00:41:04 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169694&oldid=169675 * PrySigneToFry * (-37)
00:41:23 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169695&oldid=169694 * PrySigneToFry * (-22)
00:42:31 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169696&oldid=169695 * PrySigneToFry * (+54)
00:42:49 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169697&oldid=169696 * PrySigneToFry * (+22)
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02:02:01 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169698&oldid=163972 * Kleberlucas * (+133) added zig 0.15 implementation
02:16:45 <esolangs> [[Nein.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169699 * Kleberlucas * (+245) Created page with "'''Nein.''' works just like [[Nope.]], but instead of printing <code>Nope.</code>, it prints <code>Nein.</code> . I wonder if somebody will ever make an implementation for this esolang. Note: made by [[User:Kleberlucas]]. [[Category:Languages]]"
02:18:46 <esolangs> [[Nein.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169700&oldid=169699 * Aadenboy * (+161)
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03:25:54 <esolangs> [[FFFF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169701&oldid=169649 * RainbowDash * (+0) /* Example FSM encoding. */
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05:11:46 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169702&oldid=169697 * PrySigneToFry * (+901) Maybe I must put the notice here.
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05:19:07 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169703&oldid=168259 * PrySigneToFry * (+2059)
05:20:48 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169704&oldid=169703 * PrySigneToFry * (+48)
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07:58:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Fuck 2red]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: author request, no useful content
07:59:06 <ais523> zzo38: I think I've heard the name "translation database" before but am not sure how good a fit it is
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08:08:18 <Yayimhere> I landed an interview on Esoteric.codes yesterday
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08:09:40 <ais523> ah, looks like it hasn't been posted yet
08:09:49 <ais523> but it's interesting to see a range of different perspectives
08:09:58 <ais523> I will look forward to it
08:10:14 <Yayimhere> we haven't actually done it yet, because Daniel just got done with his book
08:16:49 <ais523> I've been busy with other things for a while (and am still a bit busy) so I haven't got much esolanging done
08:19:19 <Yayimhere> on the esolanging, and speed up on other things
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08:26:42 <Yayimhere> `(np)/q == p/(qn)` if and only If n = 1 or -1
08:26:44 <HackEso> (np)/q? No such file or directory
08:26:58 <Yayimhere> that could be interesting as a conditional
08:27:50 <Yayimhere> maybe a Fractran style list of fractions
08:28:06 <Yayimhere> where `n=(np)/q` if and only if `(np)/q == p/(qn)`
08:28:31 <ais523> this simplifies to n/x == x/n or if you have constants, n == 1/n
08:29:03 <ais523> and it rearranges to n*n == 1
08:29:12 <ais523> (which then means it works with integer arithmetic)
08:29:42 <Yayimhere> well then it would be `n=(np)/q` if `n*n == 1`
08:29:58 <ais523> I think the normal situation where this sort of thing is useful is when you don't have control flow available at all and are just trying to simulate it using unconditional calculations on variables
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08:30:43 <ais523> languages like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded_Arithmetic or ELEMENTARY (which isn't documented on the wiki yet, I need to get round to it)
08:31:26 <HackEso> n=(np)/q? No such file or directory
08:31:39 <Yayimhere> as in solve for `p/q=n` for both `p & q`
08:36:07 <ais523> now I'm busy reading up on ELEMENTARY to see if I can document it
08:36:24 <ais523> Wikipedia used to have some amount of description on it as a language but it seems to have been deleted, possibly due to lack of sources
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08:36:48 <ais523> it's sort-of like Blindfolded Arithmetic but with more operators and without the loop (so it's sub-Turing-complete, but pretty powerful)
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08:55:14 <avih_> ais523: btw, i mentioned few times that https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck has better optimizations than any other bf compiler/interpreter i saw, but i looked at the code, and as far as i can tell it has a big list of "canned" patterns it tries to identify and address, so not as generic as i hoped it would be. still very good though
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08:56:20 <avih> (judging by the function names. i didn't try to actually follow the code)
09:05:46 <ais523> optimisers often do that sort of thing
09:05:53 <ais523> but yes, a bit disappointing
09:09:24 <avih> ais523: is your optimizer on the more generic side?
