00:41:04 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169694&oldid=169675 * PrySigneToFry * (-37)
00:41:23 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169695&oldid=169694 * PrySigneToFry * (-22)
00:42:31 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169696&oldid=169695 * PrySigneToFry * (+54)
00:42:49 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169697&oldid=169696 * PrySigneToFry * (+22)
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02:02:01 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169698&oldid=163972 * Kleberlucas * (+133) added zig 0.15 implementation
02:16:45 <esolangs> [[Nein.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169699 * Kleberlucas * (+245) Created page with "'''Nein.''' works just like [[Nope.]], but instead of printing <code>Nope.</code>, it prints <code>Nein.</code> . I wonder if somebody will ever make an implementation for this esolang. Note: made by [[User:Kleberlucas]]. [[Category:Languages]]"
02:18:46 <esolangs> [[Nein.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169700&oldid=169699 * Aadenboy * (+161)
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03:25:54 <esolangs> [[FFFF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169701&oldid=169649 * RainbowDash * (+0) /* Example FSM encoding. */
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05:11:46 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169702&oldid=169697 * PrySigneToFry * (+901) Maybe I must put the notice here.
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05:19:07 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169703&oldid=168259 * PrySigneToFry * (+2059)
05:20:48 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169704&oldid=169703 * PrySigneToFry * (+48)
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07:58:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Fuck 2red]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: author request, no useful content
07:59:06 <ais523> zzo38: I think I've heard the name "translation database" before but am not sure how good a fit it is
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08:08:18 <Yayimhere> I landed an interview on Esoteric.codes yesterday
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08:09:40 <ais523> ah, looks like it hasn't been posted yet
08:09:49 <ais523> but it's interesting to see a range of different perspectives
08:09:58 <ais523> I will look forward to it
08:10:14 <Yayimhere> we haven't actually done it yet, because Daniel just got done with his book
08:16:49 <ais523> I've been busy with other things for a while (and am still a bit busy) so I haven't got much esolanging done
08:19:19 <Yayimhere> on the esolanging, and speed up on other things
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08:26:42 <Yayimhere> `(np)/q == p/(qn)` if and only If n = 1 or -1
08:26:44 <HackEso> (np)/q? No such file or directory
08:26:58 <Yayimhere> that could be interesting as a conditional
08:27:50 <Yayimhere> maybe a Fractran style list of fractions
08:28:06 <Yayimhere> where `n=(np)/q` if and only if `(np)/q == p/(qn)`
08:28:31 <ais523> this simplifies to n/x == x/n or if you have constants, n == 1/n
08:29:03 <ais523> and it rearranges to n*n == 1
08:29:12 <ais523> (which then means it works with integer arithmetic)
08:29:42 <Yayimhere> well then it would be `n=(np)/q` if `n*n == 1`
08:29:58 <ais523> I think the normal situation where this sort of thing is useful is when you don't have control flow available at all and are just trying to simulate it using unconditional calculations on variables
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08:30:43 <ais523> languages like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded_Arithmetic or ELEMENTARY (which isn't documented on the wiki yet, I need to get round to it)
08:31:26 <HackEso> n=(np)/q? No such file or directory
08:31:39 <Yayimhere> as in solve for `p/q=n` for both `p & q`
08:36:07 <ais523> now I'm busy reading up on ELEMENTARY to see if I can document it
08:36:24 <ais523> Wikipedia used to have some amount of description on it as a language but it seems to have been deleted, possibly due to lack of sources
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08:36:48 <ais523> it's sort-of like Blindfolded Arithmetic but with more operators and without the loop (so it's sub-Turing-complete, but pretty powerful)
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08:55:14 <avih_> ais523: btw, i mentioned few times that https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck has better optimizations than any other bf compiler/interpreter i saw, but i looked at the code, and as far as i can tell it has a big list of "canned" patterns it tries to identify and address, so not as generic as i hoped it would be. still very good though
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08:56:20 <avih> (judging by the function names. i didn't try to actually follow the code)
09:05:46 <ais523> optimisers often do that sort of thing
09:05:53 <ais523> but yes, a bit disappointing
09:09:24 <avih> ais523: is your optimizer on the more generic side?
09:09:47 <avih> (i know it's not bf, but still)
09:09:48 <ais523> the one I was working on but ended up abandoning was more generic
09:10:07 <ais523> and the one for The Waterfall Model is only identifying one pattern but it's a very general one
09:10:25 <avih> right, that's what i hope to do with bf too
09:10:42 <avih> with the one pattern being "counter loop"
09:12:13 <avih> (it's the best name i got for it, but i've not seen this name elsewhere. typically it's called balanced loops or some such, but it's more specific than that because the main characteristic is that there's one cell which is being decreased by 1 on each iteration, making it a counter)
09:14:49 <avih> (and obviously the loop ends when this cell is zero)
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10:32:09 <Yayimhere> I just realized I had accidentally said that `n=np`
10:45:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * JIT * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Nothing-suspicious.png]]": definitely did NOT make 2 errors in this thing and had to correct them, unrelated note: steganographic code is REALLY hard to code!
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10:59:41 <APic> Heya Yayimhere 😌
11:11:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169706&oldid=168264 * I am islptng * (+152) /* SletScript */
11:11:10 <esolangs> [[Exoshell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169707 * Keymaker * (+45750) A two-symbol loop-based language where program form (such as nested loops) encodes no additional functionality.
11:20:17 <esolangs> [[Countertrue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169708 * Keymaker * (+3244) A simple counter-based language with deterministic, cyclic execution.
11:21:48 <esolangs> [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169709&oldid=148473 * Keymaker * (+159) Added the new languages.
11:35:05 <ais523> it may take me a while to read this
11:35:25 <Yayimhere> ais523: it does in fact seem interesting
11:35:56 <strerror> “nested loops encode no additional functionality” seems like an unintuitive way to describe a language where nested loops encode all functionality
11:36:21 <ais523> huh, Countertrue is like a backwards version of The Waterfall Model
11:36:50 <ais523> instead of the zeroing triggers running when the counter is zero, they run when the counter *isn't* zero
11:37:44 <ais523> it's interesting that this works despite the triggers containing only +1/0/-1 as values
11:37:51 <ais523> I'm not surprised that that's true, but it isn't totally obvious
11:38:47 <esolangs> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169710&oldid=160864 * Ais523 * (+18) /* See also */ Countertrue is basically the opposite of The Waterfall Model (the triggers run when the counter isn't 0 rather than when it is 0) and so almost certainly is worth linking here
11:41:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ytyeytyd98e88498 * New user account
11:43:38 <Yayimhere> I wonder if mayhaps Unlambda is turing complete with `c` and `d` and `s`
11:55:33 <ais523> oh right, if you want to change a counter by more than 1 in Countertrue you can just use duplicate counters in order to get twice as many triggers
11:56:16 <ais523> this would work in The Waterfall Model too, if simultaneous zeroing were defined as running both triggers rather than undefined behaviour (but the "run both triggers" behaviour is often hard to implement and not very natural for the language)
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12:08:22 <esolangs> [[$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169711&oldid=165582 * JIT * (+32)
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14:28:14 <ais523> random thought: is running a sequence of iconv commands in a loop Turing-complete? it feels like character encodings are complex enough that surely some of them must have the ability to do computation when misinterpreted as other character encodings
14:28:52 <ais523> iconv + tr probably is, iconv on its own suffers from maybe not being able to map characters the way you'd want to map them
14:38:13 <esolangs> [[Exoshell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169712&oldid=169707 * Keymaker * (+392) /* Program and execution */
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14:45:23 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1336.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
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15:29:53 <korvo> avih: There's a relevant Perlis: "Programmers are not to be measured by their ingenuity and their logic but by the completeness of their case analysis." Same deal with compiler idioms.
15:30:06 <korvo> Oh, wait, there's another: "Get into a rut early: Do the same process the same way. Accumulate idioms. Standardize. The only difference(!) between Shakespeare and you was the size of his idiom list - not the size of his vocabulary."
15:33:13 <korvo> I mean, it's not common to find folks who know what "dun" means (it means dull, waxy, pale, untanned); Shakespeare's vocabulary was daunting. But it also was typical for the time among learned people; plenty of folks could understand and appreciate his writing.
15:35:14 <ais523> Shakespeare just invented new words when necessary, though
15:35:30 <ais523> so some of them wouldn't have been known by the audience at the time (but they could probably work them out(
15:38:49 <korvo> Sure. The legend is that he aggressively borrowed words; the audience would have known "bandit" from Italian, for example, or "uncomfortable" from the standard Germanic un- prefix attached to "comfortable". What's more interesting to me are the noun phrases like "cold-blooded".
15:39:05 <korvo> The legend is also that he came up with words like "bump" and "swag", but that beggars belief.
15:40:57 <ais523> this is one luxury we don't have in programming, we can't just invent a word without defining it, or the computer won't understand it
15:44:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Square-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169713 * * (+139) Created page with "So a Turing-complete language can be non-Square-complete? ~~~~"
15:45:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Square-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169714&oldid=169713 * Corbin * (+210) Yes, but.
16:04:07 <korvo> Still thinking about that. Mostly to see the details of the analogy. Invented words aren't automatically understood; we have a couple different layers of analysis (memetic, phonetic, whatever Werniecke's area does, acoustic) that go into word recognition, and each of those layers is independently trained.
16:04:52 <korvo> (I'm somewhat sensitive to this because I have auditory processing issues; I *can't* recognize new words easily. I need to hear the phoenetics multiple times, I have no idea how to spell them, and I don't know what words might mean in context.)
16:05:33 <korvo> On the other side, computers don't understand anything. We do have a notion of opcodes, ISA, and executable text; but there's no sense in which the computer refuses to understand unknown opcodes. It has a full specification of how those behave: they don't!
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16:06:24 <korvo> And if we subscribe to the theory that all machines are weird then the computer's understanding is irrelevant; what matters is that *we* divide the opcodes into the worlds of "understandable" and "weird" based on whether *we* understand the effects of those codes.
16:12:16 <DOS_User_webchat> <ais523> this is one luxury we don't have in programming, we can't just invent a word without defining it, or the computer won't understand it
16:12:41 <DOS_User_webchat> im a human and very often i need words i dont know to be defined tbh
16:13:15 <ais523> we do that all the time in this channel
16:15:40 <esolangs> [[Q!?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169715 * * (+950) Created page with "'''Q!?''' is a 2D [[Turing tarpit]] made by [[User:]]. {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command !! What it does |- | ^ || Moves execution up. |- | v || Moves execution down. |- | < || Moves execution to the left. |- | > || Moves execution to the right. |- | g || Goes back the
16:15:55 <esolangs> [[Q!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169716&oldid=169715 * * (-6) /* Turing completeness */
16:17:14 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169717&oldid=169353 * * (+38) /* Survey */
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16:20:31 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169718&oldid=169717 * Corbin * (-38) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/169717|169717]] by [[Special:Contributions/|]] ([[User talk:|talk]]): Too large to be a tarpit. Also, please don't add stuff to this list until it's proven TC and implemented; it's already too big and I'm still trying to pare it down.
16:29:22 <ais523> hmm, I wonder whether Esimpl is a Turing tarpit
16:29:39 <korvo> Hm. I double-checked [[Turing tarpit]]'s history, and found something I never quite answered. *Why* did the study of Turing tarpits decline? What happened in the mid-60s to completely change people's opinions about the worthiness of minimal machines?
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16:30:07 <ais523> I think they were hoping it would give some fundamental insight, then decided it wouldn't – but I don't know anything more beyond that
16:30:50 <ais523> I've been studying Turing tarpits possibly more than anyone else, and the insights have been interesting but probably not what the computer scientists of the day were hoping for
16:31:00 <korvo> There's two obvious candidates in the history. The first one is the development of ALGOL. I don't understand exactly how this could have catalyzed a change in research, but maybe it sucked the air out of other ventures.
16:32:11 <korvo> The second one, which is more compelling to me, is the development of MOSFET techniques for integrated circuits. WP says that MOSFETs outpaced older techniques in 1964, and that's also the year that the first commercial product based on the tech came out: https://www.computerhistory.org/siliconengine/first-commercial-mos-ic-introduced/
16:33:06 <ais523> hmm, so your theory is along the lines of "computers got powerful enough for higher-level languages to become more obviously useful, and that made lower-level languages seem less useful"
16:33:21 <korvo> ais523: It definitely does seem like people were disappointed. In USA history, there's this concept of Great Disappointment, where a bunch of people predicted that the world would end. When it didn't end, they became very bitter and splintered into a bunch of other movements, which still claimed that the world was ending, but in more subtle ways.
16:33:28 <korvo> Yayimhere: Good morning.
16:33:31 <ais523> but normally the people writing high-level languages and the people studying low-level languages are different
16:33:48 <korvo> ais523: That certainly lines up with the quotes from Minksy and Perlis that I've got on the article, but that could be cherry-picking or Great Man Syndrome.
16:34:27 <ais523> it's also possible that they *got* some results which weren't what they wanted
16:34:38 <korvo> ais523: Right! I think of people like Hopper as climbing a ladder of abstraction, while plenty of other folks stuck to electrical engineering and the nitty-gritty of building components at scale. In the 1950s a computer had to be installed by a team of techs, it had a dedicated operator and cleaning crew, etc.
16:35:06 <ais523> I know what reducing a language's expressive power looks like (to make it easier to implement), sometimes I've seriously fought for really minor points of expressive power (e.g. Acyclic Tag compared to regular cyclic tag)
16:35:14 <ais523> even without having any obvious application for them in mind
16:35:40 <ais523> I imagine that can be a bit disheartening if you think that repeatedly reducing expressive power would get you down to some fundamental "simplest possible programming language"
16:36:05 <ais523> after a while they start to become more complicated to describe, despite being easy to implement (e.g. cyclic tag is elegant in a way that Acyclic Tag is not)
16:36:11 <korvo> Yeah. Minsky's program, for example. Minsky finally succeeded in writing a very small universal Turing-machine program sometime around then, and didn't learn anything from the venture. Today, we'd probably think of it as a recreational activity. Maybe it's one of those bits of maths that *became* recreational as computers advanced, like how mental math for taking roots is no longer popular.
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16:37:05 <ais523> what I got out of the exercise was an improved ability to prove things TC, but that isn't obviously useful
16:37:18 <ais523> I mean, it's useful for an admin of the Esolang wiki, but most people aren't in that situation
16:37:37 <korvo> That's definitely another possibility, although computational complexity wasn't developed enough for that. Maybe there's Kuhnian incommensurability in how they saw the programming landscape. I know that even today, lots of maths folks think of TMs as being the "simplest" such machine, rather than one that emulates pen and paper.
16:37:57 <Yayimhere> korvo: btw, if you care, then you'll be happy to know my parents have forced me to use my programming skills for something that isnt esolangs
16:38:04 <ais523> you can go both simpler and more elegant than TMs very easily
16:39:10 <korvo> ais523: Oh, none of this inquiry is to critique what you're working on. I'm wholly focused on this question of what happened from 1961 to 1966 or so. To quote a fictional detective, it *vexes* me.
16:39:41 <ais523> but the most I can to do help is explain the outcomes I've personally observed doing similar research in the hope that it gives some insight into the other people who were doing that
16:40:04 <ais523> 1961 is recent enough that it might be possible to just find someone who was there at the time and ask
16:40:18 <korvo> I think that your work is super-important frontier work, in addition to the contributions you make to foundations. We do need researchers. If we're going to cut off a line of research then I'd like to understand why we did that.
16:40:42 <ais523> I don't know whether it's important or not, I do it anyway
16:41:02 <ais523> if it is important, that's a bonus
16:41:13 <korvo> Yayimhere: Yay! But also if that other thing is school, then I know that that can be very boring. I remember writing programs on my calculator to help me in with math and science class.
16:41:33 <ais523> one thing that I've historically neglected is performance, there are double-exponentials everywhere in my work
16:41:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169719&oldid=169109 * * (+110)
16:41:53 <ais523> I have been trying to care more about it recently
16:42:08 <Yayimhere> korvo: thankfully it isnt, its making a gamme
16:42:16 <Yayimhere> though I think I might make it in like
16:42:26 <esolangs> [[Q!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169720&oldid=169716 * * (+15)
16:42:37 <Yayimhere> a Malbolge or Brainf*ck assembly language
16:42:37 <ais523> partly because I think it's "less solved" than pure TCness is, and less investigated in the esolang community (although probably more investigated in academic papers)
16:43:19 <ais523> I would advise not trying to write a game in Malbolge (or indeed write anything else in Malbolge)
16:43:32 <Yayimhere> (though I will still be active in the esolanging community, since I landed an esoteric.codes interview)
16:43:51 <ais523> that's how I first got into esolangs, it didn't work out well in terms of writing the Malbolge programs specifically
16:44:01 <ais523> but it did get me far enough to observe INTERCAL
16:44:18 <Yayimhere> one thing im *not* doing is intercal
16:44:47 <ais523> now I'm wondering how many INTERCAL programs are intended as games, probably not that many of them
16:45:07 <ais523> but yes, INTERCAL is a bit dated at this point
16:45:19 <ais523> it mostly exists as a platform for adding jokes, but you need something to parody
16:45:47 <ais523> and I'm not sure that many modern languages have features that are worth parodying, which is a shame
16:46:41 <ais523> maybe something like Rust's borrow-checker would be fun to parody, but I'm not sure how you would create something that superficially seems like a borrow checker and can do a basic impression of its most common uses, and then breaks spectacularly when you try to use it for something more complicated
16:46:48 <ais523> (which is how most of INTERCAL's features work)
16:47:47 <ais523> I think my favourite INTERCAL jokes are the ones where we just use a tool correctly for its intended purpose, in situations where nobody else would sanely do that
16:48:24 <ais523> like, C-INTERCAL has as far as I know a fully correct autoconf+automake setup, it took me months of learning to figure that out and required using the tools in ways they're hardly ever used in practice
16:49:19 <Yayimhere> my favorite feature of interval is ABSTAIN
16:49:41 <ais523> by line number or by gerund? or both?
16:50:10 <ais523> I like ABSTAIN too, but the two uses of it are extremely different
16:50:22 <Yayimhere> ais523: I think its by line number
16:51:02 <ais523> line number is by far the computationally more interesting version
16:51:08 <ais523> gerund is the better joke but not very practical in practice
16:51:26 <Yayimhere> lemme check which is which real fast
16:51:40 <ais523> line number is DO ABSTAIN FROM (10) or the like
16:51:45 <ais523> gerund is DO ABSTAIN FROM CALCULATING or the like
16:52:45 <ais523> actually this is why I don't like IGNORE, it's basically the boring version of ABSTAIN
16:53:23 <ais523> it makes variable read-only
16:53:30 <ais523> attempts to write to them just get ignored
16:53:40 <ais523> you can undo it with REMEMBER
16:53:55 <Yayimhere> ais523: ok that is a *little* funny
16:55:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169721&oldid=169719 * Corbin * (+1155) Good question! It wholly depends on the underlying models.
16:56:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169722&oldid=169721 * Corbin * (+62) Add topic headings.
16:58:34 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169723&oldid=162876 * Corbin * (+132) /* Completeness */ Clearly indicate the open question.
17:02:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Dango Language Logo.png]]": author chose not to release to the public domain
17:03:47 <esolangs> [[File talk:Dango Language Logo.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169724&oldid=169327 * Ais523 * (+139) now deleted
17:09:08 <esolangs> [[Underun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169725 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+628) Created page with "'''Underun''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. It combines the [[Unlambda operators]] <code>d & c</code> with [[Sea]]'s <code>&</code>, [[Underloads]] <code>() and ~</code> and a special operator <code>.</code>. == Rewrite rul
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17:09:24 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169726&oldid=169725 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0)
17:09:34 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169727&oldid=169726 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1)
17:12:41 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169728&oldid=169727 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+170) categories
17:13:24 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169729&oldid=169728 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2)
17:16:19 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169730&oldid=169729 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+70) /* Rewrite rules */ add brackets and d as a rewrite rule
17:19:15 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169731&oldid=169577 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+14) /* esolangs */
17:20:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169732&oldid=108696 * Corbin * (+2816) /* Qualifying further additions */ new section
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17:20:28 <Yayimhere> How much agreement needs to happen before a category is created?
17:20:52 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169733&oldid=169731 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+11) /* esolangs */
17:20:54 <korvo> An admin needs to be okay with it, more or less.
17:21:34 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169734&oldid=169733 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* esolangs */
17:22:10 <ais523> it basically comes down to "will the admins, looking at the discussion, think it's unapproved"
17:22:30 <ais523> also whether the name is right, renaming a category is difficult so if one gets created at the wrong name it's best to delete it before it gets too many pages
17:22:34 <korvo> What categories are you itching for? I've been waiting for a while, but I've accepted that e.g. five is not enough for a category.
17:22:37 <Yayimhere> well then, do you think counter based is unapproved?
17:22:42 <ais523> no, I think it's approved
17:22:47 <ais523> but it'll be a lot of work to find all the pages that go there
17:22:58 <ais523> it was proposed a whlie ago, some people liked it, nobody disliked it
17:23:00 <Yayimhere> I can *try* and do *some* of that task
17:23:07 <ais523> there are plenty of languages that fit
17:23:25 <ais523> I'm not sure how long it'd take to go through the whole language list, we used to be able to do that but it's quite long nowadays
17:23:57 <ais523> don't try yet, we will want a precise definition on the category description page
17:24:05 <ais523> and then to add languages that fit the definition
17:24:22 <korvo> ais523: Perfect's the enemy of good; I agree with Keymaker that it can be done incrementally. There are many pages with redlinked categories. The Featured Article mechanism is meant to indicate that a page is perfect; otherwise, it's okay.
17:24:55 <korvo> TBQH just deleting [[language list]] would be a great move. It could be done today.
17:25:22 <ais523> this is one of the admin tasks I'd be doing if I had more capacity to concentrate (which I don't have right now, maybe later)
17:25:23 <int-e> TBQH = TBH + q = quite
17:25:34 <korvo> To Be Quite Honest. Just IRC slang.
17:25:35 <ais523> I've been awake for 17 hours already at this point and need to stay up a bit longer
17:25:56 <ais523> and 17 hours awake is not the right point at which to do complex admin actions
17:26:25 <korvo> Oh! No worries. I'm not asking for edits right now. Quoting Zen of Python, "Now is better than never. But never is often better than *right now*."
17:26:29 <Yayimhere> how do you have the ability to be on here like
17:27:26 <ais523> it's basically just idling, may as well have my client connected to IRC in case anyone says anything is better
17:27:37 <ais523> * anyone says anything intersting
17:27:43 <korvo> Because we're adults working at computers. People tend to have chat windows open when they work at computers. (If you want a wild rabbit hole, look up why stock traders and big bankers *cannot* have chat windows open. They do it anyway and often get in trouble for it.)
17:27:54 <ais523> OK so this is why you don't do complex things after 17 hours awake :-D
17:27:59 <ais523> that was quite the typo
17:29:25 <ais523> korvo: I should make a todo list for big esolang admin-related changes
17:29:42 <ais523> deleting the language list and replacing it with the semi-serious language list would, I think, be an improvement (and fix the silly name)
17:29:56 <korvo> Yayimhere: Not to recommend my career path, but by the time I was 17, I spent part of my school day in the computer lab, working to maintain several hundred Windows machines for my fellow students. Chat windows were a standard part of that.
17:29:57 <ais523> but that would mean being more careful about the SSLL's inclusion criteria
17:30:32 <ais523> Yayimhere: if you ever meet a sysadmin they will tell you not to become one yourself, korvo isn't the first sysadmin I've seen that sentiment from
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17:31:46 <korvo> ais523: I can start an articles-for-deletion-esque process. We'll start with stuff that ought to be deleted per policy: copyright violations, requested deletions, redirects from eso namespace. I don't want to start the whole dogpile system that WP uses, nor the whole secret-policing part of it.
17:32:02 <korvo> ...I'm always just a little slow with the typing.
17:33:06 <korvo> Yayimhere: So, there were other kids that also spent all day in the computer lab. The thing was, they were *using* it. Some of that was classes that we all took, like how to use word processors and spreadsheets. Some of it was for kids that were much more popular than me; in the USA we have "yearbooks" which record what happened, and there was a constructed popularity system that they were constantly managing for the yearbook.
17:34:03 <korvo> What I'm saying is that if you aim to maintain infrastructure, then you'll always be infra-; you'll always be working to support other folks. It's noble but also infuriating because your peers will take that infrastructure for granted.
17:35:29 <korvo> The tradeoff is in the name. A sysadmin knows about *systems*; that means disciplines like "systems thinking" and "distributed systems" which sound academic but are extremely relevant to today's interconnected world. Also, we are *administrators*; we have the responsibility of keeping things afloat, and with responsibility there comes the power of decision-making.
17:36:27 <korvo> Like, a non-trivial portion of why I'm allowed to just edit eso namespace and generally don't get reverted is because I understand what a system shaped like English WP is like, and I understand what it means to admin that sort of site. After being an admin for so long, I understand how to make non-admin changes to the system, too.
17:37:02 <korvo> I'm allowed to discuss power precisely because I'm not holding it. I'm allowed to be flippant about big decisions precisely because I can't actually flip the switches.
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17:39:00 <korvo> Yayimhere: Oh, and also, I *discuss* nearly everything I plan to do. If I'm going to write even 1000 chars, I will usually make at least a note in IRC first. I'll also plan it with a scratch pad sometimes, thinking about what to edit before I start editing.
17:39:25 <korvo> I recognize that this is part of the luxury of being in chat. That's also why I leave notes on talk pages for others.
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18:08:07 <b_jonas> “<korvo> it's not common to find folks who know what ‘dun’ means” => yeah, https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html sounds like it invented words for just the punchline
18:08:34 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169735&oldid=165367 * Aadenboy * (-1238) rewrite article
18:09:39 <int-e> Hmm do I bother with AoC this year?
18:10:43 <int-e> Might as well, I guess.
18:11:16 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169736&oldid=169022 * Corbin * (+1742) /* Completeness */ Mirror [[Turing tarpit]] more closely. Split into subsections. List open questions. These are off the top of my head and I may need to do another literature review.
18:12:56 <b_jonas> “*we* divide the opcodes […] based on whether * we* understand the effects of those codes.” => I think we divide opcodes (or sometimes full instructions) to defined and undefined based on whether we can trust that future CPUs won't behave completely differently on them. The undefined ones either ignore the prefix or some bits in them, or always trap.
18:13:22 <korvo> int-e: I'm going to save up my strength for the langjam. I'm currently at the same place as yumaikas in https://lobste.rs/s/gtcrvu/langjam_gamejam_build_programming#c_mbchk9 where I'm not sure if just building a Forth is okay.
18:13:50 <korvo> b_jonas: What a perfect reference. Nice memory.
18:15:02 <korvo> So, I think that humans doing something because of the current spec, like iterating on it to make a future spec, is still something that *we humans* are doing. It certainly is an oscillating action in spacetime: we influence the chips, the chips influence us, we influence the chips, etc.
18:17:23 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169737&oldid=169735 * Corbin * (+90) /* Usage */ Used in Laconic and NQL to write small Turing machines.
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18:20:30 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169738&oldid=169737 * Aadenboy * (+25) format as list + category
18:22:55 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169739&oldid=169738 * Aadenboy * (+11) /* Operations */ jank
18:24:39 <b_jonas> “*Why* did the study of Turing tarpits decline?” => I don't think it declined, because a lot of people seem to be interested in Brainfuck even today.
18:25:51 <korvo> Yeah. I think it shifted from being an academic study purely of Turing machines, to being a study of TMs and also Post machines and Minsky machines, to studying cellular automata as well, to the current day.
18:27:11 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169740&oldid=169739 * Aadenboy * (-29) /* Usage */ rewrite sentenceI think it's a queue?
18:27:21 <korvo> I suppose I'm looking for some strong statement like a 1967 paper saying "Following Böhm's 1966 theorem, we hereby abandon Turing machines in favor of flowchart programming", or a 1965 paper saying "Following the commercial explosion of MOSFETs, manual assembly of circuits appears destined for the museum halls"
18:30:01 <int-e> korvo: It's only 12 days now and I certainly won't rush it.
18:30:20 <int-e> Fun... I messed up the bonus part on the first try.
18:31:49 <korvo> Yayimhere: No worries. I'm only guessing based on the research that I've already done. It's frustrating because of what Robert Evans calls "the fact that back then there were only like a dozen guys who all knew each other", an instance of the Friendship Paradox.
18:32:52 <korvo> Lucky 10000 if you haven't seen this before, BTW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox It's the phenomenon that your friends are usually more popular than you. It's statistically true for most binary relations.
18:33:17 <Yayimhere> for some reason I have an urge to make an oisc instruction
18:34:25 <int-e> . o O ( which Robert Evans )
18:36:20 <korvo> int-e: Oh wow, there's even a disambiguation page. TIL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Evans_(journalist) this one, a journalist focused on investigating bad people. He podcasts roughly one biography per week, and one of the recurring themes of 20th century history is that some specific intermediaries keep showing up due to having massive social circles.
18:37:00 <int-e> korvo: I do know that one. And it did sound like something he'd say. I just didn't expect him to come up in a TCS context :P
18:38:22 <korvo> Yayimhere: Malbolge's OISC is actually a great example of how to go naturally to a ZISC. We might call the one instruction something like "Decrypt, Maybe Input, Maybe Output, Permute". The ZISC hardwires that one instruction.
18:38:38 <korvo> Because the OISC doesn't have any arguments, it might as well be a ZISC; that's what I mean by "natural".
18:39:57 <Yayimhere> now I actually came up with an interesting way of doing a conditional ZISC
18:40:16 <korvo> int-e: I know two English WP admins. The other is David Gerard. The common link is that I'm anti-crank, and that ends up intersecting with anti-grift and anti-TREACLES efforts, which heavily overlap with Evans' anti-fascist research. (I *am* anti-fascist, but for more definitional reasons.)
18:40:39 <b_jonas> I wish they studied a Tarpit that was at least somewhat better. Like BytePusher, though it's not technically a Turing Tarpit but an interesting OISC with bounded memory.
18:40:42 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169741&oldid=169740 * Aadenboy * (+246) /* Operations */ note about A_length
18:41:05 <korvo> Yayimhere: Well, this is all very natural. It's part of why I don't really like talking about ZISC as if it were active research; it's more like a perspective.
18:42:17 <korvo> Yayimhere: Say you've got a CPU, like the x86 or ARM in your current computer. We could say that it's an OISC in the sense that it has *one* behavior, something like "Fetch, Decode, ALU, Memory, Retire". Yes, that's just what the programmable pipeline does, but when it's hooked up to memory it cannot do anything else.
18:42:58 <korvo> And we can say that that's a ZISC since we can't change that one behavior; it's got *zero* programmability in terms of its circuits. The only thing that you can really change is the initial contents of memory.
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19:20:31 <esolangs> [[Nein.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169742&oldid=169700 * Ractangle * (+68)
19:21:19 <esolangs> [[Nein.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169743&oldid=169742 * Ractangle * (+1) i meant shown
19:25:15 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169744&oldid=163597 * Ractangle * (-144)
19:25:27 <b_jonas> "how you would create something that superficially seems like a borrow checker and can do a basic impression of its most common uses, and then breaks spectacularly when you try to use it for something more complicated" => don't allow reference members in user-defined algebraic types. that makes it much easier to implement the borrow checker and reason about it, but programs will have to do pointer to
19:25:33 <b_jonas> reference unsafe casts for most of the complicated uses. but I don't think this works as a joke.
19:29:02 <b_jonas> "People tend to have chat windows open when they work at computers." => which you can tell because a lot of the chat parts of the internet that I frequent are more active during weekdays when users are working, even though you'd expect that they're more active during weekend when they have free time.
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19:30:02 <b_jonas> I'm not a sysadmin and I'll also tell you not to become a sysadmin.
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19:30:36 <b_jonas> though admittedly my father is kind of a sysadmin, but he does the parts that avoid a lot of the drawbacks of being a sysadmin
19:35:00 <b_jonas> "Following the commercial explosion of MOSFETs, manual assembly of circuits appears destined for the museum halls" => true, there are no longer mostly american indian women working on weaving core memory arrays. only hobbyists make circuits by hand.
19:36:15 <b_jonas> (at least in the scale of tiny parts of circuits; my co-workers are still building large circuits for work but they are connecting big pre-manufactured parts with wires or cables, not soldering components onto a circuit board)
19:51:49 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169745&oldid=169741 * Aadenboy * (+4) fix expression
19:53:00 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169746&oldid=169745 * Aadenboy * (-13)
20:00:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169747&oldid=169628 * Corbin * (+220) /* Should we make a category of speedlangs? */
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20:45:56 <esolangs> [[Dision]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169748&oldid=168877 * Buckets * (+2)
20:46:52 <esolangs> [[Esorn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169749&oldid=167899 * Buckets * (+0)
21:04:40 <esolangs> [[UnicodeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169750&oldid=167392 * Esolangist alt * (+1070) Esolangist alt
21:16:54 <esolangs> [[UnicodeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169751&oldid=169750 * * (+249) /* Basic Latin */
21:27:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169752&oldid=169732 * * (+152) /* BinaryLanguage should not be a tarpit */ new section
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21:31:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169753&oldid=169691 * Buckets * (+13)
21:31:50 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169754&oldid=169692 * Buckets * (+12)
21:32:06 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169755&oldid=169754 * Buckets * (+0)
21:32:14 <esolangs> [[Nocent]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169756 * Buckets * (+2051) Created page with "Nocent Is An Esoteric Programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | b || Push The following Number if it is One of The Following directions. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Directions !! Number Representation
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21:36:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169757&oldid=169747 * * (+256) /* Befunge derivatives */ new section
21:38:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:GolfScratch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169758 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+310) Doubt of Turing completeness
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21:47:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:GolfScratch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169759&oldid=169758 * Ais523 * (+403) not obviously Turing-incomplete but I'm doubtful
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22:14:15 <esolangs> [[M]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169760 * * (+764) Created page with "M is an esolang made by [[User:]]. It has the following command and its the only command: M x, y, z Which means if x <= y, x+y then jump to z. It also creates branches if x > y, where it does not jump but branches and the M command acts differently. The x input is the result given
22:19:43 <esolangs> [[M]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169761&oldid=169760 * * (+21) Making it turing complete atleast
22:26:01 <esolangs> [[6673846771]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169762&oldid=116474 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+13) Rectified the second Hello World! program which would print the text Heloo World!.
22:28:00 <esolangs> [[6673846771]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169763&oldid=169762 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+240) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the 6673846771 programming language on GitHub and supplemented several page category tags.
22:31:38 <esolangs> [[6673846771]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169764&oldid=169763 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+371) Added a repeating cat program as a fourth example.
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22:52:49 <esolangs> [[Translated Shakespeare/UPARROW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169765 * * (+5608) Created page with "1. Take the Shakespeare Hello World program: <pre> The Infamous Hello World Program. Romeo, a young man with a remarkable patience. Juliet, a likewise young woman of remarkable grace. Ophelia, a remarkable woman much in dispute with Hamlet. Hamlet, the
22:58:50 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169766&oldid=169671 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+50)
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00:10:51 <esolangs> [[Microwave]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169767&oldid=137054 * PhilipNaveenn * (+2356) Updated Docs.
00:11:38 <esolangs> [[Microwave]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169768&oldid=169767 * PhilipNaveenn * (+13) /* External Resources */
00:11:59 <esolangs> [[Microwave]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169769&oldid=169768 * PhilipNaveenn * (+7) /* External Resources */
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05:06:33 <esolangs> [[Wuht]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169770&oldid=165539 * Jk.NDC * (+19)
05:08:22 <esolangs> [[User:Jk.NDC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169771&oldid=165485 * Jk.NDC * (+90) /* semi-Weekly Riddle */
05:08:29 <esolangs> [[User:Jk.NDC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169772&oldid=169771 * Jk.NDC * (+0) /* semi-Weekly Riddle */
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10:23:27 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169773&oldid=169730 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Rewrite rules */
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10:41:53 <ais523> I can't think of any recently (apart from the ones Keymaker just posted)
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10:47:19 <b_jonas> Yayimhere: Bytepusher, and think about how you can set up arithmetic on it with just a bunch of 256 byte long tables without needing a full 65536 byte sized table
10:47:36 <b_jonas> I think it's an interesting exercise and when I first read about the machine I hadn't realized yet that it's possible
10:48:13 <b_jonas> I still don't quite like the machine, but I hate it less than when I had thought you'd be wasting your precious address space on several full 64 kilobyte sized tables
10:49:26 <b_jonas> TODO: add Bytepusher to my list
10:51:12 <b_jonas> Yayimhere: also maybe just look at the short notes in https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas/List and read whichever language has a short description catches your fancy, though I admit those descriptions are often rather opaque to anyone but me
10:51:30 <ais523> the descriptions seem fine to me
10:51:50 <Yayimhere> b_jonas: as i am not the biggest fancier of virtual machines, im just gonna do that
10:51:59 <ais523> fwiw I think oerjan proved Countercall sub-TC but can't remember how the proof worked
10:53:03 <ais523> Xigxag used to be lumped with Dupdog as members of the "this is probably non-TC but hard to prove" family, they're fairly similar languages (but Xigxag is a lot more elegant)
10:56:23 <ais523> actually Dupdog is pretty reminiscent of Smullyan's esolangs, but I don't think it has enough commands to be TC
11:05:09 <Yayimhere> has anyone made like an "operator solving language"
11:05:34 <Yayimhere> a language that creates operators by describing them by other operators
11:05:43 <Yayimhere> and "solves" for them by those descriptions
11:10:38 <b_jonas> you'll probably want a few 4k (or at least 1k) byte sized tables for speed, but everything together should take no more than even on 64k table
11:11:30 <b_jonas> ais52#: thank you, but you may have more of the necessary background than Yayim
11:11:50 <b_jonas> wait, oerjan proved Countercall sub-TC? this I'll be interested to hear
11:11:56 <ais523> Yayimhere: that idea reminds me of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol)
11:12:17 <ais523> b_jonas: I think the proof might be in the logs somewhere, I don't remember what it was and didn't write it odwn
11:12:34 <Yayimhere> ais523: thats pretty close to what ive begun work on
11:13:29 <ais523> I think Clue might have been the first time we had two esolangs with the same name
11:14:13 <b_jonas> yeah, I'm guilty about that too, I think I proved that dofuck without io (brainfuck without ui with bracket loops executing at least once) is turing-complete and you can translate brainfuck to it reasonably, but haven't written the proof down, there's only a few details in the chat logs
11:15:23 <Yayimhere> is there any name for a stack operator that, for the stack elements `A,B,C,D` returns `A,D,C,B`?
11:15:28 <ais523> b_jonas: I think I did that too
11:15:37 <ais523> Yayimhere: which end's the top of the stack?
11:15:55 <Yayimhere> ais523: the rightmost element in this case
11:16:09 <ais523> I vaguely remember seeing that before but don't know offhand whether it has a name
11:17:10 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's been independently proved multiple times
11:17:45 <b_jonas> I also haven't written down much about some of the restricted Amycus and Amicus variants, and I've forgotten what I found by now
11:18:28 <b_jonas> there's at least one interesting variant where I couldn't determine how much power it has
11:21:23 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169774&oldid=169718 * None1 * (-50) /* Survey */
11:39:24 <ais523> @pl \f x y z -> f z y x
11:40:39 <lambdabot> (a1 -> a2 -> b -> c) -> a1 -> b -> a2 -> c
11:41:20 <ais523> of course, functions parameters aren't actually stacks, usually
11:41:25 <ais523> but the terminology can be similar sometimes
11:41:44 <ais523> I've experimented with implementing a stack as a long list of function arguments
11:42:22 <Yayimhere> is that not quite similar to the underload-as-rewriting rule table?
11:42:26 <ais523> it almost works but there are practical problems with handling the bottom of the stack and doing things other than stack processing
11:42:39 <ais523> it is, it's very similar, that's what made me experiment with it
11:44:15 <Yayimhere> I think just have made my language uncomputable
11:50:22 <Yayimhere> I wonder if underload is tc if : is replaced with :*
11:50:32 <HackEso> :*`? No such file or directory
12:02:29 <ais523> hmm, that's interesting
12:02:48 <ais523> I think it's still TC with :* because you could do a:*^ as the equivalent of :
12:03:08 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a:*^S(-)SS(-)SS
12:03:31 <ais523> and with :^ I think you can do a:^~^~
12:03:50 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a:^~^~S(-)SS(-)SS
12:04:29 <ais523> there's some amount of slack in Underload to make new commands by combining other commands
12:04:56 <ais523> 7 makes use of that, it arranges the commands somewhat differently from Underload but you can still (sort of) go back and forth
12:05:29 <Yayimhere> I wonder if there exists a turing complete "oisc" of underload
12:10:26 <ais523> OISCs kind-of need arguments to work correctly
12:10:50 <ais523> otherwise as soon as you have a non-halting program, all longer programs also have to be non-halting
12:11:09 <Yayimhere> in `m^` m is sort of the only argument
12:11:55 <ais523> I suspect there are lots of fundamentally different ways to write a 2ISC without arguments
12:12:39 <ais523> TISC could be either two or three (or possibly ten)
12:13:17 <ais523> I think the names are jokes/parodies on RISC and CISC
12:13:47 <ais523> it's a processor where the machine code instructions are individually simple, and usually also orthogonal
12:13:59 <ais523> so you can use any command with any argument
12:14:25 <ais523> whereas CISCs tend to have both individually complicated instructions and lots of special cases
12:15:14 <ais523> CISC mostly ended up winning because modern processors tend to translate the machine code into a different format internally anyway, so the only real effect that the instruction format has is to change how small or large programs are
12:15:27 <ais523> and CISC is usually better-compressed
12:16:15 <ais523> that said, the two most popular processor architectures nowadays are x86-64 (CISC) and AArch64 (which is historically based on a RISC processor but I'm not sure how RISCy it still is)
12:16:58 <ais523> a few years ago basically everyone was on x86-64, but AArch64 has become surprisingly popular in a fairly short length of time and now they're both pretty reasonable architectures to target
12:19:13 <ais523> (this is for laptop/desktop computers, rather than smartphones)
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12:56:59 <fizzie> `blsq "L68 L30 R48 L5 R60 L55 L1 L99 R14 L82"wd 50Pp{g_**2&&-.jri.*pP.+100.%Pp}m[vvp\CL:z?L[ " not an auspicious beginning "vv
13:05:01 <ais523> at a wild guess, is this related to Advent of Code?
13:05:49 <ais523> I don't have any definitive evidence of this, but programs out of the blue in rarely-used languages in early December generally raise my suspicions
13:05:49 <fizzie> Yeah, it's the only reason I ever interact with Burlesque.
13:35:02 <esolangs> [[+-)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169775&oldid=148396 * None1 * (+2) /* + */
13:36:45 <esolangs> [[Load]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169776 * None1 * (+2496) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''load''' is yet [[oxen|another]] 4-instruction esolang invented by [[User:None1]], this time a real [[Turing tarpit]]. ==Memory== Seven accumulators: A-G are used. They contain unbounded ''signed'' integers. At first, A is 1 and others are 0. ==Commands== loa
13:37:09 <esolangs> [[Load]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169777&oldid=169776 * None1 * (+3) /* Commands */
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13:54:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:Load]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169778 * I am islptng * (+255) Created page with "Have a look at [[LinearModulo2]], also with 4 instructions(actually operators). There's also [[StackLinearModulo2]] which is likely more powerful but different. ~~~~"
13:56:37 <sorear> RISC and CISC are marketing terms from the early 1980s. Don't use them, they're actively harmful to understanding anything except that part of history
14:01:38 <sorear> RISC and CISC were ways of talking around VAX, a machine where a perfectly normal ADDL3 instruction can make 6 independent memory accesses, and the MIPS R2000, which was one of the first cut down enough for a single-chip implementation, even leaving out multiplies
14:02:24 <sorear> it was also one of the first single-chip microprocessors to use a pin grid array package large enough for a full 32-bit bus, which I think was more impactful than anything in the logical design
14:02:35 <sorear> nothing that exists today even slightly resembles either of them
14:03:22 <sorear> kids mentally map "x86" to "CISC" and "arm" to "RISC" and then try to apply the "lessons of the 1980s" in ways that don't actually make sense
14:07:02 <esolangs> [[ELEMENTARY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169779 * Ais523 * (+8020) about time this was documented it's likely of interest to a range of esoprogrammers, despite not having been constructed as an esolang in the traditional sense
14:07:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169780&oldid=169753 * Ais523 * (+17) /* E */ +[[ELEMENTARY]]
14:09:06 <sorear> early MIPS had fairly terrible code size partly because that was how things factored out with the 32 bit/cycle off-chip cache and partly because people weren't optimizing for "you want the bus to be idle as much as possible to save power" back then. 68k was suffering from a narrow bus so they had a much more immediate benefit from variable-length instructions
14:13:43 <esolangs> [[ELEMENTARY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169781&oldid=169779 * Ais523 * (+3) /* Syntax */ two typo fixes
14:14:23 <esolangs> [[Unfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169782&oldid=161516 * JIT * (+29)
14:16:35 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering whether the semi-serious language list's inclusion criterion should be "the language must be complete for a non-arbitrary computational class", so Turing-complete, PDA-complete, LBA-complete, ELEMENTARY-complete, or the like
14:17:06 <ais523> even FSM-complete languages are probably usually interesting, even though most of our finite-state languages aren't
14:17:35 <ais523> (and we should continue to allow languages that are almost TC but fail due to integer size / memory size limits)
14:27:23 <Yayimhere> though I think it might be hard for some languages, to *prove*
14:28:03 <ais523> right, I didn't realize BuzzFizz was LBA-complete until someone else pointed it out
14:28:12 <ais523> (I knew it was an LBA but not that it was complete, and thought it wasn't)
14:29:28 <ais523> linear-bounded automaton
14:32:56 <Yayimhere> how rare is it for a language to fall into its own computational class category
14:33:38 <ais523> it's pretty rare for it to do that in an interesting way
14:34:04 <ais523> uninteresting examples are common, though, example-based languages often have their own computational class
14:34:25 <ais523> because they only support one or two specific programs
14:35:34 <sorear> Is the type of reduction relevant or is that fully determined by the X-complete?
14:36:29 <ais523> Yayimhere: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Feed_the_Chaos most recently
14:37:07 <ais523> sorear: I think it's mostly obvious/uninteresting in practice, but I'm not sure it always is in theory, and there have been some awkward cases like the 2,3 Turing machine
14:40:18 <sorear> particularly awkward case since the nontrivial background puts it outside the usual _problem_ definition for turing machines; what I had in mind was more "Turing or Karp and what are the complexity limits on the reducer"
14:41:19 <ais523> for TC reductions you can usually just say "the reducer has to terminate" and then it's only an interesting problem in cases where it doesn't
14:41:36 <ais523> for lower computational classes that isn't necessarily enough, but it's pretty rare for people to try to cheat on that
14:41:56 <ais523> and I think it might still be enough for PDA/LBA but I'm not 100% sure (it isn't for FSM)
14:43:36 <sorear> I think "FSM" is only really interesting in the presence of I/O, so you can say that the reducer doesn't have access to I/O and handle it that way
14:44:04 <sorear> for LBAs you get into questions like "linear in what"
14:46:10 <ais523> I agree that FSMs are only interesting if they do I/O
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15:03:21 <esolangs> [[I/M Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169783&oldid=158916 * TBPO * (+38) /* Computational class */
15:04:05 <esolangs> [[4gn/]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169784&oldid=167314 * JIT * (+7)
15:07:45 <esolangs> [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169785&oldid=159083 * TBPO * (-140) /* Current strategy */
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15:08:06 <esolangs> [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169786&oldid=169785 * TBPO * (-288) /* Users */
15:08:13 <Yayimhere> I remembrered I made this a while ago, I wonder if its turing complete: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turtle_just_want_to_dig
15:09:10 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169787&oldid=140162 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-27) /* how it works */
15:09:22 <esolangs> [[Topple/Topple 1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169788&oldid=168106 * H33T33 * (+51)
15:11:15 <ais523> Yayimhere: I'm not sure if there's a way to have the value of a counter affect control flow
15:12:45 <Yayimhere> and can have multiple values since there can be multiple holes
15:13:52 <ais523> right, I meant the unbounded counter
15:14:12 <Yayimhere> you can also technically move the õ to the left and right
15:14:27 <Yayimhere> which mayhaps can be used as *some* sort of weird control flow
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15:15:43 <ais523> I think that probably doesn't work because if the top õ is in a position to move left or right, it can no longer be pushed downwards
15:16:08 <Yayimhere> ais523: it can, since the place moved two could be one where it could be pushed down
15:16:29 <ais523> Yayimhere: doesn't it prefer to move sideways rather than downwards, if it has a choice?
15:17:25 <ais523> so as long as there's space beside it (e.g. a space it just moved from) it'll always prefer to go back to that space rather than moving downwards
15:18:09 <ais523> this is the sort of thing I look for when trying to prove an esolang non-Turing-complete
15:18:31 <ais523> it is called the "arbitrary effect at an arbitary point" problem – the commands that make the language TC might exist, but you have no way to cause them to run at the correct moment
15:20:18 <Yayimhere> I think that mayhaps some interesting things are doable when using `>` since the pointer doesnt move let or right *with* the bug
15:28:18 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169789&oldid=169787 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+198) /* how it works */ add two commands that would be *very* useful.
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15:30:01 <ais523> I agree those are useful, but they don't help with TCness because eventually the bug will be pushed below all the ( and ) commands
15:30:44 <ais523> I'm wondering what would happen if the bugs preferred to go down rather than sideways
15:30:44 <Yayimhere> but im unsure if its too much modification too the point where it isnt close enough to the original language
15:30:55 <Yayimhere> ais523: that is interesting actually
15:31:03 <ais523> I'm still not sure it's TC but there are at least some interesting interactions between bugs then
15:33:17 <Yayimhere> maybe I did actually include it as such in the original definition
15:34:59 <esolangs> [[Turtle just want to dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169790&oldid=169789 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+50) /* how it works */
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15:54:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169791&oldid=169687 * * (+403) /* User:TBPO */ new section
15:57:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169792&oldid=169791 * Ais523 * (+320) /* User:TBPO */ probably the same person
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16:04:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:TBPO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169793&oldid=156721 * * (+86) /* Hey */ new section
16:04:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:TBPO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169794&oldid=169793 * * (+82) /* Hey */
16:15:25 <esolangs> [[Template:BG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169795&oldid=163973 * * (+6)
16:17:21 <esolangs> [[User:/Template:SignBRZ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169796 * * (+209) Created page with "{{SUBST:BG|green|[[User:|{{SUBST:FontColor|white|mario}}]]}}{{SUBST:BG|red|[[User talk:|{{SUBST:FontColor|white|maker}}]]}}"
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16:24:58 <esolangs> [[User:/Template:SignBRZ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169797&oldid=169796 * * (+1535)
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16:26:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169798&oldid=168649 * * (+1545)
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16:27:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169799&oldid=169798 * * (+12)
16:28:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169800&oldid=169799 * Ais523 * (+597) /* Signature length */ new section
16:29:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169801&oldid=169800 * * (+1817)
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16:32:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169802&oldid=169801 * Ais523 * (+445) an example of the length issue
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16:36:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169803&oldid=169802 * * (+592)
16:38:42 <esolangs> [[User:/esolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169804 * * (+237) Created page with "[[!itoe]] [[]] [[100]] [[15]] [[Plushie-incomplete]] [[Nullinullinull]] [[Egg]] [[Brainbonk]] [[Ntsomgivl]] [[Bomberman]] [[Brainfuck, but every + is replaced with the FitnessGram Pacer Test]] [[Gstvnts]] [[Q!?]] [[M]]"
16:39:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169805&oldid=169803 * * (+0)
16:40:07 <esolangs> [[User:/Template:SignBRZ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169806&oldid=169797 * * (-1243)
16:46:04 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169807&oldid=168793 * Aadenboy * (-33) /* anything else */
16:46:35 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169808&oldid=169807 * Aadenboy * (+7) /* anything else */
16:47:26 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169809&oldid=169808 * Aadenboy * (+0) /* anything else */ update date
16:49:03 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169810&oldid=168509 * * (+98) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/168381|168381]] by [[Special:Contributions/Sawyer.go0923|Sawyer.go0923]] ([[User talk:Sawyer.go0923|talk]])
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16:56:13 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Live stats]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169811&oldid=158554 * Aadenboy * (+3) we're now past 1,000 joke esolangs!
