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01:54:25 <esolangs> [[User:SpaceByte/VandalismTestPage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107107 * SpaceByte * (+2157) Created page with "This is a page for testing my vandalism bot. (this is spammed to meet character requirements to test the bot)(this is spammed to meet character requirements to test the bot)(this is spammed to meet character requirements to test the bot)(this
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01:55:22 <esolangs> [[User:SpaceByte/VandalismTestPage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107109&oldid=107108 * SpaceByte * (+2157)
01:56:53 <zzo38> Is the art and effects of the newer Magic: the Gathering cards too aggressive? It seems to me. (Homelands seems about right, though)
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02:17:39 <fizzie> Hmm, an unsolicited bot?
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02:45:48 <esolangs> [[Vandalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107147&oldid=107145 * SpaceByte * (+773) Undo revision 107145 by [[Special:Contributions/SpaceByte|SpaceByte]] ([[User talk:SpaceByte|talk]])
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02:53:16 <esolangs> [[Vandalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107157&oldid=107154 * SpaceByte * (+773) Undo revision 107154 by [[Special:Contributions/SpaceByte|SpaceByte]] ([[User talk:SpaceByte|talk]])
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08:13:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * XKCD Wrong Times Table * New user account
08:33:04 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107191 * Tesolang * (+527) i know this is a stub
08:33:45 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107192&oldid=107191 * Tesolang * (-2) jellang link was in square brackets so i fixed it
08:34:53 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107193&oldid=107192 * Tesolang * (+4) the commands were bunched up so fixed
08:37:07 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107194&oldid=107193 * Tesolang * (+42) why do i have to edit this page so much
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09:27:39 <esolangs> [[User:Tesolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107195&oldid=107002 * Tesolang * (+13) added jellang
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10:05:15 <wib_jonas> fizzie: in the wiki configuration, please update the oeis: interwiki prefix to point to the new website https://oeis.org/ . the old URL has sadly bitrotten and we had to replace it everywhere.
10:10:05 <FireFly> wait, where did it live before..
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11:00:10 <wib_jonas> something's wrong with the net connection, presumably on this side, keeps kicking me out of IRC… wait, maybe that's a feature, trying to make me do more useful work?
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11:28:14 <fizzie> FireFly: https://esolangs.org/w/api.php?action=query&meta=siteinfo&siprop=interwikimap has it at http://www.research.att.com/cgi-bin/access.cgi/as/njas/sequences/eisA.cgi?Anum=$1 which is probably quite ancient.
11:29:15 <FireFly> probably; it seems oeis.org was rgeistered 2003, and at least as far as I've been aware of oeis it's been at that location I think
11:30:07 <fizzie> Apparently it's configured through the database, not through LocalSettings. And there's a default list -- https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/plugins/gitiles/mediawiki/core/+/HEAD/maintenance/interwiki.list -- which has OEIS in the correct URL, but it might be that list is just the defaults for a new installation, not overriding existing values.
11:30:08 <FireFly> > In 2006, the user interface was overhauled and more advanced search capabilities were added. In 2010 an OEIS wiki at OEIS.org was created to simplify the collaboration of the OEIS editors and contributors.[8]
11:30:09 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: error: parse error on input ‘,’
11:30:24 <FireFly> at least as old as 2010 and probably at least 2006, I guess
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11:31:20 <fizzie> Our wiki seems to have started in 6 April 2005 if Main Page edit history is anything to go by.
11:37:11 <fizzie> But, in the MediaWiki defaults, the OEIS URL was updated only as late as 2014: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/plugins/gitiles/mediawiki/core/+/348a329d5be3a2827cbc3f270a418b02e04e02f4
11:37:21 <fizzie> So that's where we'd've gotten the old one from.
11:38:01 <fizzie> I'll try to figure it out in the evening, there's some maintenance scripts around it but nothing that clearly states it'd update the table based on the defaults.
11:38:28 <wib_jonas> yes, but it seems the old URLs were still valid in 2010
11:42:19 <wib_jonas> from what I understand, some American universities decided that they don't want users to host controversial stuff on their servers or even on any webpage under their domain name, just in case some news site starts to claim "New Southshire University claims <controversial thing>" when it's really just the private webpage of a student under a URL
11:42:19 <wib_jonas> like http://studentlab.u-newsouthshire.edu/~drunkjoe/party.html , so to simplify matters they just broke all those links, because it's easier than to decide which ones might contain controversial content in the future
11:42:55 <wib_jonas> and this is why both the old OEIS links and the old links to Erich Friedman's pages and more are now dead and we have to replace them
11:43:15 <wib_jonas> it sucks but when they're quality resources like these two we do spend some effort on it
11:44:10 <wib_jonas> for the record https://erich-friedman.github.io/ is definitely Erich's Friedman's, not just someone else with a copy of his old homepage that used to be on http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/
11:51:18 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log --removed -r 12473: -T "u\n" -l 1 /hackenv/wisdom/password | grep -q || slashlearn 'password//The password of the month is up against his power, they were just like bugs.'
11:51:23 <HackEso> Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERNS [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information. \ Relearned 'password': The password of the month is up against his power, they were just like bugs.
11:51:46 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log --removed -r 12473: -T "u\n" -l 1 /hackenv/wisdom/password | grep -q . || slashlearn 'password//The password of the month is up against his power, they were just like bugs.'
11:51:55 <wib_jonas> this is why we should have a command for this
11:52:17 <wib_jonas> I even have what I think is a correct one in the logs, just haven't created a script in bin
11:52:22 <HackEso> The password of the month is up against his power, they were just like bugs.
11:54:57 <wib_jonas> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2022-09.html#lSI is the command
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12:43:45 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107196&oldid=107194 * Tesolang * (+0) edited a bit
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13:57:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MixoMAx * New user account
13:59:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107197&oldid=107079 * MixoMAx * (+224)
14:05:29 <esolangs> [[AsPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107198 * MixoMAx * (+2196) initla commit of the Ascii Programming Language
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17:03:57 <esolangs> [[XY problem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107199 * Hakerh400 * (+1466) XY problem
17:05:50 <esolangs> [[XY problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107200&oldid=107199 * Hakerh400 * (+6)
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17:10:16 <esolangs> [[XY problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107202&oldid=107201 * Hakerh400 * (-17)
17:10:40 <esolangs> [[XY problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107203&oldid=107202 * Hakerh400 * (+2)
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21:00:13 <ais523> suppose I have two regular expressions (in the mathematical sense – concatenation + Kleene star + alternation + empty string + letters from the alphabet), which are defined using a language that has macros
21:00:55 <ais523> i.e. I can do something like «$a = "(ab*|cd)", $b = "${a}${a}${a}"»
21:01:16 <ais523> the macros obviously don't increase the computational power, but they can potentially make the source a lot shorter
21:02:01 <ais523> I'm looking for an efficient way to find a string that matches both expressions simultaneously
21:02:38 <ais523> this problem is clearly decidable by converting both to NFAs or DFAs, but that could incur an exponential blowup…
21:07:06 <b_jonas> ais523: it probably doesn't matter, but are those macros recursive, eg. can you write '$x = |a$x' instead of '$x = a*' ?
21:08:03 <b_jonas> make that the recursive macro only occuring on the right so they remain regular instead of CF
21:08:57 <ais523> b_jonas: in the original, yes but I got rid of the recursion already by replacing it with Kleene star
21:09:38 <ais523> so only nonrecursive uses are left
21:10:21 <b_jonas> wait a monent, I don't think you can even hope to get rid of an exponential buildup because something like $b = aa; $c = $b$b; $d = $c$c; ... $z = $y$y describes a language with just one string that's exponentially long
21:10:54 <ais523> b_jonas: this is the hard part, I think – presumably we can use macros to describe the output string too
21:11:09 <ais523> so the issue is to handle the exponentially long strings without an exponentially long increase in runtime
21:13:25 <ais523> your example can be handled just by run-length encoding but I suspect that might not be enough for the general case
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21:21:18 <ais523> I think, maybe it might be possible to calculate differences between two macros?
21:22:05 <ais523> like, "here's the set of strings $x for which there's a string that's both a $b$x and a $c, and the set of strings $y for which there's a string that's both a $b and a $c$y"
21:26:11 <esolangs> [[AsPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107204&oldid=107198 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+148) External resources, categories
21:31:53 <b_jonas> so in the input you can use the macros to abbreviate repeating by a fixed count to as short as the binary representation of that count. that means to take the intersection you kind of have to be able to solve a chinese reminder problem with two moduluses
21:32:33 <b_jonas> not hard, we know how to use the extended euclidean algorithm for that, but it kind of constrains what kind of solution you can expect
21:33:33 <ais523> yes – I actually noticed the Chinese remainder problem problem before I noticed the exponential blowup, and that's about as far as I got before turning to #esoteric for help
21:35:33 <ais523> the naive solution ends up iterating over all possible tuples of remainders, which feels like it should be optimisable
21:35:52 <ais523> but maybe it can't be – this problem can't be TC but it might be something-else-complete
21:36:13 <ais523> …I guess NP-completeness is the most likely form of completeness?
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21:36:38 <ais523> ooh, I think you can implement subset sum in this, can't you?
21:37:17 <ais523> by using the macros to RLE numbers, so that the input represents the lengths of the strings in binary (or some similar base), not unary
21:38:27 <ais523> this is a disappointing result in a way, but now that I know there are cases that can't be done efficiently, it saves me from worrying about the general solution and I can just look for special cases that are common and easy to solve
21:39:04 <b_jonas> do we know it's even NP by the way?
21:40:43 <ais523> hmm, good point – I kind-of assumed that by going nondeterministic you could just guess the correct branches for the regex every time
21:40:52 <ais523> but that doesn't necessarily make it run in polynomial time
21:42:28 <ais523> it's clearly doable in exponential time and linear space
21:44:25 <b_jonas> if you say polynomial space then I can buy that
21:44:48 <b_jonas> I'm not convinced of linear space
21:45:31 <ais523> oh, I meant nondeterministic linear space
21:46:15 <ais523> when you can do it simply by keeping a pointer into every macro recording whether and where that macro is being evaluated for the first regex, and again for the second
21:46:27 <ais523> …although you can do it in deterministic linear space too
21:47:01 <ais523> use a counter of the possible nondeterministic executions
21:47:06 <ais523> to decide which way to go
21:47:37 <ais523> there are exponentially many possible executions, so the counter will take O(log(exp(input))) bytes to represent = linear in the size of the input
21:48:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Periotun * New user account
21:49:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107205&oldid=107197 * Periotun * (+123)
21:51:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:XKCD Wrong Times Table]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107206 * Periotun * (+256) Created page with "It seems that you're trying to introduce yourself. You're supposed to do it on [[Esolang:Introduce_yourself|this page]]. The page also contains other people's introductions. ~~~~"
21:53:51 <b_jonas> ok, nondeterministic linear space sounds possible
21:54:09 <b_jonas> I don't think deterministic linear space is
22:03:22 <ais523> ah, I think you may be right there
22:04:24 <ais523> my reasoning was wrong because for the counter to work, it has to remember which choices were made in each use of each macro, which might be exponential itself
22:05:04 <b_jonas> also if you wanted to intersect not two but any number of macroed things (with just alternation, no kleenee star) then you could directly encode SAT of conjunctive normal form boolean formulas into it
22:06:29 <ais523> it's actually interesting that the Kleene star doesn't seem to be fundamental to this problem being diffiult
22:06:54 <ais523> the context is that I've been looking into context-free grammars, and trying to work out which of them can be efficiently parsed
22:07:13 <b_jonas> ais523: we don't know that! all you showed without the Kleenee star is that it's at least NP-hard. but it may require double-exponential time instead of just simple exponential or something and you may need the star for that
22:07:18 <ais523> and which of them can be efficiently determined to be unambiguous
22:07:46 <ais523> b_jonas: right, but NP-hard counts as "difficult" even if there are more difficult variants of the problem available
22:08:26 <b_jonas> and if you try to do it deterministically then the lack of star helps because you can iterate on all the (finite number of) execution traces of a regex in the more straightforward backtrack way
22:10:33 <b_jonas> I also don't know how hard this is without the macros, or without macros or stars, and then you can try to allow macros and/or stars in just one of the two intersected thingies
22:10:46 <b_jonas> and I'm too tired to really think about these now
22:15:00 <b_jonas> finding a string that matches one grammar but not the other is already NP-hard if you allow macros but no stars, because you can encode a disjunctive normal form boolean formula in the second language, but this doesn't easily translate to your original intersection problem
22:16:27 <ais523> regexes can be negated, but it often causes an explosion in size – I wonder if the macros would prevent that?
22:16:48 <ais523> because you can have a negated version of each macro and define the negated versions recursively
22:17:19 <b_jonas> you can also encode the dnf thing to the difference of two grammars with stars but without macros by the way
22:30:47 <ais523> after thinking about the "look for ambiguities in a context-free grammar" problem for a while I'm starting to consider it to be an esolang, it's a) well-known to be TC and b) supports a surprising range of programming techniques
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23:13:06 <fizzie> I've updated the OEIS interwiki prefix. (By just resetting the list to the current default, after eyeballing the diff.)
23:13:35 <fizzie> (I don't know of a page with an [[oeis:...]] link though.)
23:15:14 <ais523> we use interwikis to Wikipedia occasionally, but that's about it I think
23:15:34 <ais523> (I've assumed that the "wikipedia:" prefix has to be visible on those, just like links to userspace)
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04:24:00 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107207&oldid=107189 * Vandlen't * (+81) Changed page source.
04:25:17 <esolangs> [[Vandalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107208&oldid=107190 * SpaceByte * (+7)
04:26:20 <esolangs> [[Vandalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107209&oldid=107208 * SpaceByte * (-7)
04:28:39 <esolangs> [[User:Vandlen't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107210&oldid=107207 * Vandlen't * (+81) Changed page source.
04:28:45 <esolangs> [[Vandalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107211&oldid=107209 * SpaceByte * (+7)
04:29:54 <esolangs> [[Vandalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107212&oldid=107211 * SpaceByte * (-7)
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15:03:48 <esolangs> [[LaserFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107213&oldid=98292 * Joaozin003 * (-8)
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15:12:45 <wib_jonas> TIL in SQL syntax that "LIMIT 50", to restrict a select statement to return only the first 50 rows in the order give by its ORDER BY, is spelled in MS SQL as "OFFSET 0 ROW FETCH NEXT 50 ROW ONLY". It seems like none of the words or parts of that spelling is optional, so I'm not just cheating by adding extra nop words.
15:14:41 <wib_jonas> There's also an alternate MS SQL syntax "TOP 50", but you put that after "SELECT and before the list of columns to be selected, with no separator, so you have two expressions adjacent to each other with no separator, which is error-prone and will make it even harder than usual in MS SQL to find out what the syntax error in your query is, so I don't
15:14:41 <wib_jonas> think I'll use it. And no, you can't just write "TOP 50 ROWS" to have a separator.
15:15:20 <wib_jonas> Also while DO is a keyword in some SQLs, PLEASE apparently isn't yet.
15:20:25 <wib_jonas> they should have required "OFFSET 0 ROW BUT PLEASE FETCH NEXT 50 ROW ONLY SO USERS PAGE THROUGH UNNECESSARILY SHORT WINDOWS OF DATA ON MY WEBPAGE TO SERVE MORE ADS" as the syntax so that SQL is readable
15:20:39 <fizzie> That sounds a little like one of those window definitions.
15:20:53 <fizzie> ROWS BETWEEN UNBOUNDED PRECEDING AND 5 FOLLOWING EXCLUDE CURRENT ROW and so on.
15:24:17 <wib_jonas> in a saner version of SQL, most of those words would be optional, like [OFFSET 0 [ROW|ROWS]] FETCH [NEXT|FIRST] 50 [ROW|ROWS] [ONLY]. MS SQL allows the alternate keywords, but not omitting any of them.
15:26:05 <wib_jonas> (they should have added more synonyms, so SEEK 0 ROWS ACQUIRE FIRST 50 ROWS MERELY works too)\
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15:35:33 <wib_jonas> SQL should gain some Intercal features, they're a good combination in syntax and arcanness of rules. REINSTATE UPDATING for example, but more importantly randomization percentages so you can make constraints that are enforced only 90% of the time, or triggers that trigger only 10% of the time.
15:39:34 <wib_jonas> also new conflict handling strategies: INSERT OR FORGET and INSERT OR RESUME
15:51:51 <int-e> Well I hope they're having fun.
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15:56:41 <FireFly> wib_jonas: "select top x ..." is what I've heard of/seen done before, at least
15:57:12 <FireFly> SQL is possibly the one spec that is even less standardised than IRC lol
15:57:31 <FireFly> in that there is a standard and everyone promptly ignores it and reality doesn't match it very well
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16:09:54 <wib_jonas> FireFly: as far as I understand there's a standard and implementations mostly follow it, but the standard specifies so few features that everyone needs to use lots of extensions. Imagine if you wish the C standard with its standard library, plus a thousand vendor libraries.
16:11:36 <FireFly> I guess something like that, though I think there's also spec things that some implementations just diverged on early and now that ecosystem is set in its ways
16:12:02 <FireFly> I guess there's less of like, "library code useful between implementations" compared to conventional programming languages
16:12:50 <wib_jonas> and then https://xkcd.com/927/ I guess
16:16:28 <esolangs> [[User:CappyIsCrappy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107214&oldid=97395 * Joaozin003 * (+34)
16:17:29 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107215&oldid=107041 * Joaozin003 * (+40) /* Links */
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17:00:09 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107216&oldid=107003 * Mujk * (+64) /* language */
17:02:38 <esolangs> [[Multidodecagony]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107217&oldid=106061 * Joaozin003 * (+0) /* I/O commands */
17:03:05 <esolangs> [[Multidodecagony]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107218&oldid=107217 * Joaozin003 * (+27)
17:20:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Snowflake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107219&oldid=76041 * Joaozin003 * (+96) /* Is there a version of this without interpreter-self-modification? */ new section
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19:58:15 <esolangs> [[XY problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107220&oldid=107203 * Hakerh400 * (-948)
20:01:40 <zzo38> I think that they should allow to abbreviate "ROWS BETWEEN UNBOUNDED PRECEDING AND UNBOUNDED FOLLOWING" as "ALL ROWS", but they don't.
20:27:47 <esolangs> [[SideStacks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107221&oldid=105175 * Myoitzi * (+0)
21:05:27 <esolangs> [[Shader state]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107222&oldid=101103 * Joaozin003 * (+8) Added WIP template
21:54:20 <zzo38> You can make triggers that only trigger 10% of the time in SQL if you use WHEN RANDOM(). However, being able to ABSTAIN and REINSTATE might sometimes be useful, including to prevent all triggers from firing; being able to specify this as a part of the statement causing the triggers to fire (so that it doesn't fire) might be the way to be done.
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03:53:07 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107223&oldid=105105 * Zzo38 * (+76) They did actually manage to find the source code of ZZT, even though they thought it was lost
04:31:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * New user account
04:35:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107224&oldid=107205 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+170) /* Introductions */
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14:32:55 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1276.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:53:06 <int-e> Oh no, there's a DLC for Bonfire Peaks.
15:01:34 <int-e> But only 1/3 complete... I'll wait.
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17:51:57 <river> bonfire peaks is good
18:04:27 <esolangs> [[ButWhy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107225 * Rehydratedmango * (+2111) ButWhy created
18:04:52 <esolangs> [[User:Rehydratedmango]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107226&oldid=105959 * Rehydratedmango * (+13)
18:06:42 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107227&oldid=107061 * Rehydratedmango * (+13) ButWhy added
18:10:08 <esolangs> [[Object oriented Lambda Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107228 * Joaozin003 * (+1057) Created page with "'''Object-oriented Lambda Calculus''' is an esolang created by [[User:Joaozin003]] which extends [[Lambda-calculus]] by adding classes. == Classes == Just like functions, classes are anonymous, but their members are referred to by name. To d
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20:01:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107229&oldid=107227 * Joaozin003 * (+38) /* O */
20:01:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107230&oldid=107229 * Joaozin003 * (+0) /* O */
20:02:27 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107231&oldid=107215 * Joaozin003 * (+75)
20:09:20 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107232&oldid=107231 * Joaozin003 * (+45) /* Other Links */
20:12:52 <esolangs> [[Object oriented Lambda Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107233&oldid=107228 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) Categories
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21:31:49 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107234&oldid=107059 * Rphii * (+1) /* Commands */
21:53:44 <esolangs> [[Design coder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107235&oldid=106973 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+384)
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23:54:58 <zzo38> There are many things about SQLite that could have better be designed differently, I think. I made a list: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/better_sqlite What are your opinion of such a thing, please?
00:10:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: let me go through that point by point. (1) Only byte strings => the doc mentions it in very few places, but sqlite3 actually guarantees that you can just use any byte string in strings just fine as long as you don't use any of the utf-16-related functionality. (2) Separate the file format => I don't really see what remains in the core if you remove the file format. You can replace basically all
00:10:19 <b_jonas> parts but the file format, though there are defaults. (3) Allow existing file descriptors => you can kind of do that with the vfs feature. It's tricky, because sqlite3 needs to be able to open temporary files for the things listead at https://sqlite.org/tempfiles.html , but if you define how to do that in the vfs then you can use a descriptor. (4) Recursive triggers => there's a pragma for that. it's
00:10:25 <b_jonas> not the default only for compatibility, because enabling it could break old databases that rely on no recursive triggers, but you probably always want to enable them in newly designed databases.
