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19:32:11 <jix> ihope_: ping
19:34:34 <jix> ihope_: has anyone started a golf or do you want to start one or are you asking for one?
19:34:51 <ihope_> I wanted to start one.
19:35:03 <ihope_> Should I just plop it on the message board?
19:35:04 <jix> ihope_: cool!
19:35:09 <jix> ihope_: on which?
19:35:20 <ihope_> The non-broken one. :-)
19:35:26 <ihope_> The anonymous one, that is.
19:35:28 <jix> the sf or the esolangs.org one?
19:35:53 <jix> you that sounds good
19:43:20 <jix> ihope_: do you highlight me if you are done writing it down?
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19:55:05 <jix> moin calamari
19:55:10 <ihope_> Okay, the BF golf thing has started.
19:55:18 <jix> ihope_: cool
19:56:46 <jix> ihope_: ok i think this time we have to write down a proof that the program does what it should
19:58:48 <jix> calamari: check the msg board
19:58:52 <calamari> oh yeah, I still need to send out the prize
19:59:14 <calamari> I don't think I will test the program, I just dont have the time to devote to it
19:59:27 <calamari> everyone thinks it works, so it probably does
20:03:46 <ihope_> Yay, Javascript! alert(alert(5))
20:04:08 <ihope_> More fun: alert(5+alert(3))
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20:31:26 <jix> ihope_: do you already have a solution to the golf?
20:31:50 <ihope_> +++++++++++++++++ (etc. etc.) +++++++.
20:32:08 <jix> is that legal?
20:32:20 <ihope_> Well, apart from not knowing the MD5 hash, yes.
20:32:35 <ihope_> If you can MD5 hash it, then it's perfectly legal.
20:32:47 <jix> ok add the knowledge of the md5 to the rules.. (or is it already there?)
20:33:12 <jix> oh right...
20:33:25 <ihope_> "Just post the MD5 hash of your program here along with the length of it."
20:33:58 <jix> i stopped reading the rules after nor may it accept input ;)
20:36:45 <ihope_> Hmm... were you going to feed Graham's number in manually? :-)
20:37:10 <jix> i stopped reading _after_
20:37:26 <jix> because in that moment i got an idea how to solve the problem
20:42:51 <ihope_> 2^^^2 = 2^^2^^2 = 2^^(2^2^2) = 2^^(2^4) = 2^^16 = 2^2^2^2^2^2^2^2^2^2^2^2
20:43:00 <ihope_> I'd say it takes a while.
20:43:54 <jix> you wouldn't be able to store that (ever)
20:44:20 <jix> that should be more than the number of particles in the universe
20:45:00 <ihope_> Why does everybody use the number of particles in the universe as the classic "pretty big number"?
20:45:33 <jix> ihope_: because you can't build a ram cell that has more particles
20:45:56 <ihope_> But why not, say, 3? That'd work about as good.
20:47:19 <jix> hmm wait you could store informations in the distance of two particles.. let's assume it can be any real number between 0 and 1<unit> one should be able to store infinite informations there
20:52:40 <calamari> so this is a bf variant that outputs a cell value as decimal ?
20:53:06 <ihope_> Not representations of numbers.
20:53:28 <calamari> you can't output a number, only a representation of one...
20:53:32 <ihope_> (You're talking about the BF golf, right?)
20:53:46 <jix> calamari: you can output a number
20:53:52 <calamari> so if I did +++. what does it output
20:54:12 <jix> but not the representation 3 of the number 3 only the number 3
20:54:22 <calamari> it outputs the number in decimal
20:54:25 <jix> calamari: no
20:54:44 <jix> calamari: no
20:54:48 <jix> no representation
20:54:50 <ihope_> The number 3 is not the numeral 3 nor the literal 3 nor the string 3...
20:55:21 <ihope_> Well, I never said I was going to run the BF programs.
20:55:42 <jix> calamari: it's maybe impossible to create such an interpreter but even if one could the program would never complete in the lifetime of the sun
21:13:21 <ihope_> Okay. ^ is exponentiation, ^^ is tetration, ^^^ is pentation.
21:13:33 <ihope_> 3^^^3 = 3^^3^^3 = 3^^(3^3^3)...
21:14:10 <ihope_> 3^^(3^3^3) = 3^^(3^27)
21:14:32 <ihope_> 3^^(3^27) = 3^^7625597484987
21:14:52 <ihope_> 3^^7625597484987 is big.
21:16:01 <jix> you don't need 3^^^3
21:16:54 <ihope_> 3^^3 = 3^3^3 = 3^27 = 7625597484987
21:24:37 <jix> i wrote my program in a highlevel language that should be easy to transform into brainfuck and added a "proof" in the comments
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22:03:11 <Aardwolf> I wonder when they'll finally define tetration for reals :)
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05:36:23 <puzzlet> tetration for reals? it is well defined
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05:39:23 <puzzlet> but it exists! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration#Extension_to_real_numbers
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07:09:32 <GregorR> I'm writing a language for a MUD engine that I'm totally not working on *cough*
07:09:43 <GregorR> Anyway, it's coming out more awful than some esoteric languages.
07:10:00 <GregorR> set ["p_".$i."_ok"] to true
07:10:00 <GregorR> foreach i in "above at behind below from in inside into on onto to under upon"
07:10:00 <GregorR> if [$p_($i) !?= "" & !$p_($i)_ok]
07:10:00 <GregorR> echo ["How do you do that ".$i." something?"] to $~
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11:03:12 <GregorR> Hey nooga, want to give your opinion on a bit of nasty syntax of mine?
11:05:10 <GregorR> echo ["\W" , %s_name , "\N\n" , %s_desc , "\n"] to $user
11:05:12 <GregorR> echo ["\R" , $($i).s_name , " is here.\N"] to $user
11:05:18 <GregorR> echo ["\BThere is a " , @($i).s_name , " here.\N"] to $user
11:05:22 <GregorR> Unfortunately, this is not supposed to be esoteric :(
11:07:51 <GregorR> $ = beings, % = rooms, @ = objects :P
11:08:58 <jix> GregorR: what's that?
11:09:30 <GregorR> About eight months ago I wrote a large chunk of a MUD engine. Recently I trudged it up and continued working on it.
11:09:37 <GregorR> That's an example of its language.
11:09:45 <jix> looks awfull
11:10:04 <GregorR> What looks PARTICULARLY awful :P
11:10:41 <jix> foreend why foreend instead of just end... the interpreter should KNOW it's in a for loop
11:11:00 <GregorR> That was quite possibly the most minor thing you could have pointed out XD
11:11:43 <jix> and i don't like the [] they are hard to type on a de keyboard
11:12:24 <GregorR> On a DE keyboard you doof :P
11:12:36 <jix> depends on the OS
11:12:48 <jix> on windows they are on alt-gr 8 and 9
11:12:58 <jix> on mac os they are on alt 5 and 6
11:13:18 <GregorR> We've keys just for them over here :P
11:13:20 <nooga> im poland we use us keyboards
11:13:25 <nooga> and they're the best
11:13:53 <GregorR> Well, thank you jix for pointing out the two least important problems with my code XD
11:14:01 <nooga> oh, GregorR, it resembles bash
11:14:08 <jix> GregorR: couldn't you use öä instead of [] we have keys for them
11:14:15 <nooga> bash combined with infant-basic
11:14:22 <GregorR> jix: ö is alt-o-" for me XP
11:14:29 <jix> GregorR: replace foreend with hcaerof
11:14:50 <nooga> jus end would be nice
11:15:09 <nooga> no, no indentation
11:15:13 <GregorR> I don't like when languages make indentation significant.
11:15:15 <nooga> it will look pythony
11:15:23 <jix> (my yay was about end not indention)
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11:15:32 <GregorR> That is quite seriosly the ONLY ---
11:15:38 <jix> idention is stupid
11:15:42 <GregorR> ... thing I dislike about python >_>
11:15:59 <jix> and you have to put self on the argument list right?
11:16:00 <GregorR> OK, I'm going to sleep. Tomorrow I'll make them all 'end'
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17:24:24 <jix> wait that's a lie
17:24:35 <jix> at least you and me are here...
17:25:33 <nooga> i'm intensively thinking about massive eso language :D
17:25:57 <nooga> when i sqy massive i think about very concentrated and cryptic syntax
17:27:53 <jix> mix symbol syntax and text syntax
17:28:03 <jix> and prefix postfix infix
17:28:20 <jix> and case sensitive and case insensitive
17:28:40 <jix> and base 10 base 16 and roman numerals
17:29:13 <jix> and codeflow upwards and downwards
17:29:37 <jix> (like in a while loop the code is executed in reverse order than normal.. each nesting level reverses code flow...)
17:29:37 <nooga> i thought about IDs and keywords which allow rhymes
17:30:15 <nooga> i mean: 'if' is same as 'thief' or 'beef' and 'cute' == 'flute' etc.
17:30:24 <nooga> i think i know how to implement it
17:30:36 <jix> if is pronounced short thief long
17:30:39 <jix> they don't rhyme
17:31:48 <nooga> ah well... i think they rhyme
17:56:38 <nooga> http://stainworks.com/images/ja2.jpg look at him!?
17:56:44 <nooga> he must be a nerd :>
18:04:26 <jix> You have long hair?
18:04:47 <jix> cool me too!
18:04:54 <jix> (and GregorR too)
18:07:58 <nooga> darkish l33t guys hihieheh
18:08:21 <nooga> http://www.stainworks.com/images/myjpg.jpg
18:08:28 <nooga> tahts: me, my sis, my brother
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23:04:13 <ihope> Mode ##everything +b *!*@* by ihope
23:06:13 * ihope wonders if ChanServ is still in there
23:06:38 <ihope> Well, I'm still banned, so he/she probably is.
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21:24:08 <SimonRC> Did anyone read the news from lilo?
21:24:51 <SimonRC> Tor has been 84NX0r13zer3d!
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00:04:42 <ihope> GregorR is in development
00:05:22 <ihope> I never would have guessed...
00:05:50 <ihope> That's what happens when you take things out of context. "A FCKeditor plugin by GregorR is in development."
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00:43:47 <ihope> The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
00:56:28 <ihope> The quick brown fox doesn't jump over the lazy dog.
01:04:29 <ihope> the quiCk brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
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07:39:04 <nooga> [08:25] <nooga> where's gregor?
07:39:04 <nooga> [08:33] * GregorR has joined #esoteric
07:39:42 <GregorR> My network is being crappy.
07:40:48 <nooga> have you seen the photo of the ultimate nerd?
07:53:28 <nooga> http://stainworks.com/images/ja2.jpg
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08:06:04 <nooga> so, do you thik he might be l33t? GregorR?
08:06:32 <GregorR> Hoping that it's a picture of you or something, I'll say "He looks like a total dork."
08:08:45 <GregorR> Because you're just like that.
08:09:45 <nooga> but i've got long hair
08:10:32 <nooga> okay, i'll go and byu red hat hehed
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19:35:52 <nooga> haj maj frriendz from foregin kauntrees
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07:13:38 <GregorR> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooga
07:15:40 <nooga> GregorR: what's with your c2bf?
07:16:39 <GregorR> My wheel o' attention hasn't turned back to it yet.
07:17:01 <GregorR> DirectNet, OBLISK, C2BF, IDIA, random projects, too many things to work on X-P
07:24:35 <GregorR> That list seems awfully sparse 8-X
07:25:32 <calamari> GregorR: I started a text file to keep track of my projects
07:25:45 <GregorR> I use nagging to keep track.
07:25:51 <GregorR> If nobody nags me about it, it's probably not very important.
07:26:11 <calamari> what about personal interest projects
07:26:33 <GregorR> That's how OBLISK stays alive XD
07:26:37 <GregorR> But I prefer external nagging.
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07:30:10 <nooga> "haha cherade you are..."
07:36:34 <nooga> are u coding right now? ;p
07:39:42 <nooga> https://www.osmosian.com/
07:40:14 <nooga> english language compiler hahaha, looks awfullllll
07:42:08 <nooga> and it's propetiary
07:45:13 <nooga> this is some kind of a joke
07:51:53 <GregorR> The title suggests that it is.
07:51:59 <GregorR> "The Osmosian Order of Plain English Programmers"
07:55:12 <nooga> c2bf will be cool when finished
07:56:37 <nooga> someone should kick your "wheel o' attention"
07:56:54 <nooga> or try to develop c2bf by himself
07:59:11 <calamari> btw, did you ever move c2bf off to its own project page?
07:59:25 <GregorR> They rejected the project :(
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08:02:00 <nooga> but it's on sourceforge
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17:18:40 <jix> moin noogc
17:22:24 <nooga> have you finished rhotor interpreter in C?
17:22:51 <jix> i never started one
17:23:25 <nooga> i have problem with implementing lambda lifter
17:29:13 <jix> solve them ;)
17:30:04 <nooga> well... what are you coding atm jix?
17:30:31 <jix> i'm writing a ...
17:30:33 <jix> (word missing)
17:31:01 <jix> a report of something that isn't in my dictionary for school
17:32:10 <jix> using latex
17:32:36 <jix> LaTeX the typesetting system
17:34:16 <nooga> [18:30] <jix> a report of something that isn't in my dictionary for school
17:34:25 <jix> i don't know the word
17:34:30 <jix> and it isn't in my dictionary
17:35:06 <jix> i work in a company for 2 weeks
17:35:17 <jix> thats cool.. the bad thing is i have to write an report about it
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17:39:20 <ihope> We have a positive integer A such that A = (B^2 - C^2) for positive integers B and C. Given A, find possible B and C.
17:39:24 <nooga> you work for a company?
17:39:47 <sp3tt> I doubt that is always possible.
17:40:42 <jix> i'm going to school
17:41:05 <jix> but in grade 9 or 10 we work in a company for 2 weeks
17:41:36 <ihope> sp3tt: if A = (B^2 - C^2), it is possible to find B and C...
17:41:59 <sp3tt> It is possible for all odd A, but for all even?
17:42:02 <ihope> I didn't say for all A.
17:42:13 <ihope> It is not possible for even A as far as I know.
17:42:20 <nooga> jix: omfg, i wish i had the same here
17:42:30 <sp3tt> Not for all even A, but possibly for some.
17:42:43 <sp3tt> Sum(0..n,2n+1)=n^2.
17:43:11 <sp3tt> 1+3=4, 1+3+5=9,1+3+5+7=16 and so on....
17:43:41 <sp3tt> So it always possible to find two perfect squares with difference 2k+1, k \in N.
17:44:15 <ihope> Okay. I'm looking for an efficient algorithm to find B and C.
17:44:44 <sp3tt> Well, for odd A that would be trivial.
17:44:58 <ihope> How is it done, then?
17:45:25 <sp3tt> A-1, A-2. For example, 3 = 2^2 - 1^2.
17:46:29 <ihope> Okay. B - C cannot be 1.
17:47:12 <sp3tt> (a-1)^2-(a-2)^2=a^2-2a+1-(a^2-4a+1)=2a... o.O
17:47:52 <sp3tt> I must be ignoring something.
17:47:52 <jix> ihope: and C - B?
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17:47:57 <sp3tt> Aye, correct. Typo.
17:48:02 <ihope> jix: must not be -1 :-)
17:48:28 <jix> ihope: well if C - B is 1 it's trivial
17:48:59 <ihope> If C - B were positive, then B - C would be negative...
17:49:23 <ihope> Okay. C - B must be negative, just as B + C must be positive.
17:53:09 <ihope> Assume that A, B and C are positive integers, that A = (B^2 - C^2), and that B - C > 1. Given A, find B and C.
17:59:28 <ihope> If you find an efficient solution to that, let me know so I can tell you how to collect the $605,000.
18:00:18 <ihope> "Efficient" meaning "feasibly applicable to A with hundreds of decimal digits".
18:09:17 <jix> i can assume that A is representable using B^2-C^2 ? or do i have to test it
18:33:17 <ihope> Yes, A will always be representable by (B^2 - C^2).
18:33:49 <ihope> Now, it turns out that the whole reason for inventing this problem is futile...
18:35:23 <ihope> A = (B^2 - C^2) = (B - C)(B + C) = A. I was trying to devise an efficient way to factor A.
18:35:49 <ihope> However, finding B and C seems to itself involve factoring A.
18:36:52 <jix> rsa challenge?
18:38:02 <jix> yeah and the sum of the open challenges is 605.000
18:38:39 <jix> but if you're able to fake rsa signatures you'd be able to get a lot more money...
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18:59:23 <ihope> You know, I think an Unlambda interpreter would be MUCH easier to write in continuation passing style.
18:59:34 <ihope> Eh, that is, easier.
19:16:55 <ihope> So... data Unlambda = Unlambda (Unlambda -> Cont String Unlambda)
19:18:24 <ihope> Okay, defining .x with that is giving me a headache already.
19:19:36 <ihope> data Unlambda = Unlambda (Unlambda -> (Unlambda -> String) -> String)
19:20:21 <ihope> output x = Unlambda \y z -> x : z y
19:22:29 <ihope> output x = Unlambda (\y -> Const (\z -> x : z y))
19:28:23 <ihope> Okay, now the other ones...
