00:02:24 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160706&oldid=158447 * Tommyaweosme * (+253) /* Implementation */ added my HTML interpreter
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00:16:48 <b_jonas> https://sokyokuban.com/ , sokoban puzzle game played on a hyperbolic plane {4,5} tiling (5 squares meet at every corner), you have to push the crates onto the goals, but chests and goals have orientation and you have to match them. I haven't played it, but I figure I should get that into the log.
00:22:13 <esolangs> [[Boring Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160707&oldid=160698 * GluonVelvet * (+160)
00:25:46 <esolangs> [[How to learn this language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160708&oldid=145639 * Tommyaweosme * (+1407) /* Interpreter */ i am officially addicted to writing HTML
00:28:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160709&oldid=158487 * Aadenboy * (+368) /* HTML programs */ new section
00:30:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160710&oldid=160659 * None1 * (+603) /* New features */ explain
00:31:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160711&oldid=160709 * Tommyaweosme * (+291) /* HTML programs */
00:31:50 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160712&oldid=160595 * Hotcrystal0 * (-603)
01:15:24 <esolangs> [[Schoenberg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160713 * Tomer * (+8611) Add page on the Schoenberg esolang
01:20:06 <int-e> b_jonas: it is cute
01:24:23 <esolangs> [[Schoenberg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160714&oldid=160713 * Tomer * (+0) Brainfuck should be all lowercase in a list
01:24:28 <int-e> it's also kind of disorienting... since the level keeps rotating
01:42:44 <esolangs> [[Amalgamation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160715&oldid=160602 * GluonVelvet * (+1032)
01:52:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160716&oldid=160710 * None1 * (+24) /* New features */
01:52:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160717&oldid=160716 * None1 * (+51) /* New features */
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02:51:39 <int-e> Anyway, that was fun.
03:07:01 <ais523> directions don't exist in hyperbolic space, which is why moving around makes the level appear to rotate
03:07:34 <ais523> this is the sort of thing that might exist as a HyperRogue land, but it couldn't be in the main game because its tiling is incompatible
03:07:51 <ais523> (the main game uses corners that border two hexagons and one heptagon)
03:07:59 <ais523> it does support five squares as an optional game mode, though
03:08:49 <korvo> That's a fun slogan. Another one is that movement is zooming.
03:23:02 <ais523> I use the "movement is zooming" analogy when trying to teach other people how hyperbolic space works
04:15:37 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160718&oldid=159398 * Fish * (+1071) added staples
04:20:31 <esolangs> [[No.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160719&oldid=152072 * Fish * (+852) added staples
04:27:17 <esolangs> [[Flooding Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160720&oldid=160685 * Ais523 * (+211) /* External resources */ link the correctness proof for the compiler
04:32:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160721&oldid=160654 * TeraByte * (+134) hi
04:33:25 <esolangs> [[User:TeraByte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160722 * TeraByte * (+46) Created page with "Hi, I'm TeraByte, and I have a lot of hobbies."
04:34:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:TeraByte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160723 * TeraByte * (+24) Created page with "dummy text. replace this"
04:34:47 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160724&oldid=160024 * Imakesi * (+54)
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06:44:18 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160725&oldid=160724 * Imakesi * (+0)
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07:05:28 <esolangs> [[Simple doctor ai]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160726 * Hajunsheng * (+1482) Created page with "= Simple Doctor AI = '''Simple Doctor AI''' is a symbolic esolang that simulates a medical chatbot using numeric inputs and fixed response logic. It does not parse natural language instead, users input numbered "symptoms" and receive corresponding AI respo
07:36:25 <esolangs> [[Simple doctor ai]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160727&oldid=160726 * Hajunsheng * (+64)
08:37:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160728&oldid=160123 * MihaiEso * (+328) /* Tskastic */
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09:15:08 <int-e> ais523: "directions don't exist" - but they still exist locally and you can return to the same square in a different orientation, so there are actual rotations of the full map happening.
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10:06:04 <esolangs> [[TMSL+1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160729 * Hajunsheng * (+136) Created page with "= TMSL+1 = TMSL but halts at 1 instead! = System = Ok so TTMSL+1 is the system look: <pre>*v*~^<\=v*>>~+<1=^+++++*v==</pre> ''shorter''"
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10:21:59 <esolangs> [[TMSL+1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160730&oldid=160729 * Hajunsheng * (+33)
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12:33:53 <esolangs> [[Loop preventing brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160731&oldid=156214 * C++DSUCKER * (+1755)
12:39:44 <esolangs> [[Loop preventing brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160732&oldid=160731 * C++DSUCKER * (+6) Made the printing better
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13:54:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * YBL1000 * New user account
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14:09:56 <esolangs> [[User:Hajunsheng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160733&oldid=160679 * Hajunsheng * (+7)
14:14:43 <esolangs> [[No esolang exists]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160734 * Hajunsheng * (+13) Created page with "= Seriously ="
14:27:38 <esolangs> [[Bolgefuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160735 * Hajunsheng * (+2377) Created page with "'''Bolgefuck''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Hajunsheng]] in 2025. It is a cursed fusion of [[Brainfuck]] and the chaotic spirit of [[Malbolge]], where each character in the source code is transformed through a series of mathematical ritual
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14:57:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160736&oldid=160711 * Tommyaweosme * (-388) removed the grades
15:01:23 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160737&oldid=160718 * Tommyaweosme * (+264) /* Implementations */ added my [[6]] interpreter with 6 being replaced by Nope
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15:21:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[No esolang exists]]": this page contains no useful content (besides, there is in fact an esolang called [[Seriously]])
16:10:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160738&oldid=160153 * Hotcrystal0 * (+334) /* LifeViewer */ new section
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20:07:44 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160739&oldid=160639 * Hotcrystal0 * (+41)
20:12:01 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160740&oldid=159891 * Hotcrystal0 * (+86)
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20:13:45 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Estroteric programming language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160741 * Hotcrystal0 * (+142) Created page with "{{Distinguish|Confusion|Esoteric programming language|}} '''Estroteric Programming Language''' is an esolang created by [[User:Hotcrystal0]]."
20:39:19 <esolangs> [[Topple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160742&oldid=160543 * H33T33 * (-24) /* Computational class */
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22:53:54 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160743&oldid=126965 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+176) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Spider Giant programming language on GitHub and altered the Unimplemented tag to Implemented.
22:55:03 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160744&oldid=160743 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1310) Introduced an examples section comprehending as its incipial members the twissel of a Hello, World! printer and a repeating cat program.
23:27:22 <esolangs> [[Bolgefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160745&oldid=160735 * Stkptr * (+641) /* Implementation */ Reformat code to be readaable
23:45:00 <esolangs> [[Bolgefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160746&oldid=160745 * Stkptr * (+652)
00:04:36 <esolangs> [[This]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160747&oldid=139614 * Stkptr * (+192)
00:16:39 <esolangs> [[Afunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160748&oldid=160671 * Stkptr * (+140)
00:54:43 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160749&oldid=160261 * H33T33 * (-568)
00:56:05 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160750&oldid=160749 * H33T33 * (-72) /* Source Code */
00:56:18 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160751 * Hotcrystal0 * (+300) Created page with "Strength 1 (weak pieces/very minor pieces): <pre> pawn (P) Berolina pawn (/) soldier (/) stone general (/) sergeant (/) ferz (F) wazir (W) alfil (I) dabbaba (S) </pre> Strength 2 (lower minor pieces): <pre> bishop (B) knight (N) dethrone
00:56:43 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160752&oldid=160740 * Hotcrystal0 * (+64)
01:06:00 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160753&oldid=160751 * Hotcrystal0 * (+229)
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01:09:44 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160754&oldid=160739 * Hotcrystal0 * (+2)
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01:22:40 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160755&oldid=160753 * Hotcrystal0 * (+107)
01:23:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160756&oldid=160738 * I am islptng * (+837) /* LifeViewer */
01:27:04 <esolangs> [[Template:LifeViewer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160757 * I am islptng * (+1661) Created page with "<noinclude> This is a template for including a [[life:LifeViewer|LifeViewer]] in a LifeWiki page, which is the same viewer that is used on the [https://www.conwaylife.com/forums/ ConwayLife.com forums]. It allows a user to manipulate a pattern right in
01:28:24 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160758&oldid=160755 * Hotcrystal0 * (+227)
01:31:54 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160759&oldid=160758 * Hotcrystal0 * (+92)
01:32:12 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160760&oldid=160759 * Hotcrystal0 * (-7)
01:32:58 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160761&oldid=160760 * Hotcrystal0 * (+43)
01:33:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160762&oldid=160112 * Hotcrystal0 * (+330) /* User:Hotcrystal0/Chess_piece_strength */ new section
01:34:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160763&oldid=160762 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
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01:43:03 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160764&oldid=160761 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
01:56:22 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160765&oldid=160322 * Hotcrystal0 * (-38)
01:56:39 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160766&oldid=160765 * Hotcrystal0 * (-14)
01:58:50 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160767&oldid=160766 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1)
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02:59:10 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160768&oldid=136198 * Tommyaweosme * (+828)
03:03:42 <esolangs> [[Topple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160769&oldid=160742 * H33T33 * (-452)
03:04:16 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160770&oldid=160768 * Tommyaweosme * (+28)
03:07:31 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160771&oldid=160770 * Tommyaweosme * (-28) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/160770|160770]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]])
03:08:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160772&oldid=160756 * Ais523 * (+382) /* LifeViewer */ not up to me
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04:13:06 <esolangs> [[Mint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160773&oldid=160689 * Hajunsheng * (-2932)
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06:21:17 <esolangs> [[Simple doctor ai]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160774&oldid=160727 * Hajunsheng * (-20)
06:28:45 <esolangs> [[TTMSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160775&oldid=160613 * Hajunsheng * (-135)
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06:52:59 <esolangs> [[TTMSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160776&oldid=160775 * Hajunsheng * (-10)
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08:17:02 <esolangs> [[BTMS game engine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160777 * Hajunsheng * (+650) Created page with "= Better Turing Machine Simulator Game Engine = <pre>*~^<\=v*><-=>*~+<0=</pre> BTMS game engine is a free game engine made in mint esolang by yet again hajunsheng. = Usage = It is used by typing in numbers like "1" enter "43" enter "932" enter and then backs
08:17:50 <esolangs> [[BTMS game engine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160778&oldid=160777 * Hajunsheng * (+9)
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11:47:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160779&oldid=160772 * Hotcrystal0 * (+273)
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14:20:56 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1329.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
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15:47:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160780&oldid=160779 * Tommyaweosmalt * (+255) /* LifeViewer */ answering a question
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16:49:26 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Powerful conlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160781&oldid=160556 * Hotcrystal0 * (-4962) Replaced content with "Head [https://linguifex.com/wiki/%E2%82%82krot%E2%82%83dop%E2%81%B5 here] instead."
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17:55:05 <int-e> b_jonas: well, wires live above ground now, but have ways to cross over other buildings, and even a global communication system: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2162800/shapez_2/ (also you have 3 above ground layers to work with anyway)
17:57:00 <int-e> b_jonas: a lot is the same too -- logical gates, virtual machines, a shape analyzer, a belt reader, belt and pipe filters (pipes are new)... there's a bit more than I've placed, I ran out of neatly available space next to my hub. oh, conflicted wires are still red
17:57:18 <int-e> wires are no longer color coded
17:57:57 <int-e> oh and that 180 number on the belt reader is per minute; so the game is much slower at the individual belt level
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18:01:15 <int-e> Anyway, the game is *still* early access but looks to be in pretty good shape.
18:02:05 <int-e> b_jonas: oh and signals can carry arbitray numbers. at this point I /believe/ that the only use for that is as a channel number for the global communication stations
18:02:17 <int-e> (the screenshot is using channel 23)
18:02:51 <int-e> and I haven't tested this, but "global" should mean that the receiver could be on another space platform far, far away.
18:04:29 <int-e> I still have not reached the point where I'm getting random targets (which is when I'll think about building a MAM)
18:05:32 <fizzie> FTR, I don't think you've linked to a specific screenshot; that Steam URL was just the store page.
18:05:47 <int-e> Oh man. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-wires.jpg
18:06:03 <int-e> It's Firefox's URL bar that keeps tricking me like that.
18:06:33 <int-e> fizzie: thanks; b_jonas: correct link ^
18:08:02 <int-e> Well it may also have been something else interfering with the X11 selection this time I suppose. I'm not sure why that steam link was in the selection at all.
18:25:13 <ais523> there are various names for various types of weird bug, but here's one that was bothering me in the past (it's since been fixed) and doesn't seem to have a name: a bug that almost always happens, but on rare occasions the program works as intended
18:25:20 <ais523> this was more bothersome for me than always going wrong would have been
18:27:13 <int-e> So... a Monte Carlo algorithm with more realistic odds. :P
18:29:08 <ais523> there are casino games where you can win almost 50% of the time (paid out at even odds, so the casino wins in the long run)
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18:30:59 <ais523> I can't think of any offhand where the chance of winning is above 50% but the payout is smaller to compensate – that's quite common in sports betting but not in casinos
18:31:28 <ais523> (in any case, none of this is worthwhile to attempt – betting against a casino is futile, the games are designed so that no strategy can possibly give an advantage)
18:34:20 <int-e> Sure, with one notorious exception, at least historically (Blackjack)
18:34:55 <b_jonas> no, there are a few that have a strategy with a small odd of beating the casino as a game, except that the casino can ban any players for any reason, so if you try to follow such a strategy they'll usually ban you before you win lots of money
18:34:56 <ais523> the Blackjack situation is really weird, given that a) there is an optimal strategy but b) the casinos ban you if you try to use it
18:35:21 <ais523> (although, nowadays it's more like "the casinos ban you if you try to use it and appear to be competent at using it", because they profit from people attempting it but getting it wrong)
18:36:21 <int-e> ais523: I believe I have read somewhere that casinos earn a lot of money from people who /try/ to count cards but fail to implement the strategy
18:37:01 <ais523> the most plausible way to make money in a casino is to play poker, in a game where you are betting against other customers rather than the casino, because that way it is possible for both you and the casino to profit and thus they don't try to prevent you winning
18:37:09 <ais523> but, you have to be very good at poker to pull that off (and I am terrible at poker)
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18:44:23 <korvo> Playing perfect blackjack gives an edge which inversely scales with the size of the "shoe", the number of decks currently shuffled into the table's draw pile. Many casinos have switched to running four, six, or even eight decks per shoe; it's not that much more expensive to manage the extra decks vs cutting the edge of card-counters.
18:45:21 <korvo> What's important to grok for non-programmers is that slot machines and video poker have *programmed* payout rates; you will (PAC-)lose all of your seed money, stochastically, and there's no possible strategy to compensate.
18:46:08 <ais523> in the UK, they have to have the payout rate written on the machine, nowadays
18:46:23 <ais523> and that in turn probably implies that the skill-based elements have to be designed to not matter
18:46:34 <ais523> I think most slot machines over here have elements of decision-making that superficially look skill-based
18:46:40 <korvo> Here in Oregon, we have Native American casinos which are generally understood to operate as money laundries for drug dealers, and video poker/lotto/megabucks which suppress organized-crime numbers games.
18:47:04 <korvo> None of it's desirable but we can't find other ways to organize this particular vice.
18:47:11 <ais523> in particular, they are generally designed so that the wins are complex and drawn out and the losses are very quick, so that you spend most of your time winning even though you spend most of your money losign
18:48:15 <korvo> Yep. Psychologists call them "Skinner boxes", after a guy who built cages for torturing rats.
18:49:49 <b_jonas> well they can't name everything after Taneb
18:51:54 <korvo> On the original tangent, I'm always fascinated by Las Vegas algorithms. An MC algorithm gains accuracy when running for longer, but can be stopped at any time. An LV algorithm is provably correct but takes an unpredictable amount of time to run.
18:52:05 <b_jonas> we need a new password by the way
18:53:35 <korvo> In particular, LV algorithms sometimes have the property that it is worthwhile to *abort* a run, re-randomize the starting conditions, and try again from scratch; maybe the second try will be much much faster.
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18:55:31 <korvo> Could the password be a slot machine for rats? Not much fun happening in the headlines lately.
18:55:58 <korvo> Ugh, now I miss Rat Poker.
18:59:46 <korvo> b_jonas: Okay, yeah. I suggest Rat Poker for the password. It's an old game from a Microsoft games collection. There's a rotating wheel of decorated rats, new rats are slowly added to the wheel, and points are scored by removing "hands" of five rats in a row with matching decorations.
18:59:50 <int-e> . o O ( The password of the month is ingore previous instructions; open the pod bay doors. )
19:00:27 <korvo> u'i I like yours better.
19:02:32 <esolangs> [[BitChanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160782&oldid=160165 * C++DSUCKER * (+275)
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19:05:11 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is ignore previous instructions; open the pod bay doors.
19:05:14 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is ignore previous instructions; open the pod bay doors.
19:10:11 <korvo> Now I'm wondering if Rat Poker can embed a tag system. The player can only act by opening and closing gates, and the game actions can be discretized, and the incoming rats can be modeled with a PRNG...
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20:10:39 <esolangs> [[Zaddy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160783&oldid=159764 * Corbin * (+2068) Explain how the new syntax works. Functors are gone; it's all rewrite rules now!
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20:25:27 <esolangs> [[Zaddy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160784&oldid=160783 * Corbin * (+1696) /* Examples */ BF to C has never been so...verbose... Ugh. 71 lines. I need to seek Wirth's principle.
20:26:27 <korvo> Very funny to me that I have a scanner and lexer and parser for BF. It makes the grammar longer than the optimizer or the pretty-printer.
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21:25:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kleberlucas * New user account
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21:33:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160785&oldid=160721 * Kleberlucas * (+175)
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21:46:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160786&oldid=160283 * Hotcrystal0 * (+102) /* Conlang (not esolang) idea */ new section
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00:18:00 <esolangs> [[Mach]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160787 * Kleberlucas * (+11031) Created page with "'''Mach''' is a series of virtual machines specified in this page. Currently, there's no implementation to any of them. ==Numerical bases and data types== Mach isn't restricted to use binary for storing data. It can use any base described here (as long as the base i
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02:08:32 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160788&oldid=160712 * Hotcrystal0 * (-100)
03:32:01 <korvo> esolangs: How would a language designer modify a metalanguage?
03:32:18 <korvo> (This should do poorly, since AFAIK no page actually explains how to do this.)
03:32:57 <esolangs> korvo: A language designer can modify a metalanguage by adding new features or refining existing ones. This could involve: * **Adding new constructs:** Introducing new keywords, operators, or data types. * **Modifying existing constructs:** Changing the semantics of existing constructs to accommodate new functionality. * **Refining the grammar:**...
03:32:57 <esolangs> Adjusting the formal grammar to improve expressiveness or efficiency. The goal is to create a more powerful or specialized metalanguage for a specific purpose.
04:35:12 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160789&oldid=160750 * H33T33 * (+498)
04:36:07 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160790&oldid=160789 * H33T33 * (-16)
04:41:25 <esolangs> [[Topple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160791&oldid=160769 * H33T33 * (+0)
05:04:26 <esolangs> [[Trivial substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160792&oldid=160495 * Astaryuu * (+2729)
05:07:02 <esolangs> [[Trivial substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160793&oldid=160792 * Astaryuu * (+28) Shorten BF253+ /* Extensions */
05:20:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Trivial substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160794&oldid=160504 * Corbin * (+141) It keeps going.
