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02:20:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SzszszszszszszsZ * uploaded "[[File:Onecompiler stdin.png]]": OneCompiler's stdin box, as opposed to interactive consoles
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08:19:50 <wib_jonas> "you need something like call/cc to interact with the world outside the stack" => I was thinking about this because of Consumer Society, and what I figured that you can restrict the system interaction functions to work only when the data stack is empty, or when the call stack is empty, or even both, but in the latter two cases the system
08:19:50 <wib_jonas> interaction functions need to use continuation passing style so they can call back to your code after they're done, sort of like in Haskell IO. but I don't know how much of that applies to Underload.
08:24:54 <wib_jonas> the problem is that if you want something like Haskell IO, your code effectively returns an algebraic data type that tells what system function to call, plus its arguments including one or more continuation arguments. but if you want to do that in something like pure untyped lambda calculus, then you'd represent the algebraic data type with a
08:24:55 <wib_jonas> simple function (a Church-encoding or whatever it's called), and then that function has the potential to run your code in the system's space.
08:25:21 <wib_jonas> Underload would be similar but worse, because you can mess with the data stack
08:27:31 <wib_jonas> admittedly this is sort of a problem with Consumer Society too, you have to make your code behave properly or else it can mess up the system
08:57:40 <wib_jonas> uh, I think I've replied to some old messages from the log
09:18:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CanonNi * New user account
09:19:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164232&oldid=164203 * CanonNi * (+195) hi
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10:46:59 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164233&oldid=164217 * HungKhanh0106 * (+0) /* Batchfile interpreters */ changed link for own impl
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11:41:27 <esolangs> [[LPTA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164234&oldid=164223 * I am islptng * (+678)
11:52:22 <esolangs> [[LPTA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164235&oldid=164234 * I am islptng * (+515)
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14:43:10 <ais523> <wib_jonas> uh, I think I've replied to some old messages from the log ← I think that too, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing – I can remember enough of the old conversation for it to be reasonable to continue it
14:43:24 <ais523> (although I guess the ideal would be to link to the previous part of the conversation so that people can refresh their memory)
14:52:15 <ais523> the logs are linked from the topic but I don't think we have a bot that reads them
14:52:48 <bongino> i mean. it certainly is expandable.
14:52:48 <ais523> HackEgo used to be able to read them a long time ago but I think that changed for some reason, I'm not sure if its replacement HackEso was ever updated to do that
14:54:39 <bongino> hm. but the website logs still work. one could link from/to website in case of teambacklogging event :p
14:57:25 <HackEso> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
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15:35:52 <HackEso> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'ls --help' for more information.
15:36:11 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '~/': No such file or directory
15:36:19 <HackEso> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'ls --help' for more information.
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15:42:22 <HackEso> `ls? No such file or directory
15:42:29 <HackEso> total 24 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jul 1 2024 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 7 0 0 440 Jul 1 2024 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Sep 1 15:42 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 22 1000 1000 4096 Dec 11 2021 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 10 0 0 4096 Nov 17 2019 lib \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jul 1 2024 lib64 \ dr-xr-xr-x 34 0 0 0 Sep 1 15:42 proc \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jul 1 2024 sbin \ dr-xr-xr-x 11 0 0 0 Sep 1 15:42 sys \ drwxrwxrw
15:42:36 <ais523> there we go, that's how you give commands multiple arguments
15:46:12 <HackEso> 🌱* \ 3 \ a.o \ a.out* \ asmbf-1.2.7/ \ banana.txt \ bef2* \ bfi* \ bin/ \ Burlesque/ \ canary \ cmd.whatis \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ detect* \ detect.c \ egel-master/ \ egel-scripts/ \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ fence.c \ foo \ he-ng.7z \ he-ng.7z.base64 \ he-ngc* \ he-ngx* \ hlu* \ JoaoDir/ \ just \ karma \ le@ \ nonoodl* \ olist.new* \ output.b \ paste/ \ pd* \ pd.c \ perlV \ pg* \ pg.cxx \ pikhqbow_tst* \ program* \ -.s \ spline \ spout \ sra* \ sr
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15:57:20 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is Myosotis.
15:57:24 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Myosotis.
15:58:42 <ais523> I'm still not entirely sure why we even have a password of the month
15:59:35 <int-e> It's traditional. :P
16:01:08 <int-e> also, these days, a test whether HackEso's repo functionality still works
16:01:12 <int-e> because it's hardly used
16:01:38 <int-e> Anyway. It serves no real purpose, it really is just something we've mostly kept up for the past 10 years.
16:03:37 <int-e> where "we" is mostly b_jonas and I these days; oerjan and shachaf were prolific potm-ers earlier on.
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16:30:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * * New user account
16:38:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164236&oldid=164232 * * (+310)
16:39:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164237&oldid=164236 * * (+0)
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17:09:17 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I meant to change that
17:10:23 <b_jonas> I'm stupid, I always forget
17:10:52 <b_jonas> I even checked tom7's blog (radar), which is the other thing I want to do on the internet at the start of each month
17:11:39 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
17:13:47 <b_jonas> well there are large gaps when nobody changed the password, but sure, "mostly kept up" is probably right
17:14:32 <int-e> b_jonas: you might actually get a small giggle out of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myosotis (unless you know what that is)
17:23:32 <shachaf> int-e: whoa, it's the password of the month!
17:23:55 <shachaf> I don't look at IRC nearly as much these days.
17:25:03 <int-e> that seems to happen a lot
17:27:23 <shachaf> I'm on the other side of the Atlantic now, though. Maybe that puts me in the channel's time zone.
17:40:27 <ais523> `as-encoding jrcxz 1f; 1f: nop
17:40:29 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `1' \ {standard input}: Error: local label `"1" (instance number 1 of a fb label)' is not defined
17:40:42 <ais523> `as-encoding jrcxz 1f; 1: nop
17:40:44 <HackEso> e3 00: jrcxz 0x2 \ 90: nop
17:41:17 <ais523> `as-encoding jecxz 1f; 1: nop
17:41:18 <HackEso> 67 e3 00: jecxz 0x3 \ 90: nop
17:41:36 <ais523> hmm, weird use of prefixes
17:41:38 <ais523> `as-encoding jcxz 1f; 1: nop
17:41:39 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: `jcxz' is not supported in 64-bit mode
17:41:57 <ais523> it would have been too silly for that one to work with a 66 prefix…
17:57:31 <int-e> yeah, "not encodable" according to Intel
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18:02:59 <int-e> Hmm, it is interesting that it uses the address size prefix.
18:05:19 <ais523> if it used the data size prefix the default size would be 32, with prefixes for 64 and 16
18:06:03 <ais523> I guess AMD wanted the default to be 64 so they used the address size logic?
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18:11:48 <int-e> ais523: Well, the choice was made by intel when they added the 32 bit mode with i386. I guess they wanted the default to be 32 bits in 32 bit mode.
18:12:26 <int-e> intel could've picked either prefix at the time, it was arbitrary
18:12:38 <ais523> ah right, a 67 prefix in 32-bit code means a 16-bit cx?
18:13:49 <int-e> AMD could've picked a different prefix for 64 bit mode but it makes sense that they didn't
18:14:02 <ais523> right, they probably want to reuse the decoder circuit
18:14:12 <int-e> it's not like jrcxz is even used much.
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18:15:51 <ais523> right – Intel suggest that it can be used at the start of a loop to skip past the end if the iteration count is 0
18:16:34 <ais523> but I think most modern compilers don't even bother trying to put the count into cx (perhaps they might use the instruction if it happens to be in cx naturally though?)
18:18:29 <int-e> What's the current state of these instructions (jcxz/loop*) being microcoded?
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18:21:36 <ais523> I believe jrcxz is fast but loop is microcoded
18:22:28 <ais523> and the reason is that if loop pagefaults on loading in the jump target, the processor doesn't have an easy way to rewind the decrement of rcx, and yet it has to rewind the decrement so that the instruction can be retried after paging the jump target in
18:22:54 <ais523> dec rcx; jnz doesn't have that problem because it can just leave the IP between the dec and the jnz, even though it parses it as a single instruction
18:25:38 <int-e> apparently the answer is... fast on AMD, slow on Intel, though j*cxz is only 2 micro-ops compared to 7 for loop and over 10 for loop(n)e
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18:26:25 <int-e> dec rcx interferes with adcx/adox
18:30:25 <int-e> (source: Agner's latency table from https://www.agner.org/optimize/)
18:39:00 <int-e> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35742570/why-is-the-loop-instruction-slow-couldnt-intel-have-implemented-it-efficiently is interesting too.
18:48:45 <esolangs> [[Che]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164238&oldid=122359 * Cameron * (+30) Made an interpreter
18:49:17 <esolangs> [[Che]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164239&oldid=164238 * Cameron * (-2) Messed up formatting
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18:50:36 <esolangs> [[Che]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164240&oldid=164239 * Cameron * (-2) Added correct tag
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19:57:45 <b_jonas> "pagefaults on loading in the jump target" => sorry what? it's always a short jump with the relative offset in the instruction itself. there's no variant where the jump target is loaded from memory.
19:59:08 <b_jonas> I can believe that it's a slow instruction, but not because of that
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20:16:39 <int-e> b_jonas: Yeah, I don't understand that either; those faults would occur when trying to fetch the next instruction after the `loop` has completed and the instruction pointer has been updated.
20:16:41 <ais523> b_jonas: the page containing the code that you're trying to might have been paged out
20:17:39 <ais523> maybe I was misinformed, or maybe there's a reason the processor couldn't jump and then subsequently fault
20:18:27 <int-e> Or does the GP actually happen *before* IP is updated?
20:18:41 <ais523> the documentation says that there's a #GP if the jump target is an impossible address, but doesn't specify a #PF if it's paged out
20:18:47 <int-e> (LOOP is actually documented to be able to cause a #GP)
20:19:15 <ais523> oh, I was looking at JRCXZ
20:19:42 <int-e> But that *shouldn't* cause an issue either; the limits in question are all available right away, while LOOP executes.
20:19:49 <ais523> but LOOP is the same, #GP if the address is not of a valid form for a code pointer, such as being above the last legal virtual address
20:20:31 <ais523> but that's different from a #PF
20:21:32 <int-e> What else is there... hardware interrupts? Surely those can wait until after the instruction is done.