09:09:47 <avih> (i know it's not bf, but still)
09:09:48 <ais523> the one I was working on but ended up abandoning was more generic
09:10:07 <ais523> and the one for The Waterfall Model is only identifying one pattern but it's a very general one
09:10:25 <avih> right, that's what i hope to do with bf too
09:10:42 <avih> with the one pattern being "counter loop"
09:12:13 <avih> (it's the best name i got for it, but i've not seen this name elsewhere. typically it's called balanced loops or some such, but it's more specific than that because the main characteristic is that there's one cell which is being decreased by 1 on each iteration, making it a counter)
09:14:49 <avih> (and obviously the loop ends when this cell is zero)
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10:32:09 <Yayimhere> I just realized I had accidentally said that `n=np`
10:45:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * JIT * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Nothing-suspicious.png]]": definitely did NOT make 2 errors in this thing and had to correct them, unrelated note: steganographic code is REALLY hard to code!
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10:59:41 <APic> Heya Yayimhere 😌
11:11:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169706&oldid=168264 * I am islptng * (+152) /* SletScript */
11:11:10 <esolangs> [[Exoshell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169707 * Keymaker * (+45750) A two-symbol loop-based language where program form (such as nested loops) encodes no additional functionality.
11:20:17 <esolangs> [[Countertrue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169708 * Keymaker * (+3244) A simple counter-based language with deterministic, cyclic execution.
11:21:48 <esolangs> [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169709&oldid=148473 * Keymaker * (+159) Added the new languages.
11:35:05 <ais523> it may take me a while to read this
11:35:25 <Yayimhere> ais523: it does in fact seem interesting
11:35:56 <strerror> “nested loops encode no additional functionality” seems like an unintuitive way to describe a language where nested loops encode all functionality
11:36:21 <ais523> huh, Countertrue is like a backwards version of The Waterfall Model
11:36:50 <ais523> instead of the zeroing triggers running when the counter is zero, they run when the counter *isn't* zero
11:37:44 <ais523> it's interesting that this works despite the triggers containing only +1/0/-1 as values
11:37:51 <ais523> I'm not surprised that that's true, but it isn't totally obvious
11:38:47 <esolangs> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169710&oldid=160864 * Ais523 * (+18) /* See also */ Countertrue is basically the opposite of The Waterfall Model (the triggers run when the counter isn't 0 rather than when it is 0) and so almost certainly is worth linking here
11:41:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ytyeytyd98e88498 * New user account
11:43:38 <Yayimhere> I wonder if mayhaps Unlambda is turing complete with `c` and `d` and `s`
11:55:33 <ais523> oh right, if you want to change a counter by more than 1 in Countertrue you can just use duplicate counters in order to get twice as many triggers
11:56:16 <ais523> this would work in The Waterfall Model too, if simultaneous zeroing were defined as running both triggers rather than undefined behaviour (but the "run both triggers" behaviour is often hard to implement and not very natural for the language)
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12:08:22 <esolangs> [[$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169711&oldid=165582 * JIT * (+32)
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14:28:14 <ais523> random thought: is running a sequence of iconv commands in a loop Turing-complete? it feels like character encodings are complex enough that surely some of them must have the ability to do computation when misinterpreted as other character encodings
14:28:52 <ais523> iconv + tr probably is, iconv on its own suffers from maybe not being able to map characters the way you'd want to map them
14:38:13 <esolangs> [[Exoshell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169712&oldid=169707 * Keymaker * (+392) /* Program and execution */
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14:45:23 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1336.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
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15:29:53 <korvo> avih: There's a relevant Perlis: "Programmers are not to be measured by their ingenuity and their logic but by the completeness of their case analysis." Same deal with compiler idioms.
15:30:06 <korvo> Oh, wait, there's another: "Get into a rut early: Do the same process the same way. Accumulate idioms. Standardize. The only difference(!) between Shakespeare and you was the size of his idiom list - not the size of his vocabulary."
15:33:13 <korvo> I mean, it's not common to find folks who know what "dun" means (it means dull, waxy, pale, untanned); Shakespeare's vocabulary was daunting. But it also was typical for the time among learned people; plenty of folks could understand and appreciate his writing.
15:35:14 <ais523> Shakespeare just invented new words when necessary, though
15:35:30 <ais523> so some of them wouldn't have been known by the audience at the time (but they could probably work them out(
15:38:49 <korvo> Sure. The legend is that he aggressively borrowed words; the audience would have known "bandit" from Italian, for example, or "uncomfortable" from the standard Germanic un- prefix attached to "comfortable". What's more interesting to me are the noun phrases like "cold-blooded".
