←2023-01 2023-02 2023-03→ ↑2023 ↑all
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00:54:54 <Sgeo> Is it possible to design an esolang such that only a quine-like program can implement it? I've made an esolang where that was the easiest implementation, but I believe some Common Lisps could do it without a quine
00:56:38 <int-e> that seems hard to define
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01:01:24 <int-e> I imagine that languages with an eval function or equivalent functionality would automatically qualify as "quine-like".
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01:45:40 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106581&oldid=106568 * LyricLy * (+257) Add debug functions
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04:21:48 <esolangs> [[Subjective-C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106582&oldid=106402 * Proxxa * (+2751) Consolidate style; rearrange features; add methods and purity keywords sections
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12:22:52 <esolangs> [[Fash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106583&oldid=105662 * TJC games * (-29) give ./args a purpose in .fashp files
12:25:56 <esolangs> [[Gdelang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106584&oldid=105822 * TJC games * (+66) augh
12:27:45 <esolangs> [[Geolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106585&oldid=105834 * TJC games * (+45)
12:27:53 <esolangs> [[Geolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106586&oldid=106585 * TJC games * (+1) /* Truth machine */
12:31:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106587&oldid=106578 * TJC games * (+205) why did it take so long?
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12:34:11 <Nif> Helo
12:34:26 <Nif> 20th thats funny
12:34:28 <Nif> lol
12:36:15 <Nif> Ok bye
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12:53:34 <esolangs> [[User:KapitanGamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106588&oldid=106577 * KapitanGamer * (+55)
12:54:20 <esolangs> [[User:KapitanGamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106589&oldid=106588 * KapitanGamer * (+4)
13:04:55 <esolangs> [[Category:Tree-based]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106590 * KapitanGamer * (+194) Created page with "Programming languages where memory is a [[Tree]], the program is a [[Tree]], or a [[Tree]], a graph tree, or some other form of this data structure is an important element of the language."
13:05:59 <esolangs> [[Category:Non-interactive IO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106591 * KapitanGamer * (+29) Redirected page to [[Category:No IO]]
14:35:04 <esolangs> [[Category:Non-interactive IO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106592&oldid=106591 * SpaceByte * (+29) Removed redirect to [[Category:No IO]]
14:43:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106593&oldid=106335 * SpaceByte * (+204)
14:43:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106594&oldid=106593 * SpaceByte * (+91) forgor sig
14:44:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106595&oldid=106594 * SpaceByte * (-4)
14:45:59 <esolangs> [[Category:Non-interactive IO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106596&oldid=106592 * SpaceByte * (+114)
14:58:52 <esolangs> [[PRINT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106597&oldid=106572 * SpaceByte * (+212) examples
15:04:10 <esolangs> [[PRINT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106598&oldid=106597 * SpaceByte * (+124)
15:14:37 <esolangs> [[Brainless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106599&oldid=106332 * SpaceByte * (+89)
15:17:57 <esolangs> [[PRINT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106600&oldid=106598 * SpaceByte * (+239)
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15:27:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Northdot9 * New user account
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15:51:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106601&oldid=106587 * Northdot9 * (+132)
15:51:15 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106602&oldid=105041 * Northdot9 * (+101) /* See also */
15:52:41 <esolangs> [[User:Northdot9]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106603 * Northdot9 * (+127) Created page with "Hi there. I'm esoteric and I get languages inflicted upon me professionally; So it was a natural choice to get an account here."
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16:25:15 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106604&oldid=106112 * Orisphera * (+472) /* Based on dimensions */
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17:09:02 <river> hjello
17:35:07 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106605&oldid=106604 * Orisphera * (+684) /* Based on dimensions */
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17:41:30 <wib_jonas> SGeo: yes, https://esolangs.org/wiki/HI9%2B
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17:41:39 <wib_jonas> but I think that's about the only way
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18:02:10 <Sgeo> I think for a compiled HI9+ program, I should print the CPU it's running on. As in, the actual semiconductor pattern.
18:02:50 <Sgeo> Cheap way to make new CPUs
18:03:41 <wib_jonas> that will be hard, most cpus have too much legal protection for that
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18:59:10 <esolangs> [[RAND]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106606&oldid=19152 * KapitanGamer * (+54)
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21:46:18 <b_jonas> `ftoc 82
21:46:20 <HackEso> 82.00°F = 27.78°C
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02:52:54 <esolangs> [[Waduzitdo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106607&oldid=91572 * Star651 * (+48) even the top Google search result for Waduzitdo, and the way most of us Waduzitdo programmers run code, wasn't listed until now
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07:11:32 <zzo38> How common is it to win at Magic: the Gathering by forcing your opponent to make a copy of Phage the Untouchable?
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09:33:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know, but in 3 card blind at least two of us tried Phage + Evil Presents (the holiday card)
09:33:27 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106608&oldid=102356 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-374)
09:57:03 <esolangs> [[User:Bil-joodusstudios]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106609&oldid=106336 * Bil-joodusstudios * (+134) /* Languages I'm working on */
09:58:10 <b_jonas> hehe, did you notice that https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9757 has the flavor text updated in Gatherer compared to the card because the one on the card is obsolete, but now the text in Gatherer seems to be obsolete too
09:59:02 <b_jonas> so that card suffered a fate worse than Urza's Hot Tub
10:00:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Bil-joodusstudios * uploaded "[[File:Grpehelloworldtriangle.png]]"
10:02:27 <esolangs> [[GRPE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106611&oldid=106301 * Bil-joodusstudios * (+560) /* Examples */ added hello world triangle
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13:29:13 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106612&oldid=106581 * LyricLy * (+27) Update pop and lift's group behaviour
14:44:42 <esolangs> [[PRINT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106613&oldid=106600 * SpaceByte * (+7496)
14:52:00 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106614 * SpaceByte * (+1441) interp
14:52:40 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106615&oldid=106614 * SpaceByte * (+20830)
14:53:51 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106616&oldid=106615 * SpaceByte * (+32203)
14:54:24 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106617&oldid=106616 * SpaceByte * (+35996)
14:54:47 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106618&oldid=106617 * SpaceByte * (+41642)
14:55:11 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106619&oldid=106618 * SpaceByte * (+34861)
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14:57:18 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106620&oldid=106619 * SpaceByte * (+22500)
15:01:22 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106621&oldid=106620 * SpaceByte * (+203)
15:01:36 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106622&oldid=106621 * SpaceByte * (+0)
15:02:20 <esolangs> [[PRINT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106623&oldid=106613 * SpaceByte * (+65)
15:03:19 <esolangs> [[User:SpaceByte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106624&oldid=106500 * SpaceByte * (+32)
15:03:28 <esolangs> [[User:SpaceByte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106625&oldid=106624 * SpaceByte * (+0)
15:06:01 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106626&oldid=106622 * SpaceByte * (+2)
15:07:17 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106627&oldid=106626 * SpaceByte * (+0)
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16:11:29 <esolangs> [[Print (disambiguation)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106628 * SpaceByte * (+124) Created page with "There are 2 Esolangs at the moment with the name "print", with varying capitalization. * [[Print]] * [[pRINT]] {{disambig}}"
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17:29:43 <esolangs> [[Japt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106629&oldid=46577 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Stub, category
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19:05:08 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106630&oldid=106612 * LyricLy * (+75) Add yank
19:38:33 <zzo38> I did not know that they changed the flavor text of one card, but now I know.
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20:20:57 <b_jonas> I suspect they changed the flavor text of more than one card
20:22:26 <b_jonas> though I wonder why they even made that flavor text instead of parenthisized reminder text. it's text that's there to help you with the rules. it should be a reminder text.
20:27:56 <b_jonas> I wonder if I should learn some R (the numerics programming language)
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22:51:24 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106631&oldid=106627 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) Add category
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01:47:04 <int-e> hmm, I have a use for INTERCAL's select operator if I can implement it efficiently... how does one go about that again :)
01:49:54 <int-e> Ah actually I have time to precompute stuff based on the selection bit mask. So I can do fancy bit permutation stuff.
01:50:27 <fizzie> https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/pext if you don't mind hardware-specific solutions.
01:52:23 <fizzie> I assume Intel added PEXT and PDEP specifically to help INTERCAL implementors implement select and mingle, respectively.
01:53:08 <int-e> What's this, bmi2... oh I have that.
01:53:25 <int-e> (Yeah I know, "bit manipulation instructions")
01:54:33 <int-e> Anyway, thanks! I vaguely remembered that there was *some* hardware support for this but I wouldn't have found it myself.
02:19:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Piechicken20 * New user account
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02:21:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106632&oldid=106601 * Piechicken20 * (+116) /* Introductions */
02:42:13 <int-e> Oh well, another Ponder This! that could be really challenging if the numbers were a bit bigger. But on the plus side, the first thing I tried was actually too slow :)
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03:30:16 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106633&oldid=106554 * McChuck * (+11) /* Listack: A stackless, stack based concatenative language */
03:30:49 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106634&oldid=106633 * McChuck * (+1) /* Listack: A symmetric, stackless, stack-based concatenative language */
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12:51:59 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106635&oldid=106630 * LyricLy * (-27) Undo lift forming a group
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14:52:52 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106636&oldid=106635 * LyricLy * (+288) Document functions
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16:28:00 <esolangs> [[User:Piechicken20]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106637 * Piechicken20 * (+1985) This, Gnalose, is a esolang I made in 21 minutes
16:29:17 <esolangs> [[User:Piechicken20]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106638&oldid=106637 * Piechicken20 * (+6)
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23:20:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nathi1235 * New user account
23:23:24 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106639&oldid=106636 * LyricLy * (-2) one -> a
23:31:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106640&oldid=106632 * Nathi1235 * (+197) /* Introductions */
23:33:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106641&oldid=106536 * Nathi1235 * (+16)
23:36:43 <esolangs> [[TimeWaste]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106642 * Nathi1235 * (+91) Created page with "TimeWaste is an esolang that really wastes your time. further information is coming soon..."
01:19:34 <b_jonas> `learn password The password of the month is Bear this torch against the cold of the night.
01:19:37 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': password The password of the month is Bear this torch against the cold of the night.
01:36:42 <esolangs> [[TimeWaste]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106643&oldid=106642 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub, category
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08:48:02 <int-e> Hmm is running `kissat` also a kitten game?
08:51:37 <int-e> (I never got past year 71)
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09:53:28 <Vorpal> It has probably been a decade or so since I was active here. I however recently did a thing relevant to esolangs, thought I should mention it here in case anyone is interested: https://github.com/VorpalBlade/brainoxide
09:53:44 <Vorpal> optimising brainfuck compiler, really though it was just an excuse to learn rust
09:54:11 <Vorpal> Compiles to C or interprets directly. Seems to work on all the programs I tested it on.
09:55:37 <Vorpal> I most likely won't do anything else with it (except maybe a bug fix if anyone finds anything), but move on to some completely different, and non-esolang related.
09:56:32 <Vorpal> Though I am curious as to what the state-of-the-art compiler for Brainfuck is these days. I know for sure that I could do a lot better than what I did above, by building more of a proper flow graph, doing loop induction etc
09:57:15 <Vorpal> maybe converting the (balanced) code blocks to SSA form. Etc
10:12:12 <int-e> There are too many implementations. A survey would be nice, but would also be a lot of work.
10:13:13 <Vorpal> Agreed, by the way has anything interesting happened in Befunge in recent years?
10:13:14 <int-e> I mean just look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_implementations ...and I'd bet that there's quite a few more. Heck I don't even know whether https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Notable_implementations is a subset of that list.
10:13:23 <Vorpal> Been a long while since I wrote cfunge
10:13:41 <int-e> fungot: maybe you can answer that?
10:13:42 <fungot> int-e: you're really confused about mathematics and exactness vs. domains??? fnord fnord juttuja jotka uskoo fnord! :p)
10:13:51 <Vorpal> oh! Is fungot still running on cfunge?
10:13:52 <fungot> Vorpal: definitely need parens around arguments is an inconsistency to me,
10:13:56 <int-e> (just kidding, but to my mind fungot is peak befunge)
10:13:57 <fungot> int-e: lagging like shit) and no white skies. have you gotten to the part where he's searching online for information while on the command line
10:14:15 <int-e> Vorpal: pretty sure it does
10:14:25 <int-e> or is, to match the question
10:14:43 <Vorpal> Cool. Someone should write a rustfunge or something. Too much work for me personally.
10:15:16 <int-e> Yeah, Befunge is a bit enterprisey... so many extensions.
10:15:51 <Vorpal> hehe
10:16:02 <Vorpal> also good luck writing something like fungot in bf
10:16:02 <fungot> Vorpal: shutting up.)
10:16:30 <Vorpal> I'm probably going to go write a low level (and possibly async) daemon next. I want to control the keyboard backlight on my laptop to have a timeout when I'm not typing on it. I have a older laptop with that feature in firmware, and it is neat.
10:16:32 <int-e> we have a guy with a (subset of) C to bf compiler
10:16:41 <Vorpal> oh that is cool
10:17:39 <Vorpal> hm, is there any esolang with *proper* (non-synchronous) threads? I made an extension in efunge that added that (though the shared funge-space was still atomicly accessed)
10:17:57 <Vorpal> every esolang with threads I can think of have them running in lock step
10:18:40 <int-e> What was the name... grep says kspalaiologos. I don't know when they were last around.
10:19:15 <Vorpal> int-e: so I could use brainoxide to compile a bf program to C, then compile that back to brainfuck.
10:19:34 <Vorpal> or the other way around
10:19:41 <int-e> that... sounds marvellous. not.
10:20:33 <int-e> Anyway, this channel has slowed down a lot.
10:20:42 <Vorpal> still, I would be interested in an esolang with proper threads. That sounds like an interesting challenge to implement
10:21:04 <Vorpal> People get older, less time. Young people don't use irc any more.
10:21:06 <int-e> uh-oh... there's threaded intercal
10:21:17 <Vorpal> int-e: I thought it ran the threads in lock step too?
10:21:26 <Vorpal> also I do *not* want to try to implement intercal. No way.
10:21:45 <int-e> I thought it was specified with actual parallelism
10:22:00 <Vorpal> oh? Maybe it is just C-INTERCAL that run them in lock step then?
10:22:12 <int-e> I do not know what the c-intercal implementation does.
10:23:30 <int-e> I just don't know what other multithreaded languages we have :)
10:24:47 <Vorpal> as I said, I did add an experimental extension to efunge (erlang funge) that added free running threads. It was a separate branch iirc. Because I think the performance was quite bad (even on non-threaded stuff). Since every funge-space access needed to be done in thread safe ways
10:25:49 <Vorpal> I seem to have lot most of the docs for it...
10:25:51 <Vorpal> https://github.com/VorpalBlade/efunge/blob/feature/supervisor-tree/src/fingerprints/ATHR.spec
10:26:11 <Vorpal> It abstracted locks as borrowing books from a library iirc
10:26:57 <int-e> well, at least nobody will starve
10:27:24 <Vorpal> uh?
10:27:26 <int-e> I'm scared to ask what the memory model for this is
10:27:41 <int-e> Vorpal: starvation only happens if you pick up forks
10:27:48 <int-e> ;)
10:27:50 <Vorpal> ah, lol
10:28:01 <Vorpal> so... (this has been over a decade... details fuzzy)
10:28:30 <int-e> (or rather, fail to pick up forks)
10:28:31 <Vorpal> memory model was that reads/writes to funge space were atomic and sequential order. I think
10:28:55 <Vorpal> but, read+write would not be atomic unless every thread used the features from the fingerprint for accessing that address
10:29:43 <int-e> good old sequential memory
10:30:19 <Vorpal> this was basically implemented by having an ETS shared table between the erlang threads. Then all the "atomic" operations were done by RPC calls to a server thread.
10:30:28 <Vorpal> https://github.com/VorpalBlade/efunge/blob/feature/supervisor-tree/src/efunge_fungespace.erl seems to have the logic for that
10:31:27 <Vorpal> the server implementation would be at handle_call() in that file
10:32:02 <Vorpal> erlang uses message passing as it's primary form of communication between threads. So everything had to be mapped on top of that
10:32:28 <Vorpal> except, well stuff like ETS tables, which is specifically a shared in-memory key-value database
10:33:20 <int-e> I barely know enough to read that
10:33:40 <Vorpal> int-e: it reads like prolog. All pattern matching and multiple-dispatch
10:34:03 <int-e> Oh that's totally fine... it's similar to pattern matching in Haskell.
10:34:21 <int-e> I realize that the semantics are a bit different.
10:34:27 <Vorpal> I'm going to say that pattern matching in erlang is way more powerful than haskell
10:34:40 <Vorpal> it does not use prolog semantics (it doesn't use unification)
10:35:47 <Vorpal> I think the code itself is not too bad, but knowing the standard library abstractions and patterns is probably the sticking point I would guess
10:35:54 <Vorpal> like "what the heck is a gen_server"
10:36:35 <Vorpal> (basically it is a pattern making it easy to implement a server-like thing in erlang with RPC over message passing, all the boring boilerplate bits are handled over in the standard library)
10:38:24 <Vorpal> When you can't use that) (e.g. for the main threads running funge code), you end up having to do a lot of extra yourself: https://github.com/VorpalBlade/efunge/blob/feature/supervisor-tree/src/efunge_thread.erl
10:38:38 <Vorpal> (see loop/5)
10:39:10 <int-e> Eh, https://www.erlang.org/doc/man/gen_server.html#Module:handle_call-3 is readable.
10:39:33 <Vorpal> yeah I can read it
10:39:44 <Vorpal> even though it has been a decade or so since i wrote erlang code
10:40:09 <int-e> I've never written erlang code? Maybe a hello world at some point.
10:41:14 <Vorpal> right. I found that jumping between programming languages is actually not difficult, once you know a couple.
10:41:15 <int-e> But I did encounter CCS and CSP in my CS studies.
10:41:22 <int-e> and the pi calculus too.
10:41:33 <Vorpal> Probably a bit more work between imperative and functional, but eh
10:41:44 <int-e> So the execution model of Erlang is not completely alien.
10:42:09 <int-e> I'm sure I could get into it if needed.
10:42:10 <Vorpal> remind me, which one was which of CCS and CSP?
10:42:16 <Vorpal> continuation something passing?
10:42:49 <int-e> calculus of communicating systems and communicating sequential processes
10:43:02 <int-e> CPS is continuation passing style, that's different.
10:43:10 <Vorpal> oh, I was completely off
10:43:13 <Vorpal> right
10:43:20 <Vorpal> "actor model" might be relevant too
10:43:33 <int-e> yeah it is
10:43:50 <Vorpal> it is just lots of threads sending messages between each other. Way easier than shared memory actually
10:44:04 <Vorpal> (and sometimes you wait for a reply)
10:44:12 <int-e> the actor model is far less formal
10:44:19 <Vorpal> ah
10:44:27 <Vorpal> yeah I never studied CCS or CSP
10:44:32 <int-e> CCS and CSP have actual syntax and semantics
10:45:01 <int-e> And, again, the pi calculus. I keep leaving that out because it's so much to type.
10:45:24 <Vorpal> I'm self taught on erlang. I have come to realise I'm more of an engineer than a formal mathematician. I'd rather read some clear code than a formal mathematical model any day
10:45:31 <int-e> There's a bunch of others too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_of_communicating_systems#Related_calculi,_models,_and_languages
10:47:02 <Vorpal> Hm I wonder if you can make an esolang out of this. E.g you only have message passing
10:47:21 <Vorpal> Maybe message passing and conditionals, but no actual variables
10:47:27 <Vorpal> I wonder if that would be TC
10:48:03 <Vorpal> you could have a "system provided" actor for doing IO
10:48:37 <int-e> that's kind of what these calculi are
10:48:43 <Vorpal> Ah
10:48:57 <Vorpal> are the calculi TC though?
10:49:51 <int-e> This one definitely is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi-calculus#Turing_completeness
10:50:35 <Vorpal> ah
10:51:26 <Vorpal> well then, nothing interesting to invent there
10:52:54 <int-e> I realize that I never went into depth with these calculi. I can't tell you whether CCS or CSP are TC.
10:53:03 <Vorpal> I was thinking to encode the infinite state into unbounded message queues, rather than by having processes being able to replicate themselves.
10:54:26 <int-e> Well, communication is synchronous here; there are no queues.
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10:54:33 <Vorpal> ah
10:55:19 <int-e> But you can simulate queues by spawning a dedicated thread for each message that sends the message and then passes a token to the next message thread.
10:55:21 <Vorpal> I was thinking async, proper multi-threaded: Then you could just have a infinite "delay line" style memory basically having an echo process that echos things back to you. If you can do pattern matching on your incoming messages you can choose when to read from that process
10:56:15 <Vorpal> sounds similar to what I suggested?
10:56:23 <int-e> a bit
10:58:02 <int-e> If you have a queue you can do cyclic tag system stuff. (e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag)
10:58:59 <Vorpal> oh, cool. Yeah so what I was thinking of would *likely* be TC then.
10:59:20 <int-e> I wouldn't be surprised if (simulated) queues actually feature in TC-ness proofs for the pi-calculus. It sounds like a natural building block.
10:59:31 <int-e> Though I guess you can also, alternatively, simulate counters.
11:00:01 <int-e> which might be a bit simpler :)
11:01:06 <Vorpal> I kind of want to come up with some interesting multi-threaded turing tarpit that uses shared memory now
11:01:25 <Vorpal> I don't see how it make it interesting without also being TC with just a single thread though
11:02:09 <Vorpal> maybe only some threads can do some operations? E.g. thread 1 can not do additions, but thread 2 cannot do loops? Or something like that
11:03:05 <Vorpal> and they can only communicate via some rather simple and annoying atomic operation(s) (e.g. something simpler than CAS)
11:04:12 <Vorpal> but all the interesting operations that they can do are non-atomic. So you have to come up with a way to ask the other thread to do things via this horrible atomic communication
11:05:01 <Vorpal> int-e: does that sound plausible to you?
11:06:03 <int-e> Vorpal: if you have asynchronous communication you can use a message queue to send messages to yourself.
11:06:32 <int-e> Which really should be enough for a single thread to work out.
11:06:36 <Vorpal> int-e: you would only have a pre-declared set of atomic variables (finite, not growable at runtime)
11:07:08 <Vorpal> and they would be like atomic bytes or maybe even atomic bits
11:07:17 <int-e> I guess there's the question on how you do conditionals.
11:08:22 <int-e> So you may be right... in those calculi, a single thread cannot do conditional computations.
11:08:28 <Vorpal> well, only thread 1 can do conditionals. But thread 1 can't do arithmetics. So you need to come up with a way to ask thread 2 to do arithmetics for you, even though thread 2 can't do conditionals.
11:08:33 <Vorpal> not sure if that would work out
11:09:27 <Vorpal> I'm feeling like this is heading in the direction of malbolge though... A not particularly interesting language that is just difficult to do things in practically
11:09:43 <int-e> well, encode values as sequences of bits and don't bother thread 2 at all?
