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00:08:48 <esolangs> [[Teleporto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162595&oldid=162501 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+82) /* Programs */
00:13:21 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162596&oldid=162582 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+20)
00:18:21 <esolangs> [[Flash shockwave has been discontinued.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162597 * PJ11 * (+532) Created page with "[[Flash shockwave has been discontinued.]] is a joke esoteric programming language which is very gibberish and pretty much uninterpretable. ==[[Hello World]]== <pre> aueI90dsm%#oiDijij@!&#&#IO21(()=D@@ </pre> ==[[Nope.]] interpreter== <pre>
00:18:49 <esolangs> [[Flash shockwave has been discontinued.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162598&oldid=162597 * PJ11 * (+23)
00:20:07 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162599&oldid=162591 * PJ11 * (+47)
00:24:42 <esolangs> [[Flash shockwave has been discontinued.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162600&oldid=162598 * PJ11 * (+196)
00:29:26 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162601&oldid=161583 * PJ11 * (+216)
00:30:33 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162602&oldid=162601 * PJ11 * (+2)
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00:58:07 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162603&oldid=158688 * Dnm * (+403) Added Deadfish in SNOBOL
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02:30:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162604&oldid=162518 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+45) /* T */
02:31:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162605&oldid=162604 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1) /* T */
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02:50:24 <korvo> Hi! How are you? I'm about to take off for dinner, but I have a few minutes if you have questions; most other folks are asleep right now.
03:14:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Boringscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162606 * GluonVelvet * (+121) Created page with "Was looking for my esolang boring chef and this came up. Funny idea for an esolang, though as stated, completely useless."
03:15:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:Boringscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162607&oldid=162606 * GluonVelvet * (+26)
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05:07:13 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162608 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+566) Created page with "GIMME CODE is a programming language where typing stuff in code has no effect All code in GIMME CODE is comments, GIMME CODE will always ask the user for a command, when they the command it will be executed, then a tape (the state space) will be printe
05:08:13 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162609&oldid=162608 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+59)
05:08:38 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162610&oldid=162609 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+4)
05:09:21 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162611&oldid=162496 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+18)
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05:11:23 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162612&oldid=162610 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+29)
05:12:29 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162613&oldid=162612 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+47)
06:08:33 <esolangs> [[Teleporto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162614&oldid=162595 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+168)
06:09:43 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162615&oldid=162545 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+186)
06:10:27 <esolangs> [[Teleporto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162616&oldid=162614 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+23)
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09:40:01 <esolangs> [[BAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162617&oldid=151341 * Ractangle * (-28) /* Commands */
09:49:07 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162618&oldid=161754 * Ractangle * (+29)
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09:55:52 <esolangs> [[FAGI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162619&oldid=162546 * Lucaz37 * (-89)
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14:08:10 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/test]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162620&oldid=160858 * Pifrited * (+486)
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14:14:55 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162621&oldid=160737 * PJ11 * (+123) /* Implementations */
14:26:49 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162622&oldid=158905 * PJ11 * (+58) /* General languages */
14:28:23 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/collapsible 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162623 * Pifrited * (+1210) .
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15:10:54 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162624&oldid=162615 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+2) /* Teleporto */
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15:21:38 <esolangs> [[Wiredwalls]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162625 * A() * (+1476) Created page with "Wiredwalls is an esolang made by [[user:A()]]. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command !! Instruction |- | * || Turns wire on |- | i || Input |- | - || Wire |- | | || Wire |- | ^ || Branch up |- | v || Branch down |- | > || Branch Right |- | < || Branc
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16:08:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PJ11 * uploaded "[[File:Jsharp.png]]"
16:20:11 <esolangs> [[Wiredwalls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162627&oldid=162625 * A() * (-3) /* Full adder */
16:21:58 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162628 * PJ11 * (+876) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=VBasicDellExp J#}} '''VBasicDellExp J#''', also known as '''J#''',is an esolang created by [[User:PJ11]]. This is its logo. [[File:Jsharp.png|thumb|alt=@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@|JSharp logo]] ==Examples== ===[[Hello, world!]]=== <pre> base J# {
16:22:31 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp J Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162629 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:22:57 <esolangs> [[JSharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162630 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:23:19 <esolangs> [[J Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162631 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:24:05 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162632&oldid=162599 * PJ11 * (+29)
16:24:33 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162633&oldid=162628 * PJ11 * (+41)
16:25:21 <esolangs> [[VBasic DellExp JSharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162634 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:25:34 <esolangs> [[VBasic DellExp J Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162635 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:26:17 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp J]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162636 * PJ11 * (+105) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:26:34 <esolangs> [[VBasic DellExp J]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162637 * PJ11 * (+105) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:27:14 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp J-Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162638 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:27:28 <esolangs> [[VBasic DellExp J-Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162639 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:27:42 <esolangs> [[J-Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162640 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:29:54 <korvo> Trying to figure out if that many redirects is a case of failed branding or oversized ego.
16:45:15 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162641&oldid=158243 * PJ11 * (+111) /* Flash shockwave has been discontinued. */
16:47:01 <esolangs> [[Boring Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162642&oldid=160707 * GluonVelvet * (+78) /* Hello, world! in Boring Chef (no proper indentation) */
16:51:57 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162643&oldid=162633 * PJ11 * (+194)
16:52:18 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162644&oldid=162643 * PJ11 * (+0)
16:54:53 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162645&oldid=162644 * PJ11 * (+3) /* 99 bottles of beer */
16:56:39 <esolangs> [[K0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162646&oldid=162589 * PJ11 * (-10)
17:12:00 <esolangs> [[Template:Font color]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162647 * PJ11 * (+1449) Created page with "<includeonly>{{ safesubst:#if: {{{text|{{{3|}}}}}} | {{ safesubst:#if: {{{link|}}} | {{ safesubst:#ifeq: {{{link|}}} | yes | [[ {{ safesubst:#if:trim | {{{text|{{{3|}}}}}} }}|<span style="background-color:{{ safesubst:#if:trim | {{{bg|{{{2|inherit}
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17:14:52 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Font color]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162648 * PJ11 * (+30) Created page with "I imported this from Wikipedia"
17:15:29 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162649&oldid=162632 * PJ11 * (+136)
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17:48:26 <esolangs> [[Boring Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162650&oldid=162642 * GluonVelvet * (+1063) /* Operations */
17:49:58 <esolangs> [[Boring Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162651&oldid=162650 * GluonVelvet * (-28) /* Hello, world! in Boring Chef */
17:51:11 <esolangs> [[Boring Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162652&oldid=162651 * GluonVelvet * (-3)
18:13:34 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Font color]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162653&oldid=162648 * Corbin * (+474) Thanks for being honest.
18:58:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162654&oldid=162551 * Ilikeundertale * (+212)
18:58:43 <esolangs> [[Subleq extra]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162655 * Ilikeundertale * (+1056) Created page with "=='''subleq_extra'''== '''subleq_extra''' is an esolang based on [[subleq]]. it has, next to subleq, 5 extra instructions to make it more useable (hence the name extra). the instructions are the following: == instructions == * '''SUBLEQ a, b, c''' - Subtrac
19:01:22 <esolangs> [[Subleq extra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162656&oldid=162655 * Ilikeundertale * (+87) /* */
19:01:45 <esolangs> [[Subleq extra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162657&oldid=162656 * Ilikeundertale * (-23) /* subleq_extra */
19:13:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Bulletin Board]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162658&oldid=162585 * Ais523 * (+533) my thoughts
19:14:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:DigitalDetective47/WIP]]": Author request: userspace sandbox page that the user no longer needs
19:30:05 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162659&oldid=162596 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+137)
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19:58:24 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162660&oldid=162659 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+2)
20:04:17 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162661&oldid=162660 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+138)
21:20:30 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11/sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162662 * PJ11 * (+2905) Created page with "Yuij is an esolang which uses few characters. + increases the amount of the current unit by 1. - decreases the amount of the current unit by 1. | prints everything after it till there is another |. Hello World: <pre> |Hello World| </pre> Implementation (made by A
21:21:41 <esolangs> [[Yuij]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162663 * PJ11 * (+2946) Created page with "Yuij is an esolang which uses few characters. + increases the amount of the current unit by 1. - decreases the amount of the current unit by 1. | prints everything after it till there is another |. Hello World: <pre> |Hello World| </pre> Implementation (made by AI, cuz i don'
21:22:08 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162664&oldid=162662 * PJ11 * (-2873) Replaced content with "Will move to [[User:PJ11/Indev]]"
21:22:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PJ11 * moved [[User:PJ11/sandbox]] to [[User:PJ11/InDev]]: Wanna change sandbox to indev page for long esolangs
21:23:26 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162667&oldid=162665 * PJ11 * (+35)
21:26:14 <esolangs> [[Wiredwalls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162668&oldid=162627 * A() * (+267)
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22:10:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162669 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+26) Created page with "Why is this on featured???"
22:12:34 <esolangs> [[52]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162670 * A() * (+1061) Created page with "52 is very bad. Made by [[user:A()]]. It takes place on a 20 by 30 board ==Commands== # 2222 - ! - negate cell # 2522 - ( - start if cell is 1 do: # 5222 - ) - end # 2252 - > - move left (no, i did not make a mistake) # 5252 - < - move right (no, i did not make a mistake)
22:15:16 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162671&oldid=162661 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-29)
22:17:06 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162672&oldid=162671 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+29)
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22:40:07 <Guest58> I tried to go User:[myusernamehere]/Sandbox but it doesn't let me edit it
22:40:33 <Guest58> Where should I draft instead?
22:41:13 <Guest58> nvm i just wasn't logged in
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22:42:44 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162673 * Junkshipp * (+1551) Created page with "Duchathair each function is binary (2-ary), except + syntax no brackets, because arity is constant. like polish notation how to define a function example $ sum y sum x y defining a function like example allows you to use @example too. its a certa
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22:47:29 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162674 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+56) Created page with "Disfunction is a esolang that works using only functions"
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22:48:16 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162675&oldid=162674 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+11)
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23:06:14 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162676&oldid=162675 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+806)
23:14:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create2 * PJ11 * created new account User:WarzokERNST135: I want an alternative account cause of the cooler name
23:17:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162677&oldid=162654 * WarzokERNST135 * (+189) Introducing myself, so I can edit other pages without warns
23:18:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162678&oldid=162677 * WarzokERNST135 * (+17)
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23:59:26 <esolangs> [[Category:Declarative paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162679&oldid=39796 * Corbin * (+1400) Integrate Neel's concept of declarative programming, which is IME the only one that doesn't invite bikeshedding.
00:28:53 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162680&oldid=160443 * Corbin * (+73) Organize the DSLs.
00:50:44 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162681&oldid=162680 * Corbin * (+696) Write out a more detailed history and add references. Imagine my bad George Lucas impression here: "Y'know, history, it, uh, it rhymes."
00:58:14 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162682 * WarzokERNST135 * (+20) Created page with "My esolangs: [[r0q]]"
00:58:56 <esolangs> [[WarzokERNST135]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162683 * WarzokERNST135 * (+33) Redirected page to [[User:WarzokERNST135]]
01:00:09 <esolangs> [[R0q]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162684 * WarzokERNST135 * (+129) Created page with "{{lowercase}}{{WIP}} [[r0q]] is an esolang created by [[WarzokERNST135]]. <br>A list of commands can be seen at [[r0q/Commands]]."
01:07:26 <esolangs> [[R0q/Commands]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162685 * WarzokERNST135 * (+430) Created page with "{{WIP}} Commands: <br><code>Ask (x)'s value and get (y)</code>: This is like set (x) = (y) <br><code>Define a function called (x) with parameters [params] {}</code> This is like func (x)([params){} <br><code>Ask user's input and give it to (x)</code>: This ge
01:07:41 <esolangs> [[R0q/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162686&oldid=162685 * WarzokERNST135 * (+13)
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01:19:27 <esolangs> [[CHR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162687&oldid=93571 * Corbin * (+161) Infobox and categories.
01:20:50 <korvo> I'll be back for more later, but I need dinner first.
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01:52:33 <esolangs> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162688&oldid=161350 * EiroWarn * (-83) ''=''
01:53:39 <esolangs> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162689&oldid=162688 * EiroWarn * (+83) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/162688|162688]] by [[Special:Contributions/EiroWarn|EiroWarn]] ([[User talk:EiroWarn|talk]])
01:54:27 <esolangs> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162690&oldid=162689 * EiroWarn * (-83) Completely eliminated ambiguity regarding the ''='' symbol
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02:08:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162691&oldid=43222 * EiroWarn * (+235) nothing
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02:22:11 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162692&oldid=162676 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+427)
02:23:02 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162693&oldid=162692 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+15)
02:24:48 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162694&oldid=162693 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+132)
02:25:07 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162695&oldid=162694 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+14)
02:25:59 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162696&oldid=162695 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+42)
02:28:42 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162697&oldid=162696 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+110)
02:30:22 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162698&oldid=162697 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+93)
02:31:00 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162699&oldid=162611 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+16)
02:31:09 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162700&oldid=162699 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1)
02:32:18 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162701&oldid=162672 * PkmnQ * (+47) /* Programs */ Minor fixes
02:33:52 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162702&oldid=162698 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+24)
02:57:49 <esolangs> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162703&oldid=162690 * EiroWarn * (-5) Changed the page sorting and added a new interpreter (developed by me)
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04:26:52 <korvo> Nevermind. Maybe I'll do more tomorrow.
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05:57:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162704&oldid=162669 * Ractangle * (+50)
05:58:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162705&oldid=162704 * Ractangle * (+162)
06:15:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162706&oldid=162705 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+31)
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08:07:25 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162707&oldid=162286 * PKMN Trainer * (-19)
08:39:55 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162708&oldid=161222 * Dhzb * (+14)
08:40:47 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162709&oldid=162708 * Dhzb * (+0)
08:42:41 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162710&oldid=162709 * Dhzb * (-3)
08:44:04 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162711 * Dhzb * (+28) Created page with "'''Zowm''' is an [[esolang]]"
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08:51:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Zowm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162712 * AclausckintheMidLife * (+44) Created page with "what am i supposed to create in this esolang"
09:01:15 <fruits4fruits> oh and i created this esolang https://esolangs.org/wiki/Everything_is_h (is the link linking properly)
09:08:15 <int-e> the link looks fine (IRC is plain text; IRC clients often use patterns to figure out what links are and make them clickable. The only trick I associate with that is not putting punctuation right after a link. Even if you do, people will figure it out. :P)
09:17:44 <int-e> It's actually kind of unclear what the semantics are. What's a condition? If it's only `true` or `false` then the language will become rather boring, semantics wise.
09:19:48 <int-e> fruits4fruits: Also, "self-explanatory" -- it isn't because it's unclear that those aren't actually operations, but a mix of tokens and individual characters. The little code generator at the end makes this intent clearer.
09:20:45 <int-e> fruits4fruits: Can you print a " character? Are there variables?
09:21:43 <fruits4fruits> there isnt a way to declare (or call) variables (yet)
09:21:54 <int-e> I mean, you don't have to answer those questions. But we tend to look for semantics more than syntax so they come up quite naturally.
09:22:42 <int-e> Basically, "what can this do" rather than "how hard is it to read the source code"
09:23:31 <int-e> fruits4fruits: Even at the syntax level... are you allowed to use `p r i n t` as a long form of `print`?
09:23:38 <int-e> I'll leave it at that :)
09:25:00 <int-e> (I did decode the `print(source)` and the `while true do print("") end`)
09:55:33 <fruits4fruits> i dont think `p r i n t` can be used as a long form of `print`
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12:08:18 <korvo> fruits4fruits: Where are you headed? I only ask in order to understand.
12:13:51 <esolangs> [[Category:Functional paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162713&oldid=7890 * Corbin * (+1793) Write a fun little blurb covering the history. I used Backus' perspective as it is the motive for modern language design; those of us younger than Miranda were raised wholly on this paper.
12:14:08 <korvo> Hm, should clean up that page on tacit programming too.
12:14:24 <korvo> ...Wait, am I younger than Miranda? I know I'm older than Haskell.
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12:42:15 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162714&oldid=162702 * Hotcrystal0 * (+29) polishing up
12:43:58 <esolangs> [[Pointfree programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162715&oldid=138273 * Corbin * (+324) More-or-less rewrite. I saved as much as I could, including bluelinks.
12:45:41 <esolangs> [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162716&oldid=162382 * Corbin * (+28) /* APL */ We have a main article on the topic.
12:46:17 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162717&oldid=160752 * Hotcrystal0 * (+28)
12:47:40 <esolangs> [[Category:Total]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162718&oldid=160889 * Corbin * (+2) Fix heading to be consistent with other category pages.
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12:59:11 <esolangs> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162719&oldid=154288 * Corbin * (+605) Infobox, bluelinks, references.
13:00:02 <korvo> Really not a fan of the whole "non-esoteric" phrasing. As long as English WP is deletionist, it *doesn't matter* whether a language is "esoteric" enough for the wiki.
13:09:52 <esolangs> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162720&oldid=162187 * Corbin * (+348) Add APL. Trying to keep it dry. Also, awawa?
13:10:25 <korvo> I genuinely believe that this page *can* be gut-bustingly funny. It's pretty good already.
13:21:38 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162721&oldid=162543 * C++DSUCKER * (+99) Small corecrtion to the swapping algorithm
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13:56:43 <esolangs> [[CHR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162722&oldid=162687 * Corbin * (+2239) Words, references, example.
14:03:26 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162723&oldid=162711 * Dhzb * (+129)
14:04:03 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162724&oldid=162723 * Dhzb * (+16)
14:05:08 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162725&oldid=162724 * Dhzb * (+24)
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14:12:54 <esolangs> [[CHR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162726&oldid=162722 * Corbin * (+479) /* Example */ Copy another example from [[when statement]] and make the formatting match.
14:16:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162727&oldid=162712 * Dhzb * (+145)
14:23:57 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162728&oldid=162725 * Dhzb * (+185)
14:25:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162729&oldid=162727 * Dhzb * (+104)
14:26:29 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162730 * WarzokERNST135 * (+620) Created page with "{{lowercase}} [[pigs]] is an esolang created by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==Commands== <code>p</code>: Adds 10 to the current unit. <br><code>i</code>: Subtracts 1 from the current unit. <br><code>g</code>: Creates an unit and moves to it. <br><code>s</code>: Turns the cur
14:35:48 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162731&oldid=162730 * WarzokERNST135 * (-20) Fixed error
14:37:23 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162732&oldid=158873 * WarzokERNST135 * (+236) /* pigs */
14:39:47 <esolangs> [[Template:EsolangAbandoned]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162733 * WarzokERNST135 * (+87) Created page with "''This esolang has been abandoned by its owner, and it won't be changed by its owner.''"
14:40:11 <esolangs> [[R0q]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162734&oldid=162684 * WarzokERNST135 * (+13)
14:41:06 <esolangs> [[Template:EsolangAbandoned]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162735&oldid=162733 * WarzokERNST135 * (+16)
14:41:35 <esolangs> [[R0q]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162736&oldid=162734 * WarzokERNST135 * (+83)
14:41:58 <esolangs> [[R0q/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162737&oldid=162686 * WarzokERNST135 * (+96)
14:42:30 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162738&oldid=162682 * WarzokERNST135 * (+29)
14:43:43 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162739&oldid=162714 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+123)
14:44:01 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162740&oldid=162739 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+3)
14:45:28 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162741&oldid=162731 * WarzokERNST135 * (+31)
14:45:48 <esolangs> [[PIGS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162742&oldid=95336 * WarzokERNST135 * (+31)
14:50:10 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162743&oldid=162741 * WarzokERNST135 * (+191)
14:51:08 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162744&oldid=162743 * WarzokERNST135 * (+43) Added categories
14:54:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162745&oldid=162605 * WarzokERNST135 * (+83) /* P */ Added pigs
15:08:38 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162746&oldid=162744 * WarzokERNST135 * (+23)
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15:38:12 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162747 * WarzokERNST135 * (+666) Made the sequel to pigs
15:39:16 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162748&oldid=162747 * WarzokERNST135 * (+10)
15:41:16 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162749&oldid=162746 * WarzokERNST135 * (+18)
15:41:39 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162750&oldid=162748 * WarzokERNST135 * (+18)
16:09:07 <esolangs> [[Shockwave flash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162751 * WarzokERNST135 * (+940) Created page with "[[Shockwave flash]] is an [[esolang]] created by '''[[WarzokERNST135]]'''. ==Commands== <code></code>: Prints "Hello World!" <br><code>\</code>: Escape character for putting double quotes on strings and other characters. <br><code></code>: An IF statement,
16:11:23 <esolangs> [[Shockwave flash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162752&oldid=162751 * WarzokERNST135 * (+150)
16:15:52 <esolangs> [[Shockwave flash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162753&oldid=162752 * WarzokERNST135 * (+139)
16:16:50 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162754&oldid=162738 * WarzokERNST135 * (+41)
16:18:02 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162755&oldid=162754 * WarzokERNST135 * (+110)
16:18:47 <esolangs> [[Template:EsolangAbandoned]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162756&oldid=162735 * WarzokERNST135 * (-10)
16:19:52 <esolangs> [[Template:EsolangAbandoned]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162757&oldid=162756 * WarzokERNST135 * (-5)
16:19:59 <esolangs> [[R0q]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162758&oldid=162736 * WarzokERNST135 * (-78)
16:20:30 <esolangs> [[R0q/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162759&oldid=162737 * WarzokERNST135 * (-83)
16:23:25 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162760&oldid=162732 * WarzokERNST135 * (+43) /* Shockwave flash */
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16:35:59 <esolangs> [[R0q]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162761&oldid=162758 * WarzokERNST135 * (+120)
16:50:26 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162762&oldid=162645 * WarzokERNST135 * (+54)
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17:03:07 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162763&oldid=162701 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-2)
17:03:42 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162764&oldid=162763 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1)
17:07:48 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162765&oldid=162740 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+78)
17:08:48 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162766&oldid=162765 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+4)
17:20:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162767&oldid=162259 * WarzokERNST135 * (+1141) Spam test, i am not a spammer, just seeing how the sandbox acts with spam.
17:20:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162768&oldid=162767 * WarzokERNST135 * (-1141)
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17:49:17 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162769&oldid=157129 * Junkshipp * (+49)
17:50:01 <esolangs> [[Shockwave flash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162770&oldid=162753 * Stkptr * (+141)
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18:11:16 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162771&oldid=162673 * Junkshipp * (+710)
18:11:40 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162772&oldid=162771 * Junkshipp * (-2) /* Example code */
18:38:11 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162773&oldid=162772 * Junkshipp * (+11) /* Example code */
18:38:59 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162774&oldid=162773 * Junkshipp * (+14) /* Whitespace and comments */
18:41:29 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162775&oldid=162774 * Junkshipp * (-34) /* Whitespace and comments */
18:41:56 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162776&oldid=162775 * Junkshipp * (-1) /* Whitespace and comments */
18:42:20 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162777&oldid=162776 * Junkshipp * (-4) /* Whitespace and comments */
18:52:55 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162778&oldid=162750 * WarzokERNST135 * (+0)
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19:42:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]]": a) redundant to [[brainfuck]] and not really useful on its own, b) the attempts to automatically make it stay in sync are causing it to appear in categories it shouldn't be in
19:46:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162779&oldid=162678 * Ais523 * (-60444) clear down to 1 month of introductions
19:46:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (01-09-2024 to 30-06-2025)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162780 * Ais523 * (+60568) archive I'm not sure why we're archiving the anti-spam feature, but given that there are existing archives we may as well continue for the time being
19:50:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Template:Font color]]": Copyright violation: original template on Wikipedia is not public domain
19:55:26 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162781&oldid=162681 * Ais523 * (+317) [[BuzzFizz]] should be mentioned here, although it's unclear whether it goes in the DSL section or see-also section
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22:41:35 <esolangs> [[No mans fish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162782 * WarzokERNST135 * (+540) Created page with "[[No mans fish]] is an [[esolang]] made by [[WarzokERNST135]] which is derivated from [[Deadfish]]. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! No mans fish !! Meaning !! Deadfish equivalent |- | N || Increment || i |- | O || Decrement || d |- | M || Square || s |
22:44:13 <esolangs> [[No mans fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162783&oldid=162782 * WarzokERNST135 * (+59) Added deadfish interpreter
22:44:31 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162784&oldid=162755 * WarzokERNST135 * (+21)
00:07:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162785 * Hotcrystal0 * (+55) Created page with "'''12''' is an esolang created by [[User:Hotcrystal0]]."
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02:46:04 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162786&oldid=162764 * PkmnQ * (+8) /* Programs */
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04:49:47 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162787&oldid=162777 * Junkshipp * (+494)
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09:30:51 <esolangs> [[CFRS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162790&oldid=121109 * Ractangle * (+223) /* Examples */
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12:59:57 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162794&oldid=149238 * WarzokERNST135 * (+136) /* Commands */ Added No mans fish variation
13:08:45 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162795&oldid=162369 * Pifrited * (+125)
13:09:30 <esolangs> [[No mans fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162796&oldid=162783 * WarzokERNST135 * (+128)
13:14:31 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162797&oldid=162794 * WarzokERNST135 * (+52) /* Variants of deadfish */ Added No mans fish
13:18:00 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162798&oldid=162344 * PrySigneToFry * (+116)
13:26:20 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162799&oldid=154994 * WarzokERNST135 * (+43) /* Survey */ Added (piggus)
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13:45:40 <esolangs> [[Quack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162800 * WarzokERNST135 * (+520) Created page with "{{WIP}} [[Quack]] is an [[esolang]] made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==Commands== {{cd|quack}}: Starts the program. <br>{{cd|kcauq}}: Ends the program. <br>{{cd|caukq}}: Starts a loop, until the pointer's value reaches 0. <br>{{cd|kaucq}}: Ends a loop. <br>{{cd|cuaqk}}:
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13:46:05 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162801&oldid=162784 * WarzokERNST135 * (+14)
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13:47:51 <esolangs> [[Titin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162803&oldid=150056 * PrySigneToFry * (+9)
13:54:29 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135/Hydrogen monoxide]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162804 * WarzokERNST135 * (+300) Hydrogen monoxide
13:56:51 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135/Hydrogen monoxide/Cube]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162805 * WarzokERNST135 * (+168) Created page with "How did you get here? ==3== Code some more <pre> if (you found this through the recent changes){ say "ok that's normal" } else { say "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" } </pre>"
13:59:28 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135/]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162806 * WarzokERNST135 * (+80) Redirected page to [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]]
14:02:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162807&oldid=162802 * WarzokERNST135 * (+165) /* Commands */
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14:08:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:/nil]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162809 * WarzokERNST135 * (+235) Created page with "[[User talk:/nil]] is as weird as [[User:/nil]] but it also allows you to create MORE programming languages using this prefix: '''User talk:/nil/(PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE HERE)''' Also this esolang also has the commands of [[User:/nil]]."
14:20:08 <esolangs> [[Template:FontColor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162810 * WarzokERNST135 * (+146) I made this by hand.
14:20:53 <esolangs> [[Template talk:FontColor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162811 * WarzokERNST135 * (+106) Created page with "If you say I took this from Wikipedia, compare it to Wikipedia's version. It's different from this version"
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14:39:23 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162813&oldid=162795 * Pifrited * (+1260)
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15:01:20 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162815&oldid=162787 * Junkshipp * (+746) /* Syntax */
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16:33:09 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162817&oldid=162778 * Corbin * (-22) This is an output-only language, so not TC; fixing categories. A [[trivial brainfuck substitution]] would go in the other direction to inherit BF's TC-ness.
16:33:50 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162818&oldid=162799 * Corbin * (-42) /* Survey */ Remove non-TC language.
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17:28:04 <esolangs> [[Subleq extra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162820&oldid=162657 * Ilikeundertale * (-87) removed nonexistant cagetories i added without knowing they dont exist
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18:05:45 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162822&oldid=162818 * Corbin * (+2392) Start structuring the list to reduce vanity tagging. Combinators are an easy first target.
18:05:59 <korvo> ...I need to actually compute Iota's rank now.
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18:50:52 <esolangs> [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162823&oldid=159787 * Corbin * (+634) /* Semantics */ Hack out a justifiable single-combinator basis; unify grammar somewhat.
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19:02:25 <korvo> I think I can do a bit better. iota of K is precisely S, so ι K x y z = S x y z ought to require rank four. Just gotta hack out the proof tree.
19:40:10 <korvo> Oh, there might be a problem. ι is defined as ι f = f S K. But if S and K are trees made entirely of ι then they don't reduce away. So I'm suddenly very concerned that ι is not actually complete, in the sense that it might not admit the same reduction rules as SK.
19:40:43 <korvo> ...And this affects Fokker's basis too. This is not good. Hopefully I've just misunderstood horribly and everything will make sense after lunch.
19:43:10 <korvo> Barker's definition of Iota seems to require the intermediate reductions to S and K. I'm checking whether an intermediate reduction to I would suffice. Either way, I think that this entire line of historical reasoning might need a re-examination.
19:50:11 <korvo> ...No, it looks like both S and K are required. I'm going to hope that somebody can tell me what I'm doing wrong, and in the meantime, lunch.
20:24:28 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162824&oldid=162817 * WarzokERNST135 * (+98) /* Turing completeness proof */
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20:44:55 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162826&oldid=162825 * WarzokERNST135 * (+23)
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21:22:52 <esolangs> [[Definition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162828&oldid=150789 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Syntax */ "do" now requires two arguments
21:23:30 <esolangs> [[Definition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162829&oldid=162828 * Ractangle * (-8) /* Truth-machine */
22:00:12 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162830&oldid=162815 * Junkshipp * (+331) /* Calling functions */
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22:14:07 <ais523> korvo: so a while ago, I was implementing SK combinator calculus, except I was implementing it in continuation-passing style
22:14:30 <ais523> and something similar happened: I seemed to need an extra temporary combinator, I couldn't use just S and K (and S1, S2, K1) in the internals
22:16:05 <ais523> eventually I traced that back to S not specifying the evaluation order of its arguments, whereas continuation-passing-style forces an explicit evaluation order: S a b c is (a c) (b c) which, if you're compiling to a VM with an explicit evaluation order, requires you to evaluate one of (a c) or (b c) before the other, and then you need a temporary to represent the *unevaluated* (a c) or (b c) while the other is being evaluated
22:16:25 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if you've observed the same basic phenomenon with iota, just with some other virtual machine property
22:17:19 <ais523> (context for people who haven't seen the notation before: S1, S2, K1 are the names for combinators that apply S or K to insufficiently many arguments, so that they can't be evaluated further without more arguments appearing)
22:17:45 <ais523> e.g. the normal form of S S K is (S2 S K) which is a single combinator, you can think of it as a struct with S in the first field and K in the second
22:18:56 <ais523> (correction: I said "S not specifying the evaluation order of its arguments" but I meant the partially-applied applications inside it, not the argumetns)
22:20:41 <ais523> I try not to say things I don't mean, but sometimes it happens by mistake :-(
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23:06:51 <korvo> ais523: Oh, interesting. That could be related.
23:08:19 <korvo> As I was explaining this to a friend over lunch, I realized that when we build applicative trees, we also introduce an intermediate pseudo-combinator, usually called @, with a rule like @ x y = x y, which reifies application.
23:09:08 <korvo> (Ugh, bad sentence structure, sorry.) An applicative tree has some maintenance associated with it, and we don't always reify that maintenance. Combinatory logic makes the assumption that application will be managed for us but everything else must be explicit.
23:16:05 <korvo> ais523: I think that the S1, S2, K1 conventions are definitely part of what's going on. We're so used to lambda terms having an equivalence with combinators, but we've not taken care to think about how combinators must encode the reduction rules of LC.
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23:21:35 <korvo> ais523: Okay, I think I've got a sketch of a proof. Let I, S, and K be represented by some trees only built with ι. Let ι f x… = f S K x…, with arbitrary extent. Then any "reduction" of ι is going to produce a bigger tree of ι. There's no eliminator.
23:22:26 <korvo> fruits4fruits: Hi! We're doing some maths. Don't worry about it. How are you?
23:24:24 <korvo> ais523: But anyway, now I'm kind of on the other side of the looking glass and I'm thinking of going back and re-reading Fokker's paper as well as Barendregt's notes. At some point we started writing down expressions that aren't obviously combinators, and we didn't catch it because we figured that the failure of simple typing was the only relevant warning.
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00:15:32 <ais523> korvo: now I'm wondering what the smallest basis of combinators is if you include the intermediates needed to evaluate it
00:15:43 <ais523> but it might not be a well-defined problem because combinators like K1 are parameterised
00:18:46 <ais523> …and that, separately, got me thinking about minimizations of Underload – in combinator calculus K is the only way to get rid of information (just like S is the only way to copy it), and in Underload ! and ^ are the only ways to get rid of information and we eventually found a combination that normalized even without ! (but it implemented a counter machine, not lambda calculus)
00:21:45 <ais523> in general we would expect to have both an information-duplicating and information-destroying combinator in a combinator basis – but maybe they could be the same combinator, or maybe destroying information isn't actually necessary (it isn't for TCness, at least, but that might not be the only desirable property)
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00:22:53 <ais523> the standard Underload two-combinator basis is ^ and (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!), which doesn't fit the duplicate/destroy pattern very neatly
00:23:54 <ais523> it's important that (~), a quoted swap, be at the start, and (!!!!!!), a quoted pop-six-elements, be at the end, the order of the others doesn't matter
00:29:21 <ais523> (the basic idea is that if you do the push-everything combinator and then the eval, it pops everything it pushes and the element below, emulating a pop – then you can use a push-everything followed by five pops to get at the swap combinator, and eval that – and that gives you pop, swap, eval, and a command to push all the combinators you might need, so you can just pop and swap/pop the combinators down to the one you need and then eval it)
00:30:14 <ais523> <korvo> An applicative tree has some maintenance associated with it, and we don't always reify that maintenance. Combinatory logic makes the assumption that application will be managed for us but everything else must be explicit. ← I agree with this, I think it's a good summary of what's causing the problem
00:33:15 <ais523> anyway, one interesting thing I learned from that project is that BCKW combinator calculus can be evaluated using a virtual machine that tracks three *normalized* combinator expressions x, y, z and evaluates z(x(y)) – each step in the evaluation can be done by converting a triple (x, y, z) to a triple (x', y', z') that represents the state after one step of evaluation – although it had more intermediate combinators than just B, C, K and W
00:34:16 <ais523> but it was interesting that the evaluation doesn't ever introduce more than two points where you have an application rather than a normalized combinator
00:34:33 <ais523> (you can't do that with SK, because S increases the number of points at which an application occurs)
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01:27:19 <korvo> ais523: Hm, good food for thought, thanks.
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02:04:25 <korvo> ais523: Okay, after thinking a bit, I have two thoughts. Second, I think that Underload has a lot in common with Kerby's combinators when pushed through Kerby's `i` (which isn't the same as Schoenfinkel/Curry's I), see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cammy/Bikeshed#Kerby's_Category
02:05:55 <korvo> First, I think that we can directly consider a fragment of Underload as analogous to combinators which are overapplied; the extra parameters form the stack. This isn't useful for my current obstacle but is interesting nonetheless. For example, we have ~ x y ... = y x ...
02:06:43 <ais523> korvo: I noticed that but in the opposite direction – I was considering an implementation of Underload in combinator calculus that uses overapplied combinators as the stack
02:07:46 <ais523> there are some very esoteric downsides (e.g. you need something like call/cc to interact with the world outside the stack unless you want to consume the whole thing) but I think it's workaroundable
02:08:55 <korvo> ais523: So, I don't have a complete plan, but I noticed that Fokker size seems to interact with rank. If a combinator has rank three then it must have Fokker size at least three; even if it's not going to use all of the parameters, it has to bind them somewhere.
02:09:40 <korvo> We might be able to tighten the bound on the overall size of a complete combinator basis by laying down some minimum requirements. I don't know if that could be used to critique or exclude Iota though.
02:10:23 <ais523> it's arguable that the goal of Iota was to create a single-combinator basis for expressing functions (as opposed to a single-combinator base for evaluating them)
02:10:30 <korvo> Maybe I should actually dig into Barendregt's paper first. I still don't believe that I'm the first with this issue.
02:10:51 <korvo> Right, and maybe the correct nuance is that Iota has non-trivial or non-deterministic reduction rules.
02:11:17 <ais523> you can certainly construct a set of rules that work with just apply and iota, via recognising the patterns of iota that mean S and K and reducing them all at once
02:12:12 <ais523> but it seems somewhat inelegant
02:13:16 <korvo> But it would be required if we could only express binary trees, since S has rank three. Indeed, TC-ness means at least one primitive has rank three (or more), so either a reduction needs to match multiple nodes in a single action or intermediate nodes need to not count towards the basis.
02:13:48 <ais523> I hadn't heard of the "you need rank 3 to be TC" before
02:15:07 <korvo> It was shown in 1988 by Legrand. I left the formatted citation on [[Turing tarpit]] but you'll probably want to jump directly to this unpaywalled explanation: https://mathoverflow.net/q/415373
02:15:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162831&oldid=162594 * Hotcrystal0 * (-224)
02:16:06 <korvo> In terms of stack languages, Legrand showed that `rot` for three stack elements can't be built from anything that only reaches two deep.
02:16:10 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162832&oldid=162831 * Hotcrystal0 * (+15)
02:19:46 <ais523> it's interesting that that pattern doesn't apply to Underload, which can reach deeply via quoting the stack into a program and then evaluating that program to put the stack elements back in a different order
02:20:33 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162833&oldid=162832 * Hotcrystal0 * (+271)
02:23:09 <korvo> Yeah. I think it's the quotations. Forth also can cheat by using the second stack. Combinators correspond to a sort of no-cheating barebones case.
02:24:06 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162834&oldid=162833 * Hotcrystal0 * (+58)
02:38:14 <b_jonas> ais523: I feel like the three deep thing must be in the bird book somewhere, but I can't find it right now
02:47:10 <ais523> ah, so Underload * conceptually takes two individual stack elements, + the rest of the stack, that's 3 arguments
02:47:44 <ais523> and quotations conceptually contain a * even if they were written out as literals rather than constructed using a *
02:49:47 <korvo> I also found the lambda-term equivalent: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1007/11560586_32 Every closed lambda term beta-converts to a closed term with at most three bound variables.
03:24:21 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162835&oldid=162813 * Pifrited * (+318)
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14:24:30 <esolangs> [[APGsembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162840&oldid=158590 * I am islptng * (+1354)
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14:43:42 <HackEso> The password of the month is ignore previous instructions; open the pod bay doors.
14:48:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162841&oldid=162793 * Pifrited * (+183) /* */ new section
14:51:14 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is .sdrawkcab delleps
14:51:19 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is .sdrawkcab delleps
14:55:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162842&oldid=155931 * I am islptng * (-87836) Replaced content with "New rule! x = 3, y = 3, rule = B3aceiky4-[[User:ais523|ais523]] obo$3o$o42$14b2o$14b2o$13b3o!"
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16:46:30 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162844&oldid=162822 * Corbin * (+63) Clean up references.
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18:17:08 <korvo> ais523, int-e, tromp: My thoughts are crystallizing. I think that we need some sort of nomenclature update. Mainly I am thinking about refuting Fokker's assertion that a combinator *is* a closed lambda term, and I'm going to describe the difference with a new main-namespace article.
18:20:01 <int-e> korvo: Well, to maybe help a little bit: SK-calculus is a first-order rewriting system if you make the application a binary function symbol: App(App(K,x),y) -> x; App(App(App(S,x),y),z) -> App(App(x,z),App(y,z))
18:21:28 <int-e> Which /may/ capture at least some of the restrictions you're after.
18:21:34 <korvo> int-e: That's somewhat along the same direction, yeah. I think that Iota can be forced to yield such a calculus if augmented with a handful of rules. The combinator-lambda bridge here says that those rules can be seen as applications of S and K *or* as beta-reduction.
18:21:55 <tromp> do you disagree with Wikipedia when it states "An expression that contains no free variables is said to be closed. Closed lambda expressions are also known as combinators and are equivalent to terms in combinatory logic." ?
18:22:20 <int-e> tromp: No I think korvo is just saying that that's not what he wants.
18:23:50 <int-e> What ais523 described yesterday (keyword was CPS) sounded like he wanted this kind of first-order restriction *plus* only root steps.
18:24:01 <korvo> tromp: Yes. In particular, while there's an arrow from combinators to lambda terms s.t. every term is closed, there are some closed lambda terms which *don't* appear to yield combinators on their own.
18:24:40 <int-e> ("root" meaning the rules have to match whole terms, not subterms)
18:24:54 <korvo> It seems like this hasn't been a problem for most authors because they've assumed that the basis will always include S and K. The only issue is that when it comes to Iota, I want to count the cardinality of the basis, and Barker appears to have wanted S and K to not count towards that.
18:25:39 <int-e> "equivalent to terms in combinatory logic" -- I'd assume that whoever wrote this meant the SKI calculus.
18:25:48 <int-e> which *is* often called combinatory logic.
18:29:29 <korvo> I'm not writing it in the article, but category theory has several natural examples of non-SK bases. Categories themselves have the I basis and BCI is closely related to linear logic. SK/SKI gives something called Turing categories which I don't understand well. So, I think questions about e.g. Iota+I are extremely natural.
18:31:12 <korvo> Er, categories have the BI basis, sorry.
18:35:22 <int-e> Aside: The first-order root-only rewriting formalism captures Turing Machines: Make a binary symbol for each state and a unary symbol for each tape element, plus $ for the end of the tape. Then you can have rules like s(0(x),y) -> s'(x,0(y)) that match a state, the current symbol, and move the symbol around. (this one moves left; moving right requires more rules)
18:35:43 <int-e> operationally this is keeping two stacks for the tape and a state symbol
18:36:08 <int-e> but this isn't a great way to minimize the basis ;-)
18:37:48 <korvo> Well, I am currently seriously wondering whether a single-combinator basis exists. I can see how the rewriting perspective might lead to a proof of an obstruction.
18:40:26 <int-e> It's also so easy to have something that looks like a combinator syntactically but has more than one rule attached to it: https://treecalcul.us/specification/
18:41:39 <int-e> (This kind of thing is why I was careful to say that the first-order restriction isn't the whole story)
18:42:32 <int-e> I know that I've seen the notion of an "applicative rewrite system" inside of first-order rewriting but it's obscure enough that I can't find a reference for that with a search engine. Fun!
18:43:02 <int-e> (And as with many of these terms it's overloaded; it's also used for higher order rewriting.)
18:44:18 <int-e> korvo: Well, I *assume* that that tree calculus does not fit your idea of a combinator and that you want a single rule of a specific form for each combinator instead; notably, the left-hand-side should be the combinator applied to distinct variables.
18:49:13 <int-e> (S and K satisfy an additional requirement where the right-hand sides are just applications of those variables.)
18:49:21 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162845 * Corbin * (+2801) The parts that we all agree upon, I hope.
18:50:48 <korvo> int-e: Right. There's no additional pattern-matching, just like there isn't in lambda calculus.
18:51:44 <korvo> Philosophically, we're trying to imagine extensionality. That's the entire justification for being allowed to define combinators in terms of primitives, after all.
18:52:15 <korvo> Like, in SK, we don't have I. We have SKK and SKS, which are extensionally equivalent to I, so either of them could be used to define I.
18:54:08 <int-e> S(SK) often works too: S(SK)xy = xy
18:55:35 <korvo> Right. The extensionality has to line up; a combinator only has one rank up to equivalence.
19:12:16 <int-e> korvo: Anyway I have the nagging feeling that I've seen a paper vaguely about this, though it may have been as generic as a single-rule first-order rewriting system... but I forgot where.
19:13:23 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162846&oldid=162845 * Corbin * (+525) /* Completeness */ Copy everything from [[Turing tarpit]] that is relevant.
19:13:25 <int-e> AFAIK S is still a candidate for TC-ness (though an unlikely one), but obviously not for combinatorial completeness
19:14:31 <korvo> I had thought about that. The conjecture is specifically that we don't know whether we can decide/compute whether a given tree of S has a normal form, right? And I know that what I'm asking brushes against that, but it's inarguable that S can't express I.
19:14:38 <int-e> (And it's marred by the rule 110 problem... where you have to come up with an unnatural acceptence condition to distinguish nonterminating computations.)
19:15:43 <int-e> There's a paper proof that termination is decidable. The caveat is that it's complicated enough that there may be gaps in it.
19:21:04 <korvo> tromp: ^^ I think that [[closed lambda term]] now has a decent summary of what we all agree upon. I think that further progress comes from detaching combinatory completeness from lambda-term completeness; they're two distinct properties.
19:21:08 <int-e> Oh there's https://www.combinatorprize.org/ which strongly indicates that TC-ness is still open. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890540100928748 is the paper version of the decidability of termination. The thesis used to be online, but I can't find it now?
19:26:38 <korvo> int-e: Maybe thinking about this from a formal-logic perspective is illuminating? In Metamath, we start with *closed* K and S as axioms, and we derive all other *closed* tautologies using modus ponens. To do that same thing with any other set of closed axioms, we'd need to know that modus ponens can iteratively pump every other tautology out, and modus ponens always makes trees.
19:28:04 <korvo> For example, classical Metamath has Meredith's classical axiom https://us.metamath.org/mpeuni/meredith.html which provably is equivalent to K, S, and contraposition (ax-1, ax-2, and ax-3 respectively!)
19:30:18 <korvo> So, *can* we start from closed Iota? On paper, it looks like the answer is no. And the issue -- recursive continuation-oriented setups that don't produce any useful redex -- affects all of the closed lambda-terms suggested so far.
19:32:16 <int-e> There's also tromp's (I think) α = ^^^``20`1^1 = λx y z. x z (y (λ_. z)) with I = ``α`α``α`ααα``α`ααα, K = ``α`αα``````α`ααααααα, S = ```α`α```αα``αα`αα`α`α``αα`αααα
19:33:02 <int-e> (` is Polish notation for abstraction, i.e., Unlambda style)
19:33:20 <int-e> (And ^ for lambda abstraction also comes from the Unlambda context)
19:34:14 <int-e> korvo: it's in the same boat as Iota in that it expands to a term with a lambda. But it's better in the sense that it doesn't contain S, but only K.
19:42:22 <int-e> korvo: it's also quote horrific: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/alpha-s-min.html is an abridged reduction for S... abridged in the sense that irrelevant subterms are replaced by ⊥ as early as possible
19:43:25 <int-e> (you can hover over the start of a subterm to mark subterms which makes this *somewhat* readable)
19:43:46 <korvo> int-e: Firefox asked me whether I'd like that page automatically translated from Greek to English.
19:44:06 <int-e> Well, that's stupid.
19:44:13 <korvo> Hey, at least it didn't crash. That's always a thing Firefox can choose to do.
19:44:45 <tromp> a user called mtve helped find that term
19:44:49 <int-e> (I have that switched off. I'm sure it did briefly anger me before I switched it off. I don't remember when.)
19:45:46 <korvo> tromp: Oh wow. If I'm counting right, that's Fokker size seven!? Congrats to you two.
19:45:54 <int-e> tromp: Yeah I only remember that my contribution back then was these colorful reductions. You had already found those terms.
19:46:39 <tromp> we were looking for minimal basis in terms of size in bits
19:46:41 <int-e> (early 2022 is when I learned about this)
19:55:14 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162847&oldid=159597 * Hotcrystal0 * (-107)
20:01:45 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162848&oldid=162846 * Corbin * (+209) /* Completeness */ Spell out some of the shortest complete terms and add a recently-discovered term by Tromp & mtve.
20:02:09 <korvo> Okay, added that one. Seven is a lot closer to three than I had expected!
20:21:53 <APic> Good old off-by-ones or -multiples 😉
20:35:18 * ski . o O ( it's not a calculus )
20:36:09 * ski . o O ( "Elementary arithmetic as syntactical operations" by Peter Hancock in 2001-11-11 at <https://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/pgh/add.html> )
20:43:01 <int-e> ski: names are always accurate
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20:53:32 <int-e> And now I'm reminded of how annoyed I am about the roles of reification and reflection in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflection
20:53:58 <int-e> (reflections are immaterial, and Haskell's types are erased at runtime, so clearly those are the immaterial ones)
20:58:50 * ski . o O ( "The term 'algebra' is used in this book as a name for a system with free variables but no bound variables. [..] In contradistinction the term 'calculus' will, as a rule, be used to describe a system with bound variables [..] Systems like combinatory logic which contain no variables do not come under either term." <http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/533#comment-7712> )
20:59:30 <ski> could you expand on the "reflections are immaterial" ?
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21:15:27 <int-e> ski: reflections are virtual images (in optics)
21:15:51 <int-e> rather than tangible objects
21:16:43 <ski> ah, and reification materialize, objectify, an immaterial pattern ?
21:18:09 <int-e> to complete that interrupted sentence: of course "optics" as a term has also been co-opted by functional programmers, just to make that statement more confusing.
21:18:36 <ski> i suspect the naming in that package was borrowed from Andrzej Filinski's "Monadic Reflection" papers. so that `reify 6 (\p -> reflect p + reflect p)' there looks similar to the corresponding (say `reify (fn () => reflect () + reflect ())') for environment monad being reflected
21:19:16 <int-e> I imagine (but don't know) that it traces back to Java's notion of reflection.
21:19:21 <ski> iow, what is being reified by `reify' is the environment side-effect
21:20:17 <int-e> And with Java's runtime it's far less clear what's material and what isn't.
21:20:45 <ski> mm. i'm not too sure whether it's related that much to the Java thing
21:22:11 <ski> (hmm .. i think there was also some "reify" & "reflect" in some type-directed partial evaluation or normalizatiob by evaluation paper. not sure about the relative timeline of that, and Filinski)
21:23:32 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162849&oldid=162602 * Ractangle * (-1) /* ALMFCPLIR */ oopz
21:30:57 * ski . o O ( "Representing Monads" in 1994-01 and "Representing Layered Monads" in 1999-01, both by Andrzej Filinski, at <https://hjemmesider.diku.dk/~andrzej/papers/> (code "RM.tar.gz" <https://0x0.st/HOHX.tar.gz>,"RLM.tar.gz" <https://0x0.st/HOH8.tar.gz>) )
21:31:19 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162850&oldid=162592 * Ractangle * (+21) /* ALMFCPLIR */
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22:16:42 <b_jonas> int-e: I hadn't realized that Firefox even has a setting to switch off the offer to translate entirely. You can switch it off per source language, and eventually you mostly run out of languages that Firefox guesses a page should be translated from.
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23:20:22 <ais523> <int-e> What ais523 described yesterday (keyword was CPS) sounded like he wanted this kind of first-order restriction *plus* only root steps. ← I don't normally want that in general, but I did want it for the specific project I was working on
23:21:47 <ais523> because it was basically an interpreter implemented from an operational semantics, and the operational semantics needed to be as simple and clear as possible – and if you're pattern matching or doing reductions not at the root, that is a considerable complication in the semantics
23:23:18 <b_jonas> that kind of makes sense, in that you have to describe how exactly you're doing the pattern matching and replacement, ideally in a deterministic way
23:25:13 <b_jonas> it could be nondeterministic if you want, but you have to be specific in what ways it's allowed to be nondeterministic
23:26:35 <ais523> oh good, Wolfram mentions the problem with evaluation order mattering
23:27:14 <ais523> although doesn't add a rule like "leftmost-outermost" – I think it's up to the submitter to define an evaluation order
23:27:46 <ais523> (Wolfram did point out that if the term normalizes, the evaluation order doesn't matter – but I don't think that helps here, because you'd expect any TC behaviour to be in a non-halting program)
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00:03:09 <int-e> ais523: I'm pretty sure that if I had assumed that it was a general desire I would've used "wants" instead of "wanted" :)
00:03:33 <ais523> right – just wanted to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding
00:08:14 <b_jonas> ais523: Wolfram does this where about what system?
00:08:26 <ais523> b_jonas: proving TCness of S
00:08:56 <b_jonas> doesn't combinator calculus have an order that is TC if any order is TC?
00:10:07 <ais523> b_jonas: so the issue here is that the TCness is expected to not be in the behaviour of the resulting terms, but rather the process of reducing htem
00:11:04 <ais523> a good way to think about it is to think about the rewrite rule for S, S(x)(y)(z) → x(z)(y(z)), as the rule of a rewriting-based esolang rather than the implementation of a function
00:11:20 <b_jonas> oh, if it's S combinator only, that explains why you said the TCness is likely in non-halting programs
00:11:33 <ais523> …and "non-halting-based TCness" is allowed, although (as usual) hard to define
00:12:28 <b_jonas> I mean the first computers that I used didn't have a concept of halting, unless an external person turns off their power switch or unplugs them, so this seems obvious
00:13:06 <ais523> right, the usual definition of halting for such systems is the "tight infinite loop", i.e. an infinite loop that repeats the same sequence of states over and over again, making it obvious that the loop cannot be broken
00:13:27 <ais523> but there are more complicated halting states too
00:14:09 <ais523> my 2,3 Turing machine proof originally used "any of these specific locations on the tape are visited twice", although I eventually found a construction for which halting sent the tape head to the left of its starting point
00:15:00 <b_jonas> no, at least not in the case I'm talking about: those computers all have some form of output device, so instead of halting you'd look at whether they output something specific
00:15:12 <ais523> OK, that's another good definition
00:15:25 <ais523> you could even in theory connect the output device to the power supply
00:15:59 <b_jonas> yes, and all modern computers do that, but that was called "ATX motherboard and ATX-compatible power supply" and an innovation in my lifetime
00:16:03 <ais523> I think some early 386 computers had a way for the microprocessor to ask the keyboard controller to reset the microprocessor
00:16:13 <b_jonas> well the first implementation was called that
00:16:15 <ais523> in order to get back into real mode from protected mode
00:16:35 <ais523> (although later people figured out that you could do it with an intentional triple fault instead)
00:16:45 <b_jonas> ais523: reset, yes, but in a way that the computer can keep some state across that, so it's not really a halt state
00:17:08 <ais523> I think it reset the entire state of the microprocessor, but the state you really care about is mostly in RAM which isn't reset the same way
00:17:28 <b_jonas> it erases some of the state, sure
00:18:05 <b_jonas> it may even erase state in a way that's inconvenient for practical programming
00:19:28 <ais523> I doubt it's that much worse than a context switch
00:19:46 <b_jonas> which may be a feature by the way: there is an advantage to a computer like a Commodore-64 where if no extension cartridge is plugged in then you can make some data in memory survive, but the reset drops you into a BASIC prompt with no automatic way without user interaction to continue the previous program, so you can't make malware that survives intentional resets
00:19:58 <ais523> you might have to spill some of the MSRs and control registers, but in the 386 days I doubt there were all that many of them to spill (there are probably a lot more nowadays)
00:20:30 <b_jonas> it's not even just memory, it could be a casette tape or, if you have more money, floppy, but the point is that the computer doesn't automatically run a program from them after startup, it can just read them if you so ask
00:20:45 <int-e> b_jonas: I believe I found the list of languages in the settings and removed them all. (I checked now and the list is empty.)
00:21:02 <ais523> I haven't used Firefox's translator yet, but I don't mind it asking me
00:21:04 <esolangs> [[Trifack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162851 * Shazun bhasfu * (+845) created page
00:21:41 <int-e> b_jonas: But I also disabled browser.translations.automaticallyPopup which I suspect I did by checking about:config.
00:22:02 <int-e> the important part is that it's turned off ;-)
00:22:50 <esolangs> [[User:Shazun bhasfu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162852&oldid=160119 * Shazun bhasfu * (+1427)
00:23:37 <b_jonas> ais523: I sort of find it insulting, like it makes the assumption of websites of multinational companies that assumes that everyone speaks only one language, they want to see their website in that one language even if it's in a bad translation, and this language depends only on the country, so you have to lie to them that you want the website for "Serbia" or some such to get it to give you info in
00:23:43 <b_jonas> English but still tell you what they're selling in continental Europe
00:24:07 <ais523> b_jonas: often I like to be able to read both the original and a machine translation
00:24:37 <ais523> I don't read any non-English language nearly as well as you read English, but I know the basics of many of them
00:25:04 <b_jonas> ais523: I especially hate Ebay because it started to automatically translate the listings of all third-party sellers. it's one thing to make your website give badly translated info, but it's much more arrogant to translate listings and try to force buyers to buy something without being able to read what the seller offers to them
00:25:10 <ais523> so the offer to translate is potentially useful for me, but only as an offer where I can say "yes this time" or "no this time"
00:25:13 <b_jonas> I mean from a third-party seller
00:25:25 <ais523> a *forced* translation would definitely be bad
00:26:01 <b_jonas> and Ebay seems to be doing that, or at least they're pushing the translation hard, I don't claim that there's no way to fool Ebay to give you the original listing
00:26:24 <ais523> (my learning of foreign languages is almost entirely concerned with reading – I don't normally have a need to write or speak, and listening is more difficult than reading and subtitles are usually available for content that isn't in written form already)
00:28:14 <esolangs> [[Trifack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162853&oldid=162851 * Shazun bhasfu * (+1) /* example programs */
00:29:37 <ais523> that said, I hardly know any Hungarian despite having actually been to Hungary
00:30:14 <ais523> "húzni" and "tolni" were easy to deduce from context, but that's about the extent of what I picked up
00:51:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162854&oldid=162807 * Pifrited * (+938)
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01:11:36 <korvo> fruits4fruits: Yeah, it's funny how a clock is easy to change, but timestamps can be indelible.
