|talk]])
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20:02:33 <zzo38> Yes, it is a useful tool for science, and that is the argument given in the book, but that doesn't make it science, as far as I am concerned.
20:05:12 <myname> interesting. i only know the debate of whether mathematics should be considered natural science or humanities, but i wouldn't consider it not science. that may be a language thing
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20:23:35 <riv> there is the idea that it is more pure than science, you don't do experiements, you prove stuff instead of creating falsifiable theories
20:23:35 <zzo38> There can also be consideration of Platonism, etc
20:23:45 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85381&oldid=85307 * AmNow * (+8) added lang
20:23:55 <zzo38> riv: Yes, that is what I think it is too
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20:39:41 <^[> myname: What would be the argument for grouping it with the humanities?
20:39:47 <^[> That it's a branch of philosophy?
20:40:42 <myname> because it's more argumentative instead of experimental
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21:05:07 <esolangs> [[WinReg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85386&oldid=85385 * Dominicentek * (-26) Removed Unimplemented Category
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21:30:04 <^[> I generally think of math as a category separate from both the humanities and sciences, but it seems reasonable to group it with the former.
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02:00:43 <pikhq> having done math and humanities, it feels more akin to the humanities than to science
02:02:15 <pikhq> math (obviously) tends to be very rigorous in how it does things, _but_ in its practice it doesn't tend to resemble science at all. math very often does things for its own sake, and sometimes then discovers applications for that, and the way of finding truth in math is by doing argument and exploring the ideas...
02:03:22 <pikhq> which is all well and good; i have no objections, and consider math's typical approaches quite valid and rigorous ways of doing things
02:03:58 <pikhq> _but_, science is about methodological empiricism
02:05:24 <pikhq> within science, that which is true or false is discerned by observation of the outside world, and devising tests to better be able to observe the outside world -- those ideas which are shown to be consistent with what you see are (assumed) correct, and those ideas which are not are known to be wrong
03:14:54 <Corbin> Yeah. The main difference between formality in maths and formality in writing is that maths is "formally formal" these days; the way in which maths cares about formality can be used to derive and extrapolate the entirety of the rest of maths.
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03:25:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Easyaspi314 * New user account
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04:24:15 <nakilon> math is an observational notation for physics
04:26:03 <nakilon> making notes sometimes help to discover laws of nature that we didn't yet use
04:30:22 <nakilon> teology researches specific fields of psychology that is based on evolution and biology
04:31:17 <nakilon> that is based on chemistry that is based on physics again
04:50:24 <zzo38> OK, but that does not make either math or theology to be science (although it describes their relation to science, at least according to one opinion)
04:58:09 <zzo38> Those are valid points, though. I am guessing that "teology" is supposed to be "theology"
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05:02:15 <zzo38> Another thing is xkcd 435, although it doesn't mention theology.
05:03:52 <zzo38> Math is not only an observational notation for physics, I think. But, that is one way that mathematics can be used. I am platonist though; the mathematics itself is still what it is even independently of the study and of the applications, although you can still have those things too
05:13:01 <nakilon> yeah I always confuse t and th because in russian it's always just t
05:13:19 <nakilon> we always don't join letters to build sounds
05:14:14 <nakilon> or was it th because of being based on ancient language? idk
05:15:34 <nakilon> what does it mean you are platonist?
05:15:59 <nakilon> google takes the "Platonism is the view that there exist such things as abstract objects — where an abstract object is an object that does not exist in space or time and which is therefore entirely non-physical and non-mental. Platonism in this sense is a contemporary view" out of the whole huge wikipedia article
05:16:18 <Corbin> It means that some mathematical objects ("abstracta") aren't physical objects in reality.
05:18:16 <nakilon> would you be able to research math without having physics? like would you some day invent some modern fresh discovered laws if you was living all your life with closed eyes drifting in vacuum?
05:18:51 <^[> Corbin: What's the alternative? I'd be hard-pressed to find a real number line out in the wild.
05:18:56 <Corbin> Yes. Many parts of number theory are extremely unphysical.
05:20:19 <Corbin> ^[: Some folks bring with them a metaphysics or ontology which asserts that all described things either exist or don't exist. It can be a journey just to go beyond that.
05:23:15 <^[> I think this is the part where I ask for a definition of "to exist", but I'm not falling for that one again!
05:25:35 <Corbin> Tao has a wonderful post about this: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/the-no-self-defeating-object-argument/
05:27:42 <nakilon> but then how is mathematically moving abstract things around different from "creating falsifiable theories"?
05:27:56 <nakilon> btw math is full of theories too that only later either get proved or disproved
05:28:37 <nakilon> literally half of those lists of "unsolved problems"
05:28:45 <spruit11> platonism draws a lot from the thought that there are 'essences' out there, idealized notions which underpin real objects. it's very old but people used to think in those terms
05:29:46 <spruit11> these days, one favored take is that math mostly deals with 'consistency', although you run into Godel
05:34:39 <Corbin> nakilon: Mathematical English is very specific here. A "theorem" is a proof statement. A "theory" is a field of research into some sort of objects.
05:35:59 <spruit11> often mathematicians will still say they are 'platonists' which means they think reality is mathematical at heart
05:38:00 <Corbin> My personal Platonism is based on observations like the fact that the empty set isn't at any one particular location in spacetime, so it's not located in physical reality. Indeed it's only located within set theories.
05:43:21 <nakilon> I'm not saying about "set theory" or "propability theory" etc., I mean when they say "there is no solution to this equation, I have no proof but we'll jerk on it for the next 500 years"
05:45:03 <nakilon> similar to how we didn't know or didn't believe Einstein but still were able to fly at least above the clouds
05:45:26 <nakilon> many people still don't believe him
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05:47:43 <nakilon> probably there is a term for people who don't bother learning and prefer to build the imaginary world around based on likes and dislikes and would respond aggressively if you ask them to read a page on wikipedia and stuff
05:49:50 <esolangs> [[SLOW ACV MAMMALIAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85395&oldid=31933 * Bangyen * (+1291)
05:58:10 <Corbin> It's actually worse than that. Modern cryptography relies on the idea of one-way functions. We don't know whether one-way functions exist.
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06:22:04 <chronon> Surely one way functions exist. A hash function has no inverse for example.
06:24:16 <Corbin> We don't even know about P vs. NP. I personally assume that we're in a world where NP-complete problems can take exponential time (99% confidence), but I could be completely wrong.