11:10:15 <Vorpal> hm, yeah getting something interesting out of this *would* be rather difficult
11:10:19 <int-e> (a target for compilers)
11:10:24 <int-e> (malbolge, that is)\
11:10:41 <Vorpal> right
11:12:01 <int-e> The amazing thing about Malbolge is that people managed to tame it. The first proper 99 bottles of beers program was amazing. After that was achieved... it's just more of the same.
11:12:04 <Vorpal> what if all you have is conditionals and set-if-written-by other thread?
11:12:14 <Vorpal> E.g. you can't write to a value again until the other thread has done so
11:12:51 <Vorpal> that basically forces you to use two threads
11:12:58 <int-e> not sure what you mean by "write to value"... my current mental model only has a finite set of atoms and unbounded queues.
11:13:09 <Vorpal> int-e: this is a shared memory tarpit
11:13:13 <Vorpal> not message passing
11:13:14 <Vorpal> at all
11:13:19 <Vorpal> [12:01] <Vorpal> I kind of want to come up with some interesting multi-threaded turing tarpit that uses shared memory now
11:13:28 <int-e> oh I missed the change in context then
11:13:33 <Vorpal> ah
11:14:18 <int-e> (that only happens to me all the time)
11:14:26 <Vorpal> int-e: now, re-evaluating it in that context. How would one make a horrible but shared shared-memory turing tarpit
11:14:36 <Vorpal> horrible but interesting*
11:15:26 <int-e> . o O ( add time travel where a value can be read before it's written )
11:15:26 <Vorpal> I'm thinking compare-and-set-if-written-by-other-thread where it just won't do anything unless the other thread was the last writer
11:15:36 <Vorpal> forcing you to ping-pong between threads
11:16:13 <int-e> right but the danger is that one thread will just be an unglorified echo server
11:16:13 <Vorpal> int-e: that sounds difficult to implement. There was that whole time travel extension to funge (that I never implemented) that would roll back and re-execute state. CBBI had support iirc
11:16:23 <Vorpal> hm true
11:17:12 <int-e> it's pretty hard to make a language interesting by design
11:17:36 <int-e> the usual way seems to make a minimal language of sorts and even that isn't foolproof.
11:18:16 <Vorpal> by the way, how the heck does my crate (rust term for package) for the BF compiler already have 17 downloads? I published it yesterday. https://crates.io/crates/brainoxide Maybe some are like automated virus scanners or something? And the automatic documentation generation is probably one of those. But 17?
11:18:47 <Vorpal> (it's at the bottom of the page)
11:18:56 <int-e> crawlers
11:19:12 <Vorpal> that download the *package* too? Not just view the page.
11:19:43 <int-e> There's also "New Crates" on https://crates.io/ so somebody may have seen it there.
11:19:49 <Vorpal> true
11:19:58 <Vorpal> but who would care about a bf compiler?
11:20:07 <Vorpal> as you said, there are way too many of them
11:20:07 <int-e> somebody who's bored
11:20:34 <Vorpal> I didn't even include any example programs (because I didn't write them, so no clue about licenses in general)
11:20:55 <int-e> The "Downloads over the last 90 days" graph is silly.
11:21:11 <Vorpal> you mean the smoothing thing it does? Yes it is rather silly
11:21:27 <int-e> also the fact that it starts at 0
11:21:52 <Vorpal> I mean, it makes sense for older popular crates: https://crates.io/crates/syn
11:22:04 <int-e> it would probably be interesting to see timestamps for the downloads
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11:22:39 <int-e> I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the first 10 downloads were all within a minute of the crate being published.
11:22:40 <Vorpal> it is interesting that you can see dips during weekends for popular crates
11:23:11 <Vorpal> and a big christmas dip
11:23:13 <int-e> The #brainfuck tag is quite popular too :P
11:23:32 <int-e> (35 results!)
11:23:36 <Vorpal> yes I noticed there were a lot
11:24:03 <Vorpal> brainoxide was not my first name choice lets say
11:24:11 <Vorpal> I wonder if there is a macro one that runs bf during compile time
11:24:17 <Vorpal> you could absolutely do that in rust
11:25:01 <Vorpal> let mystring = bf!(+++[>++++<-] other code to do bf here );
11:25:01 <int-e> "An optimizing brainfuck interpreter with helpful errors."
11:25:15 <Vorpal> um, like "unbalanced loops?"
11:25:18 <Vorpal> "?*
11:25:31 <int-e> Yeah, exactly. Kind of weird for a language where the only error you can make is mismatched brackets.
11:25:53 <Vorpal> like I tell the user if there are too many [ or ] (I don't tell them where that is in the code though. so not helpful I guess)
11:25:53 <int-e> But I haven't looked closely.
11:26:04 <Vorpal> and "tape pointer went negative"
11:26:07 <Vorpal> I do that too
11:26:08 <int-e> it's this one: https://crates.io/crates/brainfrick
11:27:22 <Vorpal> none of the #brainfuck tagged ones mention macro in their title at least
11:27:31 <Vorpal> so there might be an unexploited niche
11:27:34 <int-e> Anyway, none of these synopsises sound like they provide a macro for compile time use.
11:27:42 <Vorpal> exactly
11:27:51 <Vorpal> not that I'm particularly keen on learning proc macros next
11:28:13 <Vorpal> and I doubt you can do it in macro_rules declarative macros due to recursion limits
11:29:24 <Vorpal> https://sdleffler.github.io/RustTypeSystemTuringComplete/ (though that is TC in type system, not in macros themselves)
11:29:44 <int-e> https://github.com/Purpzie/brainfrick/blob/main/src/error.rs#L10-L16 ...yeah missing brackets (with offset, presumably either the offset of an extra ] or the end of the input) and IO errors.
11:30:25 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106644&oldid=106605 * Orisphera * (+211) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */
11:32:49 <Vorpal> int-e: so (except for telling you the offset) stuff my implementation has too
11:33:15 <Vorpal> and IO errors are indeed reported (except for EOF on input, which has defined semantics in bf)
11:39:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just to confirm, yes, it's still running on cfunge.
11:39:52 <Vorpal> fizzie: oh hi! Was just about to leave and take a nice walk in the sun. Before that though. How have you been this past decade or so?
11:40:31 <Vorpal> still doing panorams and working at google (in UK?)
11:40:33 <Vorpal> ?
11:42:11 <fizzie> I don't think I've done many panoramas lately, actually. But still with Google UK, yeah (given recent layoff news, let's see how long). Haven't done really anything esolang-related in ages, beyond keeping the infra (wiki, HackEso, etc.) running.
11:43:01 <Vorpal> ah
11:43:14 <Vorpal> I hear it is a mess in UK these days though?
11:43:14 <fizzie> Oh, I guess I've been doing Advent of Code in Burlesque, that's something.
11:44:03 <Vorpal> oh cool
11:44:32 <Vorpal> looks very golfy
11:45:21 <fizzie> Yeah, though not quite as golfy as something like GolfScript. It was made by a former #esoteric regular.
11:45:56 <Vorpal> anyway, I'm going out into the sun. Have a nice day.
11:46:10 <fizzie> Cheers, as the say here.
11:46:24 <fizzie> s/the/they/
11:50:50 <fizzie> fungot: Have you ever thought about starting to post on the fediverse?
11:50:50 <fungot> fizzie: but the heuristics required to make that assessment?) scheme code markup
11:51:14 <fizzie> (It has a defunct Twitter account, which I every now and then think about reviving, but with Elon's latest API news that's not going to be an option.)
12:03:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:Grocery List]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106645&oldid=16619 * Orisphera * (+359) /* Popping the result (a) */ new section
12:15:40 <Vorpal> fizzie: I have not followed the twitter debacle in recent weeks. What is this API news?
12:17:42 <Vorpal> huh I seem to be having some internet slowness.
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12:18:56 <Vorpal> packet loss
12:20:38 <fizzie> "Starting February 9, we will no longer support free access to the Twitter API, both v2 and v1.1. A paid basic tier will be available instead"
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12:22:00 <fizzie> So unless fungot becomes profitable somehow (that'd be the day), it's not going to be tweeting.
12:22:00 <fungot> fizzie: i want to
12:22:16 <fizzie> fungot: Look, make your own money, then you can use it any way you like.
12:22:17 <fungot> fizzie: you use erc, there's also `s' ( for example, can lead to corner-to-corner or completeness, and corner-to-corner can lead only to completeness.... some other direction
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13:06:42 <Vorpal> how am I still connected to irc? I have 60% packet loss, and varying response times of 0.1 - 20 *seconds*.
13:07:54 <Vorpal> fizzie: hm does fungot not reply to CTCP PING?
13:07:54 <fungot> Vorpal: burn in hell
13:08:03 <Vorpal> fungot: whoa! calm down there
13:08:04 <fungot> Vorpal: i got version 360, i'm not sure what would be the
13:12:48 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't think it has any CTCP replies.
13:14:21 <Vorpal> fizzie: what model is it using atm?
13:14:25 <Vorpal> I forgot how to check
13:14:44 <fizzie> ^style
13:14:44 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
13:14:56 <Vorpal> ah
13:15:37 <Vorpal> also something weird is going on with my speakers. Seem to be glitchy, Only when I put pressure on the connector do I get sound on the left side.
13:15:53 <Vorpal> I guess it is time to dig out the soldering iron. Probably a cracked solder joint
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13:50:51 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106646&oldid=104205 * B jonas * (+74) +optimizing compiler by Vorpal
14:03:58 <b_jonas> "<int-e> we have a guy with a (subset of) C to bf compiler" => don't we have like two or three? one of whom programmed machines in a casino with it and only gave the bf code or some silly story like that?
14:05:29 <b_jonas> "It abstracted locks as borrowing books from a library iirc" => is that like the perl maintainer pumpkin?
14:06:13 <b_jonas> "starvation only happens if you pick up forks" => there are other ways to starve, but sure
14:06:36 <b_jonas> library books work because the library has a fixed time limit after which you have to return the books even if you haven't been able to used them
14:11:39 <Vorpal> [15:05] <b_jonas> "It abstracted locks as borrowing books from a library iirc" => is that like the perl maintainer pumpkin? <--- don't know perl, no idea
14:12:18 <Vorpal> huh, I could not see any cracks, but resoldered anyway. Seems to have fixed the issue
14:13:13 <Vorpal> b_jonas: I don't remember how the books/library was supposed to work, but that part of the code was never implemented. And I can't find the spec
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14:20:26 <esolangs> [[User:Vorpal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106647&oldid=22878 * Vorpal * (+146) Update my user page. It was super outdated.
14:27:40 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I want to specify a small part of an optional multithreading extension for Consumer society. I don't want to specify or implement creating threads or specify what kind of threads they are, so this isn't really an answer. What I do want is specify an optional feature that lets you easily implement functions like the ones in the arithmetic library (you know, adding or multiplying or comparing
14:27:46 <b_jonas> integers) as threadsafe, because the most obvious implementation isn't threadsafe. This counts as an optional extension because the core language is tiny, but it's a really small one, trivial to implement in a single-threaded implementation, and almost certainly very easy to implement in any multithreading implementation, but it needs support from the multithreading extension, you can't just implement
14:27:52 <b_jonas> it portably without knowing how the threading works, which is why I want to specify it.
14:28:28 <b_jonas> (Technically you can also implement thread-safe arithmetic functions without this extension, but it would be more complicated and likely have worse performance.)
14:31:20 <Vorpal> not familiar with this language
14:32:10 <Vorpal> b_jonas: I can't find "Consumer society" on esolangs. Any link to it?
14:34:37 <b_jonas> "calculus of communicating systems and communicating sequential processes' => isn't CSP constraint satisfaction problem?
14:35:20 <Vorpal> Hm, what about an esolang where things are found at addresses? As in "load variable from Main Street 142 using a pickup truck". And you have to care about distance to the CPU address, and avoid traffic congestion? Multi threading could be multiple CPU building at different addresses that load and store things independently
14:35:29 <Vorpal> b_jonas: TLAs are overloaded
14:36:59 <Vorpal> oh and atomic operations could be done by things like "send package to Side Street 12, if already full, leave package with neighbour to the left"
14:37:13 <Vorpal> this avoids overwriting existing memory
14:37:52 <Vorpal> I imagine the syntax would be this sort of very high level English looking thing. Probably with optional words allowed to make it sound more natural
14:38:29 <b_jonas> "<Vorpal> I kind of want to come up with some interesting multi-threaded turing tarpit that uses shared memory now" => yeah, maybe Consumer society will help in that, as in you can invent a suitable threading model over it
14:38:33 <Vorpal> You would basically need a map to be able to program this
14:38:49 <Vorpal> b_jonas: again as I said, I could not find that. Could you provide a link to it?
14:39:00 <Vorpal> or are you just reading scrollback and ignoring new messages?
14:39:35 <Vorpal> anyway I will be leaving shortly, so it would perhaps be better for you to jump ahead and answer recent questions first instead
14:42:41 <int-e> 1630811154 544040 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Consumer Society doesn't have a wiki page because I haven't published its definition yet and I didn't want to create a completely useless stub
14:42:54 <Vorpal> oh I didn't see that
14:43:10 <int-e> eh that's a message from 2021-09-05
14:43:11 <int-e> ;)
14:43:20 <Vorpal> int-e: oh well, duh
14:43:22 <int-e> But I suspect it's still up-to-date
14:44:10 <Vorpal> Anyway. I like the idea of an esolang based on driving instructions for package delivery/pickup. Where you have to factor in the time it takes to move between addresses. And traffic congestion matters.
14:44:25 <Vorpal> maybe ditch the CPU buildings, and do all computations in the driving instructions
14:45:29 <Vorpal> int-e: another idea for concurrency in esolangs: Look at VHDL/Verilog. Where everything is concurrent, and sequential is kind of hard
14:45:37 <Vorpal> maybe someone could steal that for an esolang
14:46:01 <Vorpal> it is all about electrical signals and states
14:47:48 <Vorpal> for the package delivery esolang I imagine the implementation will basically run a simulation at some granularity t (e.g. 10 seconds at a time). So it will be abstracted over. Not an actual traffic simulation.
14:48:21 <Vorpal> Now I wonder if you can do computation in actual multi-agent traffic simulations based on the interaction between "things" (car, people, etc) in the simulation.
14:48:47 <Vorpal> I mean, fizzie did and/or gates etc in OpenTTD iirc. So why not
14:48:54 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure what actual threading model a multi-threading Consumer society should have. Maybe there's more than one good one, maybe there's none. I just wanted to know that if I specify the arithmetic library I don't write myself into a corner where you have to throw the whole thing out for multithreading.
14:49:30 <Vorpal> b_jonas: it would be very helpful to know what the heck Consumer society actually *was* to be able to follow this
14:49:38 <Vorpal> anyway, leaving now. See you.
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14:51:57 <b_jonas> "<int-e> Though I guess you can also, alternatively, simulate counters." => would that involve n threads when the value of the counter is n?
15:05:21 <b_jonas> "Kind of weird for a language where the only error you can make is mismatched brackets." => isn't running off the left of the tape <+ an error, though supported as an extension in some impls?
15:05:58 <b_jonas> an right, Vorpal says that a few lines later
15:12:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: re fungot and twitter, if fungot was already a member of the EU or UK parliament then you could just rely on other people tweeting what interesting things he said in the parliament. but if he's not already a member then he won't be able to campaign without twitter, so that's hard to solve.
15:12:42 <fungot> b_jonas: oh. hm. so there should be a breeze then. g x returns 3 fnord i have: fnord/ archives/ fnord
15:13:50 <b_jonas> "how am I still connected to irc? I have 60% packet loss, and varying responsehow am I still connected to irc? I have 60% packet loss, and varying response times" => by the magic of TCP/IP.
15:15:12 <b_jonas> Vorpal: "don't know perl, no idea" => the pumpkin is described in https://perldoc.perl.org/perlhist#PUMPKIN?
15:16:52 <b_jonas> `<Vorpal> b_jonas: I can't find "Consumer society" on esolangs. Any link to it?' => there is none, because I haven't released it yet. it's one I've been planning to make for a few years, and the core language is now stabilized but I'm trying to keep it a secret, and my constant fear that someone else discovers the core lanugage before me hasn't yet overcome my lazyness in making it a full language (with
15:16:54 <HackEso> ​<Vorpal>? No such file or directory
15:16:58 <b_jonas> documentation, library, implementation, example programs, etc) and publishing it
15:19:04 <b_jonas> "<Vorpal> You would basically need a map to be able to program this" => Mornington Crescent…
15:19:18 <b_jonas> "<Vorpal> or are you just reading scrollback and ignoring new messages?" => yes, I'm still reading scrollback
15:21:39 <b_jonas> no longer, I caught upp
15:29:10 <b_jonas> what's the earliest computer program we know of that was first published in Europe and when was it published? I wonder when there will first be programs whose copyright protection has expired. we're in 2023 so we must be getting near
15:32:19 <b_jonas> though of course it's tricky because the term is 70 years plus authors' death, and most programs from back then that we still know of will have multiple authors
15:32:47 <b_jonas> but still, there will probably soon exist something somewhere
15:43:52 <esolangs> [[User:Piechicken20]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106648&oldid=106638 * Piechicken20 * (+0)
15:49:03 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106649&oldid=106639 * LyricLy * (+238) Structure instructions into sections
15:56:35 <esolangs> [[TimeWaste]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106650&oldid=106643 * Nathi1235 * (+797)
16:03:19 <esolangs> [[User:Yes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106651&oldid=106435 * Yes * (-50) /* Wikipedia */
16:04:04 <esolangs> [[User:Piechicken20]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106652&oldid=106648 * Piechicken20 * (+230)
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16:19:58 <esolangs> [[TimeWaste]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106653&oldid=106650 * Nathi1235 * (+0)
16:20:23 <esolangs> [[TimeWaste]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106654&oldid=106653 * Nathi1235 * (-1)
16:26:26 <esolangs> [[User:Nathi1235]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106655 * Nathi1235 * (+138) Created page with "Hi, my name is '''Nathanael''', I'm a Electronics- and Software-Engineering student at HTL in Austria. I am the creator of [[TimeWaste]]."
16:26:52 <esolangs> [[User:Nathi1235]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106656&oldid=106655 * Nathi1235 * (+2)
16:41:14 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106657&oldid=106649 * LyricLy * (+39) Add note about ! not rewinding
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19:02:18 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106658&oldid=106657 * LyricLy * (+127)
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23:14:30 <int-e> @bot
23:14:30 <lambdabot> :)
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09:22:59 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106659&oldid=106644 * Orisphera * (+60) /* Ideas for Names */
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11:53:03 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106660&oldid=106634 * McChuck * (-3) /* Example programs */
12:07:20 <esolangs> [[Listack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106661&oldid=106660 * McChuck * (+214) /* Example programs */
12:11:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bbf * New user account
12:13:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106662&oldid=106640 * Bbf * (+73) /* Introductions */
12:14:28 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106663&oldid=106641 * Bbf * (+23) /* B */
12:21:53 <esolangs> [[Binary Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106664 * Bbf * (+969) Created page with "Binary Brainfuck(BBF) is a programminglanguage that shows how complecaidet its realy is to programm. ==Commands== 000 -> . 001 -> , 010 -> + 011 -> - 100 -> > 101 -> < 110 -> [ 111 -> ] ==Implemantation== A compiler from BBF to BF in Python: def bbf2bf(hae
12:23:20 <esolangs> [[Binary Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106665&oldid=106664 * Bbf * (+371)
12:24:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Binary Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106666 * Bbf * (+79) Created page with "Van everoy ohne show about grammer and spelling etc. im not good in english!"
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15:56:06 <Vorpal> b_jonas: hm, I had forgot about Mornington Cresent. My idea had different semantics though. All the logic would be done via conditional instructions to drivers. And all drivers would operate at the same time, possibly causing traffic jams. And I had some other ideas to make the language... challenging... to program in.
16:55:57 <esolangs> [[Binary Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106668&oldid=106665 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+223) Add categories
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18:58:12 <int-e> Hmm, when did `top` add a `hh,mm` display format for the run time? I'm used to seeing stuff like 1440:00 there... (Debian unstable, procps-ng 4.0.2 ...maybe it's a 4.0 thing?)
19:01:31 <Vorpal> int-e: I haven't used top in decades? I found htop and then never looked back
19:05:28 * int-e shrugs
19:12:51 <int-e> I don't see the appeal.
19:29:42 <int-e> I might switch if `top` starts to annoy me more but I don't think this poor choice of time formats (they do DD+HH as well) is enough to push me over the edge.
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19:53:27 <Vorpal> htop just is easier to read for me
19:53:48 <Vorpal> and it has sane coloured defaults. Plus nice features like press s to strace a running process
19:54:57 <int-e> "easier to read" is a function of familiarity. And I never found colors appealing.
19:55:11 <int-e> The strace is cute I suppose.
19:55:38 <int-e> I saw that there's a monochrome color setup but it's ugly.
19:55:46 * int-e shrugs.
19:56:23 <int-e> And the `top` hotkeys don't work. Not surprising; again, familiarity is the main factor here.
20:10:35 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106669&oldid=106540 * Fancryer * (-18)
20:13:33 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106670&oldid=106669 * Fancryer * (+1065) /* Examples */
20:14:32 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106671&oldid=106670 * Fancryer * (+18) /* Examples */
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20:38:52 <esolangs> [[Phoneboard]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106672&oldid=96390 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+198) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Phoneboard programming language on GitHub and added the category tag Implemented.
20:40:09 <esolangs> [[Phoneboard]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106673&oldid=106672 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+336) Reformatted the introductory section and the instruction table and amended a few orthographic mistakes.
20:45:00 <esolangs> [[Phoneboard]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106674&oldid=106673 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+228) Added an examples section with two initial members, the first being an infinite cat program, the second constituting a truth-machine.
20:46:52 <esolangs> [[Phoneboard]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106675&oldid=106674 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+89) Subsumed the instructions into a section of their own.
20:47:02 <Vorpal> int-e: different set of hotkeys, but I think you can rebind
20:47:41 <int-e> meh it doesn't seem worth the trouble
20:47:43 <Vorpal> also it has mouse support in terminals that support that. Good for features you use rarely and thus don't have to remember
20:48:38 <Vorpal> that is my main issue with things like i3: too many things I use very rarely, that it wants me to remember the key binding for
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20:50:27 <Vorpal> I'll learn key bindings for the things I use. But for the options I touch once a month or less, it is great having a discoverable way to find it, be it via mouse clicks (sorting on weird columns in htop) or showing some tips along the bottom of the screen (nano and htop both do this), or perhaps having some sort of command palette that is search as you type. Many modern editors do this (sublime, vscode, pycharm, ...)
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20:53:14 <Vorpal> int-e: also colour helps the eye find information quickly. This has been shown in numerous scientific studies. We are way faster at picking out something that has a different colour than something that has a different shape. So when htop highlights abnormal heap RSS values in red, it is useful. And you can set it up to grey out threads from other users etc, which also helps readability and parsability.