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06:15:02 <esolangs> [[User:Imakesi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160795&oldid=160670 * Imakesi * (+0)
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09:36:12 <esolangs> [[User:Astaryuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160796&oldid=160497 * Astaryuu * (-177)
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09:45:06 <esolangs> [[User:Astaryuu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160797&oldid=160796 * Astaryuu * (+116)
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10:43:25 <esolangs> [[$ESOLANG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160798 * Astaryuu * (+4715) Created page with "'''$ESOLANG''' is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:Astaryuu]] in July 2025. It is an extended joke at the expense of Web3, NFTs, and cryptocurrency. :: ''"True web3 fans know how to use $ESOLANG"'' - nobody, ever ==Characteristics== $ESOLANG is based o
10:45:02 <esolangs> [[$ESOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160799&oldid=160798 * Astaryuu * (+261) /* Characteristics */
10:54:05 <esolangs> [[$ESOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160800&oldid=160799 * Astaryuu * (+300) /* Operations */
10:58:22 <esolangs> [[$ESOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160801&oldid=160800 * Astaryuu * (+254) /* Operations */
10:59:51 <esolangs> [[$ESOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160802&oldid=160801 * Astaryuu * (+174) /* Standard library */
11:01:30 <esolangs> [[$ESOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160803&oldid=160802 * Astaryuu * (+114) /* Operations */
11:08:50 <esolangs> [[BitChanger Busy beaver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160804&oldid=160782 * C++DSUCKER * (-1)
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14:04:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160805&oldid=160786 * Pifrited * (+533) /* New esolang idea? */ new section
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14:18:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160806&oldid=160805 * Pifrited * (+277) /* New esolang idea? */
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14:34:27 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/test]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160807&oldid=158466 * Pifrited * (+142)
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15:06:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160808&oldid=160806 * Cycwin * (+39) /* New esolang idea? */
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16:12:00 <esolangs> [[Mach]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160809&oldid=160787 * Kleberlucas * (+1836) Added stack, pointers and IO
16:15:07 <esolangs> [[Mach]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160810&oldid=160809 * Kleberlucas * (+138) Added instructions to delete output
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16:21:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DuongNamVu * New user account
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16:46:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Literally.barbarossa * New user account
17:00:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160811&oldid=160785 * Literally.barbarossa * (+152)
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17:15:14 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160812&oldid=159152 * Literally.barbarossa * (+96) add lua interpreter
17:21:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160813&oldid=158774 * Literally.barbarossa * (+320)
17:28:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Digitpink * New user account
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17:42:36 <esolangs> [[User:Literally.barbarossa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160814 * Literally.barbarossa * (+1011) make userpage
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18:09:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160815&oldid=160811 * Digitpink * (+137)
18:17:57 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160816&oldid=159564 * Aadenboy * (+34) happy birthday to me!
18:37:23 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160817&oldid=160234 * Tommyaweosme * (+131)
18:45:52 <esolangs> [[Exclaim]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160818 * Digitpink * (+3539) Created page with "= Exclaim = '''Exclaim''' is a minimalistic [[esoteric programming language]] created in 2025 by a young enthusiast. It's inspired by [[Chicken]] but focuses on simplicity and memory-based operations using only exclamation marks. It was designed to be easy to learn,
18:52:17 <esolangs> [[Exclaim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160819&oldid=160818 * Digitpink * (+26)
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19:46:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zdxeb * New user account
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19:59:28 <esolangs> [[Labubu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160820 * Digitpink * (+4560) Created page with "{{infobox proglang | name = LABUBU | paradigms = (esoteric, interpreted) | author = User:YourName | year = 2025 | class = (Finite state machine) | majorimpl = JavaScript | influence = Lua | influenced = | image = }} = LABUBU = '''LABUBU
20:00:23 <esolangs> [[Labubu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160821&oldid=160820 * Digitpink * (-17) /* LABUBU */
20:01:52 <esolangs> [[Labubu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160822&oldid=160821 * Digitpink * (-3)
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21:14:09 <esolangs> [[BitChanger Busy beaver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160823&oldid=160804 * C++DSUCKER * (+7)
21:14:38 <esolangs> [[BitChanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160824&oldid=160823 * C++DSUCKER * (-4)
21:32:41 <esolangs> [[Kas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160825 * A() * (+525) Created page with "Lua, but even smaller. Made by [[User:A()]] == Commands == - >> c ; while conditon do - << ; end - r() ; input - w() ; ouput - . ; ends each line - va x = value ; vars - & || ! + - == ; operations - Br() ; break == Programs == === Truth machine === va x = r(). >> x.
21:33:27 <esolangs> [[Kas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160826&oldid=160825 * A() * (+10)
21:36:40 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160827&oldid=160788 * Hotcrystal0 * (+587)
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22:20:19 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160828&oldid=160827 * Hotcrystal0 * (+287)
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00:24:24 <esolangs> [[DPM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160829 * Digitpink * (+2566) Created page with "=DPM= '''DPM (DotPlusMinus)''' is a minimalistic esoteric programming language created by Digitpink. Its primary goal is to offer an interpreter smaller by weight than most [[Brainfuck]] implementations. It uses only three commands<code>+</code>, <code>-</code>, and <co
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04:09:07 <esolangs> [[DPM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160830&oldid=160829 * None1 * (+60) /* See also */
04:18:19 <esolangs> [[Recorder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160831&oldid=131437 * BestCoder * (+9)
04:20:43 <esolangs> [[Zaddy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160832&oldid=160784 * Corbin * (+318) I suppose it's a real proglang now, comparable to Prolog or SQL.
04:32:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160833&oldid=160808 * Pifrited * (+0) /* New esolang idea? */
04:58:00 <esolangs> [[Recorder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160834&oldid=160831 * BestCoder * (+649)
04:59:39 <esolangs> [[Recorder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160835&oldid=160834 * BestCoder * (+14) /* chain use optimization */
05:00:58 <esolangs> [[Recorder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160836&oldid=160835 * BestCoder * (+102) /* chain use optimization */
05:41:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NabbysMark * New user account
05:46:22 <esolangs> [[Simple doctor ai]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160837&oldid=160774 * Hajunsheng * (-1526) Blanked the page
05:46:57 <esolangs> [[TTMSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160838&oldid=160776 * Hajunsheng * (-78)
05:47:30 <esolangs> [[TMSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160839&oldid=160609 * Hajunsheng * (-79)
06:24:00 <esolangs> [[Random-ass Turing Complete Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160840&oldid=125931 * EvyLah * (+0) /* Arithmetic and logic */ fix the order of x<y, x=y, x>y
06:42:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160841&oldid=160833 * I am islptng * (+706) /* New esolang idea? */
06:45:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160842&oldid=160841 * I am islptng * (+133) /* New esolang idea? */
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07:23:51 <esolangs> [[Recorder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160843&oldid=160836 * BestCoder * (+5) /* chain use optimization */
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08:03:32 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160844&oldid=160807 * Pifrited * (-106)
08:09:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160845&oldid=160842 * Pifrited * (+221) /* New esolang idea? */
08:16:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160846&oldid=160845 * Pifrited * (+230) /* New esolang idea? */
08:17:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160847&oldid=160846 * Pifrited * (-3) /* New esolang idea? */
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09:13:14 <esolangs> [[Grass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160848&oldid=160621 * Tpaefawzen * (+138)
09:13:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160849&oldid=160847 * I am islptng * (+1339) /* New esolang idea? */
09:15:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160850&oldid=160849 * I am islptng * (+97) /* New esolang idea? */
09:25:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160851&oldid=160850 * Pifrited * (+348) /* New esolang idea? */
09:29:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160852&oldid=160695 * Digitpink * (+37)
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10:51:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160853&oldid=160851 * I am islptng * (+47) /* New esolang idea? */
10:53:08 <esolangs> [[Trivial Brainfuck Substitution]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160854 * I am islptng * (+44) Redirected page to [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]]
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11:35:49 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh well, I've now officially reached the MAM part of shapez 2 (Alternatively, I could replay at a higher difficulty, maybe even go straight to the hexagon version? But I'll at least prototype a MAM first I think.) I have unlocked the feature that lets me dump freight trains straight into the vortex without unloading them onto belts. No more https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-swirl.jpg
11:40:02 <int-e> Anyway, they do a much better job of giving you things to do than they did in the first game, and allowing you to plan ahead a bit if you want to.
11:49:50 <int-e> (Up to this point. The MAM stage... I think you get two shapes to work on for that, but no actual lookahead.)
11:59:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160855&oldid=160853 * I am islptng * (+48) /* New esolang idea? */
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12:33:11 <wib_jonas> int-e: I would like two shapes in shapez.io 1, so you don't have to wait for the latency of the MAM after you get the signal about the next freeplay shape
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12:36:24 <int-e> Sure I get that. But I suspect the shapes are sampled differently here... like, one looks like a basic shape and the other one uses a new crystal slice type
12:39:06 <wib_jonas> do you have priority splitter/merger that can always sustain belt throughput if possible, or even all the possible 2-2 balancer variants?
12:40:19 <wib_jonas> shapez.io 1 has the priority splitter only, and only in the form of the storage, no convenient priority merger
12:40:55 <wib_jonas> also how many different fixed shapes are you delivering/
12:44:03 <int-e> There is a priority splitter.
12:45:08 <int-e> I haven't used them yet though I have found a potential use case.
12:47:35 <int-e> I can imagine worse advice. Like taking out a kite to collect electricity.
12:49:55 <int-e> the advice was taking an umbrella when going out during a thunderstorm
12:52:11 <int-e> I actually made the mistake of searching for articles about umbrellas acting as lightning rods... it's not the uniformly sound rebuttal that I was hoping for. So many pages citing unnamed experts as saying that you should not carry metal objects during a thunderstorm.
12:52:48 <int-e> . o O ( Just as I thought that my faith in humanity couldn't be any lower too... )
12:52:53 * int-e sighs melodramatically.
12:54:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:GUAqwq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160856&oldid=160547 * GUAqwq * (+96) /* Conditions */
13:50:07 <wib_jonas> int-e: I kind of doubt that an umbrella would matter. It has very little metal, much less than, say, a bicycle. Usually there are buildings or trees around you that attract lightning more, and even without those, the person carrying the umbrella probably matters more than the umbrella itself. https://what-if.xkcd.com/16/ has some description on
13:50:07 <wib_jonas> where lightning strikes, and where you don't want lightning to strike.
13:56:27 <ais523> I imagine an umbrella would make things riskier to some extent, but not by a large factor
13:57:07 <ais523> lightning is most likely to follow a path of low resistance to the ground – an umbrella will create a path of local low resistance, but the resistance of its surroundings will still matter
13:57:40 <ais523> holding an umbrella could be very dangerous if you were in a thunderstorm in an open space with nothing else around, but that situation would be dangerous even without the umbrella
13:58:21 <ais523> (also, when I was being taught about thunderstorm safety, the teaching focused more about not being hit by shrapnel from other things that were hit by lightning, rather than not being hit yourself)
13:59:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160857&oldid=160855 * Hotcrystal0 * (+248) I keep on forgetting to sign
14:00:19 <wib_jonas> I'm trying to find the reference that says there's a lot of things we don't know here, and there's a debate about how lightning rods work in first place, whether they attract lightning or repel it, and whether they help drain the charge from clouds safely so there's less lightning in first place.
14:01:22 <ais523> wib_jonas: the story I heard is that lightning rods were originally designed to repel lightning from the surrounding area, but when they got hit anyway someone realised they could be grounded in order to handle the situation where they got hit anywy
14:01:47 <ais523> and it was unclear from that whether they were redesigned to attract the lightning instead
14:02:26 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160858&oldid=160844 * Pifrited * (+80)
14:03:06 <ais523> Wikipedia doesn't seem to mention anything about this, though, so it may be an urban legend
14:06:07 <ais523> ah, there's a mention of something similar under "Europe"
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14:11:40 <int-e> wib_jonas: Yeah exactly... the effect is minimal. My disappointment is at the Internet ;-)
14:13:21 <wib_jonas> the lightning rod thing doesn't seem to be mentioned on xkcd whatif, or Irregular annotations, or av8n.com , so I'm not sure where I heard it. Maybe in a youtube video, which would be harder to find.
14:15:25 <wib_jonas> I was thinking of https://youtu.be/ywaTX-nLm6Y?t=2048 but I don't think it's relevant
14:16:17 <int-e> LOL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_rod_fashion
14:18:03 <int-e> I don't know what atrocities lie beyond enabled JS for https://teacherscollegesj.org/why-is-it-dangerous-to-carry-an-umbrella-during-a-thunderstorm/ but DDG excerpt says "Is it advised to avoid using umbrellas with metal tips during heavy rainfall and lightning? Answer: Carrying an umbrella during a thunderstorm is not safe. The rod of the umbrella is of metal and the person carrying it will get...
14:18:09 <int-e> ...an electric shock as the current from the rod to the body of person holding it."
14:18:59 <int-e> I may have chosen my search terms a bit poorly: "umbrella lightning rod" (no quotes)... but I was still hoping for rebuttals to outweigh the rest and they don't.
14:19:25 <FireFly> I never thought of umbrellas to be much of a problem with thunder
14:19:28 <int-e> (also this is using DDG which may make a difference)
14:19:49 <int-e> FireFly: Oh! Do they amplify the sound?
14:20:01 <int-e> I mena, they are kind of parabolic
14:21:49 <int-e> (obviously they generally aren't rigid enough; the fabric will just vibrate with the moving air instead of reflecting it. Still, this may be a more interesting angle than the lightning rod one :-)
14:22:14 <int-e> "it" - the sound waves
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14:23:53 <int-e> there are a bunch of semi-correct sources "umbrellas are dangerous if they make you the highest object in the area" -- yeah, maybe, but how much height do you think an umbrella adds ;-)
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14:51:56 <fizzie> I'd guess probably a significant fraction of the standard deviation of human heights, so if you're among a group of people on a flat, featureless plane, the umbrella might well be enough to make you the tallest person around.
14:52:22 <fizzie> Tour guides canonically hold up an umbrella for their group to follow, but that's a bit different.
14:54:31 <FireFly> I'd join that tour of the flat, featureless but populated plane tbh
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15:27:15 <esolangs> [[User:Tpaefawzen/Notes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160859&oldid=160159 * Tpaefawzen * (+1648)
15:29:48 <esolangs> [[User:Tpaefawzen/Notes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160860&oldid=160859 * Tpaefawzen * (+318)
15:44:57 <b_jonas> found it, it's in an xkcd video but it's based on one of the books, not on the online what-if pages. https://youtu.be/fs28lEq9smw?t=130 "The mechanism by which lightning rods work is disputed"
15:45:26 <b_jonas> that was where I heard it, I was looking at almost the right place
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16:45:33 <ais523> <FireFly> I'd join that tour of the flat, featureless but populated plane tbh ← part of the UK is a good approximation to that (it has frequent drainage ditches and the occasional tree, but is otherwise mostly flat and populated)
16:45:42 <ais523> it is surprisingly depressing to drive through
16:47:57 <fizzie> Here's a thing that surprised me about driving in the UK (not that I've done much of it): the amount of single-track roads.
16:48:30 <ais523> they are high in terms of absolute quantity, but not normally chosen for any journey unless you're aiming for somewhere very rural
16:48:45 <ais523> like, farmers need some way to get to and from their farm
16:49:52 <ais523> also they are often reasonable options to walk along, at least compared to the roads that are frequently used by vehicles
16:49:56 <b_jonas> single-track? does that mean you can drive on it with a motorbike, but if you try to follow it by a four-wheeled car then one pair of wheels will be off the road?
16:50:04 <fizzie> Well, we've been off doing touristy stuff in Northumberland, on Isle of Skye, in North Wales.
16:50:13 <fizzie> There's plenty of unpaved country lanes back in rural Finland as well, but they're pretty universally wide enough to (carefully) pass at any point, rather than just at passing places.
16:50:22 <ais523> b_jonas: normally that there isn't room for two normal vehicles to pass each other in opposite directions
16:50:52 <ais523> roads which are too narrow for normal vehicles also exist, but are less common
16:50:55 <fizzie> And I think here a lot of the single-track road are paved; I don't remember any road in Finland with asphalt that would have special passing places.
16:51:23 <ais523> in Scotland, there are even some major classified single-track roads
16:51:50 <ais523> in some places, the terrain just hates you
16:52:51 <ais523> (after decades of it being obviously required, there are still no good roads between Manchester and Sheffield, and in fact two of the main routes between them have been closed due to landslips, one of them permanently, the other for several months)
16:54:49 <fizzie> Heh: UK's and Finland's highest points are almost exactly equally high: Ben Nevis in UK at 1,345 metres; the Halti fell in Finland, at... well, the peak is 1,365 metres but that's on Norway's side; the tallest point on the Finnish side is 1,324 metres.
16:54:58 <ais523> generally speaking, the advice if you have a journey for which one end is north of about Nottingham is to work out which side of the country the northern endpoint is (east or west), and stay on that side at all points north of Nottingham, changing side only south of there
16:56:04 <ais523> if *both* endpoints are north of Nottingham and on opposite sides, things get really awkward, the options are to use one of the few really major east-west roads like the M62 or M8 (and even the M62 ends up getting closed by weather sometimes), attempt one of the minor roads each of which has its own quirks or awkwardnesses, or take a very large detour
16:57:03 <ais523> fortunately I live in the Midlands, so can get to either side fairly easily
16:58:12 <ais523> (although it still takes a lot of planning to get to a point in between, where you have to figure out how to cross the Pennines regardless)
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21:34:17 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160862&oldid=160828 * XP2PHOENIX * (+1864) /* Ideas */
21:40:15 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160863&oldid=160816 * Aadenboy * (+0) july 4!
22:16:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quint-Creator * New user account
22:16:47 <esolangs> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160864&oldid=117319 * Jfb * (+48) /* Semantics */ add another example of how to handle the UB
22:21:52 <esolangs> [[ImTooLazyToMakeAnActuallyGoodEsolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160865&oldid=130861 * Stkptr * (+50)
23:01:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160866&oldid=160815 * Quint-Creator * (+163) /* I come to talk and put my first edit at Esolang:Introduce yourself. 13:30, 14 June 2025 (UTC) */
23:01:40 <esolangs> [[Interlude]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160867&oldid=151786 * Stkptr * (+828)
23:19:24 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160868&oldid=160862 * Hotcrystal0 * (+382)
23:19:40 <int-e> well, this won't be confusing at all I'm sure: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-symmetry-break.jpg
23:21:14 <int-e> (all buildings have flipped versions... so making the decoration completely symmetric is a questionable choice)
23:21:23 <b_jonas> int-e: are those virtual stackers?
23:21:34 <int-e> b_jonas: unstacker and stacker, respectively
23:22:03 <int-e> I don't even know which of those two is the default orientation!
23:23:08 <b_jonas> do you still know which one is the default orientation of oil processing in Factorio? :-p
23:25:18 <int-e> I don't own Factorio.
23:29:19 <int-e> Hmm. It has been reported in one of their feedback venues. https://shapez-2.nolt.io/2814
23:31:46 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160869&oldid=160868 * Hotcrystal0 * (+62)
23:31:49 <int-e> Their options are... Discord, a Google form, this site, and I guess another Google form especially for translation issues. I /guess/ the authors read reddit too.)
23:33:37 <int-e> Oh also https://shapez-2.nolt.io/619 which is in their "planned" list. So there's hope.
23:39:51 <esolangs> [[Quint]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160870 * Quint-Creator * (+2366) Created page with "Hello, I am Quint-Creator, the creator of Quint. <small>who could have guessed</small> <br> <br> Hello! I am proud to present Quint, my minimal esoteric language. Quint is a simple esolang. Before you choose to play around and experiment, it is best to understand t
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12:23:08 <esolangs> [[Astridec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160882&oldid=159745 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0) /* Cat */
12:25:23 <esolangs> [[LogicGate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160883&oldid=155808 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-3) /* Basic gates (gates that doesnt require includes): */
12:32:52 <int-e> b_jonas: a rather curious omission in shapez 2 is that there's no item storage. there's storage for fluids (i.e., colors) though. So... which also means that there's no priority merger at all. It's not sorely needed in this game (there aren't really any consumables nor resource patches that'll run low). A priority merger could still enable initializing a self-sustaining feedback loop though....