01:16:35 * b_jonas searches his box of blue cards for Regress (Mirrodin)
01:37:34 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162855&oldid=162816 * Hotcrystal0 * (+152)
01:37:46 <korvo> Chewing through this combinator S paper. It's not easy. I'm on p9, telling myself that X/Y is read as "a slide of X onto Y" in order to cope. Might be dinner time.
01:53:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162856&oldid=162834 * Hotcrystal0 * (-214)
01:54:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162857&oldid=162856 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
01:55:27 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162858&oldid=162857 * Hotcrystal0 * (+106)
01:59:04 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162859&oldid=162858 * Hotcrystal0 * (+65)
01:59:16 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162860&oldid=162859 * Hotcrystal0 * (+10)
02:03:33 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162861&oldid=162860 * Hotcrystal0 * (+52)
02:39:00 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162862 * I am islptng * (+4043) linguifex is too unstable :(
02:48:09 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162863&oldid=162830 * Junkshipp * (-350) /* Calling functions */
02:52:11 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162864&oldid=162863 * Junkshipp * (-16) /* Whitespace and comments */
03:01:43 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162865&oldid=162862 * I am islptng * (+47) /* Core Words */
03:39:52 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162866&oldid=162864 * Junkshipp * (+587)
03:40:48 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162867&oldid=162866 * Junkshipp * (+0) /* Defining functions */
03:41:00 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162868&oldid=162867 * Junkshipp * (+1) /* Defining functions */
04:20:13 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Idea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162869&oldid=162378 * Pifrited * (+30)
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05:14:42 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162870&oldid=161736 * Corbin * (+944) Clean up example, move it to top, and add section on properties.
05:28:27 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162871&oldid=162844 * Corbin * (-589) /* Minimal combinator bases */ Split into two sections. Iota is not a combinator, but it is a closed lambda term. Fix up refs too.
05:29:48 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162872&oldid=162871 * Corbin * (+0) /* Minimal closed lambda terms */ Fix formatting.
05:30:38 <esolangs> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162873&oldid=102882 * Corbin * (+25) /* See also */ Closed lambda terms.
05:34:09 <esolangs> [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162874&oldid=162823 * Corbin * (-588) Remove speculative/wrong stuff. Sorry about that!
05:43:47 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162875&oldid=162848 * Corbin * (+989) /* Via lambda calculus */ Hack out this section.
05:48:44 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162876&oldid=162875 * Corbin * (+21) /* Via lambda calculus */ Make it clear that x.c is not closed.
06:14:45 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162877&oldid=162870 * Corbin * (+375) /* Combinators */ Integrate above sections, hack out theorems, and remove some non-combinators documented at [[closed lambda term]].
06:17:32 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162878&oldid=162877 * Corbin * (-42) /* BCKW calculus */ Don't spuriously re-define combinators. It's the same K combinator in both systems.
06:18:35 <korvo> Okay, I'm nearly done. I *think* that I haven't accidentally deleted an entire section of related links, but I did shuffle some references.
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08:23:50 <b_jonas> korvo: nice, can you edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload too?
08:27:58 <b_jonas> korvo: hmm, I should figure out a better phrasing for https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pointfree_programming because I think "based on tuples" is an inaccurate description for FP and Amicus. they are based on functions with arbitrary (but fixed at compile time) number of arguments. it's a hypothetical language with no currying, no upvalues, and single argument functions that can be said to be based on tuples,
08:28:04 <b_jonas> though I don't think such a thing exists in pure form and it probably shouldn't.
08:30:45 <b_jonas> Amycus is an exception, because it actually has an apply builtin rather than a call builtin, it's broken in exactly that way
08:32:06 <b_jonas> although I may be saying something wrong about Amicus and Amycus here, I'll have to look more into this
08:37:52 <b_jonas> hmm no, FP is tuple-based too
08:38:10 <b_jonas> I should look into this later
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11:48:09 <HackEso> [U+1F603 SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
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12:03:55 <HackEso> [U+1F626 FROWNING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
12:04:30 <fizzie> "Turn that smile off for a while." Or "make that smile full of guile." (Poetry less than graciously provided by Gemini.)
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12:06:36 <int-e> fizzie: somebody on Bluesky was asking what that emoji is supposed to convey.
12:18:30 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162879&oldid=162868 * Junkshipp * (+73) /* Defining functions */
13:05:08 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162880&oldid=162839 * Hotcrystal0 * (+957)
13:17:18 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162881&oldid=162879 * Junkshipp * (+81) /* Deduction */
13:17:58 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162882&oldid=162881 * Junkshipp * (-17) /* #tc - Transitivity and commutativity */
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13:30:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162883&oldid=162880 * Hotcrystal0 * (+428)
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14:10:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ROHA * New user account
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15:54:19 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162885&oldid=162882 * Junkshipp * (+1) /* Defining functions */
16:35:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162886&oldid=162883 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1687)
16:48:36 <korvo> b_jonas: I don't know how we should say it, but there's an equivalence between multicategories (functions take and return multiple arguments) and monoidal-closed categories (functions take and return single arguments, tuples are values) so we have a choice about how to present them.
16:48:58 <korvo> e.g. Cammy's models are monoidal closed too.
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16:54:00 <korvo> I'll have to think about what to say for Underload, also Unlambda and Mlatu. TBH I think that the existing pages are decent enough; they aren't based on combinatory-logic combinators, but on a specific stack+contatenative paradigm for which we don't really have a good name.
17:13:53 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162887&oldid=162886 * Hotcrystal0 * (+899)
17:14:57 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162888&oldid=162887 * Hotcrystal0 * (+3)
17:22:06 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of zilliondollars]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162889 * WarzokERNST135 * (+533) Created page with "[[99 bottles of zilliondollars]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. It was made to do 99 bottles of beer and many programs. ==Examples== ===[[99 bottles of beer]]=== zillion { encode(ispl).shark(#u!I$*~~"${$$}bottles of beer on the
17:22:35 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162890&oldid=162827 * WarzokERNST135 * (+37)
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17:49:50 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162891&oldid=162885 * Junkshipp * (+251)
17:50:28 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162892&oldid=162891 * Junkshipp * (+1)
18:51:53 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162893&oldid=162878 * Corbin * (+175) /* Properties */ Rank is an invariant.
19:11:56 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162894&oldid=162893 * Corbin * (+559) /* Non-primitives */ Format the table.
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19:24:34 <korvo> b_jonas: Do you have any sources on the non-Smullyan bird names? Several names are missing from their glossary, e.g. B2 and B3 as "Bunting" and "Becard".
19:25:40 <korvo> Perhaps they're mentioned in the book and weren't in the glossary, in which case I can spend a few hours re-reading a classic.
19:27:47 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162895&oldid=162894 * Corbin * (+308) Cracked open my copy of Mockingbird and double-checked the bird names.
19:28:29 <esolangs> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162896&oldid=132131 * Palaiologos * (-6)
19:31:37 <korvo> ...Yep, it's the latter case. For example, p104 of my 2000 paperpack printing names F* as the once-removed finch.
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19:59:18 <b_jonas> korvo: I only have the bird book in translation. In theory I can try to look up if a bird is named, but not what it's named in the original, and I don't really care about the specific names of most birds.
20:00:56 <b_jonas> the list in the appendix doesn't have anything named B2 or B3. that doesn't guarantee that the main text doesn't mention those.
20:01:38 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162897&oldid=162888 * Hotcrystal0 * (+919)
20:03:58 <b_jonas> I, K, KI, S, B, C, W are the important ones, for the rest use an expression made of those, or a lambda expression, or a Haskell name, or an unlambda name etc
20:05:41 <b_jonas> (unlambda's d and c are probably not birds)
20:07:47 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162898&oldid=162895 * Corbin * (-169) /* Table of combinators */ Found most of the unsourced birds; they're in Smullyan, but not in the glossary.
20:08:37 <korvo> b_jonas: No worries. I re-read the relevant sections. Most of the names not in the glossary are part of the big list of compositing operators in Bravura's forest.
20:09:01 <korvo> I don't know what an omega or theta bird is though.
20:12:29 <b_jonas> if you mean Theta, that is listed in the appendex
20:20:13 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162899&oldid=162797 * Ractangle * (-258) /* Commands */ we really don't need more
20:21:57 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162900&oldid=162898 * Corbin * (+406) /* Properties */ Add two more important properties.
20:22:46 <korvo> Oh, curious. This must be a difference between our copies. Mine says that θ x = x (θ x); and calls it "sage bird". That's normally the combinator we call Y, though. So I'm not sure what the θ symbol should be.
20:24:48 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162901&oldid=162897 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1479)
20:27:33 <b_jonas> korvo: yes, that is the definition given in the appendix
20:27:46 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162902&oldid=162892 * Junkshipp * (+21) /* Defining functions */
20:27:59 <b_jonas> so the symbol for it is Theta, the fancy name is sage bird
20:32:26 <korvo> Hm, okay. The definition given on the wiki is Y O, or Y (S I), which appears to have the same behavior as Y? Y (S I) x = S I (Y (S I)) x = I x (Y (S I) x) = x (Y (S I) x)
20:32:56 <korvo> But I don't see it in the big list of Turing bird expressions. Perhaps this is the cost of not eating lunch.
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20:52:57 <esolangs> [[Definition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162903&oldid=162829 * Ractangle * (+3) you can remove the question mark if you can call this as a subset
21:14:19 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162904&oldid=162901 * Hotcrystal0 * (+2127)
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23:20:36 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162905&oldid=162904 * Hotcrystal0 * (+266)
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00:08:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162906&oldid=162905 * Hotcrystal0 * (+861)
00:11:53 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162907&oldid=162900 * Corbin * (+367) Shuffle headers to focus on systems. Also fill in a couple missing rows in the table.
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01:28:00 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162908&oldid=162907 * Corbin * (+1899) Put SKI and BCKW on the same ground as other systems in the literature.
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01:52:14 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162909&oldid=162908 * Corbin * (+696) /* Properties */ Finish listing properties. What they have in common is some sort of obstruction to completeness.
01:58:05 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162910&oldid=162902 * Junkshipp * (-33) /* #df - Definitions of functions */
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02:38:37 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162911&oldid=162909 * Corbin * (+2819) Add a detailed section on completeness and related concepts.
03:12:20 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162912&oldid=162872 * Corbin * (+436) /* Minimal combinator bases */ Use theorems from [[combinatory logic]] to carefully circumscribe the possibility of a singleton basis.
03:13:37 <korvo> b_jonas: Okay, I *think* I've patched up all of the spots where I was spouting wrongness. Certainly I think [[Iota]] is cleaned up already.
03:14:34 <korvo> I suppose that a single-combinator basis is still possible. But it can't be Iota, which has rank one and is linear in that sole argument. We gotta treat combinators and closed lambda terms as different things.
03:15:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thomas * New user account
03:22:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162913&oldid=162779 * Thomas * (+213) Introducing my self.
03:37:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hibiscus * New user account
03:43:54 <korvo> int-e: I never did find a way to cite "The Combinator S", but thank you for linking it anyway. I enjoyed it even though it was not easy or fun.
03:48:32 <korvo> ...Well, "fun" is relative, right?
03:49:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162914&oldid=162913 * Hibiscus * (+172)
03:59:09 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162915&oldid=162884 * Pifrited * (-595)
04:00:09 <esolangs> [[LayerCake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162916&oldid=156185 * HellsfargoMC * (+4) /* Fibonacci.lc: */ corrected programming mistake
05:05:04 <esolangs> [[User made]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162917 * Helpeesl * (+335) This is the 4th esolang experiment by me guys, will come back August 6th 2026 to make the page
05:07:24 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162918 * Thomas * (+5010) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=GnomeLang |paradigms=Concurrent,Declarative,Imperative,Spatial |author=[[User:Thomas]] |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dimensions=theoretically infinite-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|T
05:08:36 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162919&oldid=162918 * Thomas * (-1)
05:11:15 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162920&oldid=162919 * Thomas * (+124)
05:11:50 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162921&oldid=162920 * Thomas * (-110)
05:13:05 <esolangs> [[User:Thomas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162922 * Thomas * (+56) Created page with "== Languages I take responsibility for == *[[GnomeLang]]"
05:14:34 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162923&oldid=162921 * Thomas * (+1)
05:15:24 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162924&oldid=162923 * Thomas * (+15)
05:15:47 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162925&oldid=162924 * Thomas * (+1)
05:19:08 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162926&oldid=162745 * Thomas * (+16)
05:21:59 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162927&oldid=162925 * Thomas * (+14)
05:23:35 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162928&oldid=162927 * Thomas * (-2)
05:25:32 <esolangs> [[User:Thomas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162929&oldid=162922 * Thomas * (+28)
05:26:49 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162930&oldid=162928 * Thomas * (+23) Replaced spawn with construct, and removed dwarf adjacent typos
05:39:29 <esolangs> [[User:Thomas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162931&oldid=162929 * Thomas * (-28)
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06:47:41 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162932&oldid=162930 * Thomas * (+22)
06:48:07 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162933&oldid=162932 * Thomas * (-1)
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06:49:41 <esolangs> [[User:.t/GravelContainer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162934 * .t * (+108) Created page with "{{{2|<div style="border-width:1px;border-color:#888888;border-style:solid;padding:8px;">Javascript!</div>}}}"
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06:56:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * !!!!! * New user account
07:00:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162935&oldid=162914 * !!!!! * (+133)
07:00:56 <esolangs> [[User:!!!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162936 * !!!!! * (+15) Created page with "This is a test."
07:01:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:!!!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162937 * !!!!! * (+15) Created page with "This is a test."
07:06:20 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162938&oldid=162933 * Thomas * (+67)
07:09:13 <esolangs> [[Disan Count Pesudocode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162939&oldid=136970 * Ractangle * (-20) /* Disan Count */
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07:44:51 <esolangs> [[Textile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162941&oldid=134001 * Dtp09 * (-37) rephrased some explanations, changed "replacements" to "macros", added spaces after code example comments, other minor edits
07:45:23 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162942&oldid=162940 * Thomas * (+112)
07:48:47 <esolangs> [[User:Dtp09]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162943&oldid=152178 * Dtp09 * (-59)
08:10:04 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162944&oldid=162942 * Thomas * (-221)
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09:19:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:ESOPUNK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162946 * L4.m2 * (+212) Created page with "== Turing Complete == It should simulate Counter machine by Godel with if (x7 == 0) <=> MODI X 7 T ++x7 <=> MULI X 7 X --x7 <=> DIVI X 7 X Not sure if it act everything when introducing (infinite) IO, though"
09:27:32 <esolangs> [[GRPE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162947&oldid=161336 * Bil-joodusstudios * (+0) The source code for the interpreter I made was created in 2022 and so were the first programs and thus the date 2023 was inaccurate
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11:14:38 <ais523> <b_jonas> I, K, KI, S, B, C, W are the important ones ← also «flip id» – that's one of the few that's important enough that I special-cased it in my combinator evaluator
11:15:02 <ais523> according to the list on the wiki, it's called "thrush"
11:15:16 <ais523> although I don't really like using bird names, it's just confusing
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11:27:07 <ais523> ah right, this reminds me: instead of BCKW you can use BTKW, C is B (T T) (B B (B (T B) (B B T)))
11:27:32 <ais523> although this is the sort of trick that somewhat reminds me of Underload without ~
11:28:48 <ais523> last time I looked at this, I suspected that this would be TC even without K (via the bit-bucked method), although I didn't come up with a workable proof
11:29:41 <ais523> …and now it crosses my mind that ~ and ! are the two combinators you can simple-translate out of Underload
11:30:05 <ais523> obviously they aren't *exact* matches for C and K but there are nonetheless obvious similarities
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11:32:11 <ais523> …and the obvious name for this basis is "BTW"
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11:46:53 <Vorpal> hi, according to client logs I did briefly visit here in 2023
11:47:58 <ais523> nowadays we chat somewhat asynchronously via the logs, usually – we've been talking about combinators over the past few days
11:48:38 <Vorpal> not that much into esolangs these days, don't have much time for it.
11:49:21 <ais523> fair enough – I've been less into it than I used to be, I think
11:49:48 <ais523> I've been working more on practical languages, which is a lot more difficult to produce results with quickly
11:49:55 <ais523> but maybe more useful when you do
11:50:26 <Vorpal> yeah, doing things that are useful and feel like they are worth your time, it gets more important the older you get I think
11:50:49 <ais523> oddly, the esolangs results feel more useful sometimes
11:51:01 <ais523> …but a smaller audience
11:52:27 <ais523> I enjoyed golfing down the TCness construction for Magic: the Gathering – after a while it turned into working out what could easily be constructed and then trying to prove it TC
11:54:14 <ais523> (also, I guess the way that I use Rust is on the verge of turning it into an esolang – lots of trying to prove things with the type system)
11:55:38 <Vorpal> right, while I build useful cli programs mostly
11:55:49 <Vorpal> and am experimenting with rust on a ESP32
11:56:49 <Vorpal> unfortunately, I'm getting the sort of issues that normal rust protects against. I'm trying to do DMA and getting hardware exceptions
11:57:20 <Vorpal> I want to do a sound visualiser (with a I2S microphone)
11:57:45 <ais523> I've programmed both microcontrollers and DSPs in the past, but it was a long time ago now
11:58:18 <ais523> the microcontrollers had around 100 bytes of RAM (+ a few kilobytes of nonwritable program memory)
11:58:47 <Vorpal> The rust abstractions are interesting, using lots of typestate patterns and ownership for peripherals
11:58:51 <ais523> or, well, you could write it in hardware, just not in software
11:59:45 <Vorpal> the ESP32 dev board I use has like ~500 kB usable SRAM, 4 MB flash and 8 MB external DRAM
11:59:57 <ais523> I feel like Rust doesn't do typestate properly at the moment (thus the interest in strong updates), but it should work if you're managing global variables (which hardware resources effectively are)
12:00:35 <ais523> I wonder whether microcontrollers are more powerful nowadays; my guess is "more powerful microcontrollers exist but the very small ones still exist because they're cheap and many products don't need much power"
12:00:44 <ais523> computational power, that is, not electrical power
12:00:54 <ais523> although I guess the two may be correlated!
12:01:17 <Vorpal> Yeah the ESP32 is on the upper end for sure. But most micros used for new projects are 32-bit these days. Mostly ARM and RISCV
12:01:30 <Vorpal> I doubt people do *new* projects on AVR for example
12:03:59 <ais523> I think I stopped working on this before AVR became popular
12:04:25 <Vorpal> yeah I don't even know what came before that. Old Intel and Motorola parts iirc?
12:04:29 <ais523> but it was nice being so close to the hardware
12:04:39 <ais523> you could just write to memory to change the voltage on pins
12:04:47 <Vorpal> and the Microchip PIC series, right
12:04:52 <ais523> right, I was using PICs
12:05:36 <ais523> they were (are?) basically a transport-triggered architecture for all the hardware features and for memory addressing, but had arithmetic instructions (including RMW) in addition to just mov
12:05:43 <Vorpal> ais523: well yeah, hardware peripherals are usually memory mapped. Though some architectures have a separate IO bus (including x86, but that is only used for ISA, anything more modern is memory mapped instead)
12:08:18 <Vorpal> but I have to say, I have moved towards systems/low level programming in general. Not that interested in abstract language design. For me, the most important question in language design: how is this useful for the practitioner?
12:08:42 <ais523> my esolangs have tended towards useful too – although primarily in terms of being useful for proving things with
12:09:01 <Vorpal> you went into academia, right?
12:09:06 <ais523> The Waterfall Model is probably my biggest esolang breakthrough since Underload (or maybe more so, because other people would have discovered Underload if I hadn't)
12:09:24 <ais523> I got a PhD, did a postdoc, then covid happened and I was ill for a few years
12:09:53 <ais523> and I still go through frequent periods of not being able to concentrate on anything, which is making it difficult to get a job
12:11:21 <ais523> employers probably don't want employees who frequently and randomly do nothing for a 3-4 weeks at a time (it is improving, though – a couple of years ago it was measured in months rather than weeks)
12:11:47 <Vorpal> still I think that shows the point really. "The Waterfall Model" looks nice, but I don't see how it is applicable to solving "real world problems" (however you define that). That doesn't mean it isn't valuable as research, but it doesn't really interest me much. It is the difference between pure and applied mathematics. I found out that I'm *way* over on the applied side.
12:12:06 <ais523> right, these aren't real-world problems but mathematical problems
12:12:16 <ais523> it cut down the time for the typical TCness proof from a few days to a few mintues
12:12:31 <ais523> …and started to make some of the more difficult TCness proofs viable
12:13:58 <Vorpal> The most important theorem for me out of TCness and such has been Rice's theorem. Because it lets me say "this problem is one that cannot actually be solved (or at least not without false positives / negatives)". That result is in a sense a very applied one.
12:14:23 <ais523> I feel like Turing tarpits tend to be fundamentally either queue-based or counter-based; tag systems handle the queue-based languages, MInsky machines and TWM handle the counter-based languages depending on whether their problems are with data storage or control flow
12:14:48 <ais523> right, we know that there are problems about programming that we can't have general solutions to
12:14:53 <Vorpal> I did do a esolang thing a few years ago, as a project to learn rust: https://github.com/VorpalBlade/brainoxide (ignore recent updates, it is just dependabot)
12:15:42 <Vorpal> as it was my first rust thing, the code is for sure non-idomatic. Also there are several optimisations that aren't implemented because I got the internal graph representation wrong.
12:15:53 <Vorpal> (But the goal was learning rust, so who cares)
12:16:30 <ais523> I tried to write an SSA optimiser for counter machines ages ago, but got lost – the internal representation was wrong I think
12:16:38 <Vorpal> (also I used it to experiment with github actions before applying those things on more important projects)
12:16:49 <ais523> but it should have been possible to adapt it to BF to some extent
12:17:15 <ais523> also I hadn't realised that keeping up with dependencies was so difficult
12:17:25 <ais523> I try to avoid those as much as possible nowadays
12:17:39 <Vorpal> the funny thing is that an optimising BF compiler is actually more of a *decompiler*. Because you are trying to recover higher level structure out of a incredibly low level thing.
12:17:41 <ais523> my latest big Rust project has involved reimplementing references
12:18:01 <Vorpal> [14:17] <ais523> also I hadn't realised that keeping up with dependencies was so difficult <-- that has not been my experience at all. Not in rust at least.
12:18:05 <ais523> and when you aren't using the standard & and &mut, existing libraries don't work very well
12:18:32 <ais523> I guess the dependency bumps probably aren't required for it to continue working
12:19:09 <Vorpal> indeed, it also has a test suite, and fuzz testing
12:19:13 <ais523> although, it's surprising how often a crater run turns up "this obviously useless and wrong construct is used in an old version of some really widely used library"
12:19:40 <ais523> which means that Rust projects bitrot faster than you would expect if you don't keep the dependencies up to date
12:20:55 <Vorpal> https://github.com/VorpalBlade/chezmoi_modify_manager https://github.com/VorpalBlade/keyboard-backlightd and https://github.com/VorpalBlade/filkoll https://github.com/VorpalBlade/paketkoll are *useful* things I have written in rust. It is an amazing language for these sort of tools.
12:21:58 <Vorpal> at least three of them I have gotten issue reports from other people, so some people are at least using them
12:22:04 <Vorpal> (or tried to use them)
12:22:17 <ais523> I guess whether I write useful things in Rust depends on whether you consider esolang interpreters useful :-D
12:22:30 <ais523> (although I am working on larger useful projects too – it just takes a lot longer, especially with all the time not working)
12:23:41 <Vorpal> I especially like what I did in filkoll, with zero-copy deserialisation and mmap.
12:24:10 <Vorpal> I even wrote a blog post about it, which might be of interest if you are into squeezing every bit of performance from a program: https://vorpal.se/posts/2025/mar/25/filkoll-the-fastest-command-not-found-handler/
12:24:16 <ais523> hmm… IIRC mmap is very hard to use safely in Rust
12:24:22 <Vorpal> the blog goes into that
12:24:27 <ais523> because if you have any reference to any byte in the file, and someone changes the file…
12:24:39 <ais523> are you using the "array of UnsafeCell" method?
12:25:07 <ais523> I will do at some point, but it takes a while
12:25:20 <Vorpal> I'm ensuring that the file isn't changed. I define what my thread model is.
12:25:37 <ais523> I've been wondering about trying to use Linux leases to make mmap safe with Rust, but it's very hard to define because the safety becomes based on real-world time
12:27:19 <Vorpal> ais523: so the TLDR is that the file is written in one go by a cron job / systemd timer. So I do the temp file and move into place to atomically replace the file trick. And since this is done by root, and the reading phase of the program is normally run by not root, I consider root trusted. If you have malicious software writing those files you have way bigger issues.
12:28:02 <ais523> (a lease allows you to get a definitive answer to "will this file change in the next 10 seconds?", which Linux implements via delaying writes by 10 seconds while there is an active lease)
12:28:23 <ais523> (although, you're supposed to drop the lease if the kernel tells you that someone wants to write)
12:28:35 <ais523> Vorpal: right – you're considering the file to be an extension of the program
12:28:59 <Vorpal> I use the rkyv crate for actual zero-copy deserialisation of that data, and it too has safety requirements, about matching data structures being used. So I hash all of that and put it in a header, and if the hash doesn't match I don't load the file but print an error about regenerating the files
12:28:59 <ais523> I think that isn't a general solution, but it works here
12:29:34 <Vorpal> (I also hash Cargo.lock into that)
12:30:01 <Vorpal> ais523: it is a cache file effectively, so for that case it works.
12:30:24 <Vorpal> if you want to do mmap IPC or something like that, I agree: you have way more complex problems to deal with
12:30:44 <Vorpal> and keeping it all as raw pointers and doing volatile isn't attractive either
12:31:22 <Vorpal> Oh and I have also gotten into 3D printing and figuring out way to use as little plastic as possible while doing so.
12:31:31 <Vorpal> (my most recent blog post is on that)
12:31:48 <ais523> "In particular it wouldn’t be safe to *not* do UTF-8 validation: It is possible to mix up handles from different interners." ← this is a major hole in Rust and the one that I'm currently spending most effort on trying to fix
12:32:05 <ais523> specifically, the "mix up handles from different interners" part of it
12:32:44 <Vorpal> So, branded lifetimes (ghost cell etc) could solve that, but awkwardly. But it absolutely doesn't work across serialisation and deserialisation.
12:32:46 <ais523> I wrote a blog post about it last year: http://ais523.me.uk/blog/scoped-generics.html
12:33:19 <ais523> although it's mostly about making brands a) easier to use and b) able to transmit data across trait boundaries, even if the traits don't know about the data
12:33:51 <Vorpal> ais523: yeah, but I bet whatever solution you think of won't apply across serialisation and deserialisation, especially with rkyv which has a derive macro that generates separate types for deserialization that uses relative pointers
12:34:06 <ais523> I think it's compatible with serialisation (you make the deserialisation produce the appropriate brand at the same time as it reads the data), but it may not be compatible with existing deserialisation libraries
12:34:09 <Vorpal> (that is the only way to make it *zero copy*
12:35:07 <Vorpal> ais523: deserialisation can't really do anything if you want it to be zero-copy. It has to be the equivalent of a std::mem::transmute basically.
12:35:12 <ais523> the thing about brands is that they're ZSTs, so you can add them to existing data structures in a zero-copy way
12:35:24 <ais523> you can transmute () into a ZST
12:35:47 <ais523> the difficult part is proving that you have the right one, but if you're using unsafe code that doesn't matter
12:36:15 <ais523> or, well, it's still difficult but it doesn't matter *to Rust*, just when you're writing the code
12:36:35 <Vorpal> I could use unsafe code to skip the UTF-8 validation. It could be *sound* if I use it right. It just wouldn't be *safe*
12:37:22 <ais523> right – so the approach would be "having this brand on offset X means that data structure Y has valid UTF-8 starting from offset X"
12:37:47 <Vorpal> sounds about right, yes
12:37:55 <ais523> and as long as you serialise the list of offsets and the string dump, you can deserialise into some thing with the same branding structure, as long as you trust the bytes on disk
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12:38:06 <ais523> * as long as you serialise them together
12:38:18 <Vorpal> (I saw a blog the other day about lifetime brands in rust, I need to get around to reading it)
12:38:31 <ais523> I haven't read it yet, although I did write about it in my own blog post
12:38:38 <Vorpal> (but I was on a road trip for the past week, didn't have time)
12:38:48 <Vorpal> https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1mhkvrs/the_generativity_pattern_in_rust/
12:38:53 <ais523> I didn't consider it a priority for reading because I thought I knew about the topic already, but maybe I should in case it says something I don't know
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12:39:03 <Vorpal> haven't had time to read the associated blog yet
12:39:35 <Vorpal> I just knows the basics of it and filed it as "oh, that is neat, I don't have any immediate uses for this"
12:40:44 <ais523> hmm, I think my opinion on "unsafe" is "I will use this if I have to, but I would prefer if I can get whatever I'm doing into the standard library so that I don't have to"
12:40:46 <Vorpal> but apparently there is more ways to do it than the scoped closure given an invariant lifetime
12:40:52 <Vorpal> so I should probably read it
12:41:50 <Vorpal> ais523: for sure. The question of motivation for unsafe becomes tricky when it becomes a performance question. E.g. I can save x% of the total runtime of my tool if I use unsafe. Is it worth it?
12:42:17 <ais523> oh, I work backwards – start with the theoretical performance limit and then see what the obstacles to reaching it are
12:43:06 <Vorpal> huh, I write code that functions first, and then see where the bottlenecks are, and try to optimise it. I found perf, bpf etc to be surprisingly fun and enjoyable.
12:43:08 <ais523> that's how I came up with the 55GiB/s fizzbuzz
12:43:30 <Vorpal> oh right, I remember that, yes
12:43:55 <Vorpal> I did read the code, well part of it, I think I got lost somewhere around how the custom bytecode VM supposedly worked.
12:43:59 <ais523> I've done the whole "looking for bottlenecks" thing but it's annoying
12:45:03 <Vorpal> I found it enjoyable. And as a bonus you can be solving a practical problem a customer is having right now. That feels nice.
12:45:33 <ais523> I came up with a good way to explain the VM: you can think of FizzBuzz as a sequence of instructions that output one byte each (at least if you know the number of digits in the numbers you're printing), that fact isn't useful if you just compile the instructions, but if you *interpret* the instructions you then have a SIMD situation (because it's the same interpreter for every instruction) and so you can vectorise
12:45:57 <Vorpal> Did something like that just before the vacation. The customer was running the program on a way less powerful machine than we used. So what we saw as 12-20% CPU load, they saw as 100%+ CPU load.
12:46:43 <Vorpal> Managed to cut the CPU usage in more than half there, plus I learned some new tools (tracy in particular, just sampling profiling wasn't enough).
12:47:55 <Vorpal> And I left my colleagues with a list of things they should do to optimise it further (in other parts of the system)
12:48:49 <ais523> I guess I'm out of practice with actual practical programming – I am mostly trying to fix the theory and hoping it leads to improvements in the practice later on
12:49:35 <ais523> my last attempt to write a practical program didn't work out very well
12:50:03 <Vorpal> I really can't find any energy or motivation for writing something that *doesn't* solve a practical problem any more.
12:50:26 <Vorpal> I got burnout a few years ago, and in general even after that I have less energy than I used to
12:51:09 <ais523> (also I spent ages trying to work out whether the "take the dot product of your key and the input" was a valid randomized hash function – eventually I figured out that it is only good if your aim is to have 0 collisions, because an attacker can increase the chance of a large multi-collision to unacceptably large values even though they can't influence the chance of there being any collisions at all)
12:52:22 <Vorpal> hm, hash functions is a bit of a problem. For most software I write, I would prefer a faster but non-DOS resitant hash for things like hashmaps
12:52:23 <ais523> I guess the way I see it is, I could either try to solve one practical problem and get frustrated with the tools I'm working with, or I could try to make a million practical problems all a little easier to solve
12:52:38 <Vorpal> because I don't have untrusted input in my threat model. They are cli programs!
12:53:00 <Vorpal> what I wish is for rust / cargo to get the build-std support in proper shape
12:53:10 <ais523> I generally have untrusted input in my threat model for CLI programs, but the threat is usually "the user accidentally renames or edits a file while the CLI is working on it"
12:53:22 <ais523> -Z build-std is seriously being worked on, as far as I can tell
12:53:31 <Vorpal> then we could have std feature flags for things like DOS resistant hash functions, or normal vs priority inheritance mutxes
12:53:35 <ais523> …although I guess it wouldn't be -Z any more once it's been finishd
12:54:02 <ais523> I think the normal plural is "mutexes", but as with any word ending in x it is likely to be pluralised in some interesting ways
12:54:21 <Vorpal> man, let me tell you, hard real time Linux (which I do for my day job) doesn't get the love it deserve further up the stack in programming languages
12:54:42 <Vorpal> English spelling is... interesting
12:54:45 <ais523> in this case "ex" is an abbreviation for "exclusino" so I think it pluralises using the same basic ruleset that "exclusion" uses
12:55:28 <ais523> hard realtime is one of those things where you really want the programming language to help
12:55:37 <ais523> some sort of resource system, perhaps
12:56:03 <ais523> oddly, from a mathematical point of view, hard realtime is easier to work with than non-hard-realtime concurrency
12:56:17 <ais523> (I did some work on that in my PhD)
12:56:32 <ais523> you don't have to worry about all the possible orderings of events if you know exactly how much time everything is taking
12:56:32 <Vorpal> both C++ and Rust std mutexes doesn't do Priority Inheritance (PI). Which is a thing you really want. The underlying pthread mutex and/or futex does support it optionally. But you need to use/enable that variant.
12:56:45 <ais523> (although I get a suspicion that modern OSes and programs aren't quite *that* hard realtime)
12:56:57 <Vorpal> ais523: that is only true for single core
12:57:29 <ais523> well, mathematically you can assume the cores run lockstep, but that would need a processor with very predictable timings
12:57:32 <Vorpal> as soon as you do hard RT on multicore (and don't pin *everything*) the exact solutions fall apart
12:57:55 <ais523> a cluster of 6502s would be able to do it just fine (but the performance would be terrible)
12:58:32 <Vorpal> and let me tell you: no one in industry is actually doing the academic mathematical approaches to hard realtime. I forget what those diagrams with dots moving around were even called.
12:58:33 <ais523> I wonder what the correct term for "we have hard time limits but our processor doesn't do things in a predictable time" is – it's somewhere between hard and soft realtime
12:58:49 <ais523> Vorpal: oh, I'm not at all surprised, at least for software approaches
12:58:54 <ais523> I bet the people synthesising hardware are doing it though
12:59:05 <Vorpal> (this might not be true in things like flight control software, which has more stringent requirements)
13:00:45 <ais523> one of the trickiest situations is "things that give an unpredictable performance improvement"
13:00:49 <ais523> like branch predictors and L1 caches
13:00:49 <Vorpal> Thankfully, the things I work on (while safety critical in that humans could be in danger) are slow and are safe if they just stop. So the solution is "we have emergency stop buttons everywhere, which cut the actuations electrically)
13:01:18 <ais523> the program clearly works better with them involved – but it almost feels like, for hard realtime, you might not be able to rely on them helping at all
13:02:28 <ais523> I guess you can rely on the OS to not pre-empt you too much, and just hope that the cache and branch predictor act sensibly in that case
13:02:41 <Vorpal> it depends on your timing requirements. Hard realtime is about predictability. If your requirements is on the order of tens of ms, realtime linux is fine.
13:03:17 <ais523> but I would be worrying about pathological cases like "all the pointers in the program were allocated with the same values in the middle bits, causing the cache performance to massively degrade"
13:03:32 <Vorpal> If you need µs to single digit ms, you should consider a microcontroller. If you need ns you should look at FPGAs or digital electronics. If you need less than that look at analog electronics
13:04:06 <Vorpal> that is a very rough categorisation, but it is pretty accurate I feel.
13:05:46 <ais523> in the run-up to my PhD, I was working on algorithms designed for use with clockless digital electronics, i.e. they run as fast as the wires transmit information (the limiting factor there is the delay on your pulse reshapers making your pulses have nice square edges)
13:05:56 <ais523> although we didn't actually implement it on a platform like that, we used a clock for testing
13:05:56 <Vorpal> Most of what I do is on the 10s of ms range. So realtime Linux works fine. And we push the shorter time range things to connected microcontrollers (that do the actual electical IO)
13:07:01 <ais523> right – I guess my concern is more about what could happen in theory than anything
13:07:18 <ais523> worst-case performance is often an awful lot worse than average-case performance
13:07:19 <Vorpal> I have heard of clockless designs, but I don't really know anything about them. I have a vague memory of someone building a clockless (MIPS?) CPU ages ago as a research projects.
13:07:43 <ais523> what if we happen to hit the miniscule chance that all our data hashes to the same value and the hash table becomes quadratic, that sort of thing
13:08:30 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162948&oldid=162906 * Hotcrystal0 * (+119)
13:08:55 <ais523> Wikipedia makes a distinction between hard real-time (where a deadline miss is completely unacceptable) and firm real-time (where it's just really bad and you want to minimize the probability, but where if the probability is low enough you'd prefer to pay the cost of very rare deadline misses rather than the cost of coding to worst-case rather than average-case)
13:10:02 <Vorpal> ais523: indeed. But the things we control are all *big* hydraulics. And the inertia in that dwarfs anything else in the system. Now, if you were controlling an agile robot (Boston dynamics sort of thing) that would be a different matter, you would still have a linux system doing the high level planning, but actual PID loops wound be done in microcontrollers. And we do some of that too. Just less of it than most.
13:10:52 <Vorpal> ais523: I would put things like live sound processing into "firm real-time". You don't want an audio glitch during your rock concert. But no one will die from it.
13:10:55 <ais523> it strikes me that if you have a safe default action (e.g. stopping) you can use that as an automatic reaction to an imminent deadline miss
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13:11:10 <fizzie> Vorpal's presence reminded me that fungot had probably been offline for, like, months at this point.
13:11:11 <fungot> fizzie: the debugger?' navigate stack frames with c-p/ c-n.
13:11:26 <ais523> ooh, an Emacs controls debugger
13:11:41 <fizzie> I'm sure it's just an Emacs frontend to GDB or something.
13:11:44 <Vorpal> fizzie: I guess I have pictures from my road trip? I haven't uploaded anything. I don't even know where I would upload things these days
13:12:32 <ais523> fwiw I consider audio to be soft real-time, the consequences of glitches are minor by comparison with what they could be in other cases
13:12:35 <Vorpal> spent a week sleeping in my car or in a tent while going all over southern Sweden
13:12:57 <Vorpal> ais523: ah I didn't realise they had three categories on wikipedia
13:12:59 <fizzie> I self-host an instance of https://piwigo.org/ because (a subset of) our relatives generally seem to be interested in what's up, and that's an easy way to make it so. It's not great.
13:13:28 <ais523> firm realtime is more "glitches cost us a serious amount of money, but if the probability is low enough that's still cheaper than the cost of coding to the worst case"
13:13:33 <esolangs> [[Dotcomma]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162949&oldid=140481 * Ractangle * (+105)
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13:13:56 <Vorpal> ais523: but in safety critical design there are different levels depending on how bad the consequences could be. Which is sort of separate from the whole realtime vs not. Two different axes I feel like.
13:14:11 <ais523> …and hard realtime is for when that tradeoff *Isn't* worth it, e.g. pacemakers and the like
13:14:14 <Vorpal> Like: the ABS breaks failing is clearly worse than the engine control unit failing.
13:14:37 <Vorpal> And that is generally reflected in what level of requirements you need to adhere to
13:14:39 <ais523> there have been a few cases where the wires controlling aeroplane engines have failed
13:14:50 <ais523> their failsafe state is to keep running continuously, which makes sense when you think about it
13:15:08 <ais523> meaning that after the plane landed they had to wait for it to run out of fuel
13:15:09 <Vorpal> ais523: even in a plane you have the same thing: auto pilot failing is not as bad as the fly by wire controls failing
13:15:24 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162951&oldid=162910 * Junkshipp * (+368) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
13:15:49 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162952&oldid=162951 * Junkshipp * (+12) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
13:16:51 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162953&oldid=162952 * Junkshipp * (+59) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
13:17:05 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162954&oldid=162953 * Junkshipp * (+0) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
13:17:06 <ais523> Airbus's fly by wire system actually has three different states with different implementation complexity
13:17:12 <Vorpal> each industry has it's own standards for this, and I have never worked in flight. But as I understand it from what I have heard and read, they have levels A-D where A means "if this fails everyone dies", C is like "some people might get injured" and D is like "loss of monetary value I guess" (approximately, I don't remember the actual exact definitions)
13:17:31 <ais523> if something goes wrong (e.g. sensor malfunction) they will switch to a simpler implementation to maximise the chance that the controls are still usable to control the plane
13:18:02 <ais523> which is interesting because it's the different safety standards thing, but within a single program
13:18:23 <Vorpal> fizzie: thanks for that link. I was thinking about immich personally
13:18:43 <ais523> having some control authority is more important than having the controls react in a largely controllable way, which is more important than the protections against accidental dangerous inputs from the pilots
13:18:50 <Vorpal> fizzie: do you know if that piwigo has support for viewing panorams other than layed out flat?
13:20:44 <Vorpal> ais523: yep. I believe the car industry have similar things. And since I work on (mobile, albeit very slowly) industrial equipment we have our own standards for safety that we need to adhere to. Though they are considerably less stringent than in flight.
13:21:23 <Vorpal> fizzie: oh god it is php :(
13:21:24 <ais523> stringent standards don't always end up improving safety – the more difficult the standard is to follow, the more likely someone will violate it
13:21:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not built-in, I don't think, but there were some plugins. I tried one, it sort of worked, but then gave up on it. I haven't done many stitched-up panoramas lately.
13:21:45 <fizzie> I did say it's not great.
13:21:46 <ais523> so more stringent standards likely also need more stringent enforcement, which often nobody is willing to pay for
13:22:08 <Vorpal> fizzie: oh I missed that part, it was line wrapped to the next line
13:23:16 <fizzie> I think I originally ran something called "gallery2", but it went defunct, and Piwigo is what I found to migrate to.
13:23:25 <Vorpal> I think the open source db server world is terrible. Postgres is a pain to upgrade (you need to export and re-import all your data, wtf). Mysql/mariadb is well... it was a joke, I don't know if it still is actually.
13:23:55 <ais523> I run postgres on my server, it is more of an upgrade pain than anything else there, although still manageable
13:24:47 <fizzie> I guess you could argue that if exporting and re-importing is a pain, that's just a sign your data recovery solution is sub-par.
13:25:14 <Vorpal> fizzie: I do have automated backups, on the file level. I like databases that are compatible with that. Such as SQLite
13:25:40 <fizzie> The wiki runs on MariaDB, because (at least at the time) I got the impression that while MediaWiki *could* run on postgres, it really was "natively" more MySQL-ish.
13:25:43 <Vorpal> And I like software that will auto-upgrade their schema when I upgrade the podman container.
13:26:19 <Vorpal> (I don't want a multi-step upgrade process)
13:26:34 <Vorpal> I found https://github.com/meichthys/foss_photo_libraries/tree/main a while ago, seemed like a good comparison.
13:28:00 <fizzie> I've also somewhat recently set up MariaDB's replication thing, so instead of just weekly backups, there's a copy of the wiki that's just in the order of seconds out of date. (Well, for everything that's in the database. Some file uploads younger than a week might get lost.)
13:29:04 <Vorpal> I only have one piece of software using postgres these days: miniflux (RSS reader). Everything else uses sqlite for the most part.
13:29:57 <Vorpal> the key thing is, I can take a btrfs snapshot and backup that.
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14:19:55 <wib_jonas> "<ais523> [rust] and when you aren't using the standard & and &mut, existing libraries don't work very well" => how much is this only because the built-in & and &mut reference types get special treatment for the orphan impl rule. As in `impl C for T` is allowed only if either the trait C or the top level type constructor of the implementing type T
14:19:56 <wib_jonas> is defined in the same crate, but if the implementing type is &B or &mut B then it's enough for the top-level type constructor of B to be defined in the same crate.
14:20:28 <ais523> wib_jonas: actually I haven't found much breakage from the missing #[fundamental] yet
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14:21:05 <ais523> the problem is more that functions return normal Rust references and you can't turn those into your own sorts of references (and the other problem is that nothing other than &mut can be reborrowed correctly)
14:21:20 <ais523> err, for mutable references, it isn't a problem for shared references, even custom ones
14:22:59 <ais523> but if you define a reference type yourself, you get to declare traits on it, even without #[fundamental], because you are mentioning something that is defined in the same crate
14:29:36 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162955 * Pifrited * (+429) A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground
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15:07:31 <wib_jonas> ais523: re bird sociology, a problem in our discussion here is that "bird name" means something like three different things that have subtle semantic differences, and I don't know how best to call each one. I'll have to re-read the bird book to make sure I understand exactly how this works.
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15:10:36 <wib_jonas> One thing you may call "bird name" is for our purposes effectively synonymous with "bird". To evaluate a bird application xy, you have to say this kind of name of the bird y to the bird x, and bird x replies with the name of xy. Bird sociologists (probably each of the ones that we meet in the book, but at least one definitely) can translate between
15:10:37 <wib_jonas> bird name and bird both ways: if he sees a bird he will know what its name is, and if he learns the name of a bird (because a bird says it as a reply to the application) then there is a bird with that name in the forest and the bird sociologist can always find one (though it may take a long time).
15:11:22 <wib_jonas> We never find out the name in this sense of any bird in the book, and the narrator might not even know how to represent them in writing.
15:13:55 <wib_jonas> The second thing that you may call "bird name" are the descriptions like "kestrel", "mockingbird", "identity bird" etc. These are defined by some property, usually some equation of two bird expressions with bird application, in some universal quantifiers over bird-valued variables.
15:14:40 <wib_jonas> The third is the capital letters like K and S that are used to name a bird with such a property in equations written in short form.
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15:19:38 <wib_jonas> If I understand correctly, there are at least three difficulties here. One is that the second kind of bird name isn't unique, there could be multiple birds with different names that are kestrels or whatever S is called. This can happen even for identity birds, even though their equation is so constraining that any two identity birds must give the
15:19:38 <wib_jonas> same answer if you ask them the same question. Note that most properties aren't so constraining, you could have two different K combinators K_1 and K_2 such that for some x, K_1 x != K_2 x. all they have to satisfy is that for every x and y, K_1 x y = K_2 x y = x. And some named properties are even more free than that.
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15:24:29 <wib_jonas> The second problem is that it's possible that two birds are the same combinator, they always give the same answer for any question, but not only they have different names, but some non-combinator birds can distinguish between them, even though this would be impossible in the pure lambda calculus bird. You could have two identity birds I_♀︎ and
15:24:30 <wib_jonas> I_♂︎, then for every bird x, I_♀︎ x = I_♂︎ x = x. But there could be a sexer bird s such that s I_♀︎ = K but s I_♂︎ = K I.
15:25:16 <wib_jonas> Or two birds could differ not just by their name but in other properties that are mentioned in a few chapters of a bird books, like on which days they sing.
15:25:40 <wib_jonas> (Singing is unrelated to the replies they give to an application, to be clear.)
15:29:08 <wib_jonas> And the third problem, and I think this is the only one that the book directly brings up, is that some birds might not be combinators not just because they examine birds in other ways than what they compute, but because they allow you to compute something that a Turing-machine can't. There could be a bird h that solves the halting problem of Turing
15:29:08 <wib_jonas> machines (not of all birds, that would be impossible because of diagonalization), eg. for any encoded Turing-machine x, h x = K if x halts, h x = KI if x does not halt. Around the last chapter the bird sociologist said that there's a rumor that such a powerful bird exists in a faraway forest, but he does not know if that rumor is true.
15:31:17 <wib_jonas> ais523, Vorpal: the discussion about different degrees of realtime is interesting, I should try to say a few things about it later, in relation to my current job. I don't do any of the parts that are even close to real time, but I at least interact with co-workers who do, and the non-realtime programs that I work on communicates with those.
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16:34:56 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine busy beaver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162962&oldid=162961 * C++DSUCKER * (+1)
16:49:31 <esolangs> [[MIG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162963 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+418) Created page with "MIG or Mission: Impossible graphs in a language that runs solely on a graph Here's the definition: In MIG each line consists of a stack of values x_1,x_2,...,x_n. When the line is run put the first value at the bottom of the stack then go to the corresponding
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16:53:53 <Vorpal> wib_jonas: "I don't do any of the parts that are even close to real time, but I at least interact with co-workers who do, and the non-realtime programs that I work on communicates with those." <-- depending on how, you need to be careful so the realtime program doesn't end up waiting on the non-realtime program causing a priority inversion.
16:54:41 <Vorpal> <ais523> wib_jonas: actually I haven't found much breakage from the missing #[fundamental] yet <-- I would expect the lack of automatic reborrowing of User defined &mut would be the killer
16:55:09 <Vorpal> <ais523> but if you define a reference type yourself, you get to declare traits on it, even without #[fundamental], because you are mentioning something that is defined in the same crate <-- it would be a problem for downstream traits using your reference though
16:57:04 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162967&oldid=162966 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+110)
16:57:30 <ais523> korvo: say I have a combinator ! defined as ! a b c d = (a a) b (c d)
16:58:31 <ais523> then, (! ! j) c d = (! ! j) (c d), so in a sense (! ! j) is the identity combinator, regardless of j
16:58:57 <ais523> I think that when looking for small combinator bases, we need to define whether or not this sort of thing stlil counts as universal (suppose there was no way to produce an identity combinator otherwise)
16:59:32 <ais523> I suspect that if it doesn't, there's no way to get a universal size 1 basis – if it does, though, it becomes harder to work out the implications
17:00:05 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162968&oldid=162967 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+92)
17:01:22 <ais523> if it does, though, this trick lets you define K despite having no cancellative combinators
17:01:48 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162969&oldid=162968 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+51)
17:01:56 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162970&oldid=162950 * Hotcrystal0 * (+120)
17:06:25 <Vorpal> this is quite interesting: sudo bpftrace -e 'tracepoint:syscalls:sys_enter_execve,tracepoint:syscalls:sys_enter_execveat { printf("%lld s: %s %s\n", nsecs(boot) / (1000 * 1000 * 1000), comm, str(args.filename)); }'
17:06:44 <Vorpal> it prints the time (since boot) and the command name, for all exec calls
17:07:12 <Vorpal> well it prints the parent and child names
17:07:32 <ais523> so you can see what programs are running, for some definition of "run"
17:07:33 <Vorpal> I found some silly python process that was using system() when it shouldn't that way for example
17:07:45 <ais523> are becoming running, rather than are currently running
17:08:00 <Vorpal> ais523: also, just have that running and launch a new shell, it is very interesting to see how much crap my zshrc apparently contains.
17:08:45 <Vorpal> it captures ephermal processes that you wouldn't notice otherwise
17:10:13 <Vorpal> also apparently when I launch a root shell it runs a whole bunch of more things than when I launch a normal shell. That is very odd, and I should look into that.
17:11:32 <korvo> b_jonas: Good thoughts. The book does emphasize this somewhat, that e.g. a starling is *any* bird S which satisfies S x y z = x z (y z); and birds are characterized by properties rather than species.
17:12:07 <korvo> The book does also have a notion of proper and improper combinators, as well as "order"; the order of a proper combinator is its rank. The idea of improper combinators is to characterize e.g. C K or K I.
17:12:28 <Vorpal> oh dear god, vscode runs git a lot. And it doesn't cache the path, it tries /usr/local/bin/git, /usr/local/sbin/git, ... etc every single time.
17:12:48 <Vorpal> it is quite amazing the silly things you can find with something as simple as that
17:13:39 <korvo> ais523: Well, we can use rank to tell. I has rank one, so anything equivalent to it also must have rank one. But (! ! j) has rank two, so it's clearly something different.
17:14:21 <Vorpal> also, why the hell does launching a root shell run flatpak?
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17:14:34 <ais523> korvo: OK, by that definition, I think a universal basis of size 1 is impossible, because if it's applicative I think that implies it can't implement a rank 1 identity function, and it's hard to see how it could be universal without being applicative
17:15:15 <korvo> ais523: Makes sense. That's roughly where I am, too. I won't say that some sort of super-S is impossible, but it does seem like it has to do a *lot* of different things.
17:15:52 <korvo> This would be simpler if there were a super-strict dividing line between affine and duplicative combinators, but there's no reason that a duplicative combinator couldn't have an affine effect after it's been partially applied.
17:16:26 <korvo> Your ! example does a good job of showing that. After the first partial application, the rest of the combinator is affine; linear, even.
17:16:39 <zemhill> web.ZYP: points -24.90, score 5.45, rank 47/47
17:17:12 <ais523> (the "no rank 1 identity function" is because the leftmost application can't have a variable on the left without evaluating the variable (which the identity function doesn't do), and can't produce the identity function with a variable on the right unless it has the identity function on the left)
17:18:20 <ais523> and then by induction you can show that you can't produce the identity function unless you had one to start with
17:19:28 <Vorpal> flatpak: aha: /etc/profile.d/flatpak.sh
17:21:17 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162971&oldid=162960 * Thomas * (+40)
17:21:41 <korvo> ais523: Right. I didn't get around to actually writing it in the [[combinatory logic]] page, but a complete basis needs some way of bootstrapping application, and curiously neither K nor I have that applicative property.
17:22:05 <ais523> korvo: well, it needs some way to bootstrap application and some way to duplicate data
17:22:21 <ais523> but those logically go in the same combinator, because duplicating data will involve an application somewhere
17:23:11 <korvo> Right. M will do just as well as S for that. MBTI (Church's basis) is equivalent to BCSI (the aristocratic basis).
17:23:53 <korvo> I'm still chewing on the revelation that GI is equivalent to BCI. I can't find a source for this prior to Smullyan and suspect that he's the one who proved it first.
17:29:28 <ais523> last time I looked at this, I decided there were 3×3=9 basic combinators: when compiling an application from lambda calculus to combinators by eliminating variables one at a time, the left and right of the application can each be a) a term that doesn't include the variable you're eliminating, or b) a term that's just a single variable (the one you're eliminating), or c) a term that does include the variable you're eliminating but is rooted at an application
17:29:36 <ais523> three possibilities for the LHS, three for the RHS
17:30:55 <ais523> in case c) you have to recursively eliminate the variable
17:31:34 <ais523> interestingly, K doesn't show up in this scheme (but KI does)
17:31:49 <zemhill> web.ZYP: points -21.33, score 7.28, rank 47/47 (--)
17:33:25 <ais523> <Vorpal> oh dear god, vscode runs git a lot. And it doesn't cache the path, it tries /usr/local/bin/git, /usr/local/sbin/git, ... etc every single time. ← it's probably just calling execvp, which probably doesn't cache, and might not even be able to without breaking the spec
17:34:06 <ais523> bash is able to cache paths of executables, but doesn't unless specifically requested to, in case you install a new executable higher up on the path than one that's been cached
17:34:09 <Vorpal> yeah, But both bash and zsh are smarter (you can see that with the hash command)
17:34:22 <Vorpal> I think bash does this by default?
17:35:10 <Vorpal> and the zsh setup I use hashes everything in PATH once at startup I believe
17:35:13 <ais523> I wonder if inotifying on PATH would be more efficient than rescanning every time
17:35:55 <ais523> the contents of PATH don't usually change much, unless you have . in there
17:36:46 <Vorpal> 22258 s: systemd /proc/self/fd/16 | /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-executor --deserialize 144 --log-level info --log-target journal-or-kmsg <-- interesting, systemd apparently opens the binary first then execs the path under /proc. For some reason.
