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00:08:48 <esolangs> [[Teleporto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162595&oldid=162501 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+82) /* Programs */
00:13:21 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162596&oldid=162582 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+20)
00:18:21 <esolangs> [[Flash shockwave has been discontinued.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162597 * PJ11 * (+532) Created page with "[[Flash shockwave has been discontinued.]] is a joke esoteric programming language which is very gibberish and pretty much uninterpretable. ==[[Hello World]]== <pre> aueI90dsm%#oiDijij@!&#&#IO21(()=D@@ </pre> ==[[Nope.]] interpreter== <pre>
00:18:49 <esolangs> [[Flash shockwave has been discontinued.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162598&oldid=162597 * PJ11 * (+23)
00:20:07 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162599&oldid=162591 * PJ11 * (+47)
00:24:42 <esolangs> [[Flash shockwave has been discontinued.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162600&oldid=162598 * PJ11 * (+196)
00:29:26 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162601&oldid=161583 * PJ11 * (+216)
00:30:33 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162602&oldid=162601 * PJ11 * (+2)
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00:58:07 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162603&oldid=158688 * Dnm * (+403) Added Deadfish in SNOBOL
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02:30:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162604&oldid=162518 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+45) /* T */
02:31:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162605&oldid=162604 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1) /* T */
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02:50:24 <korvo> Hi! How are you? I'm about to take off for dinner, but I have a few minutes if you have questions; most other folks are asleep right now.
03:14:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Boringscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162606 * GluonVelvet * (+121) Created page with "Was looking for my esolang boring chef and this came up. Funny idea for an esolang, though as stated, completely useless."
03:15:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:Boringscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162607&oldid=162606 * GluonVelvet * (+26)
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05:07:13 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162608 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+566) Created page with "GIMME CODE is a programming language where typing stuff in code has no effect All code in GIMME CODE is comments, GIMME CODE will always ask the user for a command, when they the command it will be executed, then a tape (the state space) will be printe
05:08:13 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162609&oldid=162608 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+59)
05:08:38 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162610&oldid=162609 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+4)
05:09:21 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162611&oldid=162496 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+18)
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05:11:23 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162612&oldid=162610 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+29)
05:12:29 <esolangs> [[GIMME CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162613&oldid=162612 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+47)
06:08:33 <esolangs> [[Teleporto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162614&oldid=162595 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+168)
06:09:43 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162615&oldid=162545 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+186)
06:10:27 <esolangs> [[Teleporto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162616&oldid=162614 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+23)
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09:40:01 <esolangs> [[BAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162617&oldid=151341 * Ractangle * (-28) /* Commands */
09:49:07 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162618&oldid=161754 * Ractangle * (+29)
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09:55:52 <esolangs> [[FAGI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162619&oldid=162546 * Lucaz37 * (-89)
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14:08:10 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/test]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162620&oldid=160858 * Pifrited * (+486)
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14:14:55 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162621&oldid=160737 * PJ11 * (+123) /* Implementations */
14:26:49 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162622&oldid=158905 * PJ11 * (+58) /* General languages */
14:28:23 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/collapsible 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162623 * Pifrited * (+1210) .
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15:10:54 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162624&oldid=162615 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+2) /* Teleporto */
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15:21:38 <esolangs> [[Wiredwalls]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162625 * A() * (+1476) Created page with "Wiredwalls is an esolang made by [[user:A()]]. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command !! Instruction |- | * || Turns wire on |- | i || Input |- | - || Wire |- | | || Wire |- | ^ || Branch up |- | v || Branch down |- | > || Branch Right |- | < || Branc
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16:08:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PJ11 * uploaded "[[File:Jsharp.png]]"
16:20:11 <esolangs> [[Wiredwalls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162627&oldid=162625 * A() * (-3) /* Full adder */
16:21:58 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162628 * PJ11 * (+876) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=VBasicDellExp J#}} '''VBasicDellExp J#''', also known as '''J#''',is an esolang created by [[User:PJ11]]. This is its logo. [[File:Jsharp.png|thumb|alt=@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@|JSharp logo]] ==Examples== ===[[Hello, world!]]=== <pre> base J# {
16:22:31 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp J Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162629 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:22:57 <esolangs> [[JSharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162630 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:23:19 <esolangs> [[J Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162631 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:24:05 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162632&oldid=162599 * PJ11 * (+29)
16:24:33 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162633&oldid=162628 * PJ11 * (+41)
16:25:21 <esolangs> [[VBasic DellExp JSharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162634 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:25:34 <esolangs> [[VBasic DellExp J Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162635 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:26:17 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp J]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162636 * PJ11 * (+105) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:26:34 <esolangs> [[VBasic DellExp J]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162637 * PJ11 * (+105) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:27:14 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp J-Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162638 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:27:28 <esolangs> [[VBasic DellExp J-Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162639 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:27:42 <esolangs> [[J-Sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162640 * PJ11 * (+34) Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
16:29:54 <korvo> Trying to figure out if that many redirects is a case of failed branding or oversized ego.
16:45:15 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162641&oldid=158243 * PJ11 * (+111) /* Flash shockwave has been discontinued. */
16:47:01 <esolangs> [[Boring Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162642&oldid=160707 * GluonVelvet * (+78) /* Hello, world! in Boring Chef (no proper indentation) */
16:51:57 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162643&oldid=162633 * PJ11 * (+194)
16:52:18 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162644&oldid=162643 * PJ11 * (+0)
16:54:53 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162645&oldid=162644 * PJ11 * (+3) /* 99 bottles of beer */
16:56:39 <esolangs> [[K0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162646&oldid=162589 * PJ11 * (-10)
17:12:00 <esolangs> [[Template:Font color]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162647 * PJ11 * (+1449) Created page with "<includeonly>{{ safesubst:#if: {{{text|{{{3|}}}}}} | {{ safesubst:#if: {{{link|}}} | {{ safesubst:#ifeq: {{{link|}}} | yes | [[ {{ safesubst:#if:trim | {{{text|{{{3|}}}}}} }}|<span style="background-color:{{ safesubst:#if:trim | {{{bg|{{{2|inherit}
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17:14:52 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Font color]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162648 * PJ11 * (+30) Created page with "I imported this from Wikipedia"
17:15:29 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162649&oldid=162632 * PJ11 * (+136)
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17:48:26 <esolangs> [[Boring Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162650&oldid=162642 * GluonVelvet * (+1063) /* Operations */
17:49:58 <esolangs> [[Boring Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162651&oldid=162650 * GluonVelvet * (-28) /* Hello, world! in Boring Chef */
17:51:11 <esolangs> [[Boring Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162652&oldid=162651 * GluonVelvet * (-3)
18:13:34 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Font color]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162653&oldid=162648 * Corbin * (+474) Thanks for being honest.
18:58:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162654&oldid=162551 * Ilikeundertale * (+212)
18:58:43 <esolangs> [[Subleq extra]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162655 * Ilikeundertale * (+1056) Created page with "=='''subleq_extra'''== '''subleq_extra''' is an esolang based on [[subleq]]. it has, next to subleq, 5 extra instructions to make it more useable (hence the name extra). the instructions are the following: == instructions == * '''SUBLEQ a, b, c''' - Subtrac
19:01:22 <esolangs> [[Subleq extra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162656&oldid=162655 * Ilikeundertale * (+87) /* */
19:01:45 <esolangs> [[Subleq extra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162657&oldid=162656 * Ilikeundertale * (-23) /* subleq_extra */
19:13:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Bulletin Board]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162658&oldid=162585 * Ais523 * (+533) my thoughts
19:14:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:DigitalDetective47/WIP]]": Author request: userspace sandbox page that the user no longer needs
19:30:05 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162659&oldid=162596 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+137)
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19:58:24 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162660&oldid=162659 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+2)
20:04:17 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162661&oldid=162660 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+138)
21:20:30 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11/sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162662 * PJ11 * (+2905) Created page with "Yuij is an esolang which uses few characters. + increases the amount of the current unit by 1. - decreases the amount of the current unit by 1. | prints everything after it till there is another |. Hello World: <pre> |Hello World| </pre> Implementation (made by A
21:21:41 <esolangs> [[Yuij]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162663 * PJ11 * (+2946) Created page with "Yuij is an esolang which uses few characters. + increases the amount of the current unit by 1. - decreases the amount of the current unit by 1. | prints everything after it till there is another |. Hello World: <pre> |Hello World| </pre> Implementation (made by AI, cuz i don'
21:22:08 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162664&oldid=162662 * PJ11 * (-2873) Replaced content with "Will move to [[User:PJ11/Indev]]"
21:22:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PJ11 * moved [[User:PJ11/sandbox]] to [[User:PJ11/InDev]]: Wanna change sandbox to indev page for long esolangs
21:23:26 <esolangs> [[User:PJ11/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162667&oldid=162665 * PJ11 * (+35)
21:26:14 <esolangs> [[Wiredwalls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162668&oldid=162627 * A() * (+267)
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22:10:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162669 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+26) Created page with "Why is this on featured???"
22:12:34 <esolangs> [[52]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162670 * A() * (+1061) Created page with "52 is very bad. Made by [[user:A()]]. It takes place on a 20 by 30 board ==Commands== # 2222 - ! - negate cell # 2522 - ( - start if cell is 1 do: # 5222 - ) - end # 2252 - > - move left (no, i did not make a mistake) # 5252 - < - move right (no, i did not make a mistake)
22:15:16 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162671&oldid=162661 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-29)
22:17:06 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162672&oldid=162671 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+29)
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22:40:07 <Guest58> I tried to go User:[myusernamehere]/Sandbox but it doesn't let me edit it
22:40:33 <Guest58> Where should I draft instead?
22:41:13 <Guest58> nvm i just wasn't logged in
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22:42:44 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162673 * Junkshipp * (+1551) Created page with "Duchathair each function is binary (2-ary), except + syntax no brackets, because arity is constant. like polish notation how to define a function example $ sum y sum x y defining a function like example allows you to use @example too. its a certa
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22:47:29 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162674 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+56) Created page with "Disfunction is a esolang that works using only functions"
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22:48:16 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162675&oldid=162674 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+11)
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23:06:14 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162676&oldid=162675 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+806)
23:14:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create2 * PJ11 * created new account User:WarzokERNST135: I want an alternative account cause of the cooler name
23:17:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162677&oldid=162654 * WarzokERNST135 * (+189) Introducing myself, so I can edit other pages without warns
23:18:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162678&oldid=162677 * WarzokERNST135 * (+17)
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23:59:26 <esolangs> [[Category:Declarative paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162679&oldid=39796 * Corbin * (+1400) Integrate Neel's concept of declarative programming, which is IME the only one that doesn't invite bikeshedding.
00:28:53 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162680&oldid=160443 * Corbin * (+73) Organize the DSLs.
00:50:44 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162681&oldid=162680 * Corbin * (+696) Write out a more detailed history and add references. Imagine my bad George Lucas impression here: "Y'know, history, it, uh, it rhymes."
00:58:14 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162682 * WarzokERNST135 * (+20) Created page with "My esolangs: [[r0q]]"
00:58:56 <esolangs> [[WarzokERNST135]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162683 * WarzokERNST135 * (+33) Redirected page to [[User:WarzokERNST135]]
01:00:09 <esolangs> [[R0q]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162684 * WarzokERNST135 * (+129) Created page with "{{lowercase}}{{WIP}} [[r0q]] is an esolang created by [[WarzokERNST135]]. <br>A list of commands can be seen at [[r0q/Commands]]."
01:07:26 <esolangs> [[R0q/Commands]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162685 * WarzokERNST135 * (+430) Created page with "{{WIP}} Commands: <br><code>Ask (x)'s value and get (y)</code>: This is like set (x) = (y) <br><code>Define a function called (x) with parameters [params] {}</code> This is like func (x)([params){} <br><code>Ask user's input and give it to (x)</code>: This ge
01:07:41 <esolangs> [[R0q/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162686&oldid=162685 * WarzokERNST135 * (+13)
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01:19:27 <esolangs> [[CHR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162687&oldid=93571 * Corbin * (+161) Infobox and categories.
01:20:50 <korvo> I'll be back for more later, but I need dinner first.
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01:52:33 <esolangs> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162688&oldid=161350 * EiroWarn * (-83) ''=''
01:53:39 <esolangs> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162689&oldid=162688 * EiroWarn * (+83) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/162688|162688]] by [[Special:Contributions/EiroWarn|EiroWarn]] ([[User talk:EiroWarn|talk]])
01:54:27 <esolangs> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162690&oldid=162689 * EiroWarn * (-83) Completely eliminated ambiguity regarding the ''='' symbol
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02:08:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162691&oldid=43222 * EiroWarn * (+235) nothing
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02:22:11 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162692&oldid=162676 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+427)
02:23:02 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162693&oldid=162692 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+15)
02:24:48 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162694&oldid=162693 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+132)
02:25:07 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162695&oldid=162694 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+14)
02:25:59 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162696&oldid=162695 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+42)
02:28:42 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162697&oldid=162696 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+110)
02:30:22 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162698&oldid=162697 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+93)
02:31:00 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162699&oldid=162611 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+16)
02:31:09 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162700&oldid=162699 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1)
02:32:18 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162701&oldid=162672 * PkmnQ * (+47) /* Programs */ Minor fixes
02:33:52 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162702&oldid=162698 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+24)
02:57:49 <esolangs> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162703&oldid=162690 * EiroWarn * (-5) Changed the page sorting and added a new interpreter (developed by me)
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04:26:52 <korvo> Nevermind. Maybe I'll do more tomorrow.
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05:57:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162704&oldid=162669 * Ractangle * (+50)
05:58:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162705&oldid=162704 * Ractangle * (+162)
06:15:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162706&oldid=162705 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+31)
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08:07:25 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162707&oldid=162286 * PKMN Trainer * (-19)
08:39:55 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162708&oldid=161222 * Dhzb * (+14)
08:40:47 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162709&oldid=162708 * Dhzb * (+0)
08:42:41 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162710&oldid=162709 * Dhzb * (-3)
08:44:04 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162711 * Dhzb * (+28) Created page with "'''Zowm''' is an [[esolang]]"
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08:51:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Zowm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162712 * AclausckintheMidLife * (+44) Created page with "what am i supposed to create in this esolang"
09:01:15 <fruits4fruits> oh and i created this esolang https://esolangs.org/wiki/Everything_is_h (is the link linking properly)
09:08:15 <int-e> the link looks fine (IRC is plain text; IRC clients often use patterns to figure out what links are and make them clickable. The only trick I associate with that is not putting punctuation right after a link. Even if you do, people will figure it out. :P)
09:17:44 <int-e> It's actually kind of unclear what the semantics are. What's a condition? If it's only `true` or `false` then the language will become rather boring, semantics wise.
09:19:48 <int-e> fruits4fruits: Also, "self-explanatory" -- it isn't because it's unclear that those aren't actually operations, but a mix of tokens and individual characters. The little code generator at the end makes this intent clearer.
09:20:45 <int-e> fruits4fruits: Can you print a " character? Are there variables?
09:21:43 <fruits4fruits> there isnt a way to declare (or call) variables (yet)
09:21:54 <int-e> I mean, you don't have to answer those questions. But we tend to look for semantics more than syntax so they come up quite naturally.
09:22:42 <int-e> Basically, "what can this do" rather than "how hard is it to read the source code"
09:23:31 <int-e> fruits4fruits: Even at the syntax level... are you allowed to use `p r i n t` as a long form of `print`?
09:23:38 <int-e> I'll leave it at that :)
09:25:00 <int-e> (I did decode the `print(source)` and the `while true do print("") end`)
09:55:33 <fruits4fruits> i dont think `p r i n t` can be used as a long form of `print`
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12:08:18 <korvo> fruits4fruits: Where are you headed? I only ask in order to understand.
12:13:51 <esolangs> [[Category:Functional paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162713&oldid=7890 * Corbin * (+1793) Write a fun little blurb covering the history. I used Backus' perspective as it is the motive for modern language design; those of us younger than Miranda were raised wholly on this paper.
12:14:08 <korvo> Hm, should clean up that page on tacit programming too.
12:14:24 <korvo> ...Wait, am I younger than Miranda? I know I'm older than Haskell.
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12:42:15 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162714&oldid=162702 * Hotcrystal0 * (+29) polishing up
12:43:58 <esolangs> [[Pointfree programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162715&oldid=138273 * Corbin * (+324) More-or-less rewrite. I saved as much as I could, including bluelinks.
12:45:41 <esolangs> [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162716&oldid=162382 * Corbin * (+28) /* APL */ We have a main article on the topic.
12:46:17 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162717&oldid=160752 * Hotcrystal0 * (+28)
12:47:40 <esolangs> [[Category:Total]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162718&oldid=160889 * Corbin * (+2) Fix heading to be consistent with other category pages.
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12:59:11 <esolangs> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162719&oldid=154288 * Corbin * (+605) Infobox, bluelinks, references.
13:00:02 <korvo> Really not a fan of the whole "non-esoteric" phrasing. As long as English WP is deletionist, it *doesn't matter* whether a language is "esoteric" enough for the wiki.
13:09:52 <esolangs> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162720&oldid=162187 * Corbin * (+348) Add APL. Trying to keep it dry. Also, awawa?
13:10:25 <korvo> I genuinely believe that this page *can* be gut-bustingly funny. It's pretty good already.
13:21:38 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162721&oldid=162543 * C++DSUCKER * (+99) Small corecrtion to the swapping algorithm
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13:56:43 <esolangs> [[CHR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162722&oldid=162687 * Corbin * (+2239) Words, references, example.
14:03:26 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162723&oldid=162711 * Dhzb * (+129)
14:04:03 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162724&oldid=162723 * Dhzb * (+16)
14:05:08 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162725&oldid=162724 * Dhzb * (+24)
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14:12:54 <esolangs> [[CHR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162726&oldid=162722 * Corbin * (+479) /* Example */ Copy another example from [[when statement]] and make the formatting match.
14:16:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162727&oldid=162712 * Dhzb * (+145)
14:23:57 <esolangs> [[Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162728&oldid=162725 * Dhzb * (+185)
14:25:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Zowm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162729&oldid=162727 * Dhzb * (+104)
14:26:29 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162730 * WarzokERNST135 * (+620) Created page with "{{lowercase}} [[pigs]] is an esolang created by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==Commands== <code>p</code>: Adds 10 to the current unit. <br><code>i</code>: Subtracts 1 from the current unit. <br><code>g</code>: Creates an unit and moves to it. <br><code>s</code>: Turns the cur
14:35:48 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162731&oldid=162730 * WarzokERNST135 * (-20) Fixed error
14:37:23 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162732&oldid=158873 * WarzokERNST135 * (+236) /* pigs */
14:39:47 <esolangs> [[Template:EsolangAbandoned]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162733 * WarzokERNST135 * (+87) Created page with "''This esolang has been abandoned by its owner, and it won't be changed by its owner.''"