20:54:13 <int-e> fungot: will this sales pitch ever end?
20:54:13 <fungot> int-e: " foobar" as " hasis".
20:54:50 <int-e> Vorpal: I sort by resident size if I care about memory usage.
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22:08:17 <esolangs> [[Stackylogic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106676&oldid=61930 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) Categories
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00:13:25 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106677&oldid=106661 * McChuck * (-4) /* Example programs */
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03:11:30 <zzo38> I think that the best way to know about all of the commands is that they are documented, in the documentation. So, that is what I had did with programs I wrote; ensure all of the commands are documented. (I think it is not necessary to waste screen space with the commands, usually)
04:01:22 <esolangs> [[Dis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106678&oldid=49727 * Pro465 * (+326) /* Sample programs */
04:02:50 <esolangs> [[Dis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106679&oldid=106678 * Pro465 * (+39) indent
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06:47:21 <zzo38> They added a rule 315 to Magic: the Gathering for the "battle" type, but there is no explanation yet. I don't know why they added it if there are no rules for that type yet. (I would guess this allows you to choose "battle" if an effect requires you to choose a type, but it doesn't seem meaningful to be able to do this.)
06:58:03 <int-e> I'm sure Reddit will come up with several theses worth of ideas of what it could be and then WotC can cherry-pick the mechanics they like the most. :-P
06:59:26 <int-e> Card: "Choose your own battle. - Make up a set of rules surrounding the `battle` type. These rules will be in effect until the end of the game."
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07:00:37 <int-e> I can hardly wait for the official rulings for that card.
07:01:06 <int-e> I guess it should be expensive... and cost both black and blue mana.
07:01:19 <int-e> ;-)
07:09:20 <int-e> Heck they might add that type just to distract from their huge D&D loss the past month.
07:09:39 <int-e> fungot: do you like conspiracies?
07:09:39 <fungot> int-e: what did you change? it doens't look anything like brainfuck code, saying what the code was a quick hack
07:10:16 <int-e> wow, that's very coherent
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12:07:27 <fizzie> Been a while since I last added a style, so thought I'd do one.
12:07:29 <fizzie> ^style elon
12:07:29 <fungot> Selected style: elon (tweets by Melon Husk)
12:07:34 <fizzie> fungot: How's it going?
12:07:34 <fungot> fizzie: of course of the year, i'm expecting 70% to 80% are past warranty to cover any fire damage even if due to initial splashdown or subsequent tip over and body color is the sun? it appears that what he is saying is untrue
12:08:07 <fizzie> I don't think I got the model training parameters too good.
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14:09:36 <int-e> fire damage *and* splashdown
14:10:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106680&oldid=72510 * Pro465 * (+169)
14:13:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106681&oldid=106680 * Pro465 * (+2)
14:34:42 <esolangs> [[Binary Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106682&oldid=106668 * SpaceByte * (+2)
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15:22:01 <esolangs> [[Queen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106683 * Pro465 * (+66) Created page with "Queen is a WIP Language by [[User:Pro465]], based on a call queue."
15:25:11 <esolangs> [[Queen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106684&oldid=106683 * Pro465 * (+8) add wip tag
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17:08:10 <Guest8> hello
17:08:33 <Guest8> irc internet relay chat
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17:28:08 <fizzie> Um.
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18:15:14 <GregorR> An inspiration to all of us
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00:11:25 <Sgeo> I tried to get ChatGPT to divide by 0. It started out better this time than the last time I tried. https://sharegpt.com/c/7z2BDJg
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03:53:49 <zzo38> My brother agreed with me that the rule for legendary instants/sorceries is no good and that my unofficial rule for ongoing phenomena/dungeons/Sagas is good.
05:04:53 <Sgeo> No good in the sense that it doesn't quite match up with legendary permanents? Or how?
05:05:08 <Sgeo> I recently became willing to play MTG again. I don't think I am capable of staying away
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06:31:06 <zzo38> Yes, it doesn't quite match up with legendary permanents. It means something different in this case so it isn't very good.
06:32:40 <zzo38> (The unofficial rule for ongoing though is more like the existing ongoing rule; it suppresses state-based actions that affect the object if it is not the source of any triggered ability or pending triggered ability.)
07:04:38 <esolangs> [[Queen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106685&oldid=106684 * Pro465 * (+848) initial revision
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07:10:17 <zzo38> Can you make up any more Magic: the Gathering puzzles? I do not really intend to buy the cards and play the game, but I am interested in the puzzles. (And, if they published more books with them, then I might buy them, too; I do have one book)
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07:37:59 <Sgeo> I'm not inventive enough to create puzzles, but I know there exists at least one website dedicated to MTG puzzles (possibilitystorm.com)
07:39:17 <zzo38> I have made some puzzles before, and I have some ideas but haven't made them
07:42:56 <zzo38> (One puzzle that I made up involves that you have to concede, in order to win. I have a few other ideas involving such a thing, too.)
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07:50:45 <b_jonas> Sgeo: I was wondering if the best way to play magic might just be to make a nostalgy format that uses old rules and old cards from the golden age of Magic. the bigger problem is, no two people will agree on when that was, everyone likes the time when they started playing and say that Magic was just getting worse after that. the smaller problem is that I don't have the Comprehensive rules and Oracle
07:50:51 <b_jonas> database going back that far in the past, the oldest I have is 2007-03 for cards and 2007-05 for rules.
07:51:08 <b_jonas> I think ideally I'd want between Dissension and Coldsnap
07:52:02 <esolangs> [[Queen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106686&oldid=106685 * Pro465 * (+50) add cat example
07:53:48 <b_jonas> we could backport a few clearly good bugfixes from the future of course, such as the one bugfix that I'm responsible for back when Wizards was still running a forum and people working in Wizards read it; these days they closed the old style web forum and only communicate on Twitter or Snapchat or Tiktok or whatever the kids these days use
07:55:39 <b_jonas> (bugfix was for how the offering keyword from Betrayers of Kamigawa interacts with hybrid mana in mana costs, that was previously unspecified)
08:27:24 <esolangs> [[Counterfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106687&oldid=103455 * Salpynx * (+4) clarify
08:27:41 <int-e> ^style
08:27:41 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld elon* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
08:28:01 <int-e> yeah not touching that
08:28:27 <int-e> Maybe if I wanted a horse, but I don't.
08:32:06 <esolangs> [[Counterfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106688&oldid=106687 * Salpynx * (-4) /* Copy (duplicate and add) a prime encoded 'virtual' register */ Unicode exponents
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08:54:16 <esolangs> [[Queen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106689&oldid=106686 * Pro465 * (+296) /* Examples */ add hello world program
09:18:09 <esolangs> [[Queen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106690&oldid=106689 * Pro465 * (+90) add categories
09:20:25 <esolangs> [[Queen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106691&oldid=106690 * Pro465 * (+0) fix typo
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11:15:22 <wib_jonas> huh, you added a new elon style
11:17:32 <fizzie> Yeah, but it's not very good.
11:17:36 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a good CEO?
11:17:36 <fungot> fizzie: our best landing video to date, ai risk, our final invention of writing, is only 5500 years old, but as a weapon, so thats a reasonable question
11:19:03 <int-e> It's exactly 144 characters. I'm convinced.
11:19:19 <fizzie> I should have a better way of evaluating the goodness of a model than just generating 20 or so lines from it and trusting my feelings, then I could tweak the training parameters.
11:19:57 <fizzie> But I kind of suspect traditional language model performance metrics (perplexity, cross-entropy, ...) really measure how good it's for amusing people on IRC.
11:20:05 <fizzie> ^ don't
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11:30:24 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I still think you should make a model based on lolcatbible.com . I may even have a very old dump of it, prepared to contain only the relevant text that I extracted, that I gave you at some point.
11:31:38 <wib_jonas> "traditional language model performance metrics" => also they only work well if the corpus is large enough that you can divide it to two really disjoint sets (including no retweets that quote the text of a previous tweet ideally), and I don't know if your corpus is large enough for that
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11:41:26 <fizzie> It was 16349 tweets, of which I used 15k for the training set and 1349 for the held-out set, which the language model training tool I use wants for tuning the Kneser-Ney discounting.
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11:42:18 <wib_jonas> I see
11:42:42 <wib_jonas> so that's about two megabytes
11:44:19 <fizzie> To be honest, the Befunge implementation doesn't actually use the backoff probabilities of the generated model at all, and always picks the word from the highest-order n-gram set it can find for the current context. Which is just... incorrect, as far as the model goes.
11:46:10 <wib_jonas> well sure, but you don't want fungоt to be a really good language model anyway, that would lose his original personality
11:46:33 <fizzie> The manual for the tool I'm using says suitable size for the held-out set is "around 100 000 words/tokens", but I've only got 247309 in total.
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12:20:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Leol22 * New user account
12:21:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106692&oldid=106662 * Leol22 * (+50) /* Introductions */
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13:06:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106693&oldid=106663 * Pro465 * (+12) /* Q */ add Queen language
13:09:49 <wib_jonas> oh joy! python 3.11 changes the function datetime.datetime.fromisoformat so it now accepts more formats, including the short ISO 8601 formats that lack the hyphen and colon separators, such as "20230207" or "20230207T1309", and the week number formats like "2023-W06-2". so far this makes sense. but wait!
13:11:32 <wib_jonas> they also added some, uh, "reasonable extensions" to the formats that ISO 8601 allows, including that for the separator between the date and time, which should be "T" per ISO 8601, they now accept any one character. including a digit. which means dtm.datetime.fromisoformat("20230201013") is now parsed as if it was 2023-02-01T13, using the last zero
13:11:33 <wib_jonas> as the separator.
13:13:12 <wib_jonas> that's delightfully incompatible with perl's Date::Manip, which allows another "reasonable extension" which is omitting the separator between the date and time parts entirely, so  $d=Date::Manip::Date->new;$d->parse("20230201013"); parses that string as 2023-020T10:13, that is, day 20 in year 2023, after 10 o'clock, a different time. brilliant!
13:14:05 <wib_jonas> I side against python 3.11's datetime here, allowing a digit as the separator is stupid and error-prone, it will lead to at least silently missing errors.
13:14:20 <wib_jonas> sure, accept some alternate separators instead of "T" if you wish, but not digits please
13:16:48 <wib_jonas> Date::Manip is a bit overzealous in parsing so I'm not sure whether you do want to allow no separator at all, but that's an inheritence from the Date::Manip 5 days when the module's internal date format was something like "2023020713:10:00" (plus maybe some timezone thing)
13:28:13 <wib_jonas> .oO(there are fifteen different timestamp parsing modules with all different semantics. I know! I'll just make one timestamp parsing module that has the best semantics covering all use cases, and release it as free software!)
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14:41:54 <wib_jonas> `perl -weuse Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new; $d->parse("20230302122") or print $d->printf("%O = %KT%X\n"); # so I understand this one, it parses as year 2023, day of year 030, hour 21, minute 22
14:41:55 <HackEso> 2023-01-30T21:22:00 = 2023-030T21:22:00
14:42:09 <wib_jonas> `perl -weuse Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new; $d->parse("20230302922") or print $d->printf("%O = %KT%X\n"); # but where the heck does this come from?
14:42:11 <HackEso> 2664-03-05T15:17:33 = 2664-065T15:17:33
14:42:47 <wib_jonas> `perl -weuse Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new; print $d->version(1); # for the record
14:42:48 <HackEso> 6.76 [utc]
14:56:05 <fizzie> 20230302922 seconds since January 1, 1970?
14:56:09 <fizzie> `` date --date=@20230302922
14:56:49 <HackEso> Mon Jan 28 00:35:22 UTC 2611
14:57:01 <fizzie> Hmm. Well, right century, but not quite.
14:57:37 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I was thinking of that, but it doesn't seem like it. for that, Date::Manip wants the format "epoch 20230302922", and in any case the numbers just don't match
14:58:03 <fizzie> `` date --date=@$(( $(date +%s) + 20230302922 ))
14:58:04 <HackEso> Sat Mar 5 15:33:26 UTC 2664
14:58:08 <wib_jonas> `dateu @20230302922
14:58:08 <HackEso> 2611-01-28 00:35:22.000 +0000 UTC January 28 Monday 2611-W05-1
14:58:14 <wib_jonas> this is what I use by the way
14:58:19 <fizzie> 20230302922 seconds after the current time seems to be a pretty good match ^
14:58:27 <wib_jonas> ``` date +%s -d "@20230302922 "
14:58:28 <HackEso> 20230302922
14:59:22 <wib_jonas> huh...
14:59:45 <wib_jonas> `dateu now +202303022922sec
14:59:47 <HackEso> 8433-10-30 19:08:28.528 +0000 UTC October 30 Sunday 8433-W43-7
15:00:01 <wib_jonas> `dateu now +20230302292sec
15:00:02 <HackEso> 2664-03-05 15:24:54.125 +0000 UTC March 5 Saturday 2664-W09-6
15:00:06 <wib_jonas> `dateu now +20230302922sec
15:00:07 <HackEso> 2664-03-05 15:35:29.077 +0000 UTC March 5 Saturday 2664-W09-6
15:00:11 <wib_jonas> that, yes
15:00:15 <wib_jonas> odd
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15:03:10 <wib_jonas> `perl -weuse Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new; $d->parse("20230302922") and die; $n = $d->new("now"); print $d->printf("%O; "), $n->printf("%O; "), $n->calc($d)->printf("%sys; ");
15:03:12 <HackEso> 2664-03-05T15:38:33; 2023-02-07T15:03:11; 20230302922;
15:03:32 <fizzie> > Most valid deltas can be used to specify a date, and the date is defined as that delta added to "now". Refer to the Date::Manip::Delta documentation for a list of valid delta formats.
15:03:33 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:48: error: parse error on input ‘,’
15:03:57 <fizzie> Should remember not to use > for quoting here.
15:03:59 <wib_jonas> indeed it's the number of seconds from now. that's odd. I'll check on a later version of Date::Manip and perl later, just to be sure, and if it still does that, I'll ask Sbeck
15:04:39 <fizzie> I think the logic is that it's a valid delta (a Date::Manip::Delta string can omit the word "seconds" and have just the one field), so that's how it gets parsed as.
15:05:08 <wib_jonas> sure, but it's still inconsistent with how 20230302122 is parsed
15:06:37 <wib_jonas> also this is funny because now 20230302122 can mean three different times: 2023-030T21:22 (Date::Manip's preference), now plus 20230302122 seconds, or 2023-03-02T22:00
15:06:59 <wib_jonas> though I still think the last one, python 3.11's interpretation, is just a straight up bug
15:08:36 <wib_jonas> this is now definitely esoteric territory by the way
15:10:04 <fizzie> Mhm, right. Well, it can't parse 20230302922 the same way it parsed 20230302122 (because it'd be hour 29), so it... falls back to interpreting it as a delta? Something like that. Sounds like one of these things where the implementation is the specification.
15:16:11 <wib_jonas> `perl -weuse Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new; $n = $d->new("now"); for $s (20230228..20230232) { print"$s => "; if ($d->parse($s)) { print "parse error: ", $d->err, "\n"; } else { print $d->printf("%O = %KT%X = "), $n->calc($d)->printf("now+%syssec\n"); } }
15:16:13 <HackEso> 20230228 => 2023-02-28T00:00:00 = 2023-059T00:00:00 = now+1759428sec \ 20230229 => parse error: [parse] Invalid date \ 20230230 => parse error: [parse] Invalid date \ 20230231 => parse error: [parse] Invalid date \ 20230232 => 2023-09-29T18:46:45 = 2023-272T18:46:45 = now+20230233sec
15:16:26 <wib_jonas> ^ delightful, it occurs even for 8-digit and 10-digit strings
15:17:14 <wib_jonas> `perl -weuse Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new; $n = $d->new("now"); for $s (20230430..20230432) { print"$s => "; if ($d->parse($s)) { print "parse error: ", $d->err, "\n"; } else { print $d->printf("%O = %KT%X = "), $n->calc($d)->printf("now+%syssec\n"); } }
15:17:16 <HackEso> 20230430 => 2023-04-30T00:00:00 = 2023-120T00:00:00 = now+7029765sec \ 20230431 => parse error: [parse] Invalid date \ 20230432 => 2023-09-29T18:51:07 = 2023-272T18:51:07 = now+20230432sec
15:18:08 <wib_jonas> 20230430 is a valid date meaning 2023-04-30 as exected; 20230431 is invalid because 2023-04 does not have a month 31, and 2023-04-32 means now +20230432 seconds
15:23:03 <wib_jonas> `perl -weuse Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new(); $n = $d->new("now"); $s = "201612312359"; for $_r (0..2) { $u = "$s UTC"; print"$u => "; if ($d->parse($u)) { print "parse error: ", $d->err, "\n"; } else { print $d->printf("%O = "), $n->calc($d)->printf("now+%syssec\n"); } $s++ }
15:23:05 <HackEso> 201612312359 UTC => 2016-12-31T23:59:00 = now+-192554644sec \ 201612312360 UTC => 8411-12-11T11:29:04 = now+201612312360sec \ 201612312361 UTC => 8411-12-11T11:29:05 = now+201612312361sec
15:24:45 <wib_jonas> ^ that's got to be a bug, right? 2016-12-31T23:60 UTC was a real leap second, so even if you don't handle leap seconds, 201612312360 should be parsed correctly as some time around 2016-12-31T23:60, right? assuming, as Date::Manip documents, that the T can be omitted
15:25:21 <wib_jonas> or hmm
15:25:27 <wib_jonas> that would be a leap minute, which is invalid
15:25:37 <wib_jonas> `perl -weuse Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new(); $n = $d->new("now"); $s = "20161231235959"; for $_r (0..2) { $u = "$s UTC"; print"$u => "; if ($d->parse($u)) { print "parse error: ", $d->err, "\n"; } else { print $d->printf("%O = "), $n->calc($d)->printf("now+%syssec\n"); } $s++ }
15:25:39 <HackEso> 20161231235959 UTC => 2016-12-31T23:59:59 = now+-192554739sec \ 20161231235960 UTC => parse error: [parse] Delta too large \ 20161231235961 UTC => parse error: [parse] Delta too large
15:26:06 <wib_jonas> but even 20161231235960 UTC, which should be a leap second, isn't parsed right
15:28:09 <wib_jonas> well, the previous thing still applies. I'll have to test with a later version of Date::Manip, and unless that clears up everything (unlikely based on the Changes documents) I'll have to mail Sbeck
15:42:15 <wib_jonas> I mean even if it's not a bug, it should be documented as a caveat you have to be careful about, or in the changelogs as fixed
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16:02:08 <esolangs> [[Queen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106694&oldid=106691 * Pro465 * (+129) /* Examples */ add truth machine program
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16:42:46 <esolangs> [[Binary Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106695&oldid=106682 * Bbf * (+294) /* Commands */
16:43:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Binary Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106696&oldid=106666 * Bbf * (-79) Blanked the page
16:45:32 <esolangs> [[Binary Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106697&oldid=106695 * Bbf * (+13) /* Hello World! Script */
16:47:02 <esolangs> [[Binary Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106698&oldid=106697 * Bbf * (+2) /* Hello World! Script */
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17:34:23 <zzo38> We could try to work to write rules for playing a old style game if wanted, with some newer corrections too. I do have some ideas about how this could be done, although it would also require writing errata for some cards
18:09:47 <esolangs> [[TurtleDigits]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106700&oldid=94927 * NikiTricky * (+74) Add more categories
18:15:54 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106701&oldid=106677 * McChuck * (+0) /* Example programs */
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19:37:06 <esolangs> [[PRINT/Concept Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106702&oldid=106631 * SpaceByte * (-16)
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21:44:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: wait, it gets better. Date::Manip parses 111111-11 as meaning 2011-11-11T11:00, which is documented. but 111111-55 is parsed as 2011-11-11T??:55 where the hour is taken from the current date but the minute is overwritten with 55.
21:44:40 <b_jonas> so I turned that to https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=11150225
21:51:06 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck Encoded Concatenative Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106703&oldid=103166 * Olus2000 * (+30) /* Computational class */ typo in `cat call` reduction
22:51:28 <esolangs> [[Falsish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106704&oldid=104788 * McChuck * (+14) /* See also */
22:52:23 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106705&oldid=106701 * McChuck * (+24) /* Features */
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08:47:16 <b_jonas> also 111111 is parsed as -11-11-11 year-month-date, which is a deliberate documented choice, but 111155 parses as 11:11:55 hour:minute:seconds.
08:47:46 <b_jonas> and 111199 parses as now+111199 seconds
08:48:01 <b_jonas> Date::Manip is delightfully eso
08:57:17 <b_jonas> also 07-08-09 parses as -07-08-09 two digit year, month, date; but 07-08-39 parses as 1939-07-08 month, day, year;
08:58:27 <JAA> I propose to rename it to Date::Maniac.
09:10:01 <esolangs> [[Danicb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106706&oldid=106325 * Squidmanescape * (+1389)
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13:47:08 <esolangs> [[Amycus Severus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106707&oldid=75728 * Pro465 * (-1) /* Definition */ fix typo
14:19:47 <GregorR> Is this date parsing Turing-complete? Can we turn it into an esolang?
14:52:08 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106708&oldid=106671 * Fancryer * (+833) /* Examples */
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16:52:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asicosilomu * New user account
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17:11:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106709&oldid=106692 * Asicosilomu * (+207)
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17:19:55 <b_jonas> GregorR: date parsing without locales definitely isn't Turing-complete. but Date::Manip allows the user to define new time zones, recurrences, and sets of holidays (to do calculations like adding a given number of business days). I never used those features and I don't know much about how those work, whether they have something Turing-complete in them, or indeed whether they allow the definitions to
17:20:02 <b_jonas> call back to the perl environment
17:20:22 <b_jonas> as for "Can we tur it into an esolang?" yes, by doing nothing. Date::Manip's date parsing is already an esolang.
17:41:40 <sknebel> cursed idea: language with time-based jumps
17:42:01 <sknebel> "goto -10" jumps to the line that was being executed 10µs ago
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18:16:29 <b_jonas> sknebel: that is easy enough when you only want to jump backwards for loops or return from subroutines: you save the time at the start of the loop or the call site, then subtract the current time and jump that way. it gets funnier when you want to jump forward in time for conditionals or call subroutines. you have to somehow guess how long the section of the code that you want to not execute would take
18:16:35 <b_jonas> to jump after it.
18:17:12 <b_jonas> the typical method would be to put a launch pad after the section, make the launch pad just a sleep that's much longer than how much time the skippable section takes, and jump comfortably into the middle of that.