06:25:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:AmNow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85396 * Bangyen * (+285) Created page with "=== [[=,-&~]] Question === I'm looking to create an interpreter for [[=,-&~]], but I had a couple questions that I posted on the talk page. Whenever you're free, clarification..."
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06:31:07 <chronon> Hash functions cannot be inverted because there is information loss in the forward process.
06:33:05 <chronon> I assume the NSA/GCHQ etc have massive databases of precomputed hashes so that they can reverse them by lookup, and same for large nearly primes, etc.
06:36:22 <Corbin> Or fix the input size, as is common in many practical attacks. Indeed, many hashes are broken by use cases like passwords, where the input is shorter than the internal state of the hash. I think sponge constructions can help with this a bit.
06:37:10 <chronon> I don't think *my* passswords have less entropy than the hashes. haha
06:37:21 <shachaf> My passwords certainly do.
06:38:02 <shachaf> People talking about inverting a hash function don't mean finding the specific original input, just any input that hashes to a particular value.
06:38:51 <chronon> I generate my passwords using hash functions, so I think by definition I'm ok. It's only the site that won't allow long keys that cause a sel-inflicted wound.
06:38:55 <Corbin> e.g. Bitcoin would be completely broken by this, even if SHA-256 isn't fully invertible.
06:39:57 <chronon> Yes, if you only need to find a hash collision it is easier than finding the original input.
06:40:36 <chronon> Hmm, there is a #crypto channel I think. ha!
06:50:23 <riv> yes we covered this exact question a couple days ago
06:58:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:CodyNinja1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85397 * CodyNinja1 * (+1) h
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07:48:17 <nakilon> so it's like 3 months passed since I made my personal hash-based storage and no one has since then broke it -- what was the point to make a few pages of flame?
07:48:36 <riv> hash-based storage is a really nice idea
07:50:34 <nakilon> oh, 1 month, I've lost a feel of time
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08:39:32 <chronon> What was the hash-based storage thing?
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09:15:55 <esolangs> [[A Slow Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85398 * Dominicentek * (+2412) Created page with "A Slow Language is a 2D [[Befunge]]-like esoteric programming language made for a [https://www.youtube.com/user/luigiman2700 Truttle1] Esolang Jam. You control a turtle on an..."
09:17:07 <riv> maybe its different by in my case
09:17:26 <riv> you have a store/ directory where files are stored, the filename is the hash of the data in it
09:17:37 <riv> then you have a directory with symlinks into the store
09:17:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85399&oldid=85390 * Dominicentek * (+22) /* A */
09:17:43 <riv> so files can have normal paths and names
09:17:52 <riv> but everything is deduplicated automatically
09:19:27 <chronon> Ah, I see. I was thinking of doing exactly that for a backup solution. Never got round to setting it up though.
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09:25:01 <riv> i suppose deduplication could be implemented at the filesystem level
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10:04:55 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85400&oldid=85209 * Dominicentek * (+22)
10:13:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:=,-&~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85401&oldid=85374 * AmNow * (+149)
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10:32:12 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85402&oldid=85269 * Provitia * (-385) /* Package reference */
10:35:10 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85403&oldid=85402 * Provitia * (-179) /* Truth machine */
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10:50:53 <esolangs> [[Pops Are Overrated]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85404&oldid=85253 * AmNow * (+18) clarification
10:51:48 <esolangs> [[=,-&~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85405&oldid=85297 * AmNow * (+31) Clarification
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10:53:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:=,-&~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85406&oldid=85401 * AmNow * (+119)
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10:55:30 <esolangs> [[!aoQ):]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85407&oldid=85391 * AmNow * (+0)
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11:14:56 * oerjan manglol a magyar nyelvet egy kicsit b_jonasnak
11:15:13 <HackEso> Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms.
11:15:21 <oerjan> now with more hungarian
11:20:03 <oerjan> i think i got the words right but not sure of the order
11:20:35 * oerjan vaguely remembers something about topic/focus order
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11:24:17 * oerjan megmanglol b_jonasnak egy kicsit a magyar nyelvet
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11:36:28 <esolangs> [[User:That dude]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85408&oldid=38259 * That dude * (-273)
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12:14:23 <esolangs> [[Bedroom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85409 * AmNow * (+1103) content
12:14:52 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85410&oldid=85393 * AmNow * (+13) added lang
12:15:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85411&oldid=85399 * AmNow * (+14) added lang
12:19:26 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85412&oldid=85410 * AmNow * (+25)
12:42:43 <esolangs> [[A Slow Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85413&oldid=85398 * Dominicentek * (+18)
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13:44:31 <oerjan> forgot the object agreement.
13:46:10 <oerjan> on the plus side, it now looks like an obscure swedish health product
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15:15:00 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85414&oldid=85377 * PixelatedStarfish * (+339)
15:15:37 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85415&oldid=85414 * PixelatedStarfish * (-13) /* Logic Gates */
15:20:37 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85416&oldid=85415 * PixelatedStarfish * (+58) /* Logic Gates */
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16:54:50 <myname> you are doing it right now
16:56:30 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85417&oldid=85403 * Provitia * (+176) /* Package reference */
16:58:36 <fizzie> Yes; one that doesn't do much, just the wiki recent changes and logging.
16:59:11 <zzo38> Is there a such thing as LLVM with macros?
16:59:43 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85418&oldid=85417 * Provitia * (+31) /* Package reference */
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17:08:27 <^[> Would you consider any language with an LLVM frontend as being macros for the IR?
17:09:19 <nakilon> is it a good web design if 18 pieces of text on your page are written in 16 different styles?
17:10:16 <nakilon> 3 out of 3 voters voted that I'm wrong saying that it is bad
17:10:43 <^[> If it's good enough for Time Cube, it should be good enough for you.
17:10:59 <nakilon> subj: https://i.imgur.com/71PjkfA.png
17:17:18 <^[> What's the problem with that?
17:28:54 <nakilon> that 18 pieces of text have 16 different styles?
17:29:05 <nakilon> seems nothing bad, same as with these
17:29:26 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/c45hhKi.png
17:29:31 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/bLDkwxh.png
17:32:38 <^[> It might be a question of whether the styles are being put to good use.
