←2009-10 2009-11 2009-12→ ↑2009 ↑all
2009-11-01
00:01:38 * SimonRC goes
00:02:32 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, re LFS: I might, but I imagine that most of what I pick up will be stuff that doesn't matter due to my design choices (e.g. dynamic linking issues)
00:12:28 <ehird> 11:21:44 <AnMaster> why is there a status setting thingy at the top of it
00:12:28 <ehird> 11:21:48 <ais523> for IM clients
00:12:28 <ehird> and email.
00:12:39 <ais523> email has online/offline?
00:12:44 <ehird> oh
00:12:45 <ehird> i see, that one
00:12:50 <ehird> (i thought he meant the messaging menu)
00:12:56 <ehird> which is linked to it
00:13:12 <ehird> 11:24:20 <AnMaster> ais523, argh: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-applet/+bug/447964
00:13:12 <ehird> 11:24:34 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems linked to evolution, But it is in the indicator applet thingy
00:13:13 <ehird> 11:24:42 <AnMaster> which iirc is used for other (useful) stuff
00:13:13 <ehird> The messaging menu IS useful.
00:13:21 <ehird> 11:25:24 <ais523> it's empathy it's linked to, not evolution
00:13:21 <ehird> 11:25:29 <ais523> oh, the letter icon
00:13:22 <ehird> 11:25:36 <ais523> that means new mail arrived, I think
00:13:22 <ehird> or new IMs
00:13:27 <ehird> or someone signed in recently
00:13:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:14:00 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't like that VM has evolution set up or anything
00:14:04 <AnMaster> nor any IM
00:14:08 <ehird> Just remove it from the panel.
00:14:10 <ehird> Easy.
00:14:15 <ehird> No need to uninstall anything.
00:14:17 <ehird> Right click.
00:14:17 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it used for other stuff?
00:14:20 <ehird> No.
00:14:22 <AnMaster> mhm
00:14:30 <ehird> The indicator applet is the meessaging menu.
00:14:33 <ehird> *messaging
00:14:53 <ehird> Well
00:14:57 <ehird> "A small applet to display information from various applications consistently in the panel.
00:14:58 <ehird> The first revision is focusing on messaging applications. The design specification for the messaging component is available at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu/"
00:15:05 <ehird> So currently it's just for email and IM, but it won't be later.
00:19:15 <zzo38> Is the uber-jackal effect in ADOM too weak?
00:19:28 <ehird> Yes.
00:21:31 <zzo38> I don't know, if ever, if they will ever release the source-codes for ADOM or not.
00:23:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Can KDE3 desktops view a special desktop with all desktops combined?
00:23:22 <ehird> dwm can (Mod+0)
00:23:39 <zzo38> What is dwm
00:23:43 <ehird> A window manager.
00:24:02 <zzo38> O, now I found it. But at first I didn't have the browser open
00:24:02 <AnMaster> ehird, no. Where would one have place for it?
00:24:14 <AnMaster> that's... so zzo
00:24:18 <ehird> AnMaster: What does that mean?
00:24:24 <ehird> Where would one have place?
00:24:25 <ehird> What?
00:24:35 <AnMaster> ehird, view all? at the same time? on the same monitor
00:24:41 <AnMaster> some compiz like zoom?
00:24:50 <ehird> It just arranges all the windows together in dwm.
00:24:52 <zzo38> I look it seems is not too bad
00:24:58 <zzo38> It would be good
00:24:59 <ehird> In dwm, tags are as much an organisational tool as a screen extender.
00:25:20 <zzo38> However, still if I write, I would write my own, however. (But I might based on others window managers)
00:25:36 <ehird> (you can name the tags too)
00:25:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be hard to see them all?
00:25:51 <AnMaster> if there are many
00:25:52 <AnMaster> like
00:25:56 <ehird> Sure, they'd be quite small.
00:25:59 <ehird> But it's a useful overview.
00:26:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so less useful than, say, Exposé?
00:26:20 <ehird> It's not for the same purpose as Exposé.
00:27:25 <AnMaster> oh?
00:27:40 <ehird> The error is in thinking that a tag is a desktop, instead of a means of organising.
00:27:53 <ehird> Yes, it lets you organise a windowspace bigger than your screen could handle for using an individual window.
00:28:03 <ehird> But it's also about grouping related windows, which is why you can apply multiple tags.
00:28:20 <ehird> So mod+0 is like looking at the "actual workspace" that you're organising: you can see every window you have.
00:28:33 <ehird> Useful if, for instance, you want to make two windows interact briefly.
00:29:06 <ehird> Incidentally, dwm is a perfectly capable floating WM too.
00:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you would like gentoo's init system. Quite sane. dependency based. Doesn't use classical run levels much (nothing you think of as an user). Uses instead named ones. "boot" and "default" only normally
00:29:15 <AnMaster> yes still sysvinit but you can replace it
00:29:19 <AnMaster> with runit or others
00:29:24 <AnMaster> more or less supported
00:29:28 <ehird> (a proper floating WM that is)
00:30:05 <ehird> you have to bring windows to the top with the keyboard, but you can mod+drag to move, and it's sloppy focus (hover to focus)
00:30:44 <ehird> The benefits are obvious — the dwm config lets you set certain programs to appear in a separate workspace and with different layouts.
00:30:52 <ehird> So you could have a workspace for running the GIMP in floating mode.
00:30:54 <ehird> Voila, no problems.
00:31:22 <ehird> (Plus it means ex-evilwm junkies can cope. :-P)
00:31:38 <AnMaster> never used evilwm. tell me about it
00:32:05 <ehird> It's just a very minimalist floating manager with no window decorations apart from a one pixel border.
00:32:11 <ehird> http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/images/cap1.jpg may ring a bell.
00:32:29 <AnMaster> can't say it does
00:32:35 <ehird> http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/
00:32:39 <ehird> fizzie used it I believe.
00:33:01 <AnMaster> that is the official screenshot?
00:33:08 <AnMaster> no wonder it isn't popular
00:33:09 <AnMaster> XD
00:37:03 <AnMaster> "The launchd daemon is essentially a replacement for init, rc, the init.d and rc.d scripts, SystemStarter"
00:37:05 <AnMaster> um yeah
00:37:06 <AnMaster> BUT
00:37:09 <AnMaster> rc links to
00:37:16 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_security
00:37:18 <AnMaster> what the hell
00:37:29 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
00:37:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
00:37:38 <ehird> dunno
00:37:45 <AnMaster> night
00:37:51 <AnMaster> make that
00:37:56 <AnMaster> night →
00:39:22 <ehird> Incidentally, I rewrote my silly ii script in rc:
00:39:24 <ehird> #!/bin/rc
00:39:25 <ehird> for (line in `{ tail -n 0 -f out }) {
00:39:25 <ehird> if (echo $line | cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null) {
00:39:25 <ehird> echo Ding! >in
00:39:25 <ehird> }
00:39:26 <ehird> }
00:39:33 <ehird> Erm, wait
00:39:35 <ehird> I need to set ifs
00:39:47 <ehird> #!/bin/rc
00:39:47 <ehird> ifs='
00:39:47 <ehird> '
00:39:48 <ehird> for (line in `{ tail -n 0 -f out }) {
00:39:48 <ehird> if (echo $line | cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null) {
00:39:48 <ehird> echo Ding! >in
00:39:50 <ehird> }
00:39:52 <ehird> }
00:40:09 <ehird> More readable, methinks, than the sh version:
00:40:11 <ehird> #!/bin/sh
00:40:11 <ehird> tail -n 0 -f out |
00:40:11 <ehird> while read line; do
00:40:11 <ehird> if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then
00:40:11 <ehird> echo "Ding!" >in
00:40:12 <ehird> fi
00:40:14 <ehird> done
00:40:23 <ehird> In fact, I could simplify it further, I think.
00:41:12 <zzo38> Some window managers use alt+drag to move window, but I think only the window manager's key should be used by the window manager. (Which key it is could be configurable in the configuration file)
00:41:25 <ehird> It's set in config.h with dwm.
00:41:28 <ehird> Mod is alt by default.
00:41:53 <zzo38> Like, I think the LOGO key should be used by default, but if you don't have that key you could use PRINTSCREEN instead, for example.
00:42:32 <ehird> Nah, my simplification made it less readable (I changed:
00:42:38 <ehird> if (echo $line | cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null) {
00:42:39 <ehird> to
00:42:48 <ehird> if (`{ cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null } <<< $line) {
00:42:50 <ehird> which is worse.)
00:43:02 <fizzie> I used evilwm, yes; I'm not sure I used it on the main desktop (might have, though), but definitely on that one low-end laptop.
00:43:10 <fizzie> It does the "configure by twiddling the source" thing too.
00:44:21 -!- ehiird has joined.
00:44:22 <ehird> Well, there's a proper config.h with dwm.
00:44:27 <ehird> So it's not like you're editing hardcoded things.
00:44:42 <ehird> rheet
00:44:45 <ehird> rheeet
00:44:47 <ehird> aww
00:44:54 <zzo38> It is not too bad
00:45:03 <ehird> how can you say that without using it?
00:45:10 <ehird> test
00:47:29 <zzo38> One pixel border is enough (like evilwm and dwm both has). Resizing can be done with wm's key and left button for floating windows, wm's key with right button for tiled windows, and wm's key with middle button to move. For keyboard operation, you can just use wm's key in combination with some other keys (such as arrow keys)
00:48:17 <ehird> Why have separate buttons for tiling windows only
00:49:00 <zzo38> So that the windows do not have to designated tiled/floating, you can just use them in both ways. So, you can easily switch and stuff however you prefer
00:49:15 <zzo38> Just if you use tiled resize, it will also resize the other windows with adjacent borders too
00:49:23 <zzo38> That's how I would write it, anyways.
00:49:29 <fizzie> There's a sort of a configuration section in evilwm.h too, though it's pretty small and the file contains a lot of other crap, too. Oh, and keyboard bindings are in keymap.h which is pretty editable. (Pretty strangely, though, the combination of modifiers is not configured there, but instead there's a command line flags (-mask1, -mask2, -altmask) to define those.)
00:49:34 <fizzie> Asleep now, though.
00:49:38 <ehird> In dwm, moving or resizing a window makes it floating.
00:49:55 <ehird> The only resizing you can do for tiling windows is to make one of the two columns bigger or smaller.
00:50:11 <ehird> And moving is handled merely by making something either the main window or secondary.
00:50:22 <ehird> I've never felt the need to manually manage any tiling windows.
00:50:50 <zzo38> OK
00:51:32 <ehird> It does do mod+right click to resize a floating window, though; never thought to try that.
00:52:48 <ehird> zzo38: Also, middle button drags are awkward, since it's usually a clickable mouse wheel.
00:53:40 <zzo38> Yes, I know, but I never use the wheel, I only use it to click
00:53:52 <zzo38> I don't like the wheel there
00:53:54 <ehird> The web is unusable without the wheel.
00:53:58 <ehird> Or, really, any long document.
00:54:01 <zzo38> Sometimes it is accidentally pushed in one direction or the other
00:54:07 <ehird> Not if it's a good mouse.
00:54:12 <ehird> They have good resistance.
00:54:19 <zzo38> No, I use the web without the wheel. I use the page-up/page-down keys to navigate through the document
00:54:38 <ehird> That just gives me a headache and pisses me off as I try and find where I left off in the last page.
00:54:46 <ehird> Plus I can't scroll things nicely in my line of sight without a pain.
00:55:26 <AnMaster> bah can't sleep
00:55:35 <zzo38> I could drag the scrollbar or use the up/down arrows too if I need more precise scrolling. Another thing I sometimes do, is click and hold the scroll bar and then use either the mouse or keys to scroll, and then move the mouse away from the scroll-bar to return
00:55:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> while read line; do
00:55:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then
00:55:40 <AnMaster> usless
00:55:42 <AnMaster> useless*
00:55:48 <AnMaster> set IFS and do it all in read
00:55:52 <AnMaster> no need for cut
00:55:53 <zzo38> At least this works in Windows. Not sure about Linux
00:56:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Um, do feel free to rewrite that with IFS.
00:56:17 <AnMaster> ehird, IFS and read -d of course
00:56:18 <ehird> zzo38: Dragging the scrollbar is the same as flicking the wheel except more of a pain
00:56:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I will tomorrow
00:56:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Congratulations, the Unix philosophy weeps at your desire to make everything in one program
00:57:01 <ehird> Is it possible to avoid using PAM with recent kernels?
00:57:04 <AnMaster> ehird, when coding python I tried to make all functions as few lines as possible.
00:57:12 <AnMaster> ehird, PAM is not related to kernel afaik
00:57:13 <ehird> That's nice, AnMaster.
00:57:17 <zzo38> Not to me. I would rather have a mouse without a wheel if I could get one
00:57:34 <ehird> zzo38: I'm just saying that you should consider that most people like their wheel before assigning things to the middle button.
00:57:36 <AnMaster> and night, *tries to sleep again* →
00:57:37 <zzo38> I prefer to use the middle button as a middle button
00:57:58 <zzo38> Otherwise you have only two buttons
00:58:08 <AnMaster> wait what
00:58:19 <ehird> zzo38: Clicking with the middle wheel is easy.
00:58:23 <AnMaster> I use scrollwheel as scrolling and clicking it for paste
00:58:23 <ehird> zzo38: But clicking and dragging is not.
00:58:24 <AnMaster> ...
00:58:30 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed
00:58:40 <lament> clicking and dragging is hot.
00:58:41 <AnMaster> tilting it for scrolling sideways
00:58:42 <ehird> You just have to avoid middle-click-drag motions, not middle-clicks.
00:59:00 <AnMaster> ehird, clicking and dragging isn't *too* hard
00:59:04 <AnMaster> a bit irritating
00:59:06 <AnMaster> but can be done
00:59:08 <ehird> It's something to consider.
00:59:45 <zzo38> I can certainly consider it. But, if someone doesn't like the way I wrote it, they can change it themself
01:00:06 <AnMaster> oh yeah I bet you will have a config option for it :P
01:00:15 <AnMaster> night *tries again dammit*
01:00:16 <zzo38> I don't need to avoid middle-click-drag
01:00:23 <ehird> Personally I'm happy that I don't need to rewrite every piece of software before using it because compromises have been made for other people.
01:00:35 <ehird> And thank $DEITY for that.
01:01:17 <pikhq> I use the web without the wheel. Of course, I have mouseless link-following, so it's a bit more usable...
01:02:04 <zzo38> When I write software, it is generally written for groups of people who prefer it this way, including (but not necessarily limited to) myself. And, it can be Free Software/Open Source so that other people can even modify it, too.
01:02:32 <ehird> The hardest part with a distro is that compiling the kernel is a must to get it going, but you'll need to do it over and over and over and over and over and over again.
01:02:32 <zzo38> There is a large number of various different software
01:02:38 <zzo38> You can find a different software, too.
01:08:32 -!- madbrain has joined.
01:09:00 -!- sierinjs has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:10:52 <ehird> i wish dwm let you name tags at runtime, although it'd probably be a pain to manage
01:19:21 <ehird> Woot, at works perfectly
01:22:14 <ehird> Pretty sure using at is kinda overkill for a clock, though
01:22:37 <ehird> Could just, you know, have a sleeping process
01:22:41 <ehird> Does anyone actually use at?
01:22:56 <ehird> Still, at least the script is quite nice:
01:23:01 <ehird> now=( $(date +'%H %M') )
01:23:01 <ehird> h=${now[0]}
01:23:01 <ehird> m=${now[1]}
01:23:02 <ehird>
01:23:02 <ehird> if [ $m = 59 ]; then
01:23:03 <ehird> h=$((h + 1))
01:23:04 <ehird> m=0
01:23:06 <ehird> else
01:23:08 <ehird> m=$((m+1))
01:23:10 <ehird> fi
01:23:12 <ehird>
01:23:14 <ehird> at $(printf %02i%02i $h $m) <<EOF
01:23:16 <ehird> xsetroot -display :0 -name $h:$m
01:23:18 <ehird> bash /home/ehird/foo
01:23:20 <ehird> EOF
01:23:44 <ehird> well, actually, the version the VM is running has no space in the h= line's $((...)), but that's... quite minor
01:25:24 <Sgeo> Why do virtual worlds die?
01:25:32 <Sgeo> Cybertown, I blame on IVN
01:25:45 <Sgeo> AW, I can blame on the insane price increase in 2002
01:26:06 -!- zzo38 has quit ("The next-to-last (and only) movement was a one-voice fugue.").
01:26:13 <Sgeo> But why Worlds.com ? They were active in 2001. No price increases, no new limitations on what non-payers can do
01:26:22 <Sgeo> Go there now, and there's no one there
01:26:28 <ehird> because everyone playing them left high school and realised they sucked
01:27:53 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I can't imagine SL living on with maybe only 113 people online at a time
01:28:15 <Sgeo> (That's how many people are on AW right now)
01:29:04 <Sgeo> SL servers use more computational resources than AW servers (I think). I can't imagine SL staying alive with as few users as AW, or CT, or Worlds.com
01:29:48 <ehird> soon SL will die too.
01:30:16 <Sgeo> ehird, and my fear is that when SL loses members, the servers themselves will shut down.
01:30:23 <Sgeo> Everything will be inaccessible
01:30:24 <ehird> Yes they will.
01:30:36 <Sgeo> AW still has (a few) users, the servers are still running
01:30:40 <Sgeo> Same with CT, same with Worlds
01:30:55 <Sgeo> But I can't see SL surviving in the same way
01:30:55 <ehird> SL, on the other hand, is a business that isn't on crack and is making money.
01:31:03 <ehird> The others are steadily draining cash, yum yum.
01:31:07 <ehird> They'll die soon too.
01:31:10 <ehird> Eventually.
01:31:37 <Sgeo> I doubt that CT, AW, and Worlds take as much money to run as SL
01:31:50 <Sgeo> I'd imagine that CT particularly is very cheap
01:32:02 <Sgeo> Just a webserver, and an ancient Blaxxun Community Server thingy
01:32:37 <Sgeo> (Didn't stop them from moving to a subscription model, turning CT from a thriving community to a ghost town)
01:34:48 <ehird> Wow, I forgot that xterm had a menu.
01:35:08 * Sgeo has a plan that would allow the AW community to preserve all the buildings for private exploration if AW ever shuts down
01:35:28 <Sgeo> Requires a bit of reverse-engineering though.. although it's reverse-engineering that's been done before
01:44:52 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:48:52 <ehird> "I've never quite figured out Google's interface. I just wait for the lmgtfy links." —reddit
01:54:05 * oerjan failed to avoid a facepalm there
01:56:23 <Sgeo> ehird, it's a joke... I hope
01:56:36 <ehird> Sgeo: Did I imply it wasn't?
01:56:49 <Sgeo> Why did oerjan facepalm?
01:57:03 <ehird> Because.
01:57:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: Reflex.
01:58:16 <oerjan> a learned reflex, it would seem, since i never did it before getting here...
02:13:31 <ehird> yo
02:15:49 <oklopol> wait you physically facepalm?
02:16:11 <oklopol> i didn't know that's also a real life thing, thought it was just a word
02:16:24 <ehird> http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/1582/original/picard-facepalm.jpg
02:16:45 <oklopol> umm star trek isn't real life
02:16:46 <oklopol> ...
02:16:48 <oklopol> fucking nerds
02:17:05 <ehird> i was giving an example, mr whiney bitch mcbitcherson
02:19:02 <oklopol> WELL EXCUSE ME FOR BEING A FUCKING RETARDED BITCH
02:19:22 <ehird> NO WAY
02:19:24 <ehird> I WILL GENOCIDE YOU
02:19:28 <oklopol> GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH
02:19:36 <oklopol> so i have this binary linear code
02:19:37 <ehird> RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
02:19:40 <ehird> right
02:19:41 <ehird> and?
02:19:53 <oklopol> word length 7
02:20:05 <oklopol> and there are exactly 7 words of weight 3
02:20:21 <oklopol> need to prove 1111111 belongs to the code
02:20:51 <oklopol> i would ask #math but nobody knows anything there
02:20:53 <oklopol> :\
02:21:02 <oerjan> you'll have to define some terms...
02:21:05 <oklopol> alrighty
02:21:08 <oklopol> linear code?
02:21:17 <oerjan> for a start :D
02:21:23 <oklopol> the code forms a vector space over the field {0, 1}
02:21:39 <oerjan> and weight?
02:21:47 <oklopol> sum of 1-bits for binary codes
02:22:17 <oklopol> this is pretty much all i know about coding theory atm, first homework set... so, tell me if you have ideas.
02:22:57 <oerjan> i don't know about coding theory but i think i understand the question
02:23:48 <oklopol> yes, but i think it's the solution that's the hard part!
02:24:10 <oklopol> well actually that's not always true
02:24:22 <oerjan> so i don't know if there are relevant theorems in your course beyond the obvious xoring things together
02:24:49 <oklopol> nothing relevant yet.
02:25:07 <oklopol> well we've gone over what it means for it to be a vector space
02:25:30 <oklopol> that there's a base... but you probably understand vector spaces, so.
02:25:31 <oerjan> in this case (with {0,1}) it only means you are closed under xor'ing bitstrings
02:25:35 <oklopol> yes
02:25:44 <oerjan> + 0000000 is there
02:25:51 <oklopol> that's x xor x
02:26:06 <oerjan> i mean it's not an empty set
02:26:11 <oklopol> ah right
02:26:18 <oklopol> i keep thinking you can make errors
02:27:06 <oerjan> oh wait
02:27:06 <oklopol> anyway the fact we know there's a base isn't really that direct a consequence of that
02:27:14 <oerjan> hm no
02:27:47 <oklopol> of course if you put them on a matrix and do some elimination, it's trivial, and also if you know anything about vector spaces... but just knowing closed under xor doesn't obviously say "base exists" to me
02:28:15 <oklopol> the problem is
02:28:15 <oerjan> well clearly you can assume those words of weight 3 are a base
02:28:22 <ehird> "OpenSSL is written by monkeys"
02:28:23 <ehird> Indeed it is
02:28:27 <oklopol> wait you can? :D
02:28:36 <oklopol> don't tell me why
02:28:39 * oklopol ponders
02:28:48 <oerjan> although you may have to throw away some codes
02:29:18 <oklopol> you will have to.
02:29:24 <oklopol> if there were 7 vectors in the base
02:29:29 <oklopol> it would be the whole space
02:29:39 <oklopol> obviously
02:29:51 <oerjan> hm oh right wait
02:29:59 <oerjan> i was thinking wrong, maybe
02:30:23 <oklopol> about them being a base?
02:30:26 <oerjan> yeah
02:30:46 <oklopol> there can be ones with smaller weight
02:31:32 <oklopol> although for instance you can't have many ones, for instance five ones gives you 10 vectors of weight 3
02:31:58 <oerjan> mhm
02:32:05 <oerjan> oh wait
02:32:10 <oklopol> i tried to do this sorta elimination to figure out the dimension of the space, but that's pretty much as far as i got :P
02:32:34 <oerjan> what i should have said is you can assume your base is contained in those weight 3 codes
02:33:01 <oklopol> err
02:33:11 <oerjan> because throwing out anything not generated by them doesn't make the problem easier
02:33:56 <oklopol> contained how? you mean for each b in the base there's a codeword of weight 3 that contains all b's 1-bits
02:34:11 <oerjan> no, that each b in the base has weight 3
02:34:45 <oklopol> hmm, right
02:36:40 <oerjan> anyway. for a start, xoring two weight 3 codes gives something with weight 2, 4 or 6
02:37:08 <oklopol> hmm
02:37:57 <ehird> "The code is further proof that C is just a step above assembly. If you pretend it's assembly then the mess is justified ;)"
02:37:57 <ehird> i've become a c weenie because i felt a pang reading this :(
02:38:21 <oerjan> `define weenie
02:38:29 -!- Jaykul[AFK] has changed nick to Jaykul.
02:38:34 <ehird> whoa who is Jaykul
02:38:41 <oklopol> ehiird: less panging, more coding theory
02:38:48 <ehird> aaa someone in ##asp.net. run! run!
02:38:50 <oklopol> IMPORTANT ISSUES TO SOLVE
02:38:51 <HackEgo> * frank: a smooth-textured sausage of minced beef or pork usually smoked; often served on a bread roll \ [23]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * A sausage is a prepared food, usually made from ground meat, animal fat, salt, and spices (sometimes with other ingredients such as herbs), typically packed in a
02:38:52 <ehird> run from the devil!
02:39:03 <ehird> HackEgo: correct and useless!
02:39:09 <oerjan> sheesh
02:39:13 <oerjan> not to mention slow
02:40:32 <oerjan> lessee, i think there must be some weight 3 codes whose xor has weight 2
02:40:43 <oklopol> yes
02:41:04 <oerjan> otherwise there is not enough overlap
02:41:29 <oklopol> by renaming, we can essentially only get 1110000, 0011100, 0000111 otherwise
02:41:45 <oklopol> err
02:41:48 <oklopol> no that's not correct
02:42:35 <oklopol> brain is kinda shutting down, should probably consider sleeping
02:43:01 <oerjan> yeah, this looks like a kind of puzzle, really
02:43:57 <oklopol> god i hate the lecturer... well actually he's pretty awesome, tends to say stuff like "well, we have to check why X has property Y... but this is trivial, because obviously Z", and then laughs out loud at how simple it was
02:44:41 <ehird> so you don't hate him
02:44:50 <oklopol> no, not really
02:45:23 <oklopol> oerjan: it's possible, yes
02:45:51 <oklopol> the lecturer is known for his puzzles no one manages to solve
02:46:17 <oklopol> or no one but me, occasionally
02:46:58 <oklopol> just haven't really developed much of an intuition for coding theory, and i don't know shit about combinatorics, which is a prerequisite for the course
02:47:07 <ehird> OKLOPOL
02:47:13 <ehird> talk about something less interesting
02:47:13 <oklopol> (supposed to be a fifth year course)
02:47:22 <oklopol> but...
02:47:23 <ehird> ...really?
02:47:24 <ehird> xD
02:47:32 <oklopol> really what
02:47:36 <ehird> fifth year
02:47:51 <ehird> oklopol: you do realise that your life will feel worthless as soon as you get your phd (in a few months) and you can't do any university work any more :D
02:47:56 <oklopol> err yes, i take all courses i see, no matter what the prerequisites are
02:48:07 <ehird> "Noooo! I've wasted my life being productive!"
02:48:48 <oklopol> umm
02:48:54 <oklopol> then i'll start research.
02:48:59 <oklopol> that's university work
02:49:04 <ehird> and then you die, and then WHAT WILL YOU DO THEN
02:49:06 <ehird> huh?!
02:49:12 <ehird> can't do university work if you're DEAD
02:49:18 <oklopol> oh well that is a toughie
02:50:32 * oklopol considers reading the whole material of the combinatorics course in case that'd help solve the exercise
02:52:32 <oerjan> ehird: he'll go to a haitian zombie university, duh
02:52:58 <ehird>
02:53:01 <ehird> oops
02:53:05 <oerjan> lots of brainwork there
02:53:33 <ehird> oklopol: are you doing the maximum number of simultaneous courses?
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02:53:39 <oklopol> ehird: no.
02:53:49 <oklopol> not even in math dep
02:54:04 <oklopol> i'm doing every course i considered even remotely interesting though
02:54:06 <ehird> oklopol: do a topological sort on the courses so that the prerequisites come first, and sign up for as many courses as you can, then delete them from the list
02:54:13 <oklopol> and twice as many courses as most people do
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02:54:26 <ehird> you will complete every course in just a few years
02:54:31 <ehird> as long as you like hard work
02:54:35 <ehird> now go and get some fucking 5s
02:54:38 <ehird> GO →
02:55:05 <oklopol> ehiird: except no need to do a topological sort when i can just take courses without taking the prerequisites.
02:55:18 <ehird> BUT, oklopol
02:55:27 <ehird> if you know the prerequisites there's a good chance you'll finish a course faster
02:55:32 <ehird> thus allowing you to do, guess what
02:55:34 <ehird> another course
02:55:36 <ehird> faster
02:55:47 <ehird> so nearing the end you'll be going through courses insanely fast
02:56:02 <ehird> and then
02:56:07 <ehird> you know what you have to do?
02:56:11 <ehird> go to the nearest university
02:56:14 <ehird> and do it all over again
02:56:24 <ehird> once you've done all the universities in finland
02:56:29 <ehird> go to the nearest universe in another country
02:56:31 <ehird> etc etc etc
02:56:33 <ehird> and eventually, oklopol
02:56:36 <ehird> you will know EVERYTHING
02:56:46 <ehird> and will therefore
02:56:46 <ehird> be
02:56:49 <ehird> UNSTOPPABLE
02:56:57 <oklopol> oh well that's a fair point
02:57:01 <ehird> oklopol: then you can start research.
02:57:26 <ehird> since you know everything you'll have to rig the setups so that they actually create new truths
02:57:30 <ehird> which you will then discover
02:58:24 <oklopol> anyway i couldn't be *that* much faster, there are only a few courses i'm not taking, and those mostly are about stuff i already know, plus the master's degree related seminar
02:58:45 <ehird> the point is that you have to do that to optimise better for the later courses
02:58:46 <oklopol> (not doing my master's this year, unfortunately)
02:58:56 <ehird> so it's little benefit now, but it actually speeds up in the future!
03:01:01 <ehird> "The main question regarding the Das Keyboard Professional Model “S” should not be whether it’s a very nice keyboard: it is."
03:01:01 <ehird> oh shut up it fails at key rollover
03:01:02 <ehird> ahem
03:02:23 <ehird> "The Original Das Keyboard Professional lacks media function keys, has only a single USB connector, isn’t compatible with KVM switches, and doesn’t have “Full n-key rollover,” which means that if you mash, say, six keys at once, the keyboard might not register all of them."
03:02:24 <ehird> yeah and neither does the S
03:03:48 <ehird> anyway who wants to help me make this distro, you can do all the boring parts
03:03:50 <ehird> yeah didn't think so
03:03:59 <oklopol> i just want to sleep
03:04:06 <ehird> i will let you sleep IF
03:04:09 <ehird> you help me with this
03:04:12 <ehird> and only then.
03:04:37 <oklopol> anyone here an expert on beta distribution?
03:05:23 <oklopol> i wish my brain worked
03:08:55 * oerjan vaguely recalls the name from statistics. that means no, btw
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03:21:05 <ehird> AnMaster: There?
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03:50:07 <Warrigal> oklopol: I'm an expert on the beta distribution the same way that I'm an expert on the derivative of x^2.
03:50:54 <madbrain> yeah the original das keyboard has a too slow scan I think yeah
03:51:44 <Gregor> The Das Keyboard: TOO F***ING LOUD.
03:54:11 <Warrigal> oklopol: so, uh, I guess I would like it if you would ask a question.
03:54:46 <oerjan> das ist kein keyboard
03:55:00 <Warrigal> Wow, everyone but oklopol is speaking now.
03:55:16 <oerjan> he probably fell asleep
03:55:36 <oerjan> idle 50 mins
03:56:04 <oklopol> technically i'm still awake, and the beta one is probably not very interesting
03:56:12 <oklopol> *but
03:56:34 <oklopol> would probably suffice for read its characteristics from wp.
03:56:44 <oklopol> but i'm not going to do anything anymore
03:56:45 <Warrigal> oklopol: saying that you have a question automatically makes the question interesting.
03:57:16 <ehird> Gregor: Meh.
03:57:27 <ehird> Gregor: Model Ms are louder. And Model Fs are even moreso.
03:57:33 <oklopol> dunno, dunno, in any case i'm not going to get the paper, since i'm too tired
03:57:59 <Warrigal> Meep.
03:58:00 <ehird> Gregor: You can get clicky keyboards without the click, though; the Cherry Browns are slightly lighter and with less of a tactile push, but they don't click and are pretty similar to the Blues used in the Das.
03:58:16 <ehird> Gregor: Of course if you're paying hundreds for a keyboard anyway might as well get a ~$250 Topre >:D
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04:03:34 <ehird> I wish there was a way to detect vt100 apps so I could write a terminal that lets you do actually useful shit and changes mode for them.
04:03:35 <ehird> Sigh.
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04:04:10 <madbrain> vt100 apps?
04:05:04 <ehird> apps that reposition cursor, for instance every curses-using app
04:05:09 <ehird> and other vt100 stuff
04:05:11 <ehird> colour is okay though
04:05:17 <ehird> don't need to detect colour usage
04:05:29 <ehird> apps that make the input raw
04:05:32 <ehird> so that they get every character
04:05:33 <ehird> etc
04:06:13 <madbrain> why not just output straight VGA text mode
04:06:27 <ehird> madbrain: what?
04:06:31 <ehird> what has that got to do with anything
04:07:09 <madbrain> hmm, I'm thinking in terms of dos apps, sorry
04:07:18 <ehird> I don't write vt100 apps
04:07:27 <ehird> I just wish they identified themselves as "hello we are going to fuck with the terminal"
04:07:32 <ehird> because I want to have a terminal that can copy and paste across lines without copying an actual linebreaks, that can support keyboard shortcuts without mangling them horribly due to applications inside the terminal, that can delete selected text after highlighting it like everything else
04:07:34 <ehird> etc
04:07:56 <ehird> and stupid applications like vi and everything that want to shoehorn a complex UI onto a command-line system stop me doing this
04:08:07 <ehird> so if i could detect them, i could emulate a vt100 like every other terminal and let them take over
04:08:15 <ehird> and when we drop back to a shell, it could become rich again
04:08:27 <ehird> but they don't identify themselves, they just go ahead and control it
04:09:10 <madbrain> hmm
04:09:23 <madbrain> what about detecting vt100 escape sequences?
04:09:31 <ehird> that's one possibility, for sure
04:09:45 <ehird> but if a program doesn't use one at startup that'd be weird
04:09:50 <ehird> because it'd come into the normal text view then bam
04:09:55 <ehird> all the other stuff is gone as it takes over the terminal
04:10:12 <madbrain> make it user selectable then?
04:10:27 <oklopol> Warrigal: you could try to solve the problem i did tell about
04:10:38 <ehird> madbrain: vt100 apps are pretty common you know
04:10:44 <ehird> and it'd be a huge pain to have to do that
04:11:03 <ehird> + perhaps so annoying to outweigh the benefits of being able to assume text
04:11:15 <madbrain> ah, dunno, I'm comming from a world of DOS and windows so that stuff is different for me
04:11:20 <ehird> otoh, it would let me use the rc shell without bloating it with filename completion and the like nicely, like it is in plan9...
04:11:31 <ehird> madbrain: i'll try and explain
04:11:34 <ehird> madbrain: you know edit.com?
04:11:43 <madbrain> so my reference for that is the VGA text mode
04:11:56 <Warrigal> oklopol: what problem was that?
04:12:00 <madbrain> ehird: yeah?
04:12:12 <ehird> madbrain: and you know, e.g. deltree or whatever? a command that prints its status linearly and the like
04:12:17 <oklopol> Warrigal: read logs, wasn't that long ago
04:12:25 <madbrain> right
04:12:31 <ehird> madbrain: and command.com itself, which is like deltree or whatever but also has user input
04:12:33 <oklopol> the binary linear code thing
04:12:59 <ehird> madbrain: well, edit.com is like a curses app on linux (which use the vt100 codes to do colours, reposition the caret to output in predefined places instead of linearly, get direct access to the keypresses, yada yada yada)
04:13:00 <Warrigal> oklopol: prove that if you have a binary linear code of word length 7 and there are exactly 7 words of weight 3, then 1111111 belongs to the code?
04:13:08 <ehird> madbrain: and deltree and command.com are like "regular" terminal apps
04:13:10 <oklopol> yes
04:13:15 <ehird> e.g. vim and emacs without the GUI are ncurses apps
04:13:18 <ehird> so is irssi
04:13:26 <madbrain> hmm
04:13:52 <madbrain> but then wouldn't most "rich" apps start filling the screen with colors and stuff like that right off the bat?