15:39:05 <korvo> The legend is also that he came up with words like "bump" and "swag", but that beggars belief.
15:40:57 <ais523> this is one luxury we don't have in programming, we can't just invent a word without defining it, or the computer won't understand it
15:44:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Square-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169713 * * (+139) Created page with "So a Turing-complete language can be non-Square-complete? ~~~~"
15:45:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Square-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169714&oldid=169713 * Corbin * (+210) Yes, but.
16:04:07 <korvo> Still thinking about that. Mostly to see the details of the analogy. Invented words aren't automatically understood; we have a couple different layers of analysis (memetic, phonetic, whatever Werniecke's area does, acoustic) that go into word recognition, and each of those layers is independently trained.
16:04:52 <korvo> (I'm somewhat sensitive to this because I have auditory processing issues; I *can't* recognize new words easily. I need to hear the phoenetics multiple times, I have no idea how to spell them, and I don't know what words might mean in context.)
16:05:33 <korvo> On the other side, computers don't understand anything. We do have a notion of opcodes, ISA, and executable text; but there's no sense in which the computer refuses to understand unknown opcodes. It has a full specification of how those behave: they don't!
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16:06:24 <korvo> And if we subscribe to the theory that all machines are weird then the computer's understanding is irrelevant; what matters is that *we* divide the opcodes into the worlds of "understandable" and "weird" based on whether *we* understand the effects of those codes.
16:12:16 <DOS_User_webchat> <ais523> this is one luxury we don't have in programming, we can't just invent a word without defining it, or the computer won't understand it
16:12:41 <DOS_User_webchat> im a human and very often i need words i dont know to be defined tbh
16:13:15 <ais523> we do that all the time in this channel
16:15:40 <esolangs> [[Q!?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169715 * * (+950) Created page with "'''Q!?''' is a 2D [[Turing tarpit]] made by [[User:]]. {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command !! What it does |- | ^ || Moves execution up. |- | v || Moves execution down. |- | < || Moves execution to the left. |- | > || Moves execution to the right. |- | g || Goes back the
16:15:55 <esolangs> [[Q!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169716&oldid=169715 * * (-6) /* Turing completeness */
16:17:14 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169717&oldid=169353 * * (+38) /* Survey */
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16:20:31 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169718&oldid=169717 * Corbin * (-38) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/169717|169717]] by [[Special:Contributions/|]] ([[User talk:|talk]]): Too large to be a tarpit. Also, please don't add stuff to this list until it's proven TC and implemented; it's already too big and I'm still trying to pare it down.
16:29:22 <ais523> hmm, I wonder whether Esimpl is a Turing tarpit
16:29:39 <korvo> Hm. I double-checked [[Turing tarpit]]'s history, and found something I never quite answered. *Why* did the study of Turing tarpits decline? What happened in the mid-60s to completely change people's opinions about the worthiness of minimal machines?
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16:30:07 <ais523> I think they were hoping it would give some fundamental insight, then decided it wouldn't – but I don't know anything more beyond that
16:30:50 <ais523> I've been studying Turing tarpits possibly more than anyone else, and the insights have been interesting but probably not what the computer scientists of the day were hoping for
16:31:00 <korvo> There's two obvious candidates in the history. The first one is the development of ALGOL. I don't understand exactly how this could have catalyzed a change in research, but maybe it sucked the air out of other ventures.
16:32:11 <korvo> The second one, which is more compelling to me, is the development of MOSFET techniques for integrated circuits. WP says that MOSFETs outpaced older techniques in 1964, and that's also the year that the first commercial product based on the tech came out: https://www.computerhistory.org/siliconengine/first-commercial-mos-ic-introduced/
16:33:06 <ais523> hmm, so your theory is along the lines of "computers got powerful enough for higher-level languages to become more obviously useful, and that made lower-level languages seem less useful"
16:33:21 <korvo> ais523: It definitely does seem like people were disappointed. In USA history, there's this concept of Great Disappointment, where a bunch of people predicted that the world would end. When it didn't end, they became very bitter and splintered into a bunch of other movements, which still claimed that the world was ending, but in more subtle ways.