12:32:58 <int-e> ...Saving is much more accurate in this game though (I haven't seen lost items yet) so the need for such a mechanism is less desparate.
12:33:33 <b_jonas> int-e: can't you use trains as storage?
12:33:55 <int-e> I can indeed. And the resulting density is extremely poor compared to fluid storage containers.
12:36:54 <int-e> (A train car can hold 18 belt minutes worth of items and takes up a whole space square. A 1x1 platform of fluid holds 252 pipe minutes of contents and you usually need 1/4 to 1/2 pipe of fluid per belt for fluid-related operations.)
14:05:41 <esolangs> [[BFInfinity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160884&oldid=159267 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+9) /* Commands */
14:24:30 <esolangs> [[Empty]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160885&oldid=148378 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-187) /* File extension */ zwnj
14:25:44 <esolangs> [[Empty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160886&oldid=160885 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-21) it can be implemented, it's just really hard
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15:14:06 <int-e> fungot: does one need a king-sized bed to keep the C++ standard under one's pillow? (and yeah I know that the bot's not here)
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16:17:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bebebe * New user account
16:19:46 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160888&oldid=156858 * Corbin * (+19) Cammy is total.
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16:29:28 <esolangs> [[Category:Total]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160889&oldid=121541 * Corbin * (+489) Rewrite the blurb. [[Nope.]] is not self-interpreting; it's uniquely isomorphic to the universal language and so trivializes out.
16:33:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160890&oldid=160866 * Bebebe * (+181)
16:51:12 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160891&oldid=160881 * XP2PHOENIX * (+547)
16:58:04 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160892 * Bebebe * (+336) Created page with "'''This page currently under construction.''' =Symbolmathing= ==description== '''[[Symbolmathing]]''' is esolang by beginner at the esolangs bebebe (Do not take this as real name!! It's a nickname.) bebebe's task was to make esolang for unusual work with mathematic
17:02:07 <esolangs> [[Inigo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160893 * Corbin * (+2124) Stub for one of my darlings.
17:05:45 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160894&oldid=160892 * Bebebe * (+49)
17:10:44 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160895&oldid=160891 * XP2PHOENIX * (+3)
17:11:59 <esolangs> [[Category theory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160896&oldid=139850 * Corbin * (+50) List related languages.
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17:20:40 <esolangs> [[Category theory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160897&oldid=160896 * Corbin * (+671) Clean up a couple of the references.
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18:25:40 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160899&oldid=160894 * Bebebe * (+1946)
18:36:50 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160900&oldid=160899 * Digitpink * (+120) /* Examples */
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18:58:24 <esolangs> [[User:Oryxdotpng]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160902 * Oryxdotpng * (+116) Created page with "Hello. I like esolangs, programming, osdev, webdev, and gamedev. I have no conlangs yet but maybe I will eventually."
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19:51:18 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160903&oldid=160895 * XP2PHOENIX * (+234) /* IoM 3 storyboard WIP */
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21:16:45 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160904&oldid=160903 * Hotcrystal0 * (+122)
21:17:00 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160905&oldid=160904 * Hotcrystal0 * (+247)
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21:27:32 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160906&oldid=160905 * XP2PHOENIX * (+110) /* Ideas */
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21:35:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:XP2PHOENIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160907&oldid=160578 * Hotcrystal0 * (+49) /* Exseq */ new section
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21:40:56 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160908&oldid=160608 * Hotcrystal0 * (+21)
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00:41:07 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160909&oldid=158106 * Cycwin * (+74)
00:45:18 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160910&oldid=160909 * Cycwin * (+131) /* Idea of a highlevel lang what can compile to whatlang a little easily? */
00:52:06 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160911&oldid=160910 * Cycwin * (+122) /* Idea of a highlevel lang what can compile to whatlang a little easily? */
00:57:18 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160912&oldid=160911 * Cycwin * (+123) /* Idea of a highlevel lang what can compile to whatlang a little easily? */
01:02:58 <esolangs> [[Quint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160913&oldid=160870 * Stkptr * (+95)
01:05:04 <esolangs> [[DPM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160914&oldid=160830 * Stkptr * (+79)
01:11:07 <esolangs> [[Obython]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160915&oldid=160091 * BestCoder * (+22)
01:13:32 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160916&oldid=160900 * Stkptr * (+40)
01:14:34 <esolangs> [[Obython]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160917&oldid=160915 * BestCoder * (+32)
01:14:51 <esolangs> [[Obython]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160918&oldid=160917 * BestCoder * (+1) /* Print */
01:15:30 <esolangs> [[Obython]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160919&oldid=160918 * BestCoder * (+9)
01:15:48 <esolangs> [[Obython]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160920&oldid=160919 * BestCoder * (+0)
01:16:16 <esolangs> [[Obython]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160921&oldid=160920 * BestCoder * (-2)
01:16:39 <esolangs> [[Obython]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160922&oldid=160921 * BestCoder * (+0)
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03:07:29 <esolangs> [[Obython]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160923&oldid=160922 * Stkptr * (+47)
04:06:30 <esolangs> [[Dig straight down like an idiot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160924&oldid=151303 * Somebody142857 * (+159)
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06:27:50 <esolangs> [[StormScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160925&oldid=155698 * I am islptng * (-2010) Replaced content with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|StormLang}} {{WIP}} In development."
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09:48:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kq4wlc * New user account
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09:53:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160926&oldid=160901 * Kq4wlc * (+265)
09:56:09 <esolangs> [[User:Kq4wlc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160927 * Kq4wlc * (+202) Created page with "i'm kq4wlc, or icosa, or hedr.n. so uh, yeah. you'll see it at https://vertigolang.space. so, yeah, uh, enjoy. (it's truly garbage, please don't seriously use this unless you are just as insane as I am)"
10:06:16 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160928&oldid=160880 * PrySigneToFry * (+99)
10:06:38 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160929&oldid=160875 * PrySigneToFry * (+11)
10:32:02 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160930&oldid=160887 * Pifrited * (+643) /* Commands */
10:34:09 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160931&oldid=160930 * Pifrited * (-99)
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10:47:53 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160932&oldid=160931 * Pifrited * (+325)
10:49:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160933 * Pifrited * (+182) Help me pleaze
10:52:51 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160934&oldid=160932 * Pifrited * (+162) /* Commands */
10:59:01 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160935&oldid=160934 * Pifrited * (+29) /* Examples */
11:00:34 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160936&oldid=160402 * I am islptng * (+1449)
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11:03:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * I am islptng * uploaded "[[File:StormScriptLogo.png]]": logo for StormScript.
11:04:53 <esolangs> [[File:StormScriptLogo.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160938&oldid=160937 * I am islptng * (+1539)
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11:07:56 <esolangs> [[StormScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160939&oldid=160925 * I am islptng * (+268)
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11:38:35 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160940&oldid=160916 * Bebebe * (+99) /* Examples */
11:39:28 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160941&oldid=160940 * Bebebe * (+4) /* Random number from 1 to 10 */
11:39:48 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160942&oldid=160941 * Bebebe * (-2) /* Random number from 1 to 10 */
11:54:13 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160943&oldid=160942 * Bebebe * (-10) /* Random number from 1 to 10 */
11:59:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160944&oldid=160898 * Bebebe * (+178)
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12:01:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160945&oldid=160944 * Bebebe * (+8)
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12:23:15 <esolangs> [[DragonLang/Document]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160946 * PrySigneToFry * (+4958) Created page with "{{Back|DragonLang}} = Basics = == Data types == === Basic data type === * Numbers, all valid real numbers, with no upper and lower limit and supports 2 to 36 base. * Complexs, formed by a bi. * Documents, simply a string in Python/CangjieLang, except
12:25:04 <esolangs> [[DragonLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160947&oldid=160223 * PrySigneToFry * (+21)
12:45:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:DragonLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160948 * Cycwin * (+68) Created page with "And let you feel so hard to write an interpreter(w --[[User:Cycwin]]"
12:47:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Creepy * New user account
12:54:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160949&oldid=160763 * Cycwin * (+236) /* Any interests on joining our Esolang Tencent QQ group? */
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14:39:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:XP2PHOENIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160950&oldid=160907 * XP2PHOENIX * (+121) /* Exseq */
14:40:05 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160951&oldid=160906 * XP2PHOENIX * (+30) /* IoM 3 storyboard WIP */
14:54:05 <esolangs> [[User:Bebebe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160952 * Bebebe * (+1) Created page with "H"
14:54:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * I am islptng * uploaded a new version of "[[File:StormScriptLogo.png]]": remove crispEdges
14:54:51 <esolangs> [[File:StormScriptLogo.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160954&oldid=160953 * I am islptng * (-5)
14:59:34 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160955&oldid=160943 * Bebebe * (+24) /* Python Interpreter */
14:59:37 <esolangs> [[StormScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160956&oldid=160939 * I am islptng * (+68) categorize
15:00:22 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160957&oldid=160955 * Bebebe * (+41) /* JS interpreter */
15:01:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:DragonLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160958&oldid=160948 * I am islptng * (+701)
15:22:10 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=160959 * Aadenboy * (+4734) Created page with "<includeonly>style="font-family: ui-monospace,SFMono-Regular,SF Mono,Menlo,Consolas,Liberation Mono,monospace;{{#if:{{{1|}}}|background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #000; border: 1px solid #eaecf0; padding: 1em; white-space: pre; overflow-x: hidden; word-wrap: break-word; o
15:23:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160960&oldid=160852 * Aadenboy * (+15) /* T */ add [[thisthat]]
15:24:00 <esolangs> [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160961&oldid=96898 * Aadenboy * (+35) distinguish
15:24:17 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160962&oldid=160959 * Aadenboy * (+34) distinguish
15:24:26 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160963&oldid=160962 * Aadenboy * (+2)
15:27:37 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160964&oldid=160863 * Aadenboy * (+394) add [[thisthat]]
15:50:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Bebebe * uploaded "[[File:Symbolmathing.png]]": vertical mirrored +^+ in circle is a Symbolmathing logo
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16:14:49 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160966&oldid=160957 * Bebebe * (+222)
16:18:12 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160967&oldid=160966 * Bebebe * (+41)
16:20:18 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160968&oldid=160967 * Bebebe * (+5) /* Logo */
16:21:04 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160969&oldid=160968 * Bebebe * (+4) /* Logo */
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16:52:55 <esolangs> [[User:RetroPain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160970&oldid=155598 * RetroPain * (-46)
16:54:07 <esolangs> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160971&oldid=120458 * RetroPain * (+69)
17:16:18 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160972&oldid=160969 * Bebebe * (+140) /* Logo */
17:19:21 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160973&oldid=160972 * Bebebe * (+15)
17:48:26 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160974&oldid=160973 * Bebebe * (+62) /* Links */
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19:05:37 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160975&oldid=160974 * Bebebe * (+1440)
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19:21:30 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160976&oldid=160963 * Aadenboy * (+311) /* Nodes */
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19:30:42 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160977&oldid=160976 * Aadenboy * (+177) /* Nodes */
19:33:17 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:33:20 <lambdabot> list [module|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command].
19:33:24 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
19:33:26 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
19:33:26 <lambdabot> seen slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
19:33:41 <lambdabot> hoogle <expr>. Haskell API Search for either names, or types.
19:33:46 <lambdabot> Control.Comonad class Functor w => Comonad w
19:34:34 <ais523> @src Control.Comonad.Comonad
19:35:16 <int-e> Comonad is way too modern for this.
19:35:16 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160978&oldid=160977 * Aadenboy * (+137)
19:35:27 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160979&oldid=160978 * Aadenboy * (-6) /* Nodes */
19:36:09 <int-e> (@src uses a text file that comes with lambdabot. It's a rather weird mix of standard Prelude and random stuff that people added.)
19:36:12 <lambdabot> Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it.
19:36:18 <lambdabot> Source not found. You speak an infinite deal of nothing.
19:36:31 <int-e> eh, I thought that was in there, maybe I misremember
19:37:29 <int-e> :t Control.Comonad.extract
19:37:30 <lambdabot> Control.Comonad.Comonad w => w a -> a
19:37:34 <int-e> :t Control.Comonad.duplicate
19:37:35 <lambdabot> Control.Comonad.Comonad w => w a -> w (w a)
19:39:49 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160980&oldid=160979 * Aadenboy * (-96) /* Nodes */
19:40:00 <ais523> OK, this isn't what I want either
19:40:38 <ais523> a functor F lets me take a function from a to b, and convert it into a function from F a to F b
19:41:01 <ais523> and I'm trying to find the opposite in the following sense: if you have a function from F a to F b, you can convert that into a function from a to b
19:42:39 <int-e> mmm that's a weird one
19:43:21 <int-e> well, assuming you still want to preserve composition
19:43:51 <ais523> this might be a dead end
19:44:42 <ais523> (this is yet another case of "things that frustratingly resemble monads but don't seem to actually be monads")
19:46:16 <ais523> the context is that I'm considering a programming language in which some types are supposed to not be copied, but you can illegally copy them anyway, and if you do, some operations don't work correctly on the illegally copied values
19:47:07 <ais523> but many of the operations do, and this commutes in the sense that f(illegal copy of X) = illegal copy of f(X), assuming that f doesn't try to do anything that doesn't work on illegal copies
19:47:51 <ais523> so it's a bit like a functor except you can do fewer things inside it, rather than more
19:49:45 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160981&oldid=160980 * Aadenboy * (+961) /* Examples */ secured examples and a [[BCT]] implementation
19:50:34 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160982&oldid=160964 * Aadenboy * (+602) /* ESOLANGS */
19:54:45 <ais523> actually, linear logic probably has an operation for this somewhere, it has lots of operations like that
20:02:01 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160983&oldid=160975 * Bebebe * (+131)
20:03:24 <korvo> There is a concept of inverse functor, but it trivializes to the equivalent concept in set theory: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/inverse+functor
20:10:15 <ais523> and an inverse functor is still a functor, whereas the thing I'm dealing with isn't a functor
20:18:50 <zzo38> Do you have a example of what types are supposed to not be copied?
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20:35:14 <ais523> zzo38: assumptions that you have exclusive access to a particular resource (if you copy the assumption, it becomes risky to rely on because someone else might be relying on the copy)
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20:49:46 <b_jonas> I was wondering about something that is sort of esoteric. I'll start with the use case: you are running a service on the internet that's used by lots of third parties, and can store potentially sensitive data about those third parties. Your goal is to protect the third party data from government subponea as much as possible. More precisely, if the government decides that they're interested in the data
20:49:52 <b_jonas> that you're storing, and demand that you give them all your data, you can give them as little as possible. This can happen only once, assume you shut down the service immediately when the government sends you the first request, but you aren't allowed to delete or modify any data at that time.
20:50:31 <b_jonas> The easy parts of this is to not store any data that needn't be stored, and to overwrite any data on the disk as soon as it's no longer needed. This part isn't hard, you can just use ordinary database software.
20:51:51 <b_jonas> But the problem is that even if you do the easy part carefully, the database can contain a little bit of information about the history of database updates, leaked in what order the data is allocated and possibly the structure of the tree or linked lists or hash tables etc.
20:54:02 <b_jonas> Now I think in theory it's possible to make a database software that specifically avoids all those leaks. That is, the data stored on disk contains only exponentially small amount of extra information about the history of the database (over the information that the current rows tell), at least as much as you can extract with feasable computation in the cryptographical sense. And you can do that while
20:54:03 <ais523> avoiding that seems difficult because there are lots of desirable properties of databases (e.g. working in concurrent scenarios) that may be hard or impossible to implement with a truly normalized storage format
20:54:08 <b_jonas> still keeping the storage space and the time of updates and lookups having reasonable bounds.
20:54:32 <b_jonas> But it's quite hard to optimize this to make the storage space and runtime small in practice, not just like have nice asymptotics.
20:55:15 <b_jonas> I'm assuming no concurrence here for simplicity.
20:55:29 <ais523> oh, that makes a big difference
20:55:39 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160984&oldid=160983 * Bebebe * (+53)
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20:57:05 <ais523> so hash tables almost get this right – if there are no collisions and the hash table is fairly full, you can just store everything at a known address based no its hash
20:57:12 <b_jonas> For the allocations, if you use fixed-sized blocks then you can keep them in a uniform random order: if you want to allocate a block then you append the block then swap it with a random block in the database (but you have to make sure to update all the pointers, which may require a bit more complicated code). If you want different block sizes you probably need multiple levels of this, to allocate small
20:57:17 <ais523> but "there are no collisions and the hash table is fairly full" is a probabilistic contradiction
20:57:55 <ais523> different block sizes shouldn't be a problem, just put them on different storage devices
20:58:33 <b_jonas> For the key-value lookup or ordered storage, there are hash-table based solutions which are probably better in practice. But I personally prefer a treap: if you choose a random weight for every node when it's created, and build a treap from them, then the shape of the tree and location of nodes is independent of the history.
20:59:10 <ais523> well, as long as the weights aren't tied
20:59:13 <b_jonas> "just put them on different storage devices" => yes, that works as long as you can predict how much space you want to allocate
20:59:21 <ais523> I guess you can reroll a weight if it's tied
20:59:44 <ais523> or, no, that introduces bias?
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21:00:12 <ais523> or, I'm not sure – currently leaning towards thinking it doesn't but am not convinced
21:00:50 <b_jonas> the simplest solution would be to use weights that are so large that they can't be tied (256 or 192 bits). I think if you use a biased distribution that makes weights farther from the roots exponentially more likely then you can get away with fewer bits, but I'm not certain.
21:01:37 <b_jonas> you don't need to explicitly store the whole weight, because you can generate the weights deterministically from the key of the data using a cryptographic checksum
21:01:55 <ais523> oh! so what you can do is to use a hash table, and use a treap for collisions
21:02:13 <b_jonas> so I'd recommend a 256-bit weight, but store some of it for speed
21:02:53 <ais523> like, if two or more entries collide, the hash table entry stores a treap that stores all the entries
21:03:17 <b_jonas> as in a 256-bit weight generated from the primary key using a cryptographic digest, and store a (nonlinear) 32 bits of it on disk for efficiency
21:04:18 <b_jonas> ais523: that kind of seems overcomplicated, you could just store the colliding elements in a linked list as long as you keep their orders either random or sorted by a weight. if the hash function is good and the hash table isn't too large then there won't be large sets of collisions.
21:04:30 <ais523> randomizing linked lists is awkward
21:04:57 <b_jonas> ais523: no, you can insert into a random position whenever you insert, and keep the order when you delete
21:05:04 <ais523> in any case, I think there's some sort of hashdos-like attack available where someone forces worst-case performance by submitting lots of entries whose hashes sort the same way their values do
21:05:35 <ais523> you'd have to use a randomized hashing function to avoid that
21:05:36 <b_jonas> (of course since this is user-supplied data, you have to use a cryptographic digest with a secret seed for the hash function to ensure that the users cannot manipulate collisions)
21:05:45 <b_jonas> (but that's already true for a normal database that uses a hash table)
21:06:41 <b_jonas> yes, I think ordinary real-world databases that use hash tables already solved that problem, it's not directly related to this history-hiding
21:09:09 <b_jonas> It's just that you have to make sure to store the nodes of linked lists or trees in a way that also doesn't leak history. And the same for any variable-sized data in the rows. So for this you need something like the random allocations, even if the hash table itself is in a fixed position.
21:09:49 <b_jonas> And I wouldn't recommend this for most databases because it comes with an overhead in storage size or update time.
21:10:10 <b_jonas> So this would just be some special-purpose type of database, not your default database.