04:14:04 <ehird> well, I can handle colours in plain text
04:14:09 <ehird> but yes, most would indeed
04:14:13 <Warrigal> A binary linear code is a code that forms a vector space over {0, 1} where addition is elementwise XOR?
04:14:19 <ehird> I'm definitely considering it nnow
04:14:21 <ehird> *now
04:14:30 <ehird> perhaps I should make a new window for vt100 stuff, too
04:14:34 <oklopol> yes
04:14:35 <ehird> since it'll act differently
04:14:43 <ehird> and to let you terminate it etc. via the normal terminal
04:15:03 <madbrain> vt100 is, what, similar to VGA text mode, right?
04:15:33 <ehird> I'm not sure what you mean
04:15:38 <Warrigal> And the "weight" of a code is the number of 1s in it?
04:15:41 <ehird> vt100 was just an ancient CRT terminal you plugged into a mainframe
04:15:45 <ehird> you could output text to it like normal
04:15:52 <ehird> but it also has special things to output that do things like:
04:15:55 <ehird> set background/foreground colour
04:15:56 <madbrain> (in terms of functionality, not interface)
04:16:01 <ehird> move cursor (where text is output) up one line
04:16:04 <ehird> left one character
04:16:07 <ehird> and
04:16:16 <ehird> stop buffering text at lines before you send it to me, give me every keypress raw
04:16:18 <ehird> so i can handle it how i want
04:16:20 <ehird> that sort of stuff
04:16:32 <oklopol> Warrigal: yes
04:16:56 <madbrain> ehird: right
04:17:06 <ehird> madbrain: thanks for making me rethink that detecting wouldn't work, btw; I'm seriously considering it now
04:17:22 <ehird> madbrain: one issue, though, is: how do I know when it's stopped vt100ing? I guess I'll look at the process tree and mark them as vt100ing
04:17:33 <ehird> so i need to look at processes the shell creates
04:17:36 <Warrigal> Well, if the code contains everything it possibly can, it has 21 words of weight 3. I would bet that if you XOR all 7 words of weight 3, you'll always get 1111111.
04:17:40 <ehird> so this will actually be more involved than your typical terminal
04:18:04 <Warrigal> So then it's a matter of proving that for any possible set of 7, for each position, an odd number of the 7 have a 1 in that position.
04:18:22 <madbrain> you could probably maintain a non vt100 and a vt100 state
04:18:57 <ehird> madbrain: yah, but for most terminals, once the vt100ing program is through, they don't know
04:19:03 <ehird> they don't handle processes, the shell does
04:19:07 <ehird> and the terminal just blithely follows the ouutput
04:19:28 <oklopol> Warrigal: what do you mean by 21?
04:19:41 <ehird> `addquote <oklopol> Warrigal: what do you mean by 21?
04:19:46 <oklopol> :P
04:19:48 <Warrigal> Oops.
04:19:55 <madbrain> well, once it goes out of vt100, the special characters would eventually get flushed out of the screen no?
04:19:56 <HackEgo> 100|<oklopol> Warrigal: what do you mean by 21?
04:19:59 <oklopol> C(7, 3)?
04:20:09 <oklopol> that's 35
04:20:15 <ehird> hey quote 100
04:20:18 <ehird> what do you mean by 100
04:20:21 <Warrigal> 35, yeah.
04:20:22 <ehird> madbrain: that's true
04:20:39 <ehird> madbrain: but that'd be even weirder to have it go back; I'm thinking of spawning a separate window for vt100 stuff, since it behaves differently
04:20:55 <ehird> madbrain: vt100 apps mess up the scrollback (things scrolled off-screen) anyway
04:21:05 <ehird> since they take over the entire screen, they usually overwrite stuff before themselves
04:21:08 <ehird> not all of it, just some
04:21:14 <ehird> so putting it in another window helps that
04:21:36 <Warrigal> I wish 35/7 were a power of two.
04:22:25 <madbrain> ehird: well, basically they stop doing vertical scrolling and make the screen into a 2 array, no?
04:22:27 <oklopol> well, tell me if you come up with anything interesting, time to sleep
04:22:29 <oklopol> ->
04:22:33 * Warrigal nods.
04:22:55 <ehird> madbrain: basically. the problem is that, e.g. if you scroll down in a vt100 app, then scroll up in your terminal, you see the top line of the current scrolling, and then the line before you started it
04:23:10 <ehird> after quitting, they disappear as if they never happened
04:23:17 <ehird> it's all very weird
04:24:40 <madbrain> hm
04:27:04 <madbrain> ehird: so it's basically text prompt up to the vt100 app, then vt100 sorta as if it was a virtual screen, except that screen disappears on quitting?
04:27:14 <ehird> yep...
04:27:20 <ehird> here, let me tell you what i mean by losing backlog
04:27:39 <ehird> first I resize my terminal to 6 lines high to demonstrate
04:27:47 <ehird> [~]$
04:27:47 <ehird> [~]$
04:27:47 <ehird> [~]$
04:27:47 <ehird> [~]$
04:27:48 <ehird> [~]$
04:27:48 <ehird> [~]$
04:27:49 <ehird> [~]$
04:27:51 <ehird> i just hit enter until i got a tiny scrollbar
04:27:59 <ehird> I type in "man rc", hit enter
04:28:02 <ehird> and it all turns into
04:28:07 <ehird> [~]$
04:28:07 <ehird> [~]$
04:28:07 <ehird> RC(1) RC(1)
04:28:08 <ehird> NAME
04:28:08 <ehird> rc - shell
04:28:08 <ehird> :
04:28:12 <ehird> although there's a blank line after RC(1)
04:28:14 <ehird> and before the :
04:28:15 <ehird> stupid irc
04:28:29 <ehird> anyway, you can see that it's cut off some backlog; it could have cut off a command's outputt in the middle were it there
04:28:31 <ehird> *output
04:28:34 <ehird> so I press q to quit, and
04:28:38 <ehird> [~]$
04:28:38 <ehird> [~]$
04:28:38 <ehird> [~]$
04:28:39 <ehird> [~]$
04:28:39 <ehird> [~]$
04:28:39 <ehird> [~]$
04:28:41 <ehird> [~]$ man rc
04:28:43 <ehird> [~]$
04:28:45 <ehird> it comes back
04:28:48 <ehird> this is all very weird and awkward
04:28:55 <madbrain> hmm
04:28:56 <ehird> curses apps just aren't like the command-line
04:29:01 <ehird> so I want to segregate them to a window
04:29:03 <madbrain> right
04:29:24 <ehird> and that way i can interpret the rest as regular text
04:29:30 <ehird> thus making using the terminal with other apps not hellish
04:30:11 <madbrain> well, you could detect ncurses apps and give them a virtual 24 line window inside your scrolling window
04:30:28 <ehird> yes
04:30:40 <ehird> but the thing is, that still leads to an inconsistent experience, because now they are trapping your keystrokes
04:30:44 <ehird> so you lose the keyboard shortcuts
04:30:47 <ehird> of the terminal
04:30:52 <ehird> and copying and pasting doesn't work the same, etc
04:31:00 <ehird> and you can't highlight some text and delete it, say in vim or emacs
04:31:04 <ehird> because it doesn't work that way
04:31:31 <madbrain> right
04:31:56 <ehird> plan 9 does this awesomely
04:32:10 <ehird> if you start a "rich" app (there is no gui/cli distinction),
04:32:14 <ehird> it takes over the terminal until you exit
04:32:16 <ehird> then it goes back
04:32:18 <ehird> the clever thing is
04:32:22 <ehird> every window in plan 9 is the same as a terminal window
04:32:27 <ehird> the same text interface, totally malleable
04:32:39 <ehird> so basically, the text window, you can just print to it
04:32:46 <ehird> or you can replace it with two text windows
04:32:54 <ehird> it's made so that a terminal isn't an oddity
04:33:13 <ehird> unfortunately there's still existing apps in the way in linux. :(
04:34:31 <madbrain> hm
04:35:03 <madbrain> yeah it would take something akin to "video modes"
04:35:43 <ehird> yeah
04:37:33 <madbrain> well, outputting any vt100 character is implicitly "switch to vt100 mode"
04:37:38 <ehird> #plan9's hostility is unparalleled:
04:37:38 <ehird> [03:35] ehird: hmm
04:37:38 <ehird> [03:35] ehird: does $"`{...} work?
04:37:39 <ehird> [03:35] soul9: NP
04:37:39 <ehird> [03:35] soul9: NO
04:37:42 <ehird> madbrain: yep
04:37:44 <ehird> but just for that process
04:38:00 <ehird> so I have to scoop up the previous output, put it in a new window, and redirect the process's output there in vt100 mode
04:38:27 <madbrain> hmm
04:38:45 <madbrain> it would be good if you had a "return from vt100" procedure too
04:39:30 <madbrain> supposing the guy calls a series of apps that switch between the two kinds of apps or something
04:39:49 <madbrain> normally a vt100 would do some cleaning up when quitting no?
04:39:54 <ehird> nope
04:39:59 <ehird> in most terminals, it's very simple
04:40:03 <ehird> the program simply stops executing
04:40:05 <ehird> and the shell prints its prompt
04:40:07 <ehird> and you keep going
04:40:09 <ehird> it's all one stream
04:40:32 <madbrain> hmm
04:40:47 <oerjan> ehird: man termcap, man terminfo. i'm pretty sure there _was_ some "start using escape sequences" sequence in at least one of them...
04:40:50 <madbrain> then obviously you should put your hook into the shell
04:41:20 <ehird> oerjan: ah, you mean construct my own?
04:41:26 <madbrain> and make the shell activate your "exit from vt100 mode" procedure when starting up
04:41:35 <oerjan> that's how curses applications determine how a terminal works...
04:41:57 <ehird> sweet
04:42:02 <oerjan> ehird: i was wondering since you kept saying vt100 if you didn't know about it...
04:42:03 <ehird> (are you sure?)
04:42:08 <ehird> oerjan: i know about i t
04:42:20 <ehird> I just didn't realise it let you tell the app to output something when it starts doing funny business
04:42:23 <ehird> *it
04:42:35 <oerjan> i am pretty sure i vaguely recall it ;D
04:45:28 <madbrain> are there any 132 column apps?
04:45:42 <ehird> most progs can handle any terminal size.
04:45:53 <ehird> #!/bin/rc
04:45:53 <ehird>
04:45:54 <ehird> fn update {
04:45:54 <ehird> clock=`{date +'%b %-d, %H:%M'}
04:45:54 <ehird> xsetroot -name $"clock
04:45:54 <ehird> }
04:45:56 <ehird>
04:45:58 <ehird> update
04:46:00 <ehird> while (sleep `{echo 60-`{date +%S} | bc}) update
04:46:02 <ehird> Clocks are awesome!
04:47:00 <oerjan> hm maybe i was thinking of ti/te in termcap
04:47:10 <madbrain> yeah one of the escape sequences is "reset terminal to initial state"
04:47:53 <ehird> come to think of it, I should probably make it say -11-01 instead of Nov 1
04:47:59 <ehird> since I use the number more than the name
04:48:04 <ehird> and it doesn't tell me the full name anyway
04:48:09 <ehird> -11-01 is pretty ugly though
04:48:40 <ehird> heh, that thing's running sleep 59 right now
04:48:45 <madbrain> one thing that's funny is that they hacked a 132 column text mode into the PC, obviously for vt100 compatibility, but they did it really late (like, in SVGA cards)
04:48:50 <ehird> could have been a perfect 60 if i wasn't a second too late!
04:49:10 <ehird> hmm, maybe I should add a funge factor of sleeping one extra second, just in case I get it just before the next minute starts
04:49:13 <ehird> not a big deal though
04:49:20 <madbrain> it's like the weirdest video mode ever
04:49:27 <ehird> vt100 is 80x24
04:50:25 <madbrain> these docs say that it had a 132x mode, but probably that people didn't use it
04:50:44 <ehird> yeah
04:51:12 <ehird> annoying that it's very hard to say "start of next minute" with things like sleep
04:51:17 <ehird> sleep `{echo 60-`{date +%S} | bc} is ugly
04:51:28 <ehird> (translation: "Sleep for 60 seconds minus the seconds elapsed in the current minute".)
04:52:50 <madbrain> that's an... interesting way of coding
04:53:02 <ehird> madbrain: what, the composition of simple commands?
04:53:08 <ehird> yeah, it's called unix. well, it was called unix in the 70s.
04:53:45 <ehird> bc is the calculator, echo just prints something out, a | b runs a sending the output to b as it goes, `{...} runs ... and expands its output into the command it's in
04:53:46 <ehird> rc shell
04:53:52 <ehird> it'd look like this in the more common bash:
04:53:59 <ehird> sleep $(echo 60-$(date +%S) | bc)
04:54:03 <ehird> or, more probable,
04:54:15 <ehird> sleep $(( 60-$(date +%S) ))
04:54:41 <madbrain> yeah, window's shell isn't good enough for that!
04:55:08 <ehird> yeah what do you guys do, keep a (non-digital) clock on your desk?
04:55:13 <ehird> weirdos
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04:56:09 <madbrain> dunno, but a .bat file clock sounds like it would be hard to code
04:56:20 <madbrain> dunno if .bat is even turing complete
04:56:30 <ehird> it has goto, I'm pretty sure it is
04:56:35 <ehird> and conditionals
04:56:43 <ehird> plus potentially infinite storage (filesystem)
04:56:48 <madbrain> hmm
04:57:08 <ehird> madbrain: write a brainfuck interp and see
04:57:11 <ehird> shouldn't be too hard
04:57:14 <madbrain> yeah ok it might be using some ugly tricks
04:57:39 <madbrain> such as creating new .bat files and running them
04:57:44 <ehird> :-D
04:57:48 <ehird> awesome; do it
04:59:43 <MizardX> ( echo import brainfuck, sys & echo brainfuck.run(' '.join(sys.argv[1:])) ) | python
04:59:50 <ehird> hur hur hur
04:59:55 <ehird> s/hur $/hur/
05:02:57 <oerjan> you and your invisible end-of-line spaces
05:03:18 <ehird> yes.
05:05:08 <oerjan> neither irssi nor the logs contain it, maybe it is stripped by the irc server
05:05:22 <madbrain> hmm, what's the typical length of a dram refresh cycle%?
05:05:33 <ehird> meaning?
05:06:09 <madbrain> ie how much time maximum between refreshes?
05:06:15 <oerjan> a dram is always refreshing
05:06:19 <ehird> what is refresh
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05:06:40 <madbrain> oerjan: well, if by always you mean every 10ms or some similar value
05:07:09 <madbrain> ehird: dram loses data if you don't regularly read and rewrite it!
05:07:21 <oerjan> *whoosh*. admittedly that word's probably obscure in english, but it exists.
05:07:43 <ehird> 1 a small drink of whiskey or other spirits (often used in humorous imitation of Scottish speech)
05:08:12 <ehird> madbrain: anyway, something like 10 minutes
05:08:18 <ehird> is the record for post-shutdown recovery
05:08:21 <madbrain> dunno how modern PCs refresh DRAM... afaik some older ones had an interrupt
05:08:21 <ehird> more if you cool it
05:10:51 <madbrain> like, afaik, one reason the z80 was popular was that it handled ram refresh for you
05:28:53 <madbrain> aha, 16m
05:28:56 <madbrain> 16ms
05:29:14 <madbrain> (from a datasheet)
05:29:24 <madbrain> that is a totally strategic time!
05:30:03 * coppro is a connoisseur of esoteric words
05:32:16 <madbrain> lol conoisseur
05:33:17 <coppro> :D
05:33:50 <fax> I'm a lol conoisseur
05:34:42 <ehird> madbrain: 16 meters? that's an awfully long time!
05:35:33 <oerjan> not at all, that's very short, ask any relativist
05:35:42 <ehird> :D
05:36:56 <Sgeo> ....Someone forgot where his OWN building was
05:37:32 <Sgeo> Days after he showed it to me
05:38:55 <ehird> that'd be more amusing if it wasn't almost certainly in BobsVeryOwnVirtualRealityCirca1999.
05:40:15 <Sgeo> lol
05:40:27 <Sgeo> It was in AWTeen 3205.00N 1235.00E -0.01a 0 (Active Worlds)
05:40:49 <Sgeo> AW lets you save locations (I'd hate to imagine a place that didn't)
05:41:13 <Sgeo> Anyways, I need to go to sleep. Bye all
05:43:22 <ehird> EVERYONE: Stop fucking using sourceforge!
05:44:56 <oerjan> i find it somewhat difficult to understand how someone could use sourceforge for fucking in the first place
05:45:06 <oerjan> but, rule 34 and all
05:45:21 <ehird> it doesn't even parse that way, so you fail :p
05:45:26 <ehird> also, rule 34 is about porn.
05:46:02 <oerjan> i claim it can parse that way
05:47:22 <ehird> chomsky hates you.
05:47:45 <oerjan> chomsky hates nearly everyone, doesn't he.
05:47:54 <ehird> who knows
05:49:27 <madbrain> rule 34 is about cartoon porn yeah
05:49:51 <ehird> no, it's about porn in general.
05:50:29 <Gregor> What's this about porn?
05:50:38 <Gregor> Oh, the rule is just "There is porn of it. Period."
05:51:41 <pikhq> And it's very very true.
05:52:28 <bsmntbombdood> very true
05:52:30 <madbrain> well, technically it's about porn in general, but what it mostly means is that it's hard not to find porn of whatever cartoon and that there are many crazy fetishes
05:52:57 <ehird> madbrain — premier mind-reader since 2009
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06:00:48 <madbrain> rule 1: most artists have drawn some porn
06:01:23 * coppro just had a terrible thought
06:01:23 <ehird> I'm fairly sure that's not a rule of /b/ no matter what set you use.
06:01:25 <madbrain> corollary: this includes artists that do kids games and cartoons
06:01:28 <ehird> coppro: unthink it
06:01:43 <coppro> SF.net porn :/
06:02:02 <ehird> Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page?
06:05:08 <Gregor> `addquote <coppro> SF.net porn :/ <ehird> Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page?
06:05:25 <HackEgo> 101|<coppro> SF.net porn :/ <ehird> Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page?
06:06:13 <ehird> I'll badly integrate all your web apps into a slow-loading monstrosity, if you know what I mean ;-)
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06:13:13 <madbrain> hmm
06:13:41 * ehird spontaneously combusts
06:15:56 <madbrain> I'm looking at DRAM datasheets to figure out how to design a system
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06:16:33 <ehird> madbrain: what are you doing?
06:16:35 <ehird> it sounds fun
06:18:36 <madbrain> trying to design a system with a cpu, graphics and sound hardware
06:18:45 <ehird> madbrain: like, custom cpu? fpga?
06:18:53 <ehird> design your own computer? fucking awesome
06:19:07 <madbrain> possibly all that stuff running from inside a fpga yeah
06:19:20 <ehird> i absolutely want to do that some day
06:19:35 <ehird> madbrain: the good fpgas are so expensive though :(
06:19:41 <madbrain> hmm
06:19:46 <madbrain> "good"?
06:19:49 <ehird> like $500 up; the $200 "evaluation boards" are limited as far as complexity, iirc
06:19:49 <ehird> as in
06:19:57 <ehird> each board can only handle so much logic
06:20:02 <ehird> and the $200 ones don't handle much at all
06:20:07 <madbrain> hmm
06:20:14 <ehird> you'd have to ask ais523
06:20:17 <ehird> he's studied this stuff
06:20:34 <madbrain> there's not too much point to a 500$ fpga, I could get a beagle board for that price :/
06:20:39 <ais523> yes, actually doing it in hardware costs far too much
06:20:46 <bsmntbombdood> how do they know
06:20:54 <ehird> madbrain: also, the tools to put VHDL or whatever onto the chip are expensive
06:20:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how do they know what
06:21:02 <bsmntbombdood> the apples
06:21:04 <ehird> madbrain: like "contact us"
06:21:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what apples
06:21:21 <madbrain> ehird: then I'll probably go for one of those spartan3 evaluation boards or something
06:21:23 <ehird> madbrain: (for price)
06:21:26 <madbrain> ie the small/limited stuff
06:21:39 <ehird> madbrain: well, they might come with tools of some sort
06:22:22 <madbrain> well, a design with cache is rather complicated, so without cache there should be some sort of upper complexity limit
06:22:39 <bsmntbombdood> the cache of gonads
06:22:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how do what apples know what
06:23:03 <ehird> madbrain: make it a microcode interpreter and swap the cpu microcode from registers to RAM :-D
06:23:05 <madbrain> ie probably go for some kind of RISC for the cpu since with only raw DRAM access there's a limit to data access rates
06:23:15 <bsmntbombdood> it's pertussis, not infection pneumonitis
06:23:34 <madbrain> ehird: ?
06:23:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how drunk are you exactly
06:23:51 <ehird> madbrain: you know what microcode is right?
06:24:00 <madbrain> I'm not familiar with that
06:24:03 <bsmntbombdood> my father is swimming
06:24:26 <ehird> madbrain: basically, modern CPUs don't implement the CPU in the actual electric pathways
06:24:35 <ehird> madbrain: they have an interpreter for a proprietary microcode, like a RISC architecture
06:24:46 <ehird> madbrain: and each instruction is coded in it, in super-fast, on-chip ROM
06:24:47 <madbrain> I think it's basically CPU opcodes get expanded to larger processor instruction data inside
06:24:53 <madbrain> yeah
06:24:57 <ehird> and the processor executes the microcode instead of the instructions directly
06:25:10 <ehird> so current CISC chips are actually RISC internally
06:25:16 <ehird> although you can't change it and it's undocumented, so uh
06:25:18 <madbrain> right
06:25:19 <ehird> good luck doing anything with it
06:25:45 <ehird> madbrain: ofc, storing the microcode in RAM would be so slow and swapping it to registers is useless since there's so few of them :-)
06:25:46 <ehird> it was a joke.
06:25:59 <madbrain> I'd like to do a super out-of-order stack reduction based chip but that would be way too large for a fpga :D
06:26:15 <ehird> madbrain: fpgas can cost up to like $5,000
06:26:19 <ehird> not many limits with them really
06:26:27 <bsmntbombdood> low clock speed
06:26:28 <madbrain> that is way too much money
06:26:33 <ehird> just saying
06:26:34 <ehird> :P
06:26:48 <madbrain> also it would require cache
06:26:59 <ehird> i'm joking man
06:27:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so uh what was that about apples
06:27:38 <madbrain> but yeah, right now I'm debating on whether to try to take advantage of fast-page/edo DRAM or go for static access cycles
06:28:08 <ehird> madbrain: please make it something not like the standard risc architectures
06:28:08 <ehird> thx
06:28:57 <madbrain> why
06:29:03 <madbrain> because they're boring? :D
06:29:05 <ehird> madbrain: because they're boring.
06:29:07 <ehird> also crap
06:29:33 <madbrain> crap?
06:29:38 <ehird> crap.
06:29:51 <bsmntbombdood> oh my
06:31:12 <bsmntbombdood> i have a glorious beard
06:31:36 <madbrain> like, I'm going through this sdram specification.... this is complicated
06:31:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: eat it
06:31:47 <ehird> it is food
06:31:55 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think so mister
06:31:56 <ehird> madbrain: i think the fpgas abstract the ram away for you
06:32:01 <ehird> ais523?
06:32:23 <ais523> sort-of
06:32:29 <ais523> variables in the HDL become RAM in the fpga
06:32:46 <ais523> although sometimes the compiler is stupid and you have to specifically tell it to use dedicated RAM rather than LUT-based RAM
06:33:02 <ehird> LUT is the complexity unit, right?
06:33:34 <ais523> yes
06:33:43 <ais523> you can make one LUT into one bit of RAM
06:33:47 <ais523> but that's normally really wasteful
06:33:56 <ais523> so FPGAs tend to come with some pre-built RAM too
06:34:02 <madbrain> ah, but you're talking about in fpga ram
06:34:05 <madbrain> which is SRAM
06:34:28 <madbrain> and typically comes in, what, 16k? probably more or less depending of the chip but still
06:34:36 <ehird> no more
06:34:45 <ehird> the $200 boards have like 256 MiB of RAM
06:34:49 <ehird> or was it like 23 MiB
06:34:55 <ehird> whatever it was, it was very sufficient
06:34:56 <madbrain> ah but that's SDRAM no?
06:35:01 <ehird> prolly
06:35:09 <madbrain> that's different!
06:35:15 <ehird> s/23 MiB/32 MiB/
06:35:17 <ehird> madbrain: so :P
06:35:58 <madbrain> on chip ram is static ram and can be addressed pretty fast... cpu caches are SRAM for instance
06:36:26 <madbrain> but SDRAM is DRAM and you have to sorta planify who gets a turn to read from it, etc...
06:36:47 <madbrain> not to mention variable access times depending on type of accesses
06:47:06 <madbrain> like, one possible manner is to make a chip that outputs 320x240 and where everything is based on 400 memory cycles per scanline
06:49:25 <madbrain> from there, if you keep a lid on register space, ROM space, and excessive multipliers, it should be synthesizable
06:49:54 <madbrain> obviously that would give a rather classic, probably amiga-like design
07:00:12 <madbrain> then a fast-page or edo-based design, which would be more 486-y
07:06:06 <ehird> amiga-like is good! do that.
07:06:20 <ehird> i'm always a fan of the tied-to-the-CRT-rate stuff
07:16:48 <ehird> omg guys
07:16:49 <ehird> in two months
07:16:51 <ehird> it will be MMX
07:27:53 <madbrain> ?
07:30:25 * oerjan swattit madbrainum -----###
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07:30:55 <ehird> MMX!
07:31:21 <oerjan> MMPH!
07:31:48 <madbrain> ok, sdram isn't bad :D
07:32:13 <madbrain> except it has way too many pins :(
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08:15:27 <ehird> "Just one incident: when my Symbolics came, the seller mixed up billing and shipping address and sent it to my home. Had to pick it up at the post office but they sent a customs postcard with the price on it. Well, I had to explain why I would spend "that much" on an old keyboard. After everything was settled I looked at the postcard once more and realized it only showed the shipping costs."
08:18:07 <pikhq> ehird: :)
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08:21:28 <ehird> Things to do to make the distro: * Get hardware. * Set up Arch development environment. * Go through the gigantic kernel configuration process. * Write the init. * Figure out what login to use and all that crap. * Figure out what libc to use. * See if LLVM can do a.out, if not, switch from it (unlikely) or get it to work or whatever...
08:21:29 <ehird> * Figure out what coreutils to use, or write one I guess; port it if it's a BSD one, etc. * Compile some stuff. * Write a package manager. * Compile a toolchain for the toolchain. * Bootstrap shortly after. * Write the rest of this list
08:21:56 <madbrain> man, sdram modules have 168 pins o_@
08:21:58 <ehird> At some point some testing would be good, and getting other people to test too...
08:22:08 <ehird> You guys like testing, right?! Thought so.
08:24:51 <ehird> (Maybe I can get pikhq to test it by replacing all references to Linux with As-Of-Yet Unnamed Suckless.org Kernel.)
08:25:40 <pikhq> ehird: Eh, I have free time, and am at least curious to see what you come up with.
08:25:55 <ehird> Wow, it worked before I even did it.
08:25:59 <ehird> That's some mighty good plan.
08:26:53 <ehird> I should probably build a box with some medium-common-denominator hardware to get it all working...
08:27:19 <ehird> Using something high-end is probably a bad idea considering the state of drivers.
08:28:04 <ehird> I'll have to restrain myself from omitting everything from the kernel that I don't use...
08:28:35 <pikhq> "Eh, who needs disks, anyways? That's what a ramdisk is for, right?"
08:29:35 <ehird> RAM?! Recent Core 2 processors have 12 MiB of L2 cache, you know.
08:29:43 <ehird> As for the cache... we did fine with L1 back in the day!
08:30:18 <bsmntbombdood> this i7 has what, 8mb of l3
08:30:19 <ehird> Think about it. The Core 2's L2 cache? It can hold 8.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333... fully formatted floppy disks.
08:30:21 <ehird> WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
08:30:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah and 4x256 KiB of L2 I believe
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08:33:37 <ehird> hmm
08:33:48 <ehird> android's libc (bionic) has no termios
08:34:03 <ehird> i guess that doesn't really matter
08:37:04 <ehird> Android implements its own account management, and does not use /etc/passwd. There is no getpwent(), and getpwnam()/getpwuid() are implemented as wrappers around an Android ID service. At present, the Android ID service consists of 25 hard-coded accounts in <android_filesystem_config.h>
08:37:04 <ehird> ugh, so bionic is quite tied to android
08:37:14 <ehird> i really wish dietlibc wasn't fucking retardedly gpl
08:37:22 <ehird> it's clearly the right thing
08:42:47 <ehird> ah, now i remember why I dumped dietlibc
08:42:48 <ehird> • The BSD people would not accept it without $LICENSE==BSD (currently:
08:42:49 <ehird> GPL)
08:42:49 <ehird> • Then, Microsof t could steal my code to make Windoze less obviously broken
08:42:49 <ehird> (can’t let that happen).
08:42:59 <ehird> the author is a fucking loon.
08:43:20 <ehird> Why is it GPL and not LGPL or BSD?
08:43:20 <ehird> Because I don’t want to be r ipped of f.
08:43:21 <ehird> Implicit: "or anyone to use it"
08:44:14 <pikhq> Implicit: "I have less regard for common practical scenarios than RMS."
08:45:03 <ehird> :D
08:45:17 <ehird> pikhq: should I go off the deep end and write my own libc, or just use newlib!
08:45:27 <ehird> the fact that i can ask that question probably signifies I've already gone off the deep end
08:46:11 <ehird> Oh... um...
08:46:14 <ehird> pikhq: not newlib
08:46:18 <ehird> newlib doesn't support linux
08:46:22 <ehird> Red Hat's newlib
08:46:26 <ehird> doesn't support linux.
08:46:41 <ehird> That's, um, what's the word, uhh, stupid
08:46:51 <ehird> Or, waitt.
08:46:54 <ehird> Seems they added it.
08:46:55 <ehird> *wait
08:55:29 <ehird> pikhq: I can't use uclibc
08:55:40 <ehird> It's LGPL, so if I link with it I have to offer an unlinked object file
08:55:53 <ehird> *sigh*
08:56:17 <ehird> newlib too.
08:56:19 <ehird> So my choice is either:
08:56:27 <ehird> Hack up Bionic to work on non-Android and stuff...
08:56:29 <ehird> or
08:56:30 <ehird> Write my own
08:58:15 <ehird> ...
08:58:20 <ehird> What a crock of shit this is!
08:59:12 <ehird> Oh, hmm
08:59:18 <ehird> Apparently most of newlib is BSD-style
09:01:52 <pikhq> ehird: Red Hat bought Cygnus.
09:01:57 <pikhq> Cygnus developed newlib.
09:02:01 <ehird> Yeah.
09:02:08 <pikhq> Still...
09:02:12 <ehird> Hopefully newlib should work, though it seems rather stale.
09:02:29 <pikhq> Hmm. Maybe you could port BSD libc?
09:02:30 <ehird> But it beats hacking up Bionic, which is rather Android-tied (e.g. no /etc/passwd or fstab support)
09:02:38 <ehird> pikhq: I was thinking about that, and looked it up
09:02:51 <ehird> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/lib/libc/i386/
09:02:56 <ehird> BEHOLD THE EPIC MORASS OF ASSEMBLY CODE!!!
09:03:08 <ehird> Admittedly that's just some of it.
09:03:17 <pikhq> Clearly I should have said "Minix".
09:03:50 <ehird> I thought Tanenbaum was criminally insane... http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/andy_tanenbaum
09:04:35 <ehird> Anyway, BSD libcs are quite good, but still pretty bad: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/lib/libc/stdlib/atexit.c?rev=1.8.10.1.2.1;content-type=text%2Fplain
09:05:33 <ehird> Let's see how to compile newlib.
09:06:11 <pikhq> On a brighter note, porting BSD libc to Linux would make porting BSD utils... Trivial.
09:06:46 <ehird> That's true. What I'd have would look suspiciously like a BSD at the end, though, and they're not without their flaws.
09:06:56 <ehird> At that point I'd do well to save myself the effort and use their kernel too.
09:11:31 <ehird> Oh, hey, I forgot about that one.
09:11:48 <ehird> PDCLib!
09:12:05 <ehird> pikhq: I could port PDCLib to Linux/a.out if it hasn't been already, very easily.
09:12:20 <ehird> PDCLib is very minimalist and it's very easy to port it (it was designed for hobbyist OSs).
09:12:41 <ehird> Unfortunately it's inccomplete...
09:12:42 <ehird> And C99
09:12:44 <ehird> *incomplete
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09:25:36 * ehird_ compiles an i686 ELF newlib because he's too lazy to set up a crosscompiler
09:27:46 <ehird_> Pretty sure newlib is gcc only, I might try it with clang though
09:29:55 <ehird_> http://www.pfu.co.jp/hhkeyboard/
09:29:56 <ehird_> Happy Hacking Keyboard Red Control Key!
09:29:59 <ehird_> GIVE US MONEY NOW
09:30:09 <ehird_> Next up: Red "F" key
09:30:14 <ehird_> Red "X" key
09:30:20 <ehird_> Red " key
09:30:27 <ehird_> and
09:30:31 <ehird_> Red power switch
09:30:36 <ehird_> Red USB cable!
09:32:23 <oerjan> Red Alert key
09:32:54 <ehird_> (KEY)RED
09:33:09 <ehird_> </vaguelyobscure>
09:33:36 <oerjan> grmbl
09:33:49 <ehird_> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmbklfgjksfdg
09:33:51 <ehird_> gumball
09:39:32 <ehird_> pikhq: any opinion on how I should handle progs like dwm that have to be recompiled to config? same with the kernel too. i don't want to become source-based
09:39:43 <ehird_> maybe just make it simple to download my build environment for a package
09:39:48 <ehird_> still seems like a pain
09:39:51 <ehird_> since you can't autoupdate etc
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09:49:12 <ehird> GCC,
09:49:15 <ehird> No standard library,
09:49:19 <ehird> Static binary, if you please
09:49:24 <ehird> Yes, include newlib's includes
09:49:27 <ehird> And my source
09:49:30 <ehird> Dash of newlibc
09:49:36 <ehird> And -lgcc because you demand it, dammit
09:49:39 <ehird> Also name it test
09:49:50 <ehird> Cannot find entry simple _start, but it's just a warning
09:49:54 <ehird> To the tune of ./test, 1, 2, 3:
09:49:56 <ehird> Hello, world!
09:49:59 <ehird> Segmentation fault
09:50:10 <ehird> And ls tells me: 163 KiB.
09:50:12 <ehird> ↑↑↑↑ BEST POEM EVER
09:50:26 <ehird> *symbol not simple
09:57:26 <ehird> does anyone know if it's possible to take a linux installation and boot it but tell it to use another binary somewhere else as init?
09:06:06 <ehird> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/face_the_nation/
09:06:08 <ehird> 1974
09:06:12 <ehird> Each image was then reduced interactively to a 48«48 bit (1 bit per pixel) black– and– white 'ikon. '
09:06:28 <ehird> Am I reading the paper that pioneered the terminology icon?
09:14:50 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: There? <-- now I am
09:14:53 <AnMaster> what did you want ehird?
09:15:09 <ehird> paste the context?
09:15:11 <ehird> I've forgotten
09:15:13 * AnMaster looks
09:15:24 <AnMaster> <ehird> you help me with this
09:15:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> and only then.
09:15:25 <AnMaster> <oklopol> anyone here an expert on beta distribution?
09:15:25 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i wish my brain worked
09:15:25 <AnMaster> * oerjan vaguely recalls the name from statistics. that means no, btw
09:15:25 <AnMaster> * Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:15:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: There?
09:15:29 <AnMaster> * BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection)
09:15:31 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> oklopol: I'm an expert on the beta distribution the same way that I'm an expert on the derivative of x^2.
09:15:39 <ehird> AnMaster: i uh
09:15:39 <ehird> um
09:15:40 <ehird> :/
09:15:41 <ehird> no idea
09:16:10 <AnMaster> ehird, damn you. ;P Searching scrollback for highlight all in vain.
