←2004-01 2004-02 2004-03→ ↑2004 ↑all
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22:56:27 <iYJ8Qc9m> moo moo cows moo
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22:56:54 <Taaus> That was very pretty, lament.
23:03:14 <lament> thanks! What?
23:04:29 <Taaus> The moo moo thing.
23:04:34 <lament> oh
23:04:35 <lament> yes
23:04:42 <lament> i planned it carefully
23:04:56 <lament> i didn't expect you'd guess it was me :(
23:05:45 <Taaus> Oh... Pretend I didn't notice, then.
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18:29:06 <deltab> 182601Z #freedesktop <mharris> Alan runs the hercules s390 emulator on an x86 box for a firewall
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04:56:08 <Toreun> anyone alive here?
04:56:23 <lament> no
04:56:50 <lament> this channel is for dead people only
04:56:55 <Toreun> just checking
04:57:01 <lament> don't worry
04:57:16 <lament> if anybody alive comes in, he'll be banned
04:57:31 <Toreun> phew I'm safe
05:00:53 <Toreun> how do you test for turing-completeness in a programming language? aside from making a universal turing machine in the language
05:01:43 <lament> writing an interpreter for some other language which was already proven to be turing-complete
05:01:54 <lament> brainfuck is often easy to write an interpreter for
05:02:25 <lament> or the universal register machine, which was used to prove turing-completeness of brainfuck itself
05:02:53 <Toreun> well, brainfuck is a UTM itself, essentially, isn't it?
05:03:24 <lament> um
05:03:30 <lament> no?
05:03:45 <lament> what do you mean, "is a UTM"?
05:04:05 <lament> (whatever you mean, it isn't)
05:04:29 <Toreun> well, a universal turing machine is a subset of brainfuck, isn't it?
05:04:32 <Toreun> or something like that
05:04:32 <lament> no.
05:04:34 <lament> no.
05:04:44 <Toreun> because I thought that brainfuck was just meant to emulate a turing machine
05:04:47 <lament> no.
05:05:07 <Toreun> oh?
05:05:34 <lament> yeah.
05:06:34 <Toreun> what other functions does a turing machine have, apart from the bf ones?
05:06:54 <lament> it's just completely different.
05:07:17 <lament> TMs have a bunch of states.
05:07:32 <lament> depending on the state, certain operations are performed.
05:07:55 <lament> Then the machine goes into a new state depending on the old state and on what symbol the reading head is looking at.
05:08:02 <lament> Brainfuck is nothing like that.
05:08:40 <Toreun> oh, ok
05:09:29 <lament> TM is generally harder to implement in a given programming language than Brainfuck
05:09:57 <Toreun> the difference between a UTM and a TM is that a UTM emulates a TM, am I right?
05:10:13 <lament> the whole terminology is extremely fucked up.
05:10:27 <lament> a TM is what we now would call a program.
05:10:35 <Toreun> ok
05:10:49 <lament> UTM is a program that can emulate the behaviour of any other TM
05:10:55 <Toreun> so that's just like a table of states, etc.
05:11:03 <lament> i.e. basically an interpreter for the (unspecified) language in which TMs are written
05:11:30 <lament> note that saying "a program for the Turing Machine" is incorrect
05:11:44 <lament> which sucks! but oh well
05:12:06 <Toreun> so wait, if I write a non-universal turing machine in a language, does it still make it turing-complete?
05:12:18 <Toreun> or prove that a program is equivalent to a turing machine?
05:12:56 <lament> no.
05:13:06 <lament> for example you can have a turing machine for adding two numbers together.
05:13:20 <lament> and you can write that in your programming language.
05:13:23 <lament> that proves nothing.
05:13:51 <Toreun> ah, ok, but if you write the program in such a way that it acts like a turing machine
05:14:07 <Toreun> or do you actually have to write a utm
05:14:26 <Toreun> (or something that is a superset/equivalent of a utm)
05:14:53 <lament> equivalent to UTM
05:15:11 <lament> so, an interpreter which can interpret programs which specify turing machines
05:15:24 <Toreun> yes
05:16:24 <lament> one of the machines it can act as, then, is the UTM itself.
05:16:44 <lament> bah! turing machines are boring
05:16:59 <Toreun> well, I'm trying to prove turing-completeness for an esoteric language
05:17:24 <Toreun> I'm pretty sure it is, but I want proof
05:18:41 <lament> actually implementing a "turing machine intepreter" is generally harder than other possible ways
05:19:02 <lament> depending on the language, either Brainfuck or SKI calculus will be easy to implement
05:19:24 <Toreun> SKI Calculus
05:19:28 * Toreun goes to look that up
05:19:48 <lament> combinatory logic.
05:20:21 <Toreun> ok
05:20:55 <Toreun> it looks like brainfuck would be easier to implement because I don't really wanna think enough to implement this...
05:25:11 <Toreun> well, I'm off to bed
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07:22:01 <lament> somebody actually came to #esoteric and asked questions.
07:22:05 <lament> First time ever.
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20:33:55 <Taaus> Any luck proving TC for your language, Toreun? :)
20:48:02 <Toreun> almost
20:48:06 <Toreun> I'm working on a BF interpreter
20:48:13 <Toreun> I've got tape operations down pretty well
20:48:33 <Toreun> the actual interpretation is the hard part though
20:48:52 <lament> what's your language like?
20:48:59 <Toreun> two dimensional, using a stack and a queue
20:49:50 <Toreun> with source editing possibilities
20:49:59 <lament> like befunge with an extra queue?
20:50:14 <Toreun> sorta, yeah
20:50:21 <fizzie> random stuff: I almost wrote a sed-based brainf*ck interpreter, but then I decided writing a befunge one would be more interesting. managed to implement [0-9], @ and +, then got bored.
20:50:37 <Toreun> I wanted it to have the functionality of funge 98, without such a big mess
20:50:54 <fizzie> (writing things in sed is _tedious_.)
20:51:10 <Toreun> well, it's better than malbolge :)
20:51:24 <lament> Toreun: brainfuck is probably not the easiest way to prove turing-completeness of that
20:51:28 <fizzie> marginally, yes. but it doesn't have numbers.
