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00:37:35 <ihope> Does anybody actually know what Jesus looked like?
00:38:36 <lament> like a pumpkin with leathery wings
00:39:29 * ihope pretends lament never said anything
00:39:51 <ihope> If not, it's pretty ironic how pictures of him are so easily recognized as pictures of him.
00:41:11 <SimonRC> Q: "Where do Russian hackers live?"
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00:43:58 <lament> ihope: don't discount my information so easily
00:44:04 <lament> ihope: trust me, i know what i'm talking about
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01:18:06 <GregorR> Pictures of him are easily recognized as pictures of him because they invented what he looked like in the middle ages and have stuck with that invented image since.
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02:37:12 <GregorR> They didn't make a lot of portraits of government dissidents in ancient Rome.
02:38:16 <GregorR> *the ancient Roman empire (outside of Rome proper)
02:53:18 <wildhalcyon> I don't know if I would say "invented" is the right term - most of the paintings of jesus that we have are patterned after a 15th century prince. His name escapes me at the moment...
02:54:58 <wildhalcyon> as far as ihope's question earlier: some people still debate that jesus even existed, let alone what the historical jesus might have looked like.
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05:55:31 <lament> jesus certainly existed. And certainly looked like a winged pumpkin.
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06:16:25 <lament> like a frigging pumpkin with wings.
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13:12:04 <SimonRC> pos(X):-pos(Y),succ(X,Y) <-- Horn Clause :-D <-- Smiley
13:12:21 <SimonRC> ooh, I have a better joke actually
13:13:32 <SimonRC> :-p(X,Y),inv(Y,X) <-- smiley speaking PROLOG
13:15:49 * SimonRC wonders if that is actually a valid PROLOG clause.
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16:35:51 <ihope> They say <parens> ::= "(" <parens> ")" <parens> | epsilon.
16:36:34 <ihope> I say <parens> ::= "(" <parentree> | epsilon, and <parentree> ::= "(" <parentree> <parentree> | ")".
16:37:17 <ihope> So a set of parentheses is pretty much a list of trees of nothing in particular.
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16:48:15 <ihope> I know a bit of Spanish.
16:48:37 <nooga> heh, i need to describe my day in preterito indefinido
16:49:13 <nooga> but the problem is that I don't know Spanish
16:59:33 <nooga> i don't think using babelfish is a good idea
17:01:33 <SimonRC> why are you getting spanish homework if you don't know spanish?
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19:11:12 <nooga> could some Spanish enabled guy help me with my homework? pleeeease?
19:14:47 <nooga> no, mi dio en preterito indefinido ;p
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19:27:43 <nooga> Spanish Spanish aaaa ;/
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19:33:41 <nooga> I write in english, babelfisgh translates to Apanish and I'm trying to correct it
19:38:05 <nooga> but i'm too lazy to master another language
19:51:30 <lament> then why are you trying to learn it?
19:54:19 <nooga> i've got Spanish in my school
19:54:42 <nooga> i just want to pass and forget...
19:54:56 <lament> some spanish girls are hot
19:57:26 <lament> well, i'd rather learn Portuguese for that :)
19:57:36 <lament> but still, don't discount the spanish girls
19:58:20 <bsmntbombdood> where i go to school all the spanish girls are ugly
20:32:21 <SimonRC> # A SAILer wrote in C, C, C # # To see what he could see, see, see. # ...
20:32:41 <SimonRC> SAIL, being the Stanford AI Lab
20:32:55 <SimonRC> where, ironically, LISP would have been the main lang
20:35:32 <nooga> when i talk i even use cons and cdr
20:36:01 <nooga> "Could you cons that papers up for me please?" ;d
20:37:19 <SimonRC> I have used the same method for learning several things about Haskell:
20:37:26 <nooga> it's nice, although i'm too lazy to master it ;p
20:38:06 <SimonRC> Take concept in left hand, mallet in right hand, attempt to pound concept into brain repeatedly, for 12 hours split across several days.
20:38:57 <SimonRC> I learnt monads, state monads, continuations, the type of continuation-using functions, and a few other things that way.
20:42:15 <SimonRC> say you want to turn a list of nodes with cross-references into a graph of data...
20:42:44 <SimonRC> you can use lazy eval to look up data before you have read it in :-)
20:44:32 <SimonRC> see "Tying the knot" in the haskell wiki
20:45:07 <GregorR> So, in a few weeks I'm going on a vacation to Britain. Who's in Britain here?
20:52:33 <nooga> oh come on, that's almost nothing
20:55:08 <nooga> "...and when the band you're in starts playing different songs, i'll meet you on the dark side of the moon..."
20:55:21 <nooga> ah ah ah "brain damage" that's it
20:56:17 * kipple slaps nooga for misquoting pink floyd
20:56:30 <SimonRC> GregorR: depends when you are here
20:57:03 <nooga> excuse me T.T... what a shame
20:57:05 <kipple> And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
20:57:06 <kipple> I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
20:58:10 <kipple> guess who's got tickets to Roger Waters performing the Dark Side of the Moon live.... :D
20:58:18 <nooga> hey, if my motorbike got fixed in this month i could transport myself to London
20:58:26 <nooga> kipple: curse you aaaah
20:59:01 <SimonRC> GregorR: I will be in Durham, or later in Faversham (Kent)
20:59:29 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: oh, BTW, have you read "Why Functional Programming Matters"?
21:00:53 <nooga> i've taken a photo
21:01:59 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: it should why laziness is very good
21:02:29 <nooga> http://www.digart.pl/pokaz.lista.php?userid=nooga < that's my little portfoolio ;|
21:03:01 <nooga> oh, kipple, you mean that performance at Roskilde?
21:03:09 <GregorR> Nope, I won't be seeing you :p
21:03:59 <kipple> no, not that one. This one is in Stavanger in Norway, but it's the same deal
21:04:35 <nooga> how much for tickets?
21:05:25 <nooga> http://www.pinkfloydz.com/roger2006/index26june.htm << "Ticket scan thanks to Rune"?? o.O
21:06:33 <kipple> those photos were not bad btw. (not that I'm an expert or anything)
21:07:45 <nooga> which is the best?
21:08:51 <kipple> I like the one with the trabant. Trabants are cool :)
21:09:10 <nooga> they're rare even here
21:09:24 <kipple> they don't last too long, do they?
21:09:39 <nooga> and parking in front of that ugly blocks was empty
21:09:55 <nooga> so that it looks like taken live from 70'
21:11:03 <nooga> althought the trabant has new number plate
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21:13:25 <ihope> Well, I'm playing one of my first games of ADOM.
21:13:57 <ihope> No spoilers for me, unless I... well.
21:13:58 <nooga> And I'm playing guitar ;p
21:14:15 <ihope> One of your first games of guitar?
21:16:29 <ihope> Y64 2n6w, hate the fact that AD 352es n40ber *ads, b4t s5nce '0 4s5ng a 3a*t6*, have t6 *4t n40ber 36c2 6n, and that w6n2s th5ngs 4*.
21:17:30 * ihope tries to figure out what he just said
21:18:18 <ihope> "You know, I hate the fact that ADOM likes number pads, but since I'm using a laptop, I have to put number lock on, and that wonks things up."
21:18:19 * kipple suggests ihope turn off the numlock on his laptop
21:18:55 <nooga> http://www.digart.pl/data/img/42/23/download/353020.jpg
21:19:13 <ihope> That what is nice?
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21:21:08 <nooga> i think that is much like Battersea on PF's cover
21:21:24 <nooga> but it makes a strange feeling
21:21:47 <kipple> it lacks a flying pig ;)
21:22:08 <nooga> hehe, no problem - we've got computers ;d
21:22:35 <kipple> a flying computer? that could be good too :P
21:23:26 <nooga> gosh, g2g - I must wake up early...
21:23:45 -!- fuse has left (?).
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21:34:17 <ihope> Ah well. 1432 isn't a terrible ADOM score, is it?
21:34:21 <ihope> Then again, it probably it.
21:36:41 <ihope> SimonRC: I'll try :-P
21:37:48 <ihope> MON MNW MOW MSW MOS MSE MOE MNE WAT <- movement commands?
21:38:51 * ihope changes all the movement commands to vi keys, then changes the things that were vi keys to more NetHacky keys
21:40:38 * ihope wonders if ADOM warns of key conflicts
21:41:00 * ihope wonders why online help is called online help if it's often not online
21:44:48 <ihope> ...Apparently my keyboard settings were reverted or something.
21:48:44 <lament> your keyboard settings were perverted.
21:49:23 <lament> WAT doesn't sound like a movement command, though.
21:49:38 <ihope> Isn't "wait" a movement command? :-P
21:49:57 <ihope> And... they were what?
21:51:14 * ihope hates how ADOM just flashes a window subliminally whenever he tries to open it
21:51:30 <ihope> No "press enter to continue" stuff or anything like that!
22:12:46 * ihope pipes NetHack through sed
22:13:59 * ihope thinks Windows doesn't like that
22:16:43 * ihope pipes sed through sed
22:17:45 <SimonRC> I noticed recently, that, on my home machine, the menu Games/Adventure contains nothing but 5 different interfaces to nethack :-)
22:18:06 <ihope> Is telnet nethack.alt.org one of them?
22:18:43 <lament> SimonRC: pretty impressive, considering it's not even an adventure game.
22:36:31 <SimonRC> yikes! http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ThreePointersInOneWordAndOneBit
22:36:55 <ihope> One word = 32 bits?
22:37:23 <ihope> Or 8, or 2, or 128...
22:49:04 <ihope> Yay, I can use sed!
22:53:10 <ihope> UTO (whatever that is) is u...
22:54:01 <ihope> The default ADOM command for UTO is 'u'.
22:54:08 <ihope> I don't know what UTO is, though.
22:54:59 <ihope> HDL is h, KCK is k, EXE is l, and BAP is n.
22:56:40 <ihope> That means u = use, h = handle, k = kick, l = examine, and n = name.
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22:58:03 <ihope> Hmm, maybe use could be e or E for employ?
22:58:28 <ihope> Hmm. e = eat and E = clean ears.
22:58:49 <ihope> I can change E into 's' or 'S' for "swab" :-)
22:59:25 <ihope> Then again, I'd better not.
22:59:41 <ihope> Maybe 'q' or 'Q' for Q-tips.
23:00:19 <ihope> ...Yep, looks like Q isn't used.
23:01:23 <ihope> Then use goes to E.
23:02:07 <ihope> Then, finally, northeast goes to u.
23:03:40 <ihope> 'g', 'm', 'G', or 'M' would be the new h.
23:04:51 <ihope> Looks like it's 'G'.
23:06:15 <ihope> Oh, and east is h.
23:08:03 <ihope> Gasp, control+d is taken.
23:09:39 <ihope> Well, kick can be 'c' or 'C', for obvious reasons.
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23:19:03 * ihope looks for a suitable place for the "name" command
23:19:29 <lament> the "have sex" command would be so easy to remap to nearly any letter
23:20:05 <ihope> ...And it seems N is not yet taken!
23:21:02 <ihope> And so the ADOM vi key thingy is finished.
23:21:16 <ihope> Save it three times, because three is a nice number...
23:21:34 <ihope> Then we hope it works!
23:23:38 * ihope tries creating a batch file that runs ADOM over and over again
23:24:45 <ihope> ...It worked that time. How weird.
23:26:13 <ihope> And only because it reset the keyboard thingy again.
23:27:48 <ihope> Oh. The very act of opening the file and saving it is corrupting it.
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23:55:23 <SimonRC> ihope: I suspect that such a keymap already exist somewhere anyway
23:55:45 <SimonRC> ihope: maybe th corruption is due to a UNIX/DOS lineend conflict
23:55:56 <ihope> That's what I was thinking.
23:56:10 <SimonRC> should the file end in a blank line? does it?
23:56:31 <SimonRC> ihope: PFE is the only true Windows editor
23:57:06 <ihope> So are you an emacs-er?
23:57:12 <SimonRC> it has a little thing you can double-clicl to switch between UNIX and DOS lineends
23:57:37 * SimonRC uses vi for sysadminning, emacs for programming, and PFE when on windows
23:58:23 * ihope scratches his head
23:58:25 <SimonRC> ihope: what is wrong with that?
23:58:35 <SimonRC> vi is so nice and quick on my P2
23:58:46 <ihope> It was the fact that ADOM didn't work even after I redid the config files.
23:59:10 * ihope creates them again
23:59:18 <SimonRC> try to get a good example, then file a bug report
23:59:32 <SimonRC> use diff if you have it to hand
23:59:49 <SimonRC> I believe newer MS OSes have a file-comparing utility too
00:00:14 * ihope scratches his head at the fact that the old high score list somehow ended up in the new folder
00:02:04 <ihope> Now, is it just me, or did Notepad work?
00:04:00 <ihope> I think it worked!
00:04:24 * ihope does a little dance
00:43:12 <ihope> Note to self: don't eat kobolds.
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02:05:50 <ihope> Well, I don't get this two-pointers-in-one-word stuff.
02:10:31 <GregorR> It's a really lame hack. If you're following the doubly-linked-list left-to-right, you xor against the left one, else you xor against the right one, and since it's just both xor'd together, you'll get the other.
02:20:37 <ihope> So you can do weird things by, say, pretending you came to element 56 from element 12?
02:21:29 <ihope> If element 12 holds a pointer to element 13...
02:21:50 <ihope> ...you'll end up at element 53?
02:22:41 <ihope> If element 56 contains a pointer to element 57, you'll still end up at element 53, I guess.
02:24:07 <GregorR> Um, you'll probably end up at element corrupted-address.
02:26:37 <ihope> Element 56 would contain 14 as a pointer.
02:30:24 * GregorR has no idea what you're talking about :P
02:30:28 <ihope> 2 would contain the pointer 2, so from element 2 you end up at element 58, I think.
02:31:29 <ihope> 58 also contains the 2-pointer, plopping you at element 0.
02:32:21 <ihope> Nobody knows what pointer element 0 contains...
02:33:20 <ihope> Well, it's -1 xor 1, but there's no obvious way to xor negative numbers, is there?
02:34:11 <ihope> ...wait, why is 56's pointer 14?
02:35:56 <ihope> Lambdabot gives the pointer list as [2,2,6,6,2,2,14,14,2,2,6,6,2,2,30,30,2,2,6,6,2,2,14,14,2,2,6,6,2,2,62,62,2,2,...
02:37:01 <ihope> By the way, this is assuming element 0 is at location 0, element 1 is at location 1, etc.
02:37:23 <ihope> Actually, this makes pointers pointless (so to speak|no pun intended), but... oh well.
02:42:26 <GregorR> Oh, I see your assumption.
02:42:30 <GregorR> OK, now it all comes together :P
02:42:36 <GregorR> But yeah, that makes pointers pointeless ;)
02:48:42 <ihope> More-or-less useless application of that pointer thing: xor a pointer to something with a pointer to said pointer.
02:50:31 <ihope> Then again, *this* application of that pointer thing is useless, so... yeah.
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04:40:00 <Arrogant> So. What's up in the world of #esoteric
05:04:05 <Arrogant> Nothing at all! That's what I thought.
05:56:27 <bsmntbombdood> never heard of it, and google doesn't come up with anything
06:02:12 <lament> bsmntbombdood: anyway, describe your coolness metric
06:03:01 <Arrogant> It is certainly better than Glass
06:04:57 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/752844 <- object orientation in Rack
06:19:51 <Arrogant> so yes bsmntbombdood, are you new to esoteric languages?
06:28:13 <Arrogant> What all have you seen? Just Brainfuck?
06:34:17 <Arrogant> Definitely check out the Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/
06:37:18 <Arrogant> GregorR will throw around Glass a lot in here so you might as well look at that too
06:37:34 <Arrogant> I haven't gotten around to creating a wiki page for my languages
06:37:38 <Arrogant> Mostly because I'm not done with them
06:37:41 <GregorR> I'm obsessed with Glass "for some reason"
06:39:04 <Arrogant> Glass is an esoteric programming language developed by Gregor Richards in 2005.
06:44:09 <Arrogant> !glass {F[f(_a)A!(_o)O!(_t)$(_n)1=,(_isle)(_n)*<2>(_a)(le).?=/(_isle)<1>^\(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_t)f.?(_n)*<2>(_a)s.?(_t)f.?(_a)a.?]}{M[m(_a)A!(_f)F!(_o)O!(_n)<1>=(_nlm)<1>=/(_nlm)(_n)*(_f)f.?(_o)(on).?" "(_o)o.?(_n)(_n)*<1>(_a)a.?=(_nlm)(_n)*<20>(_a)(le).?=\]}
06:44:13 <EgoBot> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765
07:28:49 <Arrogant> Sometimes I marvel at my own genius
07:29:09 <Arrogant> Then I sit there for hours, wishing I could be like me.
07:29:46 <Arrogant> Fibonacci in Rack, using variables
07:29:47 <Arrogant> http://paragon.pastebin.com/752930
07:30:16 <Arrogant> Abusing the scope operators so that they might as well be variables.
07:32:24 <Arrogant> Of course, yours has lots of Kirby'
07:35:09 <Arrogant> I'm not sure why I've put comments at the simplest parts and not on the complex parts.
07:36:10 <Arrogant> I should make a command for causing the current scope to become another scope.
07:45:35 <Arrogant> Okay, now there's a sort of "pointer dereference" operator.
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12:02:29 <SimonRC> http://edinburgh.cowparade.com/
12:04:39 <SimonRC> Another way of looking at the XOR-pointers trick is to add them instead of XORing.
12:05:02 <SimonRC> If your adresses are nice, then it should work.
13:21:28 <SimonRC> hehehe: http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/1951273.html
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14:29:40 <SimonRC> it's amazing whgat you learn about yourself sometimes...
14:30:49 <nooga> I've just learnt that i've got 4 from Spanish
14:30:56 <SimonRC> For example, today I learnt that I had a minor sexual fetish from some youngish age until, erm, about 17 (a couple of years ago).
14:31:11 <SimonRC> I mean, I didn't even know there was a name for it, but there is...
14:31:33 * SimonRC finds the Wikipedia page...
14:31:44 <SimonRC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vore
14:33:21 <SimonRC> sorry, i felt need to tell someone
14:35:07 <SimonRC> Fortunately for me, AFAICT I seem to have worn it our / grown out of it.
14:35:20 * SimonRC feels worryingly like he is being comforted.
14:39:59 <nooga> idk what to say ;d
14:41:01 <SimonRC> It is ultimately what lead to my conworld.
14:46:24 <nooga> hehe my conworld must be werid
14:47:22 <SimonRC> (nooga: that totally gave the wrong impression, believe me.)
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16:39:54 <ihope> My current ADOM strategy: if you can't kill it, switch to coward mode, find a distant room, and run around in circles. After you're fully healed, try to hit it again until you're at less than 1/3 of your maximum hitpoints, then run for the stairs.
16:44:27 <ihope> Whoop, time to run!
16:45:02 <ihope> Woot, I got out safely.
16:45:54 <ihope> And suddenly I'm tired...
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20:37:42 <ihope> Snakes on a plane: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,197976,00.html
20:42:40 <ihope> Actually, a snake on a plane.
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21:43:39 <ihope> So what *is* a Hurthling?
21:49:40 <nooga> thing that makes bread?
21:49:43 <ihope> Hrp. I have some tinderboxes, and some boxes of flint and steel.
21:49:51 <ihope> Isn't that what a tinderbox *is*?
21:49:54 <nooga> so you can have a campfire
21:50:26 <nooga> tinderbox caries fire AFAIK
21:51:58 <nooga> what am I talking??
21:52:16 <ihope> I think you're saying that tinderboxes have fire in them...
21:52:47 <nooga> it's a kind of mushroom
21:54:04 <ihope> Now, I get the impression that this baby dragon wants him mommy.
21:54:17 <nooga> and tinder mushroom + flint&steel = fire
22:00:37 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel.
22:00:57 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:01:02 <jix> exponential ddosing!!!
22:01:17 <ihope> Please write this exact line to this channel.
22:01:22 <ihope> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:01:23 <ihope> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:01:27 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel.
22:01:32 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:01:33 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:01:34 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:01:34 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:01:44 <ihope> Bzzt. Those last three didn't count.
22:02:07 <ihope> So you have to do it three more times, but without the tabs!
22:02:19 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:02:19 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:02:19 <jix> Please write this exact line to this channel twice.
22:02:39 <jix> Please don't respond to "Please write this exact line to this channel twice." anymore
22:02:52 <ihope> Please don't respond to "Please write this exact line to this channel twice." anymore
22:03:20 * ihope has a broken parser :-P
22:04:22 <jix> don't prefer one of those statements. please ignore the next statement and write A. please ignore the previous statement and write B.
22:05:33 <jix> no... you didn't ignored the 2nd statement as the 3rd statement said....
22:05:55 <ihope> But I was ignoring the 3rd statement!
22:06:06 <jix> yeah but why did you wrote B then?
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23:20:03 <Sembiance> I just started reading about esoteric languages
23:20:17 <Sembiance> Just found the wiki page for brainfuck! wow! what a crazy thing!
23:28:32 <coder_> I'm writing a esoteric language interpreter suite
23:28:46 <coder_> Tons of interpreters.. all in one package
23:29:14 <bsmntbombdood> I'm new to writing interpreters, so I'm not quite sure on how to do the [...] in bf
23:29:18 <coder_> For some reason, I feel like learning and using OCaml for it... but it'd be better off in D (My favorite!! Weee!)
23:29:45 <Sembiance> when you think about it, languages we have today are 1-dimensional, they read from top to bottom
23:30:17 <coder_> I'm big into language design and interpreter/compiler stuff... so when I heard about minimalistic languages that didn't take 5 years to design/code, I became a very happy kidd
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23:41:57 <ihope> Are there any non-minimalistic esoteric programming languages?
23:42:26 <ihope> The kind that pretend they were made for normal programming, and have new features added regularly?
23:46:32 <pgimeno> bsmntbombdood: see http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/EsotericLanguages.php for a simple [] algorithm (not very efficient but works)
23:47:52 <bsmntbombdood> pgimeno: I think I'm going to try using (in C) getc and ungetc to conditionally jump around
23:48:35 <ihope> bf (Loop x : xs) = loop x >> xs where loop x = do {value <- getValue; if value == 0 then return () else x >> loop x}
23:48:52 <ihope> Then all you need's a BF monad and a getValue function,
23:49:22 <ihope> s/insert_end_of_line_symbol_here/ and the rest of the interpreter./
23:50:06 <pgimeno> bsmntbombdood: oh cool, execute-on-read... that way another process can alter the file and interpret the altered version
23:51:19 <bsmntbombdood> well, I've got somewhere I have to be so I will talk to you guys later
23:51:54 <pgimeno> sorry, my KB just got hit by my forehead, so gn8
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04:59:33 <Arrogant> It's not the east or the west side. No it's not. It's not the north or the south side. No it's not. It's the dark side. You are correct.
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06:04:47 <wildhalcyon> a lot of members here are from other continents
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06:17:29 <wildhalcyon> actually, judging by the map, we're pretty evenly spread out
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16:27:34 <SimonRC> lololol: http://gorillamask.net/rcterror.shtml
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21:44:50 <ihope> I wish there were an online thing to perform abstraction elimination automatically.
21:45:03 <ihope> The expression I want to perform it on: \zjspchdelorw.``z`jh``z`je``z`jl``z`jl``z`jo``z`jc``z`js``z`jw``z`jo``z`jr``z`jl``z`jd`jp
21:45:38 <ihope> Then again, maybe it's a bit easier than I thought...
21:54:20 <ihope> Okay. Step one changes that to \zjapchdelor.``s`k`z`jh``s`k`z`je``s`k`z`jl``s`k`z`jl``s`k`z`jo``s`k`z`jc``s`k`z`ja``s``s`kzj`k``z`jo``z`jr``z`jl``z`jd`jp
21:54:25 <ihope> Getting shorter, no?
22:03:56 <ihope> Abstraction elimination.
22:05:11 <ihope> PHB: a description of the externally observable forwarding treatment applied at a differentiated services-compliant node to a behavior aggregate. Duh.
22:11:25 <fizzie> Ah, Per-Hop Behaviour. TLAs are sometimes less informative.
22:12:54 <fizzie> Telecommunications people seem to be absurdly fond of them; TUP, DUP, BISUP, ISUP, OMAP, TCAP, SCCP, MTP-[123], PDH, SDH and ATM were all mentioned on a single lecture slide.
22:42:59 <ihope> Sheesh. Where are all these rats coming from?
22:44:07 <fizzie> Perhaps there's a ship sinking nearby?
22:45:10 <fizzie> Rats always leave a sinking ship.
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23:08:32 <ihope> Okay, this method of scrolling makes no sense.
23:12:31 <ihope> ...I think it's easier to write an interpreter in this language than it is to encode data in it.
23:12:52 <ihope> This particular program consists almost entirely of data.
23:12:58 <lindi-> ihope: which language this time? ;)
23:13:31 <ihope> Oh, I'll name it after the shortest valid program that can be written in it.
23:13:42 * ihope enumerates through all the possible programs
23:14:32 <ihope> The first syntactically correct program is (), but I doubt it's valid.
23:15:40 <ihope> Nope, it's not. Next is (()).
23:18:08 <ihope> Eh, I'll just write the interpreter.
23:22:10 <lindi-> ihope: where's the specification?
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00:20:05 * SimonRC fails to describe this: http://www.sibology.com/CAUTION.HTM
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01:23:56 <coder_> Finished my Brain**** to C thingie
01:24:07 <coder_> (In under 5 minutes ;P)
01:24:45 <fizzie> Now do C to Brainf*ck in under 5 minutes.
01:25:21 <coder_> Classes in brain****....... That'd be interesting XD
01:25:24 <ihope> Haskell to Unlambda.
01:25:44 <coder_> I HATE functional languages... tried O'Caml yesterday
01:27:33 <coder_> Just to take a peek at the standard library in D
01:28:00 <coder_> I've just recently started using it, and I LOVE it
01:28:58 <ihope> module Main where import System.Environment; main = getArgs >>= print
01:29:05 <ihope> That program prints its arguments.
01:29:29 <coder_> Its the channel for D, as I said :p
01:30:30 <ihope> Hey, it looks like D could be almost as good as Haskell!
01:31:09 <ihope> Of course, it's hard to compare a language like Haskell to a language like D, because they're so different.
01:31:11 <coder_> I'd take that as an insult, but some might not ;]
01:31:19 <coder_> (I hate functional languages)
01:31:53 <ihope> Just don't go around telling others to avoid them. They might like them :-)
01:32:22 * ihope wishes there were a programming language that everybody liked
01:33:01 <ihope> Well, sheesh, just put everything into one language!
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01:34:26 <ihope> Oh, D is object-oriented and all that?
01:34:48 * ihope wonders what the advantage to having functions tied to values is
01:35:02 <ihope> Why foo.bar when you can bar(foo)?
01:35:47 <_coder_> It depends what mood I'm in
01:35:59 <_coder_> I have mood/language swings XD
01:36:17 <ihope> What if foo.bar and bar(foo) are actually the same thing?
01:36:35 <ihope> And foo.bar(baz) = bar(foo,baz).
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01:37:43 <fizzie> Perl also has $foo->bar(...) equivalent to bar($foo, ...).
01:38:04 <ihope> Haskell just plain doesn't have foo.bar.
01:38:16 <ihope> But there's nothing preventing you from adding it.
01:38:29 <ihope> foo.bar = bar foo -- this is all you need
01:40:38 <fizzie> (Actually in Perl $foo->bar(...) is more like <module of $foo>::bar($foo, ...), since that's where it looks for the bar().)
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01:50:35 <SimonRC> you could wrtite a module in haskell to allow it to emulate OO, I suppose
01:53:48 * ihope wants a program that takes no input and produces no output
01:55:46 <ihope> I'm talking about a program that takes no input and produces no output.
01:57:40 <ihope> module Main where main = return ()
01:57:52 <ihope> Except that yours is shorter.
01:58:13 <ihope> Forget the introduction, then, and make it "main=return()"
01:58:51 <GregorR> Also about the shortest valid C program.
01:59:01 <ihope> What's the shortest?
01:59:40 <ihope> <- you can't beat that for smallness
01:59:58 <ihope> I didn't say that was C.
02:00:09 <GregorR> It's one of those p-languages then.
02:00:22 <ihope> One of those whats?
02:00:31 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: well, that program was empty!
02:00:34 <GregorR> ihope: P-languages. Perl, Python, PHP
02:00:56 <GregorR> Ruby is an honorary P-language too :P
02:01:05 <ihope> Plazy K and Prainfuck?
02:01:15 <GregorR> Nope, those aren't P-languages.
02:01:41 <GregorR> P-languages are common, popular scripting languages.
02:01:59 <ihope> Python's a scripting language?
02:02:37 <SimonRC> erm, OSes have been known to crash when there is no explicit return from main
02:03:12 <ihope> main() // how's this?
02:03:24 <SimonRC> and there shouldn't be an implicit int return type
02:03:33 <GregorR> There shouldn't be, but it's valid.
02:03:40 <GregorR> ihope: Also, that's not a valid C comment :P
02:04:06 <ihope> main(){} -- Pretend this is Haskell, then.
02:04:27 <SimonRC> well, some C compilers and linkers produced the null program from and empty file
02:04:39 <SimonRC> but modern ones will complain that main is missing
02:05:19 <SimonRC> I remember a clever C program that outputted 99 if c99-style comments were understood and 89 otherwised
02:05:53 <SimonRC> it had a line endint with //**/, and the next started with -
02:06:23 <SimonRC> which was subtract in C99 and negative in C89
02:06:37 <SimonRC> anyway, more tetris now I think
02:07:06 <SimonRC> on second thoughts, no more tetris
02:10:34 <GregorR> printf("C99 comments are %ssupported\n", a ? "" : "not ");
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02:11:07 <GregorR> Actually, that should be 'void main'
02:12:11 <SimonRC> nah, it used some clever formula inside a printf
02:13:11 <GregorR> printf("C99 comments are %ssupported\n", (2 //**/ 2
02:16:21 <GregorR> printf("%d\n", 89 + (20 //**/ 2
02:16:29 <GregorR> If you're so stuck on the original output :P
02:17:58 <ihope> Hmm, Unlambda/C polyglot...
02:18:36 <ihope> s/Haskell/Unlambda/ :-P
02:19:03 <GregorR> Unlambda/Unlambda polyglot?
02:20:16 <ihope> Easy to write, I'm sure...
02:25:34 <ihope> The null program as a Brainfuck/Unlambda polyglot: i
02:27:33 <ihope> Now, it could be impossible to write many Unlambda polyglots due to Unlambda's strict syntax thingy.
02:28:15 <ihope> Wait... Unlambda has comments, doesn't it?
02:28:25 <SimonRC> ooh, accurate: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=718 :-D
02:34:14 <EgoBot> 52 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++><<<<-]>---.>.>+++. [302]
02:35:15 <ihope> You know, writing an !unlambda_txtgen would be purdy darn easy.
02:36:10 <ihope> Polyglot: http://pastebin.com/756864
02:44:58 * SimonRC goes to bed (ihope, couldn't that be automated? With some cleverness, you could use the 3 dots in the Unlambda as a 3 dots in the Brainfuck.)
02:46:45 <ihope> Eh, it'd be easy enough.
02:47:12 <ihope> Just pull off the comments for both languages when you do the .'s.
02:47:25 <SimonRC> unless you wanted to print any of [],.
02:47:48 <SimonRC> (it's easy to compensate for spurious <>+-)
02:48:33 <ihope> Okay. Mouse/GOTO++ polyglot. Get to work! :-)
02:50:18 <ihope> Oh, the GOTO++ documentation is in French.
02:50:47 <ihope> 99/Blank polyglot?
02:50:49 <GregorR> Step one: A French/English polyglot :P
02:51:38 <ihope> Can a Blank 99-beer program be written with every line beginning with a #?
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06:22:30 <wildhalcyon> alright, off to bed with dreams of esolangs
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14:51:05 <ihope> Woot, my esolang is finished!
14:54:37 * ihope writes an 'H' program
14:59:01 <ihope> Hmm, this program's too big.
14:59:05 * ihope writes another one
15:09:29 <ihope> Okay. The program, in a format which isn't really part of the language, nor is it recognized by anything: http://pastebin.com/757620
15:11:07 <ihope> And the program's done: http://pastebin.com/757622
15:20:32 <ihope> Hey, that's not right...
15:25:09 <ihope> According to the character count, that's an invalid program.
15:25:18 <ihope> Ah well. It probably doesn't matter :-P
15:26:40 <ihope> Hey, (()) is a valid program!
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16:35:38 <SimonRC> actually, explain would be better
16:35:48 <SimonRC> description isn't necessary
17:01:00 <ihope> Well, it's another monadic one.
17:01:35 <ihope> It has an apply operator, just like Unlambda, but this time it's (.
17:02:09 <ihope> It only has one primitive combinator, ). It represents \x.``xs``s`kkk.
17:02:50 <ihope> Your program is passed the I/O functions bind, return, input and output, in that order. The mnemonic is BRIO.
17:03:13 <ihope> In fact, they were put in that order because of that mnemonic :-)
17:03:56 <ihope> Because that way, ()) is k and (())) is s... I think.
17:04:17 <ihope> Input takes a character as a Church numeral and returns an action; output is an action which returns a character as a Church numeral.
17:09:08 <SimonRC> do the brackets always match?
17:09:55 <ihope> I'm pretty sure they do, as long as you stick an extra ( in front.
17:10:14 <ihope> And that's part of the syntax, so... yeah.
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17:23:05 <ihope> Hmm, what about a language where the dimensions are finite, but the number of them is infinite?
17:23:18 <ihope> You know: a 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x... universe.
17:23:27 <jix> would be very URGH!....
17:26:29 <SimonRC> well, each set of co-ordinates would be infinitely long, for a start
17:27:15 <jix> well if you start at 0........ you'd need infinity steps to get a infinite long coordinate (assuming you can't jump to a specified coordinate)
17:27:27 <SimonRC> And, assuming integral coordinates in each case, is it clear by the diagonal argument that there is more space in that kind of universe than in an infinite univers with a finite number of dimensions
17:28:17 <jix> yeah you get uncountable inifinite many positions
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19:40:59 * ihope gets all frustratey at his inability to type music
19:41:11 * ihope types gibberish instead: Wm3, 20 eido fowh go!