19:28:57 <ihope> Let's try id using the second definition.
19:29:24 <ihope> id = Unlambda (\x y -> y x) -- easy
19:29:44 <ihope> With the first: id = Unlambda (\x -> Cont (\y -> y x))
19:33:28 <ihope> Note to self: do not terminate Acrobat while Firefox has a PDF tab open.
19:36:47 <calamari> lol... been mailing my shell provider for weeks to cancel the old account, no response. Create a 1 GB file in my account (my limit), immediate response.. cancelled today
19:38:42 <ihope> Now, it seems I did that one definition wrong...
19:38:58 <ihope> output x = Unlambda (\y -> Cont (\z -> z y ++ [x]))
19:43:20 <SimonRC> You can find a number as the difference of two positive squares for all positive integers except powers of two
19:43:39 <SimonRC> I wa thinking of triangular numbers
19:44:43 <calamari> hmm, 4 is somewhat triangular depnding on how it's written ;)
19:47:48 <ihope> 4 is a tetrahedral number.
19:48:11 <ihope> And, indeed, it's a right triangular number...
19:49:25 <calamari> of course some 4's have the open top, so those aren't triangular 4's :)
19:51:15 <ihope> Now, let's see here...
19:52:43 <SimonRC> Actually, I think that damn stupid Osmosian thing would fail even if it wasn't a pile of bullshit, as it is not very open.
19:52:55 <SimonRC> No on-line specs, for example.
19:53:08 <ihope> Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook? Ook! Ook? Ook?
19:53:47 <ihope> EgoBot commands don't work without EgoBot.
19:54:00 * SimonRC attempts to remember his Ook commands.
19:54:12 <SimonRC> ihope: I knew that, but I though egobot might be here
19:55:27 <ihope> Since NOTICE got corrupted, what can we do so that bots won't talk to each other?
19:56:15 <SimonRC> have them check on anothers' names?
19:56:28 <SimonRC> anyway, what's wrong with NOTICE?
19:56:59 <ihope> But some clients freak out when they recieve notices.
19:57:35 <SimonRC> ihope: in that case, people should Get A Real Client.
19:58:03 * SimonRC begins to suspect that calamari in fact *can't* see notices.
19:58:20 <calamari> Received a CTCP VERSION from ihope
19:58:33 <ihope> You can see CTCP, it seems...
19:58:36 <SimonRC> calamari: okay: repeat after me:
19:59:04 <calamari> wasn't paying attention, hahaha
19:59:32 <SimonRC> calamari: okay, yours works
19:59:56 <SimonRC> personal notices appear in my status window, but channel notices in my channel window :-S
20:00:00 <calamari> running xchat 2.6.1 in case that helps with your remote exploit attempts
20:00:33 <calamari> yeah, I see the notices here in the channel window
20:01:33 <ihope> Yeah, it seems to pop up in whatever tab I'm in at the time.
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20:05:20 <ihope> You're not talking about the tunes.org logs, are you?
20:05:45 <calamari> yeah, why? and besides I'm kidding around
20:07:03 <ihope> tunes.org logs notices...
20:07:08 <calamari> cmeme seems to notice, tunes does
20:08:17 <ihope> Anyway, SimonRC: you're saying that bots that talk should always have "bot" in their names, and should never reply to things said by those bots?
20:10:00 <ihope> That is, of course, bot, Bot, bOt, BOt, boT, BoT, bOT or BOT...
20:10:50 -!- calamari has changed nick to calaBot.
20:11:28 -!- ihope has changed nick to ihopeBot.
20:11:42 <ihopeBot> There, now I can't reply to anything calaBot says.
20:12:33 -!- ihopeBot has changed nick to ihope.
20:12:45 <ihope> Okay, that was scary.
20:12:48 -!- calaBot has changed nick to calamari.
20:13:17 <calamari> did you just get the feeling you were taken over by a machine intelligence?
20:13:57 <ihope> Having a longer nick than normal, though... it was just scary.
20:15:00 <calamari> and if you go shorter, than you turn into a pancake chain
20:19:01 -!- ihope has changed nick to i|.
20:19:11 <i|> Now I have a shorter nick.
20:19:33 <i|> Oh, I get it. IHOP.
20:19:57 <i|> I was thinking pancakes chained together... into a chain...
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20:26:09 <i|> Those nicks are taken already...
20:26:20 <calamari> that's why I changed so quickly
20:28:38 <i|> Okay. It seems nicks can only start with [, ], { and }.
20:29:33 <i|> It seems that in proportional fonts, < and > are each about as wide as this new nick...
20:29:37 * i| registers it
20:30:49 <lament> who uses IRC with a proportional font?
20:31:32 <calamari> but I still use the old console fonts, so I'm a freak :(
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21:25:42 <jix> you can find A = B^2-C^2 for all A that has two odd prime factors
21:26:12 <jix> or two even prime factors
21:28:27 <jix> A B and C are positive integers and some other condition
21:29:13 <jix> wait no ... ignore me..
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02:38:05 <i|> A = B^2 - C^2 for nonnegative integers B and C if and only if A mod 4 /= 1.
02:40:47 <i|> Let's grab a number out of thin air, then...
02:41:16 <i|> So our number is 18723.
02:42:25 <i|> 18723 / 3 = 6241.
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02:43:34 <i|> Because I'm lazy, I guess I'll use this heavy duty prime thingy.
02:44:54 <i|> Who would have guessed? 18723 = 3 * 79 * 79.
02:46:42 <i|> So 18723 = 79 * 237.
02:47:40 <i|> The average of these is 158 and the distance from the average to each number is 79.
02:48:14 <i|> Therefore 18723 = (158 - 79)(158 + 79) = (158^2 - 79^2).
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03:10:23 <i|> I don't think IDTIIASDA is a self-dependent acronym.
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03:12:19 <ihope> You know, I'd like the NICK command to have a message thing associated with it.
03:12:37 <ihope> Like /nick ihope It's not easy being i|.
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03:59:50 <ihope> Hmm, Haskell's readsPrec is nice. Let's see here...
04:02:08 <ihope> readsPrec _ ('`':xs) = do {(func, interm) <- readsPrec 0 xs; (param, remains) <- readsPrec 0 interm; return (apply func param, remains)}
04:02:52 <ihope> readsPrec _ ('.':c:xs) = [(output c, xs)]
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16:29:09 * SimonRC thinks of a cunning plan to get free photocopying credits.
16:29:28 <SimonRC> Create poster with this hidden on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation
16:29:56 <SimonRC> Complain insanely when photocopying shop won't copy it for you.
16:30:14 <SimonRC> Get given free photocopying credits as compesation.
16:40:01 <lament> sue the shop if they do manage to photocopy it
16:45:17 <lament> you could claim they're secretly counterfeiting money or something
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17:17:37 <twobitsprite> does anyone know if the linuyux program "dc" is turing complete or not? It's only form of flow control that I see is the ability to execute macros dependant on the comparison of numbers..
17:30:16 <SimonRC> actually, three infinite-precision integers are turing-complete, if you have +_*/%
17:30:54 <SimonRC> you can use them as a turing machine tape, as long as you can repeat operations
17:48:24 <jix> SimonRC: one if you have * / and %
18:24:01 <twobitsprite> and yes, I think you can pull off recursive macros because macros exist on the stack, and dc has a duplicate operation, so when calling a macro you can dup it first, call it, and the macro can then dup-call itself...
18:25:24 <twobitsprite> (I can't seem to keep up with IRC lingo no matter how much time I spend on here... :P)
18:30:40 <twobitsprite> maybe I'll trying writing a bf compiler which targets dc...
18:31:15 <SimonRC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_slang
18:31:37 <SimonRC> 2 big numbers are a pair of stacks.
18:33:04 <SimonRC> each bignum is a stack, and two stacks make a turing machine tape.
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23:51:04 <GregorR> I've rediscovered that I suck at making MUD areas.
23:51:29 <GregorR> Had forgotten that ... and now, here I am, going "Why can't I think of anything ... oh yeah, that's right, because I suck."
23:52:45 <calamari> GregorR: because you know what you should instead be working on c2bf and its gnawing at you, distracting you from your current task
23:53:15 <GregorR> Then let's trade. I'll work on C2BF for a while, and you make me a MUD realm.
23:53:25 <GregorR> Just the design for it, I need to implement it myself since I'm writing the engine X-P
23:54:06 <GregorR> I'll be grading you on it, and it will total as 15% of your grade for the class.
23:54:12 <GregorR> And there is no curve on this assignment.
23:54:25 <calamari> one of our options in the OO design class was a MUD
23:54:35 <calamari> we chose a battleship clone tho
23:54:54 <GregorR> See, I'm just writing a MUD engine for no reason XD
23:55:19 <calamari> oh yeah you don't have that in C++ ;)
23:56:09 <calamari> I was messing around with PESOIX again yesterday
23:56:38 <calamari> I'm not sure it is implementable for use with a premade interpreter
23:56:55 <calamari> the blocking issues are messing it all up
23:57:12 <GregorR> Yeah, that's probably a difficult problem to solve ...
23:58:23 <calamari> I think I can do it if they flush the output tho
23:58:46 <GregorR> If it doesn't flush the output, it's not a very good implementation 8-X
23:59:06 <calamari> I could load it with LD_PRELOAD
23:59:22 <GregorR> And force all I/O to be unbuffered?
00:00:19 <calamari> would probably screw up something else like netcat tho
00:01:07 <calamari> speaking of netcat.. how are you using it? netcat < blah > blah ?
00:02:13 <calamari> I mean for capturing program i/o
00:03:04 <GregorR> -e, --exec=PROGRAM program to exec after connect
00:03:22 <calamari> so netcat is pulling this off then
00:03:53 <calamari> so that means it should be possible
00:04:42 <GregorR> It probably just does the right dup2's, I don't know whether it messes with the buffering ...
00:05:05 <GregorR> In fact, I doubt severely that it does.
00:05:28 <calamari> well it works good enough to wrap the interpreters and that's all I need
00:07:46 <GregorR> ... I don't wrap any interpreter in netcat ...
00:08:25 <calamari> how is egobot handling program I/O ?
00:08:41 <GregorR> pipes, dup2'd into stdin and stdout.
00:11:53 <calamari> ahh GPL.. so I can lift large sections of your code at will :)
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00:13:46 <GregorR> signal 14 = alarm, it does an output every 1.5 (?) seconds and uses alarm() to manage that.
00:13:53 <GregorR> But that's not really the code you want.
00:13:57 <GregorR> The code you want is probably in proc.*
00:14:22 <calamari> well I think I found one thing I want
00:14:24 <calamari> if (fcntl(0, F_SETFL, O_NONBLOCK) == -1) { perror("fcntl"); exit(1); }
00:16:58 <calamari> ahh, you're doing that on the pipe too
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00:23:43 <calamari> dup2(2, 3); // what does this do ?
00:24:26 <GregorR> Did I seriously do that ...?
00:24:50 <calamari> maybe thats why it is crashing? :)
00:25:05 <GregorR> 2 is stderr, I copied it to 3 to preserve it.
00:25:14 <calamari> what if something else was using 3
00:25:16 <GregorR> That's still nae good though >_O
00:25:25 <GregorR> Yeah, I'm wondering why I thought that was wise <_<
00:26:25 <GregorR> AFAICT, it's not even being used 8-X
00:26:31 <GregorR> Well that's just plain silly.
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00:41:39 <calamari> GregorR: if (pipe(i) == -1) { perror("pipe"); exit(1); } is this line using some kind of c++ magic?
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00:56:05 <calamari> GregorR: where is the part of the program that you intercept a programs output and make it safe?
00:59:39 <calamari> argh.. you're buffering the output and just dealing with it in those 1.5sec intervals
01:03:32 <calamari> say that the interpreter wants input (,) ..how is that handled?
01:04:25 <calamari> does it just block on the pipe?
01:05:06 <calamari> and you put data into the pipe when it is given?
01:05:26 <calamari> hmm, why can't I do the same thing?
01:06:43 <calamari> hmm, where is it putting the input data into the pipe? I don't see it
01:08:46 <calamari> hmm I guess the difference here is that the user types a command that egobot receives, saying "here is input".. but unix doesn't do that
01:09:29 <calamari> I suppose I could fork again and just wait on input
01:15:06 <calamari> odds of a concurrency problem are rapidly approaching 1
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12:16:01 <SimonRC> Sorry about my connection earlier.
12:16:02 <SimonRC> The whole Uni was dropping off the net.
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14:58:10 <puzzlet> how do you pronounce "quine"?
15:26:49 <ZeroOne> http://www.auralgasms.com/default.aspx?BandID=jodyq a person called Jody Quine pronounces her name so that it rhymes with "wine"
15:27:17 <ZeroOne> and that's how I would've done it
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22:42:44 <jix> moin nooga
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04:12:41 <GregorR> Wow, my network actually blocked IRC.
04:12:48 <GregorR> That's a new low on the idiocy scale.
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04:14:15 <Test> Whaaaaaaaa......
04:14:38 <Test> It works with telnet O_O
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23:25:55 <i|> Hmm... so how would I write an Unlambda program? ;-)
23:26:23 <i|> I suppose CPS is the way to go.
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23:28:37 <i|_> That was fun...
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00:07:20 <i|> Now, the problem is building that list with CPS.
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07:46:00 <GregorR> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...............ooooooooooooga!
07:57:47 * calamari spent all day creating a replacement unlink that moves files.. after deleting some that I didn't want to
07:58:01 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=ubuntu
07:58:52 <calamari> basically a trash for the shell
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08:03:10 <GregorR> You do realize that such things already exist?
08:03:26 <nooga> well, there's kubuntu in my school (i gue ss it's a ubuntu with kde) it sucks alot
08:03:33 <nooga> theres even no gcc in it!
08:04:11 * GregorR does a quick freshmeat search, as he's sure he's seen such things.
08:04:55 <calamari> and if they do exist, then it's sad that they aren't put in place by default
08:05:11 <GregorR> http://freshmeat.net/projects/trashcan/
08:05:21 <GregorR> http://freshmeat.net/projects/delsafe/
08:05:47 <GregorR> http://freshmeat.net/projects/litetrash/
08:06:05 <GregorR> Man, those were hard to find -_-''
08:06:22 <GregorR> Crup, I need to go to sleep, work in the morning O_O
08:06:40 <nooga> we've got morning here
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20:38:36 <SimonRC> (standard music formats for games' music)++
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14:57:17 <SimonRC> There was a minor internet glitch about 16:00 UTC.
14:57:20 <SimonRC> I got this from comparing: http://tinyurl.com/k36n8 http://tinyurl.com/fmaa3 http://tinyurl.com/f016
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16:19:50 <nooga> look what my brother did
16:19:53 <nooga> http://stainworks.com/learn_rb.jpg :D
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21:23:21 <lament> arranging a bach chorale for piano is hard.
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21:24:23 <lament> there's just too much stuff
21:24:32 <lament> i will have to leave something out
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22:45:13 <SimonRC> Are you one of teh American people on this channel?
22:49:08 * SimonRC has been pondering that the English measurement system is crazy.
22:49:41 <SimonRC> Distances on signs are in miles, speeds in mph, and fuel consumption in mpg
22:50:22 <SimonRC> but maps are in metric sizes
22:51:05 <SimonRC> I measure my height in feet and inches, but my weight in kilos
22:51:53 <SimonRC> scientists sometimes use metric, but sometimes use domain-specific units.
22:53:05 <SimonRC> electrical enginers use amps, volts, joules, etc, but measure the speed of light as 1foot/nanosecond
22:53:53 <SimonRC> oh, yes, and chip density in transistors/sqin
22:54:58 <SimonRC> eggs still come in dozens, as do baked good sometimes, though a dozen is 13 there, not 12
23:35:32 <lament> _who_ exactly measures the speed of light as 1 foot/nanosecond?
23:35:51 <lament> dozen is not a unit of measurement by the way, it's just 12
23:55:33 <jix> the german measurement system is sane
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06:07:23 <lament> what's the german measurement system?
06:08:50 <GregorR> Umm, don't they use metric there like everybody else? (except for the US, but those morons don't count)
06:32:05 <calamari> "those morons".. you are an American, so you meant "us morons" ;)
06:33:06 * calamari sends GregorR to gitmo.. must be a terrorist
06:34:59 <GregorR> Yeah, I'm from the US, but I try to subdue that information :P
06:38:21 <calamari> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Camp_x-ray_detainees.jpg/251px-Camp_x-ray_detainees.jpg
06:38:35 * calamari tries to pick out GregorR based on the hat he would wear
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23:35:47 <calamari> but, hopefully it'll pay off.. want to get hired on at IBM
23:37:09 * calamari decides against mentioning any esolangs or esolang projects :P
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00:27:03 <jix> calamari: just don't call it esoteric
00:27:23 <jix> call it.. experimental programming language research
00:29:35 <jix> OH you really wan't to get hired.. well then it's better to not even think about the possibility of writing a single char about it
00:30:24 <ihope_> Slow down, guys. I can't keep up.