09:17:11 <ehird> [08:57] ehird: does anyone know if it's possible to take a linux installation and boot it but tell it to use another binary somewhere else as init?
09:17:13 <ehird> answer that!
09:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, of course
09:17:47 <AnMaster> ehird, known last line of rescue is to use init=/bin/busybox at the end of the kernel command line
09:17:55 <ehird> hmm
09:18:14 <ehird> I wonder what argv init gets
09:18:15 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't work very well with an initrd of course
09:18:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd expect argv[0] to be as usual, the rest none, or kernel command line maybe
09:19:02 <ehird> I think Arch uses an initrd by default
09:19:07 <AnMaster> of course you can get kernel command line easily once /proc is up
09:19:14 <AnMaster> ehird, it does. But my arch box doesn't
09:19:22 <ehird> So, I'd have to futz with it.
09:19:22 <ehird> grumble
09:19:30 <AnMaster> ehird, dropping initrd saved half a minute of boot on my old pentium3 with arch
09:19:41 <ehird> Nice.
09:19:44 * ehird ponders registering rwx.st
09:20:08 <AnMaster> from just over a minute down about 30 seconds. Then later on I managed to bring it down to ~14 seconds by messing around with init scripts
09:20:21 <AnMaster> like commenting out parts that weren't relevant to me
09:20:28 <AnMaster> oh and disabling automatic module loading
09:20:40 <AnMaster> as in, "try to load modules are required"
09:20:47 <AnMaster> everything relevant was built in anyway
09:20:51 <ehird> With my distro getting rid of unused init stuff will be really easy
09:20:59 <ehird> since you see it all every time you go to enable or disable a daemon anyway
09:21:03 <ehird> as it's the same operationn
09:21:53 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? Oh and since that box is headless all it starts is basically network, sshd, ntpd and nfs server iirc
09:21:55 * AnMaster boots it
09:22:04 <ehird> AnMaster: as in
09:22:09 <ehird> there's no separate init scripts/inittab
09:22:15 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw those 14 seconds were from grub. BIOS takes about 14 seconds itself
09:22:20 <AnMaster> or 15 rather
09:22:26 <ehird> so commenting out stuff you don't use is just adding a # before some lines in the file you use to configure daemons
09:22:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah. Makes updates a bit messy though
09:22:49 <ehird> Not really, just adding packages
09:22:53 <ehird> And that's simple to solve:
09:23:03 <ehird> # installpkg kde-bloatware
09:23:05 <ehird> Blah blah blah
09:23:07 <AnMaster> oh ffs. Judging from harddrive activity light it is fsck after n mounts time
09:23:09 * AnMaster waits
09:23:11 <ehird> This package has an init script:
09:23:14 -!- adam_d_ has joined.
09:23:27 <ehird> /etc/rc.d/kde-bloatware -- start KDE bloatware services
09:23:29 <ehird> erm
09:23:33 <ehird> /etc/rc.d/kde-bloatware.start -- start KDE bloatware services
09:23:35 <AnMaster> DAEMONS=(syslog-ng network rpcbind nfs-common @iptables @sshd @crond @ntpdate @ntpd @smartd @xinetd @nfs-server)
09:23:36 <AnMaster> ah there
09:23:38 <ehird> /etc/rc.d/kde-bloatware.stop -- stop KDE bloatware services
09:23:39 <ehird> whatever
09:23:40 <ehird> you get the idea
09:23:42 <AnMaster> a bit more than I remembered
09:23:44 <ehird> just tell the users to add the lines
09:23:46 <ehird> trivial
09:23:51 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed
09:24:53 <ehird> I sure will enjoy reporting e.g. bugs to software authors using this distro
09:25:09 <ehird> <me> author: blah blah blah, this fails when doing etc etc, not sure what the problem is, can you help?
09:25:14 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? Mostly due to a.out I assume?
09:25:16 <ehird> <author> me: ok, what distro are you using?
09:25:20 <ehird> <me> author: um, $name
09:25:28 <ehird> <author> me: never heard of it. is it a derivative or something?
09:25:33 <ehird> <me> author: well... no...
09:25:36 <ehird> <author> me: gimme a link
09:25:42 <ehird> <me> author: http://blah.org/
09:25:42 <AnMaster> heh
09:25:54 <ehird> <author> me: static binaries? a.out? this isn't 1990!
09:25:59 <ehird> <me> author: hey! they're good because--
09:26:03 <ehird> <author> me: sorry, no support
09:26:05 <ehird> <me> author: !
09:26:11 <ehird> ** author has kicked me from the channel
09:26:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I very much suspect that some binaries will break if they can't dlopen() stuff.
09:26:38 <ehird> AnMaster: That's true, but most programs let you disable that crap.
09:27:00 * AnMaster curses.... wrote "pacman -Sy upgrade"
09:27:08 <ehird> For those that really want programs that don't let you... well, I can have a dynamic linker as a package... but... stay well away if you don't absolutely have to...
09:27:11 <AnMaster> at least I didn't mix up portage into it as well
09:27:16 <AnMaster> but just apt and pacman
09:27:56 <AnMaster> ehird, what browser will you include? I somehow assume that you won't be happy with links or lynx
09:28:09 <ehird> Probably http://surf.suckless.org/.
09:28:17 <ehird> WebKit + suckless.
09:28:30 <AnMaster> oh and just a vague memory. I think a.out will confuse the hell out of boehm-gc (w3m uses that iirc)
09:28:37 * AnMaster read parts of libgc source
09:28:46 <ehird> I tried links -g incidenatlly
09:28:49 <ehird> *incidentally
09:28:51 <ehird> It's WEIRD
09:28:53 <AnMaster> ehird, poor you
09:28:56 <ehird> Does its own font rendering, I think
09:29:04 <ehird> menus and dialogs and form widgets are curses-style
09:29:14 <ehird> It'd be a lot better if it was elinks
09:29:24 <ehird> fucking annoying to have gigantic piles of list-menus blocking your view
09:29:35 <ehird> I'd have installed surf into the VM, but Arch broke libwebkit. sigh.
09:29:43 <ehird> so I'm twiddling my thumbs until they fix it
09:29:52 <ehird> (known issue.)
09:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, btw that p3 box with arch has a weird issue. If the system is loaded, new ssh connections time out
09:30:16 <ehird> see, if we had static binaries, software authors could safely supply binaries they know will work :P
09:30:18 <AnMaster> loaded here means CPU or network load
09:30:20 <AnMaster> but not disk load
09:30:24 <ehird> on almost any system
09:30:28 <ehird> with no dependencies
09:30:35 <ehird> whee, packages got updated
09:30:41 <ehird> install install install. i live for nothing other than to update packages.
09:30:59 <ehird> like all these lib*s i'm getting here. wouldn't need them with STATIC BINARIES DID I MENTION STATIC BINARIES :P
09:31:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you know python will break badly by this?
09:31:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Fairly sure it won't. Care to justify?
09:31:19 <AnMaster> ehird, all loadable C modules will break.
09:31:21 <AnMaster> they are *.so
09:31:27 <AnMaster> and they aren't *that* uncommon
09:31:39 <ehird> I'm something like 47% sure I could link them in.
09:31:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes you could. But then you would need to rebuild python to add a new one
09:32:13 <ehird> Yes. Just like the kernel.
09:32:21 <ehird> Here's an idea.
09:32:33 <ehird> C modules are packages that install .as to a directory somewhere.
09:32:42 <ehird> And the builder script just links in them all.
09:32:46 <ehird> Same with kernel modules.
09:32:58 <ehird> That way you can install/uninstall modules, and just flip the buildkernel binary or whatever and it'll all work.
09:33:07 <ehird> The modules are implemented at the package level, effectively.
09:35:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Zzzz").
09:36:59 <AnMaster> hm
09:37:12 <ehird> Of course, it is annoying.
09:37:20 <ehird> The kernel can be fast to build, Python not so much.
09:37:31 <AnMaster> ehird, would need some adjustments to the binary linking. But quite possible in theory yes
09:37:33 <ehird> And definitely slower than downloading a binary on a fast connection.
09:37:38 <ehird> Plus it's a pain for the user...
09:37:40 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and X... X loads drivers and such as *.so
09:37:52 <AnMaster> would need to patch X quite a bit
09:37:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, pretty sure you can link those in.
09:38:28 <AnMaster> ehird, with python it is easy to (just change the C code a bit so it looks like those modules already built into python)
09:38:37 <AnMaster> with X I suspect it needs some more work
09:38:54 <ehird> you have to patch it?
09:38:57 <ehird> urgh
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09:39:41 <AnMaster> ehird, python? well yes think so. So that the module is initialised the right way. Some minor adjustments only. Possibly adding to some array of modules in the main python binary (not sure about that bit)
09:40:17 <ehird> Maybe I can write a fun stub dynamic linker that does some sort of unholy hack using processes...
09:40:24 <ehird> As in, an .so is a binary, and it spawns it...
09:40:31 <ehird> ...on the other hand that would be unholy
09:40:38 <AnMaster> ehird, shared memory mess?
09:40:39 <AnMaster> hm
09:40:53 <AnMaster> doesn't *.exe and *.dll have different address spaces on windows iirc?
09:41:03 <AnMaster> and you have to hack stuff when you want to share things
09:41:33 <ehird> dunno
09:41:55 <ehird> Oh
09:42:02 <ehird> I remember what I was going to ask you, AnMaster
09:42:05 <AnMaster> oh?
09:42:12 <ehird> AnMaster: is it possible to compile a gentoo system using static binaries?
09:42:57 <AnMaster> ehird, unknown. But since portage is in python I see a potential problem right there.
09:43:14 <ehird> Compile static binaries != omit dynamic linker
09:43:18 <ehird> == pass -static to everything
09:43:33 <ehird> AnMaster: does it still take 24h to compile everything?
09:43:48 <AnMaster> ehird, true. But you can't easily mix dynamic linking and static linking iirc
09:44:05 <ehird> Yes you can.
09:44:09 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on hardware. Haven't done a clean install of gentoo for ages.
09:44:10 <ehird> a -static binary can easily dlopen().
09:44:16 <ehird> Hardware is... a VM.
09:45:12 <AnMaster> ehird, it won't be as fast as installing ubuntu of course. And it will require user interaction in many parts. Unless you use that "not really newfangled any longer" GUI installer. Which I never tried.
09:45:15 <AnMaster> not sure how it works
09:45:37 <ehird> I don't mind interaction, but if it takes 4 hours or more I'm pretty much not going to bother.
09:45:53 <AnMaster> other people complained it was laughably bad in the beginning. I assume it improved
09:46:03 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how much system you want
09:46:14 <AnMaster> full blown KDE?
09:46:29 <AnMaster> or bootable system without X?
09:46:49 <ehird> Small kernel (but I don't want to configure it manually), hopefully with no initrd or anything, networking, X11.
09:46:52 <ehird> That's pretty much it.
09:49:10 <ehird> 2.1ghz core 2 duo, 1 gib of ram, pretty boring vm/host really
09:52:05 <AnMaster> ehird, manually or auto with initramfs are the options iirc
09:52:19 <AnMaster> unless genkernel nowdays can generate without initramfs
09:52:20 <ehird> Fine, I can do that.
09:52:25 <ehird> So how long would it take, roughly?
09:52:36 <ehird> <4 hours, <10 hours, <24 hours, <48 hours?
09:52:39 <AnMaster> ehird, was that "no X" or "with X"?
09:52:44 <ehird> With X.
09:53:05 <ehird> Drivers supplied by VirtualBox, nothing else needed apart from vesa to bootstrap.
09:53:15 <AnMaster> hm. assuming a system with dual quad core Xeon CPUs?
09:53:30 <ehird> [09:49] ehird: 2.1ghz core 2 duo, 1 gib of ram, pretty boring vm/host really
09:53:40 <AnMaster> right
09:53:45 <ehird> 7200 rpm disk :P
09:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, could be less than 4. Definitely less than 6 at least.
09:54:25 <AnMaster> unless things got a lot more bloated since 2007
09:54:45 <ehird> how big are dem livecds i wonder...
09:55:09 <AnMaster> ehird, classical command line stage3 install would only require minimal cd. which is around 100 MB for x86_64
09:55:20 <ehird> lol, a livedvd
09:55:29 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw if you got for multilib x86_64 it will probably not manage in less than 4 hours
09:55:38 <ehird> i wonder what exactly they have on that monstrosity over ubuntu's 700 megs
09:55:43 <ehird> livedvd, sheesh
09:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, source?
09:55:50 <ehird> LiveDVD (released Oct 10, 2009)
09:55:51 <ehird> (up to 2.6 gigabytes depending on arch)
09:55:51 <ehird> amd64 x86
09:55:53 <ehird> http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml
09:56:39 <AnMaster> ehird, minimal install + stage3 install following manual
09:56:42 <AnMaster> is what I would do
09:56:54 <AnMaster> like "LFS light" I guess
09:56:59 <ehird> stage3 has compiled stuff doesn't it
09:57:17 <AnMaster> ehird, stage3 is enough base system to compile new stuff
09:57:29 <ehird> so, not static binaries then
09:57:37 <AnMaster> but if you are going for static it will likely take longer, due to having to figure out how.
09:57:52 <AnMaster> some packages do have an useflag "static"
09:57:58 <ehird> CFLAGS=-static
09:58:03 <ehird> the chainsaw maneuver
10:00:46 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. I won't be surprised if things break
10:00:48 <AnMaster> like glibc
10:00:55 <AnMaster> not sure about other libcs
10:00:58 <AnMaster> never tried
10:01:32 <ehird> bleh
10:01:33 <ehird> no point with all that
10:01:37 <ehird> I'll just jump straight to my distro
10:02:17 <ehird> it won't be hard
10:02:26 <ehird> as soon as I have a kernel and an init it can be booted
10:02:30 -!- adam_d has joined.
10:02:46 <ehird> but... I need hardware first
10:03:00 <ehird> because VMs reaaaaaaaaaaaally aren't real world
10:04:36 <ehird> anyone got an old computer they want to give to me? :P
10:04:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why not use your mac?
10:05:14 <ehird> one because the cognitive dissonance of such an environment on the quite frankly pretty opposite iMac would probably break my brain
10:05:22 <ehird> two because the damn EFI would be bigger than my distro!*
10:05:24 <ehird> *exaggeration
10:05:34 <ehird> three because i don't want to deal with EFI and crap
10:05:44 <ehird> four because eh
10:05:49 <ehird> I can't swap the hardware easily
10:05:55 <ehird> I can't test whether new hardware works or whatever
10:06:12 <ehird> can't swap an SSD in to test performance
10:06:12 <ehird> etc
10:07:08 <ehird> plus
10:07:15 <ehird> everyone else is going to be running this on pc hardware
10:07:21 <ehird> and i want to minimise my pain
10:08:46 <ehird> besides, the silent pc tinkerer in me still hasn't found release
10:09:45 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:12:23 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
10:12:38 <AnMaster> ehird, so you were the guy that said "Hi! I'm Linux"?
10:12:59 <AnMaster> except you pretended you were the Mac guy
10:13:09 <ehird> lol
10:13:15 <ehird> http://dmartin.org/files/Mac_linux.jpg
10:13:39 <AnMaster> ehird, one of several variants of it
10:13:44 <ehird> yeah
10:14:58 <ehird> anyway I'm kinda reluctant to call it a linux distro because when i say linux distro i get a clear picture and my head and mine isn't it...
10:15:29 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be a linux distro
10:15:30 <ehird> ("almost certainly cookie-cutter" and "all the general 'modern' crap")
10:15:32 <ehird> AnMaster: yes
10:15:33 <AnMaster> just not a GNU/Linux one
10:15:37 <ehird> touché
10:15:42 <ehird> that's a good way of explaining it
10:16:01 <AnMaster> ehird, it is kind of the inverse of Debian/BSD in a way
10:16:06 <ehird> heh
10:16:40 <AnMaster> ehird, what will it be called?
10:17:01 <ehird> man, I'm terrible at names...
10:17:08 <AnMaster> microdon linux?
10:17:13 <ehird> haha
10:17:27 <ehird> midget linux
10:17:32 <AnMaster> heh
10:17:42 <ehird> monolith (ooh that's a good one)
10:17:45 <ehird> (not very googlable though)
10:17:54 <ehird> monolix.. aw, it's taken.
10:18:01 <ehird> monolux is too
10:19:47 <ehird> I wonder what my install procedure will be like
10:20:30 <ehird> Probably just "use the package manager to install the packages inside the empty partition" for the most part.
10:20:32 <ehird> How boring.
10:20:41 <ehird> (netinstall only)
10:23:32 <AnMaster> ehird, microlith?
10:23:43 <ehird> Hey, that's an acttual existing thing.
10:23:47 <AnMaster> really?
10:24:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microlith
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10:24:50 <AnMaster> huh.
10:26:00 <ehird> anyway, no point thinking about a name now
10:26:06 <AnMaster> true
10:26:20 <ehird> I'll probably call the init something lame like ehird's init anyway
10:26:22 <AnMaster> ehird, git is too bloated for this btw. I suggest rcs
10:26:28 <ehird> And the package manager might have its own name
10:26:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Heh.
10:26:52 <ehird> Methinks git is not bloated. :P
10:27:02 <AnMaster> ehird, sec
10:27:42 <AnMaster> 85616 /usr/bin/rcs
10:27:47 <AnMaster> 945520 /usr/bin/git
10:27:49 <AnMaster> that is bytes
10:28:10 <ehird> You forgot the few git-*s!
10:28:15 <AnMaster> hm seems like rcs consists of several binaries too
10:28:24 <ehird> git-cvsserver, git-shell, you know, all these things.
10:28:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought they were symlinks or such?
10:28:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes.
10:28:28 <ehird> Many binaries.
10:28:33 <ehird> Also, that was abolished.
10:28:37 <ehird> These are just auxillary tool,s.
10:28:41 <ehird> *auxiliary
10:28:43 <ehird> *tools
10:29:08 <AnMaster> $ qlist git | wc -l
10:29:08 <AnMaster> 690
10:29:12 <AnMaster> $ qlist rcs | wc -l
10:29:12 <AnMaster> 30
10:29:26 <ehird> Oh shush you.
10:29:43 <AnMaster> ehird, half of the git files are in /usr/share/doc anyway
10:29:51 <AnMaster> at least half
10:29:53 <ehird> All that pesky documentation. Just bloat!
10:30:00 <AnMaster> ehird, exactly!
10:30:10 <AnMaster> half of rcs is docs too
10:30:12 <ehird> Use your MIND to understand it.
10:30:15 <AnMaster> just that half is much smaller half
10:30:36 <AnMaster> $ qlist rcs | grep -v /usr/share | wc -l
10:30:37 <AnMaster> 11
10:30:40 <pikhq> ehird: RE: static Gentoo.
10:30:41 <AnMaster> $ qlist git | grep -v /usr/share | wc -l
10:30:41 <AnMaster> 157
10:30:49 <pikhq> You could back in 2005; the profile for that is no longer maintained at all.
10:31:05 <pikhq> Dropped along with uclibc support.
10:31:15 <ehird> pikhq: Bastards.
10:31:29 <pikhq> Yeah; I'm kinda upset about it too.
10:31:30 <AnMaster> $ qlist rcs | grep -v /usr/share | xargs du -bh --total | tail -n 1
10:31:30 <AnMaster> 6,4M total
10:31:33 <AnMaster> $ qlist git | grep -v /usr/share | xargs du -bh --total | tail -n 1
10:31:33 <AnMaster> 11M total
10:31:43 <AnMaster> ehird, git is bloated. Even excluding docs
10:31:51 <AnMaster> (and possibly other non-docs in /usr/share)
10:31:58 <pikhq> ... Git does a lot more than rcs.
10:32:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah of course
10:32:04 <ehird> pikhq: I have to wonder if any user or developer ever really wanted dynamic linking before some crazy guy added it.
10:32:07 <AnMaster> but that wasn't the point here
10:32:09 <ehird> AnMaster: wow, rcs is that big?
10:32:12 <ehird> git is that small?
10:32:19 <ehird> that's a really tiny difference considering how much better git is
10:32:53 <AnMaster> ehird, 13 MB with the compressed docs in /usr/share
10:32:57 <AnMaster> gentoo uses lzma it seems
10:32:59 <pikhq> rcs is like the worst revision control system that actually does the job of a revision control system...
10:33:09 <AnMaster> must have been a recent change
10:33:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Gentoo uses whatever PORTAGE_COMPRESS is set to.
10:33:12 <AnMaster> was bz2 before
10:33:14 <ehird> You're being too kind to rcs, pikhq.
10:33:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, true
10:33:22 <ehird> pikhq: Consider.
10:33:25 <ehird> CVS is actually better than RCS.
10:33:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, worse than visual sourcesafe?
10:33:43 <ehird> AnMaster: do you just have an internal macro that uses anything microsoft as a lowest common denominator?
10:33:50 <pikhq> They may have changed it in the 10.0 profile; I dunno, I set PORTAGE_COMPRESS to lzma quite a while ago.
10:34:11 <pikhq> ehird: RCS does the job. *Barely*.
10:34:21 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, but, you know how bad CVS is?
10:34:25 <pikhq> Absurdly.
10:34:26 <ehird> pikhq: CVS was AN IMPROVEMENT on RCS.
10:34:29 <ehird> Think about that.
10:34:46 <AnMaster> ehird, not a macro. it is a <whateever the name for built in function is in lisp>
10:34:53 <AnMaster> <something> form iirc?
10:35:04 <ehird> Someone written in Lisp would never code in Bash and C.
10:35:07 <pikhq> ehird: I'm saying that the only things worse than RCS are adhoc shared directories with "branches" consisting of "renaming files" and crazy shit like that.
10:35:21 <AnMaster> ah
10:35:23 <AnMaster> special form
10:35:24 <AnMaster> it waas
10:35:30 <ehird> Your aa key is stuttering.
10:35:35 <AnMaster> yeah
10:35:36 <AnMaster> it is
10:35:43 <ehird> Either that or your a key actually has "aa" printed on it, which would be lulzy.
10:35:55 <pikhq> cp foo "fooBar";cp foo "baz/foo"; # There's revision control!
10:36:17 <ehird> "cp" "foo" "foobar"
10:36:23 <ehird> Useless use of quotes award!
10:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, my finggeerrs are ccoold.
10:36:44 <AnMaster> shatttering finger nails I gueesss
10:36:47 <pikhq> ehird: I typed that in meaning to use spaces and didn't use spaces.
10:36:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Put the damn heating on.
10:37:00 <AnMaster> ehird, it is on.
10:37:04 <ehird> Turn it up.
10:37:45 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you turn a fireplace up?
10:38:02 <AnMaster> (j/k, both the electric heater and the fireplace are "on")
10:38:14 <ehird> How cold is it indoors in Sweden?!
10:38:23 <ehird> Surely those would be enough to warm any room.
10:39:03 <AnMaster> ehird, house built in 1907. Sure it has been upgraded since then. But still, not quite the same as a modern house
10:39:18 <ehird> Yes, but really, those would be enough to warm a 5 C room.
10:39:24 <ehird> Maybe.
10:39:30 <pikhq> ehird: How warm of you.
10:39:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I estimate it is around 17 C indoors atm
10:39:55 <ehird> I bet people in Nordic countries are actually warmer than e.g. Brits, because they always have heating on.
10:40:00 <ehird> (indoors)
10:40:24 <AnMaster> ehird, not during middle of summer
10:40:29 <ehird> Well, yeah.
10:40:31 <AnMaster> say, june-august
10:40:35 <ehird> But your summers are probably better than ours.
10:40:37 <AnMaster> in these parts of Sweden
10:40:44 <ehird> We get, uh, rain.
10:40:47 <ehird> Maybe a few days of sun.
10:40:50 <AnMaster> maybe only July in north Sweden
10:40:56 <AnMaster> ehird, we do get *some* rain too
10:40:59 <ehird> Brr, subarctic climatee.
10:41:01 <ehird> *climate
10:41:07 <AnMaster> but UK always get rain
10:41:08 <ehird> It's like bipolar disorder for weather.
10:41:29 <ehird> HEY THIS SUMMER IS PRETTY COOL
10:41:34 <ehird> wow it is winter and my toes fell off
10:41:37 <ehird> repeat ad infinitum
10:42:00 <ehird> also, the sun becomes retarded
10:42:06 <ehird> "ima stay up here for dayz"
10:42:16 <ehird> "but but i dont wanna get up for like. a day"
10:43:33 <ehird> Incidentally...
10:44:00 <ehird> You could make a passable multitouch surface with some patterned glass and a webcam chip.
10:44:08 <ehird> Quite easy to detect a hand.
10:44:15 <ehird> And fingers, with an appropriate pattern.
10:44:45 <AnMaster> ehird, "a day"?
10:44:50 <AnMaster> more than that in Kiruna
10:45:04 <ehird> Yeah, it's like night and day for months in subarctic climates.
10:45:09 <AnMaster> like a few months during summer all up and some months during winter all down
10:45:11 <ehird> Horrible.
10:45:33 <ehird> Although...
10:45:35 <AnMaster> ehird, quite cool to see the sun going around to the north instead of setting
10:45:39 <AnMaster> as a tourist I mean
10:45:43 <AnMaster> wouldn't want to live there
10:46:02 <ehird> The daylight parts + everyone adopts Uberman = HAHA WE ARE TOTALLY TWICE AS AWESOME AS YOU
10:46:05 * AnMaster has been up there during summer
10:46:20 <ehird> "We're just up. Almost continuously."
10:46:25 <ehird> "Day. Forever."
10:48:20 <AnMaster> nah
10:49:13 <ehird> Why nah?
10:50:14 <AnMaster> people sleep during the time that would have been night
10:50:30 <ehird> I know, but if everyone did adopt Uberman, it would be colossally awesome.
10:50:41 <AnMaster> that is. when the sun is standing in north
10:52:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
10:52:21 <ehird> Fun thing to do: Mirror entire compilation setup for my distro, type "mk". Watch every package in the whole distro compile.
10:52:29 <ehird> Wheeeeeeeeeeee
10:52:50 <AnMaster> ehird, in parallel?
10:53:12 <AnMaster> does mk support -j (or equivalent)
10:53:14 <AnMaster> ?
10:53:21 <ehird> Yes:
10:53:27 * AnMaster imagines a cluster
10:53:43 <ehird> "The environment variable $NPROC determines how many targets may be updated simultaneously; Some operating systems, e.g. Plan 9, set $NPROC automatically to the number of CPUs on the current machine."
10:53:43 <AnMaster> ibm roadrunner. How many seconds will it take?
10:53:56 <ehird> How about Blue Gene, which runs Plan 9?
10:54:06 <AnMaster> ehird, heh good idea
10:54:07 <ehird> Anyway, I don't know. Less than a minute for sure.
10:54:14 <ehird> Maybe more if you include KDE ;-)
10:54:28 <ehird> Anyway, I hope I don't outgrow having to compile every package myself...
10:54:44 <ehird> I doubt I'd be able to get people to contribute server resources.
10:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah. some stuff can't be done in parallel. Like when you have to generate the source file for something else (think: flex, bison, ...)
10:55:41 <AnMaster> ehird, predition: you won't be the next ubuntu
10:56:07 <ehird> Quite.
10:56:32 <ehird> I don't expect more than, say, 100 users for a long time.
10:56:39 <ehird> Even that's pushing it.
10:56:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd expect ~1 user
10:56:52 <ehird> I don't think that's true.
10:56:53 <AnMaster> plus a few that tries it out
10:56:58 <AnMaster> and then goes elsewhere
10:57:10 <ehird> I'll be pretty committed to maintaining packages.
10:57:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well. zzo could have used it. But he will likely make his own as well instead
10:57:18 <ehird> And there isn't really anything like it. stali is the closest.
10:57:24 <AnMaster> rather than using your
10:57:32 <ehird> AnMaster: zzo doesn't innovate, though... he just reinvents at the same level.
10:57:37 <ehird> He doesn't do anything new.
10:57:41 <AnMaster> true
10:57:49 <AnMaster> ehird, and adds options to it
10:57:49 <ehird> Uh, no offence if he's reading this.
10:57:52 <AnMaster> to set window title
10:58:06 <ehird> Here's a good option: "Name of this option"
10:58:12 <ehird> It's a string, defaults to "Name of this option"
10:58:17 <AnMaster> heh
10:58:31 <ehird> [X] The state of this option
10:58:57 <AnMaster> mhm
10:59:45 <ehird> I imagine if I posted it on the Arch Linux forums I'd get some users, even if only temporarily. (But I don't really like the crowd there.)
10:59:58 <ehird> And I'm not masochistic enough to create busywork for myself like that.
11:00:10 <AnMaster> ehird, unlike your mom
11:00:20 <ehird> Uh-huh.
11:00:21 <AnMaster> (too good chance to miss)
11:00:48 <AnMaster> no offence meant of course
11:01:53 <AnMaster> (heh "no offence meant" after a your mom joke really makes no sense)
11:02:27 <ehird> Guess who else really makes no sense?
11:02:28 <ehird> Hitler.
11:02:33 <ehird> (No offence)
11:03:24 <AnMaster> :P
11:08:22 <ehird> I wonder how much stuff compiles with libc5.
11:08:57 <AnMaster> ehird, why libc5?
11:09:13 <AnMaster> I'm not suggesting glibc
11:09:20 <AnMaster> just something modern
11:09:23 <ehird> Last non-glibc release. I was just curious.
11:09:25 <AnMaster> like uclibc or something
11:09:44 <AnMaster> or porting BSD libc?
11:09:56 <AnMaster> (actually scratch that)
11:10:15 <ehird> uclibc is lgpl
11:10:22 <AnMaster> okay
11:10:25 <ehird> so I can't distribute statically linked uclibc binaries,
11:10:28 <ehird> without also distributing an unlinked .o
11:10:32 <ehird> = not happening
11:10:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what will you use instead of bison?
11:10:43 <AnMaster> and flex
11:10:44 <ehird> Um, yacc.
11:10:46 <AnMaster> ah
11:10:48 <AnMaster> right
11:10:55 <ehird> Of course if some stuff depends on either they can have it,.
11:10:58 <ehird> *it.
11:11:09 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc ick does
11:11:15 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't that right?
11:11:22 <ehird> Anyway, my only existing options are Newlib and Bionic (Android's).
11:11:39 <ehird> Bionic doesn't support /etc/passwd or fstab and their user stuff is hardcoded and stuff, but with hackery it would make a nice BSD-licensed minimalist libc.
11:11:41 <AnMaster> ehird, or porting netbsd libc
11:11:46 <ehird> But still, it's always going to be dictated by Android.
11:11:54 <ehird> Newlib is stale but, I think, acceptable.
11:11:57 <ehird> It feels very meh, though.
11:12:02 <ehird> And I don't like Red Hat.
11:12:07 <ais523> AnMaster: ick depends on a yacc-like and a lex-like
11:12:08 <ehird> AnMaster: That is one option.
11:12:13 <ais523> I don't think they have to be bison and flex specifically
11:12:16 <ehird> AnMaster: It'd be a lot of work, though. A lot.
11:12:22 <ehird> They use lots of BSD-only stuff.
11:12:28 <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't it some infinite lookahead for '. or something like that?
11:12:36 * AnMaster forgot the details of that parsing issue
11:12:38 <ehird> AnMaster: And BSD libc and BSD kernel are even more tied together than BSD kernel and BSD userland.
11:12:52 <ehird> I don't like being dictated by the whims of the developers of the BSD, y'know?
11:13:01 <AnMaster> ehird, true
11:13:03 <AnMaster> ehird, your own libc?
11:13:19 <ehird> I'm no good at optimisation.
11:13:29 <AnMaster> oh?
11:13:41 <AnMaster> why not
11:13:44 <ehird> Dunno.
11:13:54 <ehird> Anyway, maintaining a compatible libc would be a metric fuckton of work.
11:13:59 <ehird> Enough to build a small company around.
11:14:01 <AnMaster> true
11:14:25 <ehird> dietlibc would be so, so perfect if only its author wasn't a lunatic who GPL licenses it to stop Microsoft stealing it *sigh*.
11:14:38 <AnMaster> ehird, what architectures will you support?
11:14:47 <ehird> i686
11:15:09 <AnMaster> no 64-bit?
11:15:09 <ehird> before you ask the answer is compatibility
11:15:17 <ehird> i said that before that appeared on my screen :)
11:15:31 <AnMaster> ehird, reverse order here :P
11:15:38 <AnMaster> diff by one sec
11:15:42 <AnMaster> well
11:15:47 <AnMaster> I don't have sub-second timestamps
11:15:47 <ehird> anyway, 64-bit doesn't really have any advantages apart from registers
11:16:00 <ehird> it uses the PAE hack just like you can do in 32-bit, so no advantages for lots of memory
11:16:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and with more than 4 GB RAM.
11:16:05 <ehird> PAE
11:16:06 <AnMaster> ehird, wrong
11:16:10 <AnMaster> PAE is for kerne
11:16:11 <AnMaster> kernel*
11:16:21 <AnMaster> user space can't have more than 4 GB in one process
11:16:24 <ehird> well, sure
11:16:40 <ehird> that's a pretty edge user case.
11:16:59 <AnMaster> ehird, currently, sure
11:17:18 <ehird> when it becomes common I'll flip some switches and make it 64-bit only
11:17:25 <ehird> (processes using over 4 GiB)
11:17:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and imagine working with IPv6 ips. dividing two of them on 32-bit needs a lot more operations than on 64-bit (no clue why you would do that though)
11:17:50 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway clearly the larger filesystems and higher ram usage cause the need to use >4 GiB, 64-bit is inverse-of-self-defeating ;-)
11:18:11 <ehird> IPv6 is divided into blocks
11:18:13 <ehird> ...literally
11:18:18 <AnMaster> true
11:18:35 <ehird> you can, for instance, get all addresses divisible by 39853948
11:18:36 <ehird> :-P
11:18:42 <ehird> *note: total lies
11:18:55 <AnMaster> err yeah total lies
11:19:17 <AnMaster> but what then did you mean by blocks. Not same as I was thinking about presumably
11:19:23 <ehird> i'd like to watch a totally serious documentary that isn't outrageously absurd, except the only problem is it's filled with things that are total lies
11:19:26 <ehird> simply not true
11:20:00 <AnMaster> ehird, if it wasn't outrageously absurd, idiots would think it was true
11:20:05 <AnMaster> thus no one dare produce that
11:20:23 <ehird> Just put "Note: All of the following contents are full of complete lies." at the start :P
11:21:02 <AnMaster> ehird, no one would see that, everyone would think it was the usual "you may not copy, lend, watch or touch this dvd blah blah"
11:21:13 <ehird> Then that is their problem.
11:21:53 <AnMaster> (that was an example of outrageously absurd btw)
11:23:00 <ehird> I think newlib is my best option for now
11:27:24 <ehird> dddfs
11:28:36 <Pthing> a while back i wrote 2/3 out in full peano set theoretic notation
11:28:45 <Pthing> all {{{{}}}{}{}{}{{}}}, rhythm
11:29:01 <Pthing> well yesterday i got round to turning that into music
11:29:26 <Pthing> so { goes up a n-tatonic tone, } goes down, a comma is a pause and so on similarly
11:29:34 <AnMaster> huh
11:29:43 <Pthing> http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsecrests5-tet.mp3
11:30:16 <Pthing> it is surprisingly (except not because it's pretty richly structured) melodic
11:30:21 <AnMaster> Pthing, peano set theoretic notation? *googles*
11:30:36 <Pthing> yeah
11:30:36 <Pthing> http://lebesgue.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/two-thirds-of-nothing/
11:30:37 <ehird> x_x
11:31:04 <AnMaster> Pthing, that seems to be a rather verbose notation in any case
11:31:09 <Pthing> the integers are constructed as an equivalence set of ordered pairs of naturals
11:31:41 <Pthing> and 2/3 with a dedekind cut using integers
11:31:52 <ehird> Pthing: i like this mp3
11:31:58 <AnMaster> Pthing, how long is it?