16:33:28 <korvo> Yayimhere: Good morning.
16:33:31 <ais523> but normally the people writing high-level languages and the people studying low-level languages are different
16:33:48 <korvo> ais523: That certainly lines up with the quotes from Minksy and Perlis that I've got on the article, but that could be cherry-picking or Great Man Syndrome.
16:34:27 <ais523> it's also possible that they *got* some results which weren't what they wanted
16:34:38 <korvo> ais523: Right! I think of people like Hopper as climbing a ladder of abstraction, while plenty of other folks stuck to electrical engineering and the nitty-gritty of building components at scale. In the 1950s a computer had to be installed by a team of techs, it had a dedicated operator and cleaning crew, etc.
16:35:06 <ais523> I know what reducing a language's expressive power looks like (to make it easier to implement), sometimes I've seriously fought for really minor points of expressive power (e.g. Acyclic Tag compared to regular cyclic tag)
16:35:14 <ais523> even without having any obvious application for them in mind
16:35:40 <ais523> I imagine that can be a bit disheartening if you think that repeatedly reducing expressive power would get you down to some fundamental "simplest possible programming language"
16:36:05 <ais523> after a while they start to become more complicated to describe, despite being easy to implement (e.g. cyclic tag is elegant in a way that Acyclic Tag is not)
16:36:11 <korvo> Yeah. Minsky's program, for example. Minsky finally succeeded in writing a very small universal Turing-machine program sometime around then, and didn't learn anything from the venture. Today, we'd probably think of it as a recreational activity. Maybe it's one of those bits of maths that *became* recreational as computers advanced, like how mental math for taking roots is no longer popular.
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16:37:05 <ais523> what I got out of the exercise was an improved ability to prove things TC, but that isn't obviously useful
16:37:18 <ais523> I mean, it's useful for an admin of the Esolang wiki, but most people aren't in that situation
16:37:37 <korvo> That's definitely another possibility, although computational complexity wasn't developed enough for that. Maybe there's Kuhnian incommensurability in how they saw the programming landscape. I know that even today, lots of maths folks think of TMs as being the "simplest" such machine, rather than one that emulates pen and paper.
16:37:57 <Yayimhere> korvo: btw, if you care, then you'll be happy to know my parents have forced me to use my programming skills for something that isnt esolangs
16:38:04 <ais523> you can go both simpler and more elegant than TMs very easily
16:39:10 <korvo> ais523: Oh, none of this inquiry is to critique what you're working on. I'm wholly focused on this question of what happened from 1961 to 1966 or so. To quote a fictional detective, it *vexes* me.
16:39:41 <ais523> but the most I can to do help is explain the outcomes I've personally observed doing similar research in the hope that it gives some insight into the other people who were doing that
16:40:04 <ais523> 1961 is recent enough that it might be possible to just find someone who was there at the time and ask
16:40:18 <korvo> I think that your work is super-important frontier work, in addition to the contributions you make to foundations. We do need researchers. If we're going to cut off a line of research then I'd like to understand why we did that.
16:40:42 <ais523> I don't know whether it's important or not, I do it anyway
16:41:02 <ais523> if it is important, that's a bonus
16:41:13 <korvo> Yayimhere: Yay! But also if that other thing is school, then I know that that can be very boring. I remember writing programs on my calculator to help me in with math and science class.