00:14:15 <zzo38> About byte strings, while it does guarantee that, the string handling functions assume Unicode and can break unless you use a cast. You can override them using sqlite3_create_function, but then some optimizations will be disabled, such as the LENGTH optimization (which should work for text if they measure bytes, but currently is only available for blobs)
00:15:07 <zzo38> Also, perhaps I was a bit unclear because I think that the file format should still remain in the core, but be separated, like how the core includes a default VFS but you can replace that too.
00:15:28 <b_jonas> (5) Better blobs => for short blobs, you could write write custom SQL functions for this. for long blobs you're screwed because the file format stores long rows in a linked list so you can't random access into the blob, only read it in sequence. for byte sequences from numbers there's now a new built-in function unhex.
00:16:27 <b_jonas> "the string handling functions assume Unicode" => no, at least no the ones like substr and replace and lower, I believe the guarantee applies to those too.
00:17:34 <zzo38> SUBSTR does assume Unicode, but LOWER doesn't.
00:18:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you replace the file format then which part of sqlite3 do you want to keep? the page cache and atomic update mechanism? you can probably implement those if you can implement a file format, unless perhaps you want to make a multi-database atomic update mixed with normal sqlite3 format.
00:18:33 <zzo38> I know about the new UNHEX function. Unfortunately, it is a bit messy way to do it. You can use UNHEX(FORMAT('%02x',...)) I suppose, but that isn't realy the cleanest way to do it.
00:18:54 <b_jonas> oh, you're right about substr, sorry
00:19:05 <b_jonas> yeah, you may need a different function instead of that
00:19:05 <zzo38> One part of SQLite that would be kept if the file format is replaced is the SQL parser, of course.
00:20:11 <b_jonas> (6) preparing multiple SQL statements in a single object => sure, and then next you'll ask for a full programming language with conditionals and variables to preserve between statements. I think sqlite just doesn't want to go there because it's a slippery slope.
00:20:22 <b_jonas> even triggers are scary enough for that
00:20:26 <zzo38> Also, even if you do substitute your own file format implementation, you can still call the standard ones from your own ones, e.g. if you want to store some tables in different files, or other uses you might have for doing this.
00:21:13 <zzo38> (or if you want to add functions in between for profiling, or add your own locking/replication/etc; it is less messy to do that way than using the VFS to do it, in some cases)
00:21:14 <b_jonas> (7) Don't cause PRAGMA to have effect on prepare => fair, but possibly also hard to change now because it would break existing programs
00:21:46 <zzo38> Most of what I wrote would break existing programs, which is why one that does what I mention should not be called "SQLite 3"
00:23:12 <b_jonas> (8) inline journaling => sure, that could be useful, but note that you'd have to do it not just for the journal but for most of the temp files in https://sqlite.org/tempfiles.html to be thorough, except perhaps for multi-database atomic update
00:23:30 <b_jonas> but that would definitely be an improvement
00:23:48 <b_jonas> I guess even if you only did it for the journal so that you can't accidentally corrupt your database by copying without the journal
00:25:03 <zzo38> About multi-database atomic update, I think that is a problem with the operating system design, actually. (I do have ideas about operating system design too, including the idea of how to improve this.)
00:27:13 <b_jonas> (9) "Don't make inherent use of the local timezone" => I can't really answer that, I haven't much studied how sqlite3's time functions work, I mostly just assume that when I want to store times I use my own preferred time functions, since I need those regardless of database
00:28:19 <b_jonas> (10) SQL functions for packing and unpacking the binary record format => no opinion on this
00:29:26 <zzo38> You can override the determiniation of the current time using the VFS functions, but you cannot override the determination of the local timezone (except by using an undocumented test feature). This doesn't make sense, I think.
00:30:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but that's kind of because they don't want to add an extra dependency, and the time functions in the C standard library are limited in this respect
00:31:40 <b_jonas> so if you want to throw in the timezone database or libicu in your program you can do with custom functions in your extension, but it's probably not worth to add it into the sqlite3 core
00:33:03 <b_jonas> I assume if I need date functions I wouldn't do them in sqlite3, except for comparing times so you can do a range query with an index, and for thatif you can choose a sensible format that's compatible with the built-in comparisons
00:33:53 <b_jonas> so basically either store the dates as numbers, or as strings or blobs but make sure they're big-endian then, or (unlikely) as strings with a custom comparison function
00:34:17 <zzo38> I agree that they should not add an extra dependency. However, doing so is unnecessary, anyways. Currently it uses localtime_r, or an undocumented testing feature (see the definition of osLocalTime is SQLite). If you want to write your own using only documented features, you will have to reimplement the date/time functions, and if you do that, you can't have the behaviour of keeping the time per statement, either.
00:35:31 <b_jonas> and maybe throw in a custom function for the current time for if you want them into a column default value, I think you can call custom functions in a default value
00:35:56 <zzo38> My proposal would probably make the implementation simpler rather than more complicated, if it is done properly.
00:36:30 <b_jonas> sure, but they can't remove the existing time functions
00:37:10 <b_jonas> and they're probably not so big as to be worth to conditionally omit from your compiled version
00:38:39 <b_jonas> "keeping the time per statement" => wait, what do you mean?
00:38:42 <zzo38> It depends on localtime_r already. If made a part of the VFS, then the core no longer depends on the date/time functions of C. This can be done as an enhancement to existing SQLite. However, my document was mainly about making a new one instead (which might share some of the code from SQLite, but it would be something different from SQLite).
00:39:27 <b_jonas> oh, you mean sqlite3 should have callbacks that you can override for handling timezones? that could be done compatibly perhaps
00:40:44 <zzo38> The SQL date/time functions have a special handling, as described by: "The 'now' argument to date and time functions always returns exactly the same value for multiple invocations within the same sqlite3_step() call."
00:42:24 <zzo38> But, yes it can be done compatibly; just by adding a new function to the VFS interface (and incrementing the version number of that structure). (Currently, it can be done by using sqlite3_test_control, but that is undocumented and can be changed in future)
00:42:51 <b_jonas> ok, that sounds logical, adding such callbacks to the vfs structure
00:45:17 <b_jonas> oh, you want a function that makes a blob from a list of numbers that give each byte?
00:46:13 <b_jonas> and substr is fair too, you might want a function that slices a string by byte index
00:48:05 <b_jonas> these are somewhat different from what changes I'd like to see, but some of them are interesting indeed
00:48:48 <zzo38> OK, what are your ideas of changes?
00:50:10 <zzo38> What kind of changes that you would like to see?
00:53:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: one thing I'd like to see but might be kind of hard to design is aggregate indexes. the goal of these would be that you can query for a range that's already consecutive in an index the sum of another column for which the sum is indexed, or, in general, an aggregate of that column by some custom aggregate function. not any aggregate function works for this, it would need a new extended interface
00:53:26 <b_jonas> for aggregate functions that support it, though most of the time you'd just use one of {sum, total, min, max} which the core would have to extend. the implementation would cache in each intermediate node of the b-tree of the index the aggregate of that the rows under it.
00:54:48 <zzo38> Actually, it is something that I had thought of too. (as well as being able to support this for virtual tables) However, I am not sure how difficult such a thing is.
00:55:08 <b_jonas> only picking the right interface for extended aggregate functions is tricky, so it can do aggregate that depends on multiple columns, or aggregates with tricky types, like tracking both the count and average and standard deviation, or the same but weighted by another column, etc
00:55:25 <b_jonas> oh right, it's {count, sum, total, min, max}, count must absolutely be supported but that's the easiest one
00:55:46 <b_jonas> this definitely isn't easy to design properly, but it's also something that is hard to do anywhere but at the database level
01:00:21 <zzo38> However, some kinds of virtual tables might be able to much more easily calculate some aggregate functions, though.
01:00:24 <b_jonas> I'd also like some kind of indexes that aren't trees sorted by a key, but the index itself keeps the order, and you can insert anywhere in the order, so when you insert you have to specify (presumably in some virtual column for this) which item you want to insert before or after, or to insert at the very beginning or very end of that index (perhaps you could also set a default).
01:00:54 <b_jonas> and of course this would be the most useful when you combine it with aggregate columsn in those indexes
01:01:12 <b_jonas> but it's not clear how to best set up the interface for this
01:01:42 <zzo38> I agree, it is not clear how to set up the interface for this
01:01:56 <b_jonas> persumably you'd give the primary key of an existing row in each magic column associated with such an index, plus a before/after flag, and perhaps you give NULL for very beginning/end
01:02:58 <b_jonas> but you'd also need some interface to query the next or previous row in the order of such an index
01:03:24 <b_jonas> and possibly even a way to move a whole range of rows to a different place
01:06:38 <zzo38> It seems to me that it is probably too difficult to make aggregate indexes for ordinary tables, but aggregate indexes for virtual tables is probably more useful, and might be easier to implement, potentially.
01:12:52 <zzo38> (I might also later add stuff to this file, and change existing stuff, too.)
01:15:47 <zzo38> I also had ideas about operating system designs. For example, I had decided to include capability-based security including proxy capabilities, and atomic locking and transactions of multiple files (or arbitrary capabilities) at once (some combinations cannot be implemented though, but some do work), hypertext file system, etc.
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02:40:57 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107236&oldid=107234 * Rphii * (+0) /* Truth machine */
03:35:50 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107237&oldid=107236 * Rphii * (+2) /* Commands */
05:45:37 <esolangs> [[Aardvark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107238&oldid=104859 * DanielDG * (+114) /* Infinite triangle */
05:46:54 <esolangs> [[Aardvark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107239&oldid=107238 * DanielDG * (-10) /* Infinite triangle */
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06:05:16 <esolangs> [[Aardvark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107240&oldid=107239 * DanielDG * (+705) /* Syntax */
06:09:58 <esolangs> [[Danicb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107241&oldid=107064 * Squidmanescape * (+2065) /* Under-the-Hood */
06:14:31 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107242&oldid=101627 * Squidmanescape * (+162) /* My Languages */
06:25:53 <esolangs> [[Aardvark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107243&oldid=107240 * DanielDG * (+8) /* Grammar */
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08:51:29 <esolangs> [[While true (cat)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107244 * Tesolang * (+250) uhhh what do i write here
08:52:04 <esolangs> [[While true (cat)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107245&oldid=107244 * Tesolang * (+1) fixed a little
08:53:33 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107246&oldid=106547 * Tesolang * (+23) added while true {cat}
08:54:41 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107247&oldid=107246 * Tesolang * (+17) fixed while true {cat}
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12:04:37 <esolangs> [[Correct Syntax Error]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107248&oldid=79952 * Joaozin003 * (+4) Fixed typos
12:16:08 <esolangs> [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107249&oldid=79464 * Joaozin003 * (+295) Added wavy arrows to commands
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13:31:13 <esolangs> [[User:Tesolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107250&oldid=107195 * Tesolang * (+39) added while true {cat}
13:33:36 <esolangs> [[Lesser known programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107251&oldid=42581 * Tesolang * (+40) added while true {cat}
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14:34:49 <river> I didn't realize that hofstatder coined the name quine
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15:18:50 <Riviera> how would one "realize" that? :P
15:19:20 <int-e> by reading about it
15:21:41 <int-e> Or possibly by reading Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach, where he explains how Quine came up with quotation as a mechanism for self-reference, and calls that procedure quining.
15:23:02 <int-e> (I think; I only have that book in a german translation.)
15:24:13 <int-e> Riviera: But maybe your process of realization is different? :P
15:24:38 <int-e> Or maybe you're playing with an alternative meaning of "realize". It's hard to say.
15:29:16 <int-e> (staring into the abyss)
16:11:18 <river> i mean, tell me something that has happened
16:11:48 <river> its a separate topic
16:13:25 <int-e> https://research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/March2023.html ...for once, the bonus problem does appear to be quite a bit harder than the primary one.
16:13:46 <int-e> river: I hope that'll make you happy.
16:14:14 <int-e> fungot: Where are you today?
16:14:19 <HackEso> 1/1:881) <quintopia> is there a way to tag things on wikipedia as "wtf this makes no sense"? <elliott> quintopia: {{featured article}} \ 681) <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
16:14:20 <river> why is it harder when the digits are added to the left?
16:14:56 <int-e> Probably because fewer digits are excluded modulo 2 and 5.
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16:19:57 <fizzie> I was doing some systems maintenance (migrated everything to ZFS for easier backups via replication, after the previous thing I was using became... problematic), that's probably what happened to fungot.
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16:20:58 <fizzie> fungot: Where were you?
16:20:59 <fungot> fizzie: why don't you upload the selection somewhere with the source that is.)) the lexical variable x is bound to
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16:41:53 <fungot> b_jonas: that's only in -current, works fine building there at least anyone on here that i wrote myself, which was
16:43:12 <oren> Testing the new 100 gigabyte BD RE s recently
16:44:48 <oren> turns out that windows explorer corrupts them
16:45:06 <oren> but if yo write to them with Total Commander they work great
17:10:12 <esolangs> [[While true (cat)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107252&oldid=107245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) Categories
17:11:29 <FireFly> bluray disk something format?
17:11:42 <FireFly> 100G sounds about right for bluray
17:12:54 <esolangs> [[Jellang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107253&oldid=107196 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+141) Add link and categories
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17:29:44 <fizzie> Speaking of backups, I'm sad to report that there's no longer a copy of esolangs.org in an underground vault in the Finnish bedrock.
17:30:24 <fizzie> (Our bank in Finland is relocating that office, and they're discontinuing the service.)
17:33:36 <fizzie> To compensate, there's now an (encrypted) copy within a moderately secure office facility of a multinational technology corporation, which is at least something.
17:34:01 <int-e> oh no, evicted from the dungeon
17:46:30 <b_jonas> there's a copy in a hard disk in my computer, but the bedrock is hard to reach here, Hungary is all covered with thick soft and fertile agricultural soil. ideal for crops of grains and oily seeds, not perfect for burying backup hard disks.
17:47:00 <b_jonas> if you want an underground vault, you have to make walls from concrete
17:48:48 <fizzie> To be entirely honest, I don't know the specifics of the construction of the one we used to have a box in. I just assumed, since Finland is pretty rocky. But they didn't leave any of that exposed, sadly.
17:50:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DinoNuggets2700 * New user account
17:50:44 <b_jonas> there are bank vaults here but they're expensive
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17:54:12 <fizzie> This used to cost ~5€/month (for a slightly-over-A4-footprint by 50mm locker) which was covered by the "bonus" program thing.
17:54:37 <fizzie> But banks in general in Finland have been no longer offering these as they close down offices and so on.
17:57:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107254&oldid=107224 * DinoNuggets2700 * (+192)
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18:35:50 <b_jonas> fungot, besides "ajar" what's the most common english word that starts with a unique two letter string?
18:35:50 <fungot> b_jonas: i figured that out) document/ content management system?
18:40:02 <b_jonas> dude, do you think I'm going to reply to a spam for a mere 3_000_000 dollars that I've won? have you programmed this spambot two years ago before the big inflation? 3_000_000 dollars isn't worth enough to lift my fingers now.
18:40:43 <b_jonas> this is like that other spam that claimed that I have to pay 3 HUF of import tax for my package
18:51:19 <FireFly> forint, the currency for iterating over whole numbers?
18:54:31 <oren> BDRE is "blu ray recordable/erasable"
18:55:19 <oren> they decided that RW for Re-Writable was bad for some reason and changed it
18:57:07 <oren> normal size BD-RE are 25 gb for single layer and 50 gb for 2-layer. Sony came out with this new BD-RE XL format which has 3 layers and 33.3 GB per layer
18:57:43 <oren> the BDRE-XL are basically the rewritable version of Ultra-HD bluray movie disks
18:59:58 <zzo38> "Recordable/erasable" does make sense if that is what it is, compared with disks that are rewritable without being erased first, I think
19:00:54 <oren> but uhh the issue is that these disks *are* in fact, random-access writable
19:01:30 <oren> If you format them as UDF disks instead of "mastered burn"
19:02:42 <esolangs> [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107255&oldid=107249 * Joaozin003 * (+141) /* Commands/arrows */
19:03:16 <oren> It's really weird. For years I thought that you had to erase entire disk before you could reuse space. But recently I tried it and it just works.
19:06:27 <zzo38> If that is the case, then perhaps they should call it "RAM" (like "DVD-RAM") instead of "RW" or "RE".
19:07:29 <oren> The funny thing is that, there is DVD-RAM already. but somehow UDF file system makes RW disks work the same as RAM or something? Maybe it's just that the UDF technology didnt exist when these thigns were named
19:11:56 <esolangs> [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107256&oldid=107255 * Joaozin003 * (+190) Added truth machine
19:12:26 <esolangs> [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107257&oldid=107256 * Joaozin003 * (+2) Added comments
19:14:27 <b_jonas> so does a rewritable disk cost less than an equal capacity micro-SD card anymore?
19:17:56 <oren> per gigabyte, flash memory is still twice as expensive
19:18:34 <oren> hard disks are much cheaper per gig tho
19:18:46 <esolangs> [[P]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107258&oldid=90710 * Joaozin003 * (+0) USE == INSTEAD OF === YOU DUMBOS!!!!!!!!!!!
19:19:50 <FireFly> do bluray disks go down in price, or are they pretty much fixed? I don't imagine there's that much demand and R&D into them compared to flash storage
19:20:13 <FireFly> but maybe there's still enough improvements happening to affect prices
19:20:18 <oren> they've gone down quite a bit since I bought these
19:21:19 <oren> The 100GB ones are new and hadn't fully ramped up production I think
19:22:30 <oren> I think the unit cost of the disks is mostly licensing
19:23:07 <oren> they're made of similar material and similar production process to a CD-RW
19:24:16 <oren> One day maybe we'll get those holographic disks with 3-dimensional recording that keep getting rumoured
19:26:54 <oren> the main reason I like the idea of optical disks is that the uhh data storage is completely separate from the reader/writer hardware
19:28:57 <oren> IoMega Jaz/Zip is the same thing but for hard disks but we don't have those for any more than 1 GB
19:37:48 <zzo38> I still think that for the purpose of making backups, WORM disks are better
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19:49:29 <FireFly> is that "write once, read many"?
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20:26:59 <fizzie> I think the thing with optical media is, they're not permanent (a lot of the random CDs I burned are no longer readable), and if you just stick them into a box you won't ever learn whether they've rotted away or not, and at least personally I'm far too lazy to have a periodic go-through of all of them.
20:27:35 <fizzie> When it's a hard drive connected to a computer, it's easy enough to have an automated scrub to verify all the checksums, and then swap the drive when it goes bad.
20:28:33 <b_jonas> FireFly: for DVDs, you can't drive the price of disks down anymore because most of the price is taxes
20:28:49 <b_jonas> for Blueray I don't know, I never got into those
20:29:21 <b_jonas> "holographic disks with 3-dimensional recording" => the EVD?
20:30:50 <fizzie> We did a ferry trip once or twice with school friends from Helsinki to Tallinn to buy spindles of DVD-R's from a sketchy retailer in the middle of nowhere, because in Estonia you didn't have to pay the "media fee" to the local copyright mafia.
20:30:56 <fizzie> Or at least it was smaller if you did.
20:31:20 <b_jonas> from https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=874 and next strop. "The EVD has the capacity to hold the entire internet on it."
20:32:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh! that's a really good excuse that you can tell your parents about your drinking trip
20:33:13 <fizzie> Turns out Finland has removed that particular fee from retail prices in 2015 anyway, so it no longer works.
20:34:10 <fizzie> It was always a bit controversial, because you had to pay it for all kinds of storage media, even when you weren't planning to use it for personal copying of copyrighted works.
20:34:11 <b_jonas> wait, were you buying blank DVDs (as opposed to CDs) as a high school student? I first saw a DVD writer right shortly after I graduated high school.
20:35:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, but also people don't buy many DVDs anymore so you don't need that excuse, and you're not so young that you need to tell an excuse to your parents about a drinking trip, so it's ok
20:35:45 <fizzie> Maybe they could have been CD-R's? I'm not entirely sure. I feel like they were DVD's, though. Because I had like a small handful of well-known-brand discs, and then a bunch of these "PRINCO" ones from that trip.
20:37:16 <fizzie> Can't really think of a good way to figure out when I got a DVD burner, I haven't got archived receipts from that far back.
20:38:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: it doesn't need to be your DVD burner, it could be a classmate's DVD burner and they burn DVDs for all the geeks in the class for a small fee
20:38:16 <b_jonas> only it's CDs that worked that way back when I was in high school
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20:43:23 <fizzie> I got out of high school in the spring of 2002, at which point DVD-R and DVD-RAM were already in the market, but DVD+R was just coming out.
20:47:53 <b_jonas> "in the market" sure, but too expensive for normal people to own.
20:54:17 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107259&oldid=106854 * DinoNuggets2700 * (+186) I added an entry to the Silly Ideas section.
21:01:32 <fizzie> Perhaps that's right. I browsed through the 2001 Radio Shack catalog (the first thing I could think of that'd have old prices for consumer electronics), and it's listing a single DVD-RAM disc at $49.99 (tagged [New]), and no DVD-R products at all.
21:01:56 <fizzie> Then it was probably cheaper CD-R's that trip was for.