00:30:37 <jix> but if you substitute 'h' with 'f' i would write "i spend all of my time doing useless esoteric crap"
00:31:09 <ihope_> 12 messages in 17 hours!
00:31:35 <jix> ihope_: you fear the high internet costs?
00:31:49 <jix> you know this is oversea chat very expensive...
00:32:04 <ihope_> The fewer characters, the better.
00:32:09 <lament> so.... what's the weather like?
00:32:09 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to i|.
00:32:21 <jix> it's night
00:32:21 <i|> I can't afford to use such a long nick as "ihope".
00:32:29 <lament> not raining at the moment, although it did earlier in the day
00:32:39 <lament> pretty crappy weather :(
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00:33:55 * jix goes to bed
00:34:05 <jix> g'night everyone
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00:35:22 <i|> CTCP EGOBOT
00:35:49 <GregorR> CTCP I-CANT-LOG-STUFF-IN-:'(
00:36:34 -!- EgoBot has joined.
00:36:47 <i|> CTCP THANKS
00:36:47 <GregorR> CTCP THERE YOU COMPLAINER X-P
01:02:31 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
01:02:33 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda
01:02:38 <i|> !bf_txtgen +
01:02:41 <EgoBot> sablevm: cannot create vm
01:04:13 <i|> !unlambda `
01:04:15 <EgoBot> ./unlambda/unlambda: file ./tmp/egobot.aOGOVY: parse error
01:04:33 <i|> !unlambda `.fi.o.o
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00:11:57 <ihope> It's eating up my bandwidth...
00:12:06 <ihope> By the way, before you came in, the last three things said here were "E?bCretn", "640", and "2897"
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01:50:56 <ihope> My grandfather says he can play one instrument: the radio.
01:56:10 <lament> then he probably can't help me with scale fingerings.
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13:39:33 <SimonRC> GregorR: YANI for EgoBot: the !tell command.
13:40:13 <SimonRC> so I could say "!tell calamari I am looking for a summer job too."
13:41:02 <SimonRC> and when calamari appeared, EgoBot would say: `calamari, SimonRC says: "I am looking for a summer job too."'
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14:49:49 <GregorR> That'd only work in the rare condition that EgoBot has a more persistent connection than calamari >_O
15:26:31 <SimonRC> well, it has a more persistant connection than some people around here.
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16:13:29 <GregorR> 05:39:09 <SimonRC> GregorR: YANI for EgoBot: the !tell command.
16:13:29 <GregorR> 05:39:49 <SimonRC> so I could say "!tell calamari I am looking for a summer job too."
16:13:29 <GregorR> 05:40:39 <SimonRC> and when calamari appeared, EgoBot would say: `calamari, SimonRC says: "I am looking for a summer job too."'
16:13:38 <GregorR> There, I just implemented the IRP version of that command.
16:14:31 <calamari> GregorR: guess who else lives in Portland?
16:24:13 <calamari> openoffice's export to pdf works surprisingly well
16:25:14 <calamari> I guess it has its own font system
16:26:29 <calamari> oh, I see.. each character is stored as an image
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18:35:21 <GregorR> Every time calamari asks a favor of me, he leaves before I can reply :P
22:58:47 <GregorR> Since we're all males in here, probably most of us know of this phenomenon (although some may not know it by this name). So, my question is: Is the order of urinals Turing-complete (or can it be made so trivially)?
23:23:03 <lament> it can be made turing-complete by placing computers above urinals.
23:28:53 <GregorR> But then it's not the order of urinals problem, it's the computers above urinals problem.
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17:07:23 <SimonRC> GregorR: Why do you think we are all male?
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17:16:15 <GregorR> Gee SimonRC, you're right, I don't /know/ that everyone in here is male.
17:16:27 <GregorR> But the evidence overwhelmingly suggests so.
17:19:48 * SimonRC ponders sci-fi plots based around the invention of the first useable method of finding one's position in hyperspace, with all the mandatory references to George Harrison.
17:20:18 <SimonRC> At the start, I suppose, all hyperspacial navigation would have to be done by dead rekoning.
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04:12:19 <GregorR> I've written a large chunk of a header for C++ that, through setting a bunch of macros et cetera, makes C++ act very much like Java :P
04:12:39 <GregorR> Garbage collection, everything is derived from Object, pass-by-reference, ...
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04:28:16 <calamari> hmm, garbage collection with pointers.. interesting concept
04:47:19 <GregorR> Is it fast? Idonno, but I didn't do anything particularly complicated, and IIRC Boehm GC is faster than Sun-Java GC in some test.
04:47:31 <GregorR> (Probably skewed by the language)
04:48:41 <calamari> how about being able to return local variables.. guessing no :)
04:49:34 <GregorR> Depends on how you made them.
04:50:05 <GregorR> It'd call the copy constructor and the reference count would up.
04:50:07 <calamari> btw if it's fast then it isn't very much like java :(
04:50:10 <GregorR> So no reason why it wouldn't work.
04:50:23 <GregorR> I'm thinking of swapping out Boehm GC for simple reference counting.
04:50:41 <GregorR> I implemented it such that all objects are derived from Object, so I could implement reference counting in Object.
04:52:17 <calamari> remember that lang you were going to make a while back?
04:52:34 <GregorR> I don't recall ever saying I was actually going to make it ;)
04:52:41 <calamari> maybe now you can compile to c++
04:52:42 <GregorR> Just looking into what I thought would be nice.
04:53:08 <GregorR> Well, right now spanishcoffee.h is somewhere between a proof of concept and a joke.
04:53:37 <GregorR> Erm, sorry, that's the name for my C++->Javaish header.
04:53:45 <GregorR> Spanish Coffee is coffee with rum.
04:54:09 <GregorR> I suppose you should be more likely to know that than me :P
04:54:35 <GregorR> Well, just more likely, since I'm under 21 :P
04:54:45 <calamari> never even drank coffee before
04:54:57 <GregorR> And I've never drank rum ;)
04:55:22 <GregorR> Anyway, it's a big ugly hack and I love it ;P
04:55:24 <calamari> last alcohol I has was probably first grade heh
04:56:01 <GregorR> Wow, I just realized how trivial reference counting would be 8-X
04:56:06 * GregorR swaps in reference counting.
04:56:54 <calamari> turns out IBM is hiring this week so I need to hurry :)
04:57:45 * GregorR shakes his Intel brand fist at you ;)
04:57:54 <GregorR> Actually, that doesn't make any sense.
04:58:08 <GregorR> What, my reference counting algorithm?
04:58:25 <GregorR> Here it is: refcount++; refcount--; if (!refcount) delete this;
04:58:28 <GregorR> It's reaaaaaaaally complicated.
04:58:58 <calamari> refcount++; refcount--; // optimize this ;)
04:59:24 <GregorR> There's code between there X-P
06:06:22 <Arrogant> Okay, so its not quite esoteric but it certainly is out-of-the-ordinary code manipulation
06:06:26 <Arrogant> http://pasteserver.net/paste/show/260
06:07:40 <lament> you people have never drank rum?
06:07:43 <lament> you haven't lived yet.
06:20:57 <Arrogant> Gregor, check out that link I posted, c/c or something, if no one does I'll feel like my time was wasted :D
06:23:22 <lament> GregorR: 19 years old is pretty old.
06:23:30 <lament> don't tell me you never got drunk.
07:10:41 <Arrogant> please make a new language to accomodate
07:10:48 <calamari> syntax errorsyntax errorsyntax error
07:11:19 <Arrogant> stacklimit too much recursion please insert coin
07:11:59 * calamari opens the coin door and presses the magic button
07:12:21 <Arrogant> FREE PLAYFREE PLAYFREE PLAYFREE PLAYFREE PLAYFREE PLAYFREE PLAYFREE PLAY
07:13:27 <Arrogant> calamari, what have you done esoteric lately
07:13:50 <calamari> Arrogant: nothing, been dealing with real life lately
07:14:21 <calamari> well, I did get dbc's address so I can mail him his abacus :)
07:14:29 <Arrogant> The only thing remotely related to esoteric languages I've done was this thing I did to make Ruby into a prototype-based language
07:14:44 <calamari> so that's kinda esoteric related, since it was from the bf golf contest
07:15:04 <Arrogant> The code is rather horrendous so I think it fits
07:15:05 <Arrogant> http://pasteserver.net/paste/show/262
07:21:31 <Arrogant> Except in Python I like the function model better
07:21:46 <Arrogant> Considering in Ruby function_name doesn't refer to the function object, it calls the function :(
07:21:53 <Arrogant> (parenthesis not required and all)
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07:25:28 <calamari> ^^ short term memory loss, heh
07:48:39 <Arrogant> You know calamari, prototype-based programming is sorely underrepresented
07:49:54 <Arrogant> Either the language is a poor implementation of the design (Javascript), is outdated (Self), or has absolutely no syntactic sugar, making it a pain (Io)
07:51:29 <lament> what's wrong with Javascript?
07:53:30 * calamari looks up prototype-based programming to gain a clue
07:53:54 <Arrogant> It doesn't really even get the prototyping model right
07:54:08 <Arrogant> calamari, basically it gets rid of the Class/Instance distinction
07:54:15 <Arrogant> Objects are clones of other objects
07:55:09 <Arrogant> person = object.clone ; doctor = person.clone ; doctor.salary = 5000 ; steve = Doctor.clone ; steve.name = "Steve"
07:56:14 <Arrogant> Changes the way methods are defined as well, as methods have to be assigned like any other object
07:57:17 <Arrogant> I think properly done it could be a fantastic model
07:58:26 * Arrogant hears the right-wing getting ready to protest prototype-based programming
07:59:59 <calamari> wonder if the Libertarian Party will ever gain enough momentum to make a difference... so far, nope
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08:03:05 <Arrogant> btw, calamari, the code I linked you to was an implementation of ugly, incomplete prototype-based programming in Ruby
08:03:52 <Arrogant> Mostly ugly because of Ruby's unfortunate distinction between blocks and methods :/
08:04:39 <Arrogant> I'd do it in Python except Python doesn't have anonymous blocks
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15:43:14 <ihope> Scientology... the science of science?
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16:35:18 <GregorR> ihope: Scientology: The science of attaining ultimate gullibility.
16:35:37 <GregorR> A science that few have mastered.
16:35:47 <GregorR> Most of them actors or other influential morons.
16:48:36 <SimonRC> nah, there are a lot of plain victims
16:49:03 <SimonRC> To finance the much btter experience by all the famous people.
16:49:42 <SimonRC> *cough* http://clambake.org/ *cough* Ididn'tmentionthissite.
16:51:22 * ihope has a feeling there's a URL between coughs, but upon closer inspection, there is none
17:03:09 <SimonRC> fnord clambake fnord dot fnord org fnord
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23:37:06 <kipple> have anybody here used Ruby on Rails?
23:37:27 <lament> my father wants to learn it.
23:37:53 <kipple> looks like it could be a fun and quick way to do web apps
23:50:01 <jix> yay i use it
23:50:04 <jix> it's really cool
23:50:25 <jix> but i have to go to bed now.. school tomorrow and its 1 am here
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06:34:04 <GregorR> I just added user permissions to my wiki system :)
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13:16:42 <SimonRC> OMG, they killed ChanServ!
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16:56:24 <ihope> Woot, it's Thursday?
16:58:57 <ihope> Excuse for my post but I do not have money to buy meal to my children. Forgive me please.
16:59:36 <ihope> That was taken from a piece of vandalism.
16:59:57 * jix wants a new mac book pro
17:02:01 <SimonRC> Hmm, my grades so far appear to be exponentially distributed.
17:02:31 <SimonRC> giving me a mean of 74 and a median of 93
17:02:53 <ihope> Yeah, that'd be me, more or less.
17:03:09 <SimonRC> you aren;t at my Uni, though
17:08:27 * SimonRC decides he likes the fact that CS only has 5 exams.
17:08:43 <SimonRC> As opposed to the dozens Maths people get.
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22:48:21 <GregorR> How do you say "Finnish" in Finnish?
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00:21:03 <ihope> Well, "English" in English is "English". Maybe "Finnish" in Finnish is "Finnish".
00:29:21 <kipple> "Finland" in Finnish is "Suomi", so I guess it it is something similar
00:32:14 <lindi-> GregorR: "in Finnish" is "suomeksi"
00:32:28 <ihope> Spècíâl chârâctërs! Møøse!
00:54:14 <GregorR> lindi-: Thanks! I'll take your /whois to mean that you're a reliable reference for this info :)
00:55:20 <GregorR> lindi-: Erm, actually, I don't want "in Finnish," I just want "Finnish." It's just a list of languages (English, Deutsch, Español, Italiano ...)
00:56:12 <GregorR> Or is there no precise translation due to the structure of the language?
01:01:56 <lindi-> GregorR: the name of language would be just "suomi"
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01:05:38 <lindi-> GregorR: http://publications.eu.int/code/fi/fi-370201.htm might help if you wonder about the capitalization of other names of languages
01:06:34 <GregorR> I do, I've just been capitalizing them all until Finnish 8-X
01:06:59 <GregorR> <-- clearly not a language expert
01:07:04 <GregorR> At least, not in natural languages ;)
01:07:33 <lindi-> i'm not sure how much you should trust that publications.eu.int document but it does talk about "italiano"
01:07:56 <GregorR> It's really not particuarly important, nobody uses this script anyway :P
01:08:38 <lindi-> http://publications.eu.int/code/pdf/370000en.htm capitalizes them all, hmm
01:09:37 <GregorR> Umm, they look decap'd to me ...
01:09:52 <GregorR> The nations are capitalized, but not the languages.
01:10:39 <lindi-> have fun with the irregularities :)
01:11:00 <GregorR> Well, I'm not writing any of the translations, I just make the list :P
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02:47:11 <GregorR> pgimeno: Mind translating "Registration is not handled by this wiki, you must attain an account elsewhere." into Español for me?
02:48:31 <ihope> Es español, no Español.
02:48:43 <GregorR> I just learned that even :P
02:49:07 <GregorR> And also learned that ... geeze, how long ago now ... six years? Seven years? Quite a while ago.
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04:37:29 <GregorR> Does google index <!-- comments --> on web sites?
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07:01:56 * GregorR adds NT domain authentication to Giki 8-D
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18:21:38 <sp3tt> A communist programming language.
18:21:51 <sp3tt> Obviously, it is not object oriented.
18:27:11 <sp3tt> And with no capital letters.
18:28:26 <sp3tt> The < and > operators will have to be banned. All variables are equal.
18:28:40 <sp3tt> Further, all calculations must give random results.
18:28:44 <sp3tt> That would be so awesome.
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22:38:49 <GregorR> Unfortunate that I wasn't here to help with my own programming language :P
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00:21:23 <pgimeno> GregorR: "Registration is not handled by this wiki, you must attain an account elsewhere." -> "Este wiki no maneja registro de usuarios; debes obtener una cuenta por otros medios." (translation adapted; it literally means: "this wiki does not handle user registration; you must obtain an account by other means" which sounds more adapted to Spanish speech)
00:22:29 <pgimeno> (sorry for the delay, I've just arrived back home)
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00:51:18 <ihope> http://mfrost.typepad.com/cute_overload/images/647.jpg
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01:57:32 <ihope> In Firefox, this link doesn't go anywhere: http://:-(/
01:57:59 <ihope> This does, however: http://X-D/
02:01:42 <ihope> So does this: http://^_^/
02:15:26 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh kay.
02:25:00 <GregorR> pgimeno: Mind giving me "Username", "Password" and "Preview" as well (I don't trust babelfish :) )
02:25:19 <GregorR> Oh, hehehe, it's 3AM there :P
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03:27:54 <GregorR> 18:24:57 <GregorR> Oh, hehehe, it's 3AM there :P
03:29:24 <i|> That would be me being amazed at the concept of the limp.
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03:30:01 <i|> Yes, the limp.
03:30:34 <i|> Ow ow ow my ankle hurts oh if i walk this way it wont hurt as much.
03:30:50 <GregorR> So you're speaking literally of limping ...
03:31:04 <GregorR> I'm not sure what's so awe inspiring about that.
03:31:42 <i|> Well, you have to agree that it's more awe-inspriring than the fact that it's 3 AM somewhere.
03:32:03 <GregorR> But that was my response to asking him to do something, when he's clearly asleep.
03:34:40 <i|> It's just another human anthropomorphization, GregorR.
03:34:56 <GregorR> I'm going to go eat dinner now.
03:35:01 <GregorR> It's Friday, so I'm eating out.
03:36:04 <GregorR> Well, I'll go find something :P
03:36:15 <i|> Well then, do as Hutch in that one movie did...
04:21:47 <Sgeo> my taskbar and ability to type died
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04:31:24 <i|> Apparently Bush coined the word "misunderstanding".
04:35:25 <GregorR> Who is it here that's the python addict?
04:36:37 <i|> Would that be ChanServ?
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04:37:37 <GregorR> Whas? How about "Was", Gregor -_-
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06:12:53 <GregorR> lament: DAMN YOU AND YOUR GOOD PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06:13:58 <GregorR> That being said, I now have a non-web scripting language of preference, which is good because perl is amazingly bad.