16:58:27 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Zerons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169812&oldid=165101 * Aadenboy * (+2) /* Solving */ rationalize fractions
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17:00:19 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169813&oldid=169809 * Aadenboy * (+47) /* anything else */ extra
17:01:41 <ais523> OK, I hadn't seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Aadenboy/Live_stats before and it's kind-of terrifying
17:02:13 <ais523> I knew there had been a lot of (mostly poor-quality) esolangs created, but hadn't really taken in the rate at which it's happening
17:05:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169814&oldid=169757 * Ais523 * (+468) /* Befunge derivatives */ a couple of reasons why this might not work
17:11:23 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169815&oldid=163283 * Aadenboy * (+173)
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17:59:44 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A002110 Primorial numbers (first definition): product of fi...
17:59:44 <lambdabot> [1,2,6,30,210,2310,30030,510510,9699690,223092870,6469693230,200560490130,74...
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18:02:50 <int-e> oh that still works, nice
18:12:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169816&oldid=169752 * Ractangle * (+243) /* BinaryLanguage should not be a tarpit */
18:14:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169817&oldid=169816 * Ractangle * (+1) /* BinaryLanguage should not be a tarpit */ I meant "hard"
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18:35:34 <esolangs> [[Collatz Multiverse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169818 * 5anz * (+2520) Created page with "The Collatz Conjecture suggests that if you take any number, and apply the rules that if it's odd, you multiply it by 3 and add 1, and if it's even, divide it by 2, you eventually get stuck in a 4-2-1-4-2-1 loop. The Collatz Multiverse is the concept that instea
18:37:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * * uploaded "[[File:Helloworldimagery.png]]"
18:42:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * * uploaded "[[File:Rule110.png]]"
18:42:52 <esolangs> [[IMAGERY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169821 * * (+283) Created page with "'''IMAGERY''' is an esolang made by [[User:]] to program with images. == Examples == === Hello, world! === [[File:Helloworldimagery.png|thumb]] === Nope. === [[File:Nope.png|thumb]] === Rule 110 === [[File:Rule110.png|thumb
18:43:30 <esolangs> [[IMAGERY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169822&oldid=169821 * * (+69)
18:44:50 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas/List]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169823&oldid=168080 * B jonas * (+250) BytePusher
18:45:25 <b_jonas> perlbot oeis_r 2,6,30,210,2310
18:45:36 <perlbot> b_jonas: A002110 Primorial numbers (first definition): product of first n primes. Sometimes written prime(n)#. (Formerly M1691 N0668)1, 2, 6, 30, 210, 2310, 30030, 510510, 9699690, 223092870, 6469693230, 200560490130, 7420738134810, 304250263527210, 13082761331670030, 614889782588491410, 32589158477190044730, 1922760350154212639070, 117288381359406970983270, 7858321551080267055879090
18:45:52 <esolangs> [[User:/esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169824&oldid=169804 * * (+13)
18:46:10 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169825&oldid=155098 * 5anz * (+130) /* Rhombitrihexagonal */
18:46:11 <b_jonas> int-e: ^ I recently added a user-defined implementation into perlbot. the builtin command oeis also works, but why rely on that when I can just define my own? this is a programmable bot after all
18:46:49 <b_jonas> hmm, there should be a space after the right parenthesis. I guess the HTML doesn't always have a space there so I should add one manually when there isn't
18:46:50 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169826&oldid=169825 * 5anz * (+22) /* External recourses */
18:47:01 <int-e> b_jonas: you've only mentioned this a dozen times, I KNOW
18:47:04 <esolangs> [[User:5anz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169827&oldid=169826 * 5anz * (-1) /* External recourses */
18:47:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169828&oldid=169817 * * (+610) /* BinaryLanguage should not be a tarpit */
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18:57:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169829&oldid=169828 * Corbin * (+231) /* BinaryLanguage should not be a tarpit */
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19:04:52 <esolangs> [[NumbersPlusWhat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169830&oldid=150192 * TheCatFromGithub * (+2) typos
19:05:28 <esolangs> [[Og]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169831&oldid=85865 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typo
19:05:51 <esolangs> [[OUI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169832&oldid=156561 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typo
19:06:16 <esolangs> [[Replace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169833&oldid=66875 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typo
19:06:58 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169834&oldid=139414 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typos
19:07:37 <esolangs> [[Drw]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169835&oldid=164206 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typo
19:08:17 <esolangs> [[FuckTheBit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169836&oldid=167443 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typo
19:08:52 <esolangs> [[Strang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169837&oldid=169138 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typo
19:09:16 <esolangs> [[CFCK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169838&oldid=167828 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typo
19:09:36 <esolangs> [[SMIL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169839&oldid=43393 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typo
19:10:00 <esolangs> [[MineFriff]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169840&oldid=99079 * TheCatFromGithub * (+1) typo
19:14:57 <esolangs> [[Bytemap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169841&oldid=74878 * TheCatFromGithub * (+2) typos
19:15:47 <esolangs> [[APOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169842&oldid=93141 * TheCatFromGithub * (+0) typo
19:20:59 <esolangs> [[Definition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169843&oldid=162903 * Ractangle * (-55)
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19:51:45 <esolangs> [[LIMITED]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169844&oldid=169674 * DadoDev * (+502) Added command set shrinking concept
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20:48:55 <esolangs> [[UnicodeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169845&oldid=169751 * Esolangist alt * (+111) Esolangist alt
20:54:08 <esolangs> [[UnicodeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169846&oldid=169845 * Esolangist alt * (+133) Esolangist alt
21:37:27 <esolangs> [[UnicodeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169847&oldid=169846 * * (+379)
21:54:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169848&oldid=169780 * Buckets * (+10)
21:55:21 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169849&oldid=169755 * Buckets * (+9)
21:55:35 <esolangs> [[Ags]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169850 * Buckets * (+1288) Created page with "Ags Is An Esoteric programming language Created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | PUSH m || It will Push the Next item Given To the program To stack m. |- | "" || Within the Quotes is a String and Will Be given To the prog
21:58:49 <zzo38> I used the name "translation list" for the key/value list where the keys specify languages, according to your suggestion of "translation database".
22:18:51 <esolangs> [[User:Deltayelta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169851 * Deltayelta * (+90) It's me :)
22:19:35 <esolangs> [[User:Deltayelta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169852&oldid=169851 * Deltayelta * (+1) Why do you have to do two newlines to get one???
22:21:48 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169853&oldid=169834 * Hakerh400 * (+15) /* Other AI-related esolangs */ Add the missing language
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22:27:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:Use of AI in esoteric languages]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169854 * Corbin * (+290) Created page with "So, is this supposed to be a historical collection akin to [[prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] or [[timeline of esoteric programming languages]], or is it a clearinghouse for language-model output? ~~~~"
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22:32:45 <esolangs> [[Iterate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169855&oldid=168623 * Aadenboy * (+68) /* Loop amounts */ define undefined behavior
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22:52:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169856&oldid=169854 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+497) this page is probably a hub for everything AI-related in esolanging
22:56:56 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169857&oldid=169766 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+212)
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23:05:26 <esolangs> [[User:Deltayelta/Dredge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169858 * Deltayelta * (+476) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Dredge |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Deltayelta]] |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |memsys=registers |dimensions=one-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Unknown computational class|Unknown]] |influence=[[wikipedia:LOOP (programmi
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01:13:30 <esolangs> [[X-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169859 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+830) Creation
01:15:27 <esolangs> [[X-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169860&oldid=169859 * Aadenboy * (-12)
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01:34:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:X-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169861 * Corbin * (+124) Created page with "This sounds like a circuit complexity class. ~~~~"
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04:48:16 <esolangs> [[Combine and continue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169862&oldid=167835 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+74) /* Commands */
04:50:07 <esolangs> [[Combine and continue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169863&oldid=169862 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+6) /* Turing completeness proof */ correct, and add ^
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07:52:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:TBPO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169864&oldid=169794 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+98) /* Hey */
07:55:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169865&oldid=165544 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+176) /* Rate of me */
07:56:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:TenBillionPlusOne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169866&oldid=169865 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-12) /* Rate of me */
07:56:34 <esolangs> [[User:TenBillionPlusOne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169867&oldid=169786 * TenBillionPlusOne * (-4) /* Users */
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08:07:28 <esolangs> [[Parenthesys]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169868&oldid=158918 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+0) /* Instructions */
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08:46:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:X-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169869&oldid=169861 * JIT * (+306) /* Interesting idea */ new section
08:50:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:X-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169870&oldid=169869 * JIT * (+305)
09:04:15 <esolangs> [[CCCC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169871 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1381) Created page with "'''CCCC''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]], inspired by [[FFFF]] and [[FRACTRAN]](Its name is simply John Conways last name, repeated alike FFFF's name). CCCC's computational class is currently unknown, however the creator believes it is turing compl
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11:08:02 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169872&oldid=169857 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+372)
11:34:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169873&oldid=169848 * None1 * (+11) /* L */
11:35:57 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169874&oldid=169502 * None1 * (+66) /* My Esolangs */
11:37:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Load]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169875&oldid=169778 * None1 * (+358)
11:38:32 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169876&oldid=169774 * None1 * (+38) /* Survey */
11:42:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Load]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169877&oldid=169875 * None1 * (+349) Some thoughts
11:43:40 <esolangs> [[LinearModulo2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169878&oldid=158216 * None1 * (+114)
11:44:12 <esolangs> [[Load]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169879&oldid=169777 * None1 * (+82) /* Computational class */
11:44:39 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169880&oldid=169874 * None1 * (+12) /* My Esolangs */
11:44:52 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169881&oldid=169880 * None1 * (-3) /* My Esolangs */
11:50:59 <esolangs> [[CatFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169882 * Timm * (+342) Created page with "each cell is cat |cat|cat2|cat3| +([name of cat]) >***>+ -([name of cat]) >***>- > > < < {([name of cat])[code]} >***>[***] set([name of cat]) >***> .([cat name]) >***>. ,([cat name]) >***>, +(hungry) + -(hungry) - {(hungry)[code]} [***] .(hungry) . ,(hun
11:51:27 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169883&oldid=169622 * Timm * (+13)
11:52:16 <esolangs> [[Waves]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169884&oldid=169590 * Timm * (+3)
11:57:40 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169885&oldid=147323 * Timm * (+39)
13:18:43 <esolangs> [[X-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169886&oldid=169860 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+108) /* Relationship to computation */ Added a fact
13:19:11 <esolangs> [[X-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169887&oldid=169886 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+22) *Logic must be functionally complete
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13:23:13 <esolangs> [[X-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169888&oldid=169887 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (-1) Fixed SMETANA Typo*
13:37:29 <esolangs> [[User:FluixMakesEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169889&oldid=169144 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+399) A much needed update to my profile
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14:37:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:X-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169890&oldid=169870 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+239) Replying to someone
14:47:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:X-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169891&oldid=169890 * Aadenboy * (+414)
14:59:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:X-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169892&oldid=169891 * Corbin * (+479)
15:02:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:X-complete]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169893&oldid=169892 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+232)
15:23:27 <esolangs> [[1764774817]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169894 * * (+510) Created page with "'''1764774817''' is an esolang made by [[User:]]. == Commands == <pre> A - Flips bits next to it B - Jumps to closest C C - Nop used as target for B and E. D - Bit E - If n bits are flipped true then jump to closest C else flip n bits F - Bitwise left shift G - Bitwise righ
15:23:53 <esolangs> [[User:/esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169895&oldid=169824 * * (+16)
15:25:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169896&oldid=169873 * * (+17) /* Non-alphabetic */
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15:44:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:X-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169897&oldid=169893 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+538)
15:53:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169898&oldid=169626 * Hammy * (+91) /* Featured Esolang! */
15:53:48 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169899&oldid=169898 * Hammy * (+33) /* main.irc */
15:59:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lemoneater69 * New user account
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16:04:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169900&oldid=169520 * Lemoneater69 * (+192) /* Introductions */
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16:09:26 <esolangs> [[Iterate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169901&oldid=169855 * Aadenboy * (+64) /* Interpreter */
16:23:34 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169902&oldid=169813 * Aadenboy * (-14) /* programming languages */ my opinion on c has improved
17:05:59 <esolangs> [[H (Hammy)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169903 * Hammy * (+1322) Created page with "H is a programming language by [[User:Hammy]] which is like Python, C and some random junk thought up by the creator of the esolang mixed together. The file extension is <code>.h</code>, but strangely you have to use <code>.hlb</code> for libraries. ==Commands== ===Base
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17:50:40 <esolangs> [[2026]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169904 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+388) Created page with "{{stub}} 2026 is an esolang based off of [[2014]] but for the year 2026, and it lasts all year. 2026 is identical to Python but it only runs in 2026 ==Implementation== <pre> import datetime current_year = datetime.datetime.now().year if current_year != 2026:
18:06:55 <int-e> . o O ( most predictable AoC twist so far )
18:09:10 <esolangs> [[Toki pona pi toki sitelen nanpa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169905 * Hammy * (+823) Created page with "{{lowercase}} toki pona pi toki sitelen nanpa (literally "toki pona programming language") is an esolang by [[User:Hammy]] based on toki pona. ==Commands== it's basically python but translated into toki pona. output is translated to toki pona if it
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18:13:59 <b_jonas> ``` learn "The password of the month is Ím, halljátok hát sok hajdani hős," # the start of a famous poem
18:14:07 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Ím, halljátok hát sok hajdani hős,
18:52:07 <esolangs> [[2026]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169906&oldid=169904 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+490) Examples
18:52:22 <esolangs> [[2026]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169907&oldid=169906 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (-9)
18:58:56 <zzo38> I played another puzzle game on DOS which is called "numjump"; if you are standing on the ground then you can go one step left or right, or you can go up any number of steps less than or equal to your current power followed by a number of steps left and/or right less or equal to the number of steps up that you moved; otherwise you can only go down.
19:06:33 <zzo38> (I also made up my own with a few new pieces, such as a ladder and a movable block)
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20:32:50 <ais523> when I was young I designed a turn-based platform game where the four possible moves were: move left / move right / jump left (two spaces up, two spaces left) / jump right (two spaces up, two spaces right) – you would move downwards to the ground after any of those moves
20:33:13 <ais523> and if a ceiling or wall blocked a jump the moves into the ceiling/wall would be disregarded but the rest of the jump would still happen
20:33:54 <ais523> this seems similar to numjump with power 2, except that you couldn't voluntarily move only one space sideways with a jump, you had to find something to bump into
21:14:45 <korvo> Is this langjam, or aoc?
21:39:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169908&oldid=169896 * Buckets * (+10)
21:40:03 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169909&oldid=169849 * Buckets * (+9)
21:40:15 <esolangs> [[Ete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169910 * Buckets * (+1532) Created page with "Ete Is An esoteric programming Language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | n[] || Within the Square brackets, Is Code and will Be replace After The #n in The direction, With The identification value Of n. |- | #n ||
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21:44:27 <ais523> korvo: in my case neitehr
23:11:47 <fizzie> Shortest (but not *particularly* short) Burlesque solutions of the year today.
23:12:58 <fizzie> `blsq "987654321111111 811111111111119 234234234234278 818181911112111" wd{JJ~]>]Fi.-g_j>]_+ri}ms
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01:17:20 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169911&oldid=169810 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-29)
01:18:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Sawyer.go0923]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169912&oldid=168636 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+116)
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02:00:56 <zzo38> My implementation of numjump is http://0x0.st/Kynh.class (the $Block and $Ladder classes are my own additions; the rest is (as far as I know) the same as the original game). (You might also be able to find the DOS version if you want to look for it; the DOS version does actually have one kind of piece (that only occurs in one level) that I did not implement.)
02:03:47 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169913&oldid=168559 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-1101)
02:05:07 <zzo38> I think another difference between numjump and ais523's game is that numjump does not allow you to move sideways more than you go up even if the ceiling is in the way, although I am unsure from ais523's description.
02:07:45 <ais523> zzo38: oh yes, that is another difference
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03:45:49 <korvo> avih: Okay, I've finished my first iteration on an expression language for Vixen. I'm still not super-thrilled about the idea, but it all seems to work and it will simplify future projects. I wanted to share an implementation detail tangent to our earlier discussion on literate programming.
03:46:39 <korvo> My compiler is written in Raku (Perl6) https://bpa.st/GXVA and it turns strings like `[:source|obj := (self at: "NixStore") intern: source. ^self at: (obj name) put: obj]` into execline scripts: https://bpa.st/WBJQ
03:46:40 <esolangs> [[Candycanes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169914 * Tommyaweosme * (+2004) Created page with "Candycanes is an esolang made out of candy canes. == Textual representation == It would be incredibly tedious to program in this language properly with all the right candy canes put in the perfect places. Therefore, a textual representation is also valid. Plea
03:47:49 <korvo> I had the compiler append a commented copy of the original program to the output. The pipeline to get it back is pretty easy; in Unix it's something like $(grep "^# " | cut -c3-), or at least that seems to work here.
04:01:27 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169915&oldid=169686 * Tommyaweosme * (+1014)
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04:27:50 <jgardner> weird question. really weird..
04:28:14 <jgardner> what's a linear time non-destructive search algorithm just involving two or more stacks?
04:29:49 <sorear> if you have two stacks you can pretend you have a tape. how would you _not_ search a tape in linear time?
04:30:50 <jgardner> everything I come up with is 2n.
04:32:18 <sorear> 2n is linear time under the standard definitions, constant factor multiples are ignored
04:32:49 <jgardner> let me rephrase: any solutions that are not 2n.
04:32:53 <sorear> and it's 2*n*(time needed for a stack operation), the last of which is sufficiently ill-defined that you can't do anything useful with the constant factor
04:33:22 <jgardner> ..okay, assuming I have a multi-stack PDA.
04:34:04 <jgardner> I know with two stacks.. you've got just a tape. has there been anything like.. 3.. 4.. 5...
04:34:18 <jgardner> been racking my brain, nothing comes to mind.
04:35:00 <sorear> redefine the end condition, you can do a single pass if you're willing to accept the list being reversed/moved in subsequent steps
04:35:24 <jgardner> yeah, assume you wanna model an unordered collection.
04:36:03 <sorear> it being unordered doesn't actually help because your records are not on the stack they started on
04:36:47 <jgardner> if I was iterating over (and processing) an unordered collection, I could actually do it in N steps with 3 stacks.
04:36:48 <korvo> jgardner: Classical computers can't do better than linear time. Intuitively, the search must look at every element of the structure being searched. (Remarkably, this isn't the case for quantum computers, or we wouldn't teach it at all; look up Grover's algorithm.)
04:37:13 <jgardner> right, but we're talking 2n. it's that "reset" that confounds me.
04:37:20 <jgardner> would like to eliminate that `2`.
04:37:47 <jgardner> with 3 stacks, I could (and have) built a front/back buffer situation.
04:38:10 <korvo> You can do a list zipper on two stacks. I have an example on-wiki: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Stack#Computational_class
04:38:26 <korvo> Sorry, I have a difficult time even seeing that 2; it's just O(n).
04:38:50 <jgardner> one moment, I will construct an example.
04:39:41 <sorear> nothing good has come of the QRAM
04:42:14 <b_jonas> other question. I make two implementations for something, an optimized implementation that I want to use, and a reference implementation that's too slow to use all the time but I'm more confident that it gives the right results so I use it to run some tests to compare the optimized implementation to. what do I call the reference implementation? I don't want to use "reference" in the name, because that
04:42:20 <b_jonas> already has a different meaning in Rust (and other languages), so it'd be confusing.
04:42:29 <korvo> b_jonas: "model" is the other common name, and it's also bad.
04:43:20 <b_jonas> I was thinking of "pessimized"
04:43:28 <korvo> "reference implementation" makes sense to me and I see that sort of phrase in some popular communities. For example, CPython is the reference implementation of Python.
04:45:22 <korvo> Sure. FWIW an algorithm is *pessimal* if, up to big-omega, it's not possible to do worse without explicitly wasting time. For example, the pessimal sort can be done by an algorithm called *slowsort*, which IIRC is Ω(n**3).
04:46:00 <korvo> It has a WP page! And its complexity is actually much worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowsort
04:48:36 <jgardner> https://playground.nova-lang.net/?code-url=https://gist.nouveau.community/june/b282fac2bf9347a2a53953b456035aaf/raw/HEAD/iteration.nv
04:49:06 <sorear> simple? specification? optimized for code size?
04:49:48 <jgardner> two approaches: regular (2n) iteration, and the front/back (n) iteration.
04:50:03 <jgardner> works for iteration, but not for search.
04:50:37 <korvo> How would a third stack make this faster? There's always going to be the situation where the needle's at the bottom of the haystack, right?
04:51:38 <jgardner> for iteration? I mean, they are two different complexities.. look I know we're talking about a constant factor but double is still double steps.
04:51:58 <jgardner> for search? I have no idea. assume you have a constant but unrestricted number of stacks.
04:53:50 <korvo> It's the same complexity class. I agree with you that there's a very real performance impact, and I might suggest e.g. keeping the tape zippered instead of rezipping it to the second stack, to amortize accesses, but complexity theory thankfully is solid enough to paper over that if we're looking for quick yes/no answers.
04:54:47 <jgardner> how would I keep the tape zippered, I don't understand what you mean by that.
04:55:23 <jgardner> also that example.. isn't search, it's just iteration.
04:56:08 <jgardner> y'know, on second thought, my bad, thanks.
04:59:09 <korvo> Search is just iteration and being able to cancel the iterator. I don't mean to make it sound facile, but that's basically how SQL engines work, and it's plenty fast for them. The main issue here is really that it's not feasible to pick/roll the return stack on a typical small machine, and that's not something that a third stack will help with either.
04:59:51 <jgardner> assume you're doing multiple, repeated searches for different items. that's where the complexity grows.
05:00:26 <korvo> "Facile?" I've apparently entered the time of night when my word choice sucks.
05:02:35 <korvo> Oh, you can amortize those! The idea is to make a little bubble structure which sits in the middle of the zipper, usually on the side with the pick/roll-able stack so that the whole struct can be quickly accessed. This struct can carry everything you need to locally execute the search, including storing multiple search results. For any particular predicate and fixed number of results, zipping across the bubble takes constant time.
05:04:10 <jgardner> can you explain to me the concept of a zipper in this context?
05:05:34 <korvo> A zipper is a data structure, but we punched a hole in it. We can move the hole around. In this case, we're taking a single list and snapping it into two pieces; the zipper is those two pieces with a hole in the middle.
05:06:44 <korvo> The second piece goes on the second stack, reversed. This is the part that you've already figured out. But, additionally, we can put *anything* into that hole as long as we manage it ourselves, and so we can have a zipper that has an extra bubble of local data on the first stack, at the edge of the hole.
05:08:58 <korvo> Like, say we start with a list unpacked on the first stack, like [1,2,3,4,5]. I'm saying that we can have zippers into it like [1,2,3] on the first stack and [5,4] on the second stack, and further we can have [1,2,3,<bubble>] and [5,4].
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06:48:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169916&oldid=43722 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+124)
06:48:40 <esolangs> [[()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169917&oldid=146992 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+8) add {{stub}} since it doesnt describe what the language actually does, or how it works.
07:12:36 <esolangs> [[Balanced Parentheses]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169918 * Corbin * (+806) Stub an important natural Dyck language.
07:15:19 <esolangs> [[()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169919&oldid=169917 * Corbin * (+193) Give more details.
07:15:24 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169920&oldid=163341 * Junkshipp * (+36)
07:19:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169921&oldid=169916 * Corbin * (+224)
07:21:45 <esolangs> [[Parentheses only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169922&oldid=80144 * Corbin * (+27) /* Syntax */ Bluelink and conventions.
07:23:53 <esolangs> [[PDA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169923&oldid=90764 * Corbin * (+69) /* Balanced? */ Bluelink.
07:24:32 <esolangs> [[Ligature Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169924&oldid=40139 * Corbin * (+4) /* Balanced parentheses */ Bluelink.
07:25:29 <esolangs> [[UClang*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169925&oldid=153967 * Corbin * (+4) /* Computational class */ Bluelink.
07:27:03 <esolangs> [[GML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169926&oldid=157393 * Corbin * (-30) /* Concatenative calculus as a special case */ Bluelink.
07:29:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:GML]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169927 * Corbin * (+334) Created page with "I'm not exactly sure how to phrase it, but historically GML is unlikely to be the genesis of concatenative calculi, if for no other reason than that it's over half a century after the founding of category theory. [[Hagino CPL]] predates GML, for example. ~~~~"
07:31:42 <esolangs> [[Extended pushdown automata]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169928&oldid=127200 * Corbin * (-3) Bluelink.
07:33:14 <esolangs> [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169929&oldid=169178 * Corbin * (-1) /* GPM and TRAC language */ Bluelink.
07:35:46 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169930&oldid=168407 * Corbin * (+42) Bluelink. Also fix headings.
07:37:43 <korvo> Finished. Trying to move responsibility for stubs from individual experimental languages to existing well-trodden computer science.
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10:07:50 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169931&oldid=169872 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+2697)
10:13:53 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925/Testing Facility]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169932&oldid=168925 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+317)
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11:27:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169933&oldid=169921 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+194)
12:14:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Roco]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169934&oldid=10105 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+116) /* About the brainfuck interpreter */
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13:47:47 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169935&oldid=165763 * Nguyendinhtung2014 * (+54) added Basic Stack
13:49:53 <fizzie> Today's part 2 takes 1m24.706s to complete. Burlesque's poorly suited for anything that involves "2D arrays" of any kind.
13:55:35 <esolangs> [[Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169936&oldid=163069 * Nguyendinhtung2014 * (+50) i changed the rules based on the discussion. if it's wrong, please tell!
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14:04:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169937&oldid=168528 * Nguyendinhtung2014 * (+127)
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14:39:57 <esolangs> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169938&oldid=169936 * PkmnQ * (+67) Slightly rearrange things
14:47:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169939&oldid=169927 * B jonas * (+1111)
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15:07:15 <fizzie> I keep forgetting what's the best way to generate neighborhoods around a point represented as {y x}.
15:07:17 <fizzie> `blsq {4 7} {?+}j+]2rz?dJcpjm[
15:07:19 <HackEso> {{3 6} {3 7} {3 8} {4 6} {4 7} {4 8} {5 6} {5 7} {5 8}}
15:07:20 <fizzie> `blsq {4 7} bc2rz?dJcp{?+}Z]
15:07:21 <HackEso> {{3 6} {3 7} {3 8} {4 6} {4 7} {4 8} {5 6} {5 7} {5 8}}
15:07:41 <fizzie> This year's attempts, but I think I used to have something shorter in the past.
15:11:26 <fizzie> `blsq {4 7} {J-.j+.r@}m[^pcp
15:11:27 <HackEso> {{3 6} {3 7} {3 8} {4 6} {4 7} {4 8} {5 6} {5 7} {5 8}}
15:11:51 <fizzie> There's a shorthand syntax for m[p^ but not m[^p. :/
15:13:16 <fizzie> `blsq {4 7} {2rz?d?+}m[^pcp
15:13:18 <HackEso> {{3 6} {3 7} {3 8} {4 6} {4 7} {4 8} {5 6} {5 7} {5 8}}
15:13:27 <fizzie> Saves one character, I guess.
15:22:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Anothaccount * New user account
15:27:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169940&oldid=169900 * Anothaccount * (+173)
15:28:59 <esolangs> [[User:Anothaccount]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169941 * Anothaccount * (+87) Created page with "hello i am another account my yt account: @handlegoeshere-y6c my scratch account: pik-"
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15:47:17 <fizzie> Oh, right, of course, swapping has a one-character special, so even if MP puts them in the wrong order it ends up being a net saving to use it.
15:47:19 <fizzie> `blsq {4 7} {2rz?d?+}MPjcp
15:47:20 <HackEso> {{6 3} {6 4} {6 5} {7 3} {7 4} {7 5} {8 3} {8 4} {8 5}}
15:49:32 <fizzie> Huh, it's a documentation bug.
15:50:05 <fizzie> https://mroman.ch/burlesque/lref.html says MapPush (MP) is "defined as m[p^" but it appears to be m[^p instead.
15:51:03 <fizzie> `blsq {4 7} {2rz?d?+}MPcp
15:51:05 <HackEso> {{3 6} {3 7} {3 8} {4 6} {4 7} {4 8} {5 6} {5 7} {5 8}}
15:51:14 <fizzie> Well, it's even shorter, but I don't know if it's intended or not.
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16:14:02 <esolangs> [[User:Anothaccount]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169942&oldid=169941 * Anothaccount * (+5)
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17:17:13 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169943&oldid=169931 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+33)
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18:12:16 <esolangs> [[Betray]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169944 * Anothaccount * (+2306) Created page with "Betray is an [[Esoteric programming language|esolang]] created by [[User:Anothaccount]]. It's designed to scramble the code right before it is executed, which makes it really difficult for programming. Betray also has commands that modify the code in different ways.
18:20:57 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169945&oldid=169155 * Anothaccount * (+21)
18:23:52 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/randomuserpage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169946 * Aadenboy * (+526) Created page with "{{#switch:{{#expr:{{#time:U}}*3 mod 16}} |0=User:Aadenboy/Sandbox |1=User:Aadenboy/Zerons |2=User:Aadenboy/O(n) CGoL |3=User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares |4=User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares/d^3 |5=User:Aadenboy/Live stats |6=User:Aadenboy/wikip
18:25:48 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/randomesolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169947 * Aadenboy * (+194) Created page with "{{#switch:{{#expr:{{#time:U}}*3 mod 11}} |0=Braingrate |1=Trampolines |2=MEMORYLEEK |3=Esolangs.org |4=Stub |5=Kawa |6=Iterate |7=FOSMOL |8=Flowchart |9=Smolder |10=thisthat |11=a=ab=bc=cd=d! }}"
18:28:31 <esolangs> [[User:XKCD Random Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169948&oldid=169935 * * (+41) /* 100BF */
18:30:52 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/issue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169949 * Aadenboy * (+897) Created page with "<div style="background-color: #fef6e7; border: 1px solid #a66200; padding: 12px 24px; display: inline-block;"> {{#switch:{{#expr:{{#time:U}}*5 mod 3}} |0='''Remember that [[{{User:Aadenboy/randomesolang}}|this]] is only a preview.''' Your changes have not ye
18:31:23 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169950&oldid=169902 * Aadenboy * (+11) add flair
18:35:14 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/issue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169951&oldid=169949 * Aadenboy * (+128)
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18:47:05 <esolangs> [[CONTAIN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169952 * QuantumV * (+1705) Created page with "CONTAIN is an esolang about boxes that contain numbers. == Instructions == <pre> Programs end when all containers get deleted. Boxes: [number] - Create container at this character position with default number set. [] - Init container to 0 "text" - Create sequential
18:52:01 <esolangs> [[PDA-er Pushdown Automaton Proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169953&oldid=92332 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+3) "For every transition <math>M</math> has of the form " was weird and confusingly said IMO so I changed it slightly to "For every transition within <math>M</math> of the form".
18:53:13 <esolangs> [[Factorial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169954&oldid=153486 * QuantumV * (+49) add contain
18:55:12 <esolangs> [[Tercet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169955&oldid=163841 * * (+28) Added Turing tarpits using HotCat /jk
18:55:32 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169956&oldid=166097 * QuantumV * (+31) add contain
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18:58:12 <esolangs> [[CONTAIN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169957&oldid=169952 * QuantumV * (+96)
19:05:16 <esolangs> [[QX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169958 * * (+633) Created page with "'''QX''' is a [[Turing tarpit]] made by [[User:]]. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! What it does |- | Q [a] || Increments the current value at pointer by a. Can decrement if a is negative |- | X [a] [b] || If a <= previous item at pointer then go to previous item
19:05:45 <esolangs> [[User:/esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169959&oldid=169895 * * (+8)
19:07:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Q!?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169960 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+171) Created page with "This "proof" of turing completeness is not any proof. --~~~~"
19:08:11 <esolangs> [[Q!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169961&oldid=169720 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-216) /* Turing completeness */
19:10:55 <esolangs> [[IExpress repeater]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169962&oldid=168782 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+17)
19:12:41 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169963&oldid=169958 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-133) /* Turing-completeness proof */ As on Q!?(or Q?!) , the proof is just good good enough as a proof
19:12:49 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169964&oldid=169963 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-57) /* Examples */
19:13:30 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169965&oldid=169964 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1) replace turing tarpit with minimal since we dont know
19:19:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Syssolu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169966 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+155) Created page with "This page should propably be deleted. --~~~~"
19:19:59 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169967&oldid=169965 * * (+5) /* Infinite loop */
19:23:47 <esolangs> [[X-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169968&oldid=169888 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+207)
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19:30:58 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169969&oldid=169967 * * (+2866)
19:32:12 <esolangs> [[QX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169970&oldid=169969 * * (-1)
19:32:42 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169971&oldid=169970 * * (+7) /* Interpreter */
19:33:12 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169972&oldid=169971 * * (+25)
19:33:43 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169973&oldid=169972 * * (+27)
19:35:55 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169974&oldid=169973 * * (+151) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/169963|169963]] by [[Special:Contributions/Yayimhere2(school)|Yayimhere2(school)]] ([[User talk:Yayimhere2(school)|talk]]) That's the basic rules of Turing completeness
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19:40:28 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169975&oldid=169876 * * (+36) /* Survey */ Adding my Turing-complete minimal language that finally has an interpreter :)
19:40:53 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169976&oldid=169853 * * (+30) /* Esolang interpreters generated by AI */
19:41:05 -!- TypesWithAHammer has changed nick to gAy_Dragon.
19:46:33 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169977&oldid=169974 * Corbin * (+29) Tag slop.
19:48:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169978&oldid=169722 * * (+566) /* On QX */ new section
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19:53:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169979&oldid=169978 * Corbin * (+770) /* On QX */ Strange LLMs lying in chatbots distributing Python is no basis for a system of knowledge.
19:54:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169980&oldid=169979 * * (+599) /* On QX */
19:55:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169981&oldid=169980 * * (+0) /* On QX */
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19:57:34 <esolangs> [[Category:Generated by AI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169982&oldid=151417 * * (-41)
20:02:21 <esolangs> [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169983&oldid=154601 * Hammy * (+223) /* Hello World */
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20:25:21 <HackEso> 1/1:500) <fizzie> Isn't "strip nomic" just another word for all dating, though? \ 633) <zzo38> Astrological ages don't work. Instead, say what you mean.
21:04:19 <esolangs> [[Brainpoop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169984 * Hammy * (+755) Created page with "Brainpoop is by [[User:Hammy]] and is [[bf]] but worse. It was made in about 10 minutes, and was created so "people don't have to do the pain of making a brainfuck interpreter". ==Commands== Same as [[bf]], but loops are removed. New commands: <code>|</code> skips to t
21:16:15 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169985&oldid=169977 * Aadenboy * (+1318) add Lua implementation w/o ai
21:17:17 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169986&oldid=169950 * Aadenboy * (+9) /* interpreters */ add [[QX]]
21:18:11 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/issue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169987&oldid=169951 * Aadenboy * (+2)
21:20:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169988&oldid=169981 * Aadenboy * (+377) update
21:23:35 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169989&oldid=169985 * Aadenboy * (-11) /* Infinite loop */ golf the example, also infinite travel leftwards
21:42:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169990&oldid=169908 * Buckets * (+12)
21:42:44 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169991&oldid=169909 * Buckets * (+11)
21:43:02 <esolangs> [[Aucke]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169992 * Buckets * (+1470) Created page with "{{Stub}} Aucke Is an Esoteric programming language Created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | + || +1 To the X coordinate Variable And it Loops. |- | - || +1 to the Y coordinate Variable And it Loops. |- | f || Set the Co
22:21:49 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/issue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169993&oldid=169987 * * (-5)
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22:26:48 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169994&oldid=169989 * Aadenboy * (+140) /* Examples */ A+B problem
22:28:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169995&oldid=122315 * 5anz * (+227) /* does an OISC have to be Turing complete? */
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22:38:18 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169996&oldid=169994 * Aadenboy * (+256) /* Lua interpreter */ more stuff. input and infinity weren't specified in the docs so this might be nonstandard
22:38:53 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/issue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169997&oldid=169993 * Aadenboy * (+0)
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23:28:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ClearlyClaire * New user account
00:33:02 <esolangs> [[EsoBall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169998 * A() * (+419) Created page with "[[EsoBall]] is an esolang made by [[User:A()]]. Inspired by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football. ==How it works== There are two teams, Team Program and Team Blockers. In order to output a 1, Team Program must throw it to the goal. To output a zero, Team Blockers
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02:06:26 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169999&oldid=169913 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+40) fixed and added somethings.
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03:19:54 <esolangs> [[User:FluixMakesEsolangs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170000&oldid=169889 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+14) /* 2025 */
03:43:04 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170001&oldid=169915 * Tommyaweosme * (+897)
03:48:09 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sing.with.me]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170002&oldid=168480 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-347)
03:49:28 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sing.with.me]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170003&oldid=170002 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+21)
04:08:48 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170004&oldid=170001 * Tommyaweosme * (+726) bringing together past parts of old userpages from long ago in order to create the one correct userpage in perfect harmony and sync with all other variations past.
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04:34:04 <esolangs> [[Redirekt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170005 * Tommyaweosme * (+548) Created page with "Redirekt is an esoteric data structure made by [[user:tommyaweosme]]. It works like this: you can place data on any part of an infinitely long line. Gravity will push it down. Any two data that intersects will permenantly merge (by addition, concatenation, or any
04:36:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mun Hammer * New user account
04:38:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170006&oldid=169940 * Mun Hammer * (+233) /* Introductions */
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06:09:12 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170007&oldid=170004 * Ais523 * (-48)
06:10:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 11 revisions on page [[User:Tommyaweosme]]: content hidden: redact personal/private information: according to [[Esolang:Policy]] you should not submit private information to the wiki
06:30:39 <esolangs> [[Vixen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170008&oldid=169182 * Corbin * (+1921) Add Vixen expression language.
07:30:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170009&oldid=169995 * None1 * (+0) /* does an OISC have to be Turing complete? */
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07:40:56 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170010&oldid=168583 * None1 * (+224) /* Note */
07:41:48 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170011&oldid=170010 * None1 * (+1) /* Note */
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08:52:53 <esolangs> [[Satans Disciples GangLang $]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170012&oldid=165514 * JIT * (+23)
09:24:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mker-bin * New user account
09:47:03 <esolangs> [[Goto machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170013&oldid=158978 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+17) /* Memory and syntax */
09:48:01 <esolangs> [[Goto machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170014&oldid=170013 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+0) /* Execution */
09:51:23 <esolangs> [[Goto machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170015&oldid=170014 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+14) /* Looping counter */
09:52:05 <esolangs> [[Goto machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170016&oldid=170015 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+2) /* NOP */
09:53:41 <esolangs> [[Goto machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170017&oldid=170016 * TenBillionPlusOne * (+14) /* NOP */
10:06:39 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170018&oldid=169996 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-151) The proof is still no proof. There's multiple cases where things are very close to, but not 100% TC, even though they look like they'd be. If you want to prove it, then make a formal proof, by compilation or similar. Im deleting the section again, it is no proof. For examp
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10:22:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Buckets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170019&oldid=168822 * JIT * (+933) /* What did you mean by this? */ new section
10:24:00 <esolangs> [[4gn/]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170020&oldid=169784 * JIT * (+50)
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10:59:32 <esolangs> [[Hangover]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170021 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1167) Created page with "'''Hangover''', named by the constant spinning of its counter, is a 2d esoteric programming language created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. It uses only two commands. == Semantics == Hangover has nowhere to store memory. As such, it must be stored in the program. It
11:05:11 <esolangs> [[XOR Machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170022 * None1 * (+31) Redirected page to [[XO Mchne]]
11:06:42 <esolangs> [[Hangover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170023&oldid=170021 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+20) /* Semantics */
11:07:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170024&oldid=170009 * None1 * (+308) /* Does an OISC have to be Turing complete? */
11:08:07 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170025&oldid=169734 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+15) /* esolangs */
11:40:02 <esolangs> [[Brain-accumulator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170026&oldid=160267 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+8143) Supplemented an interpreter implementation in the programming language Common Lisp.
11:57:07 <esolangs> [[Brain-accumulator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170027&oldid=170026 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+142) Rectified the cat program (Cat), which would translate to the brainfuck code ,[,.], and supplemented a truth-machine implementation.
11:58:03 <esolangs> [[Brain-accumulator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170028&oldid=170027 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+0) Rectified the hyperlink to the cat program article.
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13:17:25 <esolangs> [[Brain-accumulator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170029&oldid=170028 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-1) Rectified an instance of cacography.
13:32:33 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170030&oldid=170018 * Aadenboy * (+707) simple translation to unbounded brainfuck, turing-complete
13:58:07 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170031&oldid=170030 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+53) /* Computational class */ add "Note that this assumes infinity is a valid constant."
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14:02:18 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170032&oldid=166390 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+32) /* changes */
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14:03:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:QX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170033 * Aadenboy * (+583) Created page with "adding a note here since I don't have the time to do this at the momenta proof w/o infinity should be possible by simulating the wrapping behavior for <code>+</code> and <code>-</code>, then replacing <code></code> and <code>-</code> with <code>257</code> and <code>0</c
14:07:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * * uploaded "[[File:QX logo.png]]"
14:08:07 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170035&oldid=170031 * * (+45)
14:09:06 <esolangs> [[Hangover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170036&oldid=170023 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+121) /* Semantics */
14:10:08 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170037&oldid=170035 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+3) /* Computational class */ its translation *from* not *to*
14:10:19 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170038&oldid=170037 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1) /* Computational class */
14:15:00 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170039&oldid=170038 * * (-2901) /* Python interpreter */ Removed AI generated interpreter
14:17:43 <esolangs> [[Assembler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170040 * Timm * (+1083) Created page with "== '''''MEMORY''''' == Regs; A, B, C, D, E, ACC, PC 0000 0001 0010 0011 0100 0101 NOCODE Ram; TR, ER, PROGRAM VALUE OR PV (STORES PV'S A, B, C, D, E, ACC AND SO ON) 0110 0111 NOCODE INT; 1000 INT == '''''COMMANDS''''' == MOV [REG] [INT/REG] load [2] into [1] MOV [R
14:18:15 <esolangs> [[Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170041&oldid=170040 * Timm * (+14)
14:18:48 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170042&oldid=169883 * Timm * (+15)
14:19:14 <esolangs> [[Eror]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170043&oldid=146993 * 5anz * (+0) /* Definitions & Redefinitions */
14:19:55 <esolangs> [[QX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170044&oldid=170039 * Aadenboy * (+60) /* Lua interpreter */ negative infinity
14:21:07 <esolangs> [[Eror]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170045&oldid=170043 * 5anz * (+1) /* Stack */
14:22:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170046&oldid=169805 * * (+663) /* QX is my best project so far */ new section
14:30:12 <esolangs> [[Eror]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170047&oldid=170045 * 5anz * (-3) /* Exclusionary cat program */
14:31:13 <esolangs> [[A Delusion of Control]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170048 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+819) Created page with "'''A Delusion of Control''' or ADoC, is an esoteric language, devised by [[User:Yayimhere]], as a strange stack based language. == Command set == Using the following notation: '''stack - stack after command , program after command''': * '''''':
14:34:20 <esolangs> [[Eror]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170049&oldid=170047 * 5anz * (-1) /* Number guessing game */
14:34:42 <esolangs> [[Eror]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170050&oldid=170049 * 5anz * (+1) /* Number guessing game */
14:44:16 <esolangs> [[User:QuantumV]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170051&oldid=161122 * QuantumV * (+16)
14:44:38 <esolangs> [[CONTAIN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170052&oldid=169957 * QuantumV * (+27)
14:49:38 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Stubs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170053&oldid=8394 * 5anz * (+179)
14:57:17 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Thematic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170054 * 5anz * (+310) Created page with "== All languages == Could you not argue every language is Thematic? brainfuck could be argued to be themed around having a small interpreter. [[Forte]] could be argued to be themed around redefining numbers. You could realistically use any language as an exa
15:01:06 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170055&oldid=169976 * * (-30) /* Esolang interpreters generated by AI */
15:11:57 <esolangs> [[A Delusion of Control]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170056&oldid=170048 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+55) /* Command set */
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15:39:42 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Thematic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170057&oldid=170054 * Aadenboy * (+517) /* All languages */ reply
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16:09:03 <esolangs> [[Gemini]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170058 * PrySigneToFry * (+35383) Created page with "{{WIP}} Not be confused with the AI with the same name of this programming language. Gemini is designed by PSTF. = Intro = == Code Blocks == In order to make the program look more layered and clear, we do not use any brackets to distinguish code blocks. All cod
16:09:21 <esolangs> [[Gemini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170059&oldid=170058 * PrySigneToFry * (+22093)
16:13:55 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sing.with.me]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170060&oldid=170003 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+36)
16:16:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170061&oldid=170033 * PkmnQ * (+219)
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16:19:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:QX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170062&oldid=170061 * PkmnQ * (+9) forgot the newline
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16:27:03 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170063&oldid=170044 * Aadenboy * (+836) /* Computational class */ some bug fixing + a non-infinity proof
16:38:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RikoMamaBala * New user account
16:38:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170064&oldid=170062 * PkmnQ * (+97)
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16:51:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170065&oldid=170006 * RikoMamaBala * (+256)
17:20:21 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170066&oldid=170055 * Ractangle * (+34)
17:21:28 <esolangs> [[Use of AI in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170067&oldid=170066 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-9) /* Esolang interpreters generated by AI */ its not actually official, there is none(COPY WITH @)
17:24:07 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/xml maybe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170068 * Aadenboy * (+6303) cool concept I came up with some time ago
17:24:45 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/xml maybe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170069&oldid=170068 * Aadenboy * (+111)
17:29:56 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170070&oldid=169986 * Aadenboy * (+30) /* just some drafts */ add [[User:Aadenboy/xml maybe]]
17:30:15 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/randomuserpage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170071&oldid=169946 * Aadenboy * (+28) add [[User:Aadenboy/xml maybe]]
17:33:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170072&oldid=165523 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+527) /* Discussion */
17:34:02 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170073&oldid=170025 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+39) /* things about me */
17:40:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170074&oldid=170064 * * (+750) /* You can translate Brainpocalypse to QX */ new section
17:42:54 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170075&oldid=170063 * * (+284) /* Computational class */
17:43:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170076&oldid=170074 * * (+47) /* You can translate Brainpocalypse to QX */
17:43:46 <esolangs> [[QX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170077&oldid=170075 * * (+2) /* Computational class */
17:47:36 <esolangs> [[QX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170078&oldid=170077 * * (+2) /* Computational class */
17:52:35 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170079&oldid=170078 * Aadenboy * (-4) /* Computational class */
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17:58:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170080&oldid=170076 * Aadenboy * (+444) /* You can translate Brainpocalypse to QX */ fix
17:59:00 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170081&oldid=170079 * Aadenboy * (+113) /* Computational class */ fix
17:59:23 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170082&oldid=170081 * Aadenboy * (-3) /* Computational class */
18:02:01 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Thematic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170083&oldid=170057 * Ais523 * (+955) it's mostly about visual appearance
18:03:21 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Thematic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170084&oldid=170083 * Ais523 * (+314) an addendum
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18:26:47 <ais523> still trying to wake up properly
18:27:04 <Yayimhere> hope you end up waking up properly
18:32:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esocreator * New user account
18:35:20 <korvo> Great to see that QX got positive attention. I suppose that it's an instance of Cunningham's Law that somebody will reply to an AI-generated interpreter with a hand-written interpreter that is easier to read.
18:35:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170085&oldid=170065 * Esocreator * (+262)
18:36:27 <Yayimhere> my most attention given esolang is probably ;;;
18:37:03 <esolangs> [[User:Esocreator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170086 * Esocreator * (+117) Created page with "Hello! My name is Esocreator. I got interested in esolangs around October 2025. Save this if i become famous one day."
18:38:48 <esolangs> [[OoOoOM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170087&oldid=169158 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+98) /* Commands */
18:40:25 <Yayimhere> I guess RECT4n=GLE got some attention
18:41:40 <ais523> this discussion has made me really curious about just how bad the AI-generated QX interpreter is
18:42:29 <Yayimhere> "discussion" is a little of a stretch
18:42:47 <ais523> well, was checking across IRC and the wiki talk page and the wiki edit history
18:43:01 <ais523> I can't tell how much of the ridiculousness here is the AI and how much is Python
18:44:39 <ais523> but it reminds me more of compiler output than anything
18:45:29 <ais523> actually, one thing I remember saying ages ago is that despite being slow to write and hard to maintain, assembly is actually fairly easy to learn and fairly easy to write in (although nothing helps to catch your mistakes and they can have hugely bad consequences)
18:45:45 <ais523> and this has made me realise that LLMs can effectively write assembly in any language
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18:48:04 <ais523> it also seems to have the classic LLM output traits of "technically correct but is missing important details", e.g. it places a time limit on program execution after which it dumps out the entire memory state, and this is not usually what people want to do with a Turing tarpit
18:48:20 <korvo> Yayimhere: Well, first, consider that you have to do something *interesting* first. Right now, because you're still learning, it's reasonable for you to feel like *everything* is interesting. That's okay! But you should consider that the wider community of folks who have education and experience might only be interested in very *specific* things that you aren't talking about.
18:48:32 <ais523> and it stores the memory array in a dictionary and has to sort it by index in order to output it in the right order
18:48:37 <korvo> (Second, along similar lines, consider that you might not *want* that much attention at your age!)
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18:49:04 <korvo> Oh, okay. Have a good night.
18:49:14 <ais523> korvo: fwiw I find that people who are still learning and find everything interesting and churn out a lot of concepts as a consequence do sometimes end up coming across ideas that are interesting to other people too
18:49:36 <ais523> even if they can't identify which ones they are
18:49:49 <korvo> I was going to say that, third, it says something about the *community* when they aren't interested in what you're doing. Sometimes that's because the community has biases and that's not your fault.
18:50:35 <korvo> Like, I've come to understand that the authors of languages like Odin, Zig, Oils, and D aren't interested in my POV. But their boos mean little to me because I've seen what they think good code looks like.