14:40:11 <esolangs> [[R0q]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162734&oldid=162684 * WarzokERNST135 * (+13)
14:41:06 <esolangs> [[Template:EsolangAbandoned]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162735&oldid=162733 * WarzokERNST135 * (+16)
14:41:35 <esolangs> [[R0q]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162736&oldid=162734 * WarzokERNST135 * (+83)
14:41:58 <esolangs> [[R0q/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162737&oldid=162686 * WarzokERNST135 * (+96)
14:42:30 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162738&oldid=162682 * WarzokERNST135 * (+29)
14:43:43 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162739&oldid=162714 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+123)
14:44:01 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162740&oldid=162739 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+3)
14:45:28 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162741&oldid=162731 * WarzokERNST135 * (+31)
14:45:48 <esolangs> [[PIGS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162742&oldid=95336 * WarzokERNST135 * (+31)
14:50:10 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162743&oldid=162741 * WarzokERNST135 * (+191)
14:51:08 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162744&oldid=162743 * WarzokERNST135 * (+43) Added categories
14:54:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162745&oldid=162605 * WarzokERNST135 * (+83) /* P */ Added pigs
15:08:38 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162746&oldid=162744 * WarzokERNST135 * (+23)
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15:38:12 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162747 * WarzokERNST135 * (+666) Made the sequel to pigs
15:39:16 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162748&oldid=162747 * WarzokERNST135 * (+10)
15:41:16 <esolangs> [[Pigs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162749&oldid=162746 * WarzokERNST135 * (+18)
15:41:39 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162750&oldid=162748 * WarzokERNST135 * (+18)
16:09:07 <esolangs> [[Shockwave flash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162751 * WarzokERNST135 * (+940) Created page with "[[Shockwave flash]] is an [[esolang]] created by '''[[WarzokERNST135]]'''. ==Commands== <code></code>: Prints "Hello World!" <br><code>\</code>: Escape character for putting double quotes on strings and other characters. <br><code></code>: An IF statement,
16:11:23 <esolangs> [[Shockwave flash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162752&oldid=162751 * WarzokERNST135 * (+150)
16:15:52 <esolangs> [[Shockwave flash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162753&oldid=162752 * WarzokERNST135 * (+139)
16:16:50 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162754&oldid=162738 * WarzokERNST135 * (+41)
16:18:02 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162755&oldid=162754 * WarzokERNST135 * (+110)
16:18:47 <esolangs> [[Template:EsolangAbandoned]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162756&oldid=162735 * WarzokERNST135 * (-10)
16:19:52 <esolangs> [[Template:EsolangAbandoned]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162757&oldid=162756 * WarzokERNST135 * (-5)
16:19:59 <esolangs> [[R0q]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162758&oldid=162736 * WarzokERNST135 * (-78)
16:20:30 <esolangs> [[R0q/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162759&oldid=162737 * WarzokERNST135 * (-83)
16:23:25 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162760&oldid=162732 * WarzokERNST135 * (+43) /* Shockwave flash */
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16:35:59 <esolangs> [[R0q]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162761&oldid=162758 * WarzokERNST135 * (+120)
16:50:26 <esolangs> [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162762&oldid=162645 * WarzokERNST135 * (+54)
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17:03:07 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162763&oldid=162701 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (-2)
17:03:42 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162764&oldid=162763 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1)
17:07:48 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162765&oldid=162740 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+78)
17:08:48 <esolangs> [[Disfunction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162766&oldid=162765 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+4)
17:20:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162767&oldid=162259 * WarzokERNST135 * (+1141) Spam test, i am not a spammer, just seeing how the sandbox acts with spam.
17:20:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162768&oldid=162767 * WarzokERNST135 * (-1141)
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17:49:17 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162769&oldid=157129 * Junkshipp * (+49)
17:50:01 <esolangs> [[Shockwave flash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162770&oldid=162753 * Stkptr * (+141)
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18:11:16 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162771&oldid=162673 * Junkshipp * (+710)
18:11:40 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162772&oldid=162771 * Junkshipp * (-2) /* Example code */
18:38:11 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162773&oldid=162772 * Junkshipp * (+11) /* Example code */
18:38:59 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162774&oldid=162773 * Junkshipp * (+14) /* Whitespace and comments */
18:41:29 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162775&oldid=162774 * Junkshipp * (-34) /* Whitespace and comments */
18:41:56 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162776&oldid=162775 * Junkshipp * (-1) /* Whitespace and comments */
18:42:20 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162777&oldid=162776 * Junkshipp * (-4) /* Whitespace and comments */
18:52:55 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162778&oldid=162750 * WarzokERNST135 * (+0)
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19:42:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit]]": a) redundant to [[brainfuck]] and not really useful on its own, b) the attempts to automatically make it stay in sync are causing it to appear in categories it shouldn't be in
19:46:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162779&oldid=162678 * Ais523 * (-60444) clear down to 1 month of introductions
19:46:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (01-09-2024 to 30-06-2025)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162780 * Ais523 * (+60568) archive I'm not sure why we're archiving the anti-spam feature, but given that there are existing archives we may as well continue for the time being
19:50:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Template:Font color]]": Copyright violation: original template on Wikipedia is not public domain
19:55:26 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162781&oldid=162681 * Ais523 * (+317) [[BuzzFizz]] should be mentioned here, although it's unclear whether it goes in the DSL section or see-also section
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22:41:35 <esolangs> [[No mans fish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162782 * WarzokERNST135 * (+540) Created page with "[[No mans fish]] is an [[esolang]] made by [[WarzokERNST135]] which is derivated from [[Deadfish]]. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! No mans fish !! Meaning !! Deadfish equivalent |- | N || Increment || i |- | O || Decrement || d |- | M || Square || s |
22:44:13 <esolangs> [[No mans fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162783&oldid=162782 * WarzokERNST135 * (+59) Added deadfish interpreter
22:44:31 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162784&oldid=162755 * WarzokERNST135 * (+21)
00:07:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162785 * Hotcrystal0 * (+55) Created page with "'''12''' is an esolang created by [[User:Hotcrystal0]]."
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02:46:04 <esolangs> [[Telifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162786&oldid=162764 * PkmnQ * (+8) /* Programs */
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04:49:47 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162787&oldid=162777 * Junkshipp * (+494)
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09:30:51 <esolangs> [[CFRS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162790&oldid=121109 * Ractangle * (+223) /* Examples */
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12:59:57 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162794&oldid=149238 * WarzokERNST135 * (+136) /* Commands */ Added No mans fish variation
13:08:45 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162795&oldid=162369 * Pifrited * (+125)
13:09:30 <esolangs> [[No mans fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162796&oldid=162783 * WarzokERNST135 * (+128)
13:14:31 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162797&oldid=162794 * WarzokERNST135 * (+52) /* Variants of deadfish */ Added No mans fish
13:18:00 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162798&oldid=162344 * PrySigneToFry * (+116)
13:26:20 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162799&oldid=154994 * WarzokERNST135 * (+43) /* Survey */ Added (piggus)
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13:45:40 <esolangs> [[Quack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162800 * WarzokERNST135 * (+520) Created page with "{{WIP}} [[Quack]] is an [[esolang]] made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==Commands== {{cd|quack}}: Starts the program. <br>{{cd|kcauq}}: Ends the program. <br>{{cd|caukq}}: Starts a loop, until the pointer's value reaches 0. <br>{{cd|kaucq}}: Ends a loop. <br>{{cd|cuaqk}}:
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13:46:05 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162801&oldid=162784 * WarzokERNST135 * (+14)
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13:47:51 <esolangs> [[Titin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162803&oldid=150056 * PrySigneToFry * (+9)
13:54:29 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135/Hydrogen monoxide]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162804 * WarzokERNST135 * (+300) Hydrogen monoxide
13:56:51 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135/Hydrogen monoxide/Cube]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162805 * WarzokERNST135 * (+168) Created page with "How did you get here? ==3== Code some more <pre> if (you found this through the recent changes){ say "ok that's normal" } else { say "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" } </pre>"
13:59:28 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135/]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162806 * WarzokERNST135 * (+80) Redirected page to [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]]
14:02:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162807&oldid=162802 * WarzokERNST135 * (+165) /* Commands */
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14:08:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:/nil]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162809 * WarzokERNST135 * (+235) Created page with "[[User talk:/nil]] is as weird as [[User:/nil]] but it also allows you to create MORE programming languages using this prefix: '''User talk:/nil/(PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE HERE)''' Also this esolang also has the commands of [[User:/nil]]."
14:20:08 <esolangs> [[Template:FontColor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162810 * WarzokERNST135 * (+146) I made this by hand.
14:20:53 <esolangs> [[Template talk:FontColor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162811 * WarzokERNST135 * (+106) Created page with "If you say I took this from Wikipedia, compare it to Wikipedia's version. It's different from this version"
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14:39:23 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162813&oldid=162795 * Pifrited * (+1260)
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15:01:20 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162815&oldid=162787 * Junkshipp * (+746) /* Syntax */
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16:33:09 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162817&oldid=162778 * Corbin * (-22) This is an output-only language, so not TC; fixing categories. A [[trivial brainfuck substitution]] would go in the other direction to inherit BF's TC-ness.
16:33:50 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162818&oldid=162799 * Corbin * (-42) /* Survey */ Remove non-TC language.
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17:28:04 <esolangs> [[Subleq extra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162820&oldid=162657 * Ilikeundertale * (-87) removed nonexistant cagetories i added without knowing they dont exist
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18:05:45 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162822&oldid=162818 * Corbin * (+2392) Start structuring the list to reduce vanity tagging. Combinators are an easy first target.
18:05:59 <korvo> ...I need to actually compute Iota's rank now.
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18:50:52 <esolangs> [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162823&oldid=159787 * Corbin * (+634) /* Semantics */ Hack out a justifiable single-combinator basis; unify grammar somewhat.
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19:02:25 <korvo> I think I can do a bit better. iota of K is precisely S, so ι K x y z = S x y z ought to require rank four. Just gotta hack out the proof tree.
19:40:10 <korvo> Oh, there might be a problem. ι is defined as ι f = f S K. But if S and K are trees made entirely of ι then they don't reduce away. So I'm suddenly very concerned that ι is not actually complete, in the sense that it might not admit the same reduction rules as SK.
19:40:43 <korvo> ...And this affects Fokker's basis too. This is not good. Hopefully I've just misunderstood horribly and everything will make sense after lunch.
19:43:10 <korvo> Barker's definition of Iota seems to require the intermediate reductions to S and K. I'm checking whether an intermediate reduction to I would suffice. Either way, I think that this entire line of historical reasoning might need a re-examination.
19:50:11 <korvo> ...No, it looks like both S and K are required. I'm going to hope that somebody can tell me what I'm doing wrong, and in the meantime, lunch.
20:24:28 <esolangs> [[(piggus)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162824&oldid=162817 * WarzokERNST135 * (+98) /* Turing completeness proof */
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20:44:55 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162826&oldid=162825 * WarzokERNST135 * (+23)
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21:22:52 <esolangs> [[Definition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162828&oldid=150789 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Syntax */ "do" now requires two arguments
21:23:30 <esolangs> [[Definition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162829&oldid=162828 * Ractangle * (-8) /* Truth-machine */
22:00:12 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162830&oldid=162815 * Junkshipp * (+331) /* Calling functions */
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22:14:07 <ais523> korvo: so a while ago, I was implementing SK combinator calculus, except I was implementing it in continuation-passing style
22:14:30 <ais523> and something similar happened: I seemed to need an extra temporary combinator, I couldn't use just S and K (and S1, S2, K1) in the internals
22:16:05 <ais523> eventually I traced that back to S not specifying the evaluation order of its arguments, whereas continuation-passing-style forces an explicit evaluation order: S a b c is (a c) (b c) which, if you're compiling to a VM with an explicit evaluation order, requires you to evaluate one of (a c) or (b c) before the other, and then you need a temporary to represent the *unevaluated* (a c) or (b c) while the other is being evaluated
22:16:25 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if you've observed the same basic phenomenon with iota, just with some other virtual machine property
22:17:19 <ais523> (context for people who haven't seen the notation before: S1, S2, K1 are the names for combinators that apply S or K to insufficiently many arguments, so that they can't be evaluated further without more arguments appearing)
22:17:45 <ais523> e.g. the normal form of S S K is (S2 S K) which is a single combinator, you can think of it as a struct with S in the first field and K in the second
22:18:56 <ais523> (correction: I said "S not specifying the evaluation order of its arguments" but I meant the partially-applied applications inside it, not the argumetns)
22:20:41 <ais523> I try not to say things I don't mean, but sometimes it happens by mistake :-(
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23:06:51 <korvo> ais523: Oh, interesting. That could be related.
23:08:19 <korvo> As I was explaining this to a friend over lunch, I realized that when we build applicative trees, we also introduce an intermediate pseudo-combinator, usually called @, with a rule like @ x y = x y, which reifies application.
23:09:08 <korvo> (Ugh, bad sentence structure, sorry.) An applicative tree has some maintenance associated with it, and we don't always reify that maintenance. Combinatory logic makes the assumption that application will be managed for us but everything else must be explicit.
23:16:05 <korvo> ais523: I think that the S1, S2, K1 conventions are definitely part of what's going on. We're so used to lambda terms having an equivalence with combinators, but we've not taken care to think about how combinators must encode the reduction rules of LC.
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23:21:35 <korvo> ais523: Okay, I think I've got a sketch of a proof. Let I, S, and K be represented by some trees only built with ι. Let ι f x… = f S K x…, with arbitrary extent. Then any "reduction" of ι is going to produce a bigger tree of ι. There's no eliminator.
23:22:26 <korvo> fruits4fruits: Hi! We're doing some maths. Don't worry about it. How are you?
23:24:24 <korvo> ais523: But anyway, now I'm kind of on the other side of the looking glass and I'm thinking of going back and re-reading Fokker's paper as well as Barendregt's notes. At some point we started writing down expressions that aren't obviously combinators, and we didn't catch it because we figured that the failure of simple typing was the only relevant warning.
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00:15:32 <ais523> korvo: now I'm wondering what the smallest basis of combinators is if you include the intermediates needed to evaluate it
00:15:43 <ais523> but it might not be a well-defined problem because combinators like K1 are parameterised
00:18:46 <ais523> …and that, separately, got me thinking about minimizations of Underload – in combinator calculus K is the only way to get rid of information (just like S is the only way to copy it), and in Underload ! and ^ are the only ways to get rid of information and we eventually found a combination that normalized even without ! (but it implemented a counter machine, not lambda calculus)
00:21:45 <ais523> in general we would expect to have both an information-duplicating and information-destroying combinator in a combinator basis – but maybe they could be the same combinator, or maybe destroying information isn't actually necessary (it isn't for TCness, at least, but that might not be the only desirable property)
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00:22:53 <ais523> the standard Underload two-combinator basis is ^ and (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!), which doesn't fit the duplicate/destroy pattern very neatly
00:23:54 <ais523> it's important that (~), a quoted swap, be at the start, and (!!!!!!), a quoted pop-six-elements, be at the end, the order of the others doesn't matter
00:29:21 <ais523> (the basic idea is that if you do the push-everything combinator and then the eval, it pops everything it pushes and the element below, emulating a pop – then you can use a push-everything followed by five pops to get at the swap combinator, and eval that – and that gives you pop, swap, eval, and a command to push all the combinators you might need, so you can just pop and swap/pop the combinators down to the one you need and then eval it)
00:30:14 <ais523> <korvo> An applicative tree has some maintenance associated with it, and we don't always reify that maintenance. Combinatory logic makes the assumption that application will be managed for us but everything else must be explicit. ← I agree with this, I think it's a good summary of what's causing the problem
00:33:15 <ais523> anyway, one interesting thing I learned from that project is that BCKW combinator calculus can be evaluated using a virtual machine that tracks three *normalized* combinator expressions x, y, z and evaluates z(x(y)) – each step in the evaluation can be done by converting a triple (x, y, z) to a triple (x', y', z') that represents the state after one step of evaluation – although it had more intermediate combinators than just B, C, K and W
00:34:16 <ais523> but it was interesting that the evaluation doesn't ever introduce more than two points where you have an application rather than a normalized combinator
00:34:33 <ais523> (you can't do that with SK, because S increases the number of points at which an application occurs)
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01:27:19 <korvo> ais523: Hm, good food for thought, thanks.
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02:04:25 <korvo> ais523: Okay, after thinking a bit, I have two thoughts. Second, I think that Underload has a lot in common with Kerby's combinators when pushed through Kerby's `i` (which isn't the same as Schoenfinkel/Curry's I), see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cammy/Bikeshed#Kerby's_Category
02:05:55 <korvo> First, I think that we can directly consider a fragment of Underload as analogous to combinators which are overapplied; the extra parameters form the stack. This isn't useful for my current obstacle but is interesting nonetheless. For example, we have ~ x y ... = y x ...
02:06:43 <ais523> korvo: I noticed that but in the opposite direction – I was considering an implementation of Underload in combinator calculus that uses overapplied combinators as the stack
02:07:46 <ais523> there are some very esoteric downsides (e.g. you need something like call/cc to interact with the world outside the stack unless you want to consume the whole thing) but I think it's workaroundable
02:08:55 <korvo> ais523: So, I don't have a complete plan, but I noticed that Fokker size seems to interact with rank. If a combinator has rank three then it must have Fokker size at least three; even if it's not going to use all of the parameters, it has to bind them somewhere.
02:09:40 <korvo> We might be able to tighten the bound on the overall size of a complete combinator basis by laying down some minimum requirements. I don't know if that could be used to critique or exclude Iota though.
02:10:23 <ais523> it's arguable that the goal of Iota was to create a single-combinator basis for expressing functions (as opposed to a single-combinator base for evaluating them)
02:10:30 <korvo> Maybe I should actually dig into Barendregt's paper first. I still don't believe that I'm the first with this issue.
02:10:51 <korvo> Right, and maybe the correct nuance is that Iota has non-trivial or non-deterministic reduction rules.