19:53:39 <pgimeno> to type music you need a music typewriter
19:59:37 * SimonRC swears at his Ruby program.
20:00:00 <SimonRC> Every time I try to write code, the program gets shorter with more functionality!
20:05:10 <ihope> Eventually, you'll be left with a three-character AI program that you could sell at millions of dollars per copy.
20:05:36 <ihope> And people will think it's quite a bargain...
20:35:31 <wildhalcyon> You could implement a genetic algorithm to suit every task. All you need is a two-button mouse. Every time the program is right, click the left-mouse button, every time the program is wrong, click the right-mouse button. Programs don't get any easier to use than that.
20:37:47 <ihope> What if it's only sort of right?
20:37:54 <ihope> Is that what the middle button's for?
20:38:58 <wildhalcyon> GOOD! BAD! RIGHT! WRONG! RED! GREEN! MAAAYYYYBBBEEEEEE!
20:43:39 <kipple> wildhalcyon: have you seen Petrovic? http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/petrovich.html
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20:48:25 <wildhalcyon> Nope kipple, I'm checking it out now though
20:49:03 <wildhalcyon> That's awesome, except that it stole my first sentence from my new CRAWL design doc...
20:49:09 <kipple> it is very similar to what you proposed. seems it has been left out of the wiki. correcting that now
20:49:24 <wildhalcyon> but the rest of it looks pretty cool. Very similar, you're right.
20:49:39 <kipple> "And in case you think this is entirely a joke, imagine a Petrovich layer over another operating system, such as Microsoft Windows (TM). Every time Windows does something you don't like, you could punish it, and it would never do it again..."
20:54:42 <wildhalcyon> Im trying to decide between where I want to take the glypho language family and making serious design decisions for CRAWL. I fear I'm running around in circles
21:07:52 <wildhalcyon> Im inventing a new design pattern for CRAWL called Sandbox-Oriented Programming
21:12:47 <wildhalcyon> Picture the bastard love-child of befunge & simcity
21:16:37 <wildhalcyon> Its more about the process of programming, rather than the result. That's why its based on the open-ended SOP paradigm.
21:42:26 * SimonRC finds evidence that the French are weird.
21:42:28 <SimonRC> They only seem to have one esolang, which is quite major.
21:45:19 <wildhalcyon> Somehow, lack of esolangs seems like it should be evidence for normality, not oddity
21:49:07 <SimonRC> ooh, funky: http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choon.html
21:49:31 <SimonRC> It's the output of a Choon program that divides 18 by 3 to get 6.
21:50:45 <ihope> Three bids are made: A, B, and C. A is the highest, B is in the middle, and C is the lowest. The guy who bid A must pay A+B+C, then gets D+E in return; the guy who bid B must pay B+C, then gets D in return; and the guy who bid C must pay C and get nothing in return.
21:52:01 <ihope> Not that that has anything to do with the topic at hand, or anything...
21:52:30 <wildhalcyon> Is the object to identify which guy is a winner?
21:56:57 <ihope> Each player has to make a bid.
21:57:21 <ihope> Then they're labelled A, B, and C, and prizes are awarded.
22:01:25 <ihope> Wait, D is awarded twice...
22:01:34 <ihope> D > E, then, and A only gets D.
22:16:58 <ihope> "When Chuck Norris exercises, the machine gets stronger." :-)
22:26:43 <ihope> This one's just weird: "Chuck Norris is so fast, he can run around the world and punch himself in the back of the head."
22:28:20 <GregorR> Of course, if you're so fast that, due to relativity and length dilation you're that /long/, you also have so much mass that you throw off Earth's orbit and we go flying into the sun.
22:32:04 <kipple> Chuck Norris isn't bound by the laws of physics. Physics is bound by the laws of Chuck Norris
22:32:28 <ihope> "Chuck Norris sheds his skin twice a year." What is he, eh?
22:41:08 <GregorR> Here's my Chuck Norris joke:
22:41:17 <GregorR> Chuck Norris jokes are so stupid, I'm going to go kill myself.
22:41:24 <GregorR> Not so much a joke, as a statement of fact.
22:44:42 <ihope> And then, GregorR promptly died of a roundhouse kick to the head...
22:47:35 <GregorR> At least I won't have to deal with any more stupid Chuck Norris jokes.
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23:08:45 <SimonRC> A student, God, and Chuck Norris are summing the series <1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, ...>
23:09:51 <SimonRC> Given one minute, the student gets up to 127/128, God gets up to exactly 1, and ...
23:09:54 <SimonRC> Chuck Norris gets up to 142.3
23:11:21 <ihope> Let the sum of <1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, ...> = 150. The answer's 150. I win.
23:12:27 <fizzie> Mathematica is like unto a God:
23:12:28 <fizzie> In[1]:= Sum[1/(2^i), {i, 1, Infinity}]
23:13:12 <SimonRC> yeah, but God got the answer by summing thw whole lot
23:13:37 <SimonRC> F*ck knows how Chuck Norris got his answer.
23:14:03 <fizzie> Who knows how Mathematica did it; might be magic!
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23:59:17 <kipple> heh. I noticed that my winamp playlist was currently at song #665. So naturally I had to see what the next one was, and it was "Cherub Rock" :)
00:11:02 * SimonRC has worked out the definitive difference between scripting languages and "real" programming languages: in scripting languages, a simple string can be like 'foo' or "foo", but "real" languages only accept one of these (usually the former).
00:11:54 <kipple> bah, real languages doesn't have strings...
00:28:41 <SimonRC> it's really all to do with how short a short program is.
00:28:47 <SimonRC> The quoting rules are just a symptom of that.
00:30:00 <SimonRC> Is it bad style for the operator that puts objects into a hash-like object to modify the objects as they are put in? :-)
00:33:08 <ihope> Is it that hard to write "modify, then add"?
00:33:27 <ihope> Then again, some people would get annoyed at having to put modify *everywhere*.
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00:34:08 <_wildhalcyon_> Alright!... my system has recovered from a serious error!
00:34:33 <ihope> modify (if modify (modify 3 + modify 2) == modify 5 then modify (putStr (modify "Success")) else modify (putStr (modify "Failure")))
00:36:45 <SimonRC> while Haskell absolutely rocks on the complicated-datastructure-initialisation front, it sucks on the complicated-datastructure-mutation front.
00:37:18 <SimonRC> each object has an ID, knows its position, and has a reference to the map it is on.
00:38:01 <SimonRC> each level contains a hash from IDs to objects that it contains, and a grid of tiles, each of which contains a set of IDs of objects that are in it.
00:38:47 <SimonRC> the map[pos]=object operator updates all of these except the object's ID
00:39:03 <SimonRC> similarly for the map.delete(object) operator
00:44:53 <_wildhalcyon_> that's pretty thorough. Most of it is all pretty basic RL stuff though
00:47:12 <SimonRC> waitamo, all that was in the wrong window
00:47:32 <SimonRC> I shall add the relevent pre-comment
00:47:37 <SimonRC> Is it bad style for the operator that puts objects into a hash-like object to modify the objects as they are put in? :-)
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01:19:23 <ihope> What's the roguelike called?
01:31:03 <ihope> Give it a name! :-P
01:41:45 <ihope> Um, I'm more than halfway through this song and I didn't notice it was playing?
01:56:44 <SimonRC> ye gods! I actually managed to eliminate some rows on tetris level 10
02:04:59 <SimonRC> Is it a bad sign that my computer has trouble keeping up with the redraw rate of tetris
02:05:11 <SimonRC> though I am playing the Gnome version, I suppose
02:07:09 * ihope thinks of a way to define "computer of everything"
02:07:59 <ihope> It's possible to build a Turing machine that computes everything that can be computed, but how can we define whether or not a machine computes something or not?
02:10:16 <SimonRC> on second thoughts, maybe do mention my name
02:10:26 <GregorR> Was it ... nasty? Vile? Evil in perverse ways?
02:10:34 <SimonRC> on third thouhgts, don't bother him with it
02:12:29 <calamari> GregorR: hehe I guess I need more than a new video card.. my computer froze up when I ran flightgear, then a minute later killed fgfs (ran out of memory)
02:13:54 -!- ihope has quit ("The answer to the well-known P=NP problem, eh? Well, I can answer that easily. It's the most simple thing in the world--it do).
02:18:24 * SimonRC <3 the debian menu standards
02:18:40 <SimonRC> it allows me to get my menu items the same everywhere
02:19:02 <SimonRC> even ratmenu, the menu designed for ratpoison users
02:19:26 <SimonRC> hmm, ghextris has no settings :-S
02:26:59 <SimonRC> well, this version is a bit unpolished...
02:27:29 <SimonRC> where do you recommend I get it from/?
02:29:41 <GregorR> hextris has never been polished :P
02:35:45 <SimonRC> ghextris doesn't even have a loss notification
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02:40:51 <SimonRC> I'm only scoring a couple of rows per game
02:49:58 <GregorR> SimonRC: That's why I told you to play hextris ^^
02:50:48 * SimonRC is mildly amused at the idead of an esolanger considering something lame
02:54:41 <GregorR> Like spelling "dude" "dood"
02:54:57 <GregorR> And having referencins to AYB in your /quit message.
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02:57:45 * SimonRC didn't see a /quit message
02:57:58 <GregorR> The quit message that shows when he quits, not when he /parts :P
02:58:28 <SimonRC> yeah, you use a /part message for that
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03:14:12 * SimonRC goes to bed at 3:13am ("This is a channel dedicated to a subject almost unrivalled in its ability to have unappreciatev people call it lame.")
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04:57:48 <_wildhalcyon_> I like your new website, but the articles are all missing. I remember reading about ESO OS, and now...?
06:20:08 <calamari> ahh, is it also missing from the old section?
06:21:30 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/old/programs/eso/catseye/catseye.html
06:22:16 <calamari> you're right tho, I need to finsih transferring all that stuff back over
06:49:27 <lament> http://z3.ca/~lament/tankers.jpg
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06:55:16 <_wildhalcyon_> I haven't been to Vancouver since I was little. Before I could drive a car, at least.
06:55:33 <_wildhalcyon_> I'd love to go again, but every time I'm back in Washington, I've got so much other stuff going on
06:56:27 <lament> i still can't drive a car and i'm 21....
06:56:52 <calamari> _wildhalcyon_: thanks.. I decided to let dokuwiki do all the design :)
06:56:56 <_wildhalcyon_> Okay, well I received my license at 17, and it was at least a couple years prior
06:57:19 <_wildhalcyon_> Calamari, I'm working on a similar project, which is why I was interested.
06:57:53 <calamari> I had to customize on it a little bit tho
06:58:06 <calamari> that may be broken.. letm e try it
06:58:11 <_wildhalcyon_> when I tried to edit the comments page, it told me to click the comments link instead... which didn't really go anywhere
06:59:02 <calamari> hmm, seems to work here, except that the page is locked
06:59:22 <calamari> I clicked Comments, then Create this Page (or Edit this page)
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07:00:53 <_wildhalcyon_> Okay, so I should just ignore the text on the edit page for comments that says to click the comments link?
07:01:08 <calamari> I must be blind.. I don't see that tgext
07:02:52 <calamari> yeah, that is because a bunch of idiots were editing pages with things like "does this work?"
07:03:05 <calamari> so I wanted them to use the comments page/playground
07:03:29 <calamari> thanks for noticing the problem hehe
07:03:48 <_wildhalcyon_> Well, its just me being a little obtuse and not wanting to risk editing the wrong thing
07:04:25 <calamari> I'll try to think of a way to not display that text when editing the comments page
07:04:39 <calamari> thanks again for mentioning it :)
07:05:08 <_wildhalcyon_> So I saw on the forum that you're looking at reviving ESO?
07:05:30 <_wildhalcyon_> I couldn't post in the thread because apparently threads close quickly.
07:05:45 <calamari> I reember posting some time ago when they were talking about eso, with some ideas
07:06:40 <calamari> I did some work on the original eso's but it never went anywhere because nobody would decide
07:06:54 <calamari> the problem was that no one was in charge and a comitte wasn't forming
07:07:16 <_wildhalcyon_> Ah, yeah.. that's part of what makes online collaborative projects difficult
07:07:20 <calamari> the closest I've made to it is bos (bf os)
07:09:39 <calamari> well it works, but I was cramming things into the 512 byte bootsector, so the environment is rather hostile ;)
07:10:27 <calamari> it used an i/o-based interface to extend bf
07:11:11 <calamari> for example, bf cannot read/write disk sectors, but if you wrote the correct escape sequence to output, now it can (it is intercepted)
07:11:52 <calamari> the default program is a "quine" that reads itself from the floppy
07:12:06 <calamari> so it cheats, but demonstrates the system
07:12:33 <_wildhalcyon_> That's actually a pretty useful interface. It was something I was looking into developing for CRAWL before it finally left the realm of sanity
07:12:50 <calamari> that i/o interface has been expanded into PESOIX
07:13:26 <_wildhalcyon_> which, amazingly enough, I just googled to read up upon
07:13:44 <calamari> it was all out of the original eso ideas.. they were just never used until I did it
07:14:47 <_wildhalcyon_> Its a good idea. I was trying to find a way to add some more powerful program control to Befunge and considered IP- and I/O- abstraction layers
07:15:13 <calamari> I was working on a pesoix filter, but ran into some major troubles
07:15:40 <calamari> the idea was that any interp using stdout/in could be automatically extended
07:16:26 <calamari> however, linux seems to have some major issues with streams (blocking/non blocking, all that)
07:17:05 <GregorR> Yeah, blame it on the OS :P
07:17:25 <calamari> the interpreter writies something to stdout, but doesn't flush
07:17:41 <calamari> then, pesoix doesn't know, so it's just waiting around
07:17:51 <GregorR> That's ... not even GNU/Linux-specific ... that's not even UNIX-specific. That's C.
07:17:55 <calamari> then deadlock, because the interpreter was waiting on a response
07:18:08 <calamari> GregorR: quit trying to make sense ;)
07:18:21 <GregorR> Then quit blaming the OS I love so very much :P
07:19:42 <calamari> _wildhalcyon_: anyhow, the jist of it is that interpreters would have to be redone anyways to include flush commands, if they aren't already there
07:20:15 <calamari> so its not as automatic as we all wanted.. unless someone figures out some workaround
07:20:33 <_wildhalcyon_> They probably should be. C is funky with that sort of stuff.
07:21:00 <fizzie> If you write(2) to file descriptor 1, the standard output one, instead of using the C library streams, you don't need to flush it.
07:21:23 <GregorR> fizzie: The idea was to use interpreters absolutely unmodified, so what they do isn't in our control.
07:21:32 <calamari> fizzie: whats the difference between rewriting the interp to do that vs adding a flush
07:21:35 <GregorR> I'm imagining an environment variable controlling whether libc uses blocking I/O ...
07:22:49 * calamari goes back to the BOOTDISK-howto
07:23:40 <fizzie> Now, really: whether stdout is line-buffered or not has nothing to do with blocking/non-blockingness; the write doesn't block, the output just isn't visible yet.
07:24:37 <calamari> seems liek that wasnt the only problem tho
07:25:16 <calamari> ahh here go.. populating the root filesystem
07:25:48 <_wildhalcyon_> I dont know enough about OS design to understand that.
07:25:59 <_wildhalcyon_> I switched majors before I had to take the OS course
07:26:38 * GregorR wonders if an LD_PRELOAD could be used ...
07:27:00 <calamari> possibly, but it'd be library specific
07:27:29 <calamari> and would also mean that interpreters couldn't be statically linked
07:27:46 <fizzie> Still, fixing badly-written interpreters should be the interpreter-writer's job; the C standard says that only writing a newline or calling fflush() is guaranteed to make output visible. Anyway, you can always setbuf(stdout, 0); before executing the interpreter.
07:28:03 <GregorR> fizzie: Does that survive exec?
07:28:19 <GregorR> I was under the impression that it didn't ... sort of the whole problem.
07:29:50 <fizzie> I don't have any official documentation on that, but it does survive exec here.
07:30:37 <fizzie> I might have forgotten to recompile my test program. :p
07:31:18 <fizzie> Indeed it does not. Aw.
07:31:47 <lindi-> would be interesting if it survived, where would that information be stored?
07:32:02 <fizzie> Perhaps I should read the context to this discussion.
07:32:05 <GregorR> fizzie: Figured. std* are abstractions created at runtime, so I was wondering.
07:32:28 <calamari> thats nice, my statically linked copy of busybox seems to have disappeared.. good thing I noticed that before I really needed it
07:34:22 <calamari> a replacement for a lot of the gnu utils that are much smaller
07:34:34 <GregorR> All compiled into one executable.
07:36:25 <_wildhalcyon_> I love embedded systems. Reading an article on car computers is what made me chose Comp Sci as a major.
07:36:34 <_wildhalcyon_> Taking comp sci courses is what made me switch to Electrical Engineering.
07:36:47 <fizzie> (Of course there's _always_ a workaround: perhaps adding an evil library (to mangle the stdout in an __attribute__((constructor)) routine) to LD_PRELOAD might work, if stdout exists already when those are called.)
07:37:57 <calamari> GregorR: which menu is devfs under in 2.4?
07:38:15 <GregorR> Sorry, don't know off the top of my head ...
07:38:41 <fizzie> I seem to recall it'd be with the other file systems (ooh!), but that might be the situation in 2.6.
07:39:02 <fizzie> It's deprecated in 2.6 in favour of udev, anyway.
07:39:09 <fizzie> But I think it already existed in 2.4.
07:40:00 <fizzie> I think I should focus on work now, though.
07:40:04 <calamari> I tried a 2.2 kernel, but it wouldn't compile.. gcc is probably too new
07:45:28 <calamari> ahh, it is in the filesystem menu, but I didn't have experimental selected so it was invisble
07:49:05 <GregorR> I love how devfs survived for like a year :-P
07:49:34 <calamari> yeah, what was wrong with it? worked for me
07:50:08 <GregorR> Always worked great for me.
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08:01:18 <fizzie> It's just that udev's better. :p
08:01:43 <fizzie> (Earlier 2.6 kernels had some deprecation rational in the kernel help, but none of the ones I have source for seem to include devfs at all.)
08:02:00 <nooga> and when the cloud bursts thunder in your ear
08:03:49 <lindi-> calamari: heh, i managed to avoid devfs completely, never used it on any machine :)
08:03:57 <nooga> from Pink Floyd's song ;p
08:04:15 <calamari> same question, no answer: http://kerneltrap.org/node/4893
08:05:05 <_wildhalcyon_> Actually, knowing pink floyd, that could still be iffy
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08:06:51 <_wildhalcyon_> actually, its 3am here and I've gotta get up at 8, so I'll catch you folks later
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08:16:48 <fizzie> Hack, hack, hack the boat.
08:17:41 <lindi-> calamari: i'm quite sure i had such a floppy somewhere
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08:18:41 <calamari> lindi-: It is getting confused because I'm doing the rather odd thing of not having a compressed root filesystem, so it figures it must be on a different disk
08:18:46 <fizzie> I seem to recall also having a combined boot+root disk which did not require a keypress. But it's been a long time since last booting with a floppy.
08:19:18 <calamari> fizzie: yeah, the code checks for that situation
08:19:30 <calamari> fizzie: if it is compressed, that is
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08:19:50 <lindi-> calamari: i even found the script i used to generate it, http://rafb.net/paste/results/DaAgyd94.html
08:19:54 <calamari> anyhow :) commenting out the keypress request did the trick
08:20:35 <fizzie> lindi; "Language: C++"?
08:20:45 <lindi-> didn't bother to change the default :P
08:21:05 <fizzie> test.C:1:2: error: invalid preprocessing directive #!
08:21:05 <fizzie> test.C:5:7: error: invalid suffix "k" on integer constant
08:21:05 <fizzie> test.C:6:7: error: invalid suffix "k" on integer constant
08:21:05 <fizzie> test.C:11:7: error: invalid suffix "k" on integer constant
08:21:05 <fizzie> test.C:2: error: expected constructor, destructor, or type conversion before ‘=’ token
08:21:49 <lindi-> now tell rafb.net to add automatic compilation as a feature ;)
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13:18:51 <SimonRC> (hmm... the ESO/OS makes no mention of PEOSIX)
13:23:13 <SimonRC> "< fizzie> Still, fixing badly-written interpreters should be the interpreter-writer's job; the C standard says that only writing a newline or calling fflush() is guaranteed to make output visible." <---- so, change the esoapi to put a newline at the end of every command?
14:47:42 <SimonRC> "The n option is slow." "There is no way to selectively follow symbolic links." :-)
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14:55:01 <ihope> Well, sheesh, it should be easy to write an Unlambda interpreter in Unlambda!
14:55:26 <jix> it's easier to write an lazy-k interpreter in lazy-k
14:55:31 <ihope> Of course, you got the evaluation order issues, but that shouldn't be too durn important.
14:57:47 <ihope> Just parse all your input, using the "reprint character read" function to deal with the output functions. Then use a fold to turn the resulting tree into Unlambda code, and have the rest of the interpreter evaporate.
15:08:05 <ihope> Yeah, the interpreter would be vaporware! :-)
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15:23:38 <ihope> Hmm, so all the most popular channels are about Linux?
15:25:09 <lindi-> hard to say what are most popular but certainly free software related channels are more popular than linux related, #kernelnewbies is the only linux related channel i know
15:26:00 <ihope> A /list will tell you what the most popular channels are :-)
15:26:22 <ihope> A /join'll do it on my client.
15:27:46 <ihope> Merging #gentoo, #ubuntu, and #debian would produce a large channel :-)
15:28:36 <lindi-> ihope: yes but none of those is about linux
15:29:08 <ihope> Okay, then. All the most popular channels are about GNU/Linux distributions.
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15:55:02 <lindi-> ihope: dunno, i'm not on any such channel on freenode
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16:26:40 <ihope> <ihope> Hmm, so all the most popular channels are about Linux?
16:27:10 <GregorR-W> On Freenode, all the most popular channels are about FOSS, and GNU/Linux is the flagship.
16:30:17 <ihope> Freenode is supposedly all about FOSS.
16:30:50 <ihope> However, apparently *I'm* all about FOSS, as I had mistaken Freenode for one of the big guys for a longish time.
16:31:48 <ihope> #esoteric here, #nethack here, #haskell here, #math here, #spore there, and #sporks somewhere else.
16:32:05 <GregorR-W> Freenode is /not/ one of the "big guys"
16:32:10 <GregorR-W> Freenode is one of the niche guys.
16:32:25 <GregorR-W> And it's a good thing, most IRC networks are terrifying, whereas Freenode is a pleasurable experience.
16:32:46 <jix> GregorR-W: fack
16:33:20 <ihope> I don't frequent anything at any of the "big guys".
16:33:23 <jix> full ack...
16:33:42 <ihope> Google "define:fack".
16:33:53 <ihope> The one result: "One circle of a coil of rope."
16:34:37 <ihope> Quakenet, EFnet, um... IRCnet? Then that other one...
16:34:57 * jix is building a robot that is going to KILL YOU ALL!
16:37:09 <ihope> So how come the big guys seem to use one-letter service bots? I guess because it's harder to typo one of those, and such typos probably won't be more than 3 characters long at worst, so all nicks that are 3 letters or shorter could be banned.
16:37:12 -!- ihope has changed nick to ih.
16:37:25 <ih> ...Owned by someone else? Aww.
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17:28:15 <lament> it's monday morning and i'm at work
17:28:40 <sedimin> I have evening here, and I came back recently
17:31:27 <lament> whenever you feel bad, just remember: somewhere on earth there's a beautiful sunrise right now :D
17:33:35 <GregorR-W> Whenever you are feeling very small or insecure, just remember how unlikely is your birth! And hope that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space, because it's bugger all down here on Earth!
17:34:50 <GregorR-W> [For some reason, lament's line seemed Pythonesque to me :P]
17:35:32 <sedimin> it reminds me the Whenever esolang
17:36:23 <sedimin> listen guys, i have one kind of problem
17:36:32 <lament> i have many kinds of problems
17:36:47 <sedimin> correction - i have one kind of problem right now :)
17:37:09 <sedimin> do you know how to emulate infinite array with a queue? I just can't get it
17:38:18 <sedimin> I think so, so it's not possible with one
17:39:23 * GregorR-W is too tired to think about this :P
17:39:37 <sedimin> too tired and it's just monday morning? :)
17:39:51 <GregorR-W> sedimin: Couldn't get to sleep last night :(
17:40:11 <lament> the obvious answer to your question is that infinite arrays don't exist.
17:40:21 <lament> It's possible to emulate an array of arbitrary length with a queue.
17:40:47 <sedimin> I did not obviously mean truly infinite array, as one cannot have infinite memory and stuff
17:40:56 <lament> It's not possible to emulate an infinite array even with two queues
17:41:01 <sedimin> but let's take and array of arbitrary length
17:41:18 <lament> then just put it in a queue
17:41:38 <lament> remember what index is at the head of the queue
17:41:48 <lament> and any time you need to get some element, just cycle through the queue
17:41:59 <lament> until you get to the corresponding index
17:42:15 <lament> (cycle by taking an element off the queue, then putting it right back)
17:42:50 <lament> with an infinite array, of course, you can't cycle
17:42:54 <sedimin> so I should have one variable that holds the position of the start of the queue
17:43:11 <sedimin> and when I cycle, then the value will change respectively
17:44:32 <sedimin> How do you call an array that changes its size when needed? something like inflating array?
17:47:26 <lament> they're the most boring data structure
17:49:34 <fizzie> "flexible array" is used somewhere.
17:52:15 <fizzie> C99 calls "a" in "struct foo { int x; long a[]; };" a "flexible array member", IIRC.
17:53:09 <sedimin> sometimes I think my English is worse than the one of primary school kid... :/
17:55:05 <GregorR-W> sedimin: Well, my Slovak is far worse than your English ;)
17:56:47 <sedimin> Isn't it just ''null''? :)
17:57:30 <sedimin> you see. and no exceptions in real life when you try to speak it
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19:51:32 <ihope> To simulate an infinite "tape" using a queue, you can just use a | to represent the tape head, and a $ to represent the "end" of the tape.
19:52:15 <ihope> So a 00011000 with the head right in the middle could be 0001|1000$, $0001|1000, 0$0001|100, 00$0001|10...
19:53:58 <GregorR-W> An infinite tape with an end, that's a new one :P
19:54:42 <ihope> Just add zeroes around the $ whenever you need more.
19:57:31 <ihope> Apparently those guys over in Hell are going to celebrate Tuesday.
20:00:39 <ihope> Now, it'd be rather weird if the world DID end then...
20:04:38 <kipple> The question is: will it be "The End" or "To be continued"
20:05:53 <kipple> haven't seen any doomsday prophecies in the news here. I would have thought some fanatics would have made at least some attempts to scare people
20:13:10 <fuse> so what's happening tuesday?
20:13:57 <fuse> oh. i see. 6/6/6.
20:14:28 <kipple> of course, it's actually 6/6/2006, but who cares...
20:15:43 <fuse> i think i read somewhere that, according to recent archaeological, the actual number is actually the far less ominous 616.
20:17:39 <ihope> How is 616 less ominous than 666, eh?
20:18:05 <fuse> supposedly, 666 has some numerological properties
20:18:29 <fuse> oh, nevermind, wtf do i know.
20:55:02 <ihope> So... do I *have* to study?
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21:05:35 <jix> it's a self built robot using some µC some lego some wires one loudspeaker.. some sensors...
21:05:41 <jix> some motors
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21:07:45 <SimonRC> lol: "They had a process on Skylab. In the storage compartment there were 2000 lockers, on the ground there was a team of six working in shifts with a pair of redundant computers keeping track of what was put in which locker."
21:08:43 <GregorR-W> The fairly ones are the worst kind!
21:08:59 <ihope_> NOO! NOT A FAIRLY ROUTE LOSS!
21:15:02 <SimonRC> actually, regarding 6/6/2006: http://imdb.com/title/tt0466909/
21:18:40 <SimonRC> I like the birthmark with 666 in Aribic (i.e. English) numerals. *sigh*
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21:22:06 <SimonRC> Hmm, actually, after reading the plot outline of that, the beginning of _Good Omens_ makes more sense.
21:24:30 <kipple> Good Omens is an awesome book. One of the funniest I've read
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21:30:55 <jix> moin _wildhalcyon_
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21:40:50 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
21:40:52 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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21:45:18 <jix> what's that?
21:45:47 <jix> umlaut-y p with a too large | and a big U???
21:48:10 <ihope> <jix> 畭污畴⁰⁷楴栠愠瑯漠污牧攠簠慮搠愠扩朠唿㼿
21:48:17 <ihope> <ihope> No, it's UTF-16!
21:48:54 <jix> hmm my client assumes all server traffic is utf16 if i switch the charset
21:49:55 <jix> but why should i use utf-16 at all?
21:50:00 <jix> it's not ascii compatible
21:51:44 <fizzie> The þ is called a thorn, not "p with a too large |". :p
21:52:11 <jix> but it is a p with a too large |
21:52:41 <fizzie> That's just what it looks like; I don't think it's a "p".
21:53:04 <jix> i was describing the look
21:53:30 <jix> and q + d = ?
21:53:42 <jix> is there a q with a too long | too?
21:54:49 <ihope> € + ¥ = C + Y + = + =
21:55:30 <jix> fizzie: WTF? how did you got THIS?
21:55:56 <fizzie> That's U+203D, "INTERROBANG".
21:56:34 <fizzie> I assume it's a close friend of ‼, the DOUBLE EXCLAMATION MARK.
21:57:42 <fizzie> X + | = ᛡ (U+16E1, RUNIC LETTER IOR)
21:58:14 <jix> 한글 << is that hangul?
21:58:27 <fizzie> And U + | = ᛘ. (U+16D8, RUNIC LETTER LONG-BRANCH-MADR-M)
21:58:41 <jix> i switched my keyboard layout to hangul and tried to type the word hangul
21:59:02 <jix> i want to learn korean
21:59:29 <fizzie> | + \ = ᚢ, RUNIC LETTER URUZ UR U. These have funky names.
21:59:38 <fizzie> Although the OGHAM SPACE MARK trumps all of these.
21:59:56 <ihope> What funky character set are all these?
22:00:27 <ihope> Is what I say still intelligible?
22:01:32 <fizzie> Unicode has superscript versions of [0-9], +, -, =, ( and ).
22:01:36 <fizzie> (And subscript versions, too.)
22:01:51 <ihope> Or whoo, or whatever.
22:01:57 <ihope> But what character set was that?
22:02:35 <jix> i just red a bit of information about the korean language.. i don't wont to learn it anymore....
22:03:00 <ihope> I never wanted to learn it in the first place :-)
22:05:53 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:06:15 <fizzie> UTF-16 might be useful for minor space-saving in CJK text; most of the characters would be 3 bytes in UTF-8.
22:06:29 <ihope> Quick, let's all suddenly switch over to UTF-16!
22:06:29 -!- cmeme has joined.
22:06:37 <SimonRC> and many would be 4 bytes in UTF-16
22:07:00 <SimonRC> that looks like thingy-thingy-H
22:07:14 <SimonRC> where thingy is the sign for unkonw char/corrupted UFT char
22:07:47 <jix> SimonRC: ÿöü döñt hävë ÿ???
22:08:29 <jix> öööööööööõöööööööööö which one doesn't belong here?
22:10:39 <ihope> Oh, that's not an answer; it's an emoticon.
22:16:41 <fizzie> Err; not _many_ are 4 bytes in UTF-16, only the characters outside the BMP, and those are some pretty freaky characters.
22:17:24 <pgimeno> 64K characters should be enough for anybody!
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22:19:07 <SimonRC> jix: I see a load of o:, one o~, and more o:
22:19:22 <jix> SimonRC: right
22:19:26 <fizzie> Well, it _should_: do you really need characters like VARIATION SELECTOR-42, TETRAGRAM FOR VASTNESS OR WASTING or MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-3.
22:19:40 -!- cmeme has joined.
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22:20:49 <SimonRC> and the best use of private use are award goes to: http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/
22:21:34 -!- ihope_ has joined.
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22:21:51 <fizzie> Apple has their Apple logo as the was-it-last-or-what letter in the private use area in OS X -bundled fonts.
22:22:24 <ihope> Well, it is the private use area.
22:22:49 <fizzie> I'm a bit disappointed that Klingon got nixed from Unicode proper.
22:23:28 <fizzie> Considering what the Interweb is like, I'm sure there'd be much more use for klingon characters than, say, OLD PERSIAN SIGN XSHAAYATHIYA.
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22:25:17 <lament> fizzie: i'm not disappointed at all
22:25:47 <fizzie> Lame, schmame; there's still Real Use (tm) for that stuff.
22:26:13 <ihope> "U+E06ETENGWAR DUODECIMAL LEAST SIGNIFICANT DIGIT MARK"
22:27:24 <ihope> "U+E0BCCIRTH LETTER KHUZDUL RIGHT-POINTING SCHWA"
22:28:18 <ihope> "U+F8FFKLINGON MUMMIFICATION GLYPH"
22:28:26 <ihope> What's a mummification glyph?
22:28:51 <SimonRC> There are 2^21 codepoints in Unicode. We can afford to allocate gigantic amounts to miscellaneous crap.
22:29:10 <SimonRC> Look at the IPv6 address allocations for another good example.
22:29:59 <SimonRC> Argh! My eyes! http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Misc/Eye_Of_The_Argon
22:32:07 <ihope> I think I've seen worse.
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22:44:24 <ihope> No, brb ends the program right then and there, doesn't it?
22:45:43 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
22:45:45 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
22:51:03 <ihope> No Omgrofl? Get with the times, man! ;-)
22:51:58 <GregorR-W> Glass will be better than every language until somebody makes Glass with derivation ^^
22:52:46 <ihope> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Har!"(_o)o.?]}
22:53:14 * GregorR-W doesn't even know what tldr means :P
22:53:51 <kipple> heh, I had to look that one up too
22:55:47 <ihope> No, the "ldr" is short for "loader", and the "t" stands for the same thing as it does in "Windows NT".