18:51:13 <ais523> korvo: now I'm curious about whether what you dislike about Zig is different or the same as what I dislike about Zig
18:51:26 <korvo> ais523: That's definitely true too. That's part of why I keep pushing Yayimhere to prioritize *learning* above creating new stuff just for fun.
18:51:42 <ais523> korvo: I don't mind it so much because creating new stuff for fun can be a form of learning
18:52:21 <korvo> ais523: My very very first reaction was that the explicit allocator is a massive step backwards, a design mistake comparable to some of the showstoppers in e.g. Go. Since then, I've come to respect their implementation of multi-stage programming, but otherwise it's just not compelling.
18:52:56 <korvo> I think it's fun that the toolchain can ingest C and C++. We considered doing a similar thing in Monte to ingest E, but there's no interesting algorithms written in E. (Which I now understand to be a red flag on its own!)
18:53:22 <ais523> hmm, my reaction to Zig's explicit allocators is that it could be a good idea but I'm not sure that the details are correct (and it may be that the type system isn't strong enough that the details *can* be correct!)
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18:54:02 <korvo> Ironically, I've added explicit allocation to Vixen, so that I don't just hardcode /tmp as the place where temporary objects are stored, and I can see the value in customizing allocation in general. I just think that it's a low-level detail and I'm not willing to give up GC just because somebody on Youtube said so.
18:54:26 <ais523> something that I've been thinking a lot about recently is that programmers in lower-level/system languages aren't taking enough advantage of their allocators, there are lots of things that people do manually from within the program that could more efficiently be done by asking the allocator for help
18:54:42 <ais523> (and this is true even in GCed languages)
18:55:14 <korvo> By "explicit" I mean that instead of writing something like [|^self clone], I write [|^self clone: self allocator*]. Fine, whatever, as long as it lets me write more portable objects.
18:55:25 <ais523> one of my favourite examples is middle-bit tagging: tagging objects by asking the allocator to allocate them at addresses that have certain numerical properties, so that you can then discover something about the object by looking at its address
18:56:25 <korvo> As Zig's evolved, I've come to understand that my approach to the colored-functions blogpost is completely alien to everybody else's. In particular, it seems that folks literally cannot perceive that async/await is necessarily a second-string solution rather than the ultimate syntax. I think it's a memetic blindness.
18:56:56 <ais523> my reaction to async/await is *also* different from everyone else's, but also different from yours I think
18:57:48 <korvo> Yeah, mine starts with "codensity monad" and only gets worse from there.
18:57:54 <ais523> I like to think of a blocked await as returning a value "this routine can't continue yet because…" and the function later being effectively resumable from that point, and it to be possible to do something with these values to determine when to unblock
18:58:13 <ais523> err, I mean routine, not function
18:58:47 <ais523> I like to try to be careful with terminology, especially when talking to you, but decades of living with languages that call everything "functions" or "methods" makes it hard to be precise unless I'm really concentrating
18:59:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170088&oldid=170072 * Aadenboy * (+735) reply
18:59:34 <korvo> No worries, I get it. Sometimes I wonder if I've been permanently rotated five-dimensionally or something.
18:59:52 <ais523> anyway, from this point of view, async is basically a caching system – you are caching what the routine has done so far so that you can replay it when the routine is resumed
19:01:35 <ais523> I think it's possible to design a language in order to make it entirely an optimisation rather than something that has semantic effects, but it would be somewhat alien and not how most languages work (in particular I/O would have to be idempotent)
19:02:28 <korvo> Yeah, this POV can work. Like, Windows still uses completion-based I/O.
19:04:32 <ais523> I think it's undisputed that promises/futures are a monad, and async/await is sugar for the monad – the interesting thing about my viewpoint is that it basically collapses into being the same monad as Either
19:04:40 <korvo> ais523: Oh, there's cap lore that might be more legible than any category-theoretic rambling. There's a pattern, membrane, for partitioning an object's references into multiple regions. The idea is that access across the membrane is only permeable in one direction, but we can still manipulate objects on the other side of the membrane by stretching it.
19:05:29 <ais523> I don't think the informal description of membranes there is hugely useful in helping me figure out how it works
19:06:21 <korvo> Ha! It's very disputed. Very frustrating. But if you're comfortable with that, then yeah, Either is like the first-order version of the more general effect where each codensity monad generates its own color of functions.
19:07:23 <korvo> https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/76e61e6634571da296ec1fccc6784c19 Very dense note that I made about this. Basically, async/await means *hosting* one codensity monad within another, and then we have a way to run the monad to extract values. But "running" is...waiting? That's oxymoronic; how do we actually delegate control flow?
19:08:08 <ais523> it's not specifically waiting but blocking
19:08:22 <ais523> but you have to block on everything simultaneously
19:09:03 <korvo> Sure. Ideally blocking means doing something CPU-bound, though. We only want to wait when there's genuinely no work left to schedule. So what we actually want to do is run a *continuation* which has more work to do.
19:09:13 <ais523> there are basically two models of async, one in which starting a computation starts it in the background and it may have finished by the time you attempt to wait for it to finish, and one in which starting a computation does nothing until you attempt to block on it, and only then does it start running
19:09:38 <ais523> I've been told that there are theoretical reasons to prefer the latter but I don't know what they are
19:10:21 <korvo> In Twisted Python, there's an idiom where any sort of cooperative iteration should be threaded through the main event loop. This gives backpressure to all iterators and also ensures that the IO loop rarely goes to sleep under load. The same sort of thing is implicit in E.
19:10:38 <ais523> <korvo> Sure. Ideally blocking means doing something CPU-bound, though. ← this reminds me of something I've seen a couple of times recently, "don't use async for CPU-bound problems, it doesn't help, use it for I/O-bound problems only"
19:11:50 <ais523> one thing I have worked on in the past is attempting to design the perfect low-level I/O API (i.e. not the API that the programmer uses directly, but the API that the compiler causes the compiled code to use)
19:11:57 <korvo> Oh, right, membranes. We can let an object's locals be either "safe" or "unsafe". Or "sync" or "async", I suppose; same reasoning. If we have two unsafe objects, we can compose them without actually doing anything; the composition takes place on the other side of the membrane. In terms of monads, this is when a language does something special to lift actions to monads, like Haskell STM.
19:12:22 <ais523> right, this is very monad-like
19:14:17 <korvo> There's a physical semantics. Composition of async objects is done with "promise pipelining"; when we send to a promise, we send a message on top of another send. This breaks monad transparency! When something is doable behind a membrane, it must be expressed wholly in terms of pipelined sends.
19:15:14 <ais523> anyway, I think that the right API for doing I/O is a combination of "start doing this I/O request", "is this I/O request done yet?" and "block until at least one I/O request is finished" (this last API is the only way to block and is only used when there is nothing else to do)
19:15:27 <ais523> but one thing I'm not sure about is how to mix I/O requests with continuous CPU use
19:16:04 <korvo> I suppose, for the logs, let p1 and p2 be E-style promises; they represent async actions. `p1<-firstThis()<-thenThat(p2)` doesn't have to materialize an intermediate object representing the far-away result `p1<-firstThis()`; it stays on the other side of the membrane/network.
19:16:06 <ais523> because ideally you would want implementations in which requests are not started until an attempt to block to be valid, but continuous CPU use would cause them to livelock
19:17:01 <ais523> korvo: OK, I see, this is equivalent to a monad but instead of the monad being a *type* it is some other property that might have a runtime effect
19:18:55 <ais523> this is analogous to the way that you can compose monad actions without knowing how to run them
19:19:16 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
19:19:29 <korvo> ais523: Yes! The monad is in the physical interaction between networked machines. This is also what I mean in that note when I say that the comonad is on the other side of the screen; really, it seems like the user and the computer are *adjoint* through the screen, and the comonad and monad are merely ways of describing their experiences.
19:20:18 <korvo> Also yes. In Haskell, the API for Arrow is an example of this, although there it's because the algebraic laws aren't strong enough; the optimizer is forced to pretend that it can't see inside certain functions.
19:20:26 <ais523> @djinn m a -> (a -> m b) -> m m b
19:20:27 <lambdabot> Error: kind error: (KVar 0,KVar 1)
19:20:33 <ais523> @djinn m a -> (a -> m b) -> m (m b)
19:21:06 <ais523> @djinn m a -> (a -> b) -> m b
19:21:21 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
19:21:41 <ais523> (sorry for all the lambabot usage, I feel like I'm confused about something and am trying to establish what it is)
19:21:42 <korvo> I like that API idea. In Vixen, starting I/O would be done with execline's `background` wrapped by V/send:. PIDs can be checked with Process/fromPID:. Blocking can be done with execline's `wait`.
19:22:27 <ais523> I think for performance reasons, the request to block should indicate which request unblocked, so that you don't have to check them all individually (although that isn't needed for correctness)
19:22:31 <korvo> I don't have E-style vats yet. In E, if two objects are in distinct vats then they might as well be network-gapped. Linux containers could work for that.
19:22:54 <ais523> @djinn Monad m => m a -> (a -> b) -> m b
19:23:40 <korvo> ais523: And possibly completions are faster still. I'm thinking about experimenting with s6's IPC services; they have the ability to park an FD and save it for later.
19:23:50 <ais523> OK this is suddenly reminding me a lot of the "treating a runtime value as a type" thing I was talking about a few months ago
19:24:07 <ais523> it's like you have a different monad for each vat
19:24:23 <ais523> but vats are runtime concepts rather than compile-time concepts, you don't have a statically known set of them
19:24:41 <ais523> so you effectively have a type that's parameterized by a runtime value (in this case the vat ID)
19:24:46 <korvo> Huh, I guess. I hadn't thought of that. I suppose that different runtimes can technically have different vat internals, but they'd speak the same wire protocol.
19:25:39 <ais523> I have spent over a year with this being the primary problem I've been thinking about (for the Rust scoped generic things), so anything that fits the pattern, I am likely to notice
19:26:18 <ais523> but you're working with a type system that's quite different from the ones that I'm working with, so the implications may be different
19:27:39 <korvo> I don't see the scoped-generic connection quite yet. But I can see how scoped-ness and generic-ness are related, for sure.
19:28:37 <ais523> I've been meaning to rename them to runtime generics
19:28:45 <korvo> Like, as an optimization for the case where the object that you're delivering to is in the same address space, you'd like to have a scoped generic conversation with that object's vat, hand over control flow, and let the message be delivered. seL4 does small message deliveries like this; messages must fit in registers!
19:29:11 <ais523> the interesting part is that the type is generic on a runtime value, and this can be compile-time checked because it's sufficiently generic that the actual runtime value doesn't matter, the compiler just has to prove that it's always the same
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19:29:54 <ais523> specialising on a particular value would be difficult, but I'm thinking primarily about Rust which hasn't managed to implement specialisation soundly
19:30:05 <ais523> and even the minimal cut-down version which was intended to always be sound is somehow also unsound
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19:30:57 <korvo> Huh. Now that's starting to sound like Haskell ST, where a `forall` is used to force the caller to not control local state. But the caller still gets to initiate the initial control-flow delegation "into" the ST monad.
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19:31:06 <ais523> but as I said, in this case I think the type system is too different to translate well
19:31:25 <korvo> Wow, what a sentence. Maybe "the caller still gets to delegate control flow into..."
19:32:07 <ais523> korvo: OK this is very familiar, the best current Rust approximation for problems that need scoped generics is called "generativity" in the Rust community and it is basically the same trick you described there with the forall
19:32:48 <ais523> (and many implementations even use an actual Rust forall, for<'a>)
19:33:36 <ais523> anyway, /away for a bit, this is a fun conversation but I need to eat
19:33:56 <korvo> ais523: BTW Weiher and I (in different places) have suggested that call/return is a very specific thing that doesn't align with the rest of compositional semantics. https://lobste.rs/s/alzaim/thoughts_on_gentle_tyranny_call_return is a decent starting place.
19:34:10 <korvo> So it could be that what we mean by "caller" is *also* a monad-specific concept.
19:34:20 <korvo> I should eat too. Peace.
19:50:15 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170089 * Esocreator * (+1312) Created page with "=== What is Unpredictabillity === Unpredictabillity is a language that relies on randomness. Its "purpose" is to make everything compact and tiny and basically be the final boss of golflangs. And also be terrible to code in. === Explanation === It wor
19:52:05 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170090&oldid=170089 * Esocreator * (+67)
19:52:34 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170091&oldid=170090 * Esocreator * (-8) /* Quine */
20:02:21 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170092&oldid=170091 * Esocreator * (+740)
20:05:27 <b_jonas> "<korvo> […] the authors of languages like Odin, Zig, Oils and D" => wait, Oils? what is that? I'd heard of the rest
20:07:39 <korvo> b_jonas: https://oils.pub/
20:07:41 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170093&oldid=170092 * Esocreator * (-17) /* Brainfuck to Unpredictabillity Converter in Python */
20:09:06 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170094&oldid=170093 * Esocreator * (-8) /* Brainfuck to Unpredictabillity Converter in Python */
20:09:07 <b_jonas> async/await => didn't ziglang just replace those with something else?
20:09:08 <korvo> It's very funny in retrospect that I went to Google and was all horrified at how people were commodotized, and Andy and Andrew came away from Google with beliefs like "bash sucks" or "C sucks".
20:11:18 <korvo> Yes, Zig is now doing a pattern where they "return into the monad", so to speak; the entire action returns into some chosen I/O context, which can be async or sync or something else. I also accidentally tripped over this pattern in 2012 when wrapping Ganeti: https://github.com/mostawesomeDude/gentleman
20:20:40 <b_jonas> “<ais523> […] the primary problem I've been thinking about (for the Rust scoped generic things)” => we should attract more Haskellers to this channel, because I think they could comment more on a lot of these ideas that you are discussing
20:21:14 <ais523> b_jonas: in my most recent blogpost I mentioned looking in Haskell to try to find the typesystem ideas I needed, because it's almost always had them first
20:22:23 <ais523> <korvo> It's very funny in retrospect that I went to Google and was all horrified at how people were commodotized ← to me, the commoditization of developers is a problem but isn't in the least unexpected, so although it's somewhat horrifying, seeing it in person wouldn't make me more horrified
20:24:14 <ais523> oh wow, just loading that Github link caused a noticeable difference to my (sadly onscreen rather than physical) blinkenlights, I'm not surprised that Github has bloated JS but I didn't expect it to be *that* bloated
20:25:11 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, for sure. It's just like, I don't know. Like somebody looking at Dark City or Cloud Atlas or Metropolis or Blade Runner or Ferngully and saying, "Y'know, running a big machine like that at scale takes a lot of engineering effort. I think I could make this machine much more efficient if I contributed a bunch of open-source labor!"
20:28:56 <zzo38> You can use the GitHub API instead, or add your own script (the JSON data is included with the HTML so you could make your own script to parse that data)
20:29:17 <zzo38> In that case you will not have to use GitHub's bloated scripts; I do not use (or like) GitHub's scripts
20:30:39 <b_jonas> “looking in Haskell” => of course, you should do that too.
20:59:49 <korvo> I had a bagel sandwich. Turkey on pumpernickel, hot mustard.
21:00:36 <korvo> On ais523's suggested I/O API: I looked up execline's wait. https://www.skarnet.org/software/execline/wait.html "wait for one of the listed pids — exec into prog as soon as one of the listed children dies. (If no pid is listed, wait for one child to die.) The ! environment variable will be set to the pid that died, and the ? environment variable will contain an approximation of its exit code." So it supports selecting just one event.
21:01:22 <ais523> selecting one seems OK to me – in a delay-insensitive world it's enough
21:02:09 <ais523> the reasons to be able to select multiple are basically down to a) prioritisation of things that need to happen sooner (e.g. relatime programs or performance optimisations in multithreade programs) and b) avoiding livelocks
21:02:59 <korvo> ais523: You might be interested to know that, in the Joule lineage (E, Monte), we *can't* wait. We can only attach a when-block that will run when the promise resolves in the future. If it resolves, really. This is like always being "in the monad", experientially.
21:03:21 <korvo> We're supposed to always do that in Twisted, EventMachine, Node, etc. but there's ways to dig below the runtime layer. Ditto for e.g. React and its layer.
21:03:46 <ais523> korvo: right, the API call to block is basically the monad runner, but there's no reason for the monad runner to conceptually exist in the language rather than in the runtime
21:06:04 <ais523> (but it needs to exist from the point of view of the OS or wrapper-around-system-calls that provides the API, so that the runtime is possible to write)
21:06:21 <korvo> Yeah. Speed, maybe. Tradition? It used to be the case that the entire system had to contort around a single poll() or select() call; the event loop is literally one specific while-loop.
21:16:07 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170095&oldid=169633 * Waffelz * (+54)
21:16:24 <ais523> fwiw I still think that it's correct for I/O-bound programs to do that (or maybe have a thread on each core and do one poll/select equivalent per thread)
21:16:43 <ais523> although we have better APIs than poll and select nowadays
21:16:56 <ais523> it's still conceptually a single-point API, just with a better interface
21:22:38 <esolangs> [[Brain-accumulator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170096&oldid=170029 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+18) Improved the interpreter's documentation and supplemented a further page category tag.
21:22:46 <b_jonas> ais523: re CPU-bound programs, so my model here is schmorp's modules, and they provide two APIs for this. one is yield, which has an interface like it was an IO action that could block, but doesn't actually block, whenever the event loop next checks for when it's read it'll always be ready and successful and call its callback for that, but there's a forward progress guaranteed that if any other actions
21:22:52 <b_jonas> (of the same or more urgent priority) are ready too then if you yield enough times then something will be handled. the other is idle, which blocks until every action (of the same or more urgent priority) is blocking so there's free CPU time.
21:24:51 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, that makes sense – I was having similar thoughts myself
21:25:29 <ais523> the primary issue here is just to avoid starvation/livelock, which you do by cycling through priorities, and that means that CPU-bound computations need to be able to yield so that they can be outprioritised
21:27:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170097&oldid=169990 * Buckets * (+12)
21:27:53 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170098&oldid=169991 * Buckets * (+11)
21:28:02 <esolangs> [[Copix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170099 * Buckets * (+1084) Created page with "Copix Is an esoteric Programming Language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | i || Push the Input value. |- | a || Negate The top value And add the Top two values. |- | = || Duplicate the Top value. |- | ! || If th
21:29:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170100&oldid=170019 * Buckets * (+129)
21:30:09 <esolangs> [[4gn/]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170101&oldid=170020 * Buckets * (+13)
21:35:59 <korvo> ais523: About threads: what if they're also a traditional solution? Like, we don't just put any actions on long-running threads; it's specifically stuff like audio callbacks or filesystem accesses which (used to be?) time-sensitive interrupts that had their own vectors.
21:36:16 <korvo> Threading discipline, loose as it is, evolved from IRQ-handling discipline.
21:36:37 <ais523> korvo: OK, I think here you have to distinguish threads as a programming model from OS-level threads as an implementation technique
21:36:49 <ais523> I'm not a huge fan for using threads for I/O in *either* case, but the reasons are different in the two cases
21:37:55 <ais523> or, well, they both stem to "threads require a certain amound of bookkeeping to use properly and it's usually a bad match for the purpose for which you actually wanted the thread"
21:38:09 <korvo> ais523: Yeah. The punchline for Vixen is that I think I don't care about threads but I care about locks. I will probably want to be able to serialize accesses to an object s.t. it can't have two method activations at once, which seems like an interesting problem, but I don't care how many threads the kernel is managing.
21:39:08 <ais523> the history of Rust is a bit interesting here, originally it had tasks (same semantics as threads but not necessarily implemented using OS threads), but eventually it removed them
21:39:43 <ais523> but I wasn't paying attention at the time so I'm not sure what the reasoning behind the decision was
21:40:12 <korvo> IIRC it was just a theoretical burden for future embedded toolchains.
21:40:48 <ais523> right, runtimes often don't scale down very well
21:41:33 <ais523> and there are also some awkwardnesses like "you need some way to pre-empt the tasks if you want them to act exactly like threads" – I'm not sure whether old Rust pre-empted them or not
21:41:41 <sorear> threads which last longer than a single user action were a mistake, in general, because they make painless updates and many types of power management impossible
21:44:53 <korvo> sorear: A pattern: C++ `inline` guarantees that the code is copied to the call site. E `PassByCopy` and `CopyByConstruction` (sp?) guarantees that an object/method is copyable over the network. seL4 something something, declare that a micro-message is okay, promise not to touch registers.
21:45:33 <korvo> Pass some memory. Promise you won't go outside the memory. Do it quickly. You can only have a tiny bit of my control flow, maybe a single-use continuation to abort early.
21:50:26 <korvo> Sorry, I'm getting weird. Later.
22:46:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ImOnlyHereForReversibleComputing * New user account
22:53:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170102&oldid=170085 * ImOnlyHereForReversibleComputing * (+247)
22:59:00 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170103&oldid=170007 * Tommyaweosme * (+417) added self-promo + a few other things
23:01:30 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170104&oldid=170103 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) update counter; day 1/1845 (0.0542% completed)
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00:08:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:Archway]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170105 * ImOnlyHereForReversibleComputing * (+3504) Created page with "== Computational Class of Archway1 == So, I'm around 20 years late here, but although this article seems to imply otherwise, Archway1 is actually Turing complete. This is easy to prove once you realize that Archway1 is actually ''reversibl
00:27:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Archway]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170106&oldid=170105 * Ais523 * (+993) /* Computational Class of Archway1 */ reply
00:39:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:67]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170107 * Tommyaweosme * (+109) Created page with "67 [[User:Tommyaweosme|tommyaweosme the 23nd]] [[User_talk:tommyaweosme|(talk)]] ~~~~~"
00:47:47 <esolangs> [[Reversible Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170108&oldid=138922 * Tommyaweosme * (+779) added hello world
01:53:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Load]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170109&oldid=169877 * I am islptng * (+219)
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02:44:33 <esolangs> [[QX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170110&oldid=170082 * PkmnQ * (+14) /* Computational class */ For the proof on the Brainpocalypse page, there is no limit
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03:40:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mqymwb1009 * New user account
03:44:02 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170111&oldid=169605 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+17) /* Semantics */ tiles -> single character tiles
03:46:11 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170112&oldid=170111 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-3) /* Semantics */
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03:52:48 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170113&oldid=170112 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-12) /* Real tiles */
03:54:09 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170114&oldid=170113 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* The copying rule */
03:54:36 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170115&oldid=170114 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* The copying rule */
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03:56:38 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170116&oldid=170115 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-406) /* adding random programs onto eachother to see if it does anything */
04:09:45 <zzo38> Is there a standard way in a ASN.1 schema to specify which control characters are allowed in a ISO 2022 string? The existing way seems to be only all (GeneralString) or nothing (GraphicString). I think it is usually useful to restrict which control characters can be used in a ISO 2022 string, and nonstandard extensions can be made if necessary.
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05:07:28 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170117&oldid=170073 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+28) /* esolangs */
05:34:06 <esolangs> [[3D Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170118 * Mun Hammer * (+3895) Creation of the page
05:35:32 <esolangs> [[3D Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170119&oldid=170118 * Mun Hammer * (-10) Removing remnants of previous markdown formatting
05:37:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170120&oldid=170097 * Mun Hammer * (+19) added 3D Brainfuck
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06:24:00 <esolangs> [[3D Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170121&oldid=170119 * Mun Hammer * (-6) Realized that, for the array, moving isn't always needed
06:58:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170122&oldid=169792 * PrySigneToFry * (+438) /* Abuse filter triggered during editing */ new section
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09:40:17 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170123&oldid=170094 * Esocreator * (+112)
09:40:58 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170124&oldid=170123 * Esocreator * (-22) /* Tetris (The second character may appear differently depending on system encoding) */
09:50:53 <esolangs> [[BrainDeque]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170125 * PrySigneToFry * (+11922) Created page with "BrainDeque is designed by PSTF. It is based on Deque, instead of Tape. == Command Table == <pre> > - Push 0 to right end < - Push 0 to left end + - Increment front element - - Decrement front element . - Output front element as ASCII , - Input characte
09:51:42 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170126&oldid=170120 * PrySigneToFry * (+30)
09:55:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170127 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+247) Created page with "I dont get why Find zero to the right is invalid. Is it just because it has no mneonimic(however you spell it) commands that fit? --~~~~"
09:56:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Phong * New user account
10:00:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170128&oldid=170102 * Phong * (+166)
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11:03:00 <esolangs> [[A Combinator Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170129&oldid=169588 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+30)
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12:05:18 <esolangs> [[Utral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170130&oldid=169020 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+5) /* Examples */
12:06:21 <esolangs> [[Utral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170131&oldid=170130 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+7) /* Examples */
12:09:30 <esolangs> [[Utral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170132&oldid=170131 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+40) /* Examples */
13:08:28 <esolangs> [[A Delusion of Control]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170133&oldid=170056 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+31) /* Command set */
13:13:52 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170134&oldid=169773 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+15) /* Rewrite rules */
13:14:03 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170135&oldid=170134 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0)
13:22:59 <esolangs> [[Gemini/Palette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170136 * PrySigneToFry * (+2229) Created page with "{{Back|Gemini}} Here are some color styles for the Gemini program. = Rainbow = <font color="#ff0000">keyword</font> <font color="#ff7f00">globalVariable</font> <font color="#ffff00">localVariable</font> <font color="#7fff00">function</font> <font col
13:26:29 <esolangs> [[Gemini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170137&oldid=170059 * PrySigneToFry * (+149)
13:44:23 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170138&oldid=169899 * Hammy * (+183)
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14:22:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Codeio * New user account
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15:24:04 <HackEso> ERROR: You should not transpose what you can't transpose. Yes this is an easteregg! \ 0
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15:43:19 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170139&oldid=170138 * Hammy * (+1615) /* Featured Examples */
15:43:35 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170140&oldid=170139 * Hammy * (+3) /* Featured Esolang! */
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16:21:17 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170141 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+3631) Describe the language, a very simple recursive one.
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16:43:12 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170142&oldid=170141 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-3) /* Semantics and functions */
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16:50:07 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170143&oldid=170142 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+25) /* Semantics and Syntax */
17:02:11 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170144 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2285) Demonstarte the string based Srinivasa!
17:02:25 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170145&oldid=170144 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+8) /* Computational class */
17:03:16 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170146&oldid=170145 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+68) /* Computational class */
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17:19:36 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170147&oldid=170146 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2445) /* Computational class */
17:21:41 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170148&oldid=170147 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+328) /* Computational class */
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17:35:08 <int-e> okay, today's AoC twist was annoying
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18:08:53 <fizzie> First time this year (and maybe in a longer while) that I did part 1 in Burlesque first, to find out the twist.
18:09:49 <fizzie> `blsq "123 328 51 64 \n 45 64 387 23 \n 6 98 215 314\n* + * + " lnl_ttpstpjWD{'.+]psr[}Z]++
18:10:44 <fizzie> Also learned that all of tt, ps and ri automagically do what it calls "deepmap" when applied to a block. (Burlesque's real inconsistent on which builtins do that.)
18:18:05 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170149&oldid=170143 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+171) /* Semantics and Syntax */
18:18:41 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/signature]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170150 * Hammy2 * (+147) Created page with "[[User:Hammy|H]][[User talk:Hammy|a]][[Special:Contributions/Hammy|m]][[User:Esolangist/Sandbox|m]][[User:Esolangist/personal talk page|y]] {{{1}}}"
18:19:05 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170151&oldid=170149 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+21) /* Semantics and Syntax */
18:19:50 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170152&oldid=170151 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+23) /* Semantics and Syntax */
18:27:38 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170153&oldid=170152 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+170) /* Semantics and Syntax */
18:38:11 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/signature]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170154&oldid=170150 * Hammy2 * (+127)
18:47:03 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170155&oldid=170153 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+914)
18:47:57 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170156&oldid=170155 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+40) /* Computational class */
18:48:16 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170157&oldid=170156 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Computational class */
18:48:31 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170158&oldid=170157 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Computational class */
18:58:37 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170159&oldid=170158 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+141) /* Variants */
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20:31:28 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/test3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170160 * Hammy2 * (+35) Created page with "How to learn "{{User:Hammy/test4}}""
20:32:16 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/test4]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170161 * Hammy2 * (+56) Created page with "How to learn "{{User:Hammy/How to learn this language}}""
20:33:27 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/How to learn this language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170162 * Hammy2 * (+147) Created page with "<noinclude> This is the full name of [[How to learn this language]]. </noinclude> How to learn "How to learn "How to learn "{{User:Hammy/test3}}""""
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20:51:05 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/Template:you]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170163 * Hammy2 * (+62) Created page with "<span class="insertusername">{{{1|<insert name here>}}}</span>"
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22:03:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170164&oldid=170126 * Buckets * (+12)
22:03:50 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170165&oldid=170098 * Buckets * (+11)
22:04:03 <esolangs> [[Stile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170166 * Buckets * (+1540) Created page with "Stile is an Esoteric programming language Created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | <b> and </b> || Sandwich the Two cells to The left Of the Current Cell and to the right Of the Current cell and make the Current cell th
22:41:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jack * New user account
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23:33:32 <impomatic> Core War Challenge (Difficult): Write a program to spawn 8000 processes and fill the entire memory with JMP 0 instructions, with one process running each JMP.
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00:54:23 <int-e> Well, that was weird: my systemd lost all its open fds except for 0, 1, and 2?!
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00:58:53 <int-e> (I mean I did something weird: I had accidentally accumulated enough mounts that `mount` took over 3 seconds to complete. But still... didn't expect `init` to become completely unresponsive. I had to jump through hoops just to reboot.)
01:06:51 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170167&oldid=170104 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) update counter; day 2/1845 (0.1084% completed)
01:17:04 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170168&oldid=170167 * Aadenboy * (+73) making the countdown automatic (also no idea where you got 1485 from)
01:18:08 <esolangs> [[Google Slides]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170169 * Tommyaweosme * (+1154) technically an esolang, just a pain to program anything useful in.
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01:50:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Load]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170170&oldid=170109 * None1 * (+309)
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02:12:50 <int-e> So... follow-up to that one: why does systemd make all mount points MS_SHARED by default? namespaces(7) mumbles something about this being more useful, and I don't quite see why.
02:15:04 <int-e> (And FWIW, I definitely did *not* want the /proc mount that reflects my new PID namespace inside my new mount namespace to propagate to the host, every single time that I create it.)
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02:53:57 <ais523> <impomatic> Core War Challenge (Difficult): Write a program to spawn 8000 processes and fill the entire memory with JMP 0 instructions, with one process running each JMP. ← oh this is beautiful, it's basically the same problem as the "self-deleting program problem" except easier to specify and multithreaded
03:03:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170171&oldid=170122 * Ais523 * (+1223) /* Abuse filter triggered during editing */ that page is written in an excessively verbose style
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03:27:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170172&oldid=170128 * Mker-bin * (+159) /* Introductions */
03:29:14 <esolangs> [[User:Mker-bin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170173 * Mker-bin * (+157) Introducing myself as Mker-bin
03:54:40 <esolangs> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170174&oldid=70332 * Ais523 * (-16) /* Examples */ StackFlow isn't a ZISC
04:11:55 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170175&oldid=170168 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) consistency
04:45:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:OOo CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170176&oldid=33527 * Tommyaweosme * (+246)
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05:34:13 <esolangs> [[B-tapemark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170177&oldid=65399 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-9) /* Examples */ "Copy input to output" -> "Cat program"
05:52:27 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170178&oldid=170175 * Tommyaweosme * (-8265) cleaned up userpage, relevant content has been kept.
06:19:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:90]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170179&oldid=144339 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+69) /* the 90 instruction itself */
06:26:50 <esolangs> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170180&oldid=170174 * PkmnQ * (+26) This might be more fitting
06:28:16 <esolangs> [[Fluid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170181&oldid=169408 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-18) /* Implementations */
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10:47:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170182&oldid=154905 * None1 * (+375) /* Cellular automaton rules */ new section
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13:00:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * * New user account
13:07:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170183&oldid=170172 * * (+266) /* Introductions */ Introduced myself.
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13:28:30 <esolangs> [[Meu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170184 * Timm * (+815) Created page with "{{stub}} Meu me meu meumeum Meu is cat esolang ==MAIN== Meu! Meu. Meu? Meu!? Meu?! valid Meus Output Do Input Def End {| class="wikitable" |+ Meu. Meu do |- ! count of Meu !! what do !! type |- | 1 || var X value Y || X str Y int |- | 2 || add X and Y store in Z || X int/va
13:29:01 <esolangs> [[Meu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170185&oldid=170184 * Timm * (-7)
13:29:34 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170186&oldid=170042 * Timm * (+9)
13:29:50 <esolangs> [[Dipsh!t]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170187&oldid=169420 * * (+476) Added an "implementation".
13:30:22 <esolangs> [[Waves]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170188&oldid=169884 * Timm * (+9)
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14:03:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170189&oldid=170183 * PhongEsolang369 * (+153)
14:08:00 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170190&oldid=164742 * PhongEsolang369 * (+1681)
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14:21:18 <fizzie> Ugh. Either Burlesque doesn't have a set subtraction builtin, or I've forgotten what it's called.
14:21:27 <fizzie> `blsq {1 2 3 4 5 6 7} {3 4 5} {j~[n!}j+]f[ " had to use this terrible thing "vv
14:23:44 <fizzie> Not to mention how much trouble I had in getting from {{a 1} {a 2} {a 3} {b 4} {b 5}} to {{a 6} {b 9}}.
14:25:22 <fizzie> `blsq {{11 1} {11 2} {11 3} {22 4} {22 5}} {-]j-]==}gb{tpp^-]j++_+}m[ " there *must* be a better way... "vv
15:19:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170191&oldid=170182 * Corbin * (+485) /* Cellular automaton rules */
15:33:07 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170192&oldid=169943 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-5386) Clean up my user page a little
15:52:42 <esolangs> [[Lye]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170193&oldid=98276 * Corbin * (+896) Found a copy of the grammar. Still looking for example programs.
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17:51:05 <esolangs> [[Dipsh!t]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170194&oldid=170187 * Ractangle * (-26) you specified that the interpriter isn't a real interpriter, so adding the "implemented" category is redundent
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18:23:09 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170195&oldid=168495 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-5979) Blanked the page
18:23:33 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170196&oldid=168496 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-20851) Blanked the page
18:28:44 <esolangs> [[Dipsh!t]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170197&oldid=170194 * * (+0)
18:30:20 <esolangs> [[Corbin Simpson]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170198 * Corbin * (+603) About myself? I'm still not making a user page.
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19:47:37 <esolangs> [[User:Rottytooth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170199&oldid=155821 * Rottytooth * (+33)
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20:29:32 <esolangs> [[UserMade]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170200 * Esolangist alt * (+267) Esolangist alt
21:31:07 <int-e> fizzie: hmm, it's list based, right? \\ may be the right thing for a difference.
21:31:30 <int-e> > [1,2,1,3] \\ [3,1]
21:31:56 <int-e> with this oddity that it treats list as multisets
21:32:22 <int-e> (oh and quadratic complexity of course)
21:49:57 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170201 * A() * (+1478) Created page with "[[Basic Binaries]] is a low-level Esolang made by [[User:A()]]. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Cmd !! Op code !! Explaination |- | sta || 00000001 || Starts program |- | end (or hlt) || 00000010 || Ends program |- | ltr || 00000011 || Load to
21:50:52 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170202&oldid=170201 * A() * (+24)
21:51:59 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170203&oldid=170202 * A() * (+18)
21:52:50 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170204&oldid=170203 * A() * (+14)
21:54:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170205&oldid=170164 * A() * (+21) /* B */
21:54:50 <esolangs> [[User:A()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170206&oldid=163631 * A() * (+20) /* Esolangs */
21:57:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170207&oldid=170205 * A() * (+161) /* K */
22:19:39 <esolangs> [[DTM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170208 * Mker-bin * (+1490) Introducing DTM
22:28:11 <esolangs> [[Brain-accumulator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170209&oldid=170096 * A() * (+38)
22:31:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170210&oldid=170207 * Buckets * (+11)
22:32:11 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170211&oldid=170165 * Buckets * (+10)
22:32:19 <esolangs> [[Emds]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170212 * Buckets * (+1616) Created page with "Emds Is an Esoteric Programming language Created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 1 || Start an IP, facing Leftwards. |- | . || End an IP. |- | 6 || Create another IP if an IP Makes contact With It. |- | ( || Toggles Bet
22:33:31 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170213&oldid=170204 * A() * (+112)
22:33:50 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170214&oldid=170213 * A() * (+0)
22:34:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170215&oldid=170210 * Mker-bin * (+10) /* D */
22:40:44 <esolangs> [[DTM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170216&oldid=170208 * Mker-bin * (+97) Adding link
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23:15:45 <esolangs> [[LETTER]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170217 * A() * (+654) Created page with "[[LETTER]] is a [[BF]] equalivent by [[User:A()]] ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! [[BF]] !! Cmd |- | ] || Let's move on parhaps? |- | [ || So hello! |- | + || Very great news! |- | - || Unpleasent news. |- | > || You might thinking, |- | < || But, |- | , |
23:21:28 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170218 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+53) Redirected page to [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]]
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23:23:26 <esolangs> [[EsoGoogle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170219 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+59) Created page with "uhhh #REDIRECT [http://google.com here go to google.com...]"
23:24:27 <esolangs> [[EsoGoogle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170220&oldid=170219 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-59) Blanked the page
23:24:49 <esolangs> [[Crash1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170221 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+20) Redirected page to [[Crash2]]
23:25:02 <esolangs> [[Crash2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170222 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+20) Redirected page to [[Crash1]]
23:26:00 <esolangs> [[EsoCrash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170223 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+49) Created page with "uhhh dont go to: [[Crash1|{totally normal link}]]"
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23:39:04 <fizzie> Didn't think of searching for "difference".
23:39:48 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170224&oldid=170214 * A() * (+183)
23:56:46 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170225&oldid=170224 * A() * (+495) Redirected page to [[BB]]
23:57:18 <esolangs> [[BB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170226 * A() * (+24) Created page with "BB is [[Basic Binaries]]"
23:57:35 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170227&oldid=170225 * Aadenboy * (-18) remove erroneous redirect
23:58:07 <esolangs> [[BB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170228&oldid=170226 * Aadenboy * (+4) Redirected page to [[Basic Binaries]]
00:10:27 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170229&oldid=169999 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+30)
00:14:25 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170230&oldid=170229 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+90)
00:48:47 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sing.with.me]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170231&oldid=170060 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-1598) Redirected page to [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]]
00:48:56 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170232 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+1638) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sing.with.me |author=[[User:Sawyer.go0923]] |year=[[Category:2025]] |class=Joke }} '''Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sin
00:55:42 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170233&oldid=170232 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-110)
00:58:01 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170234&oldid=170233 * Aadenboy * (+49) /* Example program */
00:58:54 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170235&oldid=170234 * Aadenboy * (-2) /* Hello, world! */ minimize jank
01:14:40 <fizzie> Also swapped part 2 from using an alist-like thing (with that horrible merge) to a list of counts for every column, because then it's just a matter of ?+ to combine them. Now part 2 is shorter than part 1. (But also noticeably slower for the full output.)
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01:27:43 <korvo> I don't think I'm going to finish this blog post tonight, so: feedback? This is for Raku's 2025 advent blogging event. https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/85f67849575fafb76becb6c9ebaa7604
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04:29:08 <esolangs> [[Pur]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170236&oldid=165917 * Purboi * (+168) add and add
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06:20:30 <esolangs> [[3D Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170237&oldid=170121 * Mun Hammer * (+0) Realised that V is better than _
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08:53:46 <esolangs> [[Noassign]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170238&oldid=37184 * JIT * (+33)
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10:14:09 <esolangs> [[UCHSHOPPLWANPAATILIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170239&oldid=121923 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-29) /* Implementation */ oops gotta actually take it off
10:45:36 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170240&oldid=170235 * PkmnQ * (+2) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/170235|170235]] by [[Special:Contributions/Aadenboy|Aadenboy]] ([[User talk:Aadenboy|talk]])
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11:56:08 <esolangs> [[Hippopotomonstrosesquipedalian]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170241&oldid=107911 * * (+329) Added explanation of commands from language autor's GitHub.
11:57:44 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170242&oldid=167309 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+31) /* syntax */
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13:47:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Demetrius55 * New user account
13:58:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170243&oldid=170189 * Demetrius55 * (+220)
14:04:48 <esolangs> [[!English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170244&oldid=163393 * MihaiEso * (+19)
14:05:46 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170245&oldid=169015 * RikoMamaBala * (+129)
14:07:46 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170246&oldid=165569 * MihaiEso * (+98) /* More data */
14:19:25 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170247&oldid=170245 * * (+31) /* Print the name of this esolang */
14:30:20 <esolangs> [[A Delusion of Control]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170248&oldid=170133 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-18) /* Command set */
14:36:29 <esolangs> [[A Delusion of Control]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170249&oldid=170248 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-49) /* Command set */
14:36:40 <esolangs> [[A Delusion of Control]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170250&oldid=170249 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Command set */
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14:46:39 <esolangs> [[User:Demetrius55]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170251 * Demetrius55 * (+1296) Created page with "==List of created languages== :''I haven't made any languages yet. Feel free to inspire me in the discussion. '' ==Something unuseful about me== ===What was my introduce yourself?=== It was: <p style="background-color: black; color: white;">Good
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15:55:27 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170252&oldid=170240 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+59)
15:58:07 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170253&oldid=170252 * Aadenboy * (+15) clarification
16:17:17 <esolangs> [[Interval Hue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170254 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+1584) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Interval Hue |author=[[User:Sawyer.go0923]] |year=2025 |memsys=None }} '''Interval Hue''' is a language with only one cell. The cell can go up to '''16777216''' then ''16777217'' will be back to ''0''. == Commands == {| class="wikit
16:17:28 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170255&oldid=170230 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-32)
16:30:14 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170256&oldid=166412 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-24) /* examples */
16:30:32 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170257&oldid=170070 * Aadenboy * (-48) /* anything else */ optimization
16:33:07 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170258&oldid=169427 * Aadenboy * (+12) change to strong and uncontractionize
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16:37:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Stub]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170259 * Aadenboy * (+340) Created page with "probably Turing-complete by using [[arbitrary memory emulation]] ~~~~"
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17:24:23 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170260&oldid=170257 * Aadenboy * (+42) /* my own esolangs */ [[Iterate]] obsession
17:24:49 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170261&oldid=170260 * Aadenboy * (-42) silly. don't fdo that
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18:25:43 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares/Oscillators]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170262 * Aadenboy * (+2397) some more observation
18:27:21 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170263&oldid=169815 * Aadenboy * (+4) relink
18:27:39 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170264&oldid=170261 * Aadenboy * (+8) /* anything else */
18:28:05 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/randomuserpage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170265&oldid=170071 * Aadenboy * (+8)
18:36:57 <esolangs> [[Dot.Y]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170266 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2795) Created page with "'''Dot.Y''' is an Esoteric Programming Language devised by [[User:Yayimhere]], as a "deconstructed" version of [[Karvity]](which as such would lead to Doddity, which is shortened to Dot.Y). It is quite complex, compared to some other esolangs, however is defini
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19:45:42 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares/Oscillators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170267&oldid=170262 * Aadenboy * (+70) fix errata
20:21:49 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170268&oldid=170258 * * (+18)
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20:35:04 <esolangs> [[UNO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170269 * Esolangist alt * (+3023) Esolangist alt
20:38:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:UNO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170270 * * (+544) Created page with "I actually planned making this <span style="background-color: green;">[[User:|<span style="color: white;">mario</span>]]</span><span style="background-color: yellow;">[[User talk:|<span style="color: black;">maker</span>]]</span><span style="background-color: red;">[[Special:C
21:03:12 <esolangs> [[Solus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170271&oldid=169245 * H33T33 * (+134)
21:07:20 <esolangs> [[Solus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170272&oldid=170271 * H33T33 * (+150)
21:07:58 <esolangs> [[Solus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170273&oldid=170272 * H33T33 * (-2)
21:08:16 <esolangs> [[Solus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170274&oldid=170273 * H33T33 * (+1)
21:12:08 <int-e> impomatic: have I done it? https://paste.debian.net/1412986/
21:12:41 <esolangs> [[Bliss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170275&oldid=169247 * H33T33 * (+11)
21:16:34 <esolangs> [[Self++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170276&oldid=167530 * H33T33 * (-65)
22:21:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Buckets * uploaded "[[File:HelloWorldProgramInGIFt.gif]]": This Is a "Hello, World!" Program in GIFt.
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22:24:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170278&oldid=170215 * Buckets * (+11)
22:25:28 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170279&oldid=170211 * Buckets * (+10)
22:25:59 <esolangs> [[Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170280&oldid=151057 * Buckets * (+39)
22:26:11 <esolangs> [[GIFt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170281 * Buckets * (+1223) Created page with ": ''Not to be confused with [[Gift]]'' GIFt is An Esoteric programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2023. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Octal Digit !! Instructions |- | 0 || Add the Delay to the Current cell modulo 256. |- | 1 || Toggles between Setting an input Va
22:26:22 <esolangs> [[GIFt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170282&oldid=170281 * Buckets * (+1)
22:36:59 <esolangs> [[Gift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170283&oldid=170280 * Aadenboy * (-8) proper template
22:37:08 <esolangs> [[GIFt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170284&oldid=170282 * Aadenboy * (-8) proper template
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22:57:26 <esolangs> [[Gift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170285&oldid=170283 * * (+101) /* Examples */
23:13:45 <int-e> No reply. Of course.
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01:03:05 <int-e> I must say that the relative to target indirect addressing of Core War is quite cute. Oh and the threading model rhymes with BOX-256.
01:06:36 <int-e> something that had a brief moment of popularity on here 9 years ago: http://box-256.com/ (and that I revisted even more briefly half a year ago)
01:07:36 <int-e> I forgot that that site doesn't support https, fun.
01:10:31 <int-e> > sha256sum box256_v12.zip
01:10:32 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: sha256sum :: t0 -> ([b0] -> [(a, b0)]) -> cVariable n...
01:10:33 <int-e> 546b622f69dd937e1c0ed21061cbc6c617764ed986c34d6302d55094bec0a4a2 box256_v12.zip
01:10:50 <int-e> at least that matches what I downloaded 9.4 years ago :-)
01:11:22 <int-e> (works in wine, that's how I played)
01:11:41 <b_jonas> can you put a stub article to the esowiki so we can find it?
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02:12:45 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170286 * Int-e * (+2608) let's call it semi-stubby
02:13:57 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170287&oldid=170286 * Int-e * (-3) /* Execution model */ obligatory first view fix
02:42:02 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170288&oldid=170287 * Int-e * (+190) categories
02:43:58 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170289&oldid=170288 * Int-e * (+11) /* Instructions */ add missing description
02:57:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Crash1]]": was created as a broken redirect
02:58:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Crash2]]": was created as a broken redirect
02:58:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[EsoCrash]]": not an esolang
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03:09:51 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170290&oldid=170289 * Int-e * (+1844) More on opcodes.
03:10:47 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170291&oldid=170290 * Int-e * (-1) /* Opcodes */ math
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03:12:50 <int-e> Eh that's enough for now. There are no doubt typos to find and other things to polish.
03:21:26 <esolangs> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170292&oldid=170180 * Xysdd * (+0) as talk page
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03:29:26 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, that rings a bell! thank you for creating the article
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03:35:27 <b_jonas> int-e: can you end a thread somehow? or do they linger forever
03:35:36 <int-e> they go on forever
03:36:06 <int-e> the game stops if you have drawn the target picture at the end of some cycle
03:37:43 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170293&oldid=170291 * Int-e * (+141) /* Execution model */ halting, or lack thereof
03:38:27 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170294&oldid=170293 * Int-e * (-1) /* Opcodes */ typo
03:48:35 <int-e> Anyway, I tweaked it a bit more, so here's my attempt at impomatic's Core War puzzle ( ttps://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-12-06.html#lrc ): https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/omnipresence.txt
04:06:29 <b_jonas> how many colors does BOX-256 have? if it's just 16 then there's probably a theoretical universal program that iterates over all 2↑1024 pictures.
04:06:51 <int-e> yeah there are such programs
04:06:52 <b_jonas> obviously nobody has that sort of time
04:07:16 <b_jonas> and if I did I'd just use it to solve private key cryptography rather than picture drawing puzzles
04:07:21 <int-e> somebody(tm) had the time to write such programs at least :-P
04:08:29 <int-e> b_jonas: a coupld of the names may be familiar: https://old.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4g5e6r/universal_box256_solution_solves_all_challenges/
04:09:14 <b_jonas> (admittedly 256 bytes of memory including program might be tight for cryptography)
04:09:39 <int-e> presumably if you had the time you could also find a bit more memory somewhere
04:10:41 <int-e> (also I hate reddit just enough to not link it on the wiki :-P)
04:17:12 <b_jonas> as for cryptography, have you ever thought of the hypothetical universe where public key cryptography is impossible (eg. because quantum computers break elliptic key based schemes, and all the attempts to develop quantum-resistant schemes turn out to be flawed)? trusted certificate authorities would, instead of signing public keys, give any pair of hosts that want to communicate a shared symmetric key.
04:17:18 <b_jonas> you'd keey symmetric keys to several certificate authorities, and to bootstrap, either you get a key from someone else you trust, or you get some bootstrap keys with your computer hardware that the hardware reseller installs with the operating system. and every time two paranoid people meet, instead of key-signing, they could do a test that would raise an alarm if exactly one of them has a bogus
04:17:24 <b_jonas> supposed key towards a certificate authority.
04:18:52 <b_jonas> you could also probably buy scratch-off cards with symmetric keys in physical stores, or get them in snail mail
04:20:20 <b_jonas> authenticated with hard to counterfeit holographic seals the sort that credit cards have, and if the trusted scratch-off card maker ever sells bogus keys (attempting a man in the middle attack) then you could detect that if you already have a valid key towards the certificate authority
04:20:50 <b_jonas> so if any supposedly trusted scratch-off card manufacturer attempts that news would probably go around and they'd no longer remain trusted
04:20:59 <b_jonas> it works kind of simialr to certificate authorities
04:21:03 <int-e> I have not, not in such concrete terms. At least Shamir Secret Sharing will still work, so you can split keys across several keepers.
04:21:13 <b_jonas> like in the public key cryptography world
04:23:27 <b_jonas> and of course all of this nice theory would fail in the real world for the same practical political reasons as they fail in our current public key crypto world
04:23:45 <sorear> I think you just invented Kerberos
04:24:31 <korvo> This is Impagliazzo's Minicrypt, I think.
04:24:49 <b_jonas> there's a more practical cryptography thing that I want to complain about here, but it's too late tonight for that
04:25:09 <korvo> https://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2004/06/impagliazzos-five-worlds.html for those who haven't seen it. Really great paper.