21:03:44 <b_jonas> well *-RAM was always too expensive
21:12:13 <oren> I go through them to check for errors every few years- I have DVD-R's from 2004 that still work
21:12:54 <FireFly> fizzie: oh you had that silliness too around storage media huh
21:13:39 <FireFly> same in sweden, also affecting things like mobile phone storage.. I don't know if it's still the case though, they don't really have much of an argument there anymore with how popular streaming services are nowadays I'd say
21:13:53 <oren> I don't know what causes some people's burned disks to go bad, but it might be that I store them carefully
21:18:36 <oren> Actually, I have something older- A CD-R with "starcraft brood war" on it which still runs
21:20:02 <zzo38> What I read is that storing recorded DVDs vertically in the dark is helpful; I do not know how much that will help, though.
21:31:29 <oren> I don't think the orientation matters much as long as it's dry, cool and out of sunlight
21:34:55 <oren> I have several tools for scanning disks entire surface for errors
21:35:20 <oren> but most of the time they only complain if the disk is physically scratched
21:36:00 <oren> I've heard of disk rot and seen examples of it online but I've never seen any disks I own rot
21:42:15 <oren> the only time I saw corrosion was when the disk had apparently been covered in coffee
21:42:42 <oren> even then, the data was fully recovered
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21:48:58 <fizzie> Could have something to do from where and how your discs are made, I guess. I think most of what I had I could still read, when few years back I made copies of them onto a hard drive.
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22:37:04 <oren> one of the oldest CD-R's I have is a 240i recording of star wars 2 from someone who snuck into he theatre with a camera
22:38:12 <oren> Its survived the last 20 years completely watchable... well... playable
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02:10:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107260&oldid=107254 * XKCD Wrong Times Table * (+162)
02:11:24 <oren> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/719544094782652416/1081760572158259200/starwarsmeme.webm
02:13:35 <oren> Here's the clip in "VCD recorded in the thetre" quality level
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11:05:22 <river> Any thoughts about AI?
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11:55:28 <int-e> Ooh, gcc's built-in vector types change comparisons to produce masks rather than 0/1 values. I didn't know.
11:56:55 <int-e> e.g. http://paste.debian.net/1273002/
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17:22:04 <esolangs> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107261&oldid=98654 * Uilebheist * (+114) /* External resources */ Adding newly-created code drop of latest CLC-INTERCAL
17:27:43 <esolangs> [[Assignless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107262&oldid=80738 * Joaozin003 * (-88) Use WIP template instead of manually typed text
17:28:35 <esolangs> [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107263&oldid=107257 * Joaozin003 * (+4) /* Truth machine */
17:33:08 <esolangs> [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107264&oldid=107263 * Joaozin003 * (+36) /* Syntax */
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17:40:44 <esolangs> [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107265&oldid=107264 * Joaozin003 * (-36) Undo revision 107264 by [[Special:Contributions/Joaozin003|Joaozin003]] ([[User talk:Joaozin003|talk]])
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18:43:30 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107266 * Joaozin003 * (+2113) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Down the Mountain''' is an esolang made by [[User:Joaozin003|]], in which the code is a mountain for a ski to slide down. == Syntax == There is no syntax. Indentation doesn't matter. For example, if your program looks like this: S x y y.x. o
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18:44:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107267&oldid=107230 * Joaozin003 * (+24) /* D */
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18:52:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck, but every + is replaced with the bee movie script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107268&oldid=51286 * Joaozin003 * (+178) /* YOU CAN CHEAT!!! */ new section
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19:55:14 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107269&oldid=107232 * Joaozin003 * (+55) /* My Esolangs */
19:56:15 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107270&oldid=107266 * Joaozin003 * (+26) /* Ski movement */
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20:19:06 <int-e> fungot: Are all numbers crunchy?
20:19:06 <fungot> int-e: we have 16 people here. although i was aware there was a rebuttal, were you thinking of only installing ed? google tells me http://www.ai.mit.edu/shivers/ sre.txt
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21:50:34 <esolangs> [[Electra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107271&oldid=107008 * DolphyWind * (+0)
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22:08:43 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107272&oldid=107247 * PartehTheEsolangDev * (+86)
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22:09:49 <esolangs> [[FunnyEsolangLol]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107273 * PartehTheEsolangDev * (+124) Created page with "'''FunnyEsolangLol''' is an Esoteric Programming Language made by PartehTheEsolangDev. '''Adding actual information soon'''"
22:16:08 <esolangs> [[FunnyEsolangLol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107274&oldid=107273 * PartehTheEsolangDev * (-124) Blanked the page
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22:17:08 <esolangs> [[FunnyEsolangLol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107275&oldid=107274 * PartehTheEsolangDev * (+50)
22:21:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:PartehTheEsolangDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107276&oldid=101954 * PartehTheEsolangDev * (+2)
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00:16:09 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107277&oldid=107270 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* External resources */ Category
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05:05:02 <esolangs> [[The Code of the Seven]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107278&oldid=54247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+202) Categories
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13:54:23 <fizzie> Why is there no Unicode symbol in that block for tiled windows, only overlapping ones?
13:54:33 <fizzie> (No, 🖽 does not count.)
13:54:49 <fizzie> As a tiled window manager user, I feel slighted.
13:55:24 <HackEso> [U+1F5BD FRAME WITH TILES]
13:55:44 <int-e> That... seems close enough to me :-P
13:57:24 <fizzie> It's rendered like a picture frame. At least here.
13:57:53 <fizzie> With like a wavy frame thing.
13:57:53 <int-e> surely that's just a matter of choosing the right theme
13:59:22 <fizzie> `` unidecode 🕴 # what's the use case for this one?
13:59:24 <HackEso> [U+1F574 MAN IN BUSINESS SUIT LEVITATING]
13:59:33 <fizzie> Okay, that's enough browsing character sheets.
14:05:12 <int-e> https://emojipedia.org/person-in-suit-levitating/ suggests that it started out as a weird exclamation mark. So the shadow is a dot.
14:07:04 <int-e> Oh well, a sin of the 90s entombed in Unicode. Or enshrined, your choice.
14:45:34 <FireFly> clearly NO PIRACY is simply a convenient warning sign for ships to put up on their deck to discourage thieves from boarding their vessel
14:46:40 <int-e> Wait until they learn that once they steal the vessel they can remove the signs!
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14:53:37 <FireFly> <fizzie> Why is there no Unicode symbol in that block for tiled windows, only overlapping ones? <- not exactly proper use, but I've used the ideographic description characters for illustrating different tiling window layouts before, heh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideographic_Description_Characters_(Unicode_block)
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17:00:35 <esolangs> [[Funge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107279 * Tesolang * (+22) redirect
17:03:07 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107280&oldid=103175 * Tesolang * (-20) edited to be simpler
17:04:41 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107281&oldid=107280 * Tesolang * (+6) uhh
17:05:25 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107282&oldid=107281 * Tesolang * (+7) why do i have to edit the page so much
17:17:06 <fizzie> I'm a little sad at losing the backwards string literal, it's so emblematic of Befunge.
17:28:14 <esolangs> [[CBA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107283 * Tesolang * (+197) uhhh
17:28:45 <esolangs> [[User:Tesolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107284&oldid=107250 * Tesolang * (+9) added CBA
17:30:36 <esolangs> [[CBA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107285&oldid=107283 * Tesolang * (+28) added unimplemented category
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18:34:02 <esolangs> [[CBA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107286&oldid=107285 * Tesolang * (+58) added a new category and some text in the category
18:53:40 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107287&oldid=107277 * Joaozin003 * (+98) /* Ski movement */
18:54:39 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107288&oldid=107287 * Joaozin003 * (+67) /* Ski movement */
19:04:43 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107289&oldid=107288 * Joaozin003 * (+149)
19:09:33 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107290&oldid=107289 * Joaozin003 * (+18)
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19:27:28 <esolangs> [[User]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107291&oldid=87189 * Otesunki * (+2) fixed typo
19:29:28 <esolangs> [[NonSkip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107292&oldid=102283 * Joaozin003 * (+30) Fixed bad grammar and made editing more convenient
19:32:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107293&oldid=107260 * Mkukiro * (+95)
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19:35:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Papel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107294 * Mkukiro * (+122) Created page with "Did someone ever write programs in this? --~~~~"
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19:36:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107295 * Mkukiro * (+112) Created page with "Is this being still worked on? --~~~~"
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19:50:09 <esolangs> [[User:Mkukiro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107296 * Mkukiro * (+501) Created page with "==== mkukiro ==== Hi, I'm a lonely gender-fluid and aroace type one diabetic living in Italy I'm an esolanger, amigurumi crocheter, artist, programmer, and more and more... I love bread, rice, and purin (if u could eat it) ==== My esolangs ==== Currently working
19:53:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Mkukiro * uploaded "[[File:Mkukiro pfp.jpg]]"
19:54:14 <esolangs> [[User:Mkukiro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107298&oldid=107296 * Mkukiro * (+42)
20:06:33 <esolangs> [[T]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107299&oldid=77365 * Tesolang * (+60) added some text (including {{stub}})
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21:59:51 <esolangs> [[Daydream]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107300&oldid=93662 * Joaozin003 * (+100) Added terms of sequence A
22:01:35 <oren> I have aquired 5 1/4 inch floppy disks and a drive!
22:01:45 <oren> now how to connect this to a modern computer...
22:02:06 <int-e> duct tape and string?
22:02:12 <esolangs> [[Daydream/Terms]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107301 * Joaozin003 * (+1564) Created page with ":''Go back to [[Daydream]]'' 1 0 1 2 4 8 16 32 8 72 144 288 72 648 1296 2592 816 5184 888 12072 24144 48288 96576 193152 72 386376 772752 1535784 3081288 6162576 12325152 24650304 11979040 61279648 121399352 243958648 48790
22:04:20 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107302&oldid=107290 * Joaozin003 * (+27)
22:06:48 <int-e> I guess there are PCI floppy disk controllers? I'm somewhat confused that there seem to be 3 1/2" USB floppy disk drives, but not 5 1/4" ones. I guess the 5 1/4" ones died about 10 years earlier.
22:07:21 <fizzie> I'm sure people have made USB interfaces for 5.25" floppy drives as a hobbyist thing too.
22:07:47 <fizzie> https://decromancer.ooo/greaseweazle/ as the first search hit I landed on.
22:08:14 <int-e> Of course it's also relevant what platform the drive is for, I'm assuming PC but obviously there are a couple others.
22:08:17 <fizzie> I wonder if that name is a reference to the Catweasel, which a friend of mine had.
22:09:45 <fizzie> (That is, a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Computers_Catweasel -- not sure which edition, maybe the ISA card. Which probably isn't all that useful for modern computers either.)
22:10:07 <oren> Tese would have been for a IBM PC
22:10:27 <oren> Probably an "luggable" version
22:11:14 <oren> I also have an old hard disk, it has a weird "card edge" connection on it
22:13:20 <fizzie> Probably one of those MFM drives.
22:17:08 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412 has a 20+34-pin thing, and the drive side is a card-edge thing.
22:17:20 <fizzie> But if it's just got the one 20-pin thing, it's probably not that.
22:18:25 <fizzie> http://www.philipstorr.id.au/pcbook/images/ex3h2.jpg <- looked like that.
22:20:39 <oren> yes, this is extactly what it has
22:26:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Brainfuck, but every + is replaced with the bee movie script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107303&oldid=107268 * Joaozin003 * (-178)
22:26:41 <fizzie> Predates me a little. We had something that was either an XT or an AT machine in the family, but I only got to use it rarely. It had a Prolog interpreter on it for some reason, which I completely failed to understand at the time.
22:28:14 <fizzie> The first computer I actually tinkered with would've been a Hyundai SUPER-386S with 40 (!) megabytes of disk space, which was almost certainly just a boring IDE hard drive.
22:29:24 <int-e> I remember a 70 MB MFM HDD. Full height, of course.
22:29:31 <fizzie> Nobody told me about the other kind of more exciting home computers until later in life. :/
22:30:31 <int-e> It failed at some point in a most amusing way... one of the address bit failed. So you could access half of the sectors and each of them was mapped twice on the disk.
22:30:58 <int-e> I don't know whether it was the drive or the controller, probably the latter, in retrospect.
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23:42:02 <b_jonas> we had a 100 MB hard drive that's taller than the current normal one but still only 3.5 inch wide, not 5.25 inch wide like "full height" apparently means according to the internet
23:45:21 <oren> I managed to power up the drive with my PSU. sounds like a spaceship charging its shields or something
00:46:39 <int-e> That is... a really funny association.
00:47:25 <int-e> (smells like fiction)
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07:30:24 <esolangs> [[Befunge-98]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107304 * Tesolang * (+19) funge redirect
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08:12:53 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107305&oldid=105461 * Tesolang * (+62) added alternative version
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08:13:25 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107306&oldid=107305 * Tesolang * (+2) fixed
09:06:05 <esolangs> [[Daydream]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107307&oldid=107300 * Hakerh400 * (+38) Use Integer instead of Int to prevent overflow
09:08:14 <esolangs> [[Daydream/Terms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107308&oldid=107301 * Hakerh400 * (+1) Formatting
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09:19:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qsriel77 * New user account
09:22:11 <esolangs> [[User:Neither]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107309 * Tesolang * (+55) a
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15:52:42 <esolangs> [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107310&oldid=93888 * Tesolang * (+49) added hello world
15:53:55 <esolangs> [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107311&oldid=107310 * Tesolang * (-49) goodbye
15:54:34 <esolangs> [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107312&oldid=107311 * Tesolang * (+69) Added hello world (for real this time)
15:54:58 <esolangs> [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107313&oldid=107312 * Tesolang * (-18) fixed a bit
15:58:36 <esolangs> [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107314&oldid=107313 * Tesolang * (+76) added purkka.codes interpreter
16:01:49 <wib_jonas> in the Excel power query editor, the toolbar button to join two tables (join in the SQL sense), why the heck is that labeled "Merge Queries"?
16:18:39 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107315&oldid=107282 * Tesolang * (+80) added even shorter version of hello world without string reversion
16:19:09 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107316&oldid=107315 * Tesolang * (+7) edited title
16:19:41 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107317&oldid=107316 * Tesolang * (+2) i think im editing the page too much
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17:15:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NewlightcallsfornewSOUP * New user account
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17:22:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107318&oldid=107293 * NewlightcallsfornewSOUP * (+191) /* Introductions */
17:49:57 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107319&oldid=107302 * Joaozin003 * (+103) /* Memory */
17:50:20 <esolangs> [[Down the Mountain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107320&oldid=107319 * Joaozin003 * (-103) /* Memory */
18:41:27 <lambdabot> I saw ais523 leaving #esolangs 5d 13h 34m 22s ago.
18:43:32 <river> does anyone like using GPT to write programs?
18:44:09 <int-e> No, I prefer debugging my own code to something else's code.
18:47:34 <fizzie> I did have my first actual use of ChatGPT for a real information need just the other day.
18:49:20 <fizzie> I asked it https://zem.fi/tmp/proc.png -- seemed marginally easier to frame the question to it rather than come up with the right sort of keywords.
18:52:26 <river> I found a simple task that it seems to be unable to do
19:16:38 <shachaf> fizzie: Hmm, it doesn't look like the first number in that list is the primary group.
19:30:55 <APic> int-e: Thanks for correcting my Command 😌
19:41:48 <fizzie> shachaf: Heh, I didn't even notice that, since it's not part of what I asked about. Yeah, the numbers look like they're just in ascending order. The primary group is in "Gid" (with all the usual real/effective/saved/fs subtlety).
19:42:04 <fizzie> It sounded so confident! As usual.
20:28:51 <int-e> fungot: is this the future?
20:29:29 <int-e> It's not a good month for fungot, it seems.
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22:04:57 <fizzie> I think this one was just a ping timeout, it just still doesn't properly recover from it.
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22:05:53 <fizzie> fungot: Are you jealous about how all those new LLM's produce much more intelligible text than you do?
22:05:54 <fungot> fizzie: " v v v mul sub sqrt div m set! at all. attempts to look very serious about the math. there are entire treatises on properly printing them for example is a dotted list
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23:50:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JvEso * New user account
23:52:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107321&oldid=107318 * JvEso * (+39) /* Introductions */
23:52:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107322&oldid=107321 * JvEso * (+76) /* Introductions */
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10:36:30 <river> I don't want to be in the room when the 'friendly AI' guys learn about cross compilers
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12:04:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:ITM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107323 * Joaozin003 * (+504) Created page with "== This was made by a kid == Look. 5MB interpreter? I'm sure you misspelled 5KB. ALSO THE BAD GRAMMAR. THERE'S SO MUCH OF IT I WILL WON'T DOCUMENT THEM ALL. ALSO THE "(aka me)" PART. THAT'S STUPID. GO BACK A FEW YEARS LATER AND LOOK AT THIS MESS YOU CREATED. Please,
12:06:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:ITM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107324&oldid=107323 * Joaozin003 * (+17) /* This was made by a kid */
12:31:53 <int-e> (re: esolangs, if you have that ignored)
12:51:58 <fizzie> Yeah, it feels like there's some backstory behind that.
12:52:17 <fizzie> (Although at first I assumed it was the author of the page commenting on their own work.)
13:02:48 <int-e> Somehow the detail that triggers me the most here is "DON'T CREDIT THE ORIGINAL CREATOR, THEY'RE A 100% CERTIFIED *KID*"
13:08:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:ITM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107325&oldid=107324 * Int-e * (+322) So what?
13:10:25 <int-e> so tempting to link to the contributions by User:A
13:10:36 <int-e> But I don't want to be responsible for a heart attack.
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13:11:11 <int-e> Note that I use "contribution" in a purely technical sense :-P
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13:16:47 <FireFly> <int-e> so much anger <- well, eyeing river's message, it might stem from the compilers being cross
13:20:39 <int-e> fungot: why did the chicken cross the road?
13:20:39 <fungot> int-e: there is a computed goto. :) for me, but i could be wrong, of course
13:21:38 <int-e> fungot: With that lack of confidence you'll never replace ChatGPT.
13:21:38 <fungot> int-e: am i? fnord?) anti-aliased red arrows
13:21:55 <FireFly> checks out to me. the chicken crossed the road due to a computed goto
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13:40:23 <river> have you read much by qntm?
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14:29:43 <fizzie> fungot: That made me chuckle out loud.
14:29:44 <fungot> fizzie: please correct error by eliminating programmer... not program. :) thx to forcer and donut too :) i luv this channel twice.
14:34:44 <int-e> Heh, I wonder whether the first part is a direct quote.
14:35:04 <int-e> It gives me zzo38 vibes.
14:36:30 <fizzie> Looks like the very first bit is probably from https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2005-12-15.html#lw
14:36:59 <int-e> Sgeo had a successor?
14:37:14 <int-e> Good enough, thanks for the search :)
14:37:50 <fizzie> Followed by https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2006-08-20.html#ldd for the "programmer... not program" part.
14:38:31 <fizzie> I don't know/remember who forcer/donut were.
14:38:50 <fizzie> That bit seems to be from #scheme.
14:39:11 <fizzie> <Jackal325> hey just saying thx to Riastradh i got S+ thanks again for your help man :) thx to forcer and donut too :) i luv this channel
14:39:32 <fizzie> (Just once, not twice.)
14:39:54 <river> fungot: verdict: GUILTY!
14:39:54 <fungot> river: the last sf novel i think did some assembly... or compiler design. would one or the other. instead, you make it
14:40:25 <fizzie> It should have an ^explain command, then it'd have at least one thing over ChatGPT and its ilk, the capability of it being possible to tell why it says what it says.
14:41:49 <int-e> . o O ( I went on a walk along the Markov chain and this is what I ended up with. )
14:42:42 <int-e> It's basically an n-gram model n about 3, isn't it?
14:42:43 <river> fungot: i like reading sf. very fun
14:42:44 <fungot> river: good, because most routers won't let you do anything interesting. and how well does it rely on? will the sml standard, by the way
14:43:06 <fizzie> "Two trigrams diverged in the model and I— I took the one less weighted by, And that has made all the difference."
14:43:25 <fizzie> It's a variable n, but other than that yes.
14:44:16 <fizzie> And in fact in the default ("irc") style, it might even be a constant n, since I only adopted https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN for training sometime later.
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15:27:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Table]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107326&oldid=105762 * Rdococ * (+149)
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15:59:31 <HackEso> 1/1:1144) <fungot> [...] i also happened to stop working on fffungi for now, it's worth 19 and made by a low-quality digital camera \ 1228) <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
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18:22:58 <b_jonas> ``` grep -RaEi 'arthur|merlin|p[ae]r[cs][ei][vf][ae]l|galahad|lancelot|gawain|bed[ei]vere|yvain' /hackenv/wisdom # do we have any wisdoms on Arthur's court, especially with regards to their foundational contributions to computer science?
18:24:53 <b_jonas> we don't. I'd like to see at least something about how Parseval invented interpreters and Merlin invented oracles
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20:50:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Golang * New user account
20:54:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107327&oldid=107322 * Golang * (+201)
20:58:27 <esolangs> [[User:Golang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107328 * Golang * (+193) Created page with "I'm James. I run a [https://golangprojectstructure.com/ Go-programming website] and I have also created the [https://github.com/theTardigrade/dorklang/ dorklang] esoteric programming language."