20:22:41 <int-e> TBF, the #GP issue is thorny enough; it means you can't simply treat this as decrement CX followed by a conditional jump internally.
20:23:01 <ais523> the first answer on the page you linked earlier implies that after a successful jump and subsequent #PF, the processor doesn't know whether cx has already been incremented or not
20:23:14 <ais523> presumably some sort of race condition due to all the pipelining
20:23:35 <int-e> I think the #PF claim is bogus.
20:24:02 <int-e> Or maybe specific to whatever i386 did to handle the related GP issue.
20:24:33 <ais523> the second answer claims they made it slow intentionally, and speculates about the reasons
20:25:17 <int-e> The co-evolution of ISA and compilers that is also mentioned is certainly is a factor.
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20:33:30 <HackEso> cat: bin/as-encoding: No such file or directory
20:34:15 <shachaf> `as-encoding jrcxz 1f; 1: nop
20:34:17 <HackEso> e3 00: jrcxz 0x2 \ 90: nop
20:34:20 <HackEso> 0: e3 00 jrcxz 0x2 \ 2: 90 nop
20:39:00 <ais523> `as-encoding xchg eax, eax
20:39:02 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: too many memory references for `xchg'
20:39:15 <ais523> `as-encoding xchg %eax, %eax
20:39:43 <ais523> …now I'm wondering whether or not that's the most efficient way to zero the top half of %rax
20:39:47 <int-e> Heh, that Intel erratum is also weird. Notably... one of the cases where the contents of CX was supposedly unreliable was a `PUSH` instruction that underflows the stack segment.
20:40:24 <int-e> Rather than, you know, something with a `rep` prefix which would be far more understandable. Or, well, loop*.
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20:41:16 <int-e> (It could be the instruction following one of those tricky instructions of course. But it is weird.)
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20:43:37 <int-e> Oh there's also a comment saying that if you follow the pseudo-code of the LOOP* instructions, *CX is decremented unconditionally, even when #GP is raised.
20:44:17 <int-e> So the claim is getting more dubious... or well, it points towards intel doing something weird with those instructions.
20:46:12 <ais523> so Linux likes to put the stack near but not at the maximum possible usermode address – that means that the #GP should be testable by mapping the highest usermode address and trying to jump into the noncanonical space above
20:46:26 <ais523> but I'm not immediately sure how you'd determine what happened to cx, upon catching the segfault
20:47:43 <ais523> I guess you could run it in gdb (which I assume is able to look at noncanonical pointers without crashing)
20:48:09 <int-e> how much info can you extract with libsigsegv, hmm
20:50:43 <ais523> also I'm not immediately sure whether this would be sigsegv or sigbus – I never really understood the distinction
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20:58:20 <int-e> It appears that Linux doesn't allow us to map that particular page.
20:59:31 <int-e> this works fine, mmap((void *)(0x800000000000ULL - 0x2000), 0x1000, PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE | MAP_ANON | MAP_FIXED, -1, 0) but not when the 0x2000 is replaced by 0x1000
21:00:36 <ais523> and you can't get any nearer than 4096 bytes due to the page size
21:00:51 <ais523> what about if you change the config setting that normally prevents you mmapping over null?
21:01:14 <ais523> /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr
21:04:47 <ais523> unfortunately it isn't documented in the manpages, and I don't want to decompress the kernel source to check there
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21:05:06 <int-e> ais523: still denied
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21:06:26 <ais523> I wonder what the motivation for making that page unmappable is? unlike page 0, I can't immediately think of a security reason
21:06:56 <int-e> Though if we can put code at 0 and do a backwards `loop`... hmmm
21:07:34 <ais523> (IIRC the primary but not only reason you can't mmap page 0 is to ensure a #PF if the kernel tries to dereference a null pointer – presumably SMAP would catch most cases of that nowadays but the ban on low mmap is probably older)
21:07:49 <ais523> all-bits-1 is a valid address, though
21:08:13 <ais523> it's a kernel address so you can't normally access it from userspace but that doesn't fit the description of #GP in the docs
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21:23:22 <ais523> huh, apparently some x86-64s have matrix registers in addition to vector registers, now
21:23:41 <ais523> although they don't do much yet except for matrix multiplication and addition
21:24:31 <b_jonas> ais523: I think the problem is only that an instruction that both outputs to a (non-eflags) register and can jump is unusual so the pipeline isn't built to handle it. both outputting to a register and jumping are tricky super-optimized things that the pipeline handles in a complicated way, and has to be able to roll back when eg. a speculative jump fails, and the register renamer or jump handler just
21:24:37 <b_jonas> isn't built to handle this combo easily
21:25:12 <ais523> b_jonas: call/ret both jump and change rsp
21:25:20 <ais523> but I guess they're probably special-cased
21:26:34 <b_jonas> "change the config setting that normally prevents you mmapping […] /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr" => don't change that in /proc , there's a per-process setting for it
21:27:39 <ais523> ah, setarch --mmap-page-zero
21:28:01 <ais523> that automatically maps read-only zeros over null, which is not what we want
21:28:05 <b_jonas> though I'm not sure that still exist on x86_64; it's mostly for x86_32 running virtual 8086 mode
21:28:46 <ais523> it had a very promising name though!
21:29:17 <ais523> I can't see another similar setting in setarch or personality
21:30:51 <ais523> nope, can't see it there either
21:30:54 <int-e> b_jonas: meh it seemed okay to change on a single-user machine for the purpose of an experiment
21:31:01 <int-e> I changed it back, of course
21:36:53 <b_jonas> int-e: https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/capabilities.7.html CAP_SYS_RAWIO capability lets processes create memory mappings at addresses below the value specified by /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr
21:37:20 <b_jonas> or if you don't like that then create a non-root process that keeps that capability
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21:39:21 <int-e> and still no luck at 0x7ffffffff000
21:43:49 <ais523> I wonder whether maybe there's some technical limitation against mapping that address
21:44:23 <ais523> but I wouldn't expect it, given that there are plenty of other sentinel values to use, and some recent x86-64 processors on which the address is a valid normal address because there are 57 rather than 48 address bits
21:57:49 <b_jonas> I think it's just a conservative choice as an additional layer of protection against kernel bugs that would handle a zero address wrong, since zero is a convenient sentinel value even for pointers to userspace for the kernel, and in fact it's used as a special value in lots of user-facing interfaces of the kernel too
21:58:58 <b_jonas> ok, maybe that last part isn't true
21:59:35 <b_jonas> I think it's not used as a sentinel value in kernel-user interfaces, only within kernel land and within userland
22:00:37 <b_jonas> mmap without MMAP_FIXED in the flags argument takes the first argument as a hint for where to place the mapping when it's nonzero
22:09:36 <ais523> but that doesn't use 0x7ffffffff000 as a sentinel
22:09:37 <int-e> ais523: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/admin-guide/hw-vuln/rsb.rst ...this is about preventing having a call instruction at the very end of the canonical user address space, which would put a non-canonical address into the return stack buffer
22:10:07 <int-e> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/arch/x86/x86_64/mm.rst calls it a "guard page"
22:10:36 <int-e> (well, the second one is hard to misunderstand)
22:13:18 <ais523> that said, it isn't immediately clear to me why a non-canonical address in the RSB would be vulnerable
22:13:28 <ais523> it isn't like an attacker can control memory there!
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22:15:26 <ais523> maybe the issue is that the address wraps to a valid address
22:15:30 <int-e> ais523: but an attacker can control memory at 0x0
22:16:04 <int-e> yeah, some sort of wrapping would be my guess
22:16:20 <int-e> anyway, I'm not going to dig further, this is good enough for me :)
22:16:53 <int-e> (digging further would mean finding the commits surrounding this and then the accompanying LKML discussions)
22:17:54 <ais523> when you're in a guard hole, stop digging?
22:18:09 <int-e> that does sound like good advice.
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00:36:59 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164241&oldid=152599 * GUAqwq * (+109) /* Python */
00:37:20 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164242&oldid=164241 * GUAqwq * (+0) /* Python */ typo-fix :C
00:56:46 <esolangs> [[Idiomorph]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164243 * RainbowDash * (+1530) Make this
00:59:08 <esolangs> [[Idiomorph]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164244&oldid=164243 * RainbowDash * (+103) Footer
01:04:14 <esolangs> [[Idiomorph]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164245&oldid=164244 * RainbowDash * (+77) I mean I guess
01:06:28 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164246&oldid=163063 * RainbowDash * (+123) My stuff
01:54:42 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164247&oldid=91339 * GUAqwq * (+346) /* Implementations */ Python version provided
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02:30:55 <esolangs> [[Merriment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164248&oldid=164095 * AlephSquirrel * (+88) Rewrite
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03:18:15 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/15]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164249&oldid=164247 * GUAqwq * (+2) /* Python */
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07:56:08 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/25]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164250&oldid=116539 * GUAqwq * (+151) The content of Problem 25 was mis-written.
07:58:55 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/25]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164251&oldid=164250 * GUAqwq * (+109) /* Python */
08:09:56 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/25]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164252&oldid=164251 * GUAqwq * (+128) /* Pyline */
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09:32:12 <esolangs> [[Dumb BittyFish9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164253 * * (+1581) Created page with "{{wip}} {{stub}} '''[[Dumb BittyFish9+]]''' is [[esoteric programming language]] which have many languages in one ==Language overview== Dumb BittyFish9+ combines [[Dumbascii-2]], [[BittyLang]], [[Deadfish]], [[HQ9+]], and [[t a b]], adding commands and . ==Commands==
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11:45:33 <esolangs> [[LPTA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164254&oldid=164235 * I am islptng * (-1311)
11:46:27 <esolangs> [[LPTA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164255&oldid=164254 * I am islptng * (+8)
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11:50:31 <esolangs> [[LPTA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164256&oldid=164255 * I am islptng * (-53)
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14:17:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:JAYSON]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164257 * MijiGamin1 * (+119) Created page with "Generated by AI but not even a compiler to go along with it??? Are you that devoid of creativity?? -[[User:MijiGamin1]]"
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14:31:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mouse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164258 * MijiGamin1 * (+145) /* Newline */ new section
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16:15:32 <esolangs> [[Subleq extra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164259&oldid=162821 * Ilikeundertale * (-2) removed weird unicode symbol i had inserted before after seeing a unicode symbol table and just inserted it for fun
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16:23:32 <esolangs> [[Dumb BittyFish9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164260&oldid=164253 * * (+292) /* Language overview */
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16:52:38 <esolangs> [[User:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164261 * * (+499) Created page with "Hi. I'm newbie and inexperienced on esolangs.org. {| width="100%" style="border-spacing: 1em; padding: 0 0.25em; clear: both" cellpadding="0" |- valign="top" {{layout box|bg=#CEB|title=Languages List| :1:[[Dumb BittyFish9+]] ::::Combination of other esolangs for output adding ow
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18:57:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mouse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164262&oldid=164258 * Ractangle * (+192)
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21:15:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mouse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164263&oldid=164262 * Salpynx * (+368) /* Newline */ exclamation prints a newline in Mouse
21:33:50 <esolangs> [[User:Jan jelo/FizzBuzz in Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164264&oldid=150222 * Jan jelo * (+0)
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23:14:51 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164265 * RobinsAviary * (+1299) Create page
23:16:09 <esolangs> [[User:RobinsAviary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164266&oldid=158352 * RobinsAviary * (+40)
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02:11:07 <esolangs> [[Idiomorph]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164267&oldid=164245 * RainbowDash * (+174) note
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04:58:39 <zzo38> How much can a random number generator be improved if you have multiple states which you switch between, and XOR the results of one with parts of the state of the next one? (Can it be improved at all this way, or made worse? Maybe this would depend on the seed?)