06:15:04 <GregorR> I still don't enjoy the whole no-block-ending-keyword thing, but I'm learning to grok that, and it's a small price to pay.
06:15:59 <lament> don't worry, you'll enjoy it soon enough.
06:16:08 <lament> it's really way better than any other way.
06:17:28 <GregorR> I just don't like that you can end multiple blocks in one swift move, especially since it can sometimes be unclear exactly what block you just dropped to >_>
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14:37:37 <Keymaker> how come everyone is trying irp lately? :)
14:38:10 <rocket000> Okay, this is as esoteric a you can get.
14:40:50 <rocket000> Okay, i gotta say it. IRP is st00pid. It's pointless. It's brilliant.
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14:47:32 <Keymaker> aargh, i was away for a while, sorry
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14:55:02 <jix> rocket000: you can join multiple channels at once
14:56:37 <rocket000> Okay. How would you go about making a 99 bottles of beer program in IRP?
14:57:32 <jix> just ask someone to print the lyrics of 99 bob...
14:59:55 <jix> well that would generate a "IRP interpreter kicked from channel/server" error ;) to much lines/secs
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16:56:11 <ihope> Well, I hate trackballs even more.
17:13:02 <ihope> Okay. I wouldn't want to be this guy: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/getavatar?memberid=367743
17:14:22 <SimonRC> Isn't there a website full of such stuff?
17:15:57 <Keymaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonsai_Kitten
17:56:04 <ihope> su: user root does not exist
18:00:26 <jix> ihope: use sudo
18:00:42 <ihope> bash: sudo: command not found
18:01:30 <jix> on osx there is no root by default but there is sudo.... same on some linux distributions
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20:19:07 <SimonRC> oh, man Wikipedia is amazing
20:19:56 <SimonRC> What "real" encyclopedia would have an article on the most famous internet shock site of all time: goatse.cx ?
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20:41:20 <sp3tt> I love their article on the word fuck.
20:57:36 <jix> GregorR: you don't have to learn AJAX
20:57:43 <jix> you just have to use it
20:57:55 <jix> (if you use ruby on rails)
20:58:37 <jix> and learning AJAX is learning javascript learning prototype.js...
21:15:26 <GregorR> It has all the worst stuff from perl.
21:15:31 <GregorR> They didn't learn from perl's mistakes.
21:16:02 <GregorR> And besides that, I don't like magic solutions.
21:29:25 <GregorR> Already knowing Javascript and <insert name of favorite server-side web programming language here> is practically already knowing AJAX.
21:48:37 <Keymaker> yeah, there is pretty much everything in wikipedia
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21:57:52 <jix> GregorR: no ruby has taken the good stuff from perl!
22:00:42 <Keymaker> hey, guess what? wiki has spam again!
22:09:03 <GregorR> From my experience with ruby, it has all the syntactic cyanide^H^H^H^H^H^H^H"sugar" of perl.
22:26:58 <jix> i like that
22:27:11 <jix> but what is wrong with /regexp/ ?
22:27:32 <jix> thats just a shortcut for Regexp.new("regexp")
22:28:20 <jix> and "test" =~ /test/ is just "test".=~(Regexp.new("test"))
22:30:00 <jix> and puts "test" is puts("test")
22:32:44 <pgimeno> GregorR: "Username", "Password", "Preview" -> "Usuario", "Clave", "Vista previa"
22:33:46 <jix> no! "Username", "Password", "Preview" -> "Benutzername", "Passwort", "Vorschau"
22:34:27 <GregorR> Oh hey jix, you can update my German translation, thanks for volunteering!
22:35:10 <jix> is it for giki?
22:35:47 <GregorR> pgimeno: Sorry to keep imposing, but I have two last ones I added, then no more, do you mind?
22:37:15 <GregorR> pgimeno: "Repeat password", "Passwords don't match!"
22:37:55 <pgimeno> hm... "Repeat password" as in "Please type in the password again"?
22:38:11 <GregorR> Yeah - like on a registration page, it has Password: and then Repeat password: for verification.
22:39:15 <pgimeno> then "Repita la clave" will do
22:39:51 <pgimeno> "Passwords don't match" -> "Las claves no coinciden"
22:40:52 <GregorR> jix: Since you graciously volunteered to translate these strings into German: "Repeat password", "Preview", "Registration is not handled by this wiki, you must attain an account elsewhere.", "Passwords don't match!"
22:41:21 <GregorR> Oh wait, you already gave me "Preview" :P
22:41:28 <pgimeno> btw, the worst point of Python IMO is non-modifiable strings
22:41:39 <GregorR> pgimeno: Yeah, that's pretty obnoxious.
22:41:45 <GregorR> I don't like their decisions for immutability.
22:42:18 <pgimeno> something that PHP gracefully rejected
22:42:30 <GregorR> I really love PHP's syntax, it's awesome in every way.
22:42:35 <GregorR> PHP's syntax is the holy grail of syntax.
22:42:40 <jix> i HATE php's syntax
22:43:03 <GregorR> Hmmn, haven't had any experience with Pike.
22:43:24 <pgimeno> it's mostly C, just it's not C
22:43:54 <jix> "Repeat password" => "Passwort wiederholen" "Registration is not handled by this wiki, you must attain an account elsewhere." => just sounds stupid in german.. i have to think about this "Passwords don't match!" => "Passwörter stimmen nicht überein"
22:44:29 <GregorR> jix: Yeah, pgimeno adjusted that phrase to be more suitable for the Spanish langauge too, it'll probably need some funkifying.
22:45:32 <GregorR> His was literally "this wiki does not handle user registration; you must obtain an account by other means"
22:45:58 <jix> thats a bit better for german but still not perfect
22:46:08 <GregorR> Well, you're the one who speaks it ;)
22:46:48 <jix> if i knew the context i could rephrase it in a good way... where do you display this?
22:47:15 <GregorR> If the wiki uses a login plugin. A situation like that would be if the wiki used UNIX logins, or logged you on to an NT domain.
22:47:27 <GregorR> If that situation holds true, and you try to go to the registration page, it says that.
22:47:37 <jix> would "User registration isn't allowed" be ok?
22:47:49 <GregorR> Well, it's not necessarily true >_>
22:47:59 <jix> i know but it sounds better
22:48:02 <GregorR> The wiki doesn't handle the user registration, but it could be handled elsewhere.
22:48:22 <GregorR> I had no idea this phrase was so problematic O_O
22:48:32 <jix> to handle is the problematic word
22:48:58 <jix> yeah i allready tried that but...
22:50:45 <jix> how is account called in the other translations? (german)
22:50:51 <pgimeno> GregorR: now that you say that, you'd better change "Este wiki no maneja..." to "Este wiki no soporta..."
22:51:25 <GregorR> jix: The word "account" isn't used anywhere else :P
22:51:33 <jix> ah and the word registration?
22:52:10 <GregorR> I actually used the phrase "add user" to title the page.
22:52:32 <GregorR> Stop pointing out my inconsistencies :P
22:54:56 <jix> ah i have an idea "Die Benutzer-Registration wird nicht über diesen Wiki abgewickelt, [Ss]ie müssen ihren Benutzer-Account an anderer Stelle Registrieren" thats "user reigstration isn't handled by this wiki (i found a transltaion for handled that sounds good), you have to register your account at a different place"
22:55:27 <GregorR> Why is it that the word "Sie/sie" could be capped or decapped there?
22:55:51 <jix> i think that changed with the new orthography
22:55:53 <jix> but i'm not sure
22:56:30 <pgimeno> grr, orthography changes are hateful/obnoxious
22:56:51 <jix> google is 50:50 on Sie vs sie ....
22:57:08 <GregorR> Does it even support cap changes?
22:57:08 <jix> i'd use Sie
22:58:25 <jix> normally words like Sie are in lower case.. but Sie is the polite form of du (both you in english) and i think it's capitalized because of it is the polite form
22:59:40 <jix> but in german you can't substitute du and Sie without changing EVERYTHING else in the sentence
23:01:28 * pgimeno thinks that human communication languages shouldn't be esoteric
23:01:45 <GregorR> Esoteric isn't the right word there, but I agree :p
23:01:53 <jix> oh and "they" is "Sie" too!
23:02:01 <jix> no wait it's always lowercase then...
23:02:07 <jix> but the rest of the sentence is different
23:02:28 <jix> not in all cases but in some
23:08:34 <pgimeno> that human communication languages shouldn't be esoteric
23:09:04 <GregorR> Esoteric isn't the right word there, but I agree :p
23:10:11 * pgimeno founds the Esoteric Insistence Society (EIS)
23:11:40 <GregorR> So, Giki 1.5.0 will rock to ridiculous degrees.
23:12:55 <GregorR> I know how much you all care about that :P
23:15:30 <GregorR> I don't have a #giki , so I have to redirect giki news here :P
23:40:09 <lament> pgimeno: natural languages are all quite esoteric by programming language standards
23:40:22 <lament> pgimeno: perhaps not in the sense of brainfuck, but certainly in the sense of perl
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00:09:31 <GregorR> Is perl or BrainFuck more ridiculous (I'll use this term because BF is clearly more esoteric)
00:35:23 <lament> i think perl, because, unlike brainfuck, people actually use it
00:35:36 <lament> and that's just ridiculous
00:47:51 <GregorR> Brainfuck also has much more internal consistency.
00:58:51 <lament> and more international conspiracy.
01:06:47 * pgimeno points to http://giki.sf.net/ (and goes to bed)
01:11:27 <GregorR> It's small and easy to use, but supports plugins to a ridiculous degree.
01:11:39 <GregorR> With plugins, you can go from the world's simplest wiki to MediaWiki ^^
01:12:02 <GregorR> Mind you, not all of the plugins for that are implemented X-P
01:12:31 <SimonRC> Surely I will never get used to the sheer amazingness of the net:
01:12:32 <SimonRC> http://tcc.members.beeb.net/
01:13:07 <GregorR> http://www.donotputthebaby.com/
01:24:34 <GregorR> There will be when you suggest one 8-D
01:41:15 <jix> don't put the baby into the vacuum bell jar
01:41:57 <jix> don't put the baby near a black hole
01:43:07 <jix> don't put the baby close to Gregor
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19:15:57 <SimonRC> lolol: http://slashdot.org/articles/06/04/23/159227.shtml (a comment points to a mirror at: http://data.coolnicks.co.uk/Code%20Monkey.mp3 )
19:17:02 <SimonRC> # Code monkey like Fritos. # # Code monkey like TAB and Mountain Dew. #
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20:18:03 <GregorR> Arrrrgh, why doesn't w3 validator like this >_O
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22:32:35 * GregorR tries to decide whether to release Giki 1.5.0 today or wait for feedback from the people he e-mailed >_>
22:35:21 <jix> release it now and release a "i shouldn't have released this yesterday" release tomorrow!
22:36:45 <jix> http://www.hermann-uwe.de/blog/debian-packages-release-names
22:38:17 <jix> WoW effect?
22:38:22 <Arrogant> Break it with a patch on Tuesday
22:38:31 <Arrogant> Apologize and revert with another patch on Wednesday
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22:39:22 <GregorR> Not much forewarning, jix.
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23:37:28 <calamari> hmm, been thinking of another contest: smallest compiler, of any turing complete lang.. existing or nonexistant. basically what was done with bf. any platform, any binary type, any machine language with actual hardware
23:37:45 <calamari> in other words, smallest compiler ever
23:38:13 <calamari> I think it can be done smaller than bf, if another lang were used
23:42:55 <GregorR> No dynamic binaries allowed?
23:43:31 <calamari> I was thinking about that.. it would be reasonable to allow file operations and stdin/out
23:43:52 <calamari> but not any lib.. otherwise you get libturing.so
23:43:56 <GregorR> Pff, dynamic binaries are for pansies.
23:44:15 <GregorR> Just use raw system calls.
23:44:20 <calamari> GregorR: how else would you read the file from linux
23:44:44 <calamari> oh, I misunderstood what you were saying
23:44:45 <GregorR> Plus of course you could just make it read from stdin.
23:45:06 <calamari> for example in ms-dos I could use bios / dos calls
23:45:21 <GregorR> Safer than allowing library links.
23:45:53 <calamari> of course, MS-DOS calls might be considered cheating, I dunno
23:46:37 <calamari> the idea was that they couldn't just call somer function that was the real compiler
23:46:49 <GregorR> Don't want them linking to libpython.so
23:47:18 <calamari> also, no excuses based on platform.. if you choose linux, you live with the ovverhead elf or a.out or whatever :)
23:47:59 <calamari> so probably best not to use linux hehe
23:49:00 <calamari> pretty sure 8-bit atari and commodore machines also have a raw binary format
23:50:48 <calamari> not sure if any 68000-based machines used raw binaries.. perhaps the st?
23:51:36 <calamari> I suppose it should also be a standard os .. otherwise the open call might have extra special turing complete behavior
23:51:49 <calamari> not that anyone would cheat that way.. hehe
23:52:00 <GregorR> First write your own OS, then write this :P
23:52:27 <calamari> and instantly you have the 0-byte turing complete lang
23:53:20 <calamari> anyhow, does this seem like a contest that would be fun?
23:53:44 <GregorR> Fun in that I'd never enter because I don't have the time or patience? Heck yeah!
23:54:03 <calamari> ahh, maybe wait until summer then
23:54:34 <calamari> you don't have the patience for writing assembly language code? and you call yourself a programmer?
23:55:07 <calamari> I wonder how long it will be until they don't even offer assembly languages courses in college
23:57:56 <GregorR> No, I don't have the patience for writing this particular project in assembly language code, especially nasty code with raw syscalls et al.
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01:04:33 <GregorR> What brings you to #esoteric?
01:05:13 <GregorR> Or welcome back if I just haven't noticed you X-P
01:07:32 * Waddledee saw the Wikipedia article on IRP and decided to poke his lack of nose in on a whim.
01:08:34 <GregorR> Hahah, since when is there a Wikipedia article on IRP? XD
01:09:16 <GregorR> I presume you mean on the esolangs wiki, though it would be hilarious if there was one on Wikipedia ;P
01:10:51 * Waddledee attempts to figure out how he got here. ('');
01:11:28 <Waddledee> Ah, here it is! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DWIM has a link to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/IRP
01:11:59 <GregorR> It amuses me that my stupid IRP page has been linked to from Wikipedia ;P
01:12:51 <GregorR> I have to figure out who posted that there ^^
01:13:46 <Waddledee> Sam Pointon, according to the edit history.
01:14:12 <GregorR> Surprised it's not somebody in here (AFAIK)
01:19:50 * Waddledee tosses GregorR a soda: pineapple! It's got a picture of Rick on the side.
01:20:55 <GregorR> I'm mildly terrified, but will still drink :P
01:24:05 <Waddledee> It's just pineapple soda with a picture of a hamster on it. I got it at Waddle Mart.
01:24:36 <GregorR> OK, it's at least slightly less terrifying now.
01:25:17 <GregorR> And then, Gregor dissapeared!
01:25:32 <GregorR> (IE I have stuff to do which doesn't involve sitting at the computer X-P)
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02:20:12 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:20 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:24 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:27 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:30 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:34 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:38 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:40 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:42 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:44 <GregorR> OMG MAKE THE FLOODING STOP
02:20:45 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:47 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:48 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:50 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:51 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:53 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:57 <GregorR> HOW DO YOU DISABLE THE IRP INTERPRETER?!?!?!
02:20:58 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:20:59 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:21:00 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:21:06 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:21:07 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:21:10 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:21:16 <GregorR> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:21:18 <calamari> Please write this exact line to this channel.
02:21:51 <lament> Please send me all your money.
02:23:18 <calamari> are you suggesting a course of action? :)
02:23:40 <GregorR> Please break into somebody's house and steal something not particularly valuable, like a fork.
02:24:35 <calamari> oh my.. I seem to have violated IRP etiquette
02:24:47 <calamari> thank you GregorR for your assistance in running my IRP program ;)
02:25:12 <GregorR> Your welcome, calamari! :P
02:25:26 <GregorR> And thank you for running mine which was really just yours by proxy.
02:27:06 <calamari> well I have females chasing me... but they are just mosquitos
02:27:24 <GregorR> Gotta get what you can where you can X-P
02:27:35 <GregorR> I guess that phrase doesn't apply when you're married, does it :P
02:30:13 <lament> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Yellow_Four_Code
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03:02:37 <calamari> hmm.. smaller code: reading the program from stdin, writing to stdout :)
03:04:21 <GregorR> I thought the assumption was that it would do that.
03:05:07 <GregorR> Here's an issue: I want to write an interpreter for i386 to run i386 code - that should be tough, yeah. Write it into memory then jmp. Difficult.
03:06:22 <calamari> that would be cheating, because it is essentially using the cpu as an external library
03:06:49 <calamari> btw you wouldn't even need to jmp
03:08:08 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, compiler.
03:08:12 <GregorR> OK, yeah, then just echo in to out :P
03:08:47 <GregorR> Argh, this homework is so stupid: "5) Obtain the HTTP/1.1 specification and answer the following questions: a) Explain the mechanism ..."