20:51:55 <lament> Toreun: first, you could write a translator from befunge to your language; that would prove it
20:52:10 <Toreun> well, it's not that similiar
20:52:21 <lament> Toreun: second, you could implement something like the game of life - probably easy with a 2d field and source editing
20:52:27 <lament> and game of life is TC
20:52:43 <Toreun> that's a good idea
20:52:51 <Toreun> but source editing isn't that easy
20:53:23 <lament> well, you judge
20:53:41 <Toreun> because when you want to edit the source, to get to the byte you want to edit, the editing pointer follows the normal execution path
20:53:43 <Toreun> if that makes any sense
20:55:00 <fizzie> (and sed's _slow_. it takes about 6.22 seconds to calculate the 20th fibonacci number using my recursive sed thing. sorry if I seem obsessed with sed. the 'language' haunts my nightmares.)
20:55:21 <Toreun> I haven't look at sed much to be cursed by it like that
20:55:44 <Toreun> though I woke up last night with an algorithm for reversing the queue in my language
20:58:38 <fizzie> er, with a stack and a queue, wouldn't the "obvious" way to do that be to stack everything from the queue to the stack, and then enqueue them back in the queue? (hee, that sounds fun. stack to the stack and enqueue in a queue.)
20:59:27 <Toreun> well, yeah
20:59:38 <Toreun> but I also have temporary memory locations
20:59:57 <fizzie> whoa, you seem to have everything.
20:59:58 <Toreun> and I have to deal with null bytes and stuff, and make sure I preserve the contents of all the other mem locations
21:00:19 <lament> your language appears to be too easy :)
21:00:23 <Toreun> it is quite easy
21:00:35 <Toreun> but I didn't design it to be hard
21:00:41 <Toreun> I designed it to be featureful
21:00:59 <Toreun> it supports recursive functions!
21:01:07 <fizzie> programming should be hard, otherwise anyone could do it. :p
21:01:28 <lament> featureful esoteric languages are kind of boring
21:01:43 <fizzie> how do you define functions in your 2d language? there was that talk re functions-in-befunge on esolang a while ago.
21:01:56 <lament> "my language can do this, and this, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that"
21:01:59 <lament> "it's called Java"
21:02:04 <Toreun> lol
21:02:13 <lament> esoteric languages should be minimal!
21:02:22 <Toreun> you don't really define functions, you define a character to do something
21:02:57 <fizzie> ah. please tell me you don't have 'fingerprints' for extensions too.
21:03:11 <Toreun> fingerprints?
21:03:22 <fizzie> like funge98 '(' and ')' instructions?
21:03:31 <Toreun> nope
21:04:34 <fizzie> phew.
21:04:43 <Toreun> I designed it specifically so it /wouldn't/ be the mess that funge98 was, but was as functional
21:06:01 <Toreun> yes, it is probably too easy to use
21:06:23 <Toreun> as far as esolangs go, at least
21:06:48 <fizzie> oh well, they can't all be malbolges.
21:08:47 <Toreun> yeah
21:13:14 <Toreun> at times like this, I am kinda regretting that it is this complicated... I am still not sure how I should store the instructions for brainfuck
21:13:49 <Toreun> I'm probably gonna end up just using source-editing, so I can have the stack for other things
21:14:08 <lament> instead of writing an interpreter
21:14:17 <lament> perhaps writing a compiler from brainfuck to your language would be easier?
21:14:27 <lament> (it doesn't matter what you write the compiler itself in)
21:16:49 <Toreun> well, there are no specified loops in my language, it's just changing the direction four times
21:17:48 <Toreun> that shouldn't be too hard though
21:18:04 <Toreun> though I liked the idea of having an interpreter interpret an interpreter
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21:18:24 <fizzie> infinite-sized plane?
21:18:29 <lament> hi hcf!
21:18:33 <hcf> hi lament
21:18:37 <Toreun> well, it's defined by the source originally
21:18:44 <hcf> these links may interest you
21:18:45 <hcf> http://wiw.org/~ams/projects/itch.html http://sed.sourceforge.net/local/scripts/turing.sed http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuringComplete http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LittleLanguage http://www2.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html http://www.nmia.com/~soki/turing/ http://www.unidex.com/turing/ http://www.cus.org.uk/~flagg/tacpprm/graffle/
21:19:02 <fizzie> eek! I see 'sed' there.
21:19:13 <lament> hcf: just how much free time do you have? :)
21:21:03 <Toreun> fizzie: ... but you could just add whitespace on the sides of the source to make it bigger
21:21:15 <fizzie> mm'k.
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21:21:41 <Toreun> I don't have an end execution instruction, it stops when it reaches the end of the source
21:22:41 <fizzie> are arbitrary jumps possible?
21:23:38 <Toreun> whattaya mean? like goto?
21:24:14 <fizzie> like that can't-remember-the-letter instruction in funge98 which pops the new delta vector from the stack.
21:24:28 <Toreun> I'm not sure what you mean
21:24:58 <fizzie> well, can you jump from (a, b) to (c, d) without arranging an empty path between them.
21:25:21 <Toreun> if you make two comment lines
21:25:50 <Toreun> comments vertically are not necessarily comments horizontally
21:25:58 <Toreun> so you could do that, and simulate an empty path
21:26:01 <fizzie> ah, a bit like funge98 ;.
21:26:11 <fizzie> (or was it ';'?)
21:26:26 <Toreun> I don't remember
21:36:22 <Toreun> hmm, I can't seem to find a good specification of funge-98
21:38:08 <fizzie> hm. the catseye page doesn't seem too alive.
21:38:18 <Toreun> yeah it's been down for quite awhile
21:38:28 <Toreun> and google doesn't even have a cache anymore
21:39:06 <Toreun> thanks to http://www.archive.org/
21:39:10 <Toreun> I'm able to find it
21:41:30 <Toreun> but... it seems to be slow, and the esoteric page isn't archived
21:44:18 <Toreun> but, yeah, comments in my lang are exactly like ; in funge98
21:44:20 <Toreun> I just checked
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21:54:59 <hcf> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/funge98-2003.0326/
21:55:54 <Toreun> catseye changed their url?