11:32:03 <Pthing> uh, 20 minutes
11:32:08 <AnMaster> Pthing, wow
11:32:14 <Pthing> there are shorter versions
11:32:16 <ehird> says the classical listener.
11:32:35 <AnMaster> ehird, usually you get around 10 minutes at most, unless it is Mahler.
11:32:46 <AnMaster> this is more Gregor-esque
11:32:50 <AnMaster> in length
11:32:54 <ehird> so what
11:33:10 <Pthing> http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/onetwentiethat200hz.mp3 is 5 minutes for example
11:33:19 <Pthing> and considerably more manic, especially given it doesn't have rests
11:33:21 <ehird> Pthing: i'm listening to this and all three of my neurons dedicated to saying "hey is this philip glass" are firing ontinuously
11:33:26 <Pthing> it's also not on any musical scale
11:33:27 <AnMaster> Pthing, there is some bas sound in the bg?
11:33:30 <Pthing> ehird, yes, it's uncanny
11:33:31 <AnMaster> Pthing, of the first one I mean
11:33:38 <ehird> *continuously
11:33:50 <Pthing> AnMaster, two sources of gunk because I hacked it together quickly
11:33:58 <Pthing> the "rests" are actually 25 hz tones
11:34:18 <Pthing> the clicking is because when it adds tones, it just writes them sequentially, so it's all very cuspy
11:34:29 <Pthing> hence you get a clicking at every note, but I think it helps
11:34:30 <AnMaster> Pthing, why not silent rests?
11:34:35 * ehird pauses to listen to the 5m one
11:34:37 <ehird> AnMaster: wuick hack
11:34:39 <ehird> as he said
11:34:41 <AnMaster> mhm
11:34:41 <ehird> *quick
11:34:52 <Pthing> i put it to 1 but something horrible happened
11:35:07 <AnMaster> non-euclidean horrible?
11:35:08 <ehird> http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/onetwentiethat200hz.mp3 isn't very good. :P
11:35:18 <Pthing> well see it's not even scaled
11:35:30 <Pthing> it just turns the frequency up or down 200 hz linearly
11:35:37 <AnMaster> ah indeed
11:35:41 <Pthing> doing it on a chromatic scale is also weird
11:35:42 <Pthing> http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/onetenth12-tet.mp3
11:35:44 <Pthing> because boring
11:35:55 <Pthing> but it sounds a little like The Flight of the Bumble Bee
11:36:00 * ehird lols
11:36:18 <AnMaster> Pthing, ghostly theme on hyper speed?
11:36:30 <AnMaster> for the last one
11:36:32 <Pthing> what's the ghostly theme
11:36:51 <AnMaster> Pthing, thing SNES RPG or such. Ghost wood. the theme there.
11:37:01 <AnMaster> where SNES RPG is any generic SNES RPG
11:37:05 <AnMaster> (almost)
11:37:07 <Pthing> i don't know it, but I see your point
11:37:22 <Pthing> the philip glass thing is a good point
11:37:39 <Pthing> if it were orchestrated properly, it would sound surprisingly good for all that it is entirely algorithmic
11:37:43 <AnMaster> Pthing, why not use midi btw?
11:37:57 <Pthing> because I've not worked out how to get python to do midi yet
11:38:01 <AnMaster> hah
11:38:22 <Pthing> whereas getting it to write sine waves to wav is a matter of stealing code from somebody's blog
11:38:40 <AnMaster> Pthing, http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonInMusic ?
11:38:43 <AnMaster> first google hit
11:38:54 <Pthing> yeah, i looked all that up
11:39:18 <Pthing> but i figured also i might as well just do bleep bloop sine waves to see if it was worth making it prettier
11:39:54 <ehird> http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsecrests5-tet.mp3 settles into a beat after a while
11:39:56 <ehird> a sort of rhythm
11:40:03 <AnMaster> Pthing, using silence for pauses might work better. Not sure though
11:40:06 <ehird> like, the repetition has abstracted away into a rhyythm
11:40:08 <ehird> *rhythm
11:40:19 <Pthing> AnMaster, well undoubtedly yes
11:40:31 <ehird> I like the little pats
11:40:37 <ehird> click things
11:40:39 <ehird> but duller
11:40:42 <ehird> don't fix them :P
11:40:44 <AnMaster> Pthing, especially since I have good enough headphones to hear those 25 Hz tones quite clearly
11:40:48 <Pthing> me too
11:40:51 <ehird> AnMaster: lowpass
11:41:06 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
11:41:08 <Pthing> yeah i probably ought to try that
11:41:10 <Pthing> let's see
11:41:14 <ehird> run it through a lowpass filter
11:41:15 <Pthing> but the clicks
11:41:16 <ehird> at 25 Hz
11:41:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm just doing: $ mplayer http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsecrests5-tet.mp3
11:41:30 <ehird> So don't, ffs.
11:41:32 <AnMaster> would be a PITA to figure out how
11:41:36 <Pthing> i don't see any way short of like, smoothing out the waveform somehow to get rid of them, nor do I want to get rid of them
11:41:39 <ehird> sox
11:41:50 <Pthing> probably in the ~~real orchestration~~ there's some violins just going duhduhduhduhduh
11:41:53 <ehird> Pthing: open audacity, put wav in, lowpass
11:42:00 <Pthing> yes
11:42:18 <AnMaster> Pthing, why insert silence instead from the beginning? Is that harder?
11:42:25 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Spectrogram-of-swept-triangular-wave.png ;; the matrix data centre!
11:42:47 <AnMaster> ehird, hah
11:42:54 <Pthing> AnMaster, yeah, the way I've jambed the stolen code in, it's difficult to get it to pass through to silence
11:43:10 <Pthing> without adding more jambed code, by which point I shouldn't be jambing shit together like that
11:43:20 <AnMaster> Pthing, getting this on piano or such would be awesome
11:43:36 <Pthing> i still think it'd be better as a string quartet
11:43:59 <AnMaster> Pthing, maybe. Seems a bit too fast for that though
11:45:08 <AnMaster> Pthing, or playing pizzicato?
11:45:14 <Pthing> yeah!
11:45:23 <Pthing> pizzicto would get the clickiness, I guess
11:45:25 <Pthing> *cato
11:46:06 <AnMaster> Pthing, I find it hard to believe any human could manage that for ~20 minutes though :P
11:46:12 <Pthing> then we'll build robots
11:46:19 <Pthing> a race of atomic supermen
11:46:23 <AnMaster> ehird, about the beat. There is a beat from the start to me
11:46:31 <ehird> aah I've always wanted a robotic math rock band
11:46:45 <ehird> their timing would be IMPECCABLE
11:48:17 <Pthing> oh wait hang on i think i see a way to get silences
11:48:49 <ehird> noo you'll ruin it
11:48:59 <Pthing> maybe, maybe not
11:49:01 <Pthing> we'll see
11:49:09 <fizzie> Just add "-af sinesuppress=25" or "-af equalizer=-12:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0" to the mplayer command line. (Disclaimer: I don't know whether either one will work, can't seem to find a generic FIR filter there.)
11:49:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, the second one. What does it mean?
11:49:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, the first one doesn't
11:50:08 <AnMaster> nor the second
11:50:40 <fizzie> It's a 10-band equalizer; that line of numbers is telling it to provide -12 dB of amplification at 31.25 Hz, 0 on all other bands; it should at least make any 25 Hz frequency components less loud.
11:51:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, not by much
11:51:55 <ehird> the ending is n ice
11:51:59 <ehird> the low tone
11:52:00 <ehird> *nice
11:54:08 <Pthing> yeah okay that sounds like it worked
11:55:53 <ehird> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/crabs/technical-memorandum.pdf
11:55:53 <ehird> awesome awesome awesome
11:57:15 <AnMaster> Pthing, hm? where?
11:57:21 <AnMaster> url that is
11:57:22 <Pthing> uploading
11:59:16 <ehird> damn could you implement crabs on X11?
11:59:19 <ehird> i think maybe
11:59:26 <ehird> nothing's stopping windows from fucking with each other right?
11:59:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what exactly does crabs do? I find that scanned text quite hard to read
12:00:14 <AnMaster> headache-inducing
12:00:14 <ehird> Zoom in
12:00:21 <ehird> It's impossible at smaller sizes
12:00:24 <ehird> But at bigger sizes it's fine
12:00:28 <AnMaster> mhm
12:00:33 <ehird> You really need to read it, it's awe-inspiring
12:00:39 <ehird> AnMaster: it gets better on the actual text
12:00:45 <ehird> starting "TECHNICAL MEMORANDUM", "Laws and violations"
12:00:58 <AnMaster> I read the laws and violations section
12:01:08 <AnMaster> quite funny. But I want like an abstract of crabs
12:01:17 <fizzie> Audacity's highpass filter gets rid of them reasonably well, but that's unarguably more work than just streaming through mplayer. (You really don't want to low*pass* at 25 Hz; unless you want to keep just them and discard everything else.)
12:01:25 <ehird> AnMaster: your loss; it's absolute genius
12:01:30 <ehird> summarising it would ruin it
12:01:33 <AnMaster> mhm
12:01:48 <AnMaster> ehird, it is pixly when you zoom in
12:01:57 <ehird> Don't zoom in that far then.
12:02:22 <Pthing> http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsectruerests5-tet.mp3
12:02:28 <Pthing> has true etc.
12:02:59 <fizzie> *Oh*, the name wasn't about "secrets" at all.
12:02:59 <AnMaster> Pthing, those clicks. What causes them did you say?
12:03:18 <ehird> Pthing: sounds more mechanical
12:03:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, haha
12:03:41 <Pthing> it seems to be because it writes half a second of sine wave at, say, A, then it goes up and immediately starts writing another sine wave a tone higher
12:03:49 <Pthing> so the waveform is cuspy
12:03:53 <Pthing> which clicks, I guess
12:04:08 <AnMaster> Pthing, go figure out midi :)
12:04:19 <ehird> AnMaster: do you realise how demanding that sounds
12:04:26 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah.
12:04:32 <AnMaster> I was half-joking
12:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, what is that QIX?
12:05:05 <AnMaster> that knowledge is assumed about
12:05:11 <ehird> A game of some sort.
12:05:19 <ehird> Doesn't matter too much
12:06:31 <ehird> This is from 1984, btw
12:06:40 <AnMaster> heh
12:06:42 <ehird> Bonus: It includes screenshots of circa 1984 graphical Unix environments
12:06:45 <ehird> Non-X11, I believe
12:06:53 <ehird> Including the 1-bit faces
12:07:49 <ehird> including code with k&r decls :)
12:08:05 <AnMaster> why was one of them *dicating code*
12:08:14 <ehird> Dicating?
12:08:20 <AnMaster> -typo
12:08:39 <AnMaster> (dictating of course)
12:08:40 <ehird> Dictating i.e. explaining it
12:08:50 <AnMaster> yes I know what it means
12:08:57 <AnMaster> just wondering why they did it like that
12:09:01 <ehird> No, dictating means reciting
12:09:04 <ehird> But in this context it means explaining
12:09:11 <ehird> And because people know English better than C
12:09:11 <fizzie> Pair programming, you know. Back in the eighties! How agile.
12:09:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, haha
12:09:26 <ehird> Their PRODUCTIVITY. So high. SO HIGH
12:09:58 <AnMaster> hm
12:10:28 <AnMaster> wasn't it possible back then to draw to a private buffer and blit it to the screen or such?
12:10:44 <ehird> The graphical environment was called Blit.
12:10:59 <ehird> I don't know what you mean, though.
12:11:10 <AnMaster> ehird, double buffering basically I guess.
12:11:17 <ehird> Sure, why wouldn't you be able to
12:11:29 * AnMaster just read about "angry measles"
12:11:36 <ehird> Keep going!
12:11:40 <ehird> It just gets better.
12:12:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm just wondering why they can't look at a private bitmap. which might or might not be hidden by a window on top. In theory that would work as wlel
12:12:14 <AnMaster> well*
12:12:29 <ehird> Because you can't access other process's memory.
12:12:54 <AnMaster> ehird, er. I think you misunderstood me
12:13:28 <AnMaster> I mean, like a modern game would do. Render to a canvas. You can read it yourself. Window system takes care of handling hiding part of it when another window is on top
12:14:13 <ehird> This has nothing to do with any of the demos.
12:17:39 <fizzie> Sure it does: anything that keeps a private bitmap and blits it on screen whenever some part of it changes (and periodically-but-often) is sort-of crab-immune. (The story about crabs eating someone's painting, for example, wouldn't really work on a modern painty program which doesn't use the screen as the only copy of the bitmap-being-edited.)
12:17:56 <fizzie> I'm not sure that sort of stuff would be fast enough on a terminal, though.
12:17:57 <ehird> Ah.
12:17:58 <ehird> Well, yes.
12:18:02 <ehird> Too slow, not simple enough.
12:18:12 <ehird> Not needed, because, you know.
12:18:19 <ehird> Only things like crabs break it.
12:18:26 <AnMaster> heh
12:18:32 <ehird> Besides, it's not something that's easy to discovevr.
12:18:33 <ehird> discoevr
12:18:35 <ehird> *discover
12:18:43 <ehird> It's quite ludicrous to do two graphic writes to do one
12:21:19 <ehird> "TMBR: A mind consisting of computable determinism does not perceive."
12:21:19 <ehird> Guess I'm a p-zombie then
12:22:18 <fizzie> "Anti-evolutionist Don McLeroy, a dentist and chair of the Texas State Board of Education, testified at Friday's hearing: 'I disagree with these experts. Someone has got to stand up to experts.'" Yes! Down with the experts, I say! Always being all.. experty, all over the place!
12:22:29 <AnMaster> ehird, it mentions the lens being unaffected by being re-generated. Well, basically every modern app would be unaffected. terminal would be fixed by simply scrolling it up down a few steps
12:22:33 <ehird> fizzie: >_<
12:24:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: Unless you make the crab mark onto a separate mostly-transparent window, and use a bit of programming to always keep that on top of the window below.
12:24:29 <ehird> That's no faiar.
12:24:31 <ehird> *fair
12:25:02 <fizzie> That one Windows proggie that lets you shoot your windows with a shotgun, leaving permanent marks, does something like that, I think.
12:25:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, true, and what ehird said
12:25:40 <ehird> "I believe that best form of government is a mix of libertarian, socialitic, free market policies." how coincidental, i believe the best colour is both black and white
12:26:33 <ehird> "You are everybody but don't realize it." why am I reading this subreddit, it's just uninformed idiots stating their idiotic beliefs
12:26:40 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
12:29:22 * ehird toys with the idea of registering rwx.st
12:29:28 <AnMaster> rwx.st?
12:29:29 <AnMaster> why?
12:30:02 <ehird> because I need a domain and it's short and catchy. rwx after the file permissions, st is a popular country-code-hijacked-for-generic-stuff dealie
12:30:43 <ehird> plus it looks aesthetically pleasing — http://rwx.st/bsdutils/releases/bsdutils-12.tar.gz
12:30:49 <ehird> ehird@rwx.st
12:31:03 <fizzie> ehird: And then everyone can read, write and execute you!
12:31:09 <ehird> Absolutuely!
12:31:12 <ehird> *Absolutely
12:31:21 <fizzie> Ooh, pointless X trickery: http://xdesktopwaves.sourceforge.net/
12:31:56 <ehird> Anyway, rwx.st is also pretty neutral, i.e. it's not really tied to anything because it's a meaningless jumble of letters
12:32:05 <ehird> Hard to fool myself into thinking I'll keep it forever, but eh.
12:33:01 <ehird> My only complaint is that on QWERTY, rwx is a bit left-biased.
12:33:15 <ehird> However, it's quite easy to type.
12:34:30 <augur> heyo
12:34:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't magnify screenshots
12:34:48 <AnMaster> irritating
12:34:49 <ehird> i should write a mail server thing.
12:34:50 <augur> hows it goin, kids
12:34:57 <ehird> it's going
12:34:57 <ehird> wait for it
12:34:59 <ehird> TOTALLY
12:35:00 <ehird> BITCHING
12:35:01 <ehird> RAD
12:35:06 <augur> oh man
12:35:14 <AnMaster> ehird, why write a mail server?
12:35:22 <ehird> cuz they all suck :/
12:35:25 <augur> cory doctorow has a new story out. :X
12:35:32 <AnMaster> ehird, netqmail too?
12:35:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes. I also am a bit doubtful as to how well it works on modern, compositey 3d-fluffy X stuff; the proggie seems a bit on the old side.
12:35:50 <ehird> augur: does it include a really, really, really awkward sex scene? just kidding, of course it does
12:35:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh I thought it used composite
12:36:00 <ehird> (note: I have never actually read any cory doctorow novels)
12:36:00 <AnMaster> it looked like it
12:36:09 <ehird> AnMaster: qmail is probably nice if you apply 500 paatches
12:36:13 <ehird> *patches
12:36:19 <augur> ehird: i dont know. its about decommissioning the first AI
12:36:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah that is what netqmail is about
12:36:24 <AnMaster> those 500 already
12:36:25 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't really know; it's just that GCC 2.7 doesn't sound so new. But maybe they've just tested with old compilers too.
12:36:33 <ehird> augur: "twiddle my bits baby"
12:36:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah
12:36:38 <augur> :P
12:36:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay, xshape is old iir
12:36:54 <AnMaster> iirc*
12:36:56 <ehird> AnMaster: doesn't qmail depend on daemontools crap anyway?
12:37:05 <AnMaster> ehird, you can use other ones
12:37:11 <AnMaster> ehird, like sysvinit even
12:37:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: Last release from Sat Dec 18 2004.
12:37:24 <ehird> how about rc-shell-script-init :P
12:37:41 <AnMaster> ehird, unsure. I would recommend a supervisor if possible. But not strictly needed I think
12:38:35 <ehird> Anyway, um something was meant to go here but I got distracted
12:38:43 <AnMaster> XD
12:39:09 <ehird> i have not yet slept.
12:39:26 <ehird> anyw-
12:39:30 <ehird> i'm sure it was relevant
12:39:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:39:39 <ehird> can't have been "it can't be too hard" writing a mail server will be a bitch
12:39:58 <ehird> wonder if i could avoid imap, just rsync from the server to get your mail :)
12:40:12 <ehird> ...since imap is really bad
12:40:46 <ehird> so is smtp come to think of it
12:40:56 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't avoid smtp
12:41:03 <ehird> indeed
12:41:07 <AnMaster> for like talking to other mail servers
12:41:08 <ehird> you can avoid it for sending your own mail, though
12:41:13 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
12:41:21 <ehird> for instance "ssh sendmail ..."
12:41:23 <AnMaster> well the mail server needs to use it to send it onwards
12:41:26 <ehird> (sendmail(1) != sendmail)
12:41:30 <ehird> AnMaster: well, yeah.
12:42:17 <AnMaster> ehird, ssh is bloated. Your distro should use telnet
12:42:19 <AnMaster> ;P
12:42:29 <ehird> in fact i was just starting to write a line complaining about ssh
12:42:35 <AnMaster> and rcp
12:42:37 <AnMaster> instead of scp
12:42:43 <ehird> the negotiation crap in ssh is so stupid
12:42:50 <ehird> "hurr let's put every encryption algorithm EVER"
12:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
12:42:52 <ehird> "into it"
12:42:56 <ehird> "and guarantee NONE OF THEM"
12:43:03 <ehird> "and then, just, like, chit-chat for hours to decide which to use"
12:43:14 <ehird> "WE ARE CRYPTOGRAPHERS FUCK YEAH"
12:43:32 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't seem to take long to me?
12:43:33 <ehird> also, ssh is really big so it's hard to trustt.
12:43:35 <ehird> *trust
12:43:38 <ehird> AnMaster: everything is fast.
12:44:48 <ehird> i guess i should concentrate on getting myself some hardware
12:45:02 <ehird> them new, cheaper, cooler and more energy-efficient i7s are looking mighty purty
12:46:04 <ehird> lol, intel though will apparently never stop ripping people off
12:46:13 <ehird> 2.8 GHz, $289.99
12:46:18 <ehird> 2.93 GHz, $549.99
12:46:23 <ehird> same specs otherwise
12:47:00 <ehird> i mean really, is there a >=1 GHz processor in the world that cannot be overclocked by .13?
12:49:56 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on if the 2.8 ones are made from bad 2.93 ones
12:50:05 <AnMaster> like, "they still work just fine for the lower speed"
12:50:10 <ehird> no, i highly doubt that
12:50:21 <ehird> seeing as the core i7 is the highest-end desktop processor intel offer
12:50:23 <AnMaster> somewhat like the 3 core cpus from 4 core cpus with one bad core
12:50:45 <ehird> ...I'm driven to Core 2 slightly, though, because I'd like ECC...
12:51:00 <AnMaster> ehird, i7 doesn't support ECC?
12:51:05 <ehird> Nope.
12:51:06 <AnMaster> not even in server editions?
12:51:09 <ehird> Yes.
12:51:12 <ehird> They're not i7.
12:51:16 <ehird> They're Xeon "Nehalem".
12:51:21 <AnMaster> right
12:51:25 <AnMaster> ehird, why not go for that then
12:51:35 <ehird> Because it costs like $500 more just for the CPU.
12:51:41 <AnMaster> good reason
12:52:14 <ehird> Hmm, not that bad
12:52:20 <ehird> $639.99 for 2.93 GHz
12:52:29 <ehird> No 2.8 GHz option though, just 2.66 GHz at $269.99
12:53:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you probably want kernel and libc available in cpu specific versions. For other software generic would work well
12:53:31 <AnMaster> well, maybe video player. Not sure
12:53:33 <ehird> why? debian doesn't
12:53:41 <ehird> i don't see anyone complaining
12:53:49 <ehird> heck, debian are not even 686
12:53:52 <ehird> they're 386
12:54:00 <AnMaster> ehird, ubuntu does on i686 for i386 and i686 libcs iirc
12:54:11 <AnMaster> well, cmov/non-cmov
12:54:19 <ehird> using cmov eh
12:54:20 <AnMaster> forgot when that was added exactly
12:54:24 <ehird> sounds like someone's using a pentium 4
12:54:30 <ehird> because it's a pessimisation on recent hardware
12:54:34 <ehird> and if you are using a pentium 4
12:54:37 <ehird> *BASH*
12:54:38 <ehird> *BASH*
12:54:40 <ehird> *BASH*
12:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on if the branch is predictable
12:54:45 <ehird> can dead people use pentium 4s?
12:54:55 <ehird> http://ondioline.org/mail/cmov-a-bad-idea-on-out-of-order-cpus
12:55:05 <ehird> it's bad.
12:55:23 <AnMaster> ehird, when I profiled I saw basically no difference on modern hardware. But a large speed up on a pentium 3
12:55:35 <ehird> is p3 even 686
12:55:37 <AnMaster> in a specific sample
12:55:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it is
12:55:49 <ehird> well, whatever
12:55:51 <ehird> everything is slow on a p3
12:56:08 <AnMaster> ehird, not really. remember than 14 second boot with arch and no initrd?
12:56:14 <ehird> well, sure.
12:56:17 <AnMaster> p3 at 996 MHz
12:56:27 <ehird> wanna donate that box? :P
12:56:28 <AnMaster> (lol *almost* 1 GHz!)
12:56:30 <AnMaster> ehird, no way
12:56:36 <ehird> you suck :(
12:56:37 <AnMaster> ehird, 20 GB PATA disk btw
12:56:44 <AnMaster> oh and hm 512 MB RAM at most
12:56:46 <ehird> stop saying pata nobody says pata
12:56:47 <ehird> people say ide
12:56:59 <fizzie> Debian does somewhat CPU-specific kernels; linux-image-2.6-{486,686,amd64} are available on the i386 platform.
12:57:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I say pata
12:57:10 <ehird> p3s actually went up to 1.4 GHz
12:57:11 <AnMaster> so does kernel
12:57:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, amd64 on i386?
12:57:24 <AnMaster> XD
12:57:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, if you want to run a 32-bit debian on an amd64-style CPU.
12:57:52 <fizzie> People do that sort of thing.
12:58:10 <ehird> Oh, a good reason to write my own mail server: to write my own mailing list software. Duh!
12:58:10 <fizzie> Oh, and libc6-{,i686,amd64} too.
12:58:12 <AnMaster> well chroot I guess
12:58:23 <ehird> AnMaster: you can optimise for amd64 architectures without using long mode
12:58:32 * AnMaster forces ehird to use mailman
12:58:36 <ehird> NOOOO
12:58:38 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
12:58:41 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
12:58:50 <ehird> i hereby swear off mailing lists for ever and a day
12:58:57 * AnMaster forces ehird to read his font rendered in Ariel instead of Helvetica
12:59:05 <ehird> i define ariel to be an alias to helvetica
12:59:06 <ehird> HA
12:59:07 <ehird> TYPOSPLOIT
12:59:07 <AnMaster> his mail rendered*
12:59:12 <AnMaster> ehird, argh.
12:59:37 <AnMaster> phoenix ~ $ uname -a
12:59:37 <AnMaster> Linux phoenix 2.6.31.5-L1 #1 Sun Nov 1 12:32:00 CET 2009 i686 Pentium III (Coppermine) GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
12:59:57 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core#Core_i9
13:00:00 <AnMaster> and yeah 500 MB RAM
13:00:02 <AnMaster> says free
13:00:03 <ehird> six cores? next year?
13:00:06 <ehird> 12 MiB of cache?
13:00:08 <AnMaster> total used free shared buffers cached
13:00:08 <AnMaster> Mem: 500 31 469 0 2 16
13:00:10 <ehird> FUCK YOU IINTEL
13:00:15 <ehird> FUCKING WITH MY MIND AND SHIT
13:00:16 <ehird> at least it's the same socket
13:00:21 <ehird> I HAVE LOTS OF MONEY ANYWAY RIGHT?
13:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, you do?
13:00:29 -!- fax has joined.
13:00:30 <ehird> nope
13:00:48 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you need high end hardware?
13:00:49 <ehird> well i have quite a bit but that's just because i never buy anything and little amounts accumulate, funny how that works
13:00:58 <fizzie> I can't even get my puny 4G used:
13:00:59 <fizzie> total used free shared buffers cached
13:00:59 <fizzie> Mem: 3835 2116 1719 0 139 964
13:01:03 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw your distro might be binary. but to *you* it will be source based
13:01:04 <AnMaster> since
13:01:08 <AnMaster> you know
13:01:13 <AnMaster> you will make the binary packages
13:01:16 <ehird> AnMaster: separate step
13:01:26 <ehird> i can install a package i compiled earlier that i'm not using
13:01:32 <ehird> so really it's just like maintaining a source tree
13:01:37 <ehird> a horrible source tree
13:01:41 <ehird> full of horrible software
13:01:48 <AnMaster> oh?
13:02:23 <AnMaster> cpu MHz : 996.661
13:02:23 <AnMaster> cache size : 256 KB
13:02:27 <AnMaster> and
13:02:29 <AnMaster> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pse36 mmx fxsr sse
13:02:31 <AnMaster> so few
13:02:42 <ehird> AnMaster: also because high end hardware is fast. and if you're careful with your system config and willing to get your hands dirty you can get it for quite cheap
13:03:11 <ehird> and it's way cooler to have a silent supercomputer on the floor than a silent lagger
13:03:49 <AnMaster> ehird, go arm
13:03:53 <ehird> no.
13:03:55 <fizzie> cpu MHz : 600.000
13:03:55 <fizzie> cache size : 1024 KB
13:03:55 <fizzie> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 tm pbe bts est tm2
13:04:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, more flags
13:04:17 <fizzie> Yes, but not so much more.
13:04:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, what cpu is it?
13:04:35 <AnMaster> model name : Pentium III (Coppermine)
13:04:37 <AnMaster> for the one above
13:05:00 <ehird> cpu MHz : 0.740
13:05:00 <ehird> cache size : 0 KB
13:05:00 <ehird> flags :
13:05:05 <ehird> INTEL 4004 FUCK YEAH
13:05:10 <fizzie> An "Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1400MHz"; it's just the speedstep-or-whatever-they-called-their-cpufreq-thing that's made it 600 MHz.
13:05:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
13:05:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, my p3 doesn't support cpufreq changes
13:05:37 <AnMaster> so I win
13:05:45 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But you don't have one
13:05:52 <AnMaster> ehird, and those spaces are all messed up
13:05:59 <AnMaster> not aligned like what I pasted
13:06:00 <fizzie> The Atom I have has more flags than the Athlon X2.
13:06:01 <fizzie> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm movbe lahf_lm
13:06:06 <ehird> i just copied the spaces from your first line
13:06:28 <AnMaster> ehird, um they are aligned in monspace. so it can't be same for all
13:06:30 <ehird> 12 GiB of RAM for $249.99? why, don't mind if I do
13:06:35 <ehird> AnMaster: don't care
13:07:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh that's quite a mouthful
13:07:11 <AnMaster> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm sse4_1 lahf_lm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority
13:07:15 <AnMaster> is my laptop
13:07:17 <fizzie> I think they're just making those up nowadays.
13:07:21 <AnMaster> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz
13:07:44 <ehird> $291.98 for 12 GiB DDR3 ECC.
13:07:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, that atom lacks nx?
13:09:01 <fizzie> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm sse4_1 xsave lahf_lm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority
13:09:28 <fizzie> That's a work-workstation; we're almost flag-buddies, though there's some difference somewhere, judging from the length.
13:09:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, must be a xeon or i7?
13:09:55 <fizzie> "Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q9400 @ 2.66GHz", and apparently it has xsave that yours doesn't.
13:09:56 <ehird> ugh, why can't i7 processors just support ecc?
13:09:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, xsave is new
13:10:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, said it same second
13:10:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is xsave?
13:11:10 <fizzie> AnMaster: No idea. And according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Atom_microprocessors the Atom 230 I have has "XD bit (an NX bit implementation)".
13:11:18 * ehird filters mobos by manufacturer=intel
13:11:29 <AnMaster> ehird, why?
13:11:36 <ehird> AnMaster: damn foolin' mobo vendors ain't gonna fool me no' mo'!
13:11:45 <ehird> at least i can trust intel to have a rock solid board
13:11:51 <ehird> also: intel graphics
13:11:58 <ehird> well
13:12:04 <ehird> admittedly i don't know if you can get intel graphics on the i7 boards
13:12:24 <AnMaster> ./include/asm/cpufeature.h:#define X86_FEATURE_XSAVE (4*32+26) /* XSAVE/XRSTOR/XSETBV/XGETBV */
13:12:34 <AnMaster> that is in /usr/src/linux-*/arch/x86
13:13:18 <AnMaster> http://lwn.net/Articles/281921/
13:13:27 <ehird> dear amd:
13:13:34 <ehird> why haven't you realised a good processor since the last time I checked up on you
13:13:38 <ehird> you fail at life
13:14:54 <fizzie> Heh, this X2 workstation I have has an Athlon 64 X2 5600+ with a rated TDP of 89 W; the Atom box has a TDP of 4 W. That's quite a difference in performance/watt; I mean, this box is faster, but it's certainly not 89/4 times faster.
13:14:57 <ehird> it'd be cool if you could buy actual intel graphics cards
13:15:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
13:15:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't think it scales linearly anyway. but even so
13:19:20 <fizzie> The CSC guy's "future of supercomputing" presentation had one slide, where they had calculated some specs for a hypothetical one exaflops supercomputer using today's tech; it was something like half a million cores, using about 300 megawatts of power; that's 35 % of one of Finland's four nuclear reactors. Not very feasible.
13:21:28 <fizzie> It's funny how Wikipedia's "nuclear power plant" infobox has a "Status: Operating" line, and the "Operating" text is coloured green. It makes it look like it's hooked directly to the reactor sensors and displays real-time data.
13:22:42 <ehird> :D
13:22:49 <AnMaster> ehird, btw that cmov related link. Have you actually read it all?
13:22:57 <ehird> ues
13:22:58 <AnMaster> "It really all boils down to: there's simply no real reason to use cmov.
13:22:58 <AnMaster> It's not horrible either, so go ahead and use it if you want to, but don't
13:22:58 <AnMaster> expect your code to really magically run any faster.
13:22:58 <AnMaster> Linus"
13:22:59 <ehird> t
13:23:01 <ehird> u
13:23:02 <ehird> y
13:23:03 <AnMaster> just pointing out that
13:23:11 <ehird> my y and u keyss are swapped
13:23:19 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but it demonstrates that having cmov versions of kernels is tupid
13:23:19 <ehird> stupid
13:23:33 <AnMaster> true
13:24:15 <ehird> WTF
13:24:18 <ehird> xedit has ispell
13:24:21 <ehird> and syntax highlighting
13:24:39 <ehird> AND AUTOINDENTATION
13:24:50 <ehird> and paren matching
13:25:01 <ehird> and ctags support
13:25:10 <ehird> yes that xedit
13:25:19 <AnMaster> ehird, bloated much?
13:25:28 <ehird> you know which xedit i'm talking about right?
13:25:43 <ehird> protip: control+middle button -> edit mode -> C/C++
13:25:49 <ehird> type in a simple program and see it get autoindented and highlighted
13:25:52 <ehird> i never even knew.
13:27:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I hardly remember xedit
13:27:18 <fizzie> FirePath (a VLIW-ish -- two ops per instruction, so maybe not so V -- all-SIMD architecture used in central-office DSL stuff) has a funky SIMD-conditional-execution thing.
13:27:23 <ehird> AnMaster: start it and you'll remeember
13:27:25 <ehird> *remember
13:28:12 <fizzie> http://everything2.com/title/FirePath has a bit of an example.
13:28:13 <AnMaster> ehird, unable to find it. And ubuntu doesn't list a package containing it
13:28:21 <ehird> um... it comes with x
13:28:27 <ehird> failing that, install xedit package?
13:28:33 <augur> hmm
13:28:38 <augur> MRI machine!
13:28:58 <AnMaster> apt-cache show xedit
13:28:58 <AnMaster> W: Unable to locate package xedit
13:28:59 <AnMaster> there
13:29:04 <ehird> use the dpkg search thing
13:29:08 <AnMaster> ehird, apt-file
13:29:10 <AnMaster> ?
13:29:15 <fizzie> (Sophie Wilson was a guest at the Altparty event; first time I heard about FirePath. It's sadly so very unknown, except to people who do the DSL stuff.)
13:29:25 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the case for the binary?
13:29:32 <ehird> xedit
13:29:35 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/xedit?
13:29:35 <AnMaster> right
13:29:46 <AnMaster> $ apt-file find /usr/bin/xedit
13:29:49 <AnMaster> $
13:30:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm afraid ubuntu doesn't have it (jaunty at least)
13:30:10 <fizzie> "/usr/bin/xedit x11-apps [not avr32] "
13:30:13 <fizzie> That's for Debian.
13:30:42 <fizzie> No files called "xedit" in Ubuntu-jaunty. :/
13:30:48 <ehird> queer
13:32:06 <fizzie> karmic's "x11-apps" has xedit, too; that's even queererer.
13:32:24 <AnMaster> x11-apps exists, contains no xedit?
13:32:26 <fizzie> Yes.
13:32:43 <AnMaster> even have it installed
13:32:44 <fizzie> http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/x11-apps → http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/x11-apps -- the only difference is the xedit line.
13:33:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, changelog entry about it?
13:33:09 <fizzie> x11-apps (7.4+2) unstable; urgency=low
13:33:09 <fizzie> * Add xedit 1.1.2, closes: #499085, #505064.
13:33:24 <fizzie> x11-apps (7.3+4) unstable; urgency=low
13:33:24 <fizzie> * Remove xedit from the package, it's unmaintained and broken
13:33:24 <fizzie> (closes: #321434).
13:33:24 <fizzie> * Remove xedit's conffiles on upgrade.
13:33:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, huh
13:33:57 <fizzie> You can probably check out those bug report numbers for more details.
13:33:58 * AnMaster is too lazy to check those bugs out
13:34:08 <AnMaster> argh you were half a second faster
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13:35:13 <ehird> hey, xedit is actually pretty good for editing C!