16:41:33 <ais523> one thing that I've historically neglected is performance, there are double-exponentials everywhere in my work
16:41:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169719&oldid=169109 * * (+110)
16:41:53 <ais523> I have been trying to care more about it recently
16:42:08 <Yayimhere> korvo: thankfully it isnt, its making a gamme
16:42:16 <Yayimhere> though I think I might make it in like
16:42:26 <esolangs> [[Q!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169720&oldid=169716 * * (+15)
16:42:37 <Yayimhere> a Malbolge or Brainf*ck assembly language
16:42:37 <ais523> partly because I think it's "less solved" than pure TCness is, and less investigated in the esolang community (although probably more investigated in academic papers)
16:43:19 <ais523> I would advise not trying to write a game in Malbolge (or indeed write anything else in Malbolge)
16:43:32 <Yayimhere> (though I will still be active in the esolanging community, since I landed an esoteric.codes interview)
16:43:51 <ais523> that's how I first got into esolangs, it didn't work out well in terms of writing the Malbolge programs specifically
16:44:01 <ais523> but it did get me far enough to observe INTERCAL
16:44:18 <Yayimhere> one thing im *not* doing is intercal
16:44:47 <ais523> now I'm wondering how many INTERCAL programs are intended as games, probably not that many of them
16:45:07 <ais523> but yes, INTERCAL is a bit dated at this point
16:45:19 <ais523> it mostly exists as a platform for adding jokes, but you need something to parody
16:45:47 <ais523> and I'm not sure that many modern languages have features that are worth parodying, which is a shame
16:46:41 <ais523> maybe something like Rust's borrow-checker would be fun to parody, but I'm not sure how you would create something that superficially seems like a borrow checker and can do a basic impression of its most common uses, and then breaks spectacularly when you try to use it for something more complicated
16:46:48 <ais523> (which is how most of INTERCAL's features work)
16:47:47 <ais523> I think my favourite INTERCAL jokes are the ones where we just use a tool correctly for its intended purpose, in situations where nobody else would sanely do that
16:48:24 <ais523> like, C-INTERCAL has as far as I know a fully correct autoconf+automake setup, it took me months of learning to figure that out and required using the tools in ways they're hardly ever used in practice
16:49:19 <Yayimhere> my favorite feature of interval is ABSTAIN
16:49:41 <ais523> by line number or by gerund? or both?
16:50:10 <ais523> I like ABSTAIN too, but the two uses of it are extremely different
16:50:22 <Yayimhere> ais523: I think its by line number
16:51:02 <ais523> line number is by far the computationally more interesting version
16:51:08 <ais523> gerund is the better joke but not very practical in practice
16:51:26 <Yayimhere> lemme check which is which real fast
16:51:40 <ais523> line number is DO ABSTAIN FROM (10) or the like
16:51:45 <ais523> gerund is DO ABSTAIN FROM CALCULATING or the like
16:52:45 <ais523> actually this is why I don't like IGNORE, it's basically the boring version of ABSTAIN
16:53:23 <ais523> it makes variable read-only
16:53:30 <ais523> attempts to write to them just get ignored
16:53:40 <ais523> you can undo it with REMEMBER
16:53:55 <Yayimhere> ais523: ok that is a *little* funny
16:55:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169721&oldid=169719 * Corbin * (+1155) Good question! It wholly depends on the underlying models.
16:56:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Corbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169722&oldid=169721 * Corbin * (+62) Add topic headings.
16:58:34 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169723&oldid=162876 * Corbin * (+132) /* Completeness */ Clearly indicate the open question.
17:02:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Dango Language Logo.png]]": author chose not to release to the public domain
17:03:47 <esolangs> [[File talk:Dango Language Logo.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169724&oldid=169327 * Ais523 * (+139) now deleted
17:09:08 <esolangs> [[Underun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169725 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+628) Created page with "'''Underun''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. It combines the [[Unlambda operators]] <code>d & c</code> with [[Sea]]'s <code>&</code>, [[Underloads]] <code>() and ~</code> and a special operator <code>.</code>. == Rewrite rul
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17:09:24 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169726&oldid=169725 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0)
17:09:34 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169727&oldid=169726 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1)
17:12:41 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169728&oldid=169727 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+170) categories
17:13:24 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169729&oldid=169728 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2)
17:16:19 <esolangs> [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169730&oldid=169729 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+70) /* Rewrite rules */ add brackets and d as a rewrite rule
17:19:15 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169731&oldid=169577 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+14) /* esolangs */
17:20:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169732&oldid=108696 * Corbin * (+2816) /* Qualifying further additions */ new section
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17:20:28 <Yayimhere> How much agreement needs to happen before a category is created?
17:20:52 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169733&oldid=169731 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+11) /* esolangs */
17:20:54 <korvo> An admin needs to be okay with it, more or less.
17:21:34 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169734&oldid=169733 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* esolangs */
17:22:10 <ais523> it basically comes down to "will the admins, looking at the discussion, think it's unapproved"
17:22:30 <ais523> also whether the name is right, renaming a category is difficult so if one gets created at the wrong name it's best to delete it before it gets too many pages
17:22:34 <korvo> What categories are you itching for? I've been waiting for a while, but I've accepted that e.g. five is not enough for a category.