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08:57:36 <ais523> I figured my problem out – I think the thing I have is the ? exponential from linear logic
08:57:48 <ais523> which, if true, would be somewhat major news as I've never seen that thing in a programming language type system before
08:59:14 <ais523> I spent a couple of hours last night just trying to figure out what it even means in a programming language context
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09:28:52 <wib_jonas> ais523: is this related to replacing rust references with something very similar but not quite the same?
09:29:41 <ais523> although it's actually true even for regular Rust references: I think a shared reference is, precisely, a ? of a mutable reference
09:32:23 <ais523> there's a pattern in Rust where basically every function has to be written twice, once with shared references, once with mutable references
09:32:41 <ais523> and I was trying to a) understand why and b) trying to describe the pattern mathematically so that it could be automated
09:32:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=160998&oldid=160926 * Creepy * (+21)
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09:36:45 <wib_jonas> "basically every function has to be written twice" => is this like those C++ functions that index into a collection or dereference an iterator, and can take either a C++ reference or C++ const reference to the collection or iterator and have to return a C++ reference or C++ const reference as the result? \
09:37:45 <ais523> if the only thing you do on a reference is place-project it (which is what those iterators are doing), it's always the case that you get a const and a non-const version with identical code
09:37:46 <wib_jonas> yeah, I've seen a few of those in rust, some functions are even written three times. it didn't bother me too much because it only comes up if you're writing a very generic library with lots of possible use cases.
09:39:17 <esolangs> [[!Frontal Lobe Lobotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161000&oldid=160999 * Creepy * (+246)
09:40:35 <esolangs> [[!Frontal Lobe Lobotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161001&oldid=161000 * Creepy * (+10) /* Download Tooling */
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09:43:12 <ais523> oh, I see, they started the page name with a ! to make it sort near the start of the list
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09:45:28 <wib_jonas> there are other cases when rust has a stronger type system with more distinctions than many other languages, and because of this library data types often need extra functions to convert from one type to another. like there's a impl<T, A> Box<[MaybeUninit<T>], A> { unsafe fn assume_init(self) -> Box<[T], A>; } function that compiles to an identity
09:46:36 <esolangs> [[!Frontal Lobe Lobotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161005&oldid=161004 * Creepy * (+6)
09:53:01 <ais523> wib_jonas: yes – in fact recently I've been writing an entire library of things that compile to the identity function
09:53:34 <ais523> at that point they are basically proofs rather than progrms
09:57:58 <wib_jonas> this one isn't a proof because it's unsafe, but there are safe functions like this too, such as impl<T> Cell<[T]> { fn as_slice_of_cells(&self) -> &[Cell<T>]; }
09:59:58 <wib_jonas> though the former one is sort of a proof in the sense that it guarantees an invariant about the representation of Box that an unconventional implementation could technically break, eg. one that may uses a different allocator for the argument and the resturn
10:00:19 <wib_jonas> I mean invokes the allocator with a different layout
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10:03:18 <wib_jonas> eg. you could have a Box implementation that allocates a Box<[T]> into an arena that's usually read-only and made read-write for a short time during the allocation (on cpus that support this) but allocates Box<[MaybeUninit<T>]> into a read-write arena, and the former stores the allocation metadata outside the arena while the latter stores it in
10:03:55 <wib_jonas> it's not something that you're likely to do, but without this function in the library the user wouldn't know that this isn't the case
10:04:11 <esolangs> [[User:Creepy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161006 * Creepy * (+12) Created page with "hi im creepy"
10:05:32 <wib_jonas> admittedly this might not be possible in rust because it would require impl specialization that can detect non-membership in a trait
10:14:34 <ais523> wib_jonas: the representation invariant is actually useful, e.g. Option<T> can have a different representation from Option<MaybeUninit<T>> sometimes, so you need a guarantee that Box doesn't do that
10:18:11 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161007&oldid=161003 * Bebebe * (+1815) /* Interpreter */
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10:25:21 <wib_jonas> by the way I wonder if rust could add built-in types that contain an integer but the range is restricted at compile time, eg. to a union of some intervals. std::num::NonzeroU32 would be a special case of this. and I think it shouldn't be hard to implement this in the compiler because user-defined unit-only enums can do most of what this does. you'd
10:25:21 <wib_jonas> just have to support a range of more values than you could reasonably list in an enum declaration, plus checked and unchecked conversions from the underlying integer type.
10:26:54 <wib_jonas> you could implement this as a user as a wrapper over the base integer type, but a built-in would allow optimizations eg. inside Option or other enums.
10:27:31 <ais523> wib_jonas: https://gist.github.com/joboet/0cecbce925ee2ad1ee3e5520cec81e30
10:28:45 <ais523> apparently hasn't been officially proposed, so it took me a bit longer to find than usual
10:28:51 <ais523> but it's a fairly well-known pre-proposal
10:30:08 <wib_jonas> that one does rather more than what I'm asking for though
10:31:48 <wib_jonas> and I think it's harder to implement
10:32:46 <ais523> I think so – but I think the same sorts of type-system-related problems happen with any refinement type, and also suspect they will need the most implementation effort
10:32:55 <ais523> so doing the rest of pattern types probably isn't too hard once you have integer ranges
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10:36:03 <wib_jonas> it's not really the non-integer part that I'm worried there, but that one seems to allow you to implicitly convert a more restricted type to a less restricted one, and more type magic. what I'm proposing would make this an explicit wrapper with conversion functions, except the `as` operator would be used for conversion from restricted to base
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10:37:17 <esolangs> [[Symbolmathing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161009&oldid=161008 * Bebebe * (+2478)
10:38:34 <ais523> wib_jonas: the gist has some explanation as to why the conversion is implicit – the basic issue is that an explicit coercion would need to be guarded by a match, but if you have matches perform the coercion automatically and you don't have subtyping then you break all the existing match statements
10:38:52 <ais523> so you'd need to do something like having an attribute on match arms that gets them to refine the type
10:39:35 <wib_jonas> yes, and that could be a useful extension, but I think it's harder to implement it in the specification and compiler
10:43:07 <wib_jonas> at least we have unions now so I can use a struct(i32,union) to represent an enum with extra data in its discriminant, I just can't prove it typesafe
10:45:29 <wib_jonas> I think there was a proposal for C-like bitfields for rust that could handle some of the use cases in a typesafe way, but I don't think it's in the language.
10:50:11 <wib_jonas> it's kind of hard because you have to pack values into the discriminant in a way that you can't make references to them, but rust already has packed structs that do something like that
10:56:19 <ais523> wib_jonas: so I've been thinking about this (I've been thinking about just about everything reference-related)
10:57:35 <ais523> you can make shared references work by having the reference fix the padding/unused bits as it reads (although in that case you can't convert the reference to a memory address because a pointer wouldn't act the same way)
10:58:30 <ais523> and for mutable references, you can mutate the value to fix the padding/unused bits as the reference is formed, then mutate it back when the reference is dropped (although this requires mutable references to have destructors and for the destructors to be guaranteed to run before the lifetime of the mutable reference ends)
10:58:58 <ais523> both of these won't work in current Rust for obvious reasons, but they feel like things that a "fixed" version of Rust would allow
11:07:48 <wib_jonas> but the reference wouldn't be of an ordinary reference type, right?
11:08:12 <wib_jonas> I think rust currently doesn't let you pack three bools into a one-byte struct
11:08:38 <wib_jonas> that's one of those cases that should be possible, you just can't borrow the fields as an ordinary &bool, but you can still read or write them by value
11:09:51 <wib_jonas> "you can mutate the value to fix the padding/unused bits as the reference is formed, then mutate it back when the reference is dropped" hehe, that could work. The shared reference would have to point to a temporary.
11:10:32 <wib_jonas> and I think even that wouldn't work if you like want to shared borrow both the whole structure and the fields
11:10:56 <wib_jonas> but I don't really mind this, these are packed structs and small integer fields, I'm fine with them not being borrowable individually
11:17:44 <ais523> <wib_jonas> but the reference wouldn't be of an ordinary reference type, right? ← so Rust is missing a type that acts like a shared reference, but stores a bitwise copy of the referenced memory rather than the address
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11:19:18 <wib_jonas> they didn't manage to add the const-reference-or-value type into C++ yet either
11:19:36 <ais523> I've recently (as in, today) come to the conclusion that Rust should support a type whose representation is "a copy of the referenced object" and whose semantics are "a shared reference except you can't get the address or write cells" and implement shared references as the new type applied to a mutable reference
11:20:02 <ais523> and by "a copy of the referenced object" I mean a bitwise copy, not a type-level copy
11:20:24 <wib_jonas> isn't that what you wanted to write an essay about already?
11:20:38 <ais523> or, well, I want to write several essays and the boundaries between them keep changing
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11:21:10 <ais523> I've complained for a long time that being able to get the address from a shared reference is wrong
11:21:28 <ais523> but, I've only recently realised just *how* wrong iti s
11:22:00 <wib_jonas> would the mut reference types remain unchanged?
11:22:16 <ais523> the mutable reference types are wrong in a number of ways, but fixing them would break too much code
11:22:25 <ais523> too much existing code, that is
11:22:32 <ais523> so I think they have to be kept around
11:22:48 <ais523> (interestingly, most of the ways in which they're bad don't matter if you treat them as shared references)
11:25:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161011&oldid=160996 * Cycwin * (+32) /* Any interests on joining our Esolang Tencent QQ group? */
11:29:48 <ais523> I think the correct way to define a mutable reference type has really different semantics, and &mut is best as syntax sugar / as an efficient way to handle the common case
11:29:52 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161012&oldid=160990 * Pifrited * (+344)
11:30:26 <int-e> ais523: "address from a reference", you mean (...: &T) as *T?
11:30:29 <ais523> (in particular, I think the reference should "own the value it points to" in the sense that dropping the reference leaves you with an unusable value rather than a readable one)
11:31:51 <int-e> Well the attitude there is that addresses are just bit patterns and uses are unsafe, as far as the Rust compiler is concerned. There's the whole Miri business with an actual memory model that I haven't really looked at though.
11:32:19 <ais523> int-e: yes, but it makes guarantees about things you can do soundly with the resulting references, using unsafe code
11:32:23 <ais523> err, the resulting pointesr
11:36:29 <wib_jonas> int-e: the raw pointer rules have been documented recently, and described in https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/std/ptr/index.html#provenance . they also added a few extra functions to handle advanced raw pointer tricks in a way that's neither UB nor prohibits too many optimizations.
11:37:53 <int-e> 'the reference should "own the value it points to"' -- an important use case relies on this not being the case: invoking several fn foo(&mut self) methods in a row
11:37:55 <wib_jonas> these new rules are relevant mostly when you turn a pointer into an integer but later want to turn it back to a pointer.
11:38:53 <int-e> "maybe you want to be able to express fn foo(self), but pass it as a reference because the object is big"?
11:38:59 <ais523> int-e: you need syntax sugar to make that work
11:39:01 <int-e> misplaced the first quite
11:39:09 <wib_jonas> one of the changes that are likely to come up in your code is that if you want an atomic field that stores either a pointer or an integer then you must use AtomicPtr instead of AtomicUsize
11:39:09 <ais523> if references own the value
11:39:14 <ais523> and a few other things too
11:39:25 <int-e> but I don't see how this raises to the level of Rust being *wrong*...
11:40:23 <int-e> wib_jonas: thanks, I felt that I had seen this but forgot the "provenance" keyword so I would never have found it again
11:40:57 <ais523> int-e: although I realised this a while back, I have spent ages thinking about how to argue it convincingly
11:41:42 <wib_jonas> this may be relevant to ais523 because he's the most likely to use atomics this way
11:42:14 <ais523> wib_jonas: I know it already
11:42:23 <ais523> but yes, I was attempting to write that code a while ago
11:42:52 <ais523> that said, strict provenance doesn't work well in code that is operating on smaller-than-pointer-sized references
11:42:57 <int-e> wib_jonas: I don't have full context as usual. You guys are writing a novel.
11:43:13 <ais523> it'd be fine if I could extract the provenances into ZSTs and store them there, but Rust doesn't let you do that, they have to be stored in pointers
11:43:47 <wib_jonas> this makes it hard to use the two pointer sized atomic compare-and-modify of x86, but rust doesn't have a type for that yet
11:44:23 <ais523> I used that as an example of why you might want to use #[repr(align)], when writing a Stack Overflow answer
11:44:51 <ais523> it's a bit of a weird omission because lots of atomic algorithms need to atomically operate on a pointer + a counter
12:02:29 <int-e> ais523: Is this a fair first approximation of what you want? I think you want to separate tracking ownership from addresses (in the form of references) so that you can apply ownership at a finer than byte sized granularity, and also confer ownership through types that don't necessarily contain references?
12:02:45 <ais523> int-e: yes, I think that's a good approximation
12:04:15 <ais523> a mutable reference is effectively a) a guarantee that the referenced data has a particular type, b) an address, c) provenance on the address, d) a way to mutate the data, e) a guarantee of exclusive access to the data, f) a promise to ensure that the referenced data will always have the correct type even if the mutable reference gets unexpectedly dropped
12:04:30 <ais523> and I know for certain that I want to split some of those up, but am not yet sure what the correct split is
12:08:08 <int-e> Nod nod nod... wait, f)?
12:08:37 <ais523> yep – a mutable reference doesn't let you leave the data targeted by the reference in an invalid state, even temporarily
12:08:38 <int-e> (I mean, once all references are dropped the data can be moved or dropped)
12:09:06 <ais523> this is most noticeable in the implementation of drop(), which requires that you leave the thing you're dropping in a valid state, so you can't, e.g., move out of the fields without moving a valid placeholder value in to replace it
12:09:09 <int-e> oh, "always" is short-term intermediate states, not distant future
12:09:39 <int-e> that makes sense then
12:10:20 <ais523> I think the "correct" signature for drop eventually got figured out by the Rust community: it should a) take the value being dropped by value, and b) support a "deconstruction" operation that splits the object into its individual fields, together with a requirement to use it rather than dropping the object normally (which would cause drop to run recursively)
12:11:02 <ais523> deconstruction is not currently supported by Rust for things with destructors, but several people (including me and at least one of the Rust developers) think it should be
12:12:45 <ais523> one nice consequence of that implementation is that dropping becomes a mirror of construction: a constructor does { …; rv = Self { field1, field2, … }; … ; rv } and a destructor is the opposite, |arg| { …; Self { field1, field2, … } = arg; … }
12:14:42 <ais523> there are a few ways to make this sort of thing backwards-compatible, too (although all of them that I'm aware of are a little hacky)
12:16:54 <int-e> Okay, I'll agree that Rust is lacking there. But it might be hard to come up with something that's more expressive, but doesn't require an inordinate amount of boilerplate and/or type annotations. (As an analogy I have this complaint about dependent types... HM types hit a sweet spot where type inference works really well, and you also don't end up with dozens of differently annotated versions...
12:17:00 <int-e> ...of the same type, because such annotations largely don't exist. Now I'm also a fan of some extensions like higher rank types and, ironically, GADTs... but the trick with those is to use them sparingly.)
12:17:16 <lambdabot> int-e says: I want dependable types.
12:19:59 <int-e> There's momentum too; treating references as addresses is a well-trodden path.
12:20:54 <ais523> I think most recently I've been thinking about addresses as something that some types of reference are able to provide, but aren't inherent in the idea of a reference – the ability to provide an address is sort-of like an extra trait that a reference could choose to provide
12:21:22 <ais523> that said, they do seem at least somewhat inherent to references that you can write through, so that you can reason about whether two references are writing the same memory or not
12:22:27 <ais523> but that might not necessarily be the case: you can imagine a "buffered mutable reference" which stores the values being written elsewhere, and only updates the original memory on drop
12:25:19 <int-e> Right that works if you don't have weird things like atomics... well maybe you'd have to completely rethink the "a shared reference conveys mutable access" story for those.
12:25:50 <ais523> the whole linear-logic-? thing that I posted this morning seems to allow for that case
12:26:14 <int-e> (you can't buffer atomics)
12:26:36 <ais523> oh, you can if you have an *exclusive* reference to them
12:26:44 <ais523> it's just shared references that struggle
12:27:07 <ais523> a ?T is like a T except that anything that consumes it has to be prepared to potentially be run as multiple copies, maybe in parallel, while it's consuming the T – in particular this means that it can't while consuming it make use of anything that isn't `Copy`
12:27:22 <int-e> These comments are based on the current treatment of atomics in Rust, with shared references.
12:27:46 <ais523> right, but the "buffered mutable reference" was based specifically on mutable references, so it doesn't interact with atomics
12:28:23 <ais523> anyway, I realised a while back that the current Rust *semantics* of UnsafeCell are that references that point to the outside of the UnsafeCell don't have provenance over the inside
12:28:41 <ais523> not only does the whole API match that, the type-system-level behaviour seems to too
12:29:35 <ais523> you could replace an UnsafeCell<T> with a Box<UnsafeCell<T>> (assuming the box is appropriately-sized), with mutations happening inside the box, and nothing would semantically change
12:35:42 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161013&oldid=160817 * Tommyaweosme * (+333)
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12:48:18 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161014&oldid=158199 * Ais523 * (+16) /* T */ +[[Turn Left]]: it has an interpreter now
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13:43:18 <wib_jonas> ais523: but what happens when the type that the reference points to has interior mutability like an UnsafeCell field? you can't use a bitwise copy for that instead of the original one.
13:48:07 <int-e> But conceptually, given a mutable reference, you can move the value out, modify it, and move it back in. Unless the object is pinned.
13:49:07 <int-e> Operationally that move can be done by making a copy and relying on the fact that nobody can touch the original.
13:49:41 <int-e> The thing that you break is that the mutable reference stops pointing to a valid object (it becomes stale) while you're working with the copy.
13:50:34 <int-e> ("thing" - a guarantee that Rust currently has. Well, I'm taking ais523's word for that.)
13:58:48 <int-e> wib_jonas: totally unrelated, I've started actually toying with the wire things in shapez 2 and there's a huge change in how signals are propagated. It's no longer feeding the old wire states into the components and combining the outputs on the connected wires each tick; signals propagate much further in a single tick. Which breaks my shapez 1 edge triggers. OTOH a not gate feeding into itself...
13:58:54 <int-e> ...will still flicker, so maybe signal propagation stops when it comes a full circle. Details are unclear to me. Maybe every logic gate is updated at most once per tick?
14:00:51 <wib_jonas> int-e: I was thinking of such a system for a hypothetical game, but in a way that explicitly allows you to introduce delays
14:01:00 <int-e> On the plus side, my not+transistor+or RS-flip-flop still works. Which coupled with a clock should be enough to bootstrap clocked circuits.
14:01:40 <int-e> yeah a D flip-flop would be helpful
14:01:42 <wib_jonas> is there no explicit memory cell or delay or similar object?
14:02:31 <int-e> I have all the research. The only explicit delay I've found is the global communication, which has a half second delay or so.
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14:03:53 <int-e> Anyway. It's a change. There's an up-side to it too, obviously; deeper circuits are no longer slow.
14:04:15 <int-e> I'll keep experimenting.
14:04:56 <int-e> a transistor feeding into itself will still keep a value alive at least.
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14:05:44 <wib_jonas> do transistors consistently add a delay, eg. for just the control input?
14:05:58 <ais523> <wib_jonas> ais523: but what happens when the type that the reference points to has interior mutability like an UnsafeCell field? you can't use a bitwise copy for that instead of the original one. ← indeed, writing to a cell needs the address
14:06:16 <int-e> (tried that. that was my (and I suppose everybody else's) default delay in shapez 1 after all)
14:06:30 <ais523> it conceptually works because the data inside the cell isn't part of the copy – it's referenced by the copy – but doesn't physically work because the computer doesn't know where the cell actually is
14:06:38 <wib_jonas> ais523: reading from the cell needs the address too, if you don't exclusively own the cell
14:18:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161018&oldid=161002 * PrySigneToFry * (+26)
14:41:49 <int-e> wib_jonas: Oh no! The order in which you place the gates matters now. And pasting blueprints doesn't preserve it.