04:25:30 <sorear> there are at least six worlds; there is an oracle separation between PKE and IBE now
04:58:04 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170295&oldid=170117 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+12) /* esolangs */ add Dot.Y
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05:12:44 <esolangs> [[Interval Hue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170296&oldid=170254 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+1440)
05:23:33 <esolangs> [[Macroplace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170297 * Timm * (+265) Created page with "replace and macros [want to replace] => [to replace] [want to replace] => -^[to output]^- -v- is input [name] :=> [replace] ex h :=> out => -^h^- now h will output h order matters [want to replace] => {random(valid)} random letter with love [[User:Timm]]"
05:23:59 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170298&oldid=170186 * Timm * (+16)
05:59:27 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170299&oldid=170256 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-49) /* examples */
05:59:43 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170300&oldid=170299 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1) /* examples */
05:59:49 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170301&oldid=167551 * Placeholding * (+62)
06:00:23 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170302&oldid=170300 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-156) /* examples */
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07:27:15 <esolangs> [[Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170303&oldid=170041 * Timm * (+6)
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08:44:52 <esolangs> [[Abstraction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170304&oldid=169580 * JIT * (+31)
08:45:33 <esolangs> [[Rune]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170305&oldid=169613 * JIT * (+31)
08:46:33 <esolangs> [[Cat do end]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170306&oldid=169417 * JIT * (+23)
08:47:09 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170307&oldid=169652 * JIT * (+24)
08:48:07 <esolangs> [[CatFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170308&oldid=169882 * JIT * (+33)
08:48:40 <esolangs> [[Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170309&oldid=170303 * JIT * (+24)
08:49:18 <esolangs> [[Meu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170310&oldid=170185 * JIT * (+24)
08:50:00 <esolangs> [[Macroplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170311&oldid=170297 * JIT * (+24)
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09:48:39 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170312&oldid=170295 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-12) /* esolangs */
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09:52:05 <esolangs> [[SubI machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170313&oldid=120654 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-29) /* External Resources */ im too tired to prove this turing complete but it's not *proven* TC so it should. be listed so.
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09:53:17 <esolangs> [[SubI machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170314&oldid=170313 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-155) /* Turing-completeness */ delete the section cuz it again aint proven
10:28:00 <esolangs> [[Dot.Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170315&oldid=170266 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-2795) theres a lot of not good stuff here so I'd rather delete it
10:52:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System/File System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170316&oldid=167027 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+465) /* Other idea */
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11:03:04 <b_jonas> korvo, sorear: these days I can also imagine some annoying worlds where public key cryptography is somewhat possible but has limitations
11:04:00 <b_jonas> like public key cryptography is possible only if you have an expensive quantum computer, and even then you can only do key exchange but not public key signatures because the keys can only be used once
11:04:55 <b_jonas> or public key cryptography is possible but requires exchanging large amounts of data – there are already public key algorithms intended to be quantum-safe like that, but it's not clear if they're the only ones possible.
11:06:25 <b_jonas> or public key cryptography is possible but we have to go through two decades of flawed primitives until we eventually get good ones
11:07:54 <b_jonas> or public key cryptography is possible but all the primitives that cryptographers can develop have big side-channel attacks unless you use specific expensive hardware support
11:08:58 <b_jonas> I *think* we don't live in these worlds, we live in the good one where public key cryptography is possible on our existing computers at a reasonable cost, but it's hard to be quite sure yet
11:29:18 <esolangs> [[Kimi daro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170317 * Timm * (+416) Created page with "{{stub}} k,m,d,r i,a,o u == THIS IS CONLANG == kimi [num] output [num] daro return input kiro [num] [num2] return [num]-[num2] dami [num] [num2] [var] jump to line [num] if [var = 0 else jump to [num2] kamo [text] [num] make var named [text] sets value to [num] or se
11:30:37 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170318&oldid=170298 * Timm * (+15)
11:35:17 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170319&oldid=170253 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+73)
11:38:31 <b_jonas> another annoying variant is if key exchange is only possible interactively in many round trips, and key pairs can only be used once because multiple interactive exchanges would leak the private key.
11:39:04 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if this one is actually possible.
11:40:06 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170320&oldid=170319 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
11:40:50 <b_jonas> I think it only works if you can (at least with some probability) also fake an exchange if you know the other party's private key.
11:54:03 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170321&oldid=170320 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-116) /* Notes */
11:54:50 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170322&oldid=170321 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-4)
12:04:15 <b_jonas> (maybe TCS experts already have impossibility proofs against half of the ones I listed above)
12:14:30 <esolangs> [[Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170323&oldid=170285 * None1 * (+1) /* Interepters: */ Fix typo
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12:41:49 <esolangs> [[Labubu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170324&oldid=160822 * * (-43) Broken link deleted.
12:43:07 <esolangs> [[Exclaim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170325&oldid=160819 * * (-25) /* See also */ Broken link fixed.
12:52:24 <esolangs> [[Esoteric units of information]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170326&oldid=104834 * * (-8) /* Binary (boolean) logic and gates */ Broken link fixed.
12:53:37 <esolangs> [[Kimi daro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170327&oldid=170317 * JIT * (+24) you gotta add those important categories, timm, or else they'll not be in the list of languages (the auto one)
12:58:27 <esolangs> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170328&oldid=96916 * * (+19) /* Bug Reports */ Broken link fixed.
12:59:56 <esolangs> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170329&oldid=164016 * * (+14) /* Interpreter */ Broken link fixed.
13:01:19 <esolangs> [[Rflct]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170330&oldid=70975 * * (+8) Broken link fixed.
13:02:43 <esolangs> [[IPAlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170331&oldid=130143 * * (+1) Broken link fixed.
13:05:45 <esolangs> [[Uniode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170332&oldid=145838 * * (-1) /* Disord eslang */ Broken link fixed.
13:07:49 <esolangs> [[KanjiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170333&oldid=71455 * * (+16) /* Introduction */ Broken link fixed.
13:09:33 <esolangs> [[Finite Groups]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170334&oldid=16800 * * (-19) /* Computational class */ Broken link fixed.
13:12:40 <esolangs> [[Pairpointing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170335&oldid=130049 * * (+0) /* Examples */ Broken link fixed.
13:19:18 <esolangs> [[Truth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170336&oldid=108693 * * (+20) Broken link fixed.
13:24:24 <esolangs> [[KanjiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170337&oldid=170333 * * (-3) /* Introduction */ Broken link fixed.
13:42:34 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170338&oldid=163989 * * (-3) Broken link fixed.
13:43:49 <esolangs> [[Cmpilr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170339&oldid=92751 * * (-21) Broken link fixed.
14:20:01 <esolangs> [[Esoteric units of information]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170340&oldid=170326 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-3) /* trit */ Malbolge makes mo0re sense than TRINITERCALE.
14:24:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * JIT * moved [[A programming language is a system of notation for writing computer programs.]] to [[A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]]: update
14:24:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * JIT * moved [[Talk:A programming language is a system of notation for writing computer programs.]] to [[Talk:A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]]: update
14:25:37 <esolangs> [[A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170345&oldid=170341 * JIT * (+108)
14:26:01 <esolangs> [[Template:Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170346&oldid=109329 * JIT * (+5)
14:27:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * JIT * uploaded "[[File:Expressingcomputerprograms.png]]": A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.
14:28:47 <esolangs> [[A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170348&oldid=170345 * JIT * (-9)
14:35:49 <esolangs> [[A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170349&oldid=170348 * JIT * (+1)
15:33:57 <esolangs> [[Uniode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170350&oldid=170332 * PkmnQ * (+1) This one seems to be intentional
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17:43:40 <esolangs> [[User:RikoMamaBala]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170351 * RikoMamaBala * (+2079) Created page with "I do all sorts of programming stuff, from Scratch, to Python, to even a custom-made machine code that can actually be interpreted(no, really)! ==My interests in Scratch== I do all fancy stuff in Scratch. From: when green flag clicked forever move
17:45:08 <esolangs> [[Article written in Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170352 * RikoMamaBala * (+20242) Created page with "-[------->+<]>.-[->++++<]>.+[->+++<]>+.+++++++++++.[--->+<]>-----.[->+++<]>+.+++++++++++..[++>---<]>--.---[->++++<]>-.----.+++.++.-.+[---->+<]>+++.+++++[->+++<]>.---------.[--->+<]>--.[-->+++++++<]>.++.---.--------.+++++++++++.+++[->+++<]>++.+
17:55:35 <int-e> FWIW: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a771903d/
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17:56:45 <int-e> (So precisely their user page I guess?)
17:57:40 <int-e> Anyway. Feels like spam to me, and definitely shouldn't be in the main namespace.
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18:04:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Article written in Brainfuck]]": not an esolang (and articles here should be written in English)
18:07:59 <ais523> hmm, having explicit topicality rules is becoming more and more urgent, maybe I should work on those today but I have so many other things to do
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18:22:48 <Yayimhere> ais523, would you want to be told when my interview is finished? since you seemed interested when I told you about it
18:23:07 <ais523> Yayimhere: so I have my email client set up to automatically tell me if anything is posted on esoteric.codes
18:23:21 <ais523> but, since I set that up, nothing actually was posted, so I don't know whether it works or not
18:24:17 <ais523> it's worth telling the channel, though, I think – I might not be the only person who's interested
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18:25:25 <Yayimhere> i was wondering if it would be a little annoying or similair
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18:27:41 <ais523> there's certainly a limit to how much you can advertise yourself on an IRC channel, but for this channel I think the limit is fairly high
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19:11:53 <esolangs> [[Regex]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170353 * Hammy * (+32) Redirected page to [[Regular expression]]
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19:16:40 <int-e> ais523: speaking of which, did you see that I solved impomatic's Core War challenge?
19:16:57 <ais523> int-e: I saw you post a demonstration of the solution, but AFAICT you didn't post the solution iteslf
19:17:04 <int-e> (I have yet to see impomatic *reply* to anything here on channel in 2025)
19:17:07 <int-e> ais523: I did that later
19:17:38 <ais523> I ended up deciding it was likely to impossible with the Redcode commands I could remember, but decided that that was likely just because I couldn't remember the commands that would solve it
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19:19:17 <int-e> I used both > and } addressing modes.
19:20:30 <int-e> < as well, but no fancy instructions; you only need spl and mov and jmp
19:20:33 <ais523> int-e: why doesn't the process at a+5 go to a+6 after clearing a+5?
19:20:48 <int-e> ais523: it does but there are two processes there
19:20:55 <int-e> the second one stays
19:20:58 <ais523> oh, I see, that's what I was missing
19:21:26 <ais523> (my mental model of Redcode had the second one moving)
19:24:08 <ais523> I'm a bit disappointed, this gives a very easy solution for what I thought was the most difficult part
19:24:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170354&oldid=170278 * AnotherUser05 * (+15) /* S */ add SeeLlash
19:25:25 <int-e> (I used djn.a which is a bit fancy, but waiting for 10 steps could be done with a series of jmp-s as well; in fact I did that originally)
19:26:01 <ais523> I was thinking about solutions that never had two threads in the same place
19:26:46 <ais523> there's almost a really elegant way to do it in which you get every thread to simultaneously overwrite a different address with the jump instruction, but it doesn't work because there's nowhere to copy the jump instruction from
19:27:19 <ais523> …and now I'm thinking about the possibility of Redcode warriors that attempt to delete all the dat instructions in memory, making it impossible for them to ever be beaten and forcing a draw
19:27:46 <int-e> ais523: Yeah I had that final step figured out quickly. Also the second-to-last step. But the 2 steps leading up to that took me ages. I also expect that there are other solutions.
19:28:12 <int-e> I don't think having all threads in different places at all times works.
19:28:30 <int-e> I could be wrong, obviously.
19:28:58 <int-e> One of the issues is that you need a `jmp 0` instructions somewhere in memory to copy it for everybody else.
19:29:43 <ais523> or, well, some sort of jmp, you could copy the 0 over an existing jmp instruction I think
19:30:33 <int-e> Anyway. It was finicky.
19:30:36 * ais523 briefly considers SIMD Core War and decides that the SIMD instructions would be far too powerful
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19:31:37 <int-e> APic: I see you're expanding your vocabulary.
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19:32:18 <int-e> No, you said "Good Night" the other day, so that one isn't new.
19:32:45 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
19:35:11 <int-e> ais523: The other thing about this challenge is that at least the way I interpreted it you're pretty much forced to explode process numbers exponentially and finish the final touches in under 8 steps so it finishes within the default 80k cycle limit.
19:36:05 <int-e> (where my "step" notion is process-local, so each step takes 8k cycles at the end)
19:36:09 <ais523> int-e: oh, because the cycle limit counts instruction-threads
19:36:56 <ais523> that would be a natural consequence of the way that scissors strategies work (i.e. forcing the opponent to make lots of threads in order to slow them down)
19:39:58 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170355&oldid=169329 * Ractangle * (-5)
19:40:10 <int-e> What else... The solution I ended up uses a burst of "parallel" writes to populate most of the memory. I also experimented with pre-filling most of the memory with `jmp 0`, but it made the endgame harder for me.
19:40:57 * APic likes to write i in non-Caps and You in Caps 😌
19:42:38 <ais523> I assumed that your "You" was a translation of the German "Sie", which also starts with a capital letter
19:43:18 * APic still likes You better than i or me
19:43:28 <ais523> it actually gives more information this way – English-with-German-capitalisation gives that extra small amount of information because I already know how it would look with English capitalisation rules
19:44:16 <ais523> but my German probably isn't good enough to do it myself, there are a lot of nouns I would fail to capitalise due to not concentrating enough
19:45:01 <APic> You still program much better than i
19:45:22 <ais523> English used to have an equivalent of "du" – "thou" – but it's hardly ever used nowadays, we use "you" (which is the equivalent of "Sie") for everyone, even close friends
19:45:49 <int-e> . o O ( Hey you could translate the subtle distinction between "Du Arschloch", which is endearing, and "Sie Arschloch", which is a proper insult. (This is mostly as a joke; circumstances matter more than words in practice.) )
19:46:08 <APic> Except in NetHack ;=P
19:46:49 <b_jonas> I don't think it quite works the same. capitalizing "You" in english probably means at least some degree of respect, while I can say "Sie" to someone I completely disrespect, the capitalization is there to distinguish it from third person "sie".
19:47:00 <ais523> oddly enough I had to look up "thou"–grammar because priests use "thou" to talk to the player in NetHack, and I was considering changing their messages (they apparently speak a version of English that's *so* old that almost everyone is "thou" rather than "you")
19:47:33 <ais523> b_jonas: in English, I basically only see "You" capitalised in legal documents where it's intended to refer to someone in particular (but the document is written in the second person)
19:47:51 <b_jonas> well that's even more different then
19:47:53 <ais523> like, it means "the specific intended recipient of this document" (as opposed to "whoever is reading this document")
19:48:21 <b_jonas> though I guess it doesn't imply respect then
19:48:33 <int-e> Legal documents also have a tendency to define "You" in the introduction if they do that.
19:49:01 <ais523> there is something of a paradox with respectful language, if you use language that is *too* respectful it is insulting because it's assumed that the respect is sarcastic
19:49:03 <int-e> And the convention is to Capitalize such Defined Terms.
19:49:28 <ais523> int-e: Agora has been struggling with this for decades, we're never quite sure to what extent to capitalise the terms of art
19:49:28 <korvo> "You" is typically a signatory to a contract. "By signing This Contract, You agree to the following Terms & Conditions..."
19:50:05 <b_jonas> there's too many texts written in english that capitalize way too many words. I used to think of that as "Winnie the Pooh style", but these days it's more like "Harry Potter style"
19:50:25 <ais523> e.g. referring to someone as "your majesty" would be very insulting unless it's one of the few people who actually has a high enough rank to require the honorific
19:51:07 <int-e> . o O ( People really make a mockery out of languages. )
19:51:21 <ais523> korvo: I don't think I've ever seen a contract define "This Contract" before, although it wouldn't be totally surprising if one did
19:51:50 <ais523> many nomic rulesets define what the ruleset is, after all
19:51:54 <APic> Good old Lawyers
19:52:04 <APic> Or RechtsanwältXnnen, as i would say gendered ☹
19:52:59 <ais523> English has so many words that we can normally work around the problem by finding non-gendered synonyms
19:53:02 <korvo> ais523: It happens when a contract needs to exclude or categorize certain amendments. In USA history, an example is one of our founding documents: "The Congress ... shall propose Amendments to this Constitution ..."
19:53:21 <ais523> although sometimes it's difficult, there is probably a gender-neutral version of "firewoman"/"fireman" but I don't know what it is offhand
19:53:52 <korvo> Is that actually spoken like /x/ or is it more like a /e/ vowel?
19:53:53 <ais523> korvo: does that mean that it's unconstitutional for congress to *not* propose amendments? they haven't recently
19:54:34 <korvo> ais523: I skipped a clause. In full, "The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments ..."
19:54:43 <ais523> ah, that makes more sense
19:54:53 * APic only thinks of Image-Boards when i read /x/ or /e/ ☹
19:55:41 <korvo> This paragraph's actually very hotly debated. Like, there's an amendment called Equal Rights Amendment, that is technically ratified, but lots of experts say it's not ratified yet. They're heavily motivated; the Amendment gives equal rights to women.
19:55:47 <ais523> /x/ is a kind-of rarely used phoneme in English, it's in at least one loanword that most English people have heard of (last phoneme of "loch") but I don't think it's in native English words
19:56:03 <korvo> APic: Ha! I mean, is it like an "eh" sound, or like a *throat* "k" sound?
19:56:19 <ais523> I'm not sure what phoneme "x" represents in German
19:56:26 <int-e> korvo: I don't think I've ever heard people pronounce that X version. There's a capitalized I version of this gender-neutral plural that *is* pronounceable.
19:56:38 <APic> We rather speak x as Iks instead of Eks
19:57:04 <int-e> ais523: -ks- so pretty much the same as in English.
19:57:51 <korvo> Yeah, a few loanwords have it, but we migrated most /x/ to /k/ a long time ago. The examples we use when teaching Lojban are Scottish "loch", German "Bach", and Spanish "jalapeño".
19:58:47 <ais523> OK, English speakers nearly always pronounce the first phoneme of "jalapeño" as English "h" rather than /x/, I didn't actually know it was supposed to be different
19:59:13 <ais523> it was hard enough for me to learn how to correctly pronounce the ñ
19:59:18 <APic> Gooe old Nessie inside the Loch Ness…
19:59:43 <APic> The Police even thematized it in their Song Synchronicity I or Synchronicity II
19:59:47 * APic does not remember which one
19:59:57 <ais523> (to the ears of an English speaker, ñ sounds like English "ny" / IPA /nj/, but it's actually a different phoneme that's pronounced with different mouth movements)
20:00:22 <korvo> It varies depending on how far south you go. Up north, "Mexico" is pronounced like "meh-hee-koh". Far enough south there are places like Oaxaca, "wah-/x/ah-kah".
20:00:48 <int-e> I think j/y/s/z/w/v/r are the problematic ones when it comes to German vs. English. Plus you have `th`, while we have `ch` which represents two different sounds.
20:01:43 <ais523> in English, "c" can always almost be replaced with "s" or "k" without causing a pronunciation change, but ch/sh/kh are all distinct phonemes
20:02:14 <int-e> Ah, I forgot about sh, though sch is pretty much the same.
20:02:19 <ais523> so the letter isn't entirely redundant, at least with current "spelling defaults"
20:02:28 <korvo> On the West Coast, the -ñ- is basically the same sound as the -y- alteration of Japanese -n-. Like, Internet catperson "nyo" is the same sound ending West Coast "jalapeño".
20:02:50 <int-e> (I say "pretty much" but I couldn't point out any difference)
20:03:11 <ais523> there's also the phoneme at the start of the second syllable of "measure", which is normally spelled "zh" in cases where we want to be unambiguous because it's a voiced version of "sh" and "z" is the voiced version of "s"
20:04:05 <korvo> int-e: I used to have two bosses named Jonas and Jonas. I was constantly messing up which was which. They thought it was hilarious, on par with microwaved popcorn in terms of silly USA Americanisms.
20:04:26 <int-e> ais523: There's always cyrillic too: ж
20:04:54 <int-e> korvo: Were they pronounced differently?
20:05:08 <b_jonas> “a gender-neutral version of ‘firewoman’/‘fireman’” => that's “firefighter”. I think that's actually one of those cases where the neutral word is now more common than “fireman” simply because “firefighter” sounds cooler
20:05:40 <korvo> -s- and -z- are not so bad in USA English but we have to deliberately think about it. -r- is something of a Commonwealth problem; RP means constantly hallucinating rhotic sounds that were never there, e.g. "Myanmar" for the country pronounced "miahn-muh".
20:05:52 <esolangs> [[Dashed arrow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170356 * Hammy * (+22) Redirected page to [[]]
20:05:58 <korvo> int-e: Yeah, one with a y and one with dj
20:05:59 <int-e> b_jonas: Plus, "firefighter" has a phonetically distinct plural.
20:22:30 <ais523> <korvo> -r- is something of a Commonwealth problem; RP means constantly hallucinating rhotic sounds that were never there, e.g. "Myanmar" for the country pronounced "miahn-muh". ← in non-rhotic dialects of English, "r" is usually a vowel
20:22:44 <ais523> there are times where it can be a consonant but they're rarer I think
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20:50:35 <esolangs> [[DotNetOISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170357&oldid=154795 * BoundedBeans * (-117) The truth-machine does delete its files, in the terminator
20:50:51 <int-e> impomatic: Well, one more try: I came up with https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/omnipresence.txt for your Core War challenge.
20:55:50 <impomatic> int-e thanks, I've just downloaded it to go through carefully later (it's bedtime here lol!) Does it create a perfect 8000 JMP 0 instructions, each with one process?
20:56:18 <int-e> you can check the cdb log at the end (and trust the omitted parts)
20:57:39 <impomatic> Fantastic, thanks. It's the first perfect solution I've received. If the processes or sequential, then it's better than my own (which has 8000 JMP 0, each with one process, but in a semi-random order)
20:58:04 <int-e> nah the order is shuffled a bit
20:58:41 <int-e> I don't see how that could be avoided; it's certainly challenging enough as is.
21:03:22 <impomatic> Yes, it took me quite a few attempts! I'm still looking for other solutions - I have a couple of near-miss solutions that I'd like to fix.
21:04:40 * impomatic now catching up on the #esolangs logs... nice to see BOX-256 mentioned.
21:05:19 <int-e> Yeah I cooked up new solutions for your Fractal Hilber Curve level half a year ago.
21:06:09 <int-e> (And a bunch of others; I even somehow woke up keely so https://old.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4dtkwb/official_leaderboard/ is up-to-date)
21:07:16 <int-e> impomatic: specifically for Fractal Hilbert Curve: https://old.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4dtkwb/official_leaderboard/mmof14w/
21:09:59 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170358&oldid=170294 * Int-e * (+656) add version info for opcodes + some polish
21:21:02 <esolangs> [[BlackSpace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170359 * Demetrius55 * (+1617) Created page with "{{Stub}} :''dont confuse with [[blackspace]]'' '''BlackSpace''' is language that uses block characters from Unicode, like ,,. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Accumulator-based]] ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- |<code></code> |Output
21:22:22 <sorear> b_jonas: signatures exist in minicript, sphincs and picnic are explicit constructions
21:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:Demetrius55]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170360&oldid=170251 * Demetrius55 * (-48) /* List of created languages */
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22:08:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170361&oldid=170354 * Buckets * (+10)
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22:08:58 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170362&oldid=170279 * Buckets * (+9)
22:09:07 <esolangs> [[Poy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170363 * Buckets * (+744) Created page with "{{Stub}} Poy Is An Esoteric programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | a || Set the Next Characters until The End of the line To the Variable. |- | b || Print the Variable. |- | c || Set the Variable wit
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22:11:29 <korvo> Does Buckets have any evidence for their languages? I'm suspecting that they are making fresh languages and pretending that they were invented in the past.
22:14:54 <ais523> korvo: I think the year categories are supposed to be "first became public" rather than "first created"
22:15:01 <ais523> although that can also be difficult to prove
22:15:40 <ais523> there are some interesting cases like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Grill_Tag
22:16:10 <ais523> in 2019 I studied the language "a vd vt", I eventually proved a subset of it Turing-complete, Grill Tag is the subset
22:16:21 <ais523> so was Grill Tag created/publicised in 2019 or 2023?
22:16:30 <ais523> (of course, the subset being TC means the full language is also TC)
22:25:50 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, for example an interesting case is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Joy , which was apparently invented around 1996 the latest, and maybe even just barely published for 1970s standards of published, but it was probably almost impossible to find out about it before 2001
22:26:31 <b_jonas> and of course there are pages that describe a language with multiple variants, like how C++ was gradually created from the 1990s to even today, so it's hard to pick one good date.
22:26:48 <ais523> korvo: btw, about that "many of them are spambots" on the main page – I wrote that ages ago (as "most of them are spambots") because we used to have an extremely large number of users created purely to spam and I didn't want to mislead people into thinking that all/most of the accounts were legitimate
22:27:17 <ais523> then I saw just how many legitimate people have been joining recently and realised that they probably outnumbered the spambots by now, so I toned it down
22:27:30 <korvo> ais523: That's totally fair. And I'm not accusing anybody of being a bot; I think these days that most of the spam is going to be reverse-centaur'd.
22:27:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:AnotherUser05]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170364&oldid=124400 * Aadenboy * (+308)
22:27:53 <b_jonas> but yes, it should be date of publication or escape more than date of invention
22:28:17 * korvo . o ( a centaur is just a reverse-centaur doing a handstand )
22:28:38 <ais523> the number of banned users (which is a good estimate for the number of spambots – spambots vastly outnumber people who were banned for other reasons) is by now only a small fraction of the total number of users, so possibly the statistics are "accurate enough" by now
22:29:07 <ais523> that said I think there are a lot of spambots who got past the captcha but couldn't figure out how to get past the "Introduce yourself", and so never got banned
22:30:07 <ais523> (the "Introduce yourself" is purely an anti-spam feature – it might seem trivial to get past in an automated way but apparently doing that doesn't integrate well into common spamming platforms, so after it was created we had a lot of spambots passing the captcha and then failing to successfully spam)
22:30:54 <ais523> and eventually the spammers realised that whatever they were doing to solve the captcha wasn't worth their money if they couldn't spam using it, so they stopped creating accounts too
22:31:49 <ais523> I'm really curious about that, I don't think our captcha is commonly used enough to be worth writing a captcha-break specifically for it
22:32:04 <ais523> so maybe it was being solved by humans
22:32:32 <int-e> well there's the theory that they recruit human solvers, but only up to the point where the account is successfully created
22:32:46 <int-e> ais523: probably your theory, now that I think about it.
22:33:19 <ais523> right, it would totally make sense for a MediaWiki-spamming platform to have a way to refer the captcha to a human captcha-solving service
22:33:47 <ais523> but it would have no reason to involve the humans in the step immediately after that, because it's the same for basically all MediaWiki wikis except ours
22:34:39 <b_jonas> ok wait. https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Befunge&diff=156109&oldid=155581 the supposed Hello world program added here doesn't print the H, right? if so, does this user have a more valuable contribution?
22:34:41 <int-e> who said that security by obscurity doesn't work (knocks on wood etc)
22:35:09 <ais523> int-e: *knocks on SSH port*
22:35:23 <int-e> ais523: Eh they do that all the time.
22:35:35 <ais523> really this is about threat models I think
22:35:41 <int-e> *mostly* trying to log in as root with a password
22:35:48 <ais523> defending against random bots and defending against determined humans are very different problems
22:36:05 <int-e> (actual port knocking tends to use *non*-ssh ports)
22:36:24 <ais523> right, I guess I meant knocking around/before the port
22:36:56 <b_jonas> because some of their other edits that I've seen are new pages for supposed esolangs that look very low quality, but given what's on our wiki that might not be enough of a sign
22:37:26 <ais523> b_jonas: see the next diff on that article
22:37:51 <ais523> this is an extremely plausible typo given that the program was converted to a code block by indenting it one space
22:39:28 <b_jonas> ais523: sorry, that's not the same code block, I'm asking about the one after "Without directly Changing to a Certain direction:". that pushes the letters in reverse using double quote, then pushes a 0, then does *two* conditional direction changes, then start printing letters
22:39:50 <b_jonas> I think the typo is in a program that's not by this user
22:40:20 <ais523> Befunge without <^>v doesn't seem like too interesting a subset to me
22:40:33 <ais523> now I'm wondering about "Befunge, but the only way to change the IP direction is ?"
22:40:53 <int-e> b_jonas: the edit you mentioned adds two programs; the typo fix is in the second one
22:40:56 <ais523> conditionals would be very limited in this (you could still use p)
22:41:03 <b_jonas> that code is by this user, I was wrong
22:41:10 <int-e> b_jonas: so I guess you're asking about the first one
22:41:57 <ais523> in any case, a Befunge hello world can be written in one line without any control flow commands at all
22:42:15 <zzo38> I made up a way to store the ISO 2022 character set designation as a 32-bit number: bit6-bit0 = The low 7-bits of the final byte of the designation. bit7 = Set for C1 or 96-sets, clear for C0 or 94-sets. bit11-bit8 = Last intermediate byte. bit15-bit12 = Secondly last intermediate byte.
22:42:26 <ais523> it's something like 55+"!dlrow, olleH",,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
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22:42:44 <zzo38> bit19-bit16 = Thirdly last intermediate byte. bit23-bit20 = Fourthly last intermediate byte. bit27-bit24 = Fifthly last intermediate byte. bit28-bit23 = Number of intermediate bytes (0 to 5). bit31 = Set for multi-byte characters (unused for C sets).
22:43:09 <ais523> `befunge 55+"!dlrow, olleH",,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
22:43:11 <HackEso> befunge? No such file or directory
22:43:12 <ais523> `! befunge 55+"!dlrow, olleH",,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
22:43:14 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, though trying to align the commas above the string makes some amount of sense, you don't have to count characters
22:43:19 <ais523> `! befunge 55+"!dlrow ,olleH",,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
22:46:55 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Foldy&diff=153903&oldid=151676 adds a hello world program that is just as untested as the Befunge one, it has an arithmetic error that you'd notice if you actually ran the program
22:47:23 <ais523> b_jonas: you might want to leave them a talk page note asking them to test their programs before adding them? (although for many esolangs there's no interpreter, so testing is dificult)
22:47:25 <b_jonas> this one is also for a language that the user didn't create
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22:48:25 <esolangs> [[Foldy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170365&oldid=157423 * Ais523 * (-70) do not hide the User: on links to userspace
22:48:54 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170366&oldid=135331 * Ais523 * (-16) do not hide the User: on links to userspace
22:49:51 <b_jonas> I wonder if this is a translation of a Befunge Hello World
22:50:53 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-piped-link-to-userspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170367&oldid=135649 * Ais523 * (+141) warn people against trying to work around the ban on hiding the User: prefix on links to userpages
22:53:23 <fizzie> `! befunge 55+"!dlrow ,olleH">:#,_@ the traditional oneliner
22:53:29 <esolangs> [[IEBEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170368&oldid=166773 * Ais523 * (-82) do not hide the User: on links to userspace
22:54:11 <ais523> fizzie: right, I was trying to avoid the > though, to match the restriction on the program that was posted
22:56:28 <b_jonas> so in https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Foldy&diff=153903&oldid=151676 the code 111 for the second "o" is generated with the code "92*52**1*", the correct code would be "92+52**1+", the next letter "r" depends on this; the 101 for the first "e" is generated with "99*58*+", that's wrong and I'm not sure what it's an error for, but the next three letters depend on it too so most of the hello is wrong
22:58:10 <b_jonas> maybe it's supposed to be "99*54*+"
22:58:37 <ais523> b_jonas: someone fixed it in the next diff
22:58:42 <ais523> (someone else, that is)
23:01:23 <ais523> huh, Firefox Translate translates "日本語" to "English" – I'm pretty sure that's wrong
23:02:58 <b_jonas> ais523: that's kind of logical. even though the original means "Japanese", it most often occurs as a heading of a description in group of the same text translated to multiple labels, so if you're translating the whole section to english then the section should now be labeled as "English"
23:03:13 <ais523> oh, and I'm pretty sure I know why a naively trained AI would do that translation – there must be tons and tons of pairs of web pages that have 日本語 in the same position of the Japanese-language page as they do "English" in that position of the corresponding English-language page
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23:03:50 <sorear> or if someone says something incomprehensible and you reply "what is that in [language]"
23:05:09 <ais523> (someone submitted a page written in Japanese and it got caught in the edit filter, I'm not quite sure what to do with it)
23:06:39 <ais523> I think it may have been AI-generated but it is *much* harder for me to figure that out for a page that is written in Japanese rather than English
23:07:13 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/examine/log/9251 if anyone is interested
23:14:13 <b_jonas> I think the user I was previously looked at is a cyborg, as in a person writing these articles with a lot of help from older chatbots that make those interesting mistakes in the program
23:14:20 <b_jonas> but maybe I'm just seeing things
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23:21:07 <int-e> ais523: I feel that it's healthier from an admin perspective to stick to English as much as possible for the wiki contents. Which sidesteps the question whether this is a human effort or not.
23:23:42 <b_jonas> int-e: no, the healthy thing would be to allow several languages, anything is fine as long as enough admins can read some of the language so they can moderate away spam and other problems. but with ais as the only active admin, that doesn't really work.
23:25:24 <b_jonas> if only we could convince korvo to help with the moderation
23:26:04 * korvo can be trusted with power tools
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23:40:36 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/issue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170369&oldid=169997 * Aadenboy * (+730) another one
23:46:15 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki talk:Common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170370&oldid=24891 * Aadenboy * (-26) fix dead links
00:29:51 <esolangs> [[Gensym]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170371 * Corbin * (+589) Stub an important concept. I'm writing a blog post and I'd like to have ''something'' to bluelink, as WP doesn't have an article on this!
00:31:49 <esolangs> [[Gensym]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170372&oldid=170371 * Aadenboy * (+13) lowercase
00:56:25 <ais523> hmm, "compiler routine" is a bit ambiguous but I don't know what else to call it
00:56:52 <ais523> it's generally used by metaprogramming facilities to generate symbols at compile time (although it could plausibly be used at runtime in a language that was sufficiently dynamic)
00:57:19 <ais523> I think gensym would be ontopic for WIkipedia but it might be hard to find the required amount of secondary coverage
00:57:32 <ais523> especially as it's likely to be, e.g., side mentions in academic papers
00:59:00 <b_jonas> I gensym in two different levels in Olvashato, I guess you could get confused by that
01:01:59 <b_jonas> The compiler gens prolog symbol names -- these are represented by ruby strings so there's no ruby gensym involved. But then the if you run the resulting prolog program, it can use copy_term to gen more syms at runtime: this happens whenever you call a function value (as opposed to a named function).
01:08:31 <sorear> huh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_variable exists
01:10:12 <ais523> that article would probably be better if it explained the difference between fresh variables and free variables
01:11:30 <ais523> there was an AfD where people thought it might be good to merge into another article but weren't sure which one
01:11:41 <ais523> I suspect the correct location is an article about variable capture, but Wikipedia doesn't have one of those either
01:12:42 <ais523> ah, it's a section, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro#The_hygiene_problem
01:13:07 <ais523> but it's worded in terms of shadowing rather than capturing
01:14:43 <esolangs> [[Gensym]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170373&oldid=170372 * Ais523 * (+84) link to the appropriate Wikipedia section
01:32:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170374&oldid=170361 * Mker-bin * (-10) /* D */
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01:35:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170375&oldid=170243 * Mker-bin * (-159) /* Introductions */
01:41:12 <b_jonas> I'm looking at https://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/#colorrule , it says “… we need to change that color in one family to something else.”. doesn't say “fresh color” or anything like that.
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01:53:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ytebbit * New user account
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02:03:24 <int-e> Well, here's one more refinement: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/omnipresence-exact.txt -- this version spawns exactly CORESIZE-6 threads for the bulk task instead of relying on exceeding the MAXPROCESS limit, which also happens to save two instructions (counting the dat 0 instruction that killed the sacrificial processes previously)
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02:05:48 <int-e> For the most part this was motivated by trying to figure out the variables feature of the pMARS language. There are no binary shift operations, so converting a number to binary is a tad tricky.
02:07:37 <int-e> (The finicky part is unchanged so I still consider this to be the same solution.)
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02:26:29 <korvo> ais523: Nice, thanks.
02:27:18 <ais523> korvo: there are a couple of relevant sections in that article, I posted one on IRC and one on Esolang, so pick whichever one works best for your purpsoes
02:27:19 <korvo> And yeah, it's always been side mentions. OCaml and Scheme papers that have (define (gensym)) without explanation. Little methods in parser libraries. It didn't click for me until this afternoon that CL literally has a (gensym) routine.
02:29:18 <ais523> these little things that are side-mentions everywhere are so hard to document well
02:34:12 <b_jonas> ais523: how about in documents about prolog? I'd expect it's more documented how prolog handles this because prolog generates unbound variables during normal function calls, and also often prints expressions that contain unbound variable, so it has to handle printing those genned syms
02:34:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ytebbit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170376 * Mker-bin * (+132) Introducing Ytebbit
02:34:50 <ais523> b_jonas: the situation in Prolog is complicated because the unbound variables it generates usually don't have names at all
02:34:52 <b_jonas> s/function calls/function entry/
02:35:16 <ais523> the printing algorithms work by trying to check which of the unbound variables in the thing being printed are equal to each other
02:35:57 <ais523> | ?- display(a(F, G, b(G, T))).
02:36:24 <ais523> gensymming can be useful in Prolog but you wouldn't use it for variable names
02:38:24 <ais523> the REPL appears to retain variable names, but that's just because it's trying to match up the names in its output with the names it saw in the input, rather than because the variables have names internally
02:38:53 <b_jonas> I think getting printable names is usually not the main purpose of genning syms even outside of prolog, even if gensym happens to be implemented in a way that it gives printable names, or you get printable names in error messages later
02:39:20 <ais523> | ?- assertz(a(b(C,C))).
02:39:34 <b_jonas> the symbols just need to have identities that can be distinguished from each other and used as keys in a dictionary
02:39:48 <ais523> variable name has been forgotten because it wasn't part of the most recent REPL statement
02:40:00 <b_jonas> (and probably distingiushed from some non-symbol types)
02:42:01 <korvo> I think freshness is slightly different from gensym. In e.g. miniKanren, (fresh (x) g) doesn't say whether x is free in g, just that *if* it were free then it is now bound, and doesn't say whether there's a symbol for the variable.
02:43:03 <korvo> They do both involve bumping a counter, but only gensym actually creates a symbol.
02:46:01 <korvo> I suppose it's a more imperative approach. When a formula is open in one variable then we can naturally talk about binding a fresh variable over that formula without actually naming it. gensym is about generating the token for the name without necessarily having a formula to bind.
02:46:18 <korvo> sorear: Oh, thank you too for the link.
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02:57:10 <esolangs> [[2027]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170377 * Tommyaweosme * (+508) Created page with "2027 is a program with 2027 unique commands, and it only works in the year 2025. However, every year, the documentation is changed so that the current year is the only one that is supported in. == Commands == f_1 - Undefined behaviour, different for every interpreter.
02:57:56 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170378&oldid=170178 * Tommyaweosme * (+13) /* esolangs */ added [[2027]], fixed infamous brainletter typo
03:00:14 <esolangs> [[Brainletter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170379&oldid=134668 * Tommyaweosme * (+26)
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03:22:54 <b_jonas> korvo: I think gensym is for generating a symbol (that isn't equal to any previously existing symbol), but a symbol isn't necessarily used as a variable, in particular even in prolog you could have a "gensym" that generates a new atom rather than a variable
03:27:31 <b_jonas> but maybe this is too general to be considered a gensym
03:28:42 <b_jonas> like in python3, you could just define `class symbol: __slots__ = []`, instances of this are usable as dictionary keys and compare by address by default, so the call `symbol()` creates a fresh symbol that works this way
03:29:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170380&oldid=170375 * Ytebbit * (+124) Introducing myself as Ytebbit
03:29:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170381&oldid=170171 * Ytebbit * (+176) Anonymize user
03:32:18 <b_jonas> though you could also say that only strings are symbols in python3, because onliy strings can be used as attribute names for some reason (probably to make some optimizations easier)
03:35:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170382&oldid=170381 * Ais523 * (+974) /* anonymize user */ this request needs more thought so I'm not just going to do it immediately upon the request, maybe other people have thoughts?
03:53:27 <korvo> b_jonas: Yeah. In idiomatic Python we use `object()` for that; those also compare by address.
03:54:56 <b_jonas> korvo: yes, but object has two extra slots so it's bigger
03:55:21 <b_jonas> object works fine for this
03:55:40 <b_jonas> (though a custom type can help debugging of course)
04:15:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170383&oldid=170382 * Mker-bin * (+307) Response
04:16:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Mker-bin]]": user request to delete their own userpage
04:18:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/renameuser]] renameuser * Ais523 * Ais523 renamed user [[User:Mker-bin]] (9 edits) to [[User:Deleted-6c7c9c36]]: anonymizing user's contributions
04:19:56 <esolangs> [[DTM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170384&oldid=170216 * Ais523 * (-117)
04:20:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 2 revisions on page [[DTM]]: content hidden: hiding personal information in past revisions
04:21:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170385&oldid=170383 * Ais523 * (+205) /* anonymize user */ account anonymized
04:23:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Ytebbit]]": this page should only be created by [[User:Ytebbit]], not by other users
04:36:28 <esolangs> [[DTM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170386&oldid=170384 * Ytebbit * (-3) Changing user
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04:42:29 <esolangs> [[User:Ytebbit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170387 * Ytebbit * (+105) Introducing (again) Ytebbit
05:21:51 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170388&oldid=169945 * L4.m2 * (+104) /* General Ideas */
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09:14:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:2027]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170389 * PkmnQ * (+170) Created page with "I'm guessing others are allowed to update the year if nobody else has already updated it? ~~~~"
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10:31:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:ByteByteIfJump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170390 * Timm * (+8) Created page with "{{stub}}"
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13:11:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bolsen * New user account
13:14:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170391&oldid=170380 * Bolsen * (+120)
13:20:49 <esolangs> [[Stroll]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170392 * Rottytooth * (+1173) Created page with "'''Stroll''' is a programming language whose code is intimately tied to a physical neighborhood, usually (but not necessarily) urban. A Stroll program is written in walking instructions for three actors, called Red, Green, and Blue. While the parts of Red and Green's
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13:34:00 <esolangs> [[Stroll]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170393&oldid=170392 * Rottytooth * (-1)
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14:33:54 <esolangs> [[Stroll]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170394&oldid=170393 * Rottytooth * (+2970)
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14:38:31 <esolangs> [[Stroll]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170396&oldid=170395 * Rottytooth * (+222)
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14:43:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qvixnh22 * New user account
14:45:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170398&oldid=170391 * Qvixnh22 * (+103)
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15:00:45 <esolangs> [[Atle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170400 * Demetrius55 * (+2278) Created page with "'''Atnolt''' is an experimental esoteric programming language designed to be simple but flexible. It supports basic arithmetic, input/output, and control commands. The language uses lines starting with @ to indicate commands. Execution must be started with <code>@execu
15:01:32 <esolangs> [[Atle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170401&oldid=170400 * Demetrius55 * (+8)
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15:42:08 <esolangs> [[Matcha]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170402 * Qvixnh22 * (+2555) Created page with "'''Matcha''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by qvixnh22, yyyy7089, and hibye1217 in 2025. It is based on geometrical approach of uniqueness. ==Code== Every code should be consist of two integers per line. In case other than two integers on a single li
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16:00:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Stroll]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170403 * Ais523 * (+745) underspecified
16:05:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Stroll]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170404&oldid=170403 * Ais523 * (+653) more underspecifications
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18:16:41 <int-e> The way pMARS manages the process queues is... interesting: All warriors share a single ring buffer, but each has a variable length queue, and they're all chasing each other. I *think* this means that there must be a block move somewhere in there for warriors that burn through a lot of threads and let them die.)
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18:17:36 <int-e> impomatic: I ran into two infelicities in pMARS: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/pmars.patch and I refined my "warrior" to hard-code the core size: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/pmars.patch
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18:18:52 <int-e> impomatic: (not a substantially new solution since the final cleanup is identical. but this way it works with core sizes down to 16)
18:21:17 <int-e> impomatic: and "timing": I wrote this https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-12-10.html#lIc seconds before you joined.
18:21:30 <int-e> sorry for the barrage of messages, I think that's all I have for now :-)
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18:57:49 <b_jonas> int-e: ICFP 2004 has a strange turn order. the ants run instructions in the same cyclic order among the ants throughout the game (dead ants don't execute instructions, and an ant that walks skips its next 14 turns before executing its next instruction). the cyclic order of the ants is assigned at the start of the game, sorted by the coordinates of the ants' starting position. this has a weird effect
18:57:55 <b_jonas> that if the two anthills are separated north-south then all ants of one color take their turn together then all ants of the other color take their turn etc, but if the anthills are separated west-east then ants from the two teams are mixed in the turn order.
19:10:38 <impomatic> int-e: just catching up. Thanks for the patch. I'll share it in the pmars-dev group and add it to the latest code.
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19:36:46 <int-e> impomatic: yeah take your time
19:37:09 <int-e> fizzie: funnily enough I handled today's twist better than yesterday's
19:39:25 <int-e> (AoC; I don't have the library collection that would cover dealing with 2D polygons (or unions of rectangles) and winding numbers and all that, and there is just so much room for off-by-one errors.)
19:40:22 <int-e> (While today I just decided to not even try implementing my own solver for the second part.)
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19:46:54 <impomatic> int-e: I've applied the patch to the latest dev snapshot, thanks https://corewar.co.uk/pmars.htm
19:47:59 <int-e> I also saw a bunch of for (count = 1; count < [some bound]; count++) loops in passing which smell an awful lot like off-by-one errors, but I decided not to bother.
19:48:39 <int-e> (I only looked at cdb.c, which isn't the most critical part of the code)
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19:49:58 <impomatic> The link to the new version of Omnipresence was a duplicate of the patch link :-/
19:50:46 <int-e> impomatic: ooh. I think it's Firefox's fault (selecting the URL bar sometimes doesn't update the X11 selection). https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/omnipresence-exact.txt
19:53:03 <int-e> impomatic: I also talked about it a bit on here earlier: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-12-10.html#lH ff.
19:57:55 <fizzie> I haven't even done part 2 yet (only had enough time for part 1 before breakfast), so still not sure whether I'll try to use an off-the-shelf tool for part 2.
19:58:21 <fizzie> This might be where I fail the Burlesque thing this year.
20:01:29 <int-e> impomatic: I'm kind of curious in your solution too.
20:14:38 <int-e> fizzie: TBF I don't know how hard these problems really are; all I've checked is that the naive DP approach will probably fail miserably because the hypercuboids are too voluminous.
20:36:29 <impomatic> int-e: it's very slow! I have a few other almost working solutions which I'm trying to finish.
20:39:24 <int-e> impomatic: Ah. As you may have seen I decided early on that the solution should work with the default cycle count limit, which rules out this incremental launching of processes. But also, the main difficulty is the final few steps that fill all niches with `jmp 0` and trapped processes.
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20:43:08 <int-e> Hmm. I think I need to actually run this...
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22:20:40 <esolangs> [[DTM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170405&oldid=170386 * Ytebbit * (+37) Editing user ownership
22:22:10 <int-e> Did some analysis: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/impomatic-wimp.txt
22:23:35 <int-e> That endgame is tricky. The initial setup is delicate too.
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22:52:12 <esolangs> [[2027]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170406&oldid=170377 * Hotcrystal0 * (+77) dont forget cat program
22:52:17 <esolangs> [[Vertical tab 'N]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170407&oldid=165579 * * (+37) /* AuFI */
22:55:07 <esolangs> [[Vertical tab 'N]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170408&oldid=170407 * * (-87) /* Implementations */
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00:15:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:2027]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170409&oldid=170389 * Tommyaweosme * (+163)
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00:37:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170410&oldid=170374 * Ytebbit * (+10) /* D */
00:39:44 <esolangs> [[DTM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170411&oldid=170405 * Corbin * (-1) Fix infobox.
00:47:14 <esolangs> [[ATSMALL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170412 * FluixMakesEsolangs * (+585) creation of the page
01:17:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nymessence * New user account
01:31:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170413&oldid=170398 * Nymessence * (+160) add intro
01:34:30 <esolangs> [[Nymya]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170414 * Nymessence * (+4895) create page
01:35:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hibye1217 * New user account
01:37:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170415&oldid=170410 * Nymessence * (+12) link nymya page
01:39:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170416&oldid=170413 * Hibye1217 * (+176)
01:40:11 <esolangs> [[Nymya]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170417&oldid=170414 * Nymessence * (+37) add computaional class
01:41:21 <esolangs> [[Nymya]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170418&oldid=170417 * Nymessence * (+16) fix
01:43:46 <esolangs> [[Nymya]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170419&oldid=170418 * Corbin * (-49) Tag as AI-generated. Use WIP template.
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01:45:43 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170420&oldid=169599 * Nymessence * (+12) link nymya
02:17:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170421&oldid=156411 * Aadenboy * (+335) /* AI */ new section
02:26:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170422&oldid=170421 * Ais523 * (+1136) /* AI */ no answers, but some thoughts
02:31:35 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170423&oldid=170420 * Ais523 * (+17) /* T */ +[[Trianguish]]
05:21:01 <ais523> I was so confused, I was simultaneously believing that it was at codepoint 96 and that it couldn't be at codepoint 96 and needed to look it up to resolve the contradiction
05:21:41 <ais523> but I'd forgotten that codepoint 96 was the start of the 0x6xs rather than the end of the 0x5xs
05:22:06 <int-e> one could say that you've made a grave mistake
05:22:41 <int-e> (I like low-hanging fruits. They're sweet, unlike the higher ones.)
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05:41:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170424&oldid=170422 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+111)
05:42:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170425&oldid=170424 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+65) /* Turing completeness */
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05:55:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170426&oldid=170425 * Ais523 * (+1500) /* Turing completeness */ thoughts
06:07:45 <esolangs> [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170427&oldid=152199 * Ais523 * (+98) /* See also */ another language where the commands form a group
06:08:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170428&oldid=170426 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+692) /* Turing completeness */
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06:43:07 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170429&oldid=168405 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+28) /* Semantics */
07:03:42 <ais523> hmm, a weird use of language I spotted in the Haskell documentation – does "levity" really mean "the extent to which something is lifted" or is this just some sort of extreme abuse of English?
07:04:04 <ais523> I guess "liftedness" is longer an doesn't sound as good
07:05:52 <int-e> ais523: I think it's an abuse of English, but consider "levitation". Oh also, "Levity originally was thought to be a physical force exactly like gravity but pulling in the opposite direction, like the helium in a balloon." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/levity
07:06:36 <int-e> So it's re-derived from what Iassume to be latin.
07:08:27 <int-e> Also s/Haskell/GHC/. Though that distinction feels barely relevant these days.
07:09:59 <ais523> well it was on the Haskell website, but yes, was in a GHC-specific section of it
07:41:07 <Yayimhere> hey guys, why does [[Category:Pattern-based|pattern-based esolang]] not work on the wiki? its non visible.(maybe I should ask elsewhere but seems relevant since its our wiki)
07:41:52 <sorear> links to categories are special
07:42:37 <sorear> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Category#Linking_to_category_pages try adding a colon
07:43:14 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170430&oldid=170429 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1)
07:46:50 <ais523> if you want to link to a category rather than add the page to a category, put a : before "Category" (so that the link starts "[[:Category:")
07:47:44 <ais523> this used to work for a few other sorts of links that had special effects when used, too, but I'm not sure whether there are any special link effects other than categories nowadays
07:48:41 <ais523> oh, I think it works in cases where a link would get interpreted as a subpage, e.g. to link to the language /// you sometimes have to write [[:///]] depending on where you're linking from
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07:57:52 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, linking to image files embeds the image, add a colon prefix to override that
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08:05:34 <b_jonas> I've made mistakes with both image and category pages a few times on Mediawiki wikis, where I was trying to link them but forgot to override the magic. Usually I catch this in the preview before submitting, but not always. It's funny because Mediawiki has different syntax for invoking templates, so why isn't that used to categorize pages and embed images instead?