13:35:40 <ehird> the syntax highlighting is very complete, the colours pleasing, the automatic indentation perfect...
13:35:46 <ehird> and the keybindings good
13:36:11 <fizzie> Ubuntu bug #1: "Microsoft has a majority market share". Declined for Edgy, Feisty, Gutsy, Hardy, Intrepid, Karmic; Nominated for Lucid. Sure. (Though I guess it's been that way all the time.)
13:36:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, old
13:36:48 <ehird> I always feel stupid doing
13:36:50 <ehird> exit(...);
13:36:52 <ehird> break;
13:36:52 <AnMaster> you only just discovered it?
13:37:02 <AnMaster> ehird, why would you do that
13:37:05 <ehird> AnMaster: presumably he was commenting on the nomination
13:37:07 <ehird> also, switch ()
13:37:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but why the break after it. It isn't required afaik
13:37:33 <AnMaster> you can have fall through cases after all
13:37:57 <ehird> c warnings etc.
13:37:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so yeah you should feel stupid
13:38:14 <ehird> i think inconsistency is worse.
13:38:25 <AnMaster> ehird, hm gcc at least should be able to figure out exit() never returns, since it has __attribute__((noreturn)) iirc
13:42:43 <ehird> things i don't like: the part where xedit just crashed onm me
13:43:31 <AnMaster> mhm
13:43:38 <AnMaster> ehird, thats a feature
13:44:08 <AnMaster> (but a bug that it is active when INTERCAL syntax highlighting isn't used)
13:47:03 <ehird> heh
13:48:48 <ehird> FUCK
13:48:51 <ehird> it happened again
13:51:13 <AnMaster> ehird, install debugging symbols. Run under gdb
13:51:28 <ehird> meh
13:51:34 <ehird> prolly apple's x11 server
13:51:41 <AnMaster> ah
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14:00:54 <fizzie> "Message sending failed. Check E-Mail settings." Yay, what a colossally helpful error message.
14:01:23 <Deewiant> Better than "[c]ontact your system administrator."
14:03:00 <fizzie> Got it from the phone when trying to send outgoing email. I guess it's possible the operator has a different outgoing-SMTP server for us mobile users, it's just that the only one I can find from the support pages is the one on their generic "email settings" page.
14:07:22 <fizzie> Right, there's some sort of blog comment saying that it's "smtp.mobiili.net" for that. Great.
14:08:20 <fizzie> Not that it works any better with that.
14:09:32 <ehird> okay, this is just ridiculous
14:09:35 <ehird> xedit has a lisp evaluator
14:12:30 <fizzie> No, *this* is ridiculous: To send email, I have to go to mailbox settings and toggle the "Security" setting to "Off", because otherwise it tries to use SMTP-over-SSL, which is not supported by the operator's outgoing SMTP server. To read email, I have to go back to the settings and toggle "Security" to "On", because that's the only way to make it use IMAP-oer-SSL, which is required by the IMAP server.
14:13:12 <fizzie> Okay, I guess the Lisp evaluator is pretty ridiculous too. Still.
14:20:54 <fizzie> That's funny; the 25 second sound clip is 2208 bytes. Format's 8 kHz narrowband AMR; since even the lowest codec in that family is 4.75 kbit/s, and that file has about 700 bits/s, I'm forced to conclude that it's just using the "store some statistics of the background noise and not the signal itself" mode for the whole file.
14:21:14 <fizzie> Maybe the phone wasn't the best possible device for recording the suspicious-sounding power supply noise after all.
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14:37:25 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Better than "[c]ontact your system administrator." <-- why the [] around c?
14:37:38 <ehird> C
14:37:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean [cC]?
14:38:12 <ehird> english quotation style fail.
14:38:20 <AnMaster> oh not a regex
14:39:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, what power supply?
14:40:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, store statistics of signal noise? is there really a sound format with that?
14:40:22 <AnMaster> heh
14:40:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes.
14:40:49 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMR-NB -- it's called Comfort Noise Generation (CNG) there.
14:41:24 <fizzie> I think Speex has it too.
14:41:48 <fizzie> At least the VAD and DTX parts; maybe not the noise generation.
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14:42:47 <fizzie> "Discontinuous transmission is an addition to VAD/VBR operation, that allows to stop transmitting completely when the background noise is stationary. In a file, 5 bits are used for each missing frame (corresponding to 250 bit/s)." I guess Speex doesn't store noise statistics, at that. Well, AMR does, anyway.
14:44:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Indicates that it was originally capitalized but I changed it to lower case.
14:44:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah
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15:16:01 <augur> i think im going to go to a cafe and chill for the whole day
15:16:14 <augur> who thinks i should do this?
15:16:25 <fax> you
15:16:47 <augur> besides me!
15:20:06 * AnMaster doesn't care
15:21:07 <augur> :(
15:21:09 <augur> ok bye
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19:22:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: iwc :D
19:22:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed
19:22:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, but you weren't here hours ago when I read it
19:23:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, what the hell was it about now again?
19:23:18 <oerjan> kyros and bad choices
19:23:24 <AnMaster> aaah yes
19:23:27 <oerjan> two clearly linked concepts
19:23:36 <AnMaster> well... that's given
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19:44:30 <Oranjer> netsplit?!?
19:44:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
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19:45:05 <ais523> ##overflow is filling up massively fast
19:45:09 <ais523> it's not a netsplit
19:45:19 <Oranjer> oh
19:45:22 <ais523> I think the server went mad and decided to K-line /everyone/
19:45:27 <Oranjer> :O
19:45:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:45:30 <fizzie> -syn- Your reported IP [0.0.0.15] is banned: christel; Your access to freenode has been terminated. klines@freenode.net with questions. (2009/02/19 18.45)
19:45:31 -!- EgoBot has joined.
19:45:36 <fizzie> Yes, that was pretty strange.
19:45:43 -!- coppro has joined.
19:45:50 <fizzie> Incidentally, I don't think my IP is 0.0.0.15.
19:47:10 <ais523> oh, my IP was reported as 0.0.0.10
19:47:22 -!- dbc has joined.
19:47:29 <fizzie> "-Md- [GlobalNotice] sorry for the recent mass-kill issue! we are investigating what happened exactly" Heh. "Sorry that we killed you. Our bad."
19:47:29 <ais523> I'm not surprised that that IP is banned
19:47:30 -!- AnMaster has joined.
19:47:42 <ais523> but I am surprised that it misdetected the IP that badly
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19:54:20 <AnMaster> what
19:54:24 <AnMaster> the
19:54:26 <AnMaster> fucking
19:54:28 <AnMaster> crazy
19:54:28 <FireyFly> I was also 0.0.0.15
19:54:30 <AnMaster> hell
19:54:33 <Oranjer> what
19:54:36 <Oranjer> what happened
19:54:40 <ais523> AnMaster: freenode went mad and k-lined /everyone/
19:54:42 <ais523> including services
19:54:44 <AnMaster> -syn- Your reported IP [0.0.0.10] is banned: christel; Your access to freenode has been terminated. klines@freenode.net with questions. (2009/02/19 18.45)
19:54:45 <FireyFly> [20:46:50] <Md> [>> $*] [GlobalNotice] sorry for the recent mass-kill issue! we are investigating what happened exactly
19:54:48 <FireyFly> If you didn't notice
19:54:53 <AnMaster> reconnected on ipv6
19:55:09 <Oranjer> yay me! I love being immune to horrible, horrible bad luck
19:55:26 <AnMaster> FireyFly, .10 not .15
19:55:34 <FireyFly> [20:45:52] <fizzie> Incidentally, I don't think my IP is 0.0.0.15.
19:55:34 <FireyFly> [20:47:12] <ais523> oh, my IP was reported as 0.0.0.10
19:55:36 <Asztal> I was .10 too
19:55:39 <FireyFly> And yes, my was reported as .15
19:55:41 <AnMaster> FireyFly, I wasn't connected at that point I think
19:55:50 <fizzie> That's three .10s, two .15s.
19:55:55 <AnMaster> at least I never got the message
19:56:04 <FireyFly> BeholdMyGlory was .190
19:56:11 <AnMaster> Oranjer, on ipv6?
19:56:35 <AnMaster> I heard some on another network (chatspike) that mentioned being unaffected. They all used ipv6
19:56:49 <AnMaster> ah
19:56:52 <AnMaster> argh 43 seconds lag
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19:56:55 <AnMaster> I hate this
19:57:30 * oerjan was never k-lined, he thinks.
19:57:35 * oerjan feels special
19:58:17 <AnMaster> I see
19:58:19 <AnMaster> still joining channels it seems
19:59:23 <AnMaster> heh
19:59:49 -!- Oranjer has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:00:20 <AnMaster> I'm unable to join #freenode
20:00:27 -!- Oranjer has joined.
20:00:39 <AnMaster> get redirected to ##overflow
20:00:47 <Deewiant> I was 0.0.13.238
20:00:53 <oerjan> i am unable to _list_ #freenode
20:02:19 <oerjan> i don't think i am using ipv6 to connect to freenode
20:02:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm?
20:02:21 <AnMaster> what does that mean
20:02:27 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
20:02:32 <oerjan> 21:00 LIST Server load is temporarily too heavy. Please wait a while and try again.
20:02:51 <AnMaster> * Channel #freenode modes: +tncPLfJ
20:02:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: /list command?
20:02:57 <AnMaster> I can see
20:03:01 <AnMaster> hm
20:03:07 -!- Oranjer has joined.
20:03:15 <AnMaster> with /mode
20:03:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ooh, your number is very big.
20:03:29 <MizardX> « quit » {AnMaster} {n=AnMaster@90.130.2.147} Nick collision from syn.
20:05:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't think you remember what that does. And I'm too lazy to explain
20:05:12 <AnMaster> plus it won't work on freenode anyway
20:05:24 <AnMaster> MizardX, I'm well aware
20:06:25 <oerjan> what doesn't work on #freenode? i've used /list many times
20:06:33 <Deewiant> fizzie: And not 0.0.0 either!
20:07:31 <AnMaster> heh
20:07:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, you mean /names or /who
20:07:40 <AnMaster> not /list
20:07:45 <AnMaster> /list lists channels
20:08:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: i _was_ listing a channel. sheesh.
20:08:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, um
20:08:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, *list channel names*
20:08:16 <oerjan> it's what i use to see a channel topic
20:08:31 <oerjan> and number of users
20:08:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, can you list #gentoo or something like it?
20:08:50 <AnMaster> hm #freenode is +m now
20:08:58 <oerjan> 21:08 #gentoo 756 Gentoo Linux support | Can't speak? /join #gentoo-ops | Paste over 4 lines? http://dpaste.com | KDE4? xrl.us/otdxr + #gentoo-kde | e2fsprogs block fix: xrl.us/bea7ut | X Server 1.5? Bust KB/Mouse? xrl.us/bem6c4 1.6? http://xrl.us/bfqrjt | poppler blocks? xrl.us/bephtt | Gentoo 10.0 LiveDVD: xrl.us/gentoo10years | Profiles:
20:09:04 <oerjan> 2008.0->10.0 | irefox/ nvidia-drivers/ glibc/ nptl downgrade? sync and retry
20:09:48 <AnMaster> hm ok
20:09:54 <AnMaster> <+RichiH> -- PLEASE READ: we had a massive bug in one of our internal service bots which caused a massive, network-wide kill. that christel was mentioned is pure chance so please do not message her about it. we are working on fixing the problem. the bot has been disabled, for now --
20:10:05 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:10:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't think i have tried to use /list without a channel argument, if that's what you mean. i'm not _that_ stupid :D
20:11:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, hah
20:18:46 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
20:22:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:53:45 * pikhq too wasn't disconnected
20:54:07 <Oranjer> :O
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21:00:00 <Ilari> I think I figured out who was disconnected (which also explains why I wasn't).
21:00:40 <AnMaster> Ilari, oh?
21:01:21 <Oranjer> oh?
21:01:41 <Ilari> Pretty much anybody whose local part of ident starts with 0-9, a-f or A-F. Mine starts with 'u' (the real account name would start with 'I').
21:01:52 <Oranjer> :O
21:02:56 <oerjan> hm maybe it did things alphabetically and was stopped halfway through
21:03:23 <Oranjer> :O
21:03:29 * oerjan goes to see what that http://announce.freenode.net link was about
21:03:29 <Oranjer> I wonder who stopped it!
21:04:37 <oerjan> oh it's hexadecimals
21:04:46 <AnMaster> indeed
21:04:52 <Oranjer> :O
21:08:39 <Ilari> Some apparently think that it is not possible to have Unix login names that start with capital letter. Not true.
21:09:07 <AnMaster> Ilari, it is?
21:10:10 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
21:11:32 <Ilari> login[21013]: FAILED LOGIN (2) on '/dev/tty4' FOR 'UNKNOWN', Authentication failure login[21013]: pam_unix(login:session): session opened for user Ilari by LOGIN(uid=0)
21:12:08 <Ilari> The first is what one gets for trying to log in as user 'ilari'.
21:13:09 <AnMaster> Ilari, eh, well it is case sensitive
21:13:12 <AnMaster> what did you expect
21:13:15 <pikhq> It's certainly possible. It just makes logging in a pain on certain old terminals.
21:13:16 <AnMaster> oh
21:13:22 <pikhq> (which are still supported by termcap)
21:14:36 <Ilari> The reason why it wasn't possible in some systems is compatiblity feature of terminal emulation. But Linux TTY emulator doesn't have that feature (because it doesn't need it).
21:16:36 <Gregor> http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Vivaldi-Masterpieces-Amazon-Exclusive/dp/B002POQ2UQ . Go. Buy.
21:17:58 <Rugxulo> why?
21:19:40 <Rugxulo> ah, cheap, good point
21:21:36 <MizardX> Haha... What would Vivaldi think if he saw that?
21:23:24 <fizzie> Oh, so the IP is also about hexadecimals; so 'ais523' => 0xa => 10 => 0.0.0.10; 'fis' => 0xf => 15 => 0.0.0.15; 'deewiant' => 0xdee => 3566 => 0.0.13.238.
21:23:27 <fizzie> Funky buggery.
21:23:55 <Gregor> MizardX: Well, after taking a few years to explain the very most basics of all the technology employed, the value of a dollar, and the major changes in economic conditions from when he was alive 'til now, I'm thinkin' not much.
21:23:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: Heh, well spotted.
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21:24:44 <Rugxulo> he was (apparently) a priest, so I doubt he cared about money
21:24:45 <Deewiant> Ah, it was in the announcement.
21:24:50 <Rugxulo> died poor, too
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21:34:28 <Rugxulo> netsplit? :-P
21:34:35 <Rugxulo> AnMaster> unless things got a lot more bloated since 2007
21:34:37 <Rugxulo> yes they have
21:36:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: I read the announcement only after spotting that fact; though admittedly I spotted it only after hexadecimals were mentioned.
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21:39:30 <Oranjer> :O
21:39:37 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
21:44:35 <AnMaster> conclusion from this symbol: ⇔ dejavu has sucky hinting outside the more common symbols.
21:44:41 <AnMaster> dejavu sans mono that is
21:44:49 <AnMaster> it's a blur here
21:45:04 <AnMaster> somewhat better on the higher DPI screen of my laptop. But not much
21:45:35 -!- madbrain has joined.
21:45:41 <Gregor> AnMaster: Yeah, that's pretty awful.
21:45:43 <madbrain> Anyone interested in a system design compo?
21:45:49 <madbrain> http://s.engramstudio.com/src/sdc.txt <- tentative rules
21:45:54 <AnMaster> Gregor, you see what it is supposed to be?
21:46:00 <AnMaster> when copying it I assume
21:46:05 <Gregor> AnMaster: Yeah.
21:46:07 <AnMaster> it is the <=> thing
21:46:13 <Gregor> AnMaster: Liberation mono is a bit better.
21:46:31 <AnMaster> Gregor, sans-serif and monospaced? as many symbols?
21:46:43 <madbrain> I could make a version of the compo with faster fast page ram or EDO or SDRAM but that's more complicated and can wait
21:46:46 * pikhq may need to switch fonts -- that is rather annoying.
21:46:49 <Gregor> Yes, yes and yes. But by "a bit" I really meant "a bit", not "a lot".
21:47:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, to or from dejavu?
21:47:13 <AnMaster> Gregor, this is at 9 pt btw
21:47:20 <AnMaster> that I'm using it
21:47:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: From Deja Vu Sans Mono.
21:47:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could make a patch or something
21:47:48 <pikhq> The other Deja Vu fonts seem to have nice hinting.
21:47:48 <AnMaster> for the hinting
21:47:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, but you need mono space
21:47:58 <AnMaster> ...
21:48:01 <AnMaster> on irc
21:48:14 <AnMaster> just do /msg chanserv help (or /cs help on a properly set up client)
21:48:15 <pikhq> Not all that nice when it comes to things like <=> or => or ->...
21:48:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: I use a terminal for most things.
21:48:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, → looks good here
21:48:41 <pikhq> -> and => are hard to distinguish.
21:48:42 <AnMaster> well.
21:48:45 <AnMaster> could be better
21:48:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah
21:48:50 <pikhq> (the combination, not the two-character sequence)
21:48:56 <AnMaster> well of course
21:49:32 <AnMaster> Liberation mono? seems to be missing it *goes font hunting*
21:49:49 * AnMaster emerges
21:53:09 <Rugxulo> ... from the depths of the netherworld!
21:53:39 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, hah. No that is the gentoo command to install a package
21:54:56 <AnMaster> brb restarting client to make it see the new fonts...
21:55:27 <AnMaster> why couldn't it see the new ones on the fly
21:55:39 * AnMaster just reconnected to the bouncer
21:55:58 <AnMaster> argh
21:56:13 <AnMaster> Gregor, that liberation is smaller at 9 pt
21:56:18 <AnMaster> and ugly
21:56:23 <AnMaster> this is not sans serif
21:56:25 <AnMaster> this is serfi
21:56:28 <AnMaster> serif*
21:56:42 <Gregor> Liberation mono is sans serif.
21:56:53 <Gregor> Hrm. Actually, it seems to be inconsistent-serif :P
21:57:00 <AnMaster> Gregor, exactly
21:57:06 <AnMaster> that was unusable
21:57:28 <Gregor> You fontophiles are idiots.
21:57:36 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, yes I (barely) recognized that ... but at first it looked strange ;-)
21:57:47 <Gregor> I can understand the complaint about <=>, but this is just nonsense.
21:57:48 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> AnMaster, yes I (barely) recognized that ... but at first it looked strange ;-) <-- what?
21:57:59 * AnMaster doesn't have scrollback from before disconnecting
21:58:19 <Rugxulo> <AnMaster> Rugxulo, hah. No that is the gentoo command to install a package
21:58:31 <AnMaster> Gregor, I'm no fontofile. I prefer Ariel over Helvetia because the font spacing is proper in konqueror with it
21:58:37 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, ah that
21:58:56 <AnMaster> Gregor, I'm the person who is interested in proper colour handling
21:59:01 <AnMaster> with 16 bits per channel
21:59:02 <AnMaster> and such
21:59:18 <Gregor> Colorphiles.
21:59:20 <Rugxulo> <ehird> everything is slow on a p3
21:59:31 <Rugxulo> some P4s are allegedly slower than some P3s !!
21:59:51 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yes
22:00:32 <Rugxulo> so you still run a P3 box?
22:00:53 <Rugxulo> good :-)
22:01:13 <Gregor> <Rugxulo> some P4s are allegedly slower than some P3s !! ; It is true of all lines of Intels (at least since P1pro) that there are early models of the newer one that is slower than the latest models of the previous one.
22:01:24 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I have one
22:01:33 <AnMaster> 996 MHz
22:01:44 <Rugxulo> <ehird> six cores? next year?
22:01:48 <AnMaster> I swear it is faster than the 2 GHz P4 I used to have
22:01:49 <Rugxulo> I thought that was later this year? (guess not)
22:02:00 <Rugxulo> faster at what, Gentoo or something else?
22:02:24 <Gregor> AnMaster: That's just because the P4 is always running so hot that it has to run slow to avoid melting :P
22:02:39 <Rugxulo> seriously, that's probably true
22:02:55 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, compiling, running stuff, generic. And the p4 ran gentoo, but the p3 runs arch
22:02:56 * Rugxulo has a P4, hasn't used it too much lately except when router got scrambled temporarily
22:03:03 * pikhq should get a P4 for the sake of warming his coffee
22:03:14 <Rugxulo> compiling depends on the GCC used, etc.
22:03:21 <pikhq> Though, knowing P4s, that should more be "making his coffee"...
22:03:27 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, the p4 broke in early 2006 iirc
22:03:29 <AnMaster> or around there
22:03:41 <Rugxulo> what exactly broke on it? just stopped working?
22:03:42 <AnMaster> the p3 I got my hands on in mid 2007
22:04:09 <Rugxulo> the only really "bad" part about a P3 is how heavily ignored SSE1 is by programmers
22:04:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it refused to boot. Removing CPU showed some black parts on it
22:04:21 <AnMaster> as in
22:04:22 <AnMaster> charred
22:04:26 <Rugxulo> was it overclocked?
22:04:31 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it wasn't
22:04:54 <Rugxulo> P4 broke even classic software optimizations, so no wonder it was slow
22:05:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and heatsink and such was cleaned regularly.
22:05:18 <AnMaster> with compressed air
22:05:30 <AnMaster> every 2-3 months or so
22:05:43 <Rugxulo> <AnMaster> ehird, I estimate it is around 17 C indoors atm
22:05:52 <Rugxulo> you could maybe use another one to kill two birds with one stone ;-)
22:06:00 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, hah.
22:06:07 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I care about environment a bit
22:06:18 <AnMaster> so I try to go by bus instead of car and so on
22:06:48 <AnMaster> (no train around here that could do the job. well there are trains, but they don't go on useful times)
22:06:50 <Rugxulo> I know I know, P4 isn't optimal in any form
22:10:46 <Rugxulo> your laptop already has VMX?
22:10:59 <Rugxulo> oops, sorry, brain lapse, thought it said AVX
22:11:34 <Rugxulo> 2.26 Ghz, does it get good battery life?
22:12:49 <Rugxulo> <ehird> it'd be cool if you could buy actual intel graphics cards
22:12:54 <Rugxulo> not if you want to use latest Ubuntu :-P
22:13:24 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> oops, sorry, brain lapse, thought it said AVX
22:13:25 <AnMaster> no
22:13:30 <AnMaster> it is an intel core 2 duo
22:13:45 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, as for battery life. around 3 hours with wlan off
22:13:55 <AnMaster> 2.5 with wlan on at uni
22:13:59 <AnMaster> 2.75 with wlan on at home
22:14:17 <AnMaster> due to the storm of broadcasts from misconfigured laptops at university
22:14:24 <AnMaster> you know. mdns, upnp and so on
22:14:37 <AnMaster> zeroconf and what not
22:14:44 <Rugxulo> <ehird> um... it comes with x
22:14:51 <Rugxulo> then that's not the Xedit I was thinking of
22:15:01 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh you were talking about the flags I posted?
22:15:06 <AnMaster> some hours ago
22:15:20 <Rugxulo> probably ... yes, sorry, reading logs in lieu or real conversation ;-)
22:15:32 <Rugxulo> 3 hours w/ what size battery? 12 cell???
22:15:42 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, 6 cell iirc
22:15:50 <Rugxulo> that's still better than mine
22:16:00 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it is more like 2 hours and 55 minutes though
22:16:05 <AnMaster> but I don't dare run it to 0
22:16:23 <AnMaster> I stop at 5-10%
22:16:42 <Rugxulo> AMD64x2 1.7 Ghz w/ 6 cell only gets 2 hours MAX on power saver!! (e.g. both cores halved)
22:16:59 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, AMD CPUs use more power
22:17:00 <AnMaster> other than that they are better IMO
22:17:23 <Rugxulo> I knew AMD used more power, but still ... pretty crappy to not even be able to watch a 2 hour DVD, barely
22:17:31 <Rugxulo> and it still gets noticeably warm, bah
22:17:44 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh I never tried watching dvd on it
22:17:47 <Rugxulo> but it does at least match (or surpass) my P4 in performace
22:17:58 <Rugxulo> I don't either, just saying, kinda inconvenient
22:18:02 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I plan to replace the dvd drive in the ultrabay with an extra battery
22:18:19 <Rugxulo> you can get a 12-cell, probably helps more than replacing the DVD drive
22:18:27 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, no place in backpack for that
22:18:33 <Rugxulo> also probably my fault for using Vista (even 7 claims better battery life)
22:18:46 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I use linux. Of course.
22:18:54 <Rugxulo> though I remember antiX Mepis not being too great either (shut off without warning)
22:18:55 <AnMaster> can't use anything lacking a proper shell
22:19:08 <AnMaster> "antiX Mepis"?
22:19:10 <AnMaster> what is that
22:19:18 <Rugxulo> some "lightweight" Mepis derivative
22:19:36 <Rugxulo> I've tried a billion liveCDs, just never installed any
22:19:42 <Rugxulo> and not really *nix savvy
22:19:56 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, what is mepis?
22:20:00 <Rugxulo> Linux
22:20:00 <AnMaster> sounds familiar
22:20:06 <AnMaster> never tried mepis
22:20:10 * AnMaster uses ubuntu on laptop
22:20:16 <AnMaster> because things just work. Mostly
22:20:19 <Rugxulo> http://antix.mepis.org/index.php/Main_Page
22:20:26 <Rugxulo> haven't tried it lately, had a few issues I didn't like
22:20:37 <Rugxulo> but at least it had DOSBox by default, which I liked
22:20:54 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, where would I find software to run in it
22:20:55 <AnMaster> oh and
22:21:04 <AnMaster> it would be one or two clicks away in most distros
22:21:07 <Rugxulo> in DOSBox or Mepis?
22:21:13 <AnMaster> in dosbox
22:21:24 <Rugxulo> I have a (lame) DOS-related website
22:21:37 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, never saw the point of DOS
22:21:44 <AnMaster> horrible command interpreter
22:21:55 <Rugxulo> then use 4DOS or DJGPP Bash ;-)
22:22:04 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and no memory protection
22:22:08 <AnMaster> and no multi tasking
22:22:22 <Rugxulo> memory protection in DJGPP (and other DPMI stuff), etc.
22:22:25 <madbrain> djgpp + libraries helps with a couple of these
22:22:30 <AnMaster> hell even Apple's System 7 had multi tasking. (no memory protection though)
22:22:37 <Rugxulo> multitasking not free but exists (Win 3+, Desqview, DR-DOS 7)
22:22:38 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, no multi tasking
22:22:58 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yeah. Windows indeed. then go NT and drop DOS completely
22:22:59 <Rugxulo> use DOSEMU or DOSBox with a "real" OS in the background for multitasking
22:23:08 <madbrain> then run dos from win9x
22:23:17 <Rugxulo> one of these days I wish I would know enough to make my own DOS-oriented distro (based on uber-lean Linux, most likely)
22:23:18 <AnMaster> I fail to see the point of windows OR dos
22:23:20 <AnMaster> seriously
22:23:38 <Rugxulo> "run DOS from Win9x" ... but it ain't free and limits you in some ways
22:23:42 <Rugxulo> there is no universal solution
22:23:51 <AnMaster> I grew up on macs. Used windows for a short while (including XP). But then went completely Linu
22:23:52 <AnMaster> linux*
22:23:55 <AnMaster> various distros
22:23:58 <Rugxulo> NT didn't drop DOS completely, just much weaker support
22:24:05 <AnMaster> red hat 5.0 was the first linux distro I tried
22:24:08 <AnMaster> it was pretty bad
22:24:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: DOS is mostly useful by merit of being a very low-level OS that's at least vaguely usable.
22:24:17 <AnMaster> still compared to windows back then it was awesome
22:24:23 <Rugxulo> DOS has "no point" if you're not used to it
22:24:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, very very vaguely
22:24:36 <Rugxulo> just like C++ or Java have no point if you don't grok them
22:24:46 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I grok more C++ than I'd want to
22:24:51 <AnMaster> for my own sanity I mean
22:24:55 * AnMaster shudders at templates
22:24:59 <pikhq> I have come to grok C++ template programming.
22:25:02 * pikhq shudders
22:25:12 <madbrain> dunno, I like DOS stuff but it's rare to find some use where you couldn't do it in win32 instead
22:25:24 <pikhq> madbrain: Loadlin?
22:25:34 <madbrain> what is that?
22:25:37 <Rugxulo> that's because Win32 has had most everything from DOS ported to it (and Linux also), plus all new stuff only targets the main three (OS X, Win32, Linux)
22:25:41 <pikhq> A Linux bootloader.
22:25:50 <pikhq> And a DOS executable.
22:26:21 <AnMaster> shudder
22:26:28 <AnMaster> just use grub 1 or lilo or something
22:26:34 <AnMaster> (no, don't use grub 2)
22:26:34 <pikhq> It's nowhere near as crazy a hack as you'd think, too.
22:26:44 <Rugxulo> probably more useful when UMSDOS worked (2.4 kernels)
22:26:57 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, what was the point of UMDOS
22:27:03 * AnMaster forgot what UMDOS even was
22:27:07 <AnMaster> or UMSDOS
22:27:08 <Rugxulo> no need to repartition just to try Linux
22:27:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dual-boot Linux/Windows setups.
22:27:09 <AnMaster> or whatever
22:27:16 <Rugxulo> just dump some files atop your pre-existing FAT and voila
22:27:18 <pikhq> Very useful before XP.
22:27:21 <AnMaster> um like a disk image file?
22:27:26 <AnMaster> oh I see
22:27:28 <Rugxulo> no
22:27:42 <pikhq> No, the Linux filesystem was FAT.
22:27:46 <Rugxulo> mkdir linux ; cd linux ; unzip old_linux.zip ; linux.bat (runs)
22:28:14 <Rugxulo> it used FAT as host file system, no ext2 required
22:28:17 <pikhq> (... with extra metadata)
22:28:30 <Rugxulo> ---linux.--- (or similar, I forget)
22:28:39 <Rugxulo> this was before QEMU, BOCHS, etc. became popular
22:28:47 <AnMaster> even 2.4 had ext3 iirc?
22:28:55 <AnMaster> well not early ones
22:28:57 <AnMaster> but later on
22:29:23 * AnMaster prefers virtualbox over those
22:29:26 <Rugxulo> yeah, but you can't run DOS or Windows on ext3, and plus usually those took up the whole drive by default
22:29:42 <Rugxulo> I like VirtualBox too, it runs very well (when it works, which is most of the time, thankfully)
22:29:53 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, resize partitions? I'm pretty sure there was some tool for it
22:29:56 <AnMaster> even back then
22:30:05 <Rugxulo> assuming you actually wanted to resize
22:30:08 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, except for plan9
22:30:14 <AnMaster> then you need qemu
22:30:24 <Rugxulo> this was probably also before liveCDs became popular
22:30:59 <AnMaster> no I really fails to see the point of DOS or windows. DOS very much so
22:31:05 <AnMaster> completely pointless nowdays
22:31:30 <Deewiant> Kind of like esoteric programming
22:31:38 <pikhq> UMSDOS predates emulation at sane speed.
22:31:55 <Rugxulo> DOS is pointless if you don't know / like it
22:32:08 <madbrain> DOS had a point when window's gfx stuff was too slow
22:32:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not quite. If /// was TC or not was pretty interesting
22:32:32 <AnMaster> for example
22:32:56 <AnMaster> madbrain, I said "nowdays"
22:32:57 <Deewiant> But quite pointless.
22:33:18 <AnMaster> C64 I can understand people being nostalgic about
22:33:22 <Rugxulo> I like DOS mostly for my familiarity with it and its small size
22:33:24 <AnMaster> but DOS‽‽‽‽
22:33:32 <Deewiant> Why C64 but not DOS?
22:33:43 <madbrain> well, the c64 did have a flavor yeah
22:33:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to begin with: SID chipset
22:33:44 <Rugxulo> DOS has lots of good games, too
22:33:56 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, not what I'm talking about
22:33:57 <madbrain> I think SID is overrated though
22:34:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Why SID but not PC speaker?
22:34:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because SID actually sounded good?
22:34:19 <Deewiant> Or adlib, or Roland MT-32, or whatever
22:34:27 <AnMaster> plus I can beep the pc speaker inside linux
22:34:29 <Deewiant> PC speaker sounded good too
22:34:29 <AnMaster> if I want too
22:34:30 <AnMaster> easily
22:34:38 <Deewiant> And you can emulate a SID easily
22:34:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes
22:34:52 <AnMaster> which is why I don't have a c64. I use an emulator
22:34:56 <madbrain> well, on PC most games that sounded good had soundtracks mixed in real time
22:35:10 <AnMaster> madbrain, probably. What about it?
22:35:18 <AnMaster> and what was adlib?
22:35:29 <AnMaster> or Roland MT-32? (sounds familiar, unlike adlib)
22:35:35 <madbrain> adlib is actually complex and interesting hardware
22:35:49 <madbrain> roland mt-32 sounded a lot better but nobody had that
22:35:53 <madbrain> way too expensive
22:36:11 <AnMaster> madbrain, oh? how do they compare to stuff like my Soundblaster Live! 5.1?
22:36:13 <madbrain> plus most of the sounds are in ROM and you can't change them
22:36:14 <AnMaster> Love it's sound
22:36:40 <madbrain> The SB live is, like, a DSP
22:36:54 <madbrain> you give it something like 512 instructions to process sound
22:36:54 <AnMaster> madbrain, indeed. And it has good bass tones
22:37:05 <madbrain> Even the adlib has good bass
22:37:20 <Rugxulo> http://www.adlibtracker.net/
22:37:22 <AnMaster> madbrain, actually I just use it for it's hardware midi and good bass compared to on board sound
22:37:31 <Rugxulo> (somebody in here claimed to write some stuff with that, madbrain???)
22:37:36 * AnMaster is using a 71 MB soundfont
22:37:41 <madbrain> ruxglo: yeah
22:37:59 <Rugxulo> and (surprise!) AT2 needs DOS ;-)
22:38:09 <madbrain> ruxglo: http://8bitcollective.com/music/mad/Oskari+goes+to+Soundblasterland/
22:38:31 <AnMaster> madbrain, FM synth?
22:38:34 <madbrain> yeah, AdT2 is hard to run out of dos
22:38:38 <madbrain> anmaster: yeah
22:38:40 <AnMaster> what is that
22:38:45 <AnMaster> I'm used to high quality samples
22:38:57 <AnMaster> because I care about that sort of stuff
22:39:07 <madbrain> basically the adlib combines 2 waveforms to make a more complicated one
22:39:32 <AnMaster> madbrain, oh algorithmic synth is inferior to samples
22:39:36 <AnMaster> if that is what you mean
22:39:50 <madbrain> adlib is an algorithmic synth yes
22:40:11 <madbrain> mt-32 is also partially algorithmic, and partially (very small) samples
22:40:22 <AnMaster> madbrain, I have a roland electric piano next to me. Should tell you I expect some decent sound :P
22:40:30 <AnMaster> when playing
22:40:31 <madbrain> mt-32 has reverb though
22:41:27 <Rugxulo> madbrain, was that one of your songs?
22:41:32 <madbrain> yeah
22:41:34 <AnMaster> madbrain, you can emulate it in software on modern hardware
22:41:37 <AnMaster> easily
22:41:39 <madbrain> yaeh
22:41:39 <Rugxulo> sounds good ;-)
22:41:50 <madbrain> sound hardware is basically dead
22:41:51 <AnMaster> which is not exactly true of my sb live yet
22:42:16 <madbrain> anmaster: you could probably rip the samples out of it and reverse engineer its reverb :D
22:42:22 <AnMaster> madbrain, depends. my sb live does manage better low bass (25 Hz and below) than any on board stuff
22:42:31 <AnMaster> that I have seen
22:42:33 <AnMaster> and yes
22:42:40 <AnMaster> I have professional headphones.