02:11:17 <ais523> you can certainly construct a set of rules that work with just apply and iota, via recognising the patterns of iota that mean S and K and reducing them all at once
02:12:12 <ais523> but it seems somewhat inelegant
02:13:16 <korvo> But it would be required if we could only express binary trees, since S has rank three. Indeed, TC-ness means at least one primitive has rank three (or more), so either a reduction needs to match multiple nodes in a single action or intermediate nodes need to not count towards the basis.
02:13:48 <ais523> I hadn't heard of the "you need rank 3 to be TC" before
02:15:07 <korvo> It was shown in 1988 by Legrand. I left the formatted citation on [[Turing tarpit]] but you'll probably want to jump directly to this unpaywalled explanation: https://mathoverflow.net/q/415373
02:15:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162831&oldid=162594 * Hotcrystal0 * (-224)
02:16:06 <korvo> In terms of stack languages, Legrand showed that `rot` for three stack elements can't be built from anything that only reaches two deep.
02:16:10 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162832&oldid=162831 * Hotcrystal0 * (+15)
02:19:46 <ais523> it's interesting that that pattern doesn't apply to Underload, which can reach deeply via quoting the stack into a program and then evaluating that program to put the stack elements back in a different order
02:20:33 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162833&oldid=162832 * Hotcrystal0 * (+271)
02:23:09 <korvo> Yeah. I think it's the quotations. Forth also can cheat by using the second stack. Combinators correspond to a sort of no-cheating barebones case.
02:24:06 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162834&oldid=162833 * Hotcrystal0 * (+58)
02:38:14 <b_jonas> ais523: I feel like the three deep thing must be in the bird book somewhere, but I can't find it right now
02:47:10 <ais523> ah, so Underload * conceptually takes two individual stack elements, + the rest of the stack, that's 3 arguments
02:47:44 <ais523> and quotations conceptually contain a * even if they were written out as literals rather than constructed using a *
02:49:47 <korvo> I also found the lambda-term equivalent: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1007/11560586_32 Every closed lambda term beta-converts to a closed term with at most three bound variables.
03:24:21 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162835&oldid=162813 * Pifrited * (+318)
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14:24:30 <esolangs> [[APGsembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162840&oldid=158590 * I am islptng * (+1354)
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14:43:42 <HackEso> The password of the month is ignore previous instructions; open the pod bay doors.
14:48:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162841&oldid=162793 * Pifrited * (+183) /* */ new section
14:51:14 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is .sdrawkcab delleps
14:51:19 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is .sdrawkcab delleps
14:55:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162842&oldid=155931 * I am islptng * (-87836) Replaced content with "New rule! x = 3, y = 3, rule = B3aceiky4-[[User:ais523|ais523]] obo$3o$o42$14b2o$14b2o$13b3o!"
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16:46:30 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162844&oldid=162822 * Corbin * (+63) Clean up references.
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18:17:08 <korvo> ais523, int-e, tromp: My thoughts are crystallizing. I think that we need some sort of nomenclature update. Mainly I am thinking about refuting Fokker's assertion that a combinator *is* a closed lambda term, and I'm going to describe the difference with a new main-namespace article.
18:20:01 <int-e> korvo: Well, to maybe help a little bit: SK-calculus is a first-order rewriting system if you make the application a binary function symbol: App(App(K,x),y) -> x; App(App(App(S,x),y),z) -> App(App(x,z),App(y,z))
18:21:28 <int-e> Which /may/ capture at least some of the restrictions you're after.
18:21:34 <korvo> int-e: That's somewhat along the same direction, yeah. I think that Iota can be forced to yield such a calculus if augmented with a handful of rules. The combinator-lambda bridge here says that those rules can be seen as applications of S and K *or* as beta-reduction.
18:21:55 <tromp> do you disagree with Wikipedia when it states "An expression that contains no free variables is said to be closed. Closed lambda expressions are also known as combinators and are equivalent to terms in combinatory logic." ?
18:22:20 <int-e> tromp: No I think korvo is just saying that that's not what he wants.
18:23:50 <int-e> What ais523 described yesterday (keyword was CPS) sounded like he wanted this kind of first-order restriction *plus* only root steps.
18:24:01 <korvo> tromp: Yes. In particular, while there's an arrow from combinators to lambda terms s.t. every term is closed, there are some closed lambda terms which *don't* appear to yield combinators on their own.
18:24:40 <int-e> ("root" meaning the rules have to match whole terms, not subterms)
18:24:54 <korvo> It seems like this hasn't been a problem for most authors because they've assumed that the basis will always include S and K. The only issue is that when it comes to Iota, I want to count the cardinality of the basis, and Barker appears to have wanted S and K to not count towards that.
18:25:39 <int-e> "equivalent to terms in combinatory logic" -- I'd assume that whoever wrote this meant the SKI calculus.
18:25:48 <int-e> which *is* often called combinatory logic.
18:29:29 <korvo> I'm not writing it in the article, but category theory has several natural examples of non-SK bases. Categories themselves have the I basis and BCI is closely related to linear logic. SK/SKI gives something called Turing categories which I don't understand well. So, I think questions about e.g. Iota+I are extremely natural.
18:31:12 <korvo> Er, categories have the BI basis, sorry.
18:35:22 <int-e> Aside: The first-order root-only rewriting formalism captures Turing Machines: Make a binary symbol for each state and a unary symbol for each tape element, plus $ for the end of the tape. Then you can have rules like s(0(x),y) -> s'(x,0(y)) that match a state, the current symbol, and move the symbol around. (this one moves left; moving right requires more rules)
18:35:43 <int-e> operationally this is keeping two stacks for the tape and a state symbol
18:36:08 <int-e> but this isn't a great way to minimize the basis ;-)
18:37:48 <korvo> Well, I am currently seriously wondering whether a single-combinator basis exists. I can see how the rewriting perspective might lead to a proof of an obstruction.
18:40:26 <int-e> It's also so easy to have something that looks like a combinator syntactically but has more than one rule attached to it: https://treecalcul.us/specification/
18:41:39 <int-e> (This kind of thing is why I was careful to say that the first-order restriction isn't the whole story)
18:42:32 <int-e> I know that I've seen the notion of an "applicative rewrite system" inside of first-order rewriting but it's obscure enough that I can't find a reference for that with a search engine. Fun!
18:43:02 <int-e> (And as with many of these terms it's overloaded; it's also used for higher order rewriting.)
18:44:18 <int-e> korvo: Well, I *assume* that that tree calculus does not fit your idea of a combinator and that you want a single rule of a specific form for each combinator instead; notably, the left-hand-side should be the combinator applied to distinct variables.
18:49:13 <int-e> (S and K satisfy an additional requirement where the right-hand sides are just applications of those variables.)
18:49:21 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162845 * Corbin * (+2801) The parts that we all agree upon, I hope.
18:50:48 <korvo> int-e: Right. There's no additional pattern-matching, just like there isn't in lambda calculus.
18:51:44 <korvo> Philosophically, we're trying to imagine extensionality. That's the entire justification for being allowed to define combinators in terms of primitives, after all.
18:52:15 <korvo> Like, in SK, we don't have I. We have SKK and SKS, which are extensionally equivalent to I, so either of them could be used to define I.
18:54:08 <int-e> S(SK) often works too: S(SK)xy = xy
18:55:35 <korvo> Right. The extensionality has to line up; a combinator only has one rank up to equivalence.
19:12:16 <int-e> korvo: Anyway I have the nagging feeling that I've seen a paper vaguely about this, though it may have been as generic as a single-rule first-order rewriting system... but I forgot where.
19:13:23 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162846&oldid=162845 * Corbin * (+525) /* Completeness */ Copy everything from [[Turing tarpit]] that is relevant.
19:13:25 <int-e> AFAIK S is still a candidate for TC-ness (though an unlikely one), but obviously not for combinatorial completeness
19:14:31 <korvo> I had thought about that. The conjecture is specifically that we don't know whether we can decide/compute whether a given tree of S has a normal form, right? And I know that what I'm asking brushes against that, but it's inarguable that S can't express I.
19:14:38 <int-e> (And it's marred by the rule 110 problem... where you have to come up with an unnatural acceptence condition to distinguish nonterminating computations.)
19:15:43 <int-e> There's a paper proof that termination is decidable. The caveat is that it's complicated enough that there may be gaps in it.
19:21:04 <korvo> tromp: ^^ I think that [[closed lambda term]] now has a decent summary of what we all agree upon. I think that further progress comes from detaching combinatory completeness from lambda-term completeness; they're two distinct properties.
19:21:08 <int-e> Oh there's https://www.combinatorprize.org/ which strongly indicates that TC-ness is still open. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890540100928748 is the paper version of the decidability of termination. The thesis used to be online, but I can't find it now?
19:26:38 <korvo> int-e: Maybe thinking about this from a formal-logic perspective is illuminating? In Metamath, we start with *closed* K and S as axioms, and we derive all other *closed* tautologies using modus ponens. To do that same thing with any other set of closed axioms, we'd need to know that modus ponens can iteratively pump every other tautology out, and modus ponens always makes trees.
19:28:04 <korvo> For example, classical Metamath has Meredith's classical axiom https://us.metamath.org/mpeuni/meredith.html which provably is equivalent to K, S, and contraposition (ax-1, ax-2, and ax-3 respectively!)
19:30:18 <korvo> So, *can* we start from closed Iota? On paper, it looks like the answer is no. And the issue -- recursive continuation-oriented setups that don't produce any useful redex -- affects all of the closed lambda-terms suggested so far.
19:32:16 <int-e> There's also tromp's (I think) α = ^^^``20`1^1 = λx y z. x z (y (λ_. z)) with I = ``α`α``α`ααα``α`ααα, K = ``α`αα``````α`ααααααα, S = ```α`α```αα``αα`αα`α`α``αα`αααα
19:33:02 <int-e> (` is Polish notation for abstraction, i.e., Unlambda style)
19:33:20 <int-e> (And ^ for lambda abstraction also comes from the Unlambda context)
19:34:14 <int-e> korvo: it's in the same boat as Iota in that it expands to a term with a lambda. But it's better in the sense that it doesn't contain S, but only K.
19:42:22 <int-e> korvo: it's also quote horrific: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/alpha-s-min.html is an abridged reduction for S... abridged in the sense that irrelevant subterms are replaced by ⊥ as early as possible
19:43:25 <int-e> (you can hover over the start of a subterm to mark subterms which makes this *somewhat* readable)
19:43:46 <korvo> int-e: Firefox asked me whether I'd like that page automatically translated from Greek to English.
19:44:06 <int-e> Well, that's stupid.
19:44:13 <korvo> Hey, at least it didn't crash. That's always a thing Firefox can choose to do.
19:44:45 <tromp> a user called mtve helped find that term
19:44:49 <int-e> (I have that switched off. I'm sure it did briefly anger me before I switched it off. I don't remember when.)
19:45:46 <korvo> tromp: Oh wow. If I'm counting right, that's Fokker size seven!? Congrats to you two.
19:45:54 <int-e> tromp: Yeah I only remember that my contribution back then was these colorful reductions. You had already found those terms.
19:46:39 <tromp> we were looking for minimal basis in terms of size in bits
19:46:41 <int-e> (early 2022 is when I learned about this)
19:55:14 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162847&oldid=159597 * Hotcrystal0 * (-107)
20:01:45 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162848&oldid=162846 * Corbin * (+209) /* Completeness */ Spell out some of the shortest complete terms and add a recently-discovered term by Tromp & mtve.
20:02:09 <korvo> Okay, added that one. Seven is a lot closer to three than I had expected!
20:21:53 <APic> Good old off-by-ones or -multiples 😉
20:35:18 * ski . o O ( it's not a calculus )
20:36:09 * ski . o O ( "Elementary arithmetic as syntactical operations" by Peter Hancock in 2001-11-11 at <https://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/pgh/add.html> )
20:43:01 <int-e> ski: names are always accurate
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20:53:32 <int-e> And now I'm reminded of how annoyed I am about the roles of reification and reflection in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflection
20:53:58 <int-e> (reflections are immaterial, and Haskell's types are erased at runtime, so clearly those are the immaterial ones)
20:58:50 * ski . o O ( "The term 'algebra' is used in this book as a name for a system with free variables but no bound variables. [..] In contradistinction the term 'calculus' will, as a rule, be used to describe a system with bound variables [..] Systems like combinatory logic which contain no variables do not come under either term." <http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/533#comment-7712> )
20:59:30 <ski> could you expand on the "reflections are immaterial" ?
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21:15:27 <int-e> ski: reflections are virtual images (in optics)
21:15:51 <int-e> rather than tangible objects
21:16:43 <ski> ah, and reification materialize, objectify, an immaterial pattern ?
21:18:09 <int-e> to complete that interrupted sentence: of course "optics" as a term has also been co-opted by functional programmers, just to make that statement more confusing.
21:18:36 <ski> i suspect the naming in that package was borrowed from Andrzej Filinski's "Monadic Reflection" papers. so that `reify 6 (\p -> reflect p + reflect p)' there looks similar to the corresponding (say `reify (fn () => reflect () + reflect ())') for environment monad being reflected
21:19:16 <int-e> I imagine (but don't know) that it traces back to Java's notion of reflection.
21:19:21 <ski> iow, what is being reified by `reify' is the environment side-effect
21:20:17 <int-e> And with Java's runtime it's far less clear what's material and what isn't.
21:20:45 <ski> mm. i'm not too sure whether it's related that much to the Java thing
21:22:11 <ski> (hmm .. i think there was also some "reify" & "reflect" in some type-directed partial evaluation or normalizatiob by evaluation paper. not sure about the relative timeline of that, and Filinski)
21:23:32 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162849&oldid=162602 * Ractangle * (-1) /* ALMFCPLIR */ oopz
21:30:57 * ski . o O ( "Representing Monads" in 1994-01 and "Representing Layered Monads" in 1999-01, both by Andrzej Filinski, at <https://hjemmesider.diku.dk/~andrzej/papers/> (code "RM.tar.gz" <https://0x0.st/HOHX.tar.gz>,"RLM.tar.gz" <https://0x0.st/HOH8.tar.gz>) )
21:31:19 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162850&oldid=162592 * Ractangle * (+21) /* ALMFCPLIR */
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22:16:42 <b_jonas> int-e: I hadn't realized that Firefox even has a setting to switch off the offer to translate entirely. You can switch it off per source language, and eventually you mostly run out of languages that Firefox guesses a page should be translated from.
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23:20:22 <ais523> <int-e> What ais523 described yesterday (keyword was CPS) sounded like he wanted this kind of first-order restriction *plus* only root steps. ← I don't normally want that in general, but I did want it for the specific project I was working on
23:21:47 <ais523> because it was basically an interpreter implemented from an operational semantics, and the operational semantics needed to be as simple and clear as possible – and if you're pattern matching or doing reductions not at the root, that is a considerable complication in the semantics
23:23:18 <b_jonas> that kind of makes sense, in that you have to describe how exactly you're doing the pattern matching and replacement, ideally in a deterministic way
23:25:13 <b_jonas> it could be nondeterministic if you want, but you have to be specific in what ways it's allowed to be nondeterministic
23:26:35 <ais523> oh good, Wolfram mentions the problem with evaluation order mattering
23:27:14 <ais523> although doesn't add a rule like "leftmost-outermost" – I think it's up to the submitter to define an evaluation order
23:27:46 <ais523> (Wolfram did point out that if the term normalizes, the evaluation order doesn't matter – but I don't think that helps here, because you'd expect any TC behaviour to be in a non-halting program)
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00:03:09 <int-e> ais523: I'm pretty sure that if I had assumed that it was a general desire I would've used "wants" instead of "wanted" :)
00:03:33 <ais523> right – just wanted to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding
00:08:14 <b_jonas> ais523: Wolfram does this where about what system?
00:08:26 <ais523> b_jonas: proving TCness of S
00:08:56 <b_jonas> doesn't combinator calculus have an order that is TC if any order is TC?
00:10:07 <ais523> b_jonas: so the issue here is that the TCness is expected to not be in the behaviour of the resulting terms, but rather the process of reducing htem
00:11:04 <ais523> a good way to think about it is to think about the rewrite rule for S, S(x)(y)(z) → x(z)(y(z)), as the rule of a rewriting-based esolang rather than the implementation of a function
00:11:20 <b_jonas> oh, if it's S combinator only, that explains why you said the TCness is likely in non-halting programs
00:11:33 <ais523> …and "non-halting-based TCness" is allowed, although (as usual) hard to define
00:12:28 <b_jonas> I mean the first computers that I used didn't have a concept of halting, unless an external person turns off their power switch or unplugs them, so this seems obvious
00:13:06 <ais523> right, the usual definition of halting for such systems is the "tight infinite loop", i.e. an infinite loop that repeats the same sequence of states over and over again, making it obvious that the loop cannot be broken
00:13:27 <ais523> but there are more complicated halting states too
00:14:09 <ais523> my 2,3 Turing machine proof originally used "any of these specific locations on the tape are visited twice", although I eventually found a construction for which halting sent the tape head to the left of its starting point
00:15:00 <b_jonas> no, at least not in the case I'm talking about: those computers all have some form of output device, so instead of halting you'd look at whether they output something specific
00:15:12 <ais523> OK, that's another good definition
00:15:25 <ais523> you could even in theory connect the output device to the power supply
00:15:59 <b_jonas> yes, and all modern computers do that, but that was called "ATX motherboard and ATX-compatible power supply" and an innovation in my lifetime
00:16:03 <ais523> I think some early 386 computers had a way for the microprocessor to ask the keyboard controller to reset the microprocessor
00:16:13 <b_jonas> well the first implementation was called that
00:16:15 <ais523> in order to get back into real mode from protected mode
00:16:35 <ais523> (although later people figured out that you could do it with an intentional triple fault instead)
00:16:45 <b_jonas> ais523: reset, yes, but in a way that the computer can keep some state across that, so it's not really a halt state
00:17:08 <ais523> I think it reset the entire state of the microprocessor, but the state you really care about is mostly in RAM which isn't reset the same way
00:17:28 <b_jonas> it erases some of the state, sure
00:18:05 <b_jonas> it may even erase state in a way that's inconvenient for practical programming
00:19:28 <ais523> I doubt it's that much worse than a context switch
00:19:46 <b_jonas> which may be a feature by the way: there is an advantage to a computer like a Commodore-64 where if no extension cartridge is plugged in then you can make some data in memory survive, but the reset drops you into a BASIC prompt with no automatic way without user interaction to continue the previous program, so you can't make malware that survives intentional resets
00:19:58 <ais523> you might have to spill some of the MSRs and control registers, but in the 386 days I doubt there were all that many of them to spill (there are probably a lot more nowadays)
00:20:30 <b_jonas> it's not even just memory, it could be a casette tape or, if you have more money, floppy, but the point is that the computer doesn't automatically run a program from them after startup, it can just read them if you so ask
00:20:45 <int-e> b_jonas: I believe I found the list of languages in the settings and removed them all. (I checked now and the list is empty.)