21:56:03 <hcf> it's not all there
21:56:18 <hcf> dunno if it's just a partial mirror or what
21:56:26 <Toreun> well, the index isn't there
21:57:25 <fizzie> what is this "hcf" thing? some kind of fairy godmother? someone needs a funge98 spec and then it joins out of the blue and gives an url. hm, lessee. "I lack a nice laptop." hmm? nothing happens...
22:00:17 <Toreun> heh
22:00:28 <hcf> fairy url service not fairy hardware service
22:00:38 <fizzie> aw. :(
22:00:51 <Toreun> hmm... I need a URL that gives me free hardware!
22:00:57 <Toreun> a URL for a website**
22:00:59 <hcf> damnit
22:02:25 <hcf> how about http://www.openhardware.net it's open as in free
22:02:44 <Toreun> damn! loophole!
22:03:50 <fizzie> "where was that website where they sent people apple powerbooks for free (without any form of payment, that is) when you entered your name and address?"
22:04:37 <Toreun> there was a site that got you a free Lindows PC if you lived in CA
22:04:38 <hcf> on Earth
22:04:45 <Toreun> (california, not canadia)
22:05:00 <fizzie> wrong continent.
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22:52:34 <Toreun> I've done it.
22:52:58 <Toreun> my esolang is turing complete
22:53:03 <lament> yay
23:10:07 <fizzie> next you need formal proof of correctness for your interpreter.
23:11:56 <Toreun> for which interpreter?
23:12:09 <Toreun> my brainfuck interpreter or my esolang interpreter?
23:14:56 <fizzie> well, optimally 'both'. first one to confirm the turing-completeness and the second one to make sure you have something to reliably run it on.
23:16:28 <Toreun> well, the first thing I should do is convert my esolang interpreter to some sort of compiled language
23:17:40 <fizzie> what's it written now in?
23:17:46 <Toreun> PHP
23:18:05 <Toreun> I would've done it in C but I like having automatic typecasting
23:18:18 <lament> gasp
23:18:19 <lament> php
23:18:21 <fizzie> ah. how peculiar. I haven't ever written non-web-related php.
23:18:26 <Toreun> I always do
23:18:33 <fizzie> actually I think my php doesn't have the cli module compiled in.
23:18:39 <Toreun> it's such an easy language to use
23:18:46 <Toreun> doesn't it come with it?
23:18:56 <fizzie> yes, but it's not compiled in.
23:19:04 <fizzie> felt it was unnecessary.
23:19:11 <lament> i thought php sucked.
23:19:45 <fizzie> I just think it's a bit boring language. it's not very special in any way.
23:19:57 <Toreun> yeah
23:20:12 <lament> fizzie: i thought it sucked in that it was designed for doing things that shouldn't be done
23:20:21 <Toreun> shouldn't be done?
23:20:22 <lament> (i.e. embedding code in html pages)
23:20:34 <fizzie> well, but you don't need to do that.
23:20:41 <Toreun> you think code shouldn't be embedded into html?
23:20:42 <lament> fizzie: that's what it was designed for.
23:20:50 <lament> Toreun: of course it shouldn't.
23:21:02 <Toreun> lament: why not?
23:21:40 <lament> Toreun: because the logic of an application is normally independent from its appearance
23:21:49 <Toreun> oh, that's what you mean
23:23:33 <fizzie> but I don't think people would guess the language was designed to be embedded in html pages, based on only the language.
23:24:05 <fizzie> if you don't count the "<?php" and "?>" parts as the language.
23:24:43 * lament shrugs
23:24:55 <lament> as far as i know, the whole design philosophy is based on that.
23:25:00 <Toreun> it's just a general purpose language, in my opinion... just for quick program development
23:25:05 <lament> i'm sure the decisions made were extremely far-reaching
23:25:23 <lament> and permeate the whole language
23:25:26 <fizzie> I don't see much "design philosophy" in php.
23:25:36 <lament> mind you, i don't know php, so i can't give concrete examples
23:25:40 <lament> fizzie: that's part of it :)
23:26:11 <Toreun> apart from the error outputting, which is in HTML, and the HTML/XML built in functions, it's not really /made for/ web development
23:27:05 <fizzie> generally I just think php is boring. it does the normal imperative programming basics. oh, there's something I dislike: the "object system", if it can be called that.
23:27:32 <Toreun> well, it is very primitive
23:27:48 <fizzie> verily, and quite obviously added as an afterthought.
23:27:55 <Toreun> but PHP 5 attempts to fix that
23:28:43 <Toreun> not successfully, of course
23:28:47 <fizzie> on the positive side, the few times I've written php the code hasn't turned out to look like line noise, which is what happens when I try perl.
23:29:19 <Toreun> in general, I find languages with a <=> operator are scary
23:29:53 <fizzie> for some reason with perl there's the subconscious urge to constantly do stuff like take advantage of the "$_" default-variable, and write lots of regexps.
23:30:22 <Toreun> I'm getting into regexp habits, even in PHP
23:30:35 <fizzie> but in php those are confined inside function calls.
23:30:38 <lament> that's also part of the design philosophy.
23:30:52 <fizzie> in perl the regexen are free and out there, ready to bite the programmer.
23:31:16 <lament> Toreun: of course php is made for web development
23:31:28 <Toreun> well, originally
23:31:29 <lament> "personal home page" means just that
23:32:18 <fizzie> official explanation goes that PHP is a recursive acronym for "PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor", actually.
23:32:25 <fizzie> web-development-related, still.
23:32:40 <lament> fizzie: the original name was the one i mentioned
23:32:54 <lament> but yeah, "hypertext preprocessor" isn't much better :)
23:33:12 <Toreun> the language really isn't anything special, so it isn't specialized for any one task
23:33:17 <lament> neither the hypertext nor the preprocessor part.
23:33:17 <fizzie> I wouldn't know, when I first heard about php it was 3.x already.
23:33:28 <lament> Toreun: why is it called "hypertext preprocessor" then?