22:42:46 <AnMaster> I can hear those tones
22:43:00 <AnMaster> the on board via just cuts off below 50 Hz
22:43:16 <madbrain> might be due to stupid DAC design on onboard
22:43:26 <AnMaster> whatever the laptop has cuts off below 45 Hz. But below 70 Hz it is very weak
22:43:34 <AnMaster> I think it is intel on board
22:43:43 <madbrain> aha yeah they do that on laptops sometimes
22:43:50 <madbrain> they put a highpass filter
22:43:54 <madbrain> dumbest idea ever
22:43:58 <AnMaster> ouch
22:44:02 <AnMaster> why?
22:44:06 <madbrain> no idea
22:44:09 <AnMaster> madbrain, and the via stuff is on desktop
22:44:10 <madbrain> might be battery related
22:44:37 <madbrain> maybe you could get unfiltered sound with some soldiering
22:44:49 <AnMaster> madbrain, it's less than half a year. No way
22:45:03 <AnMaster> madbrain, btw my headphones are http://www.beyerdynamic.de/en/broadcast-studio-video-production/products/headphonesheadsets/headphones.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BshowUID%5D=41&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BbackPID%5D=93&cHash=0fd1ee1ab1
22:45:31 <madbrain> nice
22:46:00 <madbrain> I don't have a budget for that sort of expensive stuff yeah
22:46:13 <AnMaster> luckily classical music doesn't suffer quite as much from that cut off as other music
22:46:18 <AnMaster> still it suffers
22:46:43 <AnMaster> and I love classical music. And also other art music from other periods. Like the romantic period
22:47:10 <madbrain> what you could do is use the SBlive then
22:47:21 <AnMaster> madbrain, yep. But not when traveling with my laptop
22:47:29 <AnMaster> of course those headphones are pretty bulky
22:47:47 <AnMaster> madbrain, only complaint I have is listed in that link:
22:47:49 <AnMaster> "Average pressure on ear acc. to IEC 60268-7 4.5 N"
22:48:06 <AnMaster> I think this is mechanical pressure
22:48:10 <AnMaster> from the headphones
22:48:36 <AnMaster> slightly too much to be completely comfortable for long time wear
22:51:40 <madbrain> but yeah many DOS games use software synthesis instead
22:52:31 <madbrain> which depends on the quality of the samples but is usually good
22:52:36 <AnMaster> madbrain, most of the time I prefer real recorded music. High quality stuff. CDs
22:52:49 <AnMaster> or CDs ripped to lossless
22:55:18 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, how much RAM does your laptop have?
22:55:45 <madbrain> dunno about CD audio... it sounds good but it tends to be a tad more disconnected from the game action
22:55:57 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, 4 GB. Why?
22:56:13 <Rugxulo> okay, that's what I thought I remembered
22:56:14 <AnMaster> was 2 GB initially
22:56:20 <AnMaster> added another 2
22:56:32 <AnMaster> madbrain, oh I didn't mean for game
22:56:44 <AnMaster> madbrain, I meant for sitting back and enjoying a symphony
22:57:26 <Rugxulo> I wonder what you use those 4 GB for ;-)
22:57:38 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, hm?
22:57:50 <AnMaster> well. why 2 when I can use 4?
22:58:11 <Rugxulo> eats more battery power
22:58:33 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, not much. Was like a 5 minute difference
22:59:07 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and I usually need no more than 2 hours in one run
22:59:30 * Rugxulo wishes all laptops lasted 12 hours ...
23:00:04 <AnMaster> same
23:00:34 <Rugxulo> P.S. speaking of music for DOS, http://www.oldskool.org/pc/MONOTONE
23:00:35 <Rugxulo> ;-)
23:01:02 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, what is a tracker exactly?
23:01:23 <AnMaster> also on my laptop if I turn off the speakers, the pcspeaker doesn't beep
23:01:24 <madbrain> anmaster: type of music program that originated on the amiga
23:01:31 * AnMaster guess it is emulated in the BIOS or such
23:01:49 <madbrain> anmaster: the amiga had 4 sample playing channels so its music software was based around that
23:02:09 <AnMaster> madbrain, couldn't play any wave tone?
23:02:12 <AnMaster> just samples?
23:02:13 <Rugxulo> tracker is usually used to describe .MOD editors, etc.
23:02:24 <madbrain> wave and samples are the same thing
23:02:26 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, hah. haven't seen a *.mod in ages
23:02:40 <Rugxulo> well, this isn't .MOD either, it's a custom format ;-)
23:02:41 <AnMaster> madbrain, samples to me means samples like in a soundfont
23:02:44 <AnMaster> for midi
23:02:55 <Deewiant> About half of the music I listen to is *.{mod,s3m,it,xm}
23:03:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seen all of those except it
23:03:14 <AnMaster> what is the difference between them
23:03:16 <Rugxulo> .it = Impulse Tracker
23:03:18 <Deewiant> Well, for the past two years or so it's been about all of the music I listen to
23:03:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Different trackers' formats.
23:04:01 <Rugxulo> .mod is oldest (with a few extensions), .s3m is from Scream Tracker 3 (circa 1994), .xm is from Fast Tracker (mid 90s), .it is from Impulse Tracker (late '90s)
23:04:03 <AnMaster> mhm
23:04:05 <Deewiant> ProTracker, Scream Tracker 3, Impulse Tracker and FastTracker 2.
23:04:05 <madbrain> anmaster: basically each one is a sucessive improvement over the previous one (mod->s3m->xm->it)
23:04:23 <AnMaster> I see
23:04:28 <Rugxulo> except Impulse Tracker is specifically meant as a better Scream Tracker
23:04:33 <Rugxulo> same exact interface
23:04:35 <AnMaster> whatever is wrong with *.ogg and *.flac these days :P
23:05:05 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, I think your problem is that you don't realize that the world existed before Core 2, 4 GB RAM, 64-bit, etc. ;-)
23:05:10 <madbrain> you can't rip the samples out of them or snoop how the dude composed music :D
23:05:20 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I certainly do. But I grew up with mac
23:05:28 <AnMaster> I can go on being nostalgic about old mac games
23:05:30 <AnMaster> if you want
23:05:48 <Deewiant> Wait, old Macs had games? ;-)
23:05:48 <AnMaster> except, I uh don't see the point. I'm nostalgic like twice a year
23:05:53 <Rugxulo> but you keep saying, "What's the point?" as if it was always so cut and dry
23:05:53 <AnMaster> and find my old ibook
23:05:56 <AnMaster> with dead mattery
23:06:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yes. Because these sound awful compared even to macs from the same year
23:06:25 <Deewiant> I'm nostalgic at least once per day
23:06:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, age?
23:06:33 <Rugxulo> beauty is in the eye of the beholder
23:06:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 21.
23:07:10 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, okay I do get nostalgic over Myst. Especially with the sound of the CD drive of a performa 5600 in the background (or was it 5200? I forgot...)
23:07:19 <Rugxulo> a twinkee is inferior to a real cake but still a bit tasty nevertheless
23:07:36 <AnMaster> `google define:twinkee
23:07:39 <AnMaster> hm?
23:07:43 <AnMaster> `define twinkee
23:07:43 <Deewiant> twinkie*
23:07:47 <AnMaster> `define twinke
23:07:51 <AnMaster> `echo test
23:07:54 <HackEgo> No output.
23:07:57 <AnMaster> uh
23:07:58 <AnMaster> what
23:08:00 <HackEgo> * A Twinkie is a "Golden Sponge Cake with Creamy Filling" popular in the United States and elsewhere in North America. ... \ [14]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkee \
23:08:00 <AnMaster> `ls
23:08:04 <AnMaster> okay
23:08:04 <Rugxulo> there you go
23:08:05 <HackEgo> test
23:08:06 <HackEgo> No output.
23:08:07 <AnMaster> Gregor, I think it is slow
23:08:13 <HackEgo> bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.658
23:08:38 <AnMaster> `ls bin
23:08:46 <AnMaster> ...
23:08:49 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
23:08:52 <AnMaster> very slow indeed
23:11:07 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, also I could get faux nostalgic about old unix
23:11:23 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh ever played Myst?
23:11:43 * AnMaster wonders if you can emulate a pre-OS X PPC mac on linux easily
23:11:52 <AnMaster> an eary ppc would do
23:12:41 <Rugxulo> yes I have Myst on both PC and Atari JagCD
23:12:52 <Rugxulo> came close to beating it in 2005 but never did finish (haven't played it much since)
23:13:15 <Rugxulo> it's not faux nostalgia, DOS lives (barely), just some of us find it interesting
23:13:20 * Gregor kills a runaway process on codu.
23:13:21 <Gregor> `ls
23:13:22 <HackEgo> bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.914
23:13:24 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, finished it
23:13:24 <Gregor> Heh :P
23:13:29 <AnMaster> without walkthroughs
23:13:32 <AnMaster> and on mac
23:13:43 <Rugxulo> I got stuck at that maze underground, couldn't figure out what to do
23:13:51 <Rugxulo> not afraid of cheating, just too lazy to bother I guess
23:14:09 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh in the sound world?
23:14:10 <Rugxulo> I hear some of the sequels are good, though, but never tried 'em
23:14:20 <Rugxulo> no, in the tunnel car thingy
23:14:30 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, with faux nostalgia I meant "never used those, so can't be nostalgic about them, but still is"
23:14:37 <Rugxulo> it's kinda an underwhelming game in some ways (very isolating)
23:14:41 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that was in the soundworld
23:14:46 <AnMaster> sound world*
23:14:50 <Rugxulo> I probably missed something obvious
23:14:57 <Rugxulo> I should probably go ahead and cheat and finish it one of these days
23:14:58 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, something rather non-obvious
23:15:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you got sounds indicating direction you should go
23:15:14 <AnMaster> basically
23:15:28 <Rugxulo> PPC? PearPC? (dunno really)
23:15:46 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, isn't it OS X only?
23:15:49 <Rugxulo> I still need to finish Gabriel Knight 1 one of these days
23:15:52 <Rugxulo> no idea
23:16:01 <Rugxulo> but QEMU supports other arches, doesn't it??
23:16:46 <AnMaster> argh indeed
23:16:55 <Warrigal> Ruĝulo?
23:16:59 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yeah but not Mac as such
23:17:13 <AnMaster> wrong hardware emulated iirc
23:17:14 <Rugxulo> Warrigal: yes?
23:17:21 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, ever tried Ardi's Executor?
23:17:27 <Rugxulo> (but that was mostly System 6, I think)
23:17:27 <Warrigal> Just wondering if that's also your name.
23:17:29 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, never heard of it
23:17:35 <Rugxulo> my nickname, yes
23:17:51 <Rugxulo> http://github.com/ctm/executor
23:18:05 <Rugxulo> ran on DOS at one point (circa 1996) using DJGPP
23:18:16 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, need to run PPC binaries
23:18:17 <Rugxulo> now it's been ported to Linux
23:18:20 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, for those old games
23:18:32 <Rugxulo> ah, well this is 68000 (only I think??)
23:18:38 <AnMaster> yeah
23:18:40 <AnMaster> that's the issue
23:18:46 <AnMaster> still I have that old ibook
23:18:52 <AnMaster> whenever I get nostalgic
23:19:18 <Rugxulo> bah, no PPC, sorry
23:19:28 <Rugxulo> easy to forget all their billions of transitions
23:19:43 <AnMaster> apple? yeah
23:20:06 <AnMaster> oh and PearPC seems dead
23:20:10 <AnMaster> last news item in 2005
23:21:14 <Rugxulo> I'm sure someone has done it, just dunno who
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23:29:16 <Rugxulo> noticeably different keyboard on this laptop than P4 (harder to play Llamatron, barely)
23:30:04 <Deewiant> Llamatron :-D
23:30:07 <Rugxulo> long story short, I'm 30 (not that old), but I do remember DOS + Win 3.1
23:30:09 <Deewiant> That game was awesome
23:30:27 <Rugxulo> and I still use old computers, hence I need a "lite" OS more than "lightweight Linux" (128 MB??? o_O)
23:30:36 <Rugxulo> s/old/ancient/
23:31:01 <Rugxulo> works well in DOSBox :-)
23:31:06 <fizzie> QEMU does some Macintosh hardware bits too. No idea how complete it is; personally I've just played around with PearPC.
23:33:23 <Rugxulo> Deewiant: http://www.llamasoft.co.uk
23:33:42 <Deewiant> Yeah, I know of the new ones
23:34:00 <Rugxulo> no, I mean old Llamasoft is freely available there
23:34:56 <Deewiant> Ah, so it is.
23:34:58 <fizzie> There was that one iPhone-runs-System 7-with-QEMU newspost -- http://mobile.osnews.com/printer.php?news_id=21045 though the actual site seems less alive -- that might've been with the m68k emulator, who knows -- qemu site hardware target list has "G3 Beige PowerMac (PowerPC processor)".
23:35:45 <AnMaster> Llamatron?
23:35:50 <AnMaster> what the hell is that
23:35:56 <Rugxulo> game
23:36:01 <Rugxulo> weird clone of Robotron
23:36:09 <AnMaster> <fizzie> QEMU does some Macintosh hardware bits too. No idea how complete it is; personally I've just played around with PearPC. <-- which doesn't do pre-OS X
23:36:18 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> weird clone of Robotron <-- never heard of that
23:36:31 <Rugxulo> Robotron is from like 1980 or so
23:36:52 <Rugxulo> sorry, 1982
23:36:53 <Rugxulo> http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9347
23:36:59 <Rugxulo> it's on Midway Arcade Treasures 1
23:38:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, there's SheepShaver; that one does pre-OS X only ("7.5.2 thru 9.0.4"), don't know how well.
23:38:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, could work
23:38:58 <Rugxulo> what's the point?? ;-))
23:39:20 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yeah. good point. Since I have that old ibook when I want this
23:39:39 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, still the OS is at least better than DOS
23:39:49 <AnMaster> so it is less pointless
23:39:58 <Rugxulo> if you say so ;-)
23:40:02 <Rugxulo> DOS has more apps :-P
23:40:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, mac apps were better.
23:40:27 <Rugxulo> nope ;-)
23:40:31 <AnMaster> and charm
23:41:20 <fizzie> SheepShaver's supposed to run pretty well on actual PowerPC systems, if you want just virtualizationary stuff; I gather the PowerPC core emulation isn't all that hot, though certainly with modern processors it might not be such a big issue.
23:41:38 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llamatron <-- ugh arcade style
23:41:58 * AnMaster always preferred games where you could win. Not more and more levels all the time
23:43:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, I want sound and ability to run OS 8 or OS 9 to run some old games. Mostly turn based. Though one "real" time
23:43:27 <Rugxulo> arcade style is unavoidable when cloning an arcade game ;-)
23:43:39 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, which is why you shouldn't
23:43:42 <Rugxulo> what, you don't like trying to beat your high score??
23:43:47 <Deewiant> It did have an ending, didn't it?
23:43:50 <fizzie> I remember being envious of a Mac-using friend, because he had that funky paper airplane game. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_PRO)
23:43:52 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I prefer RPGs
23:43:54 <AnMaster> with lots of text
23:43:55 <Rugxulo> dunno, never beat it ;-)
23:44:10 <coppro> what about Nanosaur :D
23:44:19 <AnMaster> coppro, oh I think my mac had that
23:44:23 <AnMaster> I sucked at it
23:45:20 <coppro> I miss those types of games.
23:45:23 <fizzie> (Well, Glider 4 or something, but I don't think that has a Wikipedia article.)
23:45:47 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:45:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, screenshot?
23:46:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://www.lauppert.ws/screen1/mac/glider.png
23:46:39 <fizzie> The games are nowadays free, it seems.
23:46:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was the objective?
23:47:31 <Deewiant> Hey, I remember playing something like that.
23:47:52 <fizzie> To fly the paper airplane through the house, avoiding all obstacles. (IIRC, the only controls you had were "left" and "right" to toggle the direction; heat vents made the airplane go up, in other places it just glided slowly downwards.)
23:48:13 <Deewiant> Possibly a ripoff of some kind, since I think it was on a PC. It /was/ a paper aeroplane.
23:48:17 <fizzie> Those things on the floor in that screenshot are heat vents, I think.
23:48:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's a Windows port of Glider 4.0.
23:48:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://homepage.mac.com/calhoun/Downloads.html
23:48:35 <fizzie> If you feel like checking.
23:48:51 <fizzie> (The "PRO" version probably has colors and everything.)
23:48:55 <Deewiant> I wonder what the time stamp on that thing is.
23:49:13 <Deewiant> The Wikipedia article doesn't even mention a Windows version.
23:49:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Right, because the Wikipedia article is for the PRO version.
23:49:43 <Deewiant> Bah.
23:51:52 <fizzie> Oh, and the eponymous glider gets electrocuted if you fly it directly in front of a electricity wall socket thing. That's very realistic; I get shocked every time I walk past a wall outlet too.
23:51:58 <AnMaster> why is a screenshot so much worse than a picture of a car when it comes to license?
23:52:02 <AnMaster> on wikipedia I mean
23:53:31 <Rugxulo> dunno, useless pedantry
23:53:42 <Rugxulo> fizzie, I hope not ;-)
23:54:35 <oerjan> fizzie: lousy grounding i bet
2009-11-02
00:04:52 <coppro> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm <-- look at the google ads O_o
00:05:28 <Rugxulo> what about it?
00:06:06 <Rugxulo> "Biological Data Analysis" ... "Microbial Insights" ... "$89 Home DNA Test"
00:06:11 <Rugxulo> is that what you saw too? (doubt it)
00:06:57 <coppro> no, but I saw similar ones
00:07:13 <coppro> the best one I got was "miRNA array analysis"
00:07:21 <coppro> seems a bit esoteric to be on google ads
00:07:33 <coppro> *microarray
00:08:34 <Rugxulo> esoteric? Google? nah ;-)
00:11:25 -!- dbc has quit (Client Quit).
00:14:49 * coppro doesn't want to do homework :(
00:21:06 <Rugxulo> for what?
00:22:37 <coppro> Biology
00:22:45 <coppro> and English
00:22:56 <coppro> which together account for 100% of my school subjects :/
00:22:57 <Rugxulo> break it up into bite-sized pieces, perhaps?
00:23:04 <coppro> it's not hard
00:23:05 <coppro> just tedious
00:23:19 <Rugxulo> well that's a given ;-)
00:23:22 <coppro> and creative, too
00:23:26 <coppro> I don't like creative
00:24:27 <Rugxulo> but esoteric languages are creative
00:24:55 <coppro> but in a different way
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00:25:05 <Warrigal> I'm kind of glad I'm taking only math classes.
00:25:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:25:14 <coppro> This is the school version of creative - e.g. "stuff that isn't what you normally do"
00:25:25 <coppro> Warrigal: I can't wait until Uni :)
00:25:35 <Warrigal> I wanted to take five-ish math classes next semester, but the head of the math department came and told me I shouldn't do that.
00:25:43 <oerjan> biology isn't creative unless you engineer new lifeforms
00:26:02 <Rugxulo> Warrigal, you'd probably burn out with 5+
00:26:33 <oerjan> i'm _still_ waiting for oklopol's great burnout this year
00:26:59 <Warrigal> I burned out this semester with a single non-math class. :-P
00:28:09 <Warrigal> Well, actually a double non-math class.
00:28:39 <coppro> I spend half my day working at a biotech firm, it's awesome :)
00:30:25 <coppro> okay, done the noncreative part of part 1
00:30:34 <Warrigal> coppro: so what are you currenly doing for education?
00:30:42 <coppro> High school
00:30:47 <coppro> last year
00:31:01 <Warrigal> Are you United States?
00:31:05 <coppro> No
00:31:07 <coppro> Canada
00:31:22 <Rugxulo> he said "uni", kinda a giveaway ;-)
00:31:39 <Warrigal> Hmm. How does the education system go there?
00:31:45 <coppro> 12 years
00:31:55 <Rugxulo> huh, thought it was 13
00:31:56 <coppro> well, and kindergarten, but that doesn't count
00:32:25 <coppro> No province has had 13 for several years
00:32:34 <Rugxulo> good ;-)
00:32:48 <coppro> Well, except Quebec has the weird CEGEP thing
00:33:02 * Rugxulo shakes fist
00:33:08 <coppro> Quebec has 11 years + 2 years CEGEP
00:33:26 <Warrigal> What part of that is high school?
00:33:35 <coppro> 2 years I think
00:33:39 <coppro> It's 3 here
00:34:07 <coppro> oh no, Quebec just has secondary schools, which are 5 years
00:34:21 <coppro> no distinction between junior high/middle school and high school
00:34:51 <Warrigal> I was kind of an expecting an answer along the lines of "one year of kindergarten, eight years of primary school, four years of secondary school (high school), then college/university".
00:35:00 <coppro> ok, fine
00:35:18 <coppro> one year kindergarten, 6 years elementary, 3 years junior high, 3 years high school in Alberta
00:35:23 <coppro> two years preschool optional
00:35:29 <coppro> (before kindergarten)
00:37:03 <Warrigal> So pretty much like in the US but with one year of high school removed and added to elementary.
00:37:18 <coppro> Think so, not 100% sure
00:37:27 <Rugxulo> even in the U.S. in some places, 9th is in middle
00:37:29 <coppro> (given that I don't know your system)
00:37:51 <coppro> All I know is that I hope I get accepted to UW
00:37:59 <coppro> (Waterloo)
00:38:49 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:39:15 <Warrigal> Hmm, I guess the two systems are actually consistent, then.
00:39:52 -!- coppro has joined.
00:40:26 <madbrain> UW? Is that in ontario?
00:41:05 <coppro> Yeah
00:41:17 <coppro> Best math school in the country, and high up there worldwide
00:42:59 <coppro> Only problem is, my transcript doesn't look as good as it should because of stupid options I was forced to take :(
00:43:24 <Rugxulo> transcripts are dishonest anyways (well, mine is)
00:44:03 <Warrigal> I seem to often get the feeling that the school I'm at... kinda sucks.
00:44:15 <coppro> What school?
00:44:21 <Warrigal> Grand Valley State University.
00:44:27 <coppro> Never heard of it :/
00:44:39 <coppro> but then again, I haven't heard of most US schools except the big ones
00:44:56 <Warrigal> It is kind of big.
00:45:01 <Rugxulo> I've never heard of it either, doesn't mean it's bad
00:45:17 <Warrigal> The enrollment is 23,000.
00:45:20 <Rugxulo> although that feeling that one's school sucks is fairly common ;-)
00:45:30 <Warrigal> Indeed.
00:46:36 <Warrigal> What I used to think is that the Internet could teach me in minutes what school teaches in weeks.
00:47:43 * coppro knows this isn't tru
00:47:45 <coppro> *true
00:47:55 <Warrigal> Now it seems that while that's more or less true for certain types of declarative knowledge, for procedural knowledge, it's a different story.
00:48:08 <coppro> Yeah
00:48:35 <Rugxulo> and yet school isn't exactly a "bargain", either
00:48:46 <coppro> nope :(
00:48:54 <Warrigal> Still, though, I feel like my greatest advances in procedural knowledge have come about online.
00:49:37 <coppro> The problem is that the internet, while it has most of the knowledge you may deign to acquire, it generally sucks at explaining it
00:49:42 <Warrigal> I've had two "what the hell am I doing" moments online, and none in school.
00:49:52 <coppro> and you're left to figure out which order to learn things on your own
00:50:07 -!- dbc has joined.
00:50:13 <Warrigal> As in "hmm, well, I suppose that if you kind of visualize it like this, you can kind of see that--what the hell am I doing? There's a formula for this"!
00:50:23 <coppro> :D
00:51:05 <madbrain> dunno.. i think there isn't too much good music theory on the net
00:51:13 <Warrigal> One was when I was trying to figure out a parameter that would make two functions tangent. I took the arctangent of the derivative.
00:51:17 <coppro> madbrain: I said "most", not all
00:51:19 <coppro> The #1 issue with school that helps give that feeling is a lot of knowledge that should be procedural (e.g. math) is treated like it isn't.
00:51:30 <coppro> especially at low levels
00:51:36 <Warrigal> The other was when solving the Diophantine equation x^2 - y^2 = 1817; I didn't realize that the left side could be factored.
00:51:43 <Rugxulo> school = rote memorization and busywork, that's all
00:52:11 <coppro> Rugxulo: see, that's the problem. When it /isn't/ that, it's exciting to learn
00:52:21 <Rugxulo> music theory = only good in as much as you are willing to discard it
00:52:43 <madbrain> rux: ah, but many jobs are rote memorization and busy work
00:52:55 <coppro> e.g. have you ever seen a teacher show the derivation of the quadratic formula?
00:53:10 <Warrigal> I've seen a teacher show the derivation of the quadratic formula.
00:53:25 <Warrigal> I was perplexed by the fact that the other students called the derivation "freaky".
00:53:31 <madbrain> like, I love being creative and all, but now I have to get someone to pay for it and it sounds hard
00:53:40 <coppro> Warrigal: lol
00:53:46 <coppro> At least they got shown how it works
00:53:49 <madbrain> rux: dunno what to think about music theory...
00:53:54 <Warrigal> It's freaky that when you do this, you get the same answer as when people did it hundreds of years ago? What the *hell* did you expect?
00:54:01 <coppro> It's easier to remember things you understand
00:54:06 <Rugxulo> Charlie Parker: "Learn as much as you can, then forget all that s**t"
00:54:15 <coppro> this is THE problem with math education in North America
00:54:44 <Rugxulo> yes, but they don't have time to let you understand, only time to make you memorize stuff and do lots of busywork
00:54:51 <coppro> Wrong
00:54:57 <Rugxulo> gotta cram in so much curriculum
00:55:06 <coppro> They could teach things far quicker if they showed you how to understand
00:55:07 <Rugxulo> must give so many tests, etc.
00:55:14 <pikhq> They have plenty of time.
00:55:18 <Rugxulo> well, then they suck too bad ;-)
00:55:21 <pikhq> A full 12 years.
00:55:26 <Rugxulo> they waste it
00:55:31 <coppro> yes
00:55:39 <coppro> It's a systemic problem
00:55:40 <Rugxulo> you think Windows 7 really needs 16 GB of HD space?? nope, but they waste it
00:55:42 <madbrain> well, its not the smart mathematicians who teach¸
00:55:43 <Rugxulo> same thing ;-))
00:55:53 <pikhq> I don't see why it's unreasonable to get a basic understanding of mathematics in that time.
00:56:05 <coppro> Another great example is fractions
00:56:06 <madbrain> the ones who teach are the ones who know how to deal with kids
00:56:27 <pikhq> Of course, people appear to think that mathematics is merely calculation. So...
00:56:32 <pikhq> madbrain: ... Ah, no.
00:56:45 <Rugxulo> no, the ones who teach are whoever they can get
00:56:56 <madbrain> rux: ah, yeah
00:56:57 <madbrain> right
00:56:58 <Rugxulo> and you don't need lots of experience either
00:57:06 <coppro> pikhq: A symptom of the flawed education
00:57:08 <pikhq> The ones who teach are the ones who know how not to send people to the guillotine.
00:57:14 <pikhq> coppro: Absolutely.
00:57:14 <Rugxulo> my 4th grade teacher's parents were younger than mine (at the time!)
00:57:52 <Rugxulo> hilariously ironic
00:57:57 <Rugxulo> to me at least
00:58:14 <Rugxulo> (disclosure: my own mother is a math teacher)
00:58:25 <Rugxulo> (not that I ever learned jack from her)
00:58:38 * Rugxulo is not a math whiz
00:59:10 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yet, you program.
00:59:17 <madbrain> dunno, I learned some math (mostly having to do with programming!)... I never figured out how to do integrals though
00:59:21 <Rugxulo> BTW, I think the guillotine was outlawed in 1982 or so in France, so... ;-)
00:59:26 <pikhq> Which... *is mathematics*.
00:59:29 <Warrigal> I wonder why I remembered the number 1817...
00:59:42 <Rugxulo> 18, 17, 16, 15 ...
01:00:20 <madbrain> still better than the gas chamber
01:00:42 <Warrigal> If I had to choose a method of execution for myself, I'm sure I would choose nitrogen asphyxiation.
01:00:46 <coppro> 1812 was the year of the War of 1812!
01:00:57 <Warrigal> I can't imagine how any method of execution could be more humane.
01:01:09 <Rugxulo> natural causes? ;-)
01:01:47 <Rugxulo> dying in your sleep?
01:01:57 <Warrigal> I guess execution by natural causes is a pretty humane way to do it. :-)
01:02:24 <Warrigal> The thing about nitrogen asphyxiation is it works like this:
01:02:30 <Warrigal> You put on a mask. You get dizzy. You die.
01:02:42 * pikhq votes execution by bomb -- sitting right next to the one who gave out the death sentence.
01:03:29 <Warrigal> Execution by suicide-brought-on-by-remorse-brought-on-by-murder.
01:04:57 <Rugxulo> death by chocolate ;-)
01:07:21 <Rugxulo> (what, never heard of that dish?)
01:07:42 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_Chocolate
01:11:57 -!- ehird has joined.
01:12:04 <ehird> "Finally, every time Psystar turns on any of the Psystar computers running Mac OS X, which it does before shipping each computer, Psystar necessarily makes a separate modified copy of Mac OS X in Random Access Memory, or RAM. This is the third unlawful copy." —Apple
01:12:08 <ehird> Apparently I'm a pirate.
01:13:07 <Rugxulo> uh ... yeah sure
01:13:17 <Rugxulo> sorry, but counting like that is a little bit of a stretch
01:13:36 <ehird> Clearly I was quoting it and calling myself a pirate because I thought it was sane and reasonable.
01:13:40 * Rugxulo hears that latest Ubuntu runs on Intel Macs
01:13:46 <ehird> I wasn't mocking it or anything, nosiree, thanks for the apology.
01:13:53 <ehird> linux has run on intel macs since about 3 seconds after they came out
01:13:55 <Rugxulo> I'm just agreeing, it's a bit isnane
01:13:59 <ehird> *more like a few monthhts
01:13:59 <Rugxulo> really?
01:14:01 <ehird> *months
01:14:02 <ehird> yes.
01:14:04 <ehird> so has windows
01:14:11 <Rugxulo> Windows doesn't count
01:14:11 <ehird> well, ok, windows took a bit longer i think
01:14:12 <ehird> but whatever
01:14:18 <ehird> Rugxulo: without boot camp.
01:14:24 <ehird> boot camp just partitions and gives you a driver CD
01:14:42 <ehird> there was an EFI upgrade (like BIOS) that let you boot BIOS things from it, you see
01:14:44 <ehird> when boot camp came out
01:14:46 <ehird> but before that
01:14:50 <ehird> people just hacked up their own shit
01:14:52 <Rugxulo> ah
01:14:53 <ehird> so you could run windows on it
01:15:00 <ehird> linux happened earlier because there is a linux bootloader for efi
01:15:01 <ehird> elilo
01:15:06 <ehird> nobody uses it now though
01:15:39 <Rugxulo> latest Ubuntu has issues with Intel gfx, I hear
01:16:08 <Rugxulo> (on a different note)
01:16:22 <ehird> they're changing everything around. after this intel graphics should be good
01:16:23 <ehird> (in X11)
01:16:27 <ehird> well, Xorg
01:16:37 <ehird> ubuntu by itself does very little apart from ship unstable things that barely work
01:16:50 <Rugxulo> based upon Debian "testing", from what I've read
01:17:08 <ehird> yes, sid.
01:17:13 <ehird> anyway, you've been able to install rEFIt (EFI bootloader selector thingy, just point-and-click in OS X to install), pop in an ubuntu CD in an intel mac and install it for years now
01:17:28 <Rugxulo> I never hear anybody doing that, though
01:17:43 <ehird> Tons of people do it. I've done it several times and used Ubuntu for a few weeks recently.
01:17:58 <ehird> Case in point: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=328
01:18:05 <ehird> A whole forum of Mac Ubuntu users.
01:18:10 <ehird> Active.
01:18:30 <Rugxulo> PPC too??
01:19:31 <Rugxulo> "Please join the irc release party in ...", heh
01:19:45 <ehird> PPC is a "community-supported port"
01:19:49 <ehird> Translation: "barely works"
01:21:05 <ehird> I won't be using this machine "sometime soon" anyway; hopefully I'll forget all the crap I needed to get it working.
01:21:06 <Rugxulo> translation: "soon to be obsoleted, even by us!"
01:21:26 <ehird> It's been community-supported (== we won't support it) since 2006, iirc.
01:21:40 <ehird> The population of Mac users that use Ubuntu is small enough; PPC Ubuntu?
01:21:49 <Rugxulo> I hate that about Macs, they brag how great they are then drop them like stones once they are *barely* obsolete
01:22:05 <ehird> PPC was obsolete before 2005
01:22:10 <bsmntbombdood> i hate everything
01:22:24 <ehird> G5 was fast, sure... but they still sucked. Especially the heat output.
01:22:32 <Rugxulo> P4 anyone? ;-)
01:22:36 <ehird> I imagine Apple were trying to jump the PPC ship since before 2004.
01:22:43 <ehird> Rugxulo: in fact, the first Intel machines sent to developers—
01:22:47 <ehird> were pentium 4 Mac Pros
01:22:56 <Rugxulo> but Apple never sold anything before Core 1, right?
01:23:03 <ehird> nopee
01:23:05 <ehird> *nope
01:23:09 <Rugxulo> (even though they'd been testing since 2000)
01:23:19 <ehird> i'm going to go ahead and guess that negotiating with intel is hard
01:23:39 <Rugxulo> Intel made a specific variant of the cpu just for Apple
01:23:50 <Rugxulo> then again, Apple is 100% Intel-only, so I'm not too surprised
01:23:55 <ehird> Did they?
01:23:59 <ehird> oh
01:24:00 <ehird> for hte macbook air
01:24:01 <ehird> *the
01:24:06 <ehird> It uses a stock CPU nowadays
01:24:19 <ehird> anyway, dropping ppc support from snow leopard saved ~10 GiB and means they can do a bunch of intel optimisations, which is cool. ppc users aree used to everyything being slow and crufty anyway :D
01:24:24 <ehird> *are *everything *fucking keyboard
01:24:45 <Rugxulo> just the idea that a machine still runs perfectly but is obsoleted ... ugh
01:25:53 <ehird> I'm pretty sure you must be in favour of abolishing capitalism in favour of massexcessism, where the more time you waste and neglect things most people actually use, the more money you get.
01:26:14 <ehird> And PPCs don't run perfectly, btw.
01:26:26 <Rugxulo> nothing does, but it doesn't mean it's useless
01:27:21 <ehird> I'd try to explain proper allocation of resources and practicality and all those sane things but I think I've tried that too many times already.
01:29:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: presumably you'll complain that my static-only linux distro sucks because i'll compile it for i686 only, when all the software could work on i386...
01:30:07 <Rugxulo> Linux these days won't run well (if at all) on less than a 686 anyways
01:30:49 <Rugxulo> and honestly, most people don't have older than a 686 anyways
01:30:55 <Rugxulo> (Fedora is 586+ since 11)
01:31:01 <ehird> Ha, and most people don't have older than an Intel Mac...
01:31:10 <Rugxulo> my Dad does
01:31:14 <ehird> Anyone who buys a Mac expecting a loooooong product life on the latest stuff is deluding themselves anyway.
01:31:19 <ehird> Rugxulo: yeah, and my $person owns a <686 too
01:31:29 <ehird> you do realise that people use linux on embedded devices, btw?
01:31:32 <Rugxulo> I still have an original P1
01:31:35 <ehird> those are ... rather less powerful than a 686.
01:31:50 <Rugxulo> I'm not saying they don't exist, but especially since nobody seems to care, then it's heavily moot
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01:32:20 <ehird> [01:24] Rugxulo: just the idea that a machine still runs perfectly but is obsoleted ... ugh
01:32:25 <Rugxulo> correct
01:32:30 <ehird> pretty sure pentium 1s ran pretty "perfectly" if you stayed minimal
01:32:35 <ehird> you're being pretty contradictory here
01:32:37 <Rugxulo> in Linux??