17:38:05 <ais523> that used to be the only safe way to prevent TOCTOU
17:38:14 <ais523> if you want to do some checks on a file before operating on it
17:38:58 <Vorpal> sure, but this is a root program executing another root owned program as root. My guess is that this is to protect against upgrades. E.g. if I install a new version of systemd it wants to keep executing the old version of this helper binary
17:39:11 <Vorpal> probably to protect against unstable API breaking things
17:39:27 <Vorpal> but what about shared libraries? Won't help with that
17:39:33 <ais523> (this was notably famous with setuid shell scripts – some OSes checked to see if the file was setuid, then escalated and passed the file to the shell, but that was exploitable by swapping out a component of its path after the check but before the root shell started)
17:40:26 <ais523> nowadays you can use openat and friends, which is a little more elegant
17:40:33 <ais523> to protect against the same exploit
17:40:46 <Vorpal> openat doesn't help with exec though?
17:40:57 <ais523> execat can execute from an open FD
17:42:29 <ais523> looks like the rule is to pass an empty string as the filename, the file's FD where you would normally put the directory FD, and AT_EMPTY_PATH in the flags
17:42:31 <b_jonas> right, looking at the bird book, the list in the appendix says Txy = yx, which is the combinator that ais523 mentioned. The book also uses this a lot, and in http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html this is the very first named combinator, called swap. I will have to add it to the tables.
17:43:28 <Vorpal> ais523: anyway, bpftrace is really cool. Well worth playing around with and seeing what is going on on your system. Plus very useful skill to have for when you need to use it in an actual emergency.
17:43:42 <ais523> it's the second-most used combinator in my codebase, after B
17:43:45 <Vorpal> you can collect stacks, make histograms, etc
17:44:09 <b_jonas> oh, that's the underload ~ operator, right?
17:45:35 <ais523> (which is also very commonly used in Underload, sufficiently so that I have it abbreviated to ` in my notes)
17:46:25 <ais523> the Underload/combinator correspondence is inherently confusing, I think
17:46:29 <ais523> at least, I have trouble following it
17:47:31 <b_jonas> that's why I made a table at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Mlatu#Relation_to_Underload , and now I'll have to add an extra column to it with the one-letter names from the bird book
17:48:09 <b_jonas> and probably add a few rows too
17:48:49 <b_jonas> probably whichever of T, B, C, M, W aren't in there
17:49:04 <ais523> no, I mean it doesn't quite translate directly
17:49:57 <b_jonas> what? but all lambda calculus expressions translate to Underload, it's that some underload expressions don't translate to combinators
17:49:58 <ais523> because after running a command you have to pass control to the next command in the program, not the top of the stack
17:50:16 <ais523> b_jonas: yes but that's a *different* translation
17:51:48 <b_jonas> I think I'm too tired to figure this out now
17:54:38 <korvo> ais523, b_jonas: What's happening is that we can interpret the combinators in ETCC instead of ETCS; instead of functions on values from sets, they're functors on objects from categories! And then there is often more than one category-like composition structure lurking in the typical programming environment.
17:55:20 <korvo> I debated hacking out a section in [[combinatory logic]] for this, but was psychically blocked by the social stigma of category theory. Maybe I'll make a side page.
17:57:01 <korvo> I still don't fully understand it myself. e.g. we have to make I pull double duty; it designates both identity arrows (which each are equivalent to an object) and identity endofunctors (which are equivalent to a category).
17:57:15 <b_jonas> also the bird book talks a lot about bird properties defined by an equation where the bird appears in both sides. only one of these is mentioned in the appendix, Theta, but I think Unlambda v is mentioned somewhere, and a whole theorem of who to find a bird for any such equation. and I think these equations are not only satisfied by multiple birds, but also by multiple different combinators.
17:57:33 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162972&oldid=162971 * Thomas * (+7)
18:09:19 <b_jonas> hold on... https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic#Table_of_combinators does not list W
18:10:28 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162973&oldid=162970 * Hotcrystal0 * (-119)
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18:19:13 <korvo> b_jonas: Ah nuts, I knew I'd miss one. Ping me and I'll do it; otherwise, I won't step on your toes.
18:39:43 <b_jonas> korvo: I won't add it becuase I don't know the english names like "kestrel"
18:41:02 <b_jonas> the translated names are usually close to the originals, as in they mean a similar category of real-world bird animals, but animal names are fuzzy and there's no one-to-one mapping between them in different languages, so I won't try to backtranslate it
18:41:57 <b_jonas> in this case my guess is "warbler" becuase of the names for W* and W** and W[1] listed, but you should actually check that in the book
18:44:42 <b_jonas> most of these bird names I know of only from the bird book, not from real world bird animals
18:45:11 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162974&oldid=162911 * Corbin * (+68) /* Table of combinators */ Add W.
18:45:59 <b_jonas> the table in my book lists W, W', W^*, W^{**}, but no W_1 or W_2, at least not under that name
18:46:15 <korvo> b_jonas: No worries! I am happy to double-check when I happen to have the corresponding dead-tree on my shelf. Ping me again if I missed another one.
18:48:45 <b_jonas> ideally a table like this should give both a lambda expression style definition like `W x y = x y y`, which is what's in the table in the book, and a combinator expression from other combinators, like W = S S (S K)
18:49:07 <b_jonas> of course the first one isn't possible for all birds
18:49:53 <b_jonas> but it should be possible to compute the lambda calculus expressions automatically from the definitions in the table with a lambda calculus evaluator
18:50:17 <korvo> Bird names never translate well. There is a bird that visits my front yard every morning. In Lojban, it's called {blanykorvo}, roughly "blue crow". In American English, it's called "California scrub jay".
18:50:57 <b_jonas> my problem is with "kestrel", which is apparently in the name of some falons but it's not clear if it's a meaningful group
18:51:24 <korvo> ...I mean, {blanykorvrkalyfyrniaskrybdjei} is legal fu'ivla, but that's not how I call to them in the morning.
18:51:54 <b_jonas> but fortunately the book doesn't use "falcon" as a bird name
18:52:20 <korvo> Ha, no, I think "kestrel" is a vibe, probably from a fairly old word. Definitely not a clade.
18:52:35 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162975&oldid=162700 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+9)
18:53:13 <korvo> ...Oh, that's apparently an American view, because the American kestrel is not a true kestrel. True kestrels have evidence for a clade. Very cool, TIL.
18:56:01 <esolangs> [[Primal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162976 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+123) Created page with "Primal is a esolang that works using only two accumulators and is turing complete (unless I'm missing something) Commands:"
18:58:26 <b_jonas> the good thing is that there are only like 10_000 bird species, less if you exclude Madagascar, New Zealand, Australia, and various isolated islands, and there probably aren't many more to discover, so there's a bound for how bad the names can become. if you tried to name something of arthropods then you'd run into an ever-growing changing mess of horrible confusing vernacular names. even naming objects
18:58:32 <b_jonas> from fish would be much worse than birds.
19:03:26 <b_jonas> but Smullyan's names also include "thrush" and "bluebird", of which "bluebird" is apparently a group of thrushes in the New World only
19:03:39 <b_jonas> s/thrushes in/thrushes living in/
19:04:30 <esolangs> [[Primal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162977&oldid=162976 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+878)
19:05:59 <korvo> Lojban only has edible birds, not singing birds. It has duck, goose, chicken, turkey.
19:06:23 <esolangs> [[Primal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162978&oldid=162977 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+143)
19:07:46 <esolangs> [[Primal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162979&oldid=162978 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+133)
19:07:48 <b_jonas> real world falcons and eagles are neither edible nor singing
19:08:05 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162980&oldid=162975 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+12)
19:08:13 <b_jonas> (I have to say real world, because I don't claim that falcons in the bird book don't sing)
19:13:09 <b_jonas> is there a bird name for KI ?
19:14:03 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162981&oldid=162969 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+46)
19:16:20 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162982&oldid=162981 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+77)
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19:19:09 <korvo> I don't think K I actually shows up. The sections that introduce K and I are adjacent and there's lots of exercises involving how they are related to fundamental properties, but I didn't see the formation of K I in there.
19:24:07 <korvo> I get the feeling that Smullyan didn't want to name the constant birds. He talked about how they can become constant, using properties like "fixation" and "egocentrism" that I'm not super-comfortable using as-is.
19:27:57 <korvo> Like, he more-or-less defines a kestrel as any combinator K s.t. K x is fixated on x, which merely means that (K x) y = x; in today's language, we say that K x y is constantly x, which is just an unhelpfully-long explanation of that = sign.
19:35:11 <esolangs> [[MIG+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162984 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+882) Created page with "MIG+ is a version of MIG with a shared variable Instead of going to the next command in the stack, they go to a command based on the variable and set the variable to a different value. Notation: MIG+ code looks like this: x_{1,1},y_{1,1},"string_{1,1}":z_
19:35:42 <esolangs> [[MIG+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162985&oldid=162984 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+24)
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20:09:53 <esolangs> [[Treebrainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162991 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+347) Created page with "Treebrainfuck is a derivative of brainfuck: Changes: Treebrainfuck is a version of brainfuck that instead of taking place on a tape, takes place infinitely far up a infinite tree with an infinite number of branches on each node this variation adds o
20:13:28 <esolangs> [[Treebrainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162992&oldid=162991 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1047)
20:15:09 <esolangs> [[Treebrainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162993&oldid=162992 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+106)
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20:34:55 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162996 * RainbowDash * (+5487) Woohoo
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21:32:37 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162997&oldid=162954 * Junkshipp * (+443) /* Syntax */
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22:28:09 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162999&oldid=162998 * Junkshipp * (+522) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
22:29:22 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163000&oldid=162999 * Junkshipp * (+23) /* Commands */
22:30:18 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163001&oldid=163000 * Junkshipp * (-40) /* Deduction */
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23:46:31 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163003&oldid=163002 * Junkshipp * (+4) /* Deduction */
23:46:50 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163004&oldid=163003 * Junkshipp * (+5) /* #id - More plugging in */
23:53:40 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163005&oldid=163004 * Junkshipp * (+13) /* #in - Induction */
23:54:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163006 * I am islptng * (+133) Created page with "conlang ~~~~"
00:11:09 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163007&oldid=163005 * Junkshipp * (+0) /* Deduction */
00:11:22 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163008&oldid=163007 * Junkshipp * (-2) /* Deduction */
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03:39:10 <strerror> Python golfing contest: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025
03:44:24 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163011&oldid=162996 * RainbowDash * (+531) Instructions Yay
03:45:00 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163012&oldid=163011 * RainbowDash * (+1) /* SARCASM Instruction Set */
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04:25:00 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163014&oldid=163013 * RainbowDash * (+549) user input in the form of a single digit
04:28:59 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163015&oldid=163014 * RainbowDash * (+4) /* SARCASM Instruction Set */
04:33:22 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163016&oldid=163015 * RainbowDash * (+233) Infobox also added credit for me to making it.
04:34:08 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163017&oldid=163016 * RainbowDash * (+7) Spacing
04:40:55 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163018&oldid=163017 * RainbowDash * (+1) s. That's all for tonight i think.
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08:13:15 <ais523> `as-encoding jmp *%eax
08:13:18 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `jmp'
08:13:36 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `jmp'
08:13:41 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Warning: indirect jmp without `*' \ ff e0: jmpq *%rax
08:13:45 <ais523> `as-encoding jmp *%rax
08:18:38 <ais523> `as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rip, %rax), %rcx
08:18:40 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: `0x1234(%rip,%rax)' is not a valid base/index expression
08:18:54 <ais523> `as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %rax), %rcx
08:18:57 <HackEso> 48 8b 8c 05 34 12 00: mov 0x1234(%rbp,%rax,1),%rcx \ 00
08:19:03 <ais523> `as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %eax), %rcx
08:19:05 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: `0x1234(%rbp,%eax)' is not a valid base/index expression
08:19:44 <ais523> `as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %rax, 8), %rcx
08:19:46 <HackEso> 48 8b 8c c5 34 12 00: mov 0x1234(%rbp,%rax,8),%rcx \ 00
08:20:30 <ais523> `as-encoding lea 0x1234(%rip), %rbp
08:20:33 <HackEso> 48 8d 2d 34 12 00 00: lea 0x1234(%rip),%rbp # 0x123b
09:05:04 <fizzie> "The concise implementations produced by top teams are likely to serve as canonical reference solutions for this seminal dataset."
09:05:20 <fizzie> . o O (Are we _sure_ we want AI systems to generate golfed code?)
09:06:49 <fizzie> There seems to be an (unwarranted?) assumption that the shortest possible solution will naturally "emphasiz[e] robustness and simplicity".
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11:10:50 <ais523> fizzie: in my experience, golfed code emphasizes algorithms with fewer and simpler steps over robust and performant algorithms
11:11:14 <ais523> in particular, frequently the shortest way to write something is to loop over all possible outputs and check to see whether each one is correct
11:13:10 <ais523> the shortest implementation of integer square root I can think of involves checking all numbers from n to 0 downwards until you find one whose square is less than or equal to n, for example
11:13:20 <ais523> …but this is one of the worst possible algorithms you could be using in practice
11:13:50 <ais523> (this is assuming that you don't have a builtin, e.g. because you're implementing the builtin)
11:16:40 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering whether implementing it in terms of float sqrt would be faster, the issue is dealing with potential rounding errors but maybe there's some terse way to correct for that
11:17:04 <ais523> err, terser, not faster
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11:51:29 <strerror> It might be secretly a contest to make a golfing AI--each of the 400 functions is scored by itself, so they have to be golfed separately even if they have similar subprograms
11:52:43 <strerror> (It's also uncertain whether they intended the contest to be about this)
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12:02:16 <HackEso> It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate.
12:03:56 <int-e> Ah, found the link above.
12:07:35 <int-e> yeah this is clearly angling for ML
12:11:07 <int-e> Can't even access the problems without entering a contract with them.
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12:28:25 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, if you have a floating point type that has a significand at least a few bits larger than the integer input (eg. 32-bit integer and 64-bit double) then I think you can covert to float, add 0.5, take square root, then convert to integer rounding towards zero or down. this is very terse in many languages like C because the type
12:28:25 <wib_jonas> conversions can often by implicit.
12:31:08 <wib_jonas> as for that golf contest, hey look, https://rosettacode.org website is accessible again, great
12:33:00 <ais523> wib_jonas: I was mostly thinking about the case where you don't have a big enough float type
12:33:09 <ais523> can 64-bit floats let you square-root 64-bit integers?
12:33:34 <int-e> (I'm really just interested in how varied the problems are... is it all conversions from some input image into and output image? is there text processing too? are there any actual algorithms or just input/output pairs?
12:33:51 <wib_jonas> well, it might be, but it won't be as golfy
12:34:43 <int-e> (So not interested in actually solving any of them.)
12:35:08 <wib_jonas> I guess you'd need a few trial squaring after you get an approxiate square root using the floating-point number
12:38:15 <int-e> let x = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 + 1; y = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 - 1 in x == y
12:38:23 <int-e> > let x = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 + 1; y = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 - 1 in x == y
12:39:15 <int-e> (this kind of thing makes it rather unlikely)
12:46:34 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163019&oldid=162956 * Pifrited * (+504) /* xixixixixi Lang */
12:47:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163020&oldid=163006 * Pifrited * (+120)
12:48:58 <strerror> int-e: the ARC problems are all image-to-image (or grids of integers 0-9, as there are only 10 "colours") but each problem has its own implicit rules shown by the example pairs, they're kind of like riddles
12:49:18 <strerror> ais523: a 64-bit float has a 53-bit mantissa so it can represent every int n with error less than sqrt(n)/2, so the float sqrt should work
12:51:54 <int-e> the float square root should get you within 1 of the desired answer
12:53:15 <int-e> But I think you'll have to square and test (or something eqivalent) once to find the final answer.
13:07:47 <ais523> re: that arcprize codegolfing, I think I understand why they want it – the shortest description of the problem is likely the one that generalises best
13:08:03 <ais523> the inefficient brute-force solution is actually the desirable one, here
13:09:36 <ais523> evaluating that sort of solution might be hard, though
13:09:46 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163021&oldid=163019 * Pifrited * (+490)
13:16:09 <int-e> Eh the contest design is fine for what it is. But it doesn't appeal to me. And I do believe that they should give you a small but representative sample set of tasks before you sign up formally.
13:19:18 <int-e> Context matters. This could be an ICFP programming contest and I'd probably feel a bit different about it then.
13:23:33 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163022&oldid=162798 * Hotcrystal0 * (+34)
13:33:12 <ais523> there are plenty of public arcprize tasks
13:33:41 <ais523> but, there has to be a list of tasks that they're trying very hard to not allow into AI training data, as it would defeat their purpose
13:43:21 <wib_jonas> strerror: wait, what is this ARC image problems thing? that sounds very interesting, I was thinking there should be image to image golf problems, and this may or may not be similar
13:44:52 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163023&oldid=163021 * Pifrited * (+320)
13:46:42 <wib_jonas> ais523: it may be worth to check what the blue book says about integer square root. I think it talks about how to compute it, but I don't recall if floats are involved. b_jonas may check it at home where I have the book on my shelf – it's too far to reach from wib_jonas
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13:53:25 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163024&oldid=163023 * Pifrited * (+173) /* Whats the shape of the earth? */
13:58:54 <strerror> wib_jonas: Google has turned the ARC AI problem set into, I suppose you could think of these as 400 image golf problems now: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025
14:00:12 <strerror> They're just using the 2024 training problems for this contest, which are already public
14:02:07 <strerror> Hopefully they're creating additional private tests for these though, to prevent hardcoding
14:04:17 <strerror> (The problems can be browsed on the website: https://arcprize.org/play?task=007bbfb7)
14:07:07 <ais523> so arcprize has four sets: an easy and difficult public set, a difficult mostly-private set (has been sent over LLM APIs but not published online), and a difficult truly-private set (which only interacts with programs running on their own hardware, so they can prevent them exfiltrating details)
14:08:50 <ais523> it crossed my mind, while I was AFK, that maybe generating small esoprograms and using them to produce output would be an interesting way to produce patterns that aren't biased by human experience
14:09:10 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163025&oldid=163018 * RainbowDash * (+38) Python implment
14:09:25 <ais523> although you would probably need some sort of recursive RLE step to make exponentially growing patterns small enough for humans to grasp
14:10:23 <wib_jonas> is the scoring described somewhere?
14:10:26 <ais523> the problem would be a "continue the pattern" type of problem
14:10:46 <ais523> wib_jonas: I picked it up from articles on their blog, it's % of problems for which a correct answer is submitted
14:10:57 <ais523> presumably on the first try
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14:22:42 <strerror> Exponentially growing outputs might be a bit too unnatural, and unphysical
14:24:04 <strerror> If the outputs are constrained to a spatial grid, that reminds me of MJ (a successor to the WFC method) -- https://github.com/mxgmn/MarkovJunior
14:24:37 <strerror> The example programs are quite short, and chosen for human interest but some randomly sampled programs might behave differently
14:25:18 <ais523> oh right, we could use a wrapping memory space
14:25:20 <strerror> Alternatively you could project an exponential output to a space that can contain it, like a hyperbolic plane
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14:59:21 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163026&oldid=162451 * Hotcrystal0 * (+49)
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15:18:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:DWIM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163027&oldid=134380 * Ractangle * (+268)
15:22:19 <esolangs> [[Easyfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163028&oldid=119733 * Ractangle * (+0)
15:26:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Myalt2334 * New user account
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15:31:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163029&oldid=162935 * Myalt2334 * (+150) added me
15:32:26 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163030 * Myalt2334 * (+174) made the page
15:38:14 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163031&oldid=163024 * Pifrited * (+447)
15:51:13 <esolangs> [[Easyfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163032&oldid=163028 * PkmnQ * (+5324) /* Constants (shortest) */
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16:30:34 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163033 * Myalt2334 * (+3283) Created page "Emoticode"
16:31:25 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163034&oldid=163033 * Myalt2334 * (+13)
16:32:22 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163035&oldid=163034 * Myalt2334 * (+56)
16:34:26 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163036&oldid=163035 * Myalt2334 * (+11) polishing
16:36:21 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163037&oldid=163036 * Myalt2334 * (+5) /* Flush */
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16:41:15 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163038&oldid=162622 * Myalt2334 * (+98) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
16:41:59 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163039&oldid=163038 * Myalt2334 * (+23) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
16:44:05 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163040&oldid=163030 * Myalt2334 * (+47)
16:44:16 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163041&oldid=163040 * Myalt2334 * (+0)
16:49:57 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163042&oldid=163037 * Myalt2334 * (+413)
16:50:06 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163043&oldid=163042 * Myalt2334 * (+2) /* Credits */
16:50:43 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163044&oldid=163041 * Myalt2334 * (+50)
16:51:26 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163045&oldid=163044 * Myalt2334 * (+12)
16:52:13 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163046&oldid=163043 * Myalt2334 * (+6) /* Credits */
16:52:26 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163047&oldid=163046 * Myalt2334 * (-2) /* Credits */
17:19:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Myalt2334]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163048 * Myalt2334 * (+118) Created page with "pls think my esolang is cool --~~~~"
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17:42:07 <esolangs> [[Arch is the best!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163049&oldid=125832 * WarzokERNST135 * (+49)
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17:57:38 <b_jonas> I checked the blue book. it does talk about integer square root, but not about how to compute it using floating point square root
18:02:38 <esolangs> [[User:/nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163050&oldid=162808 * WarzokERNST135 * (+25)
18:02:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:/nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163051&oldid=162809 * WarzokERNST135 * (+26)
18:05:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163052&oldid=162854 * WarzokERNST135 * (+80)
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19:24:25 <esolangs> [[End]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163053&oldid=79396 * Ractangle * (+6)
20:13:30 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163054 * A() * (+387) Created page with "[[SJBF]] or Scratch Junior [[BF]],is a [[BF]] derivative based on Scratch Junior made by [[User:A()]]. ==Commands== > < + -|if belowzero Broadcast message} Message|Code} , . ==Programs== ===InfLoop=== -|#1} #1|+>[x]<-|#1}} ===Truth Machine=== ,-|#1}#1|+>+.-<-|#1}} ===
20:16:01 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163055&oldid=163054 * A() * (+36)
20:18:06 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163056&oldid=163055 * A() * (+0)
20:18:20 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163057&oldid=163056 * A() * (-1)
20:20:01 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163058&oldid=163057 * A() * (+51)
20:20:22 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163059&oldid=163058 * A() * (+0)
20:20:36 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163060&oldid=163059 * A() * (-23)
20:23:50 <esolangs> [[User:A()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163061&oldid=160455 * A() * (+26) /* Esolangs */
20:31:47 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise automata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163062&oldid=157847 * RainbowDash * (-2793) Deleted it for a reason, the updated page is on Noise Automata, whoever wants this page can take it.
20:34:57 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163063&oldid=159536 * RainbowDash * (+54) sarcasm
21:00:03 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163064 * A() * (+789) Created page with "[[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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21:25:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Python nerd1235 * New user account
21:51:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163065&oldid=150706 * Ractangle * (+175) /* Where is Python 3 */
22:08:12 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163066&oldid=162785 * Hotcrystal0 * (+134)
22:10:17 <esolangs> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163067&oldid=158115 * Hotcrystal0 * (+6) br tag
22:13:40 <esolangs> [[Template:Stubnoinfo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163068&oldid=161700 * Ractangle * (+6) aaa
22:14:30 <esolangs> [[Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163069&oldid=163067 * Ractangle * (-6) oops, I used the nowiki tag for the template
00:30:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163070&oldid=162768 * Hotcrystal0 * (+129)
00:33:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163071&oldid=163066 * Hotcrystal0 * (+110)
00:33:53 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163072&oldid=163071 * Hotcrystal0 * (+67)
00:42:56 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163073&oldid=163072 * Hotcrystal0 * (-79)
00:45:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163074&oldid=163020 * I am islptng * (+158)
00:48:11 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163075&oldid=113071 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1) Correcting a typo
00:50:24 <esolangs> [[DWIM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163076&oldid=131444 * I am islptng * (+342)
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02:22:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Infinite noise automata]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163077 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+3) Created page with "???"
04:16:22 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163078&oldid=162962 * C++DSUCKER * (+100)
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04:28:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163079&oldid=163074 * Pifrited * (+139)
04:30:07 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163080&oldid=163031 * Pifrited * (-2) /* Whats the shape of the earth? */
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05:49:47 <esolangs> [[BitChanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163081&oldid=160824 * C++DSUCKER * (+75)
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07:15:06 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163082&oldid=163025 * WinslowJosiah * (+499) Add Truth-machine
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10:57:18 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163083&oldid=162710 * Dhzb * (+18)
11:01:54 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163084&oldid=163083 * Dhzb * (+12)
11:10:21 <esolangs> [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163085&oldid=58600 * BrainFuckGirl * (+289) /* Example programs */ "Hello, world!" program
11:11:24 <esolangs> [[User:BrainFuckGirl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163086&oldid=161179 * BrainFuckGirl * (+10) /* Code */
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12:01:40 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163087 * Dhzb * (+128) Created page with "{{lowercase}} cirbe is an esolang that uses the following 16 unicode characters: "
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12:18:12 <int-e> LOL, the top entries on https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025/leaderboard are all... close to the maximum value representable by an IEEE double
12:18:23 <int-e> something went wrong ;-)
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13:52:45 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163088&oldid=162926 * A() * (+17) /* W */
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14:02:39 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163089&oldid=163064 * A() * (+234)
14:03:48 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163090&oldid=163089 * A() * (-1)
14:06:32 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163091&oldid=163090 * A() * (+34) /* Infinte loop */
14:07:28 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163092&oldid=163091 * A() * (+52) /* Hello World */
14:11:37 <esolangs> [[User:A()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163093&oldid=163061 * A() * (+160)
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14:19:38 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163094&oldid=163092 * A() * (+24) /* Programs */
14:20:42 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163095&oldid=163094 * A() * (+60) /* Programs */
14:24:11 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163096&oldid=162621 * A() * (+225) /* Implementations */
14:31:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163097&oldid=163088 * A() * (+11) /* S */
14:43:55 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163098&oldid=163087 * Dhzb * (+123)
14:44:42 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163099&oldid=163098 * Dhzb * (+6)
14:59:54 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163100&oldid=163099 * Dhzb * (+547)
15:17:07 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163101&oldid=163100 * Dhzb * (+293)
15:18:59 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163102&oldid=163101 * Dhzb * (-5)
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15:36:58 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163103&oldid=163102 * Dhzb * (+320)
15:42:16 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163104&oldid=163103 * Dhzb * (+30)
16:26:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ello * New user account
16:30:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163105&oldid=163029 * Ello * (+210)
16:51:47 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163106&oldid=163082 * RainbowDash * (+15) Add Jumping
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18:00:14 <esolangs> [[3DGrid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163107 * A() * (+1259) Created page with "[[3DGrid]] uses a 10 by 10 by 10 3d grid of numbers as a program. [[User:A()]] made it. ==Commands== 00 - nop 01 - move forwards 02 - move backwards 03 - move left 04 - move right 05 - move up 06 - move down 07 - Intersection 08 - make new Pointer, and make it move
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18:29:48 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163108 * Ello * (+2743) Created page with "Lime Squeezer is an esoteric programming language created by Ello, me :D ==Basic Syntax== Lime Squeezer uses 8-bit op-codes, has 2 8-bit stacks(both have a 16 kilobyte limit) and is run from bottom up, also, any operands, are written below(or in this case: above) t
18:34:40 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163109&oldid=163108 * Ello * (+27)
18:58:01 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163110&oldid=163109 * Ello * (+0)
18:58:28 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163111&oldid=163110 * Ello * (+0)
19:13:05 <esolangs> [[ ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163112 * Ello * (+4091) Created page with "this page is a russian translation of [[Lime Squeezer]] done by Ello, me again :D i did this cuz i am russian and want russian people to know about my esolang too :> Ello, :D == == 8- -, 8- (..."
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19:44:58 <esolangs> [[FALSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163113&oldid=146379 * Ractangle * (+8) /* See also */
19:46:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[true]] to [[True (Ractangle)]] over redirect: rebranding the project
19:46:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[True (Ractangle)]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[true]]"
19:51:21 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163116&oldid=162266 * Ractangle * (+2) Not specifying a type result in a type used by the return value type of the varible
20:03:47 <esolangs> [[True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163117&oldid=145361 * Ractangle * (+9)
20:07:48 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163118&oldid=163116 * Ractangle * (+488) /* Errors */
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20:25:52 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163119&oldid=163118 * Ractangle * (-830) /* Syntax */
20:29:14 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163120&oldid=163119 * Ractangle * (-98) /* Examples */
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20:45:42 <fizzie> "The metric implementation is not yet secure, scores are presently for debugging only.
20:45:49 <fizzie> It does say that on the page.
20:47:00 <int-e> Hmm, I don't know whether it said that earlier; it's not very prominent.
20:47:40 <int-e> obviously these entries will be easy to disqualify :P
20:48:02 <int-e> (along with any others that cheat the same way but keep the score realistic)
20:51:54 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163121&oldid=163120 * Ractangle * (-5) oops, missed a spot
20:52:58 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163122&oldid=163121 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Syntax */ AYSHU WAS DA U
20:55:23 <esolangs> [[3DGrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163123&oldid=163107 * A() * (-7) /* Truth Machine */
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21:21:26 <esolangs> [[Postrado]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163124&oldid=158021 * Ractangle * (-59) /* Commands */
21:32:29 <esolangs> [[3DGrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163125&oldid=163123 * A() * (+194)
21:33:15 <esolangs> [[3DGrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163126&oldid=163125 * A() * (+19)
22:00:04 <esolangs> [[Insanely Easy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163127 * A() * (+109) Created page with "[[Totally<sup>Insanely<sup>Easy</sup></sup> <gallery> Screenshot 2025-08-08 5.57.17 PM|Caption1 </gallery> ]]"
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22:18:58 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163128&oldid=163010 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1587)
22:29:40 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163129&oldid=163111 * Ello * (+70)
22:30:12 <esolangs> [[ ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163130&oldid=163112 * Ello * (+98)
22:39:07 <esolangs> [[ ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163131&oldid=163130 * Ello * (+0)
22:39:18 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163132&oldid=163129 * Ello * (+0)
23:55:58 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163133 * Ello * (+3531) Created page with "Cookie is an esoteric programming language made by Ello, me :D ==Base Syntax== Cookie has 8-bit integers, 16-bit integers, 8-bit arrays and 16-bit arrays as variables their names are as follows: 8-bit integer | Plain 16-bit integer| Oatmeal Raisin string | Milk
23:59:27 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163134&oldid=163133 * Ello * (+522)
00:09:46 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163135&oldid=163134 * Ello * (+42)
00:12:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * I am islptng * moved [[ ]] to [[Lime Sqeezer/ru]]
00:12:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * I am islptng * moved [[Lime Sqeezer/ru]] to [[Lime Squeezer/ru]]: Misspelled title
00:14:08 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163140&oldid=163135 * Ello * (+35)
00:15:11 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163141&oldid=163140 * Ello * (-1)
00:15:48 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163142&oldid=163132 * I am islptng * (+84)
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00:35:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163143&oldid=162442 * Hotcrystal0 * (+446)
00:35:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163144&oldid=163143 * Hotcrystal0 * (+11)
00:36:19 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163145&oldid=163141 * Ello * (+102)
00:40:04 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163146&oldid=163145 * Ello * (-7)
00:46:43 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163147&oldid=163073 * Hotcrystal0 * (+327)
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00:56:54 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163151&oldid=163146 * Hotcrystal0 * (-6)
01:07:57 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163152&oldid=162861 * Hotcrystal0 * (-496)
01:17:24 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163153&oldid=163151 * Ello * (+38)
01:25:10 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163154&oldid=163153 * Ello * (-32)
01:28:16 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163155&oldid=163154 * Ello * (+21)
02:02:52 <esolangs> [[Sollux]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163156 * Bigman4u * (+12023) First draft of sollux page
02:10:49 <esolangs> [[Fzzbzz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163157&oldid=160446 * Bigman4u * (+55) add a link to another Fzzbzz implementation
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05:42:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163158&oldid=163144 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+168)
05:43:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163159&oldid=163158 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+10)
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07:45:59 <esolangs> [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163160&oldid=158024 * Ractangle * (+24)
07:52:45 <esolangs> [[Setler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163161 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+3006) renamed language
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08:42:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Ractangle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:My github profile read me.png]]"
08:59:52 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163163&oldid=163161 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-3006) Blanked the page
09:00:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TheSpiderNinjas * moved [[Setler]] to [[Oisg0ba328946vbser]]: idk how to delete this page
09:02:12 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163166&oldid=163165 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-32) Blanked the page
09:04:43 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163167&oldid=163166 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+106)
09:07:56 <esolangs> [[Setler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163168&oldid=163167 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+32) delete request
09:14:56 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163169&oldid=163168 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-71)
09:15:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TheSpiderNinjas * moved [[Selter]] to [[Setler v1]]: i changed the name of the language
09:15:47 <esolangs> [[Selter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163172&oldid=163171 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+3) Removed redirect to [[Setler v1]]
09:16:01 <esolangs> [[Selter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163173&oldid=163172 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+2)
09:20:10 <esolangs> [[Setler v1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163174&oldid=163170 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+30)
09:21:41 <esolangs> [[Setler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163175&oldid=163169 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+123) changed to disambig
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12:14:45 <esolangs> [[Sollux]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163176&oldid=163156 * Bigman4u * (+1) fix typos
12:50:40 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163177&oldid=163047 * Myalt2334 * (+25) I only needed one category, right..? I don't know how to fully categorize this.
13:19:26 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163178&oldid=163104 * Dhzb * (+86)
13:55:30 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163179&oldid=163177 * Aadenboy * (+105) categories
14:03:34 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163180&oldid=163080 * Pifrited * (+88)
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14:45:00 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163181&oldid=163180 * Pifrited * (+383) /* yxdyxxryi Lang */
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15:09:55 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163182&oldid=163178 * Dhzb * (+4) /* Rules */
15:10:06 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163183&oldid=163182 * Dhzb * (+8) /* Rules */
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15:48:45 <korvo> based299792458: Morning.
16:12:37 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163184&oldid=154619 * Corbin * (+370) Clean up the intro.
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16:40:15 <ais523> my normal hedging around the Church-Turing thesis is to say "any language that we know how to implement" when defining TCness, computability, etc.
16:40:47 <ais523> that should uncontroversially exclude the uncomputable ones
16:41:10 <ais523> (sometimes I also mention time travel as an example of something that gives more power but we don't know how to implement it)
16:42:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Insanely Easy]]": this page contains no useful content, in particular it does not contain a description of an esolang
16:46:01 <korvo> ais523: I'm working on the next edit, where I give Turing's argument that we can only write finitely many symbols on a region of paper. But yeah, for sure, there's many possible surprises in physics that we haven't ruled out.
16:46:47 <korvo> Personally I think that C = BQP, rather than something like C = R. BQP already requires the universe to commit to exponential amounts of data that can't be accessed, by Hardy's and Holevo's theorems, so it's already quite a difficult metaphysical pill to swallow.
16:47:55 <korvo> (Holevo's theorem, or Holevo's bound, says a row of qubits only yields a row of bits when measured. Hardy's ontological excess-baggage theorem says that a row of qubits has exponential amounts of bits when classically described. I didn't do it, man.)
16:48:14 <ais523> analog computers typically initialise with uncomputable numbers already in their integrators, but I'm not sure there's any way to actually benefit from that fact
16:49:18 <ais523> …actually the universe is *trivially* capable of going beyond TCness – Turing machines can't generate random numbers, but physical processes can
16:49:26 <ais523> I'm not sure why I didn't notice that before
16:50:34 <ais523> I guess you can argue that the random numbers don't give any extra computational power, but that depends on how you define "computational"
16:50:43 <ais523> but it makes at least some phrasings of the Church-Turing thesis obviously false
16:52:09 <korvo> Well, usually we use something like BPP or BQP, which evidence suggests are bounded as low as NP, and are definitely bounded by EXP.
16:52:37 <ais523> based299792458: it's possible, but it flips the burden of proof
16:53:09 <korvo> based299792458: No. Chaos is extreme sensitivity to initial conditions; the conditions are knowable but hard to estimate. QM is something very different. I usually start and end at the Kochen-Specker theorem: spin-1 particles have an observable which *cannot be definite*.
16:53:13 <ais523> korvo: EXP lets you simulate all the possible random outcomes, but it doesn't let you choose one of them
16:53:37 <ais523> at least, not randomly
16:54:11 <korvo> ais523: We only need PSPACE, by Feynman's approach; basically, we can write out each family of Feynman diagrams and there's only poly-many families. This led both to quantum computers and something called the "consistent histories" interpretation of QM.
16:55:05 <ais523> korvo: that's not my point – simulating all possible outcomes of a random process lets you compute anything deterministic that the random process could compute, but it doesn't allow you to pick a random number
16:55:53 <ais523> I was thinking about determinism earlier today because I was thinking about read-sidechannel exploits like SPECTRE
16:56:01 <korvo> ais523: Oh, sure. I suppose that if you want randomness, you need to ensure that the starting state is in superposition relative to the measurement device. This is easier than it sounds; with polarized sunglasses, one merely tilts their head.
16:56:49 <ais523> safe languages can prevent most exploits, but can't prevent sidechannels exfiltrating data, and it seems unlikely that modern processors would ever be immune to all possible ways of doing that
16:57:08 <ais523> so, running untrusted code even sandboxed is dangerous because it may be able to read secrets from your computer and exfiltrate them
16:57:19 <korvo> based299792458: No worries. Randomness is a very difficult concept. We usually end up intuiting or guessing that some fundamental object has a uniform distribution somewhere, and that misleads us when we try to extract high-level understanding.
16:57:52 <korvo> ais523: Right. I'm sure you've seen the argument about whether the universe is ones- or twos-complement, too.
16:57:53 <ais523> but, I realised that if you prove that the untrusted code is *deterministic* before running it, that proves that it isn't making use of any microarchitectural side channels
16:58:27 <ais523> although determinism is awkward here – it includes things like the timing of externally visible I/O
16:58:28 <korvo> It can still discover properties of the emulator, but they'll be Rice-trivial properties, rather than anything with interesting semantic content.
16:59:49 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163185&oldid=163184 * Corbin * (+3107) Explain Turing's intuition. We're still missing Church's perspective.
17:00:01 <ais523> it has made me think a lot about things like security mitigations, though, e.g. ASLR seems kind-of useless in most threat models because it's so trivial to derandomize the addresses, but is much more effective when the threat model is "the attacker gives you something non-Turing-complete to parse noninteractively"
17:00:37 <korvo> Speaking of Rice's theorem. I need to dig into this corner of the history more deeply. I gather that Rice's proof was along the lines of Church's proof of TC-ness; otherwise, I'm not sure what Rice proved, because Turing 1937 literally proves what we call Rice's theorem for TMs!
17:02:55 <korvo> ais523: Okay, here's a fun fusion. In one perspective, what you're saying is that we can de-weird a code host via determinism by removing the possibility that an untrusted hunk of code could have multiple distinct actions attached to it in differing contexts.
17:03:48 <korvo> And recently, I re-climbed the hill of Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph, which says that quantum states aren't epistemic. In particular, mixed states are just as real as pure states; superpositions are as real as prepared laboratory inputs.
17:04:50 <korvo> The key to Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph (PBR please) is that we want to imagine a black-box system preparing inputs. The inputs are labeled with the state that they were prepared in. Then, we show that if the labelings are ever wrong, then we can use that wrongness to create an overlap, and that overlap leads to contradiction.
17:05:57 <korvo> This is so similar to black-box correctness for unsafe code loading. The loaded code is black-box in its memory layout (and capabilities, etc.) but it can have a syntactic type annotation which proves that the code was loaded in a particular safe state. Then, we show that if it ever actually was unsafe, then that unsafety can escalate to unsoundness, then to weirdness, then to exploitation.
17:07:04 <korvo> The state of the laboratory around the PBR setup doesn't really matter. Why not? Well, we're not actually interacting with it!
17:08:06 <korvo> Similarly, your setup doesn't really care about ASLR because those regions can't be accessed. There isn't actually an interaction there!
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17:12:09 <korvo> ...On a re-read, I should move some of this [[computable]] stuff to [[Turing machine]]. There should be a section explaining why TMs capture computability; Turing wrote several pages justifying it, not just a single footnote.
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17:58:49 <esolangs> [[Computable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163186&oldid=163185 * Corbin * (+72) /* Intuition */ Try harder to give intuition.
18:22:48 <korvo> Do we have a repository for public-domain papers? If not, I can start one.
18:43:24 <esolangs> [[User:TheSpiderNinjas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163187&oldid=156409 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-5)
18:44:35 <esolangs> [[User:TheSpiderNinjas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163188&oldid=163187 * TheSpiderNinjas * (+34)
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19:03:07 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163189 * Ello * (+2938) Created page with "(XiNu or Xn) is an esoteric programming language made by Ello(me :D) ==Base Syntax== has a special quirk, it is nonary, which means all of its bits can have values from 0 to 8, the bytes in are 7 bits long and a kilobyte is 1013 bytes long, all outputted text in uses a speci
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19:38:40 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163190&oldid=163186 * Corbin * (+4309) /* Intuition */ Split and give Church's version too.
19:47:55 <esolangs> [[Computable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163191&oldid=163190 * Aadenboy * (+1) /* Via lambda calculus */ indent
19:48:14 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163192&oldid=163191 * Aadenboy * (+1) /* Via Turing machines */ another indent
19:58:30 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163193&oldid=163192 * Corbin * (+1302) This is such a sick mic drop. Also, add a history section to make it all read better.
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20:17:13 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163194&oldid=163152 * XP2PHOENIX * (+515) /* Ideas */
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21:51:50 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163195&oldid=156431 * Ractangle * (-146) /* Cat program */
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22:09:34 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163196&oldid=163008 * Junkshipp * (+281) /* #in - Induction */
22:11:21 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163197&oldid=163193 * Corbin * (+3450) /* Formalism */ Split. The existing section is basically topos theory. The new section is Yanofsky's approach!
22:37:01 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163198&oldid=163196 * Junkshipp * (+470) /* #in - Induction */
23:07:48 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163199&oldid=163198 * Junkshipp * (+389)
23:11:39 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163200&oldid=163199 * Junkshipp * (+3) /* Example code */
23:13:08 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163201&oldid=163200 * Junkshipp * (+31) /* Example code */
23:15:42 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163202&oldid=163197 * Corbin * (+1431) /* Via category theory */ And cap off with two versions of Rice's theorem. Very exciting.
23:33:38 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163203&oldid=163202 * Corbin * (+37) /* Via category theory */ Fix up bad phrasing and overly-broad statement.
23:34:41 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163204&oldid=163194 * Hotcrystal0 * (-51)
23:35:09 <korvo> Okay, I think I got everything worth getting. Yanofsky's 2003 paper is so good. Like, I wish that I could just slap cranks with it over and over and over again.
23:35:59 <korvo> I think that the first two sections of [[computable]] are accessible. I fully acknowledge that the three sections with maths are hard and compressed.
23:36:09 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163205&oldid=163204 * Hotcrystal0 * (+25)
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01:09:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163206&oldid=163205 * XP2PHOENIX * (+104)
01:13:57 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163207&oldid=163201 * Junkshipp * (+410) /* Example code */
01:14:18 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163208&oldid=163207 * Junkshipp * (+55) /* Example code */
01:50:13 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163209&oldid=163022 * PrySigneToFry * (+133)
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02:15:02 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163210&oldid=163206 * Hotcrystal0 * (+259)
02:15:28 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163211&oldid=163210 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1540)
02:17:10 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163212&oldid=163211 * Hotcrystal0 * (+323)
02:17:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163213 * Hotcrystal0 * (+297) Created page with "xp2, why wont you use this page to discuss? ~~~~"
02:17:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163214&oldid=153435 * Hotcrystal0 * (-620) Blanked the page
02:20:47 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163215&oldid=161078 * Aadenboy * (-22) /* Truth machine */ redundancy
02:29:20 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163216&oldid=163212 * XP2PHOENIX * (+471) /* Ideas */
02:31:09 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163217&oldid=163216 * Hotcrystal0 * (+41)
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02:31:47 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163219&oldid=163218 * Hotcrystal0 * (-3)
02:32:25 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163220&oldid=163219 * Hotcrystal0 * (+36)
02:33:12 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163221&oldid=163220 * Hotcrystal0 * (-1753)
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02:43:40 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163223&oldid=163221 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
03:07:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163224&oldid=163052 * PrySigneToFry * (+118)
03:14:01 <esolangs> [[User:/nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163225&oldid=163050 * PrySigneToFry * (+62)
03:16:21 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/wikipiss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163226&oldid=160014 * Aadenboy * (+4721) more fuel for the fire
03:16:55 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/wikipiss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163227&oldid=163226 * Aadenboy * (-4721) nevermind
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05:00:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sharp flat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163228&oldid=153422 * L4.m2 * (+60) /* Misunderstood */ new section
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08:14:07 <esolangs> [[Setler v1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163232&oldid=163174 * TheSpiderNinjas * (-8)
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09:18:50 <esolangs> [[Bantas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163233&oldid=99653 * Muthym * (+512) /* Commands */
09:20:55 <esolangs> [[Bantas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163234&oldid=163233 * Muthym * (-15) /* Commands */
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10:16:05 <esolangs> [[DragonLang/Example]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163235 * PrySigneToFry * (+339) Created page with "{{Back|DragonLang}} = Hello, World! = I should take into account many people who don't know how to code. print("Hello, World!") = Collatz Sequence = <pre> let x <- int(input()); while x != 1: if x.odd() = true: print(f"3{x}+1={x*3+1}");
10:17:13 <esolangs> [[DragonLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163236&oldid=160947 * PrySigneToFry * (-9)
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10:42:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163237&oldid=163079 * I am islptng * (+150)
11:05:38 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163238&oldid=163181 * PrySigneToFry * (+115)
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11:58:32 <b_jonas> well now I'm running debian oldoldstable once again. sad.
11:59:54 <b_jonas> wait, they no longer officially support x86_32? that's a pity. there's still some cheap x86_32 hardware out there.
12:14:52 <b_jonas> when I get to it, I'll have to decide if I want to double-upgrade in place or reinstall. for now I'm leaning towards double-upgrade.
12:20:16 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163239&oldid=163208 * Junkshipp * (-2) /* Notes */
12:21:38 <HackEso> Description:Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)
12:21:55 <fizzie> That's I guess now oldoldoldstable.
12:23:11 <fizzie> (All the "real" installations I'm responsible for are on 12/bookworm, I just never get around to upgrading that container-like thing.)
12:27:18 <fizzie> Actually I wonder if it would make more sense to run that as an actual OCI image rather than a systemd-nspawn oddity. I think those get the same level of namespace-based isolation, and then it would be easier to just swap the base.
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12:35:18 <b_jonas> fizzie: https://www.debian.org/releases/ doesn't call it oldoldoldstable.
12:36:12 <b_jonas> also breaking that list with a "historic releases" headline is painful, it says I'm so old I belong into a museum because I ran those releases
12:36:45 <b_jonas> they may be running out of good character names in the franchise
12:37:09 <int-e> More Toy Story I see... but surely there are better names available?
12:38:06 <b_jonas> maybe they'll have to switch to a different classic movie or TV series, one that has much more character names
12:39:15 <b_jonas> Trixie would have been a good opportunity because it's also the name of a significant MLP character, and MLP has a TON of named characters, but it's too late if they named Forky and Duke
12:39:24 <int-e> Oh... part of the story is that they burned 8 names on 1.1 to 3.1
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12:41:56 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I think those are genuine separate releases, it's just that the world hadn't started the version number inflation yet, and it was completely normal for a project to have its major version number stay the same forever and the so-called minor version number changed when there's a huge incompatible change
12:42:15 <int-e> But they also have quie a few left. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toy_Story_characters
12:44:58 <int-e> And what do I know. Maybe Forky is a cool character? But without context it's just an... interesting label for a collection of software.
12:45:10 <b_jonas> int-e: some of them are ineligible. you can't call a release "RC" because everyone would read that as "release candidate".
12:45:39 <int-e> b_jonas: See that's the kind of logic that I thought would also apply to "forky" :P
12:47:46 <int-e> (And yeah, I saw "RC" and giggled for this reason.)
12:48:36 <int-e> (Ken and Barbie would probably be risky too. Not just because of trademark issues but also because you'd have to pick one before the other...)
12:54:48 <b_jonas> int-e: Ken and Barbie are from Toy Story 3. isn't that non-canon for the purpose of naming debian releases?
12:55:18 <b_jonas> I'm not into Toy Story, I don't know how many films the fans consider good
13:01:38 <ais523> b_jonas: I think they used all the Toy Story 1 characters before moving onto Toy Story 2, not sure though
13:06:42 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense/End]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163240&oldid=159029 * PrySigneToFry * (+10) Change the link to a game
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13:10:59 <b_jonas> oh, stretch is apparently from Toy Story 3
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13:11:46 <b_jonas> and trixie. so Toy Story 3 is definitely allowed.
13:12:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense]]": not esolang-related, and edits by other users are destroying any purpose this group of subpages might originally have had
13:12:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense/1]]": not esolang-related, and edits by other users are destroying any purpose this group of subpages might originally have had
13:12:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense/2]]": not esolang-related, and edits by other users are destroying any purpose this group of subpages might originally have had
13:12:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense/End]]": not esolang-related, and edits by other users are destroying any purpose this group of subpages might originally have had
13:15:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163241&oldid=135794 * Ais523 * (+205) /* Policy summary */ clarify that it's inappropriate to use this website to host things unrelated to its purpose I suspect this has always been a rule, but not everyone seems to realise it exists
13:16:19 <ais523> I think I've seen at least two Toy Story films, but don't really remember
13:16:31 <ais523> they weren't particularly inspiring or memorable
13:17:25 <ais523> I assume that after running out of Toy Story characters, the next generalisation would be characters in other films by Pixar
13:17:55 <ais523> although maybe that would be unacceptable and there would be a need to persuade Pixar to release another Toy Story film, just so that Debian could continue
13:21:13 <b_jonas> I don't think that works well because most of the time Pixar sequels of sequels are bad
13:21:36 <ais523> well it'd still let Debian continue even if nobody watched it?
13:22:04 <b_jonas> naah, the characters introduced it wouldn't really count as canonical Toy Story characters
13:22:48 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163242&oldid=161992 * PrySigneToFry * (-38) Deleting a red link
13:23:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163243&oldid=163097 * C++DSUCKER * (+20)
13:23:28 <b_jonas> also I think they should pick a franchise from a publisher that's less aggressive with defending their trademarks than Disney.
13:23:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163244&oldid=162531 * PrySigneToFry * (+107) /* ... */ new section
13:24:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163245&oldid=163243 * C++DSUCKER * (+0)
13:25:59 <ais523> I think Disney didn't own Pixar at the time Debian started?
13:26:37 <b_jonas> but Disney owns it now, and they probably care more about *recent* trademarks, like from a new film
13:26:52 <ais523> also, things are only trademarked in a particular context, Disney is unlikely to trademark their characters in the context of computer software
13:27:06 <ais523> maybe they would though
13:27:33 <b_jonas> I wonder if Debian could get a cheap license with some publisher that allows them to use certain names and maybe even release release-specific merchandise, for some cut of the merch income to the publisher
13:28:00 <ais523> this lead to a high-profile incident when Apple the music label and Apple the computer manufacturer coexisted for years, then the computer manufacturer released iTunes and ended up intruding on the trademark context
13:28:03 <ais523> I forget how that one was resolved
13:29:22 <ais523> Wikipedia says that the computer company purchased the name from the music company, eventually
13:31:13 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer
13:59:35 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0 3rd time]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163246&oldid=159032 * Hotcrystal0 * (+7152)
14:04:27 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163247&oldid=163223 * Hotcrystal0 * (-1389)
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14:45:21 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163248&oldid=163238 * Pifrited * (+186) /* yxdyxxryi Lang */
14:50:16 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163249&oldid=163248 * Pifrited * (+130)
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15:26:44 <korvo> Debian could always switch to year-oriented release numbers. It's not like anybody's going to confuse them for Ubuntu.
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16:00:33 <ais523> well, "trixie" does sound a lot like an Ubuntu version name – it isn't actually an adjective, but some of their adjectives are really obscure and it sounds like it could be an adjective that one hasn't heard of (it has the right sound in the ending, at least)
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17:18:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MAKSZAB * New user account
17:18:59 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, it's just spelled wrong, it would be "tricksy" if it's not a proper noun
17:19:20 <ais523> oh right, that is an adjective
17:20:13 <ais523> Ubuntu isn't far off T at the moment, maybe they could pick the phonetically same name as Debian
17:20:30 <b_jonas> I don't think they would want to
17:25:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163250&oldid=163105 * MAKSZAB * (+213)
17:26:59 <esolangs> [[User:MAKSZAB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163251 * MAKSZAB * (+59) I exist
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17:42:23 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163252&oldid=163122 * Ractangle * (-5)
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17:57:03 <esolangs> [[MarkupL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163253&oldid=163195 * Ractangle * (-296)
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18:07:16 <esolangs> [[Stuley]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163254&oldid=152503 * Ractangle * (-113)
18:07:49 <esolangs> [[Stuley]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163255&oldid=163254 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Syntax */
18:41:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Spellblocks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163256 * WarzokERNST135 * (+134) Created page with "Did you make this on penguinmod ~~~~"
18:44:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Spellblocks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163257&oldid=163256 * WarzokERNST135 * (-134) Blanked the page
18:44:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * WarzokERNST135 * moved [[Talk:Spellblocks]] to [[Dfhjdsbfjhdsgfsdjhfbsdhhfbnshd]]: I dunno how to delete
18:45:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Spellblocks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163260&oldid=163259 * WarzokERNST135 * (-44) Blanked the page
19:04:58 <esolangs> [[Witsaff]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163261 * Corbin * (+3810) Stub an old note. Trying to clean out my old folders.
19:56:10 <esolangs> [[Witsaff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163262&oldid=163261 * Corbin * (+3861) All of the syntax in my notes. Examples are cribbed from partial descriptions of Zelda 3, Metroid 3, and Chrono Trigger which I drafted in 2023 and given here to public domain.
20:53:23 <esolangs> [[Fusion Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163263&oldid=95386 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Implementations */ mini
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21:19:25 <esolangs> [[Witsaff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163264&oldid=163262 * Corbin * (+3824) Semantics. This is transposed from how I originally imagined it but I don't think it matters. I need to double-check some stuff before I finish this section, but it's mostly done.
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21:21:13 <esolangs> [[Fusion Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163265&oldid=163263 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Implementations */ oops
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22:40:35 <b_jonas> wait, C23 gained the machine fixed integer types of arbitrary fixed number of bits width (not necessarily a whole number of bytes) from zig? I hadn't heard of this until today
22:40:43 <b_jonas> that's from zig, isn't it?
22:41:40 <zzo38> I don't know if it is; I thought it was LLVM
22:42:12 <b_jonas> the docs at https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/c-status.html#c23 say that it's supported by gcc 14
22:44:37 <fizzie> Yeah, although BITINT_MAXWIDTH ("maximum width of a bit-precise integer type") need only be "greater than or equal to the value of `ULLONG_WIDTH`", so they may not be especially wide.
22:44:54 <fizzie> GCC (at least on x86-64) makes it a lot higher, though.
22:45:05 <b_jonas> am I crazy if I think the best use of these is that now we kind of have a signed bool type? (as in, the true value is -1 if you cast it to a wider signed or unsigned type; though they don't behave like the bool type when casting *from* larger integer types to them)?
22:46:00 <fizzie> Rather lamely, they don't allow a signed _BitInt of width 1.
22:46:46 <int-e> https://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/n2763.pdf primarily cites FPGAs, doesn't mention Zig at all
22:46:51 <fizzie> C23 6.7.3.1p4: "The value of /N/ for `unsigned _BitInt` shall be greater than or equal to 1. The value of /N/ for `_BitInt` shall be greater than or equal to 2."
22:46:56 <fizzie> I think it's a shame too.
22:50:44 <b_jonas> I care much more about C++ and rust than C, but Boost Endian only provides types whose width are the multiple of a byte, and Boost Multiprecision doesn't provide signed types without memory overhead, even though bit-precise should be implementible well enough in C++ without much language support
22:52:46 <b_jonas> as far as I can tell ziglang should have signed 1-byte integer. it doesn't explicitly mention this, but it does say arbitrary bit-width signed and unsigned, and mentions u1 in examples a few times
22:55:21 <b_jonas> I'm generally *against* notionally packing multiple small integers together into a struct or bit-granular array with language support, so I don't really want to use these for that, but I would like signed and unsigned bool types ephemeral in computations. we do kind of have them in C and C++ already, because I can write -(a<b) to get a signed int with value 0 or -1 in either (though the underlying type
22:57:11 <b_jonas> I should look at what else C23 adds
23:01:01 <fizzie> There's quite a few things; it's definitely a lot bigger change than C18 was.