08:07:42 <sorear> because that's the syntax you use to transclude the contents of a category page?
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08:15:02 <b_jonas> sorear: yeah… but that's so rare that that's the one that should have the more complicated syntax
08:15:42 <b_jonas> anyway, Mediawiki is tame in this, I usually dislike it much less than some other formatting languages' magic
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09:21:25 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170431&oldid=169568 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Operations */
09:23:42 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170432&oldid=170431 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Syntax and memory */
09:24:32 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170433&oldid=170432 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Syntax and memory */
09:36:50 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170434&oldid=170433 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+97) /* Syntax and memory */
09:38:13 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170435&oldid=170434 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-67) /* Operations */
09:38:22 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170436&oldid=170435 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-25) /* Syntax and memory */
09:38:35 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170437&oldid=170436 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-10) /* Examples */
09:54:50 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170438&oldid=170437 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+524) /* Examples */
09:55:16 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170439&oldid=170438 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+34) /* Syntax and memory */
09:56:02 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170440&oldid=170439 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-5) /* Syntax and memory */
09:57:50 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170441&oldid=170440 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-13) /* Syntax and memory */
09:58:54 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170442&oldid=170441 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+7) /* Constructs */
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10:41:04 <esolangs> [[Atle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170443&oldid=170401 * Demetrius55 * (+181)
10:42:25 <esolangs> [[User:Demetrius55]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170444&oldid=170360 * Demetrius55 * (+36) /* List of created languages */
10:55:13 <esolangs> [[Atle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170445&oldid=170443 * Demetrius55 * (+112)
11:23:29 <esolangs> [[SGCC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170446 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1643) Created page with "'''SGCC''', named after the State Grid Corporation of China listed on wikipedia as the third largest company by revenue, as of writing, is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]], as a highly simple, graph esolang. SGCC could be considered a [[Computational mod
11:26:36 <esolangs> [[User:Demetrius55]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170447&oldid=170444 * Demetrius55 * (+118)
11:27:02 <esolangs> [[User:Demetrius55]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170448&oldid=170447 * Demetrius55 * (+13) /* My dream profession */
12:06:36 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170449&oldid=170423 * None1 * (+14) /* O */
12:06:50 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170450&oldid=170449 * None1 * (+11) /* O */
12:07:13 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170451&oldid=170450 * None1 * (-11) /* O */ It isn't TC
12:07:39 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170452&oldid=170451 * None1 * (+11) /* L */
12:10:28 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170453&oldid=170452 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-18) /* B */ the "#Numerical version" aint needed
12:17:29 <APic> Slept epically good and long after the Karate-Training yesterday
12:17:39 <APic> I think i finally memorized the Kata Bassai Dai now 😌
12:17:44 <APic> Yayimhere: And You?
12:18:00 <Yayimhere> APic: im fine, though im quite tired
12:18:10 <Yayimhere> had a Christmas party thing yesterday
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12:45:24 <APic> Hope You can sleep moar next Night
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13:12:26 <esolangs> [[SGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170454&oldid=170446 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-40) /* Examples */
13:27:52 <esolangs> [[Thulani machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170455&oldid=136640 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-679) nope
13:35:07 <esolangs> [[SGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170456&oldid=170454 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+34)
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13:49:52 <esolangs> [[Post normal system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170457&oldid=8067 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+9) pretty {{stub}}
13:56:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170458&oldid=166986 * I am islptng * (+295) /* SLet */
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15:26:56 <esolangs> [[Brainhash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170459&oldid=167492 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+12276) Supplemented the implementation of a decoder and an encoder.
15:28:14 <esolangs> [[Brainhash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170460&oldid=170459 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+30) Improved the formatting and inserted a hyperlink to the Cat program article.
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18:33:07 <fizzie> `blsq {"a: y h""y: b c""b: d e""c: d e f""d: g""e: o""f: o""g: o""h: c f i""i: o"} )WDs0{{"y"1}}s1%xP={J{~[}j+]Jg1jfi0>={/vg1jfe[~}{g0j{-]~]xP}FM++Jx/bxj[+g1j[+s1}x/ie}"o"xP
18:33:15 <fizzie> First recursive Burlesque solution of the year.
18:35:05 <fizzie> A "lookup or compute and insert" builtin sure would be handy though, most of that was busywork.
18:56:48 <esolangs> [[SGCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170461&oldid=170456 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+40) /* Semantics */
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19:16:16 <fizzie> Burlesque debugging is also kind of painful. My part 2 works for the example, but for my full data file it just prints "Prelude.tail: empty list", and it's kind of hard to figure out where it goes wrong.
19:18:37 <esolangs> [[Brainhash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170462&oldid=170460 * Esolangist alt * (+153) Esolangist alt
19:25:18 <int-e> that sounds painful (it's not fun with Haskell programs in general and the indirection certainly doesn't help)
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19:32:20 <esolangs> [[Brainhash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170463&oldid=170462 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+53) Amended the lapsus of mentioning the decoder and encoder implementation language as Common Lisp. I apologize for the inconvenience.
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19:34:04 <fizzie> Guessed correctly where it happened, but mostly by luck.
19:54:04 <esolangs> [[Binary Minsky machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170464 * Esolangist alt * (+1354) Esolangist alt
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20:21:43 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170465&oldid=170301 * Placeholding * (-5130) included more example programs, had to remove some coloring
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22:39:44 <Everything> Hi all. What are some good CS or math related podcasts do you know? Audio only. I enjoy MIT OCW, but sound quality is bad :(
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22:43:24 <korvo> Feeling of Computing, formerly Future of Coding, is excellent: https://feelingof.com/
22:44:30 <korvo> Everything: Are you looking for specific domains? I have several podcasts that I think are good, but that fundamentally focus on very specific topics. Type Theory Forall is focused on academic type theorists. The Array Cast is all about array-programming languages in financial applications.
22:45:15 <Everything> korvo: I look for all around esolangs. CS and math and whatever,
22:49:53 <korvo> Everything: Part of the problem is that podcasts don't lend themselves well to lasting for a long time and always being accurate or insightful. Like, anything with fixed hosting often becomes like Sean Carroll's Mindscape (https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/); the host is great but the guests are sometimes talking heads.
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22:57:31 <ais523> I generally follow blogs rather than podcasts – there are a couple of podcasts that I've listened to on occasion but they were on topics very far away from the topics you asked for
22:58:26 <Everything> I read books and blogs too, but I just want to learn English better. I'm not native speaker.
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22:59:47 <ais523> I thought there might be some reason why you wanted podcasts in particular – unfortunately I can't be much help
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23:45:21 <esolangs> [[Brainhash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170466&oldid=170463 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+998) Introduced an examples sections comprehending a truth-machine and a Hello, World! printer as its incipial members, and supplemented two page category tags.
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23:51:44 <esolangs> [[Brainhash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170467&oldid=170466 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2710) Introduced a pseudocode formulation of the decoding algorithm.
00:00:45 <korvo> Redirect from #raku: https://niklas-heer.github.io/speed-comparison/ is quite interesting in terms of the tiers that seem to emerge. We can almost guess what each tier's doing.
00:09:41 <esolangs> [[Kool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170468&oldid=160191 * A() * (+577)
00:10:01 <esolangs> [[Kool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170469&oldid=170468 * A() * (+0)
00:10:55 <esolangs> [[Kool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170470&oldid=170469 * A() * (+1)
00:12:21 <esolangs> [[Kool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170471&oldid=170470 * A() * (+1) /* Xor gate */
00:12:47 <esolangs> [[Kool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170472&oldid=170471 * A() * (+0)
00:27:11 <ais523> korvo: not sure "redirect" is the right word, but I'm struggling to figure out what the right word is – maybe "crosspost"
00:28:25 <ais523> it is curious to see C++ faster than C and Rust which are effectively tied – this makes me think that the program may have an optimisation that's missing in the other languages, and I would be surprised if the optimisation were tied to C++ in particular
00:30:06 <ais523> also Rust nightly being over twice as fast as non-nightly Rust is bizarre, I know Rust nightly doesn't have that big a performance improvement, so it's probably a case of the nightly version using an unstable feature and the non-nightly version not having a good workaround for it
00:30:15 <korvo> ais523: I suppose I should have said "forked from" or "tangent from". It's not a proper redirect, in the sense that the conversation didn't start here. (It's still used that way in USA court too, where it revisits a prior line of discussion.)
00:31:34 <ais523> oh, the "nightly" version is SIMD, that makes a big difference
00:32:38 <int-e> ais523: huh that's weird indeed; https://github.com/niklas-heer/speed-comparison/blob/master/src/leibniz.cpp and -.c look identical.
00:34:08 <int-e> Rust uses (2..rounds).for_each(|i| {...}) and I'm never sure how exactly and how reliably that gets transformed into a loop.
00:34:17 <ais523> the C and C++ must be being compiled with fast-math
00:34:28 <ais523> otherwise they would have the same performance as the Rust version
00:35:10 <ais523> int-e: it's equivalent to «for i in 2..rounds { … }», the version with the for loop would be more idiomaic
00:36:29 <int-e> sure, but it's up to the compiler to actually provide equal performance for those two versions
00:37:13 <int-e> I know that I've seen speedups from replacing range.for_each(|x| ... ) by for x in range { ... }
00:37:37 <ais523> int-e: I'm confused, they should be *literally* equivalent
00:38:10 <int-e> Well, no, because one naively creates a closure and calls it many times and the other doesn't.
00:38:13 <sorear> the big cluster of languages that includes "stable Rust" all have mandatory bounds checking in common, so I wonder if the difference has something to do with range optimizations
00:38:26 <ais523> hmm, apparently not: https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/src/core/iter/traits/iterator.rs.html#818-829
00:38:47 <sorear> (actually looks at code, notices lack of array)
00:38:49 <int-e> so there's a bunch of inlining that *has* to happen before they become the same
00:38:51 <ais523> I was expecting it to just be implemented as "for x in self { (f)(x) }" but the implementation is more complicated than that
00:39:32 <sorear> kind of surprised there are language differences at all, this looks like something you'd write to stress FDIV for uops.info
00:39:35 <int-e> for i in ... also has some unfolding to do because of the iterator interface
00:40:18 <ais523> <int-e> Well, no, because one naively creates a closure and calls it many times and the other doesn't. ← Rust closures don't work like you're expecting them to, they have unique types and Rust monomorphises by default, so the only way to not inline them is to explicitly use code that tells it to not monomorphize (dyn or a cast to function pointer)
00:40:50 <ais523> sorear: the really big difference is that it's adding to a floating-point-typed accumulator and all the additions are done in sequence
00:41:32 <int-e> ais523: For C and C++, the flags appear to be {gcc,g++} leibniz.c -o leibniz -O3 -s -static -flto -march=native -mtune=native -fomit-frame-pointer -fno-signed-zeros -fno-trapping-math -fassociative-math
00:41:50 <ais523> because floating point has rounding errors, any optimisation that changes the order in which the additions occur could potentially change the result, so if you're using a language that tries to match the program's semantics exactly you can't vectorise this
00:42:35 <ais523> int-e: -fassociative-math is the main thing that makes the huge speedup legal, the no-signed-zeros and no-trapping-math are probably needed to make it work on current hardware though
00:42:41 <int-e> and for clang{,++} they add -mtune=native
00:42:58 <ais523> well gcc also has march=native and mtune=native
00:43:10 <ais523> but that isn't so useful without knowing the processor that it's being compiled on
00:43:11 <sorear> anything that N=2 unrolls the loop will remove half the adds and multiplies
00:43:25 <int-e> ais523: ah, sorry, it was obscured by a line break
00:43:52 <int-e> So I *really* don't understand why C and C++ are noticably different. Could be a code alignment thing I suppose.
00:44:39 <int-e> Anyway, these flags and more are in https://github.com/niklas-heer/speed-comparison/blob/master/Earthfile
00:44:55 <ais523> code alignment is so annoying because it has significant effects but it is very hard to tell what they are in order to optimise for them
00:46:16 <int-e> "the big optimization" is vectorization, I presume
00:46:46 <ais523> the "non-nightly" Rust should be very close to max speed for a nonvectorised version
00:46:51 <korvo> As a general hint, it looks like this repo tries to separate SIMD and non-SIMD entries; if a language shows up twice and there's no other plausible difference, it's probably SIMD.
00:47:03 <ais523> unless it isn't being unrolled properly, but LLVM likes to unroll by 2 or 4
00:48:04 <ais523> the version number of Perl is stated as just "5" which seems unlikely to me, Perl 5.0 was obsolete decades ago
00:48:20 <ais523> it's probably forgotten to specify the minor version
00:50:07 <ais523> I'm vaguely wondering how INTERCAL would do, but given that it would be a soft-float implementation, it would likely be considerably slower than everything else on the chart
00:50:49 <sorear> no faith in your idiom recognizer?
00:51:36 <ais523> sorear: it's a pretty good idiom recognizer but it only optimises within an expression
00:51:53 <ais523> and even integer additions in INTERCAL are almost always done with loops
00:52:25 <sorear> even llvm does loop idioms these days
00:52:28 <ais523> the idiomatic way to do float calculations in INTERCAL would be to link in flonck, which definitely can't do the operations in a single expression
00:52:39 <ais523> C-INTERCAL doesn't optimise across statements
00:53:04 <ais523> you would need a lot of special cases for things like abstain and forget and come from…
00:54:17 <korvo> ais523: The Raku folks would appreciate it if you added a new slowest language. I was thinking of adding a Monte version to see how bad it is.
00:54:39 <ais523> I haven't significantly worked on C-INTERCAL for a while, but one of the things I wanted to add (and made some progress towards) was a constraint solver
00:54:58 <korvo> There are also languages which could be very funny to add, like awk.
00:55:06 <int-e> ais523: it feeds the output of `perl -v` into this: https://github.com/niklas-heer/speed-comparison/blob/master/scmeta/src/scmeta.cr#L32-L49
00:55:29 <ais523> so that when assigning to an expression, it would ensure that any variable that was used multiple times in the expression would be given the same value for each use
00:55:35 <ais523> (the fact that it doesn't currently do that is arguably a bug)
00:56:00 <int-e> so it finds `5` before `40` and `1` and `5.40.1`.
00:56:08 <ais523> with the constraint solver, implementing addition as a single calculate statement is probably not too difficult
00:56:35 <sorear> this seems much worse than the old shootout
00:57:05 <sorear> that at least had benchmarks testing PL features like recursion, not just "how fast is your CPU's divider and how YOLO is your fast-math impl"
00:58:15 <sorear> Actual Perl 5 needs to account for the fact that perl <= 5.005 version numbers are floats, not strings
00:58:27 <int-e> `` perl -v | head -n 2
00:58:30 <HackEso> \ This is perl 5, version 28, subversion 1 (v5.28.1) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi
00:58:39 <ais523> right, I was trying to find a simple command that reports the Perl version number in an easily parseable way
00:59:07 <ais523> but before perl 5.6 the only programmatic access is the version number as an encoded float
00:59:35 <int-e> Somehow I doubt they'd care about supporting old Perls :-P
00:59:44 <ais523> my current Perl's $] is 5.040001 which is very hard to read if you don't know the encoding rules
01:00:11 <ais523> that's a clean way to do it on more recent Perls
01:01:22 <ais523> (although a slightly weird one, the result of $^V is a magical type that looks different based on how you use it, like $! does)
01:02:03 <int-e> lol "Add Perl version. Closes #3." (wrong kind of version; this is a variant of the leibniz program :P)
01:02:30 <ais523> `` perl -E '$!=20; say $!'
01:02:50 <sorear> arguably $^V is more of a magical type than $!
01:03:06 <sorear> $! just uses variable features to set both the string and numeric value
01:03:12 <ais523> with $! it's more that the variable itself is magical, than that the type is
01:03:24 <sorear> whereas $^V is a version object that can be assigned to other variables
01:03:48 <ais523> I have fond memories of stealing the magic from @_ in order to do something or other, but I can't remember what I was doing or why
01:04:11 <ais523> I don't think it was intended as a practical thing to do, it was part of a puzzle or codegolf or something like that
01:04:44 <sorear> most of the interesting magic variable tricks are easier to do from the C API than golfed perl itself
01:06:05 <ais523> oddly enough I've been doing something similar in Rust, stealing the magic from Display/Debug in order to call functions that need a formatter argument
01:06:29 <ais523> (I think there have been discussions about adding a non-hacky way to create a Formatter in order to be able to do that legitimately)
01:07:05 <sorear> the format-args macros are magic but I didn't think the traits were?
01:07:25 <int-e> that's the point though isn't it...
01:07:34 <ais523> the traits aren't, but they're the only things that the formatting functions are willing to speak to
01:07:45 <ais523> so you need to go via the trait to steal the magic from the macro
01:12:44 <int-e> https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/fmt/index.html#format_args covers the other half of this
01:15:09 <ais523> I'm quite familiar with format_args! weirdness because format_args! and pin! are the two stable macros that do something that logically could be expressed with normal Rust code except that they have weird lifetime/scoping effects that can't be replicatd
01:15:50 <ais523> and the details of those specific weird effects keep breaking and causing bug reports
01:16:55 <ais523> ("super let" is a good search term if you're interested – it's an old proposed name for the technique but I don't think there's a new one yet, so everyone uses the old name)
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01:57:07 <b_jonas> ais523: IIUC format_args! does two or three separate magical things. (1) takes the non-first arguments by reference without an explicit `&` sign, (2) vararg, so if you wanted a non-macro version you'd be passing a variable-length tuple of references instead of variable number of arguments, and (3) during compile time, it parses the format string argument and typechecks the other arguments according to
01:57:13 <b_jonas> them, this may or may not be magic in that maybe current rust can do it in constexpr time, but I don't think it can yet.
01:57:43 <ais523> b_jonas: oddly it isn't format_args! magic that I wanted, but that of write!
01:57:59 <ais523> which is able to make a Formatter, something you can't otherwise do in stable Rust without using a write!-like macro
01:58:02 <b_jonas> you can certainly do (3) in runtime, but it's useful to do it in compile time for earlier detection of mistakes
01:58:33 <ais523> format_args! being a macro is fine (although (1) annoys me, it seems like the inconsistency is not worth any perceived benefit)
01:59:19 <b_jonas> I don't like format_args, but that's not because of any of these magic
02:00:30 <ais523> what are the drawbacks of C++-style print chaining?
02:00:50 <b_jonas> (1) and (2) can easily be replicated by a macro that adds the ampersands, and you can just pub both the underlying function and the convenience macro. (3) is hard but can probably be implemented by a compiler plugin macro.
02:00:51 <ais523> cout << "abc" << x << "def";, that sort of thing
02:09:43 <b_jonas> ais523: printf("(%5.2f,%5.2f)", x[0], x[1]); versus cout << fixed << setprecision(2) << "(" << setw(5) << x[0] << "," << setw(5) << x[1] << ")"; // the later hasn't even restored the format flags and precision for later
02:10:39 <ais523> b_jonas: right, I think you'd use newtypes rather than filehandle state in order to make this sort of thing less ufly
02:11:15 <ais523> cout << "(" << fixed(5,2,x[0]) << "," << fixed(5,2,x[1]) << ")";
02:15:11 <b_jonas> this kind of formatted debugging output is just so common in my code that printf-like format patterns are very useful for it. it's fine to expose a different interface too, but I want printf-like format specifications. and proper floating-point formats, which is currently missing from the rust standard library. and being able to output byte strings unchanged without them necessarily being utf-8 strings.
02:15:17 <b_jonas> and another function that formats into utf-16 output directly, but I admit this one may be a stretch.
02:21:24 <ais523> I guess from my point of view, printf is varargs but it's inherently just running separately on each argument and concatenating, so the varargs isn't actually required
02:21:57 <b_jonas> for floating-point, I want all three of %a, %e, %g formats both such that I can specify the precision (it's fine if there's an upper bound on how many digits I can requests) and such that sufficient number of digits are written that parsing the output gives the original number, and %f format with the given number of digits after the decimal point.
02:22:00 <ais523> so it's basically about how much sugar you ant to put around it
02:23:21 <b_jonas> and I insist on C printf-like format strings because I'm not going to type "{:.2f}" instead of "%.2f" all the time, and I definitely won't put up with rust format's stupidity where "{}" means %f instead of %g
02:24:20 <b_jonas> and you should expose a functional interface for when you don't want to use the printf-like patterns, like you asked for
02:24:22 <ais523> nowadays Rust lets you do "{x:.2f},{y:.2f}" and it uses the values of the vairables x and y
02:24:31 <ais523> this is horrifying to me but might make more sense from your point of view
02:25:19 <ais523> oh! the best syntax would probably be something like println!(x[0]:.2 "," y[0]:.2)
02:25:26 <b_jonas> I kind of don't like the embedded expressions, but I admit that part might just be bias because I'm used to the separate arguments
02:25:49 <ais523> putting the embedded expressions outside the string
02:26:12 <ais523> this is basically what Perl print (as opposed to printf) does
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02:48:57 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170473&oldid=170453 * Xysdd * (-19) not original
02:51:33 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170474&oldid=170473 * Xysdd * (-19) unoriginal and WIP
04:21:28 <korvo> Well, I think I've made a wrong turn at Alberquerque, so to speak; I'm looking up how to find and kill grandchildren and ISTR that this is an indication that everything has gone wrong.
04:22:33 <korvo> I'm thinking about how to implement ejectors for Vixen. The key thing I need to do is detect when I'm in a nested execve(), find a matching process further up the call stack, and kill all intermediate processes.
04:25:27 <korvo> I guess that I want a way to cancel a process tree. But I don't want to have to set up a supervisor tree any time that I need an ejector.
04:27:54 <korvo> Oh, I can just use a process group. The nested execve() will kill itself, but I can arrange for it to do its work first.
04:28:42 <ais523> do process groups nest correctly?
04:31:00 <ais523> looks like they don't (but depending on what you're doing, they might not need to)
04:34:35 <korvo> I want to write Vixen like `Ejector escape: [:ej|...]` where the body of the nested block returns a value. This means running a process that takes `ej` as its argv[2] and collecting its stdout. The value of the nested block is the value of the whole expression, *except*...
04:35:28 <korvo> ...if the body ever runs `ej eject: "some human-readable label"` then the entirety of the block is canceled and evaluates to whatever was ejected. Even if it's deeply nested.
04:37:56 <ais523> I wonder if continuation passing style would be a good solution here – especially as that's basically how execline works
04:38:31 <ais523> also I'm confused because execve ends the process that calls it, so there wouldn't be matching process higher up
04:39:01 <ais523> but you need to think about what happens if you have two nested ejectors, users would expect to be able to eject to either the inner or the outer one
04:40:27 <korvo> Smalltalk blocks are basically continuations. But they're multi-use undelimited continuations; they can do anything and don't have to return. E-style ejectors are single-use delimited continuations. The extra discipline lets them implement break/return/continue without having to trust that the called method is correctly going to exit when it's done.
04:41:04 <korvo> Yes! Process groups won't work because the outer ejector needs to also kill the inner ejector somehow.
04:41:34 <korvo> Hm. setsid() isn't actually privileged, so I could just start a new session instead. But those can't nest either.
04:42:05 <korvo> ...Oh no. You know what does nest on Linux? cgroups.
04:43:04 <ais523> one thing that I'm curious about is how esoteric a project Vixen is meant to be
04:43:37 <ais523> are you creating a language that works like this purely because it's expected to be fun/interesting, or do you have a practical use for it? (this is #esoteric, both answers are acceptable)
04:44:13 <ais523> and setsid() can't be privileged, otherwise you'd need root permissions to open a terminal emulator
04:44:42 <korvo> I am cleaning up my homelab. The Smalltix convention is helping me organize various scripts by augmenting directories with behavior. I have a SymlinkFarm object, for example; it gives a directory of symlinks the ability to index and mutate itself.
04:45:23 <sorear> I know you're old enough to remember /dev/ptyXX
04:45:49 <ais523> sorear: there have always been workarounds for pty creation
04:45:51 <korvo> The name is chosen so that, in the unlikely event that I adapt s6 and fork SixOS, I can justify calling the Linux distro "Vixen" as well, with Xenia as the mascot. But we all know that I love running my mouth about planned projects that go nowhere.
04:46:01 <ais523> but you need to be able to setsid to link the terminal emulator to the pty
04:46:26 <korvo> I had thought that getty, sshd, etc. were started with extra permissions somehow, TBH. TIL.
04:46:31 <ais523> I can't remember what people did before getsid
04:46:46 <ais523> korvo: xterm needs to setsid too
04:47:10 <ais523> otherwise, foregrounding a process in one xterm would background all the processes in other xterms you were running
04:47:43 <korvo> ais523: I thought that *that* was given by some sort of X11 magic credential. I've learned to not underestimate how much authority is smuggled through X11 login.
04:48:52 <korvo> I had thought that tmux, screen, abduco, etc. have a special magic page of assembly which does some evil stuff to manage terminal access. I *did* since learn, a few years ago, that it can be done in portable C.
04:49:46 <korvo> Past Corbin sure didn't know much about Linux. Honestly, must have been nice for Past Corbin. Ignorance is bliss.
04:50:01 <ais523> I think the hard part of all this is that there are a lot of things that go on with this sort of thing, with various levels of magic
04:50:15 <ais523> sometimes the problem is a mess of daemons and weird libraries and rarely used permissions
04:50:25 <ais523> and sometimes there's just a system call that does exactly what you need
04:51:08 <korvo> Yeah. Like, one of my side questions that I haven't settled is how exactly to call openat2(). I might just have a Rust binary that does it.
04:51:11 <ais523> (there is some crazy magic here: if you call setsid() and then open a terminal, the session gets linked to the terminal)
04:51:42 <ais523> open has an option to *not* be magic, but you have to turn it on intentionally, it does the magic by default
04:52:52 <ais523> actually this really troubles me, this is (while convenient) pretty much nonsenical from an API perspective
04:54:17 <ais523> it's probably a historical accident where someone wanted to write a terminal emulator and ended up writing it partly in userspace and partly in the kernel because that's what was most convenient, and now POSIX has a bizarre magic libc call for backwards compatibility with other terminal emulators that did the same thing in order to make use of the available APIs
05:03:40 <korvo> https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/450242 Found an answer with cgroups in mind. Quoting the attached PR, "This allows to conveniently kill the entire process tree below the forked program, a common problem when scripting tasks that need to reliably fully terminate without leaving reparented subprocesses behind."
05:04:13 <korvo> ais523, sorear: Thanks for the rubber-ducking. I'd apologize for all the stupid questions, but at least this one had a smart answer.
05:04:33 <korvo> And the air fryer just finished the baked potatoes! Truly this is a great evening.
05:04:55 <ais523> korvo: right, it might be a weird context in which the problem arose, but that doesn't mean that the problem itself isn't sensible
05:05:44 <korvo> ais523: It's very analogous to being able to unwind a stack. In general, that's a weird thing to want. But if implementing exception handling, or continuations, then it's actually essential.
05:06:30 <ais523> right – I noticed the analogy, just wasn't quite sure what it meant for Vixen
05:06:50 <korvo> "very analogous"? What a phrase. So tired. I'm demonstrating that I can do all my New Year's resolutions in one day, including an hour of yardwork this morning and 2.5hrs of running Zelda 3 in public.
05:07:50 <korvo> TBH I don't actually know what Vixen should be. I'm going to take Jakubovic's analogy as far as I can; how much of E-style secure-distributed computing can we do with directories and processes? Do I *need* vats? Are auditors possible or good?
05:16:24 <esolangs> [[Caten]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170475 * Timm * (+345) Created page with "use [[Cq+]] this is engine use "caten" has [sprite].set pos [x] [y] rot [rot] if [var] > [value] to [code] else [code2] if [var] < [value] to [code] else [code2] if [var] = [value] and [var] = [value] to [code] else [code2] /# and so on #/ [sprite].change pos [x]
05:16:27 <esolangs> [[Cq+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170476 * Timm * (+407) Created page with "{{stub}} Cq+ or cqut is esolang for engine [[Caten]] use "[name of class group or plugin]" class [class] [class name].[var name] = [value] ... name [function] to [code] /# or #/ name [function] to { [code] } end sub [int2] from [int] add [int] and [int]
05:20:40 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170477&oldid=170318 * Timm * (+94)
05:25:56 <esolangs> [[Kool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170478&oldid=170472 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+9) this is also a stub.
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06:05:25 <esolangs> [[Bitdeque]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170479&oldid=75993 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-293) /* Computational class */ I actually tried doing the proof, and it didnt work. Im deleting the category.
06:23:58 <esolangs> [[Bitdeque]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170480&oldid=170479 * Ais523 * (+1406) TCness proof it might be possible to directly do a Minsky machine with this, but the proof via cyclic tag is very simple and direct so I decided to use that instead
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09:42:44 <esolangs> [[Cq+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170481&oldid=170476 * JIT * (+24)
09:47:03 <esolangs> [[IMAGERY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170482&oldid=169822 * JIT * (+9)
09:55:44 <esolangs> [[B9]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170483&oldid=167949 * JIT * (+66)
09:57:09 <esolangs> [[B9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170484&oldid=170483 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+9) not very detailed, or in other words, {{stub}}
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10:39:31 <APic> Just breakfasting Vegetable Juice
10:39:34 <APic> Yayimhere: And You?
10:40:04 <Yayimhere> ive been writing some semi formal string rewriting systems
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11:50:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170485&oldid=170458 * None1 * (+309) /* SLet */
12:08:59 <esolangs> [[Navrytl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170486 * PrySigneToFry * (+10839) Created page with "Navrytl is designed by PSTF. It is Brainfuck equivalent in Timeline 284436. In that universe, it is designed by Maiquel Quehuacetzel, is also a big fan of Aztec culture. His real name is Mike Quitrys. = Overview = Navrytl(in fact it should be nahuitl but Mike m
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14:00:03 <esolangs> [[Syntaxing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170487 * Timm * (+406) Created page with "{{stub}} digit => "0"|"1"|"2"|"3"|"4"|"5"|"6"|"7"|"8"|"9" number => (""|"-")&[digit] lcl => "a"| #oops :3 add info number2 => {"-"}&[digit] def *name* *args* -> command macros *name* *args* -> return valid "print" *text* valid number [[brainfuck]] syntax valid "
14:00:40 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170488&oldid=170477 * Timm * (+17)
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14:29:26 <esolangs> [[IMAGERY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170489&oldid=170482 * * (+27)
14:29:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Candidates for deletion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170490&oldid=168377 * * (+14)
14:30:19 <esolangs> [[User:/esolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170491&oldid=169959 * * (-13)
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15:03:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:IMAGERY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170492 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+182) Created page with "This language is impossible. How would you make an interpreter? --~~~~"
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15:06:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Waffelz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170493&oldid=169596 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+205) /* Tea */
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15:32:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Stkptr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170494&oldid=162160 * Nguyendinhtung2014 * (+212)
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16:53:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Stkptr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170495&oldid=170494 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+273) /* Coincidence? */
17:05:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Candidates for deletion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170496&oldid=170490 * Corbin * (+913) Organizing and proposing policy.
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17:06:00 <korvo> ^^ I am going to start proposing deletion policy. Please discuss any concerns you might have, as this is the sort of thing that we don't want to get horribly wrong.
17:10:34 <korvo> Crucially, given the wiki's size and the number of deletions that occur, I'm not proposing the same sort of consensus-seeking approach used on English WP. We can do that on a case-by-case basis if people want, but right now it seems like the main issue is one of *enumerating* what has already been agreed to be deleted.
17:27:36 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170497&oldid=170474 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-49) /* U */ Unary isnt special enough(its one of the most trivial ideas of how to make a variant of a language).
17:37:22 <esolangs> [[User:Deltayelta/Dredge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170498&oldid=169858 * Deltayelta * (+1396) wow I just wrote a bunch
17:37:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MEMORY * New user account
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18:04:07 <esolangs> [[The code is a maze]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170499 * Hammy2 * (+1111) Created page with "'''The code is a maze''' is a [[Zame]]-inspired esolang by [[User:Hammy]] ==Execution== The program is a maze made out of characters that can be anything. The first part of execution is the solving. The "solver" will start solving the maze at the top-left co
18:21:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:IMAGERY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170500&oldid=170492 * Hammy2 * (+181)
18:23:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170501&oldid=170046 * Hammy2 * (+65) /* Signature length */
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18:33:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170502&oldid=170501 * Aadenboy * (+452) /* Signature length */
18:39:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hammy/signature]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170503 * Aadenboy * (+385) Created page with "just letting you know, all of your messages signed using this template say they were posted at the same time ~~~~"
18:39:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hammy/signature]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170504&oldid=170503 * Aadenboy * (+13)
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21:28:49 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170505&oldid=170415 * Buckets * (+10)
21:29:27 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170506&oldid=170362 * Buckets * (+9)
21:29:40 <esolangs> [[Pab]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170507 * Buckets * (+1490) Created page with "Pab Is an esoteric Programming Language created by [[User:Buckets]] In 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | Any readable ASCII character. || Set the value To That ASCII Character. |- | Any unreadable ASCII character. || End the Program. |- | || Pr
21:30:48 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170508&oldid=158541 * Buckets * (+4001)
21:35:54 <esolangs> [[Pab]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170509&oldid=170507 * Buckets * (-10)
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22:13:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Waffelz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170510&oldid=170493 * Waffelz * (+140)
22:29:47 <int-e> AAARGH why did I spend so much time on today's AoC.
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22:38:59 <esolangs> [[Vixen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170511&oldid=170008 * Corbin * (+2304) /* Core */ A possible way to do ejectors. I don't know if it's possible to avoid the TOCTTOU without directly doing some syscalls.
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22:47:29 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170512&oldid=169634 * NTMDev * (+826) /* Sort */
22:48:42 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170513&oldid=170512 * NTMDev * (+187) /* Zip */
22:49:31 <esolangs> [[Mov]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170514&oldid=162185 * Somefan * (+64) Lowercase and formatting
22:51:31 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170515&oldid=170513 * NTMDev * (+178) /* Zip */
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23:03:36 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170516&oldid=170515 * NTMDev * (+135)
23:05:36 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170517&oldid=170516 * NTMDev * (+330) /* Shuffle */
23:09:52 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170518&oldid=170517 * NTMDev * (+550) /* Shuffle */
23:12:14 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170519&oldid=170518 * NTMDev * (+116) /* Sample */
23:13:38 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170520&oldid=170519 * NTMDev * (+124) /* Flatten */
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23:27:24 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170521&oldid=170520 * NTMDev * (+31) /* Flatten */
23:33:26 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170522&oldid=170521 * NTMDev * (+616) /* Flatten */
23:34:27 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170523&oldid=170522 * NTMDev * (+105) /* Flatten */
23:58:28 <esolangs> [[Human-81]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170524 * A() * (+788) Created page with "Human-81 is an Esolang made by [[User:A()]] for humans. It was designed to be simple to read, but also with less commands than other languages. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Cmd !! Header text |- | Start, (Name), with (inputs). || function |- | End
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00:20:26 <korvo> ais523: I figured out how to incant `unshare` and now I have working ejectors in Vixen. It turned out that less is more; the man page for `unshare` tried to convince me that I need to set up all the different namespaces like users and cgroups and mounts, but I just needed processes.
00:24:29 <esolangs> [[Human-81]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170525&oldid=170524 * A() * (+534)
00:26:08 <esolangs> [[Human-81]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170526&oldid=170525 * A() * (+0)
00:30:21 <int-e> korvo: Hmm. But a new file system namespace is nice to have so that you can mount your own /proc.
00:30:44 <int-e> And you need new-almost-everything if you want to set up a new namespace as an ordinary user.
00:32:32 <korvo> int-e: Seductive, isn't it? But what I actually need is to remount /sys/fs/cgroup with a fresh cgroup namespace so that I can access /sys/fs/cgroup/cgroup.kill. And the man page suggests that a user namespace is required for doing this as an ordinary user. So that's four namespaces (PID, mount, cgroup, user) already! And each of them has to be correctly configured.
00:34:12 <korvo> It ended up being simpler to just save the PID, risk the TOCTTOU which appears to be inherent to using `unshare` since it doesn't allow actions between fork() and unshare(), and $(kill $PID) when appropriate.
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00:50:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170527&oldid=169814 * RainbowDash * (+781) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */ new section
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00:57:32 <ais523> korvo: setting up a new user namespace sometimes lets you do the other sorts of unshare without root permissions, but yes, apart from that, process namespace is all you likely nee
01:01:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170528&oldid=170527 * Ais523 * (+683) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */ agree with the category, would like more input on the name (this would be a big break from tradition but may nonetheless be correct)
01:01:46 <ais523> OK, this is the best category proposal I've seen in ages
01:15:02 <int-e> Is this somehow distinct from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-line_program ?
01:15:42 <ais523> int-e: that's a sort of program rather than a sort of language
01:16:09 <ais523> so it'd be "language in which all programs are straight-line, except possibly for an implicit loop around the program"
01:16:32 <int-e> Right; I was more interested in the straight-line part
01:16:50 <ais523> notably, straight-line programs can't be TC unless one of the individual instructions is TC, but branchless languages like cyclic tag can be
01:18:09 <int-e> okay, you pointed out a difference :)
01:26:49 <esolangs> [[Mutt Machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170529 * RainbowDash * (+1822) Created page with "'''Mutt machine''' is a computational model invented by [[User:RainbowDash]] in [[:Category:2025|2025]]. == Overview == Mutt machine works on a tape of symbols. Symbols are viewed on the right of tape and appended to the left. Any amount of symbols can be rea
01:30:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170530&oldid=170528 * RainbowDash * (+367) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */
01:31:32 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170531&oldid=169637 * RainbowDash * (+59) Mutt machine
01:50:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170532&oldid=170530 * Ais523 * (+272) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */ an alternative potential name
01:56:55 <esolangs> [[Mutt Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170533&oldid=170529 * RainbowDash * (+2370)
01:58:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170534&oldid=170532 * RainbowDash * (+290) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */
02:11:13 <esolangs> [[Mutt Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170535&oldid=170533 * RainbowDash * (+55)
02:14:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cmontella * New user account
02:22:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170536&oldid=170534 * RainbowDash * (+207) Not responding to ais just saying.
02:22:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170537&oldid=170536 * Aadenboy * (+471) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */ proposal; it was mentioned above as well
02:31:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170538&oldid=170416 * Cmontella * (+151)
02:44:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170539&oldid=170537 * RainbowDash * (+150) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */
02:58:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170540&oldid=170539 * Corbin * (+330) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */ SWAR's a paradigm, right? Branchless is very similar.
03:09:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170541&oldid=169706 * PrySigneToFry * (+280)
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04:42:26 <esolangs> [[Purrtran]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170542 * Cmontella * (+4215) Joke esoteric programming language featuring an AI cat coding assistant.
04:45:13 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170543&oldid=165995 * Cmontella * (+83)
04:48:40 <esolangs> [[Purrtran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170544&oldid=170542 * Cmontella * (+1) /* PURRTRAN */
04:52:39 <esolangs> [[Purrtran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170545&oldid=170544 * Aadenboy * (-14) remove h1 header
04:53:32 <esolangs> [[Purrtran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170546&oldid=170545 * Cmontella * (-4180) Redirected page to [[PURRTRAN]]
04:53:39 <esolangs> [[PURRTRAN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170547 * Cmontella * (+4216) Created page with "= PURRTRAN = '''PURRTRAN''' is a joke esoteric programming language themed around programming with an AI cat assistant. Although nominally described as a modernized FORTRAN dialect, PURRTRAN has no formal syntax or semantics; instead, its defining feature is an "Art
04:54:17 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170548&oldid=170312 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+11) /* esolangs */
04:54:45 <esolangs> [[PURRTRAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170549&oldid=170547 * Aadenboy * (-14) remove h1 header (again)
04:56:36 <b_jonas> I feel like this branchless thing could be hard to determine for some languages. A tight loop that's running on a GPU heavily parallelized is clearly branchless, whereas something like ABC that has long forwards only jumps clearly isn't branchless, but what if the language has a way to skip any instruction or short sequence of instructions based on flags and since it's an esolang where we don't care
04:56:42 <b_jonas> about performance you can't tell if it runs in constant time regardless the conditions like a GPU does or not taken branches actually save time like in ABC?
04:57:44 <ais523> right, the gray area is predicated instructions
04:58:00 <ais523> which can be interpreted either as branching or as non-branching
04:58:24 <b_jonas> yes, it could even differ between implementations
04:58:34 <ais523> cyclic tag is predicated in a sense
04:59:07 <ais523> because the productions get pushed conditionally
05:00:30 <esolangs> [[CCCC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170550&oldid=169871 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-3) /* Semantics */
05:00:45 <ais523> I guess the extreme is languages like "BPF wrapped in a loop", which is very branchy but seems to have a number of properties of branchless languages
05:01:34 <ais523> all this discussion is making me think that branchlessness purely is a paradigm (as opposed to something like reversibility) because it's more a matter of style than of capabilities
05:02:09 <ais523> you can imagine the "case/switch/match statement in a loop" style of programming and that's both equivalent to a state machine, and somewhat reminiscent of branchless programming
05:02:16 <ais523> b_jonas: Berkeley Packet Filter
05:02:27 <ais523> widely used intentionally sub-TC language
05:02:44 <ais523> originally used for firewalls but ended up being used for other things too
05:03:03 <b_jonas> yeah, for running untrusted code in kernel space
05:03:08 <ais523> it's a lot like a typical asm except that jumps can only go forwards
05:03:28 <ais523> (which is what makes it sub-TC)
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05:08:21 <ais523> b_jonas: thinking about it a bit more, at least in esolangs, the thing that makes esoprogramming feel like it's branchless is that you have to somehow encode the data you're operating on in such a way that predication works
05:09:08 <ais523> if your language has a "skip the next instruction if X" then it feels more like a match-in-a-loop style of programming
05:09:36 <ais523> if your language is based around unconditional data operations but you can arrange the data to make them work as no-ops, that's what seems to define the esobranchless style
05:10:09 <ais523> (this is assuming that you have reasonable power to determine X)
05:11:12 <ais523> OK, here's another edge case – is The Waterfall Model branchless?
05:11:45 <ais523> it doesn't have an instruction pointer in the traditional sense
05:13:13 <ais523> (this is even more interesting if you compare to Delta Relay, which is almost identical except that "which counter is 0" acts like an instruction pointer, and that instruction pointer moves around in a branchy sort of way)
05:14:51 <b_jonas> ais523: but wouldn't that criterium say that GPU inner loops are not branchless?
05:16:55 <ais523> b_jonas: I think there are multiple boundaries
05:17:03 <ais523> and the esolang boundary is in a different place from the practical programming boundary
05:35:41 <sorear> half-remember someone doing that with the C preprocessor, maybe more relevant to esoteric programming
05:38:58 <b_jonas> sorear: do you mean IOCCC 1992/buzzard.1 ?
06:04:47 <esolangs> [[Hexad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170551&oldid=169570 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* Commands */
06:31:32 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170552&oldid=170497 * PkmnQ * (+549) Add a bunch of esolangs (I may be a bit lenient, feel free to remove what doesn't belong)
06:44:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170553 * I am islptng * (+218) Created page with ":Today is Dec 13 again, looking back, this is a s**t esolang() ~~~~"
06:45:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:CCCC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170554 * I am islptng * (+125) Created page with "I have a CA rule called CCCC. ~~~~"
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07:36:48 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170555&oldid=139799 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-134) the specification is supposed to be incomplete.
07:40:16 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170556&oldid=170555 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-43)
07:42:42 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170557&oldid=170556 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+195)
07:42:56 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170558&oldid=170557 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-2)
07:44:30 <esolangs> [[Undefined behavior (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170559&oldid=170558 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+147)
07:52:26 <esolangs> [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170560&oldid=168651 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0)
08:14:35 <esolangs> [[Abcout]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170561&oldid=169120 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+127) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/169120|169120]] by [[Special:Contributions/Sporeball|Sporeball]] ([[User talk:Sporeball|talk]])
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09:45:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hammy/signature]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170562&oldid=170504 * Esolangist alt * (+422) Esolangist alt
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10:45:55 <esolangs> [[Abcout]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170563&oldid=170561 * PkmnQ * (-127) Technically not limited to a finite amount of memory as currently specified
10:48:48 <esolangs> [[Abcout]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170564&oldid=170563 * PkmnQ * (+253) /* Computational class */ This might be clearer
12:49:44 <esolangs> [[User:RikoMamaBala]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170565&oldid=170351 * RikoMamaBala * (-155)
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13:39:16 <esolangs> [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170566&oldid=79201 * Somefan * (+0) fix implementation links
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13:44:07 <esolangs> [[FlogScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170567&oldid=139917 * Somefan * (+95) external fix
13:45:32 <esolangs> [[Techno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170568&oldid=75529 * Somefan * (+30) snapshot for external link
13:49:51 <esolangs> [[Autopsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170569&oldid=118827 * Somefan * (+30) snapshot for external link
13:54:19 <esolangs> [[Autopsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170570&oldid=170569 * Somefan * (-30) nevermind, http
13:55:03 <esolangs> [[Techno]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170571&oldid=170568 * Somefan * (-30) nevermind, http
13:59:28 <esolangs> [[Matcha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170572&oldid=170402 * Hibye1217 * (+4117) Rewrote the document to fit the tea theme. Also definitely did not hid any hidden message.
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14:05:07 <esolangs> [[Matcha]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170573&oldid=170572 * Hibye1217 * (+29) Fixed minor formatting mistakes
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14:54:10 <esolangs> [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170574&oldid=170560 * None1 * (+0) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/170560|170560]] by [[Special:Contributions/JHSHernandez-ZBH|JHSHernandez-ZBH]] ([[User talk:JHSHernandez-ZBH|talk]]) Some commands use 4 bits
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15:49:45 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck basic edition]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170575 * GolferHome * (+1808) Created page with "= Brainfuck basic edition = '''Brainfuck basic edition''' (also known as '''BBE''') is an [[Category:Brainfuck_derivatives|brainfuck derivative]] which removes some instructions while still being [[Turing-completeness|Turing-complete.]] It removes <c
16:07:41 <esolangs> [[Gemini/Example Programs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170576 * PrySigneToFry * (+711) Created page with "{{Back|Gemini}} This contains a series of Gemini example programs. = Hello, World! = <pre> func main(argC: Int64, argV: list) do var a: Doc = "Hello, World!"; println a; end </pre> = Deadfish = <pre> func main(argC: Int64, argV: list) do
16:08:32 <esolangs> [[Matcha]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170577&oldid=170573 * Hibye1217 * (+361) Compiler and Truth Machine
16:09:28 <esolangs> [[Gemini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170578&oldid=170137 * PrySigneToFry * (+37)
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16:59:11 <esolangs> [[A0A0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170579&oldid=170566 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+6) /* Language overview */ clear up A a lil'
17:32:56 <esolangs> [[A Combinator Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170580&oldid=170129 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+19) /* Combinators/lambda expressions */
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17:52:31 <esolangs> [[Lacc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170581 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1542) Created page with "'''Lacc''', originally inspired by a chat with [[User:Waffelz]], is a stack based language, and as such imperative language, with only one way of doing control flow: a version of the call/cc operator, normally only used in functional programming languages. == C
18:02:17 <esolangs> [[Lacc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170582&oldid=170581 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+36)
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19:35:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170583&oldid=168984 * Hammy * (+390)
19:45:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hammy/signature]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170584&oldid=170562 * Aadenboy * (+712)
19:52:23 <esolangs> [[User:Niko Strauch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170585&oldid=120751 * Niko Strauch * (-4)
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20:01:33 <esolangs> [[Translated Batch/Hammy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170586 * Hammy * (+4504) Created page with "[[Translated Batch/Mihai Popa|Less crazy]] Step 1: Take this piece of sh*t code. <pre> @echo off cls Amasampula e-REM Creative 8-bit ADPCM Let me tell you about Jim Leonard. It does not stop the flow of water from flowing into the air. i want to be a membe
20:02:47 <esolangs> [[Translated Batch/Mihai Popa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170587&oldid=127933 * Hammy * (+55) /* See also */
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20:27:15 <esolangs> [[Useredited]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170588 * Hammy * (+24) Redirected page to [[UserEdited]]
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21:05:36 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170589&oldid=167594 * Hammy * (+498)
21:30:55 <esolangs> [[Brain-accumulator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170590&oldid=170209 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2) Ameliorated a lapsus in the elision of the Common Lisp programming language as the interpreter's foundation.
21:49:40 <zzo38> I had symlinked /dev/urandom into a directory accessible to DOS programs in order that I can make better quality random numbers in programs that are written in BASIC; I don't know how many other people would do stuff like that (I expect most people would want to use more modern programs instead, but I think DOS works well).
22:09:15 <zzo38> (This works; I have tried it because I was not sure if it would work, and it does work.)
22:53:28 <APic> Good Night. Happy 03 Advent to You all!
23:19:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170591&oldid=170505 * Buckets * (+26)
23:20:29 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170592&oldid=170506 * Buckets * (+12)
23:21:07 <esolangs> [[MIRROR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170593&oldid=147415 * Buckets * (+33)
23:21:14 <esolangs> [[Mirror]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170594 * Buckets * (+3607) Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|MIRROR}} Mirror Is an Esoteric Programming language Created By [[User:Buckets]] In 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | q || Creates an IP with 11. |- | || Set the to 0. |- | 0 || Set The To 0. |- | F || Skip next comm
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00:45:57 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170595&oldid=170552 * Ais523 * (-4) redefine "original" a bit to prevent an obscure language + a number of trivial derivatives of it all being posted together (AFAICT, nobody is doing this maliciously, but it has occasionally happened by accident)
00:46:38 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170596&oldid=170595 * Ais523 * (+1) clarify my previous edit slightly if a language and its derivatives are both on the list we should keep the original
00:57:10 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170597&oldid=170596 * Ais523 * (-128) remove: Ambient Techno, Flooding Waterfall Model (derivatives of older languages on the list); efghij, High Rise, StackFlow (no implementation or external resource); Vague (not sufficiently well specified to confidently consider it Turing-complete)
01:04:38 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170598&oldid=170597 * Ais523 * (+61) tone down the "derivatives" restriction slightly (and restore part of it that got deleted by mistake) this allows re-adding Flooding Waterfall Model and means that some of the existing derivatives can be kept; also reword the intro to be less boldface-instructi
01:56:51 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170599&oldid=170488 * Timm * (+4)
02:42:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:DTM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170600 * Ytebbit * (+466) /* Request to delete user and page */
02:44:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Candidates for deletion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170601&oldid=170496 * Corbin * (+34) /* Articles for deletion */
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05:53:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170602&oldid=170540 * RainbowDash * (+354) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */
05:56:05 <esolangs> [[Lacc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170603&oldid=170582 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+3) /* Command set */
05:58:09 <esolangs> [[Mutt Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170604&oldid=170535 * RainbowDash * (+13) Console
06:03:46 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170605&oldid=170589 * PrySigneToFry * (+1198)
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08:14:58 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170606&oldid=170605 * None1 * (+153) /* Commands */
08:16:02 <esolangs> [[UserEdited]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170607&oldid=170606 * None1 * (+1) /* Commands */
08:18:32 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170608&oldid=164359 * None1 * (+1) /* Type 78 */
08:21:16 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170609&oldid=170608 * None1 * (+41) /* Interpreters */
08:21:40 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170610&oldid=170609 * None1 * (+0) /* Type 78 */
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11:53:37 <esolangs> [[User:JHSHernandez-ZBH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170611&oldid=154637 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-70)
11:56:30 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170612&oldid=170268 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-4) a grammar correction, and two content shortenings (also why is this not protected)
12:08:44 <esolangs> [[Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170613&oldid=169078 * C++DSUCKER * (+284)
12:13:44 <esolangs> [[!INTERNET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170614&oldid=162588 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-41) /* Operators */
12:13:59 <esolangs> [[!INTERNET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170615&oldid=170614 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+4) /* Operators */
12:15:06 <esolangs> [[!INTERNET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170616&oldid=170615 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+22)
12:15:23 <esolangs> [[!INTERNET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170617&oldid=170616 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+0) /* Operators */
12:25:42 <esolangs> [[Verbose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170618&oldid=75157 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+399) i will make the remaining paragraphs verbose later
12:26:45 <esolangs> [[Verbose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170619&oldid=170618 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+73)
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12:27:09 <esolangs> [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170620&oldid=162236 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+4)
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15:45:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170621&oldid=170591 * Susam * (+18) /* C */ add
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16:15:55 <esolangs> [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170622&oldid=170620 * Ais523 * (-4) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/170620|170620]] by [[Special:Contributions/JHSHernandez-ZBH|JHSHernandez-ZBH]] ([[User talk:JHSHernandez-ZBH|talk]]) it is an abbreviation according to the manual
16:53:48 <esolangs> [[Langton's ant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170623&oldid=168768 * Corbin * (+1946) References and theorems.