23:33:51 <Toreun> I mean it's more general purpose
23:33:54 <lament> Toreun: are you sure it's not specialized for preprocessing hypertext? :)
23:34:07 <Toreun> it is meant to be, it's not very good at being specialized though
23:34:15 <lament> i see :|
23:34:22 <fizzie> well, it's trying to grow out of that.
23:34:33 <lament> so the only reason it's not specialized is because it tries to be specialized, and fails?
23:34:36 <lament> a great language, indeed.
23:34:55 <Toreun> well, it is just a general language that's pretty easy to use
23:35:17 <fizzie> actually I think it was designed originally to be specialized, and then they've attempted to revise/retrofit the language to be more general-purpose.
23:35:38 <fizzie> (just a guess, I haven't seen 1.x or 2.x versions.)
23:35:52 <Toreun> originally it was called phtml, wasn't it?
23:36:22 <lament> "PHP is a widely-used general-purpose scripting language that is especially suited for Web development and can be embedded into HTML"
23:36:27 <lament> from the php site.
23:36:41 <Toreun> that's just advertisement
23:36:58 <fizzie> also: " PHP is an HTML-embedded scripting language. Much of its syntax is borrowed from C, Java and Perl with a couple of unique PHP-specific features thrown in. The goal of the language is to allow web developers to write dynamically generated pages quickly."
23:37:02 <fizzie> from the faq.
23:37:10 <lament> Toreun: um.
23:37:29 <fizzie> considering that I use sed for general-purpose-stuff, I don't think I can judge people who use php.
23:38:16 <Toreun> really, I use whatever language that I'm most comfortable with at a given time for quick programs
23:38:48 <fizzie> they're definitely not trying to hide the web-development-aspect. also from the faq, "The biggest advantage of PHP over Perl is that PHP was designed for scripting for the web where Perl was designed to do a lot more and can because of this get very complicated."
23:39:18 <lament> hm
23:39:30 <lament> on the other hand, javascript was designed solely for client-side web page scripting
23:39:34 <lament> but it's a fairly nice language
23:39:54 <Toreun> I don't particularly like javascript
23:40:14 <fizzie> and sed was decided for stream editing ascii text, but it's a.. fairly.. nice.. oh, who am I kidding? it's horrid!
23:40:25 <lament> fizzie: :)))
23:40:33 <Toreun> fizzie: try the 12 step program
23:40:40 <Toreun> :-
23:40:49 <fizzie> mooz wrote a rather nice javascript befunge interpreter thing.
23:41:24 <fizzie> the interpreter functions are written in a "pseudocode-like notation", so to say, so the interpreter can be changed on-the-fly.
23:41:46 <fizzie> (the code it uses to execute befunge is in a textfield on the page containing the interpreter code.)
23:41:53 <lament> javascript has a very cute object system
23:42:13 <lament> and a nice, small core
23:42:28 <fizzie> (http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/jsbef/index.html if someone's interested)
23:44:30 <Toreun> that's a pretty complex interpreter
23:44:34 <deltab> http://uk.php.net/history
23:45:34 <deltab> originally 'Personal Home Page Tools'
23:45:51 <fizzie> yes, but you can easily add befunge commands by simply editing the stuff in the textfield.
23:46:15 <lament> the most i did in javascript was a thue interpreter.
23:46:24 <deltab> I don't think PHP is all that good for the sort of web development it's used for nowadays
23:46:29 <Toreun> hmm... I wonder if my lang is similar enough to befunge to use this interpreter
23:47:31 <lament> http://lament.hypermart.net/thue.html
23:48:16 <Toreun> I'm getting errors, lament
23:48:51 <lament> Toreun: you are also very informative
23:49:05 <Toreun> I'll try it on moz, and see if it works
23:49:13 <Toreun> but the animate button returned "Object Expected"
23:49:23 <Toreun> line 127 to be specific
23:49:33 <lament> i don't think it works at all
23:49:43 <fizzie> wonder if that jakarta tapestry thing is nice.
23:49:59 <lament> yeah, it isn't implemented
23:50:04 <fizzie> our "data structures" course exercise management system uses it.
23:50:13 <lament> probably becasue i didn't find how to do timers
23:51:05 <fizzie> javascript documentation is a bit messy. the core language has a nice, readable spec, but the objects provided by the browsers are less documented. outdated netscape docs turned out to be the best references, iirc.
23:51:30 <fizzie> this when I last tried to write something in javascript.
23:52:11 <lament> yeah, actually getting your program to output something is the most painful part
23:52:11 <Toreun> I've never really tried to write anything useful in javascript
23:52:50 * lament wonders if either the befunge or the thue interpreters qualify as useful
23:52:51 <fizzie> hm. that 'tapestry' framework sounds like a good idea, but it's java. java makes me feel queasy.
23:53:10 <Toreun> I can't stand java
23:53:13 <Toreun> it's too roundabout
23:53:17 <fizzie> well, I haven't even written a befunge interpreter. (in javascript, I mean.) poor me.
23:57:08 <Toreun> wow this befunge interpreter is really nice
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00:09:03 <fizzie> does any documentation/implementations/stuff for your befunge-like language exist in the interweb, btw?
00:09:20 <Toreun> not yet, no
00:09:33 <Toreun> but if you want, a rough version can in about thirty seconds
00:10:01 <fizzie> why not. I just explained it to mooz in a query, but realized I don't really know what it's like. :p
00:12:24 <Toreun> http://www.toreun.org/esolang.txt
00:12:56 <Toreun> oh wait, I think that has an error
00:13:19 <Toreun> ok, fixed it
00:14:35 <fizzie> btw, what languages do we have befunge interpreters in? I know of implementations in C, javascript, algol (algol60?), fortran (two, actually) and forth, plus two unfinished ones (sed, 6502-assembler-for-8bit-nes-nintendo). any others?
00:15:11 <mooz-> toreun; there's no command for a>b?
00:15:20 <fizzie> oh, apparently I've written a semi-working (no 'g' or 'p') interpreter in 31 lines of haskell.