05:18:24 <zzo38> I expect this does not improve the period very much, although it might not be mainly the period that you care about. However, maybe there are ways to improve it, hopefully without being too slowly
05:29:33 <zzo38> O, it might help if the periods of the original ones are distinct prime numbers
05:32:21 <zzo38> (Although, that is a different method than I described above)
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06:55:03 <strerror_r> zzo38: it could be worse due to correlations between the sub-states. For a trivial example, imagine xor-ing two identical generators together.
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08:11:38 <esolangs> [[Idiomorph]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164268&oldid=164267 * TJC games * (+45) This would have errored, so I just patched it up ^w^
08:16:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Jan jelo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164269&oldid=150712 * TJC games * (+115) /* toki pona wawa */ new section
08:16:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Jan jelo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164270&oldid=164269 * TJC games * (+3)
08:21:52 <esolangs> [[Unismall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164271 * * (+711) Created page with "{{wip}} {{lowercase}} :''Name "unismall" writes in lowercase, excluding start of proposal '' Unismall is the same [[small]], but commands is hard unicode characters. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- | style="text-align:center"| <code></code> (U+12
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12:29:40 <zemhill> web.takwin-yuzbasi: points -9.24, score 14.00, rank 43/47
13:22:41 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164272&oldid=164216 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-13) /* Turing-completness Proofs */
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16:06:32 <esolangs> [[By+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164273&oldid=155031 * Catto.4 * (+588) added and changed some stuff
16:14:33 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164274&oldid=164272 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+11) /* 2025 */
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17:43:43 <zzo38> strerror: I expected it might be (which is why I mentioned it might be worse), but I was going to XOR the bits that would not otherwise be used with the other bits of the generator that are the ones normally used, anyways.
17:58:56 <esolangs> [[BrainIf Turing-completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164275 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+3086) Created page with ":{{Back|BrainIf}} It can be shown that BrainIf is [[Turing-complete]] by translating [[Cyclic tag system]] into the language. This construction is itself based on [[brainfuck minus -]] proof due to inability to decrement the cell. Only
18:00:50 <esolangs> [[BrainIf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164276&oldid=84469 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+51)
18:01:25 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164277&oldid=164274 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+13) /* Turing-completness Proofs */
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19:13:37 <esolangs> [[THE ROARING KNIGHT CHALLENGES YOU TO A DUEL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164278 * Tommyaweosme * (+847) Created page with "THE ROARING KNIGHT CHALLENGES YOU TO A DUEL is an esolang where the Roaring Knight of deltarune challenges you to a duel. Kris's HP, Susie's HP, Ralsei's HP, and the Roaring Knight's HP are all variables with unlimited values. K
19:14:15 <esolangs> [[THE ROARING KNIGHT CHALLENGES YOU TO A DUEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164279&oldid=164278 * Tommyaweosme * (+93) /* Commands */
19:19:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * MijiGamin1 * moved [[Knife]] to [[Talk:Youraveragemanguy]]: Not an esolang, I don't know how to delete pages
20:38:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[Talk:Youraveragemanguy]] to [[Knife]] over redirect: Revert, this is classified as a joke language
20:38:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[Knife]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Talk:Youraveragemanguy]]"
20:38:57 <esolangs> [[Knife]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164284&oldid=164282 * Ractangle * (+27)
21:52:28 <esolangs> [[User:MijiGamin1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164285&oldid=162505 * MijiGamin1 * (+5) i seem to have gotten the name of the language wrong
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00:24:21 <strerror> zzo38: often RNGs don't output certain state bits because they are correlated with the output bits, so outputting them, even mixed with another RNG, might reintroduce the correlations
00:25:49 <strerror> (Some RNGs don't output bits to make it harder to reveal the internal state, mixing them back into the output may also reduce that security)
00:31:10 <strerror> Some ways of doing this might be safe, if they pass statistical tests like Diehard
00:55:58 <zzo38> Yes, I knew of that too, so it might be necessary to be careful of it. (However, for this use, cryptographic random numbers are not needed, although it should still be statistical good enough.)
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05:08:54 <esolangs> [[FooProg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164286&oldid=156404 * None1 * (+36)
05:22:46 <esolangs> [[FooProg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164287&oldid=164286 * None1 * (+64)
05:23:09 <esolangs> [[FooProg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164288&oldid=164287 * None1 * (+6) /* Interpreter */
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13:42:24 <esolangs> [[LPTA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164289&oldid=164256 * I am islptng * (+739)
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15:07:20 <esolangs> [[LPTA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164290&oldid=164289 * I am islptng * (+953)
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15:49:32 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164291&oldid=163242 * I am islptng * (+83)
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17:51:53 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164292&oldid=163342 * Hotcrystal0 * (+11)
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18:30:03 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164293&oldid=164265 * RobinsAviary * (+21)
18:30:20 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164294&oldid=164293 * RobinsAviary * (+25)
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18:41:11 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164295&oldid=164294 * RobinsAviary * (-83)
18:51:41 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164296&oldid=164295 * RobinsAviary * (+34)
19:04:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Jan jelo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164297&oldid=164270 * Jan jelo * (+9) /* toki pona li pona */
19:13:16 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164298&oldid=164296 * RobinsAviary * (+1011)
19:41:14 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164299&oldid=164298 * RobinsAviary * (+97)
19:44:32 <esolangs> [[Recs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164300&oldid=151726 * Jan jelo * (+1)
19:44:49 <esolangs> [[Deadfih]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164301&oldid=154170 * RobinsAviary * (+6)
19:47:05 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164302&oldid=164299 * RobinsAviary * (+63)
19:48:30 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164303&oldid=163865 * RobinsAviary * (+115) /* Variants of deadfish */
19:48:46 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164304&oldid=164303 * RobinsAviary * (-6) /* Variants of deadfish */
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20:03:40 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164305&oldid=164302 * RobinsAviary * (+136) /* Commands */
20:04:14 <esolangs> [[Robinfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164306&oldid=164305 * RobinsAviary * (+35) /* Example Programs */
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23:17:03 <esolangs> [[Codeglass]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164307 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+759) Created page with "Codeglass is an esolang where all variables measure the run time of the program (you can reset them though) (note: all variables start at 0 and do not increase until reset (apart from #() that starts by runing)) (note: no numbers can be used inside the
23:17:32 <esolangs> [[LPTA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164308&oldid=164290 * PkmnQ * (+22) /* Unary Addition */
23:21:33 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164309&oldid=163550 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+15) /* Esolangs */
23:22:52 <esolangs> [[Codeglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164310&oldid=164307 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+85)
23:24:50 <esolangs> [[Codeglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164311&oldid=164310 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+0)
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23:42:04 <esolangs> [[Codeglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164312&oldid=164311 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+458)
23:51:08 <esolangs> [[Codeglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164313&oldid=164312 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+155)
00:07:31 <zzo38> I read that if a program requires X time then it should require sqrt(X) memory.
00:12:36 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code/Topple 1.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164314&oldid=163809 * H33T33 * (+81)
00:19:49 <korvo> The recent results from Ryan Williams?
00:25:05 <zzo38> I forget what was their name; I mentioned the part that I remembered.
00:27:16 <korvo> No worries. Yeah, it's a big deal. The resulting program is *not* fast, so it's not something we'd practically use, but it's very cool.
00:30:54 <zzo38> I had made up a cryptographic hash algorithm some time before I read that, which has a similar property; the time requirement is the product of the input size and output size, and the memory requirement is either size (whichever one is known ahead of time), so if the input and output sizes are equal then it will be similar.
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02:10:05 <salpynx> !ztest nana_returns (-)*23>(+)*11(>>(-)*5>[-[-[(+)*9[-]>]]>](-)*23)*-1
02:10:05 <zemhill> salpynx.nana_returns: points -3.62, score 17.98, rank 24/47
02:10:48 <salpynx> !zjoust nana_returns (-)*23>(+)*11(>>(-)*5>[-[-[(+)*9[-]>]]>](-)*23)*-1
02:10:49 <zemhill> salpynx.nana_returns: points -3.62, score 17.98, rank 24/47
02:11:56 <salpynx> !ztest nana_original (-)*13>>(+)*21(>>[-[-.[(+)*21[-]>]]+>+](-)*21)*13[>[-]]
02:11:56 <zemhill> salpynx.nana_original: points -6.62, score 14.48, rank 43/47
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02:24:28 <esolangs> [[5MAT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164315&oldid=160477 * Kg583 * (+0) Fix initialization example
04:19:35 <zemhill> web.toodles: points -0.60, score 20.75, rank 19/47
04:51:35 <zemhill> web.toodles: points -0.60, score 20.75, rank 19/47 (--)
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05:27:09 <esolangs> [[Bespoke]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164316&oldid=150322 * OliveIsAWord * (+2) change comment mnemonic TERMINATE to be 10 letters
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06:15:20 <korvo> Double-checking https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44406171 for insights and getting frustrated with folks confidently misunderstanding BB relative to ZFC.