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17:14:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170624&oldid=170602 * RainbowDash * (+96) whatever i dont want to date this correctly i forgot to add this
17:14:55 <esolangs> [[Langton's ant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170625&oldid=170623 * Corbin * (+188) Many conventions for the non-technical parts. This is an FA candidate, right?
17:31:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170626&oldid=170624 * Ais523 * (+1410) /* Category:Branchless paradigm */ discussion about paradigmness and predication
17:32:49 <ais523> the term "local cellular automaton" seems vaguely wrong to me
17:33:00 <ais523> in that in a 1D setting that would just be "Turing machine"
17:33:16 <ais523> you could just as easily describe Langton's Ant as a 2-dimensional Turing machine, but I don't think that's common terminology
17:34:42 <ais523> also the computational class section of that article is a mess
17:35:07 <ais523> it cites the same paper four times and has results in "upper bounds" and "lower bounds" sections which are all actually lower bounds
17:35:08 <korvo> ais523: I'm very open to better terminology. The interesting part is the contrast with globally-applied rules like in Life.
17:35:25 <ais523> korvo: the interesting part to me is that this seems to be a terminology gap
17:35:42 <ais523> it has exactly the same relationship to 2D cellular automata as Turing machines do to 1D cellular automata
17:35:54 <b_jonas> ais523: they didn't exist back when Turing-machines were invented, but we now have VCRs which use a 2-dimensional magnetic tape, so we can probably still call the two-dimensional ones Turing-machines. Now three-dimensional would be harder, at least if it has more than the two layers of a double-layer DVD.
17:35:56 <korvo> Hey, it was a productive paper. I can treat them all as lower bounds, but I'm also a Church-Turing believer.
17:36:21 <b_jonas> nah, I guess even a floppy disk has a two-dimensional magnetic tape
17:36:42 <ais523> well, regardless of whether you believe in Church-Turing or not, it should be fairly obvious that Langton's Ant isn't uncomputable unless you cheat with the initial conditions
17:36:50 <ais523> if the initial conditions are computable, so is the language as a whole
17:38:15 <ais523> b_jonas: VCR tape is really interesting because it's storing a one-dimensional sequence of data, but in order to fit a long sequence onto a relatively short tape, it uses a short but wide tape and effectively writes the data in a space-filling curve (with discontinuities but that doesn't change the essential nature of it)
17:38:52 <ais523> and this makes it non-obvious whether it counts as 1-dimensional or 2-dimensional
17:39:01 <korvo> That's a good point. GMG don't require that the initial lattice is computable.
17:39:36 <ais523> almost anything is uncomputable if you allow uncomputable initial conditions
17:39:59 <b_jonas> ais523: kind of, but I think there's some magic in there that I don't quite understand where it might synchronize the wraparound with the vertical sync of the video signal. I don't understand how that can work because there's only one VCR format and it can store both PAL and NTSC television.
17:40:34 <b_jonas> ok, admittedly there's more than one VCR formats, I think there's something like double speed, but that's not about PAL versus NTSC
17:40:37 <ais523> b_jonas: if you fast-forward a VCR that might help you understand better
17:40:57 <ais523> the basic idea is that there's a discontinuity whenever the recorded track reaches the edge of the tape
17:41:10 <ais523> the recorded track is shaped like ////// but with much steeper slashes
17:41:32 <ais523> the 50Hz versus 60Hz just changes the angle of the slashes, which can be done by changing how fast the tape head moves
17:42:11 <ais523> and if you time it correctly the discontinuity always happens during vblank, a time at which the screen is ignoring every signal sent to it
17:42:51 <ais523> but, if you're fast-forwarding, you get the first half of one frame and second half of the next (or more if running at ×3 or ×4 speed) and you can see the discontinuity on screen when you do that, lots of garbage/random data at the point of the discontinuity
17:43:27 <b_jonas> oh, so they try to save a tiny bit of tape area by not including most of the vblank interval on the usable part of the tape?
17:43:47 <ais523> right, the vblank happens while the tape head is off the edge of the tape
17:43:55 <ais523> which both saves area and covers the discontinuity
17:45:33 <b_jonas> but isn't that kind of synchronization a bad idea because it complicates the VCR a lot and makes it less forward compatible with new extensions to the television format such as teletext or that british text caption thingy?
17:46:08 <ais523> it doesn't complicate the VCR because it needs to synchronise with vblank *anyway*, if it didn't the picture would gradually move up or down the screen
17:46:19 <ais523> (something which frequently happens in practice on misconfigured old TVs)
17:47:00 <ais523> if you wanted to capture vblank metadata like teletext, you could include that poriton of vblank in the portion that's saved to the tape – I don't know how many VCRs actually bother with that in practice
17:47:09 <b_jonas> what, why? can't it just save the raw signal as is, and that raw signal contains the information that the television uses to vertically synchronize?
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17:47:18 <ais523> it is hard to tell nowadays because VCRs are mostly obsolete and analog teletext signals aren't sent any more
17:48:29 <b_jonas> “analog teletext signals” hehe… I mean they're uncompressed digital teletext signals for uncompressed analog televison, so that makes sense, we don't even have any analog television broadcasts anymore, probably to save on EM frequency space
17:48:37 <ais523> b_jonas: I think maybe if you just want playback to work? but normally people want pause/fast forward/rewind to work too
17:49:18 <ais523> pause is done by repeating the same frame over and over again, but that requires one slash on the tape to contain exactly one frame, not a fraction or multiple of one
17:50:08 <b_jonas> I see! image while paused or fast forwarded.
17:51:01 <b_jonas> though I can imagine another reason, which is that the vblanks use extreme values of the signal and that value can't be recorded onto the tape to save on the *value* space
17:52:23 <b_jonas> which I just saw was a problem when dwangoac was trying to digitize old videotapes with a cheap software-defined radio card with only 8 bits depths of value and that apparently destroyed the vsync on the digitization side
17:53:54 <b_jonas> (it's possible that I misunderstood that and the problem with vsync was something else
17:54:57 <b_jonas> I guess this makes sense because by the time they made VCRs, televisions could synchronize to vblank well enough, that was a commonplace mass-produced technology that they could reuse
17:56:59 <esolangs> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170627&oldid=167405 * Esolangist alt * (+662) Esolangist alt
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18:00:32 <RainbowDash> hello, i am here to talk about branchlessness
18:00:49 <RainbowDash> it seems easier to chat on the IRC rather than on the wiki page
18:01:27 <RainbowDash> now AI said that there is not a good definition of branchless. but i think predicated instructions are a very good way to explain it.
18:02:01 <RainbowDash> maybe if it could be like "A branchless programming language is a programming language that does not use statements to control program flow but rather predicated instructions or operations that mimic predicated instructions."
18:02:19 <RainbowDash> i meant The branchless paradigm is a paradigm that*
18:06:01 <ais523> so the gray area happens when you start predicating entire sections of instructions
18:06:47 <RainbowDash> i mean you do need some way to predicate stuff, just because you can predicate entire sections of instructions doesn't make it any less branchless. the predicated instructions will still run just not do anything
18:06:56 <ais523> imagine a program that goes «while(true) { A if x == 1; B if x == 1; C if X == 1; D if X == 2; E if X == 2; F if X == 2; G if X == 3; … }»
18:07:23 <ais523> (assume case-insensitive because I accidentally switched case halfway through writing it, I'm tired)
18:07:41 <ais523> from one point of view, this is branchless because it is a loop full of predicated instructions
18:08:00 <ais523> but from another point of view, this is a perfectly normal state machine where x is the instruction pointer, and is potentially very branchy
18:08:26 <ais523> because it's just another syntax for a switch/case/match in a loop
18:08:49 <RainbowDash> i think branchless should follow some sort of math, like how 10+5 is 15. in cyclic tag something being 0 and 1 is it's form of math. but thats hard to define objectvily.
18:09:07 <ais523> there are some esolagns where actual programming in practice falls into that gray area, e.g. The Waterfall Model and Delta Relay
18:09:54 <RainbowDash> i mean can we agree that windmill, cyclic tag, i/d machine, and blindfolded arthmetic are branchless?
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18:10:26 <RainbowDash> if the branchless paradigm does get added should it applied to only turing complete languages
18:10:36 <ais523> what's interesting about those languages is that all obvious implementations are branchless or effectively so
18:11:07 <ais523> and the gray area is formed of languages like Delta Relay which have both obvious branchless and obvious branchy implementations
18:11:28 <ais523> because their semantics are less suggestive of an implementation strategy than, say, Blindfolded Arithmetic's are
18:11:38 <RainbowDash> i think something should be counted as a branch if the logic of an instruction would not be ran in the hardware
18:12:03 <ais523> but that's a property of the implementation, not the langauge
18:12:35 <ais523> so languages are only clearly branchless if they strongly suggest a branchless implementation strategy
18:13:23 <RainbowDash> i mean the way you simulate branches in windmill is very close to what you said earlier. but the math still runs to check all the booleans and run everything
18:13:29 <RainbowDash> the while(true) { A if x == 1; B if x == 1; C if X == 1; D if X == 2; E if X == 2; F if X == 2; G if X == 3; … }
18:13:48 <ais523> incidentally, the I/D machine seems to be "more branchless" than something like cyclic tag, because there are two obvious implementations and one of them is branchless in the instruction decoding in addition to at runtime
18:14:39 <RainbowDash> variable = ((condition==1)*(value_if_true))+((condition!=1)*(value_if_false))
18:14:40 <RainbowDash> this is how an if statement is made in windmill which is equal to
18:14:40 <RainbowDash> variable = condition ? value_if_true : value_if_false;
18:14:41 <ais523> fwiw, I don't think this ambiguity is a reason to not create the category, but it is a reason to think about exactly how we want to define it
18:15:24 <RainbowDash> i mean abusing branchless to create branches is exactly what you are supposed to is it not?
18:15:27 <ais523> one sign of branchlessness is that it "naturally" goes SWAR, but that is only helpful in languages that actually have wide data types
18:15:53 <ais523> right, this is why it's a paradigm, "what you're supposed to do" is the nature of those
18:16:19 <RainbowDash> is it fine if i go into a more of a theortical aspect of this? i dont know if it will help the dissucsion but me and xylo agreed on it
18:16:30 <ais523> something like ELEMENTARY is branchless but the instructions effectively create loops
18:16:45 <ais523> RainbowDash: the theoretical aspects should be discussed somewhere, they're interesting
18:17:05 <ais523> I think there should probably be a wiki article called something like "branchless programming" that discusses the programming style and theoretical considerations / difficulties in defining it
18:17:06 <RainbowDash> me and xylo agreed that nondetirmistic turing machines are branchless because they choose EVERY branch possible
18:17:20 <RainbowDash> and they only end up picking one, which is what a branchless programming language basically does but with logic instead
18:17:34 <RainbowDash> i made https://esolangs.org/wiki/Branchless_Algorithms
18:17:40 <ais523> I think I'd also agree with that, although I think disagreeing is reasonable
18:17:52 <ais523> (re: angelic nondeterminism)
18:18:22 <int-e> this also overlaps with reversible computing
18:18:43 <RainbowDash> it overlaps with alot of stuff but i think it is most useful as a tag where something is obviously branchless
18:18:49 <ais523> int-e: are you thinking about bit buckets as the analogy for predication?
18:18:53 <int-e> (which can have branches but it's hard to enforce statically that you can undo merged control flows)
18:19:22 <RainbowDash> i don't know what angelic nondeterminism is, well atleast in terms of the arguement against that
18:19:36 <ais523> well, implementing nonreversible languages in reversible languages is normally done using a control-merge function/idiom
18:19:44 <korvo> ais523: Sorry for dropping the conversation; I got distracted by finding some fascist's code on my system. I will change [[Langton's ant]] as discussed.
18:19:51 <ais523> RainbowDash: "angelic" = the program picks whatever course of action helps it terminate correctly
18:20:11 <ais523> wihch is how nondeterministic Turing machiens are normally defined
18:20:24 <RainbowDash> well nondeterminstic turing machines are too i guess
18:20:28 <ais523> it doesn't necessarily require hypercomputation, you can just run all the possibilities in parallel until you find the one that works
18:20:47 <RainbowDash> give me a second to find what i said to xylo
18:20:55 <ais523> I like to use the full "angelic nondeterminism" phrase nowadays because if you just say "nondeterminism" many people assume you mean randomness
18:21:36 <RainbowDash> See here, A and B can be an infinite variations of numbers, but there are certain paths to printing 55. this is what i mean by "picking a single path" the two paths are 55 and 0
18:22:10 <RainbowDash> A==B is the decider of what to do out of an infinite amount of paths. if that makes sense
18:23:22 <RainbowDash> it would be technically simulating all paths but the logic shows where to go. it might make sense if you programmed branchlessly more becuase that is how i think of it sometimes when i am programming.
18:24:23 <ais523> I think there are languages where you can literally write programs like that
18:24:39 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it's possible in Prolog but I can't remember the syntax for the Boolean comparison
18:25:17 <RainbowDash> "write programs like that" like what? is what i mean to ask.
18:26:14 <RainbowDash> also are rewriting languages branchless like thue and lambada caculus?
18:26:48 <RainbowDash> one can argue that they are not because they follow paths that can branch into other paths and certain instructions won't ever be ran
18:27:14 <RainbowDash> but one can argue against that saying that the same thing happens in cyclic tag when a zero is read.
18:27:30 <korvo> RainbowDash: One issue with your logic is how CPUs work today. So, expanding on the hint from int-e, in a GPU or DSP, we "mask off" the predicated instructions when the predicate fails. This means that we still do the calculation, but we ignore the result. It's cheaper to do this because it's applied to lots of data all at once. This is what SIMD means by "multiple data".
18:27:34 <ais523> your example of a nondeterministic program
18:27:57 <ais523> OK, seems that Prolog doesn't actually have an arithmetic operation that compares two numbers and returns a boolean
18:28:24 <korvo> This is also kind of how ALUs work. The ALU computes every operation at once, but the operations which aren't used are masked off by the decoder for the ALU. Exactly how much computation is wasted is implementation-specific, but the idea is that we don't have to literally rewire the ALU for each new instruction.
18:28:46 <RainbowDash> yes branchless programming does alot of ignoring instructions being ran, that is how they achieve what they do
18:28:58 <korvo> Well, I guess I'm saying: when is digital logic *not* branchless?
18:29:50 <ais523> korvo: so circuits normally have both data inputs and control inputs, but sometimes which is which is a matter of perspective – and being branchless is about having the control inputs follow a predictable pattern
18:29:58 <ais523> (i.e. one that isn't data-dependent)
18:30:05 <korvo> Solid-state mechanisms really mess with our idea of the machine *being* in a *state* since we are definitionally trying to keep them in exactly *one solid state* at all times.
18:30:13 <ais523> but because it's subjective which inputs the control inputs are, that also makes it subjective whether the hardware is branchless
18:30:30 <RainbowDash> i mean i guess you can program branchlessly without having to ignore instructions. for example you can use purely mathamatic functions to achieve results.
18:30:53 <ais523> korvo: that's not the usual definition of solid-state, at least
18:31:07 <b_jonas> if you wanted to run blindfolded arithmetic programs in practice then you'll make an interpreter that tries to decompile them, at least to the point where it can skip sequences of conditional instructions when the condition is false. this especially helps when the program is a state machine where most of the loop does nothing in each iteration. and once you do that, blindfolded arithmetic won't be
18:31:13 <b_jonas> branchless, it's not running in a fixed amount of time per loop. (of course fixed amount of time is only if you're running on hardware with a very long but fixed word size, like the originally intended machines that multiply a hundred decimal digits.)
18:31:37 <ais523> it was originally used to distinguish circuits that are entirely made of solids (like copper and silicon) from those that contain vacuum tubes (and thus are partly based on gases)
18:31:45 <korvo> RainbowDash: For sure! I don't want to ignore how you're thinking. I'm poking at the edges because one important question for a paradigm is whether it's something we use *inside* a language as a pattern, or something *outside* which defines the language by controlling what we're allowed to express. Like, object-oriented vs object-based.
18:32:17 <RainbowDash> yeah it's just very hard to define something but i think this proccess is needed as there has not been any good defintions previously made before this discussion
18:32:19 <ais523> korvo: and "object-oriented" has caused a lot of trouble over the years
18:32:55 <ais523> partly because there's room for disagreement about how broadly or narrowly to define it, and partly because if you define it narrowly there is more than one plausible narrow definition
18:32:57 <korvo> ais523: TIL! In music it's anything that's based on digital logic as opposed to analog logic. And I think further back, to fluidics and mechanical linkages, which also moved.
18:33:30 <RainbowDash> are angelic turing machines branchless can we agree or disagree?
18:34:15 <ais523> RainbowDash: I agree with you that they're branchless, *but* branchless is a property of the implementation and the angelic Turing machines are branchless only if you have an angelic implementation to run them on
18:34:30 <korvo> I think "branch" is ill-defined.
18:34:31 <ais523> I'm happy to imagine that I have one of those, even though it isn't obviously physically possible
18:34:55 <ais523> but I don't expect everyone to agree
18:35:06 <b_jonas> "when is digital logic *not* branchless" => when the part that takes or does not take branches doesn't fit into the same nice digital model, like it powers down an entire region in the processor (or even an entire chip) to save power.
18:35:35 <RainbowDash> maybe something like "The branchless paradigm removes the use of statements controlling program flow, forcing the programmer to come up with solutions that mimic branches or completely computes differently without ignoring instructions making every instruction useful." i mean it can be written better but do you get what im getting at
18:35:49 <ais523> so one example I've been thinking about: imagine an adder but there's an AND in the carry circuit, which you can use to suppress the carries
18:35:56 <ais523> and if you do that it becomes an XOR instead
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18:36:12 <korvo> b_jonas: Hm. Because it's continuous?
18:36:22 <ais523> (note: this probably isn't a sensible way to build an ALU in practice, but in theory there's nothing ruling it out)
18:36:24 <RainbowDash> when we look back at while(true) { A if x == 1; B if x == 1; C if X == 1; D if X == 2; E if X == 2; F if X == 2; G if X == 3; … }
18:36:25 <RainbowDash> we can see this is branchless, but it doesn't seem branchless, we know this is branchless because we can subsiute these expressions with mathmatical logic and be branchless.
18:36:45 <korvo> RainbowDash: Out of curiosity, have you heard of constant-time algorithms? They're used in cryptography, for example.
18:36:49 <RainbowDash> and if that isn't enough, you can rewrite the entire program to still act the same and still be branchless in some sort of way.
18:37:02 <b_jonas> I thought "solid state" just means no moving parts, such as relays that aren't electromechanical but are built of semiconductor, or storage that doesn't have a rotating platter or moving tape but modern semiconductor magic
18:37:44 <ais523> korvo: so in practice those are nearly always branchless because it is hard to get a modern processor to take a constant amount of time if the program is brnaching
18:38:02 <korvo> RainbowDash: They're algorithms which execute in predictable time regardless of their inputs. Like, adding two numbers without taking different amounts of time depending on what those numbers are.
18:38:04 <RainbowDash> i think it is fine for the state of the program to be inside of memory but not be in the actual instruction pointer.
18:38:05 <RainbowDash> xylo said you can have a 1 rule 2 tape turing machine and change the state by having a single tape have the states in memory rather than it being in the hardware.
18:38:15 <ais523> b_jonas: the definition does seem to rule out relays, but no moving parts isn't sufficient
18:38:44 <korvo> ais523: Exactly. To branch could be to have observable distinctions in time/space usage. And isn't that the point, in some sense? To take a branch to potentially save time as opposed to computing *all* intermediate values?
18:39:04 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, because you're saying no vacuum tubes either, right
18:39:31 <korvo> RainbowDash: Like ais523 says, if the algorithm operates without examining the input values, then it can't possibly have branches which depend on those input values.
18:39:33 <RainbowDash> yes, branching saves time by not computing everything. while branchless might not save time because it might have to ignore values it computed.
18:39:39 <ais523> korvo: branchlessness does not survive optimisation, but I think it's OK to sometimes discuss concepts like that
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18:40:02 <RainbowDash> like when i say you don't need branches in some cases at all i mean something like
18:40:09 <ais523> for constant-time crypto, it has reached the point where some platforms are starting to create non-optimisations guarantees
18:40:46 <ais523> e.g. I think ARM recently gave a non-optimisation guarantee for a range of common arithmetic instructions, guaranteeing that they will actually be executed if they would have been executed in program order
18:40:47 <korvo> ais523: I suspect that we merely need to teach optimizers how to *not* speculate on the values of certain inputs.
18:41:07 <korvo> RainbowDash: On IRC, please use a pastebin to share more than one line of code. I like bpaste at bpa.st.
18:41:49 <ais523> that was actually an impressively fast paste, normally you get frozen for a minute or two if you try to paste that much
18:42:14 <ais523> either Libera are more lenient on that than Freenode used to be, or the IRC client knew exactly how fast a paste it could get away with
18:42:22 <korvo> RainbowDash: '&' is a Boolean operator. I understand what you're saying, though; the language has a notion of *control flow*, and you're saying that control flow isn't conditionalized.
18:42:39 <RainbowDash> i know it is a boolean operator, but yeah boolean logic to mimic control flow is what i more specfically meant.
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18:42:41 <ais523> RainbowDash: right, there are limits to how frequently you can post messages and pastes normally end up hitting the rate limit and making it hard to hold a conversation because of all the penalty lag you get as a result
18:43:05 <korvo> RainbowDash: IRC is a serialized protocol without any sort of channels or QoS. While pasting, you literally cannot do anything else. If your client is any good, it will allow you to interrupt a paste; if your client is great, it will either auto-pastebin it or prevent the paste.
18:44:34 <korvo> RainbowDash: IF and ELSE *are* control-flow operators. There's nothing mimicked or fake about it. This is the difference between what's technically computable within the system (usually anything computable!) and how we simulate that system in physical hardware. Like, the CPU will *jump* from one section to another, interrupting the stream of instructions.
18:44:54 <b_jonas> ais523: and it's a compiler problem too, there are libraries that try to convince too smart compilers to not do optimizations that can make the compiled code data-dependent, or to make sure the compiled code overwrites some amount of memory to forget information even if the complier believes it can prove that the write can be optimized away
18:45:07 <ais523> korvo: there are conceptual problems even then
18:45:22 <ais523> suppose I have a conditional forwards jump, it gets predicted as not taken, but it's actually taken
18:45:27 <RainbowDash> korvo im not saying the if and the else are the things mimicing it i mean the second part of the code
18:45:32 <ais523> so the compiler speulatively runs a few commands after the jump
18:45:38 <ais523> err, processor, not compiler
18:45:48 <ais523> say the command it reaches when it realises the jump is actually taken happens to be the command before the jump target
18:46:03 <RainbowDash> So what do you guys suppose is wrong with the definition "The branchless paradigm removes the use of statements controlling program flow, forcing the programmer to come up with solutions that mimic branches or completely computes the same result differently without having to mimic branching."
18:46:14 <ais523> now, it's running the exact same sequence of commands on both sides of the branch, just resetting the values if the branch happens to be taken
18:46:22 <korvo> RainbowDash: Oh, yes, for sure. I did fully agree with you on-wiki that there is a branchless paradigm. Like, we could have a page [[Branchless paradigm]] right now, I think. The main questions are about whether there should be a category, what it should be called, and what the criteria for inclusion are.
18:46:37 <ais523> this conceptually doesn't seem to be any different interpreting the conditional jump as a predication
18:46:52 <korvo> ais523: Who knows what secrets lurk in the hearts of L2? The Spectre knows! *Vincent Price laugh*
18:47:04 <RainbowDash> i think it should have a category as alot of pages fall into it and its not as niche as one might think
18:47:05 <int-e> b_jonas: And ultimately a hardware problem :) What's really stopping a CPU from short-cutting a bitwise and operation (say) if one of the inputs is already known to be 0?
18:47:28 <RainbowDash> i think hardware can be ignored to a certain point as ai said
18:47:34 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, both CPU problem and compiler optimization problem.
18:47:35 <ais523> int-e: short-circuiting divisions is a real thing that happens on certain processors
18:47:35 <int-e> apart from "that would be crazy" which has, historically, never stopped anybody
18:47:39 <RainbowDash> if it theortically would not branch then it would be branchless
18:47:41 <ais523> (not divide by 0, other special cases like divide by 1)
18:48:10 <int-e> (it was fine when CPUs were thousands to millions of transistors)
18:48:16 <korvo> RainbowDash: Honestly, that's a fairly good first sentence. I would want to see it followed up by citations saying who came up with it. Also an explanation clarifying some of the issues we've raised here, to help readers understand how this differs from other paradigms.
18:48:25 <int-e> ais523: yeah, makes sense, sadly
18:48:54 <RainbowDash> i came up with it, there is not alot of discussion on it because this is not a studied field too much. unless i am missing some grand author who writes alot about this.
18:48:59 <int-e> well. divisions kind of have always been variable time
18:49:01 <ais523> most of the arithmetic instructions are too fast already for fast-path optimisations to help
18:49:05 <ais523> but division is still pretty slow
18:49:32 <ais523> branchless programming is well-known, you might have invented it independently but you weren't the first
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18:49:49 <int-e> We can do this for multiplications too though, and then it's suddenly relevant for cryptography.
18:49:50 <korvo> RainbowDash: Offhand, it's a popular topic for GPU and DSP programmers, as well as cryptographers.
18:50:01 <RainbowDash> branchless programming is used in snippets of code often but not the whole thing if i recall correctly
18:50:23 <ais523> that said I'm generally not a fan of citations when it comes to topics which are well-known and many people are likely to have come up with on their own
18:50:30 <b_jonas> I mean, the whole point of blindfolded arithmetic is to show how we can simulate branching programming on a branchless machine
18:51:02 <RainbowDash> i mean you can't really cite it to anyone because alot of things come similar to it like blindfolded arthmetic
18:51:15 <ais523> or even for more obscure topics with a single author – some papers I worked on used the Muller C-element, I looked up the history, and it turned out that a lot of authors had just been copying citations from each other about the history of that element without checking the original source
18:51:29 <korvo> RainbowDash: I was literally hand-writing branchless GPU shaders over a decade ago for video rendering. Back then, concepts like swizzling and masking were standard for understanding both the GPU and also our programming models on top of it like GLSL.
18:51:43 <RainbowDash> oh yes, branchless does happen alot on shaders
18:52:02 <korvo> So no, it's not new. I was able to cite John Backus for [[functional paradigm]] and Alan Kay for [[object-oriented paradigm]]; I'm sure *somebody* has talked about it before.
18:52:09 <ais523> (something that I verified by borrowing a physical copy of the actual book that everyone was citing – it was fairly obscure, but librarians can be extremely good at their jobs – then chasing citations backwards from there)
18:52:13 <RainbowDash> but it can be generallized to everything, it can simulate any turing complete program. not just shaders or math.
18:52:33 <b_jonas> IOCCC 1992/buzzard.1.hint points this out: if you preprocess the program then it gets less readable, because before preprocessing it's an ordinary branching program, but after preprocessing it's branchless code
18:52:39 <korvo> I compared with SWAR; there's actually *two* separate schools of SWAR, with the other called "broadword", so if we had a page on SWAR then we'd have to cite both.
18:52:49 <RainbowDash> i mean i guess what i mean to say is i don't know who to cite because i did all this research myself essentially.
18:53:07 <RainbowDash> the halt and i/o variable are things that i had to make up and other people used it.
18:53:13 <ais523> korvo: ELEMENTARY is probably an extreme version of SWAR-style programming (although the "R" doesn't quite apply at the point where you're using double exponentials)
18:53:22 <RainbowDash> not saying it hasn't been done before im just saying that i brought it to attention for esolangers.
18:53:25 <b_jonas> today we do branchless programming because it lets us use SIMD better, or even GPUs
18:53:37 <ais523> b_jonas: or just to avoid the cost of branch mispredictions
18:54:07 <ais523> last time I checked a misprediction was around 30×-40× slower than a normal arithmetic instruction, that has probably changed since but is likely to still be in the right ballpark
18:54:07 <RainbowDash> do i have the go ahead to make it a category? and it can be edited to be more precise later
18:54:08 <b_jonas> but unlike blindfolded arithmetic those give more readable programs because they have more built-in primitive operations to support branchless conditionals
18:54:17 <RainbowDash> i mean there is always going to be some argument over a defintion as defintions are.
18:54:49 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that too, though the "30×-40× slower" thing really only applies if there isn't anything else slowing you down, such as cache misses
18:54:54 <korvo> ais523: Yeah. One of the papers, don't remember which, has the beautiful vision of a future where we periodically recompile our 8-bit programs to be SWAR'd on ever-broader machine words. They imagined that the 32-to-64 transition would lead to a grand *doubling* of performance on tight code!
18:54:58 <ais523> when a misprediction is that expensive, compiling to branchless code is going to be good unless you can keep mispredictions down to a very small proportion
18:55:19 <RainbowDash> also, should things with the branchless paradigm also have to be turing complete to fall in the catagorzation even though alot of total programs are branchless
18:55:40 <ais523> korvo: well, that really does help for some algorithms – it's just that they aren't used often
18:55:41 <RainbowDash> i mean i can think of one total programming language that you still program in the branchless paradigm however.
18:56:02 <ais523> SIMD going from 64 bits to 128 bits to 256 bits to 512 bits does actually give a near-doubling every time for certain programs
18:56:10 <int-e> How was I not aware of SWAR, a 1996 acronym. (The concept is familiar.)
18:56:21 <ais523> although, many modern processors have to underclock themselves to do particularly wide SIMD
18:56:26 <ais523> so you don't get a true doubling
18:56:36 <korvo> RainbowDash: You have the go-ahead to make [[Branchless paradigm]], at least. That's where we would put all of the references and explanations and nuances. I don't think that we have a definite list of like five articles which would fit the category, though.
18:56:57 <ais523> korvo: I think it should be [[Category:Branchless paradigm]] but [[Branchless programming]]
18:57:01 <RainbowDash> we have a definite list of like five articles however
18:57:23 <ais523> because the mainspace article should be about *both* languages that enforce branchless programming, and branchless programming used as a technique in languages that support full-powered conditoinals
18:57:35 <korvo> ais523: Okay! Let's bless it.
18:57:50 <RainbowDash> alright ill start writing them and then you guys can edit it
18:57:53 <korvo> Or maybe we just did?
18:58:17 <RainbowDash> where do you talk about the nuances though
18:58:31 <b_jonas> RainbowDash: in the mainspace article
18:58:34 <ais523> category description pages on Esolang should normally be very short
18:58:42 <korvo> RainbowDash: Excellent! Thanks for chatting, BTW. I hope you continue to chat and contribute.
18:58:45 <b_jonas> in the category page you only talk about the definition of what the category applies to
18:58:54 <RainbowDash> that's why i say where should we put the nuances because there is alot of them
18:59:09 <ais523> and just link to an article giving more information
18:59:10 <korvo> As an example, I moved nearly everything in [[category:functional paradigm]] to [[functional paradigm]] after IRC discussion.
18:59:13 <RainbowDash> because it doesnt really fit in branchless programming but it cant go in the catagorey either
18:59:47 <ais523> this is a little nontrivial and I'm not quite sure how to handle it right now
18:59:52 <korvo> Put it in [[branchless programming]]! If I were stubbing it, I'd put a section on GPUs, on DSPs, on SIMD, on cryptography. Go for it!
18:59:59 <ais523> (and said as much on Esolang talk:Categorisation)
19:00:13 <RainbowDash> Branchless programming only focuses on the techniques and not the paradigm
19:01:02 <RainbowDash> what if i make a page called [[Catgorization:Branchless paradigm]] (typod ill fix that later) [[Branchless Paradigm]] and [[Branchless Programming]] with see more
19:01:19 <RainbowDash> where the catagorization links to the branchless paradigm page to explain more
19:01:26 <esolangs> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170630&oldid=155064 * B jonas * (-8) hereby showing a rude gesture to the IOCCC webpage maintainers
19:01:27 <RainbowDash> and the branchless paradigm links to the programming for the techniques
19:01:36 <ais523> the capitalisation is wrong, should be [[Branchless programming]] with a lowercase p
19:01:39 <ais523> because it isn't a proper noun
19:02:21 <int-e> (it should be [[branchless programming]] but Wikimedia has Ideas about Page titles)
19:02:31 <int-e> Or Mediawiki, rather.
19:02:41 <korvo> I think it can fit in one article. [[ZISC]] and [[OISC]] have a similar burden, because it's ultimately something of a *perspective* whether a machine is one- or zero-instructioned, and it turns out that there's a natural way to move from one perspective to another.
19:03:02 <RainbowDash> what about an articled called like [[Branchless]]
19:03:04 <int-e> RainbowDash: I'd prefer starting with a Branchless programming page
19:03:09 <korvo> Defunctionalization (which we don't have a page on yet?) is another good example.
19:03:14 <ais523> I think maybe the paradigm article should be a section on the programming page rather than an article of its own
19:03:35 <RainbowDash> ill start with the programming page then as we all agree it should exist
19:03:36 <int-e> We can split it later if there's enough for two separate pages.
19:04:09 <RainbowDash> so [[Branchless programming]] or [[branchless programming]]
19:04:15 <ais523> int-e: lowercase titles are rare, there's something of a split between sentencecase and titlecase but normally people wouldn't spell a title entirely in lowercase unless it starts with a word which for some reason *can't* be capitalised
19:04:19 <int-e> RainbowDash: the former
19:04:41 <ais523> RainbowDash: in MediaWiki page titles, the first character is case-insensitive but the others are case-sensitive
19:05:16 <ais523> now I'm curious about how it handles Turkish İ and ı
19:06:12 <ais523> looks like Wikipedia calls the articles "İ" and "Dotless I"
19:09:41 <esolangs> [[Obfuscated Tiny C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170631&oldid=63518 * B jonas * (+195) IOCCC webpage broke all the links
19:10:55 <b_jonas> (at least that's the default; Mediawiki can be configured otherwise)
19:11:01 <ais523> I think the definition is fine (although it's worth noting that it depends on what an instruction is, which is somewhat subjective)
19:11:25 <ais523> doesn't have to be noted in the introduction, it can be mentioned later
19:11:46 <ais523> although, now I'm thinking about conditional-skip instructions
19:11:59 <ais523> having a conditional skip *and* a goto clearly makes a language branchful
19:12:17 <ais523> but having one of them without the other might not
19:14:07 <RainbowDash> i think the most stressful part of this page is the first sentence everything after that is fine
19:15:06 <ais523> hmm, what about "'''Branchless programming''' is a programming technique in which the program always runs the same commands in the same order."
19:15:44 <korvo> RainbowDash: Correct! The first sentence of the article must clearly explain what the topic is, what it's called, how we should classify it, what it's compared to, and some other stuff. You'll get the hang of it eventually.
19:16:10 <ais523> korvo: "what it's compared to" can go in the second or third sentence sometimes
19:16:16 <RainbowDash> i've created many articles but none that must meet up to the high status quota. but i do know alot about this topic
19:16:24 <RainbowDash> what it's compared to can you expand on that?
19:16:49 <ais523> I suspect korvo's expansion will be different from mine
19:18:04 <korvo> RainbowDash: Like, if there's a context. "X, also called X', is a Thing from Place. It is notable among Things for Shape and Color. X was first documented in 18xx by Somebody."
19:18:33 <korvo> Many of us have done English WP before, and after a few hundred edits you get used to the conventions.
19:18:52 <RainbowDash> you guys said like GPU programming but i want the list
19:19:24 <esolangs> [[Langton's ant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170632&oldid=170625 * Corbin * (+119) /* Computational class */ Light cleanups suggested by ais523 on IRC. This section still doesn't vibe with the rest of the article.
19:19:25 <esolangs> [[Binary lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170633&oldid=153916 * B jonas * (+6) IOCCC webpage broke all the links
19:19:43 <ais523> (practical uses) code that needs to deal with unpredictable data, GPU programming, SIMD, constant-time code for cryptography; (esoteric uses) languages which are so bad at conditionals that branchless programming is easier
19:20:07 <korvo> I'd mention GPUs, DSPs (like GPUs but for e.g. audio data), cryptography, -- ^^ what they said.
19:20:34 <esolangs> [[Unlambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170634&oldid=159723 * B jonas * (+0) IOCCC webpage broke all the links
19:20:43 <ais523> korvo: I've only worked with DSPs once and I used branchy code for that
19:21:04 <ais523> I can see how branchless code might be useful for that in some cases though
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19:22:05 <korvo> I haven't done a lot of it. At university I worked on the OSWALD, which remarkably is bluelinked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_State_Wireless_Active_Learning_Device
19:23:16 <korvo> The reason Java worked on that platform is because I slept in the lab for like 3wks and babysat BitBake, fixing build errors. Good times.
19:23:44 <esolangs> [[Print("Hello, World!")]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170635&oldid=168791 * Somefan * (+196) rephrasing and added c/c++ sample and see also
19:24:06 <ais523> there are some interesting cases, e.g. Fourier transforms are inherently branchless just because they're pure arithmetic, but for doing bignum multiplications you're normally doing Fourier transforms modulo a large number, and then it becomes branchful due to modulo being faster to implement with branches than branchlessly
19:24:58 <ais523> working on some code like that, there was a potential double-carry which was so unlikely (1 in 2³²) that trying to do it branchlessly would have been a waste, I can live with extremely rare mispredicts
19:25:02 <korvo> RainbowDash: There's other sections that we'll add too. Like, SWAR/broadword will be its own article which I'll stub shortly. Processors like later x86 have cmov, and modern ARM can conditionalize any(?) instruction, and those should have their own section too.
19:25:16 * korvo procrastinating on LangJam
19:25:31 <RainbowDash> alright im just working on the barebones for the page right now
19:25:48 <ais523> I'm suspicious of the whole idea of LangJam, I don't think a week is enough to make an interesting language *and* write a game in it
19:26:04 <korvo> Oh, never mind, [[wikipedia:SWAR]] is actually good now. We'll just do ''Main article:'' on it.
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19:28:25 <b_jonas> there's also a distinction in non-eso that we may have to think about. sometimes for cryptography or hard real time you want memory access to be perfectly predictable, i.e. not data-dependent, in addition to there being no branches, which matters on modern platforms where memory access can be non-constant time or can leak information to future memory accesses. that's a stronger requirement than
19:29:08 <korvo> RainbowDash: I need to take off for a bit, but one last note: Your proposed sentence is a run-on. It's okay to break it up by first giving a *short* version of your thesis, and then starting the *longer* version with "That is, branchless programming is ..."
19:30:07 <b_jonas> for real-time what matters is that you can make sure the code won't suddenly be too slow if it encounters lots of unusual memory addresses that aren't available from the cache; for cryptography what matters is that nothing is leaked through any side channel, even through the code running unusually *fast*
19:30:08 <ais523> b_jonas: that could also matter in esolangs, especially when programming weird machines
19:30:35 <korvo> The authors of [[formal grammar]] used this a lot, and it can be an obvious issue when repeated, but it's completely normal for a first paragraph to struggle to contain its topic. By necessity, you'll need to use the rest of the article to explain the concept anyway!
19:30:48 <ais523> speculative sidechannel attacks are effectively an esolang that practical code has to try very hard to not interpret
19:31:13 <korvo> b_jonas: I completely forgot that hard RT is a thing. Well said.
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19:31:35 <b_jonas> it also comes up in homomorphic encryption code
19:32:12 <ais523> I have some interest in working out how to design a compiler that produces hard-realtime-safe output, but it seems like an exceedingly hard problem
19:32:43 <ais523> how could you possibly make sure that enough of the data that a codeblock is accessing is in cache already?
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19:33:01 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but hard realtime can also be laxer, because it can have actual branching conditionals, as long as you can bound the time of both branches
19:33:26 <ais523> b_jonas: and of the mispredict
19:33:52 <ais523> the default hard-realtime assumptions probably have to be that every memory access misses cache and every branch is mispredicted
19:34:08 <ais523> but under those assumptions, programs run extremely slowly and it's hard to get useful time bounds
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19:34:27 <ais523> actually, "every memory access misses TLB" is even worse
19:35:34 <b_jonas> usually you want as little code as possible to be hard realtime, and make it communicate with the rest of the code that is only soft realtime or not realtime for any function that doesn't need to be hard realtime
19:36:00 <esolangs> [[Branchless programming]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170636 * RainbowDash * (+2619) Created page with "'''Branchless programming''' is a programming technique in which the program always runs the same commands in the same order. Practical uses for branchless programming consists of : code that needs to deal with unpredictable data, GPU programming, SIM
19:36:07 <RainbowDash> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Branchless_programming
19:36:15 <RainbowDash> oh i guess you can see that in the irc oops heh
19:36:25 <ais523> yes, we have a bot reporting on that
19:36:26 <RainbowDash> it is a start, it is not full or polished.
19:36:38 <b_jonas> in the dayjob company that I'm resigning from, controlling chemical plants, none of the stored program code is hard realtime, though there is a lot of soft realtime; hard realtime is implemented in hardware only
19:36:42 <RainbowDash> i also dont like how the second part is organized
19:37:27 <ais523> it'll need some cleanup, but it's a wiki, creating an article means that anyone can clean it up if they want to
19:37:37 <RainbowDash> when will we make the branchless paradigm catagory?
19:37:47 <ais523> b_jonas: that seems sensible
19:38:04 <ais523> do you have a new dayjob lined up? or is the current company bad enough to make you resign anyway?
19:39:22 <ais523> RainbowDash: I'm might be better to wait until I'm more awake, in case admin help is needed, but I think there's been enough discussion for its creation to be allowed
19:39:47 <RainbowDash> alright, you may create it then i can edit it if needed
19:43:15 <APic> Nighty-Night * 😴
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19:47:38 <esolangs> [[Branchless programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170637&oldid=170636 * RainbowDash * (+1031) tech
19:48:20 <RainbowDash> That is all the work i think ill do today as i need to play with friends but you guys are welcome to edit it as you see fit.
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20:26:13 <esolangs> [[Lil]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170638&oldid=131434 * Orby * (-41) Changing command format a bit
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22:23:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170639&oldid=170621 * Buckets * (+13)
22:24:07 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170640&oldid=170592 * Buckets * (+12)
22:24:21 <esolangs> [[Ialist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170641 * Buckets * (+1619) Created page with "{{lowercase}} ialist is An Esoteric programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | || Push the X and Inject the Y Coordinates of The Space. |- | || Swap the Bottom And The top. |- | || Turn Rightwards
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00:52:44 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170642&oldid=170598 * Somefan * (+17) add golfscript
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03:37:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IHaveAStrongPassword * New user account
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03:46:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170643&oldid=170538 * IHaveAStrongPassword * (+187) introduction
04:09:00 <esolangs> [[OBLIVIA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170644 * IHaveAStrongPassword * (+368) Created page with "OBLIVIA (Object Building Language for Very Idiosyncratic Articulations) is a language inspired by both Lisp and APL. In Oblivia, an object is a closure and a scope. A closure is an object and a scope. A scope is a closure and an object. Hello World: foo:
04:10:06 <esolangs> [[OBLIVIA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170645&oldid=170644 * IHaveAStrongPassword * (+1335)
04:12:49 <esolangs> [[OBLIVIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170646&oldid=170645 * IHaveAStrongPassword * (+180)
04:28:36 <esolangs> [[OBLIVIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170647&oldid=170646 * IHaveAStrongPassword * (+106)
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08:25:29 <esolangs> [[Ialist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170648&oldid=170641 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+9) stub
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13:27:47 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Signature]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170649&oldid=164178 * Hotcrystal0 * (+327)
13:28:36 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170650&oldid=169496 * Hotcrystal0 * (+81)
14:12:05 <esolangs> [[Non-golfing-brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170651 * GolferHome * (+1309) Created page with "== Non-golfing Brainfuck == Non-golfing brainfuck (also known as NGB) is a no-quine modification of standard brainfuck which is terrible for golfing in, where, the program first need to start with: THIS HEADER IS REQUIRED TO MAKE THIS LANGUAGE NOT FO
14:17:39 <esolangs> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170652&oldid=150466 * * (+34)
14:19:10 <esolangs> [[Non-golfing-brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170653&oldid=170651 * GolferHome * (+6941)
14:19:52 <esolangs> [[Non-golfing-brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170654&oldid=170653 * GolferHome * (+3) /* Examples */
14:21:08 <esolangs> [[Non-golfing-brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170655&oldid=170654 * GolferHome * (-37) /* Hello World */
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14:41:03 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Mirror to Esolangist's Chess Games]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170656&oldid=169668 * PrySigneToFry * (+37)
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15:22:54 <esolangs> [[Deadfib]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170657 * None1 * (+491) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1}} It uses [[Deadfish]] commands, but has nothing to do with Deadfish. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Command table |- ! Command !! Meaning |- | i || Read a str'''i'''ng from user input and interpret it in [[brainfuck]]. |- | d || Rea'''d''' a stri
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15:48:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:AnotherUser05]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170658&oldid=170364 * AnotherUser05 * (+327)
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16:06:43 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170659&oldid=170264 * Aadenboy * (+876) update crap
16:17:31 <esolangs> [[Non-golfing-brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170660&oldid=170655 * Corbin * (+102) Categories.
16:24:53 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170661&oldid=169956 * Aadenboy * (-1)
17:14:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AmusableGauze * New user account
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17:47:29 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170662&oldid=170523 * NTMDev * (+12)
17:50:21 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170663&oldid=170662 * NTMDev * (+430) /* Sets (and Set Operations) */
17:51:26 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170664&oldid=170663 * NTMDev * (+157) /* Displaying Code Stack */
17:52:20 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170665&oldid=170664 * NTMDev * (+228) /* Displaying Code Stack */
17:59:19 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170666 * Junkshipp * (+3245) Created page with "i have an idea for a visual, typed minimalistic esolang. each value would be a block, some atomic and some composite (i.e. made out of smaller blocks). typing rules would be enforced by teeth on these blocks. for example, the type N -> N -> N would b
18:01:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * A human probably * New user account
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18:53:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170667&oldid=170643 * AmusableGauze * (+546) Added my introduction
19:12:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Junkshipp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170668 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+235) Created page with "Hello Junkshipp! i was just wondering, would you perhaps want to make an esolang with me? im a big fan of your work! --~~~~"
19:18:37 <esolangs> [[Hexassembly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170669 * Esolangist alt * (+833) Esolangist alt
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20:43:32 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170670&oldid=170665 * NTMDev * (+1) /* Loop structure Function */
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21:57:10 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170671&oldid=170670 * NTMDev * (+754) /* Simple Math operations */
22:00:54 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170672&oldid=170671 * NTMDev * (+24) /* Sets (and Set Operations) */
22:05:45 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170673&oldid=170672 * NTMDev * (-149) /* Bugs */
22:07:11 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170674&oldid=170673 * NTMDev * (+24) /* Bugs */
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22:16:07 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170675&oldid=170674 * NTMDev * (+403) /* Sets (and Set Operations) */
22:17:02 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170676&oldid=170675 * NTMDev * (+127) /* Creating a List */
22:18:00 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170677&oldid=170676 * NTMDev * (+148) /* Creating a Set */
22:30:05 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170678&oldid=170677 * NTMDev * (+185) /* Sets (and Set Operations) */
22:30:23 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170679&oldid=170678 * NTMDev * (-3) /* Using Set Operations */
22:31:00 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170680&oldid=170679 * NTMDev * (+0) /* Using Set Operations */
22:33:54 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170681&oldid=170680 * NTMDev * (+151) /* Using Set Operations */
22:36:08 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170682&oldid=170681 * NTMDev * (+20) /* Using Set Operations */
22:37:47 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170683&oldid=170682 * Aadenboy * (-36) changing the link to be accessible
22:38:45 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170684&oldid=170683 * Aadenboy * (+44) changing the link to be accessible
23:08:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170685&oldid=170639 * Buckets * (+13) /* B */
23:08:40 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170686&oldid=170640 * Buckets * (+12)
23:08:52 <esolangs> [[Byllow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170687 * Buckets * (+3086) Created page with "Byllow is an Esoteric programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. This Esolang was Made After [[Billow]] and Named similarly Because They derive From the Same idea. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Pseudo-Commands !! Instructions |- | 0,0,0 || Noop. |- | 0,0,+ |
23:09:26 <esolangs> [[Billow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170688&oldid=158444 * Buckets * (+102)
23:15:18 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170689&oldid=160771 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+25)
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00:54:41 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170690&oldid=170378 * Tommyaweosme * (+151)
00:55:35 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170691&oldid=170684 * NTMDev * (+107) /* Using Set Operations */
00:58:09 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170692&oldid=170691 * NTMDev * (+2) /* Using Set Operations */
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01:37:15 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170693&oldid=170692 * NTMDev * (+629) /* Using Set Operations */
01:40:22 <esolangs> [[NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170694&oldid=138201 * Tommyaweosme * (+198)
01:44:34 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170695&oldid=170693 * NTMDev * (+37)
01:54:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Albuquerque challenge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170696&oldid=164208 * Tommyaweosme * (+583)
02:02:15 <int-e> b_jonas: Did you see that Zaspar (probably) finished his Factorio 1.1 Any% TAS? (probably... apparently the game or the TAS mod, I don't know which, have an item duplication issue that might still invalidate it)
02:32:12 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think I've seen this
02:34:48 <int-e> b_jonas: It's very recent: Working out the final 10 seconds is the most recent stream on https://www.twitch.tv/zaspar_/videos ...there's a highlight with just the run.
02:36:44 <int-e> (I haven't been following at all. I saw a WIP last year I think. I found the final stream purely by accident, I think he raided thedoh afterwards and that's what I saw.)