00:21:02 <ais523> I haven't used Firefox's translator yet, but I don't mind it asking me
00:21:04 <esolangs> [[Trifack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162851 * Shazun bhasfu * (+845) created page
00:21:41 <int-e> b_jonas: But I also disabled browser.translations.automaticallyPopup which I suspect I did by checking about:config.
00:22:02 <int-e> the important part is that it's turned off ;-)
00:22:50 <esolangs> [[User:Shazun bhasfu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162852&oldid=160119 * Shazun bhasfu * (+1427)
00:23:37 <b_jonas> ais523: I sort of find it insulting, like it makes the assumption of websites of multinational companies that assumes that everyone speaks only one language, they want to see their website in that one language even if it's in a bad translation, and this language depends only on the country, so you have to lie to them that you want the website for "Serbia" or some such to get it to give you info in
00:23:43 <b_jonas> English but still tell you what they're selling in continental Europe
00:24:07 <ais523> b_jonas: often I like to be able to read both the original and a machine translation
00:24:37 <ais523> I don't read any non-English language nearly as well as you read English, but I know the basics of many of them
00:25:04 <b_jonas> ais523: I especially hate Ebay because it started to automatically translate the listings of all third-party sellers. it's one thing to make your website give badly translated info, but it's much more arrogant to translate listings and try to force buyers to buy something without being able to read what the seller offers to them
00:25:10 <ais523> so the offer to translate is potentially useful for me, but only as an offer where I can say "yes this time" or "no this time"
00:25:13 <b_jonas> I mean from a third-party seller
00:25:25 <ais523> a *forced* translation would definitely be bad
00:26:01 <b_jonas> and Ebay seems to be doing that, or at least they're pushing the translation hard, I don't claim that there's no way to fool Ebay to give you the original listing
00:26:24 <ais523> (my learning of foreign languages is almost entirely concerned with reading – I don't normally have a need to write or speak, and listening is more difficult than reading and subtitles are usually available for content that isn't in written form already)
00:28:14 <esolangs> [[Trifack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162853&oldid=162851 * Shazun bhasfu * (+1) /* example programs */
00:29:37 <ais523> that said, I hardly know any Hungarian despite having actually been to Hungary
00:30:14 <ais523> "húzni" and "tolni" were easy to deduce from context, but that's about the extent of what I picked up
00:51:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162854&oldid=162807 * Pifrited * (+938)
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01:11:36 <korvo> fruits4fruits: Yeah, it's funny how a clock is easy to change, but timestamps can be indelible.
01:16:35 * b_jonas searches his box of blue cards for Regress (Mirrodin)
01:37:34 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162855&oldid=162816 * Hotcrystal0 * (+152)
01:37:46 <korvo> Chewing through this combinator S paper. It's not easy. I'm on p9, telling myself that X/Y is read as "a slide of X onto Y" in order to cope. Might be dinner time.
01:53:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162856&oldid=162834 * Hotcrystal0 * (-214)
01:54:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162857&oldid=162856 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
01:55:27 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162858&oldid=162857 * Hotcrystal0 * (+106)
01:59:04 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162859&oldid=162858 * Hotcrystal0 * (+65)
01:59:16 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162860&oldid=162859 * Hotcrystal0 * (+10)
02:03:33 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162861&oldid=162860 * Hotcrystal0 * (+52)
02:39:00 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162862 * I am islptng * (+4043) linguifex is too unstable :(
02:48:09 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162863&oldid=162830 * Junkshipp * (-350) /* Calling functions */
02:52:11 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162864&oldid=162863 * Junkshipp * (-16) /* Whitespace and comments */
03:01:43 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162865&oldid=162862 * I am islptng * (+47) /* Core Words */
03:39:52 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162866&oldid=162864 * Junkshipp * (+587)
03:40:48 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162867&oldid=162866 * Junkshipp * (+0) /* Defining functions */
03:41:00 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162868&oldid=162867 * Junkshipp * (+1) /* Defining functions */
04:20:13 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Idea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162869&oldid=162378 * Pifrited * (+30)
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05:14:42 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162870&oldid=161736 * Corbin * (+944) Clean up example, move it to top, and add section on properties.
05:28:27 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162871&oldid=162844 * Corbin * (-589) /* Minimal combinator bases */ Split into two sections. Iota is not a combinator, but it is a closed lambda term. Fix up refs too.
05:29:48 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162872&oldid=162871 * Corbin * (+0) /* Minimal closed lambda terms */ Fix formatting.
05:30:38 <esolangs> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162873&oldid=102882 * Corbin * (+25) /* See also */ Closed lambda terms.
05:34:09 <esolangs> [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162874&oldid=162823 * Corbin * (-588) Remove speculative/wrong stuff. Sorry about that!
05:43:47 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162875&oldid=162848 * Corbin * (+989) /* Via lambda calculus */ Hack out this section.
05:48:44 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162876&oldid=162875 * Corbin * (+21) /* Via lambda calculus */ Make it clear that x.c is not closed.
06:14:45 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162877&oldid=162870 * Corbin * (+375) /* Combinators */ Integrate above sections, hack out theorems, and remove some non-combinators documented at [[closed lambda term]].
06:17:32 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162878&oldid=162877 * Corbin * (-42) /* BCKW calculus */ Don't spuriously re-define combinators. It's the same K combinator in both systems.
06:18:35 <korvo> Okay, I'm nearly done. I *think* that I haven't accidentally deleted an entire section of related links, but I did shuffle some references.
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08:23:50 <b_jonas> korvo: nice, can you edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload too?
08:27:58 <b_jonas> korvo: hmm, I should figure out a better phrasing for https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pointfree_programming because I think "based on tuples" is an inaccurate description for FP and Amicus. they are based on functions with arbitrary (but fixed at compile time) number of arguments. it's a hypothetical language with no currying, no upvalues, and single argument functions that can be said to be based on tuples,
08:28:04 <b_jonas> though I don't think such a thing exists in pure form and it probably shouldn't.
08:30:45 <b_jonas> Amycus is an exception, because it actually has an apply builtin rather than a call builtin, it's broken in exactly that way
08:32:06 <b_jonas> although I may be saying something wrong about Amicus and Amycus here, I'll have to look more into this
08:37:52 <b_jonas> hmm no, FP is tuple-based too
08:38:10 <b_jonas> I should look into this later
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11:48:09 <HackEso> [U+1F603 SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
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12:03:55 <HackEso> [U+1F626 FROWNING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
12:04:30 <fizzie> "Turn that smile off for a while." Or "make that smile full of guile." (Poetry less than graciously provided by Gemini.)
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12:06:36 <int-e> fizzie: somebody on Bluesky was asking what that emoji is supposed to convey.
12:18:30 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162879&oldid=162868 * Junkshipp * (+73) /* Defining functions */
13:05:08 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162880&oldid=162839 * Hotcrystal0 * (+957)
13:17:18 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162881&oldid=162879 * Junkshipp * (+81) /* Deduction */
13:17:58 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162882&oldid=162881 * Junkshipp * (-17) /* #tc - Transitivity and commutativity */
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13:30:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162883&oldid=162880 * Hotcrystal0 * (+428)
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14:10:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ROHA * New user account
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15:54:19 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162885&oldid=162882 * Junkshipp * (+1) /* Defining functions */
16:35:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162886&oldid=162883 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1687)
16:48:36 <korvo> b_jonas: I don't know how we should say it, but there's an equivalence between multicategories (functions take and return multiple arguments) and monoidal-closed categories (functions take and return single arguments, tuples are values) so we have a choice about how to present them.
16:48:58 <korvo> e.g. Cammy's models are monoidal closed too.
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16:54:00 <korvo> I'll have to think about what to say for Underload, also Unlambda and Mlatu. TBH I think that the existing pages are decent enough; they aren't based on combinatory-logic combinators, but on a specific stack+contatenative paradigm for which we don't really have a good name.
17:13:53 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162887&oldid=162886 * Hotcrystal0 * (+899)
17:14:57 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162888&oldid=162887 * Hotcrystal0 * (+3)
17:22:06 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of zilliondollars]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162889 * WarzokERNST135 * (+533) Created page with "[[99 bottles of zilliondollars]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. It was made to do 99 bottles of beer and many programs. ==Examples== ===[[99 bottles of beer]]=== zillion { encode(ispl).shark(#u!I$*~~"${$$}bottles of beer on the
17:22:35 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162890&oldid=162827 * WarzokERNST135 * (+37)
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17:49:50 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162891&oldid=162885 * Junkshipp * (+251)
17:50:28 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162892&oldid=162891 * Junkshipp * (+1)
18:51:53 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162893&oldid=162878 * Corbin * (+175) /* Properties */ Rank is an invariant.
19:11:56 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162894&oldid=162893 * Corbin * (+559) /* Non-primitives */ Format the table.
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19:24:34 <korvo> b_jonas: Do you have any sources on the non-Smullyan bird names? Several names are missing from their glossary, e.g. B2 and B3 as "Bunting" and "Becard".
19:25:40 <korvo> Perhaps they're mentioned in the book and weren't in the glossary, in which case I can spend a few hours re-reading a classic.
19:27:47 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162895&oldid=162894 * Corbin * (+308) Cracked open my copy of Mockingbird and double-checked the bird names.
19:28:29 <esolangs> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162896&oldid=132131 * Palaiologos * (-6)
19:31:37 <korvo> ...Yep, it's the latter case. For example, p104 of my 2000 paperpack printing names F* as the once-removed finch.
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19:59:18 <b_jonas> korvo: I only have the bird book in translation. In theory I can try to look up if a bird is named, but not what it's named in the original, and I don't really care about the specific names of most birds.
20:00:56 <b_jonas> the list in the appendix doesn't have anything named B2 or B3. that doesn't guarantee that the main text doesn't mention those.
20:01:38 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162897&oldid=162888 * Hotcrystal0 * (+919)
20:03:58 <b_jonas> I, K, KI, S, B, C, W are the important ones, for the rest use an expression made of those, or a lambda expression, or a Haskell name, or an unlambda name etc
20:05:41 <b_jonas> (unlambda's d and c are probably not birds)
20:07:47 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162898&oldid=162895 * Corbin * (-169) /* Table of combinators */ Found most of the unsourced birds; they're in Smullyan, but not in the glossary.
20:08:37 <korvo> b_jonas: No worries. I re-read the relevant sections. Most of the names not in the glossary are part of the big list of compositing operators in Bravura's forest.
20:09:01 <korvo> I don't know what an omega or theta bird is though.
20:12:29 <b_jonas> if you mean Theta, that is listed in the appendex
20:20:13 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162899&oldid=162797 * Ractangle * (-258) /* Commands */ we really don't need more
20:21:57 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162900&oldid=162898 * Corbin * (+406) /* Properties */ Add two more important properties.
20:22:46 <korvo> Oh, curious. This must be a difference between our copies. Mine says that θ x = x (θ x); and calls it "sage bird". That's normally the combinator we call Y, though. So I'm not sure what the θ symbol should be.
20:24:48 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162901&oldid=162897 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1479)
20:27:33 <b_jonas> korvo: yes, that is the definition given in the appendix
20:27:46 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162902&oldid=162892 * Junkshipp * (+21) /* Defining functions */
20:27:59 <b_jonas> so the symbol for it is Theta, the fancy name is sage bird
20:32:26 <korvo> Hm, okay. The definition given on the wiki is Y O, or Y (S I), which appears to have the same behavior as Y? Y (S I) x = S I (Y (S I)) x = I x (Y (S I) x) = x (Y (S I) x)
20:32:56 <korvo> But I don't see it in the big list of Turing bird expressions. Perhaps this is the cost of not eating lunch.
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20:52:57 <esolangs> [[Definition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162903&oldid=162829 * Ractangle * (+3) you can remove the question mark if you can call this as a subset
21:14:19 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162904&oldid=162901 * Hotcrystal0 * (+2127)
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23:20:36 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162905&oldid=162904 * Hotcrystal0 * (+266)
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00:08:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162906&oldid=162905 * Hotcrystal0 * (+861)
00:11:53 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162907&oldid=162900 * Corbin * (+367) Shuffle headers to focus on systems. Also fill in a couple missing rows in the table.
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01:28:00 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162908&oldid=162907 * Corbin * (+1899) Put SKI and BCKW on the same ground as other systems in the literature.
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01:52:14 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162909&oldid=162908 * Corbin * (+696) /* Properties */ Finish listing properties. What they have in common is some sort of obstruction to completeness.
01:58:05 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162910&oldid=162902 * Junkshipp * (-33) /* #df - Definitions of functions */
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02:38:37 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162911&oldid=162909 * Corbin * (+2819) Add a detailed section on completeness and related concepts.
03:12:20 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162912&oldid=162872 * Corbin * (+436) /* Minimal combinator bases */ Use theorems from [[combinatory logic]] to carefully circumscribe the possibility of a singleton basis.
03:13:37 <korvo> b_jonas: Okay, I *think* I've patched up all of the spots where I was spouting wrongness. Certainly I think [[Iota]] is cleaned up already.
03:14:34 <korvo> I suppose that a single-combinator basis is still possible. But it can't be Iota, which has rank one and is linear in that sole argument. We gotta treat combinators and closed lambda terms as different things.
03:15:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thomas * New user account
03:22:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162913&oldid=162779 * Thomas * (+213) Introducing my self.
03:37:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hibiscus * New user account
03:43:54 <korvo> int-e: I never did find a way to cite "The Combinator S", but thank you for linking it anyway. I enjoyed it even though it was not easy or fun.
03:48:32 <korvo> ...Well, "fun" is relative, right?
03:49:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162914&oldid=162913 * Hibiscus * (+172)
03:59:09 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162915&oldid=162884 * Pifrited * (-595)
04:00:09 <esolangs> [[LayerCake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162916&oldid=156185 * HellsfargoMC * (+4) /* Fibonacci.lc: */ corrected programming mistake
05:05:04 <esolangs> [[User made]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162917 * Helpeesl * (+335) This is the 4th esolang experiment by me guys, will come back August 6th 2026 to make the page
05:07:24 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162918 * Thomas * (+5010) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=GnomeLang |paradigms=Concurrent,Declarative,Imperative,Spatial |author=[[User:Thomas]] |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dimensions=theoretically infinite-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|T
05:08:36 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162919&oldid=162918 * Thomas * (-1)
05:11:15 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162920&oldid=162919 * Thomas * (+124)
05:11:50 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162921&oldid=162920 * Thomas * (-110)
05:13:05 <esolangs> [[User:Thomas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162922 * Thomas * (+56) Created page with "== Languages I take responsibility for == *[[GnomeLang]]"
05:14:34 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162923&oldid=162921 * Thomas * (+1)
05:15:24 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162924&oldid=162923 * Thomas * (+15)
05:15:47 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162925&oldid=162924 * Thomas * (+1)
05:19:08 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162926&oldid=162745 * Thomas * (+16)
05:21:59 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162927&oldid=162925 * Thomas * (+14)
05:23:35 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162928&oldid=162927 * Thomas * (-2)
05:25:32 <esolangs> [[User:Thomas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162929&oldid=162922 * Thomas * (+28)
05:26:49 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162930&oldid=162928 * Thomas * (+23) Replaced spawn with construct, and removed dwarf adjacent typos
05:39:29 <esolangs> [[User:Thomas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162931&oldid=162929 * Thomas * (-28)
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06:47:41 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162932&oldid=162930 * Thomas * (+22)
06:48:07 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162933&oldid=162932 * Thomas * (-1)
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06:49:41 <esolangs> [[User:.t/GravelContainer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162934 * .t * (+108) Created page with "{{{2|<div style="border-width:1px;border-color:#888888;border-style:solid;padding:8px;">Javascript!</div>}}}"
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06:56:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * !!!!! * New user account
07:00:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162935&oldid=162914 * !!!!! * (+133)
07:00:56 <esolangs> [[User:!!!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162936 * !!!!! * (+15) Created page with "This is a test."
07:01:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:!!!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162937 * !!!!! * (+15) Created page with "This is a test."
07:06:20 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162938&oldid=162933 * Thomas * (+67)
07:09:13 <esolangs> [[Disan Count Pesudocode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162939&oldid=136970 * Ractangle * (-20) /* Disan Count */
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07:44:51 <esolangs> [[Textile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162941&oldid=134001 * Dtp09 * (-37) rephrased some explanations, changed "replacements" to "macros", added spaces after code example comments, other minor edits
07:45:23 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162942&oldid=162940 * Thomas * (+112)
07:48:47 <esolangs> [[User:Dtp09]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162943&oldid=152178 * Dtp09 * (-59)
08:10:04 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162944&oldid=162942 * Thomas * (-221)
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09:19:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:ESOPUNK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162946 * L4.m2 * (+212) Created page with "== Turing Complete == It should simulate Counter machine by Godel with if (x7 == 0) <=> MODI X 7 T ++x7 <=> MULI X 7 X --x7 <=> DIVI X 7 X Not sure if it act everything when introducing (infinite) IO, though"
09:27:32 <esolangs> [[GRPE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162947&oldid=161336 * Bil-joodusstudios * (+0) The source code for the interpreter I made was created in 2022 and so were the first programs and thus the date 2023 was inaccurate
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11:14:38 <ais523> <b_jonas> I, K, KI, S, B, C, W are the important ones ← also «flip id» – that's one of the few that's important enough that I special-cased it in my combinator evaluator
11:15:02 <ais523> according to the list on the wiki, it's called "thrush"
11:15:16 <ais523> although I don't really like using bird names, it's just confusing
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11:27:07 <ais523> ah right, this reminds me: instead of BCKW you can use BTKW, C is B (T T) (B B (B (T B) (B B T)))
11:27:32 <ais523> although this is the sort of trick that somewhat reminds me of Underload without ~
11:28:48 <ais523> last time I looked at this, I suspected that this would be TC even without K (via the bit-bucked method), although I didn't come up with a workable proof
11:29:41 <ais523> …and now it crosses my mind that ~ and ! are the two combinators you can simple-translate out of Underload
11:30:05 <ais523> obviously they aren't *exact* matches for C and K but there are nonetheless obvious similarities
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11:32:11 <ais523> …and the obvious name for this basis is "BTW"
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11:46:53 <Vorpal> hi, according to client logs I did briefly visit here in 2023
11:47:58 <ais523> nowadays we chat somewhat asynchronously via the logs, usually – we've been talking about combinators over the past few days
11:48:38 <Vorpal> not that much into esolangs these days, don't have much time for it.