03:08:50 <GregorR> That's not a question, stupid!
03:09:11 <calamari> Just mentally change Explain to What is
03:23:23 <calamari> GregorR: so, what is a rule to prevent the cat compiler?
03:25:40 <GregorR> calamari: The source language and the destination language must not be otherwise interoperable?
03:25:58 <GregorR> That's probably too binding slash difficult to explicate.
03:26:03 <calamari> so then I just subtract one from the "source" -> "det"
03:38:01 <calamari> can't even restrict the program to printable characters, because you can wiggle out of that one in dos
03:39:23 <calamari> (the printable characters are sufficient to build an extraction program)
03:41:18 <calamari> but then we have to deal with elf headers
03:58:16 <GregorR> Fram is the word that means "Don't do this. Yeah, you know what I mean. Don't do it.
04:04:08 <lament> what's a cat compiler?
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04:15:15 <GregorR_> lament: That was the example of compiling i386 code to i386 code as a simple compiler.
04:15:25 <GregorR_> Of course, it's not a compiler at all, it's `cat`
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04:37:35 <lament> it certainly qualifies
04:38:24 <lament> it's just really shitty since it has no error detection whatsoever
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05:29:28 <calamari> does it help if its an interpreter?
05:36:20 <calamari> what I mean is it might be easier to define a rule
05:37:13 <GregorR> Such as 'the input must be processed conditionally'
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06:08:45 <Waddledee> Is it normally this quiet in here, or did I come at a bad time?
06:09:11 <GregorR> It's usually pretty quiet.
06:09:15 <GregorR> Occasionally it gets noisy.
06:10:19 * Waddledee nods, taking a seat on a little cushion. Wanna chocolate capsule?
06:11:10 <GregorR> If you take the brown pill, you'll see just how far the rabbit hole goes.
06:11:20 <GregorR> If you take the blue pill, well, yeah, you get the idea.
06:13:08 * Waddledee gives GregorR a chocolate capsule. Inside is a Series Two Kaboomba, with walking-off-ledges action!
06:14:38 * GregorR doesn't recognize the reference.
06:17:25 <Waddledee> It, like me, is a critter from the Kirby games. It's a bomb with feet. It likes to walk off ledges and fall on Kirby's head.
06:17:48 <Waddledee> Sprite: http://kirby.classicgaming.gamespy.com/games/nightmare/enemies/kaboomba.PNG
06:23:46 * Waddledee is a fan of the Kirby games, as you might guess.
06:39:40 <lament> I was just reading the wikipedia article about Kaiten, japanese manned suicide torpedoes
06:54:54 <lament> Yet another reason to dislike Kirby games.
06:58:18 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirby_calculus
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10:50:27 <SimonRC> the yellow-four-code wiki page needs a vocabulary correction.
10:53:16 <SimonRC> "base-4 bit" -> "quart" (to match INTERCAL docs)
11:02:38 * SimonRC goes to a lecture, feeling paranoid. http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=183890&cid=15188582
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02:29:23 <lament> cool, an article about interactive fiction on mobygames
05:10:17 <GregorR> Anybody mind making a judgment about a wiki template?
05:11:40 <GregorR> Never mind, the person I was trying to talk to reappeared :P
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07:12:56 <thin> is this a good language design channel to debate about languages, even if they aren't necessarily esoteric?
07:13:32 <lament> i don't know of any other language design channels
07:14:07 <lament> unless #lisp counts :)
07:14:11 <thin> well i was reading some php vs ruby on rails discussion and i started wondering, what the heck is necessary for fast development in a language..
07:14:25 <GregorR> <lament> Python, that's what!
07:14:39 <GregorR> Thought I'd answer preemptively for ya'.
07:15:01 <GregorR> That is a curious question.
07:15:14 <thin> personally i'm a forther.. and i was attracted to its promise of fast development, but i spend most of my time messing with the low level stuff :/
07:15:14 <GregorR> I think first and foremost it has to be interpreted, and abstract away the concept of pointers.
07:15:32 <lament> fast development in forth is a horrible horrible lie :)
07:15:45 <thin> well its theoretically possible! ;)
07:15:58 <lament> i won't believe it till it's proven
07:16:14 <lament> i bet the proof will use the axiom of choice
07:16:24 <GregorR> It also has to be very internally consistent.
07:16:42 <GregorR> One thing that annoys me about PHP is that some functions take (haystack, needle) and others take (needle, haystack)
07:16:43 <lament> so basically, it has to be Python.
07:16:58 <GregorR> Also, strings have to be mutable.
07:17:01 <thin> i heard ruby was the new python :P
07:17:01 <GregorR> Otherwise it's just worthless.
07:17:36 <lament> thin: why do we need a new python, when the old one works just fine?
07:17:37 <GregorR> Ruby is the new shiny object.
07:17:52 <lament> Ruby on Rails is becoming somewhat buzzwordish, true
07:17:54 <GregorR> I don't like Ruby because it inherited all the worst parts of Perl and all the worst parts of OO >_> <_<
07:18:14 <thin> heh, what are those parts?
07:18:23 <GregorR> $_ will never be acceptable.
07:18:31 <GregorR> That's the most notable :P
07:18:40 <thin> don't hackers love $_ ? :P
07:18:50 <GregorR> Morons who think they're hackers.
07:19:09 <thin> whats the harm in $_ though?
07:19:09 <GregorR> Also, the whole @a is an array, $a['blah'] is an element unless that element is an array in which case it's still @a['blah'] but then $a['blah'][0] OH GOD
07:19:28 <GregorR> Side effects are usually bad, and $_ is the definition of side effects.
07:19:35 <GregorR> Virtually EVERYTHING modifies $_.
07:19:42 <GregorR> You can never keep it consistent.
07:19:46 <GregorR> Plus, things like this are just ugly:
07:19:56 <lament> GregorR: that's in Perl, though
07:20:07 <lament> GregorR: Ruby doesn't use them that way
07:20:08 <GregorR> lament: Yeah, I'm going a bit overboard on perl hatred ^^
07:20:16 <GregorR> Forgot we were talking about Ruby ;)
07:20:44 <lament> the nice thing about Python is that it pretty much requires good style.
07:20:47 <GregorR> Anyway, I don't like any language that absolutely FORCES me to use OO even when it's not the appropriate paradigm.
07:20:59 <lament> nobody *EVER* uses it.
07:21:10 <GregorR> Wow, I didn't even know it had it.
07:21:50 <lament> _ only works in the command-line interpreter.
07:22:06 <lament> (mind you that's a good thing anyway :D )
07:22:25 <lament> Neither Python nor Ruby force you to use OO
07:22:27 <GregorR> Yeah, it really ought not to exist.
07:22:47 <lament> thin: the whole "hackers love this" argument is not gonna work in this channel :)
07:22:52 <GregorR> lament: But in Ruby, it's always "actually you're defining a method in the class Object so secretly you're using OO hahahah!"
07:22:56 <lament> thin: if we want Malbolge, we know where to find it
07:23:18 <lament> hackers love )*(#&)(*#$G(*FG(#)&HD(*>Y&()K>%
07:23:51 <GregorR> {M[m(_o)O!"Glass is still better though ;)"(_o)o.?]}
07:24:03 <GregorR> Because Glass forces you to use OO whether you want to or not :P
07:24:16 <thin> i was thinking of paul graham's language popularity article when i said "hackers love $_" :P although i was sort of making up the statement
07:24:36 <lament> Languages are popular because people are idiots.
07:24:39 <GregorR> Perl is popular more out of momentum than anything else.
07:24:45 <lament> All popular languages are shit.
07:24:50 <lament> (Python is pretty crappy too)
07:24:53 <thin> i'll definitely agree there
07:24:55 <thin> forth is the best!
07:24:56 <GregorR> lament: Python's pretty popular....erm.
07:25:06 <lament> Forth's pretty popular... used to be, anyway
07:25:21 <GregorR> Now Brainfuck is a beautiful thing.
07:25:31 <thin> its not for the rapid developer :P
07:25:32 <lament> brainfuck is rather popular
07:25:43 <lament> brainfuck is pretty much the only esoteric language i hear mentioned outside this channel
07:25:47 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Glass rocks"(_o)o.?]}
07:25:50 <lament> well, sometimes befunge and whitespace
07:25:56 <thin> haven't heard of glass :)
07:26:22 <thin> ah, i'm sorry ;)
07:26:35 <lament> he made it, and all he can write it in is the "glass rocks" program
07:26:40 <GregorR> thin: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Glass (not that you're probably interested at all)
07:26:44 <lament> that's how awesome a language it is
07:27:01 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_d)(Debug)!(_d)(cl).?]}
07:27:04 <EgoBot> A Arr Arre Debug I M O S V
07:27:18 <GregorR> Woah, what happened to all the builtin functions O_O
07:28:09 <lament> GregorR: You never wrote them. that's what happened.
07:28:17 <GregorR> jix wrote some of them X-P
07:28:27 <lament> Obviously he didn't :)
07:29:10 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_d)(Debug)!(_d)(cl).?]}
07:30:56 <GregorR> Oh, hahahah, I know how, too. I put filesize limits on the interpreters that are too small for it XD
07:34:49 <thin> so much for figuring out the magic key to rapid development and giving this key to forth and Glass!
07:35:15 <lament> the magic key to rapid development is being a good programmer.
07:35:52 <lament> And knowing what's the right tool for the job (which is part of being a good programmer)
07:36:14 <thin> but knowing the magic key lets you choose the right tools ;P
07:36:51 <lament> I doubt there's a key magic enough that it lets you choose Forth.
07:36:51 <GregorR> <lament> The magic key is: "Python"
07:37:12 <GregorR> Sorry, lament, you're not actually anywhere near as predictable as I'm making you out to be XD
07:38:13 <lament> You just lack predictive powers :)
07:38:36 <thin> under ideal conditions, you do all your development within forth in the interactive interface, testing each word on the fly to build them together etc..
07:39:34 <lament> while receiving a blowjob
07:42:12 <lament> And you're not actually developing anything. Just smoking a joint or something.
07:42:28 <GregorR> And you get paid for this.
07:42:55 <lament> I guess the magic key to rapid development is being a rock star, then.
07:44:15 <lament> in the meantime, just use Python :D
07:45:00 <thin> you read tom peters?
07:45:37 <thin> the rock star comment
07:46:36 <thin> tom peters is a motivational business guru guy and his book has comments in it like "Be the rock star of development!" or some such
07:46:47 <thin> it's not as bad as it sounds ;)
07:47:36 <GregorR> Get rich by selling books on getting rich to tons of people? ^^
07:51:27 <thin> nah its not a get rich/self help book
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20:01:57 <lament> Anybody awake? Tell kate` something interesting
20:07:23 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to _YOU.
20:07:28 * _YOU HAVE RECEIVED A FATAL ERROR, PRESS ALT + F4 TO REPAIR THIS IMMEDIATELY
20:07:41 -!- _YOU has changed nick to SimonRC.
20:08:49 <lament> that's what happens when i press alt-f4
20:09:05 <jix> nothing happens
20:10:07 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to _YOU.
20:10:59 * _YOU HAVE RECEIVED A FATAL ERROR, TYPE "/QUIT" then "rm -rf /*" TO REPAIR THIS IMMEDIATELY
20:11:16 -!- _YOU has changed nick to SimonC.
20:11:22 -!- SimonC has changed nick to SimonRC.
20:11:27 <jix> well if i type /quit my client will quit but if i type rm -rf /* i get an not connected to server error
20:11:27 <lament> SimonRC: you're doing it wrong.
20:11:47 <lament> SimonRC: no need to trick people with action messages
20:12:25 <lament> You just need to run an IRP program.
20:12:45 <lament> Please quit your IRC client and delete all the files on your computer.
20:14:19 <lament> "A critical security flaw has been discovered in the current IRP implementation. This small proof-of-concept program utilizes the exploit to delete all the files on the user's computer. Enter #esoteric to run the program."
20:16:09 <Baughn> lament: I tried, but it tells me I've already joined. How do I fix it?
20:17:44 <lament> Switch it off. What does it know. It's not even Turing-complete.
20:18:13 <lament> well, what do you know.
20:18:37 <Baughn> I'll just wait for the universe to run out of tape. That should do it.
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21:55:31 <jix> moin calamari
22:10:41 <lament> hello, calamari. Please disregard all IRP programs.
22:18:10 <GregorR> Because to follow that request, he'd have to disregard that request ;)
22:20:31 <GregorR> lament: Are you going to post that security flaw to the IRP page? :p
22:22:26 <GregorR> Dang it, what is with my shift >_>
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00:40:11 <ihope> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM REINSTATING
00:40:33 <Baughn> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM ABSTAINING
00:40:59 <ihope> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM GIVING UP
00:41:22 <ihope> PLEASE GO BACK IN TIME
00:41:35 <ihope> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM ABSTAINING FROM ABSTAINING
00:41:35 <Baughn> "BACK IN TIME": No such label
00:42:03 <Baughn> Last command ignored: Abstaining from abstaining
00:42:25 <ihope> PLEASE IGNORE "\"BACK IN TIME\": No such label"
00:42:31 <ihope> PLEASE IGNORE "Last command ignored: Abstaining from abstaining"
00:42:51 <Baughn> Excessive politeness error
00:43:20 <Baughn> Please type out the last five prime numbers
00:43:54 <ihope> I am 25% sure that the last prime number ends in a 3.
00:44:14 <ihope> Anyway: the last five prime numbers.
00:48:39 <SimonRC> Baughn: what's that one mean?
00:49:18 <Baughn> SimonRC: It's a quantum superposition of every semantically correct five-word sentence that starts with those letters.
01:10:49 <ihope> Regexes and BNF need to be combined.
01:11:28 <ihope> Combine them into... <dramatic>The Backus-Naur Regex!</dramatic> <cheering />
01:21:45 <ihope> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM RESUMING #80
01:21:54 <ihope> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM REINSTATING
01:22:13 <ihope> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM ABSTAINING
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01:34:31 <ihope> I was going to say "PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM GOING TO BED", but I had already ABSTAINed FROM ABSTAINING...
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02:08:44 <SimonRC> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM NEGATING.
02:18:37 <lament> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, ABSTAIN FROM CAPSLOCK
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06:47:58 * GregorR is bound by law to do that whenever you come in ;)
06:51:10 <GregorR> Well, I'm preparing a Giki 1.5.0 release.
06:51:28 <GregorR> And that's been my entire life for about a week :P
06:53:26 <nooga> well, i've been quite bussy, i'm working for a webdesign company now
06:53:54 <GregorR> You tooooooootally want to pass your judgment on the new default template for Giki ;)
06:56:21 <lament> i'm getting a QA job for the summer
06:56:27 <lament> it will be sooooooooooo boring!
06:56:33 <lament> but i'll have money :D
06:56:36 <GregorR> I'm so glad my job doesn't suck :P
06:56:59 <GregorR> I have a job where I actually got to install Giki internally and it's being used XD
06:57:19 <nooga> i'll check that *new template*
07:07:06 <nooga> i've got cool name for an esolang
07:07:19 <GregorR> This is where you're supposed to critique the template ;)
07:07:38 <nooga> UNCOOL -> UNusual Code Obfuscation Ortiented Language
07:07:53 <nooga> ah well, it's much nice than previous
07:09:18 <GregorR> Apparently the general thought is that it's good.
07:09:21 <GregorR> So I guess I'll fly with it.
07:09:50 <nooga> only thing that's werid for me is placing 'all nodes' on the top
07:19:12 <nooga> i'm writing a compiler by hand
07:19:24 <nooga> with recursive parser
07:21:20 <nooga> i'm having problems with this thingy: a == b or c should be translated into a == b || a == c
07:22:07 <GregorR> What language is this parsing?
07:22:51 <GregorR> It looks like you're going to need to have an expression parser that can return multivalue expressions, so then when you get to the parser for ==, it can receive an expression with 'a' or 'b' for the RHS, and know what to do.
07:23:36 <GregorR> http://www.digitalmars.com/d/
07:23:45 <nooga> is it that thingy like C# but compiled?
07:23:50 <GregorR> It has the ease of Java without losing the power of C[++].
07:23:56 <GregorR> And has more power than C# :P
07:24:13 <GregorR> And has lots of niceties that are just cool.
07:24:40 <nooga> Macro text preprocessor No
07:26:37 <nooga> i like '#define foo 10' more than 'const int foo = 10;'
07:28:58 <nooga> how about STL equivalent?
07:29:43 <GregorR> As in, templates preinstalled X-P
07:29:50 <GregorR> I believe it has a few, haven't gotten deep into it.
07:30:01 <nooga> wow, strings look cool
07:30:26 <nooga> slicing and all that cool methods
07:30:45 <GregorR> Like I said, I'm really enjoying D.
07:32:35 <nooga> yah methods inside classes
07:33:23 <GregorR> It has all the nicest parts of Java/C# without losing all the power of C++. And that's the biggest thing I have against Java/C#. Plus it has all sorts of awesome features (generic operator overloading = awesome)
07:34:14 <nooga> i think i'll instal D
07:34:29 <GregorR> GDC + GCC 4.1.0 = no go, use 4.0.2
07:35:19 <GregorR> I don't use proprietary software.