18:20:26 <sknebel> Yeah. For some cases you could do speculative execution style, but not for everything
18:23:45 <b_jonas> you'll probably need landing pads of exponentially growing duration for multiple nested conditionals
18:23:50 <b_jonas> which doesn't bode well if you want conditionals
18:24:07 <b_jonas> this sounds like something an Intercal dialect might want to do
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18:29:02 <esolangs> [[Listack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106710&oldid=106705 * McChuck * (+83) /* Example programs */
18:29:58 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106711&oldid=106710 * McChuck * (+1) /* Example programs */
18:31:27 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106712&oldid=106711 * McChuck * (+2) /* Example programs */
18:32:26 <fizzie> There's a time travel fingerprint ("TRDS") for Befunge-98. But a jump to the future with it isn't "jump to where execution would have ended up", it's just in relationship to time as it exists for the other threads of execution.
18:32:28 <fizzie> http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#TRDS
18:32:41 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106713&oldid=106712 * McChuck * (-10) /* Example programs */
18:33:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: so future time travel is a sleep?
18:35:12 <b_jonas> I mean if I had to implement actual time travel, rather than going to in time, then I'd just make it a sleep for future time travel, and a loop of a long sleep followed by reloading the time travel dynamic library for past time travel (hopefully at some point we get a time machine working and replace the library with one that uses it for backwards time travel)
18:35:51 <fizzie> Yeah, future time travel is effectively a sleep.
18:38:03 <b_jonas> right, digital computers just handle it worse than humans. there are humans who have lived for over 100 years, but no digital computer that we have today can last for that long. but then we can probably ensure that the program is live migratable to another computer, possibly one that has to emulate a long dead ancient system
18:43:40 <b_jonas> the retrocomputing folks do crazy emulators for old hardware, including simulators that simulate every transistor or other basic component of at least two old CPUs, to make sure that even most weird CPU bugs are simulated
18:53:33 <esolangs> [[Listack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106714&oldid=106713 * McChuck * (+142) # starship operator
18:54:09 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106715&oldid=106714 * McChuck * (+36) /* Example programs */
19:01:49 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106716&oldid=106715 * McChuck * (+16) /* Example programs */
19:03:18 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106717&oldid=106716 * McChuck * (+0) /* Example programs */
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19:19:12 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106719&oldid=106718 * McChuck * (+2) /* Example programs */
19:22:48 <esolangs> [[WTFCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106720 * Asicosilomu * (+9980) Created this page
19:23:48 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106721&oldid=106693 * Asicosilomu * (+14) Add WTFCode
19:26:45 <esolangs> [[WTFCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106722&oldid=106720 * Asicosilomu * (+1) Correct return value
19:44:27 <zzo38> The other idea other than Magic: the Gathering is we can make up our own card game; I have a few ideas.
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20:45:22 <esolangs> [[Listack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106723&oldid=106719 * McChuck * (-193) /* Example programs */
20:53:14 <myname> have you played mindbug?
21:21:50 <zzo38> I have not heard of that.
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22:42:50 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106726&oldid=106725 * McChuck * (+70) /* Example programs */
22:45:25 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106727&oldid=106726 * McChuck * (+134) /* Example programs */
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01:23:43 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106728&oldid=106658 * LyricLy * (+2176) Partially document changes (views will be explained soon)
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11:34:36 <esolangs> [[Capsule]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106731 * Leol22 * (+432) Created page with "==Capsule== Capsule is an esoteric programming language featuring an 8*8 grid of integers and two stacks. Its orignal compiler was made in C# by [[Leol22]]. ==Computational Class== Capsule was proven Turing Complete after [[Brainfuck Encoded Concatenative Calculus]] was
11:37:37 <esolangs> [[Capsule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106732&oldid=106731 * Leol22 * (+40)
11:38:07 <esolangs> [[Capsule]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106733&oldid=106732 * Leol22 * (+60)
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04:42:45 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106735&oldid=106730 * LyricLy * (+3423) Document lenses
04:46:12 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106736&oldid=106735 * LyricLy * (+18) Reformat select drilling
04:49:46 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106737&oldid=106736 * LyricLy * (+1) pop -> take
05:01:37 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106738&oldid=106737 * LyricLy * (-3) s -> q
05:02:15 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106739&oldid=106738 * LyricLy * (+0) Whoops
05:18:35 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106740&oldid=106708 * Fancryer * (-51) /* Planned */
05:24:17 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106741&oldid=106740 * Fancryer * (+326) /* String */
05:25:17 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106742&oldid=106741 * Fancryer * (+52) /* String */
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07:51:17 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106744&oldid=106742 * Fancryer * (+283) /* Hello world */
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08:21:35 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106745&oldid=106744 * Fancryer * (+1) /* Service */
08:23:18 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106746&oldid=106745 * Fancryer * (-175) /* Hello world */
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08:34:59 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106747&oldid=106746 * Fancryer * (+276) /* 99 bottles of beer */
08:41:02 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106748&oldid=106747 * Fancryer * (-1)
08:51:41 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106749&oldid=106748 * Fancryer * (+3016)
08:52:57 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106750&oldid=106749 * Fancryer * (+32) /* Constants */
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10:19:36 <river> I haven't played mindbug either, but I heard about it in this channel
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10:51:52 <esolangs> [[BF instruction extension]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106751&oldid=71343 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+205) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the brainfuck instruction extension project on GitHub.
10:52:21 <esolangs> [[BF instruction extension]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106752&oldid=106751 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+137) Added categories to the page.
10:54:43 <esolangs> [[BF instruction extension]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106753&oldid=106752 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+167) Introduced an examples section containing as its initial member a truth-machine program.
10:56:18 <esolangs> [[BF instruction extension]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106754&oldid=106753 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+137) Added an infinitely repeating cat program as a second example.
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13:13:59 <GregorR> In a way, are esolangs not mind bugs?
13:39:40 <esolangs> [[BF instruction extension]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106755&oldid=106754 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+14) Introduced a hyperlink to the brainfuck article in the preamble.
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16:53:56 <int-e> GregorR: well, this extends to ideas in general, maybe even just thoughts.
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17:35:48 <b_jonas> yeah, all thoughts are mind bugs that cause us, who are supposed to be mere instinctual creatures, to often behave oddly
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17:45:32 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106756&oldid=106750 * Fancryer * (+3) /* Grammar */
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18:00:49 <b_jonas> `ftoc 90
18:00:51 <HackEso> 90.00°F = 32.22°C
18:01:07 <myname> it's a pretty good game. packs a lot of punch in that few cards
18:01:52 <int-e> `? context
18:01:54 <HackEso> context is a word with many meanings, depending on where it is used.
18:01:55 <myname> slightly related if people are into similar stuff: pocket paragon. season 2 will start soon
18:09:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Coco33920 * New user account
18:12:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106757&oldid=106734 * Coco33920 * (+216)
18:16:01 <esolangs> [[User:Coco33920]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106758 * Coco33920 * (+181) Created page with "Hello, I'm Charlotte Thomas, a french functional developer, I prefer OCaml. You can find me on GitHub, Twitter, Discord, all is specified in my online website https://me.nwa2coco.fr"
18:24:28 <esolangs> [[Baguette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106759 * Coco33920 * (+244) creation of the Baguette page
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18:47:54 <esolangs> [[Baguette]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106760&oldid=106759 * Coco33920 * (+5049)
18:51:26 <esolangs> [[Baguette]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106761&oldid=106760 * Coco33920 * (+677)
19:13:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106762&oldid=106729 * Coco33920 * (+15) add baguette language
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20:23:24 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106763&oldid=106743 * LyricLy * (+169) j drills now
20:58:47 <esolangs> [[X7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106764&oldid=106763 * LyricLy * (+131) Add c and make u an ender
21:04:50 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106765&oldid=106764 * LyricLy * (+5)
21:27:22 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106766&oldid=106765 * LyricLy * (+1) _ pops a *group*
21:31:49 <esolangs> [[Baguette]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106767&oldid=106761 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) Categories
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23:10:11 <esolangs> [[User:HelloWorldGangHere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106768&oldid=105635 * HelloWorldGangHere * (-49)
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05:00:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106769&oldid=106762 * Fancryer * (+11) /* G */ GAXT added
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07:16:51 <zzo38> Someone mentioned (on here, I think) about Magic: the Gathering they think some changes are no good. I agree, but I also think that improvements haev been made, too. (For example, the rule for token naming, and for the Legend subtype, have been improved compared with the older rules, I think.)
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12:04:40 <esolangs> [[GAXT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106770&oldid=106756 * Fancryer * (+17) /* Grammar */
12:22:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Taitep * New user account
12:26:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106771&oldid=106757 * Taitep * (+167)
12:27:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106772&oldid=106771 * Taitep * (-3)
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18:09:06 <esolangs> [[Okayako]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106773&oldid=96577 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+16)
18:09:35 <esolangs> [[Okayako]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106774&oldid=106773 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+22)
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20:18:30 <shachaf> Oh no, I just opened up my N-Step Steve thing after a long time and all my progress has been lost.
20:18:39 <shachaf> I think I was pretty close to having everything?
20:36:06 <b_jonas> oops
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21:24:05 <int-e> shachaf: you had screenshots, but I forgot how much was missing. there were a couple of weird teleports left
21:25:05 <int-e> shachaf: unfortunately https://slbkbs.org/tmp/su/steve.png is not very informative at this point
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22:53:10 <shachaf> int-e: Try now.
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02:42:10 <int-e> shachaf: mine was https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/steve.png
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02:56:46 <int-e> oh I guess you could check the logs for numbers
03:01:18 <int-e> The latest report I see was <shachaf> Still at 18+27+19
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04:09:00 <shachaf> Oh, I guess that's newer than the latest screenshot I took.
04:10:37 <int-e> FWIW, the game was updated, but it's still served from the same server for me... (slightly different URL; I'm looking at the iframe's location)
04:14:21 <int-e> shachaf: well, the difference is the "impossible" star that we both got basically at the same time
04:15:09 <int-e> (at 14,19; you can see the star in your older screenshot)
04:30:04 <shachaf> Oh, right. What was that star?
04:30:11 <shachaf> Oh, I remember now.
04:31:13 <int-e> I still have my map but I'm reluctant to share it; it's spoilery because I used level screenshots rather than the telescope thingy. So you can see kittens entering.
04:31:41 <int-e> Or, in some cases, in strategically important places.
04:31:50 <shachaf> I wish it wasn't a browser thing.
04:32:04 <int-e> I don't have a save state.
04:32:05 <shachaf> I don't know why it lost my state but it seems almost expected for that to happen.
04:32:43 <int-e> Yeah, same here... probably worse because I routinely delete all that browser state.
04:37:18 <int-e> I'm still torturing kissat.
04:37:37 <int-e> (Just to keep with the kitten theme.)
04:38:45 <shachaf> Oh, what are you SAT-solving?
04:39:27 <int-e> Pushing a bit at Ponder This
04:40:28 <int-e> (which as far as I can see isn't quite in NP but close enough)
04:40:48 <int-e> (the bonus problem for varying n, that is)
04:46:19 <int-e> (It's not the most natural of problems, but it is interesting. I have no clue whether arbitrarily large solutions exist; the size works against that while the increasing number of kings works in favor, and the two factors seem to be fairly well balanced.)
04:47:12 <int-e> Also the largest solution I have is for n=81, not a huge number.
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06:59:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ashli Katt * New user account
07:04:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106775&oldid=106772 * Ashli Katt * (+146)
07:35:01 <esolangs> [[Bundle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106776&oldid=104696 * Gilbert189 * (+4467)
07:40:31 <esolangs> [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106777&oldid=91253 * Quintopia * (+14)
07:41:08 <esolangs> [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106778&oldid=106777 * Quintopia * (-14) Undo revision 106777 by [[Special:Contributions/Quintopia|Quintopia]] ([[User talk:Quintopia|talk]])
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20:05:09 <shachaf> Was this place also error-correcting-code-land? I'm wondering about this: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4637611/largest-number-of-shards-for-linear-erasure-codes-over-a-finite-field
21:01:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, we're occasionally that too
21:01:32 <b_jonas> feel free to change the topic
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23:39:25 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106779 * Proxxa * (+7297) Create a page for Tupilled, a Tuple-based language.
23:45:00 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106780&oldid=106779 * Ashli Katt * (-298)
23:48:31 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106781&oldid=106780 * Proxxa * (+336) /* Reserved Tokens */
23:48:57 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106782&oldid=106781 * Proxxa * (-1) Typo
23:50:25 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106783&oldid=106782 * Ashli Katt * (+163) /* Infixing */
23:52:09 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106784&oldid=106769 * Proxxa * (+18) /* T */ Add Tuplepilled to the language list
23:52:21 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106785&oldid=106783 * Ashli Katt * (+0) /* Input/Output */
23:53:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106786&oldid=106784 * Proxxa * (-3) /* T */ The name of the language is Tupilled, not Tuplepilled.
00:05:47 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106787&oldid=106785 * Proxxa * (+115) /* Reverse Cat */ Expand categories
00:06:21 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106788&oldid=106787 * Proxxa * (+1) /* Reverse Cat */ Usability unkown? That's fun.
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05:43:13 <zzo38> Is Amycus numbering useful in other contexts?
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13:24:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Collatz sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106789&oldid=65171 * Pro465 * (+147)
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16:54:00 <ballerspace> holar
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16:59:51 <ballerspace> +bf
17:00:27 <ballerspace> `dvsdg
17:00:28 <ballerspace> ww
17:00:29 <HackEso> dvsdg? No such file or directory
17:00:29 <ballerspace> ad
17:00:30 <ballerspace> wa
17:00:31 <ballerspace> s
17:00:32 <ballerspace> d
17:00:33 <ballerspace> wa
17:00:33 <ballerspace> s
17:00:34 <ballerspace> d
17:00:35 <ballerspace> wa
17:00:36 <ballerspace> s
17:00:37 <ballerspace> d
17:00:38 <ballerspace> wa
17:00:39 <ballerspace> s
17:00:40 <ballerspace> d
17:00:40 <ballerspace> w
17:00:41 <ballerspace> a
17:00:41 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q hal!*@*.
17:00:42 <ballerspace> sd
17:00:43 <ballerspace> w
17:00:44 <ballerspace> YOOOOOO
17:00:45 <ballerspace> `help
17:00:45 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
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17:38:04 <int-e> (that's from a public school, so probably a bored kid)
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18:21:40 <esolangs> [[SillyCon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106790&oldid=76433 * Kwikrick * (-63) /* External resources */
18:22:02 <esolangs> [[SillyCon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106791&oldid=106790 * Kwikrick * (-7) /* External resources */
18:25:45 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106792&oldid=106788 * Ashli Katt * (+163)
18:29:30 <esolangs> [[SillyCon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106793&oldid=106791 * Kwikrick * (+229) update list of operators
18:31:01 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106794&oldid=106792 * Ashli Katt * (+391) /* Examples */
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19:42:32 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106795&oldid=106794 * Ashli Katt * (-36) /* Reserved Tokens */
19:44:41 <b_jonas> int-e: trying to figure out why wasd doesn't move their character, yes
19:45:53 <int-e> I don't quite believe that... :P
19:52:24 <b_jonas> wait, why does the dynamic IP of my home internet suddenly reverse DNS to under monradsl.monornet.hu ? that's scary. Monor region aka +3629 is infamous about being the one location in Hungary where telecommunication networks work completely differently from the rest of the country, and I'm definitely not there.
19:54:21 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106796&oldid=106795 * Ashli Katt * (-327) /* Pattern Matching */
19:55:19 <b_jonas> I guess Vodafone just messed up something in the configuration, btu still, this is how ghost stories start, one day your friend's ip reverse resolves to Monor, three days later he disappears and you never see them again\
19:58:20 <wpa> omg we had a genuine troll .. what an opportunity i missed.
20:05:43 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106797&oldid=106796 * Ashli Katt * (+569) /* Piecewise Functions */
20:11:43 <wpa> b_jonas: you have vodaphone net? we bascially have only vodaphone and o2 left in germany. was hoping vodaphone is the quality services. its like 2x as much in costs than 02 and its derivates.
20:12:05 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106798&oldid=106797 * Ashli Katt * (-32) /* Input/Output */
20:12:34 <wpa> b_jonas: you won't tell me how that works. will you?
20:14:34 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106799&oldid=106798 * Ashli Katt * (+298) /* Input/Output */
20:15:18 <wpa> if you could have been everybody. why not oerjan, elliott, ais or fizzy? wait fizzy is here
20:15:30 <wpa> isnt she
20:15:49 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106800&oldid=106799 * Ashli Katt * (+1) /* Input/Output */
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20:17:09 <wpa> the other possibiliy is, you are just as overwhelmed with the (fake) mass resonance ..like eating shit cause millions of flies cant be wrong.
20:17:33 <wpa> i still remember the internet. i just hope its still out ther.
20:17:51 <b_jonas> wpa: no, I'm pretty sure it's Vodafone, not Vodaphone
20:18:14 <wpa> noted.
20:19:47 <sprout> b_jonas: I will remember you fondly whenever you disappear
20:22:43 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106801&oldid=106800 * Ashli Katt * (-94) /* Reverse Cat */
20:33:44 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106802&oldid=106801 * Ashli Katt * (+578) /* Hello World */
20:34:03 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106803&oldid=106802 * Ashli Katt * (+0) /* Hello World */
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22:05:19 <esolangs> [[SillyCon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106804&oldid=106793 * Kwikrick * (+1691) /* Language */
22:08:09 <esolangs> [[SillyCon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106805&oldid=106804 * Kwikrick * (+76) /* Language */
22:09:53 <esolangs> [[SillyCon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106806&oldid=106805 * Kwikrick * (+12) /* Language */
22:51:42 <esolangs> [[SillyCon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106807&oldid=106806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* External resources */ Category
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01:07:36 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106808&oldid=106803 * Proxxa * (+242) /* Reverse Cat */ Implement Reverse Cat with updated IO
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02:02:49 <GregorR> «if you could have been everybody. why not oerjan, elliott, ais or fizzy? wait fizzy is here» Aww man, I was away from this channel for so long I don't even get listed among the old guard :'(
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05:39:07 <int-e> GregorR: you have been absent for a long time indeed
05:39:30 <int-e> `? gregorr
05:39:33 <HackEso> gregorr? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:40:00 <int-e> Hah. You left before "everybody" got a wisdom entry even.
05:42:27 <int-e> `learn GregorR is a recovering absentee. He's known for his hack ego and hat tricks.
05:42:31 <HackEso> Learned 'gregorr': GregorR is a recovering absentee. He's known for his hack ego and hat tricks.
05:53:07 <Sgeo> ChatGPT actually taught me some math. I was asking it about division by 0 in real, extended real, and projectively extended reals, and it answered correctly for two of the three (for extended reals it claimed 1/0 is positive infinity. I was able to get it to see its error). But it mentioned the projectively-extended reals as a "one-point compactification", which I hadn't heard of before, and as far as I can tell it's correct
05:53:39 <int-e> it is
05:54:19 <int-e> though topology will largely not care about the ring structure you started out with.
05:55:01 <Sgeo> https://sharegpt.com/c/7z2BDJg an earlier conversation, https://sharegpt.com/c/LgeDLSy this one
06:22:28 <int-e> Maybe that is actually a use for ChatGPT... finding adjacent keywords to a topic.
06:23:15 <int-e> But the substance of statements when it comes to math and hard sciences... meh, I'm less convinced there.
06:23:48 <int-e> . o O ( Do your own research. )
06:25:29 <int-e> (That innocent phrase has been totally destroyed by cryptocrap.)
06:26:36 <Sgeo> It's bad at substance in general. Only useful if you're knowledgeable and attentive enough to spot mistakes or at least double check, or if factual accuracy isn't important (e.g. fiction)
07:00:31 <int-e> But I'm afraid that it's getting good enough to replace TV experts.
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07:59:18 <esolangs> [[SillyCon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106809&oldid=106807 * Kwikrick * (-122) /* Implementation */
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08:51:34 <shachaf> ChatGPT taught me a bunch of maths, but unfortunately everything it said was nonsense so I had to unlearn it.
08:54:07 <FireFly> `? FireFly
08:54:10 <HackEso> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. It's also a room whose gimmick is that it gets darker as you kill the enemies.
08:54:35 <FireFly> heh, I don't even know what the latter is a reference to
08:55:17 <int-e> `hwrl firefly
08:55:19 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/firefly
09:01:02 <int-e> FireFly: I don't know; https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Firefly_Room quite possibly.
09:03:08 <int-e> (maybe b_jonas remembers)
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09:12:06 <b_jonas> int-e: probably the firefly room from Super Metroid. it has a zig-zag path in its upper part and a spike floor in the lower part with an e-tank, plus fireflee enemies, and as you kill the fireflees the tile layer gets darker and darker so if you kill them all it's all black and you have to remember the layout to get up
09:12:18 <FireFly> o
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09:14:04 <b_jonas> it's notable mostly because of hellruns (lower Norfair without Varia suit) in Super Metroid randomizers, because it's a room that's in lower norfair but not heated, is close to a save location, you can farm the firefleas for power bombs of which you need a lot because they're often the bottleneck for crystal flashes and you need 6 extra to exit lower norfair (if you don't have bombs or screw attack)
09:14:23 <b_jonas> and also sometimes gives you the vanilla e-tank to quickly recharge your health
09:14:41 <b_jonas> (and it's on the path that you have to follow anyway)
09:16:14 <b_jonas> the fireflea enemies are relatively harmless so the room isn't too dangerous; they appear elsewhere too but it's only in this one room where they cause darkening, so that's really a property of the room, not the monster
09:19:44 <b_jonas> also apparently I got the whole name thing wrong: https://wiki.supermetroid.run/Lower_Norfair_Fireflea_Room says the enemies are called fireflea and the room is called lower norfair fireflea room
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09:23:17 <int-e> Fly, flea! Flee, fly!
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09:42:31 <b_jonas> if they're called firefleas that explains why you couldn't easily find this by searching for fireflies
09:50:06 <int-e> the spell chequer will not save you this time
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10:55:15 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106810&oldid=106766 * LyricLy * (+3) value > integer
10:58:59 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106811&oldid=106810 * LyricLy * (+43) Improve select docs
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11:02:41 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106812&oldid=106811 * LyricLy * (+17) Don't show my list as a link
11:03:58 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106813&oldid=106812 * LyricLy * (+26) first -> bottommost
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11:20:26 <wib_jonas> int-e: it doesn't save *you*. it does save me, if I search for "firefly room super metroid" then google spell corrects it to "fireflea room super metroid"
11:21:05 <int-e> ah
11:21:23 <wib_jonas> if you don't know that it's about super metroid then it doesn't help
11:24:09 <wib_jonas> oh no, this spammer is using a malformed email address. how am I supposed to reply to them now about the important business opportunity?
11:24:19 <wib_jonas> malformed email address in the From field that is
11:25:13 <int-e> reply-to? mailto: link in body?
11:28:23 <esolangs> [[X7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106814&oldid=106813 * LyricLy * (+12) Get it right
11:34:08 <wib_jonas> no reply-to, but I got two other spam mails from what seem like the same spammer
11:34:21 <wib_jonas> with non-malformed From: addresses
11:35:40 <wib_jonas> > From: "=?UTF-8?B?TmFmaXVyIFJhaG1hbsKg?= <nafiur"@towerfreight.com
11:35:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:49: error: parse error on input ‘@’
11:43:08 <int-e> Hah
11:43:42 <int-e> I guess somebody scraped *real* email addresses and split them at the `@`, and used the whole prefix as a would-be local part?