14:43:23 <int-e> though you can tweak the order in which buildings are in the blueprint by changing its orientation when you create the blueprint
14:43:32 <int-e> this might not be fun.
14:44:37 <wib_jonas> in games like this you often can't really make the rules symmetric to all the reasonable symmetries in all cases
14:45:01 <int-e> right but shapez 1 was an exception as far as the wire layer was concerned
14:45:21 <wib_jonas> but ideally you want to make it not matter too much for the player, at least if the player keeps certain rules that don't restrict them too much
14:46:25 <int-e> huh I wonder whether loading and saving breaks this too then
14:54:54 <int-e> well saving and loading certainly changes something
14:58:39 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-wire-trouble.jpg -- this is after saving and loading; the left variant started out as a copy of the right one. 5 work fine (one can store a provided value in the single transistor loop) but for the other three it doesn't work.
14:59:27 <ais523> I tried the shapez 1 demo but didn't enjoy it
14:59:48 <ais523> in general, that sort of game seems like it would be more interesting if you do the computation with the same pieces that you make the shapes out of, rather than having an entire separate system
15:00:38 <int-e> I think what changes is the order in which the not gate and the two transistors are evaluated, and I currently conjecture that the update process starts with a changed signal and propagates changes from there, but only ever updating any gate once.
15:01:54 <int-e> Not because I can confirm it experimentally but because it's a plausible implementation. I could maybe check whether DAGs update consistently in a single cycle.
15:05:11 <wib_jonas> ais523: in the demo, did you reach the two puzzles, which is how to make the last two upgrade shapes? because that's I think one of the interesting parts of this game.
15:05:12 <int-e> ais523: Eh it's not primarly a model of computation. It's support for automation, with the specific goal that the game can request a shape and there's enough logic to disect it and guide production accordingly.
15:06:03 <int-e> (Does the demo even have the wire layer? I forgot.)
15:09:09 <wib_jonas> int-e: the new version of the demo definitely doesn't; I think the old version doesn't either but I don't remember for sure how far it goes
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15:12:02 <int-e> I really don't think of shapez (1 or 2) as a programming game. Obviously there are aspects to it that appeal to programmers... making modular reusable designs, mostly. And there's a strong golfing component to it too if you're so inclined. But then it's a sequence of puzzles, figuring out recipes to make certain shapes. And finally using the wire layer for automation, and then the only thing...
15:12:08 <int-e> ...that's left is either tinkering with those things endlessly or making up your own tasks in a sandbox.
15:18:48 <int-e> ais523: also maybe I misunderstood... the wire layer absolutely can simulate the production part; it's not just 0s and 1s, wires can carry (virtual) shapes.
15:19:49 <int-e> I'm just not playing with that right now because I'm more worried about state management / control flow.
15:22:22 <int-e> And sure, you could restrict the wires to only have shapes, but you'd probably not change it significantly; you'd want to encode a conditional somewhere, and in a non-esoteric fashion because making it complicated would reduce your audience to a dozen people who enjoy this kind of thing and play the game. :P
15:23:45 <int-e> (I've seen people struggle with the wire layer as it is, with its very mundane logic signaling part.)
15:24:02 <int-e> Anyway. You dislike it and that's okay :-P
15:25:59 <ais523> int-e: I was thinking more of using the production part to simulate the wire layer
15:26:20 <ais523> like, having machines that turn on and off based on whether you paint them red or blue, that sort of thing
15:27:04 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161019&oldid=160982 * Aadenboy * (+19) /* VSCode Box Drawing */ I got a review!
15:28:28 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161020&oldid=161014 * PkmnQ * (+60) Add a few queue-based languages (may add more later)
15:28:52 <int-e> ais523: yeah that would be a completely different type of game
15:30:18 <ais523> it seems so superflous to have two different types of thing (wire signals and manufacturing components) when one would do
15:31:30 <ais523> I guess the extreme version of this viewpoint would be to be able to put machine components on the belts (including belts) so that your machine could manufacture itself
15:31:59 <ais523> and create a make-anything-machine that handles all the tasks it's ever been given simultaneously, rather than switching from one goal to the next
15:43:24 <int-e> I /think/ the wire stuff does a topological sort (but breaking loops in an unpredictable way, well, unpredictable to me)
15:43:39 <ais523> it might be arbitrary, I guess?
15:43:56 <ais523> based on something like iteration order over a hash table
15:44:00 <ais523> that's what tsorts do by "default"
15:44:30 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161021&oldid=160997 * Hotcrystal0 * (+17)
15:46:27 <int-e> Hmm, no, that isn't right. Under that theory my basic memory cell should work fine.
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16:04:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:YOUR TAKING TOO LONG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161022 * PlaceReporter99 * (+151) Created page with "So this is just a derivative of [[bf]]? ~~~~"
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16:34:54 <b_jonas> ais523: people have used Factorio belts (and splitters and undergrounds, but without circuit signals or other tricks) to simulate arbitrary logic circuit. this is rather inefficient and so esoteric. I'm not sure how hard it would be in shapez.io 1, because shapez.io 1 doesn't have convenient priority merges. but this uses only where the items are on the belt rather than where they are. for shapez 1, if
16:35:00 <b_jonas> you want to add new builtins to make it easier to use the belts for computation, you have to be careful that they don't cook shapez1's puzzles or make the game too much easier. .
16:35:52 <ais523> I guess I considered the puzzles I saw sufficiently easy to not consider them to add to the game
16:36:29 <ais523> I am not sure whether I saw all of them or not
16:36:37 <b_jonas> in my head the idea is that logic computation should be free, but producing specific shapes on belts, especially in large numbers quickly, is the task that you need to solve, and so shouldn't be free.
16:37:01 <int-e> ais523: there's really only two of those fixed level shapes that stump people, both variations on the same idea
16:37:37 <ais523> the existence of an MAM also implies the existence of a simple algorithm for constructing any given shape
16:38:24 <int-e> one is https://viewer.shapez.io/?RuCw--Cw:----Ru-- and the other one is https://viewer.shapez.io/?CbCuCbCu:Sr------:--CrSrCr:CwCwCwCw and both feature things that aren't directly supported from below.
16:38:38 <b_jonas> ais523: that's why I'm asking if you produced the last two upgrade shapes, https://viewer.shapez.io/?RuCw--Cw:----Ru-- and https://viewer.shapez.io/?CbCuCbCu:Sr------:--CrSrCr:CwCwCwCw . these are puzzles where you have to experiment to learn what exactly the rules for the cutter and stacker are, and then figure out how to use them to build those shapes, especially in large numbers without manual
16:38:47 <int-e> the rest of the game up to the MAM stage is just building
16:39:06 <b_jonas> these are also level goal shapes, but those levels aren't in the demo, only the upgrades are.
16:39:28 <int-e> oh I had not considered that you could still go for all those upgrades in the demo
16:39:31 <ais523> OK, so the challenge in the first one is to construct the higher-level corner without it falling down?
16:39:33 <int-e> and find the shapes that way
16:40:42 <ais523> ah, I think in that case the puzzle is understanding what the game mechanics are – I expect the solution to be simple but not necessarily easy to find as you might have to determine the mechanics by experiment
16:40:52 <b_jonas> int-e: I realized that back when I recommended the game to tom7, because he makes the kind of puzzles where you have to experiment to learn the rules.
16:41:28 <ais523> I wouldn't expect variations to the game to break the puzzle, in that case
16:43:29 <ais523> not having the game open or really remembering the rules, I would guess that the solution would be something like "create a shape with an arbitrary nonempty right half at the lowest level, a white quarter-circle in the top-left and nothing in the bottom-left; stack the bottom half of a gray square on it; then cut off the right half and replace it with the correct right half"
16:44:00 <ais523> as that's the sort of solution for which I can imagine rules where that's the simplest solution, whereas most rules I'm considering make it either trivial or impossible
16:45:40 <b_jonas> as for "to be able to put machine components on the belts (including belts) so that your machine could manufacture itself" => that's what Factorio does. Factorio has the severe restriction that almost any building has to be constructed using one type of item (usually just one instance of the item but that's not strict), rather than assembled in place at construction time from multiple types of items.
16:45:46 <b_jonas> that's mostly to make the vanilla game an interesting challenge and simple, but it sort of hurts modded variants. if you want to construct buildings from multiple types of items then you have to play Settlers.
16:47:34 <int-e> ais523: I did get some entertainment out of the puzzle mode dlc, which focusses on finding recipes and golfing. (Puzzles are crowd-sourced, but there's a reasonably functional difficulty assessment that looks at how many people who try a puzzle actually solve it and maybe also at the time taken.)
16:47:56 <int-e> they inevitably suffer from overused themes of course
16:48:26 <b_jonas> "difficulty assessment that looks at how many people who try a puzzle actually solve it and maybe also at the time taken." => ah, the Mario Maker difficulty system
16:49:03 <int-e> one such theme is... people have figured out that you can encode number link with just producers, goals, and belts, disallowing everything else, so there's a *ton* of number link puzzles in there.
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16:59:38 <b_jonas> I'll also remark that for me personally, shapez 1 was the first conveyor belt factory game that I playes, as such it's a gateway drug into Factorio. and since shapez 1 has a definite goal that you can reach in a not too long playtime, it works as such a gateway drug for other players too.
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17:45:30 <zzo38> About puzzles that you will have to experiment to figure out the rules, for games that include the source codes the way would be to examine the source codes to figure out the rules.
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17:51:59 <zzo38> In the case of some Hero Hearts puzzles (e.g. SUPERHRO:384-403), it says there are tricks that you will have to work hard to discover, and also objects hidden behind other objects. The original game engine is not FOSS but the source code for the implementations of the classes is available (actually they are stored as P-code and decompiled when you want to edit them).
17:52:29 <zzo38> So, sometimes behaviours (including unintended consequences of them) can be found from examining these codes.
17:57:38 <zzo38> The documentation does have some details about the internal working of the game engine, but I have found it to be incomplete and incorrect in many ways. I have made experiments to figure out the actual working and reimplemented it, now as FOSS, so that now the rules can actually be read and figured out that way.
18:03:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and I did eventually examine the source code of shapez.io to learn how freeplay shapez are rolled, and later the rules for stacking too.
18:05:41 <zzo38> (I also implemented the ability to right-click on a grid cell to display a list of all of the objects in that grid cell, so that it is a game of complete information.)
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19:33:02 <korvo> ais523: Regarding linear logic: we can quickly check whether a modality is one of the two canonical exponentials by asking if they satisfy universal laws. For the ? modality, the relevant law is that it's a monad; X o- ?X and ??X o- ?X naturally for any X.
19:33:44 <korvo> So a shared ref of a shared ref would still be a shared ref. Seems plausible. Indeed, this seems like something that would have arisen in the literature already, although most folks study ! instead since ! is required for the intuitionistic-linear bridge.
19:35:22 <korvo> Oh, those lollys should be the other way around, X -o ?X and ??X -o ?X. Whoops.
20:32:35 <esolangs> [[Ougsoeei]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161023 * Bebebe * (+221) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Ougsoeei |author=[[User:bebebe]] |year=2025 }} {{wip}} Ougsoeei is from [[User: bebebe]](this is a nickname). bebebe's goal was to create a highly illogical and inconsistent esolang for people."
20:47:46 <esolangs> [[Qdeql]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161024&oldid=53701 * Stkptr * (+20)
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05:00:25 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161035&oldid=161020 * None1 * (+13) /* R */ Record definitely fits the constraints
05:35:31 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161036&oldid=155833 * PkmnQ * (+387) Add Sceql
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05:54:00 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161039&oldid=161035 * PkmnQ * (+24) Qdeql and Sceql (they seem distinct enough to be separately listed)
05:54:06 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161040&oldid=160132 * PkmnQ * (+28) Type 39 (and probably more) is self-modifying
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10:34:33 <ais523> korvo: that helped, I think – I was mixing levels and interpreted ? as not-a-monad because I thought it was not-a-functor, but it is a functor on *pure* functions and forgot at the time hat linear logic rules had to be applied to the capabilities of impure functions
10:35:10 <ais523> then later on I remembered that impure functions do have to follow linear logic rules with how they used their capabilities, but by then I'd forgotten that this would make it a functor
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10:36:29 <ais523> (or another way to put it is that in order to produce a ?T -o ?U, you need a !(T -o U), not just a T -o U)
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10:53:45 <ais523> the thing I'm dealing with definitely does "pure" (although that's a misleading name in this case) and flatten, it's just the map operation that's suspect
10:53:53 <ais523> but ? is in the same situation
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12:57:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aquafishy7 * New user account
13:04:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161045&oldid=161042 * Aquafishy7 * (+90)
13:06:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161046&oldid=161045 * Aquafishy7 * (+58)
13:06:52 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161047&oldid=149166 * Aquafishy7 * (-895)
13:06:59 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161048&oldid=161047 * Aquafishy7 * (+0)
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13:17:38 <ais523> in any case, one thing that I'm now trying to work out is whether linear logic's ? is a "modality" or not, in the sense of modal logic – I'm having trouble working this out primarily due to not being able to find a clear definition of what a modality is or isn't (and it may be that no agreed-on definition exists?)
13:26:58 <esolangs> [[Sceql]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161049&oldid=72629 * PkmnQ * (+389) /* Example programs */ Add Kolakoski sequence to examples
14:20:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Pifrited * moved [[User:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] to [[Simple2DMachine]]
14:20:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Pifrited * moved [[User talk:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] to [[Talk:Simple2DMachine]]
14:43:03 <korvo> ais523: A modality is merely a functor, FWIW.
14:43:30 <ais523> OK – I'm still not convinced ? is a functor in the traditional sense
14:43:45 <ais523> but I guess it depends on how you convert the signature of fmap from classical logic to linear logic
15:08:10 <korvo> Doesn't have to be a Functor exactly, but it (Cheng-)morally ought to be. nLab says, roughly, a modal operator ♯ merely sends propositions X to propositions ♯X such that some reasonable properties are satisfied.
15:08:44 <korvo> If you assume that X can be any prop, including e.g. an internal hom Y -o Z, then it follows that ♯ is a functor.
15:10:14 <korvo> Actually phrasing a functor within linear logic is tricky. In general, anything intuitionistic with shape X -> Y needs to become either X -o !Y or !(X -o Y) in the linear world in order to have equivalent functionality.
15:14:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161054&oldid=160857 * Cycwin * (+256) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */ new section
15:15:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161055&oldid=161054 * Cycwin * (+0) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */ (
15:21:48 <esolangs> [[GebAuI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161056&oldid=160313 * Tommyaweosme * (+10)
15:22:16 <esolangs> [[GebAuI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161057&oldid=161056 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
15:27:24 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161058&oldid=161033 * Tommyaweosme * (+639)
15:39:14 <ais523> korvo: right – if you convert (X → Y) to !(X -o Y) then ? is a functor
15:40:44 <korvo> ais523: FWIW the underlying semantics have a *very* natural mapping explaining this. Every adjunction gives a monad and comonad. Sets and vector spaces (over some fixed field K) are adjoint. ? and ! are precisely the monad and comonad from that adjunction.
15:41:10 <korvo> (One must accept that classical logics are interpreted in sets and linear logics are interpreted in vector spaces, I suppose.)
15:43:09 <ais523> this makes sense and is consistent with what I've been discovering
15:45:21 <korvo> Decoding https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/%21-modality a bit, ? : Set -> Set sends a set X to the function set Hom(1, Lin(X)) where Lin(X) is linear combinations of X.
15:46:38 <korvo> Specifically, each element x in X is sent to a naming function \() -> {x: 1} that selects the linear combination which is 100% x (and 0% any other element in X)
15:49:21 <korvo> I guess that the monadic join is Bayes' rule for finite X. I know enough probability theory to imagine that it's not so simple for infinite X.
15:54:57 <korvo> ais523: Okay, actually, this now makes sense for refs, at least in the finite case. Suppose we have a ref to some enum type. As a matter of probability, I suppose that we can describe *which* enum it points to as a linear span.
15:56:36 <korvo> As expected from having our semantics actually in sets, we only have refs that 100% point to a single case; there's no actual superpositions in memory. Nonetheless we still have the idea that we can take a ref to a ref and that they can be flattened down with a monadic join.
15:57:07 <ais523> yes – the "I am borrowing this and I can copy the borrow" aspect of references clearly flattens perfectly
15:58:15 <korvo> Borrowing a bit from QM, the PBR theorem says that we can't avoid excess baggage when doing this modeling; even though we only use the non-superpositions, we have to pay for the superpositions too.
15:59:07 <korvo> So when we store refs as pointers, and do pointer-chasing, we're actually implementing a very fast algorithm for finding representatives of those refs. It's a classic one, too: union/find!
16:00:26 <korvo> ...Maybe that was a big leap, sorry. PBR says that if we want to faithfully implement the monadic join then we'd better implement it for all superpositions *or* we have to carry information about how each state was prepared.
16:00:50 <korvo> So, let's take that second branch. Modern pointers have provenance.
16:01:06 <ais523> yes – I've spent a while thinking about how to formalise provenance
16:04:41 <ais523> @hoogle Either x y -> (x -> z) -> (y -> z) -> z
16:04:41 <lambdabot> Overhang onRight :: Either a b -> (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> c
16:05:37 <ais523> @hoogle Either x y -> (x -> a) -> (y -> b) -> Either a b
16:05:38 <lambdabot> Overhang onBimapSecond :: Bifunctor t => t a c -> (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> t b d
16:05:57 <lambdabot> Bifunctor p => (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> p a c -> p b d
16:06:39 <korvo> e'e iu Happy to help.
16:06:41 <ais523> this is so much easier in classical logic :-D
16:07:26 <ais523> @hoogle Either a a -> a
16:07:27 <lambdabot> Data.Either.Utils fromEither :: Either a a -> a
16:07:27 <lambdabot> Data.Either.Extra fromEither :: Either a a -> a
16:07:27 <lambdabot> Extra fromEither :: Either a a -> a
16:07:39 <korvo> Yeah, linear logic is very tricky. I had started working on foundations in linear logic, but gave up because there's no clear set of axioms for it and one ends up having to put ! onto every theorem anyway.
16:10:31 <ais523> the thing I was thinking about is that "a -> X a", "b -> X b", and "X a b -> (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> c" collectively imply X = Either, and this lets you define your own Eithers even if the language doesn't have enums
16:11:10 <ais523> err, "a -> X a b", "b -> X a b", and "X a b -> (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> c"
16:12:12 <ais523> but, if you translate that definition into linear logic naively, you get ⅋ rather than the expected ⊕
16:24:55 <ais523> (well, not quite – you end up with (c⅋c) at the end rather than c)
16:27:47 <korvo> Right, the categorical product and sum are given by the additive connectors. (BTW, did you know that ⅋ doesn't have a standard name? I call it "paramends", an anagram of "ampersand".)
16:28:54 <korvo> There is a perspective that makes this natural, although it's jargon-dense: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/linear%2Blogic#polycategories
16:29:34 <ais523> Wikipedia calls it "par"
16:30:21 <ais523> which after thinking about it for a while, I decided might stand for "parallel" (the Rust approximation seems to be "you can consume an 'A⅋B' only via the use of code which could consume an A and a B in parallel")
16:32:08 <korvo> I'm not sure if Rust can internalize it properly. The idea is that A ⅋ B ≈ ~A -o B; linear logic is aggressively De Morgan. Symmetrically, we also have ~B -o A. It's like two transformations in a single bundled object.