06:16:53 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
06:16:53 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 18.90, score 50.30, rank 2/47 (--)
06:17:05 <ais523> (thank you to all my BF Joust opponents for helping to find bugs in two_thirds)
06:17:22 <korvo> In *any* language of arithmetic, a statement like "BB(k) = n" is formally encoded as something like "every k-state TM that is not stuck after n+1 steps will never be stuck", or "for all k-state TMs: if the TM isn't stuck after n+1 steps then it never sticks". It's a universally-quantified implication, *not* an expansion of some arithmetic. BB is explicitly *not* a computation.
06:17:52 <korvo> Oh hey, BF joust~ Instantly brightening up my day. Or darkening down my night, whatever.
06:21:15 <ais523> hmm, there's an interesting philosophical point here in that once you've proven that all the non-terminating programs don't terminate, BB *becomes* a computation
06:21:55 <ais523> or, well, it's basically a halting oracle + a computation run over the programs that halt – e.g. the reason we know BB(5) is that we have a halting oracle for it
06:22:34 <ais523> BB(6) is interesting in that it is very likely that the value of BB(6) is beyond the range of what current computers can calculate naively, so we will need to invent some sort of compressed way to do the computation
06:24:58 <korvo> Sure. "for all k-state TMs" is exponential but finite in k. So the part that defies computation is the proof that they all fail to stick. Or, as constructed by the community, we have constructed an explicit machine which definitely doesn't have a proof of halting, and it in fact doesn't halt assuming SRP or ZFC or etc is consistent.
06:25:57 <korvo> This is where a fear of Erdös shows up. What if we literally don't have the axioms for Collatz, and thus don't have the axioms to prove that every 6- or 7-state TM (doesn't) halt? This could still be the case!
06:34:38 <ais523> oh, of course, there's definitely a point at which it becomes uncomputable
06:34:41 <ais523> we just don't know where it is yet
06:35:22 <ais523> at least, we don't know the exact location (we have upper bounds)
06:36:04 <ais523> fwiw, I have a suspicion that consistent Collatz (Feed the Chaos, Antihydra, etc.) where the multipliers are all the same, may be different from general Collatz where the multipliers can be different
06:36:33 <ais523> the latter is TC, the former isn't obviously so and in fact it isn't clear how to distinguish the programs' behaviours from randomness
06:37:53 <korvo> Sure. General Collatz may also still be somewhat algorithmic; Conway's obstruction just means that the final set of equations which generates solutions is TC.
06:38:09 <korvo> Er, *recursive, and solving recursive equations in general is TC.
06:39:23 <korvo> I'd normally dismiss this sort of thing as unevidenced, but there is one trouble that I haven't solved. We don't have a program on *any* machine which halts iff Collatz is true/false.
06:40:13 <korvo> Tao has a footnote somewhere that it's Pi₂, so some sort of tricky algorithm is required to actually check for the Collatz preconditions without leaving any gaps.
06:45:12 <korvo> I wonder whether I can make the Kirby-Paris-Harrington "hydra" game into an interesting machine. That one's independent of PA, IIRC.
06:45:58 <ais523> korvo: oh, you're talking about the specific 3n+1/2 Collatz rather than Collatz in general?
06:46:28 <korvo> ais523: Yeah. Like, the sort of programs that I could use in the BB Gauge. Standardized Collatz.
06:47:23 <ais523> right, we have a sort of double quantifier – if we interpret 3n+1/2 Collatz as a program, we're basically trying to prove that the program halts for all inputs
06:47:38 <ais523> but it's hard to see how you could detemine that by running it on all inputs, because if it doesn't halt on one of them you never find out
06:48:33 <korvo> Yep. We can somewhat rephrase it as a graph-connectivity problem; we can enumerate the nodes and check whether each one's connected. But that check is also semidecidable and might not halt.
06:50:30 <korvo> This isn't like Con(PA) or Con(ETCS), which are straightforward engineering problems. I guess I have one question about Con(ETCS) that I can take to Stack Exchange tomorrow morning.
06:51:27 <ais523> now I'm wondering how to distinguish between the collatz-like things that act like PRNGs and the collatz-like things that don't – it might not be possible
06:51:52 <ais523> but it feels like for Collatz-like problems, PRNG-style behaviour is the "default" and you need to go out of your way to make it act like, e.g., a set of counters
06:53:00 <korvo> Or at least the counters are up in the exponents, like Gödel numbering.
06:55:29 <ais523> well, when there are counters, they're in the exponents
06:55:52 <ais523> but something like Antihydra or canonical-Collatz doesn't obviously have a structure to its counter at all
06:56:35 <korvo> Oh, is Antihydra the one with the (mod 2**k) pattern? I thought it had a lovely pattern. I have a photo from a whiteboard diagram somewhere.
06:57:55 <korvo> Basically the transition diagram can always admit division by another factor of two, making two copies of the diagram which are interlinked in a very satisfying symmetry. The diagram is always extremely balanced in terms of even and odd, and also in terms of behavior (mod 4), and (mod 8), and etc.
06:58:18 <korvo> This makes it really easy to see that it "probviously" is balanced out and can't really have an excess of evens or odds.
06:58:43 <korvo> Nuts, I'm gonna turn back into a pumpkin. Have a good night.
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08:01:41 <wib_jonas> "recent results from Ryan Williams" => specifically https://eccc.weizmann.ac.il/report/2025/017/ , which I heard of from https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8680 . note that the runtime is measured on a multi-tape Turing machine.
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09:18:56 <zemhill> web.takwin-yuzbasi: points -3.90, score 18.01, rank 25/47 (+21)
09:53:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:GUAqwq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164317&oldid=162257 * GUAqwq * (-1845)
10:07:14 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164318 * GUAqwq * (+30) Created page with "[[Category:Works_in_progress]]"
10:09:19 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq/TCproof to Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164319&oldid=138289 * GUAqwq * (+20)
10:32:17 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164320&oldid=164318 * GUAqwq * (+788)
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11:05:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EnvelopingHedgehog * New user account
11:06:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164322&oldid=164237 * EnvelopingHedgehog * (+112)
11:07:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164323&oldid=164322 * EnvelopingHedgehog * (+117)
11:11:34 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164324&oldid=164321 * GUAqwq * (+702)
11:12:35 <esolangs> [[User:EnvelopingHedgehog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164325 * EnvelopingHedgehog * (+56) Created page with "Hello! I am a software developer who is also a hedgehog."
11:12:43 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164326&oldid=164324 * GUAqwq * (+8)
11:13:10 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164327&oldid=164326 * GUAqwq * (+31)
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11:27:05 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164328&oldid=164327 * GUAqwq * (+245)
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11:29:50 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164329&oldid=164328 * GUAqwq * (-2) /* Chip */
11:39:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:TrackSpan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164330 * I am islptng * (+158) Created page with ":what inspired you to make it? norworld and quantum circuitry? ~~~~"
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13:22:26 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164331&oldid=164329 * GUAqwq * (+4) /* Chip */
13:39:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:C-Hex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164332&oldid=75227 * MijiGamin1 * (+176) /* Just use GitHub */ new section
13:39:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:C-Hex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164333&oldid=164332 * MijiGamin1 * (+22) /* Just use GitHub */
13:56:41 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164334&oldid=164331 * GUAqwq * (+892) /* Inter-chip cooperation */
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14:10:51 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164335&oldid=164334 * GUAqwq * (+745) /* Inter-chip cooperation */
14:18:59 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164336&oldid=164335 * GUAqwq * (+6) /* Chip */
14:30:39 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164337&oldid=164336 * GUAqwq * (+15) /* Chip */ Trying to fix my grammar ):
14:35:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Boo!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164338 * MijiGamin1 * (+206) /* Interpreter */ new section
14:38:28 <esolangs> [[User:MijiGamin1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164339&oldid=164285 * MijiGamin1 * (+11) added new language
14:39:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:PP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164340&oldid=161339 * MijiGamin1 * (+95) added github link
14:44:21 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164341&oldid=164337 * GUAqwq * (+134) /* Inter-chip cooperation */ Tryna advance my expressions
14:45:06 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164342&oldid=164341 * GUAqwq * (+27) /* Infinite chips */
14:52:22 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164343&oldid=164342 * GUAqwq * (+207) /* Computational class */ my prediction for the computational class. Proofs are on its way~
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15:11:08 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164344&oldid=164343 * GUAqwq * (+351) /* Examples */
15:40:35 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164345&oldid=164344 * GUAqwq * (+490) /* Single run of chip */
15:41:52 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164346&oldid=164345 * GUAqwq * (+5)
15:57:04 <esolangs> [[Eezy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164347 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+763) Created page with "{{Stub}} '''Eezy''' is an esolang by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] based on [[Minsky machine]] that can be easily implemented in other esolangs ==Description== There are two unbounded nonnegative registers, initially zero, and a pointer which points to the first one: +
15:58:23 <esolangs> [[While Pointstack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164348&oldid=164212 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+6) /* Computational class */
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17:26:25 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164349&oldid=163889 * Hotcrystal0 * (+289)
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19:23:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bespoke]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164351&oldid=156406 * Hotcrystal0 * (+428)
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21:58:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ACBLOX * New user account
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22:02:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164352&oldid=164323 * ACBLOX * (+134) added my introduction :)
22:05:33 <esolangs> [[User:ACBLOX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164353 * ACBLOX * (+41) Created page with "Hi! I'm ACBLOX. I'm here cuz of truttle1."
22:26:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164354&oldid=155075 * ACBLOX * (+554) /* Weird esolang I remember using before */ new section
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23:10:52 <salpynx> !ztest thioate >(-{}>)%9([-[+]]>)*-1
23:10:52 <zemhill> salpynx.thioate: points -4.86, score 16.83, rank 33/47
23:12:34 <salpynx> !zjoust thioate >(-{}>)%9([-[+]]>)*-1
23:12:34 <zemhill> salpynx.thioate: points -4.86, score 16.83, rank 33/47
23:15:17 <salpynx> (trying to golf a minimal bfjoust strategy that does ok on the hill.)