11:44:03 <int-e> And this was `Nafiur Rahman <nafiur@...>`
11:44:16 <int-e> `` base64 -d <<<TmFmaXVyIFJhaG1hbsKg
11:44:18 <HackEso> Nafiur Rahman 
11:57:41 <wib_jonas> int-e: that doesn't explain the lack of > at the end
11:58:55 <wib_jonas> ok, I guess that could be a quirk of parsing incorrectly
11:59:36 <wib_jonas> but still the double quotes are odd
12:17:53 <wib_jonas> hehehe. so RFC 2047 defines this =?charset?X?...?= style quoting that's used in email headers. you encode strings like that, where charset is the name of a character set, X is the letter B for base64 encoding or Q for a variant of mime-quoted-printable encoding (variant because underscore represent space). each encoded word from the =? to the ?=
12:17:53 <wib_jonas> inclusive must be at most 75 bytes long, if you want to encode longer text you break to multiple such sequences. BUT the RFC also says that if the charset isn't single-byte one but mode-switching then you must add shift sequences to return to the initial shift state at the end of each encoded part. that means if a character set uses very long shift
12:17:54 <wib_jonas> sequences (and possibly a long name) then you might not be able to use it with RFC 2047 encoding.
12:24:03 <wib_jonas> this seems to be just a theoretical consideration, there probably isn't an actual charset that would cause this problem
12:35:14 <wib_jonas> even if it doesn't make encoding impossible, it does sound like a requirement that's hard in practice. generic encoders do sometimes have a flush or similar function to force reset the character set, but how do you know when to call that to get the possibly variant-quoted-printable escaped output to fit a given number of bytes?
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13:52:45 <esolangs> [[Wasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106815&oldid=95139 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+158) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the WASM programming language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
13:54:47 <esolangs> [[Wasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106816&oldid=106815 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-3) Rectified the mnemonic for the If command terminator, imputed to be incorrect, from EndWhile to EndIf.
14:01:22 <esolangs> [[Wasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106817&oldid=106816 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+407) Introduced an examples section compact of two initial members, the first being an infinitely repeating cat program, the second a truth-machine.
14:06:09 <esolangs> [[Wasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106818&oldid=106817 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1743) Added a Hello World! program as a third example.
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14:10:23 <esolangs> [[Wasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106819&oldid=106818 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+636) Improved the instruction table's formatting and amended a few orthographic mistakes.
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17:30:41 <esolangs> [[User:Orisphera/Completeness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106820&oldid=105966 * Orisphera * (+20) /* What is a programming language? */
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17:47:33 <zzo38> `? TRON code
17:47:36 <HackEso> TRON code? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:48:13 <zzo38> `? Free Hero Mesh
17:48:15 <HackEso> Free Hero Mesh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:05:47 <esolangs> [[User:Orisphera/Completeness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106821&oldid=106820 * Orisphera * (+6) /* Completeness by halting */
18:06:46 <esolangs> [[User:Orisphera/Completeness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106822&oldid=106821 * Orisphera * (+59) /* Full completeness */
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18:31:46 <GregorR> int-e: I'm presumably in HackEso as Gregor, since that's the nick I had on Freenode.
18:31:50 <GregorR> `? Gregor
18:31:52 <HackEso> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
18:31:57 <GregorR> That's me!
18:34:37 <esolangs> [[S l o w]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106823&oldid=84940 * Tux1 * (+226)
19:04:22 <FireFly> forty cakes :o
19:04:36 <FireFly> `pwd
19:04:37 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/tmp
19:04:57 <FireFly> `"
19:04:58 <HackEso> 1/2:613) <oerjan> shachaf: wait, _you_ are in northumberland? <shachaf> No. <oerjan> whew <oerjan> we don't have room for more esolangers there. <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, *you* are in Northumberland? <oerjan> no <shachaf> Whew. <shachaf> We don't have room for more esolangers there. \ 903) <elliott> well what is time <elliott> imo: an illusion [...] <Taneb> elliott, I think it's more like a burrito <Taneb> If you have too much of time y
19:10:30 <esolangs> [[Tupilled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106824&oldid=106808 * Ashli Katt * (+274)
19:12:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Proman3419 * New user account
19:21:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106825&oldid=106775 * Proman3419 * (+187) /* Introductions */
19:29:11 <esolangs> [[GoDDS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106826 * Proman3419 * (+266) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Graph of Distributed Data Structures |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:Proman3419 Herdran]], |majorimpl=[https://github.com/proman3419/Graph-of-Distributed-Data-Structures Java] |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |files=<code>.godds</code> }}"
19:39:31 <esolangs> [[GoDDS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106827&oldid=106826 * Proman3419 * (+226)
19:40:11 <esolangs> [[GoDDS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106828&oldid=106827 * Proman3419 * (+5)
19:43:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Proman3419 * moved [[GoDDS]] to [[GoDDS - Graph of Distributed Data Structures]]: Rename to full name
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19:53:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Proman3419 * uploaded "[[File:Fizz buzz 1.jpg]]"
19:59:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Proman3419 * uploaded "[[File:Fizz buzz 2.jpg]]"
20:09:31 <esolangs> [[GoDDS - Graph of Distributed Data Structures]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106833&oldid=106829 * Proman3419 * (+2881)
20:09:36 <esolangs> [[S l o w]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106834&oldid=106823 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* External resources */ Category
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20:11:27 <esolangs> [[GoDDS - Graph of Distributed Data Structures]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106835&oldid=106833 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) Stub, categories
20:19:26 <esolangs> [[GoDDS - Graph of Distributed Data Structures]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106836&oldid=106835 * Proman3419 * (+293)
20:21:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106837&oldid=106786 * Proman3419 * (+51) Added GoDDS - Graph of Distributed Data Structures
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21:35:37 <int-e> `? gregor
21:35:39 <HackEso> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
21:39:46 <int-e> GregorR: mystifying
21:39:57 <int-e> (The entry, not the nick change)
21:41:10 <int-e> `? greg
21:41:12 <HackEso> greg? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:48:01 <b_jonas> wait, is that the same Gregor under a different name?
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21:58:18 <int-e> b_jonas: yes, see log (3 1/2 hours ago)
22:06:38 <b_jonas> ``` \? wib_jonas; \? wob_jonas # yeah, two entries happens
22:06:41 <HackEso> wib_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks. \ wob_jonas? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:07:04 <b_jonas> ``` for x in wib_jonas; do \? "$x"; done
22:07:06 <HackEso> wib_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
22:07:11 <b_jonas> ``` for x in oren \\oren\\; do \? "$x"; done
22:07:14 <HackEso> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He's finally got the hang of toycj tuping. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science. \ \oren\ is an optical attempt to improve upon oren. The only thing it actually improved was name recognizability
22:07:35 <b_jonas> there are probably mreo pairs
22:42:51 <FireFly> `? taneb
22:42:52 <HackEso> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
22:46:27 <b_jonas> `? people who taneb is not
22:46:29 <HackEso> Taneb is not elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first, or anyone older than Queen Elizabeth the Second. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
22:47:50 <b_jonas> .oO(that doesn't deny that he's Satoshi Nakamoto)
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04:38:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Footsteps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106838&oldid=105580 * Ais523 * (+615) /* Start 0 */ reply to [[User:Salpynx]]
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08:18:06 <esolangs> [[User:Orisphera/Completeness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106839&oldid=106822 * Orisphera * (+39) /* What is a programming language? */
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15:40:40 <int-e> TIL that unproductive endless loops like `for (;;) {}` are UB in C++ :-/
15:43:35 <FireFly> in general? I know that having main diverge is UB in C++ but I thought it might be specific to main somehow
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15:46:00 <int-e> FireFly: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/memory_model includes a "progress guarantee" and LLVM has started to take advantage of it, leading to https://karlsruhe-social.de/system/cache/media_attachments/files/109/856/328/357/566/082/original/abdcd25332d18d5a.png (confirmed with versions 13.x and 14.x)
15:47:44 <int-e> (seen on ##rust-offtopic)
15:54:09 <FireFly> *nod*
15:59:42 <fizzie> There's a similar C thing (since C11) but it's restricted to loops that have a non-constant controlling expression.
16:01:32 <fizzie> C11 6.8.5p6: "An iteration statement whose controlling expression is not a constant expression, that performs no input/output operations, does not access volatile objects, and performs no synchronization or atomic operations in its body, controlling expression, or (in the case of a `for` statement) its /expression-3/, may be assumed by the implementation to terminate."
16:01:54 <fizzie> Inherited from one of those C <-> C++ harmonization efforts, I believe.
16:02:32 <fizzie> https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1349.htm "Non-terminating loops"
16:03:51 <fizzie> AIUI the "-- controlling expression is not a constant expression --" part was added in committee deliberations because of the body of existing C code that used `for (;;);` as a "should not be reached, and execution should not continue if reached" construct.
16:07:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vodracseck * New user account
16:12:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106840&oldid=106825 * Vodracseck * (+74) /* Introductions */
16:19:28 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, that does look weird. I'd not be surprised if the while(1); loop could end in finite time, since that's a look with no side effects so it can be optimized away to nothing. but I don't see how you'd enter the other function. it can't be UB caused by the missing return statement in main because this is C++ code, not C, and C++ has an implicit return 0 at the end of main.
16:24:05 <b_jonas> are you saying that the while(1); loop can be optimized to unreachable somehow instead of just optimized to a nop?
16:27:02 <FireFly> how would the loop ned in finite time?
16:27:04 <FireFly> end*
16:28:33 <b_jonas> FireFly: it can't really, but since it never causes side effects and never changes any value that can be observed from the outside, I assume the compiler can optimize it as if it ended in finite time and did nothign
16:28:40 <b_jonas> I don't think it can optimize it to UB
16:31:11 <b_jonas> but no, I can't cite the standard for this
16:31:18 <b_jonas> it's just how I think it might work
16:31:50 <b_jonas> but maybe that's not right
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16:32:04 <b_jonas> yeah, it shouldn't be optimized to a nop
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16:33:03 <FireFly> I've heard the thing about divergence being explicitly UB, and I think a compiler replacing an infinite loop without side-effect with a nop def woludn't be fine (well uh, I guess it would be as a consequence when it's UB, but like, just indirectly in that it could do anything)
16:33:13 <FireFly> but I don't really speak C++ much
16:33:26 <b_jonas> imagine a loop that searches for a counterexample to the Goldbach conjecture (or a contradiction in ZF or whatever), and then the statement after the loop just prints "found" without printing any more specific info about the loop. presumably you don't want that loop to be optimized away to nop, so this infinite loop shouldn't be either
16:34:29 <b_jonas> (of course that loop might be hard to write in a way that the compiler can prove it has no side-effect, since a naive implementation will have malloc call sbrk or mmap, but that's just a technical problem, the compiler can know enough about malloc to know that those aren't real side effects)
16:35:52 <b_jonas> (I think both C++ and rust folks are working on that you can eventually heap-allocate from compile-time code)
16:36:41 <b_jonas> (and besides, you can just avoid the malloc by searching for a counterexample that fits a gigabyte of pre-allocated memory, presumably the compiler won't be smart enough to be able to prove that that doesn't terminate)
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22:02:27 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106841&oldid=100412 * 1hals * (+2371) Clarify variables and operation types
22:05:11 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106842&oldid=106841 * 1hals * (+85) /* Move statement */
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22:09:48 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106843&oldid=106842 * 1hals * (+316) re-organize the operators section
22:10:38 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106844&oldid=106843 * 1hals * (-293) remove the redundant special features section
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22:31:55 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106845&oldid=106844 * 1hals * (+598) Add untested Fibonacci example
22:34:20 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106846&oldid=106845 * 1hals * (+210)
22:38:29 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106847&oldid=106846 * 1hals * (+24) /* Variables */
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23:21:10 <int-e> b_jonas: the crazy thing is that it discards the code *after* the loop as unreachable, but also discards the loop.
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02:23:37 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106848&oldid=106847 * 1hals * (-119) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
02:28:41 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106849&oldid=106848 * 1hals * (+14) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
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03:22:28 <esolangs> [[Abc!?/Python Compiler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106850 * 1hals * (+11690) Upload a compiler for Abc!?
03:24:21 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106851&oldid=106849 * 1hals * (+88) Add a link to my implementation
03:35:03 <esolangs> [[Abc!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106852&oldid=106851 * 1hals * (+26) language is implemented
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09:54:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tesolang * New user account
10:12:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:LRONETWO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106853 * Pro465 * (+141) ask question
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11:19:25 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106854&oldid=106659 * Orisphera * (+208) /* Based on dimensions */
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01:24:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HyperCodec * New user account
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08:00:43 <esolangs> [[Capsule]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106855&oldid=106733 * Leol22 * (+12) still working on this
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08:06:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:NameABC123.2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106856&oldid=104809 * NameABC123.2 * (+92)
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11:12:08 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck Encoded Concatenative Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106857&oldid=106703 * LyricLy * (+17)
11:18:43 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck Encoded Concatenative Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106858&oldid=106857 * LyricLy * (+0)
11:35:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106859&oldid=106543 * JohnBCoraline * (+16) /* Other Other stuff */
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12:50:49 <esolangs> [[Listack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106860&oldid=106727 * McChuck * (+116) /* Features */
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15:28:56 <esolangs> [[Loss, v.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106861 * Threesodas * (+452) Created page with "{{DISPLAYTITLE:Loss, v.}} '''Loss''' is a language that is currently in its most stable version, It is no longer being updated. = Syntax = <code>I</code> prints <code>I</code><br> <code>II</code> prints <code>II</code><br> <code>II</c
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17:50:54 <esolangs> [[DONT YOU LECTURE ME WITH YOUR THIRTY DOLLAR LANGUAGE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106862&oldid=100649 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
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18:29:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106863&oldid=95510 * Peter * (+253)
18:29:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106864&oldid=106863 * Peter * (+2) /* pixeLang */
18:29:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106865&oldid=106864 * Peter * (+11) /* pixeLang */
18:35:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106866&oldid=106865 * Peter * (+78)
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05:45:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oreiboon * New user account
05:48:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106867&oldid=106840 * Oreiboon * (+173)
06:16:41 <esolangs> [[User:Oreiboon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106868 * Oreiboon * (+215) Created page with "Hiya, I'm oreiboon, I'm a hobbyist developer, and I sometimes make things for fun. Current esolangs: [[CTELang]] - A language made for Click to Eleven (a clone of click to ten) to allow for modding. thats kinda it"
06:17:23 <esolangs> [[User:Oreiboon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106869&oldid=106868 * Oreiboon * (+1)
07:22:19 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106870 * Oreiboon * (+6886) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=CTELang |author=[[User:Oreiboon|oreiboon]] |paradigms=[[Category:Imperative_paradigm|imperative]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |majorimpl=Unavailable |files=<code>.cttm</code> }} ==Overview
07:24:05 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106871&oldid=106870 * Oreiboon * (+48)
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07:53:39 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106872&oldid=106871 * Oreiboon * (+622)
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09:14:43 <int-e> `"
09:14:45 <HackEso> 1/1:1287) <shachaf> ais523: Hmm, I think the wisdom database is like the quotes file, except it's for when people think they're being funny, rather than when other people think they're funny. \ 768) <fungot> olsner: over the undertow! under the overpass! around the future and not just fnord for example. it's just the syntax
09:16:34 <olsner> `" olsner
09:16:36 <HackEso> 1/1:343) <Sgeo> I used to be more irritated by alcohol <olsner> Sgeo: you're not supposed to put it in your eyes \ 121) <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
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14:58:26 <esolangs> [[Unarian]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106873&oldid=101678 * Crb233 * (+2205) Updated this page to match the specification on Github
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16:15:09 <olsner> `" sed
16:15:12 <HackEso> 1/1:1265) <Phantom_Hoover> man i just realised esolangs are subject to the inverse wadler's law <Phantom_Hoover> nobody ever cares about lexical syntax, let alone comments \ 833) <zzo38> If you write in the text using Unicode then how are you supposed to know if you mean seraphim have seven eyes or do they have ten?
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17:16:05 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106874&oldid=106872 * Oreiboon * (-20) /* Predefined variables */
17:18:39 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106875&oldid=106874 * Oreiboon * (+41) /* Overview */
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18:45:09 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106876&oldid=106875 * Oreiboon * (+19)
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21:04:01 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106877&oldid=106876 * Oreiboon * (+7)
21:10:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106878&oldid=106867 * Lasermtv * (+47) /* Introductions */
21:11:15 <esolangs> [[CAESAR\]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106879 * Lasermtv * (+4135) esolang
21:32:28 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106880&oldid=106877 * Oreiboon * (+190)
21:49:52 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106881&oldid=106880 * Oreiboon * (+42) /* Text/Log */
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21:55:17 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106882&oldid=106881 * Oreiboon * (+16)
21:56:54 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106883&oldid=106882 * Oreiboon * (+176) /* Display Counter */
22:00:03 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106884&oldid=106883 * Oreiboon * (+10) /* Display Counter */
22:00:49 <esolangs> [[CTELang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106885&oldid=106884 * Oreiboon * (-9)
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23:37:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheFloatingPixel * New user account
23:42:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106886&oldid=106878 * TheFloatingPixel * (+166)
00:22:53 <esolangs> [[SOAP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106887&oldid=103113 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+568) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the SOAP programming language on GitHub and changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
00:24:19 <esolangs> [[SOAP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106888&oldid=106887 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1902) Added a restricted cat program as a further example.
00:27:15 <esolangs> [[SOAP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106889&oldid=106888 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+67) Improved the code fragments' formatting.
00:41:00 <esolangs> [[SOAP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106890&oldid=106889 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1327) Improved the instruction table's formatting.
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04:35:43 <esolangs> [[User:Crb233]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106891 * Crb233 * (+132) Created page with "Hi, I'm crb233, creator of [[Unarian]] and various other programming languages that aren't as well documented or publicly available."
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08:01:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Oreiboon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106892 * Oreiboon * (+494) Created page with "==Overview== this is for discussion of anything related to me. if you want to start a conversation, create a subcategory under '''Topics''', and be sure to sign any comment you make. ===Topics=== ==Example== This is an example conversation. ~~~ <br/> This is
08:02:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Oreiboon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106893&oldid=106892 * Oreiboon * (-430)
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09:46:02 <esolangs> [[8BallScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106894&oldid=103410 * TheFloatingPixel * (+8) Corrected the refimpl link, the previous one resulted in an 404.
09:48:18 <esolangs> [[``]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106895 * Xyzzy * (+70) Created page with "{{Stub}} {{WIP}} '''``''' is a programming language inspired by [[`]]."
09:58:14 <esolangs> [[``]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106896&oldid=106895 * Xyzzy * (+550)
09:59:30 <esolangs> [[User:Xyzzy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106897&oldid=106259 * Xyzzy * (+118)
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11:15:35 <esolangs> [[``]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106898&oldid=106896 * Xyzzy * (+188)
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11:37:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LolloDev5123 * New user account
11:39:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106899&oldid=106886 * LolloDev5123 * (+107) /* Introductions */
11:39:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106900&oldid=106899 * LolloDev5123 * (+99) /* Introductions */
11:58:37 <esolangs> [[Newbiefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106901&oldid=102402 * LyricLy * (+3569) The language is Turing-complete
11:59:41 <esolangs> [[Newbiefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106902&oldid=106901 * LyricLy * (-1) This isn't Markdown
12:27:56 <esolangs> [[P"]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106903 * Xyzzy * (+21) Redirected page to [[P]]
12:32:12 <esolangs> [[``]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106904&oldid=106898 * Xyzzy * (+96)
12:56:42 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106905 * LolloDev5123 * (+337) Created page with "Indefinite is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User: LolloDev5123]]. This page is mainly a work in progress, and without any implementations, Indefinite is just an idea. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Functional Paradigm]] [[Category:Declarat
13:20:34 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106906&oldid=106905 * LolloDev5123 * (+3142)
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13:40:52 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106907&oldid=106906 * LolloDev5123 * (+2110)
13:42:35 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106908&oldid=106907 * LolloDev5123 * (+25)
13:43:09 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106909&oldid=106908 * LolloDev5123 * (+1)
13:52:51 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106910&oldid=106909 * LolloDev5123 * (+0)
13:59:18 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106911&oldid=106910 * LolloDev5123 * (+48)
14:05:09 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106912&oldid=106911 * LolloDev5123 * (+71)
14:08:20 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106913&oldid=106912 * LolloDev5123 * (-1)
14:12:00 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106914&oldid=106913 * LolloDev5123 * (+0)
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14:25:58 <esolangs> [[```]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106915 * Xyzzy * (+1523) Created page with "'''```''' is a extremely minimalistic programming language. It operates on cells, which can store unbounded numbers. <br> There is only a single command, but that command have multiple forms. {| class="wikitable" |+ Forms |- ! Form !! What it does |- | `<code>a</code>`#<code>
14:26:59 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106916&oldid=106914 * LolloDev5123 * (+247)
14:28:56 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106917&oldid=106916 * LolloDev5123 * (+18)
14:30:35 <esolangs> [[```]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106918&oldid=106915 * Xyzzy * (+350)
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14:51:57 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106919&oldid=106917 * LolloDev5123 * (-143)
15:01:46 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106920&oldid=106919 * LolloDev5123 * (+188)
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15:38:48 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106921&oldid=106920 * LolloDev5123 * (-28)
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16:31:45 <esolangs> [[CAESAR\]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106922&oldid=106879 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-180) Convert to wikitext, add categories
16:33:38 <esolangs> [[CAESAR\]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106923&oldid=106922 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-51) /* How does it work? */ Convert to wikitext
16:42:57 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106924&oldid=106921 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Operators */ Fix category
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19:05:09 <esolangs> [[```]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106925&oldid=106918 * Xyzzy * (+0)
19:05:23 <esolangs> [[```]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106926&oldid=106925 * Xyzzy * (-4)
19:06:29 <esolangs> [[```]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106927&oldid=106926 * Xyzzy * (+126)
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21:47:45 <esolangs> [[CAESAR\]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106928&oldid=106923 * Lasermtv * (+53)
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22:17:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stonks3141 * New user account
22:19:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106929&oldid=106900 * Stonks3141 * (+172) introduction
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03:59:37 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106930&oldid=105576 * Stonks3141 * (-49) Clean up Rust interpreter
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11:00:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106931&oldid=106837 * Andor ch * (+19) /* D */
11:01:11 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106932 * Andor ch * (+32) Created page with "== design_coder (designcoder) =="
11:10:24 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106933&oldid=106932 * Andor ch * (+5051) /* design_coder (designcoder) */
11:13:03 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106934&oldid=106933 * Andor ch * (+93)
11:13:38 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106935&oldid=106934 * Andor ch * (+2)
11:14:59 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106936&oldid=106935 * Andor ch * (+2)
11:16:36 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106937&oldid=106936 * Andor ch * (+59)
11:17:07 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106938&oldid=106937 * Andor ch * (-6)
11:18:11 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106939&oldid=106938 * Andor ch * (+4)
11:19:29 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106940&oldid=106939 * Andor ch * (+2)
11:19:49 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106941&oldid=106940 * Andor ch * (+23)
11:20:07 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106942&oldid=106941 * Andor ch * (-2875)
11:22:22 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106943&oldid=106942 * Andor ch * (+637)
11:25:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Rule.png]]"
11:25:54 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106945&oldid=106943 * Andor ch * (+23)
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11:28:08 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106946&oldid=106945 * Andor ch * (+291)
11:29:00 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106947&oldid=106946 * Andor ch * (+5) /* =Rules */
11:29:24 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106948&oldid=106947 * Andor ch * (+1)
11:30:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Possibilities.png]]"
11:31:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Condcommand.png]]"
11:31:42 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106951&oldid=106948 * Andor ch * (+66)
11:33:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Gridus.png]]"
11:36:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Designcoding.png]]"
11:36:23 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106954&oldid=106951 * Andor ch * (-28)
11:39:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Gridders.png]]"
11:39:12 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106956&oldid=106954 * Andor ch * (+29)
11:41:13 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106957&oldid=106956 * Andor ch * (+516)
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11:44:18 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106958&oldid=106957 * Andor ch * (+347)
11:44:36 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106959&oldid=106958 * Andor ch * (+1) /* =Functions */
11:46:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Functionzhoh.png]]"
11:46:56 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106961&oldid=106959 * Andor ch * (+249)
11:47:38 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106962&oldid=106961 * Andor ch * (+5)
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16:32:04 <esolangs> [[MoonScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106971&oldid=105050 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+81) Categories
16:32:30 <esolangs> [[MoonScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106972&oldid=106971 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) Category
16:46:31 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106973&oldid=106970 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) Fix display title
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20:39:51 <esolangs> [[NNYRLD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106974&oldid=105164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Categories
20:48:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106975&oldid=106929 * Oreiboon * (+20)
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21:36:33 <esolangs> [[User:Mercerenies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106976&oldid=78830 * Mercerenies * (+49)
21:36:53 <esolangs> [[User:Mercerenies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106977&oldid=106976 * Mercerenies * (+0)
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22:37:52 <esolangs> [[OwoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106978&oldid=99035 * Finianb1 * (-6)
23:14:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kjpg * New user account
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08:31:38 <esolangs> [[User:Leol22]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106979 * Leol22 * (+98) made stuff
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15:33:16 <wib_jonas> `olist 1275
15:33:18 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1275.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:11:47 <esolangs> [[Electra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106980&oldid=106530 * DolphyWind * (-8)
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20:12:11 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106981&oldid=106924 * LolloDev5123 * (+327)
20:16:06 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106982&oldid=106981 * LolloDev5123 * (+0)
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22:58:14 <esolangs> [[Indefinite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106983&oldid=106982 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */ Fix category
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14:33:09 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106984&oldid=89668 * RocketRace * (+136) Add more impls
14:34:52 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106985&oldid=106984 * RocketRace * (+153) Rev. 1.2
14:44:26 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106986&oldid=106985 * RocketRace * (+86) Maze generator
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19:10:05 <esolangs> [[WTFCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106987&oldid=106722 * Asicosilomu * (+3631) Update docs to 1.3.6 & minor grammar fixes
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22:03:49 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106988&oldid=106930 * Zzo38 * (+877) +Uxn
22:33:47 <zzo38> Should Uxn be mentioned in esolang wiki?