23:01:03 <b_jonas> by the way, I wish the C++ standard added a standard type alias template for std::complex so that you can refer to it by a name that doesn't clash with the C keyword
23:01:39 <b_jonas> using the word complex for both is so stupid
23:02:19 <b_jonas> I don't think there's such a thing as C18. there's C17, which is basically the same as C11, similar to C90 vs C89
23:02:34 <b_jonas> I'll assume that was a typo
23:02:49 <fizzie> The official name includes 2018.
23:03:02 <fizzie> But I agree it's much more commonly, and somewhat officially, called C17.
23:04:03 <fizzie> C23 likewise became ISO/IEC 9899:2024.
23:07:01 <fizzie> One C23 feature, which probably won't even be particularly useful in practice but which I've wished to become a thing for long, is that you can now put storage class specifiers in compound literals, and specifically do something like `&(static const struct whatever){1, 2, 3}` to get an address of an unnamed object of static storage duration even inside a function.
23:45:34 <zzo38> I mostly still use gnu89, although I sometimes use gnu99 in case I use declarations of variables in the heading of a for loop in the definition of a macro. I do not have a compiler that supports the #embed command, although I might use that too if I did have it (although avoiding it also has the advantage that it can work even if you do not have the newest version of the C compiler)
23:46:32 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that C23 (or was it a different version?) that specifies explicitly that if an initialization specifies {} with nothing in between then it will be zero, because older versions don't even though some C compilers will do that anyways. I and other people did not know that it does not already mean that.
23:47:16 <zzo38> They say that you will have to write {0} instead, but that isn't very good if the type is zero length array or something else that you cannot have the first item which is zero, so {} would be better
23:52:15 <fizzie> C23 does explicitly allow `{}` as a universal zero initializer, yes. Though `{0}` is also valid for any type in standard C; zero-length arrays are a nonstandard extension, and (because you're allowed to omit braces when initializing nested struct/union/array types, and 0 is a valid initializer for both arithmetic and pointer types) there's no type that wouldn't allow 0 as the first item in an
23:52:28 <fizzie> Versions before C23 didn't allow `{}` as a matter of syntax.
00:05:46 <esolangs> [[Arrow (language)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163266 * BestCoder * (+1553) Created page with "Arrow is a language that appearently has its name already used so i added "(language)" but heres how it works: == Rules == the only thing that is in this language is arrows (->) (and of course parenthesis for ambiguity) the syntax arrows can be is this: A
00:09:07 <esolangs> [[Arrow (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163267&oldid=163266 * BestCoder * (+155)
00:34:40 <esolangs> [[Arrow (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163268&oldid=163267 * BestCoder * (+19) /* Types of arrows */
00:36:02 <esolangs> [[Arrow (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163269&oldid=163268 * BestCoder * (+94) /* How they work */
00:39:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163270&oldid=162379 * Hotcrystal0 * (+349) /* About the new addition to Esolang:Policy */ new section
00:40:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163271&oldid=163270 * Hotcrystal0 * (+167)
00:45:01 <esolangs> [[Arrow (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163272&oldid=163269 * BestCoder * (+120)
00:45:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:ARGENTOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163273&oldid=72289 * Hotcrystal0 * (+392)
00:46:18 <korvo> Ugh, my maths in my Witsaff notes is junk. Or at least the arithmetic's wrong. I understand the underlying appeal to Bayes' rule but I'm going to have to re-derive the whole thing.
00:49:47 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/Numbered polls in drone server]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163274&oldid=159646 * Hotcrystal0 * (-689) Replaced content with "Im replacing this page with something else soon"
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01:00:28 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries/One per generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163275&oldid=159293 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
01:01:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163276&oldid=163271 * Corbin * (+623) /* About the new addition to Esolang:Policy */ Give an opinion that nobody asked for.
01:04:16 <korvo> Gonna start being bolder in making people pages. If I see the same person showing up in two or three different reference contexts, I'm going to look up who they are and see whether they're relevant to us.
01:04:49 <korvo> Well, okay, right now I'm gonna go to dinner. But later.
01:19:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: does that mean you only declare variables at the start of blocks?
01:20:01 <b_jonas> because that's the first thing that trips me up if I try to write C90
01:22:57 <b_jonas> korvo: oh yeah, we should probably have one for Fabrice Bellard and one for Óscar Toledo
01:23:33 <b_jonas> also one for perlbot (or for buubot3)
01:27:45 <b_jonas> hmm, do I have too many esoteric programming heroes?
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02:04:27 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163277&oldid=159833 * Calculus is fun * (+35) Added distinguish template
03:16:32 <esolangs> [[Pointing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163278&oldid=163277 * Calculus is fun * (+38) /* Expressions */
03:31:12 <zzo38> b_jonas: I do only declare variables at the start of blocks (unless I forgot some that I might not have done, but I think I only declare at the start of blocks), and also outside of any function, but which one do you mean, if it means I only declare variables at the start of blocks?
03:56:21 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163279&oldid=163231 * Pifrited * (+382)
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04:09:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163280&oldid=163276 * Ais523 * (+296) /* About the new addition to Esolang:Policy */ nontrivial cellular automata can be viewed as esolangs
04:10:03 <ais523> I hate the way I've effectively become dictator of Esolang
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04:51:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163281&oldid=163280 * I am islptng * (+178)
05:00:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163282&oldid=163281 * Ais523 * (+1264) /* Why did you delete User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense? It's in a user page! */ because this site is not a general-purpose discussion forum
05:32:14 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163283&oldid=158257 * Aadenboy * (+0) fix parentheses
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06:38:39 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean the wiki?
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07:38:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163284&oldid=163245 * MAKSZAB * (+11)
07:44:18 <esolangs> [[Aaaa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163285 * MAKSZAB * (+306) Created page with "aaaa is an [[esolang]] created by the esolang wiki user [[MAKSZAB]]. The point of the esolang is that in it you can only scream. This page will be edited later, for now here's a [https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jee8tgvax6VwoMqxfUS_IlEGkl1sQQbX?usp=sharing link to th
07:45:40 <esolangs> [[Aaaa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163286&oldid=163285 * MAKSZAB * (+5)
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09:44:46 <esolangs> [[FALSE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163287&oldid=163113 * B jonas * (+12) /* See also */ [[Mouse]]
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10:12:55 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163288&oldid=162721 * C++DSUCKER * (+34)
10:13:35 <esolangs> [[R + S]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163289&oldid=163288 * C++DSUCKER * (+0)
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12:35:08 <esolangs> [[Dt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163290 * C++DSUCKER * (+1539) Created page with "Dt is a real computation language, capable of solving differential equations to infinite precision. it is also rather confusing. == Specification == {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! What !! Explanation |- | <code> func vars:</code> || Define a function func wi
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13:00:26 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1331.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
13:15:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Albanian Laundry Machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163291 * Hotcrystal0 * (+353) Created page with "<blockquote>Prints "Why couldn't the trans man eat meat? Because he was a her before"</blockquote> wtf ~~~~"
13:17:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Albanian Laundry Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163292&oldid=163291 * Hotcrystal0 * (+12)
13:17:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Albanian Laundry Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163293&oldid=163292 * Hotcrystal0 * (+33)
13:20:44 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163294&oldid=163209 * Hotcrystal0 * (+48)
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14:12:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * MAKSZAB * uploaded "[[File:Aaaa.png]]": The logo for the aaaa esolang by MAKSZAB
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17:23:50 <esolangs> [[Aaaa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163296&oldid=163286 * MAKSZAB * (+2801)
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19:52:40 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163297&oldid=163150 * Hotcrystal0 * (+201)
19:55:40 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163298&oldid=163297 * Hotcrystal0 * (+107)
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20:24:15 <esolangs> [[Witsaff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163299&oldid=163264 * Corbin * (+3541) /* Semantics */ Everything in my notes that I have re-proven, double-checked, or freshly derived.
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21:23:24 <esolangs> [[Witsaff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163300&oldid=163299 * Corbin * (+2811) /* Semantics */ Organize. Add subsections on stationary distributions and logic.
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23:58:41 <esolangs> [[Witsaff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163301&oldid=163300 * Corbin * (+1215) /* Semantics */ Fully work the nastiest sort of example that can occur, or at least the nastiest example I've imagined.
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01:30:02 <esolangs> [[Witsaff/Appendix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163302 * Corbin * (+1034) Add a script that reproduces the non-trivial simulation-based result on the main page.
02:23:37 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163303&oldid=163239 * Junkshipp * (+764)
03:45:16 <esolangs> [[CWarp2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163304&oldid=161455 * WoodyFan3412 * (-3662) Blanked the page
03:46:02 <esolangs> [[User:WoodyFan3412]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163305&oldid=161450 * WoodyFan3412 * (-21) /* Projects that i've made: */
03:46:37 <esolangs> [[User:WoodyFan3412]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163306&oldid=163305 * WoodyFan3412 * (+13) /* Project Descriptions */
04:29:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Obscure]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163307 * DifferentDance8 * (+383) Created page with "What should we do with this page's "implementation" status (as well as all the other languages where their only impementations were on Glitch)? Because TECHNICALLY at ONE stage in time it WAS implemented, but now that glitch stopped doing hosting, it's no lo
05:04:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Obscure]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163308&oldid=163307 * Corbin * (+557) Good question!
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05:53:51 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163309 * Placeholding * (+16015) Created page with "{{lowercase}} :''gur yvsr'' is typically stylized as all lowercase. ''gur yvsr'' is the very first esolang created by [[User:Placeholding]]. It is inspired by [[Brainfuck]] and (slightly inspired by) [[Emmental]], though it is not as confusing as either of them (
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06:12:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * M1n3c4rt * New user account
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07:57:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163310&oldid=163250 * M1n3c4rt * (+104)
08:22:40 <APic> Celebrate Zaraday! Hail Eris! 😇
08:53:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hiiragiaoi * New user account
09:00:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163311&oldid=163310 * Hiiragiaoi * (+126)
09:01:16 <esolangs> [[User:Hiiragiaoi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163312 * Hiiragiaoi * (+24) Created page with "https://github.com/lxern"
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09:16:48 <esolangs> [[Nullscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163313 * Hiiragiaoi * (+4290) Created page with "MediaWikiNullScript '''NullScript''' is an experimental functional programming language centered around the concept of "nothingness." Unlike traditional programming languages that have a single null value, it is characterized by distinguishing between four differ
09:17:33 <esolangs> [[Nullscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163314&oldid=163313 * Hiiragiaoi * (-63)
09:19:55 <strerror> BQP more accurately describes: what we'd like to be able to compute, but it's not obvious yet whether we can actually do it
09:23:18 <strerror> The weirdness theorems (Bell, Holevo, etc) are probably right though--I think Aaronson once made the point that, if these laws didn't hold, physics would probably be extra weird in a way that would allow for even more computation
09:29:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Insulation * New user account
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09:43:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163315&oldid=163311 * Insulation * (+334)
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09:50:32 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163316&oldid=162749 * Insulation * (+94)
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10:31:12 <esolangs> [[User:Insulation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163317 * Insulation * (+91) Created page with "'''HELLLLOOOOOOOO''' I like breathing oxygen and nitrogen. I also expel carbon dioxide gas."
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12:54:30 <esolangs> [[~X]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163318 * Insulation * (+1814) One instruction esoteric language I think euguehehfifk
12:57:18 <ais523> a bit offtopic, but potentially big tech news: https://github.blog/news-insights/company-news/goodbye-github/ GitHub's CEO is leaving, and instead of acting as an autonomus company owned by Microsoft, it's being moved to be run by "Microsoft's CoreAI organization"
12:57:41 <ais523> I try to avoid using Github as much as possible, but am expecting major consequences anyway
12:58:44 <esolangs> [[~X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163319&oldid=163318 * Insulation * (+69)
13:07:23 <int-e> ais523: This news irritates me because I don't perceive it as a change. The AI focus was there when MS acquired GitHub. It's just officially under the AI umbrella now which I suspect is mainly for accounting (GH revenue becomes AI revenue).
13:07:51 <ais523> int-e: I agree that there's been a clear increasing AI focus there recently anyway
13:08:11 <ais523> but it was possible to interpret it as a side business, at least that's what I was hoping it was
13:08:48 <ais523> your accounting trick theory seems reasonable, although I'd at least hope investors would see through it
13:09:15 <ais523> anyway, the main consequence I see from this is that if Github becomes an AI platform rather than repository host, everyone may have ot move
13:09:56 <int-e> The CoPilot integration is quite obnoxious. (I have several cosmetic ublock filters for this already, and I hardly use the github frontend actively (to contribute, as opposed to browsing repositories))
13:10:49 <ais523> I found an option in the github settings to disable Copilot from the UI, which made things a lot better
13:10:54 <ais523> but it probably only works while logged in
13:11:07 <ais523> (do the AI features even work while logged out? they are at least advertised while logged out)
13:11:14 <int-e> I agree that it's symbolic enough that it might trigger an exodus of free software and open source developers.
13:11:40 <int-e> But I reserve the right to find it silly ;)
13:14:13 <ais523> I suspect there is an untapped market for things sold as "does not include AI, blockchain, or smart features"
13:15:57 <int-e> There is, but is it big enough to offset the additional income from adding this crap (with the implied data collection and tracking)? (It doesn't really matter whether this added income is imaginary or real.)
13:17:05 <ais523> hmm, it may depend on the seller in that case – some are likely to value imaginary tracking income higher than others
13:17:57 <int-e> . o O ( How many non-smart TV models are there these days? )
13:18:18 <int-e> (Sorry for the unfair question.)
13:18:29 * int-e should ask about fridges or washing machines to make it fair.
13:19:32 <ais523> int-e: that's what made me think there was an untapped market, I remember hearing someone complain about trying to buy one
13:19:33 <int-e> (Smart TVs are special in that the added value of using them for streaming video is real. It's just awful that the same technology is ripe for abuse.)
13:20:11 <ais523> earlier today I was reading a number of UK government reports that were trying to predict the consequences of increasing ownership of smart fridges and washing machines
13:23:11 <ais523> they had two main concerns: a) cybersecurity, b) the potential that the washing machines would more often run while everyone in the house was asleep, making the consequences worse if they malfunctioned
13:23:35 <ais523> b) this doesn't apply to fridges, which don't get a choice about what times of day they run
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13:54:49 <strerror> One difficulty with such an untapped market is, it's hard to prove that your product lacks such a feature that would be profitable for you to add
13:54:58 <fizzie> I feel there's definitely been an uptick in "creative" things (like stock video clip sites) advertising themselves as 100% AI-free.
13:55:06 <wib_jonas> it's large scale free webhosting. I don't think most users will suddenly migrate away just because microsoft reorganized it to another division
13:55:43 <fizzie> And Steam game pages have an AI disclosure statement.
13:56:36 <strerror> ( re TVs specifically: https://www.humansecurity.com/learn/blog/badbox-2-0-the-sequel-no-one-wanted/ )
13:58:44 <wib_jonas> TV is different, but I very much hope that non-smart fridges and washing machines exist, because if the ones that I use die I want to be able to buy new ones. in fact, both my brother and my parents bought new (non-smart) washing machines in the last few years, so they should still exist. wow, I have the *oldest* washing machine in the family!
13:58:45 <wib_jonas> though it's still not old, it's only roughly eleven years old.
14:02:31 <ais523> <strerror> One difficulty with such an untapped market is, it's hard to prove that your product lacks such a feature that would be profitable for you to add ← you probably don't have to prove it, you can just advertise it (assuming it's true) and many customers will rely on you not wanting to risk getting sued for false advertising
14:02:32 <fizzie> We bought a new non-smart fridge freezer recently, because the previous one stopped cooling anything down, which is pretty key functionality.
14:02:46 <wib_jonas> TVs are different for two reasons. I don't have one and don't want to buy one, whereas I love having a washing machine and fridge and wouldn't want to live without them. Regardless of "smart", televisions are effectively subsidized by Youtube and Netflix and other content providers paying the TV companies to make the TV come with prominent
14:02:46 <wib_jonas> dedicated buttons for those services on the remote control, and prominent menu entries in the UI. I don't think that sort of advertising deal happens to fridges or washing machines.
14:03:20 <ais523> fizzie: what functionality do they even have, other than cooling their contents, defrosting themselves, and illuminating their contents only when the door is open?
14:03:59 <fizzie> Not much. But the light still worked, so that's something.
14:04:07 <fizzie> It's like a display case for food at that point.
14:04:27 <ais523> the papers I was reading this morning said that only about half of smart TV owners had installed them in a way that allowed any of the smart features to work
14:04:36 <fizzie> Do they have any fridges with glass doors? That seems like a terrible idea, but maybe.
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14:05:05 <ais523> fizzie: I've seen a fridge, in a video or on TV, which had a variable-opacity door, I forget what caused it to become less opaque
14:05:15 <ais523> this struck me as a ridiculous feature even at the time
14:05:16 <int-e> fizzie: well they have thos in some grocery stores ;)
14:05:20 <fizzie> Our wine cooler (which we don't use, except temporarily when the fridge broke down, because it goes down to 6 °C or so, which is not too bad) has a transparent door.
14:05:42 <ais523> but it may have been featured in the video due to being unusual rather than due to being a good idea
14:05:44 <int-e> I'm sure there's a market for that but overall I'd rather have proper insulation.
14:06:09 <ais523> many of the groceries here used to have fridges without doors, some still do
14:06:27 <ais523> but most have added doors to save energy (both in terms of saving the company money and in terms of being good for the environment)
14:06:53 <ais523> I think what happened is that the grocery stores would have wanted to put the doors on all along, to save money, but were worried about the customers finding it inconvenient
14:07:09 <ais523> and advertised the environmental-friendless as an attempt to justify the increased inconvenience to the customers
14:07:34 <wib_jonas> strerror: it would be difficult for a hosting service like github. for a fridge or washing machine it's not hard, because fridges can come with no integrated electronics, and washing machines can come with just a small microcontroller clearly too small for anything "smart". same for stoves and ovens, dishwashers, microwaves, vacuum cleaners, audio
14:07:35 <wib_jonas> amps, etc. admittedly there's the slight complication that for some of these you need some basic expertise or a permit to disassemble them safely in order to physically verify that there's no complicated integrated electronics, but it's not a huge hurdle.
14:07:56 <ais523> ooh, now I remember: when I was much younger, there was a nearby supermarket which had an entire refrigerated aisle, it had curtains at the ends (that you could walk through) in order to reduce the amount of heat that escaped from it
14:10:10 <wib_jonas> except possibly for the fridge and microwave (and CRT televisions), you need the same expertise or permit to disconnect the appliance when you want to get rid of the device.
14:10:38 <wib_jonas> to be clear, this is for disassembling *destructively* to verify that there's no fancy electronics in it.
14:11:41 <strerror> Amazon was sued over Alexa's collection of voice data; it doesn't seem to have left much of a dent: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2023/06/hey-alexa-what-are-you-doing-my-data
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14:12:58 <ais523> strerror: wow, that's dated 2023, I expected it to be earlier
14:13:24 <ais523> oh, I see, this is not just about recording, but about using the recordings to train an AI
14:13:32 <ais523> …that's even stupider than I expected
14:15:36 <ais523> it may be that the court case is still ongoing, given that it was only a couple of years ago – court cases often take longer to resolve than that
14:16:06 <strerror> A small vendor also can't be ordered to un-delete collected data because they'll likely have sold the data already. A large vendor at least could be expected to protect "their" data from further exposure. I think that's one reason why people trust larger companies
14:16:58 <strerror> Though if Amazon had ever sent the data out (e.g. for contractors to label) it would also no longer be possible for them to destroy it
14:16:59 <ais523> I've been sort-of following https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68117049/the-new-york-times-company-v-microsoft-corporation/ which seems to be one of the main court cases about AI training data
14:17:20 <DOS_User_webchat> tbh even my own site forbids ai scrape: https://ihatetehbsod.neocities.org/license.txt (thanks to jadeharley for the license btw)
14:17:24 <ais523> (the URL is a bit misleading: OpenAI and Microsoft are both defendants)
14:17:57 <DOS_User_webchat> i dont know why anyone would want to have their stuff used to train ai
14:18:14 <strerror> wib_jonas: I used to think so, but there are now bluetooth/wifi chips the size of a thumb, e.g. https://www.espressif.com/en/products/socs/esp32
14:18:48 <strerror> The datasheet claims it has a built-in antenna, though in practice you could just use the fridge as the antenna
14:21:12 <strerror> ais523: yes there were earlier ones, but duckduckgo's swamped with recency clickbait and I can't find those now
14:25:39 <strerror> ( from 2019, maybe the one you're thinking of: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone-listening-to-you-on-alexa-a-global-team-reviews-audio )
14:26:44 <ais523> strerror: paywalled, but I can figure out the story from the headline – that does seem about right
14:27:59 <DOS_User_webchat> strerror: oh the esp32? yeah, heard many good stuff about it. unfortunately all im getting out of my parents and school is an arduino and the crappiest one currently being sold
14:29:05 <int-e> . o O ( Surely the ToS say that they "may store audio for training purposes" and that means that they *do* store it because storage is cheap :P And "training" will be interpreted to allow training AIs. )
14:29:17 <ais523> <wib_jonas> to be clear, this is for disassembling *destructively* to verify that there's no fancy electronics in it. ← I had thoughts of trying to bootstrap a compiler starting from a platform which was too old and low-powered to be AI-complete, as a method of avoiding AI-complete trusting trust attacks
14:29:26 <ais523> although it was mostly as an esoidea rather than because I expected it to be useful
14:29:52 <ais523> nowadays, though, it is just about possible to imagine a compiler that contains an AI for inserting itself into new versions of the same compiler, + any other compiler that it builds
14:30:36 <ais523> <int-e> And "training" will be interpreted to allow training AIs. ← oh no, this is too plausible a possibility
14:31:34 <APic> Another Theory exists that states this has already happened. ;=P
14:31:37 <APic> Welcome to the Matrices!
14:35:43 <wib_jonas> strerror: 6 millimeters size and low power consumption. yes, I think you're right, that may be possible to hide. certainly in something like a modern washing machine, where you expect a microcontroller and decent power consumption from mains electricity.
14:40:40 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, that's pretty realistic. you could start from one of these old laptops with a 286 CPU and a few megabytes of hard disk and very little additional storage. I used one of those around 1995, so it shouldn't be impossible to obtain one. But I don't see what you'd use it for. You couldn't just copy the data to a modern computer without
14:40:41 <wib_jonas> reintroducing the same trust problems.
14:41:32 <int-e> APic: I assume it's happening. Not sure whether it would hold up in court but who's gonna have standing to sue?
14:42:16 <wib_jonas> "inserting itself into new versions of the same compiler, + any other compiler that it builds" => that's not even the biggest harm you could do. a proper virus could instead modify other executables that your user has write access to, even if they aren't created by this compiler.
14:42:45 <int-e> wib_jonas: Sure, you'd do that too.
14:43:52 <int-e> But the Reflections on Trusting Trust lecture's point was that just because you compiled the compiler from scratch doesn't mean your compiler is going to be fine.
14:43:58 <wib_jonas> I've been thinking of that sort of malware for reasons unrelated to AI
14:44:30 <int-e> So the self-insertion into compilers is a crucial part of persistence.
14:45:28 <wib_jonas> int-e: the compiler needn't have to be involved, the malware part could come from a library that you're using, like a libc component.
14:45:37 <ais523> at least current AI probably isn't good enough to make that sort of malware – and even if it were, it would need either network connections or to store a local model in the executable, either of which I would expect to be detected
14:46:04 <ais523> so it probably isn't a realistic threat unless programs generally become so bloated that it becomes hard to tell whether they contain an AI or not
14:46:12 <int-e> wib_jonas: okay, the point is that even if you audit all your source code... you may still not be fine
14:46:25 <wib_jonas> ais523: doesn't have to be in the executable itself, the executable could have just a stub that loads most of the other parts from data files that you aren't paying much attention to
14:46:52 <wib_jonas> disguised as a useful plugin system
14:47:01 <ais523> wib_jonas: yes but if the AI is virally inserting itself into other software it can't expect that other software to ship the same data files
14:47:17 <int-e> I recall a later paper on this, hmm... this one: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html
14:47:30 <ais523> a program with a plugin system may not be suspicious, a compiler that unexpectedly adds a plugin system to its output that didn't appear in the source code would be very suspicious
14:48:09 <int-e> I guess the AI is there to circumvent Rice's theorem.
14:48:39 <int-e> "humans can probably recognize compilers and insert a backdoor, so an AI can do it too"
14:49:23 <APic> Good old Schneier ♥
14:49:46 <int-e> It's not Schneier's paper of course, but his summary is nice.
14:50:27 <wib_jonas> ais523: yeah, I think I have a different method of hiding and propagation in mind, not the classic compiler that inserts something into any executable, but I haven't tried to explain what it is. computers have enough large software components installed that you don't need to embed yourself into small progarms like /bin/cat .
14:50:38 <ais523> hmm, with a big software project it may be hard for humans to recognise whether it's a compiler, or in some cases even to define it
14:50:44 <ais523> is Chrome (the browser) a compiler, for example?
14:51:37 <wib_jonas> a compiler needn't be involved at all.
14:51:58 <wib_jonas> Chrome probably has a wasm compiler in it, but that's not really relevant.
14:51:58 <ais523> wib_jonas: I was responding to int-e, there, sorry
14:52:10 <int-e> . o O ( Chrome is not not a compiler. )
14:52:38 <korvo> strerror: Yeah, for sure. I don't *like* any of the no-go theorems; that's just how linear algebra is. Similarly, I'm not a big fan of complex-valued Hilbert spaces, but it's the unique viable model.
14:53:41 <korvo> ais523: I dumped yet another one of my old TAS-theory projects onto the wiki. The [[Witsaff]] language is a proposed sanity-introducing device for computing properties of randomizers.
14:53:45 <wib_jonas> I mean back when that idea came from, compilers were some of the largest programs on a system. that was still true around 2002 when I was making a better version of my 1.44 megabyte boot DOS floppy filled with the most useful utilities I could fit. there's a reason that one has a pascal compiler and not a C compiler. I would have wanted a C
14:53:45 <wib_jonas> compiler, but any C compiler I had access to wouldn't have fit.
14:54:04 <korvo> I don't know whether it's at all interesting to you, but it's yet another thing that I suspect TAS folks will want to see demo'd before they embrace it.
14:55:06 <ais523> korvo: is it about randomizers or TASes? I am interested in both but consider them largely separate topics
14:55:21 <wib_jonas> and the compiler already has a linker that knows something about the executable format used on the platform, so back then it used to make sense to hide something malicious in a compiler.
14:55:25 <ais523> most of the fun of a randomizer is in not knowing where the items are advance, doing it as a TAS completely defeats that
14:55:44 <ais523> (really, a TAS could probably luck-manipulate the items into being where it wanted them)
14:56:06 <ais523> I am a very experienced watched of Metroid Prime 2 randomizers, to the extent that I can often work out the logic in my head (although I've never actually played the game)
14:56:41 <korvo> ais523: The linked article, "a compositional theory of TAS", was written in the same week. Witsaff is for randomizers, composition is for TASs, and perhaps they separate into two distinct topics. But in my head it's all one big pile of goop.
14:57:13 <ais523> anyway, many of the randomizers have their logic files publicly available
14:57:31 <korvo> The link is that many randomizer players use a "tracker", an assistive tool which decodes the logic and enumerates the remaining checks. Witsaff could be used to generate trackers.
14:57:38 <ais523> so it may make more sense to write an importer for them then try to use a new feature
14:57:55 <ais523> korvo: oh, that doesn't even really count as tool-assisted speedrunning
14:58:09 <ais523> it is so much less powerful than actual TAS tools are
14:58:33 <korvo> ais523: I'm not quite good enough for Zelda 3 tourneys, but Zelda 3 randomizer play is expected to be tracker-less. I presume that Witsaff-generated trackers could be good enough to count as cheating.
14:58:33 <APic> What does TAS stand for? TASBot?
14:58:38 <ais523> a big difference is that TAS tools are normally able to evaluate hypotheticals about what would happen if the runner gave certain inputs, without actually changing the state of the game
14:58:52 <korvo> APic: "Tool-assisted speedrunning". Any kind of speedrunning that is augmented beyond mere athletics.
14:58:55 <ais523> APic: it's the same TAS as in TASbot: it stands for "tool-assisted speedrun" or "tool-assisted superplay"
14:59:10 <ais523> but I disagree with korvo's definition
14:59:44 <ais523> https://tasvideos.org/WelcomeToTASVideos is a good introduciton
15:00:28 <korvo> ais523: Sure, and that's fair. AFAICT your career in TAS has been about quickly putting the console into a particular state, and there's nothing wrong with that framing. I'm probably overly-focused on athletics here.
15:00:30 <ais523> it links to https://tasvideos.org/Glossary#ToolAssistedSpeedrunTas which might be better
15:01:10 <ais523> korvo: the sort of speedrun you're thinking of is almost universally considered to be not tool-assisted, even if there are separate programs helping
15:01:30 <ais523> if the input is all done by humans in realtime, and there are no programs directly looking at the internal state of the game, then it's usually considered unassisted
15:02:09 <ais523> programs deducing the internal state of the game are normally accepted even in unassisted runs, as long as they don't interact with it directly (this is probably exploitable but I don't think I've seen any successful attempts to exploit it yet)
15:03:23 <ais523> actually, a great example is Super Mario Bros. 1 – the pseudorandom number generator for that game is time-based, and the top runners have memorised all the possible random number patterns, so they can tell what their time is by looking at the (pseudorandom) actions of the final boss and knowing how it would act based on what their time is
15:03:59 <int-e> ...heh. infer random seed from world, use that to run a copy of the game in parallel...
15:04:04 <ais523> (correction: not every possible one, just all the ones that could happen based on the plausible values for their finishing time)
15:04:16 <ais523> int-e: https://pellsson.github.io/
15:04:41 <int-e> "generally accepted" -- to me this sounds like the kind of thing that each speedrunning community comes to their own conclusion on.
15:04:57 <ais523> yes, there is no official arbiter of speedrunning rules
15:05:10 <ais523> but there are plenty of observable common patterns
15:06:17 <int-e> Minecraft is very visible and has (reluctantly?) allowed "calculators" for predicting, uh whatever these underground things with Nether portals are called.
15:06:31 <int-e> So that's a point in your favor that I'm aware of :P
15:06:45 <wib_jonas> ais523 => sure, but some trackers or autosplitters or practice tools do read (and sometimes modify) the internal state of old the game. For old console games this is done either through a custom cart or emulation. For new games they just modify the code of the game natively. more importantly, there's often a wide area of things that are too cheaty
15:06:45 <wib_jonas> to be allowed in real-time speedruns, but not powerful enough to count as tool-assisted.
15:07:40 <ais523> the SWAGGINZZZ thing (which is what my recent link is about) was more impressive than running just one copy of the game, they had a huge cluster of computers rented and used it to fuzz an efficient path through the rest of the game
15:09:31 <ais523> you're right that an exception is often made for autotrackers
15:09:48 <ais523> but those don't technically need memory watch, they could be made to work via screenscraping instead
15:12:18 <korvo> ais523: I think that context matters. If I were able to infer the layout of important items based on the layout of unimportant items, then I'd be worried that that can enable cheating. Whether I do it by RE'ing the RNG or by constructively interfering probabilities shouldn't matter.
15:12:43 <ais523> korvo: so this became something of a major issue in Slay the Spire, I believe
15:12:44 <korvo> But as somebody who is just awful, just truly garbage at Mario 1, I like your example.
15:13:02 <ais523> which allows just that sort of inferring, except that it's sufficiently easy that you can do it in your head
15:13:39 <wib_jonas> an interesting example is the Spelunky 2 True Crown. the True Crown is one of the two joke secret items included in the game. its main drawback is that it forcibly teleports the player every 22 seconds, according to the in-game per-level timer. this teleport can kill you easily by teleporting you into a wall or ground. the True Crown is useful for
15:13:40 <wib_jonas> high-score runs, and those are slow, because they involve staying on most levels for a long time to get as much gold and gems as possible, including digging most of the terrain for gold and gems, and letting the ghost convert almost all gems into diamonds. so for a while when the game was new, some runners used a tool that made beeping sounds
15:13:40 <wib_jonas> shortly before the teleport. but since this was implemented as modifying the game to watch an internal value (rather than watching the timer display on screen), players decided that it's banned for unassisted records.
15:13:53 <ais523> (tl;dr: it has multiple different RNGs, some handling important things and some handling unimportant things, but due to a bug they're all seeded with the same seed, so you can observe the random number pattern on one and it'll be repeated by the others)
15:13:59 <int-e> ais523: walk into a wall to advance the rng for free... pffft.
15:14:24 <int-e> but yeah, pretty close to what I was thinking of
15:15:33 <wib_jonas> multiple RNGs used for different purposes accidentally seeded with the same seed? wow, I hadn't heard of that in a real context, only as a theoretical thing that you must avoid.
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15:16:42 <ais523> Slay the Spire speedrunners eventually came up with a patch to seed the RNG properly
15:16:59 <ais523> or, may have been challenge runners rather than speedrunners, it's still much the same community
15:17:00 <wib_jonas> wait, walk into a wall to advance the rng? that's not a thing in Slay the Spire, is it? walking to advance RNG is for nethack or Mario 64 or others
15:17:15 <ais523> wib_jonas: I think int-e was referencing NetHack
15:17:15 <korvo> Minecraft used to be worse. Back during the alpha/beta days, it used one global RNG for everything. Terrain generation wasn't deterministic at all. They now use algorithms that I introduced in Bravo which set up a per-world RNG and extrapolate from a single noise source, so that chunk order doesn't matter.
15:17:26 <ais523> Slay the Spire doesn't have a walk command
15:18:04 <wib_jonas> WHAT? why would speedrunners have to do the patching? wasn't that game still in active development at the time, with expansions or something, so the maintainer could fix the bug?
15:18:31 <wib_jonas> or did they have to backport to an early version that was no longer maintained because that version was otherwise better?
15:19:16 <int-e> wib_jonas: yeah I was still looking at the nethack link
15:20:15 <ais523> wib_jonas: I don't know the details
15:20:52 <korvo> ais523: There's a link to compositional TAS here. To the extent that a "room" exists as a traversable space, it's a different "room" depending on global state like RNGs. But to the extent that multiple traversals don't actually use that state (say, they can walk or dash on a straight line every time), it's the same "room".
15:20:57 <int-e> wib_jonas: is deterministic generation of chunk a necessary feature in a game like Minecraft?
15:21:25 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, and in addition to Bowser's patterns, less importantly also the patterns of which height the hammer bros are
15:21:35 <int-e> you only play it once anyway, right :P
15:21:57 <ais523> int-e: at least from my experience with NH4, it's an improvement to the game but not completely necessary: you need it to allow multiple players to play "in the same world" which is a feature that many people don't care about but some might
15:22:33 <int-e> oh yeah it will help with keeping multiplayer games consistent
15:23:09 <wib_jonas> int-e: I think for something like Minecraft or Factorio, you can have the server generate chunks whenever someone discovers them and send them to the clients, but deterministic generation is usually easier. Factorio has deterministic and reproducible lazy map generation.
15:23:17 <int-e> To be clear... I think personally I generally want this kind of determinism in the game.
15:23:18 <ais523> either multiplayer, or seeded singleplayer
15:23:32 <int-e> But what I want isn't very objective ;)
15:23:41 <ais523> I went to a lot of effort implementing it in NetHack4 because I thought it was a desirable feature
15:24:50 <wib_jonas> int-e: or the server could even just generate a fresh seed whenever a new map chunk is generated, or periodically for other random events in the game, and send it to the clients who compute the map generation with the same result as the server, and the frequent fresh reseeding would make this unpredictable.
15:26:27 <APic> Multiplayer AceHack really, really pwnd 😌
15:26:31 <wib_jonas> int-e: it's ... complicated. sometimes you want reproducibility, sometimes you don't because eg. you want to practice a section from a savestate and want the randomness to vary after loading the savestate, to train for a real run where you won't be able to predict the state of the randomness because it will change based on your previous inputs.
15:27:08 <APic> How did You do it again? With Threads? Or multiple Processes and IPC?
15:27:24 <ais523> multiple processes communicating primarily via the save file
15:27:36 <ais523> there was a little bit of IPC involved for synchronisation but it mostly wasn't IPC
15:27:39 <wib_jonas> but you could also want reproducibility to organized versus matches in a tournament with the same seed.
15:27:47 <korvo> int-e, wib_jonas: For terrain generation, there's also accessibility concerns. We generally want rolling-hills terrain to be sufficiently smooth that the player can navigate it. This means that e.g. Minecraft terrain has to be generated from some reasonably-continuous noise rather than pure white noise.
15:27:56 <wib_jonas> sort of like duplicate bridge, but without the bridge.
15:28:31 <korvo> There is a Bravo plugin that makes Pandora (from Avatar) floating islands in the sky, and even that plugin uses smoothed noise so that the islands are contiguous and form little spindly land bridges.
15:28:50 <int-e> korvo: yeah I imagine that is challenging if you want to make generation of chunks independent of the order they're generated in
15:29:17 <wib_jonas> korvo: sure, but that doesn't really change much of this. it makes *lazy* terrain generation more difficult (meaning generating parts of a map on demand instead of the whole map in advance), but I don't think it makes determinism at all.
15:29:19 <ais523> I tried implementing a maze generator like that once
15:29:43 <ais523> i.e. trying to make a perfect maze where there's exactly one path from any location to any other, but where the chunks could be generated in any order
15:29:46 <wib_jonas> it does impact determinism a bit, but I don't think that causes too much difficulties
15:29:59 <korvo> wib_jonas: Oh! Of course, yes. Minecraft worlds are far too large to generate offline, or at least too large for me.
15:30:05 <ais523> my solution was technically correct but the edges of the chunks were too obvious in the resulting maze
15:30:25 <ais523> and I'm not sure how to fix it
15:30:34 <int-e> ais523: oh, tricky
15:30:53 <korvo> Actually, we could decompose this into a nicely multi-staged programming problem. We have a stage that defines the world, then a stage that randomizes the terrain, and finally a stage that generates the terrain. The generation can't change the randomization and is determined by it.
15:31:34 <ais523> the problem collapses to that of generating a function from Z² to Z with exactly one local minimum
15:31:57 <ais523> (then you can connect each location to a random adjacent location with lower value and you get a maze)
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15:35:47 <korvo> ais523: If the maze is hard enough then the obviousness could become a feature. One of Zenorogue's non-Euclidean games is "hyperrogue", like Nethack on hyperbolic tiling. The obviousness of the chunks helps the player figure out which region they are in or headed towards.
15:36:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Flashgutten * New user account
15:37:04 <ais523> korvo: so I have been working on a HyperRogue variant/derivative for a few years now
15:37:10 <ais523> I'm very familiar with it
15:37:16 <korvo> Oh, TIL. Good times.
15:38:04 <ais523> (the official version balances very unlike NetHack and is much closer to a puzzle collection than a roguelike – part of my goal with the variant is to move the balance point more towards that of a traditional roguelike)
15:39:43 <ais523> in particular, with the exception of Crossroads and theoretically Ocean, your actions in one land have only minimal effects on how the game plays unless you get at least 25 treasures in a land, which is nearly always an incorrect decision given that optimal strategy typically involves getting only 10 from the lands you visit
15:40:30 <ais523> so the game decomposes into a puzzle gauntlet of "nine lands, Hell, Orb of Yendor" with almost all the puzzles being unrelated to each other, you just have to solve them in order
15:43:03 <ais523> (and when you realise that, playing the game as intended doesn't make much sense any more, you may as well play the puzzles individually)
15:43:23 <ais523> one of the big ideas behind my variant was to swap the 10 and 25
15:43:34 <ais523> which really changes the way the game plays
15:45:23 <korvo> That's a big increase in difficulty, but I can understand the motivation.
15:45:31 <APic> ais523: Can You please give an Example? You mean You should also potentially get the BoH or Shield of Reflection from MinesEnd or Vlad or Jubilex?
15:46:05 <ais523> korvo: a) I agree, and b) I am trying to balance around it (but the game was almost certainly too easy for experienced players beforehand)
15:46:39 <ais523> APic: I'm not sure I understand the question – it looks like you're referring to something I said earlier but I'm not sure what
15:47:06 <APic> ais523: I probably did not understand Your 10/25 Swap properly at all
15:47:18 <APic> Treasures versus Lands
15:47:19 <ais523> APic: I was talking about HyperRogue rather than NetHack – it won't make much sense in the context of the wrong game
15:47:37 * APic does not know HyperRogue yet
15:48:26 <ais523> lands in HyperRogue are like branches in NetHack, treasures are scattered all around the floor of lands (each land has a different treasure) and make the land they're found in more dangerous, but also work towards completing the game, and can have an influence on other lands sometimes
15:48:57 <ais523> so gameplay in HyperRogue at the moment is normally about entering a land, picking up the minimum number of treasures you need to work towards completing the game, then leaving because the land is dangerous now
15:49:55 <ais523> in vanilla HyperRogue you need 10 treasures each from 9 different lands to unlock the main milestone towards game completion, but need 25 treasures from the same land to begin influencing most other lands (and even then the influence is usually quite minor)
15:50:12 <ais523> so the lands almost play out as completely unrelated
15:50:28 <ais523> because the treasures are the only thing that defines the character – you don't have upgradeable equipment or levels or max HP
15:51:31 <ais523> anyway, I only play HyperRogue in winter because it has an immediate mode UI and I don't like how much electricity that uses
15:51:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163320&oldid=163315 * Flashgutten * (+264) /* Introductions */
15:52:02 <ais523> (in winter, the electricity is less wasted because the waste heat goes towards heating the house)
15:52:31 -!- Flashgutten has joined.
15:52:42 <HackEso> Flashgutten: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:52:55 <ais523> …although I see you found the wiki already
15:53:33 <APic> Hi Flashgutten
15:57:25 <fizzie> We were in Kew yesterday, and one of their glasshouses (the Princess of Wales one) had an _incredible_ temperature gradient in the vertical direction. You went up (or down) a meter, and it was like a completely different thing.
16:03:56 <korvo> My house currently has a gradient of maybe 0.5 C°/m or so. It's the hottest time of the year in the Pacific Northwest.
16:05:15 <korvo> Well, not a gradient, more like a thermocline. You can feel it when traversing the stairs.
16:16:00 <ais523> now I'm wondering how easy it would be to write a language where you express a UI as though it were an immediate mode UI, but it gets compiled into something more efficient
16:16:08 <ais523> I vaguely expect it to have been done already
16:16:57 <int-e> surely that's a monad :P
16:17:19 <korvo> ContT, specifically. You can apply it to something like GL. I think there's an old Dan Piponi post about it.
16:18:06 <korvo> Found it: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2011/10/quick-and-dirty-reinversion-of-control.html
16:18:10 <ais523> oh, it's basically that technique I was planning to use to implement Feather before I decided it wouldn't work
16:19:03 <ais523> the trick is in how the *writes* are implemented – you revert the program to the point at which the value was read, then rerun with the new value
16:19:40 <ais523> but I don't think monads are quite the right abstraction because this isn't linear – if you do (a + b) * (c + d) and one of the variables changes, you want to rerun its addition and the multiplication, but not the other addition
16:19:55 <korvo> The first comment mentions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/operational which was very trendy in those days.
16:20:45 <korvo> I fell out of love with all of this once I understood how continuations are related to actors; I chose actors because enumeration leads to better management of capabilities. Like, a Haskell lambda doesn't have any syntactic indication of its closure, while an actor can be forced to explicitly declare every local reference.
16:21:30 <ais523> korvo: thanks for the link – this might be useful for something else I've been thinking about
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16:22:48 <korvo> Oh yeah, it's quite cool. I was about 10% of the way into building a game engine for Haskell based on this stuff before I realized that it was fundamentally not a good path forward due to compile times, versioning, and syntactic ceremony. Maybe now it'd be better with Nix and nixpkgs.
16:24:19 <ais523> it is probably better for building esolangs with (although in my case I might be trying to translate it from Haskell to an esolang…)
16:24:27 <korvo> Oh, actually I was using `lens`, also trendy at the time. Very cool to have a generic notion of assignment and mutation over any Traversable.
16:24:39 <ais523> lens used to be a meme on this channel
16:24:57 <ais523> which is a pity because it probably reduced the odds of any constructive discussions about it
16:26:25 <korvo> ais523: There is the Lobster language, which isn't exactly immediate-mode, but certainly tastes like it. https://www.strlen.com/lobster/
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16:40:51 <korvo> ais523: Oh, something we didn't cover at all: Witsaff is declarative! In this sense, it's a big improvement on hand-rolled towers of Python for implementing logic. I know some randomizer communities are playing with SMT solvers for this, but I'd like to think that Witsaff is more readable. It's certainly more writable; I tested by using it to take notes on Jets of Time.
16:41:12 <korvo> I do agree with you that we can go look up the logics on GitHub, but 2400 lines of Python is something of a turn-off for me.
16:42:47 <esolangs> [[Lobster]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163321 * Corbin * (+550) Stub a WVO language that keeps re-appearing in my periphery.
16:45:00 <b_jonas> ais523: "washing machines would more often run while everyone in the house was asleep" => the way it's phrased it sounds like a US suburban thing. I run my washing machine mostly during the day, while nobody is home, between 15:00 and 18:15, because at night the noise from the machine would bother the neighbors.
16:48:05 <esolangs> [[Wouter van Oortmerssen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163322&oldid=16155 * Corbin * (+31) Update links, add bluelinks.
16:49:10 <b_jonas> hehe, "variable opacity door", the supermarkets here sometimes have freezers with one, not as a feature but because the inside of the door gets frosty which makes it opaque.
16:57:14 <b_jonas> whoa, that SWAGGINZZZ nethack run sounds interesting, I should look at that
16:57:42 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163323&oldid=163309 * Placeholding * (-9)
16:58:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aquateraneal * New user account
16:59:38 <b_jonas> ok, so that figured out the seed and from then on it could manipulate randomness by simulating most of the game?
16:59:58 <b_jonas> which would of course be impossible in something like nethack4
17:00:38 <b_jonas> but the server at least generated the seed properly, it's not like the DOS speedrun that uses only the system time, right?
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17:02:29 <b_jonas> so they used the randomness in the initial inventory, because it's really fast to brute-force all 2**32 starting seeds that way.
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17:02:34 <ais523> korvo: at least the randomizer that I'm aware of had declarative logic implemented in JSON
17:02:45 <ais523> or, not implemented, described in JSON
17:03:08 <b_jonas> yeah, this is why you should use at least 96 bits of entropy for a random seed, so that your player can't have seen the same seed ever
17:03:22 <korvo> ais523: Ah, that is a definite improvement.
17:03:27 <ais523> <b_jonas> I run my washing machine mostly during the day, while nobody is home, between 15:00 and 18:15, because at night the noise from the machine would bother the neighbors. ← the report actually mentioned that as a possibility
17:03:39 <esolangs> [[User:Flashgutten]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163324 * Flashgutten * (+2108) I am flashgutten
17:04:03 <ais523> I was planning to write my own placement algorithm, that took such a description as input and output a set of item locations
17:04:14 <ais523> but with a bias towards trying to produce interesting situations
17:05:19 <ais523> (I tried following Super Metroid randomizers before moving onto Metroid Prime 2, but the placements in Super Metroid just usually aren't very interesting and the strategies often end up fairly formulaic – Metroid Prime 2 somehow ends up being exceedingly good for randomizers, I think mostly because its map is designed as a series of interlocking loops and that gives a high potential for interesting paths0
17:06:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163325&oldid=163320 * Aquateraneal * (+159)
17:07:48 <esolangs> [[User:Aquateraneal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163326 * Aquateraneal * (+13) Created page with "i is a potato"
17:09:53 <korvo> Yeah, the Super Metroid community is doing map randomizers now. It's one of those games where I think Witsaff could help generate optimal routes for major/minor, Chozo, etc.
17:10:31 <korvo> But map randomization is apparently a very tricky computational problem. They pre-generate like 10k maps per season and then generate seeds upon a randomly-chosen map. The birthday paradox means that occasionally runners will recognize maps or submaps.
17:11:03 <korvo> ...I suppose it's a special case of But Is It Art? and not obviously a special case of anything saner, so it's not surprising that it's hard, but I'd have expected it to be more like Wang tiling.
17:11:08 <ais523> the metroid prime series once had a sort-of working map randomizer, but the maps didn't connect up at all, they were just trees
17:11:42 <ais523> and I think it got abandoned, eventually
17:21:01 <korvo> I suppose that Prime 1's unique approach to level-building primitives is part of that story. It's not nicely laid out on a grid either.
17:21:34 <b_jonas> ais523: where Super Metroid randomizer gets interesting is that, at least in SMRAT and similar settings, you can gain a large edge if you know the randomizer logic well and use it to predict where items can be. this can get surprisingly deep and some players are very good in it, though the basics are easy to understand. it is kind of mind bending because you have to keep track of two different logics:
17:21:40 <b_jonas> one is what player tricks the randomizer allows when it makes sure that the map can be completed, which in the case of SMRAT is only very basic intended gameplay tactics, and what tricks you are willing to do in the run.
17:22:14 <ais523> b_jonas: right, this comes up in Metroid Prime 2, too
17:22:36 <ais523> I'm better at it than some of the actual runners (although it's probably easier when you don't have to think about actually playing the game at the same time)
17:23:52 <b_jonas> like the Varia suit can't be in places accessible only through heated rooms except for one, because Varia protects you from them, and there are even fewer valid areas for the Gravity suit, and the suits are the most important items so you want to find them efficiently.
17:23:55 <ais523> MP2 tricks are really interesting because there are some tricks that are very general but also very slow
17:24:22 <b_jonas> I used to watch a lot of SMRAT for a while, but I no longer watch them much
17:24:43 <ais523> although out-of-bounds tricks were banned in one of the most recent tournaments because they were making things a bit too repetitive
17:25:05 <ais523> and some people were so good at them that they were less of an interesting tradeoff
17:33:59 <esolangs> [[Dt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163327&oldid=163290 * C++DSUCKER * (+3)
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17:39:56 <b_jonas> "+127 Magicbane" hehe, that's a weird idea, even in context of what you'd do with random manipulation to allow an easy ascension
17:42:21 <ais523> I don't like going too close to +127 / -128 for fear of char overflow messing up calculations somewhere
17:44:08 <b_jonas> you'd around 120 scrolls of enchant weapon, which is doable with farming, and for most scrolls you need to pass an 1/n probability check to enchant further from enchantment n, and a 1/3 probability check to make the weapon survive. I didn't even remember the first of those, because you never enchant weapons so high that it matters.
17:45:23 <b_jonas> and the second check is done even if the first check fails IIUC
17:45:49 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's quite reasonable
17:46:56 <strerror> (if you knew the rng state wouldn't you also just know when the next attack would overflow?)
17:47:26 <b_jonas> it's just that, if you curbstomp the game by manipulating randomness, a +127 Magicbane doesn't sound like the most efficient thing to do
17:48:07 <ais523> strerror: yes, that's what SWAGGINZZZ effectively did
17:48:12 <korvo> b_jonas: Yes, exactly. This is why Witsaff has the $ technique blocks. The idea is that *if* a player can perform a certain technique, then the tracker can indicate what's logically available *for them*, while still predicting probabilities based on a pre-trained matrix where the technique is disabled.
17:49:00 <korvo> This leads to a tracker that can predict a sequence break, more or less. Like, predicting multiple out-of-logic checks which each have high probability to enable the next check.
17:49:28 <ais523> korvo: my method of handling that in my own version was for technique requirements to be treated similarly to item requirements, needing 25 missiles to get through a door is similar to needing 3 skill in standable terrain (at least if missiles are easy to recharge)
17:50:09 <ais523> so you can treat them the same way in the implementation and just tweak its knowledge of the default "starting items" to control what tricks you're able to do
17:53:47 <b_jonas> wait, 90 wishes from just the fountain, or are there wands in between? can you get multiple wishes from a single fountain?
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17:56:18 <ais523> you can get multiple wishes from a fountain
17:56:32 <ais523> the odds are very low, but that doesn't bother a TAS
17:58:05 <b_jonas> and you don't need to do anything special between the wishes, like sacrifice to regain alignment or luck?
17:58:14 <b_jonas> I never try to go for fountain wishes
17:58:24 <b_jonas> so I don't know their rules
17:58:28 <b_jonas> I barely even remember how thrones work
18:00:01 <b_jonas> wait, how does "Phase-jump to priest" on Astral work? does that mean polymorphing to a Xorn?
18:00:19 <b_jonas> this isn't Astral, it's the Sanctum
18:02:48 <b_jonas> um, I can't get the dumplog from the link in the article
18:06:32 <b_jonas> https://archive.alt.org/dumplog/SWAGGINZZZ/1546732576.nh361.txt works
18:06:39 <esolangs> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163328&oldid=121014 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Implementation */ mor golf
18:06:54 <ais523> b_jonas: the usual dumpfile search tools can't find it either
18:07:55 <ais523> ascending while hallucinating is something special, especially because I don't think the character had knowledge that that was the correct altar (the player did via the RNG sync)
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18:13:21 <b_jonas> doesn't the game tell you the name of the god if you're standing on the high altar, even when hally?
18:14:47 <ais523> b_jonas: possibly but I can't tell from the log, it didn't nearlook
18:14:56 <ais523> but I think you normally just get a hallu god
18:15:43 <b_jonas> can you try to sacrifice an ordinary monster to find out?
18:16:34 <b_jonas> why are there so many "poobah" in the log? is that a hallu thing?
18:16:48 <b_jonas> are those priests or angels?
18:17:07 <b_jonas> can't be angels, Moloch doesn't have angels
18:18:03 <ais523> priests, I think, and yes a hallu thing
18:19:42 <b_jonas> there's a "The poobah of your Friend the Computer" and "The high poobah of the Central Bank of Yendor", so you must be right about randomized god names
18:20:06 <b_jonas> that must be new after 3.4.3
18:39:39 <b_jonas> hmm, the two different brands of liquid soap end up forming distinct layers when I refill. the better soap seems to be heavier. I wonder if I should do experiments to find out if it's the better soap that's unusually heavy, or the worse soap is unusually light, or it's not a density difference but some weird effect from refilling (unlikely).
18:49:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * New user account
18:56:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163329&oldid=163325 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+198)
18:58:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163330&oldid=163329 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+52)
18:59:55 <esolangs> [[HAPPA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163331&oldid=155899 * Ractangle * (+6)
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19:12:53 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163332 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+136) Created page with "Hello. I create the dumbest esolangs, and my username pretty much says it all. ===List of my esolangs=== [[]]<br> [[]]<br> [[]]<br> ..."
19:14:35 <ais523> hmm, claiming to create the dumbest esolangs is a pretty bold claim
19:14:39 <ais523> there are some really dumb esolangs out there
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19:26:34 <b_jonas> ok, this is such a tease and letdown. new CodeParade video, "palindromes" in the title. in the opening he reads a phrase that clearly wants to be a palindrome because it's meaningful backwards. at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap08_AGPh8s the palindromes says "DNA wastewater cessation", which backwards starts with "Noita's secret". but the video says NOTHING AT ALL about the long unsolved secret
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20:16:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163334&oldid=163333 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+6)
20:28:00 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163335 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+102) Created page with "{{Wip}} =Short Description= The same [[bf]] but without "<",">",",", only "+","-","." but "." here "A""
20:48:51 <esolangs> [[User:Insulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163336&oldid=163317 * Insulation * (+216)
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22:26:37 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163338&oldid=163128 * Hotcrystal0 * (+221)
22:28:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:APGsembly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163339 * Hotcrystal0 * (+279) Created page with "Does this have input/output? ~~~~"
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23:46:10 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163340&oldid=163316 * WarzokERNST135 * (+66)
00:11:15 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163341&oldid=163303 * Junkshipp * (+241) /* Example code */
00:18:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163342&oldid=163298 * Hotcrystal0 * (+135)
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02:58:04 <zzo38> For random number seed, I only have 64-bits of entropy for random seed in Super ZZ Zero, but should I change it to 96-bits? Currently it is set up using the current date/time
02:59:17 <esolangs> [[User:Placeholding]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163344&oldid=163343 * Aadenboy * (+11) accessibility
03:19:42 <zzo38> Map randomization is something that might be worth to be considered too
05:59:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, you should change it to 256 bits. 96 bits is still too small.