17:35:16 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85419&oldid=85416 * PixelatedStarfish * (+37) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
17:35:32 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85420&oldid=85419 * PixelatedStarfish * (-30) /* External resources */
17:35:43 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85421&oldid=85420 * PixelatedStarfish * (-29) /* External resources */
17:35:44 <zzo38> nakilon: I think that it is probably bad (although I cannot be sure that there are not circumstances where such a thing is helpful).
17:36:15 <zzo38> I think usually is best to avoid the styles entirely
17:37:47 <zzo38> ^[: No I don't consider any language with an LLVM frontend as being macros for the IR; I mean to be more closely with LLVM directly, but with macros (which can be used for target-dependent stuff as well as for whatever other purposes you can use macros for)
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17:51:40 <esolangs> [[A Slow Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85422&oldid=85413 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+113) /* Interpreter */ Cats
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18:14:13 <esolangs> [[A Slow Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85423&oldid=85422 * Dominicentek * (+84) Added another hello world example
18:14:52 <esolangs> [[A Slow Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85424&oldid=85423 * Dominicentek * (+0) Fixed cat program
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18:38:33 <esolangs> [[!aoQ):]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85425&oldid=85407 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* Quine */ Cat
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18:56:58 <esolangs> [[Bedroom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85426&oldid=85409 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) /* Truth Machine */ Cats
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20:09:11 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85427&oldid=85421 * PixelatedStarfish * (+161) /* Pointer operations */
20:09:28 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85428&oldid=85427 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Pointer operations */
20:10:07 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85429&oldid=85428 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) /* Grammar */
20:10:55 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85430&oldid=85429 * PixelatedStarfish * (-137) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
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20:11:57 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85431&oldid=85430 * PixelatedStarfish * (+56) /* External resources */
20:12:07 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85432&oldid=85431 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* External resources */
20:15:19 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85433&oldid=85432 * PixelatedStarfish * (+27) /* Tobysil */
20:15:41 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85434&oldid=85433 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Restrictions */
20:39:19 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85435&oldid=85434 * PixelatedStarfish * (+169) /* Logic Gates */
20:40:24 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85436&oldid=85435 * PixelatedStarfish * (+45) /* Memory Muncher */
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20:45:40 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85437&oldid=85436 * PixelatedStarfish * (+99) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
20:46:07 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85438&oldid=85437 * PixelatedStarfish * (+8) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
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21:40:29 <fizzie> This is IRC, not Discord.
21:43:08 <fizzie> Sounds likely. As far as I know, we've never had any Discord bridges.
21:44:13 <NotApplicable> I know on the Esolangs Discord they have a relay to IRC of *some* sort
21:44:42 <NotApplicable> and this was the channel that it said to go to via the Community Portal
21:47:23 <fizzie> We're not affiliated (and probably don't really even have any overlap?) with either of the two discords, and that was the case for freenode #esoteric (which this channel is a continuation of) as well, so if they have an IRC relay, it's to somewhere else.
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22:24:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: makes sense, though it's not such a crazy idea to think that we might have a Discord overlay
22:24:53 <b_jonas> it's just that if we tried that, we'd have to set a new one up every two years as people migrate to a different app
22:25:21 <b_jonas> like, we'd have to set up a facebook bridge, an instagram bridge, a tiktok bridge, whatever the latest trend is
22:26:10 <fizzie[m]> At least with this Matrix thing, there's a network-wide bridge in place.
22:26:14 <NotApplicable> 2 years doesnt seem to be all that bad, especially with such a large community like this
22:28:28 <b_jonas> NotApplicable: yeah, but who is there in this community who follows the latest trendy apps and sets up bridges for that? I'm not saying that we're getting old, because fresh young people arrive all the time, but still
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23:56:10 <esolangs> [[SLOW ACV MAMMALIAN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85439&oldid=85395 * Bangyen * (-2)
23:56:53 <esolangs> [[Circlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85440&oldid=85344 * Bangyen * (-2)
00:22:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85441&oldid=85237 * AmNow * (+20) 2+2=4
00:32:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85442&oldid=85441 * AmNow * (+25) 4-1 != X
00:33:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85443&oldid=85442 * AmNow * (+1) fix
01:06:15 <esolangs> [[Godencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85444&oldid=84807 * Plasmath * (+1583) Added subtraction and made a minor tweak.
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03:30:00 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85445&oldid=85438 * PixelatedStarfish * (+77) /* Pointer operations */
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03:47:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Eval]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85446 * Bangyen * (+380) Created page with "== Instruction Question == In the description for the <code>'</code> command, what's meant by pushing double quotes at the start and end? Are double quotes pushed at the begin..."
05:46:37 <nakilon> discord is for pasting gifs while voicechatting
05:48:29 <nakilon> when the League of Legends developers realised they aren't proficient enough to add voicechat in the game they outsourced the development of a dedicated website for that that is basically a copy of skype but worse, and they had no designers -- that's how Discord appeared
05:57:50 <nakilon> b_jonas hey, you know perl, right? do you have any idea how this code maps "rb" to "ruby" or vice versa? because this is probably the pygments code https://github.com/formorer/paste.pl/blob/32e7f1e4a92a6a71fe16e2dea9b30aefb72ae010/lib/Paste/Template/Plugin/Highlight.pm#L328 and it says "ruby" while their web page sends "rb"
06:02:35 <nakilon> oh, maybe it's somewhere inside pygments since this looks like just a separate task to get the "aliases" https://github.com/formorer/paste.pl/blob/32e7f1e4a92a6a71fe16e2dea9b30aefb72ae010/get_lexer.py
06:10:02 <nakilon> damn, my pygments file and their https://github.com/formorer/paste.pl/blob/32e7f1e4a92a6a71fe16e2dea9b30aefb72ae010/langs#L62 are pretty different https://dpaste.org/T9Zj/slim
06:18:30 <zzo38> ON TI-92, if you set errornum to a number whose integer part is 4 (regardless of the fractional part), and then write something with : and then PassErr then a strange thing will be caused by that
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06:53:33 <esolangs> [[BIO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85447&oldid=66718 * Bangyen * (+25)
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08:07:15 <esolangs> [[BIO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85448&oldid=85447 * Bangyen * (+94) /* Implementation */
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09:50:45 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85449&oldid=85356 * Rphii * (-53) /* Commands */ remove nonsense
09:54:59 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85450&oldid=85449 * Rphii * (+38) /* Commands */ add good nonsense
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10:17:41 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85451&oldid=85450 * Rphii * (+0) /* Calculator */ fix mistake
10:22:37 <esolangs> [[8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85452&oldid=85382 * AmNow * (+1) /* Truth Machine */ fixed
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10:41:51 <esolangs> [[%]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85453 * AmNow * (+736) contents
10:42:33 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85454&oldid=85412 * AmNow * (+12) added lang
10:43:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85455&oldid=85411 * AmNow * (+10) added lang
10:56:23 <nakilon> so 21 pastebins in that table I made have official API, I made my CLI use 3 of them; gonna try to record a gif with https://github.com/faressoft/terminalizer
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10:58:33 <esolangs> [[!aoQ):]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85456&oldid=85425 * AmNow * (+0) fixed commands
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11:30:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85457&oldid=85443 * AmNow * (+81) m
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11:58:02 <esolangs> [[AMiaBF!?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85458 * AmNow * (+842) content
11:59:05 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85459&oldid=85454 * AmNow * (+20) added lang
12:02:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85460&oldid=85455 * AmNow * (+18) added lang
12:09:18 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85461&oldid=85418 * Oshaboy * (+86)
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12:20:28 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85462&oldid=85461 * Oshaboy * (-86) Undo revision 85461 by [[Special:Contributions/Oshaboy|Oshaboy]] ([[User talk:Oshaboy|talk]])
12:27:50 <esolangs> [[H]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85463 * Andrew3335 * (+2062) Created page with "''Note that '''h''' is typically lowercased.'' '''h''' is a programming language created by Nerdaxe#9443 which is extremely limited. Every program is an arbitrarily long but..."