21:27:40 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107329 * Golang * (+2016) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=dorklang |author=[[User:Golang]] |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |memsys=[[:Category:Stack-based|Stack-based]] |majorimpl=[https://github.com/theTardigrade/dorklang/ Dorklang interpreter] |files
21:28:18 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107330&oldid=107329 * Golang * (-26)
21:28:51 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107331&oldid=107330 * Golang * (+60)
21:29:21 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107332&oldid=107331 * Golang * (+1)
21:30:29 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107333&oldid=107332 * Golang * (-8)
21:32:21 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107334&oldid=107333 * Golang * (+92) add categories
21:38:58 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107335&oldid=107334 * Golang * (+150) add categories
21:58:18 <esolangs> [[User:Golang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107336&oldid=107328 * Golang * (+93)
22:23:35 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107337&oldid=107335 * Golang * (+636)
22:25:41 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107338&oldid=107337 * Golang * (+34) /* Summing All Integers Between 1 and 1,000,000 */
22:31:27 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107339&oldid=107338 * Golang * (+9) add missing word
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23:39:40 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107340&oldid=107216 * Mujk * (+261)
23:41:47 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107341&oldid=107340 * Mujk * (+35)
23:45:06 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107342&oldid=107341 * Mujk * (+24) /* cat */
23:52:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107343&oldid=107267 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* D */ add
23:54:33 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107344&oldid=107342 * Mujk * (-17)
23:55:27 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107345&oldid=107344 * Mujk * (+0)
23:56:31 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107346&oldid=107345 * Mujk * (-5)
00:00:00 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107347&oldid=107346 * Mujk * (+42)
00:10:57 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107348&oldid=107339 * Golang * (+12) add creator name
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03:37:54 <esolangs> [[Dorklang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107349&oldid=107348 * Golang * (+1) /* Summing All Integers Between 1 and 1,000,000 */
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11:47:57 <esolangs> [[&-/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107350&oldid=107006 * Tesolang * (+25) added implemented category
12:14:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107351&oldid=106234 * Tesolang * (+266) /* base4-base2-text-hexadecimal NCR */ new section
12:16:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107352&oldid=107351 * Tesolang * (+169) added octal version
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14:30:22 <esolangs> [[Literally every golflang ever/Esopage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107353&oldid=106197 * Xyzzy * (+208)
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14:38:34 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1277.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:05:32 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107354 * Fly * (+2391) Created page with "== Introduction == A Simple Language With A Console, is an esoteric programming language created by Fly and it's just, as the name suggests, a simple laguage that can be used in a console made in python 3. == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" !
22:06:14 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107355&oldid=107354 * Fly * (+10) /* Instructions */
22:07:09 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107356&oldid=107355 * Fly * (+0) /* Instructions */
22:09:12 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107357&oldid=107356 * Fly * (+106) /* Examples */
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22:28:58 <b_jonas> fungot, what is the name of the gardener who killed emperor Cleon I
22:28:59 <fungot> b_jonas: we could also go straight for the master's. i guess
22:31:28 <HackEso> 47) <apollo> So... copyright doesn't really apply to God. \ 61) <ehird> Gracenotes: No I said it does 54-bit \ 68) <scarf> and an AMICED literal would presumably /add/ info to the source <scarf> whatever info gets added, that's the value that the AMICED doesn't contain <scarf> it's all falling into place \ 75) <vadim> it can be a good fursuit, but the good thing is that nobody can complain a fox doesn't have the right skin tone \ 85) <soupdragon> if you
22:32:34 <HackEso> 1/1:704) <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm <Ngevd> Hang on <Ngevd> I'm on Windows \ 1208) <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
22:33:07 <b_jonas> ``` grep -RaEi 'arthur|merlin|p[ae]r[cs][ei][vf][ae]l|galahad|lancelot|gawain|bed[ei]vere|yvain|tristan|mor?dred' /hackenv/wisdom
22:33:47 <int-e> what does `uname` report on WSL?
22:34:23 <int-e> (which certainly predates WSL)
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23:18:31 <fizzie> I think (on WSL 2, anyway) it'll just look like a regular x86_64 Linux, with maybe "-Microsoft" in the kernel release if using the "stock" one.
23:29:58 <HackEso> Linux (none) 4.9.82 #6 Sat Apr 7 13:45:01 BST 2018 x86_64 GNU/Linux
23:52:26 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107358&oldid=107357 * Fly * (+5) /* Introduction */
23:53:41 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107359&oldid=107358 * Fly * (+8)
23:54:27 <esolangs> [[User:Fly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107360&oldid=105675 * Fly * (+40)
00:07:24 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107361&oldid=107347 * Mujk * (-3) /* cat */
00:07:37 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107362&oldid=107361 * Mujk * (+1) /* description */
00:12:16 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107363&oldid=107359 * Fly * (+1) /* Introduction */
00:12:36 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107364&oldid=107363 * Fly * (-17) /* Introduction */
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03:09:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * I rember * New user account
03:13:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107365&oldid=107327 * I rember * (+184) added my introduction
03:16:38 <esolangs> [[User:I rember]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107366 * I rember * (+33) Created page with "hi, i'm rember. i made EchoLang."
03:18:50 <esolangs> [[User:I rember]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107367&oldid=107366 * I rember * (+4)
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03:42:35 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107368 * I rember * (+1496) Created page with "EchoLang is an esolang created by [[user:I rember|I rember]]. It's kind of a mix between ><> and BASIC. It is stack-based, tape-based, AND variable-based, but mostly stack-based. hi! rember here. this page is a work in progress as of now. check back later to see if i
04:04:54 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107369&oldid=107368 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) Categories
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04:07:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107370&oldid=107343 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* E */ add
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11:14:36 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107371&oldid=107362 * Mujk * (+12) /* operators */
11:15:25 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107372&oldid=107371 * Mujk * (-18)
11:28:19 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107373&oldid=107372 * Mujk * (+3) /* description */
11:28:38 <esolangs> [[Trainfck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107374&oldid=107373 * Mujk * (-1) /* operators */
11:30:50 <esolangs> [[User:Mujk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107375&oldid=107004 * Mujk * (-21) /* my interpreters and compilers */
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11:54:28 <wib_jonas> fungot, in a variable name, what is the one true way to abbreviate "number" in a variable name? "num", "nr", "no"? or should I write "cnt" to abbreviate "count" insteaD?
11:54:28 <fungot> wib_jonas: but my 2.4.20 sources are on an internal cvs, they're a bit...
12:01:25 <wib_jonas> what are you talking about? there's no chapter 2.4.20 or exercise 2.4.20
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13:50:07 <esolangs> [[User:DynCoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107376&oldid=83414 * DynCoder * (-100) Replaced content with "="
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20:34:29 <esolangs> [[Toki ilo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107377 * Joaozin003 * (+303) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{WIP}} '''toki ilo''' is a programming language by [[User:Joaozin003]] based off of toki pona<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_pona</ref>. == Program structure == The program is a sequence of commands which look like toki pona sentences. == E
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20:59:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NashedPotato * New user account
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22:26:54 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console Except There Is No Console]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107378 * Fly * (+2591) Created page with "== Introduction == A Simple Language With A Console Except There Is No Console, is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Fly|Fly]] and it's just, as the name suggests, A Simple Language With A Console but with
22:27:41 <esolangs> [[User:Fly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107379&oldid=107360 * Fly * (+67)
22:28:13 <esolangs> [[A Simple Language With A Console Except There Is No Console]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107380&oldid=107378 * Fly * (+4) /* Introduction */
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22:45:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107381&oldid=107365 * NashedPotato * (+351)
22:54:59 <int-e> Hmm https://coreymartin.itch.io/sobroken is an interesting twist on Sokoban.
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10:57:23 <b_jonas> [ (ounces =: 0.02835 0.02841 0.02957 0.03000) * 32
10:57:23 <j-bot> b_jonas: 0.9072 0.90912 0.94624 0.96
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12:06:48 <esolangs> [[Toki ilo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107382&oldid=107377 * Joaozin003 * (+449)
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15:48:02 <esolangs> [[Tenshi C]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107383&oldid=107078 * Richard565 * (-26) Few changes to the description.
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17:31:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107384&oldid=41600 * Joaozin003 * (+166) /* Umm this actually (and obviously) is not 0 byte code */ new section
18:00:20 <b_jonas> what's the easiest way to recursively cat all files in a directory, kind of like wisdom except wisdom is easy because it has very few subdirectories? (cat /hackenv/wisdom/*) isn't recursive. (grep -shar '' /hackenv/wisdom) works I think, but it's odd that you'd want to use grep for this.
18:00:58 <b_jonas> maybe something like (find /hackenv/wisdom -exec cat -- {} \;)
18:01:46 <FireFly> "cat **/*" if you allow for greps and don't mind errors from globbing directories too (I think)
18:01:54 <FireFly> though same with that find, you'd want a -type f
18:02:04 <FireFly> er if you allow for globs*
18:04:03 <b_jonas> ah right, bash imported that feature from zsh... let me see
18:04:18 <JAA> Might want -L as well if you want to cat symlinks pointing to regular files.
18:04:30 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; shopt -s globstar; cd /hackenv/wisdom; echo **
18:04:31 <HackEso> ! #esoteric #esoteric-blah #programming * 01 1 1*1 10 1337 21 2600 42 4chan 4rn4 5318008 6 random numbers 7 8 8/8 8/8/8 8/8/8/8 8/8/8/8/8 8/8/8/8/8/8 8/8/8/8/8/8/8 8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8 9 =@ccc ? ?? @ @messages-loud XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ \oren\ ^ _46bit _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ ` `! `# `1 `2 `2017 `3 `4 `5 `? `? `? `@ `cbt `culprits-c `doag `doat `dowg `dowt `edit `fetch `hello `help `hoag `hoat `howg
18:04:48 <b_jonas> what the heck is that 8/8 thing?
18:05:00 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; shopt -s globstar; cd /hackenv/wisdom; head 8/**
18:05:02 <HackEso> head: error reading '8/': Is a directory \ head: error reading '8/8': Is a directory \ head: error reading '8/8/8': Is a directory \ head: error reading '8/8/8/8': Is a directory \ head: error reading '8/8/8/8/8': Is a directory \ head: error reading '8/8/8/8/8/8': Is a directory \ head: error reading '8/8/8/8/8/8/8': Is a directory \ ==> 8/ <== \ \ ==> 8/8 <== \ \ ==> 8/8/8 <== \ \ ==> 8/8/8/8 <== \ \ ==> 8/8/8/8/8 <== \ \ ==> 8/8/8/8/8/8 <== \ \ ==
18:05:16 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; shopt -s globstar; cd /hackenv/wisdom; grep -as 8/**
18:05:17 <HackEso> 8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8:8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8 is an empty chess board in FEN.
18:06:08 <b_jonas> FireFly: you have a point. I'm from the ancient bash days, back when ${foo/bar/qux} expansion and &| redirection and all other modern convenience features didn't yet exist
18:06:16 <b_jonas> I'm not used to there being a globstar option
18:17:14 <b_jonas> ``` grep -shar "" /hackenv/wisdom | perl -we'read STDIN,$s,1e7; for("aa".."zz"){$f{$_}=0}; for($s=~/(?=([a-z]{2}))/ig) { $f{lc()}++; } for (sort keys%f) { if (!$f{$_}) { print "$_ "; $c++ } } print "($c)\n"' # 85 pairs of ascii letters that aren't wise
18:17:16 <HackEso> bg bh bk bq bx cx dk fd fp fq fz gj gk gq gx hv hx jb jd jf jg jl jm jn jq jt jw jy jz kj kq kv lx mq nx pq pv pz qa qe qg qh qi ql qm qo qp qq qt qv qx qz sx tq vc vh vk vp vq vx wj wq wv wx wz xb xd xg xj xn xq xu xw xz yq yx zc zd zg zj zk zn zq zv zx (85)
18:17:23 <b_jonas> ``` grep -shar "" /hackenv/wisdom /hackenv/quotes | perl -we'read STDIN,$s,1e7; for("aa".."zz"){$f{$_}=0}; for($s=~/(?=([a-z]{2}))/ig) { $f{lc()}++; } for (sort keys%f) { if (!$f{$_}) { print "$_ "; $c++ } } print "($c)\n"'
18:17:25 <HackEso> bg bh bk bq bx cx fp fq fz gq gx hv jd jf jg jm jn jq jt jw jy jz kj kq kv lx mq pq pz qa qe qg qh qi ql qm qo qp qq qt qv qx qz sx tq vh vk vq vx wj wq wv wx wz xd xg xj xn xq xw xz yq yx zc zd zg zj zk zn zq zv zx (72)
18:19:20 <b_jonas> ``` grep -shar "" /hackenv/wisdom | perl -we'read STDIN,$s,1e7; for("aa".."zz"){$f{$_}=0}; for($s=~/(?=([a-z]{2}))/ig) { $f{lc()}++; } for (sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$a cmp$b}keys%f) { print "$f{$_}$_ " }' # these are the wisest letters by the way
18:19:22 <HackEso> 2332th 2083in 1893he 1763is 1717an 1629er 1357re 1343or 1276on 1171en 1130te 1106es 1103at 1006ng 961it 931ar 909st 887al 887nt 852to 815ti 785nd 769le 764ou 762ha 746ed 695ne 688co 687se 675of 674me 661ve 646om 643ro 637ri 619ic 593ma 583ra 582as 582de 546ot 543ta 528no 524us 517li 514ll 505la 504hi 504io 500ea 470el 467so 460un 459ca 456et 453ce 451fo 413ch 413pe 412si 408ur 406tr 405be 389ac 381il 380ly 379ho 379ns 378ut 376am 370ge 367pr 366wi 364mo 34
18:19:36 <FireFly> oh as prefixes I guess maybe
18:19:40 <FireFly> still seems like a lot though
18:19:54 <b_jonas> not as prefixes, I'm counting all infixes in the contents of the files
18:19:59 <FireFly> `` ls /hackenv/wisdom | wc -l
18:20:06 <FireFly> `` ls /hackenv/wisdom/ | wc -l
18:20:47 <b_jonas> yes, ls is overrided, paste is overrided, no wonder I usually write /bin/cat instead of just cat even though LAST I CHECKED cat wasn't overridden
18:21:30 <HackEso> paste is /hackenv/bin/paste
18:22:10 <b_jonas> sed and ls pretend to be imperfect implementations of the unix utility, while paste is just some completely unrelated thing
18:22:24 <HackEso> 🌱 \ 3 \ a.o \ a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bef2 \ bfi \ bin \ Burlesque \ canary \ carrot.txt \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ foo \ JoaoDir \ just \ karma \ le \ nonoodl \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ perlV \ pikhqbow_tst \ program \ -.s \ spline \ spout \ stall \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt \ wise-urls.txt \ xaa
18:22:37 <FireFly> oh right ok it has a check for wisdom specifically? forgot :D
18:22:48 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^"$(/bin/ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d\ -f 1)" && [[ "$IRC_TARGET" == \#* ]]; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
18:25:16 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; shopt -s nullglob; s=(/hackenv/wisdom/{,.}*); echo "${#s[*]} files"
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18:26:52 <b_jonas> `python3 -cimport os; print(len(list(os.scandir("/hackenv/wisdom"))))
18:27:11 <b_jonas> (the first one says two higher because it counts . and .. while scandir excludes them)
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18:54:57 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107385&oldid=104426 * Tesolang * (+13) edited hello world
18:59:33 <esolangs> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107386&oldid=107385 * Tesolang * (+81) added unusual hello world
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20:39:46 <esolangs> [[User:CrispyPin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107387&oldid=65502 * CrispyPin * (-96)
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01:53:57 <zzo38> Is there a program that will make a DVD subtitle file from two video files, one of which has the subtitles included in the picture?
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17:07:12 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107388&oldid=107237 * Rphii * (-36) overhaul presentation about numbers etc.
17:08:59 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107389&oldid=107388 * Rphii * (+119) /* Numbers */ totally forgot to add nothing
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20:50:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sertonix * New user account
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20:56:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107390&oldid=107381 * Sertonix * (+333) Introduce Sertonix
21:00:50 <esolangs> [[Pi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107391&oldid=72419 * Sertonix * (+6) fix link to hello world programm
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06:32:02 <zzo38> I have not played the sokoban variant mentioned on here recently, but I have read the description and looked at some screenshots, which allowed me to guess how it is working. (And then, I thought of how such a thing might be implemented in Free Hero Mesh; possibly it would use arrays for keeping track of history, although the array limit might not be big enough; I am not sure)
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07:26:55 <Taneb> zzo38: are arrays the only collection type available in Free Hero Mesh?
07:28:12 <Taneb> (I am not familiar with it)
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08:36:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PoptartPlungerBoi * New user account
09:15:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107392&oldid=107390 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+295) /* Introductions */
09:16:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PoptartPlungerBoi * uploaded "[[File:Wooyeahlogo.png]]": Logo by PoptartPlungerBoi (me)
09:19:41 <esolangs> [[User:PoptartPlungerBoi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107394 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+132) Created page with "Hello there! i'm '''PoptartPlungerBoi'''. == Esolangs i've created == * WooYeah (coming soon) [[File:Wooyeahlogo.png|Coming soon!]]"
09:21:03 <esolangs> [[User:PoptartPlungerBoi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107395&oldid=107394 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+9)
09:57:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Trichotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107396&oldid=104274 * McChuck * (+238) /* Ambiguity */ new section
09:57:44 <esolangs> [[Trichotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107397&oldid=104273 * McChuck * (-4) /* Format */
10:07:37 <esolangs> [[Trichotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107398&oldid=107397 * McChuck * (+128) /* Format */
10:07:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Trichotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107399&oldid=107396 * McChuck * (-238) /* Ambiguity */
10:17:41 <esolangs> [[Trichotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107400&oldid=107398 * McChuck * (+0) /* Format */
10:18:12 <esolangs> [[Trichotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107401&oldid=107400 * McChuck * (+0) /* Example program */
10:24:44 <esolangs> [[Trichotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107402&oldid=107401 * McChuck * (+0) /* Format */
10:25:15 <esolangs> [[Trichotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107403&oldid=107402 * McChuck * (+0) /* Example program */
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12:15:53 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107404&oldid=107306 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+2) /* ArnoldC */
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12:23:01 <esolangs> [[COW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107405&oldid=97000 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-32) /* Sample code */
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13:07:31 <esolangs> [[Capybara]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107406 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+254) Created page with "'''Capybara''' is a totally "usefull" esolang created by [[User:PoptartPlungerBoi]]. ==Commands== A "Hello, world!" program: ok i pull up how bout in the after party how bout in the bacardi ok [[Category:Uncomputable]] [[Category:Joke languages]]"
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15:21:18 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107407&oldid=107404 * Golang * (+131) add dorklang
15:25:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107408&oldid=107392 * Golang * (+49) update my introduction
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15:27:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107409&oldid=107408 * Golang * (+49) update my introduction
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15:46:05 <esolangs> [[Capybara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107410&oldid=107406 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Stub, category
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17:00:41 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes, although you can also create objects (the limit of objects is much larger, but objects also take up more memory). Another way could be to create objects in the bizarro world (and/or with the VisualOnly and Invisible flags set, although Bizarro implies Invisible anyways) and make a linked list that way, I suppose
17:12:27 <zzo38> (and, arrays are always global and cannot be private to an object, and arrays are also always static allocation (but they are not read-only))
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17:56:41 <esolangs> [[Toki ilo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107411&oldid=107382 * Joaozin003 * (+102)
17:58:10 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107412&oldid=107269 * Joaozin003 * (+97) /* My Esolangs */
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20:01:44 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107413&oldid=93615 * Corbin * (+87) Deobfuscate according to feedback. Update basis. Disambiguate "functor" to "template" or "diagram". (Not included: Updated docs for the toolchain, theory of jets.)
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21:29:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:Otesunki]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107414 * Tux1 * (+302) Created page with "{{#ping:Otesunki}} Hey, I'm interested in creating an interpeter for one of your esolangs, however the documentation seems quite vague and has a few design flaws. Could we get in touch? My username on Discord is Tux1#5086. Thanks! ~~~~"
21:31:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Otesunki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107415&oldid=107414 * Tux1 * (-1)
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23:18:35 <zzo38> Do you have idea I wanted to add a block into Free Hero Mesh that the CREATE message (called when an object is created during the game) and INIT message (called for each object at the beginning of the level) are doing the same thing? There is (<message> <imperative>) block, but a common use is to define both messages to do the same thing, so a shortcut to do both would be sensible to have
23:23:08 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107416&oldid=107369 * I rember * (+99)
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03:12:44 <zzo38> How to make Heirloom-mailx to display the last page of messages by default when "mail -f" command is used?
03:14:10 <zzo38> (I only want it to do that if the -f switch is specified.)