02:37:45 <int-e> Anyway, it's a really impressive feat.
02:41:59 <b_jonas> int-e: is it using the duplication bug that MikeHendi found that's since been patched (in 1.1)? That's one that gives a TAS a lot of advantage because it requires a lot of tedious clicking with few mistakes, so that's one of those cases that could give extreme advantage to a TAS if used carefully. It is somewhat limited, you can only use it to duplicate items that can use productivity modules for
02:42:05 <b_jonas> crafting, and you can't use it to duplicate rocket parts, so I'm not sure if it helps an any% run at all. But it might, a TAS could perhaps do it in multiple assemblers in parallel and produce RCUs cheaply that way.
02:43:01 <b_jonas> let me see. https://player.twitch.tv/?parent=a.a&video=2642731476&quality=480p30
02:44:19 <int-e> b_jonas: I only know that Zaspar has to put in effort to avoid accidental duplication (the run is supposed to not use it). He mentioned which patch version he's on towards the end but I forgot.
02:44:28 <b_jonas> I guess a better use might be to duplicate yellow science.
02:45:14 <b_jonas> start of that stream shows Factorio version 1.1.92
02:45:21 <b_jonas> let me look up when that glitch was patched
02:45:26 <int-e> ah, that answers that then
02:47:43 <b_jonas> that free items glitch was fixed only in 1.1.110, which is the very last 1.1 release, and later than 1.1.92
02:49:05 <int-e> 1.1.93 has a bunch of fixes that could conceivable break a TAS, like "Fixed inserter could take items from wrong side of a belt when the belt shape was changed."
02:52:04 <int-e> All Zaspar really said about that is that the run broke badly enough that he gave up on fixing it.
02:53:31 <int-e> It's fragile because it does stuff like rebuilding a belt to pick up whatever item of interest happens to be there in that instance. Oh or turning belts for a few ticks to walk a bit faster.
02:53:55 <int-e> s/instance/instant/
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02:59:25 <b_jonas> I can understand that. I'm invested in that inserter bug, I found it independently, but didn't report because I saw two duplicate tickets.
03:00:06 <b_jonas> I can understand that sort of thing can desync a TAS even if you aren't trying to abuse it
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04:30:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Around and around, sleeping sound]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170697&oldid=148205 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+149)
04:30:49 <esolangs> [[Around and around, sleeping sound]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170698&oldid=98162 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-56)
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07:33:45 <esolangs> [[ByteByteIfJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170699&oldid=169474 * Timm * (+1)
07:34:11 <esolangs> [[3Byte2Jump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170700 * Timm * (+486) Created page with " A B C D E do A* - B* = C* if C* = D then jump E else jump PC + 1 X* in code means just X does not address X {| class="wikitable" |+ -1 in |- ! byte !! what do |- | A || NEGATE B |- | B || INPUT (A* - in) |- | C || OUTPUT (A*) (B will do nothing) |- | D || UN
07:34:32 <esolangs> [[3Byte2Jump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170701&oldid=170700 * Timm * (+83)
07:34:42 <esolangs> [[3Byte2Jump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170702&oldid=170701 * Timm * (+1)
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07:35:07 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170703&oldid=170599 * Timm * (+17)
07:40:59 <esolangs> [[ByteByteIfJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170704&oldid=170699 * Timm * (+108)
07:41:13 <esolangs> [[ByteByteIfJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170705&oldid=170704 * Timm * (+1)
07:41:44 <esolangs> [[ByteByteIfJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170706&oldid=170705 * Timm * (+4)
07:41:53 <esolangs> [[ByteByteIfJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170707&oldid=170706 * Timm * (+1)
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10:13:11 <esolangs> [[GAMEONTHUE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170709 * Timm * (+208) Created page with "I::=::: PAE::=C MH::=PC PH::=hP Mh::=PJ Ph::=hP JP::=PJ JM::=MJ JE::=CE MAE::=aM Ma::=aM Pa::=J LC::=~you lose CW::=~you win PC::=PK MC::=CM KP::=PK KM::=MK KE::=IE Lh::=LJ JW::=CW ::= LPPMMMMMPMPPIEEEEEEEEEW"
10:14:04 <esolangs> [[GAMEONTHUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170710&oldid=170709 * Timm * (+39)
10:14:28 <esolangs> [[GAMEONTHUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170711&oldid=170710 * Timm * (+0)
10:14:45 <esolangs> [[GAMEONTHUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170712&oldid=170711 * Timm * (+7)
10:16:26 <esolangs> [[GAMEONTHUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170713&oldid=170712 * Timm * (+131)
10:18:19 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170714&oldid=170703 * Timm * (+39)
10:24:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:GAMEONTHUE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170715 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+132) Created page with "WHat is this? --~~~~"
11:18:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:GAMEONTHUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170716&oldid=170715 * JIT * (+283)
11:21:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:GAMEONTHUE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170717&oldid=170716 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+167)
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12:24:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Camolover * New user account
12:29:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170718&oldid=170667 * Camolover * (+168) added my signature
12:30:19 <esolangs> [[User:Camolover]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170719 * Camolover * (+98) Created page with "A french student and programmer, Creating project for fun like games website or esoteric languages"
12:41:37 <esolangs> [[Morse-Assembly-Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170720 * Camolover * (+4788) Created the page, with all necessary data
12:53:40 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170721&oldid=170543 * Camolover * (+110) Added Morse-Assembly-language
12:56:21 <esolangs> [[User:Camolover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170722&oldid=170719 * Camolover * (+227) Updated profil page
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13:15:34 <esolangs> [[Happy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170723&oldid=154758 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+9) nearly nothing is actually, clearly explained, like memory(and such). {{stub}}
13:31:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Needle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170724 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+315) Created page with "Is <code>NEXT</code> correct? it decrements the current cell then moves right and increments it. that seems wrong. the correct implementation would(in the case of moving right) be <code>()_</code> --~~~~"
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13:51:32 <esolangs> [[SletScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170725&oldid=168858 * I am islptng * (+421)
14:22:28 <esolangs> [[Deadfib]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170726&oldid=170657 * None1 * (+228)
14:22:43 <esolangs> [[Deadfib]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170727&oldid=170726 * None1 * (+1) /* brainfuck interpreter */
14:24:21 <esolangs> [[Deadfib]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170728&oldid=170727 * None1 * (+82)
14:26:47 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170729&oldid=170721 * None1 * (+83) /* General languages */
14:31:31 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170730&oldid=169881 * None1 * (+91) /* My Esolangs */
14:31:57 <esolangs> [[Deadfib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170731&oldid=170728 * None1 * (+5) /* See also */ wrong link
14:47:04 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170732&oldid=170695 * NTMDev * (+178)
14:49:36 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170733&oldid=170732 * NTMDev * (+236) /* Using Set Operations */
14:52:51 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170734&oldid=170733 * NTMDev * (+231) /* Editing a Set */
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14:54:22 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170735&oldid=170734 * NTMDev * (+377) /* ObjNONE() */
14:57:06 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170736&oldid=170735 * NTMDev * (+158) /* Editing a Set */
14:57:29 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170737&oldid=170736 * NTMDev * (+45) /* LogicalOperation */
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15:03:08 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170738&oldid=170737 * NTMDev * (+543) /* add */
15:03:19 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170739&oldid=170738 * * (+0) /* How To Save */
15:06:11 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170740&oldid=170739 * NTMDev * (+418) /* copy */
15:15:06 <esolangs> [[This is not a brainfuck derivative]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170741&oldid=114391 * None1 * (+33)
15:17:59 <esolangs> [[Not a brainfuck derivative]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170742&oldid=139259 * None1 * (+96)
15:18:53 <esolangs> [[This is not a brainfuck derivative]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170743&oldid=170741 * None1 * (+27)
15:19:14 <esolangs> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170744&oldid=154953 * None1 * (+27)
15:25:34 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170745&oldid=165372 * GolferHome * (+253) Add dedicated algorithm
15:28:30 <esolangs> [[User:GolferHome]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170746 * GolferHome * (+337) Created page with "Mostly in [https://code.golf/golfers/JOrE20 Code Golf], sometimes in [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/128434/qoo-ookalan Code Golf Stack Exchange.] I also own a very popular AI image generator tool, which you can visit this [https://perchance.org/rea
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16:05:07 <esolangs> [[This is not a brainfuck derivative]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170747&oldid=170743 * Corbin * (+511) Clean up another junk page.
16:05:27 <esolangs> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170748&oldid=170744 * Corbin * (-946) Clean up a bad page for a bad idea. It's still junk but at least it's more honest junk now.
16:08:47 <esolangs> [[Pythile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170749&oldid=105630 * Hammy2 * (+1) marked as stub, this was pretty obviously a stub
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16:34:59 <esolangs> [[Huh programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170750&oldid=160144 * Hammy2 * (+104)
17:21:22 <fizzie> int-e: For the record, finally got around to revisiting day 10 to drop that annoying third-party dependency.
17:21:36 <fizzie> Ended up with a thing that analytically finds the full lattice of solutions for the relevant system of Diophantine equations (through conversion to Hermite normal form), which turns out to always have a rank between 0 to 3, inclusive, at least for my inputs.
17:21:54 <fizzie> Then it basically finds a bounding box for the region of valid values (i.e., corresponding to a solution with >= 0 presses of all buttons) of those 0-3 variables, and iterates over the integer coordinates in that box to find the solution that minimizes the sum.
17:22:02 <fizzie> It's (probably over)complicated, but eh, it works, and now it's a pure-Go program once again. It's even marginally faster than the previous solution (of calling into the lp_solve library), at ~5ms vs. ~7ms.
17:23:53 <fizzie> I don't think I can manage to turn all of it into Burlesque though, so either I'll need something simpler (but still computationally feasible) for that, or else just miss out on the "complete set of solutions in Burlesque" achievement even in this year's easy-mode format.
17:26:25 <int-e> fizzie: I was wondering for a moment whether the dimensions (nullity of the underlying homogeneous system) would be low enough to allow something like that
17:26:50 <int-e> But in terms of implementation effort, using lp_solve is far superior.
17:27:01 * int-e didn't even use a binding.
17:27:21 <int-e> (I'm not even sure whether there is a ready to use one for Haskell)
17:28:33 <int-e> fizzie: My regret is day 12 where I had three encodings before I finally tried the trivial heuristics.
17:29:24 <int-e> (3: One for lp_solve, one to SMT-LIB, and one to CNF. None of these were fast enough for the unsatisfiable problems.)
17:29:35 <fizzie> There's github.com/draffensperger/golp for Go, but it had a bunch of (test-only) Go dependencies of its own, so I just used cgo directly. And yes, it was definitely less effort.
17:29:58 <int-e> Oh, Debian's pastebin is having difficulties?
17:30:15 <b_jonas> which one is debian's pastebin? dpaste.com or dpaste.org?
17:31:04 <fizzie> For day 12, I just spent an hour or so _thinking_ about it (without actually doing anything) before doing the trivial heuristics.
17:31:05 <int-e> fizzie: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/aoc-2025-10-2.hs is what I did
17:31:22 <fizzie> It's annoying when the example of the day is fundamentally different from the actual puzzle input like that.
17:32:12 <int-e> fizzie: Still faster than my 4.5 hours.
17:33:11 <int-e> Heck. It's worse... I didn't find the trivial satisfiability heuristic until the next day.
17:34:16 <int-e> I just saw that there was a lot of room left in the cases that weren't obviously unsatisfiable by area. So I went ahead and submitted a guess.
17:34:16 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/Pr4z.go is what I did, plus a whole lot of rather more verbose parsing code.
17:35:27 <int-e> I *did* enjoy the perversion of doing runhaskell | sh | grep | runhaskell[ish]
17:36:19 <int-e> (hmm, awk would've been shorter for that last bit)
17:37:19 <fizzie> (Fun fact: AoC has a special blanket exception from the general horribly intrusive Google IP/copyright/etc processes, including for solution-sharing, so I wouldn't actually need that license/copyright header, but I made my AoC repo before sanity won over here w.r.t. that, so I just keep it around.)
17:37:26 <b_jonas> what is the sh doing there?
17:38:06 <int-e> b_jonas: saving me from splitting my stdout into chunks to feed into lp_solve; instead I generate lp_solve <<<EOF ... EOF chunks
17:38:36 <int-e> basically I'm using sh's ability to spawn processes and feed them
17:38:48 <int-e> Haskell can do that too but it's more verbose
17:40:31 <int-e> fizzie: Ah so the go code there just does a bit of marshalling and the actual lp-solve setup is on the C side. Which makes perfect sense in context.
17:42:12 <fizzie> There's probably a copy that could be eliminated, but I didn't want to propagate the use of the `C.foo` types outside that file, and while I think in all cases they have identical in-memory representations, Go still treats `C.uint32_t` as different type from `uint32`.
17:42:18 <int-e> b_jonas: not sure why I wrote <<< instead of <<. I guess I just use <<< *a lot*.
17:42:52 <int-e> avoiding copies is nearly useless for this anyway
17:44:55 <fizzie> The lp_solve C API feels kind of... quirky and archaic. And not very... namespaced. (C.f. exported functions called `solve`, `set_outputfile` and whatnot.)
17:45:02 <int-e> (I mean I fully expect the time savings to be lost in the noise unless you run it millions of times)
17:45:56 <int-e> fizzie: Hah, have you ever hacked nauty? :)
17:46:30 <esolangs> [[Ruler function]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170751 * Aadenboy * (+906) add program form
17:46:38 <int-e> (that one isn't even a library)
17:51:51 <korvo> int-e: But just imagine, you could have used GNU Parallel instead~
17:52:15 <int-e> fizzie: Instead you're invited to use the preprocessor to use a different name than `main` for the main function so you can have your own: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/nauty-callgeng.c
17:52:39 <int-e> korvo: I'm not familiar, should I consider myself lucky? :)
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17:53:42 <int-e> (For what I was doing at the time I ended up actually tweaking a few more things and then doing an #include "geng.c"
17:53:43 <korvo> int-e: It's a little clunky. It's one of those systems that has a dozen builtin operators for different kinds of parallel pipelines. Also, infamously, it's the product of an academic paper and you're expected to cite its usage in just about any sort of publishing context.
17:55:16 <int-e> ah, so it's non-free software :P
17:55:33 <korvo> int-e: https://bpa.st/VQPA here's what $(parallel) prints with no arguments. You're expected to sit down with the man page for an hour first.
17:56:41 <korvo> And yeah, there's been much argument on whether it really is Free. It's GPL for sure.
17:58:05 <int-e> Well in that case since the GPL forbids tacking on additional restrictions... I don't think they can enforce that payment.
17:59:05 <b_jonas> korvo: wait… where's the licensing information in that?
17:59:06 <int-e> Anyway. They're not wrong about the citation thing. But the way they convey this information looks terribly obnoxious.
17:59:50 <b_jonas> aren't they licencing this under the GPL, which would require printing info about the license when invoked in the default way in an interactive mode?
18:00:00 <b_jonas> how can they print that banner but not license info?
18:00:12 <korvo> b_jonas: Right!? You're expected to have already read part of the manual before you see this notice. In practice, users get told two or three times about the citation requirement, and maybe once about the GPL.
18:01:03 <b_jonas> int-e: isn't that just a compile error?
18:01:15 <int-e> IIUC the GPL *encourages* you to print license information in interactive programs but doesn't require it either.
18:01:34 <korvo> int-e: Anyway, on the original joke, the classic response is "but then I would have had to cite GNU Parallel"
18:01:53 <korvo> "and I'd need a bibliography just for GNU Parallel, and that would be a big hassle just because I thought about using GNU Parallel"
18:02:33 <esolangs> [[Ruler function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170752&oldid=170751 * Aadenboy * (+305) alternate constructions
18:03:08 <int-e> b_jonas: I omitted the arguments :P It's how you can print a banner.
18:03:27 <korvo> If I wrote papers professionally I'd make it a routine to try to sneak in sentences like "The authors briefly considered whether GNU Parallel[1] was suitable for the task. However, GNU Parallel is a tool for running multiple processes in parallel, and this paper describes a serial compiler."
18:04:37 <int-e> [1] Citation omitted because we're not using GNU Parallel.
18:04:58 <int-e> (Good luck convincing any editor to keep that in.)
18:05:54 <int-e> (Convincing bibtex should not be too hard, it'll be som @misc I think.)
18:06:10 <korvo> Oh no, I'd do [1] Tange, O. GNU Parallel. ... Each citation is a tiny signal to Tange's boss that they should be promoted/tenured.
18:06:46 <korvo> I'm not a professional scientist, so my citations do nothing for them. I used it a bunch in university for sysadmin tasks.
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18:07:49 <b_jonas> korvo: throw in "On the suggestion of a reviewer" and hide it from the first version of the article,
18:08:43 <korvo> b_jonas knows how to play the game.
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18:15:03 <int-e> korvo: it'd be amusing if there were real repercussions. "I can't show my face at conferences anymore because I failed to cite GNU Parallel"
18:15:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Junkshipp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170753&oldid=170668 * Junkshipp * (+192)
18:15:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Junkshipp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170754&oldid=170753 * Junkshipp * (+90)
18:31:18 <korvo> That'd be a great shirt for a conference. "I cited GNU Parallel and all I got was this T-shirt"
18:38:09 <int-e> Oh it gets better. https://cgit.git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/parallel.git/tree/src/parallel#n2145
18:39:13 <int-e> Eh, I'll just stay away.
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18:41:29 <korvo> LMAO, as we used to say. Truly amazing, thanks.
18:43:58 <int-e> (But if I were so inclined I'd question that you can enforce an agreement in this manner and hit them with the GDPR.)
18:44:23 <int-e> (Denmark has laws implmenting it.)
18:55:08 <fizzie> The text at the citation notice link does concede that it's no kind of requirement.
18:55:26 <fizzie> "As the request for citation is not a legal requirement this is acceptable under GPLv3 and cleared with Richard M. Stallman himself."
18:56:53 <fizzie> https://cgit.git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/parallel.git/tree/src/parallel#n2774 -- wowza.
18:57:22 <fizzie> Apparently George and Andreas made the mistake of disobeying.
19:02:45 <esolangs> [[Object-Oriented Brainfuck (Hammy)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170755 * Hammy2 * (+3218) Created page with "Object-oriented Brainfuck is an esolang by [[User:Hammy]]. ==The making== There isn't variables in BF, so no objects. And there's no way to use two cell's values at the same time. So I added another tape. <code>></code> and <code><</code> now mo
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19:05:12 <int-e> Anyway I wasn't going to redistribute it under that name, I just wanted to remove the offending source code line to avoid running the software with a peculiar option that I feel might actually be construed as a legal agreement if one is unlucky.
19:05:31 <int-e> There *is* a fascinating legal puzzle here ;)
19:19:34 <korvo> Roko's Basilisk but the Basilisk only tortures people who don't namedrop Roko ~
19:25:07 <int-e> sounds more or less biblical
19:25:48 <int-e> (they demand a bit more than just namedropping though)
19:26:10 <int-e> (hmm, and actually put restrictions on namedropping)
19:26:54 <int-e> ("Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain")
19:27:11 <int-e> And yet I feel it's similar in spirit. :P
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19:59:28 <esolangs> [[Template:Stub-2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170756 * Hammy2 * (+176) Created page with "{| class="wikitable" | [[File:Logo.png|20px]]This article is a stub. That means it's tiny and <small>small</small>. Please give us more information to improve this article. |}"
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22:08:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Saji782015 * New user account
22:14:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170757&oldid=170718 * Saji782015 * (+194)
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23:54:58 <fizzie> Huh, weird. The Burlesque REPL has started printing "blsq: freeHaskellFunctionPtr: not for me, guv! 0x7f63d596ffd0" after every byte of input.
23:55:36 <fizzie> The shell still worked the other day, and the "blsq-golf" binary still does. :shrug:
23:56:04 <ais523> that looks a lot like an assert
23:57:21 <int-e> that's a cute one, hmm
00:01:06 <int-e> (the corresponding code is no longer in ghc's head, beautiful)
00:08:18 <int-e> Anyway. To call back into Haskell from C, the RTS creates a trampoline, and wraps the pointer to it into some heap object with a finalizer that is supposed to free the trampoline; that's freeHaskellFunctionPtr. As a plausibility check, that verifies that the first few bytes of the code match the generated trampolines. This check is failing.
00:08:24 <int-e> Smells like memory corruption?
00:13:17 <int-e> Let me find a link: https://github.com/ghc/ghc/blob/eeead9fc9bdb5e1add09a9c3aa40df9a77d9eac3/rts/adjustor/NativeAmd64.c#L327-L351
00:13:18 <fizzie> I guess it's borderline possible some library it links dynamically to has made some sort of non-ABI-compatible change.
00:14:03 <int-e> (not that it will help much)
00:14:06 <fizzie> (Judging from the file name, this was built with ghc-8.8.4, which was a while ago.)
00:14:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Signature]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170758&oldid=170649 * Hotcrystal0 * (+201)
00:15:31 <int-e> ./burlesque +RTS --info might tell you
00:15:48 <int-e> (or whatever the name is)
00:16:00 <fizzie> ,("GHC version", "8.8.4")
00:17:55 <int-e> if you want to try rebuilding it you might find https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/blsq.patch helpful
00:18:18 <int-e> (because manually chasing dependencies is a pain)
00:18:32 <b_jonas> memory corruption in glue code to expose a closure as a C function pointer without extra arguments? how jolly
00:19:28 <b_jonas> does the haskell FFI have a way to avoid this, by exposing closures as an explicit pair so the caller passes an argument and you can avoid the trampoline?
00:21:12 <sorear> Note that the value printed is supposed to be a *page* pointer, the fact that it doesn't end with 000 seems to indicate the pointer itself is corrupt
00:22:00 <fizzie> int-e: Thanks! Looks like I'd actually made https://0x0.st/onqe.cabal back when originally building it for myself in the "I don't know what I'm doing but it made it build" way. Will have to give rebuilding it a try when I get back to it.
00:23:54 <sorear> breakpoint on errorBelch and try to get a backtrace, maybe
00:24:18 <int-e> hope it works in `rr` so you can easily find the places that last modified it
00:25:19 <int-e> fizzie: Hah, you actually picked a meaningful version.
00:25:41 <fizzie> Can't right now, but just in case y'all want to keep on guessing, here's another observation: the pointer value it prints keeps steadily decreasing, every time by 40 bytes: https://0x0.st/Prvv.txt
00:25:47 <sorear> the offending value is a register, not memory, rr might help if the backtrace shows it was loaded from memory
00:26:10 <int-e> sorear: it dereferences that pointer, no?
00:26:44 <int-e> sorear: but right since you're saying that the pointer itself is corrupted
00:28:01 <sorear> 7ff... looks like a pointer into the stack, trying to free a local variable instead of what it points to while recursing with 40 byte frames?
00:29:41 <fizzie> 0x7ff24f42cfa8 (it's ASLR, so it's a new one) is in the mapping 7ff24f42c000-7ff24f42d000 r-xp 0000a000 00:1c 231402 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libffi.so.8.2.0
00:30:16 <fizzie> So not stack but code (r-xp) of a dynamically loaded library.
00:31:09 <int-e> Uh... why would this code be used if it's using libffi?
00:32:18 <fizzie> Dunno, but I do seem to have recently updated the libffi package on this system, so I imagine that's the immediate trigger for it now misbehaving.
00:32:20 <sorear> probably something in the dependencies is messed up so it's trying to use and not use libffi simultaneously
00:32:53 <int-e> Or maybe it used to get lucky and libffi trampolines looked that way, and now that stopped being the case?
00:33:50 <fizzie> (The changelog for the new version also mentions what changed was "Stop building with --disable-exec-static-tramp", which sounds quite trampoliney.)
00:34:09 <int-e> It's also funny that `grep -r ' guv'` finds *only* these adjustor related errors.
00:34:20 <sorear> ghc or libffi changelog?
00:36:20 <fizzie> (I haven't rebuilt the binary since 2020, and I don't _think_ any GHC runtime stuff gets linked to it dynamically, at least looking at ldd output.)
00:38:15 <int-e> IIUC this is the code that is supposed to be used when libffi is used for trampolines: https://github.com/ghc/ghc/blob/ghc-8.8/rts/Adjustor.c#L97-L111 ...note the absence of calling people 'guv'.
00:38:49 <int-e> I wanted https://github.com/ghc/ghc/blob/ghc-8.8.4-release/rts/Adjustor.c#L97-L111 (the release tag, not the branch) but the code is the same.
00:39:11 <fizzie> (UK, Ireland, chiefly London, informal) A form of address to a man, usually a stranger or a superior.
00:40:12 <fizzie> guv'nor: (UK, Ireland) An informal form of address to a man; see guv. This version is especially likely to be applied to the owner of a business or the landlord of a public house.
00:40:31 <int-e> Anyway. I don't have the whole story for this. There may be a hybrid scenario where libffi is used for some things and not for others.
00:40:51 <fizzie> Just to be clear, none of you need to continue thinking about this if you don't want to. :)
00:40:56 <int-e> And a bug that causes that old GHC runtime to confuse them.
00:41:05 <sorear> libffi static trampolines are 40 bytes on x86_64 without ENDBR so that's probably related
00:41:18 <int-e> fizzie: I am about done. :)
00:42:20 <int-e> fizzie: Because while it's fun to dig, there's little point in actually debugging a 5+ year old GHC version
00:43:07 <int-e> I will say that libffi changing what its trampolines look like sounds more palatable than manifesting a sudden memory corruption.
00:45:25 <int-e> b_jonas: Anyway, no I don't believe that there's a fat pointer alternative to those trampolines.
00:49:02 <int-e> fizzie: actually debugging would involve fun side quests like figuring out whether the ghc was a vanilla one or somehow patched by a distributor :)
00:53:17 <int-e> fizzie: FWIW the GHC version I used to build Burlesque recently is 9.10.3. So a slight bit behind. (But also way ahead of, say, Debian)
00:54:05 <int-e> I don't know whether 9.12 would break; I simply didn't try.
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04:08:11 <esolangs> [[Ruler function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170759&oldid=170752 * PkmnQ * (+158) /* Implementations */
04:33:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mikacat29 * New user account
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05:36:02 <esolangs> [[EsoFmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170760&oldid=140905 * None1 * (-2) /* Tags */
06:10:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Template:Stub-2]]": unnecessary template (we already have a stub template, and having just one template instead of two helps to keep a consistent style)
06:48:44 <ais523> hmm, there must be a large timezone difference – it's the morning for me and for APic
06:50:57 <korvo> Yeah. I'm in Oregon. It's nearly 11PM here.
06:51:59 <ais523> <int-e> IIUC the GPL *encourages* you to print license information in interactive programs but doesn't require it either. ← IIRC it requires it in cases where you modify a non-interactive program to become interactive, but it doesn't require it in other cases because the author of software can't violate their own copyright and if the author didn't add a way to do that themself, it'd be a burden on the downstream to make them do it instead
06:52:51 <ais523> so a "you must print a license notice" would be unenforceable, or not useful to enforce, in any case other than the noninteractive-modified-to-be-interactive case
06:54:09 <ais523> when I was young, there was advice recommending that Brits should use the internet in the morning, because in the British morning most Americans would be asleep and thus there would be less load on the sites that you were visiting
06:54:42 <korvo> You must not deprive downstream users of the right to be informed that they should cite GNU Parallel~
06:54:56 <ais523> nowadays, large sites have global CDNs and small sites can nearly always handle the load of humans accessing them, so the advice doesn't make sense any more
06:55:19 <ais523> (all sites are struggling with the AI scrapers but they don't have a reason to scrape only in USA datyime)
06:55:52 <ais523> I think SLOCCount also gives citing instructions, as part of its output?
06:56:28 <ais523> ah, just «Please credit this data as "generated using David A. Wheeler's 'SLOCCount'."»
06:56:52 <ais523> it has the inconsiderateness to use both common kinds of quote mark in the request
07:01:36 <ais523> <GNU Parallel citation notice FAQ> If you feel the benefit from using GNU Parallel is too small to warrant a citation, then prove that by simply using another tool.
07:02:05 <ais523> at least that is reasonable
07:02:12 <int-e> That doesn't negate the rights given to anyone under the GPL 3.
07:02:44 <int-e> If they wanted to enforce all this they'd have to drop that license and presumably the GNU label :P
07:03:25 <int-e> I agree with it on a moral level... but the execution is horrible and almost begging for exploits.
07:03:35 <ais523> I'm just impressed that this FAQ is 309 lines long
07:04:00 <ais523> fwiw I've never felt the need to use GNU Parallel – when I've been running things in parallel I've done it by hand
07:04:38 <korvo> Personally I like how GNU gives each different subproject an allowance for exactly one (1) quirk. GNU Parallel's got the notice. GNU recutils has the photo of the turtles fucking.
07:05:37 <ais523> glibc has more than one quirk
07:06:09 <korvo> The maintainer used to be the quirk.
07:06:12 <int-e> ais523: Like, I agree you should cite works if you rely on them academically. But when you make it sound like a contract matter it becomes a target for circumvention.
07:06:27 <lambdabot> *** "lawyer" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
07:06:27 <lambdabot> LAWYER, n. One skilled in circumvention of the law.
07:07:12 <int-e> Hmm maybe I'll figure out where that empty line comes from later this week.
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10:17:17 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170761&oldid=170192 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+350) added signature history
10:44:17 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170762&oldid=170761 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+21) fixed signature lol
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12:12:02 <esolangs> [[Meu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170763&oldid=170310 * Timm * (+7)
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14:51:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tautologylang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170765&oldid=154913 * Hammy * (+83)
14:55:35 <esolangs> [[CoffeeLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170766&oldid=159610 * Hammy * (+29) Smells like AI. The reason why I think this is because I found `backticks` being used for a code font (like with most AIs) instead of <code>.
15:00:20 <esolangs> [[Object-Oriented Brainfuck (Hammy)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170767&oldid=170755 * Hammy * (+177)
15:38:18 <esolangs> [[User:QuantumV]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170768&oldid=170051 * QuantumV * (-221)
15:38:51 <esolangs> [[User:QuantumV]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170769&oldid=170768 * QuantumV * (-87)
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19:41:55 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/PrUv.txt <- not winning any races, but at least the result's correct
20:08:12 <fizzie> In all its (lack of) glory: https://0x0.st/Pr0m.blsq
20:08:22 <fizzie> (Very much not golfed.)
20:12:13 <int-e> I hope you have a more structured version of this :P
20:21:42 <fizzie> Yeah, https://0x0.st/Pr0w.txt is how it looked while writing.
20:24:49 <int-e> `` dc <<<9o27190132379013256p
20:27:09 <int-e> interesting, I half expected that an alternating sum (a-b+c-d+e-f) might be shorter
20:28:40 <fizzie> It's pretty much a direct port of the Go solution, which did `a*e*i + b*f*g + c*d*h - c*e*g - b*d*i - a*f*h` there. I'm sure there's something more compact than 27190132379013256 9dgsi3co)pd3co)++^p.- to get the same result, but I've already used too much time on it.
20:29:33 <int-e> And also I see why 048 can't be first, but 408 was an option too :P
20:30:14 <fizzie> Well, 1 < 4, and sometimes that's enough to bump it one decimal digit longer. Probably not here.
20:31:07 <fizzie> Actually that probably should've just used the decimal form.
20:31:07 <int-e> > dcc<<<9i408156237246138057p
20:31:08 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: dcc :: cat b0 cVariable not in scope: i40815623724613...
20:31:15 <int-e> `` dcc <<<9i408156237246138057p
20:31:17 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: dcc: command not found
20:31:19 <int-e> `` dc <<<9i408156237246138057p
20:31:34 <fizzie> `blsq 156048237246138057XX
20:31:36 <HackEso> {1 5 6 0 4 8 2 3 7 2 4 6 1 3 8 0 5 7}
20:31:56 <fizzie> There's a shorthand notation for 10dg as XX, plus it doesn't need the space to distinguish it from being part of the number.
20:32:09 <fizzie> And base 9 is pretty close to base 10.
20:33:16 <fizzie> Yeah, that's shorter by one whole character.
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21:33:21 <KinuTheDragon> sorry, meant to ask "is the wiki down for anyone else, and is it possible to fix?"
21:33:30 <KinuTheDragon> previous msgs didn't go through after the first word it seems
21:40:19 <int-e> It's not just you. The usual suspect is scrapers overloading the singular server that hosts the wiki.
21:40:45 <int-e> It worked fine a few hours ago.
21:41:33 <korvo> KinuTheDragon: No worries. I'm just happy to put my improv-class skills to use.
21:41:51 <korvo> Ooh, there's a bluelink on that joke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes,_and_...
21:43:17 * int-e wonders how widely spread calling the people doing that Yes-Andys is.
21:43:26 <KinuTheDragon> To be honest, the reason for that issue was that I tried running my own hand-written IRC client that I made in Python and forgot to include the ":" in the message I was sending, lol
21:44:37 <KinuTheDragon> anyway, quoted that to the esolangs discord so they also know the situation
21:45:40 <korvo> KinuTheDragon: One of us! One of us!
21:45:47 <KinuTheDragon> the only reason i realized that it was down was because i was looking for information on 3-cell brainf*** so i could see how feasible it is to implement in I Wanna Lockpick
21:46:12 <korvo> I'm kind of surprised that handwritten IRC still works on Libera. I had thought that we now require secure connections. But I'm glad that you could make it.
21:46:32 <korvo> KinuTheDragon: Handwriting IRC clients is a good sign that you're in the right place.
21:46:41 <KinuTheDragon> that was how i sent the previous messages but i'm using hexchat right now
21:46:55 <KinuTheDragon> my client still has a long ways to go before it's actually good
21:47:22 <KinuTheDragon> heck, it crashed when you sent your "Yes, and is" message
21:47:48 <korvo> No worries. Eventually you'll get to the point where you're writing your client in your own language and you can't figure out if the bug is in the runtime or the compiler or the library.
21:48:24 <korvo> Ooh, that's a hidden achievement for today! Nice.
21:48:41 <int-e> korvo: I'm not sure it's required by Libera (but I do know that there's a channel mode for it), and in any you can leave the SSL wrapping to an external tool like socat :P
21:49:31 <int-e> (sticking out my tongue because I'm doing that for lambdabot)
21:50:49 <int-e> +S (capital) would be the "SSL users only" channel mode.
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21:55:39 <KinuTheDragon> i'm going to see if i can understand why exactly it was unhappy with that message
21:56:20 <KinuTheDragon2> on a slightly more interesting note, i can also do some neat color tricks with this
21:59:53 <KinuTheDragon> oh i see the issue! it's because when i check for parsing a host name, it doesn't account for something like an... i think it's ipv6? in my code
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22:00:42 <korvo> Oh, I have no idea how my hostname appears. I am using a relatively quirky client (catgirl) and I'm connected over IPv6 maybe? Definitely through an Yggdrasil tunnel which is always IPv6.
22:00:59 <korvo> I used to set it to a hostname or a cloak but I stopped caring.
22:03:21 <int-e> well you can look at your own /whois
22:04:00 <KinuTheDragon> masking it, where x is a hex digit, it's xxxx:xxxx:x:xxx::xxx:xxxx
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22:22:41 <fizzie> As people guessed, it was excessive crawling (20 reqs/s) again.
22:23:16 <fizzie> I do have alerts for it now, but I also don't pay attention good.
22:39:48 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170770&oldid=170740 * NTMDev * (+107)
22:39:57 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170771&oldid=170770 * NTMDev * (+6)
22:40:13 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170772&oldid=170771 * NTMDev * (+2)
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23:12:05 <esolangs> [[DTM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170773&oldid=170411 * Ytebbit * (+263) Delete request
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23:36:35 <b_jonas> Paper gift bag with christmas-themed decoration printed on it came with a small label saying "This gift bag is 100% recyclable once handles are removed.". That's a funny abuse of the phrase "100%".
23:41:06 <b_jonas> I wonder if I should use that as a future password of the month
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00:51:38 <esolangs> [[Vixen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170774&oldid=170511 * Corbin * (+182) Cite my blog post for the expression language.
00:59:35 <esolangs> [[Vixen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170775&oldid=170774 * Aadenboy * (+19) link
00:59:49 <esolangs> [[Vixen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170776&oldid=170775 * Aadenboy * (+0) wrong brackets
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02:28:25 <esolangs> [[ByteByteIfJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170777&oldid=170708 * Timm * (+9)
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04:17:07 <esolangs> [[Template:Timm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170778 * Timm * (+53) Created page with "''<small>this page page [[User:timm]]</small>''"
04:17:13 <esolangs> [[Spore]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170779 * Timm * (+899) Created page with "Spore is living cells code (if you want REAL cell as code... WHY!?) cell called Spore code has 2 parts CODE and CELLS the Cells part has JSON {"cell":{"name":"A","bonds":["B"]},"cell":{"name":"B","bonds":["A"]}} <big><big>== structure == * "cell":{ ** "name":" " ** (optio
04:17:45 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170780&oldid=170714 * Timm * (+10)
04:18:36 <esolangs> [[Template talk:Timm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170781 * Corbin * (+85) Created page with "Why? ~~~~"
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04:40:36 <esolangs> [[Spore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170782&oldid=170779 * Ais523 * (-9) pages aren't owned by a particular user you can describe who created a language but that doesn't necessarily have to be the same as the person who documented it
04:41:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Template:Timm]]": not a useful template it appears to be used to take ownership of articles but that isn't how wikis work
06:29:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gaosl * New user account
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08:34:40 <esolangs> [[Spore]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170783&oldid=170782 * JIT * (+24)
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10:17:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170784&oldid=164052 * Xysdd * (+34) add existing category Cellular automata
10:31:57 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170785&oldid=165531 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+247) ----
10:35:33 <esolangs> [[WhatLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170786&oldid=170785 * ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries * (+0) ----
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12:11:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:Junkshipp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170787&oldid=170754 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+461)
12:13:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Try to Take]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170788 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+267) Created page with "I dont really see how this could be uncomptable, a monus series seems perfectly computable, and as it is the sole operator, it should be computable. --~~~~"
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13:39:19 <fizzie> If you intersect a bunch of half-planes, and get a bounded but nonempty region, it's a (convex, I'd imagine) polygon. But if it goes all the way to infinity in some direction(s), can you still call that a polygon, or is there a different name for that sort of a thing?
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13:57:05 <sorear> the wiki article on polygonal tilings of the hyperbolic plane has a few examples of unbounded polygons, but they all have an _infinite_ number of sides so this isn't actually an answer
14:10:38 <esolangs> [[User:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170789&oldid=168632 * * (+128)
14:10:51 <esolangs> [[User:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170790&oldid=170789 * * (-60)
14:34:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Try to Take]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170791&oldid=170788 * PkmnQ * (+736)
14:36:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Try to Take]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170792&oldid=170791 * PkmnQ * (-97)
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15:00:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Try to Take]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170793&oldid=170792 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+226)
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16:44:56 <korvo> ♪ every morning there's a timeout when I try to load the latest edits to the site ♩ I know it's not my fault but still I wonder what has happened since it loaded last last night ♫
16:46:14 <korvo> Maybe that one's not known internationally so well. It's still fairly popular over here. https://genius.com/Sugar-ray-every-morning-lyrics
16:51:55 <fizzie> What's happened is presumably-AI-training-related crawling, again.
16:52:57 <fizzie> As rather well illustrated here: https://zem.fi/tmp/cpu.png
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16:54:09 <ais523> fizzie: my guess is that it isn't a polygon – it seems to have a similar relationship to polygons as horocycles do to circles
16:54:18 <fizzie> Or here: https://zem.fi/tmp/qps.png
16:54:31 <fizzie> Let's see if there's a pattern to the requests this time.
16:54:37 <ais523> i.e. polygon-like but you need to complete it with a line at infinity, which might not exist in your geometry
16:55:03 <ais523> wow, 5 req/s even at quiet times?
16:55:29 <fizzie> That's also almost certainly just automated traffic, which nowadays never lets off.
16:55:39 <fizzie> But if it hits non-expensive pages it's... fine-ish.
16:57:29 <fizzie> Well, as unexpected, the recent spike seems to be mostly /w/index.php with a `diff` parameter set.
16:58:11 <ais523> maybe we should restrict diffs and other expensive pages to logged-in users? that would be a copyright violation on some wikis but Esolang is public domain
17:00:18 <fizzie> I wanted to do that, but it was non-obvious how to make MediaWiki do it. It seemed like Extension:Lockdown might be one way, though.
17:01:10 <ais523> IIRC the usual technique is not on MediaWiki but on the webserver – you pattern-match the URL and look for a login cookie
17:01:30 <ais523> it doesn't need to be a *correct* login cookie, just anything that looks vaguely like one
17:01:41 <ais523> because most scrapers are unlikely to be using fake login cookies
17:01:50 <fizzie> Hmm. I think I did already do a cookie-based thing for the rate limiting that I added.
17:02:57 <fizzie> Yeah, it checks for the `cookie_esolang_wikiUserName` nginx variable.
17:04:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'd probably call it an infinite convex polygon, but I guess it's a matter of tastes
17:04:14 <fizzie> Just to confirm my understanding, is it so that if you're logged-in, there's always a cookie, and the "keep me logged in (uses cookies)" option on the login page (or whatever it was called) just affects whether it's a persistent one or not, or something?
17:04:33 <b_jonas> or maybe an unbounded convex polygon
17:05:46 <b_jonas> the poor esolangs server is busy again
17:12:38 <ais523> fizzie: there are two cookies involved, one is a session cookie that remembers (among other things) whether you are currently logged in and goes away when you close your browser, the other is a persistent-login cookie that is used to initialize the session cookie in a logged-in state
17:13:00 <ais523> the checkbox determines whether the second cookie is set or not
17:13:32 <ais523> the session cookie is set unconditionally for all logged-in users, and some logged-out users, but because it's temporary the cookie regulations don't apply to it
17:15:56 <ais523> I think cookie_esolang_wikiUserName is the persistnet one, which is only set if you enable the "keep me logged in"
17:16:49 <fizzie> I'd look at my cookies but the site is so unresponsive that's hard.
17:19:35 <ais523> fizzie: esolang_wiki_session is the one you want to filter on I think
17:19:41 <fizzie> Also it looks like most of those diff requests are already getting a zero-second 503 response from the pre-existing "CGI parameter order" filter (they do the diff=...&title=... thing), so maybe that's _not_ the expensive part, but I'm not sure how to extract CPU usage by URL from nginx, my monitoring isn't really set up for that (though I'm sure it's possible).
17:19:54 <ais523> (was slow to respond both for the same reason as you, and because I was looking up MediaWiki docs)
17:22:30 <fizzie> I guess I could assume that all those 499s (which are client timeouts) are the ones that are causing problems, since I'd imagine the 503s are cheap to serve.
17:24:33 <ais523> what are the 499s' URLs like?
17:26:12 <fizzie> Mostly oldid=, i.e., old revisions from history. I added that to the list, and the server seems reponsive again.
17:27:10 <korvo> I just got 429'd. Maybe I need to wait a moment?
17:27:34 <fizzie> That's what I return for "expensive" pages now. I may have misconfigured the logged-in check though, testing that now.
17:27:46 <ais523> fizzie: looks like I'm getting 429 for that even when logged-in
17:27:49 <korvo> Yep, I'm getting 429 on any diff.
17:28:40 <ais523> I've heard that 503 is better than 4xx errors against the scrapers, because it hides from them the fact that they were blocked
17:29:07 <ais523> seeing a 4xx just prompts them to change tactics, seeing a 503 they just assume they DOSed the site
17:29:22 <fizzie> 503 is what I used to return (with the CGI param filter), but I've also seen claims that 503 makes them just retry harder.
17:29:29 <fizzie> I can change it to a 503 though.
17:29:44 <fizzie> (And I'll try to fix the cookie check.)
17:30:02 <korvo> 410 might damage their data stores depending on which third-party libraries they're using, but won't do anything bad to browsers; in both cases 410 is merely cache invalidation.
17:30:49 <ais523> fizzie: so I heard that 503 and 4xx *both* make them retry harder, but with 503 they normally repeat the request unchanged and so you can filter it out again
17:31:03 <ais523> but all this is rumors / third-hand knowledge
17:31:35 <ais523> korvo: there's some evidence that at least some of them aren't using a library at all, but are just parsing URLs from the source code directly
17:31:54 <ais523> in that they've been observed visiting URLs that were present only in comments
17:33:00 <korvo> ais523: All of the above. We have to treat scraping as inherently heterogenous and disrespectful of standards. At the same time, we can't ignore that most scraping is e.g. curl-powered, so any quirks of curl are available as exploits for us to deploy in response.
17:33:55 <ais523> korvo: indeed – but it's also likely that the majority of scrapings are from a single source, just because the scraping is on such a large scale that it would be statistically unlikely for the two largest sources to have similar volumes
17:35:10 <fizzie> There's some sort of real weird behavior with `if` inside `location` in nginx that I really don't understand. I'll try to rewrite it as a map instead.
17:40:46 <fizzie> Okay, I think I got it right now: if you have the `esolang_wiki_session` cookie set, history pages and diffs should still work; otherwise, they should get a 503.
17:41:23 <fizzie> I'd really prefer an actual "you must be logged in to view this page" page, but it's better than not having _anything_ up.
17:41:54 <fizzie> (Also I guess I might be able to put in a custom text/plain 503 response.)
17:42:58 <fizzie> I did just get spuriously logged out, which I think has been a thing for ages, and has something to do with not having a properly configured persistent storage for PHP, but that's (hopefully) not a new regression.
17:44:11 <ais523> fizzie: OK, seems to be working now
17:46:06 <fizzie> The condition for an "expensive" page is _really_ loose ($request_uri matching ".*index.php.*(diff|oldid)=.*", and I didn't even escape the . because I can't tell if that's \. or \\. in a double-quoted map directive key), so false positives are quite possible. Note to self: revisit later.
17:49:58 <korvo> fizzie: I can see diffs again, thanks.
17:51:13 <ais523> there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main_page and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
17:51:30 <ais523> which are both page names inspired by the page names that spambots came up with
17:51:34 <ais523> but neither hit your regex
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19:29:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Frendoly * New user account
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19:38:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170794&oldid=170757 * Frendoly * (+47)
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19:39:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170795&oldid=170794 * Frendoly * (+86)
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19:42:21 <esolangs> [[WHO?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170796 * Frendoly * (+124) nope
19:42:30 <int-e> Uh admin stuff... do I see correctly that you now need to be logged in to see diffs?
19:42:56 <esolangs> [[User:Frendoly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170797 * Frendoly * (+32) thing
19:43:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:WHO?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170798 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+144) Created page with "what is this meant to be? --~~~~"
19:44:05 <ais523> int-e: yes, anti-scraper measure
19:44:41 <esolangs> [[User:Frendoly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170799&oldid=170797 * Frendoly * (+71) I LIKE MIKU
19:46:38 <esolangs> [[Unary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170800&oldid=166908 * Frendoly * (+39)
19:46:39 <esolangs> [[Schrodinger's fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170801&oldid=160988 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+751) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Schrodinger's fish programming language on GitHub, supplemented several page category tags, and improved the formatting.
19:48:03 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170802&oldid=169272 * Frendoly * (+2)
19:49:28 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170803&oldid=170802 * Frendoly * (-2) oops added space there
19:51:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:WHO?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170804&oldid=170798 * Frendoly * (+31)
19:51:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:WHO?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170805&oldid=170804 * Frendoly * (+20)
19:52:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:WHO?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170806&oldid=170805 * Frendoly * (+86)
19:52:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:WHO?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170807&oldid=170806 * Corbin * (+165)
19:53:35 <esolangs> [[Unary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170808&oldid=170800 * Corbin * (-39) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/170800|170800]] by [[Special:Contributions/Frendoly|Frendoly]] ([[User talk:Frendoly|talk]]): Undo vandalism.
19:54:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:WHO?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170809&oldid=170807 * Frendoly * (+163)
19:55:08 <esolangs> [[WHO?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170810&oldid=170796 * Frendoly * (-96)
19:55:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:WHO?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170811&oldid=170809 * Frendoly * (+126)
19:57:35 <esolangs> [[User:Frendoly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170812&oldid=170799 * Frendoly * (+12)
19:58:15 <esolangs> [[User:Frendoly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170813&oldid=170812 * Frendoly * (+33)
19:58:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Frendoly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170814 * Frendoly * (+104) Created page with "I like adachi rei ~~~~"
20:04:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:WHO?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170815&oldid=170811 * Frendoly * (+165)
20:05:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:WHO?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170816&oldid=170815 * Frendoly * (-31)
20:05:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[WHO?]]": not an esolang, and this wiki is not a social media/discussion site, please do not try to use it as one
20:05:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:WHO?]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: not an esolang, and this wiki is not a social media/discussion site, please do not try to use it as one
20:07:07 <ais523> (normally I don't delete talk pages when they contain deletion discussion, but this time I was largely aiming to delete the talk page)
20:12:32 <fizzie> I added a text/plain explanation of the situation into the special 503 response when it's triggered by the logged-in check.
20:12:36 <fizzie> Unfortunately due to one of those nginx quirks it now gets sent with *two* content-type headers (application/octet-stream, and then text/plain), but at least Chrome's okay with it. (It wasn't showing the message at all when it was just application/octet-stream, the default type.)
20:12:48 <fizzie> The "correct" way to do it is so fiddly I'll only attempt it when I get home.
20:13:25 <int-e> Let's see... FF is fine with it too.
20:13:51 <fizzie> I guess the normal HTTP semantics are for the last value to win when it's a single-valued header.
20:13:57 <fizzie> So maybe it's even allowed by the spec.
20:15:36 <ais523> fizzie: works in Firefox
20:15:48 <ais523> ah, was already tested
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20:23:29 <esolangs> [[Hexassembly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170817&oldid=170669 * Hammy * (+261)
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21:11:32 <esolangs> [[Topple/Topple 1/Source (C++)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170818 * H33T33 * (+8412) Created page with "[[Topple/Topple 1|Back]] <pre> #include <iostream> #include <fstream> #include <cstdlib> #include <cctype> #include <string> #include <ctime> #define CLEAR() printf("\e[1;1H\e[2J"); typedef struct{ char name; char val; }var; void read_fil
21:12:26 <esolangs> [[Topple/Topple 1/Source (C++)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170819&oldid=170818 * H33T33 * (+29)
21:14:58 <esolangs> [[Topple/Topple 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170820&oldid=169788 * H33T33 * (+5) Topple 1 (C++ Edition) source code
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22:41:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Try to Take]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170821&oldid=170793 * PkmnQ * (+506)
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23:28:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170822&oldid=170685 * Buckets * (+13)
23:28:22 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170823&oldid=170686 * Buckets * (+12)
23:29:08 <esolangs> [[Tabler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170824 * Buckets * (+2675) Created page with "Tabler is An Esoteric programming language Created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2025, Tabler was Created after [[-1]] And also Created to be A Pure-table Esolang. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | {| class="wikitable" |- | style="background-color:black;
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00:39:30 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170825&oldid=170690 * Tommyaweosme * (-4472) Replaced content with "khan academy addict: don't send help"
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01:42:08 <esolangs> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170826&oldid=163936 * Unlimiter * (-4)
04:58:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Try to Take]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170827&oldid=170821 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+219)
05:40:20 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170828&oldid=170762 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-2669) clean up user page by removing the user page
05:49:06 <esolangs> [[NameError]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170829&oldid=137451 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+79) /* Command */
05:49:50 <esolangs> [[NameError]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170830&oldid=170829 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-79) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/170829|170829]] by [[Special:Contributions/JHSHernandez-ZBH|JHSHernandez-ZBH]] ([[User talk:JHSHernandez-ZBH|talk]])
05:57:57 <esolangs> [[NameError]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170831&oldid=170830 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+5) /* Command */ command -> program, title change command to semantic
06:33:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Uiua]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170832 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+665) /* Uiua could possibly be created earlier? */ new section
06:44:41 <esolangs> [[UM-32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170833&oldid=79748 * Xysdd * (+0) move stub to top
06:55:14 <esolangs> [[Mascarpone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170834&oldid=167982 * Xysdd * (+1) /* Stacks */
07:48:55 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170835&oldid=168328 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+1634) draft a change to the [[Uiua]] page (change is still a stub lol)
08:11:59 <esolangs> [[2I1IF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170836&oldid=166717 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+52) /* Concept */
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08:38:37 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170837&oldid=170430 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+146) /* Semantics */
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08:48:41 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170838&oldid=170837 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+19) /* Semantics */
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08:51:30 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170839&oldid=170838 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+4) /* Examples */
08:54:42 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170840&oldid=170839 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* Semantics */
08:56:36 <esolangs> [[PythOwO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170841&oldid=166934 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+46) cleaned up page a little and added references
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09:22:55 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170842&oldid=170840 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+3) /* Semantics */
09:23:50 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170843&oldid=170842 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-4) /* Syntax */
09:27:58 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170844&oldid=170843 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Semantics */
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11:11:49 <esolangs> [[Alivefish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170845&oldid=98412 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+35) Supplemented the page category tag Deadfish derivatives.