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12:51:02 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85464&oldid=85463 * VilgotanL * (-100) fix and change implementation to <pre>
12:54:16 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85465&oldid=85464 * VilgotanL * (+108) add categories
13:05:10 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85466&oldid=85445 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Pointer operations */ Fix
13:11:16 <esolangs> [[AMiaBF!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85467&oldid=85458 * AmNow * (+4) linked to page
13:11:32 <esolangs> [[Eval]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85468&oldid=75805 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Commands */ Clarify
13:11:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Eval]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85469&oldid=85446 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+220) Reply
13:11:50 <esolangs> [[AMiaBF!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85470&oldid=85467 * AmNow * (-2) fixed link
13:17:03 <esolangs> [[%]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85471&oldid=85453 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+153) Cats, link
13:17:23 <esolangs> [[%]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85472&oldid=85471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Commands */ Was missing word
13:18:26 <esolangs> [[AMiaBF!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85473&oldid=85470 * AmNow * (-2)
13:19:14 <esolangs> [[AMiaBF!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85474&oldid=85473 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) Cat
13:23:57 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1238.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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13:50:00 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85475&oldid=85465 * VilgotanL * (+304) add my infinite loop
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13:53:11 <VilgotanL> i have a question why do people use a <div> with some css instead of just a <pre> on esolangs?
13:55:24 <fizzie> In some cases, it's probably because they want to include some markup in the text, not just make it uniformly monospace.
13:55:52 <fizzie> And in others, maybe just people copying what they've seen other pages do, even where it doesn't make a difference.
13:56:28 <VilgotanL> in some cases i found a page where the code broke cause it had intentation
13:58:19 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85476&oldid=85475 * VilgotanL * (-200) change rest of code <div>s to <pre>
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14:29:23 <nakilon> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/2870363/123653688-11005480-d836-11eb-8e07-3a9562c8596f.gif
14:30:43 <nakilon> I know that it's hard to follow but there is no easy way to edit recording frame lengths because I had to use ffmpeg wrapper instead of something that would capture the terminal
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14:31:16 <nakilon> because both popular utilities for that are in pithon and so unsurprisingly both of them don't install neither in OS natively nor in docker neither in alpine nor ubuntu
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17:50:33 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85477&oldid=85476 * VilgotanL * (+46) add quine
18:07:01 <arseniiv> hi hi how are you I got a mild sunburn despite preferring to be under shade. Is there an esolang based on sunburns?
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18:29:02 <zzo38> I don't know. If you know how to make up such a thing, then you can try, maybe.
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18:44:28 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85478 * Kemuri * (+2187) Created page with "JBFM7L - "Jitejix, But For Masohists 7th Level" Almost the same concept of Jitejix, but some thing got even weirder and there are less operations. Now almost everything is b..."
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18:51:24 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85479&oldid=85478 * Kemuri * (+40)
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18:52:22 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85480&oldid=85479 * Kemuri * (+2)
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19:07:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85481&oldid=85460 * Kemuri * (+13) /* J */
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19:10:56 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85482&oldid=85480 * Kemuri * (+115) /* Instructions */
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19:51:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spargle * New user account
20:01:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85483&oldid=85394 * Spargle * (+195) /* Introductions */
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20:05:42 <esolangs> [[User:Spargle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85484 * Spargle * (+11) yep thats all
20:18:09 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85485 * Spargle * (+389) Created page with "== The world's stupidest language. == === Syntax: === * : prints ''A'' forever<br> * : starts up a local testing environment on ''port 80''<br> * : download the late..."
20:21:42 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85486&oldid=85481 * Spargle * (+16) /* S */
20:22:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85487&oldid=85486 * Spargle * (+17) /* Non-alphabetic */
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20:30:59 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85488&oldid=85485 * Spargle * (-8) /* Links: */
20:31:13 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85489&oldid=85488 * Spargle * (+53) /* The world's stupidest language. */
20:36:18 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85490&oldid=85482 * Kemuri * (+323)
20:37:09 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85491&oldid=85490 * Kemuri * (+3) /* Hello World */
20:38:26 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85492&oldid=85491 * Kemuri * (-357) /* Hello World */
20:43:47 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85493&oldid=85492 * Kemuri * (+124) /* Hello World */
20:44:23 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85494&oldid=85493 * Kemuri * (-12) /* Hello World */
20:57:16 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85495&oldid=85489 * Spargle * (+121) /* The world's stupidest language. */
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22:16:42 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85496&oldid=85494 * Kemuri * (-83) /* Instructions */
22:20:33 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85497&oldid=85496 * Kemuri * (+96) /* Instructions */
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23:35:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85498&oldid=85487 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17) Undo revision 85487 by [[Special:Contributions/Spargle|Spargle]] ([[User talk:Spargle|talk]]) Please do not add alphabetic languages to the non-alphabetic list.