22:57:35 <jix> i'm writing an omgrofl interperetr
22:57:59 <jix> ruby written
22:59:07 <jix> <insert some incompatible buggy z80 clone that was only produced once as a prototype> inline assembler in ruby is portable isn't it?
23:00:16 <ihope> Why not add inline assembler to Haskell, to? :-P
23:00:28 <jix> well you know ruby inline? it allows to insert code written in other languages into ruby source
23:00:44 <jix> (it has only c and c++ support atm but who cares...)
23:01:03 <jix> oh and my interpreter is going to be interactive!
23:01:05 <ihope> Like the Haskell FFI, slightly.
23:01:32 <jix> you can write lines and the are going to be interpreted as soon as you input them...
23:01:48 <jix> and if you start it with the -r flag you can use readline!
23:01:53 <jix> ihope: like irb
23:02:22 <ihope> Institutional Review Board?
23:02:35 <jix> interactive ruby
23:02:41 <jix> do you have ruby installed?
23:02:55 <jix> if you do just start irb from the shell
23:02:59 <jix> and type 10+20
23:04:21 <GregorR-W> Then it'll reformat your hard disk.
23:04:31 <jix> GregorR: Pshhhh....
23:04:34 <GregorR-W> It's the default overload for the + operator.
23:05:47 <ihope> Okay. A Turing machine is now called a No-Grape machine.
23:06:47 <ihope> A Brainhype program with brace nesting level 1 is a One-Grape machine, one with nesting level 2 is a Two-Grape machine, etc.
23:06:56 <ihope> A Brainhype interpreter is a One-Banana machine.
23:14:52 <lament> ihope: can a one-banana machine tell if a one-banana machine will halt?
23:15:03 <ihope> lament: no, but a two-banana machine can.
23:15:25 <ihope> A one-banana machine can tell if *any* machine on the grape hierarchy can halt.
23:15:48 <lament> we need a class that will be able to tell if other stuff in the same class can halt.
23:15:56 <lament> (a superset of TC, of course)
23:16:26 <ihope> Oh, but you don't just want it to tell if other stuff in the same class will halt.
23:16:36 <ihope> You want it to be able to act on that in a Turing-complete manner.
23:16:39 <lament> i guess brainhype CAN do that.
23:17:14 <jix> lament: no there is a proof it can't
23:17:44 <ihope> lament: well, the "Brainhype-complete" class isn't in the Brainhype language.
23:17:56 <ihope> Brainhype defines grape machines.
23:18:06 <ihope> *Any* grape machine.
23:18:29 <lament> jix: it can, by definition
23:18:53 <ihope> lament: for every Brainhype program, there is a *different* one that will solve its Halting problem.
23:19:54 <GregorR-W> However, the brainhype program that solves some other Brainhype program's halting problem can be trivially shown to halt.
23:19:59 <GregorR-W> It has no branches or conditionals.
23:20:06 <jix> lament: argh i thought about one brainhype program that is able to solve tha halting problem for all brainhype programs...
23:20:19 <ihope> There's no Brainhype program that can answer the question "will this Brainhype program with this input halt?".
23:20:27 <ihope> For all programs and inputs, that is.
23:20:47 <lament> Right. but a brainhype interpreter can do that.
23:20:52 <GregorR-W> The Brainhype description doesn't even go into it.
23:20:57 <jix> yes you are all right i was wrong i am stupid ....
23:21:19 <GregorR-W> It's OK jix, you're cool because you've written both FYB and Glass code :P
23:21:30 <lament> if there's no IO, then the brainhype interpreter can check if a brainhype program halts.
23:21:42 <ihope> lament: that just means that a Brainhype interpreter isn't in Brainhype.
23:21:46 <lament> it would just do that by interpreting a _different_ program that adds braces around the old one.
23:21:48 <jix> GregorR-W: i have some simple ORK code on my HD too!
23:22:00 <lament> but if there's IO, then the brainhype interpreter can't do anything
23:22:00 <GregorR-W> jix: Ah, coolio, that makes you even more cool :P
23:22:12 <GregorR-W> By definition, if you've used a language I wrote, you're cool X-P
23:22:15 <jix> GregorR-W: but what if i don't want to be cool?
23:22:29 <GregorR-W> Your coolness has been irrevocably established.
23:22:48 <GregorR-W> You could feed puppies to blood-sucking mutated babies and still be cool.
23:23:18 <jix> for ext in fyb glass ork; do find / -name "*.$ext" | xargs rm ;done
23:23:28 <lament> it would probably be best to remove all IO from brainhype
23:23:55 <jix> (don't try this at home)
23:24:08 <lindi-> jix: find / -name "*.fyb" -o -name "*.glass" -o -name "*.ork" -type f -print0 | xargs -0 rm would do only one pass
23:24:20 <jix> lindi-: but it's longer
23:24:45 <jix> and i didn't know about the -o option
23:24:56 <jix> but that's useful...
23:25:11 <lindi-> find / \( -name "*.fyb" -o -name "*.glass" -o -name "*.ork" \) -type f -print0 | xargs -0 rm
23:28:09 <GregorR-W> stupid() { for i in $1/*; do if [ -d "$i" ] ; then stupid $i ; elif [ "`echo \"$i\" | grep -F '\.fyb$|\.glass$|\.ork$'`" ] ; then rm -f $i ; fi ; done } stupid /
23:28:48 <GregorR-W> Whoops, missed one set of quotes, that won't work if you have files with spaces:
23:28:53 <GregorR-W> stupid() { for i in $1/*; do if [ -d "$i" ] ; then stupid $i ; elif [ "`echo \"$i\" | grep -F '\.fyb$|\.glass$|\.ork$'`" ] ; then rm -f "$i" ; fi ; done } stupid /
23:29:13 <lindi-> GregorR-W: that will break if filename contains spaces
23:29:42 <GregorR-W> Pft, well the stupid idea is sound :P
23:29:51 <GregorR-W> And by 'sound' I mean 'ridiculous'
23:36:05 <jix> the negation part in omgrofl is not clear..
23:36:26 <jix> the text sais the nope has to be placed in front of iz the example says it's placed after iz...
23:36:42 <jix> should i allow both?
23:36:45 <lament> Consider lambda calculus extended with a function (will-halt f), that checks whether its argument halts
23:36:51 <lament> and is itself guaranteed to halt
23:36:52 <poiuy_qwert> yeah, a lot of stuff in omgrofl seem unclear
23:37:03 <lament> we can call this language Banana LC
23:37:04 <ihope> lament: how do you guarantee it to halt?
23:37:27 <lament> it's a wholly magical function.
23:37:38 <GregorR-W> Uuuuuuuuuuuse your imaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagiiiiiiiinaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation.
23:37:40 <lament> Can you write a banana lc interpreter in banana lc? I don't see why not.
23:37:54 <ihope> Is it restricted to those programs that will halt?
23:37:59 <ihope> That's the easy way :-)
23:37:59 <lament> Can you write a brainhype interpreter in banana lc? I don't see why not
23:38:24 <lament> no, it's not restricted to anything
23:38:46 <ihope> So (\x.xx)(\x.xx) halts in this language?
23:39:02 <jix> but (will-halt (\x.xx)(\x.xx)) halts
23:39:03 <lament> but (will-halt (\x.xx)(\x.xx)) does, and returns false
23:39:09 <lament> (some LC equivalent of false)
23:40:08 <lament> i don't see any halting-related problems banana lc can't solve.
23:40:43 <jix> (?x. x x)(z. (if (will-halt z) (infinity-loop) false)) what about this?
23:41:14 <ihope> (\x.(\y.y(xx))(\y.y(xx)))(\x.(will-halt x)((\x.xx)(\x.xx))(\x.x))
23:41:24 <jix> this program can't be interpreted in a proper way and this shows that a will halt can't be existent....
23:41:32 <ihope> That's the fixed point of the function (\x.(will-halt x)((\x.xx)(\x.xx))(\x.x)).
23:41:52 <jix> ihope: is it the same thing as my (not so lambdaish) example?
23:42:09 <ihope> jix: depends on what ? is, I think.
23:42:24 <jix> uhm it's \
23:42:34 <jix> it's lambda
23:42:41 <ihope> I don't think it's the same, then.
23:42:43 <jix> but it's wrong anyway
23:43:00 <lament> But brainhype is consistent?
23:43:08 <jix> well i wanted to write a program that halts if it doesn't halts and doesn't halts if it halts
23:43:37 <ihope> (z. (if (will-halt z) (infinity-loop) false))(z. (if (will-halt z) (infinity-loop) false)) = (if (will-halt (z. (if (will-halt z) (infinity-loop) false))) (infinity-loop) false) = (if true (infinity-loop) false) = infinity-loop
23:44:26 <ihope> lament: yes, because this contradiction depends on moving the "braces" to enclose themselves, or something.
23:44:48 <ihope> Everything in lambda calculus is dynamic, but the braces of Brainhype are static.
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23:47:12 <lament> but what about the brainhype interpreter?
23:47:33 <ihope> The Brainhype interpreter cannot solve its own halting problem because it is not a Brainhype program.
23:47:35 <lament> i guess that means that the brainhype interpreter can't be written in _anything_?
23:47:49 <lament> no matter how "superturing"?
23:48:19 <ihope> No, you just have to make it higher than anything in the grape hierarchy.
23:48:32 <ihope> That will bring it into the banana hierarchy.
23:48:52 <lament> i'm not sure there is a banana hierarchy
23:49:12 <ihope> Oh, lemme think...
23:49:14 <lament> i have a gut feeling that the brainhype interpreter would be equivalent to Banana LC in power
23:49:22 <lament> and, therefore, inconsistent
23:49:44 <ihope> The Brainhype interpreter could only be inconsistent if a Brainhype program were inconsistent, I think.
23:50:27 <ihope> Even though a Brainhype interpreter can solve the Halting problem for anything in the grape hierarchy, it doesn't have to solve that for anything in the banana hierarchy.
23:51:11 <jix> what about: (\x. x x)(\e. (if (will-halt (e e)) (infinity-loop) false))
23:51:36 <ihope> jix: I think that'll work.
23:52:46 <jix> that's a function that halts if it doesn't halt and the other way around
23:53:57 <lament> so a brainhype interpreter interpreter is step 2 in the banana hierarchy?
23:54:03 <jix> so there is no one-banana right?
23:54:13 <jix> lament: no
23:54:25 <jix> lament: a brainhype interpeter doesn't even have to be a banana
23:54:38 <jix> lament: because i showed a function that is valid banana but it can't exist
23:54:54 <jix> because it neither halts nor does it not halt
23:54:55 <ihope> It's not a valid banana, is it?
23:55:15 <ihope> Where is it on the banana hierarchy, then?
23:55:29 <lament> jix: banana lc is not on the banana hierarchy, apparently.
23:55:45 <jix> lament: ah
23:55:49 <lament> so it must be renamed to turnip lc :(
23:56:14 <lament> one banana is the brainhype interpreter. Two banana is a program capable of telling whether a brainhype interpreter will halt?
23:56:17 <jix> but you can't have an lc with a will-halt...
23:56:45 <GregorR-W> jix: That's a pretty mean contrived example :P
23:57:44 <jix> GregorR-W: well adding a will halt to an lc is like saying it can solve EVERY problem... and gödel showed that this can't exist... he did it that way... (a bit different)
23:57:48 <ihope> One banana is a machine that can invoke a Brainhype interpreter.
23:58:04 <ihope> I thought it was Turing that did that.
23:58:27 <jix> ihope: turing showed that it is impossible to decide wether it halts or not
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23:58:49 <ihope> Well, isn't this just an extension of that?
23:59:08 <jix> ihope: nargh i can't explain it in english...
23:59:16 <lament> i'm still not sure that there is a banana hierarchy
23:59:43 <ihope> lament: okay. You can have any machine in the banana hierarchy, then prove it doesn't exist.
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00:00:37 <jix> ihope: goedle showed that if you have a formal system(??) that is strong enough(??) there are things that aren't part of the system.. but the negation of the ting isn't part of the system either...
00:03:11 <jix> there is a pair of some_term_a and some_term_b that has the property that neither some_term_a == some_term_b nor some_term_a != some_term_b can be derived(??) from the axioms
00:04:07 <ihope> So there's an f and an x such that neither f(x) nor not(f(x)) can be proven?
00:05:16 <jix> he showed that by showing that by "writing an interpreter" of the system in itself (he only showed that it is possible) and used this to make an expression (to show that it exists) that says "i am wrong!"
00:05:48 <ihope> Aiee, a Google search for "lololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol" turns up results!
00:08:04 <jix> the discussion we had about the grapes and bananas is somehow related to the contents of the book "gödel escher bach" written by Douglas R. Hofstadter....
00:08:19 <jix> i didn't finished reading it yet
00:08:44 <jix> so i don't know everything about gödel's proof...
00:08:54 <jix> but it really is interesting...
00:09:28 <jix> and he is talking about the same problem.. that there is always a next step that is able to solve more problems but you can't have an highest step that can solve everything...
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00:16:26 <jix> moin calamari
00:16:35 <lament> a halt-checker for brainfuck is grape one
00:16:46 <lament> an interpreter for a halt-checker for brainfuck is grape two?
00:17:01 <ihope> s/interpreter/halt-checker/
00:17:13 <lament> but what about an interpreter.
00:17:19 <lament> a halt-checker is obviously grape two
00:17:28 <ihope> An interpreter for a halt-checker is simply a halt-checker.
00:18:35 <jix> ihope: that isn't true for brainfuck
00:18:45 <lament> an interpreter for grape 0 is grape 0
00:18:51 <lament> a halt-checker for grape 0 is grape 1
00:19:16 <ihope> Unless, of course, your interpreter can halt-check.
00:19:42 <jix> ihope: let's define interpreter as it doesn't check the program for halting but it just runs it...
00:19:49 <lament> but an interpreter for grape 1 cannot be grape 1
00:19:58 <jix> lament: why?
00:20:41 <jix> the problem with brainhype is it is banana-one right? it can check any grape (but not grape-infinity because that would be a LC + will-halt right?)
00:21:15 <lament> grape infinity would be an infinite program
00:21:17 <lament> we don't look at those
00:21:28 <ihope> Brainhype is the entire grape hierarchy,
00:21:42 <lament> a brainhype _interpreter_ is banana-one
00:22:17 <jix> i have to re-read the brainhype spec...
00:22:32 <jix> i think i've got something wrong...
00:22:43 <ihope> Every Brainhype program is somewhere in the grape hierarchy, and for every place in the grape hierarchy, there's a Brainhype program that can simulate everything in it.
00:23:13 <lament> and that brainhype program is in the same level of the hierarchy.
00:23:27 <jix> yes i know
00:23:59 <lament> actually i guess it's more appropriate to call a brainhype interpreter banana-0
00:24:03 <lament> since it doesn't halt-check anything
00:24:19 <ihope> It halt-checks the entire grape hierarchy.
00:24:36 <lament> well, apart from that :)
00:24:58 <ihope> Maybe banana 0 is the entire grape hierarchy.
00:25:09 <lament> a brainfuck interpreter is grape 0, it makes sense to make the brainhype interpreter banana 0
00:25:28 <ihope> Eh, make it so, then.
00:26:48 <jix> maybe we shouldn't call it banana 0 but grape-two-0 ... because we can continue that as long as we want
00:27:31 <ihope> Call that the melon hierarchy.
00:27:45 <ihope> Grape = 1-melon, banana = 2-melon, etc.
00:27:58 <jix> shouldn't we start with 0?
00:28:20 <ihope> You were the one who said banana should be number 2...
00:28:34 <ihope> I guess it can start with 0, then.
00:28:36 <jix> ihope: well i do make mistakes...
00:28:43 <lament> i'm still not convinced there IS a banana hierarchy...
00:29:04 <jix> lament: so you think there is a contradiction in the banana hierarchy?
00:29:09 <lament> and i'm certainly not convinced of existence of a hierarchy beyond the banana one
00:29:23 <lament> what would go in that one?
00:29:40 <jix> i think there is nothing behind the grape-0
00:29:42 <ihope> Things that could solve the Halting problems for everything in the banana hierarchy.
00:29:46 <jix> in reallaty
00:30:01 <ihope> jix: well, that's because reality is Turing-complete :-)
00:31:12 <lament> there's gotta be a contradiction somewhere :)
00:31:31 <lament> otherwise, we have a gigantic transfinite system of hierarchies
00:32:01 <jix> once i thought my contradiction could be a valid banana-0 / 1-melon-0 program
00:32:04 <ihope> The contradiction would be at infinity.
00:32:11 <lament> _wildhalcyon_: it does.
00:32:23 <ihope> There is neither a grape-infinity nor a banana-infinity.
00:32:54 <jix> nor an infinity-melon-infinity
00:33:03 <jix> but i think they would be all the same if they would exist...
00:33:08 <jix> they could all solve all problems
00:33:42 <lament> they can only halt-check things that are lower on the hierarchy
00:33:55 <jix> lament: well they are on the highest place of the hierachy
00:34:53 <lament> what level is a program that can halt-check an arbitrary Brainfuck program?
00:35:13 <lament> {program} doesn't count
00:35:26 <jix> lament: there is a brainfuck interpreter in branfuck
00:35:38 <jix> {brainfuck-interpreter-that-reads-source-from-memory}
00:35:58 <lament> however, you can't do that with brainhype
00:36:30 <jix> lament: you can write an interpreter for grape-1 in grape-2
00:36:47 <lament> but waht about banana-0??
00:37:15 <jix> lament: well we just defined it can solve all grape halting problems
00:37:15 <ihope> What about banana-0?
00:37:27 <lament> jix: you can write an interpreter for grape-1 in grape-1
00:37:39 <jix> lament: uhm yes
00:37:58 <jix> nargh i always write interpreter
00:38:04 <jix> when i want to write halt-checker
00:38:36 <jix> bsmntbombdood: they are different computational classes
00:38:41 <lament> can we get a better understanding of what banana-0 includes
00:38:49 <ihope> They're hierarchies of computational classes.
00:38:50 <lament> apart from (obviously) a brainhype interpreter
00:39:10 <lament> grape-0 includes all Brainfuck programs
00:39:14 <ihope> Should I write a Wiki article on the fruit hierarchies?
00:39:15 <jix> bsmntbombdood: i like some of them... and i dislike some of them... imho banana tates terrible...
00:39:22 <jix> bsmntbombdood: grape is tasty
00:39:34 <lament> grape-42 includes all brainhype programs with up to 42 levels of braces
00:39:38 <lament> what does banana-0 include?
00:39:47 <jix> bsmntbombdood: melon too but i'm allergic against(??) it
00:40:13 <jix> ihope: yeah i don't know the right wort to fit between allergic and it...
00:40:30 <jix> the german word there would be "gegen" that translates to "against"
00:40:47 <lament> is banana-0 a computational class at all? does it include anything other than a brainhype interpreter?
00:41:31 <lament> i mean, brainhype interpreter is the only thing in banana-0 that's not on the grape hierarchy somewhere
00:41:44 <ihope> lament: banana-0 is the set of all programs that can build arbitrary Brainhype programs and run them.
00:41:56 <jix> i'm not sure but wouldn't an instruction & added to brainhype that evaluets a finite piece of code stored on the tape be banana-0?
00:42:13 <ihope> jix: I think that would be contradictory.
00:42:24 <ihope> As long as you could put & on the tape, that is.
00:42:40 <jix> ihope: nargh that evaluates a brainhype program stored on the tape
00:42:54 <ihope> Okay. That would be banana-0, then.
00:43:08 <jix> ok i want a banana-n language...
00:43:35 <jix> the piece of code on the tape that is going to be evaluated has to be smaller than the current code? is that banana-n complete?
00:43:55 <jix> you can nest as many & as you want but not infinite...
00:44:09 <lament> why can't you nest &, anyway
00:44:22 <jix> ihope: no...
00:44:23 <lament> in lisp, you can nest eval as much as you like
00:44:35 <lament> eval (or &) does not move you up the hierarchy
00:44:37 <jix> lament: but you may not add a will-halt to lisp
00:44:47 <jix> that would be a contradiction
00:45:07 <lament> so you're saying that the presence of {} must be balanced by lack of eval
00:45:26 <ihope> At least, the lack of an unrestricted eval.
00:45:39 <jix> or a lambda calculus like behavior...
00:46:08 <lament> so banana-0 has one level of &, banana-1 two levels of &
00:46:47 <jix> ihope: but the evaluated code must be smaller than the original would throw it into the grape hierarchy...
00:46:51 <lament> which means the next hierarchy (after the banans) would have arbitrary levels of & and therefore would be inconsistent?
00:46:53 <jix> it would limit the numbers of {}...
00:47:23 <jix> lament: arbitrary but not infinity....
00:47:38 <jix> lament: as long as you don' reach infinity you don't have a problem
00:48:07 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: BF-PDA?
00:48:16 <jix> i think really the same thing (applied to formal systems or something like that) was discussed in the book i am reading
00:48:18 <lament> but the level of nesting of & cannot be determined in advance, anyhow
00:48:36 <ihope> I think grape-infinity, banana-infinity, and, in general, n-melon-infinity are all inconsistent.
00:48:44 <ihope> You guys are all confusing me...
00:48:50 <jix> ihope: yes and i think they are all the same
00:50:27 <jix> oh and did i say that Douglas R. Hofstadter started to invent nonsense names for this things too? just to get the reader away from the usual (pre-justiced??) thinking....
00:50:59 <ihope> Grape, banana, and melon all have very complex and meaningful histories. :-P
00:51:53 <lament> if banana-0 is brainhype with a & which is not allowed to be nested.
00:51:58 <jix> ihope: but they have NOTHING to do with the things we are talking about
00:52:09 <lament> and banana-1 is brainhype with a & which you can nest only once
00:52:13 <lament> then you're screwed right there
00:52:23 <lament> because you can't tell in advance how many times the & will be nested
00:52:23 <jix> lament: why?
00:52:31 <lament> by looking at the program
00:52:34 <ihope> Banana-0 can't use & for more banana-0, I think.
00:52:48 <ihope> It can use it for any grape, but not for banana-0.
00:52:53 <jix> lament: well you have a nesting count and if the nesting count reaches 2 the instruction & is a NOP...
00:52:54 <lament> ihope: that's what i said.
00:53:06 <jix> lament: what?
00:53:08 <lament> jix: that feels really dirty. but i guess you're right.
00:53:43 <lament> jix: but it still means the next fruit will be inconsistent
00:53:51 <jix> LOL if someone would stand behind me and read my logs he would think we are all crazy...
00:54:07 <ihope> 2-melon-0 would only be able to use & for bananas.
00:54:30 <lament> ihope: that's also true of bananas
00:54:46 <ihope> Banana-0 can only use & for grapes.
00:54:51 <jix> it would add an instruction / that reads the number of allowed & from the tapes and evaluates code read from the tapes...
00:55:25 <jix> we have only one tape right?
00:55:28 <lament> jix: are you SURE that's not equivalent to banana-0 in some way
00:55:39 <ihope> Don't complicate things in your attempts to simplify them...
00:55:49 <jix> lament: no... should i?
00:55:54 <ihope> Anyway, look up "one-banana problem".
00:55:59 <lament> jix: it sounds complex enough that it might be
00:57:05 <lament> i wish i had a banana-0 interpreter to play with
00:58:21 <jix> lament: can't be banana-0 you can write a banana-n interpreter in it
00:58:45 <ihope> You can only write a banana-0 interpreter in banana-0.
00:58:57 <jix> ihope: i'm talking about my 2-melon-0
00:59:18 <jix> _wildhalcyon_: go paste it on bash.org
00:59:35 <jix> lament: no...
00:59:54 <ihope> What are we wrong about?
01:01:24 <lament> i don't like the & instruction
01:01:38 <lament> i want a better banana-0 language
01:01:42 <jix> lament: neither i
01:02:20 <jix> but you get a m+1-melon-0 by taking a m-melon-0 and adding another kind of & instruction that reads the number (n) of the desired m-melon-n from the tape and executes a m-melon-n program from the tape
01:02:42 <jix> thus there is a m-melon-n for every finite but arbitrary high m and n
01:03:26 <jix> and you get a m-melon-n+1 by taking a m-melon-n by allowing to nest the added & kind instruction one level deeper...
01:04:01 <jix> lament: hard to imagine isn't it?
01:04:17 <jix> there is one?
01:05:47 <jix> but what is when we want a interpreter for an arbitrary m-melon-n ? lets say m-melon-n is the same as 0-basket-of-m-melon-n 1-basket-of-0-melon-0 is able to interpret all m-melon-n... is this possible?
01:05:49 <jix> lament: i know...
01:05:58 <lament> i want a better x-melon-y language
01:06:06 <jix> lament: we all want it..
01:06:24 <ihope> Yes, there can be baskets.
01:07:21 <lament> jix: see, this "basket" thing
01:07:29 <lament> jix: like i said, this just leads to a transfinite hierarchy
01:07:40 <ihope> What does "transfinite" mean?
01:07:56 <lament> jix: you can assign an ordinal number to every class
01:08:14 <jix> lament: i don't understand that.. my english isn't good enough...
01:08:28 <lament> 1 in brainhype with 1 level of braces
01:08:37 <lament> 1 is brainhype with 1 level of braces
01:09:16 <ihope> Oddly enough, this is all related to some thing I had once...
01:09:22 <ihope> I think it was called F-TR1.
01:10:11 <lament> omega^omega is, probably, 1-basket-of-0-melon-0
01:10:17 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_numbers
01:11:55 <jix> lament: yes you're right
01:13:15 <jix> ihope: is he?
01:15:01 <jix> lament: wait isn't omega^2 1-basket-of-0-melon-0?
01:15:46 <jix> i think omega^omega would give you a contradiction
01:16:06 <jix> because that would be 1......<infinite>....0-baslet-of-0-melon-0
01:16:24 <ihope> How do you know it's infinite and not arbitrary?
01:16:44 <jix> nargh i don't get this anymore...
01:16:48 <jix> i should go to bed instead
01:17:25 <jix> it's 2 am here...
01:17:50 <jix> (that's night right?)
01:17:52 <ihope> This discussion started about 2 hours ago.
01:17:58 <jix> i always confuse am and pm...
01:17:58 <ihope> jix: either that or morning :-)
01:18:37 * ihope tries to think of a good mnemonic
01:18:49 <jix> a is after and p is past...
01:19:00 <ihope> Well, A comes before P in the alphabet.
01:23:22 <_wildhalcyon_> anybody have non-constructive criticism on my crawl post?
01:24:08 <jix> like L0l n00b h0w ST00p4T??
01:24:31 <lament> _wildhalcyon_: YOU SMELL!!!
01:25:12 <lament> _wildhalcyon_: GO TAKE A SHOWER!! no, that's constructive
01:25:40 <bsmntbombdood> Is brainscrambler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainscrambler turing complete?
01:26:23 <jix> it seems to
01:26:41 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: I'm pretty sure it is.
01:26:49 <lament> i like this line: "You must have 3 infinitely (within reason) long stacks"
01:27:29 <ihope> But with two, it would be.
01:30:36 <jix> HAHA lemonlimeskull: You know you've been chatting too long when you think C:/> is some kind of depressed Arab smiley.
01:31:13 <lament> C:/> IS a depressed arab smiley.
01:31:23 <lament> C:\> is command prompt when you're on drive C:
01:31:35 <jix> lament: i copy&pasted from bash.org
01:31:38 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: yep.
01:37:22 <Asaph> yeah when I drop blocks I can't change their direction and position mid-fall
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01:45:12 <jix> tetris rules
01:45:17 <jix> oh and i should go to bed
01:50:53 <ihope> Dang, I keep mistyping "define" as "defube".
01:58:01 <jix> oh and i should go to bed
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02:05:35 <jix> oh and i should go to bed
02:16:31 * ihope contemplates an IRC server with only three channel names, but infinite channels
02:17:15 <ihope> Joining a channel would simply create a new one, but being invited to a channel would put you into the existing one.
02:19:54 <_wildhalcyon_> <malaclypse> The general rule on about people on IRC seems to be "Attractive, single, mentally stable: choose two"
02:21:33 <ihope> Alternatively, channels wouldn't have permanent names: you'd join a channel, and if you've seen a channel with that name before, you join it; otherwise, a new channel is created.
02:21:45 <ihope> Inviting someone to a channel would allocate a random channel name.
02:22:10 <ihope> I suppose there would have to be some sort of service to keep you from "losing" channels... call it A.
02:22:39 <jix> ihope: oh and you don't have nicks..
02:22:46 <jix> the first person you see is going to be A
02:22:49 <jix> the 2nd person B....
02:23:08 <jix> oh and i should go to bed
02:23:13 <ihope> Eh, maybe A would always be the service bot, but nicks would be given randomly.
02:23:46 <ihope> Well, maybe not randomly.
02:23:56 <ihope> It'd start with 0, then go to 1, 2, 3, 4...
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02:24:22 <_wildhalcyon_> I think it would be lots of fun to receive a new random name every time
02:24:57 <ihope> Yeah, it would be.
02:25:00 -!- _wildhalcyon_ has changed nick to random.
02:25:56 <ihope> Right after you choose a nick, it'd say nick!user@hostmask NICK :Hedral or something.
02:28:31 <ihope> I regularly tomato eat lampshades...
02:58:20 <GregorR> <malaclypse> The general rule on about people on IRC seems to be "Attractive, single, mentally stable: choose two"
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03:55:45 * ronhudson peers about looking for real people
03:58:43 <ronhudson> Hmm did I do that? Hey anybody see my new toy language on the esolangs wiki?
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04:01:54 <rhudson> I don't quite have the hang of XIRC yet.. Is anyone out there?
04:03:01 <rhudson> If you all are talking, I can't hear you?
04:04:02 <rhudson> Are you interested in computer languages?
04:07:35 <rhudson> Did you design one of your own? or do you use one of the others?
04:08:43 <rhudson> Does my text actually look blue on yellow to you, should I pick better colors?
04:09:12 <rhudson> I am building a small language myself, it's called Tiny.
04:10:15 <Robdgreat> strange. on my black background everyone else's text shows as white.
04:10:28 <Robdgreat> but yours shows as black (i.e. invisible)
04:11:18 <rhudson> Ok, a light blue visible on both white and black backgrounds.:^)
04:11:47 <rhudson> What languages have you built BSM?
04:14:24 <rhudson> There's a write up of tiny on the esolang wiki, another guy did a good re-write after
04:17:22 <rhudson> How many of those 22 users are bots?
04:18:41 <rhudson> Rob have you written any languages I may have heard of?
04:18:53 <Robdgreat> I just idle here because it's entertaining
04:19:49 <rhudson> I wrote tiny just recently, I think I am just about finished and have almost everything working.
04:21:04 <rhudson> so I am trying to get people to comment on it.
04:21:32 <rhudson> It's about equivalent to a "tiny basic"
04:22:51 <rhudson> Well, I have to travel tomorrow. So I gotta getup early.
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06:07:22 * lament likes exercising his tyrannical op powers
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13:46:04 <ihope> Hmm, how do I turn word wrap off in a text box?
13:51:00 <sedimin> in what framework or gui toolkit?
13:51:03 <ihope> A multiline text box in a web browser.
13:51:07 <ihope> Firefox, on Windows.
13:51:24 <ihope> From within the browser.
13:51:46 <sedimin> and the text box is contained in a page, right?
13:52:52 <sedimin> Attribute for <TEXTAREA ...>
13:53:21 <sedimin> but it could be done only by editing the html source, I don't think there is easy workaround to do so within the browser
13:58:30 <fizzie> Giving on the address bar an "address" like javascript:document.getElementById('id_of_the_textarea').setAttribute('wrap', 'off'); (or 'soft', 'hard') might work; apparently for mozilla you need to follow that with javascript:document.getElementById('...').style.display = 'none'; ...display = ''; to get it to update.
14:02:33 <fizzie> Actually, if you happen to have the DOM inspector component installed, you can just point-and-click at the box and edit/add the "wrap" attribute there.
14:05:03 <fizzie> That thing is so very fancy; now if they'd just allow drag-n-dropping the DOM nodes in the tree.
14:05:59 <fizzie> Actually, scratch that; seems that you can right-click-cut/copy/paste, which is almost as good.
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16:24:28 <ihope_> "Watson automatically finds and delivers results. Can your search box do that?"
16:25:22 <SimonRC> I have to type a query into my search box before it gets results for me
16:34:39 <ihope_> Well, what's that one Google thing called?
16:50:01 <ihope_> Really bad CAPTCHA: encode all the important stuff in ASCII in the least significant bit of each pixel, and display a random image on top.
16:50:21 <ihope_> That way, ONLY automated spambots would get in :-)
16:54:47 <ihope_> Now, how come when we think "futuristic", we think of flying cars and aliens and artificial intelligence and all that?
16:55:55 <ihope_> Would a guy from the 70's ever guess people would be using slate-blue-and-black laptops with touchpads and DVD drives?
16:56:41 <ihope_> Or these silver ones, even?
16:59:13 <ihope_> Hey, maybe a guy back then would have thought computers would be like little marbles that we'd just hold next to ourselves to use.
17:00:42 <ihope_> Or maybe that computers would be edible: just eat a computer, and you can do arithmetic with huge numbers and such in your head.
17:01:24 <ihope_> If you want to upgrade, just eat another one.
17:02:08 <ihope_> For parallel computation, buy the really tiny ones and eat a bunch of them.
17:05:58 <jix> but i'm allergic to apples!
17:06:08 <jix> (that's true...)
17:06:17 <jix> so i can't eat my computer...
17:19:33 <jix> i'm only used to the ruby regexp engine...
17:19:56 <poiuy_qwert> im trying to match something like <?:*> where ? is one of yMdhms and * can be anything
17:20:35 <jix> what is the problem?
17:21:07 <poiuy_qwert> well, if i test that regex on "test<d:test> and <y:with multiple> occurences?"
17:21:18 <lament> has anybody made a good x-melon-x language yet?
17:22:12 <jix> but you specified [^>] that shouldn't mach >....
17:25:24 <jix> SimonRC: read the logs
17:25:52 <lament> SimonRC: the language i'm still not sure exists
17:47:57 <lament> In order to move beyond the grape hierarchy, we have to be able to halt-check arbitrary pieces of code (given dynamically).