22:43:01 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106989 * LolloDev5123 * (+2793) Created page with " (or Markovskiy) is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User: LolloDev5123]] designed to operate using a [[Markov algorithm]]. In , programs consist of a series of "states" that are transformed by a set of rules. == Overview == programs consist of a series
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23:13:36 <esolangs> [[Markovskiy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106990 * LolloDev5123 * (+34) Redirected page to [[]]
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00:18:57 <b_jonas> I should claim that on the streets there are lots of sculptures of Saint Edad, the patron saint of symmetric cryptography, we just don't know where they are because the iconographic tradition demands that Saint Edad is depicted indistinguishable from random sculptures by any practical attack.
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10:16:21 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106991&oldid=106029 * Mujk * (+150)
10:19:39 <esolangs> [[User:Mujk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106992&oldid=106023 * Mujk * (+156)
10:19:57 <esolangs> [[User:Mujk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106993&oldid=106992 * Mujk * (-4)
10:21:19 <esolangs> [[User:Mujk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106994&oldid=106993 * Mujk * (+4)
10:22:03 <esolangs> [[User:Mujk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106995&oldid=106994 * Mujk * (+9)
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10:58:31 <esolangs> [[Listack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106996&oldid=106860 * McChuck * (+33) /* Listack: A symmetric, stackless, stack-based, concatenative language */
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11:19:05 <esolangs> [[Rings]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106997&oldid=102831 * Ardemit * (-252) Minor edits
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12:48:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=106998&oldid=106975 * Tesolang * (+142) /* Introductions */
12:51:37 <esolangs> [[User:Tesolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=106999 * Tesolang * (+61) uhhh
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12:58:30 <Tesolang> hi
13:03:41 <esolangs> [[&-/]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107000 * Tesolang * (+284) expand this page please, i am too lazy to expand it myself
13:04:26 <Tesolang> this is my esolang
13:05:33 <Tesolang> anyone wanna chat?
13:06:57 -!- Tesolang has set topic: Welcome to the twentieth international hub of esoteric programming language analysis, adoption, anniversary, and kittens! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/.
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13:07:15 <Tesolang> oh, bye perl
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13:07:21 <Tesolang> bye simcop
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13:08:51 <int-e> `? chat
13:08:53 <HackEso> chat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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13:14:05 <Tesolang> e
13:18:06 <Tesolang> who wants to chat?
13:21:44 <esolangs> [[&-/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107001&oldid=107000 * Tesolang * (+19) added category
13:27:04 <Tesolang> i added my esolang page to the 2023 category
13:31:03 <esolangs> [[User:Tesolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107002&oldid=106999 * Tesolang * (+22) added my esolangs
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13:32:52 <Tesolang> i added my esolangs to my user page
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13:36:38 <Tesolang> btw you pronounce &-/ as "Ampinash"
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14:07:58 <Tesolang> who wants to chat?
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14:15:56 <Tesolang> bye
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14:44:02 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107003&oldid=106991 * Mujk * (-28)
14:44:19 <esolangs> [[User:Mujk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107004&oldid=106995 * Mujk * (-29)
14:54:20 <esolangs> [[&-/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107005&oldid=107001 * Tesolang * (-18) added new commands
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15:30:07 <wib_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-6oM5xssY nice simple bot loop between two wisdom bots, each with a wisdom that triggers the other bot to ask about that wisdom
15:34:27 <int-e> Well, I did have the right idea.
15:36:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sannidhya127 * New user account
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16:04:59 <esolangs> [[&-/]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107006&oldid=107005 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+114) Categories
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17:54:19 <esolangs> [[WTFCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107007&oldid=106987 * Asicosilomu * (+5164) Enter a short summary [Alt+Shift+b]
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18:26:41 <esolangs> [[Electra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107008&oldid=106980 * DolphyWind * (-1)
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21:52:45 <esolangs> [[Papel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107009 * LolloDev5123 * (+3268) Created page with "PAPEL (Particle Automata Programming Ephemeral Language) is a stack-based [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User: LolloDev5123]] intended to be stored on paper using hole punches of different shapes. == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" !Instructio
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02:57:37 <esolangs> [[User:SpaceByte@Vandlen't]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107010 * SpaceByte * (+45) Creating new user page.
02:59:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * SpaceByte * moved [[User:SpaceByte@Vandlen't]] to [[User:Vandlen't]]: wrong user. also gonna move the bot to it's own account
03:00:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vandlen't * New user account
03:07:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107013&oldid=106998 * Vandlen't * (+266)
03:07:48 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107014&oldid=107011 * Vandlen't * (+36)
03:25:34 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107015&oldid=107014 * Vandlen't * (+82) Changed page source.
03:26:09 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107016&oldid=107015 * Vandlen't * (+82) Changed page source.
03:30:15 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107017&oldid=107016 * Vandlen't * (+82) Changed page source.
03:31:47 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107018&oldid=107017 * Vandlen't * (+82) Changed page source.
03:33:05 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107019&oldid=107018 * Vandlen't * (+82) Changed page source.
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03:35:48 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107020&oldid=107019 * Vandlen't * (+82) Changed page source.
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03:41:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107021&oldid=24504 * Vandlen't * (+393)
03:41:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107022&oldid=107021 * Vandlen't * (+7)
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05:30:00 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107023&oldid=107020 * SpaceByte * (-24)
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10:03:38 <int-e> what the zork is this, https://www.gog.com/en/game/colossal_cave
10:11:40 <shachaf> Hmm, it's no Zork: Grand Inquisitor.
10:12:09 <int-e> I played that.
10:12:20 <int-e> It was weird.
10:12:29 <int-e> Enjoyable, but weird.
10:14:26 <int-e> I have it on, hmm, CD-ROM, I think. Not boxed, just a CD case.
10:15:45 <int-e> (It's always hard to be sure whether it's CD-ROM or DVD; they look the same.)
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10:30:27 <wib_jonas> int-e: (cdrskin -minfo) with libburn installed
10:33:02 <int-e> wib_jonas: I don't have the physical media at hand, it's buried in a box nearby.
10:34:11 <int-e> Otherwise I'd probably know... there's usually a logo on the disk
10:34:26 <int-e> (and the case too)
10:34:55 <wib_jonas> ah yes, they're certainly hard to distinguish that way
10:36:40 <wib_jonas> "usually a logo on the disk" => I think the ones that you can print on with a printer and the ones that you can kind of print on with a DVD burner if you flip the disk don't have a logo. they may still have some text on the plastic just closer to the center from where the metal film ends, but I'm not sure you can interpret that text.
10:38:44 <shachaf> Man, the good old days when compact discs were how you transferred data.
10:39:40 <shachaf> Is the following true? If you have a systematic n+p erasure code, and you can recover all n data shards from any subset of n shards, then you can't recover any missing data shard from a subset smaller than n shards.
10:40:23 <int-e> wib_jonas: Yeah, I realize that the logo is kind of optional and could be a lie. But somehow, original media tend to both include a logo and not lie ;-)
10:40:45 <wib_jonas> what does "systematic" mean in that?
10:40:55 <int-e> There's probably some trademark protection to ensure that.
10:42:13 <wib_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasure_code#Near-optimal_erasure_codes suggests that without the systematic bit it's not true
10:42:58 <wib_jonas> oh, systematic means that some of the shards have the data split but without further transformed
10:43:03 <int-e> shachaf: that's obviously false? imagine that you have one of the direct-mapped shards
10:43:32 <wib_jonas> ah yes, int-e has a point\
10:43:49 <wib_jonas> it would have to be a secret-sharing code, which is kind of the opposite of systematic, for that to be true
10:43:58 <shachaf> I don't follow.
10:44:15 <int-e> shachaf: let's make this even more silly: imagine p = 0.
10:44:30 <shachaf> Then you certainly can't recover any missing data shard.
10:44:47 <int-e> ah, that's what you mean by "missing".
10:44:58 <shachaf> Right, I should have phrased that better.
10:45:14 <shachaf> Recover any data shard from a set of other shards that's smaller than n.
10:45:18 <int-e> I, uh, missed that word when reading.
10:45:40 <wib_jonas> you want to recover a full shard?
10:45:59 <wib_jonas> I think it's still not true in theory then, but may be true in practice
10:47:40 <wib_jonas> because if you make each shard just one bit, and take a set of shards that differs in just one bit from an invalid combination, then you can recover the bit on the shard where it differs from that invalid combination
10:47:57 <wib_jonas> but this isn't a complete proof because maybe you can't slice to single bits in such a code
10:48:28 <shachaf> Slicing to single bits limits you severely for erasure codes.
10:49:07 <int-e> shachaf: Yeah, it's true, by counting. If you have m+q < n shards, then you can fill that up to (n-q)+q = n shards filling in any values you like for the missing shards, and each of the resulting data has to correspond to data from some n original shards.
10:50:08 <int-e> "the missing shards" -- I mean the n-q-m originally missing shards that you're adding when filling up.
10:52:54 <shachaf> What are m and q here?
10:53:13 <int-e> the number of original and parity shards that survived erasure, respectively.
10:53:19 <int-e> m <= n, q <= p
10:54:21 <int-e> It's not really necessary to distinguish those, I guess... but it helped me to think about this.
10:54:35 <shachaf> Oh, got it.
10:55:55 <shachaf> I see the argument. That's pretty good!
10:56:00 <int-e> (Are you aware of a standard convention for naming those numbers?)
10:56:31 <shachaf> Specifically, I guess, imagine you could recover a data shard using n-1 other shards. Then you'd have n shards, which lets you recover everything.
10:56:38 <shachaf> But there should never be a situation where you can recover everything from n-1 shards.
10:57:42 <shachaf> (Or should there? I guess that still needs to be proved but it seems more straightforward.)
10:57:45 <int-e> Now that's just plain counting... B^(n-1) < B^n, where B = 2^b is the number of possible values per b-bit block.
10:58:04 <int-e> except for the useless case b = 0.
10:58:50 <shachaf> Right, I was imagining maybe some encodings let you recover all the data from n-1 shards, but that would be magic pigeonhole-violating compression.
10:58:50 <int-e> (You have a 0-bit block? Wait, don't tell me, I think it's this: )
10:59:27 <int-e> (What an amazing magical trick, amiright?)
10:59:58 <shachaf> I lost a (-∞)-bit block, can you figure out what its value was?
11:00:18 <wib_jonas> oh wait!
11:00:19 <int-e> I have trouble making sense of that.
11:00:48 <shachaf> I'm making up a number of bits for an uninhabited type.
11:01:04 <shachaf> I guess calling log(0) -∞ or something.
11:01:09 <shachaf> Anyway, thanks, this is great.
11:01:42 <int-e> Ah. So it doesn't make sense in a very formal, uh, sense.
11:01:44 <wib_jonas> shachaf: if it's not an optimal erasure code, then it will store a little bit less net data than you can fit on the required number of shards, right?
11:03:04 <int-e> https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/sense ...that desn't really help.
11:03:20 <shachaf> Not very formal. Also, I was lying, I didn't ever have an inhabitant of an uninhabited type. I wish!
11:03:23 <int-e> Ah, "meaning".
11:03:49 <int-e> It was a vacuous thought.
11:03:58 <shachaf> wib_jonas: That sounds reasonable.
11:05:11 <shachaf> People *do* make codes where you can recover some shards from a smaller set of other shards.
11:05:38 <shachaf> But I think they pay for that with needing extra shards in some other cases, for particular patterns of erasures. So you write out more data overall.
11:05:43 <int-e> That makes sense; some shards may be more important than others.
11:05:49 <shachaf> E.g. https://errorcorrectionzoo.org/c/locally_recoverable
11:06:03 <int-e> shachaf: And we've just proved that you do have to pay for that.
11:06:09 <shachaf> Yep.
11:07:27 <int-e> I mean one obvious thing you can do is to have an n+p and n'+p' code side by side. But in the worst case you only survive erasure of min(p, p') shards.
11:07:35 <shachaf> So a simple thing you can do is something like this 4+3 encoding matrix: [[1 1 0 0] [0 0 1 1] [a b c d]]
11:07:44 <int-e> I imagine that you can do better.
11:08:08 <int-e> that's an instance of that, isn't it? 1+1 side by side another 1+1
11:08:14 <int-e> +with
11:08:24 <int-e> maybe I misread
11:08:49 <int-e> Oh there's a parity row, assuming [a b c d] is [1 1 1 1]?
11:09:02 <wib_jonas> ok, now imagine a code that's very far from optimal so you'd never use it in practice. stores two bits net in six shards, each shard one bit. the encoding is 00=>001000, 01=>010100, 10=>100010, 11=>110001, the first two bits are the systematic ones. you can recover the data from any 4 shards, but not always from 3 shards eg. 0???00 is ambiguous.
11:09:03 <wib_jonas> but you can recover all shards from just 00????
11:09:05 <shachaf> I think you don't want it to be [1 1 1 1], you want it to be linearly independent.
11:09:50 <shachaf> I guess I should just say, you have w,x,y,z, and your shards are w+x, y+z, and aw+bx+cy+dz
11:09:57 <int-e> shachaf: I guess I'm not in the mood to think this through.
11:10:21 <shachaf> So if you lose one of the shards in the first or second group, you can recover with just the two others in that group.
11:10:41 <wib_jonas> also from ????00 you can recover the first shard but not the others
11:10:59 <shachaf> And if you lose one shard in each group as well as a parity shard, you can still recover.
11:12:04 <shachaf> But if you lose both shards in one group, and that group's parity shard or the global one, then you're stuck. So you can't recover from all 3-failures (as we know).
11:12:28 <wib_jonas> oh, that's a much better example!
11:12:43 <wib_jonas> because it works regardless the data, after choosing just which shards you haven't lost
11:12:45 <shachaf> Maybe the idea here is that a bunch of failures in one group are less likely than the same number of failures spread throughout your entire system.
11:14:26 <int-e> So there's a (probably hard) design problem here... given n + p devices with known failure probabilities p_i (1 <= i <= n+p), design an erasure code that maximizes the probability of full recovery.
11:14:46 <int-e> (not necessarily systematic)
11:15:18 <shachaf> Man, in the sort of context I'm normally thinking of this in, systematic codes are all that matters.
11:15:39 <shachaf> Though I'm not sure whether you actually get anything from being non-systematic?
11:15:43 <int-e> Though I think with linear codes we can always make them systematic if we want.
11:16:02 <shachaf> With linear codes certainly.
11:16:27 <wib_jonas> shachaf: that's usually the opposite of the normal assumption, which is that failures together in the same group are more likely than other failures. unless you have just four shards that form two groups in two ways so diagonal failures are less likely, but that doesn't work well for more shards.
11:16:32 <int-e> Are there any non-linear codes that people use in practice?
11:17:56 <int-e> Hmm. Maybe they're useful in contexts where errors are asymmmetric (so a 1 bit is more likely to be flipped than a 0 bit, or vice versa)
11:17:59 <shachaf> wib_jonas: Is that the normal assumption?
11:18:15 <shachaf> I think this grouping idea is probably common even with just regular erasure codes.
11:18:19 <int-e> The theory I know is all linear codes anyway.
11:19:14 <int-e> Except for the Hamming bound I guess, that's generic counting.
11:19:17 <shachaf> Say you're just duplicating your data: You choose two disks in your data center and write a copy of your data to each one.
11:19:24 <shachaf> And you have lots of little files so you do this everywhere.
11:19:40 <shachaf> Then if any pair of disks in your data center fails, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose some data.
11:20:28 <shachaf> Instead, you can say: Pre-group your disks into pairs in some arbitrary way (hopefully not correlated by manufacturing data or whatever). Then when you want to write a file, always write your two copies to the disks in one of the pairs.
11:20:44 <shachaf> Now the failure probability should be much lower, right?
11:21:01 <shachaf> But in the case of a failure you've lost a lot more data, and maybe the EV ends up being the same.
11:21:18 <int-e> Oh wait, I do know of some non-linear codes. Stuff like MFM, which is constrained by the frequency of bit flips. Totally different context, of course.
11:21:33 <shachaf> But that's good, you probably want to shift your EV into a tiny probability of catastrophic failiure, rather than high probability of a little bit of failure.
11:24:23 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't know this MFM thing.
11:25:42 <int-e> This, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_frequency_modulation
11:26:54 <shachaf> Notice that in this grouping scheme I described, you can lose a full 50% of your disks without losing any data. *And* you're not writing any more data than the theoretical optimal 1+1 erasure code.
11:27:55 <int-e> You're describing RAID 1
11:29:34 <shachaf> Sure, the 1+1 bit isn't important.
11:29:49 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I think so. the ECC on CD is designed to recover data from scratches on the metal film, that causes errors close to each other. or if you send data on a bunch of cables, then the backhoe that it summons will cut several adjacent cables. or if you send data by radio from a distant spacecraft then the noise source that masks the signal will
11:29:49 <wib_jonas> come in a spike burst that erases several bits adjacent in time.
11:29:49 <shachaf> You can group your disks into groups of 10 and use an 8+2 code or whatever.
11:30:40 <shachaf> wib_jonas: Right, that's fair, you do want to avoid those kinds of correlated failures. I was describing a thing where you pregroup your disks randomly to avoid that.
11:30:46 <int-e> Hmm, not scratches in the plastic?
11:31:16 <int-e> I thought the metal film was reasonably well protected... until the advent of super-cheap CD-R media.
11:31:33 <wib_jonas> shachaf: more importantly, if you have data on 300 hard disks, of which 100 are WD and 100 are Samsung and 100 are whatever the third brand is, then the 100 that's from one same model will have 50 failures and the other 200 will have 2 failures
11:31:46 <wib_jonas> int-e: I'm not sure.
11:32:08 <shachaf> wib_jonas: That sounds like an argument for constructing your groups with one of each, or something.
11:32:25 <shachaf> Then you can lose all your thirdbrand disks and still lose no data.
11:32:57 <wib_jonas> I mean this might not apply now when all the hard disks are made in one factory so the whole world's modern hard disks will fail together, but even so models might differ a bit
11:33:12 <int-e> (Hmm, I don't know what kind of material the writable part of CD-R media uses.)
11:34:36 <int-e> Technology... it's all elves and magic dust when you go deep enough.
11:35:03 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yeah, then it kind of depends on how you form the assumption. failure across your group is less likely than failure of two randomly chosen disks, so in that sense what you say is true. but I don't think that's the best way to model failures.
11:36:44 <wib_jonas> apparently the big manufacturers are WD, Seagate, Toshiba. not Samsung, they make solid-state drives.
11:39:11 <wib_jonas>  shouldn've known that, I specifically bought hard disks from all three manufacturers recently, and those three were already the brands.
11:39:33 <wib_jonas> but recently means 2020-11 so not that recent
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11:40:31 <shachaf> wib_jonas: Why not?
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11:43:16 <int-e> why do we still call them "drives"
11:44:20 <int-e> Actually I don't know the etymology of that in the first place.
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11:45:46 <int-e> Ah, it makes sense for FDD, it's the thing that makes the disk move. And that extends to HDD. But an SSD has nothing that has to be physically moved.
11:47:00 <wib_jonas> shachaf: you should model it as the groups being in the other direction, and errors are more frequent within a group, even if that's not the same groups how you divide the data to independent parts
11:47:41 <shachaf> Man, modern flash is so good.
11:47:54 <shachaf> Well, in many ways it's terrible. But still.