17:22:37 <Yayimhere> well then, do you think counter based is unapproved?
17:22:42 <ais523> no, I think it's approved
17:22:47 <ais523> but it'll be a lot of work to find all the pages that go there
17:22:58 <ais523> it was proposed a whlie ago, some people liked it, nobody disliked it
17:23:00 <Yayimhere> I can *try* and do *some* of that task
17:23:07 <ais523> there are plenty of languages that fit
17:23:25 <ais523> I'm not sure how long it'd take to go through the whole language list, we used to be able to do that but it's quite long nowadays
17:23:57 <ais523> don't try yet, we will want a precise definition on the category description page
17:24:05 <ais523> and then to add languages that fit the definition
17:24:22 <korvo> ais523: Perfect's the enemy of good; I agree with Keymaker that it can be done incrementally. There are many pages with redlinked categories. The Featured Article mechanism is meant to indicate that a page is perfect; otherwise, it's okay.
17:24:55 <korvo> TBQH just deleting [[language list]] would be a great move. It could be done today.
17:25:22 <ais523> this is one of the admin tasks I'd be doing if I had more capacity to concentrate (which I don't have right now, maybe later)
17:25:23 <int-e> TBQH = TBH + q = quite
17:25:34 <korvo> To Be Quite Honest. Just IRC slang.
17:25:35 <ais523> I've been awake for 17 hours already at this point and need to stay up a bit longer
17:25:56 <ais523> and 17 hours awake is not the right point at which to do complex admin actions
17:26:25 <korvo> Oh! No worries. I'm not asking for edits right now. Quoting Zen of Python, "Now is better than never. But never is often better than *right now*."
17:26:29 <Yayimhere> how do you have the ability to be on here like
17:27:26 <ais523> it's basically just idling, may as well have my client connected to IRC in case anyone says anything is better
17:27:37 <ais523> * anyone says anything intersting
17:27:43 <korvo> Because we're adults working at computers. People tend to have chat windows open when they work at computers. (If you want a wild rabbit hole, look up why stock traders and big bankers *cannot* have chat windows open. They do it anyway and often get in trouble for it.)
17:27:54 <ais523> OK so this is why you don't do complex things after 17 hours awake :-D
17:27:59 <ais523> that was quite the typo
17:29:25 <ais523> korvo: I should make a todo list for big esolang admin-related changes
17:29:42 <ais523> deleting the language list and replacing it with the semi-serious language list would, I think, be an improvement (and fix the silly name)
17:29:56 <korvo> Yayimhere: Not to recommend my career path, but by the time I was 17, I spent part of my school day in the computer lab, working to maintain several hundred Windows machines for my fellow students. Chat windows were a standard part of that.
17:29:57 <ais523> but that would mean being more careful about the SSLL's inclusion criteria
17:30:32 <ais523> Yayimhere: if you ever meet a sysadmin they will tell you not to become one yourself, korvo isn't the first sysadmin I've seen that sentiment from
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17:31:46 <korvo> ais523: I can start an articles-for-deletion-esque process. We'll start with stuff that ought to be deleted per policy: copyright violations, requested deletions, redirects from eso namespace. I don't want to start the whole dogpile system that WP uses, nor the whole secret-policing part of it.
17:32:02 <korvo> ...I'm always just a little slow with the typing.
17:33:06 <korvo> Yayimhere: So, there were other kids that also spent all day in the computer lab. The thing was, they were *using* it. Some of that was classes that we all took, like how to use word processors and spreadsheets. Some of it was for kids that were much more popular than me; in the USA we have "yearbooks" which record what happened, and there was a constructed popularity system that they were constantly managing for the yearbook.
17:34:03 <korvo> What I'm saying is that if you aim to maintain infrastructure, then you'll always be infra-; you'll always be working to support other folks. It's noble but also infuriating because your peers will take that infrastructure for granted.
17:35:29 <korvo> The tradeoff is in the name. A sysadmin knows about *systems*; that means disciplines like "systems thinking" and "distributed systems" which sound academic but are extremely relevant to today's interconnected world. Also, we are *administrators*; we have the responsibility of keeping things afloat, and with responsibility there comes the power of decision-making.
17:36:27 <korvo> Like, a non-trivial portion of why I'm allowed to just edit eso namespace and generally don't get reverted is because I understand what a system shaped like English WP is like, and I understand what it means to admin that sort of site. After being an admin for so long, I understand how to make non-admin changes to the system, too.