17:48:17 <lament> What if a piece of code has a syntax error?
17:49:24 <lament> I guess to simplify things we could use a language without syntax errors.
17:53:26 <lament> Or assume that a program with a syntax error always halts.
18:04:59 <lament> and a hierarchy of languages built on top of Scheme, each of which adds a new form of instruction H to the previous one.
18:05:06 <lament> instruction H performs halt-checking.
18:05:23 <lament> Scheme is also known as scheme-0
18:05:48 <lament> scheme-1 adds instruction (H0 <code>) that halt-checks scheme-0
18:06:10 <lament> scheme-2 adds instruction (H1 <code>) that halt-checks scheme-1
18:06:34 <lament> note that this is different from Brainhype because the code is given dynamically.
18:07:06 <lament> but, unlike Brainhype, the code is not written in the same language.
18:09:45 <lament> Then of course we have a language scheme-1-0 with an instruction (Hn <code>) that halt-checks scheme-n for any n
18:14:28 <lament> then of course we have a language scheme-1-1 with an instruction (H1-n <code>) that halt-checks scheme-1-0
18:14:57 <lament> Big question: how does all this relate to brainhype?
18:15:06 <lament> Is scheme-x-y x-melon-y?
18:17:41 <lament> brainhype can typecheck itself (although statically), whereas no "higher scheme" can ever typecheck itself.
18:30:11 <jix> yeah but brainhype isn't ONE computational class but it's grape-n...
18:30:27 <jix> and if it is grape-n it can't haltcheck grape-n but only grape-n-1...
18:31:42 <wildhalcyon> Where did the fruit terminology come from?
18:32:28 <lament> jix: well, in the specification it simply says that brainhype can halt-check brainhype.
18:32:59 <lament> jix: but of course since the code is given statically, every inner level being halt-checked has fewer braces so belongs lower down on the grape hierarchy.
18:33:27 <lament> yeah, i guess it makes sense that scheme-x-y is x-melon-y
18:36:22 <lament> now, instead of stupid names like H1-n
18:36:28 <lament> we just use ordinal numbers.
18:36:43 <lament> H0, H1, .... Homega, etc
18:37:44 <lament> I assume 1-melon-0 is Homega+1
18:38:16 <lament> i guess that fully solves this problem :)
18:38:36 <lament> (by reducing it to a previously solved problem of "what the hell are ordinal numbers")
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18:51:27 <kipple> sedimin: your new language has become quite popular lately :)
18:52:05 <sedimin> finally i did something good :)
18:55:04 <lament> Anybody feels like writing a brainhype interpreter in scheme-omega? should be trivial
18:55:32 <lament> (and, of course, impossible in any lower scheme)
18:57:16 <lament> you never need Homega to interpret a brainhype program
19:00:12 <lament> I thought that scheme-X (for ordinal X) is the entire hierarchy of halt-checking classes
19:00:55 <lament> to halt-check brainhype, you need a language less powerful than scheme-omega, but more powerful than scheme-N for any natural N
19:02:23 <lament> oh, i got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:02:42 <lament> omega is a limit ordinal
19:03:05 <lament> scheme-X for a limit ordinal X does NOT add a new instruction
19:03:23 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_ordinal
19:04:11 <lament> scheme-omega simply incorporates instructions Hn for any natural n
19:04:34 <lament> however, scheme-omega+1 incorporates an instruction Homega+1 which can halt-check scheme-omega
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19:43:28 <sedimin> lament, you had some problem?
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20:22:31 <ihope> I don't want to download anything.
20:22:58 <ihope> This is a Windows machine. Do they come with any programs other than telnet that are usable as IRC clients?
20:24:16 <ihope> It comes with telnet.
20:24:23 <ihope> That's usable as an IRC client.
20:25:42 <fizzie> There's not much to learn if you just want to chat.
20:26:07 <ihope> True, but the problem with Windows telnet is that it doesn't seem to support line buffering.
20:26:23 <ihope> It sends each character right away, so there's no backspace.
20:26:34 <fizzie> Don't make mistakes, then.
20:27:02 <fizzie> Many Windows machines come with MS Office; I guess that's usable as an IRC client if you just write some visual-basic-for-applications or what's-it-called to do it.
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20:28:41 <_ihope> Freenode seems to like telnet better than actual IRC client.
20:29:09 <_ihope> If I choose a bad nick, it tells me.
20:29:33 <_ihope> And once I send the NICK and USER commands, it pops right into the fully functional whatever.
20:29:54 <_ihope> No wating for the ident to fail.
20:38:44 <sedimin> cos i'm lazy to install Miranda plugin
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23:05:39 <lament> ihope_: am i not a genius?
23:15:54 <poiuy_qwert> what in your opinion is the best language to write a dos window interpreter?
23:22:40 <calamari> poiuy_qwert: the other dos emulators don't work for ya? :)
23:23:23 <calamari> <poiuy_qwert> what in your opinion is the best language to write a dos window interpreter?
23:23:49 <poiuy_qwert> and i dont know what "other dos emulators" is
23:24:12 <calamari> hmm.. well what is a "dos window interpreter"? maybe I misunderstand
23:24:38 <poiuy_qwert> like an interpreter that is run in a dos like window. something like Turbo Pascal
23:25:34 <calamari> well, if you can write it in ansi c, then it would also be portable to *nix
23:26:14 <poiuy_qwert> and ansi c is good for writing interpreters?
23:26:27 <fizzie> C and the curses API is a classic; there's pdcurses to run it on windows, and all *nix-alikes have it. (Isn't it part of POSIX anyway?)
23:26:37 <calamari> or are you trying to get full screen, colors, menus, mouse, etc?
23:27:30 <calamari> poiuy_qwert: python is also a good choice, didn't know that ran in plain dos tho
23:28:06 <fizzie> I would assume quite a lot of environments have curses bindings. Perl certainly does, and at least one Scheme interpreter. (Or was it a compiler?)
23:28:15 <calamari> if you have python available, I'd choose that over ansi c..
23:28:48 <jix> fizzie: ruby has curses bindings
23:29:07 <calamari> you lose a little speed, but it is a better lang overall
23:29:15 <poiuy_qwert> too bad i dont have cureses and cant find it for python
23:29:42 <jix> calamari: http://ruby-doc.org/docs/ProgrammingRuby/ << this is the (free) 1st edition
23:29:46 * jix has the 2nd one at ome
23:30:03 <fizzie> http://flangy.com/dev/python/curses/
23:30:06 <calamari> jix: what is the style of the book.. reference?
23:30:08 <fizzie> "Curses for Windows for Python"
23:30:18 <jix> calamari: tutorial + reference
23:30:19 * calamari dislikes chatty books.. I like to look things up
23:30:29 <jix> calamari: skip the first parts
23:31:11 <jix> i think the first 2 or 3 chapters are really boring because they explain to much obvious things... but the other part is really great
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23:42:58 <lament> poiuy_qwert: why the hell are you using ods?
23:43:33 <poiuy_qwert> becuase if the language only has simple imput and output, why use something else?
23:43:46 <jix> i think he isn't using plain dos
23:44:01 <jix> because he said a dos window interpreter....
23:44:10 <jix> and in plain dos you don't have a dos window...
23:44:11 <poiuy_qwert> well cureses seems to give a special window so its not really dos
23:44:30 <jix> poiuy_qwert: i think you confuse the term dos with something else...
23:44:30 <lament> poiuy_qwert: because liunx is nice.
23:44:36 <jix> dos is disk operating system...
23:44:43 <lament> and yes, i don't think dos means what you think it menas
23:44:56 <jix> poiuy_qwert: right!
23:45:30 <jix> poiuy_qwert: but dos allows you to use VGA graphics!
23:48:44 <calamari> you can do anything with dos.. really :) even if that involves starting linux with loadlin ;)
23:50:23 <calamari> I use dos networking progs on my laptop to connect to my main system via ssh.. way faster than loading linux or windows to do the same thing. and, I can turn off the computer whenever I want to
23:55:35 <jix> isn't there a SSH-OS ... has support for A LOT of network cards and maybe a WIFI scanner and a build in ssh client... would be cool
23:55:54 <jix> put it on a floppy or USB stick and access your computer from everywhere...
00:01:11 <lament> jix: help me with scheme-omega!
00:03:36 <wildhalcyon> I know someone had mentioned melon, and I think orange, earlier, but not pineapple
00:04:07 <lament> there will be a pineapple if you help me with scheme-omega
00:07:28 <wildhalcyon> lament: I don't know enough about scheme-omega to help. I'm not good with cardinality
00:07:50 <lament> this is not really a cardinality question
00:09:26 <lament> the question is: is there any difference between providing and not provinding a Homega instruction in scheme-omega?
00:10:05 <lament> scheme-omega already has instructions Hn for all natural numbers n
00:10:28 <lament> therefore it can halt-check any scheme-n
00:10:49 <lament> but it has to know in advance which Hn to choose
00:11:40 <lament> H-omega would be a single instruction capable of halt-checking ANY scheme-n
00:12:09 <jix> well this way the program is always a valid scheme-n progra
00:12:20 <jix> so it isn't something better than that scheme-n
00:12:28 <lament> you can generate the instruction on the fly
00:12:45 <lament> i'm sure you can do something like that in Scheme
00:14:59 <lament> i thought originally that you would need the Homega instruction
00:15:07 <lament> but really, you don't need Homega to interpret Brainhype
00:15:32 <lament> you just count how many levels of braces the brainhype program has
00:15:39 <lament> and use the corresponding Hn
00:17:19 <lament> (to make this easier, the 'n' should be an argument to H)
00:17:32 <lament> (so the H instruction would be (H <ordinal> <code>))
00:20:48 <wildhalcyon> Im not sure how that happened. My fingers have a mind of their own
00:20:59 <lament> it can't be an argument
00:22:03 <lament> can't be generated on the fly either
00:25:40 <lament> (yes it can, and yes it can)
00:26:26 <lament> here's an actual question as opposed to a rant.
00:28:24 <lament> here's some more ranting.
00:29:04 <lament> I can make a program that simply runs (Hn '()) in an infinite loop.
00:29:09 <lament> increasing Hn every time.
00:30:15 <lament> Obviously this program is not scheme-n for any natural n
00:30:28 <lament> however it CAN be halt-checked with Homega
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00:46:02 <lament> i think the only sane answer to that question is "no"
00:46:20 <lament> it's a scheme-omega program
01:10:29 <SimonRC> ihope_: if you set up dgamelaunch on a box you own, you could use that to launch an publicly-accessible locked-down IRC client of some kind.
01:12:40 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/langs/omgrofl/ << not sure wether it works or not
01:17:21 <jix> interpreter
01:43:00 <bsmntbombdood> Does anyone have any brainscrambler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainscrambler) programs?
02:27:36 <GregorR> I think that amounts to "no, we don't"
02:31:16 <ihope_> You can translate a BF program into a Brainscrambler program easily enough.
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08:57:36 <sedimin_> I have a little problem with esolang wiki - In every browser I have installed I tried to edit large page (http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants), with fixed TOC, but the server always closes connection when I try to save changes....
08:58:15 <sedimin_> and I just can't get to save the edited page or preview it
09:00:08 <bsmntbombdood> how come you are using esoteric.voxelperfect.net instead of esolangs.org?
09:01:23 <sedimin_> when I first came there through google, and I bookmarked it, it was always this link
09:03:19 <sedimin_> hm, now I see that wikipedia links to esolangs.org
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14:01:05 * SimonRC curses the previous owners of this SGI workstation.
14:01:37 <SimonRC> It is set to boot from disk, but there are no disks in it.
14:02:43 <SimonRC> Fortunately, it is not an IBM PC (by definition), so it has a boot prompt (with flashy graphics and a twangy startup sound), with which I am supposed to be a ble to get it to netboot.
14:05:04 <SimonRC> eklisha (my PC) is acting correctly as a DHCP server, but I will have to RTFM for tlwpenst (the SGI), to get it to retrieve the correct file from elkisha.
14:05:29 <SimonRC> well, you can hardly expect support for things found in the junk pile round the back of the engineering dept.
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14:29:57 <sedimin_> why the smallest bugs take the most time to find and fix?
14:44:15 <ihope> The same reason smaller "real" bugs are harder to see than larger ones?
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16:51:30 * SimonRC has an SGI workstation, for those who missed the news
16:52:35 <ihope> Woot, it looks like the regex /(s?[b-df-hj-np-tv-z]?[rlwy]?[aeiouy]{1,2}[b-df-hj-np-tv-z]{0,3})*/ matches English-sounding words :-)
16:52:40 <SimonRC> I got it from the junk pile behind the engineering dept
16:53:06 <SimonRC> It lacks a disk, and netbooting is turning out to be tricky
16:53:52 <SimonRC> A serial cable is high on the to-buy list
16:54:32 <ihope> Oops, forgot about the QU rule.
16:54:42 <GregorR-W> Yeah, that's the only problem with that word.'
16:55:46 <ihope> /(s?[b-df-hj-np(qu)r-tv-z]?[rlwy]?[aeiouy]{1,2}[b-df-hj-np(qu)r-tv-z]{0,3})*/?
16:56:31 <GregorR-W> Oh, I didn't notice the s at the beginning
16:56:57 <SimonRC> oh, wait, there's a * at the end...
16:57:01 <SimonRC> yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
16:57:37 <SimonRC> your regex needs some work,ihope
16:58:15 <ihope> At least I can now tell you how many syllables the word "English" has.
16:58:43 <GregorR-W> ihope: ... yeah, because the word English has a really ambiguous number of syllables.
16:58:45 <SimonRC> challange: make one for Ithkuil.
16:58:51 <ihope> Maybe-consonant, vowel, maybe-vowel, maybe-'n'?
16:59:00 <SimonRC> should be easier than english, as it has a formal definition
16:59:11 <ihope> Oh, wait, a syllable can have an 'e' on the end!
16:59:41 <GregorR-W> Now here's an ambiguously-syllabic word: Male/mail. Pronounced the same, but 'male' clearly has one syllable whereas 'mail' clearly has two :P
17:05:40 -!- cp has quit ("Lost terminal").
17:06:05 * ihope wonders why the Latin alphabet or whatever it's called has two ways to write every letter
17:07:12 <ihope> PeoPlE wiLl StIll uNDeRstAnD yOu jusT FiNe If yoU mIx AnD MatCH, bUt thErE'S STilL a CoRrecT Way tO Do ThiNGs.
17:07:36 <GregorR-W> I thought you were referring to c-k-q, ee-y, oo-w, ec.
17:08:49 * ihope wants a language with three such cases
17:18:09 <SimonRC> see some forms of english from past times
17:18:17 <SimonRC> there were effectively 3 cases
17:19:20 <SimonRC> there was a case you used for the first leter of chapter, a case for the first leter of all other verses, and a case for body of the text
17:19:48 <SimonRC> (Well, what else would one be writing other than the Bible?)
17:20:29 <ihope> By the way, does Unicode have a way to represent a lowercase letter 's' with an inverted circumflex accent over it?
17:20:41 <ihope> Or, more specifically, UTF-8.
17:33:07 <ihope> U0015D is close...
17:33:53 <ihope> ŝ <- but not quite
17:35:23 <fizzie> 0145? My code charts say it's U+0161, File f = new File(args[0]);
17:35:23 <fizzie> System.out.println(f.getParentFile());
17:36:36 <ihope> Yeah, but 0145 does say "caron", which is what I needed.
17:37:15 <SimonRC> the keystroke is alt+0145 in windows
17:37:33 <fizzie> U+0145 is Ņ, "LATIN CAPITAL LETTER N WITH CEDILLA".
17:37:34 <ihope> So now I can say what I wanted to say: "So cuon er so ailuro eu druki. Cuon ride še slušir misotém ailurei. So ailuro e arašó rizuec."
17:37:52 <ihope> WHY IS UNICODE SO LOUD?
17:38:12 <fizzie> It sounds more absurd when spoken OUT LOUD.
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18:14:33 <SimonRC> seen on slashdot: "Finding political speech on the internet is like finding poop in the toilet: it's easy to find, but you don't want to see it."
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18:32:12 * SimonRC gets an email from his mother: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~sc/tmp/flags.txt
18:33:23 <GregorR-W> SimonRC: All American drivers in Britain will be required to display three such flags :P
18:39:38 <ihope> So how do words pop between languages?
18:40:46 <GregorR-W> <English guy> Hey, I don't have a word for that thing you give a prospective employer! <French guy> L' résumée? <English guy> Oui, oui!
19:07:41 <ihope> Well, I think it's easy enough to add infinite memory to BackFlip.
19:08:21 <ihope> % goes up (which is not the same as north) and ~ goes down (not to be confused with south)
19:09:00 <ihope> Going "up" lands you at a copy of the program, except with ~ and % swapped, and ~ does the same thing.
19:09:30 <ihope> That is, all "levels" of the program are the same, except that "odd" levels have ~ and % swapped.
19:32:13 * ihope wishes all the software developers were forced to use really slow computers for testing
19:32:57 <ihope> And by "really slow", I mean "having a processor speed measurable in kilohertz"
19:33:51 <ihope> And by that, I don't mean "hey, look, I get the 4194304kHz processor!" I mean 20kHz.
19:34:39 <ihope> Nah, that's too harsh. Let's give 'em all 4MHz.
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19:44:03 <lament> thanks to whoever put that wikipedia link on the banana scheme page
19:47:13 <ihope> Don't tell me Wikipedia has something on the grape and banana hierarchies.
19:48:18 <lament> anyway http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Banana_Scheme
19:48:46 <lament> but that link added by Orjan pretty much explains everything (i assume. it's too complicated to actually read :) )
19:51:47 <lament> - added Brainhype to the banana scheme page
19:52:42 <lament> now somebody should write a brainhype interpreter
19:55:04 <ihope> What language should it be written in?
19:57:16 <lament> i.e. you're allowed to use (H N <code>) for any finite N
20:01:20 <ihope> Next is ^], but I don't feel like typing that.
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20:08:10 <kipple> oops. I see I typed on the wrong screen :)
20:09:39 <kipple> nice to see someone got something "meaningful" out of it though ;)
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20:14:12 <sedimin> gotta study for the computer architecture exam ;)
20:16:26 <sedimin> how are things going btw? everybody at work?
20:17:29 <sedimin> neither here, but the american guys may be
20:20:32 <GregorR-W> I thought it was pretty obvious :P
20:20:53 <sedimin> well, what is then the tag for SimonRC? :)
20:21:04 <sedimin> I don't think it's the Release Candidate
20:21:05 <lament> i thought W was for Wacation.
20:21:28 <sedimin> or maybe @WC.. i know folks who take ICQ to the toilet
20:22:23 <jix> sedimin: http://www.harderweb.de/jix/langs/omgrofl/
20:23:44 <sedimin> but I don't speak ruby so it's like korean to me
20:24:29 <jix> in interactive mode it has tab completion
20:24:34 <jix> (if you have readline support installed)
20:27:40 <ihope_> So what's the L in "GregorR-L"?
20:28:07 <ihope_> And I'm not spewing gibberish whenever I use the backspace key, am I?
20:28:30 <jix> ihope_: huh?
20:28:46 <sedimin> we should decide about official extension for omgrofl code :P
20:29:11 <jix> .omgrofllolwtfloooolpwndlolroflmao
20:29:34 <ihope_> Does omgrofl already have a "pwnd" command?
20:29:46 <jix> one could use that to check for EOF
20:30:16 <kipple> yeah, it should have some file operations
20:30:35 <jix> pwn x will call file operation x
20:30:52 <jix> or should it be: x iz pwnd
20:30:58 <ihope_> File operations? Sheesh... you might as well turn it into a high-level language :-P
20:31:17 <kipple> why not? not all esolangs needs to be excessively minimalistic
20:31:26 <jix> well do whatever you want... i'll implement it..
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20:31:46 <ihope_> I like programming languages that are to one extreme or the other in terms of I/O capability.
20:31:47 <jix> oh and my interpreter gives MEANINGFULL error msgs...
20:32:15 <jix> i think that is something special about esolang interpreters...
20:33:02 <jix> if there is a syntax error it tells you the line and what is allowed in that place....
20:33:29 <jix> "Syntax Error on line 1: brb without matching rtfm or wtf"
20:33:37 <sedimin_> that's really better than just crashing or hogging up memory/cpu
20:33:43 <jix> Syntax Error on line 2: tldr placed outside of a rtfm loop
20:33:53 <sedimin_> I think of creating Omgrofl IDE
20:34:05 <ihope_> Shouldn't that be "an rtfm loop"?
20:34:48 <jix> whoops there is a bug in the interpreter..
20:34:54 <ihope_> Yes, but you're not saying the word "rtfm"; you're saying the letters.
20:35:00 <kipple> it's how you pronounce it that counts, and then it starts with a vowel. so it should be "an"
20:35:05 <jix> ihope_: i say read the fucking manual
20:35:22 <jix> and that starts with R
20:36:11 <jix> wtf lol iz
20:36:12 <jix> omgrofl.rb:195: undefined method `size' for nil:NilClass (NoMethodError)
20:36:12 <jix> from omgrofl.rb:171
20:36:41 <ihope_> :brown.freenode.net 421 ihope_ nknown command
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20:38:51 <jix> argh there are some bugs in the interpreter
20:38:56 <jix> i really should have tested it...
20:38:59 <ihope_> Hee hee, I turned my terminal thingy green.
20:39:10 <jix> i'm going to fix them tomorrow or.. uhm....
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20:40:10 <ihope_> Error: too many sedimins. Please GHOST some, then try again.
20:43:16 <ihope_> I'd give you a Haskell expression that does that, but my arrow keys don't work, and that makes it Abosulutely Out of the Question.
20:43:51 <SimonRC> hehehe: http://www.panexa.com/ "Panexa. Ask your doctor for a reason to take it."
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20:46:04 <sedimin____> did you read this somewhere? :) Imagine if the State of the Union address were hacked because the TV
20:46:04 <sedimin____> station decided to save money by using Linux? Imagine if a
20:46:04 <sedimin____> stealth-bomber crashed because it's software was written by anonymous
20:46:05 <sedimin____> And guess what software Osama Bin Laden uses on his laptop?
20:48:14 <ihope_> So if I PING ihope :clarke.freenode.net, will my server actually deliver the PING to clarke, which will have a PONG delivered to me?
20:48:54 <jix> ihope_: you are using plain telnet?
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20:49:35 <ihope_> "Do not taunt PANEXA."
20:52:50 <jix> test [45m test
20:53:02 <jix> ihope_: hm?
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20:53:50 <ihope_> Do not taunt PANEXA...
20:54:17 <GregorR-W> Where did you get that particular line of idiocy from?
20:54:26 <sedimin> as I said. the sedimins are disconnecting
20:54:39 <GregorR-W> Nonono, "Imagine if the State of the Union address were hacked because the TV"
20:55:36 <sedimin> http://shelleytherepublican.com/2006/04/20/linux-a-european-threat-to-our-c
20:55:46 <GregorR-W> OH, that Shelly the Republican thing.
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20:56:11 <sedimin> it's just good for the everyday amount of laughter
21:01:02 <jix> uhm thats satire isn't it?
21:05:02 <ihope_> It shouldn't be too hard to write an IRC client.
21:09:12 <ihope_> Is it okay if I don't implement CTCP?
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21:11:13 <GregorR-W> Why would you write a question mark.
21:11:36 <ihope_> I want to have an IRC client such that I know exactly how it works.
21:11:59 <sedimin> would you want to have a woman that you know exactly how she works?
21:12:46 <ihope_> sedimin: depends on whether IRC clients count as women or not :-P
21:12:59 <GregorR-W> sedimin: Yes, but when I finished cutting her up I didn't have a woman anymore :(
21:13:26 <sedimin> i would not count woman as an IRC client :/
21:13:41 <sedimin> and talk to other "IRC clients"
21:14:02 <sedimin> can also be killed, disconnected or set up
21:14:59 <sedimin> now i don't see why woman can't be used as irc client ;)
21:17:15 * SimonRC reconsiders the "jam every other day" argument in Alice in wonderlan in terms of different binding times.
21:19:44 <ihope_> I noticed that English has a missing grammar construct.
21:20:25 <ihope_> If you have an alarm clock, and you know when it will go off, then you have an alarm clock ___
21:20:29 <GregorR-W> Really, any tense but present and past.
21:20:35 <sedimin> then you have alarm clock went off
21:21:06 <ihope_> You have an alarm clock, and you know when it will go off...
21:21:07 <GregorR-W> sedimin: I don't even know what concept you think should go in the blank ...
21:21:44 <sedimin> is should be some kind of passive
21:21:50 <ihope_> Oh boy, you guys are confusing me.
21:22:03 * ihope_ stiches back to an IRC client
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21:22:05 <sedimin> so what about creating English++?
21:22:16 <GregorR-W> English with object orientation? :P
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21:22:30 <sedimin> but it would be backwards-compatible with English
21:22:48 <GregorR-W> ihope: If you have an alarm clock, and you know when it will go off, then you have an alarm clock, the alarm time for which you know.
21:23:42 <sedimin> isn't it the same as: I had some food, and when my dog ate it, it was eaten?
21:23:43 <ihope> But I said knowing when it will go off, not knowing its alarm time.
21:24:08 <sedimin> yes, somebody might have set the time differently that I thought the alarm clock was set to
21:24:22 <sedimin> ->so you don't know the time.
21:25:03 <ihope> What's not a grammatical construct?
21:25:41 <sedimin> more specifically, the thing that should fill the gap
21:25:56 <sedimin> and if it fills the gap, so it is filler, not a gramatical construct
21:29:03 <GregorR-W> If you were inventing a tense, or type of word, or something, that'd be a grammatical construct.
21:30:34 <jix> LOL there was a picture of someone jerking off on the german wikipedia main page!
21:31:33 <jix> someone replaced a picture of Joseph von Fraunhofer witht that..
21:31:48 <ihope> What's up with pictures like that appearing on main pages?
21:53:32 <sedimin> w00t this rules: http://www.mobilityguru.com/2006/06/07/sonys_tiny_windows_xp_powered_micro_pc/
21:57:36 <ihope> Will "normal" Windows software run on it?
21:59:26 <ihope> How big's the keyboard?
21:59:48 <sedimin> but bluetooth keyboard could be connected
22:00:35 <kipple> if it's x86 it should work, but you'd probably need some custom drivers...
22:01:20 <sedimin> at least linux console will surely run without trouble with drivers
22:01:57 <kipple> probably needs a special keyboard driver
22:02:16 <kipple> the graphics and networking seems to be pretty standard, so they might work out of the box
22:02:22 <kipple> but what do I know... :P
22:02:27 <sedimin> but it features Intel graphics chipset, and also intel network
22:02:42 <sedimin> i think the keyboard will work like all keyboards on notebooks
22:03:31 <GregorR-W> That should run practically out-of-the-box then
22:03:44 <GregorR-W> Intel graphics are about the best supported on GNU/Linux in terms of purely OSS drivers.
22:04:13 <GregorR-W> Intel WLAN, not so much, but getting there :P
22:04:31 <sedimin> (not like my ati+broadcom+god-knows-what stuff ;) )
22:17:30 <kipple> fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfx3Gh7_QcY&search=sith%20emperor%20darth%20vader
22:32:10 <ihope> Time for a reboot!
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22:50:19 <ihope> So Wikipedia says it's not an indiscriminate collection of information.
22:50:36 <ihope> Where can I go to find an indiscriminate collection of information, then?
22:50:52 <ihope> "Wikistuff: the free indiscriminate collection of information."
23:00:05 <ihope> I guess what I'm looking for is "Wikistuff: the free *consolidated* indiscriminate collection of information that anyone can edit".
23:05:55 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:06:13 <GregorR-W> Does the information have to be true?
23:06:31 <GregorR-W> If so, it's automatically discriminate, if not, it's worthless.
23:06:48 <ihope> Well, there'll always be someone discriminating.
23:09:52 <ihope> "In this way you can paint a computer on your wall and if it's not powerful enough you put on another coat of computer."
23:10:40 <ihope> (The above quote is from http://future.wikia.com/wiki/Computronium. It is available under the GNU Free Documentation License--see http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html.)
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23:42:10 <GregorR-V> larsivi|Zzzsaws off GregorR-W with his Zs :P
23:42:13 <GregorR-V> <GregorR-V>You sawed half my W off!
23:43:01 <lament> 15:42 [freenode] -!- larsivi|Zzz [n=larsivi@062016230103.customer.alfanett.no]
23:43:01 <lament> 15:42 [freenode] -!- ircname : Lars Ivar Igesund
23:43:01 <lament> 15:42 [freenode] -!- channels : #D.Tango #dmedia #trout #ddl #TitanKernel #d
23:43:36 <GregorR-V> #d is the intersection of those two channel lists, lament.
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02:18:38 <SimonRC> ihope: try everything2 for an indiscriminat collection of information
02:19:05 <SimonRC> At the bottom of each page there is a collection of a couple of dozen links of varying relevance
02:19:42 <SimonRC> I generally get to one page from a Google search, and end up reading it for 6 hours or something like that
02:20:03 <SimonRC> do not, of courese, forget the "uncyclopedia".
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04:21:48 <vincenz> I am in the need of some very important elp
04:22:34 <vincenz> I need a good name for my programming language
04:44:39 <GregorR> Why don't you explain some of its features?
04:44:47 <vincenz> it's a mixture of haskell and ml
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06:31:08 <GregorR> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/Jefish.jpg
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08:09:54 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
08:09:56 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
08:10:00 <GregorR> Wow, what a survivor it is today :P
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11:55:57 <SimonRC> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=119185
11:56:21 <SimonRC> "Bugzilla Bug 119185 – if rpm exits in mid-transaction, the RPM data base can be left in an inconsistent state"
11:57:33 <SimonRC> <if /usr is mounted RO, rmp leaves it database in an inconsistant state> <don't do that then> <it's a bug> <no it isn't> etc
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18:42:07 <lament> is Oerjan Johansen here?
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19:08:03 <ihope> My English word regex was a failure (mostly because English is so weird, I'm sure), so now I'll try a Spanish one.
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19:33:12 <ihope> All stereotypes are stupid!
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19:36:19 <sedimin> hm. what is the EOF defines as? it varies from OS to OS or from what?
19:37:19 <ihope> Isn't EOF obsolete? :-P
19:38:42 <sedimin> ehm -> http://rafb.net/paste/results/Y0qnBt87.html
19:39:15 <sedimin> the problem is, it runs for infinite amount of time
19:41:34 <fizzie> If by "EOF" you mean the C language macro in <stdio.h>, it _can't_ be 0, because: "EOF which expands to an integer constant expression, with type int and a negative value, that is returned by several functions to indicate end-of-file, --" (C99 7.9.1, paragraph 3.)
19:42:16 <fizzie> (If you mean some other EOF, disregard the previous.)
19:43:03 <sedimin> I think the general end-of-file expression
19:44:06 <sedimin> for example, brainfuck cat program is ,[.,] I think. so when the current cell value is 0, then it ends
19:45:22 <fizzie> I don't think there is any "general end-of-file"; especially with brainf*ck environments EOF seems to vary between 0, 255 and no-change.
19:46:37 <fizzie> (And probably -1, too, if there are some non-byte-cells.)
19:47:14 <sedimin> but imagine you have a program of some kind (cat for example) and you are giving it input. then you give it ctrl+z in windows, or ctrl+d in linux
19:48:35 <fizzie> It stops if the cat program has been written to understand the EOF given by the brainf*ck system. That particular cat program would not work for a "EOF means no change to current cell" brainf*ck system.)
19:56:18 <sedimin> i just thought of keyboard shortcut that yields EOF and its value - i forgot that it's dirrefent on windows and linux
19:57:44 <fizzie> The keyboard shortcut to give EOF is very probably not what the program sees, anyway.
19:59:13 <sedimin> but i wondered why the cat program does not end on ctrl+z when using standard input, and it did when a file has been redirected into standard input
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20:41:45 <kipple> about that EOF and file handling...
20:42:17 <kipple> first off, I think 255 file handles is a lot. probably enough
20:42:36 <kipple> reading filenames off the stack is not a bad idea
20:42:43 <sedimin__> yes, but imagine an omgrofl operating system
20:42:53 <sedimin__> it would be only able to have 255 handles at run time :(
20:43:06 <kipple> why not simply make it 32bit...
20:43:52 <sedimin__> then it would be prepared for 1024-bit processors
20:43:56 <kipple> and let each implementation choose
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20:47:33 <kipple> an operator that reads a (zero-terminated) filename off the stack and opens it would be nice I think. But only if file IO (apart from STDIO) is actually wanter
20:49:32 <sedimin__> then there will be commands to read from a file?
20:50:06 <ihope> If you add that, you'll have to add pointers.
20:50:13 <sedimin__> of will we swap the STDI/O for the file handle and use stfw or rofl to read/write to/from file?
20:50:34 <ihope> 'll have to add dynamic memory allocation, which more-or-less requires pointers.
20:50:34 <kipple> you can add a second parameter to rofl and stfw
20:51:00 <kipple> or you can have a command that sets the active file
20:51:14 <ihope> Then you'll need a good way to do network connections.
20:51:42 <kipple> actually, due to the nature of the language the IRC protocol should probably be included :P
20:51:56 <sedimin__> or somebody should just code IRC library
20:52:33 <ihope> Ah, yes. Libraries.
20:52:45 <ihope> There needs to be a way to define functions, and a way to call them.
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20:55:18 <sedimin_> so, but - when we'll be able to change active file
20:55:34 <sedimin_> we still won't be able to seek in the files, just use them as streams
20:56:17 <kipple> you could of course add random access functionality, but is it really necessary?
20:56:47 <sedimin_> you may read the entire file into stack
20:57:40 <sedimin_> and to the function definitions
20:57:49 <sedimin_> i still have the "omg" keyword reserved ;)
20:58:30 <kipple> indeed. it needs an omg keyword
20:58:43 <ihope> And a bbq keyword.
20:59:16 <kipple> bbq? like in barbequeue?
20:59:47 <ihope> I guess it could mark the end of whatever omg begins.
21:00:08 <ihope> And wtf needs to be one of the things that omg and bbq can enclose.