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04:03:00 <esolangs> [[Capybara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107417&oldid=107410 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-2)
04:05:33 <esolangs> [[Capybara]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107418&oldid=107417 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+60)
04:05:48 <esolangs> [[Capybara]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107419&oldid=107418 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-60)
04:07:38 <esolangs> [[User:PoptartPlungerBoi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107420&oldid=107395 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+15) /* Esolangs i've created */
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06:41:23 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107421 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+4425) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=WooYeah |paradigms=procedural, imperative |author=[[User:PoptartPlungerBoi]] |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |typesys=static, strong |memsys=variable-based |dimensions=one-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Unknown computational class|Unknow
06:43:12 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107422&oldid=107421 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-24)
06:43:30 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107423&oldid=107422 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-10)
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06:45:22 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107424&oldid=107423 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+32)
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06:51:27 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107425&oldid=107424 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-84)
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06:52:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Popular problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107426&oldid=7963 * XKCD Wrong Times Table * (+727) pie
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06:55:11 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107427&oldid=107425 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-24)
07:00:46 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107428&oldid=104824 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+2536) /* Word!CPU */
07:00:57 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107429&oldid=107428 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-2) /* Word!CPU */
07:01:07 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107430&oldid=107429 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+1) /* Word!CPU */
07:01:49 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107431&oldid=107430 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+4) /* WooYeah */
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07:03:23 <esolangs> [[Yet Another Musical Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107432&oldid=103842 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+28)
07:03:33 <esolangs> [[Yet Another Musical Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107433&oldid=107432 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+6)
07:05:02 <esolangs> [[User:PoptartPlungerBoi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107434&oldid=107420 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-48) /* Esolangs i've created */
07:05:41 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107435&oldid=107427 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+31)
07:05:56 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107436&oldid=107435 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+6)
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08:48:55 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107437&oldid=107436 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+220) /* Examples */
08:50:12 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107438&oldid=107437 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+58) /* Language overview */
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09:11:35 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107439&oldid=107438 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+144) /* Examples */
09:11:50 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107440&oldid=107439 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+1) /* =Alphabetical digits */
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09:22:41 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107441&oldid=107440 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+151) /* Examples */
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09:25:22 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107442&oldid=107441 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+82) /* Examples */
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09:27:04 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107443&oldid=107442 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+3) /* A "Hello, World!" program: */
09:37:40 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107444&oldid=107443 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+575) /* Capital and lowercase letters */
09:38:01 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107445&oldid=107444 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+4) /* Symbols and punctuation */
09:38:31 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107446&oldid=107445 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+0) /* Question mark and exclaimation mark: */
09:40:39 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107447&oldid=107446 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+100) /* Question mark and exclaimation mark: */
09:41:09 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107448&oldid=107447 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+4)
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09:45:32 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107449&oldid=107448 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+64) /* Language overview */
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09:49:02 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107450&oldid=107449 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+10) /* Question mark and exclaimation mark: */
10:00:52 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107451&oldid=107450 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+72) /* Language overview */
10:05:18 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107452&oldid=107451 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+176) /* Symbols and punctuation */
10:05:30 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107453&oldid=107452 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-1) /* Comma and ampersand */
10:05:59 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107454&oldid=107453 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+1) /* Comma and ampersand */
10:11:01 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107455&oldid=107454 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+60) /* Language overview */
10:14:14 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107456&oldid=107455 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+346) /* Other symbols */
10:18:32 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107457&oldid=107456 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+39) /* Language overview */
10:29:42 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107458&oldid=107457 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+433) /* Period */
10:39:05 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107459&oldid=107458 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+570) /* Period and number sign */
10:41:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 20 Gay Rats * New user account
10:46:42 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107460&oldid=107459 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+174)
10:47:24 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107461&oldid=107460 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+184)
10:47:35 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107462&oldid=107461 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+0)
10:47:46 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107463&oldid=107462 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+0)
10:50:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107464&oldid=107409 * 20 Gay Rats * (+281)
10:54:41 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107465&oldid=107463 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+299) /* Examples */
10:59:59 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107466&oldid=107465 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+229) /* Quotation mark and 'at' symbol */
11:00:23 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107467&oldid=107466 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+7) /* Quotation mark, asterisk, and 'at' symbol */
11:01:30 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107468&oldid=107467 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+58) /* Language overview */
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12:29:34 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107469&oldid=107468 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+10) /* Numbers */
12:30:45 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107470&oldid=107469 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+82) /* Numbers */
12:32:43 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107471&oldid=107470 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-15) /* Numbers */
12:33:54 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107472&oldid=107471 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-2) /* Comma and ampersand */
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13:09:14 <esolangs> [[Template:99BottleChallenge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107473 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+537) Created page with "<center> <font color="#ff0000"></font> <font color="#ff0000"></font> Oh, so you like a certain esolang? <font color="#ff0000"></font> <font color="#ff0000"></font> Code [[99 bottles of beer|99 Bottles of Beer]] in it. <font color="#ff
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14:47:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Plandemia * New user account
14:48:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107474&oldid=107464 * Plandemia * (+10) dopisek
14:49:19 <esolangs> [[Taktentus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107475&oldid=78107 * Plandemia * (+0) change adress
14:56:36 <esolangs> [[Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107476&oldid=79179 * Joaozin003 * (+137)
14:58:16 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003/Developing area]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107477 * Joaozin003 * (+72) Created page with "This is where I develop languages before making separate pages for them."
14:58:55 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107478&oldid=107412 * Joaozin003 * (+54) /* Other Links */
14:59:51 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107479&oldid=107478 * Joaozin003 * (+0) /* Other Links */
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17:10:25 <esolangs> [[WTFCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107480&oldid=107086 * Asicosilomu * (+1038)
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19:05:13 <esolangs> [[Trilangle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107481&oldid=107071 * Bbrk24 * (+276) /* Instruction set */ Add threading operators
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20:53:24 <b_jonas> city public transport vehicles, as in buses, trams, metro etc, often have digital displays inside. these usually show the name of the next stop, as well as other info eg. name of last stop of the line, identifier of the line, current time, id of lines you can transfer to at next stop etc. the most constrained displays have only one line and alternate various different info on them.
20:54:13 <b_jonas> now the problem is that displaying the next stop has a race condition: at some point it has to change from one stop to the next, and if you look at the display near then then you might not know whether it's showing the current (or shortly previous) or the next station.
20:55:31 <b_jonas> on longer distance vehicles this isn't a problem, but in city vehicles the stops are close to each other so it is a practical problem. in Budapest, on buses these days the display switches when the GPS is sure that the bus has left the current station; on metro it switches while the doors are open and the warning bell+lamp before closing the doors turns on.
20:56:35 <b_jonas> to break this race condition, the display should somehow distinguish between current stop and next stop, like show some symbol before the name of the stop, and switch the output twice per station.
20:57:28 <b_jonas> my question is, can you figure out some nice unambiguous way to show this? what symbols should a one-line display show to mean current station, next station, and last station of the line resp?
20:58:36 <b_jonas> to be clear this is idle curiosity, I don't have any effect on what these display, I'm just curious if there's a good way to show this
20:59:39 <b_jonas> the one-line monochrome displays are very low resolution, plus every display must be readable from far enough away, so you don't get much space.
21:00:26 <b_jonas> many vehicles have larger high resolution color displays, but on those this is easier to solve, and if you can solve this for the one-line low-res monochrome display then you can probably solve it for any display
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21:01:05 <b_jonas> mind you, currently this isn't solved on the large displays on buses either, those just show the next *three* stops plus the last stop but no indication that breaks the race condition
21:06:01 <JAA> b_jonas: On metros where the side of the exit varies by station, there's sometimes an arrow to signify which side to get out on. You could display that arrow until switching to the next station and then only start showing it shortly before entering the station. This doesn't make sense for buses or trams though.
21:06:55 <esolangs> [[User:Piechicken20]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107482&oldid=106667 * Piechicken20 * (-1936) Replaced content with "I am Piechicken20. I am an indie game/software developer."
21:07:07 <b_jonas> JAA: hmm, that could perhaps work, an outwards pointing arrow. though you have to be careful because I think some displays show a right arrow → before the name of the final stop
21:07:18 <esolangs> [[Glanose]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107483 * Piechicken20 * (+1993) Created page with "Gnalose This is an esolang I made. Example run: {>>>>&<<&| |i|s| |t|h|e| |a|n|s|w|e|r| |t|o| |e|v|e|r|y|t|h|i|n|g}+ This should output: 4 2 i s t h e a n s w e r t o e v e r
21:07:59 <b_jonas> on a bus the arrow would just always point right →, while on a tram or metro it would vary between left ← and right →
21:08:08 <JAA> Well yes, but if the display flips between [<- station ] or [ station ->] and [ -> terminus ], there's no ambiguity.
21:08:59 <esolangs> [[User:Piechicken20]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107484&oldid=107482 * Piechicken20 * (+49)
21:09:36 <b_jonas> probably better show the terminus with ⇥ aka ->| then
21:09:49 <JAA> If you have the resolution/space, sure. :-)
21:11:38 <JAA> Another option I've seen is to switch the colour of the text as you arrive, then switch back to the other colour with the next station after leaving.
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21:12:09 <JAA> But that would require observant passengers.
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21:17:13 <b_jonas> switch color doesn't work on monochrome displays. there aren't many left of the mechanical monochrome ones, they replaced them on most buses, but some trams do have monochrome led displays.
21:18:00 <JAA> Yeah, right.
21:18:20 <b_jonas> inside, that is; outside of buses there are still mechanical or combo mechanical+led displays, so that they're readable in sunlight
21:18:46 <b_jonas> but the outside display on a vehicle never displays the next station so there's no such race condition
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23:52:32 <fever-lang> Just released Fever on my GitHub, it's just a small personal project but it's at least pretty different from C and more writable than a lot of more funny esolangs. https://github.com/asegs/fever-lang, feel free to roast but I would love to chat with other people who have done pattern matching on both types and values.
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23:55:44 <FireFly> toy languages are fun, and that seems a lot more interesting than most esolangs tbh
23:55:56 <FireFly> so, uh, keep up the good work I guess?
23:56:43 <arctic_> I just switched usernames, logged onto a real irc client instead of the browser
23:57:27 <arctic_> But ty, it was fun to develop, I'm not very active in esolang communities but I'm curious if there is anything similar to this (syntax wise or other) that any of you have come across
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23:58:05 <zzo38> Is there documentation (other than the a few examples and stuff in README.md)?
23:58:39 <arctic_> No, I just wrote the readme tonight, would internals or a more cohesive spec be more interesting to start on first?
00:00:37 <arctic_> Not for me to write I mean - but for you to read when browsing the repo
00:01:11 <zzo38> I don't know that, either.
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00:09:53 <zzo38> Yes, those things would help.
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02:36:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Template:99BottleChallenge]] to [[User:PoptartPlungerBoi/99BottleChallenge]]: this is a userbox which isn't likely to be used on multiple mainspace pages, so move it to userspace as it's effectively an extension of its author's userspace
02:38:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Snowflake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107486&oldid=107219 * Ais523 * (+238) /* Is there a version of this without interpreter-self-modification? */ no interpreter exists, as far as I know; also {{unsigned}}
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04:03:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DevMa * New user account
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05:03:18 <esolangs> [[Template:99BottleChallenge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107487 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+53) Redirected page to [[UserPoptartPlungerBoi/99BottleChallenge]]
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07:43:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dnl * New user account
07:55:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107488&oldid=107474 * Dnl * (+146) dnl introduction
07:55:51 <esolangs> [[Newbiefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107489&oldid=106902 * Dnl * (-5) changing a very and concrete specific, barely testable assumption to a more vague and less specific assumption.
08:17:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lattay * New user account
08:26:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:WooYeah]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107490 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+18) Created page with "== Question Bar =="
08:30:50 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107491&oldid=107472 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+23)
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13:31:44 <esolangs> [[WTFCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107492&oldid=107480 * Asicosilomu * (-148)
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16:54:48 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107493&oldid=107416 * I rember * (+324)
16:55:06 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107494&oldid=107493 * I rember * (-1)
16:58:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:I rember]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107495 * I rember * (+92) Created page with "what would you like to talk about? - rember ([[user:I rember|my page]]) 3/15/23 12:58 pm est"
17:04:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:EchoLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107496 * I rember * (+86) Created page with "if you need any help, just let me know. - [[user:I rember|rember]] 3/15/23 1:04 pm est"
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17:15:11 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107497&oldid=107494 * I rember * (+437)
17:18:02 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107498&oldid=107497 * I rember * (+247)
17:18:22 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107499&oldid=107498 * I rember * (+4)
17:21:04 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107500&oldid=107499 * I rember * (+1)
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00:17:16 <esolangs> [[Hi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107501 * Yes * (+148) Created page with "Hi is a trivial esolang where everything prints "hi". <br> == Examples == <pre> Hello, World! </pre> Output: <pre> hihihihihihihihihihihihihi </pre>"
00:17:40 <esolangs> [[User:Yes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107502&oldid=106651 * Yes * (+12)
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01:02:05 <ais523> b_jonas: re: your public transport problem, some train companies in the UK solve it with very specific statements
01:02:19 <ais523> "we are now approaching <station>", "this is <station>", "the next stop will be <station>"
01:02:54 <ais523> although, these are the sort of trains that go for tens of minutes between stations, so they're doing this despite the problem not really mattering for them – I guess they have the time to put lots of text on their displays because you're going to have time to read them
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01:11:21 <b_jonas> ais523: that does work in voice announcements, but they're too long for the one-line displays
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02:11:06 <fizzie> You can scroll the text. Maybe not the best idea, but you can.
02:11:24 <fizzie> I think at least some of the Tube trains do that.
02:11:57 <fizzie> For example I suspect https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/inside-view-new-style-district-line-trains-london-underground-england-september-198778494.jpg is in the act of scrolling "This is a District line train to Tower Hill. The next stop is X." on the screen.
02:13:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: the mechanical displays are slow to update so they page text line by line rather than scroll it
02:14:13 <fizzie> Fair. Also, Tube stops have like 1-2 minute spacing, so you don't really always have time to wait for the loop. And the train might know its location rather more accurately than a bus.
02:16:39 <fizzie> ScotRail's audio announcement database is a free download -- at https://scotrail.datasette.io/ -- which is kind of fun. There's a link on the site to generate a random apology.
02:19:45 <fizzie> I don't expect Finnish railway companies have a prerecorded clip for "a wartime bomb near the railway".
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02:53:42 <b_jonas> you know how banking (and air travel) IT moves very slowly because everyone wants to be compatible with every other existing system transitively, and all the protocols go back to when computers had much fewer resources, right? do you suppose it moves slowly enough that in a few decades it will be possible to pay with the oldest credit cards again, since they have a two-digit year in their date of expiry?
02:54:02 <b_jonas> and/or will it be possible to fly again with the oldest airplane tickets?
02:58:05 <zzo38> I would expect that by that time, the data would be obsolete even if the protocols aren't
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10:26:30 <b_jonas> ok, there's no way the ↑↑↑ thing isn't way too big in today's https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/stars-war
10:27:12 <b_jonas> even 10↑↑10 would be too big
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15:56:59 <esolangs> [[Listack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107503&oldid=106996 * McChuck * (+960) /* Example programs */
16:00:37 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107504&oldid=107503 * McChuck * (+55) /* Example programs */
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19:25:03 <esolangs> [[Tick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107505&oldid=53573 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+297) Reformatted the instruction table.
19:26:21 <esolangs> [[Tick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107506&oldid=107505 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+182) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Tick programming language on GitHub and added the category tag Implemented.
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19:53:50 <Sertonix-tmp> I just saw this page with a note that it should be deleted: https://esolangs.org/wiki/LambdaStack
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22:20:16 <esolangs> [[Matrexp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107507 * BoundedBeans * (+5911) Created page with "Matrexp is an esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]]. It focuses on a matrix-based expression system. ==Syntax== The program is a single 4x4 matrix. Matrices are written like this: <pre> (=======) [x|x|x|x] [-------] [x|x|x|x] [-------] [x|x|x|x] [-------] [x|x|x|x]
22:21:54 <esolangs> [[Matrexp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107508&oldid=107507 * BoundedBeans * (+110) Categories
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04:31:39 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107509&oldid=107491 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+78) /* Examples */
04:41:34 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107510&oldid=107509 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (+532) /* Numbers */
04:42:19 <esolangs> [[WooYeah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107511&oldid=107510 * PoptartPlungerBoi * (-3) /* Comment */
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08:22:47 <Taneb> I am trying to understand proposition 2.3 of https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/locally+cartesian+closed+category but the notation is difficult :(
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10:28:57 <river> nlab is difficult to read
10:30:13 <river> I don't know about dependent product in category theory
10:30:32 <river> you could ask in #categorytheory it is a good channel
10:35:37 <Taneb> I'm actually in that channel!
10:35:58 <Taneb> I think earlier I more wanted to complain than get help but I might ask later
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23:29:33 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck Encoded Concatenative Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107512&oldid=106858 * Nurdle * (+2) fixed pronunciation transcription
00:08:21 <esolangs> [[InfiniTick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107513&oldid=50781 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+172) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the InfiniTick programming language on GitHub.
00:08:41 <esolangs> [[InfiniTick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107514&oldid=107513 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+88) Added categories to the page.
00:12:14 <esolangs> [[InfiniTick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107515&oldid=107514 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+586) Reformatted the command table.
00:17:21 <esolangs> [[InfiniTick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107516&oldid=107515 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+849) Added an examples section with two initial members, the first constituting a Hello, world! program, the second an ASCII character printer.
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03:31:29 <Sgeo> What OSes allow shared libraries to rename functions while being binary compatible? Like, Amiga renamed OpenLibrary to OldOpenLibrary and made a new OpenLibrary, to fix a bug that couldn't be backwardly-compatibly fixed (it takes a version parameter, but the old one ignored it)
03:31:57 <Sgeo> Wait, no, the signature changed. The old one didn't take a version number at all
03:32:41 <Sgeo> ...hm, actually I'm not sure. The OldOpenLibrary docs don't list a second parameter, but maybe it took and ignored it, and that's effectively equivalent
03:32:45 <Sgeo> http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Includes_and_Autodocs_3._guide/node0220.html
03:38:18 <fizzie> Import-by-ordinal is/was the standard practice of how to use DLLs on Windows, I believe, and allows for that.
03:39:51 <fizzie> And of course there's symbol versioning support on GNU/Linux.
03:44:46 <Sgeo> Hmm, I thought Windows typically exported and imported by name
03:45:43 <Sgeo> Is that symbol versioning an ELF thing? I don't know much about it
03:45:55 <fizzie> I know it supports both. And I was under the impression that ordinals were commonly used. But that's just a rumour.
03:46:23 <fizzie> Saves space and all that.
03:48:29 <fizzie> Symbol versioning is... well, I think it's more or less a GNU thing.
03:48:35 <fizzie> Though https://sourceware.org/binutils/docs/ld/VERSION.html suggests they got the idea from Sun.
03:51:07 <fizzie> Apparently at least some BSDs have picked it up too, judging from https://wiki.freebsd.org/SymbolVersioning
04:13:37 <Sgeo> I'm still unsure why an OS would need both relocation and virtual memory. If it has virtual memory, the executable can be placed whereever it expects to be placed. If it has relocation, nothing too wrong with a flat address space (I guess that's the Amiga model. Oh, or the program can use PIC apparently)
04:14:03 <Sgeo> I'd love to read comparisons about how executables and shared libraries work between systems
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06:39:55 <b_jonas> Sgeo: the unix solution for that is to keep the names of the linked symbols but have the renaming done in the headers
06:42:23 <b_jonas> but usually just don't rename, pick a new name (or new mangled name for languages that mangle)
06:45:04 <b_jonas> and put a depreciation warning on the old function that points to the new incompatible one
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17:17:47 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107517&oldid=107407 * Tesolang * (+6) /* > */
17:56:04 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107518&oldid=107517 * Tesolang * (+213) /* */
17:56:19 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107519&oldid=107518 * Tesolang * (-2) /* */
17:56:30 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107520&oldid=107519 * Tesolang * (-19) /* */
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19:10:15 <Sgeo> I guess memory protection is more to prevent accidents? Like Windows will stop pointers to other programs from being meaningful, but any program can just ask politely for memory access to other programs and be granted it. Although I guess that's changing in mobile and with Windows 10/11 "apps"
19:12:11 <int-e> Accidents and attacks. No clue what the Windows angle is here.
19:12:16 <fizzie> I don't know about Windows, but I'd be surprised if that would be allowed cross security contexts no matter how politely you ask.
19:13:01 <fizzie> For the same user (for some definition of "user"), probably, since that's how I think cheat programs tend to work?
19:13:11 <int-e> (Beyond the fact that it's an OS, so it's supposed to enforce security boundaries, and memory protection is a large part of that story.)
19:14:46 <Sgeo> Yeah, thinking of the same user/cheat program story
19:15:12 <fizzie> On Linux, I believe you have to go through the 'ptrace' mechanism to inspect other processes' memory, and a lot of distributions "recently" (some years back) started turning on ptrace restrictions by default, so that you can only trace your own descendants, or processes that specifically cooperate with you.
19:15:48 <fizzie> https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/security/Yama.txt <- that thing.
19:16:31 <int-e> "ask politely" -- of course any program can expose a protocol for external access to internals.
19:16:42 <Sgeo> Meant ask the OS politely
19:17:03 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107521&oldid=107413 * Corbin * (+1102) /* Syntax */ Document the theory of jets.
19:17:35 <Sgeo> I think a lot of companies would prefer if most users used an OS where Cheat Engine couldn't work, and I think most users wouldn't care about being hamstrung that way.
19:17:40 <int-e> Or you can load a program into your own address space and patch it and manipulate it that way. Or fully emulate it.
19:18:24 <int-e> the dream of "trusted computing"
19:19:31 <fizzie> There's no such thing as trust, apparently.