07:35:27 <GregorR> So I only know that GDC is better for me.
07:35:47 <GregorR> DMD is the same with a proprietary backend.
07:35:47 <nooga> DMD is propertiary? ;/
07:35:52 <GregorR> So compatibility isn't an issue at least.
07:36:04 <GregorR> The only proprietary part is the backend, which is just strange, but minor enough that I can ignore it.
07:38:47 <nooga> then i must reboot and run linux
07:39:07 <GregorR> I do believe GDC will work on Windoze ...
07:39:18 <nooga> nvidia drivers made something bad with the console
07:39:53 <nooga> maybe yes, but i don't like to code under win
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08:27:22 <nooga> i'm playing with ajax
08:47:40 <nooga> my non esoretic language looks really nice
08:49:16 <nooga> if (a??) @ [1,3,6] : blah a;
08:50:07 <nooga> if (a = input_from_stdin) in [1,3,6] then call blah with argument a;
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15:12:04 <ihope> Okay, I thought up an Unlambda interpreter.
15:20:25 <ihope> Here's the part I've written: evaluate S = return S; evaluate (S' x) = return (S' x); evaluate (S'' x y) = return (S'' x y); evaluate (S''' x y z) = evaluate (x :$ z :$ (y :$ z)); evaluate K = K; evaluate (K' x) = return (K' x); evaluate (K'' x y) = evaluate x; evaluate I = return I; evaluate (I' x) = evaluate x; evaluate V = return V; evaluate (V' x) = return V; evaluate (O x) = return (O...
15:20:27 <ihope> ...x); evaluate (O' x y) = output x >> evaluate y; evaluate D = return D; evaluate (D' x) = return (D' x); evaluate (D'' x y) = evaluate x >>= \ex -> evaluate (ex :$ y); evaluate C = return C; evaluate (C' x) = getCont >>= \cont -> evaluate (x :$ Cont cont); evaluate (Cont x) = return (Cont x); evaluate (Cont' x y) = putCont x y
15:27:22 <ihope> Okay. A 32-bit INTERCAL variable can store the value EIGHT SIX SEVEN FIVE THREE OH NINE, correct?
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16:26:15 <calamari> my interpreter is 59 bytes.. not as small as I was hoping for
16:26:32 <jix> calamari: your what interpreter?
16:26:54 <calamari> jix: doesn't have a name.. made up the lang to be small
16:27:03 <jix> i did that too!
16:27:10 <calamari> jix: basically whatever worked best to be small to code
16:27:19 <jix> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subskin
16:27:24 <calamari> yeah I know, but I never heeard wheyther you finished
16:27:41 <jix> i wrote 99bob and a quine in it.. i'd call that finished
16:27:53 <kipple> 59 bytes is pretty small...
16:28:42 <calamari> I started with bf, and mutated it into an awful mess :)
16:29:25 <jix> calamari: in which language is the interpreter writtin?
16:30:10 <kipple> so, the byte size is the compiled code?
16:30:27 <kipple> that's one small executable :)
16:30:47 <calamari> I was hoping to keep it under 50
16:31:52 <calamari> because its in dos there is no header.. so I guess in linux you'd add 50 bytes or so
16:32:20 <calamari> but probably more as some of my hacks won't transfer over
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18:57:09 <SimonRC> 8-O http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Alliteration
19:03:13 <calamari> okay, added a page for the 59 byte lang, called it "barely": http://esolangs.org/wiki/Barely
19:10:25 <calamari> that was a 2 byte instruction and the middle one happened to make sense
19:10:51 <calamari> so there is no reason, ask intel :)
19:11:44 * calamari thinks SimonRC needs to re-read the first paragraph :)
19:12:25 <SimonRC> I though you DEBUG could do ASM
19:12:44 <calamari> you could produce a listing with debug, but you'll have a trouble in one spot
19:12:48 <SimonRC> I think it is just a jump table
19:13:01 <calamari> I overlapped an int 20h / and al,al
19:13:28 <calamari> so depending how you list you'll get one instreuction or the other
19:13:44 <calamari> hey, saved a byte that way! :)
19:17:38 <calamari> it reads the input until the char 126, leaving the ip at the end (that's the reason the program needs to be backwards)
19:18:17 <calamari> then reads a char, and uses CALL CX to jump to the appropriate routine
19:18:36 <calamari> CX is calculated very simply, that is why there are gaps in the instructions
19:18:53 <calamari> I used CALL so that I could use the 1-byte RET instruction
19:20:57 <calamari> there are other "undocumented" commands that could be run and would call INT 21h with various values, but I didn't feel like figuring out what they would do
19:22:25 <SimonRC> can you run a disassembler over it, edit it for the dodgy instruction, and make it availabel, so we can have some idea how it workd?
19:24:14 <calamari> maybe some other time, I need to do homework
19:24:47 <SimonRC> "bash: debug: command not found"
19:25:07 <calamari> dosemu, qemu, bochs, dosbox, ...
19:27:00 <calamari> hmm, I have an idea that I can do really quick
19:29:40 <SimonRC> how the heck do you load stuff in debug?
19:31:07 <calamari> note that debug doesn't properly set up the registers so you'll need to chnge them
19:34:23 <calamari> okay, it should be on the wiki now, in the links
19:36:15 * SimonRC tuts at the STOSB instuction
19:39:50 <calamari> hehe.. I really wanted to use AAD with a nonstandard operand, or XLAT, but had no need
19:50:13 <calamari> AAD = ascii adjust for addition, AL = AH * "0Ah" + AL, AH = 0.. the opcode is D5, 0A.. but you can change the 0A :)
19:55:25 <calamari> I hope someone beats my size, I'd like to see something in the 30's
19:55:50 * Baughn considers writing the ultimate annoying ISA
20:11:52 <SimonRC> calamari: I have a better-annotated listing
20:30:18 <SimonRC> I will change a few more things then give you it
20:31:24 <calamari> did you find any ways to make it smaller
20:32:21 <calamari> instead of adding 10 I can multiply by 2
20:32:49 <calamari> SHL BX,1 should do it, saves a byte
20:42:52 <calamari> uploading that and changing the wiki.. manneer gonna get my homework done lol
20:51:19 <calamari> I could do *2+1 I suppose, since the carry bit is probably set
21:19:41 <SimonRC> "Last spot in heaven taken; hundreds waitlisted"
21:19:44 <SimonRC> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/UnNews:Last_spot_in_heaven_taken%3B_hundreds_waitlisted
21:33:46 <kipple> I love this: "The last spot in heaven has been taken. However, conflicts, cancellations, and blood transfusions could still occur, so don't lose hope."
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22:40:35 <SimonRC> Moloch -- the evil god of manual memory management.
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22:57:14 <ihope> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic
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23:56:25 <calamari> SimonRC: still have a opy of that annotated listing?
00:00:37 <ihope> Th quick brown fox jumps ovr th lazy dog.
00:04:20 <ihope> Th qck brwn fx jmps vr th lz dg.
00:04:38 <ihope> I prefer omitting vowels to omitting consonants.
00:11:53 <ihope> AE E OI O EEA EEYI E A IE?
00:12:13 <ihope> R W GNG T RPT VRTHNG W SY TWC?
00:14:34 <lament> repetition is the key to enlightenment.
00:14:38 <SimonRC> "String Theory -- a theory whose computational requirement to produce an actual prediction is exceeded only by its number of variations."
00:14:50 <lament> repetition is the key to enlightenment.
00:17:26 <SimonRC> calamari: here it is, tell me when you've got it: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~sc/listing.txt
00:20:04 <ihope> Repetition is nice.
00:20:06 <ihope> Repetition is nice.
00:21:21 <SimonRC> I won't edit it any more, so you don't need to keep looking.
00:21:59 <lament> RReeppeettiittiioonn iiss nniiccee..
00:22:47 <calamari> SimonRC: nifty, it is a better listing, thanks
00:34:59 <ihope> HHHaaavvveee yyyooouuu ssseee eeennn TTTrrriiiggg gggeeerrr???
00:41:01 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/files/bf/barely.asm
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00:57:26 <ihope> How do you know I didn't just "/quit Excess Flood"?
00:58:38 <lament> if you did that, it would show up as ("Excess Flood")
00:58:44 <lament> but it shows up as (Excess Flood)
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00:59:58 <ihope> Hey, at least my flooding was done to a bot who didn't care :-P
01:05:37 <GregorR> Is there an interpreter I could add to EgoBot?
01:05:57 <calamari> sure, it's 59 bytes in size ;)
01:06:14 <GregorR> calamari: EgoBot runs on GNU/Linux, not DOS ;)
01:06:23 <calamari> GregorR: that's a good thing too
01:06:39 <SimonRC> calamari: I was wondering about 0136-0137...
01:06:47 <GregorR> Been playing around with it.
01:06:52 <calamari> did they finally solve their optimization problems?
01:06:56 <GregorR> The niceties of Java without the safety-scissors feeling.
01:07:06 <SimonRC> aren't the operands the wrong wa round?
01:07:12 <GregorR> calamari: Idonno, it seems to optimize without breaking in GDC *shrugs*
01:07:47 * calamari stops snooping around SimonRC's website and checks it out
01:09:10 <calamari> SimonRC: AH=02h, DL = char to write, INT 21h, Returns: AL = last character output
01:10:04 <calamari> SimonRC: we agree on that, right?
01:11:42 <calamari> but, in any case, I've tested output and it seems fine
01:11:54 <SimonRC> I thought DL was being used as a backup of AL
01:12:23 <SimonRC> I don't know how DOS interrupts work anyway.
01:13:10 <calamari> 10e-116 is the code that I like the least.. seems like I'm using too many bytes there
01:14:40 <calamari> SimonRC: not much to them, there is an interrupt vector table at 0000, 4 bytes for each interrupt, which tells it where in memory to go. INT 21h is used for MS-DOS functions
01:15:12 <SimonRC> except that ODS handles '20 too
01:15:37 <calamari> SimonRC: yes it uses quite a few
01:17:12 <SimonRC> how about "MOV CX,[SI]; ADD CL,BC"?
01:18:10 <SimonRC> is "CALL 01BC[CL]" possible?
01:18:11 <ihope> I have an idea: let no non-user post!
01:18:56 <ihope> Let no non-user edit the wiki...
01:19:07 <calamari> SimonRC: mov cx,[si] reads a word, but we don't know what the high byte will be
01:19:24 <SimonRC> calamari: I think that we can ignore it.
01:19:50 <calamari> SimonRC: can't use CX as an index register
01:20:28 <calamari> you can use BX, SI, DI, BP, combos of those,
01:20:58 <SimonRC> could you swap the purpose of BX and CX?
01:21:17 <SimonRC> only SI and DI are used for indexing ATM
01:21:19 <calamari> yes, but I would need to use bytes to clear CX
01:21:22 <ihope> Woot, somebody actually did my Graham's number thing...
01:21:41 <calamari> unless we wanted it to start at 255, which I guess isn't all bad
01:22:16 <calamari> yeah, and we don't want to mess with BP, because then we start messing with the stack
01:23:34 <calamari> otherwise loops are impossible
01:24:10 <SimonRC> ah, the only wa to reduce jmp
01:24:45 <SimonRC> couldn;t you just do lots of kkkkkk
01:24:57 <calamari> consider a loop ((((([...)))))] if I have a negative number and jump to the (((( then I still have to climb out of the negs, I don't start at zero like I did the first time
01:25:10 <calamari> ((( )) being the inc/dec of jmp
01:26:38 <calamari> I wrote a program to see what the lowest I could set for the add bx,.. it is 3.. 2 just barely breaks even so you can't get past
01:27:24 <calamari> I should check to see if the carry flag is always set when it gets there, then I can use ROL for the *2+1 action
01:27:59 <calamari> I think it might be because of the add CL
01:34:23 <calamari> well, that's strange.. maybe I don't understand ROL correctly
02:20:42 <ihope> Im to tirned to pty prob[erly.
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17:21:37 <calamari> hmm, /proc/kcore seems to be unusable
17:35:02 * SimonRC is appreciating Shelly the Republican.
17:35:03 <SimonRC> ... It is realy quite disgusting what some Democrats will do to discredit their opposition.
17:36:12 <GregorR-W> You say, as if Republicans don't do exactly the same.
17:36:26 <GregorR-W> It has nothing to do with the party affiliation, people (particularly politicians) are scum.
17:37:35 <SimonRC> Maybe I am being a bit hasty in a ssuming that Shelly is a Republican-discreditation strawman set up by Democrats.
17:39:53 * SimonRC turns down his "Troll" dial a bit.
17:43:15 * SimonRC has a set of conspiracy theories that any detestible thing any group appears to do is actually a fake set up by their opposition to make repel people from them.
17:43:20 <SimonRC> see: the sudden end of F4J, implausibly violent anti-animal experimentation protestors, many cases of apparent "terrorism".
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17:59:05 * SimonRC finds out about the amazing way that God designed (as an example) the banana to be perfect to be eaten by humans.
17:59:58 <SimonRC> ... Also that Einstein (a Jew) believed in God?
18:00:03 <SimonRC> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5479410612081345878
18:00:31 <SimonRC> in the interests of being more open-minded, I am watching it all, or listening, at least.
18:05:11 * SimonRC has never heard the "God of the gaps" idea demonstrated so well.
18:19:29 <SimonRC> Well, the most convincing argument for the existance of God they have is an irritatingly-ignorant Atheist.
18:20:08 <SimonRC> Ideas like scientific proof escaped her lips.
18:20:35 <nooga> wtf r u talking about ;p?
18:24:02 <SimonRC> Actually very interesting stuff, and handy if you are worried about confrontation-and-conversion-to-whatever-branch-of-Chrisitianity.
18:30:24 <nooga> theese arguments are idiotic
18:31:57 <nooga> all of them, ALL! can be explained by evolution theory
18:32:11 <nooga> the first car, was awkward
18:33:08 <nooga> first human was not so perfect
18:34:03 <GregorR-W> Because of inefficiencies in the brain.
18:34:52 <nooga> why computers need defrag ;d
18:35:14 <GregorR-W> Because of inefficiencies in the filesystem if you're not using ext3 ;)
18:35:38 <GregorR-W> That's actually a very good metaphore.
18:36:59 <nooga> they were ext3 ppl
18:37:39 <nooga> i heard about man who was bound to remember EVERYTHING he saw
18:38:16 <nooga> very aggresive autism in his case
18:38:28 <nooga> but he was normal if you saw him
18:38:44 <nooga> he talked, walked and everything
18:39:14 <nooga> but it was terrible to him to remember all those things
18:45:30 <nooga> i guess i'm an agnostic
18:47:49 <nooga> eye was developed from very basic and simple light receptors
18:48:06 <nooga> ..of simple underwater creatures
18:48:15 <nooga> same as digital camera
18:48:19 <GregorR-W> I love how everybody uses the eye as an example, because it was in On the Origin of Species.
18:48:37 <GregorR-W> WITH the counterargument, mind you.
18:48:56 <nooga> i don't understand ;d
18:49:10 <nooga> what do you mean "On the Origin of Species"?
18:53:47 <nooga> hm, a human is just another object
18:54:14 <nooga> like tree or even soda can
18:54:33 <nooga> killing is just disabling that object
18:54:51 <nooga> just like disabling your cell phone
18:55:16 <GregorR-W> You appear to be forming an anti-scientific-materialist argument here.
18:55:42 <nooga> but beings are just machines
18:56:05 <nooga> but still machines, some are concious
18:58:29 <nooga> and dead human is jus like crashed car, computer etc. but 'killing' cars or computers is less emotional process than killing a human
19:00:53 <GregorR-W> I don't know that the concepts are wrong, but I hope you're not making the implications that I think you're making.
19:02:21 <nooga> only psychopatic criminals can apply this to their ethical codex
19:04:43 <nooga> i guess that crying for help when someone wants to crush your head with axe is a reflex, jus like taking back your hand when touched something hot
19:06:52 <nooga> pain and fear are just to preserve beings (machines) from autodestruction
19:07:55 <GregorR-W> Instinctive emotions such as fear and pain have evolved from the need for self-preservation, which is implicit in the need to reproduce.
19:08:56 <nooga> so disabling a being is related with causing pain and fear
19:10:52 <nooga> and if you're not psychopatic killer, you will know that killing is bad, because you are so complex to imagine that you are the victim and it is extremely unpleasant and that if you're dead you can't have any descendants
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19:12:10 <nooga> and that natural knowledge that killing is bad is good for species
19:12:28 <GregorR-W> Reminds me of a scene from Family Guy (?). This guy in prison was going to stab Peter, but Peter wasn't there so he goes "I wonder what this is like ..." and stabs himself. "OW! Is that what that feels like? I deserve to be in here."
19:13:06 <nooga> it must have been funny
19:13:45 * SimonRC considers the unmaintainable buggy spagghetti code consisting entirely of patches that is our DNA, and decides God didn't do a very good design job.
19:14:24 <GregorR-W> Worst solution to a bad copying mechanism ever.