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00:28:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DemiCD64 * New user account
00:34:02 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85499&oldid=85466 * PixelatedStarfish * (+42) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
01:07:47 <zzo38> As far as I could tell, the .NET specification requires specific code for the DOS stub (which says this program cannot run in DOS mode), which isn't very good if you cannot customize it.
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01:09:34 <zzo38> You might want to change the error message (e.g. "This program requires .NET/Mono"), or to check for and execute another program in the same directory which implements .NET on DOS (and might require DLMI, maybe)
01:17:51 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85500&oldid=84908 * PolySaken * (+25) /* Error Reporting */ Update to latest
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01:29:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85501&oldid=85483 * DemiCD64 * (+207)
01:30:09 <esolangs> [[SWING]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85502 * DemiCD64 * (+1459) Created page with "SWING is an esoteric programming language created by Alan Kubiak, written in DPL. == Characteristics == The SWING programming language works using numerical values only. ==..."
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03:14:02 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85503&oldid=85500 * PolySaken * (+363) /* Execution */
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05:01:30 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85504&oldid=85503 * PolySaken * (+526) /* Execution */
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07:11:25 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85505&oldid=85504 * PolySaken * (+85) /* Execution */
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08:13:21 <nakilon> https://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/old90/constant.html
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08:48:15 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85506&oldid=85451 * Rphii * (+136) /* Examples */ added FizzBuzz example
08:51:48 <nakilon> found an interesting read on what is "blog" and what were the first blogs: https://www.netfunny.com/rhf/oldest-blog.html
08:52:09 <nakilon> is there any interesting read on what is "hacker" and what are the initial definitions?
08:54:14 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85507&oldid=85506 * Rphii * (-143) /* Using a Scope */ remove since there is the FizzBuzz example
09:01:24 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85508&oldid=85505 * PolySaken * (-30) /* Sources */
09:06:24 <zzo38> They mention finger; the protocol is similar enough to gopher that you can use gopher URLs.
09:06:43 <nakilon> wiktionary leads here http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/hacker.html
09:07:25 <zzo38> Also, you can still make a NNTP-based blog too, either moderated or unmoderated.
09:08:01 <zzo38> (My own NNTP server software does not implement moderated newsgroups, although you can use another one, or add to the one I did)
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09:29:14 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85509&oldid=85508 * PolySaken * (+0) /* Execution */
09:36:53 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85510&oldid=85507 * Rphii * (+0) /* Timers */ fix mess-up (pushing order)
09:41:03 <nakilon> also this https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1392
09:47:43 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85511&oldid=85509 * PolySaken * (+47) /* Sources */
09:50:18 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85512&oldid=85511 * PolySaken * (-9) /* Sources */
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10:15:56 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85513&oldid=85510 * Rphii * (+84) added categories
10:18:48 <esolangs> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85514&oldid=80623 * GrapeApple * (-1) Change GitHub username
10:29:21 <Taneb> Are there any declarative two-dimensional languages
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12:08:24 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85515&oldid=85462 * Provitia * (+6) /* Package reference */
12:08:45 <esolangs> [[HakerScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85516&oldid=85515 * Provitia * (+49) /* Implementations */
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12:26:41 <nakilon> Taneb https://imgur.com/a/mmGF1iT
12:29:16 <nakilon> http://www.nakilon.pro/esolang.htm
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12:57:37 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85517&oldid=85513 * Rphii * (-3) /* FizzBuzz */ improve
12:59:43 <nakilon> hm, there is some bug on my page that trims the '?' ..(
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13:01:00 <esolangs> [[!aoQ):]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85518&oldid=85456 * AmNow * (-1) string
13:05:14 <esolangs> [[AMiaBF!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85519&oldid=85474 * AmNow * (+19) cats: year
13:16:47 <esolangs> [[SWING]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85520&oldid=85502 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) Cats
13:27:33 <esolangs> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85521&oldid=85514 * GrapeApple * (+316) Some changes
13:28:02 <esolangs> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85522&oldid=85521 * GrapeApple * (-37) Remove warning
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15:04:24 <esolangs> [[ItOi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85523&oldid=84504 * Grs * (-23)
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15:23:01 <wib_jonas> Taneb: yes, https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%3F
15:29:33 <Taneb> I was thinking, a lot of programming languages have a very linear sort of temporality
15:30:10 <wib_jonas> possibly also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tableaux , I honestly don't understand how that works, every time I try to read the description, it confuses me, so I gave up
15:30:33 <wib_jonas> it has something two-dimensional and something declarative, but might not be a two-dimensional langauge according to the usual definition
15:30:43 <Taneb> And I was wondering how to break free of that linearity
15:31:09 <wib_jonas> Taneb: then I think you want But Is It Art
15:34:54 <Taneb> I see it comes from the time when I stopped paying attention to esolangs because aaah university
15:38:01 <wib_jonas> but Feather probably also breaks out of the linear sort of temporality
15:38:50 <Taneb> Yes, I was briefly worried that it had become my turn to invent Feather
15:43:24 <wib_jonas> (and of course git, with its stupid way of copying a timestamp when you non-squish cherry-pick a commit, so there's no way to tell when the commit actually got created, unless you manage to find it in the reflog of the original repo where it got created, all other repos will just have a reflog time when it got pushed or fetched there)
15:45:03 <wib_jonas> (I hate git. a version control system is supposed to be able to tell you the state of a branch at a particular time, but that relies on real timestamps that the server sets rather then believing whatever timestamp the client tells them, especially when that timestamp is usually fake for cherry-picks.)
15:50:20 <wib_jonas> Taneb: something similar to But Is It Art would be to take a nondeterministic finite automaton without inputs and with finite time, that is, your program consists of an alphabet of states, one special state designated as the edge (start and end) state, a set of pairs of states that can appear horizontally one after the other, a set of pairs of
15:50:21 <wib_jonas> states that can appear vertically one after the other, and execution succeeds if you can fill a rectangular grid of unknown size with a state in each cell such that the edge state appears in the top/bottom/left/right edges but nowhere else, two horizontally adjacent states are in the first set, two vertically adjacent states are the second set.