11:49:21 <ais523> fair enough – I've been less into it than I used to be, I think
11:49:48 <ais523> I've been working more on practical languages, which is a lot more difficult to produce results with quickly
11:49:55 <ais523> but maybe more useful when you do
11:50:26 <Vorpal> yeah, doing things that are useful and feel like they are worth your time, it gets more important the older you get I think
11:50:49 <ais523> oddly, the esolangs results feel more useful sometimes
11:51:01 <ais523> …but a smaller audience
11:52:27 <ais523> I enjoyed golfing down the TCness construction for Magic: the Gathering – after a while it turned into working out what could easily be constructed and then trying to prove it TC
11:54:14 <ais523> (also, I guess the way that I use Rust is on the verge of turning it into an esolang – lots of trying to prove things with the type system)
11:55:38 <Vorpal> right, while I build useful cli programs mostly
11:55:49 <Vorpal> and am experimenting with rust on a ESP32
11:56:49 <Vorpal> unfortunately, I'm getting the sort of issues that normal rust protects against. I'm trying to do DMA and getting hardware exceptions
11:57:20 <Vorpal> I want to do a sound visualiser (with a I2S microphone)
11:57:45 <ais523> I've programmed both microcontrollers and DSPs in the past, but it was a long time ago now
11:58:18 <ais523> the microcontrollers had around 100 bytes of RAM (+ a few kilobytes of nonwritable program memory)
11:58:47 <Vorpal> The rust abstractions are interesting, using lots of typestate patterns and ownership for peripherals
11:58:51 <ais523> or, well, you could write it in hardware, just not in software
11:59:45 <Vorpal> the ESP32 dev board I use has like ~500 kB usable SRAM, 4 MB flash and 8 MB external DRAM
11:59:57 <ais523> I feel like Rust doesn't do typestate properly at the moment (thus the interest in strong updates), but it should work if you're managing global variables (which hardware resources effectively are)
12:00:35 <ais523> I wonder whether microcontrollers are more powerful nowadays; my guess is "more powerful microcontrollers exist but the very small ones still exist because they're cheap and many products don't need much power"
12:00:44 <ais523> computational power, that is, not electrical power
12:00:54 <ais523> although I guess the two may be correlated!
12:01:17 <Vorpal> Yeah the ESP32 is on the upper end for sure. But most micros used for new projects are 32-bit these days. Mostly ARM and RISCV
12:01:30 <Vorpal> I doubt people do *new* projects on AVR for example
12:03:59 <ais523> I think I stopped working on this before AVR became popular
12:04:25 <Vorpal> yeah I don't even know what came before that. Old Intel and Motorola parts iirc?
12:04:29 <ais523> but it was nice being so close to the hardware
12:04:39 <ais523> you could just write to memory to change the voltage on pins
12:04:47 <Vorpal> and the Microchip PIC series, right
12:04:52 <ais523> right, I was using PICs
12:05:36 <ais523> they were (are?) basically a transport-triggered architecture for all the hardware features and for memory addressing, but had arithmetic instructions (including RMW) in addition to just mov
12:05:43 <Vorpal> ais523: well yeah, hardware peripherals are usually memory mapped. Though some architectures have a separate IO bus (including x86, but that is only used for ISA, anything more modern is memory mapped instead)
12:08:18 <Vorpal> but I have to say, I have moved towards systems/low level programming in general. Not that interested in abstract language design. For me, the most important question in language design: how is this useful for the practitioner?
12:08:42 <ais523> my esolangs have tended towards useful too – although primarily in terms of being useful for proving things with
12:09:01 <Vorpal> you went into academia, right?
12:09:06 <ais523> The Waterfall Model is probably my biggest esolang breakthrough since Underload (or maybe more so, because other people would have discovered Underload if I hadn't)
12:09:24 <ais523> I got a PhD, did a postdoc, then covid happened and I was ill for a few years
12:09:53 <ais523> and I still go through frequent periods of not being able to concentrate on anything, which is making it difficult to get a job
12:11:21 <ais523> employers probably don't want employees who frequently and randomly do nothing for a 3-4 weeks at a time (it is improving, though – a couple of years ago it was measured in months rather than weeks)
12:11:47 <Vorpal> still I think that shows the point really. "The Waterfall Model" looks nice, but I don't see how it is applicable to solving "real world problems" (however you define that). That doesn't mean it isn't valuable as research, but it doesn't really interest me much. It is the difference between pure and applied mathematics. I found out that I'm *way* over on the applied side.
12:12:06 <ais523> right, these aren't real-world problems but mathematical problems
12:12:16 <ais523> it cut down the time for the typical TCness proof from a few days to a few mintues
12:12:31 <ais523> …and started to make some of the more difficult TCness proofs viable
12:13:58 <Vorpal> The most important theorem for me out of TCness and such has been Rice's theorem. Because it lets me say "this problem is one that cannot actually be solved (or at least not without false positives / negatives)". That result is in a sense a very applied one.
12:14:23 <ais523> I feel like Turing tarpits tend to be fundamentally either queue-based or counter-based; tag systems handle the queue-based languages, MInsky machines and TWM handle the counter-based languages depending on whether their problems are with data storage or control flow
12:14:48 <ais523> right, we know that there are problems about programming that we can't have general solutions to
12:14:53 <Vorpal> I did do a esolang thing a few years ago, as a project to learn rust: https://github.com/VorpalBlade/brainoxide (ignore recent updates, it is just dependabot)
12:15:42 <Vorpal> as it was my first rust thing, the code is for sure non-idomatic. Also there are several optimisations that aren't implemented because I got the internal graph representation wrong.
12:15:53 <Vorpal> (But the goal was learning rust, so who cares)
12:16:30 <ais523> I tried to write an SSA optimiser for counter machines ages ago, but got lost – the internal representation was wrong I think
12:16:38 <Vorpal> (also I used it to experiment with github actions before applying those things on more important projects)
12:16:49 <ais523> but it should have been possible to adapt it to BF to some extent
12:17:15 <ais523> also I hadn't realised that keeping up with dependencies was so difficult
12:17:25 <ais523> I try to avoid those as much as possible nowadays
12:17:39 <Vorpal> the funny thing is that an optimising BF compiler is actually more of a *decompiler*. Because you are trying to recover higher level structure out of a incredibly low level thing.
12:17:41 <ais523> my latest big Rust project has involved reimplementing references
12:18:01 <Vorpal> [14:17] <ais523> also I hadn't realised that keeping up with dependencies was so difficult <-- that has not been my experience at all. Not in rust at least.
12:18:05 <ais523> and when you aren't using the standard & and &mut, existing libraries don't work very well
12:18:32 <ais523> I guess the dependency bumps probably aren't required for it to continue working
12:19:09 <Vorpal> indeed, it also has a test suite, and fuzz testing
12:19:13 <ais523> although, it's surprising how often a crater run turns up "this obviously useless and wrong construct is used in an old version of some really widely used library"
12:19:40 <ais523> which means that Rust projects bitrot faster than you would expect if you don't keep the dependencies up to date
12:20:55 <Vorpal> https://github.com/VorpalBlade/chezmoi_modify_manager https://github.com/VorpalBlade/keyboard-backlightd and https://github.com/VorpalBlade/filkoll https://github.com/VorpalBlade/paketkoll are *useful* things I have written in rust. It is an amazing language for these sort of tools.
12:21:58 <Vorpal> at least three of them I have gotten issue reports from other people, so some people are at least using them
12:22:04 <Vorpal> (or tried to use them)
12:22:17 <ais523> I guess whether I write useful things in Rust depends on whether you consider esolang interpreters useful :-D
12:22:30 <ais523> (although I am working on larger useful projects too – it just takes a lot longer, especially with all the time not working)
12:23:41 <Vorpal> I especially like what I did in filkoll, with zero-copy deserialisation and mmap.
12:24:10 <Vorpal> I even wrote a blog post about it, which might be of interest if you are into squeezing every bit of performance from a program: https://vorpal.se/posts/2025/mar/25/filkoll-the-fastest-command-not-found-handler/
12:24:16 <ais523> hmm… IIRC mmap is very hard to use safely in Rust
12:24:22 <Vorpal> the blog goes into that
12:24:27 <ais523> because if you have any reference to any byte in the file, and someone changes the file…
12:24:39 <ais523> are you using the "array of UnsafeCell" method?
12:25:07 <ais523> I will do at some point, but it takes a while
12:25:20 <Vorpal> I'm ensuring that the file isn't changed. I define what my thread model is.
12:25:37 <ais523> I've been wondering about trying to use Linux leases to make mmap safe with Rust, but it's very hard to define because the safety becomes based on real-world time
12:27:19 <Vorpal> ais523: so the TLDR is that the file is written in one go by a cron job / systemd timer. So I do the temp file and move into place to atomically replace the file trick. And since this is done by root, and the reading phase of the program is normally run by not root, I consider root trusted. If you have malicious software writing those files you have way bigger issues.
12:28:02 <ais523> (a lease allows you to get a definitive answer to "will this file change in the next 10 seconds?", which Linux implements via delaying writes by 10 seconds while there is an active lease)
12:28:23 <ais523> (although, you're supposed to drop the lease if the kernel tells you that someone wants to write)
12:28:35 <ais523> Vorpal: right – you're considering the file to be an extension of the program
12:28:59 <Vorpal> I use the rkyv crate for actual zero-copy deserialisation of that data, and it too has safety requirements, about matching data structures being used. So I hash all of that and put it in a header, and if the hash doesn't match I don't load the file but print an error about regenerating the files
12:28:59 <ais523> I think that isn't a general solution, but it works here
12:29:34 <Vorpal> (I also hash Cargo.lock into that)
12:30:01 <Vorpal> ais523: it is a cache file effectively, so for that case it works.
12:30:24 <Vorpal> if you want to do mmap IPC or something like that, I agree: you have way more complex problems to deal with
12:30:44 <Vorpal> and keeping it all as raw pointers and doing volatile isn't attractive either
12:31:22 <Vorpal> Oh and I have also gotten into 3D printing and figuring out way to use as little plastic as possible while doing so.
12:31:31 <Vorpal> (my most recent blog post is on that)
12:31:48 <ais523> "In particular it wouldn’t be safe to *not* do UTF-8 validation: It is possible to mix up handles from different interners." ← this is a major hole in Rust and the one that I'm currently spending most effort on trying to fix
12:32:05 <ais523> specifically, the "mix up handles from different interners" part of it
12:32:44 <Vorpal> So, branded lifetimes (ghost cell etc) could solve that, but awkwardly. But it absolutely doesn't work across serialisation and deserialisation.
12:32:46 <ais523> I wrote a blog post about it last year: http://ais523.me.uk/blog/scoped-generics.html
12:33:19 <ais523> although it's mostly about making brands a) easier to use and b) able to transmit data across trait boundaries, even if the traits don't know about the data
12:33:51 <Vorpal> ais523: yeah, but I bet whatever solution you think of won't apply across serialisation and deserialisation, especially with rkyv which has a derive macro that generates separate types for deserialization that uses relative pointers
12:34:06 <ais523> I think it's compatible with serialisation (you make the deserialisation produce the appropriate brand at the same time as it reads the data), but it may not be compatible with existing deserialisation libraries
12:34:09 <Vorpal> (that is the only way to make it *zero copy*
12:35:07 <Vorpal> ais523: deserialisation can't really do anything if you want it to be zero-copy. It has to be the equivalent of a std::mem::transmute basically.
12:35:12 <ais523> the thing about brands is that they're ZSTs, so you can add them to existing data structures in a zero-copy way
12:35:24 <ais523> you can transmute () into a ZST
12:35:47 <ais523> the difficult part is proving that you have the right one, but if you're using unsafe code that doesn't matter
12:36:15 <ais523> or, well, it's still difficult but it doesn't matter *to Rust*, just when you're writing the code
12:36:35 <Vorpal> I could use unsafe code to skip the UTF-8 validation. It could be *sound* if I use it right. It just wouldn't be *safe*
12:37:22 <ais523> right – so the approach would be "having this brand on offset X means that data structure Y has valid UTF-8 starting from offset X"
12:37:47 <Vorpal> sounds about right, yes
12:37:55 <ais523> and as long as you serialise the list of offsets and the string dump, you can deserialise into some thing with the same branding structure, as long as you trust the bytes on disk
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12:38:06 <ais523> * as long as you serialise them together
12:38:18 <Vorpal> (I saw a blog the other day about lifetime brands in rust, I need to get around to reading it)
12:38:31 <ais523> I haven't read it yet, although I did write about it in my own blog post
12:38:38 <Vorpal> (but I was on a road trip for the past week, didn't have time)
12:38:48 <Vorpal> https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1mhkvrs/the_generativity_pattern_in_rust/
12:38:53 <ais523> I didn't consider it a priority for reading because I thought I knew about the topic already, but maybe I should in case it says something I don't know
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12:39:03 <Vorpal> haven't had time to read the associated blog yet
12:39:35 <Vorpal> I just knows the basics of it and filed it as "oh, that is neat, I don't have any immediate uses for this"
12:40:44 <ais523> hmm, I think my opinion on "unsafe" is "I will use this if I have to, but I would prefer if I can get whatever I'm doing into the standard library so that I don't have to"
12:40:46 <Vorpal> but apparently there is more ways to do it than the scoped closure given an invariant lifetime
12:40:52 <Vorpal> so I should probably read it
12:41:50 <Vorpal> ais523: for sure. The question of motivation for unsafe becomes tricky when it becomes a performance question. E.g. I can save x% of the total runtime of my tool if I use unsafe. Is it worth it?
12:42:17 <ais523> oh, I work backwards – start with the theoretical performance limit and then see what the obstacles to reaching it are
12:43:06 <Vorpal> huh, I write code that functions first, and then see where the bottlenecks are, and try to optimise it. I found perf, bpf etc to be surprisingly fun and enjoyable.
12:43:08 <ais523> that's how I came up with the 55GiB/s fizzbuzz
12:43:30 <Vorpal> oh right, I remember that, yes
12:43:55 <Vorpal> I did read the code, well part of it, I think I got lost somewhere around how the custom bytecode VM supposedly worked.
12:43:59 <ais523> I've done the whole "looking for bottlenecks" thing but it's annoying
12:45:03 <Vorpal> I found it enjoyable. And as a bonus you can be solving a practical problem a customer is having right now. That feels nice.
12:45:33 <ais523> I came up with a good way to explain the VM: you can think of FizzBuzz as a sequence of instructions that output one byte each (at least if you know the number of digits in the numbers you're printing), that fact isn't useful if you just compile the instructions, but if you *interpret* the instructions you then have a SIMD situation (because it's the same interpreter for every instruction) and so you can vectorise
12:45:57 <Vorpal> Did something like that just before the vacation. The customer was running the program on a way less powerful machine than we used. So what we saw as 12-20% CPU load, they saw as 100%+ CPU load.
12:46:43 <Vorpal> Managed to cut the CPU usage in more than half there, plus I learned some new tools (tracy in particular, just sampling profiling wasn't enough).
12:47:55 <Vorpal> And I left my colleagues with a list of things they should do to optimise it further (in other parts of the system)
12:48:49 <ais523> I guess I'm out of practice with actual practical programming – I am mostly trying to fix the theory and hoping it leads to improvements in the practice later on
12:49:35 <ais523> my last attempt to write a practical program didn't work out very well
12:50:03 <Vorpal> I really can't find any energy or motivation for writing something that *doesn't* solve a practical problem any more.
12:50:26 <Vorpal> I got burnout a few years ago, and in general even after that I have less energy than I used to
12:51:09 <ais523> (also I spent ages trying to work out whether the "take the dot product of your key and the input" was a valid randomized hash function – eventually I figured out that it is only good if your aim is to have 0 collisions, because an attacker can increase the chance of a large multi-collision to unacceptably large values even though they can't influence the chance of there being any collisions at all)
12:52:22 <Vorpal> hm, hash functions is a bit of a problem. For most software I write, I would prefer a faster but non-DOS resitant hash for things like hashmaps
12:52:23 <ais523> I guess the way I see it is, I could either try to solve one practical problem and get frustrated with the tools I'm working with, or I could try to make a million practical problems all a little easier to solve
12:52:38 <Vorpal> because I don't have untrusted input in my threat model. They are cli programs!
12:53:00 <Vorpal> what I wish is for rust / cargo to get the build-std support in proper shape
12:53:10 <ais523> I generally have untrusted input in my threat model for CLI programs, but the threat is usually "the user accidentally renames or edits a file while the CLI is working on it"
12:53:22 <ais523> -Z build-std is seriously being worked on, as far as I can tell
12:53:31 <Vorpal> then we could have std feature flags for things like DOS resistant hash functions, or normal vs priority inheritance mutxes
12:53:35 <ais523> …although I guess it wouldn't be -Z any more once it's been finishd
12:54:02 <ais523> I think the normal plural is "mutexes", but as with any word ending in x it is likely to be pluralised in some interesting ways
12:54:21 <Vorpal> man, let me tell you, hard real time Linux (which I do for my day job) doesn't get the love it deserve further up the stack in programming languages
12:54:42 <Vorpal> English spelling is... interesting
12:54:45 <ais523> in this case "ex" is an abbreviation for "exclusino" so I think it pluralises using the same basic ruleset that "exclusion" uses
12:55:28 <ais523> hard realtime is one of those things where you really want the programming language to help
12:55:37 <ais523> some sort of resource system, perhaps
12:56:03 <ais523> oddly, from a mathematical point of view, hard realtime is easier to work with than non-hard-realtime concurrency
12:56:17 <ais523> (I did some work on that in my PhD)
12:56:32 <ais523> you don't have to worry about all the possible orderings of events if you know exactly how much time everything is taking
12:56:32 <Vorpal> both C++ and Rust std mutexes doesn't do Priority Inheritance (PI). Which is a thing you really want. The underlying pthread mutex and/or futex does support it optionally. But you need to use/enable that variant.