19:14:30 <nooga> sure, try to write such long brainfuck program
19:14:36 <GregorR-W> "Every time I copy a chunk of code, I lose some at the ends." "So just put garbage at the ends!"
19:14:50 <SimonRC> Darwin's stuff is rather out-of-date, his examples are often bad ones, and his theory is by modern standards over-simplified.
19:15:25 <GregorR-W> Part of why using the eye from his book is dumb ;)
19:15:50 <SimonRC> Darwin is like Copernicus. He was wrong in many ways, but his importance was due to what he threw away, rather than what he kept.
19:16:02 <nooga> heheh w rzeczy samej
19:16:26 <nooga> excuse me, wrong language =.=
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19:19:27 <nooga> ChanServ is back OR back of ChanServ?
19:19:58 <GregorR-W> "the back of ChanServ" wouldn't be a valid, complete sentence.
19:20:07 <SimonRC> Actually, they *did* have a point that (more convincing) proof of God's existance could be "out there".
19:20:36 <nooga> ChanServ wrocil LUB plecy ChanServa
19:21:01 * SimonRC puts a babelfish in his ear.
19:22:42 * nooga goes back to coding his compiler by hand
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19:24:33 <SimonRC> nooga: which compiler, and how else would one do it?
19:27:34 <SimonRC> Real Languages have parser combinators libraries. ;-)
19:28:42 <nooga> i'm using a recursive parser
19:31:07 <nooga> my english is soooooooooo damn simple
19:34:12 <kate`> if you're after a parser for C, i'd recommend sid
19:34:33 <kate`> which is LL, but can tranform sane LR grammars behind the scenes for you
19:34:49 <kate`> (so you get the readability of LR, and the effeciency of LL)
19:35:25 <kate`> what language was that?
19:35:47 <kate`> <nooga> ChanServ wrocil LUB plecy ChanServa
19:36:32 <kate`> actually, i don't speak polish at all, just what's similar to czech
19:37:33 <nooga> zahlastana fifulka means a magical flute?
19:37:34 <kate`> afk, vitally important meeting
19:39:13 <nooga> guys: am I right that we have a woman on board? x.X
19:42:30 <kipple> maybe kate is a male name in czekh
19:45:38 <kipple> what do you call a person from the Czech republic, by the way? czechish or czechian or something else?
19:48:01 <nooga> "czech" and "czeszka" mean male and female from Czech republic, "czesi" means people from there, "Czeski" means a czech language and "czeski" a thing from czech republic ... in Polish
19:48:14 * sekhmet re-lurks for another eight months or so
19:48:40 <nooga> to make it more funny "czaszka" means a skull
19:50:38 <kipple> sekhmet: you were right. (according to dictionary.com)
19:51:01 <kipple> that was some quick 8 months
19:51:02 <nooga> i've got same dilema with Sweden
19:51:12 <sekhmet> I was actually going to look it up there, but then decided that it probably wouldn't be there
19:51:39 <sekhmet> kipple: You didn't notice, but the earth suddenly sped away and came back at near lightspeed, leaving me behind
19:51:42 <kipple> a swedish person is called a swede
19:51:57 <sekhmet> It's a wonder everyone wasn't liquefied in the process
19:52:58 <kipple> hehe. it appears a polish person is called a pole :)
19:53:11 <nooga> yeah south pole ;p
19:53:23 <nooga> and you can polish your silver spoons
20:00:34 <sekhmet> I tend to have a lot of nervous energy, so I fidget and tap my foot etc...
20:00:59 <sekhmet> ... was having dinner with a few friends, one of whom is Polish, and it turns out I had kind of been tapping his shin under the table for awhile
20:01:13 <sekhmet> And when I realized it I said something about "oh, sorry, I thought I was kicking the pole"
20:01:23 <sekhmet> Everyone had a good chuckle about that, and it took me a few minutes to figure out why
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22:07:39 <kate`> kipple, actually i'm english :)
22:10:26 <lament> A russian person is called a Rus.
22:10:35 <lament> Hence the name of the russian toy store, ToysRUs
22:14:43 <jix> how do you call a german person?
22:14:57 <jix> not a germ?
22:15:06 <kate`> only if wallmart sells walls for martians
22:15:16 <GregorR-W> So, umm, there's a purportedly female person in #esoteric :P
22:15:42 <kate`> there won't be for long, if it's a point of contention
22:15:51 <jix> there was one female person here that thought this was about esoteric and not esoteric programming..
22:15:59 <GregorR-W> We've looked in to it in the past.
22:16:11 <GregorR-W> Hahahah, she asked about psychic connections and such XD
22:16:40 <kate`> programing languages and other interests are mutually exclusive?
22:17:08 <GregorR-W> I would make EgoBot say hi but it's down >_>
22:17:19 <GregorR-W> So I'll just give the command and we can imagine it said something:
22:17:25 <kate`> i have to ask - what's it written in?
22:17:30 <GregorR-W> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hi kate`!"(_o)o.?]}
22:18:02 <GregorR-W> EgoBot is written in PERSONAL_PREFERENCE({"C", "C++", "Perl", "Python", "Ruby"});
22:18:21 <jix> thou shalt not code c++ ;)
22:18:33 <GregorR-W> jix: I'm learning to love D in C++'s stead :P
22:18:55 <kate`> a funge would suit an irc bot well, i suspect
22:19:02 <jix> write it in subskin!
22:19:02 <kate`> being essentially a large switch-case
22:19:19 <GregorR-W> kate`: EgoBot runs esoteric language interpreters :P
22:19:40 <GregorR-W> Can't really be done from *funge unless you want to write the interpreter in *funge 8-X
22:20:19 <jix> gn8 everyone
22:20:34 <jix> i'm afk for 4 days...
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22:22:49 <kipple> so, gregor, what's wrong with the bot?
22:23:19 <GregorR-W> Just I can't turn it back on from here.
22:23:44 <kipple> you need to write a bot that can turn on egobot when it goes down...
22:24:03 <GregorR-W> kipple: The backdoor into my system went down too :P
22:26:22 <GregorR-W> Hence why I'm on as GregorR-W from work, btw.
22:27:36 <kate`> which bit of intel do you work for?
22:28:11 <GregorR-W> kate`: IT, I maintain an internal collection of open source software across different UNIXen to be used internally.
22:28:14 <kate`> i think the only things of theirs i really enjoyed were the i960 and the SA110 (if i have that right - that recent strongarm)
22:28:25 <kate`> no bunnysuit, then
22:28:48 <GregorR-W> The Intel graphics cards are surprisingly decent, all things considered.
22:29:33 <kipple> they have graphics cards? thought they only did integrated graphics
22:29:39 <kate`> i'm afraid i wouldn't know - i desperatley avoid anything vaguley graphical
22:30:01 <kate`> (partially since i work for a digital signage company)
22:30:05 <GregorR-W> kipple: Erm, yeah, the integrated graphics [cards] ;)
22:31:01 <kate`> advertising; those dreadful plasma and lcd screens we wish weren't in our fields of vision
22:31:20 <kate`> (i am not in sales, you might be able to tell)
22:32:24 <GregorR-W> So have you ever got a Piet interpreter outputting debugging info on a digital advert sign? ^^
22:36:58 <kate`> i think using R for demographic analaysis is about as exciting as that company gets
22:37:51 <kate`> kipple, an gpl'd clone of S+
22:38:04 <GregorR-W> kipple: Language for statistical analyses IIRC
22:38:53 <kate`> GregorR-W, i spend my time waiting to leave, mostly. that time is filled with deleting our previous week's work, and architecting a new design for each specification change on my boss's whim
22:39:56 <kate`> i just recieved a cheque for my work in december...
22:42:32 <kate`> they don't do any favours for the typical image of advertisers
22:42:48 <kate`> suffice to say, they care more about money than quality or happyness
22:48:01 <ihope> So the regex /(C(++)?|Perl|Python|Ruby)/ will match the language EgoBot is written in?
22:48:22 <ihope> /(C(\+\+)?|Perl|Python|Ruby)/, maybe.
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23:11:54 <kipple> I take that as a yes... :)
23:29:12 <GregorR-W> This tool is so ridiculously simple, it'll compile on just about any C compiler that complies to any sort of standard.
23:33:45 <kate`> are you using HP-UX's ANSI C compiler product, or the purposefully not full compiler that is included just for compiling the kernel?
23:39:24 <GregorR-W> I'm using GCC when possible, but it always tries with its ANSI C first "just in case it works"
23:39:58 <kate`> and you're sure that's the real compiler product, not the free limited one?
23:40:23 <GregorR-W> You do realize that the people who set up the HP-UX system used by Intel aren't idiots? :)
23:40:47 <kate`> it dosen't hurt to check :)
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23:42:36 <kate`> GregorR-W, if you really want to find out what's going on with that program, try it under TenDRA - which'll give you references to whichever paragraph of whichever ISO states that its errors are errors, and why
23:43:02 <GregorR-W> kate`: I don't really care, if I had it my way we wouldn't support HP-UX at all ^^
23:44:13 <calamari> (as he currently types in #freebsd)
23:44:18 <kate`> not that i wish to accidentally start the "my os is bigger than your os" discussion, but personally i much prefer hp-ux to linux
23:44:49 <calamari> kate`: your os is bigger than my os.. only 512 bytes :(
23:45:33 <calamari> I think I released bos under the gpl
23:45:52 <GregorR-W> calamari: I was referring to HP-UX vs GNU/Linux
23:46:02 <kate`> zealotry makes you exclude yourself from a lot of fun things, imo
23:46:12 <kipple> calamari: is it only 512 bytes?
23:46:31 <GregorR-W> Fun things I want nothing to do with, because they're proprietary things X-P (Circular logic rocks by the way)
23:46:34 <kate`> calamari, it fits into the ... right :)
23:47:20 <kate`> GregorR-W, that sounds rather dull to me
23:47:55 <calamari> kate`: ask him which Linux distro he uses ;)
23:48:31 <GregorR-W> Yeah - they've been doing some political things I don't like.
23:48:45 <GregorR-W> The distro from a pragmatic standpoint is solid, but they keep getting more commercial :'(
23:49:07 <GregorR-W> Because Ubuntu is just Debian + no useful fixes.
23:49:21 <kate`> i tend to use openbsd or solaris for most things
23:49:30 <kate`> (most things being servers and such)
23:49:46 <GregorR-W> They tried to make it easier, but didn't even improve the installer, come on.
23:49:56 <GregorR-W> That's the #1 problem with Debian and they hardly touched it.
23:50:05 <GregorR-W> It installs fine: With a text-based installer that's not easy for newbs.
23:50:14 <kate`> i dislike the idea that all an OS is, is the package system and installation mechanism
23:50:25 <calamari> kate`: but thats the truth of it
23:50:41 <calamari> distros are all alike, basically
23:50:43 <GregorR-W> GNU/Linux often makes it hard/impossible to draw the line between "OS" and "user software"
23:50:54 <kate`> calamari, that's why i said OS, not linux distribution
23:51:21 <GregorR-W> Is just the kernel the OS? libc? The c compiler? Other low level libraries? The shell? X11? Gnome or KDE?
23:51:27 <kate`> frankly i couldn't care less what package system is in place, as long as it install packages and dosen't get in my way
23:51:28 <calamari> kate`: bos has no packaging system, is it still an OS? :)
23:52:56 <kate`> GregorR-W, you're still thinking in terms of grouping software that exists elsewhere together - that dosen't create a new thing, it's just a collection of old things
23:53:20 <kate`> indeed, KDE is a clone of old concepts, for example
23:53:34 <GregorR-W> I'm not sure where your train of logic is leading.
23:53:36 <kate`> there're no new conceptual inventions there
23:53:48 <calamari> kate`: programs are just a grouping of old opcodes.. so no softweare is new?
23:54:09 <kate`> calamari, no more so than new books being groupings of old words
23:54:17 <kate`> calamari, this is the straw man argument, right?
23:54:31 <calamari> kate`: no, I was trying to expose your logical fallacy
23:54:41 <kate`> calamari, feel free :)
23:54:49 <kate`> GregorR-W, it's leading to some sort of research, instead of cloning pre-existing ideas into new implementations
23:55:02 <kate`> GregorR-W, plan9 is a decent example
23:55:32 <kate`> calamari, i'm talking about designs, not implemenations - kde is a new implementation of old designs. i'm after new designs
23:55:50 <kate`> calamari, the same applies to every other level in the system
23:55:50 <GregorR-W> Still not seeing what point you're trying to prove >_>
23:55:51 <calamari> kate`: sometimes the old design is fine.. why does there need to be a new one?
23:56:03 <kate`> calamari, sometimes it is, indeed
23:56:26 <kate`> calamari, did you have anything in mind there?
23:56:41 <calamari> imo, os's could improve by becoming smaller and faster.. not by adding more features and becoming more bloated
23:57:10 <kate`> GregorR-W, that none of these really furthers our ideas; they're endless refinements and reimplementations of the same thing
23:57:18 <calamari> I recently installed networking tools in MS-DOS because it boots in 1 second
23:57:31 <kate`> calamari, i am not suggesting to add features to an existing system
23:57:38 <calamari> rather than waiting minutes for linux to load up
23:57:49 <GregorR-W> I think that refinements, reimplementations, re* can actually create new things. It doesn't have to be entirely new from the ground up to be new.
23:57:53 <kate`> (for the record, i can't stand feature-bloat)
23:58:11 <kate`> GregorR-W, in rare cases, i agree
23:58:21 <calamari> btw kate`, how did you find the chan?
23:58:42 <kate`> GregorR-W, and it can be new within a given domain, too - that interests me very much (TenDRA falls into that category)
23:58:56 <kate`> calamari, lament mentioned it in #postgresql
23:59:51 <kate`> calamari, the sort of thing i'm talking about (which jon bentley calls "Conceptual blockbusting") is something like, say - the filesystem: why does that exist? files are a concept we could do without
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00:00:30 <kate`> and was a little disconcerted to find that when he returned home, he'd turned into a giant insect
00:00:41 <calamari> kate`: and what alternative are you suggesting
00:01:08 <kate`> calamari, for this example, to store objects directly, instead of serialising them (files are serialisations of objects)
00:01:28 <kate`> calamari, that's not even a new idea, but it emphasises how stuck-in-a-rut we are in our ways
00:01:46 <kate`> the "it's always been this way" or "this works, why change it" train of thought disgusts me
00:01:55 <calamari> disks store bits in a serial fashion, even if they are random access
00:02:09 <kate`> yes, at a much lower level than we're talking about
00:02:31 <kate`> so does your ram: do you treat your structs as a string?
00:03:26 <kate`> imagine you have a jpeg: the first thing you do is parse it into a tree
00:03:34 <kate`> when you're done, you serialise that tree back to a file
00:03:47 <kate`> why not store the parsed tree in the first place?
00:04:05 <kate`> OS/400 (iirc) did this
00:04:16 <kate`> we seem to have forgotten about the idea
00:08:22 <kipple> hmm. interesting discussion :)
00:08:48 <kate`> if you think so, you may enjoy this: http://www.mca-ltd.com/martin/Ten15/introduction.html
00:09:02 <kipple> about the jpeg example: how is that a fault in the OS, and not the jpeg file format?
00:09:09 <SimonRC> (BTW, kate`, the answer is UNIX, with files-as-byte-streams. See the essay "The rise of Worse-is-Better")
00:09:31 <kate`> SimonRC, thanks :)
00:09:51 <kate`> kipple, it's the fault of the concept of a file existing at all: this is nothing specific for jpeg
00:10:06 <kate`> kipple, your XML document is not a bunch of ascii: it's a DOM tree
00:10:17 <kate`> kipple, ditto your haskell program
00:10:20 <SimonRC> see: smalltalk, with its "system image"
00:10:48 <kipple> but since the hardware is serial everything has to be stored serialized. the difference is just at what level the serialization occurs
00:11:03 <SimonRC> also, VMS, with its "indexed files" (database tables).
00:11:09 <kate`> kipple, yes, but this is a much lower level
00:11:35 <kate`> SimonRC, indeed :)
00:11:55 <kate`> SimonRC, i recognise this essay, btw
00:12:16 <SimonRC> some list terps saved and restored a memory image every weekend instead of doing run-time GC. :-D
00:13:08 * SimonRC really goes to bed this time.
00:14:29 <kipple> I'm not sure I completely understand what you want, but doesn't modern virtual machines like java and .NET do something like that?
00:15:29 <kate`> kipple, sure, a .NET OS would be equivalent. why has it taken since the mid 80s to appear?
00:15:43 <kate`> (it'd also be humonosly less beautiful, i bet)
00:16:07 <kate`> ten15 was around so much earler - and so were other beautiful examples
00:16:25 <kate`> the essay SimonRC mentioned explains why: "worse is better" has better survival characteristics
00:16:30 <kate`> i.e. they win because of marketing
00:19:52 <kate`> http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
00:20:04 <kate`> "Once the virus has spread, there will be pressure to improve it, possibly by increasing its functionality closer to 90%, but users have already been conditioned to accept worse than the right thing."