11:12:35 <esolangs> [[Schrodinger's fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170846&oldid=170801 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+34) Supplemented the page category tag Deadfish derivatives.
11:40:53 <esolangs> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170847&oldid=160812 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+20)
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12:33:58 <esolangs> [[User:Somefan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170848&oldid=150582 * Somefan * (-32) reformat casing and reword lead section
13:11:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170849&oldid=170127 * C++DSUCKER * (+235)
13:16:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170850&oldid=170849 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+172)
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13:43:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gameplayer 667 * New user account
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14:51:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andreasjansson * New user account
14:51:50 <esolangs> [[NameError]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170851&oldid=170831 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* semantics */
14:53:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170852&oldid=170795 * Andreasjansson * (+160) Introduce Andreas
14:54:35 <esolangs> [[User:Andreasjansson]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170853 * Andreasjansson * (+38) Created page with "I'm Andreas. github.com/andreasjansson"
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15:34:52 <esolangs> [[Topple/Topple 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170854&oldid=170820 * H33T33 * (+272)
15:36:06 <esolangs> [[Macro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170855&oldid=128746 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+9) stub/underspecified
15:45:19 <esolangs> [[BF (BestCoder)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170856&oldid=165054 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+8071) Supplemented further information in the prolog, reformatted the command table, added an interpreter implementation, and introduced a further page category tag.
15:51:02 <esolangs> [[User:Somefan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170857&oldid=170848 * Somefan * (-14) revert a bit
16:14:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 19ty84 * New user account
16:18:44 <esolangs> [[Topple/Topple 1/Source (C++)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170858&oldid=170819 * H33T33 * (+20)
16:18:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170859&oldid=170852 * 19ty84 * (+176)
16:20:21 <esolangs> [[Topple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170860&oldid=167251 * H33T33 * (-99)
16:21:29 <esolangs> [[User:19ty84]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170861 * 19ty84 * (+89) Created page with "I'm 19ty84 or you can call me XSsMC. https://github.com/19ty84 https://ricky-zhang.com/"
16:22:37 <esolangs> [[Topple/Topple 1.1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170862&oldid=167259 * H33T33 * (-2)
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16:31:08 <esolangs> [[ObjectFlux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170863&oldid=125852 * Z Z * (-22) Discontinued notice + link to new one.
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17:36:31 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170864&oldid=170822 * Ytebbit * (-10) /* D */
17:39:20 <esolangs> [[Topple/Topple 1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170865&oldid=170854 * H33T33 * (+0)
17:52:50 <esolangs> [[Topple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170866&oldid=170860 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-365) /* Computational Class */ I couldn't find any proof that its was TC, so imma delete it. I encourage someone prove it TC though,
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19:04:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:Xaxa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170867&oldid=105211 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+173)
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19:37:34 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170868&oldid=166360 * Corbin * (+45) Add the DOI for the CAM. It's in Cammy's source code, from cammy/cammylib/cam.py.
20:15:02 <esolangs> [[Topple/Topple 1/Source (C++)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170869&oldid=170858 * H33T33 * (+3)
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22:51:04 <esolangs> [[Kana]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170870 * LEOMOK * (+8181) Created page with "'''Kana''' is a programming language created by [[User:LEOMOK]]. It is a prefix-notation language which uses Japanese kana symbols as instructions. == Literals == In Kana, there are four data types: numbers, strings, booleans and lists. === Numbers === Numbers can be inte
22:58:59 <esolangs> [[Kana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170871&oldid=170870 * LEOMOK * (+862)
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23:00:27 <esolangs> [[Kana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170872&oldid=170871 * LEOMOK * (+112)
23:00:41 <esolangs> [[Kana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170873&oldid=170872 * LEOMOK * (-9)
23:04:39 <esolangs> [[Kana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170874&oldid=170873 * LEOMOK * (+212)
23:09:55 <esolangs> [[Kana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170875&oldid=170874 * LEOMOK * (+159)
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23:15:19 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170876&oldid=170835 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-21704) Remove old versions of RSI0 and RSI1, they already have [[RSI0|their own]] [[RSI1|pages]] and you can check version history anyway
23:16:46 <esolangs> [[Kana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170877&oldid=170875 * LEOMOK * (+237)
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01:11:52 <Sgeo> The existence of id :: Void -> Void shows that in Haskell's type system, 0^0=1. Its math operators agree. What languages do we have in here, I wonder if any disagree
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01:21:07 <ais523> <Sgeo> The existence of id :: Void -> Void shows that in Haskell's type system, 0^0=1. ← it's hard to imagine a type system that includes an uninhabited type but *doesn't* allow defining the identity function on it
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01:24:20 <ais523> the equivalent of x^0 is easy to define, it's absurd (i.e. a function with type Void -> a) – so the x^0==1 identity, when translated into type system terms, effectively states that there is exactly one correct way to define absurd
01:25:02 <ais523> meanwhile, the equivalent of 0^x is a function with type a -> Void – for most choices of a there are no such functions, but for inhabited a such functions do exist (so you get 0^x == 0 except when x == 0)
01:26:17 <Sgeo> I feel like someone somewhere has tried to figure out what negative and fractional types are. And I'm suddenly now curious about imaginary types
01:27:30 <sorear> well -1/12 = 1 + 2 + 3 + ...
01:28:09 <ais523> * for uninhabited a such functions do exist
01:28:59 <Sgeo> I assume there are unsigned infinite amount of functions from a negative type to Void
01:30:42 <ais523> I've thought about negative types in the past because the joke esolang TURKEY BOMB defines one (without specifying how it actually works)
01:31:17 <ais523> but TURKEY BOMB's is more of a fractional type, I think (it has more than 0 but fewer than 1 possibility)
01:31:58 <ais523> OK, so the simplest type is 1/2, which is a -1-bit integer – if you store it together with an 8-bit integer the resulting type fits in 7 bits
01:33:10 <ais523> 2^-1 == 1/2, so a function from the type -1 to bool should return a -1-bit integer
01:33:45 <ais523> wait, no, it returns a bool, the -1-bit integer is how you represent all such functions
01:34:34 <ais523> my guess is that because -1^1 = -1, -1^2 = 1, -1^3 = -1, etc., it is impossible to come up with a sensible definition of this
01:35:47 <ais523> how does it make sense for a function a -> b (for varying a and fixed b) to be either definable or antidefinable based on whether a contains an even number of possible values or not?
01:44:43 <sorear> non-classical logic, maybe
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03:35:00 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Mirror to Esolangist's Chess Games/Xiangqi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170878 * PrySigneToFry * (+1213) Created page with "This is the scene of a Chinese chess match. You can freely add, modify, or delete content related to the symbols. = Notations = Red pieces are represented by lowercase le
03:49:59 <b_jonas> "<ais523> it's hard to imagine a type system that includes an uninhabited type but *doesn't* allow defining the identity function on it" => C++ constexpr begs to differ, I think you can't define a constexpr function with an uninhabited parameter type, or maybe you can define one only using templates, I'm not sure how this works
06:51:46 <esolangs> [[Xaxa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170879&oldid=105195 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+11) /* Commands */ I can see ^ is 0 indexed
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08:02:16 <esolangs> [[Lacc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170880&oldid=170603 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0)
08:04:37 <esolangs> [[Lacc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170881&oldid=170880 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+12) /* Command set */
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08:35:33 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170882&oldid=156410 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-40) /* Find zero to the right (invalid) */ its not actually invalid, as ive Benn told
08:36:54 <ais523> hmm, I'm wondering if the main difference between paradigms is with respect to things like "in imperative languages, loops desugar into goto, but in functional languages, loops desugar into recursion"
08:37:10 <ais523> this isn't *quite* objective but seems to be a hard-line qualitative difference
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08:56:23 <b_jonas> I can believe the latter, but I think there can be imperative languages where loops desugar into recursion
09:03:22 <ais523> hmm, maybe this is a consequence thing
09:03:57 <ais523> along the lines of "paradigms are basically a set of design decisions that are commonly made together, people who are designing an imperative language will therefore usually design it with jump-based loops"
09:06:13 <b_jonas> I mean, I admit that I'm trying to design Enchain to have if-gotos as the main way to make a loop, so in that respect I'm guilty.
09:06:40 <b_jonas> but I don't think that's the only possibility for an imperative language
09:07:54 <b_jonas> also we were recently talking about BASIC, and in at least some versions of BASIC, NEXT doesn't desugar into a GOTO because it can jump to different FOR statements depending on the path you arrived from
09:08:29 <b_jonas> (it also doesn't desugar to recursion though)
09:10:24 <b_jonas> in intercal it's not clear what kind of loop you want to desugar, it doesn't have sugar that tastes exactly like a loop
09:11:33 <b_jonas> come from mostly desugars into goto, but next doesn't
09:17:42 <b_jonas> oh yeah, TeX. I think TeX counts as imperative with loops desugaring to recursion
09:18:37 <ais523> NEXT from INTERCAL is interesting because it's unclear from the NEXT itself whether it's a subroutine call or a jump – it's subsequent code that retroactively decides for it
09:19:31 <ais523> although INTERCAL feels very imperative, partly because functions don't have "official" arguments (you have to use dynamic scoping to simulate it)
09:21:01 <ais523> hmm… using CREATE on operators, INTERCAL has functions which are close to first-class (and with arguments and a return), just with a weird calling syntax (but they work like C function pointers in that they are not closures)
09:21:02 <b_jonas> hehe, that's true to scan as well
09:21:10 <b_jonas> it has functions but they don't take arguments
09:21:38 <ais523> the basic idea is that you CREATE an operator and immediately use it in the next line, as a way of doing a function call
09:21:56 <ais523> and because C-INTERCAL supports computed CREATE you can do this with a computed line number
09:22:00 <b_jonas> though that's only because it's incomplete and abandonned, the functions should have arguments, I just never implemented that
09:30:30 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170883&oldid=167629 * PrySigneToFry * (+10)
09:34:51 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170884&oldid=169704 * PrySigneToFry * (+29)
10:10:21 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170885&oldid=170883 * I am islptng * (+76)
10:10:44 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170886&oldid=170885 * I am islptng * (-2)
10:11:47 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170887&oldid=170844 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Semantics */
10:15:27 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170888&oldid=170887 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-3) /* Semantics */
10:27:48 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170889&oldid=170888 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+226) /* Examples */
10:29:12 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170890&oldid=170889 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-2)
10:33:48 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170891&oldid=170890 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+68) /* Examples */
10:42:28 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170892&oldid=170891 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+32) /* Syntax */
10:49:32 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170893&oldid=170892 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* Examples */
10:57:56 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170894&oldid=170886 * Hammy * (+40) /* Commands */
10:59:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Kava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170895&oldid=148397 * Hammy * (+357)
11:04:56 <esolangs> [[Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170896&oldid=170613 * C++DSUCKER * (+9)
11:09:08 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170897&oldid=170893 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1537)
11:10:19 <sorear> "it's subsequent code that retroactively decides for it" riscv JAL says hi
11:10:54 <sorear> there's a fairly natural variant of SSA where basic blocks take named arguments instead of having phi nodes, and all jumps are syntactically tail recursion
11:20:17 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170898&oldid=170897 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+17) /* Examples */
11:25:45 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170899&oldid=170898 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+38) /* Examples */
11:28:11 <ais523> when I think of SSA, I think of the version that uses arguments rather than phi nodes – but I also think of it as using jumps rather than tail calls (there's nothing fundamentally strange to me about a jump that has arguments)
11:34:21 <ais523> single static assignment
11:35:29 <ais523> it's a coding style in which all variables are assigned a value on declaration and can never have that value change, but the name SSA is normally only used in cases where that is done in a compiler's intermediate representation
11:42:09 <b_jonas> oh, so that's why you want tail recursion
11:42:51 <b_jonas> and you might need that not only for loops but for conditionals
12:29:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Choas * New user account
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13:33:00 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170900&oldid=170894 * PrySigneToFry * (+253)
13:33:50 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170901&oldid=170900 * PrySigneToFry * (+26)
13:34:50 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170902&oldid=170901 * PrySigneToFry * (-63) Oops!
14:00:06 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170903&oldid=170902 * Hammy * (+73) /* Commands */
14:08:16 <esolangs> [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170904&oldid=81927 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1534) Introduced an examples section, comprehending as its incipial and aefauld member a single letter printer, supplemented a hyperlink to my implementation of the language on GitHub, and altered the Unimplemented page category tag to Impleme
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14:46:38 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170905&oldid=170903 * PrySigneToFry * (+211)
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16:00:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170906&oldid=170859 * Choas * (+182) /* Introductions */ my intro
16:28:35 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170907&oldid=170899 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+37) /* Examples */
16:49:23 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170908&oldid=170907 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+60) /* Semantics */
16:55:25 <esolangs> [[Blur]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170909 * Choas * (+9590) create Blur page for release 0.1.0
16:57:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170910&oldid=170864 * Choas * (+11) /* B */ Blur
17:16:14 <esolangs> [[Blur]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170911&oldid=170909 * Corbin * (+29) Tag slop.
17:16:56 <korvo> I'm not going to bother putting my evidence on-wiki anymore. In this case, the reference implementation is Claude-generated and contains a WIKI.md which has the same contents as the article. The article itself still has some memetic tells, too.
17:20:30 <sorear> somewhat unfortunate that the IRC bot now posts links that are useless without wiki accounts
17:23:49 <korvo> The curse of Mediawiki. It's not a cheap wiki to operate. It's no accident that most Mediawikis are run by one of like three groups.
17:42:09 <fizzie> Heh, I didn't think of those links.
17:43:57 <fizzie> Honestly I think they might as well just link to the page instead of the specific diff, but it doesn't have any settings, it's just "the IRC format".
17:47:12 <int-e> hmm though there's a risk that the numerical ids bypassed the problem of encoding unicode characters?
17:47:46 <HackEso> [U+25E7 SQUARE WITH LEFT HALF BLACK] [U+25E8 SQUARE WITH RIGHT HALF BLACK]
17:52:03 <fizzie> Well, you could have a numeric-ID link to a page as well; https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?curid=24423 in that case. Though it does make more sense for a recent changes feed to link to the change, this whole crawling thing is just unfortunate.
18:03:51 <esolangs> [[2 poets, 1 poem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170912&oldid=139833 * Hammy2 * (+111)
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19:44:45 <ais523> Blur is a good example of a language somehow missing its *own* point
19:46:16 <ais523> fwiw, the AI tells in the article itself, while present, are much weaker than in most AI-generated articles, which makes it a better article – at least I get a clear idea of how the language is specified from the description
19:47:34 <korvo> It's Claude. We're most used to detecting ChatGPT. The difference is that ChatGPT's RL is RLHF while Claude uses their own in-house RL called "Constitutional AI". Instead of human feedback, RL is evaluated by a policy drafted and verified by multiple smaller bots.
19:47:35 <ais523> although the scope of "sharp for"'s unblurring is unclear when you use it for something more complicated than a loop over a range
19:48:20 <ais523> the language would be much better without sharp for and without the 1000-iteration limit on regular for loops
19:48:50 <ais523> but maybe whoever generated the language didn't think of that
19:49:18 <ais523> (we've had similar issues in human-wrItten languages before, e.g. Java2K's main gimmick has no interesting way of working around it, you just have to write the code multiple times and hope at least one copy works)
19:50:36 <ais523> anyway, part of my thoughts are that the easier it is to tell that an article is AI-generated, the sloppier it is – slop can be considered undesirable either because LLM use in general is considered undesirable or because it's hard to read and not very good at conveying information
19:51:17 <ais523> but if the article doesn't look AI-generated then it's usually conveying information quite well (because if it weren't, you would be able to tell it were AI based on that), so the second reason why it might be undesirable is less significant
19:52:12 <ais523> of course, this may well have the usual AI problem of the documentation not really matching the implementation at all (I haven't checked), but the documentation does at least describe an internally consistent (if unfortunately designed) esolang
19:52:17 <korvo> I don't think that the user came up with the idea for the language directly. I think that they prompted Claude with something like, "What are some ideas for a chaotic esoteric programming language?"
19:52:42 <ais523> the core idea is interesting, though
19:52:52 <ais523> at least from the TCness proof point of view
19:53:18 <ais523> the restriction is fairly easy to work around for booleans, but finitely many booleans is not enough
19:53:21 <korvo> They don't mention inigos/exponential decay or Welford's algorithm, so I don't think that they were doing any of the background research that might lead one to want this sort of language feature. They certainly don't understand that an efficient implementation would have to *summarize history*; Claude's implementation keeps full history instead.
19:54:10 <ais523> you could also work around the restriction by allocating continuously in order to avoid ever having to assign to a variable more than once
19:54:21 <korvo> And the issues around loops suggest that they don't know about probabalistic programming and how that's normally solved via sampling strategies.
19:54:48 <ais523> actually, there's a neat reverse summarisation trick, but it only works if you have arbitrary-precision rationals
19:56:01 <ais523> <korvo> They don't mention inigos/exponential decay or Welford's algorithm, so I don't think that they were doing any of the background research that might lead one to want this sort of language feature. ← I think this is expecting too much, human-created esolangs also often don't know the mathematical basis and are naively implemented
19:57:29 <ais523> e.g. look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Feed_the_Chaos, I actually *did* the research into implementing that in an optimised way, but I didn't write an interpreter that uses it
19:58:25 <korvo> ais523: I'm not trying to be mean. I'm genuinely trying to understand what they did. I know that asking them "How did you make this?" is futile.
19:59:08 <ais523> korvo: from my point of view, what I'm trying to understand is "is this the sort of article we want on the wiki or not" and I don't know the answer, so I'm exploring subquestions
20:00:11 <korvo> Oh, sure. I mean, yes. But we'd delete it if it were a copyright violation. The policy wags the enforcement.
20:01:03 <korvo> LLMs are simulators. Claude will simulate an entire menagerie of computer-science theories if given space and time. It will even implement them in code. But that doesn't imply Naur-style theory building.
20:02:14 <ais523> even bad ideas can be inspirational sometimes: IMAGERY is clearly ridiculous but it got me thinking
20:03:19 <ais523> specifically the rule 110 example: I was trying to work out an esolang that, given a picture of a 1D cellular automaton history, would expand it to produce more history lines (without being told what the automaton actually is)
20:03:23 <ais523> an that would give you a TC language
20:04:45 <korvo> Sure. And I won't pressure you into deleting this or any other slop page. I just want to stress: Claude doesn't have bad ideas. Claude doesn't have ideas. We don't actually have Conway's Law and etc. without Naur's theory-building; we do actually need *people* to have the ideas at hand.
20:07:17 <ais523> korvo: so I like to compare LLMs to random number generators
20:08:02 <ais523> if you ask an LLM to try to find an input that makes a program crash, this is to me conceptually similar to fuzz-testing, except that the LLM weights its attempts in a way that might or might not be useful
20:08:53 <ais523> on codegolf stack exchange, we were debating a couple of situations in which a program had defined all possible esolangs (by seedably generating them randomly, sort-of like Seed but it generates the interpreter rather than the program)
20:09:04 <korvo> afl also does weights. Or I suppose it does weighted paths. It rewards itself for exploring new paths, for finding crashy paths, and maybe one or two other scenarios.
20:09:39 <ais523> do those languages exist or not? (at the time, it mattered for CGCC rules) My argument was "the language is created at the point that a human sees it and decides that it is interesting"
20:10:10 <ais523> all the possible languages were there, but the creative step is deciding which particular ones are worth investigating
20:11:00 <ais523> and I think LLM-generated "ideas" are similar: the LLM isn't having an idea, but sometimes its output inspires an idea in a human reading it, now the idea has been had (even if it didn't occur organically)
20:11:28 <korvo> Tangent: https://lobste.rs/s/oysxby/functional_genetic_programming is probably the best paper for folks wanting to use ML to generate functional programs. It covers rewards, genes, tournament schedules, all sorts of goodies.
20:11:48 <korvo> Well, yeah. It's inception.
20:13:06 <korvo> The LLM is a pile of memes. We shake it and ask it for some memes, giving it a seed to grow from. It gives us likely memes. We don't really think of the output as memetic because the model's large enough to have learned grammar.
20:13:18 <ais523> korvo: something that's really been fascinating me recently is "there have been a lot of impressive-sounding claims for what LLMs can do recently – how many of the impressive LLM results could be reproduced using a smart fuzzer instead?"
20:14:02 <korvo> The problem is that those memes are average, laundered, corporate-approved. What is OpenAI going to tell you besides blandness that is, in terms of sentiment, neutral-to-slightly-positive about OpenAI?
20:14:24 <ais523> it seems to me like many apparent LLM successes can be explained using a mixture of fuzzing and plagiarism, but I'm interested in whether they contribute anything beyond that
20:14:30 <korvo> ais523: It's all search. That's a Bitter Sublesson.
20:14:49 <ais523> korvo: which meaning of "search" are you using here?
20:15:43 <korvo> TBH I'm not even seeing the successes. LLMs are just larger variants of pre-existing language models. I'm worried by the fact that people seem to think that these outputs are good instead of average.
20:16:20 <korvo> ais523: Like, *the* meaning. Search trees. Search spaces. All verification is proof search, which is grammatical tree search.
20:16:27 <ais523> (I have been thinking about the bitter lesson quite a bit, though – the original version of it seems plausible but it seems to have been misinterpreted by many AI companies, e.g. they seem to be interpreting it as "more training data will make the AI smarter" and I think that's neither true nor a correct interpretation)
20:17:03 <ais523> korvo: I have been using "search-based AI" to distinguish it from the neutral network / machine learning style of AI
20:17:11 <ais523> using the term, that is
20:17:32 <korvo> Almost nobody's actually read the Bitter Lesson. I happen to know it by heart, mostly because I'm tired of people getting it wrong. In particular, all it can really tell you is that you're working at too-high a level of abstraction and you'll never make artificial humans that way, which is not what AI researchers ever want to hear.
20:17:55 <ais523> korvo: I read it (because I saw people talking about it and decided to go to the original source)
20:18:20 <ais523> I am not sure whether it's right or not, but suspect that if it is right it is narrow in application
20:19:15 <ais523> in any case, I think it's very debatable whether any AI output is actually good – but indisputable that a large number of people believe it to be good which is an interesting fact on its own to analyze
20:19:17 <korvo> I don't see a big difference at a high level. Like, I believe NNAEPR: Neural Nets Are Essentially Polynomial Regression. But also, LLM interpretability tells us that Transformers can count how many characters are left in a line and how many characters each token will cost, as well as other sorts of counters. Also they evolve trigonometric tools and convolutional tools.
20:20:02 <korvo> And the Bitter Lesson papers over all of that neatly by simply saying that it's Moore's Law or equivalent scaling to blame. It's not the fault of the researchers; rather, it's more like good software engineering practice is also good ML practice. Update your machines and forward-port your code to newer libraries.
20:21:04 <korvo> Biologists would tell us that it's an example of supernormal stimulus; the LLM stimulates us like a chat converation would, but *moreso*.
20:21:29 <ais523> one thing I've been looking at recently is double-dummy solving in bridge: this is a game tree search with an objectively correct answer, and modern dummy double solvers can search the entire tree in a second or two
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20:21:51 <ais523> but that requires lots of optimisations to make it work, a naive approach (even using good algorithms) can take tens of seconds or a few minutes
20:22:38 <korvo> My analysis here (https://awful.systems/post/5000835) is that humans prefer memes to original thoughts; if given the chance to think for ourselves or to be part of a hivemind, most humans prefer the latter. I could speculate that it's easier or conditioned or cultural or etc. but the fact that it happens is sufficient for me for now.
20:22:46 <ais523> just leaving this to Moore's Law is a possibility, *but* there are use cases where it would need to be several orders of magnitude faster (milliseconds or microseconds) and I'm wondering whether it would make sense to try to develop those optimisations
20:23:14 <ais523> korvo: I agree that is true but also suspect that I am an exception
20:25:06 <korvo> I think some optimizations do need to be engineered. Parallelizing, for example. Moore's Law and its friends are really only good explanations over multiple decades, not over one or two years.
20:28:54 <korvo> ais523: BTW, I'm not going to pull it up, but you might find the Bitter Lesson examples compelling. Chess is one of them IIRC. In a real sense, the biggest difference between a modern image classifier like CLIP and the 1950s image classifiers is the number of pixels and neurons and features and categories; the decades have given us compute and RAM.
20:29:50 <korvo> "Deep Learning" really just the fact that in the 1990s we could afford more than one layer of neurons. It turns out that vision-shaped models, like image classifiers, *always* develop the first couple layers into general-purpose convolutional tools; but we didn't know that then.
20:30:27 <ais523> korvo: I think the chess example is interestingly clarifying: improvements in search depth made position evaluation less important (but it was still pretty important), but things like observing symmetries gives a permanent speedup that isn't lost to the bitter lesson
20:32:41 <korvo> ais523: I'm trying to remember which grandmaster said, "I only look ahead one move -- but it's a really good one!" We're starting to understand that, to a reasonable degree, a large Markov model will have internal predictions for multiple subsequent tokens, even though those predictions could be spoiled by a surprising token.
20:33:36 <korvo> Position evaluation is really important, but it requires more than one scalar. Say, a vector space with multiple scalars for multiple facets. Say, a 180k-dimensional latent space with an embedding that has learned quite a few simple data-manipulating circuits~
20:34:25 <korvo> A *really good* lookahead, even only one move, might as well be a lookahead that speculates on more than one move. I have no idea how to square this with traditional ways of thinking about chess other than to suggest that humans also do tree search by default.
20:35:07 <ais523> korvo: chess is interesting in a way because a really good neural network evaluator can play pretty well without any lookahead, *and* a really good lookahead algorithm can play at above grandmaster level even with a seriously flawed evaluator
20:35:38 <ais523> but the current top chess engines combine both, and thus only other top chess programs can realistically compete against them
20:36:02 <ais523> it's kind-of unclear what half of this situation the bitter lesson is supposed to apply to
20:36:12 <korvo> Yeah. More generally and topologically, we can't summarize an arc/sector of a hyperbolic system just by looking at it and describing what we see when zoomed out and blurry.
20:37:08 <korvo> Maybe it's *wrong* to use a (pseudo?) Euclidean embedding for LLMs. There's too much detail to capture.
20:37:58 <korvo> Or maybe intelligence (whatever it may be) is inherently emergent from composition and a hybrid engine is always going to have a higher capacity for benchmark performance.
20:38:20 <ais523> the situation with top Go engines is even more interesting – they play much better than the top humans in almost every respect, but there is a counterstrategy using a series of terrible moves that the engines have serious trouble beating
20:38:28 <korvo> But, like, that's part of what makes the lesson so Bitter; time spent wondering about this is time spent not upgrading hardware or OS or libraries.
20:39:33 <ais523> the basic issue is that one important strategic factor in Go is the number of empty intersections next to a connected group of stones, and you beat the engine by trying to engineer it into creating a group of stones that's approximately annulus-shaped
20:40:12 <ais523> the developers have theorised that their neural networks are really bad at counting the number of intersections next to an annulus because it doesn't have a clear end to count from
20:40:37 <ais523> (and even adding this sort of group to the training data hasn't helped much)
20:44:11 <korvo> Maybe it just takes longer than we think. Like, up until last year, we weren't even using the correct projections for how long gradient descent takes to get good, and that's something that was proven to be good (and biologically analogous to the Hebbian principle) a long time ago.
20:44:27 <korvo> Or maybe it takes a bigger network than we think. Like, humans aren't perfect at Go either.
20:45:45 <esolangs> [[8ial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170913&oldid=169517 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Syntax */
20:45:46 <ais523> (to clarify, because I wasn't explicit: the errors made by the Go engines in that situation are clearly related to miscounting the intersections)
20:46:45 <korvo> Oh! Very surprising and curious.
20:50:21 <b_jonas> ais523: so what happened to that? did the devs manage to improve the baduk engines to at least counter that one strategy? how did the arms race continue?
20:51:03 <b_jonas> it's not clear to me if there'd be just a very few specific strategies found and after that the engine becomes unbeatable by humans, or if there'd be new strategies found for countering each engine for a long time
21:01:59 <ais523> b_jonas: so I don't have up-to-the-minute information on this, but the last time I checked, they added a lot of patterns using that strategy to the training data, and the humans had fought back by modifying the inside of the annulus slightly so that it didn't match the patterns in the training data any more
21:02:16 <ais523> I assume that could very easily get into an arms race but don't know the result
21:20:44 <b_jonas> I mean if the problem were really that the neural nets are "bad at counting the number of intersections next to an annulus because it doesn't have a clear end to count from" that sounds like the devs could help that specifically
21:21:50 <ais523> a "this is the number of intersections next to the big annulus-shaped group" input? the problem is that big annulus-shaped groups don't normally arise naturally, so it's unclear what should be done in cases where there are none of them, or two
21:22:00 <ais523> and you would have to somehow define them objectively
21:22:28 <ais523> otherwise neither your training nor your inference will be able to supply the inputs properly
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00:29:04 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170914&oldid=166591 * QTpye * (+410) /* Instructions */
00:33:20 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170915&oldid=170914 * QTpye * (+0) /* Instructions */
00:34:47 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170916&oldid=170915 * QTpye * (+39) /* Instructions */
01:03:09 <esolangs> [[MikuLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170917 * Frendoly * (+1189) Created page with "This language was only made because there wasnt any vocaloid themed esolangs! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! ==IMPORTANT THING== This programming language uses the names of Vocaloid characters as commands. This programming language uses an accumulator. ==ANOTHER
01:06:08 <esolangs> [[MikuLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170918&oldid=170917 * Frendoly * (+9) /* Commands */
01:08:29 <esolangs> [[User:Frendoly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170919&oldid=170813 * Frendoly * (+21)
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02:50:24 <esolangs> [[2 poets, 1 poem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170921&oldid=170912 * Tommyaweosme * (+586) fixed up a couple things, possibly going for round 2 tommorrow
02:51:27 <esolangs> [[2 poets, 1 poem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170922&oldid=170921 * Tommyaweosme * (+6)
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07:13:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:MikuLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170923 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+243) Created page with "Finally Vocaloid gets some recognition in this community! :D ~~~~"
07:17:52 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170924&oldid=170828 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+116) add scratch profile link
07:18:28 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170925&oldid=170924 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-21) bruh how did I copy the div tag
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08:39:53 <esolangs> [[IA562-TAANIFITAAA-0401MS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170928 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+269) make redirect page for the shorthand name
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08:46:12 <esolangs> [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170931&oldid=157694 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (+15) /* See also */
08:53:29 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170932&oldid=75216 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-96) /* Hello, world! */
08:55:13 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170933&oldid=170932 * JHSHernandez-ZBH * (-100) /* FizzBuzz */
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09:18:56 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170938&oldid=170927 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-65) /* Hello, world! */
09:19:36 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170939&oldid=170938 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+37) Add FSM category
09:19:52 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170940&oldid=170939 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-1) automatA, not automa
09:20:14 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170941&oldid=170940 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-36) nevermind that cate
09:22:16 <esolangs> [[Random3ByteJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170942&oldid=170935 * Timm * (+88)
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10:46:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alex Rou * New user account
10:49:03 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170944&oldid=170925 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+31) /* my esolangs */ Add [[IA562-TAANIFITAAA-0401MS]]
10:58:17 <esolangs> [[BitBitIfJump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170945 * Timm * (+265) Created page with "like [[ByteByteIfJump]] but not <code>B* =- A* ? B* = C jump D</code> instead copy bit from A* to B* if A* and B* = C and D then jump E [[4ByteJump]] Version 2 [[Random3ByteJump]] [[User:Timm]] [[Category:OISC]] [[Category:Self-modifying]] [[Category:Languages]]"
11:13:12 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170946&oldid=170941 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+1481) add compact notati
11:55:15 <esolangs> [[BrainTrix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170947 * Timm * (+57) Created page with "like brainfuck but has <code>^ v</code> <code>.BT</code>"
11:55:36 <esolangs> [[BrainTrix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170948&oldid=170947 * Timm * (+15)
11:57:04 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170949&oldid=170780 * Timm * (+26)
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12:03:58 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170951&oldid=170946 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+939) add reference imple
12:06:54 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170952&oldid=170951 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+105) add categories bec
13:02:37 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170953&oldid=170876 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+439) /* Uiua page draft */ add some more links and information
13:43:06 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/NBBS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170954 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+543) Created page with "{{wip}} Hi, im going to do research on NBBS, or Nikolas Bracket Braiding System. Im also gonna try and make an esolang based on it. == Syntax == NBBS uses the following system: * Every bracket must have a matching bracket(so every left bracket mus
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14:51:46 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170955&oldid=170952 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+22) this counts as them
14:59:25 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170956&oldid=129329 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+132) Added the language BF (BestCoder).
15:02:06 <esolangs> [[BF (BestCoder)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170957&oldid=170856 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+82) Supplemented the fact that the language represents a trivial brainfuck substitution.
16:21:44 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/NBBS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170958&oldid=170954 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1108)
16:28:00 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/NBBS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170959&oldid=170958 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+59) /* Syntax */
16:43:01 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/NBBS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170960&oldid=170959 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+383) /* Weaving */
16:47:54 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/NBBS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170961&oldid=170960 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+36) /* A simple infinite pattern */
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16:51:05 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/NBBS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170962&oldid=170961 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+10) /* A simple infinite pattern */
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17:18:10 <esolangs> [[BF (BestCoder)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170963&oldid=170957 * Corbin * (+25) Disambiguate. Clean up bluelinks. "Equipollence" is a specific term in geometry; the right word here is "equivalence".
17:49:53 <esolangs> [[8ial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170964&oldid=170913 * Ractangle * (+106) /* Cat program */
18:44:24 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170965&oldid=170905 * * (+199) /* Commands */
18:45:57 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170966&oldid=170965 * * (+1) /* Commands */
18:50:12 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170967&oldid=170966 * * (+39) /* Commands */
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18:54:43 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170968&oldid=170967 * * (+188) /* Examples */
18:55:32 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170969&oldid=170968 * * (+5) /* FlipShift */
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20:01:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:MikuLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170970&oldid=170923 * Frendoly * (+425)
20:03:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:MikuLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170971&oldid=170970 * Frendoly * (+16)
20:05:51 <esolangs> [[MikuLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170972&oldid=170920 * Frendoly * (+74)
20:29:44 <esolangs> [[MikuLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170973&oldid=170972 * Frendoly * (+31)
20:41:24 <esolangs> [[MikuLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170974&oldid=170973 * Frendoly * (+130)
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20:49:51 <Everything> How this attack is called, when attacker attacks hash table, by creating collisions? So that hash table degrades to linked list in efficiency
20:51:50 <int-e> the term "hash DoS" seems popular
20:52:40 <int-e> "hash collision DoS" is more technically accurate and also used quite a bit
21:00:41 <esolangs> [[User:Frendoly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170975&oldid=170919 * Frendoly * (+64)
21:10:16 <esolangs> [[User:Frendoly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170976&oldid=170975 * Frendoly * (+260)
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21:21:34 <korvo> Everything: It's called "hash flooding" and is a special case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_attack
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22:46:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170977&oldid=170910 * Buckets * (+14) /* T */
22:46:35 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170978&oldid=170823 * Buckets * (+13)
22:46:53 <esolangs> [[Tunable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170979 * Buckets * (+8674) Created page with "Tunable Is an Esoteric Programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2025 And created After [[-1]] and [[Tabler]] And also Be a pure-Table Esolang. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Pseudo-Commands !! Pseudo-Instructions |- | <nowiki>{| class="wikitable"</nowiki><br> <n
22:50:13 <esolangs> [[Tunable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170980&oldid=170979 * Buckets * (+0)
00:10:39 <esolangs> [[Hata hata hata ton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170981 * Timm * (+712) Created page with ":''This esolang is not detailed enough and needs to be expanded. Please help us by <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}} adding some more information on category and EXAMPLES]</span>.''<includeonly>[[Category:Stubs]]</includeonly> {|
00:13:52 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170982&oldid=170950 * Timm * (+26)
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02:26:52 <Sgeo> I saw on some social media Math.min() > Math.max() being treated as a Javascript oddity and now I'm seeing red
02:34:15 <esolangs> [[MicroMiku]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170983 * Frendoly * (+145) Created page with "Just [[MikuLang]] but with lowercase shortenings of the commands Ex) m 10=Miku 10 a=Adachi Rei I did this so i can make it in micropython."
02:38:03 <esolangs> [[MicroMiku]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170984&oldid=170983 * Frendoly * (+88)
02:39:12 <esolangs> [[User:Frendoly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170985&oldid=170976 * Frendoly * (-13)
04:23:37 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Notxnorand * New user account
04:27:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170986&oldid=170906 * Notxnorand * (+161)
04:36:03 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170987&oldid=160697 * TheCatFromGithub * (+135) /* Esolangs I made */ reorganize
04:50:46 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170988 * TheCatFromGithub * (+123) Created page with " is a joke esolang with one instruction, , that reveals the meaning of life if and only if the universe does not exist."
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06:39:06 <b_jonas> I assume min without arguments should give plus infinity or something else that compares very big, whereas max without arguments should give minus infinity or similar
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06:48:02 <Sgeo> b_jonas, yes. But people commenting all seemed to be confused. Maybe they were thinking Math.min() is the smallest representable number, rather than the min function?
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07:47:36 <int-e> b_jonas: Yes. Where did this come up?
07:49:23 <int-e> related: arctic and tropical rings. arctic rings have + as multiplication, max as addition, and -oo as the additive unit; tropical rings use min and -oo instead of max and +oo.
07:59:32 <int-e> fizzie: Hmm, I'm curious... is fetching an old revision expensive in Mediawiki, or is it the fact that there are so many of them so the total number of requests explode?
09:02:17 <b_jonas> int-e: I was told that at one point some bots were fetching all pairwise diffs on a page with very long history like [[Introduce yourself]]
09:03:45 <b_jonas> there are only about 170_000 revisions total
09:03:59 <b_jonas> and they're all in the dump file, though compressed
09:04:49 <b_jonas> also the requests aren't just for older revisions but also for fancy word-wise highlighted diffs, which I think is some of the expensive parts
09:05:33 <int-e> b_jonas: Ah dang, I somehow missed the message in the midst of wiki edits.
09:06:12 <int-e> b_jonas: I get the pairwise diff thing. https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170351 wouldn't suffer from that though
09:07:40 <int-e> and the message mentions that explicitly too: "certain expensive pages (diffs, old article versions)"
09:07:57 <int-e> so I assume it's intentional
09:13:51 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hata_hata_hata_ton => this is a very rare decent idea for a trivial brainfuck substitution
09:14:22 <b_jonas> I tip my hat, I didn't think I'd see one
09:26:25 <int-e> Do you think the author thought about the `ton jaka` prefix? (Easy to disambiguate with lookahead, or you can parse backwards and not worry about such overlaps at all.)
09:28:14 <int-e> (I forgot to check a detail of that claim but it works out fine)
10:25:15 <fizzie> int-e: I didn't dig too deeply this time, but it seemed to be not _just_ about diffs, because those were already getting mostly 503'd by the rate limiting, plus applying that logged-in-only rule only to `diff=` didn't seem to help much.
10:25:20 <fizzie> Last time I was actually looking at this, the problem seemed to be -- in addition to diffs, which definitely are more expensive -- crawling the entire history of some specific very long pages, like the introductions page already mentioned and some others I can't recall right now.
10:25:24 <fizzie> (I'd like to extract some per-URL cost-to-serve numbers though.)
10:26:58 <fizzie> `blsq {}<] "just checking"vv
10:27:00 <HackEso> blsq: Prelude.minimum: empty list
10:27:07 <fizzie> Guess that's defensible as well.
10:29:04 <sorear> if it's something like Int that has no maximum
10:30:55 <fizzie> Fun Burlesque fact: all floats are considered larger than all integers.
10:30:58 <fizzie> `blsq {7 3.0 1 2.0 5 4.5}><
10:37:27 <int-e> then chars, then strings and them I'm unsure which of the rest exist as values. I guess lists are next?
10:37:51 <int-e> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/blob/master/Burlesque/Types.hs#L26-L48
10:38:16 <int-e> (I assume lists correspond to BlsqQuoted [BlsqExp])
10:38:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: cost of specific requests might not be well-defined because caching across requests has a significant effect
10:39:40 <b_jonas> sorear: what? Int has a maximum, it's 9223372036854775807, isn't it?
10:40:22 <sorear> or was it Integer? too long
10:40:32 <lambdabot> No instance for ‘Bounded Integer’ arising from a use of ‘maxBound’
10:40:32 <lambdabot> In the expression: maxBound :: Integer
10:41:07 <b_jonas> all floats larger than all integers is a strange ordering
10:41:57 <b_jonas> isn't that bad for golfing because it's harder to compare floats with specific constants like 0 or 1 or 2?
10:42:36 <fizzie> int-e: `BlsqBlock [BlsqExp]` is a list, I guess. Or at least they're consistently called "blocks". Not sure what BlsqQuoted is...
10:42:57 <fizzie> Yes, but Burlesque allegedly isn't meant for golfing.
10:45:45 <b_jonas> but it added three one-character synonyms for what used to exist as two-character commands, didn't it?
10:46:13 <b_jonas> and they're ascii synonyms, it's not like it added non-ascii synonyms for users who can type those easily
10:47:07 <int-e> fizzie: you're right that lists are BlsqBlock
10:47:37 <fizzie> int-e: https://mroman.ch/burlesque/lref.html says "Quoted - Can be used to push identifiers on the stack" which I guess means (ab) but I thought that was only ever for a single identifier, so not sure why it's a list.
10:50:03 <int-e> There's a y...Y syntax by the looks of it.
10:50:06 <fizzie> I guess "isn't meant for golfing" was a bit too strongly put, suitability for golfing is somewhat of a thing. But let's say it's not exclusively meant for golfing so it doesn't try terribly hard to optimize for that use case.
10:50:34 <fizzie> "Burlesque evolved to be a programming language used for both serious applications and golfing too" is what it says in the wiki article.
10:51:21 <b_jonas> obviously every programming language can be golfed and every video game can be speedran, even the ones that seem very unsuitable for such uses
10:51:32 <b_jonas> but blsq seems not that bad for golfing
10:52:28 <fizzie> The y...Y syntax I'd never heard of; seems like it pushes everything in ... to the stack as separate elements, instead of as a block.
10:53:26 <HackEso> {"Ident" "Int" "Ident"} \ {.+ 123 ab}
10:54:28 <fizzie> Another fun Burlesque fact: you can use the "scientific notation" syntax for integers, but *only* for integers: 1e9 is the same as 1000000000, but 1.0e9 is just an error.
10:56:19 <int-e> Anyway, y ... Y parses as a BlsQuoted with more than one member.
10:57:25 <fizzie> There's a lot in the language that's neither in the language reference, nor in the moonpage.
10:58:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170989&oldid=170986 * Alex Rou * (+208)
10:58:24 <int-e> Oh great commit message: "+ features"
10:58:51 <fizzie> For example, s0/S0/g0 (and the 1...9 variants), which also seem somewhat incompletely implemented in that they print out particularly ugly when in a block.
10:58:56 <HackEso> {__INTERNAL__:BlsqGet "0"}
11:08:56 <int-e> `blsq %a = "1 2 3" |[ a pe a ]|
11:13:09 <fizzie> For a moment there I thought you could (usefully) do single-character idents with %x=..., but I think that's actually defining (a ) instead of (a).
11:13:17 <fizzie> But I'd no idea about |[ ... ]|.
11:13:54 <int-e> it's from the same commit as y...Y
11:14:27 <fizzie> Sounds like it's an evaluate-and-collect-results-in-a-block thing.
11:14:33 <int-e> but I don't think they interact with each other in a useful way?
11:15:38 <fizzie> `blsq |[123 456 789.+]|
11:15:41 <fizzie> `blsq "123 456 789.+"peCl
11:17:04 <int-e> `blsq 42 |[123 456 789.+]|
11:17:33 <fizzie> Yeah, that'd make it different from Cl.
11:18:21 <int-e> Anyway. Still not learning Burlesque :-P
11:18:30 <fizzie> Can't immediately think of a use case in AoC solutions but I'm sure it could be handy sometimes.
11:19:56 <fizzie> There's cases when you do need the result of one evaluation in a singleton block, but ...bx is shorter than |[...]|.
11:40:45 <int-e> `blsq {1 2 3}S0%0!
12:50:25 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/NBBS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170990&oldid=170962 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+592)
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13:17:48 <esolangs> [[H (Hammy)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170991&oldid=169903 * Hammy * (+790)
13:22:40 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170992&oldid=134936 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+6) /* how it works */
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15:35:41 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170993&oldid=170969 * None1 * (+34) /* Examples */
15:41:21 <esolangs> [[User guessed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170994&oldid=170993 * None1 * (+172) /* Commands */
16:10:22 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170995&oldid=170987 * TheCatFromGithub * (+21) jokes
16:15:07 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170996&oldid=170988 * TheCatFromGithub * (+45)
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16:17:41 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170997&oldid=170729 * TheCatFromGithub * (+71) /* General languages */
16:19:42 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170998&oldid=170996 * TheCatFromGithub * (+96)
16:19:59 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170999&oldid=170998 * TheCatFromGithub * (+0)
16:21:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171000&oldid=170385 * Ytebbit * (+496) page deletion request
16:21:14 <esolangs> [[Forbin?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171001&oldid=169345 * TheCatFromGithub * (+66)
16:22:48 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171002&oldid=170977 * TheCatFromGithub * (+14) /* F */
16:30:11 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171003&oldid=170995 * TheCatFromGithub * (+328)
16:31:12 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171004&oldid=171003 * TheCatFromGithub * (+4) /* Guess the plaintext from the hash! */
16:36:38 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171005&oldid=171004 * TheCatFromGithub * (+32) /* Guess the plaintext from the hash! */
17:02:55 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171006&oldid=170772 * NTMDev * (+1)
17:04:42 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171007&oldid=171006 * NTMDev * (-152)
17:42:07 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171008&oldid=170610 * TheCatFromGithub * (+191)
17:52:00 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171009&oldid=171008 * TheCatFromGithub * (-80) /* Type 81 */
18:05:56 <esolangs> [[Highlighter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=171010 * Hammy2 * (+1752) Created page with "Highlighter is a programming language that is inspired by highlighters. It was created by [[User:Hammy]]. ==Commands== The actual commands don't matter, only the highlighting. {| class="wikitable" ! Highlight color !! Type !! Combination !! Operation |- | <span style
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19:43:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171011&oldid=134845 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-380) /* a implementation */
20:06:48 <esolangs> [[x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171012&oldid=170992 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1698) Blanked the page
20:09:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:x.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171013&oldid=134939 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-393) Blanked the page
20:12:07 <esolangs> [[Brutefock]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=171014 * TheCatFromGithub * (+612) Created page with "'''Brutefock''' is a [[brainfuck]] derivative in which the source brainfuck is hashed, and the interpreter must brute-force the hashed program into the source program (hence the name, a portmanteau of brainfuck and bruteforce). It is assumed that, before hashi
20:15:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171015&oldid=171002 * TheCatFromGithub * (+16) /* B */ add brutefock
20:17:07 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171016&oldid=171005 * TheCatFromGithub * (-26) /* Non-trivial */
20:21:25 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171017&oldid=171016 * TheCatFromGithub * (+28)
20:22:28 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171018&oldid=171017 * TheCatFromGithub * (+86)
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20:24:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:TheCatFromGithub]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=171019 * TheCatFromGithub * (+237) Created page with "Welcome to my talk page! If you want, you can suggest esolangs here for me to "improve"/"extend". In quotes because I'm not really that good at that but ok. I like seeing people implementing my esolangs, so please tell me here if you do!"
20:24:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171020&oldid=171019 * TheCatFromGithub * (+111)
20:24:50 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171021&oldid=171018 * TheCatFromGithub * (+33)
20:25:02 <esolangs> [[User:TheCatFromGithub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171022&oldid=171021 * TheCatFromGithub * (+7)
21:05:44 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/Template:Message]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=171023 * Hammy2 * (+1024) Created page with "<div style="background-color:{{{bgc|DodgerBlue}}};border-style:{{{style|solid}}};border-color:{{{bc|blue}}}">{{{sig|[[User:{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}|]] ([[User talk:{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}|talk]])}}} {{{action|says}}}...<br/><q>{{{message|Hello, world!}}}
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21:41:26 <int-e> I finished the Bonfire Peaks DLC... so many good puzzles. (I don't know how one manages to keep puzzles both clean (no extra stuff, almost no unused features in the puzzle layout; too many puzzle games try to be difficult by just making humongous levels with way too many moving parts) and full of new ideas (well, there are themes but I feel that most of the non-introductory puzzles each have...
21:41:32 <int-e> ...their own unique twist)
21:42:29 <int-e> (DLC is https://draknek.itch.io/bonfire-peaks-lost-memories ...it *did* take a long time to finish)
22:03:14 <zzo38> I know some puzzle games do have puzzles too big to fit on the screen, but the ones I prefer and some that I have made up are mostly made up to fit the entire puzzle on the screen at once, although how many moving parts can vary as well as the size of the puzzle. There are different kind of puzzle games; some kinds use a grid.
22:05:33 <zzo38> Some puzzles in some kind of games can involve many kind of ideas, including: combinations of objects, unusual consequences of rules, etc.
23:05:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171024&oldid=171015 * Buckets * (+12) /* A */
23:05:28 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=171025&oldid=170978 * Buckets * (+11)
23:05:38 <esolangs> [[Apysi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=171026 * Buckets * (+2198) Created page with "Apysi Is an esoteric Programming language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2021, but Created before [[Beef]]. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | + || Push the Absolute difference Between the Top three Values( via The Absolute of the Difference of Maxim
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