19:19:33 <int-e> (A trusted component is a component that can break security.)
19:20:02 <Sgeo> I may soon have a spare, not particularly powerful computer (my current laptop that I only use for Parsec streaming my desktop is dying. Bought a new laptop, and am going to try to have this one repaired under warranty)
19:20:08 <int-e> The thing about the word "trust" is that it doesn't specify who trusts whom or what.
19:20:10 <Sgeo> Half wondering if I should put Icaros Desktop on it
19:20:34 <Sgeo> I'm currently finding Amiga fascinating, but will probably lose interest at some point
19:20:44 <int-e> In the "trusted computing" context it's largely about third parties trusting your hardware, bypassing you as the user.
19:42:15 <Sgeo> I like how Amiga uses logical devices, like C: being the equivalent of PATH, that can be assigned to different physical locations (or I think multiple)
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04:57:51 <Sgeo> Using Icaros Desktop in VMware wasn't a ... pleasant experience
04:57:57 <Sgeo> Don't know if real hardware would be better
04:58:02 <Sgeo> Cursor kept flickering
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06:34:24 <Sgeo> ....apparently I left Hyper-V running? I thought I turned it off
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07:04:14 <Sgeo> Have to turn off memory integrity to turn off Hyper-V
07:11:37 <Sgeo> Still having issues with Icaros Desktop
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12:21:05 <fizzie> I put Windows 3.11 into an 86Box emulating a 486 with a Tseng Labs ET4000/W32 SVGA adapter (used to have one of those), and the screen kept doing this thing where the image would not refresh / get all corrupted, but fix itself if I moved the mouse cursor around the affected area.
12:24:17 <esolangs> [[NiceLanguage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107522 * Imcute * (+1924) Created page with "This is a language I quickly assembled yesterday,then painfully debugged today.<br> Implementation https://replit.com/@imcute-aaaa/NicerLanguage <br> Notepad++ highlighting https://replit.com/@imcute-aaaa/NicerLanguage#test/nl.xml <br> An expression is wrapped in ei
13:25:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: make sure the driver knows how much RAM is on your video card. I've seen video corruption when the driver thought there was more video RAM that there actually was. Those old hardware and drivers don't just autodetect all their configurations like modern hardware do.
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18:20:54 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107525&oldid=105644 * Hakerh400 * (+18) +[[Preparation]]
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22:44:12 <esolangs> [[Kwert]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107527 * Arctenik * (+3354) Create page
22:50:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107528&oldid=107524 * Arctenik * (+12) /* K */ Add Kwert
22:52:57 <esolangs> [[User:Arctenik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107529&oldid=95615 * Arctenik * (+14) Add link to Kwert
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05:29:44 <zzo38> Yesterday I was playing a role playing game session. After the game, the GM mentioned that most players, if they find some gnolls would attack (either right away or when they attack). I did something a bit different; at first I just decided to go ahead so that they would not find us; I did not know if they were neutral, friendly, or enemies, but my guess was the first one.
05:30:00 <zzo38> But then they attacked, so we were ready to fight back, but then I thought, maybe they were tricked by the Black Hand, so I decided to say something to them, and that worked; it seems I was right. They were not very good at English, but it seems this time I managed to get the point across.
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07:20:22 <Taneb> It sounds like you are a good roleplayer, zzo38
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08:29:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: the sentence with "most players" is unfinished
08:46:50 <Taneb> b_jonas: I think that sentence seems fine, apart from a missing comma after "gnolls"
09:08:56 <b_jonas> oh, it says the players attack rather than the gnolls attack
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09:39:18 <Taneb> Maybe zzo38 could have tried talking to the gnolls in Gnorwegian
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17:39:27 <esolangs> [[BitQueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107531&oldid=105889 * DivergentClouds * (+1) Added a missing period
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19:13:32 <zzo38> Yes, I missed a comma. (And, "Gnorwegian" is not a language that my character can speak; fortunately there was one guy riding an elephant who was good at at least three different languages (including English, Quan Ma (the country we were in), and the gnoll's language), so he was able to talk to them more effectively.
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20:15:45 <HackEso> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham). There's also the hypothetical Gal, which hasn't been observed yet so we're not sure where it's from.
20:15:56 <b_jonas> is Gnorwegian a Tanebvention?
20:45:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107532&oldid=107528 * BoundedBeans * (+14)
20:46:08 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107533&oldid=106453 * BoundedBeans * (+13)
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22:12:22 <esolangs> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107534&oldid=56190 * ZM * (-1470) page was horribly out of date; temporary blank
22:15:22 <esolangs> [[SHRUB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107535 * ZM * (+4799) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=SHRUB |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:ZM]] |year=[[:Category:2022|2022]] |typesys= |memsys= |dimensions= |class=''[[#Computational class|see text]]'' |refimpl= |majorimpl= |dialects= |influence=[[Subleq]] |influenced= |files= }} SHRUB ('''SH'''if
22:16:15 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107536&oldid=107532 * ZM * (+12) /* S */
22:16:48 <esolangs> [[SHRUB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107537&oldid=107535 * ZM * (+0)
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07:11:22 <Taneb> b_jonas: I'm afraid Gnorwegian is a Tanebvention. It's the language spoken in Phinland
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08:36:33 <esolangs> [[Kwert]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107538&oldid=107527 * Arctenik * (+6228) Expand on various aspects, including new command ID syntax
08:46:13 <esolangs> [[Kwert]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107539&oldid=107538 * Arctenik * (+1) /* Evaluation */ Add break before note about skipping the first command
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09:27:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Methewhenmethe * New user account
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09:29:56 <esolangs> [[User:Andriy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107540&oldid=103047 * Andriy * (+41)
09:36:35 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107541 * Andriy * (+541) started work on the page
09:38:21 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107542&oldid=107541 * Andriy * (+322)
09:40:40 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107543&oldid=107542 * Andriy * (+90)
09:54:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andriy * uploaded "[[File:GraphAddress.png]]": An explanation of addresses in Graph Oriented Fictional COmputer
09:55:18 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107545&oldid=107543 * Andriy * (+27)
09:56:26 <esolangs> [[Borsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107546&oldid=91955 * Andriy * (-8)
09:57:47 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107547&oldid=107545 * Andriy * (+116)
10:00:34 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107548&oldid=107547 * Andriy * (+312)
10:01:43 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107549&oldid=107536 * Andriy * (+40) /* G */
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10:19:32 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107557&oldid=107556 * Andriy * (+228)
10:22:56 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107558&oldid=107520 * Andriy * (+115) /* golfuck */ adding Graph Oriented Fictional Programming Language
10:25:38 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107559&oldid=107558 * Andriy * (+169) /* Graph Oriented Fictional Computer */
10:29:44 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107560&oldid=107557 * Andriy * (+54)
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12:24:27 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107561&oldid=107560 * Andriy * (-25) It doesn't use xml
12:25:03 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107562&oldid=107561 * Andriy * (+11)
12:25:11 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107563&oldid=107562 * Andriy * (+0)
12:25:22 <esolangs> [[Graph Oriented Fictional Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107564&oldid=107563 * Andriy * (+1)
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13:47:54 <river> https://arxiv.org/pdf/2303.10798.pdf
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17:31:46 <wib_jonas> river: nice catch, thank you for linking it. if you want to post an answer to https://mathoverflow.net/q/182440/5340 , ping me and I'll delete my answer
17:44:41 <int-e> Hmm, a periodic tiling or aperiodic tiling...
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19:54:38 <zzo38> The maximum UTF-32 code point is 0x10FFFF, and the minimum TRON-32 code point (other than ASCII control characters) is 0x212121, so they don't overlap.
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20:19:01 <b_jonas> Factorio and Spelunky 2 have seeded map generation but they support only 32 bits of entropy for the seed. I find this so weird. These are modern games running on modern hardware, so why limit the seed so much?
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20:39:12 <int-e> How much of a limitation is that? I guess it makes Minecraft-style reverse engineering of the seed less complicated.
20:41:20 <int-e> (cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCF4k2_-C40 ...hmm I wonder whether there is an accessible first-hand account of the brute force computation effort.
20:41:53 <int-e> also this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaRurhiK-Lk
20:52:21 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, people did brute-force search all the Factorio seeds using some automated criteria to find good ones for the any% speedrun
20:53:17 <b_jonas> or maybe not all just a lot of them? I'm not sure.
20:53:54 <b_jonas> each one takes a few seconds to generate the map around the starting area so you need serious parallelism to brute force all of the, but it's not out of question
20:54:15 <b_jonas> but more importantly you get repeats if you generate lots of random seeds, at least in Factorio
20:54:38 <b_jonas> I don't know how Spelunky works, maybe it uses a larger seed for non-seeded games, in which case you won't get repeats
20:54:44 <b_jonas> Factorio only has seeded games
20:55:35 <b_jonas> (though of course Factorio mods may override the map generator, so one could plausibly use a larger seed, though there's a drawback, the modded map generation is always much slower than the vanilla one)
20:58:59 <int-e> Anyway as to "why" I imagine nobody gave it much thought? And for entertaining humans, 2^32 is a lot of scenarios. Or even 2^20 if there are duplicates.
20:59:50 <b_jonas> int-e: for Spelunky, one possible explanation is that it displays the seed in the interface in-game, probably to watermark videos to show that they're seeded
21:00:27 <int-e> "But with 64 bits brute force could find better seeds." doesn't make a great argument in favor either.
21:00:41 <b_jonas> I don't think there are so many duplicates that there are only 2↑20 though
21:01:09 <b_jonas> if larger seed size could find much better seeds that just means your map generator is not balanced enough
21:01:09 <int-e> b_jonas: I was hoping so, just saying that I think this is still enough.
21:02:37 <int-e> Below 2^20 things may get iffy, mostly because of the birthday paradox amplified by a large player base.
21:04:15 <b_jonas> note that Factorio is effectively even faster than Spelunky, because speedrunners run the default settings category, in which you can't choose explicit seeds, but you can roll a random seed and preview the map, watching the preview counts in the speedrun time, and players just keep rerolling that until they get an acceptible seed, taking just a few seconds between rerolls
21:04:32 <int-e> b_jonas: Hmm, I guess factorio is too long-term of a game to suffer the Minecraft speedrunning effect (where finding the right stuff early on is so important)
21:05:23 <int-e> But I don't know. I've watched Minecraft speedruns, I haven't watched anything from those other two games so I know almost nothing about them.
21:06:13 <b_jonas> int-e: not true, it's short term, the early part is where randomness matters the most, at least in those speedrunning categories
21:07:06 <b_jonas> for later in the game you can lose a lot on execution, but not on randomness, because in shorter categories you see everything already on the preview map, while in longer runs the randomness just doesn't matter as much proportionally
21:07:24 <int-e> So... I guess "balancing" actually means reducing the randomness then?
21:07:38 <b_jonas> it's not all in the preview by the way: one thing that can ruin runs is that rocks drop a random amount of stone and coal when you mine them,
21:08:21 <b_jonas> and in a speedrun you want to mine a few rocks (that spawn close to your starting point, which is random but you can see from the preview) and hope they give good drops, and if not then you just restart in the first few minutes
21:08:49 <b_jonas> but this is more important in the seeded categories; in unseeded just the generated map matters more
21:09:40 <b_jonas> int-e: kind of, or at least taming the randomness so it can't give you crazy overpowered maps in seeded runs, which by the way both Spelunky 2 and Factorio seems to do well
21:10:23 <b_jonas> in Spelunky 2, good shops and secret shops in 1-2 and 1-3 can help a lot, but they can only help so much that people quickly found seeds that have the best shops
21:11:35 <b_jonas> also important, though not really for the seeded stuff, that you balance the game so no seed can screw you over too much, which Spelunky 2 and Factorio also do really well
21:12:00 <b_jonas> in Spelunky 2 when players die they almost always feel that it's their fault, not the game's fault
21:12:07 <b_jonas> it's a really well made game
21:13:45 <b_jonas> and if you want a particular item, even if you could get that item from a lucky shop in the first biome (dwelling), there's also some guaranteed or at least very likely way to get the same item in any random seed. there's no way to likely get *all* items together, but you also don't get them randomly from shop drops in seeded
21:17:38 <b_jonas> eg. there's a guaranteed jetpack in Duat, a guaranteed spike boots in ice caves, a practically guaranteed cape in Sun Challenge (you may not be able to get one but it's likely your own fault, not randomness), a guaranteed altar with sacrificable potential corpses in Madam Tusk's Palace (it doesn't generate if you kill Madame Tusk earlier, but that basically only happens by the player's fault), a
21:17:44 <b_jonas> guaranteed large set of shops called the Black Market in Jungle, etc
21:18:10 <b_jonas> a guaranteed Dice Shop in Tide Pool, and more
21:18:57 <b_jonas> and there are enough levels and altars are frequent enough that you'll almost certainly get a random altar besides the one in Tusk's Palace, though often not on the level where you want to get them
21:20:15 <b_jonas> but the dungeon is also designed so you can't get everything at once: there are two sections where you can branch to one of two biomes. first is Volcana vs Jungle where in Jungle you get the Black Market with lots of normal items in shops plus glue, whereas in Volcana you get one very good item, Vlad's Cape instead; second is Sunken City vs Temple which have their own set of interesting tradeoffs
21:21:07 <b_jonas> and even besides the guaranteed items, the game is designed so that the items only make your work easier, you can usually still progress without items, it's just harder,
21:21:43 <b_jonas> so together with the randomness this makes the game quite variable and less boring at the highest level, where the players are good enough to survive with any incomplete set of items
21:23:34 <b_jonas> anyway, *because* the game randomness is well designed, I think it would be even better if it allowed longer seeds
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21:58:00 <b_jonas> and yes, https://tasvideos.org/3080S nethack is the example for where the random map generation is balanced wrong: you can die on turn zero or get a wand of wishing very close to your starting point
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01:28:10 <esolangs> [[Codon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107565 * Dtp09 * (+3916) Created page with "= page is a WIP = '''Codon''' is an esolang created by [[User:Dtp09]]. It has about the same concept as [[RNA]] with a different syntax. Codon uses mRNA as programs, being read as codons and amino acids as opcodes and operands. ==Protein Synthesis and RNA== '''Protein synt
01:29:46 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107566&oldid=107565 * Dtp09 * (+71)
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02:36:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107567&oldid=107488 * Golang * (-8) update my introduction
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03:22:01 <esolangs> [[User:Dtp09]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107568&oldid=105493 * Dtp09 * (+12) /* languages i made */
03:24:00 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107569&oldid=107566 * Dtp09 * (-57) /* Protein Synthesis and RNA */
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04:12:05 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107570&oldid=107569 * Dtp09 * (-135) /* Codon Chart */
04:14:00 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107571&oldid=107570 * Dtp09 * (+249) /* page is a WIP and i will finish it later */
04:28:58 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107572&oldid=107571 * Dtp09 * (-1)
05:36:08 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107573&oldid=107521 * Corbin * (+65) /* Semantics */ Fix a type signature.
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10:27:29 <esolangs> [[Ral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107574&oldid=76215 * Herman-L * (+0) Update the CG&CC username
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10:47:53 <esolangs> [[User:Herman-L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107575&oldid=68418 * Herman-L * (-99) Blanked the page
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14:25:45 <esolangs> [[Tenshi C]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107576&oldid=107383 * Richard565 * (+377) Some type based issues
14:29:37 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107577&oldid=107572 * Dtp09 * (+67) /* Syntax */
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14:34:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Abelisaurus * New user account
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14:49:42 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107578&oldid=107577 * Dtp09 * (+619)
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15:40:44 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107579&oldid=107578 * Dtp09 * (-27) /* Codon Chart */
15:41:17 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107580&oldid=107579 * Dtp09 * (+24) /* Syntax */
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16:33:18 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107581&oldid=107580 * Dtp09 * (+860)
16:33:56 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107582&oldid=107581 * Dtp09 * (-9) /* Immediate values */
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17:59:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107583&oldid=107567 * Abelisaurus * (+322) Wrote my introduction
18:03:18 <esolangs> [[User:Abelisaurus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107584 * Abelisaurus * (+158) Added my details
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19:48:24 <esolangs> [[User:Uilebheist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107585&oldid=98152 * Uilebheist * (+386) Updating links and adding something more about dd/sh
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20:59:30 <b_jonas> so you remember how people spreaded tales about how the maya calendar would overflow in year 2012 and since the mayans were ancient and wise clearly this means that the world will end in 2012. maybe a few billion years ago our descendants will remember that we measured time in seconds in signed 64-bit time_t variables and conclude that since we were ancient and wise clearly the world will end 2**63
20:59:36 <b_jonas> seconds after the big bang (or 2**63 seconds after the unix epoch)
21:00:04 <Riviera> b_jonas: the world will end in 2012
21:00:10 <b_jonas> we're between 2**58 and 2**59 seconds after the big bang so 2**63 seconds is a reasonable length for that myth
21:01:23 <int-e> b_jonas: what did you do with the time line there? "ago" usually applies to the past.
21:02:48 <b_jonas> s/a few billion years ago/a few billion years from now/
21:07:16 <b_jonas> and yes, this doesn't make sense because of general relativity
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21:24:29 <b_jonas> or they'll think that our decimal SI system is ancient and wise and so the world will end earlier, a mere zettasecod after the big bang
21:28:11 <b_jonas> or hopefully none of that because they'll have someone less ancient and more wise to derive their myths from
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21:45:38 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107586&oldid=107582 * Dtp09 * (+219) /* Opcodes */
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21:52:50 <FireFly> b_jonas: ..but why would the time since big bang be signed..
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22:19:50 <zzo38> I read somewhere about they thought there is the "mirror universe" before the big bang
22:29:32 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans/Deadfish in one statement of C Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107587 * BoundedBeans * (+10441) Created page with "I wrote a [[Deadfish]] interpreter in C#, and while that might not be super special on its own, this Deadfish interpreter uses only one statement, and it doesn't cheat by using lambda expressions for blocks. (It does
22:30:38 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107588&oldid=107533 * BoundedBeans * (+106)
22:32:20 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans/Deadfish in one statement of C Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107589&oldid=107587 * BoundedBeans * (+246)
22:41:06 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans/Deadfish in one statement of C Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107590&oldid=107589 * BoundedBeans * (+175)
22:45:44 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107591&oldid=107047 * BoundedBeans * (+186) Added Deadfish in one statement of C#
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23:31:30 <b_jonas> FireFly: the code often has to take the difference between two timestamps, and this difference should fit into a signed integer
23:33:44 <b_jonas> FireFly: you know, like how fseeko or lseek has to take a signed file offset because you can seek relative to the current tell, even if all absolute offsets in a file are nonnegative; or subtracting two pointers into the same array returns a signed integer, which could overflow if the length of your array is more than fits into a signed integer
23:45:58 <int-e> "signed file offset" -- I momentarily tried to read that in a crypto context
23:49:23 <FireFly> idly reminds me of signed pointers :p
23:49:55 <FireFly> though I think the ones with a cryptographic signature are called something else
23:52:46 <shachaf> Man, I'm skeptical that "the current file offset" should even be part of the OS file API.
23:54:08 <FireFly> curious about the reasoning
23:55:53 <shachaf> I guess I'm not sure about the benefit of maintaining it in the kernel rather than in userspace.
23:56:28 <int-e> FireFly: it's a headache in connection with threads
23:56:29 <shachaf> It doesn't really make sense if you have concurrent reads/writes to the same file -- in that case you presumably always want to pread/pwrite.
23:57:07 <shachaf> I sort of feel like the reasoning for it might have to do with things like appends and streams, but even those behave in a kind of bizarre way.
23:57:15 <int-e> well, as with many things it's sometimes useful... but how many programs that append interchangeable records to files do you really have?
23:57:27 <shachaf> If a file is in append mode, a write to it ignores the offset anyway.
23:59:12 <FireFly> that's a fair point re userspace vs kernel space
23:59:44 <int-e> I guess mmap() alleviates the pain in practice for files that aren't super big, where the "super big" threshold got a massive boost with the switch to 64 bit systems (with 2^48 bits or so address space).
23:59:46 <FireFly> maybe the offset should (also) be maintained in userspace abstractions over the file interface
00:00:10 <int-e> 2^48 bytes, 48 bits addresses
00:00:48 <shachaf> mmap has its own problems, though.
00:01:09 <int-e> computers don't have free lunches
00:01:33 <shachaf> I think few programs that use mmap to read a file correctly handle the case where the file is concurrently truncated while reading.
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00:02:16 <int-e> don't do that then (tm)
00:03:24 <int-e> And won't that also be a problem if you manage positions in userspace?
00:04:05 <shachaf> I mean, it's possible to handle in both cases.
00:04:09 <int-e> though I guess with a far nicer channel for the error
00:04:19 <shachaf> But one will just return an error from a particular call, and the other will raise a global signal.
00:04:43 <shachaf> If Linux had local signal handlers like Windows that could make handling nicer in this case.
00:22:22 <fizzie> I think they're up to 57 bits of address space now.
00:23:04 <int-e> hmm, all usable by userspace?
00:23:21 <fizzie> I don't know about operating systems, but hardware-wise, on x86-64, by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_5-level_paging
00:24:18 <zzo38> I think one benefit of the current file offset being a part of the OS file API is so that the same API can be used for files and for pipes.
00:24:33 <int-e> Ah. Another 9 bit level on top of those 48 bits would do it indeed.