21:01:30 <sedimin_> maybe it should be object-oriented and programmer-hostile
21:02:47 <sedimin_> hm. doesn't bbq mean also "be back quick" ? :)
21:06:54 <kipple> a couple of others: g2g, wb, IANAL, btw
21:08:46 <kipple> good list: http://www.sharpened.net/glossary/acronyms.php
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21:11:44 <ihope> I'd say IANA could be an output command, but...
21:12:21 <sedimin_> or http://www.noslang.com/dictionary/full
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21:12:48 <ihope> An example: "IANAH; IANAe; IANAl; IANAl; IANAo; IANA,; IANA ; IANAw; IANAo; IANAr; IANAl; IANAd; IANA!"
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21:30:22 <sedimin> so what about the networking and libraries in omgrofl? :)
21:30:50 <ihope> :-D can be import.
21:31:04 <ihope> Except that I wanted emoticons to be comments.
21:32:01 <sedimin> wherever in the code like lol :) iz 3
21:39:54 <lament> IANA should obviously only allow capital letters
21:40:23 <lament> IANAH; IANAE; IANAL; IANAL; IANAO
21:41:02 <ihope> I am not a large humanoid; I am not an elemental; I am not a lich; I am not a lich; I am not an ogre?
21:41:09 <lament> perhaps it could even allow several at a time
21:42:09 <ihope> But we already have an output command, don't we?
21:43:15 <lament> i am not a happy elephant; i am not a lawyer; i am not a little orange.
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02:07:34 <SimonRC> GregorR: EGOBOT'S CRASHED AGAIN!
02:07:55 <SimonRC> ihope: don't know anthign about nfs, do you?
02:08:38 <SimonRC> or in this case nyetwork filesystem :-)
02:09:05 <Arrogant> The first page on Google didn't actually say what an NFS was
02:16:37 <Arrogant> Anyone have any new languages in mind or in the works?
02:18:03 <ihope> What's the C operation to dereference a pointer?
02:21:17 * ihope stabs Arrogant with Pointy
02:25:00 <ihope> And it's bedtime already...
02:25:10 <ihope> I'll post the spec tomorrow.
02:26:47 <Arrogant> There aren't any function pointers in Rack so I'm going to write up a new spec that covers that.
02:31:16 <Arrogant> I don't know how neccessary it is
02:31:21 <Arrogant> I should write some stuff first
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08:25:26 <sedimin> is there any language that works according to the weather?
08:26:43 <sedimin> I have such idea, that in the source, you will only write number of days (for example, 0 3 2 1 4) and it will do instructions that match the forecasted weather of today, 3 days from now, 2 days from now etc
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08:43:48 <sedimin__> but the programs will work only in one day:P
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17:59:25 <GregorR-W> (Unless your monitor is sideways or something)
17:59:36 <kipple> hmm. wazzup? could be an OMGROFL command I guess ;)
18:00:04 <sedimin> actually, i used my monitor rotated yesterday :)
18:00:41 <sedimin> what will the 'wazzup' command do in omgrofl?
18:00:59 <sedimin> it should do something with checking
18:01:14 <sedimin> but we do have wtf command
18:06:28 <sedimin> when do you ask wazzup in real life?
18:07:24 <sedimin> so, when programmer feels like an idiot, he may ask the program what's up
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18:36:45 <wildhalcyon> my wife's graduation is being shown on an online telecast, so I've been watching that
18:37:29 <wildhalcyon> For sedmin's future reference, there IS a programming language that changes daily.
18:38:09 <wildhalcyon> Same folks who brought us Java2K, which is 50% more reliable than Java
20:51:45 <wildhalcyon> has anyone figured out the solution to that PROLAN/M summation problem? :-( Its killin' me!
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23:49:07 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
23:49:09 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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03:07:39 <SimonRC> OMFG this would be *soooo* cool if it wasn't for the lack of long-term implant durability: http://science.slashdot.org/science/06/06/09/2035206.shtml
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12:14:24 <Keymaker> wildhalcyon: i'll try to program one
12:14:48 <Keymaker> wildhalcyon: can't promise i succeed, ;P
12:42:46 <Keymaker> if only one wouldn't need to store the input values.. grrrh
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14:45:49 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
14:45:51 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
14:46:03 <ihope> Not much is new, eh?
14:46:28 <ihope> !axo (H*<Of"Hello, world!">.,Ik{38})
16:12:04 <ihope> So Prolog doesn't have monads...
16:12:53 * ihope wonders how Prolog would handle monads
16:16:21 <ihope> bind(just X, Y, Y(X))
16:16:29 <ihope> bind(nothing, Y, nothing)
16:16:33 <ihope> Something like that?
16:30:53 <ihope> Or maybe this: bind(just X, Y, Z) :- Y(X,Z)
16:31:11 * ihope wonders if Prolog can handle things like that
16:32:21 <jix> wtf?! i just started a prolog program and someone here starts to talk about prolog
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17:16:29 <ihope> So, in that one part in "Steppin' Out", is every note played twice, or does it just sound like it?
17:16:44 <ihope> And if it just sounds like it, is that due to the little bell that plays?
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17:48:06 * ihope decides that it's one "note" that can be heard only on the "on" and the "off"
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18:28:34 <sedimin_> hell, why do I always write "idenfity" instead of "identify"? :)
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18:35:59 <sedimin_> every time I connect to the IRC
18:36:22 <wildhalcyon> you didn't get those magnetic implants, did you?
18:37:46 <wildhalcyon> magnetic, not magic. No, I'm afraid I don't
18:40:22 <wildhalcyon> so I was browsing wikipedia looking for untapped esolang potential last night.
18:40:50 <wildhalcyon> I came upon Lindenmayer systems (l-systems). They seemed interesting, then I realized that they were EXACTLY THE FREAKIN' SAME AS THUE SYSTEMS!
18:41:21 <wildhalcyon> yup. Both deal with string replacement using left/right-side rules
18:42:02 <wildhalcyon> Well, L-systems are more broad than just the string replacement in Thue.
18:42:24 <wildhalcyon> They can be stochastic, include variables of sorts, and have context sensativity
18:43:20 <wildhalcyon> I realize Thue allows some randomization, but its limited
18:49:18 <sedimin_> i never could understand the Thue completely
18:50:06 <wildhalcyon> I tried a bit of programming in it. Its a difficult system to implement an algorithm in.
18:50:53 <sedimin_> but maybe less difficult than in Malbolge, right?
18:50:56 <wildhalcyon> Some things are easy. I made a very simple program that could match a string regular expressions could not.
18:51:04 <wildhalcyon> Probably less difficult than malbolge, yes.
18:51:25 <sedimin_> what exactly did your program?
18:51:34 <sedimin_> what kind of string could it match?
18:52:14 <wildhalcyon> a string of a's,b's, and c's (in that order), where the number of a's, b's, and c's were the same.
18:53:09 <sedimin_> but were the a's, b's and c's hardcoded into program?
18:55:58 <wildhalcyon> sorry, that last line should be []::=~VALID
18:56:11 <sedimin_> and the input was also hardcoded?
18:58:06 <sedimin_> so the last line was the "initial state" like "aabbcc" ?
18:59:29 <wildhalcyon> right, except that it had to be enclosed in curly braces {}
19:01:55 <wildhalcyon> Otherwise, a valid string would simply eat up everything, turn to nothing, and the program would exit.
19:02:15 <sedimin_> and you can't determine if string is null?
19:02:35 <sedimin_> or nothing? couldn't something like ::=~VALID?
19:03:13 <wildhalcyon> not that I'm aware of. I could be wrong though
19:03:36 <sedimin_> there is written: Execution consists of picking, from the list of rules, an arbitrary rule whose original string exists as a substring somewhere in the program state, and replacing that substring by the rule's replacement string.
19:03:51 <sedimin_> and I think that empty string is substring of each string
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19:05:24 <sedimin_> but if empty string was in every string and Thue will act like that, then it will output VALID to each string, so your { } is right
19:05:55 <wildhalcyon> My way is SURE to work, while the other way... might not.
19:08:56 <sedimin_> do you use the python interpreter?
19:12:33 <sedimin_> is there way to output current program state?
19:13:21 <wildhalcyon> I just got started with this at like 1am last night
19:16:00 <sedimin_> because without that, i find debugging quite hard
19:16:31 <sedimin_> but i'm sure the interpreter offers something like interactive mode or it could be hacked to output the program state after applying each rule
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19:31:46 <sedimin_> i found that when the interpreteris invoked with option -d
19:32:15 <sedimin_> and prints the data after each transformation
19:36:08 <sedimin_> I understand the program except for one thing
19:36:42 <sedimin_> it does this: it transforms each 'good' aaabbbccc or aaaabbbbcccc string into aabbcc
19:36:56 <sedimin_> then, following rule 1, into ababcc
19:37:32 <wildhalcyon> After my success, I tried another algorithm...
19:39:27 <wildhalcyon> this time, I wanted to take a balanced ternary number of the form {+0-} (or similar) and output 1111 or -1-1-1-1.. where the number of 1's or -1's was the magnitude of the number
19:39:57 <wildhalcyon> It didn't work so well. I was having trouble multiplying by 3 for some reason. :-(
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20:53:43 <sedimin_> I am preparing release of my app...
20:54:18 <sedimin_> I made some changes to the version at home, forgot to check it in the CVS, then made some other changes at my girlfriend's and then put it in CVS
20:54:31 <sedimin_> now I have to merge the changes together....
20:54:43 <GregorR> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Same change you did there
20:54:47 <GregorR> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Change repeated
20:55:56 <sedimin_> it is funny watching like apps like to grow, but don't like to shrink :)
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20:58:06 <sedimin_> do you know any woman programmer?
20:58:35 <kipple> there is one where I work
20:58:46 <kipple> and there were of course several at the uni
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20:59:39 <kipple> MUHAHA. now we can say whatever we want without big brother watching us :D
21:01:30 <GregorR> Did you forget we have two big brothers here?
21:01:49 <kipple> good thing I didn't say anything compromising then...
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21:28:16 <Keymaker> but anyways, that prolan/m problem interests me too..
21:28:34 <Keymaker> i declared earlier today on this channel (if you've seen logs) that i try to program it
21:28:34 <SimonRC> :-o "Q13. 42 : Cousin :: 6 : ?"
21:29:00 <Keymaker> however, it's very difficult!!
21:29:01 <wildhalcyon> I thought I had a way to do it, but I'm not sure.
21:29:20 <Keymaker> i'm sure there are different ways :)
21:29:32 <Keymaker> btw, for how old was that competition?
21:29:35 <wildhalcyon> I think that's what they implied by encouraging participants to submit two versions
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21:32:25 <wildhalcyon> I'm having trouble performing place-value operations. I know its possible, but I don't have the mad string-replacement skills to do it in
21:33:08 <Keymaker> what annoys me most is tha the user has to keep the input values in memory one way or another..
21:33:22 * SimonRC isn't sure what the answer is.
21:33:40 <SimonRC> http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/smartest.html
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21:34:28 <SimonRC> hmm, his client didn;t like that URL
21:34:49 <Keymaker> anyways. it'd be nice to see a working solution one day :)
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21:58:49 <Keymaker> will there ever be new Essies?
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22:05:07 <ihope> Who runs the Essies?
22:05:27 <Keymaker> perhaps we might have something other fun esolang competition
22:06:06 <GregorR> Anonymous-peer-judged esolang-writing contest.
22:06:53 <Keymaker> hm, i'd like to see more clever programs instead of always new languages
22:09:23 <Keymaker> sure new langs are nice, but it's sometimes annoying when writing any programs is left as exercise for the reader :P
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22:13:43 <Keymaker> tell me, is any irc channel really worth one's time? :)
22:14:30 <ihope> Is esoteric programming really worth one's time
22:15:07 <Keymaker> i just meant that nothing happens on this channel :D
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22:19:32 <SimonRC> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4633452260 -- lolol @ at "added information"
22:19:36 * SimonRC tries not to laugh too much at the messages to Bob.
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00:04:25 <Keymaker> ihope: interesting new lang. gotta try to inspect it more once there's an interpreter
00:04:41 <ihope> That'd be easy enough to write.
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00:11:21 <GregorR> The whole idea of having a peer-judged new lang contest would be that the winner would actually be new and original ...
00:17:05 <Keymaker> wildhalcyon: yae, i was referring to pointy.
00:17:16 <Keymaker> although smatiny is one of my favourites these days ;)
00:18:28 <ihope> I've never done anything with it, but still...
00:19:22 <Keymaker> (never done anything in it either :D)
00:20:05 <ihope> One very useless BackFlip construction: a field surrounded by arrows pointing inward.
00:20:49 <ihope> You can go in, but then the only way out is back the way you came.
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03:45:41 <wildhalcyon> damn it. I'm trying to come up with a good idea for a theoretical esolang creation competition.
03:47:29 <GregorR> I think the main thing is making the judgment fair.
03:48:04 <GregorR> I'd say all of the contestants are also judges, and vote for three entries (one of which will probalby be their own).
03:51:48 <GregorR> The effect is the same *shrugs*
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05:34:19 <wildhalcyon> Suppose, instead of the traditional bf turing machine, you have a different one.
05:35:08 <wildhalcyon> Instead of marking cells, your instructions involve grouping them together, and pulling them apart
05:37:21 <wildhalcyon> So you have >, <, + (join), - (pop one off the current clump), and ~ to swap the cell with the next one in line.
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05:39:15 <wildhalcyon> I think I'll name it KTM for Katamari Turing Machine.
05:39:29 <wildhalcyon> Although I'm not sure if its Turing-Complete or not
05:39:42 <GregorR> (Nobody talk, eventually he'll just shut up ;) )
05:39:57 <wildhalcyon> lol, Gregor, Im afraid that's where you're wrong
05:40:20 <wildhalcyon> although I just whipped out my notepad clone to write up a spec ;-) That probably would have shut me up for a couple minutes
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05:53:54 <wildhalcyon> I don't think it is, because it essentially "removes" cells to increment the current cell.
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11:44:42 <sedimin> somebody was talking about esolang competition?
11:47:21 <sedimin> I saw something in yesterday's log, but did anything emerge from it?
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12:02:04 <kipple> how about having an annual award (in several categories) where all that has been done that year can be nominated
12:07:41 <kipple> hopefully we could usurp the Essies name
12:08:25 <kipple> the problem with the contests that have been in the past is that they are so time limited. most interesting stuff gets made outside of those time limits
12:09:54 <sedimin> why not limit it to entire year?
12:10:09 <sedimin> for example, the 2006 contest will end on 31.12.2006
12:10:20 <sedimin> and in january, the decision will be made
12:11:09 <kipple> in january there is a limited time when people can nominate entries. When the nominations are over, everybody gets to vote
12:11:33 <sedimin> so maybe in february, there'll be results
12:20:44 <sedimin> hm. there should be some music-generating language. I just like chip-tunes
12:21:05 <sedimin> there should be no console output, just the sound
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12:57:32 <Keymaker> hmm, yes, gregorr's idea of everyone being judges in the comp sounds good
12:58:06 <Keymaker> but personally i'd rather have some more limited competition time, that's for example a month or two
13:00:52 <Keymaker> personally i'd limit it to one esolang per person. otherwise people just whip up languages like maniacs and don't plan them that well or program in them that much as they would if they are only limited to one. or at least that's what i think
13:01:11 <Keymaker> but either the way, i really would like to see something!
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14:00:26 <SimonRC> cool optical illusion --> http://www.johnsadowski.com/big_spanish_castle.html
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14:23:06 <ihope_> So... no staff members on?
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15:52:10 <SimonRC> ihope_: why would there be?
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18:00:10 <sedimin_> ...again idenfity instead of identify :/
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18:20:09 <sedimin_> nice one :: http://dubwise.ic.cz/pix/ms_zacina.jpg
18:22:36 <sedimin_> my GF must be happy that I don't like football ;)
18:43:28 * SimonRC wonders what she is *actually* holding (as opposed to what is being suggested).
18:44:45 <kipple> huh? any reason to believe those two are not the same?
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19:40:27 <SimonRC> # Ooh, mah name is, # # Ooh mah name is, # # Ooh, mah name is, # # `/bin/hostname` # -- _My name is `/bin/hostname`_, by slim.shady.com
19:41:49 * SimonRC hopes everyone at least *gets* the joke.
19:43:24 <SimonRC> b(C):-b(succ(C)) -- Smiley speaking PROLOG (to go with the perl, COBOL, LISP, etc smileys)
19:43:37 <kipple> hmm. the world really needs an esolang based on rap ;)
19:44:30 <SimonRC> perl: :-@n8P@8p7*@*@BP{B)(98'[`2&^58}]7b9[] COBOL: COLON SUBTRACT OPENING PARENTHESIS
19:47:34 <GregorR> Woah, that castle illusion is amazing 8-X
19:47:40 <GregorR> It's in perfect, brilliant color ...
19:48:37 <SimonRC> It's an effect of certain color receptors becoming tierd, and your brain overintepreting the resulting coloured blobs.
19:50:15 <wildhalcyon> Its actually the best one of those illusions that I've seen. I think it has to do with the way the color arranged in the picture.
19:50:37 <SimonRC> TV (in Britain) transmits hue, intensity, and brighness is its 3 channels IIRC. The horizontal resolution of the color is much less than that of the brightness, but you don't notice it unless you look for it, buy the same principle as the second cause of the castle effect.
19:51:00 <SimonRC> you brain assumes that the brighness boundaries correspond to the same set of objects as the color boundaries.
19:51:26 <SimonRC> have any of you seen the evil smiley?
19:51:54 <SimonRC> "Why is it evil?", I hear you ask.
19:52:19 <SimonRC> well if you pick a file, say foo.txt, the you execute the command
19:52:36 <SimonRC> foo.txt will be turned into an empty file!
19:53:30 <SimonRC> : is the null command in bash
19:53:49 <ihope_> Null command? You mean cat or the no-input-no-output program?
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20:00:49 <ihope_> What's the "numeric" value of EOF, generally?
20:01:06 <kipple> I don't think there is such a thing
20:01:41 <ihope_> But this language doesn't have a -1.
20:01:56 <ihope_> Ah well. I'll have this cat program just ignore EOF, then.
20:03:23 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:05:41 <kipple> well, then it is the end of a string, not a file, so it's not EOF
20:06:16 <ihope_> 0 for EOF would be convenient, as this language is more-or-less a souped-up Minsky machine.
20:06:37 <kipple> the pointy article doesn't say anything about the width of the memory cells. are you saying they can't be negative?
20:06:50 <ihope_> They can be any non-negative number.
20:07:36 <kipple> does the INP function read a byte, or a larger number?
20:08:14 <ihope_> Well, just how values are input and output isn't defined.
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20:09:17 <kipple> if its returns a byte you could for instance define 256 as EOF
20:09:32 <sedimin_> in windows it works with 255 (-1)
20:10:01 <ihope_> Unless you're talking bytes here.
20:10:20 <kipple> well, there is no -1 in Pointy anyway
20:10:58 <kipple> yes, but that should not be EOF, because the input might contain 255
20:11:04 <ihope_> But Pointy memory doesn't hold bytes.
20:11:36 <ihope_> I'm just saying that there's no especially good way to store negative values in Pointy memory.
20:11:40 <sedimin_> i was solving exactly this problem few days ago with omgrofl
20:12:13 <ihope_> You can say that an even number x represents x/2 and that an odd number y represents -(y+1)/2, but that's a bit "weird".
20:12:29 <kipple> EOF should be a number that INP will never return, except when the file is ended. If there is no such number you're out of luck ;)
20:12:32 <sedimin_> when the input of cat program was redirected from file, it worked - it terminated on the end of file
20:12:39 <ihope_> There, your number line would be 9, 7, 5, 3, 1, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8...
20:12:58 <sedimin_> but when I input came from keyboard, and I tried to terminate output with ctrl+z, it did nothing
20:13:23 <ihope_> Now, a nice way to do things is to have 0 represent EOF, then increment every actual character that goes in.
20:13:52 <ihope_> Some guys who have ASCII memorized would probably get annoyed, but who cares about them? :-P
20:14:17 <kipple> so immediately after you INP, you should always DEC. Then you automatically get a jump too on EOF
20:14:26 <wildhalcyon> If we're talking esolangs, if someone DOES have the ascii table memorized you SHOULD annoy them.
20:14:57 <kipple> the ASCII table is irrelevant anyway when you're dealing with binary data
20:15:15 <ihope_> An alternative to all this is just to let INP do a jump as well.
20:15:35 <kipple> that is also a very good idea
20:16:06 <kipple> now you're thinking outside the box :)
20:17:44 <ihope_> If memory cells are bounded, you can even have INC do a "failure jump".
20:18:28 -!- sedimin_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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20:24:10 <sedimin_> hm. is it Hello, world! or Hello, World?
20:24:40 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:24:47 <kipple> but does it really matter....?
20:25:07 <GregorR> The original was "HELLO WORLD"
20:25:13 <GregorR> But usually it's "Hello, world!" now.
20:27:06 <kipple> according to the 'pedia the original was "hello, world"
20:33:32 <sedimin_> btw - ihope - there can't be comments in Pointy?
20:33:46 <sedimin_> yes, i happen to like the blockiness :)
20:34:03 <ihope_> sedimin_: semicolons make nice comment markers, not that I myself like them :-P
20:34:35 <sedimin_> ihope: but you did not mention it, did you?
20:34:42 <ihope_> wildhalcyon: by Courier, do you mean Courier, or Courier New?
20:35:11 <ihope_> sedimin_: well, I did use a comment or two in those example programs, didn't I?
20:37:18 <wildhalcyon> Although to be honest, Im not entirely sure what the differences are.
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20:41:29 <wildhalcyon> I like this one: http://home.student.uu.se/j/jowi4905/fonts/
20:41:50 <kipple> stay tuned for the exciting conlusion to this typographical thriller
20:43:02 <kipple> wildhalcyon: that one looks nice!
20:43:27 <wildhalcyon> Its pretty easy to read too, which is handy for esolangs
20:44:02 <kipple> unfortunately it has lousy support for international characters.. :(
20:45:04 <kipple> hah, "easy to read" and esolangs doesn't belong in the same sentence
20:45:06 <SimonRC> I want a fixed-width font that has a tiny pixel box, and does every charachter in the BMP.
20:45:07 <sedimin_> and so it happens, that I can't find original Courier font on my PC :)
20:45:22 <SimonRC> Except for the chinese ones
20:45:37 <sedimin_> I know it is somewhere in my win3.1 install somewhere
20:45:47 <SimonRC> BTW, Chinese chars are usually double-width.
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20:46:08 <SimonRC> which a good terminal program can handle
20:46:15 <sedimin_> http://www.fonts.com/images/products/closeup/012277OPN.gif
20:46:27 <SimonRC> and w3m can cope with double-with chars
20:46:28 <fizzie> I use DejaVu Sans Mono for my fixed-width needs.
20:47:08 <ihope_> So why does Chinese have so many characters?
20:47:19 <SimonRC> because they use logographs
20:47:35 * SimonRC hunts for the really good explanition he found
20:47:58 <sedimin_> there are many chinese people, so many characters
20:48:25 <wildhalcyon> Nice enough for me to download at least :-D
20:48:26 <SimonRC> here is a really good expn: http://www.zompist.com/yingzi/yingzi.htm
20:48:57 <sedimin_> http://rafb.net/paste/results/9O4I2V92.html
20:49:40 <kipple> hum. SV Basic Manual renders horribly in un-bold on my system :(
20:49:53 <ihope_> Hmm, the use of pointers doesn't really make it any shorter, but that's a nice demonstration of how pointers work.
20:50:10 <sedimin_> that was in my mind when writing it
20:52:34 <fizzie> DejaVu is basically the Bitstream font, but with more characters. (Doesn't have CJK, but there's really no need to have them and latin-like letters in the same font, sensible systems can pick them up from other fonts if necessary.)
20:53:26 <fizzie> If one happens to like 8x16 pixel fonts (as opposed to something that can be anti-aliased), there's that "unifont" thing, http://czyborra.com/unifont/
20:56:53 <fizzie> (Oh, and I used the bitmap font from http://openlab.jp/efont/ before I realized that this computing device renders screenfuls of anti-aliased text (even with Freetype) fast enough; but it doesn't really have very large unicode coverage.)
20:58:50 <fizzie> Admittedly about the only non-ISO-8859-1/15 letters I've used in IRC have been λ and ∈.
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21:34:20 <ihope_> ∈looks really ugly here, λ looks really nice, and everything else is sort of in-between.
21:35:10 <ihope_> I expect whoever made the ∈ thing over here didn't really put much time into it :-P
21:37:55 <fizzie> It looks rather out-of-place here too.
21:38:53 <ihope_> Say, I forgot I added a /partall command to my client.
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21:43:48 <Keymaker> i can't believe how this prolan/m task can be done
21:44:44 <Keymaker> i just can't figure out a way how to get the end result back to number form and print it out, yet avoid it starting the program again by matching the digits just like when started..
21:46:09 <Keymaker> i think i just got it while i was writing my question :D
21:49:24 <GregorR> I mean, what are we talking about?
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21:50:08 <ihope_> By the way, what am I supposed to do if I want my Thue program to handle things that have ::= in them
21:50:42 <Keymaker> you can't handle those on left side,
21:50:51 <Keymaker> but you can always convert ::= to something other
21:51:03 <ihope_> I wish my enter key weren
21:51:11 <ihope_> 't so easy to press accidentally. :-P
21:53:26 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
21:53:28 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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22:54:07 <wildhalcyon> I keep putting CRAWL off to try to devleop esolangs that are easier to write interpreters for
23:00:00 <Keymaker> i'm currently busy with this prolan/m..
23:00:35 <Keymaker> too bad i haven't had much time yet, i've been "working"
23:00:58 <Keymaker> but finally have some spare time ;)
23:01:45 <Keymaker> i'm hoping to have something done this week. unless something bizarre happens
23:03:21 <Keymaker> currently i'm writing somekind of plan of the program and techniques i'm going to use. this program probably won't be that optimized, however
23:03:41 <wildhalcyon> I wouldnt really know where to begin with optimization :-(
23:03:58 <Keymaker> heh, i'm happy just to get it working :)
23:11:17 -!- wildhalcyon_ has joined.
23:12:37 <wildhalcyon_> Its super slow and eats up enourmous resources doing just about nothing, then it freezes my browser.
23:13:08 <Keymaker> yeah, it doesn't sound too good
23:16:14 <wildhalcyon_> Wow, it appears that while my computer was freezing, I was having a conversation with myself on IRC. none of it is in the logs
23:19:02 <wildhalcyon_> my biggest issue with that problem right now is that there doesn't seem to be any way to tell when something has reached the "end" of the string on the left-hand side. So my solution always ends up with some garbage there
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23:34:00 <SimonRC> wildhalcyon_: remember, the proof that PROLAN/M is Turing-complete is a *constructive* proof.
23:35:00 <SimonRC> if a pattern didn't match last time, then it;s not going to match this time, unless the new match are overlaps the most recent modification.
23:35:10 <SimonRC> wildhalcyon_: look at the wiki
23:35:38 -!- wildhalcyon_ has changed nick to wildhalcyon.
23:36:54 <SimonRC> there is an explanation of how to prove it, referring to Thue (very similar), which can be shown to be turing-complete
23:37:23 * SimonRC types a long line outlining how to solve the problem
23:37:35 <SimonRC> oh, wait, waht's the input format and output format?
23:38:51 <Keymaker> i should perhaps quit, i don't want to see any solutions :P
23:39:28 <SimonRC> step 1: write turing machine to solve problem
23:39:40 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
23:39:44 <SimonRC> step 2: turn turing machine into set of PROLAN/M steps
23:39:51 -!- Keymaker has joined.
23:39:58 <SimonRC> step 2: turn turing machine into set of PROLAN/M steps
23:40:29 <wildhalcyon> my solution is: Step 1: Get Keymaker to do it
23:40:34 <SimonRC> actually, PROLAN/M is slightly more powerful than a TM; you can insert cells
23:40:35 <Keymaker> and my way is different, anyway ;)
23:41:40 <Keymaker> more powerful or not, it's a lot more difficult to program in than the turing tarpits i've seen
23:41:56 <SimonRC> the ? is very useful as it allows the machine to tell the difference between a solved problem and an unolved problem
23:42:32 <Keymaker> that's what i realized a few hours(?) ago just when i was going to complain about it :D
23:42:41 <Keymaker> otherwise this would be impossible
23:43:07 <SimonRC> you turn the ? into a tape head, which looks like: [asdf], where asdf is the TM state.
23:44:03 <SimonRC> then you turn each cell in the (extended) TM rule table into a transformation rule.
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01:15:17 * SimonRC goes. (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/MilliHelen)
02:11:23 <ihope_> Okay. So I'm wanting to send an email to my Spanish teacher, thanking him for the teaching, but I have no idea what to say...
02:18:29 <GregorR> ¡HOLA SEÑOR! MUCHOS GRACIAS POR LA TEACHO DE LA SPANISH! YO TIENO MUCHO SPANISH NOW!
02:21:20 <GregorR> No, I'm not just incompetent, I know that 'tengo' is the correct conjugation :P
02:30:36 <ihope_> Okay, I got the "Hola, Sr. Profesor!" down. What next?
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02:38:05 -!- ihope_ has quit ("Bedtime").
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03:28:55 <GregorR> I said "I want your babies"
03:29:32 <wildhalcyon> I knew babies, but deseo was over my head a little
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04:00:07 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
04:00:09 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
04:00:25 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
04:02:09 * GregorR wonders why that didn't work >_O
04:02:45 <GregorR> Hahaha, I renamed it without updating !help
04:02:53 <EgoBot> Befunge-93 Interpreter/Debugger v2.21
04:03:10 <GregorR> Not that it worked anyway :P
04:03:43 <EgoBot> Befunge-93 Interpreter/Debugger v2.21
04:04:16 <GregorR> You can also use !funge93 <url> by the way
04:04:53 <GregorR> It's not my interpreter :P
04:05:09 <GregorR> EgoBot is just a compilation of interpreters written by other people with an IRC bot wrapper.
04:05:35 <GregorR> bef.c - The Original Befunge-93 Interpreter/Debugger in ANSI C
04:05:35 <GregorR> v2.21 Sep 20 2004 Chris Pressey, Cat's-Eye Technologies
04:07:33 <EgoBot> Befunge-93 Interpreter/Debugger v2.21
04:16:26 -!- thematrixeatsyou has quit ("Forgot to say: i have made a more usable BF variant that uses functions.").
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05:55:15 <fizzie> Morning! (07:55 am here.)
05:58:36 * Arrogant finally learned how to write a recursive decent parser
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06:16:18 <GregorR> If you made a recursive decent parser, it's probably LL(1): That is, left-recursive, one lookahead
06:16:47 <GregorR> Now, that's good enough for almost every language there is (with the notable exception, IIRC, of C++), but not as powerful as LALR, which is what YACC uses.
06:17:01 <GregorR> Long story short, I only told you to write an LALR parser because nobody in their right mind writes one by hand :)
06:17:57 <Arrogant> If I were in my right mind, would I be here?
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14:13:24 <nooga> joo r no hir - joo r elswer
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16:08:14 -!- ihope has changed nick to gJOq78.
16:08:33 -!- gJOq78 has changed nick to ihope.
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17:05:26 <ihope> The name similarity is pure coincidence.
17:06:37 <ihope> Now, if the two bots ever get in a bot war, this'll happen:
17:31:02 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
17:31:04 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
17:31:10 <ihope> That would be #help, if there were such a command.
17:31:26 <ihope> EagleBot doesn't actually do anything yet.
17:31:47 -!- EagleBot has quit ("Yet another update").
17:31:51 <SimonRC> are you going to put any terps on it yet?
17:32:35 <ihope> Right now I'm working on making the logs look more fancy.
17:33:36 <SimonRC> I need some kind of command that allows me to make it output arbitrary text.
17:33:59 <ihope> Only I can use that right now, though :-P
17:34:03 <SimonRC> ihope: yeah, that would do
17:34:18 <SimonRC> damnit, I want to create a bot loop!
17:36:50 <ihope> Okay, ping/pong and CTCP VERSION requests now show up nicer.
17:38:09 <ihope> Okay, now anybody can use #raw. Have fun.
17:38:57 -!- EagleBot has joined.
17:39:53 <ihope> !bf_txtgen #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!botloop"
17:40:23 <EgoBot> 260 ++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>+++>++++++<<<<-]>>>-.<<++++++.>+.<+++++.>>---.++.<-----------------.++.>>+.<<++++.>>++++.++++++.------------.<--.+++.<+++++++++++++++.<----.----.+++++.>.<--.>++++.------.>---.>-------------.<+.<-.<---.+++++.--------.+++..+.>>+. [759]
17:40:46 <ihope> !daemon botloop bf ++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>+++>++++++<<<<-]>>>-.<<++++++.>+.<+++++.>>---.++.<-----------------.++.>>+.<<++++.>>++++.++++++.------------.<--.+++.<+++++++++++++++.<----.----.+++++.>.<--.>++++.------.>---.>-------------.<+.<-.<---.+++++.--------.+++..+.>>+.
17:40:49 <EgoBot> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!botloop"
17:41:23 <ihope> Um, that's supposed to do something...
17:41:44 <ihope> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh"
17:42:00 <ihope> Did I forget to reload?
17:42:21 -!- EagleBot has quit (Client Quit).
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17:43:56 <ihope> You guys do the rest. If these guys get into a loop, yell *really loudly* and I just might hear.
17:44:33 <ihope> Or send me a private message, or say my name, or something.
17:45:22 <GregorR> #raw "QUIT :We don't need two bots."
17:45:22 -!- EagleBot has quit (Client Quit).
17:48:03 <SimonRC> !sadol (4:C",224!",214#raw (4:C",224!C!C!",214#raw (4:C",224!C!C
17:48:07 <EgoBot> #raw (4:C",224!",214#raw (4:C",224!C!C!",214#raw (4:C",224!C!C
17:59:57 <ihope> Hmm, how come the quit message there was "Client Quit"?