06:00:40 <b_jonas> I think I meant to say at least 192 bits, and the 96 was a thinko
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08:18:57 <esolangs> [[Hny021]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163346&oldid=163345 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Interpreter */ oops forgot to split
08:50:08 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163347&oldid=161288 * Ractangle * (+85) /* Interpreter */
09:06:09 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163348&oldid=163347 * Ractangle * (-85)
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10:19:47 <esolangs> [[KEMURI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163349&oldid=94059 * Tpaefawzen * (+57) /* Others */
10:26:59 <esolangs> [[KEMURI/str2kemuri.rb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163350 * Tpaefawzen * (+2067) TODO appropriate category
10:32:51 <esolangs> [[KEMURI/str2kemuri.rb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163351&oldid=163350 * Tpaefawzen * (+15) +cat
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10:42:46 <esolangs> [[KEMURI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163354&oldid=163349 * Tpaefawzen * (+101) /* External resources */ +1
10:43:01 <esolangs> [[KEMURI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163355&oldid=163354 * Tpaefawzen * (-2) /* External resources */
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12:08:20 <esolangs> [[Tercet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163356 * Insulation * (+3665) Creattttiiooonn
12:10:30 <esolangs> [[User:Insulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163357&oldid=163336 * Insulation * (+11)
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13:49:32 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163358&oldid=163332 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+9) /* List of my esolangs */
13:55:12 <zemhill> web.torshavn: points -3.24, score 17.62, rank 24/47
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14:15:26 <ais523> ooh, a BF Joust submission that scored significantly well on the leaderboard
14:16:22 <ais523> and appears to be designed specifically to beat two_thirds (which previously beat everything)
14:23:59 <ais523> OK, yes, has decoy/offset sizes designed specifically to beat it
15:27:39 <ais523> !bfjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
15:27:46 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
15:27:47 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 18.55, score 49.54, rank 2/47 (--)
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16:23:16 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
16:23:16 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 19.40, score 51.97, rank 2/47 (--)
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16:31:37 <ais523> !zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
16:31:37 <zemhill> ais523.two_thirds: points 19.43, score 51.92, rank 2/47 (--)
16:32:17 <korvo> There's the Pareto frontier, I guess. Was it just a matter of adding another special case?
16:55:46 <ais523> korvo: actually no – most of the changes helped against other programs too
16:56:43 <ais523> there is a heuristic for distinguishing between flag repair and decoys that is probably overfitted, and quite a lot of the decoy sizes are probably also a bit overfitted, but the changes make sense regardless of opponent
16:57:19 <ais523> in particular, I didn't contest the decoy size creep, I focused on cases where I could win more legitimately
16:59:08 <ais523> (in particular, the "fast rush or short tape" case which is important enough that I mentally acronym it to FROST – I put additional effort into that one, because the opponent has fast-rush-like behaviour on medium tapes)
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17:19:03 <korvo> Makes sense. Starcraft has a similar overlap; on a too-large map, it's not possible to rush up against your enemy's position quickly because they are too far away.
17:21:49 <ais523> right – the main surprising thing is that it took so many years for us to realise that programs should have entirely different behaviour based on whether the enemy is nearby or further away
17:22:31 <ais523> although, it may have been harder to figure that out in the past, when optimal strategy was less standardised
17:27:41 <korvo> In both Starcraft and chess, there's been a long-standing focus on openings: ordering of the first few choices, development, access, fortress, etc.
17:28:03 <korvo> But that might just be because a good opening is a general-purpose strategy that tends to do well on average.
17:28:49 <korvo> In chess, we can feel the combinatorial pressure of another possibility: a bad opening might foreclose a victory later.
17:29:10 <ais523> I think it's also because openings can happen often enough to be worth learning – especially in Starcraft, where they only have a couple of variations depending on what the opponent does
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17:42:50 <korvo> Sure. Even then, against some specific opponents, we have to "pull the boys": halt all resource-gathering and send the peons to fight. Even before making the first peon, in some Starcraft 2 scenarios!
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18:38:15 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163359&oldid=161440 * Aadenboy * (+14) /* my own esolangs */
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19:53:35 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163360&oldid=163335 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+85)
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20:15:09 <esolangs> [[Xtrod]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163361&oldid=162506 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+95) Reintroduced the examples section whose incipial membership is realized in a one-time cat program.
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20:21:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Xtrod]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163362 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1355) Created the discussion page for the language Xtrod in order to inquire into its incrementation and decrementation capabilities.
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20:30:43 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163363&oldid=163360 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+466) /* Esolang Overview */
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21:30:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Xtrod]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163364&oldid=163362 * Ractangle * (+413)
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21:53:44 <esolangs> [[Traxler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163365 * WarzokERNST135 * (+1086) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''Traxler''' is a 2D stack based esolang which was made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==Note== When you write the name of this language (traxler), it is lowercase unless it's the first word of the sentence. ==General rules== In traxler, you are required t
21:54:33 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163366&oldid=162890 * WarzokERNST135 * (+16)
21:55:01 <esolangs> [[Traxler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163367&oldid=163365 * WarzokERNST135 * (+23)
21:56:37 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163368&oldid=161756 * WarzokERNST135 * (+167) /* Traxler */
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22:45:51 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163369&oldid=163363 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+396)
22:47:29 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163370&oldid=163369 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+1)
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23:07:17 <esolangs> [[Traxler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163371&oldid=163367 * WarzokERNST135 * (+395) /* Examples: */
23:08:49 <esolangs> [[Traxler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163372&oldid=163371 * WarzokERNST135 * (+215) /* Commands */
23:17:26 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163373&oldid=163370 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+636)
23:17:33 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163374&oldid=162781 * WarzokERNST135 * (+394)
23:27:51 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163375&oldid=163373 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+0) /* Official Interpreter(IDE, Writed on python.) */
23:54:41 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163376&oldid=163375 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+308)
23:56:35 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163377&oldid=163376 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+17) /* Hello, Vnqkc */
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00:25:29 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163378&oldid=163377 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+154) /* Implementations */
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01:16:37 <esolangs> [[Rollover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163379&oldid=159417 * Scratch Fakemon * (+278)
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02:09:52 <esolangs> [[User:Jan jelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163380&oldid=150984 * Jan jelo * (+1) fix a typo
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04:15:47 <esolangs> [[Monoid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163381&oldid=157862 * Corbin * (+235) /* Introduction */ Work an example.
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04:47:57 <esolangs> [[Monoid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163382&oldid=163381 * Corbin * (+753) /* Free monoids */ Fix up grammar. Add notation. This is *not* the standard definition; it's simpler!
04:58:34 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163383&oldid=162624 * Calculus is fun * (+727) Added Pointing example
05:04:17 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163384&oldid=163383 * Calculus is fun * (+120) /* Pointing */
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05:15:58 <esolangs> [[Monoid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163385&oldid=163382 * Corbin * (+1288) The rank-simplification game we've been playing is NP-complete.
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06:09:28 <esolangs> [[Monoid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163386&oldid=163385 * Corbin * (+877) Mention commutative monoids. We'll want the lemma: r(X, A*) = 1 iff A* is commutative. For example, this implies that BF's rank is at least 2.
06:17:31 <korvo> Okay, one mystery solved. The rank of a monoid doesn't make sense as a standalone concept. Instead, a subset of a (free?) monoid has a rank relative to that monoid.
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06:52:11 <esolangs> [[Monoid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163387&oldid=163386 * Corbin * (+600) /* Rank */ Facts about rank.
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09:03:08 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163388&oldid=138760 * Ractangle * (-8) /* Python */ mimmimi
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09:23:05 <esolangs> [[Dt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163389&oldid=163327 * C++DSUCKER * (+3)
09:27:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163390&oldid=163284 * C++DSUCKER * (+9)
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11:09:34 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163391&oldid=163378 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+154)
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11:10:44 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163392&oldid=163391 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+19) /* Why "Dumbascii"? */
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11:51:57 <esolangs> [[!English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163393&oldid=148971 * MihaiEso * (+38)
11:54:22 <esolangs> [[!English/Examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163394&oldid=141379 * MihaiEso * (+294) /* A chatbot that uses GPT-4o */
12:17:14 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163395&oldid=161466 * MihaiEso * (+54) /* My targets */
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12:42:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SzszszszszszszsZ * New user account
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12:53:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163396&oldid=163330 * SzszszszszszszsZ * (+247)
12:54:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163397&oldid=163396 * SzszszszszszszsZ * (+0)
13:00:06 <esolangs> [[User:SzszszszszszszsZ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163398 * SzszszszszszszsZ * (+607) Created page with "Hi! My name is SzszszszszszszsZ. (case insensitive, you can shuffle my username whatever you like). Im from malaysia Anyways thats all <small>''PS: -[--->+<]>------.-.--------.[-->+<]>---.++++[->++<]>.+++++++.+[->++++<]>+.>+[--->++<]>.+[--->+<]
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13:42:40 <esolangs> [[Monoid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163399&oldid=163387 * Corbin * (+56) /* Rank */ Add a corollary which seems like it might apply in some cases.
13:44:24 <korvo> ais523: I apologize for my attitude several weeks ago. I didn't understand the maths and I was taking it out on fellow editors. For contrition I'm finishing up the work.
13:44:54 <ais523> the more abstract an esolang gets, the harder it is to understand
13:47:56 <ais523> actually, when it comes to TCness proofs, often the trick is to work out the best way to think about the language in order to make it concrete
13:48:12 <ais523> Three Star Programmer was much easier to understand when I figured out how to get rid of some of the stars, for example
13:48:35 <ais523> because then you have things that consistently work like variables
13:48:49 <ais523> (you can only increment them and reading them is awkward, but at least they're easy to reason about)
13:53:18 <esolangs> [[WikiFreak]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163400 * DifferentDance8 * (+3401) Created page with "''Note: This language was developed as a filler project and is not intended to be taken seriously.'' '''WikiFreak''' is an output-only esoteric programming language (more precisely, an output/output-only language, as it does not accept input) created by [[Use
13:53:38 <esolangs> [[WikiFreak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163401&oldid=163400 * DifferentDance8 * (-78)
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14:02:56 <wib_jonas> how related is the i/d machine, or to brainfuck on a tape of booleans that you can only increment, never decrement, and no overflow?
14:03:15 <wib_jonas> all three of these have a memory that is writable only in one way, sort of like paper with pen if you don't have correction fluid
14:03:49 <wib_jonas> but with additional restrictions in all three cases
14:10:05 <ais523> wib_jonas: the I/D machine is pretty similar to Three Star Programmer in terms of how you program it
14:10:51 <ais523> the main difference is that the I/D machine doesn't have any hardcoded addresses, so you have to keep various constant addresses around within the easily addressable portion of memory in order to avoid getting lost
14:11:08 <ais523> in Three Star Programmer you can hardcode addresses, so doing that is easier, but program initialisation is more complicated
14:11:31 <ais523> Permanent BF is much easier to write in because the control flow is much more powerful
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14:20:36 <fungot> fizzie: http://list.cs.brown.edu/ pipermail/ plt-scheme/ fnord/ fnord
14:22:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tag system]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163402 * Treeplate * (+393) add example with no halting symbols
14:31:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tag system]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163403&oldid=163402 * Treeplate * (+13) fix my comment's formatting
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17:28:47 <APic> Good Night Folks
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18:08:51 <esolangs> [[Monoid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163404&oldid=163399 * Corbin * (+1843) Add a section on presentations. Define simple translations.
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18:37:52 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163405&oldid=163392 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+143)
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19:08:28 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163406&oldid=163405 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+83)
19:50:44 <esolangs> [[9999]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163407 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+449) Created page with "{{wip}} '''[[9999]]''' is joke [[esoteric_programming_language|esoteric programming language]] which working in 9999 year. =implementation= ==[https://www.python.org/ Python]== <pre> import datetime from datetime import datetime now = datetime.now() if now.year
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19:57:52 <esolangs> [[9999]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163408&oldid=163407 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+527)
19:58:27 <esolangs> [[9999]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163409&oldid=163408 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (-1) /* Python */
20:04:53 <esolangs> [[Monoid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163410&oldid=163404 * Corbin * (+676) /* Rank */ Generalize to let X be big, not covered in Neraud 1992. Clean up corollaries.
20:05:22 <esolangs> [[9999]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163411&oldid=163409 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+1)
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20:13:24 <esolangs> [[9999]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163412&oldid=163411 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+4) /* implementation */
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20:28:09 <esolangs> [[Cat Program (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163413&oldid=138056 * WoodyFan3412 * (+82) /* Interpreters */
20:28:51 <esolangs> [[QuakeScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163414 * WoodyFan3412 * (+5120) Created page with "QuakeScript is a language made by WoodyFan3412 <br> in this language there are commands, they're alot like the commands in games like half-life == Syntax == the first "word" is the command name, anything after that are the command arguments <br> quotation mark
20:30:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * WoodyFan3412 * uploaded "[[File:QuakeScriptScreenshot.png]]"
20:30:31 <esolangs> [[User:WoodyFan3412]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163416&oldid=163306 * WoodyFan3412 * (+42) /* Projects that i've made: */
20:36:37 <esolangs> [[User:WoodyFan3412]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163417&oldid=163416 * WoodyFan3412 * (+294) /* Project Descriptions */
20:40:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * WoodyFan3412 * uploaded "[[File:GunSide.png]]"
20:41:41 <esolangs> [[User:WoodyFan3412]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163419&oldid=163417 * WoodyFan3412 * (+117)
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23:08:02 <esolangs> [[QuakeScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163420&oldid=163414 * WarzokERNST135 * (+13) /* Math */ Fixed Math
23:10:42 <esolangs> [[Traxler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163421&oldid=163372 * WarzokERNST135 * (+0)
23:11:24 <esolangs> [[Traxler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163422&oldid=163421 * WarzokERNST135 * (-2)
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00:20:40 <zzo38> What random number generator should I change it to, to use 256-bits?
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03:40:32 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163423&oldid=163279 * Pifrited * (+184)
03:49:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Plasmatoroid * New user account
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04:17:04 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163424&oldid=163423 * Pifrited * (+1985)
05:06:05 <esolangs> [[Monoid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163425&oldid=163410 * Corbin * (+325) /* NP-completeness */ Special case.
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05:43:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163426&oldid=148158 * Corbin * (+1792) /* Group formulation */ The group/monoid approach won't work, at least not over this simple relation.
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06:22:42 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/How Alternating Checkerboard rule emulate work]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163427 * Pifrited * (+64) .
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07:39:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Useless * New user account
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08:50:39 <esolangs> [[Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163428 * None1 * (+1315) Created page with "{{WIP}} {{lang|a=User:None1|i=[[Chicken]]}} It's also known as ccc:cc. Everyone knows that Chicken is inspired by [http://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf the article with only Chicken and punctuations]. This language is more similar to
08:58:47 <strerror> The fourth wiki entry starting with chicken (fewer than I was expecting)
09:05:27 <strerror> zzo38: I think newer games have moved to cryptographic random generators (e.g. SHA256) if truly unpredictable numbers are needed, like in PvP. They need more cpu cycles though.
09:09:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Radson * New user account
09:11:06 <strerror> (if complete unpredictability isn't needed, I doubt that 256 bits is necessary)
09:28:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Psuranas * New user account
09:37:47 <esolangs> [[Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163429&oldid=163428 * None1 * (+179)
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10:11:01 <esolangs> [[Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163430&oldid=163429 * None1 * (+11808)
10:11:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163431&oldid=163390 * None1 * (+47) /* C */
10:11:55 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163432&oldid=161166 * None1 * (+48)
10:12:22 <esolangs> [[Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163433&oldid=163430 * None1 * (-3)
10:12:32 <esolangs> [[Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163434&oldid=163433 * None1 * (+2) /* =Empty sentences */
10:12:55 <esolangs> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163435&oldid=137156 * None1 * (+14)
10:13:44 <esolangs> [[Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163436&oldid=163434 * None1 * (+113)
10:15:43 <esolangs> [[Ccc:cc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163437 * None1 * (+54) Redirected page to [[Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken]]
11:02:55 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163438&oldid=163406 * None1 * (+29)
11:06:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Sharp flat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163439&oldid=163228 * None1 * (+347)
11:10:57 <esolangs> [[Dt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163440&oldid=163389 * C++DSUCKER * (+577)
11:12:15 <esolangs> [[^]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163441&oldid=153855 * None1 * (+29) /* Interpreter */ be more specific
11:12:33 <esolangs> [[Dt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163442&oldid=163440 * C++DSUCKER * (+26)
11:12:42 <esolangs> [[Dt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163443&oldid=163442 * C++DSUCKER * (+2)
11:12:54 <esolangs> [[Dt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163444&oldid=163443 * C++DSUCKER * (-1)
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11:15:24 <esolangs> [[Dt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163446&oldid=163445 * C++DSUCKER * (-9)
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12:20:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163447&oldid=163397 * Hello3782 * (+236)
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12:26:41 <esolangs> [[C]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163448 * Hello3782 * (+177) yes
12:27:17 <esolangs> [[User:Hello3782]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163449 * Hello3782 * (+22) Created page with "Hi this is me [[C]]"
12:27:39 <esolangs> [[C flat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163450 * Hello3782 * (+18) Redirected page to [[C]]
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12:45:14 <esolangs> [[Mint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163452&oldid=161446 * Hajunsheng * (-20)
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12:56:38 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163453&oldid=150009 * Ais523 * (+152) /* 2025 */ mention that later versions of backstop changed the strategy slightly
12:57:34 <esolangs> [[BF Joust champions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163454&oldid=163453 * Ais523 * (+2) /* 2025 */ fix thinko in my previous edit
13:26:43 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163455&oldid=155227 * Dhzb * (+23)
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18:25:57 <esolangs> [[C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163456&oldid=163448 * Aadenboy * (+9) stub
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18:57:30 <zzo38> For my use, I will want to use faster random numbers and is not multi-players
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19:24:36 <zemhill> web.medium: points -9.93, score 13.47, rank 46/47
19:29:25 <zemhill> web.medium: points -5.88, score 17.53, rank 25/47 (+21)
19:37:16 <APic> Nighty-Night *
19:38:36 <zemhill> web.medium: points -2.48, score 20.12, rank 18/47 (+7)
19:45:27 <zemhill> web.medium: points -0.93, score 21.52, rank 16/47 (+2)
19:47:06 <ais523> zzo38: so one possibility is to hash consecutive integers, then split each resulting hash into small segments and treat each of those segments as a random result
19:47:29 <ais523> that way, one hashing operation gives you several random results, so it helps to reduce the performance hit of using the hashing algorithm
19:53:18 <zemhill> web.medium: points -0.21, score 22.15, rank 15/47 (+1)
20:19:47 <zemhill> web.medium: points -0.10, score 22.20, rank 15/47 (--)
20:21:33 <zemhill> web.medium: points 1.81, score 23.93, rank 12/47 (+3)
20:34:17 <zemhill> web.medium: points 1.83, score 23.95, rank 12/47 (--)
20:35:00 <zemhill> web.medium: points 1.93, score 24.04, rank 12/47 (--)
20:42:35 <zemhill> web.medium: points 2.14, score 24.22, rank 12/47 (--)
20:46:09 <zemhill> web.medium: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-35)
20:46:45 <ais523> !zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
20:46:46 <zemhill> ais523.medium: points 2.14, score 24.22, rank 12/47
20:47:08 <ais523> (I was initially just messing around but this does much better than I expected)
20:47:32 <ais523> that said, I think the general strategy is too unstable for it to become a champion
20:52:17 <ais523> !zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
20:52:17 <zemhill> ais523.medium: points 2.62, score 25.27, rank 10/47 (+2)
20:56:46 <ais523> !zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
20:56:47 <zemhill> ais523.medium: points 2.81, score 25.56, rank 9/47 (+1)
20:57:32 <ais523> it now beats 8 out of the top 10 programs, losing to two_thirds and tying with itself
20:58:15 <ais523> it turns out that the standard strategy that most of the winners use is predictable enough to take advantage of it
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21:14:14 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163457&oldid=149567 * Ais523 * (+787) /* Accelerated clear */ new section
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21:29:27 <ais523> !zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
21:29:27 <zemhill> ais523.medium: points 3.52, score 26.24, rank 9/47 (--)
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21:38:39 <ais523> !zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
21:38:40 <zemhill> ais523.medium: points 4.43, score 26.89, rank 8/47 (+1)
21:48:11 <ais523> !zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
21:48:11 <zemhill> ais523.medium: points 4.86, score 27.30, rank 7/47 (+1)
21:55:22 <ais523> !zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
21:55:23 <zemhill> ais523.medium: points 6.95, score 29.78, rank 6/47 (+1)
22:00:08 <ais523> !zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
22:00:08 <zemhill> ais523.medium: points 7.05, score 29.81, rank 6/47 (--)
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22:44:36 <esolangs> [[Arch is the best! without a quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163458 * WarzokERNST135 * (+403) Created page with "[[Arch is the best! without a quine]] is an esolang made by ~~~~ which is like Arch is the best!, but if you type this: Arch is the best! it outputs: Yes, Arch is the best! Anything else outputs: Arch is the best! [[Category:Languages]
22:45:11 <ais523> do we really need a quineless version of every language that just prints a fixed string?
22:47:20 <int-e> . o O ( We have the answers to your rhetorical questions. )
23:09:59 <korvo> If you can tell me what [[category:nope. derivatives]] should be renamed to -- something like [[category:constant languages]] or [[category:constants]] -- then I'll do the needful.
23:10:33 <korvo> Also, I'd be willing to fill out [[category:quine-avoiding languages]]; maybe that could go through the talk-page process.
23:38:54 <ais523> korvo: might be worth discussing the name on the categorisation page
23:39:16 <ais523> the name "constant string printers" came to mind, but I think we normally use that for esolangs which allow you to choose which constant string gets printed
23:39:50 <ais523> in general it is a bad idea to make big changes to categories without discussion, it is hard for individual people get it right on their own (I know I struggle with it)
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23:52:45 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163459&oldid=163457 * Ais523 * (+4) /* Clear */ fix capitalisation of [[brainfuck]]
23:57:11 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163460&oldid=163459 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Careless clear */ the example didn't match the commentary change the commentary to match
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00:35:05 <esolangs> [[BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163461&oldid=163460 * Ais523 * (+135) /* Trail */ not just useful against defence
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02:45:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163462&oldid=162349 * Corbin * (+816) /* Constant languages */ new section
03:05:14 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163463&oldid=163294 * PrySigneToFry * (+57)
03:09:50 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163464&oldid=163249 * PrySigneToFry * (+75)
03:16:00 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163465&oldid=160790 * H33T33 * (+301)
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04:18:20 <zzo38> About the random numbers, the one I use so far is in the "dice" function in https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zzo38/superzz0/refs/heads/trunk/game.c and may be used multiple times per frame (but not always; it is not necessarily consistent)
04:23:55 <esolangs> [[Category:Low-level]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163466&oldid=7964 * Corbin * (+462) Slightly clarify this category. Still a bit nebulous.
04:36:35 <zzo38> The idea of making the hash and using parts of it is something that I had thought of before, but it seems unnecessary for this program, it might be useful for some other programs. (I might be wrong though)
04:37:30 <esolangs> [[User:Marina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163467&oldid=152664 * PrySigneToFry * (+199)
04:38:57 <esolangs> [[Tweet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163468&oldid=96960 * PrySigneToFry * (+3)
05:02:03 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163469&oldid=163183 * Dhzb * (+76)
05:12:32 <esolangs> [[User:WoodyFan3412]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163470&oldid=163419 * WoodyFan3412 * (+103)
05:13:11 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163471&oldid=163469 * Dhzb * (+309)
05:14:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163472&oldid=163447 * Psuranas * (+200) Added my introduction
05:15:01 <esolangs> [[User:Psuranas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163473 * Psuranas * (+77) Added my page
05:21:04 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163474&oldid=162814 * Dhzb * (+90)
05:25:00 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163475&oldid=163474 * Dhzb * (+102)
05:28:40 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163476&oldid=163084 * Dhzb * (+41)
06:15:08 <esolangs> [[Moed/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163477&oldid=163455 * Dhzb * (+1)
06:31:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163478&oldid=163431 * Insulation * (+22)
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08:55:22 <esolangs> [[Nocap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163480 * Psuranas * (+6883) Added noCap
08:56:20 <esolangs> [[User:Psuranas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163481&oldid=163473 * Psuranas * (+43) Added my language
08:57:26 <esolangs> [[Nocap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163482&oldid=163480 * Psuranas * (+0) Fixed year
09:09:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163483&oldid=163478 * Psuranas * (+12) Added noCap
09:45:34 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163484 * Pifrited * (+97) .
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09:55:56 <esolangs> [[Nocap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163485&oldid=163482 * Psuranas * (+25) Added output only category
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11:43:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163486&oldid=163462 * Ais523 * (+1154) /* Constant languages */ some thoughts
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14:04:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFryAltered]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163487&oldid=157965 * PrySigneToFry * (+78)
14:05:31 <esolangs> [[Moed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163488&oldid=156949 * Dhzb * (+68) /* Sinisterimperae */
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14:08:43 <esolangs> [[FH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163489&oldid=158912 * PrySigneToFry * (+49)
14:27:01 <int-e> . o O ( shapez 2 is a horror game: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-clowns.jpg )
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15:18:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you don't need a cryptographically secure random generator, that is, if you're fine with an adversary being able to predict the future random numbers from past ones, then I'd recommend https://www.math.sci.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/m-mat/MT/MT2002/emt19937ar.html (Mersenne twister), it's simple and supports seeding from a vector of integer seeds of the length of your choice. the C++ standard added
15:18:35 <b_jonas> some array seeding like that, but the interface is really messed up and hard to use, and it isn't compatible with this even if you use the mersenne twister backend which is otherwise compatible with the standalone Mersenne-twister library.
15:19:03 <esolangs> [[Nocap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163490&oldid=163485 * WarzokERNST135 * (+27)
15:25:41 <korvo> If you're implementing from scratch, I recommend PCG: https://www.pcg-random.org/ The amount of code is quite small and the resulting RNG is fairly good.
15:26:10 <b_jonas> korvo: I haven't heard of that yet, thank you
15:26:59 <b_jonas> ccan you seed it from a vector of integer seeds?
15:28:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nocap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163491 * WarzokERNST135 * (+143) Created page with "Isn't this the language made by FaceDev? ~~~~"
15:36:05 <ais523> I don't like the Mersenne Twister for most applications, it has a stupidly large internal state and doesn't use it for security properties
15:37:03 <ais523> (I think the Mersenne Twister is specifically designed to guarantee a good spread of results so that it can be used for randomized algorithms in scientific research, which most earlier RNGs didn't – but that makes the pattern somewhat predictable in reverse-engineerable ways)
15:37:24 <ais523> fwiw, when I'm generating random numbers that don't need to be secure, I like to use a 64-bit MRNG
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15:37:56 <b_jonas> korvo: interesting, but I think I'll just stick to cryptographically secure random generators because computers are so fast today that I can afford it
15:37:59 <ais523> it is incredibly fast, you just multiply the seed by a 64-bit constant to produce a new seed, and take the top few bits of the result to produce the random number
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15:38:34 <ais523> and yet, if you pick the right constant, the results are hard to distinguish from random, they pass the standard randomness tests
15:39:38 <ais523> ah no, I used a 128-bit MRNG
15:40:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nocap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163492&oldid=163491 * PkmnQ * (+133)
15:41:07 <ais523> <ais523> The parameter 25096281518912105342191851917838718629 is taken from Tables of linear congruential generators of different sizes and good lattice structure, Pierre L’Ecuyer, Math. Comp. 68 (1999), 249-260, <https://doi.org/10.1090/S0025-5718-99-00996-5>.
15:42:24 <b_jonas> ais523: is the modulus 2**128?
15:43:08 <ais523> the paper I linked gives values for both LCRNGs and MRNGs, for both power-of-2 moduli and highest-prime-beneath-power-of-2 moduli
15:43:19 <ais523> although it notes that if you're using a power-of-2 modulus, the seed has to be an odd numbre
15:43:25 <korvo> b_jonas: No worries. Yeah, if you can afford a CSPRNG then it's always a better decision, even for simple stuff like Bloom filters or hash-consing.
15:44:14 <int-e> (which is the best multiplicative order you can get moduloe 2^128)
15:44:23 <b_jonas> I have used Mersenne twister in some code I wrote in the past
15:44:37 <ais523> int-e: yes – that should be large enough in practice
15:45:00 <ais523> you can increase the period a bit by adding a constant, to get an LCRNG, but there's really no point and it just slows the program down
15:45:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PkmnQ * moved [[Nocap]] to [[NoCap]]
15:45:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PkmnQ * moved [[Talk:Nocap]] to [[Talk:NoCap]]
15:46:13 <korvo> Also, depending on the application, there are several algorithms that deterministically produce numbers which are e.g. uniformly distributed on the unit square or sphere, and those can be *much* faster since they don't need to pull any entropy. Those can be useful for e.g. raytracing.
15:46:13 <esolangs> [[NoCap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163497&oldid=163493 * PkmnQ * (-4)
15:47:15 <ais523> korvo: uniformly distributed on a sphere is very difficult, at least if you want more than a few points
15:47:49 <ais523> there are only so many platonic solids
15:49:15 <ais523> I think you can get up to 60 under the constraint of "you can rotate/reflect any point onto any other" (theoretically you can do more based on prism/antiprism approaches but those solutions are obviously nonuniform looking at them, as the points all lie on one of a few circles)
15:50:32 <korvo> ais523: The trick is to find epsilon-delta definitions of "uniformly", so that they can be non-uniform for any finite number of points. A useful key phrase in the literature is "low-discrepancy sequence"; the uniformity comes from sequences which naturally don't stray far from an origin.
15:51:32 <b_jonas> ais523: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_solid and 120
15:51:55 <korvo> https://extremelearning.com.au/unreasonable-effectiveness-of-quasirandom-sequences/ This classic post uses a Lambert projection to get up from a cube to a sphere. I wouldn't think that this is fast enough, but maybe it works for them.
15:53:47 <b_jonas> you may remember them from tom7's next video
15:56:08 <esolangs> [[FH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163498&oldid=163489 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1)
15:56:11 <ais523> b_jonas: that article gives a construction for 180
15:56:22 <esolangs> [[FH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163499&oldid=163498 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1)
15:56:36 <ais523> 180 edges, but 120 faces
15:56:42 <korvo> I found some old code. I used that above recipe, with the plastic ratio, to get a sampling pattern with no (aniso)tropic artifacts. It does have an isotropic textured look, but I prefer that to Moiré. https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/6da286a954f039e524c282c10cff1d6a43664d0f/mast/lib/samplers.mt#L173-L194
15:57:47 <korvo> Oh, I forgot that there's additional fun in there. I added T-testing for pixel sampling; instead of always taking thousands of samples/pixel, take exactly 3 samples and use a T-test to figure out how many more samples are required.
15:57:48 <ais523> although the funny thing is, it isn't particularly uniform-looking either, lots of gaps in the middle of the dual-decagons
15:58:38 <b_jonas> ais523: it won't give you more *symmetry* than a platonic solid, mind you, just more uniformity
15:58:45 <b_jonas> and it rolls better as a football
15:59:53 <ais523> yes, it is the most spherical of all Catalan solids
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17:49:07 <esolangs> [[BittyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163502&oldid=163500 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+1) /* See also */
17:58:44 <esolangs> [[BittyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163503&oldid=163502 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+7)
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18:00:13 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163505&oldid=163504 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+25) /* See also */
18:00:46 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163506&oldid=163505 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+0) /* just added categories */
18:00:59 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163507&oldid=163506 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+0) /* See also */
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20:33:25 <APic> Good Night, Worlds!
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21:06:31 <zzo38> Why did I receive a HTTP/0.9 request on a non-HTTP server? The file they requested is actually available on the port number they used, but not using HTTP.
21:20:32 <zzo38> There is a incomplete article about Spider solitaire; is there some relation with esoteric programming that someone might intend to write about?
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04:15:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163514&oldid=163483 * PrySigneToFry * (+14)
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07:25:42 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163518 * PrySigneToFry * (+3049) Created page with " is an esoteric programming language designed by PSTF, inspired from [[Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]]. = Command Table = {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands/Instructions |- ! Command !! What it does |- | # || Start program |- | <nowiki>+</nowiki> || Increment accumulato
07:26:57 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163519&oldid=163514 * PrySigneToFry * (+69)
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09:21:00 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser/vector.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163522 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+119) Created page with "body { background: #DDFFDD } p::before { content: "what to do in this thing "; color: white; font-size: 24px; }"
09:26:55 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163523&oldid=163501 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+202)
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14:47:53 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163530&oldid=160124 * PrySigneToFry * (+22)
15:04:38 <esolangs> [[FakeScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163531&oldid=133058 * Ractangle * (+14) /* See also */
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17:14:43 <esolangs> [[Ooord]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163532 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+334) Created page with "[[ooord]] joke esolang developed by [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]], where every character ords "o" =python implementation= <pre> for c in input(): ord(o) </pre> =examples= ==ord "o"== <pre> b </pre> ==output "111"== <pre> 0 </pre> ==output "111" 3 times== <p
17:16:26 <esolangs> [[Ooord]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163533&oldid=163532 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+5) /* python implementation */
17:17:50 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163534&oldid=163523 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+2) /* Newest Esolang */
17:18:16 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163535&oldid=163534 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+17) /* List of my esolangs */
17:19:19 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163536&oldid=163535 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+18) /* List of my esolangs */
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18:09:06 <esolangs> [[Delete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163545 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+374) Created page with "[[Delete]] is [[:Category:Joke languages|joke language]] inspired by [[&]], which works only if you delete it. =interpreter(python)= <pre> print("error: delete it") </pre> =examples= ==raise an error== <pre>igxeicciyfwkyfjhwvjdhvkhsbljveepjhepjggorhgiuefouteog
18:15:40 <esolangs> [[Adders]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163546 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+429) Created page with "Adders is a esolang with only one accumulator (but infinite variables) that uses code as variables to work Commands: + add 1 to the accumulator - subtract 1 from the accumulator @: Loop until accumulator is zero ... x = ... redefine or define x $(x
18:17:24 <esolangs> [[Adders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163547&oldid=163546 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+70)
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18:20:47 <esolangs> [[Delete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163551&oldid=163545 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+46)
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18:23:33 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163554&oldid=163536 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+18) /* D */ added [[Delete]]
18:23:57 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163555&oldid=163554 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+1) /* Newest Esolang */
18:25:17 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163556&oldid=162786 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+24)
18:30:28 <esolangs> [[Teleporto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163557&oldid=162616 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+64)
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18:51:37 <b_jonas> SMBC appearances of the demon Bozmodiklax the vile: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/why-3 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cleric http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lady-stuff https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/firstborn . Note that http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072 features a different cosmic horror, Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spawn of Cxaxukluth.
18:58:44 <b_jonas> nope, apparently there's at least three more. wow.
19:01:48 <b_jonas> SMBC appearances of the demon Bozmodiklax the vile, demon-duke of ruin: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/why-3 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cleric https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/wishes> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lady-stuff https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/trading-2 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/basilisk https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/firstborn . Note that
19:01:54 <b_jonas> http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072 features a different cosmic horror, Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spawn of Cxaxukluth.
19:05:54 <b_jonas> SMBC appearances of the demon Bozmodiklax the vile, demon-duke of ruin: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/why-3 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cleric https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/wishes http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lady-stuff https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/trading-2 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/basilisk https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/sacrifice-2
19:05:59 <b_jonas> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/firstborn . Note that http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072 features a different cosmic horror, Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spawn of Cxaxukluth.
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19:20:14 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163559&oldid=163529 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+52)
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19:21:54 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163561&oldid=163560 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1)
19:31:21 <b_jonas> possibly also http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-magic-was-inside-you
19:40:00 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163562&oldid=163526 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+120)
19:57:07 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen/Skyscraper]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163563 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+60) Created page with "you can make a different version of the cgol skyscraper here"
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20:35:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tag system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163564&oldid=163403 * Treeplate * (+115) /* Turing completeness */ new section
20:35:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tag system]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163565&oldid=163564 * Treeplate * (+1) fix sig
20:35:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tag system]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163566&oldid=163565 * Treeplate * (+84) attempt 2
20:43:23 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163567 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+1593) Created page with "{{Wip}} [[MoreThanZero]] is one of [[:Category:Stack-based|stack-based]] [[esoteric programming language]]s, which just editing the numbers by stack, and can't create useful programms, and it makes MoreThanZero unuseful. =Language Overview= MoreThanZer
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20:59:51 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163568&oldid=163567 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+104)
21:03:19 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163569&oldid=163568 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+115) /* Language Overview */
21:05:12 <esolangs> [[MTZ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163570 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+26) Redirected page to [[MoreThanZero]]
21:07:55 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163571&oldid=163558 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+31)
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22:07:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tag system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163572&oldid=163566 * Corbin * (+328) /* Turing completeness */ Yeah, I think so.
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22:27:25 <esolangs> [[Pootis]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163573 * SigmaOctantis * (+5556) Created page
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02:57:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Constant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163574 * Corbin * (+610) What's a constant anyway?
03:38:43 <esolangs> [[IceBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163575&oldid=142424 * DifferentDance8 * (+18) made it more obvious
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04:09:25 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163576 * DifferentDance8 * (+10421) Created page with "[[]] is a very cute and very Japanese esolang created by [[User:DifferentDance8]], based around the Japanese concept of ''kawaii'' ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%81%8B%E3%82%8F%E3%81%84%E3%81%84 which the esolang shamelessly borrows the name from]). As a matter o
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10:48:45 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163577&oldid=163571 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+141)
10:50:33 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163578&oldid=163577 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+30)
10:52:20 <esolangs> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163579&oldid=163520 * SzszszszszszszsZ * (+25)
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11:45:23 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163580&oldid=163569 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+15146)
11:51:58 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163581&oldid=163580 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+245)
11:54:17 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163582&oldid=163581 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+0) /* Python GUI IDE+File readwr+CLI */
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12:26:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * uploaded "[[File:MoreThanZeroLogo 20250818152024.png]]"
12:32:24 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163584&oldid=163582 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+138)
12:53:28 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163585&oldid=163584 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+303)
12:55:51 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163586&oldid=163585 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+8)
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16:24:56 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163587&oldid=163586 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+174) /* Examples */
16:25:08 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163588&oldid=163587 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (-2) /* Without comments */
16:35:54 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163589&oldid=163588 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+0) /* Output "Hi" */
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17:06:01 <esolangs> [[MoreThanZero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163590&oldid=163589 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+7)
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17:25:59 <esolangs> [[Waitforme]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163591 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+630) Created page with "=Interpreters= ==Python== <pre> # waitforme interpreter import time for c in input(): if c == "1": time.sleep(1) elif c == "2": time.sleep(2) elif c == "3": time.sleep(3) elif c == "4": time.sleep(4) elif c == "5": time.sl
17:32:44 <esolangs> [[Waitforme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163592&oldid=163591 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+337)
17:35:37 <esolangs> [[Waitforme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163593&oldid=163592 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+129)
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17:47:09 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163594&oldid=163578 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+32)
18:12:58 <korvo> Ugh, multivariate statistics.
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18:42:42 <esolangs> [[Category:Output only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163595&oldid=7885 * Corbin * (+1254) Hack out a polite explanation and give an example.
18:50:46 <int-e> LOL, I'm looking at the start of https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2542366691 (a successful 100% space age speedrun)... so one contentious recent change to Factorio is that for enemy-related achievements, the enemy settings on the starter world cannot be changed. Which makes them really hard. So how would you tweak the settings to still make a run feasible but not have to deal with so many biters...
18:52:09 <int-e> (and I'm now realizing that this is probably not noticable if you haven't seen other people generating factorio maps)
18:56:55 <int-e> (And now I'm wondering whether this trick is new or something people have always been doing. I rather suspect that it's Space Age 100% specific. For the base game you wouldn't have enough resources for scaling up for the 20M green chips (I think?) goal)
18:59:03 <korvo> I'm not familiar with the rules for Factorio. I would hope that the community has conventions for random-seed vs chosen-seed runs?
18:59:46 <int-e> Their 100% category has used random seeds since forever.
19:00:30 <korvo> Oh, I found it. Space Age isn't on the same leaderboard.
19:00:55 <int-e> The reasoning, IIUC is that since you have blueprints, and you could (but no longer can) almost completely turn off biters, the speedrun would boil down to executing the exact same, I don't know, 4h thing over and over again
19:01:37 <int-e> And Space Age uses the same rule(s).
19:01:43 <korvo> Some of us are into that. Horizon 1 is 3-4hrs depending on difficulty. Horizon 2 is 4hrs almost regardless of difficulty; so much loading and cutscenes.
19:02:02 <korvo> But yeah, it makes sense to wonder whether something makes a run too boring.
19:03:04 <int-e> Their Any% allows a fixed seed but no imported blueprints.
19:03:52 <korvo> Ah, okay. So that's the equivalent of e.g. Minecraft chosen-seed any%.
19:04:42 <int-e> I guess one part of this is that the last 2 or so hours are a lot of running around preparing train lines to outposts that are built by bots, which isn't even too challenging. And that would be even more boring if the patch locations were fixed
19:04:42 <korvo> Horizon 2 has an entire portion of the inventory, the Stash, that is forbidden in all categories. Even opening it is bad enough to invalidate a run, usually, since it can't easily be done by mistake. The issue is that the Stash *might* contain DLC weapons which trivialize the end of the game.
19:05:42 <int-e> Anyway. From waht I've seen they usually use map settings that generate *much* larger continents. It's rare to see the ocean on the initial map generation screen.
19:06:56 <korvo> Hm. Rare enough that people farm for seeds with ocean? Usually there's no rule against that, just frustration.
19:07:43 <int-e> Nah, it's a map generation setting that you can change, evidently.
19:08:28 <int-e> (Evident here because every reroll results in a pretty small island continent. Something I've never seen in other speedruns :) )
19:09:30 <korvo> Oh! Okay. I guess I don't know anything about Space Age at all. Thanks for explaining.
19:10:23 <int-e> Yeah I only realized after posting that the thing I laughed about requires some specific context.
19:11:16 <int-e> It happens :) I'm pretty sure b_jonas would get it without explanation. Though he might tell me that it's an old trick that has been in use since the ancient times.
19:12:11 <int-e> korvo: The last bit is that the enemies get more numerous and stronger the farther away you get from the starting point (center of the generated map)
19:12:23 <int-e> but they don't spawn in water ;)
19:12:35 <korvo> It's no biggie. I'm not bothered. But after working on reverse-engineering Minecraft I got kind of burnt out on the genre. I haven't put time into Factorio, Palworld, etc. On the plus side, I'm not playing any gachas.
19:13:50 <korvo> Oho, that makes sense but I guess it never clicked before. So map generation has to have enough land for building but enough nearby ocean to prevent the worst enemy spawns.
19:14:08 <int-e> I've somehow successfully avoided Minecraft. (By now it's poisened (tied to MS) so I'm no longer even at risk.)
19:14:11 <korvo> ...That is not a good sentence, whoops.
19:14:55 <int-e> I think I understood
19:15:33 <korvo> (There is an Anglophone joke about "why call them buildings? they already done, call them builts")
19:16:28 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163596&oldid=143993 * Ractangle * (+113) /* Syntax */ i tried
19:16:41 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163597&oldid=163596 * Ractangle * (-95) /* Syntax */ oops
19:23:22 <esolangs> [[Loading]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163598 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+233) Created page with "{{Wip}} {{infobox proglang |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |author=[[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] }} Loading [[:Category:Joke languages|joke]] [[esoteric programming language]], where you modifying the loading. =Language overwiev="
20:03:19 <esolangs> [[Gaham's Sequence Database-like Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163599 * Ractangle * (+256) will finish this later
20:05:05 <HackEso> [U+1630 CANADIAN SYLLABICS CARRIER LHE] [U+1633 CANADIAN SYLLABICS CARRIER LHA]
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21:20:45 <esolangs> [[Loading]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163600&oldid=163598 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+5635)
21:25:24 <esolangs> [[Gaham's Sequence Database-like Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163601&oldid=163599 * Ractangle * (+2)
22:21:39 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163602&oldid=161172 * Ais523 * (+16) /* A */ +[[AsciiDots]]
22:28:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Queuenanimous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163603&oldid=79637 * Ais523 * (+433) a followup
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22:47:18 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163604&oldid=163602 * Ais523 * (-20) /* T */ the list should name languages, not wiki pages: name the language and link to the page/section documenting it
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23:56:29 <esolangs> [[Mama,ILearnedhowto do]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163605 * A() * (+2206) Created page with "[[Mama,ILearnedhowto do]] is a programming langauge where you explain to your mother what you have learned. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Header text !! Header text |- | Mama. || start of program |- | . || end of line |- | I learned how to
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03:29:08 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163606&oldid=163323 * Placeholding * (+15)
03:30:34 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163607&oldid=163606 * Placeholding * (+0)
03:44:25 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/qoob derivatives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163608&oldid=161082 * PkmnQ * (+466) Add example tag system
03:46:21 <zzo38> This is something I am not sure where to write this.
03:47:22 <zzo38> The TV provider changed the TV again. Some people here still want to watch TV, and now it uses the TiVo Android TV, and it cannot be connected to the VCR, and the UI is even worse than it was before, and an external caption decoder cannot be used. I was trying to see if I could make it by myself in a better way.
03:48:44 <zzo38> I found the TV guide data in XML format (the time zone is wrong, but that is easy to work around). I also found the CBC television by internet, but it is M3U file that links to the video files that are only a few seconds each; why do they do it so badly? VLC can play them, but it says the version number is wrong if I try to play the M3U file directly.
03:54:03 <zzo38> Why are the designs this bad?
03:54:32 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163609&oldid=163607 * Placeholding * (+82)
03:57:09 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163610&oldid=163609 * Placeholding * (-27)
04:00:31 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163611&oldid=162641 * Placeholding * (+200)
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06:50:31 <esolangs> [[Delete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163612&oldid=163551 * None1 * (+1) /* */
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07:42:53 <Guest66> does anyone know how to contact the admins so that i can finally have a acc i've been trying to get an acc for like two hours
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08:36:42 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163613&oldid=163594 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+17)
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08:53:00 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163614&oldid=163511 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (-2) /* See also */
09:02:56 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163615&oldid=163614 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+18)
09:03:07 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii-2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163616 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+838) Created page with "{{Wip}} '''Dumbascii-2''' is essentially the same as [[Dumbascii]], it just adds two commands and custom file extension. =Language Overview= Dumbascii-2, like [[Dumbascii]], works with outputting ASCII characters, but it uses .dumbascii instead of .txt
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09:09:30 <wib_jonas> have you ever implemented sorting strings in an order something like libc's strverscmp function or (ls -v), which is mostly asciibetical order but sequences of digits are sorted primarily by their numeric value so "foo9" is before "foo10"? I just implemented a simple version (not equivalent to the libc function; still a total order on strings so I
09:09:30 <wib_jonas> get a consistent sort result), and I found it annoying to implement and I'm not satisfied with my implementation.
09:16:43 <wib_jonas> I'm not even trying to make it particularly efficient
09:18:02 <esolangs> [[Dumbascii-2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163617&oldid=163616 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+7) /* See Also */
09:21:59 <wib_jonas> https://dpaste.com/8M8Y8T7P9.txt shows my current implementation, the one that I'm not satisfied with
09:36:36 <esolangs> [[Everybody!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163618 * Ractangle * (+1657) new lanaguge droped
09:37:28 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163619&oldid=162618 * Ractangle * (+8) /* Esolangs */
09:39:14 <esolangs> [[Everybody!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163620&oldid=163618 * Ractangle * (+141)
09:40:48 <esolangs> [[@everyone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163621&oldid=156639 * Ractangle * (+105)
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11:15:02 <esolangs> [[Needle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163622 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+2683) Created page with "'''Needle''' is an esolang by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]. ==Description== The language uses wrapping tape of 3 cells and program inside an infinite loop * <code>_</code> - decrements current cell and moves right. Decrementing zero does nothing. * <code>(...)</code>
11:16:54 <esolangs> [[Needle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163623&oldid=163622 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+26)
11:18:13 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163624&oldid=148998 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+24)
11:18:52 <esolangs> [[Needle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163625&oldid=163623 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-1)
11:25:03 <wib_jonas> in current X11, can a program request the mouse position at a higher space resolution and time resolution as the display has? like, if I'm running the display at 1920x1024 pixels and 60 frames/s refresh, can I get the mouse position every 1/240 s and at a precision of half a screen pixel?
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11:26:09 <wib_jonas> it's fine if the events are delivered to the program only 60 times per second, as long as I get four positions at that point
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12:12:47 <esolangs> [[Free]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163626 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+2870) Created page with "{{wip}} '''Free''' is a [[:Category:Joke languages|joke]] [[esoteric programming language]] created as a parody language where the syntax is based entirely on digits and a few special symbols. The idea behind Free is that "syntax is price": every command cor
12:13:51 <esolangs> [[Free]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163627&oldid=163626 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+33) /* Examples */
12:14:27 <esolangs> [[Free]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163628&oldid=163627 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (-21) /* See also */
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12:46:56 <wib_jonas> I still passionately hate how in vim, if you delete a line that a bookmarks point to then the bookmark will no longer exist rather than point to the previous or next existing line!
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13:50:16 <strerror> wib_jonas: XIQueryPointer seems to (in theory) return fractional pixels. `xinput --test-xi2` to see if your device actually reports it
13:54:55 <strerror> Does anyone know an existing language for the kind of geometric constraints used for CAD sketching?
13:58:09 <strerror> The closest I've found is, Solvespace (solvespace.com) saves its sketches in a plain text language, though it's not designed to be used by humans directly
14:14:42 <wib_jonas> strerror: there's metafont and metapost, but they're very limited in the kind of constraints, only linear and you have to be very careful with the precision
14:14:52 <wib_jonas> so that's probably not what you want
14:15:11 <wib_jonas> strerror: thank you, I'll look at that
14:16:10 * ais523 continues to question whether putting backspace next to newline was a sensible keyboard layout decision
14:16:24 <ais523> it makes more sense in old-fashioned typewriters where backspace doesn't correct errors anyway, so you would hardly ever have to use it
14:16:44 <int-e> and now we're stuck with this layout.... FOREVER
14:17:28 <ais523> (the intended purpose of the backspace key on typewriters was to do overstrikes, like e backspace ` to create è, but IIRC you could also do that by holding down the space key and then tapping the characters you wanted to overstrike)
14:18:26 <ais523> now I remember how some early typewriters didn't have 0 or 1 keys, you were supposed to use capital O and capital I instead
14:22:27 <wib_jonas> I think some people move backspace over to the left, to either capslock or tab, I don't remember which
14:22:31 <ais523> I've read teaching manuals for typewriter operators, early typewriters had no way to correct mistakes short of retyping the entire page on a new sheet of paper, so they were very concerned with minimizing input errors
14:22:53 <ais523> caps lock is perhaps the most "competed" key on custom keyboard layouts
14:23:25 <ais523> I use it for compose, it's easier to type than shift-altgr (which doesn't even seem to work on my current OS)
14:23:43 <wib_jonas> that said, in text editors I sometimes just use control-H bound to backspace, for less hand movement
14:24:15 <ais523> Emacs bindings have ctrl-d as backspace, I think
14:24:40 <ais523> both esc and ctrl are commonly mapped over the caps lock location
14:24:52 <ais523> (esc for vim users and ctrl for Emacs users, typically)
14:25:08 <wib_jonas> emacs is a newfangled thingy, control-h preserved as backspace in text editors is at least as old as wordstar, probably older
14:25:17 <ais523> I find the caps lock feature useful occasionally but I don't use it often enough for it to have its own dedicated key, so I bind it to shift-shift
14:25:34 <ais523> (i.e. you use one shift key to modify the other shift key)
14:25:48 <APic> My Mother in her Job at the Post Office already had an electric Typewriter with a special Key that erased the last Character with Tipp-Ex-Fluid
14:25:53 <wib_jonas> yeah, I know, emacs is actually older, but I hadn't met emacs until later
14:26:19 <wib_jonas> ais523: control-D? I find that suspicious.
14:27:16 <ais523> I think the emacs documentation still has an FAQ along the lines of "I keep pressing backspace but it just makes the help menu appear" and the response is along the lines of "rebind all your other applications to no longer use backspace/Ctrl-H as a delete key then you'll stop making that mistake", which struck me as incredibly arrogant
14:27:40 <ais523> (modern terminals usually bind backspace to Ctrl-? rather than Ctrl-H, which avoids that problem)
14:27:58 <ais523> ah, Ctrl-D is delete forwards, not delete backwards
14:28:41 <ais523> at least with my bindings
14:30:14 <ais523> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Deletion.html implies that that is the default and there isn't a ctrl-letter combination for delete-backwards-char, which is really surprising to me
14:30:18 <wib_jonas> ais523: no, I think in emacs control-D and alt-D deletes forwards, control-? and alt-control-? delete backwards
14:30:36 <ais523> ctrl-? deletes forwards for me
14:31:09 <ais523> ctrl-? is apparently an undo command in the GUI ersion
14:31:17 <ais523> but I was testing out deletions recently, so…
14:33:45 <esolangs> [[Mama,ILearnedhowto do]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163629&oldid=163605 * A() * (+75) /* Hello */
14:34:57 <wib_jonas> ais523: I think undo should be control-_ , maybe you have some keyboard layout confusion
14:35:15 <ais523> wib_jonas: C-? is apparently specifically an undo for undos
14:35:30 <ais523> C-_ will undo other C-_ commands if you move the cursor in between, presumably C-? means you don't have to move the cursor
14:36:33 <ais523> (in terminals, C-? presumably acts like backspace because they have the same code)
14:38:00 <wib_jonas> ais523: ok, I think you lost me. I might be wrong about anything I say about emacs, I don't really use it anymore.
14:38:20 <ais523> I am not really into deep emacs lore, even though I use it as my primary editor
14:38:24 <ais523> for programming at least
14:38:59 <ais523> I think I still use three different editors on a regular basis (there are two more that I used to use)
14:39:38 <wib_jonas> ais523: that said, vim is configured by default to accept control-H as backspace in insert mode. I've configured at least one non-emacs non-vim editor to accept control-J as newline (I think it already accepted control-H as backspace, but control-J was bound to something else)
14:40:18 <wib_jonas> "deep emacs lore" how you backspace counts as deep lore?
14:40:38 <ais523> maybe! it was historically very complicated
14:40:47 <ais523> I think early shells used a printable character as backspace, maybe #?
14:41:11 <ais523> and it just appeared on the command line and you had to remember that neither it nor the previous character counted
14:41:49 <ais523> actually I think that setting still exists on modern computers but is not normally enabled
14:42:24 <ais523> <stty -a> erase = ^?; kill = ^U; eof = ^D; eol = <undef>;
14:44:06 <wib_jonas> ais523: I don't think that's right about the terminal, I think even early unix terminals used backspace as the backspace key, not a printable character, though they may have *echoed* it differently for hardcopy terminals (as opposed to crts), but it's possible that hash mark was used as the input character for either delete line or delete word
14:44:33 <ais523> wib_jonas: it is possible that the time I am thinking about was in the era of hardcopy terminals
14:45:23 <wib_jonas> yes, I just don't think anyone ever used a printable character to input backspace on them.
14:46:59 <esolangs> [[Mama,ILearnedhowto do]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163630&oldid=163629 * A() * (+60) /* Hello */
14:47:59 <wib_jonas> anyway, on vim I mostly use control-C instead of escape, also for finger movement save without having to change any layout
14:48:28 <wib_jonas> there are a few exceptions when control-C doesn't work, but they rarely come up
14:49:24 <ais523> hmm, so on old Unix, apparently the backspace key sent SIGINT (equivalent of ctrl-C in modern Unix)
14:49:58 <ais523> err, I mean the delete key
14:50:02 <ais523> or whichever one sends Ctrl-?
14:50:25 <ais523> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/13090
14:50:40 <ais523> also specifies # to delete one character and @ to delete the line
14:51:05 <wib_jonas> ais523: I'm not saying that it's the backspace *key*, I'm saying you use a control character, not a printable character, to input a backspace on even old unix
14:51:19 <ais523> wib_jonas: I linked an answer saying that it's a printable character
14:52:21 <ais523> another source: https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/57831
14:53:22 <wib_jonas> ais523: I see. I may be mistaken about the unix history then.