11:50:04 <int-e> Flash! A-ah! He's a miracle!
11:50:27 <FireFly> I guess the "drive" is just legacy at this point, like so much other terminology that gets inherited even if it doesn't necessarily strictly make sense anymore
11:50:50 <wib_jonas> int-e: I don't think it has to have a moving part. imagine "drive" as hardware "driver". the important part is that some of the complex non-repeating part that handles the mechanics or electronic logic is in the drive (the rest are on the motherboard or extension card), while the repeating part that stores lots of raw data in bulk isn't the drive.
11:50:51 <wib_jonas> for traditional removable media like floppy disks or tape this was obvious: the drive is everything but the tape or disk. for an SD card it's not so, the drive is mostly on the card itself, not the reader or motherboard. but part of your HDD or SSD is the drive electronics, even if it also has the non-drive storage part. for a HDD you can even
11:50:51 <wib_jonas> replace the drive part, because it's on a PCB that you can disconnect (loses warranty but can be worth if the data is very valuable).
11:51:00 <int-e> FireFly: We could be looking at LCD tubes. :)
11:51:01 <wib_jonas> so "drive" is a metonym for the whole drive + storage thing
11:51:24 <int-e> (But I guess flat screens lack the depth that we associated with the tubes.)
11:51:25 <wib_jonas> maybe we should call it "controller" instead of "drive"
11:51:45 <FireFly> why do we still call it "taping" to record someone when it doesn't involve a tape
11:51:50 <FireFly> or something*
11:51:55 <wib_jonas> like a RAM controller, which may still be partly on the RAM PCB but partly in a separate smaller chip than the chips that store the gigabytes
11:52:00 <FireFly> why do we call movies "flicks", etc
11:52:40 <wib_jonas> FireFly: sure, probably mostly just a legacy name
11:53:38 <int-e> FireFly: Yeah, anachronisms. When was the last time you hung up on somebody?
11:54:02 * FireFly nods
11:55:28 * FireFly . o O ( why do we call the computers that mostly go on the desk 'laptops' )
11:55:38 <wib_jonas> oh, that remind me, why are monitors called "screen"? is it called that from the magic cheese grater in color CRTs that has red/green/blue colored holes in different angles through it?
11:55:46 <FireFly> and the computers that mostly go below the desk are 'desktop' PCs
11:56:31 <wib_jonas> mine is on the desk
11:56:44 <wib_jonas> FireFly: we call movies "films" actually
11:57:45 <wib_jonas> also we call shops "stores", but that makes more sense because some people call workshops "shops" so it helps to distinguish them
11:58:28 <FireFly> calling movies "films" seems like an anachronism too :p
11:59:00 <int-e> Oh hello, OOM killer, you killed the right process, how did my whole session die?
11:59:12 <FireFly> can't imagine many of them are shot on film anymore
12:00:53 <Riviera> FireFly: https://www.imdb.com/list/ls507645320/
12:01:12 <Riviera> surely not complete, but i found this interesting
12:01:14 <FireFly> huh, well the more you know
12:01:16 <FireFly> mm
12:05:24 <wib_jonas> that reminds me? can you point me to a webpage that tells about the various audio formats that films used on film? IIRC there were like five different generations of them, the first ones analog and the alter ones digital, and they cramped them to increasingly smaller unused spaces remaining on the film so they can be combined on the same film for
12:05:24 <wib_jonas> backwards compatibility.
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12:06:38 <wib_jonas> the first one is like a huge wide strip next to the image, then the next ones go to narrower strips that we can use with lower tolerance mechanical equipment, then one goes to the spaces between the cog holes, and I think we haven't got to the part yet where they go in the wedge of the rounded corners around the cog holes but that would probably
12:06:39 <wib_jonas> have to be the next one
12:07:16 <Riviera> come on, google :)
12:09:28 <wib_jonas> I'm trying. it's hard exactly because "film" is used for newer stuff that's not celluloid film and that's most of the hits
12:10:55 <Riviera> wib_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-on-film
12:11:28 <wib_jonas> ah, thank you
12:11:53 <Riviera> probably a good starting point, many pointers in sections "Sound-on-film formats" and "See also"
12:12:10 <Riviera> ah adn the categories
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12:22:54 <wib_jonas> ok, so there are only four areas for different sound formats apparently: one just has time code to synchronize with audio stored externally, one is the traditional backwards compatible analog one that has all sorts of variants to represent multiple sound channels, and two digital ones
12:23:22 <wib_jonas> all this is on 35 mm film
12:23:56 <wib_jonas> and there are lots of experimental minor sound formats, some of which might use other areas or something
12:24:06 <fizzie> Sounds like a Technology Connections YouTube video.
12:24:58 <Riviera> fizzie: haha, i just wanted to say exactly the same :DD
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12:58:30 <wib_jonas> hmm, I wonder if there were film cameras and projectors that used a synchronized pair of films with the frames alternating on them so that the time when one film is advanced between the frames can be covered by the frame from the other film
13:21:20 <wib_jonas> hmm, imagine that backwards. instead of digital audio encoded in unused parts of the film, the audio is analog on a vinyl disk, since all moviegoers know that vinyl disks have better audio quality than any other technology, while the video is on a tiny MicroSD card glued in a careful position of the back of the vinyl disk, and the player just
13:21:21 <wib_jonas> aligns that and copies the gigabytes of video data to its internal memory before it spins up the disk to play the audio.
13:36:36 <int-e> "film" -- at least "movie" is rather timeless :)
13:38:51 <int-e> "camera" though...
13:41:55 <wib_jonas> anyway, you were right, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg--L9TKL0I is the Technology Connections YouTube video
13:43:29 <int-e> oh, light and sound, the marvels of electricity
13:44:39 <wib_jonas> "camera" is timeless too, that just means your photosensor is in a box where the only light can come in through the lens
13:44:58 <int-e> But I already know about sound on film.
13:45:47 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:35mm_film_audio_macro.jpg
13:46:06 <int-e> Note the backward compatibility layers.
13:46:49 <wib_jonas> int-e: yep, Riviera linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-on-film which links there
13:50:30 <int-e> Oh, I didn't know about the 72 Hz trick (around 5:20 in the video).
13:57:32 <int-e> pfft
13:57:45 <int-e> video gets out of sync when he mentions sound synchronization
13:58:42 <wib_jonas> int-e: that's deliberate
13:58:48 <wib_jonas> int-e: he specifically says afterwards
13:59:09 <int-e> of course
13:59:26 <int-e> But I laughed.
14:01:12 <FireFly> there is a good technology connections video on that, yeah
14:01:14 <int-e> Especially since this is a real life issue we sometimes have in this digital age. Which is kind of embarrassing. (Yeah, I know, separate data streams. Also, frequently, separate processing pipelines on the production side.)
14:01:19 <FireFly> ah it was linked
14:01:54 <FireFly> <int-e> "camera" though... <- they don't even have much of a chamber in them anymore...
14:02:03 <int-e> FireFly: exactly
14:02:03 <FireFly> or any
14:02:43 <wib_jonas> int-e: yeah, I know. it sometimes seems to happen with capture cards. I don't understand why.
14:03:41 <int-e> Also I never made the connection between sound on film and the "track" in "sound track". Though magnetic tapes also have tracks.
14:03:41 <wib_jonas> FireFly: they do have a chamber. the sensor that detects the light is inside an opaque box that ensures that light only comes in through the lens. that's still a constant in all our cameras, I believe.
14:04:11 <wib_jonas> int-e: I think "track" is from vinyl disks mainly, since the sound track is etched in it
14:04:28 <wib_jonas> at least that's what I always assumed, but maybe I'm too young
14:04:53 <int-e> isn't that called a groove
14:05:00 <wib_jonas> both
14:05:03 <wib_jonas> a groove and a track
14:05:18 <wib_jonas> so two anachronystic English words
14:05:28 <FireFly> I guess technically there still is a chamber, it's just so small especially on modern smartphone cameras
14:05:31 <FireFly> and the like
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14:10:57 <wib_jonas> on modern smartphones it's small because the camera is a separately manufactured kind-of self-contained box that you may be able to replace, especially if it's not an Apple phone. I think on some photo cameras the whole chassis serves as the chamber, though I'm not sure about this
14:11:19 <wib_jonas> I'll have to look at a teardown video to make sure
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14:13:48 <int-e> "code unto others as you would have others code unto you"... how old is that clip?
14:17:02 <wib_jonas> int-e: I'd guess 80s
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14:20:19 <int-e> "clip
14:20:36 <int-e> "clip" - and another word that's been divorced from its original meaning
14:21:39 <int-e> (When's the last time you've literally cut film? I don't remember ever doing that.)
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14:22:28 <wib_jonas> I was wrong, there's an inner dark chamber in at least the compact camera in (warning: destructive disassembly so may be painful to watch) https://youtu.be/gScwGhRSQFI?t=708 . it's more complicated for DSLRs where the light has to get into the separate viewfinder
14:23:53 <int-e> Yeah you'll typically need some distance between optics and the film or sensor. But it's so tiny these days compared to the original huge boxes.
14:24:25 <FireFly> oh now I'm just reminded of the videogame sense of 'clipping' and I guess gamedev/speedrun terminology is another whole can of worms :p
14:24:30 <FireFly> when it comes to that
14:24:37 <FireFly> but yeah language just changes over time
14:24:46 <wib_jonas> yeah, lots of technology got tiny. compare the first huge hard disks to current ones for example.
14:24:58 <int-e> FireFly: Hah. Well, that's a different meaning of "clip" entirely.
14:25:00 <wib_jonas> especially current notebook hard disks
14:25:27 <int-e> Well. Hmm. I guess it still has to do with cutting things off.
14:25:28 <FireFly> int-e: kinda, but I think somewhat related?
14:25:47 <int-e> And then evolved from there.
14:25:47 <FireFly> comes from the computer graphics sense of clipping, which descends from the film sense I'd imagine
14:26:10 <int-e> More the graphics sense than the film sense.
14:26:51 <FireFly> well, I'm not actually sure but I figured the graphics sense comes from doing effects on film by physically cutting it
14:27:03 <FireFly> actually, speaking of that.. burn, dodge, screen :p
14:27:17 <FireFly> also I suppose the entire concept of 'frame'
14:27:38 <int-e> (The film sense cuts pieces of film to be reassembled... you'll cut between frames but it's not really about the image being displayed; the graphics sense is about picking out a subimage for a frame or possiblyu clip-art as part of another image.)
14:27:50 <FireFly> ah right
14:28:00 <wib_jonas> or maybe both the graphics and film sense come from the ordinary gardening meaning
14:28:07 <FireFly> I didn't know clip was used in that sense for film, I thought that was just a cut
14:28:14 <FireFly> (between frames)
14:28:34 <FireFly> (which hey, is another term in that vein too)
14:28:36 <wib_jonas> FireFly: well twitch uses it in the film sense of cutting a part of a longer film in the time direction
14:28:54 <FireFly> oh right, yes
14:28:57 <wib_jonas> but cutting, clipping, or pruning are basically the same
14:29:01 <int-e> FireFly: it's perfectly analogous except it works in the time dimension
14:29:11 <int-e> which graphics doesn't even have
14:29:36 * FireFly nods
14:29:44 <wib_jonas> even if you cut a corner with a racecar, or make a crazy clip in Mario Kart to shorten the lap to less than half, or clip out of bounds in a platformer
14:30:26 <int-e> and then you transfer the graphics meaning... which becomes clipping planes when doing 3D projection to collision detection, which is also about plane intersections...
14:31:07 <int-e> and you end up with a quite different phenomenon that's still called "clipping" (and is actually a failure of clipping if you follow the etymology)
14:31:54 <wib_jonas> ah yes, there's also clipping in the signal dimension, which means your audio or video signal goes beyond the range of what you can represent
14:32:17 <FireFly> well the "cutting corners" sense comes more directly/obviously from like, cutting corners off with a scissor
14:32:24 <FireFly> (in my head at least)
14:32:44 <wib_jonas> what? no!
14:32:50 <wib_jonas> who'd cut the corners from a film?
14:32:59 <FireFly> I wouldn't
14:32:59 <wib_jonas> cutting corners comes from driving a car or motorbike
14:33:16 <FireFly> why does the car "cut"?
14:33:29 <wib_jonas> it lets you make a shortcut but means you're going off your designated part of the road which might be dangerous
14:33:41 <int-e> FireFly: Oh "clipping" has at least two meanings in that context.
14:33:52 <int-e> One where you barely touch an edge or something.
14:34:05 <wib_jonas> isn't that what cutting a corner means?
14:34:14 <int-e> And the other where you have a clipping *bug* that lets you through walls and the like.
14:34:39 <wib_jonas> int-e: ok, and what do you call the video game bug zipping instead of clipping?
14:34:43 <wib_jonas> s/what/when/
14:35:05 <int-e> I don't call anything zipping?
14:35:17 <FireFly> wib_jonas: yes, but in my head at least that sense of cutting a corner could come from cutting corners off of a piece of paper, replacing a 90° bend with a 45° cut that is shorter
14:35:18 <int-e> Except the zip mode in Myst.
14:35:21 <FireFly> but maybe that's all wrong :p
14:35:41 <FireFly> wib_jonas: it was that sense of cutting a corner that I was thinking of the etymology of (taking a shortcut)
14:35:42 <wib_jonas> I guess zipping is when you're out of bounds and the video game has code that is meant to put you back from slightly out of bounds to in bounds and so you move really fast out of bounds
14:35:50 <int-e> And using the zip file compressor, and, well, zipping zippers on clothes.
14:35:57 <FireFly> I think clipping can lead to zipping
14:36:16 <int-e> Oh it's the zip line kind of zipping.
14:36:37 <FireFly> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cut_off_a_corner
14:36:37 <wib_jonas> FireFly: hmm, maybe the car meaning comes from the traditional meaning, but I don't often cut off a *corner* from a piece of paper so I'm not sure
14:36:48 <FireFly> fair
14:37:08 <wib_jonas> FireFly: or https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cut_corners#Verb
14:37:09 <FireFly> (linking that because it's interesting it has a longer form than just "cut corner")
14:37:18 <FireFly> yeah
14:39:10 <int-e> are we verbally cutting corners?
14:39:39 <wib_jonas> ouch, no, that would cause bleeding
14:40:13 <wib_jonas> and if it's inside your mouth it can't even be bandaged properly so it's harder to heal
14:40:28 <FireFly> <int-e> Oh it's the zip line kind of zipping. <- I think in games that originated with megaman, which had a bug where if you approach a wall at the right place you get quickly moved across the screen as the collision code tries to displace you
14:40:36 <FireFly> ...but it's possibly from ziplines
14:40:54 <int-e> hmm, there's also the meaning of just going fast
14:40:58 <int-e> I don't know.
14:41:16 <int-e> etymology is more fun when you make up half the connections yourself :)
14:42:21 <FireFly> :p
14:42:36 <int-e> Oh... anachronisms: https://xkcd.com/890/
14:42:47 <FireFly> I found a random website of someone speculating/guessing that "cutting corners" could be from tailoring to save material
14:43:00 <FireFly> but that's no more backed up :p
14:43:21 <FireFly> but basically along the lines I was thinking, that the "cutting" of corners might be backed by physical cutting
14:43:34 <FireFly> (and translated to shortcuts by analogy)
14:43:57 <FireFly> (... I suppose even the word "shortcut" ...)
14:45:26 <wib_jonas> I don't think that makes too much sense. how would corners help in that?
14:46:34 <FireFly> yeah, I'm not sure either
14:46:47 <int-e> The racing story (you have a track to follow; it's shorter if you cut a corner) is so damn plausible.
14:47:07 <wib_jonas> int-e: sure, but why is that called "cut"?
14:47:28 <int-e> because it looks like you're cutting off a corner?
14:48:24 <int-e> Also... shortcut. Which may be circular.
14:48:49 <int-e> there's things like "cutting through the woods"
14:48:50 <FireFly> conveniently a shortcut is the shortest cut you can make, like, mathematically :p
14:48:59 <int-e> Which might be related?
14:49:10 <FireFly> true, I wonder what order those came in though
14:49:16 <FireFly> I could see "cutting" as short for "shortcutting"
14:49:24 <FireFly> clipping (heh) the word
14:49:25 <int-e> and that one might be from cutting down trees to make a path
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14:49:39 <FireFly> (and now we're truly going in circles)
14:49:40 <int-e> or brush, at least
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14:50:02 <int-e> which is something you might even do with a sword rather than axes or saws
14:50:09 <wib_jonas> FireFly: "cutting" for "shortcutting" is not an explanation, you still have to explain why "shortcutting" is called that instead of "shortgoing" or somethi8ng
14:50:32 <FireFly> yes, I just mean that the "cutting through the woods" might be more recent
14:50:43 <int-e> Anyway, I'm firmly back at "I don't know". But it's still fun to speculate.
14:50:45 <FireFly> but I'm just pseculating
14:50:48 <FireFly> speculating*
14:50:51 <FireFly> yep
14:51:02 <FireFly> what's the german word for a shortcut?
14:51:28 <wib_jonas> I think I saw a discussion recently on what meaning of "wing" came from which other meaning
14:51:49 <int-e> right-wing party?
14:52:08 <wib_jonas> sorry, I mean as a verb
14:52:38 <FireFly> what other sense than to "wing it" as in improvise?
14:52:52 <int-e> (clearly that's people gathering and having fun in the right part of a building, while the left part complains about the noise and vouches to have a left-wing party some day)
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14:53:59 <int-e> "winging it" is a good one... I have no theory for that one
14:54:28 <wib_jonas> I don't remember, something about almost crashing or crashing with a vehicle (presumably originally an airplane that has a wing) or missing or almost missing the vehicle with a missile
14:54:41 <int-e> something something world war I air fights something
14:55:19 <int-e> (I typed that before I read wib_jonas's message)
14:55:44 <FireFly> https://english.stackexchange.com/a/353390 oh fun
14:55:56 <FireFly> [ORIGIN: from theatrical slang, originally meaning [to play a role without properly knowing the text] (either by relying on a prompter in the wings or by studying the part in the wings between scenes).]
14:56:18 <FireFly> so truly from a "fuck it, we'll do it live" sense :p
14:56:35 <int-e> "prompter in the wings"
14:56:50 <int-e> that works
15:02:03 <wib_jonas> also I was recently looking up and talking about elsewhere something about chess. so there's this semi-mythical story where the ancestor of chess the game comes from India, and the pieces represent the four "branches of military": pawns for infantry, knights for cavalry, bishops for elephantry, and rooks for chariotry (represented by a camel).
15:02:03 <wib_jonas> except that some websites say, equally confidently, that the rooks come from elephantry and the bishops from chariotry. I only found one website that mentions both and confronts the ambiguity of what the elephant represents.
15:04:33 <wib_jonas> there's evidence for both. the modern name of the bishop comes from words from elephants in french and russian and more languages. but there are also claims that in some indian languages it's the name of the rook that's comes from the elephant. there are old chess sets that use an elephant to represent one of the rook or bishop, and in at least one
15:04:33 <wib_jonas> the elephant clearly represents the rook (usually I can't tell from looking at the figures which represents which). and it gets muddled because sometimes the king and queen (or just one) are represented by elephants, or that plus the bishop or knight.
15:05:31 <wib_jonas> it gets especially funny when they claim that the elephant originally represented a piece that's the precursor of the bishop that moves exactly two squares diagonally and, according to some sources and/or in some variants, it can leap over a chess piece doing that.
15:06:48 <wib_jonas> http://history.chess.free.fr/india.htm is the one website that mentions the ambiguity of which piece the elephant represents
15:08:23 <wib_jonas> oh, and it gets hard to search because "elephant chess" usually takes you to some opening called the "elephant gambit". the name of that may be related to the piece, whichever it is, but that doesn't help.
15:32:57 <wib_jonas> question. how do I clone a remote git repository, but filter out some subdirectories that have too much data, to conserve disk space, because the maintainer put large files that I don't need into a git repository together with small files that are useful for me
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15:37:48 <int-e> Hmm https://git-scm.com/docs/git-sparse-checkout has positive and negative patterns in its cone mode
15:38:58 <int-e> But does that only work with checkouts or does it also prune the store? Idon'tknow.
15:38:59 <wib_jonas> int-e: isn't that only for workspaces as opposed to the objects stored in my repo?
15:39:02 <sknebel> git clone --filter can do it, and e.. filter files over a certain sizes
15:40:36 <wib_jonas> sknebel: I'll look at that, thank you.
15:41:22 <int-e> hmm, --filter doesn't seem to support path names?
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15:47:14 <wib_jonas> yeah, probably because it filters individual objects, and those don't have path information in them
15:47:31 <wib_jonas> ok, not quite
15:47:33 <fizzie> Mercurial can do narrow clones with path-based inclusion/exclusion.
15:47:43 <fizzie> Doesn't help much with a Git repo, of course.
15:47:48 <wib_jonas> apparently it does do some recursive thingy
15:48:05 <sknebel> ah right. afaik you need to combine filter and sparse-checkout
15:48:22 <sknebel> using filter to prevent the blobs being downloaded in the initial clone
15:48:39 <sknebel> and then sparse checkout to only checkout (and thus force to be downloaded) what you need
15:48:56 <sknebel> and no, none of this is particularly user-friendly ...
15:49:56 <sknebel> https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/topics/git/partial_clone.html#filter-by-file-path
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15:49:59 <wib_jonas> fizzie: well that depends on how much git compatibility Mercurial has. git has an open format so multiple vc software read it, but usually they read it just enough to say you can convert your existing git repo to their repo once.
15:50:01 <sknebel> something like that
15:50:29 <wib_jonas> sknebel: ah, also looks useful
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16:04:46 <wib_jonas> thanks for the hints
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16:35:07 <esolangs> [[Bruhfunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107024&oldid=105541 * Nurdle * (+0) /* External Resources */
16:48:18 <int-e> Oh, --filter reads a specification from a blob. So you have to dump a file into the repo (not necessarily in the master branch) that contains a spec like '/*\n!/excluded-directory', then refer to it when cloning like `git clone file://src dst --filter=sparse:oid=sparse:sparse --sparse, and then populate .git/info/sparse (say, git cat-file sparse:sparse-checkout > .git/info/sparse-checkout , and...
16:48:24 <int-e> ...then checkout. Oh and this only works if the source repo enables uploadpack.allowFilter)
16:48:27 <int-e> So complicated!
16:50:20 <int-e> Maybe even --global if it's remote? Unclear; my test seems to have worked with a local setting, but I only used file://.
16:56:36 <int-e> Also works for ssh protocol; I guess the global option remark is for serving via https, where repo configurations may be untrusted.
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20:23:56 <b_jonas> can you turn any file into a zip file containing it by just reading it and appending to it, i.e. in place and writing nowhere but past its original end?
20:26:26 <fizzie> I think there's a mandatory "local" per-file header in front of each file entry.
20:26:39 <fizzie> (In addition to the central directory at the back.)