00:15:29 <Toreun> nope
00:15:33 <lament> python
00:15:46 <Toreun> mooz-: it's not necessary
00:15:49 <lament> befunge
00:15:57 <mooz-> fizzie; z80 asm...
00:16:05 <lament> inform
00:16:19 <fizzie> mooz; good point.
00:16:20 <Toreun> a note, the d command does integer division
00:16:55 <mooz-> I made a multitasking befunge befunge interpreter, but it doesn't keep the processes' stacks separate yet, making it quite useless
00:17:04 <Toreun> so there's an easy way to do > and <
00:17:35 <mooz-> ah right
00:18:11 <fizzie> my glfunge98 knows how to multithread with separate stacks (using the funge98 multithreading instructions) but it's otherwise ultra-mega-sucky.
00:18:38 <mooz-> toreun; except that negative numbers require extra code
00:18:44 <mooz-> and zero, obviously
00:18:56 <Toreun> true
00:21:00 <Toreun> it's not like it's an all that complex algorithm, though
00:21:13 <mooz-> no, but it wastes space :)
00:21:51 <fizzie> so, am I reading the description right that / and \ change the directions like mirrors would do to a beam of light?
00:21:57 <Toreun> yeah
00:22:08 <fizzie> heh, nice.
00:22:50 <Toreun> thanks
00:24:10 <fizzie> that 'mouse' approach to playfield manipulation is quite interesting idea too.
00:24:37 <Toreun> it's hard to use well
00:24:43 <Toreun> it's there to make strings easier
00:25:19 <fizzie> mm.
00:27:37 <Toreun> hmm, I don't suppose I've clarified memory locations well in that text file
00:27:50 <Toreun> the buffer acts like a queue, but when you get data from it, the elements are concatenated
00:27:56 <Toreun> and the void is a stack with a max size of two
00:33:28 <fizzie> heh, it is esoteric at least.
00:33:50 <Toreun> yes, that it is
00:41:15 <Toreun> whattaya think of it, anyway?
00:43:14 <fizzie> well, I'd have to try use it before I could form a real opinion, and that's a project for another day. but I withdraw my complaints about the "oh-pfoo-too-easy" problem.
00:43:36 <Toreun> thanks
00:45:26 <Toreun> I'll upload the interpreter when I get a chance
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02:25:19 <Toreun> grr! my brainfuck interp has a really strange error!
02:27:01 <fizzie> my brain has the error "sleep underflow", it's 04:30 localtime and there's a maths lecture "tomorrow" at 08:00, so "g'night".
02:27:40 <Toreun> g'night (or morning, in your case)
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18:51:51 <mtve> fizzie: there are also befunge interpreters on perl, eta (esoteric) and befunge itself.
18:53:36 <fizzie> I think lament mentioned befunge.
18:54:22 <mtve> ah yep.
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20:24:46 <lament> heil!
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21:13:17 <calamari_> hi
21:14:08 -!- irc.freenode.net has set topic: Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Logs of previous discussion are available at http://www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:14:31 <calamari_> oops, I guess that's not the topic, is it? :)
21:16:46 -!- irc.freenode.net has set topic: Celebrate Mungday!.
21:28:51 <calamari_> I've been trying to understand lambda calculus, but it gets very confusing for me very quickly. Is it related to boolean algebra at all, or can it be expressed in those terms?
21:33:03 <Toreun> hello everyone
21:33:20 <Toreun> sorry calamari, I understand lambda calc as little as you...
21:36:38 <calamari_> It almost seems like it is just a bunch of functions where all the nice things are taken out like parenthesis and commas
21:37:02 <Toreun> well, from what I understand of it, it's where EVERYTHING is a function
21:37:07 <calamari_> But then it says it can use more and more memory as you go, and that seems weird
21:37:42 <Toreun> I dunno, my brain just doesn't like to think like that
21:38:33 <calamari_> hehe
22:57:34 <Toreun> well, for all those interested, http://www.toreun.org/eso.zip is the interpreter for my lang, and http://www.toreun.org/brainfuck is the directory with the source that proves its turing-completeness
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00:49:54 <Toreun> lament: my language interpreter and bf interpreter are up
00:50:46 <lament> yay
00:51:06 <Toreun> http://www.toreun.org/eso.zip that's the interpreter and http://www.toreun.org/brainfuck
00:51:34 <lament> is the language called eso?
00:51:39 <Toreun> nah
00:51:52 <Toreun> that's just the directory it's been in in my homedir
00:52:08 <lament> what is it called.
00:52:18 <Toreun> unless I can find some sort of recursive acronym or something that would make sense, I wouldn't want something so unoriginal
00:52:21 <Toreun> I haven't named it yet
00:53:32 <Toreun> can't think of anything that good
01:00:11 <lament> since when are the names of esoteric languages supposed to make sense? :)|
01:00:28 <Toreun> good point
01:02:48 <Toreun> well, still, I want a clever name or something
01:04:45 <mooz-> "a clever name" sounds good :)
01:05:23 <Toreun> too long...
01:08:41 <lament> "clever"?
01:08:53 <mooz-> clover
01:09:18 <Toreun> "pyrire"?
01:09:21 <Toreun> (rot13)
01:09:27 <fizzie> clver?
01:09:44 <fizzie> weird letters are good.
01:09:47 <Toreun> hold on... pyrire... is that a latin word?
01:09:59 <mooz-> it sounds almost french
01:10:16 <Toreun> well, -ire is a latin ending
01:10:22 <Toreun> and pyr- is a suffix meaning fire
01:10:54 <Toreun> what's that weird letter supposed to be? it's a 1/2 symbol, I dunno if that's right
01:11:06 <fizzie> it's the "oe" letter.
01:11:10 <lament> all the google matches are either "pyrite" typos, or rot13
01:11:21 <Toreun> hmm
01:11:39 <Toreun> I'll check my latin dictionary
01:13:05 <Toreun> nope
01:17:37 <Toreun> eso stranges o-something?
01:17:45 <Toreun> (for a recursive acronym)
01:18:07 <mooz-> ESO was the name for the OS that never became
01:18:17 <Toreun> it was?
01:18:29 <mooz-> well there were plans on the mailing list
01:18:42 <Toreun> 'the' os that never became?