14:54:49 <esolangs> [[User:A()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163631&oldid=163093 * A() * (+27)
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15:55:33 <strerror> wib_jonas: interesting, I didn't know that. (I also don't recall this being a feature in drawing languages post-TeX, like tikz…)
16:03:53 <strerror> Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind more languages having syntactic built-ins for linear equalities. And inequalities too, they're not that much slower. (It's even called linear "programming".)
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16:23:46 <ais523> some golfing languages have builtins for finding roots of polynomials, which seems related
16:44:46 <strerror> If it's the one I'm thinking of, well... that's not multivariate polynomials. That language doesn't even have variables.
16:46:56 <strerror> Multivariate is mainly interesting because it connects the program with something other than memory or control flow.
16:47:52 <strerror> The most related thing in mainstream languages might be type inference
16:56:06 <korvo> Topology ends up being an important nuance. E has both `x..y` and `x..!y` operators for ranges, and those can express inequalities and ranges.
16:59:28 <ais523> strerror: ah, you're thinking in terms of something that isn't just a library, but baked in more heavily to the language?
17:00:14 <ais523> there are Prologs with constraint solvers, that can solve equation systems at a level that feels closer to the language than that of a typical library (but in some cases it's nonetheless implemented as a library)
17:04:06 <ais523> inclusive/exclusive range syntax is interesting because languages have mostly agreed on .. for ranges nowadays, but differ in how they indicate inclusive/exclusive
17:04:21 <ais523> e.g. Perl 6 has .. inclusive ..^ exclusive and Rust has ..= inclusive .. exclusive
17:05:19 <ais523> VHDL has "to" for a forward range and "downto" for a backward range
17:06:18 <ais523> ("downto" is commonly used in VHDL because it often represents numbers as arrays of bits, and the convention is to use big-endian order for the elements but little-endian order for the indexes, so the arrays get indexed backwards)
17:08:13 <strerror> Thanks, I'm looking up the Prolog libraries. It seems they're all named CLP, like CLP(R) for reals.
17:09:00 <korvo> Also whether the range is enumerable. In E or Haskell, it always is enumerable; this leads to the fun situation where a range of Doubles has quite a few elements. ("Long iterator! Longer than you think!") I fixed this in Monte, but only by separating range queries from enumerations.
17:09:32 <ais523> in a sense, enumerating a range of doubles feels like a failure of abstraction
17:09:53 <ais523> unless you actually care about the exact set of numbers a double can represent, rather than real numbers in genral
17:10:06 <ais523> (I have seen the former case come up, but only in the context of modelling the behaviour of a program that uses floating-point internally)
17:10:08 <korvo> strerror: That's a common pattern in Prolog. The idea is that CLP is something done over a chosen domain, and the shape of the domain matters a lot. The key phrase "finite domain" will help, since CLP(FD) is a common thing too.
17:10:38 <korvo> (Another example is CHR, which has a wiki page; it requires a host language, so there's CHR(Prolog), CHR(Java), etc.)
17:11:07 <ais523> apparently there was a fork of CLP(FD) called CLP(Z) – a SWI-Prolog project I contributed to used the latter
17:11:27 <ais523> but I don't know what the difference is/was
17:12:31 <strerror> Well, solving over integers is quite a bit more difficult than reals (at least as used in CAD geometry), so I'm avoiding that
17:12:57 <ais523> I think of solving over reals as being harder simply due to the difficulty of expressing the resulting values
17:13:04 <ais523> unless you allow approximate solutions
17:13:34 <ais523> I guess for CAD, you have an acceptable tolerance and as long as the solution is within tolerance, you're OK
17:16:20 <korvo> Solving for computable reals is usually a matter of fighting with opaque libraries with bad ergonomics. FEM doesn't work right with computable reals, but that's a limitation in FEM that recent work may have fixed (search "walk on stars", currently reading http://rohansawhney.io/RohanSawhneyPhDThesis.pdf)
17:19:02 <strerror> Quadratic equations are NP-hard to solve over integers (an old result from Adleman). Though, I just looked it up for quadratic real equations, and coincidentally it's of similar complexity. https://mathoverflow.net/questions/153436/
17:27:01 <korvo> That's a clever encoding. Integers are worse because they scale all the way up to Diophantine equations, IMO, but that might be a computability-theory perspective.
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17:33:00 <strerror> Yes, with integers it's easy to bump into undecidability
17:35:31 <strerror> Actually CAD constraints can be quite subtle. Identifying whether a (unique) solution exists is the hard part, not expressing it to more precision. It's easy to build complicated linkages and then assert that two points can be made to coincide
17:37:55 <strerror> A fully constrained (no continuous DoFs) sketch will have no solution or disconnected point solution(s), and it might not be obvious which case applies. Also it can be hard to tell whether the solution you're converging to is unique
17:39:29 <korvo> Yeesh, yes. When I worked on automatic CAD I fortunately was only working on subtractive manufacturing processes (CNC) and so we were mostly focused on encoding subtractions as CNC motions. Whether the subtraction produces the right piece was Somebody Else's Problem.
17:40:30 <strerror> (Some CAD software even treat an under-constrained sketch as invalid, I believe earlier versions of freecad did this? So in those systems, the engine always has to deal with the discrete solutions)
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17:50:20 <esolangs> [[Scurl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163632 * WarzokERNST135 * (+173) Created page with "{{lowercase}} [[scurl]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. The documentation and implementation of the esolang can be found [https://github.com/vblackmar/scurl here.]"
18:09:09 <b_jonas> "inequalities too, they're not that much slower." => have you ever looked for actual implementations of linear programming? I have, https://plato.asu.edu/sub/pns.html has a nice collection, but I have the impression that there's nothing that both has a convenient simple interface that I can easily use, and supports *sparse* linear programming (as opposed to one with a dense matrix of coefficients). and
18:09:15 <b_jonas> I'd like one. "not that much slower" is true in theory, but either I'm missing something or it's just not that easy in practice.
18:23:38 <strerror> Sparsity would be nice, but it seems that solvers (including free ones) can cope with thousands of variables: https://plato.asu.edu/ftp/lpopt.html
18:25:25 <strerror> (Actually based on the "nonzeros" counts, most of these benchmarks are at least somewhat sparse)
18:32:05 <b_jonas> strerror: yes, for practical purposes I could probably use just a dense solver, but it's sad that I have to. and if you tried to do this in something like CAD (I had a different application in mind) then you could easily grow to the size where dense is not practical.
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18:42:31 <strerror> b_jonas: Hmm, what do you mean by "dense solver"? I don't know how they're implemented, but the rows × columns on that benchmark page look far too large to be stored densely. The first one is 986069 × 428032
18:45:43 <b_jonas> strerror: so a linear programming program looks like A*x<=b where A is a given real matrix and b is a given real vector, and you want to find a vector x of positive reals that satisfies this if it exists. (There are variants, like usually you also want to minimize something, but that's not important here.) Dense means that A is a dense matrix, with all elements explicitly listed. But in practical
18:45:49 <b_jonas> problems, most of the elements of A will be zero, so if both b and x are long then it's worth to represent it as a sparse matrix, storing only the nonzero elements, and solve it this way with sparse matrix operations, never representing the full matrix in memory.
18:46:07 <b_jonas> A dense solver would be one that uses a dense matrix A, a sparse solver uses a sparse matrix A.
18:46:50 <strerror> If I'm reading that page correctly, most of those benchmark A's are too large to be dense
18:47:15 <b_jonas> strerror: which benchmark page?
18:47:29 <strerror> https://plato.asu.edu/ftp/lpopt.html
18:47:32 <b_jonas> I know that sparse solvers exist, but I'd also like something that's easy to use for a toy project
18:48:24 <b_jonas> strerror: ok, it looks like that compares multiple solvers in a benchmark
18:49:21 <b_jonas> anyway, I don't *really* need a full sparse LP solver, but it would be easier to just embed one if there's something with a simple interface and easy to install
18:49:36 <b_jonas> though I admit that "sparse matrix" and "simple interface" are kind of contradictory
18:49:53 <b_jonas> and I certainly don't need high performance for this
18:52:27 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163633&oldid=163366 * WarzokERNST135 * (-96)
18:53:07 <strerror> A sparse matrix is simple to write as coefficient-variable pairs. a1*x1 + a9999*x9999 + ...
19:16:14 <esolangs> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163634&oldid=111142 * Ractangle * (+496) /* Examples */
19:17:13 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163635&oldid=161757 * Ractangle * (+484) /* */
19:33:42 <ais523> plenty of languages nowadays have both arrays and maps as built-in objects
19:34:23 <ais523> a simple API for dense matrices would probably use some sort of array-of-arrays representation, if you convert those to maps instead the same API works for sparse matrices
19:34:45 <ais523> in fact, several languages, like Lua and PHP, treat dense arrays as special cases of sparse maps
19:34:56 <ais523> JS used to but I don't think it still does
19:35:32 <ais523> the problem is, those languages tend not to be the sort of systems programming languages that you would use to actually implement an efficient solver…
19:36:40 <ais523> so my guess is that the bad interfaces are caused by the libraries not bothering with trying to create ergonomic FFIs
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23:25:50 <ais523> !zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
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03:32:24 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163641&oldid=163610 * Placeholding * (+5)
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05:49:33 <zzo38> I read about the Legasm and I think of some things that could be done differently if I would be designing it better. The flag register seems only used for carry, so now it will be the carry register instead, set to 1 or 0 by addition and to -1 or 0 by subtraction, and the ones the adc and sbb will add the previous value of the carry register to the result.
05:51:44 <zzo38> For the insrtuctions that sign-extend immediate values, I would just have it automatically set all of the high bits regardless of the value, since otherwise you could use the unsigned variants if the value to set is a constant anyways.
05:55:35 <zzo38> I would also think to add instructions for multiplication and division, and for rotate through carry, and to have two stacks. (The push and pop instructions currently have many unused bits, so possibly some of them can be used to select any arbitrary register to use for the stack pointer.)
05:57:55 <zzo38> (The existing stack pointer can be used for subroutine calls.)
06:01:03 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163642&oldid=163340 * Corbin * (+14) Remove undiscussed category. See also Deadfish, a likely influence.
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06:18:13 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163643&oldid=162824 * Corbin * (+301) Fix categories. Refactor to emphasize that this is a TBS.
07:17:59 <b_jonas> strerror: thank you, I tried xinput --test-xi2 , and it does seem like I get subpixel precision mouse coordinates when I move the mouse slowly to not trigger mouse acceleration. I don't get much more precision than a pixel, but that of course can depend on the mouse and the speed setting, so I'm fine with that.
07:34:11 <strerror> b_jonas: Did it have temporal precision as well? (I'm not sure if xinput can determine this, you might need to do the mouse query in a tight loop)
07:39:08 <esolangs> [[OBrainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163644 * L4.m2 * (+481) Created page with "oBrainfuck is like brainfuck but the k-th <code>[</code> matches the k-th <code>]</code>. aka, the k-th <code>[</code> matches in C <code>goto Rk;Lk:</code> and the k-th <code>]</code> matches in C <code>Rk:if(*cur)goto Lk;</code>.<code>+-<>,.</code> work same. Thus,
08:06:16 <b_jonas> strerror: I don't know, with those arguments it's not printing any timestamps so it's slightly more tricky to test for that and I haven't tried yet, and I'm not familiar with xinput in general
08:06:36 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163645&oldid=145100 * Corbin * (+615) Fix capitalization. Update bluelinks. Stub a section on computability.
09:06:33 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163646&oldid=163203 * Corbin * (+3689) Sketch the Diophantine path. This wasn't part of my education and I'm going to have to do a lot of reading in order to shore it up; nonetheless this captures the important bits.
09:07:39 <korvo> I'm gonna have to sleep on this new section. Rice's theorem (and Gödel's first incompleteness) are very weird-tasting for Diophantine equations.
09:09:03 <korvo> Pick a sufficiently-strong language of arithmetic. Its set of proofs is Diophantine. Its set of WFFs is Diophantine. Its set of provable WFFs is *not* Diophantine; that's Rice's theorem! So there's a way to pen-and-paper all of the proofs that are valid, but not all of the provable statements.
09:27:20 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163647&oldid=163645 * Corbin * (+841) /* Computability */ A new approach to Halting for BF: BF can encode Diophantine searches! No input or output commands needed, just a pre-allocated output register.
09:29:16 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163648&oldid=156122 * RixTheTyrunt * (+262) /* Truth-machine */
10:34:31 <strerror> Perhaps the wiki could link to oddball, counter-intuitive (and in that sense *esoteric*) characterizations of RE
10:34:59 <strerror> Like Demaine & Hearn's game (a finite multiplayer game with finite hidden information at each turn), or the claimed proof of MIP*=RE (https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=4512)
10:36:16 <strerror> There have also been attempts to disprove the Navier-Stokes smoothness conjecture by constructing zeno machines in the model, though none have worked yet
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11:18:54 <esolangs> [[GolfScratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163649&oldid=141449 * Ractangle * (+488) /* External links */
11:19:08 <esolangs> [[GolfScratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163650&oldid=163649 * Ractangle * (+1) /* External links */
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13:20:03 <esolangs> [[Espaol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163651&oldid=81407 * MijiGamin1 * (-18) fixed beginning sentence
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18:35:35 <ais523> is there a general name for the type of garbage collector that looks through memory to determine what's unreferenced (e.g. mark/sweep, generational, compacting), as opposed to things like reference counting which can also be considered a form of garbage collection?
18:41:01 <korvo> "tracing", from "A unified theory of GC" https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse590p/05au/p50-bacon.pdf
18:44:10 <ais523> korvo: ah, that makes sense – I have heard the terminology before but forgot
18:45:03 <korvo> ais523: No worries. The unified theory is not even a decade old and we live in an industry that actively spreads misinformation about GC; it takes a lot of active effort to just kind of remember that this exists, and I had to dig for a few minutes to find it.
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18:47:40 <ais523> korvo: although I'm not surprised about the misinformation, I don't think I've been on the receiving end of it much
18:47:45 <ais523> what sort of things does the industry say?
18:48:13 <korvo> GC is slow, interrupting, unmanageable, requires tuning, etc.
18:49:06 <ais523> fwiw I suspect that the "correct" way to do things is some sort of mixture where some things are GCed and other things have their allocation and deallocation times statically calculated and proven at compile time
18:49:58 <korvo> Sure. RPython has an explicit malloc-removal phase at compile time along with a choice of hybrid GCs at runtime, and all evidence suggests that this is the right direction.
18:50:13 <ais523> generational GCs existing is kind-of ridiculous from my point of view, because it's an optimisation to easily clean up the short-lived objects – but usually you can statically determine from the program when the short-lived objects need deallocating, and it is the long-lived objects which are more interesting to GC
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18:51:06 <ais523> there usually seems to be about a 10× speedup when people port from GCed languages to Rust, but I suspect the speedup may be based more on the static typing than the lack of GC
18:51:33 <korvo> "Using [the BCR] framework, [BCR] show that all high-performance collectors are in fact hybrids of tracing and RC'ing. ...[The BCR cost model] allows the correct scheme to be selected based on ... performance requirements and the ... properties of the ... application."
18:52:01 <ais523> although they probably exist, I can't think offhand of any widely used languages which a) are GCed and b) have non-primitive types that are sufficiently static to optimise the generated code based on knowledge of the type
18:52:33 <korvo> OCaml? OCaml, Haskell, and RPython are all environments where GC is part of how I expect to reliably beat Rust on speed.
18:53:27 <ais523> hmm, I actually don't know that much about ocaml's internals, except for the "everything is either a pointer or an integer with one reserved bit" thing
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18:53:48 <ais523> (with the reserved bit being used to distinguish integers from pointers in memory so that a GC can trace them without having to know the types)
18:54:49 <korvo> My perspective is likely skewed. I see the C++ memory model that Rust inherited as a big speed barrier. Fortran's memory model is better, but both Haskell's lazy model and OCaml's strict model (or Cammy or other CAM-likes) have their own further advantages.
18:55:20 <ais523> Rust only shares C++'s memory model with respect to atomics/multithreading, I think – they're different in other respects
18:55:45 <korvo> Yeah, at the value level, OCaml values are just tagged. I don't know of a good writeup, but CHICKEN Scheme uses almost the same setup and there's a great post on that: https://www.more-magic.net/posts/internals-data-representation.html
18:57:09 <ais523> my thoughts on all this are along the lines of "it is definitely possible to do better than Rust, but I think I have to really understand Rust first in order to beat it"
18:57:38 <ais523> I think C may also be beatable (for code written idiomatically), primarily through compiler optimisations that wouldn't be valid in C
18:58:31 <ais523> err, I meant "via" rather than "through" I think, English is hard sometimes
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19:03:11 <ais523> English doesn't have an instructive case so we have to try to fake it using prepositions
19:07:52 <korvo> My experience is from Python-driven HPC, so maybe this is not something you've seen before, but IMO the atomics and multithreading *are* the issue. Suppose we have an embarrassingly-parallel for-loop and we're using something like OpenMP. When the compiler is optimizing blocks, it has to determine whether any pointers in the block are used elsewhere, because it needs to know whether it can safely remove loads/stores.
19:08:20 <korvo> *Fortran's memory model is better than C's model. It straight-up doesn't permit as much aliasing.
19:16:29 <ais523> korvo: nor does Rust's
19:18:14 <ais523> e.g. unless you use a type that is explicitly defined as a special case, function arguments that are references cannot alias with each other unless they are read-only, but the assumption that something is not aliased is less powerful than an assumption that it is read-only
19:19:09 <ais523> rustc puts an LLVM "noalias" attribute on every function argument (that isn't a defined special case or raw pointer) because of that, which is the same thing that Fortran's memory model lets you do
19:20:12 <ais523> (the guarantees for things that aren't function arguments are complex and not fully decided yet – I have been writing a blog post about it, it's the same blog post where I discuss how linear logic's ? seems to be present in Rust)
19:20:44 <ais523> but, LLVM only knows how to optimise based on non-aliasing assumptions for function arguments, because C and Fortran only have them in that location
19:21:10 <ais523> (to be precise: they don't alias each other nor alias global variables, that's true for Rust and for C restrict, I am not sure about Fortran but it probably has the same rule)
19:21:37 <ais523> and don't alias memory reached via each other either
19:22:10 <korvo> Yeah. Rust or e.g. Pony extend Fortran's approach by making it possible to have immutable objects, so that we *don't care* if they're aliased. If all the threads want to access some constant input data, then those accesses can be optimized away sometimes.
19:23:30 <ais523> anyway, atomics are one of those special-cased that are allowed to be aliased – they wouldn't be very useful otherwise
19:26:53 <esolangs> [[Onlydot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163654 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+374) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{wip}} :'''Onlydot' writing in full in lower case, excepting start of proposal.'' '''[[onlydot]]''' is [[:Category:Joke languages| joke]] [[esoteric programming language]] where valid command is only <code>.</code>. =Language overview= onlydo
19:27:21 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163655&oldid=163637 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+4) /* Newest Esolang */
19:28:00 <esolangs> [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163656&oldid=163655 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+15) /* O */
19:30:19 <korvo> Yes, definitely. But maybe atomics aren't necessary.
19:31:39 <korvo> In Monte, there aren't any atomic variables. Instead, everything is serialized into "turns", which are single deliveries of single events to a single thread. Any cross-thread communication is done via the same generic IPC mechanism as cross-machine communication: promises!
19:32:30 <ais523> I think atomics are mostly only necessary in cases where you need blocking-free algorithms, i.e. a guarantee that any given thread can make progress even if all others are paused
19:32:46 <korvo> To let threads share starting data, each thread can be given a transitively-immutable object. Incidentally, Monte modules are transitively immutable at import time. After that, they have to send messages asynchronously to communicate.
19:33:17 <ais523> signal handlers are a notable example of that, because they block the thread to which the signal was sent
19:33:53 <ais523> "how do you allocate memory from a signal handler" has been a longstanding area of interest for me, existing programming frameworks make it unreasonably difficult and yet it is a potentially useful thing to do
19:34:20 <ais523> (at least, it's unreasonably difficult if you want to be able to deallocate the memory again, from outside the handler)
19:35:54 <korvo> signalfd makes it straightforward on Linux. Taming signals is historically a nasty thing, and if it weren't for signalfd then I wouldn't have bothered at all.
19:40:55 <korvo> ais523: So, one other nice thing about any sort of referentially-transparent machine, whether it's lazy or strict, is that *any* algebraic optimizations are valid when inlining. SML/NJ, OCaml, GHC, and other popular compilers all have some sort of straight-line monomorphic detection phase that "strictifies" or "destackifies" with respect to that algebra.
19:42:18 <korvo> I don't know exactly how referentially transparent Rust is. I hear that LLVM Rust is already starting to be sensitive to phase ordering in LLVM, which is not a good sign.
19:44:01 <shachaf> ais523: You can just call mmap, right?
19:50:25 <ais523> shachaf: I was allocating small things, but I guess that *would* work
19:51:41 <ais523> korvo: Rust feels like it's kind-of sort-of meant to be referentially transparent but a lot of things break that in practice
19:52:27 <ais523> unsafe code allows you to do a lot of things that seem like the memory model shouldn't allow them, and yet it continues to be supported because it would break too much code if it wasn't
19:52:53 <korvo> ais523: Okay, good to hear. Or bad to hear, but good for my expectations. Or bad for my expectations because I shouldn't be so cynical...
19:53:36 <korvo> I suppose that the flip side of this is that there's thousands of lines of Monte code that merely reimplement standard floating-point routines because there wasn't a safe way to get those routines from existing C/C++ code.
19:53:38 <ais523> one thing I realised while working on the ? blog post is that the standard traits Clone and Debug can both be meaningful for both a) smart pointers and b) the objects they point to
19:53:54 <ais523> but, for Clone you usually want to clone the pointer itself and for Debug you usually want to debug the value inside
19:55:15 <ais523> and I think this is a design flaw – it feels like Rust wants a rule "implementing a trait on a value also implements it on smart pointers to that value", which means that Clone and Debug should probably really be CloneAs<T> and DebugAs<T> that let you specify which level of indirection you want to clone at or debug at
19:56:05 <ais523> ("feels like" is partly just feelings, but also partly soundness bugs that have come about as a consequence of people not realising that a custom reference (smart pointer) type and the object it points to could implement the same standard trait in entirely unrelated ways)
19:56:26 <korvo> Right. Move semantics suddenly imply subtyping rules, somehow.
19:56:58 <ais523> I don't think this is actually based on the move semantics, it's a different aspect of the language design and one that I don't think is as fundamental
19:58:12 <ais523> although, I'm also not sure the Deref/DerefMut traits know what they actually are – they have a defined API but it is less clear what they actually *mean*, in terms of what assumptions you can make when using that API
19:58:21 <korvo> In Monte, m`def x :T := z` desugars to roughly m`def &&x := makeBinding(T.coerce(z, null), makeFinalSlot(T))`. There are exactly two levels of underlying indirection (slot and binding) and they may only be captured or introspected in order to facilitate that .coerce/2 method.
19:58:34 <ais523> (other than "you can't make any assumptions because they are safe to implement with arbitrary code, thus anything that isn't guaranteed by the API isn't guaranteed by the compiler")
19:59:46 <korvo> This is another surprising limitation of C-style memory management: being able to take a pointer of a pointer *of a pointer* is too much; at some point, you're going to take a pointer into Somebody Else's Memory that you are borrowing for stack/locals.
20:00:36 <ais523> this is the whole Three Star Programmer thing that I named the language after, isn't it?
20:00:57 <korvo> In E or Monte, if x is a local name then `x` dereferences, `&x` gets the slot, and `&&x` gets the binding. There isn't a generic operator & which takes any value; it must be a name in scope, so `&42` doesn't do anything.
20:01:40 <ais523> in Rust you can use the borrow operator & on anything, if necessary it creates a temporary and gives you a reference to that
20:01:59 <ais523> you can write &&&42 and get a reference to a reference to a reference to 42
20:02:09 <ais523> I am not sure I agree with this
20:02:48 <korvo> We have the same ergonomics. m`var x := whatever; f(&x)` will pass a mutable slot, and m`def f(&x) { x += 5; ... }` accepts the mutable slot and sets it up in the local scope as something that can be mutated with augmented assignments.
20:02:49 <ais523> (the program will be rejected if the compiler can't make the reference live long enough, but there are at least two ways in which the lifetime of the reference can be extended, so it works in more cases than it looks like it sohuld be able to)
20:03:51 <ais523> one of the things I dislike most about Rust is how much it does that's implicit in the syntax, in order to try to make the program meaningful
20:03:54 <ais523> you can write it explicitly but usually don't
20:04:51 <ais523> in particular, pattern matches have a whole lot of dereferencing and referencing added implicitly – you can be explicit but usually aren't – and I basically end up relying on compiler error messages to work out what is or isn't a reference when working with htem
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20:15:55 <ais523> korvo: thanks for your earlier link to the paper about how to hybridise tracing and reference counting – the content feels like information that is beneficial for me to know
20:16:29 <korvo> ais523: No biggie. It made a big splash in the JIT world a few years ago but doesn't seem to have become more popular.
21:11:43 <b_jonas> "Rust only shares C++'s memory model with respect to atomics/multithreading, I think" => also in that both allow memory to be in an uninitialized state where it's UB to read even as a type like uint8_t where any combination of bits is valid, even when writing the same memory would be fine
21:15:07 <b_jonas> in both C++ and rust if a vector allocates memory with more capacity than size, the memory will be in that uninitialized state, and the program has to make sure to initialize it before use
21:16:45 <esolangs> [[Maybegolf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163657 * DumbEsolangsOrgUser * (+144) Created page with "{{Wip}} [[Maybegolf]] is [[esoteric programming language]] for golf, emphasis on the multitude of commands and the unification of some into one."
21:20:43 <korvo> I think that you can get uninitialized memory in GHC Haskell if you ask for it, with some sort of primitive Array type. It's not possible in Monte or Pony though.
21:21:23 <korvo> E and Monte actually have some determinism requirements. E never quite figured out randomness and Monte requires it to be passed around like an RNG monad.
21:24:00 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163658&oldid=163646 * Corbin * (+948) /* Via Diophantine equations */ Define Diophantine equations and sets. I need to figure out whether listability (effective enumerability) and Davis normal form need to be mentioned here.
21:42:01 <ais523> <b_jonas> also in that both allow memory to be in an uninitialized state where it's UB to read even as a type like uint8_t where any combination of bits is valid, even when writing the same memory would be fine ← so although Rust and C++ both do that, the rules are actually different!
21:42:29 <ais523> in C++, memory that is initialised using an object of one type can't be read through a pointer of a different type
21:42:43 <ais523> so memory isn't just initialised, it's initialised with a particular type
21:43:03 <ais523> Rust's rule is different, memory that has been initialised using any type can be read using any other type that can hold the same range of values, except for padding bytes
21:43:14 <ais523> so, e.g., Rust lets you read the second byte of a float as u8 and C++ doesn't
21:43:39 <ais523> this means that C++ needs a special case for "the type that memcpy uses to copy bytes around"
21:43:46 <ais523> whereas Rust can just use u8
21:44:31 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I think atomics are mostly only necessary in cases where you need blocking-free algorithms" => I think there's at least one more use case. Suppose you have a lot of small objects that are rarely shared and rarely written, but you can't prove that they aren't shared so you have to use some thread-safety for them. An inter-thread mutex in every object would be logical, but as the objects are
21:44:37 <b_jonas> small it would consume more memory and might even use more bandwidth to the memory shared between cpu threads, so accessing the objects atomically is probably better.
21:44:37 <ais523> the difference leads to some interesting consequences sometimes, e.g. in Rust's model it matters whether bytes are part of a pointer or not, so if you, e.g., reverse the bytes in a pointer by reading them as u8, then reverse them again, there's some issue with whether you're allowed to read from the resulting pointer or not
21:44:40 <b_jonas> But I'm not really sure about this.
21:44:45 <ais523> I think the answer changed to "you aren't" to "you are" recently
21:44:54 <ais523> * changed from "you aren't" to "you are"
21:46:12 <b_jonas> ais523: ah, so C++ has more complicated rules about what memory counts as uninitialized. true. I don't understand those rules much because they don't come up often in practice.
21:46:19 <b_jonas> at least not in the code that I write.
21:46:42 <ais523> b_jonas: occasionally I need to type-pun and have to remember the legal way to do that
21:47:04 <ais523> in C, I believe that memcpy is sufficient, as long as you memcpy the actual bytes you are reinterpreting and not a pointer to them
21:47:31 <ais523> in Rust, transmuting a pointer is sufficient (and transmuting a reference is OK as long as you match size and alignment and lifetime)
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21:53:03 <b_jonas> ais523: re Deref/DerefMut, yes, I don't think there's much semantics they're supposed to represent, so you'd rarely write code that's generic over the trait. those traits are there to allow user code to define new types that can use a syntactic sugar of omitting the splat when you're calling a method. it's sort of like the Mul trait, which is there so you can define new types that can use the infix *
21:53:09 <b_jonas> operator for syntactic convenience, not because there's some general semantics that all Mul types satisfy.
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21:54:27 <ais523> b_jonas: is that a generic "you"? I personally would write such code but I may be the only person who does
21:55:49 <b_jonas> "<korvo> In E or Monte, if x is a local name then `x` dereferences, `&x` gets the slot, and `&&x` gets the binding. There isn't a generic operator & which takes any value" => is that like perl package variables where you can use $x by value, use $x by reference (including assigning to it), or use *x by reference, but you can't go deeper.
21:55:52 <ais523> https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/129147#issuecomment-3026624324
21:57:16 <ais523> (the link is me arguing that method receivers that are generic over Deref should be allowed, with caveats, and explaining why I want it)
21:57:40 <ais523> unfortunately I have to post it on Github because that's where Rust's issue tracker is
22:03:12 <b_jonas> "Rust lets you read the second byte of a float as u8" => not really related to the memory models, but fortunately Rust added a safe high-level wrapper for that now. and you might need to use it because the standard library still doesn't have a frickin' ldexp/scalbn or frexp/ilogb builtin. nor good ways to strigify floats for that matter.
22:07:13 <b_jonas> though float/int transmutes are an important enough special case that the library functions are worth it for other reasons even if you have a working ldexp/frexp like in C++
22:07:52 <korvo> b_jonas: Same sort of idea, I think, yes. I don't fully understand the whole Perl/PHP way of looking up names; there's probably a piece of history that I don't know.
22:08:03 <ais523> yes, float/int transmutes are in the standard library (and safe), I was quite impressed when I saw them
22:08:13 <b_jonas> I want to use them for serializing floats, manipulating nans, and more
22:08:15 <korvo> But E does heavily borrow from Perl. Some of E's pattern matching comes from the =~ operator, for example.
22:08:40 <b_jonas> korvo: piece of history => yes
22:09:07 <ais523> I even used them recently, except that I was writing a C program so I had to do the transmute with memcpy instead
22:09:50 <ais523> (the context was a "how many digits are there in this integer" function, which was being used in memory allocation code that calculated how long a string would eventually be when formatted)
22:10:05 <b_jonas> korvo: anyway, even for perl lexically local variables where that history isn't relevant, you can take a reference to such a local variable, but taking a reference to a reference isn't very useful, you'd just get a reference to a temporary and that temporary would be different each time
22:10:31 <ais523> in Rust, you can't normally ==-compare things unless they have the same level of indirection
22:10:56 <ais523> so when you end up with a double indirection (e.g. when iterating over a list of references without consuming it), you often end up with code like |x| x = &&6
22:11:30 <ais523> there are various ways to avoid this situation happening but sometimes the double reference is the most obvious way to express it
22:11:39 <ais523> (this is, of course, another way in which Rust fails at referential transparency)
22:12:00 <ais523> of course, in C++, prefix && has a different meaning to two prefix &s
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10:47:17 <esolangs> [[Universal Turing-completness Proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163673&oldid=108799 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-2338) Blanked the page
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12:04:55 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163674&oldid=144778 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1) /* brainfuck in Uppercase=Lowercase */ fixed an error
12:05:12 <esolangs> [[Uppercase=Lowercase]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163675&oldid=142683 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+2) /* brainfuck interpreter */
12:35:44 <esolangs> [[SStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163676&oldid=121660 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+28) /* Commands */ I am not sure what ~x~ meant but it was most likely a pop command
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16:26:36 <Sgeo> "Single-precision floating-point numbers are the kind most often used in
16:26:36 <Sgeo> calculations, since "real-world" applications usually need numbers with
16:26:36 <Sgeo> fractional parts. (Prices are a good example.)"
16:26:39 <Sgeo> https://www.pcjs.org/documents/books/mspl13/basic/qblearn/
16:40:17 <strerror> 1988… the x87 FPU was still a separate product
16:42:45 <strerror> Double precision may have been too slow to use as a default type without hardware support
16:46:17 <Sgeo> So beware: NOT expression is false only if expression evaluates to a value
16:46:17 <Sgeo> of -1. If you define Boolean constants or variables for use in your
16:46:17 <Sgeo> programs, use -1 for true.
16:46:22 <Sgeo> https://www.pcjs.org/documents/books/mspl13/basic/qbprog/
16:57:28 <ais523> Microsoft's later versions of BASIC also used -1 for true
16:57:41 <ais523> I think it may have been intended to avoid needing separate logical and bitwise operators
16:58:22 <ais523> in general, -1 for true seems to be the most hardware-friendly implementation (you also have weirdnesses like x86_64 using 1 for true in setcc instructions but -1 for true in SIMD)
17:03:22 <Sgeo> I saw a computer running Cassette BASIC recently (I think they just didn't have a floppy for it to boot anything), so that sort of revitalized my interest. Didn't know QBasic&QuickBASIC had a way to define custom types
17:04:01 <Sgeo> Or that QB64 and forks aren't as backwards compatible as I assumed (no DEF FN support, which exists in QBasic/QuickBASIC even if not recommended). And PC-BASIC as a GW-BASIC clone
17:06:57 <Sgeo> I know BBC BASIC and Locomotive BASIC were pretty well liked and better for structured programming, I wonder how they compare to QuickBASIC
17:17:32 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163677&oldid=163658 * Corbin * (+956) /* Via Diophantine equations */ Still puzzling this out. Robinson 1952 doesn't actually do what Matiyasevich says it does? The definition of JR set differs between authors? The other two papers are paywalled and I'll have to grab them later.
17:19:58 <korvo> Okay, I still have to figure out what happened in the 1950s, but at least I understand the M part of MRDP.
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18:09:55 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163678&oldid=163677 * Corbin * (+460) /* Via Diophantine equations */ Clean out the irrelevant and give a decent story. References include three good perspectives; from D, M, and R no less!
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19:30:57 <esolangs> [[Algebraic Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163679&oldid=163647 * Corbin * (-10) /* Computability */ Bluelink.
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20:28:01 <Sgeo> " It's possible, as any computer science student will tell you, to write entire programs without ever using a GOTO statement. That may be carrying structured programming too far, but the structured IF is a much-needed addition to BASIC.
20:28:04 <Sgeo> https://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue80/ibm_personal_computing_quickbasic.php
20:57:05 <b_jonas> Sgeo: structured IF is great, but the syntax chosen for BASIC also sucks. If I ever make my BASIC dialect (unlikely, because I'll instead use a non-BASIC language for whatever purpose the BASIC would serve), I'll add an alternate syntax that's just WHEN...WEND looking like WHILE...WEND but it's a conditional
20:57:22 <b_jonas> and WHEN...WELSE...WEND if you want an else branch
20:59:50 <b_jonas> I might be getting history wrong here, but as far as I understand, BASIC started out with a structured FOR but no strucured IF because it just copied what Fortran did at the time
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21:05:55 <Sgeo> Not a lot of BASICs with built in matrix manipulation, right?
21:06:03 <Sgeo> Besides the original
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21:25:14 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, BASIC's syntax is bad, but I don't think WHEN…WEND would be an improvement :-D
21:26:12 <ais523> also, I think the standard loop in Fortran is DO which is even weirder syntax-wise
21:26:41 <ais523> the loop header specifies the line number where the loop ends, there isn't any particular marking for the end of the loop so you just have to remember that its particular line number has been marked as a loop end
21:26:55 <ais523> I think this mechanism is often compared to COME FROM
21:55:17 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that's only old Fortran, but I don't know if Fortran fixed it before or after BASIC started its FOR..NEXT loops
21:55:30 <b_jonas> and yes, that totally sounds like COME FROM
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22:13:39 <zzo38> I didn't know they did that in Fortran, but some binary formats will indicate the end of a block in a similar way
22:14:10 <zzo38> Another variant of COME FROM would be that the line must be marked as one which is used by COME FROM without saying what line will come from that one
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22:43:25 <ais523> I've used disassemblers which mark jump targets in the disassembly, it's sometimes useful
22:43:34 <ais523> so maybe the ideal is for both ends of a jump to mark the other
22:58:51 <b_jonas> aren't both ends marked in basically every language, with the big exception of early BASICs that force every line to have a line number because that's what the editor uses to refer to them?
22:59:20 <b_jonas> one end (usually the target) is marked by a line label or line number, the other end by a statement like go to or go sub
22:59:45 <b_jonas> (often behind a conditional)
23:01:30 <b_jonas> the problem is that BASIC uses line numbers for a dual purpose: for the editor, and as jump targets, so you can't easily tell which lines are jump targets
23:18:07 <zzo38> I had used in assembly language for the jump target to specify where it jumps from in some cases, which is similar, so it is not only in a disassembler. Usually I think only one side needs to specify which side is the other side, although both sides will be marked as from or to
00:36:31 <esolangs> [[SECRET PUZZLE!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163680 * Mouldyair * (+865) Created page with "SECRET PUZZLE is a simple text based programing language made by [[user:Mouldyair]]. ==SYNTAX== to write a program in SECRET PUZZLE you simply type the program into a blank text document, documents can use any unicode characters, have any number of lines, with e
00:37:58 <esolangs> [[User:Mouldyair]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163681&oldid=163662 * Mouldyair * (+24)
00:50:49 <ais523> b_jonas: normally both ends are marked but the jump target doesn't say where the jump source is, just that it is a jump target
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01:09:20 <b_jonas> ais523: no, they both say it just as much, there's a freeform label that's the same in both the jump and the target, so if there's no weird shenanigans like computed goto then the difference between a goto-label and a label-comefrom is just the keywords. though you could say that a label doesn't say how many gotos are pointing there, so you don't know when to stop searching for gotos.
01:09:45 <ais523> ah, that's an interesting viewpoint
01:10:10 <ais523> so I guess the interesting part of the design space is "linear labels" which you can only jump to from one location in the code
01:10:32 <ais523> meaning that if there are multiple jumps to the same location, you have multiple labels next to each other to indicate that
01:10:44 <ais523> come to think of it, that's pretty much what Incident does
01:11:28 <ais523> I guess another asymmetry in most practical languages is that the behaviour of jumping out of scopes is much easier to define than the behaviour of jumping into scopes
01:12:00 <ais523> (although there are challenges in both directions, and those challenges mirror each other to some extent, dropping an object that shouldn't exist is generally much easier than conjuring an object that should)
01:12:20 <b_jonas> ais523: also that for a conditional jump you write the condition before the goto, not before the comefrom, so from that you can tell it's a goto statement
01:13:30 <ais523> if condition { label:; } … comefrom label; has the right semantics, but the condition is still on the end you jump from
01:14:47 <ais523> doing it at the other end would be something like label:; … nextfrom label; if condition { forget 1; } else { resume 1; }
01:15:14 <ais523> which is how INTERCAL does conditionals, but I don't think anyone else does, and it's significantly different in the way it works
01:15:54 <b_jonas> normally you'd write comefrom (condition ? label : invalidlabel), though in intercal in particular even the invalid label that never executes has to syntactically exist, and of course you have to write the conditional as an intercal expression which can be inconvenient
01:16:21 <b_jonas> but a modern language with comefrom would just have convenient syntax for a conditional comefrom
01:16:22 <ais523> no, for a computed comefrom, the label it computes to doesn't have to exist
01:17:02 <ais523> that's a compile time check and you can't figure out what it would compute to at compile time
01:17:14 <ais523> (if it were a runtime check, it would be hard to define exactly when it should run…)
01:17:45 <ais523> the funny thing is that writing the conditional as an INTERCAL expression actually makes things easier, usually
01:18:00 <ais523> compared to writing it using a variable-sized resume
01:18:45 <ais523> because you can just do "jump if x is k" by mingling x and a constant, and then numbering the line to match the expected result
01:19:52 <ais523> meanwhile the variable-sized resume generally requires you to convert the two possibilities to 1 and 2, which is doable but somewhat verbose as it isn't a trivial pair of numbers to produce with bitwise operations
01:22:00 <ais523> (you can't resume 0 because that encounters error type 621)
01:22:54 <ais523> …although it crosses my mind that a consistent way to resume 0 might be to jump to the line label that had been most recently forgotten
01:22:57 <b_jonas> in an APL-like with come from, you'd use the compress verb to conditionally make the operand of the comefrom an empty array when the condition fails, and in the typical case when you compress a constant label, the interpreter would optimize this to only evaluate the condition at that one label
01:23:41 <ais523> I mostly think of APL as a functional rather than imperative language, which makes goto/comefrom hard to imagine in it
01:23:46 <b_jonas> ais523: can't you use FORGET with 0 or 1 instead?
01:23:57 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, but that doesn't actually jump anywhere
01:24:11 <b_jonas> sure, you follow it with a resume 1
01:24:13 <ais523> I guess you could just use a variable forget followed by a hardcoded resume 1
01:24:50 <ais523> now that you mention it, I'm surprised that that isn't done more often
01:26:11 <b_jonas> it's not done because next is too easy and is only there for historical reasons, real intercal programmers use only comefrom/nextfrom with possibly the from or the label computed
01:26:48 <ais523> I genuinely find computed comefrom easier
01:27:08 <ais523> than the intercal-72 method
01:27:17 <ais523> (to write, at least – it is probably a little less readable, but it's close)
01:27:43 <ais523> the expressions are more readable but they have the "random global side effect" issue that most of the things in INTERCAL do
01:28:10 <ais523> C-INTERCAL also has computed create, which is underexplored I think
01:28:13 <ais523> it might be good for jump tables
01:29:33 <b_jonas> and there's also abstain/reinstate with a computed target
01:30:25 <b_jonas> are those allowed to abstain/reinstate a nonexistent label?
01:31:02 <ais523> I don't think C-INTERCAL allows you to compute the label of abstain/reinstate, but I'm not sure
01:31:31 <ais523> it allows you to compute the *quantity* of abstain, e.g. you can triple-abstain things so that they need to be reinstated three times
01:31:54 <ais523> (fun fact: this is the first time I stumbled across The Waterfall Model, but I didn't realise it at the time)
01:32:51 <b_jonas> I didn't know multiple abstain existed in the language
01:33:22 <ais523> I added it because I was interested in seeing if INTERCAL could be TC even without expressions
01:33:42 <esolangs> [[Error: not a statement]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163682 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+1199) Created page with "'''Error: not a statement''' is a restricted subset of Java by [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]], which only allows expressions statements that would no
01:33:48 <ais523> and it seemed like the same sort of thing as computed forget
01:34:12 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163683&oldid=161377 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+99)
01:35:08 <b_jonas> I mean it probably is, because there's stash/retreive to conveniently handle a stack of a finite alphabet
01:35:48 <ais523> but what I ended up with was almost literally The Waterfall Model with different syntax (the only difference is that TWM has undefined behaviour on simultaneous zeroing whereas this has defined behaviour, and I hadn't realised at the time that usual practice would be to keep the abstain counts nonzero almost all the time)
01:36:23 <ais523> I don't think stash/retrieve are useful without expressions, because you have no way to set or read the values you're stashing and retrieving
01:36:46 <b_jonas> can you start with a statement multiple abstained, with something like `do not not not not not`?
01:37:01 <ais523> no, although that's an interesting idea for an extension
01:37:18 <ais523> normally a double negative in English negates the negative rather than intensifying it
01:37:32 <ais523> so you would need to write the not in a language where double negation is stronger negation rather than negated negation
01:37:35 <b_jonas> ais523: you can read the values as a forget or resume count, or by using it as an array index
01:38:22 <ais523> array indexing is an expression
01:38:28 <ais523> …as are forget and resume counts
01:38:29 <b_jonas> oh, you ban that too, right
01:38:45 <ais523> I guess I allowed the constant #1 in ABSTAIN #1 FROM
01:38:53 <b_jonas> I assumed you only banned the mingle and select and the prefix bitwise operators
01:38:54 <ais523> so maybe bare variables should be allowed too
01:39:51 <b_jonas> syntax shouldn't be anything like `do not not` because that would be incompatible with existing syntax in a way that would affect a lot of... uh... production code or something, real world programs
01:40:28 <ais523> I think it's currently a syntax error
01:40:38 <ais523> (which, admittedly, could exist in current production programs)
01:42:38 <b_jonas> oh! so maybe it wouldn't break many production programs
01:43:07 <b_jonas> they'd result in different abstain state in some lines, but only in lines that the program wouldn't try to execute
01:43:41 <ais523> well it's possible that the syntax errors would be being executed
01:44:02 <ais523> things like DO REINSTATE COMMENTS DO NOT NOT FOO would act differently
01:44:31 <ais523> …although DO REINSTATE COMMENTS is such a dubious construct I'm not even sure I've remember the syntax for it correctly
01:44:48 <b_jonas> so in this multiple abstain/reinstate extension, is the abstain count capped to zero or more so if you reinstate more times than a statement is abstained then it's clamped to zero abstains?
01:45:31 <ais523> it's clamped from below at 0 and can go "arbitrarily high" although C-INTERCAL doesn't actually use a bignum type
01:45:49 <ais523> also, only multiple abstain is supported, you have to reinstate 1 at a time
01:46:36 <ais523> if it starts making too much sense, you don't have INTERCAL any more :-D
01:47:27 <esolangs> [[GERMAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163684&oldid=110908 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2309) Introduced an examples section comprehending three incipial members, added a hyperlink to my implementation on GitHub, and supplemented the Implemented page category tag.
01:47:51 <b_jonas> yeah, but sometimes I'm thinking of which of these features could be lifted to a (likely esoteric in the broad sense) language that very much isn't intercal
01:48:39 <b_jonas> I don't really want to program in intercal, but it can be useful to know ideas added into it in all the extensions
01:48:56 <ais523> in that case you have all four of goto/comefrom/next/nextfrom, computed line labels everywhere, and full ability to compute abstain/reinstate amounts in addition to resume/forget amounts
01:49:47 <ais523> also if the language isn't being intentionally perverse, it should probably make resume 0 a no-op, which is the behaviour that would actually be useful
01:51:08 <ais523> ("resume" was presumably intentionally named so that resume 0 wouldn't make sense and thus it could be arbitrarily rejected)
01:51:48 <ais523> hmm, back when PHP implemented INTERCAL's resume (as "break"), I wonder whether break 0 was an error or a no-op
01:51:50 <b_jonas> possibly repeated line labels such that it's an error to go to a line label that appears multiple times but you can abstain/reinstate all statements with a certain label at the same time
01:52:16 <ais523> I think it got removed when someone pointed out that it's almost never a good idea to use a computed expression as the number of levels to break
01:52:22 <ais523> but it used to be possible
01:52:41 <ais523> b_jonas: oh yes, repeated labels would make sense
01:52:50 <ais523> but a goto should just go to all of them, creating multiple threads
01:52:57 <ais523> (that's what multiple come froms do)
01:54:24 <b_jonas> this is the esoteric syntax; in sane syntax if the label is repeated then when you refer to it you have to specify if you want to refer to the previous line or the next line with that label, so that you can use short label names locally
01:54:55 <ais523> oh right, the 1b 1f thing from gas
01:55:09 <ais523> I actually really like that method of doing things – it doesn't nest well but it otherwise composes well
01:55:16 <b_jonas> but that makes more sense if you can't use numeric expressions as computed labels
01:55:50 <ais523> maybe negative numbers jump backwards and positive numbers jump forwards?
01:58:01 <b_jonas> I'm currently thinking that the columns serve as variable names esoteric language (which I'm naming "Enchain") will probably have gotos as one of its main control structure, in a somewhat similar way than the python goto extension that I had been thinking about.
02:00:22 <b_jonas> how this would work is that there's a builtin syntax to make a label, which sets a variable to that label, but that assignment is executed at the start of the innermost surrounding function, not where the label builtin is written in the program, and there are other builtins that jump or conditionally jump if an integer operand is zero or nonzero
02:00:59 <b_jonas> with maybe even an on-goto that takes any number of label operands and an index into them
02:02:04 <b_jonas> but this wouldn't be the only control structure, because I absolutely want to have user-defined functions with multiple parameters and multiple return values,
02:02:34 <ais523> ooh, so Zig has a command "defer" which, when encountered, runs the content of its block at the end of the scope – this feels like a mirror of it, it runs the command at the beginning of the scope
02:02:37 <b_jonas> and I may or may not have a simple conditional that adds a condition to either one statement, or a condition to decide between two adjacent statements, based on an integer
02:02:42 <ais523> although I'm not sure if there's a way to mirror the "when encountered" part
02:03:28 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't really think of it like that
02:04:06 <b_jonas> because in the common case you'll never reassign that variable, it just behaves as a constant label
02:04:18 <b_jonas> though you are allowed to reassign it, in which case yes, the assignment is executed at the start
02:05:51 <b_jonas> but in the common case, python already has syntactic effects that act from the start of the function: an equals sign assignment marks a variable as lexically local to the function, and it's lexically local even syntactically earlier than where that assignment is
02:06:48 <b_jonas> and even in an ordinary language like C, a goto can refer to a label that hasn't executed yet
02:07:21 <b_jonas> Vttoth's W is actually unusual in this respect, because its labels are assigned only when they execute, which seriously limits how you can use them
02:07:40 <b_jonas> you can use W's labels to write a loop, but not easily to write a simple conditional
02:08:19 <b_jonas> that is deliberate design in W, but in most languages you don't want that
02:12:11 <b_jonas> also rust just lets you write `fn main() { println!("{}", M); const M: &str = "hello"; }` and it just works, you refer to M syntactically before you define it
02:12:29 <b_jonas> you don't even have to predeclare it like you'd have to predeclare a function or class in C++
02:15:46 <ais523> well, C setjmp/longjmp also can't be jumped to until they've been set
02:16:17 <zzo38> I had used something like the DO RESUME #2 of INTERCAL in a program written in BASIC once, since if you RETURN from a GOSUB then you can optionally specify what label to return to, instead of necessarily where it was called from. (There is also a RESUME command in BASIC, to return from an error handler, and also can optionally specify what label to return to.)
02:17:32 <b_jonas> yes, and even my idea for python goto and the current idea for Enchain would have some restrictions: you wouldn't be allowed to jump into a function.
02:18:24 <b_jonas> that said, there is something about the python goto why you can legitimately think of it as executing the assignment at the start of the function:
02:19:54 <b_jonas> when the assignment happens it behaves kind of like a scheme exit/cc in that it saves a reference to the current stack frame into that variable, so you can pass that variable into nested functions (even recursive entries to the same function) and you can goto that value to jump out from many scopes deep
02:20:17 <b_jonas> you can't jump into a function, but you can jump out of as many as you wish
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02:23:31 <b_jonas> I have some doubts about the python thing because I realized that there are a lot of details about how python works that I don't understand, and while they don't come up in normal practical programs, they do come up when I want to add features to python
02:23:54 <b_jonas> but I think the python goto thing is sound, and in the worst case it can be added to some other similar dynamic language
03:37:22 <esolangs> [[Error: not a statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163685&oldid=163682 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+11) /* Limitations */
03:49:21 <esolangs> [[SECRET PUZZLE!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163686&oldid=163680 * Mouldyair * (+126) /* SYNTAX */
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09:11:00 <esolangs> [[User:Hasin Israk Toaha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163691&oldid=163690 * Hasin Israk Toaha * (+124)
09:42:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Waso * New user account
09:54:07 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163692&oldid=163648 * RixTheTyrunt * (+18) /* Truth-machine */
09:54:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163693&oldid=163689 * Waso * (+435) Added me
09:55:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163694&oldid=163693 * Waso * (+2)
10:06:07 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163695&oldid=140168 * Waso * (+115) Added a Bitflip algorithm
10:10:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163696&oldid=163695 * Waso * (-2)
10:20:23 <esolangs> [[Unstoppable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163697&oldid=163671 * PkmnQ * (+12) I'll try proving soon
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11:21:35 <wib_jonas> suppose I give in advance a finite alphabet H with an involution R : H→H. consider the following class of objects: finite simple graphs, represented as finite simple symmetric digraphs, with each arc marked by a weight from H, with the restriction that if an arc (u,v) has weight h then its reverse (v,u) must have weight R(h). what would be a good
11:21:36 <wib_jonas> concise name for these objects? I can't just call them finite simple graphs with weighted edges, because the weight of an edge may have a direction.
11:23:52 <esolangs> [[Inputbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163698&oldid=148364 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-1800) Blanked the page
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11:28:16 <wib_jonas> or maybe, as a first simpler question before we tackle the whole thing, say I also give a finite simple graph in advance, and I consider the set of weightings (functions from the set of arcs to H) satisfying the above reversing condition. what would you call these weightings?
11:29:48 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163699&oldid=163674 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+0) /* brainfuck in Uppercase=Lowercase */
11:30:37 <esolangs> [[Uppercase=Lowercase]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163700&oldid=163675 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+0) /* brainfuck interpreter */
11:47:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * HaleyHalcyon * moved [[User:HaleyHalcyon/Sandbox/Sonjalang]] to [[Sonjalang]]: Feels complete enough to me
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13:02:05 <esolangs> [[Kak-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163703&oldid=141246 * Ractangle * (+327) /* Translation to Kak */ If this is valid, tell me in discord at mrglebsun or change the page category from Unimplemented to Implemented
13:04:27 <esolangs> [[Kak-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163704&oldid=163703 * Ractangle * (+13) /* Implementations */ did some modifacation to match the syntax of the language
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13:11:26 <esolangs> [[Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163705&oldid=140964 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+41)
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14:33:54 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1332.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
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14:35:39 <wib_jonas> yep, that's exactly what I wanted to say
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15:39:13 <esolangs> [[Diophantine equation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163706&oldid=154618 * Corbin * (+751) Combine some material from [[computable]] and normalize the presentation of equations. Lessons learned from Wilf et al, "A=B" https://www2.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html
15:40:12 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163707&oldid=163678 * Corbin * (-832) /* Via Diophantine equations */ Move the relevant intro to [[Diophantine equation]].
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15:53:57 <esolangs> [[Computable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163708&oldid=163707 * Corbin * (+29) /* Via Diophantine equations */ Fix tiny typos which invalidated the maths.
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16:36:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163709&oldid=163694 * LOLrReD * (+113) introduced LOLrReD
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18:08:33 <APic> Good Night *, happy Weekends!
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19:16:43 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163710 * TeraByte * (+325) Create page
19:18:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163711&oldid=163663 * TeraByte * (+47) Added TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU
19:24:24 <int-e> `slashlearn rush job//A Rush job (named after Stockton Rush) is completing a task while cutting corners at all cost.
19:24:30 <HackEso> Learned 'rush job': A Rush job (named after Stockton Rush) is completing a task while cutting corners at all cost.
19:32:24 <esolangs> [[Kak-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163712&oldid=163704 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Implementations */ i guess it's accurate
19:53:10 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163713&oldid=163710 * TeraByte * (+2691) Extended
19:56:32 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163714&oldid=163713 * TeraByte * (+437) Extended library and fixed grammar issue
20:15:51 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163715&oldid=163714 * TeraByte * (+2505) Finished documentation and added a hello world program. This is no longer a work in progress!
20:18:18 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163716&oldid=163715 * TeraByte * (+84) Altered hello world program to make it more readable
20:21:49 <esolangs> [[Vyxal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163717&oldid=86395 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Links */
20:22:18 <esolangs> [[Vyxal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163718&oldid=163717 * Ractangle * (+11) /* Links */
20:24:58 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163719&oldid=163716 * TeraByte * (+584) Added abbreviation and pronounciation
20:25:27 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163720&oldid=163719 * TeraByte * (-1) Splelnig is hrad
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21:01:42 <b_jonas> maybe I could say it's a symmetric digraph with antisymmetric arc weights
21:24:57 <int-e> heh you could say it's antisymmetric and justify that by looking at the adjacency matrix
21:26:18 <int-e> or maybe a pun on "undirected": antidirected graph
21:27:20 <int-e> (I'm assuming you're going to actually define the term first. I haven't checked whether that has an established meaning... it might.)