17:37:02 <korvo> I'm allowed to discuss power precisely because I'm not holding it. I'm allowed to be flippant about big decisions precisely because I can't actually flip the switches.
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17:39:00 <korvo> Yayimhere: Oh, and also, I *discuss* nearly everything I plan to do. If I'm going to write even 1000 chars, I will usually make at least a note in IRC first. I'll also plan it with a scratch pad sometimes, thinking about what to edit before I start editing.
17:39:25 <korvo> I recognize that this is part of the luxury of being in chat. That's also why I leave notes on talk pages for others.
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18:08:07 <b_jonas> “<korvo> it's not common to find folks who know what ‘dun’ means” => yeah, https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html sounds like it invented words for just the punchline
18:08:34 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169735&oldid=165367 * Aadenboy * (-1238) rewrite article
18:09:39 <int-e> Hmm do I bother with AoC this year?
18:10:43 <int-e> Might as well, I guess.
18:11:16 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169736&oldid=169022 * Corbin * (+1742) /* Completeness */ Mirror [[Turing tarpit]] more closely. Split into subsections. List open questions. These are off the top of my head and I may need to do another literature review.
18:12:56 <b_jonas> “*we* divide the opcodes […] based on whether * we* understand the effects of those codes.” => I think we divide opcodes (or sometimes full instructions) to defined and undefined based on whether we can trust that future CPUs won't behave completely differently on them. The undefined ones either ignore the prefix or some bits in them, or always trap.
18:13:22 <korvo> int-e: I'm going to save up my strength for the langjam. I'm currently at the same place as yumaikas in https://lobste.rs/s/gtcrvu/langjam_gamejam_build_programming#c_mbchk9 where I'm not sure if just building a Forth is okay.
18:13:50 <korvo> b_jonas: What a perfect reference. Nice memory.
18:15:02 <korvo> So, I think that humans doing something because of the current spec, like iterating on it to make a future spec, is still something that *we humans* are doing. It certainly is an oscillating action in spacetime: we influence the chips, the chips influence us, we influence the chips, etc.
18:17:23 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169737&oldid=169735 * Corbin * (+90) /* Usage */ Used in Laconic and NQL to write small Turing machines.
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18:20:30 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169738&oldid=169737 * Aadenboy * (+25) format as list + category
18:22:55 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169739&oldid=169738 * Aadenboy * (+11) /* Operations */ jank
18:24:39 <b_jonas> “*Why* did the study of Turing tarpits decline?” => I don't think it declined, because a lot of people seem to be interested in Brainfuck even today.
18:25:51 <korvo> Yeah. I think it shifted from being an academic study purely of Turing machines, to being a study of TMs and also Post machines and Minsky machines, to studying cellular automata as well, to the current day.
18:27:11 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169740&oldid=169739 * Aadenboy * (-29) /* Usage */ rewrite sentenceI think it's a queue?
18:27:21 <korvo> I suppose I'm looking for some strong statement like a 1967 paper saying "Following Böhm's 1966 theorem, we hereby abandon Turing machines in favor of flowchart programming", or a 1965 paper saying "Following the commercial explosion of MOSFETs, manual assembly of circuits appears destined for the museum halls"
18:30:01 <int-e> korvo: It's only 12 days now and I certainly won't rush it.
18:30:20 <int-e> Fun... I messed up the bonus part on the first try.
18:31:49 <korvo> Yayimhere: No worries. I'm only guessing based on the research that I've already done. It's frustrating because of what Robert Evans calls "the fact that back then there were only like a dozen guys who all knew each other", an instance of the Friendship Paradox.
18:32:52 <korvo> Lucky 10000 if you haven't seen this before, BTW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox It's the phenomenon that your friends are usually more popular than you. It's statistically true for most binary relations.
18:33:17 <Yayimhere> for some reason I have an urge to make an oisc instruction
18:34:25 <int-e> . o O ( which Robert Evans )
18:36:20 <korvo> int-e: Oh wow, there's even a disambiguation page. TIL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Evans_(journalist) this one, a journalist focused on investigating bad people. He podcasts roughly one biography per week, and one of the recurring themes of 20th century history is that some specific intermediaries keep showing up due to having massive social circles.