01:18:53 <Toreun> I've made two kernels that never became
01:18:59 <mooz-> heh
01:19:28 <mooz-> I've written the textmode stuff for a movie OS :P
01:19:35 <Toreun> a movie os?
01:19:54 <mooz-> the kind that's in movies
01:20:11 <mooz-> the bootup looks like the start of the snes game megaman X, for instance
01:20:11 <Toreun> oh
01:20:46 <Toreun> I always figured those OSs were post-rendered videos...
01:20:53 <mooz-> they were
01:21:08 <mooz-> but they had some crazy ideas that would be nice to combine :)
01:21:26 <mooz-> mostly involving hacking
01:21:49 <Toreun> was this in an actual movie?
01:22:15 <mooz-> for example the gui absolutely must have a mode with a black bg and a dark green grid, then the widgets in bright green outlines and a _lot_ of hexadecimal mess
01:22:30 <lament> mooz-: that's Linux.
01:23:06 <fizzie> it's the unix system!
01:23:09 <lament> have a black background with dark green grid
01:23:11 <mooz-> the gui startup should be something as stupid in the movie hackers
01:23:17 <lament> run a transparent terminal on top of that
01:23:21 <mooz-> I thought about a rotating and wobbling smiley
01:23:24 <fizzie> hey!
01:23:28 <mooz-> whole screen-sized
01:23:32 <fizzie> I have an indy with irix-6.5.21 here.
01:23:32 <lament> show hex stuff in the transparent terminal...
01:23:39 <fizzie> I could run the jurassic park filemanager thingie.
01:23:46 <mooz-> mheh
01:24:14 <fizzie> iirc it was in freeware.sgi.com.
01:24:19 <lament> that's a classic.
01:24:56 <fizzie> does anyone happen to remember the name?
01:25:48 <fizzie> aw, "FSN only worked on IRIX versions 5.3 and below"
01:25:52 <mooz-> then I drew a gui that looks even more toy-like than windows XP
01:25:57 <mooz-> quux.befunge.org/leetos.gif
01:26:30 <fizzie> says the http://www.sgi.com/fun/freeware/3d_navigator.html
01:27:03 <fizzie> feh, *.befunge.org-redirects don't work from here.
01:27:27 <fizzie> and I think I've seen that pic. :p
01:28:06 <mooz-> but I drew it before aqua had come around, and it already has those silly color-coded buttons... only they're not round
01:28:26 <Toreun> I can't stand those color coded buttons that aqua has
01:28:37 <lament> mooz-: have you seen Squeak?
01:28:41 <mooz-> nno
01:28:54 <lament> i'm afraid it has you beat
01:29:01 <mooz-> oh dear
01:29:16 <lament> http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/uploads/683/squeak34-1600x1200.1.png
01:29:31 <lament> the entire system is written in itself (it's a smalltalk)
01:29:46 <Toreun> that's a screenshot?
01:29:49 <lament> yes
01:29:53 <mooz-> hnng
01:29:54 <Toreun> eww
01:30:04 <lament> i love that window at an angle
01:30:13 <lament> in squeak, you can rotate anything
01:30:23 <mooz-> but the windows aren't as playground-looking as mine
01:30:23 <lament> it's one of the basic methods of objects you can display on screen
01:30:26 <lament> that, and resize
01:30:30 <Toreun> I'd be afraid that something that colorful would bring upon epilepsy
01:30:46 <lament> well, it's insanely customizable
01:30:51 <Toreun> oh, ok
01:30:52 <lament> note that all windows have different decorations
01:31:03 <lament> it's done there just to show off obviously
01:31:15 <Toreun> well, I must be going
01:31:18 <mooz-> I was planning to make the system incredibly intuitive, like how the titlebar looks separate from the window... you could shake it around to loosen the window to windowshade it :P
01:31:35 <Toreun> I've got a report on the Canterbury Tales to write, due yesterday... bye
01:32:17 <lament> another screenshot of squeak
01:32:18 <lament> http://www.phaidros.com/DIGITALIS/images/sqk00050.gif
01:32:39 <lament> and another one
01:32:41 <lament> http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/2469
01:32:52 <lament> ones, rather :)
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00:33:28 <calamari_> hi
00:37:56 <calamari_> using c I could make a loop executing g() with void f() { g(); f() }, however, eventually the stack would overflow. I wonder if there's a way to avoid that without using "if" "while", "for", etc.
00:48:56 <Toreun> well, you would need a condition to test to use if/while/for
00:52:48 <calamari_> yeah.. I can't see a way around it
00:53:26 <Toreun> why not ditch C and use http://www.toreun.org/eso.zip! *g*
00:54:49 <calamari_> tereun: oh yeah I forgot to look at that last night ;)
00:54:57 <calamari_> do you have a webpage about it?
00:55:01 <Toreun> not yet
00:55:13 <Toreun> I'm gonna add it to my projects page on toreun.org, but I haven't done so yet
00:55:22 <Toreun> the specs are http://www.toreun.org/esolang.txt
00:55:54 <Toreun> and a sample (rather large) program is at http://www.toreun.org/brainfuck (it's the brainfuck interpreter for it)
00:58:27 <calamari_> interesting.. on first glance it looks like a mix between numberix and befunge
00:58:50 <Toreun> the idea for it was based off of befunge
00:58:53 <Toreun> but befunge is a mess
00:59:12 <calamari_> and that's not? lol
00:59:28 <Toreun> of course not! (because I can easily understand it)
00:59:36 <calamari_> eso. languages are supposed to be messy.. part of the fun ;)
00:59:56 <Toreun> I wanted this to look pretty cool without it being impossible to program in
01:01:51 <Toreun> now I just need a name
01:01:59 <Toreun> I'm thinking 'quack' because it has a queue and a stack
01:02:36 <Toreun> but that's taken
01:02:48 <Toreun> oh well
01:02:56 <calamari_> queer?
01:03:06 <calamari_> or quest, hehe
01:03:16 <Toreun> how'd ya get those?
01:03:50 <calamari_> or...!!