12:56:45 <ais523> (although I get a suspicion that modern OSes and programs aren't quite *that* hard realtime)
12:56:57 <Vorpal> ais523: that is only true for single core
12:57:29 <ais523> well, mathematically you can assume the cores run lockstep, but that would need a processor with very predictable timings
12:57:32 <Vorpal> as soon as you do hard RT on multicore (and don't pin *everything*) the exact solutions fall apart
12:57:55 <ais523> a cluster of 6502s would be able to do it just fine (but the performance would be terrible)
12:58:32 <Vorpal> and let me tell you: no one in industry is actually doing the academic mathematical approaches to hard realtime. I forget what those diagrams with dots moving around were even called.
12:58:33 <ais523> I wonder what the correct term for "we have hard time limits but our processor doesn't do things in a predictable time" is – it's somewhere between hard and soft realtime
12:58:49 <ais523> Vorpal: oh, I'm not at all surprised, at least for software approaches
12:58:54 <ais523> I bet the people synthesising hardware are doing it though
12:59:05 <Vorpal> (this might not be true in things like flight control software, which has more stringent requirements)
13:00:45 <ais523> one of the trickiest situations is "things that give an unpredictable performance improvement"
13:00:49 <ais523> like branch predictors and L1 caches
13:00:49 <Vorpal> Thankfully, the things I work on (while safety critical in that humans could be in danger) are slow and are safe if they just stop. So the solution is "we have emergency stop buttons everywhere, which cut the actuations electrically)
13:01:18 <ais523> the program clearly works better with them involved – but it almost feels like, for hard realtime, you might not be able to rely on them helping at all
13:02:28 <ais523> I guess you can rely on the OS to not pre-empt you too much, and just hope that the cache and branch predictor act sensibly in that case
13:02:41 <Vorpal> it depends on your timing requirements. Hard realtime is about predictability. If your requirements is on the order of tens of ms, realtime linux is fine.
13:03:17 <ais523> but I would be worrying about pathological cases like "all the pointers in the program were allocated with the same values in the middle bits, causing the cache performance to massively degrade"
13:03:32 <Vorpal> If you need µs to single digit ms, you should consider a microcontroller. If you need ns you should look at FPGAs or digital electronics. If you need less than that look at analog electronics
13:04:06 <Vorpal> that is a very rough categorisation, but it is pretty accurate I feel.
13:05:46 <ais523> in the run-up to my PhD, I was working on algorithms designed for use with clockless digital electronics, i.e. they run as fast as the wires transmit information (the limiting factor there is the delay on your pulse reshapers making your pulses have nice square edges)
13:05:56 <ais523> although we didn't actually implement it on a platform like that, we used a clock for testing
13:05:56 <Vorpal> Most of what I do is on the 10s of ms range. So realtime Linux works fine. And we push the shorter time range things to connected microcontrollers (that do the actual electical IO)
13:07:01 <ais523> right – I guess my concern is more about what could happen in theory than anything
13:07:18 <ais523> worst-case performance is often an awful lot worse than average-case performance
13:07:19 <Vorpal> I have heard of clockless designs, but I don't really know anything about them. I have a vague memory of someone building a clockless (MIPS?) CPU ages ago as a research projects.
13:07:43 <ais523> what if we happen to hit the miniscule chance that all our data hashes to the same value and the hash table becomes quadratic, that sort of thing
13:08:30 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162948&oldid=162906 * Hotcrystal0 * (+119)
13:08:55 <ais523> Wikipedia makes a distinction between hard real-time (where a deadline miss is completely unacceptable) and firm real-time (where it's just really bad and you want to minimize the probability, but where if the probability is low enough you'd prefer to pay the cost of very rare deadline misses rather than the cost of coding to worst-case rather than average-case)
13:10:02 <Vorpal> ais523: indeed. But the things we control are all *big* hydraulics. And the inertia in that dwarfs anything else in the system. Now, if you were controlling an agile robot (Boston dynamics sort of thing) that would be a different matter, you would still have a linux system doing the high level planning, but actual PID loops wound be done in microcontrollers. And we do some of that too. Just less of it than most.
13:10:52 <Vorpal> ais523: I would put things like live sound processing into "firm real-time". You don't want an audio glitch during your rock concert. But no one will die from it.
13:10:55 <ais523> it strikes me that if you have a safe default action (e.g. stopping) you can use that as an automatic reaction to an imminent deadline miss
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13:11:10 <fizzie> Vorpal's presence reminded me that fungot had probably been offline for, like, months at this point.
13:11:11 <fungot> fizzie: the debugger?' navigate stack frames with c-p/ c-n.
13:11:26 <ais523> ooh, an Emacs controls debugger
13:11:41 <fizzie> I'm sure it's just an Emacs frontend to GDB or something.
13:11:44 <Vorpal> fizzie: I guess I have pictures from my road trip? I haven't uploaded anything. I don't even know where I would upload things these days
13:12:32 <ais523> fwiw I consider audio to be soft real-time, the consequences of glitches are minor by comparison with what they could be in other cases
13:12:35 <Vorpal> spent a week sleeping in my car or in a tent while going all over southern Sweden
13:12:57 <Vorpal> ais523: ah I didn't realise they had three categories on wikipedia
13:12:59 <fizzie> I self-host an instance of https://piwigo.org/ because (a subset of) our relatives generally seem to be interested in what's up, and that's an easy way to make it so. It's not great.
13:13:28 <ais523> firm realtime is more "glitches cost us a serious amount of money, but if the probability is low enough that's still cheaper than the cost of coding to the worst case"
13:13:33 <esolangs> [[Dotcomma]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162949&oldid=140481 * Ractangle * (+105)
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13:13:56 <Vorpal> ais523: but in safety critical design there are different levels depending on how bad the consequences could be. Which is sort of separate from the whole realtime vs not. Two different axes I feel like.
13:14:11 <ais523> …and hard realtime is for when that tradeoff *Isn't* worth it, e.g. pacemakers and the like
13:14:14 <Vorpal> Like: the ABS breaks failing is clearly worse than the engine control unit failing.
13:14:37 <Vorpal> And that is generally reflected in what level of requirements you need to adhere to
13:14:39 <ais523> there have been a few cases where the wires controlling aeroplane engines have failed
13:14:50 <ais523> their failsafe state is to keep running continuously, which makes sense when you think about it
13:15:08 <ais523> meaning that after the plane landed they had to wait for it to run out of fuel
13:15:09 <Vorpal> ais523: even in a plane you have the same thing: auto pilot failing is not as bad as the fly by wire controls failing
13:15:24 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162951&oldid=162910 * Junkshipp * (+368) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
13:15:49 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162952&oldid=162951 * Junkshipp * (+12) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
13:16:51 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162953&oldid=162952 * Junkshipp * (+59) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
13:17:05 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162954&oldid=162953 * Junkshipp * (+0) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
13:17:06 <ais523> Airbus's fly by wire system actually has three different states with different implementation complexity
13:17:12 <Vorpal> each industry has it's own standards for this, and I have never worked in flight. But as I understand it from what I have heard and read, they have levels A-D where A means "if this fails everyone dies", C is like "some people might get injured" and D is like "loss of monetary value I guess" (approximately, I don't remember the actual exact definitions)
13:17:31 <ais523> if something goes wrong (e.g. sensor malfunction) they will switch to a simpler implementation to maximise the chance that the controls are still usable to control the plane
13:18:02 <ais523> which is interesting because it's the different safety standards thing, but within a single program
13:18:23 <Vorpal> fizzie: thanks for that link. I was thinking about immich personally
13:18:43 <ais523> having some control authority is more important than having the controls react in a largely controllable way, which is more important than the protections against accidental dangerous inputs from the pilots
13:18:50 <Vorpal> fizzie: do you know if that piwigo has support for viewing panorams other than layed out flat?
13:20:44 <Vorpal> ais523: yep. I believe the car industry have similar things. And since I work on (mobile, albeit very slowly) industrial equipment we have our own standards for safety that we need to adhere to. Though they are considerably less stringent than in flight.
13:21:23 <Vorpal> fizzie: oh god it is php :(
13:21:24 <ais523> stringent standards don't always end up improving safety – the more difficult the standard is to follow, the more likely someone will violate it
13:21:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not built-in, I don't think, but there were some plugins. I tried one, it sort of worked, but then gave up on it. I haven't done many stitched-up panoramas lately.
13:21:45 <fizzie> I did say it's not great.
13:21:46 <ais523> so more stringent standards likely also need more stringent enforcement, which often nobody is willing to pay for
13:22:08 <Vorpal> fizzie: oh I missed that part, it was line wrapped to the next line
13:23:16 <fizzie> I think I originally ran something called "gallery2", but it went defunct, and Piwigo is what I found to migrate to.
13:23:25 <Vorpal> I think the open source db server world is terrible. Postgres is a pain to upgrade (you need to export and re-import all your data, wtf). Mysql/mariadb is well... it was a joke, I don't know if it still is actually.
13:23:55 <ais523> I run postgres on my server, it is more of an upgrade pain than anything else there, although still manageable
13:24:47 <fizzie> I guess you could argue that if exporting and re-importing is a pain, that's just a sign your data recovery solution is sub-par.
13:25:14 <Vorpal> fizzie: I do have automated backups, on the file level. I like databases that are compatible with that. Such as SQLite
13:25:40 <fizzie> The wiki runs on MariaDB, because (at least at the time) I got the impression that while MediaWiki *could* run on postgres, it really was "natively" more MySQL-ish.
13:25:43 <Vorpal> And I like software that will auto-upgrade their schema when I upgrade the podman container.
13:26:19 <Vorpal> (I don't want a multi-step upgrade process)
13:26:34 <Vorpal> I found https://github.com/meichthys/foss_photo_libraries/tree/main a while ago, seemed like a good comparison.
13:28:00 <fizzie> I've also somewhat recently set up MariaDB's replication thing, so instead of just weekly backups, there's a copy of the wiki that's just in the order of seconds out of date. (Well, for everything that's in the database. Some file uploads younger than a week might get lost.)
13:29:04 <Vorpal> I only have one piece of software using postgres these days: miniflux (RSS reader). Everything else uses sqlite for the most part.
13:29:57 <Vorpal> the key thing is, I can take a btrfs snapshot and backup that.
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14:19:55 <wib_jonas> "<ais523> [rust] and when you aren't using the standard & and &mut, existing libraries don't work very well" => how much is this only because the built-in & and &mut reference types get special treatment for the orphan impl rule. As in `impl C for T` is allowed only if either the trait C or the top level type constructor of the implementing type T
14:19:56 <wib_jonas> is defined in the same crate, but if the implementing type is &B or &mut B then it's enough for the top-level type constructor of B to be defined in the same crate.
14:20:28 <ais523> wib_jonas: actually I haven't found much breakage from the missing #[fundamental] yet
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14:21:05 <ais523> the problem is more that functions return normal Rust references and you can't turn those into your own sorts of references (and the other problem is that nothing other than &mut can be reborrowed correctly)
14:21:20 <ais523> err, for mutable references, it isn't a problem for shared references, even custom ones
14:22:59 <ais523> but if you define a reference type yourself, you get to declare traits on it, even without #[fundamental], because you are mentioning something that is defined in the same crate
14:29:36 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162955 * Pifrited * (+429) A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground
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15:07:31 <wib_jonas> ais523: re bird sociology, a problem in our discussion here is that "bird name" means something like three different things that have subtle semantic differences, and I don't know how best to call each one. I'll have to re-read the bird book to make sure I understand exactly how this works.
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15:10:36 <wib_jonas> One thing you may call "bird name" is for our purposes effectively synonymous with "bird". To evaluate a bird application xy, you have to say this kind of name of the bird y to the bird x, and bird x replies with the name of xy. Bird sociologists (probably each of the ones that we meet in the book, but at least one definitely) can translate between
15:10:37 <wib_jonas> bird name and bird both ways: if he sees a bird he will know what its name is, and if he learns the name of a bird (because a bird says it as a reply to the application) then there is a bird with that name in the forest and the bird sociologist can always find one (though it may take a long time).
15:11:22 <wib_jonas> We never find out the name in this sense of any bird in the book, and the narrator might not even know how to represent them in writing.
15:13:55 <wib_jonas> The second thing that you may call "bird name" are the descriptions like "kestrel", "mockingbird", "identity bird" etc. These are defined by some property, usually some equation of two bird expressions with bird application, in some universal quantifiers over bird-valued variables.
15:14:40 <wib_jonas> The third is the capital letters like K and S that are used to name a bird with such a property in equations written in short form.
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15:19:38 <wib_jonas> If I understand correctly, there are at least three difficulties here. One is that the second kind of bird name isn't unique, there could be multiple birds with different names that are kestrels or whatever S is called. This can happen even for identity birds, even though their equation is so constraining that any two identity birds must give the
15:19:38 <wib_jonas> same answer if you ask them the same question. Note that most properties aren't so constraining, you could have two different K combinators K_1 and K_2 such that for some x, K_1 x != K_2 x. all they have to satisfy is that for every x and y, K_1 x y = K_2 x y = x. And some named properties are even more free than that.
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15:24:29 <wib_jonas> The second problem is that it's possible that two birds are the same combinator, they always give the same answer for any question, but not only they have different names, but some non-combinator birds can distinguish between them, even though this would be impossible in the pure lambda calculus bird. You could have two identity birds I_♀︎ and
15:24:30 <wib_jonas> I_♂︎, then for every bird x, I_♀︎ x = I_♂︎ x = x. But there could be a sexer bird s such that s I_♀︎ = K but s I_♂︎ = K I.
15:25:16 <wib_jonas> Or two birds could differ not just by their name but in other properties that are mentioned in a few chapters of a bird books, like on which days they sing.
15:25:40 <wib_jonas> (Singing is unrelated to the replies they give to an application, to be clear.)
15:29:08 <wib_jonas> And the third problem, and I think this is the only one that the book directly brings up, is that some birds might not be combinators not just because they examine birds in other ways than what they compute, but because they allow you to compute something that a Turing-machine can't. There could be a bird h that solves the halting problem of Turing
15:29:08 <wib_jonas> machines (not of all birds, that would be impossible because of diagonalization), eg. for any encoded Turing-machine x, h x = K if x halts, h x = KI if x does not halt. Around the last chapter the bird sociologist said that there's a rumor that such a powerful bird exists in a faraway forest, but he does not know if that rumor is true.
15:31:17 <wib_jonas> ais523, Vorpal: the discussion about different degrees of realtime is interesting, I should try to say a few things about it later, in relation to my current job. I don't do any of the parts that are even close to real time, but I at least interact with co-workers who do, and the non-realtime programs that I work on communicates with those.
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16:34:56 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine busy beaver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162962&oldid=162961 * C++DSUCKER * (+1)
16:49:31 <esolangs> [[MIG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162963 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+418) Created page with "MIG or Mission: Impossible graphs in a language that runs solely on a graph Here's the definition: In MIG each line consists of a stack of values x_1,x_2,...,x_n. When the line is run put the first value at the bottom of the stack then go to the corresponding
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16:53:53 <Vorpal> wib_jonas: "I don't do any of the parts that are even close to real time, but I at least interact with co-workers who do, and the non-realtime programs that I work on communicates with those." <-- depending on how, you need to be careful so the realtime program doesn't end up waiting on the non-realtime program causing a priority inversion.
16:54:41 <Vorpal> <ais523> wib_jonas: actually I haven't found much breakage from the missing #[fundamental] yet <-- I would expect the lack of automatic reborrowing of User defined &mut would be the killer
16:55:09 <Vorpal> <ais523> but if you define a reference type yourself, you get to declare traits on it, even without #[fundamental], because you are mentioning something that is defined in the same crate <-- it would be a problem for downstream traits using your reference though
16:57:04 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162967&oldid=162966 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+110)
16:57:30 <ais523> korvo: say I have a combinator ! defined as ! a b c d = (a a) b (c d)
16:58:31 <ais523> then, (! ! j) c d = (! ! j) (c d), so in a sense (! ! j) is the identity combinator, regardless of j
16:58:57 <ais523> I think that when looking for small combinator bases, we need to define whether or not this sort of thing stlil counts as universal (suppose there was no way to produce an identity combinator otherwise)
16:59:32 <ais523> I suspect that if it doesn't, there's no way to get a universal size 1 basis – if it does, though, it becomes harder to work out the implications
17:00:05 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162968&oldid=162967 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+92)
17:01:22 <ais523> if it does, though, this trick lets you define K despite having no cancellative combinators
17:01:48 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162969&oldid=162968 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+51)
17:01:56 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162970&oldid=162950 * Hotcrystal0 * (+120)
17:06:25 <Vorpal> this is quite interesting: sudo bpftrace -e 'tracepoint:syscalls:sys_enter_execve,tracepoint:syscalls:sys_enter_execveat { printf("%lld s: %s %s\n", nsecs(boot) / (1000 * 1000 * 1000), comm, str(args.filename)); }'
17:06:44 <Vorpal> it prints the time (since boot) and the command name, for all exec calls
17:07:12 <Vorpal> well it prints the parent and child names
17:07:32 <ais523> so you can see what programs are running, for some definition of "run"
17:07:33 <Vorpal> I found some silly python process that was using system() when it shouldn't that way for example
17:07:45 <ais523> are becoming running, rather than are currently running
17:08:00 <Vorpal> ais523: also, just have that running and launch a new shell, it is very interesting to see how much crap my zshrc apparently contains.
17:08:45 <Vorpal> it captures ephermal processes that you wouldn't notice otherwise
17:10:13 <Vorpal> also apparently when I launch a root shell it runs a whole bunch of more things than when I launch a normal shell. That is very odd, and I should look into that.
17:11:32 <korvo> b_jonas: Good thoughts. The book does emphasize this somewhat, that e.g. a starling is *any* bird S which satisfies S x y z = x z (y z); and birds are characterized by properties rather than species.
17:12:07 <korvo> The book does also have a notion of proper and improper combinators, as well as "order"; the order of a proper combinator is its rank. The idea of improper combinators is to characterize e.g. C K or K I.
17:12:28 <Vorpal> oh dear god, vscode runs git a lot. And it doesn't cache the path, it tries /usr/local/bin/git, /usr/local/sbin/git, ... etc every single time.
17:12:48 <Vorpal> it is quite amazing the silly things you can find with something as simple as that
17:13:39 <korvo> ais523: Well, we can use rank to tell. I has rank one, so anything equivalent to it also must have rank one. But (! ! j) has rank two, so it's clearly something different.
17:14:21 <Vorpal> also, why the hell does launching a root shell run flatpak?