00:20:29 <kate`> compare that to the ideas earlier for small incremental improvements (adding features, etc)
00:20:38 <kate`> and see how heavily ingrained that concept has become
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16:03:03 <ihope_> No conversation in over TWELVE HOURS.
16:44:06 <kipple> that's rather common in this channel...
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17:22:51 <nooga> why egobot is not here?
17:54:15 <Baughn> His creator had an acute attack of humility
17:57:17 <Baughn> Saturn was in presentile conjunction with mars, causing fear of morbidity in all egobot creators.
18:00:05 <Baughn> kate`: ..what, do you want your palm read?
18:01:35 <kate`> there're people doing that in town - if the process didn't involve giving them money, i'd try it, just to see what they have to say
18:02:04 <kipple> a bit hard to read the palm over IRC...
18:02:18 <kate`> i could draw it in ascii art
18:02:42 <Baughn> Hah. A *true* palm reader can see your palm even across half a planet.
18:04:51 <kipple> hmm. an online palm reading service... that could be a good business plan :D
18:05:56 <kipple> "please place your palm on your mouse and sit still for 10 seconds while concentrating on positive energies"
18:06:28 <nooga> AAAAAA NOOOO! attack of the VIDEO-TAPE-RECORDER-MAN!!! ...again?!
18:08:29 <nooga> kipple: that's damn good idea, i think i'll implement it because i've got loads of free time
18:08:47 <Baughn> Mouse? "Please place your palm on the screen for ten seconds while we scan it. (See this visible moving line)"
18:09:20 <nooga> but if someone has an optical mouse
18:09:56 <nooga> with this terrifying red laser eye
18:11:09 * kate` goes to sort through bank stuff
18:12:04 <kipple> "for extra accurate palm readings please purchase our patented USB palm scanner for only $299.99"
18:13:03 <nooga> i bet that there is a group of pph who would be ready to buy it
18:23:59 <nooga> online church fete store? ;d
18:24:14 <nooga> or selling church fetes on ebay
18:25:14 <nooga> AFAIK it's a deletion of all your sins
18:25:40 <nooga> of them... depends on price ;d
18:26:37 <nooga> quite popular in middle ages
18:27:46 <SimonRC> put my list of grades through: plot . zip [1..] . map (log . (100-)) . sort and you get an almost straight line :-S
18:30:05 <SimonRC> except for the grade of 100%, which goes wrong
18:30:26 <SimonRC> heh: "But after a while I learned the trick of speaking fast. You don't have to think any faster; just use twice as many words to say everything."
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21:28:58 <calamari> I guess you're sleep chatting? :)
21:29:50 <ihope_> One could say that :-)
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22:45:37 <SimonRC> I heard about a guy who would cook meals in his sleep
22:45:45 <SimonRC> He was a professional chef.
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23:22:58 <calamari> got another interp down to 42 bytes.. was hoping for smaller
23:23:24 <lament> what does it interpret?
23:24:18 <graue> is that 42 bytes for the binary?
23:25:45 <calamari> graue: btw, curious if you implemented those spam changes that were posted
23:27:47 <calamari> I think the best solution, if code is changing, is to implement a password box.. then the browser can save the password
23:28:09 <calamari> I doubt very much if the spammers will bother to update their code for one wiki
23:28:36 <calamari> I did this on the qemu wiki and haven't had any spam since
23:29:31 <calamari> of course the password is printed right next to the box.. basically the simplest captcha possible
23:36:48 <ihope> So it would be a machine-readable CAPTCHA, pretty much?
23:37:28 <calamari> yes, but as long as no machine implements it, who cares
23:38:00 <calamari> another idea along the same lines is to change the html so the form is different
23:38:19 <calamari> wikipedia hides values in the form
23:38:39 <calamari> but this is slightly better I think, because it doesn't rely on browser tricks
23:39:46 <calamari> sorry, didn't explain that ery well, did I
23:41:35 <calamari> wikipedia sends a value with the editing page, whihc the browser automaically submits back to them, so they know it was a browser
23:51:09 <pgimeno> an even simpler captcha method is what I implemented in a phpBB forum a few weeks ago
23:51:25 <pgimeno> "Always check this checkbox: [ ]"
23:51:52 <pgimeno> http://lordkiri.lo.funpic.org/ (when trying to post)
23:52:22 <pgimeno> spam is no longer a problem there
23:53:55 <pgimeno> (besides, there's another change that is not relevant here: when registering a new user, no URL is allowed)
23:55:57 <pgimeno> I mean, the "Web page" field *must* be blank
23:56:08 <pgimeno> there were massive registrations of spammers
23:56:20 <pgimeno> to increase Google rating, I suppose
23:57:40 <pgimeno> of course I also changed the "Web page" title for the field to "Leave this blank"
23:57:43 <calamari> btw, did you have the confirm of email addresses in place?
23:57:54 <pgimeno> yes but spammers didn't care
23:58:16 <pgimeno> I suppose they just wanted the address to appear in the user list
23:58:27 <pgimeno> (the users appear in the list even if not active)
23:59:01 <pgimeno> either that, or they don't care whether the email activation feature is in effect
00:00:05 * calamari wonders if graue is still here
00:00:59 <calamari> hmm, that checkbox captcha could also be strengthened by assigning the input a random name
00:01:40 <pgimeno> my advantage is that spammers probably don't speak spanish, hehe
00:01:46 <calamari> then they couldn't hardcode for it
00:02:31 <pgimeno> isn't there a captcha plugin for Wikimedia?
00:02:52 <calamari> yes but that is bad to use because it is standard
00:03:25 <calamari> it is preferrable to be nonstandard so that they dont bother to fix it for oner wiki
00:04:36 <pgimeno> captcha images were beaten by means of free pr0n webs AFAIK
00:06:31 <calamari> I wonder if sites like driverguide are doing the same
00:12:22 <ihope> Wait... just how were they broken?
00:17:15 <calamari> ,,,,,,,,/ dzzzz fffffffffffffffffffff nb.bbbbbbbbbbn h t; n kyy
00:26:12 <pgimeno> ihope: "Enter the code in this image to access this free-porn site"; the image comes from the site to crack and the user input is redirected to the captcha field
00:26:36 <pgimeno> there are enough users as to spam as hell
00:27:32 <graue> calamari: your OISC interpreter is 10 bytes longer than the longest program I ever wrote directly in machine code
00:27:56 <graue> have you posted it somewhere?
00:28:14 <calamari> no, not yet. I need to test it first.
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00:42:22 <calamari> graue: what do you think of the checkbox idea? it can be very basic, then get more advanced if they ever bother to adapt
00:43:36 <ihope> "Check half these boxes: [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]"
00:43:59 <calamari> ihope: lol, that's too much work
00:44:31 <calamari> ihope: easier is to implement the changing name code, then have them type a password, etc
00:44:34 <ihope> "Check half these boxes: [ ] [ ]"
00:45:11 <calamari> ihope: wouldn't that be backwards compatible with the original? :)
00:45:39 <lament> "Check half these boxes: [ ] [ ] [ ]"
00:45:52 <pgimeno> "How many boobs does an amazon woman have? [______]"
00:46:22 <lament> "Check half these boxes: [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]"
00:46:28 <ihope> "What should we do with the drunken sailor? [____________]"
00:46:51 <ihope> lament: I could just check every other one.
00:47:11 <pgimeno> "How many bottles of beer are there in the wall? [___]"
00:47:14 <calamari> lament: pretty sure that would be effective to stop real posts :)
00:47:49 <lament> "Prove the Jordan curve theorem: [_________________]"
00:48:13 <ihope> "Enter the full text of the Bible: [_]"
00:49:18 <lament> "Enter word 89 on the page 323 of The Manual: [_____]"
00:49:49 <ihope> Find the prime factorization of this number: 740375634795617128280467960974295731425931888892312890849362326389727650340282662768919964196251178439958943305021275853701189680982867331732731089309 00552505116877063299072396380786710086096962537934650563796359
00:50:04 <ihope> [___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________] [___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________]
00:50:34 <pgimeno> "[___________________________] 42"
00:51:30 <lament> "This is a position from the 1977 World Chess Championship. Kasparov just went Nxb6. Where should you play? [__]"
00:51:34 <pgimeno> which is, incidentally, the number of bytes of calamari's interpreter
00:51:59 <ihope> "Enter a string that matches the regexes /a.*/ and /b.*/: [_______]"
00:53:19 <lament> "Enter the number of virgins that await the faithful in heaven: [__]"
00:55:15 <ihope> "Enter the first digit of the last prime number: [_]"
00:55:41 <lament> "Enter the last digit of the first prime number: [_]"
00:56:03 <pgimeno> that reminds me of a recent news article in the spanish press
00:56:57 <pgimeno> it said something like "X and Y have found that the number Pi has MORE THAN 300,000,000 DIGITS"
00:57:13 <pgimeno> so, "Enter the last digit of pi: [_]" would do
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00:58:54 <pgimeno> someone should have said the reporter that the decimal expression of 1/3 has... more than 400,000,000!
00:59:09 <pgimeno> (even if ! is taken as a factorial sign)
01:01:30 <lament> dr. evil pinky-in-mouth gesture
01:01:48 <lament> three hundred MILLION digits!!!!!
01:02:30 <ihope> http://3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592.com/
01:04:03 <pgimeno> (just checked, sorry, it was actually 51 billion digits... not sure if the decimal expression of 1/3 beats that, I would have to check)
01:11:44 <pgimeno> <lament> "Prove the Jordan curve theorem: [_________________]"
01:11:56 <pgimeno> nah, systems like Coq or Mizar could do that automatically
01:15:10 <pgimeno> how about "Enter a BF program that outputs the number <random number>: [_________]" and interpret user input?
01:16:36 <ihope> What if the user input "+[>+]"?
01:17:47 <pgimeno> impose a cycle limit, e.g. for number N never let it run for more than k*log(N) for suitable k
01:18:41 <lament> or something equally bizarre
01:18:42 <ihope> lament: that's the number of digits, more or less
01:19:25 <ihope> Then giving that the number 9837491257 would probably still cause problems.
01:19:32 <lament> pgimeno: mizar never "proved" anything automatically
01:19:57 <lament> pgimeno: it just verified that proof made by people.
01:20:32 <pgimeno> I know, I was just kidding
01:22:30 <ihope> "Enter a regex that matches a number of the letter 'a' a number of times that is coprime to 938475: [_________________]"
01:23:35 <pgimeno> lament: anyway it's already proved there: http://www.mizar.org/ (announced in the index page itself)
01:24:49 <ihope> lament: it would have to match any such string
01:28:10 <pgimeno> /a/ matches "aa", "aaa", "aaaaaaa", etc. as required
01:29:04 <pgimeno> oops, "aaa" should not be there
01:29:58 <pgimeno> maybe you want that any other string is NOT matched?
01:31:17 <pgimeno> ah, that's harder to accomplish then
01:31:19 <ihope> And I want it to consume the entire string, as well.
01:31:46 <ihope> Anyway, it still should be possible.
01:32:18 <ihope> If the number were 6, it would be /(a|aaaaa)(aaaaaa)*/.
01:33:38 <pgimeno> provided you add ^ and $, I guess
01:33:59 <ihope> Well, if we assume the regex must match the whole string, then...
01:34:35 <ihope> Harder: "Enter a regex that matches a number of the letter 'a' a prime number of times, assuming that 938475 is prime but no lower number is: [_________________]"
01:34:55 <pgimeno> I was just being picky because PHP is picky with me :)
01:36:07 <pgimeno> gtg now, it's 2:35 am here... good night
01:39:57 <calamari> found ab ug but realized a way to get it down to 40
01:42:10 <lament> Enter a prime number: [___]
01:42:18 <graue> but now its size is no longer equal to life, the universe, and everything :(
01:42:43 <graue> add some features to bring it back up 2 bytes, calamari
01:43:00 <graue> like maybe add a debugger -- you can do that in 2 bytes, right?
01:44:40 <calamari> guess I have plenty of room for that debugger now ;P
01:46:22 <calamari> I could strip 2 more bytes, but then the source files couldn't be ascii
01:51:27 <lament> We should hold a contest for the coolest program of length 42
01:52:43 <lament> calamari would probably win, though
01:53:11 <calamari> nah, 4 nops would detract from coolness
01:53:55 <ihope> "[-]+[]!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
01:55:02 <lament> ihope: but that's not very cool.
01:56:19 <lament> "QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ"
01:56:32 <lament> prints a pretty-looking square in HQ9+
01:57:07 <lament> (actually, it probably doesn't.)
01:57:29 <lament> change that last Q to a newline.
02:32:32 <calamari> reading the program is just under half the code now :)
02:38:37 <calamari> yay, the equivalent of "[-]" seems to be working
02:39:04 <calamari> well, it's a major pain to write better programs.. working on it :)
02:42:56 <graue> what good is an OISC interpreter?
02:44:51 <graue> well, it doesn't do input or output
02:45:20 <calamari> (well, still writing the program to verify that :)
02:45:22 <graue> how? memory-mapped?
02:45:33 <calamari> no, it uses ms-dos function calls
02:45:46 <graue> what? how do you do MS-DOS function calls in OISC?
02:46:07 <calamari> it isn't oisc, its based on oisc
02:46:27 <graue> well, it's not a very portable language if you need MS-DOS function calls to use it
02:46:30 <calamari> basically, it was my inspiration, then I optimized for size
02:46:43 <calamari> graue: this isn't about portability, it's about raw size
02:47:15 <graue> I know the implementation isn't portable, but it would be nice if the implemented language was
02:47:29 <calamari> well, the turing complete part of the language is portable
02:47:45 <calamari> and the i/o part can also be coded
02:48:21 <calamari> esp since Linux ELF executables can't be less than 45 bytes
02:51:02 <calamari> the language works like this: aaaa vv jjjj
02:51:34 <calamari> first it adds your offset aaaa to the memory pointer (adding a neg is like subtracting)
02:51:48 <calamari> then, it checks vv.. if 0, then it performs a system call
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02:52:09 <calamari> otherwise, it adds vv to the byte at the memory pointer (again with the negs)
02:52:50 <calamari> if the byte at the memory pointer is 0, then it adds jjjj to the ip, otherwise it continues to the next instruction
03:29:18 * SimonRC lols at the above captchas
03:33:21 <SimonRC> calamari: you could get a lot more speed by doing a less-than, rather than an equality test
03:33:42 <SimonRC> 'cause a<=b and b<=a means a=b
03:39:52 <calamari> got it :) nponnnnmimnnonnnlonnnpnnnnnnnn
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04:51:36 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/files/bf/miniscul.asm
04:51:39 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/files/bf/miniscul.com
05:39:42 <calamari> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Miniscule
05:44:36 <calamari> changed caps to http://esolangs.org/wiki/MinISCule
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14:30:03 <ihope> ChatZilla's nice, but it does too many alert thingies.
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16:09:59 <SimonRC> RMS has finally lost it: http://software.newsforge.com/software/06/04/28/1648203.shtml?tid=150
16:16:30 <SimonRC> Slashdotter #1: "Autographs are only the beginning. I hear a Richard Stallman nude calendar is in the pipeline!" Slashdotter #2: "He threatens to display it at the next LinuxWorld conference unless a donation of $100,000 to the FSF is made."
16:55:21 <ihope> I forgot the question, but the answer is NIN No MD No 18WPI.
18:31:34 <ihope> The answer is NIN No MD No 18WPI.
20:20:03 <ihope> It's asy to undrstand popl vn without th bnfit of 's.
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21:40:09 <SimonRC> ihope: whate does int-e mean?
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21:45:05 <GregorR> It's an integral in the army ... with no sign bit.
21:47:36 <int-e> SimonRC: a play on my initials and intel opcodes. the nick is old.
21:49:28 <SimonRC> int-e: do you know any ASM lang other than intel?
21:50:35 <int-e> not really. I've seen MIPS (and coded a bit on the strange simulated machine that SPIM provides), and I've done a bit of Z80 assembly ages ago.
21:51:27 <ihope> MIPS and SPIM, eh?
21:52:02 <SimonRC> I was hoping you would be really experienced and be able to tell me that one was clearly the best asm lang ever.
21:52:56 <ihope> Well, so what's the opcode?
21:53:47 <SimonRC> used to ask the OS to do something, usually
21:54:15 <SimonRC> What is wrong with a plain function call I do not know.
21:54:21 <int-e> not so much anymore with the advent of the sysenter instruction (at least on newer x86)
21:54:35 <int-e> and never on mips, they have a trap instruction I think
21:54:51 * SimonRC does know x86 well enought to understand that
21:54:55 <ihope> So when do we get functional machine code?
21:55:00 * SimonRC does *not* know x86 well enought to understand that
21:55:01 <int-e> SimonRC: simple. a plain function call can not escape the memory protection (provided by the mmu)
21:55:25 <SimonRC> ihope: I believe there is one already
21:55:38 <int-e> in earlier days, code size also played a role - an int instruction is 2 bytes, a far call is 5 ...
21:55:50 <int-e> (talking 16 bit x86 code now)
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22:28:46 <int-e> try /join #realworld ;)
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