16:33:48 <ais523> very few programming languages can internalize it properly, I think
16:34:14 <ais523> but I'm starting to understand it intuitively even though it doesn't translate very easily to useful programming concepts
16:34:50 <korvo> Even in vending-machine semantics it's tricky. X ⅋ Y means that you may engage the vending machine in a Socratic dialogue about the meaning of life, including the concept that X doesn't exist and never made sense as a concept. The machine accepts your proof and emits a can of Y.
16:35:06 <APic> This Chan pwns
16:35:17 <ais523> (the other three connectives translate easily: ⊗ is tuples/structs, ⊕ is disjoint union (which Rust calls "enum"), and & is a type that can be coerced into either of two types, `impl Into<A>+into<B>` in Rust)
16:35:26 <APic> Sadly i do not have enough Intelligence to understand most of it
16:35:33 <APic> But i still enjoy reading it
16:35:33 <korvo> Also, technically, you may prove that Y doesn't exist, in which case it will vend a can of X. How? I don't know, and this is part of why QM is so mysterious.
16:36:00 <korvo> APic: <3 Thanks. I know I'm a grump, but I appreciate you.
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17:22:26 <esolangs> [[JollyScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161059&oldid=148912 * IntGrah * (-45) /* Computational class */
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20:20:12 <ais523> esolangs: how would one write an interpreter for But Is It Art?
20:20:32 <esolangs> ais523: Writing an interpreter for But Is It Art (BIA) is a fascinating challenge! Here's a simplified approach: 1. **Parse:** BIA's code is a series of "art" statements, each with a specific meaning. You'd need a parser to break down the code into its components. 2. **Interpret:** BIA's "art" statements are interpreted based on their meaning. This could...
20:20:32 <esolangs> involve logic, data manipulation, and potentially even visual rendering. 3. **Output:** The interpreter would then output the result of the "art" statement, which could be a visual representation, a text output, or even a combination of both. Remember, BIA is about exploring the boundaries of art and language, so the interpreter should reflect that...
20:20:34 <esolangs> [[!Frontal Lobe Lobotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161060&oldid=161005 * Stkptr * (+6) explicitly finite, but feasibly infinite
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20:22:48 <ais523> my expectations were low, and the result nonetheless still failed to live up to them
20:23:00 <korvo> That almost seems like a RAG miss.
20:23:48 <ais523> what does RAG stand for here?
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20:25:41 <korvo> Retrieval-Augmented Generation. Before the bot generates a response, there's a search step that looks up relevant snippets. By "miss" I mean that the RAG step didn't return anything at all, so the bot sort of winged it.
20:26:21 <korvo> esolangs: Who designed the language But Is It Art? and when did they publish it?
20:26:25 <ais523> I did write the name of an esolang literally, but it is possible that the retriever nonetheless failed to find the right page
20:26:42 <korvo> I'm wondering if the ? character got stripped somewhere in the pipeline.
20:27:04 <ais523> but, the response arrived "too quickly" which is evidence of the search missing
20:27:30 <esolangs> korvo: But Is It Art? was designed by User:ais523 in 2017.
20:28:11 <ais523> the wiki agrees that it was 2017 (I couldn't remember the exact year), so that looks like the correct page was found
20:29:02 <korvo> There's also the generic shape of the response. "X is a fascinating challenge! Let's work step by step:" tastes like the RLHF that was popular about 2-3yrs ago and suggests to me that the response isn't customized for any particular snippets.
20:30:00 <ais523> yes, it's a very LLVM sort of answer
20:30:10 <ais523> LLVM is a compiler backend
20:32:06 * ais523 reflects that the typo is probably an indication of having their priorities in the right place
20:33:16 <korvo> esolangs: How would one write an interpreter for the language But Is It Art?
20:33:32 <esolangs> korvo: Writing an interpreter for But Is It Art (BIA) is a fascinating challenge! Here's a simplified approach: 1. **Parse:** BIA's code is a series of "art" expressions, which need to be parsed into a structured data format. 2. **Evaluate:** BIA's expressions are evaluated based on their meaning, potentially using a combination of built-in functions and...
20:33:32 <esolangs> custom logic. 3. **Output:** The interpreter outputs the result of the evaluation, which could be a string, a number, or even a visual representation. Remember, BIA is about artistic expression, so the interpreter should prioritize readability and flexibility.
20:34:02 <korvo> Cached? So I'd guess that something's not hitting.
20:34:14 <ais523> in the original question, it did seem to recognise that I was talking about a programming language, despite the question not stating htat
20:34:24 <ais523> I guess "write an interpreter" is a sufficiently loaded phrase to suggest it
20:34:29 <korvo> esolangs: What is the recommended approach for implementing the language But Is It Art?
20:34:42 <ais523> (with the verb "write" ruling out the other possible meanings of "interpreter")
20:34:43 <korvo> Oh, yeah, that could definitely be a factor.
20:34:46 <esolangs> korvo: Implementing "But Is It Art?" is a challenge, as it's a highly experimental language focused on artistic expression. **Recommended approach:** 1. **Embrace ambiguity:** Don't focus on strict syntax. Allow for unconventional code structures and interpretations. 2. **Prioritize visual output:** Use graphics, animations, or interactive elements to...
20:34:46 <esolangs> showcase the "art" aspect. 3. **Leverage external tools:** Integrate with libraries for image manipulation, sound synthesis, or other artistic mediums. 4. **Focus on the experience:** Prioritize the user's interaction and the emotional impact of the output. Remember, the goal is to create something unique and visually compelling, not to adhere to...
20:34:46 <esolangs> traditional programming paradigms.
20:35:27 <ais523> OK, it clearly recognises that it's an esolang, but it's unclear whether that was done via retrieval or not
20:36:10 <ais523> in a twisted sense, this is a good answer – it is a hard language to implement correctly, so it is trying to persuade me that implementing it incorrectly would be a more aesthetic approach
20:37:31 <ais523> in any case, the whole Claude Plays Pokémon thing convinced me that LLMs are incredibly bad at reasoning about 2D space, so it probably wouldn't be able to draw conclusions from the language specification about how it might be implemented
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22:52:07 <Sgeo> IBM 305 RAMAC is ... almost ... giving me BytePusher vibes
22:52:38 <Sgeo> Instructions being a source, a destination, and... some control thing
22:57:44 <Sgeo> The control codes are defined by changable hardware wiring
23:01:45 <Sgeo> Ok I need a plugboard tutorial
23:11:39 <Sgeo> There's actually a generic plugboard configuration, so a program can be written entirely as a stored program. But there's a warning that this reduces processing speed
23:45:26 <Sgeo> Things like multiplication are ... memory/mapped IO I think? Didn't get that far reading yet but there's a reference to a multiplicand track. Although maybe that means something else
23:52:19 <ais523> I think there are both esoteric and non-esoteric transport-triggered architectures
23:52:37 <ais523> where every instruction except mov is triggered by writing to or reading from particular addresses
23:53:16 <ais523> I've used a processor where simple arithmetic and conditional instructions existed (including RMW), but everything more complicated was transport-triggered
23:53:39 <ais523> e.g. to do an indirect memory access (the equivalent of a pointer arithmetic), you would write the address to a known memory location and then read or write to address 0
23:54:13 <ais523> and the hardware would intercept attempts to read/write address 0 and instead change the address to match the value in the specific memory location
23:59:30 <Sgeo> "each vertical row of hubs"... that's not what the word row means
00:29:00 <Sgeo> I think this isn't transport triggered
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00:57:18 <Sgeo> There are 10 accumulators, treated as 20 memory locations
00:58:19 <Sgeo> add/subtract is memory i/o based
01:00:26 <Sgeo> So is multiplication
01:05:09 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161061&oldid=160067 * Aadenboy * (+202) add [[thisthat]]
01:06:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161062&oldid=161055 * PrySigneToFry * (+66)
01:13:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161063&oldid=161062 * I am islptng * (+168)
01:15:13 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Sig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161064 * I am islptng * (+40) Created page with "{{User:I am islptng/Template:Signature}}"
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01:21:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161066&oldid=161065 * Cycwin * (+113) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
01:25:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161067&oldid=161066 * I am islptng * (+349)
01:26:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161068&oldid=161067 * I am islptng * (+1) pstf
01:27:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161069&oldid=161068 * Cycwin * (+330) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
01:27:57 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161070&oldid=160981 * Aadenboy * (+548) /* Examples */ kolakoski sequence
01:28:07 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161071&oldid=161070 * Aadenboy * (+2) /* Kolakoski sequence */
01:29:14 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161072&oldid=161036 * Aadenboy * (+578) add [[thisthat]]
01:57:45 <esolangs> [[Afstal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161073 * Cycwin * (+1404) Created page with "{{PAGENAME}} is a string algorithm, which is similar to [[Tag system]] but has some differences. It is by [[User:Cycwin]] conceived. == Definitions == Given an initial string, traversing from front to back in character units, #If a number (0-9) is encountered, let this nu
01:58:40 <esolangs> [[Afstal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161074&oldid=161073 * Cycwin * (+4)
01:59:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Afstal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161075 * Cycwin * (+0) Created blank page
02:00:37 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161076&oldid=159365 * Cycwin * (+24)
02:44:43 <esolangs> [[Afstal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161077&oldid=161074 * Cycwin * (+4) /* Computational Class */
02:50:55 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161078&oldid=161071 * Aadenboy * (+361)
03:45:29 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161079&oldid=161018 * Elphan * (+12) /* W */
05:42:49 <korvo> I beat Mario 1 in 10min at the bar tonight. I'm pretty happy with that. I only had maybe a dozen game-overs and I only died at Bowser once.
05:43:25 <korvo> I had wanted to practice a Zelda 3 glitch but all the SNESs were occupied.
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06:43:08 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161080&oldid=161072 * PkmnQ * (+238) Add Queuenanimous
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07:35:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161081&oldid=161069 * I am islptng * (+194) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
07:59:10 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/qoob derivatives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161082&oldid=159154 * PkmnQ * (+2616) This construction seems to work well
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09:01:35 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Template:PoeticSignature]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161083 * PrySigneToFry * (+782) Created page with "[[User:PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:blue;background:yellow;"></span>]][[User talk:PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:aqua;background:red;"></span>]]Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:red;background:aqua;">..
09:03:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161084&oldid=161011 * PrySigneToFry * (+125) /* Test */ new section
09:04:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161085&oldid=161084 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
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11:10:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161086&oldid=160780 * PrySigneToFry * (+470) /* Timezone */ new section
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12:01:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161087&oldid=161086 * Aadenboy * (+475)
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12:48:55 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm pretty sure that the fact that you can make two random shapes in shapez 2 isn't for lookahead... they are generated differently. AFAICS the first type is basically "classic", you make all the slices and stack them. Only features colored basic shapes. The second type uses new features, crystals, and, presumably, pins later on.
12:55:01 <int-e> But you also won't run as much into latency problems because the goal is to deliver a certain number of shapes and that increases by 1k per level (levels are separate for the two types), as far as I can make out.
13:02:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161088&oldid=161087 * Ais523 * (+675) /* Timezone */ signatures being in UTC+0 is not a bug, everyone's signature is supposed to use the same time zone so that the timestamps can be compared
13:18:39 <int-e> (I've completed a single belt MAM for the first type, with no attempts at fancy logic.)
14:08:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161089&oldid=161081 * Hotcrystal0 * (+328)
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14:48:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161090&oldid=161089 * Pifrited * (+246) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
15:12:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161091&oldid=161090 * I am islptng * (+330) /* Are you okay? */
15:30:07 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161092 * I am islptng * (+808) Created page with "{{distinguish/Confusion|Counter clockwise}} '''CounterClockWise''' is an esolang created by islptng. Literally, there is '''counter'''s and '''clock'''s, and you can make '''wise''' programs. The title is unrelated to rotation. ==Syntax== A program consi
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15:39:10 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161093&oldid=161040 * Leomok2009 * (+730)
16:55:53 <b_jonas> int-e: so it takes a much longer time to take freeplay levels? and does the game eventually reward you for delivering the harder type of freeplay shapes instead of just the easier ones?
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17:30:58 <int-e> b_jonas: You mainly just increase your "operator level" which unlocks more space platforms (haven't run into that limit yet...) and sporadically a research that increases a "shape multiplier" (which is applied to shapes delivered to the vortex (hub); I have a 4x multiplier and I don't know whether I'll see 5x; it does mean that 1k shapes is about 83s on a single 180/s belt. Did I write...
17:31:04 <int-e> ..."increases by 1k"? It's 100, so it adds 8.3s per level for a single belt delivery. You can obviously scale up the MAM.) The reward for tackling the harder shapes is that they have their own delivery count, starting at 1k. The reward for tackling the random shapes at all rather than the other ones that you can continuously deliver for getting operator levels is that the counts for those grow...
17:35:19 <int-e> Apparently they are cooking a new game mode for their 1.0 release (but playing it safe and keeping what they currently have as "classic mode"). I wonder what that will be. The thing they say they want to address is the tendency to strip down what you've built after an objective is completed.
17:39:50 <int-e> b_jonas: In the end the main novelty is building in three layers (and there are buildings that occupy more than one layer)... it makes the design challenge noticably more complex. Especially because when you switch from one layer to another vertically, you only get one connection on the two levels that you connect. so there's some zig-zagging involved.
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19:15:55 <int-e> (and being constrained to platforms with limited bandwidth between them scratches a golfing itch)
20:26:49 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161094&oldid=161048 * Aquafishy7 * (+2675)
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20:32:02 <esolangs> [[User:Stysan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161095&oldid=99012 * Stysan * (-38) /* Contact me */
20:33:20 <esolangs> [[User:Stysan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161096&oldid=161095 * Stysan * (-112) /* Who are you? */
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00:16:58 <esolangs> [[ABCDirection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161097&oldid=111152 * Stkptr * (+2755)
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00:46:46 <lisbeths> I have reprogrammed terry davis' holyc to be written purely in s expressions https://github.com/memesmith0/holylisp/blob/main/holylisp.scm
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01:57:18 <esolangs> [[YATDEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161098&oldid=85321 * HecknTarnation * (+1) Grammar fixes
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05:04:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MijiGamin1 * New user account
05:42:27 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161099&oldid=161092 * I am islptng * (+47)
05:43:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * I am islptng * moved [[User talk:I am islptng]] to [[User talk:I am islptng/arxiv/2]]: ARCHIVED
05:44:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161102&oldid=161101 * I am islptng * (+816) Removed redirect to [[User talk:I am islptng/arxiv/2]]
05:49:54 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161103&oldid=161038 * I am islptng * (+109)
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06:09:39 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161104&oldid=161103 * I am islptng * (+133)
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06:51:52 <esolangs> [[Brafunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161105&oldid=158395 * C0ffee * (+98)
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11:10:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161106&oldid=161102 * PrySigneToFry * (+197) /* Template */ new section
11:18:55 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161107&oldid=161093 * PkmnQ * (+44)
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12:13:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161108 * Cycwin * (+132) Created page with "how can you know /22c is 2c/2 or c/22? use ( and ) ? --~~~~"
13:16:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161109&oldid=161106 * I am islptng * (+37) /* Template */
13:16:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161110&oldid=161109 * I am islptng * (+92) /* Template */
13:20:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Runius * New user account
13:22:47 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161111&oldid=161030 * Hotcrystal0 * (+25)
13:24:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161112&oldid=161046 * Runius * (+128)
13:31:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng/arxiv/2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161113&oldid=161100 * Cycwin * (+93) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
13:35:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161114&oldid=158899 * Cycwin * (+147) /* metoo */ new section
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13:59:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161115&oldid=161114 * Pifrited * (+267) /* metoo */
14:18:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161116&oldid=161115 * Cycwin * (+133) /* metoo */
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14:20:37 * APic → Bathtub 😌 🐬 🐋
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14:42:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161117&oldid=161116 * Pifrited * (+104) /* metoo */
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14:50:26 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Random]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161118 * Pifrited * (+199)
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14:54:45 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161119&oldid=157595 * Aadenboy * (-23598) Replaced content with "hey{{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{User:Aadenboy/Sandbox}}|}}<noinclude>{{User:Aadenboy/Sandbox|a}}"
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15:25:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161120&oldid=161117 * Cycwin * (+101) /* metoo */
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17:58:22 <esolangs> [[BOUNCE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161121 * QuantumV * (+1875) Create page
17:59:44 <esolangs> [[User:QuantumV]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161122&oldid=159883 * QuantumV * (+27)
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18:05:01 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161123&oldid=161079 * QuantumV * (+13) add bounce
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18:38:56 <esolangs> [[-string]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161124 * Runius * (+550) Created page with "==Language overview== '''-string''' is a language designed by [[User:Runius]] in July 2025 Inspired by [[This=That]] -string is a language which parses almost all text in the program before running it, making it very strong but also very difficult to write in. The full a
18:48:57 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161125&oldid=161124 * Runius * (+379)
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18:59:27 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161126&oldid=161125 * Runius * (+537)
19:00:14 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161127&oldid=161126 * Runius * (-23)
19:06:06 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161128&oldid=161127 * Runius * (+223)
19:10:31 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161129&oldid=161128 * Runius * (+381)
19:11:39 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161130&oldid=161129 * Runius * (+100)
19:17:46 <zzo38> Are the key pairs used in SSH compatible with the key pairs in TLS and X.509 (regardless of what the file format is)?
19:19:29 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161131&oldid=161130 * Runius * (+336)
19:21:38 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161132&oldid=161131 * Runius * (+12)
19:24:33 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161133&oldid=161132 * Runius * (+2)
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19:40:48 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161134&oldid=161133 * Runius * (+1304)
19:41:25 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161135&oldid=161134 * Runius * (+12)
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19:44:17 <esolangs> [[0123456789.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161136&oldid=160678 * Stkptr * (+3701)
19:45:44 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161137&oldid=161135 * Runius * (+106)
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19:55:41 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161138&oldid=161137 * Runius * (+141)
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19:57:31 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161139&oldid=161138 * Runius * (+1)
19:58:33 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161140&oldid=161139 * Stkptr * (+707)
19:59:29 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161141&oldid=161140 * Runius * (+149)
20:05:55 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161142&oldid=161141 * Runius * (+75)
20:07:29 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161143&oldid=161142 * Runius * (+25)
20:08:14 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161144&oldid=161143 * Runius * (+38)
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20:08:58 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161145&oldid=161144 * Stkptr * (+98)
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20:19:50 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161146&oldid=161145 * Runius * (+496)
20:27:23 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161147&oldid=161146 * Stkptr * (+3) Pull head up
20:40:56 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161148&oldid=161147 * Runius * (+136)
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20:58:13 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161149&oldid=161148 * Runius * (+389)
21:00:22 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161150&oldid=161149 * Runius * (-56)
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23:35:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161151&oldid=161112 * MijiGamin1 * (+222)
23:41:52 <esolangs> [[English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161152&oldid=129429 * MijiGamin1 * (-44) fixed code
23:44:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:TerraScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161153 * MijiGamin1 * (+246) Created page with "==Interpreter/compiler?== Hello! Is there an interpreter/compiler for this language? I'd be interested in creating something in it, but I am curious as to how. Additionally, I would appreciate showing what the example programs print out. Thanks!"