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23:17:43 <ais523> I think that counts as fast rush by modern standards, despite the deco
23:19:20 <ais523> aww, and it beats medium by 4 cycles on one polarity on long tapes, that is incredibly close
23:19:32 <ais523> (but the same thing happens consistently on enough tape lengths to swing the result)
23:19:50 <ais523> medium doesn't care much about beating fast rush because there's hardly any of it on the hill, so I optimised for beating other strategies
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01:03:22 <esolangs> [[Codeglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164355&oldid=164313 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-153)
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01:51:15 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164356&oldid=164346 * GUAqwq * (-39) Syntax description done
01:54:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164357&oldid=164209 * GUAqwq * (+16) Add [[TrackSpan]]
02:37:21 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164358&oldid=164139 * ACBLOX * (+90)
03:04:27 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164359&oldid=163982 * Xyzzy * (+520)
03:28:35 <esolangs> [[Codeglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164360&oldid=164355 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+2)
03:30:59 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164361&oldid=164356 * GUAqwq * (+8) /* NOT */
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03:35:09 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164362&oldid=164361 * GUAqwq * (+54) /* Duplicate */
03:36:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aadenboy * moved [[MODULARBALL]] to [[User:Aadenboy/MODULARBALL]]
03:37:22 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164365&oldid=164357 * Aadenboy * (-18) /* M */ remove [[MODULARBALL]] from language list
03:52:18 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164366&oldid=148469 * GUAqwq * (+16) /* My TS Series esolangs */
03:52:31 <esolangs> [[User:GUAqwq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164367&oldid=164366 * GUAqwq * (+16) /* All my esolangs */
03:52:52 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164368&oldid=164362 * GUAqwq * (+94) /* Swap */
03:54:13 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164369&oldid=164368 * GUAqwq * (-30) /* Organizing data */
03:57:31 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164370&oldid=164369 * GUAqwq * (+67) /* NOR */
03:57:47 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164371&oldid=164370 * GUAqwq * (-9) /* Single run of chip */
03:57:55 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/bondbondbondbondbond]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164372 * Aadenboy * (+1777) Created page with "{{lowercasetitle}} '''bondbondbondbondbond'' is an esolang created by [[User:Aadenboy]], loosely based around particles. == Structure == Program starts at the decayers (<code>q</code>/<code>Q</code>). A single electron of down-spin or up-spi
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04:22:29 <zzo38> Is there a name for a pattern in programming when a unconditional relative jump uses the result of a comparison as the relative jump amount?
04:24:04 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164373&oldid=164371 * GUAqwq * (+231) /* Loop in single chip */
04:30:39 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164374&oldid=164373 * GUAqwq * (+126) categories
05:12:35 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164375&oldid=164374 * GUAqwq * (+319) /* Intra-chip tricks */
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08:11:16 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164376&oldid=164375 * GUAqwq * (-343) My bad :C. It seems to be useless. I should think twice in the future
08:32:19 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164377&oldid=164376 * GUAqwq * (+533) /* Data transportation */
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09:06:11 <ais523> !bfjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
09:06:17 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
09:06:18 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 19.93, score 52.76, rank 1/47 (+1)
09:06:42 <ais523> yay, now legitimately #1
09:07:39 <ais523> so it turns out takwin-yuzbasi was beating it via massively overfitting – the program outright recognised its decoy setup in order to skip most of its decoys
09:07:58 <ais523> so the challenge here was to change the decoy setup to something else, while still doing well against the field
09:08:59 <ais523> and that in turn meant making two_thirds less overfitted so that I could experiment with changing the decoy setups without incurring random losses as a consequence (some amount of overfitting is usually inevitable for any program that you evaluate against a hill, because you see a change improves things and it isn't obvious whether it's a "genuine" improvement or overfitting)
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09:19:38 <esolangs> [[Dumb BittyFish9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164378&oldid=164260 * * (+4115)
09:34:17 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164379&oldid=163454 * Ais523 * (+2495) /* 2025 */ what's been going on with two_thirds
09:37:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164380&oldid=164354 * Ais523 * (+401) /* Weird esolang I remember using before */ a coincidence?
09:40:32 <esolangs> [[Dumb BittyFish9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164381&oldid=164378 * * (+354) /* Examples */
09:55:40 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164382&oldid=164377 * GUAqwq * (+987) /*Data transference */
10:06:27 <esolangs> [[PureFun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164383&oldid=164114 * PrySigneToFry * (+898)
10:09:16 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164384&oldid=160070 * PrySigneToFry * (-94)
10:09:43 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164385&oldid=164384 * PrySigneToFry * (+1) Fix 2
10:14:52 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164386&oldid=164382 * GUAqwq * (+921) Turing completeness proved
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10:16:04 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164387&oldid=164386 * GUAqwq * (+0) /* Infinite chips */
10:17:00 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164388&oldid=164387 * GUAqwq * (-18)
10:19:25 <esolangs> [[Schaftenstein]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164389&oldid=163829 * PrySigneToFry * (+130)
10:21:21 <esolangs> [[TrackSpan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164390&oldid=164388 * GUAqwq * (+28)
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10:22:21 <esolangs> [[Schaftenstein]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164391&oldid=164389 * PrySigneToFry * (-13)
10:23:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:TrackSpan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164392&oldid=164330 * GUAqwq * (+163)
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11:10:11 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164393&oldid=164202 * PrySigneToFry * (+17) Nobody here now? If so then I'll add into revreS 3.
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11:16:48 <zemhill> web.three_legged_frog: points 2.40, score 22.13, rank 13/47
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13:00:41 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164394&oldid=164393 * Ractangle * (+39) /* revreS 3 */
13:02:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ractangle * moved [[Compass]] to [[Interactive Thon Language]]
13:04:41 <esolangs> [[Interactive Thon Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164397&oldid=164395 * Ractangle * (-110)
13:28:33 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164398&oldid=164394 * Tommyaweosme * (-24) /* revreS 3 */ fixed
13:28:44 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164399&oldid=164398 * Tommyaweosme * (+4) /* revreS 3 */ fixed
13:29:25 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164400&oldid=164399 * Ractangle * (+11) /* revreS 3 */
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13:52:17 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164401&oldid=163348 * Ractangle * (+518) /* Interpreter */
14:13:56 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164402&oldid=164190 * Ractangle * (+241)
14:30:12 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164403&oldid=164401 * Ractangle * (+387) /* Interpreter */
15:06:44 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164404&oldid=164402 * Ractangle * (+659)
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15:29:34 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164405&oldid=164400 * PrySigneToFry * (+12)
15:30:41 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164406&oldid=164404 * Ractangle * (+1079)
15:58:50 <esolangs> [[Dan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164407 * PrySigneToFry * (+1254) Created page with "Dan is an esoteric programming language designed by PSTF. = Overview = Dan is supposed to be Turing-complete but to be minimialized. = Original Command Table = {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command !! Meaning |- | INC x || Let x be x+1. |- | DEC x || Let x b
15:59:04 <esolangs> [[Dan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164408&oldid=164407 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
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16:06:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164409&oldid=164365 * PrySigneToFry * (+10)
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17:01:05 <zemhill> web.three_legged_frog: points 2.50, score 22.30, rank 13/47 (--)
17:52:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164410&oldid=164380 * ACBLOX * (+828)
17:54:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164411&oldid=164410 * ACBLOX * (+0)
17:59:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164412&oldid=164411 * ACBLOX * (+158)
18:01:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164413&oldid=164412 * ACBLOX * (+4)
18:02:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164414&oldid=164413 * ACBLOX * (-172)
18:02:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164415&oldid=164414 * ACBLOX * (+79)
18:02:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164416&oldid=164415 * ACBLOX * (-19)
18:03:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164417&oldid=164416 * ACBLOX * (-11)
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18:35:20 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164418&oldid=164406 * Ractangle * (+6)
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19:29:19 <esolangs> [[UNAI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164419&oldid=154353 * Ractangle * (+127)
19:29:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164420&oldid=164417 * ACBLOX * (+82)
20:33:49 <esolangs> [[Swipe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164421&oldid=164220 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+6) /* Computational class */
21:01:41 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164422&oldid=164418 * Ractangle * (-30)
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21:31:31 <esolangs> [[Codeglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164423&oldid=164360 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+18)
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21:51:25 <esolangs> [[Love]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164424 * * (+2271) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Love |author=[[User:]] |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |majorimpl=[https://sites.google.com/view/love-interpreter/love-interpreter?authuser=9] }} [[Love]] is esoteric programming language using commands <code>l</code>,<code>o</code>, <code>v</code>, and <c
21:51:50 <esolangs> [[Love]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164425&oldid=164424 * * (+0)
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21:54:47 <esolangs> [[User:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164426&oldid=164261 * * (+40)
22:00:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * * uploaded "[[File:Ignorethis 5542qqdd3 3.png]]"
22:03:20 <esolangs> [[User:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164428&oldid=164426 * * (+64)
23:42:24 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164429&oldid=164164 * Ais523 * (+1050) /* Decoy */ fast rush, large decoy counterstrategies
23:48:23 <esolangs> [[Codeglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164430&oldid=164423 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+0)
00:16:10 <esolangs> [[Vars]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164431 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+470) Created page with "Vars is a simple esolang where varibles are defined by a number which by default is zero (Note: numbers cannot be used in the code and variable number 0 is treated as empty (so you can access it (#()))) Commands: #(x) varible number x +(x) add one to var
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00:32:37 <esolangs> [[Hourglass]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164432 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+833) Created page with "Hourglass is an esolang where all variables are hourglasses with two values: top,bottom. Each action 1 is subtracted from the top and add the the bottom unless the top is 0. By default all hourglasses start with 0,0. (Note: no numbers allowed. Hourglass
00:33:19 <esolangs> [[Hourglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164433&oldid=164432 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+69)
00:33:49 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164434&oldid=164309 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+25)
00:35:17 <esolangs> [[Adders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164435&oldid=163553 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-3)
00:36:17 <esolangs> [[Vars]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164436&oldid=164431 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+69)
00:36:40 <esolangs> [[Vars]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164437&oldid=164436 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+16)
00:39:03 <esolangs> [[Vars]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164438&oldid=164437 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+38)
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01:11:19 <esolangs> [[Hourglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164439&oldid=164433 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+20)
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02:06:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164440&oldid=164226 * PrySigneToFry * (+1772)
02:12:09 <esolangs> [[Dan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164441&oldid=164408 * PrySigneToFry * (+104)
02:43:41 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Some useless code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164442&oldid=151744 * PrySigneToFry * (+30)
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06:19:34 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164443&oldid=108871 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+20)
07:13:32 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code/Topple 1.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164444&oldid=164314 * H33T33 * (-121)
08:16:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turi ip ip ip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164445&oldid=100549 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1451) /* Turing-completeness proof */ new section
08:18:35 <esolangs> [[Turi ip ip ip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164446&oldid=120324 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+166)
08:19:10 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164447&oldid=164277 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+19)
08:42:16 <esolangs> [[RifL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164448&oldid=109001 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+31)
08:45:22 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164449&oldid=163765 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+535) /* Main table */ Added brainfuck in RifL
08:45:52 <esolangs> [[RIfP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164450&oldid=133890 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+31)
09:03:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SzszszszszszszsZ * uploaded "[[File:QR-Idontknow.gif]]": See [[I don't know]].