15:51:36 <wib_jonas> you could in fact simulate But Is It Art with such a finite automaton, with one state for each non-space character occurrance in the BIIA program source code
15:52:04 <wib_jonas> simulating backwards is a bit more difficult, because it's hard to exclude that edges can only occur at the edge
15:52:36 <wib_jonas> plus of course you'd need to grow the program to use a larger tile for each single cell of this finite automaton
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16:52:01 <zzo38> Do you prefer other version control systems, such as fossil (which records the date/time of commits by the D card)?
16:53:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Zero player rodent * uploaded "[[File:Eek.png]]": Logo for the Eek! programming language
16:55:15 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85525&oldid=84853 * Zero player rodent * (+43)
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18:18:26 <esolangs> [[Patternfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85526&oldid=83508 * Robolta * (+99)
18:18:45 <esolangs> [[Patternfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85527&oldid=85526 * Robolta * (+24)
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18:26:38 <esolangs> [[User:Robolta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85528&oldid=80140 * Robolta * (-13) /* Created Esolangs */
18:26:47 <esolangs> [[)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85529 * AmNow * (+1277) contents
18:27:27 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85530&oldid=85459 * AmNow * (+14) added lang
18:28:57 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85531&oldid=85498 * AmNow * (+8) added lang
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19:56:48 <riv> I heard somethin estoeric
19:57:12 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eelVqfm8vVc
19:57:14 <riv> there are different clocks
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21:11:58 <zzo38> One of my ideas is to make AT_FDCWD to be an ordinary file descriptor. Also a newfd function, causing the next call that opens a file descriptor to use the specified number instead of a new one; if it is already open, then the old file descriptor is closed if the open is sucessful (and left alone otherwise); the newfd is cancelled afterward either way, whether successful or not.
21:13:19 <zzo38> Also PIDFD, which if added to a file descriptor number then the sum can be used where a process ID is expected. PIDFD-1 is never valid, and numbers less than PIDFD-1 are process ID numbers.
21:29:00 <riv> that sounds like a good feature
21:57:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: you mention that pid thing, but I still don't think that's a good idea, it sounds dangerous, though I can't really tell why, and if you want to do such a thing, it should be a bit in a separate flag argument rather than added into the pid number
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22:33:11 <zzo38> riv: At least one danger might be avoided by PIDFD-1 being never valid. Also, I don't really like adding separate system calls for this and is why I prefer this way
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23:07:02 <esolangs> [[Knight]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85532 * Easyaspi314 * (+5132) Create page
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23:17:39 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85533&oldid=85495 * Spargle * (+49) /* Syntax: */
23:18:30 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85534&oldid=85533 * Spargle * (+65) /* The world's stupidest language. */
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23:32:26 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85535 * AmNow * (+657) Created page with " is a [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] made by [[User:AmNow]]. == Command == has only one command: . It increments an 8-bit accumulator.<br> At the end of any p..."
23:33:57 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85536&oldid=85530 * AmNow * (+23) added lang
23:34:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85537&oldid=85531 * AmNow * (+10) added lang
23:34:39 <esolangs> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85538&oldid=85522 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* External resources */ at
23:36:30 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85539&oldid=85535 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+89) /* Spam #s to the console */ Cats
23:36:38 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85540&oldid=85539 * AmNow * (-18) removed unnecessary condition
23:36:50 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85541&oldid=85540 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Spam #s to the console */ cat
23:38:49 <esolangs> [[)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85542&oldid=85529 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Factorial */ cAts
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00:28:29 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85543&oldid=85499 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) /* Grammar */
00:31:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85544&oldid=85537 * Easyaspi314 * (+13) /* K */ Add Knight
00:43:45 <esolangs> [[Knight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85545&oldid=85532 * Easyaspi314 * (+0) /* Syntax */ fix typo
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03:30:56 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85547&oldid=85534 * Spargle * (-108) /* The world's stupidest language. */
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04:22:04 <esolangs> [[Metabox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85548&oldid=85546 * Bangyen * (-7)
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07:16:37 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts-per_notation#Uno lmao
07:22:34 <riv> https://twitter.com/Thinkwert/status/1409981370269642755
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09:30:03 <arseniiv> @tell riv oh, NativLang is a cool channel
09:30:29 <arseniiv> though I haven’t watched the clock video
09:33:25 <nakilon> has anyone did this? https://docs.docker.com/engine/security/userns-remap/
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12:13:34 <wib_jonas> fungot, did Michael Jordan really retire only three times, or is this some particularly weird interpretation where he decided that some of his retirements don't really count and he threatens to sue journalists who disagree?
12:13:34 <fungot> wib_jonas: intrinsic sin... original sin would be nice if the link was supposed to be very, very quirky. use makeinfo --html. it's a herring.
12:18:38 <fungot> nakilon: the only thing keeping me from seeing the musical mama mia, which was what you'd think
12:20:12 <wib_jonas> fungot: I bet it's the pandemic. it kept a lot of people from watching musicals.
12:20:12 <fungot> wib_jonas: from forcix.cx, " some yellow things are sickly", " the inventor of thutu/ cyclexa mix
12:26:36 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85549&oldid=84302 * Batata * (-13)
12:27:23 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85550&oldid=85549 * Batata * (-35)
12:27:41 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85551&oldid=85550 * Batata * (+0)
12:29:18 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85552&oldid=85024 * Toxinite * (+80)
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14:22:21 <^[> arseniiv: For an esolang based on sunburns, you could have something that continuously corrupts the code, with a mechanism to do error correction.
14:24:20 <Corbin> Is cancer a stopping condition or merely a weirder machine?
14:25:18 <nakilon> a cellular automata that segfaults in the end
14:28:41 <nakilon> btw, do you know why people don't live forever? because there are such things like prions -- IIRC they get into your organism and grow like we grow, and when they are mature they are killing us
14:30:18 <Corbin> I thought that it was because of the expansion of the universe.
14:30:21 <nakilon> but we are able to give a birth of a child who does not have these prions in his organism so he gets them from the food and stuff and grows them inside until they kill him
14:31:07 <^[> I think the canonical answer has been "telomere shortening" for some time now, but I'm sure it's more nuanced than that.
14:31:22 <^[> Prion disease doesn't seem to be all that common.
14:31:41 <nakilon> and this why cannibalism is dangerous -- when you eat someone of your kind you get his prions which might be enough mature already if the person you eat is older than you
14:32:22 <nakilon> yeah there might be other reasons to die
14:32:55 <nakilon> it only depends on which one of them will kill you first
14:32:57 <Corbin> nakilon: A version of your argument with slightly more evidence is lead; lead particles are thought to interfere at a chemical level with the formation of RNA. But usually neither lead nor prions are the cause of death, and we don't have evidence that their buildup is inevitable.