21:35:26 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163721&oldid=163641 * Placeholding * (-58)
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22:23:05 <yam04> I would like to post the version 6.0 of the hypercomplex numberr list
22:23:32 <yam04> https://forums.futura-sciences.com/attachments/mathematiques-superieur/511512d1755817142-structures-de-numerotation-inhabituelles-exotiques-6-0-hipernombre_6_0.pdf
22:24:30 <yam04> It 's a list of mathematical references, about different aspect of numbers
22:25:29 <yam04> if you want to recommend some mathematical references do it at https://forums.futura-sciences.com/mathematiques-superieur/959505-structures-de-numerotation-inhabituelles-exotiques-6-0-a.html
22:26:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Purplelimon * New user account
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22:34:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163722&oldid=163709 * Purplelimon * (+167)
22:45:24 <b_jonas> iovoid: no, if I wanted to go even shorter I'd just omit the "symmetric" and hope that "antisymmetric edge weights" implies that the digraph is symmetric.
22:52:59 <int-e> b_jonas: Ah but I wanted to drop the mention of edge weights :P
22:53:50 <int-e> (One could mix in "weighted" though to bring them back.)
23:05:58 <int-e> (I was proposing terms, rather than self-contained descriptions)
23:06:04 <b_jonas> if you drop the edge weight then these are just finite simple graphs, aka finite simple symmetric digraphs. I don't need a new name for that.
23:06:50 <b_jonas> (some people represent graphs differently than in terms of symmetric digraphs, but here the digraph representation is convenient.)
23:07:28 <int-e> Defintion: A weighted graph is called antidirectional if for each egde in the graph the opposite edge is also an edge with the opposite weight.
23:07:41 <int-e> Something like that.
23:08:52 <int-e> "antidirected" appears to have a meaning though which may make this confusing
23:08:59 <int-e> I'm spitballing here.
23:10:11 <b_jonas> I don't know what either of "antidirectional" or "antidirected" mean
23:11:08 <int-e> Of course. The idea was to define it.
23:11:14 <b_jonas> and I think I'm satisfied with "antisymmetric weight function"
23:11:24 <int-e> As I said, it was supposed to be a term, not a description.
23:11:49 <int-e> I also did not expect you to actually adopt it.
23:12:02 <int-e> It was just a thought.
23:12:49 <b_jonas> because antisymmetric is supposed to mean that the weight of the reverse arc is the negative of the weight of the arc, but I'm not sure R can be considered a negation when it has multiple fixed points
23:13:08 <int-e> Apparently "antidirected" is used (in some niche, not widely) for graphs that have no directed paths of length 2.
23:13:31 <b_jonas> but I don't think "hermitian" would work better either
23:13:48 <int-e> I feel that it's fine to generalize it to an involution.
23:13:59 <b_jonas> int-e: wouldn't no directed paths of length 2 just mean an oriented graph, at least among simple digraphs?
23:15:01 <int-e> it rules out A --> B --> C
23:15:15 <b_jonas> oh, you said path, not cycle!
23:15:24 <b_jonas> but then is it just a bipartite digraph?
23:15:46 <b_jonas> like, a digraph from which there's a homomorphism to the grpah with a single arc
23:15:48 <int-e> Yeah, I think so. Well, with some ambiguity for unconnected vertices.
23:16:11 <int-e> I'm just looking (very selectively) at https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.00769
23:16:27 <int-e> because it's one of the hits for "antidirected".
23:16:37 <int-e> It has no bearing on this discussion otherwise.
23:25:15 <esolangs> [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163723&oldid=163683 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-35)
23:26:06 <esolangs> [[Error: not a statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163724&oldid=163685 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-1) /* A basic program */
23:50:34 <esolangs> [[Error: not a statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163725&oldid=163724 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+257) /* So how do you do anything? */
23:59:04 <esolangs> [[Error: not a statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163726&oldid=163725 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+23) /* Limitations */
00:00:00 <esolangs> [[Error: not a statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163727&oldid=163726 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+31) /* Limitations */
00:09:37 <esolangs> [[Error: not a statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163728&oldid=163727 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-38)
00:10:04 <esolangs> [[Error: not a statement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163729&oldid=163728 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+992)
00:15:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iamnotanuser * New user account
00:27:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163730&oldid=163722 * Iamnotanuser * (+154)
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01:21:53 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163731&oldid=163721 * Placeholding * (+5)
02:16:40 <esolangs> [[Streamix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163732 * Iamnotanuser * (+1527) Created page with "Streamix is a [[brainfuck]] based esolang. All I/O goes only on streams. Also, all instructions are ASCII-lowercase. == General == === Memory === Memory in Streamix is array of 16-bit cells. It has infinite size, so interpreter should extend it sometimes. Current
02:29:01 <esolangs> [[Streamix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163733&oldid=163732 * Iamnotanuser * (+353)
02:40:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163734&oldid=163711 * Iamnotanuser * (+15)
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05:16:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163735&oldid=162792 * PrySigneToFry * (+173)
05:21:52 <esolangs> [[Pyline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163736&oldid=150008 * Jan jelo * (+53)
06:05:33 <esolangs> [[Pyline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163737&oldid=163736 * Jan jelo * (+16)
06:06:16 <esolangs> [[Category:Nope. derivatives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163738&oldid=161633 * PrySigneToFry * (+67)
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08:57:17 <esolangs> [[Tonnyi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163739 * Hasin Israk Toaha * (+6873) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Tonnyi |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:Hasin Israk Toaha]] |year=2025 |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |files=<code>.ton</code> }} '''Tonnyi''' is an esoteric programming language and educational interpreter cr
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10:34:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Cycwin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163740&oldid=162177 * PrySigneToFry * (+53) /* I subscribed you on B-station. */ new section
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13:32:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Cycwin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163741&oldid=163740 * Pifrited * (+100) /* I subscribed you on B-station. */
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13:53:25 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163742&oldid=161041 * Pifrited * (+540)
13:53:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Cycwin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163743&oldid=163741 * PrySigneToFry * (+38)
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15:30:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163744&oldid=163734 * Hasin Israk Toaha * (+13) /* T */
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17:25:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * I don't like programming * New user account
17:30:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163745&oldid=163730 * I don't like programming * (+190)
17:31:45 <korvo> "I support [person who immediately chafed at wiki rules]" is an interesting first message.
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17:40:38 <esolangs> [[User:I don't like programming]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163746 * I don't like programming * (+279) Created page with "Yes, i dont like programming. and I don't intend to love at all! i will create programming language... wait, but i dont like programming? i wont create programming language!!! but... i will create esolang. maybe. ....no!!! how t
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19:46:50 <int-e> It is a bit weird; no edits from either of them too.
19:57:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:I don't like programming]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163747 * Ractangle * (+236) Created page with "WHAT WAS THE POINT OF EVEN JOINING THIS SITE IF YOU DON'T LIKE PROGRAMING?~~~"
19:59:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163748&oldid=163744 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Non-alphabetic */ arranged in order
19:59:22 <int-e> Oh yeah, it might be a troll campaign, and Ractangle just took the bait. :P
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20:04:01 <ais523> it's obviously an alt but I can't immediately tell who it is
20:04:29 <ais523> or, perhaps, I can imagine someone getting annoyed enough at the wiki rules that they persuade a friend to join up to help them complain
20:13:24 <int-e> In the end it hardly matters. There's a chance that this will end up with disruptive edits that need cleanup but it's premature to worry about that :P
20:26:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:I don't like programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163749&oldid=163747 * Aadenboy * (+452)
20:31:57 <korvo> For me, it's more about the balance between inclusionism and anti-vandalism. I assume most new users just want to tag the local graffiti wall, and that's something we culturally accept as the price of inclusionism.
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20:48:29 <esolangs> [[Streamix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163750&oldid=163733 * Iamnotanuser * (-15)
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00:56:35 <korvo> Ugh, I think I need two sorts of pattern-matching syntax for two different sorts of free monoids, one packed and one unpacked. Like, strings vs lists.
00:57:21 <korvo> To match a list, I want something like [Start..., Patt1, 'literal', Patt2, End...] but for a string I guess I need something like Start... Patt1 'literal' Patt2 End...
00:58:17 <korvo> Juxtaposition is concatenation, yes, but it's only *one* sort of concatenation. I can either concat lists or strings that way, but not both. It seems like string concatenation is the better pick given the history of syntax?
01:36:11 <ais523> I'm not sure what you mean by packed vs. unpacked here
01:36:50 <ais523> is this the "search for a substring vs. search for an element" problem?
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02:35:51 <korvo> Yes, same problem. I'm currently pondering the concrete syntax; I think that my semantics already cover the search.
02:37:55 <korvo> Unrelated: yet another person realizes that FizzBuzz is an I/O problem https://github.com/nrposner/fizzcrate
02:38:02 <ais523> I think most languages which have solved this problem do it using a spread operator
02:38:31 <ais523> that causes a list-like thing to be treated by its surroundings as multiple elements rather than a single element
02:38:48 <ais523> but, there isn't agreement on what to call it (I've seen both * and ...)
02:39:27 <ais523> one nice thing about using ... for it is that it mirrors the use of ... in varargs, which is basically an anti-spread operator that bundles multiple arguments into a single list
02:40:32 <ais523> Perl solves the problem using its sigils, @x is always a list and spreads, $x is always a single element and doesn't spread
02:40:44 <korvo> I do have a flattening operator, but the semantics won't permit a generic spread. Instead I have to build a little list-of-lists and flatten multiple times. Might be something I could fix later with sugar.
02:40:47 <ais523> (although it needs two different list constructors)
02:41:03 <ais523> (to specify whether you're creating a spreading list or a single element)
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02:41:39 <ais523> I feel like having a spread operator as sugar is probably saner than the Perl method of doing things
02:42:19 <ais523> in which it's actually part of the language semantics/type system (actually it's more or less the only thing that's type-system-level in Perl…)
02:42:53 <korvo> Under the hood, Zaddy represents strings as atomic packed objects; there's a single reference to a hashmap with all of the stored code points. Lists are represented as if they were structures, but with a hack to allow lists of any length.
02:43:54 <korvo> So spreading into a list would be very messy because it would require some sort of nested-structure tree which is specific to lists. All other structures are torn apart into pieces, with each branch getting its own individual structure and storage.
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02:47:01 <korvo> Ugh, sorry. I have a rubber duck on my desk for this sort of thing.
02:48:55 <ais523> actually, the way Rust does this is quite neat: _ represents any single element, .. represents 0 or more elements, and it also has an operator for naming part of a match
02:49:08 <ais523> so if you want to match a substring, you just write .. and name it
02:49:26 <ais523> but I'm not sure that would really help in your situation
02:52:18 <esolangs> [[ABrainloller]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163751 * None1 * (+2263) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1}} It is [[Brainloller]] but uses only English letters. {|style="text-align:center;" !Color !RGB !Function !ABrainloller |- |style="background:#ff0000;"|red |(255,0,0) |<code>></code> |A |- |style="background:#800000;"|darkred |(128,0,0) |<code><<
02:52:41 <esolangs> [[ABrainloller]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163752&oldid=163751 * None1 * (+1) /* Hello, World */
02:54:16 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163753&oldid=163748 * None1 * (+19) /* A */
02:55:04 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163754&oldid=163432 * None1 * (+69)
02:59:11 <korvo> ais523: My current thought is that "unrestricted Zaddy", a not-yet-implemented variant, should be TC on the rules alone. So what do I actually need to use the rules for parsing, so that I don't need to carry a parsing formalism too? I worked out that doing CYK in Zaddy is feasible, given that I have some way to crack into the initial input string.
02:59:12 <esolangs> [[ABrainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163755&oldid=163752 * None1 * (+26)
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07:47:03 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163756&oldid=154728 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Implementation */
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08:21:39 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163757&oldid=163699 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+344) Added Echo Tag in CDILOI
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08:35:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mayx * New user account
08:39:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163758&oldid=163745 * Mayx * (+91)
08:40:26 <esolangs> [[User:Mayx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163759 * Mayx * (+16) Created page with "Hello, I am Mayx"
08:47:22 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163760&oldid=152063 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+2735) Added Echo Tag in CDILOI
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08:56:09 <esolangs> [[User:Mayx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163761&oldid=163759 * Mayx * (+28)
09:03:47 <esolangs> [[Capuirequiem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163762&oldid=83337 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+61)
09:04:04 <esolangs> [[Capuirequiem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163763&oldid=163762 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-1)
09:05:44 <esolangs> [[VERPNL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163764&oldid=163527 * PrySigneToFry * (+18)
09:07:27 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163765&oldid=163760 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-28) New link for brainfuck in Capuirequiem
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10:49:32 <esolangs> [[User:Mayx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163766&oldid=163761 * Mayx * (+89)
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13:01:47 <esolangs> [[PAC-PI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163767&oldid=157280 * LillyHStClaire * (+12) fix clipping of text
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14:03:45 <esolangs> [[Soallang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163768&oldid=144487 * HungKhanh0106 * (-67)
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14:37:09 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163769&oldid=163424 * Pifrited * (+381)
14:51:06 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163770&oldid=163769 * Pifrited * (+15)
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15:28:41 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163771 * Tommyaweosme * (+963) Created page with "Esochain is a wiki game where you list esolangs with the same first letter as the last letter of the one before it. You cannot use the same language twice on the same server. A server "dies" once there are no esolangs left starting with that letter. It can be
15:28:52 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163772&oldid=163771 * Tommyaweosme * (+2) /* Example */
16:54:24 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163773&oldid=163772 * Aadenboy * (+10) /* Server 1 */ self promo moment
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17:04:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Analog wizard * New user account
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19:25:25 <int-e> korvo: I was happy to see that one of yesterday's users actually created a page on the wiki so they were probably just venting their genuine frustration about the extra hoop to jump through. ( https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Iamnotanuser )
19:26:06 <korvo> int-e: That's great news.
19:26:29 <int-e> (Just another Brainfuck derivative... but meh, that's still the norm for a first esolang.)
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21:10:49 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163774&oldid=163720 * TeraByte * (+5)
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21:33:35 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163775&oldid=163774 * TeraByte * (+428) Added truth machine
21:34:13 <esolangs> [[TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163776&oldid=163775 * TeraByte * (+13) Added missing pre tag
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22:11:50 <esolangs> [[Stitchii]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163777 * GluonVelvet * (+3678) Created page with "Stitchii is a language by [[user:GluonVelvet]] whose design principle is to be made out of as many different parts as possible. Make every language component in different languages and combine them together to make a language that either disregards or takes advanta
22:12:44 <esolangs> [[Stitchii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163778&oldid=163777 * GluonVelvet * (+51)
23:13:49 <esolangs> [[Codossa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163779 * LEOMOK * (+1803) Created page with "'''Codossa''' is an esoteric programming language inspired by the linguistic experiment [http://wikipedia:Viossa Viossa]. It is an experiment for us to try to teach a programming language by writing programs with their expected inputs and outputs, without relying on natu
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01:03:39 <esolangs> [[Codossa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163780&oldid=163779 * PkmnQ * (+1) /* ^, v */
01:05:06 <esolangs> [[Codossa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163781&oldid=163780 * PkmnQ * (-1) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/163780|163780]] by [[Special:Contributions/PkmnQ|PkmnQ]] ([[User talk:PkmnQ|talk]])
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01:47:22 <esolangs> [[Codossa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163782&oldid=163781 * Aadenboy * (+14) fix link
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02:03:49 <esolangs> [[Stitchii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163783&oldid=163778 * GluonVelvet * (-2)
02:22:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AlephSquirrel * New user account
02:24:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163784&oldid=163758 * AlephSquirrel * (+257) /* Introductions */
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02:45:26 <esolangs> [[Merriment]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163785 * AlephSquirrel * (+4809) Create page
02:47:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163786&oldid=163753 * AlephSquirrel * (+16) Add Merriment
02:52:51 <esolangs> [[Merriment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163787&oldid=163785 * AlephSquirrel * (+17) Fix pipe character
03:59:40 <esolangs> [[Codossa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163788&oldid=163782 * PkmnQ * (+326) /* Commands */ hopefully these are clear enough
04:08:54 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163789&oldid=163773 * PkmnQ * (+53) I'm guessing you can add multiple esolangs as long as they are on different servers
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06:08:02 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163790&oldid=161761 * Hashibami * (+28)
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07:47:01 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163791&oldid=163604 * PkmnQ * (+27) /* S */
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11:45:43 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163792&oldid=163789 * PrySigneToFry * (+21)
11:53:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SzszszszszszszsZ * uploaded "[[File:.png]]": Huh
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14:16:36 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163794&oldid=163792 * Aadenboy * (+7) /* Server 5 */ lmao
14:19:46 <esolangs> [[User:AlephSquirrel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163795 * AlephSquirrel * (+248) Created page with "Creator of: * [[Merriment]], an extensible [[fungeoid]]. * SqueezeL, a [[Lisp]]-like golfing language. (abandoned, and doesn't have a page on the wiki currently) My old account is [[User:Caenbe]]. Go there if you want to see my older (worse) stuff."
14:21:30 <esolangs> [[User:AlephSquirrel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163796&oldid=163795 * AlephSquirrel * (+59)
15:15:59 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163797&oldid=163756 * Ractangle * (+25) /* Syntax */
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15:20:12 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163798&oldid=163797 * Ractangle * (-18) /* Syntax */
15:28:16 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163799&oldid=163798 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
15:46:25 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163800 * PkmnQ * (+2340) something
16:06:26 <esolangs> [[@!+-()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163801&oldid=139713 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1) /* See also */
16:33:16 <esolangs> [[@!+-()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163802&oldid=163801 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-1)
16:36:02 <esolangs> [[Right]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163803&oldid=119692 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+4) /* Execution */
16:36:17 <esolangs> [[Right]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163804&oldid=163803 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+4) /* Turn right */
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18:10:58 <esolangs> [[Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163805&oldid=74706 * Total Vacuum * (-31) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/74706|74706]] by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
18:38:33 <esolangs> [[User:Olus2000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163806&oldid=115608 * Olus2000 * (+86) Several years passed, I'm a new person now.
18:42:16 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163807&oldid=163799 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Truth-machine */
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21:25:51 <esolangs> [[Bobble]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163808&oldid=157349 * H33T33 * (-36)
21:29:52 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code/Topple 1.0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163809 * H33T33 * (+8498) Created page with "[[Topple/Source_Code|Back]] ''Some organization may be made in the near future, but it will not change how the current source code is intended to function. Other than that, this is a finished version.'' ''Disclaimer(s): The source code will pull t
21:29:57 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163810&oldid=163517 * H33T33 * (-8422) Replaced content with "[[Topple| Back to Topple]] [[Topple/Source_Code/Topple_1.0|Topple 1.0]]"
21:43:35 <esolangs> [[Oops i shared an infohazard.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163811 * Tommyaweosme * (+2485) Created page with "{{lowercase}}{{wrongtitle|title=oops i shared an infohazard. oops i shared an infohazard. oops i shared an infohazard. oops i shared an infohazard. (continues on forever)}} oops i shared an infohazard. is an esolang made where every program is
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21:55:42 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163812&oldid=163810 * H33T33 * (+587)
22:02:12 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163813&oldid=163812 * H33T33 * (-46)
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00:19:44 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163814&oldid=163794 * Tommyaweosme * (+12) added to server 2
00:28:47 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163815&oldid=163337 * Hotcrystal0 * (-337)
00:33:48 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163816&oldid=163815 * Hotcrystal0 * (+156)
00:38:15 <esolangs> [[Oops i shared an infohazard.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163817&oldid=163811 * Hotcrystal0 * (+52) Categories
00:47:03 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163818&oldid=163816 * Hotcrystal0 * (+372)
01:30:10 <esolangs> [[Unifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163819&oldid=163687 * SzszszszszszszsZ * (+18)
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01:36:08 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163820&oldid=163814 * PrySigneToFry * (+157)
01:43:28 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163821&oldid=163820 * Aadenboy * (-157) already implied? also those aren't esolangs
02:09:49 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163822&oldid=163821 * AlephSquirrel * (+13) Add to server 3
02:23:32 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163823&oldid=163822 * Aadenboy * (+46) add to servers 14
02:40:10 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163824&oldid=163823 * PrySigneToFry * (+73)
02:41:43 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163825&oldid=163824 * PrySigneToFry * (+46) Add a new server.
02:45:54 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163826&oldid=163825 * Aadenboy * (+58) /* Server 4 */ marking the death of this server
03:00:42 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163827&oldid=163826 * AlephSquirrel * (+47) Add to servers 5 and 6
03:08:17 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163828&oldid=163827 * Aadenboy * (+36) adding to server 5 (ridiculous)
03:14:56 <esolangs> [[Schaftenstein]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163829 * PrySigneToFry * (+2827) Created page with "Schaftenstein is a programming language designed by PSTF. The goal of this language is to be completely OOP and be Turing-complete. = Overview = As the author stated, this language is designed to be quite like Java but different(mix with Python). = Basic S
03:19:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163830&oldid=163786 * PrySigneToFry * (+20)
03:51:42 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163831&oldid=163828 * PkmnQ * (+190)
04:50:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Oops i shared an infohazard.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163832 * Corbin * (+176) Share a gentle fun memetic infohazard.
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07:50:29 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163834&oldid=163833 * Ractangle * (+521) nvm
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12:49:59 <esolangs> [[Stop writing your code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163845 * I don't like programming * (+751) Created page with "[[stop writing your code]] an esolang developed by [[User:I don't like programming]] where every character prints random string from [" Stop writing your code!", "Stop write code!", " Stop writing your fucking code"]. The idea behind the
12:52:01 <esolangs> [[Stop writing your code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163846&oldid=163845 * I don't like programming * (+92)
12:52:28 <esolangs> [[Stop writing your code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163847&oldid=163846 * I don't like programming * (+0) Categories
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15:57:00 <esolangs> [[User:X-540]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163861 * X-540 * (+601) Created page with "Hi, I'm X/O, also known as x_540 (or x-540 if I can't use an _), as you might have guessed based on the fact that this page exists, I like esolangs. I'm also lazy so yoy can expect me to take months or even years to add my esolangs to this wiki... I currently have two
16:11:22 <korvo> Hm. I should reword the bullshit I put at the top of [[Category:Output only]]. Deadfish isn't the worst example, but it's a little misleading; when considered as a free monoid, the "output" of a Deadfish program includes a ghost output which stores the current register. This means that it should really be [0-255]+, but also it's actually generated by postcomposition with the inclusion [0-255]* -> [0-255]+.
16:12:50 <korvo> ...Nope, got the arrow backwards. It's postcomposition with a truncation [0-255]+ → [0-255]* which removes the final element of each sequence. Gotta drop the ghost element.
16:27:15 <korvo> ...Deadfish isn't coherently defined? Well, that makes it a very bad example indeed! Is there a better output-only language to illustrate the point, or should I remove that section entirely?
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16:43:20 <esolangs> [[e]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163862 * WarzokERNST135 * (+254) Created page with "e is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]] which is named after its 3 flags: {{cd|}}, {{cd|e}}, and {{cd|}}. Here is a Hello World example in it: eee eeee ee ee"
16:44:30 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163863&oldid=163633 * WarzokERNST135 * (+16)
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16:58:25 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163865&oldid=162899 * Corbin * (+719) Basic complexity analysis.
17:00:55 <esolangs> [[Category:Output only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163866&oldid=163595 * Corbin * (-838) Remove (my) overly-simplistic attempt at attaching monoids to output-only languages.
17:10:19 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163867&oldid=163864 * Ractangle * (-41) /* Server 4 */ not anymore
17:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans/Weird Befunge Conditionals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163868&oldid=111764 * BoundedBeans * (+0) Corrected "Rhree" to "Three"
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18:16:00 <esolangs> [[Lete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163870&oldid=129359 * BoundedBeans * (+41) Converted command list to table and removed _ command
18:20:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163871 * Aadenboy * (+334) Created page with "== Server 4 == was [[e]] created for this? ~~~~"
18:23:23 <esolangs> [[Sugueziume]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163872&oldid=129928 * BoundedBeans * (+139) Convert original commands to wikitable
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20:44:49 <esolangs> [[Fusion Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163877&oldid=163265 * Ractangle * (-8) /* Implementations */ mini
20:46:29 <esolangs> [[Fusion Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163878&oldid=163877 * Ractangle * (+8) Rhor66r96t8r8r9otft
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22:01:43 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163880&oldid=163875 * Aadenboy * (+37) add to servers 2 (self-promo) and 7
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22:12:24 <ais523> korvo: I think you may misunderstand Deadfish – the range of the register isn't 0-255, it is the set of nonnegative integers that are not 256
22:12:44 <ais523> 0 to 255 inclusive are OK, so is 257 and upwards
22:13:40 <korvo> ais523: Yes. As such, I've edited [[Category:output only]] to entirely omit my aside on monoids. If there is a better language that serves as an example, I'd be happy to write that up.
22:14:17 <korvo> That said, please LMK if my recent edit to [[deadfish]] was wrong. I started from the assumption that the program which squares 17, listed in the prior section, was valid and that there wasn't a further ceiling or wraparound.
22:14:28 <ais523> on a separate topic: I have been wondering about whether you can mremap the stack on Linux (to a different address) while the stack is in use, as long as you change the stack pointer to match afterwards
22:14:38 <zzo38> Some implementations have other limits than that, such as 16-bits or 32-bits
22:14:55 <ais523> obviously you can't do this through any sort of library wrapper, as a library function wouldn't be able to return if you moved the stack out from underneath it
22:15:15 <ais523> but, maybe doing the system call directly with inline asm works?
22:15:47 <ais523> (you would need to make sure there were no pointers to the stack at the time, which probably means implementing your whole program in asm as compilers don't try to avoid doing that)
22:16:34 <ais523> the "theoretical standard for Deadfish" is normally considered to have no maximum limit on the integer
22:16:41 <korvo> Some compilation schemes basically don't use the stack pointer, but that doesn't mean that they don't have some stack usage from e.g. the C runtime, either.
22:16:51 <ais523> but as zzo38 says, individual implementations often just use native integer types rather than bignums
22:17:39 <ais523> the context is that I have been considering writing my own ABI, one of the rules (that was created for an entirely different reason) was that there could be no pointers to the %sp stack (there is a second stack you can have pointers to)
22:18:05 <ais523> and then I realised it would be possible to realloc the stack larger while the program was running, which would make a number of threading-related issues much easier
22:18:22 <ais523> but I wasn't sure if a system call would even be able to return if the stack had moved while it was running
22:18:38 <ais523> I think it probably would be? the syscall instruction doesn't use the stack
22:18:56 <ais523> but some system calls do, like vDSO system calls, so this may be a case in which the kernel is underspecified
22:19:59 <zzo38> Do you intend to work with multiple instruction sets? Some might not support that.
22:20:17 <ais523> in general, Linux not having a specification is annoying, e.g. several people noticed during the high performance FizzBuzz thing that the documentation of vmsplice(2) doesn't match its actual behaviour, but we have no way to tell which is wrong or whether that's even a meaningful thing to say
22:20:46 <zzo38> One thing I was thinking of before is if it can be made to support saving the state of the program and then to restore it later from disk (but excluding I/O).
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22:21:00 <ais523> zzo38: well an ABI is somewhat processor-specific – I want the general ABI design techniques to potentially generalise to other processors, but it's OK if not all of them can handle it, and the ABI itself of course wouldn't
22:21:35 <ais523> e.g. I was also planning to take advantage of having a large virtual address space, which you can't do on 32-bit processors or processors without MMUs
22:22:07 <b_jonas> ais523: if you mean mremap to replace the stack contents to a different accessible page then I don't see why you couldn't do it even without special precautions. if you call the mremap system call directly it shouldn't use your stack. if instead you want to replace the stack with a page that isn't accessible then you have to make sure the kernel doesn't try to invoke signal handlers on that stack while
22:22:13 <b_jonas> it's inaccessible: either sigaltstack, or block every signal that would invoke a handler
22:22:26 <ais523> oh yes, this definitely needs sigaltstack
22:22:28 <b_jonas> on x86_64 at least; other architectures could differ
22:25:46 <b_jonas> ais523: try to look in programs like DOSEMU or Wine that set up for running 16-bit protected mode programs (typically Win16) natively in an x86_32 linux host executable, maybe they have to do similar crazy magic
22:26:03 <ais523> I thought this ABI would need sigaltstack just generally, but thinking about it, it actually doesn't – receiving a signal doesn't create new pointers to the stack
22:26:33 <zzo38> Glulx has the stack in a separate address space (which is not fully accessible), but there has been a C compiler written to target it. (I think it is not only Glulx that does this, though)
22:26:46 <ais523> b_jonas: I think they normally just map the bottom of virtual memory to simulate real mode
22:26:57 <zzo38> (Glulx does not have signals though)
22:27:01 <ais523> that's the reason why the kernel lets you configure the setting that disables mapping over NULL
22:27:24 <ais523> although, hmm, protected mode
22:27:33 <ais523> the issue there would be segment registers
22:28:22 <ais523> zzo38: I think "stack in a separate address space" is correct, but x86-64 doesn't support it, so the best I can do is put it somewhere random and prevent any pointers ever being taken to it
22:28:22 <b_jonas> ais523: that's for real mode, sure, but can't some of them run Win16 programs in protected mode with the code segment set to 16-bit too like windows 3.11 in 386 enchanced mode does? surely at least some later Win16 programs depend on that, don't they?
22:28:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163881&oldid=163873 * PkmnQ * (+351)
22:28:55 <b_jonas> ais523: this is specifically for an x86_32 host, rare these days but the source code supporting it should still exist
22:29:19 <ais523> IIRC on x86_32, you need the kernel's help to set legal values for segment registers
22:29:26 <b_jonas> at least the linux program that invokes it is x86_32, not necessarily the kernel
22:29:34 <ais523> like, the kernel creates an array of possible legal segments, and you put one of those into the segment register in userspace
22:30:35 <b_jonas> I don't know, I never tried this kind of magic. The most I did was to map a new writable and executable segment, write a function into it, then call it.
22:30:37 <ais523> ah, found it: modify_ldt(2)
22:31:54 <ais523> it used to be used for thread-local storage, but Linux added a special case for that after a while
22:32:32 <b_jonas> ais523: good, so somebody probably uses that system call, and you can probably find such code
22:32:39 <ais523> (on x86, TLS is normally done via %gs; on x86_64, it's done via %fs, using WRFSBASE if the processor has it or help from the kernel on old x86_64 processors)
22:34:06 <ais523> and the reason they changed from %gs to %fs is that there's a SWAPGS instruction but not a SWAPFS instruction, which as far as I can tell doesn't actually matter semantically, but perhaps there's a performance difference as a consequence
22:35:24 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't it because the x86_64 cpu only allows FS to point to a nonzero address in true 64-bit mode, so they had to use FS, whereas the x86_32 convention existed before x86_64 was invented?
22:36:05 <ais523> b_jonas: FS and GS are both allowed to have a nonzero base
22:36:33 <ais523> the only segmentation details you can change on x86-64 are base of FS and GS, and bitness of CS
22:38:45 <ais523> I did have an interesting idea for an x86-series processor feature recently: the ability to link specific memory map entries to segment registers, so that they could only be accessed by instructions prefixed (explicitly or implicitly) with that prefix
22:39:26 <b_jonas> also, I don't think it will help you with such deep magic, but http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libcoro.html has like five different implementation on how to set up new stacks and switch between stacks on linux-like systems (including possibly other unixes)
22:40:34 <ais523> this would let you simulate the segment-limit feature of 32-bit x86, which I think is helpful as an assertion (security / catching accidental out-of-bounds accesses)
22:43:10 <b_jonas> sorry? how would you simulate the segment limit?
22:44:57 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163882&oldid=163880 * Tommyaweosme * (+68) cutting a loophole and reglueing the rules back together
22:47:43 <b_jonas> the x86_64 instruction WRPKRU and its linux interface pkeys(7) might be able to do something like that, but the code would be less dense than just segment prefixes
22:48:07 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163883&oldid=163882 * Tommyaweosme * (+162)
22:50:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163884&oldid=163881 * Tommyaweosme * (+123)
22:51:18 <ais523> b_jonas: by tagging memory outside of the segment limit so that it couldn't be accessed by the segment's prefix
22:51:46 <ais523> this was inspired by pkeys, but I think it's an improvemet
22:52:34 <ais523> sudden realisation: people use the xor operator in things like W^X and "shared xor mutable", but it is the wrong operator: this isn't an xor but a nand, because it is OK to have things that are neither writable nor executable
22:52:50 <zzo38> I noticed that too
22:53:29 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163885&oldid=163883 * Tommyaweosme * (+167)
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23:15:46 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163886&oldid=163885 * Aadenboy * (+16) add to revres 2 (self-promo)
23:22:17 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163887&oldid=163886 * Hotcrystal0 * (+21)
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00:27:34 <esolangs> [[Merriment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163890&oldid=163787 * AlephSquirrel * (+413) Add v0.2 stuff
00:28:37 <ais523> <C99 rationale, as quoted by Wikipedia in the article about NaN> The result of pow(−2, ∞) is +∞, because all large positive floating-point values are even integers.
00:36:28 <korvo> Deeply inspirational. I feel much better about my own crimes against IEEE 754 now.
00:36:55 <ais523> I feel like the programming community still hasn't decided on what floats actually are – are they approximations of real numbers, or are they a number system that is only able to represent a finite set of numbers that is denser near the origin?
00:37:51 <ais523> or are they one used to represent the other?
00:38:23 <korvo> Or are they a data structure best understood as a disjoint union of rows of bits? Is the true nature of floats NaN smuggling, fast inverse sqrt and fast log2, mantissa twiddling, etc?
00:38:27 <ais523> most operations on floats individually make sense in at least one of the three views, but the ways in which they're typically combined don't really, and the distinction isn't normally clarified well
00:38:57 <ais523> oh right, the integer/float reinterpret thing is also relevant sometimes
00:39:36 <ais523> although less so than it used to be, e.g. fast inverse sqrt and integer log2 are both processor builtins on recent x86-64 and probably also on its competitors
00:41:13 <ais523> ooh, this conversation reminds me of an idea I had recently – when reference counting, you want to avoid reference count overflows as that can lead to memory unsoundness, which is normally implemented by saturating the reference count, but saturating integer arithmetic is a bit more verbose in asm than I'd like it to be
00:41:30 <ais523> especially as the operation you want here is "when trying to increment or decrement INT_MAX, it stays as INT_MAX"
00:41:56 <ais523> but! there is an operation that does automatically saturate in exactly that way: doubling and halving floats, which saturates at infinity
00:42:21 <ais523> so it has made me wonder whether storing reference counts as floats might actually make sense
00:42:51 <korvo> Yeah! There *are* other data structures with this property, particularly Gosper-style continued logarithms, but they're pretty rare.
00:43:20 <ais523> (unfortunately, unless you're using a DAZ+FTZ FPU configuration, which would be nonstandard and break the semantics of many programs, you wouldn't be able to make use of the underflow-to-zero behaviour without a huge performance penalty)
00:43:30 <korvo> And we could argue that a continued logarithm is just a really bad way of writing a float which is mostly exponent and has maybe one bit of mantissa.
00:49:12 <ais523> the main reason I don't want to write my reference counting in terms of floats is that all the mantissa bits would be wasted, unless I can figure out something to store in them that's OK to lose when the reference count saturates
00:50:22 <ais523> I guess converting an 8-bit reference count to a float mantissa, doubling it, and converting back might still be faster than the branchy implementation of saturating arithmetic, but it probably isn't
00:50:44 <korvo> The mantissa *is* a fairly nice binary fraction in [0, 1]. But yeah, it's kind of delicate.
00:51:42 <ais523> well, you can store a pointer there – sort-of like NaN-boxing but with a valid exponent
00:51:53 <ais523> but the pointer would disappear when the refcount saturated
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00:53:56 <ais523> ooh – I just realised that reference count saturation is the way you implement it in kernels and similar high-availability software that can't fail-fast
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00:54:28 <ais523> but for regular usermode software, you normally want reference count saturation to give you a crash instead; I just thought that that would be slower because you would have to test for the saturation case
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00:55:59 <ais523> however: if you are reference-counting a pointer (which admittedly isn't the common case because normally the reference count is pointed to, not on the pointer), a reference overflow would set the float to infinity, which has a zero mantissa, so it would null out the pointer
00:56:24 <korvo> Ah, that's fun. The unified theory of GC says that there should be a mirrored concept, and I think it's the phenomenon of an object which lives forever because it's been accidentally promoted to eden/paradise (in a generational setup) or that just got leaked.
00:57:10 <korvo> Clever. Maybe too clever?
00:57:26 <ais523> so now I'm trying to figure out a way to get that null dereference to give you the fail-fast behaviour on reference count overflow
00:57:31 <korvo> It sounds portable to IEEE 754, though.
00:57:35 <ais523> I guess the obvious thing to put there would be a vtable
00:58:17 <ais523> oh, this is something that 99% of programmers would consider too clever, but from my point of view, as long as it's sound and you can prove it works, and it's more efficient, why not use it?
00:58:25 <zzo38> Store the destruction function in the fraction bits if it bits, but I do not expect it to fit.
00:59:07 <ais523> the code address of it would fit, at least if using double-precision floats
00:59:36 <ais523> you have 53 bits, most processors don't have a virtual address space that big, even on processors that do you could just ensure you loaded the program at a low enough address
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01:00:35 <zzo38> If you are programming it in a way that can guarantee that it is working like that, then yes, but if you are trying to write a portable program in C then it will not work, unless it points to VM code or something like that instead, in which case maybe it will work.
01:01:42 <ais523> right – although this is an interesting portability problem because processors that were even physically capable of loading code at addresses that high only started to be produced in the last few of years
01:01:56 <ais523> and even the ones that are have no reason to do so
01:02:32 <ais523> but, the C standards maintainers would obviously be reluctant to say "code and static data is never loaded at an address that doesn't fit within the range of a 52-bit signed integer" :-D
01:02:32 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163891&oldid=163876 * Tommyaweosme * (+11)
01:03:35 <ais523> I guess it'd break on platforms like CHERI where pointers are authenticated and 128 bits wide
01:05:54 <ais523> (it almost works even on CHERI by treating the data half of the pointer as a float and the auth data as an integer, but CHERI doesn't support the operation of "offset a pointer a very long distance out of bounds and then back to its original location" which is what the float-boxing would effectively do to it)
01:09:52 <ais523> ooh! I figured out how to store a pointer in the mantissa, even on saturation – you just arrange things so that the pointer is accessed after the reference count update, while the old value is still in a register, and handle the segfault!
01:10:40 <ais523> reference count saturation should be a very rare event, after all
01:11:39 <ais523> I hate so much that our current programming abstractions are bad at implementing this sort of thing – the problem is that this requires a change at the lower levels of abstraction, but it's still nicely contained because the higher levels don't break, so you can reason about it in isolation
01:12:04 <ais523> but in our current models, the higher levels of abstraction generally all regard the lower levels as either fixed, or entirely controlled by higher levels
01:12:45 <ais523> I think this is why I care about creating my own ABI, it lets me control the low-level details in a way that doesn't break existing higher-level programs (which are generally designed to be portable to multiple ABIs)
01:13:25 <zzo38> There are other things I had wanted to do that the levels of abstraction in C (and in LLVM, and possibly also the .o file format) make it difficult to do in a reasonably portable way, since otherwise you would have to write a non-portable code
01:13:41 <zzo38> So, maybe it will help? I don't know.
01:13:53 <ais523> I think C's notion of non-portable code is the wrong one
01:14:12 <ais523> if I want to write something non-portable I want to do it at the lower levels of abstraction without breaking the higher levels, and C has that backwards
01:16:06 <ais523> like, instead of writing C code that sees through the abstraction, I would want instead to write low-level code in a lower-level language like asm, that provides an extra feature to the higher-level language that it can then make use of
01:16:31 <ais523> and those features often appear in the form of guarantees rather than the form of functions
01:16:57 <ais523> e.g. rules on what pointers look like when converted to integers
01:17:39 <ais523> a C implementation can add such rules without breaking the standard – and I think a C implementation would be more useful if it let you customize that sort of thing
01:19:15 <ais523> the thing about this sort of guarantee is that it's really easy to break by accident, e.g. Rust has functions like f32::from_bits and f64::from_bits and they are the only thing preventing you adding a low-level guarantee like "all NaNs are quiet"
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01:21:37 <korvo> ...Drat, I walked away. Sorry, based; I *have* worked with Sea of Nodes and have opinions.
01:22:46 * ais523 suddenly starts wondering why code/function pointers are 64 bits wide – is it just to give more space for ASLR?
01:22:59 <ais523> like, using more than 4GiB of data, I get it, sometimes that's useful
01:23:04 <ais523> but using more than 4GiB of code?
01:24:02 <esolangs> [[BCSD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163892 * Tommyaweosme * (+1075) Created page with "BCSD, or Bit Counts Spiraling Down, is an [[esolang]] created by [[User:Tommyaweosme]]. == Commands == 00xx - do nothing 01xx - flip xx and print it 10xx - print xx without flipping 11xxx - print the first xxx bits Every line may show the next evolution; only the
01:24:51 <zzo38> Yes, I think that could be useful, but I had also wanted to do such things as: making the addresses of a set of global variables defined in one file to overlap with the addresses of a set of global variables defined in a different file, and making a boolean or other value modified only during initialization of the program to affect a condition or something else in another part of the program.
01:26:06 <zzo38> And, also declaring variables that are not mapped and are allowed to overlap other memory, in case you only care that the addresses are unique (and possibly how much gap after one address before the next one).
01:26:56 <ais523> likewise it is probably OK to force vtables to the low 4GiB – that both saves you 4 bytes on every object that uses one (in some languages, every object), and prevents an attacker tricking the code into interpreting arbitrary attacker-controlled data as vtables unless they can allocate it in the low 4GiB somehow
01:39:22 <esolangs> [[P2WFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163893 * Tommyaweosme * (+973) Created page with "P2wFuck is a [[PaidFuck]] derivative, which is slightly more serious than [[PaidFuck]] itself. == Commands == Running a specific program for the first time costs $2.99 on top of the command charges, but every subsequent time afterwards, the run fee is $0.49. > $0.0
01:55:44 <ais523> `as-encoding .byte 67; mov %rcx, (%rdx)
01:55:47 <HackEso> 43: rex.XB \ 48 89 0a: mov %rcx,(%rdx)
01:56:03 <ais523> `as-encoding .byte 0x67; mov %rcx, (%rdx)
01:56:05 <HackEso> 67 48 89 0a: mov %rcx,(%edx)
01:56:32 <ais523> aww, for a moment I thought this was gadget-proof, but a gadget could just start reading halfway through the instruction to skip the 0x67 prefix
01:56:42 <ais523> well, one quarter of a way through
01:57:32 <ais523> I guess we could use a dedicated register that only ever stores 32-bit values…
01:58:00 <ais523> "asm intended to be safe even in the presence of exploits" is an esolang, and a fairly interesting one at that
02:06:26 <zzo38> Then, hopefully it can be written in esolang wiki
02:11:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kaascevich * New user account
02:14:21 <ais523> I would need to work out what the specification is, which is likely to be pretty difficult
02:17:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163894&oldid=163784 * Kaascevich * (+149) /* Introductions */
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02:23:15 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163895&oldid=161359 * Kaascevich * (+188) /* Optimizing implementations */
02:24:36 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163896&oldid=163895 * Kaascevich * (+219) /* Normal implementations */
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02:33:20 <esolangs> [[Nuwora]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163897 * GluonVelvet * (+2921) Created page with "Nuwora is a language made by [[user:GluonVelvet]] to be as difficult as possible to program in. It uses reverse imperative processing to read code. What this means is it reads code from the bottom to the top and reads all lines from finish to start including all the
02:37:07 <esolangs> [[Nuwora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163898&oldid=163897 * GluonVelvet * (+2) /* Cat Program */
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04:12:39 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163899&oldid=163836 * PkmnQ * (+2814)
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04:56:24 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, why doubling and halving the floats, instead of adding and subtracting one to a float, so that only the *exponent* bits are wasted rather than the significand bits
05:04:31 <b_jonas> that said, I don't see why I'd want to use saturating reference counts for anything
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05:07:44 <strerror> It sounded like ais523 was going to put the address in the mantissa bits
05:18:12 <strerror> I don't know if amd64 has a fast way to halve and double floats, though, and using fmul64 for this seems inefficient
05:19:47 <strerror> ais523: ARMv8.3+ uses those extra pointer bits for a checksum: https://www.qualcomm.com/content/dam/qcomm-martech/dm-assets/documents/pointer-auth-v7.pdf
05:30:58 <zzo38> A program I wrote in MMIX once, used integer arithmetic to make half of a floating point number (which will not work in some circumstances)
05:38:58 <b_jonas> "saturating integer arithmetic is a bit more verbose in asm than I'd like it to be" => I think this is false on x86_64.
05:43:23 <b_jonas> say you store your reference count as an unsigned integer, 8 or 16 or 32 or 64 bits wide at your choice, it's 0 when there's no references and some large constant unsigned integer, call it MAXREFCNT, when there's so many references that you no longer want to increment or decrement the counter. if you have your reference count in a memory byte/word/dword/qword called refcnt addressible directly with an
05:43:29 <b_jonas> instruction, then it takes two simple integer instructions to do an increment or decrement by one that doesn't change numbers above MAXREFCNT: with intel syntax first `cmp refcnt, MAXREFCNT` so the carry bit is true iff the refcnt is finite, then `adc refcnt, 0` to increment a finite reference count or `sbb refcnt, 0` to decrement a finite refcount, and in the latter case the zero flag indicates if the
05:44:11 <b_jonas> I don't think you can hope for anything better than this to increment or decrement with a floating-point value in memory, and with floating-point you'll need extra instructions to figure out when the last reference was decremented off the counter, it won't just appear in a flag for free.
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06:56:20 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163901&oldid=163813 * H33T33 * (+43)
06:58:42 <esolangs> [[Topple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163902&oldid=160791 * H33T33 * (-114)
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07:27:32 <wib_jonas> and I think even if you want to store the reference count in just a subfield of a 4 or 8 byte value, it's still unlikely that floating-point ops help. unless of course you're going for pure esotericness points, like sacrificing all performance by setting a floating point underflow handler that's called whenever you decrement the reference count to
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07:42:31 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin/maIsTc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163903&oldid=160185 * Cycwin * (+440)
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08:02:37 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163904&oldid=163887 * Ractangle * (+5)
08:57:03 <wib_jonas> new video by the 8-bit guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Jtv8hvau4 about the TI-99/4a early home microcomputer. starts with the claim "Of all of the computers I’ve covered this machine has to be the most bizarre architecture". do you suppose that will mean any esoteric interest?
08:59:11 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163905&oldid=163899 * PkmnQ * (-5731) Replaced content with "Major overhaul in progress."
09:34:35 <esolangs> [[Permufuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163906 * Pro465 * (+1426) Created page with "{{WIP}} {{stub}} Permufuck, an esolang created by [[User:Pro465]] in [[:Category:2025|2025]], is a much harder variant of [[brainfuck]]. Each Permufuck program corresponds noninjectively to a brainfuck program, which is given by a pseudorandom permutation of the Permu
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11:23:28 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163907&oldid=163904 * C0ffee * (+107)
11:25:10 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163908&oldid=163907 * C0ffee * (+2)
11:26:10 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163909&oldid=163908 * C0ffee * (+31)
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12:00:41 <esolangs> [[Permufuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163910&oldid=163906 * Pro465 * (+8)
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12:13:50 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163911&oldid=163909 * Tommyaweosme * (+26)
12:14:21 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163912&oldid=163911 * Tommyaweosme * (+2)
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12:19:29 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163913&oldid=163912 * PrySigneToFry * (+181)
12:20:51 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163914&oldid=163913 * PrySigneToFry * (+44)
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12:45:29 <esolangs> [[Permufuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163915&oldid=163910 * Pro465 * (+614) add python program
12:49:42 <esolangs> [[Permufuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163916&oldid=163915 * Pro465 * (+150) /* Description */ clarify on when the program is considered valid
13:06:27 <esolangs> [[Permufuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163917&oldid=163916 * Pro465 * (-13) /* Conversion program (Python) */
13:15:56 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163918&oldid=163914 * Ractangle * (+54)
14:00:05 <esolangs> [[Unpseudorandom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163919&oldid=123063 * Krolkrol * (-40)
14:11:55 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163920&oldid=163918 * AlephSquirrel * (+67) Add to servers 2 and 5
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14:31:23 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163921&oldid=163920 * Aadenboy * (+52) add to server 2
14:32:55 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163922&oldid=163921 * Aadenboy * (+37) /* Server 2 */ fix link and add note
14:35:15 <wib_jonas> When did Windows's window manager switch away from its traditional behavior that when you switch from a maximized window to another window then the former gets minimized? Was it right away between Win16 and Windows 95, or some time later?
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14:56:55 <wib_jonas> A BASIC variant where the command to delete (program) files from the casette is spelled DELETE rather than KILL? what kind of censorship is this?
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15:52:50 <esolangs> [[User:Pro465]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163923&oldid=156107 * Pro465 * (+18) /* Esolangs created */ add permufuck
15:55:12 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163924&oldid=163830 * Pro465 * (+16) /* P */ add Permufuck
15:57:53 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163925&oldid=163922 * Aadenboy * (+9) /* revreS 2 */ fix server
16:03:34 <esolangs> [[Permufuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163926&oldid=163917 * Pro465 * (+151) add cat program
16:07:31 <int-e> does esolangs have colors mised into the [[Page]] things?
16:07:42 <int-e> I guess I should check logs
16:07:49 <korvo> Yes, they're quite colorful.
16:08:13 <int-e> so that's why that ignore isn't working, meh
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16:09:43 <int-e> (The Esochain thing annoys me.)
16:11:12 <korvo> I'd ask for the power to do something about it, but we all know that I should never be given administrative powers.
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16:18:27 <ais523> <b_jonas> ais523: wait, why doubling and halving the floats, instead of adding and subtracting one to a float, so that only the *exponent* bits are wasted rather than the significand bits ← because adding 1 to a float repeatedly doesn't overflow to infinity
16:19:03 <ais523> it could work if you used a round-upwards rounding mode, but setting that is slow on most processors (I think AVX-512 adds instructions to do it efficiently? although I can't remember whether they work on scalars)
16:24:26 <ais523> I do like your idea of using the carry flag, but I think it might still be verbose than you're expecting because the reference count isn't normally in a register already
16:25:17 <ais523> `as-encoding add $1, %eax
16:25:31 <ais523> `as-encoding add $1, 0x4(%eax)
16:25:33 <HackEso> 67 83 40 04 01: addl $0x1,0x4(%eax)
16:26:03 <esolangs> [[Permufuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163927&oldid=163926 * Pro465 * (+9) make the text less janky
16:26:27 <ais523> `as-encoding cmp $7ffffffe, 0x4(%eax)
16:26:29 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: junk `fffffe' after expression \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
16:26:35 <ais523> `as-encoding cmp $0x7ffffffe, 0x4(%eax)
16:26:36 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
16:26:48 <ais523> `as-encoding cmpl $0x7ffffffe, 0x4(%eax)
16:26:50 <HackEso> 67 81 78 04 fe ff ff: cmpl $0x7ffffffe,0x4(%eax) \ 7f
16:27:15 <ais523> `as-encoding cmpl $0x7ffffffe, 0x4(%rax)
16:27:17 <HackEso> 81 78 04 fe ff ff 7f: cmpl $0x7ffffffe,0x4(%rax)
16:32:25 <ais523> `as-encoding adc $0x00, 0x4(%rax)
16:32:26 <HackEso> 83 50 04 00: adcl $0x0,0x4(%rax)
16:32:48 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why the assembler requires an operand size suffix for cmp but not add
16:33:41 <int-e> `as-encoding adcb $0x00, 0x4(%rax)
16:33:42 <HackEso> 80 50 04 00: adcb $0x0,0x4(%rax)
16:35:06 <int-e> `as-encoding cmp $0x00, 0x4(%rax)
16:35:08 <HackEso> 83 78 04 00: cmpl $0x0,0x4(%rax)
16:35:30 <int-e> `as-encoding adc $0x7ffffffe, 0x4(%rax)
16:35:31 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
16:35:40 <int-e> `as-encoding cmp $0x01, 0x4(%rax)
16:35:42 <HackEso> 83 78 04 01: cmpl $0x1,0x4(%rax)
16:35:47 <int-e> `as-encoding cmp $0x101, 0x4(%rax)
16:35:48 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
16:35:57 <int-e> `as-encoding cmp $0x81, 0x4(%rax)
16:35:58 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
16:36:21 <int-e> so if it fits into a signed byte it doesn't complain, is my gues now...
16:36:52 <int-e> (but at least it's consistent between cmp and adc)
16:42:42 <ais523> <int-e> (The Esochain thing annoys me.) ← we really need to have a wiki-wide discussion about topicality at some point
16:43:11 <ais523> especially, the extent to which people should be allowed to use the site like a social network rather than a documentation site
16:43:41 <ais523> I normally don't try to shut this sort of thing down immediately, but maybe I should
16:45:40 <int-e> Do we have enough hammers to shut it down?
16:46:04 <ais523> if there are clear, agreed rules I would probably be able to enforce them
16:46:13 <int-e> I mean, I don't think this is a proper use for a Wiki. Any Wiki, really.
16:46:50 <ais523> when I don't moderate things, partly it's due to a lack of time, and partly it's due to a lack of mental capacity to handle the ensuing arguments
16:47:11 <ais523> together with the general Esolang rule of "if in doubt, close the browser"
16:47:28 <ais523> it used to be that I just enforced the rules, I didn't make them – but nowadays nobody else is making them, there are other admins but they rarely do anything
16:47:32 <int-e> But if it's confined to a single pager I can ignore the esolangs messages and be happy enough... I just had trouble getting the pattern right.
16:47:51 <int-e> (/ignore is an IRC equivalent to closing the browser)
16:48:16 <int-e> I had a similar thing for all of User:A's edits
16:48:39 <int-e> (Whom you probably remember.)
16:48:44 <ais523> it would be hard not to
16:49:37 <ais523> I am not sure how much consensus there is about "should the wiki be usable like a social network?" nor even who I'd get consensus from – I think someone (korvo?) argued in favour of that sort of thing on Wikipedia a while ago
16:50:50 <ais523> I would personally generally prefer everything on the wiki to be kept esolang-related in the sense of "does this help you develop, program in, document or understand esolangs and esoteric programming?"
16:50:57 <korvo> ais523: I'm in favor of inclusion in the main namespace and also in favor of special-interest groups, wikiprojects, etc. But really what I mean by that is that I left English WP because Esperanza was dissolved and admins kept deleting articles that I had put effort into.
16:50:57 <int-e> Well there's a whole User: namespace for socializing.
16:51:15 <ais523> int-e: oh yes, the esochain thing is in the wrong namespace
16:51:17 <korvo> I'm not in favor of ad-hoc namespaces or going against consensus.
16:51:47 <ais523> but I also think that there's a resonable argument that socializing should be banned everywhere, including the User: namespace
16:52:30 <korvo> I've been waffling over whether I should signal to PTSF and others that their pastebins and other misuses of user:. Maybe I waffled too long.
16:52:48 <ais523> fwiw my current position on the "correct inclusionism/deletionism policy for Wikipedia" is that it should be almost entirely driven by verifiability
16:52:56 <int-e> My main problem with the Esochain thing is that it feels like it's just a way to generate edits. Which, sitting on this channel translates to spam.
16:52:59 <ais523> err, verifiability by secondary sources
16:53:12 <ais523> if it is, that implies that at least some people care – if it isn't, you can't write an article about it anyway
16:53:15 <int-e> If it just existed as a mostly static page... I wouldn't even care.
16:53:48 <ais523> ah, my main problem with the Esochain thing is that a game that uses a list of esolang names as input isn't esolang-related enough to be ontopic
16:54:01 <int-e> (Though if you asked whether it should exists I probably would still say no, but out of sight, out of mind works well!)
16:54:13 <ais523> and even for games that are esolang-related, they should be documented on the wiki, but not played on the wiki
16:54:34 <ais523> like, BF Joust has its own servers, we don't play it by editing wiki pages, instead we edit the wiki pages to document the game
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16:55:32 <int-e> I'll say that having subsections called "server" at least makes it look like a Discord parody, which was good for a singular giggle.
16:56:09 <korvo> I would like wikiprojects, BTW. Boxes. Knowledge snippets. Generic pages. The wiki is getting to be broad, and it needs better organizational tools to create a more uniform and cohesive presentation of knowledge.
16:56:33 <ais523> anyway, for people who do think it shouldn't be there, I encourage you to say so on the talk page, because doing that makes it easier to delete
16:56:56 <ais523> korvo: wikiprojects in the sense of content organisation rather than in the sense of "here's a list of people who have committed to working on this"?