18:37:00 <int-e> korvo: I do know that one. And it did sound like something he'd say. I just didn't expect him to come up in a TCS context :P
18:38:22 <korvo> Yayimhere: Malbolge's OISC is actually a great example of how to go naturally to a ZISC. We might call the one instruction something like "Decrypt, Maybe Input, Maybe Output, Permute". The ZISC hardwires that one instruction.
18:38:38 <korvo> Because the OISC doesn't have any arguments, it might as well be a ZISC; that's what I mean by "natural".
18:39:57 <Yayimhere> now I actually came up with an interesting way of doing a conditional ZISC
18:40:16 <korvo> int-e: I know two English WP admins. The other is David Gerard. The common link is that I'm anti-crank, and that ends up intersecting with anti-grift and anti-TREACLES efforts, which heavily overlap with Evans' anti-fascist research. (I *am* anti-fascist, but for more definitional reasons.)
18:40:39 <b_jonas> I wish they studied a Tarpit that was at least somewhat better. Like BytePusher, though it's not technically a Turing Tarpit but an interesting OISC with bounded memory.
18:40:42 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169741&oldid=169740 * Aadenboy * (+246) /* Operations */ note about A_length
18:41:05 <korvo> Yayimhere: Well, this is all very natural. It's part of why I don't really like talking about ZISC as if it were active research; it's more like a perspective.
18:42:17 <korvo> Yayimhere: Say you've got a CPU, like the x86 or ARM in your current computer. We could say that it's an OISC in the sense that it has *one* behavior, something like "Fetch, Decode, ALU, Memory, Retire". Yes, that's just what the programmable pipeline does, but when it's hooked up to memory it cannot do anything else.
18:42:58 <korvo> And we can say that that's a ZISC since we can't change that one behavior; it's got *zero* programmability in terms of its circuits. The only thing that you can really change is the initial contents of memory.
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19:20:31 <esolangs> [[Nein.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169742&oldid=169700 * Ractangle * (+68)
19:21:19 <esolangs> [[Nein.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169743&oldid=169742 * Ractangle * (+1) i meant shown
19:25:15 <esolangs> [[Y/Y]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169744&oldid=163597 * Ractangle * (-144)
19:25:27 <b_jonas> "how you would create something that superficially seems like a borrow checker and can do a basic impression of its most common uses, and then breaks spectacularly when you try to use it for something more complicated" => don't allow reference members in user-defined algebraic types. that makes it much easier to implement the borrow checker and reason about it, but programs will have to do pointer to
19:25:33 <b_jonas> reference unsafe casts for most of the complicated uses. but I don't think this works as a joke.
19:29:02 <b_jonas> "People tend to have chat windows open when they work at computers." => which you can tell because a lot of the chat parts of the internet that I frequent are more active during weekdays when users are working, even though you'd expect that they're more active during weekend when they have free time.
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19:30:02 <b_jonas> I'm not a sysadmin and I'll also tell you not to become a sysadmin.
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19:30:36 <b_jonas> though admittedly my father is kind of a sysadmin, but he does the parts that avoid a lot of the drawbacks of being a sysadmin
19:35:00 <b_jonas> "Following the commercial explosion of MOSFETs, manual assembly of circuits appears destined for the museum halls" => true, there are no longer mostly american indian women working on weaving core memory arrays. only hobbyists make circuits by hand.
19:36:15 <b_jonas> (at least in the scale of tiny parts of circuits; my co-workers are still building large circuits for work but they are connecting big pre-manufactured parts with wires or cables, not soldering components onto a circuit board)
19:51:49 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169745&oldid=169741 * Aadenboy * (+4) fix expression
19:53:00 <esolangs> [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169746&oldid=169745 * Aadenboy * (-13)
20:00:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169747&oldid=169628 * Corbin * (+220) /* Should we make a category of speedlangs? */
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20:45:56 <esolangs> [[Dision]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169748&oldid=168877 * Buckets * (+2)
20:46:52 <esolangs> [[Esorn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169749&oldid=167899 * Buckets * (+0)
21:04:40 <esolangs> [[UnicodeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169750&oldid=167392 * Esolangist alt * (+1070) Esolangist alt
21:16:54 <esolangs> [[UnicodeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169751&oldid=169750 * * (+249) /* Basic Latin */