14:33:58 <nakilon> Corbin IIRC this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creutzfeldt%E2%80%93Jakob_disease
14:34:45 <nakilon> someone made cows eat each other so their disease of that kind became more mature in their organism
14:35:44 <Corbin> nakilon: Yes, but as we know from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease) the solution is "don't eat diseased creatures"
14:36:03 <esolangs> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85554&oldid=85538 * GrapeApple * (-6)
14:36:28 <arseniiv> <^[> arseniiv: For an esolang based on sunburns, you could have something that continuously corrupts the code, with a mechanism to do error correction. => interesting idea!
14:36:44 <nakilon> diseased species of your kind
14:37:25 <Corbin> ^[, arseniiv: If the level of corruption (random bit flips?) decreases over time, then this sounds like a generalization of simulated annealing.
14:37:26 <hanif> what's to stop prions from crossing species?
14:38:15 <^[> Different species have different proteins, so the wrong kind of prions won't be able to do any harm.
14:38:34 <nakilon> imagine a machine that can cure itself from viruses by replicating a clean new copy of itself of enough high garauntee to not have the viruses it already has
14:38:51 <arseniiv> I remember thinking something about chemical soup esolang with temperature acting in some way, though I don’t remember anything now
14:39:05 <nakilon> hanif AFAIK we have different prions
14:40:00 <nakilon> arseniiv did you eat the soup when you got this idea?
14:42:19 <nakilon> arseniiv https://catseye.tc/article/Automata.md#noit-o-mnain-worb
14:42:23 <arseniiv> nakilon: lol :D most probably no
14:43:27 <nakilon> "Schrödinger's Game of Life" --- ahaha, just reading such title make my day
14:43:51 <nakilon> how it feel just to know that there is another crazy stuff in the world
14:45:06 <arseniiv> I think my idea was to use molecular graphs and predefine rules of their interactions in a profitable way, then the programmer specifies just the molecules he wants and it should compute something. The bottleneck was deciding how many elements and what rules to have
14:46:38 <arseniiv> some reactions would input or output characters, like I think when Hg is involved as Mercury is a messenger
14:46:46 <nakilon> like Spacechem but with rules?
14:48:33 <arseniiv> also maybe I planned that thing to be non-deterministic, but not to the bone, like reactions of some atom groups having precedence over others, unless temperature is high
14:48:54 <nakilon> I wonder why deadly prions, viruses and bacterias exist -- do they know that they are deadly?
14:48:56 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85555&oldid=85547 * Spargle * (+99) /* Syntax: */
14:49:14 <nakilon> do they have to exist? does it mean that malware will exist too in any way?
14:49:36 <arseniiv> do they have is an interesting but hard question I think
14:50:05 <arseniiv> it depends on how much unlike to ours we allow potential universes to be
14:50:28 <arseniiv> and quantifying this stuff seems very hard to me
14:50:31 <Corbin> nakilon: I need to make a video on this, because AFAICT none exist. There's a thought experiment, Pirsig's Chemistry Professor, which explains that every emergent level of complexity comes with its own morality-like rules.
14:50:57 <nakilon> I believe if I was reading sci-fi I would know a lot of stories about invading other planet to see how world is absolutely different
14:51:07 <nakilon> I just need another spare life to read them
14:51:27 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85556&oldid=85555 * Spargle * (+88) /* Examples: */
14:51:54 <Corbin> The bulk of it is that "deadly" is about the morality of people, which is much higher-level (more emergent and complex) than proteins, DNA, or single-celled life. Each of those three things still exists at their own level of complexity and behaves according to their own fundamental rules.
14:52:23 <arseniiv> human stories though need to be more or less human-reachable so our sci-fi is not a good technique to approximate possible universes
14:52:45 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85557&oldid=84887 * Rphii * (+85)
14:52:48 <Corbin> (Pirsig specifically imagines a chemistry teacher sitting on a beach. The laws of chemistry say that the Sun and surf should dissolve them, but they don't; why not? Pirsig's answer is because homeostasis is part of life, not part of chemistry.)
14:53:10 <nakilon> doesn't any living thing have a definition of death? when it just dies and only its replicants live
14:55:01 <arseniiv> I totally get how frustrating it is to watch infections destroy precious things. A fly bit me two days ago and it wreaked havoc on my poor leg, now I need seven different meds to bring it back to health pronto, and still that would be at least a week :-\
14:55:42 <arseniiv> though I wouldn’t distinguish infections from tsunamis, earthquakes and supernova explosions
14:56:47 <nakilon> record a pus and post to /r/popping for karma
14:57:03 <arseniiv> hopefully there wouldn’t be any!
14:57:53 <nakilon> in case of tsunami the tsunami definitely does not need us while in case of organic threats the things are more complicated; we need bacterias and viruses for life
14:58:19 <nakilon> that's why it's weird that some are killing us
14:58:29 <nakilon> though they help us evolute but...
14:58:47 <hanif> we need viruses for life?
14:59:02 <nakilon> I don't think bacteria knows how to evolute us on the way to make us more protected against crocodiles
14:59:07 <arseniiv> bacteria usually don’t need us too and then accidentally co-evolve like with hm how it was called, a medieval plague thing
14:59:11 <hanif> i mean i've heard of the codependence (forgot the word) with bacteria, but idk of viruses
14:59:50 <arseniiv> hanif: it was hypothesized viruses made some advances in bacteria and eucaryotes, though I don’t remember which
14:59:54 <nakilon> hanif there is a virus that is ingrown in women placenta (I'm speaking in simple words within my biological knowledge) and without it we won't be able to give a birth
15:00:02 <nakilon> half of our DNA is viruses
15:00:26 <hanif> 'half of our DNA is viruses
15:00:44 <hanif> ' => but that's because of infections, that doesn't mean we need them
15:03:03 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85558&oldid=84632 * Rphii * (+330) add pros and cons and fix indentation in hello world example
15:03:45 <hanif> hm 'The placenta goes viral: Retroviruses control gene expression in pregnancy'
15:05:06 <Corbin> hanif: Viruses are an important carrier of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer and so they are constantly participating in evolutionary improvements at all higher levels of life.