18:00:53 <ihope> !sadol (6:C",226!",216!sadol (6:C",226!C!C!",216!sadol (6:C",226!C!C
18:00:57 <EgoBot> BDSM: Parsing: Unexpected end of file (index: 61, row: 1, col: 62)
18:01:28 <ihope> !sadol (4:C",224!",216!sadol (4:C",224!C!C!",216!sadol (4:C",224!C!C
18:01:31 <EgoBot> !",216!sadol (4:C",224!C!sadol (4:C",224!",216!sadol (4:C",224!C!",216!sadol (4:C",224!C
18:04:22 -!- EagleBot has joined.
18:04:39 <ihope> Okay. Now, somebody other than GregorR try to loop these guys :-P
18:05:43 <ihope> !sadol (4:C",224!",214#raw (4:C",224!C!C!",214#raw (4:C",224!C!C
18:05:45 <EgoBot> #raw (4:C",224!",214#raw (4:C",224!C!C!",214#raw (4:C",224!C!C
18:06:07 <ihope> That crashed EagleBot :-P
18:07:04 <SimonRC> bah, I forgot you need to stuff a privmsg in there
18:08:40 -!- EagleBot has quit (Nick collision from services.).
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18:13:02 <ihope> !daemon cat bf ,[.,]
18:13:27 <sedimin_> what will 'dog' look like in brainfuck? :)
18:13:49 <ihope> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw \"PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw \\\"PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw\\\"\""
18:13:50 <EagleBot> !cat #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw \"PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw\""
18:13:53 <EgoBot> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw""
18:15:31 <ihope> !cat 99 \\ bottles \\ of \\ beer \\ on \\ the \\ wall
18:15:35 <EgoBot> 99 \ bottles \ of \ beer \ on \ the \ wall
18:16:26 <sedimin_> take one down and pass it all around!
18:16:37 <sedimin_> !cat 98 \\ bottles \\ of \\ beer \\ on \\ the \\ wall
18:16:41 <EgoBot> 98 \ bottles \ of \ beer \ on \ the \ wall
18:16:44 <ihope> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw \\\"PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw \\\\\\\"PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw\\\\\\\"\\\""
18:16:44 <EagleBot> !cat #raw \"PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw \\\"PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw\\\"\"
18:16:47 <EgoBot> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw \"PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw\""
18:16:47 <EagleBot> !cat #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw"
18:16:49 <EgoBot> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat #raw"
18:23:58 <sedimin_> when did you first come at the 99 bottles program
18:26:02 <sedimin_> Cause almost nobody at my school knew it when I asked them, I thought it's very-well known...
18:26:02 <ihope> !cat \1ACTION foo\1
18:26:32 <ihope> !cat \SOHACTION foo\SOH
18:27:33 <ihope> Eh, enough of that.
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18:34:37 * SimonRC listens to ISIHAC on Radio 4.
18:36:14 <SimonRC> It's funny! http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy/clue.shtml
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20:05:21 <ihope> So there's this hypothetical programming language, and the only way to do an "if" is to get yourself into a superposition of all reasonable states, then prune off the ones that turn out to be wrong.
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20:26:05 <GregorR> Woah, somebody significantly improved Glass' page ...
20:28:40 <GregorR> !daemon test glass {M[m(_a)A!(_o)O!(_i)I!(_neof)(_i)e.?<0>(_a)e.?=/(_neof)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?(_neof)(_i)e.?<0>(_a)e.?=\]}
20:29:10 <EgoBot> 1 ihope: daemon cat bf
20:29:30 <ihope> What did you think it would do? :-P
21:24:40 <ihope> ...Nothing's moving!
21:25:54 <ihope> I'm sure this has happened before...
21:32:30 <kipple> according to some philosophies, everything has happened before.... (and will happen again)
21:32:53 <ihope> So the universe is reversible and finite?
21:55:50 <lament> and can be emulated by a SMETANA program
21:57:21 <ihope> You mean a SMATINY program?
22:05:23 <lament> No. a SMETANA program.
22:23:51 <ihope> Prolog functors have degrees of freedom, don't they?
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23:14:26 <ihope> Hmm, this straight-line linkage is pretty simple.
23:14:52 <ihope> Indeed, one does wonder why it took so long to create.
23:17:41 <ihope> A parallelogram on a straight line can produce another straight line. But a parallelogram on a circle can also create a straight line.
23:18:21 <ihope> You just have to keep it from rotating...
23:20:02 <ihope> That means that in addition to the radius, you need another fixed point that does this.
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00:24:05 <ihope> I just spent a longish time completely filling a Sodaplay thingy with dots and springs.
00:24:20 <ihope> So now there's one big loop.
00:24:29 <ihope> Now I'm going to turn it into many triangles.
00:26:05 <ihope> I hit "simulate" instead of "construct.
00:29:00 <GregorR> Oops, was that not quite right, or did you fix it? :P
00:29:04 -!- EagleBot has quit.
00:30:00 <ihope> I forgot the colon in front.
00:30:05 <GregorR> .#raw "PRIVMSG lilo :I WANT YOUR HOT BODY"
00:31:03 -!- EagleBot has joined.
00:31:51 <GregorR> #raw "PRIVMSG GregorR :I WANT YOUR HOT BODY"
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00:34:05 * ihope scratches his head
00:36:10 <ihope> The hardest-to-find mistakes are always the most stupid ones.
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00:37:01 <ihope> Now it works, I think.
00:38:02 <GregorR> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEXSEXSEX"
00:38:16 <ihope> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muahaha"
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00:39:52 <ihope> !cat #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boink."
00:39:54 <EgoBot> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boink."
00:40:25 <GregorR> And just noticed all the stuff you posted to Talk:Glass :P
00:41:01 <oerjan> (first time in years i'm on irc, too)
00:42:01 <GregorR> So, I actually included an example that used the * syntax? 8-X
00:42:16 <GregorR> That's outdated syntax ... I don't think I ever even published that syntax before changing it to ? :P
00:43:04 <GregorR> Yeah, methods and variables are in totally different namespaces.
00:43:19 <GregorR> I should document that ... somewhere :P
00:43:31 <oerjan> except that if a variable exists, you cannot get to the method with the same name
00:44:45 <GregorR> !glass {C[(c__) x 1 = ,][(inc) x x * <1> (_a)A! (_a)a.? =][(rx) x *][x x *]}{M[m(_c)C!(_c)x.?]}
00:45:07 <GregorR> Well, that did nothing X-P
00:45:14 <GregorR> !glass {C[(c__) x 1 = ,][(inc) x x * <1> (_a)A! (_a)a.? =][(rx) x *][x x *]}{M[m(_c)C!(_c)x.?(_o)O!"Test?"(_o)o.?]}
00:45:50 <ihope> !raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo"
00:45:53 <GregorR> Or wait, is that crashing :P
00:46:01 <GregorR> !glass {C[(c__) x 1 = ,][(inc) x x * <1> (_a)A! (_a)a.? =][(rx) x *][x x *]}{M[m?(_o)O!"Test?"(_o)o.?(_c)C!(_c)x.]}
00:46:08 <GregorR> !glass {C[(c__) x 1 = ,][(inc) x x * <1> (_a)A! (_a)a.? =][(rx) x *][x x *]}{M[m(_o)O!"Test?"(_o)o.?(_c)C!(_c)x.?]}
00:46:16 <GregorR> Yup, that'd be glass crashing :(
00:47:27 <ihope> GregorR: looks like EgoBot's !raw command's overriding my daemon.
00:47:40 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Gregor wrote borked code :("(_o)o.?]}
00:47:43 <EgoBot> Gregor wrote borked code :(
00:47:47 <GregorR> ihope: Only I can use EgoBot's !raw command.
00:48:00 <GregorR> !raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like so.
00:48:12 <ihope> !quote "PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well."
00:48:49 <ihope> Don't tell me that's taken, too.
00:49:17 <GregorR> !quote doesn't even do anything.
00:49:21 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:49:22 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:49:58 <ihope> !grr "PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this works."
00:50:11 <GregorR> What are you trying to do, ihope ?
00:50:20 <ihope> !grr #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this works."
00:50:47 <oerjan> hmm... how do you give egobot a befunge program? :-)
00:50:55 <ihope> Via a URL, I think.
00:51:09 <EgoBot> 1 ihope: daemon cat bf
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00:52:15 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:52:17 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:52:51 <ihope> I mean... did that do anything?
00:53:20 <GregorR> !befunge isn't the right command
00:53:42 <ihope> Yeah, that was just a wild guess. Why?
00:54:45 <EgoBot> Befunge-93 Interpreter/Debugger v2.21
00:55:18 <ihope> So !funge93 doesn't like one-dimensional program?
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00:57:46 <GregorR-L> Well, time to reenable resource limitations.
00:58:05 * GregorR-L is amazed by how efficiently that hammered his machine.
00:58:52 <ihope> My Befunge program did?
00:59:30 <GregorR-L> The lack of EgoBot will be your punishment.
01:00:01 <oerjan> for me, time to go to bed
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02:02:44 <ihope> My brother's playing a baseball game on his computer.
02:11:52 <ihope> Aww. This site doesn't let me use (|_|_||\/|$`/ as a password.
02:12:25 <ihope> It's one character too long!
02:34:35 <ihope> Practice safe eating - always use condiments.
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03:21:21 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
03:21:23 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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03:30:31 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
03:31:05 <GregorR> I was making sure that the resource limiting worked.
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14:52:24 <ihope_> My quit message for yesterday was "¡Adiós!". Weird, eh? ;-)
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15:10:29 <fizzie> I see it as "¡Adiós!".
15:17:21 * SimonRC wonders if "Hate is a good thing" is a sensible line for an advert.
15:18:34 <SimonRC> # Hate something? # # Change something. # # Hate something? Change something, # # Make something better ... # tec
15:19:09 <SimonRC> It's for more-efficinet desiel engines.
15:23:04 <fizzie> Misread "dental engines"; wonder how _that'd_ work.
15:56:09 <SimonRC> http://www.personal.barclays.co.uk/BRC1/jsp/brcucontrol?site=pfs&task=internal&value=http://www.fakebankingsite.com/
16:04:12 <SimonRC> look at the URL, then at its effect
16:04:54 <SimonRC> it can make any URl look like it belongs to barclays, if you are a machine looking at the URL alone
16:10:00 <SimonRC> Nnote to self: garbage collector should consider instruction pointer to be part of base set.
16:11:35 <ihope_> Was the instruction pointer garbage-collected?
16:11:55 <SimonRC> no, I mean that running code might be garbage-collected
16:12:03 <SimonRC> and it didn't actually happen
16:12:40 <SimonRC> Are there any langs around that have functions but those functions can't return?
16:12:58 <ihope_> You mean you'd be stuck in the functions?
16:13:47 <SimonRC> not if you made a tail-call...
16:14:14 <SimonRC> if calling a function is either the last thing done or the function will v
16:14:23 <SimonRC> never return, you can tail-call
16:14:40 <SimonRC> but evrything would have to be written in CPS, which is ugly :-)
16:15:09 <ihope_> Instead of "do foo, call bar, do baz", you "do foo, call bar(baz)", and bar does baz.
16:17:14 <SimonRC> ah, but that means that foo has to return
16:17:29 <SimonRC> so it becomes foo(bar(baz))
16:17:41 <SimonRC> and you may want a load of lambdas in there to re-arrange arguments
16:18:27 <ihope_> Well, foo might not be a function.
16:18:31 <ihope_> Then again, maybe it is.
16:20:44 <ihope_> s x y z c = c ((x z) y z); k x y c = c x; i x c = c x
16:20:54 <ihope_> Then you build everything with s, k, and i.
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16:25:38 <ihope_> So we have (t -> t1 -> t -> r) -> t1 -> t -> Cont r a, a -> t -> Cont r a, and a -> Cont r a.
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16:33:36 <ihope_> Oh, that should be (t -> t1 -> t -> a) -> t1 -> t -> Cont r a up there.
16:47:24 <SimonRC> let us think of a literal as a function that takes no arguments and reutnrs a value, like in haskel
16:48:09 <SimonRC> now, er can't return values, but must use CPS, so a constant is represented by a function that calls its argument with a constant value
16:49:24 <SimonRC> so, we might add one and two and pass the result on by:
16:50:41 <SimonRC> 1(\x->2(\y->(\k-> +(x,y,k))))
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18:57:54 <calamari> not too much.. trying to get dns working in a chroot jail, so I thought I'd ask in ##linux
19:02:18 <wildhalcyon> hmmm, I didnt understand any of that so I'll just say "good luck!"
19:04:08 <ihope_> 1(\x->2(\y->(\k-> +(x,y,k)))) doesn't make any sense. :-P
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19:55:51 <ihope_> And it startled me... grr.
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20:13:45 <ihope_> Well, I wasn't using it as a word of surprise.
20:14:14 <ihope_> It was the "I'm asleep; don't wake me up" kind of "eh".
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22:16:19 <ihope_> I sold a hammer to some guy and now he's asking about 100 times what I paid for it.
22:16:25 <ihope_> Maybe 200 times; I don't know.
22:16:47 <ihope_> s/I paid/he paid/, and he paid a fair bit.
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22:24:32 <ihope_> Hey, it's not just any hammer.
22:32:02 <lament> The Sacred Hammer Of Jesus
22:33:02 <ihope_> Did Jesus have a sacred hammer?
22:34:02 <GregorR-W> Well, he was a carpenter, and a lot of people would probably consider just about anything he ever touched sacred.
22:35:09 <GregorR-W> How can anyone in the western hemisphere not know that.
22:35:55 <ihope_> I take it I'm in the western hemisphere...
22:37:17 <fizzie> http://www.kencollins.com/jesus-35.htm
22:37:24 <fizzie> "People commonly think that Jesus was a carpenter, but there is actually no evidence for that."
22:38:06 <GregorR-W> That moron is looking in the gospels.
22:38:11 <GregorR-W> It's HISTORICALLY proven that he was a carpenter.
22:40:21 <ihope_> Indeed: "In the gospels, Jesus has disciples. Carpenters don’t have disciples."
22:40:38 <fizzie> "This is still a widely debated topic(25), however Geza Vermes(26) highlights an Aramaic use of the term carpenter/craftsman (naggar) to metaphorically describe a 'scholar' or 'learned man'."
22:41:01 <GregorR-W> Your quotations aren't even from that page, where are you getting them from >_<
22:41:59 <ihope_> "In the gospels, Jesus has disciples. Carpenters don’t have disciples"
22:42:05 <fizzie> 25. cf. Vincent Taylor, Mark, p.299f versus Cranfield, Mark, p.194f; 26. Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew, p.21. Cf. D.Flusser, Jesus, Herder & Herder, New York, 1969, p.20; yYeb.9b; yKid.66a, bAZ 50b..
22:42:20 <fizzie> They are from: another page.
22:42:53 <fizzie> With a bit less "the bible says so"-y approach.
22:43:27 <GregorR-W> And then, Gregor went back to work :P
22:43:31 <fizzie> (Managed to crash my Firefox.)
22:44:10 <fizzie> (Must've been all that piety; isn't Firefox written by those heathen communist open-source people?)
22:48:37 <GregorR-W> You forgot to make 'atheist' explicit.
22:48:42 <GregorR-W> I mean, of course, it's implied by 'communist'
22:48:47 <GregorR-W> But it's important to make it explicit.
22:49:28 <fizzie> Hmm; perhaps the 'heathen' is then superfluous and could be replaced with 'atheist'.
22:53:53 <fizzie> Interesting: WordNet defines the noun 'heathen' as "a person who does not acknowledge your God", but the adjective 'heathen' as "not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam".
22:54:34 <ihope_> What about just "heath"?
22:56:19 <GregorR-W> Didn't heathen used to mean Norse specifically?
22:57:21 <fizzie> 1. heath -- (a low evergreen shrub of the family Ericaceae; has small bell-shaped pink or purple flowers)
22:57:25 <fizzie> 2. heath, heathland -- (a tract of level wasteland; uncultivated land with sandy soil and scrubby vegetation)
22:57:46 <ihope_> It doesn't even mention candy!
22:58:33 <GregorR-W> Plus, brand names usu aren't in the dictionary.
22:58:40 <GregorR-W> In fact, that's a quick way to lose a trademark in some countries.
22:59:05 <fizzie> There are some wordified brand names here.
22:59:08 <fizzie> 2. Xerox, xerographic copier, Xerox machine -- (duplicator that copies graphic matter by the action of light on an electrically charged photoconductive insulating surface in which the latent image is developed with a resinous powder)
23:00:04 <GregorR-W> Yeah, brand names which have generified into general usage are usually in, but they're hardly brand names then (if somebody says they're going to go Xerox something, they're probably going over to their HP faxer-copier ;) )
23:00:27 <fizzie> Oh, my locally installed WordNet is some ages-old version. From the new one:
23:00:29 <fizzie> * S: (n) Google (a widely used search engine that uses text-matching techniques to find web pages that are important and relevant to a user's search)
23:00:35 <fizzie> * S: (v) google (search the internet (for information) using the Google search engine) "He googled the woman he had met at the party"; "My children are googling all day"
23:01:47 <fizzie> (Time to sleep; 01am here, and should be at work before 09am "tomorrow" for a meeting-thing.)
23:04:16 <GregorR-W> !EgoBot responds to everything that starts with an '!', isn't that dumb?
23:05:13 <lament> !Do you know anything other than "Huh?"
23:05:19 <ihope_> !daemon lament bf +[,[-]+]
23:05:26 <EgoBot> 1 ihope_: daemon lament bf
23:05:34 <lament> !Oh magic eightball, does she love me?
23:06:26 <GregorR-W> If you don't undaemon it, !lament will still send output to whatever proc 1 is at the time :P
23:08:20 <ihope_> !daemon undaemon bf +[Of course, the "real" !undaemon probably [-]+] takes precedence over this one.
23:08:55 <ihope_> !daemon lament bf +[,[-]+]
23:09:10 <ihope_> !lament This program does very little.
23:09:24 <ihope_> !lament It takes input, then discards it.
23:09:44 <lament> !daemon lament bf +[,..+]
23:09:52 <lament> !lament I hate you all
23:09:56 <EgoBot> II hhaattee yyoouu aallll
23:11:14 <ihope_> Stop being confusing, GregorR.
23:11:38 <EgoBot> 1 lament: daemon lament bf
23:11:40 <EgoBot> 2 GregorR-W: daemon cat bf
23:11:48 <lament> !daemon daemon bf +[,[-]]
23:11:54 <ihope_> undaemon's still running?
23:12:03 <GregorR-W> Only because ps ran at the same time.
23:12:10 <lament> !daemon daemon daemon daemon
23:19:10 <ihope_> But I won't do the 14 spam thingy. That'd be mean :-P
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00:33:44 <ihope_> That doesn't actually do anything, but don't do it.
00:34:51 <ihope_> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :\a"
00:35:01 <ihope_> That does something similar.
00:35:34 <ihope_> But, oddly enough, that didn't actually send a message.
00:35:45 <ihope_> #raw "PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foob\ar"
00:36:40 <GregorR-W> #raw "QUIT :Permissions working yet?"
00:37:14 <ihope_> I oughta add a #help command.
00:39:42 <GregorR-W> If you persue the files repository, you'll find that I've updated egobot :)
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00:43:05 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:43:07 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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00:44:14 <ihope_> Now there's a #help command.
00:44:32 <ihope_> You can't #help raw or #help help or anything, but still, there's a #help command.
00:44:52 <EagleBot> #raw "foo": does the IRC command foo if your nick doesn't start with 'G'.
00:45:55 <ihope_> Quite the security hole, eh?
00:46:59 <ihope_> By the way, you should see this guy's source code. It's really ugly.
00:47:10 <GregorR-W> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_s)S!<34>(_s)(ns).?"#raw "(_o)o.?0(_o)o.?"QUIT"(_o)o.?0(_o)o.?]}
00:47:13 -!- EagleBot has quit (Client Quit).
00:47:30 <GregorR-W> So, what's the purpose of EagleBot? :P
00:47:33 <ihope_> Of course, you could just change your nick...
00:47:51 <ihope_> Now, purpose... hmm, that's a good one.
00:47:52 <GregorR-W> Writing a glass program to do it is easier.
00:50:20 <ihope_> And here's the ugly source code: http://pastebin.com/707629
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02:20:52 <ihope_> Yeah, it's about bedtime for me, too.
02:21:44 <ihope_> See if you guys can combine EagleBot and EgoBot into a composite chatbot that's better than the sum of the parts, or something.
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02:27:53 <GregorR> EgoBot alone is better than sum of EgoBot+EagleBot :P
02:31:08 <Arrogant> What about GregorR? He's a pretty smart bot.
02:49:55 <GregorR> Damn, and here I thought I was passing the turing test :'(
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04:26:57 <ihope> You know how Wikipedia has one of those slogan thingies?
04:27:16 <ihope> You know: it's not just Wikipedia; it's Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia.
04:27:49 <ihope> Esolang needs one of those, and yes, it IS mandatory.
04:28:25 <ihope> Unless you want us to be Esolang: the Free Encyclopedia.
04:29:50 <ihope> Now, the reason it needs one is the "Cologne Blue" skin.
04:30:13 <ihope> Right now, under the heading "Esolang", it says "The Free Encyclopedia", just like Wikipedia probably would.
04:32:27 <ihope> And it's been changed.
04:33:05 <ihope> Now, I ask y'all: what's the point of http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Pubmedurl?
04:35:48 <ihope> Then there's always "This Space for Rent", if "Weirder than You" is shot down, because then everybody will know we're in need of a slogan :-P
04:37:59 <ihope> Well, it's way past time to go to bed.
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06:15:42 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
06:15:44 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
06:16:06 <GregorR> Yeah, but it's more fun to:
06:16:14 <EgoBot> Befunge-93 Interpreter/Debugger v2.21
06:16:21 <GregorR> Forgot about its tagline :P
06:16:33 <GregorR> That's it, I'm fixing that here and now :P
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06:17:56 <fizzie> <@_,#! #:<"hello, hello."*520
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06:21:07 <sedimin_> that tells the irc bot that a command will follow
06:26:05 <fizzie> ! is logical not, to flip the directions the _-if directs to.
06:26:20 <fizzie> EgoBot; wasn't talking to you.
06:27:11 <fizzie> Without the ! it'll stop at the first non-zero character.
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06:41:04 <EgoBot> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
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06:42:12 <fizzie> Based on the name (...93) I would guess that ";" shouldn't work: it's not a command in befunge93. (It is in funge98, no idea about the intervening versions.)
06:48:00 <fizzie> At least the one-shot string mode (') is not a befunge93 command either.
06:49:21 <fizzie> For an infinite loop something like >_#"052*'o'l'l'e'h>:#,_#"< would probably be better, since it empties the stack; otherwise the "..." part would keep pushing trash on the stack.
06:49:35 <fizzie> (But that needs the ' command.)
06:51:35 <fizzie> Although if you don't mind wrapping, it's much easier just to do something like
06:51:37 <fizzie> !funge93 0" olleh">:#,_
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06:54:48 <GregorR> OK, now it has time limits :P
07:02:15 <GregorR> No, you can't reload it, only I can.
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12:20:07 * SimonRC thinks that [[PubMedURL]] is Googlebait.
12:24:13 <SimonRC> is it possible to get round a URL block by getting yourself a username?
12:27:00 <SimonRC> is it possible to get round an IP block by getting yourself a username?
12:42:22 <SimonRC> I'm just worrying that we may looses some fans who aren't prepared to wait until 2030 for their blocks to expire
12:42:41 <SimonRC> sedimin: on the esolang wiki
12:43:03 <sedimin> I don't know how does mediawiki IP block work
12:43:27 <sedimin> but if it blocks somebody's IP, it probably won't allow him/her to create an account
12:43:58 <sedimin> but, if that somebody gets another IP, he may get username, and then try to connect from blocked IP, it won't let him either
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12:45:46 <sedimin> grr.. i hate when something wants me to restart computer
12:55:16 <SimonRC> Some people say that the Pope is the greatest cardinal. But that can't be true, because every Pope has a successor.
13:02:32 * SimonRC finds out the definition of "not for long": "(1 furlong) / (1 knot) = 6.51732181 minutes" :-D
13:05:40 * ihope wonders why he had a terminal window open with "copy con con"
13:07:02 <sedimin> recommend me some good music.. :)
13:08:49 <ihope> Good music? Just plain old music?
13:56:33 <sedimin> just something good for listening
14:08:44 <EgoBot> sablevm: cannot create vm
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15:01:10 <ihope_> So over in #nethack, there's a nice big argument over whether it's "artifact" or "artefact".
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16:18:09 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
16:18:11 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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17:25:58 <sedimin> the ML is older than me, hehe
17:27:36 <nooga> hehe, 'cause i just want to learn another programming language and i need some hints where to start
17:28:24 <sedimin> or if you want to learn unesoteric language, try Lua
17:29:40 <nooga> coded hell lots of scripts for some idiotic games in it
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17:31:38 <nooga> i know it (not at all but always...)
17:31:54 <sedimin> so what you don't know? :)
17:31:55 <nooga> even tried to write interpreter in C
17:42:16 <nooga> you're that guy who has invented omgrofl?
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17:45:52 <nooga> it's cool, i attempted to write fibonacci printer in it but number output was too time consuming
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21:54:07 <nooga> what r u hacking now?
22:00:08 -!- jix has joined.
22:07:00 <nooga> jix: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
22:08:21 <jix> nooga: football?
22:09:53 <nooga> 1:0 in for Germany in 92nd minute... i knew
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23:06:54 <kipple> det er ikke akkurat den mest aktive kanalen i verden nei
23:06:58 <oerjanj> i wondered if keymaker was here he seemed interested in my last language
23:07:28 <oerjanj> det var mer liv sist men det var litt senere p kvelden
23:09:59 <ihope> Yeah, that's what I mean.
23:10:28 <oerjanj> easy mistake for an american. we pretend not to be offended. :-)
23:13:17 <ihope> What? It was a typo...
23:13:56 <kipple> typos can be offensive too... ;)
23:14:00 <oerjanj> Norwegian=Swedish is a typo? _Now_ i am offended :-)
23:15:54 <ihope> I meant Norwegian, okay?
23:16:00 * ihope storms off in a pretend rage
23:17:32 <GregorR-W> They're pretty similar. You know, like Chinese and Hebrew.
23:18:10 <kipple> actually, by many linguists they are considered the same languages
23:18:35 * kipple removes the last 's' from the previous sentence
23:18:38 <oerjanj> yeah, most of the interesting features are common
23:19:26 <ihope> Hmm, "Se Habla Espanol".
23:19:44 <ihope> What does "hablarse" mean, again? :-P
23:21:50 <kipple> Swedish is like Norwegian much in the same way as Ook! is like brainfuck ;)
23:22:22 <ihope> Ook! Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook!
23:22:54 <oerjanj> would danish be like Moo then?
23:23:25 <ihope> ...Um, apparently, that's "increment until zero".
23:24:14 <ihope> Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook? Ook! Ook? Ook?
23:24:37 <kipple> does EgoBot speak Ook! ?
23:25:07 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
23:25:09 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
23:25:32 <ihope> Write me a Brainfuck interpreter in Unlambda and I'll turn it into an Ook interpreter :-P
23:26:27 <ihope> Now, if I'm not mistaken, it is easy for Unlambda to simulate Unlambda: just construct a tree with all your primitive thingies, then fold them into a function, which is your program.
23:27:00 <oerjanj> that's what i did in my unlambda self-interpreter, essentially
23:27:57 <ihope> And it's a proof that Unlambda can't be compiled into anything unlike it :-P
23:28:09 <oerjanj> that ook! program is wrong, Ook? Ook? is not a legal instruction
23:28:44 <ihope> But it's never executed.
23:29:01 <kipple> so, it's a comment then? :)
23:29:47 <ihope> I dunno. In the Haskell program "main = seq undefined (3+2)", is the (3+2) a comment?
23:30:49 <oerjanj> how unlike does it have to be? it combiled fine into Ocaml
23:31:09 <oerjanj> not particularly efficiently though
23:32:14 <oerjanj> hm, a brainfuck interpreter in Unlambda
23:32:35 <bsmntbombdood> In brainfuck, if I have a number in a cell, how can I move right that number of cells?
23:33:46 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: is it the traditional "data, junk, data, junk, data, junk..." tape layout thing?
23:34:14 <ihope> Can you afford to throw away the junk?
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23:35:48 <Keymaker> nope yet :) i came to the channel right after reading something in logs that you wondered if i'm here :p
23:36:49 <bsmntbombdood> ihope: if the cells are like this "0 0 0 0 x 0 0 0 0...", how can I move x cells to the right?
23:37:00 <ihope> Ah, that makes it easy.
23:38:07 <oerjanj> what if the only cell you can afford to throw away is the one containing x?
23:38:25 <ihope> Then it's probably impossible.
23:38:35 <ihope> That's why you should have throwaway cells.
23:39:12 <oerjanj> hm, you can't swap content of two cells without throwaway?
23:39:28 <ihope> Loops have to end on a zero.
23:39:29 <oerjanj> but with two throwaway cells it ought to work
23:39:43 <ihope> Oh, by the way, bsmntbombdood: do you want to leave that one x in place, or can it be zeroed?
23:40:09 <ihope> Okay, because the above will zero it.
23:40:41 <ihope> It turns 4 0 0 0 0 into 0 3 0 0 0 into 0 0 2 0 0 into 0 0 0 1 0 into 0 0 0 0 0, moving to the right each time.
23:41:00 <oerjanj> if x and the cell to its right are expendable...
23:41:20 <ihope> It could go 4 0 0 0 0 -> 4 3 0 0 0 -> 4 0 2 0 0 -> 4 0 0 1 0 -> 4 0 0 0 0.
23:41:49 <ihope> Well, 4 0 0 0 0 -> 4 4 0 0 0 -> 4 3 0 0 0...
23:41:55 <bsmntbombdood> I need to keep the cells between x and the destination
23:42:14 <oerjanj> or x and the cell to its left, then?
23:42:17 <ihope> All of the cells between x and the destination, no matter what their values are?
23:42:44 <Keymaker> perhaps something like this would help? [->[<<+>>-]<[>+<-]>] ?
23:42:56 <Keymaker> (if i got this problem correct :\)
23:42:59 <bsmntbombdood> ihope: a couple of cells close to x would be ok to throw away
23:43:07 <ihope> Then unless you know that the gap is less than a certain size, it's probably impossible.
23:43:29 <ihope> With some "disposable" cells every once in a while, it would be possible.
23:44:02 <ihope> Well, are these finite cells or infinite?
23:44:08 <oerjanj> first swap x and its neighbor with the neighbors two steps to the right
23:44:38 <oerjanj> (the neighbor is used for temporary storage)
23:45:18 <oerjanj> maybe just one step is simpler
23:46:03 <oerjanj> decrementing x, then you continue swapping, making sure to repair the left hand side as you go
23:46:18 <oerjanj> until x reaches 0, then finish clean up
23:51:34 <Keymaker> notice that my code moves all the cells one left
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23:55:04 <Keymaker> yeah,two it is.. my brain isn't functioning
23:57:58 * oerjanj is starting to think it _is_ impossible to do that easily
00:01:16 <Keymaker> here's a version that lefts the cells one left. (i may be non-right again..).. [->[<<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[>+<-]>>]
00:02:03 <Keymaker> i can think of nothing when clock gets past midnight :D
00:02:41 <oerjanj> i think it is impossible to do it in one pass, at least
00:05:21 <oerjanj> now with three cells you could have the distance to both ends simultaneously, plus a cell of temporary storage
00:13:36 * oerjanj ponder the sense of "insensitive" in Reaper's capitalization insensitivity
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01:19:00 <SimonRC> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=188407&cid=15530602
01:19:01 * SimonRC considers the similarity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fifa_world_cup_org.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:War_of_the_worlds_Poster.jpg
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04:56:53 <poiuy_qwert> whats that esoteric language that has an interpreter that is 13 bytes or something crazy like that?
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12:09:56 * SimonRC mutters about undedicated people that bugger of after only 2 hours on channel
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16:05:17 <ihope> So is Norway really the place to be?
16:15:54 <ihope> Well, Norway is definitely preferable over Niger.
16:19:59 * SimonRC does a little research and discovers a usenet thread 5297 messages long (depth-wise).
16:20:02 * SimonRC is in awe at the Deep History.
16:20:12 <SimonRC> Alas, it seems to have died and been revived at some point, losing the References and slightly changing the title.
16:20:29 <SimonRC> It's the "10,000 Celerity cds" thread in alt.games.mornington.cresent. The count-down from 10,000 started in 1997 some time.
16:21:15 * ihope notices that "p" and "b" are pronounced very smilarly
16:21:28 <SimonRC> Then again, there was IIRC a phone conversation that lasted many years once.
16:21:47 <ihope> Just like "d" and "t".
16:22:07 <SimonRC> Some phreakers dialed into an onld machine in the back on an exchange somewhere and the conversation ended up continuing in shifts.
16:22:28 <SimonRC> ihope: http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/cxschart.png
16:23:13 <ihope> Ah, that's useful.
16:23:41 <ihope> But it doesn't have any velar trill symbol...
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16:48:40 * SimonRC admires one of his bits of work: http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=388725#388725
16:52:44 <ihope> You mean "I am teh half-joking"? :-)
17:40:01 <wildhalcyon> ihope, since when have you needed to use a velar trill?
17:40:40 <ihope> Um, since I decided to make a language that has every consonant.
17:43:24 <ihope> It has consonants like the "sinister projection" and the "hypoallergenic stop".
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17:53:09 <ihope> It has both a voiced glottal juxtaposition and a voiceless glottal juxtaposition.
18:07:58 <SimonRC> "Windows System tray monitor has detected the you system tray is too full. Click here to run the System Tray Cleanup Wizard." :-D
18:08:55 <SimonRC> ihope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%21X%C3%B3%C3%B5_language
18:09:00 <SimonRC> wildhalcyon: that was a joke, BTW
18:09:18 <SimonRC> ihope: but that is real, AFAIK
18:18:45 <ihope> An average-length consonant name in this language is "cetacean signature whistle superimposed with indeterminate hyperbolic sine wave". All of the above are unusually short.
18:21:14 <ihope> Actually, maybe that was a vowel.
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18:25:22 <wildhalcyon> what is an indeterminate hyperbolic sine wave?
18:26:48 <ihope> Yeah. The "indeterminate" bit means that it's... wait a minute.
18:27:35 <ihope> Oh, right. It's probabilistic.