01:32:42 <Rugxulo> not from my experience
01:32:48 <ehird> that's linux's fault
01:32:51 <Rugxulo> I can do more in DOS than Linux
01:32:53 <ehird> the CPU ran perfectly, which is the issue at hand
01:32:55 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
01:32:56 <ehird> therefore, linux should support it
01:33:03 <ehird> by your argument
01:33:04 <Rugxulo> Linux == elitism
01:33:11 <ehird> ...
01:33:18 <ehird> that's the single-handed dumbest thing you've ever said
01:33:26 <Rugxulo> *typed
01:34:10 <Rugxulo> you only get laughed away trying to do things like that
01:34:32 <Rugxulo> they won't help
01:35:23 <ehird> one, probably because you were saying dumb shit and not listening to them; two, i've never had that experience, ever; three, you do realise as a rebuttal to my statement that according to you, the pentium 1 should be supported by linux, this is a complete non-sequitur?
01:35:50 <Rugxulo> Pentium 1 is (barely) supported
01:35:54 <ehird> and finally, four, if ubuntu (that my mother uses!) is elitist, you're crazy
01:36:03 <Rugxulo> most 586s don't support over a certain amount of RAM (e.g. 64 MB)
01:36:44 <Rugxulo> and in reality, much less is installed, and Linux doesn't work very well with low amounts
01:36:54 <Rugxulo> (unless you like mad swapping)
01:37:21 <ehird> i don't think you've ever tried to use linux on a low-end machine. it can handle low RAM just fine.
01:37:31 <ehird> unless you were trying to install ubuntu with gnome or something.
01:38:04 <Rugxulo> it can't handle it well, that's for sure
01:38:16 <Rugxulo> at least not without recompiling everything from scratch, rolling your own, etc.
01:38:40 <Rugxulo> I'm not talking about the very minimal "runs but does nothing" install either
01:39:58 <ehird> seriously, debian runs on everything.
01:40:05 <ehird> debian+busybox runs on everything and a machine.
01:40:48 <Rugxulo> no, Contiki runs on everything :-)
01:41:13 <ehird> apart from x86-64
01:41:38 <Rugxulo> x86-64 is a mode, not a chip
01:41:49 <ehird> incorrect
01:41:53 <ehird> amd64 is an architecture in itself
01:41:55 <Rugxulo> so it still runs in legacy 32-bit mode
01:42:01 <ehird> it is not the same
01:42:07 <ehird> rtfs (spec)
01:42:17 <Rugxulo> are there any AMD64 chips that won't run 32-bit or 16-bit? no, so it's moot
01:42:30 <ehird> you're not listening to what i'm saying.
01:42:39 <Rugxulo> because I can't hear you, this is text :-P
01:42:54 <ehird> ooh, please point out we're typing into keyboards again, it's hilarious
01:43:35 <Rugxulo> thiis froom thee guuy whoo caan't stoop tallking aboout hiis keeyboard
01:43:47 <ehird> because it sucks and i need to buy a better one
01:43:53 <Rugxulo> okay, no seriously, I know Debian can run on low end, but it won't be fun, that's for sure
01:44:04 <Rugxulo> the days are long gone where you can comfortably run Linux in less than 128 MB of RAM
01:44:07 <ehird> gimme that p1 and i'll get linux on it
01:44:22 <Rugxulo> to do what exactly? 32 MB just isn't enough to do anything
01:44:32 <Rugxulo> even DSL (or TinyCore) needs 32 MB minimum
01:44:39 <ehird> you are wroooooong
01:44:43 <Rugxulo> so that rules out ever compiling anything
01:44:51 <ehird> um, since when
01:44:59 <Rugxulo> unless you go to console only, and even then modern GCC is a hog
01:45:00 <ehird> just because you can't run gcc 4...
01:45:08 <ehird> seriously, you have no idea about this
01:45:18 <Rugxulo> even GCC 3.4.6 would probably be slow (as 3.4.4 with DJGPP isn't really fast)
01:45:42 <ehird> the kernel for instance compiles with gcc 2.
01:46:07 <Rugxulo> it used to *only* compile with GCC 2, but that changed when people finally got tired of that annoyance (although GCC 2 is lightning fast in comparison)
01:46:23 <pikhq> Heck, I'm going to go out and get a Linux system that should run in 32MB of RAM.
01:46:47 <Rugxulo> BasicLinux can run in very low amounts, but it's useless
01:47:09 <ehird> pikhq: as in a computer?
01:47:24 <ehird> http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/linuxjournal/articles/082/8234/8234f3.png
01:47:25 <pikhq> ehird: I don't have said computer any more, sadly.
01:47:26 <ehird> basiclinux is useless?
01:47:37 <ehird> pikhq: ah, you mean a distro or whatever
01:47:40 <pikhq> Yeah.
01:47:45 <pikhq> Trivial to do, really.
01:48:01 <ehird> it seems Rugxulo's definition of useless is runs smoothly on a p1
01:48:07 <ehird> which is an amusingly circular definition.
01:49:03 <Rugxulo> "runs" what, exactly? 'cause kernel + Busybox isn't much functionality, IMHO
01:49:53 <ehird> not like basiclinux runs X11 or anything
01:49:54 <ehird> noooooooooope
01:49:59 <pikhq> That + troff is a nice typesetting system.
01:50:10 <ehird> troff is not a nice typesetting system pikhq.
01:50:11 <pikhq> Well, nice except that it's outclassed by TeX. :P
01:50:25 <pikhq> ehird: I'm mostly referring to the original "official" use of UNIX, there.
01:50:33 <ehird> it's still unreadable
01:50:55 <ehird> troff would be 10x better it you could do \{foo} to mean \n.foo\n
01:51:13 <pikhq> Considering it's competition was not very far removed from the original printing presses, though...
01:52:35 * ehird rewrites a manpage with \{...} out of curiosity
01:52:54 <bsmntbombdood> \textsc{unix}
01:54:01 <ehird> Eh, too lazy!
02:03:21 <Rugxulo> BTW, dumb question, but why a.out?
02:03:29 <pikhq> Because ELF is overkill.
02:03:38 <ehird> I think he means why the filename
02:03:43 <pikhq> Oh, that.
02:03:44 <Rugxulo> no, I meant for your distro
02:03:47 <ehird> Oh, okay.
02:04:00 <ehird> Because ELF was invented to make dynamic linking suck less (and, well, for some debugging stuff).
02:04:06 <ehird> Although really COFF did that too, ELF was just going furtherr.
02:04:07 <ehird> *further
02:04:13 <ehird> As a.out is simpler and I don't do dynamic linking...
02:04:18 <Rugxulo> DJGPP still uses COFF (as does NT, more or less)
02:04:39 <pikhq> NT uses something closely related to COFF.
02:04:44 <ehird> Still, COFF is even more obscure than a.out for Linux, and has the same disadvantages as ELF.
02:04:51 <Rugxulo> their own weird variant, oddly different
02:05:00 <ehird> Windows uses PE, which is a derivative of COFF.
02:05:13 <ehird> What did they use in 9x, I wonder?
02:05:22 <ehird> "Microsoft migrated to the PE format with the introduction of the Windows NT 3.1 operating system. All later versions of Windows, including Windows 95/98/ME, support the file structure."
02:05:25 <ehird> in 3 then
02:05:28 <Rugxulo> still PE in Win9x
02:05:42 <Rugxulo> I suppose they mean Win32s
02:05:46 <ehird> The NE, abbreviation for New Executable, is a 16-bit[1] executable file format that was introduced in Windows 3.x [2], and was also used at a later[dubious – discuss] time in OS/2 and 16-bit Windows. While it was "new" at the time of invention, it is now rare and obsolete, though its usage can still be found by a few select programs.[3] It is backwards compatible with the older DOS MZ format.[1]
02:05:53 <Rugxulo> I don't remember ever seeing PE in Win3x, only NE
02:06:07 <ehird> Someone add NE support to Linux!
02:06:12 <pikhq> PE has an NE/MZ header.
02:06:22 <ehird> Em nemz nemz nemz nemz
02:06:27 <pikhq> ehird: With the new ability to have arbitrary executable formats, not hard at all.
02:06:28 <ehird> Executable nomming.
02:06:35 <bsmntbombdood> unz unz unz unz unz unz
02:06:40 <pikhq> Just make a userspace NE loader, and register it with the kernel.
02:07:00 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relocatable_Object_Module_Format
02:07:01 <ehird> .obj files!
02:07:09 <pikhq> The same trick can be done to add PE support to Linux. (with Win32 support happening all magic-like)
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02:07:40 <ehird> Linux+PE+Wine = Oh god kill me now
02:08:11 <pikhq> ehird: It consists just of making the kernel call out to Wine when it sees a PE header.
02:08:30 <pikhq> Just a matter of making an appropriately formatted file in /proc, IIRC.
02:08:35 <Rugxulo`> bah, too many file formats
02:08:38 <ehird> x(
02:08:54 <pikhq> Not exactly a *great* idea, but nowhere near as crazy as you'd think.
02:09:11 <Rugxulo`> WINE is way more overkill than DOSEMU
02:09:28 <pikhq> WINE does a lot more than DOSEMU.
02:09:32 <Rugxulo`> yes
02:09:42 <pikhq> It implements a complex ABI, rather than just being a vm86 handler.
02:09:58 <pikhq> (and/or a simple 8086 emulator)
02:10:00 <Rugxulo`> DOSEMU on x86-64 emulates all 16-bit instructions
02:10:05 <ehird> Someone gimme some cash to buy a Topre board :(
02:10:29 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
02:10:38 -!- Rugxulo` has changed nick to Rugxulo.
02:11:15 <ehird> Money! To me! In return gratitude. It's an unbeatable deal.
02:11:34 * Rugxulo is reminded of Bedazzled
02:11:51 <ehird> Feed my infinite need to buy a $250 keyboard ;_;
02:12:12 <Rugxulo> can it run Linux? ^_^
02:12:25 <ehird> Nope, but it does have a bunch of switches on the back to remap stuff.
02:12:29 <ehird> DIP switches!
02:12:40 <ehird> well, the controller might be able to run uclinux
02:12:41 <ehird> who knows
02:13:15 <ehird> It doesn't look very fancy at all, really... http://static.benippon.net/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/E/L/ELEC-PD-KB400WN.jpg
02:13:22 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure Linux's support for arbitrary executable formats could be used to implement some compatibility layers (akin to, say, FreeBSD's Linux support)
02:13:35 <ehird> is freebsd's linux support still good these days?
02:13:51 <Rugxulo> should be, last I heard 8.0 would have 2.6 support
02:14:11 <ehird> someone run gnome on top of it :-D
02:14:12 <pikhq> ehird: They're upgrading it from 2.4.2 to 2.6 support, syscall-wise.
02:14:16 <ehird> And X11!
02:14:24 <pikhq> But yeah, it seems to be rather good.
02:15:14 <ehird> maybe i should just get a filco with cherry switches to tide me over, they're more like $100 :-P
02:15:27 <ehird> or an uber-cheap TVS Gold or Scorpius M10 for like $50
02:15:36 <ehird> those only haves blues though.
02:17:04 <ehird> should probably switch to colemamk sometime.
02:17:24 <ehird> *colemak
02:19:44 <lament> please don't
02:20:26 <ehird> lament: why not
02:20:42 <lament> because colemak is a halfway measure between qwerty and dvorak
02:21:00 <ehird> yeah, i thought that too and deewiant said "no it isn't bitch" and i researched it
02:21:02 <lament> rather hard to come up with a legitimate use case for that
02:21:08 <ehird> colemak actually has better statistical properties than dvorak.
02:21:20 <ehird> the numbers don't lie
02:21:26 <lament> the numbers of what?
02:21:30 <ehird> what
02:21:39 <Gregor> What should I name my HackBot-alike wiki?
02:21:42 <lament> what statistical properties?
02:21:44 <ehird> for instance finger travel, how much you stray from the home row
02:21:48 <ehird> hand distribution
02:21:48 <ehird> etc
02:21:55 <ehird> colemak is simply better than dvorak
02:22:00 <ehird> Gregor: Eh?
02:22:04 <lament> ehird: lies.
02:22:12 <ehird> lament: whatever you say.
02:22:21 <lament> unsubstantiated nonsense
02:22:25 <Rugxulo> HockBat, HackBotter, HackBot++
02:22:28 <ehird> that's nice, troll
02:22:38 <Gregor> ehird: I'm thinking of making a wiki where every node is like a command in HackEgo.
02:22:53 <ehird> Gregor: that's not really a "wiki" is it
02:23:11 <Gregor> How is it not? Anybody can edit any page, the pages just happen to be scripts.
02:23:27 <ehird> So, everything that lets people change it on the internet is now a wiki?
02:23:37 <ehird> Collaborative paint? more like WIKI PAINT
02:23:57 <Gregor> Except this would actually be extremely similar to a wiki, in that there are pages which are editable.
02:24:03 <lament> but the biggest problem with colemak is that it's used exclusively by douchebag
02:24:14 <lament> s
02:24:16 <ehird> lament: Deewiant loves you too
02:24:18 <lament> i've only met one person who used colemak, and he was a douchebag
02:24:25 <ehird> n=1
02:24:27 <ehird> great sample size
02:24:37 <lament> well it's not a very popular layout
02:24:42 <ehird> lament: do you use dvorak?
02:24:44 <lament> yes
02:24:51 <ehird> funny, you're a douchebag too
02:25:05 <ehird> i will now proceed to discard all the rest of my sample of dvorak users to be on a level playing field
02:25:10 <Rugxulo> http://www.kimgrahamstudios.com/images/troll-15.jpg
02:25:12 <lament> :(
02:25:21 <ehird> it's fun having an op that's a troll!
02:25:23 <ehird> lament: aw sorry :(
02:25:25 <lament> i'm not a douchebag. I'm not even a bag!
02:25:36 <ehird> you're not even a tree i don't know what Rugxulo is talkingn about
02:25:36 <Rugxulo> not a meatbag? ;-)
02:25:40 <ehird> *talking
02:26:35 <Rugxulo> that lady is weird
02:26:38 <Rugxulo> heh
02:27:35 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:28:54 <ehird> anyway
02:28:54 <ehird> 25-Dec-2006: David Piepgrass: Why QWERTY, And What's Better? (PDF).
02:28:54 <ehird> “All things considered, I believe Colemak is better than Dvorak and the best alternative to QWERTY.”
02:28:54 <ehird> David Piepgrass is the designer of the Asset keyboard layout.
02:28:55 <ehird> According to carpalx, which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models.
02:28:55 <ehird> According to Andrei Stanescu: "Colemak is quite close to Dvorak. It scores a little bit better in some areas and a bit worse in other areas, and its overall score is usually 2-5% better than that of Dvorak, but it is worse for some texts. So it's slightly better than Dvorak, especially if you take into consideration its other advantages (better position for Backspace and similarity to Qwerty)."
02:29:00 <ehird> —http://colemak.com/Media
02:29:02 <ehird> yes, their media page is biased but that doesn't change the facts. also, http://colemak.com/Ergonomic
02:29:04 <ehird> also see http://colemak.com/Compare to get some statistics for various texts
02:29:06 <ehird> i could go on but i'm lazy
02:30:36 <ehird> anyway I type fast enough on QWERTY, so it's mainly hand strain and comfort that makes me want to switch.
02:30:47 <ehird> (i think slower than i can type, so)
02:31:24 <Rugxulo> BTW, ehird, what main apps will your distro intend to run?
02:32:29 <ehird> window manager http://dwm.suckless.org/, terminal emulator (either urxvt or st (http://st.suckless.org/) or something), command-line toolset, vim, irc client ii (http://tools.suckless.org/ii), browser prolly surf http://surf.suckless.org/... i swear it isn't all suckless software, just the most-used stuff :-P
02:32:40 <ehird> (ignoring infrastructure)
02:32:59 <ehird> (in which case my init, my package manager, xorg, not sure what shell yet (maybe pdksh))
02:33:00 <Rugxulo> TinyC?
02:33:14 <ehird> Rugxulo: alas tcc can't really compile much worthwhile. besides, it's ELF only
02:33:26 <ehird> gcc for kernel+libc+stuff,
02:33:27 <Rugxulo> but it can run .c as if scripts
02:33:34 <ehird> clang (llvm) for the rest
02:33:38 <ehird> or gcc if absoslutely needed
02:33:41 <ehird> *absolutely
02:33:43 <ehird> libc is probably newlib
02:33:47 <ehird> or eglibc for shit things that require glibc
02:33:50 <ehird> Rugxulo: no it can't
02:33:54 <ehird> it just compiles them and runs them
02:34:00 <ehird> you can do that with anything. besides, it's useless
02:34:01 <Rugxulo> in rAM?
02:34:05 <ehird> no
02:34:07 <ehird> to a temp file
02:34:17 <Rugxulo> hmmm, okay
02:34:54 <ehird> tcc is cool though... shinhichiro hamaji (anarchy golf owner) contributed 64-bit support to the latest release
02:35:14 <Rugxulo> I know Rob Landrey whined forever that it didn't support 64-bit
02:35:28 <ehird> is that the guy that worked on it?
02:35:35 <ehird> there were other reasons too iirc
02:35:36 <Rugxulo> he forked it a few times, that's all
02:35:48 <ehird> his complaints were mostly complete dormancy.
02:35:53 -!- lament has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Colemak = ban.
02:35:56 <ehird> little option other than to fork
02:35:57 <Rugxulo> well, that and relying on CVS
02:36:01 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
02:36:05 <Rugxulo> which he hates with a passion
02:36:49 <ehird> as does anyone sane.
02:36:55 <ehird> and most insane.
02:39:27 <pikhq> CVS's use was only excusable when the principle alternative was RCS...
02:39:48 * pikhq shudders
02:42:10 <ehird> let's talk about things not likenable to laughing at a retarded kitten
02:42:53 <ehird> if (argc == 2 && !strcmp(argv[1], "--version")) {
02:42:53 <ehird> puts("This is not GNU sed version 4.0");
02:42:54 <ehird> return 0;
02:42:54 <ehird> }
02:42:54 <ehird> —busybox
02:42:59 <ehird> oopps
02:43:02 <ehird> chopped fof the comment
02:43:05 <ehird> /* Lie to autoconf when it starts asking stupid questions. */
02:43:09 <ehird> above that
02:43:17 <ehird> *oops *chopped *off
02:43:21 <Rugxulo> heh
02:43:40 <Rugxulo> 'chopped' was correct ;-)
02:45:10 <ehird> 12:10:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't think i have tried to use /list without a channel argument, if that's what you mean. i'm not _that_ stupid :D
02:45:10 <ehird> works fine
02:45:12 <ehird> even on efnet
02:45:29 <ehird> in fact it only takes a few seconds on freenode
02:45:44 <ehird> there's only 5769 public rooms
02:46:12 <ehird> "[#!/bin/mksh] Welcome to the portable MirBSD Korn Shell discussion channel. For mksh on MirBSD see #mirbsd on Freeforge (http://mirbsd.de/irc) as well; be invited to stay here though. Encoding: UTF-8. English spoken. Wir sprechen Deutsch."
02:46:13 <ehird> oooooooooh
02:46:35 <Rugxulo> just a fork of pdksh
02:46:37 <ehird> "This is the website of the MirBSD™ Korn Shell, an actively developed free implementation of the Korn Shell programming language and a successor to the Public Domain Korn Shell (pdksh)."
02:46:40 <ehird> hope it ain't bloated
02:46:44 <ehird> Rugxulo: pdksh is unmaintained though
02:46:47 <Rugxulo> I know
02:46:57 <Rugxulo> they also forked JOE (-> JUPP)
02:47:13 <ehird> definitely not gonna ship bash
02:47:42 <Rugxulo> you can do an "--enable-minimal-config" with Bash, if desired
02:47:53 <ehird> eh, much rather have a better shell
02:47:55 <Rugxulo> oh, don't forget Dash (although if you dislike GPL, it probably is)
02:48:01 <ehird> dash will be available for compatibility, probably
02:48:13 <ehird> for shell scripting, rc will be overwhelmingly recommended
02:49:15 <ehird> I'm consdering shipping the Heirloom tools http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/ as the userlaand
02:49:18 <ehird> *userland
02:49:53 <Rugxulo> I don't think rc will run autoconf scripts, so you'll have to use dash or similar
02:50:11 <ehird> no duh, rc is totally different
02:50:21 <ehird> autoconf scripts can be run with pdksh and the like.
02:50:28 <ehird> since they're ridiculously over-portable.
02:50:35 <ehird> which in this case happens to be advantageous for me.
02:50:39 <Rugxulo> I dunno, often they don't get enough testing
02:50:42 <ehird> dash will be an optional install i.e. a package
02:50:50 <ehird> if something breaks, try and fix it, else install dash
02:50:57 <Rugxulo> any reason to avoid GPL (e.g. dietlibc) explicitly?
02:51:12 <ehird> well, one, I don't like GPL, but I have two specific objections to dietlibc being GPL
02:51:23 <ehird> one, the author is a raving loon about it (says it's to stop microsoft stealing it to make windows better)
02:51:31 <ehird> two, it means i can't redistribute non-GPL binaries compiled with it
02:51:36 <ehird> so i simply cannot use it
02:51:43 <ehird> (and yes, this is acknowledged by the author)
02:51:43 <madbrain> yeah, maybe LGPL might be better no?
02:51:47 <ehird> madbrain: aha, in fact
02:51:51 <ehird> uclibc is lgpl and i can't use it either
02:51:52 <ehird> because
02:51:54 <ehird> since i statically link
02:51:54 <Rugxulo> non-GPL compatible, maybe, but that's not a huge problem as lots of stuff is GPL anyways
02:51:59 <ehird> i'd have to distribute the unlinked .o
02:52:05 <ehird> with the binary
02:52:11 <ehird> (the program's .o)
02:52:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: ha ha ha ha ha ha HA
02:52:18 <madbrain> well then just do that
02:52:28 <ehird> Rugxulo: no, a large amount of non-shit software is non-gpl
02:52:40 <Rugxulo> I know others exist, but GPL is definitely popular
02:52:48 <ehird> for instance all suckless tools, all ported plan 9 tools, ... and a lot of shit software is non-gpl too: xorg, ncurses, ...
02:53:00 <Rugxulo> clang, etc.
02:53:13 <ehird> Rugxulo: let's put it this way — simply by selecting the least crappy software I can, I will be shipping almost no GPL'd code
02:53:29 <ehird> depending on having all the programs I ship be GPL will simply never happen
02:53:37 <ehird> anyway, my first objection stands regardless of anything; he's a loon
02:53:42 <ehird> (in fact he's a rather well-known loon)
02:54:00 <ehird> btw since when is clang gpl.
02:54:14 <ehird> it's bsd just like llvm
02:54:27 <ehird> ...which is why I'm probably going to use it as the main userspace compiler
02:54:29 <pikhq> llvm-gcc is the only GPL thing of LLVM.
02:54:39 <ehird> (will have to write my own a.out support for LLVM; easy enough)
02:54:45 <Rugxulo> no, I said Clang was BSD
02:54:52 <ehird> you didn't, but i see how to parse it now
02:54:58 <Rugxulo> I'm not denying other licenses exist, but GPL is everywhere (seemingly)
02:55:34 <ehird> thankfully those sane enough to produce decent software are also almost always sane enough to avoid the gpl
02:55:46 <ehird> let's see, what will be gpl'd that i ship... linux and...
02:55:49 <ehird> um. ..
02:55:55 <ehird> pretty sure that's it
02:56:01 <Rugxulo> VIM is GPL compatible, but I don't know the exact details
02:56:04 <ehird> (ofc there will be gpl'd packages available, talking about default distribution)
02:56:21 <ehird> ah, okay, linux and vim then
02:56:33 <ehird> — I'd prefer to ship a better vi clone than vim but they all kinda suck
02:56:36 <Rugxulo> Perl is dual licensed, I think (artistic and GPL)
02:56:39 <ehird> at least vim isn't retarded about being traditional
02:56:45 <Rugxulo> Elvis? XVI? VILE?
02:56:46 <ehird> i'm looking at you, http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/
02:56:56 <ehird> (by the same guy as the heirloom tools incidentally)
02:57:07 <ehird> elvis is unmaintained and shit, wait, i just addressed all of them :P
02:57:08 <Rugxulo> nvi
02:57:27 <ehird> nvi is basically the same as http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/
02:57:32 <ehird> except nvi is a reimplementation
02:57:41 <Rugxulo> I like VILE, personally, but Elvis is okay too, XVI is a little too spartan
02:57:42 <ehird> and ex-vi is the real deal
02:57:52 <ehird> vile isn't a vi clone anyway
02:57:58 <ehird> it's emacsy vi
02:58:01 <Rugxulo> no, NVI is a clean-room reimplementation that is 8-bit clean, full undo, tab completion, etc.
02:58:19 <Rugxulo> but VILE does a lot of stuff normal vi does while keeping most "finger feel"
02:58:48 <Rugxulo> nvi is BSD, by the way
02:58:53 <ehird> we'll see, anyway
02:59:03 <ehird> maybe I'll just ship plan9port's acme :)))
02:59:05 <ehird> (nah)
02:59:19 <ehird> I will ship some 9base tools though, maybe even the whole thing
02:59:28 <Rugxulo> e3vi ?
02:59:37 <pikhq> ehird: Well, it's not surprising that you've got non-GPL'd stuff as the default distribution.
02:59:38 <ehird> (plan9port fork that just has minimal stuff, no plan9 gui tools or whatever; rc, awk, sed, a few plan9 libs etc)
02:59:40 <Rugxulo> (hmmm, can't remember what license)
02:59:51 <ehird> In fact, I might use the libutf included for osme stuff
02:59:53 <ehird> *some
03:00:01 <ehird> the original, and best, unicode+utf-8 library
03:00:19 <ehird> (first implementation of utf-8, right after they invented it)
03:00:22 <pikhq> Most of the nonsuck out there is pretty much BSD.
03:00:28 <Rugxulo> no
03:00:34 <ehird> No?
03:00:40 <Rugxulo> it comes in all shapes and sizes :-)
03:00:50 <ehird> it really doesn't
03:00:53 <Rugxulo> good and bad stuff exists in everything
03:01:06 <ehird> it takes someone sane to produce software that doesn't suck, or at least sanely insane
03:01:08 <Rugxulo> license is arbitrary
03:01:09 <pikhq> (There's GNU stuff that at least functions correctly, and there's old proprietary UNIX stuff that has crazy amounts of buffer overflows)
03:01:11 <ehird> sane people don't use the gpl
03:01:43 <ehird> the mindset someone requires to use the gpl (authoritarian, paranoia, conspiratorial anti-corporatism, ...) is the kind of mindset that produces bad software
03:01:47 <ehird> (especially authoritarianism)
03:01:47 <Rugxulo> even MS (rarely) uses the GPL (for that tiny bit of driver code they wrote recently)
03:01:58 <ehird> Rugxulo: and? MS stuff sucks
03:01:58 <Rugxulo> and most people consider them "most insane of all" !!
03:02:14 <Rugxulo> but 99% of their stuff ain't GPL, so ... how can it suck? ;-)
03:02:15 <ehird> multiple exclamation marks. a sure sign of madness
03:02:20 <ehird> Rugxulo: fallacy
03:02:28 <ehird> most non-suck isn't GPL != most non-GPL isn't suck
03:02:41 <ehird> come on, that's like a third grader's logical error
03:02:46 <Rugxulo> I know, but you'd think that the company with the most money could hire the best talent, and yet that isn't true either
03:02:55 <ehird> they can and do, ms people are smart
03:02:58 <Rugxulo> and they shun the GPL yet still "suck"
03:03:00 <ehird> it's just that they can't manage them
03:03:00 <Rugxulo> uh, no
03:03:08 <ehird> uh, yes.
03:03:17 <Rugxulo> not in my experience
03:03:20 <ehird> you realise, Rugxulo, that the inventors of unix worked for ms?
03:03:24 <ehird> well some of them at least
03:03:26 <ehird> ritchie iirc
03:03:34 <Rugxulo> not that I know of
03:03:41 <ehird> eh, i forget who it was
03:03:43 <Rugxulo> I know they hired the VMS dude and owned Xenix for a while
03:03:49 <Rugxulo> Dave Cutler?
03:03:54 <ehird> HAHAHAHA no
03:04:01 <ehird> cutler is a moron who hates unix and spreads fud about it
03:04:21 <Rugxulo> he hates Windows too
03:04:27 <ehird> no he doesn't, he loves NT
03:04:30 <Rugxulo> not anymore
03:04:39 <ehird> oh, did he change his mind? exciting.
03:04:56 <ehird> anyway, yes, some MS people are smart. the reason they don't have as many is because they manage the smart people terribly
03:05:00 <ehird> so smart people avoid them
03:05:07 <ehird> they're perfectly capable of hiring them
03:05:35 <Rugxulo> he stopped working for them after NT 4.0 (from what I heard)
03:05:48 <Rugxulo> they just kept him quiet about his differences and continued without him
03:06:02 <ehird> what ... he still works at microsoft dude
03:06:05 <Rugxulo> and MS is too keen to advertise instead of actually fixing things
03:06:11 <Rugxulo> no he doesn't, at least not last I heard
03:06:14 <Rugxulo> even Zippo doesn't work there anymore
03:06:23 <ehird> "David Cutler at work on Windows Azure", picture, wikipedia
03:06:24 <ehird> A Community Technology Preview was given to Professional Developers Conference 2008 attendees.[3] This preview is set to expire in the 2nd quarter of 2009.[citation needed]
03:06:37 <ehird> At the 2008 Professional Developers Conference, Microsoft announced Azure Services Platform, a cloud-based operating system which Microsoft is developing. During the conference keynote, Cutler was mentioned as a lead developer on the project, along with Amitabh Srivastava.[3]
03:06:41 <ehird> He was officially involved with the Windows XP Pro 64-bit and Windows Server 2003 SP1 64-bit releases, as well as Windows Vista. He moved to working on Microsoft's Live Platform in August 2006. Dave Cutler was awarded the prestigious status of Technical Fellow at Microsoft.
03:06:55 <ehird> http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/techfellow/Cutler/default.mspx
03:07:09 <Rugxulo> that sounds different from what I read, but what do I know? :-P
03:07:32 <ehird> seems ksh doesn't support tab completion or whatever, begging the question "why use this over rc?"
03:07:48 <pikhq> ehird: Man...
03:07:51 <ehird> only reason not to use rc is because terminals are dumb and rc only does what it shhould (be a shell)
03:07:53 <pikhq> That's quite awful.
03:07:54 <ehird> *should
03:08:02 <ehird> so as a hack, use a shitty shell that oversteps its boundaries
03:08:06 <ehird> pikhq: define "that"
03:08:11 <pikhq> No tab completion?
03:08:13 <pikhq> *shudder*
03:09:18 <Rugxulo> I think?? pdksh supports tab completion
03:09:29 <ehird> really cuz i installed it and i see no tabs bein' completed
03:09:34 <Rugxulo> BTW, here's what I read on Wikipedia for Cutler (discussion page, heh, not exactly official):
03:09:36 <ehird> reading the manpage
03:09:36 <Rugxulo> "Cutler 'left' Microsoft in the spring of 1996. Oh yes he's 'officially' on board but that's only because Microsoft don't want to lose his name. Instead they've helped finance Cutler's race car passion. As Cutler himself said of the deal: 'it keeps me from pissing all over them'. By the time of the Denver DC the word was getting out and Microsofties were whispering in panic 'Dave is gone! Dave is gone!' —Preceding unsigned com
03:09:37 <Rugxulo> by 90.5.7.87 (talk • contribs) 20:47, August 31, 2008"
03:09:55 <ehird> conspiracy theories; exciting
03:10:48 <ehird> Interactive Input Line Editing
03:10:48 <ehird> The shell supports three modes of reading command lines from a tty in
03:10:49 <ehird> an interactive session. Which is used is controlled by the emacs,
03:10:52 <ehird> seems promising
03:12:35 <ehird> well i can edit line but not tab
03:12:47 <ehird> vi-tabcomplete In vi command line editing, do
03:12:47 <ehird> command / file name completion
03:12:48 <ehird> when tab (^I) is entered in
03:12:48 <ehird> insert mode.
03:12:49 <ehird> must be close
03:13:01 <Rugxulo> "And sorry but I have first hand information that regardless of where he was officially moved he wasn't there anymore. He got sick and tired of them, did a deal to stay silent, and left. He turns up for dos and MS want his name around but he is definitely out of the picture by the spring of 1996. And that's first hand info - from the former developers on his team right outside the Tribe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90
03:13:01 <Rugxulo> (talk • contribs) 20:47, August 31, 2008"
03:14:22 <ehird> yay
03:14:24 <ehird> got completion working
03:14:58 <ehird> set -o emacs
03:14:58 <ehird> bind ^I=complete-list
03:15:00 <ehird> stick in ~/.kshrc
03:15:09 <ehird> or, hm
03:15:11 <ehird> does it read .kshrc
03:15:36 <ehird> FILES
03:15:36 <ehird> ~/.profile
03:15:36 <ehird> /etc/profile
03:15:37 <ehird> /etc/suid_profile
03:15:37 <ehird> helpful
03:17:19 <ehird> whatever, those are the two commands you need
03:19:54 <ehird> well, this seems to "work"
03:19:59 <ehird> i'd much prefer rc, but...
03:22:59 <ehird> I need to refine my C code.
03:25:42 <ehird> "BTW, don't blame me for this hack; it's in the original ksh."
03:28:14 <ehird> PS1="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')$ "
03:30:13 <ehird> What's the code to change title of xterm again?
03:32:24 <pikhq> Pity my code for that is in zsh...
03:35:37 <ehird> set -o emacs
03:35:37 <ehird> bind ^I=complete-list
03:35:38 <ehird> dir="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')"
03:35:38 <ehird> title=$(printf "\r\r\r\e]0;$dir\a\r")
03:35:38 <ehird> PS1="$title$dir$ "
03:35:38 <ehird> unset dir title
03:35:40 <ehird> BEHOLD
03:36:20 <ehird> I don't think the r stuff works properly
03:36:21 <ehird> so
03:36:30 <ehird> set -o emacs
03:36:30 <ehird> bind ^I=complete-list
03:36:30 <ehird> dir="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')"
03:36:31 <ehird> title=$(printf "\e]0;$dir\a")
03:36:31 <ehird> PS1="$title$dir$ "
03:36:31 <ehird> unset dir title
03:37:16 <ehird> if [ $0 = ksh ]; then . ~/.kshrc; fi
03:37:16 <ehird> in ~/.profile
03:37:26 <ehird> And we're done.
03:38:01 <ehird> oh
03:38:03 <ehird> ksh does ##
03:39:03 <ehird> hmm what's the ${##} type thing to replace...
03:39:12 <ehird> gah, rc is so much simpler than all of this b u l l s h i t
03:39:46 <ehird> you wanna know how you get shit in the title in rc?
03:39:47 <ehird> fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd}^'\a' }
03:39:51 <ehird> that doesn't do the replacement
03:39:59 <ehird> wanna know how fucking easy it is to do the replacement?
03:40:20 <ehird> fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd | sed "s@^$HOME@~@"}^'\a' }
03:40:26 <ehird> wait, no " quotes
03:40:27 <ehird> whatever
03:40:28 <ehird> you get the idea
03:40:29 <ehird> trivial shit
03:40:33 <ehird> damn these shells
03:41:56 <ehird> btw, why do people truncate history files?
03:43:48 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
03:43:55 <ehird> ahh finally
03:43:58 <ehird> I have cracked it
03:45:01 <ehird> wait
03:45:02 <ehird> argh
03:45:32 <ehird> okay, i will get this working
03:51:07 <ehird> why ism't there a rlwrap that keeps track of cwd
03:51:09 <ehird> isn't
03:55:18 <ehird> emhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
04:10:13 -!- deschutron has joined.
04:16:22 <madbrain> hmm
04:16:25 -!- Pthing has joined.