01:04:22 <calamari_> just bang the keyboard for a minute and the last thing you type is the name.. then make it into an acronym
01:04:46 <Toreun> well I'm trying to make 'eso' into an acronym, so I don't have to rename everything
01:05:05 <calamari_> eso is confusing, because that's the esoteric operating system project
01:05:17 <Toreun> oh yeah, forgot
01:05:25 <Toreun> http://www.ptf.com/ptf/products/UNIX/current/0401.0.html quest it seems is taken too
01:05:46 <calamari_> here you go then: jresbv
01:06:15 <calamari_> jolly really easy silly befunge variant? :)
01:06:37 <Toreun> it's not really easy, and it's hardly a befunge variant
01:06:58 <calamari_> lighten up or something, that was a joke :P
01:07:32 <Toreun> sorry, my sense of humor is gone with my homework I'm pretending I'm doing
01:07:40 <calamari_> I know that feeling
01:07:52 <calamari_> are you in hs or college ?
01:07:56 <Toreun> high school
01:08:10 <Toreun> grr one year left and then instead of homework I get papers to write!
01:08:52 <calamari_> I haven't written any major papers in college so far except for in my english classes.. pretty weird
01:09:03 <Toreun> what year are you?
01:09:11 <calamari_> Junior
01:09:15 <Toreun> hm, that is weird
01:09:27 <Toreun> everyone of my friends has had papers out the wazoo
01:09:28 <calamari_> I'm still at the community college tho..
01:09:32 <Toreun> oh
01:09:44 <calamari_> There are a lot of cs classes that transfer
01:09:55 <calamari_> (I've already done all the asm, c, java, etc)
01:10:03 <calamari_> data structures
01:10:13 <Toreun> I heard that CS programs in college start out really easy...
01:10:47 <Toreun> like, easy enough to warrant not needing to attend for the first semester
01:11:24 <calamari_> well... once I get to the university, there are only 8 classes I need to take. Only a few are required.. the rest are pretty much like pick 1 of 3
01:11:41 <Toreun> not bad
01:12:14 <Toreun> I'm prolly just gonna go straight to a university and do a computer engineering or comp sci program
01:12:35 <calamari_> I chose the ones that would be interesting to me.. esp. the areas I felt weakest in.
01:12:57 <Toreun> wow going to college to learn!?
01:13:07 <calamari_> if I'm gonna be paying the big bucks, you'd better believe it
01:15:57 <calamari_> ahh lets see here: oo prog, discrete structures, distributed programming, sys. programming, software eng., grammars, compilers (okay I so I don't need this one that bad), database design,
01:17:03 <calamari_> there are some really weird ones tho "computer graphics"? Maybe for game programming? Seems useless
01:17:19 <calamari_> not taking it obviously ;)
01:20:06 <Toreun> heh
01:21:06 <Toreun> I forget what university it is, but they offer a major in game development
01:21:17 <Toreun> or maybe its a school devoted to game design?
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01:52:07 <calamari_> bbl
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09:19:55 <deltab> yeah
09:20:12 <deltab> I uploaded it before you apparently disappeared
09:20:24 <deltab> http://yin.espnow.net/~deltab/tmp/javascript_disable_fixed.zip
09:20:34 <deltab> oops
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01:00:07 -!- lament has set topic: Celebrate Chaoflux!.
01:00:09 <lament> :)
01:06:07 <fizzie> where do all those holidays come from?
01:07:38 <lament> ddate
01:08:21 <fizzie> and why is it my imap server works perfectly, except that the "Sent" folder is broken now?
01:08:57 <lament> Chaoflux
01:13:22 <Taaus> Eee! How come I have ddate installed? Where did it come from? And why did I only find out about it now? To think of all the times I've looked up the current discordian date by hand... :(
01:13:41 <lament> heh!
01:13:54 <lament> afaik it's installed on the majority of linux systems
01:14:02 <Taaus> Oooh. The %. format option is neat :)
01:14:28 <fizzie> not on my slackware it isn't.
01:14:31 <lament> Umlaut Zebra ber alles!
01:14:33 <fizzie> well, wasn't.
01:14:39 <Taaus> Pzat!
01:14:44 <fizzie> wait.
01:14:44 <lament> Grudnuk demand sustenance!
01:14:48 <fizzie> actually it was!
01:15:16 <fizzie> straaange. installed only the few necessary packages, rest are hand-compiled. apparently it's deemed to be pretty important.
01:15:18 <Taaus> "Hail Eris, Hack Linux!" Haha!
01:15:39 <lament> heh heh
01:15:44 <lament> mine doesn't have that
01:16:50 <lament> it just has "Hail Eris!"
01:17:00 <lament> it hasn't been polluted by evil GREYFACE LINUX HACKERS
01:17:09 <Taaus> Fnord.
01:25:34 <fizzie> mine has both 'Hail Eris, Hack Linux!' and 'Hail Eris!', but now I'm trying to figure out how tcsh aliases play with quotation, to get a sensible default format.
01:28:06 <fizzie> ah, so that's how it works.
01:31:19 <lament> simply running tcsh is a lot more esoteric than running ddate on it
01:33:08 <fizzie> apparently (well, now-obviously) I need to double-escape everything, because tcsh will, when reading the command, strip off a layer of escapation, and there needs to be one left for the invocation.
01:33:19 <fizzie> besides, tcsh is the default shell at our university.
01:36:12 <fizzie> actually, unless I misremember, tcsh is the default shell both on the computing centre's servers and all the boxen of cs lab.
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22:13:47 * Daeken waves
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22:14:02 <lament> Welcome to the slowest channel on freenode :)
22:14:09 <Daeken> haha
22:14:38 <lament> We have logs to prove it's not dead
22:14:41 <Daeken> :P
22:23:15 <fizzie> but the link to logs isn't on the topic any more, thanks to you people being obsessed in remembering all the 'necessary' discordian holidays.
22:23:58 <lament> well, they are necessary
22:24:56 <Daeken> lol
22:27:33 <fizzie> well, I did add an invocation of 'ddate' to my .tcshrc. 'just in case.'