20:27:25 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_(file_format)#Local_file_header "-- is immediately followed by the compressed data."
20:27:32 <fizzie> So I suspect the answer is no, sad as it is.
20:28:37 <fizzie> Unless you count writing a (potentially compressed) redundant copy of the original file past its original end, but that seems like it shouldn't count.
20:34:15 <esolangs> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107025&oldid=106556 * Joaozin003 * (+1) /* List of OISCs */
20:52:39 <b_jonas> I see
20:53:16 <b_jonas> pity with the global header being at the end
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22:10:22 <fizzie> One of these days I'll actually get a rsync command correct the first time around. I keep forgetting how it interprets a trailing slash in the source/destination specification.
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23:21:52 <FireFly> you and me both
23:22:27 <FireFly> at least GNU tar(1) is easier these days, you can just tar xf and have it handle compression automagically
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00:23:39 <b_jonas> FireFly: you think so? how do you spell the options that make tar not chown and not chmod when extracting files as root?
00:26:07 <FireFly> I'd check the manpage for that, it doesn't usually come up :p
00:28:16 <b_jonas> funnily I didn't use to have a problem with the compression options. -z for gzip, -j for bzip2, those were all the formats I encountered
00:31:08 <b_jonas> also I almost always type xvf instead of just xf
00:49:39 <zzo38> I usually just use separate program for compression if that is what I want when using tar, such as gzip/zcat
00:50:46 <JAA> --auto-compress <3
00:55:58 <JAA> Although I actually usually use unar(1) for extracting. Even easier and has been able to handle pretty much any 'archive' file format I've thrown at it so far.
00:58:08 <zzo38> What file formats can it read? There are some files that are rarely implemented.
01:00:17 <zzo38> There are some TRON files which seem to be archive files but I do not know what they are and cannot find much information or other stuff. (I could decode some TRON files which are not archive files, such as ones with diagrams, and could decode the outer framing even of the files that I did not otherwise know, but not always the application data)
01:04:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, my backup script does (tar -c --null --no-recursion -T | 7z a $filename.t7z -t7z -mx=3 -si$filename.tar) but that's in a config file, I don't try to remembe it
01:06:50 <zzo38> For backups I use several other switches as well, including --numeric-owner and --one-file-system
01:08:40 <JAA> zzo38: They're listed half-way down the page here: https://theunarchiver.com/
01:09:27 <JAA> (No, it's not a macOS-exclusive thing, even though the website looks like it at first glance.)
01:14:09 <zzo38> There are some self-extracting EXE files that 7-Zip could list but not extract. There are some files that I could not find listed here nor with other programs in my computer, or elsewhere.
01:14:59 <zzo38> Although there are many file formats listed there, they are not nearly all of them.
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03:38:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bbrk24 * New user account
03:40:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107026&oldid=107013 * Bbrk24 * (+209)
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03:55:18 <JAA> There are always more obscure formats that aren't covered, yeah, but it covers pretty much anything that's reasonably common.
04:03:54 <esolangs> [[Trilangle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107027 * Bbrk24 * (+2268) Create page with initial information
04:07:22 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107028&oldid=106931 * Bbrk24 * (+16) /* T */ Add Trilangle
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04:36:55 <esolangs> [[Trilangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107029&oldid=107027 * Bbrk24 * (+1774) /* Instruction set */ Added brief overview of instructions
04:38:08 <esolangs> [[Trilangle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107030&oldid=107029 * Bbrk24 * (+0) /* Instruction set */ Wrote the wrong value for 0/3
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05:27:44 <zzo38> There are also such things in some formats such as unusual metadata, unusual encodings, etc. Furthermore, some files can be parsed as multiple formats, or cannot be auto-detected, so being able to specify explicitly which format you want, should be a good idea.
05:30:25 <zzo38> Can some of these many formats program to read Famicom Disk System files?
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05:31:51 <zzo38> Also there is consideration of different features of file systems and operating systems. For example, on Windows, file names are Unicode and some characters are not allowed (e.g. question marks) and are case-insensitive, but UNIX can have any sequence of bytes other than null and slash, and are case-sensitive. TRON will use TRON character code. Macintosh can have resource fork and data fork.
05:32:22 <zzo38> And then, permissions work differently on different systems, too.
05:33:21 <zzo38> One format that I had once asked someone making another library to consider is the Hamster archive format, but they did not add it.
06:07:24 <shachaf> So say I want to do k/n secret sharing. I have some secret which is an element of a finite field.
06:08:16 <shachaf> Does the following work? Fix any n×k matrix such that any set of k rows is linearly independent.
06:08:39 <shachaf> To split a secret up, pick k-1 random field elements uniformly. Then apply your matrix to the vector (s,r1,r2,...)
06:09:12 <shachaf> To recover a secret, invert the matrix consisting of the rows for the shards you have.
06:09:29 <shachaf> The answer is no, because "any n×k matrix" is too broad -- for example you don't want the row [1 0 0 ...]
06:09:56 <shachaf> Is "any n×k matrix with no nonzero elements" sufficient?
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07:32:04 <shachaf> It's not necessary, because, for instance, [[0 1 0] [0 0 1] [a b c] [d e f] [g h i]] can be a valid 3/5 secret-sharing scheme, right?
08:13:12 <esolangs> [[MoonScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107031&oldid=106972 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+416) Add Turing completeness paragraph written by @ChatGPT
08:13:24 <esolangs> [[MoonScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107032&oldid=107031 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+1)
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09:59:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: that sounds like you're trying to generalize the method that uses polynomials
09:59:45 <shachaf> Right, the Shamir polynomial method uses a Vandermonde matrix, e.g. [[1 1 1] [1 2 4] [1 3 9] ...]
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11:01:33 <b_jonas> it's funny how 5-bit hollerith code didn't originally have a defined bit endianness among the 5 bits of its characters: it was represented as either 5 holes on a tape or 5 bits on a serial line, neither of which per se decide which bit is the least significant, and digits or letters of the alphabet aren't represented in anything resembling the contiguous arrangements of ascii or ebcdic, so you can't
11:01:39 <b_jonas> tell from those encodings either which bit is least significant. it does kind of have a canonical endianness *now*, because the same serial lines were later used to transfer ascii-related encodings with least significant bit first.
11:04:01 <b_jonas> I guess Morse is like that too, though I personally consider Morse code as most significant bit first so the table is ETIANMSURWDKGOHVF.L.PJBXCYZQ.. modulo typos
11:20:40 <b_jonas> I guess https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs/tpk.i also acknowledges or defines a bit endianness for hollerith
11:23:30 <b_jonas> s/hollerith/baudot/ argh
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13:23:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thorben3 * New user account
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14:25:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RixTheTyrunt * New user account
14:27:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107033&oldid=107026 * RixTheTyrunt * (+163) /* Introductions */
14:41:33 <esolangs> [[Hexcellent]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107034 * RixTheTyrunt * (+272) Added my esolang B)
14:42:24 <esolangs> [[Hexcellent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107035&oldid=107034 * RixTheTyrunt * (-3)
14:42:41 <esolangs> [[Hexcellent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107036&oldid=107035 * RixTheTyrunt * (-28)
14:46:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107037&oldid=107028 * RixTheTyrunt * (+17) Hexcellent!
14:49:31 <esolangs> [[Hexcellent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107038&oldid=107036 * RixTheTyrunt * (+73)
14:50:14 <Taneb> Hello! What's new-ish in the world of esolangs?
14:59:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107039&oldid=107033 * RixTheTyrunt * (+2) /* Introductions */
15:07:52 <esolangs> [[User:RixTheTyrunt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107040 * RixTheTyrunt * (+201) Created page with "Hey, uuhh... I'm a Tyrunt , I like [[Main Page|Esolangs]] , I programmed [[Hexcellent]] , I have a [https://replit.com/@RixTheTyrunt/ Replit] account , and... I like emojis !"
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15:31:36 <int-e> b_jonas: The important thing about endianness is that octets are transmitted with the lsb first, but multi-byte words re big endian. That's how it has to be. ;)
15:33:40 <int-e> (As you might know, that's the Ethernet reality, despite https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien137.txt warning of exactly that outcome.)
15:35:53 <int-e> (TBF, that article was probably a reaction to Ethernet, which was introduced the same year.)
15:36:37 <int-e> (And been in development for some years before that.)
15:38:48 <int-e> Taneb: I have the feeling that we (this channel) may be out of the loop. There's some addition to the esolangs wiki. Some attempts to strike up chats about them here but the channel is a) extremely slow and b) some people (tm) are bad at joining small talk.
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16:17:49 <Taneb> int-e: I'm definitely very out of the loop. Haven't been looking at the wiki or here for a long time. Decided to open my IRC client up again recently
16:19:10 <int-e> Taneb: I guess what I'm saying is that looking at the wiki (recent changes) may be a better bet than asking here :)
16:19:34 <Taneb> And I guess what I'm saying is "people here please tell me interesting things that you've been working on"
16:19:40 <int-e> I hear there's a Discord guild now.
16:20:23 <int-e> ("guild" - it was a much more honest term than "server")
16:21:41 <int-e> There's a sequel to n-Step Steve that kept us busy over christmas, does that count?
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17:12:05 <b_jonas> ok wait, so first I have to figure out which way the bits of baudot are even transmitted on serial line.
17:14:13 <b_jonas> apparently the bits of the five-bit baudot byte are numbered in at least three different ways
17:15:23 <b_jonas> and yes, there's been a discord guild for esolangs or two for a while
17:15:49 <b_jonas> you can tell because https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal links to it
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17:21:18 <b_jonas> IIUC baudot on serial port transmits the bits starting from the side of the tape to which the tiny cog hole is closer. the circuit is closed by default and for the stop bit and for where there's a hole on the tape, the circuit is open for the start bit and where there's solid paper on the tape
17:24:05 <b_jonas> but there's something strange here
17:29:34 <b_jonas> ok, so if https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs/tpk.i gives the order of the letters then those bits are transmitted from least significant bit first, which matches how we transmit ASCII IIUC
17:32:32 <b_jonas> but I could have gotten something wrong here, I haven't cross-verified this
17:47:12 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107041&oldid=106083 * Joaozin003 * (+1)
17:53:29 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107042&oldid=105109 * Joaozin003 * (+12) /* Memory Mapping */
17:57:49 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107043&oldid=107042 * Joaozin003 * (-13) /* The full Addbig instruction */
17:58:17 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107044&oldid=107043 * Joaozin003 * (-12)
17:58:53 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107045&oldid=107044 * Joaozin003 * (+6) /* The full Addbig instruction */
18:23:52 <zzo38> I have not been working on many esolangs things recently, but I have done other stuff
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19:41:04 <zzo38> I had invented some alternative encodings for the TRON character set, including TRON-5, TRON-6, TRON-6A, TRON-7, TRON-8, TRON-16BE, TRON-16LE, TRON-32BE, TRON-32LE, EUC-TRON, UNI-TRON. (the last one is inefficient and is only intended to use with programs that insist to use Unicode)
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22:41:11 <esolangs> [[Hexcellent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107046&oldid=107038 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+58) Stub, categories
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22:45:38 <TheFloatingPixel> Hello! I'm new here. I almost finished my first esolang, and wanted to get started on the wiki page. I'm wondering if i should use the {{infobox proglang}} template on my page, or is it something reserved for just some specific langs? I'm wondering because not many pages use this template.
22:47:21 <int-e> Looks very generic to me... I'm not sure how many people are aware of its existence. I wasn't :)
22:48:46 <TheFloatingPixel> I plan on putting all the info that would be there in the text anyway, but was thinking it would be kind of a summary.
22:49:50 <int-e> Yeah.
22:50:57 <int-e> It's definitely nice to have.
22:55:08 <int-e> It's used on 416 pages, that's quite a lot.
22:57:13 <TheFloatingPixel> That's more than i thought '=D
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07:12:22 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107047&oldid=106988 * Arctenik * (+2466) /* Implementations */ Add Minecraft commands implementation
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08:32:59 <int-e> `? hyperloo
08:33:02 <HackEso> hyperloo? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
08:34:13 <int-e> . o O ( It features supersonic flushing. )
08:34:42 <int-e> . o O ( But it's also connected to a number of mysterious disappearances. )
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09:42:52 <shachaf> I got a nice answer here framing it the same way int-e did: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/4642312
09:43:12 <shachaf> Though I'd still like to know about the core of the question, on general D+P>q bounds.
09:57:35 <int-e> That indeed looks eerily familiar.
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09:59:33 <int-e> And I think they got about as far as I did? I don't quite recall where exactly I gave up.
10:00:45 <int-e> It's not of huge practical importance in that you can always make your shards larger relatively cheaply.
10:02:49 <int-e> Heck I don't even remember *when* we discussed this here... half a year ago? More? Less?
10:39:27 <shachaf> Presumably less.
10:39:52 <shachaf> I'm not sure I knew anything about erasure codes half a year ago.
11:01:54 <b_jonas> no, we were talking about normal error-correcting codes and secret sharing instead
11:04:25 <b_jonas> yeah, looks like we weren't discussing them ebfore 2022-10
11:04:41 <int-e> Hmm. Well, the latter is really close to erasure codes, except that you always erase the original n shards, and p is at least n.
11:04:50 <b_jonas> (or we used other words or codes to mention them so grep doesn't find it)
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11:05:54 <b_jonas> int-e: kind of, but secret sharing has more strict requirements so that you can never recover parts of the cleartext even probabilistically
11:05:55 <int-e> Basically, the design question is the same if you focus on systematic linear codes.
11:06:23 <int-e> b_jonas: we have yesterday's counting argument that ensures the secrets are actually obscured if you have too few shards.
11:07:43 <shachaf> int-e: I think in most secret sharing schemes the secret is just a single shard?
11:07:44 <int-e> And in particular, the same "matrix with all square submatrices being invertible" characterization also occurs in the secret sharing case.
11:07:50 <shachaf> You add randomness with the other shards.
11:08:15 * int-e shrugs.
11:08:32 <int-e> Maybe I'll read old logs later now that b_jonas has narrowed it down a bit.
11:08:45 <shachaf> Is the "matrix with all suqare submatrices being invertible" characterization only applicable to systematic codes?
11:10:11 <int-e> As yes, because it interacts with the fixed identity matrix.
11:10:34 <int-e> Hmm.
11:10:55 <shachaf> The general characterization is "NxK matrix where any KxK submatrix is invertible", presumably.
11:10:56 <b_jonas> I admit I don't feel like thinking too much about this. secret sharing is practically solved to my satisfaction; you need erasure code for raid arrays of hard disks or SSDs but you only need small ones with few shards and for large data and you don't mind a little bit of overhead so it's practically solved too; I feel like the actually important stuff is error-correcting codes rather than erasure codes
11:10:58 <int-e> So no, this doesn't apply to secret sharing. But I'm pretty sure *I* ventured into erasure codes last year for some reason.
11:11:21 <int-e> For secret sharing you only care about the maximal square submatrices.
11:11:29 <shachaf> b_jonas: Yes, error-correcting codes seem a lot more interesting and tricky.
11:11:43 <shachaf> I don't even know how to do them efficiently.
11:12:43 <b_jonas> admittedly you may also want larger erasure codes for long distance radio communication where you transmit shards one after another and there can be radio noise erasing multiple shards, and then you use error-correcting codes inside shards in case parts of them are erased obvisouly, and that combo might work better than a generic error-correction code combination
11:12:55 <int-e> I mean the connection is still there in the sense that if you have a systematic erasure code with sufficiently many parity shards, you can use those parity shards for secret sharing.
11:13:14 <int-e> But I'm less sure now that this is how I got there.
11:14:26 <b_jonas> but in this radio example too you don't need a perfect code, you can accept a small (compared to your data) overhead and that apparently makes the problem somewhat easier (in some cases at least)
11:16:10 <b_jonas> but also, in the radio case your code unit (or shards) will want to be large, so it's not hard to use a linear scheme based on polynomials in a finite field, right?
11:16:35 <b_jonas> it's not the most computationally efficient but not too bad either
11:17:05 <b_jonas> especially since if you need it at large scale you can make custom hardware for it and then it will be as efficient as any
11:25:04 <b_jonas> I mean at that point you're using all sorts of funny combinations of error-correcting codes and checksums too so the erasure code isn't really worse
11:54:58 <shachaf> int-e: Presumably you have to use randomness for secret sharing.
11:56:00 <int-e> ?
11:56:21 <b_jonas> yes. why is that a problem?
11:56:23 <int-e> Shamir's secret sharing doesn't need any randomness; it's an information-theoretic argument.
11:56:47 <int-e> I mean, obviously, if the secret is non-random (read: guessable) then you have a problem.
11:56:54 <shachaf> How can a deterministic algorithm split a secret?
11:58:00 <int-e> err
11:58:15 <int-e> Never mind, I'm still in erasure code mode I think.
11:58:40 <int-e> You need those extra polynomial coefficients and yes, those should better be random.
12:01:32 <b_jonas> you can make your secret random with some symmetric cryptography if that helps, that can be worth if the secret is large
12:02:04 <shachaf> I assume secret sharing usually operates on GF(256) or something.
12:02:07 <b_jonas> but it's not forced by some cryptanalysis nonsense like how you make the data that you sign with RSA random
12:02:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: in IOCCC yes, but you can use a different field
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12:10:47 <int-e> hmm when did debian add non-free-firmware
12:16:38 <b_jonas> int-e: they have had a non-free section that's like not officially part of debian. I have it added in the sources.list but then all packages from it filtered out by default in aptitude so I can install the few GFDL licensed manuals that they somehow consider non-free when they consider gnuplot with its similarly restrictive license free
12:16:45 <int-e> tromp: Hmm is any of the alpha (psuedo-)combinator stuff published?
12:17:29 <int-e> b_jonas: I know about that one. But see https://packages.debian.org/sid/firmware-nvidia-gsp
12:17:53 <int-e> I had to add non-free-firmware as well for that.
12:17:57 <tromp> not published, just mentioned in some forums
12:18:24 <b_jonas> int-e: isn't that also in the non-free section?
12:18:58 <int-e> Nope. Note that this is unstable (sid). I'm sure it's a recent change.
12:19:02 <tromp> e.g. in https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/153163/what-is-the-shortest-function-of-lambda-calculus-that-generates-all-functions-of
12:19:06 <shachaf> So I quite like this thing about computing Fibonacci numbers using the quotient ring Z[p]/[p^2 = p + 1]
12:19:30 <shachaf> And I can see how to make it work for any linear recurrence, and how to show that it works, but I feel like I'm missing some context.
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12:33:46 <int-e> b_jonas: Ah, this seems relevant: https://www.debian.org/vote/2022/vote_003 ...having a distinct section name helps with managing what goes into the installer.
12:41:49 <b_jonas> int-e: so the non-free firmware remains in a separate section so it's easy to tell which packages are non-free, but they're included on the install DVD? I don't particularly care about what goes to the full DVD because the debian DVDs don't seem to work well in practice anyway
12:42:34 <int-e> b_jonas: as far as I can see they've split non-free into firmware and other stuff (though I don't know what other stuff there is)
12:43:44 <int-e> anyway, I don't care beyond the fact that I can now update this system again.
12:44:19 <int-e> after adding non-free-firmware to sources.list
12:44:20 <b_jonas> I see. and that applies starting from debian 12 but not to 11, right?
12:44:52 <int-e> I assume so.
12:45:01 <int-e> It would be crazy to break stable like this.
12:45:54 <b_jonas> yeah, it looks like bullseye doesn't have a non-free-firmware section but bookworm does
12:46:42 <b_jonas> where are the names for the debian versions listed officially? there used to be a nice link from the debian homepage
12:46:45 <int-e> And who knows, maybe they'll make this addition automatic for dist upgrades to the next stable release for installations that include any non-free firmware packages.
12:46:47 <b_jonas> but they like hid it now
12:47:24 <b_jonas> https://www.debian.org/releases/index.en.html
12:48:23 <b_jonas> so 9 is stretch, 10 is buster aka oldstable, 11 is bullseye aka stable, and bookworm is the next one
12:48:26 <int-e> yeah that's the only source I know
12:49:01 <b_jonas> the page is there, they just hid the link from the frontpage
12:49:47 <b_jonas> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ftparchives#sourceforcodenames goes back farther, but even https://www.debian.org/releases/index.en.html goes to before I first used Debian
12:49:59 <int-e> . o O ( what's a front page... I usually bypass those with a search engine )
12:51:31 <int-e> ah, the FAQ is way better
12:52:00 <b_jonas> hmm, https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ftparchives#sourceforcodenames doesn't acknowledge that "sid" is also an acronym standing for "still in development"
12:52:21 <b_jonas> it does tell what sid is and who Sid in Toy Story is, but not the dual meaning
12:52:29 <b_jonas> s/meaning/etymology/
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12:54:37 <b_jonas> hmm
12:54:46 <b_jonas> they are going to run out of good codenames in a decade
12:55:21 <b_jonas> "rocky" is still usable, and "spell" probably, and there's an RC car called "RC" but that would be a really bad name for a release because everyone will read it as meaning "release candidate"
12:56:05 <b_jonas> but after that you'll have to use toys from the sequels or something
12:56:48 <b_jonas> and Toy Story 2 adds very few new toys
12:58:33 <int-e> . o O ( Video title: The Death of Debian ...and then talk about Toy Story characters. )
12:59:18 <int-e> FWIW I didn't even know that that's where they take their names from.
13:00:47 <b_jonas> "Debian invests donations into flop sequel Toy Story 5"
13:02:02 <int-e> While critics lament the confusing cast of new characters with no purpose for the story, Debian went on record stating that it was money well spent.
13:02:35 <b_jonas> or they could just go: stretch, buster, bullseye, bookworm, trixie, rocky, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22
13:03:10 <int-e> TRUE, FALSE, FILE_NOT_FOUND
13:16:21 <b_jonas> perhaps they could cut costs if they skip the Hollywood movie that nobody would want to watch anyway. release some tie-in merchandise books and cheap toys, write a bunch of reviews of the first half of the advance screening by reviewers who walked out the room in the middle, document the characters on Wikia and TvTropes, post some social media posts on whatever people use at that time about how the
13:16:27 <b_jonas> movie is so bad that cinemas don't even bother to show it – no wait, cinemas won't exist anymore, make that streaming providers don't even host the movie
13:21:59 <b_jonas> int-e: isn't it FALSE = 0, TRUE = 1, ENOENT = 2 ?
13:23:11 <int-e> No. The reversal of True and False was almost as hurtful as the extra value: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/What_Is_Truth_0x3f_
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16:13:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Richard565 * New user account
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16:26:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107048&oldid=107039 * Richard565 * (+213)
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17:45:07 <esolangs> [[Cellarg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107049 * TheFloatingPixel * (+5875) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=CellArg |paradigms=imperative |author=[[TheFloatingPixel]] |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dimensions=one-dimensional |refimpl=[https://thefloatingpixel.github.io/CellArg/playground] |influence
17:46:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move