09:07:36 <esolangs> [[File:QR-Idontknow.gif]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164452&oldid=164451 * SzszszszszszszsZ * (+25) /* Summary */
09:08:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SzszszszszszszsZ * uploaded "[[File:DM-Idontknow.gif]]": Data Matrix. See [[I don't know/Human languages]].
09:09:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SzszszszszszszsZ * uploaded "[[File:PDF-Idontknow.gif]]": PDF417 code. See [[I don't know/Human languages]].
09:12:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164455&oldid=164179 * I am islptng * (+219)
09:38:19 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164456&oldid=164385 * I am islptng * (-118)
09:39:54 <esolangs> [[Seas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164457&oldid=90665 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+519) Added TC proof
09:40:57 <esolangs> [[Seas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164458&oldid=164457 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+69)
09:41:54 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164459&oldid=164447 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+35) /* Turing-completness Proofs */
09:42:15 <esolangs> [[Seas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164460&oldid=164458 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-4) /* Computational class */
09:43:41 <esolangs> [[Bedroom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164461&oldid=93503 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+6) /* The actual commands */
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10:21:09 <zemhill> web.three_legged_frog: points 3.36, score 23.66, rank 11/47 (+2)
10:37:15 <esolangs> [[IceBox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164462&oldid=163575 * Ractangle * (+330)
10:43:53 <esolangs> [[BitBrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164463&oldid=120666 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1) /* BitBrain-S */
10:44:05 <esolangs> [[BitBrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164464&oldid=164463 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+5) /* Computational class */
10:44:42 <esolangs> [[BitBrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164465&oldid=164464 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+7)
10:59:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SzszszszszszszsZ * uploaded "[[File:Hue.png]]": Hexahue. See [[I don't know/Human languages]].
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11:29:58 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164467&oldid=161276 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Python intepreters */ wait a minute
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11:44:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * SzszszszszszszsZ * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Hue.png]]": 10x bigger
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12:14:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Utopia Divine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164469 * GUAqwq * (+106) Created page with "What a romance concept! --~~~~"
12:20:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Utopia Divine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164470&oldid=164469 * GUAqwq * (+1) omg typo ):
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13:20:42 <int-e> . o O ( Nobody told me that Pipe Push has post-game puzzles... gah, I thought I had a chance to actually finish it ;-) )
13:20:58 <int-e> *Pipe Push Paradise
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14:36:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Microcode * New user account
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14:51:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164471&oldid=164352 * Microcode * (+179) /* Introductions */
14:54:35 <esolangs> [[User:Microcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164472 * Microcode * (+87) Created page with "Hello, world! I'm interested in the design and implementation of programming languages."
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15:22:15 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164473&oldid=164459 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+109) /* TODO list */
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16:15:21 <esolangs> [[Love]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164474&oldid=164425 * * (+1780) /* Examples */
16:18:58 <b_jonas> int-e: does it have third party modded puzzles?
16:19:43 <b_jonas> because that's the evil part with Patrick's Parabox, even after you 100% the challenge levels at the end and you think you're done there are mods
16:21:08 <int-e> b_jonas: I don't think so. I did get that experience with Recursed though.
16:22:24 <int-e> (For Recursed there's this, https://recursed-ice-palace.github.io/downloads/ ...just a few extra puzzles. But I never managed to solve them all :P)
16:23:45 <int-e> Pipe Push Paradise is one of those games where the puzzles aren't really separate from the main world, so making more puzzles would be rather invasive.
16:24:39 <int-e> they are isolated though; there are enclosures that you walk into
16:44:13 <esolangs> [[StackBit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164475&oldid=158563 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+312) Added Reversible StackBit
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16:57:57 <esolangs> [[Seas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164476&oldid=164460 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-39) /* Computational class */
16:58:11 <esolangs> [[StackBit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164477&oldid=164475 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+7) /* Reversible StackBit */
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17:35:50 <b_jonas> the nice part of Patrick's Parabox is that it's organized in a way that has four natural stopping points: any%, all non-hard levels in the main area, all levels in the main area, and 100%. but only the last two of those actually matter, because anyone who is in danger of getting hooked to the game and can't stop would never stop at the first two points.
17:36:26 <b_jonas> that said, though I personally solved almost none of the postgame levels, I've seen several other players who got the 100%, so it's definitely an achievable goal and a good stopping point
17:45:17 <zzo38> I like Hero Hearts that you can try to solve the puzzles in any order, and the levels are independent from each other (although they do have an order, you do not have to do them in order). (Some other games are like that too, such as a tsume shogi game I have played; there are more than one but I played one which I like)
17:53:13 <esolangs> [[Yea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164478&oldid=102720 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-593) /* Description */ Working on a newer version
17:57:39 <esolangs> [[Yea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164479&oldid=164478 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+0) /* Description */
17:58:28 <esolangs> [[Yea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164480&oldid=164479 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+0) /* Description */
18:26:55 <esolangs> [[Collern]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164481 * Dmiz * (+3164) Created page with "Collern is a esolang created by user ~~~ in 5 days <br> Collern mix [[Brainfuck]] and [[Thue]] into a bizarre thing <br> Collern have the commands: [ = push <br> ] = end push[ <br> & = IA => LS <br> = LS => IA <br> > = bf <br> < = bf <br> + = bf <br> - = bf <br> . = bf
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19:09:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: out of curiosity, have you played tom7's puzzle game Escape?
19:09:47 <b_jonas> it has independent levels too, so you might like it
19:34:32 <zzo38> (I had also implemented some of its features (e.g. bizarro world) in Free Hero Mesh, which might be useful in case someone wants to try to implement Escape in Free Hero Mesh (although it can also be used for other things).)
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19:46:35 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code/Topple 1.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164482&oldid=164444 * H33T33 * (+121)
19:58:44 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox/Timeline 1832]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164483&oldid=164196 * Ractangle * (+56) /* Post-Colision */
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21:47:40 <esolangs> [[Collern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164484&oldid=164481 * Dmiz * (+71)
21:50:26 <esolangs> [[Collern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164485&oldid=164484 * Dmiz * (+29)
21:52:17 <esolangs> [[Collern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164486&oldid=164485 * Dmiz * (+76)
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03:23:04 <zemhill> web.takwin-yuzbasi: points -5.05, score 17.20, rank 31/47 (+1)
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08:03:22 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164487&oldid=155787 * Ractangle * (+66) link style taken from my IT Step Collage homework!
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09:27:44 <esolangs> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164488&oldid=149398 * PkmnQ * (+53)
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11:55:18 <esolangs> [[5D Deadfish with Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164489&oldid=149060 * Gian07 * (+0)
11:56:15 <esolangs> [[5D Deadfish with Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164490&oldid=164489 * Gian07 * (-9)
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13:22:41 <esolangs> [[AEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164491&oldid=135929 * Pro465 * (+39) /* Some Examples */ add quine
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14:58:45 <esolangs> [[Underload/a interpreter in scheme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164492&oldid=150188 * MijiGamin1 * (+1) minor grammar change
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16:26:32 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164493&oldid=164358 * ACBLOX * (+50)
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18:04:09 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/U]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164494&oldid=137413 * WarzokERNST135 * (-5) Just fixing a double redirect
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18:18:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:2015]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164495&oldid=46057 * MijiGamin1 * (+161) /* Interpreter */ new section
19:25:53 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164496&oldid=164487 * Ractangle * (+0)
19:32:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164497&oldid=141830 * MijiGamin1 * (+514) /* Pyramid / */ new section
19:46:02 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164498&oldid=148474 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Implementation */
20:21:00 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164499&oldid=164496 * Ractangle * (+45)
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22:50:55 <esolangs> [[User:MijiGamin1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164500&oldid=164339 * MijiGamin1 * (+64) added hyperlink and 2015
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23:49:32 <esolangs> [[CreativeScript v2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164501&oldid=136194 * RainbowDash * (+2301) total stuff
00:04:14 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164502&oldid=163179 * Myalt2334 * (+472) Updated outdated syntax, added comments section
00:06:47 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164503&oldid=164502 * Myalt2334 * (+110) /* Strings */
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02:25:19 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164504&oldid=164503 * Myalt2334 * (+5) /* Flush */
02:35:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoticode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164505 * Myalt2334 * (+185) Created page with "Okay I did NOT know [[Emo]] existed when I designed Emoticode. They did it better I think, but I abstracted I don't think they did that so I mean like at least my take was semi-original"
02:36:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoticode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164506&oldid=164505 * Myalt2334 * (+92)
03:46:05 <zzo38> How to prevent some DOS games from auto-detecting the sound card (in case I want to use the PC speaker instead)? (Many games include an option, but some don't. Additionally, while some have a separate option for music and for sound effects, some have only one option which affects both.)
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06:13:14 <esolangs> [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164507&oldid=164491 * Pro465 * (-4) /* Quine */ shorten quine
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07:04:35 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
07:04:36 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 21.10, score 55.95, rank 1/47 (--)
07:06:29 <ais523> it is ridiculous that the optimisation goals now include "making your decoy setup harder to recognise"
07:07:27 <ais523> but this nonetheless has helped avoid me overfitting – takwin-yuzbasi is trying to special-case against two_thirds and previously I was defeating that by modifying details of the decoys to reverse the special case, getting an arbitrary advantage
07:08:03 <ais523> but that just leads to a sequence of repeatedly flipping checks, so now the decoy setup is designed to be neutral in terms of recognisability and I went and got the win back by improving other cases instead
07:08:34 <ais523> (with the consequence that two_thirds is doing even better against the field generally, with the exception of space_elevator which naturally beats some of the new cases but is still beaten by the old ones)
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07:18:58 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164508&oldid=164499 * Ractangle * (-21)
07:20:11 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164509&oldid=164508 * Ractangle * (+0)
07:20:31 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164510&oldid=164509 * Ractangle * (-28)
07:27:03 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
07:27:03 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 21.14, score 56.19, rank 1/47 (--)
07:29:08 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164511&oldid=164498 * Ractangle * (-730) /* Implementation */
07:29:32 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164512&oldid=164379 * Ais523 * (+267) /* 2025 */ one more special case in two_thirds
07:31:41 <ais523> really, any program can be beaten by overfitting to it specifically, but the hope is to make two_thirds hard enough to overfit against that any program that attempts to do so will get knocked off the hill by the programs it isn't overfit against
07:32:56 <ais523> the interesting thing is that takwin-yuzbasi is generally good against two_third's strategy in addition to the overfitting to the decoy setup, which is healthy as it just helps to add to the massively complex rock-paper-scissors that is the hill
07:33:43 <ais523> or, hmm, two_thirds ends with a plural noun but it is a name, so technically singular, so maybe it should be two_thirds's?