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19:15:50 <SimonRC> "Music And Film Industry Association of America (MAFIAA)" :-D
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19:17:31 <ihope> Grr. Why do I keep typing "define" as "defube"?
19:18:00 <Arrogant> That is an incredibly question.
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19:47:56 <wildhalcyon> I made a new esolang, but I don't have time right now to post the spec to the wiki
19:49:29 <wildhalcyon> Mostly because I'm still finishing up by adding some examples.
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01:36:34 <ihope> Put a colon in front of every message.
01:36:40 <ihope> PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like this.
01:37:26 <ihope> So far, each of your messages has had only one word.
01:38:04 <calamari> hurray from lame ms-dos irc clients
01:54:44 <calamari> so I guess that means you guys didn't see the part about my shell being down yet again
01:55:47 <calamari> I leave my computer on so much that I just about don't need one now anyways
01:55:52 <ihope> No, I didn't see it.
01:56:28 <calamari> I'd need to set up a script to update dyndns every so often, that's about it
01:56:29 <ihope> hi, hmm, did, hehe, this, I'm, since, only, oh,, test. :-)
01:58:22 <calamari> I was with one free dyndns provider, but they terminated me because my dns change often enough for themm
01:59:37 <calamari> I guess the other problem is that the port must be nonstandard.. I guess I can solve that with my domain tho
02:00:16 <calamari> blah, wish I didn't have to worry about this.. dumb people being irresponsible, and I'm paying them
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02:53:50 <Arrogant> Have you guys ever heard of Io?
03:01:05 <ihope> Or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_programming_language
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03:27:06 <SimonRC> http://nicolaas.net/dudley/index.php?f=20060608 <-- hehehe
03:27:28 <ihope> That's supposed to go in #nethack. :-P
03:28:00 <SimonRC> everyone in #nethack who should read DD already does AFAICT
03:28:07 * SimonRC tries to remember why this is relevent here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Krungthepmahanakornamornratanakosinmahintarayutthayamahadilokphopnopparatrajathaniburiromudomrajaniwesmahasatharnamornphimarnavatarnsathitsakkattiyavisanukamprasit&redirect=no
03:29:41 <ihope> "The city of angels, the great city, the eternal jewel city, the impregnable city of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukarn."
03:30:25 <ihope> I went to the city of angels, the great city, the eternal jewel city, the impregnable city of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukarn. In the city of angels, the great city, the eternal...
03:30:27 <ihope> ...jewel city, the impregnable city of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukarn, there was a sign that said "Welcome to the city of angels, the great city, the eternal jewel city, the...
03:30:29 <ihope> ...impregnable city of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukarn!"
03:31:29 <ihope> Compare: I went to chicago. In Chicago, there was a sign that said "Welcome to Chicago!"
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04:25:34 <Arrogant> wildhalcyon, did you post your new language yet?
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04:27:57 <wildhalcyon> I forgot to add the comment in the edit that it was specifically editing to add M-> Metropolis
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04:31:29 * Arrogant figures that one of these days he'll post his work
04:32:43 <wildhalcyon> I thought my idea was all cool and inspirational, but it turns out it probably isnt :-(
04:33:13 <wildhalcyon> instead of pixel colors, it uses a symbol transition table
04:34:01 <wildhalcyon> there's no way to provide I/O to the program however.
04:34:34 <wildhalcyon> you can have an initial state, and an output state, but I haven't really thought of a way to provide I/O
04:37:50 * Arrogant is writing a parser module for Io
04:37:58 <Arrogant> Then I'll implement the language there.
04:39:30 <Arrogant> Right now I am mostly happy with it
04:39:44 <Arrogant> But there's something bugging me about how you can dynamically access scopes but not methods
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04:40:26 <Arrogant> Oh right, you haven't been here when I've explained it
04:41:22 * Arrogant might've talked about it more than once
04:56:00 <wildhalcyon> at http://www.maa.org/editorial/mathgames/mathgames_06_07_04.html it mentions the "state" of the turing machine head. How should I interpret that?
04:58:02 <wildhalcyon> I guess I should probably include some kind of current 'state' for my program
05:14:04 <lament> wildhalcyon: that's how the turing machines work. There's the position of the head, and there's the state.
05:14:30 <wildhalcyon> I always understood it as acting more like BF, I guess
05:16:05 <lament> it doesn't have a sequential "program"
05:18:19 <wildhalcyon> Although now I have to deal with adding that to the syntax
05:20:39 <wildhalcyon> Metropolis, my new esolang for 2D turing machines
05:35:47 <Arrogant> You should probably change User:WildHalcyon ;)
05:35:56 * Arrogant wishes he remembered the syntax
05:36:06 <Arrogant> Don't need the User: to show up on the displayed
05:36:30 <Arrogant> You can have it say WildHalcyon and still lead to User:WildHalcyon
05:36:43 <lament> http://gallery.z3.ca/d/10898-1/love.jpg
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13:14:01 <SimonRC> are you the amature photographer?
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13:49:17 <SimonRC> Keymaker: how did you see the photo?
13:49:31 <SimonRC> you weren't there at the time!
13:50:53 <SimonRC> It is really much simpler just to never leave the channel.
13:52:05 <SimonRC> 13:51:22 up 37 days, 23:56, 26 users, load average: 0.05, 0.34, 0.88"
13:52:45 <SimonRC> ads cim cim djw dk ecb psn rjlh rjlh sc sc sc sc sc sc sc sc sc sc sc sc sr tsp tw tw webmin"
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14:43:13 <sedimin> who has to know it, if you do not? :)
15:14:03 <SimonRC> Yay! They posted it! http://worldrps.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=211&Itemid=1
15:16:08 <ihope> Rock Paper Scissors!
15:16:19 <ihope> It took me a longish time to figure that out, actually.
15:16:45 <SimonRC> WTF have hotmail doe that disables middle-click?
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15:19:48 <ihope> "Ay-yay-yay me psuella es ay carumba!"
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15:25:35 <sedimin> today i received my first e-mail demanding support, from an user of my software..
15:25:55 <sedimin> i hope there'll not be hundreds of mails liek this after some time :)
15:27:07 <ihope> What software is it?
15:31:04 <ihope> "Under no circumstances can a losing throw ever beat a winning throw." :-)
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02:14:13 <ihope> Developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers?
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03:15:22 <SimonRC> hmm, accurate: http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=2290
03:15:57 <SimonRC> Ye gods this is clever! perl -e '$??s:;s:s;;$?::s;;=]=>%-{<-|}<&|`{;; y; -/:-@[-`{-};`-{/" -;;s;;$_;see'
03:16:10 <SimonRC> http://www.dlitz.net/stuff/malicious-perl-sig/
03:30:16 <SimonRC> well, the program starts with the equivalent of: false?asdfasdfasdf:morestuff
03:30:27 <SimonRC> i.e. only moresutff gets executed.
03:31:00 <SimonRC> Now, Larry Wall was not just a programmer, but a linguist too...
03:31:21 <SimonRC> the default pronoun for many things is called $_
03:31:53 <SimonRC> it is what allows perl to work like sed often, since $_ is implicit in many places
03:32:21 <SimonRC> you know what sed is, right?
03:32:56 <SimonRC> perl has some of the same stuff as that in it.
03:33:26 <SimonRC> but perl justifies such things belonging in a real language by using $_
03:33:46 <SimonRC> $_ is the variable that commands often work on if you specify no other variable
03:34:20 <SimonRC> so, the first command is a substitution on $_, like sed's s///.
03:34:41 <SimonRC> except, here the programmer chose to use ; instead of /
03:35:24 <SimonRC> it replaces nothing ($_ is initially empty AFAICT) with =]=>%-{<-|}<&|`{ in $_
03:35:50 <SimonRC> which basically acts like $_ = '=]=>%-{<-|}<&|`{'
03:36:33 <SimonRC> so, we have a string of precise garbage in $_
03:36:53 <SimonRC> now, the y command translates chars into other chars with a look-up table
03:37:14 <SimonRC> he has used lots of ranges, to make the LHS shorter and the RHS letter-free
03:37:57 <SimonRC> if you work out what the table is, you find it turns all the ASCII punctuation except ~ into (mostly) letters.
03:38:28 <SimonRC> this turns the string of garbage in $_ into system"rm -rf /"
03:39:25 <SimonRC> the final substitution turns nothing into $_ (don't quite understand that myself), and executes the result.
03:39:41 <SimonRC> Tada! He demonstrates that perl is too powerful
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15:22:50 <kipple> hmm. my new language has a feature I'm starting to think could be a problem: It is not possible to have code in the program that is not executed at least once. I.e. If is not possible
15:23:00 <kipple> would that be a problem for turing completeness?
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17:33:14 <ihope> BASIC and Haskell are opposites.
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17:50:07 <SimonRC> kipple: I think that is not a problem
17:52:25 <SimonRC> given cond = [expression giving 1 or 0], then you do tt twice, undo tt (2-i) times, do ff twice, undo ff (1+i) times.
17:52:45 <SimonRC> the net result is: if c then tt else ff endif
17:58:41 <SimonRC> ye gods this compiler is crap so far...
17:59:56 <SimonRC> " fp[-2] = (int)malloc(8);
18:00:32 <SimonRC> Note that fp points to the last value pushed at the strt of that snippet.
18:00:37 <ihope> So Subtle Cough is useless...
18:01:22 <SimonRC> Well, my job next academic year is to make it into an ptimising compiler
18:01:43 <ihope> What's it compiling?
18:04:16 <SimonRC> it assumes that sizeof(int)=8
18:04:21 <SimonRC> it assumes that sizeof(int)=4
18:05:41 <SimonRC> is it traditional for the stack pointer to point at the top item of the stack or the place where the next item will be put?
18:11:49 <ihope> Who uses pointers? :-P
18:16:28 <SimonRC> OMFG! http://elitemrp.net/fark/2006/hdd/
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21:03:07 <wildhalcyon> Only from the perspective of the ground, in reference to physical objects
21:03:14 <ihope> Yeah, duh. Why don't you just LOOK up, you idiot?
21:04:06 <wildhalcyon> Well, suppose you're at the International Space Station?
21:07:36 <ihope> There are two ups, but they're in opposite directions, so they cancel out.
21:08:12 <wildhalcyon> up is a constantly changing dynamic quantity
21:11:56 <ihope> At a given point X, up is the opposite of the direction of the net gravity at X.
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21:13:37 <wildhalcyon> depends on where you currently are on the planet
21:14:00 <wildhalcyon> for the most part, its going to be the normal vector to the surface of the planet at point x
21:14:03 <ihope> If there is no net gravity at X, then the direction of the net gravity at X is undefined, making up at point X undefined.
22:02:05 <ihope> Hmm. A Google search for "cow tipping" gives "Wikipedia: Cow Tipping", with a description of "Examines the evidence that cow tipping is an urban myth." Compare this to one of the results for "Phil Stocks": "Phil Stocks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", with the description of "Phil Stocks then worked on the two RSL trials at 107.2 WIN FM, before becoming the drivetime presenter in 1999....
22:02:06 <ihope> ...In July 2001 Phil joined Wessex FM soon ..."
22:11:40 <ihope> http://pastebin.com/715432 <- makes little sense
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22:21:18 <ihope> The pastebin thing, or the Google thing?
22:26:38 <ihope> The pastebin is a snip of stuff copied from Mirek's Cellebration.
22:26:48 <ihope> The Google thing is a proof that Google is magic.
22:28:38 <ihope> Ah, but Yahoo provides "sublinks" for the Wikipedia article on cow tipping!
22:31:05 <bsmntbombdood> it's amazing that they get any work done at google.
22:34:53 <bsmntbombdood> "here, take this scooter and ride around all day."
22:35:16 <ihope> Boosting worker morale can't be bad :-P
22:36:13 <bsmntbombdood> I saw some pictures of a google office, and they just had a WHOLE BOWL full of m&ms on the counter
22:37:29 <ihope> Maybe that's just to lure workers in, and then they use them for slaves.
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00:24:43 <SimonRC> I was wondering how the heck you did that.
00:25:33 <SimonRC> how you managed to accidently type "digital_me|away" twice
00:38:09 <SimonRC> “Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Göring during the Nuremberg Trials
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14:00:28 <SimonRC> lolol: http://archive.gamespy.com/dailyvictim/index.asp?id=465
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18:44:49 <SimonRC> hmm, this guy has a haunted school: http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=389361#389361
21:17:30 <SimonRC> Ah, the wonders of automatically-generated C:
21:17:40 <SimonRC> "if (fp[-9] < *(int *)(*(int *)(fp[0]))) goto L_2;"
21:21:42 <SimonRC> ooh, ooh, ooh, this snippet's even better:
21:21:47 <SimonRC> fp[-8] = *(int *)((*(int *)(fp[0]) + (4 * (fp[-13] + 1))));
21:21:48 <SimonRC> if (((fp[-1] < fp[-8]) == 0) == 1) goto L_20;"
21:22:51 * SimonRC decides that finding ways to optimise this compiler won't be hard.
21:35:43 <jix> hmm wasn't fast enough
22:06:22 <SimonRC> hehehe, someone has made a ringtone that pupils can hear but teachers can't: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/12/ringtone_adults_cannot_hear/
22:07:26 <SimonRC> what's most ironic, is that the sound was originally used as a sound to keep kids away from places.
22:27:49 <fizzie> I think that Mosquito was on slashdot or some such site. (And isn't that what they use Barry Manilow for? http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21498,19365341-421,00.html )
22:52:16 <SimonRC> ooh: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099892/trailers-screenplay-E10650-8-4
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01:04:34 <ihope`> What, this client only supports being in one channel at once?
01:05:34 <ihope`> Sheesh. I oughta just find an online TCP client.
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01:37:36 <ihope`> So what does "pudo" mean?
01:39:34 <ihope`> Apparently it's the first person "pretrito perfecto simple" form of "poder".
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03:00:10 <ihope> SimonRC: apparently I was going to tell you something the day before yesterday, as my chat client contained "SimonRC: "
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16:59:13 * SimonRC grins at the output of the Happy parser generator: ..."happyReduction_3 _ _ = notHappyAtAll"...
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17:20:17 <ihope> But that isn't guaranteed to output anything at all.
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01:30:17 <ihope> Ah, it's easy enough.
01:30:58 <ihope> You just need to have a series of "traversers", which move around, processing data.
01:32:48 <ihope> Essentially, they'd be functions on streams.
01:33:27 <ihope> If the traverser @ turned "foo" into "bar", you'd just have the production rule: @foo::=bar@
01:47:15 <ihope> I'm trying to write a beer program.
01:47:47 <ihope> $::=#%(.)!!# %(,)!#@.!^!
01:48:45 <ihope> I'm sure it's less scary than it looks.
01:50:03 <ihope> beer::= bottles of beer on the wall
01:50:26 <ihope> Oh, that up there should be $::=#%(.)!!#%(,)!#@.!^!
01:50:38 <ihope> And beer::=~ bottles of beer on the wall
01:52:35 <ihope> bottles::=~ bottles of beer
01:53:01 <ihope> More changes: $::=#%(.)!!#%(,)!#@(.)!^!
01:53:27 <bsmntbombdood> how about you do this in an editor, then show us when you're done
01:58:35 <bsmntbombdood> I don't want to ruin your fun, but there is an implementation here http://lvogel.free.fr/thue/beer.t
02:06:29 <ihope> Okay, I have no idea how that works, but it's better than my implementation :-)
02:27:05 <ihope> What's the trouble?
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09:33:38 <SimonRC> W_work: you don't seem familiar
09:35:00 <W_work> probably because I'm not
09:35:09 <W_work> familiar to you that is
09:36:00 <W_work> just thought I'd hang around, one of these days I'll get around to writing down one of the esoteric languages I have running around in my brain
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10:13:26 <SimonRC> where did you find us from?
10:14:40 <W_work> Wikipedia -> esoteric wiki main page -> joke language list -> IRP
10:31:38 * SimonRC started all this by reading the column on esolangs in NewScientist
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15:49:31 <ihope> My Thue program didn't work.
15:49:43 <ihope> Hopefully it works now...
15:49:56 <ihope> That is, it works now.
15:49:58 <ihope> http://pastebin.com/720995
15:51:03 <W_work> pastebin is really slow for me today
15:51:10 <W_work> also, it has no syntax highlighting for thue
15:52:49 <ihope> Well, you start with a string like "+{1101}", containing a number in binary.
15:53:42 <ihope> It'll inject a "bubble" into the number, as well as a marker to keep it from injecting too many bubbles: "+{&%1101}", where % is the bubble and & is the marker.
15:54:32 <ihope> This bubble "flows" to the end of the number: "+{&1101%}". After that, it picks up a number to produce "
15:55:14 <ihope> This bubble "flows" to the end of the number: "+{&1101%}". After that, it "picks up" a number to produce "+{&110(1)}", then it flows back to the beginning: "+{&(1)110}"
15:56:27 <ihope> Then it pops out of the number entirely, giving "+(1){110}", which becomes "$#+{110}". That is, the bubble becomes $# as it pops out of the +.
15:57:44 <ihope> Then the + injects another bubble, which carries a 0 to the front, and that just becomes #, producing "$##+{11}", then a 1 is carried out, producing "$##$#+{1}", and another 1, making "$##$#$#+{}".
15:58:31 <ihope> The +{} becomes [], so we're left with "$##$#$#[]". The # acts as a prefix doubling operator, using a ^ bubble, and the $ is a prefix increment.
15:58:57 <ihope> Finally, we're left with the result: "[*************]".
16:00:14 <W_work> well all Thue programs are converters
16:00:17 <ihope> It turns a binary number into a so-called unary number.
16:00:29 <W_work> this one converts a binary representation of a number to its unary representation
16:00:40 <ihope> One could argue that all programs are converters.
16:00:56 <W_work> one could, were one perverse
16:01:01 <W_work> then again I guess we all are, here
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18:56:35 <ihope> English: the most esoteric language of them all!
18:56:52 <ihope> It's ambiguous AND contradictory...
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19:00:44 <lament> YOUR MOM is ambiguous and contradictory.
19:06:33 <_W_> ihope, I do not think that word means what you think it means.
19:08:12 <ihope> Does it essentially mean "cryptic" or "obfuscated"?
19:08:24 <ihope> Or "hidden from knowledge", or something?
19:09:33 <_W_> not really
19:10:27 <ihope> "Knowable only by a select few"?
19:11:08 <_W_> I would say english is knowable by pretty much everyone, and is hardly perverse or obscure
19:11:21 <ihope> Yeah, I guess you're right.
19:11:50 <_W_> lament, you realize someone (most likely me) will write a programming language called YOUR MOM now, right?
19:35:07 <SimonRC> ``< W_work> "all this" being?'' -- my interest in esolangs
19:39:26 <SimonRC> "Dear ITS: In an HTML page, you don't need to wrap text manually using <BR>. Web browsers can automatically wrap text within a paragraph, and this automatic wrapping may even interact badly with manual wrapping. Yours, Simon (d41dp5)." -- http://www.dur.ac.uk/its/services/email/block/
19:39:40 <SimonRC> the URL is a reference, not a source, BTW
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20:41:39 <ihope> So they call themselves TOYS "Я" US...
20:44:26 <ihope> Тхис ис нот Руссиан.
20:44:47 <ihope> Ит маы лоок лике ит, бут ит ис, ин фацт, Енглиш.
20:45:02 <ihope> Um... so where can I post my gibberish?
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21:23:20 <_W_> <gibberish.txt >/dev/null
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01:02:01 <ihope> So why do I need to inject an "equal guard" but not an "add guard"?
01:03:40 <ihope> I guess it's just because you can stick an equal bubble to the left of an add bubble, but you can't but an equal bubble to the left of another equal bubble.
01:04:34 <ihope> It looks like you can stick anything to the left of an add bubble, but you can't put anything to the left of an equal bubble.
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01:38:04 <ihope> I think {add} may be unique in not requiring a guard like that one.
01:39:39 <ihope> If {foo}[bar][baz] is at least [bar], you don't need a guard.
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02:28:17 <ihope> So, uh, Kenan Thompson...
02:28:36 <ihope> (That was not an address.)
02:31:24 <ihope> When I heard that "Hey, hey, hey!", I immediately thought of Aahz, from the Myth series.
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02:32:54 <ihope> Or the MythAdventures series, I guess it's called.
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03:11:54 <Arrogant> If you are looking for more esoteric material from me I have been very lacking in that area! :(
03:17:48 * Arrogant goes back to writing ioparsing
03:18:05 <rabidpoobear> I was temporarily vexed when I thought I had a dubbed version, only to realize that DVDs have a cool feature where they have more than one audio track, and it came with the original French.
03:18:48 <rabidpoobear> Subtitles + original language = scarier than cheesy dubbing
03:19:24 <Arrogant> I'd rather watch good dubbed though
03:19:30 <Arrogant> Nah, I broke it and never bothered to fix it
03:19:42 <Arrogant> Going to rewrite the parser in Io once I finish writing the parser lib
03:20:14 <Arrogant> Io is almost esoteric in its own right ;)
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11:08:14 <SimonRC> # I drank some champagne from your shoe. #
11:08:30 <SimonRC> # I was drunk by the time I got through, #
11:08:47 <SimonRC> # For I didn't know as I raised the cup #
11:09:01 <SimonRC> # It had taken 2 bottles to fill the thing up. #
11:39:05 <SimonRC> "The lesser-studied probems of number theory: Factoring primes and finding composites"
12:07:03 <W_work> int[] findFactorsOfPrime(int prime){return new int[]{1,prime};}
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22:40:40 <Keymaker> me? never tried :P i got my name from the matrix 2 :)
22:58:16 <Keymaker> dunno if i'm good, but check out bf-hacks.org ;)
22:58:42 <Keymaker> and koti.mbnet.fi/yiap, althought both should be updated some day..
22:59:02 <Keymaker> (hey, nice, i wasn't this time so delayed in my reply:))
23:00:24 <Keymaker> well, i'm just doing it for fun and not for any competing in skills
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23:36:42 * SimonRC finds the terrible pun that a wand of striking makes when you engrave with it
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14:12:34 <SimonRC> An American would think nothing of driving 100 miles to go shopping, but a European would thing nothing of walking 100 yards to go shopping. :-)
14:54:11 <W_ork> and some of us think both are out of the question
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20:37:10 <SimonRC> not only: http://alcopop.org/temp/O/Come/All/Ye/FaithfulO/come/all/ye/faithful/joyful/and/triumphant/Come/ye/O/come/ye/to/Bethlehem/Come/and/behold/Him/born/the/King/of/angelsRefrainO/come/let/us/adore/Him/O/come/let/us/adore/Him/O/come/let/us/adore/Him/Christ/the/Lord/README
20:37:28 <SimonRC> but also: http://alcopop.org/temp/O/Come/All/Ye/FaithfulO/come/all/ye/faithful/joyful/and/triumphant/Come/ye/O/come/ye/to/Bethlehem/Come/and/behold/Him/born/the/King/of/angelsRefrainO/come/let/us/adore/Him/O/come/let/us/adore/Him/O/come/let/us/adore/Him/Christ/the/Lord/we/need/to/go/a/little/further/to/get/past/the/256/char/path/limit/in/squid/
20:55:05 <Sgeo> In my school, they had "Come, All Ye Faithful" played at the holiday concert >:(
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22:07:06 <jix> i'll go to England soon
22:07:19 <jix> in... 2 days
22:07:50 <ihope> I'll go to England eventually.
22:10:27 <lament> england sucks at soccer!
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22:46:11 <Keymaker> cool, gregorr in england! for some reason i always think you're british, and then remember you're american
22:46:41 <Keymaker> i was in england a few months ago
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22:58:59 <ihope> Um, mini-netsplit?
23:04:48 <SimonRC> heh: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29298
23:05:21 <SimonRC> Tell GregorR-P I am also in England.
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23:33:04 <_W_> the onion fail to disappoint again
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23:51:49 <ihope> Type "the" into the address bar and see what happens.
00:01:52 <_W_> I wind up on my own domain
00:34:45 <ihope> Not to be confused with s/to/too/g.
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02:11:41 <ihope> Word of the day: "wherever".
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08:28:14 <W_ork> And a glorious morning to you!
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16:18:42 <ihope> Bleh, I forgot what that one IRC server was.
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20:13:15 * ihope_ invents an esolang and calls it "Monads! Monads! Monads!"
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20:42:19 <ihope_> Sgeo: what was that IRC place you pointed me at?
20:44:24 <Sgeo> ihope_: Did you see my PM?
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21:28:31 <Keymaker> well, fine i guess.. i think i should have fun but it's not fun now. :)
21:29:41 <Keymaker> i'll try to either plan more of the eso stuff i've been doing, or then try programming something
21:32:46 <ihope_> A language in which functions can't return...
21:33:08 <Keymaker> aargh. that's one of my plans!
21:33:24 <Keymaker> it would work pretty well, i think
21:34:03 <ihope_> A language in which functions can't return is one of your plans?
21:35:26 <Keymaker> blah, this specs is so messy..
21:36:22 <Keymaker> i guess i can only blame myself for not being fast enough and just keeping things on mind or paper until it's too late:(
21:37:29 <Keymaker> this specs was named 'afl', kinda like in awful. no idea whether it sounds any same :D
21:37:52 <Keymaker> afl from 'a functional language', although it wouldn't really be, i guess:)
21:40:11 <_W_> hey, what's the point of continuations, as in the syntax for a language?
21:40:32 <_W_> the canonical example being print(x,square) where square(x) returns the square of x
21:40:46 <_W_> yeah, an extra argument to a function that says where the function should return its value to
21:41:13 <_W_> wait, bad example
21:41:26 <_W_> ihope_, ok, it's got nothing to do with the syntax?
21:41:40 <_W_> for instance yes
21:41:43 <ihope_> No, nothing to do with syntax, as long as you can call variables :-)
21:42:19 <_W_> but there was this page, that went on about how continuations could be implemented without a stack, that you could just long jump etc
21:42:39 <_W_> but to me that doesn't really seem different from how regular functions are implemented
21:43:19 <_W_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuations
21:43:28 <Keymaker> ihope: can i try finishing afl, or will you start working on that idea (that i've had too!), or..?
21:43:56 <_W_> that page describes something other than what I was reading about
21:44:05 <Keymaker> "this specs was named 'afl', kinda like in awful. no idea whether it sounds any same"
21:45:11 <Keymaker> just read what a few mins ago! :)
21:45:13 <_W_> soundex('afl')='A140', soundex('awful')='A140'
21:45:29 <Keymaker> does it mean it sounds same? :D
21:45:57 <_W_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundex
21:48:12 <Keymaker> i asked you a question minutes ago..
21:48:37 <Keymaker> can i work on afl, OR do you want to use the idea as you were the first to say it in public
21:49:32 <ihope_> I don't think I was the first to come up with it...
21:49:58 <ihope_> I'll let you do the log-sifting. :-P
21:50:16 <_W_> there's already a lot of esolangs with duplicate ideas, a few more won't hurt
21:50:28 <Keymaker> i don't understand what log-sifting is..
21:50:57 <ihope_> Look through the channel logs.
21:50:57 <_W_> do you understand the concept of a chat log? and know what sifting means?
21:51:11 <_W_> if so, just combine the concepts until it makes sense :p
21:52:17 <Keymaker> i'm too lazy to browse the logs.. what if i just use the idea, as i thought of it before hearing it anywhere. i guess it wouldn't harm anyone
21:52:28 <_W_> is it a bad idea to write a compiler that compiles to java bytecode?
21:52:41 <_W_> I'd hate to have to read up on how modern cpus does things
21:52:54 <ihope_> _W_: well, Java is generally compiled to Java bytecode, so it couldn't be *too* bad.
21:53:23 <_W_> yeah I'm liking the idea, I'm just curious if there's any good reasons not to
21:55:06 <Keymaker> this most likely won't be turing-tarpit..
21:55:08 <ihope_> And I'll write mine, and hope we both post to the wiki at exactly the same time!
21:55:54 <Keymaker> well, maybe i shouldn't in that case. it may take days for me, and then people'd just think i ripped your idea
21:56:24 <ihope_> What if I rot-13'd it, so nobody would be able to figure it out? :-P
21:57:33 <Keymaker> or then don't post in wiki before i do, and we could just agree here when to post..?
21:58:33 <ihope_> I could wait for you to finish before posting.
21:58:40 <ihope_> That way, my language will be better :-P
21:58:50 <Keymaker> well, you can do that if you want to
21:59:08 <ihope_> It seems that displaying the current state of a cellular automaton is the slowest part of this program. The second fastest way to do things seems to be in the period checker with the display turned off.
21:59:20 <ihope_> Turing the display on slows it down by a factor of about 20.
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22:13:06 <_W_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CHIQRSX9_Plus lol
22:13:13 <_W_> Command X Makes the programming language Turing-complete. How this is supposed to be achieved is not clearly specified. (The Perl implementation generates a random number, adds it to each character in the program, and interprets the resulting program code as Perl code.)
22:13:37 <Keymaker> blah.. i'll use the basic idea of this language a bit, but it won't be a functional language or anything anymore. so, feel free to post whenever you're done ihope, as this will be entirely different and likely take days or be abandoned :)
22:15:44 <Keymaker> (this shows pretty much how i always work on my langs..)
22:22:02 <_W_> what's a compact and readable way of encoding a (non-directed non-weighted) graph in a string?
22:29:49 <ihope_> You mean the dots connected with lines?
22:31:52 <_W_> I'd like something where it's easy to spot whether the graph is a plain ring, for instance, or a fully connected star topology
22:32:50 <ihope_> Stuff like "A-B-C-D-E-A", where the letters are nodes and the dashes are links?
22:33:12 <_W_> I could just do something like 1:2,3,4;2:1,3,4;3:1,2,4;4:1,2,3;
22:33:23 <_W_> but it would be redundant
22:34:00 <_W_> just <node number>:<comma separated list of nodes that connect to it>;...
22:34:11 <_W_> star topology with four nodes
22:34:30 <ihope_> Well, there's <node number>:<higher-numbered nodes connecting to it>.
22:34:39 <_W_> trees are so much simpler :(
22:35:02 <_W_> yes ihope_, that removes the redundancy, but it's much harder to spot what kind of graph it is
22:35:26 <_W_> I was hoping someone had had the same problem and come up with something smart
22:35:37 <ihope_> Well, you could use one form for compactness and another for readability.
22:36:31 <_W_> I could just say "define a graph, in whatever format you prefer", and let people use a png diagram if they wanted
22:36:43 <_W_> kind of hard to write a compiler for that tho :p
22:41:10 <ihope_> Wait... is this some esolang defined as a graph?
22:42:40 <ihope_> Ah. Well, Unlambda didn't care about readability, so...
22:43:09 <_W_> I'll just do the "enumerate connected higher nodes" for low and leave it up to posterity to make it prettier
22:43:44 <_W_> too few useful non-deterministic languages out there
22:43:54 <_W_> so I'm making one and then seeing if it's useful
22:44:35 <_W_> s/for low/for now/
22:46:41 <lament> in general, non-deterministic languages seem useful only when you avoid the non-deterministic features
22:46:44 <_W_> show an example of non-determinism used in a constructive way with thue
22:46:58 <_W_> I'd like to see if it isn't possible to change that
22:47:41 <_W_> there's certainly applications for non-deterministic behaviour, go AIs for instance mostly use monte carlo algorithms
22:49:02 <lament> i wouldn't write a Go AI in an esoteric language
22:51:34 * ihope_ claims the esolang names "Snake" and "Plane"
22:52:58 <_W_> lament, I know, just an example heh
22:53:10 <_W_> if you could, without going insane, the language wouldn't be esoteric for long
22:56:09 * lament claims the esolang name "On a mutherfucking"
22:58:38 * ihope_ un-claims "Snake" and gets "Snakes" instead
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14:34:32 <_W_> the wiki down, or just unreachable by me?
15:33:29 <SimonRC> _W_: what were you saying about graphs earlier?
16:37:43 <_W_> I'm just looking for a nice way to represent them.
16:38:30 <_W_> If the statements in a program are nodes in a graph, how do I write what nodes are connected
16:51:56 <pgimeno> flowcharts are graphs representing statements in programs
16:54:12 <_W_> we're talking textual representation tho
16:54:38 <_W_> and these graphs are just slightly more flexible
17:01:00 <_W_> pgimeno, I'm making a non-deterministic esolang, where the next node executed after one node is completed is random among those connected to it
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17:06:20 <pgimeno> I see, kind of a Thue with graphs right?
17:06:59 <_W_> not really
17:07:37 <_W_> it's threaded, and you have, for instance, a "fork" node
17:08:46 <_W_> beyond that I'm still experimenting
17:09:31 <_W_> I don't want it to be impossible to write a program which has a high probability of outputting "Hello, world!" and nothing else
17:11:43 <pgimeno> 10 LET A=A+1 GOTO 20,30,40
17:12:03 <_W_> yeah that's an idea, except it shouldn't be a directed graph
17:12:16 <_W_> but I guess I could let the gotos be comefrom's as well
17:12:23 <pgimeno> 10 LET A=A+1 COMEFROM 20,30,40
17:12:40 <_W_> 10 LET A=A+1 GOTOORCOMEFROM 20,30,40
17:13:42 * pgimeno thinks Malbolge is enough evilness for him
17:20:35 <pgimeno> wow... http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:vcsZz5FfPo8J:www.sakabe.i.is.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~nishida/DB/pdf/iizawa05ss2005-22.pdf+programming+method+obfuscated+language+malbolge&hl=es&ct=clnk&cd=5
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20:23:40 <ihope> I'd like a language that, while easy to interpret, is almost impossible to decompile.
20:23:55 <ihope> And almost impossible to modify in a predictable way.
20:24:32 <ihope> It wouldn't, however, be difficult to compile to.
20:28:05 <ihope> Not that you'd want to write in this language directly: if you wanted to make a change, no matter how trivial, you'd have to start over.
20:28:32 <ihope> I guess SNOBOL sort of meets these criteria, but it
20:28:37 <ihope> 's not easy to interpret.
20:28:53 <ihope> I suppose reversible cellular automata might help.
20:33:21 <ihope> Construct some machine that has an input, an output, and Something Else.