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17:14:34 <ais523> korvo: OK, by that definition, I think a universal basis of size 1 is impossible, because if it's applicative I think that implies it can't implement a rank 1 identity function, and it's hard to see how it could be universal without being applicative
17:15:15 <korvo> ais523: Makes sense. That's roughly where I am, too. I won't say that some sort of super-S is impossible, but it does seem like it has to do a *lot* of different things.
17:15:52 <korvo> This would be simpler if there were a super-strict dividing line between affine and duplicative combinators, but there's no reason that a duplicative combinator couldn't have an affine effect after it's been partially applied.
17:16:26 <korvo> Your ! example does a good job of showing that. After the first partial application, the rest of the combinator is affine; linear, even.
17:16:39 <zemhill> web.ZYP: points -24.90, score 5.45, rank 47/47
17:17:12 <ais523> (the "no rank 1 identity function" is because the leftmost application can't have a variable on the left without evaluating the variable (which the identity function doesn't do), and can't produce the identity function with a variable on the right unless it has the identity function on the left)
17:18:20 <ais523> and then by induction you can show that you can't produce the identity function unless you had one to start with
17:19:28 <Vorpal> flatpak: aha: /etc/profile.d/flatpak.sh
17:21:17 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162971&oldid=162960 * Thomas * (+40)
17:21:41 <korvo> ais523: Right. I didn't get around to actually writing it in the [[combinatory logic]] page, but a complete basis needs some way of bootstrapping application, and curiously neither K nor I have that applicative property.
17:22:05 <ais523> korvo: well, it needs some way to bootstrap application and some way to duplicate data
17:22:21 <ais523> but those logically go in the same combinator, because duplicating data will involve an application somewhere
17:23:11 <korvo> Right. M will do just as well as S for that. MBTI (Church's basis) is equivalent to BCSI (the aristocratic basis).
17:23:53 <korvo> I'm still chewing on the revelation that GI is equivalent to BCI. I can't find a source for this prior to Smullyan and suspect that he's the one who proved it first.
17:29:28 <ais523> last time I looked at this, I decided there were 3×3=9 basic combinators: when compiling an application from lambda calculus to combinators by eliminating variables one at a time, the left and right of the application can each be a) a term that doesn't include the variable you're eliminating, or b) a term that's just a single variable (the one you're eliminating), or c) a term that does include the variable you're eliminating but is rooted at an application
17:29:36 <ais523> three possibilities for the LHS, three for the RHS
17:30:55 <ais523> in case c) you have to recursively eliminate the variable
17:31:34 <ais523> interestingly, K doesn't show up in this scheme (but KI does)
17:31:49 <zemhill> web.ZYP: points -21.33, score 7.28, rank 47/47 (--)
17:33:25 <ais523> <Vorpal> oh dear god, vscode runs git a lot. And it doesn't cache the path, it tries /usr/local/bin/git, /usr/local/sbin/git, ... etc every single time. ← it's probably just calling execvp, which probably doesn't cache, and might not even be able to without breaking the spec
17:34:06 <ais523> bash is able to cache paths of executables, but doesn't unless specifically requested to, in case you install a new executable higher up on the path than one that's been cached
17:34:09 <Vorpal> yeah, But both bash and zsh are smarter (you can see that with the hash command)
17:34:22 <Vorpal> I think bash does this by default?
17:35:10 <Vorpal> and the zsh setup I use hashes everything in PATH once at startup I believe
17:35:13 <ais523> I wonder if inotifying on PATH would be more efficient than rescanning every time
17:35:55 <ais523> the contents of PATH don't usually change much, unless you have . in there
17:36:46 <Vorpal> 22258 s: systemd /proc/self/fd/16 | /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-executor --deserialize 144 --log-level info --log-target journal-or-kmsg <-- interesting, systemd apparently opens the binary first then execs the path under /proc. For some reason.
17:38:05 <ais523> that used to be the only safe way to prevent TOCTOU
17:38:14 <ais523> if you want to do some checks on a file before operating on it
17:38:58 <Vorpal> sure, but this is a root program executing another root owned program as root. My guess is that this is to protect against upgrades. E.g. if I install a new version of systemd it wants to keep executing the old version of this helper binary
17:39:11 <Vorpal> probably to protect against unstable API breaking things
17:39:27 <Vorpal> but what about shared libraries? Won't help with that
17:39:33 <ais523> (this was notably famous with setuid shell scripts – some OSes checked to see if the file was setuid, then escalated and passed the file to the shell, but that was exploitable by swapping out a component of its path after the check but before the root shell started)
17:40:26 <ais523> nowadays you can use openat and friends, which is a little more elegant
17:40:33 <ais523> to protect against the same exploit
17:40:46 <Vorpal> openat doesn't help with exec though?
17:40:57 <ais523> execat can execute from an open FD
17:42:29 <ais523> looks like the rule is to pass an empty string as the filename, the file's FD where you would normally put the directory FD, and AT_EMPTY_PATH in the flags
17:42:31 <b_jonas> right, looking at the bird book, the list in the appendix says Txy = yx, which is the combinator that ais523 mentioned. The book also uses this a lot, and in http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html this is the very first named combinator, called swap. I will have to add it to the tables.
17:43:28 <Vorpal> ais523: anyway, bpftrace is really cool. Well worth playing around with and seeing what is going on on your system. Plus very useful skill to have for when you need to use it in an actual emergency.
17:43:42 <ais523> it's the second-most used combinator in my codebase, after B
17:43:45 <Vorpal> you can collect stacks, make histograms, etc
17:44:09 <b_jonas> oh, that's the underload ~ operator, right?
17:45:35 <ais523> (which is also very commonly used in Underload, sufficiently so that I have it abbreviated to ` in my notes)
17:46:25 <ais523> the Underload/combinator correspondence is inherently confusing, I think
17:46:29 <ais523> at least, I have trouble following it
17:47:31 <b_jonas> that's why I made a table at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Mlatu#Relation_to_Underload , and now I'll have to add an extra column to it with the one-letter names from the bird book
17:48:09 <b_jonas> and probably add a few rows too
17:48:49 <b_jonas> probably whichever of T, B, C, M, W aren't in there
17:49:04 <ais523> no, I mean it doesn't quite translate directly
17:49:57 <b_jonas> what? but all lambda calculus expressions translate to Underload, it's that some underload expressions don't translate to combinators
17:49:58 <ais523> because after running a command you have to pass control to the next command in the program, not the top of the stack
17:50:16 <ais523> b_jonas: yes but that's a *different* translation
17:51:48 <b_jonas> I think I'm too tired to figure this out now
17:54:38 <korvo> ais523, b_jonas: What's happening is that we can interpret the combinators in ETCC instead of ETCS; instead of functions on values from sets, they're functors on objects from categories! And then there is often more than one category-like composition structure lurking in the typical programming environment.
17:55:20 <korvo> I debated hacking out a section in [[combinatory logic]] for this, but was psychically blocked by the social stigma of category theory. Maybe I'll make a side page.
17:57:01 <korvo> I still don't fully understand it myself. e.g. we have to make I pull double duty; it designates both identity arrows (which each are equivalent to an object) and identity endofunctors (which are equivalent to a category).
17:57:15 <b_jonas> also the bird book talks a lot about bird properties defined by an equation where the bird appears in both sides. only one of these is mentioned in the appendix, Theta, but I think Unlambda v is mentioned somewhere, and a whole theorem of who to find a bird for any such equation. and I think these equations are not only satisfied by multiple birds, but also by multiple different combinators.
17:57:33 <esolangs> [[GnomeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162972&oldid=162971 * Thomas * (+7)
18:09:19 <b_jonas> hold on... https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic#Table_of_combinators does not list W
18:10:28 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162973&oldid=162970 * Hotcrystal0 * (-119)
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18:19:13 <korvo> b_jonas: Ah nuts, I knew I'd miss one. Ping me and I'll do it; otherwise, I won't step on your toes.
18:39:43 <b_jonas> korvo: I won't add it becuase I don't know the english names like "kestrel"
18:41:02 <b_jonas> the translated names are usually close to the originals, as in they mean a similar category of real-world bird animals, but animal names are fuzzy and there's no one-to-one mapping between them in different languages, so I won't try to backtranslate it
18:41:57 <b_jonas> in this case my guess is "warbler" becuase of the names for W* and W** and W[1] listed, but you should actually check that in the book
18:44:42 <b_jonas> most of these bird names I know of only from the bird book, not from real world bird animals
18:45:11 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162974&oldid=162911 * Corbin * (+68) /* Table of combinators */ Add W.
18:45:59 <b_jonas> the table in my book lists W, W', W^*, W^{**}, but no W_1 or W_2, at least not under that name
18:46:15 <korvo> b_jonas: No worries! I am happy to double-check when I happen to have the corresponding dead-tree on my shelf. Ping me again if I missed another one.
18:48:45 <b_jonas> ideally a table like this should give both a lambda expression style definition like `W x y = x y y`, which is what's in the table in the book, and a combinator expression from other combinators, like W = S S (S K)
18:49:07 <b_jonas> of course the first one isn't possible for all birds
18:49:53 <b_jonas> but it should be possible to compute the lambda calculus expressions automatically from the definitions in the table with a lambda calculus evaluator
18:50:17 <korvo> Bird names never translate well. There is a bird that visits my front yard every morning. In Lojban, it's called {blanykorvo}, roughly "blue crow". In American English, it's called "California scrub jay".
18:50:57 <b_jonas> my problem is with "kestrel", which is apparently in the name of some falons but it's not clear if it's a meaningful group
18:51:24 <korvo> ...I mean, {blanykorvrkalyfyrniaskrybdjei} is legal fu'ivla, but that's not how I call to them in the morning.
18:51:54 <b_jonas> but fortunately the book doesn't use "falcon" as a bird name
18:52:20 <korvo> Ha, no, I think "kestrel" is a vibe, probably from a fairly old word. Definitely not a clade.
18:52:35 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162975&oldid=162700 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+9)
18:53:13 <korvo> ...Oh, that's apparently an American view, because the American kestrel is not a true kestrel. True kestrels have evidence for a clade. Very cool, TIL.
18:56:01 <esolangs> [[Primal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162976 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+123) Created page with "Primal is a esolang that works using only two accumulators and is turing complete (unless I'm missing something) Commands:"
18:58:26 <b_jonas> the good thing is that there are only like 10_000 bird species, less if you exclude Madagascar, New Zealand, Australia, and various isolated islands, and there probably aren't many more to discover, so there's a bound for how bad the names can become. if you tried to name something of arthropods then you'd run into an ever-growing changing mess of horrible confusing vernacular names. even naming objects
18:58:32 <b_jonas> from fish would be much worse than birds.
19:03:26 <b_jonas> but Smullyan's names also include "thrush" and "bluebird", of which "bluebird" is apparently a group of thrushes in the New World only
19:03:39 <b_jonas> s/thrushes in/thrushes living in/
19:04:30 <esolangs> [[Primal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162977&oldid=162976 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+878)
19:05:59 <korvo> Lojban only has edible birds, not singing birds. It has duck, goose, chicken, turkey.
19:06:23 <esolangs> [[Primal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162978&oldid=162977 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+143)
19:07:46 <esolangs> [[Primal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162979&oldid=162978 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+133)
19:07:48 <b_jonas> real world falcons and eagles are neither edible nor singing
19:08:05 <esolangs> [[User:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162980&oldid=162975 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+12)
19:08:13 <b_jonas> (I have to say real world, because I don't claim that falcons in the bird book don't sing)
19:13:09 <b_jonas> is there a bird name for KI ?
19:14:03 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162981&oldid=162969 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+46)
19:16:20 <esolangs> [[MIG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162982&oldid=162981 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+77)
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19:19:09 <korvo> I don't think K I actually shows up. The sections that introduce K and I are adjacent and there's lots of exercises involving how they are related to fundamental properties, but I didn't see the formation of K I in there.
19:24:07 <korvo> I get the feeling that Smullyan didn't want to name the constant birds. He talked about how they can become constant, using properties like "fixation" and "egocentrism" that I'm not super-comfortable using as-is.
19:27:57 <korvo> Like, he more-or-less defines a kestrel as any combinator K s.t. K x is fixated on x, which merely means that (K x) y = x; in today's language, we say that K x y is constantly x, which is just an unhelpfully-long explanation of that = sign.
19:35:11 <esolangs> [[MIG+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162984 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+882) Created page with "MIG+ is a version of MIG with a shared variable Instead of going to the next command in the stack, they go to a command based on the variable and set the variable to a different value. Notation: MIG+ code looks like this: x_{1,1},y_{1,1},"string_{1,1}":z_
19:35:42 <esolangs> [[MIG+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162985&oldid=162984 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+24)
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20:09:53 <esolangs> [[Treebrainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162991 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+347) Created page with "Treebrainfuck is a derivative of brainfuck: Changes: Treebrainfuck is a version of brainfuck that instead of taking place on a tape, takes place infinitely far up a infinite tree with an infinite number of branches on each node this variation adds o
20:13:28 <esolangs> [[Treebrainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162992&oldid=162991 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+1047)
20:15:09 <esolangs> [[Treebrainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162993&oldid=162992 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+106)
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20:34:55 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162996 * RainbowDash * (+5487) Woohoo
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21:32:37 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162997&oldid=162954 * Junkshipp * (+443) /* Syntax */
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22:28:09 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162999&oldid=162998 * Junkshipp * (+522) /* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
22:29:22 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163000&oldid=162999 * Junkshipp * (+23) /* Commands */
22:30:18 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163001&oldid=163000 * Junkshipp * (-40) /* Deduction */
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23:46:31 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163003&oldid=163002 * Junkshipp * (+4) /* Deduction */
23:46:50 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163004&oldid=163003 * Junkshipp * (+5) /* #id - More plugging in */
23:53:40 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163005&oldid=163004 * Junkshipp * (+13) /* #in - Induction */
23:54:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163006 * I am islptng * (+133) Created page with "conlang ~~~~"
00:11:09 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163007&oldid=163005 * Junkshipp * (+0) /* Deduction */
00:11:22 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163008&oldid=163007 * Junkshipp * (-2) /* Deduction */
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03:39:10 <strerror> Python golfing contest: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025
03:44:24 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163011&oldid=162996 * RainbowDash * (+531) Instructions Yay
03:45:00 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163012&oldid=163011 * RainbowDash * (+1) /* SARCASM Instruction Set */
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04:25:00 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163014&oldid=163013 * RainbowDash * (+549) user input in the form of a single digit
04:28:59 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163015&oldid=163014 * RainbowDash * (+4) /* SARCASM Instruction Set */
04:33:22 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163016&oldid=163015 * RainbowDash * (+233) Infobox also added credit for me to making it.
04:34:08 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163017&oldid=163016 * RainbowDash * (+7) Spacing
04:40:55 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163018&oldid=163017 * RainbowDash * (+1) s. That's all for tonight i think.
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08:13:15 <ais523> `as-encoding jmp *%eax
08:13:18 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `jmp'
08:13:36 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `jmp'
08:13:41 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Warning: indirect jmp without `*' \ ff e0: jmpq *%rax
08:13:45 <ais523> `as-encoding jmp *%rax
08:18:38 <ais523> `as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rip, %rax), %rcx
08:18:40 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: `0x1234(%rip,%rax)' is not a valid base/index expression
08:18:54 <ais523> `as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %rax), %rcx
08:18:57 <HackEso> 48 8b 8c 05 34 12 00: mov 0x1234(%rbp,%rax,1),%rcx \ 00
08:19:03 <ais523> `as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %eax), %rcx
08:19:05 <HackEso> {standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: `0x1234(%rbp,%eax)' is not a valid base/index expression
08:19:44 <ais523> `as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %rax, 8), %rcx
08:19:46 <HackEso> 48 8b 8c c5 34 12 00: mov 0x1234(%rbp,%rax,8),%rcx \ 00
08:20:30 <ais523> `as-encoding lea 0x1234(%rip), %rbp
08:20:33 <HackEso> 48 8d 2d 34 12 00 00: lea 0x1234(%rip),%rbp # 0x123b
09:05:04 <fizzie> "The concise implementations produced by top teams are likely to serve as canonical reference solutions for this seminal dataset."
09:05:20 <fizzie> . o O (Are we _sure_ we want AI systems to generate golfed code?)
09:06:49 <fizzie> There seems to be an (unwarranted?) assumption that the shortest possible solution will naturally "emphasiz[e] robustness and simplicity".
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11:10:50 <ais523> fizzie: in my experience, golfed code emphasizes algorithms with fewer and simpler steps over robust and performant algorithms
11:11:14 <ais523> in particular, frequently the shortest way to write something is to loop over all possible outputs and check to see whether each one is correct
11:13:10 <ais523> the shortest implementation of integer square root I can think of involves checking all numbers from n to 0 downwards until you find one whose square is less than or equal to n, for example
11:13:20 <ais523> …but this is one of the worst possible algorithms you could be using in practice
11:13:50 <ais523> (this is assuming that you don't have a builtin, e.g. because you're implementing the builtin)
11:16:40 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering whether implementing it in terms of float sqrt would be faster, the issue is dealing with potential rounding errors but maybe there's some terse way to correct for that
11:17:04 <ais523> err, terser, not faster
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11:51:29 <strerror> It might be secretly a contest to make a golfing AI--each of the 400 functions is scored by itself, so they have to be golfed separately even if they have similar subprograms
11:52:43 <strerror> (It's also uncertain whether they intended the contest to be about this)
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12:02:16 <HackEso> It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate.
12:03:56 <int-e> Ah, found the link above.
12:07:35 <int-e> yeah this is clearly angling for ML
12:11:07 <int-e> Can't even access the problems without entering a contract with them.
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12:28:25 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, if you have a floating point type that has a significand at least a few bits larger than the integer input (eg. 32-bit integer and 64-bit double) then I think you can covert to float, add 0.5, take square root, then convert to integer rounding towards zero or down. this is very terse in many languages like C because the type
12:28:25 <wib_jonas> conversions can often by implicit.
12:31:08 <wib_jonas> as for that golf contest, hey look, https://rosettacode.org website is accessible again, great
12:33:00 <ais523> wib_jonas: I was mostly thinking about the case where you don't have a big enough float type
12:33:09 <ais523> can 64-bit floats let you square-root 64-bit integers?
12:33:34 <int-e> (I'm really just interested in how varied the problems are... is it all conversions from some input image into and output image? is there text processing too? are there any actual algorithms or just input/output pairs?
12:33:51 <wib_jonas> well, it might be, but it won't be as golfy
12:34:43 <int-e> (So not interested in actually solving any of them.)