07:35:30 <ais523> many programs nowadays aim to win on some ranges of tape lengths and intentionally sacrifice the others against certain strategies (e.g. the "skip to cell 18 or so if you don't see any decoys early" strategy, which helps a lot against programs that set a lot of decoys and doesn't sacrifice too much against programs that set few)
07:36:40 <ais523> but, you can counter that using strategies that, e.g., assume the tape length is even (because that gives you enough speed to beat the decoy-skippers on long even tape lengths, but they lose on all the shorter tape lengths, so you win the short tapes and half of the long ones = more than 50%)
07:37:07 <ais523> on this reasoning, you would expect takwin-yuzbasi to do very well against medium, and indeed it does
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10:17:28 <esolangs> [[LongJump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164513 * None1 * (+1059) Created page with "'''LongJump''' is a 2D [[fungeoid]] invented by [[User:None1]]. ==Memory== It has 2 unbounded signed accumulators: A and B, both initialized with 0. ==Grid== A [[Nopfunge]]-styled grid is used. Both line numbers and column numbers are 0-indexed. Execution starts at (0,0)
10:19:50 <esolangs> [[LongJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164514&oldid=164513 * None1 * (+90) /* XKCD Random Number */
10:20:07 <esolangs> [[LongJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164515&oldid=164514 * None1 * (+2) /* XKCD Random Number */
10:20:26 <esolangs> [[LongJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164516&oldid=164515 * None1 * (+20) /* Commands */
10:21:07 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164517&oldid=160481 * None1 * (+3) /* Staples */ Change to H3
10:21:18 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164518&oldid=164517 * None1 * (+2) /* Stats */
10:21:53 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164519&oldid=164518 * None1 * (+6) /* Program */
10:22:05 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164520&oldid=164519 * None1 * (+2) /* Program */
10:22:34 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164521&oldid=164520 * None1 * (+167) /* Length */
10:24:43 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164522&oldid=164409 * None1 * (+15) /* L */
10:26:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164523&oldid=140357 * None1 * (+462) /* Unknown languages */ new section
10:26:42 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164524&oldid=164070 * None1 * (+71)
10:28:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164525&oldid=163282 * None1 * (+350)
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12:56:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Birchb1024 * New user account
13:03:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164526&oldid=164471 * Birchb1024 * (+210)
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13:56:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164527&oldid=164525 * Ais523 * (+519) /* Can you prove computational class for esolang LongJump? */ the language specification is missing an important detail
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14:42:51 <ais523> OK, so I finally found documentation on how x86alike memory ordering actually works: https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pes20/weakmemory/cacm.pdf
14:43:45 <ais523> from a C++ memory model point of view, the "default" memory ordering for ordinary instructions seems to be acquire-release, but unlocked RMW instructions aren't atomic in the sense that things can happen between the acquire and release (this is one of the main reasons to lock – the other reason is for if you need sequential consistency)
14:53:07 <esolangs> [[User:/nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164528&oldid=163225 * Qawtykit * (+71)
15:07:53 <ais523> (to clarify: reads acquire and writes release, they don't both do both)
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15:17:03 <strerror> I was told long ago that acquire-release was invented to describe what architectures like x86 were already doing.
15:18:46 <strerror> (And other archs which didn't default to acquire-release, like Power, followed suit or died out.)
15:19:30 <ais523> it's a bit complicated – some architectures have explicit "acquire" and "release" prefixes/bits, and there's the "consume" memory order which matches what weakly ordered processors do but has proven hard to specify and work with
15:19:48 <ais523> I suspect that the memory models and processors influenced each other
15:31:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CCigC * New user account
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15:39:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164529&oldid=164526 * CCigC * (+164)
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16:02:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164530&oldid=164523 * PkmnQ * (+247) /* Unknown languages */
16:04:09 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164531&oldid=164521 * PkmnQ * (-10)
16:04:46 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164532&oldid=164531 * PkmnQ * (+1) /* Esolangs.org */
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16:50:24 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/CGoL+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164533&oldid=157676 * Hotcrystal0 * (-26)
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17:35:40 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164534&oldid=164532 * Aadenboy * (-4) /* Esolangs.org */ revert back to h2
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18:48:17 <esolangs> [[DotSF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164535&oldid=160600 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+157) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the DotSF programming language on GitHub and marked the extant implementation's provenance as absent.
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20:34:10 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164536&oldid=164015 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
20:38:50 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164537&oldid=164536 * Ractangle * (+94)
20:39:31 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164538&oldid=164537 * Ractangle * (+34) /* Syntax */
20:40:46 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164539&oldid=164538 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Syntax */
21:48:52 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164540&oldid=164403 * Ractangle * (-91) /* Interpreter */
21:52:19 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164541&oldid=164540 * Ractangle * (+22) /* Interpreter */
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22:25:19 <zemhill> web.takwin-yuzbasi: points -2.95, score 18.85, rank 25/47 (+7)
22:55:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hotcrystal0/CGoL+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164542&oldid=154283 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+156)
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23:05:27 <int-e> Okay, Pipe Push Paradise game is done after 47 main puzzles, an interlude puzzle and two sets of 8 extra puzzles each. :-)
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03:44:08 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
03:44:08 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 21.21, score 56.28, rank 1/47 (--)
03:44:45 <ais523> come on, I hardly had to change anything to beat takwin-yuzbasi again – it was extremely overfitted to the decoy setup so I just made a couple of arbitrary changes
03:46:31 <ais523> (and the new decoy setup is better against the field anyway)
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04:24:59 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164543&oldid=163696 * Waso * (-2) Optimized bit flip
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05:37:42 <esolangs> [[LongJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164544&oldid=164516 * None1 * (-71)
05:38:05 <esolangs> [[LongJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164545&oldid=164544 * None1 * (-3)
05:38:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164546&oldid=164527 * None1 * (+389) /* Can you prove computational class for esolang LongJump? */
05:49:27 <zemhill> web.takwin-yuzbasi: points -1.36, score 20.06, rank 18/47 (+7)
06:28:01 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
06:28:01 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 21.00, score 55.72, rank 1/47 (--)
06:28:10 * ais523 vaguely wonders who is responsible for takwin-yuzbasi
06:29:18 <ais523> wait, I think this is the wrong version
06:30:08 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
06:30:09 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 21.40, score 56.90, rank 1/47 (--)
06:31:00 <ais523> the score has to get better every time, that's how you know you're actually improving the program rather than getting into an overfitting war
06:35:06 <ais523> (as a summary of what I think is happening: takwin-yuzbasi's strategy should beat two_thirds half the time and lose to it half the time on long tapes, and should lose on more than half the medium-short tapes – but it's winning the medium-short tapes by setting decoys that happen to clash with two_thirds' in exactly the right way to throw off the synchronization, which can be defeated by just changing the size of the decoys)
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07:12:43 <ais523> !ztest waterfall3 http://nethack4.org/pastebin/waterfall3.bfjoust
07:12:44 <zemhill> ais523.waterfall3: points -10.02, score 12.66, rank 47/47
07:12:52 <ais523> that used to be a beat-every-program winner, IIRC
07:13:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if there were any others, apart from waterfall3 and two_thirds
07:13:54 <ais523> but it's amazing how far the strategy has come on since 2011
07:14:26 <ais523> !ztest vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127.(-+)*50000
07:14:26 <zemhill> ais523.vibration_fool_faster: points -11.67, score 11.25, rank 47/47
07:15:36 <ais523> !ztest jix_wiggle3 http://ais523.me.uk/esolangs/bfjoust/codu-archive/48730c91ec77-jix_wiggle3.modern-syntax.txt
07:15:36 <zemhill> ais523.jix_wiggle3: points -10.14, score 12.17, rank 47/47
07:16:29 <ais523> the other amazing thing is how GregorR's sucralose_philip, a program from 2011, is still doing just fine in the present hill and is in the top half of programs, even though other top programs from that time stand no chance nowadays
07:16:53 <ais523> (it hasn't been on the hill all that time, I put it back semi-recently)
07:17:54 <ais523> ah, space_elevator is also doing well on the hill and the original version was from 2011, although I'm not sure whether it's still the same program that it was back then
07:19:25 <ais523> and ais523_slowpoke (2011) is still on the hill, just about, and ais523_omnipotence (2013) is in the top half (that must surely be the longest-surviving defensive program)
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08:57:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164547&oldid=164529 * CCigC * (+2)
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10:13:15 <esolangs> [[DotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164548&oldid=164535 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+361) Amended an orthographic mistake and improved the formatting of code fragments.
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11:23:19 <ais523> !zjoust backstop2 http://nethack4.org/pastebin/backstop2.bfjoust
11:23:20 <zemhill> ais523.backstop2: points 17.79, score 46.44, rank 2/47 (--)
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13:43:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MAGICICRON * New user account
13:46:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheGablatirel * New user account
14:46:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164549&oldid=164547 * TheGablatirel * (+198) /* Introductions */
14:47:34 <esolangs> [[Free Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164550&oldid=157478 * TheGablatirel * (+96)
14:48:28 <esolangs> [[User:TheGablatirel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164551 * TheGablatirel * (+16) Created page with "hi im gablatirel"
14:48:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:TheGablatirel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164552 * TheGablatirel * (+48) Created page with "I CAN CREATE PAGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11"
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17:40:46 <korvo> Hello and goodbye. Aloha, I suppose.
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17:57:18 <fizzie> Well, that's new; spikes of ~15 reqs/s on logs.esolangs.org this time: https://zem.fi/tmp/qps.png
17:59:21 <fizzie> There aren't even that many pages on there, how can someone spend so long crawling over it.