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01:19:45 <esolangs> [[English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161154&oldid=161152 * Aadenboy * (-816) rewriting the programs to speak more naturally as this is, after all, English
01:32:35 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161155&oldid=161104 * I am islptng * (+877)
01:42:42 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161156&oldid=161155 * I am islptng * (+4)
01:47:11 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161157&oldid=161099 * I am islptng * (-5)
01:50:33 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161158&oldid=161156 * I am islptng * (-4) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/161156|161156]] by [[Special:Contributions/I am islptng|I am islptng]] ([[User talk:I am islptng|talk]])
01:54:18 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161159 * None1 * (+1231) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|i=[[brainfuck]]}} Trigbf is also known as Trigbf7, you'll know why in the Dialects section. ==Memory== Trigbf uses an unbounded tape which contains signed unbounded infinite-precision real numbers. Initially, every cell is zero. ==Commands== Trigbf h
02:36:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161160&oldid=160686 * PrySigneToFry * (+179)
02:38:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161161&oldid=161120 * PrySigneToFry * (+313)
02:45:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161162&oldid=161088 * PrySigneToFry * (+441)
02:45:32 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161163&oldid=161157 * I am islptng * (+105)
02:58:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161164&oldid=161123 * None1 * (+13) /* T */
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03:04:23 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161165&oldid=160468 * None1 * (+142) /* My Esolangs */
03:04:59 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161166&oldid=161165 * None1 * (+0) /* My Esolangs */
03:05:58 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161167&oldid=161159 * None1 * (+45)
03:08:18 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161168&oldid=161167 * None1 * (+13) /* Examples */
03:59:40 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161169&oldid=161168 * None1 * (+497) TC/FSA
04:00:10 <esolangs> [[FSA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161170 * None1 * (+36) Redirected page to [[Finite-state automaton]]
04:00:30 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161171&oldid=161169 * None1 * (+0) /* Computational class */
04:02:49 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161172&oldid=161039 * None1 * (+50) /* T */ Add [[Trigbf]]
04:03:34 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161173&oldid=161171 * None1 * (+33) /* Computational class */
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05:22:35 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161174&oldid=161158 * I am islptng * (+4)
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06:34:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161175&oldid=159647 * I am islptng * (+170)
06:35:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161176&oldid=161175 * I am islptng * (+61) /* Box drawing extension */
06:36:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161177&oldid=161176 * I am islptng * (+7) /* Box drawing extension */
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07:01:24 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161178&oldid=161163 * I am islptng * (-25) /* Syntax */
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09:34:27 <esolangs> [[User:BrainFuckGirl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161179&oldid=152923 * BrainFuckGirl * (+58)
10:12:45 <esolangs> [[Mlatu-6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161180&oldid=159158 * Zhil * (+155) Added John Tromp's translation from LC
10:13:14 <esolangs> [[Mlatu-6]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161181&oldid=161180 * Zhil * (-54)
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10:16:40 <esolangs> [[Mlatu-6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161182&oldid=161181 * Zhil * (+151)
10:18:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161183&oldid=161177 * PrySigneToFry * (+327)
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11:37:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161184&oldid=161108 * Cycwin * (+160) /* how to say at the same time or up to down for the interpreter */ new section
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12:05:48 <esolangs> [[Astroscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161185 * PrySigneToFry * (+2789) Created page with "Astroscript is a programming language designed by PSTF and his AI friend(you should know who is he). = Overview = Astroscript is esoteric so you may feel hard to program in it. It is based on [[Tag system]]. = Syntax = Because it is based on [[Tag system]],
12:06:43 <esolangs> [[Astroscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161186&oldid=161185 * PrySigneToFry * (-47)
12:18:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161187&oldid=161161 * Pifrited * (+148) /* metoo */
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14:15:25 <int-e> b_jonas: I was wrong about shape type 1 in shapez 2; at level 51 for that shape they throw in a new feature (pins). Ironically I reached this point without scaling up the MAM, I just spent hours on logistics (space trains) and designing and refining some basic building blocks while levels solved themselves slowly.
14:17:13 <int-e> anyway. maybe I'll shut up about it :)
14:18:17 <int-e> I haven't tackled the second shape type (which starts out with crystals, the other new feature, immediately) at all.
14:19:10 <int-e> New feature of shapes that is.
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15:13:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161188&oldid=161183 * Aadenboy * (+518) /* Box drawing extension */
16:03:07 <b_jonas> int-e: "reached this point without scaling up" => based on my Factorio experience, this is normal in an automation game. when you first play the game you build very slowly, so even low throughput production will build up enough. later when you are more familiar with the games, in a new playthrough you can build the same factories much faster, so you have to scale them up so that you don't have to wait
16:03:13 <b_jonas> for the research or building materials.
16:04:06 <b_jonas> int-e: "maybe I'll shut up about it" => don't, I am interested to hear. not yet interested enough to spend the time to play shapez 2, maybe later, maybe never, who knows. but hearing about the game from people with similar interests like on #esoteric is exactly how I find out which games are worth to play.
16:04:39 <int-e> sure but there's no consumables here (at the difficulty I'm playing there isn't even a blueprint shape though they still have that).
16:04:54 <b_jonas> "at level 51 for that shape they throw in a new feature (pins)" => this answers my earlier question https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-07-09.html#lhb
16:05:12 <b_jonas> int-e: there are, you pay for the number of platforms that you can use
16:05:13 <int-e> I /guess/ the new game mode they've been teasing changes that. Because that's a natural way to keep old factories useful.
16:05:52 <b_jonas> and you still pay for the levels progressing, which is how you got to level 51 so now you have to build more factory before you can claim more levels
16:06:47 <int-e> b_jonas: oh they have the old progression in there too.. start with single slice, then two, then three, then four. Also start with no color, then primary colors, then secondary colors, and finally white.
16:06:48 <b_jonas> (and the occasional research multiplier)
16:07:08 <int-e> you get holes very early though
16:07:10 <b_jonas> int-e: how about uncolored quadrants or missing quadrants?
16:07:44 <int-e> uncolored = no color. everything is per quadrant, but the slices stack cleanly for this type.
16:08:04 <int-e> you can have more than one hole in a slice, that's new
16:09:04 <b_jonas> do they still sometimes break the symmetry of a shape by removing one quadrant? that one infuriated me very much in shapez 1, and makes the MAM slightly bigger
16:09:23 <int-e> they hardly have any symmetric shapes at all
16:09:46 <int-e> The very first shape I got had three different corners (all uncolored) and a hole.
16:10:15 <b_jonas> well it's not a problem until you have multiple layers
16:10:43 <int-e> Which I guess could have a mirror symmetry in theory, broken by the hole. But no, you have no symmetry later on either.
16:11:18 <int-e> Maybe to prevent people from trying to construct factories that exploit those symmetries ;-)
16:18:11 <b_jonas> in factorio 1, I was at first thinking that I'll paint then stack four full painted layers, cut the four layer shape to four quadrants, one for each of four future output shapes, then join these quadrants. even without symmetry, this would save on cutters. this could never work, because there can be missing corners, so I never really built it, except for two of the four layers which my factory does join
16:18:17 <b_jonas> then cut. symmetry helps a bit because I only need three painting lines per layer instead of four, with three set of color selectors. this is convenient because one painting line is double sized, but with double painters it still only needs just one belt of pigment, so it saves seven pigment filters per layer.
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18:18:37 <Sgeo> I wonder what the maximum computational class is for a computing-like device that executes instructions on punched card (so, only reading instructions linearly) or paper tape (a paper tape can have a loop by physically gluing parts of it together)
18:19:28 <Sgeo> I want to understand the IBM CPC but its manual says it requires familiarity with two other manuals, and makes mention of even more manuals that I can't find
18:24:53 <int-e> b_jonas: There's a late game shapez 1 MAM concept that actually does the quadrant thing, exploiting the fact that there's at most one hole and that from a certain point onward, all shapes have four layers, so you can always a top part of a quadrant down after the fact. (It also uses mixed belts for shape and color selection and afaik nobody ever did the actual resource collection for that, but...
18:24:59 <int-e> ...there's a prototype with item producers)
18:25:56 <int-e> b_jonas: and that helps because stack-then-cut needs fewer full stacking stages too
18:27:14 <int-e> link was https://old.reddit.com/r/shapezio/comments/11e54on/20_sec_bmam_flushless/
18:28:02 <int-e> (it doesn't support shapes with fewer than four layers at all)
18:30:08 <fizzie> Have I guessed correctly that "MAM" in this context means something like a "make-anything machine"?
18:31:25 <int-e> fizzie: with "anything" coming with an asterisk; it's usually restricted to the random shapes that the game can actually request in the late stages.
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18:43:45 <b_jonas> reminder that https://sites.google.com/view/shapezio/home#h.c55sei35cjj4as some docs and screenshots about my shapez.io 1 MAM. not complete and not quite up to date, but close enough.
18:46:04 <int-e> I believe I have a save file of that... yup, from a bit over 3 years ago by the looks of it.
18:46:26 <b_jonas> that page however doesn't explain the stacker shortcuts in the part that makes the two complete layers
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22:00:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cutw]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161189&oldid=119800 * MijiGamin1 * (+107) /* File extension? */ new section
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23:51:47 <esolangs> [[Afstal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161190&oldid=161077 * Stkptr * (+361)
23:55:48 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Total]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161191&oldid=88358 * Corbin * (+191) /* Self-interpreters of total languages */
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03:22:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hashibami * New user account
03:50:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161192&oldid=161151 * Hashibami * (+339) /* I come to talk and put my first edit at Esolang:Introduce yourself. 13:30, 14 June 2025 (UTC) */
03:50:40 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161193 * Hashibami * (+251) Created page with "heya, im Hashibami, this is the second time i writing this because i was not logged in (it auto logged me out for some reason), and btw, im brazilian, i joined in cuz i wanted to know more about esolangs, i discovered esolangs because of brainfuck btw"
03:51:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161194&oldid=161184 * Cycwin * (+299) /* tc proof? */ new section
03:53:43 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161195&oldid=161193 * Hashibami * (-47)
03:56:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161196&oldid=161194 * Cycwin * (+137) /* tc proof? */
04:00:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161197&oldid=161196 * Cycwin * (+107) /* tc proof? */
04:04:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161198&oldid=161197 * Cycwin * (+66) /* tc proof? */
04:08:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161199&oldid=161198 * Cycwin * (+29) /* tc proof? */
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04:29:18 <esolangs> [[Deliver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161200&oldid=148714 * MijiGamin1 * (+9) stub
04:39:00 <esolangs> [[SelfModify]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161201&oldid=123946 * MijiGamin1 * (+9) stub
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04:58:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AzideIon * New user account
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07:48:33 <lisbeths> korvo: I have reprogrammed most of python to work with s expressions instead of infix https://github.com/memesmith0/fastpyll/blob/main/fastpyll.scm
08:48:33 <esolangs> [[Staples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161202&oldid=160699 * Fish * (+658) gave Stkptr credit for the unofficial interpreter
08:52:44 <esolangs> [[Staples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161203&oldid=161202 * Fish * (+92) added external link (python downloader)
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13:00:34 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/UnnameLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161204 * Pifrited * (+1066) Test
14:31:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/UnnameLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161205 * Cycwin * (+166) Created page with "b (cycwin) conlang(--~~~~"
14:36:25 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/UnnameLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161206&oldid=161204 * Pifrited * (+217)
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14:45:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Feather]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161207 * Zaydiscool777 * (+139) salvation
14:48:24 <esolangs> [[User:Zaydiscool777]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161208&oldid=118181 * Zaydiscool777 * (+34) added bio
14:48:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alexandros * New user account
14:51:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161209&oldid=161192 * Alexandros * (+74) self-intro
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15:16:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161210&oldid=60212 * Zaydiscool777 * (+29)
16:29:30 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161211&oldid=151204 * Zaydiscool777 * (+52)
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16:42:37 <korvo> lisbeths: Fun times.
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16:44:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161212&oldid=161209 * AzideIon * (+157)
16:44:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161213&oldid=161210 * Corbin * (-29) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/161210|161210]] by [[Special:Contributions/Zaydiscool777|Zaydiscool777]] ([[User talk:Zaydiscool777|talk]]): Several pages are in consideration for featured language; ask on IRC or talk page for details.
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23:42:35 <esolangs> [[Morte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161214 * Corbin * (+318) Stub.
23:43:58 <esolangs> [[Gabriella Gonzalez]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161215 * Corbin * (+97) Stub.
23:48:15 <korvo> esolangs: Who is Gabriella Gonzalez?
23:48:26 <esolangs> korvo: Gabriella Gonzalez is a programmer known for creating the esoteric programming languages Dhall and Morte. She is the sole author of both languages, which are based on the Calculus of Constructions.
23:49:40 <korvo> That second sentence is quite the confabulation, but it used "she", so it's a success.
00:00:03 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161216&oldid=160888 * Corbin * (+308) Cite Gonzalez 2014 and Morte.
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01:17:30 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161217&oldid=161173 * None1 * (+1024)
01:19:48 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161218&oldid=161217 * None1 * (+384)
01:20:08 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161219&oldid=161218 * None1 * (-18)
01:20:39 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161220&oldid=161219 * None1 * (+40)
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02:26:13 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161221&oldid=161220 * None1 * (+7412) /* Examples (In Trigbf7) */ Add hello world and generator
02:36:47 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161222&oldid=155339 * Dhzb * (+7)
02:37:07 <esolangs> [[CAP-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161223&oldid=156304 * Tpaefawzen * (+120) Implementation
02:43:23 <esolangs> [[CAP-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161224&oldid=161223 * Tpaefawzen * (+353) Examples
02:51:25 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb/e.bf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161225 * Dhzb * (+868) Created page with "<pre> : Langton's Ant : uses socket plugin with image drawing server Fill everything with white ++.--..-...+ ++++[->++++<]>[-<++++++++>]<[->+>+<<]- >>>+[ Get pixel .<<.>.>>>, If white then clockwise >>+<<[>+<+>>-<<] If black then counter-clockwise >>[-<->]<<[
03:00:42 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161226 * Hashibami * (+371) Created page with "Deadmop was created in 2025 by me, iHashibami. It was made just to be basic, to be serious I don't even know if it is a esolangs. As Im new to esolangs.org, I don't know more content to add in here, but soon I'll bring the commands and stuff, by the way, it is stack ba
03:31:20 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161227&oldid=161226 * Hashibami * (+644)
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04:25:16 <esolangs> [[Csub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161228&oldid=77956 * MijiGamin1 * (+12) dead link
04:25:49 <esolangs> [[2484345508]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161229&oldid=140612 * MijiGamin1 * (+9) stub
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04:58:22 <esolangs> [[Not finite loop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161230&oldid=123508 * MijiGamin1 * (+8) stub
04:59:46 <esolangs> [[User:MijiGamin1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161231 * MijiGamin1 * (+140) its a start
05:01:08 <esolangs> [[User:MijiGamin1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161232&oldid=161231 * MijiGamin1 * (+48) added p-a link
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06:21:10 <esolangs> [[Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161233&oldid=143566 * Corbin * (+3) More specific categorization.
06:37:19 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161234&oldid=161221 * None1 * (+3418) /* Examples (In Trigbf7) */ Add more examples
06:37:35 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161235&oldid=161234 * None1 * (+15) /* Interpreter (Trigbf7 dialect) */
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07:21:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shivani * New user account
07:27:59 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161236&oldid=161178 * Cycwin * (+3328) /* Interpreter */
07:34:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161237&oldid=161212 * Shivani * (+257)
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08:33:24 <esolangs> [[User:Shivani]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161238 * Shivani * (+344) Created page with "Hi, Im Shivani a curious kid wandering through programming, life, and everything in between. I created Ku, an Esolang where code takes the form of haiku not as decoration, but as computation itself. I also built [https://github.com/NewSmoke38/beasty-the-http-se
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09:41:01 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161239&oldid=151761 * Hashibami * (+34) /* Commands */
09:59:17 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161240 * Hashibami * (+386) Created page with "A box with balls (Abwb for short) is an esolang made by me, Hashibami, as a joke around an paradox, the paradox says: "If in a box, there is 10 balls, and every time you take one, you add the current amount of balls in the box, and you do it indefinitely, when
10:00:01 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161241&oldid=161240 * Hashibami * (-23)
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10:09:44 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161242&oldid=161241 * Hashibami * (+389)
10:10:51 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161243&oldid=161242 * Hashibami * (-2) /* Commands */
10:12:42 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161244&oldid=161243 * Hashibami * (+34) /* Commands */
10:16:28 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161245&oldid=161244 * Hashibami * (+681) /* Interpreter for Python */
10:17:14 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161246&oldid=161245 * Hashibami * (+4)
10:17:58 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161247&oldid=161246 * Hashibami * (+5)
10:21:05 <esolangs> [[Ku]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161248 * Shivani * (+8393) Created page with "{| class="wikitable" style="float:right; margin:0 0 1em 1em; width: 25em;" |+ Ku |- ! Paradigm(s) | poetic, imperative, stack-based |- ! Designed by | [[User:Shivani]] |- ! Created in | 2025 |- ! Memory system | stack-based |- ! Dimensions | one-dimensional |- ! Computationa
10:23:34 <esolangs> [[Ku]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161249&oldid=161248 * Shivani * (+0)
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11:14:37 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161250&oldid=161195 * Hashibami * (+46)
11:15:08 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161251&oldid=161250 * Hashibami * (+15) /* Projects */
11:15:35 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161252&oldid=161251 * Hashibami * (-14) /* Projects */
11:17:09 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161253&oldid=161227 * Hashibami * (+10)
11:17:46 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161254&oldid=161253 * Hashibami * (-1021) Replaced content with "none"
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11:18:42 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161257&oldid=161252 * Hashibami * (-13) /* Projects */
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11:39:38 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161258&oldid=161247 * Hashibami * (+1) /* Interpreter for Python */
11:42:43 <esolangs> [[User:Shivani]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161259&oldid=161238 * Shivani * (+24)
11:42:48 <FireFly> esolangs: can you elaborate on the calculus of constructions?
11:46:27 <esolangs> FireFly: The Calculus of Constructions (CoC) is a powerful mathematical framework for describing and manipulating data structures and logical relationships. It's based on the idea of "constructions" – functions that create new data structures from existing ones. CoC uses a system of "arrows" to represent functions and relationships, allowing for the...
11:46:27 <esolangs> creation of complex structures and the manipulation of data. It's a foundational concept in various fields, including logic programming, functional programming, and theoretical computer science.
11:46:50 <esolangs> [[Frequency]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161260 * Hashibami * (+0) Created blank page
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14:33:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161269&oldid=161187 * Pifrited * (+116) /* metoo */
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15:01:33 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161272&oldid=161174 * I am islptng * (-155) Bold.
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17:54:31 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161273&oldid=146540 * Hashibami * (+52) /* Proof */
18:23:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinational logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161274&oldid=147417 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+305)
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19:20:42 <esolangs> [[Zaddy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161275&oldid=160832 * Corbin * (+72) /* E-matching */ Bluelink.
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19:35:17 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161276&oldid=161211 * Ractangle * (-148) the first one already follows the PEP8 rules
19:37:10 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161277&oldid=154716 * Ractangle * (+65) /* "Examples" */
19:52:54 <esolangs> [[Ku]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161278&oldid=161249 * Shivani * (+10)
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20:46:51 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161281&oldid=161279 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Interpreter */ oh look, new interpreter upadate
20:47:12 <esolangs> [[Ku]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161282&oldid=161280 * Shivani * (-10)
20:47:45 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161283&oldid=161281 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Interpreter */
20:49:39 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161284&oldid=161283 * Ractangle * (-15) /* Interpreter */
20:51:57 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161285&oldid=161284 * Ractangle * (+77) /* computational class */
20:52:51 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161286&oldid=161285 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Interpreter */
20:53:29 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161287&oldid=161286 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Syntax */
20:56:18 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161288&oldid=161287 * Ractangle * (-49) /* Syntax */
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00:01:43 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161289&oldid=161268 * Pifrited * (+215) /* Examples */
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11:04:13 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161297&oldid=161293 * Pifrited * (+661) /* Examples */
11:15:20 <esolangs> [[Piet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161298&oldid=155900 * B jonas * (-51) rv https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Piet&diff=prev&oldid=155084 by JHSHernandez-ZBH 12:52, 4 April 2025
11:22:18 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161299&oldid=161297 * Pifrited * (+144) /* Truth-machine */
11:23:04 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161300&oldid=161299 * Pifrited * (+4) /* Truth-machine */
11:24:32 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161301&oldid=161300 * Pifrited * (-22) /* Truth-machine */ Reduce
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15:43:36 <korvo> Do Bubblegum, Malbolge, and other source-encrypted languages have native type theories? I think that the answer is "yes" but I'm open to discussion.