16:57:22 <ais523> I don't think we have enough editors – especially enough editors who care about content curation rather than just adding new esolang ideas – to staff a wikiproject
16:59:37 <korvo> I'll leave a note in a minute. I'd like to point out here that anybody with a database dump can programmatically play the game with (stochastic) perfect play. The goal of such a game, when given to children, is to help them learn to spell and pronounce e.g. animal names; there's no similar need for esoteric language names.
16:59:44 <ais523> fwiw, I have also been considering deleting the language list and making the "semi-serious language list" (which is a silly name for it) into the new Language List, using Category:Languages to replace the purpose of the old language list
17:00:24 <ais523> korvo: fwiw I believe perfect play in that is very difficult because it's a multiplayer game with more than two players, and if that wasn't hard enough, you don't know how many players there are or what the turn order is
17:00:36 <korvo> ais523: Or just in the sense of "this article is part of a series on brainfuck", TBH. I'm a brutalist though and I'm not going to insist on a specific presentation without supporting structure, both in the code and in the community.
17:01:08 <ais523> korvo: oh yes, lists and navboxes and series and the like are what I think the best form adding structure to the wiki si
17:01:17 <ais523> esolangs often form related groups
17:01:46 <ais523> one of the ones I remember best is the whole set of nopfunge derivatives
17:02:21 <ais523> but esolangs are varied enough that I don't think those should be forced into some overarching structure, I think we should do whatever makes the most sense for the series itself, even if it's incompatible with other series
17:02:53 * ais523 laments how the plural of singular "series" pronounced differently, yet there's no way to distinguish the singular from the plural when writing
17:03:57 <ais523> I thought the singular was pronounced with a short /i/ near the end and the plural with a long /iː/, but Wiktionary tells me that that's actually a US vs. UK distinction
17:04:14 <ais523> are Americans more likely to talk about one series at a time than Brits are, and it lead to me inferring an incorrect rule?
17:05:00 <korvo> Sure. I'm a postmodernist, so I look at [[category:concepts]] or [[category:data types and structures]] as already forcing a lot of structure onto the situation, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Can't have tomatoes, peanuts, pumpkins, or even beans without a supporting pole.
17:05:29 <ais523> I was thinking more that categories are for what consistent overarching structure we have, which there are bits of (like computational class categories)
17:05:49 <ais523> and lists and cross-links are more for things that make sense locally within a group of pages but that we wouldn't want to apply to every page on the wiki
17:06:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163928&oldid=163884 * Int-e * (+378) meh
17:06:17 <ais523> when I write an esolang page, I check it against every category on Esolang:Categorisation to see if it fits
17:12:15 <int-e> (stepping away from the annoyance, it's kind of interesting that as a spam vehicle, this page has been more successful than that other page that was supposed to be edited one character at a time)
17:14:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163929&oldid=163928 * Corbin * (+557) /* This is a spam machine, please delete */ A game that can be played by a script running on a database dump? And it's not even educational.
17:14:52 <ais523> I think I might have pointed out that that page was impractical for spamming reasons
17:17:33 <ais523> hmm, maybe there should also be a rule along the lines of "an esolang must exist independently of the page that describes it" – that doesn't mean that it needs to be documented anywhere else or the like, but it must be a case of "think of the esolang, write a page about it" rather than creating a page first and hoping it turns into an esolang
17:18:21 <ais523> there are so many pages which are just "you can edit whatever commands you like onto this page" or the like – that's potentially a way to create an esolang (although it tends to not work in practice) but the esolang doesn't exist until later, so maybe the design process should happen offsite
17:18:42 <int-e> be careful not to outlaw https://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
17:20:04 <ais523> int-e: I don't think that breaks the rules – naming an esolang after a spam page is allowed because the esolang existed before the page about it did
17:20:23 <ais523> the original spam page would have broken the rules, the later page with the same name doesn't
17:20:39 <ais523> creating a spam page with the intent of later editing it into an esolang would be disallowed, but probably should be?
17:23:05 <ais523> `as-encoding cmpl $0xfffffffe, (%rax)
17:23:09 <HackEso> 83 38 fe: cmpl $0xfffffffe,(%rax)
17:23:11 <int-e> It's hard to /define/ a minimum standard for an esolang. And is anybody going to wade through the existing slop of stubby, non-computing, and example-only languages?
17:23:24 <ais523> `as-encoding cmpq $0xfffffffe, (%rax)
17:23:26 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `cmp'
17:23:49 <ais523> `as-encoding cmpq $0xfffffffffffffffe, (%rax)
17:23:50 <HackEso> 48 83 38 fe: cmpq $0xfffffffffffffffe,(%rax)
17:23:51 <int-e> (non-computing: there are a number of constant output languages, for starters)
17:24:23 <ais523> a constant output language is still well-defined, the main issue is whether it even counts as a programming language (although I think it's OK for esolangs.org to investigate that issue / document thoughts about it)
17:24:49 <ais523> but it might make sense to group those languages onto a single page, especially if there is nothing to say about them beyond what string they print
17:25:03 <korvo> ais523: Suppose I come across a page like [[esolang:awesome commons liscence]]. How would you like me to mark it? I can create talk pages in every case if you like.
17:25:21 <int-e> That could be done on a single "meta" page that captures the whole class of constant output languages.
17:26:08 <ais523> korvo: I'm not sure, normally I just delete those things when someone brings my attention to them
17:26:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esolang:Awesome commons liscence]]": offtopic
17:26:32 <korvo> int-e: Is it time to make [[constant language]]? We just have to figure out the bikeshed at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization#Constant_languages
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17:29:38 <int-e> korvo: Hmm, I see that the point has been made there already.
17:31:57 <int-e> (ais523 brought it up)
17:32:52 <esolangs> [[ALMBARC12YO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163930&oldid=127498 * Corbin * (+32) Identify a TBS.
17:33:32 <b_jonas> ais523: I wasn't thinking that it overflows to infinity, I thought it would overflow to a finite number from which if you subtract 1 it doesn't change, but you're right, that doesn't work. I'll have to think if there's something similar that could work though, like maybe if you add 0.5 bias or something.
17:33:54 <korvo> Apparently many of the youngsters are refugees from a Fandom wiki: https://amogus.fandom.com/wiki/Amogus_Wiki
17:34:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163931&oldid=163929 * Int-e * (+1) /* This is a spam machine, please delete */ fix typo
17:34:42 <esolangs> [[AmogusScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163932&oldid=117800 * Corbin * (-51) Fix categories.
17:34:56 <b_jonas> isn't normally in a register alraedy => that's the advantage of using an integer, because the instructions that I use (cmp, test, adc, sbb) work with a memory output operand
17:36:15 <b_jonas> whereas eg. the cmovb instruction only works with register output operand, and I think that's true for SSE2 floating point operands too, but maybe AVX512 changes that or something
17:36:37 <int-e> korvo: A lot of this is a matter of finding the energy to actually consolidate existing contents. Though I guess that there's also value in having a page to point to for new additions, lowering the bar for deletions.
17:36:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/PasteBin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163933 * Corbin * (+407) Use a proper pastebin please.
17:37:04 <int-e> I, for one, don't see myself actually going through pages looking for existing constant languages.
17:37:13 <b_jonas> I admit that the just two instructions for incrementing or decrementing only works in the simplest case, often you'll have more instructions than that
17:37:21 <korvo> int-e: I hope to demonstrate that I have the energy and what I am mostly looking for is consensus on what to do.
17:38:32 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163934&oldid=117793 * Corbin * (+1) Fix categories.
17:39:56 <b_jonas> but I would like to hear the details of how you'd use the floating point method, I can't tell yet how simple it is
17:40:37 <esolangs> [[AMONGUSISABIGSUSSYBAKAHAHAHAHAHATHISLANGUAGEISREALLYCOOLPLEASEUSEITMYLIFEDEPENDSONITORELSEPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSkahyghdfhm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163935&oldid=117855 * Corbin * (-40) Fix categories.
17:41:12 <esolangs> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163936&oldid=83342 * Unlimiter * (-8)
17:41:33 <esolangs> [[AZZTURBLICHINORTYEUSIACNOSIPTYRUTIEOSUNEMEEETIRMSPLAORRRRRRRRRRRRRRHSIFUGISSFGIUUUUUUUUUUUUGUIGSEIUFGYUSGNYGNXWGNYX123456789012345678901145141919810TROSHPPAOCONALMELANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163937&oldid=125068 * Corbin * (-22) Fix categories.
17:42:40 <ais523> b_jonas: changing the referencing count is just a multiply by 2 / divide by 2, but you would indeed need another instruction to check if it had become zero (only for decrements, though, for obvious reaosns)
17:42:55 <esolangs> [[JamogusLamogusAmogus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163938&oldid=120041 * Corbin * (+1) Fix categories.
17:43:11 <ais523> err, multiply by 0.5, not divide by 2, obviously
17:43:31 <ais523> I think the float instructions don't allow literals, so you would need an extra instruction to load the value of the constant to multiply/divide by
17:43:35 <ais523> so, the float method is probably less efficient
17:43:59 <esolangs> [[LOLSUS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163939&oldid=117799 * Corbin * (+1) Fix categories.
17:44:33 <ais523> that said, the float versions would SIMDify much better, but it's hard to imagine how that situation would ever come up
17:44:52 <ais523> I guess if you were using scatter/gather to operate on four different reference-counted things in parallel…
17:45:22 <int-e> ais523: Oh I think I've just arrived at the same preexisting esolang idea... because while the wiki is ostensibly about documenting esolangs, as a reader it's much more valuable to have a diversity of ideas. And if you make up an esolang just because you want to leave a mark on the wiki... well... it's likely to be another instance of the most unoriginal concepts that we already have a dozen...
17:45:23 <b_jonas> ok, I got that part, but I'm less familiar with how the floating point instructions work than the integer, especially how easily you can do a conditional call when the last reference is freed, and whether avx2 or avx512 could help with this in some way.
17:45:28 <int-e> ...times on the wiki.
17:46:06 <esolangs> [[Sus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163940&oldid=117791 * Corbin * (+1) Fix categories.
17:46:50 <esolangs> [[Suscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163941&oldid=117795 * Corbin * (-17) Fix categories.
17:47:10 <ais523> b_jonas: looks like the instruction you'd need is UCOMISS (SSE and later)
17:47:25 <int-e> . o O ( Maybe we should require rationales... "Why another esolang?" :-P )
17:47:34 <esolangs> [[Suscript 2.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163942&oldid=119407 * Corbin * (+1) Fix categories.
17:48:10 <ais523> UCOMISS a, b is very similar to CMP a, b except that it sets the parity flag if either a or b is a NaN
17:48:19 <ais523> and works on floats rather than ints
17:48:30 <ais523> there's UCOMISD too, for doubles
17:49:08 <esolangs> [[SusLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163943&oldid=117798 * Corbin * (+8) Fix categories.
17:50:10 <esolangs> [[This esoteric programming language has one of the longest titles, and yet it only has one command, which is such a shame, but there is no way to undo it so we may as well stick with it]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163944&oldid=149502 * Corbin * (-36) Fix categories and formatting.
17:50:47 <esolangs> [[When the Imposter is Sus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163945&oldid=124399 * Corbin * (-16) Fix categories.
17:51:54 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163946&oldid=120451 * Corbin * (-17) Fix categories.
17:53:09 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163947&oldid=158968 * Corbin * (-17) Fix categories.
17:53:33 <esolangs> [[lang without Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163948&oldid=132865 * Corbin * (-17) Fix categories.
17:54:23 -!- Everything has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
17:58:33 <b_jonas> ok, so there's still one extra instruction to load a constant 0.5 into a register before you mulsd for decreasing the reference count, but you only need one instruction to tell whether the last reference is gone and put the result into eflags on which you can do a conditional jump
17:59:33 <b_jonas> or perhaps it's better to say that there's an extra instruction to store the reference count after
18:03:41 <ais523> a good property of the adc/sbb implementation is that you can do it directly on memory with a RMW instruction and have the flags set already
18:05:49 <ais523> looks like LLVM doesn't produce an implementation anything like that one, from naive code: https://rust.godbolt.org/z/PPf9ErjTr
18:06:25 <ais523> using u32 rather than i32 doesn't help either
18:07:34 <b_jonas> I hadn't realized the float comparison would be so simple, I thought you needed a longer sequence of instructions
18:07:56 <ais523> …and now I'm wondering whether it's faster to read the same memory address twice in a row with the second being an RMW, or to load the value into a register, read and RMW the register, and store the register again
18:08:50 <int-e> oh, you want sbb to avoid the conditional jump
18:09:09 <int-e> and floats because inf/2 = inf
18:09:12 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it can go either way depending on what else you do around that.
18:09:24 * int-e is piecing together the context, slowly
18:10:09 <ais523> oh, the optimisation is probably actually invalid in Rust, I forgot that Rust's current semantics ban speculative writes to &mut data
18:10:31 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't specifically want to avoid the conditional jump, it's just that this is fewer instructions either way... although to be fair the cpu can often merge a cmp followed by a conditional jump to a microinstruction so it might be almost as good
18:10:38 <ais523> i.e. the compiler is not allowed to generate a write to a memory address unless it is written in the naive program execution, even if mutably borrowed (what if you had an &mut to a read-only page and used its value to determine whether it was read-only or not?)
18:11:01 <ais523> but adding a *refcount += 0 at the start doesn't change things
18:11:15 <b_jonas> and I don't claim that the sbc solution that I said is optimal either, I only said that it's simpler than I can imagine any solution with floats will be
18:11:32 <ais523> it is simpler than I was expecting for an integer-register solution
18:13:17 <int-e> ais523: https://rust.godbolt.org/z/17ezf3Pbj produces a cmov
18:14:16 <int-e> (but you could say that it's also very much on the nose about what kind of code I want)
18:14:59 <ais523> int-e: you changed the sense of the return value there
18:15:09 <ais523> it's supposed to return true if the refcount fell to 0
18:15:35 <int-e> it won't matter, it's just setne vs. sete
18:15:37 <ais523> my best so far is https://rust.godbolt.org/z/x49dKMov7
18:15:46 <ais523> int-e: no, you are returning the result of the comparison to INT_MAX
18:15:56 <ais523> not whether the decrement made the value
18:16:28 <int-e> right, I'd have to use rc == 1... and that does produce worse code
18:16:47 <int-e> okay, I retract my "huh"
18:17:23 <ais523> my version which unreachable_unchecked the subtraction to not negative-overflow does seem to be able to reuse the carry bit from the subtraction
18:17:37 <ais523> but it isn't using it as an input to sbb
18:21:37 <ais523> I tried writing b_jonas's assembly as a direct translation to Rust, using «let (new_refcount, _) = refcount.borrowing_sub(0, *refcount <= u32::MAX - 1);», but it still didn't generate an sbb instruction (which is a bit of a shame because borrowing_sub exists more or less directly as an interface to the sbb instruction)
18:21:46 <ais523> or, I should say will exist, it's still unstable
18:22:11 <b_jonas> ais523: what type is refcount?
18:22:34 <b_jonas> ok, I saw an i32 in int-e's code and that's what got me scared here
18:22:46 <ais523> I started with i32 then changed to u32 because this doesn't need to go negative
18:23:07 <b_jonas> ais523: and the problem isn't that rust is doing some overflow checking here?
18:23:29 <ais523> I have an unreachable_unchecked to tell the compiler to optimise as though there can't be a negative overflow
18:23:51 <ais523> (and it does indeed do that, by using the carry flag after the subtraction as the return from the function)
18:25:26 <int-e> ais523: *refcount -= (*refcount != u32::MAX) as u32; behaves decently too
18:25:50 <ais523> I did that earlier, same decent but sbbless code
18:26:28 <ais523> there are all these processor instructions like sbb and rcr that compilers will hardly ever generate (I do see sbb in code that operates on 128-bit integers but it may be a special case in the compiler)
18:26:57 <int-e> related: https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/issues/43016
18:26:59 <ais523> rcr has horrible performance if the shift argument isn't a hardcoded 1, but that's usually the argument you actually want in practice
18:28:10 <ais523> int-e: I agree it's related, although it looks like a different optimisation
18:28:38 <int-e> yeah the pattern is a bit different, more about producing an intermediate 0 or -1
18:28:39 <esolangs> [[Constant language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163949 * Corbin * (+2746) Stub a concept.
18:29:00 <ais523> in particular it's generating specifically code that sbbs a register from itself
18:29:15 <ais523> and points out that the performance of that depends on the processor (some processors have a false dependency on that, others don't)
18:30:55 <int-e> does LLMV have sbb "natively" or only in a late peephole phase, I wonder.
18:31:39 <korvo> ais523, int-e: ^^ This is the page that I'll use as a bluelink when tearing down [[category:nope. derivatives]]. I'm also willing to tear down [[category:User Edited]], which wasn't discussed. In general, it seems PaxtonPenguin isn't really fond of following rules about creating pages; they also have a sandbox.
18:31:46 <b_jonas> in BASICs, what's the semantics of NEXT when GOTOs into or out of the loop can be involved? does NEXT effectively scan backwards in the code in line number order to find the matching FOR skipping balanced FOR-NEXT pairs, ignoring actual GOTO control flow? or, in older BASICs, scan backwards in line number order to find the FOR with the same variable name, ignoring actual control flow? or does it work
18:31:52 <b_jonas> differently and you have to execute the FOR to remember at runtime where NEXT will jump to?
18:32:02 <b_jonas> and similar question for WEND in later BASICs
18:32:26 <ais523> I don't think I ever actually tried it, even though I used to write quite a lot of BASIC when I was young
18:32:34 <APic> Nighty-Night! cu! *wave*
18:33:07 <ais523> I generally thought of goto-based and structured-programming-based programming styles as separate and didn't try to mix them
18:33:59 <ais523> and I don't think I thought of the possibility even of jumping out of a loop until I started writing in extremely-old-fashioned C++ instead
18:34:12 <esolangs> [[Computable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163950&oldid=163708 * Corbin * (-10) /* History */ Bluelink.
18:34:23 <b_jonas> I'm asking because the new video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Jtv8hvau4 shows a BASIC code that has jumps out then back into the FOR-NEXT loop, because this is the dialect of BASIC where the IF statement can only GOTO, and the bodies of the IF conditionals are written outside of the loop rather than written inline and skipped over
18:34:53 <b_jonas> but it only jumps into a FOR loop when it recently jumped out of it
18:35:12 <b_jonas> I'm not asking about the semantics of that code in particular, but in general for more tricky programs
18:36:02 <ais523> it's a perfectly reasonable question, I just don't know the answer because I never tried it
18:36:14 <ais523> my guess would be the "scan backwards" approach but it's just a guess
18:36:43 <ais523> (although I kind-of expect most BASICs with FOR…NEXT to cache which FORs match which NEXTs, so that no actual scan is needed)
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18:42:18 <esolangs> [[Constant language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163951&oldid=163949 * Corbin * (+222) Technically recognizing a quine-avoiding constant language is at most L, not NONE; some effort is required. But I bet it's more like AC.
18:42:23 <b_jonas> well, I don't have a use for this now, I am not writing BASIC programs to old systems with limited memory where I'd want tricks like that for optimization, and I don't want to write a basic interpreter
18:44:09 <esolangs> [[Constant language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163952&oldid=163951 * Corbin * (+101) /* Quine avoidance */ More words. Trying to keep a reasonable amount of humor.
18:52:50 <esolangs> [[GRAND LEMURE!!1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163953 * WarzokERNST135 * (+145) Created page with "This is a weird esolang in which I JUST WANNA EXIST ==Hello World:== so grand man oui oui Andes le krouche "Worlde' Hllo" Crunde le vange."
18:54:12 <esolangs> [[GRAND LEMURE!!1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163954&oldid=163953 * WarzokERNST135 * (+84) /* Hello World: */
18:54:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
18:55:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * V tgbjmehny * New user account
18:56:21 <esolangs> [[ewankalite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163955 * WarzokERNST135 * (+348) Created page with "[[ewankalite]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]] in which valid programs are ''''- wait... lemme focus <br>[[GRAND LEMURE!!1]] <br>and it's even weirder than grand lemure <br>Look: oot$hift 454t68 'gheloaWreLed' ===\=++ e bottles of beer on the wa
18:57:22 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163956&oldid=163863 * WarzokERNST135 * (+49)
19:04:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163957&oldid=163894 * V tgbjmehny * (+160) /* Introductions */
19:05:12 <esolangs> [[lang without Quine with Quine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163958 * WarzokERNST135 * (+3391) Created page with "lang without Quine with Quine is an esolang made by WE135. As in lang without Quine, if you put <code></code>, then it outputs: <pre> 1956 -..."
19:06:10 <esolangs> [[lang without Quine with Quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163959&oldid=163958 * WarzokERNST135 * (+0)
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19:17:59 <esolangs> [[MODULARBALL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163960 * Aadenboy * (+2896) not sure if it would be possible to implement anything using this but I'll throw it out here anyways
19:20:07 <esolangs> [[Constant language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163961&oldid=163952 * Corbin * (+300) Hack out a denotative abstraction.
19:20:50 <esolangs> [[User:V tgbjmehny]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163962 * V tgbjmehny * (+996) Created page with "== mfsbpltthann == My name is V tgbjmehny, which as you can see is just random letters my esolang: === Name: === my first stack based programming language that totally has a normal name === How it works: === new [name of varable] push [name of var
19:21:22 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163963&oldid=163359 * Aadenboy * (+84) /* my own esolangs */ add [[MODULARBALL]]
19:21:30 <esolangs> [[User:V tgbjmehny]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163964&oldid=163962 * V tgbjmehny * (+3) /* Truth-machine */
19:22:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163965&oldid=163924 * Aadenboy * (+18) /* M */ add [[MODULARBALL]]
19:22:53 <esolangs> [[User:V tgbjmehny]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163966&oldid=163964 * V tgbjmehny * (+1) /* Hello, World! */
19:23:19 <esolangs> [[User:V tgbjmehny]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163967&oldid=163966 * WarzokERNST135 * (+14) /* How it works: */ code structuring
19:24:57 <esolangs> [[lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163968&oldid=163947 * Corbin * (+4) Identify a CL.
19:25:33 <esolangs> [[User:V tgbjmehny]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163969&oldid=163967 * V tgbjmehny * (+11) /* Hello, World! */
19:25:46 <esolangs> [[User:V tgbjmehny]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163970&oldid=163969 * V tgbjmehny * (-11) /* Hello, World! */
19:25:52 <esolangs> [[lang without Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163971&oldid=163948 * Corbin * (+28) Identify a QACL.
19:27:56 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163972&oldid=163096 * Corbin * (-49) Identify a CL.
19:28:25 <esolangs> [[Template:BG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163973 * WarzokERNST135 * (+144) Created page with "<includeonly> <p style="background-color: {{{1}}};">{{{2}}}</p> </includeonly> <noinclude> This is used to give a background color to your text."
19:28:35 <esolangs> [[User:V tgbjmehny]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163974&oldid=163970 * V tgbjmehny * (+13) /* Hello, World! */
19:29:14 <esolangs> [[No.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163975&oldid=160719 * Corbin * (-87) Identify a CL.
19:29:21 <esolangs> [[User:V tgbjmehny]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163976&oldid=163974 * V tgbjmehny * (+13) /* Truth-machine */
19:30:43 <esolangs> [[No.pe.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163977&oldid=136251 * Corbin * (+26) Identify a QACL.
19:32:17 <esolangs> [[No.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163978&oldid=163975 * Corbin * (-24) /* Interpreters */ Bluelinks.
19:33:32 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163979&oldid=140987 * Corbin * (+39) Identify a CL.
19:34:18 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135/SIGNATURE SANDBOX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163980 * WarzokERNST135 * (+343) Created page with "{{SUBST:BG|blue|{{SUBST:Font color|yellow|}}}}{{SUBST:BG|green|{{SUBST:Font color|white|}}}}{{SUBST:BG|yellow|{{SUBST:Font color|red|}}}}Don't ask me. [[WarzokERNST135]]"
19:35:46 <esolangs> [[ without a Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163981&oldid=141390 * Corbin * (+113) Identify a QACL.
19:37:33 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163982&oldid=163562 * Corbin * (-31) Fix categories.
19:40:37 <esolangs> [[Violation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163983&oldid=135687 * Corbin * (+115) Identify a CL.
19:42:31 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135/SIGNATURE SANDBOX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163984&oldid=163980 * WarzokERNST135 * (-46)
19:45:18 <esolangs> [[User:V tgbjmehny]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163985&oldid=163976 * WarzokERNST135 * (-2) /* bye! */
19:50:54 <korvo> [[template:lang]] is curious. I wish that they *discussed* this sort of thing first.
19:50:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163986&oldid=163931 * WarzokERNST135 * (+383) /* Server 4 */
19:52:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163987&oldid=163986 * WarzokERNST135 * (+1)
19:53:10 <esolangs> [[Unmatched (]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163988&oldid=151391 * Corbin * (-43) Identify a CL.
19:54:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163989&oldid=123494 * KakkoiiChris * (+2) Fixed spelling, added formatting, and changed some wording.
19:54:46 <esolangs> [[TW'sLE!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163990&oldid=145894 * Corbin * (-22) Identify a CL.
19:58:57 <esolangs> [[Permission denied]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163991&oldid=149943 * Corbin * (-40) Identify a CL.
20:00:33 <esolangs> [[NOP (esolang)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163992&oldid=149109 * Corbin * (-8) Identify a CL.
20:01:40 <esolangs> [[Nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163993&oldid=151386 * Corbin * (+37) Identify a CL.
20:02:32 <esolangs> [[MAIACORD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163994&oldid=156711 * Corbin * (-31) Fix categories.
20:04:45 -!- ursa-major has quit (Server closed connection).
20:04:54 -!- ursa-major has joined.
20:06:32 <esolangs> [[Machine-language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163995&oldid=162175 * Corbin * (+143) Fix categories. This joke isn't actually a language and certainly isn't TC, although it is funny and good food for thought.
20:08:18 <esolangs> [[Anti-Machine language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163996&oldid=162247 * Corbin * (-82) Fix categories. This language cannot be implemented on a machine, so it hasn't actually been implemented.
20:09:34 <esolangs> [[Kiwiscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163997&oldid=150461 * Corbin * (-105) Identify a CL.
20:11:35 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163998&oldid=160068 * Corbin * (-108) Identify a CL.
20:13:16 <esolangs> [[Fizzbuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163999&oldid=146667 * Corbin * (-130) Identify a CL.
20:13:54 <esolangs> [[Output (WarzokERNST135)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164000 * WarzokERNST135 * (+197) Created page with "{{lowercase}} this is an esolang made by WE135 in which every thing inputted to it just makes it output "output". == Quine == output == Self interpreter == <pre></pre> Make your own interpreters!!"
20:15:18 <esolangs> [[FH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164001&oldid=163512 * Corbin * (-52) Identify a CL.
20:15:58 <esolangs> [[Durge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164002&oldid=156040 * Corbin * (-31) Fix categories.
20:16:58 <esolangs> [[Compute]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164003&oldid=126216 * Corbin * (-11) Fix categories.
20:22:08 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/recursive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164004 * Tommyaweosme * (+31) Created page with "{{User:Tommyaweosme/recursive}}"
20:26:00 <esolangs> [[Category:Pages with template loops]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164005 * WarzokERNST135 * (+58) Created page with "This category is about the pages that have template loops."
20:27:56 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164006&oldid=154681 * Corbin * (+65) Identify a CL.
20:28:42 <esolangs> [[Hello, golf!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164007&oldid=125959 * Corbin * (+1) Identify a CL.
20:29:24 <esolangs> [[6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164008&oldid=160706 * Corbin * (-22) Identify a CL.
20:30:21 <esolangs> [[Arch is the best!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164009&oldid=163049 * Corbin * (+36) Identify a CL.
20:31:02 <esolangs> [[NoQuinebrainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164010 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+64) Created page with "same as brainfuck but using H returns a error"
20:31:22 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Pages with template loops]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164011 * Corbin * (+151) Discuss first, please.
20:32:04 <esolangs> [[Segmentation fault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164012&oldid=139788 * Corbin * (-55) Fix categories.
20:32:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164013&oldid=163486 * WarzokERNST135 * (+468)
20:33:53 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164014&oldid=137699 * Corbin * (+62) Identify a QACL.
20:34:54 <esolangs> [['Python' is not recognized]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164015&oldid=163807 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1)
20:34:56 <esolangs> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164016&oldid=133490 * Corbin * (-12) Identify a CL.
20:35:16 <esolangs> [[Nope. without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164017&oldid=164014 * Corbin * (-31) Fix categories.
20:37:03 <esolangs> [[Arch is the best!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164018&oldid=164009 * WarzokERNST135 * (+54) /* See also */
20:39:49 <esolangs> [[Rickroll]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164019&oldid=119667 * Corbin * (-36) Identify a CL. Note that [[Never Gonna Give You Up]] doesn't actually require the entire lyrics to be emitted, so the quine's only correct if this is in fact a CL.
20:40:12 <korvo> ais523: [[category:nope. derivatives]] has been emptied out.
20:40:29 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164020&oldid=163901 * H33T33 * (+9)
20:42:36 <esolangs> [[Unmatched (]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164021&oldid=163988 * Corbin * (-41)
20:42:58 <esolangs> [[Language of Laughing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164022&oldid=119819 * Corbin * (-27) Fix categories.
20:43:20 <esolangs> [[Stupidc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164023&oldid=86386 * Corbin * (-27) Fix categories.
20:43:35 <esolangs> [[StupidBASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164024&oldid=81532 * Corbin * (-27) Fix categories.
20:43:50 <korvo> [[category:stupid family]] has been emptied out too.
20:45:09 <esolangs> [[Output (WarzokERNST135)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164025&oldid=164000 * Corbin * (+114) Identify a CL. Add some categories.
20:45:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:TheSquare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164026&oldid=8546 * WarzokERNST135 * (+43)
20:46:14 <esolangs> [[Arch is the best! without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164027&oldid=163458 * Corbin * (+13) Identify a QACL.
20:53:15 <esolangs> [[ConstantLanguage()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164028 * WarzokERNST135 * (+662) Created page with "[[ConstantLanguage()]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]] in which its only functionality is to make a constant language. <br>Here is an example of the constant language "Hello, world!": ConstantLanguage("Hello, world!") It works like this: :When
20:53:32 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164029&oldid=163956 * WarzokERNST135 * (+27)
21:05:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164030&oldid=164013 * Aadenboy * (+386) /* Category: Templates with page loops */
21:06:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Psychopaths]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164031 * Corbin * (+424) Unusable for programming? Maybe.
21:09:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164032&oldid=164030 * WarzokERNST135 * (+362) /* Category: Templates with page loops */
21:10:08 <esolangs> [[User:/w/api.php/hidebots=1/urlversion=1/days=30/limit=50/action=feedrecentchanges/feedformat=atom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164033 * WarzokERNST135 * (+65) Created page with "THIS IS A FREE LANGUAGE FOR EVERYONE!!!! [[Category:User Edited]]"
21:13:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Unicornloverinf * New user account
21:15:06 <esolangs> [[User:/w/api.php/hidebots=1/urlversion=1/days=30/limit=50/action=feedrecentchanges/feedformat=atom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164034&oldid=164033 * Aadenboy * (+194)
21:15:15 <esolangs> [[User:/w/api.php/hidebots=1/urlversion=1/days=30/limit=50/action=feedrecentchanges/feedformat=atom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164035&oldid=164034 * Aadenboy * (-1) keyboard fumble
21:15:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164036&oldid=164032 * Aadenboy * (+0) /* Category: Templates with page loops */ bamboozled!
21:18:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164037&oldid=163957 * Unicornloverinf * (+245) /* Introductions */
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21:29:55 <esolangs> [[P2WFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164038&oldid=163893 * Tommyaweosme * (+70)
21:47:04 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164039&oldid=163979 * WarzokERNST135 * (+22) /* Interpreter */
21:53:18 <esolangs> [[ewankalite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164040&oldid=163955 * WarzokERNST135 * (+23)
21:57:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Tpcs print.png]]"
21:58:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Tpcs set variable pretzel.png]]"
22:04:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Tpcs repeat until.png]]"
22:04:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Tpcs hello world.png]]"
22:04:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Tpcs truth machine.png]]"
22:05:33 <esolangs> [[Twisted Python Chat Server]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164046&oldid=25232 * Tommyaweosme * (+240)
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23:37:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:YOUR TAKING TOO LONG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164047&oldid=161022 * Tommyaweosme * (+233)
23:42:42 <esolangs> [[User:Cinnamony]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164048&oldid=154214 * Cinnamony * (+202) this is actually tommyaweosme, cinnamony is my former account
00:15:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Nope. derivatives]]": unapproved category that is very likely misnamed, and would have had a better name if it were discussed (but we may end up using a list page instead)
00:15:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164049&oldid=160188 * Ais523 * (-34) /* Derivatives */ rm undiscussed category
00:16:21 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164050&oldid=163818 * Hotcrystal0 * (-689)
00:16:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:/w/api.php/hidebots=1/urlversion=1/days=30/limit=50/action=feedrecentchanges/feedformat=atom]]": page in userspace that does not correspond to an existing user
00:17:42 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Pages with template loops]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164051&oldid=164011 * Ais523 * (+389) this s a MediaWiki auto-category
00:19:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Joke examples]]": undiscussed category, currently unused
00:19:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Process measurement and control]]": undiscussed category, currently unused this may have been a category created in the hope that people would create languages to add to it, but that isn't how the categorisation system works
00:20:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Stupid family]]": unapproved category
00:20:23 <korvo> ki'esai! Thank you so much.
00:21:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Tutorials]]": unapproved category (this is possibly a good idea, but in any case it contains no pages, so it isn't useful unless someone actually writes some tutorials, and those could probably go in [[Category:Programming techniques]])
00:22:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164052&oldid=164049 * Ais523 * (+97) /* Miscellaneous */ add [[Category:Programming techniques]], which predates the "categories must be discussed" rule and was added by the same person
00:24:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164053&oldid=164036 * Ais523 * (-558) /* Category: Templates with page loops */ edit out overly long signature
00:25:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164054&oldid=164053 * Ais523 * (+536) /* Category: Templates with page loops */ some thoughts
00:26:51 -!- ais523 has joined.
00:27:31 <ais523> korvo: I'm not convinced your mention of Rice's theorem on the constant language page is correct – Rice's theorem has two conditions, a) that the property is true for at least one program and false for at least one program, and b) that the language is able to represent all computable functions
00:27:52 <ais523> although constant languages make a) impossible to satisfy, they don't satisfy b) either, making the lack of satisfaction of a) irrelevant
00:28:19 <ais523> condition a) is mostly there to exclude trivial properties like "the program starts executing", which would otherwise be counterexamples
00:29:23 <korvo> ais523: That's fair. (b) is really the issue there.
00:30:48 <korvo> FWIW the computable-universe perspective has a natural excuse for (a). We're given a blackbox semantic computer N → N and asked to figure out *any* property of it. Well, since the blackbox can be partial, we can't *run* the computer. That'd immediately risk not returning. The only thing we can do without poking the box is return a chosen point of the codomain.
00:31:35 <korvo> Since the codomain is traditionally 2, there are two natural points that we can choose, each given by a constant arrow.
00:33:40 <esolangs> [[Constant language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164055&oldid=163961 * Corbin * (-18) Rice's theorem is basically not relevant since constant languages can't represent any interesting computations. Pointed out by ais523 on IRC.
00:34:18 <ais523> right, the codomain doesn't really matter here, 2 is just the smallest codomain needed to give a useful result and it's possible to generalise up to bigger codomains from there
00:35:34 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164056&oldid=163925 * Hotcrystal0 * (-1) fixing typo
00:38:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164057&oldid=160736 * Hotcrystal0 * (+129)
00:38:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164058&oldid=164057 * Hotcrystal0 * (+251)
01:51:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164059&oldid=164058 * Tommyaweosme * (+127) /* HTML programs */
01:58:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tommyaweosme * uploaded "[[File:Esolang wiki graph with 24 nodes.png]]"
01:58:30 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164061&oldid=164050 * XP2PHOENIX * (+208) /* Ideas */
01:58:35 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164062&oldid=163891 * Tommyaweosme * (+46)
01:58:45 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164063&oldid=164061 * XP2PHOENIX * (+92) /* Ideas */
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03:39:22 <esolangs> [[Psychopaths]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164064&oldid=122940 * None1 * (+26) Change description
03:46:29 <esolangs> [[Brainfucking]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164065 * None1 * (+652) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1}} It ignores the code and always executes a [[brainfuck]] interpreter. Since it ignores the code, it is a [[no-code esolang]]. ==Examples== ===[[brainfuck]] interpreter=== Any text can go here. ===[[Self-interpreter]]=== Any text can go here. ==
03:46:36 <esolangs> [[Brainfucking]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164066&oldid=164065 * None1 * (+0)
03:47:05 <esolangs> [[Brainfucking]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164067&oldid=164066 * None1 * (+28)
03:48:40 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164068&oldid=163039 * None1 * (+82) /* General languages */
03:49:01 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164069&oldid=164068 * None1 * (+0) /* General languages */
03:50:36 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164070&oldid=163754 * None1 * (+82)
03:52:05 <esolangs> [[Permission denied]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164071&oldid=163991 * None1 * (+0) /* Example Programs */
03:53:45 <esolangs> [[Permission denied]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164072&oldid=164071 * None1 * (+45) /* Implementations */
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04:03:38 <esolangs> [[Constellation Cradle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164073 * RainbowDash * (+1630) stars and stuff i guess
04:05:51 <esolangs> [[Constellation Cradle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164074&oldid=164073 * RainbowDash * (+142) credit
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06:06:51 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164075&oldid=164056 * Ractangle * (+103) /* Server 2 */
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07:16:29 <esolangs> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164076&oldid=145296 * Lebster * (-1868) Rework interpreters
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09:08:46 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164077&oldid=164075 * Pifrited * (+40) /* Server 2 */
09:18:07 <esolangs> [[Permufuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164078&oldid=163927 * Pro465 * (+106) /* Cat program */ add smaller cat
09:51:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ClickUp * New user account
10:08:23 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164079&oldid=164077 * C0ffee * (+13)
10:10:56 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164080&oldid=164079 * C0ffee * (+11)
10:12:25 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164081&oldid=164080 * C0ffee * (+33)
10:42:48 <esolangs> [[Permufuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164082&oldid=164078 * Pro465 * (-106) /* Cat program */ Olus hasn't gotten got
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11:42:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Intiha420 * New user account
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12:04:25 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164083&oldid=164081 * PrySigneToFry * (-14) Add to server 2/4/4.5
12:06:56 <esolangs> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164084&oldid=146226 * PrySigneToFry * (+150)
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12:58:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164085&oldid=164054 * PrySigneToFry * (+963) /* "Nope. derivatives" VS "Constant languages" */ new section
13:12:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164086&oldid=164085 * PrySigneToFry * (+105) /* "Nope. derivatives" VS "Constant languages" */
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13:32:31 <esolangs> [[Merriment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164087&oldid=163890 * AlephSquirrel * (+28) Add Turing complete category (I'm practically certain it is, but I don't have an explicit construction)
13:34:58 <esolangs> [[PureFun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164088 * PrySigneToFry * (+3731) Created page with "PureFun is designed by PSTF, where everything are functions. It is based on [[Lambda calculus]]. = Core Principles = All values are functions: Booleans, numbers, pairs, and even control structures are defined as functions. Evaluation Strategy: Use lazy evaluati
13:36:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164089&oldid=163965 * PrySigneToFry * (+14)
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14:31:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ahineya * New user account
14:35:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164090&oldid=164037 * Ahineya * (+204) /* Introductions */
14:36:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164091&oldid=164090 * Ahineya * (-1) /* Introductions */
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14:48:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PrySigneToFry * uploaded "[[File:Velato Hello, world! program in double sheets.png]]": This is the dual stave version of the program "Hello, world!" in Velato, created by PrySigneToFry on Musescore 3.
14:53:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164093&oldid=164086 * Corbin * (+750) /* "Nope. derivatives" VS "Constant languages" */ Too little too late.
14:55:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:PureFun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164094 * Corbin * (+126) Tastes like RLHF.
15:04:53 <korvo> I have lmarena.ai open in a tab and I'm feeding snippets of wiki to it. I promise that I'm not being nefarious; I want to understand what some of our younger non-Anglophone speakers are grasping, given that they appear to be heavily reliant on LLMs for translation and generation.
15:19:58 <esolangs> [[Merriment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164095&oldid=164087 * AlephSquirrel * (+17) Add links to other languages
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15:34:06 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164096&oldid=163791 * Ais523 * (+25) /* R */ +[[Reversible Bitfuck]] I think this is different enough from the original language to count (the programming style is somewhat different)
15:38:57 <korvo> Hm. I'm reading the old discussions about quines, particularly about quineless TC languages, and it feels like there's some incommensurability. Like, folks are aware of Kleene's fixed point, but not of its implications.
15:41:32 <korvo> My thinking is that the set of natural numbers N has the fixed-point property in a computable universe: all computable maps N → N have a fixed point, and moreover they're defined at that fixed point. The theorem is constructive and proceeds directly from the fact that a computable universe has enumerations for all objects, including internalized maps [N, N].
15:42:55 <korvo> So, if one wants to have a quineless TC language, then one must start by reckoning with how their language will handle natural numbers and codes. I suspect that they'll find that they didn't really have a computable universe; they aren't actually able to enumerate some specific sort of first-class object.
15:50:29 <korvo> I'm gonna work the example from https://wwwep.stewartsplace.org.uk/quines/quineless.html which is attributed to ais523. Consider the language that is the union of Iota and question-mark-prefixed strings like "?asdf", but without the empty string. The attached semantics: if question-marked, emit the string; otherwise, reduce the string as an Iota program.
15:50:30 <int-e> I thought the typical quine-less TC language just picked program and output encodings that are disjoint
15:51:32 <korvo> This language has semidecidable output! Just check whether the first bits are "?". So calling it "quineless TC" is a little unfair. It's TC in the sense that Iota is TC: interpreted as Iota, it's undecidable whether a program has a normal form under reductions.
15:53:58 <int-e> (and you can combine that with ais523's idea for adding arbitrary output capability)
15:55:20 <korvo> I guess, but I don't see how those can be usefully interleaved.
15:57:20 <int-e> take a language whose programs are non-empty strings over {0,1}, and whose outputs are strings over {a,b}; that's quine-less but can easily be TC. Add question-mark-followed-by-string-over {?,0,1,a,b} to make it "output-complete".
15:57:33 <korvo> Like, I don't see how a clever encoding gets around the pipeline of TC-ness => Kleene's recursion => Rogers' fixed point => Gödel's diagonal lemma => Turing bird => self-application => WLOG access to own source code => quine.
15:58:29 <int-e> The last step, "access to own source code => quine", runs into the output restriction.
15:58:56 <int-e> I think the rest works, because you can pick suitable encodings for everything.
16:00:38 <int-e> (IIUC ais523 takes this to its extreme by having a TC fragment that has no output at all)
16:00:40 <korvo> Okay, then I think that the concept as documented is incoherent, or at least "evil" (varying under isomorphisms).
16:01:49 <korvo> To me, a quine is an instance of Quine's construction, where "is preceded by some quoted text" is preceded by some quoted text. It's a natural consequence of the existence of Turing birds, themselves ensured by the diagonal lemma.
16:03:00 <korvo> Like, category-theoretically I cannot be stopped from reading "a language whose programs are non-empty strings over 2 and whose outputs are strings over 2"; in FinSet (or Set!) there's no way to tell the difference between two-element sets, so there's no way to use labeling to artificially separate the domain and codomain.
16:09:54 <int-e> In the final step of your quine recipe, you have to be able to take a quotation and output its contents. And that's easy to subvert if you're willing to cripple the language's output capabilities.
16:10:54 <int-e> informally, you want to be able to print an arbitrary string that your program computed
16:11:07 <int-e> (assuming your programs are strings)
16:12:08 <int-e> And lacking that capability feels rather artificial... especially if the sole reason you're doing that is to prevent quines.
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16:13:11 <int-e> You can do more silly things... like, the interpreter can track program and output and the moment the output matches the program, append a multi-ocular o.
16:13:40 <korvo> It also contradicts the spirit of the concept, as introduced and explained by Hofstadter. I popped open GEB. He has an entire dialogue on the topic of Quine's construction where he focuses on use-mention. He talks about programming ergonomics but only to note that a language can make it *easier* to write a quine, not harder or impossible.
16:13:48 <int-e> Which also prevents quines, though it almost certainly won't prevent you from printing a program that's equivalent to the original program.
16:14:25 <int-e> (Not without giving the interpreter super-computable powers)
16:15:15 <korvo> His main goal was DNA, a non-output barely-language! p531: "There is a biochemical analogue to the use-mention dichotomy: when DNA is treated as a mere sequence of chemicals to be copied, it is like mention of typographical symbols; when DNA is dictating what operations shall be carried out, it is like use of typographical symbols."
16:16:59 <korvo> p530: "It is not by any means coincidental that the phrases 'sufficiently strong support system' and 'sufficiently powerful formal system' sound alike. One is the precondition for a self-rep to arise, the other for a self-ref to arise. In fact there is in essence only one phenomenon going on in two very different guises..."
16:20:14 <korvo> p449, mapping between truthiness and provability: "preceding a predicate by itself, in quotes ('quining')" <=> "substituting the Gödel number of an open formula into the formula itself ('arithmoquining')"
16:23:55 <korvo> p499, anticipating Muriel and ais523 somewhat: "In some computer language it might be a convention that nay program whose first symbol is an asterisk is to be copied before being executed normally. Then the program consisting of merely one asterisk is a self-rep! ...It is almost cheating to use the phrase 'this sentence' to achieve self-reference — it relies too much on the processor, and not enough on explicit directions for self-reference."
16:25:00 <korvo> "Using an asterisk as an example of a self-rep is like using the word 'I' as an example of a self-ref: both conceal all the interesting aspects of their respective problems. ... Before we call something a self-rep, we want to have the feeling that, to the maximum extent possible, it *explicitly* contains the directions for copying itself."
16:27:57 <korvo> On p499 Hofstadter says that what we call quines, he calls "self-reproducing object[s]" or "self-rep[s]". Quining can build a self-rep in a sufficiently-strong system, but other self-reps are possible too.
16:28:46 <korvo> int-e: This isn't to yell at you, but to suggest that we've culturally misunderstood Hofstadter's definition and examples.
16:30:55 <int-e> . o O ( Hehe, an author being misunderstood? Get in line... )
16:32:54 <int-e> korvo: one way to get around output restrictions, btw, is to change the interface: rather than "asking" the program to print is own source code, ask it to answer computable queries about its source code.
16:36:14 <int-e> (Though you need input capabilities for this. But we're far more used to dealing with encodings on that side.)
16:36:39 <korvo> I'm not sure I see much of a difference there. I'm still puzzled about output because the traditional formalisms I've listed on [[computable]] (lambda calculus, Diophantine equations, Turing machines, computable universes) don't have any notion of output. I'm not sure what I/O has to do with the story.
16:38:00 <int-e> Well, TMs do have output conventions. (At least two, a dedicated output tape, or the final state of the tape when the program terminates.)
16:38:56 <int-e> But anyway, output enters the picture because otherwise you have no mechanism for replication.
16:40:12 <korvo> Quining isn't about replication, but about quoting and self-reference. Self-reps can be generated by quining in sufficiently strong systems; that's the extent of the relationship between them.
16:41:08 <int-e> But the programming term "quine" has become to mean a program that prints its own source code and that requires output. I'm working backwards from that.
16:41:16 <korvo> I suppose that this is merely yet another case of programmers ignoring computer science.
16:42:34 <int-e> I just don't think it's a big deal.
16:44:36 <korvo> It's not globally a big deal, no. I do think that the whole "quineless TC" meme is a good example of programmer hubris. I also think that there are global issues that fundamentally arise from programmer hubris. But it's not worth editing the page.
16:46:48 <korvo> Similarly, although it's not a big deal, TMs *don't* have output. TMs generalize pen-and-paper work, and there's no notion of output there. We have grown used to a particular fancy machine that Turing did not describe, and we justify ourselves because we can craft an output by summarizing the tape, or craft an input by preparing the tape, etc.
16:48:09 <int-e> Let me guess, when you say "TM" you insist on using Turing's original paper as the sole defintion, and exclude all the other flavors that people tend to use, some of which do have output.
16:48:39 <korvo> It's the same sort of imprecision as saying that a language has semantics. Nope! A language has syntax: letters, grammar, etc. We typically *equip* a language with a chosen semantics and want all operations to be semantics-preserving. This is the difference between a standard category and a slice category.
16:49:21 <korvo> When it matters, yes, I'd like to use *exactly* the same abstracta as other mathematicians.
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16:49:56 <int-e> Mathematicians can't even agree on whether 0 is a natural number.
16:51:19 <korvo> 0 is an element of the initial semiring, regardless of whether people say "natural number" or "whole number". I mean, I could literally analogize this with a functor: programmers can't even agree on whether the always-failing regex is a legal regex.
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17:33:52 <ais523> fwiw, I always understood the "TC languages have a quine" rule as "any TC language is able to compute a representation of its own source code and perform arbitrary operations on it that the language allows" – but there is no requirement that the language is actually capable of outputting arbitrary strings, so it might not be able to output the source code even though it can compute it
17:37:12 <ais523> but this conversation has got me thinking about alternative formulations – some suggestions (above and on linked pages) more or less collapse to "any programming language that you can compile brainfuck into has a quine" and I think that may be correct
17:37:45 <ais523> and it may be correct even with BF-without-, (i.e. output only, no input)
17:39:02 <ais523> it feels like there should be a diagonal argument here
17:39:36 <ais523> (but the existence of the BF-to-language-X compiler is important as that compiler itself – i.e. its source code – is one of the inputs to the diagonalisation proof)
17:42:35 <int-e> ais523: You can do basically everything in Brainfuck for this: Write the compiler in Brainfuck, use quining so that it runs on itself as input. The other language just becomes an intermediate representation for a Brainfuck interpreter.
17:42:46 <ais523> OK, yes, this is an easy argument: suppose you have a compiler from BF-without-input to language X, written in BF; you can write a BF program that starts by creating data structures containing the compiler's source code and (using standard quine tricks) its own source code, then uses a BF self-interpreter to run the compiler on its own source code, then prints the output
17:42:56 <ais523> right, we had the same idea I think
17:43:09 <ais523> the BF-to-language-X compiler must produce a quine when written on that program, if it didn't it would be incorrect
17:43:16 <ais523> * when run on that program
17:44:22 <int-e> There's that multi-language "Ouroboros" quine; that's related.
17:44:25 <ais523> interestingly, this argument seems to only work because BF is deterministic
17:45:29 <int-e> https://esoteric.codes/blog/the-128-language-quine-relay -- oh 7 years old already
17:45:42 <ais523> ah, it still works as long as the compiler is guaranteed to produce output that is a correct implementation, even if it doesn't always produce the same output
17:46:23 <ais523> int-e: I find that uninteresting because it doesn't require any actual logic in most of the languages – you can use one language that contains 128 compilers from outputs to programs that print a constant string
17:46:34 <ais523> and only have to do the quining logic once, in that language
17:47:24 <ais523> normally, to avoid this problem, a multilanguage quine is defined to be a program that takes a language name or identifier as input, and outputs itself translated into the given language
17:48:11 <int-e> True; it's degenerate in that for many language you don't actually have a compiler, just something that can print arbitrary strings.
17:48:42 <ais523> right, only one of the languages even needs to be TC
17:48:59 <ais523> you can relay through Deadfish if you like (especially if the next language in the chain has a syntax that's a list of numbers)
17:51:11 <int-e> It's a bit more interesting if you optimize for size.
17:51:15 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
17:52:08 <ais523> I've seen some quine relays optimised for size, unless you're very careful with proper quine rules they normally end up as literals that print themselves
17:52:27 <ais523> like, program A is "1\n" which prints "1" in language A, program B is "1" which prints "1\n" in language B
17:52:47 <ais523> and I don't think there was ever a consensus about what specificially it is that makes a quine into a proper quine
17:53:48 <ais523> come to think of it, with error quines you can probably create a really big quine relay through thousands of languages that has distinct source code in all of them and reaches its starting point, but none of the programs do any interesting computation
17:56:05 <ais523> I guess the "payload-capable" definition would help a lot (i.e. you can insert (an encoding of) an arbitrary string into the quine and it survives around the whole loop), and is probably objectively definable
17:58:39 <int-e> I also imagined that we'd fix a set of languages to use. Or maybe the full cycle (with order). Like, that 128 languages quine-relay thing feels non-artificial in that it includes a ton of mainstream languages and goes through them in lexicographic order. I don't know whether candidate languages were specifically rejected for being too unwieldy of course.
17:59:25 <int-e> Heh, one of them is Piet.
18:01:02 <int-e> You'll still cover the majority of languages with just string encoding of course, and pick the more expressive ones to actually do more elaborate recoding of everything.
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18:05:28 <korvo> To bridge between "is deterministic" and "is guaranteed to produce output that is a correct implementation", note that quining has some sort of quotation, and the contents of a quote have to be mentioned literally. It's the same use-mention quirk as with first-class and second-class syntactic constructs in general.
18:35:39 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164097&oldid=164020 * H33T33 * (+589)
18:36:53 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164098&oldid=164097 * H33T33 * (+89)
18:37:09 <esolangs> [[Topple/Source Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164099&oldid=164098 * H33T33 * (+0)
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19:17:35 <esolangs> [[FP trivia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164100&oldid=102420 * Fpstefan * (-11) /* Program Combinators are used in Infix Notation */
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19:42:33 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164101&oldid=164083 * Ractangle * (+15) /* revreS 1 */
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20:49:27 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/deadfish programs generated with the genetic algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164102 * Tommyaweosme * (+143) Created page with "== 5-length programs == 6: isiso 8: issso == 9-length programs == 29: isisissio 32: isssssdio 65: issssssio 80: iisisssso 128: iisssssso"
20:50:29 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/deadfish programs generated with the genetic algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164103&oldid=164102 * Tommyaweosme * (+15) /* 9-length programs */
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22:21:34 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164104&oldid=164101 * WarzokERNST135 * (+16) /* Server 7 */
22:21:52 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164105&oldid=164104 * WarzokERNST135 * (+13) /* Server 5 */
22:24:04 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164106&oldid=164105 * WarzokERNST135 * (+13) /* Server 4 */
23:40:11 <esolangs> [[While true (cat)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164107&oldid=147183 * Hotcrystal0 * (+14) lowercase
23:51:31 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164108&oldid=163463 * Hotcrystal0 * (+56)
00:34:23 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164109&oldid=164063 * Hotcrystal0 * (+140)
00:34:33 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164110&oldid=164109 * Hotcrystal0 * (+6)
00:34:44 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164111&oldid=164110 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
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01:31:59 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck/Esointerpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164112&oldid=150416 * None1 * (+30) /* Cheating */
01:39:18 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164113&oldid=164108 * PrySigneToFry * (+122)
01:40:28 <esolangs> [[PureFun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164114&oldid=164088 * PrySigneToFry * (+47)
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03:20:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:PureFun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164115&oldid=164094 * PrySigneToFry * (+218)
03:21:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:PureFun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164116&oldid=164115 * PrySigneToFry * (+13)
03:22:14 <esolangs> [[Machine-language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164117&oldid=163995 * PrySigneToFry * (+24)
03:25:18 <esolangs> [[Anti-myself language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164118&oldid=142412 * PrySigneToFry * (+49)
03:35:48 <esolangs> [[Constant language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164119&oldid=164055 * PrySigneToFry * (+103)
03:38:14 <esolangs> [[lang without Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164120&oldid=163971 * PrySigneToFry * (+798)
03:39:41 <esolangs> [[ZeroDivisionError: Division by 0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164121&oldid=137966 * PrySigneToFry * (+20)
03:46:03 <esolangs> [[Rebellent Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164122&oldid=114999 * PrySigneToFry * (+137)
03:55:34 <esolangs> [[Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0 3rd time]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164123&oldid=163246 * PrySigneToFry * (+7)
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06:12:21 <zzo38> I had read about reversible computing that would use less power. I know some algorithms (e.g. ChaCha20) have some parts that are reversible, and I also don't know if a hybrid computer would help, nor how those specific reversible computing that they described is working; how is the instruction set, etc working
06:14:53 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164124&oldid=163525 * PrySigneToFry * (+650)
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07:18:57 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164125&oldid=163516 * PrySigneToFry * (+221)
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