22:29:27 <fizzie> ooh. I can download the posix standards as .pdfs from ieee using our university's "ieee/iee electronic library (iel) online" subscription, since the student apartment network is included in their access list. must be downloading these now.
22:32:41 <fizzie> I.. think this document has multiple pages.
22:34:19 <fizzie> by 'multiple' I mean 3678.
22:41:53 <mooz-> ...how big is the pdf?
22:42:33 <fizzie> 1976123+1704241+6803084+5104705 bytes. (it has 4 parts.)
23:24:51 <fizzie> of course the index doesn't include links to the content, even though it's a pdf, and the page numbering of the pdf doesn't match the numbering used in the contents, thanks to introductionary pages marked with roman numerals.
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23:39:05 <hcf> the logs url is given in the notice from chanserv when entering and is given by /whois clog
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23:49:09 <fizzie> what, _again_ that guy?
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02:45:38 <lament> does esolang keep archives anywhere?
02:46:01 <lament> there used to be one huge file somewhere
02:46:09 <fizzie> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ perhaps?
02:46:32 <lament> sweet!
02:49:36 <Taaus> P'tang!
03:01:11 <lament> found it :)
03:01:12 <lament> http://mirge.net/~lament/summer.txt
03:04:14 <fizzie> but it's not nearly summer yet.
03:04:29 <lament> Yeah, and another summer 2002 won't come in a while
03:04:34 <lament> s/in/for
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07:38:05 -!- Eris has set topic: Discordianism is off-topic in this channel. Anybody discussing it will be banned..
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07:38:20 <lament> bah
07:38:30 <lament> it gives my hostmask
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21:29:51 <Taaus> \def\hand{$-\!\!\!-\!\!\!\!\!\succ\!\!\!\!\prec\!\!\!\!\!-\!\!\!-$} % Hail Eris!
21:33:35 <lament> !!
21:43:09 <lament> unhail
21:43:33 <Taaus> Unhail Aneris?
21:44:09 <lament> yes.
21:44:29 <Taaus> Fair enough, I guess.
21:44:38 <lament> nothing is fair.
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21:47:34 <Riostradh> amazing.
21:48:15 <fizzie> is it just my imagination or is #scheme being marginally stranger than it usually is?
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21:48:33 <Taaus> I think Riastradh blew a gasket.
21:48:45 <lament> he's a teacher, right
21:48:50 <lament> that happens to teachers.
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03:10:42 <lament> HERE LIES LESTER MOORE
03:10:42 <lament> SHOT 4 TIMES WITH A .44
03:10:42 <lament> NO LES
03:10:42 <lament> NO MOORE
03:10:42 <lament> -- tombstone, in Tombstone, AZ
03:11:06 <Taaus> Pretty.
03:13:24 <Taaus> Hmm... Is it normal to feel like clobbering yourself to death when you're programming in C?
03:14:18 <lament> ask in #C
03:14:25 <lament> i'm sure the answer will be "yes"
03:14:31 <Taaus> :/
03:14:54 <lament> well, i don't know really
03:14:56 <lament> C isn't malicious
03:15:10 <lament> unlike some other languages, it doesn't actually want you to go insane
03:15:22 <Taaus> It's forcing me to write unsafe code. As far as I can see, anyway.
03:15:57 <Taaus> You mean insanity is just a nice bonus? :)
03:17:22 <lament> is it really unsafe?
03:17:42 <Taaus> Well, it's potentially unsafe.
03:17:54 <Taaus> I'm forced to use casting.
03:18:27 <lament> oh no!!!!
03:18:37 <Taaus> Indeed. That was my reaction.
03:19:44 <lament> In a well designed C program, you don't need casting.
03:19:52 <lament> In a well designed C program, there's only one data type.
03:20:10 <Taaus> What, char? :)
03:20:19 <lament> void
03:20:35 <Taaus> Eh.
03:20:46 <Taaus> That's just sick :)
03:36:24 <lament> more languages should have a void datatype
03:39:47 <Taaus> Why?
03:39:54 <lament> Why not?
03:40:19 <Taaus> Because it's unnecessary?
03:40:26 <lament> how so?
03:41:20 <Taaus> Explain to me how a language with no void datatype would benefit from having one.
03:50:44 <lament> religious significance.
03:51:01 <lament> And it sounds really cool.
03:51:14 <Taaus> Mmmkay... I think that's my cue to head off to bed. :)
03:51:19 <lament> you could Cast thinsg Unto The Void
03:52:18 <lament> java's Object is pretty much void, actually
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18:39:26 <fizzie> yay. I just wrote my first brainf*ck program.
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20:06:29 <fizzie> interesting. ircnet gets the 'quit reasons get "s automagically' feature.
20:07:56 <lament> freenode is in fashion now!
20:08:21 <fizzie> few finnish ircnet servers just restarted with the updated ircd.
20:08:42 <lament> but it's not dancer, is it?
20:08:57 <fizzie> no, of course not.
20:08:59 <fizzie> it's ircd. :p
20:09:50 <fizzie> another feature they added is that the command "POST" will be an alias for "QUIT", so you can't abuse www-proxies to irc any longer.
20:10:07 <lament> hm
20:10:10 <lament> what's POST?
20:10:23 <fizzie> POST is a HTTP method.
20:10:50 <lament> what does it have to do with IRC then?
20:11:03 <fizzie> most proxies don't let you use 'CONNECT', so you need to trick them with 'POST', but then you end up saying 'POST' to the irc server too.
20:11:06 <fizzie> so it immediately quits.
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22:58:35 <fizzie> re our topic, it's st. tib's day at least in our timezone.
23:06:24 <fizzie> whoa!
23:06:27 <fizzie> ddate(1) will produce undefined behaviour if asked to produce the date for St. Tib's day and its format string does not contain the St. Tib's Day delimiters %{ and %}.
23:06:30 <fizzie> indeed!
23:06:35 <fizzie> [1:07:11] fizban@colin ~> /usr/bin/ddate +"It's the %e of %B, %Y. %. %NCelebrate %H."
23:06:38 <fizzie> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
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←2004-01 2004-02 2004-03→ ↑2004 ↑all