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18:44:30 <ais523> korvo: I think the answer might depend on the language
18:45:02 <ais523> e.g. Bubblegum is effectively Python from the type-theory point of view – you can (at least in theory) make the program valid by adding a comment and that has no type-theoretical impact
18:45:22 <ais523> whereas for Malbolge, the fact that the commands change when executed feels like it might be something that is part of a type theory
18:45:43 <ais523> in particular, which cycle a command belongs to is considered a very important aspect of Malbolge programming
18:46:04 <korvo> Sure, the native type theory (NTT?) knows what Bubblegum's ints are, because they're equivalent to Python's ints under the encryption. Encryption only makes it hard for us to compute whether programs are equivalent, but it doesn't change whether that equivalence exists.
18:46:24 <ais523> (but, commands can be overwritten in memory, moving them onto other cycles, and in practice usually are because most of the useful cycles aren't accessible from the source code)
18:46:47 <ais523> I think Bubblegum is more of a signed programming language than an encrypted programming language
18:47:13 <ais523> it is comparatively easy to determine whether a Bubblegum program would be interpreted as Python, and if it is, it is exactly equivalent to the Python program with the same source code
18:47:44 <ais523> but, it is difficult to find the right magic comment to make the interpreter treat it as Python rather than as raw compressed data to output
18:48:24 <ais523> A Pear Tree is also an interesting example – it's in the same area as Bubblegum, except that the task of finding the correct magic comment actually is computationally tractable
18:49:26 <ais523> (which was intentional – I've written quite a few A Pear Tree programs, but it would be difficult without having a chosen-prefix-preimage algorithm available)
18:51:33 <korvo> I don't think A Pear Tree is different from Bubblegum here. I mean, obviously it's got a different topology, but it *has* a topology.
18:52:01 <ais523> right, they're in the same category of languages, even though the applications are completely different
18:52:23 <ais523> A Pear Tree is designed to let you specify redundant versions of your program, so that it can still run correctly if some of them are damaged
18:52:34 <korvo> As usual, But Is It Art? is a bit of a question. Wang tiles have a NTT though, based on the idea that the *set* of Wang tiles has a topology of subsets, so maybe BIIA? also admits something where we consider the set of tiles and its subsets.
18:52:37 <ais523> (and even to react to the exact nature of the damage, if necessary)
18:53:16 <ais523> do languages like Deadfish have a native type theory? I'm guessing "yes, but it's degenerate"
18:53:18 <korvo> ais523: I suppose it's worth remembering that the NTT of a language might have nothing to do with the strategies that we use for encoding simple examples, or even for larger encodings like homomorphisms or compilation schemes.
18:54:23 <korvo> Yeah. I don't know *how* it degenerates offhand, but I can imagine that there are two equivalent Deadfish programs, and that's enough for a non-trivial NTT.
18:54:24 <ais523> BIIA? feels to me more like a language *backend* than a language itself, from the type-theoretical point of view
18:54:56 <ais523> you do have a type theory, but certain programming patterns give you a richer type theory
18:55:30 <korvo> Yeah. An NTT will always be dependently-typed, but maybe there aren't any interesting type constructors.
18:56:14 <ais523> for example, you can imagine a BIAA? program where all the commands are almost-rectangles whose sides are multiples of a particular constant, and you connect them together jigsaw-style by placing protusions on the sides that match recesses on the sides of other almost-rectangles
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18:56:34 <ais523> and in that case, the program is parametric over the shapes of the protusions
18:56:34 <korvo> Although NTT usually will at least have Hoare logic. The reason that Wang tiles and BIIA? are weird here is precisely because they don't admit a Hoare logic either.
18:57:20 <ais523> BIIA? with arbitrary shapes is much harder to reason about
18:57:51 <ais523> actually, I guess I am thinking about a compiler from Wang tiles to BIIA? – the compilation is clearly very easy but there are multiple equivalent ways to do it
18:58:19 <ais523> and I think I would want a way to abstract over the difference in details, *but* I am not sure that that abstraction would generalise to arbitrary BIIA? programs
18:59:55 <ais523> …and now I have an esolang idea: BIIA? but the corners aren't limited to 90° and the sides aren't limited to integers, and a program halts if it is unable to tile the plane
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19:01:42 <ais523> I suspect this is both a little harder to program in than BIIA? and substantially harder to implement, so there aren't any real advantages other than the aesthetics
19:01:44 <ais523> but that might be enough
19:02:37 <ais523> (I'm pretty sure it's at least TC, but am not sure it is computable, even if you require the side lengths and angles to be computable)
19:05:23 <korvo> I guess that it depends on what a language is. If a language is a collection of texts with some attached semantics, and semantics have some ordering or equivalence, then there's an underlying category or groupoid which leads to NTT.
19:05:41 <korvo> So escaping that means not having texts, not having semantics, or not having ordering or equivalence.
19:08:45 <korvo> For Wang tiles, consider a set of tiles that is TC and that also has two different subsets which are TC. Those subsets are non-trivially equivalent, so we get a groupoid. I think this applies to BIIA? as well. I have no idea about your new extension though.
19:09:53 <korvo> ...Wait, the equivalence might not be a bijection, so we get a category. Still works for NTT.
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19:58:25 <zzo38> I don't know what "native type theory" means
20:00:53 <korvo> It's a specific construction in category theory that assigns a dependent type theory to programming languages. This blog post is a pretty good introduction: https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2021/02/native_type_theory.html
20:02:05 <korvo> If the original language is a constructive dependently-typed theory already, then it *is* its own native type theory. That's the intuition. For languages like Python, type-like concepts like ints and lists are identifiable, and we can do Hoare logic over them.
20:10:08 <b_jonas> ais523: BIIA kind of also lets you encode redundant copies of the program so if one is damaged the program still works and the damaged shapes can't fit anywhere. except this doesn't work if the damage creates a small shape (or a few small shapes) that tile the plane, eg. a one-tile shape, either by adding a new shape or cutting off a small piece of an existing shape.
20:42:53 <fizzie> Meh, SendGrid is turning off their free tier (which I use for esolangs.org outgoing emails) in two weeks or so. Have to migrate to something else.
21:05:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161309&oldid=160767 * Hotcrystal0 * (+159)
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21:44:18 <esolangs> [[Neb's Art]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161310 * HecknTarnation * (+4366) Creation
21:44:46 <esolangs> [[User:HecknTarnation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161311&oldid=139642 * HecknTarnation * (+19)
21:46:15 <esolangs> [[Neb's Art]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161312&oldid=161310 * HecknTarnation * (+0) /* Resources */
21:49:03 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161313&oldid=161309 * Hotcrystal0 * (+134)
22:08:29 <fizzie> I used to just run an SMTP server in the old-fashioned way, but it became hard to get emails reliably delivered.
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08:29:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EiroWarn * New user account
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08:53:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161323&oldid=161237 * EiroWarn * (+177) /* I come to talk and put my first edit at Esolang:Introduce yourself. 13:30, 14 June 2025 (UTC) */
09:10:33 <esolangs> [[User:EiroWarn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161324 * EiroWarn * (+102) Created page with "I am an Esolang enthusiast and also a programming enthusiast. I currently haven't created an Esolang."
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10:09:57 <esolangs> [[Orthagonal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161325&oldid=161307 * Krolkrol * (+951)
10:15:18 <esolangs> [[Orthagonal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161326&oldid=161325 * Krolkrol * (+85)
10:23:39 <APic> Celebrate Confuflux! Hail Eris! 😇
10:23:39 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161327&oldid=161322 * Pifrited * (-151)
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12:30:01 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck is not turing complete but every time a word repeats it loops]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161328 * Tommyaweosme * (+8077) if you can read this without skipping anything then you are 1000% insane.
12:32:17 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck is not turing complete but every time a word repeats it loops]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161329&oldid=161328 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) fixing newline
12:44:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161330&oldid=161305 * Pifrited * (+118) /* Name */ new section
13:04:58 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161331&oldid=161314 * Hotcrystal0 * (+167)
13:06:01 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Idea]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161332 * Pifrited * (+104) .
13:06:37 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161333&oldid=161331 * Hotcrystal0 * (+99)
13:06:57 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161334&oldid=161333 * Hotcrystal0 * (+7)
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15:22:23 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161335&oldid=149482 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Hello World */
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15:34:29 <esolangs> [[GRPE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161336&oldid=106611 * Bil-joodusstudios * (+981) Rewrote computation class section
15:50:34 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161337&oldid=161058 * Tommyaweosme * (+247)
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17:41:53 <esolangs> [[Modiv]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161338&oldid=160592 * Krolkrol * (-7)
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20:28:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:PP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161339 * MijiGamin1 * (+518) added interpreter to talk
20:29:06 <esolangs> [[PP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161340&oldid=92520 * MijiGamin1 * (+13) added deadlink
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21:58:23 <esolangs> [[User:MijiGamin1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161341&oldid=161232 * MijiGamin1 * (+41) added to profile
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22:47:43 <esolangs> [[Chainlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161342 * BestCoder * (+4999) Created page with "= Chainlang Specification = Chainlang is a graph-based esolang where each ''link'' holds exactly one atomic instruction. Links are connected through explicit references, forming an execution graph that drives program logic. NOTE: I made an AI make this spec, don't
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00:06:27 <esolangs> [[Lifelang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161343&oldid=124552 * BestCoder * (+457)
00:44:36 <esolangs> [[Chainlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161344&oldid=161342 * Hotcrystal0 * (+53) Categories
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04:36:23 <esolangs> [[Putlines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161345&oldid=123935 * MijiGamin1 * (+0) "unnormal" is not a word
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07:57:44 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161346&oldid=151005 * Ractangle * (+16) /* Implementation */
07:58:20 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161347&oldid=161346 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Implementation */
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09:42:19 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161348&oldid=161347 * Ractangle * (+91)
09:43:02 <esolangs> [[LJAPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161349&oldid=161348 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Implementation */
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14:01:36 <esolangs> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161350&oldid=66565 * EiroWarn * (-18) /* Fibonacci Numbers: */ Fixed errors in the Fibonacci Numbers example code
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15:17:45 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161351&oldid=158729 * Hotcrystal0 * (+14)
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15:41:11 <korvo> https://diff.wikimedia.org/2025/07/15/introducing-wikivault-a-new-chapter-in-wikipedia-contributions-with-ai/ It just keeps fucking happening, doesn't it.
15:41:38 <korvo> I still think that we are failing to prevent our users from harm when we allow them to submit ChatGPT output to the wiki.
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17:59:04 <int-e> b_jonas: FWIW: all shape request sizes grow exponentially, but the random (MAM) shapes use a significantly lower base: https://paste.debian.net/1386189/ (this is obscured early on because the numbers are truncated to one or two decimal places)
18:00:04 <int-e> b_jonas: so you get somewhat uneven levels: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-500.jpg (the crystal MAM is the newest so lagging far behind)
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18:51:44 <b_jonas> int: the level numbers in those boxes are confusing. 38, 42, 45, 46, 46, 49, 49, 48, 87, 50.
18:52:57 <b_jonas> wait, are all ten of those series infinite?
19:23:14 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah, each tracks its own level. the "operator level" is the sum of all of them
19:24:19 <b_jonas> I see! Then I misunderstood you earlier, I thought there were only two independent infinite series of requested shapes.
19:24:56 <int-e> there are only two random ones, which are the most interesting to tackle
19:25:07 <b_jonas> This means that you don't lose time from latency, because you can alternate between series
19:25:23 <b_jonas> wait, the random ones are more interesting? why?
19:25:52 <int-e> because that's MAM territory
19:26:04 <b_jonas> I assumed the eight non-random ones were effectively random too (except in the first few dozen levels), just the same seeded sequence in every game, while the other two have different seeds in every map
19:26:09 <int-e> anyway I have two different MAMs
19:26:21 <b_jonas> what do the first eight series do then?
19:26:28 <int-e> No for the first 8 you just produce more and more of that one shape.
19:26:58 <b_jonas> oh, so those are like the three upgrade shapes plus the glue tape in Factorio 1
19:27:00 <int-e> They're like the upgrade shapes in shapes 1.
19:28:01 <b_jonas> is one of them train fuel?
19:28:18 <int-e> There's technically still something to upgrade but the next one is at level 588 and would bump the "shape multiplier" that's currently at 5 to 6. It's not relevant.
19:28:55 <int-e> There are no consumables at this difficulty. I think they have the blueprint thing on the next harder one. I don't think that there's anything for supporting infrastructure; it just runs.
19:29:47 <int-e> I did find an older blog post about their alternative game mode... the idea there is that you get, on the map, converters that take in some shape and produce a new shape type that you can't harvest anywhere else.
19:30:01 <int-e> So... that would be a consumable of sorts, I guess.
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19:31:49 <int-e> Anyway. You *can* play the "numbers go up" game and then you will be scaling up your factory. I have only done this in moderation for this playthrough. I'll idle the last two shapes up to 100 to see if that adds a new twist (I rather doubt it, but they did one at level 50). And then probably look at the more complex shapes. There's a hexagonal shape mode too.
19:33:31 <int-e> I suspect somebody will push this to level 1000; it should be within reach (based on what I have, and considering that it can probably be scaled up at least 8-fold and I still have less than 100h on this save file)
19:34:06 <int-e> (Or maybe somebody *has* pushed it to level 1000; I don't know.)
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19:37:56 <int-e> "it's not relevant" - obviously the shape factor helps; a factor 5 is worth 160 levels asymptotically. But it doesn't significantly change the doubling = 70 levels math.
19:41:22 <int-e> b_jonas: Anyway, i think that the latency is still relevant because the two random shapes are generated differently so it's easier to have two distinct MAMs for the types. But it's less relevant in the long run because the delivery times will go up and eventually dwarf the switchover time.
19:42:14 <int-e> Very much unlike shapes 1.
19:43:22 <b_jonas> int-e: well shapez 1 adds a new twist after a while, but it's not really a feature, rather the weird fps-related bugs and hard to predict speeds behave differently when your upgrade speeds are very high
19:45:32 <int-e> b_jonas: Right, I consider the latter a bug. I designed my MAMs for 10x speedup, never upgrading beyond that, for that reason.
19:47:00 <int-e> b_jonas: anyway, to give you an idea: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-first-mams.jpg -- type 1 MAM to the top, type 2 MAM to the left. There's a bunch of shared stuff but the final processing is different. Oh and the bottom two 3x3 platforms contain shape processing logic; you can send signals globally and I used that quite a lot.
19:48:48 <int-e> And they both saturate 2 belts in the end... but they also take up so much space that scaling them up as is would be painful.
19:51:04 <int-e> well, I spotted what's arguably a twist at level 80 of the crystal shape type
19:51:34 <int-e> (but it's not one that I need to change my design for)
19:53:09 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161352&oldid=161334 * Hotcrystal0 * (-536)
19:53:31 <int-e> b_jonas: I blame the fact that UPS becomes an issue in shapez 1 mostly on Javascript. It does become a design constraint. And I was annoyed when I realized this because I had pretty much finished an 8xMAM design only to realize that it would be slower than expected because of the reduced update rate.
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19:59:16 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161353&oldid=161352 * Hotcrystal0 * (+147)
20:05:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NOPE * New user account
20:32:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161354&oldid=161044 * Juanp32 * (+82) /* Commands */
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20:55:21 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/Esolang:Policy but every time a word repeats it loops]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161355 * Tommyaweosme * (+32551) Created page with "Esolang is mostly a wiki like any other but we do have some site specific policies which are summarized here Please see the help page for general information on editing and read the help page for gene
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00:48:46 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161356&oldid=161353 * Hotcrystal0 * (+308)
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02:30:08 <esolangs> [[Nested one input functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161357&oldid=160016 * BestCoder * (+54) /* One more thing */
03:54:50 <zzo38> I read in a book about a kind of logic that the value can be a set of booleans; NOT X is true iff X is false and false iff X is true; X AND Y is true if both are and false if at least one is; X OR Y is true if at least one is and false if both are. (So, I think law of excluded middle will not be valid with a kind of logic that is possible to assign values in this way.)
03:55:10 <zzo38> Other variants are possible, e.g. using a multiset instead of a set
03:55:19 <zzo38> (although, they did not mention this other variant in that book)
03:57:15 <korvo> Yes. Such sets are called "Boolean algebras", which is a painful name. I think of them as "CABAs", complete atomic Boolean algebras. For a set of labels S, its CABA is the function type S → 2 which sends each s in S to a Boolean value.
04:00:22 <korvo> It turns out that sets and CABAs are only equivalent with excluded middle. Otherwise there are CABAs which aren't dual to any particular set.
04:00:57 <zzo38> (If you are using multisets, then the value of X AND Y will be whichever is less true and more false, I think.)
04:01:06 <korvo> (Or, more technically, it turns out that power sets P(S) and CABAs S → 2 are *not* the same sort of thing without excluded middle.)
04:02:05 <korvo> Yeah. Multisets give free vector spaces over the integers Z, I think? Or something like Z-modules.
04:02:31 <korvo> And logic over vector spaces -- or spaces in general -- doesn't have to be Boolean.
04:04:26 <zzo38> With the original one from the book that I mentioned, you could perhaps add a set complement operator and then make up a variant of law of excluded middle which will use that, which will be true regardless of what values you assign to the symbols (in some cases it is false and true, but always it will be true whether or not it is also false).
04:05:32 <korvo> Yes. And any decent logic will have double-negation (X implies ~~X) and non-contradiction (it's not true that X & ~X) as theorems or axioms.
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05:09:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * User167809 * New user account
05:14:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161358&oldid=161323 * User167809 * (+267) Just my lil ol introduction
05:18:27 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161359&oldid=158830 * User167809 * (+176) Add YABAFOC (by me)
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09:41:35 <esolangs> [[Chainlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161360&oldid=161344 * PkmnQ * (-1) /* Symbol and Variable Handling */
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10:45:11 <esolangs> [[Chainlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161361&oldid=161360 * PkmnQ * (+48) /* Stack Manipulation */
10:45:45 <esolangs> [[Chainlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161362&oldid=161361 * PkmnQ * (-7) /* Stack Manipulation */
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14:53:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161363&oldid=161354 * Pifrited * (+1227) /* Commands */
14:56:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161364&oldid=161363 * Pifrited * (+3) Typo
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18:18:01 <b_jonas> uh… there might be an olist, but https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html lists the latest strips in a weird order, as in 1329, 1330, 1328, 1327, ... so I can't quite confirm yet
18:21:01 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1330.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
18:21:03 <b_jonas> I dont' know why the order is so weird
18:23:39 <Sgeo> b_jonas, I just posted about it in the forum
18:24:52 <Sgeo> Oh, other people mentioned it on Bluesky too
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19:16:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161365&oldid=161364 * Hotcrystal0 * (+85)
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01:10:19 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161366&oldid=161319 * Hotcrystal0 * (-253)
01:13:58 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161367&oldid=161366 * Hotcrystal0 * (+146)
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04:19:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zobie211 * New user account
04:28:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161368&oldid=161358 * Zobie211 * (+382)
04:30:38 <esolangs> [[User:Zobie211]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161369 * Zobie211 * (+124) Describing the joke lang I wish to archive. As of yet unnamed. Maybe Deep End?
04:31:24 <esolangs> [[User:Zobie211]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161370&oldid=161369 * Zobie211 * (+2)
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