12:35:08 <wib_jonas> I guess you'd need a few trial squaring after you get an approxiate square root using the floating-point number
12:38:15 <int-e> let x = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 + 1; y = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 - 1 in x == y
12:38:23 <int-e> > let x = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 + 1; y = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 - 1 in x == y
12:39:15 <int-e> (this kind of thing makes it rather unlikely)
12:46:34 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163019&oldid=162956 * Pifrited * (+504) /* xixixixixi Lang */
12:47:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163020&oldid=163006 * Pifrited * (+120)
12:48:58 <strerror> int-e: the ARC problems are all image-to-image (or grids of integers 0-9, as there are only 10 "colours") but each problem has its own implicit rules shown by the example pairs, they're kind of like riddles
12:49:18 <strerror> ais523: a 64-bit float has a 53-bit mantissa so it can represent every int n with error less than sqrt(n)/2, so the float sqrt should work
12:51:54 <int-e> the float square root should get you within 1 of the desired answer
12:53:15 <int-e> But I think you'll have to square and test (or something eqivalent) once to find the final answer.
13:07:47 <ais523> re: that arcprize codegolfing, I think I understand why they want it – the shortest description of the problem is likely the one that generalises best
13:08:03 <ais523> the inefficient brute-force solution is actually the desirable one, here
13:09:36 <ais523> evaluating that sort of solution might be hard, though
13:09:46 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163021&oldid=163019 * Pifrited * (+490)
13:16:09 <int-e> Eh the contest design is fine for what it is. But it doesn't appeal to me. And I do believe that they should give you a small but representative sample set of tasks before you sign up formally.
13:19:18 <int-e> Context matters. This could be an ICFP programming contest and I'd probably feel a bit different about it then.
13:23:33 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163022&oldid=162798 * Hotcrystal0 * (+34)
13:33:12 <ais523> there are plenty of public arcprize tasks
13:33:41 <ais523> but, there has to be a list of tasks that they're trying very hard to not allow into AI training data, as it would defeat their purpose
13:43:21 <wib_jonas> strerror: wait, what is this ARC image problems thing? that sounds very interesting, I was thinking there should be image to image golf problems, and this may or may not be similar
13:44:52 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163023&oldid=163021 * Pifrited * (+320)
13:46:42 <wib_jonas> ais523: it may be worth to check what the blue book says about integer square root. I think it talks about how to compute it, but I don't recall if floats are involved. b_jonas may check it at home where I have the book on my shelf – it's too far to reach from wib_jonas
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13:53:25 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163024&oldid=163023 * Pifrited * (+173) /* Whats the shape of the earth? */
13:58:54 <strerror> wib_jonas: Google has turned the ARC AI problem set into, I suppose you could think of these as 400 image golf problems now: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025
14:00:12 <strerror> They're just using the 2024 training problems for this contest, which are already public
14:02:07 <strerror> Hopefully they're creating additional private tests for these though, to prevent hardcoding
14:04:17 <strerror> (The problems can be browsed on the website: https://arcprize.org/play?task=007bbfb7)
14:07:07 <ais523> so arcprize has four sets: an easy and difficult public set, a difficult mostly-private set (has been sent over LLM APIs but not published online), and a difficult truly-private set (which only interacts with programs running on their own hardware, so they can prevent them exfiltrating details)
14:08:50 <ais523> it crossed my mind, while I was AFK, that maybe generating small esoprograms and using them to produce output would be an interesting way to produce patterns that aren't biased by human experience
14:09:10 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163025&oldid=163018 * RainbowDash * (+38) Python implment
14:09:25 <ais523> although you would probably need some sort of recursive RLE step to make exponentially growing patterns small enough for humans to grasp
14:10:23 <wib_jonas> is the scoring described somewhere?
14:10:26 <ais523> the problem would be a "continue the pattern" type of problem
14:10:46 <ais523> wib_jonas: I picked it up from articles on their blog, it's % of problems for which a correct answer is submitted
14:10:57 <ais523> presumably on the first try
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14:22:42 <strerror> Exponentially growing outputs might be a bit too unnatural, and unphysical
14:24:04 <strerror> If the outputs are constrained to a spatial grid, that reminds me of MJ (a successor to the WFC method) -- https://github.com/mxgmn/MarkovJunior
14:24:37 <strerror> The example programs are quite short, and chosen for human interest but some randomly sampled programs might behave differently
14:25:18 <ais523> oh right, we could use a wrapping memory space
14:25:20 <strerror> Alternatively you could project an exponential output to a space that can contain it, like a hyperbolic plane
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14:59:21 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163026&oldid=162451 * Hotcrystal0 * (+49)
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15:18:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:DWIM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163027&oldid=134380 * Ractangle * (+268)
15:22:19 <esolangs> [[Easyfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163028&oldid=119733 * Ractangle * (+0)
15:26:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Myalt2334 * New user account
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15:31:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163029&oldid=162935 * Myalt2334 * (+150) added me
15:32:26 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163030 * Myalt2334 * (+174) made the page
15:38:14 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163031&oldid=163024 * Pifrited * (+447)
15:51:13 <esolangs> [[Easyfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163032&oldid=163028 * PkmnQ * (+5324) /* Constants (shortest) */
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16:30:34 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163033 * Myalt2334 * (+3283) Created page "Emoticode"
16:31:25 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163034&oldid=163033 * Myalt2334 * (+13)
16:32:22 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163035&oldid=163034 * Myalt2334 * (+56)
16:34:26 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163036&oldid=163035 * Myalt2334 * (+11) polishing
16:36:21 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163037&oldid=163036 * Myalt2334 * (+5) /* Flush */
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16:41:15 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163038&oldid=162622 * Myalt2334 * (+98) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
16:41:59 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163039&oldid=163038 * Myalt2334 * (+23) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
16:44:05 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163040&oldid=163030 * Myalt2334 * (+47)
16:44:16 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163041&oldid=163040 * Myalt2334 * (+0)
16:49:57 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163042&oldid=163037 * Myalt2334 * (+413)
16:50:06 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163043&oldid=163042 * Myalt2334 * (+2) /* Credits */
16:50:43 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163044&oldid=163041 * Myalt2334 * (+50)
16:51:26 <esolangs> [[User:Myalt2334]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163045&oldid=163044 * Myalt2334 * (+12)
16:52:13 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163046&oldid=163043 * Myalt2334 * (+6) /* Credits */
16:52:26 <esolangs> [[Emoticode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163047&oldid=163046 * Myalt2334 * (-2) /* Credits */
17:19:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Myalt2334]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163048 * Myalt2334 * (+118) Created page with "pls think my esolang is cool --~~~~"
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17:42:07 <esolangs> [[Arch is the best!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163049&oldid=125832 * WarzokERNST135 * (+49)
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17:57:38 <b_jonas> I checked the blue book. it does talk about integer square root, but not about how to compute it using floating point square root
18:02:38 <esolangs> [[User:/nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163050&oldid=162808 * WarzokERNST135 * (+25)
18:02:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:/nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163051&oldid=162809 * WarzokERNST135 * (+26)
18:05:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163052&oldid=162854 * WarzokERNST135 * (+80)
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19:24:25 <esolangs> [[End]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163053&oldid=79396 * Ractangle * (+6)
20:13:30 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163054 * A() * (+387) Created page with "[[SJBF]] or Scratch Junior [[BF]],is a [[BF]] derivative based on Scratch Junior made by [[User:A()]]. ==Commands== > < + -|if belowzero Broadcast message} Message|Code} , . ==Programs== ===InfLoop=== -|#1} #1|+>[x]<-|#1}} ===Truth Machine=== ,-|#1}#1|+>+.-<-|#1}} ===
20:16:01 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163055&oldid=163054 * A() * (+36)
20:18:06 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163056&oldid=163055 * A() * (+0)
20:18:20 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163057&oldid=163056 * A() * (-1)
20:20:01 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163058&oldid=163057 * A() * (+51)
20:20:22 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163059&oldid=163058 * A() * (+0)
20:20:36 <esolangs> [[SJBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163060&oldid=163059 * A() * (-23)
20:23:50 <esolangs> [[User:A()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163061&oldid=160455 * A() * (+26) /* Esolangs */
20:31:47 <esolangs> [[Infinite noise automata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163062&oldid=157847 * RainbowDash * (-2793) Deleted it for a reason, the updated page is on Noise Automata, whoever wants this page can take it.
20:34:57 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163063&oldid=159536 * RainbowDash * (+54) sarcasm
21:00:03 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163064 * A() * (+789) Created page with "[[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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21:25:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Python nerd1235 * New user account
21:51:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163065&oldid=150706 * Ractangle * (+175) /* Where is Python 3 */
22:08:12 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163066&oldid=162785 * Hotcrystal0 * (+134)
22:10:17 <esolangs> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163067&oldid=158115 * Hotcrystal0 * (+6) br tag
22:13:40 <esolangs> [[Template:Stubnoinfo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163068&oldid=161700 * Ractangle * (+6) aaa
22:14:30 <esolangs> [[Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163069&oldid=163067 * Ractangle * (-6) oops, I used the nowiki tag for the template
00:30:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163070&oldid=162768 * Hotcrystal0 * (+129)
00:33:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163071&oldid=163066 * Hotcrystal0 * (+110)
00:33:53 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163072&oldid=163071 * Hotcrystal0 * (+67)
00:42:56 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163073&oldid=163072 * Hotcrystal0 * (-79)
00:45:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163074&oldid=163020 * I am islptng * (+158)
00:48:11 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163075&oldid=113071 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1) Correcting a typo
00:50:24 <esolangs> [[DWIM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163076&oldid=131444 * I am islptng * (+342)
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02:22:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Infinite noise automata]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163077 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+3) Created page with "???"
04:16:22 <esolangs> [[Minsky machine busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163078&oldid=162962 * C++DSUCKER * (+100)
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04:28:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163079&oldid=163074 * Pifrited * (+139)
04:30:07 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163080&oldid=163031 * Pifrited * (-2) /* Whats the shape of the earth? */
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05:49:47 <esolangs> [[BitChanger Busy beaver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163081&oldid=160824 * C++DSUCKER * (+75)
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07:15:06 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163082&oldid=163025 * WinslowJosiah * (+499) Add Truth-machine
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10:57:18 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163083&oldid=162710 * Dhzb * (+18)
11:01:54 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163084&oldid=163083 * Dhzb * (+12)
11:10:21 <esolangs> [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163085&oldid=58600 * BrainFuckGirl * (+289) /* Example programs */ "Hello, world!" program
11:11:24 <esolangs> [[User:BrainFuckGirl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163086&oldid=161179 * BrainFuckGirl * (+10) /* Code */
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12:01:40 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163087 * Dhzb * (+128) Created page with "{{lowercase}} cirbe is an esolang that uses the following 16 unicode characters: "
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12:18:12 <int-e> LOL, the top entries on https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025/leaderboard are all... close to the maximum value representable by an IEEE double
12:18:23 <int-e> something went wrong ;-)
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13:52:45 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163088&oldid=162926 * A() * (+17) /* W */
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14:02:39 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163089&oldid=163064 * A() * (+234)
14:03:48 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163090&oldid=163089 * A() * (-1)
14:06:32 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163091&oldid=163090 * A() * (+34) /* Infinte loop */
14:07:28 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163092&oldid=163091 * A() * (+52) /* Hello World */
14:11:37 <esolangs> [[User:A()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163093&oldid=163061 * A() * (+160)
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14:19:38 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163094&oldid=163092 * A() * (+24) /* Programs */
14:20:42 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163095&oldid=163094 * A() * (+60) /* Programs */
14:24:11 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163096&oldid=162621 * A() * (+225) /* Implementations */
14:31:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163097&oldid=163088 * A() * (+11) /* S */
14:43:55 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163098&oldid=163087 * Dhzb * (+123)
14:44:42 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163099&oldid=163098 * Dhzb * (+6)
14:59:54 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163100&oldid=163099 * Dhzb * (+547)
15:17:07 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163101&oldid=163100 * Dhzb * (+293)
15:18:59 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163102&oldid=163101 * Dhzb * (-5)
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15:36:58 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163103&oldid=163102 * Dhzb * (+320)
15:42:16 <esolangs> [[Cirbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163104&oldid=163103 * Dhzb * (+30)
16:26:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ello * New user account
16:30:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163105&oldid=163029 * Ello * (+210)
16:51:47 <esolangs> [[SARCASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163106&oldid=163082 * RainbowDash * (+15) Add Jumping
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18:00:14 <esolangs> [[3DGrid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163107 * A() * (+1259) Created page with "[[3DGrid]] uses a 10 by 10 by 10 3d grid of numbers as a program. [[User:A()]] made it. ==Commands== 00 - nop 01 - move forwards 02 - move backwards 03 - move left 04 - move right 05 - move up 06 - move down 07 - Intersection 08 - make new Pointer, and make it move
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18:29:48 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163108 * Ello * (+2743) Created page with "Lime Squeezer is an esoteric programming language created by Ello, me :D ==Basic Syntax== Lime Squeezer uses 8-bit op-codes, has 2 8-bit stacks(both have a 16 kilobyte limit) and is run from bottom up, also, any operands, are written below(or in this case: above) t
18:34:40 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163109&oldid=163108 * Ello * (+27)
18:58:01 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163110&oldid=163109 * Ello * (+0)
18:58:28 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163111&oldid=163110 * Ello * (+0)
19:13:05 <esolangs> [[ ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163112 * Ello * (+4091) Created page with "this page is a russian translation of [[Lime Squeezer]] done by Ello, me again :D i did this cuz i am russian and want russian people to know about my esolang too :> Ello, :D == == 8- -, 8- (..."
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19:44:58 <esolangs> [[FALSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163113&oldid=146379 * Ractangle * (+8) /* See also */
19:46:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ractangle * moved [[true]] to [[True (Ractangle)]] over redirect: rebranding the project
19:46:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ractangle * Ractangle deleted redirect [[True (Ractangle)]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[true]]"
19:51:21 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163116&oldid=162266 * Ractangle * (+2) Not specifying a type result in a type used by the return value type of the varible
20:03:47 <esolangs> [[True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163117&oldid=145361 * Ractangle * (+9)
20:07:48 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163118&oldid=163116 * Ractangle * (+488) /* Errors */
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20:25:52 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163119&oldid=163118 * Ractangle * (-830) /* Syntax */
20:29:14 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163120&oldid=163119 * Ractangle * (-98) /* Examples */
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20:45:42 <fizzie> "The metric implementation is not yet secure, scores are presently for debugging only.
20:45:49 <fizzie> It does say that on the page.
20:47:00 <int-e> Hmm, I don't know whether it said that earlier; it's not very prominent.
20:47:40 <int-e> obviously these entries will be easy to disqualify :P
20:48:02 <int-e> (along with any others that cheat the same way but keep the score realistic)
20:51:54 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163121&oldid=163120 * Ractangle * (-5) oops, missed a spot
20:52:58 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163122&oldid=163121 * Ractangle * (+26) /* Syntax */ AYSHU WAS DA U
20:55:23 <esolangs> [[3DGrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163123&oldid=163107 * A() * (-7) /* Truth Machine */
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21:21:26 <esolangs> [[Postrado]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163124&oldid=158021 * Ractangle * (-59) /* Commands */
21:32:29 <esolangs> [[3DGrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163125&oldid=163123 * A() * (+194)
21:33:15 <esolangs> [[3DGrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163126&oldid=163125 * A() * (+19)
22:00:04 <esolangs> [[Insanely Easy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163127 * A() * (+109) Created page with "[[Totally<sup>Insanely<sup>Easy</sup></sup> <gallery> Screenshot 2025-08-08 5.57.17 PM|Caption1 </gallery> ]]"
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22:18:58 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163128&oldid=163010 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1587)
22:29:40 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163129&oldid=163111 * Ello * (+70)
22:30:12 <esolangs> [[ ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163130&oldid=163112 * Ello * (+98)
22:39:07 <esolangs> [[ ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163131&oldid=163130 * Ello * (+0)
22:39:18 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163132&oldid=163129 * Ello * (+0)
23:55:58 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163133 * Ello * (+3531) Created page with "Cookie is an esoteric programming language made by Ello, me :D ==Base Syntax== Cookie has 8-bit integers, 16-bit integers, 8-bit arrays and 16-bit arrays as variables their names are as follows: 8-bit integer | Plain 16-bit integer| Oatmeal Raisin string | Milk
23:59:27 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163134&oldid=163133 * Ello * (+522)
00:09:46 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163135&oldid=163134 * Ello * (+42)
00:12:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * I am islptng * moved [[ ]] to [[Lime Sqeezer/ru]]
00:12:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * I am islptng * moved [[Lime Sqeezer/ru]] to [[Lime Squeezer/ru]]: Misspelled title
00:14:08 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163140&oldid=163135 * Ello * (+35)
00:15:11 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163141&oldid=163140 * Ello * (-1)
00:15:48 <esolangs> [[Lime Squeezer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163142&oldid=163132 * I am islptng * (+84)
00:17:32 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
00:35:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163143&oldid=162442 * Hotcrystal0 * (+446)
00:35:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163144&oldid=163143 * Hotcrystal0 * (+11)
00:36:19 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163145&oldid=163141 * Ello * (+102)
00:40:04 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163146&oldid=163145 * Ello * (-7)
00:46:43 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163147&oldid=163073 * Hotcrystal0 * (+327)
00:47:07 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163148&oldid=163147 * Hotcrystal0 * (+19)
00:47:25 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163149&oldid=163148 * Hotcrystal0 * (+26)
00:47:53 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/12]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163150&oldid=163149 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
00:56:54 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163151&oldid=163146 * Hotcrystal0 * (-6)
01:07:57 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163152&oldid=162861 * Hotcrystal0 * (-496)
01:17:24 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163153&oldid=163151 * Ello * (+38)
01:25:10 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163154&oldid=163153 * Ello * (-32)
01:28:16 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163155&oldid=163154 * Ello * (+21)
02:02:52 <esolangs> [[Sollux]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163156 * Bigman4u * (+12023) First draft of sollux page
02:10:49 <esolangs> [[Fzzbzz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163157&oldid=160446 * Bigman4u * (+55) add a link to another Fzzbzz implementation
03:41:53 -!- bongino has joined.
05:42:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163158&oldid=163144 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+168)
05:43:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163159&oldid=163158 * HyperbolicireworksPen * (+10)
05:49:35 -!- tromp has joined.
05:51:40 -!- ais523 has joined.
05:59:29 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).