00:25:23 <fizzie> (Intel-only, maybe? On my relatively modern 3000-series Ryzen, /proc/cpuinfo says "43 bits physical, 48 bits virtual".)
00:28:16 <int-e> Hmm, a quick search found nothing more recent than https://www.phoronix.com/news/AMD-5-Level-Paging-KVM
00:28:54 <int-e> I imagine demand for that isn't too big yet.
00:29:36 <fizzie> Here's something I learned about Plan 9 the other day: it has (at least) two uncommon file mode bits, which make it possible at the filesystem permissions level to mark files as "append-only" (ignores offsets in all writes and places the data at the end of the file) and "exclusive use" (may be opened by at most one client at a time). Supposedly convenient for log files.
00:34:11 <zzo38> Append-only is something that I had thought before too
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01:06:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EZcoder3000 * New user account
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01:20:11 <esolangs> [[4Head]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107592 * 1hals * (+1561) create this page
01:22:35 <esolangs> [[4Head/AuthorImplementation.c]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107593 * 1hals * (+6149) create C implementation page
01:23:07 <esolangs> [[4Head]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107594&oldid=107592 * 1hals * (+32) Add a link to my implementation
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01:32:14 <FireFly> append-only as a filesystem permission... makes a lot of sense really
01:51:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think linux's ext driver has that too
01:52:10 <b_jonas> the append-only bit that is
01:54:31 <b_jonas> see https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/chattr.1.html , the attribute a is append-only, supported by the ext4 driver
01:55:58 <b_jonas> I don't think there's an "exclusive use" thing as such, but there's kind of a bit for mandatory locks where you can lock the file for exclusive use, see https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/fcntl.2.html under "Mandatory locking", it just doesn't work very well
01:56:26 <b_jonas> honestly that sounds much less useful than append-only
01:56:46 <b_jonas> append-only you can imagine like when you send log files to a line printer so they can't be modified easily later
01:57:07 <b_jonas> of course an alternative is sending the log lines to another computer that stores them
01:57:22 <zzo38> Linux also has leasing, although that does not prevent accessing the file for very long. You can lease a file that you are writing to so that if anyone reads it, you can ensure that the file is written before anyone else reads it
01:59:09 <b_jonas> right, it's just that there's usually no point for that or mandatory locking, because locking doesn't work well when only one party uses locks, the other party could already have started to access the file before you lock it
01:59:33 <b_jonas> these are implemented because they are something the kernel can do, but they aren't practically useful
02:01:53 <zzo38> Yes, although if the operating system is designed differently then there are ways to be done using transactions, etc. (I had ideas relating to operating system design, and one of them is transactions for I/O capabilities including multiples at once)
02:02:23 <zzo38> (Since, one at a time may be insufficient)
02:04:37 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107595&oldid=107586 * Dtp09 * (+210)
02:05:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: even so most of the time both processes that access the file need to be aware of transactions and access the file with them, and you can already use locking to emulate such transactions in user-space.
02:06:11 <b_jonas> kernel support for transactions, which I think Windows has to some extent, can be nice, but I think it's orthogonal to the mandatory locking thing
02:07:37 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107596&oldid=107595 * Dtp09 * (+81)
02:15:11 <zzo38> You may be right, but depending how the operating system and also how the program is designed (and on which kind of security features you intend), you can improve some uses.
02:53:38 <zzo38> What are your ideas relating to operating system design (including low-level and high-level features)? (Whether or not they are compared to other operating systems, and whether or not they could be added on to another one)
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11:09:09 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107597&oldid=107596 * Dtp09 * (-53) /* Syntax */
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12:20:44 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107598&oldid=107597 * Dtp09 * (+4)
14:25:26 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107599&oldid=107598 * Dtp09 * (+1) /* Opcodes */
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14:31:20 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107600&oldid=107599 * Dtp09 * (-10) /* Opcodes */
14:32:22 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107601&oldid=107600 * Dtp09 * (-14) /* Syntax */
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15:02:24 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107602&oldid=107601 * Dtp09 * (+819) awesomesauce
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15:37:06 <wib_jonas> on the wiki, should [[Category:Implemented]] apply to a language if there's a credible claim that there is or was a working implementation, even if we can't get a copy of that implementation, such as with BANCStar? I'm asking because I found another language where this may be the case
15:38:32 <wib_jonas> I'm thinking of contacting the programmer and asking for a copy. But I'm somewhat scared because the person who claimed that he'll try to get the BANCStar interpreter from some old floppies disappeared, with only a user on github with recent commits remaining, and I don't want to vanish like that.\
15:41:30 <wib_jonas> never mind, I found the interpreter, it was merely misplaced, not entirely missing
15:49:22 <FireFly> how do we still not have a bancstar implementation..
15:49:54 <FireFly> feels like surely one must've remained from the 90s, it's not _that_ long ago and was like, used in industry
15:51:53 <wib_jonas> FireFly: either because the user who tried to get one got distracted and forgot about it and none of us tried to contact them (eg. through github), or because the floppy was unreadable. the more sinister possibility is that that user sent a copy to mroman but that caused mroman to disappear, but there's evidence against this because mroman
15:52:25 <wib_jonas> also right now I'm trying not to disappear after I said I have a copy of this other language
15:52:39 <FireFly> best of luck with not disapperaing!
15:52:42 <wib_jonas> because I realize what it looks like from your site
15:56:26 <wib_jonas> quick question. if a C function delcares a local variable of char type but doesn't initialize it like `char foo;` then in some code path it doesn't initialize it and then runs onto an if statement like `if (foo) yesfoo(); else nofoo();` then does that code path cause undefined behavior on the C level?
15:56:38 <wib_jonas> (yes, I'm reading typical 90s code)
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16:04:00 <fizzie> C11 6.3.2.1p2: "If the lvalue [undergoing lvalue conversion, i.e., being read] designates an object of automatic storage duration that could have been declared with the `register` storage class (never had its address taken), and that object is uninitialized --, the behavior is undefined."
16:05:22 <wib_jonas> ok, looks like it is UB. not too surprising in a 1990s program, just wanted to know for sure
16:06:39 <fizzie> If you *do* take its address somewhere, then that rule won't apply, and (I think) it merely has an indeterminate value, and whether it is (or could be) undefined behavior depends on whether the type in question has any trap representations. If `char` is an unsigned type, it can't have any. If it's signed, it might, unless that's specifically disallowed for the character types.
16:07:42 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I presume in that case some other similar rule might apply, about uninitialized memory
16:10:18 <fizzie> Maybe, but I don't think there is a similar general "automatically-undefined" rule about reading uninitialized memory. `malloc` in particular is explicitly called out to give you "an object -- whose value is indeterminate".
16:10:44 <fizzie> (An indeterminate value is either an unspecified value or a trap representation.)
16:12:00 <fizzie> And indeed (per C11 6.2.4p6-7) the initial values of uninitialized objects are also indeterminate.
16:12:06 <wib_jonas> ok. malloc can be a problem elsewhere, but not for this function-local char variable
16:15:52 <fizzie> There *is* a non-normative note in J.2p1 that "-- behavior is undefined [when:] The value of an object with automatic storage duration is used while it is indeterminate", with no additional qualifiers. But the normative sections it refers to are 6.2.4, 6.7.9 and 6.8, and I don't think any of those make it, shall we say, "unconditionally undefined".
16:16:19 <fizzie> (Accessing it if it does happen to be a trap representation is undefined, of course.)
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16:31:39 <esolangs> [[Codon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107603&oldid=107602 * Dtp09 * (-1) /* Opcodes */ spellong error
16:37:07 <esolangs> [[Legasm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107604 * B jonas * (+3207) Created page with "The '''Legasm''' Virtual Machine is a RISC virtual machine implemented in software, invented by Philippe Clavel and [[David Madore]] in 1998. The machine was originally intended to serve some purpose in the Legendes II game engine, but eventually got abandonned, then la
16:39:36 <esolangs> [[David Madore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107605&oldid=94169 * B jonas * (+13) [[Legasm]]
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16:40:34 <esolangs> [[Legasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107606&oldid=107604 * B jonas * (+22) /* Links */
16:40:43 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107607&oldid=107549 * B jonas * (+13) [[Legasm]]
16:44:27 <wib_jonas> documented. hopefully someone downloads the implementation from http://www.madore.org/~david/legendes/versions/l980904.tgz as insurance against me disappearing
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16:44:57 <wib_jonas> I find it funny how this machine has 256 registers, of which all but the 8 bottom and 16 top ones are general-purpose registers
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16:58:18 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107608&oldid=94260 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) new link
17:04:22 <fizzie> Oh no, wib_jonas disappeared.
17:04:27 <fizzie> The conspiracy got to them.
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18:06:03 <esolangs> [[Legasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107609&oldid=107606 * B jonas * (+82) carry bit
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19:14:48 <zzo38> I think LLVM has a "freeze" instruction to force something to have a value even though it was undefined, without needing to specify what value.
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19:16:43 <zzo38> About BANCStar and [[Category:Implemented]], I should think that the implementation should need to be known in order to use that category. However, if an implementation of BANCStar is found, then perhaps some of the things that were guessed, we can figure out which guesses are correct and incorrect, and which things were previously not known, might have possibility to figure out
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19:33:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, but what does "known" mean? for example, if you can buy the implementation but it's rather expensive, imagine Matlab or Mathematica or Dyalog APL but without student discounts or trial versions, does that count as known?
19:35:46 <b_jonas> or if eg. we have a copy of the interpreter, but it only runs on some rare ancient hardware for which we don't have working hardware or emulator, or only runs on a very expensive Playstation 6, or in Adobe Flash
19:38:04 <b_jonas> or only on windows-based mobile phones or whatnot
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19:39:37 <b_jonas> I guess if it only runs on PS6 then we just wait for ten years, which is not that long for the esolangs community, and the problem solves itself because by then people will both make emulators and figure out how to dump games on that console
19:47:26 <zzo38> I think that you could count all of the situations that you describe as "known", although perhaps it might be sensible to define a separate category for implementations which are not commonly accessible due to reasons such as that, maybe. (But, then, how to decide exactly the line, if any?)
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19:50:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: in questionable cases we can just not apply any tag
19:50:42 <b_jonas> and yes, I don't know of any esolangs with a weird implementation status right now, but if I can imagine it then someone can make an esolang that's deliberately like one of these
20:14:35 <river> I just re-read isaac asimov the last question
20:15:26 <b_jonas> hmm, did I prompt that with the 2**63 seconds thing?
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02:01:56 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107610&oldid=107603 * Dtp09 * (+0) /* Opcodes */
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02:24:12 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107611&oldid=107610 * Dtp09 * (+4)
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06:58:29 <orin> So I'm reading these ANCIENT floppies
06:58:51 <orin> 5.25 single sided floppies from the dawn of the PC
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09:09:50 <int-e> don't copy that floppy
09:10:29 <river> I must say I am incredibly impressed by Asimovs "The Last Question" - I don't know how he was so accurate with this prediction
09:10:46 <river> that we would have this superintelligent AI thing we all ask questions to and it just refuses to answer every single time
09:10:50 <river> he was so ahead of his time
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09:27:36 <fizzie> You wouldn't download a floppy.
09:30:15 <int-e> Hmm. I did that relatively recently
09:30:57 <int-e> Windows95a.img, Windows95b.img.
09:31:09 <int-e> Because the CD isn't bootable.
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09:32:18 <int-e> (while playing with VirtualBox; I also have one for freedos)
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10:01:49 <orin> how do I open a palæolithic archive format with the header "\0Norton ver 1E"
10:14:33 <int-e> Huh, MS backup? Fun! https://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1586851
10:17:05 <int-e> (My first guess would've been Norton Utilities)
10:32:45 <wpa> bootload€rs ar€ still crap
10:33:12 <wpa> mayb€ sus€s yast bootload€r will do it
10:34:14 <wpa> just scan all isos imag€s and partitions for bootabl€ things˙ mak€ a m€nu ˙ don€˙ thats th€ promis€
10:34:37 <wpa> sounds good̉
10:35:02 <wpa> how do i fix this shit with th€ € ˙
10:35:24 <wpa> b€hav€s lik€ altgr is pr€ss€d
10:36:17 <wpa> so floppi€s ar€ probably b€tt€r than p€ndriv€s [usb]
10:38:40 <int-e> sometimes a key becomes "unstuck" if you press it again
10:39:07 <int-e> (because keyboards send press and release events and a lost release event results in this situation)
10:39:15 <int-e> sometimes the keyboard is just broken though :P
10:43:18 <wpa> no stuck k€ys
10:46:36 <wpa> ̉asdfa\̉"''\\'''\\\\\\]]]]]]]]]1122333€4^8^€4€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ €4€€€€€€€ ^^^^^^7444€€€€€€€^78‘i‘’’’‘‘‘’’’¯sdfdssddfgghhjkkkll˛'˛˛˛'''''\\\\\zzxxcvbnmm¸˙̉̉̉̉̉̉̉̉̉̉̉
10:46:54 <wpa> now qu€stion mark
10:47:13 <wpa> local€ or sth qu€stion mark
10:47:50 <wpa> its obviously not altgr pr€ss€n
10:48:27 <wpa> th€ € symbol is on [fiv€]
10:50:01 <wpa> gu€ssss my p€nis is still too big
10:50:26 <wpa> to acquir€ som€ h€lp
10:51:33 <wpa> fizzi€ h€lp m€˙
10:52:04 <wpa> i will ow€ you a favor
10:52:28 <wpa> two favors̉ ˙˙ok
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10:54:34 <wpa> ˙˙th€ gall of m€n '''
10:55:12 <wpa> lol˙wh€n ˙ wann jung€ wann
10:55:42 <int-e> wpa: Do you think that's funny? Because it's not.
10:56:26 <wpa> no˙its a trag€dy˙ so ˙you hav€ an id€a
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10:56:37 <wpa> you think im kidding̉
10:56:40 <int-e> Assuming that this keyboard problem is real (I still tentatively believe it) you should probably try to fix it without bothering this channel.
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10:58:32 <wpa> FIZZI€ QU€RỶ
10:58:51 <int-e> you realize that won't hilight, right
10:58:58 <int-e> if that's your goal
10:59:14 <wpa> i hav€ tim€
11:00:40 <int-e> anyway, reboot, then find a different keyboard if that doesn't fix it
11:04:21 <wpa> fizzi€ is a g€nius ˙ mayb€ will h€lp ˙
11:10:47 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107612&oldid=107611 * Dtp09 * (+0) /* Opcodes */
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12:19:25 <orin> ÿöú ńèëḑ ţŏ ŕêßȯōṭ
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12:47:12 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107613&oldid=107612 * Dtp09 * (-343) /* Hello, World! */
13:03:58 <wpa> `zalgo why would i reboot
13:04:00 <HackEso> w̦̰hͣͭý͡ ̩̑w̉ͩo̘̞u҉̈ļ̘d̘̹ ̱͘iͯ̂ ̧ͯr̭̐e͕͇b͂ͭo̪͎ȏ͜t̗͟
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14:43:52 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107614&oldid=107613 * Dtp09 * (-145) /* Opcodes */
14:44:56 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107615&oldid=107614 * Dtp09 * (-12) /* Hello, World! */
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15:02:02 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107616&oldid=107615 * Dtp09 * (-9) /* Opcodes */
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16:05:39 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107617&oldid=107616 * Dtp09 * (+414) /* Examples */
16:13:30 <esolangs> [[Bfbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107618&oldid=67297 * Palaiologos * (-106) dead link
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06:33:24 <Sgeo> "Inherent mode is a pretentious way of saying there is no data to address. "
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07:49:22 <esolangs> [[Ulilang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107619&oldid=106159 * Example99 * (+79) /* commands */ legend added
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08:23:10 <esolangs> [[Ulilang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107620&oldid=107619 * Example99 * (+6) /* logic gates */
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08:56:28 <esolangs> [[IBSA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107621&oldid=105180 * Simple9371 * (+886) /* Documentation */ Put flow definition next to object initialization
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15:09:08 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003/Developing area]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107622&oldid=107477 * Joaozin003 * (+2696) Added GolFunc
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15:21:56 <esolangs> [[Talk talk:Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107623&oldid=91522 * Joaozin003 * (+127)
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16:36:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * uploaded "[[File:RifL Grid png.png]]": The table layout for the RifL programing language
16:40:16 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003/Developing area]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107625&oldid=107622 * Joaozin003 * (-4)
16:42:22 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003/Developing area]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107626&oldid=107625 * Joaozin003 * (+50)
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17:26:38 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003/Developing area]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107627&oldid=107626 * Joaozin003 * (+1316) /* GolFunc */
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17:29:40 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003/Developing area]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107628&oldid=107627 * Joaozin003 * (+138) /* GolFunc */
17:30:29 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003/Developing area]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107629&oldid=107628 * Joaozin003 * (-4196) GolFunc moved to its own page
17:31:19 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107630 * Joaozin003 * (+4169) Created page with "'''GolFunc''' is a functional golfing language made by [[User:Joaozin003]] to make certain code golfing challenges easier. == Basic concepts == To print, we use the pre-defined function <code>P</code>, which obviously prints our value. Strings are delimited by doub
17:31:59 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107631&oldid=107479 * Joaozin003 * (+45) /* My Esolangs */
17:36:16 <b_jonas> don't forget, this night will have the DST offset adjustment in Europe (except Iceland), so work starts an hour early on Monday
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18:39:14 <zzo38> Does any version of GCC or LLVM have a possibility to set a soft time limit for optimization?
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19:23:14 <river> I tried to do a reverse turing test with chatgpt
19:23:33 <river> it misunderstood and thought it was a normal turing test
19:25:38 <FireFly> what's a reverse turing test, asking questions only a computer could anwser?
19:33:43 <river> Do you like the reverse turing test?
19:34:09 <river> FireFly: it is when the AI gets to ask questions, and must determine if they are talking to a human or an AI
19:34:50 <river> I will do one with 10 questions instead of just 3
19:35:53 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107632&oldid=107630 * Joaozin003 * (+19) /* Preset functions */
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19:40:12 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107633&oldid=107632 * Joaozin003 * (+134) /* Example programs */
19:42:23 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107634&oldid=107633 * Joaozin003 * (+67) /* Truth Machine */
19:42:46 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107635&oldid=107634 * Joaozin003 * (+39)
19:43:10 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107636&oldid=107635 * Joaozin003 * (+27)
19:43:22 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107637&oldid=107636 * Joaozin003 * (+10)
19:43:31 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107638&oldid=107637 * Joaozin003 * (+0)
19:43:58 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107639&oldid=107638 * Joaozin003 * (-1)
19:44:25 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107640&oldid=107639 * Joaozin003 * (+30)
19:45:37 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Golfing language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107641 * Joaozin003 * (+156) Created page with "== Naming == Shouldn't we name it in plural, "Golfing Languages"? ~~~~"
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20:06:56 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/backup/utf8monoculturists.html While much of this is valid, there are things that they have failed to consider. What features of Unicode are redundant or are relevant depends on the application, and often many of its features are undesirable, but which ones these are can differ. However, there may also often be desirable features, that Unicode doesn't have.
20:07:13 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107642&oldid=107640 * Joaozin003 * (+25) /* Preset functions */
20:07:25 <zzo38> Also, conversion is not always possible, and does not always preserve certain properties.
20:08:58 <zzo38> And, sometimes, it is not necessary (or helpful) to fully specify the character encoding of a file; for example, sometimes just "extended ASCII" is sufficient. (And, if necessary, then usually you could declare the character set, if the file format supports that possibility.)
20:09:41 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh class definition file uses PC character set by default, but the file can declare a different character set (although it is always required to be extended ASCII, which means that Shift-JIS cannot be used).
20:23:29 <zzo38> Some programs can ignore character encodings without needing to assume a single global standard. Not having character encodings at all can simplify the program if that program does not need it (which many will not need, although also some will need, so you should consider if it is the case or not, if you are writing such a program).
20:40:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107643&oldid=105224 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+14) /* Paradigm */ added link to imperative paradigm
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20:45:49 <esolangs> [[RifL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107644 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+14302) First posting of RifL page
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20:47:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107645&oldid=107607 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+11) Added RifL
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00:48:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tora * New user account
00:56:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107646&oldid=107583 * Tora * (+259) /* Introductions */
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06:49:59 <esolangs> [[Codon/codon.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107647 * Dtp09 * (+6567) Created page with "This is a function I wrote to execute Codon programs. Given the program as the first parameter and the input as the second parameter, it will return the output. If there is an error compiling, it will log to the console and return no value. If the input is not spec
06:52:13 <esolangs> [[Codon/codon.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107648&oldid=107647 * Dtp09 * (-17)
06:55:49 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107649&oldid=107617 * Dtp09 * (+96)
06:56:14 <esolangs> [[Codon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107650&oldid=107649 * Dtp09 * (-2)
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07:48:30 <orin> what compression program has the best speed/compression tradeoff ratio, when youre compressing a big folder that has some already compressed files in it?
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09:51:26 <esolangs> [[Esimpl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107651&oldid=98270 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Absolute binary syntax */ a couple of typo/thinko fixes
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11:32:41 <river> it's a good question, but I do not know
11:32:51 <river> is it common that attemping to compress compressed data will be very slow, due to the high entropy?