15:05:42 <Corbin> nakilon: Knowledge is an illusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem
15:06:33 <nakilon> search results are full of covid
15:06:53 <nakilon> covid literally contaminated google so I can't find what I want ..\
15:07:32 <myname> knowledge isn't an illusion
15:08:03 <myname> just because you cannot clearly define something doesn't mean it doesn't exist
15:08:17 <hanif> Corbin: i did not know that. also thanks for mentioning the pirsig's chemsitry professor parafox, interesting stuff
15:08:24 <myname> i cannot give you a definition of game that would work, yet i am fairly sure games do exist
15:11:24 <nakilon> hanif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_viral_element#Co-option_and_exaptation_by_host_species
15:12:20 <hanif> Corbin: 'I need to make a video on this' => you have a youtube channel or something? i'd be interested if you are willing to share it
15:12:25 <nakilon> people believed that there will be new, even better Quake game but it does not come
15:12:51 <Corbin> hanif: I don't have any good relevant videos on the channel right now. Making good videos has been my goal this year, but I've failed horribly at it.
15:13:24 <Corbin> But yeah, I have a whiteboard full of topics in (philosophy of) computer science which *somebody* needs to talk about, and I guess I have to do it.
15:14:39 <Corbin> myname: That's fair. To paraphrase Socrates, I would accept that some authority could define things for us, but I would wonder exactly what the basis for that authority is. (FYI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_game_theory)
15:14:58 <hanif> sounds like something i'd watch
15:15:08 <Corbin> (I have the book "On Numbers and Games" on my shelf. I read it every few years just to have my brain broken again. RIP Conway.)
15:15:37 <myname> crashcourse philosophy actually used the gettier problem for its knowledge episode
15:17:06 <Corbin> hanif: Maybe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaUmXvN6OAY (philosophy) or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfepFANkz-k (comp. sci.) would be interesting. This is the sort of stuff I want to make more of.
15:24:06 <hanif> Corbin: aaah did you use to go by simpson? i remember seeing you on #lojban
15:24:47 <Corbin> Yep, same great snark, one character shorter.
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15:29:21 <Taneb> myname: I've been meaning to learn lojban, but for practical reasons I've been focusing on Italian first
15:31:57 <myname> i am really bad at learning vocabulary, so i basically gave up on learning any new language with the intent of actually using it
15:32:07 <myname> i like to look at grammar and stuff, though
15:38:14 <nakilon> I wanted to learn the language of Elves by Tolkien -- Quenya
15:38:31 <nakilon> but it only made my nickname
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17:51:56 <b_jonas> fungot, when you revise the English Scrabble dictionary, make sure to add "rona" too, besides "covid"
17:51:56 <fungot> b_jonas: my interest is piqued...
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18:01:11 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85559&oldid=85541 * AmNow * (+17) cats: year
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18:26:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Metabox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85560 * Bangyen * (+368) Created page with "== & Operator == When inside a string of text, how should <code>&</code> be interpreted? How would you print the character <code>&</code>? I think it would make more sense if..."
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18:59:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Metabox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85561&oldid=85560 * Bangyen * (+179)
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19:01:35 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85562&oldid=85556 * Spargle * (+133) /* Links: */
19:01:56 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85563&oldid=85562 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */
19:12:19 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85564&oldid=85563 * Spargle * (+1809) /* The world's stupidest language. */
19:13:00 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85565&oldid=85564 * Spargle * (+18) /* Links: */
19:13:16 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85566&oldid=85565 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */
19:14:59 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85567&oldid=85544 * Spargle * (+17) /* Non-alphabetic */
19:18:33 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85568&oldid=85566 * Spargle * (-86) /* The world's stupidest language. */
19:18:53 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85569&oldid=85568 * Spargle * (+1) /* The world's stupidest language. */
19:19:45 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85570&oldid=85569 * Spargle * (+58) /* Interpreter: */
19:19:58 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85571&oldid=85570 * Spargle * (+4) /* Interpreters: */
19:20:44 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85572&oldid=85571 * Spargle * (+8) /* Syntax: */
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19:31:29 <esolangs> [[Common-S3C]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85573 * Spargle * (+2699) Created page with "== The world's stupidest language. == ==== The language has a bug in it that allows for comments with no prefix like #, or //. This allows for easy error fixes. (it ignores an..."
19:32:32 <esolangs> [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85574&oldid=85572 * Spargle * (+38) /* Interpreters: */
19:32:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85575&oldid=85567 * Spargle * (+17) /* Non-alphabetic */
19:33:57 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85576&oldid=85575 * Spargle * (+17) /* C */
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20:24:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: I know this is a minor complaint, but the chat logs at eh. https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-06.html don't have the favicon set, so there's no "temporary" lemon slice logo
20:25:07 <fizzie> Oh, good point. Maybe I'll just copy the favicon.
20:26:25 <b_jonas> ooh! let's make the guidelinet that the temporary lemon slice log shall be replaced when we feature the hundredth language!
20:26:56 <b_jonas> or that we start a discussion for replacing the logo after the hundredth featured language
20:31:10 <fizzie> I think I made an abstract (SVG) trilime approximation once, but nobody liked it. Okay, it wasn't particularly good either, maybe that's why.
20:32:35 <riv> isnt it a lime?
20:33:38 <b_jonas> ric: might be a lime, and might be halves instead of slices, I don't insist on particular types of citrus
20:34:05 <shachaf> I don't like limes as much as lemons.
20:35:34 <b_jonas> we can probably turn them to more like lemons by some color changes, at least for people who aren't experts in citruses
20:37:13 <b_jonas> we can probably even turn them to red oranges
20:43:11 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85577&oldid=85497 * Kemuri * (-14) /* External links */
20:44:21 <esolangs> [[MoveIt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85578 * AmNow * (+1120) Created page with "MoveIt is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:AmNow]], MoveIt moves bytes around, hence the name. == Commands == Command Move Byte: To First..."
20:44:57 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85579&oldid=85536 * AmNow * (-11) added lang
20:46:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85580&oldid=85576 * AmNow * (+13) /* M */ added lang
20:47:47 <esolangs> [[MoveIt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85581&oldid=85578 * AmNow * (+3) formatting changes
21:49:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Metabox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85582&oldid=85561 * Batata * (+988)
21:49:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Metabox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85583&oldid=85582 * Batata * (+2)
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