04:16:53 <madbrain> what would be a good repartition of memory cycles for a system
04:17:59 * ehird considers writing a fortran compiler for no reason
04:18:06 <madbrain> considering you have 400 memory cycles per scanline (in 320x240 @ 60fps) to share between video hardware, cpu and sound
04:18:27 <ehird> who needs 60fps, do 640x480 @ 30fps
04:18:51 <ehird> :P
04:19:03 <madbrain> 30fps is not NTSC or VGA compatible
04:19:06 <ehird> (in fact I'd go for 1280x960 @ 15fps unless i was going to do fun demosceney stuff, but eh; no lcds really support that res)
04:19:10 <ehird> madbrain: touché
04:19:21 <ehird> do 24fps then :-P or 29.999997 or whatever ntsc is
04:19:33 <ehird> but 320x240 is a bit low w imo
04:19:36 <ehird> *low imo
04:19:52 <madbrain> VGA refuses to display anything that had a horiz refresh of less than 30khz
04:20:02 <madbrain> but you can use line doubling
04:20:21 <madbrain> (in fact that's what vga does for low resolution modes)
04:20:34 <madbrain> ehird: hmmmm
04:20:48 <ehird> i mean you can do fun graphics at 320x240, but text will be ugly or limited
04:20:49 <madbrain> depends on the use
04:21:05 <madbrain> yeah text definitely benefits from 640x480
04:21:12 <ehird> 30fps is enough for all the fast-paced FPS games out there /shrug
04:21:17 <deschutron> do you mean set the video output at 30Hz, and then display each frame twice at 60Hz
04:21:18 <deschutron> ?
04:21:26 <ehird> that could work, yep
04:22:05 <madbrain> If you display 640x480 on a TV, you have to make it interlaced though
04:22:26 <ehird> could just use a crt
04:22:28 <ehird> (non-tv)
04:22:36 <madbrain> yeah, that would make it VGA
04:22:45 <ehird> i guess vga is too boringly conventional :-D
04:22:51 <madbrain> Afaik a CRT accepts most stuff you throw at it
04:22:55 <ehird> yeah
04:22:58 <madbrain> So it's actually not bad
04:22:59 <ehird> interlacing would work fine though
04:23:08 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:23:13 <madbrain> But the horiz rate has to be at least 30khz
04:23:13 <ehird> well, apart from the artifacts :-P
04:23:19 <ehird> mm
04:24:14 <madbrain> Hence 320x240 (which is actually 320x480 with each line displayed twice) and 640x480
04:24:59 <ehird> Supporting a TV is cool, though... but interlacing artifacts would ruin the coolness of hooking up an fpga to a TV and seeing a spinning cube :)
04:25:20 <ehird> do 576i!
04:25:33 <madbrain> what is that
04:25:37 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/576i
04:25:40 <ehird> pal tv resolution
04:25:57 <madbrain> I have no device that would show it
04:26:00 <ehird> what do you canucks use
04:26:02 <ehird> ntsc?
04:26:04 <madbrain> yeah
04:26:19 <madbrain> yankeevision
04:26:48 <ehird> low resolution might not be so bad since it's a crt tv
04:26:52 <ehird> they basically antialiase for you ;-)
04:27:20 <madbrain> I'm probably going to base it on VGA timing
04:27:30 <madbrain> specifically VGA 640x480
04:28:48 <madbrain> I wonder if LCDs will accept 524 scanline 640x480 or if they want 525 scanlines
04:29:01 <ehird> isn't vga 640x480 interlacing on a tv
04:29:13 <ehird> also, LCDs just accept their native resolution. anything else is acceptable
04:29:15 <ehird> it'll just scale it to shit
04:29:33 <madbrain> well, dunno how LCDs handle freaky hacked VGA modes
04:29:44 <ehird> badly
04:30:05 <madbrain> one thing I know is that they guess the horiz resolution from the # of lines
04:30:28 <madbrain> specifically they guess 640x350, 720x400 and 640x480
04:31:11 <madbrain> Unfortunately that wrecks 640x400 modes (80x50 text mode and 320x200)
04:33:41 <Ilari> Aren't normal text modes 9 pixels wide per character cell?
04:34:09 <madbrain> there are both 8 pixel and 9 pixel modes!
04:34:20 <ehird> that's way too small to actually read though :P
04:34:47 <madbrain> in fact VGA has 2 different clock crystals, one for 8 pixel mode (640x) and one for 9 pixel mode (720x)
04:35:09 <Ilari> Isn't there also 16 pixel mode?
04:35:17 <ehird> each glyph must be 8x20 for 640x480 80x24 text mode
04:36:13 <madbrain> In 9 pixel mode it generates an extra pixel, usually black, without any charset data
04:36:23 <ehird> by glyph i mean including spaciing
04:36:25 <ehird> *spacing
04:36:28 <madbrain> ehird: that's a kinda weird mode
04:36:36 <ehird> so assuming one pixel character separation,
04:36:40 <ehird> and two pixel line separation
04:36:48 <ehird> chars themselves would be 7x18
04:36:50 <ehird> generally
04:37:00 <ehird> well
04:37:08 <ehird> yeah
04:37:22 <ehird> madbrain: it's weird, but it's also fun and unconventional :P
04:37:35 <madbrain> more common is 640x350 80x25 with 8x14 chars, 720x400 80x25 with 8+1x16 chars
04:37:53 <madbrain> 640x400 80x50 with 8x8 :D
04:38:01 <ehird> but 80x24 is more common than 80x25 :-P
04:38:06 <madbrain> not on PC!
04:38:11 <ehird> define pc
04:38:14 <ehird> 80x24 is universal on unix
04:38:15 <madbrain> IBM PC
04:38:23 <ehird> bah :-P
04:38:35 <ehird> who wants to imitate the PC!
04:39:22 <madbrain> I've done some ZZT and Megazeux games, the systems are based on 80x25
04:39:30 <ehird> anyway, square chars are silly :-P
04:39:44 <ehird> english isn't square!
04:39:50 <madbrain> Well, that's because our alphabet is narrow yeah :D
04:40:21 <ehird> 8x12 might be good; gives you 80x40
04:40:31 <ehird> which is an *excellent* size for English text
04:40:53 <ehird> (and programming...)
04:41:26 <ehird> might be a bit TOO narrow though
04:41:40 <ehird> oh, of course
04:41:45 <ehird> use two pixels at bottom or top for line spacing
04:41:47 <ehird> and only one for char spacing
04:41:55 <ehird> (of course you can use them for characters that don't quite fit...)
04:42:03 <ehird> that way it isn't quite as narrow but the glyphs are still 8x12
04:42:12 <lament> 8
04:42:13 <madbrain> ok, I have my VGA tweaking program ready to use :D
04:42:13 <lament> 12
04:42:57 <madbrain> http://www.gameprogrammer.com/demos/tweak16b.zip <- a good old classic vga tweaking program some dude wrote in 1993
04:44:53 <ehird> drawing non-cookie-cutter pixel fonts is hard
04:45:00 <madbrain> ok, the monitor can definitely cope with a missing vga line or two :D
04:45:17 <ehird> 8x12 would be cool to serif
04:45:17 <madbrain> ehird: I drew a couple in megazeux's char editor
04:45:24 * ehird plays with it
04:45:30 <madbrain> (8x14 of course since that's what megazeux uses)
04:46:06 <madbrain> The best trick with text mode fonts is to keep using 2 pixel wide vertical lines
04:49:00 <ehird> hmm, that could make this look less like an outline, yeah
04:49:56 <ehird> ooh
04:50:00 <ehird> there's enough variation to do bold here
04:50:03 <ehird> i like this size
04:55:30 <ehird> madbrain: 7x12 might be better for english text, actually (regular glyph size 6x10 due to spacing)
04:55:45 <ehird> although... hmm
04:55:46 <ehird> nah
04:55:53 <ehird> (it's just that "c" looks a bit stretched)
04:57:14 <ehird> hmm
04:57:24 <ehird> madbrain: does 640x480 on a tv have square pixels?
04:57:35 <madbrain> on TVs?
04:57:38 <ehird> yah
04:57:49 <madbrain> On TVs it's probably something like "who knows"
04:58:09 <madbrain> I can't remember if TVs eat the top and bottom 8 lines
04:58:17 <madbrain> but possibly yes
04:59:17 <ehird> funny how the pixels look different when you zoom out
04:59:24 <ehird> most CRTs are so crappy as to smooth out any oddities anyway :D
04:59:41 <madbrain> At least ZSNES seems to output 256x224
05:00:09 <ehird> and wow — 640x480 is a lot with 8x12 characters! (7x10 regular glyphs yada yada yada)
05:00:28 <ehird> could fit a novel onto one screen :P
05:00:46 <madbrain> yeah
05:01:08 <ehird> 80x40 doesn't seem much, but it looks like it...
05:01:50 <madbrain> Many apps use 80x50
05:02:42 <ehird> Funny how you have to do slightly different m etrics to get bold characters to have the same shape as regular ones.
05:03:00 <ehird> *metrics
05:03:36 <ehird> why don't people do more serifed pixel fonts?
05:03:50 <madbrain> Dunno, I like sans serif :D
05:04:01 <ehird> so do I, but serif pixel fonts look nice
05:04:08 <ehird> since the serifs are so tiny, it's just like adding some spice to it
05:04:18 <madbrain> It's a style yeah
05:04:36 <madbrain> Sans serif is a bit more stylistically neutral
05:05:19 <ehird> but all sans serif pixel fonts look the same :)
05:05:34 <madbrain> Depends if you're creative :D
05:06:55 <ehird> well definitely my, what was it, 3x4 glyphs (always 1px spacing around it, so 4x5 if you want ot be pedantic) were pretty unique and yet the same...
05:07:04 <ehird> unique because I had to contort lots of characters in fun ways, the same because, well
05:07:18 <ehird> there aren't many ways to draw the alphabet, numbers and some punctuation at that size
05:07:25 <ehird> although i did have two sets of numbers, lowercase and uppercase
05:07:28 <ehird> that went with the corresponding alphabet
05:07:29 <madbrain> I suggest 8 pixel wide
05:07:38 <ehird> and every single one was different
05:07:48 <ehird> madbrain: glyph or char (spacing)
05:07:59 <ehird> glyph w/o spacing char w/
05:08:30 <madbrain> Including spacing, so 7 pixel of data
05:08:48 <madbrain> Unless you also use the spacing pixels!
05:09:10 <ehird> sometimes you can use them for e.g. accents
05:09:13 <ehird> or punctuation
05:09:15 <ehird> and descenders
05:09:22 <ehird> (ascenders it's generally best to leave the normal spacing)
05:10:00 <ehird> the one I'm doing now is 7x10 usual glyph, 8x12 size
05:10:10 <ehird> so your suggestion has been heeded :-P
05:10:38 <madbrain> yeah you need space for descencers, accents over capital letters
05:10:40 <madbrain> etc
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05:10:53 <ehird> i have a whole two vertical pixels available for descenders :-P
05:10:56 <ehird> (the vertical spacing at the bottom)
05:11:29 <ehird> no real space for accents though :-D
05:11:30 <madbrain> I think 8x14 fonts normally have 2 space lines at the top and 3 at the bottom
05:11:44 <ehird> boring
05:11:53 <ehird> 7x10 glyphs are just enough to be able to design :P
05:12:02 <ehird> e is really hard though
05:12:27 <madbrain> dunno, you don't have to squeeze it
05:12:34 <madbrain> compared to, say, m
05:12:39 <ehird> well, to get it looking like my other chars
05:12:41 <madbrain> Also sometimes hard: s
05:12:44 <madbrain> And T
05:12:52 <ehird> there we go
05:13:01 <ehird> madbrain: aah s was almost impossible in my 3x4-glyph font
05:13:05 <ehird> also Z vs 2
05:13:12 <ehird> and z vs Z
05:13:19 <ehird> (capital letter = lowercase letter height for space)
05:13:39 <ehird> in the end I used an optical illusion to make it look like z was like a small zeta even though it had no curve :P
05:13:40 <madbrain> most snes games use sans serif
05:13:53 <ehird> I used the same to do N
05:13:59 <ehird> i had to optical illusion the slant
05:15:57 <madbrain> just don't make it into a typewriter font :D
05:16:50 <ehird> heh, why?
05:17:53 <madbrain> Dunno, I always thought courrier looked awful :D
05:18:27 <ehird> oh god, it does
05:18:30 <ehird> i hate courier
05:19:34 <madbrain> some games have chinese calligraphy imitation fonts
05:19:58 <madbrain> although it's hard to shoehorn latin letters into chinese calligraphy due to the kind of shape they use :D
05:20:08 <ehird> xD
05:22:16 <ehird> my bold letters look smaller
05:22:23 <ehird> well they are, i guess, they're shorter generally, the lowercase parts
05:22:26 <ehird> but that's just so they don't look weird
05:24:50 <ehird> ooh f is a challenge
05:26:33 <ehird> success, I think
05:26:39 <ehird> looks a bit weird, but oho well
05:26:43 <ehird> very serif
05:28:42 <ehird> I should use this as a terminal font
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05:34:53 <madbrain> I think there's this idea that sans serif is closer to a "pure" version of the letters
05:35:13 <ehird> that's true, but it also reflects why sans serif pixel fonts almost all look identical
05:35:27 <ehird> because you have to express the purest form in such constraints, there's almost a "right way" to do it
05:35:29 <ehird> *do it
05:35:49 <ehird> at bigger sizes there's more ambiguity, so to speak, so you can have unique sans serif typefaces
05:35:58 <ehird> but going smaller, serifs really help to distinguish it
05:41:11 <madbrain> hoo yeah
05:41:17 <ehird> wut
05:41:21 <madbrain> just found the vga 28mhz clock bit
05:42:04 <ehird> argh, fucking i
05:42:08 <ehird> how do you make i span 7 chars
05:42:10 <ehird> pixels
05:42:14 <ehird> you don't, and you have a shitload of spacing
05:42:16 <ehird> stupid monospace
05:43:28 <madbrain> Eh, that's monospace
05:43:35 <ehird> yeah
05:43:38 <ehird> monospace is pretty silly.
05:43:51 <madbrain> although you can get it to 4 pixels wide with serif
05:43:58 <ehird> yeah
05:44:00 <madbrain> Monospace isn't silly :D
05:44:06 <ehird> sure is
05:44:35 <ehird> wait, how four pixels
05:44:36 <ehird> i have 3
06:02:04 <madbrain> most modes that would be neat flat out don't work
06:02:19 <ehird> aww
06:02:24 <ehird> modes as in text modes or
06:02:31 <madbrain> vga modes
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06:03:24 <ehird> which neat ones don't work?
06:04:09 <madbrain> 80x40 text mode 640x480 with 8x12 chars DOES work though :D
06:04:21 <ehird> ^__^
06:04:24 <ehird> The best mode there is!
06:04:38 <madbrain> the ones that aren't 320x or 360x (or 640x or 720x for 16 color and text modes)
06:04:52 <ehird> 80x48 might be cooler tho
06:05:01 <ehird> since you can have two unix terminals at once
06:05:07 <ehird> 80x50 for PC
06:05:11 <madbrain> 80x48 is really easy to hack
06:05:26 <ehird> hmm yeah, too easy
06:05:37 <ehird> just need to do 8x10
06:05:38 <madbrain> basically character height is free
06:05:50 <madbrain> because it has no effect on monitor timing
06:06:00 <ehird> 80x12 is better for text, anyway, so losing a few lines is no big deal
06:06:16 <madbrain> monitor timing is the stupid part where the monitor gets finnicky and refuses your mode
06:06:23 <ehird> heh
06:06:34 <ehird> madbrain: what's the lowest res and highest timing you ca n d o
06:06:35 <ehird> *can do
06:06:38 <ehird> *can do
06:07:34 <madbrain> VGA is not meant for modes other than x350, x400 and x480 although normally modes with less lines actually do work
06:07:54 <ehird> try :D
06:10:10 <madbrain> what works is modes with faster frame rates and more lines, except VGA has a fixed clock so none of these modes are practical outside SVGA
06:17:49 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur").
06:31:57 <ehird> "Of the 51 system calls present in Plan 9, we have written equivalents of the most essential ones, allowing simple executables like cat, sed, grep and even the Plan 9 C compiler, 8c to run unmodified on Linux." —Glendix
06:32:00 <ehird> maybe i could reuse the c compiler
06:32:01 <ehird> (nah)
06:32:04 <ehird> too standards incompliant
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06:37:57 <ehird> http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/technology/computers/7869585-man-using-trackball.php?id=7869585 hypnotic
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06:53:32 <ehird> "The way it was characterized politically, you had copyright, which is what the big companies use to lock everything up; you had copyleft, which is free software's way of making sure they can't lock it up; and then Berkeley had what we called 'copycenter', which is 'take it down to the copy center and make as many copies as you want.'" — Kirk McKusick, BSDCon 1999
06:55:01 <ehird> "Controversial decisions are often made differently from OpenBSD; for instance, there won't be any support for SMP in MirOS." let me know how that works out for you
07:02:54 -!- deschutron has left (?).
07:04:27 <ehird> ooh
07:04:32 <ehird> an alternative to llvm/clang? mayhaps
07:06:06 <ehird> http://pcc.zentus.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/os/linux/ccconfig.h?rev=1.16;content-type=text%2Fplain Repeat after me! Linux! Is! Not! ELF!
07:37:23 * ehird attempts to use CVS as a DVCS
07:37:24 <ehird> MWAHAHAHA
07:45:05 <ehird> That was surprisingly easy
07:48:39 <ehird> Ew, I even got pulling and pushing for free
07:48:48 <ehird> I feel dirty now (← DO NOT TAKE THESE TWO LINES OUT OF CONTEXT)
07:49:21 <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/11/new_thinkpad_1.jpg
07:49:23 <ehird> This image is photoshopped
07:49:24 <ehird> This image is photoshopped
07:49:25 <ehird> This image is photoshopped
07:49:27 <ehird> This image is photoshopped or a ripoff
07:49:36 <ehird> Oh god AnMaster, you are so lucky to have bought yours already
07:49:38 <ehird> ;_;
07:52:18 <ehird> waaaaaaaait, it looks 4:3
07:52:21 <ehird> must be a shop.
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08:09:35 <ehird> A C compiler that compiles in less than a minute. Refreshing.
08:14:30 <pikhq> Which?
08:17:52 <ehird> http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/, an update of the old pcc. BSD licensed.
08:17:58 <pikhq> Ah, PCC.
08:18:03 <ehird> Tiny, fast. Good platform support. Good GCC compatibility.
08:18:08 <ehird> BSDs are eyeing it to replace GCC eventually.
08:18:16 <ehird> It also compiles very quickly.
08:18:22 <ehird> (as in, compiles code you give to it)
08:18:23 <pikhq> A C compiler that doesn't have more abstraction layers than frontends. :P
08:18:28 <ehird> and the compiler itself compiles in less than a minute
08:18:30 <ehird> pikhq: :-D
08:18:43 * ehird makes it compile itself
08:19:33 <ehird> Unfortunately it doesn't have -Os yet
08:19:47 <ehird> but methinks this may be a contender for the main compiler
08:19:53 <ehird> Minimalist, well-coded, well-licensed, and fast.
08:20:11 <ehird> "YACC The `Yet Another C Compiler' implementation to use."
08:20:16 <ehird> a typo in autoconf?!
08:20:28 <pikhq> ... Man.
08:20:34 <ehird> :|
08:20:47 <pikhq> And I thought autoconf was a well-implemented bad idea, rather than a typo'd one. :P
08:20:56 <ehird> I sure hope someone changed that in some pcc file, because oh my word.
08:20:59 <ehird> ...Microwerks? SERIOUSLY?
08:21:01 <ehird> erm
08:21:03 <ehird> /usr/include//stdarg.h:8: error: "This header only supports __MWERKS__."
08:21:03 <ehird> ...Microwerks? SERIOUSLY?
08:21:13 <ehird> #if defined(__GNUC__)
08:21:14 <ehird> #include_next <stdarg.h>
08:21:14 <ehird> #elif defined(__MWERKS__)
08:21:14 <ehird> #include "mw_stdarg.h"
08:21:14 <ehird> #else
08:21:15 <ehird> #error "This header only supports __MWERKS__."
08:21:16 <ehird> #endif
08:21:21 <ehird> *facepalms*
08:21:50 <pikhq> *facepalm*
08:21:57 <ehird> Additionally, stdargs.h only works with gcc. Paste the following lines into /usr/local/lib/pcc/stdarg.h:
08:22:00 <ehird> Thanks pcc website
08:22:01 * ehird pastes
08:22:15 <ehird> It does the obvious:
08:22:17 <ehird> #ifndef _STDARG_H_
08:22:17 <ehird> #define _STDARG_H_
08:22:17 <ehird> #define va_list char *
08:22:17 <ehird> #define _VA_LIST
08:22:18 <ehird> #define va_start(ap, last) __builtin_stdarg_start((ap), last)
08:22:18 <ehird> #define va_arg(ap, type) __builtin_va_arg((ap), type)
08:22:20 <ehird> #define va_end(ap) __builtin_va_end((ap))
08:22:22 <ehird> #define va_copy(dest, src) __builtin_va_copy((dest), (src))
08:22:24 <ehird> #endif
08:22:26 <ehird> Oops, flood. Sorry.
08:22:46 <ehird> ld whines a lot about
08:22:47 <ehird> ld warning: can't find atom for N_GSYM stabs _stublist:G1 in compat.o
08:22:53 <ehird> and we get the error
08:22:56 <ehird> pcc -DGCC_COMPAT -DPCC_DEBUG -Dos_darwin -Dmach_i386 -D_ISOC99_SOURCE -I. -I. -I../.. -I../../mip -I../../arch/i386 -I../../os/darwin -g -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wshadow -Wsign-compare -Wtruncate -c -o pftn.o pftn.c
08:22:56 <ehird> pftn.c, line 1856: compiler error: Cannot generate code, node 0x839b70 op OREG
08:22:58 <ehird> But before that?
08:22:59 <ehird> Damn that flew.
08:23:35 <ehird> for (i = 0, base = tylnk.next; base; base = base->next, i++)
08:23:35 <ehird> a[i] = base->df;
08:23:41 <ehird> Odd place to fail (the second line, I think)
08:55:53 <ehird> Maybe it's in fact the previous line.
08:57:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/11/new_thinkpad_1.jpg <-- huh
08:57:40 <ehird> probably either photoshopped or a fake.
08:57:45 <ehird> (ripoff fake that is)
08:57:46 <AnMaster> ehird, probably
08:57:55 <ehird> especially note that stretched thinkpad logo≥
08:57:55 <puzzlet> what's about it
08:57:57 <ehird> *logo.
08:58:04 <ehird> puzzlet: it's an abomination against thinkpads
08:58:08 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed
08:58:10 <ehird> - chiclet keyboard (seriously!!)
08:58:11 <ehird> - white shell
08:58:17 <ehird> - ugh, just so ugly
08:58:25 <AnMaster> ehird, chiclet keyboard?
08:58:30 <AnMaster> what do you mean
08:58:31 <ehird> look carefully
08:58:33 <ehird> the keys are separated
08:58:35 <ehird> think macbook keyboard
08:58:37 <ehird> or sony vaio
08:58:42 <AnMaster> ehird, oh indeed
08:58:48 <ehird> also shallower than most laptop keyboards
08:58:58 <ehird> i'm fairly sure lenovo would never do this though
08:59:02 <ehird> unless to the sl line, which sucks anyway
08:59:23 <AnMaster> sl line?
08:59:34 <ehird> thinkpad SL.
08:59:41 <ehird> "consumer"; glossy, iirc 16:9 not sure though
08:59:45 <AnMaster> ouch
08:59:47 <ehird> internals are not actually thinkpad internals.
08:59:51 <ehird> (taken from ideapad or something)
09:00:00 * AnMaster googles ideapad
09:00:09 <ehird> "consumer" lenovo notebooks
09:00:13 <AnMaster> ah
09:00:50 <ehird> AnMaster: link me to latest cfunge code drop or bzr or whatever
09:00:55 <ehird> I'm gonna try and compile it with pcc :)
09:01:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't compile with pcc. at least didn't last I tried.
09:01:48 <ehird> new pcc or old.
09:01:51 <AnMaster> pcc failing at C99
09:01:55 <ehird> that's been improved.
09:01:55 <AnMaster> ehird, about half a year ago?
09:01:56 <ehird> massively
09:01:59 <AnMaster> ehird, ah
09:02:05 <AnMaster> well. sec for code
09:02:06 <ehird> http://www.bsdfund.org/projects/pcc/
09:02:10 <ehird> see "improved c99 functionality".
09:02:31 <AnMaster> bzr branch lp:cfunge/trunk
09:03:14 <ehird> "Support BSD with every purchase! Every time you use the BSD Fund Visa, a small donation is made to BSD Fund to support its programs."
09:03:14 <ehird> That requires some dedication...
09:03:54 <AnMaster> https://code.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/trunk
09:04:06 <AnMaster> maybe there is a "get a tarball" link there somewhere
09:04:09 <AnMaster> can't see one though
09:04:17 <ehird> Already branched.
09:04:29 <ehird> CMake seems happy with pcc so far, using ccmake.
09:04:49 <ehird> Default settings are fine to build a full cfunge, yep?
09:05:12 <AnMaster> ehird, should be. Not sure if cmake is likely to mess something up there
09:05:20 <AnMaster> with pcc I mean
09:05:21 <ehird> time make go
09:05:30 <ehird> [ 9%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/lib/genx/genx.c.o
09:05:34 <ehird> /Users/ehird/Downloads/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c, line 848: compiler error: Cannot generate code, node 0x81c490 op >>
09:05:38 <ehird> Eventful build, that.
09:05:42 <AnMaster> hah
09:05:47 <ehird> Note: This is probably due to me being on OS X.
09:05:53 <ehird> Want I should try it in my Arch VM?
09:05:54 <AnMaster> ehird, that file isn't even very C99ish
09:05:59 <ehird> See note about OS X.
09:06:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well. feel free to. I tried it under FreeBSD iirc
09:07:15 <ehird> "Command substitution was something else I added because that gives you very general mechanism to do string processing; it allows you to get strings back from commands and use them as the text of the script as if you had typed it directly. I think this was a new idea that I, at least, had not seen in scripting languages, except perhaps LISP."
09:07:15 <ehird> Fuck you Bourne, it was a really terrible idae.
09:07:16 <ehird> *idea
09:07:44 <AnMaster> ehird, why?
09:07:48 <AnMaster> if you mean ``
09:07:59 <AnMaster> (and later on $() )
09:08:01 <ehird> because you have to put quotes everywhere so that it ends up just like a regular programming language
09:08:02 <AnMaster> it is very useful
09:08:26 <AnMaster> okay good point
09:08:27 <ehird> all uses of it in non-quoted ways apart from to send as arguments (like python *foo) are harmful hacks because the shell is crippled
09:08:53 <ehird> "sudo pacman -S bzr cvs"
09:09:21 <AnMaster> cvs?
09:09:25 <ehird> for pcc.
09:09:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Also: "Moreover - although the v7 shell is written in C - Bourne took advantage of some macros[1] to give the C source code an ALGOL 68 flavor."
09:09:40 <ehird> Basically this guy is totally crazy.
09:09:54 <ehird> ("Nobody really knows what the Bourne shell's grammar is. Even examination of the source code is little help." —Tom Duff)
09:10:09 <AnMaster> hah
09:10:15 <ehird> http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/src/cmd/sh/main.c.html
09:10:21 <ehird> Feast your eyes upon the macroed horror!!!!
09:10:31 <ehird> IF (flags&prompt) ANDF standin->fstak==0 ANDF !eof
09:10:32 <ehird> THENIF mailnod.namval
09:10:32 <ehird> ANDF stat(mailnod.namval,&statb)>=0 ANDF statb.st_size
09:10:32 <ehird> ANDF (statb.st_mtime != mailtime)
09:10:32 <ehird> ANDF mailtime
09:10:33 <ehird> THENprs(mailmsg)
09:10:34 <ehird> FI
09:11:06 <AnMaster> heh
09:11:30 <ehird> Sweet, pcc supports pdp11.
09:11:30 <AnMaster> UFD output = 2;
09:11:30 <AnMaster> LOCAL BOOL beenhere = FALSE;
09:11:31 <AnMaster> huh
09:11:43 <ehird> Also pdp10.
09:12:15 <AnMaster> ehird, but ksh isn't this bad
09:12:19 <AnMaster> afaik?
09:12:26 <ehird> pdksh probably isn't so bad.
09:12:37 <ehird> I'm still erring on the side of rc for the shell
09:12:56 <AnMaster> ehird, who was that "Tom Duff" you mentioned (invokes aisness)
09:13:10 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Duff. he also has an account on our wiki, and that picture is horrible
09:13:31 <ehird> AnMaster: duff device
09:13:33 <AnMaster> ah!
09:13:36 <AnMaster> that duff
09:13:43 <ehird> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/2nd_edition/papers/gfx/pjw.ps.17761.gif
09:13:46 <ehird> much better picture :-P
09:13:58 <ehird> wait, that's "pjw"
09:14:09 <AnMaster> wrong person
09:14:10 <AnMaster> ?
09:14:13 <ehird> yeah
09:14:57 <ehird> Hmm, pcc doesn't do C++.
09:15:07 <AnMaster> ehird, not an issue is it?
09:15:11 <AnMaster> just use clang
09:15:17 <AnMaster> when it becomes stable for c++
09:15:22 <ehird> It can do WebKit.
09:15:26 <ehird> Linking clangged WebKit with pcc'd surf, though?
09:15:29 <ehird> Sounds risky.
09:15:39 <AnMaster> ehird, why not use clang for everything?
09:15:47 <AnMaster> well, apart from kernel
09:15:48 <ehird> pcc is simpler, faster.
09:15:52 <AnMaster> that isn't supported yet iirc
09:16:25 * ehird is considering purchasing a trackball
09:16:42 <ehird> it's just... i think i've retarded my thumbs using a mouse for so lnog
09:16:45 <ehird> *long
09:16:46 <ehird> seriously
09:16:53 <ehird> emulating trackball motion is uncomfortable
09:17:25 * ehird make clean, reconfigure w—
09:17:29 <ehird> oh, I forgot to compile the libraries first
09:17:37 <ehird> pcc-libs go go go
09:18:06 <AnMaster> ehird, hah
09:19:06 <ehird> Can too create executables!
09:19:25 <ehird> Oh.
09:19:31 <ehird> Would help if pcc was in my path, ehehehehe...
09:19:37 <ehird> Oops, turned into MKRY there.
09:20:17 <ehird> AnMaster: have you ever used a trackball?
09:20:33 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. found it quite awkward. Only very temporarily
09:20:41 <AnMaster> when helping someone having one with a computer issue.
09:20:43 <AnMaster> some years ago
09:20:43 <ehird> Thumb or finger?
09:20:51 <ehird> i.e. trackball in middle or to the side
09:20:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the ball was on the side
09:21:22 <ehird> Uncomfortable just after your thumb (bottom of your hand), would you say? That's what I'm getting when attempting it in thin air
09:21:30 <ehird> The lifting up motion, so to speak.
09:21:37 <ehird> Woot, pcc compiles itself.
09:21:38 <AnMaster> ehird, The fact that it was a left hand edition didn't help
09:21:44 <ehird> oh.
09:21:46 <ehird> Well that'd do it.
09:21:59 <ehird> Aaaand pcc is replaced by a pcc compiled by itself YO DAWG
09:22:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually use mouse quite well with either hand
09:22:29 * AnMaster has a symetric mouse for that reason
09:25:02 <AnMaster> ehird, any luck with cfunge?
09:25:05 <ehird> pcc cannot compile a simple test program, sweet
09:25:14 <ehird> "ld: cannot find -lc"
09:25:22 <ehird> wat.
09:25:30 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
09:25:34 <AnMaster> that would be libc
09:25:39 <ehird> i gathered
09:25:54 <ehird> /lib/libc.so.6 exists.
09:28:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well then. I can't help you at all
09:28:10 <AnMaster> no clue with pcc
09:28:19 <ehird> It's ld, not pcc.
09:29:17 <AnMaster> ehird, does gcc work?
09:29:30 <ehird> Hm; no.
09:29:37 <ehird> base-devel is all you need in arch, right?
09:29:37 <AnMaster> well then
09:30:01 <AnMaster> ehird, uh. maybe. not 100% sure. I know it works on my arch system for sure
09:30:07 <AnMaster> but it was so long ago I set it up
09:30:43 * ehird upgrades glibc
09:30:59 <ehird> Aaaand it works
09:31:13 <ehird> Nope.
09:31:17 <ehird> Not with pcc it doesn't.
09:32:15 <AnMaster> wait if gcc didn't work. How comes you could compile pcc at all?
09:32:29 <ehird> I don't know, don't ask me.
09:32:41 <AnMaster> fair enough
09:32:56 <ehird> Maybe only pcc is adding -lc, and I forgot to rm -rf before ccmaking without CC=pcc.
09:32:58 <ehird> So it used pcc again.
09:33:03 <ehird> But pcc could compile pcc.
09:33:06 <ehird> So cmake is fucking up.
09:33:30 <AnMaster> ehird, possible. Or pcc is having issues with one of the cmake tests
09:33:38 <ehird> No.
09:33:40 <AnMaster> ehird, check if cmake works with gcc for cfunge
09:33:40 <ehird> It is ld.
09:33:46 <ehird> "-lc" is wrong, whyever it's being added.
09:33:50 <ehird> I did. It does.
09:33:53 <ehird> or at least
09:33:55 <ehird> it starts configuring
09:33:57 <ehird> properly
09:34:09 <AnMaster> well then. if it passes the point where cmake fails pcc?
09:34:12 <AnMaster> hm
09:34:59 <AnMaster> ehird, just that I know cfunge breaks some older cmake 2.6 versions. IIRC the interval [2.6, 2.6.3)
09:35:12 <ehird> 2.6-patch 4
09:35:17 <ehird> Is that 2.6.4?
09:35:26 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah same thing. Just me being lazy
09:35:43 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it breaks it by throwing a syntax error during the configure thing
09:35:52 <AnMaster> on the cmake moduls
09:35:58 <AnMaster> modules*
09:37:07 <ehird> Hmm.
09:37:29 <ehird> There's also /usr/lib/libc.so
09:37:33 <AnMaster> huh
09:37:42 <AnMaster> ehird, run file on it
09:37:48 <AnMaster> because I have a vague idea
09:37:56 <ehird> ASCII C program text?!
09:38:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ah a linker script
09:38:05 <ehird> oh
09:38:07 <ehird> it's a gnu ld script
09:38:08 <ehird> heh
09:38:12 <ehird> But my ld is gnu...
09:38:24 <ehird> Anyway, won't it use /lib/libc.so.6?
09:38:28 <ehird> instead of that.
09:38:32 <AnMaster> ehird, no fucking clue
09:38:38 <AnMaster> it should by that linker script
09:38:47 <AnMaster> Use the shared library, but some functions are only in
09:38:47 <AnMaster> the static library, so try that secondarily. */
09:38:47 <AnMaster> OUTPUT_FORMAT(elf64-x86-64)
09:38:47 <AnMaster> GROUP ( /lib64/libc.so.6 /usr/lib64/libc_nonshared.a AS_NEEDED ( /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 ) )
09:38:49 <AnMaster> err
09:38:52 <AnMaster> comment fail
09:38:54 <AnMaster> first line was:
09:38:56 <ehird> yeah, that's what i have too
09:38:57 <AnMaster> /* GNU ld script
09:39:02 <AnMaster> ehird, that is on gentoo btw
09:39:37 <AnMaster> but it should be similar. maybe some diff in the /lib64 bit depending on how exactly the multilib stuff is done
09:39:51 <AnMaster> (or if it is 32-bit)
09:39:59 <ehird> Ohh, of course.
09:40:02 <ehird> ENABLE_64BIT is on.
09:40:15 <AnMaster> ehird, that only affects size of funge cells
09:40:17 <ehird> I'll look in the retarded 64 directories — hey, another problem my distro doesn't have! :P
09:40:24