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18:04:46 <esolangs> [[Place]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164553&oldid=162003 * Qawtykit * (+1)
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20:05:25 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164554&oldid=164405 * Ractangle * (+11) /* revreS 1 */
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23:37:47 <zemhill> web.takwin-yuzbasi: points -1.17, score 20.07, rank 18/47 (+2)
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03:59:44 <zemhill> web.three_legged_frog: points 3.93, score 24.50, rank 10/47 (--)
04:00:21 <zemhill> web.three_legged_frog: points 3.93, score 24.50, rank 10/47 (--)
04:02:41 <zemhill> web.three_legged_frog: points 4.02, score 24.59, rank 10/47 (--)
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08:25:55 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164555&oldid=164541 * Ractangle * (-289) /* computational class */
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10:55:12 <esolangs> [[Esolangs.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164556&oldid=147998 * None1 * (+28) /* Format */
10:55:22 <esolangs> [[Esolangs.org]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164557&oldid=164556 * None1 * (+1) /* Format */
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11:14:46 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164558&oldid=164554 * None1 * (+16) /* Server 2 */
11:16:00 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164559&oldid=164558 * None1 * (+16) /* revreS 3 */
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13:24:00 <esolangs> [[U (Ractangle)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164560&oldid=164511 * MijiGamin1 * (+0) fixed a variety of typos
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14:47:16 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
14:47:17 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 21.36, score 56.74, rank 1/47 (--)
14:48:04 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
14:48:05 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 21.50, score 57.08, rank 1/47 (--)
16:21:18 <esolangs> [[Esolangs.org]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164561&oldid=164557 * Aadenboy * (-2)
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17:25:03 <ais523> a thought I had recently: basically all the problems memory allocators have happen as a consequence of not knowing free order
17:25:29 <ais523> which means that you can end up with fragmented memory if allocations that are freed early and allocations that are freed late end up next to each other
17:26:17 <ais523> if allocators could pack together their allocations in such a way that all the allocations in a particular page were freed at the same time, it would allow them to do all sorts of fancy things without wasting memory
17:27:29 <ais523> (e.g. constantly rotating virtual addresses so that use-after-free and double-freewere deterministically detectable, or reserving pages for objects of a particular type, which gives both performance security benefits)
17:28:34 <ais523> * both performance and security benefits
17:29:13 <ais523> but I've got a bit stuck in working out to what extent programs would be able to actually work out what the free order would be – in many cases it's easy, but for some (e.g. optimisation algorithms which are doing matches-and-rewrites on subtrees) it is much harder
17:30:47 <ais523> it feels like, in the cases where free order is unknown, it should be possible to do a mix of manually compacting (via a "deep clone, then drop the original" strategy) if most of the allocations are dead, and declaring that the fragmentation doesn't matter if most of the allocations are alive, but I'm not sure that actually works and it might not be possible to infer at compile time
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17:36:40 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164562&oldid=164559 * Hotcrystal0 * (+13)
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19:46:28 <esolangs> [[Gora]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164563&oldid=138823 * Ractangle * (+662) we are going to goroshevka with this one!!!
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23:03:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wasabi134 * New user account
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23:16:51 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164564&oldid=164562 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+13)
23:19:36 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164565&oldid=164564 * Juanp32 * (+10) /* Server 7 */ hi
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23:32:41 <esolangs> [[Adders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164566&oldid=164435 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+26)
23:36:29 <esolangs> [[Vars]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164567&oldid=164438 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+43)
23:37:02 <esolangs> [[Hourglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164568&oldid=164439 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+16)
00:05:56 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164569&oldid=164565 * Hotcrystal0 * (+16)
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01:52:27 <salpynx> !ztest lycopodina_minuta >>(+)*5>(-)*9<<<(-)*128(-++-)*19(+-)*8(+--)*4(-+-)*22(--+)*28(-+-{}--+)*12(-+-)*32(+--)*20((-+-)*15{}--+)%12(-+-)*48(+--)*19(-+-)*-1
01:52:27 <zemhill> salpynx.lycopodina_minuta: points -5.33, score 16.13, rank 34/47
01:54:33 <salpynx> another experimental strategy, optimising defense only and trying to encourage opponents to run off the tape. This never moves beyond 2 cells of its flag.
01:55:27 <salpynx> !zjoust lycopodina_minuta >>(+)*5>(-)*9<<<(-)*128(-++-)*19(+-)*8(+--)*4(-+-)*22(--+)*28(-+-{}--+)*12(-+-)*32(+--)*20((-+-)*15{}--+)%12(-+-)*48(+--)*19(-+-)*-1
01:55:28 <zemhill> salpynx.lycopodina_minuta: points -5.33, score 16.13, rank 34/47
01:56:41 <salpynx> a successor to my old synanceia warrior which placed on the hill, but didn't last long.
01:58:25 <salpynx> over-optimised for the hill as usual, but since the hill makeup is pretty stable, it seems to be a good survival strategy
02:00:12 <salpynx> correction, it doesn't go beyond 3 cells from its flag
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06:30:39 <ais523> lycopodina_minuta is the first time I've seen a vibration program change strategies, but it does make sense – unlike a shudder program, a vibration program doesn't normally rely on trapping the opponent on a single cell, so changing away from vibration doesn't turn most of your wins into losses like changing away from shudder would
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07:53:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bespoke]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164570&oldid=164351 * WinslowJosiah * (+734)
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08:18:04 <esolangs> [[Trumf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164571&oldid=134009 * JIT * (+9)
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08:42:21 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164572&oldid=164569 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Server 7 */
09:20:59 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164573&oldid=164563 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Syntax */
09:21:26 <esolangs> [[Gora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164574&oldid=164573 * Ractangle * (+10) /* Syntax */
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12:25:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164575&oldid=163159 * Hotcrystal0 * (+470)
13:17:46 <strerror> ais523: for optimisation algorithms, I'd rather have a memory allocator that optimises for locality of access, not locality of deletes; if used with a single-purpose pool allocator, the free is usually cheap anyway
13:18:17 <ais523> hmm, I have the suspicion that the two goals are normally not in conflict, but maybe they are sometimes?
13:19:00 <ais523> but I was thinking about pool allocators when I wrote that – freeing in a pool allocator is cheap as long as you don't need to be able to reclaim memory from the pool to give it to a different pool
13:19:25 <ais523> if you have locality of frees, that makes it possible to reclaim the memory from the pool cheaply
13:21:18 <strerror> I'm guessing different algorithms vary widely in whether they have similar access and delete patterns. There would have to be at least one access for every delete though (and usually down from the root)
13:23:11 <ais523> another thing I noticed is that if you have algorithms that require traversing the entire data structure, it's fairly cheap to copy it as you go
13:23:55 <ais523> that has the advantages of a) allowing you to do a stop-and-copy GC without needing to actually stop, and b) potentially giving better locality for the next traversal because you can allocate the copy in traversal order, even if you added subtrees along the way
13:24:25 <ais523> I don't know whether or not it's cheaper than the traditional method of allocating subtrees you and and freeing subtrees you delete
13:26:49 <ais523> * allocating subtrees you add into the structure you're traversing
13:27:49 <strerror> Yes, though if traversing is a large part of the algorithm, it's also more efficient to store the tree in traversal order without (many) pointers
13:31:42 <strerror> I'm trying to recall specific tree algorithms I've implemented, but due to memoisation, most of them were actually dags.
13:45:17 <ais523> they're usually dags in practice for me, too
13:45:35 <ais523> but not always, e.g. C-INTERCAL's optimiser acts entirely on owned trees
13:54:33 <zemhill> web.three_legged_frog: points 3.93, score 24.49, rank 10/47 (--)
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15:01:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164576&oldid=164549 * CrSb0001 * (+288)
15:01:26 <esolangs> [[User:CrSb0001]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164577 * CrSb0001 * (+652) Created page with "I like math and programming. I'm also planning to be fairly active on here, Rosetta Code, and Wikipedia. Programming languages I can comfortably program in (non-esoteric): * Python * T-SQL * Ruby * Javascript * Lean 4 Programming languages I can comfortably pro
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15:16:29 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164578&oldid=163963 * Aadenboy * (-185)
15:16:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aadenboy * moved [[Ball Pit]] to [[User:Aadenboy/Ball Pit]]
15:17:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164581&oldid=164522 * Aadenboy * (-15) /* B */ remove [[User:Aadenboy/Ball pit|Ball pit]]
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17:06:02 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164582&oldid=164572 * Ractangle * (+610) /* Server 4 */ check out my branching
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17:08:26 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164583&oldid=164582 * Ractangle * (-185) /* Server 4 */ fixed it since it starts at the wrong entry
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17:10:10 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164584&oldid=164583 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Server 4 */ center!
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17:41:27 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1333.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
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23:14:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164585&oldid=164575 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+139)
23:21:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hotcrystal0/CGoL+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164586&oldid=164542 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+251)
23:57:42 <esolangs> [[Hourglass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164587&oldid=164568 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+256)
01:03:25 <esolangs> [[Pax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164588&oldid=8682 * Tpaefawzen * (+77) +cat
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02:20:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BEANSTASTEGOOD * New user account
02:22:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164589&oldid=164576 * BEANSTASTEGOOD * (+140)
04:47:39 <esolangs> [[Branchless Algorithms]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164590 * RainbowDash * (+5751) Save Progress
04:49:34 <esolangs> [[Branchless Algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164591&oldid=164590 * RainbowDash * (+71) Total programming
04:52:51 <esolangs> [[Branchless Algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164592&oldid=164591 * RainbowDash * (+243) See also and catagories
04:54:11 <esolangs> [[Branchless Algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164593&oldid=164592 * RainbowDash * (+4) paragraph header formatting
04:59:07 <esolangs> [[Branchless Algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164594&oldid=164593 * RainbowDash * (+113) Fix table and move stuff around
05:24:30 <esolangs> [[S*bleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164595&oldid=149200 * I am islptng * (+57)
06:25:42 <esolangs> [[S*bleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164596&oldid=164595 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-178) There was a mistake in the original description
06:36:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164597&oldid=163244 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+351) /* S*bleq */ new section
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07:24:41 <esolangs> [[Branchless Algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164598&oldid=164594 * RainbowDash * (+51)
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