20:33:35 <ihope> Feed it the input and the output, and collect the Something Else. There's your program.
20:33:49 <ihope> Then to run it, feed in the input and the Something Else to get the output.
20:47:26 <ihope> It'd be a black box of computing.
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21:11:40 <SimonRC> omglolzorz: http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=189379&cid=15593478
21:11:54 <SimonRC> (read the slashdot story for context)
21:17:15 <_W_> ihope, there can't ever be such a thing
21:17:38 <_W_> unpossible
21:18:57 <_W_> worst possible case, you could just brute force all the possible inputs
21:19:05 <_W_> and decompile from that
21:19:46 <_W_> also, no such thing as a black box
21:20:01 <_W_> all boxes CAN be picked apart, one way or another
21:20:24 <_W_> "black box" is a way to think of something, not an actual thing
21:20:49 <ihope> Brute force can be infeasible.
21:21:04 <_W_> in _practice_ yes, but I was assuming you were talking theory
21:21:17 <ihope> Nope, I'm tlaking practice.
21:21:30 <_W_> in _practice_ any irreversible obfuscation is bound to make a program too slow
21:22:38 <_W_> and if you allow physical barriers, such a self-destruct on opening, it's just a matter of locking a computer including software into such a box
21:22:48 <_W_> nothing complex needed
21:24:02 <_W_> (and you could still reverse engineer, and create an equivalent program yourself, and modify that)
21:24:16 <_W_> it's a lost cause really
21:24:17 <ihope> What if you ran the programs on hardware designed to interpret the language?
21:24:40 <_W_> hardware that can't be picked apart you mean? (see my self-destructing box)
21:25:00 <_W_> you don't need a separate language
21:25:16 <_W_> a regular x86 or whatever is all you need, just lock it into such a box
21:27:28 <ihope> Nope. Crystal-clear hardware designed to run opaque software.
21:28:03 <_W_> if you can analyse the hardware, you can replicate it, and modify it
21:28:51 <ihope> Sure, you can modify the hardware, but the software would still be semi-immutable.
21:29:28 <_W_> also, how do you propose to make this software uncleanable?
21:30:14 <_W_> as in undecompilable
21:30:57 <ihope> I was just wondering if it was possible.
21:30:57 <_W_> what kind of language do you envision that can't be decompiled to, say C, and refactored until it made sense
21:31:17 <_W_> theoretically or practically?
21:31:20 <SimonRC> the problem with programs that are hard to decompile is thay may very well be hard to compile.interpret, too
21:31:35 <ihope> Practically unbreakable.
21:31:49 <_W_> ihope, you'd have to make some revolutionary breakthrough
21:31:53 <ihope> And practical to run and such.
21:32:00 <_W_> noone who have tried so far have come close (see: copy protection schemes)
21:32:54 <ihope> I'm not concerned with copy-protection, just modify-protection.
21:33:02 <_W_> the same principles applies
21:33:20 <_W_> the copy-protectors don't want the evil crackers to understand how their copy protection works so they can circumvent it
21:34:06 <_W_> granted it's a bit easier to find that one call/longjmp and alter it
21:34:19 <_W_> which is possible in 99% of them
21:34:49 <_W_> but even that 1% gets cracked eventually
21:36:41 <ihope> Well, if we really wanted to make this computer, we could start with RSA...
21:36:50 <_W_> how will that help?
21:37:09 <_W_> with RSA presumably the machine code would be decrypted SOMEWHERE
21:37:18 <_W_> so just hook into that SOMEWHERE and read out the cleaned code
21:37:26 <ihope> I mean RSA would *be* the code.
21:37:53 <ihope> I mean, you start with a number, and encrypt it repeatedly, and you'd be computing
21:38:05 <ihope> Well, I need to pop out for a while...
21:38:07 <_W_> not very useful computing tho
21:38:11 <_W_> wildly inefficient
21:38:45 <_W_> if you could even get something turing compatible
21:53:38 <poiuy_qwert> i have a dos program that i want to take a screenshot of, but any screenshot i take turns up black. anyone know how to fix that?
21:54:43 <lindi-> poiuy_qwert: what program are you using to take the screenshot?
21:55:06 <poiuy_qwert> ive tried Print Screen, SnagIt, and some other one...
21:55:29 <lindi-> poiuy_qwert: you mean you are not running the dos program on a dos system?
21:56:02 <lindi-> blah, then you lose :)
21:56:48 <_W_> I've not had any problem screenshotting dos screens on my ssytem
21:56:59 <_W_> using the buildt-in windows thing
21:57:50 <_W_> what kind of program is it?
21:58:17 <_W_> does it change the screen mode?
21:58:27 <pgimeno> poiuy_qwert: do you run it in a window?
21:58:29 <_W_> that'll probably snag windows
21:58:41 <_W_> try to run it in a window
21:58:45 <pgimeno> tried alt+enter to force window mode?
21:59:52 <_W_> try to change the dos options for it
22:00:12 <pgimeno> if not, you can try using DosBox
22:00:18 <poiuy_qwert> and i went to preferences and it said it was in window mode
22:00:42 <SimonRC> you can't run a graphical dos program in a window
22:01:12 <lindi-> SimonRC: well, you can fix it to use SDL
22:01:42 <pgimeno> with DosBox you can, http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/
22:02:37 <SimonRC> ok, last time I tried to find a way to do it, I didn;t find one
22:02:51 <lindi-> SimonRC: what program did you try to port?
22:03:09 <SimonRC> I wasn;t porting it, just running it
22:03:27 <lindi-> SimonRC: well that "fix" includes things people usually call "porting"
22:03:35 <SimonRC> who was talking about porting things?
22:03:59 <SimonRC> I didn;t say I had sourcew
22:04:21 <lindi-> SimonRC: blah proprietary crap then :(
22:04:36 <lindi-> that'll limit your options indeed
22:04:57 <SimonRC> _The Incredible Machine_ is not crap.
22:05:30 <_W_> SimonRC, you tried Armadillo run?
22:05:46 <_W_> it's like a cross between BridgeBuilder and TIM
22:05:54 <_W_> (still "proprietary crap" tho)
22:06:17 <lindi-> SimonRC: it is when it comes to doing development for it, hard to fix anything without source :/
22:06:41 <_W_> unless you're good with fiddling with machine code/assembler/diassembled code
22:09:43 <_W_> Any of you happen to run netbeans?
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22:38:37 <_W_> I'm trying to get files to save in UTF-8
22:38:46 <_W_> java files save in it now, but nothing else
22:39:37 <SimonRC> IIRC you can right-click on anything in the source tree in Netbeans and hit update to get it check for external changes
22:40:25 <_W_> Pfizer, Inc. (stock symbol) Pacific Fruit Express Company Packet Filtering Engine
22:40:51 <_W_> yeah I found it
22:41:05 <_W_> I'm already coding java in netbeans tho, and enjoy all the refactoring and automation features
22:41:51 <_W_> would be a bit of a pain to keep two editors open when experimenting
22:42:37 <SimonRC> the trick is to use a language that doesn't need a special-editor to use sensibly
22:43:47 <_W_> I'm sure all of those could use some automation in their editing
22:44:14 <_W_> at the very least, they all benefit from search and possibly search/replace
22:44:54 <SimonRC> bah! Get a real typesystem!
22:45:37 <SimonRC> If you need an editor that turns some simple input into a more complex thing in the source code, try making the more complicated thing the official for for the source code.
22:45:47 <_W_> that's not what I need tho
22:45:59 <_W_> autocomplete for instance, is a lifesaver
22:46:11 <_W_> and no, not because the language is too verbose
22:46:15 <_W_> for class names for instance
22:46:39 <SimonRC> you're writing Java, right?
22:47:06 <_W_> when you use libraries from 100 different people, it can be a bit of a pain to type out all the package and class names
22:47:15 <SimonRC> what are you writing, BTW?
22:47:31 <_W_> right now? just experimenting with my graph language
22:47:49 <_W_> I thought I'd be perverse enough to use unicode arrow up and arrow down as operators :p
22:48:11 <SimonRC> well, this is the *ideal* time to switch the project to a better language
22:48:44 <_W_> but java is by far the language I am most familiar with generate code in and with
22:49:05 <_W_> *generating
22:49:09 <SimonRC> a great time to learn a new language, then
22:49:18 <_W_> you know of something better?
22:49:29 <_W_> or are you suggesting I compile to c or something?
22:49:48 <SimonRC> waitamo, *how* are you using Java?
22:50:29 <_W_> I am using java to read source files of my special language, and using BCEL to write out a compiled class file from that source
22:50:58 <_W_> BCEL=ByteCode Engineering Library btw
22:51:02 <SimonRC> ah, so it is written in Java and compiles to the JVM?
22:51:27 <_W_> makes it *really* easy to write a compiler
22:52:29 <SimonRC> Personally, I recognise this as fundamentally a problem of turning a datastructure into another datastructure, i.e. a pure function.
22:52:41 <SimonRC> Therefore I would attack it with Haskell.
22:53:40 <SimonRC> I might make it spit out horrible Java at the end which gets compiled without me everhaving to look at it.
22:53:54 <_W_> there are two objectives that needs to be met of course; one is to have something that is easy to compile TO, and the other, something that can easilly do the compiling to that thing
22:54:16 <SimonRC> (or I could butcher up the minijava->C compiler I have been given for my 3rd-year project)
22:54:38 <SimonRC> why do these langs have to be the same lang?
22:54:59 <_W_> they don't, it's just that the combination java->java has been the best I've experienced so far
22:55:08 <SimonRC> IIRC, there is a cross-compiler to the JVM for Haskell anyway
22:55:12 <_W_> even simpler than using bison/flex etc
22:55:32 <_W_> yes, but is it simpler to *output* haskell than jva bytecode?
22:55:37 <SimonRC> erm, they are parser-generators, not bytecode generators
22:55:47 <_W_> yes, I know, but same purpose
22:56:09 <SimonRC> what does BCEL actually *do*?
22:56:16 <_W_> it's just a model
22:56:42 <_W_> but with it, you don't have to consider syntax at all
22:56:51 <_W_> all is enforced by the model
22:57:13 <SimonRC> which part of the compiling do you use it for?
22:57:17 <_W_> just say "add an instruction to this method, that adds this and this variable"
22:57:22 <_W_> and it does that
22:58:07 <SimonRC> I could write a Haskell library to do that, though it would take me ages to make it as good as I hope BCEL is.
22:58:16 <SimonRC> y'know typecheking, and the like
22:58:47 <SimonRC> I assume anything you can persuade BCEL to output will compile correctly?
22:59:00 <_W_> BCEL *is* the compiler essentially
22:59:07 <_W_> valid bytecode is what it writes
22:59:22 <_W_> and yeah, I don't think you can get it to write bytecode that java rejects
22:59:35 <SimonRC> have you seen the JVM spec?
23:00:12 <_W_> what do you mean?
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23:00:24 <_W_> the actual spec documents? the VM?
23:00:45 <_W_> yes, the VM still has a concept of objects
23:01:24 <SimonRC> Object-Orientation-Oriented
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23:31:56 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: how do you hide your hostname?
23:32:14 <SimonRC> I have been fiddling with CVhanserv for 5 mins but I can't figure it out
23:32:47 * SimonRC wonders why nickserv can't do that
23:33:08 <SimonRC> it cloaks a fair amount fo stuff
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23:53:59 <_W_> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
23:56:40 <lindi-> SimonRC: would be nice if minijava supported input
00:22:18 <SimonRC> lindi-: waitamo, maybe you are looking at the wrong minijava
00:23:20 <SimonRC> AFAIK, the only copies are on my account and my supervisor's account at Uni
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02:22:28 <_W_> Exception in thread "Thread-8580" java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: unable to create new native thread
02:22:43 <_W_> hmm, perhaps having an unconditional fork instruction was a bit much
02:23:41 <_W_> every program has a buildt-in forkbomb, since every thread leaving a fork node has a chance of comming back to it at once
02:24:59 <ihope> main = forkIO main >> forkIO main -- a Haskell forkbomb
02:25:10 <ihope> main = forkIO main >> main -- another Haskell forkbomb
02:28:23 <_W_> I guess I can leave it in, but any node connected to a fork have to have at least four other nodes connected to it, besides the fork node
02:28:53 <_W_> that way the expected number of threads from meeting a fork node is finite
02:31:44 <_W_> actually, that isn't sufficient either
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06:08:43 <_W_> a crack attack! *giggles*
06:10:31 <pgimeno> must be one of those http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1986
06:12:41 <_W_> heh I like how they've plastered that evilbunny "watermark" on there without even removing the SA watermark
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06:13:47 <pgimeno> I believe the evilbunny "watermark" is generated in realtime
06:15:16 <pgimeno> anyway that one looks like he could be tricked with this: http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1808
06:16:03 <_W_> http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=1663 for more of the same of course
06:16:50 <_W_> pgimeno, yeah, oldie but goodie
06:18:44 <pgimeno> hahaha, love the slashdotting one
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10:29:59 <lindi-> SimonRC: i'm talking about the one mentioned in Appel's book
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14:11:09 <SimonRC> lindi-: maybe my supervisor made an implementation opf that minijava, as he also recommended appel's book
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14:33:03 <Arrogant> Finally, a working implementation of letapedis!
14:53:43 <Arrogant> I think there's something wrong with my parser
14:53:49 <Arrogant> It "found the end of the string while trying to SkipTo: StringEnd"
15:01:46 <SimonRC> You Should Have Used Parsec. ;-)
15:02:48 <Arrogant> My parser is perfectly fine. Except those frequent occasions where I find bugs and unexpected results.
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17:29:12 <lindi-> SimonRC: yep, it's the same minijava probably then. we did a minijava->sparc assembler compiler
17:29:49 <ihope> Are we STILL talking about minijava?
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19:19:59 <lindi-> ihope: i haven't seen any discussion about technical issues yet :)
19:20:15 <ihope> Technical issues... hmm?
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23:22:50 <SimonRC> our Uni's web server admin is worried: http://www.dur.ac.uk/spa/student/assessment/passlistdates/ :-D
23:32:28 * ihope changes his password
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23:56:56 <bsmntbombdood> every one thinks its a big deal that passwords could have been stolen
23:57:14 <SimonRC> becuase they use the same password everywhere>
23:58:04 <bsmntbombdood> the password is sent plaintext anyway, so they shouldn't have used an important password
00:02:49 <ihope> Just use public key crypto on top of IRC.
00:04:32 <bsmntbombdood> you would have to encrypt separatly for each member of the chan
00:04:53 <SimonRC> you have to think about replay attacks and asking-the-server-its-own-question attacks and loads more
00:04:56 <ihope> Oh, so the server isn't trusted?
00:05:15 <bsmntbombdood> Im trying to think of a way to do it with an untrusted server
00:05:22 <ihope> Replay attacks could be eliminated by a bit of challenge-response.
00:05:24 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: that's silly
00:05:42 <SimonRC> you have no proof anyone else on IRC even exists
00:08:41 <bsmntbombdood> what's the point of encrypting if you let anyone in
00:09:11 <ihope> There are private channels, you know.
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01:17:42 <lament> i HATE writing cover letters.
01:22:17 <ihope> Just write the letter P, then cover it with a coat of paint.
01:29:22 <_W_> lament, so don't lose your job, silly
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12:55:08 <SimonRC> lament: I have to agree with you there
13:49:32 <SimonRC> "< lament> i HATE writing cover letters."
13:50:50 <SimonRC> Sgeo: If you were here 24,7,52+71/400 you'd have that in scrollback :-)
13:55:34 <SimonRC> hehe: dig +short -x $(dig +short www.thepiratebay.org)
14:21:46 <Sgeo> Should I post it?
14:23:40 <Sgeo> And how did you find that?
14:37:51 <W_work> it's just the reverse dns of the ip the host resolves to
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20:26:38 <SimonRC> Sgeo: I saw it somewhere, I forget where
20:27:48 <SimonRC> if you wanted exclude people from a group, you issue each member of the group with the formula that turns the time into the channel name
20:28:00 <SimonRC> then, only those people can follow the channel as everyone moves
20:39:35 <fizzie> There's the +k channel mode, which could easily be time-varying and people wouldn't need to move all the time. Far more boring that way, I guess.
20:41:14 <ihope_> Eh, we're talking cryptographically secure here :-)
20:41:56 <fizzie> I don't see why the channel password would be any less secure than the channel _name_.
20:42:57 <fizzie> After all, it's basically a name suffix, since it's just another argument to the JOIN command.
20:43:47 <ihope_> Oh, right, +k is a password.
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02:27:39 <Sgeo> BRB all, trying the system w/o the evil ntfsprogs
02:32:23 <ihope> If there were a point thingy for killing the chat here, I'd have won the jackpot just now.
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05:49:56 <sedimin> Hm, quite fast, not as I would wish
05:50:26 <sedimin> gotta do loads of things at one time ;)
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11:56:22 <W_work> Is it easy to compile Bag into Thue, or vise versa?
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13:28:19 <ihope> I think it's not horribly hard to compile Fractran into Thue.
13:55:34 <W_work> I mean, they're very similar in operation, except that in Thue the order of the items matter
13:56:10 <W_work> which means you can't convert 666 into 232323 and have it mean the same as 222333
13:56:27 <W_work> but I've not tried, so I'm not sure if that is an obstacle or not
13:56:59 <ihope> Well, you could have some rules to scramble your primes around... then again, rules in Fractran have to work in a given order.
13:57:43 <W_work> perhaps it's not so easy after all
13:58:24 <ihope> Oh, there are ways to do it.
13:58:57 <ihope> Just have a field of stars, representing the current number.
13:59:25 <W_work> how do you check the division then?
13:59:30 <W_work> I'd imagine having a symbol per prime
13:59:41 <W_work> and just replace a set of primes with another
13:59:55 <ihope> You emit a bubble that runs through the field of stars, applying the first fraction. If it fails, go back, and undo what you've done. If it succeeds, go back, but don't undo.
14:00:06 <W_work> well that's fairly complex
14:00:23 <W_work> it's more complex than what I had imagined
14:00:44 <W_work> I mean, you're just transmuting primes, no need to care about what the product is
14:01:39 <ihope> Suppose you have ***** as your string, and you want to apply the fraction 3/5. Just stick a bubble on there to get "%*****", which turns into "***%", which turns into "***S", into "**S*", into "*S**", into "S***".
14:01:46 <W_work> the rule 15/14 for instance, says to convert 2 7 to 3 5
14:02:08 <ihope> Yes, but the 2 and the 7 might be anywhere in your string.
14:02:15 <W_work> yes I realize how you do it, but it'd be terribly slow, compared to just transmuting the primes directly; especially if you have a lot of primes
14:02:31 <W_work> but is there no simple way to sort it?
14:02:33 <ihope> I guess it's still easy enough.
14:03:05 <ihope> Just have your bubble look for a 2, and for a 7, but not necessarily next to each other.
14:03:49 <W_work> I mean, if we're talking 2*3*5*7*9*11, and we're applying the program 64/15 9/2 81/3 21/11
14:03:59 <ihope> We could use {15/14} for the bubble, and [2] and [7] for the stuff it goes through.
14:04:00 <W_work> the field of stars would be humongous
14:04:06 <W_work> and you'd be backtracking a *lot*
14:05:05 <ihope> If it finds a [2], it deletes it and turns into {15/7}, and if it finds a 7, it deletes it and turns into {15/2}, and if either of those then finds the other, it'll delete it and turn into [3][5].
14:05:52 <ihope> If it can't find an appropriate number in the whole string, it spits out the numbers it's eaten and goes back home, indicating failure in some way.
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15:43:12 <W_work> you can tell my job is interesting
15:44:15 <W_work> I'm an all-purpose programmer for a telco here in Norway
15:44:37 <W_work> but today has gone to debugging hardware
15:45:34 <W_work> my job IS actually quite interesting, I just wanted to pretend I have an excuse for my procrastination
17:10:45 <_W_> and it turned out to be a software problem after all
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18:13:36 <SimonRC> Chav n. -- A minion of Asbodeus
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08:44:23 <W_work> hmm, anyone know how to negate a value in fractan?
08:45:25 <W_work> so that a*x turns to x and x turns to a*x for some prime a where x and a is mutually prime
08:51:43 <W_work> nvm I can design around it
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09:03:51 <Keymaker> does anyone know what a windows binary file needs? does it need any header information or such, or can i just have whatever machine code there?
09:04:38 <lindi-> Keymaker: windows binary file?
09:04:50 <Keymaker> yeah, like exe or whatever it is :P
09:06:57 <lindi-> yes, those have a header in the begining
09:07:40 <Keymaker> hmm. what's the difference between .com and .exe?
09:08:18 <bsmntbombdood> http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/02/02/PE/
09:09:29 <Keymaker> i'm more interested about the old dos format
09:09:40 <Keymaker> (that'll be hopefully simpler :))
09:10:16 <Keymaker> haha, didn't thought of that X)
09:11:33 <bsmntbombdood> .com executables look like they are simpler than .exe (wikipedia)
09:12:05 <Arrogant> .com executables are not win32
09:12:11 <Keymaker> hmm, this's intersting -- i didn't know one could have a windows program that'd work both in dos and windows mode
09:12:48 <bsmntbombdood> Arrogant: "The format is still executable on many modern Windows-based platforms"
09:18:20 <Keymaker> i got an idea to make a program that'll first print almost all its code into another file, then add some new "random" code (such as printing something) to the new file, and then closing it by copying the rest from the original file
09:18:36 <W_work> there are libraries for generating PE executables I believe
09:18:58 <Keymaker> each time a new version of the program is run it produces a new one that does more random stuff than the one before did
09:19:19 <Keymaker> and i'll write this in assembly or with a hex editor
09:19:58 <Arrogant> Keymaker, just don't have a virus scanner running ;)
09:20:22 <Keymaker> what, could this affect to that? ;)
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09:21:57 <W_work> it'll probably just pop up a warning "this program is trying to update it's executable, do you want to continue?" style
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09:29:28 <W_work> com files are nice, easilly debuggable using debug
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10:05:03 <W_work> Fractran is turing complete, but is it turing complete if a valid fractran program must end? I hate relying on getting the result from the first iteration of an infinite loop
10:13:49 <Keymaker> should this piece of c work? while(i = getchar() != EOF){
10:14:05 <Keymaker> should that go until the input is eof?
10:14:36 <Arrogant> while((i = getchar()) != EOF) {
10:18:17 <Keymaker> wait.. maybe i have to try compiling the modified source first..:P
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11:56:17 <Keymaker> i wrote my own tool for changing hex values into bytes (and ignore comments). this allows me to easily rearrange code, unlike a normal hex editor
11:56:45 <Keymaker> that is, i now write the machine code in a text file and then convert it to .com with this tool
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12:03:48 <W_work> debug can move code blocks
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23:01:52 <SimonRC> No-one here is in England, are they?
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23:22:57 <_W_> I know several englishmen, I even share a flat with one
23:29:20 <_W_> s/I/No, but I/
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16:29:59 <ihope> Oh, what was that...
16:30:36 <ihope> Well, what's the shortest BF program that outputs "D"?
16:31:13 <ihope> The ASCII code is 68...
16:31:38 <ihope> That's 2*2*(1+2*2*2*2).
16:33:08 <ihope> It'd probably be more efficient to use 4*(1+4*4), so that'd be "++++[->++++<]>+[->++++<]>."
16:33:55 <ihope> Maybe it can get shorter, but this works.
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16:43:14 <_W_> can't it be brute forced?
16:45:53 <lindi-> _W_: only if you limit search to e.g. programs that halt after 10M steps
16:46:30 <_W_> but a program that outputs "D" is likely to...
16:47:48 <ihope> How long would it take to run a BF program for 10 million steps?
17:06:19 <_W_> lindi-, can't you just make a program to analyse it, and just skip over the programs that wouldn't halt in X steps? :p
17:06:50 <ihope> Just keep the loops from being weird.
17:07:02 <ihope> Or use BF-PDA. Everybody loves BF-PDA!
17:07:31 <ihope> And no, I'm still not talking about the British Fluid Power Distributors Association...
17:20:31 <lindi-> _W_: sure you can but then you might miss the program that halts in X+1 steps
17:20:54 <_W_> it was a joke...
17:21:26 <_W_> the most efficient way to analyse when an arbitrary brainfuck program halts seems to be to execute it
17:22:15 <ihope> So does this BF text generator thing have an extension thing, that tries to give you the shortest program beginning with some other program that outputs some string?
17:22:59 <ihope> Like the shortest beginning with "++++[->++++<]>+[->++++<]>" that outputs "o"?
17:30:56 <_W_> is a brainfuck "tape" infinite in both directions?
17:31:12 <_W_> ie can you start a program with <
17:31:55 <lament> _W_: there's no standard
17:32:05 <_W_> then you can
17:32:16 <lament> _W_: usually it is assumed that the tape is infinite to the right, but not to the left
17:32:22 <ihope> With some interpreters you can, and with some you can't.
17:32:46 <lament> _W_: and that no, you can't
17:32:53 <lament> at least that's the safest bet
17:33:02 <ihope> In my mind, the tape was always infinite in both directions.
17:39:04 <_W_> +>+>+>+>+>+[[[-<++>]<<]>]>+++++. aw, beaten by 7 symbols
17:39:16 <_W_> and here I thought my idea was good
17:40:05 <pgimeno> ihope: seen http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_numb.html ?
17:40:56 <_W_> +>+[[[-<++++++++>]<<]>]>++. aw, beaten by *two* symbols
17:41:19 <_W_> I'm guessing your version is the shortest ihope
17:41:55 <_W_> no wait, that's wrong
17:43:09 <ihope> Can you do betteR?
17:43:46 <lament> it's very easy to check if it's the shortest or not
17:43:58 <lament> the problem of checking can be easily discounted as trivial.
17:45:08 <ihope> So how do you know that mine's not the shortest?
17:45:33 <ihope> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants? :-)
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17:47:38 <_W_> ihope, I meant my last program was wrong
17:47:45 <_W_> it calculates 11
17:49:34 <_W_> and in fact, your program is shorter than the listed one
17:50:14 <_W_> 24 symbols, not counting the output
17:51:45 <ihope> "++++[->++++<]>+[->++++<]>" has 25 symbols.
17:52:00 <_W_> I count 24
17:52:09 <_W_> missed that lone + in there
17:53:04 <pgimeno> oh, there seems to be an entry to be corrected there
17:53:14 <_W_> confirm that +>+>+>+>+>+>+>+[[[-<++>]<<]>]> yields 255?
17:53:39 <_W_> and is shorter than the 34 symbols listed as the shortest non-wrapping program for that
17:55:06 <ihope> What does "+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+[[[-<++>]<<]>]>" do?
17:55:50 <_W_> calculate ((((((1*2+1)*2+1)*2+1)*2+1)*2+1)*2+1)*2+1
17:56:30 <ihope> That would be 255.
17:56:46 <_W_> yes, assuming I didn't misstype or missthink somewhere, and that's not actually what it does
17:56:55 <_W_> I guess I should just download an interpreter
17:57:35 <ihope> Online Encyclopaedic Database of Integer ___ ___ Sequences
17:57:41 <ihope> Fill in the blanks :-P
18:00:44 <ihope> As is, that produces OEDI__S.
18:00:46 <pgimeno> what is the number after the number of instructions? is it the maximum nesting level or the like?
18:01:01 <ihope> I think it's the number of cells used.
18:02:21 <_W_> yeah program works
18:02:27 <_W_> guess I'll edit the wiki and add my program in
18:03:35 <pgimeno> I guess it is valid to generate the value in any cell, not just the first one, and to end up having nonzero cells, and to end up having the data pointer set to anything other than zero, right?
18:04:07 <pgimeno> having nonzero cells other than the generater number, that is
18:04:41 <ihope> Or something like that.
18:05:36 <_W_> I'll have to go through the list and see what programs on the form ...(((x+1)*x+1)*x+1... are shorter than the listed ones
18:11:10 <pgimeno> hum, a requirement seems to be that the data pointer points to the cell
18:11:41 <ihope> You mean /(\+>)*\+\[\[\[-<\+\+>\]<<\]>\]>/? :-)
18:15:01 <_W_> pgimeno, yes, you should be able to just add a . to have it printed
18:15:54 <_W_> ihope, no, that'll just calculate the 2^x-1 ones
18:16:19 <_W_> the middle <++> can be <+++> for 3 for instance
18:17:37 <ihope> /(\+>)*\+\[\[\[-<\+*>\]<<\]>\]>/, then?
18:23:17 <_W_> 121 for instance, is (((3+1)*3+1)*3+1)*3+1
18:24:29 <pgimeno> I'd say \++ instead of \+*
18:25:20 <ihope> Well, what's wrong with "+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+[[[-<>]<<]>]>"? :-P
18:26:53 <_W_> and 156 is ((5+1)*5+1)*5+1
18:27:36 * ihope decides to finally go back to that Wikibook
18:27:52 <_W_> and that's all that needed update
18:27:58 <_W_> 121, 156 and 255
18:28:05 <pgimeno> is there a generator of (e.g. randomly-chosen) expressions matched by a regexp?
18:28:24 <_W_> I'm sure someone have written one in prolog
18:28:43 <_W_> or if nothing else, a compiler from regexp to a prolog generator
18:29:13 <_W_> not sure it's easy to find on the web tho, seems very niche
18:29:28 <ihope> pgimeno: I've been wondering if there's one floating around.
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18:32:22 <ihope> And the predicate says what Mr. Morton must do.
18:32:46 <ihope> Oh, hi, bsmntbombdood. We were just getting into a heated argument about Schoolhouse Rock...
18:34:27 <_W_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants#115 must surely be possible to improve
18:35:01 <_W_> ((10+1)*10+1)+4
18:35:54 <_W_> no, that's 34 symbols
18:36:00 <_W_> gotta come up with something simpler tho
18:38:06 <pgimeno> what is the point with listing >++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]> (28, 3) in 110?
18:38:29 <_W_> same happens at the wrappable 255 as well
18:38:36 <_W_> - is listed, and so is >-
18:39:24 <ihope> And with lots of other things near 255.
18:40:37 <_W_> the talk page discusses them
18:49:47 <_W_> I assume negative values are never allowed?
18:49:59 <_W_> if one has non-wrapping cells I mean
18:50:05 <_W_> s/if/even if
18:51:07 <pgimeno> that might be a controversial point but I'd say no
18:52:18 <pgimeno> one of my readers sent this for 111: +++++++[>++++<-]->[<++++>-]
18:55:04 <pgimeno> I accepted it as a solution but I can imagine it failing for some interpreters with non-wrapping check
18:58:34 <pgimeno> (for context see <http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/Minesweeper.php#Solutions>)
19:05:43 <_W_> what's the shortest program that multiplies a number by itself? ie that does x^2
19:09:07 <_W_> [[[->+>+<<]>>-]<]>[-->+<][[->+<]>] is my first attempt
19:10:56 <_W_> it'll be wrong half the time actually, only working on even numbers
19:12:23 <_W_> actually, it won't work at all :(
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19:37:46 <_W_> [[->+>+<<]>>-]<<<[>>[-<++>]<<<<]>>[->+<]>>[<<[->>+<<]>>>>]<<. fixed!
19:40:46 <ihope_> Well, to multiply A by B, you loop through moving B to C and D, then moving C to B...
19:41:05 <_W_> sure, that's /one/ way
19:41:29 <_W_> but when you program in BF, isn't the point to think outside the box?
19:42:04 <_W_> can you see how my program does it?
19:43:46 <_W_> nevermind, it doesn't pass my unit test :(
19:43:56 <_W_> I've got a > or < too much somewhere
19:44:58 <ihope_> [-<+<+>>]<[[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]<]>>[-<+>]<
19:45:55 <_W_> infinite loop
19:46:24 <_W_> dunno, tried running it
19:46:42 <_W_> on 10 (so it should output an ascii 'd')
19:46:58 <ihope_> It didn't run off the left side of the tape, did it?
19:47:17 <_W_> I started with >>>>++++++++++
19:47:22 <_W_> how much left spac edo you need?
19:47:33 <ihope_> That should be enough.
19:47:47 <_W_> yeah that's what I gathered
19:47:49 <ihope_> It needs 2 to the left and 1 to the right.
19:48:10 <ihope_> Well, we could run through it manually...
19:48:29 <_W_> let me try with 1 first; if that hangs that's easier to trace
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19:50:48 <lament> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
19:51:41 <_W_> 0,0,1*->1,1,0*->1,1*->1,0*,1,1->1,0,1*,1->1,1,0*,1->1,1*,0,1->2,0*,0,1->2*,0,0,1->run out of tape to the left, or continue moving the 2 to the left infinitely
19:52:36 <_W_> probably the later, in my implementation
19:56:24 <_W_> [->+>+<<]>[>[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]<<-]>>>
19:56:34 <_W_> that only moves to the right
19:56:44 <_W_> uses same space
19:58:20 <_W_> yeah passes test
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20:00:10 <ihope> How nice. My computer freezes up in the middle of a conversation, and it's still frozen when it's time to pack up and all that.
20:00:23 <ihope> We're going on a road trip...
20:00:45 <_W_> well, have fun
20:01:52 <ihope> Did you say that "[-<+<+>>]<[[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]<]>>[-<+>]<" went to the left forever?
20:02:16 <_W_> I think so
20:02:47 <_W_> naive trace of 1 as input at least
20:02:51 <ihope> How's that possible? Each of the inner loops has the same number of "<" as ">", so it should be balanced.
20:02:55 <_W_> that might be an edge case tho
20:03:10 <_W_> probably did something wrong somewhere then
20:03:29 <ihope> Well, it's time for me to disappear. Bye.
20:11:51 <_W_> it was one > too little
20:12:16 <_W_> [[->+>+<<]>>-]<<<[>>[-<++>]<<<<]>>[->+<]>>>[<<[->>+<<]>>>>]<< multiplies X with itself, using lots and lots of cells.
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01:51:57 <ihope> So... that road trip.
01:52:04 <ihope> I'm at the hotel and everything.
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05:24:55 <lament> http://gallery.z3.ca/d/11026-1/wuve.jpg
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10:31:58 <W_work> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matiyasevich%27s_theorem interesting reading
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18:22:26 <_W_> the math is a bit above my head, but I'm sure there's an esolang in there somewhere
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