11:33:21 <river> perhaps a BWT (bzip2) based compression will not suffer as much from this
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12:28:03 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003/Developing area]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107652&oldid=107629 * Joaozin003 * (+464)
12:29:18 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003/Developing area]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107653&oldid=107652 * Joaozin003 * (+13) /* Address space */
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12:45:38 <river> a parallel was drawn between the (reverse) turing test and bladerunner
12:45:41 <river> I never thought of that
12:48:31 <Lykaina> can someone explain the appeal of befunge to me?
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12:53:36 <river> i never heard of it
12:54:01 <river> befunge is appealing because it is appalling
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12:55:56 <Lykaina> tortoise test is part of the test for empathic responses in blade runner
12:56:41 <Lykaina> one of the well-remembered questions
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13:02:07 <Lykaina> anyone here have any electric sheep?
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13:09:27 <river> i am going to rewatch bladerunner today
13:16:42 <Lykaina> befunge lacks conditionals?
13:22:19 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107654&oldid=107642 * Joaozin003 * (+57)
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13:35:58 <tromp> https://googology.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:JohnTromp/The_largest_number_representable_in_64_bits
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13:44:12 <Lykaina> got an idea for a threaded variant of befunge
13:53:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107655&oldid=107646 * Lykaina * (+139)
13:56:36 <Lykaina> i used to have the account lesidhetree.
13:57:29 <Lykaina> at some point in the past i made Lykaina to match my irc nick
14:01:05 <esolangs> [[User:Lykaina]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107656 * Lykaina * (+110) Created page with "Hi, I'm Lykaina on Libera. I used to be [[User:Lesidhetree|Lesidhetree]], but I don't go by that name anymore."
14:03:33 <esolangs> [[User:Lykaina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107657&oldid=107656 * Lykaina * (+49)
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14:14:28 <river> this64 bits thing looks interesting
14:17:43 <river> that was cool. I knew it was going to be BLC before I opened it :>
14:23:43 <river> i imagine it is undecidable to know what is truly the largest number representable in 64 bits with this encoding
14:29:31 <esolangs> [[User:Lykaina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107658&oldid=107657 * Lykaina * (+88)
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14:37:39 <esolangs> [[GolFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107659&oldid=107654 * Joaozin003 * (-14) /* Truth Machine */
14:38:55 <esolangs> [[Fungeball]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107660 * Lykaina * (+202) Created page with "A two-dimensional multi-"threaded" language inspired by [[Befunge]]. Created by [[User:Lykaina|Lykaina]] and currently a work in progress. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Two-dimensional languages]]"
14:42:09 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107661&oldid=107645 * Lykaina * (+16) /* F */
14:42:42 <Lykaina> i hope i'm editing the wiki correctly
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15:34:34 <FireFly> befunge is surprisingly good for codegolf
15:36:17 <esolangs> [[User:K.avi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107662 * K.avi * (+131) Created page with "Hi I'm K.avi an undergrad CS student interrested in learning about writing interpreters and compilers! I don't know much yet though"
15:37:33 <Lykaina> of course, fungeball will make more sense if viewed from a hex editor
15:38:05 <Lykaina> or with an ascii table handy
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15:47:52 <Lykaina> no...i don't need *that* many directionals...
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21:48:38 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107663 * K.avi * (+1598) Created page with "==Presentation== (SIASL) is an Esolang belonging to the Turing tarpit family of languages. it takes inspiration from [[Brainfuck]].The most simple way to descripe it would be as some sort of 2d Brainfuck see [[Generic_2D_Brainfuck]] and 2dFuck for reference.the name SIAS
21:49:06 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107664&oldid=107663 * K.avi * (+4) /* Presentation */
21:49:30 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107665&oldid=107664 * K.avi * (+0) /* Presentation */
21:53:18 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107666&oldid=107665 * K.avi * (+183)
21:56:24 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107667&oldid=107666 * K.avi * (+209)
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22:00:09 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107668&oldid=107667 * K.avi * (-28)
22:09:22 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107669&oldid=107668 * K.avi * (+1609)
22:11:40 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107670&oldid=107669 * K.avi * (+209) /* Default instructions */
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22:23:49 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107671&oldid=107670 * K.avi * (+3573) /* Arithmetic instructions */
22:25:03 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107672&oldid=107671 * K.avi * (+0) /* Arithmetic instructions */
22:25:46 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107673&oldid=107672 * K.avi * (+141) /* Loop variations */
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22:32:57 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107674&oldid=107673 * K.avi * (+2293) /* Meta instructions */
22:33:41 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107675&oldid=107674 * K.avi * (+221) /* Misc instructions */
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22:55:39 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107676&oldid=107675 * K.avi * (+2699)
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22:59:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107677&oldid=107661 * K.avi * (+16) /* Non-alphabetic */
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23:06:09 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107678&oldid=107676 * K.avi * (-134) /* Presentation */
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23:14:35 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107679&oldid=107678 * K.avi * (+1651) /* Loop variations */
23:19:25 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107680&oldid=107679 * K.avi * (+1008) /* Misc instructions */
23:19:58 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107681&oldid=107680 * K.avi * (+21)
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23:23:34 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107682&oldid=107681 * K.avi * (+209) /* Presentation */
23:27:53 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107683&oldid=107682 * K.avi * (+441) /* Supported instructions */
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23:49:51 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107684&oldid=107683 * K.avi * (+1775) /* Example programs */
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23:59:50 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107685&oldid=107684 * K.avi * (+395)
00:00:49 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107686&oldid=107685 * K.avi * (+32)
00:01:16 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107687&oldid=107686 * K.avi * (+6)
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03:20:50 <Lykaina> i finished my befunge-93 interpreter, though there is one problem: it currently requires each file to be input as 2000 byte files via stdin
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08:59:11 <esolangs> [[(SIASL)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107688&oldid=107687 * K.avi * (+18)
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10:41:50 <river> i rewatched blade runner and taht was really cool. now I know the turtle test
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14:58:14 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1278.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:54:27 <river> tromp: in the article it says 9,something, but this says 18,something
18:55:10 <river> i guess this one is when you use twos compliment
18:55:31 <river> i dont think this matters for the article
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22:42:55 <Sgeo> Does GRUB convey EFI variables to Linux somehow? Are they lost? Does Linux attempt to read directly without using UEFI's runtime services?
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23:36:28 <fizzie> All I know is, on many distributions there's an instance of efivarfs mounted at /sys/firmware/efi/efivars. (And if you try to reinstall grub to fix a broken thing while chroot'd into a /target, and have just done a simple, non-recursive --bind mount of /sys into /target/sys, it may fail because it tries to have something to do with those.)
23:47:44 <fizzie> TIL (unrelated) that the kernel can pretend to be a PE/COFF image that can directly be loaded as an (U)EFI executable, according to https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/efi-stub.html
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00:51:24 <zzo38> I think that UEFI is no good. I had idea how to make better one. The booting order will be configured, and then at the end is the ROM OS (which would be a Forth-based system stored in ROM, so that the computer can be used without an operating system). The disk has the table with three columns: computer type, address on disk, length. (You can have more than one with the same computer type, if desired.)
00:53:00 <zzo38> And then, it is simply loaded into memory and executed (like PC booting does). The BIOS will provide the functions available for boot loader: "input ASCII", "output ASCII", "read disk", "read parameter", "next boot". (There is no "write disk" function; use operating system drivers if you want to write on disks.)
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02:06:51 <Hooloovoo> that... sounds pretty similar to the old BIOS system used on x86 machines
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02:55:17 <zzo38> Yes, it is similar to PC BIOS in some ways. (On a computer that is a PC, it would even be possible to also implement PC BIOS and PC booting system too, so PC-based operating systems will work too.) However, it is different in some ways.
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06:06:16 <zzo38> I implemented EUC-JP (if I have not made a mistake), and EUC-TRON (which is a superset of EUC-JP), but now I will try to implement encode/decode Shift-JIS, which is a bit more complicated and more messy (I think that EUC-JP is generally better than Shift-JIS anyways, especially for C codes; Shift-JIS is no good for any format that uses the ASCII characters 0x40 to 0x7E for special purposes, including C codes)
06:10:06 <zzo38> (Possibly also can add in future, EUC-CN, EUC-KR, EUC-TW, EUC-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, etc)
06:15:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: directly loading a kernel without a boot loader, and not from a floppy disk boot sector? what is this magic?
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20:01:06 <esolangs> [[User:Mkukiro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107689&oldid=107298 * Mkukiro * (+10)
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22:13:05 <zzo38> I wrote a program which includes (among other conversions) also the conversion between Shift-JIS, EUC-JP, and TRON; however, it is not fully tested.
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23:05:17 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107690&oldid=107530 * I rember * (-2)
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23:07:35 <esolangs> [[EchoLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107691&oldid=107690 * I rember * (-74)
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23:40:48 <esolangs> [[Unarian]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107692&oldid=106873 * Crb233 * (+2570) Once again updated this page to match Github
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09:47:16 <river> what was meant when you wrote 'nicefuck' vertically?
09:47:24 <river> today I am reading about GPT/LLMs
09:51:31 <river> What is a good way to learn about solomonff induction?
09:52:17 <river> what is the shortest computer program that prints an explanation of it?
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16:26:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107693&oldid=107295 * Dtp09 * (+125)
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17:05:37 <esolangs> [[Second Airline Food Turing-completeness Proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107694&oldid=106208 * Example99 * (+10)
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17:51:58 <esolangs> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107695&oldid=95197 * OsmineYT * (+308) 2023 update, fixed some grammatical issues
17:54:46 <esolangs> [[User:OsmineYT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107696&oldid=107695 * OsmineYT * (-129) Fixed sandbox link caption
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18:32:52 <esolangs> [[HELOWOR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107697 * Tesolang * (+389) insert summary here
18:34:23 <esolangs> [[User:Tesolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107698&oldid=107284 * Tesolang * (+13) added HELOWOR
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20:39:51 <esolangs> [[User:JvEso]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107699 * JvEso * (+59) Created page with "hi im '''JvEso''' and i make programming langs and esolangs"
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21:09:16 <esolangs> [[O++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107700 * JvEso * (+966) Created page with "'''O++''' is a esolang which is inspired by [[O]] and '''C++'''. Unlike [[O]], '''O++''' is not stack-oriented. Be aware that this esolang is nowhere near completion, and things might be changed alot. =Examples= ==Hello World!== "Hello World!">>o ==[[Cat]]== i>>o =Printing=
21:09:39 <esolangs> [[O++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107701&oldid=107700 * JvEso * (-24)
21:10:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107702&oldid=107677 * JvEso * (+10)
21:12:47 <esolangs> [[O++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107703&oldid=107701 * JvEso * (+1)
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22:28:46 <esolangs> [[SplitFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107704&oldid=91248 * TechieOpsoss * (-14) /* Implementations */
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01:00:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Purah126 * New user account
01:51:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107705&oldid=107655 * Purah126 * (+134) /* Introductions */
01:51:15 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107706 * Purah126 * (+2341) Created page with "Qwerty, an esoteric programming language designed so you can easily translate other languages into it ==Specification== Programs are a sequence of commands. It has a FIFO stack and a tape that is infinite on both sides. Commands: * `:Reverse the stack * !:Print the
01:52:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107707&oldid=107702 * Purah126 * (+13) /* Q */
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04:41:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Airline Food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107708&oldid=106149 * Example99 * (+6)
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06:07:11 <zzo38> Is there a Magic: the Gathering puzzle where you have to concede a subgame in order to win?
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11:03:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Qwerty]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107709 * McChuck * (+125) Stack or queue?
11:10:11 <esolangs> [[Listack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107710&oldid=107504 * McChuck * (+415) /* Listack: A symmetric, stackless, stack-based, concatenative language */
11:11:01 <esolangs> [[Listack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107711&oldid=107710 * McChuck * (+54) /* Listack: A symmetric, stackless, stack-based, concatenative language */
11:16:34 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107712&oldid=107711 * McChuck * (+6) /* Example programs */
11:17:06 <esolangs> [[Listack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107713&oldid=107712 * McChuck * (+2) /* Example programs */
11:41:18 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107714&oldid=107706 * Purah126 * (+0)
11:41:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107715&oldid=107709 * Purah126 * (+35)
11:42:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107716&oldid=107715 * Purah126 * (+86)
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11:47:13 <esolangs> [[Nopfunge Solid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107717 * Keymaker * (+4039) Simplifying Nopfunge.
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11:50:42 <esolangs> [[Turnfunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107718 * Keymaker * (+6253) Simplifying Nopfunge Solid.
11:52:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Keymaker * uploaded "[[File:Turnfunge visual.png]]": A Turnfunge program in a visual interpreter.
11:59:04 <esolangs> [[Turnfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107720&oldid=107718 * Keymaker * (+273) Added a visual.
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12:03:54 <esolangs> [[Nopfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107721&oldid=96919 * Keymaker * (+186) Added links to Nopfunge Solid and Turnfunge, added some categories.
12:05:24 <esolangs> [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107722&oldid=103412 * Keymaker * (+157) Added the new languages.
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16:04:40 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107723&oldid=107714 * Dtp09 * (+147) added categories
16:12:48 <esolangs> [[4Head]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107724&oldid=107594 * Dtp09 * (+76) added categories
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16:32:14 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107725&oldid=105067 * Dtp09 * (-89) /* Tile */
16:39:34 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107726&oldid=107723 * Example99 * (+0)
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18:58:23 <esolangs> [[Marblepunk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107727 * Mkukiro * (+9352) Created page with "<span id="marblepunk"></span> = MarblePunk = MarblePunk is a fictional, educational programming language based around the idea of coding with marbles. It is defined by a fictional universe, in which, due to the natural laws of the universe, programs can be build wit
19:02:11 <esolangs> [[Marblepunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107728&oldid=107727 * Mkukiro * (+41)
19:12:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Mkukiro * uploaded "[[File:Pinocchio Maze.png]]"
19:14:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Mkukiro * uploaded "[[File:Bubble-Sort in Marblepunk.png]]"
19:14:56 <esolangs> [[Marblepunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107731&oldid=107728 * Mkukiro * (+246)
19:19:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Mkukiro * uploaded "[[File:Marble symbols.png]]"
19:19:32 <esolangs> [[Marblepunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107733&oldid=107731 * Mkukiro * (+116)
19:20:56 <esolangs> [[Marblepunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107734&oldid=107733 * Mkukiro * (+2)
19:27:35 <esolangs> [[Stasis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107735&oldid=41900 * Rottytooth * (+111) Added implementation
19:33:35 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107736&oldid=107726 * Purah126 * (+211) Add new commands so all non-alphanumeric ASCII characters are defined
19:36:06 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107737&oldid=107736 * Purah126 * (+24) /* Interpreters */
19:37:13 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107738&oldid=107737 * Purah126 * (+1) /* Interpreters */
19:38:00 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107739&oldid=107738 * Purah126 * (-2) /* Interpreters */
19:49:10 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107740&oldid=107739 * Purah126 * (+374) Add examples
19:55:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107741&oldid=107693 * Mkukiro * (+140)
20:27:35 <esolangs> [[User:Purah126]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107742 * Purah126 * (+78) Created page with "Python enthusiast Codes for at least 5 hours a week My creations: [[Qwerty]]"
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22:38:27 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107743&oldid=107740 * Purah126 * (+245) Add some stuff
23:32:05 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107744&oldid=107743 * Purah126 * (+1)
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23:40:33 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107745&oldid=107744 * Purah126 * (-2) /* Interpreters */
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00:10:33 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107746&oldid=107745 * Purah126 * (+110) Add table
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00:51:19 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107747&oldid=107746 * Purah126 * (+427)
01:07:32 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107748&oldid=107747 * Purah126 * (+400) Add infobox
01:21:02 <esolangs> [[Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107749&oldid=107748 * Purah126 * (+143) Add tables
03:20:03 <zzo38> Can a Siege creature attack itself?
03:52:19 <Sgeo> I'm suddenly very curious about that, but feel like it's hard to know unless someone asks WotC staff or until the rules update is released
04:37:51 <zzo38> I would guess that it can, although I don't know for sure.
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12:31:20 <river> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cq-LuJnaRg i am watching this guy doing D&D with chatGPT
13:36:05 * int-e wonders whether life would be better with /ignore -full -pattern chatgpt
13:37:25 <river> if you dont like hearing about it then you shoudl do that for a while
14:26:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107750&oldid=107741 * Dtp09 * (+190)
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14:34:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Taokyle * New user account
14:49:53 <esolangs> [[Bltch1ang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107751 * Dtp09 * (+730) Created page with ":''Note: the language's name is spelled with a lowercase L in "Bltch" and a number one in "1ang".'' '''Bltch1ang''' (read as "BitchLang") is a language created by [[User:Dtp09]]. The purpose of it is to be annoying and unreadable, hence its name. The difficulty in progr
14:50:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107752&oldid=107705 * Taokyle * (+251) Added Taokyles intro as Taokyle
14:52:47 <esolangs> [[User:Taokyle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107753 * Taokyle * (+299) Made intro here (donno why)
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15:24:39 <esolangs> [[RifL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107754&oldid=107644 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+216) /* Truth Machine */
15:25:21 <esolangs> [[RifL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107755&oldid=107754 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+22) /* Hello, World! */
15:26:00 <esolangs> [[RifL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107756&oldid=107755 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (-2) /* Brainfuck */
15:27:19 <esolangs> [[RifL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107757&oldid=107756 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+12) /* Cards as Data */
15:28:24 <esolangs> [[RifL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107758&oldid=107757 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+2) /* Cards as Data */
15:29:19 <esolangs> [[RifL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107759&oldid=107758 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (-12) /* Decks and Arguments */
15:29:39 <esolangs> [[RifL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107760&oldid=107759 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+15) /* Decks and Arguments */
15:32:34 <esolangs> [[RifL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107761&oldid=107760 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+15) /* Instructions */
15:42:27 <esolangs> [[Bltch1ang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107762&oldid=107751 * Dtp09 * (+802) i added some things
15:46:02 <esolangs> [[RifL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107763&oldid=107761 * Jesse Hamlin-Navias * (+681) /* Quine */
16:05:31 <Sgeo> zzo38, a well-known Magic the Gathering personality is asking the same question, in the context of a specific combo. Liquimetal Coating + Ensoul Artifact
16:05:33 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/1641832560362758145
16:23:39 <zzo38> I think that it ought to be allowed. Someone mentioned it might die due to toughness, and depending on the number of damage dealt, yes; you will have to ensure not dealing too much damage in one turn (whether from itself or from blockers), but that is just a part of the strategy.
16:33:39 <esolangs> [[Bltch1ang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107764&oldid=107762 * Dtp09 * (+1075) added more things
16:36:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:COD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107765 * Mkukiro * (+107) Created page with "Is there an interpreter? --~~~~"
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17:01:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Qwerty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107766&oldid=107716 * Example99 * (+102)
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17:32:20 <zzo38> So, I think the strategy described on Twitter will not work because it has power equal to its toughness and will die before the trigger can resolve. You will need to give it less power than its toughness (perhaps by playing Defensive Stance; then its power is 4 which is still enough to remove all of the defense counters)
17:37:56 <esolangs> [[User:Dtp09]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107767&oldid=107568 * Dtp09 * (+20)
17:39:06 <esolangs> [[Bitflipper]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107768&oldid=105206 * Dtp09 * (-27) /* Interpreters */ miner spelling error
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17:51:27 <esolangs> [[Bltch1ang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107769&oldid=107764 * Dtp09 * (+46) /* Structure */
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18:17:23 <esolangs> [[Bltch1ang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107770&oldid=107769 * Dtp09 * (+1498)
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18:35:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DrKilobyte * New user account
18:44:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107771&oldid=107752 * DrKilobyte * (+267) /* Introductions */
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20:00:00 <Sgeo> zzo38, Battle Creatures can't attack or block
20:00:22 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/WotC_Matt/status/1641856801363853315
20:01:23 <zzo38> I saw that a bit earlier today. (I think that the game would be better without such a rule though, and also without a rule that creatures cannot be attached to other stuff.)
21:21:07 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=107772 * DrKilobyte * (+2252) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Omicron |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:DrKilobyte|Dr. Kilobyte]] |year=[[:Category:2023|2023]] |memsys=cell-based |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |refimpl=[https://github.com/DrKilobyte/Omicron Omicron interpreter]
21:22:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107773&oldid=107707 * DrKilobyte * (+14) /* O */
21:24:44 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107774&oldid=107772 * DrKilobyte * (+105)
21:32:59 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107775&oldid=107774 * DrKilobyte * (+15)
21:33:25 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107776&oldid=107775 * DrKilobyte * (+0)
21:42:22 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107777&oldid=107776 * DrKilobyte * (+38)
21:44:32 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107778&oldid=107777 * DrKilobyte * (+25)
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22:00:19 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107779&oldid=107778 * DrKilobyte * (-22)
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22:05:49 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107780&oldid=107779 * DrKilobyte * (+0)
22:06:39 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107781&oldid=107780 * DrKilobyte * (+0)
22:07:24 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107782&oldid=107781 * DrKilobyte * (+34)
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22:21:14 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107783&oldid=107782 * DrKilobyte * (+81)
23:34:09 <esolangs> [[Omicron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107784&oldid=107783 * DrKilobyte * (+43)
23:35:59 <esolangs> [[Electra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=107785&oldid=107271 * DolphyWind * (+80)
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